text:
Talk:Dosimeter

Aren't there also non-electrical dosimeters that use something akin to photographic film? They wouldn't be able to be read directly, because the film would have to be developed and its opacity measured. -- Arteitle 12:02 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, but I believe the radiation "develops" the film itself, but I'm not 100% sure. It's like the old daguerrotype-film things where radiation would causse the film plate to develop, it's a smilar kind of behavior with dosimeters like this. Dysprosia 12:09 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Page is too specific to a particular type of dosimeter
There are a *lot* of other dosimeters out there in addition to the type described here. TLD (thermoluminescent dosimeters) are used for low-level exposure, film badges, and various scintilallator-counter devices. I guess I'll add this to my "pages I'll crank out some text for if I find some time." :) -- Kaszeta 13:58, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I stuck a paragraph at the end about film badge dosimeters a while ago, but there isn't too much to say about them. It would make sense to separate the article into subheadings by dosimeter type so that it isn't just missed down there, particularly if more types are added. --Arteitle 15:35, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Recharging
The article says dosimeters must periodically be recharged. Does this mean they use a rechargable battery? Surely recharging must refer to something else, right? I was under the impression that the only purpose of the recharger was to zero the dosimeters. Can someone please clarify this for me? Thank you. Jecowa 11:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Rewrote article to explain operation better and address your questions. Hope it helps.  -- Chetvorno TALK 04:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Multiple edit links
On my browser there are a trio of edit links visible at the bottom of the article. I've just popped into edit mode to tidy them up but I'm stumped, I can't see why they're there or indeed how to get rid of them.

Hopefully a more experienced/competent Wikipedian than me will have the answer. Cheers!

Beccaviola (talk) 00:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

 * It's not a solution, but the explanation is here: "Do not stack more images within a section than the text as this causes the images to continue into the next section and bunches up the edit links in some browsers". --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What about moving the images to a gallery with fuller captions? 21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 22:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good solution, but which one would remain as the lede mage? The two fiber dosimeter images complement each other and the other pair are different views of the same object. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The fibre dosimeter image in the lede ... with a caption that says "Fibre dosimeter, the scale image is displayed below in the gallery" and its caption can read "Scale image of the fibre dosimeter shown above". 21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 10:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good: go for it! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

2013 tidy-up
I've tidied this to changing technologies and use. The EPD for instance is now widely used, and QFE hardly. Dougsim (talk) 08:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Explanation
This article reads like an advertisement, touting the features of a particular model. I see no explanation of how these things operate, or how they are constructed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:02, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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The entire section on Geiger tube dosimeters needs rewriting.
No matter how many corrections I make to the author's awful grammar and communication, I can't fundamentally fix it. Since I am not a nuclear engineer and don't understand how they work, this responsibility sadly falls on somebody else. Anyway, I'm done with trying to make it better, I've gone as far as I can. 2603:7080:413F:69C8:3AD7:E64B:16B3:759 (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dosimeter


text:
Agadir

Agadir (أكادير, ; ) is a major city in Morocco, on the shore of the Atlantic Ocean near the foot of the Atlas Mountains, just north of the point where the Souss River flows into the ocean, and 316 mi south of Casablanca. Agadir is the capital of the Agadir Ida-U-Tanan Prefecture and of the Souss-Massa economic region.

Agadir is one of the major urban centres of Morocco. The municipality of Agadir recorded a population of 924,000 in the 2014 Moroccan census. According to the 2004 census, there were 346,106 inhabitants in that year and the population of the Prefecture of Agadir-Ida Outanane was 487,954 inhabitants.

Agadir is known for being the capital of Amazigh culture in Morocco. It is one of the few big Moroccan cities where Tamazight, one of Morocco's two official languages, is spoken by more than half of the population. The native variety to the region, Tachelhit, is spoken by 222,000 speakers, representing 53.7% of the entire population. Agadir is also a place for many festivals related to Amazigh culture, such as The New Amazigh Year, celebrated on 13 January every year throughout the city, especially in the downtown area. The Bilmawen Festival is another old Berber tradition celebrated in the suburbs of the city. Additionally, the Issni N’Ourgh International festival is a festival for Amazigh films. Agadir is also the birthplace of many of the pillars of Shilha and Amazigh music, such as Izenzaren, Oudaden, and many others.

It was the site of the 1911 Agadir Crisis that exposed tensions between France and Germany, foreshadowing World War I. The city was destroyed by an earthquake in 1960; it has been completely rebuilt with mandatory seismic standards. It is now the largest seaside resort in Morocco, where foreign tourists and many residents are attracted by an unusually mild year-round climate. Since 2010 it has been well served by low-cost flights and a motorway from Tangier.

The mild winter climate (January average midday temperature 20.5 °C/69 °F) and good beaches have made it a major "winter sun" destination for northern Europeans.

Etymology
The name Agadir is a common Berber noun, meaning 'wall, enclosure, fortified building, citadel'. This noun is attested in most Berber languages. It may come from the Tuareg word aǧādir ('wall' or 'bank') or from Phoenician ('wall' or 'fortress'). The former word may also be a loanword from the latter. The Phoenician etymology, if correct, would be the same as that of Cádiz in Spain.

There are many more towns in Morocco called Agadir. The city of Agadir's full name in Tashelhit is Agadir Ighir or Agadir-n-Irir, literally 'the fortress of the cape', referring to the nearby promontory named Cape Ighir on maps (a pleonastic name, literally 'Cape Cape').

Early occupation
The oldest known map that includes an indication of Agadir is from 1325: at the approximate location of the modern city, it names a place it calls Porto Mesegina, after a Berber tribe name that had been recorded as early as the 12th century, the Mesguina (also known as the Ksima). At the end of the medieval period, Agadir was a town of some renown. The first known mention of its name, Agadir al-harba, was recorded in 1510.

Portuguese occupation
In the late 15th century the Portuguese began to occupy positions along the Moroccan coast. In 1505 the Portuguese nobleman João Lopes de Sequeira occupied the area. He built a wooden castle at the foot of a hill, near a spring, and a Portuguese colony named Santa Cruz do Cabo do Gué was created. The site still bears the name of Funti or Founti (from the Portuguese word fonte, meaning "fountain"). The castle was later bought by the King of Portugal on 25 January 1513.

The Portuguese presence elicited growing hostility from the local population of the Sous region, who initiated a years-long economic and military blockade of the port. In 1510 Muhammad al-Qa'im, the leader of a Sharifian family in that had established themselves in the Sous, was declared leader of the local military efforts against the Sous. His descendants went on to found the Sa'di dynasty which rose to power over the following decades and eventually established their capital at Marrakesh. In 1540 the Sa'di sultan Muhammad al-Shaykh occupied the main hill (now Agadir Oufla) above the Portuguese and installed artillery to prepare an attack on the fortress below. The siege of the colony began on 16 February 1541 and was successfully concluded on 12 March of the same year.

Six hundred Portuguese survivors were taken prisoner, including the governor, Guterre de Monroy, and his daughter, Dona Mecia. The captives were redeemed by the holy men, who were mostly from Portugal. Dona Mecia, whose husband was killed during the battle, became the wife of Sheikh Mohammed ash-Sheikh but died in childbirth in 1544. In the same year, Mohammed ash-Sheikh released Guterre de Monroy, whom he had befriended. After this, the Portuguese were forced to abandon most of the Moroccan areas that they had acquired control of between 1505 and 1520, including Agadir, Safi and Azemmour. By 1550, Portugal's only holding in Morocco was Mazagan (now El Jadida), Tangier and Ceuta. As Morocco became less important to the Portuguese, they turned their attention to India and Brazil.

The story of the Portuguese presence (from the installation in 1505 until their defeat on 12 March 1541) is described in a manuscript (published for the first time, with a French translation by Pierre de Cenival, in 1934) entitled "Este He O Origem e Comeco e Cabo da Villa de Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gue D'Agoa de Narba", written by an anonymous author who was captured in 1934 and was imprisoned for five years in Taroudannt (cf. "Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gue d'Agoa de Narba – Estudo e Crónica", Joao Marinho e Santos, José Manuel Azevedo e Silva e Mohammed Nadir, bilingual edition, Viseu 2007).

Moroccan rule
After the Sa'di victory the site was then left unoccupied for years until Muhammad al-Shaykh's successor, Abdallah al-Ghalib (r. 1557–1574), built a new fortress (or kasbah) on the hilltop. It was now called Agadir N'Ighir (literally: "fortified granary of the hill" in Tachelhit.

In the 17th century, during the reign of the Berber dynasty of Tazerwalt, Agadir was a harbour of some importance, expanding its trade with Europe. There was, however, neither a real port nor a wharf. Agadir traded mainly in sugar, wax, copper, hides and skins. In exchange, Europeans sold their manufactured goods there, particularly weapons and textiles. Under the reign of Sultan Moulay Ismail (1645–1727) and his successors, the trade with France, which had previously been an active partner, diminished, and trade with the English and Dutch increased.

In 1731, the town was completely destroyed by an earthquake. After that, Agadir's harbour was ordered to be closed, and an alternative, Essaouira, was established farther north.

After a long period of prosperity during the reigns of the Saadian and Alawite dynasties, Agadir declined from 1760 because of the pre-eminence given to the competing port of Essaouira by the Alawite Sultan Mohammed ben Abdallah who wanted to punish the Souss for rebelling against his authority. This decline lasted a century and a half. In 1789, a European traveler gave a brief description of Agadir: "It is now a ghost town, there are no more than a few houses and these are crumbling into ruins".

In 1881, Sultan Moulay Hassan reopened the harbour to trade in order to supply the expeditions he planned in the south. These expeditions, which were to reassert his authority over the Souss tribes and counter the plans of English and Spanish, were held in 1882 and 1886.

In 1884, Charles de Foucauld described in Reconnaissance au Maroc (Reconnaissance in Morocco) his rapid passage to Agadir from the east:

"I walk along the shore to Agadir Irir. The road passes below the city, half-way between it and Founti: Founti is a miserable hamlet, a few fishermen's huts; Agadir, despite its white enclosure which gives it the air of a city is, I am told, a poor village depopulated and without trade."

On the pretext of a call for help from German companies in the valley of the Souss, Germany decided on 1 July 1911, to extend its interests in Morocco and assert a claim on the country. It sent to the bay of Agadir, (which harbour was, until 1881, closed to foreign trade) the SMS Panther which was quickly joined by the cruiser Berlin. Very strong international reaction, particularly from Great Britain, surprised Germany and triggered the Agadir Crisis between France and Germany. War threatened. After tough negotiations, a Franco-German treaty was finally signed on 4 November 1911, giving a free hand to France, who would be able to establish its protectorate over Morocco in return for giving up some colonies in Africa. It was only then that the gunboat Panther and the cruiser Berlin left the bay of Agadir. Due to a miscalculation, the German sales representative Hermann Wilberg, who was sent to provide the pretext for the intervention, only arrived at Agadir three days after the Panther arrived.

In 1913, the cities (Agadir N'Ighir and Founti) totaled less than a thousand inhabitants. On 15 June 1913 French troops landed in Agadir. In 1916, the first pier was built near Founti – a simple jetty, later known as the "Portuguese jetty", which remained until the end of the 20th century. After 1920, under the French protectorate, a port was built and the city saw its first development with the construction of the old Talborjt district located on the plateau at the foot of the hill. Two years later, beside Talborjt along the faultline of the river Tildi construction of the popular district of Yahchech began.

Around 1930, Agadir was an important stop for the French airmail service Aéropostale and was frequented by Saint-Exupéry and Mermoz.

In the years from 1930, a modern central city began to be built according to the plans of the urban planner Henri Prost, director of the Urban Planning Department of the Protectorate, and his deputy Albert Laprade: a horseshoe layout based on the waterfront around a large avenue perpendicular to the waterfront – the Avenue Lyautey, since renamed Avenue du Général Kettani. In the 1950s, urban development continued under the direction of the Director of Urban Planning Morocco, Michel Ecochard.

After 1950 and the opening of the new commercial port, the city grew with fishing, canning, agriculture, and mining. It also began to open up to tourism due to its climate and hotel infrastructure. Several years later from 1950 to 1956 Agadir organized the Grand Prix of Agadir and, from 1954 to 1956, the Moroccan Grand Prix.

In 1959, the port was visited by the yacht of the Greek shipping magnate Aristotle Onassis and his guest, Winston Churchill.

By 1960, Agadir numbered over 40,000 residents when at 15 minutes to midnight on 29 February 1960, it was again almost totally destroyed by an earthquake of magnitude 5.7 on the Richter scale that lasted 15 seconds, burying the city and killing more than a third of the population. The death toll was estimated at 15,000. The earthquake destroyed the old Kasbah.

Agadir after 1960
The current city was rebuilt 1 mi further south, led by the architects associated with GAMMA, including Jean-François Zevaco, Elie Azagury, Pierre Coldefy, and Claude Verdugo, with consultation from Le Corbusier. Agadir became a large city of over half a million by 2004, with a large port with four basins: the commercial port with a draft of 17 metres, triangle fishing, fishing port, and a pleasure boat port with marina. Agadir was the premier sardine port in the world in the 1980s and has a beach stretching over 10 km with fine seafront promenades. Its climate has 340 days of sunshine per year which allows for swimming all year round. The winter is warm and in summer, haze is common.

With Marrakech, Agadir is a very important centre for tourism to Morocco, and the city is the most important fishing port in the country. Business is also booming with the export of citrus fruit and vegetables produced in the fertile valley of Souss.

On 12 December 2022, an earthquake of magnitude 4.5 hit Agadir Province. The earthquake struck at a depth of three kilometres beneath the epicentre, off the coast of Agadir.

Geography

The current conurbation of Agadir is actually a combination of four communes:

 * the former town of Agadir city
 * the urban commune of Anza
 * the rural town of Bensergao
 * the rural town of Tikiwine

New Talborjt
This area is named after the old district of Talborjt (meaning "small fort" in local Berber, in remembrance of the water tower which was first built on the plateau in the former Talborjt). Lively, the New Talborjt which has been rebuilt away from the Old Talborjt, has as the main artery the Boulevard Mohammed Sheikh Saadi, named after the victor against the Portuguese in 1541. Other major avenues are the Avenue President Kennedy and the Avenue 29 February. There is also the Mohammed V mosque, the Olhão garden (Olhão is a coastal city in southern Portugal that is twinned with Agadir), and its memorial museum and the Garden Ibn Zaydoun. Some good hotels and restaurants have been built on the main arteries.

Residential districts

 * Swiss Village: the oldest district of villas bordered by the Avenue of FAR (Royal Armed Forces), Avenue Mokhtar Soussi, Cairo Avenue, and the Avenue of the United Nations.
 * Mixed Sector District (THE NEW IHCHACH): the French and Spanish Consulates are in this district.
 * Founty or "Bay of palm trees": a seaside area with residential villas, large hotels, holiday homes, and the royal palace.
 * High Founty: a new district of buildings and residential villas, located in the new city centre between the new Court of Appeal and the Marjane supermarket.
 * Illigh: to the east in front of the Hassan II hospital, is a residential area of large villas, housing the "new bourgeoisie".
 * Charaf: The Hassan II hospital is in this district.
 * Les Amicales: also known as the "city of government employees"
 * Dakhla: close to the Ibn Zohr University, it has a mix between modern buildings, ordinary villas, and studio apartments. This new town created in 1979 was the last work before his death of the renowned French urbanist, Gérald Hanning.
 * Hay Mohammadi: a new urbanization zone in Agadir with a villa zone and a zone for large groups of buildings to frame the extension of the Avenue des FAR in the northwest.
 * Adrar City: a new district next to the Metro hypermarket.
 * Other neighbourhoods: Amsernat, Lakhyam, Erac Bouargane, Massira, Essalam, Tilila, Tassila, Bensergao, Riad Assalam, Islane, Ihchach (Yachech) Nahda, Anza, Assaka, Bir Anzarane, Tikouine, Zaitoune, Taddart and El Houda.

The Casbah

The Casbah (Agadir Oufla, Agadir le haut, Agadir N'Ighir, or Agadir de la colline) was, along with Founti by the sea, the oldest district of Agadir. An authentic fortress with winding streets and lively, the Casbah was built in 1572 by Abdallah al-Ghalib. Above the front door; today, the original inscription in Arabic and in English reads: "God, the Nation, the King."

Of this fortress there remains, after the earthquake of 29 February 1960, a restored long high wall that surrounds land that is not buildable. There is, however, a view over the bay of Agadir and the ports. The old people of Agadir remember the "Moorish café" of the Casbah and its panoramic view.

The hill bears the inscription in Arabic: "God, Country, King" which, like the walls, is illuminated at night.

Old Talborjt
Overlooking the waterfront and Wadi Tildi, this old district (whose name is sometimes spelled Talbordjt) was once a shopping area and very lively with its large square where there was a weekly market, hotels, schools, mosque. 90% of the buildings in Old Talborjt were destroyed or severely damaged by the earthquake in 1960. Razed to the ground after the earthquake and now overgrown, it is classified as non-buildable area. Its main thoroughfare, the Avenue El Moun stretches over 2 km and serves only for driving schools that teach their students to drive.

Souk El Had
This is the largest market in the region. It has about 6,000 small shops. It is surrounded by walls and has several entrances. It is organized into different sectors: furniture, crafts, clothing, vegetables, meat, spices etc. It is possible to find all kinds of handicrafts and traditional decorations.

The walls have been restored and the interior design is being finished.

La Médina

La Médina is a handicrafts space created in 1992 by the Italian artist Coco Polizzi, at Ben Sergao, a district close to Agadir 4.5 km from the city centre. Built using techniques of traditional Berber construction, it is a kind of small open-air museum, on five hectares and home to artisan workshops, a museum, individual residences, a small hotel, and an exotic garden.

Subdivisions
The prefecture is divided administratively into communes.

Climate
Agadir has a semi-arid climate (Köppen: BSh) with warm summers and mild winters. Located along the Atlantic Ocean, Agadir has a very mild climate. The daytime temperature generally stays in the 20s °C (70s °F) every day with averages around 27 C, with the winter highs typically reaching 21 C in January.

Rainfall is almost entirely confined to the winter months and is heavily influenced by the NAO, with negative NAO indices producing wet winters and positive NAO correlating with drought. For instance, in the wettest month on record of December 1963, as much as 314.7 mm fell, whereas in the positive NAO year from July 1960 to June 1961 a mere 46.7 mm occurred over the twelve months. The wettest year has been from July 1955 to June 1956 with 455.5 mm.

Occasionally however, the region experiences winds from the Sahara called Chergui, which may exceptionally and for two to five days raise the heat above 40 C. The confirmed record high temperature was 50.4 C set on 12 August 2023. This makes Agadir one of few coastal locations in the world to have recorded a temperature above 50 °C. The record of 51.7 °C degrees, which was on 19 August 1940, is disputed.

In 1950, a poster from the Navigation Company Pacquet proclaimed: "Winter or summer, I bathe in Agadir".

Economy
The city had an annual growth rate of over 6% per year in housing demand while housing production barely exceeds 3.4%.

Agadir's economy relies mainly on tourism and fisheries. Agricultural activities are based around the city. Agadir has one of the biggest souks in Morocco (Souk El Had).

The fishing port is a major sardine port. The commercial port is also known for its exports of cobalt, manganese, zinc and citrus products. The Avenue du Port, the main artery of the Anza district, is surrounded by canneries and has many popular small restaurants adjacent to the fish market. The city has a cement company called Ciments du Maroc (CIMAR), a subsidiary of the Italian group Italcementi which is in process of being transferred to a new plant 40 km from the city. There is also a shipyard in the port and the only merchant marine school in Morocco.

Agadir is served by Al Massira Airport, 14 mi from the city.

Culture

The Timitar festival, a festival of Amazigh culture and music from around the world, has been held in Agadir every summer since its inception in July 2004.

The Morocco Movement association is involved in the arts and organizes concerts, exhibitions and meetings in the visual arts, design, music, graphic design, photography, environment and health.

Other cultural events in Agadir are:

 * Noiz Makerz concert of urban music.
 * Breaking South national break-dancing championship
 * International Documentary Film Festival in November (FIDADOC)
 * Film Festival for immigration
 * International Festival of University Theatre of Agadir
 * Concert for Tolerance (November)
 * Festival of Laughter
 * International Salon of Art of Photography (Clubphoto d'Agadir)

Museums

 * Musée de Talborjt "La Casbah"
 * Musée Bert Flint
 * Le Musée des Arts Berberes
 * Musee Municipal de Agadir
 * La Medina d'Agadir

Education
The city of Agadir has a university: the University Ibn Zohr which includes a Faculty of Science, Faculty of medicine and pharmacy, Faculty of Law, Economics and Social Sciences, the Faculty of Arts and Humanities, and the multi-disciplined Faculty of Ouarzazate.

There are also establishments of higher education such as:

 * the National School of Applied Sciences (ENSA)
 * the National School of Business and Management (ENCG)
 * the Graduate School of Agadir technology (ESTA).

There is an international French school: the French School of Agadir and also public schools: Youssef Ben Tachfine School, Mohammed Reda-Slaoui School, and the Al-Idrissi Technical College.

High schools in the city include:

 * Groupe Scolaire Paul Gauguin Agadir (CLOSED in 2014)
 * Groupe Scolaire LE DEFI
 * Lycée Lala Meryem Agadir
 * Lycée Qualifiant Youssef Ben Tachfine
 * Lycée Technique Al Idrissi
 * Lycée Al Qalam
 * Lycée Al Hanane
 * Lycée Français d'Agadir
 * Lycée Anoual
 * Lycée Zerktouni
 * Lycée Mohamed Derfoufi
 * Lycée Bader Elouefaq
 * Lycée Ibn Maja
 * Lycée Mounib
 * Lycée Al Inbiaat

Sports
The city of Agadir has a football club known as Hassania Agadir and the city has built the new Adrar Stadium, which the team plays its home matches at. The city also hosts the Royal Tennis Club of Agadir. It could host matches in the 2030 FIFA World Cup.

The Hassan II Golf Trophy and Lalla Meryem Cup golf tournaments of the European Tour and Ladies European Tour are held at the Golf du Palais Royal in Agadir since 2011.

People

 * Mohamed Bensaid Ait Idder, Moroccan politician and activist
 * Sion Assidon, Moroccan activist
 * Walid Azaro, Moroccan footballer
 * Abdelkrim Baadi, Moroccan footballer
 * Jacques Bensimon, Canadian filmmaker, was born in Agadir
 * Issam Chebake, Moroccan footballer
 * Mohamed Choua, Basketball player
 * Jalal Daoudi, Moroccan footballer
 * Karim El Berkaoui, Moroccan footballer
 * Hicham El Majhad, Moroccan footballer
 * Omar Hilale, permanent ambassador of Morocco to the United Nations
 * Pokimane, Moroccan-Canadian Internet personality and streamer
 * Saadia Himi, Miss Netherlands Earth 2004, born in the Netherlands, has roots in Agadir.
 * Hassan Kachloul, former Morocco national football team player, most notably playing for Southampton, Aston Villa and Wolves
 * Mohammed Khaïr-Eddine (1941–1995), Moroccan writer
 * Dominique Strauss-Kahn, spent his childhood there from 1951 to 1960
 * Michel Vieuchange, French adventurer and explorer, died in Agadir in 1930
 * Moncef Slaoui, Moroccan-Belgian doctor and researcher.

Nearby beaches

Some of the most popular beaches in Morocco are located to the north of Agadir. Areas known for surfing are located near Taghazout village to Cap Ghir.

Many smaller and clean beaches are located along this coast. Some of them between Agadir and Essaouira are: Agadir Beach, Tamaounza (12 km), Aitswal Beach, Imouran (17 km), Taghazout (19 km), Bouyirdn (20 km), Timzguida (22 km), Aghroud (30 km), Imiouadar (27 km).

Main sights

 * Agadir Crocodile park
 * The view of the city and the bay from Agadir Oufla (Casbah)
 * Valley of the Birds, a pleasant bird park stretching along the Avenue of Administrations, between Boulevard Hassan II and 20 August
 * The garden of Ibn Zaidoun
 * Mohammed V Mosque, on the Boulevard President Kennedy
 * Souk el Had (The biggest Market in Africa )
 * Amazigh (Berber) Heritage Museum at the Ayt Souss Square
 * The garden of Olhão or "Garden of Portugal" and its memorial museum in Talborjt
 * The marina with its Moorish architecture and shops
 * Loubnane Mosque
 * Wall of commemoration
 * Memory of Agadir Museum; mostly photographic exhibits which concentrate on the Agadir earthquake on 29 February 1960

Nearby attractions

 * The city of Taroudannt 80 km to the east, along the Souss valley
 * Palm Oasis of Tiout 20 km to the east of Taroudannt and 100 km from Agadir
 * Imouzzer Ida Ou Tanane a small town 60 km northeast of Agadir where Paradise Valley is located
 * The beaches of Taghazout and Tamraght. Taghazout-Argana Bay, a large tourism development, was launched in 2007
 * The city of Tiznit 90 km to the south and Tafraout 80 km from Tiznit, a magnificent site of pink granite rocks
 * The Souss-Massa National Park and Oued Massa, about 70 km to the south and the fishing village of Tifnit
 * Legzira beach with spectacular natural arches, 150 km south of Agadir
 * Sidi Ifni, 160 km south of Agadir on the coast
 * The city of Essaouira 175 km north of Agadir on the coast
 * Dephinarium Agadir Dolphin World Morocco

Movies filmed in Agadir

 * 1934: Le Grand Jeu by Jacques Feyder
 * 1954–1955: Oasis by Yves Allégret
 * 1969:  Du soleil plein les yeux by Michel Boisrond
 * 1988: Y'a bon les blancs by Marco Ferreri
 * 2006: Days of Glory by Rachid Bouchareb
 * 2009: "Les Filles du désert" by Hubert Besson, an episode of the television series Plus belle la vie
 * 2011: Agadir Bombay by Myriam Bakir

In literature and art

 * Agadir: literary work by Moroccan writer Mohammed Khaïr-Eddine
 * Ride to Agadir: song by Mike Batt, that also has a cover by Boney M.

Sister cities
Agadir has eight sister cities

 * 🇦🇷 Mar del Plata, Argentina
 * 🇺🇸 Miami, United States
 * 🇺🇸 Oakland, United States
 * 🇺🇸 Portsmouth, New Hampshire, United States
 * 🇵🇹 Olhão, Portugal
 * 🇫🇷 Nantes, France
 * 🇳🇴 Stavanger, Norway
 * 🇮🇷 Shiraz, Iran
 * 🇵🇭 Vigan, Philippines

Cooperation Pact:

 * 🇫🇷 Lyon, France

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Agadir


text:
New Zealand, Buckinghamshire

New Zealand is a hamlet in the civil parish of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, England, on the A413 heading out to the north of Aylesbury town centre. It gained its name from a breed of cow that was supposedly farmed there. It has been swallowed up by the urban growth of Aylesbury, but a pub of the same name remains.

title: New Zealand, Buckinghamshire


text:
Jedda

Jedda, released in the UK as Jedda the Uncivilised, is a 1955 Australian film written, produced and directed by Charles Chauvel. His last film, it is notable for being the first to star two Aboriginal actors, Robert Tudawali and Ngarla Kunoth (later known as Rosalie Kunoth-Monks) in the leading roles. It was also the first Australian feature film to be shot in colour.

Jedda is often seen as an influential film in the development of Australian cinema and setting a new standard for future Australian films. It won more international attention than previous Australian films during a time when Hollywood films were dominating Australian cinema. Chauvel was nominated for the Golden Palm Award at the 1955 Cannes Film Festival but lost to Delbert Mann for Marty.

Plot
Jedda is an Aboriginal girl born on a cattle station in the Northern Territory of Australia. After her mother dies giving birth to her, the child is brought to Sarah McMann, the wife of the station boss. Sarah has recently lost her own newborn to illness. She at first intends to give the baby to one of the Aboriginal women who work on the station, but then raises Jedda as her own, teaching her European ways and separating her from other Aboriginal people.

Jedda wants to learn about her own culture, but is forbidden by Sarah. When Jedda grows into a young woman, she becomes curious about an Aboriginal man from the bush named Marbuck. This tall stranger arouses strong feelings in her. She is lured to his camp one night by a song. Marbuck abducts her and sets off back to his tribal land, through crocodile-infested swamps.

Joe, a half-caste stockman in love with Jedda, tracks the two for several days. They travel across high, rocky country, and down a river until Marbuck reaches his tribe. The tribal council declares that Marbuck has committed a serious crime by bringing Jedda to them, because she is not of the right skin group. They sing his death song as punishment. Marbuck defies the elders and takes Jedda into an area of steep cliffs and canyons, taboo lands.

Driven insane by the death song, he pulls Jedda with him over a tall cliff, and both perish. Joe, the narrator, says her spirit has joined "the great mother of the world, in the dreaming time of tomorrow".

Cast

 * Ngarla Kunoth as Jedda
 * Robert Tudawali as Marbuck
 * Betty Suttor as Sarah McMann
 * Paul Reynall as Joe
 * George Simpson-Lyttle as Douglas McMann
 * Tas Fitzer as Peter Wallis
 * Hugh Wason Byers as Felix Romeo (credited as Wason Byers)
 * Willie Farrar as Little Joe
 * Margaret Dingle as Little Jedda

Development
Charles Chauvel said the original inspiration for the film came from a meeting he had in Hollywood in early 1950 with Merian C. Cooper. Cooper encouraged the director to make a film exploiting Australian locations. Chauvel was further encouraged along these lines by Bess Meredyth, who had made a number of films in Australia in the 1920s.

Chauvel decided to make the project in the Northern Territory. With his wife Elsa he made an extensive survey of the Territory later that year with the assistance of the Commonwealth government. He undertook colour tests, intending to make Australia's first colour movie. The Chauvels then wrote a screenplay, originally entitled The Northern Territory Story.

The lead Aboriginal character was reportedly inspired by the warrior Nemarluk, who killed three Japanese pearlers in the 1930s and died in prison.

In 1951 Chauvel formed Chauvel Productions Ltd to make the film, with a notional capital of £500,000. It went public in August 1951, offering 240,000 shares.

Chauvel later stated that he turned down an American offer of $100,000 (£44,000) to finance the film because it was conditional upon Linda Darnell being cast in the lead. Chauvel's regular backers Universal Pictures did not want to invest in the movie but Chauvel managed to secure finance from various businessmen, including Mainguard Australia Ltd. It took the Chauvels 18 months to find a suitable filming location.

Production
Filming started in May 1952, when the unit left Sydney for Darwin. By this stage the lead role of Jedda had still yet to be cast, but filming acting sequences did not begin until July. Robert Tudawali was an Aboriginal man from Melville Island, the largest island in the Tiwi Islands group. Ngarla Kunoth (Rosalie Kunoth-Monks) was an Arrernte and Anmatyerre woman, born at Utopia cattle station, north east of Alice Springs; she was selected over seven other actors screen tested, and was cast by July.

The shoot took five months to complete, plus post-production work done in Sydney. Most of the scenes were shot on the Coolibah Station in the Northern Territory, as well as at Standley Chasm, Ormiston Gorge and Mary River in the north.

The production process was laborious, as the colour technique used, Gevacolor, could only be processed in England. The film stock was fragile and heat-sensitive, which was a problem in the tropical climate of the Northern Territory. During production, the film was stored in cool caves to protect it from deteriorating. By mid 1952 the film had incurred expenses of £24,673.

The last roll of negative was destroyed in a plane crash on its way for developing in England. Chauvel re-shot these lost scenes at Kanangra Walls in the Blue Mountains and Jenolan Caves west of Sydney. Cave scenes were filmed in the River Cave, Diamond Cave, Imperial Cave, and Mud Tunnels at Jenolan. Editing and sound recording were completed in London.

The music was written by Isador Goodman. Elsa Chauvel, the director's wife, replaced large parts of Goodman's score with old-fashioned commercial "mood" music.

The Chauvels celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary during filming. Wason Byers, who had a small role, was arrested for stealing over £1,000 worth of cattle.

Reception
The film had its world premiere on 3 January 1955 at the Star Theatre in Darwin. The theatre's manager Tom Harris arranged for a member of the Warhiti tribe "to sing songs and burn sticks to prevent any unwanted rainfalls during the screening. He decorated the theatre for the opening with pandanus, grass mats and Aboriginal artefacts. Large crowds gathered along Smith Street to catch a glimpse of the film's stars Ngarla Kunoth and Robert Tudawali were permitted to sit in the balcony with the Northern Territory Administrator Frank Wise and his wife.

The film then opened in Sydney in May. Its commercial reception was solid rather than sensational: Charles Chauvel Productions Ltd received £17,915 from the film in May and June 1955. The company's name was changed to Jedda Ltd to help exploit the film. In December 1956 Jedda Ltd reported a profit of £50,454 for the year to 30 June, reducing the debit balance in the production account to £69,697. The film had been successful in Australia but performed disappointingly overseas.

The film was released in the UK as Jedda the Uncivilised.

Some time after the film was completed and released in locations around the world, the film in Gevacolor was found to have faded from ageing. In 1972 the film was reproduced from original tri-separations found in London.

This was Charles Chauvel's last feature film. He had intended to adapt Kay Glasson Taylor's novel The Wars of the Outer March, but was hired by the BBC to make the TV series Walkabout. Before he could resume work on his feature projects he died on 11 November 1959.

Influence
The making of the film inspired the play Burst of Summer.

title: Jedda


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Hematidrosis

Hematidrosis, also called hematohidrosis, haematidrosis, hemidrosis and blood sweat, is a very rare condition in which a human sweats blood. The term is from Ancient Greek haîma/haímatos (αἷμα/αἵματος), meaning blood, and hīdrṓs (ἱδρώς), meaning sweat.

Signs and symptoms
Blood usually oozes from the forehead, nails, umbilicus, and other skin surfaces. In addition, oozing from mucocutaneous surfaces causing nosebleeds, bloodstained tears, and vicarious menstruation are common. The episodes may be preceded by intense headache and abdominal pain and are usually self-limiting. In some conditions, the secreted fluid is more dilute and appears to be blood-tinged, while others may have darker, bright red secretions resembling blood.

While the extent of blood loss generally is minimal, hematidrosis also results in the skin becoming extremely tender and fragile.

Causes
Hematidrosis is a condition in which capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing them to exude blood, occurring under conditions of extreme physical or emotional stress. Severe mental anxiety activates the sympathetic nervous system to invoke the fight-or-flight response to such a degree as to cause hemorrhage of the vessels supplying the sweat glands. It has been suggested that acute fear and extreme stress can cause hematidrosis.

Diagnosis
Investigations such as platelet count, platelet aggregation test, coagulation profile, and skin biopsy reveal no abnormalities, and direct light microscopy of fluid demonstrates presence of normal red blood cells. Investigations also fail to show any vasculitis or skin appendages (i.e. sweat glands, sebaceous glands and hair follicles) abnormalities.

A 2015 case study investigated hematidrosis with a patient who has epilepsy.

Treatment
Effects on the body include weakness and mild-to-moderate dehydration from the severe anxiety and both blood and sweat loss.

The condition is very rare, but there are reports in the medical literature of successful treatment with beta blockers (propranolol 10 mg), with significant reduction in the frequency of spontaneous blood oozing. The successful use of beta blockers supports the theory that the condition is induced by stress and anxiety. However, this etiology is not yet fully established, as the high prevalence of stress and anxiety in the modern era has not changed the incidence of this extremely rare disease, suggesting that other co-abnormalities also play a key role. Atropine sulfate transdermal patches have also been used successfully.

Favorable results with psychiatric counselling to reduce stress highlight the relationship between psychogenic causes and hematohidrosis.

Instances
Dermatological research notes the presence of hematidrosis in people awaiting execution. It has also been proposed as a possible explanation for Jesus' agony in the garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44), and for claims associated with stigmata.

Leonardo da Vinci described a soldier who sweated blood before battle. The phenomenon has also been observed in individuals in fear for their lives; a case occurred during the London blitz, and a case of fear of a storm while sailing, etc.

title: Hematidrosis


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California, Buckinghamshire

California is a hamlet to the south side of Aylesbury town centre in Buckinghamshire in England, although today it has been completely swallowed up by the urban growth of Aylesbury.

Etymology
The hamlet is probably named after the U.S. state of California, though its history goes back long before the state was known to British people. The name of the original farm was therefore most likely changed to California at some point before 1839. It is widely believed that the hamlet was named after visiting American servicemen during the Second World War; however, 19th-century maps prove this to be incorrect.

History
Until the arrival of the Wycombe Railway in Aylesbury in 1863, California was the name of a farm and related buildings that stood in the area. However, with the arrival of the railway, cottages were constructed in the location of the farm to house railway workers and the area became known as the Hamlet of California.

Hazell, Watson and Viney
In 1867, printing and publishing firm, Hazell, Watson and Viney, opened an inkworks in a disused silk mill in the hamlet. In 1878, this was moved to purpose built premises on the Tring Road (current site of Tesco), which closed in 1952.

20th century
By the early 1920s Aylesbury had grown such that it was necessary to start building houses on the site of Southcourt (the other side of California from Aylesbury), and so California and the associated farmlands that surrounded it became part of Aylesbury town. Eventually the farmlands themselves were built on, though the railway cottages that formed the hamlet remain. In 1924, the Bishop of Oxford transferred lands owned in California into the hands of the Municipal Borough of Aylesbury, which in 1929 was partially used in the construction of a new church and parsonage house, which is currently located on Penn Road.

21st century
The site was home to the "California Industrial Estate" until 2005 when it was demolished to make way for a new housing estate, renamed the "Grand Central" due to its proximity to the centre of Aylesbury. As of November 2006 the building work has nearly finished and it is likely that the hamlet will be forgotten as it has been completely swamped by Aylesbury's development.

Education

 * Aylesbury College
 * Sir Henry Floyd Grammar School
 * Oak Green School
 * Bambino Community Nursery
 * Pebble Brook School

Religion

 * Southcourt Baptist Church

Other

 * The Railway Club, a social club
 * Southcourt Community Centre

title: California, Buckinghamshire


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List of presidents of Bolivia

The president of Bolivia is the head of state and head of government of Bolivia, directly elected to a five-year term by the Bolivian people. The officeholder leads the executive branch of the government and is the captain general of the Armed Forces of Bolivia.

Since the office was established in 1825, 65 men and 2 women have served as president. The first president, Simón Bolívar, was elected by the General Assembly of Deputies of the Province of Upper Peru. For purposes of numbering, members of jointly-ruling juntas and other governing bodies are not included in the official count of presidents, unless one member later assumed the presidency in their own right. Three presidents: Antonio José de Sucre, Germán Busch, and Hernán Siles Zuazo became, after a brief, non-consecutive, interim exercise of power, presidents for longer terms later. In these cases, they are numbered according to that second term. Therefore, Busch is counted as the 36th president, not the 35th, Siles Zuazo as the 46th instead of the 45th, etc.

The presidency of Pedro Blanco Soto, who was assassinated six days after taking office in 1828, was the shortest in Bolivian history. Evo Morales served the longest, over thirteen years, before resigning in 2019. He is the only president to have served more than two consecutive terms. José Miguel de Velasco and Víctor Paz Estenssoro each served for four terms. However, all of Velasco's were non-consecutive and two were in an acting capacity while Paz Estenssoro only served twice consecutively in 1960 and 1964.

Three presidents died in office, one of natural causes and two through tragic circumstances (Adolfo Ballivián, Germán Busch, and René Barrientos). Three were assassinated (Pedro Blanco Soto, Agustín Morales, and Gualberto Villarroel). The latter resigned mere hours before his death. Additionally, Manuel Antonio Sánchez and Pedro José de Guerra died of natural causes while exercising provisional presidential functions while eight former presidents were assassinated after leaving office (Antonio José de Sucre, Eusebio Guilarte, Manuel Isidoro Belzu, Jorge Córdova, Mariano Melgarejo, Hilarión Daza, José Manuel Pando, and Juan José Torres).

Five vice presidents assumed the presidency during a presidential term (José Luis Tejada Sorzano, Mamerto Urriolagoitía, Luis Adolfo Siles Salinas, Jorge Quiroga, and Carlos Mesa). Tejada Sorzano was the first to do so in 1934 while Quiroga was the only one to complete the term of their predecessor (Tejada Sorzano extended his mandate past the term of his predecessor).

22 presidents were deposed in 23 coups d'état (1839, 1841; twice, 1848; twice, 1857, 1861, 1864, 1871, 1876, 1879, 1920, 1936, 1937, 1943, 1964, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1978; twice, 1979, and 1980). Velasco was deposed twice in 1841 and December 1848. Additionally, the Council of Ministers of Hernando Siles Reyes was deposed in 1930. Three presidents were deposed by a civil war, a popular uprising, and a revolution. Transmissions of command from one de facto government to another de facto government occurred in seven cases (1841, 1946, 1965, 1966, 1981; twice, and 1982). Two special cases occurred in 1939 when Carlos Quintanilla was installed by the military after the death of Germán Busch and in 1951 when President Mamerto Urriolagoitía resigned in a self-coup in favor of a military junta. Two unconstitutional successions occurred in 1930 when Hernando Siles Reyes entrusted command to his council of ministers and 1934 when Daniel Salamanca was ousted in favor of his vice president, José Luis Tejada Sorzano. Finally, some supporters of Evo Morales claim that he was ousted by a coup d'état and that the presidency of Jeanine Áñez was an unconstitutional succession of power. However, this is disputed.

There are seven living former presidents. The most recent to die was Luis García Meza, on 29 April 2018.

title: List of presidents of Bolivia


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User:Rednblu/ImageEngine

Shock wave begins [[media:Cygnus_Loop_Supernova_Blast_Wave_-_GPN-2000-000992.jpg|Get closer!]]

title: User:Rednblu/ImageEngine


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Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/Archive 5

Untitled
Right now, I'm in the middle of a revert fight with Mintguy. I'm asking for comments on this.

When there is a multiple-place name, there are several different ways they are handled. Usually, a disambiguation page is found under Cityname. When there is a major city of that name, the disambiguation page is under Cityname (disambiguation). In that latter case, the Cityname page at least has a link to the Cityname (disambiguation) page. In a few cases (also major cities) the disambiguation information is on the Cityname page itself. There are some cases where there are redirects, and the Cityname page redirects to the Cityname, Countryname (or Cityname, Statename) page; even there the page that the redirect sends you to has a link to the Cityname (disambiguation) page, so you can get back. (I'm not very fond of using redirects in these cases, because if you happen to be looking for one of the smaller places, it can take you a lot of time to get where you're going.)

Mintguy has been replacing the Exeter disambiguation page by a redirect to Exeter, England. That is to me a pernicious thing, and I've been repeatedly reverting it when I find it. Exeter, England is hardly a major city in the category of London or Paris; it's a small place with about 100,000 people that nobody outside the UK is likely to be interested in. It certainly seems to me that this is comparable to other cases where one city may be larger than the others, but not so significantly large that it deserves the redirect treatment.

I want to see what the majority thinks. I think I'm being the neutral one, but I hate to spend my time reverting Mintguy's reverts. -- BRG July 10, 2003

With 2000 years of history, Exeter is one of the oldest settlements in Britain. The name Exeter for the other placenames is directly derived from the original Exeter. We have a long established convention that where ever one place name is predominantly associated with one location, we use that and create a placename (disambiguation) page. With its long history the vast majority of references required for Exeter mean the British town. BRG seems to be under the impression that a town with a population of 100,000 is insignificant. This only show a mis-understanding of the demographics of Britain (which is understandable). As such Exeter is as insignificant as Cambridge, Oxford, St Albans and Canterbury. Mintguy 13:49 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Hmmm ... Now I feel persuaded the other way. Guess I'll go play with the fauna articles again :) Tannin

I have no problem with someone's putting a note on the Exeter disambiguation page to indicate that Exeter, England is the original. Some other places have that kind of note. What I find to be offensive is Mintguy's (and some other Britons') attitude that some little town of 100,000 is major just because it's in Britain. Certainly a city like Syracuse, N. Y. (population much more than that) doesn't get the kind of treatment that he wants for Exeter. BRG July 10

You are still failing to get the main point which is not so much about populations as to what the majority of people in the world (not just the USA) associate with a particular name. Boston, in England is relegated to make way for the one in USA. Do you have a problem with that also? Mintguy

BRG. Now you are just getting nasty. I'm sure Brighton famous enough, even in the USA to have its own page. Please revert your change. Mintguy 14:25 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To me I think it is clear that the only places in England that deserve to be under "Cityname" rather than "Cityname, England" are London, Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham (and perhaps not the latter, because Birmingham, Alabama is a pretty big city!) I think that we nood to think of the world outside the UK, as you talk about the world outside the USA. --- BRG

Look we had this discussion over Durham (population 87,709) a long time ago and a convention was established. See the talk page for Durham (disambiguation), and now you want to upset the applecart. Exeter is equally if not more historical than Durham with a larger population, an International airport, an historic cathedral, a large university. It is also the administrative centre of Devon. It is NOT (as you persistantly and insultingly phrase it) a "jerkwater town". Mintguy 14:33 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rockville, Maryland is the administrative center of Montgomery County, Maryland, which has a population of 800,000 (not much less than Devon's million). I would hardly call Rockville a major city, though it is important to _me_ (as I live in Montgomery County). So when I call Exeter a "jerkwater town" I am not insulting; I'm stating a fact. NO city of less than half a million deserves to be called major; Exeter's population is less than a quarter of that half-million figure. -- BRG

The "Town, State"-phrase is for me a marker of USA-ishness. When used for locals outside of the US, I would believe also a lot of other readers than me get confused. I am sure it would be sufficient to use the "Town in Country"/"City of Country" notion when the context isn't enough to avoid ambiguities. It does also ought to be important in respect to style of prose. (Personally, I would most certainly prefer Town (in Country as page-titles, which would not have the unwished influence on writers of referring texts inducing them to employ the US-style for towns otherwhere.) The discussion above has a very bad taste of Nationalist cock-length-competition, which I think is unworthy, and an unfortunate consequence of the Town,Something-convention, which maybe ought to be reconsidered. -- Ruhrjung 14:47 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Quite right, Britain has a small cock in this argument, our towns arn't as big as American ones, but there are more per square mile than the US (so our balls hang lower). The demographics of the countries are different. (Apologies for the vulgarity).

Again, I'll repeat it. The point is whether or not the name is predominatly associated for one thing or not and with Exeter in Devon, this is the case. 2000 years of history throws up an awful lot of references you know. Mintguy

 * Eden (the town in New South Wales) has a population of about 2000. In Eden, there is a rather nice garden. Obviously, I better write it up, as the place in the Bible called the Garden of Eden had a population of only 2. Clearly, the garden in the town of Eden on the south coast of New South Wales is vastly more important than that other, jerkwater so-called Garden of Eden

 * (PS - don't take my population of Eden as gospel. I've never been there so I just made the number up. But my argument stands as we can be absolutely certain that Eden's population is more than two. Tannin 15:00 10 Jul 2003 (UTC))

BRG, by your definition Edinburgh is a "jerkwater town", Zurich and Geneva are "jerkwater towns", Lisbon is a "jerkwater town", Cork is a "jerkwater town",  Lyon, Nice and Toulouse are all "jerkwater towns",  Mintguy.

Mintguy, when Exeter becomes a national capital (like Lisbon), a regional capital (like Edinburgh; some would call that one a national capital too!), the headquarters of a major UN agency (like Geneva), or the like, I will withdraw the "jerkwater town" characterization. The real equivalent is New Haven, Connecticut, a city a little larger than Exeter, with not just one but two universities, one of which is of national reputation, corresponding to Oxford in your country, an airport, a rail junction, etc. We do not see "New Haven" alone for that city. So we shopuld not see "Exeter" alone for the English mini-city.-- BRG July 11

The population (or other arbitrary significance measure) of a place is not relevant to this discussion: the important thing is the "what links here" list. When somebody creates a new link to the name, is it likely to be referring to one place in particular? ( 14:38 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Precisely. But New Haven isn't 2000 years old with all the relevent history and and neccesary links to go with it. New Haven wasn't the site of a battle 1000 years ago, it wasn't occupied by the Romans. It isn't the place that was the centre of power for Alfred the Great. It isn't the place Danile Defoe called 'large, rich, beautiful, populous and was once very strong' It isn't the place that in the 18th century it was the 6th largest town in England. It isn't the place where civil war between king and parliament began. Exter is all of these. Mintguy 14:42 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * New Haven, Connecticut has a decent number of links: the disambiguation can probably be skipped for this one too. ( 14:50 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

New Haven is not 2000 years old; nothing in the USA is. It is over 300 years old, which makes it very old by US standards. Exeter may have been the 6th largest town in England in the 18th Century, but New Haven is currently the third largest town in Connecticut (or perhaps the second)! And none of these great distinctions of Exeter is recent, while New Haven was until the 1960s the headquarters city of the biggest railroad in New England and is currently, as I mentioned, the site of one of the three most umportant universities in the USA. - BRG July 11

The point is not how Exeter compares to New Haven, but how it compares to the other Exeters. And I'm sorry on that it wins hands down. This isn't the case for plenty of other towns in Britain which are disambiguated, but Eexter, like Oxford and Cambridge AND Colchester(which is also one of the first Roman settlements in Britain) is one of those exceptions. Mintguy

 * This seems fine to me, I fixed New Haven ( 15:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"The point is not how Exeter compares to New Haven, but how it compares to the other Exeters." My point is that just as we put New Haven under "New Haven, Connecticut" we should put Exeter under "Exeter, England" or "Exeter, Devon" or "Exeter, UK" (your choice), not just under "Exeter." And the same for Brighton, Colchester, and all other cities in England except perhaps for two or 3 of the largest. -- BRG July 11

 * Ok if that's what you think. tell my why you think that? What is the logic behind your position? Mintguy 15:24 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What I actually would want would be for every article whose title is the name of more than one city to be a disambiguation page so you don't run into the sort of thing where an article means to refer to one and you get to the wrong one. But I was overruled on that many months ago; it was felt that for places like London and Paris there woulkd be almost no chance that someone really meant London, Ohio or Paris, Kentucky. So I am simply making a compromise. It is not so logical because I have had to accept the consensus that for major cities the majority do not want to go all the way. -BRG

Major or not is irrelevant. Major is just a convenient way of expressing how many links can be expected for particular ariticle. That is what the convention is. You might want to note that since you changed all of the links for Exeter to Exeter, England. Two more links have been created for Exeter, both of which mean the one in Britain. Mintguy

One of those, Fosse Way, was done by your partner in crime, G-Man, who undid my change.

How many links are expected depends on who is writing articles. A lot of my articles are disambiguation pages that refer to tiny little places that have the same name as others -- BRG

 * Normally New Haven, Connecticut would be at New Haven. But it comes under the special exception for USA cities (see the main article) ( 15:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

BRG I'm not going to discuss this any further. You are in a minority of one and this page is getting too big. Mintguy 16:15 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

How am I in a minority? It seems like it is you against me. Nobody else is expressing an opinion! BRG

 * Exeter in England should be at Exeter. For Americans who can't conceive of placenames written without commas, we can have Exeter, England as a redirect. Exeter (disamb...) can list the others. -- Tarquin 16:28 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Ditto. Tannin

 * Didittotto. :-) Physical population is often an artifact of local politics (the most famous part of Las Vegas, Nevada, the Las Vegas Strip, is entirely outside the city, and deliberately so), and so the "population" that really matters is the number of references from within the encyclopedia. Stan 18:08 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * It's strange. I can see plenty of expressed opinions above.
 * The important thing is that an article on a British or European town shall not have comma+nation, nor comma+country. (On the other hand, I'm actually disturbed over the redirect from Frankfurt am Main to Frankfurt, it ought to be the other way round. :-)
 * -- Ruhrjung 11:24 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Tarquin, Tannin, Stan and Mintguy. BTW I absolutely hate the use of commas in city names. It is phenomenon unique to American english and makes wiki articles sound as though they are written by Americans for Americans. We do have to be careful to avoid creating linguistic structures that seem exclusive to any one group on wiki, whether it be British people, Irish people, Japanese people, American people or whatever. Using (disambigulation) where we have to disambigulate seems far more neutral and acceptable to all forms of english used on wiki, whether it is British english, Australian english, Hibero-english, American english or whatever. FearÉIREANN 19:16 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Certainly Canadians and Australians use commas too. I've seen "Clayton, Victoria" and "Vancouver, British Columbia" in postal addresses emanating from those countries. BRG July 12

 * Oh, yeah, right, duh. That's what a postal address is - a list of geographical locations, ordered from most-specific to least-specific, sperated by commas or new lines. Tannin

 * The commas are a response to the unusual situation of a large country composed of quasi-independent states each with a very large number of small towns. I'm sure Russia, India, and China must have the same problem, dunno how they solve it though. Stan 20:32 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Alternatively, one can see the commas as the result of the massive immigration. One reason is that many US place names are copied from the original lands of the immigrants, and duplicated names became not unusual (within USA). At the same time, the immigration led to a great flux of people (within USA), differently than in other parts of the world, and hence people in the US needed to keep track of places all over USA. -- Ruhrjung 11:24 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yeah I understand. Certainly in Europe saying things like Paris, France, Dublin, England, London, England are seen as distinctly American and have long been describing as "annoying" by english speakers in Britain, in Ireland and elsewhere. How we solve the problem I don't know but there is a problem there. FearÉIREANN 21:43 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * The convention is we put all cities in the US and Canada as [City, State] or [City, Province], but in the rest of the world we use [City], unless there is a disambiguation page in the [City] namespace, in which case the format is [City, Country]. Therefore unless Exeter is a disambiguation page, it should be used for the city in Devon, with Exeter, England redirecting there. I think the rule of thumb should be if a place is (A) significatly larger & (B) significantly older than any other of the same name, than it should occupy the main namespace (which is curtainly the case for Exeter in England). However, his does not mean that a place that is larger but younger can't occupy the main namespace if it is prodominet enough (eg Boston which does and should redirect to Boston, Massachusetts). - Efghij

 * I thought that this was the general rule of thumb that was agreed some time ago, and that instances are reviewed on a case by case business, but this doesn't appear to have been written up on the meta page. Can we please do this so we don't get new occurrences of users like User:BRG trying to upset the applecart with their perceived interpretation that this rule applies to few cities other than London and Paris. Mintguy 08:03 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No one seems to have mentioned it, so I'll point out that Exeter in England also has other things recommending it as "the" Exter, notably the existence of a hereditary title and historical figures who held that title... including Shakespearean characters. --Dante Alighieri 19:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-

You know, I keep seeing comments from Europeans that "City, Country" looks strange to them, including one person's comment that "people in the US are used to seeing things like 'Durham, NC' but people in Europe are not used to 'Durham, England.'" This makes me wonder what they do. Certainly in the UK it is not necessary to put "UK" in any more than it's necessary to put "USA" in addresses of letters mailed here. But suppose you're sending a letter to Bergen (the name of a city in Belgium as well as one in Norway). How do you make sure it goes to the right one? Don't tell me you use "Mons" instead of "Bergen." The city has two names because Belgium has two languages, and the Flemings have as much right as the Walloons to have their name for the city used. And suppose you're sending a letter to a place small enough that the postal personnel in your own country may not have heard of it. If you are in England and you want a letter to go to Heidenreichstein, do you expect the postal sorting fellow to know that it's in Austria (and not Germany or Switzerland)? Now of course there are postal codes, but I mean of course before they started using codes prefixed by A, CH, or D. --  BRG

 * Postal addresses still have the name of country on it; the American peculiarity is to use "Durham, NC" as a normal equivalent of just "Durham". I think things are being overstated on both sides; ordinary Americans are just as likely to say "Durham" or "Durham NC", the comma thing being partly something promoted by government to make it easier to control us :-), and I have plenty of British covers with addresses like "Wankers Corner, Countryshire", although the "England" will usually be on a separate line, thus finessing the use of a comma to separate. Stan 17:34 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * in addresses, there's a line break between city name and country / state / county / whatever. In speech and writing, in the UK we'd use "in", if context was not clear. "I'm going to Heidenreichstein in Austria." -- Tarquin

 * Kingston is one of the most common placenames in Britain some of them are disambiguated thus:

 * Kingston upon Thames,
 * Kingston upon Hull, (usually just Hull)
 * Kingston near Lewes
 * Kingston-by-Ferring
 * Kingston by Sea
 * Kingston on Soar
 * Kingston on Spey

 * Mintguy 21:38 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Question: How does our policy of [Town, County] apply to towns in Cornwall? Cornwall is, strictly speaking, part of England, but most towns seem to be in the format [Town, Cornwall] rather than [Town, England]. Is this inconsistent with our policy, or is this some kind of exception? (And if the later, could some one right that somewhere obvious?) - Efghij 05:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * It seems to be a bit of an open question, Efghij. Similarly, should we have Launceston (Australia) or Launceston (Tasmania)? I'm not sure if there is a policy on these things yet. Tannin

 * I think that falls into the [City, Country] catigory; therefore it would be Launceston, Australia. - Efghij 16:28 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Is that good or bad? -- Ruhrjung 21:04 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Cornwall, has a small (some would say insignificant) independence movement. According to some members of this movement, Cornwall has never officially been part of England and any claim that it is, is illegal. On Wikipedia this opinion is held by User:sjc. A number of attempts to modify articles on Cornwall and places in Cornwall, describing it as being in England have met with opposition from sjc and others. We've ended up compromising over Cornwall. Mintguy 10:07 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Another thing about commas. New York, New York doesn't bat an eyelid for Americans, but at first sight it looks strange for the rest of us. We would not expect to see "Durham, Durham", which I think looks bizarre and makes me think of an 80s band rather than a place in the north of England. Mintguy 12:06 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * For this American, New York, New York sounds like something out of a song, or a TV ad telling me where to write for my free Ginsu knife that slices, dices, and make Julienne fries. :-) These days "New York" almost always means NYC, and one says "New York state", as in "I'm going to Albany next week" "Where's that?" "New York state" or "upstate New York".  If one just answered "New York", the response would be "never heard of it - is it like a neighborhood of Manhattan?". 1/2 :-) Stan 13:46 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Then why not New York City, New York so as to match Oklahoma City, Oklahoma? And why are we using commas for disambiguating city names in places where commas are not commonly used (such as in the UK)? IMO when there is a title conflict in non-US/Canadian/Australian cases we should use standard parenthetical disambiguation. So instead of Durham, Durham we get Durham (Durham) or something similar. Otherwise the use of commas is confusing because it implies that preemptive disambiguation is also the rule for those nations (like the UK). --mav 20:04 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I think the "city" in "New York City" has evolved as the informal disambiguator; it's not an official part of the name as it is for "Oklahoma City". Stan 20:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * It certainly sounds better. --mav

 * I think we should keep the using commas for placenames, and parentheses for objects. It would look weird if we had:

 * Lincoln (automobile)
 * Lincoln (England)
 * Lincoln, Nebraska

 * Durham, in any case, would be Durham, England if it needed to be somewhere other than Durham. - Efghij 20:21 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * But Lincoln, Nebraska is very commonly used in the US as if it were the proper name of the city. This is not the case for "Durham, England" and if fact is just an extension of an American convention to a place where it is not used. And I also recall that a great many cities within England share the same name so "England" by itself would not be enough in many cases. My other points above still apply. --mav

 * It seems rather premature that User:Efghij, who July 11th had the opposite opinion, and still 14 hours before wrote here without any hints on a changed opinion, now this evening updates the metapage Naming_conventions_(city_names) to:
 * For cities in the United Kingdom local disambiguators will be used when possible (Kingston upon Hull, Kingston upon Thames). When there is no local disambiguator, they will be disambiguated with a format of City, Country, with "Country" being England, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, or Northern Ireland. Cities which need additional disambiguation will be disambiguated with their County (St. Ives, Cambridgeshire, St. Ives, Dorset).
 * I can't help getting curious. Which arguments have been THAT persuasive?
 * -- Ruhrjung 21:23 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * It was odd that Efghi changed the convention seemingly unilaterally. --mav

 * I've reverted Efghi's edit for two reasons.
 * Nobody agreed to this change.
 * It uses bad examples. My choice of Kingston Upon Hull and Kingston Upon Thames etc.. earlier was to illustrate how certain placenames have become disambiguated historically. But '..Upon Thames' etc.. have now become part of the actual place name. Mintguy

 * I'm sorry, I understood that these were, for the moment, our accepted standards. They certainly seem to be in use throughout the articles on British cities. I never really expressed an opinion on this (except on the issue of commas vs. parentheses), I was seeking clairification of what the standard was in regards to Cornwall. Mintguy indicated that a comprimise had been reached on that issue, so I thought that this should be noted on the page. - Efghij 22:22 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, so does everyone agree that we should use commas rather than parenthesis for cities outside the US as well as inside the US? - i.e., Armidale, New South Wales, not Armidale (New South Wales)? (I don't really care either way, but it would be nice to know which one to use.) Tannin 00:03 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I thought that this issue had been agreed ages ago, and this is what I had understood was the agreed consensus.
 * Where a placename is well known and no other articles exist to conflict with it, no disambiguation is required. Should new articles cause disambiguation to become necessary, the placename should become a disambiguation page and the claimants to that name should be suitably disambiguated. If the one of the claimants to the placename is of much greater significance, (judged, roughly by the number of links expected for that place), then it may claim that placename and disambiguation should be moved to placename (disambiguation).
 * For places outside of the USA; commas will be used by default, where disambiguation is essential. However the choice of words used for disambiguation should be decided on a case-by-case basis (as there are likely to be too many exceptions to any clearly defined or hard and fast rule).
 * Placenames of the US, will use automatic disambiguation with commas, as per the normal practice in the USA.
 * Mintguy 00:30 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * The only problem I have with this statement is the decision as to when "one of the claimants to the placename is of much greater significance." It is hard to go by "number of links expected for that place" because that depends on who is creating articles and what articles one creates. You will find a large number of links to "Schenectady, New York" (many of them placed by me) not because of the great importance of that city in general, but because there was a series of articles on New York State counties I created, with historical information that (because the same information belonged in the articles on a lot of them) was duplicated essentially in toto. And this information contained a reference to Schenectady to give a geographic definition of the boundaries of one former county. This is the reason for over 30 links to Schenectady. -- BRG July 14, 2003

 * OK, a few points about this: Do we have a disambiguation issue with Schenectady? It appears not. Ok, so I guess you are using this as a general example rather than as a specific case. Well firstly, the Rambot created about 40,000 articles about places in the USA, so for many places the current count of references to them outweigh their actual relative significance. (There are plenty of UK town as yet undocumented like Basingstoke(pop. approx 90,000), Blackburn(pop. approx 115,000), and Middlesbrough(pop. approx 150,000)). Secondly, as has been pointed out countless times the use of comma disambiguation is not only common for US place names, it is the norm. Thirdly, note my use of the word "expected", (I've highlighted it), in the above para. As Duffy points out below, if a placename is of "international recognition" you would 'expect' to get a large number of links. Mintguy 08:17 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The answer is simple. To each nation, a local city is the one with the name. But internationally, people usually identify a name with one location. When people see Dublin internationally they think Ireland. All the other Dublins just have a national, not an international recognition so they need to be disambigulated, Dublin in Ireland doesn't. London worldwide means London in England, so all the other Londons require disambigulation. Washington worldwide means the capital of the US, so all the other Washingtons need disambigulation. Ditto Paris, Berlin, Navan, Sydney, Berne, Little Rock, Exeter, Truro etc etc. If one place has an international recognition under that name, it gets it. Size doesn't come into it. Navan in Ireland has 25,000 residents. Another Navan I heard of has 1.5 million. But internationally Navan in Ireland is the name, known worldwide for reasons of history, its assocation with internationally known 19th century politican Charles Stewart Parnell, because of its famed Navan Carpets that are bought worldwide and its close situation to the worldwide famous tourist site Newgrange burial chamber. Similarly Kells in Ireland is known worldwide for the Book of Kells, which hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world come to see. So the American Kells, and the other Kells in Ireland need to disambigulate as they do not have the same name recognition factor. The scale of the recognition, not the size of the entity, is what decided which gets first call on the name. FearÉIREANN 19:19 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * There is a point where the choice has to be a judgement call, because sometimes the raw numbers, in either Wikipedia or Google, do skew the results, and you may or may not know that they're skewed. I look at the back links, see if there's an obvious theme, maybe see if a single user is involved and ask that user, and of course there's always the pump.  New articles have something like a 30-50% chance of being moved, so I just create and then wait to see if anybody has a better idea. Most of the time, if somebody goes to the trouble of moving somebody else's article, it's because they have specific knowledge about the names. Stan 19:24 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So it is definitely commas? Or not? Tannin

I would prefer not, with the use of brackets instead, at least for non-American locations. The [x, y]] form is a style used mainly in American english and certainly Europeans dislike are not exactly fans of such a system to put it mildly. (The famous M. Monroe Paris, France line always grates on the ears of people. As did listening to people in Friends talking about visiting "London, England".) But as it is a form used in the US, I don't see why Americans should have to abandon their beloved comma. We are learning step by step just how different english is used in different parts of the world. This seems another example. Personally I'd much prefer to use Cork (Ireland) than Cork, Ireland, which is a form that nobody but American tourists use and is a linguistic equivalent of the Big Mac, only less unhealthy! :-) A rule that says, In the US, people use the comma, elsewhere they don't. So when referring to US locations use the American comma, elsewhere use a bracket disambigulation is perfectly workable. And again it avoids wiki appearing americocentric to international readers, which is always a danger and which might make wiki ''less' appealing as a sourcebook to non-Americans. Worldbook was damaged in the 1970s when it allowed itself to come across in effect as Americabook, using American english, American grammar, capitalisation etc and focusing far too heavily on what appealed to Americans rather than something that had a broader appeal. It is in our interests to show the sensitivity it lacked, if we want wiki to be as accessible and as acceptable in Canberra as in Chicago, Dublin and Dubai as in Detroit, etc. User:Jtdirl

 * Australians and Canadians also use comas - or at least that is what some Australians and Canadians have told me. But then, what do they know? ;-) That said I do not support the use of commas where they are not already common. --mav

I think there are plenty of reasons given in the 36 kilobytes above for avoiding the commas in the titles of articles on European towns and cities. Commas might come in handy in exceptional cases, but that's another thing. -- Ruhrjung 06:27 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Has anyone provided any argument at all for using commas for disambiguation outside the US and Canada? I strongly support the standard and almost universal Wikipedia convention of using parentheses for disambiguation unless there are good reasons to make an exception. Refering to places as "City, Country" is, as far as I am aware, only a US/Canada thing. I've skimmed through the above discussion looking for any rational arguments for extending the US/Canada convention to any other countries, but I can't see one. I may have just missed them, though. If there are any, could someone please summarise them very briefly? And if there aren't, I think we should make it official policy to use the comma convention only for the US and Canada. -- Oliver P. 12:12 15 Jul 2003 (UTC) P.S. - Oh, and possibly Australia. I'm getting mixed messages about Australia from the above...

 * I have no objection to using commas. We do see it here in Oz from time to time. (Mind you, we also see McDonalds stores, and morons with baseball caps on backwards, and various other unwelcome imports, so that ain't telling us much that is useful.) On the whle, I probably lean the tiniest bit toward commas anyway - but I have no objection to parenthesis either. Whatever people decide is fine by me. Essentially, I'd just like to see one style or another adopted as the rest-of-the-world convention reasonably promptly so that I know what to do next time a city disambiguation crops up.

 * By the way, just in case anyone has missed the point, this is not about disambiguating every place name in sight, it is only for situations where we have two places with the same name. Tannin

I note that Googling for "exeter england", with "co.uk" to prune out most American refs, turns up a number of comma-separated instances. Some are probably written with an American audience in mind, but many uses are in addresses, as in "17 Lyndhurst Road, Exeter, England EX2 4PA". Many uses are also comma-less, just "Exeter England". I didn't see any that said "Exeter (England)" :-) The same trick with "brest france" was less consistent, with lots of "Brest-France" or just "Brest France", some "Brest (France)", and shock horror, even a native Dane using "Brest, France", also a Scottish company . Stan 13:50 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Addresses don't count.They always use commas. How else could you write an address if you didn't use commas? Tannin

 * That Google search only returns about 610 results (compared with about 213,000 if you remove the "england"), so I think that proves that it's quite rare. In the case of addresses, there is no dispute, as Tannin says. An address is a comma-separated list of placenames which by convention we use on envelopes to ensure that they get to the right place. We don't normally speak in envelopese, though. ;) In the cases that aren't addresses, a lot are in headings, which often follow strange rules - whatever the "house style" for that particular website is. And a lot of the matches are on pages belonging to holiday companies, travel companies, and international organisations that may just be trying to be American-friendly or something... But I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that British people call Exeter "Exeter, England", so I don't know why I'm even arguing this. I suppose an argument could be made that if the Americans call Exeter "Exeter, England", and if they make up a larger proportion of Wikipedians than the British people do, then their naming convention should take priority. But I don't really like that argument. :) -- Oliver P. 14:24 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Hmm, perhaps Exeter wasn't a good example, since it's already been argued over; I'm in complete agreement that the Exeter in England is famous enought to be just "Exeter". I was thinking more about how people title places uniquely when they absolutely have to, and one of the things that some Europeans seem to do in practice is to use commas to separate city and place.  Perhaps it's by analogy to postal addresses, perhaps it's because they find the American practice convenient (omigod, Europeans thinking an American habit is good? naw, can't be :-) ). I don't really have a strong feeling for commas over parens - Google will find the articles either way, we just need a reliable rule.  So here's a more realistic example - should it be Boston, England or Boston (England)? Stan 17:21 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wouldent putting the (England) or (Scotland) in brackets instead of using a comma mean that every single article about a place in Britain would have to be changed, who's going to volenteer to do that....certainly not me. I personally dont have any problem with the comma G-Man 19:19 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Quite a lot of the articles will have to be changed anyway, G-Man. But the sooner we arrive at a consensus for commas, parenthesis, or something else, the fewer articles wil need changing. Tannin

Who's going to volunteer? Me. I volunteer. I think it'll be quite fun moving all those pages. :) Boston (England)! -- Oliver P. 23:19 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I think we should have a vote. Personally as much as I hate commas, I've got used to them. I think the parenthesis looks ugly. What's wrong with Boston in England. Or actually as there is Boston Spa to contend with - Boston in Lincolnshire. Mintguy 23:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * What do the foreign Wikis do? Mintguy....2 mins later... I looked up Boston and find the the German wiki uses Boston (Massachusetts).

On the issue of American comma usage, when researching an article for wiki last night I came across a speech made by an Italian cardinal which was taken down by the American organisation he was speaking to. They called him (I forget his name) ''Cardinal (whatever he name was), Vatican City, Europe. And no it wasn't as an address to contact him at. They were just saying where he was from for the reader in americanese. That was the first time I ever saw Vatican City, Europe!!! Re Stan's google search above, the basic point is that only in addresses do most people outside the US, Can & Aust use commas. I for example would never say I ws going to Frankfurt, Germany (as American friends of mine do) but Frankfurt in Germany. In fact, even if the accent doesn't reveal it or their size (or if they are tourists to Ireland, their wearing of green trousers, "kiss me I'm Irish" hats and a plastic "made in Hong Kong" shilleaghs - I'm not kidding. That's what American tourists wear over here, oh and Aran jumpers, while drinking guinness) hearing someone say "I am going to Frankfurt, Germany" shows they aren't European and are almost certainly American or Canadian. FearÉIREANN 23:49 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * You know, a remarkable number of your talk page comments repeatedly bring up all these complaints about American tourists in Europe. Are you wishing that all the American tourists would just go away and spend their money elsewhere in the world, or are you saying they should all try to pretend not to be Americans?  You're sounding just like those American yahoos who grumble about visitors "spikkin' furrin langwidges raht in front of everbody".  I guess prejudice is universal. Stan 00:30 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Only a little gentle teasing, my good man! :-) I love American tourists (and their dollars!). But everyone finds their preoccupation with green trousers comic. Believe me, it is a sight to behold. I was waiting at a bus-stop beside a tourist office on O'Connell Street once and in six minutes counted nine couples in their 60s and 70s, the women extra-large, the men wearing identical green trousers, all speaking with american accents. Hardly any Irish people wear green. American tourists wear green blazers, ties and trousers (though where they buy them I don't know. I have never ever seen a pair of emerald green trousers for sale anywhere in Ireland!) But then tourists all have their unique features. Spanish students visiting Ireland are very very loud. German men in their 30s seem to love leather trousers (and standing waiting for a 'cross' sign before they cross the road, even when there is not a car within 100 yards). And the Irish seem to love drinking Busweizer at home and guinness abroad! wikilove, FearÉIREANN 01:10 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Nonsense! My prejudice is better than your prejudice. :) Tannin

BTW I think using Cornwall is wrong. Some Cornish people may will they were independent, but they aren't. Factually they are in England. That is the NPOV reality. Accepting Cornwall is POV. It may be a POV some of us would like, but it is still POV. After all, parts of Northern Italy want independence, but we don't give them a separate reference to the rest of Italy. What do we do about the Basque country in Spain? I suspect we use Spain. So Cornwall is unambiguously wrong on wiki. FearÉIREANN 23:49 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I warn you Duffy, you are openign a can of worms there. As much as I am in agreement with you about the status of Cornwall, user:sjc isn't and has reverted Cornwall et al very many times when challenged on its status. Mintguy

 * And I can think of several Bavarians, who would react somewhat similarly: If Town, State is the rule, then why not for the German states? (Luckily, I've not yet seen any traces of such people in this English language Wikipedia: Nuremberg, Bavaria, Bayreuth, Bavaria ...)
 * Town (in Country) or Town (Country) remain my preferences,
 * although "(Country)" when needed ought to be substituted by more suitable entities. I don't understand why it should be neccessary to fixate requirements on sovereignty or degree of autonomous government or...
 * -- Ruhrjung 06:18 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I just thought I should draw people's attention to this fine argument by Toby Bartels, which explains the American point of view about the "City, State" format. It seems that to an American, "Lincoln, Nebraska" is the full name of that town, in much the same way that "Abraham Lincoln" is the full name of Abraham Lincoln. (Or that "Kingston upon Hull" is the full name of Hull, I suppose. Or that "Exeter" is the full name of Exeter.) Which would mean that the "City, State" format isn't really disambiguation any more than "Forename Surname" is for people. And so the American placenames shouldn't be thought of as an exception to the usual Wikipedia disambiguation rules, and so there is no reason at all to cast aside the usual Wikipedia disambiguation rules for places in other countries! Oh, all right, I haven't explained that very well. Just read Toby's argument, and you should be convinced. -- Oliver P. 04:29 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yup. I've always had no problem with using the comma in the case of the US - my feeling is that if the US does things that way we should respect that. But Toby's argument has convinced me even more strongly of the sense of allowing the US (and Canada and Australia) to use their beloved comma. I do not know of any other country that uses commas like that; maybe we should compile a list. For those on the list, the rule would be comma orientated. For everywhere else, only if it needs disambigulation should one be provided, and then in parentheses. Good work finding Toby's comment, Oliver. FearÉIREANN 05:00 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Seems like a good arguement. That does not apply to Canada. Canadians use commas when nessiccary for clairity, but no one considers Toronto's full name to be "Toronto, Ontario". May Torontonians prefer "Toronto, Canada", but no one would call LA "Los Angeles, United States". If we do adopt the format of [Town], [Town (Country)] when nessiccary, I sugjest that it should apply to Canada too. - Efghij

 * The first name / last name explanation is interesting but I don't think it quite captures the situation - for instance, the official full name of a city does not include the state name. It's more that USians have learned to disambiguate.  If I'm in Texas but outside Lamar County, and say "I'm from Paris" the instant reaction will be "You don't sound French - you must mean Paris, Texas."  As you can see from disambig pages, a large percentage of names have been reused, and so if I'm from a small town and visiting another state, I preemptively add the state name just to avoid confusion.  The need for disambiguation changes over time and with context; if I'm at an Apple show in Boston and say "I'm from Cupertino" the reaction is likely to be "Cool, did you go to high school with Steve Jobs?", and having been primed by that :-), I'll say the same thing to the hotel clerk, who gives me a blank stare - I have to add "in California" and probably "near San Francisco". If I'm talking to a govt official, I'll say "Cupertino, California" because I don't expect the official to have the vaguest idea where Cupertino is, and chances the state will be needed on a form.  But if I said "New York, New York" to the same official, that would be borderline smart-alecky, implying lack of IQ - "New York City" would be a better answer.  Also, there is considerable variation among individuals; the only behaviors that would excite comment would be to add state name always, or to never add it even when obviously needed. Stan 13:34 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)