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Lucy Parsons

Lucy E. Parsons (c. 1851 – 1942) was an American social anarchist and later anarcho-communist. Her early life is shrouded in mystery: she herself said she was of mixed Mexican and Native American ancestry; historians believe she was born to an African American slave, possibly in Virginia, then married a black freedman in Texas. In addition to Parsons, she went by different surnames during her life including Carter, Diaz, Gonzalez and Hull. She met Albert Parsons in Waco, Texas, and claimed to have married him although no records have been found. They moved to Chicago together around 1873 and Parsons' politics were shaped by the harsh repression of the Chicago railroad strike of 1877. She argued for labor organization and class struggle, writing polemical texts and speaking publicly at events. She joined the International Workingmen's Association and later the Knights of Labor, and she set up the Chicago Working Women's Union with her friend Lizzie Swank and other women.

She had two children and worked in Chicago as a seamstress, later opening her own shop. After Albert Parsons was executed in 1887 following the Haymarket affair, she became internationally famous as an anarchist speaker, touring frequently across the United States and visiting England. She was a founding member of the Industrial Workers of the World and edited radical newspapers. She was helped financially by the Pioneer Aid and Support Association and completed The Life of Albert R. Parsons with her young lover Martin Lacher. Following the Russian Revolution in 1917, Parsons moved towards communism. She became a notorious political figure and Chicago police attempted for decades to stop her speaking publicly. She clashed with Emma Goldman over their differing attitudes to free love and continued her activism as she grew older, supporting Angelo Herndon, Tom Mooney, and the Scottsboro Boys.

Parsons died in a house fire on March 7, 1942. Her partner George Markstall returned to find the building on fire and was unable to rescue her; he died the following day. She was buried in the German Waldheim Cemetery, where the Haymarket Martyrs' Monument stands. After her death, Parsons was primarily referenced as the wife of Albert Parsons, until recent scholarship and two book-length biographies have commemorated her own achievements. The Chicago Park District named a park on Belmont Avenue after her in 2004.

Early life
Little is known for certain about Parsons' early life. Biographer Caroline Ashbaugh states she was born the daughter of a slave in 1849 and was possibly called Lucy Gathings; through her life Parsons also used the surnames Carter, Diaz, Gonzalez and Hull. There is confusion over Parsons' middle name; while historians such as Philip S. Foner give it as Eldine, both the birth certificate of her daughter and her own death certificate supply the name Ella. Throughout her life, Parsons denied being of African heritage and said that she had Mexican and Native American parents, mixing up their genders. When later events made her famous, national newspapers tried to investigate her Texas heritage but were unable to do so. One story she told was that she was born in Texas to Marie del Gather (who was of Spanish-Mexican ancestry) and John Waller, a Muscogee Native American. Her entry in the American National Biography suggests she may have been daughter to Pedro Diáz González and his wife Marie. Her contemporaries remarked upon her beautiful appearance and dark hair.

In Goddess of Anarchy: The Life and Times of Lucy Parsons, American Radical, social historian Jacqueline Jones states that Parsons was born a slave in Virginia and in 1863 at the age of 12 was brought to McLennan County, Texas, by her owner Thomas J. Taliaferro along with her mother and brother. On this account she was called Lucia; she then moved to Waco, Texas, which had been founded in 1849 and in the postwar period was a place where people were reinventing their identities as they moved on from their past lives as slaves or Confederate soldiers. The 1863 Emancipation Proclamation by Abraham Lincoln had freed enslaved African Americans and in Texas General Order No. 3 emancipated slaves on June 19, 1865. Parsons, then known as Lucia Carter, began living with (and possibly married) a black freedman called Oliver Benton, formerly known as Oliver Gathings, because slaves were given the surnames of their owners. She was about 16 or 17 years old, and he was around 35 or 36. Benton paid $1.50 per month for her education at a local black school. They may have had a child together who died at a young age. Ashbaugh suggests that Parsons was (like Benton) a former slave of the Gathings brothers, since Philip Gathings had a daughter named Lucy in 1849 and Parsons may have been named after her. While slave records preserve no names, the Gathings brothers did each own two slave girls in 1860 who would have been around Parsons' age. Parsons herself told different versions of her life history.

Lucy Gathings met the white Albert Parsons in Waco. It is doubtful they were ever married since no records have been found and there were at the time anti-miscegenation laws. Both Lucy and Albert Parsons claimed that they married in Austin in 1872, while Parsons told the Dictionary of American Biography for Albert's entry that they married on June 10, 1871. The historian Lucie C. Price was unable to find any records either of the marriage certificate or of the official whom Parsons said had recorded the marriage. They lived together as husband and wife, Lucy taking the name Parsons. Albert had fought in the American Civil War on the losing Confederate side and after the war had become a Radical Republican agitating for black civil rights. Lucy Parsons always opposed racism and it is likely she had witnessed the activities of the Ku Klux Klan in Waco, while Albert was shot in the leg for helping black people to register to vote.

Moving to Chicago

Lucy and Albert Parsons moved to Chicago in about 1873. The industrial city was growing quickly as it recovered from the 1871 Great Chicago Fire, with the population rocketing from 112,000 to 1.1 million inhabitants between 1870 and 1890. The couple lived in poor working-class slum tenements around Larrabee Street and North Avenue on the North Side. Albert Parsons worked as a compositor for newspapers and Lucy Parsons earned money as a seamstress. The couple became involved in the Social Democratic Party of North America and later the Workingmen's Party of the United States after the dissolution of the International Workingmen's Association (which had also been known as the First International). Parsons demonstrated her willingness to stand up for her rights by twice taking white people to court in 1875, over an unpaid bill and a neighbor disturbance, respectively.

When the Chicago railroad strike of 1877 occurred as part of the Great Upheaval, Albert Parsons at first told the crowds to remain non-violent and to vote for the Workingmen's Party to achieve political change. Soon, all railway workers were on strike and the Chicago Board of Trade was concerned that a situation similar to the 1871 Paris Commune might develop. On July 23, Albert Parsons and fellow socialists Philip Van Patten and George Schilling spoke to a crowd of 25,000 people. He was then fired from his job at the Chicago Times and blacklisted. Armed men took him to Mayor of Chicago Monroe Heath's office, where the police chief and angry business leaders threatened him; later that day he had gun put to his head by two unknown men when he went to the Chicago Tribune to ask for work. Lucy Parsons resolved to get a job to support her family, starting a shop selling suits and dresses. She expanded the business into Parsons & Co., Manufacturers of Ladies' and Children's Clothing, opening a workspace at 306 Mohawk Street and employing her partner since he was now blacklisted.

Parsons' first writings to be published were letters to the editor of The Socialist concerning the hunger and poverty of the working class. She began to lecture after the birth of her son, Albert Parsons Jr., in September 1879. Her biographer Jones notes that on the birth certificate she wrote her maiden name as Carter and Virginia as her place of birth. Parsons' political perspective was evolving, and she determined that her personal problems were insignificant since only social movements could achieve change. She was more militant than her partner, campaigning against voting at a time when she did not have the right to do it herself. Her observations of the strike taught her that workers were powerful when united. She developed her social anarchist approach, in which she condoned political violence, urged self-defense against racial violence and called for class struggle against religion. Alongside women such as Elizabeth Chambers Morgan, Elizabeth Flynn Rodgers, Alzina Stevens and Lizzie Swank she helped to set up the Chicago Working Women's Union (WWU) and attended meetings while pregnant, at a time when child-bearing women were expected to stay at home. Swank became a good friend of Parsons and as soon as the Knights of Labor decided to admit women, they both joined up. The WWU encouraged women to unionize and promoted the eight-hour day.

On April 20, 1881, Parsons gave birth to her second child, Lulu Eda, who was to die of lymphedema at the age of eight. In 1883, Johann Most visited Chicago and met the Parsons family. He was an insurrectionary anarchist who promoted propaganda of the deed. In November, Albert Parsons founded the American Group of Chicago as local part of the International Working People's Association (IWPA), which contained five of the eight men who would later be the Haymarket affair defendants, namely himself and Samuel Fielden, Adolph Fischer, Oscar Neebe and August Spies. When it published the radical newspaper The Alarm in 1884, the four main contributors were Lucy Parsons, Albert Parsons, William Holmes and Lizzie Swank. Lucy Parsons published texts including "Our Civilization. Is it Worth Saving?", "The Factory Child. Their Wrongs Portrayed and Their Rescue Demanded" and "The Negro. Let Him Leave Politics to the Politician and Prayers to the Preacher". Her article "To Tramps, the Unemployed, the Disinherited and Miserable" was reprinted from The Alarm and sold more than 100,000 copies between May and November 1885. The same year Parsons published "Dynamite! The only voice the oppressors of the people can understand" in the Denver Labor Enquirer. She saw violence as inevitable in class struggle and also believed in trade unions as the engine of the revolution. On April 28, 1885, Parsons and Lizzie Holmes (Swank) led an IWPA march to the Board of Trade building. During this time period, Parsons and her partner would often address crowds of 500 to 1,000 people on Sundays at the shore of Lake Michigan. Labor organizer Mother Jones attended and thought the speeches advocated too much violence.

Haymarket affair
On Saturday May 1, 1886, 300,000 workers went on strike across the US. In Chicago, the Parsons family led a peaceful demonstration of 80,000 people down Michigan Avenue, demanding the eight-hour day. Two days later, August Spies addressed striking workers at the McCormick Reaper factory; Chicago Police and private security guards known as Pinkertons attacked the gathering, shooting at least one person dead. On May 4, Lucy Parsons was organizing a meeting to support striking sewing women and asked Albert Parsons to join her; on the same night, there was a protest against the recent police brutality at the nearby Haymarket Square. At the square there were a few thousand people and Albert Parsons took the podium after August Spies. After the speeches, 176 police officers marched into the square and ordered the demonstrators to disperse; in response, a bomb was thrown from the crowd. The police immediately opened fire, shooting at least seven workers dead, while one police officer died and six others succumbed to their injuries later; it is likely that in the chaos the officers were killed by police bullets. The incident became known as the Haymarket affair. The Parsons family was at Zepf's Hall nearby and heard the blast; Lucy urged Albert to flee the city and he first went to Geneva, Illinois to stay with Lizzie and William Holmes, then moved to Waukesha, Wisconsin where he worked as a laborer and stayed with Daniel Hoan.

On May 5, the day after the bombing, Lucy Parsons was in the office of the Arbeiter-Zeitung when it was raided by police officers without a search warrant. They arrested the entire staff including Parsons, whom an officer called "a black bitch"; she was released without charge since the police were hoping she would lead them to her partner. Over the next six months she was briefly detained several times. Other mass arrests and unlawful searches were made and Julius S. Grinnell, the Illinois Attorney General who would later prosecute the case, said "Make the raids first then look up the law afterwards". Lucy Parsons reported in the Denver Labor Enquirer: "They have invaded the homes of everyone who has ever been known to have raised a voice or sympathized with those who have had aught to say against the present system of robbery and oppression". A Grand Jury announced charges against 31 men on May 27, including murder charges against ten. Lizzie Holmes was not charged since prosecutors did not want to cause a scandal by sentencing a woman to death. All but one of the men were members of the Central Labor Union and the most fervent advocates of propaganda by the deed (including Lucy Parsons and Lizzie Holmes) had not been charged.

The attitude of the US labor movement towards those accused was mixed, with some militants voicing support and others concerned by the loss of life. While Albert was in hiding, he wrote to Lucy Parsons asking her to talk to the lawyer William P. Black and discuss the conditions of his surrender. Black encouraged her to bring him to court, believing there was little chance of conviction. His chief aide William A. Foster disagreed, thinking it best that Parsons remained free. On the first day of trial, Albert Parsons appeared after spending some hours with Lucy and surrendered to Judge Joseph Gary. The mainstream media campaign against anarchists was intense, with the Chicago Tribune calling for executions and Texas newspapers revisiting the presumed scandal of Parsons leaving her marriage with Oliver Benton for Albert. The Waco Day headlined a story "Beast Parsons: the sneaking snarl from some moral morass in which he hides; miscegenationist, murderer, moral outlaw, for whom the gallows waits". In response, Parsons visited her partner in jail with a journalist from the Tribune and he said he had been romantically attached to Benton's wife but that she was a different person to Lucy.

Lucy Parsons attended every day of the trial and then after her partner was sentenced to death, she made a seven-week lecture tour in order to raise funds for the defense committee; she addressed more than 200,000 people in places such as Cincinnati, New York and Philadelphia. In New Haven, Connecticut, she said "You may have expected me to belch forth great flames of dynamite and stand before you with bombs in my hands. If you are disappointed, you have only the capitalist press to thank for it". She spoke with the socialist Thomas J. Morgan at a rally in Sheffield, Indiana, which was just across the state line from Illinois, so that the Chicago police were unable to stop the event. In Columbus, Ohio, she was prevented from speaking and sent by the mayor to Franklin County Jail. When not lecturing, Parsons would visit her partner in jail, taking the children with her. She stopped her tailoring shop and the family was forced to move out of their Indiana Street apartment to another on Milwaukee Avenue. After his death sentence was announced, Albert Parsons wrote to his wife "I have one request to make of you: Commit no rash act to yourself when I am gone, but take up the great cause of Socialism where I am compelled to lay it down." An Amnesty Association was founded and took action to save Albert Parsons and the six other men on death row; Lucy Parsons spent her time fundraising and collecting signatures on the street, and the campaign to commute the sentences was supported even by those such as Melville Elijah Stone, editor of the Chicago Daily News, who had previously condemned the anarchists.

On Thursday November 10, Louis Lingg was either murdered or committed suicide in his cell. In the evening Governor of Illinois Richard J. Oglesby announced that of the other men condemned to death, Fielden and Schwab would have their sentences commuted to life imprisonment and Engel, Fischer, Parsons and Spies would be executed the next day. On the morning of Parsons' execution, Lucy Parsons took the children to see him for the last time, accompanied by Lizzie Holmes. Despite being promised by a deputy sheriff the day before that she would gain access; she was prevented from entering the jail by a police cordon. When she attempted to cross the cordon, the group was arrested and taken to the Chicago Avenue police station where they were strip-searched for explosives and detained until 15:00. The casket containing the corpse of Albert Parsons was taken to Lucy Parsons' shop, where over 10,000 people came to pay respects in one day. A total of between 10,000 and 15,000 people attended the funeral on Sunday, November 13; Parsons walked behind the casket. Twenty years later, she edited and published The Famous Speeches of the Eight Chicago Anarchists in Court: When asked if they had anything to say why sentence of death should not be passed upon them: October 7, 8, and 9, 1886, and sold more than 10,000 copies in 18 months.

Continued activism
After the funeral of her partner, Parsons continued her political activism. The Pioneer Aid and Support Association gave her a stipend of $12 per week and in March 1888 she toured the East Coast making speeches. During the 1887 Chicago mayoral election, Parsons supported the United Labor Party candidate against the eventual victor, Republican John A. Roche. Roche framed the contest as a battle between the US flag and the flags of anarchism and communism, later attempting to ban the use of red flags at left-wing meetings. Parsons began to work on the book which she later published as The Life of Albert R. Parsons. She was helped by Martin Lacher, a young German who lived with her from 1889 onwards. In October 1888, she took the boat to London, where she met anarchists Peter Kropotkin and William Morris and visited the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey with Jane Morris. She addressed the Socialist League and clashed with Annie Besant, a leader of the matchgirls' strike, over the issue of violence. When she arrived back in New York City by boat, a reporter interviewed her and then claimed that she was getting married to the German democratic socialist Eduard Bernstein. Parsons' anarchist contemporaries such as Justus Schwab condemned the story and she denied it.

After Parsons returned to Chicago in 1889, the newly renamed Albert R. Parsons Assembly of the Knights of Labor publicized a forthcoming lecture by her entitled Review of the Labor Movement in Europe. Chicago police chief George W. Hubbard resolved to stop the event and on the day itself, Lacher and another man were arrested as they protested for Parsons' right to speak. She developed a rivalry with Thomas J. Morgan, who advocated a socialist approach to work as opposed to her syndicalism. Hubbard announced that "she simply can't speak in Chicago" and repeatedly stopped events occurring. The same year, Parsons published The Life of Albert R. Parsons with a foreword by George Schilling. In November 1890, Johann Most, Parsons and Hugh O. Pentecost were prevented from speaking in Newark, New Jersey when the police closed the hall. Parsons then attempted to speak on the street: she was arrested and charged with incitement to riot. Parsons edited the newspaper Freedom, A Revolutionary Anarchist-Communist Monthly from 1891 onwards. Parsons built a house at 999 Hammond Avenue, later North Troy Street in Avondale with the aid of the Pioneer Aid and Support Association, but some members of the group began to resent her need for funds, alleging that she was still claiming a stipend for her daughter who had died. Her relationship with Lacher was controversial since he remained married to someone else. The couple were by 1890 seen together publicly until their relationship ended in a court battle, when Parsons accused him of attacking her household belongings with an axe. Lacher admitted destroying furniture but argued it belonged to him; he was fined $25 plus costs for disorderly conduct. He also alleged that he had written the majority of the Life of Albert R. Parsons. Parsons used her position as editor of Freedom to attack Lacher, claiming he had stolen money from a local group and was pursuing a vendetta against her.

As the years past, there were events to mark the anniversary of the Haymarket affair and the police continued to stop Parsons addressing these and other meetings. When the anarchist Alexander Berkman attempted to assassinate the industrialist Henry Clay Frick in 1892, Parsons wrote in Freedom "For our part we have only the greatest admiration for a hero like Berkman" and she supported her friends Henry Bauer and Carl Nold who were arrested on conspiracy charges despite not being involved. Berkman was handed a sentence of 22 years and Nold and Bauer each received five years. In 1893, Parsons negotiated with the mayor that she could speak on the condition that she did not denounce him, then took the stage and immediately said the mayor was no better than a czar. In August 1896, her house burned down and her stock of books was damaged, although she later sold fire-damaged copies of Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Scientific Basis and The Life of Albert R. Parsons.

Parsons was attracted to the activism of the Social Democracy of America, led by Eugene V. Debs, and met Emma Goldman through the group in 1897. While Goldman promoted free love, emancipation for women and the freedom of the individual, Parsons (despite having extra-marital sex in her private life) publicly endorsed monogamy, marriage and motherhood, still believing in the primacy of the struggle of the working class as a whole. At the time Goldman, Parsons and Louise Michel were amongst a small cohort of women who were internationally famous as anarchists and labor activists. When Oscar Rotter wrote about free love and the destruction of property relations in the anarchist newspaper Free Society, Parsons responded angrily in support of monogamy and this led to a long-lasting feud with Goldman, who complained that Parsons was living off her executed partner's legacy. Parsons opposed both the Spanish–American War and the Philippine–American War; after her son Albert Jr. attempted to enlist, she had him committed to the Northern Illinois State Mental Hospital in 1899; he remained there for the rest of his life, dying in 1919 of tuberculosis.

1900s
Parsons was visited by anarchist Errico Malatesta in 1900 and the same year made a speech alongside trade unionist Jay Fox at a picnic on Memorial Day. By that time, Parsons was the Chicago correspondent for Free Society; the next year, following the assassination of President William McKinley by Leon Czolgosz, the police destroyed its printing press. In 1905, Parsons set up the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) with Eugene V. Debs, Bill Haywood and Mother Jones. She continued to tour the US making speeches and selling pamphlets, while editing the radical newspapers The Liberator and The Alarm. She was often prevented from speaking by the police, particularly in Chicago, yet she continued to lecture until the 1920s. Around 1912, she was involved with the Syndicalist League of North America, which was led by William Z. Foster.

An affair famous from this era was her speech in the Hull House. After she spoke at a January 1915 hunger march in Chicago which ended in 1,500 unemployed people fighting with the police near Hull House on Halsted Street, Parsons was arrested alongside Father Irwin St. John Tucker and 19 other people.

Following the Russian Revolution in 1917, Parsons moved towards communism. She later wrote to Carl Nold that the communists were "the only bunch who are making a vigorous protest against the present horrible conditions!" and lamented that "anarchism is a dead issue in American life today". She became involved with the International Labor Defense and in 1930, she spoke to thousands of people at the May Day (International Workers' Day) event at Ashland Auditorium in Chicago, making a speech that was reprinted in Hearings Before a Special Committee to Investigate Communist Activities in the U.S.. In a continuance of their rivalry, Emma Goldman criticized her for jumping from one revolutionary cause to the next. Parsons finally joined the Communist Party in 1939.

Parsons suffered an attack of pleurisy in 1932, recovering enough to visit the Chicago World's Fair the following year. She was despondent about the US anarchist movement, discussing its failure with friends such as Nord, yet she continued her activism, supporting Angelo Herndon, Tom Mooney and the Scottsboro Boys. She went blind, received a pension and lived in poverty in Avondale at North Troy Street with a library of around 3,000 books which featured the work of Engels, French socialists, Victor Hugo, Jack London, Marx, Rousseau, Leo Tolstoy and Voltaire.

Death
On her last May Day in 1941, Parsons accompanied the Farm Equipment Workers' Organizing Committee as guest of honor. At the age of around 91, she died in a house fire on March 7, 1942. Her long-term partner George Markstall returned to find the building on fire and was unable to rescue her; he died of his injuries the next day. Parsons had spoken to Ben Reitman about her funeral and drawn up a will in 1938, leaving the house to Markstall and upon his death to the Pioneer Aid and Support Association. Her will was declared invalid, and the building was sold for $800 in 1943. The fire had destroyed part of her library, but many books remained undamaged; when a friend went to the house to save the books, he discovered that only burnt copies remained. He asked the police where the library had gone and was told the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) had taken it. The FBI denied any knowledge of the books and when Reitman asked the head of the Chicago Red Squad, he was told the FBI had them; the books were not recovered. Years later, a signed copy of William Morris' The Signs of Change: Seven Lectures with the dedication "To Lucy E. Parsons, from William Morris, Nov. 15th 1888" was put up for sale, bearing stamps from the Library of Congress and the FBI.

A memorial service for Parsons and Markstall was attended by 300 people on March 12. Reitman spoke, calling her "the last of the dinosaurs, that brave group of Chicago Anarchists." Parsons was buried in the German Waldheim Cemetery, where the Haymarket Martyrs Monument stands. Voltairine de Cleyre and Emma Goldman are also buried there.

Legacy
Fellow activist Elizabeth Gurley Flynn remembered Parsons as a passionate speaker and revolutionary. As philosopher Ruth Kinna notes, Parsons has historically been referred to primarily as the wife of Albert Parsons, yet she was in fact a "talented writer, orator and organizer in her own right". Until Ashbaugh's 1976 biography, Parsons was often only mentioned in footnotes: more recently coverage of her career has increased. She has been claimed by various left-wing groups as a figurehead and a self-managed social center in Boston was named after her.

Historians have criticised Parsons' lack of interest in the struggles of African Americans, with her stance reflecting a belief in the need for the working class generally to rise up against its employers, rather than appealing to the need for racial equality. One explanation is that since she denied her own black heritage, she focused more on class struggle. As a result, she did not work with the contemporaneous black Chicago activist Ida Wells-Barnett, nor the National Association of Colored Women and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Historians have also focused on the question of Parsons' specific political affiliations, while at the time labels were more fluid and Albert Parsons wrote: "We are called by some Communists, or Socialists, or Anarchists. We accept all three of the terms."

Parsons is one of the historical figures depicted in Annalee Newitz's science fiction novel The Future of Another Timeline, part of which is set in Chicago in the 1890s. The Chicago Park District named a small area on Belmont Avenue the "Lucy Ella Gonzales Parsons" park in 2004, a decision which was opposed by the Fraternal Order of Police. In 2022, a new housing development in Logan Square, Chicago with 100 percent affordable units was named the Lucy Gonzalez Parsons Apartments.

title: Lucy Parsons


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Talk:Croissant

Origin, yet again
I just reverted an edit that changed the place of origin from France to Austria, but now I'm second guessing myself. After looking at this talk page and googling a bit, I'm now wondering if place of origin should be removed from the infobox altogether, since there will never be a consensus on the question. Leschnei (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Why removed from the icon picture
I don't know why you remove the picture of crossiant and coffee, because this picture is have the crossiant Geoffreyrabbit (talk) 13:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

No mention of the Croissant in Mexico?
I was reading the article and I'm a bit saddened by the complete lack of mention of the Mexican version of the Croissant. Zero. Zip. I was wondering if any of the people who wrote here have stumbled on anything about Mexico and Croissants in their research. There is more history on the Croissant out there, and it likely happens around the 1860s (same time period as US Civil War).

I was raised in Mexico and knew (as common knowledge) that the sugar-glazed version of the Croissant is part of a repertoire of pastries imported into Mexican cuisine, likely between the two French Interventions (invasions) in the 19th. C (both happening after Mexico's independence from Spain in 1821). Other pastry examples which were imported and adapted to Mexican cuisine are the Vol-au-vent (known as "Bolovan" in Mexico), and the Palmieres (known as "Orejas"), both involving puff pastry. According to the very few foodie websites (mostly Mexican) that I've seen talk about it, these pastries were definitely present in Mexico before 1870 if not earlier. By the way, since you mention it, "Continental Breakfast" is also considered typical-Mexican and similarly attributed to be a French cultural import.

The "Cuernos" (horns) as the Mexicans call the Croissant, is popularly assumed to have been brought by Prince Maximilian of Austria a/k/a Emperor Maximilian I and his wife Carlota of Belgium, during the 2nd French Intervention in Mexico of 1861-67 (multiple articles for all of these subjects are found in Wiki). Whether French or Austrian in origin, I guess it probably doesn't matter, because Emperor Maximilian was Austrian, Carlota was Belgian, plus the invading force was French - so you have three "vectors" for the pastry to come into Mexico, so to speak.

Most importantly, Empress Carlota was famous for bringing in teams of French and Hungarian chefs to "modernize" Mexican cuisine at the time - this is the part of French food legacy in Mexico that is actually written in history text books you study at school.

According to at least one website, it's also possible these pastries came during peacetime sometime between 1821 and 1867, just like pancake Crepes did ("Crepas"), as a wave of Europeans - mostly Italians (pastries) and French plus a few Germans (beer)- immigrated to Mexico looking to establish business ventures and new fortunes.

Unfortunately, finding sources for this material, while not impossible, is a bit hard, because the sources on the period tend to be written in Mexican foodie websites (i.e. non-academic), and usually history text books (the easy sources you can find) don't talk about specific food dishes, so before I could even dare to write anything concrete on French-Mex puff pastries, I have to go out and hunt for my sources to back up the information I've known since I was a child. Perhaps find some Mexican cookbooks of the period?

Hence I'm just writing this entry to raise awareness of the issue, and to perhaps see if any one here wants to contribute and pick on the subject (some erudite foodie history buff out there among you?).

Thanks in advance,

JW

2605:6000:EF4D:2100:8B6:BD62:A4A:D8F3 (talk) 09:10, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

"Spanish"?
There is a section simply named "Spanish", as opposed to all of the related subsections, which contain country names. This is presumably a typo? Should this be changed to "Spain", or "Spanish-speaking countries"? Thanks.

Kiril kovachev (talk) 16:49, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Ingredient functionality during processing
I'm all for sharing and increasing the sum of human knowledge but this section seems to be excessively detailed. Do any other bread/pastry pages go into this level of detail? There is something faintly comical that this section on its own is almost as long as the complete history of the croissant and its regional variants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.138.180.194 (talk) 11:42, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * sometimes sections are better-developed than others. This is the way an open-source encyclopedia works. It shouldn't be viewed as "comical", just an artefact of different Wikipedia volunteers having different areas of interest. -  Julietdeltalima   (talk)  20:34, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree that different sections may develop at different rates.
 * However, in this particular case, I rather agree with the commentator. There is too much detail, much of it not specific to croissants. We should slim down this section. --Macrakis (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Removed commercial brand and non pertinent info
I removed: The croissanterie was explicitly a French response to American-style fast food, and as of 2008 30–40% of the croissants sold in French bakeries and patisseries were baked from frozen dough.

 * You explained this removal with "'La Croissanterie' is a brand, and it has no place in a non commercial article."
 * Actually, there is no prohibition at all on mentioning notable companies and brands in WP. In fact, it would be a gross omission to not mention, e.g., McDonald's in the hamburger article. In any case, the point was about French fast-food croissant bakeries in general, which have become an important part of croissant production and consumption in France. The particular chain just exemplifies that; I have slightly reworded the article to make that clearer.
 * At the same time, you removed the information about the current state of croissant baking in France, with no explanation at all. --Macrakis (talk) 20:32, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Croassant frantuZesc
? 2A02:A58:8646:FF00:A457:93C0:E041:F8BF (talk) 11:38, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Austria
The origin is only France. The article states that the croissant was born in France when the brioche dough of the Austrian kipferl was changed to a croissant dough. 213.208.157.120 (talk) 13:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Hello Woodlandscaley,
 * Could you explain your point of view ?
 * I read the following in the article:
 * "''The modern croissant was developed in the early 20th century when French bakers replaced the brioche dough of the kipferl with a yeast-leavened laminated dough.
 * The birth of the croissant itself...can be dated to at least 1839 (some say 1838) ... in Paris.
 * The French version of the kipferl was named for its crescent (croissant) shape.''"
 * This clearly states that the Croissant is from France, born in Paris. 213.208.157.121 (talk) 14:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think anybody is arguing that the Croissant is French.
 * However, its origin is in Austria - which is why editors take umbrage when that significant part of its heritage is removed from the 'infobox'. Woodlandscaley (talk) 18:12, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply:)
 * There is no Austrian origin but a pastry created in France copying the shape of an Austrian product. The infobox should reflect that.
 * There is already a separate article for the Kipferl, and this article is about croissant (The birth of the croissant can be dated to...1839...in Paris")
 * The creation of the croissant happened in Paris as said in the article. 213.208.157.54 (talk) 08:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Until 1900 it was the same as kipfler in shape and consistence
 * So the double origin is right 79.41.217.183 (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Before 1900 the Croissant did not exist. Only the kipferl existed. Kipferl= brioche dough; Croissant= puff pastry. This innovation happened in Paris, then kipferl=Austria ; Croissant= France. 213.208.157.55 (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I also agree that he kipferl is a different thing. The current article make confusion between the two products (kipferl and Croissant). If there is a separate article for the kipferl, this article should focus on croissant.
 * Then, the origin is not Austria. Paris is the place of birth of the croissant. As you said the Croissant is characterized for its puff pastry which is something that was created in Paris. 83.64.26.78 (talk) 11:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I bring some elements from the Oxford Companion to food, which state that the croissant is French and that the Austrian origin is a myth:
 * "The bending of a little roll into a crescent shape, as probably happened in various parts of the world at various times, does not constitute the invention of the familiar, puffy, buttery croissant. There is more to the croissant than shape."
 * "In fact, the croissant in its present form does not have a long history. See culinary mythology for the erroneous idea that it came into being in Vienna in the 17th century"
 * "The earliest French reference to the croissant seems to be in Payen's book Des substances alimentaires published in 1853."
 * "Yet no trace of a recipe for croissants can be found earlier than that given by Favre in his Dictionnaire universel de cuisine (c.1905), and his recipe bears no resemblance to the modern puff pastry concoction; it is rather an oriental pastry made of pounded almonds and sugar. Only in 1906, in Colombié's Nouvelle Encyclopédie culinaire, did a true croissant recipe appear."
 * "This story seems to owe its origin, or at least its wide diffusion, to Alfred Gottschalk, who wrote about the croissant for the first edition of the Larousse gastronomique (1938)."
 * "In fact, the world-famous croissant of Paris (and France) cannot be traced back beyond the latter half of the 19th century, at the very earliest. The first relevant mention in any dictionary definition of the word was in 1863, the first recipe under the name 'croissant' (but describing an oriental pastry) in c.1905, and the earliest recipe which corresponds to the modern croissant in 1906." Goralero (talk) 22:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 * @Woodlandscaley what are your arguments to say croissant is Austrian ?
 * I see that some points are already discussed here. The croissant is French, the Austrian origin is a kind of legend. The name viennoiserie doesn't mean Viennese, they are also a French invention. Like Chinoiserie are not Chinese but European. The connection with Austria comes from the influence of Zang who introduced the kipferl to France. But the creation of the croissant took place in Paris.
 * Users (213.208.157.120, @Macrakis, @Goralero) I see that you have been talking about this question. I think the Austrian origin should be removed from the info box especially after consulting the Oxford companion to food that explains that the origin is France and how the Austrian origin constitutes a legend published first in Larousse gastronomique. 179.49.5.218 (talk) 16:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no arguments to say the croissant is Austrian. It's French.
 * However, it's origin is Austrian.
 * Yes, you've cherry-picked a source to support your argument. But the vast majority of sources on-line state Austria as the origin.
 * This has been argued to death over the years - with a compromise of including both France and Austria as countries of origin.
 * Although loaded with bias, simply google "croissant origin Austria" - and I think you'd agree that it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no Austrian influence in the creation of the croissant. Woodlandscaley (talk) 17:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Paris is not in Austria and the creation of the croissant happened in Paris. Kipferl is Austrian and it is distinct enough to the croissant to have its own page, so there is no reason to let Austria as an origin. Influence is not origin. Otherwise you can put that tacos al pastor is from Arabic countries and not from Mexico. There are a lot of examples like this. And the Oxford companion to food is not a random source, it's one of the most serious reference for culinary History and they have debunked this story of Austrian origin. 45.70.56.229 (talk) 23:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * All sources agree that the kipferl contributed to the history of the croissant. But it is not a croissant. So the question is how to interpret the term "place of origin". I don't think there's a clear line. For some reason, pot pie gives its origin as England, although pies of meat in pastry certainly existed before that elsewhere. A compromise might be something like "Place of Origin: France (with Austrian antecedents)" or something. --Macrakis (talk) 16:22, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Macrakis for contributing. All the dishes have antecedents, I gave the example of Tacos al pastor which is Mexican but with antecedents in Arabic cuisine. We can also think about Italian Ragù which comes from the French Ragoût, even the name is the same but the place of origin is marked as Italy.
 * The croissant and the Kipferl are two separated things, otherwise we would have only one article in Wikipedia. And the croissant is clearly a Parisian creation. The shape comes from the Austrian kipferl but how it is written in the Oxford companion to food "there is more to the croissant than shape". Even the contribution of Zang happened in Paris. Austria is the place of origin of the Kipferl but not the croissant. 45.70.56.229 (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I wish "otherwise we would have only one article in Wikipedia" were true, but sadly because of national pride etc., we often have multiple articles about fundamentally the same dish. I tend to be a "lumper", so in my judgement, döner kebab, shwarma, and gyros are variants of the same dish and really belong in the same article. The real "splitters" might even have different articles for döner kebab in Turkey and döner kebab in Germany.... --Macrakis (talk) 18:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @Macrakis I totally agree that Gyros, Kebab and Shawarma should be grouped in one single article. But for the croissant and kipferl, the recipes are different. One is laminated (croissant), the other is not. Actually kipferl is closer to a brioche and except for the shape, it has little to do with the croissant.
 * I found quite clear the explanation of Oxford companion to food and think we should take it as the reference. They explain that viennoiseries in general are French and that the myths around the croissant are not true (sometimes created by the ottomans or to celebrate a victory against them, sometimes in Hungary, Austria or Poland, brought to France by Maria Antoinette... and so on). The only facts that we have is that the first recipes of what we call a croissant appeared in France in the late 19th or beginning of the 20th century.
 * That's why I ask to consider serious sources instead of sticking to popular legends and change the origin in info box for only France. 45.70.56.229 (talk) 19:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * We agree. --Macrakis (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Macrakis 45.70.56.229 (talk) 21:01, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The Austrian Kipferl is no doubt significant and influential, but in reading the article it seems pretty clear that the creation of the Croissant occurred in France. The fact that the ingredients are different also suggest that while the two are similar, they not the same thing.  Otherwise every food baked from dough and flour should acknowledge its origins in Mesopotamia or earlier civilisations. The place of origin is, unusually for a food, documented and known.  Paris, France, around 1840s.  And the infobox should say that. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 17:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you @Escape Orbit, every dish has antecedents but as itself the croissant was created in Paris. I make the change. 157.100.142.132 (talk) 20:11, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The source is clearly: the kipfler aas created in 1300 and directly inspired croissant 79.54.217.132 (talk) 00:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * And there is already a separate article for the Kipferl. Here it's the article for croissant. 2800:430:1384:A210:1B:F0FF:FEB5:3CB1 (talk) 00:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * croissant is just a french world for crescent 79.54.217.132 (talk) 00:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * This article is not about the word, it's about the pastry. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Which was the same as the kipfler until 1900.
 * By the way, that reasoning should be applied to other products similar to kipfler then? 79.54.217.132 (talk) 12:00, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The consensus here is clearly that the croissant is a French variant of the kipferl, so its place of origin is France. You need to stop citing consensus in your edit summaries when your edits go against it. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 09:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's origin is as important as the undisputable fact that it is a French pastry. Cornsimpel (talk) 09:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Ha. I wasted my time looking at and copying the Oxford Companion to Food. Legends need to be mentioned of course, but origin is French. Doug Weller  talk 11:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Is it? The source mention the name in 1853 when it was still similar to kipfler, which by the way existed since 1300 79.54.217.132 (talk) 12:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Add English pronunciation
Can somebody add English (US/British if they are different) pronunciation? this is English language Wikipedia. I can’t figure out how to make the text look the same as for the French pronunciation. 78.115.148.30 (talk) 14:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. This information was in a previous version of the article, but a single-edit anon removed it and somehow this was never undone. --Macrakis (talk) 22:17, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

2800:430:1384:A210:1DF:3D5E:E406:953 (
This user is interpreting sources instead of using them and did it in other articles too The sources clearly state the "croissant" is a name from crescent appearing in 1853, that it started with the same pastry as the kipfler, changing only in 1900. It's not enough to eliminate references to Austria 79.54.217.132 (talk) 11:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Yes, I'm 100% with you.
 * User 2800:430:1384:A210:70CD:6FF:FE33:9661 seems to have an 'agenda'!
 * Also uses different IP addresses to evade 'edit warring' and after starting with Croissant, has moved-on to different targets.
 * Viennoiserie is the latest article to have Austria scrubbed from history - which will come as a shock to many established culinary writers and historians the world over!!
 * Loves to cite the Oxford companion of Food as if it's gospel and the only 'source' in the public domain, riding roughshod over other sources which don't fit his/her narrative.
 * As for a consensus on the Croissant talk page...this guy's commented numerous times under different aliases, swinging the count in their favour!
 * 2800:430:1384:A210:70CD:6FF:FE33:9661
 * 45.70.56.229
 * 179.49.5.218
 * 157.100.142.132
 * 2800:430:1384:A210:1B:F0FF:FEB5:3CB1
 * 2800:BF0:16D:C1A:B406:CF89:72B9:13A7
 * 2800:BF0:16D:C1A:1DF:3D5E:E406:953
 * All with an IP address in Quito, Ecuador.
 * It all seems a bit suspect. Woodlandscaley (talk) 13:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I don't understand how someone can take him(her?) seriously when he/she uses only the part of the sources that confirm his bias but ignore the rest, which I pointed out in the comment above
 * I'm not even saying the infobox should only have Austria, having both France and Austria was perfectly in line with the informations in the article (before he started to change it)
 * Also, he changed it BEFORE reaching a consensus, which I assumed was a big no no 79.54.217.132 (talk) 15:14, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

 * The Oxford Companion to Food is an excellent source, although I agree that it should be complemented by other sources. And it is not "in the public domain"! --Macrakis (talk) 15:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, but you cannot extrapolate only the part that interest you. Goes for any sources of course
 * And yes, there are other sources in the page I think are worth consideration 79.54.217.132 (talk) 16:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

A question about origin
I have a question about the origin of the pastry. When we go to the Hawaiian pizza page we say it's Canadian and not Italian, so why do we have trouble saying the croissant is French? I want to understand the reasoning behind it because nobody seems to agree with the origin here. Terao56 (talk) 08:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Because it's not. It's the same as the Austrian kipferl. I mean, on cappuccino page we say it's both Austrian and Italian, why do we have problem here to add Austria? 62.211.180.100 (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Croissant


text:
Talk:Environment of Hong Kong

Untitled
I am not quite sure why you put this nice info here, because it's called ECOLOGY.

Ecology n [singular uncountable] the way in which plants, animals, and people are related to each other and to their environment, or the scientific study of this

Geography n [singular uncountable] the study of the countries, seas, rivers, towns etc of the world

IMHO, it would be better if you move the article to, let's say, Geography of Hong Kong.

One more thing: I truly believe that climate is studied by geography.

webkid 17:00 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Mind you, climate is an abiotic factor in an ecosystem. =) --Jerry Crimson Mann 14:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Examples of Ecosystems in Hong Kong
This section currently reads like a long guide to ecological biomes and niches. Much of the content does not refer to the ecology of Hong Kong specifically. A cleanup is needed here! Carson 06:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Some sections of this article, as currently constituted, appear to slant somewhat toward an activist point of view, as well as lacking citations. neither is ideal for an encyclopedia. Those sections ought to be rewritten and more carefully researched. JWut89LA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.203.97.195 (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 21 April 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved.  Natg 19 (talk) 00:17, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Ecology of Hong Kong → Environment of Hong Kong – I've been looking at User:The Transhumanist/Lists by country/Ecology of x, and this article is the only one which does not redirect to "environment of". Instead, Environment of Hong Kong redirects here. I suggest we standardize it and rename this article to Environment of Hong Kong. See also. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:59, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Support as a sensible proposal. The use of "ecology" in this manner is more common in romance languages, but isn't that common in English. RGloucester  — ☎ 16:37, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Support, sounds reasonable. SST flyer 07:47, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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William E. Trautmann

William Ernst Trautmann (July 1, 1869 – November 18, 1940) was an American trade unionist who was the founding general-secretary of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) and one of six people who initially laid plans for the organization in 1904.

He was born to German parents in New Zealand in 1869 and raised in Europe. After completing a brewing apprenticeship in Poland, he worked as a masterbrewer in Germany before being expelled for labor activities under Bismark's anti-socialist laws. In 1890 he moved to the United States, where he joined the Beer Brewers Union. Trautmann was a key figure in the United Brewery Workers' Union in Milwaukee and the editor of the United Brewery Workers' German-language newspaper, Brauer Zeitung. He was expelled from that union for his participation in the founding IWW convention. In 1905, he joined with other industrial unionists to found the Industrial Workers of the World. Between 1905 and 1912, he mostly worked in the field as an organizer. In 1912, he broke with the IWW leadership over strike tactics and the alleged misuse of funds collected for the "Bread and Roses" strike in Lawrence, Massachusetts. In 1913, Trautmann joined the so-called yellow IWW created by the Socialist Labor Party, which later became the Workers' International Industrial Union (WIIU), as a "full-time propagandist."

In 1922, Trautmann published a novel, Riot, drawing on his experiences as an IWW activist during the Pressed Steel Car Strike of 1909 in McKees Rocks (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania).

Early life
Born in New Zealand into a German-American miner family in 1869. His father died when Trautmann was four years of age. When he was 14 he and his mother moved back to Europe where he worked as an apprentice to a brewer in Poland. At this brewery he had to work as many as hours as his brewmaster told him. It was during this time that Trautmann was exposed to the radical labor ideas that would become his life's work. Trautmann worked throughout Eastern Europe before settling in Germany. In Germany he was a vocal supporter of workers going through the same abuse in the brewing industry that he had gone through. In 1890 he was forced to leave Germany under the new anti-Socialist laws, which marked him as a dangerous radical. He decided to move to the United States as he already had family there. He moved to Massachusetts and continued to organize labor. He was very active in the United Brewery Worker Union. He was also very vocal against the American Federation of Labor, who he saw as being too conservative and not looking out for the interest of the worker.

Time in IWW
Trautmann was one of the founders of the Industrial Workers of the World. He helped write the Industrial Union Manifesto, one of the IWW's founding documents. While in the Industrial Workers of the World Trautmann worked as an organizer, propagandist, and for some time as secretary-treasurer. He was much more known for his essays than for his administrative skills. His works include One Big Union, Why Strikes are Lost & How to Win, and Industrial Unionism: The Hope of the Workers. He was thrust into a leadership role with the resignation of Eugene Debs from the union, and while he was a skilled writer his administrative skills were lacking. He could not keep a record of the members of the union (that is both the individuals and the different local branches of the IWW), and at the 1906 IWW convention, it was discovered that Trautmann had not been keeping a financial record for the entire year.

His start in the IWW was also met with turbulent times. He failed many of his first attempts at organizing strikes. He switched his tactics to target primarily Eastern European immigrants, since he was also one. This lead him to the McKees Rocks strike, a strike in a steel town of Pennsylvania. Trautmann tried to keep the protests peaceful, but soon violence erupted. Five state troopers were killed, and Trautmann was arrested. Thousands of workers threatened to riot if he was not released, and their demands met. Eventually the factory operators met the workers' demands and Trautmann achieved his first labor victory.

Trautmann was also a part of the schisms that happened during the 1910s in the IWW. In 1906 Trautmann, and his allies Vincent St. John, and Daniel DeLeon found themselves at odds with the President of the IWW, Charles Sherman. Sherman had a more conservative view (as far as unions went) and many in the IWW feared that he would allow the union to become more of an AFL type. Some members thought that Sherman would try to work within the confines of the capitalist system rather than trying to change the system as many in the IWW were trying to do. Trautmann and his allies were a proponent of "direct action", the use of strikes and sabotage to achieve the aims of the union. The Trautmann faction was able to rally enough to support to outvote Sherman and his supporters, and were able to take control of the IWW.

With an even greater leadership role in the union Trautmann was soon seen as being out of his depth. He was replaced as an administrator by St. John. This allowed Trautmann to be a field organizer, a job that suited him much better. He was involved in the Lawrence Strike of 1912. Despite its success Tratumann no longer believed that the direct action approach of the IWW was the right idea, and in 1913, after a brief stint in DeLeon's Yellow IWW, he left the union for good.

Post IWW Life
Trautmann wrote a historical novel entitled Riot that was based on his experiences organizing the McKees Rocks strike. He abandoned radical politics and wrote America's Dilemma in which he said, "Millions of toilers are today agreed that not capitalism, not the employers of labor as a class, are the enemies of the workers so much as those who, claiming to spring from the ranks of the proletariat, have become the apostles of corruption, the promoters of crime, the fomentors of chaos and destruction." He instead promoted peaceful labor reform, eventually ending up in Los Angeles where he worked on his autobiography and a New Deal highway project until his death in 1940.

title: William E. Trautmann


text:
188th Armored Brigade (Israel)

The 188th "Barak" (Lightning) Armored Brigade is an Israeli armoured brigade, subordinate to Israel's Northern Regional Command. The emblem of the Barak Armored Brigade is a red-bordered rhombus bearing a sword against a blue and white background depicting the Haifa coastline. The brigade has a long history beginning before the foundation of the State of Israel.

In 1990 the brigade was the first to adopt the Merkava mark-III main battle tank, phasing out its older Centurion tanks. The brigade is now phasing out the mark-III tanks and by the end of July 2020 will be using only mark-IVs.

History
The brigade was formed as the 2nd Brigade during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when it was split off from the Levanoni Brigade. Named the Carmeli Brigade because it was led by Moshe Carmel, the brigade was an infantry formation operating in northern Israel. It played an important part in Operation Hiram. After the IDF was formed, the Carmeli Brigade became its 18th Brigade.

During the Sinai Campaign of 1956, the brigade was stationed along the Jordanian border, in case the Jordanians decided to open a second front, and so was not involved in combat. It was shortly later assigned armoured units to become the 45th Armored Brigade, also known as the "Barak Armored Brigade". It consisted of one tank battalion, two armoured infantry battalions, a mortar battalion and reconnaissance units. The changeover was completed in 1962.

During the Yom Kippur War, it played an important role in defending Israel's border against the Syrian attack in the southern Golan Heights. 112 soldiers were killed in action, including the brigade commander. The brigade was almost destroyed. The main Syrian attack at 2:30–2:50 PM, confronted by the newly positioned 74th Tank Battalion, under the command of Lt.Col. Yair Nafshi. Nafshi moved his battalion position 1.5 km forward from its previous defensive position, a maneuver that saved his men and machines from the Syrian artillery barrage.

His was the only remaining tank force, equipped with 36 Israeli modified Centurion tanks to fight the Syrians for 3 continuous days until reinforcements and reserves were moved into positions. His battalion was reinforced with a tank company from the 53rd battalion. After 4 days of fighting, his battalion was reduced to 5 operational tanks. More than 102 soldiers and officers died defending the southern Golan Line, from reinforced points (bunkers) 107 to 114. For his gallant, professional, and courageous behaviour during the war, Yair Nafshi received Israel's second-highest decoration, the Medal of Valor. He retired from the army with the rank of Brigadier General.

During the battle, Lieutenant Zvika Greengold, who had arrived unattached to any unit, fought off attacks with his single tank until help arrived. "For the next 20 hours, Zvika Force, as he came to be known on the radio net, fought running battles with Syrian tanks—sometimes alone, sometimes as part of a larger unit, changing tanks half a dozen times as they were knocked out. He was wounded and burned but stayed in action and repeatedly showed up at critical moments from an unexpected direction to change the course of a skirmish."

After the war, the task of rebuilding the brigade was assigned in part to Yonatan Netanyahu who took command of Battalion 71. In the 1982 Lebanon War, it fought in Beirut and participated in the capture of the local airport. Today, the brigade is part of the 36th Armored Division, the largest regular-service armoured division in the IDF.

During 2014 Gaza War, the unit saw deployment in Gaza City.

During the 2023 Gaza War, the unit saw deployment in Bureij.

Brigade organization 2024

 * Hativa188.PNG 188th Armored Brigade "Barak"
 * 53rd Armored Battalion "Sufa/Tempest" (Merkava Mk.4M)
 * 71st Armored Battalion "Reshef/Flash" (Merkava Mk.4M)
 * 74th Armored Battalion "Saar/Storm" (Merkava Mk.4M)
 * 605th Armored Engineer Battalion "Ha-Mahatz"
 * Logistics Battalion "Barak"
 * Reconnaissance Company
 * 358th Signals Company "Lightning Arrow"

List of Carmeli Brigade operations in the 1948 Arab–Israeli war

 * Operation Ben-Ami
 * Operation Dekel (one battalion)
 * Operation Hiram
 * Operation Misparayim

List of villages and town battles the Carmeli Brigade fought

 * Al-Nahr
 * Al-Ghabisiyya
 * Al-Sumayriyya
 * Al-Tall
 * Al-Kabri
 * Al-Mansura
 * Haifa (the Arab quarters)
 * Umm al-Faraj

Memorial
The memorial is situated in the Golan Heights at Road 91 near the entrance to Nahal Gilbon and the former Syrian village Aleiqa. It is inscribed with a verse from a Hebrew song, citing Jeremiah 17:8: "A person is like a tree planted by water, seeking roots."

title: 188th Armored Brigade (Israel)


text:
Wikipedia talk:Non-English Wikipedias/Homepages

This page is badly outdated. Could we delete it ? User:anthere


text:
Talk:Apple Daily

News
You should not be putting other newspapers here... put them into the "Newspapers of Hong Kong" page. (Fuzheado 17:14 15 Jul 2003 (UTC))

Agree with Fusheado!!! Also, the description about "popular" or not is a bit subjective..........

Oops, we don't want to be unpaid tutors of undergraduate students. :P Wshun

 * Don't worry, they will be out of your hair in a few days. Although I do wonder whether students have ever used Wikipedians to surreptitiously help in editing their assignments.  :) (Fuzheado 05:04 16 Jul 2003 (UTC))

Is its name The Apple Daily or Apple Daily? If the is in the title then it has to be in the title here, eg The Irish Times, Irish Independent. FearÉIREANN 05:06 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * There is no such word for "the" in the Chinese language. I went to their website and couldn't find an "official" English translation. --Jiang

 * I believe Apple Daily is correct, though since it is a Chinese only publication (and Chinese does not have "articles") it's hard to be certain. However, all the English language press in Hong Kong cite it as Apple Daily so I think the move is a good one. (Fuzheado)

As for "corporate logo" concerns, the flag of a newspaper (ie. the newspaper name/logo seen on the print publication) seems a legitimate addition. One, it is not blatant advertising and 2) does provide a function since not everyone can read Chinese. So it at least shows the title in Chinese and the colorful look of the paper, which it is famous for. (Fuzheado)

I dont believe it is a copyright violation to use a corporate logo when describing or referring to the corporation. Certainly, if a corporation complains we can remove the offending image. Pizza Puzzle

 * No its a trade mark infringement, under Hong Kong law. This is a registered trade mark being used without permission. It shoudl be removed, immediately.-David Stewart 14:06 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Since I'm coming from the US, perhaps you can explain the HK law to me. In the US, this would clearly fall under fair use, under Fair Use Clause of Section 107 of the amended Copyright Act of 1976.  In US law, not only is this non-commercial use, but the law explicitly allows for product comparison and news reporting, even in commercial use.  If CNN does a news report about Ford's quarterly earnings, they can use Ford's logo in their graphic, without Ford's permission.  See EFF's Chilling Effects for reasons why this is a good thing.  Perhaps the HK law explanation would be good additions to Hong_Kong_copyright_law and Hong_Kong_trademark_law. (Fuzheado)

Hong Kong doesn't have jurisdiction over the wikipedia anyways. Pizza Puzzle

 * Really? You haven't read my article on Gutnick v Dow Jones, then. Jurisdiction is no boundary for internet-based torts in the common law world.

 * There is no fair use defence for trade mark infringement. Product comparison was only introduced as of 4 April 2003, and even then I would think you are not allowed ot use another trade mark in doing so, but only mention the other product by name. Copyright has a fair dealing exception under the Copyright Ordinance Cap 528 which is extremely limited when compared to fair use in the US - academic publications and criticism fall under it. But even if you could say that we are suing a regsitered trade mark for the purposes of academic publication, we'd still be infringing the trade mark. Wikipedia earns no profit, so it'd be damages at large - a sufficient deterrent to stop other people from doing it. And because I've now written this, if we keep them up and for example Apple Daily (a fairly litigious newspaper, represented by Deacons, one of Hong Kong's largest law firms)decides to sue, then they'd be entitle to flagrant (punitive)damages. And yes, I am a Hong Kong copyright lawyer. - David Stewart 15:10 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If Apple Daily has an issue, they can feel free to contact the wikipedia. Pizza Puzzle

 * I'd hope instead that the Wikipedia acually feels compelled to obey the law and protect and respect intellectual property rights. - David Stewart 03:03 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

In this instance, no newspaper on earth unless run by imbeciles would ligitate, or be anything other than happy that they are getting coverage in a massive internationally read encyclopædia. . Wikipedia is a non-profit organisation that it not abusing the image but is simply giving the newspaper worldwide free publicity of the sort that would cost tens of millions if it had to be bought, by providing an article accompanied by a logo. Any media organisation stupid enough to take offence and treaten court action would face a public relations calamity. Anybody in PR would tell you that their advice to the company in question would be "don't be idiots". If they made an issue of it, they would open themselves up to ridicule with every rival publication and probably get themselves international coverage that would do them horrendous damage. I have worked in public relations and anyone who has would tell you that the advice would be not only not to sue, but to say "thanks for the article. Here is a better image of our logo and as much factual information as you need. Anytime you need more, call me that this number. Thank you very very much for the coverage." For they would know that the coverage would increase readership from visitor readership from people who had seen the article and then saw the newspaper and had the potential to increase native readership among those who had never bothered to pick up a copy before but might just having read about it.

I write for a number of newspapers. One of them, when they discovered they were on wiki, were not merely happy; it was mentioned at the editorial conference, with the deputy editor informing people "we have made it into a major net encyclopædia". When they discovered I contributed they offered access to any of their photographs, but as they could not release them under the GNU licence that offer could not be accepted.

The logo in this case is a clear case of fair use and any publishing house would be stark raving mad to take offence because of the positive benefits that could flow from the recognition, and the massive ridicule and damage that could result if they were insane enough to complain. Media companies more than almost anything else rely on their reputation in the business and unless run by absolute imbeciles would run a mile from making themselves a laughing stock in the industry by complaining about getting worldwide free coverage in one of the net's biggest encyclopædias. In fact any newspaper group I have dealt with would pay and pay handsomely to get an entry into a world wide publication. Your worries, David, are groundless. And as Pizza said, if they were stupid enough to complain, the image could be pulled in an instant. FearÉIREANN 03:49 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Of course Jtdir, in my heart I agree with you 100% :) Then again, I'm also sensitive to getting to the truth and learning about the implications of publishing Wikipedia on a global scale.  For David, I have this: Not wanting to sound argumentative Re: Gutnick vs. Dow Jones.  But, do you think the nature of the case being defamation had a crucial role in the case being pursued and ruled upon across borders, as opposed to, say, copyright or trademark?  Systems derived from the English model have, to be polite, "lower" thresholds for defamation than what this American is used to.  The agreed upon laws of trademark and copyright seem to have more international harmony than those of defamation.  In the U.S. you must prove "intent" to do harm and "reckless disregard" for the facts.  (BTW, I find the Wikipedia entries for English defamation law severely lacking, or simply missing!) (Fuzheado 03:59 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)){{subst:image source|Image:20051012 07.jpg)) Betacommand {{sup|(talk • contribs • Bot)}} 23:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

{{missing rationale2|Image:20051012 07.jpg

Tabloid
If you live in Hong Kong, then you certainly know Apple Daily is one the top 3 best selling newspaper. I have found someone labelled it as tabloid. It is tabloid-style, but not tabloid. The definition of tabloid is a small newspaper company, and I daresay Apple Daily doesn't fall into the tabloid category. OhanaUnited   Talk page   07:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

These days, when someone calls a newspaper tabloid, they're not necessarily referring to its format, but its content. Tabloid papers tend be sensationalist and lack journalistic integrity and that is what is usually meant when labelling a paper tabloid. Herbert Xu 13:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

 * tabloid can refers to the paper format, tabloid can refers to the tabloid journalism. Company size does not matter. The Sun of UK is published by a big company. Matthew hk (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Use a Cantonese romanisation for Hong Kong articles
I've changed the romanisation from Mandarin (Pinyin) to Cantonese (Yale). This is a Hong Kong newspaper so the Mandarin pronunciation is fairly irrelevant. (For those not familiar with the Chinese language situation, it would be like giving the British English pronounciation for Barstow,_California at the top of its wikipedia page). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.139.235 (talk) 21:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Apple Daily (2020-09-13).svg

"Traditional Chinese tabloid"
Tabloid or not, it should read "tabloid (or newspaper) writen / typeset in Traditional Chinese script." Most people with no background knowledge will think that "Traditional Chinese" is a language, when it's not.

"Western governments"
Is the Japanese government (which has criticized the police raids) a "Western government" as used in the lead section? feminist (+) 13:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Since there is no response, I assume there is no objection to removing "Western" from the description of governments. feminist (+) 01:50, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You raised a good point. No objection. STSC (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

"9.6 million monthly unique visitors in Hong Kong" is twice the adult population.
"9.6 million monthly unique visitors in Hong Kong" is twice the adult population of Hong Kong. I don't see this in the WSJ source. Delete? Keith McClary (talk)

 * People checking the website on different devices (e.g. home computer, phone, work computer, etc) would register as unique visits. The WSJ source says: "Apple Daily’s website had about 9.6 million monthly unique visitors in Hong Kong and a print circulation of more than 86,000 copies, according to the most recent filings from the paper’s Hong Kong-listed publisher." Citobun (talk) 02:47, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @Citobun The "archive" link does not include that. Keith McClary (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Appledaily.jpg

Fake news
As a Hong Konger, Apple Daily has proven to have a ton of fake news trying to destroy the governments reputation. Should I show examples and should this information even be mentioned? I'm new to this. 182.239.117.149 (talk) 08:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

AI generated fluff
After the site was shut down, it was bought by a Serbian DJ/blogger who turned it into a sit with AI-generated material. (according to Wired and NPR) Kdammers (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Alt-right
It is inappropriate to put "alt-right" in infobox. Just because some regressive liberals in the U.S. or the U.K. advocate for Islamists, they do not consider them "Islamists". The fact that Apple Daily advocates for Trump and uses racist rhetoric about the Chinese does not mean that they are "alt-right". Apple Daily is referred to by many sources as China's "liberal" media. ProKMT (talk) 07:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Apologies for the error. The fact remains though that the protesters caused permanent damage to their own cause by allowing Apple Daily to influence their thinking. Jimmy Lai also brought his oppression on himself for worshipping on Trump's alter though, and I think this article should point that fact out. WakeFan1991 (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I also think Hong Kong's "liberal" Apple Daily is more of a fake news representing the American far right conservatives. However, Apple Daily is not Hong Kong's conservative. In ROC (Taiwan), Taiwanese nationalist leftists use McCarthyistic and anti-Chinese racist rhetoric more than pan-Blue conservatives. A liberal in country A can support a conservative in country B, but that doesn't mean liberal in country A is a conservative in country A; the regressive liberal in the United States could support the Islamist far right, and the regressive liberal in Hong Kong could support the American far right. ProKMT (talk) 05:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Apple Daily and the Hong Kong pro-democracy camp brought their oppression on themselves by depending on a conman (and now a convicted criminal himself) like Trump to help come and save them, and it completely backfired. That said, the Chinese government ought to be ashamed of themselves for using that as an excuse to annex HK. WakeFan1991 (talk) 13:24, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please remember to respect no synthesis of published materials. OhanaUnitedTalk page 13:28, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, the new description of "conspiracy theories" in the second sentence needs citations. Such a claim requires proportionate use by reliable sources of high quality, saying in their own words that the publication was known for conspiracy theories. Refquotes would be helpful. I added a tag. Llll5032 (talk) 02:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Apple Daily