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Talk:Amy Rose/Archive 1

Length
This article is FAR too long, it needs to be cut in half. Theres no need to state shes in a certain game in her description, just put all of that shiznit in the trivia section.

Chasing Sonic
Has she really chased him for "well over a century?"

I changed the first sentence of "Recent appearances" and I think it makes more sense, but I still don't think that's quite the right way to put it. If anyone has a better idea, by all means. Not that you need my permission to edit anything, heehee. ekedolphin 03:57, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

There is a Sonic wiki, and Amy's article was pretty short. O_o

There is absolutley no point in stating that "She is considerd an orphan" simply cause her parents have not been seen. Cause neither has Sonics, Tails, Knuckles, Rouges, Vectors, Charmys, Espios, Bigs, Eggmans or ANYONE elses parents (except Creams). So saying that makes her an orphan would make just about all Sonic characters orphans.

Thanks, Xino for uploading the Promotional Artwork of AMY ROSE from Shadow the Hedgehog, because this article only needed the character's latest appearance in video games at the very beginning. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

Over a decade?
How can Amy have possibly chased Sonic for "well over a decade" if she is 12? Yes, I'm aware she made her first appearance some 12 years ago, but speaking canonically, Amy can't have been BORN that long ago, or at least not old enough to be in love with Sonic! If she had retained her former age of 8 and aged as Sonic apparently has (Yuji Naka says he was 5 in Sonic the Hedgehog and has aged), she would be old enough for the previous statement to be true. But since Sega reduced her age by quite a bit to the current 12 years old, it doesn't make sense to say she's chased Sonic for 12 years.

I'd suggest a rewording, something like:

''For over a decade now, Amy's role within the Sonic franchise has been that of a young girl who longs to be married to Sonic. Though he cares for her, Sonic doesn't seem to love Amy- at least not as strongly as she loves him. Regardless, Amy refuses to stop chasing her dream, in the hope that someday she'll be able to change Sonic's mind and make him her husband.''

That doesn't have to be the exact phrasing, but it makes more sense from a storyline point of view, since it's a tad more explicit on the fact that her character has EXISTED for more than 12 years, but she's actually not that old. Of course, this is just another factor that completely throws into doubt the question of "When the heck did Sonic CD take place, anyway?"

Thoughts? --L T Dangerous 16:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Amy is 2 years old in sonic CD. Sonic is now 7, so Amy was born in 1991.That would make Amy 15, & Sonic 17... err..18.....19? Apparantly Sega gave each character an "age" at the time of "Sonic Heroes",no matter their original age. Clear things up?

Amy couldn't be two years old in Sonic CD! That's way too young. But, according to my Prima's Official Strategy Guide for Sonic Heroes, Amy's 12, and Sonic's 15. According to my official BradyGames Sega strategy guide for Sonic Adventure, Amy's 12, and Sonic's 15. No change. --anon

I'm pretty sure when they say over a decade, SEGA means the amount of time in human years since Amy was 1st introduced. They're not talking about the time period during the games. BlackEDGE MkII 02:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... --Luigifan 02:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Amy is like an Orphan(tiny spoiler about Tikal)
I have to disagree with the person who wrote the first part. In the comic book (Sonic the Hedgehog), Sonic has a family. I know Espio, Charmy, and Vector don't, but Tails does. In the comic book, he mentions that they're missing or stuck in some zone or something. Amy Rose's parents are missing, not dead. And although Big and Eggman (he has a cousin in the comic book, though) don't have a family, when you say 'like an orphan', you don't account for Sonic. And Tikal the echidna has a family mentioned in the game. Her dad is Pachacamac, her mom died when she was a child, her grandmother raised her, and then died, so Tikal is left with her father, who Chaos kills later. Therefore, I think we should add that Amy's parents are missing. If you don't mind, I will write it. --anon

DUDES!!Tikal lives with her dad in the mystic ruins--bippy3

How would you ever hear of Baby Amy Rose or make her up on her own. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

It's a fair point. Amy is 12. If she had parents, shouldn't she be living with them? Then again, nothing was mentioned by Sega. Or anybody else vaguely official, for that matter. Harley Quinn hyenaholic 22:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be possible she was adopted by Vanilla.
 * I have to doubt that, as Amy's debut came first, and if Vanilla had adopted her, that probably would have been mentioned. Besides, most of the other characters don't have any parents around, either.  --Luigifan 21:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Birthday
I edited a sentence: "Ideally, her birthday is September 23rd, 1973, when she made her video game debut.". Now, I'm near innummerate, but I'm pretty sure that 1973 plus 12 does not equal 2007, nor do I think she debuted before Sonic =P --L T Dangerous 22:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, if it doesn't equal 2005, Tails would be older than her. If she was born in 1993, she would be just a baby that hasn't become a year old. In any Sonic stuff, Amy Rose would say "I was born in 1973,". If she came to real life in your imagination, she'd tell you or anyone else that she's 32 years old. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

 * Really...I took a 1977 out of Tails' page earlier. It might be a good idea to check the rest of the Sonic character pages...if I weren't working right now, I'd do it myself. --Darksasami 23:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you should see Amy's debut game's year and then subtract 12 from that. The characters don't age you know! --anon

 * Actually, yes they do. I can't link you to it as it was years ago, but Yuji Naka once did an interview stating Sonic was 5 in Sonic the Hedgehog and was in his teens in the DreamCast games.  And let's not forget, Amy's age was altered by the time Sonic Adventure came out.  Either way, the sentence was still inaccurate even if you took 12 from the year of her video game debut because she still didn't debut in 1973.  --L T Dangerous 15:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't mean the 1973-year. Just put the correct one! And Amy might have aged, but did people like Sonic ever age? --anon

 * Sorry, I'm still gonna have to take Yuji Naka's line on this one, that Sonic was 5 in the original game and 15 in the Sonic Adventure games. Coming from any other source it may not mean so much, but since he's the head of Sonic Team, he's probably an authority on the matter.  I can see where you're coming from, though, because the characters don't necessarily age one year for every year that passes- depending on the continuity, Sonic may be 18 now or he may still be 15, it depends how Sonic Team see the whole series as a story.  Other characters have had their ages altered too, Amy, Rouge and Knuckles come to mind (not 100% certain on Knuckles, mind).  I think it's probably for the best we don't give a year unless Sega do.  I mean, who's to say the characters won't still be going strong in a hundred years?  They won't necessarily be 100 years old in terms of the storyline.  --L T Dangerous 13:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Does the game booklet count? Cause I think it says Knuckles is 16 years old. Anyway, you could say when Amy's debut was. And do you mind if I put an ability and love life section in it? --anon

 * Go for it! Be careful with the love life section, though, there are a lot of people who don't like fancruft in those sections for these characters ;)  --L T Dangerous 04:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay! --anon

Well, if she's 12, what grade would she be in? --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

7th grade, but I'm not really sure if the Sonic people go to school. I know that in the Archie comic book they did, though! --anon

Guys, just letting you know, Amy's first appearance WAS in 1993. And she'll be 13 on September 23rd. --AmyRosefan1000

http://www.absoluteanime.com/sonic_x/amy.htm That has her birthday. PS: This makes no sense. The entire SONIC series debuted in 1991. The first game doesn't show Sonic as a new born, does it?

Well, if she was 8 years old in her debuet, and that was in 1993, so her b-day was in...1985. -dark52

Amy and Rouge
When has Amy had a dislike for Rouge? I never saw Amy fight Rouge everytime she saw her. --anon

Well, AMY ROSE had a strong dislike for Rouge since Sonic Adventure 2. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

When? I don't even remember Amy talking to her in SA2! --anon

They argued a lot in Sonic Battle. --some guy

What did they say? --anon

Oaky, but was Amy just mad that time? And besides, they probably arent't going to fight every time they see each other. And if they fight in Sonic Battle, it's probably just because Sega wanted it that way. I mean, the whole game is all about fighting! --anon

Um, Amy never said that. She and Rouge were actually just fighting over Emerl the whole time really. And they definitely don't fight every time they see each other - just look at Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog. --Evilradiodude

And I'm pretty sure that Amy and Rouge don't have a strong dislike for each other, right? I mean, once Emerl is gone, I'm pretty sure they won't be angry at each other anymore. --anon

Yeah. They insulted each other and fought, but I'm pretty sure it was just over Emerl. And besides, they managed to hold a civil conversation in Shadow. So I don't think they really care about each other unless one has something the other wants. --Evilradiodude

Actually, I'm pretty sure they could possibly be friends if they had the chance to talk more to each other. And I'll be getting rid of the sentence about Amy disliking Rouge if there are no complaints. --anon

No complaints from me. I also think the "culinary skills" line should be gotten rid of, that was only in Sonic X. And there's another whole section for that. --Evilradiodude

In Sonic Battle, one line of Amy's to Rouge is "What dirty little deed are you up to now?" That's before Emerl is even mentioned between them, and it's a rather personal comment. They do technically fight over Emerl, but I feel that there is also a deep-seated conflict implied between them. -- Some girl called Harley.
 * If you knew Amy, you'd know that she was only saying that in jest. Visualise her saying that with a smirk on her face, and you'll have that cheeky part of her personality pinned. DavidHOzAu 03:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

But she wasn't saying it with a smirk on her face. She had one of her nasty glares most of the time she was talking with Rouge. I really can't see the delicate Amy and the rambunctious Rouge getting along, especially considering their personalities. --Some Girl Called Harley.
 * Amy is "delicate"? Don't make me laugh...  --Luigifan 16:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

 * In that case, you might be confusing annoyance with anger, i.e. she wasn't exactly spitting chips over it. (BTW, you might want to get a user profile.) --DavidHOzAu 03:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It's gotten worse: someone has moved Amy-doesn't-like-Rouge down to Sonic Battle. (Trying to hide it?) I thought the Personality section had already explained that Shadow proved that this was no deep-seated personal conflict. --DavidHOzAu 12:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, my latest edit fixes this. The text is still there, but commented out with rationale. As soon as someone adds the detailed reference to Rouge and Amy's conversation in Shadow, we can restore it. (I don't own a copy of Shadow, and probably never will.) --DavidHOzAu 12:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

You know, this whole "Amy dislikes Rouge" thing reminds me of "Amy dislikes Blaze/sees her as threat"...this is hardly true. She most definitely views Blaze as a friend; one only needs to watch the last story scenes to see this. The only time she ever felt threatened was when Sonic said he was looking for "some girl". He didn't state who she was, so Amy immediately jumped to conclusions. After finding out it was Blaze, she calmed down and told Sonic where she was. I think that proves that she doesn't feel threatened by Blaze in the slightest. I thought I'd mention this considering the love life section states that Amy sees Blaze as a threat.

According to some people they get along fairly well in Sonic X's new season, and as my edit stated Rouge sort of saves her later on. Sonic Battle was a fighting game anyway, they were just giving them reasons to beat eachother up.

Yeah, girls don't fight for no reason. Although something like that most likely wouldn't be a total fight for real women their age. Probably more of a catfight. -dark52

Sonic Rush
In Sonic Rush, it appears that AMY ROSE has been excluded from being a playable player. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

So has everyone else except Sonic and the new character, Blaze.

Many people looked all the way through the Sonic Rush instruction booklet and it shows that AMY ROSE is NOT PLAYABLE and they say "OH NO!! *sob*". --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com

Not really. Most people knew Sonic and Blaze were the only playables.

Newgrounds Video?
What is the name of the video on Newgrounds that this article talks about near the bottom templates?--WitchesBrew82 02:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Formal Tone
What part of this article is not formal-sounding? --anon

To me the personality section looks like it isn't using a formal writing structure. Compare its present state to Sonic's personality. I'll take a shot at cleaning it up. --DavidHOzAu 03:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There it is fixed. I'll remove that not formal-sounding caption now. If someone wants to put it back, please tells us why you're putting it there next time by posting in the talk page thanks. We can't fix it if you don't tell us what's wrong.--DavidHOzAu 04:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

But formal sucks! Never mind. I'll click on random article to fix these. Now start unlearning! I'll start with Sonic. You do NOT mess with informal Sonic and get away with it!

Amy is Annoying?
Her personality section said, "Some of her team members think she is annoying and useless, but she is actually has value." This is obviously not factual. It cannot be Cream because Amy was partnered with Cream to form "Team Jubilee"                                    --NOT TRUE U FAKER(LIKE SHADS)--BIPPY3   in Sonic Advance 3, and in Sonic Battle they live in the same house! In Heroes I never heard Big or Cream say that Amy is annoying and useless, besides the fact that they could not have formed a team without a speed type. I'm going to change it to "Some Sonic fans", and if someone objects to this alteration, it would be better just to get rid of this sentence entirely. --DavidHOzAu 04:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

They may not actually say it, because of course, Amy is thier best friend. They only find her a tad irritating when she's only focused on Sonic especially in crisis situations (e.g. when froggy and the chaos were stolen, then again, they believed in the first place that Sonic had them). Passionatepen103193 (talk) 12:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)Passionatepen103193

Adolescent
"Amy is an adolescent". This might be true to some extent, however from a NPOV this might come across that she still thinks like a kid. This is in contrast to the several times when she has acted more mature than Sonic, notably Episode 20 where she tells him off for acting so immature. Amy being adolescent really only applies to the main Archie Comic series where her character hasn't been developed much beyond that, and I've changed the article to reflect that. --DavidHOzAu 04:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Good Article
Once the edit wars begin to subside, we should consider getting this to be a good article. Besides article stability, we need to use references and cite some sources. (Lack of these are what got Sonic's article delisted from the good article list.)

Sometimes it's kind of hard to get references and sources. So far, I think the article that has the most references and sources is the Tikal article. --71.104.187.145 20:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Six references is hard to beat. ^_^ If it helps, I just added the reference to her profile page at Sonic Central. There has to be more out there though. --DavidHOzAu 22:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to look for some. --71.118.77.204 01:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, if this article is to be a good article, the trivia section should be worked into the article cause trivia isn't encyclopedic. After we work out all the problems, we should get a peer review. --71.118.77.204 01:30, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, there's speculation in the article. --71.118.77.204 01:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, the trivia can easily be worked into body of the artice. Some ideas I have worked out so far:
 * Move Yugi quote over to Love Life.
 * Move Princess Sally and Sonic CD into Game Appearances (second sentence about Sonic CD).
 * Move Sonia the hedgehog to somewhere into Amy's Appearances section(s), but I can't find the appropriate spot at the moment.
 * If someone wants to do this, feel free, I don't have the time at the moment. --DavidHOzAu 09:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

A link was removed. Get the details here. I am assuming good faith, but I'm not sure the link should be removed. For the record, I agree that the last point of the removal rationale is probably a good reason for not saying what Amy weighs. However, I just visited the link, and most of the information (in its 'History' section) comes from the Archie series. If this is the reason, a proper location for the citation is instead in the Archie or Family section, and I'll see if I can restore the reference to the appropriate location. --DavidHOzAu 22:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In regards to the above, about Amy's weight, her official character profile says her weight is a secret. (ヒミツ = secret) --DavidHOzAu 01:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize--I'm the culprit. None of the information there matched up with the most recently stated official information, and, actually, I just removed the reference again before noticing your comment here. However, if that information is still considered official for the Archie continuity, it should probably be restored. I just can't help but feel that it could be confusing to the average reader to be linked to a reference site that openly contradicts the information we have here, especially regarding height and weight. Does every reference need to be a website, or can we instead simply reference the particular comic itself in which the info appears? --Matt S. 03:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Acronym Abuse
I have gotten rid of the SoJ reference. Joe Blow off the street needs to be able to read this without getting confused. If the reader is not a Sonic fan or has not read the debates where people differentiate between the two, you won't know what SoA and SoJ translate to. If someone wants to restore the term, make an article to explain the difference between SoJ and SoA and what they mean. We have enough forking going on already without adding to it. --DavidHOzAu 04:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Amy Rose Blossom?
What's this from? My field of knowledge admittedly doesn't extend beyond the Sonic Team rendition, so this could very well be from the comics or something, but still, I'd just like to know specifically what the source of this is. I've never heard of "Blossom" being part of her name.

Same here. A google search reveals that it has only been used in a slash fic. Has anyone else heard of it before? --DavidHOzAu 00:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, forgot to put a signature on that. Anyway, yeah, this seems a bit weak. Google isn't really an authoritative source or anything, but I'd say that when all it comes up is a single piece of adult fanfiction regarding the name of a popular video game character, we can assume there's something wrong. I'm going to go ahead and remove the Blossom snippet, but if any of you folks out there can find evidence regarding its validity, you're welcome to put it back. Matt S. 19:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing that says Amy weighs around 54 pounds.
Unless a valid citation can be given, it'd be appreciated if this tidbit was left out. It definitely sounds like original research. There's nothing on the citation given that mentions her weight as anything but a secret. --Matt S. 04:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * After all, most women don't like to reveal their weight or age. Amy's no exception... well, as far as weight goes, of course.  Her age is no secret, even though some people think it is.  --Luigifan 03:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It was Concept Mobius (a now defunct site) that speculated her weight to be 54 pounds. UnDeRsCoRe 04:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Sonic Adventure 2
Was Amy ever intended to be playable in Sonic Adventure 2? I have this weird feeling she was. --FlareNUKE 15:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm personally not sure, and I don't know if anyone is. However, it is true that Sonic Adventure 2 was severely rushed due to Sonic Team's pressing need to have the game on store shelves by the series' 10th anniversary, so there's no telling just how many modes of gameplay had to be axed. --Matt S. 15:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Deleting too much reference in this article is vandalism. --ZachKudrna18@yahoo.com
 * It could be. However, always assume good faith, and don't bite newcomers. -- ReyBrujo 18:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone just added an inapporpriate pic and I'm takin' it out. DeathGodDragon EDGE 06:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Age
Wait a minute, I thought Amy was 12 in Sonic Heroes. Her age is very confusing because it keeps changing. PrestonH October 7th 3:30 (UTC)

It dosen't change. She was 8 in Sonic CD up until Sonic Adventure, where she was 12. She has always remained 12 since then. UnDeRsCoRe 20:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Archie Comics explains this by stating that she wished upon a Power Ring. In the other continuities, it's either a retcon or the progression of time; it's not really stated, so it's up to your interpretation.  --Luigifan 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely a retcon in the games. BlackEDGE MkII 05:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

When she was 8 years old before Sonic Adventure, who was she the same age as? Knuckles was originally 15 years old and was changed to age 16 since Sonic Adventure. --PJ Pete

 * Wait, Amy Rose was the same age as Tails and Knuckles was the same age as Sonic before Sonic Adventure. Amy and Knuckles were the only characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise that had a change in age. Amy Rose's age was changed from 8 to 12, and Knuckles' age was changed from 15 to 16. --PJ Pete

Wait a sec, isn't she 7?--71.176.13.196 20:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

of corse she's not 7!!! --SSBB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.169.191.60 (talk) 01:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Who said she was seven?? The youngest we've seen her (in game series; I don't read the comics) is 8 years old. Now she's twelve. Comprendo? -dark52

Love Life
Can anyone add the stuff about the relationship between Elise, Sonic, and Amy in 06? DeathGodDragon EDGE 03:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah... Not another love triangle... --Luigifan 12:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thankfully the love triangle has been retconned out of existence. Discussing Amy's reactions to it in-game however might prove interesting, provided it is written in the correct light.  I'll have to look at this article again. --DavidHOzAu 12:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Amy's Breast Size
I've already discussed this elsewhere, so I'm not really saying anything here. See Talk:Rouge the Bat for the discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luigifan (talk • contribs) 12:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

She's NOT Rouge! She's not supposed to be drooled over by guys! She's freakin' 12! Honestly! Son of Jadoja 20:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I know... personally, I find it disgusting when people make porn of her. Sadly, I have actually seen such a hentai... ever heard of "Amy in Hot?"  Ugh!  I have no intention of providing a link... I'd rather not burn people's minds with its sheer horror.  --Luigifan (talk) 23:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I Will Follow Him
This is the title to a song by Little Peggy March, and the song hails from the 60's. The refrain goes something like this:

I love him I love him I love him And where he goes, I'll follow I'll follow I'll follow

Do I need to explain myself any further? If you've heard the song in question, then you'll agree with me that it fits Amy to a tee. :p I can hear it as her theme song in fangames already!!! :p --Luigifan 03:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, there are a lot of songs with similar lyrics, including stuff like:

No mountain is too high, No ocean is too deep To keep me awayyyyyyy Away from my loooooooove

... You get the picture. However, I like this particular song the best, due to its overall upbeat, romantic tempo; in other words, the best tempo to represent Amy Rose. The fact that the song is sung from a female point of view helps a lot, too. So, yeah, I'm gonna leave you to your own opinions again... --Luigifan 19:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup list
I moved the cleanup tag to cleanup-list/ and or cleanup section, its more specific to what this article needs in general. Regards —— Eagle 101 Need help? 01:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Is Amy pigeon-toed?
Amy's feet usually point inward whenever she appears in Sonic Adventure 2. Is she pigeon-toed in the other games or just this one? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.121.128.131 (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC).
 * It's just a pose. Geez...  --Luigifan 22:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Amy discriminated, UNFAIR!
Have you seen the things said at the Cream the Rabbit Discussion? If not then I can put it all here if anyone wants the Amy rose portion of it. For those who have I say it's a total butchering of what life and personality Amy can have the potential to possess! THIS IS INJUSTICE I SAY, INJUSTICE! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mialover730 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Are you referring to "Sonic Team: Does it give a **** about the West?" Seriously, I just copy-pasted it from GameFAQs.  I did give credit to the guy who originally posted it, though.  If you like, I could bring it here, too.  And, I believe that it used to be on Blaze's talk page...  --Luigifan 12:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes please. This should be able to show everyone what's been happening.  Mialover730 00:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, here you go:

"This is from a site I found: Disclaimer: This is a factor as to why sonic's popularity has dwindled from what used to be in the west. It in no way suggests that Sonic has faded entirely.

sonics failing partly because of sonic Team’s ethnocentricity. They adhere to cultural tastes of eastern culture (particularly the Japanese), while alienating, and demeaning values in western culture.

Blaze and Cream are key examples. Sonic Team portrays exclusively eastern ideals to be "right". Cream is called a girl "no one can hate", someone who is immune to hatred. Cream reflects eastern ideals for youthful, innocent girls (like many anime female protagonists). Western ideals like being tenacious, sassy, smart, and athletic (like the Disney princesses) are seldom if not entirely void in Cream's character. She is not marked for being bright as noted by Blaze after she ignorantly insults Knuckles in his presence. She does not fight which deemphasizes athleticism. She also has a hard time keeping resolve that is shown in Heroes, when she wants to give up her search for finding her kidnapped friend, Chacola. This is the perfect girl that in Sonic Team's opinion, cannot be hated, which is further implied by a lack of testimonial criticism for her nature by other charachters.

Blaze is opposite of Cream. She has traits that westerners hold ideal in women. While Cream's eastern traits go uncriticized, Sonic disrespects Blaze’s very western resolve to get the Sol emeralds alone, calling her “overzealous" while he respects Knuckles' constant resolves to restore the Master Emerald by himself. Both Blaze and Knuckles mirror the other's duties as guardians to their respective emeralds. Both are qualified to be lone gaurdians. Blaze can attain the Sol emeralds alone, and KNUCKLES restore Master emerald alone. But Sonic, whom viewers hold bias for, (as we experience the game through mainly his points of view), believes Blaze is wrong for being tenacious while Knuckles is not Knuckles is not questioned for his endeavors.

And it's not just Blaze; taking charge is not rewarding to any female characters, in the games. Tails can be praised for saving Station Square on his own, while Blaze is criticized for being independent. Tikal fails to convince her father, and Amy’s tenacity to woo Sonic falls on deaf ears because Rouge, as well as Cream and Tails imply to her, is that being physical to gain respect is quote: "too persistent". Yes Amy aggressively takes charge with Sonic, so do his male rivals (KNUCKLES and gay shadow) their own agendas like Amy. Sonic has unspoken respect for them, not her.

He trusts them in decisions he makes: Shadow helping him defeat the Biolizard, and trusting Knuckles to take care of Amy and Tails in his place before his last battle with Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2. He will not run from them. When Amy is as aggressive as Sonic's male rivals are, Sonic runs away from her as he does in Sonic Heroes and Battle. The double standard between males and females suggests that western aggressive ideals are wrong, particularly in women. While eastern ideals for more passive women is "right" because characters like Cream go uncriticized.

Sonic Team is aware of the other continuities of Sonic outside of their games. But while Sonic Team has largely recognized the Japanese continuities, they almost totally ignore Sonic continuities in the west.

In the early 1990's there was a Japanese continuity of Sonic outside of the games, a manga in Shogakukan's Shogaku Yonensei. In this very manga, the original versions of game characters Amy Rose and Charmy were born. Sonic Team recognized this Japanese continuity of Sonic, and even decided to place these two comic book characters into the games Sonic CD, and Knuckles Chaotix. Compare this recognition to characters in the west. Not a single character in western continuities outside the games set foot in a game directly made from Sonic Team.

Many argue that Sonic Team rejects western characters for their games because they are involved in continuities/ storylines that are too different from their games. But Sonic Team changed Amy and Charmy from their original selves as much as necessary, so that they could fit into game premises should parts of their original basis be incompatible with the games. So it certainly was not a matter of compatibility or incompatibility between the manga and the game's storyline. It was not an issue that they were more popular than western characters. Because Sonic Team could be almost entirely changed from the way supposed fans of the manga might have originally recognized them, which they were. Sonic Team has never taken these extremes for characters of western continuities.

Amy's role as Sonic's girlfriend in the manga was negated to that of a fangirl in the games. Their original mutual, affectionate relationship is not incorporated in the games, which changes their dynamic. Charmy's role in the manga as Sonic's advisor is nullified. Charmy is a member of a detective team now. Again, this indicates an unfair bias Sonic Team has against continuities outside of Japan.

Sonic Team does not take responsibility to incorporate in their games what westerners typically affiliate with the name Sonic which take westerners out of their comfort zone. In the newer Sonic games, they constantly incorporate only what the Japanese affiliate with Sonic, confusing and alienating people from western countries, who identified with, "Coconuts" instead of "Kiki", "Robotnik" instead of "Eggman" to simply list a few examples.

Robotnik was the name given to Sonic's mustached arch nemesis in the west. Eggman was his name in Japan. Nowadays, Sonic Team has merged the names together. In the west Eggman is supposedly a nickname for Dr.Robotnik according to Sonic Team. That way, the names can both used simultaneously without cultural confusion, right? Wrong.

Sonic Team does not live up to their claims to "merge" the cultures. Culture alienation still exists in the western version of the games since the name Robotnik is rarely recognized in Sonic Team games, possibly only once. "Dr. Robotnik" is not actually called "Dr. Robotnik" in the English version of the games and even refers to himself as Dr. Eggman. Other characters including protagonists address him as such, even during serious situations when using a nickname, which is used to infer teasing/friendly familiarity is not appropriate (such as when Robotnik places a gun to Amy's head and she cries "Dr. Eggman!" in Sonic Adventure 2). The non-usage of traditional western elements in the more recent games infers what the west has established about Sonic is wrong, while what has been established to be Japanese is right. Despite both are correct terms SEGA has approved of since Sonic began on the genesis. Both names were originally products of localization, which exists in order to make different cultures connect with a product. Neither is more "right", as both names hold the same purpose for the character.

What's more, even Sonic Team's management of the games also implies bias to Japan. The famous incident that has recently occurred for instance: when the original game voices actors were fired, and replaced with the Sonic X ones. The reason for this decision was because Yuji Naka wanted to have smoother continuity, in which the game's voice actors were synonymous to the shows, like it is in Japan. There are two things that are problematic with his rationale:

In Japan, although the voice actors in the games were the same as in the show, it did not affect the overall popularity/unpopularity of the show, and these concepts were certainly not enough to save the show from cancellation. Despite this, Yuji Naka wants it managed like Japan.

Secondly, the sudden transition of voice actors was unsettling to western fans, after growing accustomed to the game actors, which existed longer than the show. This has caused resentment towards Sonic Team, especially since many of these fans would equally argue that the voice talent in the show is too melodramatic and mediocre. Naka did what he did for the sheer sake of making the west follow the east as has been policy for so long. Not because this move would be well accepted by the western fanbase..

Sonic Team has turned their backs on western culture, and has even gone through the trouble of disrespecting, and ignoring it. Westerners are subtly told not to be, or like western concepts in the Sonic games they buy. This despite the fact Sonic Team has the audacity to bring their games to the west which suggests they expect us to buy the games, when the anti western content make their games incompatible for the west. During the genesis era, Sonic was successful because there was no dialogue, or other identifiable themes in game itself that could be biased to a culture, and manuals could be made to localize the game.

People need to wise up. We are supposed to pay Sonic Team to play games that we are supposed to enjoy through personal connection, not the other way around. It is not fair that Sonic Team provides a take it or leave it attitude in which, you either tolerate their Japanese ideals, and accept the “wrongfulness” of western culture, or not buy their games at all. Japan is not an evil culture despite flaws, which can be present in all cultures, but as such can also be said for western ones. People who appreciate Japan's culture should be freely able to do so, but people who appreciate western culture should be as well, without someone inferring that they are "wrong" for doing so.

Sonic should belong to the world as SEGA originally intended, and not simply Japan."

Enlightening, yet disturbing, isn't it? --Luigifan 12:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Amy Camacura?
I had been around a bit or two on the internet and found 'amy camacura'. What was it like? Mialover730 10:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What the heck?!? --Luigifan 11:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I mean here http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~ZYUMON/photo2.htm Mialover730 02:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Amy's panties in the trivia section
Should that really be there? I mean we don't really care about her panties do we? I'm just asking for opinions from other people because I just removed it. --Coconutfred73 02:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, hate to say it Coconutfred73, but I think you were a little late to revert. Yeah, as I said in my edit summary, I just don't think very many people will care to know about her panties, whether this piece of trivia is verifiable or not. I left the IP a friendly custom message on its talk page, just to say that it isn't necessary. -- LuigiManiac  |  Talk  02:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Why do people keep adding this? I'm tempted to launch a volley of lonely nerd jokes XDGrandMasterGalvatron 20:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

 * The later Sonic the Hedgehog games contained some controversies; which the comic mischief was that Amy Rose had on some underwear that is sometimes visible in the 3D Sonic the Hedeghog games. --PJ Pete

Super Amy hoax
I just spotted the reversion of a "Super Amy" edit. (No, I wasn't responsible for inserting that stuff, it just somehow went under the radar for a while.) Anyway, Amy has no super form, so get that fancruft out of here! --Luigifan 02:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Blaze is the only girl in the series that has a super form. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 02:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Well, it could be a possibility that she has a super form but there's no official "Super Amy" because she isn't in the games. If SEGA had been planning for a Super Amy, they would have shown her form by now. Signed by-- A big Tails fan 1:27 PM July 10 2007

But SEGA never honestly came out and said, "No, Amy Rose has no Super Form. It is not real." Maybe they're up to making it in an upcoming game.- Mace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.253.132.250 (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to animation in Sonic Riders?
Ugh!! Who would think that animation is appropriate for younger gamers, where her head enlarges and her teeth become spiky? That animation is quite controversial is almost worse than the violence in PG-13 rated movies. --PJ Pete
 * What? Where did that come from?!?  Which one are you even talking about?  --Luigifan 12:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, you're talking about the animation used for Amy's Level 1 attack. What are you worried about?  The game's supposed to be cartoony, and "scary faces" like the one you just mentioned (with enlarged heads and spiky teeth) are a common tool used in Japanese cartoons to show that a character is upset.  Also, I'm pretty sure that Amy isn't the only one who executes a "yell attack" in Sonic Riders; I think Knuckles executes a similar attack at Level 1...  --Luigifan 13:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If anyone unfamiliar with Riders wonders what this discussion is about, here's a screenshot. And yes, Knuckles does the same thing. Personally I never found it "unappropriate" at all. Gurko 15:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you ask permission from the website to link the screenshot? If not, you will have violated copyright. --PJ Pete

In sonic riders jet wave and cream do a similar thing but Im not sure if jet and wave are yelling it look's like they're sneezing but Iknow that cream is crying can somebody tell me waht wave and jet are doing please?--99.241.156.180 (talk) 13:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Life-Living
How long do Sonic and his friends live for? They could possibly get old faster than human beings do. --PJ Pete
 * Seeing as they're all in their prime (if not still growing,) I think this question is a bit redundant. --Luigifan 10:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

From the first comic she appeared in
Where's the picture of the very first Sonic the Hedgehog manga she appeared in where she originally had a long blonde ponytail? --PJ Pete

Wasnt she Brown with a orange dress? --WillTheWitch —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillTheWitch (talk • contribs) 15:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This is always getting deleted, why?
Amy is not young. If she was, I would be 12 now. I would have passed now. I fixed this, but I have a feeling "young" will come abck to describe her. I don't see why this is constantly getting deleted. I am simply pointing out the fact wiki cannot sort young from old. If it is young, why am I not 12?
 * You have a good point, but the spelling and grammar of your argument are atrocious, and your manners leave a bit to desired. We're deleting it because we can't bother to put up with it.  We will keep the "young" data out of the main article, but please do not clutter the talk page with your immature whining.  --Luigifan 11:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the internet. Not school. I am very mature for an 11 year old. Thank you. PS: I have First Amendment rihts! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
 * Ah, aside from misspelling the word "rights", and some capitalization errors, that post was a lot better! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luigifan (talk • contribs) 11:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
 * I know how to spell rights. It's a little thing called "Typos." Got it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 02:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Piko-Piko Hammer?
I don't think that "piko-piko hammer" should redirect back to this page. Amy Rose isn't the only fictional character that uses the piko-piko hammer. Sana from Kodocha and Mii from Popotan both have the piko-piko hammer as their weapon of choice. The piko-piko hammer also appears in the Tales games, and in Mario Power Tennis, Luigi uses one. Redirecting it to Amy's article misses the point that the piko-piko hammer is a popular toy and is not exclusive to Amy. Then again, one could argue that Amy is the most well-known example of a character with a piko-piko hammer, but she's still not the only one. It's not as if Sonic Team made it up themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.254.119 (talk) 01:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, then again, Amy is the only character with a piko-piko hammer of the red and yellow color and that has hearts surround it. Amy happens to have a very unique piko-piko hammer. It is her trademark anyways. Passionatepen103193 (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)Passionatepn103193

SEGA never says Amy Rose is a hedgehog
I think this is just a pre-conceived opinion by fans, based on the fact that her orriginal design was a hedgehog and her affection for Sonic. 124.185.151.191 (talk) 02:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Amy's bio on the official Japanese Sonic site, Sonic Channel (http://sonic.sega.jp/chara/amyrose/index.html), says she is classified as a hedgehog (here is a translation: http://sonicjam.wikidot.com/sisghz:other-sonicchannel-cp-amy-rose). Just to be sure I also ran the word "hedgehog" through FreeTranslation.com (http://www.freetranslation.com) and got ハリネズミ which matches what is seen in Amy's profile. Cigraphix (talk) 03:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The History Section
Dear god, people, can we please cut down on all the plot summary? It's the bulk of this article, most of it is not cited, and it is a violation of WP:PLOT. We don't need to put in every little detail, especially if we can't cite it. I'm an inclusionist, but this is beyond description. I'll be willing to cut it down, but I'd like some consensus here on how much to cut down. Red Phoenix (Talk) 18:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to do it for you. Fair field fencer (Talk) 19:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I've shortened the History section, (by the way what do think of my new signature). Fair field fencer (Talk) 19:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's better, but I think I need to gut this article like I did with Miles "Tails" Prower. By the way, I'm loving the signature, did you get that from me?  lol.  Red Phoenix  (Talk) 14:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleted more content. And yes I did that from since you changed your user name I figured why not give my signature your old style. Fair field fencer (Talk) 14:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course. It looks good.  By the way, my latest revision is more of what I meant: reduction per WP:PLOT.  You don't need to cite every appearance every time, and you certainly don't need all that comic book plot summary.  By the way, FFF, you edit conflicted me while I was doing that lol  Red Phoenix  (Talk) 14:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for conflicting your edit, anyway I think the comic section should be brought back and trimmed a little. This article is the only place apart from the comics themselves that has that info. Fair field fencer (Talk) 15:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I only trimmed the plot summary. If you want to go back in the history and bring it back, that's up to you, but don't revert the entire thing, that will take another good fifteen minutes to go back and fix it all.  Wow, maybe I should've just done several little edits for my trimming.  Red Phoenix  (Talk) 15:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that when I looked at it through the diff button on my watchlist it seemed like you deleted the entire thing. Fair field fencer (Talk) 16:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Many of the cross-continuity characters (such as Tails and Knuckles) have separate pages for their comic incarnations. Given how much detail some of these encompass, wouldn't it make sense for that "version" of Amy to have another page as well? It would help cut the clutter and expand on specific-version info. 99.243.144.54 (talk) 02:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Amy ROSE
Is Rose Amy's surname or second first name?

Rose is considered her middle name. - Aladra Kay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.253.132.250 (talk) 22:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

relationships
This section has grown way out of proportion, and needs to be cut. Either so that characters that Amy really dont have any specific relationship with (such as Tails and Knuckles, whose relation to Amy is pretty much just "they are friends" or "or friendly terms") or it needs to be taken out altogether, like it was in Sonic's article. In fact, i vote for taking the "relationships" sections out of every Sonic character article, since they always get way to long and contains all kinds of fanfiction (For example "Amy/Knuckles/Rouge is a lot like an older sister/brother to Tails". When has Sega EVER sugested something like that? Just cause they constantly refer to Sonic as an older sibling type figure to Tails doesnt mean that EVERY older character in the game thinks of Tails as his/her baby brother). There are virtually no other character pages on wikipedia with sections like this anyway. But if we DO keep them, then we MUST atleast shorten them to only include characters that the character the article is about has some sort of SPECIFIC and MENTIONABLE relation to, and not just "they are friends". Rattis1 (talk) 10:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, okay I would have to believe the fact that in Shadow the Hedgehog, and later games, Sonic and Amy Rose are officially married, so you would have to say that Amy Rose is the girlfriend and later wife of Sonic the Hedgehog. --PJ Pete 17:26 August 7, 2008

Dude that is just crazy talk!!!Wolly da wanderer (talk) 09:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

He could have just read some random fanfic or got some misleading info.Reddashz (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)Reddashz

Why does Amy have an article?
If there's any character that ISN'T deserving of an entry here, it's Amy. She should be merged with the other lesser characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.141.17.24 (talk) 22:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC) Why do you have a life? She's a major character, like it or not, deal with it, hater. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.48.162 (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you KIDDING? Amy is a main character in the video games and the MAIN female displayed among the rest of the girls. She is the leader of Team Rose, she defeated Aqua in SA AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it was SHE who persuaded Shadow the Hedgehog to help on the Ark. Withouther contributions, earth would be dead. So maybe she's not a main character in the comics, but she did eventually have her own cmic series and is one of the well known video game female characters. Besides, she's the only person I know who would chase a guy for how long? Sorry if I'm a bit cuckoo, but I'm very protective of Amy.

Passionatepen103193 (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)Passionatepen103193

Amy is a main character. She appears in nearly every incarnation of sonic since her appearence. The article stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bottomlivefan95 (talk • contribs) 10:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We have plenty relevant info, the article's great, as were the others. Amy stays. Skeletal   S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R.   Soul  01:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool!
That new picture looks awesome! I also like the fact someone finally explains what she does in Sonic UnleashedReddashz (talk) 00:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)Reddashz

 * Strangely, someone deleted the Sonic Unleashed part. I put it back in.Reddashz (talk) 02:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't really put pictures in without mucking it up but if you could spread the images or make them smaller that'd be great Bottomlivefan95 (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Ummm... Amy is NOT Sonic The Hedgehog's Girlfriend. Although there are rumors that Princess Sally Acorn will one day marry Sonic, no significent difference would alter in his life. --69.253.93.29 (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

 * This isn't a forum. No one mentioned her being sonic's girlfriend in this section. Anyway, thanks reddashz. Bottomlivefan95 (talk) 15:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You sayed that to me 5 months ago
No I didn't 124.182.5.27 (talk) 01:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

 * forrtnitr 2601:19B:4401:6FF0:6D8D:3A33:905:E5E1 (talk) 03:37, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Amy Rose/Archive 1


text:
User talk:Tbrand

Greetings! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you have questions or doubts of any sort, do not hesitate to post them on the Village Pump, somebody will respond ASAP. Other helpful pages include: Have fun! --Jiang 02:53 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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title: SCTV


text:
Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Archive 1

Crap Towns
I also removed the section on the Crap Towns, which somebody has restored. I don't think is particularly relevant, there are many books on Hull and that is hardly the most authoritive.
 * - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I have restored the crap towns mention. whilst i do not necessariy agree with the comments above it is a notable book with its own listing on Wikipedia, and a notable fact about the city.GazMan7 14:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

De La Pole family and hospital
Does anyone care to tell the story of the illustrious De La Pole family? They rank as being worthy of at least some mention. sugarfish 03:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) Especially as 'Dela' is used heavily to mean spaztic because of De La Pole hospital near willerby (now nursing accomodation) being used as a mental hospital for many years 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * If this is the case I suggest that the people who use the term Dela "to mean spaztic" (surely the person who wrote this meant to write "spastic") ought to learn the difference between spasticity and mental illness.--Oxonian2006 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Except that you'd be up against decades of history of colloquial regionalised slang. In any case, when I was at school in the mid-70s it was used for anyone betraying the slightest degree of foolishness - not necessarily physical or mental defficiency - until it was supplanted by "Joey". Also, such regionalised slang is hardly isolated to Hull; a corruption of "Menston" was used in Leeds in relation to High Royds in the district of that name. Kids are inherently evil in that respect, and - no matter how "wrong" it is - pontificating about it on Wikipedia isn't going to make a scrap of difference, any more than telling them today that "gay" shouldn't be used an a catch-all derogatory term. Nick Cooper 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

 * That not something I'm familiar with, though I intend to elaborate on the history and historical figures, and business and industry, including:

 * - Reckitts & Colemans,
 * - Smith and Nephew,

Peter Porter
I took out this text
 * - so many construe his comment to mean that there were many poets living in Hull. Although it could also mean that the town is viewed as so appalling by some that it's misery is poetic.

and will try and find a Porter's quotation and see whether it is ambiguous or if this is just speculation [[User:Paul Tracy|Paul Tracy/ talk]]

Excternal links
Whats with the deletion of the external links? Is that accidental? Should they be reinstated?

Seems to be deliberate by one one individual. I'll try and keep the pubs and fish trail links going - swldxer.

The case against Hull section

 * I have taken the following out of the article as I dont think it is terribly encyclopedic, especially not with this title. G-Man  20:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Hull has the dubious claim to fame of having only 28.9% achieving 5+ GCSE grades A to C (the lowest in the country). This is partly due to the fact that the city boundary does not include many of the town's wealthier suburbs, which are in the East Riding of Yorkshire instead.

 * Something factual about low educational standards, high levels of crime and social disadvantage are justified providing superlatives like 'dubious claim to fame' are avoided.  Martin Spamer

The city was also awarded first place in The Idler Book of Crap Towns, published in 2003, and was named the worst place to live in Channel 4's Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, broadcast in August 2005. Rupert Murdoch's News of the World has termed it "hell on earth", however Australian author Peter Porter has described it as "the most poetic city in the United Kingdom".

 * I strongly object to this being left out of the article. I feel that it is encyclopedic.  The case against Hull is not a good title.  I would rather have named it "Reputation" or something similar.  I did not write the original section, however, Hull is widely known in Britain to be one of the worst cities there.  It is widely mocked in popular culture too for being such a drab place to live.  Hull has the worst GCSE results in the whole of Britain, this should be noted down in the article, and is one of the reasons it was ranked so lowly in the Channel 4 documentary.  The first edition of Crap Towns also ranks Hull number 1, although in the 2nd edition it dropped to 19th (I think).  There was an Only Fools and Horses episode named To Hull and Back, and when David Brent tries to explain his love for travelling, he says "Well, Hull didn't travel to me, did it?".  Feel free to comment, but I will probably reinclude the above paragraph, or something to similar effect later. - Hahnchen 00:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It should be noted that The Idler's book of Crap Towns, Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, Only Fools and Horses and The Office are not exactly scientific surveys. Furthermore, due to the local government stucturing within the city, statistics for the schools in West Hull have their GCSE results included in the results for the East Riding. The west of Hull is generally more prosperous and crime-free, and schools there perform better. I can think of no other city which suffers from this handicap.

 * If they're not within the Hull boundaries, they're not in Hull. It'd be like including the results from Stockport in Manchester.  Epa101 20:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You say that "Hull is widely known in Britain to be one of the worst cities there". This is news to me - do you have a source or is it just your POV? Paul Tracyundefined

 * That's true, yes. However, in popular culture, Hull is seen as one of the worst places in Britain, and has been mocked in the various publications and productions.  Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, whilst not a scientific study, did take lots of numeric factors into account, like crime rate, education, employment etc.  The show also mentioned that Hull is the fattest city in Britain which has not been mentioned here before, .  Hull does have a bad reputation, however, one should balance the above paragraph with the regeneration projects happening in Hull.  New developments like the KC Stadium, The Deep and numerous new housing projects aim to lift Hull's image.  However, other schemes like the demolition of 2 failing schools, rebuilt as Endeavour High have so far failed, the new school having similar or worse results than the schools before it. .  I'm not sure about other city's boundaries, but to me, I think that small city boundaries have been a scapegoat for failing Hull schools, looking elsewhere for the problem, instead of itself.  It has however, led to a brain drain away from Hull and into the surrounding areas with schools in East Riding being oversubscribed.  - Hahnchen 15:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Facts are always useful in an encyclopædia. But your assertions that "Hull is seen as one of the worst places in Britain", "Hull does have a bad reputation" etc are subjective and smack of prejudice. By the yardstick you employ, Liverpool could be described as "widely known to be full of shell-suited shoplifters" and London as "the suicide bombing capital of Europe". Paul Tracyundefined
 * You can place these facts in without a strong POV. The publications and TV shows mentioned above may not be scientific, and there are many things that can not be judged by statistics, like sense of community.  Whereas the only reference to shell suited burglarising Liverpudlians I can find is the Harry Enfield show, many sources have ranked Hull as a bad town.  Hull has the worst GCSE pass rate in Britain, that's unarguable.  But if you feel that the Hull references in the above publications and TV shows would be too POV to include then I would follow the consensus established here. - Hahnchen 00:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Oops. This is my fault for seperating out that section and giving it a heading that, really, wasn't very wikipedia - so feel free to get rid of that. The text of that section should remain though, whether it gets its own (good) heading or not. The fact that Hull keeps on winning these accolades tells you a lot about the place. --Artw 04:09, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * To be fair, this is a factor of some universality and is Wikipedia's drawback, not Hull's. In any other encyclopedia no talk of settlement reputation would and should be tolerated in either direction, full stop. Erm, well in any case except for the barely ostensible tinge of personal opinion - the issue would be kaput, finished, dead. That policy would be final, unequivocally-appreciated and absolute. Sadly, Wiki's "different". ;) Only the world can police Wikipedia and sadly, albeit understandably, the rest of the world can scarcely refrain from plunging in with that venerable 'Point of View'. If it were my call, I'd simply try out of no other option to integrate into the article the juxaposing views sympathetically, with a view to maintaining maximum accessibility for a wide spectrum of opinion. It is after all, still an encyclopedia, even if a somewhat 'divergent' one. (MRacer)

 * It's true. Hull is one of the worst cities in the United Kingdom. Having lived in many a place, I find Hull to be the smelliest, beggar-ridden, rat-infested city I've ever seen. Attempts to clean up the city with its 'Gold Zone' policy have only served to point to the fact that its streets are overrun with chavs and people high on pot and cider. There are lots of things in this article which are opinionated. For example, Hull having one of the most advanced network infrastructures in the county. Says who? Kingston Communications co-developed the ADSL technology and yet dragged its heels when it came to rolling it out in its own town. Instead, they tried to push an ultimately terrible interactive television vehicle, KiT. To say it's one of the most advanced is a laughable lie. MAN's exist in most of the major cities in the United Kingdom and indeed the world. It is not anywhere near the most extensive, or the most advanced.
 * You should write in to the daily mail, all they're doing is printing letters from angry Hull residents about how it's the greatest place on planet earth. But I think the Case Against Hull section can wait for a while, preliminery GCSE results show that Hull have lifted off the bottom of the table and jumped 7 places up. - Hahnchen 15:34, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

My mate went to uni there and came back describing the city as 'an absolute shit-hole'. Seeing as she grew up in a place as crap as Cramlington, this is indisputable proof of its crapness.

I also removed the section on the Crap Towns, which somebody has restored. I don't think is particularly relevant, there are many books on Hull and that is hardly the most authoritive.
 * - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hull has often been voted as the least popular place to reside in the UK. Mostly may I add by small minded people who haven't even been to Kingston upon Hull."

While the second part of this is probably accurate, it almost certainly qualifies as POV! 193.129.65.37 07:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Definately opinionated, I agree. I would, however, argue that the first part is also true. Having lived in Hull and numerous other places, it's hard not to disagree. Either way, its status as 'worst town' should be noted somewhere. --Dan (Talk) 10:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Most comments made on this page are opinions and not actual facts. I generally find most negative and somewhat 'hateful' comments originate from, as mentioned, small-minded people who have never visited the city (and probably don't know where it is). No one can deny any of the problems the city has (i.e. education), but such problems are slowly (but surely) being improved. Many northern cities have suffered from neglect over the past few decades - take Newcastle for example - but urban regeneration and major development has helped to change the face of that and many other cities. Now it is Hull's turn. With over £1 billion of investment things are changing... and for the better. Do not judge Hull by pseudo-literary publications or TV programming. See for yourself what the city is really like.

Im sure a quote by someone by Philip Larkin would be a satisfactory addition. He hated the place and always told everyone. Who was the guy who said "Is there anything nice about hull? ... well, its very flat so its good to cycle on."

The Name
I am assuming the city is officially the City of Kingston-upon-Hull - perhaps that should be made clearer in the article...--80.195.253.219 03:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Officially it is the City & County of Kingston-upon-Hull87.102.44.114 03:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Is it with or without hyphens? Kingston-upon-Hull or Kingston upon Hull? Or either? Official websites seem to use both, the wiki article is without. Folks at 137 11:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've seen both uses too, although more often without hyphens than with, at least in Hull's case. There is inconsistency among cities with similarly constructed names (cf. Newcastle upon Tyne and Stoke-on-Trent). My personal preference is without (easier/quicker to type), and I think as long as one form is used consistently throughout an article, it doesn't really matter. Doonhamer |  Banter  14:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

County
I made a minor edit earlier to the intro that removed the reference that Hull was in Yorkshire, it was reverted with the following citation: http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=221,83114&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL although the point is that Hull hasn't been in the county of Yorkshire for decades, from 1974 until 1996 it was part of Humberside and since then it's been a Unitary Authority with no County council - which would support the fact it's not 'in' Yorkshire, it's surrounded by it, as the second intro paragraph states. For anyone who doesn't know the area, the wording of the opening paragraphs is awful, so is it in Yorkshire, surrounded by yorkshire, or somewhere near Timbuktu? Jastein 23:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hull is in Yorkshire. Hull has been part of Yorkshire since 1996 when Humberside was abolished. There doesn't need to be a county council for a city to be part of a county. Newcastle is in Tyne and Wear - it is a unitary authority not a county council, Liverpool is part of Merseyside - it is a unitary authority not a county council etc... I understand its a grey area - but if the citys own council is saying its part of Hull, your going to need a lot of fact to show its not. Its definetely nowhere near Timbuktu neither. --TFoxton 00:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What about the "Welcome to the East Riding of Yorkshire" signs as you leave the city? :-p I understand what you are saying about the council although I still personally think it is a grey area dependent on how you define geographic region in England. Historic Counties? Ceromonial Counties? Administrative Counties? Common postal addresses?

 * My main point is not to do with the Unitary Authority (that was just badly explained on my part, I apologise) but this may get my point across:

 * "Hull, is a city and unitary authority which is situated on the north bank of the Humber estuary in the northern English county of Yorkshire.

 * It is surrounded by the East Riding of Yorkshire and forms part of that county for ceremonial purposes. It is part of the Yorkshire and the Humber Government Office Region."

 * So to the uninformed visiting Wikipedia wishing to learn about Hull, the intro tells them it's in the county of Yorkshire, as well as both being in and surrounded by East Yorkshire. Jastein 00:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I understand your point - I think some of the problem lies in the fact that the East Riding of Yorkshire is called that, that is the name for the Unitary Authority that covers the area, whereas all that area plus Hull is known as just East Yorkshire. It is confusing as you say re the signs as you enter the East Riding. As you enter Wakefield or Richmond for example you are entering these areas plus South Yorkshire and North Yorkshire respectively, so when you enter the East Riding of Yorkshire, you enter it AND East Yorkshire, see Ceremonial counties of England. Feel free to rearrange the intro paragraph.--TFoxton 11:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, I played around with several wordings, and unfortunately, the most accurate and concise one in my opinion was the one I changed to before. The main reasons are that it gives the location in the world (Humber estuary, in the north, in England) without the confusion of the differences between the types of counties. Also, the detail with the counties is expanded in the side pannel and further on, without muddling up the intro paragraphs. If this is still a problem feel free to rewrite and comment here. Jastein 02:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The big thing a lot og you are getting hung up about are just arbritary administration districts. Yorkshire itself still exists in is traditionasl and historic state which it has done for centuries. It is just no longer administered by a single or several councils/authorties which take a simple name of 'Yorkshire', 'somthing Yorkshire' or 'Yorskhire something'. The fact still remains that Hull is well and trubly part of the greater area called Yorkshire (which isn't even the sma eas the Government region Yorskhire and the Humber, as that inlcudes parts of Lincolnshire yet disculeds areas to the north, such as Middlesborough and Redcar). Evil Eye 17:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The counter point to that is: how do you determine relative geographic locations without referring to administration regions of one kind of another? They do change over time, and so do people's relative geography. Many in Hull (embarassingly including the council on the odd occassion) refer to Hull as being in Humberside still...yet Humberside as a region was never wanted nor liked "by the people" and as an administration area has ceased to be. Some Mancunians still consider themselves to be in Lancashire, although I doubt many Londoners consider themselves to be from Middlesex. A few years down the line, Hull and Yorkshire might be the same, who knows. For now though: the opening paragraph I altered doesn't sound as contradictory, and the info about the different classification of administrative regions is in the infobox, including the historic county of Yorkshire. Jastein 18:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Though I cannot be 100% certain on this as I wasn't around at the time of the change, I have read/heard from seevral sources that one line of argument used by those who were creating the admin districts in the 70s was that the traditional counties were not being replaced by these new admin districts, but rather they would still exist along side then, only that they wouldn't be used for admin purpose. I don't think that has ofically changed to this day, so it would suggest the old traditional and historic Yorkshire still exists and anything whcih was part of histroic Yorkshire still is (it's quite topical, but this would explain why Saltburn-by-the-Sea, which is in the admin area of Redcar and Cleveland or somewhere similar, played host to offical Yorkshire Day celebrations a couple of years. If it wasn't still offically in Yorkshire, it shouldn't have been able to do this. Evil Eye 09:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Culture
On an unrelated note, the culture cleanup flag is definately deserving, although, what should be done to tidy it up? I'd be in favour of removing all but the most prominent entries (Beautiful South, EBTG etc.) in what seems like an advertisement for college bands, but I wouldn't want to seem rash. Ideally it would end up being organised like Manchester, Leeds or Bradford. Any comments or suggestions? Jastein 02:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

 * - definitely - many of the bands listed are in the 'not notable' category. seems like that section about live music was written by a promotor, to me... --82.43.100.107 23:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wilson Line
Thomas Wilson, his sons Charles and Arthur and the Shipping Line they owned are surely one of the major parts of Hull history and have been completely ignored in the entry. Hull was at one point the Third port in all England trade. I think it would be worth adding an entry about their cultural significance in Hull's history. I would also consider a better mention of William Wilburforce and for Philip Larkin, especially regarding the university. User:El Scorcho 14:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hull maritime project

This page is part of a WikiProject that links all artciles relating to Hull's maritime history in this period. There is a section in this article that will be monitored and possibly added to by the project for accuracy and to be comprehensive. | Hull Maritime Project

Ludgates, Hull, England
If one is to come from the Ludgates, Hull, England, where are they from actually? Could Ludgates actually mean "Flood gates"? If so does Hull have flood gates and if some one reffered to them as being from there where would that be?
 * No idea - live in Hull and never heard it. Hull has a flood barrier (not gates) - with housing kind of near by but...?

I havent heard of Ludgate in Hull but there is a Lowgate. The ___gates in Hull typically refer to roads where gates existed when it was a Walled settlement. This is origins of Whitefriargate, Posterngate and Lowgate. Alot of what is now the city center _is_ built on reclaimed flood planes and some this was flooded during the Civil war seige of the City by the destruction of water sluices. The river Hull has a tidal barrier that is mentioned in the main article but this is modern structure (maybe 20years old).

Historically LUD [Llud] (73-58 BC): Was a king of Britain, came down from Scotland and made his way through Northumberland to London there are Ludgates in London, Leeds, ?York and Birmingham and probaably other places as well... though I don't think there has ever been one in Hull. Lud ordered the rebuilding of London's walls and towers. Up to this point London had been known as Trinovantum but now it became known as Kaerlud, or the City of Lud. This was later corrupted to Kaerlundein or City of Lundein, a small step to City of London. Lud is buried in London close to Ludgate which bears his name. Lud had two sons, Androgeus, Duke of Kent and Tenvantius (Tasclovanus), Duke of Cornwall but neither were considered suitable to succeed their father which was how Cassivelaunus, Lud's brother, became king...

There's also Blackfriargate it's near the Ha'penny bridge to the Deep. 83.100.175.111 22:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

St Stephen's / Quay West
Is it worthwhile adding info about both of these developments?

 * Under transport a mention of the new interchange that will be created may be required when considering adding the St Stephen's development.
 * Keith D 16:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. I think a section on the regeneration of the city should be included here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.102.38.123 (talk • contribs) date.

 * Added, under Economy heading, feel free to edit as appropriate --TFoxton 22:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Accent
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/search/advanced.cfm This details four different accents from Hull, and all four seem to have the O: sound in "goat" listed. Did somebody get it the wrong way around in the article? I'm not an expert on how to represent pronounciations.

Also, on it being different from Yorkshire generally, I think it's better to say that it's very different from East Yorkshire accents. Two reasons why:

1 There are plenty of areas in Yorkshire that have an accent unlike anywhere around. Harrogate is arguably the best example. [Only joking]. 2 Being from the West Riding, I don't find Hull speech to be that different whilst I find the rest of East Riding speech to be completely different. Epa101 20:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Just doing another search, the accents for the East Riding towns of Old Goole, Withernsea and Old Newton all have an 8 sound listed for "goat". Sounds like someone got it wrong way around to me.  Epa101 20:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming
Actually, should this article be moved? If so, to to Hull or Hull, Humberside as Hull is the most common name? Simply south 12:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's fine as it is. "Hull" get's to a disambiguation page as it should.  This is meant to be an encyclopedia so the proper name rather than the more common name is appropriate.  And certainly not to Hull, Humberside as it's not in Humberside - whatever that is/was. MikesPlant 12:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Keep as it is. Kris 13:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. Humberside is the region around Hull. The suggestion was based on a similar move thing. See Talk:Letchworth. Simply south 16:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hull Fair
Think that there should be some mention of the Hull Fair similar the entry on the Goose Fair in the Nottingham atricle. There is also a separate article on the Goose Fair itself which may be possible if there is enough material.

Keith D 13:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably doesn't merit a page in its own right, as it doesn't have the history of the Nottingham event, but even so it is worth a mention. It notable that the 1928 Ordnance Survey map of West Hull has the Fair Ground marked as such, so a point can be made about a piece of land specifically set aside for the purpose in Hull, as opposed to elsewhere, where fairs are usually held on park or common land.

Nick Cooper 14:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The Wyke fair was first charted around 1100 Charter by the Abbot of Meaux. It's current existence is down to the 1279 charter by King Edward. The National Fairground Archive maintained by the University of Sheffield has more information at http://www.hullfair.net and http://www.shef.ac.uk/nfa/history/charter/hull.php

Martin Spamer

Hullensian?
The page says that an inhabitant of the city is called a 'Hullensian'; however I've never ever heard this term - most people I know use 'Hullian'. I'm not sure whether this is widely used either (most results on google are to do with psychology, although the top one is a website of someone in hull). Anyone have any thoughts on which is more correct? --smigs 22:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Hullian" is what I've heard the most regularly. It always reminds me of "hooligan", which is apt. I've never heard the term "Hullensian". "Hullite" is another one. Robinoke 08:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've heard "Hullensian" a few times, and I think it appears in the names of a few minor sporting teams from Hull although I couldn't name any. I have heard "Kingstonian" as well, which also rolls off the tongue but may lead to confusion with Kingston Upon Thames. I've never heard "Hullian", although that's a term you'd imagine most people almost 'making up' since that's a very common ending for an inhabitant. I did hear "Hullite" once a while ago, but it really doesn't sound as natural as these other terms. I would suggest there isn't a name for an inhabitant of Hull in common usage. Kris 10:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Kingtonian seems to be the most used formal/written form and I've certainly heard that used by the BBC local news; Hullensian is a common enough verbal alternative. I can't recall ever hearing Hullian or Hullite. Martin Spamer.

Hullensian is used, or was used in the Hull Grammar School Alma Mater, should probably have a larger section on that too, it was a pretty major part of Hull's history, and had a number of famous students, including William Wilberforce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The Deep
I was wondering about the so little mention of The Deep in this article. I would say it is one of the most famous structures in the area and should at least warrant a picture on this page with some details (I can provide a photo if necessary). What do you lot think? The Guy From Ipanema 22:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Go for it. Kris 08:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I know this isn't a tourist brochure but upon visiting Hull, i found it was better than the aquarium in London. Simply south 12:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Wyke upon Hull
The tale of John Wyke, Archbishop of York and the locals being miffed is all very nice, but it isn't backed by the sources. For a start, check out Wikipedia's List of Archbishops of York (or look up another version) - you'll notice John Wyke is totally missing (and certainly wasn't about at the relevant time). Certainly, Wyke existed well before 1291, and histories of Hull (and gazetteers of names etc.) give another story about the early history.

It is most likely that the shortening to 'Hull' came about from the town being well known for it's port, which was named (at least as far back as 1193) 'The Port of Hull', after the river on which it stood. 82.153.111.141 00:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparison with Kingston upon Thames
Can I just query the point about Kingston upon Hull being shortened to Hull to 'avoid confusion with Kingston upon Thames'? The city has been referred to as Hull since medieval times, back when it was called Wyke-upon-Hull and I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with it being confused with Kingston upon Thames. (little muddy funkster 22:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
 * I've removed it. It was unsourced and completely wrong. - smigs 00:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Photo's
Have uploaded some photo's - may be of use... maybe not... at the bottom of my user page... Merlin-UK 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Recently managed to get some better quality indoor shots in Holy Trinity have added them on my userpage, help yourselves if they are of any use... soory you need alink as they are on commons here... [] Merlin-UK 21:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured Picture
Please visit Featured_picture_candidates/KC_Stadium_at_night if you are interested in having the picture of the KC Stadium raised to the status of featured picture or if you think that it definitely shouldn't be featured. Thanks, ...adam...  ( talk •  contributions ) 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion
Firstly, do you think that a statistic from six years ago about church attendance is relevant anymore?

Secondly, do you trust it? When you think of towns with large Muslim communities, do you really think that Hull's church attendance is lower than Dewsbury, Bradford, Tower Hamlets, etc.? It seems unlikely to me.

A church in a parish in east Dewsbury closed recently. I remember, in about 2003, that the church was practically deserted. Don't think that attendance was too high around there! Epa101 22:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Nightlife
Does anyone else think this section sounds slightly more like an opinion than fact? Also shouldn't the section be highlighting what the city offers currently rather than what has recently closed down?little muddy funkster 18:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Reputation
After reverting an edit this morning that had deleted the Reputation section entirely, I read it a bit more closely and decided to try to improve the section a bit. I rewrote and added references to a few of the statements about Hull. I am generally very gung-ho about reliable, objective sources and hesitated a bit about using an external posting board as a source, but as a topic such as "reputation" is inherently subjective, I decided to include it. My own POV is positive as I love the city, but I tried to keep to keep the same blend of positive and negative statements as existed before my edits. I'm not done finding sources and references; if anybody else can find references for the uncited statements still extant in the section, please feel free to add them. Doonhamer |  Banter  20:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed this sentence from the end of the first paragraph in the reputation section: "However, the city did not appear anywhere in the Bottom 10 of the more recent, 2006 chart, where it was replaced by Hackney, London." as this information already existed, with source, just a bit further down the page. Doonhamer |  Banter  01:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Channel 4's worst places 2007
It looks like Hull's back on the list in second place, with Middlesbrough the worst. Was wondering what other editors thought of removing all references to this programme entirely from the article? The articles for Manchester, Nottingham, and Middlesbrough, other perennial favorites for the list, make no mention of it, and I don't see how mentioning Hull's ranking every year adds to the article. I'm sure more serious sources for the city's negative and positive qualities can be found. What do others think? Doonhamer 14:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As somebody who spent their first 17½ years of their life in Hull (and with a number of relatives still licing there), it's always seemed to me that the city's alleged awfulness is something that defines it to the rest of the country in popular terms, in the same way Liverpool is characterised by various aspects of its population (good or bad), Manchester by its music, etc. Although lacking the likes of John Betjemen's the cultural endorsement of Slough (which that page isn't shy of acknowledging), Hull invariably figures in the Crap Town/Worst Place to Live stakes, although probably more because people expect it to be there, and indeed are keen to put it there because it reinforces what people think already. Nick Cooper 15:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Point taken Nick. No one else has seen fit to comment, so in it stays. Doonhamer 17:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Paul Collins
Removed "Paul Collins, attended the University of Hull" from the list of people associated. The link goes only to a disambiguation page with no indication of which Paul Collins there, if any, is this person. Doonhamer |  Banter  15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I checked all the links on the Paul Collins dab page. None of them indicates which might be the Paul Collins who attended the University of Hull. Doonhamer |  Banter  15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

External link to regeneration forum
While I agree that Wikipedia is not a link farm, I do think that the link to the urban construction forum is an appropriate link and is not low quality. I initially removed it last night. But, after re-reading the WP:EL guidelines on discussion forums (generally to be avoided unless the forum is dedicated to the subject of the article, which this one is) and visiting the forum myself, I changed my mind and decided it would be a good addition. The forum users often post useful information and links to genuine third-party source documents such as planning documents and construction company design pages. Considering the article has a section on regeneration in Hull, I see merit in keeping this link. <font color="Orange">Doonhamer <font color="Orange">| <font color="Orange"> Banter  19:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Good Article status-ready, don't you think?
After reading the article and some other info related to Hull, I think this B-Class rated article is actually a shoe-in for a Good Article. Any interest in pursuing this status at this point? --Mareklug talk 07:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Think we need to do some work but should be worth the effort if we can get it to at least GA status. See rating comments at Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Comments for points that need addressing first. Keith D 08:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

 * It hadn't occurred to me to submit this article for GA. I was always under the impression that the Music sections of articles on cities and towns, which invariably attract unsourced and oftentimes unsourceable content as bands-of-the-week come and go, would be a stumbling block. I'd be willing to help though. Doonhamer15:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I have added the "Automated Review" output to the comments for further pointers to look at in preparation for GA review. Keith D 20:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Simply south that lots more references are needed. Probably one of the higher priority items to work on. Doonhamer 14:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I would agree we need lots more reliable references apart from probably the people section as the references, in theory, should be on the wikilinked pages. Keith D 15:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I've added a couple more tags now and am uncertain about should the Lead and History have more refs? The other sections i have not tagged seem okay. Simply south 21:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I started adding content to the lead a few days ago, drawing from information already existing in the article. This weekend I'll work on sourcing the lead and the the content in the article I drew the lead info from. Doonhamer 13:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Referencing looks good so far, however, it doesn't need to be done for every single sentence or word, just as long as the info is there so after a few sentnces. Simply south 00:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Would be good if you can remove the tags from a section when you think we have covered all of the referencing required. May be we can move to the Fact templates for specific items when we have nearly finished a section. Keith D 15:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular Music
After one too many IP addresses added another flavour-of-the-week band complete with link to its MySpace page to the "current bands to look out for" paragraph, I thought I'd start working on the Popular Music section. I looked to the articles on Birmingham (GA-status) and Manchester (FA-status) for guidance. Neither has a similar list of current local little-known bands, although both mention well-known bands that emerged locally. So I decided to remove the list of local little-known bands as being difficult to source, unmanageable, unencyclopaedic, and prone to misuse for promotional purposes. I've also started trying to locate sources for the remainder of the material in the section. Doonhamer 22:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Infobox image rotation
It isn't useful to revert to an earlier image in the infobox with nothing more than "it's a far better image" in the edit summary when the criteria by which such a judgment is made isn't defined. Doing so amounts to little more than "I reverted it because I liked the old one better."

The image I use shows a view toward Queen Victoria Square from Carr Lane with several landmarks of Hull visible, such as the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery. It also shows a livelier street scene than did the previous photo. That image purported in its caption to show Victoria Square, but really showed nothing more than the architectural details of the upper stories of two buildings in the square, with no sense of direction or perspective for the viewer. According to these criteria, the current photo is "far better". However, I make no claim to the intrinsic worth of either; each is useful in its way.

At any rate, rotating the infobox photo every few weeks to highlight different areas and views of the city would seem to be a good idea, but if anybody feels otherwise, I'm happy to discuss the matter. Doonhamer 23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The above points made, I've restored the city centre thumbnail in the infobox to the previous version until the Commons server caching issues are sorted permanently. Doonhamer 01:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I disagree. Have you not just reverted it too - is that because you "...liked the old one better"? The image you curently have on the page (:Image:Hull City Centre.jpg) is of nothing but a road and double yellow lines. It shows very little of Hull. Admittedly, the previous image is only of two building tops but is far more striking and shows a representation of Hull's city centre. The current image would be far better on the article A1105 road (Carr Lane) if there were one. Im not going to revert again, but a consensus, vote or agreement may be worthwhile. --TFoxton 16:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

 * No, I rotated the image because I stand by the point I make above, that rotating the photo periodically to show different views of the city enhances the article, a point you do not address. In a few days or weeks, I'd be happy to rotate the photo to one of the KC Stadium or the Hull Maritime Museum or the Arctic Corsair or the Ferens Art Gallery or the Tidal Barrier or the original photo or anything else worthy of note in the city. I'm also curious why you would think that a view of the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery constitutes "very little of Hull". The user only needs to click the thumbnail to see the larger image and the description from the Commons, explaining the view as I just did to you. Doonhamer 17:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Schools
it says its gcse pass rate was 50% but it was well below the national average at 25.9% and one school got only 6% pass rate. god they are fucking thick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.33.131 (talk) 17:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Do you have a source for this? Secondly, please be civil when writing comments. Simply south 20:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On the topic of schools: Would anybody like to take a crack at sourcing the middle paragraph of the Schools subsection? I started sourcing that section and finished the first paragraph (the last was already sourced), but as I've not lived in the UK since I was two, my familiarity with the UK educational testing system in general, and the assertions in the middle paragraph in particular, is basically nil. I will continue sourcing other sections needing it this weekend. Doonhamer 17:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Failed to locate any suitable sources for this as yet. All I came up with is the single reference to last in the tables which I have added as an example reference for the first sentence. I will keep looking as there must be some reports on it. Can anyone else pitch in with this? Keith D 21:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[outdent]

I have removed the following text from the schools section as I can find no references to support it. I have replaced it with current information on the 2007 results but feel free to re-add it if a suitable reference can be found. Keith D (talk) 11:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This, however, is a problem that many large inner-city Local Education Authorities have. In 2006, Hull’s secondary schools’ examination succession rate rocketed by 75% from 28.9% of pupils achieving 5 or more GCSEs with grades of C or higher in 2004 to more than 50%, bringing Hull close to the national average. This was partly due to a major restructuring of Hull's secondary education system, which involved several closures, mergers and the construction of an entirely new school. In common with many other regions, the number of pupils passing five GCSEs dropped when the system was changed to count only those pupils passing English and Maths as part of the five.

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Archive 1


text:
Flores, Petén

Flores is the capital of the Petén Department, Guatemala's landlocked, northernmost department. The population is 13,700 (2003).

Flores is the seat of the municipality of Flores (population 22,600).

Its Catedral Nuestra Señora de Los Remedios y San Pablo Itzá is the cathedral episcopal seat of the Apostolic Vicariate of El Petén (formerly a territorial prelature). The old part of the city is located on an island on Lake Petén Itzá, connected to the mainland by a short causeway. On the mainland is the suburb Santa Elena and, to the West, the contiguous municipality of San Benito. The municipality of Flores also includes a wide swathe of rural territory stretching north from Lake Petén Itzá to the Mexican border.

History
In Pre-Columbian times, Flores was the Maya city of Nojpetén.

Nojpetén

Earliest archaeological traces on the island date back to 900–600 BC, with a major expansion of the settlement occurring around 250–400 AD, making it one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the Americas.

The Itza left the Yucatán region in the 13th century and founded the city later known as Tayasal as their capital. They called it Nojpetén, (noj peten, literally "Great Island" in the Itza language). The Spanish called it Tayasal, possibly derived from ta Itza, or "Place of the Itza".

It was here, on the island of Flores on the shore of Lake Petén Itzá, that the last independent Maya state held out against the Spanish conquerors. In 1541, Hernán Cortés came to the island, en route to Honduras, but needed to move on and did not try to conquer it.

The Spanish did not manage to conquer the island until 1697, when they marched in, attacked via boats, and destroyed it. Those who could flee did so, and many Itzá people hid in the jungle for years. From the ruins of Nojpetén arose the modern city of Flores. The modern city can thus be regarded as the second oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the Americas, after Cholula.

Climate
Flores has a tropical monsoon climate (Köppen Am) with year-round high temperatures. It has a lengthy wet season stretching from May to January, and a relatively brief dry season from February to April. As is typical with most monsoon climates, there is also some rainfall in the dry season, albeit significantly lighter. Daytime highs generally hover in the 30 to 33 C range for most of the year, falling slightly to between 27 and 30 C during the winter months. The hottest temperatures are observed just prior to the onset of the wet season, often rising above 35 C.

Transportation
Flores is served by Mundo Maya International Airport. Several international flights land here but most stop first at Guatemala City's La Aurora International Airport. The Island is also very well connected by bus, with many companies running overnight buses to Guatemala City.

Flores in the 19th century
The first photographs ever made from Flores were those taken by engineer Claudio Urrutia in 1897, when he was in charge of the Guatemala-Mexico Border Commission.

title: Flores, Petén