text:
Talk:Elephunk

Reviews
The Rolling Stone Review has the wrong rating, its 2 out of 5, not 2 and 1/2 out of 5, also the link given doesn't work,  The updated link is at http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/elephunk-20030618 Crazychrisr92 (talk) 03:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Let's get retarded
this needs to tell us the producer of the silly album The track listing shows the 3rd song of the album as "Let's Get It Started". Since that's the name of a radio edit of the song "Let's Get Retarded" (which is the original name of the track) I'm changing it. --Gusutabo 12:44, 17 January 2007

 * I agree entirely, but it seems the listing has been changed back under the premise of vandalism. To whomever is making such an edit: "Let's Get Retarded is not vandalism; it is the correctly listed title for the original release.  "Let's Get It Started" has never been on this album but was only released as a single.  Wikipedia is a place for encyclopedic, content not partisanism. ☭  Zippanova  17:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

 * The page doesn't seem to be properly protected, as the vandalism is continuing to happen. I would however, correct your statement that '"Let's Get It Started" has never been on this album'. It was, in fact, included as a bonus track on later editions; but appended, and not in place of the original. -Crimson Bleeding Souls (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The Album listing should have the track listed as "Let's Get Retarded" to accurately reflect the tracklisting as produced and released as the Black Eyed Peas. "Let's Get it Started" refers explicitly to the single/censored version, not the original. As such, I'll mark this page as being watched, and put it under semi-protected to prevent further vandalism by those offended by the original content. 99.16.29.106 (talk) 08:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Well it keeps getting reverted. I corrected it, and added footnotes explaining the difference between the single, bonus track, and original.  We'll see if it helps or not. JoeD80 (talk) 18:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

 * People just keep changing it back to "Let's Get It Started"! Gah! I've even put a message there, but it keeps happening. Can't we get some protection or something? ※ gtw 07:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This issue has not gone away. People keep updating the page to contain the correct name of Track 3, which is Let's Get Retarded and it keeps getting reverted every single time. I'll try updating it once more and hopefully not get caught up in an edit war. ak47wong (talk) 05:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I recently made an edit changing Let's Get Retarded to Let's Get It Started. I deeply apologize for making that change as I thought I was trying to do good. People have constituted it as vandalism. I was mistakenly unaware of this and again, I apologize and take full responsibility for it as I did not see the talk page nor the note. It will not happen again. Thank you. Geo g guy (talk) 08:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Bonus Songs
Where can I find these songs? I've been checking if they are mentioned anywhere else but here, and couldn't find anything Lironhallak (talk) 11:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "La Paga" ft. Juanes (Latin version)
 * "Where Is the Love?" ft. 2pac (DJ Menace mix)

You can find these songs:
Uh we shouldn't be advertising file sharing software here, so I removed the comment that was here. JoeD80 (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The E.N.D remixes
I noticed it stated what songs were remixed on their first two albums, why not here or on Monkey Business? --Trevorrrj (talk) 13:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Elephunk. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927202022/http://www.ifpi.de/wirtschaft/gpergebnis.php?txtSuche=elephunk&strAktion=suche to http://www.ifpi.de/wirtschaft/gpergebnis.php?txtSuche=elephunk&strAktion=suche

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 22:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Genre
It makes no sense that pop is listed as the primary genre of this album, despite at the time of the album's release, The Black Eyed Peas were a hip op group and had not yet transitioned into a pop group completely, listing this album as pop mainly is misleading. - SmithN41V 20:03, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Robert Christgau in The Village Voice is unquestionably a reliable source and calls it pop in no uncertain terms. PopMatters (a bit less reliable, IMO) calls it hip-hop. I cannot see any reason for removing either of them (though drownedinsound seems to be a blog and adds no value to the discussion).
 * Pretending a source says R&B not pop when it says pop but not R&B isn't even worth discussing. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 23:35, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

 * We don't try to figure out the genre ourselves, and it's especially useless to do so based on what the band was doing before the album was released, as a group can change genres. Instead of working it out ourselves, we look at the published reviews so that we can summarize them for the reader. If the reviewers mostly agree that the album is pop (and they do) then it doesn't matter how outrageous that might seem. Binksternet (talk) 00:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * and a steady parade of IPs from MariaJayHicky disagree s . - Sum mer PhD v2.0 16:53, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm the only one who just picked up in the article, it refers to it as "rap album" so why was pop added? Joesob (talk) 16:55, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The article says they are "alt-rappers". The article says the album is "the brightest actual pop album of 2003". I say you are evading a block. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Please explain how Robert Christgau is suddenly not credible. The Reliable sources/Noticeboard and Project:Music disagree with you. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:33, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Joesob has been blocked as a sock of MariaJayHicky. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 22:04, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * More socking by MariaJaydHicky. Blocking IP and page protection here. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 21:18, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * More socks of MariaJaydHicky. Requesting page protection again. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 05:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Another MariaJayHicky sock doesn't like that the BEPs are a pop act. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:26, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 one external links on Elephunk. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/64wuSk4vz?url=http://www.aria.com.au/pages/aria-charts-accreditations-albums-2003.htm to http://www.aria.com.au/pages/aria-charts-accreditations-albums-2003.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151010100457/http://www.hitlistan.se//netdata/ghl002.mbr/artdata?sart=234301 to http://www.hitlistan.se/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140625075145/http://www.bpi.co.uk/certified-awards.aspx to http://www.bpi.co.uk/certified-awards.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:25, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Elephunk. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121107052159/http://www.gamespot.com/news/6105705.html to http://www.gamespot.com/news/6105705.html
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6B9xVYkwX?url=http://www.promusicae.org/files/listassemanales/albumes/historial/TOP%20100%20ALBUMES%2004_09.pdf to http://www.promusicae.org/files/listassemanales/albumes/historial/TOP%20100%20ALBUMES%2004_09.pdf
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20070927004426/http://www.capif.org.ar/Default.asp?AnoFiltro=2004&CO=5&CODOP=ESOP&ACCION=+Buscar+ to http://www.capif.org.ar/Default.asp?AnoFiltro=2004&CO=5&CODOP=ESOP&ACCION=%20Buscar%20
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110826190627/http://www.cria.ca/gold/1205_g.php to http://www.cria.ca/gold/1205_g.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100618074540/http://promusicae.es/files/listasanuales/albumes/Top%2050%20albumes%202004.pdf to http://www.promusicae.es/files/listasanuales/albumes/Top%2050%20albumes%202004.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:56, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Elephunk. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.blender.com/reviews/review_1701.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090112084331/http://indonesianalbum.blog.com/ to http://www.indonesianalbum.blog.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100904024421/http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart_watch/61946/chart-watch-extra-40-who-died-before-40 to http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart_watch/61946/chart-watch-extra-40-who-died-before-40/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 07:18, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Elephunk


text:
User:Fonzy/sandbox2

 Recent Changes for: Meta-Wikipedia - Test wiki - Wiktionary - Wikiquote - Wikibooks - (help | edit)  Utilities:  New & Old pages - Pages that need work - Vandalism - Votes for deletion  '''About Wikipedia:  Welcome/FAQ - Announcements - Policies - Village pump - Mailing lists - Chat  Requested articles:  Mitsui - Rayid - Li Lu - Eurovision Young Dancers Competition - turf - Signuno

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Fonzy/sandbox2


text:
Davao Gulf

Davao Gulf is a gulf situated in the southeastern portion of Mindanao in the Philippines. It has an area of 5,200 km2 or about 520,000 hectares. Davao Gulf cuts into the island of Mindanao from the Philippine Sea. It is surrounded by all five provinces in the Davao Region. The largest island in the gulf is Samal Island. Davao City, on the Gulf's west coast, is the largest and busiest port on the gulf. The Bagobo and the Kaagan / Kalagan, who are the indigenous Lumad tribes endemic to Davao, are known inhabitants of the said gulf.

Wildlife
The gulf water is regarded as one of the most diverse cetacean habitats in the nation, being home to at least 10 species of toothed whales and dolphins such as sperm whales and beaked whales. Also, whale sharks and sea cows are seen frequently. Furthermore, several ecological phenomena have been observed in Davao Gulf such as a previously unknown predator of the crown-of-thorns starfish, new species records, and new species discoveries underlining the uniqueness of the marine resources in Davao Gulf.

title: Davao Gulf


text:
Capsule hotel

A capsule hotel (カプセルホテル), also known in the Western world as a pod hotel, is a type of hotel developed in Japan that features many small, bed-sized rooms known as capsules. Capsule hotels provide cheap, basic overnight accommodation for guests who do not require or who cannot afford larger, more expensive rooms offered by more conventional hotels.

The first capsule hotel in the world opened in 1979 and was the Capsule Inn Osaka, located in the Umeda district of Osaka, Japan and designed by Kisho Kurokawa. From there, it spread to other cities within Japan. Since then, the concept has further spread to various other territories, including Belgium, China, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Israel, Poland, South Korea and Canada.

Description
The guest room is a chamber roughly the length and width of a single bed, with sufficient height for a hotel guest to crawl in and sit up on the bed. The chamber walls may be made of wood, metal or any rigid material, but are often fibreglass or plastic. Amenities within the room generally include a small television, air conditioning, an electronic console, and power sockets. The capsules are stacked side-by-side, two units high, with steps or ladders providing access to the second-level rooms, similar to bunk beds. The open end of the capsule can be closed with a curtain or a solid door for privacy, but can be locked from the inside only.

Like a hostel, many amenities are communally shared, including toilets, showers, wireless internet, and dining rooms. In Japan, a capsule hotel may have a communal bath and sauna. Some hotels also provide restaurants, snack bars, bars, or vending machines, pools, and other entertainment facilities. There may be a lounge with upholstered chairs for relaxing, along with newspapers and reading material.

Capsule hotels vary in size, from 50 or so capsules to 700, and primarily cater to men. Some capsule hotels offer separate sections for male and female guests, or even separate floors and elevators. Clothes and shoes are exchanged for a yukata and slippers on entry, and a towel and bathrobe may also be provided. Luggage and valuables are usually stored in lockers or—if available—in-room safes. Guests are asked not to smoke or eat in the capsules.

Customer base
The benefits of these hotels are their convenience and low price, usually around ¥2000–4000 (USD –) a night.

In Japan, capsule hotels have been stereotypically used by Japanese salarymen who may be too drunk to return home safely, have missed the last train of the day to make a return trip home due to working late hours, or are too embarrassed to face their spouses. During the Great Recession, some unemployed or underemployed workers who had become homeless during the crisis temporarily rented capsules by the month. As of 2010, these customers made up 30% of visitors at the Capsule Hotel Shinjuku 510 in Tokyo.

title: Capsule hotel


text:
Talk:Harvard architecture

Misc
will you elaborate the harvard architectur, how it goes and why is this architecture is contrast to von neumann architecture

 * The best way to understand this is to read both articles. However notice that BOTH (at the simplest conceptual level) operate on very similar fetch-execute cycles currently only explained in the von Neumann architecture article, the main difference being where/how they each get the instructions and data from. Most modern computers are actually a mixture of the two architectures. -- RTC 22:49 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I would assume that the Z3 used a harvard architecture since it's instructions were read off of tape? I don't know if this is worth adding to the main text, and I won't add it myself as I'm not 100% sure.

Isn't this more a variant of the neumann architecture than a completely new architecture? The only difference is that the harvard model can read and write at the same time from memory. While the neumann model is still the basis of this model. I see the most important parts of the neumann model in the way this architecture handles the difference between memory and the 'working brain' the cpu. Compare this to the neural network model, where no clear distinction between memory and cpu can be made.

Im not that well versed in different forms of computer architecture, but i'm reading some information about neural networks, could someone with more architecture knowledge elaborate? --Soyweiser 30 Jan 2005

 * Actually the Harvard architecture is older than the von Neumann architecture not newer. When first introduced, the von Neumann offered one major advantage over the Harvard: it "stored program" in the the same memory as data - making a program just another kind of data that programs could load/manipulate/output. The original Harvard architecture machines used physically separate memorys, usually with different and incompatible technologies, making it impossible for programs to access the program memory as data. This difference made von Neumann machines much easier to program and quickly resulted in the decline of Harvard machines. It was only much later (with the introduction of instruction caches or in special applications like digital signal processing) where the issue of speed reintroduced Harvard architecture features. -- RTC 07:42, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, you're right -- the only difference between Harvard architecture vs. Princeton architecture is "data and code all mixed up in one memory" vs. "data over here, programs over there in that completely distinct memory" . So ... what's the difference between Princeton architecture vs. von Neumann architecture, if any? --DavidCary 02:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The article doesn't explain the origins or timeframe of the architecture, hence the confusion about before/after Von Neumann architecture. I can't add this myself since this is the information I'm looking for!82.18.196.197 11:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

 * In the introductory paragraph it states the origin:
 * The term originated from the Harvard Mark I relay-based computer, which stored instructions on punched tape (24 bits wide) and data in electro-mechanical counters (23 digits wide).
 * Click on the link for the timeframe in which that computer was made. -- RTC 04:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Ads
It seems to me like the Microchip Technology mentions are a type of free Advertising. Should they really be a part of this article? Mr. Shoeless (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

 * They don't strike me as advertising - they're just given as examples of Harvard-architecture processors, and even the advantages mentioned are pretty much just "for the niche in which these chips are used, here's some reasons why a Harvard architecture can be an advantage", not "hey, buy these chips, they're good". Guy Harris (talk) 03:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Article Quality and Expansions
Could someone please put at least one sentence of history here, what year was this (was it prior to von Neumann?) and the source (a citation like the von Neumann article has would be ideal.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.98.21 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I think this a good, well-written article. I do think however it could be a little better laid-out. Some of the comments on here are pretty valid and they should perhaps be incorporated into the articles. --Gantlord 13:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion regarding &]]! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.

relation between architecture and instruction set.
Is there a relation between the instruction set (RISC and CISC) and the architecture of the processor/microcontroller? I find Harvard architecture processors with RISC instruction set and Von neumann architecture processors with CISC instruction set (I'm not sure if this is always true). Is there a reason relating the architecture to the instruction set?

 * No, there is no relationship (e.g., RISC = Harvard / CISC = von Neumann). You can build either of them either way. The PowerPC, SPARC, and ARM are RISC and von Neumann. Seymour Cray's machines were RISC (although the term had not yet been invented when he designed most of them) and von Neumann. I don't believe the Harvard Mark I was RISC as it had some rather complex instructions (e.g., interpolate value from function tape) and it was clearly Harvard.

 * The issue gets complex with modern machines that use cache. Both the Pentium and PowerPC are considered to be von Neumann, from the point of view of the programmer, but run internally using instruction and data caches as Harvard. The Pentium is CISC and the PowerPC is RISC. To make it even more complex, current Pentium implementations "translate" the CISC instructions from the instruction cache into RISC like microinstructions, before actually executing them. -- RTC 04:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarized?
This whole article is plagiarised from its primary source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.139.164 (talk) 09:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Evidence, please. Tell us where this primary source may be found so we can evaluate your claim. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:46, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Contemporary examples?
If there are any currently used examples of the Harvard computer architecture, it might be nice to add such a section. DouglasHeld (talk) 08:11, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

 * In what way do you find Harvard architecture to be lacking in currently used examples of the Harvard computer architecture? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:16, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph in re: initialization
The introductory paragraph has a poorly informed sentence "These early machines had data storage entirely contained within the central processing unit, and provided no access to the instruction storage as data. Programs needed to be loaded by an operator; the processor could not initialize itself." I can supply the information about why this is mistaken but I'm having no luck finding the right words.

There was no (Programmable) Read Only Memory available for early machines. *All* early computers of every architecture relied on an operator to use a manual method to load a handful of instructions into the ubiquitous magnetic core memory to instruct the machine to read more instructions instructions from an easily controlled I/O device sometimes followed by more from a more difficult to control I/O device. This process analogous to pulling itself up by its bootstraps is the origin of "booting" a machine. Then, as now, the processor's program counter was reset to the same address at power-on, even if manually. Magnetic core memory was volatile on a scale of days rather than microseconds. The use of program memory was typically organized to avoid overwriting the manually entered instructions so that the machine could be restarted more easily, at least Tuesday through Friday, and frequently after a 2 day weekend, but this wasn't usually reliable after a 3 day weekend or any longer period.

The manually entered bootstrap code for a Harvard Architecture machine has more instructions than for a Von Neuman engines because data fetched from a device in I/O space must be loaded to register before writing to data memory, and then when enough bytes are available, subsequently written to program memory. since these instructions were typically entered by a bank of toggle switches with a bank of neon lights to provide a visible feedback, each instruction was time consuming to enter. PolychromePlatypus 22:29, 15 August 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PolychromePlatypus (talk • contribs)

 * "ubiquitous magnetic core memory"

 * Magnetic-core memory first appeared in 1953. The machine that gave the "Harvard architecture" the "Harvard" in its name, the Harvard Mark I (which is mentioned in the paragraph that contains the sentence to which you're objecting), was finished in 1944, so the first Harvard architecture machine was created at a time when magnetic-core memory was not only not ubiquitous, it was nonexistent.

 * The instruction memory of the Mark I was a punched paper tape; the instructions operated on a set of separate storage registers (the "electro-mechanical counters" referred to in this article's introductory paragraph), which couldn't contain instructions. There were also dials that could be set to hold constant values.

 * So, in fact, the "poorly informed" sentence is entirely correct when talking about the Harvard Mark I. The data storage - the registers - were within the processing unit, and the instruction storage was a paper tape that could not, in fact, be read as data by instructions on that paper tape.

 * Some other examples of those early Harvard architecture machines are the Zuse Z1, Zuse Z2, Zuse Z3, and Zuse Z4 (punched-film reader for instructions, separate memory for data). Guy Harris (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

 * I.e., the Harvard architecture machines cannot load any instructions, as the instruction memory is read-only to the machine - the machine can't fill in holes or punch holes in the tape put into the machine by the operator. There is no, and can be no, "manually entered bootstrap code for a Harvard Architecture machine", as the instruction memory really is read-only, either because it's physically hard to modify (punched paper tape or punched film, for example), or impossible to modify (core rope memory), or is attached to a memory bus that does not support write operations.

 * A machine with a modified Harvard architecture of the first type ("Split-cache (or almost-von-Neumann) architecture") obviously can have boot code, as the memory for instructions and data is the same (at most, it might have to do instruction cache flushes or otherwise ensure that nothing from the region of memory into which the code is being read is in the instruction cache). A machine with a modified Harvard architecture of the second type ("Instruction-memory-as-data architecture") could have boot code that writes into the instruction memory, and a machine with a modified Harvard architecture of the third type (" and "Data-memory-as-instruction architecture") could have boot code that runs in one segment but writes code to another segment, but this page isn't about modified Harvard architecture machines, it's about pure Harvard architecture machines, where the machine is completely incapable of loading or modifying code. Guy Harris (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Well... almost. Definitely incapable of modifying code, and the CPU running the program is definitely incapable of loading code, but that doesn't mean that the machine as a whole is incapable of loading code. It is possible to have dedicated hardware that loads the (read only to the actual processor, writable by the dedicated hardware) code from front panel switches, teletype tape, etc. I am not sure if any of the old computers ever actually did this but it is possible. Perkin Elmer had a special version of their minicomputer that actually had an EPROM programmer and a small UV lamp permanently built into the hardware that could erase and reprogram the (read only to the CPU) EPROM that held the boot code without removing the chip. This was done with the CPU totally shut down. This wasn't actually Harvard, of course, just RAM and ROM in the same address space. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

 * There is a similar situation with some modernish microcontrollers. While they don't actually have a Harvard architecture with separate data paths, often the code is in some kind or (to the CPU) ROM but you can use external hardware to, say, pull a normally 5V line to 12V and enter a special mode where you can change the contents of the "ROM". And of course many of the newer microcontrollers have the boot code in flash that the CPU can change, but special hardware makes one small part of the flash unwritable except at the factory. This typically holds a tiny bit of code that that loads new boot code into flash from USB or serial. Still not Harvard, of course, just writable flash, unwritable flash, and RAM in the same address space.

 * Change "machine" to "CPU" and the above is 100% accurate in all cases. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Note about STCMicro
I removed a note that some "8051-compatible microcontrollers from STC have dual ported Flash memory" in revision 912725050. In revision 912725050, Guy Macon restored it. In the name of brevity, I might have gotten a little sloppy and not given sufficient rationale in my description of the change. I don't want to start an edit war by reverting the most recent change without a discussion, so here goes again:
 * The most glaring problem was that the template should not have been used. This has since been changed to an  template by a third editor, but I still don't think it makes sense as a footnote.
 * Another issue that I didn't really touch on in my change description is that it's not clear the note is accurate (and it's certainly not sourced). Actual dual-ported flash is uncommon in micros and nothing I can find indicates that the devices in question use it.
 * The final concern was that the note reads, to me at least, as if this setup (connecting flash to a core's instruction bus, possible through a cache, as well as the data bus via a peripheral or SFR) is exclusive to or an innovation of these micros. On the contrary, I don't think they're even a notable example; I only found two references to STCMicro on English Wikipedia: a single line in a disambiguation page and a picture and reference link on Intel MCS-51. Most other examples in the article cite more than a single instance or at least point to something more notable.

A more generic discussion of the instruction and data busses on typical flash-based microcontrollers would be useful and could certainly cite examples, but I don't think this parenthetical belongs in the article in its current form.

--50.239.58.122 (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Thank you for discussing this, and I am certainty open to having my mind changed.
 * I think the key question is whether the statement...
 * "The IAP lines of 8051-compatible microcontrollers from STC have dual ported Flash memory, with one of the two ports hooked to the instruction bus of the processor core, and the other port made available in the special function register region."
 * ...implies, as 50.239.58.122 thinks it does...
 * "the note reads, to me at least, as if this setup (connecting flash to a core's instruction bus, possible through a cache, as well as the data bus via a peripheral or SFR) is exclusive to or an innovation of these micros."
 * To me it reads the same as "Philadelphia has an NFL football team, the Eagles" not implying that having a team is unique to Philadelphia.
 * One possible solution would be to say that "Some cites have NFL teams. Example include the Philadelphia Eagles, Dallas Cowboys, and Seattle Seahawks." Could we do something similar here, listing multiple 8051-compatible microcontrollers with dual ported Flash memory? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

The Myth of the Harvard Architecture
The claims made in regard to the meaning, origins, and benefits claimed for the so-called 'Harvard architecture' have bothered me for years, from both technical and historical perspectives. Starting 2019 I spent 2 years researching this topic, and then a year getting the resulting paper 'The Myth of the Harvard Architecture' through the peer-review process of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing (considered the 'journal of record' for computing history) and it has just been published. If you don't have access to that journal you can download a pre-publication version from my own website here: http://metalup.org/harvardarchitecture/The%20Myth%20of%20the%20Harvard%20Architecture.pdf. Please read it.

I believe this is the only peer-reviewed research paper on the subject of the 'Harvard architecture' and on that basis alone should be considered a significant resource.

Frankly, based on the findings from my research (which lists 40+ references), I would like to re-write this whole Wikipedia article, which perpetuates several of the myths I exposed. I would prefer it if others would read my paper and make changes, but if I don't see anyone else taking up the baton I will start to make changes. Rpawson (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harvard architecture


text:
Zamboanga Peninsula

Zamboanga Peninsula (Lawis sa Zamboanga.; Peninsula de Zamboanga; Tangway ng Zamboanga) is an administrative region in the Philippines, designated as Region IX. It consists of three provinces (Zamboanga del Norte, Zamboanga Sibugay and Zamboanga del Sur) including four cities (Dapitan, Dipolog, Pagadian, Isabela) and the highly urbanized Zamboanga City. The region was previously known as Western Mindanao before the signing of Executive Order No. 36 of 2001. The city of Zamboanga was designated as the regional center until Pagadian was designated as its new regional center, although Zamboanga City remains the region's cultural, commercial, economic, and educational center.

Designation
Zamboanga Peninsula Regional Development Plan 2023–2028.

Ancient era
During the ancient era, the Zamboanga peninsula was a vast territory home to various ethnic groups – the largest of which was the Subanen people. Later on, the southern coastal areas of the region were under the influence of the Javanese Majapahit Empire, although the empire never did conquer the area.

Sultanate of Maguindanao era
In the 14th century, the Sultanate of Sulu ruled the southwestern sections of the peninsula. By the late 15th century and early 16th century, Malay missionaries further spread Islam in the southern Philippines. Sharif Kabungsuwan, a Johore-born missionary of Malay and Arab descent established the Sultanate of Maguindanao, which the entire island of Mindanao is named after. The sultanate also occupied the entire island except present-day Caraga region, stretching from the Zamboanga Peninsula to Davao Oriental, while the Sultanate of Sulu lost its territories in Zamboanga. Maguindanao's sultans provided Mindanao fierce armed resistance against the Spanish occupation, especially under the lead of Muhammad Kudarat. They soon allied themselves with the Sulu sultanate. The Muslim natives of the region were collectively known as Moros by the Spanish, meaning "Moor", though the Iberian Moors and the Philippine Muslims had little cultural connection outside of following Islam. A large chunk of the Spanish–Moro conflict, the war between the Spanish and Mindanao's Muslim natives took place in the Zamboanga Peninsula.

Spanish rule
In 1569 Zamboanga was chosen as the site of the Spanish settlement and garrison on La Caldera (now called Barrio Recodo). Zamboanga was one of the main strongholds in Mindanao, supporting colonizing efforts in the south of the island and making way for Christian settlements. It also served as a military outpost, protecting the island against foreign invaders and Moro pirates and their Chinese allies. The province, named and centered on Zamboanga City was partly founded by Peruvian soldiers brought by Sebastián Hurtado de Corcuera.

The Zamboanga Peninsula played a central role in the Spanish–Moro conflict. It was the site of constant battling between Spanish soldiers and Moro pirate raids. While the Spanish successfully established churches in the region, they suffered heavily at the hands of Moro raiders, and had to repeatedly withdraw from the region. While the Spanish achieved a tactical victory by launching several attacks against the Sultanate of Sulu, constant fighting and attacks persisted, giving the Moros a psychological victory.

Province of Zamboanga
After the United States annexed the Spanish East Indies in 1898, the peninsula hosted a briefly independent state called the Republic of Zamboanga. It was incorporated by the Insular Government into the Moro Province, which consisted of the central and western parts of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago. The name and status of Moro Province were changed to the Department of Mindanao and Sulu on August 16, 1916, causing Zamboanga to become a separate province.

In 1942, the Zamboanga Peninsula along with the rest of the Philippine Islands was occupied by the Empire of Japan at the beginning of the Second World War. The Peninsula was liberated in 1945 by joint American and Philippine Commonwealth forces fighting against the Imperial Japanese Army.

On June 6, 1952, the province was partitioned into Zamboanga del Norte and Zamboanga del Sur, while the chartered city of Zamboanga became part of Zamboanga del Sur.

Region
Together with the Sulu Archipelago, the provinces that formerly made up Zamboanga Province were re-organised into Region IX by order of Presidential Decree No. 1 as part of the Integrated Reorganization Plan of President Ferdinand Marcos, that was signed on September 24, 1972.

From 1975 to 1989, the old Region IX (Western Mindanao) was further divided into two sub-regions by Presidential Decree No. 8233 dated August 21, 1975. Sub-Region IX-A consisted of Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-Tawi with Jolo, Sulu, as the sub-regional center, while Sub-Region IX-B consisted of the provinces of Zamboanga del Norte, Zamboanga del Sur and Zamboanga Sibugay, with the chartered city of Zamboanga City as the sub-regional centre.

Present
In 2001, Zamboanga Sibugay, was created from the province of Zamboanga del Sur with Ipil as the seat of government with the virtue of Republic Act No. 8973.

In the same year, the residents of Basilan opted to join the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM) in a plebiscite. However, the citizens of the capital, Isabela, did not want to join so the city remained a part of this region as a result of Executive Order No. 36 last until 2014 only.

In 2004, Pagadian officially became the Regional Center for Region IX- Zamboanga Peninsula, despite opposition from Zamboanga City, the former Regional Center.

Regional center issue
In 1978, Presidential Decree No. 1555 transferred Region IX's regional center from Jolo, Sulu to Zamboanga City.

Executive Order (EO) No. 429 was issued in 1990 by President Corazon Aquino which provided for the reorganization of the administrative regions in Mindanao. It declared that Western Mindanao would comprise Zamboanga City, Lanao del Norte, Misamis Occidental, Zamboanga del Sur, Zamboanga del Norte, Basilan, and the cities comprising those provinces. It also declared that Pagadian City shall serve as the new regional center.

In 1996, President Fidel Ramos issued EO No. 325 which reorganized the Regional Development Councils (RDCs). The Implementing Rules and Regulations (IRR) of EO No. 325 also declared Zamboanga City as the regional center in Western Mindanao.

In 2001, President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo signed EO No. 36 which reorganized and renamed Western Mindanao to Zamboanga Peninsula. It was silent on the issue of regional government centers. Memorandum Circular No. 75, signed in 2004 by Executive Secretary Eduardo Ermita, directed the transfer of regional offices from Zamboanga City to Pagadian citing EO 429 as its legal basis.

A moratorium on the transfer under Memorandum Circular No. 11 was issued on December 22, 2010, citing the high economic and social costs that the employees were experiencing in maintaining two residences and in fully transferring to Pagadian. It further directed all regional offices that are already in Pagadian to continue their operations.

On March 3, 2011, the Regional Development Council IX endorsed Zamboanga City as the regional center of Zamboanga Peninsula. This endorsement remains unacted to date.

National Economic and Development Authority Regional Director Arturo Valero stated that “even if Zamboanga City is not the regional center, the city will still grow” and that the city should better focus on being a commercial and industrial center.

On June 30, 2020, Malacañang, under President Rodrigo Duterte, lifted Memorandum Circular No. 11 (issued by previous administration), allowing the remaining regional offices to transfer to Pagadian after almost 15 years. However, the departments of Trade and Industry, Tourism, and Labor and Employment will remain in Zamboanga City, being the region's center of commerce and industry.

On April 20, 2023, a Moratorium was imposed on the transfer of regional government offices from Zamboanga City to Pagadian City. The Dalipe Brothers have lobbied for the suspension, arguing that there is a need to reevaluate the implementation of the full transfer of the offices relative to the ongoing devolution of national government offices.

According to the Palace memorandum, the Moratorium also intends to provide an opportunity to study and re-assess the justifications for, as well as the implications of the transfer of regional offices to Pagadian City. Government agencies, it said, are enjoined to suspend the relocation of their regional offices from Zamboanga City to Pagadian City "pending the study of the political, economic, and social implications of said transfer."

"The regional offices that are already in Pagadian City shall continue to operate." The circular added. Dalipe said six regional government offices shall remain in Zamboanga City.

Following the newly imposed moratorium, both Mayor Dalipe and Majority Leader Congressman Mannix Dalipe vowed to exhaust all measures to reverse the ongoing transfer and maintain Zamboanga City as the regional center of Zamboanga Peninsula.

Geography
The region is located on the western part of the island of Mindanao, that lies between the Moro Gulf (part of the Celebes Sea) and the Sulu Sea. Along the shores of the peninsula are numerous bays and islands of varying sizes. The peninsula is connected to the rest of Mindanao through an isthmus situated between Panguil Bay and Pagadian Bay. The region consists of the three Zamboanga provinces and the highly urbanized independent city of Zamboanga, and the boundary between the peninsula and mainland is artificially marked by the border between the provinces of Zamboanga del Sur and Lanao del Norte. The province of Misamis Occidental occupies the northeast corner of the geographic peninsula, but is part of the Northern Mindanao administrative region, which also includes Misamis Oriental on the Mindanao mainland, formerly both part of pre-1929 Misamis (province) along the shores of Iligan Bay.

Provinces
Zamboanga Peninsula comprises 3 Provinces; 1 independent, chartered and highly urbanized city; 3 component cities; 67 municipalities and 1,904 barangays.

Cities

Isabela is a component city and the former capital of the province of Basilan. In 2017, the seat of Basilan's government was moved to Lamitan. Isabela continues to be under the jurisdiction of Basilan for the administration of provincially devolved services and functions, but for the administration of regional services, the city is part of the Zamboanga Peninsula Region while the rest of Basilan is under the authority of the Bangsamoro Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao.

Isabela was the southernmost outpost of the Spanish in the Philippines until the fall of Jolo in 1878. It hosted Catholic residents since 1637, and a Spanish Fort (destroyed in World War II) since 1848, It also was the primary naval base of the Spanish in Mindanao until 1899. Named after Queen Isabella II, the city is the southernmost predominantly Christian enclave of the Philippines, and serves as an entry point for trade and commerce of Basilan island.

Dapitan is also known as the "Shrine City in the Philippines" because it was the place where José Rizal, the National Hero, was exiled. It is also known for the old St. James Parish and the beach resort of Dakak.

Dipolog, capital of Zamboanga del Norte, is known for their abundance of orchids, thus it is called "Orchid City of the South" or "Orchid City". They have their nature spots and historical spots, such as Dipolog Cathedral, Dipolog Boulevard, Cogon Park, Japanese Park, Plaza Magsaysay, the Sungkilaw Falls, and the 3,003 steps to Linabo Peak.

Pagadian is known as the "Little Hong Kong of the South" because of its topographical feature that is reminiscent of Hong Kong. It also has an affluent Chinese community that officially celebrates the Chinese Lunar New Year.

Zamboanga City is the only Independent, chartered city and highly urbanized city in the region. The city is the lone member of BIMP-EAGA in the Zamboanga Peninsula. Zamboanga City generates more than half of the economy of the region. It also has the largest airport and seaport and the city in the region with most investors.

Additionally, the region is also highlighted by its three key municipalities, namely Sindangan, Ipil, and Molave, all of which are first class municipalities in the provinces of Zamboanga del Norte, Zamboanga Sibugay, and Zamboanga del Sur, respectively. Sindangan has been vying for cityhood status since 2019, following a rapid increase of its populace and economic dynamism in the recent preceding years.

Regional center

Economy
The Philippine Statistics Authority (PSA) released the first ever report of the Provincial Product Accounts (PPA) of Zamboanga Peninsula covering the period 2018 to 2022. The release covers three provinces, namely, Zamboanga del Norte, Zamboanga del Sur, and Zamboanga Sibugay, as well as one Highly Urbanized City (HUC), City of Zamboanga, and one component city, City of Isabela.

The PPA results showed that in 2022, the City of Zamboanga accounted for 32.6 percent of the total economy of Zamboanga Peninsula. This was followed by Zamboanga del Norte with a share of 26.8 percent, Zamboanga del Sur with 23.7 percent, and Zamboanga Sibugay with 14.1 percent. Meanwhile, City of Isabela recorded a 2.7 percent share.

In terms of growth rate, all economies in the region expanded in 2022, with Zamboanga Sibugay recording the fastest growth of 8.6 percent, followed by City of Zamboanga with a growth rate of 8.1 percent. Zamboanga Sibugay and City of Zamboanga recorded growths faster than the region's economic growth of 7.5 percent. On the other hand, City of Isabela, Zamboanga del Norte, and Zamboanga del Sur posted growth rates of 7.21 percent, 7.17 percent, and 6.5 percent, respectively, which were lower than the region's economic performance in 2022.

The region has the first export-processing zone in Mindanao. Farming and fishing are the main economic activities of the region. It also has rice and corn mills, oil processing, coffee berry processing and processing of latex from rubber. Its home industries include rattan and furniture craft, basket making, weaving and brass work. Dipolog is home to a number of Bottled Sardines Companies which are being exported abroad. Dakak Park and Beach Resort can be found in Dapitan it is one of the most visited places in the region along with Gloria's Fantasyland the first and only theme park in Vismin.

While Pagadian City is the region's new Regional Center, Zamboanga City’s economy remains to be the most robust and fastest growing in the region.

Resources
The region has vast forest resources and previously used to export logs, lumber, veneer and plywood. Mineral deposits include gold, chromite, coal, iron, lead, and manganese. Among its non-metallic reserves are coal, silica, salt, marble, silica sand, and gravel. Its fishing grounds are devoted to commercial and municipal fishing. It has also aqua farms for brackish water and freshwater fishes.

Area of Growth
The economic fulcrum of the region lies at the center of the peninsula that is the area connecting Ipil and Liloy. Along with its premiere towns of Sindangan and Molave, it has the fastest economic activity of the region. The 50-kilometer link between the north and the south would act as the main artery of economy in the region.

Airports

 *  Dipolog Airport  – is the main airport serving the general area of Dipolog, the capital city of Zamboanga del Norte, in the Philippines. It is classified as a Class 1 principal (major domestic) by the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines. (CAAP)
 *  Pagadian Airport  – is the airport serving the city of Pagadian, the rest of the province of Zamboanga del Sur, and the province of Zamboanga Sibugay in the Philippines. It is classified as a Class 1 principal (major domestic) by the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines. (CAAP)
 *  Zamboanga International Airport – is the main airport serving Zamboanga City in the Philippines. Located on a 270-hectare (670-acre) site in Barangay Canelar, Zamboanga City, the airport is Mindanao's third-busiest airport. Despite being billed as an international airport, It is classified as a Class 1 principal (major domestic) by the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines. (CAAP) The airport is planned to be transferred to Mercedes by 2030, approximately 17 km away from the city's Central Business District.

Seaports

 *  Port of Dapitan – It is owned and managed by Philippine Ports Authority and is the baseport of the Port Management Office Zamboanga del Norte.
 *  Port of Pagadian  – it recently restarted its operations.
 *  Ipil Port
 *  Port of Zamboanga  – it is managed by the Philippine Ports Authority, Zamboanga Freeport Authority (ZFA). it is a center for sardine exports to the United States, Europe, the Middle, and Far East. 25 shipping lines operate via the port, serviced by four shipyards operating within the port boundaries and in Zamboanga City.

Roads and Bridges

 * Zamboanga City By-Pass Road – This by-pass road is a 36.77 km with a 12 meter wide, 2 lane road with slope protection, the route starts at the junction of MCLL National Highway and Barangay Culianan, traversing Barangay Culianan – Sinubong. The project was started on January 9, 2012, and was completed on December 28, 2018.

title: Zamboanga Peninsula


text:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink

__NONEWSECTIONLINK__

{| style="width: 100%; background: #EBF0FF; border: 1px solid blue;"
 * style="vertical-align: top; width: 75%; padding: .5em;" |
 * style="vertical-align: top; width: 75%; padding: .5em;" |

WikiProject Food and Drink is one of the oldest WikiProjects on Wikipedia, beginning its life as the Gastronomy WikiProject in April 2003. Since that time, it has evolved into a comprehensive project covering numerous subjects and concentrations. However, it remains as an association of Wikipedians who share an interest in food and drink related matters who have come together to co-ordinate the development of these articles on Wikipedia.
 * If you would like to help or require assistance, please inquire on the talk page, check the "Ways to contribute" section on this page, or just dig in and start editing!
 * To join the project, sign up at the participants page.

This WikiProject covers a very broad array of subjects, from national cuisines to various food dishes and beverages. The amount of topics that fall under our umbrella is huge, with over 34,000 articles and counting that are grouped into numerous categories.

Some examples of topics within this project's scope are listed below. Many more additional topics exist.
 * Foods, beverages, dishes and other foodstuffs;
 * Cuisines and national cuisines;
 * Commercial food vendors, manufactures and restaurants;
 * Chefs and food personalities.

Some organized activities include:
 * See the Project buttons page for an overview of project pages.
 * The Assessment department and corresponding Assessment Task Force focuses on assessing the quality of Wikipedia's Food and drink related articles.
 * The Welcome squad welcomes new members and invites users to join the project.

The editors and contributors to Wikipedia are the core of this project. Without you, we cannot reach our goal of becoming the premier site on the web for Food and Drink-related information! To that end, we have taken several steps to help you help us meet our goal. The links above provide some ways to contribute.

 * See Deletion sorting – Food and drink to view articles for deletion that may not have been updated yet by the bot below.

 * See AlexNewArtBot – New food and drink articles for the new bot-generated list of newly published food and drink articles.
 * See the new article archive for a list of previous, manually-inputted entries.

 * See the project's Improvement requests page to post articles for improvement.

Our Showcase features the best of Wikipedia featured content, including articles, media and other high quality content! You can click on the Showcase main page link above or go directly to the individual sections by using the navigation bar.

Cscr-featured.png Featured content
is subjects such as articles, pictures, lists, portals, and topics which are considered to be the best of what Wikipedia has to offer, as determined by Wikipedia's editors. Most of the featured content has been featured on the Wikipedia main page or Wikimedia Commons main page.

A small bronze star icon on the top right corner of a page indicates that the article, image or other item is featured, unless the appropriate user preference is set.

[[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|22px |Good articles |alt=Good articles]] Good articles
are considered to be of good quality, but are not yet as qualified as featured articles. Good articles meet the good article criteria, passing through the good article nomination process successfully. In short, they are written very well, contain factually accurate and verifiable information, are broad in coverage, neutral in point of view, stable, and illustrated, where possible, by relevant images with suitable copyright licenses. Good articles do not have to be as comprehensive as featured articles, but they should not omit any major facets of the topic.

Torchlight help icon.svg Did you know...

 * Main project page: Food and drink DYK

consists of a series of "hooks", which are interesting facts taken from Wikipedia's newest content, in the format "Did you know that...?" Something that appeared on DYK was identified by an editor as being from new or recently expanded content and proposed an interesting "hook" designed to catch the eye of other readers. DYK is not a general trivia section, but is only for articles that have been either, created, expanded at least five-fold or were newly sourced and expanded at least two-fold at the time they were featured on the main page.

You can  join  this project or any of the related task forces by adding your name on the participants list by clicking on the Members page link or going directly to the individual pages by using the navigation bar at the top of this page. Also, you can place the User WP Food and drink template on your user page which will automatically place you in the WikiProject Food and Drink participants category.

FA evaluation.svg Assessment task force
The goal of the assessment task force is to grade the thousands of unassessed food and drink articles here on Wikipedia. These articles span the entire gamut of food and beverage topics in all associated projects, a list of which can be found in the to do section. You can join by clicking on the icon in the navbar above.

smiley.svg Welcome squad
The Welcome Squad is a task force that welcomes new members and sends invitations to registered users to Wikipedia to join the project. Templates designed for these purposes are FD Welcome and FD invitation. You can join by adding your name here.

 * style="vertical-align: top; width: 25%; background: #EBF0FF; border: 1px solid #668CFF; padding: .5em;" |

 * colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top; width: 95%; background: #EBF0FF; border: 1px solid blue; padding: .5em;" |
 * colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top; width: 95%; background: #EBF0FF; border: 1px solid blue; padding: .5em;" |

Food and drink

Cuisines

The tool box contains several tools that are designed to make editing articles easier. This page has a range series of activities to help the project, improve articles, become a better editor, understand how to create a food and drink-centered article and what tools are used in the project to make participating easier.

You can click on the Tool box main page link above or go directly to the individual tools by using the navigation bar.

title: Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink


text:
Talk:Mithras

Mithras etymology
I may have made a mistake by omitting the "s" in the etymology I added, but can User:Fullstop provide sources that Mithras in its original farsi can not have three meanings; "love", "sun", or "friend". The pre-existing un-cited statement there, that "Mithras is however a product of Greco-Roman syncretic beliefs, and the name simply reflects the esteem that the Greeks held for the figure of Zoroaster." is extremely POV-ish. Fennessy 19:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I will have to revert your re-addition of a 1st century BCE date and allusions of continuity. Both these theories derive from Cumont (the *original* author of the "Mysteries of Mithras"), and neither of these ideas are any longer considered valid. For the presently accepted date, and for more information on Cumont's hypothesis, see Mithraism. Thanks. -- Fullstop 19:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You posted this on my talk page, however I feel that this is the appropriate place for such discussion. The source you refered to was published in 2001 —— mine was published in 2005. Clearly this is a contentious issue, I did not realise that when first editing this page. However I think that my first suspicion was correct and you are aggressively editing to project a POV on this article. Please discuss this issue here to avoid anything escalating. Fennessy 19:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * 1. The thesis "in its original farsi" is already busted. On multiple levels. Consequently, what 'X' might mean is rather irrelevant.
 * 2. What specifically is biased (assuming that is what you meant by "POV-ish") in the sentence you quote?
 * 3. Cumont's text is over 100 years old. Its not from 2001.
 * 4. The origin of the name 'Mithras' is not contentious at all. Indeed, its one of the few things about Mithras that are not debated.
 * -- Fullstop 21:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I added templates everywhere there are problems with the article. As for your points: 1. Thats your opinion, plain & simple. References? 2. Its a controversial statement that not all people agree with. Just because you ascribe to it doesn't automatically make it true. 3. I meant the source you were using to back up your own view: Boyce, Mary (2001). "Mithra the King and Varuna the Master". Festschrift für Helmut Humbach zum 80. pp. 243,n.18 4. Well as my source showed, thats just not true. I honestley don't know if we are getting our wires crossed here or if you are being deliberately obstinate, but either way if this has to go to a formal mediation, I dont think they are going to take too kindly to someone who can't provide footnotes to back up statements. Fennessy 21:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Question (just to determine what your line of reasoning is): Are you trying to resuscitate Cumont? And if so, why? It would also help if you actually told me why you think the origin of the name is controversial. Your "Well as my source showed, [the origin of the name is indeed controversial]" doesn't get us anywhere.
 * Just take a deep breath and relax. Like soooooooo. :) Now, read my original comment (the one you cross-posted) again, note which diff I have linked to, and take a closer look at what I said in that comment. Note that I didn't say anything about the name. Also, take a look at the edit history of the article. Note what my edit comments say, and which changes they apply to.
 * Answering your questions one by one.
 * Nope, its not my opinion.It is plain and simple, but I can only address it if you specify what precisely you mean by farsi - I suspect you've misunderstood something along the way, and it would help if you tell me precisely what you think farsi means.
 * What specifically is a controversial statement? That Mithras is "a product of Greco-Roman syncretic beliefs"? Or that the figure of Zoroaster was held in esteem by the Greeks? Neither of these is a controversial statement. Why do you think that that either one is?
 * What does Mary Boyce have to do with anything? And when you noted that your source was from 2005 were you trying to indicate something I should be aware of?
 * Well, um, I'll address that when you've responded to #1.
 * And, it would be nice if we could work to improve the article. Don't assume obstinacy, bad faith, pov-ishness, bias or whatever. Ok? Its not productive.
 * Also, have you read the "disambiguation" page at Mitra that I referred to in my edit comment? Did you follow the link behind the 'X' in my previous comment here?
 * -- Fullstop 23:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The etomology part: when you assert that "the name(Mithras) simply reflects the esteem that the Greeks held for the figure of Zoroaster", am I to think that you mean the romans/greeks worshiping Mithra simply meant the word to mean "covenant"? Because that is highly controversial, not to mention un-referenced. The "product of Greco-Roman syncretic beliefs" part is fine & neither here nor there in regards to this issue. As for Mary Boyce, I assumed that was the primary source you were using to to justify your views? You are entitled to your views, but this article needs to be balanced out. And I am trying to improve the article, deleting referenced materal is hardly setting a president of good faith. Fennessy 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * >>when you assert that "the name(Mithras) simply reflects the esteem that the Greeks held for the figure of Zoroaster", am I to think that you mean the romans/greeks worshiping Mithra simply meant the word to mean "covenant"?
 * If you take that full sentence at face value, and take it in the context that it appears, you might find that passage says: a) The name Mithras derives from Mithra who is a prominent figure in Zoroastrianism. b) The Greeks revered Zoroaster. c) with Mithras the Romans thought they were following a religion founded by Zoroaster.
 * The literal meaning of Avestan 'Mithra' does not figure anywhere in there, nor does it suggest that the Mithraists might have known (or thought they knew) what 'Mithra' literally meant.
 * Prompt me on my talk page if you would like to know what Plutarch thought the name meant.
 * >>As for Mary Boyce, I assumed that was the primary source you were using to to justify your views?
 * Which view specifically do you mean? The Boyce citation is not pertinent to anything said in this article, nor to anything under discussion on this talk page.
 * >>You are entitled to your views, but this article needs to be balanced out.
 * Which views? For heaven's sake, please be precise. Given your rather arbitrary yank of a Boyce citation out of context, I really have no idea what you think my views are, or why they should be relevant, or why it is so important that you identify them.
 * And given that the only 'lopsided' tag placed is for a sub-clause that begins with "although", perhaps its time you gave me a hint with which I might be able to to determine what "needs to be balanced out." While some people might be able to read your mind to find out why you added that and other tags, alas, I cannot.
 * >>And I am trying to improve the article
 * It would help enormously towards improving this article if you started talking about this article and what you perceive to be its problems and why you perceive those problems exist and how you imagine they could be solved. I stress this why/how because you have the exasperating habit of picking things out of context, then alluding to them in only the most oblique way possible, and then not answering questions that are asked of you.
 * I need *specifics*, not allusions. Articulate!
 * >>referenced materal
 * "Referenced material" is not necessarily "good material." But I had already explained this to you on your talk page (which you cross-posted above).
 * -- Fullstop 07:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't tell me I'm not being clear when I couldn't be any clearer. The "Zoroaster" sentance is blatant opinion, you are deliberatly editing to omit any refererence to mithras possibly being mithra. And whats more your presenting it like it's a universally held view, which it clearly isn't. I couldn't care less what your personal opinion is, you have to provide references & footnotes on wikipedia if you want to make such claims. Based on your previous edits elsewhere, you have some kind of pro-Zoroastrian POV. I'm putting this issue up for mediation, or finding some other way to resolve this issue. I think you have had this a long time coming but just no one has been bothered up until now to see this issue through. I had hoped to avoid this but its pretty clear by now your not going to be reasonable. Fennessy 13:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

But you've now finally gotten around to properly expressing yourself, so you can safely get off that horse. I have absolutely no problem in acknowledging that I can/have been/am wrong, or misguided or unbalanced or whatever. I do not suffer from the conviction that I am always right, or that I know everything or that I am god's gift to wikipedia. I am none of these things, nor do I have an agenda other than to educate myself, and if in the process I can also pass that knowledge along, then so much the better.
 * Excuse me, but have you *at any time* expressly provided an explanation of your tags? You haven't even provided edit summaries! If I ask for explanation, then the proper reaction would be to provide one, and not to assume bad faith, which - as is now evidently clear - you did all along.
 * What you have just expressed in your last comment is the first and only time you have articulated what you think my bias is. So your observation that you had previously been "clear" is rather off the mark. If you think I should be aware of any previous attempts where you explicitly state this, then please provide diffs.
 * Indeed, I have repeatedly stated that my "personal opinion" is not evident in this article. If you had even thought about that twice, and were not so awfully convinced of your own righteousness and my worthlessness, you might have come to the conclusion that you were doing me a disservice. In effect, you have assumed bad faith from the get go, you have *insisted* on a bias from the get go, which is itself a bias, against me personally, and for your own assumption that only you yourself could possibly represent the "truth." So much for bias.
 * We can move on now that you have identified what you think my bias is. The rest of your comment is unbecoming and unconstructive and if you think anything is "pretty clear" then it is only because you have *JUST* made it so. I can't read your mind, I asked you to explain, you finally have, fine. Lets move on. Ok?
 * -- Fullstop 19:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I ididn't bring it up until now because: a) I was trying to assume good faith. b) I didn't have the time to properly investigate the matter until then. Next time I'm on I'll try to work-out a compromise presenting all sides of the issue on the article. It would help matters considerably if Mithras/Mithraism references were easier to come by... But they aren't. Fennessy 00:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, for whatever reason you didn't bring it up, you then couldn't seriously claim you "couldn't be any clearer," could you?
 * a) your justification that you could only now identify my bias (even though you alluded to it all the while) is not convincing.
 * Either you assumed I had a bias, and had to go looking around for a justification which you only just found
 * OR you didn't assume I had a bias to begin with, but thought you'd throw the accusation at me anyway.
 * In any case, you throw the term "POV" around as if you actually knew what it meant. It does not mean bias. It is not the opposite of NPOV. And adding "may" to a sentence does not make that sentence npov. It makes it weaselly.
 * b) that you "didn't have the time to properly investigate the matter" doesn't wash either.
 * Either you had added the pov/lopsided tag without having a "properly investigated" reason for adding the pov/lopsided tag.
 * Or you were back then already aware that you didn't know enough to justify them, but added the tags anyway.
 * Anyway, where does your not "bringing it up until now" leave you? Are you now in a better position to explain your tags? Are you now prepared to provide a valid contrasting opinion? If so, where are they?
 * At the very least, you have to be able to identify the reason why a statement is not neutral so that it can at all be neutralized. POV/lopsided/tone tags are subjective. They are not self-explanatory. They are worthless without explanation. Which - as you say - you couldn't provide before you had properly investigated the matter. Since you say you have now investigated the matter, lets have those explanations then.
 * Its not hard to find references. And not being able to find references is not a valid reason after the fact. You have already added tags and made statements, you ought to already have a reason for them, and should not need to have to go looking for references now.
 * --- Fullstop 07:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop arguing with me it's getting ridiculous. I gave footnotes in my edits, that gave my reasons for why there were issues with the article. a) The date the Mysteries of Mithras began to be practised is in deispute b) "Greco-Roman Mithras should not be confused with Mithra or Mitra, which although having similar names are not the same entity.[citation needed] For these similar names, see *mitra." This statement is opinion. There are other views on this. c) "the name simply reflects the esteem that the Greeks held for the figure of Zoroaster." Same as for b. d) "It appears that the cult was particularly attractive for low-ranking soldiers and slaves, and dedications from higher-ranking soldiers are rare." Another opinion, how about a reference? e) "Cumont's hypothesis that Mithras was an offshoot of Zoroastrian Mithra has since been established to be untenable" Opinion.

And literary references are hard to find in regards to this subject—— look on the internet long enough for anything and you'll find it. Fennessy 16:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Right off the bat, I can tell you that you have never written an academic paper, or taken the trouble to write a good wikipedia article. You don't know what "original research" is. You don't know what "reliable sources" are, nor do you know how to recognize one.
 * This is the basic tradecraft that you should have down pat, and these are basic things you are expected to know.
 * The fact that you didn't know the difference between "bias" and POV should have already set the bells ringing, but they finally started ringing when you overloaded with "opinion."
 * The irony is that your a/b/c/d/e cruft is all your own opinion. All those objections you made are how you feel. You don't actually have any solid reasons.
 * And a solid reason would look like this:
 * "I think that sentence X is unbalanced because in book Y (page N) author Z clearly states W."
 * Then, if book Y is not a current tertiary source, you will additionally have to establish that your author Z is an authority.
 * This is what I have been expecting from you all along. But because you do not have the basic tools of proper writing in your head, you rambled on and on about how you felt. But nobody cares about how you feel. Your feelings may be real to you, but they are not actually real. And more importantly, they are not relevant to anyone but yourself.
 * Following the realization that you really have no idea how to distinguish a valuable source from a crufty one, I checked your other edits from the past week. That stuff you pasted to this (Mithras) article was horsepuckey, and I won't bother to go into it here again, because you never bothered to answer the questions that I asked of you. But then there is this absurdity. And I can tell that you have never hadthis book in your hands. Not that it ever was reliable. And this is outrageously original research, as is also this. Indeed, not only have you never read any one of those "sources" that you mis-cite, none of them are usable to support what you are saying in the accompanying edits.
 * You've had the benefit of the doubt long enough, I am going to draw a line right now. I have pointed you in the right direction, whether you go that way is up to you.
 * In the last seven days,
 * You have templated two articles without knowledge of the material (your own admission).
 * You have failed to state what could possibly be objectionable about those templated statements (and not just that they "are" objectionable).
 * You have not provided an explanation to support your assertion of lopsidedness. Your assertions of "pov"/"view"/"opinion" have not once been accompanied with a reason why those sentences are "pov"/"view"/"opinion". Nor have you ever provided a balancing or even contraindicatory source. I have repeatedly noted - to no avail - that these tags are subjective and that I cannot read your mind and that without accompanying specifics, all your assertions of lopsidedness are worthless.
 * You have not provided an explanation of the tone tag. Again a subjective judgement with no rationale provided, not even in an edit summary, leave alone a full explanation that the tag itself prompts you for.
 * Not once have you answered any of the many direct and simple questions I have posed.
 * The irony of your acknowledgement that you don't have anything in hand (while continuing to ramble on about "pov"/"view"/"opinion"!) evidently escapes you entirely.
 * You have had seven days, I will give you another two. By that time I expect that you will either have provided the missing information here on talk, or you will have taken down those tags.
 * You have until Saturday 6:00 UTC. I will not acknowledge any response that does not provide material to unambiguously further/benefit this article.
 * -- Fullstop 05:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You have had seven days, I will give you another two. By that time I expect that you will either have provided the missing information here on talk, or you will have taken down those tags.
 * You have until Saturday 6:00 UTC. I will not acknowledge any response that does not provide material to unambiguously further/benefit this article.
 * -- Fullstop 05:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

OK I read the erroneous insults at the start and just skipped to the end, I've definately heard more than enough from you these last few days. Your not a moderator so you have no right to take down the perfectly vaild tags. You can set all the deadlines you want, it makes no difference what-so-ever. Fennessy 16:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Fennessy, Fullstop is a veteran editor in excellent standing. You would do well to read through all of his concerns, and address them in good faith. Regarding the 1st c. BC thing, we can well state that such a date has been hypothesized in the past, but we cannot treat it as a fact. --dab (𒁳) 17:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ulansey (1989) places the origin of Mithraism in the early 1st century BC. Ulansey's thesis is bold, but it is perfectly respectable, and not too outdated. We can say that the origins of Mithraism are suspected to lie in the 2nd to 1st century BC. This nonwithstanding, it only becomes tangible in the 1st century AD. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the origins of the cult lie a century or so before its rise to notability, I don't see much of a dispute here. --dab (𒁳) 17:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Dbachmann, I agree with your edits and think it presents the issue in a more balanced manner. However regardless of how long Fullstop has been editing, we really dont need people throwing around insults, a clear breach of Civility, and trying to maintain a monopoly on an article to disregard Neutral point of view. For that matter failing to provide clear footnotes could be interpreted as No original research. Fennessy 18:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I fail to see any blatant insult. It won't do to exasperate people and then cry WP:CIVIL when they get annoyed. Also, it is useful on Wikipedia to grow some callous, so as not to take criticism of your edits too personally. Let's just focus on the topic, alright? dab (𒁳) 19:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the 'controversial issue' tag really justified it seems to me, the only controversy is between you two. It seems to me (though I have no expertise on Greco-Roman mystery religion of late antiquity) that the article is of a resonible standard though far to wordy in places and poorly balanced, and refocused as characteristics contains not one characteristic.That its differcult to tell who he exactly was isn't really good enough, surely something can be put down.Worship section needs work also as there is little infomation on actual worship as opposed to initiation ritials etc. I feel that the mithraism article may be useful for fixing up this offshot and perhaps a lead can be taken from their etymology section "Although scholars are in agreement with the classical sources that state that the Romans borrowed the name of Mithras from Avestan[3]" I agree completely with Dbachmann comments above (on a side note I think he took offence at the first three lines of the post), espicially concerning reading comments in their entirety. 125.237.164.5 10:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, this will be the last word I'm saying on this subject, I'm throughly bored of arguing with people over this. I don't take anyhing personally on here, but Fullstop definately breached WP:CIVIL(after skimming through the rest of what he wrote in his last post, I'm not even going to stoop to get involved in it). I didn't goad the guy at all. Whats more I agree this probably could do with being merged with Mithraism. Whatever Mithras actually was, it's inseparable from Mithraism. Fennessy 16:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Missing Content
This article was much bigger and well-written around Sept 07. Now it reads like it came from a children's book and is barely a handful of sentences, and there's no justification given, nor anyone complaining of vandalism. What happened? Who decided to effectively blank the article? Unless there's some good reason that all the content was removed I'm going to have to be bold and revert to when it was a real article. 121.45.169.173 (talk) 19:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, the version of around Sept. 7 was fine, but was changed into a redirect some time later since the material was covered at Mithraic Mysteries anyway.
 * I don't think the edits (which were really only of today) were in bad faith. The editor appears to have simply been unfamiliar with the subject.
 * I've restored it to be the redirect to Mithraic Mysteries and left a note on the editor's talkpage.
 * Thanks for the heads-up.
 * -- Fullstop (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mithras


text: User talk:62.171.194.10

title: User talk:62.171.194.10