text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2016/November

polyamorous
When was this coined? Our entry previously claimed the 1960s, but Merriam-Webster agrees with a 1990-1995 date. (WP says Morning Glory's article actually uses "poly-amorous".) - -sche (discuss) 19:55, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Another question: Why was this coined when we already have the word polygamous? --WikiTiki89 20:41, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Because they're not synonyms. Polygamy is any situation where more than two people are in a marriage relationship. Polyamory is where they are in a romantic or sexual relationship, but there is not necessarily a contractual aspect. In theory, polygamy is a subset of polyamory, but that may be taking an optimistic view of polygamy. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 20:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Why is that monogamous can refer to unmarried couples, but polygamous cannot refer to unmarried groups of people? --WikiTiki89 21:07, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Or to rephrase that in a more descriptivistically correct way: Why is it that monogamous was applied to unmarried relationships, but polygamous was not? --WikiTiki89 21:11, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Historic and semantic baggage, or, "because it just did". Specifically, polygamous has strong overtones of polyandrous, the strongly structured form of marriage with one husband and several wives (such as in fundamentalist Mormonism or Islam). So polyamorous was coined to describe a less structured relationship structure, where there might be several male and female partners. Also, polygamy usually refers to a contractual, state- or religion- recognised, formal arrangement, where polyamory might be formal and contractual, or ad-hoc and informal, or any state inbetween. Whereas the monogamy/polygamy distinction is older, and from before the theories which underlie polyamory as a thing. So in that understanding, the distinction is between a marriage between two people, and a marriage involving more than one person. And, in the West, monogamy being the norm, it spread in meaning to include any relationship between two people exclusively, as opposed to any other arrangement, including adultery (which is polyamorous in the sense that there are more than one person in the relationship, but strongly frowned upon in the modern polyamory movement because it's a breach of trust), concubinage, mistresses/lovers, or any other polyamorous arrangement, whether polygamous (involving some contract of marriage) or not. Which is to say: monogamy implicitly subsumes monamory as a meaning, whereas polygamy is a subset of the range of relationships covered by polyamory. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:46, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you confused polyandrous with polygynous, but other than that, I guess you're right that the people who coined polyamory didn't want the negative baggage of polygamy, while the people who first applied monogamous to unmarried relationships probably wanted to keep the existing positive connotations. --WikiTiki89 21:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I remember when the current use of the word came out (--not saying, though, that it didn't already exist prior) but I recall it being used loosely as a deflection/euphemism for gay: for instance, a homosexual would say "I am polyamorous" to deflect the stigma of being gay. On a stricter note, it means having attraction to all sexes or multiple partners equally. Leasnam (talk) 02:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Huh, I didn't know it had anything to do with sexual orientation. --WikiTiki89 14:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've certainly never heard that, and nowadays I think being polyamorous carries more of a stigma than being gay does. Leasnam's "stricter note" sounds to me like the definition of . —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly. There may be significant overlap in that many people who are polyamorous may also define themselves as pansexual (and even pangender or some other flavour of nonbinary gender identity!), but that does not mean that these terms all refer to the same thing. There's a lot of overlap between polyamory and kink, too, for example. Once you deviate from heteronormative patterns in one way, the barrier to deviate in other ways becomes a lot lower.
 * Understandably, polyamory appeals to people of a general anarchist or libertarian disposition (cf. relationship anarchism, and the good old libertine), who generally don't seem to care much about stigma, and considering how obscure the term polyamorous still is in the wider world (outside various subcultures), the idea that its stigma should be bigger than that of gay strikes me as bizarre – at most, polys and pansexuals have acquired a reputation of being pompous and condescending, enamoured with their own intelligence, open-mindedness and progressiveness ("we have evolved past your petty morals and such backward notions as marriage, jealousy, or gender"), and possibly even hypersexual, overbearing and exploitative or predatory. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kuna
It's pretty obvious that the Baltic terms are related to the Slavic one in some way, but I'm having difficulty figuring out the common preform. The Lithuanian term has an e-grade syllable (PIE ew > BS jau), and the Latvian also reflects this, but the j has regularly merged into the preceding velar, giving a palatal stop. Slavic on the other hand has an o-grade syllable (with PIE ow > BS au > Slavic u); the j of the e-grade would palatalise like in Latvian, giving **čuna instead. Then there's the matter of the inflection class, -ė (which I don't know the PIE origin of) or -a. Does anyone have any ideas? —CodeCat 22:05, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * -ė comes from -iyā/-iyē, see Stang's comparative Baltic grammar for details.
 * Maybe it's a substrate word or something? Vasmer also mentions an 🇨🇬 supposedly borrowed from 🇨🇬, maybe that's worth checking out. Crom daba (talk) 00:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Catalan and Spanish follar
The etymology dates back to the creation of the entry by an IP. Said to come from Vulgar Latin fullāre, but without further explanation. I don't know any word in Latin that resembles this, apart from. Admittedly, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no such word, but... --Fsojic (talk) 12:14, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

vogare
RFV of the etymology. The Latin as we show it doesn't appear to have anything to do with rowing. Etymology Online states the Italian word has the same origin as the French. Leasnam (talk) 13:29, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's what the Real Academia Espanola has about the Spanish cognate: Hillcrest98 (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, not sure I fully trust that one. Seems a bit outlier-y to me, like a derivation looking for an etymology :D Leasnam (talk) 01:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Dizionario Etimologico Online could be helpful ? Epantaleo
 * I don't know if I agree with you on that. The majority of sources in different languages' available etymological dictionaries do point to Latin 'vocare' as being the probable, or at least possible, source of vogare/vogar/bogar, etc (one of the few exceptions being the Dizionario Etimologico Online, which is an older source; the TLFi mentions also several possibilities). The meaning would have shifted from "to call" to "to row" because of the call that the rowers would make with each row of the oar on ancient ships, to the beat of the drum. I don't think it's that big of a semantic leap; there are many other occasions where a broader Latin term becomes specialized in Vulgar Latin or proto-Romance. Some say it would have at least come through a Medieval Latin intermediate, 'vogare' (but then there's also Sicilian 'vucari'). I'm not saying that the Germanic theory is any less valid, but I think at least both of these should be mentioned instead of just deleting a prominent viewpoint on these etymologies. One problem, however, is how to treat Italian 'vocare': whether it's a natural doublet of 'vogare' or perhaps a later borrowing. Word dewd544 (talk) 21:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of "ballot"
applied to  (see this change). I'm not an expert on etymology – when should and  be used? I thought ballot is a derivation of 🇨🇬 or rather than a borrowing because the word was adopted from Italian some time ago (the earliest definition in the OED is from the 16th century), and because of the change in form. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:57, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * should be used if the word was borrowed into a previous form of a language, (in this case that would be Middle English, but 16th century English is considered early modern so should be used here). Other situation in which we use  is when a word has been changed substantively through compounding or suffixing or other forms of derivation. In this case, the form of the word has been changed, but this is just a normal loanword adaptation rather derivation so  is the right choice. Crom daba (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying. — SMUconlaw (talk) 22:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Old Irish tlacht
The combination tl- seems like it can come only from a root in zero grade, so I wonder if this is from. The meaning doesn't seem to quite match up though, and I don't know where the -cht part comes from. —CodeCat 20:51, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Old Irish dlongid
This is a nasal-infix verb, which implies a zero-grade root. Its participle is attested as, and t-participles are also formed from zero grades in PIE; the verbal noun is. All of this points to an -u- as the root vowel, thus 🇨🇬,,. It can't be -o- because we know it's a zero grade. However, I can't seem to come up with any kind of PIE root that would give these forms. The nasal infix is always inserted before the final consonant, so that would lead to a root with the zero-grade shape. The only possible full-grade form is then, since onset and coda can't contain multiple sonorants. This initial dl- seems very odd, and I don't think I've ever seen that in a PIE root before. So I wonder if someone else can figure this out? Are there perhaps other sources/attestations pointing to such a strange root shape? —CodeCat 21:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Matasovic likes and  from  (whence also 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬). LIV has this also but is very hesitant about this due to the lack of motivation of PIE *l̥ > PC li > *lo. — JohnC5 21:42, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There's a PIE word . Any relation? KarikaSlayer (talk) 03:04, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Probably not (it may belong to a root *delh₁- "to lengthen"). Schumacher (2004, s. v. *dlu-n-g-e/o-) comes to the same conclusion as, and does not find any of the suggested extra-Celtic cognates compelling. It is true that the combination "alveolar stop" + /l/ appears to be unattested in PIE verbal roots, unless *dʰlegʰ- is valid. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/nemos
Is it known why the bʰ of PIE changed to m in this word? —CodeCat 21:18, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Matasović says it "is best explained as the result of assimilation (n...bʰ > n...m)", which to me is no "explanation" at all but merely naming the phenomenon. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:15, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, "n...bʰ > n...m" is naming the phenomenon, but "assimiliation" is an explanation -- a random one admittedly. Kolmiel (talk) 18:43, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Does the explanation above mean that *nebʰos became *nembʰos and then *nemos ? Leasnam (talk) 03:37, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No; more likely the bʰ was simply replaced by the m. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:04, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Per, the same change appears to have happened in Iranian, which makes the explanation a little less arbitrary. I wonder if there are any similar examples in Celtic. Eugen Hill is of the opinion that remote dissimilations and assimilations are regular sound changes too (even if frequently obscured by analogical reformation in most cases where they applied) and postulating them requires finding parallel cases, like in any regular sound change, to make them plausible (and not just possible) explanations. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

booru
booru says

 * form of English, or formed from cardboard box (a particular imageboard software product).

added "not sure about this"    on 8 March 2012. I'm a linguist ( my user page) and fairly familiar with the adoption of English words into Japanese. In the 1990s, as senior linguist for Dragon Systems, I developed a program to analyze katakana strings and generate a likelihood-ordered list of English words that they might represent.

While I don't know Japanese, I know a fair bit about it. I'm pretty familiar with the way it adapts English words to its phonology, and booru (= bōru; see Romanization of Japanese, § Long vowels) is not too unlikely as a borrowing of board.

The most common forms seem to be boodo (ボード) and boorudo (ボールド). However, ボール紙 booru-shi is used for "cardboard" or "paperboard" in jp.wikipedia. I think that board is a likely source for booru. --Thnidu (talk) 04:11, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

 * . —suzukaze (t・c) 00:14, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I've formatted a bit and added the JA etymon; however, I have no familiarity with the term as English. , please have a look and determine if the RFE tag is still appropriate.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that is from 🇨🇬 rather than 🇨🇬? It's phonologically way more likely, but the semantics are kinda wonky. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:01, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Possible, but unlikely: all JA sources that I've consulted so far consistently source this to 🇨🇬, with no connection to French. C.f. this Kotobank page showing entries from multiple dictionaries and encyclopedias.  The two relevant entries (i.e. not the ones for  or  or, etc.) from Daijirin and Daijisen list this as 《boardから》 ("from ") or 〔board の転〕 ("shift from ").  This jives with my dead-tree Shogakukan (英boardから → from 🇨🇬) and Shinmeikai (board の変化 → change from ), and related entries in the NHK Pronunciation Accent Dictionary.
 * The phonology might seem odd, but for Japanese, this kind of truncation isn't too uncommon; there's a general tendency towards two-syllable, even two-morae, constructions, such as shortening radically to, or  shortening to .  I can easily see  truncating to  in unambiguous contexts.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:22, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But "board" shouldn't give in the first place, as Japanese invariably uses nonrhotic English as its source. 🇨🇬 and maybe (if the vowel length can be explained away) 🇨🇬 or 🇨🇬 could be the source of a  (and is that hypothetical or attested?) but it would be unprecedented for 🇨🇬 to be the source. And Japanese truncation usually exploits vowel shortening before it starts deleting things, so if they wanted to reduce  to three moras, surely  would be the truncation of choice, wouldn't it? Still, if that's what all the published sources say, that's what we need to report, however unlikely it seems. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Not invariably:, , and are all listed as borrowed from English in sources I have to hand.  For that matter, the Daijisen entry here at Kotobank and my dead-tree Shogakukan and Shinmeikai all have entries for  glossed as , as a shortening from .  There are definitely trends in how borrowed terms are rendered in Japanese, but I don't think there are many cut-and-dried, no-exception rules.  :)
 * Re: shortening, the final elements often get truncated from terms that are used in compounds. The compound  could be one such source, or, or .  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Sanskrit
English Sanskrit is apparently descended from Sanskrit saṃskṛtá, but the english spelling and pronunciation seem more similar to Hindi sanskŕt. If the English was borrowed from the Sanskrit, it would be something like *Samskrita. Additionally borrowing from Hindi seems far more plausible given the conditions of 18th c. India. Does anybody have any early English usage of 'Sanskrit' to prove/disprove this?
 * Given that Hindi (or any other possible source language) itself got it from Sanskrit, our etymology is certainly correct, even if it leaves out a step or two in between. If it said "borrowed" instead of "derived", you might have had more of a point. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:37, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's from a particular dialectal form of Sanskrit, if it is Sanskrit at all. Different dialects have different outcomes for syllabic r, and "ri" is just the outcome of one particular variety. —CodeCat 14:39, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * http://www.etymonline.com says it's from, the neuter of , from + , from . —Stephen (Talk) 14:51, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * According to my Hindi dictionary (McGregor 1992), the modern Hindi form is also संस्कृत. From my researches, it appears that the word was first adopted into English in many spelling and only settled down to Sanscrit/Sanskrit is the late 18thC. I'm not sure what the Bengali form is, but it might be worth checking out.- Sonofcawdrey (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Okay, Bengali is সংস্কৃত্ - so same same. I suppose the form Sanskrit is a simplified spelling that would result in an Anglicised pronunciation that most closely approximated saṃskṛt(a), with msk > nsk, and ṛ > ri. So, if I am right, not a borrowing from an Indian language.-Sonofcawdrey (talk) 05:29, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Historical syllabic "r" pronounced as "ri" occurs in modern Indic languages (see also rishi etc.), and was not introduced during the borrowing-into-English stage... AnonMoos (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yup. Like with Latin in Europe, every Indian language has its own tradition of pronouncing Sanskrit. This should be accounted for. The model was probably the Hindustani (Hindi/Urdu) pronunciation pattern, but it could also conceivably have been the Bengali one, from the historical-geographical context. But shouldn't it have turned out as Sonskrit then?
 * Anyway, the ṃ with underdot, before a fricative, is not a bilabial nasal stop, but symbolises an original nasalisation. Since Hindi/Urdu, like Bengali, also has phonemic and phonetic nasalisation, this is conceivably the local Sanskrit pronunciation of the word too. The transcription sanskŕt is weird; what standard does it correspond to and what does it mean put in terms of IPA? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

sigma
I added an etymology for Sigma, can anyone double-check it? I transferred it from Wikipedia (it's cited though). Sorry for the bother, I haven't been too confident in my competence in etymology and discrimination of sources since that habeo/give incident some time ago. Hillcrest98 (talk) 01:00, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

 * It sounds plausible, aside from the vowel length difference. The of the root  would regularly change to  through palatalization triggered by the (pre-Proto-Greek) present suffix, but would naturally appear as  before the suffix . Regarding vowel length,  has short , while  has long , which might suggest they are different roots; but I think the vowel length of  is uncertain, since it seems to also be written as  (here the circumflex indicates a long vowel and the acute a short one, since the α in the last syllable is short), so perhaps there is actually no conflict. — Eru·tuon 21:16, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In regards to vowel length, apparently has a circumflexed vowel while  has a non-circumflexed one. Most likely to do with the acute accent in the latter being somewhere else, though. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 01:16, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

typo
Supposedly from. Is this not creative overcomplication? Why is it not simply from ? Mihia (talk) 01:31, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That's what I'd think as well. —CodeCat 01:32, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That's the way it was until June of this year when User:Sonofcawdrey added the suffix while splitting the entry into two etymologies. I think some people feel that an etymology isn't complete until it uses all the templates available, whether they're applicable or not. In this case, the word seems to be derived from typography, which was was borrowed from French with the -o already in it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:48, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Definitely. --WikiTiki89 13:01, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say definitely not using the -o suffix myself. Obviously my idea is that the -o suffix is part of the word (that the two "o"s overlap), otherwise I wouldn't have bothered changing it. But, that's just my point of view on it, and I see that someone has changed it already, so c'est la vie, I will bow to conformity. But, I don't think it is derived from typography, since the two etymons (typographical error, and typographer) predate the slangy shortening in English. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "I think some people feel that an etymology isn't complete until it uses all the templates available" ... I hardly think this was my motivation, just saying. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 20:57, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "-o suffix is part of the word", maybe that can be used as a synchronic surface derivation, but not a more diachronic one the rest of us prefer. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 01:34, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the suffix abstracted from typo in the first place? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * In "thinko" and a few other parallel terms, yes. In general Australian slang usage, no. AnonMoos (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that there is a homonymous suffix as in (which does not derive from Australian slang, AFAICT), but obviously I wasn't talking about that one. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

yan tan tethera
All of the sheep-counting terms (see Yan tan tethera) at Wiktionary that I've looked at so far give their etymology as "From 🇨🇬 numerals". While this is true of the system(s) as a whole, there's obviously more to it than that when examining individual terms.

To start with, tan is obviously Germanic, not Celtic. Then there's the very strong tendency to rhyme odd and even, except for multiples of 5: yan, the most common form for 1, is a normal Northern reflex of 🇨🇬, and the terms for 3, such as tan rhyme with it. The terms for 4 are obviously from something related to 🇨🇬, with some labial as the first consonant, some dental/alveolar consonant as the second, and r as the last. The terms for 3 seem to be what you get when you take the first consonant of a Celtic word for three and make it rhyme with the term for 4. 5 is obviously Brythonic in most variations, as are 10 and 15.

When we get to 6-9, it's hard to say where they come from: the initial consonants are all over the map, and a lot of the 6-7 pairs rhyme with the 3-4 pairs. The first syllables of the rhymes for the 8-9 pairs often do seem to come from a Brythonic reflex of 9, though.

But enough of my quasi-educated guesses: what does it say in the literature? One would think that this remarkable survival of Brythonic vocabulary in Modern English would have generated some discussion. More to the point, how can we improve the etymology sections of these terms? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 * What has always seemed strange to me is the absence of these words in EDD. I agree with you that the current etyms of the form "From 🇨🇬 numerals" are not much chop. I guess a start to improving them would be adding in cognates from the various modern languages, whether Celtic or Gmc. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 07:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I also wonder if all meet CFI. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 07:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

موم
Hans Wehr 4th ed., page 1094; entry (موه) ماه Alexander Militarev, A complete etymology-based hundred wordlist of Semitic updated: Items 75-100, in the Journal of Language Relationhip[s]; entry 94 water, especially the Afro-Asiatic meaning of sap, liquid substance

religion convergence?
Have you ever heard that
 * Christ
 * < GRC annointed χριστός
 * < GRC smear χρίω + -τος
 * < (wich also gives χρῶμα > chromo-)
 * < (which also gives gray/grey, ES-PT-GL-FR gris IT grigio)

is cognate to
 * Krishna
 * < (which also gives Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/čьrnъ & LIT kirsnas)? (ref. 46:16)

Is that even possible? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 03:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope! — JohnC5 04:15, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This comparison is very old and seems to go back to Volney, a French scholar of the 18th century, compare Christ myth theory. This evidently completely accidental similarity must have been noticed as soon as Europeans travelled to India and became familiar with Hindu religion. (Theoretically, it could even have been noticed by travellers as early as Late Antiquity.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Bantúch
The etymology is very strange here. Obviously the term didn't come into Irish via Proto-Bantu. Can you improve it? —CodeCat 20:49, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what's so strange, except that I omitted intermediate steps. Obviously it's an English loanword, which I've now noted. embryomystic (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

cock-a-doodle-doo
Any references for the claimed Irish origin? DTLHS (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Very possibly the Irish term, if it exists, is modelled on the English. The English term dates from the 17th century, and exists in the 16th century in the form cockaloodletoo. The Irish origin seems very dubious to me. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 07:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

English Noun "tot"
I believe that the English noun "" is derived from modern English "toddler", another name for infants, which sounds like "tottler" in some dialects.
 * Yes, very possibly. I've added an etymology to the entry. Leasnam (talk) 18:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Bonfire
Maybe somebody can help me, the wiktionary codes are overwhelming me. I stumbled on the traditional bonfire-etymology as "bone-fire". As an historian and folklorist, I suspect this is to be a blatant folk-etymology. This was already seen by A. Smyth Palmer, ''Folk-Etymology. A Dictionary'', London 1882, 35-36. The late 15th-century Latin glosse, introducing the term bone-fire seems to be part of the problem, as early-modern folklorists were eager to find a connection between bonfires and supposedly heathen pyres. Nevertheless, Liberman in his popular Word Origins kept to the old idea. And indeed, there might be some proof for burning bones. Cf. Jacqueline Dillion, Thomas Hardy: Folklore and Resistance, 2016, 123.

Palmer had an interesting proposal, referring to Danish bavn "a beacon", Welsh bán "high, lofty", hence ban-faggl "bonfire". As far as I know, however, modern is derived from more distant  forms, , and , though the customs are identical.

A. Gailey and G.B. Adams, 'The Bonfire in North Irish Tradition', in: Folklore 88 (1977), nr.1, pp. 3-38, 27, 35 (with an Appendix: European Words for “bonfire”) - the most recent publication on the topic - also expressed their doubts. They tried to derive the first component bon from 🇨🇬,.

Personally, I find the second part of Palmers suggestion more promising. As the Welsh ban-faggl seems to contain the same root as English bon-fire, there might be another solution:, which is also present in 🇨🇬, equivalent to +. In both cases, the word bonfire might have been influenced by 🇨🇬,, equivalent to +  and deriving from an older  (sorry to be messing around with the wiktionary format and the etymological codes). As I see it, both forms might come from closely related roots "white, shining", which may also be the case with the Scandinavian and Frisian beacon-words.

Moreover, it would explain the distant connection with the theonym, from , usually associated with the origins of the custom of burning bonfires. See: Ronald Hutton, The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp. 218–225, who stresses that bonfires are one of the few customs harking back into the Early Middle Ages. Finally, I am also inclined to see a some connection with the theonym Balder, whose is in recent literature referred to as a 'God of Light' and whose traditional etymology from bald has also been revised recently.

Anyhow, I find it difficult to present the already available alternatives in the format required. And would be pleased, if somebody would help to expand the hypothesis further.Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 19:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Hi, welcome to Wiktionary. The scholarship you are bringing to this question is much appreciated.

 * It is an intriguing suggestion, because although the OED has half a dozen quotes (including Christopher Marlowe) connecting bonfires to contemporary bone-fires, from 14c to 18c, it offers no genuinely mediaeval attestation for the word (nothing prior to 1488/1475). Other examples suggest cases where it is used as a pre-Reformation and Reformation translation of Latin  or Italian, suggesting a variety of early modern Christian connotations.  There are too many literal usages, in both England and Scotland, with locally-appropriate spellings for bone (as pointed out in the OED etymology), to argue for a true folk etymology, I believe.  But since there is apparently no evidence this word existed in Middle English, if you draw the line early enough, it seems plausible bone-fire could be a late mediaeval compound which became conflated with and superceded balefire/bælfyr.  Here are the entries and citations in the University of Michigan Middle English Dictionary: balefire and bonfire.

 * Looking at the quotations, I see evidence against conflation: for example, fire is almost always genitive in the bale- examples, whereas bone is sometimes genitive in the bon- examples (as it is in ignis ossium), and fire is always nominative. But, as there are examples involving heretics for both words (the bon- examples are Modern English and hence in the OED, not here), I think there is some evidence for bonfire supplanting balefire, although in English, the metonyn `at the stake' supplanted both.

 * I do agree with you that the second part of Palmer's proposal makes the most sense, at least per your summary. I have not seen any of the papers or books which you cite.  On the basis of your description, I find it hard to be excited about the Gailey/Adams proposal, although you do not present their argument.  If Hutton can trace the custom to the early middle ages, can he also trace the word farther than in the MED or OED?  Finally, while I am intrigued by the possibility of influence from a Celtic-origin word with similar sound, I lack expertise to evaluate this claim.

 * In terms of etymology style, I normally try to put any justification beyond phonology for published (or credible) speculation in footnotes dangling from perhaps-qualified phrases-- but I also don't do much with English entries, and others write in other ways. I am sure you will be able to include this information in the shorter style of etymologies here.  I'm impressed with how quickly you've become adept at the slightly Byzantine etymology templates.  Isomorphyc (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Daisy
And a second posting on a related topic.

As a rule, the name of the flower  daisy is thought to have been derived from angs. dæges-ēage, which has lead folklorists to many wild ideas, including an association with the Mai-festivities of Beltane. As I did some work on the theonym Balder, in Anglo-Saxon sources also Bældæg, I stumbled on the Scandinavian name balderbrå "Balders brow" for several species of Tripleurospermum. The form baldeyebrow was also known in British dialects.

As the names of plants were often confused and exchanged, the hypothesis came up that we might consider an extant form *bældæg-es-ēage for "daisy". Who can comment on this? Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 20:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Not sure I can help much other than to say that Occam's razor might favour the usual etymology - since (a) the OE form is attested (as opposed to *bældæg-es-ēage), and (b) the flower has a large yellow circle similar to the sun, which could be metaphorically called the day's eye (while there seems to be no good reason the flower should be called Balder's eye ... at least as far as I know). - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 07:37, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Did this come from a verb? And which one since there's no verb "torsar"? DTLHS (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't find in ES or PT or GL. I found GL tosar (<tonsare<LA tonsurare). Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * tórsalo was borrowed from one of the indigenous languages of Costa Rica, but I don't know which. —Stephen (Talk) 16:28, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

upshot

 * Said to come from +, referring to the last shot in a match of archery. Or alternatively from  or Judeo-.

Is the Hebrew origin really plausible? It seems a bit fanciful to me. Mihia (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it's not plausible. I'm removing it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 06:27, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/Tīwaz
In view of, is the reconstruction as a specific theonym rather than (still) a generic term for a deity sensible? It is usually suggested, after all, that *Tīwaz was the original supreme god in earlier times, and pressed into service as the god of war only later. Presumably, the continuation of (not attested in any form in Germanic, apparently, but lost without trace, unless Tuisto is derived from it, but that's only possible if it is distorted by folk-etymology from something like *Tjusta- or *Tjuska-) was replaced by that of the generic  at some point because the inflection of the original name of the supreme god had become too irregular. Wikipedia suggests, unfortunately without source, that the rise of Odin and Thor over Tyr happened only in the Migration Period, and if that's true, it's quite conceivable that the renaming of Tyr only happened after the split-up of Germanic, but while he was still the supreme god, so that "the god" was simply the byname that resembled his proper name (etymologically "sky") most, and in that case the primary meaning of the word in Proto-Germanic was still the generic one which is still preserved in North Germanic, but not elsewhere. But even if that's wrong and the primary name of the god in Proto-Germanic was already *Tīwaz, it's awkward at best to treat the generic meaning of *tīwaz as secondary (in fact, as if it was a secondary development that happened only in North Germanic) when it must evidently be older. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I think you might be slightly misunderstanding the meaning of "supreme god" in such contexts. In many mythologies, the theoretical supreme god is actually a rather shadowy and remote figure.  He may have created the world and/or be at the beginning of genealogies, but there's often not a whole lot more to say about him, and he doesn't meaningfully intervene in the day-to-day concerns of humans. AnonMoos (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm using the term in the exact same sense as listed in supreme god, namely, King of the Gods. Zeus is the prototypical example of a "king of the gods"-type supreme god, and he clearly does not fit your description. So I'm sorry to say I fail to see the point of your comment, as it does not substantially address anything I've said. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

 * The possibility should be kept in mind that there might not have been a clearly-delineated "king of the gods" in certain phases of Indo-European society and/or along the path towards Germanic. In many mythologies, the nominal supreme god is more like Greek Ouranos than Zeus... AnonMoos (talk) 17:30, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Maybe, but I still fail to see the relevance of this niggle to anything I've said. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Athens
Absolutely not borrowed directly from. More likely got here from some Romance language. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 15:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you think that. It probably came via Latin, but that's just because nearly all such words did. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I was complaining of the wording, that's all. The ultimate etymology has always been correct. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 16:58, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

and descendants
Does anyone know more about the descendants with medial -ns-? The etymologies say they're Latin borrowings, but they're present in minority languages that I wouldn't expect to see Latin book words in (Istriot, for example, which also shows the same e > a as < ), and I am suspicious of the idea that a Latinism could displace a basic verb (whatever it is) so thoroughly in so many different languages. KarikaSlayer (talk) 03:53, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Must be a Latin borrowing into Proto-Romance. :p Crom daba (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering that does not show any doublets with nasal (apart from the patently late reborrowing  and the semi-learned ), later reborrowing (maybe in the context of Ecclesiastic Latin, and in some cases secondarily adapted – the phenomenon of borrowings artifically made to look older than they really are does exist; Ante Aikio has written about such borrowings in Saami) is the only reasonable explanation. Note, moreover, that the Latinism continues to exist side by side with the expected forms without nasal. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

blood is thicker than water
It's often asserted (as of late) in popular media that this derives from a supposed the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, which seems to have been first mentioned (it's practically never used) by a certain Richard Pustelniak in 1994. That's much later than simply blood is thicker than water that has many uses from the nineteenth century even on Google Books. To my knowledge no linguist has published anything supporting the longer version as the proverb's origin. Should we add a warning that the now current etymology is dubious? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't seem worth the clutter. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:59, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

🇨🇬
Sükhbaatar connects this with Sanskrit "sambhara", supposedly the same source as 🇨🇬 (I generated the Tibetan text from the given transliteration, no idea if it's correct).

I'm guessing that he meant 🇨🇬 since it seems to have a great range of meaning: "-1 Bringing together, collecting -2 Preparation, provisions, necessaries, requisites, apparatus, things requisite for any act -3 An ingredient, a constituent part. -4 Multitude, heap, quantity, assemblage; as in शस्त्रास्त्रसंभार. -5 Fulness. -6 Wealth, affluence. -7 Maintenance, support. -8 High degree, excess of."

Is there a sense of saṃbhāraḥ not listed among these that would be closer to the Mongolian word? seems relevant because it is presumably from the same root and is much closer semantically.

Crom daba (talk) 01:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

 * This theory seems to have been first put forward by Ligeti Lajos in Mongolos jövevényszavaink kérdése [The problem of our loanwords of Mongolian type] (1935), and was subsequently mentioned in A. Róna-Tas' Some Notes on the Terminology of Mongolian Writing (1965) and Tóth Erzsébet's thesis Mongol-tibeti nyelvi kölcsönhatások (2008). While the Sanskrit comparandum seems fairly plausible phonologically, the Tibetan one appears less reliable.

 * I couldn't find the word in dictionaries or online. The closest was, found only on a few book names, which was referring to a style of Tibetan writing or calligraphy in  (northeastern Tibet), and the related technology of blotting paper production (Chinese: 洒智 sǎzhì). I initially thought the sa bris in book names was a misspelling of sa 'bris, but it seems sa bris is the usual spelling, as seen here - . A variety of equipment are used in sa-bris, including brush, ink, paper, ink stone, writing board, etc.; sa-bris was described as the Tibetan equivalent of the  in East Asian calligraphy, and was recognised as a natural intangible cultural heritage in 2008. With regard to the etymology of sa-bris, several websites (such as this) remarked that this style of calligraphy was invented in the 18th century by the monk Sa-an Tenzin (洒安旦增), hence the name sa-bris ( bris = to write). It seems Tibetan sa bris and Mongolian sambar are etymologically unrelated, unless sa bris is a dialectal corruption of Sanskrit sambhara, contaminated by bris (“to write”).

 * The Tibetan sa bris and Mongolian sambar are said to be equivalents in the  (A. Róna-Tas citing the 1957 printed version), and since sa bris represents a style of writing which requires an assortment of equipment, the same may be said of sambar as well. The various descendant forms of saṁbhārá can be found here, but its basic meaning is “bringing together”, so this may be the origin of the name. Wyang (talk) 04:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

 * That's great, thanks for digging all of that up! I'll link this discussion from the entry's talk page for posterity. Crom daba (talk) 05:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

yếm
RFV of the etymology. ばかFumiko￥talk 10:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Anything specific that needs to be verified? The element yếm in yếm khí, yếm thế, yếm nhân obviously derives from Sino-Vietnamese. Wyang (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

msikiti
This Swahili word is from 🇨🇬, and clearly derives from the older stratum of borrowings. One odd thing is that I would expect a j rather than a k — does this come from a specific Arabic dialect? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:58, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The word itself has a k too, so maybe there's clues in that direction. —CodeCat 21:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Standard Arabic j comes from earlier g, and it still is /ɡ/ in some dialects like Egyptian. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:33, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought about Egyptian Arabic, but it just doesn't make sense. Most of the Arabic loans in Swahili are reputedly from Omani Arabic, but I don't know where to look for resources on how this word is pronounced in Oman. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This discussion may be relevant. --Vahag (talk) 08:30, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the link. Swahili poses an especially frustrating part of this because although the word could potentially have come via Persian traders, that seems rather unlikely (Arabic loans swamp out Persian ones by far in Swahili, and after all this is a word relating to Islam). I wonder if there are any further resources to resolve it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Could this be a time depth matter? Omani Arabic doesn't have g in this word anymore now, but what about when the word might have been borrowed? The g could have been much more widespread at the time, and thus made its way into Swahili before the change to j took place. —CodeCat 21:11, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been wondering that too. According to Classical Arabic, the pronunciation in Classical Arabic may have been [ɡʲ].
 * It's still a mystery to me where Spanish mezquita (first attested c. 1100, before all other Romance counterparts) comes from. Phonologically it does make sense that it was borrowed from Middle Armenian or perhaps Byzantine Greek, as Pfeifer suggests, but historically and geographically that's quite unexpected. Why would a word so intimately related to Islam at the time not simply be borrowed from Arabic (most likely the local Andalusian dialect)? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 09:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, according to Arabic phonology and Yemeni Arabic, the conservative pronunciations [ɟ], [ɡʲ] and [ɡ] do occur in parts of Yemen and Oman. It makes complete sense to me that the "hard gīm" used to be more widespread in the region. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 09:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, these pronunciations (including [ʝ] I think) are still heard today in the Arabian peninsula. And since [g] or [ɟ] is also the original pronunciation, I don't see any problem concerning Swahili (and not that much of a problem concerning Spanish even). Kolmiel (talk) 11:35, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I still wonder why we don't get *msigiti, but I suppose you can explain that away just by the fact that it's an older loan, before speakers got used to Arabic sounds. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps g didn't exist in Swahili at the time? —CodeCat 22:06, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Swahili g is the implosive /ɠ/, not the (ex)plosive /g/. --Tropylium (talk) 23:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/furduz
Can anyone help me with the umlaut here? How did the forms with O's get there? Regular umlaut rule? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 03:46, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * /ur, ir/ > /or, er/ is an unconditional rule in several Germanic languages. /u/ > /o/ is an unconditional rule in (North-?)Western Dutch, which is the basis for modern Dutch orthography. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The o in Old English is unexpected; *furduz should have given ×furd. It looks like the Old English comes from a byform *furdaz. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thought the Old English came from an A-form as well, so that an A-umlaut could cause the /o/ to appear. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 13:37, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In principle it's also conceivable that the A-umlaut could have arisen in the genitive *furdauz. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 10:40, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Spelling of friend
The pronunciation comes from pretty regularly, but the spelling is bizarre. We list three Middle English variants frende, frend, freond, none of them containing something similar to the  in the modern spelling. However, friend happens to be a plural of OE. Does the modern spelling have any connection to that? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 16:47, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I wonder if perhaps the spelling was influenced by the antonym fiend. Or possibly even by Dutch vriend? Just a thought ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 10:46, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Do English spellings have any rationale behind them at all? :) Kolmiel (talk) 11:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the dilemma. It doesn't seem unusual at all to me, except maybe the alternative use of ie for ee. The expected outcome of Old English is Middle English . ME  is just a variant spelling. Later the vowel was shortened to something like /frInd/ before settling on /frend/. Chancery simply chose the current spelling from amongst the others. Leasnam (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

 * If you want to see the real range of variation in Middle English, look at the MED entry. The modern spelling is certainly rare, but it's attested. That's not to discount your theory about paradigmatic leveling, but the lack of a Wiktionary Middle English entry for that spelling isn't evidence for it. If anything, it just shows that volunteer editors are going to make entries for what's different and interesting first, especially if the boring spelling wasn't very common. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I don't understand the dilemma. I'm made to understand that /iə/, spelled ⟨ie⟩, is the regular outcome of ēo in Tyke or Geordie or something, cf. thief, lief. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 18:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That is correct I think, as ēo is the West Saxon version of what would otherwise be Anglian īo Leasnam (talk) 00:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Bengel/*bangilaz
The etymology at disagrees with the definition at Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bangilaz. Which one is it? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 17:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it the definitions at that are the problem ? I know that in the West Germanic languages, they later came to mean "boy", but I doubt seriously that this meaning was already in PGmc Leasnam (talk) 00:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * According to Pfeifer, the Middle High German word bengel means "club" only, as do Middle Dutch bengel and Low German Bengel (this one also means "clapper"); the meaning "lout" arose only in the 16th century. So the meaning given for Proto-Germanic at *bangilaz is wrong. I've corrected it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you ! Leasnam (talk) 03:40, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

κλῖμαξ and κλίμα
Why does the first have a long i, and not the second?
 * Off the top of my head, it's possible that κλῖμαξ has compensatory lengthening and comes from something like *klismaks. The PIE root is, so ī isn't expected anywhere unless it was actually . —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:21, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


text:
Wiktionary:Tea room/2016/December

ulema
We currently have English alim as a singular with a plural alims, and then ulema as a plurale tantum. Does that make sense? Kolmiel (talk) 15:49, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I did a quick GBooks search and yeah, both and  are used as plurals to . Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 23:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * So would you agree with me that ulema (and all the variant spellings thereof) should be non-lemma forms? (Because that's the point of my question. To be sure, I didn't mean to question the word "ulema" as such, just its being a plurale tantum rather than a plural.) Kolmiel (talk) 00:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I have come across quite a few GBooks texts that use but never, so maybe we can keep both as lemmas.  Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 16:22, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Course we could. But why should we if one is the plural of the other? The only argument would be that "ulema" is actually not used as a plural of "alim", but is a totally independent word in English. But you said it was used that way, and I think so too. Now, the plural is more common, that's true, because it refers to the Islamic "clergy" as a whole. But I don't think that counts as an argument. "Eyes" is more common than "eye", but it's still a non-lemma plural. Kolmiel (talk) 23:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Persian Gulf
I'm wondering whether gulfs like this can be categorised as seas even though they are named gulfs - there's no category for gulfs anyway, and on the other side of the Arabian Peninsula the Red Sea, which is similar, is categorised as a sea. DonnanZ (talk) 16:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Our definition of says in part "a partially landlocked sea", so I don't see (ha-ha) why not. Gulfs are a particular kind of sea. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I was also looking at large bays like the, and , which are all in Category:en:Seas so this is obviously the right treatment. DonnanZ (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

simple present
Can someone who knows a bit about English grammar improve the definition given here? It does not specify how simple present differs from present tense. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Should all the related "tenses" really have to word "tense" included? Don't we use, for instance, "the past historic" rather than "the past historic tense"? SemperBlotto (talk) 08:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, the simple present is "I do", as opposed to "I am doing", which is present continuous.

pramipexole
Why no pronunciation?
 * It's not a common word, so it's not surprising. I wouldn't have a clue how to pronounce it anyway. DonnanZ (talk) 22:14, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

 * and, I just stumbled on this TR entry, went over, googled for the pronunciation, found this and this which basically confirmed my instinctive guess (I was just unsure whether to stress pra or pex, that is between /ˌpræmɪˈpɛksəʊl/ and /ˈpræmɪˌpɛksəʊl/; in fact, I'd have gone for the latter, but the audios said otherwise), and added two pronunciations based on them, my own pronunciation (for the velar [ʟ]) and the little I know about precise phonetic differences from GenAm to RP (for the /oʊ/ vs. /əʊ/). Any confirmation/denial (and any comments on possible mistakes in the enPR, which I am not too familiar with) are obviously welcome. MGorrone (talk) 20:50, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

all that, all that and a bag of chips
Shouldn't the adjective senses be nouns? Equinox ◑ 09:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe. But where are the citations? They would tell us a lot about the grammar. DCDuring TALK 14:55, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

the word dividings applied to a waterway
In Georgia USA there is a part of the Cumberland River called the Cumberland Dividings. Why dividings? Are there any other waterways named thus?
 * It's pretty easy to find dividings in use in the sense involved on Google Books. For example:
 * It looks regional in that use. There are other uses of dividings, including something to do with preventing mine cave-ins. DCDuring TALK 15:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks regional in that use. There are other uses of dividings, including something to do with preventing mine cave-ins. DCDuring TALK 15:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

frood
Where to add a salute to The Guide when there is no noun entry in that Wikt page ? --Jerome Potts (talk) 17:04, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * How would you have added it if there were a noun entry? --WikiTiki89 18:09, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * And is it actually used outside of ? SemperBlotto (talk) 06:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

 * It has previously failed RFV. Equinox ◑ 14:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

one's
Is once really a homophone of one's as claimed on that page? It isn't the way I pronounce it. Spinning Spark ''' 18:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Nor the way I say it, nor the way I can recall hearing anyone else say it. Mihia (talk) 02:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

second-most-massive
User:Sae1962 has added second-most-massive, third-most-massive and tenth-most-massive as derived terms to the massive page. These terms don't exist according to Ngrams. Spinning Spark ''' 13:19, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * They're also SOP. This user has a tin ear when it comes to CFI- if they've seen it on their screen, they've tried to make an entry out of it. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:28, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I did wonder why sources might discuss the tenth most massive something, but entirely ignore the fourth through ninth. Spinning Spark ''' 17:56, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You could use these words, although they're not established words as such. The trouble is that if you list these as "words", then there are unlimited such words, eg "the third-most-beautiful woman in the world". Also, the style is overhyphenated here. Third most beautiful would be acceptable. The trend is to use fewer hyphens.

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/ailijaną
Where is the source for this Germanic root, if it exists, please? If there were more confirmed evidences than that in Old English and the Nordic remnants, the spelling would be correct. However, there are remants in the Celtic dialects of Breton and Welsh for "fireplace", that are closer to Old English, from a fabricated Celtic root *aith-l-ti.[Dr. Ken George; KESVA]. Andrew H. Gray 08:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)Andrew talk

transcendental critique
The definition given does not seem to really define the word critique and when I went to the reference I could not find both words as the link allegedly defined 'transcendent' alone.(could not find either word) I am suggesting that we need the definition for critique and then add the transcendental perspective.Thank you Bobdog54 (talk) 19:06, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

mind you

 * 1)  Mind that you; be careful that you.

What does it mean by "literally archaic"? Mihia (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

 * My best guess is that the two words are supposed to be separated by a comma (i.e. "literally, archaic"), since the pipe usually creates a comma (obviously, there must be an exception made for when it follows "literally"). Whoever added it must just have perceived it to be more literal than the current, more idiomatic sense, but it might not be helpful to label it as such. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks for changing it. From a BrE perspective, even though it is not something one hears every day, I wonder whether it should be labelled "dated" in BrE. Am I right in discerning from your talk page that you are Canadian? Mihia (talk) 18:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I am indeed. It's not something I've ever heard in Canada, though I'm familiar with the usage from older (18th-19th century) books. (Also, I think it was Equinox who made the change, not me...) Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:26, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I don't even think this sense should be there. It's not a stand-alone unit meriting an entry; it's a fragment, like "ensure she". Equinox ◑ 10:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree it's a fragment. I wonder, though, whether it might be kept simply for contrast with the idiomatic phrase? Mihia (talk) 18:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, I agree. I will post it at Requests for Deletion. Mihia (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Not archaic. Mind you wear a scarf is perfectly normal British English.

fr:back of the neck
Hello,

In your opinion, should this sequence of words (created by bot) be considered as an expression in English? — Automatik (talk) 23:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * To this native English speaker it does not seem to be an idiom. DCDuring TALK 01:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

 * If you need a literal translation of the French term you could use "nape". DTLHS (talk) 01:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree with DCDuring that it is not an idiom, and therefore does not deserve its own entry. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The trouble with nape is that it is not necessarily understood by, say, the average voter. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Nape on its own is meaningless. It has to be "nape of the neck".
 * Of course, that isn't true. In addition to the numerous uses in the context of medicine and descriptions of animals, there are instances such as the following:
 * DCDuring TALK 15:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Any writer can help himself to any usage he wishes. I don't know who Carlos Fuentes is, but do you think he could show that he had heard "nape" used without "of the neck" in his life before he wrote that sentence? The fact that Carlos Fuentes -- which is not a native English name -- wrote a sentence does not show that is the idiomatic usage in English. You would struggle to find any real usages without a subsequent "of the neck", and maybe Carlos Fuentes just didn't know that.
 * Any writer can help himself to any usage he wishes. I don't know who Carlos Fuentes is, but do you think he could show that he had heard "nape" used without "of the neck" in his life before he wrote that sentence? The fact that Carlos Fuentes -- which is not a native English name -- wrote a sentence does not show that is the idiomatic usage in English. You would struggle to find any real usages without a subsequent "of the neck", and maybe Carlos Fuentes just didn't know that.

is a Mexican novelist.  was translated by Alfred MacAdam, a professor at Barnard College. Is that sufficiently "native English" for you? Cnilep (talk) 07:46, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You can find some usages but not common: [//books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=his+nape%2Cthe+nape+of+his+neck&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3]. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The entry has been deleted thanks to your help. — Automatik (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

antidepression
at we show this as an adjective. this is also a noun, is it not ? Leasnam (talk) 17:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Can you give an example? Everything I come up with has antidepression as a modifier, followed by legislation/act/medication/drug/program/meditation/bath/etc. I can find the existence of an article titled “Ferulic acid-induced anti-depression and prokinetics similar to Chaihu-Shugan-San via polypharmacology,”; that's maybe a noun use (and maybe an English use). It could possibly be cited from newsgroups, but it seemed more like sloppy English or typos (one case had antidepression where antidepressant would be correct).--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I came across in this statement <> which got me thinking about it. Honestly, I had never given it any thought before Leasnam (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

savi pouch
It seems this term has only been used in writing by the person who coined it. Is this a problem? Equinox ◑ 13:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. See Criteria for inclusion: there must be at least three independent uses, which means other authors besides the coiner have to use the term. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

puerco no se rasca en javilla
This Spanish idiom translates as "The pig doesn't scratch himself on the sandbox tree", the sandbox tree being as spiky as fuck, and means something like "people don't use arguments that can hurt them". Do we have a similar proverb in English? I can't think of any at this moment of time. Just pork scratchings, which wouldn't help me. And maybe don't shit in your own backyard, but that's not quite right either. Thanks in advance, fellow Wiktionarians. --Derrib9 (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Is it anything like "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"? Equinox ◑ 19:15, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Probably something like that. --Derrib9 (talk) 20:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Don't shoot oneself in the foot? —suzukaze (t・c) 02:51, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Don't go looking for trouble? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If one doesn't remember this proverb, one may be said to cut off one's nose to spite one's face. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks fellow 'narians. I put a couple of the page. BTW, I quite enjoy using random English proverbs in Spanish, and vice versa. It confuses people and/or makes me look super wise. I tried this particular one out on my friends in Catalonia, but they had no idea what it meant. --Derrib9 (talk) 10:03, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

In desperate need of a definition
Define ( Mechanifacationalism ) and if possible use it in a sentence

 * Not a real English word; no definition exists. Where did you see it? Equinox ◑ 01:35, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Have a good friend ask me to give him a description of Mechanifacationalism and use it in a sentence Any ideas would be great but honestly I have no clue what exactly is the meaning
 * Well, it looks like it should really be "mechanificationalism", but that would still make no sense. Mechanification would be the process or result of mechanifying, which would presumably be the process of somehow making something mechanical. This is all hypothetical, because only mechanification out of all these forms is used at all, and it's not clear what most of the usage means. That still doesn't explain the "-alism" part, since I have no idea what it would mean for something or someone to be mechanificational, and without that, adding the "-ism" suffix just makes it a longer word with unknown meaning. You can look through our entries on all the possible pieces and try to figure it out for yourself: mechanic ,-ify, -ate, -ation, -ification, -al, -ism. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Why does ASE article have empty brackets under initialism of?
There are entries like this:  #  there. What does  mean? This must be an invalid syntax. Yurivict (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * If you take out the empty brackets, it breaks. Try it in preview mode. So this is a hack to get around that problem, when including a general Internet link (not a normal internal wiki link) within those templates. Equinox ◑ 23:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I removed the empty brackets and moved the links to the 2nd unnamed parameter. Apparently, this works too. I find this idea an improvement, because the empty brackets were ugly, in my opinion. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:21, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks! I find it an improvement too. Yurivict (talk) 23:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

pickle
At we show 2 etymologies. The second is a dialect word used in the North of England and Scotland. I moved the duplicate sense of "bit, small amount" from Etym_1 to sense 2 of Etym_2 (replacing what was originally there). My question is in regards to Etym_1 sense 5 ("mischievous loved one"). Should this also be at Etym_2 ? I cannot see how we get a term of endearment from a brine soaked cucumber. It makes more sense to me that it evolved out of the "small amount" sense. Leasnam (talk) 02:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Foods do sometimes seem to be used this way; I have no idea why. See and French . Equinox ◑ 13:19, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

팬
This can also mean "pan" as in "frying pan", right? ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. Can also mean "Pan" with the same pronunciation.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * A is usually called .  is . — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:15, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That's right but I'm pretty sure these senses are attestable as well and they are in dictionaries.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:09, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

wise man
wise man lists three senses. Isn't the first "man who is wise" the same as the first part of the second sense, "a sage"; while the second part of the second sense "a seer" different from "a sage" and should be a separate sense? And the third sense uses "biblical magi", but those were astrologers, soothsayers, seers or viziers and not wizards, so that should not be glossed there. A separate sense could be provided for the Biblical sense (priest). This would then be rewritten as: -- 70.52.9.183 13:35, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) A sage (a man who is wise)
 * 2) A seer
 * 3) A magus or wizard

athem
I noticed this entry for or  was made under modern English, but if it was only attested up to the 13th century as the entry notes, that would make it squarely Middle English still (and that has its own separate entry under ). Does anyone know of attestations into the early modern English period? Word dewd544 (talk) 17:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

editorial office, editorial department
Hello. Do these entries, created by bot on fr.wikt, are admissble? Looks like the same case as back of the neck. In advance, thanks for your kind help. — Automatik (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

holidiurnal
Bit suspicious about this since the creator has a bit of a track record of dubious things. I am wondering: 1. How come none of these books are in Google Books? How did the user find the cites? 2. How come, in all four citations, it always modifies the noun "course"? 3. Why is there a typo and a grammatical error in the third citation? I would like us to be clear that these citations aren't fake or anything. Equinox ◑ 00:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * They're not fake, but they're from reviews of the books (or something like reviews)-, . DTLHS (talk) 00:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * They read a bit like automatically generated spam text to me. DTLHS (talk) 00:21, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

calìgo vs caigo
I was doing some personal research about the etymology of fog in various italian regional languages. Then I read that this wiktionary translates this in venetian as nebia and not as caigo. then I found this wiktionary had calìgo instead of caigo, unlike de:caigo. That is fine, but has this wiktionary any convention in place for writing Venetian? I'd like to understand if we are to consider caigo and calìgo two different words, or the first an error, or the latter an archaism, or simply the same word just with the convention to have mute l in some variants of venetian.--Nickanc (talk) 14:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Venetian spelling is not as centralised as Italian or other major languages. This word is spelt in standard orthography; the ł represents the diaphoneme that surfaces as /l/, ∅ or a glide, but some writers just spell it the way it sounds in their dialect. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:21, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hence, we move calìgo to całìgo and we leave an alternative spelling of in caigo. is it correct?--Nickanc (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Both calìgo and caigo are common. The ł (for the soft l) is a recent convention. However, in spite of the theoretical advantage of ł and other recent additions, they have not yet been very successful outside of academic circles. I hesitate to say that one form is an alternative spelling of another. I think they are more like English center versus centre, where each spelling is predominant among those who use that pronunciation and spelling. I think deserves an entry, though, with an explanation that it comes from a recent proposal to unify and standardize the script, but that it has not yet been widely accepted. —Stephen (Talk) 12:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

간단
Can this also mean 簡單? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * 簡單 is 간단하다. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * as in may also have a noun section (etymology 2) "simplicity; being simple", not sure what the exact definition it should be. The adverb is formed as --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I don’t think is used to mean “simplicity”. The use of adjective radicals in Korean is very limited compared to Japanese. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * . Thanks, I know it's limited but the usage is attestable in most cases and some kind of (rare/limited) definitions can be given, even for etymological purposes. BTW, re: kyūjitai entries are allowed, even if they are pain in the butt to make. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:34, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Stress in "tibetan"
Currently, it's /ti.beˈtan/. Shouldn't the stress be before the stressed vowel, however?--Adûnâi (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. Feel free to fix it. SemperBlotto (talk) 11:51, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah - I just assumed you meant . I have no idea how those foreign words are pronounced. SemperBlotto (talk) 12:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I assume that the Rumanian entry is quite correct with final stress, though I don't really know. Kolmiel (talk) 03:01, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * PS: Yes, it is: . So no need to fix anything :) Kolmiel (talk) 03:06, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

stencil
I think there is an out-of-date sense here, a typed stencil, which could then be used to make printed copies on an office duplicator. I can remember them from the sixties and seventies, and was funnily enough reminded of them by an entry in DDO. DonnanZ (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the mimeograph stencils that produced purple dittos were still around in the 80s. JulieKahan (talk) 09:12, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

bardhë
The talk page contains a complaint that seems valid, but my incompetence at Albanian grammar and templates prevents me from even attempting a correction. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as the template is concerned, you only have to delete the vertical bar and bardha. Kolmiel (talk) 02:57, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * , can you help? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it should be changed to e bardhë!Etimo (talk) 19:48, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you, done now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:58, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

رباع
I recently created the entry for, but I am not sure how it is actually used. Wehr doesn't give examples. Is it a noun, adjective, or numeral? Does it modify nouns or does a noun modify it in idafa? — Eru·tuon 20:31, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's properly rubāʿa, diptote accusative. Almaany calls it an "invariable noun", but it should probably be called an adverb in western terms. Almaany gives the following example sentences: اصطف الجنود رباع (Iṣṭaffa l-junūdu rubā‘[a]. –"The soldiers formed up in lines of four.") جاء القوم رباع (Jā’a l-qawmu rubā‘[a]. – "The people came in groups of four.") My translations. Kolmiel (talk) 00:48, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

어떤
Can this also mean "which"? ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It mainly means “what kind of”. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Category:en:Responses to sneezing
I don't feel that ew and yuck belong here: not sneeze-specific. Equinox ◑ 00:14, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

 * To be more precise: bless you is a sort of social code used in response to a sneeze, whereas yuck is just a reaction to what came out of someone's nose. Equinox ◑ 14:41, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Lollypaloozer, lallapalootza, lollapalooza
Currently, , and are separate entries. Until recently lollapalooza was said to be derived from the former two; I took the liberty of changing the etymology to "unknown but compare" those two. (Also, which is roughly contemporaneous with lollypaloozer) It seems to me that these are variant spellings of the same slang word, no? The OED Online has a single headword spelled lallapaloosa, with lallapalootza, lollapaloosa, and lollapalooza in the quotations. It gives the etymology as simply "fanciful formation".

Etymology online gives no precursor for lollapalooza, but dates it from 1901. That seems wrong, since George Ade used in 1896 – currently the oldest example I can find. I've collected citations with various spellings at Citations:lollapalooza.

Back-datings, etc. are welcome. Also, does anyone besides me feel like "resembling the Perry Farrell-founded music festivals" is developing as a separate sense? There seem to be an awful lot of references on the web comparing things to the tours or subsequent festivals. Cnilep (talk) 07:33, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

散工
Could someone please check the Cantonese and Min Nan readings? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

sheep-dip
Verb is defined incorrectly, as though it were a noun. How is it used? Equinox ◑ 05:39, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

doorway translations
Please, make 2 tables, one with "door passaedje" (fr= embrasure de porte, nl deuropening) and the other with "entrance way" (fr. porcha, corridor, vestibule; wa poice, tchapå)

--Lucyin (talk) 12:23, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

escribido
"Mispelling" is not the right word here. --WikiTiki89 18:41, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * nonstandard form of, perhaps? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:22, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed according to Angr's suggestion Alázhlis (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

blitz
Can't the verb also mean "to attack suddenly and swiftly"? Tharthan (talk) 19:22, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. I modified sense 1 to include any such sudden or quick attack Leasnam (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Εὔα
Does this word have a rough breathing mark? I would tend to think yes, since there's a guttural in both the etymon and the Vulgate Latin descendant (never ). KarikaSlayer (talk) 23:44, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's written with a smooth breathing in the Septuagint at Genesis 4:1 and 4:25 and in the New Testament at 1 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 11:3. I can't find it with a rough breathing in the Bible at all, but maybe it is in other works. As for the Latin, it's spelled at Genesis 4:1 (her name isn't mentioned at 4:25 in the Vulgate) and  in the NT both times. I don't find  in the Vulgate, but again, maybe it's spelled that way in other works. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There are different Vulgates which have different spellings, e.g. sometimes it's Raphael and sometimes Raphaël, Rafael and rather Middle Latin Rafahel.
 * Nova Vulgata (www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_vt_genesis_lt.html) has Eva in Genesis 3:20 and 4:1 and in ad Corinthios II 11:3, Wikisource's Vulgata (la.wikisource.org/wiki/Biblia_Sacra_Vulgata_%28Stuttgartensia%29) has Hava in Genesis and Eva in ad Corinthios II, bibleserver's Vulgata (www.bibleserver.com/text/VUL/1.Mose3) has Heva in both (and also Mathusaël and Sellæ). -84.161.19.62 12:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

𫙕
Can you try to check if this is the kanji for conger eel? It appears that this is a kokuji, so it needs more sources. Dingo1234555 (talk) 07:48, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I added a reference but it says that dictionaries that list it cite the "Kokuji no Jiten" which itself has unclear sources for 𫙕. —suzukaze (t・c)

box-spring
As defined, a box-spring is part of a box spring: they are not synonyms. Can anyone confirm this? Equinox ◑ 05:25, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No, that's nonsense. It's just an alternative spelling. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The WP article says that divan is sometimes used synonymously. I'd never heard that. Is it true? Or can a box spring be built into some divans? DCDuring TALK 15:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Usage example for njeri
I just noticed the usage example for njeri has no translation. What does it mean?

MGorrone (talk) 18:40, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Google Translate says it means "Everyone knew it." —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:09, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

 * If that is true, then we would need another sense, since from "human" and "someone" I cannot see how to get "everyone". MGorrone (talk) 10:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I looked at Albanian Wiktionary and then added a couple pronoun senses and a translation for the usage example. I asked an Albanian friend of mine to verify. MGorrone (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

fag
Regarding recent edits, please see Talk:fag. I don't want to wade in with edits on my own because gender identity is a touchy subject. Equinox ◑ 23:49, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

 * The whole definition is way over-complicated in my opinion. It should just say "a homosexual man". Mihia (talk) 18:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

 * No, effeminacy or some other conspicuous behaviour that comes across as "queer" is central to the idea, as amply demonstrated by the first two citations from the 1920s. The term doesn't refer to just any old straight-acting gay man. Same thing as a dyke is not just any lesbian woman. Both terms can refer to gender-conforming people too, but that's an extension of the original idea. Anyway, I've addressed Equinox's concern now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:08, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Oops, I somehow managed to miss the fact that my suggestion "a homosexual man" was in fact already the first definition, and the questioned definition was a supplementary. Mihia (talk) 04:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Coorne, suspect poor source checking
This word was reported as suspicious and unsupported. I found no sources supporting any cognacy with "crown" and put the following message into the talk page, but I see it is not a preferred channel, so I add it here:

Coorne
I am sceptical of this claim and suspect faulty research unless the creator can refer us to a clearly and openly supportable source. I have done some superficial searching and found the word as a (sur)name in what looks like some Flanders regions, which proves nothing, but I also see several Ghent records in Google books, that suggest that it is cognate with a number of Germanic words for grain, such Afrikaans "koring", Dutch "koren", German "Korn" (Kluge traces it to preteutonic times and Latin).

A clear example of the word in seventeenth century official Flemish is visible here on page 633: There I was confused by a string of titles in 17th century Flemish, but on more careful interpretation and correction of scannos, I am convinced that "Coorne en Graene" means precisely "corn(s) and grain(s)" I include part of the text in question in a hidden comment following this sentence, in case anyone would like to inspect it (apologies for my ignorance of correct practice; anyone wishing to tidy this entry is welcome!)

Alzo, or now then: The fact that in some low-Germanic dialect coorne pretty certainly meant corn, as in wheat, does not prove that it wasn't cognate with "crown", "coronet" or the like in middle English rather than say, "corn", but considering difficulties in finding supporting source material, I reckon that we cannot accept the interpretation as current evidence stands. JonRichfield (talk) 09:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

STOP PRESS found it where I belatedly thought of looking: OED,
 * Coorne, coornel (l, obs. ff. Corn, Kernel.
 * And that is the entire entry, including lack of closing parenthesis. I'll have a look at modifying our entry accordingly. JonRichfield (talk) 13:38, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Incidentally, I checked the attestation of the Flemish usage, (considering "three examples etc") but only included one quote, because there are plenty of similar items in official documents and historical anecdotes of the time in Google books, so I don't think it necessary to elaborate. But if someone want to start an edit war about it, I'll add a few extra items for the sake of peace in the valley. JonRichfield (talk) 15:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:17, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Now merged, unless someone thinks the main form should be at the other spelling. DTLHS (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wiktionary:Tea room/2016/December