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Talk:Amon Göth

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Göth name changed
I'm not sure about the spelling of the name. Even German sources spell "Goeth", but his daughter is spelled "Göth", so I'll leave this at "Amon Goeth" for now. djmutex 13:04 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Interesting that the last name was changed. I have always used the proper German pronunciation when writing about Amon Leopold Göth for the last 14 years.  But in English, it is spelled Goeth.  So I assume that this change will remain as is.~Folklore777 08:39 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * this is the ENGLISH language section of wikipedia and english-speakers generally don't use umlauts and don't have ready access to them on their keyboards. if we rule that all names should be spelled the way the original subjects would have written them, then we'd need to put Stalin under Сталин, Mao Zedong under 毛泽东, and Nehru under नेहरू --but these also don't lend themselves to english language-based search-typing.Cramyourspam (talk) 17:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Appears to be an issue from over a year ago. I don't think anyone is still protesting it. -OberRanks (talk) 20:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Now the spelling in the article is mixed, so everyone should be happy. 2A02:AA1:164B:F6E4:8584:5CC9:115A:674 (talk) 18:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have made it "Göth" throughout, which matches de.wiki. — Diannaa (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Image is wrong
The Picture as of 9/24/12 is of Bruno Gesche not Goeth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.236.234.132 (talk) 14:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Image Describ
I've changed the description of the Image:Gothwrifle.jpg to "Amon Göth on the balcony of his house at Plaszow in the summer of 1943" The previous description was "Amon Göth during sniper practice at Plaszow in the summer of 1943" and in the article the shooting practice is mentioned as sniping Jews from the balcony of his house depicted in the movie Schindler's List. However, Internet Movie Database says that "Amon Goeth did not shoot random prisoners from the balcony of his house. His house still stands, and the location of the camp is still known. The camp is on the other side of a hill, so Goeth could not have seen any prisoners from his balcony. However, Goeth did shoot prisoners at random from the top of the hill, and he did parade around his balcony with a rifle." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108052/goofs Jogers

 * Here's an article from the London Times dated January 27, 2005 that states that Goeth did shoot people from his balcony. Also the quote you reference stating otherwise does not appear on the page you have linked.--198.93.113.49 17:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * With all due respect it sounds like journalistic license in the article you cite: "Before breakfast he would stride on to the balcony of his villa overlooking Plaszow camp and shoot Jewish workers at random with his hunting rifle. Then he would return to bed to join his mistress — Frau Goeth’s mother.…"—Your post makes it sound like some kind of further research or evidence was uncovered (at least that was how I read it). (If there's one thing I've learned is that you should *not* get historical facts from journalists, who often do only the most cursory background searches before writing an article to meet editorial deadlines and have no personal knowledge of the subject.) Historian932 (talk) 00:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Place names
The English name of the city is Cracow, and the article seems to be in English. (The German name is Krakau.) Just like Warsaw, Moscow, etc., Poland (and not Polska) in English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.159.190 (talk) 08:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I was there last year and it was spelled Krakow in my guidebook (and everywhere else in English) Historian932 (talk) 00:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Other crimes
From the article:
 * although this grim portrayal (where, for shooting practice, he sniped Jews from the balcony of his house) showed only a subset of his crimes.

What were his other crimes? The article points out the Schindler's List fails to deal with them, but the article doesn't describe them either.--198.93.113.49 17:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Other Crimes
The article does fail to elucidate on "other crimes" but the indictment against Goeth by the Supreme National Tribunal of Poland in 1946 was crystal clear on what these crimes were:

"(1) The accused as commandant of the forced labour camp at Plaszow (Cracow) from 11th February, 1943, till 13th September, 1944, caused the death of about 8,000 inmates by ordering a large number of them to be exterminated.

(2) As a SS-Sturmführer the accused carried out on behalf of SS-Sturmbannführer Willi Haase the final closing down of the Cracow ghetto. This liquidation action which began on 13th March, 1943, deprived of freedom about 10,000 people who had been interned in the camp of Plaszow, and caused the death of about 2,000.

(3) As a SS-Hauptsturmführer the accused carried out on 3rd September, 1943, the closing down of the Tarnow ghetto. As a result of this action an unknown number of people perished, having been killed on the spot in Tarnow ; others died through asphyxiation during transport by rail or were exterminated in other camps, in particular at Auschwitz.

(4) Between September, 1943, and 3rd February, 1944, the accused closed down the forced labour camp at Szebnie near Jaslo by ordering the inmates to be murdered on the spot or deported to other camps, thus causing the death of several thousand persons.

(5) Simultaneously with the activities described under (1) to (4) the accused deprived the inmates of valuables, gold and money deposited by them, and appropriated those things. He also stole clothing, furniture and other movable property belonging to displaced or interned people, and sent them to Germany. The value of stolen goods and in particular of valuables reached many million zloties at the rate of exchange in force at the time. For those acts the accused was arrested by the German authorities on 13th September, 1944, but he was not brought before any German court. He was later extradited to Poland by the Allied authorities in Germany."

War Crimes
We have a user who is removing Amon Goth from the Nazi war criminals category, stating he was never convicted and therefore should not be listed. Amon Goth was convicted in 1946 of war crimes and crimes against humanity and sentenced to death. He was executed shortly thereafter. It is not POV that Goth was a war criminal, it is documented legal fact. -Husnock 13:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You should add that he was "convicted" after a show trial in Communist Poland. So how credible is such a conviction, anyway?! With your logic one also should list those Germans that were executed for murdering Poles for Katyn as "war criminals".

Ich stimme überein. 147.153.251.188Babsi147.153.251.188 22:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)16.00 Uhr 23.August 2006 (Mnt)

This does illustrate some of the complexities. In this particular case, he was both convicted and is nearly universally agreed to be guilty. Some of the others convicted by the Soviet-influenced Polish authorities are more disputed. In any case, the article currently nicely sidesteps the issue by giving a more specific and undisputable category, Category:Executed Nazi concentration camp personnel. --Delirium 03:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, there were no Germans executed for murdering Poles in Katyn. There are no serious doubts if sentences against German war criminals in Poland were credible. In 1946 there lived a great number of eyewitnesses and such persons, like Goeth or Hoess were universally known for their personal cruelty. Unfair show trials in Poland were directed against Poles - alleged spies, not against German war criminals. Moreover, in 1946 the country was still quite normal, stalinist repressions started in late 1940s. Pibwl ←« 21:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

In the second pararaph he is said to be convicted of killing tens of thousand animals, but later it is said to be people, was this a biased edit?74.104.100.174 (talk) 19:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Birthdate
Goeth's birthdate has been listed as Nov. 12 for over two years now, but this was a swap of the month and day numbers, according to SS records:

The Camp Men, French L. MacLean, 1999, Schiffer Publishing, Ltd., ISBN 0-7643-0636-7

NAME: Göth (Goeth), Ammon

NATIONAL ARCHIVE FILE: A3343 SSO-020A

BIRTHDAY: 11 December 1908

BIRTHPLACE: Vienna, Austria

RANK: SS-Hauptsturmführer

SS NUMBER: 43673

NSDAP NUMBER: 510764

MARITAL STATUS: Married

RELIGION: Catholic

HIGHEST DECORATION: None Listed

WAFFEN-SS: No

NOTE: Kommandant at Plaszow; member of Operation Reinhard, Lublin 1942.

EXECUTED: 13 September 1946

CAMP SERVICE: Plaszow. 1943-1944

JamieMcCarthy 15:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * See "Name and birthdate issues" below, Jamie. --  JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Execution
I've just watched the Isabelle Clarke's documentary La Traque des Nazis (The hunt for nazis); it includes footage of Amon Göth's execution. Two elements were noticeable:

-He had his arms tied behind his back and couldn't do the nazi salute;

-The execution butched the execution twice by miscalculating the length of the rope. Amon Göth died on the third try.

Following this evidence, I have thus deleted the mention of his performing the nazi salute at his execution. Scotchorama 22:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Symbol unrelated.svg Wrong attribution. Goeth's hanging was never filmed. — Poeticbent talk 18:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Name and birthdate issues
We call the article "Amon Göth", then start the lead para with: "Amon Leopold Göeth (or Goeth) ..." – with no mention of Göth. This seems to be a confusion. The letter –ö- is often written as –oe-, but never as –öe-. His legal name was Göth, and it's sometimes written as Goeth. No other versions are correct. I’ve made the changes.

Re the birthday: Jamie McCarthy’s post from February 2007 – which seems to have been totally ignored - seems to be on the money. Other websites also say it was 11 December, not 12 November. I’ll make that change too. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

daughter
" 2002, an interview book with Göth's daughter, Monika, was published in Germany under the name Ich muß doch meinen Vater lieben, oder? (But I must love my father, mustn't I?). For the first time, Göth's daughter spoke of her mother, who unconditionally glorified her father until faced with his role in the Holocaust, and had committed suicide after giving an interview in the 1980s.[3]"

This week I saw a moving documentary on arte where Monika (Göth's daughter) meets one of his victims (Helena, who was a slave worker at Göth's household) here's the link: http://www.arte.tv/fr/semaine/244,broadcastingNum=893049,day=5,week=35,year=2008.html (french), http://www.arte.tv/de/woche/244,broadcastingNum=893049,day=5,week=35,year=2008.html (german)

A video with his execution
This site: [] has the fiction and real execution of Amon Göth.Agre22 (talk) 14:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)agre22
 * Symbol unrelated.svg Wrong attribution. Goeth's hanging was never filmed. — Poeticbent talk 18:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, in fact, it was. His filmed execution by hanging was shown in the 2006 documentary Inheritance. The first two attempts failed. The third killed him. ExRat (talk) 02:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Link to/information on interview given by former mistress
The article cites an interview by his former mistress after which she took her own life…I looked online but couldn't find a transcript or link to it…does anyone else have one? (that could be posted, obviously) Historian932 (talk) 01:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

his real execution
Amon Goth's real execution was brutal and probably slow and painful and maybe that needs to be put in the article. Statesboropow (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The only way to have that changed would be to provide a reliable source. JFW | T@lk  23:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

i had the video of it, but its been removed. Statesboropow (talk) 18:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Symbol unrelated.svg Wrong attribution. Goeth's hanging was never filmed. — Poeticbent talk 18:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, in fact, it was. His filmed execution by hanging was shown in the 2006 documentary Inheritance. The first two attempts failed. The third killed him. ExRat (talk) 02:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Before I add the IPA, can anyone confirm whether the ö in Göth is pronounced [øː] (as in Öl) or [œ] (as in göttlich)? Lfh (talk) 14:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Change "Hanging" to "Strangulation"?
Having seen the film of his execution, it was clear he wasn't "hanged" in the traditional sense, and most likely died not of a result of a broken neck but of suffocation as the result of strangulation. Perhaps the article should be altered to reflect the actual cause of death? Just an idea. 137.183.232.24 (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Symbol unrelated.svg Wrong attribution. Goeth's hanging was never filmed. — Poeticbent talk 18:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, yes, in fact, it was. His filmed execution by hanging was shown in the 2006 documentary Inheritance. The first two attempts failed. The third killed him. The same footage can be seen courtesy of WFDIF Archive, Warsaw, beginning at the 3:15 mark on this YouTube video: Execution of Amon Goeth. ExRat (talk) 02:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know all the details, but several sources have attributed the widely circulated video of his hanging to actually being the execution of another person. An official in the German Polish occupation, I'm not sure which one, but it is not Goeth. -OberRanks (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

New Picture is Awesome
Let us all guard that picture and forever have it in this article. Pictures of Goeth in uniform are extremely rare. Not even his offical SS record kept by Germans have him wearing a uniform. OUTSTANDING JOB to whoever found that photo! -OberRanks (talk) 01:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Military Photo
For one reason or another, someone felt the need to delete Amon Göth's military photo with no reason given. That photo has rights on Wiki commons and has it's copyrighted status clearly listed on the profile. I have an original copy so I was able to replace it. Please, if there is any misunderstanding or concern, before deciding to just delete the image, please put a reason on the discussion page first. ~ Folklore777 (talk) 04:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I was very astonished that the photo got taken down. The "delete vote" consisted of the nominator posting the notice, one person commenting, and then the photo deleted without any further discussion.  Clearly seems like a "rush job" to stop others involved in this article from investigating the photo and clarifying its copyright status. -OberRanks (talk) 15:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
The picture of Göth in his SS uniform appears to have been deleted without any discussion. The reason was "non-free image replaceable". To my knowledge, this was a very rare picture that was in fact NOT replaceable. Can we get the photo back? -OberRanks (talk) 12:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I never saw a deletion notice posted. There should have been a discussion as to it, before removal. I see above where it went through that process before and was put back up. Kierzek (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * An un-delete discussion on the deletion review board may be in order. I do not think I should be the one to post it, as I have had dealings with the administrator who deleted the image in the past and a protest of a deletion may appear as possible "Sour grapes". -OberRanks (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Moved his "mug shot" to main. I have had no luck with photo discussions. Kierzek (talk) 15:59, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for your support on the deletion Amon Leopold Göth's military photo from 1943. I received a personal note from a contributor of Wikipedia stating he was going to delete it a few days ago because it was a non-free media use photo.  Please buy me some time, I have an original copy of the photo, I will get the proper licensing and have it back up as soon as possible. ~   Folklore777 (talk) 23:14, 16 September, 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds great. Unfortunately, the deletion wasn't discussed here- perhaps we could have avoided the deletion to begin with. -OberRanks (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you OberRanks so much for the support. I think there should have been a discussion posted before the deletion too.  I do however have another military photo of Göth in 1941 from the Schutzstaffel that I do have the proper licensing for, but it is not in the same pristine condition as the other one I had posted.  Would you like me to try to post the 1941 photo?  I would love to hear opinions. ~ Folklore777 (talk) 17:30, 17 September, 2011 (UTC)

Pictures of him in SS uniform are very rare. We would be lucky to have such a photo posted. -OberRanks (talk) 21:53, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Kierzek (talk) 01:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The photo is posted. Hopefully there won't be any other issues.  I will watch the page closely to make sure the picture meets the proper requirements. ~ Folklore777 (talk) 23:30, 17 September, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very impressive. A bit grainy around the eyes, but a rare find to be sure. -OberRanks (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I do apologize for the condition of the picture, but the original photo I have of Göth in Lublin is just too damaged for me to post. This version is touched up and more visible. I hope this will do until I can get proper licensing for the 1943 photo. ~ Folklore777 (talk) 12:21, 18 September, 2011 (UTC)

Göth Military photo
Because of certain administrators on Wikimedia commons targeting the Göth photos, both of the Military photos I had posted are being deleted. Even though I have the proper licensing on these images, they are still an issue. Because this is the third time this has happened, I'm done posting the Military images. I apologize. I'm sorry, I can't continue to fight Martin H. on Wikimedia commons, for he is the one who keeps deleting the image, at least he is one responsible the last couple times. Apparently, because there is an unknown author to the Göth image, it can't be used on Wiki commons until 2014.~ Folklore777 (talk) 13:23, 28 December, 2011 (UTC)
 * I saved the photo and it will appear in a book I'm writing, if that makes you feel better. -OberRanks (talk) 19:11, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I added the images, which according to their descriptors are now public domain, so the editor who deleted them is clearly wrong. 86.155.210.225 (talk) 08:23, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The description material is incorrect, as the copyright for the image is owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The photo was taken by Raimund Titsch and sold to Leopold Pfefferberg in the 1960s. Pfefferberg donated the collection to the USHMM in the 1960s, and they are now the copyright holders. Another user claims that material was released unter OTRS ticket 2007071910012533, but an OTRS team member was unable to confirm that that was so. Since this is now a Good Article, we have to leave the image out, since it is not properly licensed. Sorry, -- Diannaa (talk) 14:07, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That "another user" mentioned by is called . I do not actually "claim" anything... Long before Diannaa, I already contacted the OTRS team about this. Here's what I was told by  (quote in part):
 * I have looked at the ticket in question; yes, permission was granted for all the content added by USHMMwestheim to be reused, in whole or in part, on Wikipedia--in fact, it was originally created especially for this purpose. Please see for yourself. — Poeticbent talk 17:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What it says is that all content added to Wikipedia by User:USHMMwestheim has been released to Wikipedia under license. It does not say that the entire contents of the USHMM website have been released to Wikipedia under license. You seem to have taken offense at my use of the word "claim", and for that I apologise. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * did not reveal the exact wording of the ticket; however, we do have a wp:good faith policy/guideline here allowing for a bit more leeway. Copyrights are my pet-peeve, and yet, I have no clue if the law can be twisted around so much as to suit only a sliver of usage by one volunteer. Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 19:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The relevant portion of the email states, "He had authority to copy this content and license it under the Wikimedia conditions" (with "this content" referring only to his specific Wikipedia contributions, not the entire website contents), so Diannaa seems to be correct, unless there was a separate email thread which I was unable to locate that said something to the contrary.  Theopolisme ( talk )  20:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not how copyright law works. Either the material is released, or it is not released. The USHMM people have no clue what they're doing, but we need to know better. A secret letter to us with a Jack O'Lantern for everybody else is not good enough for any GDFL claim. <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:darkblue;">Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 21:33, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Thats all fine, I think to remove it. Another issue, somewhere in the re-write it got cut out that Goth had claimed promotion to Sturmbannfuhrer at the time of his capture by the Americans (not in his service record and not accepted as valid). Rudolf Hoss also backed up the claim in later testimony and mentions Goth's claim in his autobiography. This should be re-added to the article, maybe down in the rank history. -OberRanks (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember that; I was unable to find a source for it so I took it out. Do you have access to the Hoss autobiography? Perhaps we could source it from that. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Its in the middle or so of this book. Hoess talks about Goeth being an "SS-Major" and that record keeping was very bad at the end of the war.  I can get a page # if I have time to review my copy. -OberRanks (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Issue of mental illness
I had never heard of this before, I wonder what specific diagnosis he was given by the SS doctor (were there SS psychiatrists?). Also, did the Allies test him for mental illness, and if they did, what were their results? Did they have a policy on executing mentally ill war criminals? (Keep in mind not all war criminals were mentally ill by definition, that is a bogus moralistic judgment in my opinion, Eichmann for example was found sane by his Israeli psychiatrist.) Historian932 (talk) 00:33, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The few source documents I've seen about this indicate he had some kind of a nervous breakdown and was sent to a sanitarium. Interestingly enough, Himmler did something similar, abandoning his Army Group Command and checking himself into some kind of convalescent home in 1945. -OberRanks (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Kalder
The full paragraph in German from Sachslehner (2008) available in Google Books only as a short snippet reads as follows. "Oskar Schindler ist auch daran Schuld, dass Göth irgendwann in diesem Frühjahr 1943 seine große Liebe Ruth Irene Kalder kennen lernt. Er hat den Direktor der „Emalia" zum Abendessen eingeladen und Schindler bringt sie als Begleiterin mit in das „Rote Haus". Ruth Irene Kalder, geboren 1918, stammt aus dem oberschlesischen Gleiwitz (Gliwice). Ihr Vater, Parteimitglied, ist Besitzer einer Fahrschule. Sie hat in Essen eine Schauspielschule besucht und ein Diplom als Kosmetikerin erworben, während des Kriegs hat es sie nach Krakau verschlagen, wo sie als Sekretärin für die Wehrmacht arbeitet. Ihr geht der Ruf voraus, dass sie kleinen ..." Kalder took some lessons in acting, but obtained a diploma of a beautician. — <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:darkblue;">Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 18:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The man's name should be spelled as he spelled it which is Göth
If he used an umlaut than Wikipedia should spell it with an umlaut. And if not, not. {71.22.47.232 (talk) 11:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)}

 * this is the ENGLISH language section of wikipedia and english-speakers generally don't use umlauts and don't have ready access to them on their keyboards. if we rule that all names should be spelled the way the original subjects would have written them, then we'd need to put Stalin under Сталин, Mao Zedong under 毛泽东, and Nehru under नेहरू --but these also don't lend themselves to english language-based search-typing. Cramyourspam (talk) 15:16, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, you're mixing up two different things. It's a big difference if the name in its original language is written in a totally different script like Chinese or Cyrillic or if, like in this case, Latin letters with additions are used. We have many names here that use varios special letters from the Latin alphabet and against which no one has protested. I think the spelling of the name should be returned to Göth. See Nicolae Ceaușescu or Franz König or Slobodan Milošević. Yes, it's the Englisch language section of the Wikipedia but that shouldn't prevent us from spelling names CORRECTLY just because someone does not like umlauts. I think the article name should be reverted to Amon Göth because that's the right spelling. --Maxl (talk) 14:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:NAME is the guiding principal. This was also discussed at length before with consensus to keep it as "Goeth". -OberRanks (talk) 16:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I see no consensus so far since there was no real discussion about how to spell this name. It is still disputed, so there is no consensus. Anyway, as I said, most non-English names with special letters derived from the Latin alphabet are spelled that way in the Wikipedia. Maybe you'd better take into regard peoples's arguments instead of citing a non-extant consensus. --Maxl (talk) 16:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I would agree that this page shows no current binding consensus. No reason not to revisit. There seems to be two different issues - the spelling and the use of the umlaut. Most WP biogs that I have seen go for accuracy in the subject's name, including diacritics. The above examples of Nicolae Ceaușescu or Franz König or Slobodan Milošević support this. Also Paco Peña, Adolfo Müller-Ury and Czesław Miłosz. The markings can be copied and pasted from the rest of the article if the keyboard doesn't have it (as I just did). As to spelling, there are many academic texts that use both forms. Goeth and Göth (double hits for 'Goeth', which seems a bit odd). I'd see it's worth talking it through (civilly). Span (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * All German umlaut names are spelled as in German on en.wp. If German sources have Göth, then title should be Göth. Certainly WP:FULLNAME requires Göth in lead. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:20, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Totally agree, it should be Göth. Otherwise Hermann Göring article should also be changed, which makes no sense. The only exception I have run into is the ß (eszett) MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:52, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no objections. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead with the move. — Diannaa (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

In-Line Article Link Deletion Notice
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Footnotes / Apparatus for this Article
Could someone explain to me what is going on with the footnotes of this article? There are three sections: Notes, Citations, and References, all of which follow different formats. The "References" section looks very comprehensive, but it is a bulleted rather than numbered list. Have the footnotes in this section become dissociated from the citations in the body of the text? Amos Bitzan (talk) 15:11, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The "Citations" section lists a short-form Harvard-style citation for each cite, and each of these is a clickable link to a work in the "References" section, which lists all the sources that were used to prepare this article. This system works great for articles that use the same sources to support many points in the article. Please see the documentation at Template:Sfn for more information. The "Notes" section is for explanatory notes; i.e. material that is a little off-topic for the flow of the article but should be included anyways. This article has one such note. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Adam Sztab
Helen Jonas-Rosenzweig has a completely different cause of the death of Adam Sztab to that which we depict in this article. I do not see how the two explanations can be reconciled. Can anyone resolve this contradiction? - Sitush (talk) 10:57, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Crowe says (page 257): "According to Stella Muller-Madej, Goth murdered another of his dog handlers, Adam Sztab, because the commandant thought the dogs liked Sztab more than his owner." Either or both could be true. I've removed the material, at least for now — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:03, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

"Goeth" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Goeth. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 28 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

"Göth" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Göth. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 28 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 April 2022
Second paragraph under Płaszów:"About 10,000 were sent to Plaszow to be slave labourers", change Plaszow to Płaszów. Aka charlos (talk) 15:00, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for the suggestion.— Diannaa (talk) 15:59, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 August 2022
Change "Kalder suffered of emphysema" to "Kalder suffered from emphysema" Wolfita (talk) 02:49, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for the suggestion. — Diannaa (talk) 12:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Political association
As a member of the Nazi party and movement, he was not a right wing radical as stated in the article. Nazism is a socialist left political party, not a right leaning party. It's right in their name: National Socialist German Workers' Party. These are all descripters of a left leaning political philosophy and practice. At minimum, you should remove the phrase 'right wing radical' as it is neither accurate nor needed. Just state he was interested in the philosophies and practices of the Nazi party. Vanislescotty (talk) 17:10, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
 * You are incorrect. Socialist left-leaning elements of the party were eliminated in the Night of the Long Knives and the party was extreme right-wing from that point forward. — Diannaa (talk) 01:45, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2023
i found typo 1p2u3oiajdijaoijd (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. <b style="background:linear-gradient(90deg, #8B008B 0%, #191970 100%);color:white;"> BelowTheSun </b> (T•C) 21:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Amon Göth


text:
Jobriath

Bruce Wayne Campbell (December 14, 1946 – August 3, 1983), known by his stage name Jobriath, was an American rock musician and actor. He was the first openly gay rock musician to be signed to a major record label and one of the first internationally famous musicians to die of AIDS.

Early life and career
Born Bruce Wayne Campbell in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, Jobriath showed early musical talent for playing the piano, and soon played organ in his local church. It was during this time his talents led him to being introduced to Eugene Ormandy as a child prodigy. While he was a high school student, he became further interested in classical music, and favored composers such as Sergei Prokofiev. He wrote the first two movements of his first symphony by his senior year in high school, but for reasons unknown chose not to complete it.

After graduating from Upper Merion High School (in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania) in 1964, Jobriath took an interest in folk music, partly inspired by seeing Peter, Paul and Mary in concert several times. He briefly formed a folk group with the help of his music teacher who arranged for identical twins Marty and Grace to join him. As a trio they named themselves "The Last Three", and played several regional shows in the PA area before Marty and Grace departed for college. While Jobriath attended Temple University for one semester in the music program, he soon dropped out. He was drafted into the U.S. Army in the mid-1960s and went AWOL within months. Renaming himself Jobriath Salisbury, he relocated to Los Angeles.

Casting in Hair and early recordings with Pidgeon
After accompanying a friend to the audition for the musical Hair as a piano player, he impressed the producer and director with his singing and talents on the piano. He was soon cast by the director Tom O'Horgan into the leading role of Woof, a character implied to be gay. He appeared in the legendary West Coast production at the Aquarius Theater on Sunset Boulevard. Despite receiving positive reviews for his performances, he was fired from the production for "upstaging" the other actors. After leaving the production in 1969, he joined the folk-rock band Pidgeon, which was then signed to Decca Records, as their lead singer, pianist and guitarist. The band recorded a debut album originally titled First Flight From the Forest which was re-titled by their label as the self-titled Pidgeon, and—shortly after the album's release—the band released the single "Rubber Bricks" b/w "Prison Walls" before disbanding. Both were produced by Stan Farber. At this time he was traced by the Military Police and arrested, spending nearly six months in a military psychiatric hospital after suffering a breakdown. During this period he began writing the songs that would lead to his next musical incarnation.

Jerry Brandt, the hype and Jobriath Boone
In mid-December 1972, Jerry Brandt, Carly Simon's former manager, overheard a demo tape being played by Clive Davis at Columbia Records. Davis rejected the tape as "mad, unstructured and destructive to melody", but Brandt was quick to step in. Jobriath later remarked "that coming from a man who discovered both Patti Smith and Barry Manilow...so much for sanity and structure!" Brandt located Jobriath in California, where he was living in an unfurnished apartment and working as a prostitute. "In walked this beautiful creature dressed in white. I said, Why don't you come out to Malibu and hang out?" This became a feature of the mythology used to promote Jobriath, and helps to explain the acrimony that followed the dissolution of their professional and personal relationship.

Brandt signed Jobriath, now calling himself Jobriath Boone, to Elektra Records for a reported $500,000, in what was allegedly the most lucrative recording contract of its time. Jobriath was signed to a two-album deal. A huge marketing campaign and media blitz ensued, including full-page advertisements in Vogue, Penthouse, and Rolling Stone magazines, full-length posters on over 250 New York City buses and a huge 41' by 43' billboard in Times Square. All featured the forthcoming debut album sleeve design by noted photographer Shig Ikeda, which featured a nude Jobriath, made to resemble an ancient Roman statue. Plans were announced for a lavish three night live debut at the Paris Opera that December, at a cost of $200,000 and a subsequent tour of European opera houses. Jobriath informed the press that the show would feature him dressed as "King Kong being projected upwards on a mini Empire State Building. This will turn into a giant spurting penis and I will have transformed into Marlene Dietrich." Elektra, concerned about spiraling production costs, postponed the Paris Opera shows until February, later canceling them due to expense.

Amidst this barrage of promotion, the debut album Jobriath was released on June 15, 1973, garnering mostly positive reviews. Rolling Stone stated that Jobriath had "talent to burn", Cashbox called it "truly one of the most interesting albums of the year", and Record World hailed it as "brilliantly incisive", referring to Jobriath as "a true Renaissance man who will gain a tremendous following". Esquire disagreed, calling it "the hype of the year". The album was co-produced by Eddie Kramer and Jobriath, featuring string arrangements by Jobriath, recorded at Olympic Studios with the London Symphony Orchestra. Kramer described Jobriath in Mojo as "a romantic soul, really. He wanted orchestrations like old film music, though he knew nothing about scoring. So he bought a book on orchestration and within a week he'd come up with scores of a haunting quality". Peter Frampton is also credited on the album, though his contribution is unclear.

During this period, Brandt continued making extravagant statements such as "Elvis, the Beatles, and Jobriath" and declaring that both he and Jobriath had booked flights on Pan American's first passenger flight to the Moon. Meanwhile, Jobriath declared himself "rock's truest fairy", a comment that did little to increase his popularity at the time but has since confirmed his status as the first openly gay rock singer to be signed to a major record label.

Jobriath's debut public performance was made on television, when Brandt secured him an appearance on the popular show The Midnight Special. The costumes were designed by Jobriath and the choreography was by Joyce Trisler, of the Joffrey Ballet. Two songs were performed: "I'maman" and "Rock of Ages", the latter substituting for "Take Me I'm Yours" which was pulled after the producer objected to its overtly sado-masochistic theme. The long-awaited live performance finally came in July 1974 with two sold-out shows at New York's The Bottom Line club. Sales for the album, however, were poor, and it failed to secure a chart placing.

Six months after the release of the debut album, Creatures of the Street was released, again featuring Peter Frampton, as well as John Paul Jones of Led Zeppelin. The costumes were by Stephen Sprouse. The photography was by Gered Mankowitz. Compiled from the extensive sessions for its predecessor, it was launched without any fanfare or media promotion and failed commercially. A US tour followed, where Jobriath and his backing-band (called 'The Creatures') did several residencies around the US (in Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles & Memphis) during which recordings took place at local studios for a projected third album. Despite the tour having several well-attended shows and/or several sold-out nights, both Brandt and Elektra stopped financing the tour midway through. Despite this, Jobriath and the band completed the tour, continuing to bill Elektra for expenses. A final show, at the University of Alabama, ended in five encores and the fire department being summoned when the excited audience set off the alarm.

Cole Berlin, cabaret and The Chelsea Hotel
In January 1975, Jobriath announced his retirement from the music industry and moved into a pyramid-topped rooftop apartment at the Chelsea Hotel in New York City. He attempted to resume his acting career, and was invited to audition for the role of Al Pacino's lover in the film Dog Day Afternoon. According to keyboard player Hayden Wayne, Jobriath had the script for Dog Day Afternoon backstage at a concert at Nassau Coliseum, and claimed he did not want to do the film due to the character's wearing of a dress. Calling himself "Cole Berlin" (a play on both Cole Porter and Irving Berlin), he worked as a cabaret singer at a restaurant called the Covent Garden, as well as clubs and cabarets, augmenting his income with occasional prostitution. In a 1979 interview, he said the Jobriath persona had "committed suicide in a drug, alcohol and publicity overdose".

Death
By the time his 10-year contract with Brandt was finally up, Jobriath was sick with AIDS. He began to feel ill in late 1981 but still contributed Chelsea Hotel's 100th birthday celebrations in November 1982, and continued to perform cabaret until shortly before his death. He died at his residence at The Chelsea in 1983.

Legacy
In November 2004, long-time fan Morrissey oversaw Jobriath's first CD re-issue, a compilation called Lonely Planet Boy. It was produced by Eddie Kramer. Morrissey had previously attempted to secure Jobriath as a support act for the tour in support of his Your Arsenal album, having been unaware that the singer had died some years previously. Both Jobriath's original studio albums were officially reissued on CD in Japan in late 2007, remastered and issued in mini-vinyl replica sleeves. They were released in the U.S. in standard jewel-box packaging in 2008 by Collectors' Choice Music.

The group Balcony released a semi-tribute track entitled "Jobriath" as a free MP3 anonymously on the internet in 2000 that was later included on their second album Before Needs. He is referenced using his legal name by the indie-folk band Okkervil River on the final song of their 2008 album The Stand Ins, entitled "Bruce Wayne Campbell Interviewed on the Roof of the Chelsea Hotel, 1979". Def Leppard released a cover of "Heartbeat" on some versions of their 2006 album Yeah!. "Morning Starship" was sampled by hip-hop artist Ill Bill on the title track to his 2007 mixtape album Black Metal.

In 2023, American singer Adam Lambert included his version of I'm a Man on his album High Drama.

Filmmaker Kieran Turner (24 Nights) created a feature documentary about the late singer called Jobriath A.D. On March 28, 2012, English singer Marc Almond said of Jobriath on his retrospective, "For me, above all else, he was a sexual hero: truly the first gay pop star. How extreme that was to the US at the time. His outrageous appearances on the hallowed US rock show The Midnight Special prompted shock, bewilderment and disgust. Everyone hated Jobriath – even, and especially, gay people. He was embarrassingly effeminate in an era of leather and handlebar moustaches." On July 11, 2012, Ann Magnuson released an EP featuring four Jobriath songs and a spoken-word narrative. On October 29, 2013, Eschatone Records released three 1971 Jobriath tracks digitally and on 10" vinyl as the EP Amazing Dope Tales. On May 6, 2014, Eschatone Records released As the River Flows, a full-length album of never-before released Jobriath recordings from 1971 to 1972 on CD, limited edition vinyl and in digital format. On December 5, 2018, Morrissey released a statement that his next album, California Son, would open with a cover of Jobriath's "Morning Starship".

Studio albums

 * 1969 Pidgeon – Decca
 * 1973 Jobriath – Elektra
 * 1974 Creatures of the Street – Elektra

Compilations

 * 2004 Lonely Planet Boy – Attack / Sanctuary
 * 2014 As the River Flows – Eschatone
 * 2015 Popstar: The Lost Musical – Factory25

Singles

 * 1969 "Rubber Bricks" / "Prison Walls" (with Pidgeon) – Decca
 * 1974 "Take Me I'm Yours" / "Earthling" – Elektra
 * 1974 "I'maman" / "Rock of Ages" – Elektra / Barclay
 * 1974 "Liten Up" / "Ooh La La" – Elektra
 * 1974 "Street Corner Love" / "Rock of Ages" – Elektra
 * 1974 "Ooh La La" / "Gone Tomorrow" – Elektra
 * 2004 "I Love a Good Fight" + "Scumbag" – Attack / Sanctuary
 * 2013 "Amazing Dope Tales" + "As the River Flows" + "City Freak" – Eschatone

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Jobriath


text:
List of home computers

Home computers were a class of microcomputer that existed from 1977 to about 1995. During this time it made economic sense for manufacturers to make microcomputers aimed at the home user. By simplifying the machines, and making use of household items such as television sets and cassette recorders instead of dedicated computer peripherals, the home computer allowed the consumer to own a computer at a fraction of the price of computers oriented to small business. Today, the price of microcomputers has dropped to the point where there's no advantage to building a separate, incompatible series just for home users.

While many office-type personal computers were used in homes, in this list a "home computer" is a factory-assembled mass-marketed consumer product, usually at significantly lower cost than contemporary business computers. It would have an alphabetic keyboard and a multi-line alphanumeric display, the ability to run both games software as well as application software and user-written programs, and some removable mass storage device (such as cassette tape or floppy disk).

This list excludes smartphones, personal digital assistants, pocket computers, laptop computers, programmable calculators and pure video game consoles. Single-board development or evaluation boards, intended to demonstrate a microprocessor, are excluded since these were not marketed to general consumers.

Pioneering kit and assembled hobby microcomputers which generally required electronics skills to build or operate are listed separately, as are computers intended primarily for use in schools. A hobby-type computer often would have required significant expansion of memory and peripherals to make it useful for the usual role of a factory-made home computer. School computers usually had facilities to share expensive peripherals such as disk drives and printers, and often had provision for central administration.

Attributes
Attributes are as typically advertised by the original manufacturer. Popular machines inspired third-party sources for adapters, add-on processors, mass storage, and other peripherals.

"Processor" indicates the microprocessor chip that ran the system. A few home computers had multiple processors, generally used for input/output devices. Processor speeds were not a competitive point among home computer manufacturers, and typically the processor ran either at its maximum rated speed ( between 1 and 4 MHz for most processor types here), or at some fraction of the television color subcarrier signal, for economy of design. Since a crystal oscillator was necessary for stable color, it was often also used as the microprocessor clock source. Many processors were second-sourced, with different manufacturers making the same device under different part numbers. Variations of a basic part number might have been used to indicate minor variations in speed or transistor type, or might indicate fairly significant alterations to the prototype's capabilities. In the Eastern Bloc countries, manufacturers made functional duplicates of Western microprocessors under different part number series.

TV indicates the factory configuration produces composite video compatible with a home TV receiver. Some computers came with a built-in RF modulator to allow connection to the TV receiver antenna terminals; others output composite video for use with a free-standing monitor or external RF modulator. Still others had built-in or proprietary monitors. Often a composite video monitor (monochrome or color) would be substituted for the family TV. Some standard types of video controller ICs were popular, but see the very detailed List of home computers by video hardware for a discussion of video capabilities of different models. Memory and TV bandwidth restrictions meant that typical home computers had only a few color choices and perhaps 20 lines of 40 characters of text as an upper limit to their video capabilities. Where the same model was sold in countries using PAL or NTSC television standards, sometimes there would be minor variations in the speed of the processor, because NTSC and PAL use different frequencies for the color information and the crystal for the video system was often also used for the processor clock.

Base mass storage was whatever came in the basic configuration. Some machines had built-in cassette drives or optional external drives, others relied on the consumer to provide a cassette recorder. Cassette recorders had the primary virtue of being widely available as a consumer product at the time. Typically a home computer would generate audio tones to encode data, that could be stored on audio tape through a direct connection to the recorder. Re-loading the data required re-winding the tape. The home computer would contain some circuit such as a phase-locked loop to convert audio tones back into digital data. Since consumer cassette recorders were not made for remote control, the user would have to manually operate the recorder in response to prompts from the computer. Random access to data on a cassette was impossible, since the entire tape would have to be searched to retrieve any particular item. A few manufacturers integrated a cassette tape drive or cassette-like tape mechanism into the console, but these variants were made obsolete by the reduction in cost of floppy diskette drives.

Floppy disk drives were initially very costly compared to the system purchase price. Plug-in ROM cartridges containing game or application software were popular in earlier home computers since they were easier to use, faster, and more reliable than cassette tapes. Once diskette drives became available at low cost, cartridges declined in popularity since they were more expensive to manufacture than reproducing a diskette, and had comparatively small capacity compared to diskettes. A few cartridges contained battery-backed memory that allowed users to save data (for example, game high scores) between uses of the cartridge.

Typically there were several models or variants within a product line, especially to account for different international video standards and power supplies; see the linked articles for variants and consequences of variations. "Compatibility" indicates some measure of compatibility with a parent type, however, sometimes incompatibility existed even within a product family. A "clone" system has identical hardware and is functionally interchangeable with its prototype; a few clone systems relied on illicit copies of system ROMs to make them functional.

List of hobby, kit, or trainer computers
This type of microcomputer required significant electronics skills to assemble or operate. They were sometimes sold in kit form that required the user to insert and solder components in a printed circuit board. They may have had just blinking lights and toggle switches, or a hexadecimal display and a numeric keypad. While some units were possibly expandable to the "checkbook balancing/homework typing" stage, most were intended more for education on the use and application of microprocessors. See also Microprocessor development board, Single-board computer.

 * Altair 8800
 * Apple I and also Replica 1
 * Applix 1616
 * Compukit UK101
 * Dick Smith Super-80 Computer
 * Educ-8 non-microprocessor kit computer
 * Elektor Junior Computer
 * Elektor TV Games Computer
 * Ferguson Big Board
 * Galaksija, a build-it-yourself home computer that created a wave of enthusiasts
 * Heathkit H8 and relations
 * Heathkit H11
 * Heath ET-100 8088 trainer
 * Kenbak-1
 * KIM-1
 * LNW-80
 * MK14
 * Mark-8
 * Micro-Professor MPF-I
 * Nascom 1 and Nascom 2
 * Newbear 77-68
 * Processor Technology SOL 20
 * PSI Comp 80 (computer)
 * SCELBI
 * Sinclair ZX80 kit
 * Tangerine MICROTAN 65
 * TEC-1
 * Wave Mate Bullet
 * Z 1013

School computers
These were aimed at the class room, not the living room. Some types were popular in the centrally planned economies of eastern Europe where Western computers were scarce, or in the early days of computer education in Western schools. Popular home computers of the period were fitted with various types of network interfaces to allow sharing of files, large disk drives, and printers, and often allowed a teacher to interact with a student, supervise the system usage, and carry out administrative tasks from a host computer.

 * Acorn Archimedes (and derivatives)
 * Aster CT-80
 * BBC Micro
 * Commodore SuperPET/SP9000
 * Compis
 * IQ 151
 * LINK 480Z
 * Regency Systems R2C
 * Research Machines 380Z Industrial and school systems
 * Tiki 100
 * TIM-011
 * Unisys ICON
 * Chromebooks

Cardboard and demonstrator "computers"
Logic demonstrators illustrated some of the logical principles of computer circuits, but were incapable of automatic operation or non-trivial calculations. Some were literally cardboard, others used combinations of switches and lamps to show how logical operations worked. Some products demonstrated logical operations purely mechanically.

 * CARDboard Illustrative Aid to Computation cardboard computer logic demonstrator
 * Digi-Comp I, mechanical logic demonstrator
 * Digi-Comp II, mechanical logic using marbles
 * Geniac, non-electronic logic demonstrator
 * Minivac 601, logic trainer that demonstrated computer circuits

title: List of home computers


text:
Artful Dodger (duo)

Artful Dodger was originally a UK garage duo featuring songwriters and producers Mark Hill and Pete Devereux. They achieved notoriety in the 1990s and early 2000s, releasing seven consecutive singles all of which charted in the United Kingdom Top 20. During this period, the then-unknown Craig David was featured on the track "Re-Rewind". The single launched David's career, landing at #2 in the UK singles chart. Hill and Devereux won numerous accolades, including the 2000 UK Producers of the Year and Ivor Novello recognition for their songwriting.

In 2001, Hill and Devereux parted ways due to creative differences and the trademark, name and usage rights of 'Artful Dodger' were purchased by Blessed Records.

Capitalising on the significant live demand for the group, The owner of Blessed Records, DJ Dave Lowe, accompanied by MC Alistair adopted the name, in essence creating a cover band. They continue to tour under the name Artful Dodger to this day, performing the music of Hill and Devereux frequently in their sets.

Having reunited in 2017, Hill and Devereux found themselves unable to release new music or perform under their own name.

The band is named after a character in the Charles Dickens novel Oliver Twist, due to their numerous early bootlegs. They are referred to in the Streets' single "Let's Push Things Forward". Many Artful Dodger tracks can be found on the UK garage compilation album series Pure Garage, mixed by DJ EZ.

What began as a handle for the release of underground bootleg recordings quickly blossomed into a musical project creating original material for mainstream release and culminated in the release of It's All About the Stragglers, after the duo went on to work with an array of up-and-coming vocalists.

Mark Hill
Mark Hill was admitted to the school of music at the University of Southampton as a percussionist as a teenager. Prior to Artful Dodger, he had performed with the Welsh Philharmonic Orchestra as a percussionist, and played in jazz bands. He had also worked as a session musician.

During the second year of his three-year program at the University of Southampton, Hill joined a jazz-funk band. Few contact hours meant that Hill had plenty of time on his hands, so he started a recording studio with fellow student and bandmate from the jazz-funk band, Neil Kerr. Kerr's father provided seed capital, and in addition to this, the two business partners were able to secure a £20,000 bank loan, for which Kerr's father was listed as guarantor. After a few years of trading, the business attracted further capital investment from 3MV. This studio was described by The Guardian as being a "soundproofed room next to a radio station in Southampton"; a location which that masthead credits as having influenced the "commercial vibe" of their musical output.

Pete Devereux
Pete Devereux holds a Grade 8 in Piano. Prior to Artful Dodger, he had played in grunge rock bands, performed classical violin, and DJ-ed.

Pete Devereux first found his way towards Mark Hill when he booked time at his and Neil Kerrs' studio, after discovering it in the YellowPages.

As Artful Dodger
The origins of Artful Dodger lie in an R&B remix crew of producers, which included Mark Hill and Pete Devereux, known as Back to the Future. This group disbanded due to a lack of financial success. In 1997, Hill and Devereux joined forces to create bootleg editions of tracks including "Dreams" by Gabrielle, "You're Not Alone" by Olive, and "If You Love Me" by Brownstone, releasing these under the Artful Dodger moniker, under Fagin Records.

Both Artful Dodger and Fagin were intended to be disposable aliases adopted to protect their identities and shield them from potential lawsuits from record companies, which might be inclined to pursue them for their unauthorised sampling of other artists' work. The name Artful Dodger was decided on over coffee, at a meeting between Mark Hill and Pete Devereux in Southampton. Names such as Dick Turpin and Robin Hood were also under consideration, but Artful Dodger held greater appeal due its association with the city of London; regarded by many as the capital of the garage sound. Speaking of their use of 2-step rhythms, Hill commented that it emerged from the fact that he was bored with the four to the floor structure of house music, while also being influenced by R&B, and the work of Ramsey & Fen, as well as Tina Moore's "Never Gonna Let You Go". He described the sound as one that 'wasn't trying to be house music, wasn't trying to be R&B...was just a...natural blend of the two'. Devereux commented that he was excited by the emergence of the garage sound, citing that he was particularly inspired by Double 99's "RipGroove", which had helped to bring the sound to mainstream audiences.

Association with Craig David
Mark Hill was first introduced to Craig David when a friend was working on a project associated with a youth centre linked to the Southampton football club, using Mark Hill and business associate, Neil Kerrs' studio. Craig David was a soloist on the project, and Hill noted him for his talent. Hill next encountered David in a club 'years later'; finding that he was already familiar with the bootleg vinyl releases he had completed with Devereux as Artful Dodger, and with Artful Dodger being in need of a vocalist to contribute to their original instrumental tracks, Hill invited David to return to his studio. This led to a series of vinyl releases, via Artful Dodger's own label for the release of their original tracks, Centric Records, including "Something", "What Ya Gonna Do" and, most notably, "Re-Rewind". Following an initial 'white label' release, these were then licensed on to any interested record labels. The original plan was for David to be the frontman for Artful Dodger. Plans changed once David signed to a different record label and hired professional artist management; David was to use Artful Dodger to launch his solo career, thus leaving Hill and Devereux to become "unwitting popstars" as the frontmen of Artful Dodger. At some stage in 2002, after David's departure, Andy Sherman sang with the outfit and toured with them.

In 2013, Devereux appeared alongside many other garage pioneers in a documentary exploring the legacy of UK garage, Rewind 4Ever: The History of UK Garage, talking about his career with Hill as Artful Dodger and working with David.

It's All About the Stragglers
On 20 November 2000 Artful Dodger released an album, It's All About the Stragglers, on FFRR Records. With tracks featuring mostly unknown vocalists, the album was largely a compilation of their previous vinyl releases and CD singles. FFRR had acquired the rights to a large number of Artful Dodger tracks that had previously been released via other labels. FFRR were therefore in the advantageous position of being able to present the duo with a fait accompli, whereby they did not genuinely have the choice to release the album under any other label.

Personnel changes, transfer of name and associated confusion
It was announced on 10 July 2001 that Pete Devereux was leaving Artful Dodger. The official statement emphasised that the parting of ways was 'amicable'. This news came immediately prior to the release of the single "TwentyFourSeven", featuring Melanie Blatt [different version to that which appears on It's All About the Stragglers]. Hill alone represented Artful Dodger in the cover art for the single and the video clip. Fatigued from an onerous tour schedule, having 'strained' relationships with certain colleagues, wanting to focus more on a behind-the-scenes music industry role as producer, and with a view towards doing more work with Craig David, Mark Hill left Artful Dodger, and Devereux returned, before leaving once again. It was in the midst of all of this that the Artful Dodger name was sold, or otherwise changed hands.

The transfer of the 'Artful Dodger' moniker has been the source of a great deal of speculation and critical commentary, expressed on social media sites including Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, and has been explained by Hill and Devereux variously across numerous interviews. The common theme articulated in these interviews is that the duo express their anger and frustration over the fact that two different people, only one of which had any, albeit limited and 'guest status' involvement in the creation of the Artful Dodger music, were seemingly able to achieve exclusive control over the Artful Dodger name, play at events, participate in interviews with journalists who were apparently unaware that the constitution of the group had changed, and most disconcertingly, appeared to take credit for the music that had made the original duo famous. That promoters would at times use photos of the original duo to advertise events featuring the new duo heightened the prevailing confusion. Whenever the opportunity presented itself in the natural course of the conversation however, DJ Dave Low has been known to pay homage to Mark Hill when being interviewed. In a 2011 interview with iFILM London, DJ Dave Low named Mark Hill as a current, but apparently dormant member of Artful Dodger. According to public records provided by the Intellectual Property Office - UK [IPO], there was no trademark of the terms 'The Artful Dodger' under the stipulated classes 9, 16, 25, 28, 41 prior to it being assigned to Mark Hill, as a consequence of a process initiated on 7 July 2001.

In a 2019 interview, Mark Hill described complex details regarding the transfer of the Artful Dodger name, consisting of the claim that as part of his departure from Artful Dodger, he had entered into a pact with Pete Devereux, part of which involved Devereux acquiring ownership of the Artful Dodger name; Public Demand subsequently acquired the name from Pete Devereux and have retained it to the present day. This version of events is somewhat substantiated by public records provided by the Intellectual Property Office - UK, which show that the 'Artful Dodger' name was transferred from Mark Hill to Pete Devereux on 27 January 2003. Pete Devereux transferred it to Public Demand Records on 1 May 2003. The trademark was transferred once again on 22 May 2008, from Public Demand Records to Blessed Records. Discogs lists Blessed Records as a 'sublabel' of Public Demand Records.

The Wayback Machine internet archive offers some evidence that Artful Dodger may have been a trio at some stage, with Pete Devereux appearing alongside DJ Dave Low and an unknown man on the main page of the group's website. It is unclear whether this had any practical significance that extended beyond the online marketing of the group. This representation of Artful Dodger as a trio is archived by the Wayback Machine as having been displayed from 25 October 2001 to 8 October 2010.

Once the Artful Dodger name came under the direct control of Public Demand Records, the duo which ultimately emerged and stands as the current incarnation of Artful Dodger has come to consist of MC Alistair, who had been a featured artist on tracks by the original Artful Dodger, and was now upgraded to the status of being a permanent member of the group; in addition to newcomer, DJ Dave Low. Both have toured the brand extensively and internationally over subsequent years as a DJ and MC duo; frequently being billed to appear alongside period genre peers including DJ Luck and MC Neat, and successors such as So Solid Crew. In addition to playing garage tracks, their repertoire has expanded to include tracks from the dubstep, deep funky house, soulful house, bassline, electro, jungle, drum and bass, and rare groove genres, curated to fit with the atmosphere at the event. Mark Hill has emphasised that he does not endorse this incarnation of Artful Dodger, and has communicated that he is sceptical of the inclusion of MC Alistair, dismissing it as an attempt by 'the label' to 'add legitimacy'.

Potential second album
In the immediate aftermath of the departure of Pete Devereux in July 2001, Billboard reported that it was anticipated that Mark Hill would complete a sophomore Artful Dodger album for release in the summer of 2002; this however never eventuated.

In a 2009 interview with TimeOut Dubai, DJ Dave Low mentioned that he was involved in the recording of a second Artful Dodger album. He stated that this upcoming album would cover an array of genres, including down-tempo, R&B, broken beat, funky house and bassline, in addition to garage. This alleged album has not been released to date, yet a track titled "One More Chance", featuring Mark Asare, surfaced on a Ministry of Sound compilation album around this time.

Original Dodger
In August 2016, a 'selfie' entered circulation on Facebook showing Mark Hill and Pete Devereux, fingers to their lips, with the hashtag #mumstheword. The pair were 'convening' for the purpose of thinking of solutions to problems stemming from the fact that they had lost control of the Artful Dodger name, including the issue that those who had established themselves in their stead were answering interview questions as though they were responsible for the creation of the Artful Dodger music, which was making it difficult for them to get bookings. As a consequence of the unexpected positive response to the possibility of a reunion of the original duo, in 2017, Mark Hill and Pete Devereux formally announced the reestablishment of their creative partnership, reuniting as Original Dodger. Leading the charge was the 2017 single, "Millionaire". News indicated that an '11 track release' was due to emerge, titled Soundtrack, and a tracklist was published. Soundtrack was to take the form of a 'mixtape', and was to serve as the precursor to an album release. Later in 2017, the single "Find Space", featuring Shakka, was released, which was followed in 2018 by a 4-track EP titled Momentum, led by the single "Bubblin", featuring Daniel Bedingfield. Disappointing sales of these early releases meant that a record deal with Warner Music Group was terminated in late 2018. Mark Hill indicated that as a consequence of this, any further Original Dodger material would be released independently.

DJ mix albums

 * Rewind: The Sound of UK Garage (March 2000)
 * Re-Rewind Back by Public Demand (August 2000)
 * Rewind 2001 – Lessons from the Underground (July 2001)

Remixes

 * Artful Dodger - "Please Don't Turn Me On"
 * Barbara Tucker – "Stop Playing with My Mind"
 * BBMak – "Still on Your Side"
 * Brownstone – "If You Love Me"
 * Colour Girl – "Joyrider"
 * Craig David – "Fill Me In"
 * Gabrielle – "Dreams"
 * Gabrielle – "Rise"
 * Jennifer Lopez - "Play"
 * Lynden David Hall - "Forgive Me"
 * Olive – "You're Not Alone"
 * Romina Johnson – "Movin' Too Fast"
 * Sisqo – "Thong Song"
 * Sisqo – "Incomplete"
 * Soulsearcher – "Do It to Me Again"
 * Victor Romeo - "Love Will Find a Way"

title: Artful Dodger (duo)


text:
Talk:Lauri Ingman

Untitled
Machine-translated gibberish was removed and inserted below. It was ripped from the thesis of Hannu Välimäki. I'm not sure if this qualifies as a copyright infringement. Anyway, it is incomprehensible. I highlighted two funny points
 * Caid Raspa 13:17 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Lauri Ingma as Finnish religion education and school developer \par in pertaining to education faculty was presented 11.6.1998 accurately ttavaksi TT Hannu Välimäe thesis "Lauri Ingma as Finnish religion education and school developer".

Research concerns to the educational science trade.

As the opponent was associate professor Markku Pyysiäine and as the custodian professor Martti T. The black-throated diver.

The act will publish in series reporting of Finland's church-historical company (179).

Lauri Ingma (1868-1934) actions as the religion teacher, as the practical theology professor and as Finland's Lutheran church Arch bishop. He was also member of parliament and multiple Minister of education. As the politician he was also school politician. In research is being resolved the activity of the ingma as Finnish religion education and school developer and this activity's motives and results. His developing action became focussed to the ecclesiastical religion education (family upbringing, Sunday school, ecclesiastical primary education, confirmation school), school religion teaching and nation and to grammar school foundation for operations and -to the frames.

Ingma developed the religion education of the church and school as the consistent entirety, that it would have fulfilled better their task as the nation religious ethical rearer. It required especially church's child and developing of the youth work forms. In the Sunday school and in the ecclesiastical initial school to the child was impressed basic data from Christianity and Christian outlook on life. In the a key position was Sunday school, which was available for the statutory and pedagogogisesti for the high level teachers by educating and by producing to them new teaching material. In that regard the church and state possible separation and, I lacquer open from confessional religion teaching resources church was to be developed for self expressly from Sunday school efficient form of the religion education. State was supports or economically activity of the ecclesiastical initial schools. Also the activity of the confirmation school was to be boosted.

Securing of the school religion teaching Ingma resisted steeply the separation of the church and state. in the also the nation teaching reform whole preparation phase he demanded determined sufficient and confessional to the religion teaching elementary school. To all students compulsory irreligious ethics teaching he rejected steeply. His assumption herbart-zilleriläisen accordingly the pedagogic tendency, Ingma looked, that elementary school and grammar school working classes religion teaching was changing from the former catechism teaching primarily raamatunhistorian as being teaching. From the subject was in any case chopping. His prepare raamatunhistorian 's textbooks and teaching guides represented this tendency.

Ingma held compulsory education renewal and elementary school well as the necessary, but he would have wanted to economic reasons slows the execution of the renewal. He wanted also regulate establishing of the private grammar schools their level kkuuden as being preservation. To the operating licence escorted school had to be protected sufficient government assistance. Securing of the teaching level also nation and grammar school teachers salary should be competitive.

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title: Talk:Lauri Ingman


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