text:
Talk:Legal fiction

Proposed cleanup
I propose that this article has a major cleanup and that we expunge everything that isn't a legal fiction from it. The lede would need to be adjusted accordingly. Moglen has a good discussion of a fiction, in which he says: A legal fiction is a proposition about the substance or procedure of the legal system, purporting to be a principle or rule material to the determination of cases, which rests in whole or in part on factual premises known to be inaccurate at the time of the fiction's invocation. Each fiction, qua fiction, may be said to have a subject matter, comprised of the premise or premises counterfactually maintained. The key point is that a legal fiction is all about facts that are treated as true when they are known to be inaccurate. The classic example is the Bill of Middlesex - everyone knew the defendant hadn't committed trespass in Middlesex. Another well-known example is ejectment. Again everyone involved knew that John Doe and Richard Roe did not exist, but that point was never raised. Legal fictions were a procedural device, decreasingly used in my jurisdiction, to achieve a desired end.

What legal fictions are not:

 * Presumptions. Presumptions are things presumed to be true - in most cases the presumption can be rebutted (strictly speaking an irrebuttable presumption is just a doctrine of law - so our courts have held). Presumptions are not situations where something known to be false is treated as true. Usually the factual status is unknown.

 * Personality. Personality is a doctrine. Persons include natural person (humans in being) and legal persons (those given personality by the law). Corporations are one such example. Whatever you might think of corporate personhood or its uses, it isn't a fiction. No-one is assuming something known to be false. Corporations *are* persons. No-one is pretending they are really human when they aren't. That is a misunderstanding of what a corporation is or why they were created. Getting rid of the atrocious material about corporate personhood could only help this article.

We would be left with things like Quominus, ejectment and Middlesex all very good examples. I thought I'd ask the question here before going ahead and editing aggressively. Francis Davey (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

This needs to be done, but hasn't been done. There is no objection to this - it should just be done.202.36.75.85 (talk) 01:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I am 202.36.75.85 the above is my commentTimothy.conder (talk) 01:44, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Enemy character of the corporation
I've read this section several times and found it completely opaque. And surely quotations should illuminate the issue, not cloud it. Reading "I know not from what human beings that the character should be derived if resort is not had to the predominant character of its shareholders.", I'm reminded of:

 * Lawyer: “When he went, had you gone and had she, if she wanted to and were able, for the time being excluding all the restraints on her not to go, gone also, would he have brought you, meaning you and she, with him to the station?”
 * Other Lawyer: “Objection. That question should be taken out and shot.”

Other issues
I find the article confusing and the examples point at different things. Can anyone do something to fix that. I am sticking the confusing template.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 10:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

 * No. You are right to do so. The examples in the lead are either not legal fictions at all (a corporation isn't a legal fiction) or only confusingly so. The article suffers from being stuffed with all sorts of things which aren't fictions alongside things that are. It includes presumptions (statutory and otherwise) and also simply laws that might appear to have an odd effect. A fiction is something that the court assumes to be true whether or not it is, such as a lost modern grant or the situation in the action of ejectment or the bill of Middlesex and so on. However its not clear whether there's a deep belief by some editors that the definition of "legal fiction" is wider, so I daren't edit the article for fear of getting into an annoying and wasteful edit war. The law articles are like that. Francis Davey (talk) 07:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Agreed in all respects. I would add, however, that the article in its present form is both confusing and misleading.  I'm inclined to think it does more harm than good.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.119.68 (talk) 01:24, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

There's another issue: the section on development of the concept doesn't describe its development at all. Instead it gives some examples of legal fictions (and does so in a way that doesn't demonstrate the concept being developed through the implementation of these fictions). This section needs to be re-written in my opinion, or, at least have text added that discusses William Blackstone, Henry Maine, and any other important figures in the development of the concept. I am sure there are jurists well before Blackstone who contributed to the theory of a legal fiction. BornOn8thOfJuly (talk) 03:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Mabo v. Queensland
This seems out of place in that in the Mabo case, the High Court invalidated the doctrine of terra nullius. That's quite different from declaring it a legal fiction, because a legal fiction is something that is stipulated to be true even if it is not.

 * In the Mabo case, the Australian High Court declared the notion of terra nullius, the notion that lands uninhabited by European style national states were held by no one, was a "legal fiction;" though in that case it may not be certain that this general social, cultural, and military assumption that underlaid colonialism was devised by a court of law; moreover, calling it a "fiction" seems instead to be a retrojection of contemporary mores and values on the past.

That is in there because the text of the article on Terra Nullius says:

 * The concept of terra nullius became a major political and legal issue in Australia when, during a controversial Aboriginal rights case known as Mabo, the Australian High Court described it as a "legal fiction".

I found this when looking through the rest of the encyclopedia looking for articles that spoke of legal fictions. It struck me as a somewhat unorthodox use of the phrase myself, but then who am I to contradict the High Court of Australia on these things? I do not live in Australia, have easy access to Australian primary legal materials, or know the Mabo case, but if a high court calls something a legal fiction, I think it merits mention. I mean to restore the text. -- IHCOYC 16:11 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Richardcavell 23:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC) - Hi, guys. The Mabo v QLD decision ought not to be mentioned in the context of legal fictions. A fuller explanation of it is outside the scope of the article in question, and it's not quite right to say that 'terra nullius was a legal fiction', nor that terra nullius has been rejected, or overturned, etc. Surely Mabo v QLD should be removed from the article altogether?

--

The problem is that unless you define legal fiction, the statement is very misleading. Legal fiction has a very technical meaning, which is very different from the layman's term of the issue. A "legal fiction" may be valid or invalid, whereas the Court in Mabo declared that the doctrine was invalid.

And I *have* looked at the primary source materials of the case

User:Roadrunner

Here is the a link to Mabo v. Queensland (1989). The term legal fiction is not there. ]

There is also Mabo v. Queensland (1992) where the term is not there used in reference to terra nullius. I'll not object to you putting it back if you can find me a transcript of the decision where the high court uses that term.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/166clr186.html

 * In the Mabo case, the Australian High Court declared the notion of terra nullius, the notion that lands uninhabited by European style national states were held by no one, was a "legal fiction;" though in that case it may not be certain that this general social, cultural, and military assumption that underlaid colonialism was devised by a court of law; moreover, calling it a "fiction" seems instead to be a retrojection of contemporary mores and values on the past.

Here is a link to Mabo v. Queensland (No. 2) (1992)

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/175clr1.html

I challenge you to find any Australian High Court decision where the AHC calls terra nullius a legal fiction. You can start here.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/

-- Roadrunner

 * The second linked case contains the text:

 * The fiction by which the rights and interests of indigenous inhabitants in land were treated as non-existent was justified by a policy which has no place in the contemporary law of this country.

 * and furthermore calles the whole basis of the common law of real property tenures, that the King owned all the land and all titles had their source in the King's absolute ownership, was a legal fiction; this too is a somewhat unorthodox use of the phrase. Then again, as Will Rogers said, supreme courts aren't supreme because they're always right; they're always right because they're supreme.  It does not seem unreasonable for the author of the article on terra nullius to have concluded that the Australian high court called that doctrine a legal fiction.  -- IHCOYC 16:39 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * My problem with the original paragraph was that the author seemed to have confused the term "legal fiction" and

the common definition of fiction. Let me try to put in an alternate text.

Roadrunner

 * This law review article also speaks of "terra nullius" and its "legal fiction" status as something fairly well established in Australian law:

 * http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/journals/UNSWLJ/1997/9.html?query=%22terra%22+and+%22nulliu%22+and+%22legal%22+and+%22fiction%22

 * --IHCOYC 16:53 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

$1 and Consideration
Is the idea that selling (for example) real estate for $1.00 makes it a sale rather than a gift a legal fiction? --User:Juuitchan

 * In a way, but not really. I gather your question is about the wording in deeds that usually says  that the land was sold for a dollar.  The standard wording I usually see says "$1.00 and other good and sufficient considerations, receipt of which is hereby acknowledged."  It actually says that more than $1.00 was received, so it isn't technically untrue; there's no reason to make the actual price part of the public records.

 * This recital doesn't actually preclude someone from claiming that the deed was in fact a gift or a sham. This can and has been done (say, when a person who owes money deeds his land for nothing to relatives) so it isn't just accepted as true by the legal system.

 * Finally, a person is perfectly free to sell real estate for $1.00, and if that's the deal she made, she will be held to it, at least after the fact. The old common law of consideration treated sales differently from gifts, but in fact did not attempt to inquire as to the fairness of bargains.  So a sale of valuable land for $1.00 was valid on its face.  Smerdis of Tlön 03:32, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When I practised as an English solicitor, I think a consideration of 5 shillings or £1, was described a 'nominal consideration' (and was probably often not paid). I do not think this is correctly described as a legal fiction. Peterkingiron 15:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

See also Peppercorn (legal). -- 82.36.30.34 00:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that nominal consideration is not, per se, a legal fiction. But in many cases it is a legal fiction because the consideration is not paid, but is assumed. This could be a unique case though because there is also a principle that a fact stated in a contract is presumed true for the purpose of the contract. 202.36.75.85 (talk) 01:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC) I am 202.36.75.85 the above is my commentTimothy.conder (talk) 01:44, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I don't believe it is a fiction in my jurisdiction, but it may be in yours. It is something that should only really be mentioned in the article if we can find a good (and I mean good) citation for it. There's no need for fictionalisation in English law because we enforce executory contracts. The consideration need not have been paid, it need merely be due. That's one of the reasons we don't (as a rule) draft in a statement that consideration hasn't been paid. If those statements have any effect (do they?) then they may be the fiction not the consideration itself. Francis Davey (talk) 09:36, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Opaque examples
The first two examples in this paragraph are undecipherable to me. Could it be made clearer to the layman? What is the pantomime they refer to? What is the guardianship issue? These cases are not explained or linked to here. ''Legal fictions are fewer in number than they used to be. The elaborate pantomime about poor Doe left homeless by Roe has been abolished by statute or by reforms in civil procedure in every common law jurisdiction. The business about Doe and Roe being the guardians of undisclosed parties who wish to bring suit, or the names of parties unknown, remains in some jurisdictions (although not in England).'' --Locarno 15:44, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Poor, misleading definition!
"legal fictions are suppositions of fact taken to be true by the courts of law, but which are not necessarily true."

This is a misleading definition of a legal fiction - it confuses legal fiction with implied, imputed or presumed facts.

For example:

In UK law, if someone is not heard from for seven years, a court may presume that they are dead. This is NOT a legal fiction, but a presumed fact - it is "not necessarily true" but is treated as being true unless the contrary is proven.

A legal fiction is not something that is taken to be true until proven otherwise. It is immune to proof (eg in the Exchequer example, a defendant could not adduce evidence that the plaintiff did not, in fact, owe any money to the King). The actual truth of a legal fiction is utterly irrelevant and often fanciful.

Presumed/implied/imputed facts are commonsense assumptions that expediate matters of EVIDENCE.

Legal fictions are methods of altering matters of LAW or PROCEDURE.

Someone (a registered user) needs to re-write this definition!

 * I completely agree. The article confuses legal presumptions and legal fictions and treats them as if they are the same. Would anyone object to me re-writing the article? Francis Davey 16:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be a very good idea if you did. I would suggest splitting presumptions and fictions into different articles (with cross-references).  However I think there are other mistakes.  For example an assize of novel disseisin was (I think) a 'real action', which became unpopular due to its technicalities.  In contrast, an ejectment was a 'personal action' used to resolve a genuine dispute, but conducted in the name of a fictious tenant (often - but not always - John Doe).  On the other hand again, there were fictitious disputes - Fines and Recoveries (abolished 1833) - where the parties purported to be having a dispute with the sole object of acheiving a genuine change in a land title - either releasing a wife's right to dower in his husband's property or barring an entail.  I might have done this myself, but I meet them in practice in the course of local history research, rather than knowing about them from citable reference works.  I may add that some of what I have read about ejectments (as apparently being taught to history and archives students) does not accord with my experience of what documents exist in archives.  Peterkingiron 15:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 'novel disseisin' is best classified as one of the possessory assizes. The real actions were things like the writ of right which determined title in a final manner, novel disseisin, mort d'ancestor and so on were more relative and procedurally much easier than the real actions. In turn the possessory assizes were overtaken by writs of entry. The action of ejectment (of the Doe d. kind) was originally used as a way of protecting leaseholds (which were, anciently, not an estate in land at all), but were then borrowed for real property (sorry I can't help using the term) because of their convenience. Can you exemplify some of the conflicts or confusions about ejectment? Francis Davey 17:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

 * the section on ejectment suggests that the legal fiction (John Doe, Richard Roe and the leases) was to work around the wager of battle, but then at the end states that the legal fiction could be challenged by a wager of battle - isn't there a conflict here? Wasn't this legal fiction just to apply the leaseholds law to real property (as mentioned in the paragraph above?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.73.217 (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Doctrine of Survival
Is this real? It doesn't cite a source and I can find nothing mentioning it online or in other sources. I suggest that it be deleted unless someone can confirm it. Holomorphic 01:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Its certainly the case in England and Wales where there is a statutory presumption of survivorship under section 184 of the Law of Property Act 1925. This is why survivorship clauses are routinely inserted into wills. Of course it is not (like many of the examples in the article) a legal fiction, but that is another difficulty. Francis Davey 09:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * It's certainly real legal doctrine, but I don't see how it's legal fiction. It's a rebutable presumption, like presumption of innocence for criminal defendants.  — Randall Bart (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it is a legal fiction as it is a presumption that something is fact absent evidence of such. Just cuz it may be true doesn't mean its not fiction.  The fiction is the determined order of death when such cannot be determined.  And i rephrased the "of course" statement, as I didn't think it was proper.  It doesn't seem obvious in context to the sentence preceding it, but rather unmentioned.  And in any case this should probably be removed entirely as  irrelevant, no?  The doctrine concerns the suppostion when death cannot be determined.  It would be obvious that this is inaplicable in the face of evidence as to the actual order of death, as the later obviates the need for the former.  Perhaps someone agrees and will remove?--24.29.234.88 (talk) 07:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * But that is not what is meant by the phrase "legal fiction". A presumption and a fiction are different things. A presumption allows the short-cutting of an evidential inquiry that might be difficult or impossible to carry out. A fiction is something that is known not to be true, but nevertheless continued with. For example: the action of ejectment proceeded on the fiction that John Doe and Richard Roe existed. This is not a presumption that they did because we know they did not. So, you are right that it is irrelevant. Francis Davey (talk) 10:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Minor Change Needed
The word trust in this article links to the disambiguation page for 'trust'. Please change the link to the reference most appropriate in this context. Longhairandabeard 06:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Tone of the article
I think this article is far too legalistic in its language. I appreciate that it is a technical topic, but the lay-person (myself as an example) will have tremendous trouble understanding most of the examples listed. Pud1m 09:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Roman Law
Legal fictions were at least as prevalent in the Roman Law as in the Common Law, yet this article fails to mention them in that context. I know,, but I figured I would mention it here. The article can stand reworking on a number of counts. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Death (precession)
A P Herber in Uncommon Law has a nice misleading case where a chap dies at sea. The difficulty arises because he was older than his twin, in his time zone, but younger in his homeland. A legal fiction is invoked that states that both were born at midnight, and then deliberately confused calculations to determine which died first. Is this worth somehow incorporating? SimonTrew (talk) 02:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I've read Uncommon Law more than once and don't remember any such thing; nor can I see how the scenario makes any sense. (Were the twins born in different time-zones?)  The objective fact of which was born first (or of which died first) is independent of time-zones.  —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I think that User:SimonTrew may be mis-remembering "The Missing Day Case" from More Uncommon Law. No twins were involved.

 * "The deceased testator, the revered Lord Munsey, left all his property to his great-nephew George Stewer if he has attained the age of 21 before the date of my death: and, if not, to his own brother the Hon. Thomas Cobley ... George Stewer celebrated his twenty-first birthday in London on Monday, May 2, 1949 ... The Earl was then on passage from Honolulu to Sydney in the S.S. Asthma. But a few days later there came a cable from the captain of the vessel: DEEPLY REGRET REPORT LORD MUNSEY PASSED AWAY TUESDAY MAY 3 BURIED AT SEA IN 10S 176E LETTER FOLLOWS"

 * After various investigations of time zones, summer time, the International Date Line, the exact time of the testator's death and nephew's birth, the court decided that "George Stewer succeeds under the will by the small but sufficient margin of about six seconds." It's in Herbert's notes on the case that he considers the "old common law doctrine concerning Fractions of a Day" and various confusions which can result from deeming certain events to have occurred at midnight on the day before they really did. But anyway, whether this doctrine would amount to a legal fiction or not, it would clearly be inappropriate to mention the case, since (a) the case itself doesn't involve any such doctrine, only the notes; and (b) it's a work of fiction. Gdr 20:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Racehorces
All racehorses are born on January 1. (I think this is worldwide as all are registered at Tattersall's in Newmarket). This can give an advantage to those born earlier in the year, in races where age is limited. Is this a legal fiction? I would kinda say it is, and if so it would be nice to add it. SimonTrew (talk) 02:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Elected members
In the UK elected members of councils, assemblies and Parliament are legally self-employed post-holders, but a legal fiction is maintained that they are employees of the bodies they are members of for purposes such as payroll, taxes and benefits, but fully excluded from any considerations such as employee protection, workplace health & safety, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.250.60 (talk) 11:30, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

fact or situation

 * A legal fiction is a fact or situation assumed or created by courts which is then used in order to benefit from a legal rule ....

I deleted "or situation" in the belief that a situation is a fact, and changed "benefit from" to "apply" because the courts are supposed to be disinterested and thus ought not to "benefit" (derive an advantage) from such manipulations. ('Apply' is also a bit more specific.) CliffC reverted, saying, both terms seem needed - a 'fact' is not a 'situation'; 'benefit' has a straightforward English meaning.

I agree that a fact is not a situation, which is why I didn't delete the word "fact"; I'd welcome an example of a situation that is not a fact. I also agree that 'benefit' has a straightforward English meaning, and I hope I have now made clear why I think a word with that straightforward English meaning is inappropriate here. —Tamfang (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm with you on this. Francis Davey (talk) 13:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

"Person"
In my perception, a corporation as a "legal person" is not a fiction, but a different trick often applied in law: a person is a legal concept that is defined (slightly) differently for legal purposes. Well, actually it is an approach also found in other disciplines: technical terms often have a specific meaning slightly different from their plain meaning in common parlance.

The perfect example of a legal fiction IMHO is the rule that in case of annulment of a contract it (sometimes) is supposed never to have existed. This is a deviation from reality - but it is convenient to explain the consequences. Rbakels (talk) 04:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * The word person comes from a Latin word for an actor's mask, whence by metonymy and metaphor the role that one plays (the function that one exercises) in the world – rather than one's human essence. I would guess that application of the word to "artificial persons" (corporations of various kinds) is quite old, and not originally seen as a fiction.  —Tamfang (talk) 05:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Its not a fiction. But many of the things in this article are not fictions. A fiction involves a pretence that reality is other than it is. Corporations are persons, there's no pretence there. Francis Davey (talk) 13:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Person comes from Per- = thoroughly + -son = sun... "thoroughly a sun"... in the sense: "unreachable". Meaning to denote differences in human identity, how were different entities, as such... A legal person on paper is pure fiction... whether this be a corporation or individual... a drawing of a stickman doesn't truly represent Donald Trump as he stands outside the picture. A corporation is the same just as bad... "contempt of court"... basically, there is a judge "individual"... and a court "a building"... the judge merely accuses anyone who dissagrees with there judgement as disliking a building as opposed to the judges judgement... This is sort of a double-strawman to the extent that not only does the judge straw-man the accused but claims to the accused that he is represented by a building (wood, bricks, cement etc). Also, you go to jail for this accusation of dissagreeing with a building. This type of retardation of society I surely hope dies once the public are fully aware of it. It's just the next con pulled just like hypnosis, ghosts and magicians etc. It's a shame people have to ruin lives for money.
 * Ok but "contempt of court" is not disagreeing with a judgement, rather it is not doing what the judgement says. You can disagree with the judgement and the judge can't do anything about. In fact, you can appeal the judgement and you can publish an article about how bad the judge is and the judge can't do anything about it. But once the judgement becomes final, you have to do what it says if it orders you to do something. A judgement for debt can't be enforced by contempt, nor can a judge hold you in contempt unless the order told you to do something or to refrain from doing something and you didn't do that thing or refrained from doing it. Contempt is actually not a judge-made law, it is chancery-made rule of equity and it's how the chancery enforced its judgements before the law and equity systems were fused. Law + Equity = Justice. So if find yourself charged with contempt, it's not for disagreeing with a building, it's for disrespecting the building (to use your word) and what it stands for: justice. 104.234.245.129 (talk) 03:28, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Reasonable man
In § Development of the concept (an odd section title), the second paragraph gives the 'reasonable man' as an example of a legal fiction. The third says that "[legal fictions] are different from hypothetical examples, such as the 'reasonable person' which serve as tools for the court to express its reasoning". That's inconsistent at first glance, and could do with clarification. Are these two different applications of the 'reasonable man/person', one of which is a legal fiction and the other of which isn't? › Mortee  talk 12:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Contradiction in Article
Under "Development of the Concept," the article states that corporate personality is not a legal fiction. Yet this article has a section on Corporate Personality, which then goes on to state that the corporation-as-person is a legal fiction. This needs to be remedied.

I am going to remove the section on corporate personality. If this proves too radical then by all means revert the edit. I don't have strong convictions about this being or not being a legal fiction, and am doing this based off of the consensus I see in the Talk Section. I do however, have strong convictions that we remedy this somehow. BornOn8thOfJuly (talk) 12:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

overly-narrow definition
The definition of "legal fiction", as currently provided in this article seems to be fairly British-specific:"a fact assumed or created by courts" whereas "legal fiction" is a more general concept than this. It is a disservice to the Wikipedia community to pretend this term is so limited.

Some other commenters have attempted to provide a fairly formal definition, but I'll take my hand at a less formal approach:"A 'legal fiction' is a statement which is accepted as true for purposes of legal analysis, even if it may not actually be true."

I'll offer an example that may not seem so obvious: In order to qualify to vote in an election, you must be at least age 18 as of the date of the election. (We'll treat it as though an election is actually held on a specific date, rather than over the course of several days (but that wasn't the legal fiction I intended to introduce). The legal fiction is that you achieve a particular age on your birthday. But years do not quite correspond to the calendar.  Your actual age is the number of completed revolutions around the sun that Earth has made since you were born.  Thus, your age would actually occur at a specific time of day, which changes roughly 6 hours with each year, and we adjust for this variation with leap years, so you could presumably be up to 24 hours off on your actual age. What's the difference?  Not much, until you get to law... and there are plenty of cases that are far more impactful than whether or not somebody gets to vote in a particular election.

My point is not to identify that some legal fictions might seem somewhat obscure, but that there isn't a pre-defined set of legal fictions that a court may recognize. Legal fictions are more general and may apply to any situation which is the subject of legal analysis.

There is perhaps some challenge to finding a source with a suitable definition. The meaning could perhaps be implied simply by the juxtaposition of the words. Whether we can find an appropriate source or not, the existing article is unreasonably limited, and I would contend that in its current form, it is a disservice to the Wikipedia community.

While there are plenty of essays on the subject of legal fictions, those which acknowledge some broader view seem to be quite limited. One exception is “The Truth And Nothing But The Truth?”: The Argumentative Use Of Fictions In Legal Reasoning, which allows for the case of a legislator creating a legal fiction. Fabrickator (talk) 01:20, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 November 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Closed per WP:RMEC. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 05:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Legal fiction → Legal fiction (law) – Not the obvious WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It is also a potential WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT for Legal drama and Legal thriller, the former of which gets equivalent pageviews to the law term. It requires the creation of a DAB page. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose It's a well known concept in law and a cursory search on the browser doesn't return results with courtroom dramas and the like so I'm skeptical people are mistakenly ending here while looking for fictionalized stories about law. Killuminator (talk) 18:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Killuminator. I think the existing hatnote is sufficient here; clickstream data does not show readers leaving this article to go to legal drama or legal thriller, which suggests that any confusion from the current setup is minimal. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. People rarely refer to Perry Mason et. al. as "legal fictions" aside from, hypothetically, maybe a sentence that is distinguishing a television show from a legal case in reality.  It's "legal drama" for the TV show case.  Google search shows "legal fiction" comes up sometimes for books, like John Grisham stuff, but not clear it's a majority usage nor is it clear it's the term for the genre rather than just words in a sentence.  Hatnote seems fine for the rare reader who ends up here incorrectly.  SnowFire (talk) 23:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. It's an obvious primary topic.  O.N.R.  (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Legal fiction


text:
Honus Wagner

Johannes Peter "Honus" Wagner (February 24, 1874 – December 6, 1955 ), was an American baseball shortstop who played 21 seasons in Major League Baseball from 1897 to 1917, almost entirely for the Pittsburgh Pirates. Wagner won his eighth (and final) batting title in 1911, a National League record that remains unbroken to this day, and matched only once, in 1997, by Tony Gwynn. He also led the league in slugging six times and stolen bases five times. Wagner was nicknamed "the Flying Dutchman" due to his superb speed and German heritage. This nickname was a nod to the popular folk-tale made into a famous opera by the German composer Richard Wagner. In 1936, the Baseball Hall of Fame inducted Wagner as one of the first five members. He received the second-highest vote total, behind Ty Cobb's 222 and tied with Babe Ruth at 215.

Most baseball historians consider Wagner to be the greatest shortstop ever and one of the greatest players ever. Ty Cobb himself called Wagner "maybe the greatest star ever to take the diamond". Honus Wagner is also the featured player of one of the rarest and the most valuable baseball cards in existence.

Early life
Wagner was born to German immigrants Peter and Katheryn Wagner in the borough of Chartiers, in what is now Carnegie, Pennsylvania.

Wagner was one of nine children. As a child, he was called Hans by his mother, which later evolved into Honus. "Hans" was also an alternate nickname during his major league career. Wagner dropped out of school at age 12 to help his father and brothers in the coal mines. In their free time, he and his brothers played sandlot baseball and developed their skills to such an extent that three of his brothers went on to become professionals as well.

Wagner's older brother, Albert "Butts" Wagner, who had a brief major league career himself, is often credited with getting Honus his first tryout. Butts persuaded his manager to take a look at his younger brother. Following his brother, Wagner trained to be a barber before becoming successful in baseball.

In 1916, Wagner married Bessie Baine Smith, and the couple had three daughters: Elva Katrina (b. 1918, stillborn), Betty Baine (1919–1992), and Virginia Mae (1922–1985).

Early career

Honus' brother Albert "Butts" Wagner was considered the ballplayer of the family. Albert suggested Honus in 1895 when his Inter-State League team was in need of help. Wagner played for five teams in that first year, in three different leagues over the course of 80 games.

In 1896, Ed Barrow played with Wagner with the Wheeling Nailers, and decided to take him with him to his next team, the Paterson Silk Sox (Atlantic League). Barrow proved to be a good talent scout, as Wagner could play wherever he was needed, including all three bases and the outfield. Wagner hit .313 for Paterson in 1896 and .375 in 74 games in 1897.

Louisville Colonels

Recognizing that Wagner should be playing at the highest level, Barrow contacted the Louisville Colonels, who had finished last in the National League in 1896 with a record of 38–93. They were doing better in 1897 when Barrow persuaded club president Barney Dreyfuss, club secretary Harry Pulliam, and outfielder-manager Fred Clarke to go to Paterson to see Wagner play. Dreyfuss and Clarke were not impressed with the awkward-looking man, not surprising, as Wagner was oddly built: he was 5ft 11in tall, weighed 200 lb, and had a barrel chest, massive shoulders, heavily muscled arms, huge hands, and incredibly bowed legs that deprived him of any grace and several inches of height. Pulliam, though, persuaded Dreyfuss and Clarke to take a chance on him. Wagner debuted with Louisville on July 19 and hit .338 in 61 games.

By his second season, Wagner was already one of the best hitters in the National League although he came up short a percentage point from finishing the season at .300. Following the 1899 season, the NL contracted from twelve to eight teams, with the Colonels one of four teams eliminated. Owner Barney Dreyfuss, who had purchased half ownership in the Pirates, took Wagner and many of his other top players with him to the Pittsburgh team.

Tommy Leach recounted his impressions of joining the Louisville club in 1898 with hopes of winning the starting job at third base:

"I hardly had time to get settled before it hits me that this guy the Louisville club had at third base was practically doing the impossible. I'm sitting on the bench the first day I reported, and along about the third inning an opposing batter smacks a line drive down the third-base line that looked like at least a sure double. Well, this big Louisville third baseman jumped over after it like he was on steel springs, slapped it down with his bare hand, scrambled after it at least ten feet, and fired a bullet over to first base. The runner was out by two or three steps.

I'm sitting on the bench and my eyes are popping out. So I poked the guy sitting next to me, and asked him who the devil that big fellow was on third base.

'Why, that's Wagner,' he says. 'He's the best third baseman in the league.'

And it also turned out that while Honus was the best third baseman in the league, he was also the best first baseman, the best second baseman, the best shortstop, and the best outfielder. That was in fielding. And since he led the league in batting eight times between 1900 and 1911, you know that he was the best hitter, too. As well as the best base runner."

Pittsburgh Pirates
The move to the Pittsburgh Pirates signified Wagner's emergence as a premier hitter. In 1900, Wagner won his first batting championship with a .381 mark and also led the league in doubles (45), triples (22), and slugging percentage (.573), all of which were career highs. For the next nine seasons, Wagner's average did not fall below .330.

In 1901, the American League began to sign National League players, creating a bidding war, which depleted the league of many talented players. Wagner was offered a $20,000 contract by the Chicago White Sox, but turned it down and continued to play with the Pirates.

Prior to 1904, Wagner had played several positions but settled into the shortstop role full-time that season, where he became a skilled fielder. His biography on BaseballBiography.com describes his gritty style:

"Bowlegged, barrel-chested, long-limbed ... he was often likened to an octopus. When he fielded grounders, his huge hands also collected large scoops of infield dirt, which accompanied his throws to first like the tail of a comet."

In 1898, Wagner won a distance contest in Louisville by throwing a baseball more than 403 ft. In August 1899, he became the first player credited with stealing second base, third, and home in succession under the new rule differentiating between advanced bases and stolen bases. He repeated the feat in 1902, 1907, and 1909. Wagner retired with the National League record for most steals of home (27), which was broken by Greasy Neale in 1922.

In September 1905, Wagner signed a contract to produce the first bat with a player's signature, the Louisville Slugger, becoming the first sportsperson to endorse a commercial product; the Honus Wagner was to become a best-seller for years. One month later, with one point separating him from Reds center fielder Cy Seymour for the batting title, Wagner fell short in a head-to-head matchup on the final day of the season, with Seymour collecting four hits to Wagner's two, as contemporary press reports stated that the fans were far more interested in the Seymour-Wagner battle than in the outcome of the games.

Shortly before the 1908 season, Wagner retired. In desperation, owner Barney Dreyfuss offered him $10,000 per year, making him the highest-paid Pirate for many years. He returned to the Pirates early in the 1908 season, and finished two home runs short of the league's Triple Crown, leading the league in hitting (for the sixth time)‚ hits‚ total bases‚ doubles‚ triples‚ RBI‚ and stolen bases. Wagner took over the batting lead from the New York Giants' flamboyant outfielder Mike Donlin during a July 25 game against the Giants and their star pitcher Christy Mathewson. Wagner was 5-for-5 in the game; after each hit, he reportedly held up another finger to Donlin, who went hitless, and who had just beaten runner-up Wagner by a wide margin in a "most popular player" poll.

Bill James cites Wagner's 1908 season as the greatest single season for any player in baseball history. He notes that the league ERA of 2.35 was the lowest of the dead-ball era and about half of the ERAs of modern baseball. Since Wagner hit .354 with 109 RBI in an environment when half as many runs were scored as today, he asks, "if you had a Gold Glove shortstop, like Wagner, who drove in 218 runs, what would he be worth?"

He was the first winner of The World's Championship Batsman's Cup, in 1908, made by Welshman George "Honey Boy" Evans.

1903 and 1909 World Series

In 1903, the Pirates played the Boston Americans in Major League Baseball's inaugural World Series. Wagner, by this point, was an established star and much was expected of him, especially since the Pirates' starting rotation was badly depleted by injury. Wagner himself was not at full strength and hit only .222 for the series. The Americans, meanwhile, had some fans, called the "Royal Rooters" who, whenever Wagner came to bat, sang "Honus, Honus, why do you hit so badly?" to the tune of "Tessie", a popular song of the day. The Rooters, led by Boston bartender Michael "Nuf Ced" McGreevy, even traveled to Pittsburgh to continue their heckling. Pittsburgh lost in the best-of-nine series, five games to three, to a team led by pitchers Cy Young and Bill Dinneen and third baseman–manager Jimmy Collins. Christy Mathewson, in his book "Pitching in a Pinch" wrote: "For some time after "Hans" Wagner's poor showing in the world's series of 1903 ... it was reported that he was "yellow" (poor in the clutch). This grieved the Dutchman deeply, for I don't know a ballplayer in either league who would assay less quit to the ton than Wagner ... This was the real tragedy in Wagner's career. Notwithstanding his stolid appearance, he is a sensitive player, and this has hurt him more than anything else in his life ever has."

Wagner was distraught by his performance. The following spring, he refused to send his portrait to a "Hall of Fame" for batting champions, citing his play in the World Series. "I was too bum last year", he wrote. "I was a joke in that Boston-Pittsburgh Series. What does it profit a man to hammer along and make a few hits when they are not needed only to fall down when it comes to a pinch? I would be ashamed to have my picture up now."

Wagner and the Pirates were given a chance to prove that they were not "yellow" in 1909. The Pirates faced Ty Cobb's Detroit Tigers. The series was the only meeting of the two superior batsmen of the day, and the first time that the batting champions of each league faced one another (this later occurred thrice more, in 1931, 1954, and 2012 World Series). Wagner was by this time 35 years old, Cobb just 22.

This time, Wagner could not be stifled as he outhit Cobb, .333 to .231, and stole six bases, establishing the new Series record. The speed demon Cobb only managed two steals, one of which Cobb himself admitted was a botched call. Wagner recounted: "We had him out at second. We put up a squawk, but Silk O'Loughlin, the umpire, overruled it. We kept the squawk going for a minute or so, making no headway of course, and then Cobb spoke up. He turned to O'Loughlin, an American League umpire, by the way, and said, 'Of course I was out. They had me by a foot. You just booted the play, so come on, let's play ball.'"

There was also a story that was widely circulated over the years and famously recounted in Lawrence Ritter's The Glory of Their Times, that at one point Cobb was on first; he bragged to Wagner that he was going to steal second and threatened to assault him physically doing it; Wagner defiantly dared him to try it and placed an especially rough tag to Cobb's mouth; and the two exchanged choice words. Cobb denied it in his autobiography, and the play-by-play of the 1909 World Series confirms that the event could not have happened as stated: Cobb was never tagged out by Wagner in a caught-stealing. The Pirates won the series in seven games behind the pitching of rookie Babe Adams.

Later career
In 1910, Wagner's average fell to .320, his lowest average since 1898. Nevertheless, he aged exceptionally well; the three highest OPS+ seasons by any shortstop aged 35 or older belong to Wagner, and even his age-41 season ranks eighth on the list.

Wagner won the 1911 batting title by the narrowest of margins. He went hitless in a 1–0 win against the Cubs on May 30, but a successful league protest by the Cubs wiped out the result (and Wagner's at-bats). Wagner ended up edging the Boston Rustlers' Doc Miller, .334 to .333. The Pirates were in contention into August, but an ankle injury sidelined Wagner for 25 games and the team slid from the race.

On June 9, 1914, at age 40, Wagner recorded his 3,000th hit, a double off Philadelphia's Erskine Mayer, the second player in baseball history to reach the figure, after Cap Anson, and Nap Lajoie joined them three months later. This accomplishment, however, came during a down period for Wagner and Pirates. Wagner hit only .252 in 1914, the lowest average of his career. In July 1915, he became the oldest player to hit a grand slam, a record which stood for 70 years until topped by 43-year-old Tony Pérez. In 1916, Wagner became the oldest player to hit an inside-the-park home run.

In 1917, following another retirement, Wagner returned for his final, abbreviated season. Returning in June, he was spiked in July and played only sparingly for the remainder of the year, batting .265. He briefly held the role of interim manager, but after going 1–4, Wagner told owner Dreyfuss the job was not for him. He retired as the NL's all-time hit leader, with 3,430. (Subsequent research has since revised this total to 3,418.) It took 45 years for St. Louis' Stan Musial to surpass Wagner's hit total.

Wagner has been considered one of the very best all-around players to ever play baseball since the day he retired in 1917. Baseball historian and statistician Bill James named Honus Wagner as the second-best player of all time after Babe Ruth, rating him as the best major league player in 1900 and each year from 1902 to 1908. Statisticians John Thorn and Pete Palmer rate Wagner as ninth all-time in their "Total Player Ranking". Many of the greats who played or managed against Wagner, including Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and Walter Johnson, list him at shortstop on their All-Time teams.

Life after baseball

Wagner was not finished playing baseball after his retirement from major league baseball. He managed and played for a semi-pro team. After retirement, Wagner served the Pirates as a coach for 39 years, most notably as a hitting instructor from 1933 to 1952. Arky Vaughan, Ralph Kiner, Pie Traynor (player-manager from 1934–1939), and Hank Greenberg (although Greenberg was in his final major league season in 1947, his only season with the Pirates, and very well established) all future Hall of Famers, were notable "pupils" of Wagner. During this time, he wore uniform number 14 but later changed it to his more famous 33, which was later the number retired for him. (His entire playing career was in the days before uniform numbers were worn.) His appearances at National League stadiums during his coaching years were always well received and Wagner remained a beloved ambassador of baseball. Wagner also coached baseball and basketball at Carnegie Institute of Technology, which is now part of Carnegie Mellon University.

In 1928, Wagner ran for the office of Sheriff of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, but lost. He was appointed as a deputy of the Allegheny County Sheriff's Office in 1942. He also ran a well-known sporting goods company. A sporting goods store bearing the name "Honus Wagner" operated in downtown Pittsburgh for 93 years before closing permanently in 2011.

The Pirates hosted the 1944 Major League Baseball All-Star Game at Forbes Field. Wagner was invited to be an honorary coach for the National League squad, the first time this honor was bestowed in Major League Baseball's All-Star Game.

Wagner lived the remainder of his life in Pittsburgh, where he was well known as a friendly figure around town. He died on December 6, 1955, at the age of 81, and he is buried at Jefferson Memorial Cemetery in the South Hills area of Pittsburgh.

Film legacy
Wagner, along with his famous baseball card, was one of the earliest athletes to make the crossover into pop culture film. He starred as a sports hero in 1919's Spring Fever with Moe Howard and Shemp Howard of the Three Stooges, and has been depicted as the subject of The Winning Season (2004) and in a brief scene in Cobb (1994).

Baseball legacy

When the Baseball Hall of Fame held its first election in 1936, Wagner tied for second in the voting with Babe Ruth, trailing Cobb. A 1942 Sporting News poll of 100 former players and managers confirmed this opinion, with Wagner finishing 43 votes behind Cobb and six ahead of Ruth. In 1969, on the 100th anniversary of professional baseball, a vote was taken to honor the greatest players ever, and Wagner was selected as the all-time shortstop. In 1999, 82 years after his last game and 44 years since his death, Wagner was voted Number 13 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Players, where he was again the highest-ranking shortstop. That same year, he was selected to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team by the oversight committee, after losing out in the popular vote to Cal Ripken Jr. and Ernie Banks.

Christy Mathewson asserted that Wagner was the only player he faced who did not have a weakness. Mathewson felt that the only way to keep Wagner from hitting was not to pitch to him.

"A stirring march and two-step", titled "Husky Hans", and "respectfully dedicated to Hans Wagner, Three-time Champion Batsman of The National League" was written by William J. Hartz in 1904.

Bill James says that Wagner is easily the greatest shortstop of all time, noting that the difference between Wagner and the second greatest shortstop, in James' estimation Arky Vaughan, is roughly the same as the gulf between Vaughan and the 20th greatest shortstop.

Wagner is mentioned in the poem Line-Up for Yesterday by Ogden Nash.

A life-size statue of Wagner swinging a bat, atop a marble pedestal featuring admiring children, was forged by a local sculptor named Frank Vittor, and placed outside the left-field corner gate at Forbes Field. It was dedicated on April 30, 1955, and the then-frail Wagner was well enough to attend and wave to his many fans. The Pirates have relocated twice since then, and the statue has come along with them. It now stands outside the main gate of PNC Park. The statue roughly faces the site of the Pirates' original home, Exposition Park, so in a sense, Wagner has come full circle.

Wagner is honored in the form of a small stadium residing behind Carnegie Elementary School on Washington Avenue in Carnegie, Pennsylvania. The stadium serves as the home field for Carlynton High School varsity sports. The Historical Society of Carnegie History Center houses the Honus Wagner Sports Museum which includes many Wagner collectibles and memorabilia. Visitors receive replicas of the famous card.

In the 1992 episode "Homer at the Bat", the popular TV show The Simpsons made a reference to Wagner. The character Mr. Burns lists three ringers he wants for his company's baseball team, but they are Honus Wagner, Cap Anson, and "Mordecai 'Three Fingers' Brown". His assistant has to point out that they are not only retired but long-dead ... Anson having played in the late 19th century.

In 2000, Wagner was honored with a U.S. postage stamp. The stamp was issued as part of a "Legends of Baseball" series that honored 20 all-time greats in conjunction with MLB's All-Century team.

T206 Baseball card

The T206 Honus Wagner baseball card is one of the rarest and most expensive baseball cards in the world, as only 57 copies are known to exist. The card was designed and issued by the American Tobacco Company (ATC) from 1909 to 1911 as part of its T206 series. While sources allege that Wagner, a nonsmoker, refused to allow the production of his baseball card to continue, the more likely reason was the sum ATC was willing to pay Wagner. The ATC ended production of the Wagner card and a total of only 57 to 200 cards were ever distributed to the public, as compared to the "tens or hundreds of thousands" of T206 cards, over three years in 16 brands of cigarettes, for any other player. In 1933, the card was first listed at a price value of US $50 in Jefferson Burdick's The American Card Catalog, making it the most expensive baseball card at the time.

The typical card in the T206 series had a width of 1+7/16 in and a height of 2+5/8 in. Some cards were awkwardly shaped or irregularly sized, which prompted a belief that many of the cards in the series had been altered at one point or another. In his work Inside T206: A Collector Guide to the Classic Baseball Card Set, Scot A. Reader wrote that, "It is not at all uncommon to find T206 examples that have been altered at some point during their near-century of existence." These discrepancies were taken advantage of by "card doctors" who trimmed corners and dirty edges to improve the appearance of the card. The front of all T206 series cards, including the Wagner card, displayed a lithograph of the player created by a multi-stage printing process in which a number of colors were printed on top of each other to create a lithograph with the appropriate design. The backs of the cards featured the monochromatic colors of the 16 tobacco brands for which the cards were printed. The Wagner cards in particular advertised the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal brands of cigarettes and were produced at Factory 25 in Virginia, as indicated by the factory stamp imprinted on the back of the cards.

Starting from January 1909, the ATC sought authorization from baseball players for inclusion in the T206 series, which featured 524 major league players, 76 of whom were later inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Wagner had been at the top of his game throughout the decade and was even considered the game's greatest player at the time. He had appeared on advertisements for a number of other products such as chewing gum, gunpowder, and soft drinks. Unsurprisingly, the ATC asked for Wagner's permission to have his picture on a baseball card. According to an October 12, 1912, issue of The Sporting News, Wagner did not give his consent to appear on the baseball card. In response to the authorization request letter sent by John Gruber, a Pittsburgh sportswriter hired by the ATC to seek Wagner's permission, Wagner wrote that he "did not care to have his picture in a package of cigarettes". He threatened to seek legal action against ATC if they went ahead and created his baseball card.

A near mint-mint condition T206 Wagner card sold in 2007 for $2.8 million, the highest price ever for a baseball card. In 2010, a previously unknown copy of the card was donated to the School Sisters of Notre Dame in Baltimore. The card, which was in poor condition, sold in November 2010 to a collector for $262,000, well over the $150,000 that was expected at auction. The card came with Sister Virginia Muller's brother's handwritten note: "Although damaged, the value of this baseball card should increase exponentially throughout the 21st century!"

On April 20, 2012, a New Jersey resident purchased a VG-3 graded T206 Wagner card for more than $1.2 million.

On April 6, 2013, a 1909–11 T206 baseball card featuring Honus Wagner sold at auction for $2.1 million.

On October 1, 2016, a T206 Wagner card graded PSA-5 sold for $3.12 million, setting yet again the record for the highest price paid for any baseball card.

On May 29, 2019, a Honus Wagner T-206 sold for $1.2 million by SCP Auctions in Southern California. The same card had been previously auctioned for $657,250 in 2014 and $776,750 in 2016. The encapsulated card was rated as only a 2 on a scale to 10.

In May 2021, one example sold for a new record $3.75 million. In doing so, it became the second most expensive baseball card sold at auction at the time.

In August 2021, another example sold for $6.6 million exceeding the previous high for most valuable sports card at the time.

On August 3, 2022, a T206 Honus Wagner was sold in a private sale for a sports card record high of $7.25 million, eclipsing the previous high of $6.6 million.

The card featured in the plot of the Nickelodeon film Swindle.

Statistics
The numbers shown below are the figures officially recognized on MLB.com.

The figures on Baseball-Reference.com are as follows. Other private research sites may have different figures. Caught Stealing is not shown comprehensively for Wagner's MLB.com totals because the stat was not regularly captured until 1920. Strikeouts are not shown comprehensively for Wagner's MLB.com totals, because the stat was not regularly captured until 1910. Note that mlb.com's Total Bases do not correspond to the number of hits, 2B, 3B, and HR listed.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Honus Wagner


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Maureen Hunter

Maureen Hunter (born 1948) is a Canadian playwright who lives on the Salish Sea at Sechelt, BC. Hunter was born in Indian Head, Saskatchewan and graduated from the University of Saskatchewan. Throughout her professional career, she lived in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Most of her plays were premiered by the Royal Manitoba Theatre Company. They have been performed in theatres across Canada, as well as in the U.S. and Britain. Transit of Venus was performed by the Royal Shakespeare Company and recorded by the BBC. An opera version of Transit of Venus premiered at Manitoba Opera in 2007. Her plays have been published by Scirocco Drama and Nuage Editions and are available through good bookstores and on Amazon. She is a member of the Playwrights Guild of Canada.

Works
. Sarah Ballenden - 2017
 * Poor Uncle Ernie in his Covered Cage - 1986
 * I Met a Bully on the Hill - co-author 1986
 * The Queen of Queen Street - 1987
 * Footprints on the Moon - 1988 (nominated for a Governor General's Award)
 * Beautiful Lake Winnipeg - 1990
 * Transit of Venus - 1992
 * Atlantis - 1996 (nominated for a Governor General's Award)
 * Vinci - 2002
 * Wild Mouth  - 2008

title: Maureen Hunter


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Talk:Exeter

Exeter
This really ought to be at Exeter. It has been the subject of a move by BRG, which Mintguy has opposed, and then an edit war. I had an open mind on this question to begin with, however Mintguy has made a very strong case for the primacy of Exeter. Further, as someone who lives many thousands of miles away from both the UK and the US and has not visited either place, I think I'm something of an impartial judge on this one: I have never heard of any place called "Exeter" except the one in England. I'll bet good money that the same applies to most people. Tannin 16:08 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Or if it does have any disambiguating text it should be in standard disambiguation form: Exeter (England). Only the US and English-speaking Canada commonly use commas. --mav 17:43 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It seems to me that Australians also use commas. In fact, when I looked up Tannin, he gave his location as "Ballarat, Victoria" -- using a comma just the same way Americans would. I've also seen Monash University given an address of "Clayton, Vic." --- BRG
 * Exeter College in Exeter, I think New Hampshire is notable, having produced certain US politicians (certain being an attribute in some cases). It was settled, I presume, by people who fanned out from Plymouth after Landing.  Its notability derives from Exeter (England) so primacy remains if it matters. Midgley 12:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: nef statement that Exeter is worst "clone town"
I have to disagree with Seglea's edit that the new economics foundation's judgement was superficial. The parameters of the survey may have been superficial, but the result, within its own terms, does not seem not to be. It clearly only refers to shops on the High Street. Exeter does indeed have a varied selection of shops in "the more interesting roads immediately connecting to it", but this is irrelevant to nef's survey. Hence my NPOV edit, which is probably being generous!

Actually I think that the whole paragraph should be struck out, because the ephemeral nef survey has little relevance to a permanent encyclopaedia article. Or maybe it should be replaced with something along the lines of "In 2005 Exeter was voted the worst clone town in Britain - an award disputed by many local residents"

See http://www.neweconomics.org/gen/news_clonetownbritainresults.aspx and the pdf of the full report. Smalljim 22:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I don't think there's a need for an edit war on this one. I decidedly agree that, at least in a few months' time, the whole thing should be reduced to a sentence.  One of the advantages of Wikipedia over other encyclopedias, however, is that we can give temporary prominence to ephemeral issues like this, so I wouldn't want to do so immediately.  On reflection, what I was objecting to was the inclusion of the location of the more interesting shops within the matter of opinion - that is a matter of fact; the superficiality of the judgement, however, is a genuine matter of opinion and you're right, it should be flagged as such.  I just whipped out the "Some say..." usage because I think it is one of the worst Wikipedia-isms - the kind of thing you tell first year students off for saying in essays - and also often inserted when the reality is "Everyone who knows anything about it agrees, but a few people with a bee in their bonnets disagree..." I'm not suggesting this is one of these cases, of course, and actually in this case it's known who says it (local residents, as correctly noted above, and also if I remember rightly the city council).  I'll try to track down the official rebuttal, but for now I'll just change to "many local residents", the truth of which I can vouch for, being one.  seglea 08:16, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I was going to say there is far too much about that topic and how about we reduce it sharply - I'm not even sure the survey needs mentioning by name except in the deep reference stuff in here or the history trail. A year on, time to boil it down.  Should we have a picture of the Princesshay developments?  If so where should it be taken from?  Midgley 12:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

 * How can the Princesshay redevelopment possibly be used as an explanation for the clone like nature of the High Street? What 'banks' moved onto the High Street from there? Princesshay was low-rent and actually used to contain many independent retailers. Its 'redevelopment' will increase rents and force out the smaller retailers; ie the number of chain-stores in Exeter will go up not down. The paragraph should be truncated to a couple sentences on the NEF findings alone IMO.Simmyymmis 01:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Done. Is NEF notable? There are any number of surveys and that seemed unremarkable.  "Exeter has the usual range of national chains in its High St" would be a possible insertion, for the moment I've gutted that paragraph and left it.  Midgley 04:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Exeter Falcons
Should the Exeter Falcons Speedway team be included in the "Sports" section? I understand that they are on 'hiatus' this year due to the County Ground changing hands, however they are almost certain that they will be back next year. They've been a prominent team on the Speedway circuit, but I didn't know whether to include it as they are currently 'inactive'. - crewdy 16:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've only just read this and felt they should be there so i edited it in as the papers are full of the proposed move which i believe has been given the green light - Scott

Haldon FreeRide
Should Haldon Freeride be in the sports section? It's a voluntary project just outside exeter to create a series of mountainbike trails. I would just put it in the page myself but am wiki noob, so thought I'd ask first. --PeteOtaqui 14:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

John Carne Bidwill (1815-1853)
Bidwill was a botanist who was active in Australia, who was born in Exeter.

I would appreciate anyones contribution to John Carne Bidwill - as he became a botanist I can only assume he was schooled somewhere! Given what he rose to become (a magistrate amongst other things) I am guessing his family weren't total nobodies at the time?

Hoping to hit on a local historian from Exeter, Garrie 23:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
I've removed an infobox cleanup tag from this article. I understand that it was placed there as a sugestion that the box be replaced with a standard template version. Unfortunately, no such template currently exists. Infobox city is rather US-centric, and English cities (but not Scottish cities) are currently uncatered for. A proposed solution would be to expand Infobox England place to accommodate English cities. The alternative, a new template forking either of the above templates, is less ideal, but more easily doable. — mholland 15:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Road
Someone added this to the article, ut it belongs here really:
 * have you ever heard of something starting at junction 31??? think it ends in exeter with junctions 29 through 31.... oh and there is a good little backroad off the 303 that goes through Larkhill and avoids stonehenge
 * Totnesmartin 19:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course the M5 starts at J31... pure metropolicentricism to suppose it starts somewhere in the wilds of Birmingham. (Compare Bluff, New Zealand, which advertises itself as "The place where the highway begins").  seglea (talk) 22:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * why I meant was, logically it would start at junction 1 and end at 31. In any case metrocentrism is appropriate as that's how the motorways were conceived - thay radiate away from the major cities. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What? is irony dead in Totnes? seglea (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The A30 starts at J31 ... as does the A38 I suppose as it is the end of the MWay at that point.90.152.33.151 13:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Geography
I have added a section for this - using some of the existing Situation information but stripping out the history bits. I am trying to see how I can add those back in - but I am having difficulty shoehorning in the ecclesiastical bit. I leave below what I have not been able to find a home for (help). "From Saxon times until the 19th century, the diocese of Exeter covered the whole of the counties of Devon and Cornwall, and civil administration and services tended to follow the lines of the ecclesiastical."

I have removed the part about Topsham - it seems well covered in the Canal section. JamesFitz 23:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added a sub category of Climate with Weather averages for Exeter (1971-2000 averages from Teignmouth from the Met Office). Bsrboy 20:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsrboy (talk • contribs)

Sport
I have removed the following which an anon had put in as a header to the Sport section:
 * "The city of Exeter has underachieved in all aspects of sports, relative to other towns and cities in the United Kingdom of similar size and importance:"

Actually I think this is arguably true, but it is not supported by the material which follows in the Sport section, except in relation to soccer. If we are going to say this, we need some examples of other towns and cities of comparable importance, with links to the sections of articles about them which show clearly that they have performed better. Otherwise it's just POV seglea 19:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Economy

Have removed the following McDonald's photo and explanation:

... for its shameless promotion of something that isn't in the slightest representative of the economy of Exeter. If the poster of the image wants to see this on Wiki, they'd be well advised to post it to the McDonald's article. --Manusmanus (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Princess Hay Explosion
Removed this section: a news item that already (for some unknown reason) has its own page. An encyclopedia is not the place for filing news stories, unless the story is in itself significant.

--Manusmanus (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think before this is remvoed there should be more debate on it. The inclusion in the Exeter article is minimal, because yes it has it's own page. Maybe you are unaware, it was an explosion with terrorist activity - just, unlike the Glasgow attempted attack, there was only one injured. Maybe reading the article may help you realise the severity of the incident. Thenthornthing (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should have its own sub-section in the history section. A sentence at the end mentioning it with a link is sufficient. The picture might be used, if no other better ones can be found of this period, whilst moving the other images further up the page or perhaps moving them elsewhere, as they're not so much about history. bsrboy (talk) 15:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There are already numerous articles dedicated to terrorist incidents in the UK, which is where something like this belongs. It was a minor incident with no real significance in the long term. Compared to, say, levels of fatal drug use in Exeter, the "severity" of this failed plot is minimal. If you feel an absolute need to have this linked to this article, place a link to its own page in the "See also" section. --Manusmanus (talk) 09:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Agree - a totally insignificant event compared to the daily violence on the streets of all UK cities, I'd say remove all reference to it. --C Hawke (talk) 11:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Whereas I agree with the above comment, there still should be a minor mention on it. Even if it is just a sentence. People will still remember this, people in Exeter and with an interest in Devon that is, so therefore should be mentioned. Thenthornthing (talk) 13:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ - I've added one sentence about it at the end of the history section with a link to the article. bsrboy (talk) 15:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Still not at all convinced that this trifling event contributes in any way shape or form to the history of Exeter any more, than, say, it's a fact that people sometimes have picnics on the Cathedral green, but will live with the compromise. --Manusmanus (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It has a lot of third party references, although the main reason it has so many is because of its topic i.e. it creates good media attention. This isn't how Wikipedia works, but one sentence will not damage its reputation. bsrboy (talk) 14:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Physical Size of Exeter
Nowhere in the article is there a mention of the physical size (sq km) of Exeter. This information is usually included in the infobox. Given that it's both a city and a district, this information should readily be available on the page, no?--Criticalthinker (talk) 09:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 4,703, although I can't be bother to add it in, as the infobox should probably be converted to template:Infobox settlement.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  13:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The High Street
As in most English towns and cities, people in Exeter don't talk about "High Street" but about "the High Street" (although "The city's High Street" and similar are perfectly ok, and an address in the High Street would just be written as "101 High Street"). I have changed wording throughout the article to reflect this. I don't know why it is so, but it is. It doesn't apply if the main street is called "Main Street" (rare in the UK) or "Fore Street" (common in Devon and Cornwall). seglea (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of streets, there is no mention of the usage "Hay" in Exeter's street names. Monomoit (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

 * "Hay" I was informed by an Exeter City Council redcoat guide was a designation for a meadow, presumably literally - where there's hay. Therefore I presume Southernhay, Northernhay, and Princesshay were at one time meadows - no references for it though.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.197.32 (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite true, I think. "Haie" was a Norman French word meaning a fenced enclosure - as at Hay-on-Wye, Roundhay in Leeds, Pithay in Bristol, etc.  The SOED has a definition of it: "a hedge, fence... an enclosure... a park".  There's a reference to the word's use in Exeter here - I'm not sure why it is more prevalent in Exeter than elsewhere.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting - got me searching a bit. The name Princesshay is modern - I think this can be trusted for that. Northernhay and Southernhay were hedged enclosures to the north and south of the city walls, according to trusty old Gover, Mawer and Stenton's Placenames of Devon (1931) p.24. On p.129, GM&S further points out that placenames ending in -hayes or -hayne are common in S.E. Devon, and probably derive from the name of a medieval owner or a short placename (Stone, Coombe, Wood, Ford etc.), with the suffix coming to mean farm or holding, similar to -bury in Essex etc. Learned opinion may have changed in the intervening 80 years, of course, but there it is, FWIW. —S MALL  JIM   22:30, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Extonian?
Just noticed the demonym for a resident of Exeter is listed as "Extonian" whereas I thought it was "Exonian". Not saying that either is necessarily correct or incorrect I am just seeking clarification so is there any chance of a source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.43.239 (talk) 20:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have changed it to Exonian, although I cannot find any reliable sources.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  21:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OED, the most reliable source possible for an English word, has Exonian, first recorded in 1871. It has no record of Extonian, the nearest related word being extonious (obsolete, rare), meaning astonishing.  As an Exonian of 32 years' standing I have never heard Extonian used.  OED derives Exonian from the late Latin Exonia for Exeter (the Romans of course called it Isca Dumnoniorum), which appears also in the signature of the Bishop of Exeter and in the designation of University of Exeter graduates as Exon. (Exoniensis) seglea (talk) 14:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I originaly added Extonian, but I know little about Exeter and I guess I mixed it up with Exonian.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  16:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * From the OED dates, I strongly suspect that "Exonian" was one of those pseudo-traditional Victorian coinages. But Extonian would never do, because historically the x and t in Exeter where more separate - it was Excester or even Execester in the 16th century.  I guess an Extonian should come from Exton, down on the east side of the Exe estuary.  I must remember to introduce "extonious" into my everyday conversation, it should be quite self-referential.  seglea (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Exmouth section
removed a short section on Exmouth, as follows: "Exeter also maintains a strong relationship with neighbouring Exmouth in terms of visitors, travel, schooling and the River Exe. An estimated 16000 people travel from Exeter to Exmouth every year and 6000 from Exmouth to Exeter. The local travel companies often organise trips around the landscape, places include the River Exe. Exmouth offered support and policing in shadow of the attempted terrorist attack at the Princess Hay shopping centre." This doesn't seem to belong in an Exeter article - the commuting figures are possibly interesting but don't add much unless there were comparable figures for other neighbouring towns, and anyway they are unclear and unreferenced. seglea (talk) 22:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Rougemont Castle
I removed the line "Note the red sandstone, characteristic of many older Exeter buildings." from the caption of the picture of Rougemont Castle gatehouse as it is misleading. Although it is true of many buildings in Exeter, it is not true of the castle gatehouse, which was constructed from reddish volcanic rock quarried at Rougemont circa 1068. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.196.227 (talk) 19:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks for the correction. Do you have a source for this kind of information? seglea (talk) 23:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It's in: 'Geology Explained in South & East Devon' - Perkins, J.W. 1971, page 119. Sorry, pretty much my first ever wiki edit... I don't know how to reference stuff properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.196.227 (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

New infobox image removed
add the image on the right to the infobox. I really don't see how four badly-cropped, dull images of featureless buildings could possibly represent Exeter. For that reason I have removed it. Let's see what others think and if the current collage is unrepresentative then we can work to update it with different individual images rather than use this poor collection. --Simple Boba.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 11:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

If you think that "featureless buildings" aren't representative of Exeter than clearly you're not familiar with the city itself. Surely Wikipedia is about the facts and not about the promotion of the city through some highly selective, chocolate box images of the cathedral or Mol's Coffee House. The current images are nothing but a gross distortion of the visual reality of Exeter. It seems that my images were removed primarily because they weren't 'pretty', but the majority of central Exeter isn't pretty and I see little point in pretending that it is. This is a Wikipedia page, not a website sponsored by Exeter City Council to encourage tourism. The Wiki article on Exeter itself clearly states that: "Large areas of the city were rebuilt in the 1950s, when little attempt was made to preserve Exeter's ancient heritage. Damaged buildings were generally demolished rather than restored, and even the street plan was altered in an attempt to improve traffic circulation. The post-war buildings are generally perceived as being of little architectural merit, unlike many of those that they replaced". Shouldn't this be reflected in the city's main profile picture? My photographs of Sidwell Street, High Street and South Street represent the overall cityscape of central Exeter much more accurately than the images being used at the moment which are *totally* misleading. Horza1972 (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I know Exeter very well having worked there for seven years. As I said, if there are problems with the current image then let's tweak that, but your photos just went to the other extreme and are as unrepresentative of the city as what you call the chocolate box pictures are. Besides if there is to be a montage, rather than the preferred skyline image, then it should be representative of the whole city not just the centre. --Simple Boba.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 13:24, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry but I don't know how to reply to individual comments. 75% of the central city dates to no earlier than 1900. The current montage of photographs on the Wiki page for Exeter shows five images, four of which depict buildings that were built before 1900. That is not an accurate representation. If we are to use five photographs then three of them, at least, should show structures built over the last century and which still remain standing today. You say my photos went from one extreme to another. Sidwell Street, South Street and the High Street are three of Exeter's main commercial and historic routes (I admit that the inclusion of Coombe Street was unnecessary) and will be familiar to anyone visiting the city. What has the fact that they are full of hideous buildings got to do with anything? As I said before, it's Wikipedia, not a promo for Exeter City Council. I am curious to know why a very small handful of tourist hot spots is an acceptable reflection of the city as a whole. Historic buildings account for much less than 25% of the pre-20th century city and yet four of the five photos are of historic structures. It is a blatant misrepresenation, no?::Horza1972 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Just chipping in as someone who lived in Exeter for 14 years or so (working as a town planner!!). Any montage needs to be balanced, showing historic and architecturally important structures as well as modern ones.  The current montage reflects that reasonably well - the one uploaded by Horza1972 doesn't and is a little pointy.  Indeed, "Large areas of the city centre were rebuilt in the 1950s" - but not the whole city.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

 * You say that the whole city wasn't rebuilt in the 1950s. This is correct. There are numerous suburbs that escaped, including St Leonard's and Pennsylvannia, but the current montage shows the Cathedral, the Queen Street clock tower, the Iron Bridge and the Cathedral Close, ALL of which are in the city centre. So the montage IS being presented as a reflection of the city centre. You would not expect a city's profile photograph to show images from its suburbs, surely? Why are you against the inclusion of images from South Street or North Street or Paris Street or Sidwell Street or the High Street, or Princesshay or of the Guildhall Shopping Centre, or any of the other almost totally rebuilt areas of the central city? Why the focus on the chocolate box? These rebuilt areas are much more accurate reflection of what the majority of the city is like and yet none of them appear on the current montage. It is simply not accurate. Does Wikipedia prefer prettiness to accuracy?:::Horza1972 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I just looked up what WP:POINT means and if you excuse my pun I get the point. The four building images that were chosen are clearly trying to make a point and do not in any way represent the city that I live in. The castle, the parks, the hospital, the river and canal, even Princesshay - these are all things which represent my Exeter. I feel sad for you if your Exeter is full of soulless buildings. Do not use this article as a platform for pushing your singular point of view. --

Religion
'Of which a majority ...' is not grammatically a sentence, and I don't see why the cathedral is an exception - the C of E is a Christian denomination. Mdrb55 (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Fixed this now. Mdrb55 (talk) 15:42, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Also the section in 'religion' about the 2001 census contains a 'sentence' (Although ... Buddhism) which is not grammatically a sentence. I don't understand it. I think 'exemption' should be 'exception'. Mdrb55 (talk) 21:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Old Houses Frog Street, Exeter.jpg

Sources for future article expansion
There is an enormous amount of information on early Exeter in this extensively researched book that at least currently is in open availability from JSTOR. Anyone interested in the area is welcome to check for details and build out different sections of the article. Just remember any maps or other images need to be built out again to avoid copyright issues. — Llywelyn II   10:18, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

 * On the German language pge about Exeter, it is written; war früher die Hauptstadt von Cornwall. So Exeter was previously the capital city of Cornwall. Is that written anywhere else, such as the book mentioned above? 85.94.248.27 (talk) 09:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

 * It's difficult to know the intention of something that was added back in 2005, but my guess would be that this relates to Dumnonia which covered Cornwall, Devon, and some of Somerset. In his 2002 book, Britain and the End of the Roman Empire, Ken Dark writes "Land's End was, to the geographer Ptolemy, 'the Dumnonian promontory' while Exeter was Isca Dumnoniorum - 'Isca of the Dumnonii', the civitas capital of this people." So that would link it to a people rather than specifically Cornwall. Chapter 3 of the book Llywelyn linked to, Stephen Rippon and David Gould goes into the situation in some detail.
 * I think it would be more accurate to say that Exeter was the capital of Dumnonia rather than Cornwall. Richard Nevell (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Exeter