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Talk:Craps

Dice Control
http://wizardofodds.com/craps/crapsapx3.html The (reputable) webmaster of popular casino-game-information site "wizardofodds" conducted an experiment where they found it was atleast somewhat (scientifically) probable that "dice control" could exist.

Alleged Systems
Any material referring to alleged systems (especially if it contains a link to a website) should be 86ed. There aren't any perpetual motion machines, and there aren't any craps systems that give an advantage to the player.

 * The writeup made it clear the material was a hoax, and I believe the fact that other sources have been repeating the false material makes it worth mention in an encyclopedic work. Shall we also delete hoax, Crop_circle, and Loch_Ness_Monster?  FWIW, I am unaffiliated with the site linked and included it merely because I thought it relevant.  Kat 20:56 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are lots of bogus systems out there, and I could not tell from reading your verbiage whether or not you were trying to advertise the site mentioned. The site had one of these long shaggy dog stories that attempted to explain away why their system hasn't yet bankrupted the casinos, kind of like how fad-diet books have to explain away why you will lose weight while eating all the Haagen Dazs you want. The craps-system site could possibly have been persuasive to some, and I fear for such people if they get steered to a scam site. My feeling is they are better off ignored. But if you feel strongly about your language, please feel free to put it back if you like. Mbstone 04:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I will add it back shortly. Please feel free to edit it if you believe the wording is inappropriate. Kat 19:08 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

I have a problem with the text on Quatloos that the system "gives the player an advantage over the house." It doesn't. I don't understand why Quatloos appears to debunk other scams and then claim that there is such a thing as a winnind craps system.

Question about odds during coming out
The page says, "There are a total of 36 possible combinations. So on the come out roll here are 9 ways to win, 4 ways to lose and (36-13=) 23 ways to start a point." If I understand correctly, the player wins on the "come out roll" by rolling 7 or 11. There are 6 ways to get 7 and 2 ways to get 11 which makes 8 ways to win, not 9 as the article claims. There are 24 ways to start a point. Either the odds calculation is a mistake or a subtle aspect of the game still needs to be described. Peter Hendrickson

 * Yes there are 8/36 ways to win on the come-out roll.--155.144.251.120 03:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Crabs"?
Is there any source for the statement that the game was formerly known as crabs?

 * The American Heritage Dictionary and the Encyclopedia Brittanica both mention that craps is derived from the Louisiana French word "crabs".Rray 03:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks, although what the AH (online version) says is: "Louisiana French, game of hazard, from English crabs, lowest throw in hazard, from crab1, or crab2." Which does not say that the game was ever known as "crabs."

 * The rules of Hazard, and description of throwing "crabs," was published in Hoyle's Games Improved, in 1775 :

"The person who takes the Box and Dice throws a Main, that is to say, a Chance for the Company, which must be above four, and not exceed nine, otherwise it is no Main, consequently he must keep throwing till he brings five, six, seven, eight, or nine; this done, he must throw his own Chance, which may be any above three, and not exceeding ten; if he throws two Aces or Trois-ace (commonly called Crabs) he loses his Stakes, let the Company’s Chance, which we call the Main, be what it will. If the Main should be seven, and seven or eleven is thrown immediately after, it is what is called a Nick, and the Caster (the present Player) wins out his Stakes.  If eight be the Main, and eight or twelve is thrown immediately after, it is also called a Nick, and the Caster wins his Stakes.  The Caster throwing any other Number for the Main, such as are admitted, and brings the same Number directly afterwards, it is likewise termed a Nick, and he also wins whatever Stakes he has made. Every three successive Mains the Caster wins, he pays half a Guinea to the Box or Furnisher of the Dice."

If a knowledgeable person can determine whether this reflects an early form of "craps," perhaps the entry can be modified.Svaihingen (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

London Epithet?
Is there any source for the statement that crabs was an epithet for two and three? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.178.79 (talk) 01:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Crapping out on 3
Traditionally I believe the shooter crapped out by rolling a 2 (snake eyes) or a 12 (box cars) on the first roll. I believe it was the casinos that added 3 as a crap-out, thus doubling the odds of crapping out in their favor. Am I wrong?

 * Most definatly wrong. With only craps on 2 or 12 the bet would have had a player advantage. Its possibly that 3 wasn't a crap-out when 11 wasn't a win on a come-out coll. But I doupt it.

Number of dice???
Hi, I'm working on a translation for the German wiki right now. I noticed, that there is no hint so far, that you need TWO dice to play craps. Some native might add that information soon. Cheers. 80.130.73.175 19:15, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You could also mention that in casinos, you need Five (5) dice to play.

Note: Only two dice are used during play of the hand. Five dice are offered to each new shooter to choose only two from, after the previous player sevens-out. From those five dice offered, the new player selects only two to play with (using ONLY one hand to pick the two selected), and the stickman then retrieves the other three dice for non-use during the game. He puts it back into a "dice bowl" and out of play. When the next player sevens-out, he then add the two game dice back to the out of play dice, and presents five dice to the next new player, to again select two from. Dan Lubin.

Misleading / contradictory information
In the first paragraph of 'The basic game', it is stated that: "On the first roll of the two dice... the shooter wins by rolling either a 7 or 11." But then, two sentences later: "To win, the point number must be rolled before a 7... If a 7 is rolled before the point number, the shooter has sevened-out and loses."

It can't be both, so which is it?

Also, I am assuming that the 'shooter' is the person rolling the dice? It isn't explicity stated by the text. TACD 04:39, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course it can be both. When the shooter (the player rolling the dice) throws the first roll (and only the first roll), a pass line bet wins on a 7 or 11; looses on a 2, 3, or 12; or sets the point with any other number.  After a point is set, a pass line bet wins if the point is rolled again, or looses if a 7 is rolled; if neither is rolled, the shooter rolls again, until either the point is hit or the shooter sevens out. So, the first quote is correct for the first roll, and the second quote is correct for the second and later rolls.

 * There is no requirement that the shooter make a pass line bet, and when I'm rolling I normally bet on the don't pass line, so saying when the shooter wins or looses isn't as simple as the paragraph states. Gentgeen 06:07, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My edits
Were quick and dirty but added some important info and some needed corrections.

Please move them around as you see fit. Foodmarket 03:19, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * speaking of edits, trying to add references to craps etiquette... have started anyway. These are actually pretty easy to confirm. At what point can the banner suggesting improvement be removed?

Carlw4514 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Bias?
This article seems to only deal with craps within the context of a casino. I don't know anything about the game, but I'm pretty sure it's widely played in much more informal settings.

Currently, craps is almost exclusively played in casinos. Up until the 1960's, many "after hour joints" (informal gambling halls) had crap games for wagering, and was very popular in that form until the 1960's. Law enforcement, the increasing popularity of casino play, the difficulty of finding talented dice dealers to run games, and the introduction of legalized casino gambling in New Jersey in the 1970's essentially did away with such "informal" crap games. When craps is played informally (for learning, socializing or dealer practice) the same "layout" or betting cloth is often used, displaying the same bets available in a casino. (Source: John Scarne's "The New Complete Guide") Dan Lubin.

Confusing
I don't know anything about craps and came to this article hoping to find out. However the article is very very confusing and disorganised. It's clearly written from the perspective of someone who knows the game and assumes the people he/she's writing to also knows. This is no use to someone like me. Rather than explaining the game in clear terms, it rambles out about all sorts of terms without really explaining them.

- I'm a casino dealer, and the game was explained very well by the author. We describe it the same way when we teach new players. Now keep in mind, craps is a fairly complex game in comparison to other wagering games such as blackjack, and the author also described the source of the game's odds, dice probability, and "house edge" in order to be very complete. He also described table protocol. As a casino dealer, I feel the author was right on the money in describing the game, though it is complicated. It takes a bit longer to pick it up than most games, especially if a complete description, including dice probability is offered, in order to be complete. Dan Lubin.

-- As someone recently new to Craps I can understand the confusion. Always remember the game is as complex as you want to make it through how many betting choices you want to take advantage of. I recommend to any novice as I was to start with a single bet (i.e. the Pass Line) and then slowly expand to learn new betting techniques as you get comfortable. With that said I think this article is very well written with logical examples. Reading about how to play craps is difficult in itself, when I just decided to go try it and experiement and watch other people I learned much faster. --Clint 6/27/06

 * I will be attempting to re-write this acrticle in my lunch break, because it is shocking. Just get anyone who knows nothing about craps to read it, and they still won't know. You really have to no know anything about craps to understand how badly it is written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.144.251.120 (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Barred Craps
How about an explanation before talking about it... I know what it means (usually a 12, but specifically it's what's printed on the table on the don't come line that pushes a don't pass bet)
 * The don't pass wager should reflect the variations of bar 2 (which is mathematically identical to bar 12) and bar 3 (which is not). I can't think of good text to use in the article, or I'd make the edit myself. 141.199.102.30 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Expected Loss Chart
I think the chart depicting amounts lost per 1000 bets of $10 is misleading. The same loss amounts could be stated for 20 bets of $500 or 1 bet of $10,000.

"Do it the hard way"???
RE: This line: "The terms 'on a roll', 'crapshoot', 'no dice', 'crap out', 'Snake Eyes' and 'do it the hard way' all trace their origins to the game of craps."

The first five I can agree with, but to attribute "do it the hard way" to Craps sounds extremely suspicious to me. The use of the word "hard" to indicate "difficult" surely predates the game of Craps.

Little Joe
The page for the Little Joe rocket says "Since their first cross-section drawings showed four holes up, they called the project "Little Joe," from the crap-game throw of a double deuce on the dice.[1]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.86.153 (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Street Craps
I know nothing about craps except that there's a stereotype that it's played on the streets of at least America, by incredibly poor people in inner cities. I see it daily in San Francisco, and was hoping to find out about it. I find it highly annoying, that although many people associate craps with African-Americans and crack, and even though it is a stereotype, the article talks nothing of this piece. this should be in the opening paragraph, even if to refute this. More evidence that Wikipedia has nothing to do with reality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.101.1.131 (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

 * Perhaps the mention was avoided in an effort to keep from perpetuating racial stereotypes, eh? Particularly those that aren't very well founded. I'm not sure that many people today associate the game with the stereotypes you mention.Realkyhick 21:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The page notes street craps 'reportedly' popularized by African Americans - the source is from 1938, likely not the most reliable source out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omozungu (talk • contribs) 22:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Odds
Can someone please example 'odds' bet. Where exactally do you place chips on the table for an odds bet? I can't find ANYWHERE that actually tells you this. For someone who knows nothing about the game this article is no where near enough to construct and play the game.--Dacium 10:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Your assumption is that this encyclopedia article should be enough to construct and play the game, but that's not necessarily the case. Rray 14:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Its not that article specifically should, but it at least should explain bets. For example if someone red this article and went to a casino they would still likly have almost no idea how to get odds. --155.144.251.120 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Adding this information to the article would be a great way to contribute to the Wikipedia. I'd encourage either of you to research the information and add it to the article along with the appropriate citations. That's what the Wikipedia is all about. (i.e., rather than asking someone else to solve the problem you perceive, be bold and solve it yourself. That's what makes the Wikipedia cool.) Rray 00:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * What is up with you? First you say its not a manual and shouldn't have the information. Then you say he should add the information. We obviously know what Wikipedia is about so why make all these filler responses? Anyway I am in the process of fixing the article.--Dacium 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * My original point was that the article was fine without that information. (That doesn't imply that it can't be added; sorry if I was unclear.)

 * My second point was that if you or he think that the article would benefit from the additional information, than you or he should add it instead of complaining about it and/or asking someone else to add it on the talk page. Rray 15:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Don't you think it would have been added if we knew the information? And the article was not fine without the information. How can an article about a game be fine when it doesn't even show how to play it??--155.144.251.120 05:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Not that the article should obfuscate because the casinos do, but it's worth mentioning that one of the few if not only no-house-edge bets in the entire casino has no markings or other indications that would let the player know he could make it. at any rate, to bet free odds on an established point, you had to have made a pass line bet first, and then you place the chips between you and the pass line bet, right behind the pass line.  to bet free odds on an established come number, you toss your chips to the dealer and say "odds on the [number]". 207.29.128.130 15:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Image Craps.jpg
The title image has incorrect copyright. Some one correct it, or replace it with a better image. Right now it looks like ripped off some casino webpage.--æn↓þæµß¶-ŧ-¢ 09:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, its a lousy image, and not at all instructive. 69.116.184.101 (talk) 01:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

fire bet clarification
What if the shooter establishes five points, and then sevens out on the next roll?

Does the player who wagered fire bet get to keep his 250:1 winnings?

The reason I'm asking is cause the player cannot take the bet off until he wins or loses. But since he won at the fourth and fifth roll (25:1 and 250:1 payout, but only gets credited the 250:1), does he have to specify whether to collect the winnings (and forfeit chances of winning the next bigger payout), or does he/she have to leave it there (but will collect highest winnings after seven out)?

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Il consiglieri (talk • contribs) 02:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

 * It goes on how many different pionts have been established and made before the seven out. No one gets paid until a seven out occurs. So yes he would get 250:1 instead of 25:1. You don't loose the bet going for another roll, you aren't paid until a seven out occurs.--155.144.251.120 03:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If a 7th point is thrown do the players with fire bets only get paid once, or do they get paid twice? Exp. if I had $1 on the fire bet would i get paid $1998 for points 6 and 7 or just $999. Thank you in advance Eyrxx (talk) 18:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Eyrxx

There cannot be a seventh point thrown. This is based on unique points made, of which there are only six (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10). For example, a shooter who sets and makes a point of 6 five times in a row would still only count as one point for the fire bet. A shooter who sets and makes 4, 6, 6, 8, and 9 has, for the purposes of the fire bet, cleared four points. 161.225.196.111 (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Table Layout
Anybody agree that the article would benefit from a table layout. -- ROASTY TOAST  21:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. Jimpoz (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

True odds and payoffs
What does everyone want with regard to the odds table? Should I have different odds for win, loss, push, and all the different payouts on the multiple payoff bets? For instance, on the don't pass, the odds of winning are 1031:949 (which is where the house edge comes in), but the odds of not losing are 244:251 (better than even chance). The odds of rolling the 12 are of course 35:1. CjPuffin 19:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

 * They should all be based on return for 1 unit bet. ie. what do you get on average for 1 unit bet, compared to what they should pay you. In other words because tie happens 35:1 the true odds (1:1 given odds) should actually be higher than 1:1--Dacium 00:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Advertising/Santa Ana Star Casino
There is reference on the table to the Santa Ana Star Casino's odds. This is inappropriate and transparent advertising and not suitable for inclusion. Unless you're planning on including the special odds offered by every single casino which offers them. Santa Ana Star Casino's page itself is clearly written by someone who works for them and the references are clearly designed to draw trade.

Don’t Play the PASS LINE or COME
I make many trips to Nevada, either Laughlin or Vegas. I really don’t care about house edge or percentages. When I play craps, I don’t play for percentages, I play for MONEY. Money is the only thing that counts and if you take a good look at the percentages, every chart would tell you play the pass line and come. WRONG. What’s important to understand is your initial bet for a point only pays even money. If you take into account the money invested on a point and full odds, you would be surprised of your actual winnings compared to the amount of money you put up. Haven’t most of you noticed that table odds have changed to 3, 4, 5 everywhere? The reason for this is to decrease the money paid out on points and increase the house edge. You would be better off placing the number. You would actually see a higher payout on a place bet than you would on the money you bet on the pass line plus odds.

Let me give you an example and then tell me its better to play the pass line or come. Now, I have to use odd numbers for this example (apples to apples) in order to show you the money. Let’s say your playing at a crap table with 3, 4, 5 odds. You make a $13 pass line bet and the point is 4. Now, you decide to take maximum odds. So, at 3 times the 4 or 10, the most you can put behind your bet is $39 ($13x3). You now have a total investment of $52 on the table hoping for the 4. The guy next to you didn’t make a pass line bet, but decides that the shooter is going to hit the 4. So, he places the point and tells the dealer to buy the 4 for a $50 bet. If a seven is rolled, you lost $52 while the guy next to you lost $50. But what if the 4 hits? Watch this. You win your initial $13, plus $78 for your full odds (2:1) for a total profit of $91. The guy next to you has to pony up $2 for casino commission. (Actually 4% because I have never seen a casino ask anyone for $.50 to reach the 5% commission) He now has invested the same amount of money as you, $52. The dealer hands him $100. That is not the same as yours and both of you have invested the same amount of money for the same number – only to see the other have $9 more than you.

You can take the same principle, with any dollar amount at 3x odds (for place or come on 4) and bet the same amount on the 4 or 10, and even if you DON’T BUY the number, the place bet will always payout more in profits. The same principle still puts a place bet on a 6 or 8 with higher profits than Coming with 5x odds on a 6 or 8. The 4 or 9 is even when it relates to profits on point plus 4x odds. I can talk about many examples or variations about why these charts do not tell the entire truth about total money bet and the actual amount paid out in winnings, but then I’d have to write a book. Sincerely, Frank.

 * WRONG. You are totally ignoring the money won the pass line bet. On the come out roll the pass line bet of $13 is twice as likely to win instantly than it is to loose instantly. The $9 more (actually $7 because you forgot to take the commission) is more than made back by money won on come out rolls.
 * 8/36 come out rolls the line bet wins $13 (8/36 to win $13)
 * 4/36 come out rolls the line bet looses $13 (4/36 to loose $13)
 * 3/36 the point is 4 or 10, and 1/3 of the time win 3x odds (3/36*1/3 win $91)
 * 3/36 the point is 4 or 10, with 2/3 of the time loose 3x odds, (3/36*2/3 loose $52)
 * 4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 2/5 of the time win 4x odds (win $91)
 * 4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 3/5 of the time loose 4x odds (loose $65)
 * 5/36 the point is 6 or 8, with 5/11 of the time to win 5x odds (win $91)
 * 5/36 the piont is 6 or 8, with 6/11 of the time to loose 5x odds (loose $78)
 * You can work it out to find that 100% total the result is -0.18 return. Now compare to just taking the point number:
 * 12/36 no point comes. you dont even bet 1/3 of the come out rolls.
 * 3/36 point 4 or 10, 1/3 to win $100 minus say $2 commision (win $98)
 * 3/36 point 4 or 10, 2/3 to loose $50
 * 4/36 point 5 or 9, 2/5 to win $75 minus say $2 commision (win $73)
 * 4/36 point 5 or 9, 3/5 to loose $50
 * 5/36 point 6 or 8, 5/11 to win $60 minus say $2 commsiion (win $58)
 * 5/36 point 6 or 8, 6/11 to loose $50
 * The result is a loss of -0.54 return. Even if you exclude the 1/3 of the time where you don't bet the result is still -0.36. You loose money twice as fast betting that way compared to betting the pass line. Any PC simulator will easily prove this.--Dacium 00:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning to put up a list of dice calls
Perhaps under "etiquette", or else in its own section along with the simple table that's currently there.

I'm thinking of a list of the various silly phrases that are thrown out by players and dealers in response to the various rolls. e.g.,
 * 2 + 5 is rolled... "cinco dos, adios"
 * 6 + 5... "yo"
 * 3 + 3... "the kitchen roll"
 * off the table... "too tall to call", "too high to qualify"
 * etc

I must admit, I'm a newbie here, this would be my first wikipedia contribution. But I think it's a good one, I have a long list of these fun shout-outs. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baronworm (talk • contribs) 14:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In Atlantic City I've heard 1 + 2 called "acey deucy." "Yo" isn't really a silly name; it exists to reduce confusion at a noisy table because "eleven" rhymes with "seven." Jimpoz (talk) 06:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Too vulgar
Isn't this a vulgar name for a game? Jonghyunchung (talk) 02:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

 * You're kidding, right? 204.58.233.6 (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

 * No, Even I thought that how come people call this craps as crap means shit. Though, I understand that, as milks doesnt mean lot of milk so, craps also is not the plural of crap, but still, coudn't people have thought of another name for this. Maybe people always ended up losing money to the house (all gambling games are rigged anway; mathematically or otherwise :) so they shouted crap (or shit! or whatever :) 76.112.206.81 (talk) 17:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

 * wow —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.237.53 (talk) 03:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Just like niggardly isn't a racial epithet, craps isn't related to feces. They have different roots and different entomologies.--69.12.151.50 (talk) 07:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't Pass / Don't Come odds
In the bet Odds section, the actual odds are listed as 244:251... Unless I'm crazy, this cannot be correct as a payoff of 1 to 1 would imply a positive expectation game (which is false). 244:251 ignores that 12 is a draw.

Shouldn't the correct odds be fair odds be P(lose) / P(win) which would be 976/949

background math: or am I missing something? Mgunn (talk) 10:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P(win) = 1/36 + 2/36 + P(!MakePoint) = 949 / 1980
 * P(lose) = 6/36 + 2/36 + P(MakePoint) = 976 / 1980
 * P(MakePoint) = 2 * [(3/36) * (1/3) + (4/36) * (2/5) + (5/36) * (5/11)] = 134/495
 * P(!MakePoint) = 2* [(3/36) * (2/3) + (4/36) * (3/5) + (5/36) * (6/11)] = 196/495
 * Note P(draw) = (1980 - 949 -976) / 1980 = 55/1980 = 1/36 Mgunn (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to fix it. -- Mgunn (talk) 20:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused because this paragraph: Don't pass odds: If a player is playing don't pass instead of pass, they may also lay odds by placing chips behind the don't pass line. If a 7 comes instead of the point coming, the odds pay at true odds of 5-to-6 if 4 or 10 is the point, 2-to-3 if 5 or 9 is the point, 1-to-2 if 6 or 8 is the point.

doesn't seem to agree with the chart: Don’t Pass Odds / Don’t Come Odds 	Same as paid 1:2 against 4 or 10 2:3 against 5 or 9 5:6 against 6 or 8 	0%

What's the RIGHT answer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.83.31.1 (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't Pass odds and Variance
In the section on Don't Pass odds, it says "putting up the long side reduces variance.". This is simply untrue, or at least untrue on the surface. For example, if the point is 4 or 10, the variance of laying 10 to win 5 is the SAME as taking 5 to win 10. And if you have a don't pass bet, and then lay odds on top of it, you have increased the variance from what it was before. If some other meaning is intended it should be spelled out. I removed the offending sentence Rjljr2 (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Free Odds
The article says:

 * However, the "free odds" bet cannot be made independently, so the expected value of the entire bet, including odds, is still negative.

There is one little-known way to place a free odds bet independently, and that is to find yourself at the table standing next to a player who bets the pass line but does not take odds. Then you ask that person, "Do you mind if I play your odds?" If the person, who you can assume does not know what pass line odds are by virtue of their not playing them, says yes, you can play free odds. (When I used to play Caribbean Stud, I never bet the progressive, and I have had instances wherein the player next to me has asked to play my progressive bet which request I always granted.) Jimpoz (talk) 06:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bet Odds on Fire Bet
Does anyone know what the odds and house edge on a fire bet are? Would that information be proper to include in the Bet Odds table? Joylock (talk) 19:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Such odds would be dependent on what was rolled as the point and on the odds of hitting each un-hit number while not sevening out and while coming out at least twice (odds against; 1:8 each time). Without doing all the math for a decision tree, I would say the guys who did figured a significant house edge as the payoff is big and it sounds simple to do. Liko81 (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Pass the dice on the Come-out roll?
roll big time The article states the following:

"If the shooter's come-out roll is a 2, 3 or 12, it is called "craps"; the round ends with players losing their pass line bets, and the dice pass to the next shooter."

I don't think this is correct, is it? I'm pretty sure the dice only get passed if the shooter rolls a 7 once a point is established. If the shooter rolls a 2, 3, or 12 on the come-out roll, that shooter continues to shoot until a point is established. At least, that's the way it works at all the casinos in which I've played. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toddhansen (talk • contribs) 06:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. The dice are only passed if a shooter 'sevens out'. 70.189.174.173 (talk) 02:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed in the article Rjljr2 (talk) 02:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Loaded Dice
Currently written (7.4 Gambler's Fallacy):

 * In reality, each roll of the dice is an independent event, so the probability of rolling an eleven is exactly 1/18 on every roll, even if eleven has not come up in the last 100 rolls, or if eleven has come up five times in the last five rolls. Even if the dice are actually biased toward particular results ("loaded"), each roll is still independent of all of the previous ones. The common term to describe this is "dice have no memory".

If the dice were loaded (enough), players could gain an advantage by observing rolls and betting accordingly in the future. This would remove the fallacy in "Gambler's Fallacy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.188.24 (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Actually, wouldn't someone who fell prey to the gamblers fallacy bet the wrong way if the dice were loaded? The gamblers fallacy is that things tend to "even out" in the long run, so that if there hadn't been a seven in a long time (due to loaded dice, lets say), a gambler subject to the fallacy would bet ON a seven happening, even though (in this case) the dice were loaded to avoid a seven! They would (incorrectly) believe a seven is "due".  Rjljr2 (talk) 00:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Place/Bet/Lay on established point?
The article says Players can buy or place any point number (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10) except for the current point. However, I have seen some online games that allow you to buy or lay the current point. Is the article correct that you cannot buy or place the established current point number? What about laying the current point? --24.9.149.180 (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You can place or buy (or lay) the current point, it is just not common because the player usually already has a pass (or don't pass) line bet, and if they want more money on the point they can use the free odds bet. However, some players don't play the pass/don't pass, and will commonly bet "32 across" which means 5 5 6 6 5 5 on the point numbers. If a player comes to the table in the middle of the hand, there is also the "Put" bet, which is a place bet that is made on the current point by placing your bet half way off the pass line space. I will delete the offending text from the article. Rjljr2 (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Language / Roles
The most compelling thing to me as a Craps lover is that it's a very boisterous game of chance made far more entertaining than other casino games because of the language and phrases used while playing. Many times, a good casino run pit will encourage the Stickmen/Boxman banter to stimulate bets. A list of interesting phrases heard and their meaning would be a great addition. "Coming out the wrong way", "Hard six, bring it out", or "Winner, winner chicken dinner" are a few.

The roles of the Stickman and Boxman should be defined and some may find it interesting how bets are placed. Most casino stickmen/boxmen need photographic memory in case chip tossers, dice, or a stack of dominoes (new money coming in during a shoot) causes bets/chips to be scattered. The Stickmen are usually comedians and the Boxman is the heavy but can add some great jargon as well. There is also no mention of the "on"/"off" markers used by the Stickmen when there are place/buy money after the point is made. Also, Stickmen tend to learn your typical bet(s) and will bet on your behalf asking for money (laying odds, playing hard ways, center bets, how you press, etc).

GreatZar (talk) 06:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)GreatZar

Perhaps I should clarify part of my last paragraph. If a point is set (say 6), you buy the numbers 4,5,8,9,10, and then the point is made, the stickman will ask if you want your numbers to work on the come-out roll and put a little marker on one of your chip stacks (on/off). If you tell him "no" and the "off" maker is set, a winning seven will preserve your bets. Then, if a point is set, your numbers buy may need to be rearranged to avoid the new point. This is the on/off marker I'm speaking of.

GreatZar (talk) 06:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)GreatZar

Plagiarized Material
Isn't a lot of this article copy/pasted from http://www.wagerweb.com/casino/craps-rules-game.cfm ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.45.52 (talk) 23:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Odds for Don't Pass / Don't Come - Revisited
Some older references list the house edge as 1.40%. However, this is the edge per bet resolved, NOT per bet; it ignores ties. See the "Don't Pass / Don't Come odds", above, for a calculation which includes ties. This works out to 1.36% -- which is the value which has been consistently display here. Larry (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, see http://wizardofodds.com/craps for a somewhat wordier discussion. Larry (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction!

From Dr. I. Needtob Athe - That's true, but the page currently gives the odds as 976:949 and the house edge as 1.36%. This is a contradiction. Odds of 976:949 are equivalent to losing 27 units out of every 1925 bet, or -1.40260%. This is the correct figure if you consider ties as unresolved bets. However, the figure next to it of 1.36% (1.36364%) implies odds of 223:217, which is the correct figure "per bet".

One way or another, the matter should be settled and the contradiction should be corrected. One possibility would be to explain the matter and provide both figures. If one figure is to be favored over the other, I would prefer the "per bet" figure of 223:217 = 1.36% because it's a more fair comparison to the pass line bet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.155.138 (talk) 04:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Volatility of Craps and Social Aspects of the Game
A few things I didn't see mentioned are reasons for popularity of the game - it should be mentioned that since a large number of players are betting very similarly (on the point and elsewhere) wins can be celebrated en masse, making it quite a social game with shouts heard across the casino. Also, it is a particularly volitile game (streaky), meaning you can win money fast, and lose money faster than other games, which adds to the excitement factor. 75.101.11.171 (talk) 14:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

-- dk -- does anyone have a clue as to where the name "craps" comes from? Inquiring minds. . . (and I'm certain this is not the right place to ask/post this question, but I couldn't find any better place -- email me at deliotk@hotmail.com with better instructions if you will -- thanks : ) -- dk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.182.241 (talk) 00:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Roll nicknames
It looks like the Lou Brown nickname originated on wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lou_Brown They did a Google at that time and couldn't verify it. Now it shows up, but it looks like those sources copied from wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.113.82 (talk) 03:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Mellenberg Rolls
I found this comment when trying to find more information on Mellenberg Rolls: http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/64346#comment-399832 168.122.10.233 (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Variants of the game
The mentioning of "Bank Craps" also known as "Las Vegas Craps", being a variation of Craps that is popular in Nevada "gambling houses" is confusing to me... The sentence appears to be describing the standard craps game that is played in casinos worldwide, so it seems a little awkward to call it a variation.... and secondly, it mentions that a string is stretched a few inches above the table... I have been to about 10 casinos in the US, Macau, and Australia, but have never seen a string stretched over the table. Is a "gambling house" different from a casino? Either this description is wrong, or else it needs to clarify where this variation is found.

Actually, because of the words "online" appeared in the same paragraph as the words "over a wire" in the original writing of this section (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Craps&oldid=358421813) I suspect that the original writer was paraphrasing from another source, and the phrase "over a wire" originally referred to playing an electronic version of the game over the internet, but this is an unfounded suspicion.

I'd appreciate if someone with a better understanding could clarify this section about "Bank Craps".

70.170.96.173 (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Sounds like something I might have read in one of the Hoyle books a couple decades ago. They commonly characterized a set of "current" or "most popular" rules for a game when nobody I knew had ever heard of it being played that way, and described a "variant" being similar (thought still not always accurate) to how the game was actually played in recent times at home and in casinos. — AlanM1 (talk) 10:12, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Geographical Nicknames
Missing from the list of geographical nicknames for points are "Big Dick from Punkin' Crick" and "Big Daddy from Cincinnati", both nicknames for the 10 (5-5).76.199.11.174 (talk) 05:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Field bet, erroneous table entry
I removed an entry in the payoff table which was just wrong, here is a spreadsheet of the different types of field bet with a breakdown of probabilities and how the house edge is calculated. CryptographicallyInsecure (talk) 00:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Non-encyclopedic
I'm not familiar with craps and came to this page to get a basic idea. I hope this is constructive criticism. A lot of the article reads like a guide written by a casino employee or a "part-time pro," not an overview of craps for an encyclopedia. The most obvious example of this is all of the advice about what the aspiring gambler "should" do. For example:

 * When joining the game, money (and I.D., if necessary) should be placed on the table rather than passed directly to a dealer. Keep in mind that the dealer's exaggerated movements are required so that any disputes can be later reviewed on security camera footage.

 * If a new player feels that he or she needs assistance in learning the rules of craps, it is recommended to approach an empty craps table at a slow time of day (for example, between 9 a.m. and 11 a.m.). The dealers are likely to be approachable and friendly and will explain the betting process.

 * If, for social or other reasons, play is required, one can reduce (but not eliminate) one's average losses by only placing bets with the smallest house advantage.

 * New players should familiarize themselves with them before approaching a craps table.

 * Food, drinks, cigarettes, and other items should remain off the chip rail and should not be held over the table.

The amount of attention given to the history of craps, it's place in various cultures, and the informal versions of craps that have been played in various milieu over time is minimal, the legal treatment of the game over time. Its like if someone replaced an article on Rock Music that described how it grew out of blues and R&B, its place in popular culture in the 1950s, how it is played in garages versus other venues, how it was transformed over time, the different sub-genres, the types of instruments used, etc. with an article "How to get a recording contract for your band."

There are academic sources on this topic. The first I looked up mentions that the game is thought to be of Arabic origin, which the history section here neglects. There must be a rich history of this game in prisons, among sailors and soldiers, and this article really sells that short. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.150 (talk) 15:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Anon editor 140.163, I agree with you. WP:NOTHOWTO covers this sort of "should" writing and IMO it "should" be deleted. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose the merger of Floating craps into Craps. The article on floating craps is a stub and would serve more benefit on the main article here. I don't think the article must be deleted (it is sourced) but it would be more useful here. Branchofpine, Have a chat, My edits 18:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Support merge - Makes sense. Actually, the only ref to it I've heard is in Guys and Dolls. O3000 (talk) 18:27, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 13:17, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Etiquette
This entire section has problems with sourcing, includes actual rules, not etiquette, and the concept is a bit odd. Hope no one minds, but I’ll take a hatchet to this when I get a chance. Opinions are welcome. O3000 (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Took a hack at it. I split it into "table rules" and "etiquette". Rewrote the rules part from sources. Etiquette is more iffy since it could easily be the size of a large article in itself, but I'm not sure how much trouble it's actually worth. I went over tipping and mentioned the "seven" thing, at least. If anyone feels like taking it on, the sources added for that section go through at least a couple dozen more rules. -- bornLoser (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the work. I forgot about the article. I'm a bit concerned about some of the sources. But then, good sources are scarce for this stuff, and it's certainly better now. O3000 (talk) 20:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Sucker bets
The section on "fire bets" introduced by Valoem is highly misleading, since it fails to mention a) the "bet" was introduced as a promotion b) the source tells us it's not "worth playing", which is omitted by our text. As a neutral summary of the source it fails dismally. I have explained these (and other) objections to Valoem here and here, but WP:BRD seems to be written in Linear B for all the good it did. Kleuske (talk) 21:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * You can add the information you stated, but it does not give any reason to its complete removal. Technically all bets against the house may be viewed as sucker bets. If you find a source that says so you can add it, there is nothing against that. Valoem talk contrib 21:28, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the bit about these sucker bets is WP:UNDUE (not being a standard part of the game) and promotional (trademarked) and last may Bri seemed to agree. I am eager to hear Bri's opinion here. Kleuske (talk) 21:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * SHFL and Galaxy Gaming craps table are pretty much in every casino. It's not UNDUE as it is a near universally offered bet at US casinos, if you still don't believe me after the sources I added go to a local casino and see for yourself. Valoem talk contrib 21:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And I'm still waiting for a source that confirms that claim. In the mean tiime, I checked this source and found it worthless, I checked this source, which calls it a side bet and as such, not a part of the game of craps any more than bets on socker matches are a part of socker. So still WP:UNDUE, still WP:PROMO, still misrepresenting sources. Kleuske (talk) 21:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Those sources show the bet exists and is register with the government as valid and legally offered, hence fortress.wa.gov. Besides that what "claim" are you talking about? Are you still suggesting that I am making this bet up? Or that the bet is non-notable and therefore promotional? Please go to a casino or do some research on the internet, I'd recommend going to a casino and try playing craps for the first time in your life. Valoem talk <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 21:55, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The bet is not part of the craps game (it's a side bet) and as such it has no place in this article. Apart from WP:PROMO, WP:UNDUE and the misrepresenting of sources. Kleuske (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a legally registered side bet, both bets are. They are available at nearly every casino in America so people would be interested in understanding them. Both bets are registered with the gaming commission, if you are suggesting to split the article go ahead, technically this article needs to be split many times. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 22:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Whether or not it's "legally registered" does not enter into it. It's not part of the craps game, but a side bet. And again, what's your source for claims of ubiquitous availability? Kleuske (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Variants and extensions of a game are certainly relevant to the article on the game. Whether they are "legally registered" or "sucker's bets" or "trademarked" isn't relevant. The question is whether these particular bets are important enough to include; we certainly can't provide an exhaustive list of every variant. Their importance can be determined by looking at how often they are discussed in reliable secondary sources. Toohool (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree. I’ve documented over 100 variations of blackjack elsewhere and gave up on the effort. Most don’t belong as they are simply not of interest. It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen a new variant of Craps that is notable. On the subject of "sucker bets", I don't think we should get into that classification. I could be convinced otherwise as some clearly are. Just don't think it's our job. We can link to respected sources that say so. O3000 (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And answer is of course, minor or local variants are not necessary for inclusion, however, these bets particularly the fire bet, is a notable variant. Mathematical studies regarding it's outcome have been establish here are a few additional sources. Physical Chemistry: Concepts and Theory, Basic Gambling Mathematics: The Numbers Behind The Neon, Casino Craps: Simple Strategies for Playing Smart, Lowering Risk, and ... I can provide additional sources if requested. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 04:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The house edge on the hi lo is 13.89 percent.
N — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.10.234.139 (talk) 01:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

 * No, the probability of rolling 2 or 12 is the same as the probability of rolling a 3 (or an 11), i.e. 1/18. So assuming the same payout as those, the house edge will be the same as well.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Major lack of sourcing
This is terrible. The entire article between Craps and Craps is completely unsourced, and has been marked as such for almost six years. This constitutes about 2/3 of this page. Why have these deficiencies not been corrected? Right now, this article is as useless a Wikipedia article as possible, because 2/3 of it is not WP:V. I'm not in the least bit questioning any of the content; it seems like a good and useful reference for the game. There seem to be people here with some expertise. Can this be improved? --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 05:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Image vs. Hard 4 / Hard 10 and Hard 6 / Hard 8
Craps

Craps

'''The payout in the table does not match the payout in the image. Which is correct ? '''

'''Thanks ! -''' 71.70.161.220 (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Craps


text:
Ilocos Sur

Ilocos Sur, officially the Province of Ilocos Sur (Probinsia ti Ilocos Sur; Lalawigan ng Ilocos Sur), is a province in the Philippines located in the Ilocos Region in Luzon. Located on the mouth of the Mestizo River is the capital of Vigan. Ilocos Sur is bordered by Ilocos Norte and Abra to the north, Mountain Province to the east, La Union and Benguet to the south and the South China Sea to the west.

Ilocos Sur was founded by the Spanish conquistador Juan de Salcedo in 1572. It was formed when the north (now Ilocos Norte) split from the south (Ilocos Sur). At that time, it included parts of Abra and the upper half of present-day La Unión. The current boundary of the province was permanently defined through Act No. 2683 signed in March 1917.

The province is home to two UNESCO World Heritage Sites, namely, the Heritage City of Vigan and the Baroque Church of Santa Maria.

Early history
Before the arrival of the Spanish, the coastal plains in northwest Luzón from Bangui in the north to Namacpacan in the south were a region called the Ylokos. It lies between the South China Sea in the west and the Northern Cordilleras in the east. On the western side, the land is sandy. On the eastern side (near the mountains that separate the region from the Mountain Province) the land is rocky, leaving a narrow strip of plain for cultivation. The mountains come so close to the sea that the highway is carved into them. The pressure of increasing population and the need for land made the people thrifty, and they built their villages near small bays and coves called looc in the local dialect. These coastal inhabitants were known as Ylocos, which means "from the lowlands". The region was then called by the ancient name Samtoy, from sao mi ditoy ("our language" in Ilocano).

Spanish colonial era
The Ilocos region was a thriving and fairly-advanced cluster of towns and settlements familiar to Chinese, Japanese, and Malay traders when the Spanish explorer Juan de Salcedo arrived in Vigan on June 13, 1572. The Spanish made Cabigbigaan their headquarters, which Salcedo called Villa Fernandina and which became known as the Intramuros de Ilocandia. Salcedo declared all of Northern Luzón an encomienda (land grant). He was the encomendero of Vigan and lieutenant governor of Ylokos until his death in July 1574.

Augustinian missionaries evangelized the region, establishing parishes and building churches that still stand. Three centuries later, Vigan became the seat of the Archdiocese of Nueva Segovia.

The coast of Samtoy was known to the Spanish colonizers in 1572, when Juan de Salcedo traveled along it. Sent by Miguel López de Legazpi to explore the island of Luzón, Salcedo founded Ciudad Fernandina in 1574 in Bigan, in present-day Ilocos Sur. It became the center of Spanish rule and influence, including the evangelization and pacification movements. Due to Salcedo's efforts, the settlements in Tagurín, Santa Lucía, Nalbacán, Bantay, Candón and Sinayt were pacified and paid tribute to the King of Spain.

Conversions
According to the Spanish chronicler Pigafetta, "The Ilocos are all Christians and are the humblest and most tractable". The Augustinians established parishes in Santa in 1576, Tagurín in 1586, Santa Lucía in 1586, Nalbacán in 1587, Candón in 1591, and Bantay in 1590. They built a church in Bigan in 1641 which, 117 years later, become the cathedral of the episcopal see of Nueva Segovia.

Partition of Ylokos
Ylokos consisted of the present-day provinces of Ilocos Norte, Ilocos Sur, Abra and part of Mountain Province. A royal decree of February 2, 1818 separated Ilocos Norte from Ilocos Sur, the latter including northern La Union (as far as Namacpacan, present-day Luna) and present-day Abra. The sub-provinces of Lepanto and Amburayan in Mountain Province were annexed by Ilocos Sur. The passage of Act No. 2683 by the Philippine Legislature in March 1917 defined the province's geographical boundaries.

Vigan
Vigan, almost four centuries old, was once known as Kabigbigaan (from biga, a coarse, erect plant with large, ornate leaves that grows on riverbanks). Bigan was later changed to Vigan. To the Spanish it was Villa Fernandina, in honor of King Ferdinand.

Vigan was founded in 1574 by Spanish conquistador Juan de Salcedo as the capital of Ylocos. The town, with a population of 8,000 (greater than that of Manila at the time), was the center of Malayan civilization before Salcedo's arrival. It was somewhat prosperous, trading with the Chinese and Japanese who brought jars, silk and crockery through the nearby port of Pandan, Caoayan.

In the 19th century, Vigan traded with Europe; ships loaded with indigo went to textile mills. The invention of chemical dyes in Germany eliminated this industry. Affluent citizens of Vigan stocked their homes with statuettes of brass and iron, dinnerware, and other artifacts of European civilization, including fine ivory, inlaid furniture, and Chinese wares.

Social institutions
Salcedo bequeathed his encomienda to a select group who continued the tenancy system which developed into the practice of caciquism, landlordism and usury. The kaillanes revolted against the aristocracy in 1762. Vigan's two sections during the mid-19th-century indigo boom—one for the meztizos and the other for the naturales—remain distinct.

Migration
Spanish colonizers used free labor in the development of Ilocos Sur. Resentment of free labor triggered sporadic revolts, and those who refused to be slaves or tenants left the region for Abra and the Cagayan Valley. From 1898 to the first decade of the 20th century, covered oxcarts moved to the rich plains of Pangasinan, Nueva Ecija and Tarlac. Children were told tales of Lam-ang, Angalo, Aran, Juan Sadot and other legendary Ilocano characters. Folk songs such as "Pamulinawen", "Manang Biday", and "Dungdungwen Kanto Unay, Unay" became popular.

During the second phase of Ilocano migration, from 1908 to 1946, surplus labor migrated to the plantations of Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast. Ilocos Sur's population density was 492 per square mile at the height of migration, which made it the most densely-populated region in the Philippines except for Manila. The last group of labor migrants to Hawaii was in 1946, when 7,365 men were recruited by the United States Department of Labor. Vigan was the recruiting center. More than eighty percent of Filipinos in Hawaii are of Ilocano origin.

Economic prosperity
The first half of the 19th century was an economic boom for Ilocos Sur. During this period, the cotton, tobacco and indigo industries were encouraged by the government. With the operations of the Royal Company of the Philippines (Real Compañía de Filipinas), the textile industry was developed on a large scale and the abolition of the tobacco monopoly accelerated economic progress.

Revolts
The beginning of Spanish rule to the first decade of the nineteenth century was characterized by revolts against tribute, forced labor and monopolies. The Ilocos revolt (1762–1763), better known as Silang's Revolt, was aimed at the babaknangs and the alcalde-mayor of Vigan. After Diego Silang's assassination on May 28, 1763, his wife Maria Josefa Gabriela continued the fight until she was captured and hanged on September 20, 1763. A revolt against the government monopoly of basi, the native wine, began on September 16, 1807. Regular troops and recruits defeated the rebels.

On March 25, 1898, Isabelo Abaya began an uprising in Candón and raised a red flag in the town plaza as a response to Spanish abuses and oppression. A revolutionary government was established, and several other revolts followed. The Spanish sent shock troops to re-occupy Candon, and most of the leaders and participants in the uprising who surrendered were arrested and executed.

Philippine Revolution and Philippine-American War
Ilocos Sur, like other Philippine provinces, rallied behind Emilio Aguinaldo in the 1896 Philippine Revolution. When Vigan was captured, the rebels made Bishop's Palace their headquarters. On March 21, 1898, Mariano Acosta of Candón established a provincial revolutionary government. When General Aguinaldo returned from exile in Hong Kong, he sent Manuel Tinio to wage guerilla warfare on the Americans. Vigan was Tinio's headquarters until it was occupied by the U.S. 45th Infantry Division under James Parker on December 4, 1899. Gregorio del Pilar died on December 2, 1899, in the Battle of Tirad Pass.

American invasion
Under the Americans, a civil government was established in Ilocos Sur on September 1, 1901. Mena Crisólogo, a delegate to the Malolos Congress, was the first provincial governor.

Japanese occupation
On December 10, 1941, a contingent of Japanese Imperial forces landed in Mindoro, Vigan, Santa, Pandan and Caoayan. In Cervantes, the Battle of Bessang Pass was fought between Tomoyuki Yamashita's forces and the U.S. 21st Infantry; it was the greatest victory by Filipino guerrillas over the Japanese Imperial Army in World War II. The guerrillas mounted a series of attacks that lasted for almost six months in early 1945.

Marcos era
Much of the history of Ilocos Sur during the 21 years of the Marcos dictatorship are not well-documented, with the most prominent portrayals of Ilocos Sur history preferring to skip from the years immediately after Philippine independence in the 1940s, jumping straight to contemporary times. Regardless, there were numerous human rights violations documented in Ilocos Sur during the Marcos martial law era, and there was at least one camp in the province that held political Prisoners during the Marcos era - a "Camp Diego Silang,"  which is different from the Police Camp established in La Union in 1989. Organizations such as the Federation of Free Farmers (FFF) and Federation of Free Workers (FFW), sometimes supported by progressive elements of the Catholic Church, continued to fight for the labor rights of the poor until the 1972 declaration of Martial law made it illegal to peaceful protests. Some of the frustrated protesters then opted to pursue an armed resistance against the dictatorship, many of whom only returned to peaceful life after the Marcoses were finally deposed by the civilian-led People Power revolution of 1986.

But the most prominent protests and incidents of the period actually took place before 1972, and involved the Marcos administration's support for local strongmen  rather than national controversies.

Bantay incident
Marcos' victory in the 1965 Presidential Elections had required that he gain political control of the north as a solid voting block, which meant forming alliances with the most prominent local "warlords" of the time - Ilocos Norte 1st District Representative Antonio Raquiza whom Marcos would later appoint as Secretary of Public Works and Highways; La Union 2nd District Representative Manuel T. Cases; and Ilocos Sur 1st District Representative Floro Singson Crisologo. Crisologo's cousin, Captain Fabian Ver of the Philippine Constabulary's Criminal Investigation Service, became part of Marcos' inner circle and eventually became one of Marcos' most trusted lieutenants. Historian Alfred McCoy noted in a 2017 article that "The Crisologos were one of the political families that was buoyed by the rise of Marcos to power, and that they were able to dominate their political rivals in Ilocos Sur as Marcos solidified his hold on power. McCoy also noted that Crisologo created a private army, which residents called the saka-saka, which literally means "barefooted" in Ilocano; controlled electoral offices; and used blockades to create a monopoly on the tobacco that came out of the province.

But a turning point took place in May 1970 with the so-called "Bantay Incident." The saka-saka assassinated a former mayor of Bantay, the town next to Vigan, in 1969, and then in May 1970, burned the villages of Ora Este and Ora Centro in retaliation for their residents' support for Crisologo's opponent Chavit Singson during the 1996 elections. One elderly woman who was killed in the blaze. Public opinion compelled Marcos to investigate the incident and arrest Crisologo's son Vincent, who was reported to be the leader the saka-saka at the time. McCoy notes that Crisologo reportedly went to Marcos and appealed for help, while demanding a greater share of rewards that Marcos had promised him in exchange for supporting his presidential reelection campaign in 1969. When Marcos refused, Crisologo reportedly then threatened to expose Marcos's and Ver's participation in cornering the tobacco monopoly in the Ilocos Region.

Assassination of Floro Crisologo
Shortly after his reported meeting with Marcos, Crisologo was killed on 18 October 1970 after being shot in the head while kneeling inside Vigan Cathedral during a church service, by a gunman who stood directly behind him and then escaped among terrified churchgoers. His killer was never found and the case remains unsolved.

No special election was called to replace him in Congress, and his seat remained vacant until the dissolution of Congress in 1972 following the declaration of martial law by President Marcos in 1972 and was only occupied again in 1987 following Marcos's overthrow and the restoration of Congress. Crisologo's murder and the defeat of his wife Carmeling to Chavit Singson in the gubernatorial race and that of his son Vincent in the mayoralty contest in Vigan to a brother of Chavit in 1971 led to the end of his family's political dominance in the province and the rise of the Singson family to prominence.

1986-87 Jose Burgos Jr provisional revolutionary governorship
When the People Power Revolution which ended on February 25, 1986 deposed Ferdinand Marcos from power, and installed Corazon Aquino as the new president of the Philippines, a provisional revolutionary government was set up in the country, and newspaper publisher Jose G. Burgos Jr. was appointed OIC Governor until a new constitution could be ratified and new officials elected.

2020 COVID-19 pandemic
Executive Order No. 12 and Executive Order No. 13, were issued on March 12 and 13, 2020, respectively, mandating the suspension of classes at all levels from March 13 to April 12, 2020, as well as the suspension of other school activities that involve the gathering of crowds, at both public and private schools in the province. On March 15, the province was placed under community quarantine through Executive Order No. 14 which restricted the movement of people to and from Ilocos Sur, mandated the establishment of checkpoints and conditions for transportation and travel, prohibited social gatherings, encouraged flexible/alternative work arrangements or suspension of work, suspended tourism, prohibited hoarding, delineated rules for business establishments, and imposed a curfew.

After the approval of "uniform travel protocols for land, air, and sea of the Department of the Interior and Local Government, crafted in close coordination with the Union of Local Authorities of the Philippines, League of Provinces of the Philippines, League of Municipalities of the Philippines, and the League of Cities of the Philippines," in Resolution No. 101, Series of 2021, Ilocos Sur Governor Ryan Luis V. Singson issued Executive Order No. 22, Series of 2021, mandating the travel protocols for implementation in the province. The resolution institutionalized the use of the System Safe, Swift, and Smart Passage (S-PaSS) Travel Management System, and the executive order eliminated the mandatory testing requirement for persons in specific traveler classifications who seek to enter or pass through the province.

2022 Luzon earthquake
Ilocos Sur was severely affected by the 2022 Luzon earthquake, which was felt strongly in Ilocos Sur for 30 seconds or longer. A total of 32 towns and two cities received damage, with the heaviest in Vigan. Nearly 100 homes were heavily damaged. Heritage sites in the UNESCO World Heritage City of Vigan were damaged, including the Vigan Cathedral and old-century houses, as well as few toppled power lines along Calle Crisologo. Parts of the old historic belfry of Bantay Church in the town of the same name also crumbled to the ground.

Geography

Ilocos Sur occupies the central section of the Ilocos Region in northern Luzon. It is bordered by Ilocos Norte to the north, Abra to the northeast, Mountain Province to the east, Benguet to the southeast, La Union to the south, and the South China Sea to the west. Its area of 2,596.00 km2 occupies about 20% of the total land area of Region 1. The topography of Ilocos Sur ranges from 10 to 1700 m above sea level.

Climate
The climate is generally dry as defined by the Hernandez climate classification—the dry months are from October to May. The southernmost portion in Cervantes is wet with rain evenly distributed throughout the year while the southeastern part of Sugpon receives less precipitation. The rainy season arrives in August while January and February have the lowest precipitation. The mean temperature in the province is 27 C. January is the coldest.

Administrative divisions
Ilocos Sur comprises 32 municipalities and 2 component cities, which are organized into two legislative districts. There are a total of 768 barangays in the province.

Provincial capital and component city

Component city

Municipality

Barangays
The 32 municipalities and 2 cities of the province comprise a total of 768 barangays, with Puro in Magsingal as the most populous in 2010, and Montero in Banayoyo as the least.

Demographics
According to the 2020 census, it has a population of 706,009 people, with a density of undefined PD/km2.

The 1960 census lists 338,058 people; 64,446 dwelling units of which 2,974 are lighted with electricity; 3227 provided with radio; 7379 served with pipe water; 25,137 served with artesian and pumped water; and 310 using electricity, kerosene and gas for cooking.

Inhabitants
Ilocos Sur is inhabited mostly by Ilocanos belonging to the third largest ethnic group of Austronesian origin. A Spanish chronicler wrote that “the people are very simple, domestic and peaceful, large of body and very strong. “They are highly civilized. They are a most clean race, especially the women in their homes which they keep very neat and clean.”

Miguel de Loarca records around 1582 that the Ilocanos are intelligent as the Zambaleños for they are farmers. The main occupation of the people is agriculture.

Father Juan de Medina noted in 1630 that the natives are ‘the humblest and most tractable known and lived in nest and large settlements'.

Language
Ilocano is the main language of the native majority in the province, with neighboring La Union recognized it as an official language since 2012. It became widespread in neighboring regions of Cagayan Valley (Region II), Cordillera Administrative Region and major parts of Central Luzon (Region III)—where Ilocanos settled—as a lingua franca among respective Ilocano and non-Ilocano residents. Ilocano is also recognized as a minority language in Mindoro, Palawan and Mindanao (particularly in some areas in Soccsksargen), where Ilocanos had have been significant residents since the early 20th century. It is a third most widely spoken language in the Philippines, estimating 11 million speakers as of 2022. The language has many speakers overseas, including the American states of California and Hawaii. Filipino/Tagalog and English are also spoken and understood in the region, utilized in business, education and media.

Religion
The province is predominantly Roman Catholic with 75% of population adherence. Aglipayan Church is also a considerable large minority with a 20% adherence. Other religious beliefs are represented by other Christian Churches such as Baptist and Iglesia ni Cristo wherein the largest minority has 80 plus lokal or kapilyas and barangay chapels built in the province. Denominations with 1–2% adherence include the Methodist, Seventh-day Adventist, and other Evangelical Christians, as well as Muslims.

Products and industries
The people are engaged in farming, producing food crops, mostly rice, corn, vegetable, root crops, and fruits. Non-food crops include tobacco, cotton, and tigergrass. Cottage industries include loom weaving, furniture making, jewelry making, ceramics, blacksmithing, and food processing.

Agriculture
Ilocos Sur's economy is agrarian, but its 2,647 km2 of unfertile land is not enough to support a population of 338,579.

Agricultural crops such as rice, corn tobacco and fruit trees dominate their farm industries. Secondary crops are camote and cassava, sugar cane and onions.

The rapidly growing population, the decreasing fertility of the soil, and the long period between the planting and harvesting season, have forced the people to turn to manufacture and trade. Many Ilocanos go to the Cagayán valley, Central Plains and Mindanao to sell Ilocano woven cloth.

Virginia leaf tobacco is still a premier cash crop, after a windfall brought about by the Tobacco Subsidy Law authored by Congressman Floro Crisologo in 1964, and later enhanced by the Republic Act No. 7171 authored by Congressman Luis "Chavit" Singson.

Weaving is the most extensive handicraft, once bolstered by the installation of the NDC Textile Mills in Narvacan which supplied the weavers with yarn.

Other industries are burnay and slipper making in Vigan, furniture, cabinet, and statue making in San Vicente, mortar and pestle making in San Esteban, and bolo making in Santa.

Electricity
All municipalities in Ilocos Sur are electrified, courtesy of the Ilocos Sur Electric Cooperative (ISECO).

Education
Ilocos Sur has 547 public schools including five general high schools, one university, one agricultural college and 56 private schools, 16 of which are Catholic.

Culture
The Ilocos Sur Museum, founded on August 22, 1970, has a collection of cultural treasures which include art include paintings, centuries-old sculptures, pieces of carved furniture, and relics of Spanish European and Chinese cultures that had influenced Ilocano life for centuries.

Chapters of Philippine history and religion are found in the Crisólogo collections which includes family heirlooms, centuries –old "santos" (religious statuettes made of wood or ivory), other ivory images, Vienna furniture, marble-topped tables, ancient-carved beds, rare Chinese porcelains, jars and jarlettes, lamps, Muslim brass wares, and Spanish and Mexican coins.

The Syquia collections, including then President Elpidio Quirino's memorabilia, vie in quality with the Crisólogo collections. But in the midst of a fire scare in Vigan in the late 1908s and 1990s, the relics in the Syquia Mansion were transferred to Manila for safekeeping.

UNESCO Recognitions in Ilocos Sur
UNESCO has inscribed two Ilocos Sur sites in the World Heritage List.

Heritage City of Vigan
In 1999, the Heritage City of Vigan was inscribed in the World Heritage List. UNESCO describes the site as:

"Established in the 16th century, Vigan is the best-preserved example of a planned Spanish colonial town in Asia. Its architecture reflects the coming together of cultural elements from elsewhere in the Philippines, from China and from Europe, resulting in a culture and townscape that have no parallel anywhere in East and South-East Asia."

Santa Maria Church
In 1993, the Baroque Churches of the Philippines, containing 4 properties, was inscribed in the World Heritage List. One of the properties was the Santa Maria Church of Ilocos Sur. UNESCO describes, "[the] unique architectural style [of the churches] is a reinterpretation of European Baroque by Chinese and Philippine craftsmen."

Notable people from Ilocos Sur

 * José Burgos — priest and one of the martyrs of Gomburza
 * Gabriela Silang — revolutionary leader, best known as the first female leader of a Filipino movement for independence from Spain
 * Leona Florentino — feminist, poet, and dramatist, the "mother of Philippine women's literature"
 * Isabelo de los Reyes — prominent Filipino patriot, politician, writer and labor activist, founder of the Philippine Independent Church (an independent Philippine nationalist church). He is known as the "Father of Philippine Folklore", the "Father of the Philippine Labor Movement", and the "Father of Filipino Socialism".
 * Elpidio Quirino — 6th President of the Philippines, 2nd Vice President of the Philippines
 * William Dar — 45th Secretary of Agriculture, and horticulturist
 * Sixto Brillantes — 21st chairman of Commission on Elections
 * Marcelino Crisólogo - Filipino politician, poet, writer, and playwright.
 * Jose Ping-ay - Filipino politician and founder of Ilocos Sur Cooperative Bank
 * Abraham Sarmiento - 119th Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the Philippines
 * Alan Purisima - 17th Chief of the Philippine National Police
 * Alfredo Verzosa - Filipino Catholic bishop and was venerated as a Servant of God in the Catholic Church
 * Leopoldo Jaucian - Filipino Catholic bishop
 * Pedro Bucaneg — poet and the "Father of Ilocano literature"
 * Leon C. Pichay - writer and poet, "King of Ilocano Poets" during the 50s.
 * Jose L. de Ocampo - Filipino architect and artist.
 * Nestor Redondo - Filipino comics artist
 * Virgilio Redondo - Filipino comics artist
 * Philip Vera Cruz - Filipino American labor leader, farmworker, and leader in the Asian American movement
 * Jose Maria Sison - Founding chairman of the Communist Party of the Philippines

 * Krishnah Gravidez – Resigned Miss Charm Philippines 2024, from Santiago, Ilocos Sur

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ilocos Sur


text:
Talk:William Clark

Clark
Who did William daddy Clark marry?FroggyJamer 04:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

He married twice: Julia Hancock and then Harriet Kennerly Radford, outliving them both.

Help Please -- ESP 00:27 4 Feb 2006 (UTC)

What did they discover [other than animals] on the Corps of Discovery?????????

Can the rumour of sexual affairs be cited? I found no source on that. Moonmaiden103 12:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It was an addition by an IP address know to be used by a vandal and has been removed. Kablammo 02:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation Page?
Someone requested that this page be moved to William Clark (disambiguation) because this is a disambiguation page. It's not and William Clark (disambiguation) is a disambiguation page already. joturn e r 18:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Never mind; it was a mistake on the requestor's part. He meant William Clarke. joturn e r 18:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Scottish-American?
I removed the description of Clark as "Scottish-American." I think in the context of describing someone born in 1770 that the natural implication of "Scottish-American" would be someone born in Scotland who moved to America, not someone born in Virginia of Scottish heritage. john k 03:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

i think someone should add more about the lewis and clark expedition. That's what he's known for the most, anyway. ~Pooja from Calfornia

family tree ? do you know who his the last clark in family tree at this time ? ?
Can you find out? and he was given land, where is land today? who owens the land given?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.25.105 (talk) 20:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

There are probably at least one hundred people alive today descended directly from William Clark. There is a family tree of all the known descendants you can see at the Bellefontaine Cemetary office. (I haven't ever sat and counted it all up, at least 100 is my best guess from memory)

You can find out what land Clark owned at the time of his death by looking at his will http://stlcourtrecords.wustl.edu/about-clark-probate.php

EugeniaSTL (talk) 20:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The earthquakes of 1811 and 1812
I know Captain Clark was the administrator of the Territory which encompassed the epicenter of those Madrid earthquakes of 1811-12. Where can I find a record of his reports and actions about this time period? Thank you. J C Kollmann (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)jc kollmann 0ct. 28, 2009

Edit request from MeriwetherLewis, 23 June 2010
Please add under further reading: Specht, August J. (2009). Defying Death, Not Duty: Deciphering the Mysteries of Meriwether Lewis. CreateSpace. ISBN 1449512100, 9781449512101.

MeriwetherLewis (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Welcome. This book is one of a small number written by Mr. Specht, who doesn't appear to be a historian by training or occupation. Including it under further reading would not benefit the reader or Wikipedia as much as it would the author. Can you explain your reasoning? Thanks, Celestra (talk) 19:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Another photo
There is a different photo of Wm. Clark in the 1912 book History of Spokane County by N. W. Durham, which has fallen into the public domain.

The photo is on page 4. The book is digitized here: http://books.google.com/books?id=NYEUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=history+of+spokane&hl=en&ei=6dtRTI3QNZKUnQes8bWZBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.253.255 (talk) 19:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Adopted Children
The article has no mention of Clark's adoption of Sacagawea and Charbonneaus' son and daughter. 67.68.39.16 (talk) 04:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from, 19 October 2011
Please remove that William Clark was the second governor of the Missouri territory because he was not.

166.70.81.133 (talk) 00:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct, he was the fourth. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:22, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2014
Under the "Marriage and Family" section of William Clark's page, it incorrectly states that the cemetery in which he is buried, Bellefontaine Cemetery, is registered as a National Historic Landmark. This is not correct as Bellefontaine Cemetery currently holds no such status, so that sentence can be safely deleted. Sources: National Park Service; my job as a historian for the State of Missouri.

168.166.80.168 (talk) 15:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

✅ Thanks for pointing that out - I suspect the confusion may be that, although the cemetery itself is not an NHL, the Wainwright Tomb, in the cemetery is. Arjayay (talk) 17:21, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Correction, the Wainwright Tomb is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, which is significant, but that is not as high an honor as if it had been designated a National Historic Landmark. There are fewer of those.Parkwells (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 21 March 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

– William Clark from the Lewis and Clark expidition is far more notable than any other "William Clark" on Wikipedia, and is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.  CookieMonster755  (talk)   01:55, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * William Clark (explorer) → William Clark
 * William Clark → William Clark (disambiguation)

 * Oppose it's close, a Google Books search shows this William Clark edging near the 66% of all William Clark hits combined. But taking into account all the Bill Clarks, William X Clarks on the dab, William Clarkes, etc. this isn't an ambiguation which benefits readers. The dab (explorer) is unlikely to deter any readers searching for the explorer. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * * Comment - How strange, only 66% of the searches are about William Clark the expolorer? In ictu oculi, am I aloud to withdraw my nomination?  CookieMonster755  (talk)   17:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guideline does not oblige titles with an absolute majority of hits to be put at baseline. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:12, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Support per the evidence presented by IIO. Two-thirds of all mentions certainly makes him the primary topic. -- Calidum  13:52, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - who on earth even comes close? Red Slash 22:43, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. The U.S. explorer gets nine of the top ten Google hits. The other hit is for a nonnotable local business. The initializer (talk) 09:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Far too many William Clarks for there to be a primary topic. Note that most people won't even know what the explorer's first name was (unless it was "Lewisand"!). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment --, your statement "most people won't even known the explorer's first name". Actually, your statement is incorrect, and I don't know where you got your information for that. From what I have observed, most people do know his first name, specially school children, because they do use his forename and surname.  CookieMonster755  (talk)   17:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course, Wikipedia is an international project and many people outside the US won't even have heard of the expedition, let alone the man! -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This is English Wikipedia, not International Wikipedia . -- CookieMonster755  (talk)   16:09, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That's English Wikipedia, not American Wikipedia, ! Language, not country (if it was the latter then English Wikipedia wouldn't refer to America anyway, now, would it?). I'm English, and I can guarantee that many of my compatriots won't have heard of the expedition at all and if they have done, most of them won't know the first names of either of the leaders. That will be the case with most people outside the United States, who won't be taught it in school as American kids probably are. That being said, William Clark is (as I said) far too common a name to have a primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, people in England don't learn about the United States in school? Because here in the United States, schools teach all about the United States, and including England, and France, and Germany, and our relations with them. Guess Britian is does not care about our history, lol. Regardless, we both have different opinions, fine, but lets just let the RM take its course and not argue over it. We will see the results when an administator closes the request. Cheers.  CookieMonster755  (talk)   18:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine American schools teach much detailed British history either, particularly after our paths diverged! Most countries' schools concentrate on their own history and international relations and events, not detailed discussion of other countries' internal affairs. What may be a big deal to people in their own country often isn't a big deal to people outside it. But we do indeed digress. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Indigenous Nations..." section and "extinction"
In that quotes are not used it's unclear if the Foley source cited states verbatim "the plight of destitute native people increasingly threatened with extinction" or whether this is a paraphrase by the Wiki contributor. If it's a quote, I'd be inclined to leave it alone and cite an alternative balancing source but if it's a paraphrase, it seems more accurate to state that these peoples were threatened with "assimilation" and "relocation" - not extinction, which strongly implies outright genocide. Yes, genocide occurred on the frontier but this is too broad a statement in this context, particularly where Clark was responsible for large territories where outright genocide was not a clearly established policy rather than an aberration and where Clark himself would have been strongly opposed to any policy of outright genocide. His record may be "morally ambiguous" with respect to assimilation and relocation but it's misleading to implicate him in a policy of "extinction." A discussion of the difference between coercive assimilation and genocide has its merits but they lie outside the scope of Clark as a topic. It's best to stick with what actually happened (relocation) in this context and leave the long-term interpretation for another discussion.Calawpro (talk) 17:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

boy
boy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.62.211.218 (talk) 18:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Identification
I've noticed a disambiguation section; this might be avoided by including in the title of the article Clark's full name: William Rogers Clark. This is important for another reason: The Rogers-Clark family came to the American colonies in the mid-1600s, ever since making important contributions to the founding and discovery of the present-day United States.

May also wish to consult "The Unknown Travels and Dubious Pursuits of William Clark," by Jo Ann Trogdon, University of Missouri Press, 2015 ... as apparently there was much more to William Rogers Clark than his expedition with Meriwether Lewis, notably the so-called Spanish Conspiracy, his association with James Wilkinson, the discredited general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HBNTexas (talk • contribs) 10:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Wss his full name really William Rogers Clark, or was it just William Clark? His brother Jonathan is also listed as simply Jonathan Clark, with no reference to his having a three-part name. Is there a source? Venqax (talk) 19:45, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2019
Add citation after: "Clark was consulted on affairs on a regular basis. In Louisiana and Missouri, Clark served the United States government for the longest term in history as diplomat to the Native American peoples."

Citation added = Ferguson, Gillum. “Clark.” In Illinois in the War of 1812. University of Illinois Press, 2012. (page 148-152) Professorjacobs (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Pending-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: You are now an autoconfirmed user and you should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. --Trialpears (talk) 21:13, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

== Introduction Section =

Why the mention that he was a slaveholder? That is unnecessarily editorial. It is not the kind of info normally stated in someone's introduction, unless the intent is to cast a shadow on their character. If the info is somehow considered relevant to anything, it could be worked into the article in context, somehow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venqax (talk • contribs) 19:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2021
Add the following reference to Further Readings:
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Please provide some sourcing to show this is a worthwhile work that is well received and reliable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Further Readings
Ourigan, Oregon by William Clark, et al. Sunny Lou Publishing, 2021, ISBN 978-1-95539-216-7. From the journals of William Clark, during the Corps. of Discovery's trip down the Columbia River. Mericlark (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Needs historical revision
Needs historical revision. Glorifies native American genocide. 151.52.29.237 (talk) 06:15, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

You realize you used the word "revision" unironically, comrade? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9366:E040:986F:DAAB:CE4C:6D4B (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

The Deconstruction of Slavery
I would like to add that Clark released his beloved Slave, York, whom he had grown up with has a young boy. He feared the well-being of York if he set him free. Many times freed slaves would be re- caught by slaves brokers and resold, or due to their lack of knowledge, experience and education, would find themselves in the wrong crowd and would end up in trouble. Later, at the urging of Sacajawea’s young boy, whom he took in and educated, he gave York his freedom, a wagon, horses and enough money to purchase land and a small house. President Jefferson did not believe in slavery and was even married to a woman whose mother had been slave. Many of the founding fathers did not but the system brought by the English had yet to be deconstructed. This was a new country with an enormous task ahead of them. 2601:3CB:100:3EE0:ECE8:D2B2:592F:3F87 (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2022
Clark was posthumously promoted to the rank of Captain, but this page only shows his rank as Lieutenant. See... https://www.nps.gov/articles/william-clark-officially-made-captain.htm#:~:text=Public%20Law%20106%2D507%20of,Militia%20of%20Upper%20Louisiana%20Territory. 24.160.172.206 (talk) 07:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: This is already covered in under Legacy and honors. I believe the infobox is just showing his rank during active service. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:07, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Additional locations named for Lewis & Clark.
There is an elementary school in Council Bluffs, Iowa. There is also a middle school in Omaha, Nebraska and another middle school which is temporarily closed in Bellevue, Nebraska. All the mentioned cities are along the documented route that the expedition took. As well Council Bluffs, Iowa was named after an event that took place during the expedition. Akasarben1978 (talk) 03:52, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:William Clark