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Talk:Harper's Magazine

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Neither the awards and honors nor the history of harpers link currently lead to their respective PDFs. Unfortunately I couldn't find them in a brief search either. Would be great if someone could change the links to wherever the PDFs have been relocated. 62.178.166.85 (talk) 10:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Question: Is Harper's the oldest continuously published magazine? Was there an interruption in the publication of the Saturday Evening Post, which boasts of its founding in 1722 by Benjamin Franklin? Alba 00:51, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, there was an interruption: "By the late 1890s the Saturday Evening Post was in serious financial difficulties. In October, 1897, the newspaper was purchased for $1,000 by Cyrus H. Curtis, the owner of the Ladies' Home Journal. The Saturday Evening Post was redesigned and on January, 1898, reappeared as a journal." (source: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAsaturday.htm and can be backed up by http://www.satevepost.org/mediakit/history.html) 128.119.103.234 06:53, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Intro
The introductory sentence should be expanded a bit:

 * Harper's Magazine (or simply Harper's) is a ????????????? monthly magazine, published in the United States.

I am not very familiar with the mag, having read only a few random articles linked from various sites, so I don't have a good image of what HM is, but users more familiar with Harper's should be able to summarize in 1-3 words what is important/notable about it and add it instead of the question marks above. Paranoid 12:53, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it's important to mention the class component of the magazine and it's audience explicitly as it is characteristic of the publication.

Interesting I put neo-liberal as a description to harper's mag. and was blocked. What kind of sensorship is this? Weekly standard is neoconservative, understandably, national review is conservative but harper's nothing. Am I to assume neutrality, or is this just the slanted point of view of wikipedia?
 * I suspect the reversion was in error. Nrets 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "Neoliberalism" is not the same thing as "leftist" or "progressive" or even just plain old "liberal". Harper's definitely does not take a neoliberal perspective. (The edit wasn't vandalism though.) --Birdmessenger 10:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You are entirey correct, neoliberalism is something entirely different, somehow I missed the "neo" part completely. I think simply "liberal" or "progessive left" as you suggest are fine. Nrets 13:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it should possibly be noted that while today Harpers may have a liberal viewpoint - it's not clear that it had such a viewpoint throughout its history. Indeed, during its heyday in the mid to late 19th century, it was quite middle-of-the-road. jmdeur 20:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.148.60.151 (talk)

Since the above debate is about "neoliberal", I tried to just mention that it is left-leaning. This was reverted twice. Will whoever is doing that please stop and discuss it here? Why do you object to characterizing Harper's as left-leaning? This is not at all a controversial claim, by any stretch of the imagination!! Xezlec (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio
I'm not going to post a copyvio on this, though I am going to post an RfC, as I think this could be salvaged by a rewrite by someone familiar with this publication. The current text borrows a tad too directly from. == Cecropia | explains it all ® 00:47, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * You seem to be asking for a legal opinion. RfC is not the appropriate place for that -- you'll get plenty of armchair lawyers, but probably not anyone with actual legal experience. --Carnildo 04:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, actually no. IANAL but I've been involved in intellectual property issues in my work for years. The problem is that parts of the article are clearly copyvios, quoting big parts of the original verbatim and apparently without permission or attribution. But there is significant added material, and I'm trying to see if we can get agreement on a rewrite rather than throw the whole thing out. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 05:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * You still seem to be asking for a legal opinion, on whether or not everything since the edit that added the copyvio material is considered a "derivative work" of the copyvio. --Carnildo 06:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I have rewritten the text in response to the concerns Cecropia raised. -- Viajero 13:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

March 2006 issue as Lapham's last-is this correct?
Lapham is leaving in April, so I believe that it is actually the April issue that will be his last. --Birdmessenger 00:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I just saw the NYT piece (jeez, Wikipedia beat them to the story!) that says March 2006 was his last.--Birdmessenger 00:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The April 2006 issue is out now; Lewis Lapham's name is still atop the masthead as editor and his "Notebook" column is still in its usual place. I'm therefore removing the info about March 2006 being his final issue as editor. --Birdmessenger 20:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

AIDS Denialism Article
Is it really relevant that a blog favoured the article? Is there any reason to mention the support of this particular blog, other than its official-sounding name? Thes entinel 17:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Not really. I think it was put in there in the spirit of balance, but I wouldn't objet to removing the mention of the blog. Nrets 19:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this section should be removed. Is it the type of paragraph that would be found in Britannica? The paragraph is more focused on other people's/organizations reactions than on Harper's magazine itself. Though not entirely unjustified, I don't think this paragraph suits the tone or spirit of a general information article about a magazine. Surely one can't include every objectionable article that a journal has included in its entire history. Once the current outrage at this inflammatory article passes, it will seem much ado about nothing. Infantsamuelatprayer 22:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I strongly disagree. Harper's decision to publish that article was and will remain quite notable. While it may or may not be a good idea to include a description of every poorly received publishing decision, surely the ones that generate the most controversy warrant mention in a general article about the publication. I wouldn't object to trimming the discussion of other reactions though, perhaps by deleting the last sentence of that paragraph.--Birdmessenger 23:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Relationships
Somewhere the article should explain the relationship between this magazine, the former Harper's Weekly], and the fashion magazine [[Harper's Bazaar. I would do so if I knew enough, but really don't.  Rlquall 15:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Nrets
Here is the grand total of Celia slamming:

"Farber's favorable presentation of virologist Peter Duesberg's argument that there is no direct link between HIV and AIDS garnered mostly criticism among AIDS activists[5] and others[6]. As a result, the Treatment Action Campaign Web site, a South African group campaigning for greater access to HIV treatment, posted a 37-page rebuttal written by eight prominent AIDS researchers documenting over 50 errors in Farber's article, claiming it contains misleading implications, false statements, and implications without evidence of sinister motives.[7] [8]."

After all this, apparently, one simple solitary link is just too much for "Nrets" to tolerate in this article:

"A partial rebuttal to Gallo's response can be found here."

Give me a break. Revolver 03:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Four freaking references for the apologists:

 * 1) ^ Farber Feedback. POZ Magazine. URL accessed 13 March 2006.
 * 2) ^ Kim, Richard (2006-03-02). Harper's Publishes AIDS Denialist. URL accessed 13 March 2006.
 * 3) ^ (2006-03-04) Errors in Celia Farber's March 2006 article in Harper's Magazine. Treatment Action Campaign. URL accessed 13 March 2006.
 * 4) ^ Miller, Lia (2006-03-13). An Article in Harper's Ignites a Controversy Over H.I.V.. The New York Times. URL accessed 13 March 2006.

But no, one solitary reference in opposition would violate NPOV accoring to Nrets. Revolver 03:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm amazed at the level of censorship Nrets seems to advocate. He seems to want to delete opposing viewpoints represented at a ratio of approximately 5:1 or worse, not because they don't exist, but because they have been "responded to ad nauseaum". Such attitude is amazing, even if such viewpoints WERE pure hokum. The viewpoint is clearly presented as a viewpoint. There's no excuse for taking out a single opposing link. Revolver 03:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with Revolver that as the paragraph stands now, a single opposing link from an authoritative source is appropriate, given that multiple links are provided to sources that argue against AIDS reappraisal. However, I'd like to see the entire paragraph focus less on a back and forth of AIDS reappraisal and more on the controversy generated by the publication of that article (if there's a difference).--Birdmessenger 12:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's my point, the link provided by Revolver basically is a link to an article which basically restates the content of the Farber article. I do agree with User:Birdmessenger that this pargraph should really focus on reaction to the article, not a rehash of the AIDS-rebuttal "debate". It seems like Revolver uses every excuse as a plattform to espouse his viewpoints about AIDS reappraisal. Then, when he is called on it, accuses everyone of censorship. My goodness! Nrets 13:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

"Controversies"
There is a difference between magazines publishing articles on controversial subjects and a magazine or an article itself actually being the subject of a controversy. For example, the third example given, Lapham's fictionalized account of the RNC, resulted in Lapham writing a latter of apology, so it makes sense for that example to be in a "Controversies" section, because the article was the subject of a controversy.

Controversies being the subject of an article, however, are different. I see no reason for Milgram's research to be in this section, anymore than the fact that Harpers publishes articles on abortion. Likewise Velikovsky's book should not be listed, unless it was Larrabee's article itself that was the subject of the controversy.

I'm being bold and removing these two examples, and anhy new examples should be similarly examined. — Asbestos 19:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The article discusses only Harper's Monthly, but the illustration, Chicago in Flames, is from Harper's Weekly, a different, defunct magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.23.48 (talk) 00:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Witch of Westport"
Someone claiming to be Norman Mailer's archivist says that, despite what this article asserts, Mailer did not write a 1963 story for Harper's called "The Witch of Westport". There may be something to this. The assertion that Mailer did write such a story rests only on an unsourced anonymous edit. A number of other web sites cite an A&E biography as the source for Mailer's authorship of the story -- but they may be following the samed unsourced assertion in the Bewitched article. Considering that Harper's offers the complete table of contents for all of its 1963 issues, and "The Witch of Westport" is nowhere to be found, I don't think this rumor is credible.

"The Witch of Westport" does seem to have been the original name given to the scripts which were produced as the Betwitched television show, but I can't find a basis for asserting either Mailer's authorship or publication in Harper's. -- Shunpiker (talk) 23:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Left-wing or far left
I think we can agree the magazine today is left leaning. Some of the articles to me seem more extreme than your average Labour party or whathaveyou platform. Wouldn't that be far left? What source might we use or this characterisation? I don't think it is overly important but equally well I don't think the label of far left would be unfair, misleading or make anyone uncomfortable. From what I've seen the articles cover a wide range of topics and perspectives, from centrist to Marxist. Obotlig (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Cover Gallery
I like the addition of the cover gallery. Does anyone have any interesting covers they could scan? Filling it out with 4 or 8 notable ones would be nice, or with art from inside. Thanks. Obotlig (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

History
This article jumps from the 1850's to the 1960's (I believe) and leaves out huge hunks of history of this magazine. For instance Harper's was one of the most important magazines during the Civil War in the United States. Nothing is mentioned of this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Residentfan (talk • contribs) 01:23, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good project. Feel free to fill in the gap. Obotlig (talk) 01:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

=Second oldest continually publishing magazine-?=

More like THIRD! Town and Country is second, since it began publishing in 1846. See their article for verification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.227.185.76 (talk) 21:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested edit
I am posting this message on behalf of Harper's Magazine to the volunteer editors who maintain this, as well as other, Wikipedia pages. It is my understanding that there is not a house style, since, as is stated by Wikipedia, "Wikipedia does not have a centralized author or content reviewer." However, in the case that I am mistaken and there is a house style, or if there are volunteer editors who operate as if there were, I would like to kindly request that our magazine only be referred to by its actual and legal name: Harper's Magazine. And not: Harper’s. Thank you for your assistance in this matter. It is much appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VerifiedInformationMatters (talk • contribs) 18:56, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, . What an innocent statement you have made. Of course there are many house styles and they fall under a very serious undertaking named WP:MOS. If one peeks at any of the talk pages: WT:MOS there is a dreadful phrase: The attached page is subject to discretionary sanctions. Please edit carefully. One either names these keepers the style police and avoids as much allergic interaction as possible or ventures into their world and thereafter lives an otherworldly life as Alice. So for your inquiry, I agree on the face of it and I trust MOS would agree, being proper editors, all. The problems in not following this are readiliy apparent: all the other Harpers from ferries to weeklys, to trade publications, to bazaar, that perhaps might be commonly shortened to Harper's. Moreover, if we are anything as an encyclopedia, we are not common. I am going to notify you by 'ping' and I hope you notice it, but I imagine you will be watching this talk page. I will now look at the article...I am not going to reset the answer template yet but will return (this is on my watchlist). There is a miniscule chance someone else might discover this, especially since I have commented.  Fylbecatulous talk 15:46, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

. Hello, again. Harper's Magazine (also called Harper's) from the lead (introduction) is true. I counted eleven headline titles from WP:Reliable Sources, most well respected, referring to your publication in a shortened popular use version. We must obey what our reliable sources are saying, since we cannot engage in WP:Original Research. We are bound by our established constrants of writing what our sources have already written as established fact. In this case, they are referring to your magazine as Harper's. So this establishes the opening parenthetical: also called Harper's. In WIkipedia's viewpoint, your crusade for change would be to complain to those editors at the esteemed publications to stop nicking your legal name. I nor any editor may delete the parenthetical, because it is found to be true. I read though the article and it seems fairly well distributed in use of HM v H throughout. I will give it one copy-edit to see if I can reword some instances. Thanks for your request and wishing you all the best. Fylbecatulous talk 16:55, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Harper's Magazine


text:
Talk:Province of Lower Silesia

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Is there any chance of the edit war here stopping without my having to protect the page for a few hours? Thanks. -- Pakaran 00:52, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please protect it on my version. This was my article after all, and that IP 24.2.xxx is a known vandal, fighting against the English language. He make his edits just to damage the article, duplicate the text from the bottom of the page, and insert unnecessary foreign names. Nico 00:57, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I didn't protect it; check the log. Also, the intent of protection is to prevent edit wars - NOT to resolve them in favor of anyone. Pakaran 00:58, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I know you didn't protect it. That's what I was asking you to do :) Nico 01:10, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I protected it. I am not taking sides in the dispute. If the anonymous user is a vandal, raise it elsewhere and have it debated. I've simply left it at the last edit for the moment. When tempers have calmed down it can be unprotected. FearÉIREANN 01:02, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * He has removed himself off the Vandalism in progress page. That IP is devoted - only - to vandalize articles I edit. Just look at Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen, where he recently deleted the English translation of the name, or how he totally messed up Kaliningrad. Nico 01:10, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Any attempt by anyone in the debate to use sysop powers to insert their version on a protected page would be an abuse that would raise the prospect of they losing sysop powers. Is that clear enough, Nico. Now stop it. FearÉIREANN 01:08, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * My version was the actual one. I just asked him to protect the page. Nico 01:10, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Are you actually an admin (or sysop, whatever you want to call it), Nico? I just ask because you seem to be not listed at Administrators, and you should be if you are. --Camembert

 * It looks like Nico reverted the page in the same minute that it was protected. I don't know whether he's a sysop, but I don't think he is.  Pakaran 02:07, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I presumed Nico was because there was no mention of any other sysop involved and the anonymous user can't be. If I am wrong, I apologise and I sympathise in having to deal with vandals. My advice is just to leave the page for the moment. If the IP user is vandalising other pages and can be shown to be so then he can be blocked. I know nothing about this topic so cannot say who is right. FearÉIREANN 01:15, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am not a sysop. It was my version which was protected first, and if you compare, you will see which version should be protected. Nico 01:17, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

All right, folks - Nico is NOT a sysop, he just edited the page the minute before it was protected, but after Jtdirl looked at it (and presumably clicked protect) the minute when it was protected. I just ran an SQL, and his privs are the empty string. If you really want to know what that means, ask me, but it means he is not a sysop. As such, he did not edit this page while it was protected, only continued the edit war, and that's the only thing people should be criticizing him for. Is this clear enough? --Pakaran 02:13, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Oh, neither Nico nor I protected the page - Jtdirl did - check the protection log. Thanks. Pakaran 02:14, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Err...so should we move the page back to the Nico version, which is what it was when it was protected? john 02:58, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Probably, but I'd want some kind of evidence that that version was objectively better. Given that Nico's calling the anon a vandal, without obvious reason, I'm going to stay the heck away from it for at least an hour or two. Pakaran 03:06, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Feel free to compare the versions. That IP has duplicated the text at the bottom of the page. Previously, he has also deleted the flag and interwiki links. I've also given you examples of previous vandalism from this person, like that at Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen and Kaliningrad. He is in a permanent state of edit war by a dozen of other people too, including Daniel Quinlan. Nico 03:14, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Nico - the reason the page was protected was to stop the edit war for the time being - not to decide whether you or the anon "won" it or deserve to "win" it. Is that clear?  Pakaran 01:21, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Does anybody can tell me, when Lower Silesia was a Prussia province!?? It used to be Silesia Silesia (Prussian province). Please copy the staff over and delete this entry! Cautious

 * Lower Silesia was a Prussian province from 1919 to 1938, and again from 1941 to 1945, apparently. john 20:15, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Um... excuse me for my newness and ignorance... but what's this guy doing that's so ban worthy? all I see is an edit war. same in the Kaliningrad page. I dont see the vandalisim? perhaps someone can post this on my talk page, because I cant for the life of me see whats wrong here. Pellaken 07:25, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Province of Lower Silesia


text: User talk:150.135.161.209

title: User talk:150.135.161.209


text:
List of airports in Japan

This is a list of airports in Japan, grouped by classification and sorted by location. As of February 2012, the country has a total of 98 airports, of which 28 are operated by the central government and 67 by local governments.

Airport classifications
In Japan, airports serving civil aviation routes are governed by the Aeronautical Law for safety purposes, by the Noise Prevention Law for noise prevention purposes and by the Airport Act for economic development purposes. The latter law groups such airports into four legal classifications:

 * Hub/First Class airports (拠点空港) serve a hub role in domestic or international transportation. They are subdivided into privately managed airports (the three largest international airports), national airports (run by the central government) and special regional airports (hubs run by prefectural or municipal governments).
 * Regional/Second Class airports (地方管理空港) are other prefectural/municipal airports that the central government deems important to national aviation.
 * Joint-use/Third Class airports (共用空港) are those shared between civil aviation and the Japan Self-Defense Forces.
 * Other airports (その他の空港) fall outside the above categories.

Some airports in Japan do not fall under the scope of the Japanese airport statutes. These include the three major U.S. military air bases in Japan (Kadena Air Base, MCAS Iwakuni and Yokota Air Base) and certain smaller aerodromes for firefighting, corporate or other special purposes. In 2001, the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, which receives 20% of the public-works construction budget, commenced a scheme to build airfields predominantly for airlifting vegetables. Kasaoka Airfield was one of nine airfields constructed; however it was later determined that flying vegetables to Okayama from Kasaoka took just as long due to loading and unloading, and cost approximately six times as much as road transport.

title: List of airports in Japan


text:
Kurt Weil

Kurt Weil (2 January 1932 – 12 December 2012) was a Swiss jazz vibraphonist.

Weil was born in Zürich. He learned piano and trombone as a youth, but was playing vibraphone professionally by 1952, as a member of Rio de Gregori's ensemble. He moved to Stockholm in 1955, playing with Hacke Björksten, Stan Getz, and Tony Scott. He founded his own group in 1957, which included Raymond Court, George Gruntz, and Daniel Humair as sidemen; this ensemble played for more than a decade in varying forms. In the 1970s, Weil ended the band and moved back to Switzerland, working for GRP Records and running a jazz radio program. He returned to music in the 1990s with a new band, playing with Joe Beck, Mark Egan, and Danny Gottlieb.

Weil died on 12 December 2012, of natural causes.

title: Kurt Weil


text:
Hudson River School

The  Hudson River School was a mid-19th-century American art movement embodied by a group of landscape painters whose aesthetic vision was influenced by Romanticism. Early on, the paintings typically depicted the Hudson River Valley and the surrounding area, including the Catskill, Adirondack, and White Mountains.

Works by second-generation artists expanded to include other locales in New England, the Maritimes, the American West, and South America.

Overview
The school of landscape painters flourished between 1825 and 1870, which was often called the ”native”, ”American”, or ”New York” school. New York City was the center of it, many members had studios in the Tenth Street Studio Building in Greenwich Village. The term Hudson River School is thought to have been coined by the New York Tribune art critic Clarence Cook or by landscape painter Homer Dodge Martin. The name appeared in print in 1879, it was initially used during the 1870s disparagingly, as the style had gone out of favor after the plein-air Barbizon School had come into vogue among American patrons and collectors.

Hudson River School paintings reflect three themes of America in the 19th century: discovery, exploration, and settlement. They also depict the American landscape as a pastoral setting, where human beings and nature coexist peacefully. Hudson River School landscapes are characterized by their realistic, detailed, and sometimes idealized portrayal of nature, often juxtaposing peaceful agriculture and the remaining wilderness which was fast disappearing from the Hudson Valley just as it was coming to be appreciated for its qualities of ruggedness and sublimity. In general, Hudson River School artists believed that nature in the form of the American landscape was a reflection of God, though they varied in the depth of their religious conviction. They were inspired by European masters such as Claude Lorrain, John Constable, and J. M. W. Turner. Several painters were members of the Düsseldorf School of Painting, and they were educated by German Paul Weber.

Founder
Thomas Cole is generally acknowledged as the founder of the School. He took a steamship up the Hudson in the autumn of 1825, stopping first at West Point then at Catskill landing. He hiked west high into the eastern Catskill Mountains of New York to paint the first landscapes of the area. The first review of his work appeared in the New York Evening Post on November 22, 1825. Cole was from England and the brilliant autumn colours in the American landscape inspired him. His close friend Asher Brown Durand became a prominent figure in the school. A prominent element of the Hudson River School was its themes of nationalism, nature, and property. Adherents of the movement also tended to be suspicious of the economic and technological development of the age.

Second generation

The second generation of Hudson River School artists emerged after Cole's premature death in 1848; its members included Cole's prize pupil Frederic Edwin Church, John Frederick Kensett, and Sanford Robinson Gifford. Works by artists of this second generation are often described as examples of Luminism. Kensett, Gifford, and Church were also among the founders of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City.

Most of the finest works of the second generation were painted between 1855 and 1875. Artists such as Frederic Edwin Church and Albert Bierstadt were celebrities then. They were both influenced by the Düsseldorf school of painting, and Bierstadt had studied in that city for several years. Thousands of people would pay 25 cents per person to view paintings such as Niagara and The Icebergs. The epic size of these landscapes was unexampled in earlier American painting and reminded Americans of the vast, untamed, and magnificent wilderness areas in their country. This was the period of settlement in the American West, preservation of national parks, and establishment of green city parks.

Female artists
Several women were associated with the Hudson River School. Susie M. Barstow was an avid mountain climber who painted the mountain scenery of the Catskills and the White Mountains. Eliza Pratt Greatorex was an Irish-born painter who was the second woman elected to the National Academy of Design. Julie Hart Beers led sketching expeditions in the Hudson Valley region before moving to a New York City art studio with her daughters. Harriet Cany Peale studied with Rembrandt Peale and Mary Blood Mellen was a student and collaborator with Fitz Henry Lane.

Legacy
Hudson River School art has had minor periods of a resurgence in popularity. The school gained interest after World War I, likely due to nationalist attitudes. Interest declined until the 1960s, and the regrowth of the Hudson Valley has spurred further interest in the movement. Historic house museums and other sites dedicated to the Hudson River School include Olana State Historic Site in Hudson, New York, the Thomas Cole National Historic Site in the town of Catskill, the Newington-Cropsey Foundation's historic house museum, art gallery, and research library in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York, and the John D. Barrow Art Gallery in the village of Skaneateles, New York.

Public collections
One of the largest collections of paintings by artists of the Hudson River School is at the Wadsworth Atheneum in Hartford, Connecticut. Some of the most notable works in the Atheneum's collection are 13 landscapes by Thomas Cole and 11 by Hartford native Frederic Edwin Church. They were personal friends of the museum's founder, Daniel Wadsworth.

Other collections

 * Albany Institute of History & Art in Albany, New York
 * Arnot Art Museum in Elmira, New York
 * Berkshire Museum in Pittsfield, Massachusetts
 * Brooklyn Museum in Brooklyn, New York
 * Corcoran Gallery of Art, in Washington, DC
 * Crystal Bridges Museum, in Bentonville, Arkansas
 * Cummer Museum of Art & Gardens, in Jacksonville, Florida
 * Detroit Institute of Arts in Detroit, Michigan
 * Fenimore Art Museum in Cooperstown, New York
 * Frances Lehman Loeb Art Center, in Poughkeepsie, New York
 * Fruitlands Museum in Harvard, Massachusetts
 * Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, Oklahoma
 * Haggin Museum in Stockton, California
 * Hudson River Museum in Yonkers, New York
 * Hunter Museum of American Art in Chattanooga, Tennessee
 * Louvre Museum in Paris, France
 * Mabee-Gerrer Museum of Art in Shawnee, Oklahoma
 * Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park in Woodstock, Vermont
 * Metropolitan Museum of Art, in Manhattan, New York
 * Munson-Williams-Proctor Arts Institute, in Utica New York
 * Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, in Boston, Massachusetts
 * Museum of White Mountain Art in Jackson, New Hampshire
 * National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC
 * Newark Museum in Newark, New Jersey
 * Newington-Cropsey Foundation in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York
 * New-York Historical Society, in Manhattan, New York
 * Olana State Historic Site, in Hudson, New York
 * St. Johnsbury Athenaeum, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont
 * Thyssen-Bornemisza Museum, in Madrid, Spain
 * The Heckscher Museum of Art, in Huntington, New York
 * Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, in Richmond, Virginia
 * Worcester Art Museum, in Worcester, Massachusetts
 * Wadsworth Atheneum, in Hartford, Connecticut

The Newington-Cropsey Foundation, in their Gallery of Art Building, maintains a research library of Hudson River School art and painters, open to the public by reservation.

Notable artists

 * Albert Bierstadt (1830–1902)
 * William Mason Brown (1828–1898)
 * John William Casilear (1811–1893)
 * Frederic Edwin Church (1826–1900)
 * Thomas Cole (1801–1848)
 * Samuel Colman (1832–1920)
 * Jasper Francis Cropsey (1823–1900)
 * Thomas Doughty (1793–1856)
 * Robert Duncanson (1821–1872)

 * Asher Brown Durand (1796–1886)
 * Sanford Robinson Gifford (1823–1880)
 * James McDougal Hart (1828–1901)
 * William Hart (1823–1894)
 * William Stanley Haseltine (1835–1900)
 * Martin Johnson Heade (1819–1904)
 * Hermann Ottomar Herzog (1832–1932)

 * Thomas Hill (1829–1908)
 * David Johnson (1827–1908)
 * John Frederick Kensett (1816–1872)
 * Jervis McEntee (1828–1891)
 * Thomas Moran (1837–1926)
 * Robert Walter Weir (1803–1889)
 * Worthington Whittredge (1820–1910)
 * Francis Augustus Silva (1835–1886)

title: Hudson River School


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Thomas Cole

Thomas Cole (1 February 1801 – 11 February 1848) was an English-born American artist and the founder of the Hudson River School art movement. Cole is widely regarded as the first significant American landscape painter. He was known for his romantic landscape and history paintings. Influenced by European painters, but with a strong American sensibility, he was prolific throughout his career and worked primarily with oil on canvas. His paintings are typically allegoric and often depict small figures or structures set against moody and evocative natural landscapes. They are usually escapist, framing the New World as a natural eden contrasting with the smog-filled cityscapes of Industrial Revolution-era Britain, in which he grew up. His works, often seen as conservative, criticize the contemporary trends of industrialism, urbanism, and westward expansion.

Early life and education
Born in Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, in 1801, Cole immigrated with his family to the United States in 1818, settling in Steubenville, Ohio. At the age of 22, he moved to Philadelphia and later, in 1825, to Catskill, New York, where he lived with his wife and children until his death in 1848.

Cole found work early on as an engraver. He was largely self-taught as a painter, relying on books and by studying the work of other artists. In 1822, he started working as a portrait painter and later on, gradually shifted his focus to landscape.

Painting
In New York, Cole sold three paintings to George W. Bruen, who subsequently financed a summer trip to the Hudson Valley where the artist produced landscapes featuring the Catskill Mountain House, the famous Kaaterskill Falls, the ruins of Fort Putnam, and two views of Cold Spring. Returning to New York, he displayed five landscapes in the window of William Colman's bookstore; according to the New York Evening Post the two views of Cold Spring were purchased by A. Seton, who lent them to the American Academy of the Fine Arts annual exhibition in 1826. This garnered Cole the attention of John Trumbull, Asher B. Durand, and William Dunlap. Among the paintings was a landscape called View of Fort Ticonderoga from Gelyna. Trumbull was especially impressed with the work of the young artist and sought him out, bought one of his paintings, and put him into contact with a number of his wealthy friends including Robert Gilmor of Baltimore and Daniel Wadsworth of Hartford, who became important patrons of the artist.

Cole was primarily a painter of landscapes, but he also painted allegorical works. The most famous of these are the five-part series, The Course of Empire, which depict the same landscape over generations—from a near state of nature to consummation of empire, and then decline and desolation—now in the collection of the New-York Historical Society and the four-part The Voyage of Life. There are two versions of the latter, the 1840 original at the Munson-Williams-Proctor Arts Institute in Utica, New York and the 1842 replicas with minor alterations at the National Gallery in Washington, D.C. Among Cole's other famous works are The Oxbow (1836), The Notch of the White Mountains, Daniel Boone at his cabin at the Great Osage Lake, and Lake with Dead Trees (1825) which is at the Allen Memorial Art Museum. He also painted The Garden of Eden (1828), with lavish detail of Adam and Eve living amid waterfalls, vivid plants, and deer. In 2014, friezes painted by Cole on the walls of his home, which had been decorated over, were discovered.

Cole influenced his peers in the art movement later termed the Hudson River School, especially Asher B. Durand and Frederic Edwin Church. Church studied with Cole from 1844 to 1846, where he learned Cole's technique of sketching from nature and later developing an idealized, finished composition; Cole's influence is particularly notable in Church's early paintings. Cole spent the years 1829 to 1832 and 1841 to 1842 abroad, mainly in England and Italy.

Other work
Cole is best known for his work as an American landscape artist. In an 1836 article on "American Scenery", he described his complex relationship with the American landscape in esthetic, emotional, and spiritual terms. He also produced thousands of sketches of varying subject matter. Over 2,500 of these sketches can be seen at The Detroit Institute of Arts.,

In 1842, Cole embarked on a Grand Tour of Europe in an effort to study in the style of the Old Masters and to paint its scenery. Most striking to Cole was Europe's tallest active volcano, Mount Etna. Cole was so moved by the volcano's beauty that he produced several sketches and at least six paintings of it. The most famous of these works is A View of Mount Etna from Taormina which is a 78 by oil on canvas. Cole also produced a highly detailed sketch View of Mount Etna which shows a panoramic view of the volcano with the crumbling walls of the ancient Greek theater of Taormina on the far right.

Cole was also a poet and dabbled in architecture, a not uncommon practice at the time when the profession was not so codified. Cole was an entrant in the design competition held in 1838 to create the Ohio Statehouse in Columbus, Ohio. His entry won third place, and many contend that the finished building, a composite of the first, second, and third-place entries, bears a great similarity to Cole's entry.

Personal life
After 1827 Cole maintained a studio at the farm called Cedar Grove, in the town of Catskill, New York. He painted a significant portion of his work in this studio. In 1836, he married Maria Bartow of Catskill, a niece of the owners, and became a year-round resident. Thomas and Maria had five children. Cole's daughter Emily was a botanical artist who worked in watercolor and painted porcelain. Cole's sister, Sarah Cole, was also a landscape painter.

Additionally, Cole held many friendships with important figures in the art world including Daniel Wadsworth, with whom he shared a close friendship. Proof of this friendship can be seen in the letters that were unearthed in the 1980s by the Trinity College Watkinson Library. Cole emotionally wrote Wadsworth in July 1832: "Years have passed away since I saw you & time & the world have undoubtedly wrought many changes in both of us; but the recollection of your friendship... [has] never faded in my mind & I look at those pleasures as 'flowers that never will in other garden grow-'" Thomas Cole died at Catskill on February 11, 1848, of pleurisy. The fourth highest peak in the Catskills is named Thomas Cole Mountain in his honor. Cedar Grove, also known as the Thomas Cole House, was declared a National Historic Site in 1999 and is now open to the public.

title: Thomas Cole


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Jasper Francis Cropsey

Jasper Francis Cropsey (February 18, 1823 – June 22, 1900) was an American architect and artist. He is best known for his Hudson River School landscape paintings.

Early years
Cropsey was born on his father Jacob Rezeau Cropsey's farm in Rossville on Staten Island, New York, the oldest of eight children. As a young boy, Cropsey had recurring periods of poor health. While absent from school, Cropsey taught himself to draw. His early drawings included architectural sketches and landscapes drawn on notepads and in the margins of his schoolbooks.

Career
Cropsey trained as an architect under the tuition of Joseph Trench in the early 1840s, a period in which he was also trained in watercolor painting, instructed by Edward Maury, and took some life drawing courses at the National Academy of Design. He set up his own architecture office in 1843, but began exhibiting his watercolors at the National Academy of Design in 1844. A year later he was elected an associate member and turned exclusively to landscape painting; shortly after he was featured in an exhibition entitled "Italian Compositions".

Cropsey traveled in Europe from 1847 to 1849, visiting England, France, Switzerland, and Italy. He was elected a full member of the Academy in 1851. Cropsey was a personal friend of Henry Tappan, the president of the University of Michigan from 1852 to 1863. At Tappan's invitation, he traveled to Ann Arbor in 1855 and produced two paintings, one of the Detroit Observatory, and a landscape of the campus. He went abroad again in 1856, and resided seven years in London, sending his pictures to the Royal Academy and to the International exhibition of 1862.

Returning home, he opened a studio in New York and specialized in autumnal landscape paintings of the northeastern United States, often idealized and with vivid colors. Cropsey co-founded, with ten fellow artists, the American Society of Painters in Water Colors in 1866. He also made the architectural designs for the stations of the elevated railways in New York.

Hudson River School

Cropsey's interest in architecture continued throughout his life and was a strong influence in his painting, most evident in his precise arrangement and outline of forms. But Cropsey was best known for his lavish use of color and, as a first-generation member from the Hudson River School, painted autumn landscapes that startled viewers with their boldness and brilliance. As an artist, he believed landscapes were the highest art form and that nature was a direct manifestation of God. He also felt a patriotic affiliation with nature and saw his paintings as depicting the rugged and unspoiled qualities of America.

Jasper Cropsey died in anonymity but was rediscovered by galleries and collectors in the 1960s. Today, Cropsey's paintings are found in many major American museums, including the National Gallery of Art, the North Carolina Museum of Art, the Currier Museum of Art, the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, the University of Michigan Museum of Art, the Museum of the Shenandoah Valley, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, the Detroit Institute of Arts, the Timken Museum of Art in San Diego, the Honolulu Museum of Art, the Fine Arts Museum of San Francisco, the Princeton University Art Museum, and the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Works by Cropsey also hang in the White House.

Works
Some of Cropsey's works include Jedburgh Abbey; Pontaine Marshes (1847); Backwoods of America (1857); Richmond Hill (1862); Indian Summer (1866); Greenwood Lake (1875); Lake Nemi in Italy (1879); Old Church at Arreton, Isle of Wight (1880); Ramapo Valley (1881); Autumn on the Hudson (1860): Wawayanda Valley (1883); Spring-time in England (1884); October in Ramapo Valley (1885); Autumn on Lake George, and A Showery Day (1886).

His architectural works included New York City brownstones, the since-demolished 14th Street station for the IRT Sixth Avenue Line in Manhattan, and St. Luke's Episcopal Church on Staten Island.

Some of Cropsey's painting command high prices at auctions. Greenwood Lake (1879) sold at Christie's auction in 2012 for $422,500. Sunset, Camel's Hump, Lake Champlain (1877) sold for $314,500 in 2011.

Collection
Cropsey's home and studio, Ever Rest, in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York, has the largest permanent collection of Cropsey's work, collected by his great-granddaughter Barbara Newington. The collection has been on display since 1977 and the founding of the Newington-Cropsey Foundation.

Personal life
Cropsey married Maria Cooley in May 1847. He had met her during one of his visits to Greenwood Lake after 1843. Maria's father, Isaac P. Cooley, was a justice of the peace from 1837 to 1839 and became a judge over the New Jersey Court of Common Pleas in 1840. Cooley then became a member of New Jersey State House of Assembly from 1860 to 1861. Cooley offered to build Cropsey a studio on his estate but the offer was declined. In 1869 Cropsey built a 29-room Gothic Revival mansion and studio in Warwick, New York that he named Aladdin. As well as living in New York City, he spent part of his time in Warwick until the mansion was sold in 1884.

In 1884 Cropsey first rented then in 1885 bought a house at Hastings-on-Hudson, New York he named Ever Rest. He and Maria had two children: Mary Cortelyou Cropsey Howells (b. September. 5, 1850, d. July 30, 1921) and Lilly Frances Cropsey (b. July 16, 1859, d. February 21, 1889). Cropsey lived at Ever Rest until his death on June 22, 1900, and his wife Maria lived there until she died in 1906, having been married to "Frank" for 54 years.

Legacy and honors

 * The World War II Liberty Ship SS Jasper F. Cropsey was named in his honor.

title: Jasper Francis Cropsey


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Thomas Doughty

Thomas Doughty may refer to:
 * Thomas Doughty (explorer) (1545–1578), English explorer
 * Thomas Doughty (artist) (1793–1856), American artist
 * Thomas Doughty (priest) (1636–1701), Canon of Windsor

title: Thomas Doughty


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Thomas Moran

Thomas Moran (February 12, 1837 – August 25, 1926) was an American painter and printmaker of the Hudson River School in New York whose work often featured the Rocky Mountains. Moran and his family, wife Mary Nimmo Moran and daughter Ruth, took residence in New York where he obtained work as an artist. He was a younger brother of the noted marine artist Edward Moran, with whom he shared a studio. A talented illustrator and exquisite colorist, Thomas Moran was hired as an illustrator at Scribner's Monthly. During the late 1860s, he was appointed the chief illustrator for the magazine, a position that helped him launch his career as one of the premier painters of the American landscape, in particular, the American West.

Moran along with Albert Bierstadt, Thomas Hill, and William Keith are sometimes referred to as belonging to the Rocky Mountain School of landscape painters because of all of the Western landscapes made by this group.

Biography
Moran was born in Bolton, Lancashire, in England, to Mary (née Higson) and Thomas Moran Sr., one of seven children. His father belonged to a family of handloom weavers. He wanted a better future to his family, so they moved to the United States in 1844, when young Thomas was 7 years old. The trip had a life-long impression on Moran, who later created sketches and paintings of the sea. His family first settled in Baltimore, moving afterwards to Kensington, a suburb of Philadelphia.

Moran began his artistic career as a teenage apprentice to the Philadelphia wood-engraving firm Scattergood & Telfer. Moran found the engraving process "tedious" and spent his free time working on his own watercolors. By the mid-1850s he was drawing the firm's illustrations for publication rather than carving them. It was then that he encountered illustrated books that included examples of the work of British artist J. M. W. Turner, who was to be a lasting influence on Moran's work. He also began studying with local painter James Hamilton. Moran traveled to England in 1862 to see Turner's work. From that point on, he emulated Turner's use of color, his choice of landscapes, and was inspired by his explorations in watercolor, a medium for which Turner was particularly well-known.

During the 1870s and 1880s, Moran's designs for wood-engraved illustrations appeared in major magazines and gift oriented publications. Although he mastered multiple printing media including wood-engraving, etching, and lithography, which he learned from his brothers, he received renown for his paintings in oil and in watercolor. The height of his career coincided with the popularity of chromolithography, which Moran used to make color prints of his works, so that they could be widely distributed. He was also one of the leaders of the etching revival in the United States and Great Britain.

Moran was married to Scottish born Mary Nimmo Moran (1842–1899), an etcher and landscape painter. The couple had two daughters and a son. His brothers Edward (1829–1901), John (1831–1902) and Peter (1841–1914), as well as his nephews Edward Percy Moran (1862–1935) and Jean Leon Gerome Ferris (1863–1930) were also active as artists. His brother John was also a pioneer in artistic photography. The two often worked side by side, John photographing the same scene that Thomas was painting. He died in Santa Barbara, California on August 25, 1926.

Yellowstone images
Thomas Moran's vision of the Western landscape was critical to the creation of Yellowstone National Park. In 1871 Dr. Ferdinand Hayden, director of the United States Geological Survey, invited Moran, at the request of American financier Jay Cooke, to join Hayden and his expedition team into the unknown Yellowstone region. Hayden was just about to embark on his arduous journey when he received a letter from Cooke presenting Moran as "an artist of Philadelphia of rare genius". Funded by Cooke (the director of the Northern Pacific Railroad), and Scribner's Monthly, a new illustrated magazine, Moran agreed to join the survey team of the Hayden Geological Survey of 1871 in their exploration of the Yellowstone region. During forty days in the wilderness area, Moran visually documented over 30 different sites and produced a diary of the expedition's progress and daily activities. His sketches, along with photographs produced by survey member William Henry Jackson, captured the nation's attention and helped inspire Congress to establish the Yellowstone region as the first national park in 1872. Moran's paintings along with Jackson's photographs revealed the scale and splendor of the beautiful Yellowstone region where written or oral descriptions failed, persuading President Grant and the US Congress that Yellowstone was to be preserved. Moran's impact on Yellowstone was great, but Yellowstone had a significant influence on the artist, too. His first national recognition as an artist, as well as his first large financial success, resulted from his connection with Yellowstone. He even adopted a new signature: T-Y-M, Thomas "Yellowstone" Moran. Just one year after his introduction to the area, Moran captured the imagination of the American public with his first enormous painting of a far-western natural wonder, The Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone, which the government purchased in 1872 for $10,000. For the next two decades, he published his work in various periodicals and created hundreds of large paintings. Among these, The Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone (1872) and Chasm of the Colorado (1873–74) are exhibited at the Department of the Interior Museum.

Over the next forty years Moran traveled extensively. He went back to Yellowstone with Jackson in 1892. They were invited by Elwood Mead, the state engineer of Wyoming, in preparation for a "Wyoming Exhibition" at the World's Columbian Exposition. Thousands of tourists were now able to visit the park, arriving by the Northern Pacific Railway, and Moran and Jackson were able to take advantage of the tourist facilities, such as a hotel at Mammoth Hot Springs. Moran wrote "After a day at Norris we left for the Grand Canyon where we stayed two days and made a great many photos. I saw so much to sketch that I have determined to return there myself after I have been to the Geyser Basins and the lake and spend a week at work there. It is as glorious in color as ever and I was completely carried away by its magnificence. I think I can paint a better picture of it than the old one after I have made my sketches." Moran sketched many more images of the Canyon on this trip than he had in 1871, including views from the viewpoint named for him on the 1871 trip, "Moran Point". The Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone (1893–1901) is on view at the Smithsonian American Art Museum.

Moran was elected to the membership of the National Academy of Design in 1884 and produced numerous works of art in his senior years.

Painting in the White House
Thomas Moran has a painting exhibited as part of the White House collection. In the photograph depicting President Barack Obama and Israeli President Shimon Peres in the Oval Office it is seen on the wall: the portrait of George Washington is between City of Washington from Beyond the Navy Yard (1833) by George Cooke (on the left) and The Three Tetons (1895) by Thomas Moran (on the right). Official White House photo by Pete Souza.

Legacy
The Thomas Moran House in East Hampton, New York is a National Historic Landmark. Mount Moran in the Grand Teton National Park is named for Moran. His work is held in the collection of the Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Cooper-Hewitt, National Design Museum, the Amon Carter Museum of American Art, R. W. Norton Art Gallery, and the Berkshire Museum in Pittsfield, Massachusetts.

Selected works

 * Nearing Camp. Evening on the Upper Colorado River, Wyoming, 1882. Bolton Museum, UK

title: Thomas Moran


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User talk:Bshankaran

This is a Test!

title: User talk:Bshankaran


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Talk:Countertenor

Welcome to the Countertenor discussion page
Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. For past discussions please see the archives.

Question
Shouldn't there be some other examples from popular music? I immediately think of Claudio Sanchez (Coheed and Cambria), and especially Anthony Green from Circa Survive, who I believe can sing entirely in the contralto range without use of falsetto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.26.180 (talk) 03:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No188.238.15.147 (talk) 03:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Only in classical?
I am skeptical about the unsourced opinion expressed in the list section of this article that the term "countertenor" is only applied within the context of classical music. In fact, this assertion is simply false. Klaus Nomi, for example, is generally considered a countertenor, and while he has recorded quirky interpretations of some opera music, he is generally known for recording popular music. Similarly, I don't know how you'd classify the voice of Antony Hegarty except as a countertenor.

While I suspect a sort of genre bigotry applies to this unsourced opinion statement, which appears to have been used to chop out singers of popular music from this article, I might simply be ignorant as to some particular quirk of definition that makes this interpretation correct. Therefore, I am posting this to the discussion page before making an edit.

In any case, if this assertion, which amounts to nothing more than an unsupported opinion at the moment, is to remain, it should be sourced in some way. Even if sourced, it still leaves the question of what term is to be used for people with the vocal range of Klaus Nomi, Antony Hegarty, and similar singers. Further, one wonders whether the definition of "countertenor" is a particular vocal range, or a genre identification.

muldrake (talk) 20:57, 20 January 2009 (EST)

 * To answer your question, a countertenor is neither a vocal range or genre identification but a voice type. The term countertenor is a classical music term and really shouldn't be used elsewhere as there are certain assumptions inherent in the terms use and definition that would make it falsely translated to other genres. For confirmation see, F. Hodgson: ‘The Countertenor’ (1965), P. Giles: The History and Technique of the Counter-Tenor (1995), and J.B. Steane's "Countertenor" article in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera (1992). As for people like Klaus Nomi, I would assume that music reviewers in newspapers may have used the term in a somewhat non-standard way as their really is no equivalent term in popular music for men who sing primarily in falsetto. Such artists, however, have not been included in scholarly discussions and major publications on the term countertenor. Their inclusion is certainly not found among musicologists and other academic writers to my knowledge.Nrswanson (talk) 02:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I have just removed Michael Jackson from the list, using the "classical" criterion. I imagine therefore that Raine Maida and Greg Pritchard should "go" as well. Opinions, please.voxclamans (talk) 09:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * How a countertenor can be a voice type and not a role? I know for sure many countertenors are Low baritones, even basses, ), using light head voice (or reinforced falsetto) or vocal fold dampening, to reach their highest notes, some are "Male Altos" (contraltino) just men with thinner folds than the high tenors, singing in light mixed voice (full voice with no dampened vibrating tract in folds) in the alto range, but not soprano-mezzo range, usually. I read, though, about the term sopranist, that it actually refers to a men having natural soprano range so a castrati or one with endocrinal problems (no offence intended), thus it would be correct to say a countertenor or "falsettist" sings as sopranist, not "is" a sopranist. If this distinction doesn't apply to the term countertenor, then we can say countertenor is not a a voice type, but many voice type, as "voice type" describes the calibre and length/thickness of vocal folds, not your range.

Antome — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.15.225.191 (talk) 23:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're wrong. Roles are written with a prefered type in mind, but you won't find "Countertenor, King of Naples" anywhere! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

 * I've sung CT with Clint vander Linden, who only denies his sopranist title because there's no demand for it. He trained when young. The physiological guff is just pure ignorance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

 * I think this "countertenors are only classical singers" is absurd, snobbish nonsense. Jimmy Somerville is a perfect example of a counter-tenor, a man known for singing in a falsetto range. The definition is about the vocal range, not the style of music being sung. Tenors can sing pop, jazz or classical - why can't counter-tenors?Gymnophoria (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

 * What about Philip Bailey (Earth, Wind, & Fire)? LizFL (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Could the interpretation have changed with time? If so,this should be documented in the history section. ie I have access to a Will Oakland 78 from about 1910, and it clearly states that he is a countertenner. I am prepared to photograph/link this as verification that the producers of that record clearly felt he was a countertenner. 82.47.136.229 (talk) 12:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

 * It's developed, because church CT was adopted by gospel, and is now quite widely used in acappella, the singers being highly developed to work without support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's the obvious question: was Michael Jackson a countertenor, or not? He hits a D5 six times in Beat It (30 million+ copies sold). That is technically above the normal tenor range. Hard to call that "falsetto". It's a pretty heavy mix. One internet post suggests he's not a countertenor but a "first tenor", meaning he hits a lot of high notes in full voice:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100121235629AAtyDg0

 * So I would say countertenor implies a dark opera sound,

while first tenor is bright pop. Otherwise Michael Jackson would be THE countertenor.

 * Hitting a top note is not a true test of the voice: you have to sing a line in full voice to qualify. However, examining his Munich performance on Youtube, Michael's belting has opened his upper esophagus sufficiently to hit a true CT high note, so it would be incorrect to deny him the tone. However, that's a country mile from performance CT, he doesn't qualify as the world's top. A good example in comparison is the third verse of Pentatonics' version of Halleluyah, where their top tenor moves into acappella CT in harmony with their soprano, in a very similar tonal colour, as well.

In 2016, I was called in by London's Southbank (the Royal Festival Hall) to act as stagecraft mentor in the Beyond the Bassline project, intended to reinforce the mens sections of its Voicelab Community Choir. It allowed them to do big vocal pieces cheaply. The project was led by Dom Sitchbury, with Shlomo writing a new compoaition for them. He's a worldchampion beatboxer, close to the Swingles. During the composition, his inspiration died, so I drew on my experience to givehim acounter-image, and investigated some irregularities in one of the tenors: asking him to sing as he did in the bathroom, a glorious countertenor rang out! He'd never heard of it, so guess who got the lead? This is first-hand testimony that CT is NOT limited to baroque. Please get rid of the pretentiousness, the acappella world has moved on from the Renaissance. Yes, Renaissance is a major domain, but things have moved on, and citing books from 1965 as authorities is just ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Listen and compare / Broken link
I removed the section Listen and compare because it referred to the broken link http://harmony.oakweb.ca/sampler/waschinski_vologeso5.mp3. Without this link the paragraph had nothing to add. Bennor (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Notable twentieth/twenty-first century countertenors removed
I removed the section Notable twentieth/twenty-first century countertenors per discussion at WikiProject Opera. These lists add nothing to the reader's understanding of the term, and it fact, are confusing and misleading e.g. the continuous addition of Michael Jackson. I replaced it it with a See also section with a link to Category:Countertenors Voceditenore (talk) 19:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Contratenor redirects here?
If a Contralto is a range below Alto, then shouldn't a Contratenor be a range below Tenor? If that is so, it should not redirect here, as Countertenor is a range ABOVE tenor, not below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darktangent (talk • contribs) 01:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * You're confusing Countertenor and Contratenor. Can whoever's running the page start getting rid of these nonsenses, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Some remarks about repertoire and famous arias
The section “Repertoire” appears meaningless: a proper operatic repertoire for countertenor has existed but for the last sixty years. As far as the previous period is concerned, countertenors may perform any kinds of parts originally written for women and castrati, but one cannot properly describe them as a countertenor repertoire. After saying that “most of the repertoire that is sung by a countertenor are those written for castrati. Some of the most notable include:”, the section lists, without any apparent criterion (why Eustazio and not Ariodante, for instance?), a series of roles some of which were not actually written for castrati, such as, for instance: Dido and Aeneas’ones, Cherubino, Prince Orlofsky, Nicklausse, besides Oberon, which is undoubtedly a real countertenor role. The list of famous arias reported at the foot of the article seems to be even more senseless: why exactly those arias and not any other ones of the huge number that might as well be cited? I suggest therefore that both sections referred to above should be effaced.--Jeanambr (talk) 23:04, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Having tried to do an edit on this section, I am very glad to find your remarks, since I think you're absolutely right. To be anything like exhaustive, this section would need to be pages long, and there would be endless disagreements between contributors as what should be included. In my opinion, these sections should be deleted. voxclamans (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

 * I have also stumbled across the list of "Operatic Roles", especially because i have been missing Apollo/Death in Venice, which had been mentioned earlier on the page. I would agree to delete the "famous arias" section, because i cannot see the added value of that list.
 * However, i do not agree that the list of "operatic roles" should also be removed. Instead, i would like to propose referring to the reception of these roles/works in music literature, and taking the existence/abundance of such references as a criterion to include (or not) any roles/works in the list.
 * --Wolfbjoe (talk) 11:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I found it too hard for me to define the criterion proposed by Wolfbjoe, I have removed the section "Famous arias" and selected a proper countertenor repertoire (that is a list of parts originally created by or conceived for countertenors).--Jeanambr (talk) 14:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

What clef is normally used today for countertenor parts?
Purcell normally used the alto clef for this (which would make the range figure look like ), but that's historical. The same octave-down treble clef as used for tenors would make sense (, as used for the tenor-falsettist policeman in Shostakovich's The Nose), as would standard treble clef for sopranists, but annoyingly I cannot find a source saying this. Regardless, the bass clef in the present picture seems quite unlikely. Double sharp (talk) 07:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It depends. Many countertenor parts are just mezzosoprano/alto parts therefore the standard treble clef is used (example J. S. Bach, Agnus Dei, Mass in B minor (BWV 232) . However if the part is in it´s main parts just a tenor part with some extra high notes, the octave-down treble clef is used (example Olim lacus colueram, Orff, Carmina Burana). As you can think it is also a matter of readability.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

BTW the range of a countertenor in alto clef would be  and in ordinary treble clef
 * Well I suppose standard treble clef would make more sense then, since most of the standard repertoire would indeed be those historical mezzo/alto parts. So I suppose we could use that in the range picture, and note that octave-down treble clef could also be used in cases that are basically tenor parts that go so high as to force the use of falsetto. (BTW, I had the alto-clef image right the first time: the middle line is middle C.) Double sharp (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Voice change and comparison to female voice
nothing is mentioned about voice change in puberty. it's obvious that kids have similar voice whether they are boys or girls, but in puberty male voice drops. it's also obvious that males that end up having a high countertenor voice have had just a slight voice change in puberty. For example Justin Bieber sounded like a girl when he was 14 (in songs such as "Baby" and "One Time") but not anymore because of puberty. Chris Colfer somehow avoided voice change and equals mezzosoprano. this should be explained in the article and having this explanation does not paint countertenors as such freaks after all although countertenor voice is rare. in the article it should be mentioned that the most common or typical countertenor voice is actually slightly lower than contralto (a half step lower). For example Ronnie James Dio had a slightly lower voice than Cher (contralto). Cher has a slightly brighter and lighter voice and she can make A4 and higher notes ring better whereas Dio doesn't have as much of the bright ringing quality that females such as Cher typically have. The voices are eerily similar nevermind Dio's rasp, but Cher's is a half step higher. --93.106.179.195 (talk) 10:19, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually countertenors often have a baritone chest register, which is hardly a slight voice change. ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 14:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I was guided in puberty by Brenda, Sir Geraint Evans' lady wife, and passed teaching on to two colleagues in the wreckage of Alleyn's School Choir: one, David Roblou, went on to become "the world's top baroque voice coach of his generation", per Catherine Bott. It had enjoyed a thriving relationship with Benjamin Britten until 1955, when a safeguarding issue arose regarding the 11 year old David Hemmings in the première run of The Turn of the Screw. As a result, the music teacher was under a cloud, not helped by his traditionalist approach making him refuse to countenance early rock: to this I'd add some transvestite influences trying to blend the School's Shakespearean traditions (female roles being played by boys, part of the School's origins) with Gilbert and Sullivan... The School had a tradition of one one-week run a term, with the School taking one on, the Pupils' Company The Bear Pit one, and the Music Department one. The Bear Pit was a sizeable crossover with the National Youth Theatre at that time, as the School had started the movement in 1955. However, as I say, with only the wreckage of a Choir, the annual operetta became impossible.
 * Brenda's guidance to me was that register is mostly dependant on resonance, and that my voice would be my choice. After experimenting, I not only took the lot, but learned how to move between registers, making me instantly recognisable because I shift. My tessitura is bass baritone, but my tenor's been picked by Ben Parry in a crowd of Europe's best acappella singers, and I've sung with Clint van der Linden in CT: I only have the lower half, he has the lot.
 * There is huge confusion between whistle tones, falsetto, head voice, and harmonic tones, and all of these are different. Let me start with the latter: any plucked string has several harmonics in it, which sound if the string is stopped at certain points: the halfway point is used for an octave, the one-third for a fifth, a fact used by harp players to get an enharmonic tune. The voice does the same, and that's most clearly seen in Ari Kaplan's Youtube teaching on bottom bass training. Whistle tones are the same, in female voices, but are not applicable to men. The true sung tones run from projected head voice, through head, neck, upper chest, lower chest, torso, legs and projected legs. These are the resonant areas I use for each, corresponding to top soprano, low soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass, bottom bass, although there is overlap. If I'm singing tenor, I won't warm up my thorax or legs. Falsetto is a forced head voice, using overpressure in the same way a penny-whistle player gets his upper register. Let me repeat: none of these are the same. I know what theoreticians say, let a performers say.
 * Although Alfred Deller was the first of the modern CTs, he had very little influence on the modern school, because he was too recherché performing: iirc, the most he did were one or two masterclasses. David Munrow inspired my generation of Early Music performers in the early 1970s, we were left to fend for ourselves, self-taught: there was a very influential pub session in Southwark Market. If I'd give any credit, it's to Joel Cohen's Boston Camerata. What was significant was the HIP movement, which rejected the modern composers, in favour of true research. We were fortunate to have recordings of the last Vatican castrato, Mustafa, and one or two of his peers, indicating that the first wave of early instruments originating in Germany in the 1930s were at best an approximation based on modern practice, and extensive analysis of surviving originals gave us better copies. This then informed voice (and information about the vocal villainies of the 18th Century), often moving us away from Cathedral Choral towards a more humane sound. A major instance of this was the input of Dame Emma Kirkby and Catherine Bott in the upper voice, eliminating the previously insistent colloratura wobble: this equally informed the men. If you look at copies of Early Music from the day, you'll see a copious crossover from vernacular styles, too, which started with Jeremy Barlow's reprint of Playford's Dancing Master, and was then pursued in the same dynamic in work around Gay's The Beggar's Opera and West Gallery hymnody: I'm one of Maddy Prior's backing singers working in this in her Carnival Band format. Mozart's accessible precisely because he only had basic singers available to him.
 * Technically, to access the very peak of my head resonance, I open my gullet very wide indeed, to stop any temptation to drop into head voice tenor, and maximize the acoustic straight from my vocal cords. This is partly conditioned by attempting to keep as much of my treble as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.39.250 (talk) 22:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

high head voice
What's that? There certainly isn't an entry in Wikipedia for it. Would that be somewhere in the citation?
 * I sent it to Head_voice
 * Kortoso (talk) 11:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Potential edit warring on the voice types articles
See Talk:Bass_(voice_type). Kuulopuhe (talk) 13:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Countertenor