text:
Talk:Charles VII of France

The sword that used in the crowning of Charles VII?
This ceremony sword was used on sunday, 17 July, 1429, where Charles VII was solemnly crowned. It should be placed here. This is 100% authentic image of the sword.

black and white

color

Charles' position after 1422?
The article says:

Under the Treaty, King Henry of England ruled Northern France through a regent in Normandy and southern France by the Dauphin Charles from his fortified castle at Chinon.

I'm not really sure how to parse this sentence. Did the treaty see Charles ruling southern France in the name of his nephew as a sort of viceroy? Or did he rule southern France by virtue of his position there, as an explicit enemy of the English? --Jfruh 03:06, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capetitian Dynasty
and in such bold type, too. I thought capetitian was an auburn hair color with reddish glints... --Wetman 04:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Marie de France?
The historical writer Marie de France, as I know it, lived in the 12th century. Although there might have been another woman by the same name as Charles's daughter in the 15th century, the wiki link should not refer to an incorrect article as it does at this time. As I have come late to the discussion and editing of this page, I leave it to you the make the required modification for that matter. Thank you.

Scottish involvement
Mention is made above of the "British occupation", and in the article itself about the inability of the French to field an army between 1422 and 1429. It amazes me that somehow the Scottish involvement in this war is completely forgotten by the French. The English, not the British, occupied Normandy etc. I am not just a chippy jock whining about the conflation of the terms English and British, because to do so actually completely misrepresents the situation. The English were prevented from effectively extending their influence south of the Loire between 1422 and 1429 by the Scottish armies put into the field by James I. c.f. the Battles of Bauge, Verneuil, Cravant etc. - all conflicts between English armies and French armies primarily composed of Scottish forces sent to assist France by Scotland under the terms of their military alliance. Between 1419 and 1425 17,000 Scots embarked for France, and another 6,000 in 1428 (under the terms of the treaty of Perth) to fight against the English, inflicting their first defeat in the war at Bauge in a conflict that prevented the English penetrating south of the Loire to Chinon. The Scottish 4th Earl of Douglas was made Lieutenant-General of the French forces and made Duke of Touraine. The Earl of Buchan was made constable of France. Sir John Crichton was made governor of Chatillon. Charles VII married his son and heir off to the daughter of the king of Scots. One of the six bishop attending his coronation was Scottish, as was his bodyguard. Jeanne d'Arc's escort to Orleans was composed entirely of Scottish forces. Even her banner had been made by a Scot, Hamish Powers, in Tours, in gratitude for which Jeanne persuaded the dignitaries of Tours to provide his daughter's dowry. As a result of the debt the French owed the Scots for giving them time to recover Scots merchants were given preferential terms in Bordeaux.

None of this is controversial or a matter of interpretation, it is all amply attested by primary historical record and is not disputed by serious historians - so why is it written out of history, and why is the memory of the Scots who fought to save France from English domination in the 15th century routinely insulted by people like the authors of this article by their omissions and misrepresentations?!

Maybe because you're not looking at the good page, if you have time, have a look on the different battles of this era, you will see that the Scots involvement in the war is not forgotten. But in a different point of view, you say that Scots fought to save France ??? Could you not say they fought english to weak them, as french did during the American Independence War in the 18th century ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.59.234 (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
I'm wondering if the statement:

"Although his leadership was sometimes marked by indecisiveness, hardly any other leader left a nation so much better improved than when he came on the scene."

Is neutral? It doesn't strike me as neutral at all. LouisXI 04:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Sounds pretty basic statement of fact to me (albeit poorly written): he began with his kingdom largely conquered and in crisis, he ended with a united nation, free of English domination, and almost entirely free of foreign encroachment. An improvement, no? Michael Sanders 14:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Hmm, I do think it needs to be rewritten, so it seems a tad bit more neutral. It is a true statement, but, as stated, it's not written well at all.LouisXI 06:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Coinage
Here's a nice coin of Charles VII, feel free to insert it in the article. Cheers PHG (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Reign
Historian now recognize Charles VII's reign as begining in 1422. GoodDay (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * .Many Kings were accused of being bastards, including Edward IV. Luckily for the French Jeanne d'Arc defeated the English, otherwise Margaret of Anjou would have ended up becoming the de facto ruler of both England and France. High jinks in the Middle Ages with her running the show in both places!--jeanne (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

- How is that lucky? The rulership of France actually made little difference to the actual French people in the long run, especially as the English king was a Frencg lord in his own right and the Dauphin was initially unpopular (as most of his allies were peadophiles, nutcases/liars and murderers I am not surprised) the main problem was the war. The Mummy (talk) 02:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Henry IV the Usurper

 * In point of fact, the Yorkists later disputed Henry VI's right to the English throne as his grandfather Henry IV, after deposing the legitimate King Richard II, ascended the throne bypassing Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March, who as a descendant of Lionel, Duke of Clarence (second son of Edward III), certainly came before Henry IV, who was the son of John of Gaunt (the third son of Edward III). Edmund was actually the heir presumptive to the throne. The Lancastrians wanted to apply the Salic Law to exclude the Mortimers, who were descended from Lionel's daughter, Philippa, Countess of Ulster-in her lifetime the heiress presumptive to the throne, yet conveniently ignore it in order to claim the throne of France! Sorry, but that dog just won't bark!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Henry VI was eventually given the boot, as 'King of England'. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyroad, it was Margaret of Anjou who was de facto ruler, seeing as Henry suffered from the same malady as his maternal grandfather.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The colors of France ?

 * 1) ***In his adolescent years, Charles was noted for his bravery and style of leadership: at one point after becoming Dauphin, he led an army against the English, dressed in the red, white and blue that represented France;*** In which text is it written that in the early 15th century *red white & blue* were the colors of France?
 * 2) ***Instead, he remained in southern France, where he was still able to exert some small amount of power, maintaining an itinerant court in the Loire Valley at castles such as Chinon, being customarily known as "Dauphin" still, or derisively as "King of Bourges" (Bourges being the region where he generally lived)...*** The Loire valley is not considered to be southern France.
 * 3) The map that was added does not show Bourges. Dommage!
 * 4) There should be a choice of English-English or American-English: both are being used.
 * 5) I added the accent on Orleans→Orléans, maybe this is not acceptable in this text. If so, I shall remove it.
 * Frania W. (talk) 14:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Frania, I prefer the accent on Orléans. It should stay. You are right, until the French Revolution, blue and white were the colours of France. Red, white and blue are the post-revoluion colours of France.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Coronation music
Is there any record of the music played and sung at the coronation in 1429? There may not have been much as there would have been little time to rehearse. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC).

Two daughters named Joan?
The article claims that he had two daughters named Joan (Jeanne), one who was born in 1435 and who died in 1482, and another one who was born in 1438 and who died in 1446. While that wouldn't be the only case of two royal siblings sharing the name (cf. James IV of Scotland and James Stewart, Duke of Ross), I am more inclined to believe that the second Joan did not exist. So, what about her? Or them? Surtsicna (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What makes you believe that? Did you look at Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands?  The second Jeanne de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 26 Dec 1446) was the twin of Marie de France.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 22:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy is correct. The two *Jeanne*, daughters of Charles VII, may have had other baptismal names after the first one to differentiate them, as the *Louis* below. Not only did Charles VII have two *Jeanne*, he also had two *Marie*. Having children with the same first baptismal name is/was not uncommon.
 * Sons of Louis de France:
 * Louis (Joseph)
 * Louis (Auguste)
 * Louis (Stanislas)
 * Sons of Louis XVI:
 * Louis (Xavier)
 * Louis (Charles)

I would like to point out that this text, which is in English, has kept all French names in French:

King Charles VII & his wife had fourteen children:

1.        LOUIS de France (Bourges, Bishop's palace 3 Jul 1423-Château de Plessis-les-Tours, La Riche, Indre-et-Loire 30 Aug 1483, bur Notre-Dame de Cléry, Loiret). Dauphin de Viennois from birth. He succeeded in 1461 as LOUIS XI King of France.

2.        JEAN de France (b and d Poitiers 19 Sep 1426).

3.        RADEGONDE de France (Chinon, Indre-et-Loire 1425 before 29 Aug-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 19 Mar 1444, bur Tours, Cathédrale Saint-Gatien). Betrothed (contract Innsbruck 22 Jul 1430) to SIGISMUND of Austria, son of FRIEDRICH IV "mit den leeren Tasche" Graf von Tirol & his second wife Anna von Braunschweig-Lüneburg (Innsbruck 26 Oct 1427-Innsbruck 4 Mar 1496, bur Stams). He succeeded his father in 1439 as SIGISMUND "der Münzreiche" Graf von Tirol.

4.        CATHERINE de France (-Brussels 13 Sep 1446, bur Brussels, Cathédrale Saint-Michel). She left the French court in May 1438 to live with the Duke of Burgundy at Saint-Omer. m (Betrothed 1438, St Omer 19 May 1440) CHARLES de Bourgogne Comte de Charolais, son of PHILIPPE III "le Bon" Duke of Burgundy & his third wife Infanta doña Isabel de Portugal (Dijon 11 Nov 1433-killed in battle Nancy 5 Jan 1477, bur 1512 Bruges église de Notre-Dame). He succeeded his father in 1467 as CHARLES "le Hardi/le Téméraire" Duke of Burgundy.

5.        JACQUES de France (1432-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 2 Mar 1437, bur Tours, Cathédrale Saint-Gatien).

6.        YOLANDE de France (Tours, Indre-et-Loire 23 Sep 1434-Chambéry 29 Aug 1478, bur Vercelli, San Eusebio). The marriage contract between "Amedeo di Savoia figlio del Duca Lodovico" and "Yolant di Francia figlia di Carlo VII Re di Francia" is dated 16 Aug 1436[751]. After her betrothal, she was sent to Thonon to be brought up by her future mother-in-law. Regent of Savoy 1472-1478 during the minority of her son Philibert. m (contract Tours 16 Aug 1436, Feurs en Forez, Loire 1452) AMEDEE de Savoie, son of LOUIS Duc de Savoie & his wife Anne Pss of Cyprus (Château de Thonon, Haute-Savoie 1 Feb 1435-Vercelli 30 Mar 1472, bur Vercelli, San Eusebio). He succeeded his father in 1465 as AMEDEE IX Duke of Savoy.

7.        JEANNE de France (1435-Château de Moulins, Allier 4 May 1482, bur Moulins, église de Notre-Dame). m (contracts Château de Montils-lès-Tours 23 Dec 1446 and Tours 26 Dec 1446, dispensation 3 Nov 1452, in person end 1452) as his first wife, JEAN de Bourbon Comte de Clermont, son of CHARLES I Duc de Bourbon et d'Auvergne & his wife Agnès de Bourgogne [Valois] (Château de Moulins, Allier 30 Aug 1426[752]-Château de Moulins 1 Apr 1488, bur Priory of Souvigny). He succeeded his father in 1456 as JEAN II Duc de Bourbon et d'Auvergne.

8.        PHILIPPE de France (Château de Chinon, Indre-et-Loire 4 Feb 1436-11 Jun 1436).

9.        MARGUERITE de France (May 1437-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 24 Jul 1438).

10.     JEANNE de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 26 Dec 1446). Twin with Marie.

11.     MARIE de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438- Tours, Indre-et-Loire 14 Feb 1439).

12.     MARIE de France (1441-young).

13.     MADELEINE de France (Tours, Indre-et-Loire 1 Dec 1443-Pamplona 24 Jan 1495, bur Pamplona Cathedral). Betrothed (Sep 1457) to LADISLAUS Duke of Austria, King of Bohemia, ULÁSZLÓ I King of Hungary, son of ALBRECHT V Duke of Austria, King of Bohemia and Hungary & his wife Elisabeth Pss of Bohemia & Hungary [Luxembourg] (posthumously Komarón, Hungary 22 Feb 1440-Prague 23 Nov 1457, bur Prague St Veit). m (contract Tours 1458, Saint-Jean-d'Angély, Charente-Maritime 11 Feb 1462, Saint-Macaire, Gironde 7 Mar 1462) GASTON de Foix Principe de Viana, son of GASTON IV de Grailly Comte de Foix et de Bigorre & his wife Infanta doña Leonor de Aragón y Navarra [later Leonor I Queen of Navarre] (1444-Libourne, Gironde 23 Nov 1470, bur Bordeaux, Cathédrale Saint-André). He died from injuries received during a tournament.

14.     CHARLES de France (Château de Montils-lès-Tours 12 Dec 1446-Bordeaux 24 May 1472, bur Bordeaux, Cathédrale Saint-André). He bore the title Duc de Berry from birth, confirmed Nov 1461. His father Charles VII unsuccessfully proposed Charles to succeed Ladislaus of Austria as King of Bohemia and Hungary, sending an ambassador to Prague Feb 1458. Duc de Normandie, Comte de Mortain Oct 1465, enthroned as Duke at Notre-Dame de Rouen 1 Dec 1465, dispossessed by the King his brother Nov 1469. Duc de Guyenne Apr 1469. Mistress (1): COLETTE de Chambes, wife of LOUIS Sire d'Amboise Vicomte de Thouars Prince de Talmont, daughter of JEAN de Chambes Seigneur de Montsoreau [counsellor and first maître d'hôtel of the King, captain and governor of La Rochelle] & his wife Jeanne Chabot (-Saint-Sever 14 Dec 1471, bur Saint-Sever). She left her husband mid-1469 to live with Charles Duc de Guyenne. Duke Charles had two illegitimate daughters by Mistress (1):

a)        JEANNE bâtarde de Guyenne (-after 1533).  Dominican nun.  Under-prioress at the convent of Saint-Pardoux la Rivière, Périgord.

b)        ANNE bâtarde de Guyenne (-before 14 Nov 1491).  m (contract 5 Oct 1470) as his first wife, FRANÇOIS de Volvire Seigneur de Ruffec en Angoûmois, son of JEAN de Volvire [counsellor and chamberlain of Charles Duc de Guyenne] & his wife Catherine de Comborn (-1541).  Seigneur de Montcucq en Quercy 1471.  Counsellor and Chamberlain of the King.

--Frania W. (talk) 01:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There have been many instances where two full siblings have shared the same name. This was due to their being given the same baptismal name as all the daughters of Maria Theresa of Austria bore the first name of Maria (Marie), such as Marie Antoinette, or it often happened when an elder sibling was sickly and thought to die, and the parents wished to honour a relative by giving a new-born baby the same name as the older child. This occurred in the Holland family in the late 14th century when two sisters: Alianore Holland and Eleanor Holland bore the same name. They were obviously named for their maternal grandmother Eleanor of Lancaster.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If the sister(s) had another baptismal name, it should be mentioned, shouldn't it? If they didn't (if there are no reliable sources saying that they did), what's the point of mentioning the second name? None of Maria Theresa's daughters was known simply as Maria and the Holland sisters had two slightly different types of their grandmother's name. Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe there were names following "Jeanne" and we have not seen them; but if they were only "Jeanne", then that's what they were. --Frania W. (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Antonia Fraser explains on page 443 in The Wives of Henry VIII that in the Middle Ages if an elder sibling had already died or was thought to die soon, a new-born sibling of the same sex was often given his or her name. This is clearly the case here.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the first Joan was about to die so her parents named her sister after her, but afterwards she survived.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 09:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes possibly. Ironically it was the younger Jeanne who died young, while the elder survived into adulthood.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What Mme Fraser explains is clearly the case for the two "Marie": after the death of the first one in 1439, the next girl born in 1441 was named "Marie".
 * --Frania W. (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would have been considered a mark of respect to the Virgin Mary, to have a daughter named Marie; therefore, if a Marie died, it would follow that a newborn daughter would be given her name.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

This is the exact situation as the daughters of John I of Aragon, also Joan or Joanna.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Unification
It's kind of ridiculous to claim that "under Charles VII France was for the first time since the Carolingian dynasty united under one ruler" when Burgundy still existed. I think it's more important that he kicked the English out, thereby regaining the north and Aquitaine. Brutannica (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Joan of Arc/Jeanne d'Arc.
The article should be consistent in the use of name. Since Joan of Arc is the name of the article in this wikipedia, Joan of Arc should be used, right?Naraht (talk) 13:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Little controversi with the date of birth of princesses Radegund and Catherine
Hello, I want to expose here what I think is a slight inconsistency (in my opinion) in what is exposed in this wiki with the dates of birth of the princesses Radegund and Catherine. So, as I think it would be more accurate.

Two possible birth dates for Radegund, 1425 and August 1428, are cited here, while the birth date of her younger sister, Catherine, is also given as 1428; according to another source.

Therefore, if the year 1428 is accepted as Catherine's birth, without the possibility of questioning it, the possibility that her sister Radegunda was also born in August of that year is completely invalidated, as the same wiki also collects. As they were not twins, they could not be born with such a short time difference either, since from August to the end of the year there is a very small margin for the birth of the other sister, which would have to be, at least, already in 1429.

So it can only be stated that she is born in 1428, if Radegund is born in 1425; at the same time that if the possibility that Radegunda was born in August 1428 is left open, it should be noted that Catherine could be born in 1429/31, which is the space that remains until the birth of the next brother (1432).

So if the reference to Catherine's birth is sound and there is no chance of a typo in the source (this being a book I haven't read, I can't tell if it refers to a first-hand document or not), the the year in which Radegund could be born is in 1425, exclusively (according to the references provided). Because it cannot be affirmed at the same time that there is a possibility that Radegund is born in August 1428, and at the same time that the other sister is also born that same year, when it is impossible that both events happened at that time interval.

So if it can be claimed that Catherine was born in 1428, it cannot be said that Radegun could have been born in August of that year. Because one event excludes the other, since there would be no time for another birth in that year. Therefore, in my opinion, since one source contradicts the other and neither possibility seems to be absolutely corroborated, it would be more prudent to question the year of birth of both sisters, not just one. Radegunda's from 1425 or August 1428 and Catherine's from around 1428 or later. The reference that Catherine could be born after that year is deduced from the same source that cites the birth of her sister in August of that date, because Catalina could not be born with four months, which is the period of time from August to december. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.94.49.136 (talk) 09:06, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Charles VII of France


text:
Talk:Labyrinth

Etymology
Hans Georg Wunderlich, held the chair of Geology and Paleontology in the University of Stuttgart. In his book he mentions that in accordance with the ancient tradition (before the discovery of the palace of Knossos), the word labyrinth is derived from the Egyptian loperohunt. I believe that the source is reliable. In Encyclopedia Britannica it is mentioned that it is possible that the word labyrinth may have Egyptian origin. No other source is available to me.Jestmoon(talk) 13:29, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Can you be more specific about what Wunderlich says and the sources he relies on? Is this an ancient folk etymology or a serious claim (on real evidence) that the Minoan word was borrowed from Egyptian? (Anything is "possible", but we should avoid speculation without evidence, and this is well beyond Wunderlich's area of expertise.  It doesn't help that enthusiasts of Wunderlich also seem enamoured of Velikovsky and Barry Fell.) -- Elphion (talk) 14:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica mentions "The word is considered by some to be of Egyptian origin, while others connect it with the Gr. λαῦρα, the passage of a mine." I added the etymology given by Beekes. Unfortunately Wunderlich does not give any source. It must be noted that the word has not been found in Linear A tablets.Jestmoon(talk) 14:58, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

 * The EB reference is not very informative. I agree that da-pu2-ri-to-jo does not appear verbatim in Linear A (the form, after all, is obviously a Greek genitive; the Mycenaean nominative form was probably something like daburito).  The form du-bu-re or du-pu2-re, however, does appear in Linear A, on libation tablets and in connection with Mts Dikte and Ida, both of which are associated with caverns. In this regard, Sarullo's article cites two papers by Francesco Aspesi.  The connection is likely but not conclusive. Perhaps we should not say "Minoan word" directly, but indicate that the connection between the Linear A and Linear B words has been proposed by Aspesi. -- Elphion (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

(outdent) Jestmoon, please refrain from making such edits. You added an unsourced Egyptian etymology which is original research, you adulterated a source (you replaced a proper citation to Beekes' Etymological Dictionary of Greek with an abbreviated one citing it as Greek Etymological dictionary (which is not the name of the book!)), you added a junk source (https://linearbknossosmycenae.com/tag/dapu/), you transcribed λαύρα as labra in violation of WP:GREEK. Such editing borders on vandalism. --Omnipaedista (talk) 12:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I have rewritten part of the Etymology section to restore well-referenced alternatives to the speculative (and increasingly deprecated) association with labrys. Beekes, especially, deserves mention, and the lavra (Latin)/laura (Greek) equivalence comes from Beekes, not Jestmoon. -- Elphion (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! By the way, I never said that the statement about Beekes' opinion is not accurate (I was the one who inserted information about Beekes' views in this article), I just commented on the transcription. --Omnipaedista (talk) 22:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

In Greek the pronunciation is lavra (λαύρα), and the word was written in the text. Ι admit that the book of Wunderlich is not a good reference, but you can check this reference: According to Egyptologists, the word means "the temple at the entrance of the lake". Jestmoon(talk) 15:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Please familiarize yourself with Naming_conventions_(Greek). It is "laura". Please stop transliterating Ancient Greek words unless you follow Wikipedia's naming conventions. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Oxkintok
Should be mentioned in the "Ancient labyrinths outside Europe" section. There's a Wikipedia Oxkintok article already. Whether it is really a maze doesn't matter, because it is called the Oxkintok labyrinth. It's just way too cumbersome and weird for me to edit Wiki, but it's just a labyrinth worth mentioning.109.57.143.138 (talk) 13:38, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The structure at Oxkintok is beyond the scope of this article. I've added a link to Oxkintok in the See also section. -- Elphion (talk) 19:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Pathways to Learning
— Assignment last updated by LiliannaPucek (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Micro mice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromouse 87.49.146.231 (talk) 07:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

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Talk:Preternatural

Power of flight for angels?
This introduction describes the "power of flight that angels are thought to have" and then cites an Encylopedia.com article on the Preternatural that doesn't mention flight or flying anywhere in the article. This seems to be a confusion between angels and saints, some of whom are believed to have exhibited a preternatural levitation ability at times. Angels are not corporeal creatures, so flight and flying would be irrelevant in terms of an ontological category of the preternatural, and evokes the image of angels only in popular media and imagination. I suggest changing "angels" to "saints" and citing an appropriate source about levitation. MaxWestEsq (talk) 15:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiktionary entry?
Wouldn't this be better in Wiktionery? Wetman 11:42, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC) Yes. This article is rubbish.
 * And what exactly does "science's 'too difficult' basket" mean? --Fastfission 05:11, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ambiguity
I believe this word 'preternatural' is somewhat ambiguous. It seems to be generally used as a somewhat more restrained alternative to 'supernatural', which is perhaps more suggestive of something 'religious' or 'mystical'. One could say "Einstein seems to have had a preternatural aptitude for mathematics" amongst a gathering of hardened skeptics without drawing awkward stares, whereas the statement "Einstein seems to have had a supernatural aptitude for mathematics" would be more likley to draw some groans. Weird illustration, but I think it conveys the point i am trying to make ;).

I have seen 'preternatural' used in fiction to denote werewolves and the like, while 'supernatural' seems to be reserved for demons and angels. In Christian writings, 'supernatural' seems to be reserved for God, and 'preternatural' is used for anything else miraculous or abnormal. Franzeska 19:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The misunderstanding here justifies the need for the article to stay for now. Preternatural is used to describe an anomaly which scientific theory does not yet take into account. Preternatural describes occurances that are not explained by scientific theories, not the pre-scientific ideas that try to explain the anomaly in a mythical way. The preternatural does NOT include occultism, religion, mysticism, monsters, vampires, or legendary creatures. Please read the quotations on the main article. Stevenwagner 18:21, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Really? From the introduction to Preternature: Critical and Historical Studies on the Preternatural linked "on the main article" : Preternature is an interdisciplinary forum for the study of the preternatural as seen in magics, witchcraft, spiritualism, occultism, prophecy, monstrophy, demonology, and folklore. The word has no use to anyone but theologians who wish to separate one form of their nonsense from another.--OGRastamon (talk) 07:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

 * In contradiction to the above the article now says: "Other examples of preternatural creatures INCLUDE Lycanthropes (such as Werewolves), Vampires and Zombies.". I see the simple difference in the latin word meanings: preternatural=beyond nature, supernatural=above nature. Only difference seems to be that "supernatural" includes religion, deism and spirituality while preternatural excludes those. Is preternatural simply a subcategory of supernatural as "supernatural as a human coping mechanism" (like fear for undead or animals) or "supernatural manifested through nature" (like fallen angels power downgrading from supernatural godlike power to preternatural magic. See Category talk:Paranormal for differentiating definitions --Ollj 13:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I am very humble when I enter this discussion. I came across the word for the first time in my life this morning, and, wanting to know what it meant searched one of my main sources of knowledge. The context I met this word in, tells me however, that in some senses there is a great difference between supernatural, a word which I have known and used for decades, and preternatural. This was an article in Nat'l Geographic about Reinhold Messner, and I feel that using the one word about his climbing abilities would make complete sense - meaning "out of this world" but definitely not the other one with its normal religious use. --Jancr0207 07:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

In other words, it's a word meaning merely "abnormal" or "exceptional", whereas "supernatural" would necessitate some divine origin (there is no evidence for lycanthrophy and the like, so they are not real phenomena and do not require scientific explanations for how they work -- there are scientific explanations for how the concept and the legends about them came about, though -- so I don't see how they would be preternatural in the sense of being anything BUT fiction and thus unlikely to be possible reality, although historically established). From what I understand, preternatural includes supernatural as a subcategory, not the other way around: it's not necessarily supernatural, but it's still out of the ordinary. Seems like something pseudoscientists would love to abuse to make their ideas sounds more science-proof. 91.0.105.239 19:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC) (Ashmodai)

Divinity
"Supernatural" is not necessarily associated with "divine." 78.0.81.255 (talk) 13:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Interchangeability with supernatural
'Supernatural' and 'preternatural' are used interchangeably. The 'preternatural phenomena are presumed to have rational explanations as yet unknown', if i understand correctly, implies that the explanations are unknown... which is the same for 'supernatural'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.65.165.246 (talk) 06:37, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not correct. The supernatural is an historically important theological/philosophical doctrine. The miracles of Jesus, saints and the apostles would be proper examples of what falls under the aegis of supernatural. In no event is it presumed to be natural (!) naturalistic explanations are out of the question, by definition… then again, it's not the sort of mystery that needs explaining.

 * I don't know what “preternatural phenomena” you have in mind, but surely “paranormal phenomena” would have been be less awkward. Preternatural is much more easily annexed to a tabloid thesaurus of the paranormal. A good synonym is uncanny, so too interchangeably would be bogus.—Machine Elf 1735  19:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've seen this used many times as "strange phenomena that science has yet to understand" rather than "imaginary things that don't exist" or "trickery". If I find the cite I will share it. Kortoso (talk)
 * Wiktionary entry:
 * In modern secular use, refers to extraordinary but still natural phenomena, as in “preternatural talent”. In religious and occult usage, used similarly to supernatural, meaning “outside of nature”, but usually to a lower level than supernatural – it can be used synonymously (identical to supernatural), as a hyponym (a kind of supernatural), or a coordinate term (similar to supernatural, but a distinct category). For example, in Catholic theology, preternatural refers to properties of creatures like angels, while supernatural refers to properties of God alone.Kortoso (talk) 20:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

pronunciation?
PREEtur vs PRETTERtur ? either? 98.110.40.14 (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Are ALL Preternatual events always evil ?
Confused, more defination re: PRETERNATUAL events. It seems that all the so called interaction between Humans and suppossed eneties are always EVIL intended? Is this so? ThanksMinEdsonAndreJohnson (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Preternatural


text:
Timeline of SOE French Section

The SOE F Section timeline lists the significant events in the history of Section F of the Special Operations Executive. The Special Operations Executive (SOE) was a clandestine organization of the United Kingdom during World War II. The purpose of SOE was to conduct espionage, sabotage, and reconnaissance in countries occupied by the Axis powers. SOE agents allied themselves with resistance groups and supplied them with weapons and equipment parachuted in from England. Section F was responsible for many of SOE's activities in France which was occupied by Nazi Germany.

SOE F Section sent about 470 agents to France from 1941 to 1944, of whom about 40 were women. The Valençay SOE Memorial lists 91 men and 13 women agents who were killed, executed, or died in concentration camps during the war. SOE agents in France were organized into networks which usually consisted of an organiser (the leader), a courier, and a wireless operator.

1940

 * 19 June
 * British Prime Minister Winston Churchill wrote a memorandum proposing to create an organization "to coordinate all action by way of subversion and sabotage against the enemy overseas. The army of Nazi Germany was in the process of occupying many countries of Europe, including France which would initially be divided into the Occupied Zone and the unoccupied or "Free Zone." (Vichy France)

 * 22 July
 * The Special Operations Executive was created with Hugh Dalton, the Minister of Economic Warfare, appointed at its head. Dalton said that Churchill told him to "set Europe ablaze."

April 1941

 * April
 * Vera Atkins joined SOE and was appointed the intelligence officer for Section F. Romanian born, she became "the most powerful personality in SOE."

May 1941

 * May
 * Giliana Balmaceda was the first female SOE agent to be sent to occupied France. A citizen of Chile, she traveled legally to Vichy France and collected documents such as ration and identification cards that could be forged by the SOE for its undercover agents in France.
 * 5 May
 * Wireless operator Georges Bégué was the first male SOE F section agent in France and the first to arrive by parachute. He landed in Indre Department. He set up radio communications and met agents who followed him.

June 1941

 * 13 June
 * The first airdrop of weapons to the French Resistance took place, arranged by Georges Bégue and Pierre de Vomécourt. Two CLE Canisters were parachuted onto the estate of Philippe de Vomécourt near Limoges. The Vomécourt brothers created the first two SOE networks (or reseau) in France, named Autogiro and Ventriloquist.

August 1941

 * 6/7 August
 * SOE agents Jacques Vaillant de Guélis and G.C.G Turck parachuted into France. Turck was injured and captured on landing; de Guélis spent a month in France recruiting agents, collecting documents, and preparing the way for the arrival of Virginia Hall.

 * 23 August
 * American Virginia Hall departed England for Vichy France as a SOE agent. Her cover was as a correspondent for The New York Post. The United States was not yet at war with Germany and Americans could travel to and from France. Hall was the first female SOE agent to live and work in France for an extended period of time.

September 1941

 * September
 * Maurice Buckmaster was appointed the leader of SOE F Section. At this time the SOE headquarters staff of Section F consisted of eight people which would be increased to 24 during the next year and many more thereafter. Nicolas Bodington became Buckmaster's deputy.

 * 4 September
 * The first clandestine landing of a Westland Lysander airplane in support of SOE took place on a farm field in Indre Department. The Lysander transported agents and reports back and forth from England to France and vice versa. Sixty-three Lysander flights would land in France during the war, transporting 102 agents into France and evacuating 129. Some agents arrived or departed by Lockheed Hudson airplane. Most arrived by parachute.

 * 6/7 September
 * SOE agents Benjamin Cowburn, Michael Trotobas, Victor Gerson, George Langelaan, Jean du Puy, and André Bloch parachuted into France at night near Châteauroux. They were met by Bégué, Max Hymans, and a local farmer, Octave Chanteraine. Cowburn, Trotobas, and Gerson would become important SOE agents.

 * 19/20 September
 * SOE agent Francis Basin arrived in France by clandestine boat and set up operations in Cannes on the French Riviera. He came into contact with an organization called Carte headed by an artist named André Girard who claimed to have organized a large group of resisters to German control. Basin's reports on Carte gave SOE hope that it could be used as the spearhead of a large resistance movement to the Germans.

October 1941

 * 20 October
 * In what was called the "mousetrap," Vichy Police learned of a Marseilles safehouse called the Villa des Bois and arrested about 10 SOE agents who visited the Villa.

 * 24 October
 * As part of the "mousetrap," Georges Bégué was arrested in Marseilles and in an unrelated action, a routine document check, Michael Trotabas was arrested in Chateauroux. The arrests left Virginia Hall in Lyon as nearly the only SOE agent remaining at large in Vichy France and she had no wireless operator for communication with SOE headquarters.

November 1941

 * 17 November
 * In Paris Nazi spy catcher Sergeant Hugo Bleicher led German police in arresting members of a Franco-Polish resistance group, Interallié. Among those arrested was Mathilde Carré, nicknamed "the Cat." In exchange for money and freedom, Carré agreed to work for Bleicher and helped him arrest additional members of the group. Interallié was destroyed.

December 1941

 * 26 December
 * His wireless operator having been arrested, Pierre de Vomécourt had no means of communicating with SOE headquarters in London. In Paris he was introduced to Mathilde Carré who, unknown to him, had become a double agent, working for the Germans. She told him she had access to a wireless. The wireless was controlled by the Germans and they began transmitting, receiving, and reading Vomécourt's messages.

January 1942

 * 9/10 January
 * Peter Churchill landed by submarine at Miramar on the French Riviera, to evaluate the Carte network. Carte's leader, André Girard, claimed that his organization could, with SOE help, undertake sabotage and guerilla warfare and eventually field an army of 300,000 men to resist German control of France. Assistance to Carte became F Section's top priority in 1942.

February 1942

 * 11 February
 * Wireless operator Andre Bloch was executed by the Germans at Mont-Valérien, the first SOE agent in France to be executed. Pierre de Vomécourt said that it was obvious that Bloch was Jewish and sending him as an agent to France showed the ignorance of SOE about wartime life in France.

 * 26/27 February
 * Pierre de Vomécourt and Mathilde Carré departed France by Royal Navy motor torpedo boat to return to England. De Vomécourt had realized she was a German agent and persuaded her to go to England with him. She gained the approval of her German handlers for the trip, because she would learn much about SOE and report to them upon her return to France. Instead, Carré was imprisoned in England for the remainder of the war.

April 1942

 * 25 April
 * Pierre de Vomécourt was arrested by Hugo Bleicher in Paris. He had been parachuted back into France on 1 April. Vomécourt persuaded the Germans to treat him and his followers as prisoners of war, rather than spies, and he spent the rest of the war imprisoned in Colditz Castle. His arrest, and the destruction of his Autogiro network, left SOE without any working networks in France, although Virginia Hall remained active in Lyon.

July 1942

 * 1/2 July
 * English painter Brian Stonehouse, a wireless operator, parachuted into occupied France near the city of Tours, Indre-et-Loire, in the Loire Valley. Stonehouse was captured in October 1942 along with courier Blanche Charlet, and spent the rest of the war in German prisons, including Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp. Charlet later escaped and was evacuated to England.

 * 15 July
 * Eleven SOE agents, including Michael Trotobas and Georges Bégué, escaped from a French prison in the Dordogne region. They made their way to Lyon where Virginia Hall helped them cross the border into Spain and return to England.

 * 29/30 July
 * SOE F Section's second on command, Nicolas Bodington, landed on the French Riviera via clandestine boat. Landed with him was Carte's second-in-command, Henri Frager and courier Yvonne Rudellat. Bodington's task was to assess the viability of Carte as a resistance organization and the assistance needed from SOE. Ruddelat would become involved with the Prosper network as a courier and saboteur.

 * Claude de Baissac parachuted with Harry Peulevé near Nimes. Dropped from too low an altitude, Peulevé broke his leg. Despite a sprained ankle, de Baissac continued with his mission to set up the Scientist Network and to conduct espionage at Bordeaux. After a partial recovery, Puelevé, still limping, walked across the Pyrenees to Spain and returned to England in November.

August 1942

 * 27/28 August
 * John Starr arrived by parachute in a field near Valence, Drôme, in Vichy France on his first mission. Peter Churchill arrived by parachute near Montpellier on his third mission. His job was to liaison with Carte and his network was called Spindle. Both were highly regarded agents.

September 1942

 * 12 September
 * Nicolas Bodington returned to England from the French Riviera and presented a favorable report on the Carte network and its potential as a resistance organization. SOE began to plan to provide substantial assistance in money, arms, and supplies to Carte.

 * 17/18 September
 * Michael Trotobas parachuted back into France, landing near Montargis. Trotobas went to Lille where he organized the Farmer network and led many sabotage missions.

 * 25 September
 * Andrée Borrel and Lise de Baissac arrived by parachute at night at a field near Mer, Loir-et-Cher (a parachute jump the previous night was aborted due to the signals in the drop zone being incorrect). They were the first SOE female agents to be parachuted into France. Borrel went to Paris to become a key figure in the Prosper network. De Baissac went to Poitiers where, working mostly by herself, she supported several agents and networks.

October 1942

 * 1/2 October
 * Francis Suttill arrived by parachute near Vendôme and proceeded to Paris to establish the Prosper (also called Physician) network. Suttill was highly regarded by SOE. Prosper was to replace the now defunct Autogiro network as the most important SOE network in northern France. Andrée Borrel was Suttill's courier and his wireless operator was Gilbert Norman.

November 1942

 * November
 * Poor security doomed the Carte network. Traveling by train to Paris, André Marsac's briefcase was stolen by a German agent. The briefcase contained the names and personal information about more than 200 Carte supporters. The Germans continued to observe Carte, but did not take immediate action to arrest those on the list.

 * 3/4 November
 * George Starr and Odette Sansom arrived clandestinely by boat at night near Cannes, Alpes-Maritimes, on the Mediterranean coast of France. The return voyage carried John Starr out of France following his first mission, taking with him reports collected by Peter Churchill. George Starr would establish a network in southwestern France and Sansom would become Churchill's courier.

 * 8 November
 * Allied forces invaded French colonies in North Africa and in consequence the Germans and Italians invaded and occupied previously un-occupied Vichy France. The German occupation made life for SOE agents in former Vichy France much more dangerous. However, most of Prosper's operations were in northern, occupied France.

 * 13 November
 * Phillipe de Vomécourt was arrested by French police near Limoges and sentenced to 10 years in prison.

December 1942

 * 7/12 December
 * Claude de Baissac organized the Scientist network in Bordeaux with the all-important priority of gathering intelligence and carrying out sabotage against the submarine base there. De Baissac's planned sabotage was thwarted when British commandos simultaneously (without coordination within the British government) carried out Operation Frankton against the submarine base. Frankton was only partially successful, German security increased afterwards and sabotage by de Baissac became infeasible.

 * 29/30 December
 * Jack Agazarian parachuted into France to join the Prosper Network as a second wireless operator. He was later joined by his wife Francine, a courier. They were one of only a few married couples working for SOE, but, although they both worked for Prosper, they had different jobs.

January 1943

 * 2 January
 * The Carte network was riven by internal controversy and finally split into factions headed by André Girard and Henri Frager. Peter Churchill, who was the liaison of Carte with SOE, favored Frager.

 * 22 January
 * Henri Déricourt, a pilot, parachuted into France and went to Paris to work as the air movements officer for the Prosper and other networks. Based in Paris, Déricourt organized Lysander landings at clandestine air fields. Prior to World War II, Déricourt was friends with Nicolas Bodington who became SOE's Deputy Director and Karl Boemelburg who became the German Sicherheitsdienst (the SD, the SS security service) director in Paris.

March 1943

 * 23/24 March
 * Peter Churchill and Henri Frager of Carte returned to England for consultations with SOE by Lysander flight from near Compiègne. On the inward flight Francis Cammaerts arrived to take Churchill's place and was driven to Paris.

 * 25 March
 * The German destruction of Carte commenced with the arrest of André Marsac in Paris which was followed by additional arrests. Francis Cammaerts, recently arrived, was appalled at the loose security of Carte and departed Paris for Annecy.

April 1943

 * 16 April
 * One day after Peter Churchill returned to France, he and his courier, Odette Sansom, were arrested by Hugo Bleicher in Saint-Jorioz near Annecy. Bleicher learned their location from arrested Carte members André Marsac and Roger Bardet. The Carte network in which SOE had invested so much hope was destroyed. The Prosper network of Francis Suttill became SOE's principal effort to foster resistance to the German occupation. Prosper was based in Paris. Churchill and Sansom would both survive the war in concentration camps.

 * 18 April
 * With contacts from the ruins of the Interallié, Autogiro and Carte networks, Prosper had grown rapidly and its writ now extended "from the Ardennes to the Atlantic." However, in a first sign of worry, Prosper leader Francis Suttill sent a report to SOE saying that he distrusted former Carte official Henri Frager, now associated with Prosper.

 * 22 April
 * The destruction of the Prosper network began with the arrest by the German SD of sisters Germaine and Madeleine Tambour in Paris. Both had been associated with Carte and also with Prosper. Francis Suttill attempted unsuccessfully to bribe the Germans for their release. Both were later executed. The sisters' apartment was a safe house and a letter box to pass along messages for SOE agents. A few days before the arrest, Benjamin Cowburn had commented to Suttill that too many people were going in and out of the apartment.

May 1943

 * 20/21 May
 * Francis Suttill returned to France after a week of consultations with SOE in London. He informed SOE that he believed the Germans had infiltrated the Prosper network because of the large number of arrests taking place. His mood was described as "jaded," a "show of nerves," and antagonistic about what he considered the failings of SOE headquarters.

June 1943

 * 15/16 June
 * Noor Inayat Khan, Diana Rowden, and Cecily Lefort arrived by air at a location north-east of Angers, Maine-et-Loire, in the Loire Valley, where they were met by Henri Déricourt. Inayat Khan would work with the Prosper network in Paris. Jack Agazarian left on the return flight to England. Agazarian had been accused by Suttill of being careless.

 * 15/16 June
 * Canadian SOE agents Frank Pickersgill and John Kenneth Macalister had parachuted into France a few days earlier. They were met by Yvonne Rudelatt and Pierra Culioli, who were to drive them to Paris, but the two Canadians were taken into custody by the Germans in Dhuizon. After a car chase Rudelatt and Culioli were wounded and captured.

 * 23 June
 * Andrée Borrel and Gilbert Norman, two of the three central figures of the Prosper network, were arrested by the Germans in Paris. Later that same day their leader Francis Suttill was arrested in a small hotel in Paris.  Only Borrel and Norman were likely to have known his location.

 * In London temporarily, Jack Agazarian told SOE that Suttill believed the security of Henri Déricourt's air movements operation was poor. This was apparently the first of many reports by SOE agents expressing concern about Déricourt. Some called him a "traitor" although it was unclear to SOE in London whether that charge pertained to Déricourt (code named "Gilbert") or Suttill's wireless operator, Gilbert Norman.

July 1943

 * 7 July
 * A wireless message ostensibly from Gilbert Norman in Paris confirmed that Suttill had been arrested. However, the message did not contain a security check inserted into all messages by operators to confirm their identity and that they were not broadcasting under duress. Rather than question the provenance of the message, SOE commander Buckmaster replied, "You have forgotten your security check. Be more careful." The message had in fact been sent to SOE by the Germans.

 * Buckmaster's mistake permitted the Germans to play "funkspiel" (radio games) with Norman's wireless, receiving messages from SOE and sending false messages to SOE, a game they would play for the next few months with great success.

 * 18 July
 * John Starr was wounded and captured by German Sicherheitsdienst (SD) in Dijon. He was tortured before being moved to Paris to SD headquarters at 84 Avenue Foch.

 * 22/23 July
 * Nicolas Bodington and Jack Agazarian landed in France on a Lockheed Hudson airplane to investigate the fate of the Prosper network. SOE in London was aware that Suttill had been arrested but believed that his wireless operator Gilbert Norman was still at liberty. In reality, Norman was imprisoned and the Germans were using his radio to mislead the SOE.

 * 30 July
 * In Paris, Bodington and Agazarian contacted Gilbert Norman to arrange a meeting. The Germans in control of Norman's radio told Bodington to meet Norman at an apartment near the Gare Saint-Lazare. However, instead of Bodington, Agazarian went to the apartment and was arrested by the Germans. Why Bodington did not go to the apartment rather than Agazarian has been disputed. Bodington's friend and double agent Henri Déricourt may have warned Bodington not to go to the rendezvous. Agazarian was later executed.

August 1943

 * 2 August
 * SOE agent and prominent Grand Prix motor racing driver William Grover-Williams was arrested by the Gestapo. He would later be executed.

 * 17/18 August
 * Nicolas Bodington, Claude de Baissac, and Lise de Baissac returned to England via Lysander. Claude de Baissac's Scientist network, based in Bordeaux, which had tentacles reaching from the Pyrenees to Paris, had been destroyed as had the Prosper Network.

September 1943

 * 15 September
 * Cecily Lefort was arrested by Gestapo in Montélimar, 26, Rhône-Alpes.
 * 18 September
 * Harry Peulevé, Yolande Beekman and Harry Despaigne arrived by Lysander near Angers.

October 1943

 * 13 October
 * Noor Inayat Khan, the last remaining SOE wireless operator in the Paris area, was arrested. She apparently was betrayed by another woman to the Germans for money. The Germans also found her codes and security checks and used her wireless to mislead SOE, resulting in the arrest of more SOE agents and recovery of arms. Inayat Khan was imprisoned at 84 Avenue Foch, the SD (German counter-intelligence) headquarters in Paris.

 * 30 October
 * Vera Leigh was arrested at a café near the Place des Ternes in Paris and taken to Fresnes prison, Val-de-Marne.

November 1943

 * 18 November
 * Diana Rowden and John Young were arrested at Clairvaux-les-Lacs, 39 near Lons-le-Saunier.
 * 19 November
 * Diana Rowden was taken to 84 Avenue Foch where she was interrogated for two weeks before being taken to Fresnes prison, 94.
 * 25 November
 * Noor Inyat Khan, John Starr and Colonel Léon Faye escaped from 84 Avenue Foch but were quickly captured in the immediate vicinity.
 * 26 November
 * Noor Inyat Khan and Leon Faye were sent to Germany after refusing to take an oath not to try to escape again. John Starr took the oath.
 * 27 November
 * Michael Trotobas was killed in a gunfight with German soldiers in Lille.

January 1944

 * 3 January
 * In a jailbreak from Eysses prison, Philippe de Vomécourt and 52 other resistors escaped. Vomécourt made his way to Spain and to England and later in 1944 back to France where he led several sabotage operations.

 * 13 January
 * Yolande Beekman and Gustave Bieler were arrested at the Café du Moulin Brulé in Saint-Quentin (Picardy).

February 1944

 * 28/29 February
 * SOE agents Madeleine Damerment, France Antelme and Lionel Lee took off from RAF Tempsford airfield in a No. 161 Squadron Halifax aircraft late on 28 February and parachuted into a field near Chartres, Eure-et-Loir, early the next morning and were arrested by waiting Gestapo. The Germans knew of their arrival due to the wireless machines they had captured during the destruction of the Prosper network. These three were among the 19 SOE agents captured on their arrival in France and executed. French helpers of the Prosper network who were deported to Germany totaled at least 167.

March 1944

 * 2-3 March
 * Eileen Nearne landed near Les Lagneys, Indre.

 * 21 March
 * Harry Peulevé and Louis Bertheau were arrested in Brive-la-Gaillarde.

April 1944

 * April
 * Maurice Southgate was arrested.
 * April 5
 * Lilian Rolfe was dropped near the city of Orléans, 45, to work with the "Historian" network run by George Wilkinson
 * April 29
 * John Hind Farmer and Nancy Wake of the "Freelance" network parachuted into Auvergne to liaise between London and the local Maquis.

May 1944

 * May 13
 * Vera Leigh, Andrée Borrel, Odette Sansom, Diana Rowden, Yolande Beekman, Eliane Plewman and Madeleine Damerment were taken from Fresnes prison, 94, to 84 Avenue Foch, where they were joined by Sonya Olschanezky.  They were all then moved to the civil prison at Karlsruhe in Germany.

 * May 24

 * 1st Lt. Lee G. Johnson was captured by the Gestapo in Paris, France. He remained there until September, 1944.  From there he was transferred to Stalag Luft I, Barth, Germany.  He remained there until its April 1945 liberation.

June 1944

 * June 6
 * The D-Day landings occurred in Normandy.

July 1944

 * July
 * Eileen Nearne arrested.
 * July 2
 * Henri Frager was arrested by Abwehr sergeant Hugo Bleicher at a rendezvous arranged by Roger Bardet.
 * July 6
 * Diana Rowden, Vera Leigh, Sonya Olschanezky, and Andrée Borrel were shipped to the Natzweiler-Struthof, Bas-Rhin, concentration camp in the Vosges Mountains of Alsace (France) where they were injected with phenol and disposed of in the crematorium. Their arrival at the camp was witnessed by Brian Stonehouse.

 * Christine Granville arrived by parachute in France, joining the Jockey network led by Francis Cammaerts.

 * July 31
 * Lilian Rolfe was arrested in Nargis, 45 and taken to Fresnes prison, 94.

August 1944

 * August
 * Lilian Rolfe was shipped to Ravensbrück concentration camp.
 * John Starr was sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
 * 8 August
 * Harry Peulevé, Maurice Southgate, Élisée Allard, Denis Barrett, Robert Benoist, Jean Bouguennec, Pierre Culioli, Angehand Defendini, Julien Detal, Henri Frager, Emile-Henri Garry, Frank Pickersgill, Pierre Geelen, Marcel Leccia, John Macalister, James Mayer, Pierre Mulsant, Charles Rechenmann, Roméo Sabourin, Arthur Steele and George Alfred "Teddy" Wilkinson were sent to Neue Bremm transit camp at Saarbrücken.
 * 16 August
 * Harry Peulevé, [Maurice Southgate, Eliseé Allard, Denis Barrett, Robert Benoist, Jean Bouguennec, Pierre Culioli, Angehand Defendini, Julien Detal, Henri Frager, Emile-Henri Garry, Frank Pickersgill, Pierre Geelen, Marcel Leccia, John Macalister, James Mayer, Pierre Mulsant, Charles Rechenmann, Roméo Sabourin, Arthur Steele and George Wilkinson arrived at Buchenwald concentration camp.
 * 17 August
 * SOE Agent Christine Granville bribed the Gestapo for the release from prison of SOE Agents Francis Cammaerts and Xan Fielding who had been arrested earlier in August and were to be executed. Granville's feat was later portrayed fictionally in the television series Wish Me Luck.
 * 25 August
 * General von Choltitz the German Military Commandant in Paris, formally signed an Act of Surrender to the Provisional Government of the French Republic, although some German strongholds remained in the city.
 * 27 August
 * John Kenneth Macalister, Frank Pickersgill and Roméo Sabourin, were shipped to Buchenwald concentration camp.

September 1944

 * 6 September 6
 * Gilbert Norman was executed at Mauthausen concentration camp
 * 13 September
 * Yolande Beekman, Madeleine Damerment, Noor Inayat Khan, and Eliane Plewman were executed, each by a single shot to the head, and their bodies cremated at Dachau concentration camp.
 * 14 September
 * Eliseé Allard, Robert Benoist, Jean Bouguennec, Angehand Defendini, Julien Detal, Emile-Henri Garry, Frank Pickersgill, Pierre Geelen, Marcel Leccia, John Macalister, James Mayer, Charles Rechenmann, Roméo Sabourin and Arthur Steele were executed at Buchenwald concentration camp.

October 1944

 * 5 October
 * Denis Barrett, Henri Frager, Pierre Mulsant and George Alfred Wilkinson were executed at Buchenwald concentration camp.

February 1945

 * February 5
 * Lilian Rolfe was executed and her body disposed of in the crematorium at Ravensbrück concentration camp.
 * February 17
 * John Starr was sent to Mauthausen concentration camp.

 * February
 * Violette Szabo taken from her cell in Ravensbrück concentration camp and shot in the back of the neck.

March 1945

 * 29 March

 * Jack Agazarian was executed at Flossenbürg concentration camp. Just prior to his execution Agazarian tapped out in Morse code on the wall of his cell a message to his wife. The Danish prisoner who received the message later delivered it to SOE and Agazarian's wife.

April 1945

 * April 11
 * Harry Peulevé escaped from Schönebeck concentration camp.

 * April 29
 * Brian Stonehouse was liberated from Dachau concentration camp by American troops.

May 1945

 * May 4
 * Peter Churchill was liberated in Austria by American troops.
 * May 7
 * Nazi Germany surrendered to the Allies.

1946

 * 15 January
 * SOE was officially dissolved.

title: Timeline of SOE French Section


text:
Talk:Feuer Frei!

Is this really an encyclopedia entry? Wetman 11:44, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Feuer Frei!


text: User talk:62.77.191.193

title: User talk:62.77.191.193


text:
Allfather

Allfather or All-father may refer to:

 * Allfather, or Alföðr, a name of Odin, a central god in Germanic paganism
 * Allfather D'Aronique, a fictional character from Preacher
 * The Dagda, known as all-father, an important god in Irish mythology

title: Allfather


text:
Grand Theft Parsons

Grand Theft Parsons is a 2003 comedy-drama film based on the true story of country rock musician Gram Parsons (played by Gabriel Macht), who died of an overdose in 1973. Parsons and his road manager, Phil Kaufman (Johnny Knoxville), made a pact in life that whoever died first would be cremated by the other in what was then the Joshua Tree National Monument, an area of desert they both loved and cherished.

Plot
The death of singer Gram Parsons prompts Phil Kaufman to fulfill his promise and a black comedy unwinds, with Kaufman bribing mortuary personnel, renting a psychedelic hearse from Larry Oster-Berg, and trekking across the southern California desert, pursued all the while by Parsons' ex-girlfriend with Kaufman's girlfriend and Parsons’ stepfather.

Cast

 * Johnny Knoxville as Phil Kaufman
 * Christina Applegate as Barbara
 * Michael Shannon as Larry Oster-Berg
 * Marley Shelton as Susie
 * Robert Forster as Stanley Parsons
 * Gabriel Macht as Gram Parsons
 * Phil Kaufman as Handcuffed Felon

Reception
Grand Theft Parsons was shown in the "Park City at Midnight" section at the 2004 Sundance Film Festival.

On review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes, 46% of 28 critics gave the film a positive review, with an average rating of 5.4/10, earning it a "Rotten" score. The website's critics consensus reads, "Grand Theft Parsons pays tribute to a rock legend without following biopic formula -- and proves that a unique perspective doesn't always mean a worthwhile film." On Metacritic, the film holds a weighted average score of 46 out of 100, based on 11 critics, indicating "mixed or average reviews".

In his review for The New York Times, A. O. Scott wrote, "Parsons himself might have written a surreal, funny-sad ballad about the aftermath of his own death, but Grand Theft Parsons is little more than a surreal anecdote, told in too much detail and without enough soul or imagination to make anything more than a footnote to a legend". Kimberley Jones, in her review for the Austin Chronicle, wrote, "Black comedy can be a beautiful thing, but Grand Theft Parsons consistently misses that mark for a more bottom-feeding tasteless and broad, with the occasional ham-handed, soulless stab at sober reflection". In his review for the Los Angeles Times, Kevin Crust found Johnny Knoxville "surprisingly good" but felt that the script left "a lot to be desired, strewn with dialogue as flat and stale as old beer and some invented characters who make the events depicted seem more silly than anarchic".

However, in his review for the Sunday Times, Bryan Appleyard wrote, "Grand Theft Parsons is a delight, a comic tragedy that, though it does not say much about Parsons's art, says a great deal about the context in which it emerged". Time Out London found that the film "hit on a pleasing vein of deadpan stoner humour, especially in the character of a hearse-driving hippie who comes along for the ride" and "could easily become a cult favourite". The Daily Mirror wrote, "It's a mark of this movie's tremendous charm that, as the flames rise towards the sky, the ending seems gloriously happy".

title: Grand Theft Parsons


text:
Talk:Phelsuma

Untitled
459 references for a 300 word article? Something is out of balance here! -- Michael Tinkler, sticking his toe back in wikipedia after a year off

The reasons I added this rather long reference list to the main Phelsuma article are:
 * 1) that this main Phelsuma page links to many articles on Phelsuma species. In many of the listed references, more than one species is described, so I would have to duplicate those references many times (for each described species), which seems a waste of disk space. I would rather link each reference (record) to the different articles (other records), like a relational database, but alas wikipedia doesn't allow for this.
 * 2) If one wants to read more about this genus, this list is a starting point.

We could of course create a new article "Phelsuma literature".

Jurriaan 12:09, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hello,

Concerning the Phelsuma article, I'd like to know what people would like to have improved / added most urgently. Jurriaan 11:42, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

IMO, that enormous reference list needs to go. How about moving it here to talk: instead? Bryan 04:00, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Gieco Gecko
Should we add something about the fact that the Gieco Gecko is a day gecko? 1 wit da force 15:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)1 wit da force

I don't think so. The Gieco Gecko is a combination of geckos characteristics. The fact that it has eyelids is the biggest reason it is NOT a day gecko. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LLDGecko (talk • contribs) 15:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

article name and start of article
Article titled "Phelsuma", but starts off with "Day Geckos are small lizards of the genus Phelsuma in the gecko family.". Since article is titled Phelsuma, I'm wondering why article doesn't start with "Phelsuma". Article used to start as "Phelsumas are small lizards which are also known as day geckos." (Change start to "Phelsuma genus consists of various types of Day Geckos." ?) --EarthFurst (talk) 20:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Is it /ˈfɛlsʊmə/ or /fɛlˈsuːmə/? (Or something else…) 85.211.45.101 (talk) 02:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Carl Rakosi

Carl Rakosi (November 6, 1903 – June 25, 2004) was the last surviving member of the Objectivist poets, still publishing and performing poetry well into his 90s.

Early life
Rakosi was born in Berlin and lived there and in Hungary until 1910, when he moved to the United States to live with his father and stepmother. His father was a jeweler and watchmaker in Chicago and later in Gary, Indiana. The family lived in semi-poverty but contrived to send him to the University of Chicago and then to the University of Wisconsin–Madison. During his time studying at the university level, he started writing poetry. On graduating, he worked for a time as a social worker, then returned to college to study psychology. At this time, he changed his name to Callman Rawley because he felt he stood a better chance of being employed if he had a more American-sounding name. After a spell as a psychologist and teacher, he returned to social work for the rest of his working life.

Early writings
At the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Rakosi edited the Wisconsin Literary Magazine. His own poetry at this stage was influenced by W. B. Yeats, Wallace Stevens, and E. E. Cummings. He also started reading William Carlos Williams and T. S. Eliot. By 1925, he was publishing poems in The Little Review and Nation.

Pound and the Objectivists
By the late 1920s, Rakosi was in correspondence with Ezra Pound, who prompted Louis Zukofsky to contact him. This led to Rakosi's inclusion in the Objectivists issue of Poetry and in the An "Objectivists" Anthology. Rakosi himself had reservations about the Objectivist tag, feeling that the poets involved were too different from each other to form a group in any meaningful sense of the word. He especially admired the work of Charles Reznikoff.

Later career
Like his fellow Objectivist George Oppen, Rakosi abandoned poetry after the publication in 1941 of his Selected Poems. He dedicated himself to social work and apparently neither read nor wrote poetry. Years earlier, shortly after his twenty-first birthday, Rakosi had legally changed his name to Callman Rawley, believing that he would not find work with his foreign-sounding name. Under his adopted name, he served as head of the Minneapolis Jewish Children's and Family Service from 1945 until his retirement in 1968. A letter from the English poet Andrew Crozier about his early poetry was the trigger that started Rakosi writing again. His first book in 26 years, Amulet, was published by New Directions in 1967, although it consisted mostly of versions of his earlier poems. His Collected Poems was published in 1986 by the National Poetry Foundation, which was followed by several more volumes and by readings across the United States and Europe.

In early November 2003, Rakosi celebrated his 100th birthday with friends at the San Francisco Public Library. Upon his death Jacket Magazine editor John Tranter observed the following: "Poet Carl Rakosi died on Friday afternoon June 25 at the age of 100, after a series of strokes, in his home in San Francisco. My wife Lyn and I were passing through California in November 2003, and we stopped by to have a coffee with Carl at his home in Sunset. By a lucky coincidence, it happened to be his 100th birthday. He was, as always, kind, thoughtful, bright and alert, and as sharp as a pin. We felt privileged to know him."

Selected bibliography

 * Selected Poems (New Directions, 1941)
 * Amulet (New Directions, 1967)
 * Ere-Voice (New Directions, 1971)
 * Ex Cranium, Night (Black Sparrow Press, 1975)
 * The Collected Prose of Carl Rakosi (National Poetry Foundation, 1983)
 * ''The Collected Poems (National Poetry Foundation, 1986)
 * Poems, 1923-1941 (Sun & Moon Press, 1995)
 * The Earth Suite (Etruscan Books, 1997)
 * The Old Poet's Tale (Etruscan Books, 1999)

title: Carl Rakosi


text: Talk:Navigation

title: Talk:Navigation


text:
Talk:Common dolphin

Other "species" such as Delphinus fitzroyi
Apparently there are only two (maybe three) recognized species and a bunch of other species that are actually just varieties such as Delphinus fitzroyi. The article should list all the species names in use and let the reader now into what species the one they are looking for has currently been clumped. All the names in use should be shown. Jason Quinn (talk) 13:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Salt or fresh water?
It seems that these mainly inhabit salt water, but I read that they are in the Bronx River. Please comment in the article about their inhabiting rivers or other fresh water.CountMacula (talk) 21:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Common dolphin


text:
Talk:Bottlenose dolphin

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080511163107/http://www.dolphin-institute.org/our_research/dolphin_research/awarenessofownbodyparts.htm to http://www.dolphin-institute.org/our_research/dolphin_research/awarenessofownbodyparts.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509161037/http://www.dolphin-institute.org/our_research/dolphin_research/pointinggestures.htm to http://www.dolphin-institute.org/our_research/dolphin_research/pointinggestures.htm
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Embarrassment
If we want to protect the article from editing because it's so vital and colossally sacrosanct, could we at least make sure the text is SPELLED correctly? I am unfamiliar with, e.g., the word ECHOS, though I have heard of ECHOES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:4B00:7AB:38D9:750B:4B20:AF3A (talk) 11:13, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

New species proposed
A new Tursiops species has been proposed in the coastal United States which was previously grouped under Tursiops truncatus. The new name proposed is Tursiops erebennus (from a resurrected synonymy Delphinus erebennus, Cope 1865) common name proposed is Tamanend's bottlenose dolphin. Here is the paper: https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/zoolinnean/zlac025/6585199 and here is a press release: https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/bottlenose-dolphins-along-east-coast-proposed-be-different-species. Potentially should be added here? As well as get a species page? Xarzin (talk) 16:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Confusing Data in "Threats" Section
Slightly confused - the lead of this section claims (uncited) that millions of dolphins die in fishing nets. Is there any source I missed in the article that can verify this claim? A quick google places estimates of the current dolphin population across ~40 species to be in the several hundred thousand, not anywhere close to the number that would be necessary to reach millions of dolphins killed by nets. If this is not accurate, can someone remove it? Thank you! 216.243.30.3 (talk) 21:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have changed the sentence to fit better with the information in the reference. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Why remove this text?

 * '''Dolphins, particularly the bottlenose dolphin (Tursiops truncatus), are among the most captivating creatures of the sea, renowned for their intelligence, agility, and complex social behaviors. Understanding their anatomy is crucial for appreciating their unique adaptations to an aquatic environment. This summary explores the physical structure and adaptations of bottlenose dolphins, highlighting their evolutionary features and physiological marvels.
 * External Anatomy
 * Body Shape and Size
 * Bottlenose dolphins exhibit a streamlined, fusiform body shape, ideal for swift and efficient movement through water. They typically range in length from 2 to 4 meters (6.6 to 13 feet) and can weigh between 150 to 650 kilograms (330 to 1430 pounds), with males generally larger than females. This sleek body form minimizes drag and aids in achieving speeds of up to 35 km/h (22 mph).
 * Coloration and Skin
 * Their skin is smooth and rubbery, often described as leathery due to a thick layer of epidermis. The coloration varies from light gray to slate gray on the dorsal (upper) side, blending to a lighter shade on the ventral (under) side. This countershading acts as camouflage, making it harder for predators to spot them from both above and below.
 * Dorsal Fin and Flippers
 * A prominent feature of the bottlenose dolphin is its dorsal fin, located on the midline of the back. This fin helps with stability while swimming and can vary in shape and size among individuals. Dolphins also possess pectoral flippers, which are used primarily for steering and stabilizing rather than propulsion. These flippers contain bones homologous to the human arm and hand, demonstrating their evolutionary link to terrestrial ancestors.
 * Tail Fluke
 * The powerhouse of dolphin locomotion is the tail fluke, which propels them through the water. Composed of tough connective tissue, the fluke moves up and down to generate thrust. The shape and musculature of the tail fluke vary slightly among different dolphin species, influencing their swimming abilities.
 * Internal Anatomy
 * Skeletal System
 * Internally, dolphins have a skeleton adapted for aquatic life. Their bones are generally lighter than those of land mammals, aiding buoyancy, while their limbs have evolved into streamlined flippers without external digits. The skull is elongated and houses a large brain relative to body size, emphasizing their cognitive capabilities.
 * Respiratory System
 * Breathing is a conscious effort for dolphins, as they are voluntary breathers. They surface to exhale through a single blowhole located on top of their head. This blowhole is equipped with a muscular flap that seals it shut when submerged, preventing water from entering the respiratory system.
 * Cardiovascular System
 * Dolphins possess a highly efficient cardiovascular system adapted to diving and swimming. Their heart, which is larger and more muscular than that of terrestrial mammals of similar size, can adjust its rate depending on the dolphin’s activity level. This adaptation allows them to conserve oxygen and withstand the physiological demands of deep dives.
 * Digestive System
 * As carnivorous hunters, dolphins have a simplified digestive tract optimized for digesting fish, squid, and crustaceans. Their teeth are conical and interlocking, perfect for catching and holding prey. Digestion is rapid, with the stomach and intestines efficiently extracting nutrients from their diet.
 * Sensory and Nervous Systems
 * Brain and Intelligence
 * Dolphins are renowned for their intelligence, which is reflected in their complex social behaviors and problem-solving abilities. Their brain is large and highly convoluted, suggesting advanced cognitive capabilities. The cerebral cortex, associated with higher functions such as reasoning and sensory processing, is well-developed.
 * Echolocation
 * A hallmark of dolphin adaptation is echolocation, a sophisticated sensory system that allows them to navigate and locate prey by emitting high-frequency clicks and interpreting the returning echoes. The melon, a fatty organ located on their forehead, focuses and directs these sound waves, enabling precise detection of objects underwater.
 * Vision and Hearing
 * Dolphins have excellent vision both in and out of water, aided by large, well-developed eyes adapted for underwater vision. They can also hear a broad range of frequencies, essential for communication and echolocation. Their ears are located behind the eyes and covered by a protective flap, maintaining streamlined hydrodynamics.
 * Reproductive Anatomy and Lifecycle
 * Reproduction
 * Bottlenose dolphins reach sexual maturity between 5 to 13 years of age, depending on environmental factors and gender. Mating occurs throughout the year, with females giving birth to a single calf after a gestation period of about 12 months. Calves are born tail-first to prevent drowning and are nursed by their mothers, relying on maternal care and protection.
 * Social Structure
 * Dolphins are highly social animals, often forming large pods that facilitate cooperative hunting and social interactions. These pods can vary in size and composition, with individuals displaying complex social hierarchies and communication through vocalizations, body language, and tactile behaviors.
 * Conservation and Conclusion
 * Understanding the anatomy of bottlenose dolphins not only deepens our appreciation for their evolutionary adaptations but also underscores the importance of conservation efforts to protect their marine habitats. Threats such as habitat degradation, pollution, entanglement in fishing gear, and human disturbance pose significant challenges to their survival.
 * In conclusion, the anatomy of bottlenose dolphins reveals a marvel of evolution finely tuned for life in the oceans. From their streamlined bodies and advanced sensory systems to their complex social behaviors and cognitive abilities, these creatures exemplify the beauty and adaptability of marine life. Preserving their habitats and ensuring their well-being is crucial for maintaining the biodiversity and ecological balance of our oceans. Moosebag10  ( chatter''' ) 19:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Because none of it is referenced and because the tone is not encyclopaedic; as written it expresses only your opinions ("...only deepens our appreciation...", "...are among the most captivating creatures of the sea...", "...highlighting their evolutionary features and physiological marvels."). David notMD (talk) 21:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bottlenose dolphin


text:
Chinese restaurant (disambiguation)

A Chinese restaurant is a food establishment serving Chinese cuisine. The term can also refer to:
 * Restaurants in China
 * Chinese restaurant syndrome, a fallacy purportedly caused by glutamate which occurs naturally in plants, meats and seafood.
 * Chinese restaurant process (a concept in probability theory)
 * "The Chinese Restaurant", a second-season episode of Seinfeld
 * Chinese Restaurant, a reality show presented by HBS, starring Zhao Wei, Huang Xiaoming, Zhou Dongyu
 * A Cantonese restaurant, popular in Hong Kong and southern China

title: Chinese restaurant (disambiguation)


text:
User talk:Mrs.Medha

Hi

Thanks for your contribution the the Poetry page. I'm moving your contribution to the talk:Poetry page as it needs some work as it stands. Please see the NPOV page and the other help and style pages to get an idea of what I mean. Once you have become familiar with the site, I hope you will continue to make useful contributions.

Thanks. Bmills 12:17, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mrs.Medha