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Take That

Take That are an English pop group formed in Manchester in 1990. The group currently consists of Gary Barlow, Howard Donald and Mark Owen. The original line-up also featured Jason Orange and Robbie Williams. Barlow is the group's lead singer and primary songwriter, with Owen and Williams initially providing backing vocals, and Donald and Orange serving primarily as dancers.

The group have had 28 top-40 singles, 20 top-10 and 17 top-5 singles on the UK Singles Chart, 12 of which have reached number one. They have also had nine number-one albums on the UK Albums Chart. Internationally, the band have had 56 number-one singles and 42 number-one albums. They have received eight Brit Awards, including Best British Group and Best British Live Act. In 2012 they received an Ivor Novello Award for Outstanding Contribution to British Music. According to the British Phonographic Industry (BPI), Take That has been certified for sales of 14.4 million albums and 13.6 million singles in the UK.

Williams left the band in 1995, while the four remaining members completed their world tour and released a final single before splitting up in 1996. After filming a 2005 Take That: For the Record about the group and releasing a new greatest hits album, a four-piece Take That without Williams officially announced a 2006 reunion tour around the UK, entitled The Ultimate Tour. On 9 May 2006, it was announced that the group were set to record new material together once again. Their fourth studio album, Beautiful World, was released in 2006 and was followed up with The Circus, in 2008. The group achieved new success as a four-piece, scoring a string of chart hits across the UK and Europe while selling over 45 million records worldwide. Williams rejoined Take That in 2010 for the band's sixth studio album, Progress. Released on 15 November of that year, it was the first album of new material to feature Take That's original line-up since their 1995 album, Nobody Else. It became the fastest-selling album of the 21st century and the second fastest-selling album in British history.

In 2014, the band recorded a seventh studio album, this time as a trio without Williams and Orange. The album, titled III, was released in November 2014 and became the band's seventh number one. It was preceded by the single "These Days", which became the band's 12th number one single in the UK. In 2011, Take That set the new record for the fastest-selling tour of all time in the UK with Progress Live, beating the previous record set by their Circus Live Tour in 2009. At the 2011 Brit Awards they won Best British Group. In 2012, Forbes named them the fifth highest-earning music stars in the world. The group performed at the London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremony, playing "Rule the World" while the Olympic Flame was extinguished. In the same year, the Official Charts Company revealed the biggest-selling singles artists in British music chart history with Take That placed 15th overall, making them the most successful boy band in UK chart history. Four of their albums are listed in the best-selling albums of the millennium, with three of them among the 60 best-selling albums in UK chart history.

1989–1990: Formation
In 1989, Manchester-based Nigel Martin-Smith sought to create a British male vocal singing group modelled on New Kids on the Block. Martin-Smith's vision, however, was to create a teen-oriented group that could appeal to multiple demographic segments within the music industry. Martin-Smith was then introduced to young singer-songwriter Gary Barlow, who had been performing in clubs since the age of 15. Impressed with Barlow's catalogue of self-written material, Martin-Smith decided to build his new-look boy band around Barlow's musical abilities. A campaign to audition young men with abilities in dancing and singing followed and took place in Manchester and other surrounding cities in 1990. At 22, Howard Donald was one of the oldest to audition, but was chosen after he got time off work as a vehicle painter to continue the process. A budding DJ, he and Barlow had a shared interest in electronic acts such as Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark (OMD) and Gary Numan. Prior to auditioning, Jason Orange had appeared as a breakdancer on the popular television programme The Hit Man and Her. Martin-Smith also selected 18-year-old bank employee Mark Owen and finally 16-year-old Robbie Williams to round out the group, which initially went by the name Kick It.

1990–1992: Take That & Party
Take That's first TV appearance was on The Hit Man and Her in 1990, where they performed Barlow's self-written, unreleased song, "My Kind of Girl". They later appeared a second time to perform "Waiting Around", which would become the B-side for the first single, "Do What U Like". "Promises" and "Once You've Tasted Love" were also released as singles but were minor hits in the UK. Take That initially worked the same territory as their American counterparts, singing new jack R&B, urban soul, and mainstream pop. However, they worked their way toward Hi-NRG dance music, while also pursuing an adult contemporary ballad direction. As they aimed to break into the mainstream music industry, they worked a number of small clubs, schools, and events across the country building up a fanbase as they travelled to gigs constantly for months.

Take That's breakthrough single was a cover of the 1975 Tavares hit "It Only Takes a Minute", which peaked at number seven on the UK Singles Chart in June 1992. This success was followed by "I Found Heaven", then by the first Barlow ballad "A Million Love Songs", which also reached number seven in October. Their cover of the Barry Manilow hit "Could It Be Magic" gave them their first big success, peaking at number three in the UK in the first chart of 1993. Their first album, Take That & Party, was released in 1992, and included all the hit singles to date.

1993–1995: Everything Changes, Nobody Else and superstardom
1993 saw the release of Everything Changes, based on Barlow's original material. It peaked at number one in the UK and spawned six singles, with four being consecutive UK number one singles – their first number one "Pray", "Relight My Fire", "Babe" and the title track "Everything Changes". The lead single "Why Can't I Wake Up with You" had narrowly missed the top spot in the UK peaking at number two and the sixth and final single "Love Ain't Here Anymore" taken from the album reached number three on the UK charts. Everything Changes saw the band gain international success with the album being nominated for the 1994 Mercury Prize, but it failed to crack the U.S. market, where a U.S.-exclusive remix of "Love Ain't Here Anymore" gained little success.

By 1994, Take That had become radio and television stars across Europe and Asia, but it was not until 1995 that they did their first World Tour. It was during the years 1993–95 that the band fronted scores of magazine covers ranging from Smash Hits to GQ, becoming mass merchandised on all sorts of paraphernalia ranging from picture books, to posters, stickers, their own dolls, jewellery, caps, T-shirts, toothbrushes and even had their own annuals released. The band had also developed a large female teenage fanbase at the time. During this time, they performed at numerous music awards shows and chart shows such as the BRIT Awards and Top of the Pops, also winning the Best Live Act award in 1995 at the MTV Europe Music Awards, having been renowned for their breakdance routines, high energy and creative tour productions.

In 1995, Take That released their third studio album Nobody Else, again based on Barlow's own material which reached number 1 in the UK and across Europe, capturing new audiences along the way, with Take That also able to make inroads in the adult audience in Britain through Barlow's melodic, sensitive ballads. For nearly five years, Take That's popularity was unsurpassed in Britain. The release of the first single from the album, "Sure", achieved yet another number one in the UK charts. It was not until their second release from that album, however, that they would experience what would become their biggest hit single, "Back for Good", which reached number one in many countries including the UK, Germany, Australia, and Norway. It was also their only hit in the USA, where it reached number seven.

The song was initially unveiled for the first time via live performance while at the 1995 BRIT Awards, and based on the reception of that performance, the record pre-sold more records than expected and forced the record label to bring the release date forward by an unprecedented six weeks. The album was also noted for its cover, which was a parody of the famed cover of The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band cover sleeve.

1995–1996: Break-up and Greatest Hits
Robbie Williams's drug abuse had escalated to a near drug overdose the night before the group was scheduled to perform at the MTV Europe Music Awards in 1994.

In June 1995, Williams was photographed by the press partying with Oasis at the Glastonbury Festival. The following month, the band offered him an ultimatum; he was to adhere to the band's responsibilities or leave before their scheduled world tour. Williams chose the latter. Williams claimed he was bored with Barlow's leadership and jealous of Barlow. Despite the loss of Williams, Take That continued to promote Nobody Else as a four-piece, scoring a further hit single with "Never Forget" with Donald on lead vocals. They subsequently went to America and completed the Nobody Else Tour in October 1995. Following the tour, the band began to plan for their next album; however, when they spent Christmas together, they mutually agreed it was time to part ways.

On 13 February 1996, Take That formally announced that they were disbanding. This was followed by the Greatest Hits compilation in 1996, which contained a new recording, a cover of the Bee Gees' "How Deep Is Your Love". The single went on to become what was to be the band's final UK number one until their 2006 comeback a decade later. Take That gave what was thought to be their final performance in April 1996 at Amsterdam. Following the band's announcement, millions of their fans were distraught around the world and in the UK alone, teenage girls threatened suicide and were seen lining streets in tears, to the point that telephone hotlines were set up by the government to deal with counselling them. After the band broke up, highly respected music figures such as Elton John noted that Take That were different from other boy bands before and after them, in that they wrote their own material through Gary Barlow. Barlow is one of only a small number of people who have won an Ivor Novello award during their time in a boy band, with George Michael whilst in Wham! and Tony Mortimer whilst in East 17 being two others who have achieved this feat. Take That had also left a legacy of being immaculate performers with a very high work ethic, causing them to be voted in as the greatest boy band of all time.

2005–2006: Reunion as a quartet and Never Forget – The Ultimate Collection
On 14 November 2005, Never Forget – The Ultimate Collection, a new compilation of their hit singles including a new previously unreleased song, also achieved great success and peaked at number 2 on UK charts, selling over 2.4 million copies in the UK alone. The new song "Today I've Lost You" (recorded in September 2005) was originally written by Barlow as the follow-up to "Back for Good" but was never recorded. On 16 November 2005, the group got back together for the ITV1 documentary Take That: For the Record, in which they aired their views over their fame, success, the split and what the post-Williams line-up had done since.

On 25 November 2005, there was an official press conference by the band announcing that the post-Robbie Williams line-up was going to tour in 2006. The tour, entitled The Ultimate Tour, ran from April to June 2006. The tour featured a guest appearance by British soul singer Beverley Knight, who replaced Lulu's vocals on the song "Relight My Fire"; although Lulu did appear during the stadium shows on "Relight My Fire" and "Never Forget". The Pussycat Dolls supported the group at their Dublin concert, and the Sugababes supported the group on the final five dates of the stadium leg. In a seven-year study analysing over one billion online searches via Google conducted by AccuraCast, a leading digital search agency, their comeback was ranked at number one in the UK.

2006–2007: Beautiful World
On 9 May 2006, Take That returned to the recorded music scene after more than ten years of absence, signing with Polydor Records. The band's comeback album, Beautiful World, entered the UK Albums Chart at no. 1 and, as of June 2009, had sold over 2.8 million copies in the UK. It is the 35th best selling album in UK music history.

On Beautiful World, all four members of the band had the opportunity to sing lead vocals and contribute in the songwriting. Unlike the band's earlier works, where the majority of their material was written by Barlow who received sole credit, all four band members are credited as co-writers, along with John Shanks. The comeback single, "Patience", was released on 20 November 2006, with a special event launching it on 5 November. On 26 November "Patience" hit number 1 in the UK in its second week of chart entry, making it the group's ninth No. 1, and staying there for 4 weeks. Take That also accompanied eventual winner Leona Lewis on a live version of "A Million Love Songs" during the final of The X Factor on 16 December 2006.

The week after Beautiful World was released, it was announced that Take That had become the first artists ever to top the UK official single and album charts along with the download single, download album and DVD charts in the same week, as well as topping the radio charts.

The video for the number 1 hit single "Shine", the follow-up to "Patience", premiered on 25 January 2007 on Channel 4, ahead of its release on 26 February 2007. The band's success continued on 14 February 2007 when Take That performed live at the BRIT Awards ceremony at Earl's Court. Their single "Patience" won the Best British Single category. The third single chosen from Beautiful World was "I'd Wait For Life", released on 18 June 2007 in the UK. The single reached 17 in the UK Singles Chart. This may have been due to lack of promotion, as the band decided to take a pre-tour break rather than do any promotion for the single. The single "Rule the World", included on the deluxe version of Beautiful World, was recorded for the soundtrack of the film Stardust (2007). It reached number two in the UK and went on to become the group's second best selling single, shifting over 1.2 million units in the UK. Beautiful World was the fourth biggest-selling album of 2007. It was announced at the start of 2007 that Take That signed a record deal with American label Interscope, and would also release their album in Canada. Starting on 11 October 2007, Take That began their Beautiful World Tour 2007 in Belfast. The tour included 49 shows throughout Europe and the UK and ended in Manchester on 23 December 2007. The band received four nominations at the 2008 BRIT Awards. Nominated for Best British Group, Best British Single ("Shine"), Best British Album (Beautiful World) and Best Live Act, they took home the Best Live Act and the Best British Single awards. According to a 2007 MSN UK internet poll, Take That were voted as the "comeback kings" of the year.

2008–2009: The Circus
"Greatest Day", the first single from the album The Circus, made its radio premiere on 13 October 2008 and it was released on 24 November. It debuted at number 1 on the UK Singles Chart on 30 November 2008. An album launch party for The Circus was held in Paris on 2 December. On its first day of release The Circus sold 133,000 copies, and after four days on sale it sold 306,000 copies (going platinum) making The Circus the fastest selling album of the year. The album reached number 1 on the UK Albums Chart on 7 December 2008 with total first-week sales of 432,490, the third highest opening sales week in UK history.

On 28 October 2008, on the Radio 1 Chris Moyles show, it was announced that Take That would be touring again in June/July 2009, covering the UK and Ireland. Tickets for the Take That Present: The Circus Live tour went on sale on 31 October. The promoters, SJM, have said that the band's tour is "the fastest selling in UK history".

On 22 May 2008, Barlow and Donald attended the 2008 Ivor Novello Awards where Take That won the award for Most Performed Work with their single "Shine". Take That won the Sony Ericsson Tour of the Year award at the Vodafone music awards on 18 September 2008. They were unable to attend as they were in LA finishing off The Circus. They did send a video link message, which was shown at the awards. On 22 November 2008, Take That appeared on week 7 of the talent show The X Factor where the finalists performed some of their greatest hits and Owen and Barlow made a guest appearance to personally coach the contestants. The band also performed on Children in Need 2008, singing their new single, "Greatest Day", before donating £250,000 to the charity from their Marks and Spencer fee. The band were also voted the Greatest Boy Band of All Time, reflecting their ongoing marketability and success in the pop arena, even after two decades.

At the 2009 Brit Awards they were nominated for Best British Group and they performed "Greatest Day" at the ceremony. "Up All Night", the second single from The Circus, was released on 2 March 2009, and peaked at number 14 on the UK Singles Chart, despite heavy airplay. In Germany and Australia, The Garden was released as the second single instead. On 7 May 2009, Take That's official website confirmed that the third single from The Circus would be "Said It All" which was released on 15 June 2009, peaking at number 9 on the UK Singles chart. The video premiered on GMTV on 8 May 2009. It features all four band members dressed up as vintage circus clowns, which tied in with their forthcoming Take That Present: The Circus Live tour. Take That started their Circus Live tour at the Stadium of Light on 5 June 2009 in Sunderland and ended at the Wembley Stadium in London on 5 July 2009, which over 80,000 people attended. This tour quickly became the fastest-selling of all time, breaking all records by selling all of their 650,000 tickets in less than four and a half hours.

In November 2009 Take That released the official DVD of their Circus tour, which became the fastest-selling music DVD of all time in the UK on its first day of release and stayed in the top 10 of the videos chart for over a year. This overtook the previous record sales holder, which was Take That's Beautiful World Live tour and stayed at the number 1 spot for 8 weeks. The following week Take That released their first live album, The Greatest Day – Take That Present: The Circus Live, which sold 98,000 copies on its first day of release and was certified Platinum in July 2013. "Hold up a Light" was released as the fifth and final single from The Circus to radio stations and as a digital download to promote the release of the live album. The live album also featured a stripped down session recorded live at the famous Abbey Road Studios in London. It featured the members singing the setlist from the preceding tour, albeit in a studio setting.

2010–2011: Williams' return and Progress
On 7 June 2010, the news broke of a single called "Shame", which had been written by Barlow and Williams and would feature the vocals of both artists. This was the first time the pair had worked together since 1995 and would appear on the second greatest hits collection of Williams. "Heart and I", another track from the same album, was also co-written by Williams and Barlow. The single "Shame" peaked at number 2 on the UK Singles Chart while also achieving success throughout Europe, charting in over 19 countries.

After working with the band on new material in Los Angeles, on 15 July 2010 Robbie Williams announced he was returning to Take That. After months of working together, assembling new songs for a new album and even debating a band-name change to "The English", a joint statement between Williams and the group read, "The rumours are true ... Take That: the original lineup, have written and recorded a new album for release later this year." The statement went on to say, "Following months of speculation Gary Barlow, Howard Donald, Jason Orange, Mark Owen, and Robbie Williams confirmed they have been recording a new studio album as a five-piece, which they will release in November." The lead single from Take That's album Progress was announced as "The Flood" and was released 7 November as a digital download, and on 8 November as a physical copy, with the album released a week later on 15 November. The single peaked at number 2 in the UK Singles Charts and to date has sold over 500,000 copies in the UK alone. The single also achieved success across Europe, charting inside the top 10 in ten countries while also charting in another nine countries whilst also being nominated for an Ivor Novello Award for best work.

On 26 October the band announced that they would be embarking on a huge UK stadium tour entitled Progress Live, starting in Sunderland on 27 May, and finishing with a record-breaking 8 nights at London's Wembley Stadium in July 2011. It was also announced that Williams would perform hit singles from his solo career during the tour. The band then played at some of the biggest venues across Europe for the second leg of the tour. The phenomenal demand for tickets across the country led to the web sites of all the major UK ticket suppliers either crashing or considerably slowing for hours on end. The demand and sheer volume of fans also created problems for the UK telephone network. Take That's Progress Live also broke all records for ticket sales selling over 1.1 million tickets in one day, smashing the previous box office record set by Take That's Circus tour in 2008.

On the first day of release Progress became the fastest selling album of the century, with 235,000 copies sold in just one day. The album reached number 1 in the UK, selling around 520,000 copies in its first week, becoming the second fastest-selling album in history. After the release of Progress it was announced that Take That have become Amazon UK's top-selling music artist of all time. The album retained the number one spot for six consecutive weeks in the UK since its release, selling 2.8 million copies in the UK alone and becoming the best selling album of 2010 Progress also achieved success across Europe where it debuted at number one in Ireland, Greece, Germany and Denmark. and the European Top 100 Albums chart. It also debuted inside the top 10 of the charts in Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland.

"Kidz" was announced as the second single from Progress, it was released 21 February 2011 and charted well across Europe. The band performed the song live at the 2011 Brit Awards hosted at The O2 Arena, where they won a Brit for Best British Group and were nominated for Best British Album. Their performance of "Kidz", praised by critics, involved a highly choreographed routine featuring dancers dressed in police-styled riot gear bearing the Take That symbol on the uniform and shields. On 19 May 2011, Take That announced a new EP entitled Progressed, which contained eight tracks written by the band since they had reunited as a five-piece. It was packaged alongside the album Progress and returned the band to number 1 in the UK Album Chart the week after it was released on 13 June 2011.

Take That announced that the Progress Live tour would be released worldwide as their second live album to date and would also be released on home media formats across the UK and Europe on 21 November 2011. The DVD debuted at number 1 on the UK Music Video top 40 in its first week on release and sold over 200,000 copies in two weeks of release in the UK alone. Take That's efforts were recognised further when they were awarded Virgin Media's Best Live Act of 2012.

On 4 October, it was reported that Take That were to take a break after the completion of the Progress tour, with Barlow continuing his role as a judge on The X Factor and Williams recording new solo material. Take That were presented with an Ivor Novello Award for their Outstanding Contribution to British Music in May 2012.

In August 2012, Take That performed at the closing ceremony of the 2012 Summer Olympics, despite Barlow announcing that his daughter had been stillborn the previous week. The performance earned him praise for appearing live so soon after the tragedy. Williams was due to perform with the band but dropped out due to his wife giving birth at around the same time and thus the group performed as a four-piece. In November 2012, Take That reunited as a five-piece for the last time to perform "Never Forget" at the Music Industry Trust Awards. In 2013, Donald became a judge on the German version of the television dancing show Got to Dance.

2014–2015: Line-up change and III
In May 2013, Owen announced that Take That was to begin recording their seventh studio album in 2014, and on 14 January 2014, Donald and Barlow both tweeted that Take That had entered the studio to begin recording the album, although it was not initially clear if Williams was present at these recording sessions. On 28 April 2014, Williams announced on Twitter he was to become a father for a second time, and consequently suggested he would be unable to join Take That on their album and tour. Although welcome to return to the band at any time, Williams chose not to return for group's seventh and eighth studio albums and their accompanying tours, focusing instead on his solo commitments. He continued to write music with his colleagues and has performed with the group on several occasions since 2011's Progress tour and plans on returning at some point in the future.

On 24 September 2014, it was announced that Jason Orange had left the band. He said: 'At a band meeting last week I confirmed to Mark, Gary and Howard that I do not wish to commit to recording and promoting a new album. 'At the end of The Progress Tour I began to question whether it might be the right time for me to not continue on with Take That,' he continued. 'There have been no fallings out, only a decision on my part that I no longer wish to do this,' he added. Barlow, Donald, and Owen issued a joint statement about Orange's decision which said: "This is a sad day for us. Jason leaving is a huge loss both professionally and even more so personally ... Jason's energy and belief in what this band could achieve has made it what it is today, and we'll forever be grateful for his enthusiasm, dedication and inspiration over the years." A day after the announcement, Robbie Williams took to Twitter to show support of Orange's decision. "Mr Orange. Until we ride again. Much love, Bro.", Williams tweeted.

On 10 October 2014, Take That unveiled their first song as a three-piece and lead single from their upcoming album. Titled "These Days", it was released on 23 November 2014 and went to No. 1 in the UK Singles Chart, knocking Band Aid 30 off the top spot and becoming their 12th number one single. The album itself, called III, was released on 28 November 2014 and became the band's seventh No. 1 album. It was then followed by a sell-out arena tour entitled Take That Live. On 14 October 2015, the band announced their new single "Hey Boy", released on 16 October, which is the first single from the 2015 re-release of III. The 2015 edition of the album was released on 20 November.

In December 2015, British media buzzed about the group embarking on a stint in Las Vegas, starting 2017. Reports indicated the group impressed U.S. promoters and would headline their own residency show. Many venues circulated, including The AXIS at the Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino, The Foundry at SLS Las Vegas and the Linq Theater at The LINQ Hotel & Casino. Local newspaper, the Las Vegas Sun writes that everything is still unconfirmed, despite Barlow confirming the rumour on Twitter.

2016–2017: Wonderland
On 2 February 2016, in an interview with The Sun, Barlow revealed that Take That would release their eighth studio album later in the year. On 4 May 2016, English drum and bass duo Sigma announced their newest single would feature Take That. "Cry" received its first radio play on 20 May 2016 and was released on that date. On 21 October 2016, the band posted a teaser on their social media pages and website depicting the logo of the band flickering with the hashtag "#WONDERLAND". The following day, it was announced that their new album, titled Wonderland, was scheduled to be released on 24 March 2017. It was then followed by a UK and Ireland arena tour entitled Wonderland Live, that commenced on 5 May 2017 at the Genting Arena in Birmingham. On 17 February 2017, the lead single of Wonderland was released. Titled "Giants", it debuted at 13 in the UK charts, which became the band's 24th UK top 20 single.

On 8 April 2017, ITV aired a specially commissioned hour-length television special titled An Evening with Take That, where the band performed some songs from the album, along with some old classics including "Never Forget", "Back for Good" and "Rule the World". The band also took part in a Q&A session with the audience members. On 27 April, it was announced on Twitter that "New Day" would be released as the next single from the album Wonderland. The band were seen recording the music video in a field in Luton the days leading up the opening night of the Wonderland Live tour. Due to the Manchester Arena bombing just days before they were due to perform at the venue, their Manchester and Liverpool dates were rescheduled or relocated. The band returned a month later to perform at the One Love Manchester benefit concert.

On 16 September 2017, Barlow, Owen and Donald were set to perform a special one-off show in Jersey after a fan bid more than £1.2 million to win a performance from the band. This then turned in to a ticketed charity event where the money from tickets sold would go towards benefiting Children in Need. The auction was held on BBC Radio 2. On 11 November 2017, Take That began their foreign tour in Perth, Australia, the first time they have performed in the country in over twenty years. They also played in New Zealand, United Arab Emirates and Israel for the first time. Unlike the other tours, a DVD for Wonderland Live was not released. Instead, it was broadcast on Sky 1 on 23 December and in cinemas.

2018–2020: 30th Anniversary and Odyssey
On 16 July 2018, while performing at first ever Hits Radio Live at the Manchester Arena, Barlow, Donald and Owen confirmed that they would be touring in 2019. The tour was a Greatest Hits tour and celebrated the 30th anniversary of the band. There was also a Greatest Hits album, Odyssey, which was released on 23 November 2018. The Greatest Hits album features existing songs from their back catalogue that have been re-imagined and 3 brand new songs. It also includes collaborations with Boyz II Men, Lulu, Sigma and Barry Gibb. Odyssey reached number one in the UK album chart and was certified as a platinum selling record. The following year, Odyssey Live, the recording of their tour, reached number 5, becoming the band's 13th top 5 album, with the DVD becoming the biggest live music sale of 2019.

In May 2020, Barlow, Donald, and Owen reunited with Williams for a virtual performance from their respective homes, hosted by price comparison website comparethemarket.com, to raise money for the music charity Nordoff Robbins and Crew Nation.

2022–present: This Life
In June 2022, Barlow confirmed that the band had begun working on their ninth studio album due for a late 2023 release. The album was also confirmed by Owen earlier in May. In October 2022, it was announced that Take That would perform at BST Hyde Park on 1 July 2023, supported by The Script and the Sugababes.

On 5 May 2023, the band released a rework of Greatest Day which featured Calum Scott and German artist Robin Schulz. Two days later, the band performed at King Charles III's Coronation Concert, held at Windsor Castle. On 15 June 2023, the band performed in Leicester Square for the premiere of the Take That movie musical Greatest Days which was released in cinemas the following day. The film was later released on home streaming service Amazon Prime Video.

On 20 September 2023, the band announced that their new single "Windows" would be released on 22 September. That evening, the band teased upcoming live shows with their logo projected on arenas and stadiums around the UK & Ireland, including London's O2 Arena, Bristol Ashton Gate Stadium and Manchester's new arena Co-Op Live. On the release day of "Windows", it was announced that their ninth album, titled This Life, would be released on 24 November 2023. This Life on Tour was also announced, starting on 13 April 2024 at Sheffield Utilita Arena. To celebrate the launch on the new album, a 6 episode podcast featuring the band was announced with a new episode each week counting down the release of the album. On 17 October, the band released the second single "Brand New Sun". On 3 November, the band released the third single "This Life". Just three days after the release of This Life, the album claimed the biggest first-week sales for a British Act in 2023 exceeding sales for albums by Lewis Capaldi, Ed Sheeran and The Rolling Stones.

On 10th December 2023, the band headlined the second day of Capital FM's Jingle Bell Ball at London's O2 Arena which included a special performance of Relight my Fire with Rita Ora. In January 2024, it was announced the band will perform the first ever concert as part of the opening day of the 2023-24 SailGP championship in Abu Dhabi on 13 January 2024.

On 25 March, the band announced that their new single "You and Me" would be released on 28 March, in order to promote the This Life on Tour shows. Following this on 26 April, the band would release another single, "All Wrapped Up", along with an announcement of a deluxe edition of the This Life album, which would contain the former two tracks, along with three other studio tracks.

On 5 April, the band announced 'The Greatest Weekend', a new festival spanning across four days in Malta. The event will run from 17 to 20 October 2024 and is set to feature the band performing the album Everything Changes live in its entirety for the first time since its release in 1993, and their greatest hits. The event will also feature nightclub events, pool parties, and special guests including the Sugababes, Sam Ryder, Ella Henderson, Daniel Bedingfield, Heather Small, Gok Wan and a DJ set from band member Howard Donald.

In other media and charity
In April 2006, EMI licensed the band's songs to be used in the musical Never Forget, a musical based on songs of the band from the 1990s. Take That posted and then later removed a statement on their website distancing themselves from it.

Take That wrote and recorded the theme song "Rule the World" for the film Stardust directed by Matthew Vaughn, which was released in cinemas across the globe in October 2007. In 2007, their song "Back for Good" was used as part of the soundtrack for popular Korean drama Coffee Prince.

Take That presented their own TV show Take That Come to Town, a variety show in which they performed some of their biggest hits. The show also featured comedy sketches with one of Peter Kay's alter egos Geraldine McQueen. It aired on 7 December 2008 on ITV1. Sony launched their first Take That video game, SingStar Take That in 2009 for the PlayStation 3.

In November 2010, ITV aired Take That: Look Back, Don't Stare, a black-and-white documentary which focused on the band working together for the first time in 15 years. Through a series of interviews, the band look back at their achievements while also looking forward to what the future holds for them. On 18 November 2010, Williams and Barlow appeared together live on television for the first time on the Popstars program in Germany singing their hit "Shame".

In 2011, Take That's song "Love Love" was used in the credits of the 2011 film X-Men: First Class and later, "When We Were Young" was chosen as the main theme for The Three Musketeers movie. In 2015, the song "Get Ready for It" from their album III, was chosen as the theme song for the film Kingsman: The Secret Service.

In 2014, the band designed a Paddington Bear statue, which was exhibited outside the O2 Arena in London (one of 50 placed around the city). The statues were auctioned to raise funds for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC).

In 2017, Take That launched The Band, a musical written by Tim Firth featuring the five winners of Let It Shine and some of Take That's biggest hits. Take That, including Robbie Williams, were billed as executive producers.

The group's music is regularly featured in the Channel 4 show Derry Girls, notably in the third episode of the second series, when the lead characters sneak off to attend the 1993 Take That concert in Belfast; the episode features the music video for "Pray" and ends on footage of the band performing "Everything Changes".

Artistry
Early in their career, Take That were known for party anthems such as "Do What U Like" and more mature ballads such as "A Million Love Songs" and "Back for Good". Since reuniting in 2006, they have become more experimental: their post-2006 albums Beautiful World and The Circus have featured "stadium-filling pop-rock" while Progress largely leaned towards electropop. Having been dubbed the "comeback kings" by the media for their highly successful reunion, the group has won widespread praise for their seamless transformation from teen idols to "man band" without overly relying on nostalgia, instead showcasing a more mature image and sound    and reinventing themselves while maintaining their artistic integrity. Jude Rogers of The Guardian commented on Take That's post-reunion success, in light of a string of reunions by the group's disbanded counterparts from the 1990s: "Only Take That are penetrating pop's wider consciousness by becoming a man-band rather than a boy-band, singing mature, proper pop songs that cross the generations."

Take That have garnered critical acclaim and popularity as consummate live performers and for their musical output. Their domestic concert tours have been described as "some of the most flamboyant, imaginative and extravagant pop tours around". Aside from covers, all of their material is composed by the members themselves; Barlow was initially the principal songwriter who received sole credit but the other members have since taken a more active role in the composition and production process, including playing instruments for the backing track.

Current members

 * Gary Barlow (1990–1996, 2005–present)
 * Howard Donald (1990–1996, 2005–present)
 * Mark Owen (1990–1996, 2005–present)

Former members

 * Robbie Williams (1990–1995, 2010–2014)
 * Jason Orange (1990–1996, 2005–2014)

Discography

 * Take That & Party (1992)
 * Everything Changes (1993)
 * Nobody Else (1995)
 * Beautiful World (2006)
 * The Circus (2008)
 * Progress (2010)
 * III (2014)
 * Wonderland (2017)
 * This Life (2023)

Tours

 * Party Tour (1992–93)
 * Everything Changes Tour (1993–94)
 * Pops Tour (1994–95)
 * Nobody Else Tour (1995)
 * The Ultimate Tour (2006)
 * Beautiful World Tour (2007)
 * Take That Present The Circus Live (2009)
 * Progress Live (2011)
 * Take That Live (2015)
 * Wonderland Live (2017)
 * Greatest Hits Live (2019)
 * This Life on Tour (2024)

title: Take That


text:
Talk:Gary Gygax

LONG BIOGRAPHY of E(rnest) GARY GYGAX
Aiiieeeee!! According to the latest notes on the GA review, this source is currently unavailable. Wow, that is a big problem. I've tried to search that down on the internet, but haven't had any luck finding that yet.

It looks like that was first added over three years ago by K.Nevelsteen, a user who left Wikipedia a few months ago. So, it may not be possible to simply ask where that user specifically got that source.

Scanning through this talk page though, it does seem that Gary may have sent Kim that information via e-mail specifically for inclusion in this article. It would be super lurvely if we had access to that text somehow.

If we can't access this information, it will probably need to be re-sourced from different sources. BOZ (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Terribly sorry I hadn't noticed that sooner. Ugh, no idea it was that sort of thing--only other references I find on Google for that particular phrase are other Wikis--who likely got it from us. Jclemens (talk) 19:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

 * It's not your fault - somehow everyone missed that, or forgot about it since that happened so long ago. :) There are plenty of bios and articles with bio info that I can re-source it all if that's the way we need to go. I've printed up a few to peruse, and I'll get even more available for myself, but unless someone can produce the original thing that Gary sent to Kim, that looks like what we'll have to do. I'll ping a few users first and see if anyone else can help with this quandry. BOZ (talk) 19:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also keep in mind that if no one feels like challenging some of the statements, they don't necessarily have to be sourced. A quick survey says that about half of them aren't likely to be challenged (who is really going to dispute how many grandkids he has?). Jclemens (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a faint memory of this being a no-longer available web page that may not be available via archives like archive.org. But I can't for the life of me remember where it came from.  I'll mull on it further, but I'm not optimistic.  I poked the original editor who added it, just in case he comes back. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It isn't this is it? http://www.thekyngdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37 shadzar-talk 04:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Shadzar, not that I know of. Notice that I also got a few more links on this thread as well. Here's what I'm thinking of doing. Regardless of whether we find that source, I will not remove it from the article (for now). I will find as much of the info sourced to that biography in other bios written on him, and add those cites on. If, by then (a few days from now) we will still need to have the "Longbio" on hand to jump the last hurdle to GA, I will remove all references to it. It will be done soon. :) BOZ (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't have to remove it, necessarily. It might look cleaner, but just because a source is "lost" doesn't mean it never existed, just that it can't be relied upon.  Adding another source should be adequate to satisfy the GA reviewer, I suspect. Jclemens (talk) 02:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You'd be the best judge of what will satisfy the GA reviewer, I'd imagine. ;)  Fair enough, over the next day or two as I find the time I'll tack on at least one more source to everything currently cited to the "longbio" as I mentioned above, and I shall do no more. :) BOZ (talk) 04:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

For reference, these are the 8 statements that need to be sourced again; some will be easier to fix than others (and some may not be fixable without the original document?) - feel free to beat me to any of these:

BOZ (talk) 05:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Gen Con is now North America's largest annual hobby-game gathering.
 * 2) Together with Don Kaye, Mike Reese and Leon Tucker, Gygax created a military miniatures society, Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association (LGTSA), with its first headquarters in Gygax's basement.
 * 3) In January 1974 the game was first released by TSR as a boxed set, and a hand-assembled print run of 1000 copies sold out within nine months.
 * 4) In the same year, Gygax hired Tim Kask to assist in the transition of TSR's magazine The Strategic Review into the fantasy periodical The Dragon, with Gygax as author and later as columnist.
 * 5) By 2005, Gygax had seven grandchildren.
 * 6) ...having almost suffered a heart attack after receiving incorrect medication to prevent further strokes after those on April 1 and May 4 2004.
 * 7) Even while his health failed, gaming remained very much a part of his life.
 * 8) Gary Gygax received several awards related to gaming (presumably some or all of those listed were found in the bio)

 * Sourced these to existing sources... got a few more to do. BOZ (talk) 06:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

 * By the way... have a look at this. :) BOZ (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am going to use the Kyngdoms interview linked by Shadzar above (and listed under the article's external links; it will be transformed into a web citation as I go) probably extensively tomorrow and over the weekend. It seems chock full of info, and while it is not "longbio" it clearly does make reference to that bio, so I bet I could reference most of what is not yet referenced, and probably straighten out a few more things in the article.BOZ (talk) 05:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I've milked that interview for about as much as I can, although it definitely allowed me to provide additional cites on various items and clarify a number of things. The remaining items need citing relate to his health and personal life, which most of the sources speak little or nothing of. :) I will see what else I can do... BOZ (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Searching Google...

http://theprecis.com/blog/?p=43 seems to source #5 and #6, if we could count on that as a reliable source.

http://www.acaeum.com/library/castlecrusade.html might help with #2, despite the arguing? :)

If those aren't quite good enough, I'm not sure what else to do... BOZ (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Woohoo! :) I'm taking a break... there a tons of links above for anyone who wants to do any more fixing on this article. BOZ (talk) 02:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello guys. Sorry, I haven't been on Wikipedia much. Thanks to BOZ and Alan De Smet for their messages. I can supply the document in question... no problem. It should be lurking on my harddrive. How did you want it? Just upload it to wiki? --User:K.Nevelsteen (talk) 08:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What about here: User:K.Nevelsteen/Gary_Gygax_Biography? — STAR TREK Man[Space, the final frontier...] 13:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That page doesn't seem to exist... -Drilnoth (talk) 14:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just I was telling him to cut and paste his document in this place ... — STAR TREK Man[Space, the final frontier...] 14:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh. Duh. I hadn't seen his comment there. My bad. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, the file is a doc file and if I upload it, I want it to remain intact as I got it. So, copy paste is not an option. I can upload it as attach perhaps. Someone who is up to date with current wiki protocol, please advise.
 * Thanks again Kim, your help has been invaluable to this article thus far, and will be even moreso if you can provide this for us. BOZ (talk) 04:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I really had a lot of fun talking with Gary, so that was reward enough. It's nice to be appreciated though. =)  --K.Nevelsteen (talk) 14:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Kim has sent me a copy of the "LONGBIO" document; it comes straight from the source. Due to some personal information regarding his family, I cannot post the whole thing anywhere, out of respect for both Gary's wishes and WP:BLP. However, you can ask for anything in it and I'll post, and at some point I'll try to get a list or something of what's in there. A lot of it is stuff that's not in the Wiki article, but then a lot of it probably shouldn't be (although if you are curious, I can definitely share some of those pieces). If the current attribution is insufficient, I'll have to see what we can do about that. I'm sure it was never published, but there is a copyright date on it. BOZ (talk) 14:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

 * If it wasn't published, it's sadly a problematic source, as other people can't realistically track down a copy to confirm things. That said, I'm surprised it wasn't published, since K.Nevelsteen got their hands on a copy.  ("A few photocopies run off and mailed to people" counts as published, as would "emailed to people who asked." :-) )  Any idea on what we're looking at? — Alan De Smet | Talk 17:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Other people besides Kim have definitely seen it, and I'm sure Gary has shared it with people before. The Kyngdoms interview, for one, makes reference to it, and I could swear I've seen similar references to the bio in other places. I know that makes it not the best source possible, and like others have been doing, I'm going to do my best to replace cites to it with cites to other things. It'll take a little time to do that though, but I should have some time for that in a little while. BOZ (talk) 00:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So how about this: if I replace something from Longbio with a ProQuest source, and you find another freely available source, go ahead and add that one alongside mine. I'll compare, and remove the non-free-to-read source if the free one is as good or better. Sound good? 01:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll do what I can, but I may not be able to do much in that regard. Yes, it is easier for all to be able to check a freely-available online source, but there is no such requirement to do so if the source can be read by someone diligent enough. BOZ (talk) 02:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If Gary circulated it to people interviewing him or reporting it, it's reasonably published, if difficult to acquire. So I have absolutely no objections to using it.  If we can replace citations with more widely available sources, all the better, but that's just icing on the cake. — Alan De Smet | Talk 18:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus, he apparently did bother to get it copywritten, if the little symbol on there can be assumed to be true. :) It's not the best source for a lot of things (and the worst possible kind of source for some things), but for some stuff (like how he played his own little version of LARPS in the 1940s) it's ideal. BOZ (talk) 19:21, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I have the long biography. Idea123 (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)idea123

Moving on
Thanks everyone who helped in any way, your effort was worth it. :) I'm moving on to see what can be done with the Wizards of the Coast article. Join me there if you like, or join me wherever I end up after that. I'm taking this page off my watchlist now. :) BOZ (talk) 21:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Futurama citations
I haven't found a single source for citing the Futurama tribute. Here's what I have so far; I welcome someone else to integrate them if you want. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Gary Gygax gets a mention at the end of the film, with a clip from his cameo on an older episode after the credits which is nice, considering how much of a role D&D has in the film."

Add'tl writings - indie
Foreword (well, forward) Wayfarer:Infinity (isbn:0946455716) - 75.53.100.203 (talk) 23:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Featured?
Anyone think that this would be a reasonable article to work up to FA-class? I think that I can add in quite a few sources. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Count me in (as a participant, not reviewer) if you decide to go for it. I've got little FA experience to contribute, but I'll do what I can. Jclemens (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I'll get to work on finding some more citations, improving the prose where it's needed, checking image fair-use rationales, checking external links, etc. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, allright. :) J, speaking of FA, we've got Ravenloft (D&D module) up for consideration, and we've also got Gen Con waiting for someone to take it on for GAN, if you might be interested. BOZ (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to work on trimming the various lists of works; I just finished up the list of D&D modules. If you think that any of the ones which I removed should be kept, please don't hesitate to add them back in. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * After being involved in the Ravenloft FA, I think it's safe to say that having all three of the fair-use images in this article probably won't pass. I think that we can probably do two; which should we remove? -Drilnoth (talk) 23:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you aware that Flint Dille, who worked with Gary on a few books, is the brother of Lorraine Williams? Check out this for more on the Dille family. Gary liked Flint (the G.I. Joe character was probably named after him), and thought his sister would make a good manager for TSR when he was having problems with Brian Blume and his brother... that didn't work out too well though. :) BOZ (talk) 00:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was not aware of that; most interesting. -Drilnoth (talk) 01:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess Flint has a very tangential relationship to D&D, mostly through association with others. Not sure he should be on the D&D project though, but he should definitely be on WP bio. ;) BOZ (talk) 01:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have a point. -Drilnoth (talk) 01:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am going to momentarily nominate this for FA-class. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh well; at least now we have a nice list of things to work on before re-nomination. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep! No oppose votes was a good thing, but no support votes was a bad thing. :) Like I said before, Dungeons & Dragons was nominated 5 times before it made FA-class. If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. BOZ (talk) 03:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Conflicting accounts
I've seen in various places that Chainmail was written in 1968 and in 1971. I know that it was published in 1971, but was wondering what date it was actually written, if anyone can help. Thanks! -Drilnoth (talk) 16:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Another conflict is whether Gygax met Arneson at Gen Con 2 (per the reference in the article) or Gen Con 4 (per The Game Inventor's Guidebook. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That might be from the part of one interview where Arneson identifies the time he met Gygax - naturally, two different people remember events two different ways. We may just have to cut out the year if they conflict and say that "they met at Gencon" and leave it at that. BOZ (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. -Drilnoth (talk) 23:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The reference in the Dave Arneson article says he met Gary at GenCon 1970. BOZ (talk) 04:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Legacy
I've removed the following section from the article because it doesn't really fit in anywhere, and it too short as its own section. It would probably be best located at Wiktionary.

"Futurama writer Eric Kaplan mentioned in 2008 that he asked Gary Gygax if he, himself had created role-playing games. Kaplan recounts that Gygax 'very modestly said No. As long as kids have been playing cops & robbers and cowboys & indians, they've been playing roleplaying games'."

-Drilnoth (talk) 12:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Presumably you mean WikiQuote? I agree that for now there's not much point in that section. "Legacy" generally implies long-term effects. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep; Wikiquote. My bad. -Drilnoth (talk) 12:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Death Threats & Bodyguards
I want to find and include more information on this. What is there is pretty minimal, and doesn't even concretely specify the year ('81 or '82) when this happened. It sounds like Gygax himself is the only source on much of this, unfortunately. Jclemens (talk) 17:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I am available and will answer a limited amount of questions. Idea123 (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)idea123
 * And who might you be? :) BOZ (talk) 20:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

LONG BIOGRAPHY
Hey there. I've been working in some of the info from the "longbio" source. I'm not going to use everything from it, since some of it is info about his family and some of it simply doesn't belong in a bio. Some of it I may just post here on the talk page for the curious, but I'll have to use my judgment to avoid posting stuff that he would have preferred not to have up here.

It begins with a timeline, most of which was already in the article, so I just added the parts that weren't. If I added anything that seems too trivial, feel free to edit out. There are a couple of things that I have no idea how to work in:

1988-94	Creator/author under contract to Omega Helios Limited

1995-on	Creator/author under contract to Trigee Enterprises Corporation

BOZ (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The next section after the timeline is a list of works, from which the list of works formerly in the article was apparently derived. About the only items mentioned in longbio that weren't in the article at some point, if you think they might be worth mentioning, are (note that some of the "pending publication" items may have been printed since this was written in 2005):

Creative Works
WARRIORS OF MARS Game (Science Fantasy, with Brian Blume)

CODEX ERDE Search for the Lost City introductory adventure for THE LOST CITY OF GAXMOOR D20 adventure module (Ernie & Luke Gygax with David Moore) Troll Lord Games, 2002

THE LEJENDARY ADVENTURE™ PROJECT (current) Role-Playing Games, Accessories, & Adventure Scenarios:

ENCLAVE (Chris Clark), Adventure module editor, Hekaforge Productions, 2000

LEJENDARY ASTEROGUES Fantastical Science LA RPG Genre Expansion, currently (2005) being developed for publication in 2006 or thereafter

LEJENDARY ELDER WORLDS Core Rules and World Setting base for a Science Fiction Genre Expansion of the LA Game, currently (2005) being developed for publication in 2006 or thereafter

LEJENDARY WILD WEST Fantasy Western LA RPG Genre Expansion, currently (2005) being developed for publication in 2006 or thereafter

Pending Publication: LEJENDARY EARTH World Setting, Parts 4-5 (coming in 2005-6), Hekaforge Productions

SHAMANISM & WITCHERY Core Rules expansion for the LA RPG, Troll Lord Games

TOME OF KNOWLEDGE Core Rules additions for the LA RPG, Troll Lord Games

MORE BEASTS OF LEJEND Core Rules additions for the LA RPG, Troll Lord Games

LEJENDARY PANTHEONS book of LE world Setting Deities for the LA FRPG, Troll Lord Games

KEY OF SAND Lejendary Earth sourcebook

MALEDICTED Lejendary Earth sourcebook

LEJENDARY PANTHEONS Lejendary Earth sourcebook(s)

WELL OF SHADOWS Lejendary Adventure/Lejendary Earth module

GENERIC and “D20 Open Game License” (* indicates+ LA Game) RPG WORKS Gary Gygax’s Essential Places for the fantasy milieu, “Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds, Volume VIII”, Zane McCarthy (to be released), Troll Lord Games, 2005

Gary Gygax’s Fantasy Fortifications for the fantasy milieu, “Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds, Volume X”, Robert A. Nolan (to be released), Troll Lord Games, 2005=6

Gary Gygax’s Fantastic Folk & Mythical Monsters for the fantasy milieu, “Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds, Volume XI”, Craig Peters (to be released), Troll Lord Games, 2005-6

Gary Gygax’s High Seas Fantasy for the fantasy milieu, “Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds, Volume XII”, Kelly Doherty (to be released), Troll Lord Games, 2006

Possibly several other books in the “Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds” series are slated for production in 2007-7, Gary Gygax series editor,

The Hermit*, dual-stat d20/LA game adventure module, Troll Lord Games, August 2002

Castle Wolfmoon* (Chris Clark with Gary Gygax) D20/LA game adventure module (to be released later by), Inner City Game Designs (spring-summer 2006)

Board Games

War of Empires (Science Fiction, authored with Tuillo Proni), privately produced and managed PBM-only Science Fiction wargame

Diplomacy® Game Variants (non-commercial game variants) Conanomacy

Khanomacy

Rajomacy

Chess Game Variants

Various others in a work, 21st Century Chess Variants, that are available in electronic format on my website

Development

LANKHMAR (TSR) Fantasy Board Game — rules and playing board

Play Testing (ask and I'll list them)

Alternate History:

Victorious German Arms, with Terry Stafford (T-K Graphics. 1973)

“Swords of Eternity” (Fantasy short story based on Fritz Leiber’s “Lankhmar” universe, featuring Sheelba, Ningauble, Fafhrd, and the Gray Mouser—still unpublished.)

Articles Authored

Amateur and professional game and hobby publications (several dozen, including: The Avalon Hill GENERAL, DOMESDAY BOOK, CAMPAIGN, DRAGON, EL CONQUISTADOR, EUROPA, GREAT PLAINS GAME PLAYER'S NEWSLETTER, INTERNATIONAL WARGAMER, LA VIVANDIER, PANZERFAUST, TROLL, SHADIS, SPARTAN, SPARTAN INTERNATIONAL MONTHLY, WARGAMER'S DIGEST, WARGAMER'S NEWSLETTER.

Consultation for Computer and Paper Game Publishers

Various consulting work for computer game producers as to game content and interactive play elements, of which I am not at liberty to discuss the specific nature of the work or the companies for whom I did it. The same is true in regard to consulting work done for paper game publishers.

Computer Game Design

Of the score or so of designs and design proposals that have been developed, three were optioned—one fantasy and two science fiction games. All three, however, were not to see production for various reasons beyond the author’s control, including the sale of the production entity and cancellation of all projects not in full development in the case of the last such game Gygax authored.

The Lejendary Adventure Game as a Massively Multiplayer Persistent Online RPG

As of this date Dreams Interactive has been licensed to produce the LA MMPO RPG, and work is proceeding well.

One can check into this at http://di.gamepoint.net/lejendary/en/index.php?page=about to see where things are currently at. Gygax is intimately involved in the development of this game, and it promises to offer not only the best graphics ever seen in the medium, but also many new features to set it apart from all other similar online offerings. Beta testing is expected to commence in late 2003.

BOZ (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Special Awards
Most of the stuff in this section also came from "longbio", and here's some more that isn't currently in the article:

SPECIAL AWARDS…

…in addition to being a Member of the Honorable Order of Kentucky Colonels:

1981 Origins Game Convention	Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame

1984 GAMES Magazine 	GAMES Hall of Fame

1994 GAMA	Game Manufacturers Association Honor of for long- 	term contribution to industry Service Award

2004 Origins Award	Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts & Design Hall of Fame Honors

BOZ (talk) 02:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
PUBLIC SPEAKING APPEARANCES (not a comprehensive list - covers numerous appearances from 1980-2005; I'll post if you want to see)

ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION APPEARANCE Dexter’s Laboratory: Honorable mention of “Gygax” name for Dexter’s character

NEWS MEDIA COVERAGE

Dozens of interviews in newspapers nationwide, and on various radio and television shows both local and national in scope. Highlights include the following: (It is impossible to list the appearances of articles or news stories about Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games, as they have appeared in the majority of newspapers in the country.)

Television

Entertainment Tonight

Livewire

PM Magazine

60 Minutes

Tom Snyder Show

National German Television

Radio (many shows* including)

Michael Jackson Show ABC Network

WJR Detroit

Stations in France and the United Kingdom

 * Approximately one hundred radio interviews done in regard to role-playing and games, and some dozen for the “L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future” contest, the last of those in 1991.

Magazines

DRAGON

FORBES

GAMES

ICON

INC. Magazine

JEUX de CARTE (France)

MILWAUKEE Magazine

NEWSWEEK

PEOPLE

POLYHEDRON Newszine

SALON

TIME

US

Newspapers

Wall Street Journal (exclusive feature)

Most major metropolitan newspapers, including:

Chicago Tribune

Los Angeles Times

New York Times

St. Louis Post-Dispatch

USA Today

Washington Post

Others in Great Britain, Germany, Italy, and Japan

Interviews have centered on creativity, authorship, computer games and entrepreneurial business, recently the history of the role-playing game, the effects of computer and online role-playing games, and the Lord of the Rings movie.

Two Mentions that fall into the “No Comment” Department

Trivial Pursuit (original version): Gary Gygax as the answer to a question therein.

Time Magazine, 24 November 2002: Gary Gygax as being influenced by the work of Tolkien.

SCHOLARLY COVERAGE

OXF0RD ENGLISH DICTIONARY

Entry of Gygax name under that for Dungeons & Dragons as of 13 March 2003:

“Dungeons and Dragons, n.

”A proprietary name for: a fantasy role-playing game set in an imaginary world based loosely on medieval myth, in which players' characters undertake (individual) quests at the direction of a player in the role of the Dungeon Master, who dictates the nature of their environment, the obstacles they are to overcome, etc.; abbreviated D & D. Also allusively: a situation or undertaking likened to a game of Dungeons and Dragons, esp. in involving a complex and unpredictable sequence of events, out of the control of the protagonist.

”1974 E. G. GYGAX & D. ARENESON (title) Dungeons & Dragons: rules for fantastic medieval wargames campaigns playable with paper and pencil and miniature figures. 1979 N.Y. Times 8 Sept. 10/2 An elaborate version of a bizarre intellectual game called Dungeons and Dragons. 1982 London Rev. Bks. 30 Dec. 7/3 Dungeons and Dragons, with its whole spin-off family of Role-Playing Games, is much easier to categorise. 1987 New Yorker 20 Nov. 110/2 His Global Project reads like an elaborate boys' gamea revolutionaries' Dungeons and Dragons. 1991 Vanity Fair Dec. 90/1 He was slowly, then rapidly, sucked into a kind of covert-ops version of Dungeons & Dragons, with that memo as his guide and Michael Riconosciuto as his Dungeon Master. 1994 Etc. Montréal 15 Feb. 39/1 At the IFFM, beneath a long black leather coat.., Tarantino sports a goth-rock, dungeons-and-dragons type t-shirt, plus jeans and sneakers. 2001 Toronto Star (Electronic ed.) 9 Apr., Computer cousins to paper-and-pen games like Dungeons and Dragons, role-playing video games involve player-created characters moving through fantasy landscapes.”

BOZ (talk) 02:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Personal Facts & Stories
The rest of the "longbio" (about half of it) is taken up by various things, most of which I shouldn't really post here. :) Some of it may be OK to share, depending on what it is, but I'll be conservative as far as that goes. Included are information on his birthplace, parents, wife, children, grandchildren, religion, hobbies, interest in history, special likes, earliest memories, what he liked as a boy, radio programs, music, cooking, some grudging admissions, entertainment, some favorite books, some favorite films, jobs he's worked, favorite magazines, former residences, foreign countries he's visited, states he's missed, monumental historical events in his lifetime, and paranormal experiences. He also describes what it's like for him at work, and some other ambitions. Like I say, I won't post most of that here, but I'll consider some of it.

If I didn't mention it somewhere in this thread, and it hasn't already been in the article, then it's not in "LONGBIO". :) The end. ;) BOZ (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! -Drilnoth (talk) 02:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I just remembered, I have an interview with GG somewhere in the house from White Dwarf 14 I will try to dig up. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

from WD 14 Interview
OK - from White Dwarf 14 (Aug/Sept 1979) article: White Dwarf Interviews Gary Gygax (pp 23-24) author Ian Livingstone. All points below sourced from this article. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Interests - classical music, reading, writing, walking, stamp collecting and tropical fish. He followed the Green Bay Packers and Chicago Bears in the football.

 * Bought obscure variants of chess from age 14, and bought his first boardgame Gettysburg at age 21.

 * About 90% of readers who tried the fantasy rules for Chainmail liked them.

 * Also cites Dungeon! as an influence on the development of D&D.

 * Cool. :) BOZ (talk) 04:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

What needs better citing?
I've got access to ProQuest and EBSCOHost, and I've added a few of the refs that I found in appropriate places. Good news on these is that they're all RS; bad news is that the online versions are not available to the general public. I'd like feedback on whether what I've added is beneficial and, if so, what others would like sourced from those full-text news databases. ProQuest has 114 articles on Gygax, EBSCOHost has 12. Jclemens (talk) 06:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice work! I'd say that anything currently using the LONGBIO as a ref should be replaced with a non-autobiographical source, if possible. The FAC also mentions lists some of the other not-quite-reliable sources that the article has; many of those have been dealt with already, but there's a few left. Thanks! -Drilnoth (talk) 13:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I've cited everything to other sources as I could. What's left sourced to Longbio are essentially his childhood, early career, and  personal life. There are a couple of rather interesting obits that aren't currently cited, but I'm not sure they'll add anything special to what's already there. Jclemens (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Don Kaye's death
You know, I'm not sure about January 1976. A lot of details in a lot of sources seem to indicate that he died in 1975, with the formation of TSR Hobbies being in that year (some do conflict and give 1976). I also note that in the Social Security Death Index there is a Donald Kaye who seems a likely match and died in January 1975. Just saying, is all. :) BOZ (talk) 03:43, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, Gygax says 75 in his 1979 interview in WD. I can't imagine him making that mistake then. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

A-Class?
Since I've done a lot of editing on this one, I probably can't do it myself, but any editors besides me think this GA is worthy of A-class? BOZ (talk) 23:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There was a recent proposal somewhere (I forget) that not-listed FAC's should be considered for A class. I, too, don't feel impartial enough to award it, since I would have claimed partial credit for the FA pass if we'd made it. :-) Jclemens (talk) 23:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure! Per the A-Class criteria, three people need to agree to make a GA into A-Class. -Drilnoth (talk) 23:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather than pat ourselves on the backs for a job well done, I'd rather see some more impartial editors comment - but maybe we all count as 1/3 of a vote so we only need 2 more. ;) BOZ (talk) 23:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough; I'll see if I can find a place to request additional input. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * D&D project talk page? ;) I think it is an assessment that can (and maybe should) be made by a specific WP project, I just think the three of us are too involved to make it alone. BOZ (talk) 23:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good candidate to me, I support the raise to A-Class. FraterNLST (talk) 08:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

War historian
Can we categorize Gygax as a Military Historian? He's a history enthusiast and it was this that inspired him to create war games, so could he be categorized under Category:Military historians? Cooltrainer Hugh (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What qualifications would you need in order to classify him as such? 67.175.176.178 (talk) 03:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of Gygax having authored any works about military history, having lectured on it, or generally having made the study of military history a key part of his life. Being an enthusiast isn't enough, nor is making games about it. — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Gary Gygax vs E. Gary Gygax
I believe Gygax is more commonly known as "Gary Gygax" than "E. Gary Gygax," especially media coverage over the last decade or so. Given that and, I believe "Gary Gygax" is the better article title. Any reason it was moved to "E. Gary Gygax" instead? — Alan De Smet | Talk 03:45, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Based my reading, Gygax used E. Gary with all TSR products, but I notice that on Journeys, Cyborg Commando, and Gord novels he dropped the first initial. I'd have zero objection if this were moved back to the Gary Gygax namespace. BusterD (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "E. Gary Gygax" was certainly his pen name for *some* of his published work, but I don't know of anyone in the gaming world who commonly used the "E." when referring to him. Did a quick Google: the day after he died, the internet chatter was "Did you hear that Gary Gygax died?", not "Did you hear that E. Gary Gygax died?"For that reason, I would prefer to see the article moved back to "Gary Gygax" as per WP:COMMONNAME. Guinness323 (talk) 17:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I did the boldness thing, moved per this discussion, and fixed six double redirects. Funny, there are scores of redirects to this pagespace, but only six to E. Gary. More fish for the kettle. BusterD (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Chainmail
This statement is problematic:

For the second edition of Chainmail, published in 1972, Gygax added a fantasy supplement to the rules.

The fantasy rules were present in both the 1st edition of Chainmail published by Guidon Games in 1971 and the 2nd edition published in 1972. See The Acaeum. An earlier version of the rules was published in the Domesday Book which was a photocopied newsletter with a circulation of no more than 80. The Domesday Book rules did not have the fantasy supplement but they weren't called "Chainmail" either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grubbiv (talk • contribs) 20:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Chistianity
Why has nothing been said about his faith? Just a quick google gives me this link http://drchris.me/d20/?p=156 So the idea is well known, I don't see any good sources but still. --68.13.181.181 (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't see any good sources...." That's probably a key bit. Making claims about someone's faith without pretty solid evidence is pretty dangerous. If you find some reliable sources about it, please include them! — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He has mentioned his feelings on sprituality before in interviews, but he does not really get into specifics. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 19:05, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

"co"-father of DnD is ok, but father of role-playing games?
I read a lot about it, and it was Dave Arneson that actually created the role-playing features in Dungeons and Dragons. Gygax contribution was much more on the "wargame rules" level, since both loved wargames. Actually, if there is a father for role-playing, it would be Arneson. The source cited in the article (a GameSpy interview) doesn't say that. It says Gygax is the father of DnD, and in other place it says DnD is the father of role-playing games. Actually, Gygax is the co-creator of DnD, and if DnD is the father of role-playing games, then the dna in it came from Arneson. I suggest to remove this phrase, since we cannot even say he is "one of the fathers". Arneson turn a wargame (like Chainmail) in a role-playing game (Blackmoor) first and alone. Excuse the rant, that's because I see this mistake over and over. In the cited GameSpy interview, even Gygax recognizes that, in a twisted and indirect way: "Even when you're playing miniatures, there's still some role-playing aspect. You'll pretend to be the commander of the group, and so forth. The one-to-one rules tended to make that aspect more prominent. It was Dave Arnenson, though, who started playing a Chainmail game where each of his players had just one figure on the table. That was the impetus for me (to put together what eventually became Dungeons & Dragons)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hexacorde (talk • contribs) 00:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Dave Arneson freely admitted that David Wesely was the person who first introduced him to role-playing in the late 1960s, when he ran something called a "Braunstein" military scenario where everyone played an individual character who had individual motivations and goals; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wesely explains it better. Not to mention that there has been some discussion of the even earlier (1963?) publication by Michael F. Korns, "The Modern War in Miniature....," which includes an example of play that sounds very much like what we now identify as role-playing as well.  The "founder of role-playing" argument is far deeper than Gygax versus Arneson, certainly. 174.31.154.207 (talk) 01:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I have corrected the claim to match the cited article. "GameSpy sits down with the father of Dungeons & Dragons...." Who is the "real" father role-playing games will probably never be answered.  That Gygax has been called the father of D&D is certainly something we can verify. — Alan De Smet | Talk 06:36, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Clinton, Illinois?
There is a sourced section that suggests he moved to Clinton, Illinois, after separating from his first wife, but the source it links to mentions Frank Mentzer picking him up from his home in Clinton, Wisconsin, and as far as I can tell says nothing about either Illinois or a divorce. 174.31.154.207 (talk) 01:15, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Problem with main photo of Gygax
Just a subjective suggestion, but I find the main picture of Gygax to be distasteful. Surly we can locate a more dignified photo of the man to represent his article on our encyclopedia. Perhaps a photo like this one.--Nikoz78 (talk) 15:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we need a free image. And why is this picture "distasteful"? 24.1.246.28 (talk) 17:20, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It can't be that awful, dozens of news sites used the photograph in their announcements of Gygax's death. Of course, they used it because it was photograph they could get, which is why we use it.  I'm not real happy with it myself.  I took the photograph, and almost immediately I realized it was only a so-so photograph.  But I'd already interrupted Gygax's conversation to request the photograph, and I didn't want to further interrupt.  I told myself, "No worries, I'll just try again next year."  :-/ So, yeah, if you can find a better photograph under a Wikipedia acceptable license, I'm all for replacing the lead photograph. — Alan De Smet | Talk 01:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I still have it, but there was one photo that Gary gave me upon request for a "better photo". It was removed a long time ago. I can see if I still have it. Email me, if it would be acceptable according to wiki licensing (since I am not up to date anymore). — K.Nevelsteen (talk) 08:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Availability at EasterCon 1973
The source most closely cited (#36 as of right now, http://books.google.com/books?id=8H8bzqj6S4sC&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false) for the claim that the game debuted at EasterCon (a UK science fiction convention, incidentally) 1973 says absolutely nothing about it, and if you Google the issue you will find lots of chatter ridiculing the idea that the game was available before 1974, "pre-release" form or not. Certainly there is no citation for this claim, in any case, but I do not want to just take it out lest someone put it right back. 63.226.214.7 (talk) 11:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The source says "In 1973, Gygax collaborated with Don Kaye and Brian Blume ... The game appeared that same year at EasterCon. Pre-release copies were in circulation by the end of 1973, but the first commercial version of Dungeons & Dragons was published in January 1974", and this is attributed to Greg Costikyan. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Image:Gary_Gyax_-_ModCon_1999_-_1.jpg
I would like to propose Image:Gary_Gyax_-_ModCon_1999_-_1.jpg for the main image for the article. The current main picture is just plain ugly!--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 08:30, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

My, my, my!
Looks as though one of the users here has a highly proprietary view of this article, even going to the point of undoing a grammatical revision that sought to bring clarity  to a muddy section. This article is far too wordy, badly written and overly footnoted, needs all the help that one might sneak past the fierce guardian of this tripe a la mode de wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.109.37 (talk) 20:20, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Gary Con addition to awards and honors section?
Since his death in 2008, a convention, originally started quite small, as you might imagine, has been held in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, USA, in his honor. This event takes place each March (dates do vary.) The latest one "Gary Con XI" was held at the Grand Geneva Resort and had thousands of attendees. It may sound silly, but I think this event should be mentioned in the "awards and honors" section of the article, considering the event is in Gary's honor (obviously), and is growing in size each year, and isn't a small, isolated, one-time (or few time) event. I will leave the addition/editing to someone better suited to the task. For reference the official website is https://garycon.com/ 2604:2D80:C003:8195:A531:2DBB:DA51:8473 (talk) 16:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with you. 8.37.179.254 (talk) 00:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Ernest Gygax not in Chicago Symphony Orchestra
The claim that Ernest Gygax was a violinist in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is false.

To fact check this, I contacted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's archives—the Rosenthal Archives to confirm if Ernest Gygax was a member. The reply was:

"I see that it’s included (and footnoted) on Gary’s Wikipedia page, but unfortunately, we can find no record of a Ernest Gygax performing with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra or the Civic Orchestra of Chicago, either as a rostered member or a guest soloist. A complete list of our former musicians can be found on our website here: https://cso.org/globalassets/about/rosenthal-archives/pdfs/former_musicians.pdf

I then checked with the Chicago Federation of Musicians to see if he was a member there. He was not.

You are welcome to contact both to verify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redsighthound (talk • contribs) 12:36, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Redsighthound (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

False referencing and poorly researched sources
There is quite a bit in this Wikipedia entry that is sourced with references in Witwer's Empire of the Imagination and Kusner's "Dungeon Master: The Life and Legacy of Gary Gygax" and Rise of the Dungeon Master.

The problem is that the source material does not contain such information.

Another problem is that Witwer and Kusner's works are were not fact-checked and contain quite a bit of fiction. In both cases, interviews were conducted and taken at face-value as true statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redsighthound (talk • contribs) 20:50, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

 * I can't speak for other editors, but firstly, any reference I used from Witwer's book includes a page number. Please be more specific about which facts sourced from Witwer are not found in his book.

 * Secondly, Witwer does precede each chapter with a fictional "docudramatic" section, supposedly written from Gygax's PoV, but he then continues with a straight fact-based biography. Again, I can't speak for any other editors, but I did not pull any "facts" from the fictional sections, only from the biographical sections.

 * If you would like to dispute any of Witwer's published facts by providing another reliable source that contradicts him, this is certainly the forum to do so. Guinness323 (talk) 21:45, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

 * Where does Witwer delicate his switch to "a straight fact-based biography?" The whole book is written from Gary's POV and fictionalized.Redsighthound (talk) 02:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

 * Umm no. Most of the book is third person narrative. Witwer does include some fictionalized scenes written from Gygax's PoV, but says at the start of the book, "I have, however, provided a way for those who would actually like to be able to distinguish actual quotes and writings from those that have been editorialized, re-created, or imagined in the course of this work. Quotes or strings of quotes that are immediately followed by a note reference number are derived from actual comments and writings; the associated note provides relevant source and contextual information. Notes are also used to provide source information on particular accounts (especially those that are otherwise controversial or contested), to credit sources for various information, or to provide further details on a particular topic."
 * I can't speak for every editor who has used the Witwer biography, but I only referenced facts that had a note reference confirming the original source. Guinness323 (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Reference about Gail Gygax
I found this article about Gail Gygax. I think it is an interesting perspective. I have not edited Gary's page for a long time though, perhaps someone else can incorporate it? Fantasy's Widow: The Fight Over The Legacy Of Dungeons & Dragons --K.Nevelsteen (talk) 07:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Nope
His name is pronounced with a Z not a X sound. E.i. Gygaz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.28.46 (talk) 10:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 * Nope. Might want to talk to his sons (Luke and Ernie) about that. They clearly, and repeatedly, report the pronunciation as is phonetically used at the beginning of the article. 198.70.2.200 (talk) 13:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've never heard anyone refer to him as "Guy-gaz." It is possible that other people with this last name do say it that way, but not this family. 208.47.202.254 (talk) 13:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

1960 Presidential Election
The tale of infractions at the 1960 elections is told without any caveats. I checked the biography and Witwer includes the modifier "allegedly" at one point.

The original claim seems to be from a forum post which has either been deleted or moved. I tried to find it, going through the Wayback Machine, but found nothing.

enworld.org 2003–4. “Q&A with Gary Gygax—Part V.” Enworld.org. Retrieved from http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=71486.

Even if the original is found I think the best solution would be to remove the section. If not then there should be some effort to soften the claim. Óli Gneisti (talk) 20:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would agree with User:Óli Gneisti's assessment. This sort of detail might be appropriate in a full-length biographical book. I own Witmer, but don't think he's an authoritative biographer, merely an early one. This is excessive detail for an encyclopedia article on this non-political subject. BusterD (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

 * I concur. I removed the section. Rray (talk) 22:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Family and personal
This article is very thin on the Gygax family, mentioning only the names of his wives and the number of children he had. But in recent years, some of his children have become prominent (and controversial) in the game industry.

Most visibly, Ernie Gygax Junior has co-founded a company under the name "TSR" (also the name of the original publisher of Dungeons and Dragons), a trademark also claimed by Wizards of the Coast (the Hasbro subsidiary the now owns D&D) and another game company. Ernie has been accused of incorporating bigoted beliefs.

Luke Gygax is among those critical of Ernie, and implies that he speaks for some or all of the other four Gygax siblings.

The game industry and community are divided into camps: pro-Ernie, anti-Ernie, and (probably the largest) not paying attention.

I found numerous articles on the family strife with a web search for "Ernie Gygax Jr", including this: TSR Games Distances Itself From Ernie G. Gygax Jr., the Owner of Another TSR Games.

I'm not sure the family members are Wikipedia-notable individually, but they may be collectively. Much of the conflict is covered in TSR, Inc., but maybe the people may deserve a collective article, or expanded mention in the Personal section of this article.

Discussion?
 * — Steve98052 (talk) 00:53, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there enough independent RS commentary to cover this in an encyclopedic fashion? If not, let's simply leave it to the tabloids, or whatever the equivalent. Jclemens (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * We also have to consider UNDUE. BOZ (talk) 02:37, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Empire of Imagination
It might be worth looking at starting something for that book, but for reference in the meantime I did find one review: BOZ (talk) 18:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

“[Believed] that different races of people were biologically distinct” — misleading and poorly sourced
The claim about Gygax adhering to scientific racism was added to the Personal Life section by an anonymous editor on March 5th of this year, with the source provided being this PBS article which describes Gygax as "[believing] that different races of people were biologically distinct and capable of different things in life".

The PBS article, however, cites a source that does not support this claim — Dragon Issue #29, containing an entry of Gygax's From the Sorcerer’s Scroll column that concerns "race" as a game mechanic representing fantasy creatures (elves, dwarves, ogres, fairies, etc.) and makes zero comments on real-world "racial" groupings of human beings based on ethnicity or phenotype.

Unless a better source in which Gygax makes such statements on the subject of real-world "racial" categorization can be found, this claim should be removed from the article. The statement that he believed women were naturally less inclined to enjoy role-playing games is supported with good evidence — the claim that he was a racist is not. SoarelTheHobbit (talk) 14:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Good enough for me. I was able to verify the Dragon 29 column said nothing that could be construed as referring to real world races vs. fantasy game races. Jclemens (talk) 07:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

 * In fact, the closing paragraph of that column argues strongly against Gygax as a real-world racist: Certainly not insufficiently enlightened for late 1979. Jclemens (talk) 07:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

 * PBS article, posted by some terminally online nutcase, is factually incorrect. Very surprising. Let's please keep this cringy culture war BS off serious Wikipedia articles. 184.88.53.147 (talk) 04:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * SoarelTheHobbit, I think when you said that "The PBS article, however, cites a source that does not support this claim..." you may have missed that it also cited a BostonTheatreScene.com article which states outright that Gygax was "a biological determinist", suggesting that he maintained a philosophy involving scientific racism. (This is references on the Dungeons & Dragons controversies article.) Others have critiqued D&D because early manuals only depicted humans as being white, and people have suggested that the nonhuman races were somehow proxies for nonwhite people and humans were representing white people. There is also reference to how human races, such as "Asians", were represented pretty two-dimensionally with the use of tropes/stereotypes.
 * However, I agree that there does not seem to be sufficient basis to assert that Gary Gygax was racist. The BostonTheatreScene.com article (accessible via the Internet Archive) does not seem to be a reliable source, and it was referencing his belief that women were largely not interested in the game as opposed to discussing race. Citing the stereotyped depictions of human races and modern analyses that nonhumans were somehow unconscious representations of nonhuman races all seems like it should not be used as a basis for asserting that he was necessarily racist, and doing that would currently require WP:OR.
 * It may be that the Dungeons & Dragons controversies article should be edited to remove the reference to "biological determinism" as unreliable -- I believe I will do that. CapnPhantasm (talk) 02:46, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not entirely sure why there is push back; there's a primary source where Gygax outright states "As I have often said, I am a biological determinist". The sentence could be rephrased to include secondary sources (NPR's Code Switch discusses this; also mentioned in a 2006 The Believer article where they went & played D&D with Gygax). I also think the PBS source is fine since it is a reliable secondary source where they go on to discuss the impact of this belief in the game design; random links an editor adds doesn't necessarily indicate that's a reporter's only source. The point of reliable sources is we trust their vetting & reporting process. Sariel Xilo (talk) 03:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Self-identifying makes for a pretty clear case, at least wherein here he is talking about his perceived difference between sexes in how they enjoy games. I think to say anything more about it than that would indeed require more sourcing. BOZ (talk) 04:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think sticking to exactly the words Gygax used makes the most sense; the current prose only quotes him in part (with the full quote in the source) so I just added quotes around "biological determinist" to make it clear that was the term he used to describe himself. We could add the secondary sources after that bit and then use the primary for rest of the sentence which includes the longer direct quote. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure that would be useful, given semantic drift and how cultural norms have changed since Gygax's statements were made. That is, a correct repetition of his words from 45 years ago is not going to convey the same meaning nor place him in appropriate context. Jclemens (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The quote is from 2004 (where he reaffirms that this is long stated belief); I don't think we've had that much of a culture drift in 20 years that his statement would have an entirely different meaning then than it does now (ie. he still thought the game wasn't a "compelling activity" for women "can't play games well" decades after the development of D&D). Both PBS & NPR bring up the Gygax statement in context of the impact in the game's design which is more relevant for the D&D controversies article. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC) (Missed that I grabbed the wrong part of the quote so corrected & added a strikethrough Sariel Xilo (talk) 00:07, 21 June 2024 (UTC))
 * I just added in the sources. Sariel Xilo (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Gary Gygax


text: User talk:206.77.0.154

title: User talk:206.77.0.154