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User talk:Zero0000/Archive 1

Greetings! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. You can sign your name with ~. If you have questions or doubts of any sort, do not hesitate to post them on the Village Pump, somebody will respond ASAP. Other helpful pages include: Have fun! --Jiang 06:46, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Welcome, newcomers
 * Manual of style
 * Naming conventions

Great a editing conflict when I was about to post a welcoming message. Your edits/input at Palestinian refugees and the talk page was awesome. Have a nice stay, and enjoy your day! BL 06:52, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Zero0000, I was merely holding a position based on what I have read on this subject, based on the belief that my sources were accurate and unbiased. Don't all of us operate in this way? If it so happens that these sources are shown to be inaccurate and biased, then I simply will no longer support claims to accuracy on these issues. As I respect science and history as sacred domains, I try to keep an open mind. As it happens, I have been reading what you and Bl have uncovered and discussed, and have done so with an open mind. I thus am willing to change my mind on this subject, and I defer to your findings on this topic. So relax, I now agree with you. RK 23:47, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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Um, I haven't heard any response from you, which is a little surprising since this topic seemed very important to you. But if you still are interested in this topic, let me know what you think about this excerpt on the issue of Arab population growth in Palestine; it is from The Encyclopaedia Judaica, Keter Publishing. RK

 * ISRAEL, STATE OF: ARAB POPULATION

 * In 1917, at the time of the British conquest of Palestine during World War I, the country's Arabic-speaking population numbered less than 600,000 persons; in 1947 it was estimated at 1,200,000. This enormous increase, by more than double in 30 years, was accompanied by steady progress in health, education, and standard of living. These achievements were partly due to the more efficient administration introduced by the Mandatory government, which improved security, consolidated land tenure and lessened the power of local autocrats, paid more attention to the needs of the villagers, expanded health and educational services, fostered agriculture, and abolished conscription. In the main, however, Arab progress-far superior to that registered in the neighboring countries, where Britain and France had introduced similar administrations-was connected with the growth of the Jewish community and its efforts to develop the country. This is shown by the comparative vital statistics, percentage of school attendance, and number of doctors, nurses, teachers, and so forth. Tax revenue received from the Jews by the Mandatory government enabled it to improve its health and education services for the Arabs. The Jews introduced better transportation and more modern banking and production methods; they provided an expanding market for Arab agricultural produce, as well as a convenient labor outlet. Their public services, which were partially at the disposal of the Arabs, stimulated them and the government to create similar facilities for the Arab population. Thousands of Arab immigrants, mostly illegal, entered the country throughout the period....

 * ...The first official census in 1922 counted some 752,000 inhabitants, of whom 83,790 were Jews. Of the 668,258 non-Jews, 78%-589,177-were Muslims; there were 71,464 Christian and 7,617 Druze and others. In March 1947 the non-Jewish population was given as 1,319,434: 1,157,423 Muslims, 146,162 Christians, and 15,849 others. (The figures for Arabs in 1947 were, apparently, inflated because of the institution of rationing in 1942 and the consequent reluctance to report deaths.) Most of the Christians were also Arabs, but their total included a substantial number of English, other Europeans, and Armenians as well.

 * Most of the Arab growth was a result of the extraordinary natural increase, due to the fall in the death rate and the rise in fertility, while the birthrate remained stable. Natural increase rose from 23.3 per thousand in 1922-25 to 30.7 in 1941-44. Fertility, as measured by the average number of children born to a Muslim mother, rose from 6.1 in 1927-29 to 8.1 in 1942-43...

 * ...Improvements in health conditions by the drainage of swamps, better sanitation, and modern medical methods were largely responsible for almost halving the infant mortality rate among Muslim children and raising the average life-span by more than ten years.

 * ...Part of the increase in Arab population, however, was due to migration. In the 20 years between 1922 and 1942, 20,015 Muslims, 15,645 Christians and 336 others (excluding Jews) were officially registered as immigrants to Palestine. Since there was considerable unrecorded movement of laborers across the borders, especially from Syria, the actual number of immigrants was undoubtedly much larger; it has been estimated as high as 100,000.

Consider the evidence in the article itself: rate of natural increase from 23.3 per thousand in 1922-25 to 30.7 in 1941-44. Even 23.3/1000 is enough to explain population doubling in 30 years, and 30.7/1000 would double in only 23 years. So it is hard to see where an extra 100,000 could fit. Also, these rates of increase are not all that high by Arab standards--in fact by Jewish standards either. The current rate of natural increase amongst Palestinians is about 45/1000 and for Israeli haredim about 40/1000 (doubling in 18 and 16 years, respectively). -- zero

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I am sorry, Zero0000; I should have read your words more charitably. I was just pissed because I have been dealing with a lot of new contributions on Wikipedia, containing some truly terrible stuff. (i.e. moral equivalency between any actions of the USA, and the World Trade Center bombing, and long-winded apologetics for Yemenite Arabs to murder Americans. Heck, people even suggested ratios of how many Americans could be murdered, and still be considered fair and ethical.) Many of the comments which I have been fighting off were a form of moral equivalency presented as "balance". So when I read your words, it (at the time) seemed to be in the same boat. Now I know better. I apologize for being quite wrong about you. RK 03:20, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Edward Said article
Hello, I am curious: For what reasons do you think the Edward Said article "badly needs work"? -- Viajero 15:33, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, it's not as bad as it was when most of it was just a (mostly ignorant) attack on him, but the main thing missing is a proper analysis of his writings other than his activist writings. Orientalism is mentioned briefly but incorrectly--he didn't revive anything, he used the word to label a particular existing discipline that he attacked. I've been trying to get a friend who understands this stuff to write a few paragraphs, but nothing yet. -- zero

 * Ok, I'll take that as a backhand compliment; I recently gave the article a complete overhaul, removing a lot of what I agree was a lot of nonsense, but I suspect you could have done the same, and in fact you should have; it would have been more constructive than a non-specific slag-off on your user page. I also agree that the piece begs more discussion of his academic writings, but in the absence of a specialist I hope it will do. On the other hand, maybe it is now a decent encyclopedia entry: just the basics, with pointers for those that need more information. -- Viajero 19:50, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I dont know exactly whats going on bettween you and RickK on Hezbollah -- I want to know --whats the issue? why the back and forth? - 戴&#30505sv 03:02, Sep 7, 2003 (UTC)

 * I tried to explain on Talk:Hezbollah. Don't know if it will help. --zero 08:43, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You beat me to the RK revert on Edward Said...thanks. Bcorr 16:25, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * You'll get your chance, he isn't done yet alas. --zero 04:15, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Palestinian National Council
Zero, I put together a rudimentary page on the Palestinian National Council. Since you seemed to be interested in Palestinian topics, perhaps you'd like to take a look/add/change/... -- Viajero 14:19, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, excellent start. I made some trivial edits and hope to add some additional material over the next few weeks. --zero 03:49, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your kind words. Perhaps you elucidate the relationship -- whatever it may be -- between the PNC and the Palestinian Authority, something I wondered about while writing it but found no answer. -- Viajero 06:57, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * I'll try, but it is complicated. It doesn't help that there have been at least three organizations called the Palestinian National Council (which should also be explained...so much to do). -- zero 08:41, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Could you take a look at the discussion between Adam Carr and myself at Talk:Adolf Hitler. I think we are veering into POV in the article. Thanks. Danny 14:27, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Zero, thanks, I had seen that reference. See my new piece on Herschel Grynszpan Adam 05:59, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the confidence! The IDF article certainly needs some help. The same old propaganda sneaks up in the strangest places, in this case it seems like someone decided that the article needed a fast-forward version of Israel's history. But I'll try to clean it up to the best of my abilities right now. BL 20:30, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Nice recovery from the edit conflict. I think your version is better than mine. I know little about what happened; I was mostly copy-editing. It's not easy to write neutrally while taking sides (I'm pro-Jewish), but *sigh* we all try. --Uncle Ed 19:35, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Uncle Ed. Btw, we all much appreciate your work around Wikipedia,  --zero 23:23, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Zero, re your comments.
 * If people raise issues with me on Talk pages, I reply on the same page. If people raise issues with me at my Talk page, I reply at their Talk page, as I am doing now. Is that not the etiquette?
 * Yes, it is OK, but what usually happens is that the same debate resurfaces later on on the Talk page, introduced by people who know nothing of the earlier discussion. So then someone (perhaps you) will need to rehash it all.  Overall it is better if substantial issues (not just quibbles) are debated on the Talk page so that people can see what has been debated before and understand the reasoning behind what is in the article.  It also keeps the debate in one place (as opposed to two places like you are doing it now). --zero 07:46, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Cheers Adam 04:46, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * On deleting the old Talk:Adolf Hitler, I said: "I don't know if I am allowed to delete old Talk, but I have, because otherwise the file is too long for me to open it. Someone can restore it if they want. It was mostly irrelevant anyway." No-one objected and no-one restored the deleted text, so I assumed no-one missed it.

Z: No worries. I must read all your Palestine stuff some time. Adam

Re Amira Hass, we shouldn't be using extlinks as a cheap substitute for missing articles. If someone writes articles about those awards (which is completely likely), your extlink reference won't "light up" with the Wikipedia explanation. Those articles will also have the appropriate external links, better there than replicated in each recipient's article, plus the reader isn't stuck when the website goes dead, which has been happening to a bunch of extlinks lately. Stan 14:26, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Do you really think John Elliott is worth an article? I don't. Also, have a look at the edit war I have been having at Jim Cairns and Junie Morosi. Where do these people come from? Adam 13:12, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Z, Thanx for that, I look forward to yr comments. I don't know who you-know-who is but I dare say I can handle him/her/it. Adam 09:02, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi, Zero. I had a lot of problems writing that statement, precisely because of the point you just raised. I may personally stand by it for a number of reasons, but it certainly can be modified. My general response is that yes, many (but not all) Messianic Jews are, in fact, ethnically Jewish, i.e., they have a parent or grandparent who was Jewish). There are also many who have no connection to Jews in that sense. Instead, they are either evangelicals on a mission or people trying to revive some anachronistic idea of the Early Church. On the other hand, it is undeniable that there are many people of Jewish origins in groups such as Jews for Jesus, and these are the people that the groups tend to highlight. The question is, then, the hotly contested--what makes someone Jewish. Messianic Jews are rejected wholesale by the Jewish community, but I will try to modify the sentence to meet your concerns. Let me know if it is acceptable. By the way, the debate you are having over the Judaism = a tumor issue seems to me to be totally unrelated to the article. That pastor was referring to converting Jews to Christianity proper, which is not Messianic Judaism. I will take it out. Danny 14:06, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Zero, does that conclude your comments on my Zionism article? I will change the reference to the population of Palestine (not that that is an issue that this article ought to get too deeply into). I think I am going to restructure it so that there is a section heading Opposition to Zionism, at which I will discuss: opposition to Zionism among Jews before 1948, ditto after 1948, opposition to Zionism among Arabs (which will lead off to Israel-Palestine conflict article), and opposition to Zionism among everybody else. I will use some of the more respectable bits from anti-Zionism. Is there anything else you think I ought to cover? Adam 14:36, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Zero, If you think this paragraph needs replacing, you will need to tell me why and with what.

''And indeed relations between the Arabs and the early Jewish settlers in Palestine were generally harmonious. Jewish settlement and investment in Palestine stimulated Arab immigration from other Arab countries, and the Jewish and Arab populations grew in tandem to their mutual benefit. At this time, it seems, there was no sense of Palestinian national identity, and apparently no opposition to Jewish settlement. '' Adam 10:17, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Re your two separate comments on the above para. If you could write a paragraph to replace it that would be good. BUT bear in mind this is an article about Zionism, not about the history of Palestine, so it can't be too much longer than the para it is replacing. It might indeed be easier just to delete it. Adam 12:58, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Re the Bund, take it up with Danny, he contributed that bit. The finer points of Yiddish are beyond goyischer understanding I'm afraid. Adam 13:02, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK well you two have a conclave and see what you can come up with.

I am writing Edgardo Mortara now (I seem to be developing an obsession with Jewish history) - are you an authority on this too? Adam 13:25, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

You will hear lots about Edgardo Mortara soon because there is a film coming. Adam 14:02, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi. I am checking with someone at work who knows quite a bit about the historical Bund. I noticed the differences when I added the Yiddish, but just left it till I could check with him. I have a day off tomorrow, so I will see what I have about Ahad Ha'am around the house. Mortara is a fascinating topic. Not very well known now, but it was a major sensation back in the days of Pius IX. His great-grand niece is still around in Italy and was very upset, apparently, about the beatification of Pius as a result. Didn't get quite the press as Mother Teresa (thankfully) or even as much as St. Edith Stein, but it is an interesting story and relates to the issue of forced baptisms. In some way it relates to a project I am working on now--non-Jewish rescuers during the Holocaust--since there is an ambivalent attitude about Catholic rescues. Many were genuine acts of kindness (I like the term "a conspiracy of good"), but in certain instances, there was a lot of pressure on some people to convert. I won't get into Cardinal Lustiger, because I haven't researched all the details (What's the difference between the Cardinal of Paris and the Chief Rabbi of Paris? The Cardinal speaks Yiddish), but Mortara was also a forced conversion, ostensibly for the good of the child. Lemme do some checking. Oh, and Zero, Yiddish is really easy to read if you can read Hebrew and speak German. Aleph is an "a", Kametz aleph is an "o", ayin is an "e", vav is a "u", yod is a "i" and two yods are a "ei". All the rest is the same, more or less. It's mostly German, with just a smattering of Hebrew. A German Catholic roommate of mine a long time ago used to say that when I tried to speak to him in German and ended up speaking Yiddish, I sounded like a Bavarian. And that is Yiddish in a nutshell. Danny 23:14, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Edgardo Mortara is done, but it is mostly cribbed from online sources and needs to be checked by someone knowledgeable. Adam 00:07, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I made another major cut to Anti-Semitism. Still needs more pruning, but now I will wait for the controversy over this cut to die down. Danny 15:15, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sadly, I think I agree with you. I laid the basis for a skeleton, but got a lecture on the "wiki way" and had someone add the France 2001-2003 bit again. It is very frustrating. We could try what you suggest, but I wonder if people won't do the same to that article. We can try. What do you think of the skeleton I proposed? Danny 00:20, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am pretty sure the Armenian quote is an urban legend (ranks up there with Christian X and the yellow star). Danny 00:58, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Reminder:

Team: I have now placed a somewhat trimmed version of Zero's text on Zionism and the Arabs in the article, and done a general edit. Comments please. Do we think we are close to having a text that can replace the existing Zionism article? Adam 13:22, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi. The thought just came to me that the Elon Peace Plan doesn't actually qualify as a Proposals for a Palestinian state. How can giving someone an already existing nationality qualify as "creating a state". Shouldn't the short description of the Elon Peace Plan and the link to that article be removed from Proposals for a Palestinian state. WDYT? --snoyes 15:55, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The Palestinians are already the majority among the Jordanians. Another reason why it qualifies is that Jordan was part of the British Mandate of Palestine. Der Eberswalder 16:49, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * If only Jordanian citizens are counted, Palestinians form a slight minority. Counting all Palestinians living in Jordan, the percentage is too close to call.  Adding the residents of the WB would make a clear Palestinian majority.  The British mandate is irrelevant. --Zero 00:37, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Zero, while you're at Zionism, you might like to come up with a new bibliography and set of external links. Adam 11:30, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Done. I'm just tired of arguing about this topic and all its subtleties with someone whose arrogance overshadows his ignorance. I have long been limiting my Wikipedia presence as a result. Danny 14:38, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi. Not worth the effort. As someone else pointed out, his world is black and white. I prefer a little diversity and color in mine. Danny 02:24, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Not that it matters but I think JeMa is RK. Danny 00:08, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Z, re Ariel Sharon, yes, looks clearer; i'm pretty ignorant of the subject matter (and don't even recall how i wandered into having him on my watchlist), so i just deal with the logic. I think of it as leaving stubs for someone like you to weld facts onto. Tnx! --Jerzy 14:57, 2003 Nov 29 (UTC)

Zero, do you have an e-mail or Instant Messaging applet of some sort? It seems much of our back and forth could be taken care of much more efficiently if we can debate these issues in some fashion other than summary sections of our edits. -Leumi

 * Sorry I don't have an email address suitable for this. You can write messages here if you want. --Zero

Zero, I am in the process of documenting User:Leumi's extreme impartiality and could use your help. Could you collect about a half-dozen of his most egregious edits for me? The most useful form would be the URL from the "Page history", like this:
 * http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Zero0000&oldid=1756590

You can drop them on my Talk page with any additional comments you'd care to make (or send me an email via the email link). In any case, I could really use your support on this. Thanks. -- Viajero 20:23, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Hi again, I was just working on Palestine Refugee and saw your comment on the Talk page. Zero, please, please, PLEASE do not allow Leumi to drive you away. This project (Wikipedia) is too good to let it be overrun by zealots. I know that it is a frustrating, emotionally draining experience dealing with his monumental intransigence, but the important thing to realize is that you are not alone. The overwhelming majority of people in this online community are committed to encyclopedic neutrality; the problem is that not everyone is equally well informed about all the issues, and this is where we really depend on. Once others understand what is going on, Leumi will be stopped. That I am sure of.

 * In the meanwhile, I moved the reference to Peters out of the Palestine Refugee into a Talk with an excerpt from a review of it which should make it abundantly clear etc etc.Can I entice you to return to the article? As I see it, our options are as follows: we can either rewrite the text from scratch or merge it with another article. Or simply pare the existing text down to bare facts, three or four paragraphs at most. What do you think?

 * If you have further conflicts with Leumi, revert him a few times and then drop a note on my page or someone else's asking for support. I repeat: you do not have to wage this battle alone. In solidarity, -- Viajero 22:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Hi, thanks for the note. FYI, I have just left a message on User talk:Leumi which sums up my view of the situation. Comments welcome. To be continued... -- Viajero 11:28, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hi zero! Sorry I haven't gotten back to you earlier. Life has been busy and all that and WP hasn't been a priority for a while. I do like the Kfar Kassem massacre article. It seems fairly complete although I know there are a few more details missing. Like the quote that compared the trial after the massacre with Nuremberg because the soldiers said they were just "following orders". I just can't find the book where I found those details. And thanks for coming to "my" defense regarding the destroyed villages article. I really don't understand why that page is generating so much heat. Cya 'round! BL 11:45, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero, see:
 * http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-December/008928.html
 * User:Viajero/Leumi
 * -- Viajero 15:46, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hello, you seem like a reasonable person. Can I have your opinion on ? Thank you. -- 213.73.231.245 01:49, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I wrote something in that talk page. I'm not likely to work on the article itself, but the comments and links I left might be useful for someone else who wants to, such as yourself. --Zero 12:06, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Done!: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-December/008946.html -- Viajero 12:16, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

New: From Time Immemorial. Just in case it escaped your attention. -- Viajero 12:47, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * never mind, just saw your comment. -- Viajero 12:48, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

progress? maybe
Hi Zero, as you will have seen, we seem to be slowly reaching the point where we can have the pages unlocked and we can move forward. It is good to have Ed Poor involved; he seems to have boundless energy for handling conflict and is absolutely committed to editorial neutrality. He occasionally makes strange decisions, but he is quick to undo them if asked. In any case, I hope you will henceforth not be left to wage solitary edit wars. As I am sure you realize, in such a bitterly contentious area, these articles will never be really good; the most we can hope for are texts which no one has any major objections to. Asi es la vida. Take care, -- Viajero 11:50, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please leave me out of your personal vendetta against Mr. Rk. Your false accusations have only convinced me that your critics have valid points, and that I have been treating you far too charitably. In the future, I will treat your claims with far more suspicion. JeMa 17:55, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

Zero, I just noticed your comment viz-a-viz RK and JeMa on the talk page of Zionism. If you have such suspicions, it best not to air them publically. There are ways of determining whether this is true or not. -- Viajero 16:32, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * A developer checked for me. Not likely the same. -- Viajero 03:12, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Well, actually is does matter. RK has been banned once already. If it were proven that he is using a sock-puppet account here, it would have serious repercussions. To be more precise: both users appear to be in the NY area and log in at different times, hence it could be a home/work scenario. IOW, if it is the same person, they are covering their tracks carefully, as you suggest they would. Sorry, wish the answer was more definitive. -- Viajero 13:07, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero, thanks for the article. I was aware of that story from previous things I have seen online but I didn't know it had reached such an acute stage. I will draw it to the attention of some people here. I imagine their long-term solution must be emigration to a third country. You might know that the High Court of Australia has just granted refugee status to a gay male couple from Bangladesh, which establishes an important precedent. Adam 06:26, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Regarding Golan Heights - Viajero has asked to be consulted before it's unprotected. I'll go ask on IRC right now, and see what people have to say about it. Pakaran 03:31, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * As an update - I now unprotected all 5 Israel-related pages. They may be re-protected if there's massive edit wars, but I'd like to think Leumi is quieting down a tad now.  Pakaran 03:48, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, I was waiting for someone to delete the crap. Danny 23:56, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero you are editing the wrong article. I copied my draft (with some modifications) into the main anti-Zionism article a few days ago. I should have re-directed the draft page to the main page, sorry to have wasted your time. Adam 13:01, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero, I am glad that we are improving each others work rather than deleting it in wholesale now. Its much better, and harder, to work together to improve an item than to delete it. OneVoice 13:28, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The truth is, I am getting quite tired of that page. If you check the history, you will find one of the more vicious fights I had with RK (he removed a lot of it from the Talk), because he wanted to vilify all ultra-Orthodox as anti-Semites (I shit you not). Now Ezra Wax, who is on a divine mission to insert his POV. It's too tiring and stressful. I would much rather clean up the anti-Semitism mess, or even just add in my movie tables. I will wait till the fanatics wear each other down. Danny 01:55, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero0000 we had an simultaneous edit conflict? doesnt Wikipedia have a method of alerting people that a page is in edit! Senseis Library does (senseis.xmp.net). Please take another look at Proposals, some of your edits may have been lost due to the simultaneous edit

I'll incorporate sections from Elon's page verbatim. We can agree that his words are his words. OneVoice 13:35, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up; looks similar indeed. As for Elon, I suggest we wait out the voting period (-/+ five days) and if it doesn't get deleted, we pare it down to a bare minimum, similiar to how it was a month or so ago. Either that, or merge it somewhere else. -- Viajero 19:26, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Tanya Reinhart: like to add anything? -- Viajero 20:53, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Continued at: User talk:Zero0000

title: User talk:Zero0000/Archive 1


text:
User talk:ZeWrestler

WikiProject New Jersey Newsletter (August 2008)

 * Newsletter delivery by xenobot  18:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

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WikiProject New Jersey Newsletter (September 2008)

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WikiProject New Jersey Newsletter (October 2008)

 * Newsletter delivery by xenobot  13:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

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Syracuse pics
Hi ZeWrestler -- FYI, pics you took and uploaded to commons have been added to Hanover Square, Syracuse article, and have replaced some in the List of RHPs in Syracuse article and/or individual NRHP articles. Not sure if you may have taken pics of other buildings listed in the Hanover Square Historic District. Anyhow, thanks! doncram (talk) 19:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

 * You're not in Syracuse these days, by any chance? There's an event tomorrow morning, Wednesday July 21 I would very much like to invite you to, if you are.  Also there could be a social event or two coming up, about which i would send announcement by email rather than announcing online. (If interested, case please email me, i have an email-to-me link at my userpage). --doncram (talk) 12:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Marcus LeVesseur
Any thought on notability? User:Calebrw/Marcus_LeVesseur. Very much a work in progress. Also any tips on where to ask more questions a wrestler article? Please reply on my talk page. Thanks, Calebrw (talk) 00:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

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If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on [ this link]. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification (7 days if uploaded before 13 July 2006), per our non-free content policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. – sgeureka t•c 08:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

FAR notification for Phishing
nominated Phishing for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. D.M.N. (talk) 19:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Paypal Phishing.png)
Thanks for uploading File:Paypal Phishing.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Re: Yuna
Why is it always *after* something gets cleaned out this comes up? As for the SE project, no, they weren't informed, but other than PresN it's been pretty much dead as well. However no significant third party sources really turned up to base an article on Yuna at all either, and the idea was originally suggested on the videogame project's talk page in passing to go ahead and do.

If you're going to revive it, can I please recommend building a critical reception paragraph for it beforehand?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I apologize, that was a terrible tone. It's been a long day on my end. If you do oppose a merger then feel free to revive it, though it does sincerely need third party critical reception and some trimming on parts of the content...it's a mess in some areas.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:LOZAnimatedTitleScreen.jpg
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Speedy deletion nomination of Windows Longhorn
A tag has been placed on Windows Longhorn, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam as well as FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. (GameShowKid)--(talk)--(evidence)--( 16:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Vanish
You may be interested in a new comp sci article I just posted, Vanish (Computer Science). I'm still working on fleshing it out, but being new to wiki it may take me a while to get it looking right. Haqui11a (talk) 17:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at WikiProject New Jersey
Hi, ZeWrestler, User:Nightscream and I had a disagreement over certain parts of NJ municipality articles; because the discussion could potentially affect hundreds of articles, we decided to bring the discussion to WikiProject New Jersey. I would value your input in the discussion, which you can find at here. Thanks, A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 14:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Help with FAC
Hiya Ze! Good to see you are still around. Since you were the other primary editor bringing 2006 New Jersey State Government shutdown up to GA status last year, I was hoping you would be willing to help again. I have nominated it for Featured Article, and I am sure that we can deal with any concerns that might arise. If you could keep an eye on the FAC page, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.  Jim Miller  See me 17:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed compromise aimed at consensus at WP:NJ
Hi, ZeWrestler. As you may remember, way back in August I started a thread at WikiProject New Jersey to discuss the "Federal, state, and county representation" subsections in New Jersey municipality articles, as User:Nightscream and I had a substantial disagreement on that subject. Approximately two months later, we've hammered out a compromise that we mostly agree upon, and presently I am seeing if there is a consensus for this compromise. I'm leaving this message here not as canvassing, but because you participated in this discussion previously and perhaps would be interested in weighing in on the compromise. The full discussion is here, and the proposed compromise is here. Thanks in advance for participating! A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 03:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

TUSC token d22d02f10dd0d6da70cec946b985d3a8
I am now proud owner of a TUSC account!

WikiProject New Jersey Newsletter (November 2009)

 * Newsletter delivery by xenobot  14:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Zeldadx 1.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Z2 link by sleeping zelda.png
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Replaceable fair use File:FFVI characters on airship.png
Thanks for uploading File:FFVI characters on airship.png. I noticed the description page specifies that the media is being used under a claim of fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this media is not replaceable, please:

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 * I see that another administrator, Fastily removed the tag you placed on the grounds that it is extremely unlikely that a free substitute exists. Therefore I assume this issue is now dead -- ZeWrestler  Talk 15:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

File:FFVI characters on airship.png listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:FFVI characters on airship.png, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Stifle (talk) 11:59, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Re:File:FFVI characters on airship.png
Hi ZeWrestler. I voted delete at the relevant FFD; Stifle does bring up a valid point, that an image of a free video game would suffice. Oddly enough, that didn't occur to me as I was cleaning out the backlogs so I elected to keep the file so, my mistake. Sorry,  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 05:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:MSU logo.png
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WikiProject New Jersey Newsletter (January 2010)

 * Newsletter delivery by xenobot  13:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Captaintitle.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Zelda adventure gamecover.jpg
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AfD nomination of Utopia (online game)
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Utopia (online game). We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Confederate_Dead_at_Devil's_Den_Gettysburg_V2.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Zelda adventure gamecover.jpg
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Featured picture candidates/Review of closure process 2
Because you've contributed to FPC either recently or in the past, I'm letting you know about the above poll on the basis of which we may develop proposals to change our procedures and criteria. Regards, Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 09:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

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Orphaned non-free image File:Voltron.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Z2 link by sleeping zelda.png
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== RFC on the inclusion of a table comparing SI units and Binary prefixes ==

Notice: An RFC is being conducted here at Talk:Hard diskdrive#RFC on the use of the IEC prefixes. The debate concerns this table which includes columns comparing SI and Binary prefixes to describe storage capacity. We welcome your input

You are receiving this message because you are a member of WikiProject Linux --RaptorHunter (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Image Data Source Question
On the image File:Phishing chart.png which you created, you cited the source of the data as the Anti-Phishing Working Group. Do you know which individual page had the original data or where I could find an updated version? -- Bk314159 (Talk to me and find out what I've done) 12:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I had used data from their phishing trends archive: http://www.antiphishing.org/phishReportsArchive.html -- ZeWrestler  Talk 15:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- Bk314159 (Talk to me and find out what I've done) 03:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:OldVGpeerreview
Template:OldVGpeerreview has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Bulwersator (talk) 08:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:Voltron.jpg
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Non-free rationale for File:Scryed Kazuma.jpg
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Non-free rationale for File:Wheres george.png
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 * done - ZeWrestler  Talk 13:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Tz 142.jpg listed for deletion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Tz 142.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:37, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:Giantscorpion cp 185155.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Norton Ghost 9 screenshot.jpg
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. -- Тимофей ЛееСуда . 20:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Spundekäs
Hi ZeWrestler, I would appreciate writing you an article about Spundekäs. nice photo.--Symposiarch (talk) 11:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:FFVI characters on airship.png
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Scryed Kazuma.jpg
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Image copyright problem with File:Image-Pog Collection.jpg
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Chrono media

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Mark WikiProject Linux as inactive?
Hi! I was directed to your talk page by the participants list on  WikiProject Linux. I've started a discussion whether we can keep it running, or mark it as inactive.–  Abuluntu  ( talk 06:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Old requests for CVG peer review

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:ZeWrestler


text:
User talk:Melody

Greetings! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. You can sign your name with ~. If you have questions or doubts of any sort, do not hesitate to post them on the Village Pump, somebody will respond ASAP. Other helpful pages include: Have fun! --Jiang 06:47, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Welcome, newcomers
 * Manual of style
 * Naming conventions

Thanks - I'm a manual junkie so links are good. Melody 08:56, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi Melody - if you want to, you can add a note of support for deletion of Chigorin below my proposal at Votes for deletion (it should be somewhere near the bottom of that page), but you don't have to - if nobody objects to the deletion, it will likely be deleted in any case. Welcome to the Wikipedia, by the way! --Camembert

Hi Melody, Welcome, and I look forward to seeing your contributions, I have philosophy as an interest as well! TonyClarke 11:36, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi Melody. Good to see another Queenslander join the ranks. Please add a little to Brisbane to let the rest of the world know where we are. Gaz 10:09, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Me again. Saw your Tim Quinn mod. Think how that will read in one or two years time. Find a date and be more specific, or better still start a short list of recent Lord Mayors. I'm not trying to criticise you. Just that this was an excellent opportunity to suggest that you have to think in perpetual encyclopedia mode. Gaz 15:46, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Brisbane meetup
Delivered on behalf of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Giggabot (talk) 14:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Brisbane meetup invitation
Hey there, you're invited to the second Brisbane Meetup. Please see the page at Meetup/Brisbane/2 for more details. Hope to see you there!

Automated message delivered by Giggabot (stop!) to Wikipedians in Queensland and known Brisbaneites, at 03:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC).

Brisbane meetup with Sue Gardner invitation
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup on 11 Febrary 2013 with Sue Gardner, Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation.

More details can be found at Meetup/Brisbane/7. I hope to see you there! John Vandenberg 02:43, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Melody


text:
Ex-gay movement

The ex-gay movement consists of people and organizations that encourage people to refrain from entering or pursuing same-sex relationships, to eliminate homosexual desires and to develop heterosexual desires, or to enter into a heterosexual relationship. Beginning with the founding of Love In Action and Exodus International in the mid-1970s, the movement saw rapid growth in the 1980s and 1990s before declining in the 2000s.

It relies on the involvement of individuals who formerly identified themselves as gay, lesbian, or bisexual but no longer do; these individuals may state either that they have eliminated their attraction to the same sex altogether or that they abstain from acting on such attraction.

After the collapse of Exodus International in 2013, a small number of ex-gay ministries continue as the Restored Hope Network. The movement's ongoing impact on conservative religious discourse can be seen in an aversion to use of the term gay to refer to sexual orientation and its substitute with the language of "same-sex attraction".

There have been various scandals related to this movement, including some self-claimed ex-gays having been found in same-sex relationships despite having denied this, as well as controversies over gay minors being forced to go to ex-gay camps against their will, and overt admissions by organizations related to the movement that conversion therapy does not work.

A large body of research and global scientific consensus indicates that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible with normal mental health and social adjustment. Because of this, major mental health professional organizations discourage and caution individuals against attempting to change their sexual orientation to heterosexual, and warn that attempting to do so can be harmful.

Characteristics
Various ex-gay organizations have working definitions of change. Prior to disbanding and renouncing the idea of a cure, Exodus International described change as, "attaining abstinence from homosexual behaviors, lessening of homosexual temptations, strengthening their sense of masculine or feminine identity, correcting distorted styles of relating with members of the same and opposite gender". People Can Change defines change as, "any degree of change toward greater peace, satisfaction and fulfillment, and less shame, depression and darkness", and emphasizes that for most people, heterosexuality is not the ultimate goal. When the term ex-gay was introduced to professional literature in 1980, E. Mansell Pattison defined it as describing a person who had "experienced a basic change in sexual orientation". Some ex-gays advocate entering (or remaining) in a heterosexual marriage as part of the process. Some in mixed-orientation marriages acknowledge that their sexual attractions remain primarily homosexual, but seek to make their marriages work anyway.

Some people no longer identify as gay since they became Christians or with prayer, without going to conversion therapy.

Objectives
Aside from achieving a degree of change in sexual orientation, the ex-gay movement pursues several broad goals and these include:

 * coordination with individuals and organizations, particularly opponents of gay and lesbian civil equality to influence public perception and public policy;
 * offering gays and lesbians a procedure that is claimed to solve many of their problems by making them heterosexual;
 * promotion of ex-gay movement leaders as legitimate representatives in gay cultural/political discourse;
 * the destigmatization of therapeutic attempts to change sexual orientation to undermine the American Psychological Association's long-standing position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

Motivation of participants
The American Psychological Association reported that some ex-gay groups may help counteract and buffer minority stress, marginalization, and isolation in ways similar to other support groups, such as offering social support, fellowship, role models, and new ways to view a problem through unique philosophies or ideologies. Additionally, the same researchers also found that people joined ex-gay groups due to: a lack of other sources of social support; a desire for active coping, including both cognitive and emotional coping; and access to methods of sexual orientation identity exploration and reconstruction. The same report found that some have described the ex-gay groups as, "a refuge for those who were excluded both from conservative churches and from their families, because of their same-sex sexual attractions, and from gay organizations and social networks, because of their conservative religious beliefs". According to the APA report, "Ex-gay groups appear to relieve the distress caused by conflicts between religious values and sexual orientation and help participants change their sexual orientation identity, but not their sexual orientation". The APA goes on to report that some believed that by, "taking on 'ex-gay' cultural norms and language and finding a community that enabled and reinforced their primary religious beliefs, values, and concerns", they could resolve identity conflicts by: One of the APA's sources for the report found that, "ex-gay groups recast homosexuality as an ordinary sin, and thus salvation was still achievable". Another one of their sources is summarized as having observed that, "such groups built hope, recovery, and relapse into an ex-gay identity, thus expecting same-sex sexual behaviors and conceiving them as opportunities for repentance and forgiveness". The APA report warns, however, that "some [ex-gay] groups may reinforce prejudice and stigma by providing inaccurate or stereotyped information about homosexuality".
 * Adopting a new discourse or worldview.
 * Engaging in a biographical reconstruction.
 * Embracing a new explanatory model.
 * Forming strong interpersonal ties.

Ex-gay organizations
The first contemporary ex-gay ministry, Love in Action, was formed in 1973. Three years later, with other ex-gay organizations, it formed Exodus International, the largest ex-gay organization and the largest organization under the Exodus Global Alliance. In May 1983, during a conference in the Netherlands, a European chapter was founded. In June 2013, the Exodus board decided to cease operations, with president Alan Chambers apologizing for the pain and hurt the group had caused and saying that he no longer believed sexual orientation could be changed. Chambers apologized for what he identified as regrettable techniques, and the narrow message of a cure and marriage rather than a relationship with Christ for all. Shortly after, Chambers and his wife started Speak.Love., an organisation for promoting conversations on sexual orientation for all. In September 2014, Speak.Love. was merged into Chambers' personal website. Exodus Global Alliance, however, no longer affiliated with Exodus International, has continued operations.

Other ex-gay organizations cater to specific religious groups, such as Courage International for Catholics, North Star for the LDS Church, JONAH for Jews, Joel 2:25 International for Catholic and Protestant Christians and OneByOne for Presbyterians.

Some groups follow a specific technique, such as Homosexuals Anonymous, modeled after the Alcoholics Anonymous twelve-step program. Other ex-gay organizations include Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays.

In the United States, the organization The Changed Movement hosts public "Freedom March" events where ex-gays discuss their changes.

People associated with the ex-gay movement

 * Joe Dallas is the program director of Genesis Counseling and the author of six books on human sexuality.
 * Donnie McClurkin wrote about his experience with homosexuality in his book, Eternal Victim, Eternal Victor. He describes himself as going through a process by which he became "saved and sanctified". McClurkin has been criticized for stating homosexuality is a curse. He speaks openly about sexual issues since becoming the biological father of a child with a woman to whom he was not married. He uses these experiences in his concerts and speaking engagements. In 2004, he sang at the Republican National Convention. The appearance generated criticism for the event organizers and McClurkin for his statements on homosexuality.
 * Joseph Nicolosi was an American clinical psychologist, founder and director of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, California, and a founder and former president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH).
 * Jeffrey Satinover is an American psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and physicist. He is a member of the Scientific Advisory Committee of NARTH.
 * Charles Socarides was an American psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, physician, educator, and author. He helped found NARTH in 1992.

People who no longer support the ex-gay movement

 * John Paulk, then leader of Focus on the Family's Love Won Out conference and chairman of the board for Exodus International North America, was spotted visiting a Washington, D.C. gay bar in September 2000. He was photographed outside of the bar from behind by Wayne Besen, and later stepped down from the two organizations. In 2013, he formally apologized for his involvement in promoting the ex-gay concept and for the harm his work had done.
 * Peterson Toscano, because he adhered to Conservative Christian beliefs, spent seventeen years as part of the ex-gay movement attempting to alter his sexual orientation through conversion therapy and faith-based ex-gay programs. In addition to receiving pastoral counseling, conversion therapy, and discipleship training, he attended several ex-gay programs, including Life Ministries in New York City (1983–1991) and the residential ex-gay program Love in Action in Memphis, Tennessee (July 1996-October 1998). In April 2007, Toscano and Christine Bakke co-founded Beyond Ex-Gay, an organization that supports people who feel they have been wounded by such organizations.
 * Anthony Venn-Brown is a former Australian evangelist in the Assemblies of God and an author whose book describes his experience in Australia's first ex-gay program. Venn-Brown co-founded Freedom2b which offers support to LGBT people from church backgrounds and who have been displaced from the ex-gay movement. In 2007 he co-ordinated the release of a statement from five Australian ex-gay leaders who publicly apologized for their past actions.
 * John Smid was the leader of Love In Action in Memphis. He resigned that position in 2008, and in 2010 apologized for any harm that he had caused, noting that his teen program "further wounded teens that were already in a very delicate place in life". He has announced that he is still homosexual and admitted never seeing a man successfully converting to heterosexuality in his group.
 * Warren Throckmorton is a past president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association. He wrote and produced the documentary I Do Exist about ex-gay people, but subsequently came to "believe that categorical change in sexual attractions, especially for men, is rare" and repudiated some of the claims he made in the film.

Sexual orientation change efforts
Prior to disbanding, Exodus International recommended to their members that they undertake sexual orientation change efforts, such as conversion therapy. Exodus warned against going to counselors who tell a patient that they "can definitely eliminate all attractions to your same gender, or that you can definitely acquire heteroerotic attractions". Evergreen International did not advocate any particular form of therapy, and warned that "therapy will likely not be a cure in the sense of erasing all homosexual feelings".

Sexual orientation change efforts are controversial and the American Psychological Association reported that, "the available evidence, from both early and recent studies, suggests that although sexual orientation is unlikely to change, some individuals modified their sexual orientation identity (i.e., individual or group membership and affiliation, self-labeling) and other aspects of sexuality (i.e. values and behavior)". Virtually all major mental health organizations have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public against treatments that purport to change sexual orientation.

In 2012, the Pan American Health Organization (the North and South American branch of the World Health Organization) released a statement cautioning against services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual orientations as they lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, and noted that the global scientific and professional consensus is that homosexuality is a normal and natural variation of human sexuality and cannot be regarded as a pathological condition. The Pan American Health Organization further called on governments, academic institutions, professional associations and the media to expose these practices and to promote respect for diversity. The World Health Organization affiliate further noted that gay minors have sometimes been forced to attend these "therapies" involuntarily, being deprived of their liberty and sometimes kept in isolation for several months, and that these findings were reported by several United Nations bodies. Additionally, the Pan American Health Organization recommended that such malpractices be denounced and subject to sanctions and penalties under national legislation, as they constitute a violation of the ethical principles of health care and violate human rights that are protected by international and regional agreements.

In March 2018, the European parliament voted by 435 to 109 members of parliament to stop conversion therapies in memberstates of the European Union.

Controversy over teenagers
A controversial aspect of the ex-gay movement has been the focus of some ex-gay organizations on gay teenagers, including occasions where teenagers have been forced to attend ex-gay camps by their parents. A 2006 report by the National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce outlined evidence that ex-gay and conversion therapy groups were at the time increasingly focusing on children. Several legal researchers have responded to these events by arguing that parents who force their children into aggressive conversion therapy programs are committing child abuse under various state statutes.

One case of emancipation involved Lyn Duff. Duff was admitted to Rivendell Psychiatric Center in West Jordan, Utah on December 19, 1991, at age 15, after being involuntarily transported there at her mother's behest. Duff was subjected to a regimen of conversion therapy, including aversion therapy, hypnosis, psychotropic drugs, solitary confinement, therapeutic messages linking lesbian sex with "the pits of hell", behavior modification techniques, unreasonable forms of punishment for small infractions, and "positive peer pressure" group sessions in which patients demeaned and belittled each other for both real and perceived inadequacies. On May 19, 1992, after 168 days of incarceration, Duff escaped from Rivendell and traveled to San Francisco, where she lived on the streets and in safe houses. In 1992, Duff initiated legal action against the facility and her mother.

The ex-gay organization Love in Action was involved in a controversy surrounding a teenager. In July 2005, The New York Times ran a feature story about 16-year-old Zachary Stark, whose parents forced him to attend an ex-gay camp run by the group. In July 2005, Stark was released from the camp. An investigation of the camp by the Tennessee Department of Children's Services did not uncover signs of child abuse. In September 2005, Tennessee authorities discovered that unlicensed staff had been administering prescription drugs. A settlement was reached shortly thereafter. LIA closed the camp in 2007.

title: Ex-gay movement