text:
Talk:Ballroom dance

Intro
Removed this paragraph from List of dances in order to make it a simple alphabetical list of dances. This text, may or may not already be in this article. That text should, or maybe needs not be incorporated into the article. The part of the text which is a list of dances remains in List of dances. The accompanying text has been removed. :Sfdan 06:05, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Modern Ballroom dances

 * Foxtrot (later developed into Quickstep which is often seen instead today)
 * Waltz (now in a couple of distict forms in their own right, notably flavors of Slow Waltz and Viennese Waltz)
 * Tango (originally but no longer considered a Latin dance in its modern form while its origin, Tango Argentino (see also Tango), has been seeing a tremendous revival in its own right.)
 * Polka (depending which part of the world one is in)

Is this page better off at Ballroom dancing?

Ballroom dancing is redirected to Ballroom dance. The question I posed in the first paragraph (14 Nov 2003), when I removed the text from another "inappropriate page" is still relevant. The question remains: Is there some text here that needs to be incorporated into the main article (i.e. Ballroom dance), or is there not? It appears to me that all (or most) of the information is already in the article, in one form or another. If somebody wants to check that out, and make a decision-- then we have answered the question. I did not want to throw out the text, without offering someone more interested in this article a chance to revive it (if needed). Sfdan 09:43, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I know that Ballroom dancing is redirected to Ballroom dance. But what I'm askign is should Ballroom dance redirect to Ballroom dancing instead. Mintguy (T) 11:08, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * No. Mikkalai 18:01, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Why not? The term "Ballroom dancing" is frequently used, whereas "Ballroom dance" isn't. Or is it? Mintguy (T) 08:47, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Like hell it most surely is. Hint: google is your best freund.Mikkalai 02:35, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"ballroom dance" 355,000 hits "ballroom dancing" 302,000 hits "ballroom dance club"  12,300 hits "ballroom dancing club" 6,100 hits "ballroom dance shoes"    27,500 "ballroom dancing shoes"  5,4600 I fail to see where people get the idea that there is no such word as "ballroom dance" (or "cha-cha-cha"). Mikkalai 02:35, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Mintguy; I think 'Ballroom Dancing' sounds better, as that is the correct social form. One could argue that a dance would be a ballroom dance, however, the accepted forms are 'ballroom' for the type of dance, like 'ballet' or 'modern', and 'Ball' for a charity dance.
 * However, I think dancesport people might prefer 'ballroom dance' as sounding more like competition. The article seems to have been expanded significantly, and eventually we may need two articles, one at 'Ballroom Dancing' and one at 'Dancesport'.  How would that suit folks?
 * Quill 22:40, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, Dancesport is already here. But there is more to competitive dancing than dancesport. The term was coined specifically in the quest towards Olympics. As a marketing trick it is used retrospectively: "The IDSF (formerly ICAD) was founded in 1957 to organize and improve DanceSport." Sheesh! Mikkalai 02:35, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * 'Ballroom Dancing' is occupation. 'Ballroom Dance' is dance category. Mikkalai 02:35, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I have to agree with Mikkalai on the Title issue- Ballroom Dancing, the act of the dance, Ballroom dance, the general category or grouping of dances. Like Modern Dance, even. On dancesport/ballroom dancing. We have both the articles. Perhaps Dancesport should be as much about the competitive aspects/run up to olympics as possible, and Ballroom dance specific information on Ballroom itself, without that focus? Lyellin 07:40, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)
 *  I am copying this section to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Dance, since the issue is generic. Let's continue the discussion there. Mikkalai 16:36, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cha-cha-cha
No, no, NO! Unless it has been termed such in competitive dancing; in which case I can only deplore their choice. I will not revert this until someone confirms whether there is an official designation of 'Cha-cha-cha', which is musically incorrect; the dance should properly be called 'Cha-cha'. Quill 23:49, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * yes, yes, YES, *Y*E*S!

E.g., from IDSF rules: ab) in the Latin American dances (Samba, Cha-Cha-Cha, Rumba, Paso doble and Jive)

Quite contrary to your opinion, 'cha-cha' came from competitive folks, kind of trade slang, parlance of "initiated". And musicaly it is still cha-cha-cha. And the author of the dance called it cha-cha-cha. Mikkalai 02:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, I know it did. Why is everybody so touchy? I know that Cha-cha is commonly called cha-cha-cha and was particularly called so in the 1950s and 1960s; I was asking if competitive folks now call it cha-cha-cha.

 * I'm referring to the count: 1-2-3-4-[and]-5-6-7-8-[and].  Cha-cha describes the split beat better; 'cha-cha-cha' suggests that the beats all have equal value, which they do not.  I was only asking for the official line and I'm not willing to fight about it.
 * Quill 00:12, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The dance count is 2-3-cha-cha-CHA-2-3-cha-cha-CHA..(or 1-2-cha-cha-cha in Cowboy Cha-cha-cha). You are probably confused with voice cues: when used to cue steps, it is pronounced cha-cha-CHAAA. You should not confuse what is written and what is heard. What is more, Cha-cha is pronounces as CHA-cha, which is totally wrong it terms of rhythm.
 * Finally, the habit of some to count 1-2-3-cha-cha-1-2-3-cha-cha destroys the structure of the basic move: chachacha is a single action, although of three steps. And couting it as cha-cha-1 asks for temptation to break its smooth flow somehow.
 * A common mistake of beginners is when the see, e.g., 4-and-5, when learning steps, they pronounce them equally-timed, and caught in surprise when they sey "Five" when the music plays the 6th beat.
 * As for who is touchy, who started shouting (no, no, NO!) and deploring here? While you describe me touchy, I was genuinely wondering why people ask questions without doing homework. We are working on encyclopedia here. This is not a leisury chat site. If one wants to contribute, this must be done with certain diligency. If one feels oneself as to decide the fate of the article (revert or not revert), please at least make sure that someone else would have hard time to find reasons to revert back. Mikkalai 01:33, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Your writing (in general) suggests that you have a first language other than English? Certainly, even people who speak the same language natively can misunderstand one another in print.  I was making a little joke--a play on words--in this case on the stress of the word:  cha-cha-CHA->no, no, NO!  I'm sorry you didn't take it as such.  No, this isn't a 'leisury chat site' (sic), I agree, but neither is it a series of unilaterally-composed author-specific articles.
 * I did not take it upon myself to revert anything; I raised an issue on the talk page. Seems reasonable enough to me, and it would be a reasonable action even if I were totally and completely wrong.
 * I was talking about the musical beats, working on the assumption that a forward and back basic in social cha-cha takes 8 beats of music. That's all.  No, I wasn't take about a voice cue.  This: What is more, Cha-cha is pronounces as CHA-cha, which is totally wrong it terms of rhythm refers to syllabic stress, if I understand your meaning; it shouldn't affect the rhythm.  As to your 'rant' (not meaning to insult--your word for it) again, I agree, but then, that's what dance teachers are for.  This: Finally, the habit of some to count 1-2-3-cha-cha-1-2-3-cha-cha destroys the structure of the basic move: chachacha is a single action, although of three steps. And couting it as cha-cha-1 asks for temptation to break its smooth flow somehow is open to interpretation; I think I can guess as to your meaning, but I'd have to talk to you in person to be sure I didn't misunderstand you.
 * Perhaps you are unaware of my contributions to the article thus far, perhaps you are merely unimpressed. 'Without doing homework'?  Hardly; I just look at it another way, and I'm sure you know that that's a large part of the social dance world.  I think my modest input reflects my knowledge and affinity for ballroom danc(e)ing ;).   Quill 22:06, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows "most common usage." So arguments from musical phrasing or what is printed in a rule book (that might be an archaic form) matters less than what people actually call it. At all of the local, national, and international competitions (and social dances) I've been to for more than four years, everyone calls it "cha-cha." This includes quite a few national champions and finalists, prominent judges, and teachers with decades of experience. (The only time I can remember it being called "Cha-cha-cha" was facetiously, enunciated very slowly with an posh, affected "Oxford accent.") If historically it was called "cha-cha-cha," if in certain parts of the world where it is danced apart from any relation to ballroom dancing or in some other context it is called "cha-cha-cha," I suggest the choice of name be decided on the basis of which sense it is being used in that particular sentence. Perhaps others who actively do ballroom dancing outside of the U.S./U.K./Canada have a different experience than I do, but if not, it is called "cha-cha" in the context of modern competitive and social dancing, and should be indicated as such in references to modern competitive or social dancing. - Do c  t  or  W  23:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC) The AP style guide says that it is Cha-Cha, and as that it is how it is most often referred to in a ballroom setting both competitively and socially, I think it would be best to keep the spelling as Cha-Cha. LeeLee553 (talk) 11:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Latin Swing
Could someone please confirm whether "Nostalgy Boogie" is spelled correctly? I did an internet search but was unable to find any mention of this dance. Also, I am not sure of the other details of the Latin Swing category. Lindy Hop is mentioned as belonging to both the Nightclub dance and Latin Swing categories-- is this true? Perhaps this section could be clarified. --Ben James Ben 19:54, 2005 Jan 2 (UTC)

 * Attempt at clarification: "Latin Swing" is a category in which one can earn degrees from Bronze to Gold Star, just as in Standard/Latin (though in Standard/Latin, the degrees go up to Brillant). It was only recently introduced; the first time courses were held for it in Austria at all was last year (i.e. from October '03 until April/May '04). I assume that this category exists in the rest of the EU just as well (since, to my knowledge, the degrees are standardized across the EU), but I'll try to confirm that once the holidays are over and my dancing school's open again.

 * I can't really confirm whether Nostalgy Boogie would be its name in English, I can only speak for the German names; it is definitely correct, though, that Lindy Hop is a Latin Swing dance. Maybe confusion arises because you assume that these categories are mutually exclusive -- I assure you, they are not. I'd never even heard of Nightclub dances before reading this WikiArticle. Nightstallion 22:41, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay. It is just that there is no word spelled "nostalgy" in the English language.  I'm not sure what English word was meant-- it could be "nostalgia" or "nostalgic". --Ben James Ben 04:27, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)

 * Oh. Ahem. *nervouscough* Right. I knew that. *whistles* -- Seriously, though: You're right, of course. I occasionally have those austriacistic moments... anyway, neither "nostalgic boogie" nor "nostalgia boogie" really sound right in English, while "swing boogie" does, so for now, I'll assume "swing boogie" is the correct english term. Nightstallion 10:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

NS,

Was I correct in assuming that Latin Swing is popularized in Europe? I didn't hear about it yet. Please add some prominent geography. Aslo, "recently" is bad word in wikipedia. Can you put the year in, please? Mikkalai 23:42, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * As I've said, I'll have to ask a few people at my dancing school for details, but what I can tell you now: I wouldn't say it's been "popularized", seeing as the category itself was only introduced last school year (i.e. October 2003). This is the second "dancing season" the category's existed. Without asking and verifying at my dancing school, I can only assure you that the category exists in Austria, and that I would assume it also does in the rest of the EU where dancing schools exist. More info after Jan 8th. Nightstallion 00:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nightstallion did not reply as promised. However, I did find site 1, site 2, and site 3: three Google-translated Austrian web pages.  They all mention the Latin Swing category and list bronze, silver, and gold courses.  The second site mentions that the category is for a "dance achievement badge" (English translation) from the Federation of  Austrian Dance Teachers (Verband der Tanzlehrer Österreichs).  I still have doubts about the officialness of the Latin Swing category.  I would like to know whether any other EU governing body has adopted this category. --Ben James Ben 03:52, 2005 Jan 25 (UTC)

 * Sorry for not replying as promised; only explanation I can give is that a.) I was rather busy with school lately, end of term and last year and all, and b.) I forgot. Sorry. I'll ask today; it is at least official in Austria, though. Sorry again for the delay. UPDATE: Latin Swing only exists in Austria; the other Tanzleistungsabzeichen have similar counterparts in other European states, but also in other states of the world in general where the World Dance Federation is at work.Nightstallion 05:13, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

medal test vs. competition amended
I changed the first paragraph under "Strictly Ballroom." Hope no one minds my changes, explained here: I felt that "commonly accepted standards" and "conventional standards" was redundant, so I eliminated the former; I changed United States to North America, since we do the same in Canada, and left out "franchise studios," since here medal exams don't have to be held by a particular club. I think that classifying medal exam takers as simply social dancers is a bit limiting - someone who is serious but in the early stages of learning is not necessarily a social dancer. So I explained the difference in ability between competitive dancers and medal takers instead. Finally, "Novice" was listed between Gold and Pre-Champ, that can't be right.24.64.223.203 22:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The change that was made was to delete the portion that stated that medal examinations were for social dancers and that competitors would not dance at their tested level. This would be rarely true, and would indicate cheating in competitive events since they are typically entered by levels passed. --Dance Business 01:55, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

 * That would depend on the system of competition. Where I dance, competition levels have nothing to do with medal tests.  In my experience, people compete at levels based on how they have done in previous competitions, and someone competing at Bronze might very well have completed a gold medal.  That's because in medal tests you are measuring up to a general standard to show you have completed the learning at a certain level; whereas in competition, your competitors have not simply passed, but mastered that level.  It's not deceptive, but perhaps you are used to a different system.24.64.223.203 02:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Dance
Portal:Dance has been started. Please have a look. --Roland2 12:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

POV too?

 * In times past, ballroom dancing was "social dancing" of privileged classes, leaving "folk dancing" for the lower classes. Today ballroom dancing is much more democratic, and the boundaries between once-polarized ballroom and folk dances become blurred.

Yeah, that's not POV at all.

How do Wikipedians not recognize this as a completely personal evaluation of modern ballroom dancing? This is not encyclopedic information.

Oh yes, this is encyclopedic. Today I dance in the same hall with a millionaire and a truck driver. It was unimaginable 100 years ago. What kind of other evaluation do you want? Horse's? Alien's? Everything is "personal evaluation". What exactly is wrong in this section? mikka (t) 10:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed, it's fine as it is. [[Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg|20px]] ナイトスタリオン ✉ 12:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I think society has changed, rather than dance forms. There is a lot of stealing between forms of "folk" or "bar" dancing and ballroom forms. I think thats the meaning, and I think it is fine as it is. Removing the tag. Dominick (TALK) 14:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to check the reference to what was said in the phrase: "Dance historians usually mark the appearance of the twist in the early 1960s as the end of social partner dancing." This may be true in some contries, but would it be a global truth? I really don´t know and do not have any clue on where to find statistics to confirm or invalidate this statement. My perception (really really personal point of view) is that this statement is not true in Brazil, where I live. I believe this may also not true in many other countries. Is this phrase really important? Shouldn´t it be removed if there is no comprovation of this? --Fredguth (talk) 21:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

cleanup
This article does not define ballroom dancing, it regularly uses 'of course' which is POV, It uses phrases like C/W bars without explaining or wikilinking them, and I have no idea what ballroom dancing is after reading the article. I don't understand it at all. Usually Wikipedia is quite good at explaining things like this for me. How do I recognise whether a dance is a ballroom dance? Is it done in ballrooms? What's a ball? This articles raises more questions than it answers. In fact, it answers very few for me. It was probably written by someone assuming the reader would know what ballroom dancing is - well, I don't! Please clarify! Gerrit CUTEDH 20:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * For "ball" see "Ball (dance)" ;-) --Roland2 16:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Explanation of revert
User:DoctorW, Category:Ballroom dance is in two categories, Category:Partner dance and Category:Social dance, both of which are in Category:Dance. Since ballroom dance is in Category:Ballroom dance, it is also in all three categories I also mentioned; that's what's meant by "overcategorization". — Nightstallion (?) 07:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Online video demo of each dance
External links to online video demos of each dance were reverted twice (but not defended here by the editor who placed them on the article page). I think the video clips, or something similar, are very helpful (especially to those completely unfamiliar), and speak to the problem that Gerrit mentioned just above. How can someone understand what dance is about from a verbal explanation alone? Other sites like ballroomdancers.com have good online videos, but too detailed (broken down into figures) for a casual reader, who needs a very general snapshot of each dance, which is what that link provided. There may be other, better links, but something similar is very important to link to in my opinion. - Do c  t  orW  23:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We have to be careful about point 1 under WP:EL and points 3, 5, and 11 under WP:EL. I'm not convinced that the link added meets all these (is Starlite TV connected with dancescientist.com? Doesn't look like it.).  I'd be OK with linking to videos from an MIT collegiate competition (see, for example), as those are ad-free and the person running the site owns the copyright or at least a license to use the videos. Thoughts? --Spangineerws  (háblame)  04:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think if one really wants to know what a dance looks like, they can easily find one via any of the numerous online video sites such as youtube. While taking advantage of the medium to show videos of each respective dance may seem like a good concept, then we embark on a slippery slope of how to portray them accurately--the links given did not portray the higher proficiencies of ballroom dancing, nor did it portray the lowest...furthermore most were American style yet did not caption them as such.  How do we provide links that accurately convey to the reader what they're actually looking at?  To me, to provide extraneous media that gives more questions than answers or worse, gives potentially misleading portrayals, is worse than providing no media at all. Tendancer 21:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Two years have passed since the discussion above. A huge number of videos have been added to the web during this time. I'm reverting the addition of an external link with videos, but I've come up with an alternative solution: linking to search results for each dance on YouTube. YouTube's own search algorithm determines which videos rise to the top of the search list, and this changes over time. This solution seems to draw on the democratic/Wikipedia/Google style approach. I believe this is a positive additional resource for this page. What do others think? I propose we keep it to the 8 most common dances I've included (it's only a sample after all); otherwise the list gets too long. - Do c  t  orW  23:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea. But I am not sure if point 1 of EL applies in case of You Tube.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It took me awhile to find appropriate searches, but take a look at the links now that they're done. None of them go to a particular YouTube video. - Do c  t  orW  23:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Ballroom Dance and Desires
I have always liked dancing and loved watching, so being able to find a website that gives a plethera of information for me and gets me excited is a plus. I am very pleased with the contributiions that people have made to make the Ballroom Dance page. I am currently taking a ballroom dance class at my school and I think it is the best time that I have had in a long time. It is a great way to get in shape and meet new people, especially if you take it by yourself. It forces you to speak to others that are also partnerless to talk. Thank you to tose who have made this site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Channy22 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Olympics?
This is on page page right now: "For the 1st time in 2008, ballroom dancing will feature in the Olympics, with Jean-Marie Leveque and Francois Beauchemin expected to challenge for gold." I can't find any reference to ballroom dancing or dancesport in the olympics at all. Is it an exhibition or demonstration sport? Is this statement correct? --68.255.76.117 (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Deleted. `'Míkka>t 19:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

What's with the picture?
Why is the picture at that "arty" angle? Panzer V Panther (talk) 18:58, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess because diagonal gives a wider field. - 7-bubёn >t 00:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Impressive; you presented a legitimate reason. Alrighty.  Panzer V Panther (talk) 05:28, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Ball vs. Ballroom dancing
It has been suggested to merge the two pages ball (dance) and ballroom dance. I think this is inadvisable because we really need a page clarifying that formal balls are occasions involving far more than dancing.Peter (talk) 15:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not been formally proposed, because there's no 'merge' flag on this article. It it were to be proposed, I would tend to support your point of view. Macdonald-ross (talk) 09:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I am against such a merge as well. -- PBS (talk) 11:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur, and as there are no supporting voices, I am going to remove the suggestion on the Ball (dance) page. Robina Fox (talk) 01:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Quick edit
Made a run-on sentence in the Victorian Era section into two differnet sentences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.189.65.146 (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Tempos
The source for the dance tempos at also lists BPM. I don't see any reason that should be excluded. Can we add it to the table? The1gofer (talk) 04:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)the1gofer

International Standard Link
In "Style Classification" article there is a link to the International Standard-article which has nothing to do with dancing. But the International Latin-article exists correctly (although merely more than a stub). Judith Sunrise (talk) 00:55, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Next time you can do it yourself. The top of the page International Standard has a link "International Standard (disambiguation)", which has a list of synonyms for which there are wikipedia articles. You may see here how to make a link to a correct synonym. -M.Altenmann >t 04:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the link in the article is now corrrect. The disambiguation page though only has one entry and therefore automatically redirects to the other one. I am curious about thy asymmetry between an existing "International Latin" article and an non-existing "International Standard" article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Judith Sunrise (talk • contribs) 14:14, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Somebody being funny?
I'm a total noob, so I'm not sure this is the right way to address this, but...

Recently, "Ballroom dance may refer, at its widest definition, to almost any type of partner dancing as recreation." near the top has been changed to "Ballroom dance may refer, at its widest definition, to almost any type of partner recreation of babies."

Also, "The term 'ballroom dancing' is derived from the word ball" at the start of the Definitions and History section was changed to "The term 'ballroom dancing' is derived from the word DOG".

I didn't notice any other problems, but I just quickly scanned the rest.

WikipediaFan2600 (talk) 19:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * thanks. it was vandalism. unfortunately not enough eyes. if you look into article history, usually users without username are vandalism suspect, and by comparing selected versions of the article before and after their edits you will see all their changes, and you can easily revert them. you may also look if these users have other destructive edits (yes, but they were reverted) you may also war the user: User talk:175.138.30.26. after 3 warnings the account usually gets blocked. see WP:VANDAL for mor. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Standard/Latin and Smooth/Rhythm
Under "Dances" the article states that International Standard and International Latin are a thing and that American Smooth and American Rhythm are a thing. Then in the next paragraph all 19 dances are listed but it is never mentioned which ones are Standard and which ones are Latin and it's never mentioned which ones are Smooth and which ones are Rhythm. Either turn these 2 lists (10+9) into 4 lists (5+5+4+5) or divide each list into two parts ((5+5)+(4+5))so it is clear where each dance belongs. Input? Do you agree? Which method is better? If nobody answers, I will change it. Judith Sunrise (talk) 13:01, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, User:Altenmann Judith Sunrise (talk) 18:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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it's not "Argentine tango"
Hello, in the "Dances" Section the article claims that "Argentine tango" is danced in both International Standard and American Smooth. Which is very wrong. Especially International Tango has almost nothing to do with Argentine Tango; and nobody who dances Internationall Standard would ever call it "Argentine tango", the just call it "Tango" or "International Tango". I propose we call it "Tango" und just point out that it developed from Argentine Tango in the description. Judith Sunrise (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * On second read, I see that the description clearly is about Argentine Tango technique. And in the classification-section below the dances are called "tango", not "Argentine tango". In short: it's a mess and I don't know how to solve it. Judith Sunrise (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ballroom dance


text:
Talk:Great Hurricane of 1780

Deaths
If you give a range of 20-30,000 killed, doesn't that imply an estimate? RedWolf 06:19, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

I have added Hurricane Katrina to the list. The death toll seems like it will be quite substantial as well. (Anonymous user) 00:09, Sep 4, 2005 (UTC)

Dates
I have some information that might extend the hurricane's timeline and location. From http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/history/

Year: 1780

Date(s): 14-19 October

Principle Affected Area(s): Northeast Florida coastal waters - not counted

Landfall Point(s): Unknown, likely an offshore event.

''Remarks: Apparently the series of legendary October hurricanes were making their presence felt along the northeast Florida coast. It is possible the strongest of the three, the 11-18 October “Great Hurricane”, may have come closer to the Florida peninsula than previously thought. Mr. Josiah Smith made the following report from St. Augustine, “Thursday 19th October. The weather as mentioned on Saturday, growing worse, by Sunday evening it came on to Rain and blow excessive hard, and till the evening of yesterday was a mere Gale at about N. N. E. by which means the Sea came in very heavily upon the front of the Town and raised the Tide several feet higher than common, and which ran through some of the Lanes up to the Second Street, above 150 feet from the bay...” '' ''South Carolina Historical Quarterly, Volume XXXIII, 1932, Josiah Smith Diary, Page 24. ''

''Close Severe erosion occurred with this event. ''

''It is possible the “Great Hurricane” came closer to the coast than previously realized and the pressure gradient may have been very tight along the coast. This report could also be attributed to “Solano’s Storm” in the later portion of the period. ''

Summary: This storm will not be counted as a hurricane, but it may be that the fringes of one, or more, of the series of “Great Hurricanes” influenced the study area.'''

Should we mention it at all in the article? There is only a few days of history on the storm, and this may be an extension of it. Hurricanehink 02:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Todo
There may not be much more information on this storm in which case it could qualify as B-class. But at least it needs references. Jdorje 07:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Jdoje, since the 7th and 8th most fatal storms are 1775, 1776, you might slightly extend your worst hurricanes table so people are better aware that bad news can come in several kinds of "triples" - next time they might leave sooner, prepare better or administrate more wisely. Specific to the GH of 1780 details, you might look into the report of bark stripping - that indicates extreme wind speeds, perhaps 200 mph, either water spouts galore or truly a great hurricane... --69.178.31.177 20:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sun Spots?
What is the information on sun spots doing in the article? I read the link and it provided only a vague hints at why the information might be relevant. Does anyone have concrete information that sunspots and intense hurricanes might be linked? If so, add the paragraph back, but it looked like vandalism to me, so I took the liberty of removing it. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië)

 * I agree that the link was bogus, but it seems fairly likely the information was accurate. If a real source can be found, the info could be added back...though obviously this article isn't the best place for it, there's so little real information on this storm that anything interesting could help. Jdorje 04:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The storm record is a fact, the sunspot record and (longer) corresponding radionucleotide depositions are facts. Globally several sets of PhD+ astrophysicists have embryonic research in this area (solar activity) for climate and weather. Frankly I have never seen a good physical/energy model of the magnetosphere and solar activity for weather/climate, among several potential fundamental areas of solar activity modelling. (Not that I have especially looked either. Also IPCC has simply noted solar activity modeling as a wistful wish and seems to have ignored even doing the fundamentals). Interesting trivia seems quite appropriate, given the physical parallels, now and then. Progressive science frequently starts with observation and curiosity followed by measurement, record keeping and analysis. --69.178.31.177 20:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * They may be facts but you still have to include sources. The link you give doesn't mention anything about the 1780 period. — jdorje (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The trivia section has two serious points about an anomalous coincidence: (1) that really bad news can come in clusters, a realization that the folks in NO did not seem to fully grasp - i.e. a hundred year storm doesn't mean you are safe for another 99 and in fact something worse might be coming (review the hurricane KIA results, 1775 through 1785, serially by year), (2) solar & (exo-)atmospheric physics for weather is not a done deal either, but this is only an interesting note of coincidence, not a claim.--Incogm 10:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

And, about a year later, I have once again removed that trivia section. Still no one has provided any source correlating (let alone suggesting a causal relationship) sunspot activity and intense or destructive hurricanes. Until such a source is provided, addition of random information about sunspots in 1780 will be treated as vandalism and reverted on the spot. —Cuiviénen 15:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello all. Upon reading this discussion board I was quite interested in the whole sun spot issue and figured I'd do some quick browsing. I am studying hurricanes at the University of Florida and trying to discover the many many variables that exist especially relating to larger time scales, like sunspot activity or the 40 and 1500 year activity cycles. Of course more time need be spent before adding something, but I came across an article that may be of interest. I don't have a clue how often these pages are checked, but I shall leave the link here. [] I can look for more sources if necessary, though this article references several others as well. I'm quite surprised that someone has not gone about attempting to recreate the conditions under which bark can be stripped from a tree, whether solely winds or by wind and rain combined, and even the water spout/tornado idea. Anyways, I hope this one link suffices to merit sunspot mention as a possibile variable in the evolution of a monster storm, especially since we have been experiencing sunspot activity, global temperature rises, increased tropical activity, and others. Such a storm may present itself again in our lifetime even.~Jeff Inxtricablfate 07:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

 * This Houston group, The Weather Research Center, seems serious enough about correlating solar cycles and sunspots to predict hurricanes, for 20 years. 1900 Galveston is still a distant memory to be reckoned with there, as well as Carla.--Incogm 07:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

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Article problems
Was just reading this article (seems a lot has been added, with some sources) and a lot does not add up. I'm gonna do some changes, add any comments here.

 * The death toll has been changed to '24000' now. Yet the most accurate source given, the NHC, still lists it as >20000 or >22000.  The source that does say 24,000 says it is incomplete (and is obviously a less reliable source than the NHC).
 * It is claimed that St Lucia had the most fatalities with 6,000. In the next paragraph it is claimed there were 9,000 fatalities on Martinique.
 * Some of the text appears to be lifted directly from the sources. In particular the paragraph about St Vincent has many phrases taken directly from the Perez source.
 * Some mention should be made of the other two deadly 1780 hurricanes - if only to avoid confusion. A link to a season article in the intro would be appropriate.
 * Deaths do not add up? 4500(barbados) + 6000(stlucia) + 9000(martinique) + 4000(french fleet) + 4000(eustacius) = 27,500.  Clearly this conflicts with the NHC number as well.  More digging into sources would be useful here - it's important not to believe every number given by every source; when sources conflict some way should be found to resolve them.  To start with a table of deaths by island would be helpful (many, many islands in the path are left out of that addition obviously).
 * Wind speed. The value of 200 mph is listed several places throughout the article.  It seems this comes entirely from the claim that bark was stripped from the trees in Barbados, and some other random guy's claim that this would take 200 mph winds to achieve.

— jdorje (talk) 06:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't be so quick to trust the NHC as canonical. The NHC is just another organisation in this case; its not like it issued advisories or produced a TCR - certainly it is not a primary source for this storm. The individual damages are from the first reference in the article. The table on the NHC site is a referenced article, for example this one.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Point taken - though the NHC is a secondary source mostly based on other secondary sources, with knowledgeable people acting as the filter. If we had primary or secondary sources listing the death toll from each island, could we add those together to get a total death toll of our own?  Or is that original research? — jdorje (talk) 19:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That's probably fine. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 19:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Why was the table moved to the left side? It looks a bit awkward now. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 20:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ho hum. I'm back and hope to be able to continue my edits tonight. However the problems with this article are not small and are not easy to fix (in fact I disagree with it being GA). The main problem is that all the sources we have are secondary and highly suspect; many of them include weasel words themselves (such as the "modern meteorologists" claim) and aren't really suitable for citing on such facts. Yet there seem to be no primary sources referenced, and given the time and the variety of locations influenced it's unlikely that English-language primary sources are available for many of the affected islands. — jdorje (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought we wanted secondary sources, given that we are a tertiary source? Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Deaths by region
My intent was to add a deaths-by-region table, that's why I moved the deadliest-hurricanes table down and to the left. This table is just the beginning though, it needs to be filled out (areas with unknown deaths can probably be left out of the main article for now) and references added. Unfortunately I'll be gone for the next week so I may not get to finish this for a while. — jdorje (talk) 05:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One possibility is the 'french fleet' is being double-counted, most likely under martinique. This could explain some of the inconsistency in adding up these values. — jdorje (talk) 05:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of the death totals are from here. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Winds
I found a link saying winds were estimated at 135 mph. Shall I add it? Here:Mitchazenia 13:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It also says a Hurricane struck England during the month of November. It doesn't sound very reliable. I'm against adding it. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd ignore the mention of the Great Storm of 1703 there. Its unfortunate but the fact of the matter is European storms are frequently known as hurricanes, the same is true of many sources. Incidentally, I have read data suggesting it was tropical in origin. That said, I would not trust that list any more than one on Wikipedia; in fact I'd trust it somewhat less as it seems to have a tendency to exaggerate. Find a real source for winds...--Nilfanion (talk) 23:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That page has no sources, and is thus useless to us. — jdorje (talk) 21:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold
Wow, what an intersting read! Another gem from the Tropical Hurricanes project. The article is very close to GA quality, however I would like to see a few minor fixes first: Thanks! --Mus Musculus (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * After reading through the article, I found myself wondering about what possible warning systems or preparatory systems may have been in place at the time, especially in heavily populated areas. I think you need to at least summarize that aspect of the topic from a good source.
 * I think you need to state in the lead exactly what data was typically recorded at the time, and state that a lot of data is missing because they didn't record it, if that's true, with a source.
 * "Exceptionally deadly"? Who said? A wee bit POV.
 * "It is believed the impetus of the hurricane..." - use active voice and specify who believes that.
 * "Late on October 10, the worst of the hurricane passed over the island, with modern meteorologists estimating winds in the hurricane reached over 200 mph." - break up into two sentences.
 * "Severe damage was reported on Dominica, Guadeloupe, Antigua, and Saint Kitts - many ships were washed ashore in Saint Kitts - though it is unknown if any died on those islands." - reword to avoid using dashes, and currently it sounds like it is unknown if the ships died.
 * "Throughout its path, the hurricane killed over 22,000 people, the deadliest hurricane in Atlantic hurricane history." - maybe reword to read, "...making it the deadliest hurricane..."
 * Check wikilinking - some terms are linked more than once, which isn't necessary.
 * Stylistic but grammatically incorrect comma usage. Remove commas:
 * "The system strengthened and increased in size as it continued westward, and first began affecting Barbados late on October 9."
 * "... causing heavy damage near the coastlines, and ultimately turned to the northeast before being last observed on October 20 southeast of Cape Race, Newfoundland."
 * "The cyclone gradually weakened as it passed to the southwest of Dominica early on October 12, and subsequently struck the island of Guadeloupe."
 * "The hurricane destroyed all but two houses at Port Castries, and throughout the island, about 6,000 perished."
 * Alright. First, there weren't any warning systems then. They didn't develop until the 1800s, as the National Weather Bureau (which ultimately became responsible for tropical cyclone warning) didn't formed until 1871. Next, I am not sure why a lot of data is missing, though it is probably due to its time period. As such, I put in that the hurricane occurred before the start of the hurricane database. Regarding wiki-linking, they're linked, at most, once per section, which I don't think is unreasonable. Other than that, I think I got everything. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 02:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much - excellent job on this article. --Mus Musculus (talk) 03:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Dominican Republic?
It is more than somewhat incorrect to refer to the modern area of the Dominican Republic as the Dominican Republic before it became independent. I am fairly certain, but not completely certain, that the entire colony was called Santo Domingo before independence. Alll incidences of "Dominican Republic" should be changed to "Santo Domingo" with a note at the first mention that today it is the Dominican Republic. —Cuiviénen 23:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Hmm, good point. Before that is done, are there any other territories with the same problem? Hurricanehink ( talk ) 23:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

 * None that I know of. Most of the others are merely names of islands; the Dominican Republic is a country. —Cuiviénen 01:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * For the future, though, other ones to watch out for elsewhere include Belize (called British Honduras before 1973), and Haiti (Saint-Domingue before 1791). —Cuiviénen 01:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Yea, I remembered about Belize. Alright, I'll change it. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 02:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

class?
Since it's estimated that the storm had winds around 200+ MPH wouldn't it count as a category 5 hurricane?--Marhawkman 18:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

 * No, because it was estimated based on impact. Its true intensity is unknown. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 19:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

But isn't category 5 anything with winds of 155 MPH or more? If it had winds anywhere near 200 it'd be a Cat 5 storm.

Could we just mark it as

Cat 5(estimated)

? Or have a foot note explaining how the intensity is an estimate?--Marhawkman 14:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

 * It's still only an estimate on the gusts. There were no readings and no official estimate on the sustained winds. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 16:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously I'm no expert but I don't see how it could have gusts up to 200 without sustained winds of 155 or more. I checked the official sources listed and none mention an estimate of sustained winds.--Marhawkman 20:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

 * This is the reference for 200 mph, and the exact words are "The wind blew so strong that it stripped the bark off the trees. Meteorologists are of the opinion that this effect is produced on wind velocities of over 200 mph." It could've been a tornado for all we know, but there were no meteorological readings, and thus it shouldn't be classified as a Category 5 hurricane (although it is certainly possible it was). Hurricanehink ( talk ) 20:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Meteorology and atmospheric sciences" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have made several minor corrections throughout the article. Altogether the article is well-written and is still in great shape after its passing in 2007. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. It would be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the inline citations and fix any dead links. Also, the quote in the impact section should have an inline citation directly after it. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 07:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Heads-up
I find a ton of info in David Longshore's 2008 "Encyclopedia of Hurricanes, Typhoons, and Cyclones", probably enough to expand the article two or three times beyond its current length. I'll work on adding the useful stuff eventually, but I was wondering if anyone thinks this has FA potential eventually? – Juliancolton  | Talk 00:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, what the?!
Since WHEN has this hurricane had 200mph, and what source is there to back it up? 72.28.15.25 (talk) 01:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's an estimate by modern meteorologists based on information from the 18th century, and the estimate is presumably not for sustained wind speeds. No-one really knows the actual intensity, although the damage caused would suggest it was in the higher category. Case-in-point, though, winds of 250 mph were recorded in Cyclone Olivia in 1996 (sources provided in relevant article), so there is no reason to think gusts of 200 mph were not possible. There are previous notes on this talk page regarding this matter as well.Trex21 (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

French warships sunk in the storm
The current article (as of 20 Oct 2015) says: among the French losses were the ships of the line Palmier, Intrépide and Magnifique and the frigate Juno

WRONG!!!! Clowes was wrong.

Palmier: sank off Bermuda 1782 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmier_%281752%29

Intrepide: burned off Cap Francois 1781 http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Intr%C3%A9pide_%2874%29

Magnifique: sank at Boston 1782 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Magnifique_%281750%29

Junon (not Juno): Only ship lost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Junon_%281778%29  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.36.123.206 (talk) 00:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Is it possible that this storm had even higher sustained winds than Hurricane Patricia? To strip bark off trees, what would the sustatined winds have to be? I'm presuming the winds may have been 220mph sustained, reached possibly 270mph in gusts. A truly powerful and colossal storm, likely a unique event. Shame these legendary storms happen so far into the past where we cannot observe them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.0.203 (talk) 02:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

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Impact section - death toll was expressed oddly
It previously read "The hurricane killed 22,000 to 27,501 people...". That's between a round number and a weirdly specific one. The first source given on this sentence ([2]) supports 22,000 as the lower level estimate, and the second source ([3]) doesn't mention 27,501 directly. As far as I can see it gives round estimates in places such as "4,000-5,000" for St Eustatius, and "24,000 (incomplete count)" for Lesser Antilles.

I see above (back in 2007!) @jdorje added the numbers from [3] up to 27,500, counting St Eustatius as 4,000 and not including (since not given in the source) any deaths from, e.g. ships destroyed at Grenada.

I suggest a sentence more like "Estimates of the death toll from the hurricane range from 22,000 to about 28,500 ..." , so I've made this change, but also left this comment in case someone can improve it more. Lessthanideal (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Great Hurricane of 1780


text:
Butoh

Butoh (舞踏) is a form of Japanese dance theatre that encompasses a diverse range of activities, techniques and motivations for dance, performance, or movement. Following World War II, butoh arose in 1959 through collaborations between its two key founders, Tatsumi Hijikata and Kazuo Ohno. The art form is known to "resist fixity" and is difficult to define; notably, founder Hijikata Tatsumi viewed the formalisation of butoh with "distress". Common features of the art form include playful and grotesque imagery, taboo topics, and extreme or absurd environments. It is traditionally performed in white body makeup with slow hyper-controlled motion. However, with time butoh groups are increasingly being formed around the world, with their various aesthetic ideals and intentions.

History
Butoh first appeared in post-World War II Japan in 1959, under the collaboration of Tatsumi Hijikata and Kazuo Ohno, "in the protective shadow of the 1950s and 1960s avant-garde". A key impetus of the art form was a reaction against the Japanese dance scene then, which Hijikata felt was overly based on imitating the West and following traditional styles like Noh. Thus, he sought to "turn away from the Western styles of dance, ballet and modern", and to create a new aesthetic that embraced the "squat, earthbound physique... and the natural movements of the common folk". This desire found form in the early movement of "ankoku butō" (暗黒舞踏). The term means "dance of darkness", and the form was built on a vocabulary of "crude physical gestures and uncouth habits... a direct assault on the refinement (miyabi) and understatement (shibui) so valued in Japanese aesthetics."

The first butoh piece, Forbidden Colors (禁色, Kinjiki) by Tatsumi Hijikata, premiered at a dance festival in 1959. It was based on the novel of the same name by Yukio Mishima. It explored the taboo of homosexuality and ended with a live chicken being held between the legs of Kazuo Ohno's son Yoshito Ohno, after which Hijikata chased Yoshito off the stage in darkness. Mainly as a result of the audience outrage over this piece, Hijikata was banned from the festival, establishing him as an iconoclast.

The earliest butoh performances were called (in English) "Dance Experience". In the early 1960s, Hijikata used the term "Ankoku-Buyou" (暗黒舞踊) to describe his dance. He later changed the word "buyo", filled with associations of Japanese classical dance, to "butoh", a long-discarded word for dance that originally meant European ballroom dancing.

In later work, Hijikata continued to subvert conventional notions of dance. Inspired by writers such as Yukio Mishima (as noted above), Comte de Lautréamont, Antonin Artaud, Jean Genet and Marquis de Sade, he delved into grotesquerie, darkness, and decay. At the same time, Hijikata explored the transmutation of the human body into other forms, such as those of animals. He also developed a poetic and surreal choreographic language, butoh-fu (舞踏譜), to help the dancer transform into other states of being.

The work developed beginning in 1960 by Kazuo Ohno with Tatsumi Hijikata was the beginning of what now is regarded as "butoh". In Nourit Masson-Sékiné and Jean Viala's book Shades of Darkness, Ohno is regarded as "the soul of butoh", while Hijikata is seen as "the architect of butoh". Hijikata and Ohno later developed their own styles of teaching. Students of each style went on to create different groups such as Sankai Juku, a Japanese dance troupe well known to fans in North America.

Students of these two artists have been known to highlight the differing orientations of their masters. While Hijikata was a fearsome technician of the nervous system influencing input strategies and artists working in groups, Ohno is thought of as a more natural, individual, and nurturing figure who influenced solo artists.

Starting in the early 1980s, butoh experienced a renaissance as butoh groups began performing outside Japan for the first time; at this time the style was marked by "full body paint (white or dark or gold), near or complete nudity, shaved heads, grotesque costumes, clawed hands, rolled-up eyes and mouths opened in silent screams." Sankai Juku was a touring butoh group; during one performance by Sankai Juku, in which the performers hung upside down from ropes from a tall building in Seattle, one of the ropes broke, resulting in the death of a performer. The footage was played on national news, and butoh became more widely known in America through the tragedy. A PBS documentary of a butoh performance in a cave without an audience further broadened awareness of butoh in America.

In the early 1990s, Koichi Tamano performed atop the giant drum of San Francisco Taiko Dojo inside Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, in an international religious celebration.

There is a theatre in Kyoto, Japan, called the Kyoto Butoh-kan, which attempts to be dedicated to regular professional butoh performances.

Debate
There is much discussion about who should receive the credit for creating butoh. As artists worked to create new art in all disciplines after World War II, Japanese artists and thinkers emerged from economic and social challenges that produced an energy and renewal of artists, dancers, painters, musicians, writers, and all other artists.

A number of people with few formal connections to Hijikata began to call their own idiosyncratic dance "butoh". Among these are Iwana Masaki (岩名雅紀), and Teru Goi. Although all manner of systematic thinking about butoh dance can be found, perhaps Iwana Masaki most accurately sums up the variety of butoh styles:

While 'Ankoku Butoh' can be said to have possessed a very precise method and philosophy (perhaps it could be called 'inherited butoh'), I regard present-day butoh as a 'tendency' that depends not only on Hijikata's philosophical legacy but also on the development of new and diverse modes of expression.

The 'tendency' that I speak of involved extricating the pure life which is dormant in our bodies.

Hijikata is often quoted saying what opposition he had to a codified dance: "Since I believe neither in a dance teaching method nor in controlling movement, I do not teach in this manner." However, in the pursuit and development of his own work, it is only natural that a "Hijikata" style of working and, therefore, a "method" emerged. Both Mikami Kayo and Maro Akaji have stated that Hijikata exhorted his disciples not to imitate his own dance when they left to create their own butoh dance groups. If this is the case, then his words make sense: There are as many types of butoh as there are butoh choreographers.

New Butoh
In 2000 Sayoko Onishi established in Palermo, Italy where she founded the International Butoh Academy at the presence of master and butoh founder Yoshito Ohno. Sayoko Onishi and Yoshito Ohno are credited as being the first butoh choreographers to speak about New Butoh style. The academy name was changed to New Butoh School in 2007. In 2018 the New Butoh School established in Ruvo di Puglia, Italy.

Butoh exercises
Most butoh exercises use image work to varying degrees: from the razorblades and insects of Ankoku Butoh, to Dairakudakan's threads and water jets, to Seiryukai's rod in the body. There is a general trend toward the body as "being moved", from an internal or external source, rather than consciously moving a body part. A certain element of "control vs. uncontrol" is present through many of the exercises.

Conventional butoh exercises sometimes cause great duress or pain but, as Kurihara points out, pain, starvation, and sleep deprivation were all part of life under Hijikata's method, which may have helped the dancers access a movement space where the movement cues had terrific power. It is also worth noting that Hijikata's movement cues are, in general, much more visceral and complicated than anything else since.

Most exercises from Japan (with the exception of much of Ohno Kazuo's work) have specific body shapes or general postures assigned to them, while almost none of the exercises from Western butoh dancers have specific shapes. This seems to point to a general trend in the West that butoh is not seen as specific movement cues with shapes assigned to them such as Ankoku Butoh or Dairakudakan's technique work, but rather that butoh is a certain state of mind or feeling that influences the body directly or indirectly.

Hijikata did in fact stress feeling through form in his dance, saying, "Life catches up with form," which in no way suggests that his dance was mere form. Ohno, though, comes from the other direction: "Form comes of itself, only insofar as there is a spiritual content to begin with."

The trend toward form is apparent in several Japanese dance groups, who recycle Hijikata's shapes and present butoh that is only body-shapes and choreography which would lead butoh closer to contemporary dance or performance art than anything else. A good example of this is Torifune Butoh-sha's recent works.

Iwana Masaki, a butoh dancer whose work shies away from all elements of choreography, states:

"I have never heard of a butoh dancer entering a competition. Every butoh performance itself is an ultimate expression; there are not and cannot be second or third places. If butoh dancers were content with less than the ultimate, they would not be actually dancing butoh, for real butoh, like real life itself, cannot be given rankings."

Defining butoh
Critic Mark Holborn has written that butoh is defined by its very evasion of definition. The Kyoto Journal variably categorizes butoh as dance, theater, "kitchen," or "seditious act." The San Francisco Examiner describes butoh as "unclassifiable". The SF Weekly article "The Bizarre World of Butoh" was about former sushi restaurant Country Station, in which Koichi Tamano was "chef" and Hiroko Tamano "manager". The article begins, "There's a dirty corner of Mission Street, where a sushi restaurant called Country Station shares space with hoodlums and homeless drunks, a restaurant so camouflaged by dark and filth it easily escapes notice. But when the restaurant is full and bustling, there is a kind of theater that happens inside…" Butoh frequently occurs in areas of extremes of the human condition, such as skid rows, or extreme physical environments, such as a cave with no audience, remote Japanese cemetery, or hanging by ropes from a skyscraper in front of the Washington Monument.

Hiroko Tamano considers modeling for artists to be butoh, in which she poses in "impossible" positions held for hours, which she calls "really slow Butoh". The Tamano's home seconds as a "dance" studio, with any room or portion of yard potentially used. When a completely new student arrived for a workshop in 1989 and found a chaotic simultaneous photo shoot, dress rehearsal for a performance at Berkeley's Zellerbach Hall, workshop, costume making session, lunch, chat, and newspaper interview, all "choreographed" into one event by Tamano, she ordered the student, in broken English, "Do interview." The new student was interviewed, without informing the reporter that the student had no knowledge what butoh was. The improvised information was published, "defining" butoh for the area public. Tamano then informed the student that the interview itself was butoh, and that was the lesson. Such "seditious acts," or pranks in the context of chaos, are butoh.

While many approaches to defining butoh—as with any performative tradition—will focus on formalism or semantic layers, another approach is to focus on physical technique. While butoh does not have a codified classical technique rigidly adhered to within an authoritative controlled lineage, Hijikata Tatsumi did have a substantive methodical body of movement techniques called Butoh Fu. Butoh Fu can be described as a series of cues largely based on incorporating visualizations that directly affect the nervous system, producing qualities of movement that are then used to construct the form and expression of the dance. This mode of engaging the nervous system directly has much in common with other mimetic techniques to be found in the history of dance, such as Lecoq's range of nervous system qualities, Decroux's rhythm and density within movement, and Zeami Motokiyo's qualitative descriptions for character types.

Influence
Teachers influenced by more Hijikata style approaches tend to use highly elaborate visualizations that can be highly mimetic, theatrical, and expressive. Teachers of this style include Waguri, Yumiko Yoshioka, Minako Seki and Koichi and Hiroko Tamano, founders of Harupin-Ha Butoh Dance Company.

There have been many unique groups and performance companies influenced by the movements created by Hijikata and Ohno, ranging from the highly minimalist of Sankai Juku to very theatrically explosive and carnivalesque performance of groups like Dairakudakan.

International
Many Nikkei (or members of the Japanese diaspora), such as Japanese Canadians Jay Hirabayashi of Kokoro Dance, Denise Fujiwara, incorporate butoh in their dance or have launched butoh dance troupes.

More notable European practitioners, who have worked with butoh and avoided the stereotyped 'butoh' languages which some European practitioners tend to adopt, take their work out of the sometimes closed world of 'touring butoh' and into the international dance and theatre scenes include SU-EN Butoh Company (Sweden), Marie-Gabrielle Rotie, Kitt Johnson (Denmark), Vangeline (France), and Katharina Vogel (Switzerland). Such practitioners in Europe aim to go back to the original aims of Hijikata and Ohno and go beyond the tendency to imitate a ' master' and instead search within their own bodies and histories for 'the body that has not been robbed' (Hijikata).

LEIMAY (Brooklyn) emerged 1996-2005 from the creative work of Shige Moriya, Ximena Garnica, Juan Merchan, and Zachary Model at the space known as CAVE. LEIMAY has organized and run diverse programs including, the NY Butoh Kan Training Initiative which later became the NY Butoh Festival; Vietnamese Artist in Residency; NY Butoh Kan Training Initiative which turned into the NY Butoh Kan Teaching Residency and now is called LEIMAY Ludus Training). A key element of LEIMAY's work has become transformation of specific spaces. In this way, the space – at times a body, environment or object – and the body – at times dancer, actor, performer or object – are fundamental to LEIMAY's work.

Eseohe Arhebamen, a princess of the Kingdom of Ugu and royal descendant of the Benin Empire, is the first indigenous and native-born African butoh performer. She invented a style called "Butoh-vocal theatre" which incorporates singing, talking, mudras, sign language, spoken word, and experimental vocalizations with butoh after the traditional dance styles of the Edo people of West Africa. She is also known as Edoheart.

COLLAPSINGsilence Performance Troupe (San Francisco) was established and co-founded by Indra Lowenstein and Terrance Graven in 1992 and was active until 2001. They were a movement-based troupe that incorporated butoh, shibari, ecstatic trance states, and Odissi. They designed all of their costumes, props, puppets, and site-specific installations, while collaborating with live musicians such as Sharkbait, Hollow Earth, Haunted by Waters, and Mandible Chatter. In 1996, they were featured at The International Performance Art Festival and also performed at Asian American Dance Performances, San Francisco Butoh Festival, Theatre of Yugen, The Los Angeles County Exposition (L.A.C.E.), Stanford University, Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, the beginning years at Burning Man, and various other venues creating multi-media dance performances.

In 1992, Bob DeNatale founded the Flesh & Blood Mystery Theater to spread the art of butoh. Performing throughout the United States, Flesh & Blood Mystery Theater was a regular participant in the San Francisco Butoh Festival of which DeNatale was an Associate Producer. DeNatale's other butoh credits include performing in the film Oakland Underground (2006) and touring Germany and Poland with Ex…it! ' 99 International Dance Festival.

In 2018, Patruni Sastry redesigned Butoh Natyam with the blend of Indian classical dance Bharatanayam with the pedagogy of butoh and presented/performed across 200 shows in India. in later years Patruni also used Butoh as a part of their drag practice.

Music videos
Music videos featuring Butoh or butoh-style performance

featuring Marie-Gabrielle Rotie
 * Lebanon Hanover 'Come Kali Come'.
 * Madonna's "Nothing Really Matters"
 * Kent's "Musik non stop"
 * The Finnish band Black Crucifixion's 2013 "Millions of Twigs Guide Your Way Through the Forest" features Ken Mai.
 * Machine Head's song "Catharsis".
 * Rammstein's "Mein Teil" features the band member Oliver Riedel performance
 * Matt Elliott's song "Something About Ghosts" features Gyohei Zaitsu
 * Dir En Grey's 2003 "Obscure" features women dressed in Geisha attire with blackened teeth, wearing butoh-style face paint and performing bodily movements/facial expressions similar to those found in butoh.
 * Foals' "Inhaler" by director Dave Ma with movement choreography by Marie-Gabrielle Rotie
 * The Weeknd's "Belong to the World"

Other popular culture
Robert Eggers The Northman2022 choreography by Marie-Gabrielle Rotie

Robert Eggers Nosferatu 2025 movement choreography Marie-Gabrielle Rotie Hal Hartley's film Flirt (1995) featuring performance choreographed by Yoshito Ohno

Ron Fricke's documentary film Baraka (1992) features scenes of butoh performance.

In the late 1960s, exploitation film director Teruo Ishii hired Hijikata to play the role of a Doctor Moreau-like reclusive mad scientist in his film horror movie Horrors of Malformed Men. The role was mostly performed as dance. The film has remained largely unseen in Japan for forty years because it was viewed as insensitive to the handicapped.

In Bust A Groove 2, a video game released for the PlayStation in 2000, the dance moves of the hidden boss character Pander are based on Butoh.

The influence of Butoh has also been felt heavily in the J-Horror movie genre, forming the basis for the appearance of the ghosts in seminal J-Horror Ju-on: The Grudge.

Kiyoshi Kurosawa used butoh movement for actors in Kairo (2001).

Doris Dörrie's film Cherry Blossoms(2008), in which a Bavarian widower embarks on a journey to Japan to grieve for his wife and develop an understanding of butoh style performance.

Sopor Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows, the musical project of Anna-Varney Cantodea.

Richard Armitage cited the dance form as an inspiration for his animalistic portrayal of the villain Francis Dolarhyde (the "Red Dragon") in the third season of Hannibal.

The Brisbane-based artist, KETTLE, attributes their performance art pieces, Otherwise (2001) and The Australian National Anthem (2001), to Butoh.

Folk horror film The Witch (2015), Butoh dancers played the coven of witches featured in the climax of the film.

In 2019, Japanese-American indie rock musician Mitski began incorporating Butoh-inspired choreography into her live performances, including "highly stylized, sometimes unsettling gestures," developed with performance artist and movement coach Monica Mirabile.

Butoh dance is a recurring theme in the 2020 Taiwanese movie, Wrath of Desire.

In season 16 of RuPaul's Drag Race, the contestant Nymphia Wind, from Taiwan, created and wore an outfit inspired by Butoh for the Dancing Queen runway on episode 8 "Snatch Game".

Japanese

 * Juju Alishina
 * Ushio Amagatsu
 * Carlotta Ikeda
 * Eiko & Koma
 * Tadashi Endo
 * Maureen Fleming
 * Mushimaru Fujieda
 * Anzu Furukawa
 * GooSayTen
 * Tatsumi Hijikata
 * Mitsutaka Ishii
 * Masaki Iwana
 * Sankai Juku
 * Katsura Kan
 * Akira Kasai
 * Akaji Maro
 * Ko Murobushi
 * Nakajima Natsu
 * Kazuo Ohno
 * Yoshito Ohno
 * Mitsuyo Uesugi
 * Minoru Hideshima
 * Atsushi Takenouchi
 * Hal Tanaka
 * Seiji Tanaka
 * Bishop Yamada
 * MUTSUMINEIRO

Non-Japanese

 * [Marie-Gabrielle Rotie]
 * Yumino Seki
 * Katarina Vogel
 * Edoheart
 * Maureen Fleming
 * Grigory Glazunov
 * Andrada Jichici
 * Patruni Sastry
 * Adam Koan
 * Maria Lappa
 * Rhizome Lee
 * Natalia Zhestovskaya

title: Butoh


text:
Talk:Butoh

Initial comments
Removed this paragraph from List of dances in order to make that a simple alphabetical list of dances. This text directly lifted from the other article and is the basis for this new article. The part of the text which is a list of dances remains in List of dances. The accompanying text has been removed. :Sfdan 06:05, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is a clean introduction, but there isn't any-thing here about the more recent and current status of butoh. A mention of butoh in the U.S. and Germany is needed. I'll try to add at least some links. We don't list a Japanese link. I can't read Japanese, but when I entered butoh, I got this page, http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BF%E8%B5%A4%E5%85%90, which might or might not be a Butoh entry. Kdammers 2 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

OK, possible outline for stuff to include in the article: influence of Ausdrucktanz on dance in Japan from the 1920`s onwards. Origin of "Ankoku Butoh"-meaning of the kanji for butoh (not just that it means "stomping dance.") How was the name Ankoku Butoh created. Different performers and groups in Butoh and their influence: Dairakudakan, Sankaijuku, Akira Kasai, Kazio Ohno, Iwana Masaki, Min Tanaka etc... Description of (diverse)butoh techniques: use of imagery, (how it compares with phantomime), philosophy, like Kazuo Ohnos motivation for dancing (dead spirits, La Argentina)

I think there is a wide range of ideas and techniques, it might be impossible to describe them all. So perhaps its worth finding similarities between them all. ONe thing I notice is the idea of using something outside the performer to move him/herself. For exmple "you`re a piece of cloth, moved by the wind" or "when you walk, a person special to you is standing behind you." Its a tough topic I find, and I would like to initiate a dialogue with someone about this stuff when possible.Eggnogg 18:08 04 October.

Did some spelling and grammar cleaning in the "Teachers who have spent time with..." paragraph. Also did one content edit: removed the first person editorializing ["I'm going out on a limb here..."]. In the hands of a New Journalist like Thompson, Capote or Wolfe, the first person can be useful. Here it's a Very Bad Idea (tm) which would erode the reader's confidence in the author's ability to be authoritative.

 * I'm not fond of the current structure. It rambles and is largely anecdotal. I'm a Butoh dancer. I've been taught by the Tamanos, by Katsura Kan and some western folks who have studied in Japan and were members of Ink Boat. My history at this point is pretty limited. I'll try to bone up on it before I get all posty here.

I think the info for Ohno and Hijikata should be folded back into the main article as they more pertain to the development and practice of Butoh. The pages for the two originators should contain biographical information and what not. The history section is what I'm most concerned about. It's overly focused on Hijikata, lacks chronology and as I said, is largely anecdotal. The discussion about the first Butoh performance is interesting and relevant but only so far as Butoh is contextualized historically with in Japanese dance. We need to clarify why and how Hijikata and Ohno began to develop Butoh and how that lead up to Kinjinki into Ankoku Buyo and into Ankoku Butoh. Once that has been established I think Kinjinki is important enough to warrant its own section. Perhaps not. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to put the content but that is what I think is lacking. It was what I went looking for when I went to the article. I assume others will want this information as well. I took the liberty to strip out some of what I thought was popular culture stuff out of the history stuff. sugarcoma 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

Considering folding in the following:

'''Hijikata was dissatisfied with the Japanese modern dance scene, feeling that it was merely a copy of the work being done in the West. He wanted to find a form of expression that was purely Japanese, and one that allowed the body to "speak" for itself, thru unconscious improvised movement. His first experiments were called Ankoku Butoh, or the Dance of Darkness. This darkness referred to the area of what was unknown to man, either within himself or in his surroundings. His butoh sought to tap the long dormant genetic forces that lay hidden in the shrinking consciousness of modern man.''

''His first public performances were wild, primal and sexually explicit. They quite naturally shocked the conservative Japanese dance community, and he was banned from appearing at future organized events. This was the spark that gave birth to butoh. Many of Japan's dancers, poets, visual artists and theatre performers rallied around this exciting and dangerous new art form. Underground performances became increasingly popular, and soon there were numerous groups being formed in the Tokyo area. Musicians, photographers and writers including Japan's leading novelist, Yukio Mishima joined Hijikata to collaborate on spectacular underground performances.''

''Butoh loosely translated means stomp dance, or earth dance. Hijikata believed that by distorting the body, and by moving slowly on bent legs he could get away from the traditional idea of the beautiful body, and return to a more organic natural beauty. The beauty of an old woman bent against a sharp wind, as she struggles home with a basket of rice on her back. Or the beauty of a lone child splashing about in a mud puddle - this was the natural movement Hijikata wanted to explore. Hijikata grew up in the harsh climate of Northern Japan in an area known as Tohoku. The grown-ups he watched worked long hours in the rice fields, and as a result, their bodies were often bent and twisted from the ravages of the physical labor. These were the bodies that resonated with Hijikata. Not the "perfect" upright bodies of western dance, or the consciously controlled movements of Noh and Kabuki. He sought a truthful, ritualistic and primal earthdance. One that allowed the performer to make discoveries as she/he created/was created by the dance.''

I got this from Don McLeon's Butoh page who I am e-mailing for permission and citations. sugarcoma 2:15pm, Dec 2st 2008 (EST)

Origins of Butoh
I read somewhere that Butoh emerged as a reaction to the horror experienced by the Japanese at the Atomic Bomb in 1945. Hence the imagery associated with death, decay, ghosts and subsequent iconoclasm as a reaction to fear.. But I can't remember where I read it and I doubt if I'd be allowed to paraphrase something someone else published. -- Jasna 11:13pm, Jan 16th 2005. (EST)

Many dance critics prefer connecting Butoh with the Atomic bomb, but as far as I have studied Hijikata's books, there were no descriptions found about the atomic bombs. His writings show, I believe, that he was not a political person but a dominating dancer and artist talented also in writing. There is only one thing that shows a relationship of Butoh and atomic bombs: A movie titled "Atomic bomb and navel" directed by a Japanese photographer Eiko Hosoe who published "Kamaitachi" photographic album of Hijikata. But, the content of the movie is very funny although the bomb exploded at the last scene. In the World War II, Tokyo was bombed out in an air-raid by three hundreds twenty five B29-bombers, and about 100,000 people were burned to death one night. It well matches the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Akiko Motofuji, Hijikata's wife who died in 2003, told me what happened in Tokyo at the night, but she did not mention to the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is not the Atomic bomb for Japanese citizens, but they are (atomic) bombs. When dance critics use the phrase "the Atomic bomb" describing something about Butoh, it is, I believe, surely an easy rhetorical expression that is nothing to do with Butoh itself. Butoh came from the hardship and poverty that Hijikata and the people of the rustic northeast prefectures had suffered historically. See ganimata or bandy-leg, and crooked back. (T.K.,Sapporo)
 * Butoh has nothing to do with Hiroshima, that's an American press thing. Many newspaper stories on Butoh are themselves Butoh, and are to be taken as such.  See the "Defining Butoh" section for an example from 1989.  I added some stuff to The Rite of Spring related to bandy legged crookedness and Njinsky. EricDiesel (talk) 01:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

wik link unreadable
The fourth Wik in another language comes up as three squares on my screen. When I click on it, I get a page of squares. I assume the link is to Japanese, but could some-one change this to a more universally viewable link, please. Deutsch Français עברית 日本語 Русский

External links section
Today I deleted all of the external links. I went through every one, and found most to be simply links to butoh company/dancer sites. Wikipedia is not for self-promotion. Please read WP:EL if you have not already: one key admonition is that external links should be kept to a minimum. Including a link to every butoh company's site would go against this (consider if there were links to every guitarist or ballet company's website). A number of other links were dead, or indicated that they had not been updated in several years, and/or had minimal useful content. Also, keep this in mind from WP:EL: "If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." Doctormatt 19:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, would be a great link to have, but it says itself that it hasn't been updated in years, so it really isn't good. Can anyone suggest a replacement, a site that has lots of links to other butoh sites? Such a site could be a great anchor for a solid external links section. Doctormatt 07:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I started going through the links You cut. I don't follow Your reasoning. The first one is to a Wik site; McLeod is a history of Butoh; then there is one with lots of links to other butoh sites - just what You say You are looking for. Other links are to sites with good pics. I don't want to get into an editing war, so I'm not re-adding any, but I wish You'd re-consider. Kdammers 19:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent - someone is discussing this article with me! Thanks. So, my reasoning is like this: links to butoh companies and artists are generally inappropriate: we would not have links to every ballet company at ballet, for instance.  I don't know which one you mean has lots of links, but if you mean butoh.net it is clearly years out of date, so I don't think it should be included.  What would be awesome is for those who wish to add links to their own company sites to contribute images and information to the article.  To quote myself, and WP:EL again: "If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." The McLeod link contains information that could be added here: note, from WP:EL, links normally to be avoided include "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article."  I think it is much more important that this article gets some references rather than more external links: this seems to be the philosophy suggested by WP:EL. For instance, we could add information from the McLeod article and have a link to the site in a reference.  That would be great. Cheers, Doctormatt 20:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I inserted SU-EN Butoh company as a link in response to what I felt was a lack of info about 'international' practitioners of butoh. In the 'international' section, only North American companies are mentioned. The three butoh companies/practioners mentioned do not adequately represent the range of butoh as it is presently practiced outside of Japan. I put in a European company in an attempt to help amend that situation. (Maybe it wasn't the best way of accomplishing the task, but I'm new at this game) At present, it might even be good to eliminate all but the opening sentence in the 'international' section, as the section is simply too brief to state anything substantial.

Furthermore, I agree with Kdammers. The butoh.net link is worth keeping. From my experience, butoh dancers are not that concerned about up-to-date links, being a bit adverse to technologies that intrude upon the experience of the dancer's body. At present, I think the butoh.net link is the best thing the world of butoh can offer, at least in English. Anyways, butoh is pretty obscure. It's not going to have a plethora of online histories or functioning companies. 00000K00000 14:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for you comments. Yes, it seems like butoh.net is as good as we've got for now: I'll put that back in, and take a look at the "international" section.  Cheers, Doctormatt 18:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a link to Diego Pinon as he represents some pretty specific and international Butoh types. I also added Mizu's dance theater in Portland, Oregon as it seemed consistent with Cave and Vangeline. Feel free to remove if needed. SugarComa 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

I would like to offer the following external link in case others feel it would benefit the article. I cannot add it myself since it is a site that I maintain. The page is a YouTube playlist which includes video of numerous butoh and butoh-related performances by a variety of different dancers. Most of the performances were recorded in Seattle from about 2006 - present. http://www.youtube.com/user/celadonmusic#grid/user/632FAF7ED04681EB I recorded and posted all of the video (with the permission of the performers) so there are no copyright violations to be concerned about. thanks Ericmaia (talk) 01:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"Handicapped" Butoh
The following comment was on the Hijikata talk page. I am moving it here because it leads to other stuff-
 * Some may find it of interest that, in the late 1960s, japanese horror/exploitation director Teruo Ishii hired Hijikata to create the role of a Moreau-like hermited mad scientist in the film "Horrors of Malformed Men," a role that is mostly performed as dance. The film has remained largely unseen in Japan for forty years because it was viewed as insensitive to the handicapped. see: http://www.midnighteye.com/reviews/horrmalf.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bustter (talk • contribs) 12:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tatsumi_Hijikata"
 * At the Hijikata 80th birthday party in SF in summer of 2008, one of the most applauded dancers was a parapalegic in a wheelchair. EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In Moshe Efrati's dance company, half the dancers are deaf. EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Christina is a dead link. Anyone know how to get to her talk page?  Is this the Christina at the Hijikata 80th BD party? EricDiesel (talk) 01:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Tamano Students
I read a dance magazine in the early 90's that said Hiroko Tamano was among the living dancers with the most students, or students students. Does anyone know the citation? EricDiesel (talk) 02:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a film with Michael Blackwood in 1990 BUTOH: BODY ON THE EDGE OF CRISIS. it would be a good link in this article. I also wrote for dance magazine about butoh and I think you are referring to an article I wrote about the butoh festival in Japan in 1989, or so. contact me: bonnie@gohproductions.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.251.152 (talk) 15:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Tamano
Personally, I'd remove the Tamano section or clarify why he is important to Butoh. If we are going to include Tamano we should include other 2nd generation dancers and teachers as well. I suggest a list of notables with links to stub pages about them. sugarcoma 11:56pm, Dec 1st 2008 (EST)

status in Japan
"Accepted as a performance art overseas, it remains fairly unknown in Japan" has been on this site for some time, yet the requested citation hasn't come. Can some-one who knows Japanese or the Japanese arts scene verify or delete this, please. Kdammers (talk) 04:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No one has responded. I just checked the site that lists "all" butoh groups around the world.  It has more groups (22) listed for Japan than for any other country.  Isn't it time we remove this unsupported statement?Kdammers (talk) 08:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Japanese majority have no interest in "butoh" and consider it a disgrace, but minor nuisance, if they admit to knowing about it at all. Only illiterate foreigners would fall for this crap as they are the main audience for this amateurish expression with the big name of "butoh" like its some kind of mysterious ancient rite. This article should be about one paragraph long.  That's all "butoh" deserves.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.46.2 (talk) 05:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Introduction to America
"A PBS documentary of a butoh performance in a cave with no audience further broadened knowledge in America." This is unsourced and vague. What documentary? When was it shown? Winter Maiden (talk) 15:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Source check

 * "Butoh frequently occurs in areas of extremes of the human condition, such as skid rows, or extreme physical environments, such as a cave with no audience, remote Japanese cemetery, or hanging by ropes from a skyscraper in front of the Washington Monument."

Could someone who has or has access to this book check this quote? The reason I ask is that the last part of the sentence is somewhat bizarre and, more importantly, technically impossible. There is not and has never been any "skyscraper in front of the Washington Monument" from which to hang. The National Mall (on which the Monument sits) has no skyscrapers on or near it, and in fact, under limits imposed by by Acts of Congress, no building taller than the Monument exists within the District (certainly none that meet the definition of skyscraper).  General Ization  Talk   03:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Butoh