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Talk:Sword-and-sandal

Definition of the genre?
I've heard of Ben-Hur, the 1960s Cleopatra, Spartacus, etc, being called "sword and sandal", but this writeup seems to exclude those? Stan 03:31 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I've never really seen the phrase used of anything but a low-budget Italian picture. They obviously relate, at least as homage.  You also could get some spill-over from loosely Biblical stuff from the same period; you mention Ben-Hur; a film like The Silver Chalice might conceivably also count.  I guess it strikes me as a bit of a stretch to define the genre in such a way that includes The Ten Commandments as well as Hercules Versus the Moon Men.  -- IHCOYC 04:23 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I'd never thought about how an official definition might read. I guess if I had to make up something, I would say "characters from ancient times heroically acting according to 20th century mores". I've never seen or even heard of (that I remember) any of the low-budget Italian flicks, but I have heard "sword-and-sandal" used by critics, as a generic pejorative for any pre-medieval flick. Stan 06:02 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * IMO "Sword and sandal film (Hollywood)" or something to that effect needs an article, badly. Great respect to the folks who did all the Pepla research and writing here, but I only got here in the first place because I wanted a list of the Quo Vadis -> Cleopatra Roman/biblical films of the 50s and early 60s; it never occurred to me this wasn't the original or exclusive sense of the phrase.  If the term was originally meant for Pepla that's certainly valid but it's at the very least become commonplace in North American pop-culture in the sense of that specific (Anglo-American) film craze.  Here it's essentially preambled that, "no, those are period films (no wiki article)" which is a bit jarring.

 * As a result there are also lots of misleading misdirects, probably by people who didn't read this. (IE, the article on Cleopatra, "The arduous process and enormous cost of completing Cleopatra resulted in the end of the sword and sandal epic.)

 * Maybe just disambiguate? 142.167.180.221 (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The page just needs to be retitled as it describes the peplum cycle rather than the sword and sandal genre. Dirk2112 (talk) 01:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I think if we change the title as Dirk2112 suggests, it would be very difficult to justify the inclusion of several films listed here that take place in various post-Dark Ages periods without, however inadvertently, making a case that applies to spaghetti Westerns as well (this has been in my mind for some time; it took Dirk to inspire me to post it). The four Sandokan pictures, set in the "late nineteenth century," two of which don't feature a body-builder type in the lead, seem particularly problematic in this connection. The other two of those star Steve Reeves, which makes leaving out his Italian-made oater, A Long Ride from Hell, quite difficult. Don't misunderstand me, I concede that we don't want to count those. However, if we define the genre as some people on this page insist (with "cheap" and "Italian-made" as far more important terms to it than "ancient Greco-Roman setting and/or musclebound demi-god as hero"), we will be hard-pressed to avoid it. I honestly feel that Ray Harryhausen's Jason and the Argonauts, which actually features Hercules as one of its characters, and George Pál's Atlantis, the Lost Continent are more within the genre than the aforementioned Sandokan pictures, or Reeves' Morgan, the Pirate, co-helmed by Hollywood director André de Toth! --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

 * The term "sword and sandal" refers only to low-budget, cheesy European take-offs of the big budget Hollywood Period or Biblical films. Since these low-budget Euro-films are meant to imitate Hollywood product, the category obviously cannot include the actual Hollywood films which they attempt to emulate. The term is used in a denigrating fashion, to put down the European films as inferior (in other words, to define the films as nothing more than a bunch of guys with swords and sandals). Hollywood films set in Greco-Roman or Biblical times or the Middle Ages, etc. are classified as period, or Biblical, films, and certainly deserve their own wikipedia entry (perhaps under "Hollywood period films"). The reason Steve Reeve's Sandokan films are included (and not his spaghetti western) is because the Sandokan films are set in primitive, barbaric times in a society very similar to that found in the peplums (ie: pirates using swords and bows and arrows). The peplum encompasses films of varying ages and periods (not just the Roman era per se), so long as the characters use swords and sandals (Romans, pirates, Biblical characters et al.)(Frank Verzyl) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.74.32 (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, well, well, Frank Verzyl is back. And with a new definition to eliminate non-Italian cheapies. Since Ursus in Quo Vadis was depicted as a very strong mortal man rather than a demi-god (or semi-god), he hardly counts as an inspiration for this genre, which in the modern sense began with the Steve Reeves-starrer Hercules. Furthermore, Italian Maciste films pre-date the "big budget Hollywood Period or Biblical films" you cite as such by decades, in the silent era in fact. The "late nineteenth century" setting of the Sandokan films is no more or less a "primitive, barbaric time" than the US Old West. As for swords, genre historian Stephen Flacassier correctly criticized Lou Ferrigno's frequent use of the weapon in Luigi Cozzi's Hercules as out of step with the original films, and inspired by Conan the Barbarian. Therefore, they are not inherent to the definition. The non-Greco/Roman set pictures that definitely fit this genre feature a muscleman (usually if not invariably Maciste in the original Italian version) dressed in what Flacassier called the "skirted brief" of the Greco/Roman set films (worn by charcters other than the beefy heroes there) and quite anachronistic in these others, which he also admitted. Repeatedly asserting the Italian origins and cheapness are part of the genre's definition doesn't back it up, and it doesn't appear to be correct on the face of it. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Brycedavid (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2013 (UTC) The term 'Sword and Sandal ' does not refer to 'low-budget, cheesy European take-offs of the big budget Hollywood Period or Biblical films'. Obviously the person or persons who manage this page know nothing about the genre. The term 'Sword and Sandal' was coined by the popularity of Arabian adventures made in the 1940s, including Arabian Nights or Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. Since then the term has been used to describe every type of film including big budget Hollywood films. And the content on this page contradicts the page itself by listing only 'cheesy European take off of Hollywood films' and say they are Peplum but then only call the page Sword and Sandal. How can a 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films' happen when the genre was basically re-booted in Europe in the late 1940s? Fabiola was released in March 1949, before any other film made in Hollywood, including Samson & Delilah or Quo Vadis? (which, btw, was made in Italy). Fabiola included big spectacular scenes in a Colosseum which were re-used in Hollywood released films like Androcles and the Lion. Other films with spectacular scenes followed including Sins of Pompeii and Messalina (1951) all made before or at the same time as Quo Vadis? and the other Hollywood films made afterwards. Theodora - Slave Empress (1954) featured the first chariot race since the silent era, 5 years before Ben-Hur (which, btw, was made in Italy) and I guess according to the logic of this page, Theodora - Slave Empress is a 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films'. How can Hercules be a 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films' when there were no Hercules films made in Hollywood before the Italian one? How can Maciste films be a 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films' when Maciste is a strictly Italian hero from Cabiria which continued during Peplum explosion after the success of Hercules? The logic behind the reasoning taken from this page doesn't make any sense at all. The term Peplum was coined by French film critics and the term is mainstream there. The term is all inclusive, from Arabian adventures to big budget Hollywood films to 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films'. It was even used by a French film critic at Le Monde to describe the $250 million Hollywood-made John Carter and yet this Wikipedia page categorically refuses to accept the French definition of a Peplum, you know, the ones who actually use the word today and have popularized it. Several French books on the Peplum genre were written and they all include big budget Hollywood films. "Le peplum l 'antiquite au cinema" shows two big budget Hollywood films on its cover. There's another book, 'Le Peplum' which I have and it lists films like Quo Vadis and the Ten Commandments. So the term Peplum, according to the French, is all inclusive. The decision to exclude many films, including big budget Hollywood films, from either terms 'Sword and Sandal' or 'Peplum' from this Wiki page simply reeks of elitism and condescension. A Wikipedia page should be objective and this one is certainly not. If this page wants to list ONLY Italian-made films of the Peplum genre, several of which were not 'low-budget, cheesy European take off of Hollywood films' but films unique to their culture since it's part of their history not Hollywood's, than there are several corrections to be made, including the title of this page but the listing on this page doesn't wholly match the terms 'Sword and Sandal' or 'Peplum' because it's excluding too many titles and it is too narrowly defined.

Peplum?
I was looking for information about peplums - "a flared ruffle attached to the waist of a jacket, bodice, etc". So why the hell was I redirected here? 81.19.57.146

 * Peplum is probably taken from the Latin meaning "robe of state." In film costuming, it refers to those over-the-shoulder tunics worn by Hercules, et. al.  It's a kind of stereotype now, so much so that mainstream films like "300" have guys wearing Peplum-type costumes.  In actuality, most Greeks wore the Khlamis (mantle), a simple garment suited for their hot, dry climate.  Problem is, the Khlamis really doesn't leave much to the imagination -- it's a shortish mantle worn without underwear.  The Ancient Greeks had no problems with male nudity, but modern American audiences won't stand for it.  Oydman 03:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Mexican sword and sandal films?
In the cinema museum in Mexico City's Chapultepec Castle, there are posters and stills from Mexican-made silent films that patterned themselves after the Italian films of that same era but which used Aztec settings as the Italians had used Greek and Roman settings. Any information about this?

Intro Quote
Shouldn't the line below it read "Captain Oveur (played by Peter Graves) ..." Lars T. 22:53, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Period Films vs. Peplum
I'm not really clear on the concept of peplum, but to me Sword and Sandal refers to the escalating series of high budget pictures starting around Quo Vadis ending around the The Fall of the Roman Empire that the studios used to showcase new technology and spend a lot of money. I'm going to add a paragraph to that effect, if someone more qualified can change this assessment feel free, but these pictures must fall under some heading.

 * The difference is that films like Quo Vadis, Sparticus, Fall of the Roman Empire, Cleopatra, etc. were PERIOD films produced by big studios with name actors and real budgets.  Peplum refers to cheap Italian genre films, often with a burly bodybuilder as the lead.  The big Hollywood Period Pictures of the 50s and 60s were more often than not based on popular historical novels (or the Bible), while Peplums ripped off various bits of classical mythology and whatever else they could think of to cobble together a plot.

 * You can really spot the cheapness of the typical Peplum film. I've seen several Italian-made films of this type, and I believe they all rented their costumes from the same costume place.  Many helmets look the same from film to film, for example.  They also dub the dialog in ways that range from comical to merely poor-quality.  Many studios didn't bother to record background sound, so there's music, dialog, and maybe a Foley effect or two during swordfights.  Peplum directors were also known to rip off other Peplum films if somebody came up with a cool shot.  They say a mob rushing the gates of Troy was later (flipped horizontally?) used as people fleeing from Pompeii.  Whatever saved a few lire.

Oydman 03:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup Tag
Article needs formatting help. Capitalizations, list formatting, wikilinks, shorter section titles. -- Stbalbach 11:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

 * It also needs massive reorganization. How much about these Italian flicks do we need to know?  They should probably have their own article. --Bobak 23:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

 * They have their own article here! The peplum genre refers only to Italian-made sword-and-sandal films that were originally shot in the Italian language and later dubbed in English for distribution overseas. If the film was not originally an Italian film, it should not be on this page at all! I don't think the people commenting realize that the peplum is a uniquely Italian genre.

Modern S&S
Regarding the section below, this seems like Original Research. Anyone can say any film they want is a "S&S" film. Lord of the Rings? No way. It's really not up to us to decide, it needs to be sourced.

In my opinion, the list looks good save for LotR, the Merlin films, and Pathfinder.

After the revival of historic epics in 2000 by the Ridley Scott film,  Gladiator, sword-and-sandal films became a big hit, and many followed in the wake of its success. Some of these include:

 *  300, Zack Snyder, Warner Bros.
 *  Alexander, Oliver Stone, Warner Bros.
 *  Attila, Dick Lowry, Universal Studios
 *  Cleopatra (1999), Franc Roddam, Hallmark Entertainment
 *  Gladiator, Ridley Scott, DreamWorks
 *  Helen of Troy, John Kent Harrison, Universal Studios
 *  Hercules, Roger Young, Hallmark Entertainment
 *  Jason and the Argonauts, Nick Willing, Hallmark Entertainment
 *  King Arthur, Antoine Fuqua, Buena Vista Pictures
 *  Kingdom of Heaven, Ridley Scott, 20th Century Fox
 * The Last Legion, Doug Lefler, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM)
 *  The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema
 *  The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema
 * The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema
 *  Merlin, Steve Barron, Hallmark Entertainment
 * Merlin's Apprentice, David Wu, Hallmark Entertainment
 *  The Oddyssey, Andrei Konchalovsky, Hallmark Entertainment
 *  The Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson, Newmarket Films
 *  Pathfinder, Marcus Nispel, 20th Century Fox
 * Rome (TV series), John Milius, HBO
 *  Spartacus, Robert Dornhelm, Universal Home Entertainment
 *  Troy , Wolfgang Petersen, Warner Bros. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stbalbach (talk • contribs) 19:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

 * For the record: Peplum was CHEAP.  These films were done for the merest fraction of what the big Hollywood Period Epics' budgets.  Sets were generally simple: a couple of columns, a throne, and some guards made a throne room set.  Much of the action took place out in the woods or a grassy field.  A battle scene might have a couple of dozen stuntmen and last five minutes.  LOTR or Gladiator are FAR beyond the scope of Sword and Sandal.  If a true Peplum film were possible today, it would be filmed in Romania or a former Soviet Republic and star someone like Dennis Wolf, 2005 World Amateur Bodybuilding Champion.  Unfortunately, these type of low-budget films generally go straight to DVD.  Give me 2-3 million and I'd make a film worthy of the Peplum name with him!  http://www.dennis-wolf.de/gallery_cover.html

 * "Peplum was CHEAP." So what? The vast majority of horror films have been too, but that doesn't mean The Exorcist shouldn't be considered one. Budget is not part of this—or any—genre's definition. --Ted Watson (talk) 19:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The peplum genre refers to mainly Italian-made movies that were filmed in Italy in the Italian language, and were later dubbed in English (much the same way that the phrase "spaghetti western" refers only to those low-budget westerns filmed in Italian that were later dubbed in English). I don't think the people who are trying to include these Hollywood and/or British movies into the list understand that the peplum is not just a film about the Roman era, but that it must be an Italian-made film that was originally shot in Italian. The budgets of the films have nothing to do with it, nor does the subject matter. Roger Corman's ATLAS might possibly be includeable since it was filmed in Athens, Greece on a shoestring budget and starred Michael Forest (who later appeared in many, many Italian movies), but certainly not Hollywood or British films such as CLASH OF THE TITANS, GLADIATOR or Liz Taylor's CLEOPATRA. That would be like including Clint Eastwood's "UNFORGIVEN" on a list of spaghetti westerns simply because it is a western. Peplum refers only to Italian-produced films that were shot in Italian language and later dubbed in English for distribution overseas --User: Frank Verzyl  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.74.237 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Funk and Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary: genre--"A category of art or literature characterized by a certain form, style, or subject matter." Sorry, but no mention of language or national origin; besides, it is my understanding that these films, plus European Westerns and horror films, are done with no sound equipment at all, so they weren't "filmed in Italian" but have all dialog tracks recorded in post-production. As for your example of Unforgiven, you are going the other way, as spaghetti Western is a sub-genre of the major Western genre, eliminating your claim. Sorry, but while the two Harryhausen pictures, Pal's Atlantis, and Gladiator may technically not qualify, they are relevant to the article, as none of them is "just a film about the Roman era" (which many pepla aren't, anyway), but are fantasy-adventure films tying into the ancient Greco-Roman mythology, which does characterize many of them. The Liz Taylor Cleopatra is more of an historical soap opera, so definitely doesn't belong here, any more than any filming of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar or Shaw's Caesar and Cleopatra. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, the spaghetti western is a sub-category of the Western film genre, just as the peplum was the Italian sub-category of the Period film. That helps my case, it doesn't contradict it. If you want to create a page that includes all of the films ever made that pertained to ancient history or Greco-Roman history, then create one. But the peplum entry should only pertain to "true peplums" (low-budget Italian-made historical fantasies) and not be stretched to include big budget American or British period films, because those films were not peplums! Also not all Italian films were filmed silent. There are many Italian films that exist today only in Italian because they were never dubbed in English. Many Italian films were filmed without much regard for the on-the-set sound recordings being pristine, true, because they were generally later released in so many different languages, most of them had their soundtracks drastically fixed up or corrected in the editing stage. But 90% of the actors were speaking Italian while the filming was being done. The American or British leads may have been speaking gibberish or counting to ten;  this was true of many Japanese films that starred foreign actors as well --User:Frank Verzyl   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.187.206 (talk) 02:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, indeed, Peplums and all the rest were filmed silent. In fact, dubbing was the norm in the Italian film industry up until about ten years ago.  Most actors just spoke their native language on set or simply counted an appropriate number of beats for their line out loud in their native tongue.  "Uno, dos, tres..."  Some actors came back to help dubbing in the languages they were fluent in, some did not.  Some actors, like Terrence Hill, were really helped by others dubbing them.  Anyway, you do raise a valid point about what language we should credit them to.  I've always considered Italian to be the "native" language since a)it was the once guaranteed to get dubbed and b)it seems more effort was spent on the Italian dub in many cases.  Of course, neither criteria I've given provides a clear cut answer for any film, but hopefully it provides the beginning of a framework to discuss this. Monkey Bounce (talk) 02:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Retitled "Goliath"
Since the Steve Reeves vehicle we know as Goliath and the Barbarians was so titled in the US because its distributors wanted to evoke his Hercules films, but Joseph Levine claimed to own that hero's name (BTW, this is the first I've heard that), wouldn't that also be the solution to the supposed mystery as to why The Revenge of Hercules was released here as Goliath and the Dragon? And shouldn't the article reflect this, or at least not imply there's no suspicion of it? Ted Watson (talk) 21:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Samson Burke
The text referred to "...Italian muscleman Samson Burke...." but both the IMDb and the booklet by Stephen Flacassier listed in the bibliography say he is Canadian, hence my revision. However, I have seen two films with "him," The Three Stooges Meet Hercules and his Ursus entry, and they do not seem to be the same man. Note that Ursus is dated 1961, and Stooges a year later. But in the earlier film he sports a great deal more beef, looking more like an over-steroided fugitive from the bodybuilding contests of the post-Arnold Schwarzenegger/Lou Ferrigno era, than the Steve Reeves look-alike in Stooges. Furthermore, the latter looks a great deal more than one year older. How and why would--or could--he lose so much muscle in such a short amount of time? As "Ursus" is clean-shaven while "Hercules" is bearded, I can make no truly definite statement about the facial features, but they do seem dissimilar. I strongly suspect that "Samson Burke" is something along the lines of a house name, used by at least two different men, but I am not putting any such statement in the article.

BTW, there is one film not listed here (unless it's just a case of this one alternate title for it not being given), but which should be in either the "Gladiator" or "Other" list, and has quite a controversy attached to it. The only known English-language title is My Son, the Hero. For years, it was reported to have been dubbed with "comical" Yiddish accents, but in the early 1990s it turned up on TNT cable, with a typical dialog track. Subsequent commentaries (e.g., the Flacassier work) have said it never had such voices, but what other explanation is there for that title? I submit that there were objections when it opened, it was pulled, and eventually surfaced with the European English audio (I read somewhere a long time ago that the continent's cheap action/adventure flicks, whether they be these pepla, spaghetti/sauerkraut Westerns, crime pictures [e.g. Germany's Doctor Mabuse series], spy spoofs, or horror movies, had English-language tracks made over there, hence Mario Bava's Black Sunday has two, the official one and an alternate made by the US distributor). Does anybody have any information about this film to put in the article, as I no longer have my copy of the Flacassier booklet?

One other film suggestion: Roger Corman's Atlas (1961), starring Michael Forest, not to be confused with pepla star Mark Forest. It's just as deserving of mention as the Stooges film, if not more so, since it's serious. Ted Watson (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Explanation to the reports of comical dubbing of 'My Son The Hero": The US coming attraction and lazy so called film reviews are the culprits.  It was for the US coming attraction for the film that new, so called 'funny' voices were recorded.  Often labeled as 'Yiddish' or 'Jewish'.  The film was very hard to find for many years, but the coming attraction was out there in fan compilations.  So instead of tracking down the film to form a real opinion, they just based their entries on the coming attraction.  Another example is how many reviews stated the film featured statues that come to life, a scene in the coming attraction.  But you have to watch the film to know that the characters are hiding inside the hollow statues and burst out.  A bit different from them 'coming to life'.  The bad info was passed from one author to another just copying what others had written without checking it's validity. After a while, enough people had repeated it that the 'funny voice' soundtrack was believed to be fact, when it never existed for the real film. Not a case of outcry and objections that removed an offensive voice track, just lazy writers who found it easier to speard ignoracne that doing their job and getting it right. Stephen Flacassier 6/6/2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.62.142 (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Mr. Flacassier. I have been on a voluntary sabbatical from Wiki, hence my delayed response. However, I must submit that the existence of such a trailer and the film being released with an appropriate-to-that-approach-but-not-otherwise title are compelling evidence that the entire picture was prepared in that form, but not put into general release. Perhaps the US distributor had a firm release date commitment, and consequently not enough time to refilm the title, while they could throw the European-made, genre-typical soundtrack on the movie in place of theirs. I remember Roger Ebert and the late Gene Siskel re-reviewing A Rage In Harlem on their TV show because they had learned that the print which was shown at the critics' screening they had attended was not the general release version, and that the differences were substantial. Movies do get noticeably altered at the proverbial eleventh hour. Furthermore, my bottom line was that, regardless of the reality behind the "Yiddish dubbing" story, the film belongs in this article, and I was asking that someone who knows more of its specifics than I do, such as yourself, put it in. That request stands. Ted Watson (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

New section?--English language productions
After mentioning Roger Corman's Atlas (1961) in my inquiry about the possibility of at least two different men "acting" under the name Samson Burke, I have though about other films that seem to be of this genre but are USA or Brit productions, in English. Along with Corman's picture, The Three Stooges Meet Hercules and Hercules and the Princess of Troy (besides ex-Tarzan Gordon Scott as the hero, this unsold US TV series pilot featured such Hollywood figures as Diana Hyland and Paul Stevens) already mentioned in the article, there are: I had another in mind when I started, but I'm darned if I can remember it now. Anyway, does the idea of such an additional section sound good? Ted Watson (talk) 21:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hercules in New York (1970) with Arnold Schwarzenegger (billed originally as Arnold Strong, as the film also featured comedian Arnold Stang)
 * Jason and the Argonauts (1963), a Ray Harryhausen special effects feast set in the era of Greco-Roman gods (and Hercules himself appears)
 * Clash of the Titans (1981), Harryhausen again, and the same story & hero as Medusa Vs. The Son of Hercules
 * Atlantis, the Lost Continent (1961), a George Pál produced fantasy-adventure of the era

Is Barbarian Queen relevant?
I see that Barbarian Queen has been deleted from the list of "1980s" films again. I strongly recommend that the editors involved in this admittedly small scale edit war discuss why each thinks the way he/she does about it. I will point out that the article for the film itself says it takes place in the Roman Empire, as does the IMDb, which is at least the beginning of a strong argument right there. However, I have never seen the picture myself (I think), and merely ask the editors to discuss and settle their disagreement here. Ted Watson (talk) 22:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add to Ed's concern re: Barbarian Queen the whole list of 80s films inspired by Conan the Barbarian that featured female leads. Barbarian Queen 1, Barbarian Queen 2, Warrior Queen, the Xena TV series. Warrior Queen was set in Pompeii and was about the Roman's living there just before they got ashed. Xena features Rome and Roman characters in many episodes. I find my eyebrow rising at the fact that these CLEARLY sword and sandal movies and TV shows with female leads have gone unmentioned, while Ator 1-4 and every last pepla is included. What, somebody around here doesn't like girls?User:Pat Powers

The page is about the peplum sub-genre (which is sometimes referred to as sword and sandal in film reviews). The Xena TV series hardly qualifies as an Italian-made, low budget Italian movie, nor were the episodes originally filmed in the Italian language. "Barbarian Queen" was an American production filmed down in Argentina, which is in no way connected to Italian cinema. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.187.201 (talk) 03:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Heaven
I would remove this from the list. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.49.139 (talk) 10:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I checked the article on this film, and since you are not suggesting removing King Arthur as well, yes, I do object. Both or neither, no objection. Ted Watson (talk) 17:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say both. 62.47.47.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think people understand that "peplum" refers to Italian-made films. Read the peplum article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.50.216 (talk) 20:30, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

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References from Frank Verzyl
The explanation sentence about the references being "impeccable" is out of place on this page. The sentence is not needed and the actual sources need to be linked at the bottom. However I am reluctant to delete it myself until the person who originally sourced them can say who Frank Verzyl is and where the references actually come from. If he can be shown to be reliable then that would be more useful than just a deletion. Quoth 31 (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Uh...no offense but, sorry, I can't find this. At the end of the intro to the sub-section on the "Hercules series" there is indeed this parenthetical aside: "Filmography info on this page supplied by Frank Verzyl." I just can't find any other mention of him at all, let alone something about him (or any other source) being "impeccable," nor any indication in the History logs of such having been recently removed. May I ask where this is (or was)? (This is not to deny your point about a ref cite being infinitely preferable, of course; well taken.) --Ted Watson (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

 * The line that I thought was out of place is right above the parentheses "The information in the filmographies on this page were taken from impeccable Italian film industry reference sources which are much more accurate than the information found on imdb.com and fan websites. (Filmography info on this page supplied by Frank Verzyl)" As I say I can't see any reason why this should be on the page.Quoth 31 (talk) 09:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

 * You are quite right, my apologies. A check of the History listings for this article indicates that virtually all of the initial and substantial work here was done by anonymous IPs. Whether "Frank Verzyl" is the name of one who shows on a particularly large number of those entries or was meant as the IP(s)'s information source is completely unclear. Is this man an "Italian film industry source" or someone who had access to such? As I indicated in other threads, some of this information is suspect: Were there two different muscle men using the name "Samson Burke"? Is the film known in the USA as My Son, the Hero represented on these lists under another title or completely unacknowledged? To the latter question, if the claim of "Italian film industry sources" is indeed correct, then it should be here under its originally intended English-language title (as probably seen in the UK/Ireland, South Africa, Australia/New Zealand, with the conventional dialogue track heard when TNT aired it in the early 1990s, the only time I have ever encountered the film itself), but none here seems likely to be it. Indeed, another quick check, this time of the IMDb, lists My Son, the Hero as Arrivano i titani (1962) (lower case initial letters theirs), with two other English titles (for a total of three), Sons of Thunder (UK) and The Titans (USA!). Two second-rate muscle men-actors are listed in the cast, Giuliano Gemma and Serge Nubret (while this article currently does not mention either of them, each is discussed in the Stephen Flacassier booklet listed in the "Academic bibliography"); just try and find this film here. Hence, I say the info is suspect (but admittedly, the IMDb's attributing The Titans to an American release is itself suspect). Let's hope someone comes forward about Veryzl, and soon. --Ted Watson (talk) 20:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

 * As further note, I can't find Frank Verzyl on the internet anywhere, and he doesn't appear on the Italian version of this page. Do you know if the information that is attributed to him is correct? Is there another source that can back up the information? Either way I'm going to take out sentences that refer to Frank. The original person can either explain who he is here or post a link to his information, or other sources need to be found. Quoth 31 (talk) 08:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I have noticed that My Son... has been added to the "Other..." list. Thanks to whomever. I have also noticed four postings here (in various threads) "signed" User:Frank Verzyl! Obviously, he did it totally incorrectly, as that is red every time and each also has a 'bot-added IP sig to the supposedly "unsigned" post. One of these has an entirely different IP number from the others, but is not significantly removed by date (all January of this year). He is, in fact, the person who has been insisting that "low-budget" and "Italian-made" are parts of the genre's definition. So now we know that Frank Verzyl is just another Wiki-editor. --Ted Watson (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

"Samson series" sub-section
Do the five films stated to be a "Samson series" actually qualify as one? I know that Hercules, Samson and Ulysses actually features a version of the Biblical figure, and Stephen Flacassier's booklet includes another one that I'm not certain is here. According to him (I no longer possess my copy) it was a comedy and its characters included several other of these main heroes, if not all of them; according to him it had a scene with Delilah giving him the famous haircut. The list of characters in the title ...Invincibles would seem to make it a prime candidate to be that one, but IIRC, Flacassier attributed its official English title, Samson and the Mighty Challenge to another film. Neither Samson vs. the Pirates nor Samson vs. the Black Pirate seem at all plausible suggestions, and Samson doesn't seem likely either. Can anybody answer these questions, please? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

 * "Samson and the Mighty Challenge" was the alternate US TV title for "Hercules, Samson, Maciste and Ursus: The Invincibles". That's the film you're thinking of, featuring Delilah and the haircut, and it was a comedy.  The 5 Samson films are grouped together as a series because they were the only films made in Italy intentionally to be "Samson" titles, even though the character was very different from film to film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.50.216 (talk) 20:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Hercules derivatives—two more?
I think that both Hercules and the Princess of Troy, a made for US TV series pilot, in English, and Hercules the Avenger, described as footage from two other Herc films re-edited (and implicitly re-dubbed) to make a new movie for US TV release, should be in the "Derivatives" sub-section, as both fall short of being legitimate feature films, each in its own way. However, since the latter actually has an original Italian title, which translates directly as Challenge of the Giants and is completely different from the US release title, that description is certainly called into question. I cannot reconcile the existence of an original Italian title at all, let alone one so different in meaning from that of the US release, with the described origins. Anybody got any ideas about either or both of these? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Since the show was never picked up, "Princess of Troy" was distributed to US TV as a movie, and "Avenger" was released in Italy as a movie ("Sfidi dei Giganti") and on US TV as a movie under the title "Hercules the Avenger". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.50.216 (talk) 20:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Artificial Maciste film?
The last film entry on the Maciste list contains a parenthetical aside which reads: "This Maciste film was made up almost entirely of re-edited stock footage from two older Maciste films, Maciste contro i mostri and Maciste contro i cacciatori di teste." Since the first is listed here as starring Reg Lewis and the second Kirk Morris, how is this possible? I've seen both of these, and the first seems to be set in prehistoric times while the latter is in the South Seas, possibly even post-Roman Empire. The idea of a new film constructed out of these two (assuming that the given US release titles are actually theirs) is very difficult to believe. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, Maciste keeps switching back and forth between Kirk Morris and Reg Lewis, and it is very disconcerting, but I guess they didn't think anyone was paying attention -- --FVerzyl] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned comment added by 71.190.50.216 (talk) 20:09, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Lord of the Rings
Listing Lord of the Rings as sword-and-sandal? Are you kidding me, LotR is high fantasy. If you want to put in everything with swords and mystical beings then you might as well put every fantasy book and movie in the sword-and-sandal list. In the meanwhile I'll be listing the Mona Lisa as a scientific theory. 80.60.87.138 (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

This page should be protected

 * Padlock-dash2.svg Not done: requests for changes to the page protection level should be made at Requests for page protection. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Sons of Hercules
The Sons of Hercules series was an Embassy Pictures TV package, not American International Televison. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.84.187.57 (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Come out 71.190.53.202 and talk
Hi 7, you've removed the categorisation edis of sword and sandal which would be informative to those seeking films on a particular epoch of history. Just why have you done this? Come out and fight!Foofbun (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing this page or you will be reported to wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.53.202 (talk) 22:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Trim and tidy" of the intro
Hi, just gave this a pretty severe trim. A couple of points to consider before reverting any of what I've done - (a) The intro should be an overview of the article, (b) we generally avoid wikilinks and refs/cites. Note that a consequence of (a) is that we shouldn't have stuff in the intro that's not covered in the body first. (Oh, and there is no reason to mention "spaghetti westerns" in the intro - even once). - Snori (talk) 06:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sword-and-sandal


text:
Talk:Ibero-Caucasian languages

Old talk
(( See also Talk:languages of the Caucasus )) I have rewritten this page to make it clear that the proposed grouping of North and South Caucasian families is still only a conjecture with no linguitic evidence (i.e. there is no evidence that these four families form a genetic clade). Also noted that the name "Iberian" (historically identified with Georgia) has problematic political connotations. Jorge Stolfi 07:29, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Infact Colchis was Georgia, Iberia was to its east. I am not sure whether there is any historical evidence that Iberia was actually Georgian in Language. It is perfectably acceptable to talk about Transcaucasian Iberia as a geographical area just as we would talk about the Iberian penninsular. Basques, Portugese or Spanish are not upset by the application because it is from antiquity and no-one knows exactly who the Western Iberians were. Likewise the Eastern Iberians. I would object however to any attempt to sieze the term for one ethnic group (georgians) whithout the historical evidence to back this up. When this is the case the use of the term becomes tainted, even chauvinistic.Zestauferov 05:35, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, it is getting even more confusing... There may be one significant difference between the two Iberias, though. AFAIK, the name "Iberian Peninsula" has been used since classical times for the whole region, from the Pyrenees down, so it is accepted by all parties involved. However the Caucasian "Iberia", from what you say, never got to encompass all the "North Caucasian"-speaking regions -- or did it? If it did, wasn't Ossetia also included in it? Is there a record of when the Ossetians came to the North Caucasus? Jorge Stolfi 06:57, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Good question. As far as my current understanding is, the territory which is now Ossetia may well have been classified as part of (transcaucasian) Iberia (again I don't have access to my UK library right now) but certainly Kalmykia would have been far beyond (and did not exist until after the oirat migrations). Do any on the Iberian penninsular inhabitants claim to be the original Iberians and that the others came later? I think this would be upsetting to the others if one group does. The ossetians are Alans, but maybe Alans were originally native to the Caucasus. Indeed, how do we know that the I.E.Alan tribes were not the original Iberians and that the other tribes gradually siezed the (transcaucasian) Iberian territory? As for the Avar/Lezgi/Dagerstanis, if Tolstov is right they may well have come to the west from Khwaresmia in the 5thC, so can we really call them Iberians? Needless to say they would certanly resent the suggestion that they came from the east now even if it were true, since there are plenty of factions ready to take over Dagestan & attempt to push them out if it were true. It is impreialistic for outsiders to claim to have the soberness to sort out the history of a region whose inhabitants the same outsiders claim are incapable of being objective. Of course we should avoid original research but need to see a clear presentation of the original sources without any interpretation.

 * Transcaucasian Iberia existed according to ancient writers A, B, & C etc.. The term seems to have been used to cover an area roughly from parameters A to parameters B. Attested material culture includes A, B, C etc.. The term Iberian has been used in various designations (e.g. Protoiberian, Ibero-Caucasian, Hetto-Iberian) to refer to a hypothetical linguistic group linking the Basques, Etruscans, Pelasgs, Hattians, Circassians, Hurro-Uratuans, Vaynakh, Dagestanis & Georgians together for reasons A, B, C. Source 1 2 3 etc.

Something like that is sufficient. Any specific identifications of tribe names like Meshkhetians or Tabbals etc. should be accompanied by sources and appear under the appropriate sub-category. In this case are the Taibiri & Meshkhetians thought to be Georgians? then don't place them here put themunder Gerogians and mention the source for their classification there.Zestauferov 16:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There seems to be an edit war going on here. I understand that there are two competing claims:

 * there is an established language family
 * this language family is only theorized

and that additionally there is a debate about whether 'Iberian' is a word that should be used.

I think the former debate seems to be creating the major edit war. What to do to resolve this? Martijn faassen 19:35, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I wish I knew... All sources I have seen say that there is no visible connection between the north and south families. The "other side" claims that there are such connections, but has yet to explain what they are. (Many of the languages in the Caucasus are "ergative", but since that is a binary attribute, which is easily lost or gained, linguists do not consider it proof of a genetic relationship.) Jorge Stolfi 20:28, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

 * That indeed seems to be good reason not to state that there is such a language grouping as fact. What does the other side have to say? Any references that can be brought up to show that this group is more firmly established after all?

 * Note that the Levzur version of the article seems to contain some more information about the theory. It's currently an odd mix between saying that the relation between the phyla has not been established and POV statements about how outstanding a scientist Arnold Chikobava is. Unfortunately Levzur's initial revert after Jorge Stolfi's initial rewrite seems to have undone my minor NPOVing of the initial section in this parallel version...

 * I really think we should be doing something about these articles that are evolving in parallel. This flip flopping of one article one day, the other the other day is really not helpful for anyone. I think the next step now is for Levzur to say something about this here. Martijn faassen 21:14, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I believe that most of the valid linguistic information that was present in Levzur's version is preserved in other pages, e.g. languages of the Caucasus and the pages about each family. The ethnic information could fit in an article about peoples of the Caucasus, but the version that existed until recently was deleted for being deemed too POV and Georgian-centric (see User:Zestauferov/Iberian Problem). The population numbers provided by Levzur are ambiguous -- it is never clear whether they count speakers of X, "ethnic X" (whatever that means), biological descendants of people who once were X, etc. -- and usually disagree with the numbers given in other apparently impartial sources.  So that page would have to be rewritten by a competent and impartial anthropologist, if such thing exists.  (Sadly, the current political situation in the Caucasus is not favorable to impartial ethnic analysis by the parties involved, or perhaps by anyone else...) Jorge Stolfi 04:59, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Anonymous reversions
213.157.209.197 is Levzur, in case anyone's wondering... -- ChrisO 15:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

With all due respect, "Iberian-Caucasian languages" is not very good English. The appropriate form should be "Ibero-Caucasian languages" according to English word-formation rules. The article entitled "Iberian-Caucasian languages" should be renamed as (or moved to) "Ibero-Caucasian languages". The first reference in the article could read "The term Ibero-Caucasian (or Iberian-Caucasian)", but subsequent references in the same article should just read "Ibero-Caucasian". Furthermore, the reference to "Iberian-Caucasian languages" in the article "Languages of the Caucasus" should be changed to "Ibero-Caucasian languages". Also, I don't understand why there is so much strife over this term that the page has to be locked. The term refers only to a hypothetical grouping of languages, a "negative" grouping (i.e. based on the fact that its "member" languages are not members of any of the major language families around them), rather than a "positive" grouping. It is, in other words, simply a geographic notion. There is no substantive evidence supporting this grouping as a real language family, or superfamily, or even "phylum". Pasquale 19:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Odd, this page was supposed to be unprotected already. I guess it was just overlooked. Anyway, the reason this page was protected and that there's so much strife over it is because there's one particular user who went by the name of Levzur who is fanatically dedicated to making this and several other articles conform to his personal point of view, despite all attempts by others to fix problems with it. This happens from time to time here on Wikipedia, and when all else fails the user in question usually winds up being banned. Levzur's case is still being examined but in the meantime we've taken to temporarily banning him whenever he tries messing with these articles, so it should be safe to go ahead and edit now without fear of your changes getting lost in an endless edit war. Bryan 23:21, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * OK for the move, but note that the Arnold Chikobawa institute page (which according to Levzur supported the genetic relationship theory) uses "Iberian-Caucasian linguistics", so this version should be mentioned as an alternative. Jorge Stolfi 09:09, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ibero-Caucasian languages


text:
Streaming Transformations for XML

Streaming Transformations for XML (STX) is an XML transformation language intended as a high-speed, low memory consumption alternative to XSLT version 1.0 and 2.0. Current work on XSLT 3.0 includes Streaming capabilities.

Overview
STX is an XML standard for efficient processing of stream-based XML. Basic XSLT is not well suited to stream based processing, and STX fills this niche.

Conventional XML processing involves loading the entire XML document into memory for use. In contrast, SAX streams XML events such as "open element," "close element," and "text node" so that other software can begin interpreting information immediately, before the end of the file is reached. Unfortunately some software can't effectively use XML fragments this way and must build up the whole document to begin processing. So is the case with XSLT. Because XSLT's XPath can select any node throughout the document it must have the entire document available in memory.

STX only allows queries immediately surrounding the current node so it can quickly start transforming and outputting SAX event nodes as they arrive. As it can discard nodes immediately after processing, memory use is significantly lower than that of XSLT. Having a limited query scope is a defining characteristic of STX.

This architectural decision intentionally marginalises STX as a niche language. Indeed, it would be wrong to say that STX is a general purpose transformation language; however, if your transformation needs can be met by STX then it's an efficient and smart choice.

Specifications
STX's query language is called STXPath and is based on XPath 2.0.

Implementations of STX are available in Java and Perl.

Similar projects
Unlike STX which is declared using an XML syntax, these two projects associate SAX events with callback functions:

 * Xineo OAX
 * SAX Adapter

title: Streaming Transformations for XML


text:
FTX (disambiguation)

FTX is a defunct cryptocurrency exchange platform that operated from 2019 to 2022.

FTX may also refer to:

 * Fault-Tolerant UNIX, a Stratus Technologies operating system
 * FTX Games, an American video game publisher
 * Field training exercise, a type of military exercise
 * Toyota FTX, a make of car
 * Ftx gene, a non-coding RNA gene in humans
 * FtX (gender), a gender identity in Japan for nonbinary people born female
 * Owando Airport (IATA code: FTX), an airport in the Republic of Congo

title: FTX (disambiguation)


text:
HaXml

HaXml is a collection of utilities for parsing, filtering, transforming, and generating Extensible Markup Language (XML) documents using the programming language Haskell.

Overview
HaXml utilities include:
 * XML parser
 * XML validator
 * a separate error-correcting parser for HTML
 * pretty-printers for XML and HTML
 * stream parser for XML events
 * translator from DTD to Haskell
 * translator from XML Schema definitions to Haskell data types

HaXml provides a combinator library with a set of higher-order functions which process the XML documents after they are represented using the native Haskell data types. The basic data type is  which represents the document subset of XML.

HaXml allows converting XML to Haskell data and vice versa, and XML to XML (by transforming or filtering). The common use of the HaXml's parser includes defining the method of traversing the XML data and it has the  type (content filter), where. It means that this function defined by the user will take a fragment of an XML data and either return more fragments or none at all. This approach allows to choose XML elements satisfying certain conditions (e.g., tags with certain name or all children of a specified tag).

Example
In the chapter 22 "Extended Example: Web Client Programming" of the Real World Haskell by Bryan O'Sullivan, Don Stewart, and John Goerzen, the following example is considered. The XML file looks like this (simplified version):

The following content filter is constructed:

This filter is later used to get the title of the channel:

title: HaXml