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Talk:Cosmogony

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 15 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Vai29. Peer reviewers: Skalaola.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Big Bang Irrelevant?
I wanted to get some opinions first, so I didn't edit right away. Please tell me if this makes sense; In the article's own opening words / lede; Therefore, big bang does not belong in this article. I agree with the above. If Cosmogony is the subject, then the article should stick to an explanation of what that study involves, not launch right away into a theory of how the cosmos might have come into existence. There is far too much of that on Wikipedia -- it has become a platform to assert personal biases and to exclude conflicting opinions. 2600:8801:BE26:2700:9D22:62C3:568A:E8F8 (talk) 17:45, 16 June 2021 (UTC) James.
 * Cosmogony is "any scientific theory concerning the coming into existence (or origin) of either the cosmos (or universe), or the so-called 'reality' of sentient beings."
 * Big Bang covers the "the early development of the universe", NOT the origins of the universe.

In fact; "A common misconception is that the Big Bang provides a theory of cosmic origins. It doesn't.  The Big Bang is a theory ... that delineates cosmic evolution from a split second after whatever happened to bring the universe into existence, but it says nothing at all about time zero itself."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.14.171.47 (talk) 23:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

To summarize the above comment: The Big Bang is irrelevant to cosmogony because it doesn't cover "time zero". Considering the "Cosmogony compared with cosmology" section, I would disagree. It is relevant to the early universe, but not before 10-43s, therefore it belongs in "Cosmogony", but shouldn't be heavily emphasized.Brad (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Yep I guess what I meant was that it shouldn't take up 2/3 (or any!) of the opening paragraphs / heading / lede section. At most it belongs perfectly fine in that "Cosmogony compared with cosmology" section, and while at it; this distinction (cause of time zero vs. development of time from planck inclusive onward) should be emphasized there too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.178.31 (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Theocritus' Cosmogony
I think this article should include something about cosmogonies as a literature and oral history - for example Theocritus' Cosmogony. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.193.5 (talk • contribs)

I agree -- Cosmogony was originally a religious/mythic concept, not scientific. Even Hesiod's Theogony is (in part) a cosmogony, to ignore many other ancient cosmological traditions important to the history of Western Civilization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.68.206 (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. My contribution to the article is to expand and organize the article, and also tie "Cosmogony" to the humanities (i.e. creation myths like Hesiod's theogony)Vai29 (talk) 00:44, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

 * Personogony (simplified as persogony) is creation from a precosmic person; why some Greeks confuse pretopological space with the adjective precosmic?

Were filters of sets self-causal and precosmic? Add a link, not merely a generic poster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4124:F000:5D40:F8F5:14F:C9E5 (talk) 13:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

"Pre-scientific" Genesis
(Note added 2-Jan-2003) This comment refers to an edit. In the first paragraph that explains what cosmogony is there was a reference to the Biblical book of Genesis as containing a "pre-scientific cosmogony". However, it is a cosmogony, and one that at least tens of thousands of scientists in recent years have come to affirm, using whatever set of objective criteria one wishes to use for categorizing scientists. --The only editing done was to remove the adjective "pre-scientific".

 * Fair enough. I put the adjective in not intending to prejudge the issue of the truth or falsity of the Genesis account, but I'm not concerned if it's removed. For the record: by 'pre-scientific' I meant 'before the advent of science', not 'incorrect according to science'. Toby 11:07, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

GR/GUT
General relativity is not a GUT JeffBobFrank 20:46, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I changed "metted out" to "meted out", but it doesn't make sense to me (I checked Collins and the SOED). Isidore 23:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

This page is stupid. The author should be shot - A GUT is a theory that unifies those found in the Standard Model. None exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vugdeox (talk • contribs)

Although I don't agree with the way it was put, the previous comment has some validity, although a GUT is not as rigorously applied by physicists as that commentator put. Regardless, I have provided a major redraft of the page, because it was disjointed, and contained a lot of info that was not strictly relating to the subject matter, was unsubstantiated, or seemed to be something of a personal commentary. I am sure the person who put it there had good reasons, but the application was not well put. My edit could be improved, but time will out. I haven't added that cosmogony need not be logical. If others think this should be added, they might do so, remembering that this kind of page tends to attract the fringe, so word it reverently, perhaps. Centroyd 24th September 2004

I'm pretty sure the discussions in this page previously appeared in Social Text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.10.74 (talk • contribs)

Could the Big Bang be the other side of a Black Hole when it formed?
Has anyone ever thought of this very much? I'm no scientist but have always been interested in astronomy. I always try to watch shows about space when I can and can usually understand what the astronomers, physicists, cosmologists are talking about when they are using layman terms and analogies but would struggle if I had to see all the technical stuff.

Anyway, assuming the Big Bang is real, which I lean toward, how can matter just grow out of nothing? I mean that material had to come from somewhere. To me it seems that a black hole formed in another universe and sucked the matter from that universe into this one. The amount of matter the black hole sucked in could determine the mass of the universe. I think we could determine this by finding the state of matter at the time of the big bang and when it enters a Black Hole. How similar/different are they? A black hole formed in this universe could have a new universe inside of it also. Does this seem plausible? I don't know how I can talk to Stephen Hawking or Kip Thorne so I can't ask them about it so I ask fellow wikipedians who might have an answer. MrMurph101 03:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

 * But if the black hole reached a certain weight, it would become a white dwarf, so there's no way an entire universe would be sucked into a black hole. --Scotteh 08:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, someone else than you had thought of this. :-) I never considered what was being said above, and if true, then it would bust a theory like this according to our current understanding of black holes. But it sure is an elegant theory; that our universe is what an "inside" of a black hole really is like. And that the big bang was simply just a point of formation of the hole. That could also imply that our universe would be one among many others in a "superuniverse". Or maybe one could theorize that it would be an infinite number of universes like this, with their own black holes forming other universes. ;-) As for "matter coming out of nothing", it has been shown that energy and matter are just two sides of the same coin. Energy can convert into matter, so it would seem that there's your explanation of this. The bigger question would really be -- where did the Big Bang gain its energy from? -- Northgrove 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be an elegant theory. I don't know how it holds up but some theories that are originally scoffed at may become the dominant one :).  Just like the moon origin theory.  MrMurph101 00:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, it still fails to say where the energy/matter originally came from. It just shunts the question into a conveniently inaccessible "other universe" :) GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 16:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This only makes sense if you regard the Big Bang Theory as not falsified. Evidence exists (such as observations showing that redshifts obey a step function and are not continuous, by Halton Arp) that disproves the Big Bang ever happened. Dmacgr 22 (talk) 21:50, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Although it is not (yet?) an accepted scientific view, I think that the "Big Bang" is what is happening in every jetting black hole, as typically found in an active galactic nucleus SMBH. The ingested matter-energy is being deconstructed into fundamental particles (beneath the standard model) and the cosmogenic Big Bang timeline reflects the stages of plasma jetting from the SMBH, cooling, then decaying into standard matter particles and forming a "spacetime" condensate that permeates the universe. Note that this is a far more parsimonious explanation than current theories. I am responding to this talk section question, and planting a flag, because per WP:OR ideas like this can not go into the main article until they are a scientific consensus. J Mark Morris (talk) 16:22, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Unless This Suggestion Is Completely Outside the Box Here ...
I would like to see some mention in the article of the idea that the universe is a natural self-reproducing system.

(1) This possibility is suggested by the stream of functional links that begins with the big bang:

Big bang → precursors of matter → atomic particles → atoms of the lighter elements → clouds of gasses → stars and galaxies → heavy elements → intra-galactic matter-rich clouds → later-generation stars and planets → life-bearing planets → evolutionary systems → intelligent life forms → ?

Each element in the stream functions in such a way as to lead to the appearance of the next element, and the idea that our appearance in the scheme of things provides a natural point at which the stream can be turned into a cycle (by replacing the question mark above with “new big bang”) is at least an interesting possibility. (I also actively dislike the idea that we are the only incompletely functional element in the stream – i.e., the only element with no output phase. But that’s just an aesthetic thing.)

(2) The idea of a completely natural self-reproducing universe is especially interesting because it is religiously neutral (except to religious fundamentalists): (a) The first self-reproducing universe in the stream could have appeared spontaneously by some purely natural process, or (b) it could have been created by a supernatural being. And for such a being (with an infinite amount of time on its hands and wanting a universe around to begin with), the odds are infinite that a single universe of the sort that we live in will not satisfy its eternal wants.

Thus, creating a system that just keeps going and going and going by itself instead a stream of one-shot stands would just be working smart.

So, what do you think? Does the idea belong in the article?

If so, I have always liked the name “Sapiens Hypothesis” for the idea.

If not, I will be happy to withdraw the suggestion.

Liberalpro 19:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Unless you have a reliable source that verifiably explains, names, and describes your idea it does not belong in Wikipedia as per Wikipedia's no original research policy. --ScienceApologist 15:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Note that if this cycle ever does become scientific consensus, say by replacing that ending question mark with a "jetting SMBH" and replacing the first item "Big Bang" with "jetting SMBH" then a term that would be helpful to describe the cycle would be "emergence". As noted WP:NOR prevents changing the article until scientific consensus is reached. J Mark Morris (talk) 16:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Silly comment
"A scientific examination of cosmogony using existing physical models would face many challenges. For example, equations used to develop models of the origin do not in themselves explain how the equations came to be in the first place."

Equations are written by humans. All a cosmogony has to do is allow intelligent sepcies to arise.1Z 02:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What I meant was: "A scientific examination of cosmogony using existing physical models would face many challenges. For example, equations used to develop models of the origin do not in themselves explain how the conditions of the universe that the equations model came to be in the first place."

Not silly, I just expected too much of the cognitive skills of my audience. Centroyd 02:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

hello! =) a silly little comment.
"There is some ambiguity between the two terms, for example, the cosmological argument from theology regarding the existence of God is technically an appeal to cosmogonical rather than cosmological ideas."

a god? that sounds kind of "monotheistic-centric"... isn't there a more general version that allows for gods? i feel left out... being a polytheist and all, y'know!

cheers!

 * Perhaps you could read it as theistic rather than monotheistic? Just my silly comment, Julia Rossi (talk) 06:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

External link to "Why the Universe Exists"
Although I believe the editor who removed the link interpreted the Wikipedia rules correctly and acted in good faith, I have restored the link because I believe a certain proportion of readers who arrive at the Cosmogony page and happen to follow the link will find it thought provoking and interesting. It is clear what the externally linked article is and is not, and I think those who are not interested in such unauthoritative speculation will simply click straight back to Wikipedia. I don't think the externally linked article is deliberately misleading or ill-intended and think rather that it provides useful food for thought that would be out of place in the encyclopedia proper. Please read the externally linked article and judge for yourself and act as you see fit. I have said my piece and hope I am a reasonable person, so I will not restore the link again if it is removed again.--Vibritannia (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We're an encyclopedia. People who are looking for "Rampant speculation" can and should use Google.  Thousands of of people write speculation on all sorts of subjects it is entirely inappropriate for us to link to some of it without an encyclopedic reason. -- SiobhanHansa 13:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is a very reasonable point. I can invent one encyclopedic reason: the article begins "Cosmogony is any theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the universe, or an origin belief about how reality came to be", and the external link is an example of one. Giving concrete examples of what you are talking about is a good thing to do. The external link is speculative, but that is the nature of cosmogonies - nobody knows for sure yet. The external link is not authoritative, but in such a speculative arena, is it even valid to talk of authoritative cosmogonies. Maybe this is just post-rationalization on my part. --Vibritannia (talk) 10:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If a theory is well known and respected enough to be covered in the article, a link to it could be a great addition. But links to other theories are simply a violation of our NPOV policy. -- SiobhanHansa 16:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

On "Planck time limitations to cosmogony"
I definitely agree with the marking of the "Planck time limitations to cosmogony" section of the article; it does not seem to address in any meaningful or large manner the actual article at hand. Could someone edit it down to be more on-topic? If not, I suggest we drop that section entirely in the near future. Exerda (talk) 16:37, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The content used to be more readable - it should not be dropped. The content of this section has been in the article for years before and after your comment.  A challenge for clarification, noted in Richard Feynman Video - The Douglas Robb Memorial Lectures - Part 4: New Queries, is the absence of a model for material reality.  Like the Maya who had no model, but by counting could predict; we count turns of spin to predict, likewise in the absence of a model.  The real brain (who is well aware of what is unknown) who clarifies this section should remove the  template. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess the section was removed (too bad), but want to note that the current "Overview" section contains the sentence fragment "...at there is currently no theoretical model that explains the earliest moments of the universe's existence (during the Planck time)...". The Wikilinked article actually contains no mention of "THE Planck Time", though one can intuit that the first 10-43s or so is meant. Is there a better Wikilink (some subsection of the Big Bang article?) that can be linked to? I don't have time or inclination to fix this myself right now... Andyvphil (talk) 08:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

paradox of causation
Regarding the paradox of causation (if every event requires a cause then what caused the first event), if we imagine space as being completely filled with (possibly discrete) 'events' then, instead of saying that event A at location A was caused by event B, we can say that event A was going to happen anyway but the form that the event took was 'influenced' by event B. In this view events are not 'caused' by other events rather they are merely 'influenced' by them. The first event would therefore not require a cause. just-emery (talk) 23:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

 * If time (as a dimension) was created at the same moment as the physical dimensions of which we are aware, is there any reason that once time exists, things always will have had happened in the way that they do/did? (History would then start to exist at the same time as the present, in the manner of two ends working out from the middle. Consider time having both negative adn positive characteristics, so that one can then see the cause-effect relationship being time reversed. Apparently there is nothing much to prevent this from being so.) Just a thought from someone working on a Sunday who wants to go home....85.158.139.228 (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

 * See Stephen Hawking "A Brief History of Time, CHAPTER 9: THE ARROW OF TIME
 * I was interested to see just now that this was apparently the (one?) chapter from which I remembered Hawkins saying "the universe must be expanding at very close to the critical rate at which it would just avoid recollapse". How his argument for this is affected by the now-existing evidence that expansion is accelerating is unclear to me. Nor do I follow his argument as to why collapse might cause a change in the direction of the arrow of time, or some abrupt change in the suitability of the universe for intelligent life, although he seems to be saying he had a change of heart on this (or not - as I say I'm not following him here).
 * I say it's interesting to me because, if you have a universe of sufficient size and understand matter to be Schrodinger probability densities then an infinitude of time should cause an equally infinite nested series of ylems (albeit at nearly inconceivable distances in time, one from the other) as a simple application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle). And almost all of the resulting Big Bangs that did not immediately collapse because they were too small would, the improbability curve being so steep, have just enough energy to expand at the critical rate.
 * This is an idea that I thought I got from Hawking, whose "Brief History" I first encountered as an audio tape. But when I later looked at the book I couldn't find it. And the idea that smaller ylems collapse is still missing...
 * It does solve the problem of a time boundary. That the universe exists is still a mystery, but once it exists Big Bangs reproduce without limit.
 * Though Hawking likes the idea of each Big Bang having its own cosmological rules and constants, which this contradicts somewhat, I still think I must have got this from him. Could it be in one edition of the book and not the other? Andyvphil (talk) 09:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

content
it seems to me odd that an article about the theories on the beginning of the world does not include theories about the beginning of the world, scientific or otherwise (though I'd imagine 'otherwise' is just 'God did it'). It's not exactly an obscure topic. 99.244.97.75 (talk) 19:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

→I agree. I believe there is more than one scientific theory about the origin(s) of the universe. The most common one may be the Big Bang Theory, but there is strong evidence (including the quantization of red-shifts) that disprove it. More discussion is needed. Dmacgr 22 (talk) 21:45, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Actually, Big Bang is a theory about the development of the universe, not its origins. And yes, this article should not, contrary to the italicized territorial claim as to what it is about, be limited to scientific Cosmonogy. This sort of thing [] is in the ambit of its title. If you want to exclude it, change the title. Andyvphil (talk) 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Cosmogony = Solar System?
From the article, at 11:17 Central Time 2009-Oct-16: "In the specialized context of space science and astronomy, the term refers to theories of creation of (and study of) the Solar System.".

I thought "cosmogony" was related to the creation of the universe, not the solar system. Am I wrong?

-Pat (talk) 16:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I put in a rough fix for this obvious error. Only took 4.5 years... "cos·mog·o·ny [koz-mog-uh-nee] noun, plural cos·mog·o·nies. a theory or story of the origin and development of the universe, the solar system, or the earth-moon system. Origin: 1860–65;  < Greek kosmogonía  creation of the world. See cosmo-, -gony" Andyvphil (talk) 09:37, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Where did the universe come from
Wikipedia is not a forum for debate. If you would like to contribute, please use sources. You may have made good points, but please cite. And to the person who linked to a Christian website refuting information in the TALK PAGE on Cosmogony on Wikipedia: don't post useless links on the discussion page. 72.199.100.223 (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

 * All of those will be lost like tears in rain. 83.251.170.27 (talk) 05:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Cosmogony
Cosmogony, or cosmogeny, is any theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the universe, or about how reality came to be.

 * Say consistency and inconsistency are the origin of the universe. What is true is just what is consistent. What exists is just what is true. Inconsistency we have ring-fenced as fundamental uncertainty. Uncertainty makes change logically necessary. Time is change. Therefore consistency and inconsistency are the origin of temporal existence.

 * Reason reflects only what is consistent. The origin of the universe is consistency and inconsistency, so that origin cannot have a reason. Since it cannot have a reason, it cannot have a cause. Therefore consistency and inconsistency are the uncaused origin of the universe.

From the same place that I pointed out before. --Vibritannia (talk) 11:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Dunno what your point is. If it's that "Cosmognony" is being improperly limited to scientific theories, that may be justified, but in any case that's the thrust of the article as it stands now. There was some unsourced statement about the solar system (noted in thread above) which made no sense in that established context so there may in fact be a related larger problem. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article needs improvements. I changed a few of the more puffy terms to more neutral ones and was met with a reply that my edits were POV and I needed to come to Talk. Generally, generic statements of "Tons of people" or "Nearly everyone" are considered puffery, (See WP:PUFFERY). What is the reliable source to say that "There is vast consensus among physicists" that the Big Bang is their personal belief as to the universe's origin? Did someone do a survey of all physicists? Do we just assume this? Overgeneralizations are not good form. I changed it to the more inspecific "Physicists have" because it is true without question. If you have a specific number, or a specific set, it would also be fine, but how do you know there is this vast consensus? Do all of these physicists have the same belief about the theory? Are there competing theories? How vast are those beliefs? Is it possible to believe in more than one theory? Getting off track here, but the point is, just saying "vast consensus" is fairly vague, and nearly everyone agrees with me on that. ;) -- Avanu (talk) 14:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This article is not about "personal beliefs", it's about a scientific theory (and not "theory" as you used it). The material is an accurate summary of the body of the text, which is well sourced. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, when the article says "vast consensus among physicists", I assume the meaning is that among the thousands of physicists there is near perfect agreement on whether each of them believes in the Big Bang as their personal understanding of cosmology. Perhaps there is a different way to view that statement? And as for how I used "theory", I didn't put it in quotes, nor did I somehow misuse it. (For example, see this story or within Wikipedia, Big Bang). I would also like to remind you that this article is on "Cosmogony" not "Cosmology". In other words, while physicists may have a special regard for the Big Bang, it isn't necessarily the #1 theory or "theory" from a cosmogonical point of view, as such, I moved it down into a more appropriate section, and made the other puffery-related changes simply because they need to be made for style's sake. -- Avanu (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the article header and the first line of the lede. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

"so-called 'reality' of sentient beings"
What is the import of this phrase, specifically the words "so-called" and the quotation marks around the word "reality"? What sentient being would deny its reality, or have a different word for it other than "reality"?--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 04:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Limitations to Naturalism
The "Epistemological limitations" section seems to contain various insufficiently clear and/or unsubstantiated assertions. For example, that "some scientists" question whether naturalism can provide an explanation of the origins of the universe. For one thing, it is not clear if we are referring to (a) metaphysical naturalism (b) methodological naturalism, or (c) both, and furthermore, in what sense these aspects of naturalism constitute an honest limitation to cosmogony.

We also have the phrase "observationalists", which seems even more ambiguous. Almost any scientist could be classified as an "observationalist" in the sense of relying on empirical observations as a reliable source of knowledge about the universe, and drawing inferences upon the basis of observational consequences of experiments and theories. In fact, millions if not billions of human beings could be classified as "observationalists", as almost any reasonable layman acknowledges observation as a source of veridical knowledge.

The comments on theism seem to be an exercise in turning an article into the brazen opinions and/or bald assertions of one user or series of users. For example, stating that "Theistic explanations for origins...are often dismissed as 'God-of-gaps-type fallacies or arguments from ignorance'. This claim is not sufficiently substantiated. The claim that "such explanations tend to provide no explanations for the existence of the deity" is false. Typically, theists argue that God is eternal, and therefore it is not reasonable to ask for the origin of God. I'm not sympathetic to the theist viewpoint by any stretch of the imagination, but even I can recognize that these assertions are not sufficiently supported.

Another claim, that "quantum mechanics gives an independent motivation to challenge the principle of sufficient reason" is utterly erroneous, and bordering on nonsensical. There is nothing about the formalism of quantum theory that challenges this principle, or could even be interpreted as doing so.

It seems like someone decided to go on Wikipedia and have a field day with brazen opinions and uncorroborated assertions, to the utter detriment of the quality of the article. I would suggest that either this section be heavily revised, or simply removed altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Aiello (talk • contribs) 21:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Big Bang: Vast Consensus, means Majority wins
Is it because the Big Bang theory is accepted by the majority of scientists, it "wins"? Is the Big Bang theory not unscientific than any other "myth"? -Polytope4d (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * To answer your first question: yes, see scientific consensus. To answer your second question: no, see Big Bang. Since you obviously have access to Wikipedia, feel free to search for and read articles for yourself. If have more refined or specific questions in the future you might also like Wikipedia's reference desk. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:19, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

cosmogony has nothing to do with the meaning of life
Just erased this part... science can offer an objective explanation to certain questions, but it can't give us a reason to exist, and quantum fluctuation has nothing to do with love or art, however whimsical that may sound... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.39.126 (talk) 19:14, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of capitalization of universe
There is request for comment about capitalization of the word universe at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters. Please participate. SchreiberBike talk 00:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Notification of request for comment
An RfC has been commenced at MOSCAPS Request for comment - Capitalise universe.

Cinderella157 (talk) 03:23, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

"The main disagreement among scientists"
The main disagreement among scientists is whether time existed "before" the emergence of our universe or not. -- really? I was under the impression that Big Bang Physics is pretty much committed to time being very much tied to the big bang (i.e., there could not have been, in any sense, time before the emergence of the universe) - but also don't some models of time suggest that pre hyperinflation, 'subjective' time appears to be infinite - and, rather, the speed of light slows down exponentially. (which, 'objectively' means that the universe started around 14-billion years ago within our own time reference. I am out of my depth here - but clearly I doubt the sentence. (20040302 (talk) 11:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC))

 * Has somebody looked into that yet? Gonna remove it if nobody finds a ref for it - for the "main disagreement" bit alone anyway.--Fixuture (talk) 00:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

 * The 'Sean M. Carroll' issue of two competing types of explanations for the origins of the singularity, stating that it is "the main disagreement between the scientists" is still there, and yet from what I can get, it's just Carroll vs. everyone else. Moreover, the question that physicists do continue to ask is poorly represented as stated: AFAIK, it's not about whether time is a fundamental, so much as the question of how the universe (including time) can spontaneously arise.  Diagrams, like the one on this page (Universe_expansion.png) are perpetrating a mis-direction (if not a flat-out error), which is the idea that time (and it's measure) is a universal and a constant which we know to be valid only as  a newtonian approximation.  Cosmogony really has little time for Newtonian physics, and cartesian co-oordinates don't help much in modern physics. As I mention above, if one were able to go 'back in time' up to the big bang, the apparent measure of time would appear to be infinite - there would be no beginning - but in terms of our own reference of time, time itself arose out of the big bang singularity.  I'm pretty sure all major physicists (bar Carroll et al. - who, I believe, are trying to allow for God) in the field are 100% certain that time is a function of the BB singularity. (20040302 (talk) 07:04, 20 June 2017 (UTC))

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"The Big Bang theory, which states that the universe expanded from and was a singularity whose radius was zero, is widely accepted by physicists."
This is wrong both grammatically and factually. It is not in the premise of the Big Bang theory that the universe started from a singularity whose radius was zero. Quoting from the article on Big Bang: "Physicists are undecided whether this means the universe began from a singularity, or that current knowledge is insufficient to describe the universe at that time". In fact, many physicists think that the concept of singularity is just a problem to be solved - rather than an accurate depiction of what the universe was like before the Big Bang.

The reason singularity pops up is because Einstein's equations of General Relativity, when solved, give an infinite density. However, it is widely believed that General Relativity at such levels breaks down, and the universe is instead governed by quantum mechanics, as explained here.

What is certainly not the case is that the universe had a zero radius. Current evidence suggests that the universe is flat - and, therefore, infinite. If that is the case, it must have been infinite before the Big Bang, too - as well as infinitely dense.

Trout slaps to for insistently keeping this obviously erroneous sentence (jk, given what you know about me, your edits are understandable). O l J a  00:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You know what? I'd just re-examined your change and compared it again with the Big Bang article, and I realised that your wording is indeed a better representation of what it says in the Big Bang article lede. So I reverted myself and was just about to let you know on your talk page, when I got the notification here. Yep, I got that one wrong, and I'm happy to hold my hand up to it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, nice and easy! I wish the other editors had the same attitude. O l J a 00:42, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Preferable to use title "cosmogenesis"?
"Cosmogenesis" seems to be more fluent, and cosmogony not so much. Even the way its used in the first line is ungrammatical: :"Cosmogony is any model concerning the origin of either the cosmos or universe." The word "a" seems to be needed in front of "cosmogony." -Inowen (nlfte) 05:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Bibliography/Sources
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmology-theology/ Gregory, Andrew. Ancient Greek Cosmogony. Bristol Classic Press, 2011. Campion, Nicholas. Astrology and Cosmology. NY Press: June 11 2012 Steven Weinberg. Cosmology. New York: Oxford University Press, 2008 https://www.britannica.com/science/cosmology-astronomy https://www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths.html

Franz, Marlie-Louise Von. Creation Myths: Revised Edition. Shambhala, May 9 2017

Scully, Stephen. Hesiod's Theogony: from Near Eastern Creation Myths to Paradise Lost. NY: Oxford University Press, October 1 2015 Vai29 (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

make page: Precosmic state
The state of the uncertain object which was something between nothingness and the initial moment of the Big Bang.

It is very important to mention, that for many physicists, there wasn't any "precosmic state". This is very important because it might lead to different conclusions about the first moments of the Big Bang.
 * adjective: precosmic****

==nilogony (nil + -o- + -gony) erroneous theory/creation from nothing itself vs topogony (topology, topological algebra + -o- + -gony) creation due to solvability / correct topological algorithms necessarily exist (when is probabilistic and within a range of uncertainty; how is dictated within the rules of the specific hyperset these universes belong)==
 * Richard Dawkins is a nilogonist, but without a degree on physics and without any mathematical model
 * Laurence Krauss has literary but not mathematical suggestions on nilogony
 * Max Tegmark and Sean M. Carroll which are more intelligent and I also like them, the are topogonists; they are not stupid to claim that nothing itself may express entropy as some form of existence/objective reality (one out of many possibilities is a universe)

Nothing necessarily doesn't exist. If it existed it would have been something. Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz was extremely intelligent on other stuff but stupid on his definition of nothing. Not simply wrong, but stupid. Nothing is a human notion of non-existence. Non-existence isn't the vacuum. Non-existence "is" eternal and unchangeable. Well we cannot attribute a verb to the non-physicality of nothing; but as a notion nothing "is" permanently non-existing. If something exists, it wasn't created because of the nature of nothing (-ness) but because of the nature or its own potential (-ity).

Sean M. Carroll and Max Tegmark are important human beings because they are clever to speak and mathematize (= express mathematically) on that. It's not the nature of nothing which creates something; but the potential (-ity) of that particular something, within a probabilistic cloud of other somethings which allow it to be created. Stephen Hawking was intelligent enough to understand that "a probabilistic cloud of other somethings allow it to be created" but he died young. You might claim that Stephen Hawking died old but no, he had many things in mind. Ask people close to him. Stephen Hawking wanted to express mathematically that "a probabilistic cloud of other somethings allow it (= the subject of cosmogony) to be created"... some cladistics or sets of universes which are algorithms of topological algebra... We shouldn't cry, but do our best. Claiming that within the nature of nothing itself (which is a human notion and not a physical actuality) there is the potential of something is wrong (it means that your brain has extreme entropy and now is nothing). One definition of nothing is "not attributable, not existing, strictly and permanently non-entropic[al])

Nothing is nothing. Study logic and metalogic. Otherwise you are lazy and silly. Silly not used as an expletive, but as a description. Only something can become a cause for and an attribution to something; even if that initial something is a probabilistic cloud of the future object, thus a wave function before it became fragmented into micro-events = entropy. Mathematical correctness of a topological system (which creates a process and not a static world, because a static world is hard to get tested even if it existed... but ok, it might not include data-processing machines) necessarily creates it. Not all systems are mathematically compatible among each other (= there's no generic physics for all univeses / and not all univeses are parallel (-zeable, mathematically related).

Claiming that nothing itself might create something it means: 1. you don't know logic, 2. you're unwise because you don't understand nothing and entropy which are the most fundamental notions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:411C:4C00:CB3:D88C:6719:FBEA (talk) 20:56, 16 June 2019 (UTC)   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:411C:E600:255A:73A6:5C1:938C (talk)

Nihilogony (cosmogony from the actions of permanent inexistence) versus logicogony (cosmogony from logically possible physical foundations)
Logicogony is hypernymic to axiomatogony, topogony, programmogony, etc (they're versions of logical procedurality [complicated procedures]).

A major topic is self-causation. Both the systems physicalist universe and the system God–universe are necessarily self-caused. God is a person, but a personhood-yielding computer: 1. has spacetime as a prerequisite (space for the personhood-yielding computer = brain to exist and time to process information), thus spacetime is more fundamental than personhood and the personhood-yielding computer (even idealized by violating Landauer's principle, or via reversible computing which produces informational entropy = useless intraprocedural data), 2. is operating according to logic (mathematical or allomathematical = different axiomatic systems are possible [the supernatural is impossible because it doesn't have rigorous specific foundations], but they[allomathematics]'re still logical and mathematically describable). Mentally ill people don't violate the laws of nature; they simply have dysfunctional wiring, false semantic labeling, procedural center damage etc.

God doesn't have free will because he cannot violate logic. Personhood is the result of personhood-yielding computers = brains, which logically process information. Mentally ill brains don't fundamentally violate logic, but instead have impaired structure thus function. The supernatural isn't only unreachable and unteachable but it's also scientifically non-hypothesizeable. It couldn't be anyhow. It lacks rigorous foundational specifics. Supernaturalists describe the supernatural via vague empiricism without any specific logical foundations. / degrees of personhood in metaphysics: Some Gods like the Japanese kami aren't cosmogonic. Shintoism is a weak metaphysical personocracy (krátos here means dominance). Even an impersonal supernatural field supposedly either helps humans (and personhood-bearers) or it just applies anthropic cosmological esthetics outside logic and science. Thus even an impersonal divine field retains a degree of anthropic biasing. A hollow supernaturalism (as a joke? an ill-sophistry) is the one that doesn't accept any violation of physics and logic, not even for exological cosmic esthetics. Physicalism is the claim that everything that exists has logical foundations. The simple philosophical causal closure hypothesis is erroneous, because it doesn't take into account the axiomatic prerequisites for physical foundations, the logical self-causation series, the vast majority of open axiomaticity (axiomatic systems) and many other topics. One cannot resolve causality by forcing a closed system answer to a system that might be open. The physical world prerequisites can are hypernymic to the specific quantum foundations of our universe. / Overscientification is the claim without proof, that science is only about our universe, by using mathematics which aren't tautological (they are logically compatible) to physics (the mathematical axiomatic prerequisites as a proof tool are logically compatible but not tautological to the physical axiomatic prerequisites [self-causation via algorithmoid [program] self-interactions resulting in a more sound foundations; but physics can have an axiomatic tree as its foundations, being a program and not a list of unlinked axioms [the universe should have a coherent axiomaticity/ axiomatic foundations, and not separate axioms connected by magic. Physics has to be foundationally presented in a more coherent manner, but not necessarily as a closed axiomatic system [see: problems of axiomatic systems: incompleteness, inconsistency, uncalculability]]). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8B27:5500:E8B1:EBBE:FDD:980D (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Editing the page
I've noticed my edits to the page have been undone. This article is brimming with misleading information and amateurish explanations, so my impression is that it needs to be readily editable by anyone who cares to fix even a sentence of it.

Is it just my imagination, or have almost all of the problems identified here in the Talk section been completely ignored by the article's author(s)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:641:400:7B15:4DA2:1DD:5BCE:2A22 (talk) 22:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

create paragraph: Cosmogonic functional derivative

 * https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YlXfruWsFYQ

Regarding "Critical Mass Theory of the Origin of the Universe"
This section should be removed or completely reworked. It is unclear, grammatically incorrect, and lacks any legitimate citation, reference, or link to a related article. It reads like the author's opinion. LBlakeW (talk) 08:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This paragraph doesn't make sense
This is the third paragraph of the overview:

"It is generally accepted that the universe began at a point of singularity. When the singularity of the universe started to expand, the Big Bang occurred, which evidently began the universe. The other explanation, held by proponents such as Stephen Hawking, asserts that time did not exist when it emerged along with the universe. This assertion implies that the universe does not have a beginning, as time did not exist "prior" to the universe. Hence, it is unclear whether properties such as space or time emerged with the singularity and the known universe."

The phrase "other explanation" implies that Hawking and others don't believe that the universe began as a singularity which then expanded, i.e. the Big Bang. But Hawking definitely agreed with that theory, which is accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community.

A belief that time began when the universe began to expand doesn't conflict with a belief in the first two sentences. Just because Hawking didn't believe that the universe "began" with the Big Bang - in the sense that it couldn't have expanded "after" anything, if time began with its expansion - doesn't mean that he didn't believe that the Big Bang was the origin of the universe as we understand it.

So these aren't two different explanations for anything, and the "two explanations" in this paragraph don't even contradict one another. Does-she-talk (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

"It is generally accepted that the universe began at a point of singularity."
This appears to be simply false. It is generally accepted that quantum effects will become significant and remove the singularity. Note specifically the passage "I’m not making this up out of my head. Just yesterday I was involved in a long conversation with professors and post-doctoral researchers at Harvard, in which we discussed various exotic mathematical methods for exploring the inflationary epoch and the era before it. The possibility that there really is a singularity at the beginning of the universe never came up once." and "Yet all over the media and all over the web, we can find articles, including ones published just after this week’s cosmic announcement of new evidence in favor of inflation, that state with great confidence that in the Big Bang Theory the universe started from a singularity. So I’m honestly very confused. Who is still telling the media and the public that the universe really started with a singularity, or that the modern Big Bang Theory says that it does? I’ve never heard an expert physicist say that." Matt Strassler is a working theoretical physicist.

Reference to Zeus and Jupiter appropriate?
This comment is in the mythology section of the article: "For instance, the ruler of the gods in Greek mythology, Zeus, is similar to the ruler of the gods in Roman mythology, Jupiter."

While it may be accurate, I think it should be asked if it is appropriate for an example as it may lead the reader to think Zeus and Jupiter had more of a role in their respective cosmogonies then was actually believed or taught. In other words, it may perpetuate the trope that the ruler-god was also the creator when that wasn't necessarly the case in these mythologies.( I think). Did Zeus have any role in Greek cosmogony? 68.114.225.218 (talk) 03:24, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cosmogony


text:
Wüstite

Wüstite (FeO, sometimes also written as Fe0.95O) is a mineral form of mostly iron(II) oxide found with meteorites and native iron. It has a grey colour with a greenish tint in reflected light. Wüstite crystallizes in the isometric-hexoctahedral crystal system in opaque to translucent metallic grains. It has a Mohs hardness of 5 to 5.5 and a specific gravity of 5.88. Wüstite is a typical example of a non-stoichiometric compound.

Wüstite was named after Fritz Wüst (1860–1938), a German metallurgist and founding director of the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut für Eisenforschung (presently Max Planck Institute for Iron Research GmbH).

In addition to its type locality in Germany, it has been reported from Disko Island, Greenland; the Jharia coalfield, Jharkhand, India; and as inclusions in diamonds in a number of kimberlite pipes. It also is reported from deep sea manganese nodules.

Its presence indicates a highly reducing environment.

Wüstite redox buffer
Iron minerals on the Earth's surface are typically richly oxidized, forming hematite, with Fe3+ state, or in somewhat less oxidizing environments, magnetite, with a mixture of Fe3+ and Fe2+. Wüstite, in geochemistry, defines a redox buffer of oxidation within rocks at which point the rock is so reduced that Fe3+, and thus hematite, is absent.

As the redox state of a rock is further reduced, magnetite is converted to wüstite. This occurs by conversion of the Fe3+ ions in magnetite to Fe2+ ions. An example reaction is presented below:

The formula for magnetite is more accurately written as FeO·Fe2O3 than as Fe3O4. Magnetite is one part FeO and one part Fe2O3, rather than a solid solution of wüstite and hematite. Magnetite is termed a redox buffer because, until all Fe3+ present in the system is converted to Fe2+, the oxide mineral assemblage of iron remains wüstite-magnetite. Furthermore, the redox state of the rock remains at the same level of oxygen fugacity. Considering buffering the redox potential (Eh) in the Fe–O redox system, this can be compared to buffering the pH in the H+/OH− acid–base system of water.

Once the Fe3+ is consumed, then oxygen must be stripped from the system to further reduce it and wüstite is converted to native iron. The oxide mineral equilibrium assemblage of the rock becomes wüstite–magnetite–iron.

In nature, the only natural systems which are chemically reduced enough to even attain a wüstite–magnetite composition are rare, including carbonate-rich skarns, meteorites, fulgurites and lightning-affected rock, and perhaps the mantle where reduced carbon is present, exemplified by the presence of diamond or graphite.

Effects upon silicate minerals
The ratio of Fe2+ to Fe3+ within a rock determines, in part, the silicate mineral assemblage of the rock. Within a rock of a given chemical composition, iron enters minerals based on the bulk chemical composition and the mineral phases which are stable at that temperature and pressure. Iron may only enter minerals such as pyroxene and olivine if it is present as Fe2+; Fe3+ cannot enter the lattice of fayalite olivine and thus for every two Fe3+ ions, one Fe2+ is used and one molecule of magnetite is created.

In chemically reduced rocks, magnetite may be absent due to the propensity of iron to enter olivine, and wüstite may only be present if there is an excess of iron above what can be used by silica. Thus, wüstite may only be found in silica-undersaturated compositions which are also heavily chemically reduced, satisfying both the need to remove all Fe3+ and to maintain iron outside of silicate minerals.

In nature, carbonate rocks, potentially carbonatite, kimberlites, carbonate-bearing melilitic rocks, and other rare alkaline rocks may satisfy these criteria. However, wüstite is not reported in most of these rocks in nature, potentially because the redox state necessary to drive magnetite to wüstite is so rare.

Role in nitrogen fixation
Approximately 2–3% of the world's energy budget is allocated to the Haber process for ammonia production, which relies on wüstite-derived catalysts. The industrial catalyst is derived from finely ground iron powder, which is usually obtained by reduction of high-purity magnetite (Fe3O4). The pulverized iron metal is burnt (oxidized) to give magnetite or wüstite of a defined particle size. The magnetite (or wüstite) particles are then partially reduced, removing some of the oxygen in the process. The resulting catalyst particles consist of a core of magnetite, encased in a shell of wüstite, which in turn is surrounded by an outer shell of iron metal. The catalyst maintains most of its bulk volume during the reduction, resulting in a highly porous high-surface-area material, which enhances its effectiveness as a catalyst.

Historical use
According to Vagn Fabritius Buchwald, wüstite was an important component during the Iron Age to facilitate the process of forge welding. In ancient times, when blacksmithing was performed using a charcoal forge, the deep charcoal pit in which the steel or iron was placed provided a highly reducing, virtually oxygen-free environment, producing a thin wüstite layer on the metal. At the welding temperature, the iron becomes highly reactive with oxygen, and will spark and form thick layers of slag when exposed to the air, which makes welding the iron or steel nearly impossible. To solve this problem, ancient blacksmiths would toss small amounts of sand onto the white-hot metal. The silica in the sand reacts with the wüstite to form fayalite, which melts just below the welding temperature. This produced an effective flux that shielded the metal from oxygen and helped extract oxides and impurities, leaving a pure surface that can weld readily. Although the ancients had no knowledge of how this worked, the ability to weld iron contributed to the movement out of the Bronze Age and into the modern.

Related minerals
Wüstite forms a solid solution with periclase (MgO), and iron substitutes for magnesium. Periclase, when hydrated, forms brucite (Mg(OH)2), a common product of serpentinite metamorphic reactions.

Oxidation and hydration of wüstite forms goethite and limonite.

Zinc, aluminium, and other metals may substitute for iron in wüstite.

Wüstite in dolomite skarns may be related to siderite (iron(II) carbonate), wollastonite, enstatite, diopside, and magnesite.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wüstite


text:
User talk:ThetestingofLSDbytheUSarmy

The heading on your newly created page does not give full points to LSD but does does to U.S. . Is there a style convention for this? Moriori 03:18, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:ThetestingofLSDbytheUSarmy


text:
Antonov Airlines

Antonov Airlines is a Ukrainian cargo airline, a division of the Antonov aviation company. It operates international charter services in the oversized-cargo market. Its main base is Hostomel Airport near Kyiv. In the aftermath of the Battle of Hostomel Airport, Antonov relocated its remaining aircraft to Leipzig/Halle Airport.

Early years
The airline was established and started operations in 1989 through a marketing agent agreement with Air Foyle to market Antonov An-124 Ruslan cargo charters worldwide. This relationship ended in June 2006. The same month Antonov Airlines and another large player in the global specialty air cargo business, Volga-Dnepr Airlines (Russia), established a joint venture company – Rusland International — where each company has a 50% stake. The joint operation of the Ukrainian and Russian fleets allows them to share the combined An-124-100 commercial fleet of seventeen aircraft (twelve of which belong to Antonov Airlines). In 2017 Antonov Airlines opened a United Kingdom office at London Stansted Airport, with a first flight in February by an Antonov An-124 Ruslan.

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
At the outbreak of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the An-225 Mriya was at its home base of Antonov Airport in Hostomel undergoing an engine swap. During the Battle of Antonov Airport the site was captured by the Russians, and the An-225 was destroyed. UkrOboronProm said that: "The restoration is estimated to take over 3 billion USD and over five years. Our task is to ensure that these costs are covered by the Russian Federation, which has caused intentional damage to Ukraine's aviation and the air cargo sector." Other Antonov Airlines aircraft were diverted to Leipzig/Halle Airport upon completion of commercial missions, from where the airline continued operations with five An-124 aircraft.

Notable operations

 * An 88-ton water turbine for the Tashtakumska Hydroelectric Plant from Kharkiv to Tashkent;
 * Civil engineering vehicles to deal with the consequences of the earthquake in Spitak, Armenia;
 * Vehicles and systems for resolving the Persian Gulf crisis (mine clearance bulldozers, mobile electric stations, special mine, and oil-clearing boats, humanitarian assistance);
 * A 135.2 ton Siemens generator from Düsseldorf, Germany, to Delhi, India, was air-lifted by an An-124;
 * Nuclear fuel in special containers from Habaniya, Iraq, to Yekaterinburg, Russia, under the United Nations program for disarmament of Iraq;
 * A 102-ton locomotive from London, Ontario, Canada, to Dublin, Ireland;
 * A 70-ton generator was flown to Lahore, Pakistan, from Doncaster Robin Hood, United Kingdom, for power station needs;
 * A 140-ton generator was flown from Zagreb, Croatia, to Cebu, Philippines for replacement on one of two generators which was hit by lightning.
 * A 187.6 ton power plant generator from Frankfurt-Hahn Airport, Germany, to Yerevan, Armenia (listed in the Guinness Book of Records )
 * A 95-ton Putzmeister concrete pump from the Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, United States, to Japan to assist with the Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant
 * On 20 July 2015 a 76-ton single piece electrical transformer was flown from Shenyang Taoxian International Airport, China, to Karachi, Pakistan, for Quaid-e-Azam solar park power project.
 * Delivery of two Max Bögl TSB maglev trains from Munich, Germany to Chengdu, China.

Current fleet
The Antonov Airlines fleet comprises the following aircraft : * Cannot give the exact size of fleet until condition of all the aircraft is confirmed.

Former fleet

The following Antonov Airlines aircraft were destroyed in 2022 during the Battle of Hostomel Airport:

 * Antonov An-26-100 (UR-13395)
 * Antonov An-74T-100 (UR-74010)
 * Antonov An-225-100 Mriya (UR-82060)

The airline's fleet previously included the following aircraft :
 * 3 further Antonov An-124-100 Ruslan
 * 2 Antonov An-12 (stored)
 * 1 Antonov An-26
 * 1 Antonov An-74

Antonov Airlines also operated the following aircraft for the Antonov Design Bureau:
 * 1 Antonov An-28
 * 1 Antonov An-32
 * 3 Antonov An-140
 * 2 Antonov An-148

title: Antonov Airlines


text:
Hearts and Bones

Hearts and Bones is the sixth solo studio album by American singer-songwriter Paul Simon. It was released in 1983 by Warner Bros. Records.

Background
The album was originally intended to be called Think Too Much, but Mo Ostin, president of Warner Bros. Records at the time, persuaded Simon to change it to Hearts and Bones. The album was written and recorded following Simon & Garfunkel's The Concert in Central Park in 1981, and the world tour of 1982–1983. Several songs intended for Think Too Much were previewed on tour, and Art Garfunkel worked on some of the songs with Simon in the studio, with an intention that the finished product would be an all-new Simon & Garfunkel studio album. The album, particularly the title song, was a reflection on Paul's relationship with actress Carrie Fisher, and Paul felt that it was too personal to be a Simon & Garfunkel album, instead deciding that it should be a solo album. This greatly annoyed Garfunkel and ensured that there would never again be another Simon & Garfunkel album. Garfunkel left the project and Simon erased all his vocals and reworked the material into a solo album.

Reception
Hearts and Bones charted for 18 weeks on the Billboard 200, peaking at No. 35, although it is considered to be a relative commercial failure compared to Simon's other recordings.

Don Shewey of Rolling Stone concluded that the album "is all about heart versus mind, thinking versus feeling, and how these dichotomies get in the way of making music or love." He went on to call the songs "subtle", but added that "the music has a certain playfulness that matches the album's cerebral self-consciousness." In 1986, Robert Christgau of The Village Voice referred to the album as being "a finely wrought dead end."

In retrospective reviews, William Ruhlmann of AllMusic called Hearts and Bones Simon's "most personal collection of songs, one of his most ambitious, and one of his best." Ruhlmann praised the lyrical handling of the subject of romance and the music's blending of doo-wop and rock and roll roots with contemporary styles. David Bloom of PopMatters found the album to be "riskier, both musically and lyrically," than its predecessor, One-Trick Pony (1980), "and more engrossing for it." He observed that the album was "so tied to Simon's escalating preoccupation with physical and emotional remoteness that it's hard to imagine anyone being surprised when it failed to move a fan base waiting for the next 'Late in the Evening'."

Track listing
All songs written by Paul Simon, except for closing of "The Late Great Johnny Ace", composed by Philip Glass.

 * Side one
 * 1) "Allergies" – 4:37
 * 2) "Hearts and Bones" – 5:37
 * 3) "When Numbers Get Serious" – 3:25
 * 4) "Think Too Much (b)" – 2:44
 * 5) "Song About the Moon" – 4:07

 * Side two
 * 1) "Think Too Much (a)" – 3:05
 * 2) "Train in the Distance" – 5:11
 * 3) "René and Georgette Magritte with Their Dog after the War" – 3:44
 * 4) "Cars Are Cars" – 3:15
 * 5) "The Late Great Johnny Ace" – 4:45

 * 2004 CD reissue bonus tracks
 * 1) "Shelter of Your Arms" (Unreleased Work-in-Progress) – 3:11
 * 2) "Train in the Distance" (Original Acoustic Demo) – 3:13
 * 3) "René and Georgette Magritte with Their Dog after the War" (Original Acoustic Demo) – 3:46
 * 4) "The Late Great Johnny Ace" (Original Acoustic Demo) – 3:22

Personnel

 * Musicians

 * Paul Simon – lead vocals, background vocals, acoustic guitar (1, 2, 4, 5, 10), electric guitars (8), LinnDrum programming (9)
 * Dean Parks – electric guitars (1, 4, 5, 7, 10), hi-strung guitar (2)
 * Al Di Meola – guitar solo (1)
 * Anthony Jackson – contrabass guitar (1–5, 7, 8, 9)
 * Steve Gadd – drums (1, 2, 4, 5, 10)
 * Steve Ferrone – additional drums (1), drums (3, 6)
 * Greg Phillinganes – Fender Rhodes (1, 5, 10)
 * Rob Sabino – synthesizers (1, 9), acoustic piano (8)
 * Rob Mounsey – synthesizers (1), vocoder (5)
 * Airto Moreira – percussion (1–4, 7)
 * Richard Tee – Fender Rhodes (2, 7, 8), keyboards (3), acoustic piano (4), synthesizers (8)
 * Mike Mainieri – vibraphone (2, 7), marimba (2, 4),
 * Eric Gale – electric guitars (3)
 * Tom Coppola – Synclavier (3–6)
 * Marcus Miller – bass guitar (4, 7)
 * Nile Rodgers – electric guitars (6, 9), LinnDrum programming (9)
 * Bernard Edwards – bass guitar (6)
 * Jeff Porcaro – drums (7)
 * Jesse Levy – cello (7)
 * Peter Gordon – French horn (7)
 * Mark Rivera – alto saxophone (7)
 * Wells Christie – Synclavier (8)
 * The Harptones – backing vocals (8)
 * Sid McGinnis – electric guitars (10)
 * Michael Boddicker – synthesizer (10)
 * Michael Riesman – synthesizers (10)
 * Carol Wincenc – flute (10)
 * George Marge – bass clarinet (10)
 * Marin Alsop – violin (10)
 * Frederick Zlotkin – cello (10)
 * Jill Jaffe – viola (10)
 * David Nichtern – Synclavier programming

The uncredited horn section on "Allergies" and "Cars Are Cars" are Mark Rivera (saxophones), Jon Faddis and Alan Rubin (trumpets).

 * Technical

 * Paul Simon – producer
 * Russ Titelman – producer
 * Roy Halee – producer, engineer, mixing
 * Lenny Waronker – co-producer (1, 5, 10)
 * Lee Herschberg – additional engineer
 * Jason Corsaro – additional engineer
 * Mark Linett – additional engineer
 * Gene Paul – additional engineer
 * James Dougherty – additional engineer
 * Eric Korte – second engineer
 * Andy Hoffman – second engineer
 * Terry Rosiello – second engineer
 * David Greenberg – second engineer
 * Stuart Gitlin – second engineer
 * Ken Deane – second engineer
 * Dan Nash – second engineer
 * Jim Santis – second engineer
 * Greg Calbi – mastering
 * Tom Bates – digital engineer
 * Wayne Yurgelin – digital audio facilities
 * Julie Hooker – production assistant
 * Kimberly Boyle – production assistant
 * Jeffrey Kent Ayeroff – art direction
 * Paula Greif – art direction
 * Jeri McManus – design
 * E.K.T.V. – cover photo
 * Arthur Elgort – inner photo
 * David Matthews – horn arrangements (1, 9)
 * The Harptones – background vocal arrangements (8)
 * George Delerue – orchestration (8)
 * Philip Glass – orchestration (10)
 * Michael Riesman – orchestra conductor (10)

title: Hearts and Bones


text:
Talk:Hub gear

Image
Not having understood too much about hub/epicyclic gears until today, I'd appreciate some feedback on the diagram I've added. As I understand it, there are several different ways of driving the gearing system, involving various configurations of fixed parts and movable parts. Some that I looked at had a fixed sun gear, and movable planetary gear holder that provided the input rotation; I don't know which is more common.

A good explanation of how gearing ratios are determined in this sytem would be nice to have! Also, if anyone can point me to some good diagrams of how an epicyclic gearbox or transmission (with multiple ratios) works, I can think about making a diagram of that too. -- Wapcaplet 03:25, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately this shows a turning sun gear - in all bicycle gear hubs, the sun stays still (being keyed to the axle) while the gear ring and planet cage rotate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.249.214.190 (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

 * A better diagram wanted but it must be copy-right free. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I believe this is finally sorted out according to the description given by Sheldon Brown. -AndrewDressel (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

hub gear?
Should this article be hub gear? Kingturtle 05:05, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Possibly, though maybe a better name would be epicyclic gear or epicyclic gearing. Feel free to move it :-) -- Wapcaplet 06:25, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The article is about cycling hubs in particular, so I wouldn't call it "epicyclic" because few cyclists refer to it that way. geared hub or internally geared hub would make more sense to me.  At some point it may make sense to put the technical details under one of the epicyclic suggestions and reference it from the hub article which might contain more cycling-specific and historic info  AHands 12:39, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Nice graphics by the way! What do you use for the 3d modeling?

 * Thanks! A distinction between epicyclic gearing in general and cycling hubs in particular would be good to have. I'm tending more towards explaining epicyclic gearing in general, so maybe we need a new article. The models are made in Blender. I've made an animation for the latest one, but unfortunately there are some limitations at present on size and video format for Wikipedia, so those probably won't be useful any time soon.

 * I'm working on finding some good explanations of how gear changes are effected in hub gears for bicycles. So far, I've found some very complex diagrams, which don't do much by way of explanation, some explanation without diagrams, and a few other grainy photos and generalized statements about how they work. I'm looking for something that would be relatively easy to illustrate, such as how a three-speed hub gear works. When I do figure it out, I'll make models and upload them! -- Wapcaplet 17:49, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Usage in USA/UK - Continental Europe and the World
It seems rather strange to make such broad claims about the usage in different regions of the world. They should at least be substantiated by an independent source. Bfg 12:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, first it says derailleur gears are most common in the UK and US while hub gears are more common in continental Europe. But a bit further it says derailleur gears have since the 1950's become the most common type of gear system on bicycles. But I imagine that in other parts of the world they are very uncommon. Or is it that there, no gears are the most common thing? It seems too strong a statement, so I'll tone it down a bit. DirkvdM 07:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Image/Illustration
I know the cutaway image of the 14-speed hub is fantastically fascinating and beautful, but such intricate and recently developed mechanisms are almost unheard of in practice. Might it be better to find a similar image of something more illustrative of hub gears commonly used by cyclists (3-speed, probably), rather than a rather baffling mechanical curiosity? Ninly 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Other Uses
Toyota is using an adaptation of this for its toyota prius electronic continuously variable transmission. At least the gears look similar even though the purpose and use are very different. Check out this site. [Prius\http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/PriusFrames.htm] - Go to Understanding -> power split device. Might deserve a mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chathu50 (talk • contribs) 09:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Is a hub gear the what's on some farm and sonstruction machinery particuarly hydrosatic implements? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.201.136.122 (talk) 03:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Confusing Advantages/disadvantages
Someone's confused the advantages/disadvantages section recently by replacing an item stating that hub gears are heavier with one stating that they are not, and that they cost around the same as derailleurs, but leaving it under Disadvantages. As it's currently worded, it's a neutral statement, and I don't know enough about gears to say whether it's right or wrong.
 * I think I've fixed that. Hub-gears are heavier and more expensive. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Also the below sentence asserts two completely contradictory ideas, making it impossible to determine what is and is not a disadvantage. "Hub gears with a large number of speeds are less efficient than a properly lubed and adjusted derailleur. A 3-speed hub runs at 1:1 in top gear and, when run-in and properly lubricated can match or exceed derailleur efficiency, benefiting from the lack of the derailleur's jockey wheels and from its perfect chainline. Derailleur gears are much more likely to be badly lubricated."

Is this sentence confirming or refuting the idea that hub gears are less efficient? If they are less efficient, why does it then go on to say that properly lubricated, they can match or exceed derailleur efficiency? 04:10, 3 February 2010 86.175.32.0
 * In general one can say that derailleurs are more efficient but that's not going to be emphasised in an article about hub-gears because it doesn't concern the cycling of most users. It might be more to significant to the users of hub-gears with large numbers of gears. With some exceptions and running conditions as mentioned. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Maximum Number of Speeds
The paragraph used to read that they are made with up so 38 speeds. I searched Google for "thirty-eight speed hub" and nothing showed up. If someone can find a citation, put it back in. But I changed it to 14, to reflect Rohloff's highest number.

Maintenance vs repair
I changed the item in the disadvantages section; I think it should really discuss to repair rather than maintenance.

As noted in the advantages section hub gears have very minimal maintenance, most are sealed for life (without even oil or grease points) and the only real maintenance you can do is adjusting and replacing the actuator cable, and possibly renewing the gear cog.

But if they fail (and that's a big 'if') you cannot easily get spares or dismantle them, and wholesale replacement is normally the only option. Whereas you can pick up individual components of a dérailleur in any decent bike shop when (not 'if') it becomes badly worn or fails.

 * Gear hubs aren't sealed for life, all of them can be opened and re-greased. Sturmey-Archer ones have a screw in ball bearing recess that is hard to get loose after years of use. Other brands usually use a large bearing that leaves a hole big enough to allow the internals in as a whole. Only the Rohloff hub uses press-fit bearing witch are difficult (but unnecessary, due to an alternative way of lubrication) to remove. Maintenance hardly ever happens though, because the are usually owned by people that just use them for basic transportation.

 * When gear hubs fail it is usually an indirect consequence of lubrication starvation. Every brand had its own flaws.

 * Sturmey-Archer ones usually fail due to one of the pawls losing function creating an uneven load on the system or breaking internal toothings due to incomplete engagements of the pawls. Even so, most survive this severe condition unnoticed for quite a while. Some have been known to be prone to axle breakage (they were made in the 80s and the beginning of the 90s (exact dates are hard to find) I have seen some for myself, the exact failure mechanism is unknown to me, the axles appear unaffected by corrosion).

 * Sachs ones are known to be quite reliable (except the Elan version, but it can be considered a one-off), most problems come from bearing rings that break after a while. Usually replacing the bearing rings with loose balls (and removing the debris) solves the problem. The grease in them can dry similar to the Sturmey-Archer ones, usually this causes internal springs to lock onto moving parts and getting jammed in the mechanism, usually just disrupting gear function. These can usually be replaced and gear function restored.

 * Shimano has been known for problems with the outer bearing getting contaminated with water and getting rusted and consequently pitted, even after a limited amount of time in wet environments. When detected in time this bearing can be replaced and re-greased. If not, the bearings will usually come loose of the worn bearing rings and block parts of the mechanism. The mechanism itself usually suffers little, but the bearing recesses are of little use by then and cannot be replaced in most hubs. Oil-lubrication has been recommended for these hubs by some, but to my knowledge no long term data of its workings have been published. Shimano has introduced a maintenance routine to replenish the internal grease with a special kind of maintenance oil. The recommended maintenance interval is relatively short and unknown to most repair shops, while the oil itself is quite expensive for individual use so this routine is quite unique.

 * Significant wear is unlikely even when lubricated only reasonably well due to the low rotational speed of bikes. Torque-induced damage is uncommon and unlikely to be caused by lack of maintenance. 82.139.114.136 (talk) 11:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Back Wheel Strength?
It is my understanding that the back wheel of a single speed is considerably stronger than that of a bike with a multi-geared cassette or freewheel which is dished to one side to compensate for the size of the freewheel/cassette. (an internal gear hub only has one rear cog making it effectively the same as a single speed)

My question is, if this is true, should a sturdier back wheel be listed as an advantage? The back wheel tends to be the second most expensive part of the bike and the back wheel's ability to take more abuse makes the bike potentially more utilitarian in terms of being able to endure heavy loads and poor road conditions.

 * The derailleur rear wheel is both the weakest and the most vulnerable kind. Weak because the spindle is small and the spokes cannot exert much torsional stiffness (hence they get stretched slightly with each press of the pedals), weak because this wheel has to be dished much more than others and vulnerable because of the adjacent jockey wheel carrier.

 * Unfortunately the article is biased towards the non-engineering reader so a lot of technical detail gets lost and there is excessive mention of particular (and slightly esoteric) models coming from a single named manufacturer. It's difficult to know how to make it read better. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

 * First, of course, if you have a reliable source for any of this, please add it. Second, if the diameter of the hub or its flanges was that much of an issue, hubs for derailleurs or their flanges would simply be larger in diameter. I looked in Jobst Brandt's book and, although he does discuss wide-flange hubs, he does not mention that they make stronger wheels. Third, I have seen several attempts to reduce dish, do not dispute that claim, and have left it in. -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

 * I cannot find a source for it either. I do know however the flange is usually stiffer than spokes, and when a wheel has relatively more flange it will become more so. Stiffness is desirable for efficiency reasons, but the difference is probably only important in competitive environments. I do however believe it to be sufficiently important to be mentioned so anyone can judge its relevance for himself. 82.139.114.136 (talk) 11:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I don't know what I looked at last time, but this time when I checked Brandt's book, many more relevant details became apparent. It appears that I was confusing "wide hubs", i.e. hubs with more distance between their flanges, with "large-flange hubs", i.e. hubs with larger flange diameters.
 * Jobst states explicitly "the distance between flanges gives a wheel its lateral strength." "Multiple gears have crowded the flange spacing on rear wheels to a marginally acceptable width."
 * Large flanges do offer more torque stiffness, but this is only necessary on "aggressively ridden tandem"s. Small flanges are plenty stiff for even track sprinters. Jobst even elaborates "their reduction of torque-induced spoke loads might improve fatigue life slightly, However, with larger flanges the spoke angle at the rim becomes farther from perpendicular, causing spokes to bend at the nipple. This bend increases failures at the threads andprobably cancels any gains from reduced torque loads."
 * Large flanges do offer room for more spokes, such as the 48 spokes that "durable tandem wheels require."
 * Large flanges do make replacing spokes on the drive side of single-speed and fixed-gear bicycles easier: "they allow spokes to be replaced without removing the sprocket."
 * So, it appears that he does cover the benefits of wide hubs and the supposed benefits of "large-flange hubs", and finds the latter only useful on tandems. I'll update the article. -AndrewDressel (talk) 13:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Anyone reading the article now would think it was written by a cycle-racer who thinks hub-gears are for wussies. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't see why. There are more than twice as many advantages listed. -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * The disadvantages are given much more detail than the advantages. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * I've started to clean up the disadvantages section as well. You're welcome to help. -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * When detail is given, it's incomplete - parallel pins make for a much stronger chain than barrel-shaped ones, but it's far from obvious why that's the case.

 * I cannot find a source that confirms that claim. -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * The significance of changing gear when stationary is not made clear, nor is the improved reliability of the hub-gear wheel. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * The significance of shifting while stationary was not sourced, and I do not find the inability to be a disadvantage. Does the significance of improved reliability really need to be explained? -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Instead of which, we're told about 14-gear systems and belt-drives, neither of which bear any relevance to the experience of most readers. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't believe we know anything about the experience of most readers. All we can do is write the best article we can with the guidelines and sources available. -AndrewDressel (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 * If we know nothing about the experience of most bicycle riders it must be questionable how well we can edit articles that would atract such people to read and enjoy and trust articles in the encyclopedia. MalcolmMcDonald (talk)

 * First, most bicycle riders and most wikipedia readers are two completely separate groups. Second, we attract people to read and enjoy and trust articles in the encyclopedia simply by writing well written and sourced articles. -AndrewDressel (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Hub Weight Comparison (in table in section "List of multispeed hub gears")
This table contains wrong values and different configurations. No sources are indicated.

The weight of the SG-700 appears to be 1744 g |road.cc Review. 1600 g was a target that was never met. The weight of the Speedhub is 1700 g in the standard configuration, and 1825 g |Rohloff in the configuration for disc brakes.

Please correct the values, indicate the various configuration, and indicate the sources of the data. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogl4712 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Why is the Speedhub listed in the disc version, whereas a lighter version is available as well? Please note that some of the other hubs do not support disc brakes either.
 * Why do you reference a superficial web article for the weight of the SG-700 that dates prior to the release of the SG-700, whereas better sources are available (see above)?
 * Why do you state a target weight for the SG-700, whereas more accurate numbers are available?

Please stop fooling around. Bogl4712 (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your link/reference does not work. Do you have one that works? Keanu (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

See Bogl4712 (talk) 21:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Re-Organizing/ moving second paragraph in intro
Possibly move the second paragraph to Latest Developments, Hub-gears in everyday use, or History sections, it seems to be in an odd place that makes the into seem disjointed. Also adding Minneapolis (https://www.niceridemn.org) and B-Cycle locations (http://www.bcycle.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.226.17 (talk) 19:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Simplicity of shifting
The following has been removed: "Hub gears can be simpler to use for inexperienced riders, because there is generally only a single shifter to operate and there are no overlapping gear ratios. By contrast, modern derailleur systems often have two shifters, and require some forethought to avoid problematic gear combinations." I believe this to be an advantage over front and rear derailleur geared bikes with a right and a left shifter with two operation directions each, as the rider has to operate up to four trigger shift levers with opposing gear ratio changes on the right and left side to ensure that the chainline is kept relatively level. The trigger finger typically shifts to a lower gear ratio on the left side shifter while the trigger finger shifts to a higher gear ratio on the right side shifter. It is a problem mostly with wide gear range derailleur gear systems, with two or more chainrings up front. Please help modify the above sentence so that it better explains this factor or I will simply reenter it. Keanu (talk) 11:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hub gear


text:
Talk:Hearts and Bones

Untitled
John Lennon? Surely Johnny Ace (Johnny Marshall Alexander, Jr.)?ThetestingofLSDbytheUSarmy 03:26, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC) http://www.rockabilly.nl/artists/johnny_ace.htm
 * Both, actually. The first verses of the song which deal with the "real" Johnny Ace set up the devastating last verse which is about Lennon.  When Simon sang debuted the song at the Central Park concert in 1982, a crazed fan rushed onto the stage to Simon's wide-eyed fearful reaction, an eerie thing considering the subject matter. Jgm 00:20, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Simon and Garfunkel album
I know this album was originally going to be Simon and Garfunkel's reunion album, but I've heard three seperate claims as to why it became a Paul Simon Solo Album (none of them neccessarily from relibable sources): that Paul simply decided he didn't want Art on the Album, that art had objections to some on the songs and left, and that Art failed to record his material on time and Simon released it without him instead of delaying the release.

If anyone can determine what actually happened I think it would make a good addition to the article.--198.93.113.49 15:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I think I read in Patrick Humphreys biography that Simon was concerned about the quality of Garfunkel's voice and his refusal to give up smoking. Sounds petty, but smaller things have lead bands to break up! 86.149.92.6 (talk) 12:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

There are versions of some of the songs with Art Garfunkel singing on them. Some of these versions have appeared on Youtube. I have heard them myself. "Cars are cars", for example (not bad with Artie, methinks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJOtl9g7jUs) So I don't think it's still "unconfirmed rumour". 139.30.62.62 (talk) 09:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC) superbarclay; 11:33, 06 June 2012 (CET)

Dave Matthews
This page links to the Dave Matthews that everyone knows; obviously this isn't the right one, however, I don't know if the intended arranger is one of the other David Matthews that have their own pages. Somoene should figure this out; I don't know it. 70.48.100.137 (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Re-examined?
"However, this album has been re-examined in recent years and is considered to be one of Paul's more important records and a lyrically strong one."

Whilst I whole-heartedly agree with the sentence above I think it is necessary to know: By whom? And why? Can you update us on this one? superbarclay 88.72.211.126 (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Hearts and Bones


text:
Air Foyle HeavyLift

Air Foyle HeavyLift was a joint venture airline based in Bishop's Stortford, England. It specialised in heavy air cargo services. It was the worldwide sales agent for Antonov Airlines of Kyiv, Ukraine.

History
The company's Chairman and joint CEO was Christopher Foyle, also Chairman of Foyle's bookshop.

Air Foyle
Air Foyle started operations as an executive air charter company with one Piper Aztec aircraft in 1978. It grew its fleet of Aztec, Navajo and Chieftain aircraft by carrying passenger, cargo and aerial survey flights. In 1979 it pioneered the overnight carriage of courier traffic between the UK and Europe operating a nightly return flight between Luton and Brussels for Skypak (later a TNT company), and later between Aberdeen and East Midlands Airport (also for TNT). In 1985 it started providing larger cargo aircraft to TNT, by then its principal cargo customer, using wet leased Handley Page Dart Herald aircraft operating nightly from Birmingham to Nuremberg and Hannover and these were later replaced by a BAC One-Eleven jet cargo aircraft and then by a Boeing 737-200QC aircraft wet leased from Aer Lingus. When TNT announced that it would order 72 British Aerospace 146 aircraft converted to freighters, Air Foyle won the contract to operate these aircraft on behalf of TNT, then an Australian company. This operation commenced in May 1987 with one BAe 146 aircraft and rapidly expanded to ten such aircraft which Air Foyle then operated for thirteen years for TNT on a nightly schedule from various airports in the UK and mainland Europe into TNT's hub in Cologne and later Liège.

In 1985 Air Foyle took delivery of the first production Edgley EA-7 Optica aerial observation aircraft. Subsequently, while being operated by Hampshire Police this aircraft was destroyed in a fatal accident.

In 1989, following two years of negotiations with the Soviets, Air Foyle became the worldwide General Sales Agent of the Antonov Design Bureau of Kyiv and became responsible for the marketing and sales and commercial and operational management of Antonov's fleet of AN-124 heavy cargo aircraft.

Between 1998 and 2000 Air Foyle bid an AN-124 solution for the Ministry of Defence Short-Term Strategic Airlift (STSA) procurement. After a protracted procurement process, Ministers in the Ministry of Defence chose a very much more expensive Boeing C-17 solution. Air Foyle believed it had been misled during the procurement process about the basis for decision on the procurement. The Comptroller and Auditor General later concluded that the procurement process was "that the Department has not fully followed its own preferred practice in evaluating the Short Term Strategic Airlift proposals, but there is no evidence of illegality."

In 1994 Air Foyle won a contract to operate one Lockheed L-100 Hercules and one Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft on permanent 24/7 standby for Oil Spill Response, to provide immediate response on a worldwide basis in the event of a major oil spillage.

Adopting the TNT aircraft management principle, Air Foyle and then its sister passenger airline Air Foyle Passenger Airlines operated a variety of aircraft including Boeing 707-300F, 737-200, 737-300, 727-200, Airbus A320 and A300 for a number of airline and virtual airline customers including EasyJet, Sunseeker, Sabre, Virgin Express, Debonair, Color Air, and Air Scandic from 1993 until 2000.

HeavyLift
In 1977 the Trafalgar House Group bought 90% of Transmeridian Air Cargo and on 15 August 1979 merged it with IAS Cargo Airlines to form British Cargo Airlines. BCA collapsed in 1980 and became HeavyLift Cargo. The carrier acquired five ex-Royal Air Force Shorts Belfast freighters to operated outsized cargo. The company founded Prime Airlines as a passenger charter operation in 2001. In the early 1990s HeavyLift joined with the Russian Volga-Dnepr airlines to become the worldwide general sale agent for its outsized cargo operations with AN-124 aircraft. This was similar to UK rival Air Foyle which was the general sales agent for the Ukrainian AN-124 operator Antonov Airlines. Volga-Denpr terminated the agreement in 2001 after ten years of cooperation. HeavyLift collapsed in 2002 with the closure of HeavyLift Cargo Airlines, Prime Airlines, and HeavyLift Aircraft Engineering. The joint venture Air Foyle HeavyLift was unaffected and continued to operate until 2006. The HeavyLift name continued with two new and independent airlines, HeavyLift Cargo Airlines in Australia and HeavyLift International in the UAE, founded by former employees and investors.

Joint Venture
In 2001, following Volga-Dnepr's termination of its deal with HeavyLift, the British rivals Air Foyle and HeavyLift agreed to form a joint venture responsible for the sales and marketing of charters and leases of Antonov Airline's fleet of Antonov An-124, Antonov An-225 and Antonov An-22 cargo aircraft. The venture was originally to be named Antonov Airlines (UK) but this was changed to Air Foyle HeavyLift.

The new joint venture, Air Foyle HeavyLift, became the worldwide General Sales Agent of the Antonov Design Bureau of Kyiv, a function previously held from July 1989 by Air Foyle independently.

Antonov terminated the joint venture on 30 June 2006 to allow it to pursue a joint marketing venture with its erstwhile Russian competitor Volga-Dnepr under the name Ruslan International

Air Foyle and Air Foyle HeavyLift ceased trading in July 2006, AFH closed for business on 31 July 2006.

title: Air Foyle HeavyLift