text:
Talk:Uru: Ages Beyond Myst

Former 'Uru: Ages Before Myst' text
''The following text is from the misnamed page Uru: Ages Before Myst. Copied here in case someone wants to add some of it to the article.''

Developed by Cyan Worlds (previously known as Cyan Inc), Uru: Ages Beyond Myst is the next step in the well known Myst series of games. This new game takes advantage of both 3D realtime technology to explore 3D realistic worlds in real time, and of a broadband Internet connection enabling multiple players to experience the game together.

Uru is different than many other computer games out there. Uru is a game of exploration, the goal is to explore mysterious worlds, or ages, rather than to shoot at things. The game's plot revolves around the D'ni civilization. The D'ni were a race of people who lived in an underground city in a huge cavern somewhere under New Mexico. They had developed a technology called "The Art", which enabled them to write books so descriptive that they transported the reader to the worlds they described.

Uru had been under development by Cyan Worlds for four years since 1998. Originally the game was called DIRT, which stands for D'ni In Real Time. Later, they called it MUDPIE, which stands for Multi User Dirt Plasma Interactive Experience. It takes a lot of Dirt to make a Mudpie. Still Later, their publisher, Ubi Soft, gave it the name Myst Online as a code name, and finally Cyan decided to call it Uru: Ages Beyond Myst.

 * I added some of this (entirely reworded, though) into the main page. Most of this text sounds non-factual - for example, the "It takes a lot of Dirt to make a Mudpie" sentence feels out of place, as it isn't explained well. I'm leaving the text here in case anyone else feels there is more valuable info in it than I have found... -- Chucker 18:26, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

One sentence in under the Until Uru section doesn't make sense to me: "Server administrators can access players have (for example, cones and barriers in the style the DRC had put them up can be positioned inside the caverns)..." Should the sentence read "Server administrators can restrict access players have..."? I believe that Chucker created this section; as I'm unsure of what he meant, I'll leave the edit to him. -- Sahara Beara 18:26, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

Location of the Cleft
The Cleft is in New Mexico. This has been confirmed by Cyan employee RAWA ("Dr Watson"), as well as by Rand Miller. In the book of Ti'ana the Cleft is indeed implied to be in the middle-east, but this is artistic licence by the book's real author, David Wingrove. Apparently he changed the backstory a bit, and this was not caught by Cyan employees in time (who were working on Riven at the time). As for the strategy guide, I own it. It is presented as an explorer's journey, and it is that explorer's initial thoughts that the Cleft is a reproduction -- albeit a perfect copy. This is clearly not the case. Jordi·✆ 01:34, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It wasn't that he changed the backstory; he wasn't given that detail in the first place. Cyan wanted to keep it secret, so they just told Wingrove it was by a random volcano in a random desert.  Wingrove added the Middle-East flavor.  Cyan almost certainly caught it, but they were okay with the mislead.  They even treated it in-character as a deliberate DRC tactic later.  :)

 * And yeah, about the strategy guide. He was in disbelief about the Cleft being real at all, not just about its location.  :)

 * --SFT 12:22, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)

 * I'm willing to subscribe to the notion that the Cleft might not be in the Middle East, but how, then, do you explain the fact that there are no volcanoes in Eddy County, New Mexico (the location of the Cleft in Uru)? A misprint of the sign? --SciGuy65 23:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The fact that D'ni is fictional. SFT 16:08, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

 * An elaborate cover-up by the DRC. Further misdirection by Cyan. Or perhaps because D'ni, and all of Myst, is fiction. Jordi·✆ 18:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

History of Uru Hacking
While I agree with the revision removing the text on Uru Hacking as horribly lacking in NPOV, I do think that Uru Hacking would be useful to cronicle in the history of UU. It has been a critical part of the community. Blade 06:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Split into Uru Prime and Uru Live
Maybe we should split this into Uru: Ages Beyond Myst and Uru Live, as Uru Live is now becoming a different thing than just the online extension of Uru Prime? Opinions? Blade 21:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I propose to wait and see how the new Uru Live will develop Gbnogkfs 27 may 2006, 14:14 (UTC)

 * If eventually (hopefully) it does come about, we should make a new page. Now, however, there's not much info on it that really justifies a new page, and there's always the possibility that it could still be canceled. Maybe when Beta starts or sometime when there's more information available. Korinth111 18:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I propose that we wait, because this is just still getting underway. I think, to create a URU live page already would just serve to confuse people. Already, we're getting people on the forum asking "So where is it?  Where is URU live?"  Better to just point them to the FAQ and emphasize "holiday 2006".  At that point, then let's talk about a URU live page.  ToriaURU 02:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Except that if you look at it, we've got a lot of stuff with just as much or less information listed under the category "Computer and video games under development"... I'm too lazy to start one myself, but there probably should be one. Maratanos 00:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

International Uru
I just revised the edit that made it seem like Uru Live will not be available outside the US. That's incorrect. Yes, GameTap is unavailable outside the US. But the Uru Live FAQ says both that you dont have to have GameTap for Uru Live AND that Uru will definitely be available internationally. Blade 06:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * And translated. Gbnogkfs 28 may 2006, 11:22 (UTC)

 * Yes, people just do not seem to read the FAQ. It's quite annoying to have to repeat that news again, and again.  ToriaURU 02:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Uru release date
I have a suggestions; shouldn't the date that Uru was released be right up there at the top of the article? I don't know when Uru came out myself (was it in 2003?). If someone else does know, then I just want to encourage them to put the date clearly up at the top of the article. Thank you! --Jonathan talk 19:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's in the table in the upper left of the article. Blade 03:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see...but couldn't I also add it to the introduction? --Jonathan talk 14:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Clutter?
Maybe it's just me, but the article seems to be a bit cluttered. Much of the Kagi Key issues (minus one or both of the quotes; the issues they bring up are important to Uru history but not necessarily pertinant enough to have a quote, especially concerning Gamerzunion, as nothing has ever, to my knowledge, come from that) could be merged directly into a bigger Until Uru section that could also include D'mala. And is 'Gameplay' really the right word for what has evolved into a short history of Uru? Korinth111 23:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I would agre that these sections are cluttered, and also I feel they are poorly worded. --TheIslander 09:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The quote from Rand Miller about the keys could be removed, the link reference to it would do.
 * Mention of GamerZunion: could be removed, I think it's not notable, nothing developed from it. --Bisco 02:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggested merge with Mudpie article
Mudpie: I think this code name doesn't need a seperate article. It's a stub and tagged for having only few links. I think all notable information could be included here. The mudpie article could then remain as disambig page for the seperate meanings. --Bisco 02:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me Blade 03:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. --I80and 21:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * disambig page sounds good to me also. --EarthFurst 21:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Too Many Fan Site links?
The Fan site section seems really bloated. What do people say about pairing it down significantly? Blade 06:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The international links could be moved to the corresponding localized Wikipedias (like es.wikipedia.org and fr.wikipedia.org).

Tapestry should be removed from the forums section, as the forum no longer exists. --EricLarge 00:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Kadish Tolesa in Munich?
When the movie Munich came out in 2005, I saw a commercial for it that featured the song from Kadish Tolesa. I can't find the commercial online anywhere, does anyone know anything about this? Sailorknightwing 02:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * see article Uru Music. Mads Angelbo Talk / Contribs 18:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just saw that. Whoopsie! Thanks. Sailorknightwing 01:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge in Uru Music article
It is a stub, and would bolster this article as it heads for GA or FA status. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, merge... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 01:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. The articles are probably stronger together than they are separate. For both positive (better chance of reaching GA) and negative (failure to meet WP:NOT, WP:N) reasons. Randomran (talk) 01:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Go for it. Rehevkor ✉  01:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely. I can't honestly see there ever being enough on the subject for its own article, in fact had I seen it I would have suggested a merge. ----Ged UK (talk) 07:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Merge in Myst Online
Basically all the development information for this article was taken and made into its own article. The Myst Online game is a modified version of this one, and if put back into this article eliminates a big stub, and sets the stage for a very comprehensive article that could be featured. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 22:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Go for it. I was initally skeptical, but I can see sense to this now. Merge it, we'll get a far better article as a result. -- Sabre (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not at all convinced. They are very distinct games, though admitedly with a big overlap. My worry is that the distinction between the two games will be lost if they are all one article. We have to be very careful that the reader does not become confused between the two things. The online version of ABM never really got beyond beta, it failed. The Gametap version is so different in terms of accessing and in-game interaction that it is really a separate game.
 * I also don't really see how it 'eliminates a big stub'; it just makes the article longer. The section on Uru live in this article is, in my opinion, already too long and confuses things.
 * I don't see why not having Uru Live in stops this article becoming featured (or the other one for that matter); FA isn't about quantity of content, but quality of content. If the overwhelming opinion is to merge them, fine, but like I said, we need to be very careful to maintain the distinction from the game. --Ged UK (talk) 08:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If the Uru Live section in this article is too long, then I very much dont see why you support a separate and longer article for it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 13:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't, I'd prefer a seperate article for Uru Live, not the short lived beta that ABM had. They're different. This article should only refer to the live beta up to and including the Shards. When gametap took over, it's a different thing, this article should simply then link to the other one, not go into detail about that. ABM can still be played, Uru Live can't. --Ged UK (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aside from information about the shards, which I haven't expounded, and the various chapters of Myst Online, the information present is really all the info suitable for a general encyclopedia. What else would you add that would allow Myst Online to be featured? -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 17:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Definitely strongly oppose this. As Ged UK points out, the two are completely separate beasts, on the whole. The main (big, I'll certainly admit :P ) similarity is that they are set in the same universe, and were both born from the same concept. However, as Ged points out, the original URU Live lasted a matter of weeks before Ubisoft pulled the plug. We then have Until URU, a community run venture, which was followed by Myst Online: URU Live, run by Gametap. A completely new game, this incarnation had a completely new physics engine, so was basically re-written from scratch. It also contained a lot more content that the original URU Live, clearly, as it actually lasted a year - time for Cyan to get their teeth into it, to an extent. Gametap then pulled the plug, and we had the idea of MO:RE, and that in turn has been put on hold due to financial difficulties. As you can see, Myst Online, in it's various guises, has a lot of (sourceable) history, that just shouldn't clutter up this article. All this can be traced from decent sources, and all of this deserves it's own article, just as Myst shouldn't be merged with Riven, or Myst IV with Myst V - they're separate games. Granted, the current MO:UL article is somewhat a mess (though not as bad as it was before July...), and needs a lot of work. It does not need to be merged. On a small note, I believe what Ged means when he says that the section in this article is already 'too big' is that it just contains too much information to remain self-contained in this article - it needs it's own separate article. I've discussed this extensively with David in the past - see here, in his archives. Talk Islander 20:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, quick note: Let's get our terminology right. The Myst Online: Uru Live article is in no way, shape or form a stub - not at all. According to WP:STUB: "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject" - see what I mean? Talk Islander 20:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

 * (written during an edit conflict) As I said before, it's not a question of quantity, but quality. Simply adding a load more stuff on another, albeit related game, is no more likely to get an article to featured status than leaving it out. It's perfectly possible to get short articles to featured. Well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral, stable, all of those are achievable without adding extra related content. The comprehensive criterion I'm sure can be met provided the article covers everything about ABM; I really don't see the need to add stuff about URU Live for the sake of getting it to featured. They really are two separate things. ----Ged UK (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The article does not have enough reliable sources to justify its own article, most of the text is too detailed to be included in a wikipedia article in the first place, and the rest is mostly unsourced and likely unsourcable. So it is a stub in terms of reliably sourced non-trivial content. And all of that material can fit quite nicely into this article without having a large unimprovable stub article detailing unsourcable game trivia. So let's merge it and delete the large amount of trivia that pretends to be an article so we can have one article that actually meets the wikipedia criteria. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've pretty much finished my final run-through on sources, and in terms of content I can see maybe another paragraph of information on Myst Online's reception in terms of Wikipedia-worthy content. That can easily be integrated into this article's reception. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 21:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, well, if you wish to delete to MO:UL article in order to merge into this, you'll have to take it to AfD, as at least two of us oppose this merge, negating the possibility of a WP:BOLD merge. Talk Islander 21:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * AfD isn't the place for editorial discussions such as merges. If you want, we can start an RfC (as attempts at getting more eyes on WT:VG has evidently failed.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 21:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * An RfC would certainly be better than nothing, but it still won't attract as much attention as an AfD, which is a perfectly valid route to take for deleting an article, which you must effectively do to complete a merge. Talk Islander 21:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Or we could have you dig up more information to demonstrate that it should have it's own article, as David has already searched and found not enough to justify a whole article. If you could do that, then we would know for sure whether or not it could stand on its own, or if not, you would then have to agree that it should not have its own article. Sound like a plan? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 00:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can find. Give me a few days (like over the weekend). Clarification: This is separate to the eight distinct cites that are already in this article in the MOUL section? --Ged UK (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ←In addition to what's already here. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 15:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't get a chance to do this this weekend. I haven't forgotten it, please don't charge on regardless. Thanks! --Ged UK (talk) 12:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What about this: since the article as currently written would have to be dramatically revamped anyway, why don't we just userfy Myst Online in someone's space? That way it can be improved and we can evaluate if it works as a standalone article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 13:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't get a chance either - appologies. WP:DEADLINE springs to mind - the article has survived for however many years so far, why is there a rush to get it deleted/merged? It won't affect the quality of other articles. I know you're working very hard on (and have done a bloody good job of) getting all the Myst articles gradually up to FA standard - why not just hold back a bit on this one for a bit? Talk Islander 13:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, in part I don't want to keep the GA reviewer waiting on this. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 13:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But my point is, if in this article you mention MO:UL to a certain depth, and then refer to the main MO:UL article, will the poor quality of the main MO:UL article really drag this one down? Surely this article should stand on its own - if, at a later date, it is agreed that the two articles should be merged, then that can be done then. Talk Islander 14:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose. Carry on then. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 14:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But some point soon, please check, because this article being crappy is an obstacle to a Myst featured topic, which is literally a week or two away from completion. It may be better to userify it, and if you find more references, it can be restored and improved. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You've got my word that as soon as I've got the time, I will work on it. However, I still don't understand why it should affect any other article at all - it's (currently) a very poor article, but why does that drag down any other article? Talk Islander 20:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What Judge is getting at is that minus Myst Online and a successful GA for the series article, the featured topic is complete. But Myst Online would be part of the topic, so it couldn't be nominated until the Myst Online gets through GA, because the criteria require it neglect no aspect of the topic. -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 00:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, so both VG talk and a RfC have gotten nowhere... can we just shunt the article to userspace until additional sources are found? -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 03:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The Myst featured topic is complete, so let's put this in the userspace till someone finds a lot more references, and let it be nominated as a featured topic. And if more references are found, I'm sure David will bring that to GA status and add it in. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 05:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, sorry. I don't know why you're in such a rush, I really don't, but Wikipedia has no deadline. There is no valid reason to move that article to userspace - it stands on its own. Again, I'm not for a moment saying that it doesn't need improving, but there is no reason to move it out of the mainspace. Talk Islander 09:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Moving an article out of the mainspace so that it doesn't affect a featured topic is non-sensical. If the point of a featured topic is to havea arange of featured or good articles on a related theme, then simply moving one poorer article out of the way lessens the accuracy of the whole topic. --Ged UK (talk) 10:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering that all the relevant info is already in this article... It's not reducing accuracy, just redundancy. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 15:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the relevant info shouldn't be in this article, it should be in the other one. --Ged UK (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But you haven't proved as above that it can stand on its own with development, reception, et al. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 17:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break one
←News just in on Friday: URU Live is to become an open-source project. Now, if being one of the very few (perhaps only, though I don't know on that front) open-sourced MMORPG's doesn't make the MO:UL article stand up on it's own, I don't know what does. Talk Islander 21:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Which would, for all intents and purposes, make it a completely different game from Uru Live (and Tony Fryman's own words make that distinction). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 22:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, not at all. I have to say, I fail to understand your logic - it's the same game (as URU Live / Myst Online, not URU ABM): same engine, same story, same mechanics, same source code, same everything. Only difference is, it will now be open source, and run mainly by the fans instead of Cyan - almost like Until URU. Talk Islander 22:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was referring to "My definitions: "UruLive" is the original dream of the virtual world. And "MystOnline" is the current implementation of UruLive." Either way, the announcement changes very little; we don't have articles on game announcements. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 22:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If anything, what you've quoted shows that Cyan see this as a separate game, i.e. the 'dream of a virtual world', and it's implementation. The above anouncement isn't for this game (URU ABM), it's for another entirely notable game (MOUL). David, if you don't wish to work on the MOUL article, that's entirely fine, it really is. However, there is no way that that article qualifies for deletion/merging/moving to the user space. Yes, it needs a tonne of improving, but it stands on it's own, is notable on it's own, and is actually a damn good starting framework for what could eventually be another Myst FA. Either work on it or ignore it - please stop needlessly hunting it. Talk Islander 22:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not "needlessly hunting" it; I believe in quality, not quantity. Do I really have to flippin' go through all those hoops just to show that it would be better as merged content rather than a standalone article? -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 23:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, because so far you've failed to convince either me or Ged. Talk Islander 09:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because clearly you guys are the be-all and end-all of wisdom. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 15:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:NPA, please... that aside, to delete/merge/userify this article, you need consensus, something you definitely don't have right now. Talk Islander 17:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Go away. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 17:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No :). Now, could we either continue discussion civily, or end them? Talk Islander 19:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have made it quite clear you are only going to stand in the way of improvement and not do jack youself, so I see no point in continuing this. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 19:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

←Well, my definition of improvement is not deleting perfectly valid articles that require more work. That aside, agreed, let us end this dispute. Talk Islander 19:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I intend to copy the MOUL article (the other one, not this one) into my sandbox to work on over the christmas break to see what I can come up with (dependant on me clearing some of the other stuff on my to-do list!). I do understand the argument of merging together to improve the overall Myst topic, but they really are two different, but related games. --Ged UK (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * In all honesty, it would be much better if you just worked on it in the mainspace, thus maintaining the edit-trail (which would be lost if you edited it in your user space). Working on it over Christmas, however: great idea! Talk Islander 23:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, i usually work from my sandbox to avoid downtime periods making an article seem incomplete (usually where I get distracted by something shiny), but I can work in the mainspace one too. --Ged UK (talk) 10:07, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Pre-FAC audit
I figured it would be faster if I just made the changes I would have otherwise listed here. So, there you have it. One point of clarification, though: It's probably ready after this. -- Laser brain  (talk)  19:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Due to business reasons, GameTap announced in February 2008 that the game would go offline in April ..." Does the source get any more specific than "business reasons"? I want to rewrite that sentence, but is it financial reasons? Or they just got sick of it? Or what?
 * 'Business reasons' is pretty much all the info Gametap gave - you can look over the press release here. I'll take a look for anything better, but I'm fairly sure that any further detail would be unsourced speculation. Talk Islander 19:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, typical corporate PR-speak. Well, best left as-is then. Thanks! -- Laser brain  (talk)  19:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Interview with Rand Miller
http://gamestudies.org/1001/articles/pearce_celia

Perhaps this could be added/used.

This piece is of interest:

CP: According to the wikipedia entry on Uru, the game took more than five years and $12 million dollars to make. Is that correct? How long did it take and how many people worked on it?

RM: That's as good a guess as any. I prefer not to actually go back and add it all up at this point. ☺ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kienle (talk • contribs) 14:56, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't think there's anything usable in that respect. We have it linked near the top of this page already as press that have referenced this article. Rehevkor ✉  17:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Although it's nice to have verification (of a sort.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 14:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"Until Uru"
That is mentionned once in the Uru Live subsection but not before; it is not explained what "Until Uru" is and I, as a reader, am not sure what it refers to. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  ✉  18:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated according to the source, others are welcome to clean up.  Я ehevkor ✉  19:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

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"Burn You Up, Burn You Down"
There seems to be no mention of this Peter Gabriel track in the article. ("Burn You Up, Burn You Down" plays from a radio hanging from the awning of Zandi's trailer near the Cleft, becoming audible as the player draws near. While the full song is in the game files [in mono, as I recall], only a continuously looped section of the song plays in-game.)  It is notably different from the versions on Hit and Big Blue Ball, but apparently was released by Gabriel as the original Uru mix at some point. If someone can find appropriate citation, please kindly add it! 2601:3CA:204:F860:C18:AC4F:8C57:F533 (talk) 14:45, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any indication of the track in reliable sources; the closest I get is but it's just a stray mention in addition to his work on Myst.  Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 20:08, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Uru: Ages Beyond Myst


text:
Harlon Hill

Harlon Junius Hill (May 4, 1932 – March 21, 2013) was an American professional football end who played for nine seasons in the National Football League (NFL). Hill played for the Chicago Bears, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and the Detroit Lions. He was the NFL Rookie of the Year in 1954 and winner of the Jim Thorpe Trophy as the NFL Player of the Year in 1955. The Harlon Hill Trophy, named in his honor, is awarded annually to the nation's best NCAA Division II football player. After his playing career, he became a coach and educator.

Early life and college
Hill was born in Killen, Alabama. Following graduation from Lauderdale County High School in nearby Rogersville in 1949, he attended Florence State Teachers College, now known as the University of North Alabama. Football was just making its return to Florence State in 1949 after several years absence due to low male enrollment. Hill was a four-year letterman on the football team, while also earning a Bachelor of Science degree in Education.

He played both offense and defense, but it was his offensive efforts that saw him named an NAIA All-American player his senior year in 1953. As with many college teams of the era, Florence State was a run-based offense and threw the ball sparingly. However, Hill made the most of his chances with 19 of his 54 career catches going for touchdowns.

In his 1977 biography Victory after the Game, Hill related his surprise at being selected in the 15th round of the 1954 NFL draft by the Chicago Bears, remaining unaware of it until approached with the news by a Florence State professor on campus: '"I had no idea I had been `discovered.' I really did not know much about the National Football League...I did not know what to think, but after I found out what it was all about, naturally I was elated." Hill went on to say he owed the discovery to a rival school. A coach for Jacksonville State University had observed Hill's play over four seasons and mentioned him to a Bears scout.

Professional career
Hill's rookie season with the Chicago Bears was a memorable one. He set a team record for most receiving yards (1,124) and most touchdown receptions (12) by a rookie. The twelve touchdowns led all NFL receivers that season as he averaged 25 yards per catch on 45 total receptions, the latter of which was a Bears record for a rookie until it was broken by Darnell Mooney in 2020. His best performance that rookie year came on October 31, 1954, against the San Francisco 49ers. Hill was a Halloween nightmare for the 49ers defense, racking up 214 receiving yards and four touchdowns, the final one coming with thirty seconds left in the game to give the Bears a four-point victory. Numerous accolades came Hill's way following that season, among them being named 1954 NFL Rookie of the Year, being an All-Pro selection, and participating in the 1954 Pro Bowl.

Hill's performance numbers were down somewhat the next season, 1955, with 789 yards on 42 receptions. However his nine touchdown catches again led the league and he was once again selected All-Pro and Pro-Bowl participant. The 1955 season also saw Hill be the first ever recipient of the Jim Thorpe Trophy as NFL most valuable player. 1956 would prove to be Hill's career best statistically with 47 catches, 1,128 receiving yards and 11 touchdowns as the Bears advanced to the NFL Championship Game against the New York Giants. Hill and the Bears were beaten soundly, 47-7, on a very icy Yankee Stadium field. After the season Hill was voted an All-NFL 1st team player by numerous media including the Associated Press, United Press, and the Sporting News. He was chosen Captain of the Western Conference squad for the 1956 Pro Bowl game, which lost in a close affair, 31-30.

Injuries began to take their toll on Hill's NFL career in the late 1950s, the most serious one being a completely severed Achilles tendon in 1958. According to Hill, he was the first professional athlete to recover from the surgical repair and continue his career. The injury robbed him of much of his speed however and his offensive numbers steadily declined, with his last touchdown reception coming in the 1959 season. By 1961, his final year as a Bear, he managed only three catches for 51 yards on the season. Hill attempted to play again in the 1962 season, splitting time between the Steelers and Lions and accumulating 101 receiving yards on 14 catches. He retired from football at the conclusion of the 1962 season. Hill still holds several franchise records with the Bears and ranks among the best in others. His nineteen games with 100 or more receiving yards are still a record as are his 1,124 rookie receiving yards and 12 rookie touchdown catches. The four touchdown receptions in one game (San Francisco, 1954) are tied with Mike Ditka for team lead all-time. His career 4,616 receiving yards and 40 career touchdown receptions (32 of them coming in a 3 year span from 1954 through 1956) rank him second best all-time for Chicago.

The Professional Football Researchers Association named Hill to the PRFA Hall of Very Good Class of 2014.

Franchise records
's NFL off-season, Harlon Hill held at least 15 Bears franchise records, including:
 * Most Receiving Yds (rookie season): 1,124 (1954)
 * Most Receiving Yds (game, as a rookie): 214 (1954-10-31 @SFO)
 * Most Yds/Rec (career): 20.42
 * Most Yds/Rec (season): 24.98 (1954)
 * Most Yds/Rec (rookie season): 24.98 (1954)
 * Most Receiving TDs (career): 40
 * Most Receiving TDs (game): 4 (1954-10-31 @SFO)
 * Most Receiving TDs (rookie season): 12 (1954; tied with Mike Ditka)
 * Most Receiving TDs (game, as a rookie): 4 (1954-10-31 @SFO)
 * Most Rec Yds/Game (rookie season): 93.7 (1954)
 * Most Yds from Scrimmage (game, as a rookie): 214 (1954-10-31 @SFO)
 * Most 100+ yard receiving games (career): 19
 * Most 100+ yard receiving games (season): 7 (1954; tied with Jeff Graham and Brandon Marshall)
 * Most 100+ yard receiving games (rookie season): 7
 * Most 1000+ receiving yard seasons: 2 (one of five players)

Life after the NFL
Hill returned to his native Alabama when his playing days were finished. He fought a successful battle against alcoholism and returned to his alma mater (then known as Florence State Teachers College), serving as an assistant football coach for the University of North Alabama in the late 1960s while also working toward a Master's degree in Education. After earning his Master's in 1969 he became a public school teacher and coach at Brooks High School, eventually becoming the school's principal. In 1986 a new award was created to highlight America's best NCAA Division II players, named the Harlon Hill Trophy in honor of his playing career. Often considered the Division II equivalent of the Heisman Trophy, it is awarded annually during the NCAA Division II Football Championship weekend in Florence, Alabama. Hill retired from the Lauderdale County, Alabama, school system and resided in Alabama until his death. Hill died March 21, 2013, at Eliza Coffee Memorial Hospital in Florence, Alabama, following a prolonged illness.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Harlon Hill


text:
Echoes (Pink Floyd song)

"Echoes" is a song by the English rock band Pink Floyd, and the sixth and last track on their 1971 album Meddle. It is $23 1/2$ minutes long, the second longest of their discography, 2nd to Atom Heart Mother Suite, and takes up the entire second side of the original LP. The track evolved from a variety of different musical themes and ideas, including instrumental passages and studio effects, resulting in the side-long piece. The music, credited to all the band, was mainly written by Richard Wright and David Gilmour, while Roger Waters' lyrics addressed themes of human communication and empathy, to which he returned in later work.

The song was performed live regularly by Pink Floyd from 1971 to 1975, including a performance in the film Live at Pompeii (1972). It was used for the opening shows on the 1987 A Momentary Lapse of Reason Tour but subsequently dropped. David Gilmour revived "Echoes" for his 2006 On an Island Tour, which featured Richard Wright, but retired the piece after Wright's death in 2008. However, Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets has since played the song as part of its Echoes Tour. The studio recording was used in the film Crystal Voyager (1973) while an edited version is included on the greatest-hits album Echoes: The Best of Pink Floyd (2001).

"Echoes" has been regarded by critics as an important song that transitions between Pink Floyd's early experimental material as a cult band and later mainstream success. Several publications have remarked it as one of the best songs by the group. The group have mixed views of the track, but it was a particular favourite of Wright's.

Structure
"Echoes" begins with a "ping" that was created as a result of an experiment very early in the Meddle sessions, produced by amplifying a grand piano played by Richard Wright and sending the signal through a Leslie speaker and a Binson Echorec unit. After several "pings", a slide guitar played by David Gilmour gradually joins in. The verses are sung in harmony by Gilmour and Wright, and joined by a riff played by Gilmour and bassist Roger Waters in unison. This is followed by a guitar solo from Gilmour, played on a Fender Stratocaster through a Fuzz Face effects box, before repeating the previous riff. This leads into a funk-influenced jam.

The middle section of the song features Waters using a slide and a Binson Echorec. Gilmour plays a high-pitched screeching noise, which was created by plugging a wah-wah pedal in back to front (the guitar was plugged into the output of the pedal, and the input of the pedal was plugged into the input of the amplifier). Drummer Nick Mason later clarified that it was an accident, and their experience with working with Ron Geesin had taught them to embrace experiments and try anything if it would work on a song. This is followed by a repeat of the opening piano "pings" and a Farfisa organ solo from Wright, with a backing influenced by the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" (1967).

Following a final third verse, the end of the piece features a choral-sounding segment playing a Shepard tone. This was created by placing two tape recorders in opposite corners of a room; the main chord tapes of the song were then fed into one recorder and played back while at the same time recording. The other recorder was then also set to play what was being recorded; this created a delay between both recordings, influencing the chordal structure.

Composition
"Echoes" began as a collection of separate musical experiments, some of which were left over from previous sessions. The group then arranged the pieces in order to make a coherent piece originally referred to as "Nothing, Parts 1–24". Some pieces featured band members playing a recording without any idea what the rest of the group had or were going to play, while others simply had vague notes such as "first two minutes romantic, next two up-tempo". Not all of the pieces were used for the finished track, and out-takes included saying a phrase backwards, so it would sound correct yet strange when the tape was reversed. Subsequent tapes of work in progress were labelled "The Son of Nothing" and "The Return of the Son of Nothing"; the latter title was eventually used to introduce the as-yet-unreleased work in its first live performances in early 1971.

Wright said he composed the piano intro and the main chord progression of the song, and that Waters wrote the lyrics. During early development, before the first verse was finalised, it referred to the meeting of two celestial bodies. For the final lyrics, Waters took inspiration from his time in London in the mid to late 1960s, feeling a sense of disconnection and looking for the potential for humans to connect with each other. One particular observation was looking from his flat on Goldhawk Road and watching a procession of commuters walk past, which led to "Strangers passing in the street". "Echoes" established a trend with Waters to write emphatic words and explore the theme of communication, which would be a key theme of The Dark Side of the Moon (1973) and later solo work.

Pink Floyd rehearsed the completed piece before committing a final version to tape. Studio recording was split between Abbey Road Studios, Morgan Studios and AIR Studios in London; the latter two were used because they had a 16-track recorder, which made assembling the individual components of the songs easier. The basic backing tracks were recorded between 7 and 19 March at Abbey Road, with the further overdubs recorded at AIR from 30 March to 1 May, with additional work at Morgan. Pink Floyd were featured on an episode of the BBC1 programme 24 Hours discussing bootleg recordings, which showed them rehearsing "Echoes" in Abbey Road.

"Echoes" features a prominent instrumental riff that is identical to the main theme in Andrew Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical The Phantom of the Opera. Waters thought of suing Lloyd Webber for plagiarism, but did not do so. Instead, he dissed Lloyd Webber in "It's a Miracle" on his 1992 solo album Amused to Death.

Live performances
Pink Floyd first performed "Echoes" at Norwich Lads Club on 22 April 1971, and it was a regular part of the band's set, up to the concert at Knebworth Park on 5 July 1975. It was originally announced by its working title, "Return of the Son of Nothing" and not formally identified as "Echoes" until the group's tour of Japan, starting on 6 August 1971. Occasionally, Waters would introduce the song with silly titles, such as "Looking Through the Knotholes in Granny's Wooden Leg", "We Won The Double" (a reference to Arsenal F.C. winning the double in the 1970–71 season), and "March of the Dambusters".

The song was played at a BBC Radio 1 concert on 30 September 1971 and broadcast on 12 October. Shortly afterwards, Pink Floyd filmed a live performance at the Amphitheatre of Pompeii with no audience for Live at Pompeii, where it was split in two halves to open and close the film. "Echoes" was one of four pieces that Pink Floyd played in collaboration with a ballet choreographed by Roland Petit in late 1972 and early 1973. The track featured a solo ballet piece for Rudy Bryans of the Ballets de Marseille. For the group's 1973 shows at Earl's Court, the performance of "Echoes" featured large quantities of dry ice being poured onto the stage during the middle section, and sheets of flame shooting from a cauldron at the back of the stage.

From late 1974 to the Knebworth concert, "Echoes" was performed as an encore. These performances featured backing vocals by Venetta Fields and Carlena Williams and saxophone solos by Dick Parry instead of the guitar solos in earlier performances. "Echoes" was performed for the first eleven shows on the band's 1987 A Momentary Lapse of Reason tour, in a slightly rearranged version trimmed down to 17 minutes. However, Gilmour was uncomfortable about singing the "hippy" lyrics, and the touring musicians found it difficult to replicate the sound of the studio original, so it was replaced with "Shine On You Crazy Diamond".

Gilmour resurrected the song on his 2006 On an Island Tour as the closing number of the main set, with Wright performing in his band. Wright said he still liked playing the song live and was amazed by the audience response to the opening "ping" when on tour. These performances appear on Gilmour's Remember That Night film and Live in Gdańsk album/film. A special acoustic version, featuring just Gilmour and Wright and filmed live at Abbey Road, featured as a hidden track on Remember That Night. Gilmour told Rolling Stone in 2016 upon returning to Pompeii to play a solo show that he would have loved to perform "Echoes" but felt he could not do so without Wright, who had died in 2008 – "There's something that's specifically so individual about the way that Rick and I play in that, that you can't get someone to learn it and do it just like that." Similarly, Mason initially did not play "Echoes" live with Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets as he felt the track is too strongly identified with Wright, but included the song for the 2022 tour named "The Echoes Tour".

Release
"Echoes" occupied the whole of the second side of the album Meddle, released on 30 October 1971. Mason later said this might have been because the group wanted to put more suitable material for radio on side one. An edited version of the song appeared on the 2001 compilation Echoes: The Best of Pink Floyd, and as part of an 8-track promotional sampler.

The live performance at Pompeii was released to cinemas in September 1972. It was first released on video in 1983, then on DVD in 2003. Several works-in-progress pieces and live performances were released on the 2016 box set The Early Years 1965–1972.

Reception
In a review for the Meddle album, Jean-Charles Costa of Rolling Stone gave "Echoes" a positive review. Costa described "Echoes" as "a 23-minute Pink Floyd aural extravaganza that takes up all of side two, recaptures, within a new musical framework, some of the old themes and melody lines from earlier albums", adding: "All of this plus a funky organ-bass-drums segment and a stunning Gilmour solo adds up to a fine extended electronic outing."

NME covered Pink Floyd's opening date on their 1972 UK tour at the Brighton Dome and called "Echoes" a highlight of the set, saying that it was "masterful". Reviewing the 1975 Knebworth concert, Sounds said that despite a mixed performance in the main set, "Echoes" was "pretty superb" and "played flawlessly". Rolling Stone said that Gilmour's live performance of the piece at Gdańsk at the end of the On An Island Tour in 2006 was "jaw-dropping". Touring guitarist Phil Manzanera said "that version of 'Echoes' was the longest one and the best one. Life is funny. It's cosmic. It's like Richard knew something was up, and he stayed on longer. It's a magical song."

Author Ed Macan has called "Echoes" Pink Floyd's "masterpiece" and an important bridge between the group as a cult band and later mainstream success. Andy Cush has said that the track is a transition between the group's experimental material and later commercial success, emphasising that it is "ambitious beyond anything Pink Floyd had attempted before, wild beyond anything they’d attempt after". In 2008, Uncut magazine ranked "Echoes" number 30 in a list of Pink Floyd's 30 best songs, while in 2011, readers of Rolling Stone named it as the fifth-best song by Pink Floyd.

The members of Pink Floyd have mixed views on the track. Wright said that the piece was "a highlight" and "one of the finest tracks the Floyd have ever done". Waters and Gilmour have said that it was a foretaste of things to come in The Dark Side of the Moon, while Mason has said that it was "a bit overlong".

Film
The 1973 George Greenough film Crystal Voyager concludes with a 23-minute segment in which the full version of "Echoes" accompanies a montage of images shot by Greenough from a camera mounted on his back while surfing on his kneeboard. The group allowed Greenough and director David Elfick to use the music in their film in exchange for the use of Greenough's footage as a visual background when they performed "Echoes" in concert. In the early 1990s, this footage was planned to be used in an advertisement for toilet cleaner, but it did not get clearance from the band.

Similar to the Dark Side of the Rainbow effect, fans have suggested that "Echoes" coincidentally synchronises with Stanley Kubrick's 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey, when played concurrently with the final 23-minute segment titled "Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite". Kubrick would later feature copies of both the soundtrack to 2001 and Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother (1970) as props in the record store scene in A Clockwork Orange (1971).

Cover versions
Alien Sex Fiend covered the track for a Pink Floyd tribute album A Saucerful of Pink, released in July 1995. British musician Ewan Cunningham covered "Echoes" in 2017 and uploaded a YouTube video that featured him playing all of the parts himself. This cover was heavily based on the Live at Pompeii version and went on to receive praise from Mason, who humorously said: "Looks like we're all out of a job!"

The acoustic guitar duo Rodrigo y Gabriela covered "Echoes" on their 2019 album Mettavolution, one of seven tracks which won the album an award for Best Contemporary Instrumental Album at the 62nd Annual Grammy Awards in 2020. In reviewing this cover version, Rolling Stone wrote that "like the original, the song is its own journey, and it's beautiful".

Personnel
According to Jean-Michel Guesdon and Philippe Margotin:
 * David Gilmour – vocals, electric guitar
 * Richard Wright – vocals, Hammond organ, piano, Farfisa organ
 * Roger Waters – bass guitar
 * Nick Mason – drums, percussion

title: Echoes (Pink Floyd song)


text:
Talk:Free Spirit

I'm removing the link to the h2g2 article, which is rather shoddy. I mean, one, I don't believe there's any Sufi-Free Spirit connection (search Google for "Free Spirit" Sufism, his is the first site and the only one on the heresy). The furthest Sufism got was Spain, while all reports of Free Spirit occurred north of there. And anyway, the tenets of Sufism are nothing like the ones the author reports for the Free Spirit, which incidentally, are also wrong. They believed in Heaven and Hell, though not Purgatory. And though they believed that All is Divine, it'd be more appropriate to say that Everything is Divine, but some things are Diviner than others. Lastly, Heinrich Suso, though he was a mystic, but one that fiercely denounced Free Spirits on multiple occasions. And the reference to Spinoza, who lived four centuries after the time they're talking about, is just bizarre. And they weren't gnostic. And that whole intro bit about some 'riddle' is nonsense (or at the very least confusing), they didn't think God was partly evil at all. Lord that article was awful, I just had to vent.

All my info, by the way, comes from the Heresy of the Free Spirit in the Later Middle Ages, which I saw in a used bookstore and, remembering this page, bought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.74.177.230 (talk • contribs).

title: Talk:Free Spirit


text:
William C. Dement

William Charles Dement (July 29, 1928 – June 17, 2020) was an American sleep researcher and founder of the Sleep Research Center at Stanford University. He was a leading authority on sleep, sleep deprivation and the diagnosis and treatment of sleep disorders such as sleep apnea and narcolepsy. For this pioneering work in a previously uncharted field in the United States, he is sometimes referred to as the American father of sleep medicine.

Biography
Dement was born in Wenatchee, Washington, in 1928. In the 1950s, of those who also studied at the University of Chicago he was the first to intensively study the connection between rapid eye movement and dreaming. His fellow student Eugene Aserinsky had mentioned to him that "Dr. Kleitman and I think these eye movements might be related to dreaming". Aserinsky, along with his and Dement's adviser Nathaniel Kleitman, had previously noticed the connection but hadn't considered it very interesting. Dement had an interest in psychiatry, which in those days considered dreams to be important, so he was excited by the discovery and was eager to pursue it. From the University of Chicago, he received an MD in 1955 and a PhD in neurophysiology in 1957 for the thesis Rapid eye movements during sleep in schizophrenics and non-schizophrenics and their relation to dream recall supervised by Kleitman.

He began his work in sleep deprivation at Mount Sinai Hospital in the late 1950s – the early 1960s. In 1964, he monitored and assisted Randy Gardner's successful attempt to break the record for longest time without sleep. He was among the first researchers to study sleeping subjects with the electroencephalogram (EEG), and he wrote "I believe that the study of sleep became a true scientific field in 1953, when I finally was able to make all-night, continuous recordings of brain and eye activity during sleep." Studying these recordings, he discovered and named the five stages of sleep. In collaboration with Dr. Christian Guilleminault, Dement proposed the measure that is still used for the clinical definition of sleep apnea and the rating of its severity, the Apnea Hypopnea Index (AHI).

Dement, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine, taught the large and popular "Sleep and Dreams" course at Stanford, which started in 1971.

In 1975 he launched the American Sleep Disorders Association, now known as the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, and served as president for its first twelve years. In that same year he and Mary Carskadon invented the Multiple Sleep Latency Test used to measure sleepiness, a test of how quickly people fall asleep, sleep onset latency, during several daytime opportunities.

He was also chairman of the National Commission on Sleep Disorders Research, whose final report led directly to the creation of a new agency within the National Institutes of Health, the National Center on Sleep Disorders Research.

Dement was the author of The Promise of Sleep and The Sleepwatchers, and wrote the first undergraduate textbook in the field. The Promise of Sleep was featured in the 2012 independent comedy film Sleepwalk with Me, and Dement also made a cameo appearance in the film.

At the start of his academic career, he was a jazz musician and played bass. While at the University of Washington, he played with Quincy Jones, a time during which he also befriended Ray Charles. During the late 1980s, while at Stanford, he was known to have played, on at least one occasion, with artist-in-residence, Stan Getz.

He lived with his family in northern California. Dement died in Stanford, California, on June 17, 2020, from cardiovascular disease at the age of 91.

title: William C. Dement


text:
Samuel W. Smith

Samuel William Smith (August 23, 1852 – June 19, 1931), was a politician from the U.S. state of Michigan.

He was born in Independence Township and attended the common schools in Clarkston and Detroit. He began teaching school in 1869, served as superintendent of schools in Waterford Township in 1875 and also served as principal of the school at Waterford, Michigan. He went on to study law, was admitted to the bar in 1877 and graduated from the law department of the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor in 1878. He began legal practice in Pontiac, where for six months he worked alone with considerable success, and then formed a partnership with Levi Taft Aaron Perry. Perry retired from the firm during the second year of the partnership, but the connection between Taft and Smith continued until the death of the former in 1897. Smith was prosecuting attorney of Oakland County from 1880 to 1884. He served in the Michigan Senate from 1885 to 1887, representing the 15th District. He was elected as a Republican from Michigan's 6th congressional district to the 55th United States Congress and to the eight succeeding Congresses, serving from March 4, 1897, to March 3, 1915. During his tenure, Smith was chairman of the Committee on the District of Columbia in the 60th and 61st Congresses. He did not stand for reelection to the 64th Congress, but moved to Detroit in 1913 and continued the practice of law. He died in Detroit and was buried in Oakwood Cemetery in Adrian, Michigan.

title: Samuel W. Smith


text:
Talk:Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Requested move 22 September 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. -- Calidum 04:12, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

– This appears to be the main topic for the name CBC on Wikipedia. — Ð W (T•C) 23:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Canadian Broadcasting Corporation → CBC
 * CBC → CBC (disambiguation)
 * Note: CBC titles a dab page with content, so it is ineligible unless it is also renamed. This request has been modified to reflect that fact.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 00:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - while CBC is the branding, the full legal name remains Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and that should be the name of the article just as the name of the BBC's article is British Broadcasting Corporation or the article for ABC is American Broadcasting Company. There are cases where we do use the initials such as CBS but in that case the company legal changed its name from Columbia Broadcasting System Inc to CBS Inc in 1974. The CBC has never legally changed its name to its initialism. Similarly, NBC hasn't legally been the National Broadcasting Company for some time. Also, CBC does not have the same recognition internationally and there are a number of other entities that use the CBC initialism. Sowny (talk) 23:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC is at BBC, not the full name, and for ABC, both the American and Australian companies have relatively equal claim to primary significance. This issue with ABC is rather unique, and I don't think that's the case for CBC. kennethaw88 • talk 01:29, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * And the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation? Sowny (talk) 01:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Well I don't know about the BBC, perhaps the wikipedia article is wrongly named, but officially the CBC remains the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation so that should be the title. See Conversely, CBS and NBC officially dropped their original names years ago and adopted the initialisms as their official names. CBS is run by the CBS Entertainment Group which in turn is owned by ViacomCBS - officially there hasn't been an entity called the Columbia Broadcasting System since the 1970s. Similarly, NBC is operated by NBC Entertainment, which is owned by NBCUniversal Television and Streaming and there hasn't legally been an entity called the National Broadcasting Company for decades. However, legally there is a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Sowny (talk) 02:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation is also listed at CBC; what's your point? My point is that the comparison to ABC isn't really a good one, because in that case, the usage is roughly evenly split. That is not the case here. For example, here are the relative page views for Canada/Caribbean: |Caribbean_Broadcasting_Corporation. Do you have other evidence that the usage for CBC is not so one-sided? kennethaw88 • talk 04:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You've ignored my main point. Do you have any evidence that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is no longer the CBC's legal name the way Columbia Broadcasting System is no longer CBS's legal name? Sowny (talk)

 * Oppose Not always known by the initials. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * CBC is overwhelmingly more used than the full name, like probably an order of magnitude.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It may be used more frequently in Canada, but not around the world. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I doubt that usage of the full name is much different outside of Canada or that usage of the full name outside of Canada has a big impact, see: (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=cbc,%2Fm%2F0hm0k) it is google trends so take it with a grain of salt blindlynx (talk) 20:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Curious. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose first move, support second While there are many media and organizations that use CBC as acronym (ex. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Carribean Broadcasting Corporation, Capital Broadcasting Center in Egypt, etc) even in medical terms it has known as Complete blood count, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is the primary abbreviation for CBC. It was different from 14 years ago when similar RM takes place. Anyone who typing "CBC" in internet will see it as a Canadian one in first result, even in news articles most of them are published by CBC News itself, which based in Canada. So move disambiguation page over redirect would be necessary than just move the page. In other side, first title should be maintained as this as Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is the legal full name of CBC. 180.244.145.224 (talk) 09:14, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You haven't explained what to do with title "CBC": I assume a primary redirect to Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose as WP:NATDAB per WP:NCBC. Generally, the change doesn't seem to be a worthwhile improvement. -- Netoholic @ 09:18, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Yes, it's pretty much always known by the acronym.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per & .  I will also say that despite how commonly "CBC" is used in Canada to refer to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, there are many other prominent uses of the acronym throughout the world, including Complete blood count (medical term), Cannabichromene (chemistry, medicine), Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation (Barbedos), Capital Broadcasting Center (Egypt), and there are various colleges in the US and Canada that use the acronym "CBC".  We are supposed to take a global view.  I don't think doing so permits us to give prominence to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation over other "CBCs".--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME; WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and the BBC precedent blindlynx (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose per Sowny. Metric Supporter 89 (talk) 02:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 22 July 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 19:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation → CBC/Radio-Canada – Although the broadcaster is officially known as the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, it is often referred to as CBC/Radio-Canada because its French networks use the name Radio-Canada. — Ð W (T·C) 21:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support This name is the name of the corporation but this article is about the Radio side of the corporation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for actually making sense! — Ð W (T·C) 04:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia. We should use only the official name in English. --  Denelson83  21:56, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Um, this article is in the location of this corporation's official name and it only discussed the radio systems. They are currently named CBC Radio One and CBC Radio Two and are collectively called CBC/Radio-Canada to distinguish it from Radio International. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en See what comes up just at https://www.cbc.ca/. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * So there should be no article on Wikipedia with the name "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation"? And what's "Radio International"?  And there is a section in this article discussing the corporation's television assets.  It does not just focus on radio. --  Denelson83  07:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Not my point. This article Could probably be a general one about the CBC while the separate media entities could have their own articles. Radio Canada International is Radio Canada International. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Oppose - discussion is moot until proposer actually demonstrates that the preponderance of independent, reliable sources refer to this company as such. -- Netoholic @ 17:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose for reasons unknown to Wikipedia policy. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Denelson83.  Peter Ormond 💬  03:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per . — Eric0892 (talk) 05:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You all just love love this "Denelson83" rando, don't you? — Ð W (T·C) 04:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

‘’’Oppose’’’ per Denelson83 Newfiebluejay (talk) 14:02, 29 July 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sourcing for CBC Allegations of Bias
Hello all,

I am starting on a project to bring improved rigor and evidence to Wikipedia's representations of the bias of major media outlets in Canada. I have started with the CBC. I would like to add some objective perspective to the "Allegations of Bias" section for the CBC page.

It has been challenging finding solid acceptable sources to allow for evidence-based discussion. I agree some media bias rating sites have very questionable methodology. Media Bias/Fact Check is judged an unacceptable source. AllSides seems more substantial and is not judged unacceptable but does not have a CBC entry.

There are a few surveys, in this case commissioned by the CBC itself and/or undertaken by well regarded external survey groups (such as Ipsos Reid and Abacus) looking into the biases and balance of Canadian media outlets. I would like to make brief summmary reference to them on the CBC page.

I propose an edit to add a summary statement along the lines of the below:

"Surveys have found a perception of centre-left/Liberal Party bias in the CBC among the Canadian public.    "

The statement is deliberately crafted not to say the CBC definitely has a particular bias, but that these sources at least indicate there is a public perception of a Liberal Party/centre-left bias.

I welcome any constructive feedback on the potential sources and edit. My intention is to have greater evidence-based discussion to be able to hold all media outlets to public account. Apologies on any vocabulary or formatting issues. I have only recently joined the editing effort.

Balancingakt (talk) 03:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a great project. Do be aware that there are sources that are not considered reliable. I don't know much about this, but and   may. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the redirect, Walter. FYI using the same sources, I am working to add similarly structured statements to the pages for the National Post, The Globe and Mail, CTV News, and Global News. I have located those statements in "Political stance" sections on each of their pages, as per the way the Globe's page was already structured. To clarify: I propose to add the statement to the "Allegations of Bias" in the "Controversy" section of the CBC's page, so as to not disrupt the framing and flow of what already exists.Balancingakt (talk) 17:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears no objections. Last call before I execute the edit?Balancingakt (talk) 02:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Great project, but the people who deleted your earlier edits have not discussed. You may want to ping them. I do not see consensus here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * last call on feedback or objections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balancingakt (talk • contribs) 21:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Silence is not consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Ownership of the CBC
Is the CBC owned by the Canadian Government, or as a crown corporation, is its ownership something different? Also, is it necessary to placate Canada's right wing political factions by making the outright claim of such ownership such as was done (and again two edits later after a revert)? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, the CBC is funded by the federal government. GoodDay (talk) 19:22, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Crown corporations are state owned enterprises. As CBC is a federally owned crown corporation, it is owned by the Government of Canada. My edit was not done in bad faith and was made with no political motivations. Michael60634 (talk) 19:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Funded by does not mean owned by. They are not state-owned. And by definition, and a bit of wikilawyering, they are owned by the crown with the government acting on its behalf.
 * I never claimed your edit was in bad faith (unlike you who called me a vandal in your revert and on mt talk page) but I do believe that it was done with political motivation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It is incorrect to say, as was done in the reverted edit, that the owner is the Government of Canada. Crown corporations are, unsurprisingly, owned by the Crown. There is no reason this article would delve into the nature of crown corporations or the broader constitutional structure of Canada.--Trystan (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The CBC is an agent of the Crown in right of Canada, which is an alternative name for the Government of Canada; it holds its property in the name of the Crown in right of Canada;  it cannot sell real estate over a certain value without the permission of the federal Cabinet;  it can borrow money from the federal government;  it needs permission from the federal Minister of Finance to borrow money from other sources;  the corporation is composed of the board of directors, all of whom are appointed by the federal Cabinet. Source:  Broadcasting Act, Part III:  Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 19:39, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The infobox already indicates that the organization is a crown corporation, so it would be redundant to identify the owner as the Crown in right of Canada, or to indicate that there is government oversight, as those things are inherent in the nature of a crown corporation. Capitalized, the term Government of Canada typically refers to the executive branch, so its use to describe what is more correctly described as the Crown is likely to be misleading to the reader.--Trystan (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

It is disingenuous to claim that an edit you disagree with is politically motivated. Michael60634 (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The news & the olympics are basically what's left, in terms of what CBC broadcasts, now. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * On TV, Murdoch Mysteries and much more. On radio, it is unsurpassed.
 * Also, re-reading what I wrote above, I can see how Michael60634 could assume I was suggesting that the editor was allied with a political viewpoint. I simply meant to write that this is the viewpoint of a certain political faction. I have no way of knowing the editor's political affiliation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:48, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I would strongly recommend linking to Crown corporations of Canada, and be done with it in this article. That's what wikilinks are meant to do.  PK T (alk)  20:29, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There is already a piped link to Crown corporations of Canada, at the top of the infobox under "Type".--Trystan (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

"Radio-Canada" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio-Canada&redirect=no Radio-Canada] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Liliana UwU  (talk / contributions) 23:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Canadian Broadcasting Corporation


text:
Talk:Samuel W. Smith

Untitled
looks copy vio but can't check from here

Seems to be from this government site: http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=S000613 Hadal 14:50, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Samuel W. Smith


text:
William Jackson Hooker

Sir William Jackson Hooker (6 July 1785 – 12 August 1865) was an English botanist and botanical illustrator, who became the first director of Kew when in 1841 it was recommended to be placed under state ownership as a botanic garden. At Kew he founded the Herbarium and enlarged the gardens and arboretum.

Hooker was born and educated in Norwich. An inheritance gave him the means to travel and to devote himself to the study of natural history, particularly botany. He published his account of an expedition to Iceland in 1809, even though his notes and specimens were destroyed during his voyage home. He married Maria, the eldest daughter of the Norfolk banker Dawson Turner, in 1815, afterwards living in Halesworth for 11 years, where he established a herbarium that became renowned by botanists at the time.

He held the post of Regius Professor of Botany at Glasgow University, where he worked with the botanist and lithographer Thomas Hopkirk and enjoyed the supportive friendship of Joseph Banks for his exploring, collecting and organising work. in 1841 he succeeded William Townsend Aiton as Director of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. He expanded the gardens at Kew, building new glasshouses, and establishing an arboretum and a museum of economic botany. Among his publications are The British Jungermanniae (1816), Flora Scotica (1821), and Species Filicum (1846–64).

He died in 1865 from complications due to a throat infection, and was buried at St Anne's Church, Kew. His son, Joseph Dalton Hooker, succeeded him as Director of Kew Gardens.

Family
Hooker's father Joseph Hooker was related to the Baring family and worked for them in Exeter and Norwich as a wool-stapler, trading in worsted and bombazine. He was an amateur botanist who collected succulent plants, and was, according to his grandson Sir Joseph Dalton Hooker, "mainly a self-educated man and a fair German scholar". Joseph Hooker was related to the sixteenth-century historian John Hooker, and the theologian Richard Hooker.

His mother, Lydia Vincent, the daughter of James Vincent, belonged to a family of Norwich worsted weavers and artists. Her cousin, William Jackson, was William Jackson Hooker's godfather. Upon his death in 1789 William Jackson bequeathed his estate in Seasalter, Kent, to his godson, who inherited it when he was 21. Lydia Vincent's nephew, George Vincent, was one of the most talented of the Norwich School of painters.

Early life and education
William Jackson Hooker was born on 6 July 1785 at 71–77 Magdalen Street, Norwich. A child named William Jacson [sic] Hooker was christened by his parents Joseph and Lydia Hooker at the nonconformist Tabernacle in Norwich on 9 November 1785. He attended the Norwich Grammar School from about 1792 until his late teens, but none of the school records from the period he was there have been kept, and little is known of his schooldays. He developed an interest in entomology, reading and natural history during his boyhood.

In 1805, Hooker discovered a moss (now known as Buxbaumia aphylla) when out walking on Rackheath, north of Norwich. He visited the Norwich botanist Sir James Edward Smith to consult his Linnean collections. Smith advised the young Hooker to contact the botanist Dawson Turner about his discovery.

Upon reaching the age of 21 he inherited an estate in Kent from his godfather. His independent means allowed him to travel and develop his interest in natural history.

As a young man Hooker was fascinated by the endemic birds of Norfolk and spent time studying them on the Broads and the Norfolk coast. He became skilled in drawing them and understanding their behaviour. He also studied insects and, when still at school, his skills were appreciated by the Reverend William Kirby. In 1805, Kirby dedicated the Omphalapion hookerorum, a species of weevil, to him and his brother Joseph: "I am indebted to an excellent naturalist, Mr. W. J. Hooker, of Norwich, who first discovered it, for this species. Many other nondescripts have been taken by him and his brother, Mr. J. Hooker, and I name this insect after them, as a memorial of my sense of their ability and exertions in the service of my favourite department of natural history."

In 1805 Hooker went to be trained in estate management at Starston Hall, Norfolk, perhaps because of the need to be able to manage his own newly acquired estates. He lived there with Robert Paul, a gentleman farmer. In 1806 he was introduced to Sir Joseph Banks, the president of the Royal Society. He elected to the Linnean Society of London that year.

Early friends and patrons
When a young man, Hooker gained the patronage and friendship of some of most important naturalists in eastern England, including Smith, who had founded the Linnean Society of London in 1788 and owned Carl Linnaeus's collection of plants and books, the botanist and antiquarian Dawson Turner, and Joseph Banks.

In 1807, Hooker was bitten by an adder when walking near Burgh Castle and badly hurt. He was found by friends and taken to Dawson Turner's house, where he was cared for until he recovered completely from the effects of the snake's bite. Once he had fully recovered, he accompanied Turner and his wife Mary on a tour of Scotland. In 1808, he again travelled to Scotland, this time accompanied by his friend William Borrer. During this journey he discovered a new species of moss, Andreaea nivalis, on Ben Nevis, which may have led to him publishing a paper Some Observations on the Genus Andreaea in 1810.

Hooker produced the illustrations for James Edward Smith's paper Characters of Hookeria, a new Genus of Mosses, with Descriptions of Ten Species, a genus named by Smith in honour of William and his older brother Joseph. Hooker had discovered a specimen of the moss in the countryside around Holt. From 1806 to 1809 he was a constant guest of Dawson Turner in Yarmouth, where he produced the illustrations for Turner's four-volume Historia Fucorum. He also spent time in London, where he took up rooms in Frith Street, near the British Museum.

By 1807, Hooker had begun work as a supervising manager at a brewery at Halesworth, in partnership with Dawson Turner and Samuel Paget. Sharing a quarter of the company, he lived in the brewery house, which had a large garden and a greenhouse in which he grew orchids. The brewing venture proved to be unsuccessful, for he had no capacity for business. He remained as the manager there for ten years, living at 15 Quay Street, Halesworth.

Excursions abroad
Hooker inherited enough money to be able to travel at his own expense. His first botanical expedition abroad—at the suggestion of the naturalist Sir Joseph Banks, who had made a previous visit in 1772—was to Iceland, in the summer of 1809. He sailed on the Margaret and Anne, arriving at Reykjavík in June. That month an attempt at Icelandic independence was staged by the Danish adventurer Jørgen Jørgensen.

During his return voyage, the Margaret and Anne, in a dead calm, was discovered to be on fire, the result of sabotage which was afterwards found to have been planned by Danish prisoners. Hooker and the ship's company were all rescued, but the fire destroyed most of his drawings and notes. Banks later offered Hooker the use of his own papers, and with these materials, along with the surviving parts of his own journal, his good memory aided him to publish an account of the island, its inhabitants and flora: his A Journal of a Tour in Iceland (1809) was privately circulated in 1811 and published two years later.

In 1810–11, he made extensive preparations, and sacrifices which proved financially serious, with a view to travelling to Ceylon, to accompany the newly-appointed governor, Sir Robert Brownrigg. He sold property inherited from his godfather, William Jackson, to raise the necessary capital for the journey. Political upheaval there led to the project being abandoned. In 1812 he was elected a fellow of the Royal Society of London.

In 1813, encouraged by Sir Joseph Banks, he considered travelling to Java, but was dissuaded from the idea by friends and family.

In 1814, he travelled in Europe for nine months, going to Paris with the Turners, then travelling alone to Switzerland, southern France, and Italy, where he studied plants and visited notable botanists. The following year he married the eldest daughter of his friend Dawson Turner. Settling at Halesworth, he devoted himself to the formation of his herbarium, which became of worldwide renown among botanists. In 1815, he was made a corresponding member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

Career in Glasgow
In February 1820, Hooker was appointed as the regius professor of botany in the University of Glasgow, taking over from the Scottish physician and botanist Robert Graham, and inheriting a small botanic garden that was underfunded and lacking in plants. In May he was received by the University and read his inaugural thesis in Latin, written by his father-in-law, Dawson Turner. Hooker was faced with the prospect of delivering lectures to students, when he had never previously taught, and was ignorant of some aspects of botany: his position within the medical faculty inspired him to study for a medical degree.

He soon became popular as a lecturer, his style being both clear and eloquent, and people such as local army officers came to attend them. For 15 years he delivered a summer course on botany, required to be studied by all medical students—for the remaining months of the year he was free to study, work on his publications and his herbarium, and correspond with other botanists.

His classroom was remarkable for having drawings of plants on display to assist the students, and their course included trips to study plants, organised by Hooker. Student numbers increased from 30 in 1820 to 130 ten years later. He earned £144 in his first year, which later increased, but still needed to supplement his income by tutoring two boys from wealthy families, who lived with the family.

His years at Glasgow were his most productive, when he was known as the most active botanist in the country. In 1821 he brought out the Flora Scotica, written to be used by his botany students. He was awarded a doctorate by Glasgow University in 1821. He worked with the lithographer and botanist Thomas Hopkirk to establish the Royal Botanic Institution of Glasgow and to lay out and develop the Botanic Gardens. He was elected a Foreign Honorary Member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1823.

Under Hooker, the Botanic Gardens enjoyed remarkable success and became prominent in the botanic world. The garden was his responsibility and he set to work developing it with the help of his extensive network of friends and acquaintances. Principal among these was Sir Joseph Banks, who promised Kew's help. The botanic gardens steadily acquired new plants, often from visiting naturalists, or from students who had travelled. His work on the botanic garden resulted in experts expressing the view that "Glasgow would not suffer by comparison with any other establishment in Europe".

During his professorship at Glasgow, his numerous published works included Flora Londinensis, British Flora, Flora Boreali-Americana, Icones Filicum, The Botany of Captain Beechey's Voyage to the Bering Sea, Icones Plantarum, Exotic Flora (1823–27), 13 volumes of Curtis's Botanical Magazine (from 1827), and the first seven volumes of Annals of Botany. Mount Hooker, between Alberta and British Columbia, was named for him in 1827 by David Douglas.

In 1836, Hooker was made a Knight of the Royal Guelphic Order and a Knight Bachelor in recognition of his work at Glasgow and his services to botany. Although officially recognised in this way, he became increasingly disillusioned with how his work was viewed by the University authorities, and by 1839 was feeling as if the "dignity of the position was stripped to one of ridicule and his work was dismissed as of no account".

During his time in Glasgow, he lived, for several summers, at Invereck at the head of the Holy Loch. "He seems to have devoted special attention to the vegetation of the neighbourhood," wrote John Colegate in 1868. "The result of his inquiries were published in the Rev. Dr. McKay's Statistical Account of the United Parishes of Dunoon and Kilmun."

Director of Kew Gardens
The origins of the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew can be traced to the merging of the royal estates of Richmond and Kew in 1772, when the garden at Kew Park formed by Henry, Lord Capell of Tewkesbury was enlarged by Augusta, Dowager Princess of Wales. The gardens were developed by the architect William Chambers, who built the pagoda in 1761, and by George III, who was aided by William Aiton and Sir Joseph Banks. The Dutch House, now known as Kew Palace, was purchased by George III in 1781 for his children. The adjoining White House was demolished in 1802. The plant collections at Kew were first enlarged systematically by Francis Masson in 1771, but had since the death of George III slowly declined. In 1838, a Parliamentary review of the nation's royal gardens recommended the development of Kew as a national botanical garden.

In April 1841 he was appointed as the Garden's first full time Director, on the resignation of William Townsend Aiton. Following his appointment as director, a position he had long wished for, he wrote "I feel as if I were to begin life over again", in a letter to Dawson Turner. He started on an annual salary of £300, with an additional allowance of £200. To Allan, who described Hooker as a man with "drive, enthusiasm and creative ability", he was eminently suited for the post, being a professional botanist, an artist, a leader with connections to others in the botanical world, who was knowledgeable about plants from Britain and those collected from around the world. The curator of Kew Gardens during Hooker's period as Director was the experienced and knowledgeable botanist John Smith (1798–1888).

Under Hooker's direction the gardens expanded considerably in size. Initially about 11 acre in size, they were extended to 15 acre in 1841. An arboretum of 270 acre was introduced, many new glass-houses were erected, and a museum of economic botany was established. In 1843 the Palm House, to a design by the architect Decimus Burton and the iron founder Richard Turner, was constructed at Kew. The gardens and glasshouses were opened daily to the visiting public, who were allowed to wander freely there for the first time. Sir William himself wandered around during opening hours, lending his advice.

He was elected as a member of the American Philosophical Society in 1862.

Hooker lived with his family at West Park, a large house in which he accommodated 13 rooms of books in his library, which was seen as a public institution by the world's botanical experts, who were never turned away. Among his visitors were Queen Victoria, her husband Prince Albert and their children; during 1865—the year Hooker died—the attendance had risen to 529,241. Under Hooker's direction Kew became the centre of an emerging interconnected worldwide network of botanical expertise, and staff recommended by him joined expeditions or worked for botanical gardens around the world. He was invariably consulted when government questions arose about botanical matters. Newly propagated plants and sent from Kew to private and public gardens in Britain, and to botanical gardens overseas, in some cases to be developed as crops.

Marriage and family
In June 1815, he married Maria Sarah Turner, the eldest daughter of Dawson Turner and Mary Palgrave. Maria was an amateur artist who collected mosses, and who with her sister Elizabeth illustrated them for her husband. The couple toured the Lake District and across Ireland on their honeymoon, before travelling to Scotland.

They had five children. William Dawson Hooker (born 1816) was a naturalist who trained as a doctor. He published Notes on Norway (1837 and 1839). He emigrated with his new wife to Jamaica to practise medicine, but died at Kingston, aged 24. Joseph Dalton Hooker (born 1817) became a botanist and was appointed the first assistant director at Kew. He served in this post for 10 years, before taking over as director from his father in 1865. The three daughters in the family were Maria (born 1819), Elizabeth (born 1820), and Mary Harriet (born 1825), who died aged sixteen.

Death
He was engaged on the Synopsis filicum with the botanist John Gilbert Baker when he contracted a throat infection then epidemic at Kew.

Works
Hooker studied mosses, liverworts, and ferns, and published a monograph on a group of liverworts, British Jungermanniae, in 1816. This was succeeded by a new edition of William Curtis's Flora Londinensis, for which he wrote the descriptions (1817–1828); by a description of the Plantae cryptogamicae of Alexander von Humboldt and Aimé Bonpland; by the Muscologia, a very complete account of the mosses of Britain and Ireland, prepared in conjunction with Thomas Taylor and first published in 1818; and by his Musci exotici (2 volumes, 1818–1820), devoted to new foreign mosses and other cryptogamic plants.

Hooker published more than 20 major botanical works over a period of 50 years, including British Jungermanniae (1816), Musci Exotici (1818–1820), Icones Filicum (1829–1831), Genera Filicum (1838) and Species Filicum (1846–1864). Other works include Flora Scotica (1821), The British Flora (1830) and Flora Borealis Americana; or, The Botany of the Northern Parts of British America (1840).

Plants named after William Jackson Hooker
A number plants have the Latin specific epithet of hookeri which refers to Hooker. Including;
 * Allium hookeri
 * Alsophila hookeri
 * Anthurium hookeri
 * Arctostaphylos hookeri
 * Dasypogon hookeri
 * Drosera hookeri
 * Epiphyllum hookeri
 * Iris hookeri
 * Kopsiopsis hookeri
 * Lithops hookeri
 * Lysiphyllum hookeri
 * Ozothamnus hookeri
 * Notholaena hookeri
 * Pachyphytum hookeri
 * Prosartes hookeri
 * Pseudarthria hookeri
 * Townsendia hookeri

title: William Jackson Hooker