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Talk:Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote

change of title
Can we change the title of this article from "Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote" to "Isoroku Yamamoto's alleged sleeping giant quotation?" Why should we expect the word "quote" to do the work of both a noun and a verb when we have "quotation" ready to use as the former? 165.91.64.199 (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)RKH

replaced all uses of the word quote with the word quotation in the actual text and i also correcte the grammar of the quotation itself. 76.68.204.52 (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

From Votes for deletion

 * Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quote - somewhat unverifiable analysis, this is interesting research into the veracity of the quote, but it seems to be more appropriate as the beginning of a snopes.com piece rather than a Wikipedia article. Daniel Quinlan 09:47, Aug 3, 2003 (UTC)
 * It's at least as valid as the Bill Gates "Open letter to hobbyists" article. Keep. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 16:37, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree that the subject matter is on the borderline - at best - for an encyclopaedia. It turns out it's not suitable for snopes.com, because it falls outside their definition of an urban legend (which includes multiple variants). If we can find a site which will take the content, and which is not likely to disappear (so much web content is *not* permanent - Snopes itself might easily go away if the maintainers - a couple - can't continue, and nobody is around to pick up from them) then yeah, we can lose it. Until then, it has real content (some of which would be very hard for the average person to find out on their own), people use it (I did!), and it's "mostly harmless". -- Noel 15:13, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * I needed it — Please keep, TORA! TORA! TORA!'s directors need Wikipedia entries also. - Sparky 12:01, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * Found this article useful. Citing some sources would be great, but this is far from the sort of thing Wikipedia needs to worry about cleaning out - just cleaning up.

I think it's time to quit using Wikipedia to forward the idea of REVISIONIST HISTORY. Translating JAPANESE is an INEXACT SCIENCE at best. People work on expressing the MEANING, not the exact words in a statement. The only language that comes close to exact meaning in words is GERMAN, and you STILL have to work on the EXACT meaning of what the author has to say. ( For example, Does MIEN KAMPF mean " My STRUGGLE " or " MY BATTLE ( or WAR ) "?

I disagree with translation being an inexact science. A talented and knowledgeable translator can translate quotes quite accurately. In fact, Japanese is one of the easier languages to match up directly with English provided you finagle with grammatical and sentence structure enough. Because words in Japanese are made up of kanji compounds, and each kanji typically corresponds more or less directly with an English word, phrase, or idiom, the meaning and "feeling" of a Japanese sentence is rather easy to express in English. However, for this article the actual Japanese quote (or alleged quote) should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.28.179.6 (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Aeb1barfo 16:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I happen to be bilingual in Japanese and English. Japanese is not an easy language to translate into English.Oldbubblehead (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Napoleon
If Yamamoto did indeed say it, he might have been paraphrasing Napoleon, who said something very similar about China. I typed napoleon china sleeping giant into Google and got over 5000 hits.

 * Are you serious? I typed alien napoleon INSTANT DEATH RAY into google and got 311,000 results.  Hardly a reliable source to find out if anyone said something.  Liquidtenmillion 23:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * It seems like he had a point though; just taking the first quote, it seems Napoleon said "China is a sleeping giant. Let her lie and sleep, for when she awakens she will astonish the world." Similar enough, eh?

 * I disagree, I only got 161,000. Aaрон Кинни  (t) 09:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research
Is this article not original research? It certainly has an air of it. Ben Finn (talk) 17:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Giant, or tiger?
Is this the correct translation? (Some) Swedish history books says that he talked about a sleeping tiger, not giant. Are the books incorrect? 81.16.160.34 (talk) 08:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Most sources agree that the term Yamamoto used is "kyojin", giant, or more literally (translating each kanji in the kanji compound) "huge person".

No Japanese?
Does no one have the original Japanese text? If someone can find, cut and paste the original Japanese text I could provide a literal translation. In the American film "Pearl Harbor", Yamamoto is quoted as saying something along the lines of "眠れ巨人が起こらせた可能があるな”, which if literally translated, "I believe a sleeping giant may have been awakened" is a huge departure.

In fact, now that I think about it, this article is in desperate need of touching up. Yamamoto's quote "I can run wild for six months..." and several others also need the original Japanese text. I mean, even Wiki articles about Japanese video games feature the original Japanese titles, why not an article of some significance such as this one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.28.179.6 (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I have provided a reference to the original source (below). If you can gain access to a copy, and transcribe the original, that would be great. Noel (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The 'Run wild' quotation
The 'run wild' quotation text was changed in this version of the article to read:

 * "I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success" which may be true, but there are no primary source documents to support it" (emphasis mine)

and gives a reference to Haruo Tohmatsu, A Gathering Darkness. However, one review of this book chides it for "factual inaccuracies", and it appears there may be another one here.

Agawa, 'Reluctant Admiral' gives the quote (pg. 189), and says it was said to Fumimaro Konoe during a meeting at the end of September, 1940. Alas, my English translation of Agawa does not give source notes, so in this edition at least it is not sourced. The text does indicate that there is confirmation that such a meeting happened, in a contemporaneous letter from Yamamoto to Shimada Shigetaru, which Agawa quotes directly.

Prange, 'At Dawn We Slept' also gives the quote (pg. 10), and attributes it to "Reports of General MacArthur: Japanese Operations in the Southwest Pacific Area: Volume II - Part I", pg. 33, n. 1. Here we run into luck, as this is now available online, and in fact the note cited in Prange is here. The "n. 1" in Prange appears to be a typo for "n. 14", as Note 14 concerns the Yamamoto quotation. It reads (in its entirety):

 * In a conversation with Premier Konoye shortly after the conclusion of the Tripartite Alliance in September 1940, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet, stated with regard to a Japanese-American war: "If I am told to fight regardless of the consequences, I shall run wild for the first six months or a year, but I have utterly no confidence for the second or third year. The Tripartite Pact has been concluded, and we cannot help it. Now that the situation has come to this pass, I hope you will endeavor to avoid a Japanese-American war."

The source is recorded as being "Konoye Ayamaro Ko Shuki (Memoirs of Prince Ayamaro Konoye), p. 3." The existence (and publication) of such a volume is attested to by the Japanese National Diet Library, which indicates it was published by Asahi Shimbun-sha, in 1946.

Now, I don't have access to a copy of that volume, but given that both Agawa (which Tohmatsu and Willmott themselves describe as "carefully researched", n. 26, pg. 102) and the MacArthur book give the passage, apparently translated independently (given the differences in the text in the two versions), I'd say that's pretty good confirmation that it in fact says what these two well-respected books say it does.

 * Prange was the chief historian at SCAP and as such was the primary author of the Reports of General MacArthur.Oldbubblehead (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

And if the memoirs of one of the two people present at the meeting aren't a good enough "primary source document", what is?

Interestingly, neither the Agawa version nor the MacArthur version is the same as the one given in the article ("I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success")! I am the person who added it originally, but that was in 2003, and I no longer can remember which book I found it in (and a search in Google Books gave no result). I have this vague memory that this version was given to a minister other than the Prime Minister; if I manage to track down the source, I will add it.

Anyway, I propose we put some translation of this back as a confirmed quotation by Yamamoto. Noel (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone changed the "critical turning point" in the Pacific War from the Battle of Midway to the Doolittle raid. Almost all historians consider Midway to be the turning point. The Doolittle raid was a mere pinprick and which was more about U.S. morale than it was about damaging the Japanese. I think this edit should be reverted. If there are no objections I will do soOldbubblehead (talk) 07:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Yamamoto quote.
The book 'Admiral of the pacific' included this quote line line. I read it about 1965. So the line precedes any mentioned here. Potter, John deane Published by Heinemann, London, UK (1965) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.20.87.12 (talk) 05:35, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

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Unduly implied invention
While it's true that there is no proof that Yamamoto said this exact 'giant' quote, it's not exactly pulled out of thin air either. The Reluctant Admiral cites Yamamoto after Pearl Harbor saying that if you smite a sleeping enemy, he will awaken angry and counterattack. I think most readers would comfortably come to the conclusion that this quote is 'close nuff' yet the article seems to be going out of its way to suggest nothing like it was ever uttered. The quote is buried beneath unsourced and prejudicial commentary. As a brief mention in Safire is the only real source for the mystery, I think it constitutes borderline WP:UNDUE to shift this article so heavily against the quote existing. Granted, we also shouldn't unduly suggest Reluctant Admiral is the genesis without secondary sources, but fair is fair and it's not for the editors to say what, if anything, the quote comes from. 24.251.106.103 (talk) 21:20, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Don McNeill quote
The December 8, 1941 quotation from Don McNeill can be heard at 49:30 in his show: Johnvr4 (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Misattribution?
The "sleeping giant" part is also attributed to Admiral Chuichi Nagumo in a somewhat different form here: https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chuichi_Nagumo

Which has this source: "Energy Technology XI: Applications and Economics" - Page 988 - Richard F. Hill - Science - 1975

Notably, this is 5 years after Tora, Tora, Tora! and thus might be downstream of the initial alleged misquote. The book is $500 and not on any online source I could find, so if anyone has access to it it might have a thread to pull on if it sourced itself properly. Ketura01 (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


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Talk:Pentagonal Revisionism

From Votes for deletion

 * Pentagonal Revisionism - Irrelevant, obscure, non-encyclopedic. If deletion is not supported, could be merged with Church of Satan. Kosebamse 12:50, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. Wikipedia is not paper. Delete only if factually incorrect. Merging should only be considered after a while, if the article does not expand beyond stub length. There are many articles much more in need of merging. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick

The stratification article lists several meanings for the word. Is it the anthropological sense that the Church of Satan advocates?--AaronW 22:09, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Pentagonal Revisionism


text: User:JoeM

title: User:JoeM


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Hangul Day

The Korean Alphabet Day, known as Hangeul Day in South Korea, and Chosŏn'gŭl Day  in North Korea, is a national Korean commemorative day marking the invention and proclamation of Hangul (한글), the Korean alphabet, by the 15th-century Korean king Sejong the Great. It is observed on October 9 in South Korea and January 15th in North Korea. Excluding the years 1990 to 2012, when the government maximized business days to expedite industrial growth, Hangul Day has been a national holiday in South Korea since 1970.

Synopsis
October 9 is dedicated to spreading information and use of Hangul. Because Hangul is one of the few writing systems where both the founder and the founding date are known, the day is also dedicated to commemorating the achievements of King Sejong. The Government of South Korea legislated an amendment regarding the holiday:

"Language Amendment Section 20 (Hangeul Day)

1. Government shall dictate every October 9 as Hangeul Day with commemorative event in order to spread Hangeul's originality and scientific superiority, further enhancing pan-national awareness and affection towards the language; 2. Matters regarding commemorative event above shall abide presidential decree."

The holiday is celebrated in both South and North Korea. In the south the holiday is formally known as Hangeul Proclamation Day, or Hangeul Day for short, and is celebrated on October 9 to commemorate the promulgation of the Hunminjeongeum on October 9, 1446. In the north the holiday is formally known as Chosŏn'gŭl Day, and is celebrated on January 15 to commemorate the creation of the Hunminjeongeum on January 15, 1444.

The Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture in China has also designated September 2 as the official "Day of the Korean Language" since 2014.

History
Before the creation of Hangul, people in Korea (known as Joseon at the time) primarily wrote using Classical Chinese alongside native phonetic writing systems that predated Hangul by hundreds of years, including idu, hyangchal, gugyeol, and gakpil. However, due to the fundamental differences between the Korean and Chinese languages, and the large number of characters needed to be learned, there was much difficulty in learning how to write using Chinese characters for the lower classes, who often didn't have the privilege of education. To assuage this problem, King Sejong created the unique alphabet known as Hangul to promote literacy among the common people. Hangul Proclamation Day has been celebrated annually in South Korea on October 9 since 1970. However, this does not include the period from 1990 to 2012 since people were required to work for their businesses on this day instead of taking time off. It is also celebrated in North Korea on January 15. Despite all of Hangul's benefits, it nearly went out of existence during the Joseon dynasty. The elite of the time wanting to preserve their status saw Chinese characters as the only true way to write Korean. In the early 16th century, Hangul was effectively banned by the king. However, Hangul had a resurgence in the 19th century, and gradually grew more and more common, especially due to its role in Korean nationalism during the era of Japanese occupation. By the 1970s the use of Chinese characters declined, and these days, almost all Korean is written in Hangul.

According to the Sejong Sillok (세종실록; 世宗實綠), King Sejong proclaimed publication of Hunmin Jeongeum (훈민정음; 訓民正音), the document introducing the newly created alphabet which was also originally called by the same name, in the ninth month of the lunar calendar in 1446. In 1926, the Korean Language Society, whose goal was to preserve the Korean language during a time of rapid forced Japanization, celebrated the octosexigesimal (68th) anniversary of the declaration of hangeul on the last day of the ninth month of the lunar calendar, which is on November 4 of the Gregorian calendar. Members of the Society declared it the first observance of "Gagyanal" (가갸날). The name came from "Gagyageul" (가갸글), an early colloquial name for hangeul, based on a mnemonic recitation beginning "gagya geogyeo..." (가갸거겨). The name of the commemorative day was changed to "Hangullal" in 1928, soon after the term "hangul", coined originally in 1913 by Ju Sigyeong, became widely accepted as the new name for the alphabet. The day was then celebrated according to the lunar calendar.

In 1931, the celebration of the day was switched to October 29 of the Gregorian Calendar, the calendar which is in contemporary use. Three years later, the date was moved to October 28, to coordinate the date with that of the Julian Calendar, which had been in use during the 15th century, when King Sejong had made his proclamation.

The discovery in 1940 of an original copy of the Hunmin Jeongeum Haerye, a volume of commentary to the Hunmin Jeongeum that appeared not long after the document it commented upon, revealed that the Hunmin Jeongeum was announced during the first ten days (sangsun; 상순; 上旬) of the ninth month. The tenth day of the ninth month of the 1446 lunar calendar was equivalent to October 9 of that same year's Julian calendar. The South Korean government, established in 1945, declared October 9 to be Hangeul Day, a yearly legal holiday which excused government employees from work.

Major employers pressured the South Korean government to increase the country's annual number of work days. In 1991, to balance out the adoption of the United Nations Day, it vacated Hangeul Day's status as a holiday. By law, Hangeul Day remained a national commemoration day, and the Hangeul Society campaigned for the holiday's restoration. On November 1, 2012, the Society won that campaign, when the National Assembly voted 189 to 4 (with 4 abstaining) in favor of a resolution that called for the return of Hangeul Day as a national holiday. This put pressure on the Lee Myung Bak administration, which applied the change in 2013.

Celebrations
In 2009, a heavy bronze Statue of King Sejong was revealed to the public Sejongno, Gwanghwamun Plaza in central Seoul, South Korea. It towers over citizens and tourists at approximately 6.2 metres (20.3 feet) high. Underneath the large golden statue there is a museum, which many people visit on Hangul Day. Inside the museum there are many exhibits explaining the creation of the alphabet and technological advancements made during King Sejong's reign.

title: Hangul Day


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User talk:Mowgli~enwiki

Hi Mowgli, welcome to Wikipedia. Hope you like it here. Nice work on several India related articles :-) -- Arvindn

Hi, it is wikipedia policy not to have source texts, so I've deleted the nursery rhyme articles. I would have stubbed them, but there is no encyclopedic content. jimfbleak 13:38, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Welcome
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Mithra

Mithra ( Miθra, Miθra), commonly known as Mehr or Mithras among Romans, is an ancient Iranian deity of covenants, light, oath, justice, the sun, contracts, and friendship. In addition to being the divinity of contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing protector of Truth, and the guardian of cattle, the harvest, and the Waters.

The Romans attributed their Mithraic mysteries to Zoroastrian Persian sources relating to Mithra. Since the early 1970s, the dominant scholarship has noted dissimilarities between the Persian and Roman traditions, making it, at most, the result of Roman perceptions of Zoroastrian ideas.

Etymology
Together with the Vedic common noun mitra, the Avestan common noun miθra derives from Proto-Indo-Iranian *mitrám (Mitra), from the root *mi- "to bind", with the "tool suffix" -tra- "causing to". Thus, etymologically mitra/miθra means "that which causes binding", preserved in the Avestan word for "Covenant, Contract, Oath".

In Middle Iranian languages (Middle Persian, Parthian etc.), miθra became mihr, from which New Persian مهر mehr and Armenian մհեր mihr/mher ultimately derive.

In scripture
Like most other divinities, Mithra is not mentioned by name in the Gathas, the oldest texts of Zoroastrianism and traditionally attributed to Zoroaster himself, or by name in the Yasna Haptanghaiti, a seven-verse section of the Yasna liturgy that is linguistically as old as the Gathas. As a member of the Iranian ahuric triad, along with Ahura Mazda and Ahura Berezaiti (Apam Napat), Mithra is an exalted figure. Together with Rashnu "Justice" and Sraosha "Obedience", Mithra is one of the three judges at the Chinvat Bridge, the "Bridge of Separation" that all souls must cross. Unlike Sraosha, however, Mithra is not a psychopomp, a guide of souls to the place of the dead. Should the Good Thoughts, Words, and Deeds outweigh the Bad, Sraosha alone conveys the Soul across the Bridge.

As the god of contract, Mithra is undeceivable, infallible, eternally watchful, and never-resting. Mithra is additionally the protector of cattle, and his stock epithet is "of Wide Pastures." He is guardian of the waters and ensures that those pastures receive enough of it.

The lack of Mithra's presence in the texts was once a cause of some consternation amongst Iranians. An often repeated speculation of the first half of the 20th century was that the lack of any mention (i.e., Zoroaster's silence) of Mithra in these texts implied that Zoroaster had rejected Mithra. This ex silentio speculation is no longer followed. Building on that speculation was another series of speculations, which postulated that the reason why Zoroaster did not mention Mithra was that the latter was the supreme God of a bloodthirsty group of daeva-worshipers that Zoroaster condemned. However, "no satisfactory evidence has yet been adduced to show that, before Zoroaster, the concept of a supreme god existed among the Iranians, or that among them Mithra – or any other divinity – ever enjoyed a separate cult of his or her own outside either their ancient or their Zoroastrian pantheons."

The Avestan Hymn to Mithra (Yasht 10) is the longest, and one of the best-preserved, of the Yashts. Mithra is described in the Zoroastrian Avesta scriptures as "Mithra of Wide Pastures, of the Thousand Ears, and of the Myriad Eyes," (Yasna 1:3), "the Lofty, and the Everlasting... the Province Ruler,"(Yasna 1:11), "the Yazad (Divinity) of the Spoken Name" (Yasna 3:5), and "the Holy," (Yasna 3:13). The Khorda Avesta (Book of Common Prayer) also refer to Mithra in the Litany to the Sun, "Homage to Mithra of Wide Cattle Pastures," (Khwarshed Niyayesh 5), "Whose Word is True, who is of the Assembly, Who has a Thousand Ears, the Well-Shaped One, Who has Ten Thousand Eyes, the Exalted One, Who has Wide Knowledge, the Helpful One, Who Sleeps Not, the Ever Wakeful. We sacrifice to Mithra, The Lord of all countries, Whom Ahura Mazda created the most glorious, Of the Supernatural Yazads. So may there come to us for Aid, Both Mithra and Ahura, the Two Exalted Ones,"(Khwarshed Niyayesh 6-7), "I shall sacrifice to his mace, well-aimed against the Skulls of the Daevas" (Khwarshed Niyayesh 15). Some recent theories have claimed Mithra represents the Sun itself, but the Khorda Avesta refers to the Sun as a separate entity – as it does with the Moon, with which the Sun has "the Best of Friendships," (Khwarshed Niyayesh 15).

In inscriptions
Although there is no known Mithraic iconography in the Achaemenid period, the deity is invoked in several royal Achaemenid inscriptions:

In Artaxerxes II's (r. 404 – 358 B.C.) trilingual (Old Persian, Elamite, and Babylonian) inscription at Susa (A2Sa) and Hamadan (A2Hc), which have the same text, the emperor appeals to "Ahuramazda, Anahita, and Mithra protect me against all evil," and beseeches them to protect what he has built.

Although the Behistun inscription of Darius I (r. 522 – 486 B.C.) invokes Ahuramazda and "the Other Gods who are", this inscription of Artaxerxes II is remarkable as no Achaemenid king before him had invoked any but Ahura Mazda alone by name. Boyce suggests that the reason for this was that Artaxerxes had chosen Anahita and Mithra as his patron/protector Divinities.

Mithra is invoked again in the single known inscription of Artaxerxes III, A3Pa, found at Persepolis. In that inscription, that emperor appeals to "Ahuramazda and the God Mithra preserve me, my country, and what has been built by me."

In tradition

In the Zoroastrian calendar, the sixteenth day of the month and the seventh month of the year are dedicated to and are under the protection of Mithra. The Iranian civil calendar of 1925 adopted Zoroastrian month-names, and as such also has the seventh month of the year named "Mihr". The position of the sixteenth day and seventh month reflects Mithra's rank in the hierarchy of the Divinities; the sixteenth day and seventh month are respectively the first day of the second half of the month and the first month of the second half of the year. The day on which the day-name and month-name dedications intersect is (like all other such intersections) dedicated to the divinity of that day/month, and is celebrated with a Jashan (from Avestan Yasna, "Worship") in honor of that Divinity. In the case of Mithra, this was Jashan-e Mehregan, or just Mehregan for short.

In Zoroastrian scripture, Mithra is distinct from the divinity of the Sun, Hvare-khshaeta (literally "Radiant Sun", from which the Middle Persian word Khorshed for the Sun). However, in Zoroastrian tradition, Mithra evolved from being an all-seeing figure (hence vaguely associated with the Sun) into a divinity co-identified with the Sun itself, effectively taking over Hvare-khshaeta's role. It is uncertain how and when and why this occurred, but it is commonly attributed to conflation with the Babylonian sun god Shamash and/or the Greek deity Apollo, with whom Mithra shares multiple characteristics such as a judicial function and association with the Sun. This characteristic is part of Mithra's Indo-Iranian inheritance in that the Indic Rigveda has solar divinities that are not distinct from Mithra, who is associated with sunrise in the Atharvaveda. Om Mitraya Namaha is a Hindu mantra chanted in the practice of Sun Salutation, wherein Mitra is a name of the god of the Sun, Surya.

Royal names incorporating Mithra's (e.g., "Mithradates") appear in the dynasties of Parthia, Armenia, and in Anatolia, in Pontus and Cappadocia.

The youthful Apollonian-type Mithra is found in images from other countries of Iranian culture in the Parthian period, such as Commagene in the Roman-Parthian border and the Kushan Empire on the Indo-Iranian border.

In Manichaeism
Persian and Parthian-speaking Manichaeans used the name of Mithra current in their time (Mihryazd, q.e. Mithra-yazata) for two different Manichaean angels.

 * 1) The first, called Mihryazd by the Persians, was the "Living Spirit" (Aramaic rūḥā ḥayyā), a savior-figure who rescues the "First Man" from the demonic Darkness into which he had plunged.
 * 2) The second, known as Mihr or Mihr Yazd among the Parthians, is the "Messenger" (Aramaic īzgaddā), likewise a savior figure, but one concerned with setting up the structures to liberate the Light lost when the First Man had been defeated.

The second figure mentioned above, the Third Messenger, was the helper and redeemer of mankind, and identified with another Zoroastrian divinity, Narisaf (derived from Pahlavi Narsēh from Avestan Nairyō.saȵhō, meaning 'Potent Utterance', the name of a Yazata). Citing Boyce, Sundermann remarks, "It was among the Parthian Manicheans that Mithra as a Sun God surpassed the importance of Narisaf as the common Iranian image of the Third Messenger; among the Parthians the dominance of Mithra was such that his identification with the Third Messenger led to cultic emphasis on the Mithraic traits in the Manichaean God."

Unrelated to these Mihrs are Parthian and Sogdian Mytr or Mytrg. Although sharing linguistic roots with the name Mithra, Werner Sundermann established that those names denote Manicheanism’s equivalent of Maitreya.

In literature
According to Boyce, the earliest literary references to the mysteries are by the Latin poet Statius, about 80 CE, and Plutarch (c. 100 CE).

title: Mithra


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Topic ban
As you were warned of discretionary sanctions here and almost immediately after made edits that triggered an AN report here I am imposing a temporary 6-month topic ban on all articles and pages related to Hilary Clinton, broadly construed. Past unacceptable editing includes, , , , and the edits on Clinton Body Count.

You should read Banning_policy so you know what this entails. Basically, do not post to any page related to Hilary Clinton and do not mention or refer to Hilary Clinton anywhere. This ban can be appealed at the Administrators' Noticeboard, and will be logged at Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/Log. --Neil N  talk to me 04:50, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

If it's any consolation...
I wasn't involved in your RFA; looking at your contributions, a ten year absence from Wikipedia and then only a year of being back, I can certainly understand why most people believed you didn't have snowball's chance in hell of passing an RFA. However you were right in questioning Floquenbeam's civility. Floquenbeam is a terrible administrator. Admins should be exemplars of civility, should hold themselves to an even higher standard than the average Wikipedian is expected to maintain, should be impassive and diplomatic, even when/especially when dealing with difficult people or intervening in heated disputes, but Floquenbeam regularly injects snark, sarcasm, and thinly veiled insults even into things like his closures of dispute resolution discussions. When even politely asked to consider changing his comments to something more neutral, he defensively lashes back with more insults. He lacks the temperament and self-control required to be an admin and should have been desysopped long ago. So no, it wasn't just you. Whether or not your RFA was clumsy or premature, your request to Floquenbeam was politely worded, and his response was unnecessarily and inappropriately obnoxious, especially for an admin. Just remember that if you ever pass an RFA, strive to maintain a polite, professional tone; be a good admin, not one like Floquenbeam. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would put zero stock in Mmyers1976's opinion of . --Neil N  talk to me 14:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Because this is such a fantastic example of a civil, neutral edit summary coming from an admin: "you are not admin material (that *could* be a compliment, but in this case it isn't". Or this " I'll just block whoever continues this stupidity". Or this "perhaps if you acted like you were an adult..." What does it say in the Civility policy's section on edit summary Dos and Don'ts? "Do: Use neutral language. Don't: Make snide comments." Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Blocked????????
Can someone please help me! Granted, I used sockpuppets over 10 years ago. But I was unblocked afterwards-- personally by Jimbo Wales, after serving my sentence and apologizing. By virtue of the fact I've continued to use the same account for 13+ years, everyone should see my commitment to transparency. If I were using sockpuppets, why would I even come back as JoeM, given the baggage I have to carry from my admittedly provocative behavior during the early days of Wikipedia. Please unblock my account. The reasoning for the block is complete nonsense. JoeM (talk) 19:52, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Please return
Please return Joe. Youbmay have violated rules and not been the best but you were still a fine contributor. And you helped balance out opinions among Wikipedians with a certain opinion. 2600:1:F1A7:FB21:2DB1:634A:3E3A:2B8E (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Clinton body count conspiracy theory for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Clinton body count conspiracy theory is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Clinton body count conspiracy theory until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. p b  p  19:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:JoeM


text:
The Pitts

The Pitts is an American sitcom that aired on Fox between March and April 2003. It is about a family and their bad luck. The show featured absurd, fantastical plots presented within the context of a seemingly normal family sitcom. It was cancelled after two months.

Cast

 * Dylan Baker as Bob Pitt, the father of the family.
 * Kellie Waymire as Liz Pitt, the mother of the family.
 * Lizzy Caplan as Faith Pitt, the oldest child of Bob and Liz.
 * David Henrie as Petey Pitt, the youngest child of Bob and Liz.

Cancellation and failed revival
Fox ordered seven episodes of the series; the network canceled the show after only five episodes aired. The last two episodes that aired on Fox aired on the same night, the first airing at 7:30/6:30 CT and the second airing at its regular timeslot at 9:30/8:30 CT. The final two episodes of the series aired two years later in the U.K.

On October 10, 2007, Fox announced an animated version of the show was in development. Of the main cast, Lizzy Caplan and Dylan Baker signed on to reprise their roles. Kellie Waymire died in 2003 and Allison Janney had been cast in her role. The part of Petey was to be played by Andy Milonakis replacing David Henrie who was already starring in Disney Channel's ''Wizards of Waverly Place.

On July 24, 2008, it was announced that the animated series had been taken out of production after a pilot had failed to impress Fox executives.

title: The Pitts


text:
Talk:Gothic alphabet

Untitled
i trust that you guys have done your research: most lists show the Gothic with the TH as WH & v.v.

script origins explanation
I'd suggest moving the text discussing whether the script came from Greek, Latin or whatever to a separate section towards the end. Most people will want to get a quick overview of what this is about, then see an example, and then get the details. Just an idea.

Suggestion.
I'm having trouble saving the other article right now (/Temp). I'm getting an SQL error. Here's what I want to submit: --Kesuari 14:07, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[It worked today so I've removed the text. --Kesuari 14:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

iuja
the Unicode specs give "iuja" for the z letter, but I was unable to verify this. Rather, the letter seems to have been called ezec. I trust the Patrologia Latina better than Unicode on this, and will therefore change it, but I would like to know where the iuja originated... dab (ᛏ) 12:04, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unicode chart
Can anybody make a Unicode table similar to those found at other alphabet articles? I see the PDF but before I download a Gothic font and copy it does anybody have a font already? (Yes, I have Windows 2000 so I do have Unicode writing capabilities and I do have Arial Unicode MS which doesn't seem to cover Gothic) Wikiacc 21:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fonts?
Has anybody had *any* luck getting any font including the Gothic alphabet to work with Mozilla (Seamonkey, 1.7.11) under Windows XP? I've tried and installed all the fonts linked on got:Wikipedia:Gothic Unicode Fonts, as well as some more mentioned in the gothic-l Yahoo group, but without any luck whatsoever. Internet Explorer and Opera also suffer from the same problems, so I'm pretty sure it's not just Mozilla acting up.

Any help would be very appreciated. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 20:08, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Gothic fonts are in Plane 1 of Unicode, which is not as well supported as the Basic Multi Lingual Plane. It could be that WinXP just doesn't support it, in which case you just might not have any luck. But I don't really know anything about WinXP. —Felix the Cassowary (User talk:Cassowary) 01:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm using Mozilla under Windows XP and I can see the Gothic letters since I downloaded Code2001. I can't get them to work in Microsoft Word (where when I look at "Insert symbol" for Code2001 there don't seem to be any Gothic letters), but it works in Mozilla. --Angr/undefined 10:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Gothic letter in the edit tools box
The Gothic letter ƕ is now available in the edit tools box. Click on the drop-down menu and select "Indo-European"; it's the last one. þ is there too. --Angr ( tɔk ) 09:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment on Futhark removed
I have removed a comment from the section on the letters. After the phrase, "a few letters are innovated to accurately express Gothic phonology", the following words appeared: "(other than the Elder Futhark even featuring letters for the labiovelars)".

I understand from this that the Elder Futhark featured letters for the labiovelars. What I don't understand entirely is how it links with its context, either topically or grammatically. The lack of comma after Futhark gives the impression that the Futhark has LV letters, while Gothic doesn't, whereas the reverse is true. The main puzzle is the use of the words other than. I suspect that the writer is not a native English speaker, and is using other to mean unlike.

I am guessing the writer intended to say, ...a few letters are innovated to express more accurately the Gothic phonology, including special letters for the labiovelars, which are not found in the Elder Futhark.

As I am not sure that this is the writer's intent, I leave it to him/her to make the change. Copey 2 14:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * the writer's intent was, of course, to express the fact that the Gothic alphabet has labiovelars while the Elder Futhark do not: you would have been most welcome to replace the offending 'other than' with 'unlike'. The point is that the Gothic names for LV letters (quaithra, hwair) have no precedent in runic letter names. q ∀ p (ᛎ) 14:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

þ,hw and the Greek alphabet
It's surprising that discussions on the derivation of the Gothic alphabet never seem to take note of the fact that while þ has the alphabetic position and (later Greek) pronunciation of θ (theta), it has the form of ψ (psi); and conversely, hw has the alphabetic position of ψ, but the old uncial form of θ. Has anyone seen any discussion of this? It makes me wonder how Wulfila wrote Greek. Copey 2 15:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Even if it is a bit late, but you can find a mention in "Gotisches Elementarbuch, Wolfgang Binning", page 45. He mentions that the signs are more propably derrived from what you are saying. Zylbath (talk) 17:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

 * yes,The good Bishop spoke & wrote Greek,after all,he did translate from Greek to Gothic.

What ever mystifies me is the transposition of theta & psi,because these sounds have Rune letter equivalents: þ as θ, & hw as ψ, for, if one examine Runes, he will see these letters there, along with R. Wulfilas was not ignorant of Roman letters,& he used them where the Runes resembled them. I do sometimes wonder whether the copyist got them mixed up in the Codex Argentus.AptitudeDesign (talk) 07:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

ligature
how is ƕ not a ligature? it's a straightforward contraction of h+w. dab (ᛏ) 10:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The same way that w is not one (a straightforward contraction of v+v or u+u). Hwair is never used to contract h+w, but only to transcribe a single letter from another alphabet. I cannot find any sources of Hwair being used as a ligature, i.e. outside of Gothic transcriptions. -- Jordi· ✆ 11:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * hwair isn't even used anywhere outside Gothic. Yes it is a "letter" but that doesn't change its status as ligature, and is thus perfectly at home at Ligature_%28typography%29, together with w, I agree. Æ is a ligature, I am sure you'll agree, and still has "letter" status in some languages. "ligature" isn't the opposite of "letter", it's a typographical term. ƕ doesn't contrast with hw in Gothic: it is a ligature typographically, and a digraph orthographically, and represents a phoneme linguistically/semiotically. dab (ᛏ) 12:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that's a useful categorization; Æ is a ligature because in many languages it's a connected form of AE. Hwair, on the other hand, may look like a ligature, but it doesn't connect two different letters.--Prosfilaes 14:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Hwair is not H+W, as it cannot be used as a ligature: no-one would ever write Higƕater. Æ in modern English is a ligature, as it can replace the letter combination ae seemingly at will: mediaeval can be written mediæval etc.. But in Icelandic AE is not a ligature, but a letter. Not that it is authorative in any way, but even the Unicode Consortium does not call Hwair a ligature: neither the lowercase nor the uppercase form has the formal or informal alias LATIN LIGATURE HW. Compare to AE which can be a ligature: it has the name LATIN SMALL LETTER AE (letter, not ligature because of languages like Icelandic) and the formal alias LATIN SMALL LIGATURE AE.
 * Hwair has the same status as w, which nobody calls a ligature even though it clearly is v+v, as it is never used as one. Ergo, Hwair is not a ligature, it just resembles one. -- Jordi· ✆ 14:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason AE is labelled as it is in Unicode is as much due to politics as anything; it was named one, then the other, and they finally choose one (and said that they would never ever change a name again, no matter how wrong or absurd) and put the other as a formal alias, since it was the Unicode 1.0 name.--Prosfilaes 15:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * True (Unicode naming is absured), but this does point out that no-one since Unicode 1.1.0 (June 1993), has ever seen a need for a ligature hw alias, as Hwair is never called a ligature. It is a letter, not a ligature. -- Jordi· ✆  15:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It would make perfect sense to instruct a typesetting engine to render hv as ƕ in a language="got" span, hence, in Gothic transliteration (and nowhere else), ƕ is a ligature of hv. (click here for the long version) dab (ᛏ) 14:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And if you were going to be dealing with ASCII text, it would make perfect sense to instruct a typesetting engine to render th in Middle English as þ. But that doesn't make either of them ligatures, or such behavior the correct behavior when dealing with non-ASCII mangled text. Hwair may have arose as a typographic ligature, but it's not a ligature. Ligatures do contrast with letters; ligatures are typographical features that don't typically appear in handwriting and don't appear at the conceptual level of text, whereas letters do appear in handwriting and at the conceptual level of text. Handwritten Gothic in the Latin script would have hwair, thus it's not a ligature.--Prosfilaes 15:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * (SIGH) The Gothic script doesn't even have H and W. Saying hwair is a ligature of H and W is like saying theta is a ligature of T and H. The Old Macintosh (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The letter Ƕ is just a Latin letter used to transliterate the Gothic 𐍈. The top talks about the Gothic hwair, not the Latin one.
 * ― Greater Intosh  10:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Given the apparent majority view in the discussion above, and my own perception that ƕ cannot possibly be a ligature (i.e. typographic combination) of the letters 𐌷 and 𐌿, nor 𐌷 and 𐍅, I have just removed the phrase "the ligature" describing the letter ƕ. This phrase first appeared in the |Revision as of 14:29, 11 December 2009 by User:Varoon Arya, with no changes since then.

Incidentally, I find that the letter ƕ when rendered in bold appears as ƕ, which does indeed look like a ligature of Latin h and u here on my machine, but this is likely just an artifact of the font Mozilla is using to render this page (probably Skeirs). Meanwhile, Gothic Hwair as a glyph similar to Greek Theta, as shown in the table in the article itself, is in no way a ligature. Cheers, -- Erik Anderson 205.166.76.15 (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

 * This wasn't just pulled out of thin air. Standard reference works such as W. Braune's Gotische Grammatik plainly refer to ƕ as a ligature (Balg, in the introduction to his English edition, does the same). Pullum and Ladusaw (Phonetic Symbol Guide, University of Chicago, 1986, pg. 73) also refer to it specifically as a ligature, as does W. Lehmann (Auwera and König (Eds.) The Germanic Languages, 1994, pg. 21), and about a dozen others - more if you start counting journal articles. What justification is there for changing the article when numerous respected sources can be provided demonstrating the same useage? 84.75.167.144 (talk) 06:46, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * All I can think, not having read the sources you mention, is that there must be some other meaning of the word "ligature" that these folks intend. The Wikipedia article on ligatures agrees with what I recall learning as the meaning of the term.

"In writing and typography, a ligature occurs where two or more graphemes are joined as a single glyph. Ligatures usually replace consecutive characters sharing common components and are part of a more general class of glyphs called 'contextual forms' where the specific shape of a letter depends on context such as surrounding letters or proximity to the end of a line."
 * If we agree on this definition for what a ligature is, then we must agree that the Gothic letter ƕ is not a ligature -- that it is not a combination of two or more graphemes.

 * Or is your argument that the Gothic letter ƕ is in fact a combination of multiple graphemes? If so, which ones?

 * FWIW, Braune's Gotische Grammatik as scanned by Google describes hwair as (search for "hv"):

 * On page 2: Von den 25 zeichen des gotischen alphabets fallen in der transcription zwei weg (hv, kv), da sie nur einfache zeichen für zweifachen laut sind. -- not a ligature.

 * On page 17: Die lautverbindungen kv und hv haben im gotischen alphabet eigene einfache zeichen. -- not a ligature.

 * On page 24: Für hv hat das got. Alphabet ein einheitliches zeichen. -- not a ligature.

 * I suppose Google's OCR might be faulty, but it appears that the book does not include a single instance of the word Ligatur. Neither does the German-language page Gotisches_Alphabet.

 * -- Cheers, Erik Anderson -- 205.166.76.15 (talk) 23:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Quick postscript -- Google's scan of Balg's English-language edition only mentions "ligature" twice, in reference to using the Latin-alphabet ligature of h+v to render Gothic hwair. Pullum and Ladusaw only mention "Gothic" in relation to this and other Latin-alphabet characters used for transliteration.  This makes me wonder if you might be having font display issues?  The character that others and I are describing as not a ligature looks like a circle with a dot in it, and is the 25th letter of the Gothic alphabet.  The character that Balg, Pullum, et al are describing as definitely a ligature looks like a Latin-alphabet h combined with a Latin-alphabet v or u, and is *not* a letter in the Gothic alphabet, though it is indeed a ligature (combination of multiple graphemes).  Perhaps this is the crux of the issue? -- Cheers, Erik Anderson -- 205.166.76.15 (talk) 23:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Usage of Wulfila and Ulfilas
I find it unnecessarily confusing that the names Wulfila and Ulfilas are used to refer to the same person in different portions of the article. An improvement would be to select one of the two to be used throughout the article. The other name could be parenthetically referenced upon the first usage in the article. Any other opinions? Leeannedy (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Go ahead. Any other opinion would be silly.--Niels Ø (noe) (talk) 14:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"in decline by 500"?
What is the basis for this? The Deeds of Naples and Arezzo are dated to the mid 6th century: http://www.gotica.de/urkunden.html As far as I know there is no precise date for the Bible manuscripts (5th-6th c.). With the possible exception of the Godex Gissensis fragment (found in Egypt) they're usually supposed to have been produced in the Ostrogothic kingdom of Italy, which lasted to the middle of the 6th century. The Visigothic kingdom survived to 711 in Spain, and was Arian till 589. Vandal rule in North Africa ended 534-534. Salvian criticised the quality of Bible texts belonging to the Vandals and Goths (De gubernatione Dei, c. 440-450). The Burgundian kingdom fell to the Franks in 534, but had already moved towards Roman Catholicism. Whether the alphabet was in decline in any of these kingdoms before their demise is impossible to say, I would have thought, given the scantness of manuscript evidence. How long the language or the alphabet survived (in Western Europe, Eastern Europe or Africa) after the loss of Gothic etc. political identity is another mystery. The Brunshausen inscription, c. 822, contains a single word of Gothic written in Wulfila's alphabet. The Vienna-Salzburg Codex preserves two versions of the Gothic alphabet, a sample from the gospel of Luke, and pronunciation notes; how the scribe came by this Gothic material in the 9th or 10th c. is unknown. --Dependent Variable.

Examples
I just cleaned up the markup in the Examples section, but I'm a bit puzzled by what "Fennic" is supposed to be. There's no WP page, and the server suggests maybe I meant Finnic, but the Finnic languages are decidedly un-Germanic, so that can't be right. Can anyone else with a clue add the right link / use the right spelling? -- Cheers, Erik Anderson -- 205.166.76.15 (talk) 23:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Lord's Prayer, word-for-word translation
Moved from article, since it's just rife with errors — and why should it be in the alphabet article, anyway?

The following shows the Gothic (English/Old Norse/some Fennic) word for word transliteration:

Atta (father/faðir) unsar (our/várr/okkar), þu (you/þú) in (in) himinam (heavens/himinum), weihnai (hallowed be/veinað/cry out/praise) namo (name/nama) þein (yours/þitt), qimai (come/komi) þiudinassus (Kingdom/þjoð-ness/siunaus?) þeins (yours/þín),

wairþai (become/verði) wilja (will/vili) þeins (yours/þitt), swe (as/svá) in (in/í) himina (heaven/himni) jah (and/ok/ja?) ana (on/á) airþai (earth/jarði).

Hlaif ( bread, loaf/hleifr) unsarana (our) þana (the/þann, inn) sinteinan (daily)

gif (give/gef) uns (us) himma (this) daga (day/dag),

jah (and/ja/ok) aflet (lessen burdens/forgive/aflett) uns (us) þatei (that of an/það af) skulans (owing/skuldans) sijaima (we be/sém),

swaswe (so as/svo sem) jah (and) weis (we) afletam (lessen burdens/forgive/aflettum) þaim (them/þeim) skulam (owing) unsaraim (our/várum/okkurum),

jah (and/ok/ja) ni (no/nei) briggais (bring/bringir) uns (us/oss/okkur) in (in/í) fraistubnjai (temptations/freistingar),

ak (?) lausei (leas/leystu) uns (us/okkur/oss) af (from/af/av) þamma (the/hinum, theim) ubilin (evil/oviljin/juvilin/djävulen/);

[unte (because/only/einungs/) þeina (yours) ist (is) þiudangardi (kingdom/þjóðan garð)

jah (and/ja/ok) mahts (might/maehti) jah (and) wulþus (almighty/valdi/voldug) in (in) aiwins (forever/aevinlega).]

Amen (so let it be). — Eru·tuon 00:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Order
This relates to the order of the gothic characters in the main database on the page.

Would it be prudent to order the characters as close as possible to the anglish 'alphabet song' or is the current order relative to the actual gothic order of the characters?

I think presenting the characters in the song order would make the graph itself easier to understand to a broader audience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.85.222 (talk) 00:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

raida vs. kusma
are these letters really this similar? even in written texts?

∈Sensorsweep (talk) 01:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I have seen of the Codex Argenteus (scanned pages at Uppsala), the letters are easily confused but the strokes are not "hooked". The key diffference is that the vertical beginning stroke of the "R" goes down below the line while for "K" it does not. --2604:3D08:8E80:7800:1409:D3D:B6CB:7186 (talk) 18:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

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Sigma vs Latin S
How many cases are there of writings in Gothic where the letter "S" was replaced by a Greek sigma? I realize that the Codex Argenteus is the best surviving example of Gothic and has "S" in it, but there are some other codexes that show more Greek influence (albeit with a peculiar italicized system of letters that I don't think I've ever seen in Greek), and the sigma is in those, as I understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D08:8E80:7800:1409:D3D:B6CB:7186 (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Latin "G"?
Below the table it is said that Gothic has two letters that derive from the Latin F and G, while I am not contesting the former I'm definitely hoping to disagree with the latter.

The Gothic for /ɡ/ is "𐌲", which is clearly from Greek, I suppose there was confusion with "𐌾", but that is clearly not a "g" but /j/ and doesn't seem to come from Latin but the Elder Futhark "ᛃ" which is also pronounced /j/. ALBA-CENTAURI (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gothic alphabet


text:
Gigli

Gigli is a 2003 American romantic crime comedy film written, co-produced and directed by Martin Brest and starring Ben Affleck, Jennifer Lopez, Justin Bartha, Al Pacino, Christopher Walken, and Lainie Kazan.

Despite popular media giving attention and interest to the film during production (primarily because stars Affleck and Lopez were romantically involved at the time), Gigli was heavily panned, and, in the years since release, it has been considered one of the worst films of all time. It was also one of the most expensive box-office bombs in history, grossing $7.2 million against a $75.6 million budget. To date, it is the most recent film Brest directed.

Plot
Larry Gigli is a low-ranking Los Angeles mobster who is not nearly as tough as he likes to act. Louis, a higher-ranking member of Gigli's organization, commands him to kidnap the mentally challenged younger brother of a powerful federal prosecutor to use as a bargaining chip to save New York-based mob boss Starkman from prison.

Gigli successfully convinces the young man, Brian, to go off with him by promising to take him "to the Baywatch", apparently a reference to the television show of that name, which seems to be Brian's singular obsession. Louis does not trust Gigli to get the job done right, so he hires a woman calling herself Ricki to take charge.

Gigli is attracted to Ricki, but he resents both Louis' lack of faith in him and having to take orders from a woman. He is also frustrated by Brian's insistence on going to "the Baywatch" and by the fact that Ricki is a lesbian.

Events take a darker turn when Gigli and Ricki receive orders to cut off Brian's thumb, something neither wants to do. At a hospital, Gigli sneaks into the morgue and cuts off a corpse's thumb, which he sends to the prosecutor as Brian's. Gigli and Ricki go back to his apartment, where he confesses his love and they sleep together.

They are summoned to meet with the mob boss. Starkman reveals that he did not approve of the plan to kidnap a federal prosecutor's brother or cut off Brian's thumb. He nevertheless rages at them because it did not match Brian's fingerprint, and therefore not only failed to increase pressure on the prosecutor but even undermined their credibility.

Starkman then kills Louis, in retaliation for the kidnapping and associated scrutiny by law enforcement. He is about to kill Ricki and Gigli, but she talks him out of it. She points out that only they know where Brian is and only they can silence and prevent him from revealing Starkman's organization's involvement in the kidnapping.

They leave Starkman's, decide to leave the mob, and discuss taking Brian back to where they found him. On the way, they discover a Baywatch-like music video filming on the beach. Brian begs to be let off there and, finally, they consent.

Gigli convinces Ricki to take his car to escape to parts unknown, but at the last minute, she returns to pick him up, and they leave town together.

Cast

 * Ben Affleck as Larry Gigli
 * Jennifer Lopez as Ricki/Rochelle
 * Justin Bartha as Brian
 * Lainie Kazan as Mrs. Gigli
 * Al Pacino as Starkman
 * Lenny Venito as Louis
 * Missy Crider as Robin
 * Christopher Walken as Stanley Jacobellis
 * Terrence Camilleri as Man in Dryer

Production
Halle Berry was invited as the female lead before dropping due to scheduling conflicts with X2, being replaced with Jennifer Lopez, who signed in late 2001 for a reported $12 million. Adam Brody auditioned for the role of Brian.

Gigli began shooting in Los Angeles on December 10, 2001. The original ending featured Gigli being killed, but after negative response to a test screening, the ending was re-shot and re-edited. In a 2023 interview in Variety, Martin Brest said: "'extensive disagreements between the studio and myself got to the point where post-production was shut down for eight months while we battled it out. In the end I was left with two choices: quit or be complicit in the mangling of the movie. To my eternal regret I didn't quit, so I bear responsibility for a ghastly cadaver of a movie. Once key scenes were cut it became like a joke with its punchline removed, endless contortions could never create the illusion that what remained was intended. Extensive reshooting and re-editing turned characters, scenes, story and tone upside down in the futile attempt to make the increasing mess resemble a movie. For the first time in my career I had become a true collaborator — not in the benign, creative sense, but rather that of one who, in violation of their true allegiances, cooperates with occupying forces. And for that kind of compromise, self-castigations far exceed any possible public ones.'"

Critical reception
Gigli was panned by critics. On Rotten Tomatoes, the film has an approval rating of 6% based on 186 reviews with an average rating of 3.10/10. The site's critical consensus reads, "Bizarre and clumsily plotted, Gigli is a mess. As for its stars, Affleck and Lopez lack chemistry." On Metacritic, the film has a score of 18 out of 100 based on 37 critics, indicating "overwhelming dislike". Audiences polled by CinemaScore gave the film an average grade of "D−" on an A+ to F scale.

On Ebert and Roeper, critics Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper both gave the film thumbs down, although Ebert showed some sympathy towards the film, stating it had "clever dialogue", but was "...too disorganized for me to recommend it". Roeper called the film "a disaster" and "one of the worst movies I've ever seen". He then included Gigli on his 100 worst films of the decade at #7.

Ebert and James Berardinelli were two of the very few major critics to not write it off completely. Ebert gave the film two and a half stars out of four and made the balanced observation that "the movie tries to do something different, thoughtful, and a little daring with their relationship, and although it doesn’t quite work, maybe the movie is worth seeing for some scenes that are really very good." He also considered Lopez and Affleck "appealing in their performances" and that they "have chemistry" together. Berardinelli gave it two stars, saying, "This isn't a good film, but, when set alongside the likes of Dumb and Dumberer and Legally Blonde 2, Jen & Ben offer less pain."

Joel Siegel of Good Morning America awarded the film with a "D" rating and stated in his review "To qualify as a historic failure, a film needs a measure of pretension and all Gigli ever wanted to be was a romantic comedy. What it is is a dreadful romantic comedy."

Entertainment Weekly's Owen Gleiberman gave the film a "C+", stating "A watchable bad movie, but it's far from your typical cookie-cutter blockbuster. There are no shoot-outs or car chases, and there isn't much romantic suspense, either."

One of the few positive reviews came from Amy Dawes of Variety, who wrote that the story was ludicrous and that the film would tank, but that on balance she found it a fun film with several good performances.

In recent years, the movie has increasingly been re-evaluated by critics. For example, Jason Bailey, in a piece for the Guardian, notes that "in the 21st century, the mixed review has become an endangered species – most readers look for the Rotten Tomatoes rating and pull-quote, and little beyond that. Everything is the absolute holy-shit best or the godawful worst of all time, and there's nothing in between. Gigli is in between."

Box office
Gigli grossed $3,753,518 in its opening weekend from 2,215 theaters averaging $1,694 per theater and ranking #8 at the box office. The negative response led the studio to pull the advertisement for the film and replace them with another of their releases, Bad Boys II. The film set a record to date (2003) for the biggest second-weekend drop in box office gross of any film in wide release since that statistic was kept; it dropped by 81.9% in its second weekend compared to its first, grossing $678,640. By its third weekend in release, only 73 US theaters were showing it, a 97% drop from its first weekend. The film ultimately earned $6,087,542 domestically and $1,178,667 internationally for a total of $7,266,209 on a $75.6 million production budget.

After its third week it was withdrawn, one of the shortest circulation times for a big-budget film. In the United Kingdom, the film was dropped by virtually every cinema after critics panned it. Gigli was stated to be a major part in Sony Pictures losing $42 million in the quarter of its release, even though the studio had the successful Bad Boys II and S.W.A.T. during the same period. The worldwide gross of $7.7 million against a $75.6 million budget made Gigli one of the most expensive box office flops of all time.

Legacy
Its title was named by the Global Language Monitor as one of the top words from Hollywood having an impact on the English language in 2003. Late-night talk show hosts in particular lampooned the film in their monologues; Conan O'Brien said "The Mets are doing so badly that they will be renamed 'The New York Gigli'."

Yahoo! Movies rates Gigli number one on their Bottom Rated Movies of All Time, with a critics' rating of D−. The Onion, a satirical newspaper, ran an article about the film, titled "Gigli focus groups demand new ending in which Affleck and Lopez die."

"Weird Al" Yankovic's song "Virus Alert" from the album Straight Outta Lynwood includes the line "make your TV record Gigli" as one of the negative effects of the titular virus.

In May 2015, The Hollywood Reporter named Gigli #25 on its list of "50 Worst Movie Titles of All Time".

In a 2013 episode of Saturday Night Live, Fred Armisen plays Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad performing as Affleck in a movie parodying the creation of Argo while Affleck (who directed, produced, and starred in Argo) is a member of the filming crew. When asked why he would appear in this film, he says, "I wanted to make a film worse than Gigli." Affleck said that the negative reception of Gigli led to his directing career.

title: Gigli


text:
Celempungan

Celempungan is a Sundanese musical genre that includes several musical instruments such as kacapi, kendang, goong/gong, and suling or rebab (optional), and Juru Kawih (singer). Kendang, the drum, controls the tempo of the ensemble and reinforces the meter.

Celempungan is named for the celempung, a bamboo tube zither from West Java. Celempungan ensembles had their golden era from 1935 to 1945. In modern celempungan ensembles, the celempung may be replaced by the siter, kacapi, and kendang. Troupes' musical repertoires include gamelan salendro kliningan. Dutch ethnomusicologist Jaap Kunst described celempungan in his 1973 book Music in Java: ""The chelempung-orchestra (ill. 131) is fortunate in being widely-spread. The name is derived from the idiochord bamboo instruments, which are found in it in two different functions, i.e., as kendang and as ketuk. The other instruments in this combination—another essential element of which seems to be a female voice—are: rebab, suling, goong awi, and—not always, however—a kachapi.""

title: Celempungan