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Talk:Supernatural/Archive 4

How is the presumption in this article that science and the scientific method have the absolute last word on things NPOV? --Daniel C. Boyer

 * In many articles, that presumption is very appropriate, especially when discussing scientific endeavors. In articles that compare or contrast science or empiricism with other belief systems, it seems to me that it would be inappropriate to let either belief system be presumed correct. It should be enough to document the sources of various claims, so that the reader who *does* think science should have the last word, will not be misled by this article. That's what I have tried to do here.

 * Incidentally, I deleted the words "and logic" from the opening paragraph because many supernatural phenomena can be explained in way whose logic is internally consistent, even if there is no external scientific evidence to corroborate it. Wesley

 * Frankly, I don't see where the current article claims that the scientific method has the last word on all things. Daniel, could you be a bit more specific on why you think this is so? -- Jan Hidders 12:40 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

Wesley, how do you think a religious view like that of Unificationism can be accomodated in an encyclopidia article on supernatural and natural phenomena? I think my church would like to see science expand the scope of its inquiries to include supernatural phenomena. Is there any prominent spokesman, such as a Nobel-prize winner or at least an author or professor, who has discussed applying scientific techniques of inquiry to phenomena which are not necessarily part of the observable physical world?

Is Raymond Moody being scientific (in any reasonable sense of the word) when he studies Near death experiences? Ed Poor 12:17 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * It's not the phenomenon itself that is either scientific or not, but the theories that are put forward to explain them. So it depends on what theories Raymond Moody is researching and whether he uses Occam's razor, i.e., does not assume anything supernatural. Perhaps the wording of the last sentence should be adapted a little. -- Jan Hidders 12:40 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * Perhaps I was not clear. I am asking whether the possibility that something supernatural could be involved in near death experiences, could be the topic of a scientific investigation, i.e., does not assume that the natural world is all there is. Ed Poor 12:46 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * The scientific method does not assume that the natural world is all there is. All it says is that you should investigate first the more natural explanations before you move on to the less natural explanations. -- Jan Hidders 13:01 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * I don't think the scientific method is capable of demonstrating positively that something supernatural has taken place. It can either offer a natural explanation, or say it has no explanation. By definition, supernatural phenomena allegedly operate outside the normal natural laws. For example, what experiment could hypothetically prove that Extra-Sensory Perception was taking place, when science relies on observations made through the senses? At best, it could verify that other methods of perception were most likely not being employed. Wesley

 * If there is no way of showing that ESP is a real effect, in what sense could it be a real effect? GrahamN

 * Hypothetically speaking, ESP could be a real effect if it were real, but required some sort of "sixth sense" or other special ability to perceive it. In other words, it could be a real if there is a reality beyond that perceived by the standard five senses. I think that is what is implied by the term "extra-sensory perception". ;-) Wesley

Wesley, what I'm trying to find out has to do with the self-imposed limits of science. If science by definition explores only physical phenomena, then I guess supernatural phenomena are strictly "out" (literally out of bounds). On the other hand, if scientists want to explore possible supernatural phenomena using the same methods they use to study physical phenomena, that would extend the scope of science. Either that, or I've watched too many movies like The Matrix, Vanilla Sky and Minority Report lately :-) Ed Poor

 * Strictly speaking there are no self-imposed limits. It is only a matter of prioritizing which theories should be researched first. -- Jan Hidders 13:41 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * Jan, are you suggesting that science does not confine itself to what can be learned through the five senses, as described in the empiricism article? Wesley

 * I wouldn't dare. :-) Scientific theories have to make verifiable predictions and how else can we verify these then by our senses? This is not a matter of a chosen self-restriction but rather an inherent restriction in the method itself. Note, by the way, that the empiricism doesn't specify which senses we can or cannot use, it just talks about "experiences". -- Jan Hidders 14:07 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

 * Where I'm going with this, Jan and Wesley, is my attempt to figure out how to categorize various reports about the possible existence of a spiritual world observable with five "spiritual senses". Ed Poor

 * It is all dependent upon what these reports claim, which theories they propose as explanations, and how they investigate these theories. There's nothing unscientific about making reports of observations that have been made that way, although strictly speaking you should be careful about assuming that people actually experienced what they said they experienced. The big problems start when you make up theories to explain these observations; what is causing these observations? The theories that assume existence of supernatural entities or phenomena are almost by definition not the most simple ones, and should therefore be researched last. Another problem is that they rarely make specific predictions and are consequently very hard to falsify. The combination of these two problems makes such theories usually very unscientific. -- Jan Hidders 14:48 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I have serious doubts about the recent addition about Skinner and the Bible. I want to allow for some discussion before I delete it. If I do delete it, it would be for these reasons: 1) I have no objection to mentioning Skinner as presenting one explanation for ritual, but I wouldn't make too much of it -- it is a big jump from pigeons to people,

 * I knew you were going to say that. We've learnt a lot about human beings from nematodes and bacteria, and that's an even bigger jump. Jacquerie27 15:17 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

and there are many more sophisticated explanations for ritual,

 * What matters is if they're better explanations, not that they're more "sophisticated". This is supposed to be psychology, not haute couture. Jacquerie27 15:17 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

some of which are not inconsistent with Skinner's point (e.g. Rappaport), but which do have the virtue of being based on empirical evidence from studies of people.

 * You're anthropocentric as well as logocentric. Jacquerie27 15:17 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

2) Skinner is presenting an explanation for ritual, not for myth (in this case, the Biblical history)

3) did Skinner actually make this argument to explain the Hebrew myths? If so, a citation would be useful.  If not, who did?  If no one did, it shouldn't be in an encyclopedia article. Slrubenstein

 * Please delete the Bible quotes whenever you like, because I didn't expect them to last long, but I think the Skinner experiment should stay. Jacquerie27 15:17 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Obviously I think Rappaport's theory is better than Skinner's. But I have no intention of deleting Skinner's theory. My only objection was to presenting it as if it were explaining things that it does not explain. Slrubenstein

 * I agree that Skinner appears to be explaining ritual, not myth or belief in the supernatural.

 * I don't want to get involved in arguments about all this again but I can't agree with that. Ritual among human beings generally requires a belief in the supernatural and Skinner tried to explain ritual among human beings using a psychological mechanism that seems to be at work among pigeons too. Jacquerie27 08:21 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * Sooo... it would appear that what Skinner has demonstrated is that it's possible for pigeons, and perhaps for people as well, to develop rituals for psychological reasons, without belief in the supernatural. Lots of human rituals are based on sheer force of habit, or a vague notion of what the proper way to do something is, or social politeness, rather than any belief in the supernatural. Take the British tea-time ceremony for example, or the Latin American ritual of taking a siesta. Wesley 14:38 22 May 2003 (UTC)

There is nothing in his experiment to suggest the pigeons believed there was a supernatural force involved.

 * The pigeons might have had no conscious belief at all about anything, even if you can apply a concept like "belief" to avian psychology, but human beings who behave in analogous ways (crossing their fingers, praying, etc) do have conscious beliefs about the supernatural. E.g., there's no known natural mechanism by which a rain-dance can affect the weather, so you have to believe in the supernatural to perform one. And they very often work too, if you keep them up long enough.

 * Some factory workers perform maintenance jobs or push and pull certain levers out of a sense of ritual, because that's how it's always been done, but not because of a belief in the supernatural. They may continue to perform certain tasks even if a change in machinery or procedure makes the reason for them obsolete, just because they never knew what the reason was in the first place. Then there's the story of the woman who always cut the end off the Christmas ham and put it on top of the ham when she baked it, because her mother had always done that. Her mother had had a roasting pan that was too small to hold an entire ham unless the end was cut off, but her daughter repeated the ritual without knowing why, even though her roasting pan was large enough to hold the ham. Ritual is often based in belief in the supernatural, but certainly not always. Wesley 14:38 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Thus the Skinner experiment looks like it should be moved, perhaps to Ritual or even behavioural psychology. Something about the cargo cults in the South Pacific might be interesting, though, and relevant to the subject at hand.

 * Cargo-cults would be very interesting, but they seem to involve the same mechanism as pigeon "rituals".

 * Very similar in some respects, but with the advantage that they concern actual people instead of birds, and it's quite a bit easier to determine how they perceive their actions and the reasons for them. Wesley 14:38 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * You've also added this and I'm not sure about the wording:

 * "Other modern skeptical readers of the Bible assert the opposite: that the earliest Christians believed in a strictly supernatural Jesus, and that the historical Jesus did not exist until he was invented by the authors of Gospels late in the first century"

 * Could you give a quote for this? I don't understand what you mean by "a strictly supernatural Jesus" or why a strictly supernatural Jesus has to be distinct from a historical Jesus, and I'm puzzled if you think being strictly supernatural means not being historical. The traditional Christian etc understanding is that strictly supernatural beings, i.e. immaterial spirits, have definitely been part of human history: angels, demons, visions of the Virgin Mary, etc. Jesus could have been a strictly supernatural immaterial spirit and still "walked" among men in the real Holy Land (see docetism). Some skeptics think Jesus was originally symbolic or literary, like a pagan god, before being re-invented as a historical figure, but they wouldn't say that meant he was "strictly supernatural". Cf. the way some Xtians think the book of Genesis is symbolic and not literal history and some think it's a literal history of supernatural events. Jacquerie27 08:21 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * I had in mind Earl Doherty's book The Jesus Puzzle. He suggests that Paul thought Jesus did what he did in some sort of supernatural plane without ever being born on Earth in Bethlehem or walking around the Holy Land, in any sense of the word "walk". He believes the historical Jesus was later invented by the Gospel writers and associated with what Paul wrote, but this would be a subsequent development in Christianity, as Doherty sees it. That's why I used the words "strictly supernatural"; perhaps there's a better choice of words to express this. Wesley \

 * As an aside, could I ask you to put your replies completely after the post you're responding to, rather than interspersing your replies with the original statement? What you're doing often works well in emails, but on these discussion pages it often makes it very difficult to come to the page later and see who said what. It also completely disrupts the flow and thought process of the person you're replying to when you break up their sentences and paragraphs that way. Wesley 14:38 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * I apologize. Disrupting your thought process is the last thing I wanted to do. "Some factory workers perform maintenance jobs or push and pull certain levers out of a sense of ritual". If they think that doing it a different way would be unlucky, I would call it ritual. If they don't think that, I wouldn't call it ritual, I would call it habit.

 * You are missing a central point: This is not the encyclopedia of what Jack thinks. We are writing articles about knowledge that is "out there."  We can and should have a good article on how different people use the term "ritual" and another on "habit" (Bourdieu would be worth exploring) -- but not on how Wesley, Slr, or Jacquerie use the terms. Slrubenstein

 * I'm afraid I'm making a habit of missing central points. Or should that be a ritual? I was expressing an opinion as a native speaker of English. This is not an encyclopedia of what Jack thinks, but it is written in English and words of English are not 'out there', they are social constructs. Jacquerie27 10:49 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Rituals are designed to have some effect well beyond the simple actions involved: pigeons bowing to get food; human beings whistling for a wind. If you whistle just because you like the tune, that's not a ritual.

 * If the theory is that Jesus did what he did on a supernatural plane, it's not just Jesus who was "strictly supernatural", it's the entire Xtian story. I think you should describe that particular theory in more detail rather than leave it as it is.

 * "Very similar in some respects, but with the advantage that they concern actual people instead of birds, and it's quite a bit easier to determine how they perceive their actions and the reasons for them." And with the disadvantage that the variables are impossible to control and to record in detail and analyze statistically. The pigeon experiment illuminates human behavior, it doesn't explain it fully. I like it as a starting point and as an example of how science can make unexpected connections. Jacquerie27 17:59 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Wesley, you make a number of good points. Should we just move all the Skinner stuff to a page on "ritual" or "theories of ritual?" It really seems irrelevant to this page. Slrubenstein

 * Skinner was trying to explain superstitious ritual, not all ritual, and superstition involves the supernatural. But if I'm outvoted, no problem. Vox populi, vox Dei. Jacquerie27 17:59 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * I think our difference of opinion is in whether "ritual" necessarily implies belief in the supernatural, or merely implies a mistaken understanding of cause and effect whereby certain actions are believed to cause different or greater effects than they actually do. If we use the former definition, than the pigeon experiment gets thrown right out unless Skinner claimed that the pigeons believed in supernatural causes. If the latter, then the entire discussion of ritual has nothing to do with the supernatural. In the case of the factory workers, suppose they were told that certain parts of a machine needed to be oiled at certain intervals in order for it to function properly. They did so regularly. The machine was replaced with an upgrade that looked similar but did not require oiling at the same places, but they continued to follow the old routine. Thus these hypothetical workers had a mistaken belief in cause and effect, much like the pigeons, but without believing in "luck" or the supernatural; they just thought that applying oil was necessary for the machine's proper functioning when it no longer was. To me at least, this seems much more analogous to the pigeons' behaviour. With regard to common usage, many people speak of having a ritual cup of coffee in the morning, or the like. And does superstition necessarily involve the supernatural? What about people who take Murphy's Law seriously? Murphy's Law doesn't posit the existence of any supernatural forces per se, but applying it universally does look like a sort of superstitious pessimism. And sometimes ritual and ceremony can almost be used interchangably, like comparing a high school or graduation ceremony with a coming of age ritual. In any case, the ritual article is rather sparse, and I think it would benefit from having this material at least copied there, if not moved there completely. Wesley 18:40 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Wesley, I did some NPOVing of the intro -- could you review it. I am still inclined to delete the stuff on supernaturalization which still seems to reflect one person's POV rather than any body of scholarship. Also, IF we keep this article, how do we distinguish it from the (far more scholarly) article on Western theology? It seems to me that there are really four topics here and I am trying to figure out how best to sort them out in different articles: What do you think? I just think we need to start discussing what belongs in one article or another... Slrubenstein
 * 1) the concept of the supernatural in monotheistic religions (currently in the Western theology article)
 * 2) the concept of the supernatural in comparative religion (see the article for "God?"  From this perspective, perhaps this article should start with four sections -- animism, animatism, polytheism, and monotheism?)
 * 3) the sociological uses of "the supernatural"
 * 4) the relationship between religion, magic, and science (currently discussed in the anthropology of religion article)

 * Well, for my two cents, when all kinds of supernaturalism are lumped together as though they are the same thing, it betrays a lack of seriousness or even hostility to the subject. Your plan addresses that problem of antithetical notions being conflated into one.  Mkmcconn 21:11 22 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Amen to that!

 * And Hallelujah! I don't think we need keep the article and I apologize for missing that central point, for claiming that ritual necessarily involves the supernatural, and for conflating all those antithetical notions of the supernatural into one. I'm afraid I'm making a habit of this sort of thing. Or should that be ritual? Jacquerie27 10:49 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Jacquerie27, I removed this paragraph:

 * Because the truth of supernatural claims cannot be objectively tested, disputes about them often lead to schism, war, and persecution. For example, disputes among members of the Christian supernaturalist community resulted in the Great Schisms, the Thirty Years War, and the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre, and disputes between members of the Jewish and Christian supernaturalist communities resulted in many centuries of hatred and violence (see Christian anti-Semitism and Persecution of Christians). This kind of hatred and violence does not occur among members of the scientific community, because the truth of opposing claims can, at least in principle, be objectively tested in science. Naturalistic science has also been far more successful and far more widely accepted than any particular form of supernaturalism.

Although I'm sure that anti-supernaturalists are distinctive for their confidence that scientific objectivity will end every reason for disagreement that can exist among men, this little sermon doesn't belong here; heck - it's not even "scientific". "Secular", "naturalistic" and "scientific" assumptions have been responsible for hatred and violence on a massive scale, even an unprecedented scale. In addition, there are issues which divide people, which "naturalistic science" claims no ability to resolve: issues of ancestral guilt and right, rights of nations, and other disputes of property and justice. No standard, non-controversial scientific approach to such issues has ever been settled upon, and for that reason no scientific answer has ever been provided by which all disputes can be ended. The claims made in your paragraph are superstitiously overconfident in the ability of science to solve the ills of the world. Mkmcconn 22:23 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * And this isn't a sermon? Where was the claim that scientific objectivity will end every reason for disagreement among men? Where was the claim that science can solve all problems facing the human race? What I pointed out was that supernaturalists go to war about supernaturalism, because there are no objective ways of resolving their disputes, but scientists do not go to war about science, because there are objective ways of resolving their disputes. As a supernaturalist, you might find those facts uncomfortable, but you can't deny them -- which is why you have to set up so many straw-men. I said nothing about "secularism" or "materialism" (many scientists are neither secularist nor materialist), nor did I claim science will ever solve the "ills of the world". I don't believe it will -- on the contrary, it will make things worse, partly because it will give supernaturalists like Osama bin Laden greater powers of violence. Jacquerie27 22:54 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Think through the paragraph, J.

 * Notable religious conflicts in history are listed.
 * A contrast is made, with how the scientific community is not similarly afflicted with violence and hatred: as though the two approaches (religious and scientific) overlap in the same domain.
 * A claim is made for Naturalism (anti-supernaturalism?), that it is "far more successful and far more widely accepted than any particular form of supernaturalism" again, as though they overlap the same domain.

 * If there is no implication that science substituted for religion could have averted these conflicts, then the comparison is irrelevant and the reason for including the paragraph is disputable. Mkmcconn

 * The comparison is between an epistemology that has an objective means of verifying its claims and resolving its disputes, namely naturalistic science, and an epistemology that has no objective means of verifying its claims and resolving its disputes, namely supernaturalism. It is a legitimate criticism of supernaturalism to say that supernaturalists fail to recognize that their claims were subjective and to admit the possibility of error, which is why they have fought each other for so many centuries. The supernaturalist Muslim Osama bin Laden (to take one example) does not recognize that his claims are subjective or admit the possibility of error.

 * I can see that this is what you intend to compare, but you are not successful. There are many things that cannot be objectively verified (if reference to authority is now redefined as "subjective"); and while it is true that these are often the cause of disputes (because not all authorities are universally recognized), most of them have nothing to do with what you've called supernaturalism.  Most of human existence is made up of these things, in fact - religion among them, along with many other things (like borders, tariffs, language and customs, loyalties, history, etc.)  It's on such things that religion may have direct bearing, and accordingly may become insinuated into a fight over borders and loyalties. Someone may point out that while the Catholics fought Protestants in the Thirty Years War they did not fight over the molecular composition of water, but that's irrelevant. However, this appears to be what you want to do.  Mkmcconn \

 * Regarding Osama and Ghandi and people of their ilk, you are lumping so many things together when you talk about supernaturalism, that it's quite pointless. You want to call them all subjective, somehow in the same sense.  What you mean by this, in reference to no one in particular, is entirely unclear.  Is Osama an subjective engineer?  And yet, he is a Muslim engineer.  The alternative to his religion is not his science. They do not deal with the same things; and in those things for which he relies on religion, his science is irrelevant. Mkmcconn 13:15 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * A claim is made for naturalistic science, not anti-supernaturalism -- many famous scientists have been supernaturalists. Naturalistic science and its technological byproducts have been adopted by adherents of all forms of supernaturalism all over the world. IOW, naturalistic science has been far more successful and far more widely accepted than any particular form of supernaturalism.

 * This is why the paragraph I deleted was so uninformative. It makes a comparison, but not concerning the same domain of issues.  Religion has caused wars, because in the past (for example) religion was intimately tied to fortunes, allegiances and practical ideologies.  Although the issues over which religion causes wars are not solved in the slightest degree by a non-religious approach instead - fortunes, allegiances and ideologies continue to conflict - this is not the point of your comparison.  Instead, you want to say that naturalistic science deals with other issues, irrelevant to the conflicts which religion failed to prevent.  There is no point to the comparison, in other words.  It's like saying "In the United States, English has been more successful than Christianity".  Mkmcconn 13:15 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Supernaturalism and science overlap in all sorts of ways: see for example creationism and free will. Supernaturalism retreats as science advances, as other paras in the article point out: what was once explained supernaturally (disease, etc) is now explained naturalistically. Jacquerie27 09:29 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * What you want to call "supernaturalism" is not a single thing, and neither is the relation of "it" to science all of one kind. Mkmcconn 13:15 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

And where do I say supernaturalism is all one thing and the relation of it to science all of one kind? "It makes a comparison, but not concerning the same domain of issues." The whole point of my comparison is that the domain of supernaturalism is subjective and the domain of science objective. That is why supernaturalism causes hatred and violence and naturalistic science does not. That is also why the domain of supernaturalism has shrunk, because what was once a matter of subjective opinion -- the causes of disease, etc -- is now, thanks to science, a matter of objective fact. I repeat what I said and what you have not denied: it is a legitimate criticism of supernaturalism to say that supernaturalists fail to recognize that their claims were subjective and to admit the possibility of error.

 * Regarding Osama and Ghandi and people of their ilk, you are lumping so many things together when you talk about supernaturalism, that it's quite pointless.

The mysterious appearance of Gandhi makes me think you're trying to muddy the water, and your claim that he is of Bin Laden's "ilk" makes me think you don't properly understand what you're talking about. Gandhi was a Hindu who believed in ahimsa or non-violence, and if more people had thought like him Partition wouldn't have been so murderously vicious. Partition is another good example of supernaturalism causing conflict (subjective supernaturalist Islam vs subjective supernaturalist Hinduism).

 * You want to call them all subjective, somehow in the same sense. What you mean by this, in reference to no one in particular, is entirely unclear. Is Osama an subjective engineer?  And yet, he is a Muslim engineer.

Supernaturalists are all subjective in one sense, i.e., that they have no objective means of verifying their claims about the supernatural. And I've given you "someone in particular": Osama bin Laden, who is subjective in his supernatural claims. However, he is not subjective in his engineering, just as Einstein and Newton, who were both supernaturalists, were not subjective in their physics.

 * There are many things that cannot be objectively verified (if reference to authority is now redefined as "subjective"); and while it is true that these are often the cause of disputes (because not all authorities are universally recognized),

Two points. One: Supernatural authorities, such as the Bible or Koran, are not universally recognized because there is no objective means of proving the truth of these supernatural authorities. Two: the authority of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible is universally recognized among conservative Jews and Christians. However, conservative Jews and conservative Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians disagree fundamentally (and sometimes murderously) with each other about the interpretation of this universally recognized authority. Why? Because there is no objective means of proving which interpretation of the Bible is correct. IOW, supernatural authorities are subjective. Why? Because they're supernatural. Unlike naturalistic science, supernaturalism is subjective -- that's the point I was trying to make in the paragraph you've deleted and that you have so far failed to disprove, or even deny without disproof.

 * most of them have nothing to do with what you've called supernaturalism.

Your argument seems to be: because supernaturalism is not wholly responsible for conflicts among human beings, we shouldn't point out it's responsible for any conflicts at all. In an article on the supernatural, it's legitimate to contrast supernaturalism with naturalism in the form of science and point out that subjective supernaturalism, unlike objective science, has been directly responsible for many conflicts and has exacerbated and prolonged many others.

 * Someone may point out that while the Catholics fought Protestants in the Thirty Years War they did not fight over the molecular composition of water, but that's irrelevant. However, this appears to be what you want to do.

It's not irrelevant at all. If the two opposing sides during the Thirty Years War had been interested beforehand in the molecular composition of water and not in the supernatural composition of the Eucharist, would they have needed to go to war to settle any dispute that arose? If they wouldn't, why not?

 * Instead, you want to say that naturalistic science deals with other issues, irrelevant to the conflicts which religion failed to prevent. There is no point to the comparison, in other words. It's like saying "In the United States, English has been more successful than Christianity".

English, unlike supernaturalism or science, is not an epistemology. The point to the comparison is that while science and supernaturalism are both epistemologies claiming to explain the universe, science deals with what is objective and supernaturalism with what is subjective. If you can't disprove that -- please do so if you can -- the comparison is legitimate.

One last important point:

 * ...irrelevant to the conflicts which religion failed to prevent.

I am not criticizing religion, I am criticizing supernaturalism. This is not an article on religion, it is an article on the supernatural. Not all religious claims are subjective or unverifiable, not all forms of supernaturalism involve religion, and religions themselves vary hugely in their degree of supernaturalism: compare Unitarianism with Voodoo or Santeria. The fact that you're conflating religion with supernaturalism suggests to me your pro-religious bias is interfering with your ability to understand the topic. Jacquerie27 22:42 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Jacquerie27, sometimes you can be one of the sharper folks around here, but in this case you just aren't following the bouncing ball.

 * It's a bit annoying to be patronized by someone who thought the pacifist Gandhi was of the mass-murdering Osama bin Laden's "ilk", you know. And who kept referring to religion when the criticism was of supernaturalism.

 * If you won't follow the point, you won't make your point. I'm not trying to provoke you toward anything but more careful thought. Mkmcconn

The paragraph should not go back in, unless or until it is re-written to say to its readers what you intend it to mean; and right now, it does not do that. I am trying to prompt you to reconstruct the paragraph to illustrate the comparison you are trying to make in more clear terms. Demonstrate that the conflicts mentioned are due to a "subjective" or "supernatural" epistemology, rather than the elusiveness or complexity of the issues.

 * "Elusiveness" is just a casuistical way of saying "subjectivity". But okay, so your reasoning is: elusive and complex "issues" lead to schism, persecution, and war. Let's take science and mathematics. There are some extremely elusive and complex "issues" in science and mathematics, but there have been no schisms, persecutions, and wars about them*. Now let's take theology. There are some extremely "elusive" and "complex" "issues" in theology... and there have been thousands of years of schisms, persecutions, and wars about them. Therefore it is not the elusiveness or complexity of "issues" that leads to schism, persecution, and war, it is whether one possesses an objective means of resolving these elusive and complex "issues". QED. If you disagree, let's see your objective means of resolving theological disputes.

 * Except when subjective politics gets involved: see Lysenko. And note also: in general supernaturalists would not agree that the issues they fight over are elusive or complex -- that's a very liberal POV. Christians haven't persecuted Jews for 2000 years because they think it's hard to understand the issues or to prove that Christianity is right, and Jews didn't persecute Christians at the beginning because they thought it was hard to prove Christianity was wrong.

 * It's still a puzzle to me, what you think the argument is about, J (although it's evident that you're getting a bit perturbed).

 * I would say frustrated.

 * I don't question that (1) religion is the cause of hatred and wars. You say that it's an issue of epistemology, and you attempt to illustrate this, claiming that (2) the alternative epistemology (naturalism) does not fall to such shameful behavior.  I'm still scratching my head over what you mean, in terms of the facts, with regard to that second point.  Mkmcconn \

 * Look: the comparison is not between religion and naturalism or between supernaturalism and naturalism in general, but between supernaturalism and that naturalistic epistemology known as science. That's why the paragraph used the word "science" and not the word "naturalism". Naturalism, as a complete philosophy, rejects the supernatural completely. Science does not. A naturalist would reject a supernatural virgin birth, but that's a subjective opinion and we have no objective means of verifying it. A scientist, qua scientist, would say there are not enough data to pronounce scientifically, but might nevertheless accept the virgin birth as supernatural: some scientists are also Christian. When you can't objectively verify your beliefs and have no foreseeable way of doing so, you're outside the realm of science and (potentially) in the realm of politics.

 * Let's see ... wasn't it once considered an objective scientific fact, that the Jews are an inferior race? That did seem to result in the death of a lot of them.  Mkmcconn 22:59 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, I think some scientists considered it an objective scientific fact that Jews were an inferior race. However, those scientists who disagreed with them were not persecuted except under the Nazis, and Nazism was an anti-rationalist, supernaturalist movement whose anti-Semitism came at least in part from Christianity. Today some scientists would say Ashkenazi Jews are a superior race, at least in intelligence (e.g. see ), and in principle we can objectively verify that. OTOH, we can't objectively verify whether Jews are under a supernatural curse for murdering their Messiah, as Christianity taught for nearly 2000 years (and still teaches, in some cases).

 * If you intend to show that a supernatural epistemology is the cause of the Thirty Years War, show how naturalistic epistemology would have avoided that conflict. I don't see how that can be done, or I would attempt to write it myself. Good luck. Mkmcconn 01:13 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * You don't understand elementary logic either. From "if X, then Y" it does not follow "if ~X, then ~Y" (~X = not-X, btw). I asked a couple of questions above and you haven't answered them. If the two opposing sides during the Thirty Years War had been interested beforehand in the molecular composition of water and not in the supernatural composition of the Eucharist, would they have needed to go to war to settle any dispute that arose? If they wouldn't, why not? But I expect I'll get more casuistry. 213.122.170.125 20:17 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * This is a very effective goad, but I'm going to stick to the point.

 * But you weren't going to answer the questions...

 * Show that epistemology is the cause of wars. This was your claim, so prove it. Discuss naturalism in the realm of politics, in order to make the comparison to supernaturalism relevant. Mkmcconn \

 * Look: scientists -- not naturalists -- do not need to resort to politics to settle their disputes. People in dispute about the supernatural do. Atheism in its standard forms is naturalistic, but not scientific, because it is not scientific to say there is no God: it's only scientific to say we do not need to invoke God in our explanation of a particular phenomenon. If atheists wanted to settle their dispute with theists, they would have to resort to politics, i.e. gain power and use it to silence theists by force. (And some would say that's what atheists did e.g. in communist Albania. I think it wasn't atheism as such, it was communism as a competing religion, so what happened was really like Christianity silencing paganism in the 300s.)

 * If this cannot be done, then drop the comparison and illustrate your point by citing instances of religious tensions and wars. No one would debate you, if your point is only that religion is blamed for a lot of trouble in the world. That's not what's silly. It's your comparison to naturalism that doesn't work. Mkmcconn

 * I hope you realize by now that I am not comparing religion (ideology) with naturalism (ideology) but supernaturalism (epistemology) with science (epistemology). Buddhism is a religion but has not caused as much (obvious) trouble as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, partly because it is not as supernaturalist.

 * With all due respect, in these last two paragraphs I think both of you are missing the point. It does not matter how clear or convincing Jacquerie's arguments about "supernaturalism" are, because no Wikipedia article should be about the views of wikipedians.  J has every right to criticize supernaturalism on these talk pages, but not in the article itself.  The article should provide a critical account of popular and scholarly discussions, not the views of the authors. Slrubenstein

 * Am I crazy? J's views are not the issue at all, SR.  The deleted paragraph makes two claims.  The first is that "supernaturalism" (as an epistemology) has been the cause of wars. The second is that "Naturalism" (as an epistemology) has not been the cause of wars.

 * I'm still having to correct your misreading. The claim was that the naturalistic epistemology of science hasn't been the cause of wars, because scientists don't need to go to war to settle their disputes. Supernaturalists do.

 * The paragraph does not demonstrate this claim. It does not illustrate anything. Mkmcconn \

 * If J can show the relevance of a naturalistic epistemology to political issues, then the comparison made in the paragraph would be relevant. Otherwise, there is no comparison -- geologists don't claim to provide political answers based on "objective science".

title: Talk:Supernatural/Archive 4


text:
James Darmesteter

James Darmesteter (28 March 1849 – 19 October 1894) was a French author, orientalist, and antiquarian.

Biography
He was born of Jewish parents at Château-Salins, in Lorraine. The family name had originated in their earlier home of Darmstadt. He was educated in Paris, where, under the guidance of Michel Bréal and Abel Bergaigne, he imbibed a love for Oriental studies, to which for a time he entirely devoted himself. In 1875, he published a thesis on the mythology of the Avesta, in which he advocated that the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism had been influenced by Judaism (and not that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism as many scholars said). In 1877 became teacher of Persian language at the École des Hautes Études. He continued his research with his Études iraniennes (1883), and ten years later published a complete translation of the Avesta and associated Zend (lit. "commentary"), with historical and philological commentary of his own (Zend Avesta, 3 vols., 1892–1893) in the Annales du Musée Guimet. He also edited the Avesta for Max Müller's Sacred Books of the East series (vols. 4 and 23).

Darmesteter regarded the extant texts as far more recent than commonly believed, placing the earliest in the 1st century BC and the bulk in the 3rd century AD. In 1885 he was appointed professor in the Collège de France, and was sent to India in 1886 on a mission to collect the popular songs of the Afghans, a translation of which, with a valuable essay on the Afghan language and literature, he published on his return. His impressions of British rule in India were conveyed in Lettres sur l'Inde (1888). England interested him deeply; and his attachment to the gifted English writer, Agnes Mary Frances Robinson, whom he shortly afterwards married (and who in 1901 became the wife of Professor E. Duclaux, director of the Pasteur Institute at Paris), led him to translate her poems into French in 1888. Two years after his death a collection of excellent essays on English subjects was published in English. He also wrote Le Mahdi depuis les origines de l'Islam jusqu'a nos jours (1885); Les Origines de la poesie persane (1888); Prophètes d'Israel (1892), and other books on topics connected with the East, and from 1883 onwards drew up the annual reports of the Société Asiatique. He had just become connected with the Revue de Paris, when his delicate constitution succumbed to a slight attack of illness on 10 October 1894 at Maisons-Laffitte.

His elder brother, Arsène Darmesteter, was a distinguished philologist and man of letters.

There is a survey of James Darmesteter's work in the Journal asiatique (1894, vol. iv., pp. 519–534), and an obituary by Henri Cordier, with a list of his writings, in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society (January 1895); see also Gaston Paris, "James Darmesteter," in Penseurs et poètes (1896), (pp. 1–61).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: James Darmesteter


text:
Arsène Darmesteter

Arsène Darmesteter (5 January 1846, Château-Salins, Moselle – 16 November 1888, Paris) was a distinguished French philologist and man of letters.

Biography
He studied under Gaston Paris at the École pratique des hautes études, and became professor of Old French language and literature at the Sorbonne, where he met his wife, the painter Héléna Hartog. His Life of Words appeared in English in 1888. He also collaborated with Adolphe Hatzfeld in a Dictionnaire général de la langue française (2 vols., 1895-1900). Among his most important work was the elucidation of Old French by means of the many glosses in the medieval writings of Rashi and other French Jews.

His scattered papers on Romance and Jewish philology were collected by James Darmesteter as Arsène Darmesteter, reliques scientifiques (2 vols., 1890). His valuable Cours de grammaire historique de la langue française was edited after his death by E. Muret and L. Sudre (1891-1895; English edition, 1902).

title: Arsène Darmesteter


text:
Michel Bréal

Michel Jules Alfred Bréal (26 March 1832 – 25 November 1915), French philologist, was born at Landau in Rhenish Palatinate. He is often identified as a founder of modern semantics. He was also the creator of the modern marathon race, having proposed its first running at the 1896 Olympic Games and offered what would become known as Breal's Silver Cup to the winner.

Life and career
Michel Bréal was born at Landau in Germany of French-Jewish parents.

After studying at Wissembourg, Metz and Paris, he entered the École Normale Supérieure in 1852. In 1857 he went to Berlin, where he studied Sanskrit under Franz Bopp and Albrecht Weber. On his return to France he obtained an appointment in the department of oriental manuscripts at the Bibliothèque Impériale. In 1864 he became professor of comparative grammar at the Collège de France, in 1875 member of the Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-lettres, in 1879 inspecteur général for higher education until the abolition of the office in 1888. In 1890 he was made commander of the Legion of Honour. He resigned his chair in 1905, and died in Paris.

In 1883, Bréal coined the term semantics in the article “Les lois intellectuelles du langage. Fragment de sémantique” published in the journal Annuaire de l'association des études grecques en France (page 133).

Invention of the modern marathon
Bréal is credited with the invention of the marathon race. He attended the 1894 Founding Congress of the International Olympic Committee at the Sorbonne in Paris; at its concluding dinner, he was seated next to the father of the modern games, Pierre de Coubertin. Soon after the congress, on September 15, 1894, Bréal sent Coubertin a letter outlining his idea:

"Puisque vous allez à Athènes, voyez donc, si l’on peut organiser une course de Marathon au Pnyx. Cela aura une saveur antique. Si nous savions le temps qu’a mis le guerrier grec, nous pourrions établir le record. Je réclamerais pour ma part l’honneur d’offrir « la Coupe de Marathon »."

"Translation: Since you are going to Athens, see if we can organize a Marathon race at the Pnyx. This would have an antique flavor. If we knew how long the Greek warrior took, we could set the distance. For my part, I would claim the honor of offering the 'Marathon Cup.'"

The story of the ancient marathon — the run of the Greek soldier Pheidippides to announce victory at the Battle of Marathon to either Athens or Sparta — had become more culturally prominent in late 19th-century Europe. Robert Browning's 1879 poem "Pheidippides" had brought the story to wider attention, as had an 1890 archeological dig of the Marathon tumuli. Before Bréal's proposal, the 1896 Olympics had not planned any races longer than 1500 meters; some argued that such a long distance was "contrary to the principles of sport and of hygiene."

As part of his sponsorship of the race, Bréal had a Paris jeweler create Breal's Silver Cup for the winner, who ended up being the Greek Spyros Louis.

Works
Among his works, which deal mainly with mythological and philological subjects, may be mentioned: He also wrote pamphlets on education in France, the teaching of ancient languages, and the reform of French orthography. In 1906 he published Pour mieux connaitre Homère.
 * L'Étude des origines de la religion zoroastrienne (1862), for which a prize was awarded him by the Académie des Inscriptions
 * Hercule et Cacus (1863), in which he disputes the principles of the symbolic school in the interpretation of myths
 * Le Mythe d'Œdipe (1864)
 * Les Tables eugubines (1875)
 * Mélanges de mythologie et de linguistique (2nd. ed., 1882)
 * Leçons de mots (1882, 1886)
 * Dictionnaire étymologique latin (1885)
 * Grammaire latine (1890).
 * Essai de sémantique (1897), on the signification of words, which was translated into English by Mrs Emmeline Cust with preface by J. P. Postgate.
 * a translation of Bopp's Comparative Grammar (1866–1874), with introductions, which is highly valued.

 * Hans W. Giessen, Heinz-Helmut Lüger, Günther Volz (Hrsg.): Michel Bréal – Grenzüberschreitende Signaturen. Verlag Empirische Pädagogik, Landau 2007 ISBN 3-9373-3363-0
 * Hans W. Giessen & Heinz-Helmut Lüger: Ein Grenzgänger der ersten Stunde. Michel Bréal: Vom Marathon zum Pynx in: Dokumente. Zs. für den deutsch-französischen Dialog. Gesellschaft für übernationale Zusammenarbeit, Bonn. Heft 4 / 2008, pp. 59 – 62 ISSN 0012-5172
 * Hans W. Giessen: Mythos Marathon. Von Herodot über Bréal bis zur Gegenwart. (= Landauer Schriften zur Kommunikations- und Kulturwissenschaft. Band 17). Verlag Empirische Pädagogik, Landau 2010, ISBN 978-3-941320-46-8.
 * Heinz-Helmut Lüger (dir.), Hans W. Giessen (dir.) et Bernard Weigel (dir.), Entre la France et l'Allemagne : Michel Bréal, intellectuel engagé, Limoges, Lambert-Lucas, 2012 (ISBN 978-2-35935-043-2)
 * Brigitte Nerlich: Michel Bréal: mettre l’homme dans la langue. In: Penser l’histoire des savoirs linguistiques. Hommage à Sylvain Auroux. Textes réunis par Sylvie Archaimbault Jean-Marie Fournier & Valérie Raby, 611-619. Lyon: ENS, 2013. (ISBN 978-2-84788-417-3).
 * Jan Noordegraaf: Salient scholars. Michel Bréal and his Dutch connections. In: Penser l’histoire des savoirs linguistiques. Hommage à Sylvain Auroux. Textes réunis par Sylvie Archaimbault Jean-Marie Fournier & Valérie Raby, 621-632. Lyon: ENS, 2013. (ISBN 978-2-84788-417-3). http://hdl.handle.net/1871/51333

title: Michel Bréal


text:
Talk:Organic reaction

Hi
hi

There are far more reactions types than only four!! Kondensation, reduction, polymerisation and rearangement reactions.

Some of those reactions fit into more categories than one. Some substitution reactions folow an addition elimination pathway.

Bye

Drowning....
Yikes, this page is insane. This sort of material almost deserves its own wikipedia.

My proposal:

organic reaction: general description some history, mostly links no elaborations

links to

 * organic reactions by type 20 max!

mirrors Inorganic chemical reaction currently holds 4 main types

for example March:

aliphatic nucleophilic substitution, aromatic electrophilic substitution, aliphatic electrophilic substtitution, aromatic nucleophilic substtitution, free radical substitution, addition to carbon-carbon multiple bons, addition to carbon - hetero multiple bonds, eliminations, rearrangements, oxidations, reductions

 * organic reactions by type of compound synthesised

this will clean up a lot, cut everything up in more digestable pieces

My proposal:

There are only 5 types of reaktions!!!!!! (My Prof said once!)

Nucleophilic Electophilic Radical Reduction Oxidation

All reactions fit in one of these Categories!

Stone 10.2.2005

Re the revert of my changes. Is 'R' actually defined anywhere? My understanding is that it's monovalent, so saying eg an alkene is R=R is misleading at best. 86.137.75.32 15:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Retire current tables?
Is it realistic to continue with the current reaction summary for this article? The amount of tables just gets too large and the reaction / synthesis part is already covered in the separate pages for each compound class.

any thoughts? V8rik 23:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The list is updated and complete, unless there is opposition this list will replace the current tables on february 12 2006 V8rik 20:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Acyl halides: preparation - reactions
 * Aldehydes: preparation - reactions
 * Acyloins: preparation - reactions
 * Alkanes: preparation - reactions
 * Alkenes: preparation - reactions
 * Alkynes: preparation - reactions
 * Alkyl halides: preparation - reactions
 * Alcohols: preparation - reactions
 * Azides: preparation - reactions
 * Aziridines: preparation - reactions
 * Amides: preparation - reactions
 * Amines: preparation - reactions
 * Benzenes: preparation - reactions
 * Carboxylic acids: preparation - reactions
 * Diols: preparation - reactions
 * Esters: preparation - reactions
 * Ethers preparation - reactions
 * Epoxide: preparation - reactions
 * Haloketones: preparation - reactions
 * imines: preparation - reactions
 * Isocyanates: preparation - reactions
 * Ketones: preparation - reactions
 * Nitriles: preparation - reactions

CC-formation/CX-cleavage distinction
I reverted out the following change:

'' The basic organic chemistry reaction types are Organic reactions can be differentiated into CC-bond formation and CX-bond cleavage reactions. Whereas X can be a heteroatom or a carbonatom. Basicly all these reactions can be summed up into two different classes of reactions such as addition reactions, elimination reactions, substitution reactions, pericyclic reactions, rearrangement reactions and redox reactions.''

Since it makes no sense to me: it says "two classes" but six are listed? Is hydrogenation of an olefin ever really considered a "bond cleavage" reaction? I can't see how to fix it, nor what useful information is added. Please clarify?

"Org. React." listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Org. React.. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.   Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Organic reaction


text:
User:Pontist

Pontist is Latinate for "bridge guy". My name is Geoffrey H. Goldberg. I live and work in Pittsburgh, PA, the City of Bridges. I am a bridge engineer there and am active in The Association for Bridge Construction and Design.

I am the author of several websites. You would find my free Search Center very useful.

title: User:Pontist


text:
Isatis tinctoria

Isatis tinctoria, also called woad, dyer's woad, dyer's-weed, or glastum, is a flowering plant in the family Brassicaceae (the mustard family) with a documented history of use as a blue dye and medicinal plant. Its genus name, Isatis, derives from the ancient Greek word for the plant, ἰσάτις. It is occasionally known as Asp of Jerusalem. Woad is also the name of a blue dye produced from the leaves of the plant. Woad is native to the steppe and desert zones of the Caucasus, Central Asia to Eastern Siberia and Western Asia but is now also found in South-Eastern and Central Europe and western North America.

Since ancient times, woad was an important source of blue dye and was cultivated throughout Europe, especially in Western and Southern Europe. In medieval times, there were important woad-growing regions in England, Germany and France. Towns such as Toulouse became prosperous from the woad trade. Woad was eventually replaced by the more colourfast Indigofera tinctoria and, in the early 20th century, both woad and Indigofera tinctoria were replaced by synthetic blue dyes. Woad has been used medicinally for centuries. The double use of woad is seen in its name: the term Isatis is linked to its ancient use to treat wounds; the term tinctoria references its use as a dye. There has also been some revival of the use of woad for craft purposes.

Ancient use
The first archaeological finds of woad seeds date to the Neolithic period. The seeds have been found in the cave of l'Audoste, Bouches-du-Rhône, France. Impressions of seeds of Färberwaid (Isatis tinctoria L.) or German indigo, of the plant family Brassicaceae, have been found on pottery in the Iron Age settlement of Heuneburg, Germany. Seed and pod fragments have also been found in an Iron Age pit at Dragonby, North Lincolnshire, United Kingdom. The Hallstatt burials of the Hochdorf Chieftain's Grave and Hohmichele contained textiles dyed with woad.

Melo and Rondão write that woad was known "as far back as the time of the ancient Egyptians, who used it to dye the cloth wrappings applied for the mummies." Skelton states that one of the early dyes discovered by the ancient Egyptians was "blue woad (Isatis tinctoria)." Lucas writes, "What has been assumed to have been Indian Indigo on ancient Egyptian fabrics may have been woad." Hall states that the ancient Egyptians created their blue dye "by using indigotin, otherwise known as woad."

A dye known as סטיס in Aramaic is mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud.

Celtic blue is a shade of blue, also known as glas celtig in Welsh, or gorm ceilteach in both the Irish language and in Scottish Gaelic. Julius Caesar reported (in Commentarii de Bello Gallico) that the Britanni used to colour their bodies blue with vitrum, a word that means primarily glass, but also the domestic name for the woad (Isatis tinctoria), besides the Gaulish loanword glastum (from Proto-Celtic *glastos green). The connection seems to be that both glass and the woad are "water-like" (vitrum is from Proto-Indo-European , water-like). In terms of usage, the Latin vitrum is more often used to refer to glass rather than woad. The use of the word for the woad might also be understood as "coloured like glass", applied to the plant and the dye made from it.

Gillian Carr conducted experiments using indigo pigment derived from woad mixed with different binders to make body paint. The resulting paints yielded colours from "grey-blue, through intense midnight blue, to black". People with modern experiences with woad as a tattoo pigment have claimed that it does not work well, and is actually caustic and causes scarring when put into the skin.

It has also been claimed that Caesar was referring to some form of copper- or iron-based pigment. Analysis done on the Lindow Man did return evidence of copper. The same study also noted that the earliest definite reference to the woad plant in the British Isles dates to a seed impression on an Anglo-Saxon pot. The authors theorize that vitrum could have actually referred to copper(II) sulfate's naturally occurring variant chalcanthite or to the mineral azurite. A later study concluded the amount was "not of sufficient magnitude to provide convincing evidence that the copper was deliberately applied as paint".

Woad was an important dyeing agent in much of Europe and parts of England during the medieval period. However, dye traders began to import indigo during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, which threatened to replace locally grown woad as the primary blue dye. The translation of vitrum as woad may date to this period.

Medieval period onwards

Woad was one of the three staples of the European dyeing industry, along with weld (yellow) and madder (red). Chaucer mentions their use by the dyer ("litestere") in his poem The Former Age:

 * No mader, welde, or wood no litestere
 * Ne knew; the flees was of his former hewe;

The three colours can be seen together in tapestries such as The Hunt of the Unicorn (1495–1505), though typically it is the dark blue of the woad that has lasted best. Medieval uses of the dye were not limited to textiles. For example, the illustrator of the Lindisfarne Gospels (c. 720) used a woad-based pigment for blue paint. As does the late 13th century North Italian manual on book illumination Liber colorum secundum Magistrum Bernardum describe its usage.

In Viking Age levels at archaeological digs at York, a dye shop with remains of both woad and madder have been excavated and dated to the 10th century. In medieval times, centres of woad cultivation lay in Lincolnshire and Somerset in England, Jülich and the Erfurt area in Thuringia in Germany, Piedmont and Tuscany in Italy, and Gascogne, Normandy, the Somme Basin (from Amiens to Saint-Quentin), Brittany and, above all, Languedoc in France. This last region, in the triangle created by Toulouse, Albi and Carcassonne, known as the Lauragais, was for a long time the biggest producer of woad, or pastel, as it was locally known. One writer commented that "woad […] hath made that country the happiest and richest in Europe."

The prosperous woad merchants of Toulouse displayed their affluence in splendid mansions, many of which still stand, as the Hôtel de Bernuy and the Hôtel d'Assézat. One merchant, Jean de Bernuy, a Spanish Jew who had fled the inquisition, was credit-worthy enough to be the main guarantor of the ransomed King Francis I after his capture at the Battle of Pavia by Charles V of Spain. Much of the woad produced here was used for the cloth industry in southern France, but it was also exported via Bayonne, Narbonne and Bordeaux to Flanders, the Low Countries, Italy, and above all Britain and Spain.

After cropping the woad eddish could be let out for grazing sheep. The woad produced in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire in the 19th century was shipped out from the Port of Wisbech, Spalding and Boston, both the last to northern mills and the USA. The last portable woad mill was at Parson Drove, Cambridgeshire, Wisbech & Fenland Museum has a woad mill model, photos and other items used in woad production. A major market for woad was at Görlitz in Lausitz. The citizens of the five Thuringian Färberwaid (dye woad) towns of Erfurt, Gotha, Tennstedt, Arnstadt and Langensalza had their own charters. In Erfurt, the woad-traders gave the funds to found the University of Erfurt. Traditional fabric is still printed with woad in Thuringia, Saxony and Lusatia today: it is known as Blaudruck (literally, "blue print(ing)").

In the Marche region, the cultivation of the plant was an important resource for the Duchy of Urbino in Italy. To fully understand the importance of the ford industry in the State of Urbino, it is enough to read the comprehensive Chapters of the art of wool in 1555, which dictated prescriptions regarding the cultivation and trade of woad, whether in loaves or macerated (powdered). Testifying to the importance that this crop had in the economy in addition to the archival documents was the identification of a hundred millstones surveyed by Delio Bischi in the province of Pesaro and Urbino, the original use of which had become completely unknown as their memory had been lost.

Use as Chinese medicine
The woad plant's roots are used in Traditional Chinese medicine to make a medicine known as banlangen (bǎnlán'gēn 板蓝根) that purports to have antiviral properties. Banlangen is used as an herbal medicinal tea in China for colds and tonsular ailments. Used as a tea, it has a brownish appearance and (unlike most Chinese medicines) is mildly sweet in taste.

Woad and indigo

The dye chemical extracted from woad is indigo, the same dye extracted from "true indigo", Indigofera tinctoria, but in a lower concentration. Following the Portuguese discovery of the sea route to India by the navigator Vasco da Gama in 1498, great amounts of indigo were imported from Asia. Laws were passed in some parts of Europe to protect the woad industry from the competition of the indigo trade. It was proclaimed that indigo caused yarns to rot. This prohibition was repeated in 1594 and again in 1603. In France, Henry IV, in an edict of 1609, forbade under pain of death the use of "the false and pernicious Indian drug".

With the development of a chemical process to synthesize the pigment, both the woad and natural indigo industries collapsed in the first years of the 20th century. The last commercial harvest of woad until recent times occurred in 1932, in Lincolnshire, Britain. Small amounts of woad are now grown in the UK and France to supply craft dyers. The classic book about woad is The Woad Plant and its Dye by J. B. Hurry, Oxford University Press of 1930, which contains an extensive bibliography.

A method for producing blue dye from woad is described in The History of Woad and the Medieval Woad Vat (1998) ISBN 0-9534133-0-6.

Woad is biodegradable and safe in the environment. In Germany, there have been attempts to use it to protect wood against decay without applying dangerous chemicals. Production of woad is increasing in the UK for use in inks, particularly for inkjet printers, and dyes.

Invasive and noxious weed
In certain locations, the plant is classified as a non-native and invasive weed. It is listed as a noxious weed by the agriculture departments of several states in the western United States: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming. In Montana, it has been the target of an extensive, and largely successful, eradication attempt.

title: Isatis tinctoria


text:
Nokor Reach

"Nokor Reach" (also spelt Nokoreach; នគររាជ, ; lit. 'Majestic Kingdom') is the national anthem of Cambodia. It is based on a Cambodian folk tune and was written by Chuon Nath.

History
"Nokor Reach" originated from a folk poetry usually performed with chapei in ancient era for storytelling and to disclose any recent events.

The music of "Nokor Reach" was composed between 1938 and 1939 by Prince Norodom Suramarit during the reign of King Sisowath Monivong with help of Sir J. Jekyll and Sir François Perruchot, the Royal Palace's musical instructors. The lyrics were not finished until 20 July 1941 by Choun Nath, a few months after King Norodom Sihanouk's coronation. In the same year, it was adopted then reconfirmed in 1947 as a national anthem for the country.

In 1970, the monarchy was abolished by the Khmer Republic, thereby replacing the state's national anthem as well. After the communists' victory in 1975, former royalist symbols, including "Nokor Reach", were reinstated for a short while. The Khmer Rouge then replaced it with "Dap Prampi Mesa Chokchey" ("Glorious Seventeenth of April") in January 1976. After the royalist party FUNCINPEC defeated the former communists (Cambodian People's Party) in the 1993 elections, the royalist state anthem was restored.

Lyrics
"Nokor Reach" is a poem consisting of three verses and each verse consists of five lines. The first verse is considered to be official and is usually performed at most official settings.

Until the end of the French protectorate, a fourth verse praising the friendship between the Khmer and the French people was sung:

title: Nokor Reach


text:
Canton of Jura

The Republic and Canton of Jura (République et canton du Jura), less formally the Canton of Jura or Canton Jura, is the newest (founded in 1979) of the 26 Swiss cantons, located in the northwestern part of Switzerland. The capital is Delémont. It shares borders with the canton of Basel-Landschaft, the canton of Bern, the canton of Neuchatel, the canton of Solothurn, and the French régions of Bourgogne-Franche-Comté and Grand Est.

History
The king of Burgundy donated much of the land that today makes up canton Jura to the bishop of Basel in 999. The area was a sovereign state within the Holy Roman Empire for more than 800 years. After the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 the Jura had close ties with the Swiss Confederation. At the Congress of Vienna (1815), the Jura region became part of the canton of Bern. This act caused dissension. The Jura was French-speaking and Roman Catholic, whereas the canton of Bern was mostly German-speaking and Protestant.

After World War II, a separatist movement campaigned for a secession of Jura from the canton of Bern. After a long and partly militant struggle, which included some arson attacks by a youth organisation Les Béliers, a constitution was accepted in 1977. In 1978, the split was made official when the Swiss people voted in favour, and in 1979, the Jura joined the Swiss Confederation as a full member. The canton celebrated its independence from the canton of Bern on 23 June 1979. However, the southern part of the region, which is also predominantly French-speaking but has a Protestant majority, opted not to join the newly formed canton, instead remaining part of the canton of Bern. The area is now known as Bernese Jura. The word Jura, therefore, may refer either to canton Jura, or to the combined territory of canton Jura and the Bernese Jura. Switzerland as a whole often presents the latter from a touristic standpoint with documentation easily available in French or German.

On creation, the canton adopted the title Republic and Canton of Jura. Other cantons in Switzerland using the title "Republic and Canton" are Ticino, Geneva, and Neuchâtel. In each case, the title refers to the autonomy of the canton and its nominal sovereignty within the Swiss Confederation.

Since 1994, the question of the Jura region has again been controversial. In 2004, a federal commission proposed that the French-speaking southern Jura be united with the canton of Jura, as the language question now seems to be more important than the denominational one. A possible solution would be to create two half-cantons, as reunification with the creation of only a single canton would mean a complete restructuring of the Jura's current political system, with the cantonal capital being transferred from Delémont to Moutier.

On 18 June 2017, the town of Moutier voted to secede from the canton of Bern and join the canton of Jura in a referendum. On 17 September 2017, the nearby municipalities of Belprahon and Sorvilier conversely voted to remain in the canton of Bern. The vote in Moutier was later declared invalid. On 28 March 2021, Moutier voted to secede from Bern and join Jura again in an officially sanctioned referendum. The changeover is expected to be implemented by 2026.

Geography
Canton Jura lies in the northwest of Switzerland. It consists of parts of the Jura mountains in the south and the Jura plateau in the north. The Jura plateau is hilly and almost entirely limestone. The districts of Ajoie and Franches-Montagnes lie in this region. The term "Jurassic" is derived from the Jura Alps, strata of which give the era its name.

To the north and the west of the canton lies France. The canton of Solothurn and Basel-Landschaft are to east of the canton, while the canton of Bern bounds the Jura to the south. The rivers Doubs and the Birs drain the lands. The Doubs joins the Saône and then the Rhône, whereas the Birs is a tributary to the Rhine.

Districts
Jura is divided into 3 districts:
 * Delémont (, Delsberg) - capital: Delémont
 * Porrentruy (, Pruntrut) - capital: Porrentruy
 * Franches-Montagnes (, Freiberge) - capital: Saignelégier

Municipalities
There are 50 municipalities in the canton.

Federal election results

 * RDP before 2010
 * "*" indicates that the party was not on the ballot in this canton.
 * Part of the canton of Bern

Demographics
The population is almost entirely French-speaking. Just one municipality is German-speaking: Ederswiler. The majority of the population is Roman Catholic (75% ) with a small Protestant minority (13%). The population of the canton (as of ) was. , the population included 8,195 foreigners, or about 11.8% of the total population.

Historic population
The historical population is given in the following chart:

Economy
Agriculture is important in canton Jura. Cattle breeding is significant, but there is also horse breeding (the Franches-Montagnes is the last Swiss horse race). The main industries are watches, textiles and tobacco. There is a growing number of small and medium-sized businesses. In 2001, there were 3,578 people who worked in the primary economic sector. 14,109 people were employed in the secondary sector and 16,513 people were employed in the tertiary sector.

In 2001, the canton produced 0.9% of the entire Swiss national income while it had 0.9% of the total population. In 2005, the average share of the national income per resident of the canton was 38,070 CHF, while the national average was 54,031 CHF, or about 70% of the national income per person. Between 2003 and 2005, the average income grew at a rate of 6.4%, which was larger than the national rate of 5.3%. The average taxes in the canton are higher than in most cantons, in 2006, the tax index in the canton was 126.6 (Swiss average is 100.0). In 2006, the canton had the highest final tax rate on high wage earners (15.26% on a married couple with two children earning 150,000 CHF vs 11.6% nationally), though the tax rate was in the middle for lower-income families.

Culture
The eau de vie Damassine is one typical produce of the Ajoie area. (see Terroir Jura and Jura Infos)

title: Canton of Jura


text:
O Cameroon, Cradle of Our Forefathers

"Chant de Ralliement" ("The Rallying Song"), also known as "Ô Cameroun berceau de nos ancêtres" ("O Cameroon, Cradle of our Forefathers") is the national anthem of Cameroon and former national anthem of French Cameroon.

History
The song was composed in 1928 by, who also wrote the lyrics along with and Moïse Nyatte Nko'o, all while they were students at the École Normale of. It was used on an unofficial basis in French Cameroon beginning in 1948 before independence and officially adopted as the anthem of the territory in 1957. In 1960, the anthem was officially adopted by the new Republic of Cameroon.

In 1961, upon the accession of the former British Southern Cameroons to the Republic of Cameroon, an English version was written by Bernard Nsokika Fonlon, which was later officially adopted in 1978. In 1970, the French lyrics were changed to remove some words such as barbarie ("barbarianism") and sauvagerie ("savagery"), reference to France and the United Kingdom.

Lyrics
The first verse and chorus are considered to be the official lyrics and are most frequently played at important occasions.

In local languages
The anthem has also been translated into several local languages.

title: O Cameroon, Cradle of Our Forefathers


text:
Gaston Paris

Bruno Paulin Gaston Paris (9 August 1839 – 5 March 1903) was a French literary historian, philologist, and scholar specialized in Romance studies and medieval French literature. He was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1901, 1902, and 1903.

Biography
Gaston Paris was born under the July Monarchy at Avenay (Marne), the son of Paulin Paris (1800–1881), an important French scholar of medieval French literature. In his childhood, Gaston learned to appreciate Old French romances as poems and stories, and this early impulse for the study of Romance literature was placed on a solid basis by courses of study at the University of Bonn (1856), in the German Confederation, and at the École Nationale des Chartes, at the time under the rule of the Second French Empire.

Paris taught French grammar in a private school, later succeeding his father as professor of medieval French literature at the Collège de France in 1872; in 1876 he was admitted to the Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, and in 1896 to the Académie Française; in 1895 he was appointed director of the Collège de France. He won a reputation as a renowned scholar of Romance literature throughout Europe. In Bonn he had learnt the scientific methods of exact research, but besides being an accurate philologist he was a literary critic of great acumen and breadth of view, and brought a singularly clear mind to bear on his favourite study of medieval French literature. His Vie de saint Alexis (1872) broke new ground and provided a model for future editors of medieval texts. It included the original text and the variations of it dating from the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries. He contributed largely to the Histoire littéraire de la France, and with Paul Meyer published Romania, an academic journal devoted to the study of Romance literature.

In 1877 Gaston Paris was invited to Sweden for the 400th anniversary of the Upsala University, where he was made an honorary doctor. Before returning home he also visited Kristiania (Oslo) to take part in a celebration of the Norwegian philosopher Marcus Jacob Monrad. At the University of Oslo Gaston Paris also held a lecture about the two folktale collectors, Asbjørnsen and Moe, which he believed to be, besides the Brothers Grimm, the best re-tellers of the genre.

He received the German Order Pour le Mérite (civil class) in August 1902. Paris died in Cannes in 1903.

Works

 * Histoire poétique de Charlemagne (1865)
 * Les Plus anciens monuments de la langue française (1875)
 * Manuel d'ancien Français (1888)
 * Mystère de la passion by Arnoul Gréban (1878), in collaboration with Gaston Raynaud
 * Deux rédactions du roman des sept sages de Rome (1876)
 * a translation of the Grammaire des langues romanes (1874–1878) of Friedrich Diez, in collaboration with MM. Brachet and Morel-Fatio.
 * La Poésie du Moyen Âge (1885 and 1895)
 * Penseurs et poètes (1897)
 * Poèmes et légendes du moyen âge (1900)
 * François Villon (1901), an admirable monograph contributed to the "Grands Écrivains Français" series
 * Legendes du Moyen Âge (1903).
 * Summary of medieval French literature forms a volume of the Temple Primers.

Paris endeared himself to a wide circle of scholars outside his own country by his unfailing urbanity and generosity. In France, he trained a band of disciples at the École des Chartes and the Collège de France who continued the traditions of exact research that he established. Among them were Leopold Pannier; Marius Sepet, the author of Le Drame chrétien au Moyen Âge (1878) and Origines catholiques du théâtre moderne (1901); Charles Joret; Alfred Morel-Fatio; Gaston Raynaud, who was responsible for various volumes of the excellent editions published by the Société des anciens textes français; Arsène Darmesteter; and others.

title: Gaston Paris


text:
Beloved Isle Cayman

"Beloved Isle Cayman" is the official national song of the Cayman Islands, composed by Leila Ross-Shier in 1930. It became the official national song when the Cayman Islands Coat of Arms, Flag and National Song Law was passed in 1993.

As a British Overseas Territory, the official national anthem is "God Save the King".

title: Beloved Isle Cayman


text:
User:AWhiteC

I'm a long-time, low intensity Wikipedia editor.

My interests include history, nature, science, computers.

To do

 * 2013-03-12. Sort out White Park, if necessary.
 * 2013-11-25. Create page for Thomas Delaval.
 * 2013-11-25. Place better citations in Delaval.
 * 2013-11-25. Update Delavals from Askham, guided by own HTML document on Delavals.

Tips

 * To list all pages containing "abc", search for "intitle.abc".
 * Under the Indian numbering system, a lakh is 1,00,000 and a crore is 1,00,00,000.

Contributions
My contributions include:

 * Improvements to Branxton, Northumberland (June 2003 onward, my intro to editing)
 * Bio of Samuel Finer, the UK political scientist (February 2006)
 * Articles on Delaval (English aristocratic surname) and the representative assembly (March 2006)
 * Improvements to Seaton Delaval Hall including pictures (April 2006 onward)
 * Bio of Jonathan Israel, a British historian now in the States (June 2006)
 * Short article on Cauldron Snout, a cataract in upper Teesdale, northern England (July 2006)
 * Bio of Ralph Henry Carless Davis, a deceased British historian (July-October 2006)
 * Mini-bios of Oliver Shepard and Charles R. Burton, British explorers, and bits added to Transglobe Expedition (September 2008)
 * Mini-bio of Robert C. Allen, another British (economic) historian (December 2009)
 * Brief article on Metro Bank (UK) (July 2010)
 * Mini-bio of Jonathan Wood (hedge fund manager) (September 2010)
 * Short article on Building Societies Act 1986, a key part of the causation of the 2007-08 Crunch in the United Kingdom (January 2011)
 * Mini-bio of Thomas Harrison Hair, an artist famous for scenes of the coal and other industries in north-eastern England in the first half of the 19th century (January 2011)
 * Smallish article on Northumberlandia, a new landscape sculpture in northern England (August 2011)
 * Mini-bio of Leo Gershoy, an American historian of the French revolution (September 2011)
 * Brief article on the Catrail, an ancient linear earthwork in southern Scotland (September 2011)
 * Smallish article on the Natural History Society of Northumbria, stub for Gosforth Park Nature Reserve and adjustments to Gosforth Park-related articles (April 2012)
 * Some content in History of Geneva on its 18th century (having split that history content out of Geneva (June 2012)
 * Mini-bio of Alfred P. Smyth, a British mediaevalist (and links thereto) (June 2012)
 * Minor improvements to many articles, occasional overhauls of others, and occasional uploading of photos for articles (ongoing)
 * Watching several pages for vandalism, e.g. such vandalism honeypots as Filippo Brunelleschi, Cosimo de' Medici, Demographics of India, Demographics of Pakistan, Demographics of Bangladesh (ongoing)

title: User:AWhiteC


text:
La Renaissance

"La Renaissance" ("E Zingo" ) is the national anthem of the Central African Republic. It was adopted on 25 May 1960, shortly before the republic's independence on 13 August the same year. The words were written by then Prime Minister Barthélémy Boganda. The music was composed by French composer Herbert Pepper, who also composed the national anthem of Senegal, "Le Lion rouge". The song was also the national anthem during the Central African Empire (1976–1979).

Lyrics
The anthem has official lyrics in both French and the national language of Sango.

title: La Renaissance


text:
La Tchadienne

"La Tchadienne" ("Song of the Chadian", lit. '"The Chadian (Song)"') is the national anthem of Chad. Written by Louis Gidrol and his student group and composed by Paul Villard, it has been the official state anthem of Chad since it gained independence from France in January 1960.

History
The anthem was written, following a competition, by Jesuit father Louis Gidrol and his student group from the Saint Paul Boarding School in Fort-Archambault (the current city of Sarh). The music was composed by another Jesuit father, Paul Villard. It was adopted as the official state anthem of Chad upon gaining independence from France in January 1960.

Lyrics
The anthem comprises a chorus and four verses. Only the chorus and first verse constitute the official national anthem. The other three verses are barely known among young Chadians.

title: La Tchadienne


text:
Léon Gautier (historian)

Émile Théodore Léon Gautier (8 August 1832 – 25 August 1897) was a French literary historian.

He was born at Le Havre, France. He was educated at the École des Chartes, and became successively head of the archives of the département of Haute-Marne (1856) and archivist at the Imperial Archives in Paris (1859). In 1874 he became a professor of palaeography at the École des Chartes. He was elected a member of the Academy of Inscriptions in 1887, and became chief of the historical section of the National Archives in 1893.

Gautier rendered great services to the study of early French literature, the most important of his numerous works on medieval subjects being a critical text (Tours, 1872) with translation and introduction of the Chanson de Roland, and Les Épopées françaises (3 volumes, 1866–1867; 2nd edition, 5 volumes, 1878–1897, including a Bibliographie des chansons de geste).

Works

 * Œuvres poétiques d'Adam de Saint-Victor (1858/59) – Poetic works of Adam de Saint-Victor.
 * Les Épopées françaises (1865/68) – The French epics.
 * La Chanson de Roland (critical edition, 1872)
 * Portraits contemporains et questions actuelles (1873)
 * La Chevalerie (1884) – On chivalry.
 * Histoire de la poésie liturgique au Moyen Âge: les tropes (1886) – History on liturgical poetry of the Middle Ages.
 * Portraits du XIXe siècle I. Poètes et romanciers, (1894/95)
 * Portraits du XIXe siècle. Historiens et critiques, (1894/95)
 * Portraits du XIXe siècle. Nos adversaires et nos amis, (1894/95)
 * Bibliographie des chansons de geste (1897).
 * La France sous Philippe-Auguste (1899)

title: Léon Gautier (historian)


text:
Platycercinae

Platycercinae is a subfamily of birds belonging to the family Psittaculidae that inhabit Oceania. It consists of two tribes, the ground parrots and allies (Pezoporini) and the many species of broad-tailed parrot (Platycercini).

Genera
Tribe Pezoporini: Tribe Platycercini:
 * Genus Neophema
 * Blue-winged parrot, Neophema chrysostoma
 * Elegant parrot, Neophema elegans
 * Rock parrot, Neophema petrophila
 * Orange-bellied parrot, Neophema chrysogaster
 * Turquoise parrot, Neophema pulchella
 * Scarlet-chested parrot, Neophema splendida
 * Genus Neopsephotus — sometimes included in Neophema
 * Bourke's parrot, Neopsephotus bourkii
 * Genus Pezoporus
 * Ground parrot, Pezoporus wallicus
 * Night parrot, Pezoporus occidentalis
 * Genus Prosopeia
 * Crimson shining parrot, Prosopeia splendens
 * Masked shining parrot, Prosopeia personata
 * Maroon shining parrot, Prosopeia tabuensis
 * Genus Eunymphicus
 * Horned parakeet, Eunymphicus cornutus
 * Ouvea parakeet, Eunymphicus uvaeensis
 * Genus Cyanoramphus
 * Black-fronted parakeet, Cyanoramphus zealandicus†
 * Society parakeet, Cyanoramphus ulietanus†
 * Lord Howe parakeet, Cyanoramphus subflavescens†
 * Antipodes parakeet, Cyanoramphus unicolor
 * Red-crowned parakeet, Cyanoramphus novaezelandiae
 * Macquarie parakeet, Cyanoramphus erythrotis†
 * Reischek's parakeet, Cyanoramphus hochstetteri
 * Yellow-crowned parakeet, Cyanoramphus auriceps
 * Chatham parakeet, Cyanoramphus forbesi
 * Malherbe's parakeet, Cyanoramphus malherbi
 * New Caledonian parakeet Cyanoramphus saisseti
 * Norfolk parakeet Cyanoramphus cookii
 * Genus Platycercus
 * Western rosella, Platycercus icterotis
 * Crimson rosella, Platycercus elegans
 * Adelaide rosella, Platycercus (elegans) adelaidae
 * Yellow rosella, Platycercus (elegans) flaveolus
 * Green rosella, Platycercus caledonicus
 * Pale-headed rosella, Platycercus adscitus
 * Eastern rosella, Platycercus eximius
 * Northern rosella, Platycercus venustus
 * Genus Barnardius — sometimes included in Platycercus
 * Australian ringneck, Barnardius zonarius
 * Genus Purpureicephalus
 * Red-capped parrot, Purpureicephalus spurius
 * Genus Lathamus
 * Swift parrot, Lathamus discolor
 * Genus Northiella — often included in Psephotus
 * Eastern bluebonnet, Northiella haematogaster
 * Naretha bluebonnet, Northiella narethae
 * Genus Psephotus
 * Red-rumped parrot, Psephotus haematonotus
 * Genus Psephotellus
 * Mulga parrot, Psephotellus varius
 * Golden-shouldered parrot, Psephotellus chrysopterygius
 * Hooded parrot, Psephotellus dissimilis
 * Paradise parrot, Psephotellus pulcherrimus†

title: Platycercinae


text:
Friedrich Christian Diez

Friedrich Christian Diez (15 March 1794 – 29 May 1876) was a German philologist. The two works on which his fame rests are the Grammar of the Romance Languages (published 1836–1844), and the Etymological Dictionary of the Romance Languages (1853, and later editions). He spent most of his career at University of Bonn.

Biography
Diez was born at Giessen, in Hessen-Darmstadt. He was educated first at the gymnasium and then at the university of his native town and Göttingen. There he studied classics under Friedrich Gottlieb Welcker who had just returned from a two years' residence in Italy to fill the chair of archaeology and Greek literature. It was Welcker who kindled in him a love of Italian poetry, and thus gave the first outlet to his genius. In 1813 he joined the Hesse corps as a volunteer and served in the French campaign. Next year he returned to his books, and this short taste of military service was the only break in a long and uneventful life of literary labours.

At his parents' desire he applied himself for a short time to law, but a visit to Goethe in 1818 gave a new direction to his studies, and determined his future career. Goethe had been reading Raynouard's Selections from the Romance Poets, and advised the young scholar to explore the rich mine of Provençal literature which the French savant had opened up. This advice was eagerly followed, and henceforth Diez devoted himself to Romance literature. He thus became the founder of Romance philology.

After supporting himself for some years by private teaching, he moved in 1822 to University of Bonn, where he held the position of privatdozent. In 1823 he published his first work, An Introduction to Romance Poetry; in the following year appeared The Poetry of the Troubadours, and in 1829 The Lives and Works of the Troubadours. In 1830 he was called to the chair of modern literature.

The rest of his life was mainly occupied with the composition of the two great works on which his fame rests, the Grammar of the Romance Languages (1836–1844), and the Etymological Dictionary of the Romance Languages (1853, and later editions). In these two works Diez did for the Romance group of languages what Jacob Grimm did for the Germanic family.

The earliest French philologists, such as Perion and Henri Estienne, had sought to discover the origin of French in Greek and even in Hebrew. For more than a century Gilles Ménage's Etymological Dictionary (1650, 1670) held the field without a rival. Considering the time at which it was written, Ménage's was a meritorious work, but philology was then in the infant stage, and many of Ménage's derivations (such as that of "rat" from the Latin "mus," or of "haricot" from "faba") have since become bywords among philologists. A great advance was made by Raynouard, who by his critical editions of the works of the Troubadours, published in the first years of the 19th century, laid the foundations on which Diez afterwards built.

The difference between Diez's method and that of his predecessors is well stated by him in the preface to his dictionary. In sum, it is the difference between science and guess-work. The scientific method is to follow implicitly the discovered principles and rules of phonology, and not to swerve a foot's breadth from them unless plain, actual exceptions shall justify it; to follow the genius of the language, and by cross-questioning to elicit its secrets; to gauge each letter and estimate the value which attaches to it in each position; and lastly to possess the true philosophic spirit which is prepared to welcome any new fact, though it may modify or upset the most cherished theory.

Works
Such is the historical method which Diez pursues in his grammar and dictionary. To collect and arrange facts is, as he tells us, the sole secret of his success, and he adds in other words the apophthegm of Newton, "hypotheses non fingo". The introduction to the grammar consists of two parts: the first discusses the Latin, Greek and Teutonic elements common to the Romance languages; the second treats of the six dialects separately, their origin and the elements peculiar to each. The grammar itself is divided into four books, on phonology, on flexion, on the formation of words by composition and derivation, and on syntax.

His dictionary is divided into two parts. The first contains words common to two at least of the three principal groups of Romance—Italian and Romanian, Spanish and Portuguese, and Provençal and French. The Italian, as nearest the original, is placed at the head of each article. The second part treats of words peculiar to one group. There is no separate glossary of Wallachian.

title: Friedrich Christian Diez