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Talk:The Settlers of Catan/copyright and fair use

This thread discusses copyright and fair use, in the context of the Settlers of Catan game suite.

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Regarding the Settlers of Catan pages:
 * Massive additions and restructuring underway.
 * All images originate from an open source implementation of Settlers of Catan. The developer has sanctioned this Wikipedia effort. The game is distributed at SourceForge under GPL licensing.
 * Read this body of legal evidence that the contents of the Settlers of Catan pages constitute legal use.
 * Please see the Image_use_policy page for the following policy statement: It is not the job of rank-and-file Wikipedians to police every image for possible copyright infringement.
 * See also Copyrights and find the part that this article might violate, before removing any part of the Settlers documentation.

~ stardust 02:49, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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These cards are obviously copyrighted, they're published by a company that markets them. They cannot stay here. RickK 04:24, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Likewise, the jungle tile is copyrighted. This is what Mayfair has to say about that: "Feel free to copy this image and attach it to cardboard to create your own Jungle Tile!" Same with the volcano tile.  At the point that Mayfair itself distributes its images freely, with the recommendation that people put them in play, whereas the Settlers of Catan article is merely informational and intended to fuel interest and sales to boot, perhaps you need to find bone to pick somewhere else!
 * ~ stardust 20:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Just because they have released the tiles for your personal use as a valued customer, doesn't mean they have released the image for inclusion in a comercial online encyclopedia. Based on what is on this page right now, I could print out my own copy of the game and play it, and not pay Mairfair anything.  I don't think that's what they had in mind when they said, "Feel free to copy this image and attach it to cardboard to create your own Jungle Tile!" Gentgeen 22:44, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * First of all the bulk of the game tiles have not been made available. But anyone who knows the rules and doesn't mind playing with paper pieces, or investing the time and effort, can create the game from scratch.  Even the original Wikipedia entry with its primitive sample board gave enough information.  The rules of the game is the intellectual property in question.  At that point, precisely which games may be explained in this free, nonprofit online encyclopedia?  Chess but not Settlers?  Go but not Monopoly?
 * ~ stardust 00:10, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Also, particularly since Settlers a fairly difficult to find, people would expect to find out about its availability on an informational page. It is the same as the listing of hostels on the hostels page. Most people don't go to the hostels page without thinking, hey maybe I can find out where I can find a cheap but safe hostel, huh? The same is true of Settlers. People who know about it and love it already own the standard set at a minimum, and many of those who find out and try out new variants of it end up buying physical copies of the expansion sets. An encyclopedia is about information that people want. It is not the business of any encyclopedia to worry about what people will do with the information that they obtain therein. ~ stardust 00:18, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

From the source of your images:

''IN ORDER TO USE THE SOFTWARE "S3D", YOU MUST OWN A BOARD GAME COPY OF SETTLERS OF CATAN (TM). IN ORDER TO USE THE SOFTWARE "SEA3D", YOU MUST OWN A BOARD GAME COPY OF SETTLERS OF CATAN (TM) AND ALSO A BOARD GAME COPY OF SEAFARERS OF CATAN (TM), ALONG WITH ANY FIVE OR SIX PLAYER EXPANSIONS IN EITHER CASE, IF YOU USE THOSE MAPS IN THE SOFTWARE.''

''DISCLAIMER In accordance with the wishes of Klaus Teuber, as expressed through an email sent to the webmasters at http://www.wannagame.com, THE AUTHOR has complied with the following items:''

1. All references to "Catan" and "The Settlers of Catan" have been removed from THE WEBSITE and from any products or electronic versions offered on THE WEBSITE.

2. Any references on THE WEBSITE to these trademarks and Mr. Teuber's games are not licensed by him and this site is in no way connected, authorized, and/or tolerated by Mr. Tueber or KOSMOS.

''3. The software offered for download on this page is an illegal and no way licensed version of the board game "The Settlers of Catan" by Klaus Teuber. Klaus Teuber has not given permission for the programming and is not responsible for the subjects of the game at all. Although, THE AUTHOR hopes he likes it.''

all these images are illegal, by statement from their source.

Secondly, What Wikipedia is not, under what Wikipedia articles are not, #20: A resource for conducting business other than the business of creating a great encyclopedia.  Just because someone else is doing something, doesn't make it right. Gentgeen 00:40, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The S3D statement says nothing about images that a private individual creates with their own illustration and image editing software. Images like this one [[Image:soc-bank-usa.jpg]] are without a doubt not covered by any copyright.  It is an private person's illustration.  If I sketched the picture of a settlement by hand, scanned it, tweaked it with Photoshop, and posted it here, would that constitute copyright infringement?  Of course not.  Secondly, the fact that plenty of other Wikipedia pages include links to commercial entities such as the database of hostels proves that it is permissible to include such links here.  We are not comparing the policies of other web sites to those of this online encyclopedia.  We are judging what falls within the guidelines of this site, based on what the site already includes.
 * ~ stardust 01:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Did you read the statement? Your hero, Klaus, has tracked the author of the software you're taking these images from and threatened him with legal action to protect Klaus's copyright.  To keep his program up, all refrences to "Catan" or "Katan" had to be removed from the site.  Wikipedia is much larger and well known than some little freeware version of his board game, so he will find this page soon.  Our options will be either keep the images and remove all refrances to "Catan" on the entire encyclopedia, includind deleting this page, or deleting all the images.  which do you prefer?  I prefer not having any images.

 * What Wikipedia is not is the policy of this project. The difference between the Hotel listings and the stores to buy Settlers from is that they are not ADVERTIZING, where your store refrences are.  You are making it the official position of this article that you should by this game, and buy it from these particular locations. Gentgeen 01:22, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * As for sketching by hand, etc: yes, that would be infringement; your version would be a derivative work and your copyright over it would only be partial. Salsa Shark 01:30, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Explain to me how the image on the Settlers of Catan, 5 to 6 player expansion page is not likewise a derivative work that is illegal.

 * Firstly, Teuber has not taken any leagal action against S3D. Secondly, you have not answered my question about which images a copyright can cover, even if Teuber were interested in pursuing a copyright infringement case.  The image above, the image below, the photograph of Teuber posing with his game, are DEFINITELY not covered by any copyright.

 * Secondly, the link to the hostel listings and reviews search engine is THE EXACT SAME THING as the link to Mayfair's listing of retailers. If you want to argue about listing the physical storefronts, that gets into question of providing information that people want.  If you believe that the presence of such information makes it the official position of the article that people should buy the game from those rare known locations, which was DEFINITELY not my intent (no one is getting any commission here), then the article will state explicitly that this is not the case.

 * ~ stardust 01:36, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

From ''Title 17, § 101. Definitions'', of the United States Code:

''"Copies" are material objects, other than phonorecords, in which a work is fixed by any method now known or later developed, and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. The term "copies" includes the material object, other than a phonorecord, in which the work is first fixed.''

''A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work".''

To "display" a work means to show a copy of it, either directly or by means of a film, slide, television image, or any other device or process or, in the case of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to show individual images nonsequentially.

"Literary works" are works, other than audiovisual works, expressed in words, numbers, or other verbal or numerical symbols or indicia, regardless of the nature of the material objects, such as books, periodicals, manuscripts, phonorecords, film, tapes, disks, or cards, in which they are embodied.

''"Pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works" include two-dimensional and three-dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art, photographs, prints and art reproductions, maps, globes, charts, diagrams, models, and technical drawings, including architectural plans. Such works shall include works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their form but not their mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned; the design of a useful article, as defined in this section, shall be considered a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work only if, and only to the extent that, such design incorporates pictorial, graphic, or sculptural features that can be identified separately from, and are capable of existing independently of, the utilitarian aspects of the article.''

From ''Title 17, § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general'', of the US Code:

''(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:''

(1) literary works;

snip

''(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;

From ''Title 17, § 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works'', of the US Code:

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

''(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

snip

''(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly;

snip

So, based on the United States copyright code, which I'm using because the servers on which Wikipedia exist are in Florida, we do not have the right to distribute copies (ie the Settlers of Catan article page) of any derived work from a copyrighted work, like Settlers of Catan, without the permission of the copyright holder. The source of your images admits he is distributing them illegally, so he is not able to distribute them under GNU GLP. Additionally, significant portions of the page's text are now basicly a derived work of the game rules, which are literary works under the copyright code, so we can't distribute them either, without express permission of the copyright holder. And I don't think any court in the world will accecpt digitizing every piece of a game as "fair use".

In 24 hours, I will blank this article and list it under Possible copyright infringements, unless you reply with a relavant argument, ie Supreme Court ruling, International Treaty to which either Germany or the United States are signatory nations, or other articles of the United States Code. Gentgeen 08:37, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Please READ THE FOLLOWING, as per the copyright issues page (now in italic)

 FAIR USAGE. The doctrine of "fair usage" means that the matter which was under copyright was neither copied nor adopted, but that the uncopyrightable underlying idea was used, since a theme or idea is not copyrightable.

 * What the Devil is this about? I really, really, don't want to be involved in this debate (forced into reading it by having responded to RickK's dyspeptic comment at Village Pump); but the page cited does not contain the string "fair usage" according to my text editor's search; it has lots of "fair use" references, none of which looks like that; and of course the text given above is absolutely not a definition of fair use or anything even beginning to resemble one.  At least I now know what sort of thing has upset R's stomach so badly. Dandrake 19:33, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)
 * You replied to a portion of old discussion quoted here, which includes a completely wrong definition of fair use which was refuted in later discussion. I've set all of the quoted portion to italic to reduce the chance of others doing the same. Jamesday 22:59, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

''What I don't understand is what "which images we must omit" is about -- I can't think of any situation in which any image in the 'pedia should be "omitted." Would someone please enlighten me? -- isis 11:26 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)''

 * I was thinking of album cover thumbnails & sound clips -- wiouldn't a a CD or paper version of Wikipedia, even if sold at-cost, have to omit those? -- Tarquin

''No, no way, never, huh-uh. -- isis 11:40 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)''

 * The only possible time such an image might have to be omitted is in a commercially sold reproduction of Wikipedia (that weakens our "fair use" position but probably wouldn't destroy it), and since we don't plan on ever doing that, it shouldn't be a problem. If we made a paper reproduction distributed in accordance with our educational purposes, the same fair use rights would apply to that.

With all due respect, I must dissent from that opinion: Under Fed.R.Evid. 1001, for example, any copy of the 'pedia is interchangeable with any other (and/or the "original" -- whatever that means in this context), so whether we charge for our efforts in producing a particular copy or not is immaterial.

''I've just realized what's been bothering some Users about the videotape covers: They don't understand what a copyright on the packaging means. I should have caught on sooner and told them the fact they were missing to ease their minds: A copyright on a videotape cover design prohibits anyone else's making a videotape cover/box/package with that same (or too much like it) design, but it does not prohibit anyone's taking a picture of it to show to anyone (commercially or not) when talking about the content of the tape in that box. If it did, the copyright laws would be unconstitutional, and those statutes are intended to further the 1st Amendment, not violate it. -- isis 20:20 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)''

 * Sounds like the matter is resolved (but Isis, note that we're dealing internationally here -- 1st amendment is a local thing) -- Tarquin

Read the excerpt above from the Wikipedia and copyright issues page. The copyright on Settlers of Catan protects Mayfair from anyone producing a physical, boxed game suite with the same or similar design as a product for the mass market. It does not prevent anyone from sharing illustrations of any degree of likeness to the physical product.

The maps referenced by the copyright laws you have cited are things like world maps or city maps, sold for profit by the copyright holder. If Map Company A decides to produce and sell a map of Boston, it is free to do so. If Map Company B decides to produce and sell their own map of Boston, it is also free to do so. Map companies put fake, nonexistent alleys in their maps to try to catch other map companies that COPY their work exactly, down to the fake alleys. Without these fakeouts, there is no infringement case.

Now all the game maps in the Settlers documentation are unique layouts that were randomly generated, and have not been published by anyone anywhere. Sure they were generated following the rules of the game, but I am allowed to use the rules of the game in the making of my personal set of illustrations. If I designed a new variant of the game on a new board with catan tiles, the Mayfair copyright would not bar me from sharing my new idea with everyone else. This is protected by the First Amendment, which is quite relevent enough in the United States.

Furthermore, almost all of the text in the article is my own, plus some bits of the original article. Explaining the rules of a game is protected by the First Amendment as well. Sure since it is about a copyrighted game, it is 'derivative' of the rules, but sharing ideas is not barred by any copyright law anywhere. IMPLEMENTING the same idea for commercial profit IS illegal. The dissimination of information in the Settlers documentation, with images that I have made myself, in words that I have written myself, is far from illegal.

~ stardust 09:03, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The US is a signatory to all the major international copyright conventions, which in fact are based on US and German copyright laws; therefore, the parts of US Code Title 17 can be taken as basicly applying worldwide, as the major differences are on how long copyright holders retain their rights, all of which are decades away from expiring in this case. Gentgeen 09:18, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Broader participation starts
Ok, let's start at the top.

1) The photo of Teuber is jointly copyrighted by the person who took the photo, and the owner of the copyright to the Catan box illustration. Do we know who took the photo? This seems like a possible infringement. It's also somewhat immoral to reproduce the image without giving due credit to the photographer and to the artist who created the box illustration.

2) The Catan official maps are, IMO, fair use for us and for all downstream redistributors, as they are very small thumbnails and hence of reduced quality, etc. However, stardust, you should add a fair use rationale should be added to the image description page, as discussed in image description page.

3) The example layout will be jointly copyrighted by stardust (responsible for the unique layout depicted), and the owner of the copyright to the tile illustrations (eg Teuber). This will be fair use for us, but I'm not sure if it'll be fair use for all our sublicensees. In any case, we need a fair use rationale again.

4) The tiny images each of lumber, wool, etc, might be fair use: they're much less transformative than some of the others, but they're a smaller proportion of the total work. Again, fair use rationale needed.

5) The bank image I think is worth removing simply because it's unclear as to what it is, or what it means, and I don't think it'll help the reader very much. After all, it's only illustrating a stack of tiles, and the reader will know that. So I'd say delete anyway - we should only make use of fair use when we have to, and I don't think we're helped by this one.

6) The "building costs" image I don't know about. Stardust, did you make this entirely yourself, or is it a copy of an equivalent image from the rulebook? Could you add some detail to the image description page to say which? :)

7) The little pictures of houses, etc, look fine. Tiny images, very little creative input in a cuboid, for example. Mind you, if you can copyright silence.... but no, I think these are fair game.

8) The text is, as far as I can tell, a rewriting of the rulebook in stardust's own words. So that's fine from a copyright POV. That said, some of it goes into rather more detail than I would personally consider necessary for an encyclopedia, which I feel should be taking a higher level perspective. But that's a seperate question, one of style, so let's deal with that seperately.

So, some work on adding to the image description pages would essentially resolve this issue, I expect. Could you do the honours, stardust? You've put in a fair bit of effort defending your uploads here, so I hope it's not too much to ask for you to help resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction? Martin 19:45, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I have organized an exhaustive body of evidence and legal precedence pointing to the images and textual information in this article being legal on my user page. Sorry, getting fed up with this make-shift forum system, and the uninformed people in it.

 * I am still working on the game suite's documentation. Some images will go in, and some will go out.  Once I have finished, I will check through the images ultimately included, and add more descriptive information.  Rest assured that no images will come from any official documentation that is packaged with the game suite.  In fact, my personal copy of the Settlers Almanac is physically in another state, because I lent it to my brother.
 * ~ stardust 22:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * OK, I'm willing to accecpt the current version, without the building costs card (which is a redrawing of the same card from the game{resource symbols on the left, picture of what you're building on the right}), but this article is now no longer an ecnyclopedia article, but is a game guide and should be moved to Wikibooks - Game Guides, which dosn't exist yet, but could incorporate the Computer Game Walkthroughs page.  Gentgeen 01:37, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The convention in all western cultures is to write equations from left to right; that convention falls within the public domain. The game uses circles on its Building Cost Card, as well as a tabular format, while this image uses miniature cards, and a floating format.  Please, either contribute to the unfinished sections or go somewhere else.
 * ~ stardust 15:12, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

For convenience of reference, copied from my comments at Possible copyright infringements: stardust, you clearly do understand fair use - nice job on collecting the cites as well. Jamesday 01:48, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * The game pieces and such appear to be a simple case of fair use in the context of our article describing the game, not a candidate for copyright infringement. This applies to both the online and print Wikipedia. The concept of transformative use is key here - the Wikipedia is not a game. Nor can thumbnail sized images of game maps and pieces infringe when used in this context.
 * Please read fair use and some of the cases which link to that article, notably the transformative use discussiion and fair use analysis in Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation and the full decision it links to. These game components don't come close to being copyright infringement.

Ahh, I read elsewhere that some (maybe all?) of these images were taken from a GPL'd clone of Settlers of Catan? Again, Stardust, it'd be really good if you could indicate this on the image description pages involved. I don't think there's a rush - but please don't forget this - otherwise we'll end up having the same discussion in a years time.... Martin 02:40, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The GPL is not the GFDL, and they're not compatible with one another. How big an issue that is I don't know, and we could probably get permission from the game maintainer to use them under the GFDL.  Pakaran 02:43, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, of course, we'd need an explicit GFDL grant - but that probably wouldn't be hard to get. Martin 02:57, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * It's not that big an issue (though we'd want to do it). You can make fair use of GPL and GFDL works as well as others and the fair use analysis is largely comparable in this case. Jamesday 20:06, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * There is still the problem that the developer of the port is not allowed to use the name "Catan" and has acknoldged that his port is an unlicenced and illegal implimentation of the game. I don't see how we could use images from this source, and I don't think he can release it under GFDL without any front-end or back-end text to that effect. Gentgeen 08:20, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * While Jay (the sole developer of S3D) is bound by trademark laws not to use the name "Settlers of Catan" in connection with any of his software, private citizens can extract images from his freeware (ha trust me, I have his permission... AFAIK only two or three people have the code required to do so), put it through alterations, and name and describe the new images with the protected trademark "Settlers of Catan" under a fair use relationship between said private citizen and Mayfair Games/Klaus Teuber (i.e. writing an informative entry on a trademark-protected game for educational purposes... distinct from creating a similar physical box set, and selling it in stores under the protected trademark). That is, it is a question of a fair use relationship only between the trademark holder, and the person who cites the trademark in an article; S3D and its avoidance of trademark conflicts falls out of relevance.  Trademark laws are designed to protect the commercial, market value of a name, not to restrict private citizens from mentioning it in their free, not-for-profit written work.  Two words, transformative use.  I can take a photograph of a giant pile of generic facial tissue, slap it onto a blog (not that I keep such a thing), and refer to it incorrectly as a pile of Kleenex, in an entry explaining how I was crying my heart out over how many people are a waste of oxygen in this wide world.  Don't tell me that Kleenex's legal team is going to come knock on my door over trademark infringement.
 * ~ stardust 15:12, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * While I agree with your fair use analysis, your trademark analysis is not really where we want to be. Passing off is the problem Jay might have. It's not problem in this article to show a picture which isn't a picture of an actual Catan piece BUT we do want to clearly indicate what the image is actually of and if it is representative rather than exact, we should say so, in order that we don't mislead people into thinking they are seeing something they aren't seeing - that's in part because we want to be accurate. Since the article is about Catan, it's preferable to use real images from Catan where fair use permits that. Mayfair games might reasonably be unhappy with us if we describe a different work as theirs, particularly if, in their opinion, it doesn't meet their production standards or view of how their implementation of the game should look. There's no great urgency about this (the online Wikipedia is legally safe because of the CDA, though you aren't) but it should be done.Jamesday 20:00, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You're argument is flawed. I, as a theoretical web user, could not go to your hypothetical blog, download the image of a box of Kleenex, and bypass their buisness, that is selling facial tissue. However, I can go to this page for the rules, go to the images stored on the wikipedia's servers for the game pieces, and bypass Mayfair's buisness, namely selling games. Kleenex isn't loosing money, Mayfair might be, so they are more motivated to try to stop it. Gentgeen 15:32, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * TRANSFORMATIVE USE: An image of facial tissue cannot be used to blow your nose. The images in the Settlers of Catan article cannot be used to play the game.  To build a two dimensional, makeshift copy of the game, one would have to make one's own images for the 37 tiles, 37 chits, use separate dice, make images for the game pieces in different colors, on top of printing the few images that are included in the article, not to mention playing with teeny tiny resource and development cards.  We already answered this question in our examination of fair use; the article in no way allows someone to bypass Mayfair's business.  While not being an advertisement, the article does raise awareness of the game (being an encyclopedia entry and all, with education and awareness in mind!), which is likely to boost Mayfair's business.  Let's hope your next comeback is not another blatant fallacy.
 * ~ stardust 15:44, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree with the analysis of stardust in the preceding paragraph. It neatly explains the core of why these images in this article are fair use. Jamesday 20:00, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

< Settlers of Catan

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Discussion from talk page
'''This thread has been moved from stardust's user talk page. It also discusses copyright and fair use, in the context of the Settlers of Catan game suite.'''

Regarding the Settlers of Catan pages:
 * Massive additions and restructuring underway.
 * All images originate from an open source implementation of Settlers of Catan. The developer has sanctioned this Wikipedia effort. The game is distributed at SourceForge under GPL licensing.

Please see the Image_use_policy page for the following policy statement:

It is not the job of rank-and-file Wikipedians to police every image for possible copyright infringement.

If you so choose, see also Copyrights, and point to the part that's violated by the contents of the Settlers of Catan documentation, before removing any part of that entry.

~ stardust 02:49, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Please rethink those cards you have uploaded and added to articles. They're copyrighted by the manufacturers and marketers, and I don't think posting them here, especially in such large quantities, is "fair use". RickK 04:30, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * See above regarding the origin of these images. Is the sample image of the settlers of catan bank copyrighted?  Or the image of that particular standard board configuration?  Does a photograph or illustration of someone reading The Return of the King, or people playing chess, or people playing settlers, constitute copyright infringement?  Are we concerned with origin or with likeness?  If the images were further processed to be fuzzier or smaller, would they still pose a concern?  If there is a gradient of fuzziness, where is the line drawn?
 * ~ stardust 05:06, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * None of those circumstances are what I'm talking about. Chess is not copyrighted.  Pictures of people palying Settlers are not copyrighted.  The cards are. RickK 16:29, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Tell me, what is the motivation behind your quest? To prevent Mayfair from charging Wikipedia with copyright infringement, when in fact they distribute these images for free themselves?  As I've posted on the article's Talk page, "Likewise, the jungle tile is copyrighted. This is what Mayfair has to say about that: "Feel free to copy this image and attach it to cardboard to create your own Jungle Tile!"  Same with the volcano tile.  At the point that Mayfair itself distributes its images freely, with the recommendation that people put them in play, whereas the Settlers of Catan article is merely informational and intended to fuel interest, and sales to boot, perhaps you need to find bone to pick somewhere else!"
 * ~ stardust 20:45, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Take a deep breath. Cool down a little bit.  RickK is just suggesting that the images are under copyright, and the copyright holder, Mayfair Games, has not released them under GNU_FDL, thus we can't realy have them here.  Mayfair releasing them for personal use in a copy of their game that you bought is different than them releasing them for comercial use, which is what this project is. Gentgeen 21:43, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I would suggest (as I have before) that the image descriptions give exact details as to the origin of the images. stardust has said that they are from the GPL game at sourceforge, so that should be OK. --snoyes 22:36, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * See Talk:Settlers of Catan, the images are acknoldged by the source website to be illegal, and to have been objected to by the game's designer. Gentgeen 00:52, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The implementation is acknowledged to be unlicensed. The images are privately created illustrations.  Do not make blanket changes to the document, such as removing all the images, including those beyond question.  That is an explicit violation of Wikipedia guidelines.
 * ~ stardust 02:24, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Really? Who says? RickK 08:10, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

STOP UPLOADING COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL!!!!! RickK 08:16, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If you continue to upload copyright material without permission, it will ultimately result in your account being blocked. By uploading material without permission, you put Wikipedia in serious jeopardy and create a lot of work as other more constructive editors work to undue the damage you are doing by breaking the law. Daniel Quinlan 08:28, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

For the law, as relevant to the United States, where the servers are located, please see Talk:Settlers of Catan. Gentgeen 08:52, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Read the excerpt above from the Wikipedia and copyright issues page. The copyright on Settlers of Catan protects Mayfair from anyone producing a physical, boxed game suite with the same or similar design as a product for the mass market.  It does not prevent anyone from sharing illustrations of any degree of likeness to the physical product.  This is protected by the First Amendment, which is quite relevent enough in the United States.
 * ~ stardust 08:54, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The First Amendment has nothing to do with copyright. You are not attempting to express free speech, but commercial exploitation.  RickK 08:58, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * It does in the context of fair use. Since the Wikipedia documentation generates no profit for anyone, and does not take away from the profit that Mayfair Games and Klaus Teuber gain from the sale of physical boxed sets, no commercial exploitation is involved.
 * ~ stardust 23:46, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8, Clause 8:
 * (The Congress shall have Power) To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

 * That clause in the constitution has never been amended. The last time I checked (about 45 minutes ago), US Code, Title 17, was the copyright law as approved by the United States Congress, and it has never been overturned by a court decision. Gentgeen 09:09, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Read the excerpt above from the Wikipedia and copyright issues page. The copyright on Settlers of Catan protects Mayfair from anyone producing a physical, boxed game suite with the same or similar design as a product for the mass market. It does not prevent anyone from sharing illustrations of any degree of likeness to the physical product.

 * The maps referenced by the copyright laws you have cited are things like world maps or city maps, sold for profit by the copyright holder. If Map Company A decides to produce and sell a map of Boston, it is free to do so.  If Map Company B decides to produce and sell their own map of Boston, it is also free to do so.  Map companies put fake, nonexistent alleys in their maps to try to catch other map companies that COPY their work exactly, down to the fake alleys.  Without these fakeouts, there is no infringement case.

 * Now all the game maps in the Settlers documentation are unique layouts that were randomly generated, and have not been published by anyone anywhere, for profit-generating sales of any kind. Sure they were generated following the rules of the game, but I am allowed to use the rules of the game in the making of my personal set of illustrations.  If I designed a new variant of the game on a new board with catan tiles, the Mayfair copyright would not bar me from sharing my new idea with everyone else.  This is protected by the First Amendment, which is quite relevent enough in the United States.

 * Furthermore, almost all of the text in the article is my own, plus some bits of the original article. Explaining the rules of a game is protected by the First Amendment as well.  Sure since it is about a copyrighted game, it is 'derivative' of the rules, but sharing ideas is not barred by any copyright law anywhere.  IMPLEMENTING the same idea in physical form for commercial profit IS illegal.  The dissimination of information in the Settlers documentation, with images that I have made myself, in words that I have written myself, is far from illegal.

 * ~ stardust 09:03, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

''However, the copyrightable portions are not under copyright protection unless the registration process has been completed. A search of US Copyright Office records reveals that no such registration has been completed for the Settlers of Catan game suite.''

 * This is not true and illustrates your complete lack of understanding of copyright law. Copyright is implicit, no registration is required for ownership of material to exist.  In addition, you don't even need to put "Copyright" or © on the work for it to be copyright.  This is not exclusive to the United States.

 * It is also probably not fair use. The amount of your copying is substantial and goes well beyond the amount necessary for writing articles about the game.

 * Daniel Quinlan 23:27, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * Your response indicates that you did not visit the link to the US Copyright Office, nor read the sentences regarding the portions of a game which are copyrightable, but must be registered.

 * It also indicates that you have not examined the factors for determining fair use, to which I have also provided a link. Image thumbnails for non-profit, informative purposes are fair use beyond a doubt.  The largest image on the page is the standard board layout, with is a layout randomly generated by me and previously unpublished, thus if anyone holds the copyright on it, I do.  Even if I provided a map scanned from an official source like the Settlers Almanac, I have provided several precedents that point to it being fair use.  See also Martin's image-by-image analysis of fair use on the Settlers of Catan discussion page.  Your two sentence response contains absolutely no research and/or original argumentation.  I would be interested to see if you can demonstrate, by pointing to precedents as I have, that the total quantity of representations included in the Wikipedia documentation outweighs all of the above circumstances that point to fair use.

 * ~ stardust 23:46, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The article contains thumbnails, but you're uploading much larger images of cards. I'll check out the link to the US copyright office later.  Daniel Quinlan 00:14, Dec 14, 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't have administrative controls to delete images I've uploaded that end up orphaned after the articles have been completed. So the body of images that I have uploaded includes some degree of overkill, that only time will correct.  Did you have a point here, other than to admit you haven't looked at the body of research I've posted?

 * ~ stardust 01:13, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the complement on my user talk page. I do have on quibble slightly with your fair use analysis, though: As Wikipedia is a free, open content encyclopedia, we encourage commercial companies to help us redistribute our material, possibly for a fee. So although Wikipedia is not-for-profit, and therefore could in theory take full advantage of fair use, we like to steer a slightly more conservative course in order to preserve our freeness.

Oh, one more thing... Wikipedia is not a democracy! :) It's more of a cryptocracy: nobody's quite sure who's in charge, but somehow decisions get made... Martin 02:25, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

From Poss. Copyright Infringements

 * Image:Soc-bank-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-bank-euro.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-yearofplenty-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-yearofplenty-euro.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-soldier-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-soldier-euro.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-roadbuilder-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-roadbuilder-euro.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-monopoly-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-monopoly-euro.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-chapel-usa.jpg, Image:Soc-dev-chapel-euro.jpg. Copyrighted game cards from the Settlers of Catan game.  RickK 04:29, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * And yet again more cards uploaded by User:Stardust. This user needs to be made to understand what copyrights mean. RickK 08:20, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Please read fair use and some of the cases which link to that article, notably the transformative use discussion and fair use analysis in Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation and the full decision it links to. These game components don't come close to being copyright infringement. Jamesday 01:41, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree. Keep. --Chuck SMITH 01:48, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * We cannot afford to take risks; delete. Morwen 08:05, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)
 * Please read this copyright and fair use summary before you vote. This discussion has closed at Talk:Settlers of Catan/copyright and fair use. ~ stardust 09:12, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Delete. I haven't looked at this issue in depth but a quick reading of user stardust's user page indicates some fundamental misunderstandings about copyright law, so I'm not willing to trust this user's judgement. --Imran 16:33, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * [[Media:Soc-thumb-allmaps-usa.jpg]], [[Media:Soc-bank-usa.jpg]], [[Media:Image:Soc-bank-euro.jpg]], [[Media:Soc-dev-yearofplenty-usa.jpg]], [[Media:Soc-dev-yearofplenty-euro.jpg]], and on and on; source page admits it is an illegal violation of copyright. See Talk:Settlers of Catan for previous discussion. Gentgeen 01:08, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * The game pieces and such appear to be a simple case of fair use in the context of our article describing the game, not a candidate for copyright infringement. This applies to both the online and print Wikipedia. The concept of transformative use is key here - the Wikipedia is not a game. Nor can thumbnail sized images of game maps and pieces infringe when used in this context. Jamesday 01:41, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * We cannot afford to take risks; delete. Morwen 08:05, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)
 * The risk here is simply of a baseless copyright infringement claim. Game reviews, descriptions and guides, including in published book form without any license from the publisher of the game concerned, are very well established as routine fair use. Indeed, the independent ones are sometimes better received than those bearing the "official" moniker, when both exist, because the unofficial ones, in the computer game context, often contain details of cheat codes and such which aren't in the officially blessed version. Would be nice to have some licensed images from the Mayfair Games version of the game, though, and I gather that stardust is also pursuing that route. Jamesday 21:35, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Please read this copyright and fair use summary before you vote. This discussion has closed at Talk:Settlers of Catan/copyright and fair use. ~ stardust 09:12, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. --Chuck SMITH 01:48, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Entire second paragraph and beyond, blatant violation
The entire second paragraph of the article is lifted verbatim from the entire third paragraph on, and then subsequent paragraphs of the article were lifted whole from the same source and barely edited at all. When I went to check out the other source, I was astounded to discover that I had read all of it before. If there is any limit to how much you can lift verbatim from another source without a copyright violation, then I am certain this article exceeds it. Aumakua 03:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

< Talk:Settlers of Catan


text:
Alberto della Marmora

Alberto Ferrero La Marmora (or Della Marmora; 7 April 1789 – 18 March 1863) was an Italian soldier and naturalist. He was elder brother to Alessandro Ferrero La Marmora, soldier and founder of the Bersaglieri, and to Alfonso Ferrero La Marmora, Italian general and statesman.

Born in Turin but educated at the Ecole Militaire de Fontainebleau, graduating in 1807, he was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant of infantry in the French Army. He was the second of four brothers, all of whom had distinguished military careers. He served under MacDonald in Calabria and in 1809 he joined the army of the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, participating in the campaign in Venetia. He fought at the Battle of Bautzen at the age of 24 and following the defeat of the combined Russian and Prussian forces in that engagement he was personally decorated with the Legion d'Honneur by Napoleon Bonaparte. After Napoleon's abdication Marmora gave his allegiance to the House of Savoy, the ruling house of the Kingdom of Sardinia.

Marmora was posted to Sardinia, from where he sent the first specimens of the warbler that bears his name, Sylvia sarda or Marmora's warbler, to Turin, where his description was read out at the Turin Academy on 28 August 1819.

He was forced to resign his commission during the insurrection of 1820–21, due to his sympathy with the rebels. Three years later, he was recalled to active service, mainly in Sardinia. Despite his liberal sympathies, he rose to the rank of General and in 1840 he was given command of the Royal School of Marines. In 1845 in collaboration with the knight and major Carlo de Candia, he created the large maritime map of Sardinia in 1: 250,000 scale, travel version. He became Governor-General of Sardinia in 1849, eventually retiring to Turin where he died age 73 on 18 March 1863.

He wrote Viaggio in Sardegna (Travels in Sardinia) in 1860, which extended the study of the island previously made by Francesco Cetti. Many of the animals collected by La Marmora were sent to Franco Andrea Bonelli at Turin University, and he also corresponded with Bonelli's successor, Giuseppe Gené.

The highest point of Sardinia is Punta La Marmora, commemorating the physical and geological surveys of the island Marmora conducted

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Alberto della Marmora


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Spider hole

In military slang, a spider hole is a type of camouflaged one-man foxhole, similar to a surveillance/hidesite used for observation.

Etymology
The term is usually understood to be an allusion to the camouflaged hole constructed by the trapdoor spider.

According to United States Marine Corps historian Major Chuck Melson, the term originated in the American Civil War, when it meant a hastily dug foxhole.

Following the capture of Saddam Hussein, the American columnist William Safire claimed in the December 15, 2003, issue of the New York Times that the term originated in the Vietnam War. According to Safire, one of the characteristics of these holes was that they held a "clay pot large enough to hold a crouching man." If the pot broke, the soldier was exposed to attack from snakes or spiders, hence the name "spider hole".

Design
A spider hole is typically a shoulder-deep, protective, round hole, often covered by a camouflaged lid, in which a soldier can stand and fire a weapon. A spider hole differs from a typical foxhole in that a foxhole is usually deeper and designed to emphasize cover rather than concealment.

Use
Spider holes were used during World War II by Japanese forces on many Pacific battlefields, including Leyte in the Philippines and Iwo Jima. They called them "octopus pots" (蛸壺) for a fancied resemblance to the pots used to catch octopuses in Japan.

Spider holes were also used by fighters of the Viet Cong and soldiers of the People's Army of Vietnam during the Vietnam War as both defensive and offensive fortifications, where VC/PAVN fighters could either seek shelter from combat with ARVN, US or other allied forces, or could conceal themselves in preparation for a surprise attack.

On December 13, 2003, during the Iraq War, American forces in Operation Red Dawn captured Iraqi president Saddam Hussein hiding in what was characterized as a "spider hole" outside an Ad-Dawr farmhouse (near his hometown of Tikrit).

title: Spider hole


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User:Goodralph

Hi! I was an undergraduate student at the University of California, Berkeley. I joined Wikipedia on 14 December 2003.

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About me
I majored in Operations Research and Management Science in the Department of Industrial Engineering. I enjoy entrepreneurship, video games, urban planning, and watching sports.

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Contribute:
 * Entrepreneurship
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title: User:Goodralph


text:
Samira Shahbandar

Samira Shahbandar (سميرة الشهابندر, born 1946) is a former Iraqi physician. She was the second wife of Saddam Hussein.

Early life
Shahbandar was born in Baghdad, Iraq in 1946 into an aristocratic Baghdad family.

Career
Shahbandar was reported to have had careers as a flight attendant and as a physician. She was a teacher

Personal life
Shahbandar was married to Noureddine Al Safi from Al Safi Family, an Iraqi pilot and manager of Iraqi Airways. They have two children. Shahbandar's son Mohammad Saffi was born in 1966.

In 1983, Shahbandar met Saddam Hussein, whom she reportedly had a son with. Saddam's eldest son Uday was reported to have envied him. Saddam Hussein forced her husband to divorce her. In 1986, Shahbandar was married to Saddam Hussein in secret. In the late 1980s, Shahbandar appeared in public with Saddam Hussein.

Kamel Hana Gegeo, Hussein's valet, food taster and friend, introduced Samira to him. Hussein's secret marriage took place while he was married to Sajida Talfah, his first wife and cousin. Sajida was extremely jealous and angry when she found out about his mistress, and her brother Adnan Khairallah complained. Uday Hussein, Saddam Hussein's son with Sajida, was also angry over his father's mistress, took it as an insult to his mother, and believed that his status as heir apparent was threatened. In October 1988, during a party, Uday Hussein murdered Kamel Hana Gegeo in front of horrified guests. While Saddam Hussein declared that Uday would be tried for murder, Gegeo's parents and Sajida begged that Uday be pardoned.

In 2002, Shahbandar's son from her first marriage, Mohammad Saffi, a resident of New Zealand and a flight engineer with Air New Zealand, was detained in Miami, Florida, US due to lack of a student visa where he planned to undergo flight training.

As of 2004, Shahbandar was acknowledged as the wife of Saddam Hussein by United Nations.

Depictions
Her character was featured heavily in the plot of BBC adaptation of House of Saddam and was played by Australian actress Christine Stephen-Daly. In the drama, Shahbandar is portrayed as a schoolteacher, the occupation of Sajida Talfah.

Possible issue
In a 2007 Al Riyadh interview, Ali Al-Nida Husein Al-Omar, chief of the Bejat subtribe of Al-Bu Nasir, was asked about Saddam's son from Samira Shahbandar. The chief replied:        "'Saddam had only two wives, the first was Umm [Mother of] Uday and Qusay, Sajida Khairallah Talfah and the other he married after a while, [was] Samira al-Shahbandar, he married her when she was 40 years old and she had no children from him.'"

title: Samira Shahbandar


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List of Babylon 5 episodes

Babylon 5 is an American science fiction television series created, produced and largely written by J. Michael Straczynski. The show centers on the Babylon 5 space station: a focal point for politics, diplomacy, and conflict during the years 2257–2262. With its prominent use of planned story arcs, the series was often described as a "novel for television".

The pilot film premiered on February 22, 1993. The regular series aired from January 26, 1994, and ran for five full seasons. Due to Warner corporate structure and policy concerning syndication in general, and syndication of properties produced by the defunct PTEN division in particular, the show has been syndicated only briefly, and did not appear on U.S. television from 2003 through 2018 (though it has aired in other countries). In 2018, the show began airing nightly on the Comet TV Sci-Fi Network. The show spawned six television films and a spin-off series, Crusade, which aired in 1999 and ran for 13 episodes. On July 31, 2007, a DVD was released containing two short films about selected characters from the series.

The five seasons of the series each correspond to one fictional sequential year in the period 2258–2262. Each season shares its name with an episode that is central to that season's plot. As the series starts, the Babylon 5 station is welcoming ambassadors from various races in the galaxy. Earth has just barely survived an accidental war with the powerful Minbari, who, despite their superior technology, mysteriously surrendered at the brink of the destruction of the human race.

Some episodes in the second season were aired out of their intended chronological sequence. Straczynski confirmed that in Season 2, "A Race Through Dark Places" should precede "Soul Mates," and that "Knives" should precede "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum."

Season 1: Signs and Portents (1994)
During 2258, Commander Jeffrey Sinclair is in charge of the station, assisted by executive officer Susan Ivanova and security chief Michael Garibaldi. The season traces his gradual recollection of his capture by the Minbari during their war with humans. The Minbari came to believe that Sinclair carried the soul of Valen, a revered Minbari leader. Inferring that Minbari souls were being reborn as humans, the Minbari surrendered to avoid further fratricide. This action is a source of internal strife between some Minbari.

Meanwhile, tensions between the Centauri Republic, an empire in decline, and the Narn Regime, a former Centauri dominion which successfully rebelled, are increasing. Seeking for his people to regain their former prominence, Mollari makes a deal with a mysterious ally, Mr. Morden, to strike back at the Narn. On Earth, some humans resent the influence of aliens, and seek to eliminate them from Earth-owned property, including Babylon 5.

Minbari Ambassador Delenn is revealed to belong to the Grey Council, the Minbari ruling body. She eventually transforms into a Minbari/human hybrid, ostensibly to build a bridge between the humans and Minbari. The year ends with the death of Earth Alliance president Luis Santiago, which the staff of Babylon 5 believe to have been an assassination.

Season 2: The Coming of Shadows (1994–1995)
Captain John Sheridan assumes the military governance of the station after Sinclair is reassigned, without explanation, to Minbar. He and the command staff discover that now-president Morgan Clark arranged the assassination of President Santiago. Conflict develops between the Babylon 5 command staff and the Psi Corps, an increasingly autocratic organization which oversees and controls the lives of human telepaths.

Ambassador Mollari, in preparation for the death of the ailing Centauri Emperor, works with Lord Refa to assassinate any challengers to the throne, while continuing to utilize Mr. Morden and his "associates"—the Shadows—against the Narn. When the emperor dies, Mollari and Refa place the emperor's unstable nephew, Cartagia, on the throne. Through him they instigate full-scale war with the Narn, using weapons of mass destruction to conquer the Narn homeworld.

Earth's government becomes more totalitarian, suppressing dissent and broadcasting propaganda. Kosh and other Vorlons approach Sheridan and reveal themselves to be the enemies of the Shadows, asking for Sheridan's help to fight them.

Season 3: Point of No Return (1995–1996)
Earth's government continues to become more xenophobic, while on Babylon 5, Sheridan and Delenn, who become romantically involved during the course of the season, create a "conspiracy of light" to try to reveal the truth behind the Shadows' influence. Historically tense relations between Earth and its Mars colony reach breaking point when Mars declares independence and Earth's government declares martial law and attacks. Sheridan, outraged, withdraws Babylon 5 from the Earth Alliance, supported by the Minbari.

The fate of Babylon 4 is discovered when Sinclair returns to the station to request Sheridan's help: Sinclair had been destined to use time travel to take Babylon 4 back in time to the previous Shadow war, where he is transformed into the revered Minbari leader, Valen, using the same device Delenn used for her transformation.

Ambassador Mollari realizes his deal with the Shadows has become dangerous and tries to sever ties with Mr. Morden, but fails. Kosh informs Sheridan that the Shadows can be fought with telepaths. The Vorlons attack the Shadows at Sheridan's insistence, but the Shadows kill Kosh in retaliation.

Sheridan's wife, presumed dead on an archaeological dig on the planet Z'ha'dum years earlier, arrives at the station and convinces Sheridan to accompany her to Z'ha'dum. The Shadows attempt to force Sheridan to join their cause, their ships threatening Babylon 5. Sheridan, guided by Kosh's words, flies a vessel loaded with explosives into the planet while jumping into a large chasm. The Shadow ships withdraw, but Garibaldi, deployed to defend the station, does not return.

Season 4: No Surrender, No Retreat (1996–1997)
Sheridan returns from Z'ha'dum with the help of a strange being known as Lorien, who has given Sheridan 20 more years to live. The Vorlons alarm the other races when they begin destroying entire planets that have been influenced by the Shadows. Mollari, fearing the Vorlons will destroy Centauri Prime, destroys the Shadow base there and executes Mr. Morden. Sheridan learns that the Vorlons and Shadows were tasked as caretakers for younger races in the galaxy, but due to profound differences in ideology have been at war for eons, using the younger races as pawns in a proxy war. With the help of other ancient races, Sheridan convinces the Vorlons and Shadows to leave and cease interfering with the younger races.

Garibaldi returns to Babylon 5, with no explanation for his disappearance. He has unexplained changes in behavior and distances himself from the command staff, resigning and relocating to Mars to work with tycoon William Edgars. He also subdues Sheridan, allowing the latter to be kidnapped. It is revealed that Garibaldi was co-opted by the Psi-Corps to spy on Edgars, who is found to be developing a virus to destroy telepaths.

With the Vorlons and Shadows gone, Earth's totalitarian government attempts to use the captured Sheridan as a propaganda tool, but Garibaldi - now free from Psi-Corps influence - rescues him. A brief civil war breaks out on Earth, culminating in President Clark's suicide and Sheridan's surrender to Earth forces. Ivanova is critically injured in the war, and leaves the station to take command of her own vessel.

The League of Non-Aligned Worlds are reorganized into an Interstellar Alliance with Earth, Minbar, Narn, and Centauri acting as a United Nations across the galaxy, with the Rangers as their enforcers. Sheridan is made president of the Alliance, and he and Delenn marry.

Season 5: The Wheel of Fire (1998)
In 2262, Earthforce Captain Elizabeth Lochley is appointed to command Babylon 5, which is now also the headquarters of the Interstellar Alliance. A conflict arises between Psi-Corps and a group of rogue telepaths that are seeking their own homeworld after learning that the Vorlons created telepaths as weapons against the Shadows. When several telepaths martyr themselves, Lyta leads attacks against the Psi-Corps, becoming an enemy of the state.

Alliance trade and civilian ships are being attacked by an unknown force, and evidence is discovered that the Centauri may be involved. Mollari discovers that the Drakh, a Shadow-allied race, have forced the Centauri leadership to precipitate war with the Alliance, in part as revenge for Mollari's turn against the Shadows. Mollari is forced to co-operate when he becomes Emperor and withdraws the Centauri from the Alliance. Vir becomes the Centauri ambassador on the station.

Separate stories show the long-standing members of Babylon 5 making plans to leave the station: Sheridan and Delenn move to the Alliance's permanent headquarters on Minbar. Garibaldi, having relapsed in his alcoholism, is aided by Lise and the two marry and return to Mars. Dr. Franklin takes a position on Earth as head of xenobiology. G'Kar discovers he has become a religious figure and unable to stay on the station or return to Narn, exiles himself to travel the galaxy, taking Lyta with him since she is in a similar position.

Twenty years after his return from Z'ha'dum, Sheridan feels his life fading. He has the Rangers gather his old friends on Minbar for a farewell party. The next day, Sheridan attempts to leave while Delenn is asleep but she stops him to say a final goodbye. Alone, Sheridan revisits Babylon 5, now being decommissioned, before continuing to the location of the final Vorlon–Shadow encounter. Drawing his last breaths, he is met by Lorien, who invites Sheridan to travel beyond the galactic rim. Sheridan's ship is found adrift and empty some days later.

References and notes
Episodi di Babylon 5 (prima stagione)

title: List of Babylon 5 episodes


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Talk:Spider hole

Foxhole
Since nothing links here, and since 'spider hole' is a linguistic extension of foxhole, wouldn't this information be more findable as a paragraph at 'Foxhole'? Wetman 14:32, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Two pages linked here when I started creating the article. I have no objection to moving the material to foxhole, with "spider hole" as a redirect. -- Infrogmation 14:40, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Seems like a good idea. At the moment we have "A spider hole is a fox hole" but no clue what a fox hole is! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 21:26, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * That's fine. Whichever article they're in, I think we should remark that the two aren't quite the same thing.  I believe a foxhole is a militant hole, whereas a spider hole is a militant hole with a camouflaged lid. -- Finlay McWalter 21:45, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Safire
I just added William Safire's theory on the term's Vitenam War etymology. If someone can produce a quotation or reference from the WWII era using the term 'spider hole', I would be happy to see the Safire reference deleted. Dunhamrc 16:52, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Safire is clueless, I'm afraid - the name has nothing to do with whether you might find spiders in them (even though you might). -- ChrisO 21:29, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I can't speak with any authority, but it looks like a fairly direct reference to the Trapdoor Spiders to me. ASWilson 18:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Likewise here, my understanding of the name origin of 'Spider Hole' was taken from the behaviour of the Trapdoor Spider, who digs such a concealed pit and waits to ambush prey that comes near. In the same manner, the concealed man in the spider hole observes and potentially ambushes 'prey' (enemy troops). The 'break it and spiders will get you' explanation makes no sense, as ANY ground-dwelling pest can potentially get at you. Singling out spiders seems very unlikely in this case, especially when a much more sensible definition exists. Occam's Razor and all that.

This origin should be removed or at LEAST the trapdoor spider comparison added. 209.52.88.48 (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

 * I think Safire should go. The man likely has no idea what he's talking about since the only references to clay pots with snakes and spiders I can find are his quotations. Not only that, but regardless of what kinds of nastyness the VC were up to, snakes and spiders make very unreliable weaponry and breaking a pot filled with them is not going to be an explosive event.. you're just going to have a lump of confused animals among pottery shards. Atzel 13:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh wait... I think I completely misunderstood what he ment. Still, it seems like a very unlikely explanation since spider holes still does not contain clay pots ^_^ Atzel 13:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Even if Safire is dead wrong, his comments should stay (and be explained that they are wrong). Safire is thought of as somewhat of a linguistic expert in some circles, and there are probably more than a few people who believe the false etymology based on his authority. If you don't include a "we know about this, and after due consideration we believe it's wrong," there will be a fair number of people who would conclude that Wikipedia is the one which is clueless. -- 21:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Mention of Saddam
Are we going to mention every instance that someone was found in a foxhole, or just one? Seems a bit silly to include that bit of trivia. --The following unsigned comment was made by 142.161.95.0 at 03:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Considering that this was a noteworthy event to the world, and made news for months afterwards, I'd like to think its worth mention.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 04:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the first comment. The event was well publicised in the US and UK for a while, but will not be relevant to this topic in the future. Rob cowie 16:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

It would seem to fall in line with the mentioning of notable use of spider holes in other wars/military actions. And notable events can tend to contribute to an article. Since the reference was used on the main page recently(probably the reason for the flood of edits) it is definitely a notable event. How saddam was found is definitely something that will wind up in history textbooks, so it makes sense to have it here, or at the least, does not gain anything by truncating it from the article.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 19:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it's fair enough to mention it. The term "spider hole" seems to have only became widely known among the general public after Saddam was found in one. -- ChrisO 20:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Difference from foxholes
This seems unclear "A spider hole differs from a foxhole in that it is usually deeper and may afford access to a tunnel system." I would believe by reading this that its probably the spider hole that is deeper and connected to a tunnel system but if I recall correctly isn't it the opposite?-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 04:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking for a black-and-white WW2 Movie set in the Pacific Front
The only thing I can remember about it was a scene where two Marines killed a Japanese Sniper inside a spider hole near an Ammo Dump and hid inside it when they sensed that a group of Japanese Soldiers were coming. When a Japanese Officer went to check on the Spider Hole, one of the Marines spoke fluent Japanese and managed to avoid arousing suspicion. --Arima (talk) 04:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spider hole


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Endgame

Endgame, Endgames, End Game, End Games, or similar variations may refer to:

Film

 * The End of the Game (1919 film)
 * The End of the Game (1975 film), short documentary U.S. film
 * Endgame (1983 film), an Italian post-apocalyptic film
 * End Game, a 1987 Indian short animated film about nuclear holocaust, winner of the National Film Award for Best Non-Feature Animation Film
 * Endgame (1999 film), a short film about chess
 * End Game (2006 film), a political thriller
 * Endgame (2007 film), an Alex Jones film, subtitled "Blueprint for Global Enslavement"
 * Endgame (2009 film), a British film about the end of apartheid in South Africa
 * Endgame (2015 film), an American film starring Rico Rodriguez
 * End Game (2018 film), an Oscar-nominated documentary short film about terminally ill patients in San Francisco
 * Endgame (2021 film), a Chinese-Hong Kong action black comedy film
 * Avengers: Endgame, the fourth film in the Avengers series, released in 2019
 * Dead Rising: Endgame, a 2016 horror film
 * Highlander: Endgame, the fourth film in the Highlander series, released in 2000

Television

 * End game, a synonym for "bonus round" in a television game show
 * Endgame (TV series), 2011 Showcase television series
 * "Endgame", a second-season episode of Alias
 * "Endgame", the series finale of Alienators: Evolution Continues
 * "Endgame" (Babylon 5), a fourth season episode
 * "Endgame", the three-part series finale of Beast Machines
 * "End Game", an episode of Dinosaur Revolution
 * "Endgame", the two-part series finale of Generator Rex
 * "End Game" (Homicide: Life on the Street), a third season episode
 * "Endgame" (Kyle XY), the first season finale
 * "Endgame" (Law & Order: Criminal Intent), the sixth season finale
 * "The Endgame Syndrome", the two-part series finale of Men in Black: The Series
 * "Endgame", a seventh season episode of NCIS
 * "Endgame", the fourth season premiere of NCIS: Los Angeles
 * "Endgame" (Person of Interest), a third-season episode
 * "Endgame" (Star Trek: Voyager), the two-hour series finale
 * "Endgame" (Stargate SG-1), an eighth season episode
 * "Endgame" (The Unit), a fourth season episode
 * "End Game" (The X-Files), a second season episode
 * "Endgame", the two-part "finale" of Transformers: Animated
 * "Endgame", the second season finale of Young Justice
 * "End Game", the season finale and seventh episode of The Queen's Gambit
 * "Endgame", the two-part finale of Generator Rex
 * "Endgame" (The Legend of Korra), the season one finale of The Legend of Korra
 * "Endgame", a fourth season episode of Xena: Warrior Princess
 * "Endgame", the season finale episode of the third season of Scream
 * The Endgame, 2022 NBC television series

Games

 * Chess endgame, the stage of a chess game when there are few pieces left on the board
 * Endgame (video game), a 2002 video game
 * Endgame: Singularity, a 2005 video game
 * Endgame: Syria, a 2012 video game
 * End Game: Union Multiplayer, a 2022 video game
 * Endgame: Proving Ground, an unreleased video game
 * Endgame (video gaming), extended gameplay for which players return after completing the core game objectives
 * End Game, an expansion pack for the video game, Battlefield 3
 * End Game, the publisher of ZombsRoyale.io
 * Endplay, the stage of the play of the cards when there are few cards left in each hand

Literature

 * The Endgame: The Inside Story of the Struggle for Iraq, from George W. Bush to Barack Obama, by Michael R. Gordon and Bernard E. Trainor
 * Endgame (play), a 1957 play by Samuel Beckett
 * Endgame (Jensen books), a two-volume work written by Derrick Jensen
 * Endgame: The Blueprint for Victory in the War on Terror, a non-fiction book by Thomas McInerney and Paul E. Vallely
 * Endgame: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Bobby Fischer, a non-fiction book by Frank Brady on chess champion Bobby Fischer
 * End Games, a 2007 crime novel by Michael Dibdin
 * Batman: Endgame, a comic book story arc featuring the Joker
 * End Game: Tipping Point for Planet Earth, a 2015 non-fiction book by Anthony Barnosky and Elizabeth Hadly
 * Endgame, the sixth and final Noughts & Crosses (novel series) book by Malorie Blackman
 * Endgame: Inside the Royal Family and the Monarchy's Fight for Survival, a 2023 book by Omid Scobie

Science fiction and fantasy

 * The End of the Game (1986 collection) anthology by Sheri S. Tepper in the series The True Game
 * Endgame (anthology), an anthology of short fiction in the Merovingen Nights science fiction series
 * Endgame (Doctor Who), a Doctor Who novel
 * Clone Wars Volume 9: Endgame, the ninth in a series of trade paperbacks entitled Clone Wars
 * Endgame, the second part of the 2013 novelization of the first book of the animated TV series The Legend of Korra
 * Endgame: The Calling, a novel by James Frey
 * End-Game, a short story by British sci-fi author J.G Ballard in the collection The Terminal Beach
 * Endgames, the 12th book in the series The Imager Portfolio, by L. E. Modesitt Jr.

Music

 * Endgames (band), new wave/funk group from Scotland
 * Endgame (opera), 2018 opera based on Beckett's play, by György Kurtág

Albums

 * The End of the Game, a 1970 album by British blues rock musician Peter Green
 * Endgame (Megadeth album), a 2009 album by Megadeth; also the album's title track
 * Endgame (Rise Against album), a 2011 album by Rise Against; also the album's title track
 * Endgame Tour, a concert tour by Rise Against in support of the above album
 * Endgame (Blood of the Martyrs EP), a 2016 extended play by Blood of the Martyrs

Songs

 * "End Game" (song), a track on the 2017 Taylor Swift album Reputation
 * "Endgame", a track on the 1991 R.E.M. album Out of Time
 * "Endgames", a track on the 1999 Godflesh album Us and Them
 * "End Game", a track on the 1983 Ian Anderson album Walk into Light
 * "End Game", a track on the 1969 Lalo Schifrin album Mannix
 * "Endgame", a track on the 2019 Angel Olsen album All Mirrors

Other uses

 * Climate endgame, an hypothesis of global societal collapse due to effects of climate change
 * End Game, a term in BitTorrent vocabulary concerning its method for obtaining the final few pieces of a file
 * Endgame, Inc., a company that provides computer vulnerability research
 * Operation Endgame, a plan by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security

title: Endgame


text:
Talk:Third Way

Someone keeps editing this page with poor grammar and the edits are incorrect
The edits all say that "third way" is also called "Third Way Neoliberalism" which I have ZERO source for, even though i have provided a source for why it it sometimes called "Modernised Social Democracy". This editor continues putting original information, and makes the blatantly untrue assertion that "Third Way" is a synthesis of Neoliberal Economic policy and centre-left social policy MrFluffster (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Assuming that 3rd way means social democracy is a completely ahistorical fallacy
While social democracy can today be seen as a 3rd way, the only consistent meaning of "3rd" way is that between the (Old Anarchist and) Communist ideologies based on the writings of Marx.

This is more commonly taken to mean specifically the "3rd way" during the run up to WW2, which was Fascism or National socialism; In other words, full "incorporation" into the corporate state, also known as totalitarianism.

Thus, according to proponents, both capitalism and socialist variants of the old were to be avoided, but to that extent also capitalism fully utilized and socialism fully implemented in a more fundamental way than by trying to "undo" the productive capital forces.

There should be historical sources available for these, but I am currently lacking them.

83.255.180.77 (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Third Way


text:
Ralphs

Ralphs is an American supermarket chain in Southern California. The largest subsidiary of Cincinnati-based Kroger, it is the oldest such chain west of the Mississippi River. Kroger also operates stores under the Food 4 Less and Foods Co. names in California.

History
Ralphs Grocery Company was founded in 1873 in Los Angeles by George Albert Ralphs and his brother, Walter Benjamin Ralphs. Ralphs teamed with S. A. Francis in 1873 to open the Ralphs & Francis store at 5th and Hill – an area which would become the Historic Core of the city in the early 20th century, but was then a mostly residential area with many single-family houses. In 1875, Ralphs’s brother Walter bought out Francis’s share, and the business became the Ralphs Bros. Grocers, specializing in produce. The business boomed. In 1876 they constructed a two-story building at the southwest corner of Sixth and Spring.

In the 20th century, Ralphs became a grocery pioneer, offering self-service markets with checkout stands in distributed locations. The company employed notable architects in designing its stores, and the former Ralphs Grocery Store building built in 1929 in Westwood Village has been photographed by Ansel Adams, declared a Historic Cultural Monument, and listed on the National Register of Historic Places. In the 1980s, it created a chain of hybrid supermarket/warehouse stores called The Giant, which failed, but the concept returned with the company's merger with the Food 4 Less discount chain. In 1968, Ralphs was acquired by Federated Department Stores, based in Cincinnati.

In 1988, Canada-based Campeau Corporation launched a $4.2 billion hostile takeover of Federated, Ralphs's parent. Ralphs would then be put up for sale, with American Stores (owner of rival chain Lucky) making an offer.

In 1992, Federated, now known as Macy's, Inc., sold Ralphs to a group of owners, led by Edward J. DeBartolo Corporation, after filing for bankruptcy two years earlier in 1990. In 1994, Ralphs was acquired by the Yucaipa Companies for $1.5 billion. Yucaipa owned ABC Markets, Alpha Beta,, and Cala Foods. Soon, all ABC Markets, Alpha Betas, and Boys Markets were rebranded as Ralphs. At the same time, Food 4 Less was merged with Ralphs. In 1997, Yucaipa sold Ralphs to Portland, Oregon based Fred Meyer, owner of several chains in the west. Soon, Ralphs Marketplace stores started opening in suburban areas; these stores are based on the Fred Meyer model but without apparel. At the same time, they also acquired the 57-store Hughes Family Markets chain. In October 1998, the parent company, Fred Meyer, merged with Kroger of Cincinnati, Ohio.

In 1999, Ralphs purchased about 30 Albertsons and Lucky stores, mostly in Northern California, as well as stores in the Central Coast region, and one store each in Bakersfield and Laguna Beach. The stores were divested as a result of the Albertsons and American Stores merger and marked the chain's reentry into Northern California after a short-lived expansion in the 1970s.

In 2005, Ralphs exited the Bakersfield market, closing 3 stores.

Ralphs operated in Northern California until January 2006, when they announced that all but one Ralphs in northern California would close. In August 2006, the one remaining Ralphs in northern California, in Grass Valley, was given a 60-day notice of closure, ending Ralphs' presence in northern California for the second time. Also, in August 2006, Ralphs finalized plans to sell eleven (of thirteen remaining) Cala-Bell Stores to Harley DeLano, who previously ran the chain.

On July 20, 2007, Ralphs opened a new 50000 sqft store on 9th and Hope Street in the South Park neighborhood of downtown Los Angeles. This was the first full-run supermarket downtown in 50 years. In 1950, Ralphs closed a store at 7th Street and Figueroa Street.

In 2023, Ralphs President Tom Schwilke announced plans to open a new Ralphs store within the next two years, the first new store opening in over 10 years.

Today, Ralphs competes with Albertsons (including Vons) and Stater Bros. Its slogan is "Fresh for Everyone," also used by all other Kroger grocery store brands. Ralphs is the current market share leader in Southern California.

2003–04 strike
Ralphs Grocery Company has contracts with the United Food and Commercial Workers, the largest grocery union in the United States. In late 2003 and early 2004, Ralphs locked out its workers who were members of the UFCW in sympathy with competitor Vons (owned by Safeway Inc.) in Southern California, after the UFCW had declared a strike against Vons. The issues in contract negotiations included healthcare benefits and wage structure, which the supermarkets contended were necessary to reduce costs and remain competitive in the face of the rise of discount chains like Walmart. In March 2004, the strike ended with a settlement regarded as a victory for the grocery chains—new hires would be on a much lower pay scale than existing workers and receive less generous health benefits.

On October 16, 2006, Ralphs agreed to pay $70 million to settle felony charges that it illegally rehired locked out employees using false names and Social Security numbers during the strike. Eligible UFCW members received $50 million of the settlement and the remainder was paid in fines to the federal government.

In popular culture
The photorealist painter Robert Cottingham depicted a Ralphs supermarket in his 1968 painting "Ralph's II", which has been displayed by the Milwaukee Art Museum.

The Coen Brothers' 1998 film The Big Lebowski opens with its main character, The Dude, played by Jeff Bridges, walking through a Ralphs supermarket. Later in the film, The Dude is searched by the Malibu Chief of Police, who, upon finding his Ralphs Card, asks "Is this your only form of ID?" In a mortuary, the character Walter Sobchak complains about the high price of an urn to house the ashes of a friend. After asking the funeral director, "Is there a Ralphs around here?", the scene cuts to Walter overlooking the Pacific Ocean holding a Folgers Coffee can.

In the movie Messiah of Evil, one of the main characters, Laura, follows a mysterious figure into a deserted Ralphs supermarket, where she is chased, attacked, and eaten by zombies.

In The Powerpuff Girls, there is a grocery store called "Malph's".

A parody of Ralphs packaging was used as the cover for the 1986 album Album by Public Image Ltd.

Ralphs supermarket line of generic brand products were featured prominently in the 1984 film Repo Man; almost all products featured were donated by the supermarket.

Ralphs was the primary sponsor for the #11 car of Brett Bodine in the 2000–2001 NASCAR Winston Cup Series seasons.

A package of Ralphs green beans can be seen in a refrigerator in the closing moments of Season 5 Episode 11 of The Practice. This was a likely error by the prop department, since the show takes place in Boston.

In the podcast radio drama Welcome to Night Vale, the chain is occasionally mentioned in the context of a "hole in the vacant lot out back of the Ralphs." This is in spite of a lack of confirmation or evidence that the town of Night Vale is located in Southern California.

In the 1992 film Forever Young, when Mel Gibson's character wakes up in 1992 to discover he has been cryogenically frozen since 1939, he goes to a pay telephone to call a friend from his past, across the street from the pay phone is a Ralphs store. Later when trying to tell someone where his friend from the past lived Gibson's character says "There's a place called Ralphs there now."

Ralphs generic products were featured in the Suicidal Tendencies music video for ”Institutionalized”.

title: Ralphs


text:
Affine

Affine may describe any of various topics concerned with connections or affinities. It may refer to:

 * Affine, a relative by marriage in law and anthropology
 * Affine cipher, a special case of the more general substitution cipher
 * Affine combination, a certain kind of constrained linear combination
 * Affine connection, a connection on the tangent bundle of a differentiable manifold
 * Affine Coordinate System, a coordinate system that can be viewed as a Cartesian coordinate system where the axes have been placed so that they are not necessarily orthogonal to each other. See tensor.
 * Affine differential geometry, a geometry that studies differential invariants under the action of the special affine group
 * Affine gap penalty, the most widely used scoring function used for sequence alignment, especially in bioinformatics
 * Affine geometry, a geometry characterized by parallel lines
 * Affine group, the group of all invertible affine transformations from any affine space over a field K into itself
 * Affine logic, a substructural logic whose proof theory rejects the structural rule of contraction
 * Affine representation, a continuous group homomorphism whose values are automorphisms of an affine space
 * Affine scheme, the spectrum of prime ideals of a commutative ring
 * Affine morphism, a morphism of schemes such that the pre-image of an open affine subscheme is affine

 * Affine space, an abstract structure that generalises the affine-geometric properties of Euclidean space
 * Affine tensor, a tensor belonging to an affine coordinate system
 * Affine transformation, a transformation that preserves the relation of parallelism between lines

title: Affine


text:
Live ?!*@ Like a Suicide

Live ?!★꩜ Like a Suicide is an EP by American hard rock band Guns N' Roses, released on December 16, 1986, on the UZI Suicide record label. When referred to by band members, they have simply called the EP Live Like a Suicide. The record itself was reportedly limited to only 10,000 copies, released only in vinyl and cassette formats.

The tracks were later re-released along with four new songs as the album G N' R Lies (1988).

In 2018, they were included as bonus tracks on the reissue of Appetite for Destruction and featured seamless crowd noise between the songs along with a fifth song, "Shadow of Your Love".

Background
The four songs on the EP were selected from the band's demo tapes: two are cover versions and two are originals. The EP was a faux-live recording with overdubbed crowd noise, but these are in fact studio performances.

According to Steven Adler's autobiography, My Appetite for Destruction: Sex & Drugs & Guns N' Roses, the entire EP was recorded at Pasha Studios in Hollywood with pre-recorded audience applause and cheering in the background, as Geffen's engineers told him "it would cost too much to actually record a live record". Duff McKagan says in his autobiography, It's So Easy (and other Lies), that "the crowd noise...is from a 1970's rock festival called the Texxas Jam. We thought it would be funny to put a huge stadium crowd in the background at a time when we were lucky to be playing to a few hundred."

"Reckless Life" is the opening track on the EP. It opens with Slash shouting "Hey fuckers! Suck on Guns N' fuckin' Roses!" This song was originally written by Hollywood Rose, which had included all the members of Guns N' Roses except Duff McKagan at one point or another. It was included in the Hollywood Rose compilation album The Roots of Guns N' Roses. "Nice Boys" is a cover of a song by Rose Tattoo. "Move to the City" features a horn section and is also from the Hollywood Rose era. The fourth track on the EP is "Mama Kin" wich is a cover of a song by Aerosmith, a band Guns N' Roses has cited as one of their major influences.

One song considered for this EP was "Shadow of Your Love", which never made it onto the album, and later released on the "It’s So Easy/Mr. Brownstone" single and the Live from the Jungle EP.

Artwork
The front cover consists of a photograph of two of the band members, Duff McKagan and Axl Rose (from left to right), with an early Guns N' Roses logo, designed by Slash, overhead.

Promotion
To celebrate the release of the EP Guns N' Roses had a release party at Riki Rachtman's World Famous Cathouse. That was the first live performance at the club. It was acoustic and this was before MTV had the unplugged series, so an acoustic set from a heavy metal act was rather obscure in 1986. In 2010, Steven Adler claimed that Guns N' Roses got Rodney on the ROQ at KROQ-FM to initially play "Reckless Life" by giving Rodney one gram of cocaine.

Personnel
Adapted from AllMusic.

 * W. Axl Rose – lead vocals, production
 * Slash – lead and rhythm guitars, slide guitar, backing vocals, production
 * Izzy Stradlin – rhythm and lead guitars, backing vocals, production
 * Duff "Rose" McKagan – bass, backing vocals, production
 * Steven Adler – drums, percussion, production

title: Live ?!*@ Like a Suicide