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Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/June

Proto-Kartvelian nouns
Are these actually nouns or roots? Bonus question: if a reconstructed archetype has a hyphen in the end, does it automatically mean it's a root? btw, in case you've just thought "wow this guy is dumb", I'll have you know that it took me exactly a year to notice this potential error. --Simboyd (talk) 15:59, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Having worked a little with polysynthetic/agglutinative languages, I would never question the intelligence of anyone who has trouble understanding one of them. For those of us here who don't speak such languages, very basic features of them can be mind-meltingly strange. Not knowing the specifics, I would point out that being a root and being a noun aren't necessarily mutually exclusive- it depends on the language. For instance, in Sanskrit the noun lemma forms at Wiktionary don't include the inflectional endings, because the forms of the endings vary substantially according to what word follows, and because all the major dictionaries don't include them either. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I was being sarcastic. I've made my peace with the fact that I'm a bit slow. Anyway, none of the dictionaries of Proto-Kartvelian mention whether the reconstructions are to be classified under roots or nouns, but somehow common sense tells me they are roots. For example, is most definitely a fully respectable noun while  is probably just a root whence Kartvelian words for "father" are derived. It's the same in PIE entries too — the ones that end in hyphens are roots and the ones without are fully reconstructed words. I think I'll just convert all of the Kartvelian nouns/verbs to roots, after all, I'm the one who fucked them up. --Simboyd (talk) 21:54, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Proto-Kartvelian isn't Proto-Indo-European. For one thing, PIE roots (at least as I understand it) don't really have a part of speech, since they can be made into either verbs or nouns. The answer to your question depends on the analysis of those who work with Proto-Kartvelian, which I know nothing about. Perhaps or  might have some insights. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:27, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * A reconstruction or word with a hyphen can have a part of speech. I don't know much about Proto-Kartvelian either, but it looks like that unlike Proto-Indo-European Proto-Kartvelian roots do have part of speech. For example, the meaning and the descendants of are all nominal. --Vahag (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Haketia
We don’t have a label for this dialect. I would add it myself if I knew where it’s supposed to go. -- Romanophile ♞ (contributions) 15:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What's it a dialect of? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:26, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Ladino, according to Haketia. - -sche (discuss) 20:12, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Do we want to treat it as a dialect of Ladino or as a separate language? If we want to treat it as a dialect, do we want the category to be called "Category:Haketia" or "Category:Haketia Ladino"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:20, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a tricky question. I would go with making it a dialect just for convenience, even if it's not the ideologically correct thing to do. The category should be Category:Haketia. --WikiTiki89 14:29, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ . The labels lad, lad, and lad should now all categorize into Category:Haketia, unless I did something wrong. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:46, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The correct category is Haketia Ladino. I am changing the module to this. DTLHS (talk) 19:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Why is that "correct"? "Haketia" is the name of the dialect, most other dialects don't actually have names and so are called "[place] [language]", but that's not necessary here, and frankly is not very grammatical. And please let the discussion play out before making changes. --WikiTiki89 19:30, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Show me any other dialect category that leaves out the language name. DTLHS (talk) 19:32, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not an argument. But there is Category:Helsinki slang. --WikiTiki89 19:52, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I support "Haketia" alone, as it is. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:41, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Python script?
I think I've seen two references to python within the last month. Is/was Python somehow supported by this site?~If so, in what area? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It was probably in reference to bots. Python has some pretty good libraries supporting the MediaWiki API and even some that do wikitext parsing and more, and so most bots are written in Python. --WikiTiki89 15:13, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

context labels: derogatory vs pejorative vs offensive
When to use which?--Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 06:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Updating Appendix:Glossary with the subtleties explained would be best. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 06:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to go by the definitions found on the page which may be of some help to you, but especially derogatory and pejorative seem to me to be used as synonyms a lot of the time. Would also like some clarification on this. — Kleio (t · c) 18:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Is there a way to know when a word is added to a category?
Turns out putting it on watchlist only informs you about source code changes. But I'd like to know about new entries being created for a language/category. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

 * When you watch a category, you can uncheck the box that says page categorization on your watchlist page (under watchlist options just above the list of changes) and it will show new additions to that category. — Kleio (t · c) 14:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

 * So you uncheck the box to view page categorization? Isn't this backwards? DTLHS (talk) 00:41, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No as long as the list of checkboxes is preceded by "hide", and they are. Dixtosa (talk) 05:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Though whether it should be checked by default is debatable. — Kleio (t · c) 23:24, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Cōnsors can sometimes appear in the ablative as, although here it is only declined in the ablative as. There is an example of this use in Ovid's Metamorphoses book 1 line 319 "cum consorte tori parva rate vectus adhaesit,"

I have no idea where to suggest this fix nor how to do it myself. 67.183.23.118 00:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Template to request checking of a definition?
We have, but that's for unclear or imprecise definitions, while is for when the definition is disputed. Is there a mechanism to ask for other users to check if a given sense is accurate, and amend it if necessary? —CodeCat 20:35, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've seen used for this (i.e. with a definition already given). --WikiTiki89 20:43, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Japanese loan words
Random question for those Japanese speakers out there: if a Japanese term that derives from Chinese already exists, when is that term preferred over its equivalent transliterated from a Western language? E.g. there are two words for "music" in Japanese - 音楽 and ミュージック. When is the former preferred over the latter? Or are they interchangeable? ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I can tell you that, generally speaking, words written in kanji have a formal, cold, technical feel, while the same word written is hiragana is softened, warm, and made comfortable. Then borrowings from Chinese are more technical and formal (equivalent to English using Latin and Greek borrowings), while borrowings from English are popular, stylish, and fun (equivalent to English using Norse and Anglo-Saxon forms). The native Japanese equivalents are often considered old-fashioned, lower-class. The native Japanese words usually have a broader meaning than the loanwords: English inn, Japanese 宿屋 (yadoya), Sino-Japanese 旅館 (ryokan), English ホテル (hoteru). The Sino-Japanese words are likely to be found in contracts and other formal transactions. The English loans would be preferred, for example, in less formal transactions such as cancellation of appointments, ticket reservations, etc.
 * When choosing between on'yomi (Chinese loans) and kun'yomi (native Japanese), the on'yomi are used in compounds, and the kun'yomi are used in isolation. —Stephen (Talk) 14:44, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

 * Very helpful, thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:56, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

carouse
A decadent randomness; not always about alcohol, maybe flippant and haphazard, bored and unconcerned, but with an element of supremacy

﬩
What is ﬩ called in Hebrew? -- Romanophile ♞ (contributions) 18:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

 * It seems ﬩ and + are both called . --WikiTiki89 19:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing and corrections
I know the concepts of original research and reliable sourcing are handled differently here on Wiktionary than it is on Wikipedia, but what does one do with entries that make dubious claims about the term in question and might in fact be wrong about what it means? How do you confirm that it's not just the poster's opinion? What's the proper way to make corrections? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Allowing original research doesn't mean allowing unsupported opinions. Definitions need to be confirmed by direct quotations of the word used with that definition. --WikiTiki89 20:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, so let's say this term has some quotations, but most of them are from things like blogs and message boards. Does that matter or are they considered RS for Wiktionary's purposes?  This particular term, I've noticed, has an RS/non-RS split, where the RS say it means one thing and the blogs etc. say it means something else.  Or would both meanings be listed?
 * What about independent value judgments, like "this term is clearer than that one"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

 * Citations need to meet WT:CFI, so Internet message boards don't count. Independent judgements are also avoided as being prescriptive rather than descriptive, though sometimes you can e.g. use a "proscribed" gloss (meaning that a form is widely considered wrong) or put something in a Usage notes section, preferably backed up by authorities. Equinox ◑ 11:50, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

title: Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/June


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Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/July

Offline mobile Wiktionary client
WiktionaryMobile seems dead as a doornail. Not sure that it ever supported offline access anyway. I'm starting a React Native project. If anyone knows of an existing project of this sort, lemme know so I can stop trying to write it.
 * This app is really good but only supports several languages. --Dixtosa (talk) 11:40, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is pronunciation of "discharge" hidden?
Why is the pronunciation in the discharge entry hidden? Is this normal? --Greek Fellows (talk) 13:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

 * No, it is not usual. DCDuring did that back in 2008, thus. I don’t know why he did it. I don’t see a reason for it. —Stephen (Talk) 14:18, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Probably because there are a lot of lines so it takes a while to read down to the definition, which is the most useful part. Equinox ◑ 14:31, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As there was an audio file present, which suits most normal users, I demoted the 6 line IPA, useless for normal users. I think that registered users can set such a thing to be open by default in CSS or JS, though I am not the one to do it. DCDuring TALK 15:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Except that the audio file is valid only for the noun, not the verb. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:40, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

The symbols in our logo
Hey. It'd be cool to know the symbols of this logo. Could someone make a list of them here, or perhaps put them in a better place? --Turnedlessef (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * They are: シ, श, 말, λ, W, ش, Ж, 维, ש. Wyang (talk) 22:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I wonder why there are so many /ʃ/-like sounds in this set. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:26, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The Semitic ones, at least, are related. —CodeCat 22:26, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I know; but in addition to the Arabic and Hebrew, the katakana represents /ʃi/, the Devanagari represents /ɕ/, and the Cyrillic represents /ʒ/ (or /ʃ/ word-finally). I feel like this can't be a coincidence. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The Cyrillic letter for /ʃ/ is actually related to the Semitic ones, so it's strange that they didn't pick it instead. —CodeCat 22:32, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The letters are from the "tiles" logo that User:Smurrayinchester designed. Maybe they remember why they chose them. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It was a long time ago (and in all honesty I've come to hate that logo. I was horribly naïve when I designed it - I was for instance blissfully unaware that shi is considered unlucky in Japanese). By and large I selected letters from translations of Wiktionary - original plan was to just take the first letter for Wiktionary in each alphabet, but in both Cyrillic and Greek that was В/Β which is aesthetically unpleasing. So we have lambda from λεξικό (side note - I really should have used capital Λ), श from शब्दकोश. I probably picked 말 because that's a character from 위키낱말사전 and it means word. The 维 is a nice one - first character in 维基词典, has a /w/ sound, and it also means "net" or "connect". I haven't a clue where Ж, ش or ש came from. I might have taken them from transliterations of "Wiktionary" (I think the list I was working from was a mess, and mixed transliterations and translations together) - I took the first letter that followed the "Wiki" part, mistakenly believing that meant "dictionary". Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing Ж, ش and ש were chosen for their visual similarity to W. --WikiTiki89 15:01, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

disambiguating a translation gloss
In checking out my guess about the meaning and ancestry of Spanish ahumar, I saw that the English gloss for the reconstructed Vulgar Latin etymon, affumo, was very misleading:

 * I smoke.
 * I smoke.
 * I smoke.

Of course, in English by far the commonest meaning of to smoke refers to tobacco or other burning material: and I smoke is normally meant and understood as meaning "I habitually inhale and exhale tobacco smoke" (or, these days, the vapor of e-cigs, which are now being mentioned on NO SMOKING signs).
 * 1)  To inhale and exhale the smoke from a burning cigarette, cigar, pipe, etc.
 * 2)  To inhale and exhale tobacco smoke.

I don't edit Wiktionary much, and I didn't know how to fix this problem, and a search for things like "ambiguous definition" didn't pan out. Fortunately, I found a model in ahumar. Would someone more experienced than I please check Reconstruction:Latin/affumo to make sure I've done it properly? Thank you.

To discuss... mmm, is there an interwiki version of Wiktionary ping or Wikipedia Template:ping? I log in to WP every day and see any notifications to wikipedia:User:thnidu, but I don't know how to forward such from Wikt to WP. --Thnidu (talk) 04:31, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Remove the spine of
Came up while proof reading something. I feel like there ought to be an English word for this, but I can't find one. Expinate/exspinate, despine and unspine all looks plausible but come up as red links. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:27, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "exspinate" and "unspine" aren't attestable, "despine" exists but is used to refer to removing the spines of plants. spinalize means to surgically separate the spine from the brain. DTLHS (talk) 22:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And of course there's debone but that's not specific to the spine. DTLHS (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And vertebrectomy for removal of a single vertebra. DTLHS (talk) 22:56, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "spinectomy" gets a few hits. DTLHS (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Removing the spine of a book is (more or less) unbinding, since it's what holds the pages together... Equinox ◑ 23:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

 * The closest I can come up with is pith. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Colons in Wikipaedia Double Bracket Link Syntax
What is the difference between  and  ? I am finding the latter in about 3% of the cases where I would expect the former (37 times in Ancient Greek), and while it seems to have the same effect, I am unsure that it doesn't have a different intent. An example of the latter is:  in Αἴγυπτος; normally one sees:  , as in μάγος. My understanding, from Help:Interwiki_linking, is that this syntax is used for inter-Wiktionary links; I cannot find an explanation of a use for Wikipaedia links. Thanks, Isomorphyc (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 * In the case of Wikipedia links, I don’t think it makes any difference. In some other cases, such as Category:Spanish language, and es:solo, the initial colon forces the link to appear inline (in the text), rather than in the left margin (link to wiktionaries in other languages) or at the foot of the page (normal place for categories). —Stephen (Talk) 10:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

How many exact entries?
This has probably been asked before, but I can't find the question in the FAQ. I know that the main page says the amount of actual pages, but is there a way to see how many entries there are (as in, total amount of L2s)? Philmonte101 (talk) 08:42, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * WT:STATS —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 08:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Special link syntax
Not exactly new but I've always wondered about this. Is there a concise list of all the special link syntax Wiktionary has? There seems to be a lot of magic syntax like  that Wikipedia doesn't have. I'm not looking for a tutorial, just an overview/appendix if one exists. Thanks! Wing gundam (talk) 17:28, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It's basically just and . The former is used in running text, the latter in lists. You can look at the documentation of these templates for details about all the features they support. --WikiTiki89 17:38, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Also for translation tables. Many other templates build upon the basic linking capabilities of  and, such as  and . —CodeCat 17:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Using the most common definitions first
Recenty while perusing the page for STD, I found a lesser-used meaning of the word being put in as definition 1. Why don't we sort word definitions by common usage not history of use? Also, why are there usage parentheses used beside the term even tho its main definition is the same in both the serious field of pathology and common speaking?

 * There is an unsolved argument here on Wiktionary on whether we should order definitions chronologically or by frequency. Since there is no consensus, it's up to the editors. However, that also means that you can't go around enforcing your own point of view on existing entries. --WikiTiki89 19:11, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would be in favor of ordering by frequency except that it's essentially impossible to quantify objectively. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

How to handle terms derived from non-lemma forms?
Occasionally you come across terms derived from a non-lemma form, often a participle. How should such cases be handled? Should we list such derivations at the lemma entry or at the non-lemma that the term actually derived from? What should the etymology of the derived term say? For example, is derived from, which is the present participle of. —CodeCat 00:01, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the etymology should definitely list the form the word is actually derived from. Whether it should also list the lemma is open to debate, but I think that's the best solution as well. What I've done before as well is written something like "from such-and-such, a whatever-form of such-and-such a lemma, [which is] from...." I think that is ideal, except when the lemma has a separate etymology from the form in question. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And where should it be listed as a derived term, on or ? —CodeCat 01:11, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * off-topic: there's a module error in - -sche (discuss) 03:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would think derived terms could just go at the lemma, unless they have different etymologies. I wouldn't protest against doing it the other way, however. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:36, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Participles behave like lemmas in a lot of ways, including being fully inflectable in a lot of languages. I wouldn't object to having a ====Derived terms==== section simply because it's a participle. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:15, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I usually list it in both places (lemma and non-lemma) under derived terms. --Panda10 (talk) 13:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Etymologies for non-lemma forms
Now, for English, for example, I've seen etymologies for some of the more irregular inflections of verbs or nouns, etc. But, is it against the rules or something to add:

===Etymology===

From

at watchlists? Or is it just technically allowed and no one actually takes the time to do it? (not asking just about English, but for all languages with non-lemma forms) Philmonte101 (talk) 13:13, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think non-lemmas should not have etymologies, even if irregular. The irregularity should be explained on the lemma page, where all the inflections are listed. —CodeCat 13:30, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I have little opinion on whether etymologies should or shouldn't be in entries for inflected forms. However, is there a rule somewhere that says that non-lemmas can't have etymologies? Philmonte101 (talk) 13:40, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not a hard-and-fast rule, but having etymologies for predicable inflectional forms is generally nothing but clutter- especially since it populates affix categories that are best not used for this (for -s it would be the equivalent of "English third-person singular verbs and some possessive or plural nouns", and for other present-tense forms you only have the lack of an affix). It's been debated already whether having an etymology for a suppletive form that has a different etymology from the lemma is a good idea, with some opposed. What you're asking about would probably be universally disliked, with only the difficulty of formulating and voting on a rule against it being the only reason there isn't one (that and the assumption that people should have the sense not to do it, rule or not). Chuck Entz (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

predestination
Predestination is taken over by religion? why not cause and effect being the same?
 * It mostly comes up in a religious context. Do you have some citations that show it in other contexts? DCDuring TALK 09:57, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/July


text:
Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/August

Category:English phrasal verbs with particle (in)
turn in is not in the list. i think it should be added
 * It's there on page 2 - click "next 200 pages". Keith the Koala (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Names of TV series or video games other brand names or other trademarked pop culture elements
Why is it that CFI doesn't allow just regular TV series to be added. I found three book citations that attest Duckman, the television series (not the surname), in Books. I found independent citations as well, i.e. books that are not about Duckman, although CFI still somehow doesn't allow an entry for this...

But seriously, why? I mean, they're still proper nouns, and many actually have 3 durably archived book sources (I mean a lot of them). Why can they not have definitions here? Philmonte101 (talk) 21:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

 * That's not what a dictionary is traditionally for. Wikipedia can "define" such things far better. They are not general terms but specific things. How could you define it apart from just "a TV show" or whatever? Equinox ◑ 22:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary does more than define terms. It gives etymologies, pronunciations, and so on. For this reason I think that brands should be included. —CodeCat 22:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * @ User:Equinox "not general terms but specific things" is like the definition of a proper noun. We have countries, cities, names of people and animals, etc. The TV series and video game series and such would obviously need to be mentioned in three citable sources that weren't just about the subject or from the creator of the subject, but they are still technically proper nouns just like Denmark or Winesburg. I'm sure Winesburg, Ohio, as a book, would be notable if these were the guidelines, since it's mentioned in many works of literature and journals, at it is a classic novel. Philmonte101 (talk) 12:44, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed with User:CodeCat. But I'm just wondering, what is the current motive for WT:BRAND or you know, for other trademarks, such as Transformers (the toyline), Naruto (the anime), Halo (the video game series), Duckman (a TV show and comic series), etc.? Philmonte101 (talk) 22:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

 * "All words in all languages" - what could be simpler. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:02, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I asked this, because I wanted to see what was up with that. Perhaps, now that I see that there are both a good share of people who believe that brand names and trademark names don't belong, and some who believe that they do belong, perhaps it is a good idea to create a vote about this? Philmonte101 (talk) 12:34, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Family-spoken and family-invented constructed languages
I know it isn't common. But is there a term for constructed languages that are part of a family tradition and specific to one family? I'm in one of these families and I'm trying to figure out what to really call it. We call it a familispro, but that just literally means "family language".

Okay so and if there's not a term for it, do you guys know any other examples of this sort of rare thing? I'm sure it happens far more in Europe than it does here in the US, since that continent is very multilingual. I think I've heard Esperanto is more commonly spoken in Europe than any other continent, but that's unrelated. Philmonte101 (talk) 12:58, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I would just call it a family language, unless you really want to emphasize the fact that it is constructed. --WikiTiki89 14:49, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

grammar question
Are both these two sentences grammatically correct? Or only one?

1) If we stay at home, it is comfortable and there is no need to spend money. 2) If we stay at home, it will be comfortable and there is no need to spend money.

Can anyone help? ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Both are grammatical, but I would suggest "Staying at home would be comfortable and there would be no need to spend money", which avoids the tense issue altogether. At any rate, it's hypothetical, so you should use a subjunctive construction with "would". Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the first one sounds wrong to me. The second one would also be better if you change the tense of the second verb: “If we stay at home, it will be more comfortable and there will be no need to spend money.” You could also use "would" instead of "will". --WikiTiki89 15:33, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I now realize that the first sentence would sound right to me if you were talking about a repetitive past action, rather than planning a single future action. --WikiTiki89 15:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Both syntactically sound. I think they are both generally acceptable too; despite Chuck's comment, you don't have to use the subjunctive just because something is hypothetical ("if it rains tomorrow, we will get wet"). #2 sounds slightly odder to me because of the mixture of tenses ("it will" but "there is"). Equinox ◑ 15:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Inflections in example sentences
I've been searching around Wiktionary for a while and cannot really find a definite answer to whether example sentences of a word are allowed to use an inflected form of that word instead. I've seen this in several entries, but instinctively I would think that the example sentence should use the exact form of the word when possible. Is there a definite policy to this? AtalinaDove (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, example sentences should be able to use any form of the word. We typically don't add example sentences to non-lemmas. It would be too much work, and users should be able to see how a word is inflected without having to visit each inflected page. DTLHS (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Adding languages
How can I add codes for new languages onto Wiktionary as so that I can create entries for that language (such as Kalasha)? Lincoln1001 (talk) 11:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Always check our List of languages and our Language treatment page first, since we've spent a lot of time and effort over the past decade on language codes, and there's usually a reason if we don't have a specific code. In this case, though, we do have one: Kalasha is "kls". Chuck Entz (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but is there a template to use to create Kalasha entries (like ) as there is for English? Lincoln1001 (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What kind of template do you mean? There is no Template:en. —CodeCat 14:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A language code is all that is needed to create the entry (i.e. templates are convenient, but not necessary). For the header, if that's what you are talking about, just write . Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, how can I get this format for the Kalasha Index page (and other formats used on other language index pages)? Lincoln1001 (talk) 14:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you mean how to get the word count (271073)? I think you need to ask for the most recent XML dump (such as 2016-Aug-08 XML dump), but I don’t know where to ask for that. Someone here will know. Or if you mean how to format such a page, just click on, then in the nav bar in the left margin, choose "What links here" to see the pages that use that template. For example, Index:English/e. Then you can examine the page to see how it is formatted. —Stephen (Talk) 11:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Translation of Russian sentence
"Вес проводников приблизительно 50 тонн." in the context of this Russian text. Specifically, I am interested in exactly what it is that weighs 50 tons. Is it all of the conductors for the 450km transmission line? What hangs between two adjoining towers? Something else? DCDuring TALK 21:56, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly - this is the total weight of all the conducting material (wires) hanging throughout the length of the transmission line. There's a great site called Russian Language Stack Exchange, by the way, it is a question that migth have been okay there. Cheers, ---CopperKettle (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Languages "relevant to you" gadget, get rid of it once and for all?
I don't really like this very much at all. I always liked to go to popular entries/articles on wikis and scroll down the language list just for fun. I love the interwiki function, and I love how I can immediately see all the languages at once in alphabetical order. It is just one of those weird things I like to do in my spare time.

In all seriousness, now for my question. Is there a way I can internationalize in my preferences that I do not want the new relevant to you languages gadget? I find it really annoying how whenever I go to a new wiki it has that gadget. On my account, I'd like it to burn with fire! Thanks for the help. Philmonte101 (talk) 00:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * You can disable it under Preferences, Appearance, Languages. You might have to do this separately on every wiki you use. Equinox ◑ 00:09, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * @User:Equinox Sorry for not clarifying, but that's what I have been doing. I was just wondering if there was a way to disable it on all wikis at once? Philmonte101 (talk) 00:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Doubtful. I see some dreary discussions at, . Equinox ◑ 00:15, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm in the same boat. It would be nice to get an answer to this. --WikiTiki89 00:15, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * @ User:Wikitiki89 and anyone else who would like to know, I've finally figured out a way to fix this. Look through the second link Equinox sent off in his comment. There are lines of code you can enter into meta's global.js that will internationalize all your preference settings not to use a CLL. I did it myself. See my code at meta:User:Philmonte101/global.js. Philmonte101 (talk) 05:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

English yet
What does the word "yet" mean in this case? "Do you forgive me?" "I yet forgive you."

Speaker is from the UK. Does that mean she has forgiven me, or that she hasn't? I can't tell. @User:Equinox, User:DTLHS, or anybody else know this? Philmonte101 (talk) 05:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * By itself, it means that she forgives you even though your behaviour was unforgivable. With the addition of "don't" (I don't yet forgive you) it means that forgiveness is a future possibility. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Should this sense be added? I see a "despite" sense like what you said as a conjunction, but in this case it is being used as an adverb. Philmonte101 (talk) 05:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In which case it could mean the same as "I am yet to forgive you". (but don't hold your breath) SemperBlotto (talk) 06:13, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * It sounds at least archaic and possibly unacceptable. There is one G.Books hit for "I yet forgive you" and it is from 1878: "although you have crushed and wounded my feelings, and deeply wronged and humiliated me, ... I yet forgive you": this is what Blotto suggested, and here you could replace "yet" with "still". Equinox ◑ 08:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Can it be used this way? "I know that penguins have wings, but I yet find it odd that they cannot fly." Philmonte101 (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * That sounds very strange. You'd use "yet" instead of "but": "I know that penguins have wings, yet I find it odd...". Equinox ◑ 16:58, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

 * I was referring to yet being used as a replacement of the word "still". Maybe it was a bad example, but I took the made-up sentence "I know that penguins have wings, but I still find it odd that they cannot fly." Philmonte101 (talk) 03:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Headstone translation needed
This stone is in our family plot but we do not know who it might be. I would like to know what it says and what language it is in. Here is what is on the stone: IT NY AZ URBAN IF TOROS IS TVAN ET 16. MEG. HALT 1904 11 ?/6  N.BE.PO. No one in the family knows anything about this grave. Thank you!

 * You have the writing all messed up, but it’s Hungarian. It’s a man named "István Toros". Meghalt means he died. 1904 11 ?/6 appears to be a date, something like Nov. 6, 1904. —Stephen (Talk) 11:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

 * The question was asked by someone else, not me. I think the full sentence is this:
 * Itt nyugszik az Úrban ifjabb Toros István, élt 16 évet, meghalt 1904 11 ?/6-n, béke poraira.
 * It(t) ny(ugszik) az Úrban if(jabb) Toros István ET(élt) 16. (évet) meghalt 1904 11 ?/6-n BE(béke) PO(raira)
 * English translation: Here lies in the Lord István Toros Jr. He lived 16 years, died on ?/6-11-1904. Rest in peace. --Panda10 (talk) 12:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Indexes vs. all lemmas
Is there anything which would appear in an index which wouldn't appear in the all lemmas category? I know in theory there is a category for non-lemma terms, but I don't even know what goes there. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Inflected and other (morphologically/phonologically) predictable forms are non-lemmas. Crom daba (talk) 12:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I think of lemmas as the terms that would appear in a regular (paper) dictionary, except for irregular inflections such as . —CodeCat 12:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Requesting some information ( Please move if appropriate)
Hi.

Over on Latin Wikisource I was transcribing thiss:la:Pagina:Faoistin naoṁ-Ṗadraig (1906).djvu/54 andnoted that a number of words have 'u' subst for 'v'. I suspect this is a printers convention, but was asking here for a clarification. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * See About Latin for our preferences ("u" for vowel usage, "v" for consonant usage) - but not everyone agrees with that convention. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder why /ekwus/ is ⟨equus⟩ here and not ⟨eqvus⟩. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 10:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That's explained at WT:ALA. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:14, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Followup to the former.
I was also slowly transcribing the latin portion here s:la:Pagina:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large, 1763.djvu/48 and was using a Latin spelling dictionary that was available for Firefox.

However, there seem to be some more obscure words it didn't recognise and some which seem to be corruptions or coinings(/) of the Medieval period. (In particular ae->e seems to have occurred more than once.).

From the single page I was working on, I put a page in my userspace User:ShakespeareFan00/Latin_terms_in_Ruffhead which as I do more transcription pages, I intend to add to. The assistance of other Wiktionary contributors in confirming the words would be appreciated, not least as I am having to determine if it s,f, or long s in some places in the scan. :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Anatomy vs. Zootomy Context Labels
When describing the anatomy of animals, what is the preferred label to put before a definition? For instance, I labelled one definition "zootomy" at, but I'm not sure if "anatomy" or perhaps a more specific label is better. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to do away with the "Zootomy" label. It's a very rare word, and frankly there's so much overlap between human and nonhuman anatomy that it seems like kind of a pointless distinction for us to be making. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Agree. Not a common word. Gives me nightmares about Webster 1913 and diaeresis. Equinox ◑ 13:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright. I just wasn't sure if we wanted to make a distinction between human and nonhuman anatomy for categorization purposes. I've changed the label at . Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree, and AFAICT the only other entry which used that label was secondary. I've made "zootomy" an alias of "anatomy" so new uses will display "anatomy". - -sche (discuss) 16:53, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Continuing with the admin votes
Hi. Please do not take this the wrong way, but I notice that we're having admin votes like all the time. Don't we have enough admins here already (just being honest)? Why do we keep holding admin votes when there are already plenty of admins who do the right thing for the site; just to name a few, User:Equinox, User:Romanophile, User:Stephen G. Brown, User:Metaknowledge, User:-sche, User:Angr, User:Leasnam, and User:Chuck Entz, among many other helpful ones? It kinda seems like the majority of active users here are admins. Isn't that kind of unbalancing? Don't we need a good balance between regular active users and admins? Philmonte101 (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * LOL, I've noticed that myself. I think regular users are outnumbered by sysops on discussion pages, and anyone who is a regular and long-term contributor here seems to be made an admin. I don't have a problem with it, personally, but it does seem excessive sometimes. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, "admin" is perhaps not the best name. You are probably thinking that "admin" means policeman, boss, or whatever. Sometimes we have to take on that role, but not very often. We make people admins (1) when we trust them, and (2) when they are editing and doing other chores that would benefit from having the buttons, as we say. As admins, they can protect and unprotect files when need be. They can delete or undelete files. Being an admin allows people to work better and more efficiently. Making someone an admin is not so much a benefit to the new admin, it is a benefit to the project, since the admin can do more and do it better. It would be nice if we could make everybody an admin by default, but some people would abuse the power and vandalize the project, and others would screw things up because of immature judgment, etc. So first, we have to be able to trust them. —Stephen (Talk) 15:03, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Stephen. Admins don't have any more authority than anyone else, just more tools. I see nothing wrong at all with having the majority of our most active editors having the admin tools. Deleting mistaken pages and blocking vandals are things any trusted user should be able to do, and only users with the "admin" or "sysop" flag can do that. It's a good thing for most active editors to be given those tools as soon as they've been around long enough that people trust they won't abuse them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Re: "Don't we need a good balance between regular active users and admins?"
 * Rather, there is a balance of power when basically everybody is an admin, because we can decide together and review the decisions of each other concerning whether a page has to be protected, a person has to be blocked, etc. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Entries comprised of the same two words in two languages with entirely different meanings
Does anyone know of any two-worded entries here that have entries in 2 languages that just happen not to be SOP and have entirely different meanings from one another? If you know what I mean. Philmonte101 (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Apparently, here here means "the rough side of a piece of obsidian" in Rapa Nui, but unfortunately in English it's only a misspelling. See if you can pick any more out of here. Keith the Koala (talk) 19:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

What is this character?
What is the character after tʂ and before ˥? The word is the Ersu word for 'star'. ɿ is the closest thing I can find, and WP says "Those studying modern Chinese phonology have used ⟨ɿ⟩ to represent [z̩], a vowel which represents the i in hanzi", and it is plausible that it would be a vowel... but the tail of ɿ doesn't extent below the baseline in the fonts I looked at. Is there a diacritic that might be extending the tail, or is it another letter entirely, or is it just a font flourish? WP's transcription of the Ersu word for 'star' is, and various other books have  ,  , or the same notation as depicted above, complete with the tail going below the baseline. - -sche (discuss) 21:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Maybe ʅ (LATIN SMALL LETTER SQUAT REVERSED ESH)? DTLHS (talk) 22:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

 * From your description the situation seems completely identical to Chinese. This sign is actually representing the absence of a phonemical vowel, which surfaces either as a syllabic (optionally lengthened) coronal fricative (here: [ʂ̩́], [r̩]) or some unstressed central vowel (here: [ə]), which is why you will also find /ɨ/ for /ɿ/ in texts about Chinese. Based on the phonological similarity, it seems reasonable that it's the same glyph in some font variation - or some other glyph meant to represent it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * ps.: That glyph is used in other Sino-Tibetan languages too. At least in Mandarin and Tibetan it basically is just a bothersome way to represent a regular allophone of /i/. (Not 100% sure about Tibetan.) Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Please add the entry for the word Ersu. All I see is a Turkish given name. :/ Philmonte101 (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

 * @DTLHS: The bottom of its 'stem' is flat like that of the 'p', unlike ʅ. OTOH, the stem also goes below the baseline unlike ɿ, so hrmph, it's hard to say / it's not quite either one.
 * @Korn: OK, I'll assume the extra-long tail is just a font flourish. I know I've seen the symbol before...
 * @Philmonte101: done. - -sche (discuss)

 * The tail of ɿ appears long in the Windows Segoe UI and Times New Roman fonts. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:38, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Interesting; on the computer I'm using right now, the tail ends at (not below) the baseline even in Times New Roman. But I think your pictures confirm that the symbol is ɿ; thank you! - -sche (discuss) 02:19, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In Pullum and Ladusaw's Phonetic Symbol Guide (2nd edition, 1996, p. 89) it's called "Long-Leg Turned Iota" and it extends below the baseline. They say of it, "The sound denoted is essentially a syllabic [z], which is why the IPA does not recognize any special symbol for this sound." —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:51, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Aha, thank you! And I see this page says "long leg turned iota (a misnomer)" corresponds to U+027F (and "preferred presentation is with a descender", although their own image of it lacks one, lol). So, I'll use ɿ when quoting the books that use that character (but [z̩] when representing it in IPA). - -sche (discuss) 18:17, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Please be aware that /ɿ/ is a representation of the phonemic principle, namely that the syllable has no vowel phoneme and only a facultative vowel phone. From what you said, if you chose to represent the Ersu word as /tʂz̩/, its actual realiation is still [tʂ̩́], not [tʂź̩]. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

title: Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/August


text:
Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/September

Actual and lexical importance not to have SOPs, for the sake of argument
Hi. I came to ask you this, because apparently on the Danish Wiktionary, there are currently no rules on creating sum-of-parts entries, so technically, creating entries like Danish history would not be against any rules. When I presented the issue to them, none of them seem to see it as an issue. As I've said many times in the past, I'm not good at wording things at all. So I came to ask the English Wiktionary itself about this.

Could someone better explain to me why having SOP entries is particularly bad, for the sake of argument? Particularly, I'm trying to argue with them about this entry, for being lemmacized with the word "the" at the beginning, when really this shouldn't be a part of its lemma, as you should be able to find the definition for the American Dream at the + American Dream. Though the word "the" in English is placed before many proper nouns and common nouns, the word "the" is most of the time not an actual component of the proper noun or common noun. For instance, writing The United States is improper (unless using that in a title or at the beginning of a sentence). I tried to explain this to them, but they wouldn't listen, telling me basically that "they don't care if entries are SOP, as long as they're accurate and 'useful'." Now I'm stuck.

I presented them with some linguistic/grammatical facts, as stated above, but apparently it's not enough. So can someone tell me in their own words what is really really wrong with SOPs, so I could explain this to them in a better way? When any dictionary includes SOP terms, why is it worse than having accurate entries that many users (comparatively) might search for alone? For instance, a lot of users might certainly search for "standardized test", even though it is clearly SOP, because a lot of people may mistakenly consider those two words to be a unit in itself of lexical interest, even though they could find the definitions at standardized + test. I believe it's certainly not good to have SOPs and am all about burning them in fire when I see them, but apparently they don't think the same thing as me, so how can I convince them that SOP terms should generally be disallowed there, or in any Wiktionary for that matter? Philmonte101 (talk) 23:25, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Some arguments against SOPs:
 * WT:SOP is a section of WT:CFI that aims to explain why SOPs are unwanted.
 * Visit WT:RFD and search "SOP". Being SOP is used there as a valid argument for deletion of entries.
 * Though it may sound like slippery slope, if we allowed any SOPs there would be infinite possibilities: red paint, blue paint, yellow paint, amazing paint, Martian paint... Your Danish history seems similar.

 * We do have a few SOPs, though:
 * Category:English non-idiomatic translation targets for translation purposes
 * Category:English phrasebook for "how much does it cost?" and other phrases

 * See also User talk:Stephen G. Brown/2015 and search for my first message in the conversation (a question to ). Stephen raised some interesting points about the inclusion/deletion of some technical terms ("For example, legal terms, business terms, petroleum technology, medical terms, aircraft terms") that might be perceived as SOPs and would likely get deleted here, but may have value to be kept, for people that don't already know the English term. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:50, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * 1. Waste of time and resources that contributors could use on better things. 2. Language is by nature productive: you can invent infinite sentences. Why isn't there a maths book that lists the answers to 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 1+5...? Exactly. Equinox ◑ 14:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Here's a few reasons:
 * Diluting content: an SOP entry is just repackaging of content from the entries for the parts. Someone who clicks on "green leaf" in the "Derived terms" for "green" or "leaf" is going to wonder why they were invited to visit the entry when it has nothing about "green" that they didn't already know from the "green" entry. The only information that wouldn't be duplication between the SOP entry and the parts is encyclopedic content that results in bloated, wordy entries
 * Maintenance: if someone edits the "green" entry, they probably won't think to change the "green leaf" entry, so they get out of sync. Or they change the "green leaf" entry, and don't propagate that change to the "green" or the "leaf" entry. A related issue emerges when the creator of an SOP entry is unaware of information in the entries for the parts, or one of the parts makes a statement about usage that's refuted by the SOP entry.
 * Overloading of linking sections and categories: "Derived terms" and "Hyponyms" can get really lengthy as it is, but SOP terms would make it far, far worse.
 * Loss of focus: SOP terms are often easily paraphrased, with large numbers of attested variations. With no notability requirement, it would be hard to protect against an astronomical proliferation of almost-identical entries, with no easy way to distinguish the informative, idiomatic entries from the 14th variation on something no one cares about.
 * There's more, but I've already spent more time than I should have... Chuck Entz (talk) 00:46, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Can someone explain this joke?
There isn't really a context. "So, this medical care-giver of indeterminate gender-- because nurses can be male or female-- says to his or her disabled-- or should I say, differently-abled patient-- 'Why do you have a penguin on your head? They're endangered.'" It's an antijoke; it's a joke that is supposed to be funny because it's not funny. But what's the catch to it? Anybody see it? Philmonte101 (talk) 18:08, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I think it's just making fun of political correctness. The penguin punchline is either surreal nonsense or continuing the parody toward people who care about the natural environment ("ecofreaks"). Equinox ◑ 18:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

A word for "sexist against your own gender"?
Is there a word out their that means "extremely mean or sexist towards ones own gender, or treating your own gender worse than the opposite gender", or a word for a person that is like that? I imagine it'd be slang if it exists, but does anyone know? Philmonte101 (talk) 18:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Doubt it. But you could use misandrist or misogynist, depending on gender of the person. Equinox ◑ 18:21, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * "internalized sexism" comes to mind. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I would understand "internalized sexism" to be sexism that has become deeply rooted within a person, and not that it is directed at any particular sex. --WikiTiki89 14:02, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I added a new sense of internalized with 3 quotations. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Those might just as well be interpreted as meaning "something that a person has been told so many times that they consider it their own opinion", which is what I would consider at least the most obvious sense, if not the only one. This is also the most logical sense, since the term originates as the past participle of .__Gamren (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, the fact that you could say "she has internalised her sexism" makes the special adjective sense seem a bit overspecific. Equinox ◑ 18:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, I'm not convinced that this is an adjective as opposed to the verb form, sexism (etc) that one has internalized in the manner Gamren outlines. Certainly one also speaks of women internalizing misogyny, where "internalizing" is clearly a verb form. I think "internalized" is probably the verb form, but are there tests of adjectivity that might distinguish it as an adjective from a past participle, the way there are to distinguish adjectives from nouns? I can find e.g. "very internalized", "advertising now tend[s] to be more internalized than enforced", but I'm not yet convinced that rules out verbal use, though the second one might. - -sche (discuss) 18:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

 * It's definitely a verb form, but it is also an adjective, and that is how it is used in those citations. All English participles may be used as adjectives, but are not necessarily. English doesn't distinguish grammatically, but e.g. Danish inflects adjectives for gender and number, and German furthermore inflects for case and the presence or absence of articles/pronouns. In general, you may tell adjectives from verbs by noting whether they describe the state or quality of some thing, or an action undertaken.__Gamren (talk) 09:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Inflection tables and form-of entries for verbs that show subject and object agreement
Countless languages have verbs that show subject agreement, but there are some that have object agreement as well. An example is Zulu, where both subject and object show congruency affixes for first/second person singular and plural, as well as any of a dozen noun classes in the third person. This means that there's a potential verb form for any pairing of these, as well as forms with no object affix for intransitive uses. Zulu is not a polysynthetic language in the way American languages are.

My question is how these should be handled in inflection tables and when dealing with inflected form entries. Inflection tables would get way too big if we listed all combinations, but what is currently done with Zulu verb tables (listing forms with no object affix only) doesn't seem satisfactory either. As far as inflected forms go, I presume that these forms can be included since they are legitimate verb forms, albeit that there are many of them. —CodeCat 18:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * For tables, We're just gonna have to have really large tables, similar to the one at Appendix:Hebrew verbs. For form-of entries, we can do something similar to שלחני. --WikiTiki89 18:52, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The tables for Zulu would be much longer though because of all the noun classes. See, and that's just with the subject affixes. The object affixes actually go in the "middle" of those forms, after the object affix. For example: , , . —CodeCat 19:06, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

See also Basque. — JohnC5 19:09, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't even know how to interpret that table. What do NOR and NORI stand for? —CodeCat 19:18, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeeeeeah... Those are the traditional designation for the cases with which the verb agrees (nor: absolutive, nori: dative, nork: ergative. Like in this table). So a nor-nori table shows the forms with absolutive and dative agreement. — JohnC5 20:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * See Bulgarian conjugations: . —Stephen (Talk) 00:45, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Most of those are actually periphrastic forms that have no business being in an inflection table. And half of what remains is all the possible inflections of the participles, which I'd argue belong on the participle entry. —CodeCat 01:05, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I've considered this issue at length, and realised it was beyond my wikitable abilities. All the Bantu languages have this problem, and none of them have satisfactory infrastructure to handle it at the current time. I think that the best way is to have collapsed sections within an autocollapsed table, so that it doesn't get too unwieldy for the user unless they choose to open all sections at once. It should be possible to view all valid inflected forms, though, instead of leaving some out like the Zulu templates currently do. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

talador in en and fr
English is translating from Spanish, French is translating from occitan, not sure how to add the missing entries for other languages Elinruby (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you saying you want to add the Occitan? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:58, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

 * The only entry on our Wiktionary is the Spanish word . You can add Occitan on the page, above the Spanish. On the French Wiktionary, they have the Occitan entry fr:talador, but not the Spanish. If you want to add the Spanish there, it goes on the fr:talador page. If you want to add  on the German Wiktionary, that belongs at de:talador. Which other languages do you want to include? —Stephen (Talk) 22:57, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Latin Problem
It seems to me that you may have over pedanted the macrons in your Latin interpretation. "esc" growth additives should not get a long mark, nominative endings should not get a long mark (this is for stranger words, usually taken from Greek (I say this to differentiate from Latin) and some 3rd declensions) unless your talking about the 2nd declension plural (i).

 * Based on what evidence? — JohnC5 07:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The difference between possessive and genitive
I've looked all over the place on Google for an answer to this, but have gotten very little information. What I've gathered is that apparently a possessive is actually a genitive itself, and that a number of genitives are possessive, but not all of them. Other than that, I've gotten little to no information other than "they're used in different scenarios". Specifically, I'm trying to find examples of how a possessive is different from genitive in English and German, so I'll make two subsections. I think what is considered a genitive and possessive may be slightly different depending on the language.

 * The possessive is a type of genitive. English nouns have possessive forms, but not genitives. Examples of possessives include: Richard's tie, the country's borders, the king's ransom. German, OTOH, has a true genitive case, and it can be used like the English possessive, but also for other things that the possessive does not handle.

 * Er wohnt außerhalb der Stadt. — He lives outside the city. (außerhalb governs the genitive case, so "der Stadt" is in the genitive. However, nothing in this sentence is possessed.)
 * Hartholzmöbel bedürfen einer besondern Pflege. — Hardwood furniture needs special care. (bedürfen governs the genitive, so "einer Pflege" is in the genitive. Nothing here is possessed.)
 * Sie ist des Mordes schuldig. — She is guilty of the murder. (schuldig takes the genitive, so "des Mordes" is in genitive.)
 * Eines Tages besuchen wir München. — Someday we'll visit Munich. (genitive to express indefinite time: "eines Tages" is genitive. Literally, of a day we'll visit Munich, to show indefiniteness. No possession.)
 * Susans Kusine kommt zu Besuch. — Susan's cousin comes to visit. (this is the genitive of possession, so Susan possesses a cousin.) —Stephen (Talk) 17:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Eines Tages" is interesting because you can also say "eines Nachts" even though the genitive of "eine Nacht" is einer Nacht. In the last case, I wouldn't call it possession either: Susan doesn't possess her cousin in any jurisdiction where slavery is illegal. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

English
Genitives and possessives are formed by "of" and "'s". But I have yet to see some example sentences that make a clear differentiation between genitives and possessives. What's the difference? PseudoSkull (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Bill's car (possession)
 * a pound of flesh
 * My music (possession)
 * a piece of pie
 * doctor's office (possession)
 * speaking of dinner, let's eat.
 * baby's diaper (possession)
 * I'm out of time. —Stephen (Talk) 17:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

German
I am at point A of learning this language. I'm at the very basic stuff. I can read a bit of it naturally, since I read in other languages all the time regardless of my understanding of them, (just for the sheer fun of it), but I'm trying to learn more, especially so I can add entries here, and because a lot of online communities are in German and it'd be nice to understand them and communicate with users on them. I'm especially interested in knowing the difference between genitive and possessive here because genitive and possessive are often two completely different forms. What's the difference? PseudoSkull (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * In German, the genitive is a single case form, while the possessive is a lemma in its own right that inflects for case, including the genitive. —CodeCat 17:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

In general
For any comments about the two cases in general. PseudoSkull (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * 'Genitive' is the name of a case: a marking on nouns, pronouns, or adjectives. 'Possessive' has two uses; one is the name of a function, that of showing possession, and the other is an alternative name for the genitive case. Its use as the name of a case may have been a well-meaning reaction in English when around 1900 (?) people started accepting that English didn't use Latin grammar, and they started talking about the subjective, objective, and possessive cases of the English pronouns.

 * A case typically has multiple uses, and possession is the prototypical use of the genitive (my car, the woman's book). But examples like my memory and the woman's past are hardly possessions in any true sense: the genitive covers more relationships than 'possessive' ones. Conversely, possession (and similar broader relations) can be marked using an 'of' phrase, which is not genitive; it's not a marking on the noun/pronoun.

 * In Turkish there's a genitive case, but there's another marking that it is useful to call possessive. So gives eli 'her/his hand'. A definite possessor is indicated by putting it in the genitive, so  becomes kadının 'the woman's', and these combine as kadının eli 'the woman's hand', with (what I want to call) both a genitive and a possessive, two different functions and forms. --Hiztegilari (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Many IE languages have separate possessive adjectives, and these adjectives inflect for case just like any other adjective would. That includes the genitive case. In many languages this is restricted to possessives paired with personal pronouns, but Slavic languages have possessive adjectives derived from personal names as well. —CodeCat 17:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

 * The possessive is one of the functions of the genitive case. The possessive itself is not a case. Some other things that the genitive case can do that make it a case (rather than simply a possessive) are being the object of certain prepositions (examples from Russian:, , ) and even of certain verbs (. Possession itself doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ownership, so Susan's cousin, Susan's birthplace, Susan's favorite restaurant, etc. have nothing to do with "ownership", but are still possessive. Consider even the dog's owner, which does not have to imply that the dog owns the owner in order to be called a possessive. --WikiTiki89 13:03, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

"Category:English supposedly 0-syllable words"
What does this mean? Many of the terms listed seem to have many syllables...? PseudoSkull (talk) 02:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That was a mistake. I edited the module so the category redlink should disappear from all entries later. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Zealandic
Should zea be treated as a distinct language, or as vls or nl? I have no preference. I notice that it currently has a code and a few translations, but no entries or category have been created yet. I wanted to check before creating the category. Pinging User:CodeCat as the person most likely to have knowledge / resources to answer the question. (Btw see Talk:Zealandic for old discussion of the name.) - -sche (discuss) 06:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia says it is, linguistically, a dialect of West Flemish. So I'd go with that. —CodeCat 12:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Cunt
For reconstructed Old English words like, should they be added to any special categories? UtherPendrogn (talk) 18:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you mean categories like this: Category:Old English reconstructed nouns. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah right, didn't realise it was automatic. UtherPendrogn (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Borrowing complete inflections from other languages
I imagine this would be rather nonstandard, but are there any words that are borrowed from other languages with massive conjugation/inflection tables for words, where the inflections are all also borrowed? I've seen Latin plurals being borrowed from Latin, but I'd feel it'd be an interesting case to see an "attested" (3 or more sources) case of English speakers using exotic Polish loan word noun inflections in sentences, or using any conjugated French verb form in a sentence that borrows that verb, for example. Any ideas? PseudoSkull (talk) 02:48, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It happens often enough. You mentioned Polish, which reminded me that different numbers require different cases in Polish, and these are often transferred over into English as appropriate. Our entry at doesn't make that clear, but see Polish zloty. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 03:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That section is about Polish, though, not English. I can't imagine English speakers borrowing case forms from inflecting languages, though German sometimes used to, at least in a highly literary/religious register, where, for example you'll find and  as the genitive of  and  respectively, and sometimes maybe even  and  as the dative and  and  as the accusative. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Latin itself frequently borrowed Greek inflections along with the words. —CodeCat 10:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the point is that a language is unlikely to borrow grammatical structures it doesn't use (it's happened, but it's rare). We may borrow individual forms for both singular and plural, but not ablative (not as ablative, anyway). Chuck Entz (talk) 14:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * As a native code-switcher between English and Russian, I have noticed that when I use a Russian noun in an English sentence, I almost always use the nominative case no matter how I'm using it (like "I found the штучка", rather than "I found the штучку"). When I use an English noun in a Russian sentence, I often add case endings to it, even if this results in very unusual phonetic combinations (like palatalized "th", or ы after a vowel). --WikiTiki89 18:31, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

STOP.
CodeCat, I get you have some sort of personal vendetta against me, but can you stop deleting ATTESTED words? That'd be pretty useful, as they are quite literally ATTESTED. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Old_English/ueleda UtherPendrogn (talk) 21:51, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If it's attested, why is it in the reconstruction namespace? —CodeCat 21:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Also, CodeCat didn't delete it, but nominated it for deletion, which means there is a discussion in which you can participate to show that it shouldn't be deleted. --WikiTiki89 21:55, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * A discussion I wasn't even aware of. I'm not pinged, and not even warned. If I wasn't now forced to paranoically check everyone's contribution pages, in about a week's time it would probably have been nixed. As to it being under reconstruction, the wiki does that automatically when creating the page from another page (in this case, I created it from the Gaulish page) for some bizarre reason. Also, please leave a note on my Talk page? I'm here most of the time and will happily explain or rectify the error, rather than destroying the page which benefits no one. Real life example. If a book has a typo in it, do you burn the book? UtherPendrogn (talk) 21:59, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The RFD template has a link to the discussion. —CodeCat 22:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant, I still need to look at the page, which means I can only know about it accidentally, by chancing upon the page. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ever heard of the Special:Watchlist? --WikiTiki89 22:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * By the way, in case you're not aware, attested means we can find quotations of the term. References alone won't help. See WT:ATTEST. --WikiTiki89 22:06, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Completely irrelevant. —CodeCat 22:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Proof of the term is irrelevant?!
 * It proves nothing at all for Wiktionary's purposes. Proof to Wiktionary that the term exists is to show an actual text, written in the language in question, where the word is used. See WT:CFI. —CodeCat 22:13, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Fine, have the quote by Tacitus himself: "[8] Memoriae proditur quasdam acies inclinatas iam et labantes a feminis restitutas constantia precum et obiectu pectorum et monstrata comminus captivitate, quam longe inpatientius feminarum suarum nomine timent, adeo ut efficacius obligentur animi civitatum, quibus inter obsides puellae quoque nobiles imperantur. Inesse quin etiam sanctum aliquid et providum putant, nec aut consilia earum aspernantur aut responsa neglegunt. Vidimus sub divo Vespasiano Veledam diu apud plerosque numinis loco habitam; sed et olim Albrunam et compluris alias venerati sunt, non adulatione nec tamquam facerent deas." This was his rendering of the Germanic equivalent Ueleda. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That's Latin, not Old English. --WikiTiki89 22:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuKzt7p-MnM UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a video, not an Old English text. —CodeCat 22:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * uelet-, 'voyant, poète' Ueleda, nom d'une femme sacrée et prophétesse, vénérée par les Germains selon Tacite (Germanie 8). Rapproché dès le début des études scientifiques du nom du poètevoyant irlandais fili, gén. filed (*/jelëts / */jeletos), ogam. Uelitas gén. ; racine */jel'voir' : gaI!. gweled 'voir', bret. guelet 'la vue' (*/jeleto-), US 277, SOI 244, IEW 1136. Ce que Tacite rapporte comme un NP était en fait un nom de fonction celtique ('voyante, prophétesse, poètes se') passé chez les Germains et adapté à leur phonétique (-t- > -d-). Le mot est peut-être présent dans l'inscription du Mans sur tablette de plomb (L-104) UlIL[lI]TS = uelets. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read WT:ATTEST. --WikiTiki89 22:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I literally can't handle this anymore. TACITUS uses the term. V is, I'd say arguably, but that would be the biggest understatement ever pronounced. "is" doesn't even fit the bill. V is literally the very ESSENCE, the EPITOME of U. V=U. V²=U². V IS U. Veleda is Ueleda. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Look, if you don't comply with our policies, you'll soon find yourself blocked. --WikiTiki89 22:19, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I can handle your policies, not your attitude. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you actually read WT:ATTEST? --WikiTiki89 22:24, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Not helpful. WT:Attest neither mentions the exemptions for low attestation languages nor does it say anything about when and when not a recording of the term by a non-native speaker (such as Tacitus' quotation or the Crimean Gothic wordlist) is acceptable. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Didn't it mention those things before? Old English is attested enough that we don't accept mentions, but I think we accept single attestations (but I'm not sure). --WikiTiki89 22:37, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm just pointing out that the ATTEST section alone will not help a confused user in this case and I was actually hoping you as a veteran user would have a guideline at hand when non-native recordings are a valid option, for my personal interest. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:42, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There are some languages for which we allow mentions. Non-native recordings count as mentions. We have a list of these languages somewhere, but I can't remember where. --WikiTiki89 22:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Votes/2012-04/Languages_with_limited_documentation - This vote passed but is not implemented. I think that's part of the current issue. I wanted to quietly implement it but don't have the editing rights. I strongly urge that the list you mention be linked somewhere in the CFI, preferably at a place where one would expect it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what makes you think the vote wasn't implemented. WT:ATTEST, which is part of WT:CFI, says "For languages well documented on the Internet, three citations in which a term is used is the minimum number for inclusion in Wiktionary. For terms in extinct languages, one use in a contemporaneous source is the minimum, or one mention is adequate subject to the below requirements." Old English is an extinct language, so we need one use in a contemporaneous source. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, right. What made me think it wasn't implemented is that I was scanning for the original phrasing of the vote. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 23:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

So what's attested is a Latin proper noun with a possibly Celtic etymology. Nothing to do with Old English at all. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Move back the fucking page
You've gone against what everyone else said and undid my latinisation. I suggest you move back the fucking page. Your fucking vapid, bullshit excuse of "we use old italic script" is quite simply wrong. UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:24, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course I undid your Latinization. Lepontic entries should be written in Old Italic, not in Latin, and everyone else but you accepts that. And your little quip above about "Not as big a mess as when your abortion failed" is sufficient grounds for a permanent ban from Wiktionary as far as I'm concerned. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * No, read the fucking discussion about it. Lepontic entries should be latinised. UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:35, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Tone down the rhetoric, personal attacks and profanity have no place here. - TheDaveRoss 14:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * fuck and cunt are words of the english language, I'll use them on a language site. Also, I guess what they said about Wikipedia was true then. Stalinist communism, "everyone is equal" but some are more equal than others. Small number of elite control articles and destroy any newcomer's work, while the proles think they have power. Block me if you want, I really don't give much of a fuck if it means I can avoid ever speaking to you yankee cunts ever again. Also, just to point out CodeCat literally called me an idiot twice. Where's his block? UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and blocked. Uther: You can use whichever words you choose, but you cannot use them to attack others.  I think you will find that newcomers who are interested in engaging in collaboration and constructive discussion have few problems with the "elites," those who instead resort to personal attacks and refuse to engage in discussion tend to create enemies rather quickly. - TheDaveRoss 14:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with a block. This user is more trouble than they're worth at the moment. —CodeCat 14:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The user is sending me abuse on email now. Can their email priviliges be revoked too? —CodeCat 15:00, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I updated the block to prevent email. - TheDaveRoss 15:02, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

So I went to sleep last night looking forward to the carefully researched argument about the attestations of Lepontic characters that I was going to write up today after work, but now it seems useless. I guess I'll just have to move all the entries over to Ital later today. I'm fine with Romanization entries, I suppose, but only if they link back to the main article.

In other news, can anyone verify these declension templates? They seem somewhat in line with what's on Lexicon Leponticum, but Uther seemed not to distinguish between masculine and neuter for o-stems and would use accusative singulars as lemma-forms. Does anyone have access to the listed sources? — JohnC5 19:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I recently remembered the German phrase "mit kind und Kegel" which means "with child and 'bastard'", having the connotation of bringing all the folks, or the "kit and kaboodle". This is my sense; that, although the concept is common across languages, sometimes the origin of a specific phrase is obscured.
 * Here is a table of known inflectional endings for Lepontic. Much less ambitious, and much less implausible, than the tables created by our learned friend. I wonder if it's really worthwhile even having inflection tables for Lepontic; it has such a small corpus that there are probably very few if any nouns attested in more than one case. I also see our friend has decided that the accusative singular should be the lemma form, hence (originally created at ), even though the word is attested in the nominative singular as 𐌖𐌋𐌊𐌏𐌔 (ulkos). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we should copy that table into WT:AXLP and then delete those inflectional tables. At some point, I'll move all those terms back into Ital. I also notice the description Uther left when moving 𐌖𐌋𐌊𐌏𐌌 to the last: “We've decided to use the latinised form.” Who was the “we”? It's all very funny to me. — JohnC5 18:07, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We're obviously dealing with someone who's bright enough to understand subjects that are over the heads of the people they normally encounter, so they've never had anyone call them on their errors- and they're completely unable to handle it when they do. Without that feedback, it's hard to develop the critical thinking and intellectual self-discipline needed to realize their potential. What a waste! Chuck Entz (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I've moved the word in question to the attested form . We need to check all the words with LexLep before moving them to Ital so that we move them to the actually attested forms rather than whatever form our friend created them with. I'm not sure he really does understand these subjects though; it took him a long time to grasp that the only way a Goidelic word can be descended from Proto-Brythonic is if it's a loanword. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:40, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For lack of a better word, "understand" will have to do for now. They understand at some level what they're reading, but they're ignorant of a lot that people who read such things should know already, so they don't really understand anything at a deeper level. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I've now added the attested declension information to WT:AXLP and nominated all five declension tables for deletion. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:03, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Wrong script
The wrong script is being redirected to on the lepontic page. The name of the page is irrelevant, there's no point changing the name of the page until the issue is resolved.

LEPONTIC SCRIPT: 𐌀 	𐌄 	𐌉 	𐌊 	𐌋 	𐌌 	𐌍 	𐌏 	𐌐 	𐌓 	𐌔 	𐌕 	𐌈 	𐌖 	𐌅 	𐌗 	𐌆 A 	E 	I 	K 	L 	M 	N 	O 	P 	R 	S 	T 	Θ 	U 	V 	X 	Z

OLD ITALIC SCRIPT: (given by JohnC5)

𐌀 	𐌂 	𐌃 	𐌄 	𐌅 	𐌆 	𐌇 	𐌈 	𐌉 	𐌋 	𐌌 	𐌍 	𐌐 	𐌑 	𐌓 	𐌔 	𐌕 	𐌖 	𐌘 	𐌙 	𐌚 A 	C 	D 	E 	V 	Z 	H 	Θ 	I 	L 	M 	N 	P 	Ś 	R 	S 	T 	U 	Φ 	Ψ 	F

Additionally, JohnC5 erroneously put 𐌗 = 𐌗 rather than 𐌗 = x, and that was blamed on me for some odd reason. UtherPendrogn (talk) 05:10, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Now, shall we keep reverting each other or act like adults and actually come up with a solution? I suggest adding Lepontic to "Lepontic Transliteration". Despite the name, Lepontic is... well... absent. Literally absent, from that page. UtherPendrogn (talk) 05:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Hmmmm, I'm not really sure where to start here.... The Old Italic script was added to the Unicode Consortium in order to allow the display and encoding of several different languages of Europe, among them Lepontic. The Old Italic Unicode block may be easily used to encode Lepontic lemmata and the chart given at AP:Old Italic script describes very accurately how these characters should be used for this process. If this chart is in any way mystifying or incomprehensible, please specify how it may be rectified. But to be clear, the Old Italic script page contains all the rules for transcribing all the languages which use Old Italic and its variant forms.
 * As to the χ vs. x issue, I accidentally copy pasted a similar but incorrect character, for which I apologize. You are certainly not to blame.
 * In a related note, for which I do intend to blame you, you do not understand how links work on this project. Please learn the Wiktionary's linking rules (available at WT:LINKS). There is and there will never be a page, and the shortcut   breaks the convention of every other language description page on this project.
 * Lepontic is not the only language to share its transliteration page with others, and your attempts to gain the moral high ground through pretended reconciliation belie the fact that you are still wildly misunderstand the way this project functions. You also fail to realize that the page  is only put at that address so that the headword module will point to that location in entries that have transliterations. These links frequently redirect to other locations. — JohnC5 05:35, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Lets see: copying equivalent letters from your lists next to each other, we get 𐌀𐌀𐌄𐌄𐌉𐌉𐌋𐌋𐌌𐌌𐌍𐌍𐌐𐌐𐌔𐌔𐌕𐌕𐌈𐌈𐌖𐌖𐌅𐌅𐌆𐌆. Can you tell which are from your Lepontic list and which are from your Old Italic list? There are a few Lepontic letters that don't have a direct Old Italic equivalent: 𐌊𐌏𐌗, but they all belong to the same Old Italic Unicode block as the others. Likewise, 𐌂𐌇𐌑𐌘𐌙𐌚 are found in Old Italic, but not in Lepontic. So, rather than Lepontic being entirely absent, there are exactly 3 characters that are in your Lepontic list that aren't in your Old Italic list. Also, there are no instances of Lepontic letters that are different from their Old Italic equivalents, just letters missing from one list or the other. I don't really see a problem here. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Pretend reconciliations are your domain, I'm only interested in rectifying this fucking situation. UtherPendrogn (talk) 10:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I cut out the middleman and just corrected the Old Italic Script appendix. UtherPendrogn (talk) 10:23, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You're not interested in rectifying the situation. You're only interested in making it worse, which is pretty much all you've been doing since you joined Wiktionary. You make mistake after mistake, and get stubborn and aggressive when called out on it. You refuse to listen to anyone's opinion but your own, you refuse to acknowledge that there are standards in place for how ancient languages are represented, you refuse to understand how historical linguistics works, and you make enormous messes that other people then have to clean up after you. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:47, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Not as big a mess as when your abortion failed. UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:25, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * if you actually stopped dictating to people and listened, you can't separate the Unicode for Lepontic and Old Italic. It's like me saying I want to use a different encoding for French and English so chat and chat no longer appear on the same page. I can't do it! Using the same script does not mean literally identical letters in every language. Like English has no ñ (Spanish) or þ (Icelandic) but that does not mean they don't use the same script. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:37, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Look, you’ve not understood the issue at all. It had the WRONG Lepontic equivalents of the letters, and Angr has now posted incorrect, completely unnatested forms of the words. He also used some innacurate site that doesn’t provide sources as a reference, which is rather odd. And despite everyone agreeing Old Italic would be best, save two people, I got overuled (but now, ironically, it’s the classic “THAT’S A TERRIBLE IDEA! Hey, I had an idea...” and then reuse the idea of the guy you gave shit to. Now, as I mentioned, there are entries for both Lepontic (Or Angr’s incorrect form of Old Italic) and Romanised words, which link to each other. You know, since there are about 2 people ON EARTH who can actually read Lepontic (or Old Italic) script, or remember the Unicodes to type them. It’s absolutely goddamn useless to have them in the Lepontic form at all. Old English words aren’t in Futhorc, are they? And Proto-Norse words are given in both Elder Futhark and their romanised forms. Whatever, I’m clearly always going to get overruled on this. Do whatever you want. I won’t post any more words as long as their entries get raped by people who don’t know what they’re doing for a language they’ve not researched. Also, now I've just been mocked by JohnC5 for using the "wrong letter". If he spent more than five seconds on the Lepontic script page on wikipedia, it shows acute S is shown by the letter Z (or its Lepontic script equivalent and not M). UtherPendrogn (talk) 16:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Doesn't provide sources as a reference"? It provides photographs of the inscriptions, e.g., which pretty clearly shows that the ś letter is a allograph of 𐌑, not of 𐌆. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Let's play "find the 𐌑".

LEPONTIC SCRIPT: 𐌀 	𐌄 	𐌉 	𐌊 	𐌋 	𐌌 	𐌍 	𐌏 	𐌐 	𐌓 	𐌔 	𐌕 	𐌈 	𐌖 	𐌅 	𐌗 	𐌆 A 	E 	I 	K 	L 	M 	N 	O 	P 	R 	S 	T 	Θ 	U 	V 	X 	Z

Good fucking luck.
 * Found it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:31, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Found it again. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Then why not state so when editing the pages in Lepontic Lemmas, and edit the Wikipedia page? UtherPendrogn (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

This is true. If you don't like it, don't edit the pages.
The letter 𐌑 does NOT EXIST in Lepontic. No existio. Ca n'existe pas. It doesn't exist. Never in the history of this universe, 14000000000 years, has a Lepontic man written 𐌑. Yet you have the unmitigated temerity to mock me afterwards. So please, for the love of God, change it back to the correct 𐌆. As stated by wikipedia, 𐌆 is used for ts, which is the letter ś. The letter ś should ABSOLUTELY NOT be represented by 𐌑.

Good day. UtherPendrogn (talk) 16:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're wrong. 𐌆 is a different letter. Look at the inscriptions at Lexicon Leponticum. Granted, the letter transcribed ś looks a bit more like the rune ᛗ than like the rune ᛖ or the Latin letter M in most inscriptions, but in the Old Italic alphabet they're just allographs of the same glyph. 𐌑 is the correct Unicode character to use. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:57, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You're wrong. UtherPendrogn (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * *makes more popcorn* Keith the Koala (talk) 20:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation between parentheses ?
Many articles show pronunciation between parentheses, using a system seemingly different than IPA (e.g. թիթեռնիկ). Yet I see nothing relevant in Pronunciation.

Which system does it refer to ? American phonetic alphabet ?

Skippy le Grand Gourou (talk) 08:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

 * It's transliteration/romanization. Click on the little easily-ignorable (and probably often-ignored) blue dot between "թիթեռնիկ" and "(tʿitʿeṙnik)" for an explanation of that language's transliteration system. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow, after reading that comment, I spent a minute looking for that dot before I found it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 09:44, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow indeed… Please, somebody, change this presentation !
 * Thanks suzukaze. Skippy le Grand Gourou (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I too had no idea that the little raised dot between a non-Latin entry and its transliteration linked to the transliteration explanation page. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:16, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Hunh. An Easter egg. Would never have guessed that. --Hiztegilari (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For reference, this behavior is defined in lines 299-301 of Module:headword. — JohnC5 15:52, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Near the end of the  function in case line numbers change. --WikiTiki89 16:09, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Two Celtic questions
One wikitionary specific,the othet one out of curiosity.

-The Celts probably had a God for most natural features. I think we know of a mere twenty or so british deities, when there should be one per river, lake and mountain. Is it possible, based on the names of these features, to guess what the God(dess) may have been called? Like the river Leith in Scotland, could it come from the God Lleudd like the Thames comes from the Goddess Tamesis (or whatever the PC form is)? -Should we reconstruct some Pictish words? The attested ones give some infomation that could allow a basic reconstruction, with features like (as far as I can tell) k and kw > q notably (PC makkwos can be attested on Pictish stones as maqqo or the abbreviated (or different declension?) maqq. UtherPendrogn (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Common Slavic words in etymologies
A lot of Romanian words mention Common Slavic words in etymologies. However, the language is variously called Proto-Slavic, Common Slavic or just Slavic and the words are unlinked (see, and other words in Category:Romanian terms derived from Slavic languages for examples). How should these be formatted? I usually don't change them when I edit entries because I'm not sure how they should be treated. Redboywild (talk) 12:51, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We call the language Proto-Slavic and its code is . We write ŭ and ĭ as ъ and ь. —CodeCat 12:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Should the words be linked and have an asterisk? And is it okay if I leave the spelling as it is? I don't really know anything about Proto-Slavic. Redboywild (talk) 12:56, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You should link with an asterisk, and fix those two letters. —CodeCat 12:59, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * See About Proto-Slavic. If you're really unable to figure out the spelling, you can convert what's there to the tr parameter in an empty link, such as sla-pro or ro. Actually, is the one who should have asked that question, so you wouldn't have had to. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:55, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll start using the standard templates and changing the two letters User:CodeCat mentioned and the ones listed at WT:ASLA, but I'm sure some mistakes will slip through. Maybe there should be an automatic check for disallowed characters that would mark the entry for attention. I could use the tr parameter, but then someone would have to add the proper spelling at some point, and I don't want to burden them with more work if most spellings are correct. Redboywild (talk) 15:11, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Entries for Japanese verb forms
Category:Japanese verb forms has 97 entries. How come we don't have a lot of entries for Japanese conjugations for every verb, like 歩きません, 歩いた and so on? Did we actively decide not to create these entries, or it's just that nobody bothered to do it yet? (and Category:Japanese adjective forms has 3 entries) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

 * User_talk:Suzukaze-c might be relevant. (I for one am interested in seeing verb forms here...) —suzukaze (t・c) 20:34, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

How to make Template:en-past of point to a particular etymology
For example, at wist:

Verb

I want the en-past template to link to Etymology 2, the verb form of wit. Is that possible?

SmallRepair (talk) 20:17, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Mark the sense with, and then give the  parameter to . —CodeCat 20:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That worked perfectly. SmallRepair (talk) 20:58, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Policy for adding words that I can't find in a public dictionary.
I want to add the word Alleleu, meaning "Irish English, rare, Originally and chiefly Irish English. Expressing distress, horror, surprise, etc." An example from Carlyle: "[H]e reels death-stricken; rushes to the pavement, scattering it with his blood and brains!—Alleleu!" But I can't find the definition in the Websters 1913 or TCD 1911, only from the above link. Can I not, therefore, add it? SmallRepair (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If you have citations for a word, but can't actually figure out what it means, then you can place the citations on the citation page as usual, and then create the entry but use as the definition. This adds a request for a definition that someone else (or you, if you end up figuring it out) can fulfill later. —CodeCat 21:25, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I apologize for being a bit obtuse, but are you saying I can use the definition supplied by en.oxforddictionaries.com as long as a cite it, ala Wikipedia? SmallRepair (talk) 21:28, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * No, that would be a copyright violation. By citations I mean in the Wiktionary sense: examples of usage taken from WT:CFI-compliant sources. See Citations for more info. I was under the impression that you already had some citations, like your example from Carlyle (that would be 1 of 3 citations needed for English). I thought you were merely unsure what to write as the definition of the word. That's why I suggested using as a placeholder. —CodeCat 21:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

pindent
In an old book entitled The whole Body of Cookery dissected (1682) there is the following recipe. Any idea what pindent could be? (From the recipe, it seems to describe something like a fritter or pancake.)
 * How to make ſmall Pindents to fry for firſt Courſe.
 * Take one pint of Flour, and as much grated bread, eight Eggs, caſt away the whites, or five thereof, beat it to a thick batter, with Cream, Roſewater and Sack; ſeaſon it with beaten Cinamon, Ginger, Nutmeg and Mace, put to it a handful of parboyled Currans, and a handful of minced Marrow, if not Beef-ſuet, add Salt, then let your pan be hot with clarified Butter or ſweet ſuet, then drop it in by ſpoonfuls, and when they are fryed on both ſides, diſh them up on a diſh and plate, and ſcrape on ſugar: you may add a handful of ſugar to the batter. —Stephen (Talk) 09:19, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Here is a video of people making the recipe. They say they also tried to research the word and couldn't find it anywhere else but in that book. One of the guys looked to see if had ever been used to refer to food, but couldn't find anything. They can't quite decide whether to consider them a type of pancake or a type of fritter, or just a cookie that's been fried rather than baked. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:41, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Hindustani words for tribadism
, in his work, Studies in the Psychology of Sex, Volume 2 Sexual Inversion Chapter IV, has the following paragraph:

[..]the Hindustani language has five words to denote the tribade: (1) dúgáná, (2) zanàkhé, (3) sa'tar, (4) chapathái, and (5) chapatbáz.[..]sometimes a phallus, called saburah, is employed. The act itself is called chapat or chapti,[..]

I can find nothing about these words online. Supposedly the information was furnished to him by an "officer in the Indian Medical Service".

Can anyone tell me if these terms are real or if he simply made these up?--Auric (talk) 18:03, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I think they are real words, probably in Urdu (Hindustani = either Urdu or Hindi). However, I don't think they are common words. Probably poetic, rare, possibly archaic. I thought dugana might be . There would be no reason that I can think of to spell them with accents. Probably just dugana, zanakhe, sa'tar, chapathai, etc. —Stephen (Talk) 11:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Translation Header lacking gloss
What does lacking gloss mean? Is it simply that there are insufficient translations? Page here DGunners (talk) 18:17, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The header of a translation table shows a short gloss indicating which particular sense of the word the translations are for. This message means that gloss is missing. —CodeCat 18:41, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I understand that it's automatically generated as a list, but are these strictly necessary where there is only one meaning definition given? DGunners (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It's possible that more definitions will be added in the future. —CodeCat 18:53, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Seyame
What's the established practise here for adding seyame (Syriac marks for indicating plurals)? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you mean what character (glyph) is used? Use u+0308 (combining diaerisis: ܪ + ̈ = ܪ̈). —Stephen (Talk) 10:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Yep. The combining diaeresis (U+0308) can be typed on the standard Syriac keyboard for Windows with  (i.e.  ). Also note that this mark is automatically stripped in templated links ( links correctly as ). --WikiTiki89 21:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:11, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Canopus entry
Where is the etymology for this? The entry is lacking any at all.

Chris68.99.228.123 16:58, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

 * What do you mean? There is an etymology section at the very top of the page. —Stephen (Talk) 07:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)