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User talk:Cimon Avaro/archive 4

For older talk: CLICK HERE

Finnjävel
I would suggest that some Swedes use -djävul or -jävel or some mixture thereof on virtually any nomen, as in: Inte fan träffade han spikjäveln, inte.

Tyskjävel, Ryssjävel, och Finnjävel are probably quite similar terms, but I refuse to believe that the suffix carries much meaning.

On the other hand, there are (in Malmö at least), a set of racist terms for people originating in Southern Europe and further away, which are used rather commonly and definitely are associated with somewhat hostile feelings. --Ruhrjung 11:47, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

your wording on Truth
...I forget about the wording I didn't understand. ;-))

Regarding the severness, I stand by my assessment in Talk:Continuation War stressing the refusal to communicate on contested statements (who attacked whom in 1939 and 1941, an ally or not an ally, a war or a conflict, fascist or democratic... - everything as quoted from East-German schoolbooks). --Ruhrjung 11:47, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * I wish to point out in the most strenous terms that I do not disagree with your evaluation on Talk:Continuation War. I only disagree with the degree of influence everything you said there, and the other talkpages referenced therein, should have on the sysop nomination process. I (still) don't think they are strong enough indications to deny him sysophood. Maybe they are enough to make explicit that he might not be the best of the sysops we have, though maybe he might have potential of growth, I don't honestly know.

 * But to drive my point to the ground, I personnally don't want a group of sysops who consist only of the "best of us", not just because I might fail the grade ;) but also because it promotes insincerity, fakeness and politicking. If I were Jimbo Wales, I would decree that the only standard for gaining sysophood was a sincere wish to preserve and improve Wikipedia, personality or tenor of conduct being only an extremely rare reason to deny it. The only issue I might take out of your disapproval of Graculus' actions is the accusation of deviousness, or dishonesty. If I believed they were real characteristics, I probably would have supported your and Tuomas' drive to not admit him as a sysop. But as I don't, I didn't. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 12:20, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)

- I see that you rewrote large portions of the opening paragraphs of Cold War. Good job. However, since I wrote large portions of that article, I feel compelled to plea not guilty. Those sections weren't mine, but I guess I should have copyedited them long ago when I added a great deal of text. 172 18:27, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Cimon, the Talk:List of heterosexuals/deletion page was created exclusively to discuss with the deletion debate, nothing else. Wiki policy is to delete talk pages alongside main pages when the main page is deleted. The deletion subpage is simply a record of what was discussed in the delete debate, nothing more, and to use it to continue the debate is a fundamental breach of wiki policy on deletion. If the issue is to be debated more, it should be debated elsewhere, but the deletion subpage was simply a time-specific one issue page. The time specified in its creation has lapsed and the issue which it was discussing was in accordance with wiki policy terminated with the deletion.

I originally deleted the page, having been unclear as to how it should be preserved. Eloquence undeleted it before I had a chance to do so, having decided that it would best be archived on the VfD page. It is however an archive of a specific discussion, not a live page. If you wish to discuss the issue further, it should be done on a different page, not an archive, which as with archives generally is simply a record of past discussions, not live ones, which are carried out on live pages or meta pages, not archives. FearÉIREANN 14:27, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)

 * Hi, Jtdirl. Welcome to my talkpage.

 * The purpose a talkpage is created for, and the purposes it may serve, are not just two different things, but several.
 * Wiki policy may be to delete talk pages alongside main pages when the main page is deleted. There is no shortage of exceptions however, and the deletion page is not in any shape or form stricktly (for the purposes of any purported policy) analogous to a garden variety talkpage. Since the creation of the page itself was contrary to accepted practises (use VfD), justification (or otherwise) for its retention should also be argued ab novo.
 * I agree that the page should not be used to argue the case of the specific page, but merely as a handy reference to a case that was. There is much to be learned from the debate, for all its acrimoniousness. If someone tries to use it to continue debating the decided issue, it should be protected to disallow that. I wouldn't protest a move to meta either. As long as it remains where it can be read and referred to, when some new user asks: "why don't we have a page on heterosexuals too?"

 * Finally. The early days of the page, I thought the page would not survive long. I think it was a good thing that some people who cared more about the thing than I, took it upon themselves to vote against its retention, and therefore caused it to be deleted. In my opinion it was a good thing that they did so, because they felt that way. I believe Wikipedia functions best when people act on their beliefs. I believed I was doing the right thing when I restored the deletion page, since it was not a regular talkpage, but a historic occurence which contravened usual practises, and thus should remain on the record. Either it is a precedent for later analogous situations or a warning sign against what should not be allowed to happen again. Such discussion should definitely not be held on the page itself, but it should certainly be available to be referred to within such discussions. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 17:45, Sep 9, 2003 (EDT)

Hello Mr. Avaro. May I have your email address? I've just put together a register of Wikipedia developers, including phone numbers, email addresses, etc., which Wikipedians can use to contact developers in case of server failure. I can't distribute it publicly, so I really need an email address or some other private method of communication. You had the dubious honour of contributing to Wikipedia during every hour of the day over the week when I collected data, and hence I thought you'd be a good person to have on the team, along with about 20 others. -- Tim Starling 03:51, Sep 13, 2003 (UTC)

So it was you that broke it! :) Angela 16:22, Sep 13, 2003 (UTC)

Hang on, I'm just looking up some things... -- Tim Starling 13:58, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

You should probably inform Jimbo by email. I know nothing about Finnish law, but it's probably best to let him know if there's even the slightest chance of legal exposure. I think it's probably pretty unlikely that this guy will take it further, but we shouldn't take chances. Other than that, I think the action you've taken was quite reasonable and I can't think of anything else you can do other than wait for a reaction to your email.

fi.wikipedia.org is running UseMod. I was just looking up some documentation -- I wasn't sure how one goes about deleting things in UseMod. It looks like there aren't any administrator accounts as such, just a global administrator password, and everyone who knows it can delete pages. I now know it. Do you want me to delete the page? -- Tim Starling 14:15, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

Done. I hope I don't get into trouble for it. Make sure you tell Jimbo what we just did. Anyway, it's my bedtime now, good night. -- Tim Starling 14:39, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

Bots
You know, I can automatically update all the articles that my bot created, so for a wording change like that the one about immigrants, it might be easier to let me do it (unless you don't mind editing all those articles). I was unsure about the wording of new immigrants, and I think that yours is an improvement, but "settlers" is a loaded word in the context of Israeli politics, so maybe something better could still be found.

As for "no significant Arab/Jewish Population", I don't have any more detailed information than that. The data I'm working from has a dash in the cell in question, basically saying "not available". I would say "none", except that in a number of cases the rest of the population adds up to 99.x%, so it's not clear that it's exactly none. -- AdamRaizen 16:13, 2003 Sep 21 (UTC)

When I first saw some user 's page rant about quiting this project I could not understand at all why, now I do. For a start it is a bit unfair to propose a vote for deletion if you are a Sysop who refuses to accept email. Few Sysops seem to want to accept email i notice. Listen Cimron, the page on Sir T.B.s Library is pefectly valid, i am not going to list all 1500 titles just those which illustrate the breadth and depth and TOLERANCE of Sir T.B.s learning. What is your problem? I thought this page would be of prestige to Wiki 'cos no-one in the past near 300 years has looked at this document in detail. Maybe you could take a page out of Sir T.B.'s wisdom and learn something about how people in the past had a much wider scope of knowledge than today. just 'cos you don't understand or approve of something doesn't mean it might not be of interest to others. perhaps you are attempting to annoy me to make me quit the project. At least have the guts to email me to articulate JUST WHY you want this page deleted.It may be a road you don't want to go down but at least respect other peoples cultural heritage. There are far more irrelevant and obscure pages at wiki than this,. For heavens sake Sir T.b. was one of Europe'e earliest Encyclopaedists. On that account alone he deserves an indepth coverage..Norwikian

Would it be too much to ask you to explain your reversion? LirQ

I should not be required to ask your permission, before editing a page. You reverted my changes, you explain why. Explain why "global wave of neoliberalism" is NPOV and it was wrong of me to put it in quotes. Explain why every single change I made, was so horribly wrong that it had to be reverted.

Surely there was at least "one" change which was worth keeping, and thus, did not require a complete revert. LirQ

If you have a source which states 1968 as the date for privatization's coinage, then change the date to 1968 and cite the source. The current date, being unsourced, is pretty much worthless. LirQ

"Since you are an avowed anti-deletionist..."
 * Yes?

Could you take a look at the current version of Dead letter office (proposal)?
 * Sure.

"I am about ready to go on a last big push to get support for its adoption, or failing that its transfer to meta."
 * What does last ditch mean on WP?

"I cannot see anything I personally can polish further about it (and hence it may need a second view)."
 * My best, will do.

"Since you have criticized the abrupt process we have currently, perhaps you could give useful feedback on what should still be improved about it, how I should approach its promotion and other related matters?"
 * OK.

"That is of course if you don't think it's counterproductive."
 * No. I would simply state that my thinking on it is similar to Martin's -- that there be degrees-- that whatever process it is not reflect a paraniod "lets weed the wiki" type actions-- which are based in a fundamental misunderstanding of wiki.-戴&#30505sv 19:05, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Deletion buffer, User:Stevertigo/DLO. (Grunt. Snort)-戴&#30505sv 21:32, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC) Hi Cimron! What an odd handle you have, could only come from a dream !So what's to be verdict and  outcome of my VfD page? Do you know? Do you still believe it should be deleted? I found a better title and home for it under Library Please don't let my harsh words get to you, like you I believe myself to go an okay person (sometimes), it's just that i hate attacks on cherished projects. It's awfully quiet and lonely out here on the 'wiki without any feedback. Please don't condemn me to silence. Sometimes i feel like Homer Simpson when i upset people. Dohh! ( ever noticed how the baddies on the Simpsons are invariably portrayed as having English accents. Such a parcel full of rogues in a nation, as the song goes). So please take another look at Library of Sir Thomas Browne and tell me if i has a place at the 'wiki. I won't get angry whatever you say, promise.User:Norwikian 08:39 Brit Summer??!! Time

Let's hope Wikipedia doesn't die then or we'll have nowhere to go! Maybe they need a Berlios Status page here. :) --Angela 22:03, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC) --- Have the VfD objections you raised about Lib. of Sir T.B. been placated with development of page? I am still interested to know your REASONS why you proposed to VfD page other than a road not to go down or why. I shall take silence to mean you're vaguely satisfied now. It is great to know of someone who is impervious to  American popular culture and can transcend it's world-wide ubiquity. The Beatles, like the Simpsons seems to be another ( faded) icon of pop culture which arouses strong views from all even today Norwikian 10:22, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Have just seen your encouraging comments on page.Queries answered Thanks Cimron Norwikian 11:19, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi Cimron, i've just taken a look at the 'Hell on Earth' page which is VfD. Now will you too VfD this or accept it as just a typical example of American pop culture and is therefore okay. Do many pages pop up like this 'cos it looks like the wiki has a BIG problem if so?Norwikian 19:49, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * the text below was cross-posted to User talk:Netesq, User talk:Jiang, User talk:Jtdirl, and User talk:Cimon avaro

Still writing about me? Why? Since you and your friends can't stop obsessing about me, I may be forced to come back to Wikipedia. Sadly, however, you and your friends still are allowing a proven pro-Nazi viewpoint to be pushed on Wikipedia from Stevertigo and his friend Martin; the fact that you don't have a problem with this is shocking, and tells me things about you I rather would not have learned. User:RK 00:32, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)~

Also, I see that you and others are still slandering me non-stop. Loo, tw o people kept harassing me. I excercised my right to remove their comments from my Talk User page. All Wikipedia users have always had that right. Yet then other Wikipedians such as Angela began harassing me; shockingly, they reverted my edits to my own page, and restored the harassment. When I reported this non-stop harassment to the Wiki list, no one helped, and in fact people slandered me. So I had no other options left; I did the same thing to them, yet I was banned and they were not. So this sick situation hasn't changed. I just wonder how much harassment I can put on someone else's page (perhaps yours?) until I see someone (perhaps you?) remove it? Then I can do this again and again until you take action...and then you would be banned? Does this sound reasonable? Frankly, to me this course of action sounds like harassment, and its totally insane. I just don't get why you think it was Ok to do to me, and not to anyone else. That kind of insane double standard is so hateful, that I can only attribute it to malice, and not ignorance. User:RK 00:32, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * No I am not writing about "you". On wikikipedia I most meticulously write only about personas as they manifest on wikipedia. The way someone acts on wikipedia may have some relevance to who they are, but personally I usually don't buy that argument, a rabid right-winger may in actual fact be a cynical communist agent provocateur, and so forth. When I write about some username, it is not about "that person"; it is about that username.

 * Personally, I find it extremely curious that you think that I have friends on wikipedia. I don't. At best I would call some of the users here acquaintances. So far, I can't think of any user here I have said only nice things to/about; so I guess I harrass and slander everybody here.

 * As to obsessing about you, I personally had already swiftly begun to forget that you existed. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 01:26, Oct 8, 2003 (UTC)

I believe that the line you added to the article on Giordano Bruno is in error. I know that regret over the sentence of death has been expressed, but certainly it was carried out, and know of no "overturning" of the verdict of heresy, as in the case of Galileo. I would be delighted to learn otherwise, but have not found any indications that this is the case. Kalki 14:08, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

my apologies. i could swear that when i looked at your posts of 18:04, 11 Oct 2003 and 17:58, 11 Oct 2003, items were deleted...i don't know what my brain was seeing at the time, but i was wrong. please accept my apology. Kingturtle 00:23, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Well, to quote Norwikian: "Worse things happen at sea." Consider your apology accepted.

 * I have misread edits myself, so I know what it feels like from both sides. I personally think people are much too much on the edge here, with the server troubles, wikidowns, slowness, press release delays and many utilities like VFD, Pages needing attention, thins to be moved into wiktionary etc. having a rough patch with the growth of wikipedia.

 * IMO this is purely a crisis that wikipedia is passing through right now, and people are on edge, and liable to make more mistakes than they would make under normal circumstances. This is a general comment, not aimed at you personally.

 * That in fact is part of the reason behind my Cleanup proposal. A informal, anonymous, shoot from the hip page, without personalities, without stress about being right or wrong, needing no rhetorical flourishes to justify opinions etc.

 * (And by the way, Carthage should be destroyed)

 * Respectfully:

 * -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 08:57, Oct 12, 2003 (UTC)

--- No, it wasn't scanned, I wrote it like a good little wikipedian. ping 07:39, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)~

 * Fine then. I apologize for my misinterpretation. What set the alarm bells were the variable numbers of space characters after each sentence. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 11:47, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

Please consider protecting Jesus Christ. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Should go on articles requested, but don't remember the exact phrase...
In brief: anybody who knows the story to the point of titleing it properly, please start an article on the USENET historical event of the one autumn student rush that did not end, because those rushing in were not students any more... I feel we are heading towards an unending slashdot effect. Arhechgm, Was It Ythe "Unending September", "The September That Did Not End", "The September Without End", (August?, different phrasing?), Anywhay thisi is an important subject whe havent kovered. If somevody knobs the corect subject, I weill feeeel free to elaborate on the historical detail... -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 08:46, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * "Eternal September" or "September That Never Ended". See the Jargon File: -- Jake 09:24, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

That's alright, you put a bit of interest into my day :) I think you managed to confuse both Matt and me. It looks like someone's working on Berlios: it used to be timing out, but now it's returning a blank page. So it probably wasn't Erik trying to spite us all ;) By the way, I sent you an email. -- Tim Starling 03:31, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)

Why the pogo stick? dave 03:48, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

System of a Down has a pogostick song. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Keeps both my feet unfirmly off the ground? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 03:54, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)

No problem, and don't worry too much about making links point to bullroarer rather than bull-roarer - both forms of the name are pretty common, I think, and the redirect means everyone ends up in the right place (but of course, if you've got nothing better to do... ;). --Camembert

OK. I will give it some energy with you, now that theres some coordination. What do you mean "went through" --its part of an overall deletion process overhaul. We need to draw people a picture. :) -Id like to see it re-formatted and the olde items removed. Thanks -戴&#30505sv 16:08, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * I think gradual does it best, small steps... Just hints that this or that article might have been rescued just as easily on cleanup. As the cleanup page gets more and more enmeshed with the way Wikipedia operates, further advances will be inevitable, but a too strong push right now, may still be counterproductive in the long run. Not draw people a picture, just some dots with numbers, and let them connect the dots themselves :-D

 * I have already been removing resolved items from the bottom of the list, the unresolved can stay there for a while and then be listed on VFD or pages needing help or whatever. Naturally they shouldn't stay there for ever, just a fairly long time.

 * As to the reformatting, could you provide me with a sample Cleanup entry which has been formatted in a way you would prefer? Or are you talking about a more expansive format change? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 16:34, Oct 23, 2003 (UTC)

There are two of us with similar and confusing names. I'm User:Morven and there's also a User:Morwen. Different people. I believe that I, the former, is who you meant to respond to on Wikipedia talk:Votes for Deletion.

--Morven 19:35, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Indeed. In fact I noticed my mistake immediately as I pressed the "Save page" button. (gr) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 19:43, Oct 23, 2003 (UTC)

Hi there~ Chiang Kai-shek died on April 5, 1975 -- did you mean to add a different one (?) to Recent deaths? Thanks, BCorr ¤ Брайен 05:37, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

One word away from getting it right - it was his widow who died. --Jiang 05:52, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It has to be the 23rd. It's only been the 24th for 2 hours on the east coast. I don't think it's within this time frame. The articles say "thurs".

Reuters: "We were told that Madame Chiang passed away at about 11 something last night," Andrew Hsia, director general of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in New York, told Reuters by telephone. --Jiang 06:19, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

West-Europea
please delete - my misspelling and absolutely no-one will do that error regularly --Ruhrjung 08:23, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi ! How could I make it that people don't block others to limit their input, hein ? you have an answer to that ? And how to make it that a super developer does not take blocking decisions for us, hein ?

(note: above message added by User:Anthere)

 * <>

Absolutely not. No answer whatsoever. The blocking is always done to limit their input. That is, the input of vandals.

What I think you mean is how to make sure that they only block the input of genuine vandals. Am I correct?

 * yes

If that is what you meant with your question, I am sorry, but the answer is still no, I don't have an answer to the problem. Accidents do happen. The best we can do is to communicate clearly when such accidents happen, that it is an accident, and not deliberate. You don't mean that anyone would deliberately block a genuine non-vandal contributor whose input one did not like, do you?

 * I do :-) Not here though :-) but it happened :-)

 * Where? Can you point me to the relevant discussion about the event? What was the reaction of developers and such when that happened? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 08:03, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * That was on the fr wiki. There has been someone called Papotages. He is definitly a difficult user. Definitly. He belongs to a sect, raelien, he participated a lot on our articles on "secte", "raelisme", "aumisme" and "pédophilie" in particular, but others as well. He commonly add quite a lot of biaised information, but very interesting one as well. If you look at the history of secte (he is also 62.167.xx.xx)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secte http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discuter%3ASecte

and mostly its talk page, you may begin to see the problem. He is *very* talkative, and *very* provocative. Definitly difficult to work with. But given that we had at least two very serious anti-sect (cult for you), it was initially more a fight between one pro-secte and two anti-secte. It took us a lot of energy to define what a cult was; Then he wrote about some cults. I think it is awfully interesting that someone part of a cult write about this topic, so I believe the person important. But difficult to deal with. Very quickly (I was on holidays then), he was attacked by several users; the focus left the article, and discussions led to personal attacks exclusively. When I came back, there were two articles on aumisme, one from him, and another stricly defended by a group of users. And I saw little reason not to integrate his stuff in the current article. There were some biased stuff in both, and I could see both could make something decent. Papotages had been ip blocked by Brion upon request per mailing list. I asked Brion to stop that block. But, still, the access to the article was denied, and they all went on personal attacks. Was very stupid and very unproductive. Very bad for spirit. In the end, Papotages reacted to censorship in making a whole bunch of stupid articles. He just blew up. That would have been a reason to temporarily block him.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Aumisme&action=history

Anyway, I tried to shut down the noisiest voices, and spent a whole night integrating the two articles together. I think it basically stable since then.

Papotages wrote some stuff I found very interesting on how NPOV was perceived on fr, and on how censorship is practiced. Very very provocative, but awfully relevant. I thought this would be censored later on, so it was copied to meta. A month ago, someone discovered the text on meta, and immediately started a witch hunt for Papotages to be rejected (it is on the mailing list, and through many private discussions). Just because he had been supposingly writing on meta and because this was hurting sensibilities (these are citations of what many people said about NPOV). He was hardly contributing then on wikipedia itself. Some wanted him banned for this. It was just a mob. In the end, I would say that Papotages is a difficult user, but not one that should be banned, because he can be dealt with and discussed with. Most users do not hold that position and are strongly against him. Some accept he is there (but likely would prefer he is not). What I saw is a biaised and provocative, but enlightened editor, hunt and led to stupid acts by mishandling. Some insist they have been tring to talk to him, but when you look at the discussion, you just do not see them focusing on articles content, but on personal attacks.0

Reaction of developper : there was only one. Brion. He made the good decision ihmo. Aoineko and Yann asked him to make an ip block. He checked the last contributions of Papotages (which were bad) and did. Someone asked him to block the name as well, but he did not. Several then agreed to remove the ip block, as they agreed it would be block other contributors (I was among, but I do not know if my asking would have been sufficient to have the block removed) and he did. I suppose he considers it is our business, and do not try to get involved in it, just do a quick check and what we ask him to. Brion is wonderfully neutral for all this. Always. That is why he can be deeply trusted;

Whichever trust would not be so obvious if the developer had been involved in the battle.

Or do you fear that might happen somewhere, like on one of the smaller wikipedias, where there is less accountability?

 * Yes, again. I was only talking of small wikis. Not here, there are enough people. Some people on fr suggested that sysops should not be accountable, because that might limit their liberty and boldness in blocking vandals. It has also been suggested that sysops should not have the ability of blocking vandals, but only developers should. That is...for us Brion. Or another developer we might elect. That would be putting all power in the hands of one person. I think we are heading to a direction where sysops can only block for say 24 hours, and only a developper can permanently block. I am confused, not sure it is a good idea, a good decision. The positive point is that no sysop has permanent blocking power, the drawback is that we rely a lot on a developper sense of ethic. I do not know whether a discussion between no more than 2/3 people can lead to the best solution. I am just worried. Wondering. Anthère 07:40, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Well, I now have a better understanding of what you meant :-) I don't have a better answer though :-( The stuff about blocking 24 or permanent and such is really beyond my competence. I personally haven't blocked anyone, even as a test, and I would be afraid to do so too. I guess I am just about one of the most timid sysops around. I've only once even protected a page, and then because two schoolgirls were using the article-page as a chatroom. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 08:03, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * LOL. You could have left it for them for a while :-))) I have blocked one user name once a couple of days ago. And protected a handful of pages. Usually, the protection has been lifted less than an hour later. I do not like block because they are done *against* a person, while protection means "everyone just stop now". It does not have the same focus. Well, anyway, it will not really be mine to choose in the end, but I think we will have sysops wars over blocking and unblocking, and I do not like the idea, because it is a person concerned in the end, and this is an violent act toward itself. I hope you won't have the pb too quickly on your small wikipedia one Cimon :-)

 * But it was not a proud moment anyway, because I forgot to unprotect the page later, and someone, I think Tim Starling, had to do it for me, because I had forgotten the whole thing. I think you understand why I would fear blocking someone... I just don't trust myself to remember what I have done and when. I don't want responsibility.

 * Better not to do sysop things then :-) But you still are responsible of everything else you do :-)

 * And about Finnish wikipedia, I am sorry, but the English wikipedia is where I am active, not the Finnish one. Maybe that is a shameful thing, but it is true. I have tried to do things for the Finnish wikipedia, but it just is not any fun. The only thing I read in Finnish are the tabloids and subtitles in French films. I don't have an organic relation with my native language at all, except as a spoken tongue. There, I have probably revealed much too much about myself... -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 10:08, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * You are a finnish prime minister in exil ?

 * Seriously, starting nearly alone a wikipedia is sure no fun. But after a while some people get here. It is better when there are at least 15 people. But not seriously fun until much more.

 * I liked what you wrote on meta. One could feel the blood running in veins :-) good day Cimon

Please clarify. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 22:02, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

IDS not a caucasian?
I always thought he was. What is he, then? 80.255 22:30, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Denying him a place because he's one eighth japanese seems to be splitting hairs somewhat. However, it might be worth defining the level of purity required to qualify as caucasian at the top of the article. Would someone 1/16 japanese qualify, etc.? I'm all for accuracy, but I think this needs to be clarified and defined. 80.255 23:32, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Knock yourself out, but don't ask me to join you. That article is fun to edit, but I am sorry, I won't be taking it seriously. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 23:48, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

 * If it survives VfD then it will have to be taken seriously. If it doesn't, then there isn't any point in bothering. 80.255 23:53, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Wrong. I decide which articles I take seriously. I don't abrogate that right to VFD. I may lament the folly, or exult in the whimsy, as the mood takes me, but take them seriously? Naah. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 00:05, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

- Hello Cimon! Since the dreaded developers did not made a sysop of me :) i have a request for you: can you put 1755 Lisbon earthquake in the historical anniversaries in the Main Page. Its tomorrow, November 1. Cheers, Muriel Gottrop 14:24, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Done. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 14:52, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)

Re Scientific method. This should be the lead article on the subject. Because of that it should give some definition of just what we mean by the term. The only other part that I restored was a summary of the detailed explanation of the steps that are more fully described afterwards. I do agree that it was getting long, and so I was content to leave the rest where you moved it. ☮ Eclecticology 20:43, 2003 Nov 1 (UTC)

Don't apologise for correcting my typos... :) Martin 15:24, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think you're going a bit overboard. According to Alexa, we're about the same size as slashdot. See. -- Tim Starling 23:40, Nov 5, 2003 (UTC)

 * On sober reflection, I concur. Maybe the volunteer fire-department should be demobilised permanently, after the new database monster goes online and we weather the Press Release.

 * Additionally, let's hope there was not an unreasonable inundation of wikipedians rushing to see the /. article:) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 00:23, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

Dear Cimon, i'm glad to see you here. 2 new users are creating pages for friends like Shelby Glover, Cindy Farrar. I warned them but apparently they continue, including their birthdays in the dates. What should we do besides reverting, warning and posting on VfD? Cheers, Muriel Gottrop 17:54, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC) BTW, this page is over 35kb
 * Ok, i should know that :) They are calmer now. Thanks! Muriel Gottrop

Hm, it would be nice to get an admin on meta, so that we can kick him off of there too. I'm not sure who has privs though. - Hephaestos 23:28, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, unfortunately I am not. I asked a long time ago to be, but was never made one. Sorry I can't be of more help. See m:Wikipedia:Administrators. Anthere is going to look into it. Angela 00:23, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks anyway. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 00:27, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

Re: Stephen Emanual Poulos and John Joseph Murray, the consensus on Vfd seemed to be to delete these pages. Why did you remove them with the note "decision was to keep"? Maximus Rex 19:28, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cimon Avaro/archive 4


text:
Old World porcupine

The Old World porcupines, or Hystricidae, are large terrestrial rodents, distinguished by the spiny covering from which they take their name. They range over the south of Europe and the Levant, most of Africa, India, and Southeast Asia as far east as Flores. Although both the Old World and New World porcupine families belong to the infraorder Hystricognathi of the vast order Rodentia, they are quite different and are not particularly closely related.

Characteristics
Old World porcupines are stout, heavily built animals, with blunt, rounded heads, fleshy, mobile snouts, and coats of thick cylindrical or flattened spines, which form the whole covering of their bodies, and are not intermingled with ordinary hairs. The habits of most species are strictly terrestrial. They vary in size from the relatively small long–tailed porcupine with body lengths of 27.9 to 48 cm, and a weight of 1.5 to 2.3 kg, to the much larger crested porcupines, which are 60 to 83 cm long, discounting the tail, and weigh from 13 to 27 kg.

The various species are typically herbivorous, eating fruit, roots, and bulbs. Some species also gnaw on dry bones, perhaps as a source of calcium. Like other rodents, they have powerful gnawing incisors, and no canine teeth. Their dental formula is. The prominent diastema allows the lips to be drawn inwards while gnawing. Similar to other hystricomorphs, their chewing muscles are unique. Through an arm of the masseter muscles, passing through the infraorbital foramen, chewing movements are very efficient.

One or two (or, rarely, three) young are born after a gestation period between 90 and 112 days, depending on the species. Females typically give birth only once a year, in a grass-lined underground chamber within a burrow system. The young are born more or less fully developed, and the spines, which are initially soft, harden within a few hours of birth. Although they begin to take solid food within two weeks, they are not fully weaned until 13 to 19 weeks after birth. The young remain with the colony until they reach sexual maturity at around two years of age, and share the burrow system with their parents and siblings from other litters. Males, in particular, help defend the colony from intruders, although both sexes are aggressive towards unrelated porcupines.

These rodents are also characterized by the imperfectly rooted cheek-teeth, imperfect clavicles or collar-bones, cleft upper lip, rudimentary first front-toes, smooth soles, six teats arranged on the side of the body, and many cranial characters.

Species

Of the three genera, Hystrix is characterized by an inflated skull, in which the nasal cavity is often considerably larger than the brain case, and a short tail, tipped with numerous slender-stalked open quills, which make a rattling noise whenever the animal moves. When threatened, most porcupines will wag their tails, making a louder rattling noise to scare off predators. The African brush-tailed porcupine (A. africanus) will simultaneously raise sharp quills, 40 cm (16 inches) in length, on its back and sides.

The crested porcupine (Hystrix cristata), a typical representative of the Old World porcupines, occurs throughout the south of Europe and North and West Africa. It is replaced in southern and central Africa by the Cape porcupine, H. africaeaustralis, and in India by the Malayan porcupine (H. brachyura) and Indian (crested) porcupine (H. indica). The latter also lives throughout the Middle East.

Besides these large-crested species, several smaller species without crests occur in northeast India, and the Malay region from Nepal to Borneo.

The genus Atherurus includes the brush-tailed porcupines which are much smaller animals, with long tails tipped with bundles of flattened spines. One species is found in the Malay region and one in Central and West Africa. The latter species, the African brush-tailed porcupine, is often hunted for its meat.

Trichys, the last genus, contains one species, the long-tailed porcupine (T. fasciculata) of Borneo. This species is externally very similar to Atherurus, but differs from the members of that genus in many cranial characteristics.

Fossil species are also known from Africa and Eurasia, with one of the oldest being Sivacanthion from the Miocene of present-day Pakistan. However, it was probably not a direct ancestor of modern porcupines.

Species list
The extant species and fossil genera are:
 * Family Hystricidae
 * Hystrix
 * Subgenus Acanthion
 * Malayan porcupine (H. brachyura)
 * Sunda porcupine (H. javanica)
 * Subgenus Hystrix
 * Cape porcupine (H. africaeaustralis)
 * Crested porcupine (H. cristata)
 * Indian porcupine (H. indica)
 * Subgenus Thecurus
 * Thick-spined porcupine (H. crassispinis)
 * Philippine porcupine (H. pumila)
 * Sumatran porcupine (H. sumatrae)
 * †Hystrix arayanensis
 * †Hystrix depereti
 * †Hystrix paukensis
 * †Hystrix primigenia
 * †Hystrix refossa
 * †Miohystrix
 * †Xenohystrix
 * †Sivacanthion
 * Atherurus
 * African brush-tailed porcupine (A. africanus)
 * Asiatic brush-tailed porcupine (A. macrourus)
 * Trichys
 * Long-tailed porcupine (T. fasciculata)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Old World porcupine


text:
User:Belle-isle

Belle-Isle-en-Mer (French for Beautiful Island at Sea) is one of my favorite places: a wonderful island off the coast of Brittany, France.

To know more about Belle-Isle: www.belle-ile.com

My online resume: www.linkedin.com/in/belleisle

My homepage: web.belle-isle.eu

My online travel, sailing and outdoors photo gallery: photos.belle-isle.eu

My online photos for sale: us.fotolia.com/p/200392089

My French-language Wikipedia user page:

title: User:Belle-isle


text:
The Sons of Hercules

The Sons of Hercules is a syndicated Embassy Pictures television show that aired in the United States in the 1960s. The series repackaged 13 Italian sword-and-sandal films by giving them a standardized theme song for the opening and closing titles, as well as a standard introductory narration attempting to relate the lead character in each film to the Greek demigod Hercules. These films however were not all originally made as "Hercules" films in Italy. Although two of them did originally feature Hercules (and not his sons), four of the films were originally Maciste movies in Italy, and the others were just isolated gladiator or mythological hero movies not released theatrically in the US.

Films in the series
There were 13 films in the Sons of Hercules syndication package. The first title listed for each film was its American television title, followed by the translated original Italian title in parentheses: (Note* - The films were also offered in a 26 one-hour episodes format package, breaking each film into two parts, which allowed them to be shown in weekly one-hour time slots as a TV series, also under the "Sons of Hercules" format.)

 * Mole Men vs the Son of Hercules (Maciste, the Strongest Man in the World) 1961, starring Mark Forest
 * Triumph of the Son of Hercules (The Triumph of Maciste) 1961, starring Kirk Morris
 * Fire Monsters Against the Son of Hercules (Maciste vs the Monsters) 1962, starring Reg Lewis
 * Venus Against the Son of Hercules (Mars, God Of War) 1962, starring Roger Browne
 * Ulysses Against the Son of Hercules (Ulysses against Hercules) 1962, starring Mike Lane
 * Medusa Against the Son of Hercules (Perseus the Invincible) 1962, starring Richard Harrison
 * Son of Hercules in the Land of Fire (Ursus In The Land Of Fire) 1963, starring Ed Fury
 * Tyrant of Lydia Against The Son of Hercules (Goliath and the Rebel Slave) 1963, starring Gordon Scott
 * Messalina Against the Son of Hercules (The Last Gladiator) 1963, starring Richard Harrison
 * The Beast of Babylon Against the Son of Hercules (Hero Of Babylon) 1963, a.k.a. Goliath, King of the Slaves, starring Gordon Scott
 * Terror of Rome Against the Son of Hercules (Maciste, Gladiator of Sparta) 1964, starring Mark Forest
 * Son of Hercules in the Land of Darkness (Hercules the Invincible) 1964, starring Dan Vadis
 * Devil of the Desert Against the Son of Hercules (Anthar the Invincible) 1964, (a.k.a. The Slave Merchants, a.k.a. Soraya, Queen of the Desert) starring Kirk Morris, directed by Antonio Margheriti

title: The Sons of Hercules


text:
Shufflepuck Café

Shufflepuck Café is an air hockey video game developed by Christopher Gross, Gene Portwood and Lauren Elliott for Broderbund (not a table shuffleboard video game, as the name would suggest—though that was the intention when the name was first coined by Christopher Gross). Originally developed for the Macintosh, it was later adapted by Broderbund for the Amiga, Atari ST, Amstrad CPC, Nintendo Entertainment System, X68000, PC-98, and MS-DOS.

Gameplay
There are two game modes. The player can compete in a tournament, playing against opponents who visit the Café, or can practice against each opponent to find out their weakness in a single-player match.

The game is controlled via the computer's mouse. The bat on the playing field bounces a hockey puck between the player and the opponent. When one of the players manages to knock the hockey puck past the opponent's bat, the player scores. The first player to score a set number of points (usually 15) wins the match.

Shufflepuck Café includes nine opponents:
 * Skip Feeney: A short male human in his early 20s, wearing glasses. Has just started in shufflepuck and thus is very nervous and slow to react, making him easy to beat.
 * Visine Orb: A green-coloured alien with huge eyes, who is only about 1.5 metres tall and can barely see over his end of the table. He jitters his paddle all over his end of the table, so that his serves often bounce back and forth on their way to the player.
 * Vinnie the Dweeb: A veteran shufflepuck player who keeps his calm and is not easily surprised. While not particularly strong, his playing style is consistent and is a slight step up in difficulty from the two previous opponents.
 * Lexan Smythe-Worthington: A lizard-like alien, a filthy rich playboy who gets 30,000 credits per year to keep away from his home world. He begins playing fiercely and hard to beat, but as play progresses, he sips his champagne, making him inebriated and less focused on the game, thus easier to beat. When defeated, he hiccups and passes out.
 * The General (also known as Eneg Doowtrop - "Gene Portwood" spelled backwards): A pig-like alien who pretends to be a military general, although he really is just a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast. Recently divorced, he is addicted to shufflepuck, which he plays with fierceness and devotion.
 * Nerual Ttoille ("Lauren Elliott" spelled backwards): A non-corporeal alien. Mimics the player's own shot power and angle. He occasionally opens his robe to expose a one-eyed alien at chest level, who either smirks or snarls at the player depending on whether he has just won or lost a point.
 * Princess Bejin: A woman with supernatural powers. When it is her turn to serve the puck, she uses telekinesis to float it out to the center of the table and drift it to one side before sending it toward the player. One of two different sound effects accompanies each serve, indicating whether the puck will move in the same or opposite direction. When defeated, she reveals a little bit of her cleavage.
 * Biff Raunch: The reigning champion. A tough, street-hardened biker dude who plays a mean game. He has no weaknesses and only the best players will be able to beat him.
 * DC3: A robot waiter. DC3 serves as a training partner, who can be customised to be as easy or as difficult as the player wishes. He does not play in the main championship.

In some versions, during gameplay there is a cheat option, which gives the player the option of winning or losing the game, winning or losing the tournament or gaining or losing five points.

Subsequent releases include Shufflepuck Revolution (an OS X version, now discontinued) and Shufflepuck (from the same developer).

Plot
There is a general storyline behind the Amiga and NES versions of the game in which the player is an inter-galactic salesman whose spaceship has broken down. He needs to find a telephone to call the breakdown service and get the spaceship fixed. Shufflepuck Café is the nearest place for miles, so he goes in to use their telephone. The main eight Shufflepuck players are standing in his way and will not let him get to the phone until he has beaten them all. Once all are defeated, the player gets in his spaceship and flies off into the distance.

Reception
The game was reviewed in 1989 in Dragon #142 by Hartley, Patricia, and Kirk Lesser in "The Role of Computers" column. The reviewers gave the game 4$1/2$ out of 5 stars. On release, Famitsu magazine scored the Famicom version of the game a 23 out of 40. A retrospective review for Retrogamer from 2008 said the game was a "forgotten gem" although unfortunately lacking a 2 player mode.

Reviews

 * Zero (Nov, 1989)
 * Amiga Power (Oct, 1991)
 * Computer and Video Games (Oct, 1989)
 * Commodore User (Oct, 1989)
 * Amiga Joker (Dec, 1989)
 * ACE (Advanced Computer Entertainment) (Oct, 1989)

title: Shufflepuck Café


text:
User talk:Belle-isle

Hello Belle-isle, welcome to Wikipedia!

There are lots of resources around to help guide you. be sure to check out:

 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

Also check out
 * image use policy before uploading any images

If you need any help try
 * Help
 * Village pump
 * My talk page User_talk:Jimfbleak.

Don't be afraid of making the odd mistake, there are any number of others eagerly waiting for a chance to correct it!

I'm very pleased to have your new information about Mont Blanc, but it needs a little more precision, which i'll try to supply without waiting for you to comment: I don't know how often you check your talk page here.

Please correct my upcoming edit, if i make any mistakes in trying to clarify your contribution. --Jerzy 21:49, 2004 Feb 22 (UTC)

title: User talk:Belle-isle


text:
The Great Giana Sisters

The Great Giana Sisters is a platform game developed by the West German company Time Warp and published by Rainbow Arts in 1987 for various home computers such as the Commodore 64, Amiga and Atari ST. Players control Giana, or her sister Maria in the multiplayer mode, to explore a magical world inside their dreams. The two seek out a giant diamond to awaken from their dream. They traverse side-scrolling stages while avoiding hazards such as monsters and other enemies with the aid of power-ups grant them various abilities such as firing projectiles and making enemies fall asleep.

The game was designed by Armin Gessert and Manfred Trenz. They were tasked with developing the game after Marc Ulrich of Rainbow Arts had seen the popular Nintendo video game Super Mario Bros. (1985) and grew exciting of creating a game that did not have an equivalent on the home computer market. Gessert and Trenz were told to create a game that was obviously recognizable as being like Super Mario Bros. while still being legally distinct. Following its release in West Germany, the game was released in the United Kingdom to praise from publications such as Zzap!64 and Computer and Video Games who praised the game for its many secrets and gameplay despite being indebt to its inspiration.

Following its release in the United Kingdom, the game was almost immediately pulled from shops after Rainbow Arts received a notice from Nintendo. Despite being commercially unavailable, the game grew to become one of the most popular home computer games of its era via pirated and emulated versions of the game. A sequel was made for Commodore 64 titled Hard'n'Heavy which downplayed its Nintendo inspiration while various new Giana Sisters games were released in the early 21st century. The music in the game by Chris Huelsbeck also grew to be popular among video game music fans and has been used in later games and performed by symphony orchestras decades after the games release.

Plot and gameplay
The Great Giana Sisters is set in a dream of a girl named Giana. She dreams of a world of deserted castles filled with monsters and can only awaken when she finds a huge diamond. The game is a platform game where the player controls either Giana in single player mode, or taking-turns between Giana and Maria in two-player mode where players take turns. The player controls either sister via a joystick where they can walk and jump through 33 levels of horizontally scrolling platforms while avoiding holes, and other dangerous objects such as nails and fire. Each player starts with five lives. Each level has a 100 second time limit. If time runs out, the player loses a life.

Power-ups can be collected in the game that grant enhancements to the sisters. These range from projectiles from collecting lightning and strawberry power ups, a clock which makes all enemies fall asleep on the screen, magic bombs that make all enemies on screen vanish, and lollis which give the player an extra life.

Development
In the 1970s and early 1980s, video game clones of popular arcades were rampant, and this growth of clones were followed on home computers. These clones often copied the gameplay and had similar names to their original influences, with titles like Munch Man (1982) or Snapper (1982) which were derivative of Namco's Pac-Man (1980). The trend continued for The Great Giana Sisters created by Manfred Trenz and Armin Gessert. They were assigned to make a game similar to Nintendo's popular Super Mario Bros. (1985) after Marc Ulrich, the CEO of publisher Rainbow Arts, had seen the game. Trenz recalled that after Ulrich saw the game, he grew excited as there was no home computer game like it available on home computers at the time and saw a chance at a successful game with similar gameplay mechanics. During this period in West Germany, the Commodore 64 home computer had been introduced in 1983 and was the quickly became the popular home computer in the country. Trenz initially got into computers through a VIC-20 in 1984 and was so impressed with it that he purchased a Commodore 64 and began developing his own games in BASIC and assembly language. After coming third in a contest 1986 contest for a German magazine called 64'er. A small company Rainbow arts was impressed with his entry and asked him to work on graphics for their games and was asked to join the company on a permanent basis in 1987. His first in-house project was The Great Giana Sisters.

The team who developed the game included Trenz, who created the games visuals and high score programming routine, Gessert who developed the rest of the games code, and Chris Huelsbeck created the games score. Trenz recalled he was not a big fan of the original Nintendo game, seeing the PlayChoice arcade version and Donkey Kong (1981) before, but was more interested in games like Defender (1981). Trenz and Gessert originally received a Nintendo Entertainment System and a copy of Super Mario Bros. and played it intensively to discover the game's secrets. Trenz recalled the difficulty in creating the game, stating that it had to be immediately recognizable as Super Mario Bros., but legally distinct as to not cause any legal issues for Rainbow Arts with Nintendo.

To do so, Trenz removed the mushroom and turtle-like enemies of the original game to include giant ants and other cute monsters. He recollected that "it would be incredibly cheeky to simply copy the enemies as they were in Super Mario Bros., so I decided to invent as many new and funny ones as possible". He opted to create a style that borrowed the visual sense but had its own level design, making them more simple and short than Super Mario Bros., allowing them to make many different levels within their short development time.

Trenz specifically found the Giana sisters character design difficult. He went through several variations of the characters but always found that the characters had "something missing". Unlike Mario who grows in size when getting a mushroom, the Giani sister grew spikey hair when collecting a power-up. Trenz stated that this was a technical thing, as if he created a larger sprite, it would have been too close to Super Mario Bros. Musically, the game is different from Super Mario Bros. It features unique music for the title screen music, and two for the main game: one for overworld stages and one for boss stages.

Release
The Great Giana Sisters was released on May 6, 1987 in Europe. The Great Giana Sisters was released for the home computers including the Commodore 64, Amstrad CPC, Atari ST, Amiga and MSX. A version was announced for the ZX Spectrum but went unreleased.

The British distributor for the game withdrew the game from sale in 1988. Publications such as Your Sinclair suggested in 1988 that Nintendo taken legal action against the distributor while Trenz said in 2008 that he was not sure who or what caused the game to responsible for the game being pulled from shelves, but said "placing the slogan 'The Brothers are History!' on the box certainly couldn't have helped". Huelsbeck said that following the British release of the game, Rainbow Arts received a what he described as a "nasty letter" from Nintendo and that there was no formal legal action, but only a warning to take the game off the market. Darran Jones in Retro Gamer wrote that following the game being pulled from store shelves, it only grew in popularity with Trenz recalling that the game only received a wider audience after it became commercially unavailable.

Trenz was happy with the German box art for the game, he disliked the release cover for the United Kingdom, stating it made the characters look strange, and that the Giana sisters resembled Miss Piggy from The Muppets. The games were generally the same across the Atari ST and Amiga as they were for the Commodore 64, with the Atari ST version lacking a scrolling screen. Darran Jones in Retro Gamer echoed this, lambasting that the Amstrad CPC port of the game had a title screen resembling the UK cover which he described as having "gruesome art".

Reception
Darran Jones of Retro Gamer wrote in his overview of the game that it received a "fair amount of critical acclaim" on its release for the Commodore 64. Reviews from several publications including ACE, Power Play, Zzap!64 and Computer and Video Games all compared the game to Super Mario Bros. (1985). Matt Bielby of Computer and Video Games went as far as to call it "as straight a rip-off as they come" while both the reviewers of Zzap!64 and Power Play stating it was not as strong as Nintendo's game. Rod Lawton of Ace questioned whether players would feel compelled to complete the game, "GBH" of Your Commodore and Zzap!64 found the game very addicting noting the amount of secrets and power-ups as highlights. The review in Your Commodore compared the game to earlier attempts at platforming games on home computers, writing that players no longer need "to make pixel perfect leaps or time every move down to the last split second". A Zzap!64 reviewer went as far as to say it was "the best game of its kind since Bubble Bobble, and there can't be many higher recommendation than that". Reviewers commented on the games music with Lawton calling it appropriately jaunty, while the reviewers of Zzap!64 found it a little twee, but ultimately "excellent".

Crash reviewed the unreleased ZX Spectrum release, praising the variety of the game and echoed comparisons to Super Mario Bros. stating that The Great Giana Sisters could not compare in terms of graphics to Nintendo's game, but that "in terms of gameplay (which is the most important thing after all), those Super Mario Bros have certainly met their match". The reviewers generally praised the game, while finding it also lacking colour and that it ran slower than the Commodore 64 original. "Dunc" of Your Sinclair found the game similar to Wonder Boy declaring it superior to that game due to its addictive gameplay. Tony Dillion of Sinclair User also wrote positively about the game's theme and graphics, but that game performed far too slowly to be playable. The games were generally the same across the Atari ST and Amiga as they were for the Commodore 64, with the Atari ST version lacking a scrolling screen. Jones of Retro Gamer described the version for the Amstrad CPC as a "god-awful conversion" with low-quality graphics and no sound.

From retrospective reviews, Kristan Reed of Eurogamer stated that the game felt like a footnote in gaming history by 2007 and that it was one of the best games ever made for the Commodore 64, saying "to most teenage C64 owners of the late '80s, it was an essential release at the point when the best developers had already started to migrate to the 16-bit systems". In a 2021 overview, Stefano Castelli of IGN called it the best scrolling platform games on the Commodore 64. Despite this, he said it came off as a pale imitation to Super Mario Bros., saying that The Great Giana Sisters was lacking inspired level design in terms of variety, the control lacked the subtleties of Nintendo's game, and that Huelsback music was less inspired than Koji Kondo's score.

Legacy
The Great Giana Sisters received a sequel in 1989 with Hard'n'Heavy for the Commodore 64, Atari ST and Amiga. The characters in the game wore space suits and had an outer-space themed game to keep its themes less obviously connected to Super Mario Bros. By 2008, the rights to the Great Giana Sisters were held by Gessert's Spellbound Entertainment. Further follow-ups to the game followed in the 21st century, such as Giana Sisters DS (2009) and Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams (2012), and Giana Sisters: Dream Runners (2015).

Andreas Lange and Michael Liebe wrote in Video Games Around the World (2015) that along with Trenz's other Rainbow Arts game Turrican (1989), The Great Giana Sisters were both the most popular action games from Germany, with both titles receiving international acclaim. Despite being removed from the market, the game grew in popularity via piracy and emulation. Gessert later reflected on The Great Giana Sisters saying "I think it's a great game, but it never reached the detail and class of Super Mario Bros".

Huelsbeck would go on to compose music for games in Star Wars: Rogue Squadron and R-Type series. Hülsbeck's music has been adapted to symphony orchestra music, such as at the concert titled Symphonic Shades in tribute to Huelsbeck's career. Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams also features Huelsbeck's music which is extended and features new arrangements from the original game's music.

title: The Great Giana Sisters


text:
James Pond: Underwater Agent

James Pond: Underwater Agent is a 1990 platform video game that was developed by British video game developer Millennium Interactive and published by Millennium Interactive and Electronic Arts for the Amiga, Atari ST, Acorn Archimedes, and Sega Genesis. It was the first in the James Pond series of games.

Gameplay

James Pond has to solve puzzles to defeat the enemy and the gameplay revolves around finding objects to perform specific tasks, such as keys to rescue captured lobsters, or sponges to bung up the holes in leaking oil tankers. James must also fire bubbles at his enemies to trap them, before popping them to finish them off.

Plot
A nefarious supervillain named "Doctor Maybe" (a play on Dr. No) has overtaken the ruthless megacorporation Acme Oil Company, and is not only filling the oceans with radiation and toxic waste but even threatening all the world from his underwater lair. The protagonist of the story and player character of the game is an intelligent, mutated anthropomorphic mudskipper who is given the name "James Pond" (after the legendary spy James Bond) and hired by the British Secret Service to protect the seas and take out the bad guys in underwater areas. He is also suave enough to seduce numerous attractive mermaids, some of whom act as double agents as is common with James Bond's love interests. The game spoofs James Bond movies with levels mimicking their titles, with level names like "License to Bubble" (after Licence to Kill), "A View to a Spill" (after A View to a Kill), "Leak and Let Die" (after Live and Let Die) and "From Three Mile Island with Love" (after From Russia with Love).

Reception
James Pond received mixed but mostly positive reviews. VideoGames & Computer Entertainment gave the game seven out of ten, calling it "an entertaining and challenging undersea caper that should please just about anyone". Electronic Gaming Monthly gave it a four, four, three, and six, out of ten, calling it "not exciting or fun", but "a nice kids [sic] game". Mega Action gave James Pond a score of 82% writing: "James Pond does for fish as Sonic does for hedgehogs. It features some really cute baddies, making this game a real joy to play." Console XS gave a review score of 70%, they felt it was not a good conversion from the computer version and wrote that "Everything is far too bland and boring to excite Pond fans." Megatech gave the genesis version an overall score of 77% writing: "A cute and entertaining twelve-level aquatic platform game which provides plenty of fun."

Mean Machines magazine, however, suggested that the Genesis port of the game was "Better than Sonic" on the front page of their then latest issue.

Legacy
James Pond was followed by two sequels: James Pond 2: Codename Robocod and James Pond 3: Operation Starfish. There was also a spin-off sports-themed game The Aquatic Games and a cameo in Rolo to the Rescue. James Pond returned in James Pond in the Deathly Shallows for the iPhone and the iPad on June 30, 2011.

In September 2013, Gameware Europe, who acquired the James Pond license in 2003, launched a Kickstarter for a new game in the series, James Pond: Pond is Back!, featuring the game's original designer, Chris Sorrell. The Kickstarter was canceled on October 7 as the funding target looked unlikely to be achieved.

title: James Pond: Underwater Agent


text:
User:Boots

I am a Snowshoe Siamese. I live in a nice house with other cats and people. I am shy and pleasant, if a bit greedy with other people's food. I watch Buffy and read the Wikipedia. I am not a cat who walks by himself -- except when I do. I do most of my contributing using the computer of a female wikipedian.

Working on:

 * Consistency in portuguese royalty entries (a cat can look at a king ...)
 * Checking in on Martin Luther to make sure he's presented in a way that is less panegyric and more historical.

My family bought a dog. yuck. My female person still lets me use the computer, but she's been very busy teaching and blogging.

title: User:Boots


text:
Talk:Song of the South/Archive 1

High
It maybe an important disney film but it's not top. Andman8 15:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Waiting for the 2006 DVD
This is just my personal opinion, so I kept it off the actual article, but does anyone else feel it's a shame that the movie has been suppressed? Yes, it does have strongly racist tendencies which many find offensive, there's no denying that, but the Uncle Remus stories are a piece of genuine American folklore. It seems wasteful to throw them on the trash heap of history just because they were presented in a framework that was influenced by the prejudices of the time. Here's hoping Disney follows through on the project.

-Kasreyn

I included Roger Ebert's opinion (based on his "Answer Man" column from Feb. 13, 2000), which I feel is a valid one. His concern is that the method of the presentation of the racist tendencies you mention and their intended audience combine to make the film more dangerous than, say, Birth of a Nation, which is intended for adults. Note that in a later column (Sep. 5, 2004), Ebert points out that he is not opposed to screening the film for adult audiences. --unsigned comment by User:TeamLessisMore

The article specifically states that the movie has never been released on home video, and yet I'm pretty sure that when I was young, in the early days of VCRs, we rented Song of the South on video. I should add that I am in the United States, not the UK, where it has been released.(Bigjeremy2k 05:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC))

The lastest news is that it has been cancelled indefinitely. It might get release, but not in our lifetimes. --4.250.63.72 22:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Dammit. :(  -Kasreyn 23:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I bet all the little black children would just love it! Who cares about their feelings, right? Well, maybe they could put a warning sticker on cover for black kids. We need Uncle Remus to remind us of the good ol' days. Yassuh! MrBlondNYC 09:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, dude, seriously, I get an "I'm joking" vibe off this, but still...not cool. The Anti-Gnome 09:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, dude, seriously, you get an "I'm White" vibe off this, but...you would be 100% wrong. MrBlondNYC 11:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Some information I found on a discussion board:  There are two "critical points" about "Song of the South": (1) Many people say that "Song of the South" was set in the time before the civil war which would make Uncle Remus an obedient slave. But there are as many hints that it is set AFTER the civil war like the clothing and that Uncle Remus would be free to go in the end if he wished. So, this point is based on a misunderstanding. (2)The second critical point is the story of the Tar Baby, one of the fables Uncle Remus tells the children. Some black people regarded the Tar Baby story as an offence to their race. What they didn't take into account is that not Walt invented this story but that it is part of the original "Uncle Remus-His Songs and Sayings" written by Joel Chandler Harris. The funny (or sad) thing about this whole controversy is that while some people try to tear the movie into pieces, the book can still be bought everywhere in the United States. Most of all, the Tar Baby story emphasises on the imagination of the trickster, B'rer Rabbit, and nothing else.
 * A few years ago, Disney executives approached some celebrities if they would be ok with making a documentary for "Song of the South's" possible DVD release. A lot of them agreed (like Morgan Freeman and Denzel Washington), but one person (Maya Angelou) disagreed and this was enough for the executives to abandon the plan for a "Song of the South" DVD.

Aw, gee that's too bad. Maybe they can try to re-release Little Black Sambo or Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs. After all, they are cartoons created by classic animators that many grew up watching so therefore they just have to be shown again today regardless of what Black people would think. Right? MrBlondNYC 08:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your strawman argument is a waste of time. No one here is pretending that the movie isn't offensive to some.  Painting anyone who would like this movie as a hateful racist only displays your own ignorance and intolerance for all to see.  How about you take your attitude and go be insulting somewhere else?  Kasreyn 16:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive him, Kay. Anti/Reverse Racists are the worst. So intolerant. Anyone see that Daily Show special? Ace Class Shadow 23:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Reminder: Talk pages are for collaborating on article improvement. Opinions can be expressed on User pages, blogs, letters to editors, pamphlets, flyers, zines, and soapbox rants. Personal attacks are unwelcome anywhere on Wikipedia. --Dystopos 00:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Dystopos. So I'll just say this. Ace Class, you're damn right I'm intolerant. So intolerant of racism that I attack it anywhere I see it like a guard dog. If that makes me a jerk, than I'll be the biggest jerk you ever heard of. Kasreyn, I'm not saying you're racist. I am saying that you are either insensitive, oblivious or selfish. If you know for a fact, that a DVD release of this film would hurt millions of people, especially children, why do you want it released? What about the "some" people the movie would truly hurt? Uncle Remus, like the other characters I mentioned are deeply hurtful and offensive to Black people and anyone else who actually cares about their feelings. So why do you want something to be released that would hurt them so? I don't know if you're a racist, but maybe you just never gave their feelings a thought before. Just something to think about. MrBlondNYC 08:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Mrblond, You could do with a reading of Wikipedia's No Personal Attacks policy. If you have a real point to make, try making it without attacking the character of those who disagree with you.  You don't know anything about Ace Class or I, or what we are like as people.  All you know is some of the things we have said.  That's very scant evidence to be judgmental upon.

 * As for your "points": How would a DVD release of Song of the South hurt someone who does not buy it?  If a person feels that it would be offensive, they can choose not to buy it or view it.  It's the same answer I give anyone in favor of censorship:  change the channel, how hard is that?  There's nothing wrong with Disney withholding the film - self-censorship is their right - but the reasons behind it bug me.

 * By the way, I fail to see how I'm "insensitive, oblivious, or selfish" (which is your nice way of calling me racist anyway). I've already made it quite clear that I'm aware that many people are offended by the movie.  But so what?  I believe offendedness is in the mind of the beholder.  You can always choose to ignore it.  What I have a problem with is people who believe that their offendedness is very important, and that others should not be allowed to have the things they are offended by.  It's the same narrow-minded viewpoint that led people to put Twain's anti-racism novel The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn on banned book lists.  Censorship is always the last resort of a simple mind; in Twain's own words, it is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.  And that goes for any kind of censorship, in my opinion, no matter how offensive the content might be to no matter how large a majority.

 * As to Uncle Remus, prepare for a huge shock: your viewpoint is not the only possible one. My father is a big fan of the movie (not to mention a huge Disney fan in general), and was very disappointed that he wouldn't be able to complete his Disney DVD collection with Song of the South.  He told me what it was like growing up in an all-white town in the 50's.  Uncle Remus was the first black person he ever saw, and he loved him.  He was a friendly, smiling character with a song on his lips and joy in his heart.  True, he was also in a subservient role which some find distasteful.  But my father wasn't old enough to notice that at the time.  All he saw was a black person who was happy and kind and his friend.  That was my father's first impression of black people, thanks to Disney.  And he went on to make it very clear to me, as he was raising me, of how completely unacceptable racism was among civilized people.  Anyway, I'm sure your eyes have glazed over by now, but my point is:  there are always at least two sides to any story, and there were and are many people who do not see Song of the South in the same negative light you do.  Please do not attempt to silence such people with name-calling any more.

 * Sincerely, Kasreyn 03:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Ahem... Talk pages are for collaborating on article improvement. Opinions can be expressed on User pages, blogs, letters to editors, pamphlets, flyers, zines, and soapbox rants. Personal attacks are unwelcome anywhere on Wikipedia. --Dystopos 13:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I've been telling Mrblond all along: personal attacks are unwelcome.  Thanks for your support, Dystopos.  Hopefully now Mrblond will help us improve the article without further attacks.  Kasreyn 21:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

- Didn't think it was worth noting on the page, but this very morning (27/8/06) the film is showing on national TV over here in Britland... BBC 2! I'm taping it, so have no comment on the content as yet... but I was surprised to see it in the schedules! [Dee]

I don't think they will ever come out with a DVD ... although there has been a "fan" creeated dvd that I have seen circulating on the internet ...a simple torrent search finds at least one copy perhaps future orphaned works legislation will apply towards its distribution... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdale (talk • contribs) at 19:03, October 11, 2006

 * New comments at the bottom, and sign them. As a registered user, you should know better. Now, as for your assertion, I think you're misusing the term "orphan works". (a lot of misuse with "orphan" terms, I'm finding.) The term applies to a a work of unknown copyright holder or original. This case is clear. The copyright holder is known and the work is not. (due in large part to lack a of publicity for many years and other forms of suppression.) They don't want to release it and no one can force them, as that would be un[pick your suffix: -fair, constitutional, et cetera]. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 20:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's my wish: the Disney company should released Song of the South on DVD no later than 2006, whether it's improper or not! In fact, they would use subtitles on the DVD that is proper english, AND subtitles that is IMproper english! Just remember, how Martin King said about those dreams of his! --- ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.200.116.74 (talk)

 * He dremt this DVD would be released? And with sub-titles? — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Live action info error
I edited the sentance that previously read "It was one of Disney's earliest attempts to combine live action footage with animation" since Disney had worked with the combination back to the "Alice" series in the 1920s. --Infrogmation 15:38 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Splash Mountain
It's kind of strange that Disney would build that huge attraction "Splash Mountain," but give no context for visitors to enjoy it. That is, it refers to stories from the movie, but the movie itself is not available (and probably never will be). I'm not saying the article is inaccurate, it's just strange that the ride would seemingly promote a property which Disney has no intention of supporting or releasing. I think the only way people can see this movie now is via bootleg tapes or DVDs or from short clips that are show in the Disney stores from time to time. —Frecklefoot 20:26, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * Your question presumes that the film was already out of circulation when the ride opened, but that's not the case. The ride is quite old and has probably been in operation since Disneyland's opening day in the 1950s.  "Song of the South" was very well known at the time and for decades thereafter.

 * I remember seeing the movie when it was re-released in 1972. This is also about the time Disney World opened in Florida, and I'm sure Splash Mountain was one of its original attractions.  Everyone who went on the ride in the early years of the park had had opportunities to see the film -- which was re-released in the U.S. again in 1981 and yet again 1986.  Riders' unfamiliarity with the film is thus a fairly recent development.

Actually, Splash Mountain opened in 1989 in CA and 1991 or 92 in FL. So there is some context lacking. --Velvet elvis81 10:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I second Velvet elvis81's comments. The rides absolutely were not any of Disney's original attractions, they are fairly new.  That being the case, my original question is valid. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

strange
Partly why I changed the reference to the ride to specify the animated characters from the movie. I don't know why they've never figured out another way to frame the Brer Rabbit stuff, they've done it with enough other cartoons. Maybe even without the Remus parts the accents are just too much. Jgm 20:49, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

British wikilink error
Why does the British hyperlink go to the entry on England?

 * Why not? ;-) Sorry, some of us Americans are pretty daft when it comes to European topics.  I changed the link to Great Britain.  Is that better?   — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:36, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * Removed sentence on British TV showings altogether; unsubstantiated? I'm British, 35, and have never seen it on British TV.

 * I have a vague memory of it. Although perhaps that is just the 'Sip a De Do Dah' song on a clip show. It certainly hasn't been on British TV in the last 15 years. Djarra 10:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Zippity Doodah has been shown MANY times on Screen Test. David Farmbrough 18/11/'06

I've seen it on TV before in Ireland. I can't remember if it was on an Irish or British channel though. --Richy 19:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It was on British TV on Sunday (27th Aug) -- Alex  talk here 19:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

References in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
The trivia on "in-joke references" may be a little overstated, given that the Who Framed Roger Rabbit page only identifies one such cameo appearence.

There are quite a few, most of the characters are in the film if you pay attention, nearly all of the characters appear in different scenes that take place in Toon Land. --4.250.63.72 22:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Why No Director Credit?
I noticed that there is no credit for Director anywhere on this page, although IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038969/) mentions Harve Foster and Wilfred Jackson as this film's directors, their names are nowhere to be found on this page. Is there a reason for the absence of this credit? -- Mac4drew 01:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Live action or animated feature?
Song of the South, together with movies like Mary Poppins, Bedknobs and Broomsticks and Pete's Dragon are said to be live-action films that feature Disney animation. While movies like The Three Caballeros are said to be Disney animated movies containing live action. It all depends on how much of the film that is animated. The definition of an animated feature; "An animated feature film is defined as a motion picture of at least 70 minutes in running time and where a significant number of the major characters in the film are animated, and animation figures in no less than 75% of the picture's running time." So how much of this movie contains animated characters? If it should turn out that some of the live action flims containing animation are actually animated features, should thet be considered non-canon animated movies from Disney then? But of course, it all depends on how much of it that is live action and how much is animation.
 * From what I've learned, it was one of the earliest and best examples of mixing live-action footage with animation, giving it a certain historical value. Kasreyn 16:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
Perhaps Italians can be forgiven for the unfortunate choice of names in the title "I Racconti Dello Zio Tom". Uncle Remus, in fact, shares his name with one of the founders of the city of Rome (Romulus and Remus). This isn't surprising given the 19th Century Southern predilection for all things classical. The Italians would understandably want to avoid this confusion in the movie title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.7.169 (talk)

Poster
It says "release in 1986". Shouldn't that be 1946?
 * Right you are. I have changed the article to indicate this.  Thanks, Kasreyn 03:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I just checked the Song of the South fansite, and the poster is actually for the 1986 re-release, not the original theatrical release. (Ibaranoff24 18:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

A few comments
There's some good stuff in the article, but there's room for improvement in many spots. For instance, the plot section has to be expanded and corrected. Also, there should be sections on the production of the film, how people reacted to it when it was originally released, etc. Also, the 1986 reissue poster should be replaced with an original theatrical poster from 1946 (images from the original release can be found on the Song of the South campaign page). With some effort, this could turn into a nice featured article in the future. (Ibaranoff24 18:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

Pop culture references
I seperated the pop culture references from the Trivia section into their own seperate sub-section. (Ibaranoff24 18:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

Surely references to Bre'ers Fox and Bear and Uncle Remus are just references to those characters, not to tihs film's interpretation of them, aren't they? David Farmbrough 18/11/'06
 * You're right. I removed the references. (Ibaranoff24 02:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC))

Controversy
The article spends many words on the film being controversial, yet does not describe the controversy, except that it has something to do with black people. As the film was released in other countries than U.S., it is presumably controversial only in the U.S. Perhaps everyone living there will instantly understand everything about this, but it left me more confused than informed. 130.234.170.84 13:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * There was a whole paragraph that described this. I don't know how/why it was deleted (maybe it was considered POV), but I dug through the archives and re-added it for clarification.  You may want to check fast before someone deletes it again! — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The controversy actually dates back to the film's opening in 1946, when the NAACP publicly criticized it for "the impression it gives of an idyllic master-slave relationship." The organization also acknowledged the film's "remarkable artistic merit" and evidently never asked to have it altered or withdrawn, but Disney was sensitive to this issue and announced in 1970 -- long before there was such a thing as home video -- that it was permanently taking the film out of circulation.  The company obviously relented, as the film was re-released three more times -- most recently for its 40th anniversay in 1986.  Its 50th and 60th anniversaries have gone uncelebrated, at least here in the U.S.  The NAACP does not presently object to the movie, though that may be due in part to the fact that it has not been available domestically for 20 years.

Petition
I propose a petition to get this film released on DVD. If the highly controversial Looney Tunes WWII propaganda can be rerelased, why not Song of the South? Because of this controversy, I've never seen the movie. Plenty of people haven't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

 * That's nice, but Wikipedia is not the place for this. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 20:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * There was a petition going around in 2003. In fact I wrote Disney myself asking for a copy (money no object) and didn't get a response back. I am surprised many of you didn't see it. I watched it on the last day of school when I was in the sixth grade (1985) on VCR. I wasn't happy then when I watched it and I am not happy now that I can't get it. So many will be up in arms if Disney ever re-leased this video. It's plentiful overseas though.
 * Obadiaha 17:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You were upset when you saw it, but now you're upset that you can't get it? Note that any new copies of it now, on DVD or videotape, are bootleg copies. Disney may have released it back in the early days of video, but hasn't made an official release for a long time. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

DVD
This film is available on DVD in the US. I don't know if it's grey market from Asia or what but they are only $15 from an outfit in Oregon so I doubt they are bootleg. It is also legally available on laserdisc and PAL VHS on Ebay every day of the week. To call this film "unreleased" to the US video market when anyone who wants it can readily get it is rather strange. Tommypowell 00:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It is "unreleased" from Disney. Like I said, any copy you get in the US is bootleg. — Frecklefoot | Talk 00:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, at a minimum, the laserdisc and Pal Vhs versions are completely legal. So anyone can buy the Pal version and have it converted (about $25) or played on an all region VCR (which a lot of people do have-they are only $100). It seems strange that this Oregon outfit is bootlegging. They take credit cards and put their address right on their web site. You would think Disney would have them shut down in a New York minute but I will defer to your knowledge on that. Regardless, the fact that this film is on Ebay every day of the week LEGALLY (if only on laserdisc and PAL) make language such as "the Disney corporation has avoided making it available on home video" and "the film's lack of availability on home video in the United States" misleading if not grossly innacurate and needs to be tightened. This is not a "lost" title like London After Midnight. A film which is legally available on a daily basis on Ebay with legal videos stamped "Disneyland Paris", on Laserdisc and (legally or not) on DVD from an Oregon seller for $15 to anyone with the sense to enter "SONG OF THE SOUTH DVD" on a search engine cannot be referred to on Wikipedia using such broad quotations. Tommypowell 02:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Alleged Bootleg
Plus, the website clearly states that they're selling bootlegs! The page is called the "Unofficial-Official Song of the South website"! Plus, one of the bonus features is a Warner Brothers cartoon!
 * First of all the Pal-VHS and Laserdiscs of this film being sold in the US are completely legal. They were pressed by Disney in the 90's.  I bought mine at Disneyland Paris!  Secondly, this film is  being sold as DVD's by an outfit out of Oregon which calls itself the "official" site.  Their DVD has the Disney hologram with art work and DVD extras.  They quite openly advertise their Oregon address.  To date Disney has taken NO action to shut them down.  Disney is a multibilion dollar company.  I personally find it unlikely this company would be so brazen as to try to bootleg Disney from a fixed U.S. address!  If anyone has a link which shows Disney or the government calling these DVD's bootleg please post such a link.  Until then we must assume they are a legitimate pressing, perhaps by a quiet deal Diney has cut with this distributor.  Again, if someone has a link showing their bootleg status-fine.  But simply yelling "their bootleg cause I say so" isn't going to cut it. Here is the site:   If it is bogus Disney can serve them with court papers and post such a press release. Tommypowell 02:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The DVDs are bootlegs. The reason Disney doesn't sue these guys is because if they did, then that would mean that they acknowledge the film, and if they acknowledge the film, then they have to release it, which they don't want to do, because they're still afraid that it might bring down the company, that it's possibly racist, that someone will be offended, despite the fact that they've never given anyone a chance to actually take a look at the film and judge it! (70.147.104.106 10:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC))

 * Unofficial-official. that's cute.

title: Talk:Song of the South/Archive 1