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Talk:Alpena County, Michigan

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Recurring Events and Local Museums, Landmarks and Performing Arts
Alpena Wikipedians:

HELP. I've added two new categories. I need help filling them up, with suitable events, places and links.

Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Stan 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

Northern Michigan article
Additionally, Alpena area local events do not hardly exist in the Northern Michigan page which has its own list.

We need to put some of these there.

7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

Pictures
This article could benefit from a picture or two. Maybe the County courthouse? Can somebody help? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

Need a climate section
I was just to the article on Cadillac, Michigan and note that they have a section that looks this this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 7&6=thirteen (talk • contribs) 20:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Climate
Cadillac experiences a typical northern Michigan climate, undergoing temperate seasonal changes, influenced by the presence of Lake Michigan and the inevitable lake effect. Winters are generally cold with large amounts of snowfall. Summers are warm. The average high temperature in July is 79 °F (26 °C) and the average low is in January, at 10 °F (-12 °C). Summer temperatures can exceed 90 °F (32 °C), and winter temperatures can drop below 0 °F (-18 °C). Average annual rainfall is 32 inches (81 cm), and average annual snowfall is 71 inches (180 cm). Snowfall typically occurs between the months of November and March.

I 've never done one of these. Is there somebody out there who can help. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Stan

Cityscape and Historic Landmarks
Dear fellow Alpena/Michigan Wikipedians:

While I'm non the subject of Cadillac, Michigan, I note that they have two subsections in their article that would really fit into the Alpena, Michigan article.

They are

Cityscape
and

Historic Landmarks
It would be helpful if someone familiar with the lay of the land could do narrative sections like they did in Cadillac, Michigan.

Just a gentle suggestion and a request for assistance. Thanks 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Stan

An image on this page may be deleted
This is an automated message regarding an image used on this page. The image File:Alpena county seal.jpg, found on Alpena County, Michigan, has been nominated for deletion because it does not meet Wikipedia image policy. Please see the image description page for more details. If this message was sent in error (that is, the image is not up for deletion, or was left on the wrong talk page), please contact this bot's operator. STBotI (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Alpena County, Michigan


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Talk:Antrim County, Michigan

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Antrim Township and Omeena Township
Historical places that might fall within this article rather than creating new ones. Here are some references.

Miqrogroove (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * | Organization of Omeena Township in 1850
 * | Omeena Township renamed to Antrim Township in 1853

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

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Talk:Arenac County, Michigan

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Talk:Baraga County, Michigan

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Talk:Barry County, Michigan

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Talk:Bay County, Michigan

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Correction?
I have a correction. There is at least one village in Bay County. The village of Kawkawlin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.65.63 (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Kawkawlin is unincorporated, and listed as such in the article. Asher196 (talk) 20:58, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

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Talk:Benzie County, Michigan

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Talk:Berrien County, Michigan

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Coordinate error
The coordinates need the following fixes:

 * These coordinates point to a spot within Lake Michigan rather than on land.

--173.161.119.117 (talk) 15:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Declined. Per the United States Geological Survey topographical maps more than half of the area of Berrien County is in Lake Michigan. The corners of the county are marked on this map with marker "E" being the coords given in the article. Indeed, to mark the geographic center of the county the coords ought to probably be a bit further offshore. —  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 20:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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Talk:Branch County, Michigan

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Talk:Calhoun County, Michigan

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date of establishment
The Calhoun County website says the county was established in 1829 rather than 1833. BenedictX 09:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The county was set off (that is lines were drawn on a map and given a name) in 1829. But it was attached for administrative purposes first to St. Joseph County and then to Kalamazoo. A separate Calhoun County government was not organized until 1833. I'll see if I can dig up a good source for this. This site gives a good overview. older ≠ wiser 12:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Calhoun County, Michigan


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Talk:Cass County, Michigan

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Talk:Charlevoix County, Michigan

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John Porter and Horton Bay links go to the wrong articles
Added hot internal Wiki links in historical markers. These two show BLUE, but don't go to the right place.7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Stan

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Leading zero addresses
Is it unusual that there are leading zero addresses in this county?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/06002-Pincherry-Rd-Charlevoix-MI-49720/2100790803_zpid/ 64.135.140.174 (talk) 03:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Charlevoix County, Michigan


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Talk:Cheboygan County, Michigan

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Maple Grove Township
User:68.188.159.93 recently added information about a Maple Grove Township in Cheboygan County, Michigan. I'm wondering if there is any documentation in support of this? This lists "Maple Grove" as a civil division of Cheboygan County, but the previous page doesn't list it as a township. And doesn't list anything for Maple Grove. The only mention I came across was an 1928 obituary. There is a Maple Grove cemetery, but it is on the north side of Mullet Lake, no where near Forest Township. older ≠ wiser 15:39, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Need a climate section
I was just to the article on Cadillac, Michigan and note that they have a section that looks this this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 7&6=thirteen (talk • contribs) 20:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Climate
Cadillac experiences a typical northern Michigan climate, undergoing temperate seasonal changes, influenced by the presence of Lake Michigan and the inevitable lake effect. Winters are generally cold with large amounts of snowfall. Summers are warm. The average high temperature in July is 79 °F (26 °C) and the average low is in January, at 10 °F (-12 °C). Summer temperatures can exceed 90 °F (32 °C), and winter temperatures can drop below 0 °F (-18 °C). Average annual rainfall is 32 inches (81 cm), and average annual snowfall is 71 inches (180 cm). Snowfall typically occurs between the months of November and March.

I 've never done one of these. Is there somebody out there who can help. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Stan

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Duncan Township
I'm looking for references for a Duncan Township, mentioned in the 1880 census records, but was not in the 1902 map from historicmapworks.com. So far there is no mention of it in the article. Miqrogroove (talk) 13:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Found 3 references so far and added a new article. Miqrogroove (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

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Talk:Chippewa County, Michigan

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Afeni Shakur

Afeni Shakur Davis (born Alice Faye Williams; January 10, 1947 – May 2, 2016) was an American political activist and member of the Black Panther Party. Shakur was the mother of rapper Tupac Shakur and the executor of his estate. She founded the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation and also served as the CEO of Amaru Entertainment, Inc., a record and film production company she founded.

Early life
Afeni Shakur was born Alice Williams on January 10, 1947, in Lumberton, North Carolina. She had an older sister, Gloria "Glo" Jean. At the age of eleven in 1958, Williams and her sister moved to the South Bronx with their mother, a factory worker.

Williams attended Benjamin Franklin Junior High School in the Bronx, where she demonstrated above average reading ability and her grades qualified her for honors. She wrote for the school newspaper, The Franklin Flash, and in the ninth grade, won a journalism award for which she received congratulations from Mayor Robert F. Wagner. In 1962, Williams passed the qualifying examinations for the Bronx High School of Science and High School of Performing Arts in Manhattan. She chose the latter because she felt performers and actors were free spirited. However, Williams could not afford the school supplies and she felt like an outcast at the school, so she dropped out after one term. She began drifting and became a member of a Bronx street gang called the Disciples.

She briefly worked a postal job, becoming one of the first woman mail carriers in New York.

Activism
After hearing Bobby Seale speak, Williams joined the Black Panther Party when they opened an office in Harlem in 1968. There she met Lumumba Shakur, a Sunni Muslim, whom she married in November 1968. Following their marriage, she changed her name to Afeni Shakur. She became a section leader of the Harlem chapter and a mentor to new members such as Jamal Joseph.

The Panther 21
In April 1969, she and twenty other Black Panthers were arrested and charged with several counts of conspiracy to bomb police stations and other public places in New York. Bail was set at $100,000 for each of the 21 suspects. The Black Panthers decided to raise bail money for Joseph and Shakur first, so those two could work on raising bail for the remaining 19 members. The pre-trial started in February 1970 and the actual trial commenced on September 8, 1970. Charges brought against her and the other members of the Black Panther Party were attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to bomb buildings, and conspiracy. Shakur represented herself at trial, interviewing several witnesses and arguing in court. In her autobiography, Shakur wrote, "I was young. I was arrogant. And I was brilliant in court... because I thought this was the last time I could speak. The last time before they locked me up forever... I was writing my own obituary." Her statements and questioning of the government infiltrators during the trial are credited with helping to expose the FBI's corruption and help save the Panther 21.

One of the people Shakur cross-examined was Ralph White, a "suspect" who had, in fact, infiltrated the Black Panthers while working as an undercover policeman. Shakur had repeatedly denounced White as a cop because he was "a hothead ... too arrogant for a Panther." White testified it was retaliation for refusing to hire her to work in the Harlem Panther office. Shakur got White to admit under oath that he and two other agents had organized most of the unlawful activities. "She asked him if he'd ever seen her carry a gun or kill anyone or bomb anything and he answered no, no, no. Then she asked if he'd seen her doing Panther organizing in a school and a hospital and on the streets and he answered, yes, yes, yes."

She and the others in the "Panther 21" were acquitted in May 1971 after an eight-month trial. Altogether, Afeni Shakur spent two years in the New York Women's House of Detention before being acquitted. While in the House of Detention, Shakur says, she "began relating to the gay sisters in jail beginning to understand their oppression, their anger and the strength in them and in all gay people." After being released, she participated in a workshop organized by the Gay Liberation Front at the Revolutionary People's Constitutional Convention in 1970, and she continued to advocate against homophobia in the Black Panthers.

Later life and death
After Shakur was acquitted, she did not return to the Black Panther Party. On June 16, 1971, she gave birth to her son, Lesane Parish Crooks, who was later renamed Tupac Amaru Shakur. Shakur's marriage fell apart when it was discovered that Lumumba was not the biological father of her son. His biological father is Billy Garland.

In 1975, Shakur married Mutulu Shakur and had their daughter, Sekyiwa. They divorced in 1982. Shakur worked as a paralegal for a decade before descending into a crack cocaine addiction in the early 1980s.

Shakur moved her family to Baltimore, Maryland in 1984. She relocated to Marin County in California to manage her drug use. In 1989, her son left home because of her. The two later reconciled. She overcame her addiction after she moved back to New York in 1991 and started Narcotics Anonymous meetings. Nine months into her recovery program, Tupac sent her $5,000 even though their relationship was strained.

Although Tupac struggled in his relationship with his mother, he paid tribute to her in his song "Dear Mama". In the song, he reflects on his childhood, acknowledges Afeni's troubles with addiction, and expresses his love for her: "And even as a crack fiend mama, you always was a black queen mama, I finally understand for a woman it ain't easy tryin' to raise a man, you always was committed, a poor single mother on welfare tell me how you did it, there's no way I can pay you back, but the plan is to show you that I understand you are appreciated."

After Tupac died in Las Vegas on September 13, 1996, she had him cremated the next day. His close friends, actresses Jada Pinkett and Jasmine Guy, provided emotional support for Shakur and advised her to hire lawyers to sort out Tupac's assets.

In 2004, Shakur released her biography, Afeni Shakur: Evolution of a Revolutionary. In her biography, which was written by Jasmine Guy, Shakur reflected on her childhood experiences and her upbringing as well as her involvement in the Black Panther Party. In the book, she stated that the party educated and directed her to channel her anger. She described her experiences in jail and how together with other inmates, they organized a bail fund to get some of the women out of jail.

Shakur traveled across the U.S., making guest appearances and delivering lectures. On February 6, 2009, she gave the keynote address for Vanderbilt University's Commemoration for Black History Month. She shared with people her experiences and ways in which to overcome loss.

Shakur later married Gust Davis.

Shakur died at a hospital in Greenbrae, California, at around 10:28 p.m. on May 2, 2016, after going into cardiac arrest at her home earlier in the evening; she was 69. Her body was cremated.

Estate of Tupac Shakur
Following her son's death, Tupac's biological father Billy Garland attempted to inherit half of his estate, which Shakur opposed because Garland was an "absentee father who contributed little to Tupac's upbringing." A judge denied his claim.

Exactly one year after Tupac's death, with revenue from his albums released posthumously, Shakur founded the Georgia-based Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation to provide art programs for young people and the Tupac Amaru Shakur Center for the Arts in Stone Mountain, Georgia.

In 1997, she founded Amaru Entertainment, a holding company for all of Tupac's unreleased material. She also launched a fashion clothing line, Makaveli Branded in 2003.

Shakur was reportedly in federal court on July 20, 2007, to file an injunction to prevent Death Row Records from selling any unreleased material from Tupac after the company failed to prove that the unreleased songs were not part of its bankruptcy settlement.

In 2013, Shakur sued Entertainment One claiming they failed to pay Tupac's estate royalties worth seven figures for 2007’s Beginnings: The Lost Tapes. The estate also sued for the ownership of the master recordings for all of Tupac’s unreleased music. A court ruled Entertainment One must pay over six figures for royalties from Shakur's posthumous releases and all the unreleased recordings would go back to the estate. Death Row Records initially owned the rights to his music, which was purchased by Entertainment One in 2006.

In 2014, Shakur helped create the Broadway musical Holler If Ya Hear Me, which featured Tupac's music.

Shakur was not involved in the production of All Eyez on Me, a film based on Tupac's life, stating she felt betrayed by her lawyer, who made the deal with the production company Morgan Creek against her wishes. When she learned of the deal, she fired her lawyer, hired new ones, and fought against the contract and production company. She went to court several times, spending millions of dollars, which she stated led to her selling the Tupac Amaru Shakur Center for the Arts, eventually settling for an undisclosed amount of money.

Shakur set up a trust to control all of Tupac's music rights which assigned music executive Tom Whalley as the executor of his estate following her death in 2016.

title: Afeni Shakur


text:
Mathematics and architecture

Mathematics and architecture are related, since, as with other arts, architects use mathematics for several reasons. Apart from the mathematics needed when engineering buildings, architects use geometry: to define the spatial form of a building; from the Pythagoreans of the sixth century BC onwards, to create forms considered harmonious, and thus to lay out buildings and their surroundings according to mathematical, aesthetic and sometimes religious principles; to decorate buildings with mathematical objects such as tessellations; and to meet environmental goals, such as to minimise wind speeds around the bases of tall buildings.

In ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, India, and the Islamic world, buildings including pyramids, temples, mosques, palaces and mausoleums were laid out with specific proportions for religious reasons. In Islamic architecture, geometric shapes and geometric tiling patterns are used to decorate buildings, both inside and outside. Some Hindu temples have a fractal-like structure where parts resemble the whole, conveying a message about the infinite in Hindu cosmology. In Chinese architecture, the tulou of Fujian province are circular, communal defensive structures. In the twenty-first century, mathematical ornamentation is again being used to cover public buildings.

In Renaissance architecture, symmetry and proportion were deliberately emphasized by architects such as Leon Battista Alberti, Sebastiano Serlio and Andrea Palladio, influenced by Vitruvius's De architectura from ancient Rome and the arithmetic of the Pythagoreans from ancient Greece. At the end of the nineteenth century, Vladimir Shukhov in Russia and Antoni Gaudí in Barcelona pioneered the use of hyperboloid structures; in the Sagrada Família, Gaudí also incorporated hyperbolic paraboloids, tessellations, catenary arches, catenoids, helicoids, and ruled surfaces. In the twentieth century, styles such as modern architecture and Deconstructivism explored different geometries to achieve desired effects. Minimal surfaces have been exploited in tent-like roof coverings as at Denver International Airport, while Richard Buckminster Fuller pioneered the use of the strong thin-shell structures known as geodesic domes.

Connected fields

The architects Michael Ostwald and Kim Williams, considering the relationships between architecture and mathematics, note that the fields as commonly understood might seem to be only weakly connected, since architecture is a profession concerned with the practical matter of making buildings, while mathematics is the pure study of number and other abstract objects. But, they argue, the two are strongly connected, and have been since antiquity. In ancient Rome, Vitruvius described an architect as a man who knew enough of a range of other disciplines, primarily geometry, to enable him to oversee skilled artisans in all the other necessary areas, such as masons and carpenters. The same applied in the Middle Ages, where graduates learnt arithmetic, geometry and aesthetics alongside the basic syllabus of grammar, logic, and rhetoric (the trivium) in elegant halls made by master builders who had guided many craftsmen. A master builder at the top of his profession was given the title of architect or engineer. In the Renaissance, the quadrivium of arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy became an extra syllabus expected of the Renaissance man such as Leon Battista Alberti. Similarly in England, Sir Christopher Wren, known today as an architect, was firstly a noted astronomer.

Williams and Ostwald, further overviewing the interaction of mathematics and architecture since 1500 according to the approach of the German sociologist Theodor Adorno, identify three tendencies among architects, namely: to be revolutionary, introducing wholly new ideas; reactionary, failing to introduce change; or revivalist, actually going backwards. They argue that architects have avoided looking to mathematics for inspiration in revivalist times. This would explain why in revivalist periods, such as the Gothic Revival in 19th century England, architecture had little connection to mathematics. Equally, they note that in reactionary times such as the Italian Mannerism of about 1520 to 1580, or the 17th century Baroque and Palladian movements, mathematics was barely consulted. In contrast, the revolutionary early 20th-century movements such as Futurism and Constructivism actively rejected old ideas, embracing mathematics and leading to Modernist architecture. Towards the end of the 20th century, too, fractal geometry was quickly seized upon by architects, as was aperiodic tiling, to provide interesting and attractive coverings for buildings.

Architects use mathematics for several reasons, leaving aside the necessary use of mathematics in the engineering of buildings. Firstly, they use geometry because it defines the spatial form of a building. Secondly, they use mathematics to design forms that are considered beautiful or harmonious. From the time of the Pythagoreans with their religious philosophy of number, architects in ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Islamic world and the Italian Renaissance have chosen the proportions of the built environment – buildings and their designed surroundings – according to mathematical as well as aesthetic and sometimes religious principles. Thirdly, they may use mathematical objects such as tessellations to decorate buildings. Fourthly, they may use mathematics in the form of computer modelling to meet environmental goals, such as to minimise whirling air currents at the base of tall buildings.

Vitruvius

The influential ancient Roman architect Vitruvius argued that the design of a building such as a temple depends on two qualities, proportion and symmetria. Proportion ensures that each part of a building relates harmoniously to every other part. Symmetria in Vitruvius's usage means something closer to the English term modularity than mirror symmetry, as again it relates to the assembling of (modular) parts into the whole building. In his Basilica at Fano, he uses ratios of small integers, especially the triangular numbers (1, 3, 6, 10, ...) to proportion the structure into (Vitruvian) modules. Thus the Basilica's width to length is 1:2; the aisle around it is as high as it is wide, 1:1; the columns are five feet thick and fifty feet high, 1:10.

Vitruvius named three qualities required of architecture in his De architectura, c. 15 B.C.: firmness, usefulness (or "Commodity" in Henry Wotton's 17th century English), and delight. These can be used as categories for classifying the ways in which mathematics is used in architecture. Firmness encompasses the use of mathematics to ensure a building stands up, hence the mathematical tools used in design and to support construction, for instance to ensure stability and to model performance. Usefulness derives in part from the effective application of mathematics, reasoning about and analysing the spatial and other relationships in a design. Delight is an attribute of the resulting building, resulting from the embodying of mathematical relationships in the building; it includes aesthetic, sensual and intellectual qualities.

The Pantheon
The Pantheon in Rome has survived intact, illustrating classical Roman structure, proportion, and decoration. The main structure is a dome, the apex left open as a circular oculus to let in light; it is fronted by a short colonnade with a triangular pediment. The height to the oculus and the diameter of the interior circle are the same, 43.3 m, so the whole interior would fit exactly within a cube, and the interior could house a sphere of the same diameter. These dimensions make more sense when expressed in ancient Roman units of measurement: The dome spans 150 Roman feet); the oculus is 30 Roman feet in diameter; the doorway is 40 Roman feet high. The Pantheon remains the world's largest unreinforced concrete dome.

Renaissance

The first Renaissance treatise on architecture was Leon Battista Alberti's 1450 De re aedificatoria (On the Art of Building); it became the first printed book on architecture in 1485. It was partly based on Vitruvius's De architectura and, via Nicomachus, Pythagorean arithmetic. Alberti starts with a cube, and derives ratios from it. Thus the diagonal of a face gives the ratio 1:$\sqrt{2}$, while the diameter of the sphere which circumscribes the cube gives 1:$\sqrt{3}$. Alberti also documented Filippo Brunelleschi's discovery of linear perspective, developed to enable the design of buildings which would look beautifully proportioned when viewed from a convenient distance.

The next major text was Sebastiano Serlio's Regole generali d'architettura (General Rules of Architecture); the first volume appeared in Venice in 1537; the 1545 volume (books1 and 2) covered geometry and perspective. Two of Serlio's methods for constructing perspectives were wrong, but this did not stop his work being widely used.

In 1570, Andrea Palladio published the influential I quattro libri dell'architettura (The Four Books of Architecture) in Venice. This widely printed book was largely responsible for spreading the ideas of the Italian Renaissance throughout Europe, assisted by proponents like the English diplomat Henry Wotton with his 1624 The Elements of Architecture. The proportions of each room within the villa were calculated on simple mathematical ratios like 3:4 and 4:5, and the different rooms within the house were interrelated by these ratios. Earlier architects had used these formulas for balancing a single symmetrical facade; however, Palladio's designs related to the whole, usually square, villa. Palladio permitted a range of ratios in the Quattro libri, stating:

"There are seven types of room that are the most beautiful and well proportioned and turn out better: they can be made circular, though these are rare; or square; or their length will equal the diagonal of the square of the breadth; or a square and a third; or a square and a half; or a square and two-thirds; or two squares."

In 1615, Vincenzo Scamozzi published the late Renaissance treatise L'idea dell'architettura universale (The Idea of a Universal Architecture). He attempted to relate the design of cities and buildings to the ideas of Vitruvius and the Pythagoreans, and to the more recent ideas of Palladio.

Nineteenth century

Hyperboloid structures were used starting towards the end of the nineteenth century by Vladimir Shukhov for masts, lighthouses and cooling towers. Their striking shape is both aesthetically interesting and strong, using structural materials economically. Shukhov's first hyperboloidal tower was exhibited in Nizhny Novgorod in 1896.

Twentieth century

The early twentieth century movement Modern architecture, pioneered by Russian Constructivism, used rectilinear Euclidean (also called Cartesian) geometry. In the De Stijl movement, the horizontal and the vertical were seen as constituting the universal. The architectural form consists of putting these two directional tendencies together, using roof planes, wall planes and balconies, which either slide past or intersect each other, as in the 1924 Rietveld Schröder House by Gerrit Rietveld.

Modernist architects were free to make use of curves as well as planes. Charles Holden's 1933 Arnos station has a circular ticket hall in brick with a flat concrete roof. In 1938, the Bauhaus painter László Moholy-Nagy adopted Raoul Heinrich Francé's seven biotechnical elements, namely the crystal, the sphere, the cone, the plane, the (cuboidal) strip, the (cylindrical) rod, and the spiral, as the supposed basic building blocks of architecture inspired by nature.

Le Corbusier proposed an anthropometric scale of proportions in architecture, the Modulor, based on the supposed height of a man. Le Corbusier's 1955 Chapelle Notre-Dame du Haut uses free-form curves not describable in mathematical formulae. The shapes are said to be evocative of natural forms such as the prow of a ship or praying hands. The design is only at the largest scale: there is no hierarchy of detail at smaller scales, and thus no fractal dimension; the same applies to other famous twentieth-century buildings such as the Sydney Opera House, Denver International Airport, and the Guggenheim Museum, Bilbao.

Contemporary architecture, in the opinion of the 90 leading architects who responded to a 2010 World Architecture Survey, is extremely diverse; the best was judged to be Frank Gehry's Guggenheim Museum, Bilbao.

Denver International Airport's terminal building, completed in 1995, has a fabric roof supported as a minimal surface (i.e., its mean curvature is zero) by steel cables. It evokes Colorado's snow-capped mountains and the teepee tents of Native Americans.

The architect Richard Buckminster Fuller is famous for designing strong thin-shell structures known as geodesic domes. The Montréal Biosphère dome is 61 m high; its diameter is 76 m.

Sydney Opera House has a dramatic roof consisting of soaring white vaults, reminiscent of ship's sails; to make them possible to construct using standardized components, the vaults are all composed of triangular sections of spherical shells with the same radius. These have the required uniform curvature in every direction.

The late twentieth century movement Deconstructivism creates deliberate disorder with what Nikos Salingaros in A Theory of Architecture calls random forms of high complexity by using non-parallel walls, superimposed grids and complex 2-D surfaces, as in Frank Gehry's Disney Concert Hall and Guggenheim Museum, Bilbao. Until the twentieth century, architecture students were obliged to have a grounding in mathematics. Salingaros argues that first "overly simplistic, politically-driven" Modernism and then "anti-scientific" Deconstructivism have effectively separated architecture from mathematics. He believes that this "reversal of mathematical values" is harmful, as the "pervasive aesthetic" of non-mathematical architecture trains people "to reject mathematical information in the built environment"; he argues that this has negative effects on society.

Ancient Egypt

The pyramids of ancient Egypt are tombs constructed with mathematical proportions, but which these were, and whether the Pythagorean theorem was used, are debated. The ratio of the slant height to half the base length of the Great Pyramid of Giza is less than 1% from the golden ratio. If this was the design method, it would imply the use of Kepler's triangle (face angle 51°49'), but according to many historians of science, the golden ratio was not known until the time of the Pythagoreans.

The proportions of some pyramids may have also been based on the 3:4:5 triangle (face angle 53°8'), known from the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus (c. 1650–1550 BC); this was first conjectured by historian Moritz Cantor in 1882. It is known that right angles were laid out accurately in ancient Egypt using knotted cords for measurement, that Plutarch recorded in Isis and Osiris (c. 100 AD) that the Egyptians admired the 3:4:5 triangle, and that a scroll from before 1700 BC demonstrated basic square formulas. Historian Roger L. Cooke observes that "It is hard to imagine anyone being interested in such conditions without knowing the Pythagorean theorem," but also notes that no Egyptian text before 300 BC actually mentions the use of the theorem to find the length of a triangle's sides, and that there are simpler ways to construct a right angle. Cooke concludes that Cantor's conjecture remains uncertain; he guesses that the ancient Egyptians probably knew the Pythagorean theorem, but "there is no evidence that they used it to construct right angles."

Ancient India

Vaastu Shastra, the ancient Indian canons of architecture and town planning, employs symmetrical drawings called mandalas. Complex calculations are used to arrive at the dimensions of a building and its components. The designs are intended to integrate architecture with nature, the relative functions of various parts of the structure, and ancient beliefs utilizing geometric patterns (yantra), symmetry and directional alignments. However, early builders may have come upon mathematical proportions by accident. The mathematician Georges Ifrah notes that simple "tricks" with string and stakes can be used to lay out geometric shapes, such as ellipses and right angles.

The mathematics of fractals has been used to show that the reason why existing buildings have universal appeal and are visually satisfying is because they provide the viewer with a sense of scale at different viewing distances. For example, in the tall gopuram gatehouses of Hindu temples such as the Virupaksha Temple at Hampi built in the seventh century, and others such as the Kandariya Mahadev Temple at Khajuraho, the parts and the whole have the same character, with fractal dimension in the range 1.7 to 1.8. The cluster of smaller towers (shikhara, lit. 'mountain') about the tallest, central, tower which represents the holy Mount Kailash, abode of Lord Shiva, depicts the endless repetition of universes in Hindu cosmology. The religious studies scholar William J. Jackson observed of the pattern of towers grouped among smaller towers, themselves grouped among still smaller towers, that:

"The ideal form gracefully artificed suggests the infinite rising levels of existence and consciousness, expanding sizes rising toward transcendence above, and at the same time housing the sacred deep within."

The Meenakshi Amman Temple is a large complex with multiple shrines, with the streets of Madurai laid out concentrically around it according to the shastras. The four gateways are tall towers (gopurams) with fractal-like repetitive structure as at Hampi. The enclosures around each shrine are rectangular and surrounded by high stone walls.

Ancient Greece

Pythagoras (c. 569 – c. 475 B.C.) and his followers, the Pythagoreans, held that "all things are numbers". They observed the harmonies produced by notes with specific small-integer ratios of frequency, and argued that buildings too should be designed with such ratios. The Greek word symmetria originally denoted the harmony of architectural shapes in precise ratios from a building's smallest details right up to its entire design.

The Parthenon is 69.5 m long, 30.9 m wide and 13.7 m high to the cornice. This gives a ratio of width to length of 4:9, and the same for height to width. Putting these together gives height:width:length of 16:36:81, or to the delight of the Pythagoreans 42:62:92. This sets the module as 0.858 m. A 4:9 rectangle can be constructed as three contiguous rectangles with sides in the ratio 3:4. Each half-rectangle is then a convenient 3:4:5 right triangle, enabling the angles and sides to be checked with a suitably knotted rope. The inner area (naos) similarly has 4:9 proportions (21.44 m wide by 48.3 m long); the ratio between the diameter of the outer columns, 1.905 m, and the spacing of their centres, 4.293 m, is also 4:9.

The Parthenon is considered by authors such as John Julius Norwich "the most perfect Doric temple ever built". Its elaborate architectural refinements include "a subtle correspondence between the curvature of the stylobate, the taper of the naos walls and the entasis of the columns". Entasis refers to the subtle diminution in diameter of the columns as they rise. The stylobate is the platform on which the columns stand. As in other classical Greek temples, the platform has a slight parabolic upward curvature to shed rainwater and reinforce the building against earthquakes. The columns might therefore be supposed to lean outwards, but they actually lean slightly inwards so that if they carried on, they would meet about a kilometre and a half above the centre of the building; since they are all the same height, the curvature of the outer stylobate edge is transmitted to the architrave and roof above: "all follow the rule of being built to delicate curves".

The golden ratio was known in 300 B.C., when Euclid described the method of geometric construction. It has been argued that the golden ratio was used in the design of the Parthenon and other ancient Greek buildings, as well as sculptures, paintings, and vases. More recent authors such as Nikos Salingaros, however, doubt all these claims. Experiments by the computer scientist George Markowsky failed to find any preference for the golden rectangle.

Islamic architecture

The historian of Islamic art Antonio Fernandez-Puertas suggests that the Alhambra, like the Great Mosque of Cordoba, was designed using the Hispano-Muslim foot or codo of about 0.62 m. In the palace's Court of the Lions, the proportions follow a series of surds. A rectangle with sides 1and $\sqrt{2}$ has (by Pythagoras's theorem) a diagonal of $\sqrt{2}$, which describes the right triangle made by the sides of the court; the series continues with $\sqrt{3}$ (giving a 1:2 ratio), $\sqrt{4}$ and so on. The decorative patterns are similarly proportioned, $\sqrt{5}$ generating squares inside circles and eight-pointed stars, $\sqrt{2}$ generating six-pointed stars. There is no evidence to support earlier claims that the golden ratio was used in the Alhambra. The Court of the Lions is bracketed by the Hall of Two Sisters and the Hall of the Abencerrajes; a regular hexagon can be drawn from the centres of these two halls and the four inside corners of the Court of the Lions.

The Selimiye Mosque in Edirne, Turkey, was built by Mimar Sinan to provide a space where the mihrab could be seen from anywhere inside the building. The very large central space is accordingly arranged as an octagon, formed by eight enormous pillars, and capped by a circular dome of 31.25 m diameter and 43 m high. The octagon is formed into a square with four semidomes, and externally by four exceptionally tall minarets, 83 m tall. The building's plan is thus a circle, inside an octagon, inside a square.

Mughal architecture

Mughal architecture, as seen in the abandoned imperial city of Fatehpur Sikri and the Taj Mahal complex, has a distinctive mathematical order and a strong aesthetic based on symmetry and harmony.

The Taj Mahal exemplifies Mughal architecture, both representing paradise and displaying the Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan's power through its scale, symmetry and costly decoration. The white marble mausoleum, decorated with pietra dura, the great gate (Darwaza-i rauza), other buildings, the gardens and paths together form a unified hierarchical design. The buildings include a mosque in red sandstone on the west, and an almost identical building, the Jawab or 'answer' on the east to maintain the bilateral symmetry of the complex. The formal charbagh ('fourfold garden') is in four parts, symbolising the four rivers of Paradise, and offering views and reflections of the mausoleum. These are divided in turn into 16 parterres.

The Taj Mahal complex was laid out on a grid, subdivided into smaller grids. The historians of architecture Koch and Barraud agree with the traditional accounts that give the width of the complex as 374 Mughal yards or gaz, the main area being three 374-gaz squares. These were divided in areas like the bazaar and caravanserai into 17-gaz modules; the garden and terraces are in modules of 23 gaz, and are 368 gaz wide (16 x 23). The mausoleum, mosque and guest house are laid out on a grid of 7gaz. Koch and Barraud observe that if an octagon, used repeatedly in the complex, is given sides of 7units, then it has a width of 17 units, which may help to explain the choice of ratios in the complex.

Christian architecture
The Christian patriarchal basilica of Haghia Sophia in Byzantium (now Istanbul), first constructed in 537 (and twice rebuilt), was for a thousand years the largest cathedral ever built. It inspired many later buildings including Sultan Ahmed and other mosques in the city. The Byzantine architecture includes a nave crowned by a circular dome and two half-domes, all of the same diameter (31 m), with a further five smaller half-domes forming an apse and four rounded corners of a vast rectangular interior. This was interpreted by mediaeval architects as representing the mundane below (the square base) and the divine heavens above (the soaring spherical dome). The emperor Justinian used two geometers, Isidore of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles as architects; Isidore compiled the works of Archimedes on solid geometry, and was influenced by him.

The importance of water baptism in Christianity was reflected in the scale of baptistry architecture. The oldest, the Lateran Baptistry in Rome, built in 440, set a trend for octagonal baptistries; the baptismal font inside these buildings was often octagonal, though Italy's largest baptistry, at Pisa, built between 1152 and 1363, is circular, with an octagonal font. It is 54.86 m high, with a diameter of 34.13 m (a ratio of 8:5). Saint Ambrose wrote that fonts and baptistries were octagonal "because on the eighth day, by rising, Christ loosens the bondage of death and receives the dead from their graves." Saint Augustine similarly described the eighth day as "everlasting ... hallowed by the resurrection of Christ". The octagonal Baptistry of Saint John, Florence, built between 1059 and 1128, is one of the oldest buildings in that city, and one of the last in the direct tradition of classical antiquity; it was extremely influential in the subsequent Florentine Renaissance, as major architects including Francesco Talenti, Alberti and Brunelleschi used it as the model of classical architecture.

The number five is used "exuberantly" in the 1721 Pilgrimage Church of St John of Nepomuk at Zelená hora, near Žďár nad Sázavou in the Czech republic, designed by Jan Blažej Santini Aichel. The nave is circular, surrounded by five pairs of columns and five oval domes alternating with ogival apses. The church further has five gates, five chapels, five altars and five stars; a legend claims that when Saint John of Nepomuk was martyred, five stars appeared over his head. The fivefold architecture may also symbolise the five wounds of Christ and the five letters of "Tacui" (Latin: "I kept silence" [about secrets of the confessional]).

Antoni Gaudí used a wide variety of geometric structures, some being minimal surfaces, in the Sagrada Família, Barcelona, started in 1882 (and not completed as of 2023). These include hyperbolic paraboloids and hyperboloids of revolution, tessellations, catenary arches, catenoids, helicoids, and ruled surfaces. This varied mix of geometries is creatively combined in different ways around the church. For example, in the Passion Façade of Sagrada Família, Gaudí assembled stone "branches" in the form of hyperbolic paraboloids, which overlap at their tops (directrices) without, therefore, meeting at a point. In contrast, in the colonnade there are hyperbolic paraboloidal surfaces that smoothly join other structures to form unbounded surfaces. Further, Gaudí exploits natural patterns, themselves mathematical, with columns derived from the shapes of trees, and lintels made from unmodified basalt naturally cracked (by cooling from molten rock) into hexagonal columns.

The 1971 Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Assumption, San Francisco has a saddle roof composed of eight segments of hyperbolic paraboloids, arranged so that the bottom horizontal cross section of the roof is a square and the top cross section is a Christian cross. The building is a square 77.7 m on a side, and 57.9 m high. The 1970 Cathedral of Brasília by Oscar Niemeyer makes a different use of a hyperboloid structure; it is constructed from 16 identical concrete beams, each weighing 90 tonnes, arranged in a circle to form a hyperboloid of revolution, the white beams creating a shape like hands praying to heaven. Only the dome is visible from outside: most of the building is below ground.

Several medieval churches in Scandinavia are circular, including four on the Danish island of Bornholm. One of the oldest of these, Østerlars Church from c. 1160, has a circular nave around a massive circular stone column, pierced with arches and decorated with a fresco. The circular structure has three storeys and was apparently fortified, the top storey having served for defence.

Islamic architectural decoration
Islamic buildings are often decorated with geometric patterns which typically make use of several mathematical tessellations, formed of ceramic tiles (girih, zellige) that may themselves be plain or decorated with stripes. Symmetries such as stars with six, eight, or multiples of eight points are used in Islamic patterns. Some of these are based on the "Khatem Sulemani" or Solomon's seal motif, which is an eight-pointed star made of two squares, one rotated 45 degrees from the other on the same centre. Islamic patterns exploit many of the 17 possible wallpaper groups; as early as 1944, Edith Müller showed that the Alhambra made use of 11 wallpaper groups in its decorations, while in 1986 Branko Grünbaum claimed to have found 13 wallpaper groups in the Alhambra, asserting controversially that the remaining four groups are not found anywhere in Islamic ornament.

Modern architectural decoration
Towards the end of the 20th century, novel mathematical constructs such as fractal geometry and aperiodic tiling were seized upon by architects to provide interesting and attractive coverings for buildings. In 1913, the Modernist architect Adolf Loos had declared that "Ornament is a crime", influencing architectural thinking for the rest of the 20th century. In the 21st century, architects are again starting to explore the use of ornament. 21st century ornamentation is extremely diverse. Henning Larsen's 2011 Harpa Concert and Conference Centre, Reykjavik has what looks like a crystal wall of rock made of large blocks of glass. Foreign Office Architects' 2010 Ravensbourne College, London is tessellated decoratively with 28,000 anodised aluminium tiles in red, white and brown, interlinking circular windows of differing sizes. The tessellation uses three types of tile, an equilateral triangle and two irregular pentagons. Kazumi Kudo's Kanazawa Umimirai Library creates a decorative grid made of small circular blocks of glass set into plain concrete walls.

Europe
The architecture of fortifications evolved from medieval fortresses, which had high masonry walls, to low, symmetrical star forts able to resist artillery bombardment between the mid-fifteenth and nineteenth centuries. The geometry of the star shapes was dictated by the need to avoid dead zones where attacking infantry could shelter from defensive fire; the sides of the projecting points were angled to permit such fire to sweep the ground, and to provide crossfire (from both sides) beyond each projecting point. Well-known architects who designed such defences include Michelangelo, Baldassare Peruzzi, Vincenzo Scamozzi and Sébastien Le Prestre de Vauban.

The architectural historian Siegfried Giedion argued that the star-shaped fortification had a formative influence on the patterning of the Renaissance ideal city: "The Renaissance was hypnotized by one city type which for a century and a half—from Filarete to Scamozzi—was impressed upon all utopian schemes: this is the star-shaped city."

China

In Chinese architecture, the tulou of Fujian province are circular, communal defensive structures with mainly blank walls and a single iron-plated wooden door, some dating back to the sixteenth century. The walls are topped with roofs that slope gently both outwards and inwards, forming a ring. The centre of the circle is an open cobbled courtyard, often with a well, surrounded by timbered galleries up to five stories high.

Environmental goals

Architects may also select the form of a building to meet environmental goals. For example, Foster and Partners' 30 St Mary Axe, London, known as "The Gherkin" for its cucumber-like shape, is a solid of revolution designed using parametric modelling. Its geometry was chosen not purely for aesthetic reasons, but to minimise whirling air currents at its base. Despite the building's apparently curved surface, all the panels of glass forming its skin are flat, except for the lens at the top. Most of the panels are quadrilaterals, as they can be cut from rectangular glass with less wastage than triangular panels.

The traditional yakhchal (ice pit) of Persia functioned as an evaporative cooler. Above ground, the structure had a domed shape, but had a subterranean storage space for ice and sometimes food as well. The subterranean space and the thick heat-resistant construction insulated the storage space year round. The internal space was often further cooled with windcatchers.

title: Mathematics and architecture


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Talk:Clinton County, Michigan

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I removed both East Lansing, Michigan and Grand Ledge, Michigan, which were both listed as being in this county. But I think it is only small tracts adjacent to these cities defined by the census that is in Clinton County. It may be possible that the cities have annexed a small portion of land in Clinton, but I do not think anyone thinks of either city as being in Clinton County. East Lansing is in Ingham County and Grand Ledge is in Eaton County. older ≠ wiser 20:05, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:ClintonCountySeal.jpg
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Talk:Crawford County, Michigan

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History section
The Clarke Historical collection would be a great place to begin research on Crawford County. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

 * The local library would be an excellent place to learn the history of Crawford County. 50.36.168.152 (talk) 16:41, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

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Attribution
Mgrē@sŏn ( Talk ) 19:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Mgrē@sŏn ( Talk ) 23:42, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Crawford County, Michigan
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Crawford County, Michigan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "FAA": From Charlevoix Municipal Airport:. Federal Aviation Administration. effective April 5, 2012. From Cherry Capital Airport:. Federal Aviation Administration. effective November 10, 2016. From Pellston Regional Airport:, effective Apr 27, 2017. From Grayling Army Airfield:. Federal Aviation Administration. effective 17 December 2009.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

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Talk:Delta County, Michigan

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On-orbit photos
Is there a need for all of the photos of the county from space? I would think 1-2 is sufficient, as it's not like the topography/land structure has changed much between the Skylab and ISS photos. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 06:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Because the photos have been on the article since April 2020 and 16 editors other editors changing the article since then (plus one who thanked me to the best of my memory) were fine with it, the WP:ONUS is on someone wishing to remove them. Also, there are many other geographical articles with more than 18 images on the page (there are 16 photos from space, the courthouse, and the census map). It isn't as if the photos from space are displacing other photos. I didn't put the photos in the gallery; but another user recently preferred it instead of a single unobtrusive photomontage with smaller tiles which I had originally used. I was willing to go along with the extended gallery though. The photos have a variety of reasons to be there, or possible uses:

 * The time span for the photos ranges from 1973 to just a little less than two weeks ago. Astronauts photographed it more often than most areas of the United States. This indicates the general importance of the area to either the astronauts or the people on the ground who compile and send suggested target lists to the astronauts. I read about the lists from an astronaut. The office which runs the website requests that everyone who uses their photos on the internet to kindly send them a link. This is so they can monitor how or whether they are used. Back in March I cropped a satellite image into different parts and added the crops on various wikipedia articles, some without a photo. Shortly afterwards, I added an astronaut photo for another large lake nearby which showed it was completely ice-covered in the winter. Then on April 10th, an astronaut went and took photos of either the same things or the larger general area that I had posted the satellite photos to, except for the ones which were already ice free and were not as interesting. I think the timing is curious and could indicate that the use of the photos bearing the commons template for NASA astronaut photography is monitored (such as with a watchlist) by the same office which runs the Gateway to Astronaut Photography website and may have influenced the target list provided to the ISS. A watchlist could have picked up the astronaut photo and then someone in an office looked at the recent satellite photos which I had cropped. This is now the second occasion I think something like this has happened with the ISS astronauts. If they really are taking pictures for wikipedia it makes sense to show gratitude by using them.
 * Multiple images for the same thing quickly indicates to the viewer that north is not necessarily oriented up. Even if this is indicated by a caption it could be missed.
 * If you look at the map in the top right corner, see how Wisconsin is carved out? This makes it hard to identify the location of the county, since it matches with Wisconsin's Door Peninsula like a puzzle piece. Out of them, four are panned out views which show this. A reader seeing both the map at the top and an image should be able to recognize this, which will help in understanding this.
 * Two of the photos are at night, which is helpful in depicting the extent of urbanization at Escabana and Gladstone compared to the rest of the county.
 * Six of the photos show only parts of the county. If a reader clicks on the image, he or she will see the enlarged media viewer version and can access the extended caption showing what is depicted. This is significant because there are two peninsulas, two bays, and also the area off to the west with Escabana and Gladstone. (It should have another photo centered on just Escabana.)
 * Five of the photos indicate the melting and breakup of ice. During many years in this region there are incidents where people fishing on the ice get stuck on a newly broken floe and must be rescued. At times people have drowned due to hazards on the ice. The breakup of ice is of interest to boaters (notice which areas are ice-free earlier in the spring) and also of interest to those who want to fish, but don't want to get stuck. The pattern of ice breakup is best shown by pictures, even from these four you can see which areas are more hazardous than others. The hazard in general is obvious from the pictures and it indicates the need to seek reliable, off-wiki information about it. Also, the February 22, 2014 photo was taken during a brief moment in a series with other photos nearby, one which was just south of the county, but was listed as the official 2014 Image of the Day. This is because it documents the breakup of ice and the development of stringers. Because of how the currents work coming out of Green Bay and into Lake Michigan, the stringers are scientifically interesting.
 * One of the photos demonstrates a strong sunglint effect that is not often seen on close-up astronaut photos. Notice that the photo was taken during the morning, and to the east. This is interesting just in how it compares to the rest, and that it is an effect not often seen from space.
 * Having a larger number of photos indicates the progression of the seasons and how this changes the landscape. The only months omitted are December, July, October, and September. If there were good photos for these, I would probably add them and arrange them by month instead of by year. As a group the photos document change in the landscape rather than just repeating the landscape again and again. Only two of the photos are from the same day, and they are close ups of the two peninsulas. The most common month is June--out of the four known for sure to be from June, two photos show the two peninsulas, one shows Little Bay de Noc, and the other one has the sunglint; they don't repeat each other. Since it always changes it isn't the same picture twice.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * So in other words, they're pretty and you like them, so they should stay. Seriously, none of this is discussed in the text of the article, so much of what is written above in the bullet points doesn't really matter. If those topics were ever added to the article, then the photos could be added back to help illustrate them. The whole first bullet point is irrelevant speculation, and I'd like to see some hard sources for that. I'm in favor of removing all but one photo and calling it a day until the prose in the article might support additional imagery.  Imzadi 1979  →   18:22, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Please assume good faith, Imzadi1979.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Several of the photos focus more on Wisconsin and Door County. Clicking on them, there are a handful that don't really show Delta County at all because Michigan is obscured in cloud cover, or Michigan is at the very edge of the image. At a minimum, those need to be removed so that what remains has Delta County, or at least Michigan, as a subject. Then we can discuss what's left to see if/how they contribute to the encyclopedic value of the article.  Imzadi 1979  →   18:33, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I swapped out one photo with another one taken seconds later so that Delta County is better centered. The next photo after it in the series shows the brightening of dawn which obscures the city lights. Delta County is larger than it seems because it includes a water area too, and sometimes snow can resemble clouds from a thumbnail. Even cloud cover (within some limits) has some informational value pertaining to the sort of climate in the area; sometimes clouds form only over land on calm days, on other days they form both over water and land. The 1997 photo shows small clouds only forming over land, but not water. I had reservations about the first one from 1973 because of the cloud which covers the western part of the county, but it does not cover the whole of either peninsula, and it is currently the oldest useable photo of the sort on commons. The county was photographed on a cloud-free day in the winter during Apollo 16, but I am currently attempting to get the file onto commons. It may take some weeks because it requires a Phabricator request; the photo shows much of the United States and is over one gigabyte in size; I am hoping they can alter the settings or software somehow so it can be uploaded directly. I am in favor of replacing the 1973 photo with a crop of the Apollo 16 photo eventually.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:07, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Just taking a wider view of U.S. county articles as a whole, it's truly unusual to include any pictures of a region from space. What makes Delta County so special that it needs to have 14 pictures?  Is it the distinctive coastline?  Would you support adding 14 pictures from space to, say, Ida County, Iowa?  How is putting these pictures in the article any different than putting them in a category on Commons and linking to it?  What benefit do our readers get? –Fredddie™ 22:33, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

 * I went and added one for Ida County. The photo makes sense from the thumbnail if you are from the area and can pick out the relative locations of the nearby cities from memory. From MediaViewer you can pick out the interstates, so it isn't that bad for a larger number of readers. Many more people have driven on I-29 and I-80 than have driven through Ida County, so a picture showing where Ida County is relative to the interstates and memorable exit signs should help them relate to the county. Why did astronauts take so many pictures of Delta County? Sometimes the targets are based off of what is being studied. Searching around, it seems people were studying Ice in northern Green Bay (also this link)and Lake Michigan in general (page 9). Starting with the Landsat program in the 70s it seems that there were regular NOAA papers dealing with the ice over the decades. More recently there has been some literature about climate change and the ice in the bay. There is other literature I didn't link to.

 * I wouldn't object to more photos for Ida County. Of course they wouldn't be looking at lake ice and the differences in cloud formation on land compared to water. Instead a series for the county could depict the ordinary seasonal changes and a comparison of good versus drought years would be enough. A close-up depicting center-pivot irrigation would also be nice. Since astronauts might not be taking enough pictures, a motivated editor might have to use satellite coverage from Earth Explorer to fill in gaps in the Gateway to Astronaut Photography.

 * I would gladly "barter" the photo of the Stonington Peninsula for anyone who wants to create an article about it and put the photo on that article instead of this one. And if the gallery is too intrusive, the remaining photos could go back into a photomontage although Imzadi prefers the gallery. An overall consensus could form for the individual articles such as Gladstone, Michigan, Little Bay de Noc, Big Bay de Noc, and Garden Peninsula to only use photos not repeated on this article since they are related-topic articles. If others prefer it that way and want to change out some of the other photos to the other locations' articles I will go along. And that way readers would not encounter the same photos twice which isn't the greatest but sometimes unavoidable.

 * As for the readers right now, the ones who live in the area would probably be interested in the photos and click on them to read the more extended captions which most have from Commons. As general interest goes, the "From space" section is more interesting than the demographics and politics sections, except once every four years when the politics section becomes more interesting. The "From space" section is probably more interesting to younger readers who are more curious about such things, while adults probably are more interested in "history" and the lists of communities and adjacent counties. People who don't care about photos but are looking for specific information such as major communities or where it is on a map won't scroll to the bottom anyway so they wouldn't even notice that they are there. Overall the photos from space are a rephotography series covering 50 years of change; this should raise questions and pique interest from readers with the time and energy to elucidate their questions.

 * The Gateway to Astronaut photography website could be a good resource for many geo-articles which don't have much on them, especially less populated areas where less material is already on commons or is potentially transferable from flickr. The main obstacle against this is that a majority of the U.S. individuals making edits on this website are located in the northeast and the west coasts. They probably lack familiarity with most geographical features which allow people to identify where the photo is located. Because most photos on the Gateway website do not have location information embedded into them, the photos must be searched by the location of the ISS at the second the photo was taken. (I was lucky for Ida County that a photo with coordinates for the target was already cataloged.) Because astronauts often take photos at an angle rather than straight up and down like earth observation satellites, the subject of the pictures may be hundreds of miles away from the location directly underneath where the ISS was. So finding more Ida County photos to illustrate changes in the landscape may entail combing through much of Iowa and adjacent states. Some people who live in Ida County or near it probably could do it, but how many of them edit wikipedia?--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:03, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * And? Typing out a wall of text doesn't make you more right. I think  said it correctly, "...they're pretty and you like them, so they should stay."  It's ok to just say that. –Fredddie™ 05:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see the case for one image to illustrate the overall geography of the county, but an entire gallery is excessive. If they don't add obvious value to the reader, they aren't worth including in the article.  Sounder Bruce  04:35, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The value is evident in the detailed captions which many of the images have on Commons; the captions show up on MediaViewer. It worked better as a photo montage since there weren't gallery captions appearing over the Commons caption in MediaViewer. Since you commented, an IP editor removed the section and placed one of them back in the article. I am not sure why that one was chosen to be kept, there are more recent images of better quality.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Delta County, Michigan