text:
Talk:Cytomegalovirus

CMV in humans
The "CMV in Humans" (to the end of the article) was taken pretty much verbatim from a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document, entitled Cytomegalovirus (CMV) Infection.

As far as I can see, this is a public domain document.

I took a bit of POV out, though it's clearly oriented from the point of view of how to best manage the disease. Have at it! Rholton

CMV is not the most common agent of infection, so I removed that sentence. EBV has higher antibody prevalence rates; more fundamentally, the statement does not make sense as there are bacteria that can be found in 100% of the population (e.g., coag-negative staph) that are sometimes responsible for opportunistic infections.

From Peer Review:
 * The U.S. government is listed on Wikipedia:Public domain resources. There is a caveat or two, so check that page for more information. Unless CMV also has significant effects on animals, you should remove the heading ===CMV in humans=== and upgrade all subsequent headings as appropriate. More importantly, some separation should probably be made between descriptive content and lists of advice. People are generally averse to having instructive content on the wiki. I think that this is a case where it can stay, but only if it's separated out into a section of its own. -Smack 19:04, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The statement that CMV infection exhausts the immune system by old age needs elaboration and sources. As it exists now, it is too vague and confusing and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.55.247 (talk) 01:07, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Sexually transmitted disease category
While CMV may be sexually transmitted, my bias is that the category should include only those diseases that are classically considered STDs, e.g. gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphyllis, etc. Otherwise, to be consistent, the category should also include diseases that are not conventionally categorized as STDs like hepatitis C, etc. Andrew73 22:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Methods of contraction
Since this is herpes, would that mean it is easily contracted through saliva? In this case, kissing might be a big method of transferring it. Depending on how much of a factor it is (other environmental, or prenatal contraction), perhaps avoiding some of these physical methods of social connection would greatly extend human lifespans, until we find better methods of extending T-cell function so Cytomegalovirus doesn't take up all our immune resources. Tyciol 18:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal
HCMV (human cytomegalovirus) is redundant. Axl 21:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree G716 21:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Okay, I've done it. Axl 07:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

added reference
Ozkan TB, Mistik R, Dikici B, Nazlioglu HO.(2006) "Antiviral therapy in neonatal cholestatic cytomegalovirus hepatitis". BMC Gastroenterology 7:9. [free full text at http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/7/9]

Looks like the history page automatically documented this, so I guess this note is just clutter. (Sorry... very new at this...)

Should there be greater emphasis on the effect cytomegalovirus has in unnecessarily choking the immune system, and compromising its performance in the elderly ? If so, it is a major contributor to unwanted inflammation, and premature aging. The issues are outlined at: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/001057.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.240.172.135 (talk) 22:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to delete. I would take care of it, but do not see a delete button.

Pinnpict (talk) 06:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

how about including mention of Cytomegalovirus/herpesvirus and carotid atherosclerosis: The aric study. and other recent studies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.61.185 (talk) 06:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Please note that the virion structural schematic is incomplete - the virion particle needs a tegument between the envelope and nucleocapsid - see for example Gandhi and Khanna, Lancet Infectious Diseases 2004 4:725-38 HM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.196.164 (talk) 12:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

CMV and glioblastoma recurrence
CMV has been linked to recurrence of glioblastoma following radio/chemo. One report was in SciAm 'Mind' issue on brain. One report has Scand. work on an anti-viral as promising for glioblastoma (adding a few months to average survival) Given glioblastoma prevalence and morbidity, perhaps the importance of this article should be bumped up. (JVI) http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/81/19/10424 (NEJM) Prins RM, Cloughesy TF, Liau LM The New England Journal of Medicine 2008, 359(5):539-41 on a clinical trial (NIH 2007) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17652378 (Duke U 2008 trial, on-going in 2010) http://clinicaltrialsfeeds.org/clinical-trials/show/NCT00693095 A current clinical trial on survival times: (Baylor 2010 - starting 11/2010) http://clinicaltrialsfeeds.org/clinical-trials/show/NCT01205334 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett (talk • contribs) 14:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC) G. Robert Shiplett 13:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)i Inhibition of cytomegalovirus replication by inhibitors of (glucose to fatty acid conversion enzymes) HCMV = human cytomegalovirus ACC = acetyl-CoA carboxylase (catalyzes the conversion of acetyl-CoA into malonyl-CoA, requires biotin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetyl-CoA_carboxylase) TOFA = 5-tetradecyloxy-2-furoic acid C75 = trans-4-carboxy-5-octyl-3-methylene-butyrolactone FAS = fatty acid synthase

Treatment (10 mg ml-1) with 5-tetradecyloxy-2-furoic acid (TOFA), an ACC inhibitor, resulted in a more than 1000-fold reduction in HCMV replication. C75 (trans-4-carboxy-5-octyl-3-methylene-butyrolactone), an inhibitor of FAS, resulted in a more than 100-fold effect at the same dose enzymes that build fatty acids, acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC) and fatty acid synthase (FAS)(http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-09/uorm-ead092608.php)

Many viruses, including influenza, HIV and hepatitis, use those same fatty acids to build instead their viral envelopes, outer coatings that help them penetrate human cells. To investigate whether this requirement extended to other enveloped viruses, the team measured influenza A replication in the presence of the same TOFA and FAS inhibitors, and found similar reductions in replication. Influenza A has little in common with HCMV except for its lipid envelope. Extensive clinical testing would be needed to draw conclusions about the safety of TOFA and C75, or similar compounds, as antiviral treatment. That said, the team took an early look at toxicity, exposing uninfected fibroblasts to C75 or TOFA for 96 hours. They found that the drugs blocked HCMV replication without causing cell toxicity or self-destruction (apoptosis).

Outdated references and non-MEDR compliant
This article really needs some work.
 *  Bfpage |leave a message 02:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Needs improvement
This is a boring page. Too much taxonomy, not enough discussion of actual biology. There is no information on which cells it infects - in the mouse spleen, for example, it targets endothelial cells and causes a significant redistribution of lymphocytes - https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.ppat.0020016 170.223.207.119 (talk) 18:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Cytomegaloviruses do not infect mice. If you mean mouse cytomegalovirus, it belongs to a different genus. Ruslik_ Zero 19:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cytomegalovirus


text:
HP Utility Data Center

The Utility Data Center, or UDC, was a product of Hewlett-Packard. It was arguably the first attempt to sell a private cloud. It featured a graphical interface that allowed the user to construct a server "farm," including servers, OS provisioning, networking, firewalls, load balancers, and storage.

The product began in 2002 as an intellectual property acquisition, from a small services vendor, Terraspring, that had used the product to manage their own data center. Originally termed project slinky, it was largely based out of the Fort Collins campus, and spent the first few releases porting the original solution from a stack based upon Solaris, Cisco switches, and WebSphere, to one based on HP-UX, HP Procurve, and Bluestone's Application server. Then the team spent considerable effort improving reliability, improving security, and creating packaging, procedures and documentation to make the solution salable as a product.

HP was on its second beta release when Sun Microsystems acquired Terraspring entirely, forming the basis for the Sun N1 Grid Engine.

The project was notable, in that it was a private cloud offering, based not on the manipulation of VMs, but the allocation of bare-metal servers contained in racks. The storage was distributed to the servers via SAN Brocade switches and the manipulation of the switches via a Java-based application that commanded the infrastructure out of band, largely with SNMP.

The farms were internally represented in an XML called FML (Farm Markup language), and enacted via a Java-based engine that managed provisioning, complete with safe "clean-room" networks for safe disk wipe and load between customer allocations, and one of the first uses of SAN gateway to act as a sort of "SAN firewall" to limit WWN spoofing, that at the time, was less well understood in SANs than the equivalent LAN spoofing. Internal discussions at the time were the inspiration for what later became the introduction of Brocade's "Secure Fabric OS" – the first SAN switch to introduce the notion of WWN authentication.

Though the product did see three major deployments, the project was canceled on September 27, 2004. Opinions differ on the exact reasons, but there are three likely factors: 1) The $1 million base price for the smallest UDC: a single resource rack, a single XP 128, and a single management rack. 2) The loss of first-mover advantage spending so much time stabilizing the product, and porting to the HP hardware/software ecosystem. 3) When the "dotcom bubble bursting" reached its highest point, a significant portion of the target market segment (ISPs and IDCs) for UDC went bankrupt.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: HP Utility Data Center


text:
User:William M. Connolley/My POV on climate change

Yes, its the long awaited "what does William think about Climate Change" text. The answer, however, is dull.

I support the IPCC consensus, which includes believing that the IPCC reports accurately summarise the state of climate science (and for those who hate detail, that includes believing that the summaries accurately summarise the reports, insofar as as a shorter thing can ever accurately reflect a larger thing).

Somewhat recently, I've realised that "what is the consensus of scientists" is the wrong question: not only is it hard/impossible to answer, it doesn't really matter. The right question is "what is the consensus of the science" - which is to say, whats in the (reputable) peer-reviewed journals. My answer to that question is above.

I believe that numerous skeptics generally stick to true but misleading information, but occaisionally stray over the edge into error (e.g. the errors documented on the SEPP page, or Richard Lindzen's mistake about climate models, or John Dalys errors mentioned at the end of Temperature_record_of_the_past_1000_years).


text:
Wikipedia:Village pump/November 2003 archive 3

Compass on Canadian Cities, can it be made dynamic
Does anybody know how I can use a generic flash file on pages and load links off the page. Check out Caledon, Ontario to see the textual one, but what I wan't is to make that into a flash movie that can be placed on every page, and then place the 4+ links on each page that flash will load. This will help clean the mess of html code so people can more easily copy and past it and change the names of the north, east, west, south, and city name texts Fizscy46

 * I thought people already generally agreed that the "compasses" were not really helpful and that they did not add encyclopedic value beyond the hassle, size, and ugliness. I really don't like them myself.  Daniel Quinlan 18:15, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * Flash is big no-no in my book. I stay away from pages with flash and I have it disabled in my browsers. Although I am sure Flash could be put to good use, currently it is used for ads most of the time and you can't turn it off. It's funny, if you right click on a flash page it often has the options to disable the play and/or the loop, but those options never work. I really hate flash and it usually turns me off to sites that won't work without it. I would hate for Wikipedia to become like that and I am sure other people feel the same. That's just my opinion. Dori 18:34, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * Agreed. As an off-topic aside, I didn't enable flash until I found the Mozilla "click to play Flash animation" extension. Basically, it supresses the flash unless you click on the flash animation to start it. Prior to getting that, I just avoided flash pages. orthogonal 22:37, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I didn't even know such an extension was available. I was waiting for bug 94035 to get fixed. Thanks for the tip. Is it this one? Dori 23:45, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * Yup. orthogonal 00:00, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is there a policy for Flash content in Wikipedia? I personally think the articles should just contain text and images, but I've never encountered this before. If there isn't a policy, it seems like there should be one. —Frecklefoot 19:21, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I would second that (for the most part), as flash editing is not available to me [and probably some others]. If it's not "editedable" by the vast majority of editors/readers ... should it be included as a navigation element? what if the structure of the pages change? I could see where static content where things like flash would be good [demonstrations of a pendulum, mabey] ... but not as a nav element ... but that is only IMO ... sincerely, reddi

I didn't think it was all that difficult to fix those tables, when I made them smaller a couple of days ago (actually, that was Vancouverguy's idea, I just implemented them). You can just copy the whole thing and replace the city names, they are pretty obvious within all the HTML. I'm not sure how that would work with Flash because I don't know how Flash works in the first place, and whether or not the tables are really necessary is another story, I suppose. Adam Bishop 07:09, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Man, you guys must be old classics,sticking to the BBS and stuff. Flash adds interactivity and simplicity. Its annoying to go through the html. Much easier to just type out the 4+ links and have flash automatically do the rest... And who disabled flash... Cause you don't know what you are missing. Fizscy46
 * It's not about being old or classical, it's about maintiaining a level of backwards compatibility. As an encyclopedia, we have to be as open as possible to all, and thus with all browsers. Dysprosia 02:27, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Not to mention the fact that flash is not an open standard and only has proprietary software implementations. --Lexor 02:41, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * You actually think there are people with Internet explorer 1 and 2?Fizscy46

 * No Flash is my view. I have to have it installed but it's usually disabled via a registry block an I strongly dislike having to check the source code of the page I'm viewing to see just what ActiveX control the page is trying to get me to grant permission to run. And no, not checking is not an option - ActiveX controls are inherently unsafe. I'm also not keen on encouraging people to install something which is most often used as an ad engine to cicumvent browser restrictions on animation. JamesDay 12:06, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Redirect to headers not allowed?
Am I right in thinking that you can't REDIRECT to a Header within a page? I'm sure I read this somewhere shortly after discovering Wikipedia but I can't find where I might have seen it. I'm asking because I want to know how difficult it might be to combine several pages into one, one section per, and have each of the old pages REDIRECT to the appropriate header. How mad am I? (Serious answers only please :-) Phil 17:09, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * not that I know that it's "legal" to or not ... but wouldn't " #REDIRECT main article " work? more later [mabey] reddi

 * Yes, Reddi is correct that will work. I tried it once and was immediately reverted with the comment that it was not a good idea because headers change or are easily changed, rendering the redirect impotent w/o the the person redoing the header knowing a problem was created. I guess I'd consider why you want to combine several articles. If each is rather small by themselves then the redirect to the combined page should not really need directs directly to a header; if there is that need for clarity, consider just keeping the pages separate. The way things link together around here (hypertext) the need to have a subject all laid out on a single outlined page is not so great as in a printed doc  - Marshman 17:30, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * On that "header change" thing, it should (?) defualt to the top of the page (when the anchor isn't found) ... and I haven't found any other info on this =-\ ... reddi

 * Well I found a clue lying around under my desk, seeing as I was too lazy to go out and buy one :-), and I tested this with a couple of Subpages off my User Page. And it appears not to work. If you go to the REDIRECT page and click on the link it says it REDIRECTs to, it goes straight to the correct header. If you actuate the REDIRECT, it doesn't, it just goes to the top of the correct page. What I don't know is whether this is conclusive since it might be the fact that I'm doing it in a User page, and it's quite obvious that they work differently since I don't get a TOC. I'm rather loath to play around anywhere else (and possibly mess something up) just to satisfy my curiosity if someone who actually knows can tell me. Just because it might be a stupid question doesn't mean I'm too embarassed to ask. And no, that doesn't mean I'm not embarassed :-) Phil 17:30, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
 * It does not work. I have put in a feature request, but the feature request will only get filled if a developer finds it an interesting project.  If anybody good at snazzy web design can think of a way to emulate this with javascript, that would be very cool. DanKeshet 18:44, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Wikipedia Application Program
Hi2all,

I'm quite fascinated with Wikipedia, but I thought it would be useful if there is a (easy to use) application using Wikipedia Data to have a easy offline way to search for stuff. I know there is a Palm/PDA Version for this, but I didn't find any PC form of such a program. Is there such a program in development? Is there an interset in programming such a program?? Ska1do 18:59, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * An offline web browser tool may be the most useful. Plucker is a tool to convert web pages into electronic books of several formats, most employing compresion of some sort. Alternately, one could just download some subset of pages of interest, and browse the local copy with your HTML browser of choice. More ambitious would be to request a dump of the Wikipedi database, and mirror it locally; as the wikipedi's based on open source software, you could have your "own" wikipedia. Also, though I don't know what Palm/PDA version you refer to, most Palm readers have PCs versoiosn as well. orthogonal 22:31, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Theoretically all one needs to do is crawl through every possible page, save the generated html and images, and convert the links to be localized. Then all that is needed is a browser. Of course, this will be a big load on the 'pedia so it might need to be done on someone's own setup with a recent dump. If you had a listing of all the pages, you could do this very simply with a script or java program. The biggest effort would be in setting up a machine and getting the list of all pages. It doesn't seem that bad if someone (other than me) wants to do it :) Dori 23:39, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
 * Did some digging, and found http://download.wikipedia.org/. I hope this is what you need. -- Cyan 23:52, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * See old discussion at Wikipedia Client and elsewhere. There are several static HTML dump generation scripts floating around somewhere. Magnus Manske has been working on a MediaWiki-compatible wiki parser which can be used as a CGI with a lightweight web server for a local browsable copy with a local web browser or HTML viewer; code is in our CVS on sourceforge, module "Waikiki". Demo versions with Windows binary: English Wikipedia ~160megs, German Wikipedia ~30megs. --Brion 00:46, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Automatically generated logs
I just stumbled upon the Protection log and I was wondering if there is a list of all the automatically generated logs somewhere. I am asking about this because I couldn't figure out where/if such a log exists in the other language 'pedias (specifially http://sq.wikipedia.org that I translated). I know of List_of_articles_in_the_Wikipedia_namespace but it does not seem to be complete. thanks, Dori 00:17, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * Upload log
 * Deletion log
 * Protection log (recently added)
 * That should be it that's log pages. --Brion 00:39, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Oh, OK. For some reason I thought there'd be more. thanks Dori 03:16, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * Not quite the same thing, but there's also the Blocked users log. Angela

"Dear Readers"
What is that thing at the top of Local Church about? Is it just some rant or legitimate comment? Even if it's comment, shouldn't it be in Talk? --Menchi 05:52, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think that the standard NPOV (and maybe factual accuracy) warnings should replace this personalized message, which in turn should be moved to the talk page. I'll do it tomorrow unless I am preempted or hear dissenting opinions. -- Cyan 06:00, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * You have been preempted. Daniel Quinlan 07:59, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

Israel security wall
moved to Talk:Israeli security barrier

Image copyright
wikipedia talk:image use policy/copyright

When searching for public domain images, I often find the note: "All images on this page are believed to be public domain." Would you consider such a note as sufficient to include the images in Wikipedia, or should I regard the word "believed" as a warning not to touch these images? Example:. -- Baldhur 08:17, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think that note means: "I like the image, so I took it from another website without checking or asking the owner. If you are his or her lawyer, please don't suit me. I mean, please!!! I am ignorant, I said "I believe", didn't I?  I didn't say "I know"!"

 * I wouldn't use them, I don't know about others. --Menchi 08:43, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think you need to go on an image by image (and site by site) basis. A lot of sites just copy images from anywhere without regard for copyright.  Some sites are better than others and you can still ask the site what criteria they use for images.  There are some initial/skeleton guidelines on Copyright. Daniel Quinlan 08:51, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot for your answers, Menchi and Daniel!! I did not use these images up to now, and I won't do in the future. -- Baldhur 14:29, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Whatever you decide to do, say what you did on the image description page. Personally, I would have no real qualms about using such images, provided I made the uncertainties explicit in the image description page, unless I had some reason to doubt that they were in fact public domain. Martin 18:20, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Those will often be Fair use, particularly for the online or print Wikipedia, but you must consider them individually. It's routine for sites to have global copyright notices which don't apply and for sites to use images they don't have rights to. The Google image search is one option if you want to try to track own an image. Always worth remembering that it's preferable (strongly preferable) to use public domain or less restricted images if you can but we are trying to build an excellent encyclopedia, including one using lots of images. If you do use one of those images, please document where you got it from and why you think that it is fair use - such images are very likely to be reported as possible copyright infringements and providing good source information helps a lot. JamesDay 12:17, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Copyvio?
Is a summary based on a web page considered a copyvio? An example could be Alternative metal and http://www.bobsmusicindex.com/Alternative-Metal.html. TopCamel 13:41, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * No, it is not a copyvio, that one would be if you copy it word by word. However it is good style to add the source of your text as well, e.g. in a References list, both for giving the author of the original source their credit, as well as to allow others to check the information in that article. andy 13:58, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Andyis correct. You can even copy a sentence from something without violating copyright.(unless that sentence is a one of a kind pasterpiece)  ALWAYS INCLUDE SOURCES NO MATTER WHAT!!!  Sincerly yours, Alexandros 14:06, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Exactly! You can certainly quote people, pages, web pages, etc. if indicated as a quote and cited from what/where. If you want to take something from a web site not as a quote, but as information, then reword it to your own words but still give credit to the source, as a listing in "References" at the bottom of the article. Knowledge is something you mostly gain from others. Your duty here is to reword what you read and credit where you learned -- Marshman 03:26, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Diff inconsistency
I've noticed sometimes a page diff will have unnecessarily narrow columns (about 1/4 page wide), while other times the columns are too wide (about 2/3 of the page each, forcing one to scroll). Why does it vary? Is there anything I can do about it? Tualha 16:14, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

The Nov 14, 2003 (Tualha) "last" diff for Scheme programming language illustrates some other problems with the diff generator. Inserting a blank line after a section header caused synchronization to fail in the "Advantages of Scheme" section. In the "Examples" section, two added lines are not shown in red. It would be nice if corresponding lines were lined up, too. Tualha 16:28, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

Is there some standard page for reporting wiki code bugs, wishlist items, ideas, etc? Tualha 16:29, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * http://sourceforge.net/projects/wikipedia is what you're looking for. A better place though would probably be the tech mailing list. --snoyes 17:14, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks! - Tualha 18:11, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

"SHYSTER"- ethnic slur?
I am not sure that i am in the right place, but I used the word "shyster" and i was referred to "List of ethnic slurs-Wikipedia." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs. I am not sure how wikipedia works, but i believe the intended word was "shylock." I have checked several dictionaries and none of them list "shyster" as an etnic slur. If anyone can clarify this, please e-mail me at sealadaigh@aol.com.

It isn't an ethnic slur, it's just a slur. I'm pretty sure you found http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shyster ; that's the normal usage. DJ Clayworth 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It's a slur. Sheister - Jews - Like a shyster lawyer. One who carries on any business, especially legal business, in a mean and dishonest way. reddi

Not according to my dictionary Main Entry: shy·ster Pronunciation: 'shIs-t&r Function: noun Etymology: probably from German Scheisser, literally, defecator Date: 1844 : one who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics -- Maximus Rex 18:14, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * notice the German origin ... may be historical relic which has a more general meaning now ... reddi

So in the end, has anyone managed to find any document (even a good secondary one like a respectable dictionary) that supports a derivation of the term as an ethnic slur? Or, for that matter, good documentation of a shift into an ethnic slur? If not, the feeling that it might be an ethnic slur should go in the same class as the supposed association of "handicapped" with begging and (believe it or not) "picnic" as a reference to lynching. Both of these are patently recent inventions; is shyster any different? Dandrake 08:18, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * I checked the OED. It too has the date 1844 as the earliest use. Of the origin it says merely: "Of obscure origin." Does not even mention a possible German derivation. I think it is safe to remove it, until someone comes along with a solid reference. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 03:23, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * I checked the Webster Unabridged and it doesn't have a date but it does say this in the etymology "probably alteration of earlier shicer contemptible fellow, from German scheisser, literally, one that deficates." It also says that it is a person who is professionally unscrupulous in politics and law.  Funny thing is that it also has it as a verb. -- M1shawhan 08:35, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)

Authors
I thought that it might be a good idea to have a special page for each articles titled "Authors" or similar. All it would do is give a simple list of users/IPs that had ever contributed to said article. Firstly it would give contributors the credit that they are due. A similar thing is already being done in "page history", but is not present anymore when an article is moved, for example. Also, the "authors" page would be much simpler than having to wade through "page history". WDYT? --snoyes 17:09, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Plus it could be ordered by % contribution? (but that may cause over verboss articles Archivist 18:29, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * I'd like that feature. % contribution would be cool too, but what if someone deleted a whole huge segment of an article? Would that + or - his percentage? —Frecklefoot 19:31, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It's an interesting idea, but probably not trivial to implement. Most of all the diff needs to be smarter to notice moving of text inside the article without loosing the credit for that text. BTW: If an article is moved the edit history is moved together with the article, it is only lost when the article is moved by copying the contents. But the credit will be lost for sure if articles are merged or split. andy 20:20, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Suppose instead the page history gave a number of lines added/deleted/edited. That would give a fair idea of who had made significant contributions. DJ Clayworth 20:59, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't see how it would work. If someone vandalises an article by blanking it and I revert them, thereby adding 1000 words, it's going to look like I've made a huge contribution, when all I've done is pressed the rollback button. Angela 21:03, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * IBM had technology to solve that problem. I can't remember the link. Martin 21:20, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I guess you mean IBM History flow but I'm still not sure that would solve it. Angela 21:32, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * They're not going to share the technology with us, are they... --Menchi 00:12, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Not all articles are the target of vandalism. It seems that most of articles are primaly written by one or a few authors and many other people copyedit it. Givning credits is always a good way to recognize hard-work. The one of wikipedia's harsness is that good works are rather not given good attention while only heated debate receives public attention. This I believe make contributors feel as if they were not valuable or their works were not welcomed. The most of cases is that one or a very few of your works are controversial but the hudernreds of rest are completely welcomed. I mean so I strongly support this idea. -- Taku 23:53, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * Brevity is the soul of wit; let's order the list by the amount of text removed by editors. orthogonal 22:27, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it would work out too well. There are many issues with how the authors' works will be cited/listed and in the end it will probably end up something like the history page. This might also attract more trolls and vandals, or simply people who want their name in the list and simply make unnecessary changes. I would think most of us edit on the Wikipedia because it's fun and because it's something that will be useful to others, and not for getting our names in a list. Still, no one wants their work to be credited to someone else and we like to be recognized, but that is what the history page is for (well, among other things :). Some people list their major contributions on their own pages, so that's another outlet. That's my opinion anyway. Dori 00:02, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

I like credit for my work as much as the next person. But I see potential trouble in giving authorship credit for articles. The current relative anonymity minimizes the temptations for egotism to arise. If enacted, some people would be running around doing pointless edits on articles just to get their name listed. Others would be targeting authors they dislike. And all of us would become involved in endless disputes of whether or not someone had contributed enough to get a credit. MK 01:36 (EST) 16 November 2003

Umm, actually I don't think troubles pointed out above would materialize. Simply listing primary authors is not a big deal. You can think it is very similar to a THANKS file in open source programs. I don't see why the same trivial thing in open source doesn't work with wikipedia. You don't have to worry about that people started to make a trivial edit to have their name listed. We probably appoint someone who maintains such a list of contributors. There would be no debate who should be given credit or not. I mean have you ever seen a heated debate regarding a THANKS file? You may claim that the maintainer is not fair enough, then you don't have to stick to him. Go to other places. -- Taku 19:14, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * A similar thing is already being done in "page history", but is not present anymore when an article is moved, for example. Actualy, it is. The whole point of the page move function is that ir preserves history. -- Tarquin 19:48, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Revertion wars
The rule of three: Do not revert the same page thrice in the same day

Words to wiki by. See Wikipedia talk:How to revert a page to an earlier version. Martin 21:19, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Perfect stub article
On the Perfect stub article, the first suggested guideline is to add a link to your stub from Find or fix a stub. However, when you get to Wikipedia:Find or fix a stub, there is no place there to do so. Something has to be changed. But I don't know what. Kingturtle 04:46, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps it's supposed to be ''a link from your stub to Dysprosia 04:48, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Beat me to it, but I changed the involved text :) Dori 04:51, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

 * Kingturtle, it's actually a link to Wikipedia:Find or fix a stub so that if you click What links here from within Wikipedia:Find or fix a stub you get a list of the stub pages. Dori 05:04, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

WikiProject Chemistry
I know it's fun editing articles about Macedonia, the Catholic and Mormon churches, and maybe tomorrow we can have some fun arguing over spelling Mother Teresa's name... but, I think it's time to resurrect WikiProject Chemistry. I only spend about 10% of my time on classic sciences (originally I was a biochemistry/cell biology major), but I know you real scientists (and I don't mean computer, I'm one of those) are out there.

To start, I've added some information about the hard-to-find Inorganic table information to the project page. Is there a similar Organic table information somewhere? If not, we need to get one created and rationalize the two tables.

Once we get that done, maybe we can prioritize a list of compounds to be fixed up, etc. Daniel Quinlan 04:56, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

 * No, there are no organic tables that I'm aware of. See Talk:Inorganic table information. The excel spreadsheet and template used to create the inorganic tables can be found here. -- Tim Starling 05:58, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

Nupedia
What's up with Nupedia? Google has the text: "Unfortunately, Nupedia is unavailable due to some server problems" shown when you search for "nupedia", which means it must have beend own for a while. On Nupedia, the external link says "temporarily offline due to server troubles". According to the page history that change was made on September 26th! There is some talk on Talk:Nupedia but nothing current. I'm inclined to believe that it is truly dead. I mean how can they keep web traffic and editors if the site has been down for almost 2 months? dave 05:59, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Nupedia had been fairly inactive for some time, but putting it back online is solely a matter of restoring things from database backups. I'm assuming these exist, but I've never been directly involved in Nupedia so I don't know the details. --Brion 02:45, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I e-mailed Jason at the e-mail listed on the current Nupedia page about this, but heard nothing. Can somebody else ping him as well?  At the very least it would be nice to pull out the old text from the database so we can reuse, particularly the articles-in-progress section which had much good stuff that I was in the process of porting, (see Wikipedia talk:Nupedia and Wikipedia).   It could be just static HTML and graphics for all I care, so long as we don't lose the work done to date.  I tried using Google and archive.org to pull the old cached text, but neither of them archives the a-i-p section. --Lexor 02:47, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Inline external links
I noticed on a recent edit to World Wide Web by Mav that his summary stated:

 * DO NOT sublink external links under body prose; use wiki refs or the external links section

yet I encounter this technique of embedded links regularly, like in this short article which has seven (!) such links in the body text:

 * Pijnacker-Nootdorp

Is there any kind of concensus about this? -- Viajero 13:39, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I'd copyedit it ... mv'ing the links to a external link area (if needed) ... and mabey a ref to "see below" (as needed) ... don't know what the std nor concensus is though. Other than that you can always do a brackets notation citations (ala. [1]; how events does it), puttin' the link inline with the cited text.reddi

 * I have done the latter now, that is sometimes more convenient for the reader than links in the External Links section. Patrick 22:45, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It is perhaps better but it is still far from ideal. For example:

 * departure schedules: to rtd [1], to gvc [2], DB site [3].

 * This is not exactly intuitive, especially since such links customarily refer to citations; moreover, the text is written in a kind of shorthand (what is rtd and gvc? And many people in the Anglophone world may not know that DB stands for Deutsche Bahn. It looks like you are writing for an Dutch audience!). It is a tiny article. Why not put the all external links at the bottom with clear labels? -- Viajero 00:19, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The labels could be expanded, but it is not essential, they are already an extra compared with "departure schedules: [1], [2], [3]". I have no strong feelings either way regarding placing the links in the Ext. links section, but it would either give some duplication or some article content would be moved there too. - Patrick 11:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * If you like to demonstrate another arrangement, you could also pick another municipality, and add contents and links in the process, rather than just rearranging them. - Patrick 12:36, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I always delete inline links when I encounter them and move them to an External Links section. If they're kept inline, it's hard to tell that they're references to non-Wikipedia sites. Putting them in the External Links section makes that clear. RickK 19:58, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think what Mav meant is that body text shouldn't be hyperlinked. Wikipedia will covert a link by itself to a footnote format, which is perfectly desirably as footnotes. I suppose the Wikipedia software could be enhanced one day to automatically list these links in a reference section at the bottom of the article. Samw 01:19, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Samw, the page was just changed; look at the previous version and you'll see what I mean. -- Viajero 13:36, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Recording Wikipedia Content
Hi, I was wondering how this works with the license.

I want to make recordings of some of the content on Wikipedia, and I want to do it legally. My intention (if possible) is to make Compact Discs containing some of the text in spoken form, together with other text I have produced personally.

It is not my intention to make money out of Wikipedia content, but I am obviously free to charge for that proportion of the CD that is made from my own personal content.

I am very happy to reference the source of the Wikipedia in the manner outlined on the license (I could obviously not hyperlink), and the proposed cost of the CDs isn't going to be a great deal more that of the raw materials.

Can anyone advise on what I should do. Many thanks.

 * Not a lawyer so don't know the issues intimately, but my understanding is that you can use the works and even charge for them as long as you attribute correctly and you make available any derivative works from the wikipedia. See the GFDL for more specific information. Dori 16:20, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

 * (Also not a lawyer) Yes I think Dori has it right. Any materials you prepare deriving from Wikipedia content (and I think a spoken word version of articles counts in this respect) and then redistribute, would have to be available under the same licence. It would be brilliant if they could be available on the web and our pages could say "a spoken version of this article is available for download at ...." Pete 22:21, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Questions moved the Reference desk.

Wikipedia logo policy
Moved discussion to: Logo policy talk page.

Longest article title?
I just came across MrsFalafel's Ale, Mustard and Winter Vegetable Pie. I was curious if, at about 50 characters long, it was the longest article title in Wikipedia. Turns out, I made a few that are longer (how embarassing, really):
 * List of Afghan Transitional Administration personnel
 * Major League Baseball franchise post-season droughts

 * Afghan Disarmament, Demobilization and Reintegration Program
 * List of songs containing overt reference to real musicians

Well, I'm curious to find out, what is the longest article title? Kingturtle 18:14, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * What about Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (69). Longest place with an article may be Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (but that's just a redirect.) -- Morwen 18:17, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * List of localities in Britain where rare ant species had previously been recorded but are no longer considered to be present (104) is also a redirect. Angela 18:35, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit (188) is a redirect to Bangkok. Jay 19:54, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * P|There are huge resources of information out there, on the internet, in public libraries and other soruces; a lifetime could make only a small dent on reading all of it. Lots of that information is, of course, not particularly interesting or insightful, but even subtracting that out, you're sitll left with more than a person could ever hope to read. Thus, if you want to gain an understanding of this world through reading, you have to be selective. Paul Klenk 01:11, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Two long East Asian ones: --Menchi 01:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Memorial of the Propagation in China of the Luminous Religion from Daqin (61)
 * Narrative of the Chinese Embassy to the Khan of the Tourgouth Tartars, in the years 1712, 13, 14, and 15 (85)

I did a database search, and the longest page title is Acetylseryl.. (a redirect to Acetylseryltyrosylserylisol...serine - and still much shorter than the actual 1185-character 'word' that the page actually is about). Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit comes second.

More interestingly perhaps, the longest non-redirect page titles are:

 * 1) Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Persons and of the Exploitation of the Prostitution of Others (110 characters including spaces)
 * 2) Convention on the Prohibition of Military or Any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques (107)
 * 3) Narrative of the Chinese Embassy to the Khan of the Tourgouth Tartars, in the years 1712, 13, 14, and 15 (104)
 * 4) Timeline of quantum mechanics, molecular physics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, and particle physics (103)
 * 5) Le Punching-Ball et la Vache à lait : La Critique universitaire nord-américaine face au Surréalisme (99)
 * 6) Library of Congress Classification:Class Z -- Bibliography. Library Science. Information resources (98)
 * 7) Personal History, Adventures, Experience, and Observation of David Copperfield the Younger (1935) (97)
 * 8) Astro Creep: 2000 - Songs of Love, Destruction and Other Synthetic Delusions of the Electric Head (97)
 * 9) Library of Congress Classification:Class P, subclass PB -- Modern languages and Celtic languages (96)
 * 10) Mount Analogue: A Novel of Symbolically Authentic Non-Euclidean Adventures in Mountain Climbing (95)
 * 11) Present-day proponents of establishing cooperative relationships between humans and horses (90)
 * 12) How the law greatly increases the scope and penalties of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (89)
 * 13) Library of Congress Classification:Class P, subclass PA -- Greek language and literature (88)
 * 14) Society for the Preservation and Encouragement of Barber Shop Quartet Singing in America (88)
 * 15) Universal Negro Improvement and Conservation Association and African Communities League (87)
 * 16) List of songs in which the title pretty much sums up the entire point of the whole song (87)
 * 17) Library of Congress Classification:Class P, subclass PH -- Uralic and Basque languages (86)
 * 18) Treaty Banning Nuclear Weapon Tests in the Atmosphere, in Outer Space, and Under Water (86)
 * 19) The Internal Description of a Causal Set: What the Universe Looks Like from the Inside (86)
 * 20) God & Golem, Inc.: A Comment on Certain Points Where Cybernetics Impinges on Religion (85)

Andre Engels 11:44, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I tried to create acetylseryl.. just now, but instead it recreated the Acetylseryl.. already there, in recent changes showing my edit at MN, but in the article history as M, with no earlier edits... Coincidentally, the length of the article it recreated happens to be 28-1=255 characters long. Κσυπ Cyp 12:07, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I personally don't see the point of having articles with such long names. No one will ever get the title right when they're looking for the subject and they really mess up the formatting of pages. Perhaps the length of a title should be limited (better get a flame-retardant suit on :). Dori 17:53, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * I'd be against a "title limit". And i think the 1st two are UN bills (which would be right title for a search). Not sure about the others though ... JDR

Google/Wikipedia search engine problems
I have a question about the current Google/Wikipedia search engine, or comment. Namely, it seems to produce very inconsistent, incomplete, or paradoxical responses to inquiries. A few examples:

 * Oftentimes, I will read an article, and then do a search on the title of that article (EXACTLY as it is in the title, verbatim, down to caps even) and it fails to be found by Google to be on wikipedia. I find this very strange.  Sometimes, nothing is found; other times, other articles, that only very indirectly link to the article, are produced.  For instance, if one does a search on "Modular group" or even "Modular group Gamma", one doesn't get a link to the article entitled "Modular group Gamma", instead one gets a link to a user page, where "Modular group Gamma" is listed among several hundred pages created and/or edited by the user.  What is going on here?

 * Another example: If you do a search on "Gauss" (or even "Carl Gauss"), then you won't get the article on Gauss the person for at least a couple pages (if that, I gave up after a while), you get lots of articles with "Gauss" as a keyword, or linking to "Gauss", but not to the article on Gauss himself.  This seems very strange.

 * Many times, when looking for a specific article, (to see if it's there) I do a search and get absolutely nothing. But then, I say, "well, Google has failed me in the past, let me try directly" and I type in the actual URL of what should be the article page, and up in comes!!  There it is!

This is what I find most disconcerting about the search engine. Someone will look something up, not get any results, and just assume that it is not present in the wikipedia. They won't know the little tricks about following other search results, going to more "meta-" pages (e.g. in math, going to major mathematical pages and looking around), or typing in URLs directly. This doesn't give a bad impression to newcomers, but it certainly fails to take advantage of everything that IS here. And it's a major inconvenience to people who use the wiki.

I would like to know if I am the only user that this happens to. I only bring it up in the village pump because it has been a common, persistent, recurring problem for me ever since I started (or ever since the Google/wikipedia page came up). It's not just an isolated incident with a few searches. Revolver 15 Nov 2003

 * I think this is because google is confused about www.wikipedia.org, en.wikipedia.org, and en2.wikipedia.org. I suspect it will settle down some in the following weeks.  Also, google will often (some say always) be inconsistent on results for a website that (like this) changes often - different search servers at google (all which _appear_ to be www.google.com) are looking at subtly different sets of crawl-data.  So sometimes (especially during the "googledance", when they progressively update these database-copies) two identical queries will produce different results.  And as to the "right link being way down the search", that's a function of google's (secret, and utterly arcane) pagerank algoritm - there's not much we can do about that, as manipulating google's rankings (for good or ill) is notoriously difficult. -- Finlay McWalter 20:51, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I also had similar experiences. I have a theory for this. According to my theory, Google/ whatever might consider a page for searching only some time after the article is written, probably because it allows time(which seems to be around a month or so) for vetting by enough number of people. But the links to user pages and individual words in articles comes into the realm of search because in most cases the user page and the words that link exist much prior to the creation of the article. However, having said that, one of pages which had been there for sometime in the third page in Google suddenly disappeared for me totally, even after including the word wikipedia. I can't figure this one out. KRS 05:06, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I duuno about that. I've seen articles I've written pop up in the index within a day or two, but they have been ones that were listed (I think) for a day or so on the main page. -- Viajero 13:39, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Google only shows an article when it rescans that portion of the site. An article with few or no links may take a lot of time to be found and indexed on Google. An article listed on the main page will be found and indexed very quickly. To help, it's useful to link to articles from their parent subjects and to link to related articles, so Google and other search engines can follow the web of links between related items. Jamesday

 * Google supposedly has automatic functions to remove pages that "spam the engine", by creating synthetic cross-links or by posting many identical pages on different domains. Because of the license model, there are many fairly identical copies WP pages on non-WP sites. And of course WP has heavy internal cross-links. Could this be causing a 'false positive' in the Google spam-killer? Anjouli 07:28, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Revert a page: How?
Wikipedia talk:How to revert a page to an earlier version says a lot about why or when to revert a page, but doesn't actually explain the mechanism.

How does one revert a page, other than by copying and pasting the text of the version desired? orthogonal 01:04, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * See:How to revert a page to an earlier version. Maximus Rex 01:15, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Signing different name
I've noticed that some users, like Ed Poor and Lir, always sign as something besides their actual user name - how does one set it to do that?

 * Special:Preferences → write something at "Your nickname (for signatures):". Done. --Menchi 05:15, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Ok thanks - I guess that was just too obvious for me or something *blush*. -- Pakaran 05:16, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It took me half a year to get what "Add pages you edit to your watchlist" means in the Preferences. And I didn't figure it out on my own. :-) --Menchi 05:19, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * You can edit the pages??? orthogonal 06:39, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * That isn't the ambiguous part... is it? --Menchi 02:50, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Someone (historian) please preserve the above conversation - Marshman

AIDS
I don't see this as vandalism, so I'm putting it here for want of a better place. A logged-out user changed the article substantially to indicate that immunity to AIDS is a myth - I linked it to Accuracy Dispute for now, but I'm tempted to just revert. I know nothing about medicine though. -- Pakaran 05:10, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Revert it. It's only one group's opinion, nowhere near a consensus. RickK 05:50, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't see anything objectionable in the changes. Have I overlooked something? It's correct to talk about relative susceptibility rather than an absolute immunity. -- Someone else 06:21, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I'm no expert on AIDS, but the anonymous contributer seems pretty much correct IIRC. HIV is not SIV, the FIV stuff I hadn't heard about. But the contributor didn't say immmunity was a myth, he said that studies showing babies being spontaneously uninfected were flawed. As far as I know, only a small number of Northern European-descended persons are immune, thanks to having been selected in the Black Death (which virus entered the cells in the same way AIDS does). orthogonal 06:37, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * You're referring to people with variant (delta 32 CCR5) cytokine receptors, and it would still be better to talk about them having a lower susceptibility to HIV infection rather than an immunity to HIV infection. I think our anonymous friend can be given an all-clear. -- Someone else 07:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, I am, but clearly, not as clearly as you are. orthogonal 08:40, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Google Indexing Update
It seems to me it's been a while since Google updated its Wikipedia index. Is that our fault (i.e., did we accidentally tell its robots to go away in one of our files), or is it their fault, or is it my psychotic delusion? -- Someone else 11:22, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Having a look at the stats for this month (second to last table) the googlebot has made over 90,000 visits and accounts for 1.25% of all hits.  Going by percentage and comparing with previous months this is about normal.  However going from www. to en. seems to have affected the rankings of wikipedia pages in google.  Also having both en. and en2. addresses doesn't help.  But it will hopefully settle down in a month or two. -- Popsracer 11:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Short stories
I am writing an article on Hackers (short stories) and I was wondering if short stories should each have their own article. There isn't much to say on a short story, but they might deserve their own article nonetheless. Opinions? Dori 17:49, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * When an article about a short story becomes complex enough to warrant its own page, re-factor and give it its own page. Were I reading it, I'd want at least blurbs about each story on one page, and an "In-depth analysis" link where required; then I could use it easily both as a casual browser ("What are those short stories about") and as a more serious student ("I need to know more about 'The Greatest Short Story Ever Told: Jesus the Scrivner'"). orthogonal 18:05, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It's fine, knowing that there are people who want to include every CD albums on this planet. --Menchi 18:07, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I would oppose an article on each short story - it would make more sense to cover them all in the same page. Martin 19:38, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think it largely depends on a story. Some short stories have remarkable influence or context while many other just are parts of collection books. For example, Minority Report is actually very short but one of well-known stories of Philip K. Dick. -- Taku 00:30, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * I guess I will write an overview of each story on the page itself otherwise that page would be nothing more than a list. If someone decides that one or more of the stories deserves an article on its own, they can move it. thanks, Dori 01:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

This fits into the one longish article/lots of shortish articles decision. My personal preference is the former. The "wiki way" is probably the latter. (cf the completely disorganised but totally absorbing wikis such as the MeatballWiki). Pete 12:28, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Blank maps
I just finished making some little locator maps for the country articles, and someone suggested that I could make the basic unedited world map I used available for other people. This would make it easier for people to modify anything I've made, and might even be useful for something else. As I created the maps myself, there's no problem about usage permission, and so I've put links to them on my user page. I was wondering, however, whether there was anywhere better to put them - people aren't likely to notice them where they are. Whether they'd be of any use to people, I don't know, but I thought that there's no harm in making them available (especially to facilitate correcting what I've already done). Is there somewhere I should put a mention of them? - Vardion 04:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I copied it to Blank maps. - Patrick 04:58, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Wouldn't Meta be better as other languages are likely to want to use it? Angela 05:04, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Re-emerging debates
Is there some kind of guideline on what to do when, after consensus or at least a majority decision has been reached (delete it, merge it, keep it as a stub for the time being, or whatever) and a particular matter is accordingly dropped, it is revived at a later point by someone who has just discovered Wikipedia or that particular article?

I'm asking this question in the context of the re-emerging AIDS kills fags dead discussion (I don't have to worry about the correct link here, do I?), but there are others I could think of. --KF 09:35, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * There is something called Votes for undeletion; and AIDS kills fags dead has been a regular there IIRC. But apparently, since all our deletions are in general fairly uncntroversial, it gets very little play most of the time. In fact, people probably easily forget it exists. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 19:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * If the article is not deleted then all debate should be collated on the talk page (or an archive thereof) of the article in question. If the article *is* deleted then archived talk should be put on some page and then linked to from Archived delete debates. Newcomers are always welcome to re-open debates, although old hands will always encourage them to read old talk to save where possible going through the same debate (this doesn't always work perfectly!) Pete 20:58, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think people should look at the archived deletion debate, and make sure they fully understand the backlog, then add any new arguments they can bring to the table, then discuss the issue with those who previously expresse an opinion, and if they think they can get a rough consensus in favour of some outcome, then and only then raise the issue on VfD.
 * Of course, all this takes effort, and sadly some folks think it's easier to just list the article on VfD. Martin 21:09, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Unstubbing a stub
When is a stub no longer a stub? And who can remove the stub note? See Irish literature for an example. I guess everyone but me knows the answers. Bmills 17:11, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Irish literature is definitely not a stub. Do the honors! There are no fixed rules. Some subjects can be dealt with in a sentence or two and such articles are not stubs. Other articles are still stubs even with three or four paragraphs.

 * Done and thanks. Now, if anyone feels like helping with the article, .... Bmills 17:34, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * My threshold for stub display (see preferences) is 2000 bytes. Any article that is substantially complete with less 1000 bytes is probably not on a particularly good topic and may be ripe for merger with a parent article. Of course articles with way more than 2000 bytes may be incomplete... but I wouldn't call them stubs. Pete 20:00, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

VfD Interpretation?
How is the consensus of a VfD debate determined? I'm particularly curious regarding Talk:Easter Bradford/delete. orthogonal 23:17, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * See Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators and also deletion policy. However, note that these decisions are currently in a somewhat unsettled state, with varying views on the correct approach. Martin 23:36, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Cimon avaro would be the person to ask about that particular decision. Angela

 * I didn't make the determination of what the form of the delete debates utcomes were easily, or with haste; and even much less did the discussion guided determinations follow my own predilection on the articles in question. I followed the discussion, and the views therein. That is just about all I will add to the above. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 00:35, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)

Deletion policy?
I am a little confused about the deletion policy of Wikipedia. I am not an admin or a sysop; can I list things on the Votes for deletion page? If not, what can I do when I see a page that should be deleted (like BlogLines)?

(Err.. disregard that BlogLines example--that was deleted quickly! But my confusion about my deletion powers remains.)

 * Anyone can list things on VfD, and after 5 days, if there is a rough consensus to delete it, a sysop will delete it. Angela

 * And you can vote! *Blinking-teeth smile* Exercise your democratic power! --Menchi 01:27, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * However you don't necessarily have to list every bad article on VfD - if the new article has potential to be converted into a valid stub, then list it on Cleanup instead. And most of the time the obvious nonsense articles are deleted by admin quickly, only those which survive more then lets say 10 minutes would be worth to list to make sure they don't get forgotten. andy 09:16, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have real problems with the deletion policy. It is not democratic in the slightest! I would like to propose that instead new pages are put on 'Probation' for a month. There is an attached -VoteToKeep page linked to it and at the end of the month if there is a clear democratic majority then goodbye. But at present the time-period is too short, too unclear and hidden and opaque... ABC

Not undemocratic, hidden, nor opaque. Voting is just that -- democratic. Not hidden, since a blurb is put at the top of the page to indicate that it has been proposed for deletion and where to go to discuss it. And not opaque, since the Votes for Deletion page explains what is going on. RickK 16:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Not so sure about that. It seems to me that if a listed page is in the least controversial, the votes get lost in a welter of arguments. It might help in these cases if, at the end of the five days, all interested users came back and did a simple Yes/No vote having considered all the pro and con points raised. Bmills 16:54, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Or separate a VfD entry into two parts, argument and vote, e.g.:

 * Foo Bar Baz.
 * Discussion: (Initial reason for listing:) This is page is a vanity page authored by Mr. Baz. orthogonal 16:57, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I disagree, Mr. Baz is world famous in Japan! !orthogonal 16:57, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Votes:
 * Delete. orthogonal 16:57, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. !orthogonal 16:57, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Access to /w/wiki.phtml is denied?
I have a confession to make... now and then I count how my contributions I have made to Wikipedia. I used to do this at the click of a button - I ran a Python script that grabbed my user contributions page and then counted the number of relevant lines. However I have just tried to do this and the page returned says "You don't have permission to access /w/wiki.phtml on this server"... however I can access my contributions page perfectly happily in Internet Explorer. Has there been a software change in the last couple of months that has restricted to me only being able to access via IE? Any ideas? THanks. Pete 23:41, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, there's been a software change. You have to set the user-agent string to something identifying your bot. Sorry, I don't know how to do this in Python. -- Tim Starling 23:48, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tim. It's bound to be possible to check the user-agent id. I will find out. Given that the script would formally qualify as a bot should I do anything other than make a promise that I don't use it very often honest, gov?
 * Any pythonistas out there may like to know that to do this you need to subclass the URLOpener class in the built-in standard module urllib such that the attribute 'version' is overwritten with whatever user-agent string you fancy. Less difficult than it might sound! Pete 00:44, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * As long as you don't use it to edit or create pages in large numbers, and don't use it to an amount that much exceeds normal browsing speed, it should not be a problem. By the way, if you're interested in Python-based Wikipedia bots, take a look at http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywikipediabot/ and http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pywikipediabot/pywikipedia/. Andre Engels 11:57, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * On a bright note: what the developers taketh away the developers giveth too... it seems like the "offset" bug on the contributions page has been fixed since I last tried. Thus when I have sorted the user-agent string my script will hit the server even less as I can give it an estimate of the minimum number of edits I have done to avoid counting them over again... Thanks ever so much for whoever took the time to fix that. Pete 00:15, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Scouring for (ab)use of wikipedia content
I'd like to just stand on this here Village Pump Soapbox quickly: Can anyone who has got a minute to spare (and if you're editing WP, then you do ;-)) just paste some bit from any Wikipedia article into Google. Then check Sites that use Wikipedia for content to see whether the search returns any usage that is not already listed on Sites that use Wikipedia for content. Quick hint: choose a continuous block of words which seems somewhat unique and enclose it in quotes. Like so (from Stephen King): "wealth itself: his earliest works (Carrie, The Shining,". Here are some links to improper usage of Wikipedia content that I found in doing a few such searches (Some of them not just improper, but downright criminal):, , , Cheers, snoyes 08:12, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * ezResults.com Uses wikipedia articles as encyclopedia. Added an entry to Sites that use Wikipedia for content hope that's appropriate : ChrisG 13:46, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The japan-101.com page mentions the text is from Wikipedia way down at the bottom, so I guess it is compliant. I didn't ad the site to Sites that use Wikipedia for content though. —Frecklefoot 15:46, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Well it doesn't mention the GFDL or link to the page it is taking content from... so its not really compliant at all... perhaps it'd be best if you did list it on Sites that use Wikipedia for content.

 * Interesting work, Snoyes. One thing that intrigues me is that all the sites that use our content claim all rights reserved copyright on all non-wikipedia elements. I thought the licence was supposed to be viral in the sense that if people take free content then derived works are similarly free. This doesn't seem to be happening at this embryonic stage in Wikipedia development, in contrast to similar software projects. Pete 17:41, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

See verbatim copying. Martin 02:39, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Image attribution / sig
Can image artists sign names on their works when they agreed to let WP use their images? --Menchi 09:39, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Menchi, I don't know what you are asking. Can you be clearer?
 * Adrian Pingstone 09:45, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * When an artist draws a map/diagram/illustration and contributes it to WP, can s/he sign his/her name on it? Most artists like to sign their names on their work, and it may take some persuasion to make them not do that. Or they may just don't contribute their work to WP at all because a sense of authorship -- which is saddening. --Menchi 09:48, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * AFAIK (IANAL) there is no legal reason why they can't sign their work, and there's no legal reason we could just airbrush it out and resubmit it. GFDL requires that we credit the authors, but I don't think the authors can dictate the particular form of that credit. Since we generally frown on overt displays of authorship, I think we should discourage artists from signing work, crop or airbrush it out if possible, or look for another equivalent image if it is not possible. -- Tim Starling 10:28, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)


text:
T2FD antenna

The Tilted Terminated Folded Dipole (T²FD, T2FD, or TTFD) or Balanced Termination, Folded Dipole (BTFD) - also known as W3HH antenna - is a general-purpose shortwave antenna developed in the late 1940s by the United States Navy. It performs reasonably well over a broad frequency range, without marked dead spots in terms of either frequency, direction, or angle of radiation above the horizon.

Although inferior in terms of efficiency (at least 30% of the RF power is lost as heat in the resistor ) to antennas specifically designed for given frequency bands, or optimized for directionality, its all-around performance, relatively modest size, low cost, and the fact that it does not require any complicated matching to operate with a standard shortwave transmitter, have made it popular in professional shortwave communications where ERP or gain are not a concern. One example would be clear channel low power HF communications.

History
The history of the T²FD antenna divides conveniently into three different phases: It was first developed for use as a general purpose antenna on Naval ships in the 1940s. The design became public in the 1950s and was adopted by radio amateurs, but then fell out of use with the advent of shorter wavelengths and the widespread adoption of low-impedance transmitters and antenna feeds. Recently, with the advent of multiple new frequency bands which are not even-integer multiples of existing bands’ frequencies, it has started to draw renewed attention from radio amateurs.

Origin
The T²FD antenna was originally developed during WW II at the San Diego naval base for use on ships at sea, where antenna size is limited, but where salt water under the ship or seaside station makes an efficient radio-frequency ground-plane. The design properties of the antenna make it ideal for use in small spaces at long wavelengths, where no short antenna can be aimed in any particular direction, anyway, and where the number of antennas is limited, compared to the large number of operating frequencies with exceedingly different wavelengths.

Early amateur use
One of the developers of the original Navy antenna, Captain G.L. Countryman, was an amateur radio enthusiast. He introduced the design to other amateurs at the beginning of the 1950s. It was a popular antenna design during the middle of the 20th century, but fell out of common use during the latter part of the century with the growing popularity of upper HF and VHF frequencies, which only required more feasible length 16 feet, or smaller, dipole antennas, as opposed to 70 ft quarter-wave antennas needed for the lower "short"-wave bands. Another factor contributing to its fall in popularity was the increasing use of low-impedance 50 Ω antenna feedline, which requires impedance matching at the T²FD feedpoint.

Recent revival
Since the late 1980s, amateur radio operators and hobby shortwave listeners have ‘rediscovered’ this antenna, especially for broadcast receiving and for amateur two-way modes such as Morse code and PSK31 where crude signal strength is not as important as a ‘steady’ signal.

There have also been disputed claims that this antenna is comparatively insensitive to man-made radio interference; if true, that would make the design useful in urban environments, where a low noise floor is often more beneficial than high received signal strength. The T²FD is useful for hidden indoor systems, or where several optimized frequency-specific antennas cannot be accommodated. For example, an indoor antenna only 24 feet long will allow operation on all amateur HF bands above 14 MHz on transmit, and down to 7 MHz on receive.

Construction
A typical T²FD is built as follows, out of two parallel-wire conductors:

 * Span near a half-wavelength of the lowest required frequency.
 * Distance between upper and lower conductors equal to $1⁄100$ of the wavelength. This distance is maintained by a number of insulating dowels.
 * At least two dowels at the ends are tied to non-conducting ropes, which in turn are tied to supports.
 * The upper and lower ends of the conductors are connected at the ends, by wire sections that follow the end dowels.
 * Fed in the middle of the lower conductor, with an impedance in the order of 300 Ω, balanced, through a standard 4:1 balun. This provides an acceptable all-frequency match to commonly available 75 Ω coaxial cable.
 * Terminated in the middle of the upper conductor with a 400–480 Ω non-inductive resistor, rated to safely absorb at least $1⁄3$ of the applied transmitter power. The resistor absorbs a growing portion of the RF power (either captured from the air or supplied by a transmitter) as the operating frequency nears the lower limit of the design range. The resistor can be built of 10 parallel sets of three 1,600 Ω, 1 W resistors, in series.
 * In order to make it roughly omnidirectional, the antenna is ideally strung sloping at an angle of 20–40 degrees from horizontal, but will also function satisfactorily if mounted horizontally, as long as it is pulled-out in a reasonably straight line.

The commercially available B&W AC3-30 and B&W DS1.8-30 antennas vary from the above to cover 3–30 MHz using a 90 foot length with an 18 inch spacing of the wires. The balun is a 16:1 ratio, thereby transforming the 50 Ω (ohm) coax to an 800 Ω feed at the antenna. The resistor load is also 800 Ω, non-inductive. This allows the antenna impedance to swing from 400–1,600 Ω over the frequency range intended and thus keep the SWR at the transmitter 2:1 or lower.

Applications and drawbacks
An antenna such as the one described above is usable for both local and medium-long-distance communication across a frequency range of about 1:6. For example, an antenna for the lower portion of shortwave (say, 3–18 MHz) will be roughly 33 m (110 feet) long, with conductors spaced 1 m (3.3 feet). For the higher portion of shortwave (5–30 MHz), this antenna will be roughly 20 m (66 feet) long, with a spacing of 60 cm (24 inches). If such long spans cannot be accommodated, smaller antennas will still give adequate receive-only performance down to about half of their lowest design frequency.

Transmit performance, however, degrades rapidly below a certain point. Tests done by J.S. Belrose (1994) showed that though the conventional T²FD length is close to a full-size 80 meter (3.5–4.0 MHz) antenna, the antenna starts to suffer serious signal loss both on transmit and receive below 10 MHz (30 m), with the 80 meter band signals −10 dB down (90% power loss) from a reference dipole at 10 MHz.

As a broadband antenna, the T²FD will normally display a reasonably low standing wave ratio (SWR) across its entire frequency range. However, at some frequencies the antenna feedpoint may be moderately reactive, so the use of an antenna tuner may be needed when using modern solid-state transmitters at anything approaching their rated power output.

Note that “low SWR” does not mean “high antenna efficiency”. This antenna is not recommended for those wanting to make challenging long-distance signal contacts with limited power (e.g. the U.K. limit of 400 W, or the U.S. amateur limit of 1,500 W). At shortwave frequencies, a dipole cut for the longest used wavelength, fed with ladder line and matched with an antenna tuner, would make better use of the applied power than the T²FD.

Many ready-made commercial versions of the T²FD are available for the professional, military, amateur radio, and hobby listening markets.

title: T2FD antenna


text:
Bohemianism

Bohemianism is a social and cultural movement that has, at its core, a way of life away from society's conventional norms and expectations. The term originates from the French bohème and spread to the English-speaking world. It was used to describe mid-19th-century non-traditional lifestyles, especially of artists, writers, journalists, musicians, and actors in major European cities.

Bohemian is a 19th-century historical and literary topos that places the milieu of young metropolitan artists and intellectuals—particularly those of the Latin Quarter in Paris—in a context of poverty, hunger, appreciation of friendship, idealization of art and contempt for money. Based on this topos, the most diverse real-world subcultures are often referred to as "bohemian" in a figurative sense, especially (but by no means exclusively) if they show traits of a precariat.

Bohemians were associated with unorthodox or anti-establishment political or social viewpoints expressed through free love, frugality, and—in some cases—simple living, van dwelling or voluntary poverty. A more economically privileged, wealthy, or even aristocratic bohemian circle is sometimes referred to as haute bohème (literally "Upper Bohemian").

The term bohemianism emerged in France in the early 19th century out of perceived similarities between the urban Bohemians and the Romani people; La bohème was a common term for the Romani people of France, who were thought to have reached France in the 15th century via Bohemia (the western part of modern Czech Republic). Bohemianism and its adjective bohemian in this specific context are not connected to the native inhabitants of the historical region of Bohemia (the Czechs).

European bohemianism
Literary and artistic bohemians were associated in the French imagination with the roving Romani people, often pejoratively referred to as "gypsies". Romani were called bohémiens in French because they were believed to have come to France from Bohemia.

The title character in Carmen (1875), a French opera by Georges Bizet set in the Spanish city of Seville, is referred to as a bohémienne in Meilhac and Halévy's libretto. Her signature aria declares love itself to be a "gypsy child" (enfant de Bohême), going where it pleases and obeying no laws.

"The term bohemian has come to be very commonly accepted in our day as the description of a certain kind of literary gypsy, no matter in what language he speaks, or what city he inhabits .... A Bohemian is simply an artist or 'littérateur' who, consciously or unconsciously, secedes from conventionality in life and in art."

Henri Murger's 1845 collection of short stories, Scènes de la vie de bohème (Scenes of Bohemian Life), was written to glorify and legitimize the bohemian lifestyle. Murger's collection formed the basis of Giacomo Puccini's 1896 opera La bohème.

In England, bohemian in this sense initially was popularised in William Makepeace Thackeray's 1848 novel Vanity Fair. Public perceptions of the alternative lifestyles supposedly led by artists were further molded by George du Maurier's romanticized best-selling novel of Bohemian culture Trilby (1894). The novel outlines the fortunes of three expatriate English artists, their Irish model, and two colourful Central European musicians, in the artist quarter of Paris.

In Spanish literature, the Bohemian impulse can be seen in Ramón del Valle-Inclán's 1920 play Luces de Bohemia.

In his song "La Bohème", Charles Aznavour described the Bohemian lifestyle in Montmartre. The 2001 film Moulin Rouge! also imagines the Bohemian lifestyle of actors and artists in Montmartre at the turn of the 20th century.

American bohemianism

In the 1850s, Bohemian culture started to become established in the United States via immigration. In New York City in 1857, a group of 15 to 20 young, cultured journalists flourished as self-described bohemians until the American Civil War began in 1861. This group gathered at a German bar on Broadway called Pfaff's beer cellar. Members included their leader Henry Clapp Jr., Ada Clare, Walt Whitman, Fitz Hugh Ludlow, and actress Adah Isaacs Menken.

Similar groups in other cities were broken up as well by the Civil War and reporters spread out to report on the conflict. During the war, correspondents began to assume the title bohemian, and newspapermen in general took up the moniker. Bohemian became synonymous with newspaper writer. In 1866, war correspondent Junius Henri Browne, who wrote for the New York Tribune and Harper's Magazine, described bohemian journalists such as he was, as well as the few carefree women and lighthearted men he encountered during the war years.

San Francisco journalist Bret Harte first wrote as "The Bohemian" in The Golden Era in 1861, with this persona taking part in many satirical doings, the lot published in his book Bohemian Papers in 1867. Harte wrote, "Bohemia has never been located geographically, but any clear day when the sun is going down, if you mount Telegraph Hill, you shall see its pleasant valleys and cloud-capped hills glittering in the West..."

Mark Twain included himself and Charles Warren Stoddard in the bohemian category in 1867. By 1872, when a group of journalists and artists who gathered regularly for cultural pursuits in San Francisco were casting about for a name, the term bohemian became the main choice, and the Bohemian Club was born. Club members who were established and successful, pillars of their community, respectable family men, redefined their own form of bohemianism to include people like them who were bons vivants, sportsmen, and appreciators of the fine arts. Club member and poet George Sterling responded to this redefinition:

"Any good mixer of convivial habits considers he has a right to be called a bohemian. But that is not a valid claim. There are two elements, at least, that are essential to Bohemianism. The first is devotion or addiction to one or more of the Seven Arts; the other is poverty. Other factors suggest themselves: for instance, I like to think of my Bohemians as young, as radical in their outlook on art and life; as unconventional, and, though this is debatable, as dwellers in a city large enough to have the somewhat cruel atmosphere of all great cities."

Despite his views, Sterling associated with the Bohemian Club, and caroused with artist and industrialist alike at the Bohemian Grove.

Canadian composer Oscar Ferdinand Telgmann and poet George Frederick Cameron wrote the song "The Bohemian" in the 1889 opera Leo, the Royal Cadet.

The impish American writer and Bohemian Club member Gelett Burgess, who coined the word blurb, supplied this description of the amorphous place called Bohemia:

"To take the world as one finds it, the bad with the good, making the best of the present moment—to laugh at Fortune alike whether she be generous or unkind—to spend freely when one has money, and to hope gaily when one has none—to fleet the time carelessly, living for love and art—this is the temper and spirit of the modern Bohemian in his outward and visible aspect. It is a light and graceful philosophy, but it is the Gospel of the Moment, this exoteric phase of the Bohemian religion; and if, in some noble natures, it rises to a bold simplicity and naturalness, it may also lend its butterfly precepts to some very pretty vices and lovable faults, for in Bohemia one may find almost every sin save that of Hypocrisy. ...

His faults are more commonly those of self-indulgence, thoughtlessness, vanity and procrastination, and these usually go hand-in-hand with generosity, love and charity; for it is not enough to be one's self in Bohemia, one must allow others to be themselves, as well. ...

What, then, is it that makes this mystical empire of Bohemia unique, and what is the charm of its mental fairyland? It is this: there are no roads in all Bohemia! One must choose and find one's own path, be one's own self, live one's own life."

In New York City, the pianist Rafael Joseffy formed an organization of musicians in 1907 with friends, such as Rubin Goldmark, called "The Bohemians (New York Musicians' Club)". Near Times Square, Joel Rinaldo presided over "Joel's Bohemian Refreshery", where the Bohemian crowd gathered from before the turn of the 20th century until Prohibition began to bite. Jonathan Larson's musical Rent, and specifically the song "La Vie Boheme", portrayed the postmodern Bohemian culture of New York in the late 20th century.

In May 2014, a story on NPR suggested, after a century and a half, some Bohemian ideal of living in poverty for the sake of art had fallen in popularity among the latest generation of American artists. In the feature, a recent graduate of the Rhode Island School of Design related "her classmates showed little interest in living in garrets and eating ramen noodles."

People
The term has become associated with various artistic or academic communities and is used as a generalized adjective describing such people, environs, or situations: bohemian (boho—informal) is defined in The American College Dictionary as "a person with artistic or intellectual tendencies, who lives and acts with no regard for conventional rules of behavior".

Many prominent European and American figures of the 19th and 20th centuries belonged to the bohemian subculture, and any comprehensive "list of bohemians" would be tediously long. Bohemianism has been approved of by some bourgeois writers such as Honoré de Balzac, but most conservative cultural critics do not condone bohemian lifestyles.

In Bohemian Manifesto: a Field Guide to Living on the Edge, author Laren Stover breaks down the bohemian into five distinct mind-sets or styles, as follows:
 * Beat: also drifters, but non-materialist and art-focused
 * Dandy: no money, but try to appear as if they have it by buying and displaying expensive or rare items – such as brands of alcohol
 * Gypsy: the expatriate types, they create their own Gypsy ideal of nirvana wherever they go
 * Nouveau: bohemians that are rich who attempt to join traditional bohemianism with contemporary culture
 * Zen: "post-beat", focus on spirituality rather than art

Aimée Crocker, an American world traveler, adventuress, heiress, and mystic, was dubbed the "queen of Bohemia" in the 1910s by the world press for living an uninhibited, sexually liberated, and aggressively non-conformist life in San Francisco, New York, and Paris. She spent the bulk of her fortune inherited from her father Edwin B. Crocker, a railroad tycoon and art collector, on traveling all over the world (lingering the longest in Hawaii, India, Japan, and China) and partying with famous artists of her time such as Oscar Wilde, Robert Louis Stevenson, Mark Twain, the Barrymores, Enrico Caruso, Isadora Duncan, Henri Matisse, Auguste Rodin, and Rudolph Valentino. Crocker had countless affairs and married five times in five different decades of her life, each man being in his twenties. She was famous for her tattoos and pet snakes and was reported to have started the first Buddhist colony in Manhattan. Spiritually inquisitive, Crocker had a ten-year affair with occultist Aleister Crowley and was a devoted student of Hatha Yoga.

Maxwell Bodenheim, an American poet and novelist, was known as the king of Greenwich Village Bohemians during the 1920s and his writing brought him international fame during the Jazz Age.

In the 20th-century United States, the bohemian impulse was famously seen in the 1940s hipsters, the 1950s Beat generation (exemplified by writers such as William S. Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, and Lawrence Ferlinghetti), the much more widespread 1960s counterculture, and 1960s and 1970s hippies.

Rainbow Gatherings may be seen as another contemporary worldwide expression of the bohemian impulse. An American example is Burning Man, an annual participatory arts festival held in the Nevada desert.

In 2001, political and cultural commentator David Brooks contended that much of the cultural ethos of well-to-do middle-class Americans is Bohemian-derived, coining the oxymoron "Bourgeois Bohemians" or "Bobos". A similar term in Germany is Bionade-Biedermeier, a 2007 German neologism combining Bionade (a trendy lemonade brand) and Biedermeier (an era of introspective Central European culture between 1815 and 1848). The coinage was introduced in 2007 by Henning Sußebach, a German journalist, in an article that appeared in Zeitmagazin concerning Berlin's Prenzlauer Berg lifestyle. The hyphenated term gained traction and has been quoted and referred to since. A German ARD TV broadcaster used the title Boheme and Biedermeier in a 2009 documentary about Berlin's Prenzlauer Berg. The main focus was on protagonists, that contributed to the image of a paradise for the (organic and child-raising) well-to-do, depicting cafés where "Bionade-Biedermeier sips from Fair-Trade".

title: Bohemianism