text:
Talk:Left-foot braking

Untitled Comment
In relation to a driver accustomed to using their left foot soley for clutch use I would agree that it applies even to cars which don't have a "heavy" clutch as mentioned in the Corvette example below. It's not so much that the clutch on your car needs to be heavy when an inability to left brake effectively will occur, it's more a case of how heavy your thottle pedal is as it's very rare that the force needed for both clutch and throttle are the same. Therefore attempting to left brake even in a Nissan Primera with a relatively "light" clutch compared to say a Corvette, the same result can occur; namely a left leg that is stronger than the right one which can result in an unexpected rapid decelaration as you press the brake with the force you would normally use for a heavier clutch. In summary the left leg is accustomed to a "heavy" clutch, the right leg is accustomed to a "light" throttle; and so when both legs are tested to press the same pedal (the brake) the left leg will through habit press harder than the right leg.

If left foot braking applies exclusively to fwd cars, why did Peter Brock use it so often at (for e.g.) Bathurst? Tannin

It is completely untrue that left-foot braking is exclusively for front-wheel drive cars. Almost all F1 drivers use left-foot braking, many having had much experience with it in karting, which requires this technique. With the advent of F1-style computer-controlled shifting in performance cars, eliminating the clutch pedal and thereby the use of the left foot for shifting, this technique will become more and more accessible for ordinary drivers.

 * I have added the other use of left-foot braking. 999 16:33, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Isn't the two uses quite different? In the rally version you push both pedals at once, in the F1 you just use the left foot to break to avoid having to move the foot. // Liftarn

 * It is STILL not true about the rally car use - 4WD drivers use left foot braking too, almost exclusively. //Magnus

Street Use
Added citations that discourage left foot braking. However the article should recognize that there is debate about the topic, but a proper citation is needed. Unfortunately I was unable to find any worthwhile sources to cite regarding this, just various message boards discussions. If someone can find an article, government website, training academy, or any proper source that either states left foot braking is okay (in some or all circumstances) or makes mention of the debate, that would be perfect. Tmpst 21:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The article should distinguish between two cases.
 * left-foot braking as a an alternative to right-foot braking for simple deceleration
 * left-foot braking as a method of adjusting the vehicle's handling during cornering
 * There may well be a school of thought that says the first is a bad idea (though in principle there's no reason it should matter which foot is used). But the second is quite definitely a viable technique for overcoming inherent handling characteristics of the vehicle, such as FWD understeer, and should not be discouraged.
 * --Tedd 06:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the comment about it providing no benefits on public roads (from the intro). The benefits provided on track are present also on public roads, whether a person should be seeking out those benefits on public roads is another matter entirely and also quite subjective. It could be argued that the benefits of decreased delay between acceleration and breaking, and the weight transfer benefits, can be put to good use at legal speeds. In fact, with a skilled driver, LFB might be the 1 foot difference between a close call and an accident (thinking about the decreased delay here). Tmpst 20:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why LFB is potentialy dangerous for everyday street use, including panic situations. The argument about "rapid acceleration" seems at least wrong to me. I think the article must be edited so that it will reflect the debate around safety. If noone disagrees I will try to find some sources and edit it myself. By the way, some of the references are missing, the article needs cleanup. --racergr 23:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

LFB and Turbo Spool
I was under the impression that ALL rallye drivers used left foot braking before the advent of misfiring systems to spool up the turbo mid-turn. I suppose you're supposed to be able to balance out the acceleration and braking while increasing your revs at the same time, just as if you were accelerating, thus, spooling the turbo.

And, of course, it works with large turbos on street and/or racing to break the boost threshold faster. Automatic cars, in particular, utilise this technique, especially with a large turbo while drag racing. I think that LFB in regards to turbo spool should be included in this article.

 * It's somewhat moot in rallying, as nearly all WRC-level cars use an anti-lag system. Counterfit 08:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

LFB with auto transmission
The changes made in May by SpinyNorman introduced what seem to me have been an POV problem: this section opened with the unqualified statement thst "This practice is not recommended for drivers of road cars."

There are two, conflicting, schools of thought on the routine use of LFB when driving an automatic, and one inbetween (LFB for low-speed maneouvring, but not at other times). Wikipedia should try to fairly represent both viewpoints. Unfortunately, SpinyNorman's changes left the article seriously unbalanced.

I don't know if what I have done now is as balanced as it should be, but I think that this section is a lot better than it was. --BrownHairedGirl 14:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that the practice of LFB in and of itself is neither safe nor dangerous. However, I think that certain applications of LFB are safe or dangerous. For instance, chances are that a professional racer practicing LFB is safe, where a sixteen-year-old novice in an unfamiliar car in rush-hour traffic is not safe.

 * Perhaps we need to reflect this.

 * --BarnacleKB 01:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * That sounds like a good idea, if you can find sources to cite. But I think it would be inappropriate for any of us to simply editorialise on our own judgments. --BrownHairedGirl 08:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you're right. Any references to it being safe or dangerous need to be removed unless properly cited. --BarnacleKB 22:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Left-foot braking is considered dangerous by government driving organizations in the US, Canada, UK and Europe. The reasons are as simple as they are obvious - in an emergency situation, the "panic reaction" is to extend both legs and if one of them is on the throttle, that means unintended acceleration.  Remember the trouble Audi had with "Sudden Acceleration Incidents"?  It wasn't, as some had assumed, the placement of the pedals or some bug in the electronic fuel-injection system.  It was the fact that, as the lowest priced European sports sedan in a time when European sports sedans were trendy, it was bought by a lot of people who used this preposterous left-foot braking technique but weren't used to cars with so much power.  So, when they panicked and floored the accelerator, the car leapt out of control. --SpinyNorman 20:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * SpinyNorman, you clearly have strong views about LFB. However, lots of people do use it safely, and there are two sides to the debate, so I have now restored my previous version of that section.
 * This is because, unfortunately, your edits to the article are entirely one-sided, and your comments on the safety benefits of LFB in low-speed maneouvring are simly wrong: have you ever driven an automatic car? Not all automatics creep (the new VW/Audi DFG garboxes don't), and those that do creep often require use of the accelerator pedal as well.
 * As I wrote above, if you have any sources to cite on the merits/demerits fo LFB, let's see them -- but the only reference above is one I added. But in the meantine, please stop adding unsourced POV material: statements such "This practice is not recommended" have no place in Wikipedia unles they have a source.  It would be fine to write "this practice is not recommended by X", but for that you would need sources: Wkikpedia is not a place for original research.  --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * If you can find a website or something where it says Left-foot braking is considered dangerous add it; or if you find where US, Canada, UK and Europe driving orgs state it. Outside Center 19:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I have once again edited tis article to restore the argument in favour of LFB with auto transmissions which had been removed and replaced with unsourced POV assertions. There are two points of view here, folks: WP:NPOV requires that both be presented fairly, and sourced.
 * There is a clear argument (backed up with accident reports) for using LFB whilst maneouvring. Where anyone thinks that argument is "correct" is not the issue on wikipedia: our job is to present both sides of the debate fairly, with references.  Unsourced assertions and removal of opposing sources does not comply with NPOV.  --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

 * LFB is discouraged because it is undesireable. I personally wouldn't go so far as to say the practice is dangerous in and of itself (except in a panic situation).  However, the fact that VAG have deliberately implemented technology to prevent it and the fact that it is discouraged by driving instructors and car manufacturers the world over should be taken into consideration.  Let me ask you something BrownHairedGirl, do you use LFB?  --Lee Vonce 16:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "discouraged because it is undesireable". Sources?
 * "I personally wouldn't go so far as to say". With all due respect, neither your opinion nor mine is relevant here.
 * I have reinstated the text which you removed about those who advocate LFB. Please do not remove it, or I will seek admin intervention. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

For neewbies, lfb will require familiarization. I started LFB in the 50's when AT were becoming popular, and many car manufacturers made the brake pedal extra wide to facititate LFB. I am speaking of automatic transmission cars. The comment that all manufacturers frown on LFB is erronous. Most american cars are auto now, and most brake pedals are wider than manual transmission models. LFB is a simple procedure that is easily learned and very useful and you will never find someone accidently hitting the gas pedal when their foot slips off the brake pedal with LFB. With about 60 years experience with it, its normal for me - if you don't like it, don't do it. However - reflexes are much faster with LFB and if you look, you will see why. This being my own view on LFB, If the person has never done it before ever, trying to pratice in rush hour traffic is not advised by me. But just trying to work the brake with the left foot on a off road, stoping at red lights and slowing down with it will get you used to driving using LFB. I autocross and Daily drive using LFB. the Problem about people extending out both feet is mostly l because of the lack car control they have in different situations. When I first started trying it, it was weird, the left foot can't vary its pressure on the pedal well enough, which means either you get on the brakes to much or not enough, you just have to Keep trying at it. --Justin aka TechSalvager —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.151.82.48 (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

From my personal experience, I can swear that if I was not using my left foot for braking, I would have bounced other cars numerous times already. I had so many near hits in the past, especially in my early days of driving. Nothing can beat the instantaneous braking response in emergency situations than having the left foot hovering over the brakes ready to engage. My right foot lifts off the accelerator while my left foot simultaneously moves onto the brakes. Contrary to what others say, emergency situations do not cause me to step on the accelerator. If fact it becomes an automatic reaction to release the accelerator with one foot and step on the brakes with the other. It's so programmed into my mind. Thinking about it, if the claim that emergencies cause both feet to engage, wouldn't that cause more accidents with right foot braking instead? The logic is that the driver will engage the accelerator before getting time to shift his foot over to the brakes, while with left foot braking even though the right foot is on the accelerator, the left foot on the brakes can still cause deceleration. Another advantage of left foot braking is that I get precision control of the brakes. I can apply exactly the right amount of force to get slow down as needed without stopping suddenly. That's because the left foot only has one job - control the brakes. Finally, the main reason I started using left foot braking was because I could never get my right foot in the exact position so that it was comfortable while both on the accelerator and on the brake positions. There were a lot of times when half my right foot ended up resting on the edge of the brake pedal, creating the possibility of slipping off and reducing my ability to get precise control. I was worried that there would be the day there's an emergency, my right foot will slip off, hit the side of the brake pedal or not rest on the pedal properly to get the braking I need. Left foot braking solved everything. I cannot imagine driving without using my left foot. Openminded00 (talk) 13:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Hill starts
Living in a very hilly city I was taught to use left-foot braking in an automatic when preparing to set off uphill from a junction to prevent the car rolling backwards in the interval between letting go of the brake and pressing the accelerator. The automatic equivalent of holding the car on the clutch to set off smoothly. I have been in situations where if I hadn't done this it would have resulted in rolling back into the car behind me. 82.34.74.15 (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

 * See: Heel and toe, and Tailgating --zed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.89.40.101 (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Accident stats
Is there any truth to the rumor that left foot braking causes more accident? If so, where can I find statistics and include a section of that in the article? I would like to help. - Pernambuco 00:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Clutch Pedal force
"Also, when the left foot is often used for depressing the clutch pedal this generally requires more force than operating the brake." I suppose if you drive a Corvette, this is true, but I have to wonder how many cars have that heavy of a clutch pedal. Counterfit 08:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not how much force is required, but how much force drivers are used to. I think what it should say is that drivers are habituated to quickly pressing the clutch all the way down, and that this instinct could cause them to brake much more violently than intended if/when they try to lfb without thinking about it. Tmpst 02:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The Clutch is normal?
Whoever wrote this article seems to think the clutch is normal. Can anyone supply proof that it's normal? Din gold 02:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure it's "normal"
What seems "normal" in one place (for example, USA) can seem as something of an oddity for the rest of the world (notwithstanding Hollywood making New York / Los Angeles the Center of the World). Manual transmissions, even in the 21st century, are still considered the "normal" (non-optional) type of transmission for a passenger vehicle. The exception being, of course, the United States of America (only since the 1950s) and select few other countries worldwide.

For example, in Europe, cars with manual transmissions account for over 75% of new (as of 2008) models, as opposed as only 12% for auto trannies.

[http://www.dctfacts.com/hmStory4a.asp - West European Light Vehicle Production by Transmission Type]

Flurry (talk) 22:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

History and invention of
It seems that there is some agreement that Rauno Aaltonen has been involved in wider application of left foot braking. However, as left foot braking is still fairly obvious thing to do in many situations that existed already well before Mr. Aaltonen's racing career (for example automatic transmission or driving a formula/kart), some additional references would be valuable to confirm if Mr. Aaltonen actually invented the method, applied it to new type of situations/vehicles (rallying and/or fwd vehicles) or just succesfully and extensively used it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.66.174.253 (talk) 14:30, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Broken Link
Hi, the link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2001/05/12/emrip12.xml is broken and i couldn't find the right one, please help! Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.114.62.71 (talk) 08:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments on the pages.
I am new to this so if I violate any specific rules, I apologize in advance. My goal is to attempt to clarify and through clarification, save lives. Left Foot Braking For Automatic Transmission Automobiles	Nov 2013

Left foot braking is a braking technique used by some drivers to prevent parking lot crashes, shorten panic stop braking distances and improve automobile braking in general. 1.	Parking lot crashes: A recent study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of 2400 gas pedal accidents in North Carolina (driver attempts to move the right foot from the gas pedal position over to the left foot area where the brake pedal is located but hits the gas pedal instead), tend to occur more frequently but not exclusively among drivers over the age of 76 and under the age of 20. 2.	Highway panic stops and automobile braking in general: Lack of concentration by most drivers is the main cause of rear end collisions and pedestrian accidents. Milliseconds count in this situations and undocumented reports indicate that a car braking via the left foot braking method will stop in 30 feet (9 meters) shorter distance when braking from a speed of 37 mph (60 kph), than a car where braking is attempted with the right foot.

What constitutes left foot braking? Left foot braking must first of all deal with the anthropometrics of seating. Simply put the driver must be able to comfortably sit for long periods of time and at a moment’s notice be able to stop the vehicle in a safe distance. 1.	The driver’s seat is adjusted so that the heel of the right foot, which is responsible for the GO mode, rests comfortably on the floor of the car, sharing a portion of the weight of the right leg. The balance of the weight of the right leg is supported by the driver’s seat. The right foot is then in a neutral position neither causing the vehicle to accelerate or decelerate until activated. 2.	The heel of the left foot which is responsible for the STOP mode should also be resting comfortably on the floor supported in the same fashion as the right leg. Again the paramount consideration is that the left foot is in a neutral position, not touching the brake pedal. 3.	It may not always be possible to exactly achieve the objectives of point 1 and 2. Some vehicles do not have adjustable brake pedals so a compromise between the left leg and the right leg positions may be required. The priority must be given to the left leg which must always be in a comfortable position over many hours but always at the ready for a slow down or stop action. The position of the right leg may be compromised from a response and comfort point of view as GO is a lower priority than STOP. Discomfort with the right leg (e.g. toe vs. full foot monitoring or accelerating) can be eliminated by (weather permitting) cruise control. Cruise control also reduces the amount of instrument panel monitoring required and eliminates speeding tickets.

Myths or criticisms of left foot braking:

1.	There are drivers who claim they have witnessed old slow drivers with their brake lights on and therefore they must be drivers using the left foot braking method, prematurely wearing out their brakes. No scientific records exist to back up this assertion and it is more likely that a lazy right foot was the culprit. It should also be pointed out that a properly trained driver would be following the requirements of left foot driving and therefore the cruise control would cancel the GO mode, thereby alerting the driver. 2.	It has been said that the relationship between the brain and the left leg is not as good as with the right leg. Therefore the left leg does not have the sensitivity required for smooth braking. It is of interest to note that the manoeuver that in the past required the most sensitivity was the engagement of the clutch, which was done with the left foot. 3.	It has also been said that with the left foot braking method, the left foot is only used 35% of the time vs. 85% of the time for the right foot and therefore the left foot does not have the sensitivity for smooth breaking. Unfortunately in most cities with horrendous stop and go traffic this probably is not a legitimate criticism or myth. 4.	Not being able to use the driver’s left foot to stabilize one’s body in a panic braking situation has been also stated as a disadvantage of left foot braking. No records exist of any tests proving this criticism but most car seat belts are comparable to aircraft pilot seat belts and aircraft manoeuvers are certainly more violent. 5.	At the time of the unintended acceleration situation it was suspected that some drivers had depressed the gas pedal and the brake pedal at the same time. If this action was the cause of the unintended acceleration then left foot braking would be at a distinct advantage. However the United States Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Administration has mandated that all passenger vehicles have controls that mandate the input to the brake pedal must override the input to the gas pedal so this is no longer an issue. 6.	Drivers that utilize left foot braking may be more susceptible to rear end collisions. Because of the shorter panic stopping distances this may be true, however the same may be said for cars with automatic breaking systems and future cars of the Google design.

References: 1.	Human Dimension & interior Space by Julius Panero and Martin Zelnik. 2.	National Highway Traffic Safety Report 3.	U. S. Department of Transportation National Highway Traffic Administration, 49 CFR, Part 571 (Docket # NHTSA-2012-0038), RIN 2127-AK18. 4.	Ross Bentley Driving Unlimited, 2002, Tip # 21. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twcarnduff (talk • contribs) 21:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Left-foot braking


text:
Mushroom cloud

A mushroom cloud is a distinctive mushroom-shaped flammagenitus cloud of debris, smoke, and usually condensed water vapour resulting from a large explosion. The effect is most commonly associated with a nuclear explosion, but any sufficiently energetic detonation or deflagration will produce a similar effect. They can be caused by powerful conventional weapons, like thermobaric weapons such as the ATBIP and GBU-43/B MOAB. Some volcanic eruptions and impact events can produce natural mushroom clouds.

Mushroom clouds result from the sudden formation of a large volume of lower-density gases at any altitude, causing a Rayleigh–Taylor instability. The buoyant mass of gas rises rapidly, resulting in turbulent vortices curling downward around its edges, forming a temporary vortex ring that draws up a central column, possibly with smoke, debris, condensed water vapor, or a combination of these, to form the "mushroom stem". The mass of gas plus entrained moist air eventually reaches an altitude where it is no longer of lower density than the surrounding air; at this point, it disperses, drifting back down, which results in fallout following a nuclear blast. The stabilization altitude depends strongly on the profiles of the temperature, dew point, and wind shear in the air at and above the starting altitude.

Early accounts and origins of term
Although the term appears to have been coined in the early 1950s, mushroom clouds generated by explosions were being described centuries before the Atomic Age. A contemporary aquatint by an unknown artist of the 1782 Franco-Spanish attack on Gibraltar shows one of the attacking force's floating batteries exploding with a mushroom cloud after the British defenders set it ablaze by firing heated shot.

In 1798, Gerhard Vieth published a detailed and illustrated account of a cloud in the neighborhood of Gotha that was "not unlike a mushroom in shape". The cloud had been observed by legation counselor Lichtenberg a few years earlier on a warm summer afternoon. It was interpreted as an irregular meteorological cloud and seemed to have caused a storm with rain and thunder from a new dark cloud that developed beneath it. Lichtenberg stated to have later observed somewhat similar clouds, but none as remarkable.

The 1917 Halifax Explosion produced a mushroom cloud. In 1930 Olaf Stapledon in his novel Last and First Men imagines the first demonstration of an atomic weapon "clouds of steam from the boiling sea.. a gigantic mushroom of steam and debris". The Times published a report on 1 October 1937 of a Japanese attack on Shanghai, China, that generated "a great mushroom of smoke". During World War II, the destruction of the Japanese battleship Yamato produced a mushroom cloud.

The atomic bomb cloud over Nagasaki, Japan, was described in The Times of London of 13 August 1945 as a "huge mushroom of smoke and dust". On 9 September 1945, The New York Times published an eyewitness account of the Nagasaki bombing, written by William L. Laurence, the official newspaper correspondent of the Manhattan Project, who accompanied one of the three aircraft that made the bombing run. He wrote of the bomb producing a "pillar of purple fire" out of the top of which came "a giant mushroom that increased the height of the pillar to a total of 45,000 feet".

In 1946, the Operation Crossroads nuclear bomb tests were described as having a "cauliflower" cloud, but a reporter present also spoke of "the mushroom, now the common symbol of the atomic age". Mushrooms have traditionally been associated both with life and death, food and poison, which made them a more powerful symbolic connection than, say, the "cauliflower" cloud.

Physics
Mushroom clouds are formed by many sorts of large explosions under Earth's gravity, but they are best known for their appearance after nuclear detonations. Without gravity, or without a thick atmosphere, the explosive's by-product gases would remain spherical. Nuclear weapons are usually detonated above the ground (not upon impact, because some of the energy would be dissipated by the ground motions), to maximize the effect of their spherically expanding fireball and blast wave. Immediately after the detonation, the fireball begins to rise into the air, acting on the same principle as a hot-air balloon.

One way to analyze the motion, once the hot gas has cleared the ground sufficiently, is as a "spherical cap bubble", as this gives agreement between the rate of rise and observed diameter.

As it rises, a Rayleigh–Taylor instability is formed, and air is drawn upwards and into the cloud (similar to the updraft of a chimney), producing strong air currents known as "afterwinds", while, inside the head of the cloud, the hot gases rotate in a toroidal shape. When the detonation altitude is low enough, these afterwinds will draw in dirt and debris from the ground below to form the stem of the mushroom cloud.

After the mass of hot gases reaches its equilibrium level, the ascent stops, and the cloud starts flattening to the characteristic mushroom shape, usually aided by surface growth due to the decaying turbulence.

Description
At the moment of a nuclear explosion, a fireball is formed. The ascending, roughly spherical mass of hot, incandescent gases changes shape due to atmospheric friction, and the surface of the fireball is cooled by energy radiation, turning from a sphere to a violently rotating spheroidal vortex. A Rayleigh–Taylor instability is formed as the cool air underneath initially pushes the bottom fireball gases into an inverted cup shape. This causes turbulence and a vortex that sucks more air into the center, creating external afterwinds and further cooling the fireball. The speed of rotation slows as the fireball cools and may stop entirely during later phases. The vaporized parts of the weapon and ionized air cool into visible gases, forming a cloud; the white-hot vortex core becomes yellow, then dark red, then loses visible incandescence. With further cooling, the bulk of the cloud fills in as atmospheric moisture condenses. As the cloud ascends and cools, its buoyancy lessens, and its ascent slows. If the size of the fireball is comparable to the atmospheric density scale height, the whole cloud rise will be ballistic, overshooting a large volume of overdense air to greater altitudes than the final stabilization altitude. Significantly smaller fireballs produce clouds with buoyancy-governed ascent.

After reaching the tropopause (the bottom of the region of strong static stability) the cloud tends to slow and spread out. If it contains sufficient energy, the central part may continue rising up into the stratosphere as an analog of a standard thunderstorm. A mass of air ascending from the troposphere to the stratosphere leads to the formation of acoustic gravity waves, virtually identical to those created by intense stratosphere-penetrating thunderstorms. Smaller-scale explosions penetrating the tropopause generate waves of higher frequency, classified as infrasound. The explosion raises a large amount of moisture-laden air from lower altitudes. As the air rises, its temperature drops and its water vapour first condenses as water droplets and later freezes as ice crystals. The phase change releases latent heat, heating the cloud and driving it to yet higher altitudes. The heads of the clouds consist of highly radioactive particles, primarily the fission products and other weapon debris aerosols, and are usually dispersed by the wind, though weather patterns (especially rain) can produce nuclear fallout. The droplets of condensed water gradually evaporate, leading to the cloud's apparent disappearance. The radioactive particles, however, remain suspended in the air, and the invisible cloud continues depositing fallout along its path.

A mushroom cloud undergoes several phases of formation. The shape of the cloud is influenced by the local atmospheric conditions and wind patterns. The fallout distribution is predominantly a downwind plume. However, if the cloud reaches the tropopause, it may spread against the wind, because its convection speed is higher than the ambient wind speed. At the tropopause, the cloud shape is roughly circular and spread out. The initial color of some radioactive clouds can be colored red or reddish-brown, due to presence of nitrogen dioxide and nitric acid, formed from initially ionized nitrogen, oxygen, and atmospheric moisture. In the high-temperature, high-radiation environment of the blast, ozone is also formed. It is estimated that each megaton of yield produces about 5,000 tons of nitrogen oxides. A higher-yield detonation can carry the nitrogen oxides from the burst high enough in atmosphere to cause significant depletion of the ozone layer. Yellow and orange hues have also been described. This reddish hue is later obscured by the white colour of water/ice clouds, condensing out of the fast-flowing air as the fireball cools, and the dark colour of smoke and debris sucked into the updraft. The ozone gives the blast its characteristic corona discharge-like smell.
 * Early time, the first ~20 seconds, when the fireball forms and the fission products mix with the material aspired from the ground or ejected from the crater. The condensation of evaporated ground occurs in first few seconds, most intensely during fireball temperatures between 3500 and 4100 K.
 * Rise and stabilization phase, 20 seconds to 10 minutes, when the hot gases rise up and early large fallout is deposited.
 * Late time, until about 2 days later, when the airborne particles are being distributed by wind, deposited by gravity, and scavenged by precipitation.

The distribution of radiation in the mushroom cloud varies with the yield of the explosion, type of weapon, fusion–fission ratio, burst altitude, terrain type, and weather. In general, lower-yield explosions have about 90% of their radioactivity in the mushroom head and 10% in the stem. In contrast, megaton-range explosions tend to have most of their radioactivity in the lower third of the mushroom cloud. The fallout may appear as dry, ash-like flakes, or as particles too small to be visible; in the latter case, the particles are often deposited by rain. Large amounts of newer, more radioactive particles deposited on skin can cause beta burns, often presenting as discolored spots and lesions on the backs of exposed animals. The fallout from the Castle Bravo test had the appearance of white dust and was nicknamed Bikini snow; the tiny white flakes resembled snowflakes, stuck to surfaces, and had a salty taste. In Operation Wigwam, 41.4% of the fallout consisted of irregular opaque particles, slightly over 25% of particles with transparent and opaque areas, approximately 20% of microscopic marine organisms, and 2% of microscopic radioactive threads of unknown origin.

Differences with detonation types
With surface and near-surface air bursts, the amount of debris lofted into the air decreases rapidly with increasing burst altitude. At a burst altitude of approximately 7meters/kiloton$1/3$, a crater is not formed, and correspondingly lower amounts of dust and debris are produced. The fallout-reducing height, above which the primary radioactive particles consist mainly of the fine fireball condensation, is approximately 55meters/kiloton$1/3$. However, even at these burst altitudes, fallout may be formed by other mechanisms. Airbursts produce white, steamy stems, while surface bursts produce gray to brown stems because large amounts of dust, dirt, soil, and debris are sucked into the mushroom cloud. Surface bursts produce dark mushroom clouds containing irradiated material from the ground in addition to the bomb and its casing and therefore produce more radioactive fallout, with larger particles that readily deposit locally.

A detonation high above the ground may produce a mushroom cloud without a stem. A double mushroom, with two levels, can be formed under certain conditions. For example, the Buster-Jangle Sugar shot formed the first head from the blast, followed by another one generated by the heat from the hot, freshly formed crater.

A detonation significantly below ground level or deep below the water (for instance, a nuclear depth charge) does not produce a mushroom cloud, as the explosion causes the vaporization of a huge amount of earth or water, creating a bubble which then collapses in on itself; in the case of a less deep underground explosion, this produces a subsidence crater. An underwater detonation near the surface may produce a pillar of water which collapses to form a cauliflower-like shape, which is easily mistaken for a mushroom cloud (such as in the well-known pictures of the Crossroads Baker test). An underground detonation at low depth produces a mushroom cloud and a base surge, two different distinct clouds. The amount of radiation vented into the atmosphere decreases rapidly with increasing detonation depth.

Cloud composition
The cloud contains three main classes of material: the remains of the weapon and its fission products, the material acquired from the ground (only significant for burst altitudes below the fallout-reducing altitude, which depends on the weapon yield), and water vapour. The bulk of the radiation contained in the cloud consists of the nuclear fission products; neutron activation products from the weapon materials, air, and the ground debris form only a minor fraction. Neutron activation starts during the neutron burst at the instant of the blast, and the range of this neutron burst is limited by the absorption of the neutrons as they pass through the Earth's atmosphere.

Thermonuclear weapons produce a significant part of their yield from nuclear fusion. Fusion products are typically non-radioactive. The degree of radiation fallout production is therefore measured in kilotons of fission. The Tsar Bomba, which produced 97% of its 50-megaton yield from fusion, was a very clean weapon compared to what would typically be expected of a weapon of its yield (although it still produced 1.5 megatons of its yield from fission), as its fusion tamper was made of lead instead of uranium-238; otherwise, its yield would have been 100 megatons with 51 megatons produced from fission. Were it to be detonated at or near the surface, its fallout would comprise fully one-quarter of all the fallout from every nuclear weapon test, combined.

Initially, the fireball contains a highly ionized plasma consisting only of atoms of the weapon, its fission products, and atmospheric gases of adjacent air. As the plasma cools, the atoms react, forming fine droplets and then solid particles of oxides. The particles coalesce to larger ones, and deposit on surface of other particles. Larger particles usually originate from material aspired into the cloud. Particles aspired while the cloud is still hot enough to melt them mix with the fission products throughout their volume. Larger particles get molten radioactive materials deposited on their surface. Particles aspired into the cloud later, when its temperature is low enough, do not become significantly contaminated. Particles formed only from the weapon are fine enough to stay airborne for a long time and become widely dispersed and diluted to non-hazardous levels. Higher-altitude blasts which do not aspire ground debris, or which aspire dust only after cooling enough and where the radioactive fraction of the particles is therefore small, cause a much smaller degree of localized fallout than lower-altitude blasts with larger radioactive particles formed.

The concentration of condensation products is the same for the small particles and for the deposited surface layers of larger particles. About 100 kg of small particles are formed per kiloton of yield. The volume, and therefore activity, of the small particles is almost three orders of magnitude lower than the volume of the deposited surface layers on larger particles. For higher-altitude blasts, the primary particle forming processes are condensation and subsequent coagulation. For lower-altitude and ground blasts, with involvement of soil particles, the primary process is deposition on the foreign particles.

A low-altitude detonation produces a cloud with a dust loading of 100 tons per megaton of yield. A ground detonation produces clouds with about three times as much dust. For a ground detonation, approximately 200 tons of soil per kiloton of yield is melted and comes in contact with radiation. The fireball volume is the same for a surface or an atmospheric detonation. In the first case, the fireball is a hemisphere instead of a sphere, with a correspondingly larger radius.

The particle sizes range from submicrometer- and micrometer-sized (created by condensation of plasma in the fireball), through 10–500 micrometers (surface material agitated by the blast wave and raised by the afterwinds), to millimeter and above (crater ejecta). The size of particles together with the altitude they are carried to, determines the length of their stay in the atmosphere, as larger particles are subject to dry precipitation. Smaller particles can be also scavenged by precipitation, either from the moisture condensing in the cloud or from the cloud intersecting with a rain cloud. The fallout carried down by rain is known as rain-out if scavenged during raincloud formation, washout if absorbed into already formed falling raindrops.

Particles from air bursts are smaller than 10–25 micrometers, usually in the submicrometer range. They are composed mostly of iron oxides, with smaller proportion of aluminium oxide, and uranium and plutonium oxides. Particles larger than 1–2 micrometers are very spherical, corresponding to vaporized material condensing into droplets and then solidifying. The radioactivity is evenly distributed throughout the particle volume, making total activity of the particles linearly dependent on particle volume. About 80% of activity is present in more volatile elements, which condense only after the fireball cools to considerable degree. For example, strontium-90 will have less time to condense and coalesce into larger particles, resulting in greater degree of mixing in the volume of air and smaller particles. The particles produced immediately after the burst are small, with 90% of the radioactivity present in particles smaller than 300 nanometers. These coagulate with stratospheric aerosols. Coagulation is more extensive in the troposphere, and, at ground level, most activity is present in particles between 300 nm and 1 μm. The coagulation offsets the fractionation processes at particle formation, evening out isotopic distribution.

For ground and low-altitude bursts, the cloud contains vaporized, melted and fused soil particles. The distribution of activity through the particles depends on their formation. Particles formed by vaporization-condensation have activity evenly distributed through volume as the air-burst particles. Larger molten particles have the fission products diffused through the outer layers, and fused and non-melted particles that were not heated sufficiently but came in contact with the vaporized material or scavenged droplets before their solidification have a relatively thin layer of high activity material deposited on their surface. The composition of such particles depends on the character of the soil, usually a glass-like material formed from silicate minerals. The particle sizes do not depend on the yield but instead on the soil character, as they are based on individual grains of the soil or their clusters. Two types of particles are present, spherical, formed by complete vaporization-condensation or at least melting of the soil, with activity distributed evenly through the volume (or with a 10–30% volume of inactive core for larger particles between 0.5–2 mm), and irregular-shaped particles formed at the edges of the fireball by fusion of soil particles, with activity deposited in a thin surface layer. The amount of large irregular particles is insignificant. Particles formed from detonations above, or in, the ocean, will contain short-lived radioactive sodium isotopes, and salts from the sea water. Molten silica is a very good solvent for metal oxides and scavenges small particles easily; explosions above silica-containing soils will produce particles with isotopes mixed through their volume. In contrast, coral debris, based on calcium carbonate, tends to adsorb radioactive particles on its surface.

The elements undergo fractionation during particle formation, due to their different volatility. Refractory elements (Sr, Y, Zr, Nb, Ba, La, Ce, Pr, Nd, Pm) form oxides with high boiling points; these precipitate the fastest and at the time of particle solidification, at temperature of 1400 °C, are considered to be fully condensed. Volatile elements (Kr, Xe, I, Br) are not condensed at that temperature. Intermediate elements have their (or their oxides) boiling points close to the solidification temperature of the particles (Rb, Cs, Mo, Ru, Rh, Tc, Sb, Te). The elements in the fireball are present as oxides, unless the temperature is above the decomposition temperature of a given oxide. Less refractory products condense on surfaces of solidified particles. Isotopes with gaseous precursors solidify on the surface of the particles as they are produced by decay.

The largest and therefore most radioactive particles are deposited by fallout in the first few hours after the blast. Smaller particles are carried to higher altitudes and descend more slowly, reaching ground in a less radioactive state as the isotopes with the shortest half-lives decay the fastest. The smallest particles can reach the stratosphere and stay there for weeks, months, or even years, and cover an entire hemisphere of the planet via atmospheric currents. The higher danger, short-term, localized fallout is deposited primarily downwind from the blast site, in a cigar-shaped area, assuming a wind of constant strength and direction. Crosswinds, changes in wind direction, and precipitation are factors that can greatly alter the fallout pattern.

The condensation of water droplets in the mushroom cloud depends on the amount of condensation nuclei. Too many condensation nuclei actually inhibit condensation, as the particles compete for a relatively insufficient amount of water vapor. Chemical reactivity of the elements and their oxides, ion adsorption properties, and compound solubility influence particle distribution in the environment after deposition from the atmosphere. Bioaccumulation influences the propagation of fallout radioisotopes in the biosphere.

Radioisotopes
The primary fallout hazard is gamma radiation from short-lived radioisotopes, which represent the bulk of activity. Within 24 hours after a burst, the fallout gamma radiation level drops 60 times. Longer-life radioisotopes, typically caesium-137 and strontium-90, present a long-term hazard. Intense beta radiation from the fallout particles can cause beta burns to people and animals coming in contact with the fallout shortly after the blast. Ingested or inhaled particles cause an internal dose of alpha and beta radiation, which may lead to long-term effects, including cancer. The neutron irradiation of the atmosphere produces a small amount of activation, mainly as long-lived carbon-14 and short-lived argon-41. The elements most important for induced radioactivity for sea water are sodium-24, chlorine, magnesium, and bromine. For ground bursts, the elements of concern are aluminium-28, silicon-31, sodium-24, manganese-56, iron-59, and cobalt-60.

The bomb casing can be a significant sources of neutron-activated radioisotopes. The neutron flux in the bombs, especially thermonuclear devices, is sufficient for high-threshold nuclear reactions. The induced isotopes include cobalt-60, 57 and 58, iron-59 and 55, manganese-54, zinc-65, yttrium-88, and possibly nickel-58 and 62, niobium-63, holmium-165, iridium-191, and short-lived manganese-56, sodium-24, silicon-31, and aluminium-28. Europium-152 and 154 can be present, as well as two nuclear isomers of rhodium-102. During the Operation Hardtack, tungsten-185, 181 and 187 and rhenium-188 were produced from elements added as tracers to the bomb casings, to allow identification of fallout produced by specific explosions. Antimony-124, cadmium-109, and cadmium-113m are also mentioned as tracers.

The most significant radiation sources are the fission products from the primary fission stage, and in the case of fission-fusion-fission weapons, from the fission of the fusion stage uranium tamper. Many more neutrons per unit of energy are released in a thermonuclear explosion in comparison with a purely fission yield influencing the fission products composition. For example, uranium-237 is a unique thermonuclear explosion marker, as it is produced by a (n,2n) reaction from uranium-238, with the minimal neutron energy needed being about 5.9 MeV. Considerable amounts of neptunium-239 and uranium-237 are indicators of a fission-fusion-fission explosion. Minor amounts of uranium-240 are also formed, and capture of large numbers of neutrons by individual nuclei leads to formation of small but detectable amounts of higher transuranium elements, e.g. einsteinium-255 and fermium-255.

One of the important fission products is krypton-90, a radioactive noble gas. It diffuses easily in the cloud and undergoes two decays to rubidium-90 and then strontium-90, with half-lives of 33 seconds and 3 minutes. The noble gas nonreactivity and rapid diffusion is responsible for depletion of local fallout in Sr-90, and corresponding Sr-90 enrichment of remote fallout.

The radioactivity of the particles decreases with time, with different isotopes being significant at different timespans. For soil activation products, aluminium-28 is the most important contributor during the first 15 minutes. Manganese-56 and sodium-24 follow until about 200 hours. Iron-59 follows at 300 hours, and after 100–300 days, the significant contributor becomes cobalt-60.

Radioactive particles can be carried for considerable distances. Radiation from the Trinity test was washed out by a rainstorm in Illinois. This was deduced, and the origin traced, when Eastman Kodak found x-ray films were being fogged by cardboard packaging produced in the Midwest. Unanticipated winds carried lethal doses of Castle Bravo fallout over the Rongelap Atoll, forcing its evacuation. The crew of Daigo Fukuryu Maru, a Japanese fishing boat located outside of the predicted danger zone, was also affected. Strontium-90 found in worldwide fallout later led to the Partial Test Ban Treaty.

Fluorescent glow
The intense radiation in the first seconds after the blast may cause an observable aura of fluorescence, the blue-violet-purple glow of ionized oxygen and nitrogen out to a significant distance from the fireball, surrounding the head of the forming mushroom cloud. This light is most easily visible at night or under conditions of weak daylight. The brightness of the glow decreases rapidly with elapsed time since the detonation, becoming only barely visible after a few tens of seconds.

Condensation effects
Nuclear mushroom clouds are often accompanied by short-lived vapour clouds, known variously as "Wilson clouds", condensation clouds, or vapor rings. The "negative phase" following the positive overpressure behind a shock front causes a sudden rarefaction of the surrounding medium. This low pressure region causes an adiabatic drop in temperature, causing moisture in the air to condense in an outward moving shell surrounding the explosion. When the pressure and temperature return to normal, the Wilson cloud dissipates. Scientists observing the Operation Crossroads nuclear tests in 1946 at Bikini Atoll named that transitory cloud a "Wilson cloud" because of its visual similarity to a Wilson cloud chamber; the cloud chamber uses condensation from a rapid pressure drop to mark the tracks of electrically charged subatomic particles. Analysts of later nuclear bomb tests used the more general term "condensation cloud" in preference to "Wilson cloud".

The same kind of condensation is sometimes seen above the wings of jet aircraft at low altitude in high-humidity conditions. The top of a wing is a curved surface. The curvature (and increased air velocity) causes a reduction in air pressure, as given by Bernoulli's Law. This reduction in air pressure causes cooling, and when the air cools past its dew point, water vapour condenses out of the air, producing droplets of water, which become visible as a white cloud. In technical terms, the "Wilson cloud" is also an example of the Prandtl–Glauert singularity in aerodynamics.

The shape of the shock wave is influenced by variation of the speed of sound with altitude, and the temperature and humidity of different atmospheric layers determines the appearance of the Wilson clouds. Condensation rings around or above the fireball are a commonly observed feature. Rings around the fireball may become stable, becoming rings around the rising stem. Higher-yield explosions cause intense updrafts, where air speeds can reach 300 mph. The entrainment of higher-humidity air, combined with the associated drop in pressure and temperature, leads to the formation of skirts and bells around the stem. If the water droplets become sufficiently large, the cloud structure they form may become heavy enough to descend; in this way, a rising stem with a descending bell around it can be produced. Layering of humidity in the atmosphere, responsible for the appearance of the condensation rings as opposed to a spherical cloud, also influences the shape of the condensation artifacts along the stem of the mushroom cloud, as the updraft causes laminar flow. The same effect above the top of the cloud, where the expansion of the rising cloud pushes a layer of warm, humid, low-altitude air upwards into cold, high-altitude air, first causes the condensation of water vapour out of the air and then causes the resulting droplets to freeze, forming ice caps (or icecaps), similar in both appearance and mechanism of formation to scarf clouds.

The resulting composite structures can become very complex. The Castle Bravo cloud had, at various phases of its development, 4 condensation rings, 3 ice caps, 2 skirts, and 3 bells.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Mushroom cloud


text:
Talk:Politics of Germany

Legacy of Nazism
@Alexanderkowal I think your section on the legacy of Naziism is a valuable addition, as it still has considerable impact on German politics. Unfortunately, you seem to have written on Denazification entirely, without any reference to current German politics. It's also quite long, repeating what could have been referred to in an {See also}, and in quite a prominent position in the article, sectioned relatively high up. JackTheSecond (talk) 10:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 * @JackTheSecond yeah I'm going to add to it. It might be worth slimming down the denazification paragraphs, I just thought it gave valuable context for the concept of German collective guilt, which is what the section is going to be about Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Just to guide your work a bit further: The section, in its current state, is already longer than almost anything but the foreign policy section. JackTheSecond (talk) 11:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond it's shorter than all the sections other than ‘constitution’? Regardless, I'll trim it down Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond I've put it under history section. Do you still feel it needs to be trimmed down? Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond why did you revert my edit? Really odd considering we are already discussing it here Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Because you asked for a reevaluation before doing anything. Also, it doesn't belong into the chronologically organised section. JackTheSecond (talk) 13:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond when did I ask for a re-evaluation? It belongs in the history section, it is clear that it is not part of the chronology Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * When you wrote Do you still feel it needs to be trimmed down? you asked for another look. You seem to be trying to write something longer than fits the article. Maybe just create Legacy of Naziism in Germany. Maybe Culture of Remembrance is useful to you in that regard, also. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Specifically, Sections of the German version. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond I asked for your opinion, not for you to delete it lol. Thank you for the recommendations, I'll use them in adding to it. It's probably only going to be two or three more decently sized paragraphs, but I will probably cut out some of the denazification paragraph. At the moment it does read quite brutish so some of it definitely needs to be rephrased. Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that it is a very sensitive topic and requires more competency than I am currently providing, but the end product seemed good? I’ve found lots of sources about this and aim to add new content to Wikipedia, I don’t fully understand your opposition, and I’d prefer you were constructive rather than blanking a section with minimal explanation Kowal2701 (talk) 06:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sensitivity may be an issue, but wasn't mine. I see the conversation got a bit weird below... Anyway, below you write Half of this article is dedicated to political history, so I do think a summary of denazification is relevant. Basically what the history section in this article does is to summarize recent election results and electoral terms in a fairly straightforward and focussed manner. -- It also really only deals with the unified Germany.
 * None of the other sections deal with history. A section on Vergangenheitsbewältigung is due (and missing), a section on Denazification is not. -- I also feel like I explained that before, constructively. JackTheSecond (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What about redefining the scope of the section by renaming it “Collective guilt and German politics”? And it can include the culture of remembrance and the impact on German nationalism Kowal2701 (talk) 16:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, Vergangenheitsbewältigung is a context that exists already. And an ongoing political factor in Germany that is well-documented. Your issue here is that you're trying to write in a more strongly worded context - in your own words "brutish" - that is non-encyclopedic. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So the issue is sensitivity? I agree, but I felt it explained the collective guilt. The brutishness was borrowed from Denazification, obviously it's needs to be written in a way that doesn't perpetuate this phenomenon. More emphasis also needs to be placed on the culture of remembrance, I'd like it to be positive, whilst not glossing over the ugliness Kowal2701 (talk) 18:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

You only make additions that can already be found or understood on the article about denazification. To be considered as such, a copy does not need to be line by line. The information is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. Are these edits from a neutral point of view?

Edit war over Legacy of Nazism
@2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 My comment on your talk page:
 * Discussion is not to happen via edit summaries. Only two paragraphs are copied over from denazification to provide context for the paragraph on collective guilt (which is what this section is about), which I plan to expand much further. This article discusses the political history of Germany whilst glossing over this. I softened the tone of the first few paragraphs.

Your comment here:
 * You only make additions that can already be found or understood on the article about denazification. To be considered as such, a copy does not need to be line by line. The information is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. Are these edits from a neutral point of view?

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

 * @2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 Is WP:NPOV your main concern with this section? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand that these articles mostly fly by without anyone checking the information. You are once again misdirecting the discussion. Neutral point of view is just one of the points of your repeated additions without any consensus. 2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 (talk) 13:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not misdirecting discussion, I'm trying to assess what has propelled you to engage in an edit war. If you look at this talk page, no-one responded so I added the section. It received criticism from one editor and we trimmed it down and clarified its purpose. Can you state your reasons for deleting it entirely, because I've responded to your initial reason and stated that it wasn't adequate. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've already stated my argument. It is a lengthy copy from denazification and similar sources (or the sources from the same article). It is not easily translated to complement the article Politics of Germany. And this is not neutral, it is just pushing biased politics on the side of the article. Again, show the specific legislation affected by the denazification process or try to change denazification. A "See Also: Denazification" really is enough. 2804:14C:DA98:80DD:1596:A431:1CFC:B2C2 (talk) 14:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is very relevant to the politics of Germany, as what is currently there is political history. I plan to add further efforts of reconciliation to the history part and then expand the paragraph on collective guilt and how it affects German politics today. I’ve found loads of sources talking about this, I just need to do the history bit first.
 * can you please elaborate on how it is biased? Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Half of this article is dedicated to poitical history, so I do think a summary of denazification is relevant Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Politics of Germany


text:
Tipper Gore

Mary Elizabeth "Tipper" Gore (née Aitcheson; born August 19, 1948) is an American social issues advocate. She was the second lady of the United States from 1993 to 2001 through her marriage to 45th vice president Al Gore in 1970, although they separated in 2010.

In 1985, Gore co-founded the Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC), which advocated for labeling of record covers of releases featuring profane language, especially in the heavy metal, punk, and hip hop genres of music. Throughout her decades of public life, she has advocated for placing advisory labels on music (leading critics to call her a censor), and for mental health awareness, women's causes, children's causes, LGBT rights, and reducing homelessness.

Early life and education
Born Mary Elizabeth Aitcheson in Washington, D.C., Tipper Gore is the daughter of John Kenneth "Jack" Aitcheson Jr., a plumbing-supply entrepreneur and owner of J & H Aitcheson Plumbing Supply, and his first wife, Margaret Ann (née Carlson) Odom (who lost her first husband during World War II). She was given the nickname "Tipper" by her mother, from a lullaby her mother had heard. Gore grew up in Arlington, Virginia. Her mother and grandmother raised her after her parents divorced.

She attended St. Agnes (now St. Stephen's & St. Agnes School), a private Episcopal school in Alexandria, Virginia, where she played basketball, softball and field hockey, and played the drums for an all-female band called The Wildcats.

She met Al Gore at his senior prom in 1965. Although she came to the prom with one of his classmates, Gore and Tipper began to date immediately afterwards. When Al Gore began attending Harvard University, she enrolled in Garland Junior College (now part of Simmons College) and later transferred to Boston University receiving her B.A. in psychology in 1970. On May 19, 1970, she and Gore were married at the Washington National Cathedral.

Gore pursued a master's degree in psychology from Vanderbilt University's George Peabody College, graduating in 1975.

Career
Gore worked part-time as a newspaper photographer for Nashville's The Tennessean and continued as a freelance photographer in Washington after her husband was elected to the U.S. Congress in 1976.

Politics and activism
Gore took an active role in her husband's political pursuits starting with his first campaign for the United States House of Representatives from Tennessee in 1976. Soon after her husband's election, Gore established a group to examine and write about social issues called the Congressional Wives Task Force.

In 1984, Gore began volunteering in homeless shelters. Homelessness became a major cause for Gore, and she formed a group called Families for the Homeless to raise funds and awareness for the issue.

Parents Music Resource Center
In 1985, Tipper Gore co-founded the Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC) with Sally Nevius, Pam Howar, and Susan Baker, wife of then–United States secretary of the treasury James Baker, because Gore heard her then 11-year-old daughter Karenna playing "Darling Nikki" by Prince. The group's goal was to increase parental and consumer awareness of music that contained explicit content through voluntary labeling albums with Parental Advisory stickers. Their coalition included the National PTA and the American Academy of Pediatrics. The PMRC had no members, merely founders, and all of the founders were wives of prominent politicians.

According to an article by NPR, Gore went "before Congress to urge warning labels for records marketed to children." Gore explained that her purpose wasn't to put a "gag" on music, but to keep it safe for younger listeners by providing parents with information about the content of the songs. A number of individuals including Glenn Danzig of Danzig/Misfits, Dee Snider of Twisted Sister, Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys, John Denver, Joey Ramone, and Frank Zappa criticized the group, arguing that it was a form of censorship. Gore's relationship with Snider was particularly antagonistic, with Snider accusing her of having a "dirty mind" for suggesting that his band's song "Under the Blade" contained sadomasochistic references, when the song in fact referred to medical surgery instead. In response to such criticism, NPR further stated that according to Gore, she "wasn't out to censor the objectionable material" and quoted her as stating that she is "a strong believer in the First Amendment" who is calling for greater "consumer information in the marketplace."

The PMRC's efforts were successful and resulted in an agreement where recording labels voluntarily placed warning labels on music with violent or sexually explicit lyrics.

1990s to present
In 1990, Gore founded the Tennessee Voices for Children to advance youth services for mental health and substance abuse. Gore also co-chaired the National Mental Health Association's Child Mental Health Interest Group.

Gore campaigned during her husband's 1988 presidential bid and toured with him and Bill and Hillary Clinton during the presidential campaign of 1992.

As second lady, Gore served as the mental health policy advisor to the president. Her goals were to diminish the stigma surrounding mental illness and to bring awareness to the need for affordable mental health care. In 1999, Gore hosted the first White House Conference on Mental Health. That same year, she launched the National Mental Health Awareness Campaign (NMHAC) to encourage Americans to seek treatment for mental illness. Gore has frequently spoken about her own experience with depression and treatment following the near-fatal injury of her son Albert.

Along with her work in mental health, Gore was a part of several other initiatives during her time as second lady. She served as special advisor to the Interagency Council on the Homeless and as the national spokesperson for the "Back to Sleep" SIDS awareness campaign. In 1994, Gore visited a refugee camp and an orphanage in Zaire on a personal trip to provide aid in the aftermath of the Rwandan genocide. She stayed in a UNICEF camp and assisted doctors and aid workers. She made an official visit to Honduras in 1998 following Hurricane Mitch to volunteer, bring medical supplies, and survey the damage.

Gore took part in campaigning for the reelection of President Clinton and Vice President Gore in 1996, and she was actively involved in her husband's presidential campaign in 2000, making her own campaign stops and media appearances. She also acted as an advisor and was a part of decisions including the hiring of Tony Coelho as chairman of the campaign and moving its headquarters to Nashville.

In 2002, Gore was urged by her supporters to run for the vacant U.S. Senate seat her husband once held in Tennessee, which was being vacated by Fred Thompson; however, she declined.

Gore has been a long-time advocate for the LGBT community. She represented the Clinton administration in the Washington, D.C. AIDS Walk in 1993 as one of the highest-ranking public officials ever to participate. She has continued to participate in such walks and, in 2013 she was an honorary chair of the Nashville AIDS Walk & 5K Run. She was a public opponent of California's Proposition 8 to ban same-sex marriage in 2008. In 2014, she created an exhibition of her photographs at the Wall Space Gallery to support the Pacific Pride Foundation that provides services to the HIV/AIDS and LGBT communities of Santa Barbara, California.

As of 2012, she served as co-chair of the advisory board of the Diana Basehart Foundation which assists homeless and low-income people with animal care.

Creative roles
In high school, Gore was the drummer for an all-female band called the Wildcats. She has played drums with members of the Grateful Dead, and during the second night of the Spring 2009 Dead tour, Tipper Gore sat in playing drums during the closing song "Sugar Magnolia". In 2000, she appeared on stage at the Equality Rocks concert at Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium to play to a crowd of 45,000 prior to the Millennium March on Washington. Later that year, she played with Willie Nelson during his set at Farm Aid. She played with Herbie Hancock at the 25th Thelonious Monk International Jazz Competition in 2012.

A photographer since the 1970s, Gore has published several books of photography, her photos have been included in exhibits, and her prints have been sold by Mitchell Gold Co. stores.

Personal life
Gore has four children: Karenna Gore (born August 6, 1973), Kristin Gore (born June 5, 1977), Sarah LaFon Gore Maiani (born January 7, 1979), and Albert Arnold Gore III (born October 19, 1982); and several grandchildren.

Tipper and Al Gore were baptized at Mount Vernon Baptist Church in Arlington, Virginia, in 1980. Tipper Gore served as a deaconess at Mount Vernon.

In June 2010, the Gores announced their marital separation, "a mutual and mutually supportive decision that we have made together following a process of long and careful consideration." In August 2012, The New York Times reported that both Gores were dating other people and have no plans to resume marriage, but that their "bond endures" and their relationship is friendly. "The couple reunites a few times a year, most recently in June, for summer family vacations and Christmases in the Gore family seat of Carthage, Tennessee," the newspaper reported. As of August 2012 she was dating Bill Allen, who is a former editor of National Geographic.

title: Tipper Gore


text:
Horlicks

Horlicks is a British sweet malted milk hot drink powder developed by founders James and William Horlick. It was first sold as "Horlick's Infant and Invalids Food", soon adding "aged and travellers" to their label. In the early 20th century, it was sold as a powdered meal replacement drink mix.

‘Night starvation’ was a fictitious condition invented by Horlicks as an advertising gimmick that was supposedly relieved if a mug of the malt drink was consumed before bedtime. In the song "Goodness gracious me!", the doctor (played by Peter Sellers) mentions night starvation as one of the many possible ailments that his wealthy Italian patient (played by Sophia Loren) might be suffering from, when in fact the trouble is that they are both lovesick.

It was then marketed as a nutritional supplement and manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline (Consumer Healthcare) in Australia, Bangladesh, Hong Kong, India, Jamaica, Malaysia, New Zealand, South Africa, Sri Lanka, and the United Kingdom. It is now produced by the Anglo-Dutch company Unilever through its Indian division. Horlicks in the UK is currently owned by Aimia Foods.

On 3 December 2018, Unilever announced they were buying Horlicks Indian business for US$3.8 billion. The Horlicks UK business had already been sold in 2017 to Aimia Foods, a UK-based subsidiary of Cott Corporation.

In Britain, Horlicks is commonly consumed as a drink near bedtime, and is marketed as an evening drink; in contrast, it has been marketed as a breakfast drink in India where it is far more popular.

Ingredients
The main ingredient in the United Kingdom formulation is a mixture of wheat flour and malted wheat (46%), followed by malted barley (26%). As of 2019, the other ingredients include dried whey, calcium carbonate, dried skimmed milk, sugar, palm oil, salt, Anti-Caking Agent (E551), and a mixture of vitamins and minerals. The palm oil used is non-hydrogenated and certified by the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil. The formulation may vary slightly depending upon the country. For instance, the Indian formulation does not contain oil, but does contain soy protein isolate.

Advertising
Dan Dare, Pilot of the Future serial was sponsored by Horlicks in 1952 and was aired Monday to Friday at 7:15 p.m. over Radio Luxembourg.

In 1961, Horlicks ran a television advertising campaign that featured Scottish entertainer Billy Raymond and an actress. The theme of the advert was "Horlicks – the food drink of the night."

Horlicks was the sponsor of the Lum and Abner Show from 1934 to 1937.

India
Horlicks came to India with the British Army; the end of World War I saw Indian soldiers of British Indian Army bringing it back with them as a dietary supplement. Punjab, Bengal and Madras Presidencies became early adopters of Horlicks and many well-to-do Indians took to drinking Horlicks as a family drink in early 1940s and 1950s. It became a sort of status symbol in upper middle class Indians and rich classes. The first flavour available in India, as in Britain, was malt.

India, where it has traditionally been marketed as The Great Family Nourisher, is the largest market for Horlicks. The Indian formulation for Horlicks is slightly different from that used in most other countries, as there it is manufactured from buffalo milk rather than cows milk. In 2003, the brand underwent a revamp which led to the introduction of new flavours such as vanilla, toffee, chocolate, honey, and elaichi (cardamom). The current line-up of flavours include original (malt), chocolate and elaichi. with the latest offering Horlicks Kesar Badaam added recently to the portfolio, providing a more specialized taste offering to the consumers.

In recent years, there has been an increase in the scope of the brand in India. By pushing it to newer segments of the market, Horlicks has become an umbrella brand for a wide variety of products ranging from the flagship malt drink to instant noodles, confectionery and breakfast cereal. Special formulations of the malted drink for young children (Junior Horlicks), breast-feeding mothers (Mother's Horlicks), women (Women's Horlicks) and adults (Lite Horlicks) exist. Horlicks biscuits were first launched in 1993, and an energy bar was launched in 2009, named Horlicks NutriBar. Also in late 2009, Foodles, a brand of instant noodles, was launched under the Horlicks umbrella. This was followed in 2011 by launches of Horlicks Gold, a premium variant of the malt drink (dubbed The Best Horlicks Ever), and Horlicks Oats, the first breakfast cereal product under the Horlicks brand.

In 2010, Horlicks accounted for 85% of the inr 23060000000 revenue of GlaxoSmithKline in India. In 2012 it was the most widely consumed packaged beverage in India, after bottled water.

The biggest branding event is Horlicks Wizkids. This event started its way in 2003 and till now has reached approximately 25 million children in all India as well as in Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh.

Ahaar Abhiyan is a Horlicks initiative to increase malnutrition-related awareness amongst mothers, families and communities. With the sale of every bottle of Horlicks, the company contributes ₹1 towards the initiative. The campaign attempts to raise awareness about proper nutrition amongst mothers of children aged between 3 and 6 years.

Horlicks Wizkids is an interschool cultural and literary competition for children from class 1 to 12. The competition attracts students from India, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh. With more than 30 events in the field of arts, literature, painting and extra-curricular activities, Horlicks Wizkids is South Asia's largest interschool fiesta giving children an opportunity to showcase their talent on a global platform.

The 2013 Edition of Horlicks Wizkids South Asia was held in Bangalore. It consisted of five days of rigorous training sessions, talent rounds, project presentations and other fun, learning and recreational activities. More than 100,000 students from over 1,200 schools participated. Five students from Vizag, Jaipur, Delhi, Hyderabad and Bhubaneshwar earned the title of the Horlicks WizTeam 2013. The winners got an opportunity to go for a learning program to Germany and a cash award of ₹100,000 each.

Hong Kong
In Hong Kong, Horlicks is known better as a café drink than as a sleeping aid. It is served at cha chaan tengs as well as fast-food shops such as Café de Coral, Fairwood and Maxim's Express. It can be served hot or cold, and is usually sweetened with sugar. It is made with warm milk, and ice is added to it if a cold drink is desired.

Southeast Asia
In some Southeast Asian countries, such as the Philippines and Malaysia, Horlicks was also sold as milky-chocolate-flavoured discs in paper packets, which were then eaten as candy. Horlicks remains popular in Malaysia and Singapore where it packed under licence from SmithKline Beecham and sold in large glass and tin containers. It is also available in 1.5 kg refill packs. "Taller, stronger, sharper" is its slogan.

South Africa
Besides its use as a hot drink prepared with hot milk, Horlicks is also a popular ingredient in "honey and Horlicks" milkshakes in South Africa.

United Kingdom
In the United Kingdom, Horlicks is produced by Aimia Foods. It is available in original (prepared with hot milk), instant (prepared with hot water), chocolate (prepared with hot water), and vegan. A 'pudding range' is also available in cherry bakewell, banoffee pie and apple pie flavours. In addition, a 'nourishing shakes' range (requiring milk) includes products claiming to help with a healthy body, healthy gut, or healthy sleep.

GlaxoSmithKline attempted a rebrand of the product in 2004 for younger consumers by redesigning the packaging and publicising its consumption at a number of trendy London venues such as the Groucho Club.

The company also owned Horlicks Farms and Dairies, a cheese, dairy and cattle breeding station at "Hort Bridge", Ilminster, Somerset. (The cattle breeding centre provided an artificial insemination service to farmers). In 1958 it took over the Cheddar Valley Dairy, and by the early 1960s had retail rounds, depots, and shops at Burnham, Cheddar, Clevedon, Glastonbury, Nailsea, Taunton, and Weston-super-Mare.

Company timeline

 * 1869: William Horlick from Ruardean, Gloucestershire, emigrated to the United States.
 * 1873: James Horlick, a pharmacist, joined his brother, William, in the US and together they founded the company J & W Horlicks in Chicago to manufacture a patented malted milk drink as an artificial infant food.
 * 1875: Business moved to larger premises at Racine, Wisconsin, with an abundant supply of spring water.
 * 1883: US patent 278,967 granted to William for first malted milk drink mixing powder with hot water.
 * 1890: James returned to London to set up an office importing US-made product.
 * 1906: Slough selected as site for new factory (see picture).
 * 1908: Factory construction completed at a cost of £28,000.
 * 1909–1910: Horlicks became popular as a provision for North Pole and South Pole expeditions by Robert Peary, Roald Amundsen, and Robert Falcon Scott.
 * 1914: James made a baronet. World War I saw extensive use of Horlicks drink at home and at the front.
 * 1921: Death of James led company to split, with William having responsibility for the Americas and the sons of James for the rest of the world.
 * 1928: William Horlick High School founded just north of Horlicks' headquarters in Racine, Wisconsin.
 * 1931: "Night Starvation" story developed to promote Horlicks as a bedtime drink.
 * 1935: Richard E. Byrd named the Horlick Mountains on the edge of the Ross Ice Shelf after William, in appreciation of his support. A small factory opened in Australia for the local market, including New Zealand. Horlicks milky-chocolate-flavoured disks in paper packets, which were eaten as candy, were marketed in the USA via radio commercials touting the ease with which they could be taken to school by children. In the US, Horlicks Tablets were sold as a candy, offered in a glass bottle resembling an aspirin jar. In World War II the tablets were supplied to US, UK and other troops as an energy boosting treat, and included in lifeboat and liferaft rations, and aircrew escape kits. Today they are packaged in foil pouches, manufactured in Malaysia as Horlicks Malties.
 * 1936: William Horlick died, aged 90.
 * 1945: The US company was acquired by the UK Horlicks business.
 * 1952: Horlicks was linked to the successful treatment of gastric ulcers and some forms of diabetes.
 * 1960: Factory built in Punjab, India, to make Horlicks from buffalo milk.
 * 1968: Factory built in West Punjab, to supply local demand (including present-day Bangladesh).
 * 1969: Horlicks acquired by the Beecham Group.
 * 1975–78: Factory construction and expansion in Rajahmundry, Andhra Pradesh.
 * 1989: Beecham Group became SmithKline Beecham.
 * 2000: SmithKline Beecham became GlaxoSmithKline.
 * 2017: Horlicks in the UK acquired by Aimia Foods
 * 2019: Horlicks outside of the UK acquired by Unilever

title: Horlicks


text:
Talk:SS Yongala

earlier comments
Quote, mail from Townsville Maritime Museum about using the information from []

Dear Gorm,

Thank you for requesting permission to use the information on our web site re. SS Yongala - you have our permission -good luck.

Vivienne Moran curator

Text from duplicate article
Might be of use here, from Yongala- now redirects to here, though this article looks quite complete.--nixie 01:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) The story of the SS Yongala is often referred to as Queenslands own titanic story. The SS Yongala was at it's time the pride of the Adelade Steam Ship Company. She was a passenger steamer on the busy Melbourne to Cairns run, when she encountered the cyclone that sent her and all 121 passengers and crew to the bottom. She was lost without a trace and wasn't found again 'till Aug 1958.

On the 14th of March 1911 Yongala left Melbourne for Cairns, this was to be her last voyage. On 23rd of March the light house keeper and his family at Dent Island, were the last people to see SS Yongala as she sailed past, at about 6PM that night, 121 people would not live to see the sun rise.

On the same afternoon SS Grantala (Yongala's sister ship) was traveling south from Townsville. When nearing Cape Bowling Green her Captain when encountering strong squalls, decided to take shelter from the cyclone. Grantala's Barometer now dropped to 29.9 with sustained winds of 70 to 80 MPH.

The wreck of the SS Yoingala is now one of the worlds top 10 wreck dives for recreational scuba divers. Not so much for the historical significance, but for the marine life that calls the wreck home. More info and photo's can be found at http://www.geocities.com/diveyongala/

---

The above information seems fine, exept the name of the sister sihp. I am quite sure the sister ship mentioned in the above text should be "SS Cooma", and not "SS Grantala". For all I know, there might exist a third ship, "SS Grantala".

Use of language
"Ironically Yongala was due for a refit in Cairns, including installing a radio, at the end of her last journey."

That's not ironic, it's unfortunate. The sentence is also missing a comma. Now, where did I put my red pen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.150.120.43 (talk) 13:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Survivors
Why did no one survive? Weren't there lifeboats on board?Philippe Auguste (talk) 17:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Name Yongala
I have amended this sentence: "Following company tradition, the vessel was named after a word in the local Aboriginal language; 'Yongala' (originally pronounced Yonggluh) meant "broad water", or "broad wide watering place". It was also the name of the small town Yongala in South Australia." It is not clear where "local" is: Newcastle-on-Tyne?

Almost all Adelaide Steamship Company vessels were named after rural towns or pastoral properties in South Australia: Bungaree, Cantara, Ceduna, Kooringa, Manoora, Minnippa, Paringa, Willochra etc. Yongala is a small wheat town in the southern Flinders Ranges, on the Broken Hill railway. The name is an Aboriginal word from the Nadjuri language, meaning something like "good water". Peter Bell (talk) 05:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Register of National Estate
I have carried out some minor editing, mainly moving sentences around in the last 2 sections of the article in order to put information either in a better order or in a better place. The most significant edit is the change to the content concerning the National Estate. For you r information, the Register of National Estate (RNE) no longer has any statutory significance (i.e. closed in 2007 and reference in legislation completely removed by February 2012 - refer http://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/places/rne/index.html, retrieved 21/08/2012).Cowdy001 (talk) 22:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Two things
Someone added a tag to the statement that Yongala unloaded 50 tons of cargo in Mackay. In Australia in 1911, a ton meant a British Imperial ton, also known as a long ton. 50 long tons would equal about 56 US or short tons, or 49.2 metric tonnes. What's vague?

The tosh about "a ghost ship, exactly resembling the Yongala" has no place in an encyclopaedia. That comes from Hector Holthouse's book Cyclone, which is not a reliable historical source. Unless there is a primary source from the period, it should be removed. Peter Bell (talk) 06:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Overreliance on Townsville Maritme Museum webpage
The article as I came across it earlier today had large sections that were almost a word-for-word copy of the content at the Townsville Maritime Museum's webpage on the ship. I've made a rough pass and tried to copyedit as much as I could, but someone with a little more time on their hands should give this article a good scrubbing to avoid any possible claims of copyright violation. -- saberwyn 12:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:SS Yongala


text:
User talk:Weezer76

I don't suppose your a relation of User:Weezer aka Michael are you? -fonzy

 * 1) Uploaded image file to do with "NOFX" one of michales pseudonyms
 * 2) User name Weezer.
 * er
 * 1) thats it.

I am not really sure how to respond to this question, since I have never used this feature before, but no, I am not he.

if you are "Michael" your making a good attempt to pretend your not him by acting all newbieish. If your not I suggest you talk to mav149 or jimbo wales. -fonzy

You need to study spelling and grammar. You sound like you're posting a personal on a Russian mailorder brides site.

 * We as a community also need to stop being so hair-triggered about tracking down our known vandals. Welcome to the 'pedia, Weezer76, I hope you enjoy your stay.  (Note to fonzy: Michael's grasp of reality is way too poor have progressed this far in a conversation without yet using profanity.) - Hephaestos 18:43 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Nice one, Hep! FearÉIREANN 18:51 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If your not michael I am sorry for accsuing you, but it does seem a coinsidence to me. -fonzy

 * Coincidences happen Fonzy :) -- sannse

CAN SOMEONE help me, I apologize, but I just read the plethora of copyright information, and since I borrowed heavily from some copyrighted sources (offline), I would appreciate if someone could revert the page back to March 23 and delete the subsequent content. I tried to do this myself but someone then switched it back. I don't want anyone to get in trouble. Again, sorry for the confusion. Best regards, User:Weezer76

 * Which page? Pop punk? I changed that back, but you've edited it since. -- Jim Regan 19:13 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Is it this version we need to go back to? (If I understand, it needs to go further back than your revert Jim) -- sannse 19:17 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, that is the version that was there to begin with (I think). I did not know about wiki until this week, so March is a good deal before that. That is my thinking. User:Weezer76

 * What I meant was, you made an edit after I made my revert, after you reverted it - you weren't logged it, so it just looked like some anonymous user relacing a good article with a stub. I assume now that it's the text which has the copyright problems - for images of album covers we invoke the fair use doctrine (see WikiProject Albums). Also, for future reference, when you're putting images in an article, have a look at Image use policy, using tables the way you did looks ugly in the rendered page, even if the  tags look ugly in the mark up -- Jim Regan 19:38 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Done. For future reference you can do this by clicking "page history", opening the version you want to revert to, and editing that version.  You might also want to know about the village pump, that's a good place to ask if you need any help.  Enjoy and welcome to the 'pedia :) -- sannse 19:32 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

We can't remove the versions in the history, that's a developer job not something a user can do (or an admin). You could try talking to Eloquence, the developer most likely to be around. But we don't usually worry about copyrighted text in the history as long as it's gone from the article itself. The other option would be to delete the article and then replace the stub, but I wouldn't want to do that because it would also remove all the article history. I would say it's best to leave it as it is -- sannse 19:51 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If you could "delete the article and then replace the stub" I'd appreciate it. It looks to me like there was only one edit prior to the version that was there when I begun. And I can't tell that there is any difference in the single edit. Thanks a million. User:Weezer76

If there are no objections on "votes for deletion" then I will. But I would prefer to let the community discuss the principle of deleting valid history first. Would you be happy to let it stand as it is for a while? (the traditional period is one week). I will keep an eye on the page in the mean time and ensure the copyrighted content isn't replaced by someone not aware of the issue. Is that OK? -- sannse 20:19 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

IF Weezer76 is not Michael, then shouldn't his name come off the list of known Michael aliases? Arno 12:43 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Done. -- Jim Regan 15:05 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Unverified images
Hi! Thanks for uploading the following image:

 * Image:Descendents--All.jpg

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License,  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know at my talk page where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 04:40, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.

Unverified images
Hi! Thanks for uploading the following image:

 * Image:Lagwagon--Hoss.jpg

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License,  if you wish to release your own work to the public domain,  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know at my talk page where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. Peter O. (Talk, automation script) 06:43, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.

Saw that you edited the Pop punk article
Saw that you had editied the pop punk article, we're currently working alot of stuff out so if you want check out Talk:Pop punk. Also if you are not already, you might be interested in joining the WikiProject Punk music. Thanx! P.S. you might want to organize your talk page. Xsxex 18:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Weezer76