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User talk:Diderot/archive20040910

Hey there! Welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like this place--I sure do--and want to stay. If you need help on how to title new articles check out Naming conventions, and for help on formatting the pages visit the manual of style. If you need help look at Help and The FAQ, plus if you can't find your answer there, check The Village pump or The Reference Desk! Happy wiki-ing! Alexandros

Thanks for the work you did on Vanir/Aesir theory. Some context: all the text you edited was originally scattered through a number of different articles, from which it was extracted and collated into one page, to minimize the confusion. We'll see what Kenneth Alan has to say about your changes, but I'm glad I'm not the only one anymore who is trying to keep this in balance. Martijn faassen 21:12, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your message of appreciation. As a bit of practical advice when communicating with another Wikipedian the message should be on his "User talk" page rather than his user page. That way the person is notiffied that he has a message. If you put a message on my user page there is a risk that I may not see it for months.

 * My apologies for placing it on the wrong page. I'll stick to user talk pages from now on. Martijn faassen 08:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Martijn, I think he meant the message I left him. Diderot 08:28, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, I haven't been reading well, and perhaps I haven't messed with talk pages after all. :) Sorry. Martijn faassen 08:46, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Diderot's right, but I apologize for not having put in the horizontal line. With the indent that I gave, my message does look as though I'm responding to Martijn's comments. Eclecticology 19:17, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC)

Our colleague User:TDC is quite stubborn in his anti-Castro bias. I have reverted his efforts several times, but they keep re-appearing. Feel free to revert his work there when the opportunity arises. If several people did this just one a day each, it might wear him down. The article Allegations of human rights abuses in Castro's Cuba was simply Human Rights Abuses in Castro's Cuba until I moved it. By having the word "alleged" in the title, readers are forwarned that the contents are highly debatable. Still one needs to accept the fact that right or wrong such allegations continue to be made. Eclecticology 08:18, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC)

 * I moved most of the material to the Fascism article since it's really more germane to fascism than to socialism or communism. If necessary we can put a specific link to the sections in fascism under Stalinism and totalitarianism. AndyL 18:03, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Translation in progress: User:Diderot/French_Third_Republic

Considering your apparent interest in postmodern academics in Fashionable Nonsense, I wanted to invite you to join WikiProject Critical Theory. Snowspinner 15:25, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, we'd be happy to have some focus on philosophy of science and on Latour. Critical theory is such an umbrella term that a variety of perspectives would be helpful. And I'm so totally hateful of Latour that someone who can actually talk about him with sympathy would be really nice. :) Snowspinner 21:44, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Fascism
Could you please weigh in at Talk:Fascism? WHEELER seems to think I'm the only one against his suggestions. AndyL 07:26, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Greetings!
Love the fact that you've done professional translation. I've worked on professional translation software, so I guess that makes us, what, third cousins? Please see Multilingualism [oops! --ed.] and correct my estimates of your fluency on Translators. +sj+ 04:39, 2004 May 16 (UTC)

Actually, I work on profession translation software too, computer aided translation and machine translation in particular. We're probably competitors.

My professional translation experience is largely of the past tense variety - I get paid to write LISP code nowadays. I see nothing at Multilinguism. "Canadjan" and "Joual" are Canadian jokes, from an old book called "Canadjan, eh?" which pointed out that while Canada's official languages are English and French, 98% of the Canadian population speaks either Canadjan or Joual, and French and English are rarely heard outside of official discourse. I'm of two minds whether to keep the joke on the Translators page, but it's okay for the moment. Diderot 11:54, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
 * well, not competitors any more! I meant Multilingualism, excuse me.    Joke noted... +sj +  07:16, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

(TGG debate continued from )

Hi Diderot, hope you don't mind me giving a response here...

Move-alpha does not in itself place any restrictions on movement, but this is because those restrictions have been factored out of the movement operation itself and distributed to other modules of the grammar. This goes towards the goal of eliminating construction-specific transformations, which is entirely sensible. In practice, move-alpha cannot move anything anywhere; here are some of the major conditions on its application: So your statement that there are no restrictions on Move-alpha is true only in the technical sense that these restrictions are not built into the rule itself (Although in derivational theories, locality conditions are built into the definition of move-alpha, since they are no longer conditions on where traces may occur in a representation, but conditions on movement itself.)
 * Structure preservation — heads can only move to head positions; XPs can only move to specifier positions, etc.
 * Economy of derivation — movement must occur in order to check uninterpretable features. The existance of such features is independently motivated by redundant agreement morphology.
 * Locality conditions on movement. In current minimalist theory, this would involve some kind of cyclicity condition (perhaps derivided from the need to check "strong" features quickly) and something resembling Relativized Minimality (i.e. that movement cannot "skip" a suitable position).

I must admit I'm not very well read in the literature on Chomskyan analyses of free word order languages; suffice it so say, there is such a literature. True, TGG has to resort to a lot of movement operations to derive the various word orders, but there is independent evidence for these movements (e.g. quantifer scope, positioning of adverbials). In any case, stipulating movements is not much worse than stipulating different underlying word orders, even if independent evidence is lacking. I don't doubt that the current theory of word order variation is wrong, just as every other significant linguistic theory probabaly is. However, if one accepts Chomsky's epistemological argument for a universal grammar, one must expect a certain amount of complexity in descriptive accounts, given that these must be based on a small set of universal principles, rather than whatever rules or principles make it easiest to describe one particular language.

The accusation that Chomskyan theories only make sense for English is a common one, but I don't see a great deal of evidence for it — TGG research certainly covers a wide range of languages these days. The Principles and Parameters approach imposes a pretty harsh discipline on descriptive theories, so it's only to be expected that descriptive adequacy will suffer somewhat in the persuit of explanatory adequacy.

I'm not sure to what degree the popularity of TGG dropped off in the 70s-90s. It certainly has less of a monopoly these days, but that might just as well be due to the field expanding and new approaches being developed alongside it. I don't think there's been any mass-defection (as it were) of Chomskyan linguists to other theories (although of course there are some academics who will go from one fashionable theory to the next without a second thought ;)

HPSG doesn't radically reject TGG at all — it's pretty similar really. Pollard and Sag's book on it certainly gives TGG analyses quite a high regard, although of course in many cases they suggest alternatives. Still, the structure of the clause, for example, is not radically different in HPSG. HPSG perhaps even has different levels of representation (you could see the SYNSEM/PHON distinction as corresponding roughly to the LF/PF distinction). Personally, I see HPSG as a very Chomskyan theory, at least in terms of its general philosophy. The difference is mostly that it has a precise formalism, and that it does not use movement (although it does have gaps in the syntax of some kind, if I remember correctly).

Finally, I'd like to agree with you that we must get some better coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia. I'm at least a biased as you are, unfortunately (I'm doing a degree in linguistics in a very pro-Chomsky department), but at least we should have a pretty good range of knowledge. Cadr

Cadr - I'm sorry, I have exams all week and can't really get into this now. You can respond to this, and I'll try to take it up at the end of the week after my Russian exam.

First - the Chomskyan analyses of languages with freer word order than English are not widely read because they're often not highly regarded. It is difficult to assert that some of these languages have a natural, default word order in all cases - at which point the notion that an internal ordering has to be transformed in order to get surface structures becomes hard to take. Slavic linguistics in particular has been vocal in rejecting the Chomskyan approach. Their approach rejects the notion of movement, seeing deep structure as explicitly non-linear and surface structures as the result of a mapping from deep structures rather than a transformation of them.

As for HPSG - did we read the same book? HPSG is built atop GPSG, which was explicitly non-transformational. Pollard and Sag genuflect towards Chomsky in discussing the role of formal grammar and the generative paradigm in their formalism, but then turn around and set out very explicitly non-transformational mechanisms for everything that was perviously held to require a transformation. HPSG has been particularly well received in the German- and Dutch-speaking world because the TG theories about German all assumed either SVO or SOV word order to be the natural, underlying, deep structure of German. By eliminating this highly unnatural belief about the German language, GPSG and HPSG were able to gain far greater acceptance in Germany. There was a period in the 80s when German linguistics students in Chomskyan departments wrote their theses on problems in English rather than German, because the TG tools they had were so ill-disposed to German.

You might also read Sag's interview with Ta!.

 * It is for reasons like that that I got involved in GPSG - the possibility of solving problems like the interaction between coordination and extraction - actually predicting complex facts that are difficult or impossible to state precisely within transformational theories. So you see my attraction to nontransformational approaches to syntax was based on purely linguistic grounds that have nothing to do with weak generative capacity, worst-case recognition results or any other mathematical property. It may seem paradoxical, but it is on these purely Chomskyan grounds that I don't do GB, and why I got involved with theories like GPSG, and now HPSG.

As for moving the constraints out of the grammar - that is the whole point of lexicalist arguments against TG. Once you have unloaded all the productive features out of your grammar, you're just using a very bizarre framework to lexical dependency syntax, which eliminates any value in universal grammar at all. At best, you end up doing constraint-based grammar like Sag and Pollard where you end up adding at most constraints to a system where all the real rules are bound up in the lexicon.

Thanks for the response. I'm also a little tied up with work at the moment, so I may as well respond next week or so. I don't expect either of us is going to change the other's mind to any great degree, but it's still been an interesting discussion for me so far. Good luck with the exam. Cadr

May 25 it is then. L'anniversaire de ma petite belle nièce. Thank you for the additional info in "Eskimo." I was working on the basis of Freeman's etymology - as a native Inuk speaker and a capable writer, I accepted that she knew what she was talking about. Further references by her to the term "Eskimo" in the Canadian Encyclopedia refer only to the "eater of raw meat" derivation, but I was not sure whether that was because she wanted to avoid offending Cree readers or whether some kind of political pressure had been placed on her by the Encyclopedia. (It also occurred to me that she may have well just discovered she was wrong.) I'm curious, though, as Freeman says, Inuit are not at all ashamed of eating raw meat, and though it may not be any longer true among the youth (who have discovered potato chips and Coke), it is still considered quite tasty, so why would the Inuit see it as offensive, except as a label put on them by outsiders? (And, though it is definitely not on my list of favorites, I have a friend who feels meat is overcooked if sunshine is allowed to fall on it.)

Anyway, I will leave tha article as it stands, If you wish to remove references to what you describe as questional etymology, please by all means do so. I will take no offense.

Salut.

Denni 23:57, 2004 May 20 (UTC)

Denni - this etymology really is very widespread. Both Cree and Inuit alike often believe it, but there just isn't any historical support for it. I heard it as a kid in Iqaluit, probably the same way Freeman did, by living there when the government started suppressing the word "Eskimo." It seems that it's only the Plains Ojibwa that actually call them a name that might be translated as having someting to do with raw meat, and it seems likely that it's just a coincidence. Very capable and intelligent people believe very silly things about languages and etymologies - the whole "niggardly" fiasco is an excellent example. I've even heard a few Inuit tell you all about the three zillion words they have for snow, when they - debateably - have two words that could be correctly translated as "snow" in English. Diderot 19:28, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

 * LOL! I think there are more words for specific types of snow in English than there are in Inuktitut. I've always found that breathless "did you know that..." statement amusing myself. BTW - would you be willing to add some of hat you said above to the article? I think it's germane, interesting, and certainly not well-known.Denni 19:37, 2004 May 21 (UTC)

 * Sure - but I need to get back to using Wikipedia as a study aide by adding Chinese words to Wiktionary for the moment. I've been thinking about expanding quite a few entries in linguistics and in the languages I've studied.  But, there's always work in real life to do...  Diderot 19:48, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Maori
Bonjour! WHEN YOUR EXAMS ARE OVER, M. Diderot, you may be interested in hearing that I'm impressed with your idea of tossing a whole Chinese dictionary into Wiktionary. (Would you believe I tried a Random page just for fun and got one that was linked only from one of your pages, which was also linked only from one of your pages?! - so I discovered your current project.) On the same theme, I guess I can increase the Maori language content of Wiktionary by copying from an 1894 grammar book I have OR by persuading some serious Maori students to use Wiktionary for practice! Any tips will be welcome. Kind regards Robin Patterson 05:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Robin - Actually, I have some grandiose ideas that I haven't got to time to try to raise. I'm afraid I've decided to forgo a vacation for another five weeks in order to take another class that I really need (I need to learn Dutch ASAP) and to work on my research project, for which I have a grant and will need to finish by October. I wasn't trying to put a whole Chinese dictionary into Wiktionary - just the first volume of a Chinese second language curriculum. I think that that kind of resource would be very helpful in Wiktionary because Wikimedia has become such an important educational resource. I'm sort of a professional lexicographer, so I am very interested and I have some ideas, but I don't know much about Polynesian languages, so I can't help very much directly.

Really, I think Wiktionary could use a major rethink. If I had the time, I might start raising an appropriate fuss for it. I might anyway. But, let me bounce what I have in mind off of you (and, of course, everyone else who has put my Talk page on their watchlist).

I think Wiktionary as it exists is too unstructured to be useful. I think it has been started without any clear conception of how people are going to use it, and I think that's a mistake. This is a real problem with dictionary design in the print world too - one that is only now changing. The most popular dictionaries in the US, for example, are these big, thick "collegiate dictionaries" like the Merriam-Webster and the Random House Collegiate dictionary. People get them as graduation presents when they start university.

They are also useless as dictionaries, suited best as doorstops. They are nowadays updated haphazardly by contract staff and they advertise the sheer quantity of headwords they define without actually containing the word you're looking for.

What I think ought to happen is that the English Wiktionary should be thought of as several separate but somewhat overlapping projects:

 * 1) A real monolingual English dictionary, based on and extending the GCIDE.  The entry form should restrict editors so that they input data in a structured way, and words should be accompanied by useful examples.  There should also be conjugation tables and other structured linguistic information.  Definitions should be single sentences.  Entries should fit a very restricted structure based on modern lexicographic practice.
 * 2) A number of bilingual dictionaries, structured in the same way as the English dictionary, but with foreign headwords and English definitions.  The kinds of structures each language needs will vary somewhat.  For example: English nouns don't need a field for gender, French ones do.  Once again, good lexicographic practices should be implemented here.
 * 3) A collection of domain-specific multilingual glossaries.  Examples may not be necessary; grammatical and lexical category information is probably unnecessary in most cases.  Definitions may be longer, but they should not be encyclopedia entries.  This should follow modern terminological practice, based on the new TBX standard, for example.  We will need an ontology of domains and a way for users to edit domains.
 * 4) Wikabulary (a working title) - a database of specialised terms and usages found in Wikipedia and other Wiki resources and acting as a support document for Wikipedia.  This means covering words and usages found not only in Wikipedia but also in Wikibooks.  We might, for example, have glossaries for Shakespeare's plays, which are hard for native English speakers to read because the language is dated.  This also might mean devising a linking mechanism for novel, difficult, or special words instead of just interwiki links.
 * 5) An encyclopedic dictionary.  This is a common resource in French, but fairly rare in English.  It lies somewhere between a dictionary and an encyclopedia.  The idea is that it contains only the very briefest and most essential information about the entities it describes.  For people, date and place of birth and death, nationality, what they're famous for.  For places, general location, size, what - if anything - has happened there of any importance.  It means different kinds of information for different things, but the idea is brevity - just enough information to prevent cluelessness, but not enough to be engrossing.  It should aspire to the same level of comprehensiveness as Wikipedia, but with brevity and minimalism as its stylistic requirements.

Now, for a language like Maori, you should think about who is going to be using a Maori Wikipedia and Wiktionary. Most if not all native Maori speakers are bilingual. Few people outside NZ learn Maori. You have little chance of publishing a comprehensive, 200,000-article Wikipedia in Maori.

Instead, I would think about the following user communities:

 * 1) Maori-speakers looking for the right way to say or write  something in Maori that they already know how to say in English.
 * 2) Students learning Maori as a second language.
 * 3) Maori-bilingual scholars of Polynesian and NZ culture and life.

The Latin Wikipedia is looking at a similar kind of problem. It's not quite the same, since Latin is dead, but it is similar. No one knows Latin as their sole language, and the Latin community will never build an encyclopedia able to compete with English, French, German, etc. So, they are discussing building the Latin Wikipedia as a document about the Latin world: the Catholic Church, Medieval Europe, the Roman Empire. Very little space is to be devoted to modern topics. The Latin Wikipedia is to be about the Latin world seen through Latin eyes.

You might consider the same sort of path, although not quite the same. Think of the Maori Wiktionary as resource for the student of Maori. First, the student of Maori as a second language will want to see the words from his textbooks in the Wiktionary - both Maori words defined in English in the English dictionary, and defined in Maori in the Maori dictionary. Second, they will want to find the words for the things they want to say - everyday things like computers and hamburgers.

Then, native Maori speakers will end up using Wiktionary and Wikipedia to figure out how to say things in Maori that they know how to say in English. This means things like government ministries and offices, placenames, things from local affairs, maybe a few big international things like country names. By concentrating on New Zealandish things - and things from the rest of the world from a NZ standpoint - you provide coverage both for foreign scholars and Maori speakers looking for language help. It is particularly useful both to Maori and to outsiders if both Pakeha and Maori cultures are described in Maori. This tells them that theirs is a living language, a language suited for discussing the modern world, the real world, the things they really deal with in real life; while at the same time it keeps them connected to the past and to a sense of continuity.

Make sure that every entry in the Maori Wikipedia is linked correctly to the English version. You are trying to say, whenever a Maori uses Wikipedia, you could say this in Maori just as well as in English.

In short, rather than seeking a decultured kind of neutrality, bend the NPOV policy slightly and make Maori language resources Maori-centric. English is a big international language with hundreds of millions of speakers. Avoiding Anglocentrism has proven impossible in the English Wikipedia, but the effort is worthwhile if nothing else because it educates Anglos. The same could be said for French, German, Japanese, and other national and international languages with large monolingual communities. But, Maori and other less widely spoken languages are different. They have few monolinguals, and it would be better for Wikis in those languages to serve their user community in a more personal and more explicit sort of way.

I think this sort of approach is the right way for the smaller languages on Wikipedia to operate. French, German, and Japanese can compete with English for topical coverage. Maori can't. Instead of settling for less, it should aim for better targetted. Where it is impossible to compete in quantity, the smaller languages can compete in quality.

Anyway, that's my opinion anyway. I'm afraid I'm only fluent in a handful of languages, all of which have more than 10 million speakers.

Diderot 14:05, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Please see my recent comment at Talk:Socialism, addressing your recent edit. -- Jmabel 19:13, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

Howdy. I initiated the page cholo. In New Mexico, where I grew up, the term was not considered offensive, in as far as it was never said to anyone in a pejorative manner. It was merely descriptive of a style, and if anything, it was a rather value neutral term. Townbully 17:01, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC) (BTW: I accidentally put this in your used page at first.  My mistake -- sorry)

Kenneth Alan
Kenneth Alan's case is now in arbitration. See Requests for arbitration/Kenneth Alan. You may wish to add comment to Requests for arbitration/Kenneth Alan/Evidence Mintguy (T) 14:26, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I have reverted your vote to accept the Kenneth Alan case. Only an arbitrator can vote there. →Raul654 13:30, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - I saw the previous note during a busy workday and clearly didn't pay enough attention. Diderot 15:36, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

new translations
Hi Diderot, how has the summer gone?

You might be interested in some new translations on meta; a major press release and a new wikimedia newsletter. See Translation requests for details. Cheers, +sj +  20:48, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * How has the summer gone? Too quickly and lost in a hellish run of allergies.  God, how did I move to a country where I'm allergic to everthing during the two months of the year when it doesn't rain every day?  I swear, I'm going to buy a Bulgarian dacha and telecommute next summer. (Yeah, and Chinese rocket monkeys are going to fly out of my butt.)

 * But, my research project is now finished and I can finally actually breathe without medication. Anyway, I'm back.  I need to clean up the mess around here and then get back to work.  I'm going to archive this page in a couple of days and set up a structure for some real projects.  I got a load of French translation I wanna do, and I want to start looking at the Dutch Wikipedia to see what I can manage to pull from it.

 * I'll be back in school in October, I think - no Chinese this year, but lots of Russian and Dutch I suspect. So, I'm going to try to keep up my Chinese by writing Wikipedia entries for Chinese vocab.

 * I'm also thinking of downloading Wikipedia and using it as a corpus for writing definitions for Wiktionary. It gives me a chance to apply my research results in a novel context.  I may even get a paper out of it.

 * I'll see what I can do for you for translations. It doesn't look like there's too much translating into English to do for the newsletter.  It's not clear to me when there are non-English originals.

 * There is some tension at the office about a new project, but it's one that I can't do much about. Still, it tends to undermine my slacking off time.  It's better not to be spending tons of time on unpaid projects when there's deadlines.  Once that comes to a close - roughly as soon as the weather starts to suck and school begins - I ought to be able to manage something.

 * Diderot 10:53, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fashionable Nonsense
In response to your latest comment on Talk:Fashionable Nonsense...
 * As for seeing the foolishness in S&B's examples, I have ask if you have read any of those authors in a context outside of Fashionable Nonsense?

No. And I really would rather not discuss this anymore, since I've already done so way beyond my real level of interest. BTW, you forgot to sign your comment. - dcljr 04:16, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Diderot/archive20040910


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Talk:Leech lattice

Dimension of lattice
It says:

 * "It is the unique lattice with the following list of properties:"

I'm wondering if the above should have said "It is the unique lattice in R24 with the following list of properties:" ? Michael Hardy 22:49, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If you include the first property (generation by the columns of a 24 × 24 matrix), then it is indeed unique, and mentioning R24 is redundant. Perhaps I am missing the point? Michael Larsen 02:46, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contradiction of Kissing number problem
I've put a note on Talk:Kissing number problem about a contradiction between these two pages. I hope someone knowledgable can fix whichever is wrong. -- Rory ☺ 23:01, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

set of coordinates .. word in the binary Golay code?
The following is not completely clear, at least not to me:
 * "The Leech lattice can be explicitly constructed [...] the set of coordinates i such that ai belongs to any fixed residue class (mod 4) is a word in the binary Golay code."

How is a set of coordinates a word in a code? I think it means that the 24-bit words formed by setting bit at index i=1 if and only if the corresponding integers a_i belong to a certain residue class (0,1,2,3) should all be words in the binary Golay code, but please correct me if I'm wrong!

I can not understand either of these descriptions of the connection to the Golay code. NormHardy (talk) 01:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Strange edit
I found the signed comment below on the article itself; it looks like it was intended for talk, so I'm moving it here. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Ernst Witt is mentioned. The discoverer of the automorphism group of this lattice (Conway) visited Witt after this discovery. Conway's views should be recorded.  This might be best included under this article.

 * John McKay66.130.86.141 (talk) 01:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Golay code.
In fact, in Pierre de la Harpe's notes following Boris Venkov's course on the lattices, I've met a much simpler construction. One can simply take the "reduction mod 2" map from $$\Z^n$$ to $$F_2^n=(\Z/2\Z)^n$$ (that is a lattice, as the Golay code is linear), and contract it $$\sqrt{2}$$ times. Then — in the Golay code the minimum number of units is 8, so, the preimage norm is at least 8, division by 2 gives 4. So, we have a pair (as code was doubly pair), unimodular (as the code was of dimension of half of that of the space) lattice without roots (as there are no norm 2 vectors). But I'm not sure if these notes are published (and thus that we can use it as a source); have someone met this construction otherwhere? --Burivykh (talk) 08:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Dynkin diagram
Does the Leech lattice have (some generalization of) a Dynkin diagram? --JWB (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, AFAIK, it's exactly the opposite situation: this is the first roots-free integer autodual lattice. So, no roots-no Dynkin diagram. --Burivykh (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Added a statement to the article - please feel free to correct. --JWB (talk) 05:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it's OK now.
 * On the other hand, I've removed the next phrase, as I couldn't understand it in any way so the statement would be believable... --Burivykh (talk) 00:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

In response to the recent edits
The criterion is that the squared length, or norm, is greater than 2. Since the Leech lattice is a Type II (even unimodular) lattice, the squared distance between every pair of points is an even integer. The lowest such number greater than two is four, which equates to the condition that the unsquared length is greater than or equal to 2. The 196560 minimal vectors all have norm 4, or length 2.

The Leech lattice can be characterised as the unique even unimodular lattice in 24 or fewer dimensions with no vectors of norm 2.

Calcyman (talk) 10:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Who discovered the Leech Lattice?
This article http://www.neverendingbooks.org/index.php/who-discovered-the-leech-lattice.html by Lieven le Bruyn( who seems to have access to the appropriate material) and has a translation of the German text seems to disagree with the conclusion here in the Wikipedia article

"The Leech lattice was originally discovered by Ernst Witt in 1940, but he did not publish his discovery; see his collected works (Witt 1998, p. 328) for details."

Le Bruyn states, with discussion of the topic, "However, there is very little evidence to support this claim." Should we delete this claim or not? Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamzik (talk • contribs) 21:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

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User talk:Francesca~enwiki

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title: User talk:Francesca~enwiki


text:
Muhal Richard Abrams

Muhal Richard Abrams (born Richard Lewis Abrams; September 19, 1930 – October 29, 2017) was an American educator, administrator, composer, arranger, clarinetist, cellist, and jazz pianist in the free jazz medium. He recorded and toured the United States, Canada and Europe with his orchestra, sextet, quartet, duo, and as a solo pianist.

Early life
Abrams's mother, Edna, was born in Memphis. His father, Milton, was born in Alabama and moved with his parents to Chicago. Richard Lewis Abrams was born there, the second of nine children, on September 19, 1930. His father became a self-employed handyman; his mother was a housewife.

"Abrams's paternal grandfather was 'what you call a junk man', selling the fruits of neighborhood foraging. Abrams and his brother would pull the cart around the neighborhood, eventually arriving at a junk-yard on State Street, where the items would be sold." Abrams first attended Forrestville public school in Chicago. He grew up in a gang area; truancy and fighting meant that he was sent to Moseley School, a reformatory school for boys. There, in addition to strict discipline, he was taught about black histories. He later moved on to DuSable High School.

Although he was aware of the strong music program there, led by Walter Dyett, Abrams preferred playing sports, so did not participate in Dyett's classes. Among the future musicians Abrams met at the school were Charles Davis, Richard Davis, John Gilmore, Johnny Griffin, Laurdine Patrick, and Julian Priester.

As a child, Abrams was interested in the arts – film, painting, sculpture, and music. He later recounted that, in 1946, he decided to concentrate on the last of these, so left school and started piano lessons with a classically trained church pianist. He went on to study at the Metropolitan School of Music, which merged with Roosevelt University. "Supporting his studies in counterpoint, keyboard harmony, theory, and composition with a day job at a downtown printing company, Abrams eventually bought a second-hand piano." He also dropped out of his music school, reporting of his studies: "I didn't get too much out of that, because it wasn't what I was hearing in the street". He then decided to study independently: "I've always had a natural ability to study and analyze things. I used that ability, not even knowing what it was (it was just a feeling) and started to read books." In Abrams' words: "From there, I acquired a small spinet piano and started to teach myself how to play the instrument and read the notes – or, first of all, what key the music was in. It took time and a lot of sweat. But I analyzed it and before long I was playing with the musicians on the scene. I listened to Art Tatum, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Bud Powell and many others and concentrated on Duke Ellington and Fletcher Henderson for composition. Later I got scores and studied more extensive things that take place in classical composition and started to practice classical pieces on the piano."

1950s and 1960s
Abrams started out "playing all kinds of gigs - blues, jazz, stage shows, rhythm and blues, and church socials." His musical abilities earned him jobs working with "everyone from Dexter Gordon and Max Roach to Ruth Brown and Woody Shaw."

In the mid-1950s, Abrams was becoming better known as both a pianist and a composer. A strong influence on his direction as a pianist at that time was King Fleming, for whom Abrams also composed and arranged. Another local man, William E. Jackson, helped Abrams develop his arranging and orchestration skills. Abrams co-founded a quintet named the MJT+3, and recorded with them in 1957, resulting in Daddy-O Presents MJT+3, which contained several of his compositions. Abrams also became more involved in investigating the "occult arts" around 1959 or 1960, and joined the Rosicrucians.

Abrams's son, Richard Jr., was at high school in the early 1960s.

Still eager for self-development, Abrams was introduced to, and then acquired, books on musical composition written by Joseph Schillinger. In the books, Abrams found topics that resonated, including the incorporation of spirituality into music. At a more practical level, the pianist reported that "The Schillinger stuff taught me to break things back down into raw material – where it came from – and then, on to the whole idea of a personal or individual approach to composition."

Abrams was able to apply his learning after organising young musicians in the area into an ensemble that rehearsed at the C&C Lounge in Chicago from 1961. This became known as the Experimental Band, and "became a forum for Abrams to test his new, Schillinger-influenced compositional palette."

Around 1963, Abrams was part of a trio with bassist Donald Rafael Garrett and drummer Steve McCall. The pianist lived with his wife, Peggy, in a small basement apartment on South Evans Avenue. It was the location for nightly gatherings of musicians from the area, who "would explore musical, cultural, political, social, and spiritual ideas." Abrams found that he was in, and wanted to be in, the position that Fleming and Jackson had been with him – helping younger and less experienced musicians to develop. The Experimental Band, led by Abrams, encouraged cooperation, knowledge exchange, and the playing of its members' compositions. In interviews in later years, Abrams tended to downplay his influence on other, younger musicians. They, however, remembered things differently: "Everybody was following him around like little puppies", said saxophonist Gene Dinwiddie, while Roscoe Mitchell summarized that "He would always be turning people on to books, and talking about scores. Maybe he just doesn't realize the effect that he had on people's lives."

The Experimental Band had very few, if any, public performances. Although some rehearsal tapes were made, these were for study purposes and were routinely recorded over.

In 1965, four men – Abrams, pianist Jodie Christian, composer Phil Cohran, and drummer Steve McCall – agreed to form a new organization of musicians. They invited mostly other African Americans to the first meeting, on May 8, at which they discussed the principles of the nascent organization, the primary one being that it would be for original, creative music. At the second meeting, Abrams was elected president. Later in the month, an official name was chosen – the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians (AACM). When the AACM started a school in 1967, Abrams led the classes in composition.

Further exposure with the AACM helped Abrams get a recording contract with Delmark Records. His first album for them, Levels and Degrees of Light, was recorded in 1967, and featured the recording debuts of saxophonist Anthony Braxton, violinist Leroy Jenkins, and bassist Leonard Jones.

Rather than playing in smoky night clubs, AACM members often rented out theaters and lofts where they could perform for attentive and open-minded audiences.

"Abrams took the name Muhal in 1967. Interviewed by the French magazine Jazz in 1973, he said that the word, its origin unclear, means 'number one'."

Abrams also played with saxophonists Eddie Harris, Gordon, and other more bop-oriented musicians during this era.

1970s and 1980s, Loft jazz era
In the 1970s, Abrams composed for symphony orchestras, string quartets, solo piano, voice, and big bands in addition to making a series of larger ensemble recordings that included harp and accordion. In the early 1970s, his big band had a weekly concert at the Transitions East performance space in Chicago. Abrams formed a sextet from other AACM members in 1972. The other musicians were Reggie Willis on bass, Steve McCall on drums, and Kalaparusha Difda, Wallace McMillan, and Henry Threadgill on various woodwind and saxophone instruments. With this band, Abrams had his first international concerts, playing the Berlin Jazz Festival in 1973. He had a successful solo concert at the Montreaux Jazz Festival the following year, as well as touring Europe with the Art Ensemble of Chicago.

During this time, Abrams recorded extensively under his own name (frequently on the Black Saint label), and as a sideman for musicians such as Marion Brown (Sweet Earth Flying, 1974), Anthony Braxton (Duets 1976, 1976), Roscoe Mitchell (Roscoe Mitchell Quartet, 1976), and Chico Freeman (Morning Prayer, 1976, and Chico, 1977). He served as composer and wrote the theme for the 1970 drama series Bird of the Iron Feather, the first all-Black television soap opera started by Richard Durham.

Abrams left Chicago for New York in 1976. After initially living with other musicians, he moved his family there the following year. The move of city was partly to be at the centre of musical activity, and partly for financial reasons. Initially, there were very few concerts, but he garnered press attention and was able to record annually with Black Saint. Experience in writing extended compositions also helped Abrams and other AACM musicians in New York: "The compositions themselves showed that they were outside of the mainstream of jazz, and notice was taken by classical people. You can get access to these [classical music] ensembles, and it started to happen."

In the late 1970s, Abrams was also part of the jazz peer-review panels for the National Endowment for the Arts. "As a Chicagoan who was identified with experimental music, yet who was respected by the ancien regime, Abrams was uniquely positioned to take a leading role in guiding the broad changes in both the demographics and the aesthetic directions of the panels that gradually took place."

His 1-OQA+19 "juxtaposed complex written passages with propulsive rhythms"; and Lifea Blinec "presented multi-instrumentalism, text-sound, and electronic textures."

He was involved in the local Loft Jazz scene in New York. In 1982, he presented an orchestral work at that year's New Music America festival in Chicago. He also helped set up the New York Chapter of the AACM, which first presented concerts in the city in 1982.

1990–2017
In 1990 Abrams won the Jazzpar Prize, an annual Danish prize within jazz. Abrams received a 1997 Foundation for Contemporary Arts Grants to Artists Award. In 2005, the fortieth anniversary of the founding of the AACM, some of Abrams's solo and ensemble pieces were presented by the organization in New York. In May 2009 the National Endowment for the Arts announced that Abrams would be one of the recipients of the 2010 NEA Jazz Masters Award. In June 2010, Abrams was given the Lifetime Achievement Award by New York City's premier jazz festival, known as the Vision Festival. Abrams died at his home in Manhattan, at the age of 87. His daughter, Richarda, became an actress and singer.

Influence
He is a widely influential artist, having played sides for many musicians early in his career, releasing important recordings as a leader, and writing classical works such as his "String Quartet No. 2", which was performed by the Kronos Quartet, on November 22, 1985, at the Carnegie Recital Hall in New York.

As sideman
With Art Ensemble of Chicago
 * Fanfare for the Warriors (Atlantic, 1974)
 * Kabalaba (AECO, 1978)

With Barry Altschul
 * You Can't Name Your Own Tune (Muse, 1977)

With Hamiet Bluiett
 * Saying Something for All (1998)

With Anthony Braxton
 * Three Compositions of New Jazz (Delmark, 1968)
 * Creative Orchestra Music 1976 (Arista, 1976)
 * Duets 1976 (Arista, 1976)
 * Quintet (Basel) 1977 (hatOLOGY, 1977 [2000])
 * Live At The Rainbow Gallery '79 (Hi Hat, 2016)

With Marion Brown
 * Sweet Earth Flying (Impulse!, 1974)

With Creative Construction Company
 * Creative Construction Company (Muse, 1970 [1975])
 * Creative Construction Company Vol. II (Muse, 1970 [1976])

With Jack DeJohnette
 * Made in Chicago (ECM, 2013 [2015]) with Larry Gray, Roscoe Mitchell and Henry Threadgill

With Kenny Dorham
 * Kenny Dorham Sextet (1970)

With Marty Ehrlich
 * Emergency Peace (1990)

With Chico Freeman
 * Morning Prayer (1976)
 * Chico (1977)
 * Freeman & Freeman (1981)

With Barry Harris
 * Interpretations Of Monk Vol. 1 (Koch Jazz, 1997) with Don Cherry, Steve Lacy, Charlie Rouse, Roswell Rudd, Richard Davis, Ben Riley, Ed Blackwell

With Eddie Harris
 * Instant Death (Atlantic, 1971)
 * Eddie Harris Sings the Blues (Atlantic, 1972)
 * Excursions (Atlantic, 1973)
 * That Is Why You're Overweight (Atlantic, 1975)

With Joseph Jarman
 * As If It Were the Seasons (1968)

With Leroy Jenkins
 * Lifelong Ambitions (Black Saint, 1977)

With Clifford Jordan
 * Inward Fire (Muse, 1978)

With Robin Kenyatta
 * Beggars and Stealers (1977)

With George E. Lewis
 * Shadowgraph (1978, Black Saint)

With Roscoe Mitchell
 * Nonaah (1967)
 * Roscoe Mitchell Quartet (1975)
 * Duets and Solos (1990)
 * Live At "A Space" 1975 (Delmark, 2013 DiscogsAllMusic)

With Walter Perkins MJT+3
 * Daddy-O Presents MJT+3 (1957)

With Woody Shaw
 * The Iron Men with Anthony Braxton (Muse, 1977 [1980])

With Sonny Stitt
 * Soul Girl (Paula Records, 1973)

title: Muhal Richard Abrams


text:
Talk:Siouxsie Sioux

Discussion
They might have started out as a punk band, but they soon became goth IMHO - Steeev 22:55, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * This page needs to be cleaned up, the beginning sounds too much like the beginning of Siouxise and the Banshees: The Authorized Biography. Zombieliving 23:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Surname
Can someone sort out the whole Dallion/Ballion thing once and for all, with a properly cited source? Please? --Stormie 10:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * It's Ballion. She allowed 'Dallion' to be the misunderstanding because of shame about her home life and not wanting fans to come around and have tea with Mrs. Ballion (her mother)--the fans would come by the family home, and her mother would invite them in and share all kinds of stories embarrassing to an increasingly-popular local singer and club personality.  'Dallion' even appears in the credits of an early movie; whether it was an intentional or unintentional mis-print, Sioux used that to somewhat legitimise the belief that 'Dallion' was correct.  In the past, Siouxsie herself has claimed her name to be 'Dallion', allowing the misunderstanding to exist without correction. Her *authorised* biography (see Amazon link, Ballion/Dallion is mentioned in a comment) now clears up the issue:  she herself admits that her surname is actually 'Ballion'.
 * http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1860743757/104-9448522-5445527?v=glance&n=283155
 * http://www.vamp.org/Siouxsie/Text/guardian.html
 * http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Siouxsie_Sioux
 * http://www.untiedundone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=525&sid=55c6530a09b0db5059b6901cf976e8e4
 * http://siouxsie-sioux.biography.ms/
 * http://www.rocklibrary.com/Library/Entity.aspx?id=afe82f27-a632-4cd5-ac10-00b1b2019ada
 * http://www.chartwatch.co.uk/TopTen/writers/wri3703.htm

...so can we please fix her name?

Sid Vicious
Sid left the Banshees to join/form "The Flowers of Romance" - which is where he started using his famous nom de plume - with various people who later appeared in The Slits and The Raincoats (from memory). This band did not gig (as far as I am aware), so I have not edited the article as there is little point. I have edited the Pirroni bit as Adam and the Ants released records in the period between Marco leaving the Banshees and joining Mr Ant.

 * I also agree that the early period of the article duplicates much of Siouxsie & the Banshees article.LessHeard vanU 12:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually if you search google images (sid vicious on drums) there are quite a few pictures of them playing a gig at the 100 punk club
 * Sid Vicious played for the Banshees at the 100 club for one gig. I think it was because their drummer had gone off somewhere or something else stupid like that, but I'm certain it happened. It's in the various biographies about him that I have Ripswitched (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Nazi Controversy
It would be great if someone could add a discussion of the controversy she faced for wearing swastica-adorned clothing... her critics, her defenses, and what came of that issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomtext279 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed, and it's not enough to just say in the article that donning Nazi garb simply "was not a political statement", and it doesn't prove anything to point to anti-Nazi, pro-Israel songs she later wrote "to stop controversy". She may not have written them to stop controversy, and even if she did, it doesn't necessarily affect the original intent of the swastikas. Citations are absolutely needed for these claims. Please find an interview or something where this topic was brought up and official statements were made! —mjb (talk) 17:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

But having said that...
"the Bromley Contingent followed the Pistols to France, where Siouxsie was beaten up for wearing a black armband with a swastika on it." So it's okay if a woman gets beaten up for waering swastika's. Which is completely sexist! And hypocrtical. The "punks" who beat her up were obviously left-wing or Jewish or what have you. but this goes against everything the Left stands for! So why was Siouxsie attacked when many punks of the 70's wore swastikas as well, such as Johnny Thunders (R.I.P), Dee Dee Ramone (R.I.P), The Dead Boys, Sid Vicious (R.I.P.) Captain Sensible and many, many more... So what's the deal?!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.124.180 (talk) 04:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Image:Siouxsie-sioux-van-oakland-np.jpg
User:212.234.92.35 has removed this image as being "too awful". I disagree - it's not a great image but I think it is very far from being so awful that it's better to have nothing at all (as an aside, it is GFDL licensed). Rather than getting into a revert war, I seek the opinions of others. Is it worth having? --Stormie 03:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Awful is subjective- I don't see anything wrong with this image. Actually, I think she looks quite nice in it, fairly typical per the Banshees 1980s heyday, if only a bit tired after a show or something. It does a perfectly good job of illustrating what the singer looks like. It's possible the IP in question was a vandal anyway. So, to make a long story short, I'm placing the image back in. The Parsnip! 22:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

 * No, while I disagree with User:212.234.92.35 on this, he's definitely no vandal, he's a long-time anonymous contributor. But I agree with you on the image: it illustrates very clearly Siouxsie's distinctive look, with the big hair and thick eyeliner, and I think serves the article well. --Stormie 03:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

there's no problem with records sleeves 'cse every artist page has got a discography page with albums & singles reproducing the pictures of the sleeves. if you start this policy here, I'm afraid you'd have to erase all the discography pictures pages on the wikipedia site. User:212.234.92.35 18 july 2007

 * Actually there is a big problem with using album cover images to illustrate other articles, the many and varied uses of "fair use" (i.e. copyrighted and not freely usable) images is one of the major copyright issues that has been debated on Wikipedia this year. Have a read of Non-free content (and the many many screenfuls of argument on Wikipedia talk:Non-free content) - basically, using album cover images on list/discography pages is not considered an acceptable use of non-free content, and they are being cleaned up (slowly). Indeed there is a strong body of opinion that you should not even use album cover images on the article about the album, unless it contains content specifically discussing the artwork in question. --Stormie 04:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * that 86 picture was also made by someone and one hasn't got the copyright of the author. one needs a glamourous picture & that 86 picture is not. the goth awful porcelaine years look is 1983-1987. (note : the "tinderbox" LP is not the heyday of her career, it's considered by the critics to be the opposite). that 86 picture also shows her smiling & she never did it for promotion. so, that 86 picture doesn't represent her in a proper way.
 * important : universal tolerates the use of the record sleeves when it's made for promotion & so far, the record sleeves are paid by the artist. so a beautiful picture is better than a bad picture. User:212.234.92.35 20 july
 * No, one does not need a "glamorous" picture. That picture is not "bad", except in your own opinion. I happen to think she looks quite lovely in it. Using a non-free image to indicate what an artist looks like is not acceptable if that artist is living. Album art is fine and dandy on articles about the album in question, or next to a paragraph in the artist's article ABOUT the album in question, but it can't be placed in an Infobox. The Parsnip! 20:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * "that 86 picture was also made by someone and one hasn't got the copyright of the author" - hmm, actually, User:Andwhatsnext that uploaded the picture asserts that she took the photo herself and releases it under the GFDL. As for Universal tolerating the use of sleeve images, unfortunately, Wikipedia policies with regards to non-free content are rather stricter than the laws regarding such things (although as I said, the exact boundaries are currently under heavy debate). --Stormie 23:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I am absolutely shocked to find out someone would actually say that the photo in question is "awful". In my opinion it is a wonderful picture, it shows Siouxsie the way she is, in real life.  A kind-hearted woman who will stop for a minute or two for a fan to take a picture and even an autograph.  Many celebrities are/were surrounded by a bunch of bodyguards and people are often threatened so they don't take candid pictures.  But anyway to the point, the reason why I'm here is that I love that photo so much that I wish to know what to do in order to use it in my wiki at Wikia about Siouxsie.  Wikia is open most of the times to anything that is allowed in Wikipedia and they even have a few templates to show pictures accordingly.  Rules about including pictures off Wikipedia and even the web are also not a strict as in some Wikimedia projects, one of their options is to show pictures "found on Wikipedia or another Wikimedia project" so I'm almost sure I can use it.  --Molokaicreeper (talk) 00:03, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Why we can't use the album cover in the infobox
This is already policy, and nothing new being started here. You can see it in examples 16 and 17 here, WP:NONFREE. Wikipedia has a strong preference for free rather than copyrighted images, because under direction from the Foundation we are a part of, we try to make the articles as freely reusable as possible, not just here but on other websites. Copyrighted pictures cannot always be used on other sites, so whenever there is another picture that will do we use that one. As a band that is still active (sort of), anyone who wants to get a totally free picture can take a photo of them at a concert or a publicity event, and more than likely there are some out there already. Therefore, instead of using the record album cover photo we should look for a free image. Most artists do not have album covers as their main picture, and that is allowable only under specific circumstances. Artist discographies are usually lower in the page, and they can and are being erased under the policy. That's the reason in a nutshell. The Parsnip! 23:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Siouxsie, Steve Jones and that dirty old man Bill Grundy
OK, so there have been some reverts made regarding whether we should say Steve Jones "insulted" Bill Grundy, or that he called him a "dirty fucker". Can people put forward their arguments here, rather than reverting and discussing via edit summaries?

Personally, looking over the transcript at Bill Grundy, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Grundy "..tried to flirt with her. In reaction, Pistols guitarist Steve Jones called him a "dirty fucker"". Jones' reaction to Grundy's flirting was to call him a "dirty sod" and a "dirty old man" - the "dirty fucker" and "fucking rotter" insults only came after further goading by Grundy. So, while I'm perfectly happy to have offensive language reproduced in this article (per WP:NOTCENSORED), I just don't think it's factually correct in this case. --Stormie (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

 * A very reliable source, the NME, says that he did flirt with Sioux which makes it relevant to this article as she was one of the main catalysts. --JD554 (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, of course, I never said that he didn't. I said that Steve Jones' "dirty fucker" insult was not in response to Grundy's flirting, it came later in the exchange after Grundy specifically goaded Jones to "say something outrageous". His response to the flirting was "You dirty sod. You dirty old man." --Stormie (talk) 05:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Stormie. Jones' comment "You dirty bastard. You dirty fucker" was because grundy told him to say something outrageous: Click here to watch the clip on youtube

Influences section
Since consensus can change and User:Carliertwo is the only editor who insists on adding in all the irrelevant and too detailed information whilst other editors have not reverted the changes, it is clear that the consensus has changed. If Carliertwo can build a new consensus here to show that information should be re-added I will happily back down. --JD554 (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You should read more properly. No one has changed the "influence on other artists" since 14 months and no one complained about this chapter in the talk page. Here, above, there is only one remark from a goth fan who wasn't agree with the Shirley manson statement of the "musical genre" part. Member JD554, you haven't got any authority here so, you're not allowed to write "If Carliertwo can build a new consensus here to show that information should be re-added I will happily back down" : message received loud and clear. I hope. Reminder : The content of the "influence on other artists" has been judged valid since 14 months. apart from three people JD554, the follower of Wesley Dodds, and an anonymous member. these three people are in a minority, only here to make trouble. That is now patent. Carliertwo (talk) 16:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can I suggest you read WP:OWN. I have every right to edit any article on Wikipedia and cite any Wikipedia guideline to back up my edits. Just because the article hasn't been edited in 14 months doesn't make it correct to have it that way, if an article needs fixing it doesn't matter how long it has been. --JD554 (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

World of Warcraft
Please stop edit warring on this point. With multiple editors opposing its inclusion -- I don't think the sourcing is solid enough, and it really is trivia -- and the objection about it having nothing to with musical influence is well taken. If it were only my objection, I'd drop the point, but with two editors opposed and only you supporting, you should make the case for your content here and try to gain consensus. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your opinion. I repeat what wrote on User:Carliertwo's talk page. "Please do not delete it because you think it is trivial. Other people may be interested in this. This page is about Siouxsie Sioux the public person and she has inspired some game makers to include a reference to her in a game that is played by millions of people. Her cultural influence extends further than just music. Thank you." I see that someone has placed a note in the "Hailed By" section. This seems like a good place. Thanks for everyone's input on this! It is important to include all information on a subject, even if it is your personal opinion that it is trivial. What is trivial for one person may not be trivial for another. There are over 11 million subscribers to World of Warcraft - this is more people than there are living in Moscow, New York City or Tokyo.Michaelbarreto (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Sioux or Siouxsie?
For the sake of consistancy we must choose either Sioux or Siouxsie and use it throughout the article. May we have a consensus? I'd like the input of other editors. I for one support Siouxsie. It is basically what she's called in most interviews and reviews.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Siouxsie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ripswitched (talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

 * WP:SURNAME states: People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (i.e. Madonna, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used. It seems to me that Siouxsie Sioux has a recognizable surname: Sioux. In this case, we should follow the Manual of Style and use "Sioux" throughout the article. Elizium23 (talk) 18:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

 * I am going in tomorrow to change this article to conform with WP:SURNAME unless there are any reasoned objections. Elizium23 (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

 * This doesn't really make sense. There are exceptions and this is one of them. For the pseudonym Snoop Dogg, users have not reduced it to "Dogg". In this case, all the press articles and medias always present her as "Siouxsie", or "Siouxsie Sioux" but never as "Sioux", like in these 2 instances : a tv interview and a front cover of Mojo. One has to note that all her solo releases only mention "Siouxsie" on the front sleeve like the following instance, Dreamshow. Everybody knows her as "Siouxsie" and if you reduce it to "Sioux", people will make a confusion with Sioux of the Sioux indians. There's not a consensus on this case yet. Only one person defends the point of view of "Sioux" only" where as this page is seen at the average of 25000 times per month.Carliertwo (talk) 17 May 2011. 18:00 (cet)

 * Actually, I do have consensus already, because the Manual of Style is specific about this. Did you read it? It specifically addresses the case of Snoop Dogg, whose name does not include a recognizable surname. There are cases where the Manual of Style says to follow what is published in reliable sources, but this is not one of those cases. Elizium23 (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, now can you point to a reliable source that indicates that Sioux is her surname - either legally or implied? Her original surname is Ballion according to all WP:RS - and is currently, although for a while it was Clarke - and Sioux as well as Siouxsie are derivatives of her first name Susan. Siouxsie Sioux was her performing name with Siouxsie and the Banshees, and initially with The Creatures. The latter releases by her and Budgie referred to her as Siouxsie, and her solo career has been under the Siouxsie moniker. I understand that WP:MoS wishes to adopt a neutral tone in referencing it subjects, but the neutral single name for this artist is and has been Siouxsie. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been Siouxsie, and never Sioux alone, since everybody at university got interested in her in the 1980s. When we needed a surname for her, it was always "Dallion" [sic] since Dallion was commonly known to be her real name back in the '80s.
 * Sioux was never a surname; it is a redundant given name, Sue. A "Johnny Boy" would never be known simply as Boy.
 * Varlaam (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC) (Toronto)
 * "Sioux" WAS used as a surname - by the music press in the 1980s who often referred to her (if ironically) as "Miss Sioux". 86.133.86.142 (talk) 21:15, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Hatnote
I am rather baffled by this edit. I created that hatnote explicitly because I was confused about these two singers. Despite their spellings, their names are pronounced identically, and it is unlikely that I will be the last person confused between the two. I am going to place the hatnote back, and would appreciate some discussion before it is removed again. Thank you. 98.71.223.84 (talk) 22:24, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no need to mention this because the popularity of these two singers is not comparable. Siouxsie is a well known influential singer who reaches 3,240,000 results on google1 where as the other singer Susie reaches 200 000 results.2. No person with a pop-rock culture will confuse them : this looks like a lame attempt of a fan to make the name of her singer know by a bigger audience. This request is rejected. Carliertwo (talk) 29 April 2011. 18:00 (cet)
 * User:Carliertwo's comments in italics, followed by my responses:
 * There is no need to mention this because the popularity of these two singers is not comparable. Well, first of all, WP:HAT says nothing about using popularity or renown to make decisions about hatnotes.  It speaks of making clear that which might otherwise be confused.  But even if it did have a role, WP:GOOGLE makes it clear that using a search engine result to determine issues of notability has only limited utility.  But again, as I've already said, notability is not the issue here.  The issue is avoiding confusion, and I came here myself out of initial confusion.
 * No person with a pop-rock culture will confuse them. That may well be so, (I'm not even going to try to guess what is meant by a "person with a pop-rock culture", a phrase so vague as to have no discernible meaning), but it doesn't matter.  The article Siouxsie Sioux does not sit on the Wikipedia servers waiting to be read by "person[s] with a pop-rock culture", it is here for everyone, even people who have never heard of either of these women.  If we start writing our articles presuming the cultural backgrounds of our readers, we're going to confuse even more readers.
 * This request is rejected. Request?  Request?  I didn't "request" anything.  I am a legitimate Wikipedia editor, and I do not need to submit "requests" to edit articles.  I do expect, however, that all editors will practice civil behaviour, which includes engaging other civil editors in discussion on matters of dispute.  Now I must give Carliertwo credit for the fact that this time, unlike the first time, she at least came here and explained her revert.  But there would have been no harm in leaving the hatnote up while the discussion was ongoing.  Instead, it was taken off without waiting for a reply to the talk page post.  But, as I said, at least it was explained this time, so it's not that big a deal.  However, the thing that Carliertwo said that I actually did take offense to was this:
 * this looks like a lame attempt of a fan to make the name of her singer know by a bigger audience.  I am not a "fan" of either Susie Suh or Siouxsie Sioux.  I am a Wikipedia editor who comes here when I have a question about something, and then I usually jump from subject to subject, editing where I see need.  Usually it's an edit or two, occasionally I take on a major project.  The presumption that I am a fan of one of the singers was not, in of itself, unreasonable.  However the presumption that I allowed it to affect my editorial judgment is incredible, given Carliertwo's own editing history.  Look at her edits to date:
 * 45.2% of all non-anon edits to Siouxsie Sioux (513 of 1135) have been made by User:Carliertwo
 * Not only does User:Carliertwo dominate editing to this article, Carliertwo's own editing history is overwhelmingly dominated by Siouxise Sioux; a provable minimum of 57.4% of Carliertwo's edits (at least 1547 out of 2692, and quite possibly more) have been pertaining to Siouxie Sioux. This can be seen when we include edits to Siouxie's band (382 edits), Siouxie's recordings (498 edits ), Siouxie's band members (106 edits ), and this very talk page. (48 edits)
 * And these numbers don't state the whole picture. For example, I did not include her edits to Siouxie's warmup band or their music--I just thought that was overkill.  Also, there may very well be edits to additional Siouxsie-related articles; the search does not show us Carliertwo's edit numbers on articles for which she has 25 edits or less.  So while it appears that "just" 57.4% of her edits are Siouxsie-related, the total could very well be much higher.

 * I, on the other hand, have contributed one, single, solitary edit to Susie Suh. And I'm being accused of being a "fan"?  That's just patently absurd.

 * Yet here's the thing. I can acknowledge that, despite the fact that I am a real life person who was confused and felt a hatnote was needed here, there may be policies that I have not learned over three years of editing that would indicate that the hatnote does not, in fact, belong here.  And I'm okay with that.  But what I am not okay with is having the matter decided by someone with a severe case of WP:OWN.  Is that too much to say?  I don't think so; my fully-explained edits were removed with the words, "This request is rejected." What kind of an editor has the temerity to believe that other editors need to "request" to make an edit (and a fairly innocuous edit at that).  Since I'm completely objective about the subject of the article (apparently unlike some other editors here), I am placing the hatnote back on the article, where I believe it is useful.  I will accept it's removal, but only by an uninvolved party, preferably a sysop.  At the very least someone who does not edit about this singer, and someone with no history of working with Carliertwo.

 * Really, this whole episode is amazing to me, as I can't even see why this is even an issue. It's not like a BLP dispute, it's about a stupid hatnote, with no disparaging content at all.  Just amazing.  98.71.218.201 (talk) 00:38, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

 * What a long long reply for a one line hatnote.Carliertwo (talk) 9 May 2011. 13:00 (cet)

 * Indeed. And had you accepted my original, brief, completely reasonable explanation, my leviathan post would not have been necessary.  If your intent is to deride my post, you mock your own spawn. 98.71.218.201 (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Wow. Rarely have I seen an anon make such a powerful, well-documented argument, and all over such a minor point.  But she was right.  Un  sch  ool  03:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I see that the hatnote has been changed, but not deleted. I approve of the new, shorter form. Unschool 00:24, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

re "Influence on other artists" section
Reading this in conjunction with Siouxsie and the Banshees, there seems to be a lot of duplication - of more concern is that much of the material in this article is artists referencing the band. I think that only those quotes that are directly noting Sioux's specific contribution to the band, singing and stage presence and maybe lyrics, or contemporary culture, style and attitude, should be kept. Any comment that references the band or its music properly stays only in the band article, since the music was mostly a collaborative and joint effort which is acknowledged by the credits on the records. Unless there are sources which clearly define Sioux's individual contribution to the general comments regarding SatB (or The Creatures, but I may have missed those) I shall be removing them in a short while. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

MOS:ENGVAR
Currently, there is no dominant English variant in the article. Some editors have used American English, and some have used British English. Therefore, I propose to standardise the article and use British English throughout, due to Siouxsie's strong national ties with England. Any objections? Elizium23 (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I see that the article has already been tagged with Use British English since May 2011, so this is settled. Elizium23 (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Original research and unverified claims
This article is loaded top to bottom with original research and unverified claims. It is very much lacking in sources. I will begin removing unsourced claims if they are not sourced. Night Ranger (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The "BLP sources" and "original research" tags (added yesterday by Night Ranger)) were abusive as the content of this article is based on 80 reliable notes and references coming from biographies, articles published in the british press and professionnal websites. Adding these tags looked like both excessive and pettifogging. It also looked like demonstrations of both bad faith and bad will from an user in reaction of a different point of view expressed about his "Bill Grundy-Punk'76-Lydon episode" edit. Had this user put "citation needed" at the end of a few sentences, a good will and a good will would have been shown but it was not the case. I saw that this user also posted on Bill Grundy (and that he/she is a reader of a Glen Matclock' Biography which is fine). If this user is interested in both "ethics" and all the truth about history of punk, I suggest that he/she also bothers to post on Sex Pistols that "Johnny Rotten" and co also wore a swastika on various occasions like we did for the Siouxsie'page. One sees Rotten appearing with a swastika making a nazi salute on that picture shot during a S.P's swedish press conference. (Bowie was accused in 1976 to have made a nazi salute at the Victoria station in London and we mentionned it on wikipedia). Rotten also used a visual with a swastika for the Pretty vacant video. I presume that if his/her concern is to tell all the history of punk on wikipedia, he/she is going to mention this on the Pistols page. Will he/she ? I contacted the main user of the Sex Pistols page but he/she didn't bother to add these informations where as he is very aware of it. Hiding bad episodes about a band is revisiting history, it is writing a hagiography, isn't it! So, I presume that Night Ranger could also help to resolve this issue on Pistols. I watched the Bill Grundy video many times, it is on youtube and I have a different point of view. Indeed, when a young girl told an old man "I've always wanted to meet you", it is "teasing" and it is also a mockery. Carliertwo (talk) 1 December 2011. 18:00 (cet)

Dallion
I saw her in concert in the 1980s and have "known" her surname to be Dallion for a quarter of a century, until 3 minutes ago.

The article should still mention that she was long known by an incorrect name, if that is really the case.

Varlaam (talk) 14:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Patrick Clarke?
So... According to imdb and one another website, she's been married to a guy named Patrick Clarke since 2007. Is that accurate, or was there just a mix up? (Since Budgie's real name is Peter Clarke). Le Rusecue (talk) 04:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

 * No, Siouxie is married to Pete Clarke, also known a Budgie. 109.150.121.109 (talk) 12:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

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Bilingual in what?
"Her mother, Betty, was a bilingual half-Scots and half-English secretary,"

She was bilingual in Scots and English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.71.245.236 (talk) 22:13, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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Tale of Two Suzies
I am placing a hatnote here to clarify that this singer is not another singer. I see that the other singer already has a hatnote, and it makes sense to me that this one as well. After all, their names are pronounced 100% identically, and someone could come across the name of this singer and wonder if it was an alternate spelling. Best to help the reader out. Un sch  ool  20:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to say that I approved of this edit.Un<b style="color: #23CE40;">sch</b><b style="color: #7ED324;">ool</b> 00:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

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Request for comments 2019
Can this DailyMail source "a long interview of singer Florence Welch published in 2010 citing Siouxsie Sioux as one of her references", be included in the Siouxsie article in the influence section, as an exception only for this page ? I ask this because the Daily Mail was deprecated as a reliable source for poor fact checking in their politics pages and stories in their news pages in 2017 and 2019. The interview was conducted by Louise Gannon which résumé can be found at. Gannon interviewed other artists such as Mick Jagger and Madonna. Carliertwo (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Louise Gannon's interview of Madonna is also available on the DM source via web.archive The Florence Welch inteview DM source would be helpful for the Siouxsie article, as it is an interview of Florence Welch containing this statement :<< I'm lucky that there seems to be a massive revival in female performers. My icons were always women like Kate Bush, Stevie Nicks and Siouxsie Sioux. Who wouldn't be proud to carry o n that tradition? >>. She clearly recognized Siouxsie as an inspiration in this interview made by journalist "LOUISE GANNON FOR MAILONLINE", which was published on 14 August 2010.

This source would be an exception, only for that Siouxsie article as The Daily Mail source was deprecated as a reliable source in 2017 and in 2019 after the problems of poor fact-checking regarding politics and Brexit campaign; <<Consensus has determined that the Daily Mail (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist. As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles. An edit filter should be put in place going forward to warn editors attempting to use the Daily Mail as a reference. The general themes of the support !votes centred on the Daily Mail’s reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication>>. Carliertwo (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Support. This is an interview of a singer; it is not a fake interview of a politician. I dont think anyone should doubt the veracity of this interview. It was published in the "Culture" pages of the newspaper. Carliertwo (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose not solely because of the sourcing, but also because the section is already something of an examplefarm. Given the number of mentions already included, I don't think one with less reliable sourcing warrants inclusion. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This answer is off topic, this rfc is only about whether this long Q & A of a musician is a  true interview or a fake. The rfc consensus said 'generally unreliable' which means that the newspaper source can be acceptable under certain circumstances and this is one of them. The Daily Mail has always published interviews of artists/singers/actors for promotion of new albums, films in their Culture pages.  Carliertwo (talk) 08:06, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The question asked is whether that source should be included, and my answer is that it should not. The fact that the source has published other interviews, does not speak to whether this one is real or fake, nor does it mean that this is a circumstance under which the source should be used. Concerns expressed in previous discussions of this source were not limited to its political content. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:40, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Your last sentence is not correct: the Culture pages of the DailyMail with interviews of artists were not mentioned /discussed in those rfcs.  Carliertwo (talk) 15:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

*Support - Unless something better is out there then I don't see why this shouldn't be used - This looks to be a legit interview so for this specific case I see no harm with it being used, (I will just add that my supporting shouldn't set a precedence that DM is fine as a source because it isn't however this is an interview and not the usual tabloid shite). – Davey 2010 Talk 18:27, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per sources below (Thanks Binksternet), FWIW I hadn't bothered searching prior to my !vote but anyway I'm happy with the sources presented. – Davey 2010 Talk 19:19, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , The DailyMail source is the only source/interview providing a quote of Florence Welch revering Siouxsie. None of the sources providing by Blinksternet would fit for the Influence section as they are all assumptions of journalists with not one single quote of Florence Welch. Your first view saying that this interview was legit, was reasonable. We have tried our best to find sources with interviews of singers citing Siouxsie, I have found one for Florence Welch but you don't want it to be included because you don't make any difference between the Culture pages of the DM and the Political pages of the DM. This is a pity. Following your logic, I might include reviews of Bjork albums claiming that Bjork was influenced by Siouxsie (there are tons of sources claiming this) whereas it is not correct --> Bjork has never namedropped Siouxsie in an interview, and Bjork gave hundreds and hundreds of interviews.  Carliertwo (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose. I am not against telling the reader that Florence took inspiration from Siouxsie, but let's find better sources. First off, the Daily Mail is terribly unreliable. Second, the Daily Mail source only mentions Siouxsie – it fails to describe the why or the how of the connection. Third, there are better sources describing how Florence's vocal stylings take after Siouxsie's. Binksternet (talk) 19:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Is there a better source than a quote coming from directly an artist instead of assumptions of journalists ?, none of your sources contain a quote from Florence Welch, the sources are feeble, there are reviews of albums, all are just assumptions of journalists. The point of the influence section in a wiki biography is to let the artists speak and not put names in their mouth. The quote of an artist citing their references will always weigh far far heavier than a view of a journalist, advancing that X has been influenced by Y without any quote to support the claim.
 * So no, none of your sources is better than the Florence welch interview of the DailyMail : << I'm lucky that there seems to be a massive revival in female performers. My icons were always women like Kate Bush, Stevie Nicks and Siouxsie Sioux. Who wouldn't be proud to carry on that tradition? >>. And seriously, do you think that "Vogue Italy" ( a fashion website) is better than the only legit online interview of Florence Wlech citing Siouxsie as an influence ? Carliertwo (talk) 19:42, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * When the Daily Mail publishes a quote, I question whether the person really said it, or was the quote fabricated.
 * It will involve more work, but Florence's inspiration from Siouxsie can be given its own sentence or two, rather than being relegated to a simple list entry. Binksternet (talk) 20:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * What you're saying is astonishing. The DM source contains a long interview (Q & A) of Florence, it is a legit interview, this is not a quote isolated in the middle of an article. You can click on this link via the web.archive website link, so you won't see any ad. https://web.archive.org/web/20160304212113/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1302232/Florence-Welch-The-time-dad-worried-Pete-Doherty-proposed.html Have you clicked on it ? Carliertwo (talk) 20:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like a creative writing project. Binksternet (talk) 21:23, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I've made a research about the author. Journalist Louise Gannon has an impressive résumé as one can looks at it on the bcm-agency website, she also works for Elle and The Sunday Times Magazine. She has conducted interviews other famous singers like Madonna, once for DM and another one for Elle magazine . Louie Gannon's interview of Mick Jagger is mentioned in this biography about the Stones singer . She's not an anonymous writer, does this count  ?. Carliertwo (talk) 23:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That certainly helps. Binksternet (talk) 06:39, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose Had I been aware of the linked RFC on the Daily Mail, I would have !voted to support its premise but oppose its conclusion. I am convinced that the Daily Mail is generally unreliable, which is another way of saying that it is sometimes reliable but usually not. Perhaps the interview you wish to cite is one of those cases in which the DM is actually to be trusted (although see my previous "usually not"). But the level of anti-DM sentiment on Wikipedia is high ... perhaps outsized to its actual unreliability ... so you are not likely to get a stable consensus of editors to support an exception. Vadder (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

December 2020: Peter Fenton (guitarist) listed at Articles for deletion/Peter Fenton (guitarist)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Peter Fenton (guitarist) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter Fenton (guitarist) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Carliertwo (talk) 23:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit removed because of unsourced at best
Hello. I Made an edit to the SIOUXSIE SIOUX page stating that 'like her brother she is a fan of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club''. The edit was removed because the edit was unsourced. I Got this info from the following interview in THE DAILY TELEGRAPH news paper dated 25/10/2003 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3605285/In-black-and-white.html) and also via an interview in UNCUT Magazine in September 2007 (https://wholehoggblog.wordpress.com/tag/siouxsie-sioux/). Please can someone put in my edit as I think this is relevant information about the artist. I Do not know how to ad reference to my edits so can someone do it for me please? Thank you Bestbass42 (talk) 09:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Siouxsie Sioux