text:
Talk:March of the Volunteers

"The War"
"Although even popular among Nationalists during the war". Which war? The Chinese Civil War? The last one that drove the KMT to Taiwan? --Menchi 23:25 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Second Sino-Japanese War-WW2 --Jiang 23:36 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Link
I've added a link to "The March of the Volunteers". I've found it on one Chinese music portal. It was very hard for me, because my Chinese is really poor. May be you that reading this topic are Chinese and can offer a better link, may be even official source? Cmapm 03:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Xie3
The correct pronounciation for "xie3" is indeed "xie3" and not "xue4". This is not an oversight as the lyrics were meant to be colloquial and therefore accessible to the masses; "xie3" is preferred pronounciation used in Mandarin nowadays, while "xue4" is employed (usually) as a component of a highly-specific, polysyllabic unit. --Taoster 17:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That was not at all helpful. Next time, give the character you're talking about. — Llywelyn II   04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Transcription of 血肉
Xie3rou4 (or xue4rou4) seems to be transcribed in the text as "xie4rou4". Is this an intentional attempt to mix the two pronunciations, or could it be a small slip-up? Rōnin 17:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * xie4 is absolutely wrong. xie3 is used in colloquial form and xue4 is used in literal words. Being a literal term here it should be xue4. - ✉ Hello World! 05:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

And also of 的
In the recording, "的" also sounds more like "di" than "de". Is it convention to transcribe it as "de" anyway, or is it sung as "de" today? The pronunciation "di" nonetheless seems to occur in other recordings as well, such as in a copy I have of the song "Woniu yu huangliniao". Rōnin 17:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is sang as "di" as is taught in schools to Chinese children in the 1990s. But the official pronunciation of the character is "de".-- A Chinese college student.
 * As this guy said, di is a common alt pronunciation that is usually used to make this song more "folksy" but it's formally transcribed as de. — Llywelyn II   04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

And 筑
zhu2 or zhu4? Rōnin 22:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm changing #1 and #3 temporarily. Feel free to correct them if you have other suggestions. Rōnin 22:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * zhu4.-- A Chinese college student.
 * zhu4 is from PRC, zhu2 is from Taiwan. -- ✉ Hello World! 05:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Typesetting issue
The pinyin is not correct. The breves need to be replaced with carons like they are in the older version.

Heh, Paul Robeson sang this
in his 1949 tour to Tchaikovsky Hall in Moscow. In Chinese AND English. Very cool. I've only listened to a partial sample, does anyone have a full recording? -- 我♥中國 07:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

When written
I removed this statement from the opening paragraph: written in the midst of the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) - later text of the article clearly states it was written in 1934 and was used in a 1935 film, so it could not be written during a war that, according to the dates given, didn't start until 2 years after the film's release! --Canuckguy 18:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Some people consider the war to have begun in 1931 with Japan's invasion and occupation of Manchuria. The dates were possibly added in a later edit? -- Миборовский 19:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Altered lyrics (1978-1982) is not March of the Volunteers
Altered lyrics (1978-1982) is not March of the Volunteers. It may be national anthem at that time. But it is not the idea of March of the Volunteers which call for people not willing to become slavery to wake up to fight for free. If you want to put the Altered lyrics (1978-1982) at a place, maybe you can create an article national anthem of PRC, and it can be listed as one of national anthems. But it's not March of the Volunteers itself. March of the Volunteers does not equal national anthem of PRC, and national anthem of PRC does not equal March of the Volunteers. Only when March of the Volunteers is legally adopted as national anthem, then it is national anthem. -建港 (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That is part of the history of the anthem titled March of the Volunteers. Its lyrics are different, but it should be included in this article. The title of the section, "Altered lyrics", specifically said it's not March of the Volunteers. --24.63.227.223 (talk) 19:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Zhong Hua Min Zu
'Zhong Hua Min Zu" clearly refers to "The Chinese Race/Ethnicity", not the Chinese Nation. 75.11.163.127 00:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Zhonghua Minzu does precisely refer to the Chinese nation and very pointedly not to the Chinese ethnicity, which are the completely separate Hanzu. You're confusing nation with nation-state, which (to be fair) is very common problem when dealing with modern China. — Llywelyn II   04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Official translation
I know that there is an official English translation in PRC. Can anyone find it?
 * I have searched "March of the Volunteers site:.gov.cn" through Google. By adding some keywords the following ones seem "official" but different:

Based on s:Template:PD-CN, the official translation is probably in public domain.--Jusjih 06:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ljzg/zgjk/3579/t17846.htm
 * 2) http://www.gov.cn/english/2005-08/16/content_23523.htm
 * The first link is dead. They apparently redid their site. The new version of the page is here. This is a separate page, although its content is precisely identical to your second link. — Llywelyn II   04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

English translation - hope you accept
I hope you consider and accept my translation of the original (and current) Chinese anthem. This translation (in my opinion) better captures the feel of the song without deviating too far from it as in the previous translation of the fourth line.--141.213.198.142 02:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]

 * No matter which version better captures the feel of the song, the 'previous translation' would still be the official translation provided in the government 's website. Thus we need to stick to it. (Note that the subheading reads "Official lyrics")Jerch 16:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The "official" translation is not as correct as the user translation. It is also not as dramatic and sounds silly at times. Just because it's "official" does not mean it should be used. Afterall, it seems like the translation is based on a 1930s movie featuring the song (Songs and Daughters in a Time of Storm), which is outdated. If you compare the movie translation with the "official" version, you'll notice the similarities (a link given in the External links section). Therefore, I recommend the user translation. You can remove the link to the official translation, or just leave it alone. --24.62.238.122 16:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough. In that case, I believe that it would be better to include the user translation in a separate category. The current version is nothing but misleading, claiming a user's version to be 'official'. I might as well translate it into French, and say that my version is the 'official lyrics', French translation.Jerch 03:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I moved the reference link to the characters side of the table.--24.62.238.122 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Worth pointing out that the guy who gave us the "official version" gave two links to two "official" versions. — Llywelyn II   04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Should the Paul Robeson lyrics be listed?
A user removed it. What does the community think? It was moved to the main box with the official lyrics. I agree it doesn't belong there. But I think it does merit inclusion within the article, just in a different section.

[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]

--Gary123 (talk) 03:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Updating the transcripts above with corrections according to my listening of Robeson’s Chee Lai on YouTube:

[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]

Majiaerhao (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Someone keeps removing the Robeson lyrics, without providing an explanation on the talk page. In fact those lyrics should be regarded as a semi-official translation. Robeson did NOT write those lyrics but is simply the most famous singer of it. They were written by a Chinese Communist and included in a Chinese folksong book in english. The book Tales from Camp Wo-Chi-Ca goes into more details about it and can be used as a source. --Gary123 (talk) 06:40, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be included. It should, however, not be treated as semi-official, demi-official, semi-demi-official, or anything else with anything similar to "official" anywhere near it. Edit: Seems to have been made by Liu with some feedback from Tian. So... kinda official. — Llywelyn II   04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Edit: If we can find room for it. Right now, the page is kind of falling off the right side, so alt lyrics would need to go in a footnote or just settle for a link. Maybe if we can introduce more line breaks... — Llywelyn II   17:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

More alt lyrics
Here's another unofficial version: [COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED] From Rob Chi's linked article. — Llywelyn II   09:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

And another, with the best punctuation yet for the fourth line:

[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]

From [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EZkuk06ICHkC&pg=PA29 Ch. 2] of Israel Epstein's History Should Not Be Forgotten. (Wuzhou Publishing (Beijing), 2005. ISBN 7508506944.) — Llywelyn II   06:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]

From the soundtrack albums on Spotify. Dragon Seed 16:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.77.66 (talk)

Copyright
Is it in public domain? Tian Han was dead in 1968, Nie Er in 1935. Considering that this song was created as a theme song for a film, it should be copyrighted by the authors or some company. The lyrics will go to public domain in 1968+50=2018.--刻意(Kèyì) 09:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * umm... It's PD. see 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.117.233.162 (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * NO, your page says the other way around.--刻意(Kèyì) 21:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right, he's wrong, and it's wrong: it still thinks the anthem is unofficial (it's not). See the Wikisource entry. — Llywelyn II   12:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

"Volunteers"
I do not understand why the English translation of Chinese National Anthem is "March of the Volunteers". Verbatim it should be "March of the troops of the righteous and brave". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.60.37.226 (talk) 21:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Righteous and Brave Troops are volunteer troops, as opposed to conscripts. That said, most of the actual fighting was done by conscripts. Apparently both terms describe people fighting the Japanese occupation of Manchuria in the mid-'30s and the English translation "volunteers" was published by the film company's in-house magazine at the exact same time as the original Chinese title. — Llywelyn II   04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

"The"
Is the "the" necessary? How is it normally translated? "The" does not appear in the Chinese language. --Jiang
 * moved for the same reason [United States] is not at [The United States]. --Jiang 23:34, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * The United States is not the name of a piece of music. Bands, albums, movies, magazines, and songs all do include the definite article in their title.
 * Yes, this song should have its "the" in the title, just like "The East Is Red" is not at "East Is Red" or "Eastern Redness". See . Jiang moved it to the wrong place.
 * That said, the Chinese government's official organs seem to leave it off (albeit amid several typos including italicizing or not marking the name) and our own treatment of song titles is confused on the point: the French anthem is in the right place, "The Stars and Stripes Forever" is in the right place, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is in the right place, as is "The Star-Spangled Banner", but the Spanish and Turkish national anthems both aren't. It would take a few hours' work and potentially several move battles to get everything in the right place. — Llywelyn II   04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Which dialect?
I think it bears mentioning what dialect specifically is the anthem sung in? If I'd hazard a guess it would be Mandarin - I don't know Chinese but I'm well aware there are several, vastly different dialects of it. If that is the case is there also a Cantonese version? --TheHande (talk) 07:25, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Standard Mandarin, albeit with some "folksy" elements. — Llywelyn II   04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Lead sentence
1) Regardless of whether the definite article is included in the page name (although it eventually should be), the name of the song should be correctly formatted in the lead sentence: as a the title of a song, it needs its quote marks and, inside or outside the quotes, it needs its article as a point of grammar. 2) It is also officially known as the National Anthem of the People's Republic of China. In that use, it is a proper name and not a song title: that use should not include quote marks. If it were to become the name of the page, that use should not include the definite article. 3) I know it's common, but zh remains a badly-done template that should be avoided where possible. Simplified and traditional Chinese are not separate languages; pinyin certainly isn't. 4) More to the point, per, we should not include the Chinese in the lead sentence at all. It's given in the infobox immediately to the right and it's glossed thoroughly in the Chinese infobox below that. There is no good at all in cluttering the lead with a third (badly-formatted) repetition. 5) I'll fix this, but the Wade is badly done. The tone numbers aren't essential—people did generally leave them out—but there's no such word as iyungchün. It always included the dashes between the separate characters. — Llywelyn II   05:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Formatting
We can't just have the lyrics' columns set to the pixel and let everything textwrap at different places. That defeats the entire point of parallel translation. I've fixed that but I've done it by forcing the current columns, which means it's going to involve some potentially ugly/annoying scrolling for some readers. Solutions: The last one is my preferred answer, though I don't know how important the current line breaks are to the Chinese. Is this considered poetry at the level where introducing new line breaks is "getting it wrong"? or is it fine when there are space considerations?
 * Cut the traditional characters. This is a PRC-related page and (while nice) it's not essential.
 * Turn the traditional characters into scroll-over text on the simplified characters.
 * Turn the pinyin into scroll-over text on both sets of Chinese characters.
 * Introduce natural line breaks: There are only a few very long lines and they can be naturally broken at their caesuras.

Once that's fixed and the lines are shorter, the formatting will automatically get much tighter. That will be a different kind of ugly. The solution isn't pixel-by-pixel width formatting (which is terrible for this) or even forced % of the page (which is better), but simply using some right and left margin padding to give the text a little room. — Llywelyn II   17:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Dubious sources
Removed the non-working HK source claiming the image of the song's lyrics was from "the Canton Gazette": it was "the Diantong Bimonthly" or "Pictorial", the in-house publication of the guys who made the film. Also removing Laikwan Pang's Building a New China in Cinema: The Chinese Left-Wing Cinema Movement, 1932–1937 as a non-. It seems like it would be good place to look for sourcing and expansion but the cited page (3) had nothing relevant on it at all and, if the author can't even "The March of the Youth" (青年進行曲) separate from the song that became China's national anthem (as here), it becomes questionable if he knows what he's talking about at all. — Llywelyn II   22:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

This article by China Radio International has some excellent anecdotes and probably isn't responsible for most of them being demonstrably false, but we can't actually use it: one "renowned professor" says he heard Robeson sing it in 1939, which the article blandly reports along with the "fact" that Robeson was taught the song in 1941. (Both are wrong.) The VP of China's Society for People's Friendship Studies may have heard him perform it in Madison Square Garden at some point in the '40s; he may have performed it at some point in Moscow as well; but the VP also goes on to say that he performed it in Moscow for Pushkin's 150th Anniversary... which occurred 11 years after Robeson's death. Let's not use it. — Llywelyn II   04:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's my bad math. His concerts at Stalingrad on June 13th and Moscow on the 14th, 1949, were part of the 150th anniversary of Pushkin's birth. Here's the (much-later discovered) recording of his Moscow performance of "Chee Lai!" — Llywelyn II   19:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

This article by China Today (dead but hosted at the Internet Archive) was also being used for Robeson's section. Liu Liangmo, who taught him the song and attended the 1940 concert, didn't note an encore to "stormy applause". It wasn't translated by the time of the concert, so it's impossible people leaving the concert were singing March on! "boisterously" or in any other fashion. He didn't record it in 1941 as "March On" but as "Chee Lai!" and even the English gloss is "Arise!", not "March On". (Cursory Googling suggest he never called it by that name afterwards either.) Neither this nor the other source supported the claim that Robeson's lyrics were changed to address "African-American" issues. — Llywelyn II   05:27, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Not fully dispositive but worth noting that, although Liu (2010) doesn't credit the Christian Liu Liangmo nearly as much as period sources did for the beginning of the mass singing movement in Shanghai, his party line inclusion of Nie Er as among the group's founders in May 1935 (p. 172) can't be taken at face value: Nie had fled to Japan at the time (as noted on p. 154). — Llywelyn II   06:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Notes on CMN's edits
First, sorry for the wholesale revert: I'd already done several paragraphs and edits through the whole page. It was just easier to go back and restore yours. Some of them, however, were questionable: The current anthem may not be the only Republican anthem but it was the Republican anthem then and now and changing it to "Nationalist" is silly/borderline POV pushing. (The other historic anthems are linked.) Similarly, the infelicitous phrasing when we have an entire article about the Internationale’s status with the CCP. Rolling paper is linked for anyone now unfamiliar with what it is, but it is the common English name of the product and there's no reason to overstate it. You have a defensible point about some linking for common terms such as lyrics, although it seems appropriate for me to appear once at the top given the importance of the division of labor in the songwriting process here. There's much less of a reason for removing links to countries or POV use of terms such as Zhou's discussion of imperialism, which should be linked through for context. Just like rolling paper doesn't need to be overstated but should be linked, vinyl albums are odd enough now to need a link-through: not everyone would understand what discs were intended or that an "album" would include more than one but the middle of this article is the wrong place to go into a lengthy explanation of that. — Llywelyn II   01:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry about my edits, —I thought I was being helpful! But it sometimes is helpful to get a fresh eye. As to the links, I'm certainly willing to defer to you on many of them because you have turned this article into something special and deserve deference. I would suggest that you look through WP:OVERLINK. The section "What Should Not Be Linked," includes "everyday words understood by most readers in context; the names of major geographic features and locations; languages; religions; common occupations..." Among the links which are covered by this are "Japan, "Russia," "New York City," "Shanghai," "Portuguese" and the second links for "Hong Kong" etc.
 * WP:OBVIOUS suggests that things be spelled out. What seems obvious when you've been working on a topic or an article may not in fact be obvious to fresh readers, especially those who are not familiar with the general topic (if they were familiar with the topic they wouldn't be consulting Wikipedia). "Rolling paper" may be British or something, but when I saw it I thought it meant "toilet paper." "Vinyl discs" is probably incorrect, as they were certainly not LP records, made of vinyl, but 78s, made of shellac..
 * Some of the other links present problems of WP:LINKCLARITY. For instance, it is hard for new readers to understand why there are links for "dramatic poem," "poet," "playwright," and others. When they get to the article on the history of Chinese poetry, for instance, there's nothing specific to this article.
 * But the most important observation is that someone coming fresh to the article will have no way of knowing that "Republican" does not refer to the "Republcan Party" or Republican in the sense of not monarchical. How would they know what "Republican" means here? This must be spelled out, and not say that San Min Zhuyi was the "national anthem" for the whole 1912-1949 period. I'm not even sure off-hand when it became the anthem of even the GMD. Likewise, "Communist" Internationale should be explained quickly because it links to CCP.
 * Again, many thanks for the good work on this article! ch (talk) 07:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * LATER: I should have done my homework! The article National Anthem of the Republic of China says that Sanmin Zhuyi did not become the National Anthem until 1943. Before that, according to Historical Chinese anthems, there were several national anthems. So it is not correct to say "Republican national anthem" with a link to 1912-1949." But I leave it to you to fix it to something acceptable to you.ch (talk) 07:20, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Having taken a new look at, I'll stand by most of the choices made. You're obviously well-meaning, but attempts to invoke it to as a general rule-hammer for editors' preference against "ugly" bluelinks are usually better addressed by their changing their own display preference settings. The entire point of a linkable encyclopedia are the links and generally policies can run up against where invoking them makes the article less helpful for general readers. Links from common words like lyrics don't generally help: the link doesn't add information or context. Here, you're right we don't need two sets but the article is precisely topical in the sentence discussing Tian Han's involvement and not including it falls under . Similarly, we don't want every mention of every term or name to always be linked, but—especially given the unfamiliarity of Chinese names and people to most readers—I'd argue that figures like Tian Han (not Mao Zedong or Zhou Enlai) should be linked at least once every few paragraphs to avoid forcing people to scroll up every time they want to look for more. Similarly, the s to Chinese film, poetry, and drama do provide helpful context about the tradition and contemporaries of the people in this article, as opposed to the traditions more familiar to Wikipedia's general readership. (Another editor's recent repairs to more direct pages and more specific treatment, however, were obviously helpful. Making links, e.g., to Wikipedia's treatment of Shanghai in the 1930s might be similarly helpful or might fall under , depending on the situation.)
 * "Rolling paper" is a common English term whose use falls under 's "no need to go overboard" provision. Its potential unfamiliarity with modern less-smoky readers is precisely addressed by its link. Your unfamiliarity notwithstanding (and already corrected by the link), it never means "roll of toilet paper" (note the lack of disambiguation in its page name and lack of alternate definitions at Wiktionary); is much less often called "cigarette rolling papers"; and only needs to be where there's the possibility for confusion with some other use. The only other use noted by the OED is for joints (marijuana cigarettes)—which is precisely the same product simply being used in another fashion—and for freight trucks' documents (only US and now rare), which doesn't require dabbing here. We should eventually have a section detailing the musical qualities of the song but, when we do, we should describe "The March of the Volunteers" as "a march" and not "a musical march" (which in context again falls under the no-need-to-go-overboard provision: note how no one has even created that dab yet), let alone "The term 'march' in the name refers to a musical march as opposed to the month of March or march, applied to various borderlands."
 * A similar issue of context subsumes your objections to the term "Republican". Obviously, in American contexts, you're talking about the right-wing party; just as obviously, when you're talking about Civil War-era China without an American in sight, you're not. The Republic of China is non-monarchal China, is the only sense (notwithstanding FOX News rhetoric) in which "Republican" properly stands in opposition to "Communist", and was clarified by a link for the confused. We're talking about the Republican anthem in 1949 and not before and we're talking about the Republic in 1949 and not after (when it became confined to Taiwan). None of that was misleading, wrongly-linked, or -done. Now, that said, while it's important to mention that continued use of the Republic's anthem (written by Sun Yat-sen) was rejected; while it's important to mention its status as the then- and current anthem of the Republic of China (not "the Nationalists", which just refers to the KMT); it is true that the link to the article on the Republic during that era isn't the main purpose of that sentence. I find it helpful and it is necessary to somehow clarify which Republic we're talking about without making every third word "China": YMMV but I find "It was adopted as the PRC's provisional anthem in 1949 in place of "The Three Principles", the national anthem of the Republic of China, and instead of "The Internationale", the unofficial anthem of the Chinese Communist Party" to be much more awkward than what we have now. You may be right that the separate link is distracting though: we can just include the adjectives as part of the main song link  and people can follow those links to the ROC and CCP pages if they like.
 * I don't quite understand your objection to the album link, given the one that I used directed to a treatment of gramophone records since the 1880s and not to LP record (which it obviously wasn't), but I've changed to the longer but more exact article name for you. If you can find the exact format that Pathé Orient Keynote was using in 1935 1941 and make the link still more exact, though, by all means do so. — Llywelyn II   08:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Edit: I finally understood your objection to the (1912-1949) article. You're confused. This article is only talking about the Republic's anthem during 1949; that anthem was "The Three Principles". This article is only talking about the Republic of China during and immediately preceding 1949; Wikipedia's article for the Republic during that period is titled Republic of China (1912-1949). That's the st way to say China between the official termination of the Great Qing Empire and the proclamation of the People's Republic or the Republic of China from its beginning to the proclamation of the People's Republic, during which period it generally controlled mainland China as well as Taiwan, and it's necessary to link to that article because that ROC is (de facto) very sharply distinguished from its existence in exile on Taiwan. You're quite right that other anthems were used at earlier points in the Republic's history, but no one's saying they weren't and it's beside the point. — Llywelyn II   11:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the source on the music! — Llywelyn II   16:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm ploughing ahead on the Liu Liangmo draft and found Howard's piece, which is part of his larger project. Thanks back at you for developing this article!ch (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I usually feel that a stub is better than nothing and just develop it in the mainspace. If you're building something big enough, remember to put it up on and, if I don't contribute much apart from sources, I can run it through the review process for you. —  Llywelyn II   06:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Will do, though not today. I'm working to touch up a photo; filling in some important details, such as where he died, his family, etc., which I think I can fill in from Baidu, though I'm not sure they're RS. ch (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Dating
I think I've nailed down Nie's contributions, the orchestral adaptation, and the movie's premiere. Still not quite sure about Tian's lyrics. Liang Luo is alone in saying that the poem was composed in January 1935 rather than in 1934: a) that's quite specific to just be a mistake and b) she has pretty thorough treatment and sourcing generally. Perhaps Tian Han began work on it or finished the first drafts in 1934 and his last work was done in January of '35. (That still wouldn't be the final version of the lyrics, though, since another source has Nie Er slightly modifying the lyrics to fit his tune.)

Also not sure which edition of Denton Pictorial (《電通半月畫報》) the ad with the lyrics showed up in. I've seen sources claiming both. Is there a digitized copy of them up on the Chinese internet somewhere? (Also, according to Liang Luo, there was apparently a full-page ad in the Shanghai Shenbao in May. It seems to have been a different ad but I'm not sure.) — Llywelyn II   07:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The eternal defiance
This anthem is historic and should be respected, but people don't analyze history but senses. Eternal defiance is moronic. We should modernize our anthem because we may get that permanent defiance. Can defiance be a permanent national value? And if so are you certain that you will enjoy that defiance when it will come? You can study philosophy to understand that transient urge if standardized might cause future havoc. "Everybody must roar defiance." Ok, but for how long? Are you certain that people aren't emotional? Most people are emotional and not analytical historians. Then it will be so late... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4105:DB00:C8DD:F971:F636:AB2F (talk) 03:48, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Copyright status
There is a discussion at Talk:Hong Kong discussing the copyright status of the US Navy Band recording used in this article. This has come up because Hong Kong is currently a featured article candidate. To page watchers, please comment there if you have anything to add. Thanks, Jc86035 (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * March of the Volunteers instrumental.ogg
 * March of the Volunteers.png
 * 中华人民共和国国歌 (五线谱版).png

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:22, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * March of the Volunteers instrumental.ogg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * March of the Volunteers vocal.ogg

Lyrics
About the lyrics that has been tagged with potential copyvio, I don't understand why. According to PRC's website, only the audio and musical score that are copyrighted, and the lyrics itself should be in public domain. FarhanSyafiqF (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:URAA and c:COM:Licensing: works first published in China (PRC) (or ROC) are still copyrighted in the US since 1 January 1996 (or 1 January 2002), even when such work is in the public domain in China (or Taiwan). Furthermore, the lyrics were still copyrighted in China and/or Taiwan at the time of URAA restoration in either country or both countries. --George Ho (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the servers of WMF's projects, including Wikipedia, are located/hosted in Virginia, U.S., making the projects subject to US copyright laws. --George Ho (talk) 00:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Almost forgot: to make more sense, the lyrics' Chinese copyright lasted fifty years after Tian Han's lifetime. At time of restoration, the lyrics were still copyrighted in either 1996 (PRC) or 2002 (ROC), and the Chinese copyright expired in 2019. But the URAA restored the US copyright. George Ho (talk) 00:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * @George Ho, from the reasons discussed here on the bottom of the page, according to PRC copyright law effective in 1990 the lyrics should have been in the public domain in 1996 on the URAA restoration date applicable to the PRC. This is because of the exemption in Article 5(1) for: "laws; regulations; resolutions, decisions and orders of state organs; other documents of a legislative, administrative or judicial nature; and their official translations".
 * Therefore URAA would not have affected the public domain status of the lyrics, at least as it relates to the PRC. However, I'm unclear on its status in the context of ROC copyright law and URAA. For instance, in Article 106-1: "Except as otherwise provided under in this Chapter, this Act shall apply to works that were completed prior to the date on which the World Trade Organization Agreement took effect in the territory under the jurisdiction of the Republic of China..."
 * Whether "territory under the jurisdiction..." refers to the current territory or the territory at the time of creation of the work of the ROC isn't explicitly spelled out. Fiwec81618 (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The national anthem is neither one of those things listed as exemptions under the law. It's not a decision or a document by one of those natures. How can the anthem be one of those things? Furthermore, the lyricist has been identified, so it's not an exemption under the law. George Ho (talk) 22:33, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. That sounds reasonable to me, though I'm not sure what the lyricist being identified has to do with it. However, the reasoning I described above does apply to the lyrics of the 1978 version, because (unlike the lyrics of the modern version, as far as I can tell) they appear in the text of a pre-1996 legislative document, this one from the 1978 PRC People's Congress (I suppose if needed we could locate an official source for the text of this document). Fiwec81618 (talk) 05:02, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Why does being in an official source of a document text matter, and why would it make a difference? It's still a musical or artistic work. Being in a document still doesn't make the song exempt from the law, does it? George Ho (talk) 06:35, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, appearing in "documents of a legislative, administrative or judicial nature" does seem to exempt something from being covered by copyright law in the PRC, based on the 1990 law quoted above. Do you have a different understanding of that law? Fiwec81618 (talk) 03:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The sheet music is still a derivative of an existing song still possibly copyrighted. It was originally made as neither a legislative work nor a judicial work nor an administrative work. It's not a law or anything like that. In other words, even appearing as part of a government document still doesn't make the song or the sheet music exempt from law, regardless of how it was published. If you still disagree with me, you may wanna ask at WP:MCQ. --George Ho (talk) 04:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I was referring mainly to the lyrics because I cannot tell for sure from the page I linked whether the sheet music was part of the original text of the law (though if the sheet music is, then my opinion is the same law would apply to that as well). I admit I don't see the basis in the PRC law for your position that "even appearing as part of a government document still doesn't make the song or the sheet music exempt from law", because the 1978 document I linked is a legislative document which established at that time the national anthem of the PRC, and legislative documents are explicitly exempted by Article 5(1) of the 1990 (and current) Chinese copyright law. So it sounds like a good idea to ask at WP:MCQ and I will post a question there. Fiwec81618 (talk) 04:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That link you provided was a Wikisource page. To me, the 1978 version is an anonymous work, and being possibly a government work still doesn't make the version exempt from law or an "other document" defined by law. But we'll see what MER-C or another party thinks. George Ho (talk) 05:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * March of the Volunteers.png

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. MER-C 14:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

 * @MER-C, what do you think about the copyright status of the 1978 lyrics (discussed above at Talk:March of the Volunteers)? It appears to me that they should be in the public domain in both the PRC and the US, because they appear in the text of this 1978 PRC law, and according to the 1990 PRC law on copyright as well as the current PRC copyright law, legislative documents are exempt from coverage by PRC copyright law. Therefore, the text should have been in the public domain in the PRC since at least 1990, and therefore is not covered by the US copyright restorations under WP:URAA, since by the restoration date in 1996 the work was already not in copyright in its home country. Fiwec81618 (talk) 04:00, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I scrubbed them to be safe. MER-C 12:10, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Another set of related discussions: c:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Appendix 1 (Revised version of National Anthem) of Macau Law 1 of 2019.pdf. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also c:Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:March of the Volunteers. In particular, this part in the first response is relevant:
 * It's well known that the song's copyrights were owned by Pathe Records, not by its authors, and the PRC acquired the copyrights from Pathe when it decided to make it China's national anthem. Since the copyrights were not owned by individuals, its authors' dates of death are not relevant and the work enters public domain 50 years after publication per Chinese law, which is long past.
 * I can't speak to the veracity of this, but as long as it's true I believe the lyrics could be safely restored. Similar problems (i.e. lyrics being removed) have come in the past to my knowledge, but I'm not sure where you could find discussions about them (assuming they were discussed). It seems that similarly, and less ambiguously, the 1978 lyrics would be free albeit as a government document rather than a collective work. Duonaut(talk | contribs) 06:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

RFC: Revert MER-C's unfair cclean removal
So as the Duonaut provided, despite some Commons discussions are still ongoing, it looks like we do have fair reasons not to remove lyrics, aren't we? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

 * I agree; there appear to be significant reasons in favor of keeping the lyrics that MER-C has not addressed, to my knowledge. Fiwec81618 (talk) 03:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Given this and the tag for the clip:
 * "This work is in the public domain in the United States because it meets three requirements:
 * it was first published outside the United States (and not published in the U.S. within 30 days),
 * it was first published before 1 March 1989 without copyright notice or before 1964 without copyright renewal or before the source country established copyright relations with the United States,
 * it was in the public domain in its home country (China) on the URAA date (1 January 1996)."
 * I think I will restore the lyrics for the time being. If this happens to be found invalid or something, of course, feel free to revert. Duonaut(talk | contribs) 00:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

"Purged to death"
Is the phrase "purged to death" sensical in the sentence "When Tian Han was purged to death during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s, the song was briefly and unofficially replaced by "The East Is Red", and then reinstated but played without lyrics". It is not only confusing, but in combination with the lead of the linked article on purges, it gives the false impression that Tian was executed.

I would suggest a rewrite along the lines "In the 1960s, when Tian Han was denounced and imprisoned during the Cultural Revolution, the song was briefly ..." 2A0A:A546:70AB:0:27EE:D659:3B38:3EAA (talk) 14:12, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

 * Done. ch (talk) 05:03, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:March of the Volunteers


text:
Victory or death

"Victory or death" and its equivalents, is used as a motto or battle cry.

Military
It is the name of a gun battery on the main gun deck of the U.S.S. Constitution.
 * Scipio Africanus used the phrase Victory or death in a speech before the battle of Zama.
 * A boxer Agathos Daimon died in ancient Olympia aged 35, having promised Zeus ἢ στέφος ἢ θάνατον ("victory or death").
 * The Bedford Flag, possibly the oldest extant battle flag of the American Revolution, bears the motto Vincere aut mori ("To conquer or die")
 * Before Washington's crossing of the Delaware River at the Battle of Trenton in 1776, "Victory" was the password and "Or Death" was the response.
 * The Maniots used "Victory or Death" as their motto when they joined the Greek War of Independence against the Ottoman Empire in 1821.
 * The Himno de Riego, which was the Spanish anthem during the Trienio Liberal, the First and Second Spanish Republic ends with Vencer o Morir ("Victory or Death" in Spanish) in its refrain.
 * The letter written by commander William Barret Travis "To the People of Texas & All Americans in the World" during the Battle of the Alamo (1836), ends with "Victory or Death!".
 * Adolf Hitler gave the order "Victory or Death" twice:
 * to Erwin Rommel at the Second Battle of El Alamein (1942);
 * to Friedrich Paulus at the Battle of Stalingrad (1942–3).
 * The 32nd Armor Regiment of the United States Army has the motto "Victory or Death".
 * The 1960 film G.I. Blues features the regimental emblem as Elvis Presley had served with them in 1958–60.
 * The 1986 film Ferris Bueller's Day Off features a black beret bearing the regiment's emblem.
 * Axl Rose of Guns N' Roses has the regiment's emblem and motto tattooed on his left arm.
 * The 442 Field Artillery Battalion of the US Army have the motto Victoria laeta aut mors ("Glorious victory or death")
 * The Chilean Navy has the motto Vencer o Morir ("Victory or Death" in spanish).
 * It was used as a battle cry in medieval Muslim battles and conquests.

Heraldic motto
It is given as the translation of the heraldic motto of several Irish clans and Scottish clans : Mortem aut triumphum ("Death or victory")
 * Clan Gallagher - Buaidh nó Bás ("Victory or death")
 * Clan MacDougall – Buaidh no bas ("Victory or death")
 * Clan MacNeil – Buaidh no bas ("Victory or death")
 * Clan Macdowall – Vincere vel mori ("To conquer or die")
 * Clan Maclaine of Lochbuie – Vincere vel mori ("To conquer or die")
 * Clan McCabe – Vincere vel mori ("To conquer or die")
 * Irish clan Murphy of Wexford and Cork uses Vincere vel mori ("To conquer or die")
 * The Clifton family of Lytham uses

In fiction

 * In Mass Effect the Krogan word "korbal" is roughly translated to "Victory or Death".
 * In the 1984 film The Last Starfighter, the phrase is chanted by the starfighters.
 * In the Warcraft universe, "Lok'tar ogar!" (Victory or Death!) is the battlecry of the Horde.
 * In Hearthstone, it is said by Garrosh in the beginning of games.
 * In Guild Wars, "Victory or Death" was the name of a skill in Guild versus Guild battles. In Guild Wars 2, it is the title of the final story quest.
 * In Warhammer 40,000, "Victorus aut Mortis" is the war cry of the Raven Guard chapter of Space Marines.
 * In the 2001 film Enemy at the Gates and 2003 video game Call of Duty, "Victory or Death" is a common slogan for Red Army Political Commissars.
 * A commercial for the last episode of the final season of the animated series Samurai Jack mentions this phrase.
 * In Voltron: Legendary Defender, "Victory of Death" is one of the two war cries of the Galra.
 * The final episode of Star Wars: The Clone Wars is named after this expression.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Victory or death


text:
George Costanza

George Louis Costanza is a fictional character in the American television sitcom Seinfeld (1989–1998), played by Jason Alexander. He is a short, stocky, balding man who struggles with numerous insecurities, often dooming his romantic relationships through his own fear of being dumped. He is also relatively lazy; during periods of unemployment he actively avoids getting a job, and while employed he often finds ingenious ways to conceal idleness from his bosses. He is friends with Jerry Seinfeld, Cosmo Kramer, and Elaine Benes. George and Jerry were junior high school friends (although in "The Betrayal", Season 9, Episode 8, George says the two have been friends since fourth grade) and remained friends afterward. George appears in every episode except "The Pen" (third season).

The character was based on Seinfeld co-creator Larry David but is surnamed after Jerry Seinfeld's real-life New York friend, Michael Costanza. Alexander reprised his role in an episode of Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee, reuniting with Jerry Seinfeld and Wayne Knight (also reprising their roles as Jerry and Newman, respectively).

Early life and family
George is a son of Frank, an Italian American, and Estelle Costanza, who is Jewish. George twice mentions that he has a brother. Lloyd Braun is a childhood nemesis who George feels was the son his parents always wanted. George's best friend Jerry Seinfeld described Frank and Estelle as "psychopaths", and said in "The Chinese Woman" that, if they had divorced when George was young, he "could have been normal".

In "The Junior Mint", George states he grew up in Brooklyn, New York, where he went to a public school. In a previous episode he mentions he went to high school on Long Island. He met Jerry during his youth, and they remained friends from that point on. George and Jerry both attended John F. Kennedy High School, class of 1971. During their high school years, George and Jerry frequently hung out at a pizzeria called Mario's Pizzas, where the former, having the highest score "GLC", would play Frogger (although Frogger debuted in 1981, well after the pair's high school graduation in 1971). George was picked on by his gym teacher Mr. Heyman, who deliberately mispronounced his name as "can't stand ya" and gave him wedgies. He and Jerry then attended Queens College.

Two of George's cousins appear on the show: Shelly, who briefly appears to visit Estelle in the hospital in "The Contest", and Rhisa, whom George plans to date in order to shock his parents in "The Junk Mail". George talks to his parents about his family in "The Money", during which it is revealed that he had an "Uncle Moe", who "died a young man" and an "Aunt Baby", who died at the age of seven of internal problems. It is also revealed that his mother has a "Cousin Henny". In "The Doll", it is revealed that Frank Costanza was born in Italy and has a cousin, Carlo, who still lives there. As of "The Robbery", George had living grandparents whom he had recently visited, although it is never made clear whether these were his maternal or paternal grandparents.

Personality
George is neurotic, self-loathing, mostly selfish, and dominated by his parents, yet also prone to occasional periods of overconfidence that invariably arise at the worst possible time. Throughout Seinfeld's early seasons, despite doing poorly on his SATs and being afraid of embarrassing himself on an IQ test (as depicted in "The Cafe"), George is depicted as moderately intelligent – he mentions interests in the Civil War and musical theatre, and in some early episodes appears almost like a mentor to Jerry – but becomes less sophisticated, to the point of being too lazy even to read a 90-page book (Breakfast at Tiffany's), preferring to watch the movie adaptation at a stranger's house instead. In "The Abstinence", it is discovered that George has what would appear to be genius-level intelligence but can never access it because his mind is always so completely focused on sex. One Chicago Tribune reviewer noted that, despite all his shortcomings, George is "pretty content with himself".

George exhibits several negative character traits, among them dishonesty, insecurity, anxiety and being extremely careful with money, many of which seem to stem from a dysfunctional childhood with his eccentric parents Frank and Estelle, and often form the basis of his involvement in various plots, schemes, and embarrassing social encounters. George's extremely narcissistic parents only accept things from George when events revolve around them, and George is blind to see that at the same time his parents treat him like a second grade child. Episode plots frequently feature George manufacturing elaborate deceptions at work or in his relationships to gain or maintain some slight or imagined advantage or (pretend) image of success. He is shown to have an intense fear of commitment. He had success in "The Opposite", where on Jerry's advice he starts to do the complete opposite of what his instincts tell him to do, which results in him getting a girlfriend and a job with the New York Yankees. His anxiety is also evident in "The Note", where he begins doubting his sexuality after he receives a massage from a male masseur.

George refers to himself in the third person when under extreme stress (e.g. "George is getting upset!"), after befriending a person with a similar trait in "The Jimmy".

George flees a burning kitchen during his girlfriend's son's birthday party, knocking over several children and an old woman so he can escape first in "The Fire". There are moments where George exhibits remarkable courage, but usually accidentally and often in support of inane lies he would rather not confess to. For instance, in "The Marine Biologist", he goes into the sea alone to save a beached whale because his date, a woman on whom he had a crush in college, thinks he is a marine biologist.

George often takes impressive measures to build and maintain relationships with women. In "The Conversion," he goes through the process of converting to the Latvian Orthodox Church as his girlfriend's parents would not let her date somebody outside their religion. The one relationship he holds long-term, with his fiancée Susan, is the one about which he is seemingly least enthusiastic, as shown by his ongoing attempts to postpone, and later cancel, their wedding, and his rather nonchalant reaction when she dies.

He is interested in nice restrooms, and his personal bathroom habits border on obsession. In "The Revenge", he quits his real estate job solely because he is forbidden to use his boss' private bathroom. In "The Voice", he admits that one of the reasons he is staying at a job his boss has asked that he resign from (for feigning a disability) is that it gives him "private access to one of the great handicapped toilets in the city". In "The Busboy", he claims to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the locations of the best public bathrooms in the city. He proves this in "The Bizarro Jerry", when he directs Kramer to "the best bathroom in midtown" at the offices of Brandt-Leland, even describing the layout, marble, high ceiling, and toilets that flush "like a jet engine". In "The Gymnast", he told Jerry that he always removes his shirt when using the bathroom because "it frees me up... no encumbrances". When working for the Yankees, he suggested having the bathroom stall doors stretched all the way to the ground (letting people's legs not be seen while in the stalls). The obsession even comes up in the Seinfeld reunion staged on Curb Your Enthusiasm: years after the series, George is said to have made a fortune on a smartphone app that directs its user to the nearest "acceptable" public toilet anywhere in the world (though he loses most, if not all, of his fortune to Bernie Madoff).

George and Jerry have been best friends since meeting in high school gym class. The extreme closeness of their friendship is occasionally mistaken for homosexuality; "The Outing" deals with a reporter from a New York University college paper mistaking George and Jerry for a gay couple, and, in "The Cartoon", George dates somebody who Kramer insists is merely a "female Jerry".

Development
Seinfeld co-creator Larry David based George largely on himself. Seinfeld and David created the character as a foil to Seinfeld's character. In the first draft of the show's pilot script, called Stand-Up at the time, George's name was "Bennett" and he, like Jerry, was a comedian. In that same draft, the scene in the pilot in which George and Jerry discuss a woman Jerry met earlier, instead saw George and Jerry discussing their stand-up act. His name was changed to George, and he became a real estate broker instead. George's last name comes from Michael Costanza, a college classmate of Seinfeld. "Louis", George's middle name, is a homage to Lou Costello, whose 1950s television series The Abbott and Costello Show inspired Seinfeld. Although he is often asked whether he wanted to play the character, Larry David has said that he was only interested in writing the show, and doubted that NBC would have approved of his being cast.

Casting director Marc Herschfield stated that, during casting for the character, "we saw every actor we could possibly see in Los Angeles", but they could not find the right actor for the part. Among the auditionees were Nathan Lane, David Alan Grier, Brad Hall and Larry Miller. A 2011 article by Bradford Evans in Splitsider claims those considered for Costanza include Danny DeVito and Nathan Lane, while Jason Alexander himself has noted that Steve Buscemi, Paul Shaffer and Chris Rock were also considered for the role. Robert Schimmel also auditioned.

On April 3, 1989, Herschfield sent a partial script to Jason Alexander, who was in New York City at the time. Herschfield had met Alexander when he was working on the CBS sitcom E/R. Alexander enjoyed the script and felt it read like a Woody Allen film; therefore, he did a Woody Allen impression on his audition tape and bought a pair of glasses to better resemble the actor. Though Alexander thought his audition was "a complete waste of time", both David and Seinfeld were impressed; Seinfeld stated "the second we saw him, like two lines out of his mouth, we went 'That's the guy. On April 10, 1989, at 9:00 a.m. Alexander did his first official audition and met David and Seinfeld. While in the waiting room for his final audition, Alexander saw that Larry Miller was also auditioning. Alexander was aware that Miller and Seinfeld were very good friends, and so figured that he would not get the part. After his final audition, he returned to New York City, and when he landed he received a phone call informing him that he was hired.

Many of George's predicaments were based on David's past real-life experiences. In "The Revenge", for example, when George quits his job in a fury only to realize he has made a mistake, he goes back the next day as if nothing happened; this mirrors David's actions while working as a writer for Saturday Night Live, when he quit and then returned to his job in the same manner. When David explained this to him, Alexander realized that the character was based on David, and changed his performance from the Woody Allen imitation to what he has called a "shameless imitation of Larry David."

In 1998, Michael Costanza sued the show for US$100,000,000, claiming that he never gave permission for his name to be used and that, because of the character's appearance and behavior, he was not treated with respect. Costanza lost the suit, as the New York Supreme Court decided that Seinfeld and David "did not violate Michael Costanza's privacy rights when they created the character".

Susan
George becomes engaged to Susan Ross, an executive at NBC who approved his and Jerry's show-within-a-show sitcom pilot. George and Susan date, during which time commitment-phobic George is constantly trying to find ways to end their relationship without actually having to initiate the breakup with her. In "The Engagement", he proposes to her, despite him not having dated her for years. George tries repeatedly to weasel out of his engagement. In "The Invitations", she dies from licking the toxic glue in their wedding invitations. When notified of her death at the hospital, George displays a combination of shock, apathy, and relief. A few moments after being notified of Susan's death, he says to Jerry, Kramer, and Elaine, "Well, let's go get some coffee." Susan's parents appoint him to the board of directors of the Susan Ross Foundation.

George is very bad at meeting women and even worse at maintaining his romantic relationships and, as a result, his relationships usually end badly.

Professional life
George's professional life is unstable, and he is unable to remain in any job for any great length of time before making an embarrassing blunder and getting fired, and thus he is unemployed for a large amount of time throughout the series.

His original job when the series starts is as a real estate agent; he ends up quitting and getting re-hired, but he is fired immediately afterward for drugging his boss. He always wanted to be an architect or least "pretend to be an architect". He first mentions this desire in "The Stake Out", and claims in "The Race" that he had designed "the new addition to the Guggenheim".

Over the course of the series, he works for a real estate transaction services firm (Rick Barr Properties), a rest stop supply company (Sanalac), the New York Yankees as Assistant to the Travelling Secretary (his longest-running job), a playground-equipment company (Play Now), and an industrial smoothing company (Kruger Industrial Smoothing). He briefly works with Elaine at Pendant Publishing but is fired for having sex with the cleaning woman on his desk in "The Red Dot". He has a very successful interview to become a bra salesman but upon leaving the interview he rubs the fabric of a woman at the elevator who turns out to be head of the company and is immediately fired.

When seeking another job, the interview gets interrupted in the middle and George does not know if he is hired or not, so he decides just to show up anyway, and is soon asked to work on a "Pensky File" that he knows nothing about.

At one point, George works briefly as a hand model in "The Puffy Shirt", and also for his father selling computers in "The Serenity Now".

During Season 4, George gains experience as a sitcom writer as he helps Jerry to write the pilot for the fictitious show Jerry. While pitching the concept of a "show about nothing" to NBC executives, George begins dating NBC executive Susan Ross until "The Virgin", when she is fired. The Jerry pilot is never picked up.

Fashion and hairstyle
George has balding hair, which is less noticeable in "The Seinfeld Chronicles" or a flashback in "The Slicer", but gets thinner as the series progresses. At the end of "The Scofflaw", he starts to wear a toupee, until Elaine throws it out the window in disgust in "The Beard". He also tries to restore his hair in "The Tape", in which he starts using a Chinese cream that is said to be a cure for baldness. His hair is rarely seen styled. His clothing is usually very plain. He frequently wears jeans and Nike Cortez sneakers. In "The Trip, Part 1", he mentions that his clothes are color-coded based on his mood. Several times throughout the show, George mentions a desire to "drape" himself in velvet, which he does in "The Doodle". In "The Bizarro Jerry", George can be seen styling his hair based on an Andy Sipowicz poster.

Art Vandelay
Art Vandelay is an alias first used by George in "The Stake Out". To explain their presence in the lobby of an office building, Jerry and George come up with a cover story based around a man they plan to meet named Art Vandelay, an importer–exporter who works in the building. George frequently reuses the invented name as a running joke. In "The Red Dot", George tells Elaine's boss that he frequently reads books by Art Vandelay, who he describes as a "beatnik, from the Village." In "The Boyfriend", George tells the unemployment office that he is close to getting a job at "Vandelay Industries", a latex manufacturer ostensibly located at Jerry's address. He later tells Susan that Art is Elaine's boyfriend as part of a cover story to prevent Susan from learning that he is secretly dating Marisa Tomei ("The Cadillac"). In "The Bizarro Jerry", George asks an office receptionist to see a "Mr. Art Vandelay" as part of a ruse to ask her on a date. In "The Serenity Now", George invents fake customers, one of whom is "Mr. Vandelay", to hide his lack of sales success. In "The Puerto Rican Day", George pretends to be Vandelay (Jerry pretends to be "Kel Varnsen", and Kramer is "H.E. Pennypacker") to take advantage of an open house to watch a Mets game on television. In "The Finale", the name of the presiding judge is Arthur Vandelay, much to George's amazement.

Reception
In a list of the "50 Greatest Sidekicks" compiled by Entertainment Weekly, George was placed third, behind Robin from the Batman franchise and The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson co-host Ed McMahon. On a Florida Times-Union list of the 50 greatest sitcom characters of all time, George was ranked third, behind Lucy Ricardo from I Love Lucy and Barney Fife from The Andy Griffith Show. In 1999, TV Guide published a list of the 50 best characters in television history, on which George was ranked 10th. The People called George the greatest television character on a list of the 100 best television characters. British comedian Ricky Gervais and Guardian columnist Marina Hyde have both called George "arguably the greatest sitcom character of all time".

For his performance as George, Alexander was nominated for various awards. In 1992, he received his first Primetime Emmy Award nomination in the category Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series; however, he lost the award to Michael Jeter for Evening Shade. He received nominations in the same category the following six years, but failed to win each year. In addition, Alexander was nominated for four Golden Globe Awards—in 1993, 1994, 1995, and 1998 —in the Best Supporting Actor in a Series, Miniseries, or Motion Picture Made for Television category, but never won the award. In 1995, Alexander received the Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Comedy Series, he also shared the Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series with Seinfeld, Louis-Dreyfus, and Richards. From 1996 through 1998, Alexander was nominated in the same two categories, co-winning the ensemble award in 1997 and 1998. In 1999, he was nominated for Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Comedy Series for the last time, but lost to Michael J. Fox for his portrayal of Michael Flaherty on Spin City. In 1992 and 1993, Alexander won the American Comedy Award for Funniest Supporting Male Performer in a TV Series. He was also nominated for the award in 1996 (with Richards) and 1999 but did not win again.

title: George Costanza


text:
Talk:Siquijor

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Thomas Starr King

Thomas Starr King (December 17, 1824 – March 4, 1864), often known as Starr King, was an American Universalist and Unitarian minister, influential in California politics during the American Civil War, and Freemason. Starr King spoke zealously in favor of the Union and was credited by Abraham Lincoln with preventing California from becoming a separate republic. He is sometimes referred to as "the orator who saved the nation".

Early life
He was born on December 17, 1824, in New York City to Rev. Thomas Farrington King, a Universalist minister, and Susan Starr King. The sole support of his family at 15, he was forced to leave school. Inspired by men like Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry Ward Beecher, King embarked on a program of self-study for the ministry. At the age of 20 he took over his father's former pulpit at the Charlestown Universalist Church in Charlestown, Massachusetts.

Career
In 1849, he was appointed pastor of the Hollis Street Church in Boston, where he became one of the most famous preachers in New England and a noted speaker on the lyceum circuit through New England and as far as Chicago. He was ranked as one of the four greatest lyceum speakers, along with Wendell Phillips, Edwin Hubbell Chapin, and Henry Ward Beecher; for some reason, a celebrated fifth speaker, Ralph Waldo Emerson, was not included in this tally. His lyceum lectures for general audiences included "Substance and Show", "Sights and Insights", "The Ideal and the Real", "Existence and Life", and a number of talks on Plato and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. As Edward Everett Hale recounts:

"King said that a popular lyceum lecture was made of five parts of sense and five of nonsense. 'There are only five men in America,' said he, 'who know how to mix them—and I think I am one of the five.' Other people thought so too, and did not detect the nonsense. His carefully wrought lectures are worth anybody's study today. He is the author of another lyceum chestnut. Some one asked him what his honorarium was for each lecture. 'F.A.M.E.,' said he—'Fifty And My Expenses.'"

During those years, Starr King vacationed in the White Mountains of New Hampshire and in 1859 published a book about the area entitled The White Hills; their Legends, Landscapes, & Poetry. In 1860 he accepted a call from the First Unitarian Church of San Francisco, California. In July of that year, he visited Yosemite and was moved spiritually by its splendor. Upon returning to San Francisco, he began preaching a series of sermons on Yosemite, published letters about it in the Boston Evening Transcript, and aligned himself with fellow abolitionist and landscape architect, Frederick Law Olmsted,  to have Yosemite set aside as a reserve. Yosemite would become a California State Park and eventually a national park. Starr King joined the Freemasons and was raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason in Oriental Lodge No. 144 in San Francisco, now Phoenix Lodge No. 144, and served as grand orator of the Grand Lodge of California in 1863.

During the Civil War, Starr King spoke zealously in favor of the Union and was credited by Abraham Lincoln with preventing California from becoming a separate republic. At the urging of Jessie Benton Frémont, Starr King teamed up with writer Bret Harte, and Starr King read Harte's patriotic poems at pro-Union speeches. Starr King also read original verses by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow and James Russell Lowell which captured the imagination of the Californians. In a letter by Starr King wrote to James T. Fields, the editor of the Atlantic Monthly, "The state must be Northernized thoroughly, by schools, Atlantic Monthlies, lectures, N.E. preachers." On George Washington's birthday in 1861, King spoke for two hours to over a thousand people about how they should remember Washington by preserving the Union:

"'I pitched into Secession, Concession and (John C.) Calhoun (former U.S. vice president), right and left, and made the Southerners applaud. I pledged California to a Northern Republic and to a flag that should have no treacherous threads of cotton in its warp, and the audience came down in thunder. At the close it was announced that I would repeat it the next night, and they gave me three rounds of cheers.' ... King covered his pulpit with an American flag and ended all his sermons with 'God bless the president of the United States and all who serve with him the cause of a common country.'"

Starr King's younger brother, Edward Starr King, served as captain of the clipper ship Syren. Capt. Starr King arrived in San Francisco aboard Syren just two days after his elder brother's stirring 1861 speech about Washington and the Union, remarking, "Starr has the brains of the family, and I the brawn."

In addition, Starr King organized the Pacific Branch of the United States Sanitary Commission, which raised money and medical materials for wounded soldiers and was the predecessor to the American Red Cross. A fiery orator, he raised more than $1.5 million for the Sanitary Commission headquarters in New York City, one-fifth of the total contributions from all the states in the Union.

Death

The relentless lecture circuit exhausted him, and he died in San Francisco on March 4, 1864, of diphtheria and pneumonia. His dying words were said to be "Beautiful boy", referring to his young son. Over twenty thousand people attended his funeral and several of his friends including Charles Stoddard, Bret Harte and Ina Coolbrith published tributes. King was first interred on the 100 block of Geary Street and is now interred at First Unitarian Universalist Society of San Francisco at Starr King Way and Franklin Street between O'Farrell Street and Geary Street in San Francisco. In the 1940s, most of San Francisco's dead were disinterred and moved to new resting places outside city limits; the grave of Starr King was one of the very few allowed to remain undisturbed.

Landmarks

 * Mountain peaks in the White Mountains (Mount Starr King, elevation 1,191 m (3,907 ft)) and in Yosemite National Park (Mount Starr King) are named in his honor.
 * A giant sequoia in the Calaveras Grove.

Schools

 * In 1941, the Pacific Unitarian School for the Ministry (Unitarian Universalist), in Berkeley, California, was renamed the Starr King School for the Ministry in his honor
 * Starr King K–8 School in Carmichael, California
 * Starr King Elementary School in Long Beach, California
 * Thomas Starr King Middle School in the Silver Lake neighborhood of Los Angeles
 * Starr King Elementary School in San Francisco
 * The Starr King Parent-Child Workshop, founded in 1949 in Santa Barbara, California, is an active cooperative nursery school and parent-education resource

Churches

 * Starr King Unitarian Universalist Church in Hayward, California
 * Starr King Unitarian Universalist Fellowship (SKUUF) in New Hampshire

Streets

 * Starr King Way in San Francisco
 * Starr King Circle in Palo Alto, California
 * Starr King Court Charlestown Massachusetts

Parks

 * Starr King Openspace, a park in Potrero Hill, San Francisco

Buildings

 * Starr King Lodge A.F. & A.M., a Masonic lodge founded in 1864 in Salem, Massachusetts

Statuary and monuments

 * Thomas Starr King Statue in Golden Gate Park, facing JFK Drive, close to the De Young Museum.
 * King's church, the First Unitarian Church and his sarcophagus in San Francisco are designated historical monuments.

Statue in California State Capitol

As part of honors originally paid to Rev. King, he was judged worthy of representing California in the National Statuary Hall Collection displayed in the United States Capitol. In 1913, King was voted one of California's two greatest heroes and funds were appropriated for a statue. In 1931, California officially donated a bronze statue of King to be mounted in Statuary Hall.

On August 31, 2006, however, the California Legislature approved a joint resolution to replace Thomas Starr King's statue in Statuary Hall with a statue of Ronald Reagan. The resolution was authored by Republican State Senator Dennis Hollingsworth, who stated the reason for the resolution as, "To be honest with you, I wasn't sure who Thomas Starr King was, and I think there's probably a lot of Californians like me." He also went on to observe that King was not a native of the state though, of course, neither was Reagan (nor was Junípero Serra, the other statue representing California in Statuary Hall).

As a result of this resolution, King's statue was removed from Statuary Hall, and the statue of Ronald Reagan was placed in Statuary Hall on June 10, 2009. In November 2009, Starr King's statue was reinstalled within the Civil War Memorial Grove in Capitol Park, which surrounds the California State Capitol in Sacramento. It was formally dedicated in a ceremony held on December 8, 2009.

Works

 * A Vacation Among the Sierras: Yosemite in 1860.
 * The White Hills; their Legends, Landscapes, & Poetry. Boston: Crosby, Nichols & Co., 1860.
 * Patriotism and Other Papers. Boston: Tompkins, 1864.
 * Christianity and Humanity. Boston: Osgood, 1877.
 * Substance and Show, and Other Lectures. Boston: Houghton & Osgood, 1877.

title: Thomas Starr King


text:
Talk:Chronology

Chronology
Make it clear 37.111.246.166 (talk) 16:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Article issues

 * There are far too many entries in the appendices. The "See also" section does not need to be so large it includes subsections. The same with the "Further reading" section with 19 entries. I realize this is a "start-class article" (since 2002), so apparently not very important, but it is an article and overdue for some editing. -- Otr500 (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chronology


text:
COBUILD

COBUILD, an acronym for Collins Birmingham University International Language Database, is a British research facility set up at the University of Birmingham in 1980 and funded by Collins publishers.

The facility was initially led by professor John Sinclair. The most important achievements of the COBUILD project have been the creation and analysis of an electronic corpus of contemporary text, the Collins Corpus, later leading to the development of the Bank of English, and the production of the monolingual learner's dictionary Collins COBUILD English Language Dictionary, based on the study of the COBUILD corpus and first published in 1987.

A collection of other dictionaries and grammars have also been published, all based exclusively on the evidence from the Bank of English.

title: COBUILD