text:
Talk:Star of India (ship)

Oldest-ness?
I coreected the statement that this is the 2nd oldest afloat. This may (uh, not that I know for sure) be the third oldest afloat) in the US (Constitution and Constellation), but it is not the second oldest afloat in the world. See HMS Trincomalee (1817) and HMS Unicorn (1824). There may be more, but I didn't spend much time researching it. 24.160.199.161

The article for USS Constitution says that *it* is the oldest seaworthy ship in the world. I'm in no place to judge the seaworthiness of a ship, but at most one of these pages is correct. - Molinari 20:18 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * The Constitution page should be fixed, probably my fault - ability to move under own power in a quiet bay on a calm day is not really "seaworthiness". Stan 21:55 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * According to the Constitution's events page, it was scheduled to at least leave port six times in 2006, which seems seaworthy enough. Obviously they only sail it in good weather, but I wager they only sail the Star of India in good weather, too. 207.171.180.101 02:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Photo
I'd like to post a photo of the ship though I need to ck on copyright laws... any guidelines? I took the photo... -- 00:24, 2004 Aug 31 User:DennisDaniels
 * Try Image use policy. Hope this helps. -- PFHLai 06:00, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)

Merge with Euterpe?
The articles for the Star of India and Euterpe are redundant, since they represent the same ship at different points in history. These articles ought to be merged into one. Willy Logan 05:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Agree - should be one article for the same ship. Either Euterpe (ship) is the lead article with a re-direct from Star of India (ship) or vice versa Boatman 11:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Agree - Star of India seems the most appropriate choice as lead article. Although this is not the ships given name, it is certainly the one by which it is currently best known (everyone who lives in San Diego knows it); this would also help avoid confusion with the Muse of Greek mythological fame.  joe

Good work on the merge. -Willy Logan 22:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Star of India - Incorrect information
Hello

I'm an Australian historian and by chance my Great Grandfather came from Liverpool UK to Sydney Australia with mother and brothers and sisters in 1883 on The Star of India. Which is my reference point. What I read when I read this article is I get a sense of several committed nautical types who know much about this ship as it is today. Perhaps not a lot about its Star of India time. Actually the sub-heading star of India, suggests the ship had it's name changed around 1901-04. So I am puzzled there as this ship like the famous clippers (Lightening 1850-60s Etc.) shows up almost annually sometimes biannually, on the migrant run to Australia in the 1880s and early 1890s. Which gives rise to my next perplexity. I believe the voyages to Australia not New Zealand were its main trade, as the current populations would suggest; four fifths of passengers were bound for Australia in the 1880s. This would seem to suggest that someone with a strong New Zealand connection has been responsible for many of the edits here?

The article title is rightly linked to the Star of India because of its main role carrying thousands of immigrants from England to Australia and New Zealand before settling into a role as a salmon transport. I guess it fits with the same MO of also having the British Trans-Atlantic liner The Queen Mary in San Diego. This MO never fitted with me until I read the heated and sometimes desperate debate that took place in the city back in 2000 over that ships preservation. So I don't really understand why these ships have ended up where they have but hats off to the city for doing the restoration work and both these ships would otherwise have ended their days like the SS United States. My last point is that back in 2000 I worked with people in Sydney restoring the "James Craig", originally named Clan Macleod, a 1874 iron hull barque.

It regularly sails out of Sydney and I wonder about the statement about this particular category of ships early in the article. Thanks David — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.191.31 (talk) 04:31, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

 * The Euterpe, as the ship was then named, was owned from 1871 to 1897 by the company Shaw, Savill and Company, which seems to have been primarily engaged in trade between the UK and New Zealand. In 1882 Shaw, Savill & Co then merged with the Albion Shipping Company, at the time the dominant British company in the New Zealand trade, to form the Shaw, Savill & Albion Line. Lubbock, B. (1921) The Colonial Clippers 34 MB download, see pp 346-365 of the original book; there is a brief mention of Euterpe on p 351 (which is p 477 of the PDF version) Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

where is the star of India located
where in the world is it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:F900:71C:D1F2:AA39:5378:A367 (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Star of India (ship)


text:
Talk:Shepard tone

Sample audio is kind of loud
compare with the sample audio on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_tone -- it might be worthwhile to run them through ffmpeg or audacity to cut the noise down a bit. The raw sine waves that are present are currently loud enough to damage hearing, I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian5v (talk • contribs) 09:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

"The illusion is more convincing if there is a short time between successive notes..."
This is a subjective observation and should at least include "citation needed." It's an issue due to a project I'm involved in to develop a Shepard Tone Variometer for radio-controlled model sailplanes, and is currently in dispute. -- "Miami Mike" on RCGroups.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.219.70.14 (talk) 14:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

wha???
"Infamously known for its fast 8th notes through out, its demented chord progressions, its lack of any set time or key signature and its so-called 'ffffffff' or 'octuple forte', Gyorgy Ligeti's masterpiece is one of the more challenging piano Etudes ever written on paper." <--- writing like this doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. "infamously", "demented", "masterpiece" and "ever written on paper" sounds just stupid. fanboish ascertions! how hard it is to play has got nothing to do with the shepard tone anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.211.123.13 (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Song Examples
The song Lonesome Tears by Beck on his Sea Change album ends with an orchestral Shepard scale. Jhayes94 00:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll let someone else decide if it should appear in the article or not, but it appears as if almost the entirety of the song "Teotihuacan" by David Byrne on the album "The Forest" is a elaborate Shepard scale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.168.238 (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think "Il y a" by the french experimental group Programme would fit the bill as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoiSUJbB4hM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.137.183 (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

There's the King Crimson song Vrooom off of the same-titled Album that has a nice and comprehendible shepard tone, accompanied by a descending chromatic scale, in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.226.153 (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

"Starla" by Smashing Pumpkins has this sequence starting about the 6:00 mark until the end of the song.

Attempted
I don't know about anybody else, but I tried this with a sine wave going from 440 Hz to 880 Hz, and ran it through a bandpass filter set at various frequencies, and I didn't get any sort of special illusion. -- Omeomi

 * Hear the audio example in the last extlink, and take a look at the animation to see what should be happening: a series of long parallel glissandos in octaves, put through a soft bandpass filter (or crossfaded into one another, effectively the same thing). -- The Anome

I guess...I still think the "scale" version is more convincing than the glissando one. It also seems like to use a bandpass filter, you would have to filter each scale/glissandi separately, and then mix them together. Crossfading seems like it would work well though. -- Omeomi

 * Omeomi, it makes no difference whether signals are added together before or after a linear bandpass filter. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

"Continous Shepard scale"?
Jean-Claude Risset, as I stated in the article, created a continous Shepard-like scale, so I am unsure if it is named, "the continous Shepard scale."-Hyacinth

What illusion?
'This auditory illusion can be constructed...' what auditory illusion? You don't explain this for the reader. -- Tarquin 09:02, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) Yeah, of course it can, thats how we can hear it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.144.146.43 (talk) 04:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Super Mario
Interestingly enough, Koji Kondo used a variation of this in the video game Super Mario 64, as background music for an infinite staircase. Here's an audio clip of the scale used in the game. --Codeman38 04:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This link is dead. Here's a Wayback link. -- Auric    talk  01:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Pink Floyd
Is the sequence of sounds at the end of Echoes, on Pink Floyd's Meddle album, another example of a Shepard tone? Thoughtactivist 00:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It's credited as one under the entry for this song. I always figured they had to get this effect by using tape delay, but I did not know what was going on with the tonal quality of the pitch change until reading this article. Spot on, and somehow knowing the mechanics of it doesn't cheapen the effect for me. 173.243.241.114 (talk) 03:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)Wolfdaddy74701

 * A Shepard tone might be part of the mix, but there's one prominent element in there that clearly is falling and rising again. To my ears, the Shepard tone, if it's there, is overshadowed. Richard K. Carson (talk) 05:48, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Bach's "Musical Offering"
There is an example of this in one of the canon's in Bach's Musical Offering. Grab the midi at Classical MIDI Archives. http://www.prs.net
 * Thanks, but the Musical Offering is about an hour long and is split into 11 pieces. Can you tell us what piece has the example? --Cluster 19:46, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You might know this by now, but according to Gödel, Escher, Bach, the canon "per tonos" has been rendered with Shepard tones. —JerryFriedman 05:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

my shepard tone
A year ago, I programmed this illusion. Do you think it could be interresting to upload this sound in commons and have a link to it in this article ? --Gloumouth1 23:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It can be done acoustically
The article said it was "implausible" but I did it with an acoustic guitar(nylon) http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=3145034&q=hi Drsmoo 23:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup
This page really needs to be cleaned up and clarified. Shepard tones (plural) or Shepard scale are a little different than the Risset tone. Shepard tones are separate, distinct notes that together give the illusion of constantly rising or falling without ever "getting there." The Risset tone, or barberpole effect, is continuous, and is a lot harder to generate because the separate octaves have to be in phase and their amplitude envelopes need to be logrithmic in order for the effect to work perfectly and for the listener not to hear separations in the tone. The psychoacoustic effect of the continuous tone, when done properly, is a lot more convincing (and disorienting) than the scale.Torc 21:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Does the article say they aren't different? Hyacinth 01:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The article makes a slight distinction, but calls one the discrete Shepard scale and the other the continuous Shepard-Risset glissando. Personally, I've never heard Shepard tones called the discrete Shepard scale anywhere but in this article.  It's almost always Shepard Tones for one or the Risset Tone, Risset Glissando, or Barberpole effect for the other.  "Continuous glissando" is a redundancy anyway.  The article also doesn't mention Risset's Suite for Fatman and Little Boy which was the first to feature the glissando or give any dates.  (I can add all this later myself.)Torc 02:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I've Seen All Good People
Does anyone know if the Yes song "I've Seen All Good People" uses a Shepard scale during the chorus at the end of the song as it fades out? Ratamaque 02:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably not, as the perceived pitch tends to fall, with no cycling apparent (to me). The timbre of Anderson's voice distinctly changes, and not for the better :).  However, the closing seconds of "Yours is no Disgrace" might be a rising one.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Search Results lead to this page?
Is it possible to have the search (or variations of) "never ending scale" lead to this page? Essentially, thats what this article is about. Currently, its about the fourth result down, and if someone looking for for such a thing didn't happen to recognize the name (I did), they may not find it. 24.198.80.214 06:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

cited
I thought it might be worth mentioning that this article has been cited by an "external entity". In a recent NPR video podcast called "Song Project", it shows some people looking up this article, then referring to a printout of the article, to better understand the Shepard tone while composing a song. linkity]. - 68.146.190.58 21:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

References to Super mario
Is the Youtube link to super mario really necessary? The effect in question is not easily heard in the music and it seems a stupid reference to have. 131.111.232.148 (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I personally like the inclusion of the mario sample, although the youtube link in question might not be the best demonstration as it focuses on the rest of the level. The reference is meaningful, as it shows an interesting and rather unusual use of shepard tones in real life. SealedSun (talk) 23:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Plane?
Does it or does it not remind you of a plane flying overhead, descending due to Redshift? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JakCurse (talk • contribs) 21:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ruled by Secrecy
I checked Ruled by Secrecy, by Muse. The Shepard scale glissando is definitely there at the end. Mac Davis (talk) 04:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

What?
This needs to be legible: Tenney has also proposed that the piece be revised and realized so that all entrances are timed in such a way that the ratio between successive pitches is the golden ratio, which would make each lower first-order combination tone of each successive pair coincide with subsequently spaced, lower, tones.

Not only can the sentence not be understood, its also just sort of dropped in there. What entrances? What first order combi whowhat? Why do we care? When did he propose this, and why has it taken him 50 years to accomplish it? 207.159.180.63 (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

New World Round
Could the track from the movie Knowing entitled New World Round be considered a Shepard tone? Jlodman (talk) 03:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Tie Your Mother Down
The intro to the album-only version of Tie Your Mother Down from Queen's A Day At The Races would qualify, I think 68.40.22.158 (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Ten sine waves?
The 'construction' section talks about ten sine waves. Surely this should be three or four? The synthesiser figure and the text seem to be talking about chords of three notes and four notes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.250.43 (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The example in the prose uses only two sine waves per tone, except for the last tone; I edited the article to reflect this. Adding further confusion is that this description does not match the given figure, which as you note, uses three and four sine waves depending on the tone. Gsskyles (talk) 06:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Illusion?
The Shepard scale has been invented and reinvented by many people.

But what qualifies it as an "illusion" ???

When the tones seem to be (say) ascending, they are in fact ascending. 2601:200:C000:1A0:9134:23BF:AC97:F433 (talk) 20:59, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Shepard tone


text:
Art Modell

Arthur Bertram Modell (June 23, 1925 – September 6, 2012) was an American businessman, entrepreneur and National Football League (NFL) team owner. He owned the Cleveland Browns franchise for 35 years and established the Baltimore Ravens franchise, which he owned for eight years.

Assuming control of the Browns franchise in 1961, Modell was a key figure in helping promote the NFL and was initially popular in Cleveland for his active role in the community and his efforts to improve the team. However, he made controversial actions during his ownership, which included the firing of Paul Brown, the franchise's first coach and namesake, and the release of Jim Brown from the roster. In 1995, Modell faced widespread scorn in Cleveland when he attempted to relocate the Browns to Baltimore. Under the terms of an NFL-brokered settlement, Modell left the Browns' name and heritage in Cleveland, which was assumed by a new Browns team in 1999. In return, Modell retained the contracts of all Browns personnel and reconstituted his organization as the Baltimore Ravens, who are officially recognized as a 1996 expansion team.

Praised in Baltimore for returning football to the city after the departure of the Colts, Modell remains a controversial figure in Cleveland due to the relocation and, in particular, for his decision-making around the management of Cleveland Stadium and the construction of a replacement.

Early life and education
Modell was born to a Jewish family in Brooklyn, New York. His father George was a wine sales manager who went bankrupt after the stock market crash of 1929 and later died when Modell was 14. Modell attended New Utrecht High School. At the age of 15, Modell left high school to help support his family. His first job was cleaning the hulls of ships in a Brooklyn shipyard.

In 1943, when he was 18, he joined the United States Army Air Forces. After his service during World War II, he enrolled in a New York City television school under the G.I. Bill. In 1947, he founded his own production company with a fellow student and in 1949, they produced one of the first daytime shows in the country, Market Melodies, dedicated to cooking and decorating. Modell sold the idea of his show to the Grand Union grocery store chain and Modell installed televisions, at his expense, in the aisles of the chain's stores where the show soon became very popular. At the time, very few households had televisions so the store format was wildly successful. In 1954, using the lucrative Grand Union account as leverage, he was hired as a senior account executive at the advertising company L.H. Hartman Co. in New York City, eventually becoming a partner. Formed after the Prohibition era, L.H. Hartman was primarily involved in liquor advertising. In 1958, Modell bought an upstate New York champagne maker, Gold Seal Vineyards Inc. In 1960, L.H. Hartman was dissolved, and Modell again used his Grand Union account to land a job as senior vice president at the advertising firm Kastor, Hilton, Chesley, Clifford & Atherton.

Owner of the Cleveland Browns (1961–1995)
During the 1940s and 1950s, Modell worked in advertising, public relations, and television production in New York City. In 1960, Modell had heard from someone close to Fred "Curly" Morrison, a former Browns running back who worked as an advertising executive for CBS television, that the Cleveland Browns were going to be up for sale. The two most prominent parties interested in the Browns (which had the Nationwide Insurance Company as the largest Browns shareholder among various Cleveland businessmen such as Dave R. Jones) was a group led by Bill Evans of Diamond Alkali and the other was a group headlined by a group of Rudy Schaefer of the Schaefer Brewing Company and various investors to go with Modell. It was noted that head coach Paul Brown, present since the team was founded, was the key last word on any potential sale of the team, as league executives trusted him best about maintaining stability, particularly since Brown was negotiating a contract that would pay him $50,000 for eight years with the new group. At any rate, it was announced in January 1961 that the Modell group would purchase the team for roughly $4 million, with Modell having contributed a portion from his own personal funds and also taking out a loan for several thousands of dollars more. Named as the chairman of the team, he was quoted at the time as having called the team has “my only business and I am going to keep my hands on it.”

Modell & Paul Brown (1961–1963)
In his first season as owner, the Browns won the same amount of games under him that they had won in 1960: eight, which was only good enough for third place. Right before the start of the 1962 season, Brown traded away All-Pro Bobby Mitchell and first-round draft pick Leroy Jackson for Heisman Trophy winner Ernie Davis, who had been drafted by the Washington Redskins but refused to play for George Preston Marshall without the knowledge of Modell, as he was told about the trade by Marshall. Modell recalled being told by Marshall that he "better get out of the business if you don't know what's going on in your own franchise." Modell proceeded to chide Brown about the deal made behind his back. Davis was shortly thereafter diagnosed with terminal leukemia, and some doctors felt that Davis playing football would not exacerbate his condition. He began a conditioning program in preparation to play in the regular season and desired to be a part of the team. Brown and Modell's working relationship was permanently strained after Brown then, against Modell's wishes, continuously refused to play Davis. Davis died the following year without ever playing a snap. By that point, the rift between Paul Brown and some of his players, such as Milt Plum and Jim Brown, who openly questioned Brown's coaching methods and demeanor, grew too much to bear. Players took concerns to the new owner Modell, who they could better relate to than the older, more disciplinarian head coach. Three weeks after a season that saw the Browns win seven games and finish in third place again, Modell had made up his mind. Modell fired Brown on January 9, 1963, which happened to occur in the middle of a newspaper strike in Cleveland. When asked about it at the time about his reasoning, he stated that there were two important ones among the "maybe 25 reasons why", which involved his belief that the maximum potential of the team was not being realized and that at least seven players were not willing to come back to the team for 1963 under the same conditions as 1962. He later named Brown's assistant, Blanton Collier, as the new head coach on January 16, 1963.

Browns win NFL Championship Game (1964)
After three non-playoff seasons, the 1964 Browns' team would finish 10–3–1 and appear in the 1964 NFL Championship Game against a heavily favored Don Shula coached Baltimore Colts team with Pro Football Hall of Fame quarterback Johnny Unitas as its signal caller. The Browns beat the Colts 27–0 in Cleveland Municipal Stadium. This particular Browns team consisted of many players initially drafted and acquired by Brown. During the next 30 years in Cleveland, not a single Modell team won the league title, although they would go on to appear in a total of six NFL/AFC championship title games in his tenure, all of which they lost.

Modell's team promotions
Using his background in advertising to market the team, Modell showed a flair for promotions, with one popular innovation coming in 1962 by scheduling pro football preseason doubleheaders at Cleveland Stadium. Modell also became active in NFL leadership, serving as NFL President from 1967 to 1969 and using his television connections to help negotiate the league's increasingly lucrative television contracts. It was he who agreed to move his team (alongside the Baltimore Colts and the Pittsburgh Steelers) to the newly formed American Football Conference as part of the NFL-AFL merger in 1970. Modell was willing to provide his team as an opponent for both the first prime time Thanksgiving game in 1966 and the opening Monday Night Football broadcast in 1970. He was chairman of the league Television Committee from 1962 to 1993.

Community involvement in Cleveland area
Modell took an active role in Cleveland community life and was a leading fundraiser for charities and various Republican Party candidates. He married TV soap opera star Patricia Breslin in 1969, having previously been a well-known bachelor and man about town. For many years he was able to disarm newspaper and TV reporters with his quick wit. For example, with regard to the NFL's innovative policy of sharing all network television revenue on an equal basis per team, so that the Green Bay Packers and New York Giants each got an equal slice of the revenue, Modell joked that the NFL is run by "a bunch of fat-cat Republicans who vote socialist on football."

Player contract battles
In the offseason after the 1965 season, Jim Brown was in England for shooting of The Dirty Dozen. Modell threatened him with fines when it came to the question of missing portions of training camp. Insulted, Brown retired from football in July 1966.

In 1967, five African American members of the Browns involved in a contract dispute refused to report to training camp. Modell eventually traded or released four of the players, with only standout running back Leroy Kelly staying. Kelly would go on to "play out his option" but the restrictive nature of free agency in the NFL at the time severely limited his options. Subsequent contract battles included various stars and free agents that did not pan out. In 1977, the Browns drafted a punter in the second round with Tom Skladany. He happened to have Howard Slusher as his agent, who was described by Modell as a significant thorn in the side of pro football. When Modell wouldn't budge on the pay for Skladany in the contract discussion, Skladany sat out the whole season. Chip Banks, who won the 1982 Defensive Player of the Year honors with the team, went through consecutive contract holdouts (one of which was to try and negotiate a loan forgiven by Modell) and was even considered to be traded for a supplemental draft pick. It eventually resulted in a trade away from Cleveland.

By 1990, fan animosity manifested itself with anti-Modell stadium banners that were quickly removed by Cleveland Stadium management, which only inspired fans to decide to get creative by buying planes to fly signs near the stadium or to use steel girders with anti-Modell statements. In March 1995, the Browns agreed to a five-year, $17-million deal with free-agent wide receiver Andre Rison. The deal came only after Modell (who labeled him as the biggest star signed by the Browns) had to personally guarantee a $5 million loan for the signing bonus. Modell's statement about needing to take out the loan made Rison believe Modell made him a "scapegoat" and stated that he received anonymous death threats afterwards. One year later, the team cut Rison to make way for newly drafted players such as Ray Lewis and Jonathan Ogden.

As Municipal Stadium landlord (1973–1995)
Modell took control of Cleveland Municipal Stadium in 1973, which had been owned by the City of Cleveland but had become too expensive for the city to operate or maintain. Modell had started the idea of buying land in Strongsville and building a stadium in the Cleveland suburbs. He worked out a 25-year lease deal with the city whereby his newly formed entity, dubbed Stadium Corp., would rent the stadium from the City for $1 per year, assume all operating and repair costs and would sublease the stadium to its two primary tenants, the Browns and the Cleveland Indians, Cleveland's franchise in the American League of Major League Baseball.

As head of Stadium Corp., Modell was also the landlord of the Indians organization. This was a sound business decision even though the Indians played poorly and drew small crowds throughout much of the 1970s and 1980s. The Browns who were paying rent to both themselves and Modell, by constructing loges in the ballpark, generated significant cash flow from the loge rentals not shared with the Indians. Modell later claimed the loge rentals were not profitable as he had financed their construction at the prevailing high interest rates, although he did not explain why the rental income that was earned was not used to offset the debt. The Indians organization became dissatisfied with Modell's Stadium Corp. as its landlord. Modell did not share the loge revenues earned from baseball games with the Indians. Eventually the Indians persuaded City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County voters to fund a new ballpark (which became known as Jacobs Field, later renamed Progressive Field) through new taxes. In turn, Modell was dissatisfied with the Indians' new ballpark because Stadium Corp.'s suite rental revenue decreased once Jacobs Field opened. Many suite customers switched their business from Cleveland Stadium's older suites to Jacobs Field's newer suites, due to the Indians' new-found success and popularity in the mid-1990s and because Modell's Stadium Corp. refused to decrease the annual rent for the suites even though the events for which the suites could be used decreased substantially (81 home games) with the loss of the Indians as a tenant.

In 1979, Stadium Corp. and Modell were implicated in a lawsuit brought by Browns minority shareholder Robert Gries of Gries Sports Enterprises. He had owned 43 percent of the team. He successfully alleged that Stadium Corp. manipulated the Browns' accounting records to help Stadium Corp. and Modell absorb a loss on real property that had been purchased in the Cleveland suburb of Strongsville as a potential site for a new stadium that had him claiming it was worth more than when he had sold the land to Stadium Corp. The lawsuit eventually ended in favor of Gries (he would later sell his family interest upon the move to Baltimore). Modell was offered a place as a tenant in Cleveland's new Gateway Sports and Entertainment Complex. However, he instead asked for improvements to Municipal Stadium. Because Modell's Stadium Corp. still controlled Municipal Stadium, it may have made more business sense for Modell to try to keep the Indians at Municipal, particularly as the baseball team began to show signs of improvement both on the playing field and at the box office. Modell made attempts to make money with the stadium any way he could, which even included a deal to have the Stadium host Northwestern versus Ohio on October 19, 1991. The game itself, referred to as "The Modell Bowl" was a dud for Northwestern, but they reaped the benefits moreso than Modell, as the game was thousands short of a sellout. Meanwhile, the Indians went on to play in the World Series in 1995 and 1997, and sold out 455 straight games at Jacobs Field from 1995 until 2001. The City of Cleveland agreed to make the improvements to Municipal Stadium which were to be funded through an extension of the sin tax, which was instead used to provide funding for the Gateway Sports and Entertainment Complex.

Modell relocates to Baltimore (1996)
While the City of Cleveland, Ohio, wanted to improve Municipal Stadium, Modell issued a public moratorium on discussions relating to the stadium issue for the future of his franchise. It was during this time that Modell entered into secret discussions with the State of Maryland to move the franchise to Baltimore for the 1996 season. The announcement of the move occurred several days before the public referendum on the extension of the sin tax that would fund the improvements on Municipal Stadium as Modell had originally requested. Modell wrote a letter to Cleveland's mayor Michael R. White and Ohio's governor George Voinovich saying that the passing of the referendum may not be enough to keep the Browns. Modell had lost $21 million in the previous two seasons. Modell also wanted that information to be made public. Commentators have speculated that the timing of the announcement was to cause the referendum to go down in defeat and thus allow Modell to make the case that he was not receiving the public support he needed to remain viable in Cleveland. Nonetheless, the referendum was passed by a wide margin. Modell was assisted in the move by Alfred Lerner, who would go on to become the new owner of the reactivated Cleveland Browns franchise in 1998. Modell's move returned the NFL to Baltimore for the first time since the Colts left for Indianapolis after the 1983 season. The reaction in Cleveland was hostile. Modell had promised never to move the team. He had publicly criticized the Baltimore Colts' move to Indianapolis, and had testified in favor of the NFL in court cases where the league unsuccessfully tried to stop Al Davis from moving the Oakland Raiders from Oakland to Los Angeles.

The City of Cleveland vs. Cleveland Browns
The City of Cleveland sued Modell, the Browns, Stadium Corp, the Maryland Stadium Authority, and the authority's director, John A. Moag Jr., in City of Cleveland v. Cleveland Browns, et al., Cuyahoga County Court of Common Pleas Case No. CV-95-297833, for breaching the Browns' lease, which required the team to play its home games at Cleveland Stadium for several years beyond 1995.

Browns franchise deactivated, to resume in '99
Eventually, the NFL and the parties worked out a deal. The Browns' franchise would be deactivated for three years. Modell initially tried to take the Browns name with him to Baltimore. However, as part of a negotiated settlement, Modell agreed that he would leave behind the Browns' name, colors and heritage (including team records) for a replacement franchise, in the form of either a new team or a relocated franchise. In return, Modell was allowed to take the franchise rights, players and organization to Baltimore to form a new team, the Ravens. Cleveland received a loan from the NFL to help with the cost of a new stadium. The Browns returned to the NFL in 1999 with Lerner, a friend of Modell as well as a minority owner of Modell's original franchise and MBNA CEO and owner, assuming ownership, after Lerner outbid other interested parties for the right to buy the reactivated Browns' franchise.

The Browns' record under Modell
During Modell's 35 seasons as team owner the Browns qualified for the postseason 17 times, winning 11 division titles and the NFL championship in 1964. The team's overall regular season record during Modell's tenure was 278–233–7, (winning percentage .542) with a postseason record of 7–14.

Impact of move
The move fueled a proliferation of 12 new stadiums throughout the NFL. Using the NFL-City of Cleveland agreement's promise to supply a team to Cleveland by 1999, several NFL franchises coerced their respective cities to build new stadiums with public funds. Such franchises include the Broncos, Eagles, Seahawks, Buccaneers, Bengals, Lions, Cardinals and Colts.

The Minnesota Twins signed a deal with Hennepin County, Minnesota, for Target Field in 2006, where they agreed to a provision that was later codified into law which allows the state of Minnesota the right of first refusal to buy the team if it is ever sold, and requires that the name, colors, World Series trophies, etc. remain in Minnesota if the Twins are ever moved out of state, a deal similar to what Modell agreed to with the city of Cleveland during the move.

In December 2005, the San Jose Earthquakes MLS franchise moved to Houston, Texas, to become the Houston Dynamo. At the time, it was announced by the league that while players and staff would move with the team, the team name, colors, logo, and records (including two championship trophies) would stay in San Jose for when a new expansion team arrives. In 2008, the Earthquakes returned under the ownership of Lew Wolff, a real estate developer, landowner and part-owner of the Oakland Athletics MLB franchise.

When the Seattle SuperSonics moved to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, in 2008, the owners agreed to leave the "SuperSonics" name, logo, and colors in Seattle for a possible future NBA franchise; however the items would remain the property of the Oklahoma City team along with other "assets" including championship banners and trophies. The team was subsequently renamed the Oklahoma City Thunder. Both the Thunder and any future Seattle NBA team will also "share" the SuperSonics' history.

Modell was a Hall of Fame finalist in 2001 and a semifinalist in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011 and was denied each and every time.

The original Browns were considered one of the NFL's flagship franchises, as well as an institution by many Northern Ohioans. He never returned to Cleveland after 1996. When Browns kicking legend Lou "The Toe" Groza died in 2000, Modell did not appear.

Browns' final game at Municipal Stadium (1995)
When the final game was played in Cleveland Municipal Stadium in 1995, there were more people outside it protesting the move than inside enjoying the potential last Browns game. The protesters were acknowledged by the NBC announcing crew. Several players remained on the field after the game and did laps around the stadium to slap hands with fans, while others took out stadium seats and sod. Modell was not present for the game. Months after the game, the deal to bring the Browns back in 1999 was announced.

Former Colts players, fans rally around team
Many Baltimore fans, including several prominent old-time Colts players who lived in the area, considered the Ravens to be the successors of the Baltimore Colts.

Other retired stars, like Art Donovan, had mixed emotions about the Ravens' arrival: happiness that the great fans of the city now had an NFL team to cheer for again, but also sadness that Cleveland had felt the same loss that Baltimore had in 1984, and a neutral view of the new team itself.

Head coaching changes
Upon the team's move in 1996, Modell selected former NFL head coach and offensive guru Ted Marchibroda as its new head coach. Marchibroda, who also had been the head of the Colts when they were in Baltimore during the late 1970s, had coached them the previous three seasons in Indianapolis, and they were fresh off of an appearance in a memorable 1995 AFC Championship loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

However, the new Ravens still struggled to be competitive and suffered in mediocrity for the first 3 seasons in Baltimore, missing the playoffs each year. In 1999, they hired former NFL assistant coach Brian Billick as the head coach, replacing Marchibroda. Like Marchibroda, Billick, an Ohio native, had been considered one of the brightest offensive minds among the league's offensive coaches, and also had been considered by Modell as a possible Browns head coaching candidate.

Super Bowl XXXV
In 2000, the Ravens, under the coaching of Billick, qualified for the postseason for the first time, winning the AFC Wild-Card position with a 12–4 record. (Tennessee won their division that year.) Led by a stingy defense anchored by team captain and NFL All-Pro middle linebacker Ray Lewis and quarterbacked by former Pro-Bowler Trent Dilfer, they would go on to defeat the NFC Champion New York Giants in the Super Bowl, 34–7. Shortly after the Super Bowl XXXV victory, Modell handed the reins of the day-to-day operations of the team over to his son, David. In that same year, Modell testified at the murder trial of Lewis on his behalf, and Lewis later described him as "like a father figure". The Ravens qualified again for the postseason in 2001 as defending Super Bowl champions, and once more in 2003, winning their first division title. As an owner of the Ravens, the regular season record during Modell's tenure as team owner was 72–63.

Community involvement in Baltimore area
Modell and his wife, former television actress Patricia Breslin, donated millions of dollars to a variety of charities, most notably the SEED School, a boarding school being developed in Baltimore for disadvantaged youth; Johns Hopkins Hospital; Kennedy Krieger Institute; St. Vincent's Center, a home for abused children; and the House of Ruth, a domestic violence center. Modell received the Generous Heart Award from Dr. Ben Carson Scholarship Foundation, given annually for excellence in the community.

Ravens sold to minority owner Bisciotti
Despite a no-cost stadium lease, as well as retaining all revenues from parking, concessions, and TV, as well as a reported $25 million subsidy from the state of Maryland, Modell's ownership of the Ravens resulted in continual financial hardships for the team. In late 2002, the hardships led the NFL to take the unusual step of directing Modell (who had suffered a heart attack and stroke in that same year) to sell his franchise.

In 2003, Modell sold the Ravens to minority owner and Maryland businessman Steve Bisciotti; under the deal, Modell retained a small interest (approximately 1% share) upon the team's sale as a legal maneuver to avoid a claim by the Andrews trust, which was controlled by family of a former business adviser who sought to collect an estimated $30 million finder's fee upon Modell's sale of the team. The Andrews trust essentially claimed that under a 1963 agreement, Modell owed a finder's fee for his original purchase of the team which was to be paid when Modell sold his entire interest. In July 2005, Modell prevailed in court and defeated the Andrews trust's claim. At the time of sale, the franchise's worth was estimated at US$600 million.

Soon after Modell reconstituted his organization in Baltimore in 1996, he had sold a small minority interest to Bisciotti. However, Bisciotti had the option to buy the team fully in right (approximately 99%) until March 2004, this upon becoming a minority owner (about 45%) outright in 1999. Bisciotti exercised his purchase option in January 2004. Modell retained his 1% share and an office at the Ravens' headquarters in Owings Mills, Maryland, as a team consultant.

Modell in popular culture
The furious fan reaction to Modell's planned move of the franchise to Baltimore has been lampooned and chronicled in many media circles, particularly in print and television. On the cover of the December 4, 1995, issue of Sports Illustrated titled "Battle for the Browns", there is a cartoon of Modell punching a Browns fan, adorned with a Browns Helmet/dog and dogbone mask, in the stomach. He was portrayed in the 2008 movie The Express: The Ernie Davis Story, which was about Syracuse running back and Browns draftee Ernie Davis.

An episode of The Drew Carey Show (whose title character and titular actor is a native Clevelander) referenced Modell. During a party at Drew's house, which featured many Cleveland personalities, former Browns quarterback Bernie Kosar asks Drew where the bathroom is. Drew directs Kosar to the bathroom, following with the instruction, "Just don't take a Modell."

Personal life
Modell's only marriage was to Patricia Breslin, lasting from 1969 until her death in 2011. He adopted Breslin's two sons, John and David, from her first marriage to actor David Orrick McDearmon (1914–1979). David would later work for the Browns/Ravens' franchise, eventually become team president and CEO before the team's sale in 2004. As of 2009, Modell and his wife lived in Cockeysville, Maryland. They also retained residences in nearby Owings Mills, Maryland, where son David lived with his family, and Vero Beach, Florida. They had a total of six grandchildren. Patricia died on October 12, 2011, at the age of 80.

Although Modell later retired and had relinquished control of the Ravens, he is still hated in Cleveland, not only for moving the Browns, but also for his firing of head coach Paul Brown in 1963. Some consider the Browns' move and subsequent lawsuits as having cost Modell a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is in Canton, Ohio, 60 miles south of Cleveland and part of the Cleveland television market and Browns' territorial rights.

Death and legacy
Modell had a history of coronary disease. He died on September 6, 2012, at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, at the age of 87 from natural causes. He had not returned to Cleveland before his death.

The Ravens dedicated the 2012 season to Modell. On Week 1, all team members wore an "Art" decal on their helmets, and for the rest of their season, they wore an "Art" patch on the left side of their jerseys. They would go on to win Super Bowl XLVII.

The Sunday following Modell's death was also the opening weekend of the 2012 NFL season. Each team playing a home game was asked to hold a moment of silence in memory of Modell. However, after much discussion, the Browns elected not to hold a moment of silence, but rather a "brief read over the public address system". Finally, at the request of David Modell, the Browns opted not to commemorate or even mention Modell during their pregame festivities to avoid a negative reaction from the team's fans.

On July 23, 2014, a video surfaced on YouTube of an unidentified Browns fan desecrating the grave of Modell wearing a Lyle Alzado jersey by urinating on the grave through a catheter. Baltimore County filed charges for disorderly conduct at the request of Modell's son David Modell once the fan was identified. The charges were dropped after the fan apologized and appeared on David Modell's radio show.

Art Modell was the grandson of the founder of Modell's Sporting Goods, Morris A. Modell, but had nothing to do with that company. Established in 1889, Modell's was a Northeastern US retail chain that transitioned to online-only after a 2020 bankruptcy reorganization. When Modell Sporting Goods attempted to penetrate Maryland markets, it hoped that a perceived association with Art Modell's Baltimore Ravens would be helpful, but ultimately they were unsuccessful.

title: Art Modell


text:
Talk:I Know What You Did Last Summer

New redirect?
I do strongly believe the novel version should be the first article to see because the book was released earlier and is what the film is based off of. Any opinions?Bookster451 (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested Moves

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved — Amakuru (talk) 13:31, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

– The song is also important.Neel.arunabh (talk) 02:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I Know What You Did Last Summer → I Know What You Did Last Summer (film)
 * I Know What You Did Last Summer (disambiguation) → I Know What You Did Last Summer
 * Oppose — the song's title is very likely a reference to this film. It is also highly unlikely that it will match the film's general cultural impact and cinematic significance. It's a turkey of a film, but a very successful one with an immediately recognizable name, and it's still referenced/parodied/imitated to this day. With the exception of a few spikes, the song's pageviews have never overtaken the film, only coming close when it first came out. Now, they have dwindled to around 400 a day, while the film has consistently received 2000 a day for over a year (yes, that's prior to the song's existence, so misdirected views probably don't make up much of those.)  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 06:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the song has not demonstrated the long-term significance required by WP:PTOPIC, but the film does it. If in a few years the song still having the current relevance (all singles are relevant when released), a new RM can be opened. ©   Tb hotch ™ (en-2.5). 15:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:I Know What You Did Last Summer


text:
Talk:Chesty Puller

Death?
Why is there nothing about his later life or death? It looks like in the article history there may have previously been content. Seems like kind of an odd thing to leave out (other than the date of death). 174.63.77.110 (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Chesty Puller's death certificate via Ancestry.com lists immediate cause of death to be "Bronchopneumonia due to undetermined organism"; "other conditions contributing to death but not related to the terminal disease condition" listed as "Encephalomalacia due to cerebral arteriosclerosis". Londonjackbooks (talk) 17:12, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I've edited the Marine section to 'Death and Legacy' while adding where he's buried with a link to the church webpage detailing his burial which includes a photo of his tombstone. This is all meant as a placeholder of sorts till anyone who knows proper wikipedia formatting can adjust it as necessary as I know it is poorly cited. --130.123.231.77 (talk) 06:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Presidential Unit Citation
This article indicates that Puller was awarded the PUC five times, so he would have a PUC ribbon with four stars on it (one for each subsequent award). However, I am currently looking at his actual PUC at the National Museum of the Marine Corps, and his PUC has five stars, indicating six PUC awards. Unless someone can shed some light on the discrepancy, I will be making a change to the article soon. Calarch78 (talk) 22:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Expansion of military acronyms
'XO' and 'CO' need expansion. I'm guessing they mean 'executive officer' and 'commanding officer', but I'm not sure. - Molinari 20:32 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * That is correct. An executive officer (XO) is the assistant to a commanding officer (CO). -- Olathe November 23, 2003

I am under the impression that the Nicaragua war around 1924 was also referred to as the Banana wars. Is this correct?

24 August 2003/ LJW
 * Seems to be more generalized. EG http://www.scholarly.com/bkdetail.asp?0-8420-5046-9 Niteowlneils 01:48, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the Nicaragua Action was part of the various wars fought in SOuth America at the time. To preserve American interests, the US President landed American Marines to deal with the insurgency and to stabilize the country.

No big deal, but it wasn't "American" interests we were fighting for. It was for the fruit companies who objected to higher wages that newly elected leaders in Guatemala and elsewhere were promising the workers. Our debt to those Marines who fought and served in C.A. is that it looks like the Cavendish banana monoculture will lead to the destruction of my favorite breakfast treat! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.195.79 (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

DSC
How did Puller get a Distinguished Service Cross -- is it awarded to Marines? (or had they run out of Navy Crosses because of him.. :) Sivamo 23:28, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's not awarded by the Marines, but
 * ... In addition to his Navy Crosses (the next-highest decoration to the Medal of Honor for Naval personnel), he holds its Army equivalent, the Distinguished Service Cross.

 * He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross and his fifth Navy Cross for heroism in action as commander of the 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division, during the bitter fight to break out of Korea's Chosin Reservoir area. The latter citation, covering the period from 5-10 December 1950, states in part:
 * http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Historical/Whos_Who/Puller_LB.htm

 * According to that link, he won three Air Medals; the wiki article only says "Air Medal". Also, in this picture, http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/IMAGES/Whos_Who/Hi_Res/PullerLB.jpg, one can see an Air Medal with two stars, strongly arguing that he was awarded three Air Medals. I suggest amending the wiki article to so state. :) Sivamo 04:00, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Presumably the DSC was awarded by Almond or MacArthur, who, being Army officers, couldn't have given out Navy medals.
 * —wwoods 00:59, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chesty deserves a Medal of Honor
I have a problem with calling anyone not awarded the Medal of Honor the "most decorated" soldier, sailor, airman or Marine. Better to say that a person has been awarded "more medals or other decorations" than any other servicemember. I think that distinction needs to be made. One other minor point: never say a person "won" a medal. War is not a lottery! Medals are earned--usually at a terrible cost to the individual being recognized. DrDale 23:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I dissagree. The MOH should be reserved for specific acts of valor under fire. And with a few exceptions (Gen MacArthur), it has not been given in the cases where the Commanding Officer lead a valiant action (as opposed to actual action in combat). Chesty's legacy is as one of the finest leaders in the history of the Corps, not as an actual hands-on warrior. These actions do not rate the MOH in my opinion, but they are very deserving of the awards he did recieve. Giving The Medal in these situations cheapens the status of the award. Mushrom 18:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

 * He was almost earmarked for the MOH because of the 5 Navy crosses. It was the tradition that if a soldier earned 5 distinguished crosses (per se, the Army), it would be upgraded to a MOH.  However, there was a controversy between high echelon that canked the decoration, some argue that it was jealously, according to Marine! Life of Chesty Puller.RekonDog (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

NO, there is no tradition in the army that five DSC's gets a Medal of Honor. That absolutely is not true.69.105.97.114 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC).

Chesty as "Most Decorated Marine" This is in response to DrDale's post. The fact that Chesty did not recieve an award he truly deserved does not change the fact that he was the most decorated marine in the history of the corps. As a former Marine myself, we were taught that Chesty was,and is, considered the greatest Marine to have ever worn the uniform.My question is this, if a person wins one Medal of Honor, does that make them the most decorated? I don't think so. The term "DECORATED", as it applies to military service, refers to the ribbons wron on ones uniform. So, if there is only one ribbon, even if it is the Medal of Honor, how can they be called the most decorated? I feel the Chesty derves the honor of that distiction and has,in fact, earned it 209.23.168.222 14:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)LedZepGuy 13/09/06

Incorrectly named page
This page should be called "Lewis Burwell Puller" with a redirect from "Chesty Puller". Anyone care to move it and fix the refering pages? Mr. Jones 19:54, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * No, it shouldn't. The manual of style says to use the most common name (and, for the record, to omit the middle name unless it helps disambiguate). 'Chesty Puller' is much, much more common than 'Lewis Burwell Puller'; thus, the article should be located at Chesty Puller. →Raul654 20:39, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

OK. That makes sense. What about a redirect? So in that case, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom should be called Queen Elizabeth II, then? I don't know of any other Queen Elizabeth IIs alive at the moment, or even in living memory. Perhaps I should take this there. What's your opinion? Mr. Jones 19:10, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely, there should be a redirect. →Raul654 20:06, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Strike that. Lewis Burwell Puller is a disambig page already - it disambiguates between Chesty PUller and his son (who was also named Lewis Burwell Puller). So it's fine as-is. →Raul654 20:08, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

1941 - 1st Marine Division - location
An anon IP changed the location of Chesty Puller in 1941, 1st Marine Division from Camp Lejeune to Camp Pendleton. The Marine Corps biography (see article References), lists it as Camp Lejeune. If there are other reliable references to show that this might be an error, please be sure to reference this if making a change. — ERcheck (talk) @ 02:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

1stMarDiv is located in Camp Pendleton, 2nd is in Lejeune. 1/7 is currently based in 29 Palms, and was formed in San Diego (The Bn. that Chesty Puller Commanded.) I can't find anything on the official 1st MarDiv page for it having ever been in Lejeune. Doesn't mean it wasn't, and maybe you have some info that I can't locate right now, so I'll not change it to Pendleton.. although I'm pretty sure it was that. And this sort of leans towards the West Coast vice the East Coast aswell.. Gelston 23:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Trying to piece it together from other sources:

1st Marine Division Lineage, 1st Marine Division Association:
 * "Redesignated 1 February 1941 as the 1st Marine Division;
 * Relocated during May 1941 to Quantico, Virginia and Parris Island, South Carolina;
 * Deployed during April - July 1942 to Samoa and Wellington, New Zealand."

From this is it seems that in May 1941, the 1st Marine Division was not at Pendleton. But, it doesn't confirm where they were in August 1941. — ERcheck (talk) @ 23:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be definitive that they were at Camp Lejeune — reference: History of the 7th Marine Regiment, 7th Marine Regiment, USMC.
 * "With the cloud of World War II on the horizon, the nation expanded the size of the Corps and on the first of January 1941, the Seventh Marine Regiment was re activated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and was assigned to the First Marine Brigade; The Regiment moved to what is today Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. On the second of April 1942, the Regiment embarked for the Pacific..."

With the information from the 7th Marine Regiment putting them at Camp Lejeune after Guantanamo and before begin deployed to the Pacific Theatre, it seems that the Marine Corps biography information is confirmed. — ERcheck (talk) @ 23:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * (I have added this reference and citation to the article). Wikibofh(talk) 23:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So it was at Lejeune, good job folks. Gelston 21:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It was Camp Lejeune. And there is one very good reason why it was not at Camp Pendleton: Camp Pendleton did not even exist until 1942. The person who made the change simply assumed that the current base of the division was correct, and forgot that this was not always the case. Mushrom 18:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Changing out Korean War picture
The image in the Korean War section was File:ChestyPuller.jpeg, which was just a face shot. I've replaced it with a DOD photo of Chesty Puller cutting the Marine Corps birthday cake in Korean. 05:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Reader Questions
The article states: "Instinctively, Puller knew the army hierarchy would not allow General Smith, a Marine, to command a unit that included army troops. So, when ordered to begin the last phase of Operation Killer, Puller made the best of the opportunity by skillfully leading the 1st Marine Division and achieving its objectives." The word "so" means that one thing caused another. How would his knowledge that the Army would not let General Smith command its troops lead to him taking an oportunity to follow an order successfully? Also, hadn't he been in the military long enough to know plainly, rather than needing instinct to tell him, that the Army wouldn't long want to keep a commander from another branch (which they were, temporarily, allowing) in command of unfamiliar types of units? pvtbuddie June 19 2008

Yeah, that wasn't written properly. As to the command issue, there was an incident in the Pacific theater in WWII, where an army General was removed from command by a Marine General, and the army vowed to never have that happen again.69.105.97.114 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC).

check the damn quotes
"Retreat? we just got here!" That's such a gross misquotation it shames this whole page. I forget who exactly said it but the irony is, this page is enough evidence to know he didn't say that. General Puller never saw action in World War I, which is where this quote came from. A US marine company commander uttered this sentence, when the French told him to follow them in retreat.

As for the rest of the quotes, I'm sure there are at least two that aren't his I just cant prove it, and there is only one that is his for sure.

GEEZE!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.168.134 (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Exactly, this is a Lloyd W. Williams quote! See what I mean about discrepancies? (see my added section on this talk page). RekonDog (talk) 08:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The quotes that are listed are his, just that some aren't worded exactly as what he said. For instance, the "Take me to the Brig. I want to see the real Marines." qoute.  It is almost correct, but wasn't exactly what he said.  I forgot what exactly how he said it but it wasn't like that.  The actual discussion was about how the Marines serving time are exposed to excessive military discipline due to the prison's cirriculum.  One of the biographies explains it...I'll correct this later when I have time.  My oh my, this page needs help.  Chesty would want his biography corrected. RekonDog (talk) 08:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Minor erroneous historical entries
I have notices that the history is somewhat incorrect, and contains a lot of flaws. Someone need to research his past a little bit more with extra scrutiny. Perhaps when I get the time, I will fix them, but I have no time. Just keep in mind folks, that his history article is in need of an overhaul. I have a few biographies of his that I'll scope and re-correct the discrepancies, until then, Semper Fi. RekonDog (talk) 08:07, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

In addition, the following passage is inaccurate: "Soon after arriving on Guadalcanal, Puller led his battalion in a fierce action along the Matanikau, in which Puller's quick thinking saved three of his companies from annihilation. In the action, three of Puller's companies were surrounded and cut-off by a larger Japanese force. Puller ran to the shore, signaled a United States Navy destroyer, and then directed the destroyer to provide gunfire support while landing craft rescued his Marines from their precarious position, actions that earned his Bronze Star." Puller did not accompany the three companies that landed behind Japanese lines on September 27, 1942. These three companies were commanded by Puller's executive officer, Major Otho Rodgers. Puller had been retained, over his objections, at General Vandergrift's HQ to help coordinate the overall attack, of which these three companies only played one part. Once Puller learned his three companies were in trouble, he boarded the destroyer, USS Monssen, and followed by several landing craft that were under the command of Petty Office Douglas Munro, and proceeded to a position off the coast from where the three companies were trapped. It was Sgt. Robert D. Raysbrook who signaled out to the destroyer (using flags, which he had first learned to use in the Boy Scouts) that the companies were trapped. Puller, via a navy signalman, sent back a message, using a blinker light, that the destroyer would send a rolling barrage of fire up to their position and then the Marines should pull back to the beach, as the destroyer fire rolled back to the beach. Once at the beach, the Marines were picked up by the boats commanded by Douglas Munro. Munro was killed, but was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions. Sgt. Raysbrook was awarded the Navy Cross for standing on a tree stump in the middle of a fire fight to signal out to Puller on the USS Monssen. Plt. Sgt. Anthony P. Malanowski was posthumously awarded the Navy Cross for staying behind to cover the pull back of the Marines to the coast. I am in no way suggesting that Puller wasn't the brains behind this remarkable piece of work, because he was. And it was Puller's quick thinking that saved the day. But Puller was on board the USS Monssen, not ashore with the three companies. As for a reference, the best one I can think of is "Guadalcanal" by Richard Frank. And while this is not really a reference, I personally heard Lewis Puller tell this story and my father was one of the three company commanders in this battle and I personally heard him tell this story too.

John N Cox (JohnNCox@msn.com)

Structure and flow are messed up from recent reverts
The article now leads with what looks like material that was not put back where it belongs. I'm not sure how to fix it because. lacking citations, I can't tell what is reliable material. I'm hoping this article is being followed by those with more experience and, frankly, interest in cleaning up this mess. Due to the speed with which the last revert was applied, though, I'm sure this is the case.

Dhugot (talk) 05:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Dhugot. I agree with you in that everything above the General's picture is devoid of citations and has numerous misspellings. It should be removed or Wikified and added to the section about his son. Certainly, it doesn't belong at the beginning of the article. I can't edit it because if there's a way to muck the page up completely beyond readability, I'd find it. Probably without trying. Hope that helps.

Happy Trails!--Dr. Entropy (talk) 10:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Nickname
When exactly die people start calling him "Chesty". One could guess that it was some time after WWII due to the number of medals awarded to him. But if the nickname is older than that, than it could have a different source. Regardless, it seems to me that such information should be in the article and sourced. —MJBurrage(T•C) 18:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe that Chesty's nickname was an account of his barrel chest. Pvt Gibbs (talk) 00:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

According to the television show First Command aired on The Military Channel, the nickname "Chesty" came abount because of his deep booming voice and unique way of speaking. However, considering past inaccuracies with Military Channel shows, this explanation ought to be taken somewhat with a grain of salt IMHO. Sector001 (talk) 21:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Intrusive Content Not Strictly Relevant to This Article
While the story of how Sergeant John Basilone earned his Medal of Honor during the Battle of Henderson Field is an important one (not to mention it made for a riveting TV episode), I'm trying to find out why it is told in such detail on a page supposedly dedicated to telling people about Chesty Puller. A side note (something akin to "It was in this battle that Sergeant John Basilone would earn the Medal of Honor" along with a link) should be sufficient, assuming it needs to be mentioned on this page at all. What sayeth the collected intelligensia?-- JackFloridian (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Do it, I can agree that it deserves mention that during the Battle of Henderson field Basilone earned the MoH, but only as an aside with a wikilink to his article. Cheers.  EricSerge (talk) 14:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.JackFloridian (talk) 07:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Because Puller put him in for the Medal. Duh. 69.140.166.249 (talk) 01:44, 28 September 2016 (UTC) I am the Clown They're Looking For

Man O' War?
The "In Popular Culture" section includes the following:

 * The group "Intercontinental Music Lab" have a song titled "My Man O' War" in their album "Intercontinental Music Lab goes to war".

However, there isn't anything in the article that indicates what connection My Man O' War has to Chesty Puller. Ileanadu (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

 * The subject is Chesty Puller; see http://www.intercontinentalmusiclab.com/music/iml-goes-to-war/my-man-o-war/
 * My problem is I don't see the addition meeting WP:DUE. There's a song, but I don't see that the song has attracted much notice.
 * Glrx (talk) 06:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment on Peleliu
Puller's regiment sustained 60% casualties in the attack. A comment suggests that this might not have been his fault. Partly true. His CO was (from the ship) telling him to "charge." Like George Custer, "charge" always suited Puller just fine. With the advantage of hindsight, this was way too aggressive for the situation. 60% casualties for that size group are rarely acceptable. The other regiments, with similar challenges, did not sustain that rate. Some of his units were essentially destroyed. Student7 (talk) 20:20, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

 * The statement needs a reasonable source. Editors cannot look at the casualty rate and blame Puller.  Neither can editors arbitrarily compare Puller to Custer. No WP:OR.  Puller did not have the benefit of hindsight; he had to make decisions then.  High level commanders occasionally must sacrifice units to protect other units or achieve other long term benefits. Glrx (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

 * a) Actually, I didn't look at the casualty rate first. I heard that his men were totally demoralized by their destruction at the time.
 * b) And yes, his boss (aboard ship) told them all to take their objectives ASAP. But Puller was the one to take his first, and with the most casualties.
 * c) I don't believe there is any dearth of WP:RS. A long time ago, with plenty of time to reflect. http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/peleliu/bloody.aspx, https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/peleliu-forgotten-battle, http://www.historynet.com/peleliu. These were three out of the first four cites I found, the last fairly negative about Puller. The fourth lacked analysis. Student7 (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Awards, combat action ribbon
Puller is entitled to two Combat Action Ribbon awards (WW2 & Korea). I don't think any former Marine would dispute that and remove the CAR (personal decoration) from Puller's infobox as its "not of enough significance to be in the infobox", and remove the CAR with 5/16" gold star (I placed for Puller) from the article Awards and decorations section (ribbons display) which has been attempted here evidently so that Puller especially and other Marines' articles (see Gen Robert Barrow Talk, where the disrupting editor came-ran here from) for other Marines who served in combat can have their CAR's removed. The CAR is retroactive to December 7, 1941 according to Public Law 106-65--Oct. 5, 1999. YahwehSaves (talk) 19:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * While the CAR is retroactive, and it is likely that Puller would be entitled to the CAR, there are no reliable sources to substantiate his retroactive award of the CAR. I would also surmise that you are suggesting the I am the "disrupting editor". I do not appreciate the personal attack and remind you to assume good faith. To clarify why I do not follow your line of thinking, I suggest you read the following Wikipedia policies: Identifying reliable sources and No original research. EricSerge (talk) 16:44, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Every ribbon award (CAR has no medal) has to be sourced for Puller (and General Barrow...)? There's reason to believe in good faith that Puller's NOK would have applied for and received the CARs for Pullar by now (have all his awards updated) since he's probably the most famous Marine. Who's attacking who? You are the one that says in General Robert Barrow's article talk page, in the " Number of Combat Action Ribbon?" section: "... if you're Commandant you can probably put whatever you want on your rack (Photo of Marine Gen Pullar wearing his ribbons ). Who is going to bust your balls?" YahwehSaves (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The only thing that we are to Assume good faith on is the intention of other editors. Everything, on Wikipedia should be sourced. We do not make guesses, I will again, for perhaps the dozenth time direct you to read the following Wikipeida policies: WP:Identifying reliable sources and WP:Verifiability. If we do not have a reliable source where facts can be verified, then we are printing WP:Original Research at best and lies or untruths at worst. Over the years, I have tried to assume good faith in working with you. When it seems you are unclear on a policy or guideline, I make sure to link that policy in my response to you. However, it appears that you have refused to read some of the most basic guidelines for editing at Wikipedia. We only put in articles what we can prove in sources. If you do not have a source, you can not assume good faith that someone, somewhere might have done something that is, at this point unverifiable. Again, you are asking us to prove a negative. In reference to the Barrow picture from NARA, I have to assume that is what you mean, as "Pullar" [sic] was never Commandant of the Marine Corps, I am referring primarily to the SACO medal ribbon. I had never seen any regulations permitting that one for wear by active duty members. Again, if you are the Commandant, who truly will bust your balls about it? IF we are to make suppositions about Chesty Puller and his dead relatives, do you really think that it means that much to them to go fill out the paperwork for additional and retrospective awards for a man as highly decorated as Puller? I do not know the answer, but I would bet a tall, cold, frosty beer that they would not and by God, Chesty probably would not have given two hoots about another addition to his fruit salad. EricSerge (talk) 04:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Awards, Korean War Service Medal
Should we add the Korean War Service Medal to the page? Information about the award can be found at https://www.afpc.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/421898/republic-of-korea-korean-war-service-medal/

Thanks - Weaklandjr (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Quotations
I've removed the sections on quotations per WP:LONGQUOTE. Glrx's rationale that there was "a discussion" on another article about another individual is irrelevant to this article. Excessive quotations do not belong in an article, Wikiquote exists for that purpose, and as per WP:LONGQUOTE: "Quotations that can't be justified for use in an article directly may be placed in Wikiquote and a Wikiquote template put on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject." There is no justification given for these quotes other than the fact that another article has them; Yogi Berra is a poor example to compare with for a few reasons; it's hardly a good article to compare to and, as the lede of that article notes, Yogiisms are a big part of why he is known. Berra and Puller are known for different things, Berra is known for these quotes, Puller is not. That Puller has been quoted is not the same, as almost all famous individuals have been quoted. - Aoidh (talk) 14:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There's also already a link to Wikiquote in the article, so the Wikiquote page is what should be improved to add these quotations, as that's where they belong. The scope of Wikipedia articles does not include quotes for the sake of having them. - Aoidh (talk) 14:50, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Corrections needed:
"The corps commander had to order the 1st MarDiv commanding general to pull the annihilated 1st Marines out of the line."

This sentence needs to be updated to clarify whether Puller was the corps commander or the MarDiv commanding general -- it's totally unclear.

"On February 24, however, his immediate superior, Major General O.P. Smith, was hastily transferred to command IX Corps when its Army commander, Major General Bryant Moore, died"

This needs to be corrected -- there is no "Army commander" in the Marine Corps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xmbecker (talk • contribs) 21:47, 27 July 2015

 * First point: it states: The 1st Marines under Puller's command lost 1,749 out of approximately 3,000 men... clearly stated, he was in command of 1st MarDiv (altho the MarDiv abbreviation seems odd to me). OK he was in command of the 1st Marine Regiment in the battle hmm. Vsmith (talk) 01:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC) And reworded as too many "1st Marine" abbreviations caused confusion. Vsmith (talk) 02:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Second point: it states: transferred to command IX Corps when its Army commander, Major General Bryant Moore, died. Gen. Moore was an Army general and was commander of IX Corps. Seems quite clear to me. Vsmith (talk) 01:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Namesakes in popular culture addition
Apparently there is a tree in the "Valley of the Titans" area of the costal redwoods in California called "Chesty Puller". It is located near a WWII memorial reserve, though I'm not sure if this is why it is named after the Lt. General. I tried to find some sort of official index of notable old-growth redwoods but was unable to find such an authority though if imagine that the Federal and California dept of Forestry would have such a list (official or otherwise). Anyway, here's a link that explains the tree a bit: http://www.mdvaden.com/redwood_chesty_puller.shtml

There are other citations available but there does seem to be a bit of confusion over if this is a nickname given by the author of the citation listed above, or if it is an official name. I'll let someone else explore this particular rabbit hole as I'm about to jump out.

Posimosh (talk) 20:35, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits
Someone has recently changed the first line to something than other than a "Lt Gen". I have fixed both edits, but I am sure it will be changed back soon. Feickus (talk) 14:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Six Not Five
The page says "Puller received the second-highest U.S. military award five times (the only person ever in U.S. history): five Navy Crosses and one U.S. Army Distinguished Service Cross."

The first "five" should be "six" but I'm not going to change it because some Assburgers-riddled Wikipedia editor would have a hissy fit.69.140.166.249 (talk) 01:39, 28 September 2016 (UTC) I'm the Clown They're Looking For

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Chesty Puller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130221094138/http://www.msc.navy.mil/N00p/pressrel/press12/press01.htm to http://www.msc.navy.mil/N00p/pressrel/press12/press01.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120118130846/https://slsp.manpower.usmc.mil/GOSA/Biographies/rptBiography.asp?PERSON_ID=2109&PERSON_TYPE=General to https://slsp.manpower.usmc.mil/GOSA/Biographies/rptBiography.asp?PERSON_ID=2109&PERSON_TYPE=General

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:20, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Chesty Puller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160428023324/http://www.raabcollection.com/chesty-puller-autograph/chesty-puller-signed-marine%E2%80%99s-marine-chesty-puller-wonders-how-he-got-his to http://www.raabcollection.com/chesty-puller-autograph/chesty-puller-signed-marine%E2%80%99s-marine-chesty-puller-wonders-how-he-got-his
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130731072526/http://marines.dodlive.mil/2013/04/10/ultimate-marine-puller-vs-butler/ to http://marines.dodlive.mil/2013/04/10/ultimate-marine-puller-vs-butler/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 07:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

His other daughter and her husband
Why is there no mention of his daughter, Martha, and here husband, a retired Marine general, both of whom are still alive? 2600:1700:3B90:C4A0:944B:ED48:73BD:4103 (talk) 17:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you have that info and references, please feel free to do so. Ckruschke (talk) 14:14, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Ckruschke

Most decorated Marine????
Sergeant Major Daniel Daly, USMC was nominated 3 times for the Medal of Honor. He won two Medals of Honor and had his third medal downgraded to a DSC because of politics. Soon after the fight for his 3rd medal of honor ended, they passed a law that only one medal of honor could be won. 2600:1015:A011:BFA0:C82:AAB8:8474:6668 (talk) 16:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Most decorated Marine No 2.
John J Kelly, a private who fought in World War I was only in the Marine Corps for three Years from 1917-1919. It that short period of time received 2 Medals of Honor and 5 silver stars. That surely matches up with Chesty Puller who won his awards in a lifetime of service. 2600:1015:A011:BFA0:C82:AAB8:8474:6668 (talk) 16:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chesty Puller


text:
User:Agent Smith

I'm very interested in Dragon Ball Z/GT, so thats what I edit mostly. Agent Jones and I are slowly filling in the missing characters, please feel free to help us. Just go to the Dragon Ball Z page, go down to the characters list and click on one of the characters. Agent Jones and I can only fill in the information that we are aware of, so feel free to correct the page information if you see an error in what we've said.

Currently, Goku needs the most work, and Vegeta could use attention. Most of the Androids need doing, too. A. Smith 08:17 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

title: User:Agent Smith


text:
Coca wine

Coca wine is an alcoholic beverage combining wine with cocaine. One popular brand was Vin Mariani, developed in 1863 by French-Corsican chemist and entrepreneur Angelo Mariani.

At the end of the 19th century, the fear of drug abuse made coca-based drinks less popular. This led to the prohibition of cocaine in the United States in 1914 via the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act, and the removal of cocaine from coca wine, though coca leaf remained. Coca wine itself became illegal in the United States when its other main drug, alcohol, was banned just a few years later with the Eighteenth Amendment in 1920.

Related beverages
In Atlanta, John Pemberton, a pharmacist, developed a beverage based on Vin Mariani, called Pemberton's French Wine Coca. It proved popular among American consumers. In 1886, when Georgia introduced Prohibition, Pemberton had to replace the wine in his recipe with non-alcoholic syrup. The new recipe became Coca-Cola.

Physiological effects
The combination of cocaine and alcohol leads to the formation of cocaethylene in the body. Studies suggest the compound decreases the feelings of drunkenness from alcohol alone and heightens euphoric sensations, but is also potentially cardiotoxic, more so than either cocaine or alcohol alone.

title: Coca wine


text:
Independence of irrelevant alternatives

Independence of irrelevant alternatives (IIA), also known as binary independence, the independence axiom, is an axiom of decision theory and economics describing a necessary condition for rational behavior. The axiom says that a choice between $$A$$ and $$B$$ should not depend on the quality of a third, unrelated outcome $C$.

The axiom is deeply connected to several of the most important results in social choice, welfare economics, ethics, and decision theory. Among these results are Arrow's impossibility theorem, the VNM utility theorem, Harsanyi's utilitarian theorem, and the Dutch book theorems.

Violations of IIA in individual behavior (caused by irrationality) are called menu effects or menu dependence. Violations of IIA in social choice are called spoiler effects.

Motivation
This is sometimes explained with a short story by philosopher Sidney Morgenbesser:"Morgenbesser, ordering dessert, is told by a waitress that he can choose between blueberry or apple pie. He orders apple. Soon the waitress comes back and explains cherry pie is also an option. Morgenbesser replies 'In that case, I'll have blueberry.'"Independence of irrelevant alternatives rules out this kind of arbitrary behavior, by stating that:
 * If A(pple) is chosen over B(lueberry) in the choice set {A, B}, introducing a third option C(herry) must not result in B being chosen over A.

Decision theory
In rational choice theory, IIA is one of the von Neumann-Morgenstern axioms, four axioms that together characterize rational choice under uncertainty (and establish that it can be represented as maximizing expected utility). One of these axioms generalizes IIA to random events.

Say we have two possible outcomes, $$\,\text{Bad} \prec \text{Good}$$ (i.e. Good is preferred to Bad), and also an irrelevant outcome $$N$$. Let $$p$$ be any probability. IIA states that a random probability $$p$$ of receiving $$N$$ rather than $$\text{Bad}$$ or $$\text{Good}$$ does not affect our decision.

Here we write $$\, (1-p) A + p B$$ to mean a gamble (or lottery) with a probability $$1-p$$ of resulting in $$A$$ and probability $$p$$ of resulting in $$B$$. Then, for any $$N$$ and $$p\in[0,1]$$ (with the "irrelevant" part of the lottery underlined):

$$\, (1-p) \, \text{Bad} + \underline{p N} \prec (1-p) \, \text{Good} + \underline{p N}$$.

In other words, the probabilities involving $$N$$ cancel out, because the probability of $$N$$ is unchanged, regardless of which lottery we pick.

In prescriptive (or normative) models, independence of irrelevant alternatives is used together with the other VNM axioms to develop a theory of how rational agents should behave, often relying on the Dutch Book arguments.

Economics
In economics, the axiom is connected to the theory of revealed preferences. Economists often invoke IIA when building descriptive (positive) models of behavior to ensure agents have well-defined preferences that can be used for making testable predictions. If agents' behavior or preferences are allowed to change depending on irrelevant circumstances, any model could be made unfalsifiable by claiming some irrelevant circumstance must have changed when repeating the experiment. Often, the axiom is justified by arguing that any irrational agent will be money pumped until going bankrupt, making their preferences unobservable or irrelevant to the rest of the economy.

IIA is a direct consequence of the multinomial logit model in empirical econometrics.

Behavioral economics
While economists must often make do with assuming IIA for reasons of computation or to make sure they are addressing a well-posed problem, experimental economists have shown that real human decisions often violate IIA, known as a menu effect. For example, the decoy effect shows that inserting a $5 medium soda between a $3 small and $5.10 large can make customers perceive the large as a better deal (because it's "only 10 cents more than the medium"). Behavioral economics introduces models that weaken or remove the positive (not normative) assumption of IIA. This provides greater accuracy, at the cost of making the model more complex and more difficult to falsify.

Social choice
In social choice theory and election science, independence of irrelevant alternatives is often stated as "if one candidate (X) would win an election without a new candidate (Y), and Y is added to the ballot, then either X or Y should win the election." Situations where Y affects the outcome are called spoiler effects.

Arrow's impossibility theorem shows that no reasonable (non-random, non-dictatorial) ranked-choice voting voting system can satisfy IIA, even when voters are perfectly honest. However, Arrow's theorem does not apply to rated voting methods, which can (and typically do) pass IIA. Approval voting, score voting, and median voting all satisfy the IIA criterion and Pareto efficiency. Note that if new candidates are added to ballots without changing any of the ratings for existing ballots, the score of existing candidates remains unchanged, leaving the winner the same. Generalizations of Arrow's impossibility theorem show that if the voters change their rating scales depending on the candidates who are running, the outcome of cardinal voting may still be affected by the presence of non-winning candidates.

Other methods that pass IIA include sortition and random dictatorship.

Common voting methods
Deterministic voting methods that behave like majority rule when there are only two candidates can be shown to fail IIA by the use of a Condorcet cycle:

Consider a scenario in which there are three candidates A, B, & C, and the voters' preferences are as follows:
 * 25% of the voters prefer A over B, and B over C. (A>B>C)
 * 40% of the voters prefer B over C, and C over A. (B>C>A)
 * 35% of the voters prefer C over A, and A over B. (C>A>B)

(These are preferences, not votes, and thus are independent of the voting method.)

75% prefer C over A, 65% prefer B over C, and 60% prefer A over B. The presence of this societal intransitivity is the voting paradox. Regardless of the voting method and the actual votes, there are only three cases to consider:
 * Case 1: A is elected. IIA is violated because the 75% who prefer C over A would elect C if B were not a candidate.
 * Case 2: B is elected. IIA is violated because the 60% who prefer A over B would elect A if C were not a candidate.
 * Case 3: C is elected. IIA is violated because the 65% who prefer B over C would elect B if A were not a candidate.

For particular voting methods, the following results hold:

 * Instant-runoff voting, the Kemeny-Young method, Minimax Condorcet, Ranked Pairs, top-two runoff, First-past-the-post, and the Schulze method all elect B in the scenario above, and thus fail IIA after C is removed.
 * The Borda count and Bucklin voting both elect C in the scenario above, and thus fail IIA after A is removed.
 * Copeland's method returns a three-way tie. If A is removed, then B becomes the sole winner, making C lose. Hence it, too, fails IIA.

Examples of failure
On two occasions the failure of IIA has led the International Skating Union (ISU), which regulates figure skating, to change the voting method its judges use during competition. The first was at the 1995 World Figure Skating Championships, when Michelle Kwan's fourth-place performance near the end of the ladies' competition resulted in Surya Bonaly and Nicole Bobek exchanging second and third place, even though they had already skated, due to the way the ranked-choice voting worked out afterwards. Two years afterwards the ISU switched to a pairwise ranked-choice system.

At the 2002 Winter Olympics, that system produced another IIA failure. Kwan had been ahead of Sarah Hughes, the eventual gold medal winner, until Irina Slutskaya skated, whereupon she and Hughes exchanged places in the rankings. Two years later the ISU adopted range voting.

title: Independence of irrelevant alternatives