text:
Wiktionary:Grease pit/2016/November

What's the deal with Category:English terms borrowed from Old French?
A lot of entries in this category use which appears to be inappropriate since many of those words weren't borrowed directly from Old French into Modern English, but inherited from Middle English. Should we correct all those instances of inappropriate uses of the template, and ultimately delete the category? ばかFumiko￥talk 06:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * When we have chains of derivation, sometimes going back to unattested languages, we usually categorize the entry into each language in the chain. I look at the situation and say that the problem is that for many of these the Middle English term is missing, possibly because it is unattested or not inferred in a scholarly source. For others the Middle English term may have a spelling identical to one of the Modern English spellings. I don't see why we would want to delete the category reflecting one of the links in the chain. DCDuring TALK 10:55, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've been considering this problem more, and I think it may actually be more appropriate to call them borrowings even if they were borrowed into an earlier stage of the language. —CodeCat 13:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've got it!!! We should redirect the categorization to Category:English terms derived from Old French, which doesn't have the implication of being limited to the etymon in the immediately preceding language. DCDuring TALK 14:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Isn't that the currently accepted practice, i.e. to use for indirect borrowings? If you mean literal redirection, then that's not a good idea. --WikiTiki89 14:09, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Middle English is English, though. Per CodeCat. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:13, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * To be fair, terms borrowed into PIE would also be considered borrowings into English. Because PIE eventually became English. —CodeCat 12:19, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "Middle English is English, though. Per CodeCat." No, it's not, because we're talking about strict technicality here regarding the use of . If a term was borrowed into Middle English, it does not qualify for using . ばかFumiko￥talk 03:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Only by you, apparently. Following your reasoning to its conclusion, a single borrowing potentially counts as a borrowing into hundreds of languages, and there's no such thing as a borrowing between related languages . Chuck Entz (talk) 04:12, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I need to think some more about that second part. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:38, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but am I the only who misunderstood this instruction?
 * "This template is intended specifically for loanwords that were borrowed during the time the borrowing language was spoken (periods as defined by scholarly consensus and/or Wiktionary's own definitions). It should not be used for terms that were borrowed at an earlier stage, which should use.
 * For example, if English has a word that was borrowed from Anglo-Norman French in the 12th century, then the Modern English entry would not use, because the word was not borrowed in modern English times: English as defined on Wiktionary begins at the year 1500, so the 12th century does not fall under the modern English period, it falls under Middle English. The Middle English entry for that word would use the template." ばかFumiko￥talk 05:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand that. My thought is that we should change that, so that terms borrowed into English, Middle English, Old English, Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are all considered to be borrowings in English. My reasoning is that it makes a lot of sense to consider for example a loan, because it's obviously not a native word inherited from time immemorial. —CodeCat 13:18, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Stack overflow error at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/hierarchy and Module:category tree/poscatboiler/hierarchy/documentation
Any idea what's going on here? These showed up in CAT:E about a week ago. As far as I could tell at the time, there were no recent edits to either of the above, Module:hierarchy nor to Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data, and only a single innocuous edit to any Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data submodule. Of course, with the use of recursion on the contents of all of those submodules at once, it might not take much. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:15, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Do the lists look as they did before?--Dixtosa (talk) 07:38, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see such an error message now. Could this have been a transitory effect of today's multiple changes to Module:hierarchy? If those edits not visible to you, I wonder why. DCDuring TALK  14:15, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Since those edits were after and in response to my post above, there's no reason to wonder why the state of things described in that post doesn't reflect them. I have no idea how the output of Module:category tree/poscatboiler/hierarchy was supposed to have looked before, but it no longer has a stack overflow error, which is a big improvement. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:05, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * My mistake. I was looking at UTC times in history and EST on this page. DCDuring TALK 18:07, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

template:lb problem
At [[pass]] This diff by User:ReidAA in December 2014 is one that introduced "heading" as second argument of. It seems to occur with senses that have subsenses. There seem to be some 60 entries with this.

Can anyone figure out what the intent was? Did something in or its supporting modules change? DCDuring TALK 19:37, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it means something like "these subsenses have the following characteristic in common". I personally feel this is misuse of subsensing. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:40, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think I remember now. Thanks. I believe this is intended to mimic some of the groupings of definitions in dictionaries such as MWOnline. While some have explicit senses under which the subsenses are grouped, others do not, probably because although they are clearly related, they defy any wording that encompasses all the subsenses. It was thought that we needed this as a way to have the senseless-subsenses structure.
 * It seems wrong as implemented. A gloss without the "heading" label would be sufficient. If no suitable wording can be found, then perhaps a non-gloss definition can be. If not then we can just eliminate the subsense grouping.
 * The 60 entries can be manually reviewed then to make sure there is a sensible gloss or non-gloss definition. DCDuring TALK 19:54, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

probo no!
At probo, the references for the Italian section are left dangling at the end of the Spanish section. I can't remember how to get it placed at the end of the Italian, I tried using some Wikipedia-style references tags, but it hasn't worked. --Derrib9 (talk) 14:33, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. The slash comes after the word "references" and before the greater-than sign, unless you want to open and close the "references" tag separately. Thus either

<references/> or <references> ... </references> but since nothing ever needs to be enclosed within the "references" tag, the first option is simpler. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:53, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Yep, that's the one. Cheers, Angry Bird --Derrib9 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Help creating templates
I have been struggling with creating a headword-line template for Chichewa nouns. I'd really appreciate it if someone more technically adept could make it for me, once I give them the rules for plural generation. (I'd also like someone to help me create an IPA module, but that's not as pressing.) —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:06, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, what are the rules? DTLHS (talk) 04:15, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. I've not started typing up the rules yet; I'll put them on your talk-page to avoid cluttering the GP more, if that's okay. The rules for the IPA module are here, and I can write up testcases as soon as they are needed. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:25, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Recent searches for non-existent entries
Would this be possible? So that we could see what people have searched for before. Also, adding a conspicuous box to allow the user to submit the word for creation after searching for a nonexistent title - "Hey, it looks like you entered a word in the Latin / Cyrillic / Devanagari / Hangul / Han script, which has not yet been created. Your query has been recorded OR Please click here to submit it to the request list (allowing the user to add comments too)."

Besides, how about a reverse transcription / transliteration search? It can be done via reverse transliteration modules, some of which have been written, such as Module:mnc-Latn-translit and Module:pi-Latn-translit. Alternatively, it could be done via regularly updated transcription/transliteration-word lists. For example, I have a list of currently generated Pinyins (and the pages they are found on) from multisyllabic Chinese entries of en.wikt (45,000+), and it could be parsed when Pinyin is selected as the type of transcription/transliteration used as input. Wyang (talk) 11:07, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I can foresee one problem: filtering out searches that are misspelt, or have typos. Otherwise I'm in favour. DonnanZ (talk) 11:16, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I like the reverse search idea. We could avoid the need for out-of-sync romanization entries and more easily search for entries without romanization entries. I wonder if Wikimedia Labs + JavaScript could be used to do this. The request button would also be pretty handy (although I wonder if it will lead to spam from unregistered users...). —suzukaze (t・c) 11:27, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Provided that the searching script is specified during the search and there is a bijection between the set of transliterations and a set of words in the original script it can easily be done with JS only. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 11:58, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That's great. What about using reverse transliteration modules? This is the easier option for scripts with good bidirectional transliteration faithfulness, such as Devanagari. Can the searched transcription / transliteration be passed to the module for reverse transliteration, and the output be used for searching? And what about the ways in which the reverse search function could be added to the existing search - perhaps an "Advanced Search" next to the search icon (would it be possible?). Wyang (talk) 12:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Modules can be used (using API:ExpandTemplates) but that will require one more API request per keypress.
 * The easiest way to put the functionality here is to use a separate search field.
 * One clarification: I assumed autocomplete was meant to be possible without it is even easier. --Dixtosa (talk) 11:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, check out this mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector. I wonder why we do not have it installed while other wiktionaries have. --Dixtosa (talk) 11:58, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Didn't know about the UniversalLanguageSelector tool before - it seems to have been installed on en.wikt (?), accessable via Languages on the left and in the search bar as a small keyboard icon. I tested using Tibetan and Devanagari and it is working well. It is a good way to allow people familiar with the script to search for a term, but unfortunately this doesn't support many other scripts (such as Japanese kana, Korean Hangul, Vietnamese Quoc Ngu), and the function may need to be made more conspicuous. Another way to give non-Latin script support is to develop a separate search field, so that people not fully familiar with the script and the native keyboard can search by romanisations. I have no clue how to code for the search functionality and incorporate it into the layout, but I can help developing the reverse transliteration modules (such as for Sanskrit, Japanese (partially available in Module:ja#lua)) and transcription data modules (for Chinese pinyin). Wyang (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I do not think the first idea can be done with out facilities only. You can request the feature at 2016 Community Wishlist Survey. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 11:58, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect character in Cyrillic edit tools
In the Cyrillic edit tools, the characters Ć ć appear, but these are actually Latin letters. They should be replaced with their Cyrillic equivalents. —CodeCat 15:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * So, you want them to be replaced with С́ с́ in MediaWiki:Edittools? Just checking that that's the right encoding. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:26, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. —CodeCat 00:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The small letter must be с́, not с. See --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:58, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Done, don't change it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:00, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I removed the accent from Metaknowledge's post so I could see if the underlying letter was the right one, and forgot to undo it. I put it back now. —CodeCat 01:02, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's OK. I recommend downloading SC Unipad (free). You can decompile or convert characters (such as diacritics, etc) and see a lot of info about them. You can also enter a big variety of characters from different scripts. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:08, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I use Linux. —CodeCat 01:21, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You can use Windows emulators on Linux.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:28, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there are tools available for Linux as well. I wrote my own python script for this, it was pretty easy. --WikiTiki89 15:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Problem with diacritic removal on sútra
The Cyrillic equivalent of this term is с́утра, which has the letter с with a combining diacritic. The diacritic is removed however, so that the link points to сутра, which is the wrong entry. —CodeCat 15:25, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to make entry_name patterns capture vowel + diacritic combinations but leave с́ alone? Module:languages/data2 seems to replace both 'Ȁ' and dbreve, isn't this reduntant? Crom daba (talk) 15:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In Cyrillic, а̏ is made out of two characters. Each character is replaced individually. The same applies for acute accents too. So the code is really just removing the diacritic as a separate character. —CodeCat 15:50, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Category:en:Philanthropy
Could someone please create "Category:en:Philanthropy" properly? I have no idea how to do this. — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Philanthropy would have to be added at Module:category tree/topic cat/data to one or more of the existing topics at Category:List of topics. Where would it be appropriate? To judge from the categories that Wikipedia's w:Category:Philanthropy belongs to, I'd say CAT:Ethics, CAT:Economics, and CAT:Political science as a first guess. What do you think? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:20, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think "Economics" and "Ethics" are suitable, but am doubtful about "Political science". Is there a way to view the entire category tree? — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not actually a tree, which makes it rather complicated to view. —CodeCat 20:08, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good project for someone with the right kind of technical talent: rendering the category tree with collapsible levels of detail. Have any other wikis done it? WP, de.WP, de.wikt, ....? DCDuring TALK 23:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * We already have a module to make a tree of languages (and those actually are a tree). The difficulty is with categories is that they're not a tree and can even loop back on themselves. A category could be a subcategory of itself, directly or indirectly. —CodeCat 00:02, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The item in question does seem to be in a topical hierarchy. Even if the hierarchy is "impure", there is almost certainly a main hierarchy with accessory elements (loops).
 * The important thing is to demystify category structure and allow more contributions to and use of the categories in a consistent manner. If an active contributor is having trouble or even just finding it not worthwhile to research, clearly there is a failure in the system. DCDuring TALK 02:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry. I missed the point of the current system. It is supposed to force users to come begging to their betters for help if they don't chose to master our baroque template/module systems, lest they start treating this thing like some kind of wiki. DCDuring TALK 02:11, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * De beste stuurlui staan aan wal. —CodeCat 02:22, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Google Translate says: "Best mates are ashore". Ok I guess.

Anyway, about a decade ago, we had, a template in which we would fill a lot of parameters for each category. Category:es:Animals had this specific code:

I think our current approach is better than, at least. If there are any other ideas, I'd like to hear them. (though I know some issues have been discussed multiple times, like the jargon/subject distinction) If we used or just plain wikitext, apparently it would be a pain to keep our 565 "Category: :Animals" categories consistent. I'm assuming that consistency is desirable. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:29, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a Dutch proverb which we do, in fact, have an entry for. Here's a discussion of the best cultural translations into English. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 03:42, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Being a critical user is hard work, too, especially going against a mindset as insular and non-user-oriented as the one prevailing here. DCDuring TALK 13:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * DCDuring, actually I like the idea that every addition to the hierarchy is discussed, because one bad naming can proliferate causing many articles to to be changed (for example Category:Georgia (State) where state can be ambiguous). So I would even impose a protection to the modules allowing only administrators to edit them on a per-request basis. If we were to look through the hierarchy we would find many controversial categories/namings. Category:Wines and Category:Wine is one good example. or I am just making a bid deal out of it. Just like you are. Een storm in een glas water ya know... --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 05:44, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * How many of them have been discussed? Or is it just those that came after the tablets were brought down from the mountain. Whose additions have been discussed?
 * There are some simple rules for our category names that we seem to follow, mostly implicitly: eg, "plural names for categories of coordinate terms", "not too long", "not too specialized", "visible categories preferably fitting in a hierarchy", "language-specific categories grammar, orthography, etc. in own subsystem". There are plenty of areas in which a little room for purpose-built categories were, are, and would be appropriate (probably would have been, too). DCDuring TALK 13:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think our topical category tree was properly discussed or designed, it's a mess. I may choose to be optimistic and believe that they are a work in progress and could go in a better direction sometime, though. I do love the fact that we have a templated/Luacized system in which if you change the description and categorization of "Category:??:Animals", it reflects automatically in all language versions.
 * I take DCDuring's point that we are not having a system in which new categories require to be discussed before they are created, because people with Lua skills are able to create new categories at will. To be fair, editing the category tree is not too hard. DCDuring, don't you know how to use the system yet? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to keep a beginner's mind with respect to some parts of our system. My ignorance qualifies me better to guess how some newer, less technical users might view that system. DCDuring TALK 02:30, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Sooo ... are we having a discussion on whether "Category:en:Philanthropy" should be created? It seems to already be in use. — SMUconlaw (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's in use, but has an invalid label. I'm willing to create a topic Philanthropy for the tree that isn't a tree, but only if doing so doesn't result in Drama. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Swahili monosyllabic verbs
Swahili monosyllabic verbs such as, , retain the infinitive prefix  in some tenses to avoid stressing the tense prefix. The affirmative conjugation template sw-conj-aff does something odd with the progressive tense: the singular forms have infinitive -ku- but the plural forms lack them. I don't believe this is right, from what I know about Swahili, but I don't know enough to be sure whether this tense should have -ku- across the board or not. And I certainly don't know how to change a template. --Hiztegilari (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Swahili conjugation templates are really, really crappy. It's been a long-term goal of mine to completely retrofit them; they need to be corrected and Luacised, and I'm not fully capable of that myself. Having just gotten quite a lot of help from DTLHS, I'm hesitant to bother him again. The truth is, we need a standard format that cover enough (but not too much) that we can modify for other Bantu languages., maybe? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:44, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Zulu table we currently have isn't much better. The big issue is that there's simply too many forms to list. There's already a lot of potential forms if you include the subject concord, but when you start adding object concords as well, the number of forms explodes. With 15 possible subject and object concords, you end up with 225+ forms in one table, which is way too much and risks losing the useful information among the noise. —CodeCat 18:53, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of autocollapsed tables within the table. But another way of doing it is to have explicitly labelled exemplar paradigms (e.g. showing object concords only for the simple present tense and putting a note at the bottom that says that they can be inserted with all the other paradigms in the table. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That's ok in theory, but at least in Zulu the concords can interact with the surrounding sounds, in particular vowel coalescence between the concord and the following verb stem. So it's not as simple as "insert concord here". —CodeCat 19:08, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's common in Bantu languages. I've considered the idea of putting those rules at the bottom, too, but it's messy. I think that argues for showing more combinations, by means of autocollapsed tables-within-tables. Do you want to try that idea, or do you have a better idea? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:34, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Family request
Please create the family: m["bnt-noe"] = { canonicalName = "Northeast Bantu", family = "bnt", } And add the following codes to it: bou dig doe ebu guz gwr ikz jit ked ki kiv kiz ksb kuj kya lg luy myx nim now nym nyn nyo pbr rag reg rim ruf rw suk suw sw swb sxb ttj vun wni zak zdj ziw

Also create the following family: m["bnt-sou"] = { canonicalName = "Southern Bantu", family = "bnt", } And add these languages: loz nso rng st tn ts tsc two ve vmw

And also the family. —CodeCat 22:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Southern Bantu is a sure thing, but Northeast Bantu not so much. Considering that it is not completely agreed upon and in any case, no accepted protolanguage has been reconstructed, I'm really not sure what the value of adding it is. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * What about a smaller subset like Great Lakes or Northeast Coast? —CodeCat 23:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Both of those are definitely valid. PNEC has been reconstructed, too; I'm not aware of systematic Proto-Great Lakes reconstructions, but I'll have to check the literature. Incidentally, Proto-Sabaki has been reconstructed as well (no surprise there, considering how heavily Swahili has been studied).

Permissions Request
Hi I know it is probably a bit rude for me to ask, and I apologise for the broad ; but would it be possible for me to be whitelisted for template editing using the new permissions level? I get requests for bot tasks which are really more naturally done with protected modules, and I have been annoying the administrators too much with third hand module edit requests. I am also thinking of looking for a way to include phonetic transcriptions in Module:links in a language agnostic way. I don't plan to do anything permanent without the agreement of all interested parties at a minimum, and possibly with a vote, if any interested party would like one in addition. But I would like access to the module to be able to test draft functionality. My planned edits to Module:links will be a more concrete variant of Chuck Entz's most recent proposal for a parallel transcription system; but I would like to defer discussion of that topic for the time being. Instead, I will start a new thread when I have a draft module (or set of modules), which I will be able to summarise in more concrete language. Thanks, Isomorphyc (talk) 16:10, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Edit: Also pinging. Isomorphyc (talk) 16:14, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. (my flood flag is active so my message won't appear in the recent changes) Have fun editing templates and modules! --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:16, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for being so fast! Isomorphyc (talk)

 * I hope this serves to encourage people other than me to nominate template editors... —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:07, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Vote not showing up
Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2016-11/User:Gamren for admin is not listed at Votes/Active and I dunno how to do it. I swear creating votes used to be easier, didn't it? Please fix if you can. Equinox ◑ 18:56, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not going to show up magically. You have to add it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:58, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * When was it easier? Before, you had to add it in Votes; now you have to add it in Votes/Active. Incidentally, back then you would have to scroll the votes page to know what are the current votes, which were not organized by end date. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:04, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I tried adding it but got the red broken template text. I thought the colon in the page title might be messing it up. I dunno, nothing ever works. Equinox ◑ 03:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Very little on the technical side here is forgiving. Users seem to be divided into categories like: developers, power users (ie, readers of templates and modules), documentation readers, other contributors, all others. Only the first two are effectively served. DCDuring TALK 18:01, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Going to look at for documentation is no help. Such subordinate templates should have a documentation page that links to a page with either substantive documentation or hand-holding templates that enable contributing users to do things like start a vote. In this case WT:Votes would fit the bill.
 * All that developers need to do is think about more classes of users than their own. OTOH, if the intent is to limit vote creation to votes created by worthies without it looking as if that were the intent or to provide a playpen, the current system is fine. DCDuring TALK 18:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Find requests
How can I find all requests for ety, or all requests for pron? In general, if I want to find a category with requests in it, where do I start? Equinox ◑ 03:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Category:Entry maintenance subcategories by language, perhaps? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:02, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Favicon on Mozilla Firefox search
Hello. I added the English Wiktionary as a search engine on my Mozilla Firefox secondary (search) bar. But it has not it's own icon, making it basically the same as any other search engine that has no icon. Couldn't you people fix this, so that the Wiktionary is added with it's favicon? Thanks!--200.223.199.146 10:36, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Internet slang list
If you search for "internet slang", the page Appendix:English internet slang doesn't show in the search results. I think it would be very good to make it show as the first result in that search. Ark25 (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Language data edit
Please add the following to : sort_key = { from = {"[àá]", "[èé]", "[ìí]", "[òó]", "[ùú]", "[ǹń]", "ɪ", "ʊ" , ACUTE, GRAVE}, to  = {"a"  , "e"   , "i2"  , "o"   , "u2"  , "n"   , "i1", "u1"}}, —CodeCat 17:35, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * — JohnC5 17:48, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Session data error on Mozilla Firefox
I have been receiving this error for a few days now. Can't use Firefox any more on any computer:

'''Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, try logging out and logging back in.'''.

I have tried to log out and log back in. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:33, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've always gotten that when I leave an edit window open for a long time and then click "save changes". It can be prevented by clicking "show preview" first, then "save changes". I don't usually bother with that, because I've found that simply clicking "save changes" a second time will work like it should have worked the first time. Of course, if you get this every time, even after a minute or two, it may not be the same thing. Have you done anything with the settings for how long to keep cookies or browser history or the like? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:02, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Trying clearing your cache and cookies. --WikiTiki89 04:12, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I get it all the time now, no matter how small and quick an edit is. Cleared cache and cookies. Wiktionary has been forcing me to reset my short and "unsafe" password. I wonder if it has to do with that. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:25, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's that. I've been ignoring that too and have not had this problem (but I use Google Chrome). --WikiTiki89 16:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Is your FF latest? Have you tried using Chrome?--Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 05:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * My Firefox is up-to-date. I have my favourite plugins on Firefox, which are unavailable or bad on Chrome. I don't like the way browsing history works on Chrome either. I can find sites I often go to much faster on Firefox. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Try checking that your system time is correct (if not then fix it, and then clear your cache and cookies again). --WikiTiki89 16:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have this problem as well. —CodeCat 18:58, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you guys using any privacy/password add-ons? This seems like it has to be a cache/cookie issue, and sometimes add-ons handle such things. - TheDaveRoss 19:42, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't. I have no system time problem either. Both my work and home computers are affected - not able to save anything in Wiktionary using Firefox. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Could it be your IP provider or interaction between FF and the IPP? DCDuring TALK 11:59, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think this could be the problem. I use different providers at home and at work. CodeCat seems to have the same problem at the same time. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I created a Phabricator bug after checking in with the IRC crew. Feel free to add to the bug if I missed anything. - TheDaveRoss 14:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * And then found out there was another ticket already in progress, follow this ticket instead. - TheDaveRoss 14:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * If you have cleared cookies and are still having issues, there has been a request that you capture the header data for edits which cause this error. Also, if you could create a step-by-step process which documents what you do which results in the error message. - TheDaveRoss 14:25, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Sandbox module error
When editing Wiktionary:Sandbox the following error message is displayed:- "Module error: The function "list='"`UNIQ--item-0--QINU`"'" does not exist.". This does not affect editing of the sandbox. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:31, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * : The edit text of Sandbox is unfortunately located in Template:Sandbox, although they are not related (the latter is a sandbox for templates). Therefore, the module error is in Template:Sandbox. : Do you have any way to remove the edit text? --kc_kennylau (talk) 16:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * . WT:Sandbox was invoking Module:sandbox, which is a module for test purposes. So I removed the module from that page. (but feel free to readd the module if someone was testing the module) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought it was invoking Template:Sandbox... --kc_kennylau (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll explain better what I said above. WT:Sandbox is transcluding Template:sandbox to show the introduction text, which seems perfectly fine. When SemperBlotto opened this discussion to notify us of the module problem, WT:Sandbox was invoking Module:sandbox too, which is just a separate, unrelated test module whose contents are unpredictable. Anyone can edit the module to do tests. For some reason, the module seemed to be causing the module error, so when I removed it from WT:Sandbox, the module error stopped appearing. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the revision of the sandbox that was invoking Module:sandbox? --WikiTiki89 19:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Damn. My mistake. I removed the module from Template:sandbox, not from WT:Sandbox. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That doesn't explain why the error was showing up at Sandbox. And anyway, why are we concerned about the sandbox having errors? The whole point of it is to test things out. --WikiTiki89 19:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * : Can you verify the origin of the edittext of Sandbox? Who set it to Template:Sandbox? --kc_kennylau (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks like Template:Sandbox used to be the testing template and Template:sandbox used to be the editnotice but they ended up getting merged: Template talk:sandbox. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:27, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Make the edit box smaller
Is there any setting that will make the edit box smaller? It's too tall, with the other toolbars and stuff that loads at the top. I want to be able to see the "watch this page" tickbox without having to scroll. Equinox ◑ 08:21, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * in the preferences -> editing section the "rows" and "columns" affect the size of the edit box. - TheDaveRoss 13:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Have I lost my cookies?
I had to log in again, as is customary after a month or so, but now I can't show translations etc. I'm being told in preferences I need to enable cookies, but how were they knocked out? DonnanZ (talk) 11:03, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the cookies are working, but the hide / show facility isn't working anywhere, and NEC isn't working either for me. DonnanZ (talk) 12:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Hide/show and NEC not working sounds like a Javascript problem. Maybe clearing your browser's cache will help. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:56, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I've tried everything, used restart and shutdown instead of sleep, checked JavaScript (enabled), logged in and out several times. I can't change preferences either, with the message "You must have JavaScript and cookies enabled...". Other odd behaviour: the images for the WOTD are blanked out, but come up when clicked on. I can enter translations but can't review them or click on them. DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I seem to have resolved the issue by logging out, then I was able to show a translations box full of translations. Logging back in again it now works, and the message at preferences has disappeared. How weird! DonnanZ (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wiktionary:Grease pit/2016/November


text:
Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2016/December

Fifth LexiSession: gift
Monthly trend topic is. This time, it was suggested by Cbyd on LexiSession Meta page. So, if you want to participate in this common task, let's try to discover what can be gathered around the word gift. Maybe not a thesaurus this time but verbs and related terms. I have no idea, it's a collaborative experiment with no guide no direction. You're free to participate as you like and to suggest next months topic. Hope there will be some people interested by this Noé (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually added gift-giving as an idea for a focus week over at FWOTD before even seeing this; fits in nicely :) — Kleio (t · c) 11:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, in English to gift includes genetic or social inheritance, e.g. "Father's bequests were immaterial, gifting us with red hair, fiery temperaments, and poverty." - Amgine/t·e 16:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * See also 🇨🇬. But I think the English examples are just irony. An example with a noun would be "The gift I got for Christmas was a black eye." --WikiTiki89 16:43, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Translations of places
I am curious to hear the current opionions/policies regarding translations of proper noun place names, with the example being Navarre and these translations added by a single anon. - Amgine/t·e 03:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The same as any other translations (or entries)- usage or an external reference if it's a limited documentation language. DTLHS (talk) 03:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I may have been too abstruse: the user added translations in 69 languages. It seemes likely the user is copying from another reference work. How would one attempt to determine if the copying is a copyvio if we do not know the origin? Is there a policy directly addressing translation copyvios? WT:COPY would seem to guide, and it suggests raising the question in fora, like here. - Amgine/t·e 03:41, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems more likely they were copied from the various Wikipedias. DTLHS (talk) 03:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There is an Egyptian Arabic wikipedia? <weirds> - Amgine/t·e
 * Arabic is a pretty broad language family--moreso than German, less so than Chinese. The Egyptian Arabic (Masri) Wikipedia was announced at a Wikimania in Egypt. And a list of facts can't be copyrighted, so it's not a problem for anyone to copy them. No one can "own" a list of U. S. state capitals. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * <nods> I am aware, barely, of the semitic groups. Being more knowledgeable of online communities than linguistics, I was surprised by there being a large enough active community to maintain a wikipedia, and that they had created an article on arz:Navarre. - Amgine/t·e 17:06, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Not under that name, obviously. It's at w:arz:نافارا. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:38, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Splitting Monguor
Monguor, spoken by a Mongolic minority in Qinghai and Gansu provinces of China, is traditionally considered a single language with two macro-dialects: Huzhu and Minhe Monguor, henceforth Mongghul and Mangghuer. However they have been treated as two languages in most recent literature:
 * "Mongghul, or Huzhu Mongghul, is, together with (Minhe) Mangghuer, generally
 * referred to as ‘Monguor’ in the specialist literature. The Chinese nomenclature subsumes
 * the two populations and their languages under the designation Tu or Turen ‘Local
 * People’, and assigns only dialect status to the two varieties. Linguistically it is, however,
 * clearly a question of two separate languages. The traditional name Monguor, which is
 * nothing but a transformed shape of *monggol, is, strictly speaking, not justified for
 * Mongghul, since the syllable-final sound change *l > r characterizes, apart from
 * Mangghuer, only part of the dialects of the Mongghul language, notably the Naringhol
 * (more exactly, Narin ghuor) dialect. The shape Mongghul, on the other hand, is based on
 * the Halchighol (Halqighul) variant, which is territorially more widespread, has more
 * speakers, and is the basis of a newly created literary language."

~Stefan Georg in The Mongolic languages (2003)

 * "Mangghuer, or Minhe Mangghuer, is spoken in Minhe Hui and Tu Autonomous County,
 * at the extreme eastern edge of China’s Qinghai Province, just north of the Yellow River.
 * "Mangghuer has not usually been described as a language in its own right. Rather, it has
 * been treated as one of the two main dialects of the ethnic ‘language’ spoken by the
 * official ‘Monguor’ (Tu) nationality, the other dialect being (Huzhu) Mongghul, spoken
 * mainly in Huzhu Tu Autonomous County, also in Qinghai. However, Mangghuer speakers
 * and Mongghul speakers alike report that they are unable to understand each other. While
 * no comprehensive study of the differences between these two linguistic systems has been
 * undertaken, it is fairly clear that they are different enough to warrant independent treat-
 * ment. Since the two speech communities are not geographically contiguous, this ought
 * not to be surprising."

~Keith Slater in The Mongolic languages (2003)

If you want to see the difference yourself, check this paper out, it is pretty drastic, especially phonotactics. Neither of them is featured in print much, but Mongghul is a legit literary language endorsed by the Chinese authorities, with an orthography based on pinyin; while for Mangghuer "there exists an unofficial orthographical norm", which developed naturally due to Mangghuer phonology being quite similar to Mandarin phonology.

I don't know if we need to have a vote on this, but here's my case. Crom daba (talk) 09:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * How would we implement this split practically? The code for Monguor is . Would we keep that code for one variety (presumably the one with the larger published corpus, if that make sense in this case) and devise a new Wiktionary-internal code (presumably  ) for the other? Or should we deprecate   and devise two new codes, e.g.   and  ? Could we use   as the basis for the new codes, and call them something like   and  ? These questions aren't necessarily for Crom daba, but more for users with experience in creating new codes, like CodeCat and -sche. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:38, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We don't have much Monguor material here so splitting it either way won't be much of a headache. I'd advise for keeping  for Mongghul and perhaps using   for Mangghuer. Crom daba (talk) 16:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The codes should start with . Pinging  because they haven't commented yet. Personally, I'm on board with the split. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

 * On a related note, I see that we already have the most obscure of the Mongolic languages, 🇨🇬. May someone with access to Module:languages/data3/k mark it as Mongolic . Crom daba (talk) 03:07, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. By the way, Requests for moves, mergers and splits is where we usually discuss language treatment, though it sometimes gets discussed here, too. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:25, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Discussion continues at WT:RFM in a thread that will eventually be archived, probably to WT:LTD. - -sche (discuss) 01:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Romance reflexive verbs
How are we supposed to treat them? I've seen usage all over the place. See recoucher, an apparently reflexive-only verb with a non-reflexive conjugation table that isn't linked to from se recoucher. Then we have the mention in the non-reflexive form and also the page itself, as in and. I've been avoiding adding reflexive verbs because they're such a mess. Not to mention the translation tables that reflect these inconsistencies. Ultimateria (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It depends on the language. In Spanish, reflexive verbs are one word so it makes sense to treat them as such. But in French or Catalan, they're two words, so it makes more sense to treat them as reflexive senses on the base verbs. The latter is how we treat them for Dutch as well, see . —CodeCat 16:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Italian reflexive verbs are, of course, handled perfectly - even having proper conjugation tables. See as an example. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Part of the problem is that "reflexive" is used to mean many different things. In Spanish there are "pronomial verbs", some of which are purely reflexive (must always use the reflexive pronoun), some which can be reflexive or not depending on context, some verbs which are "quasireflexive" and are used in passive constructions. DTLHS (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Recently, generally, with my Spanish reflexive verbs, I generally add a reflexive tag to a defn line. And link, for example, documentarse to documentar. But if something is only used reflexively, I give it its own lemma, like autolesionarse. --Derrib9 (talk) 18:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I like the idea of keeping the reflexive tag in the lemma unless it's reflexive only. So in that case you just create the page in the [infinitive]se form with something like "reflexive form of [inf]" and a conj table? Then link to it in the lemma as a...related term? Alternative form? Ultimateria (talk) 14:11, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Will the reflexive infinitive still receive its own inflection table? —CodeCat 15:04, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we discussed this a long time ago; I'm in favor because although it's a logical combination of pronouns and verb forms, it's still helpful for language learners (plus things get tricky in commands) (and look at the cool pronunciation feature of the French ones!). The question becomes where does the conjugation belong. Look at . It has a reflexive sense, a reflexive conj table, and a link to cansarse. I also like that cansarse is mentioned as "reflexive of cansar" followed by a description. However I also think it makes sense for cansarse to have the same table. The other thing is that unless the label in cansar says |reflexive|cansarse}}, the conj table labeled "conjugation of cansarse" doesn't mean much. Once again I'm thinking of the average American high schooler forced to take Spanish who doesn't have a clue. The struggle was real. Ultimateria (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Article creation wizard discussion
Hi all,

This proposal suggests WMF to fund the writing of an article creation wizard at Wikipedia, but with enough interest it may -- in my personal view -- be expanded to write an article creation wizards framework or library for use at non-Wikipedia wikis, such as here. If desired, please join the discussion before December 12.

 * What tools do we use here, now, to make article creation easier for newbies?
 * What requirements do we have for a potential implementation?
 * How would you like to inform the people of the article creation perks and difficulties on this wiki?
 * What else needs to be considered?

Thanks. --Gryllida 03:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Judging by the average quality of new English entries and requested entries, our bigger need is for quality-improvement processes and tools to make English articles better. But non-English entries may be helped. DCDuring TALK 12:50, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Unavailability.
I'm going to be unavailable until December 14. Normally I'd joke that I'd like to see the dictionary finished before I get back, but this time I'd like to make an earnest plea for us to spend some time focusing on the projects of our departed friend User:Robert Ullmann, particularly User:Robert Ullmann/Missing, User:Robert Ullmann/Oldest redlinks. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really related, but I have spent a lot of effort cleaning up after Robert Ullmann's Swahili contributions. The largest remaining technical hurdle is redoing his conjugation templates from scratch; if anyone Lua-competent wants to help me do that, I would appreciate it. (This may have to wait a couple weeks because of my obligations IRL, however.) —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Also much appreciated. Robert Ullmann left a great legacy here, and I would like to see all of his projects completed. bd2412 T 20:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

English present participles
I have noticed that even though they are verb forms, this is deliberately not recorded, for example. Is there any particular reason for this? I can't think of one, and prefer to record them as verb forms (in line with other verb forms) as well as present participles. DonnanZ (talk) 12:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

And the silly thing is, because the template used is "head|en|present participle", it is futile adding "nocat=1", it is still recorded as a present participle. DonnanZ (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Participles are verb forms, so they are categorised as verb forms, just indirectly. —CodeCat 15:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Since the main point of using a headword template is categorization, 1 would be silly. head allows for extra categories, so you could simply add "verb form" as one, I suppose. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a point to this. I'm not aware of any language where the normal practice for participles is to categorise them as verb forms and participles. —CodeCat 15:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

 * The problem seems to be inconsistency, as "head|en|verb form" is used with, {which also records past participles), and; but not  or . Forgive me if I'm wrong but this seems to be a CodeCat decision. All that needs to be done is alter "head|en|present participle" to "head|en|verb form" and remove 1 in every case. DonnanZ (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But it's not an inconsistency, because those aren't participles. As long as CAT:English participles is a subcategory of CAT:English verb forms (and it is), the individual participles don't need to be in the "verb forms" category directly. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Use of makes a mockery of that idea, as it records entries in both Category:English past participles and Category:English verb simple past forms. DonnanZ (talk) 16:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * encompasses both past simple and past participle, so categorizing in both Category:English past participles and Category:English verb simple past forms makes sense. Compare grown, which is only categorized as a participle. Crom daba (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course it makes sense, they are also recorded in Category:English verb forms, which doesn't happen with other participles with the present set-up. DonnanZ (talk) 16:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. Perhaps participle categorization should only take place in definition templates rather than headword templates.
 * On the other hand I'm guessing the only reason you care is because our category browsing display can't show a union of subcategorized entries, and I'd like it if our communal anguish grew great enough for someone to implement this rather than constantly making workarounds (our recent derived/borrowed categorization change is another example of this.) Crom daba (talk) 17:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree about the latter point, that's a real mess too, with countless terms listed as requiring etyl cleanup. Not a lot of joined-up thinking. DonnanZ (talk) 21:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Petscan may interest you. It's a WikiLabs project, it can do most set operations, works for Wiktionary and has a nice interface. —Enosh (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

 * It looks as though the only way of dealing with participle entries is to do it yourself. There's only (!) 25,000-odd present participles. As for etyl cleanup, that's being left to the dogsbodies and could take years. DonnanZ (talk) 14:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Deprecated labels
We have a number of deprecated labels (see: Category:Entries_with_deprecated_labels). I don't know that we have a process for deprecating labels, so I am not sure how they came to be deprecated. Some of the deprecated labels have suggested replacements (and I have replaced most or all of those). The ones which do not have a suggested replacement (singular, plural, ordinal [and really cardinal, but there is a typo]) probably should have. The questions are: 1. how should labels be deprecated? 2. should the currently deprecated labels be deprecated? 3. what should be the replacements for the four remaining deprecated labels? - TheDaveRoss 21:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, duodecillionth is in Category:English ordinal numbers by simply adding the category, rather than inclusion through a template drawing on a module. Maybe that process is deprecated rather than the category scheme as such? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:08, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Much confusion about in parameter from
As seen in Category:English male given names, the parameter from can be:
 * 1) Name of a language (Category:English male given names from Ancient Greek)
 * 2) How the name is generated (Category:English male given names from coinages)
 * 3) The place of origin instead of the language name (Category:English male given names from India)

The editor who that functionality is already inactive, so the decision can be made by you.

As for me, I would probably keep the first two, and replace the third type with the language name.

--kc_kennylau (talk) 11:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm done with fixing these edits
. I've tried to make a solution, it was reverted. Tried to discuss a solution, nothing changed. If nobody wants to do anything about it, neither will I. —CodeCat 18:38, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you link the wrong diff? That edit had nothing to do with you AFAICT. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Template_talk:sense--Dixtosa (talk) 19:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Template:table:seasons
I only just discovered these cool table things. Where can I find a list of all the different types of tables? And is there a table for the planets (Earth, Mercury, Venus, etc.)? ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Special pages => All pages with prefix => Display pages with prefix (table:) with namespace (Template). SemperBlotto (talk) 06:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I created most of those. If you like them, then you're welcome. 😁 --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hold on, I'll try to create a table for the planets now. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:51, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Ok, I created Template:table:Solar System/en. I kinda wanted to include the moons, so I had to choose among including zero, some or all moons. I included some. Also I linked to the Sun. The table could probably have less or more objects, so feel free to discuss or suggest changing the table in some way. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Making wiktionary more visible to search engines
If you were trying to find a dictionary of a particular language via search engine, you might type in in something like "Hungarian dictionary" into a search query. However as it happens, at least for Google the search results pages don't have anything on Wiktionary at all for at least the first seven pages. This is in-spite of the fact that this site ranks among the top 600 websites globally. Perhaps what I'm suggesting is that there should be pages titled "(language name) dictionary", that search engines can more easily find and associate with search queries looking for exactly that, and these pages. Maybe pre-existing articles like About Ancient Greek, Index:Swahili, or Category:Georgian language can be retitled along those lines?--Prisencolin (talk) 10:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * However, if you search for a Hungarian word (such as csirke), Wiktionary is one of the first results. --WikiTiki89 14:42, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I would oppose any SEO scum tricks that try to make our pages sound more relevant than they are. We could quite possibly improve our rankings a little without going that far, though. Equinox ◑ 14:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * For example, I could imagine putting "taxonomic name" and "scientific name" in the metadata (Is that where it goes?) of every page that had . Would that help or do Google and others already do something similar? DCDuring TALK 13:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That's essentially SEO... but it's also not a terrible idea, to be honest. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:00, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

 * There are some very basic things which we don't do. For instance, we don't set meta keywords.  I am not sure if we even can.  It would probably make sense to have all of our definition pages contain keywords like "dictionary, definition, language, word, translations, etymology" etc. - TheDaveRoss 18:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Google's Matt Cutts has said that "Google does not use the keywords meta tag in web ranking" (no doubt because SEO scum ruined them by keyword stuffing). Equinox ◑ 18:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Shows what I know about SEO. I do note that other's are using them still, but it is nice to know that we don't have to worry about ranking lower because we can't modify them. - TheDaveRoss 18:49, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * My suggestions are:
 * Find a way to tag definition lines as the main content of a page, especially the definitions of a word’s primary senses.
 * Link to Wiktionary from other sites more often (not in an advertisement-y way, but whenever a dictionary would be a useful resource).
 * — Ungoliant (falai) 19:21, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The obvious thing is to link from WP, Wikispecies, and any other WMF projects where it might make sense. Perhaps we should do a run against a file from the XML dump of English WP that identifies all the lexical tokens therein, lemmatize the tokens, and determine what subsets of those terms might benefit from a word-specific link of the form Rosa . It might be possible to do something more targeted at WikiSpecies, relating to either etymology or vernacular names.
 * In the case of taxonomic terms, unlike the case of real languages, we face the problem that the L2 header fails to convey the nature of the content provided, even in the broadest terms. At least a Hungarian L2 section conveys the language. DCDuring TALK 01:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Linking from the other projects is only helpful for search ranking if they do not use rel="nofollow" (another tactic forced upon us by the prevalence of spammers). I think Mediawiki does use that. Equinox ◑ 01:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I think when people search for "Hungarian dictionary" they are expecting a single Hungarian / English or English / Hungarian dictionary. We have no unified interface for such a thing. Everything else will just be unwanted noise. DTLHS (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 * And we can take that in two directions: one, that we should focus on creating better interfaces for our content, something most people here probably don't have a lot of experience with or much interest in. Or, we can focus on providing data and not worry too much about how that data is presented. Then if the data is machine readable, other people will be able to use that data to produce more traditional dictionaries. DTLHS (talk) 01:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Voting limits
I edited and restored the previously-withdrawn vote Votes/pl-2016-11/Voting limits per its talk page. Feel free to discuss/edit the vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

New way to edit wikitext
Summary: There's a new opt-in Beta Feature of a wikitext mode for the visual editor. Please go try it out.

We in the Wikimedia Foundation's Editing department are responsible for making editing better for all our editors, new and experienced alike. We've been slowly improving the visual editor based on feedback, user tests, and feature requests. However, that doesn't work for all our user needs: whether you need to edit a wikitext talk page, create a template, or fix some broken reference syntax, sometimes you need to use wikitext, and many experienced editors prefer it.

Consequently, we've planned a "wikitext mode" for the visual editor for a long time. It provides as much of the visual editor's features as possible, for those times that you need or want wikitext. It has the same user interface as the visual editor, including the same toolbar across the top with the same buttons. It provides access to the citoid service for formatting citations, integrated search options for inserting images, and the ability to add new templates in a simple dialog. Like in the visual editor, if you paste in formatted text copied from another page, then formatting (such as bolding) will automatically be converted into wikitext.

All wikis now have access to this mode as a Beta Feature. When enabled, it replaces your existing wikitext editor everywhere. If you don't like it, you can reverse this at any time by turning off the Beta Feature in your preferences. We don't want to surprise anyone, so it's strictly an opt-in-only Beta Feature. It won't switch on automatically for anyone, even if you have previously checked the box to "".

The new wikitext edit mode is based on the visual editor, so it requires JavaScript (as does the current wikitext editor). It doesn't work with gadgets that have only been designed for the older one (and vice versa), so some users will miss gadgets they find important. We're happy to work with gadget authors to help them update their code to work with both editors. We're not planning to get rid of the current main wikitext editor on desktop in the foreseeable future. We're also not going to remove the existing ability to edit plain wikitext without JavaScript. Finally, though it should go without saying, if you prefer to continue using the current wikitext editor, then you may so do.

This is an early version, and we'd love to know what you think so we can make it better. Please leave feedback about the new mode on the feedback page. You may write comments in any language. Thank you.

James Forrester (Product Manager, Editing department, Wikimedia Foundation) --19:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Oh, I didn't realise the visual editor was already enabled here. Regarding the new text editor (esp. in the context of Wiktionary), I left some feedback over at MediaWiki. I've also begun to add TemplateData for some frequently used templates (Category:TemplateData_documentation). This will help new users in the visual editor as well as more experienced editors once the new editor can handle syntax highlighting and autocompletion. – Jberkel (talk) 11:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

SOP translations
It occured to me that in many cases translations of English words into foreign languages may be phrases whose meaning is derived from the sum of their parts and thus do not deserve an entry by themselves. Do we have a way to easily enter such phrases into translation tables and have parts linked individually, and if not, how would you prefer we implement this? Crom daba (talk) 23:38, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, just link them individually inside (won't work with the automatic translation adder). DTLHS (talk) 23:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's pretty urgent that someone makes this work with the translation adder! —CodeCat 00:55, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's line 727 in User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js- it would be easy to remove the check but I don't know if it would break other things. Done? Revert if necessary. DTLHS (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I hope it works. DCDuring TALK 02:02, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I was just thinking about this today. Can SoP translations be added for Chinese translations using the automatic translation adder? If so, how? ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * put the individual part in Crom daba (talk) 17:41, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up! That will save a lot of time! ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:51, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Calques category
Could we make a separate category for "X terms calqued from Y terms" instead of lumping it into borrowings? Crom daba (talk) 18:04, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I support this, and I support placing all the entries from "X terms calqued from Y" in "X terms derived from Y" too. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * as long as the entries are not also placed in "X terms derived from Y". —CodeCat 18:47, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * . I'm undecided about CodeCat's extra condition. --WikiTiki89 18:54, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * . Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:53, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * . I also support CodeCat's extra condition. It is weird and misleading to see native words in "X terms derived from Y". --Vahag (talk) 05:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Is this to everyone's satisfaction (double categorization aside)? Crom daba (talk) 23:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Also if someone likes tedious but helpful work, DTLHS made a handy list of words manually marked as calques that need to be templatized here. Crom daba (talk) 04:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Forms of entries that do not exist
Just added this category to Module:form of- I can split more individual languages if anyone is interested. DTLHS (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Maybe split off Japanese since Template:ja-romanization of's use of Module:form of and Category:Japanese_romaji_without_a_main_entry is currently creating a redundancy. —suzukaze (t・c) 10:03, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There seem to be something going wrong here — the category is also being filled with forms of entries that are not in mainspace (i.e. alternate forms of reconstructions). --Tropylium (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It wasn't working properly in other cases anyway, and didn't catch most of the things I hoped it would. Removed from the module. DTLHS (talk) 16:46, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Books
Shouldn't we have the ones of Category:Wiktionary books (user books) out of Category:Books? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 17:25, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Definitely. Thanks. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:08, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Populate "Japanese terms spelled with (...)" with all members from "Japanese terms spelled with (...) read as (...)"
For example, I'd like to populate Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上 with all the words found in its subcategories.

Say, 坂上 would be a member of Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上, as well as Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上 read as かみ and Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上 read as うえ.

Rationale: When I'm looking for a new Japanese word spelled with a certain kanji that I don't know how to pronounce, I'd rather just see one category about the kanji than click on all the 11 subcategories to find the right word. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:04, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that it would be useful, for learners especially, but could words be added to categories on such a massive scale and avoid clutter? 天人了 (talk) 08:51, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Currently Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上 itself (not subcategories) is populated with words with irregular readings and words for which is not filled out. What new category would these words fall into? —suzukaze (t・c) 09:00, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

 * If we want to categorize entries for which is not filled out, then I suggest using a single category for all these terms. It should make it easier to clean up by adding the readings. I suggest creating either of these:
 * Category:ja-kanjitab not filled out or
 * Category:Japanese terms lacking pronunciation in the character boxes (I prefer this one)
 * If we want to categorize entries with irregular readings, we may want to create categories like this:
 * Category:Japanese terms spelled with 上 with irregular readings
 * Feel free to suggest other ideas, including different names for these categories. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 09:18, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

 * , I've always been baffled that parent categories are not proper supersets of child categories. As Daniel notes above, this is an avoidable usability barrier.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:22, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We could do that easily if we committed to categorizing with templates only (not likely to happen). DTLHS (talk) 18:23, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Most of our categories in the format "Category:English ..." are already filled by templates, as opposed to many categories in the format "Category:en:..." that are not. Apparently all or most of the "Japanese terms spelled with (...)" are already filled by templates, although I didn't do a complete check. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:22, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Vote: Boldface in image captions
FYI, I created Votes/2016-12/Boldface in image captions.

Let us postpone the vote as much as discussion requires, if at all. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Has there been any discussion of this issue at all? Is it something that needs to be voted on? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:04, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I found this: Beer parlour/2011/March --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:22, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There's been no recent discussion, AFAIK. I expect the discussion to develop before the vote or during the vote, but I also expect this to be largely a matter of taste. This could have been a poll instead of a vote, and I have tried to set up the vote in a largely symmetric matter, but I think we can give it a try with a vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:13, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The voting form is incomplete. has been left out. DonnanZ (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This appears to be by design. There are two options that can be supported. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:28, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

V-spellings in katakana and other alternative forms
I added two alternative forms of loanwords spelled with ヸ, ヸタミン and テレヸジョン, however should all such terms be added? Considering the number as new loanwords from English are still increasing, this may not be possible. The two that I now added are definitely in use enough to encounter in the wild, some others are also, but theoretically any loanword can be formed with such hypercorrect respelling... I try to include as many alternative forms as I can think of at the moment or add later, which is why in the case of Southern Altai words I only list the alternative spellings or synonyms that exist in different dialects without the standardized variant, rather than separate entry for each variant to avoid clutter.

But Japanese is a major language of the world, unlike the Altai dialects or other Turkic languages etc. Others have added alternative spellings as both new entries and in the main entry, with no standardized practice I can see. The reality is with Altai that not many contribute to Wiktionary actively, and there is a political dimension, with Japanese this is different as Wiktionary is full of Japanese speakers. Should a standardized practice policy exist for alternative forms?

More importantly the concern is, could the addition of links to alternative forms be automated? To manually add all if such are included, not only is timeconsuming but impossible to avoid clutter. My proposal if possible would be an automation for links to alternative forms and synonyms to be added as expandable boxes, as with Chinese terms, so that alternative forms and synonyms can be added without cluttering the entry. But, this is only if alternative forms and synonyms are to be massively included as new entries and/or listed with possible redlinks, naturally. 天人了 (talk) 09:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Japanese is a well documented language, which means any entry has to be citeable from at least three uses (not mere mentions) from independent, permanently archived sources over more than a year. If that's true of ヸタミン and テレヸジョン and any other forms with ヸ, they can be added. If not, they can't. I would therefore avoid using automation to add them, because it takes a human brain to determine which forms meet WT:CFI and which don't. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:45, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * BTW, isn't it more common to use ヴィ to represent /vi/ rather than ヸ? Are ヴィタミン and テレヴィジョン more widely used than ヸタミン and テレヸジョン? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * In that case, it is sensible to delete them as neither of the words is found in permanently archived sites. I'm sorry for adding them without first asking. 天人了 (talk) 16:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

 * The entries should be speedily deleted and the user warned for making things up. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:58, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You are right that they are not used enough in permanent ways online, then they should be deleted, but to call the entries "BS" and accuse me of "making things up" is not civil. You say this of Japanese but not Altai so I don't want to unfairly accuse you of politics. But, my suspicion is raised because as a Russian you say I should be "warned", sounds like an emotional reaction to suggest I am a vandal. Perhaps I am paranoid to suspect this an attempt to invalidize the Altai entries, but such is so very common in the real world by government policies, that it is questionable if politics has a part in your response... 天人了 (talk) 16:08, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * They needn't be found in online permanently archived sources. Print sources like books, magazines, and newspapers are acceptable too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:00, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * My ethnicity or government policies have nothing to do with this. I care about the quality of the dictionary. I'm not suggesting you're vandal. Vandals are blocked, not warned. I don't know what Altai has to do it either and what I said about it. In any case, you have to prove that these spelling are used by using online or offline permanently archived sources. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Adding Proto-Tupian
Hello! As you may see, I'm new to Wiktionary, in fact, English is not even my native language. Anyways, I've been wanting to add Proto-Tupian to Wiktionary but I need some help, as I don't know much about this. I have a lot of reconstructions to add and I would really appreciate if Proto-Tupian could be added to Wiktionary. Regards! --~ 𝔪𝔢𝔪𝔬 (talk) 23:19, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We'll need to add a code for the language to Module:languages/datax. Also are you planning on adding Tupian family entries in conjunction with their proto language ancestors? DTLHS (talk) 23:25, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Also what books and letters will you be using? We'll need to document this at About Proto-Tupian so that others know how to contribute in the same form later. Crom daba (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The code would have to be 'tup-pro', and the letters to be used are ɨ, ã, ẽ, ĩ, õ, ũ, ʔ, ˀ, ʷ and ʸ. --~ 𝔪𝔢𝔪𝔬 (talk) 17:03, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added the code. I recommend creating a few entries and people will let you know if you're doing something wrong. DTLHS (talk) 17:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It also needs to be added to the Tupian family and made an ancestor of Tupian languages. Crom daba (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Also we have a few Guaraní varieties not subsumed under Tupian. Crom daba (talk) 17:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made you a template editor so I think you should be able to edit the data modules now. DTLHS (talk) 17:19, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Some Tupian languages apparently use the Mongol script... Anyone know what was meant here? Crom daba (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Just a copy and paste error I assume. DTLHS (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hum. Is it Proto-Tupian or Proto-Tupi-Guarani (PTG)? Actually, I am a linguist working on a Tupi-Guarani language (siriono) and I've been part of a research team on PTG. We haven't described the protolanguage but established cognates to compare 33 languages (all TG but Mawé and Aweti). Our database is not published yet so I imagine you do not rely on this one. But, what are your sources? On how many Tupi non-TG languages are they based? Is it only a lexicostatistic study? Please add the references on every pages and not only on one main page not connected to the others. Noé (talk) 16:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's our first Proto-Tupian lemma. Crom daba (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you need help with making reference templates ? Crom daba (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I found this work (in Portuguese) that has PT and PTG reconstructions if anyone's interested, but it uses a different spelling convention than Guillermo's lemma. Crom daba (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

bucketsful
Is it the case that the plural of nouns of the form "xful" may always be either xfuls or xsful? SemperBlotto (talk) 08:19, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * And is "xsfuls" always wrong? SemperBlotto (talk) 08:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I expect dialectic variance. cupfuls and cupsful would suggest the latter answer is no, in upper-midwestern, but not apparently in spelling locale of my computer. - Amgine/t·e 17:40, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What about "buckets full"? DonnanZ (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

 * AIUI, "three buckets full" would refer to three actual buckets that are full, while "three bucketsful" or "three bucketfuls" is just a particular volume that would fill three buckets, though it might be in some other container right now. To answer Blotto's question: I've added a lot of these and I check both plurals in Google Books. Some have a -sful plural and some do not, in practice. Equinox ◑ 02:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

"References" / "External sources" vote
Based on Beer parlour/2016/November, I created this vote:

 * Votes/2016-12/"References" and "External sources"

Feel free to discuss/edit/whatever. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:11, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

 * The vote is scheduled to start in a couple of weeks, just in case some people are not available right now because of the holidays.
 * In case people want to check the vote or maybe change anything, I'll ping everyone who participated in the previous discussion: . --Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:10, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

title: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2016/December