text:
User talk:Robert Merkel/archive 1

Thanks for checking the Idanha picture. Still working out the bugs.. looks tiny on my screen am adjusting as I go along. Dmsar 08:23 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I saw your adjustment to my entry on the clitoris.

I'm very new to Wiki, so I appreciate the assist. I realize I editorialized a bit in the text on the clitoridectomy, but don't you think that chopping off the tip is a highly barbaric act that deserves a little comment? Even as a newbie, I *had* to go in and edit the inaccuracies about the "small knob-like" clitoris, when in fact the organ is much larger in the interior, and of much greater significance than commonly believed. So I'm grateful that your subsequent edit blessed my more detailed description. Is there a policy about editorializing, or is the group-effort supposed to leaven the articles to the proper level of "objectivity"? - Gjalexei p.s. I also just checked the clitoridectomy article ... you were absolutely right to edit my stuff down in the Clitoris article, given the very thorough handling of the subject in the clitoridectomy entry!!

Welcome to Wikipedia! I appreciate your gentle handling of the clitoris and your NPOV treatment of evolution.

You might want to vote on the fate of subpages at Talk:Characters (The Simpsons) --Ed Poor

Thanks for your clarification on the single lens reflex camera article. :-) --KQ

Hey Robert, thanks for your fast feedback on Kitsch. I know it looks like a dictionary definition now, but with some work (see the talk page) it can become a full-fledged reference work. Defining "Kitsch" is like defining "Art", a dictionary definition doesn't do it justice. In fact, the best synonym I've seen for "Kitsch" is "Anti-Art". It's a meta-cultural phenomenon, not just a word... :0) Steve Rapaport

Robert, as a major contributor to it, you may want to look at Gough Whitlam and run your eye over the changes I just made. It was already a very good article. I think it's even better now, but ... well, see for yourself. BTW, your para describing Whitlam's more recent status is wonderful writing: lively, vivid, and yet non-partisan. Well done! Tannin

Hi Robert, excuse my slow reply. Take a look at the Whitlam page (relatively small change, semi-revert) and more particularly the talk. Tannin

Isis, you didn't mention that you and Guzzler were having a edit cold war (which just got a little nasty, judging by the edit by Guzzler I just reverted), over the contents of K. Kay Shearin, which I gather is, well, you. It might have been worth pointing out. --Robert Merkel 08:25 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if I misled you by not saying anything, but I didn't see the situation as either "an edit war" or pertinent to the issue of his offensive name. The information the guzzler added to K. Kay Shearin was partly accurate, and when I corrected his misstatements and added my side of if, he didn't quibble about those facts.  I did see it as his "acting out" -- putting info in the article about me he thought would make me uncomfortable because I was criticizing his conduct in this forum -- but I thought that just meant I was making it too hot for him on the issue, so he was getting personal to try to distract me from that, and I'm contrarian enough not to be distracted that easily. -- isis 05:34 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Rob thank you for your contributation to the Herald-Sun page - i'm hoping to find more information about The Sun News Pictorial so it can have as much detail about it in the article as The Herald - the other of the two papers that merged to form the H-S.

PMelvilleAustin 01:46 Jan 21, 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I liked your comments on Content advisory, could you please add something similar to the Content Advisory page, that parents can read? MB 13:37 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

_______________________________ Can Anybody Tell Me Why This Article Shouldn't Be Moved To "new product development"?

By the way, whomever is writing these marketing articles, they're a promising start. --Robert Merkel 04:09 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You can change it to lower case if you prefer. The only reason The Caps Are There is that I have written more than 30 articles in 4 days and I am getting sloppy

user:mydogategodshat

____________________________________ Could the person working on the marketing articles please apply some ordering and weeding to the "see also" links? There's too many, and there in seemingly random order. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the topic to do so. --Robert Merkel 04:20 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The criteria Ive used in chosing what see also links to use are the links must be closely related to the article topic and should be useful for further navigation. I ask myself what might I be interested in viewing after reading this article. The one exception is the root marketing page. Because it is a root page for the whole topic of marketing, I put all of the marketing articles links on that page. As for the order, you are quite right, I could spend some time putting them in alphebetical order or order of importance, but I donnt have time for that yet. I figure I have about another hundred articles to write to get this encyclopedia up to a level that it ussable for university undergrads   user:mydogategodshat

__________________________________ Some questions:

 * Who first coined the term "personal marketing orientation", and when? What were the idea's antecedents?  Who are its major proponents?  What criticisms are there of the idea?

In my edit, I placed some of the article's claims in the context that the theory claims certain things to be the case, rather than asserting that they are the case. Everyone else may be an individual, but I'm not ;) --Robert Merkel 04:30 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure who coined the term. My first notice of it was in Ward Hanson's textbook "Principles of Internet Marketing", 2000 (1st edition)

As for your correction, it was enlightening. It never crossed my mind that there might be some people that would prefer to have their available choices limited to a few standardized products rather than getting exactly what they wanted. user:mydogategodshat

 * In that specific case, you're right. It concerned me that the article was asserting things as facts that did, admittedly, sound plausible, but may not in fact be true.  Lots of plausible suggestions get made all the time that turn out to be completely wrong.  The easiest (and IMHO correct) thing to do clarify that the theory assumed things to be true without the Wikipedia actually making the claim that it was true.  Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy is very clear - the Wikipedia should state facts (including facts like "this theory states that x, y and z are true") but should not editorially state opinions.

 * More broadly, the point I'd make is that marketing seems to me (as I've stated, I know little about the field) to be something of an applied social science. If so, is there competing theories and ideas, and research to determine which ideas are most accurate and useful?  Or am I overestimating the development of "marketing theory" as an academic discipline?

 * I hope my comments are helpful. I do appreciate your efforts to improve this part of the 'pedia! --Robert Merkel 14:02 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

_______

Ill try to be more neutral in the future.

As for your insertion "Mass production has traditionally depended on the standardisation of goods sold", it is no doubt true that mass production techniques like assembly lines do require standardized outputs in order to be cost efficient, but I dont see what the standardization requirements of an assembly line have to do with the personal marketing orientation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be engaging in a reverse causality. The article deals with how the individualization of goods depends on the production processes available at the time. But your insertion deals with how production processes depends on the goods. user:mydogategodshat ---

- Hi. Sorry, I meant to reply earlier.

I agree that the Crime in Sydney article does need further work, but then again so do many other articles here ( eg World War I, to name one example off the top of my head). I'm glad you didn't take offence over my rewriting that disclaimer (well not too much anyway!).

I respectfully disagree that the article is as minor as you seem to feel it is -it does seem to me to be more important than an article on a Simpsons character. This is all about stuff that goes back 200+ years now.

Hope all is well in Melbourne ( I was born in that city myself, if that's any consolation!) Arno 10:31 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * My point is very simple. Sydney's violent crime rate is not that high by world standards, and the place isn't likely to break out into race riots like you'd find in India or Indonesia any time soon.  Having an extensive discussion of single examples of (very nasty) race-related crimes in the main article is going to give a highly misleading impression of Sydney.

 * I agree an excellent article could be written about the criminal history of Sydney, and would be a very valuable addition to the wikipedia, Taking up half the Sydney article with a perspective-free discussion of crime in Sydney does both the topic of "crime in Sydney" and the wider discussion of "Sydney" a power of no good.

 * I would also argue that ideally, to give a balanced perspective, similar articles should be written about crime in New York (the Mafia), crime in London (the East End gans and whatnot), crime in Chicago (from Al Capone on), crime in Los Angeles (Cripps and the Bloods, for instance), crime in Johannesburg, crime in Japan (the yakuza), crime in China (the government) and so on.... --Robert Merkel 13:32 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Feel free to do just that, or to make a start on it! That NY one would be interesting - you could start with the gangs of New York of the 19th century ( and there were a lot of these feral characters around) and then move on to the rise of the Mafia in the 20th.

 * I concur that the Sydney one could use more work - its had its own 19th century gangs, or pushes, such as the Cabbage Tree Push and the Town Hall Push, all stuff that should be mentioned on that page.

Arno 09:06 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I thought you might be interested in the opinion poll going on now at Talk:Clitoris. MB 18:08 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind, but I moved your "vote" to a new opinion catagory I have created, b/c your comment did no correspond with the opinion you were agreeing with. MB 23:23 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * No problem. I tried to pick the closest rather than create a new category.  By the way, I find it slightly strange that people are getting so worked up about what I'd have to say is a fairly innocuous and not at all "porny" photograph (in its current form, anyway), and, from the other perspective, why shifting the picture to a place where somebody has to explicitly choose to click on is equivalent to the sky falling in.  --Robert Merkel 05:27 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Nice work, Robert. Tannin

Robert, I don't agree with you about the tattoo pics not homing in on the tattoo sufficiently. I wanted not just a pic of a tattoo in close-up but to show it in context i.e. with some of the person shown (my 19 year-old son). On my screen (a CRT at 1024 by 768 resolution) the two pics are very clear and sharp so I'm puzzled that you find them too small, 250 pixels wide is just right for a portrait-format pic. Are you using a resolution above mine? The pic might then look small. The bottom line is that I don't intend to alter those pics but, in the spirit of Wikipedia, you are welcome to do so. Best Wishes Adrian Pingstone 14:09 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. I just think it would be nice if one of the photos showed a tatto o in detail, but I'm not too fussed about it. By the way, I've queried the copyright status of the Me262 pics you prepared...--Robert Merkel 15:42 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * No problem, I'll add a detailed view of a tattoo soon.
 * Yes, I agree that the Messerschmitt Me 262 copyright notice is baffling, by all means remove my pic (the coloured one).
 * Adrian Pingstone 16:04 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I think the tattoo matter is sorted. I've added a close up of the eagle so the reader now gets both longshots and a closeup. Also I've made the three pics into one unit so that text can never get between them (a trick I'm using increasingly). Hope you like the look of the page.
 * Adrian Pingstone 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Re: baseball diagram, see the talk page for that article -- User:GWO

BTW, the USAF Museum is not technically part of the US govt, and if you poke around their website, you'll see they emphasize this and explicitly claim copyright; presumably that's also why they stamp their name on the pic. I looked at them a while back and decided against using any of their photos. Somebody just needs to go visit the &%*#! museum and take all the same pics themselves. :-) Stan 05:37, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * Shite. Should have paid more attention.  I'll delete the picture from the article (if you haven't already) and put a request up on requested images.  Bloody ridiculous.  --Robert Merkel 09:30, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd already read it before writing my answer, and I am sure I was objective, if not, I would not have written the article. Please take a look to Anu and read the theory of Mr. Sitchin, and tell me if that accomplishes the NPOV policy (I've not written that nonsense). I don't remember now the name of the article, but there is another one concerning Bloody Mary and her persecution of Protestants that, as I think, doesn't accomplish that policy too. If I find the article, I'm going to leave its name here. Anyhow, any problem, just tell me. If I'm not objective... well, I'm not the exception, but as I've written NPOVs are very personal POVs. Thanks for your message. The Warlock 05:52, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * The article concerning Bloody Mary (not Mary I of England) is Witchcraft Act. You can be completely sure that I'm not a Catholic, but I think the comment is not objective but full of subjectivity. I left a comment on the talk page of Anu, I didn't on the other, but my opinion is the same. And Wikipedia has plenty of comments that lack of a NPOV. If I am the one that is going to be criticised fot writing that, good, go on. I insist that I was objective, but that opinion is just a POV. If I've reacted in this way is because I consider unjust the critic, especially because it was written elliptically that I don't know what I was talking about, and as I said, when I don't know, I just don't talk. Thanks for your time. The Warlock 06:14, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi, Robert: I have never asserted that gods or demons exist. I don't believe in religions since a long time ago, but I'm interested in the belief of so many people (mainly Christians) in them. I've found and empty link on such a topic and tried to write a good article on THAT BELIEF, not mine. It is true, in current times many Christians don't believe in demons, but it does not concern Christian theology or demonology, just their own POVs. I think that asserting the existence of deities, good or evil, is not a NPOV, but the links are there, and lots of articles on God and its (philosophically God is it, not he) "infinite goodness", the "virginity" of Mary, etc. If my article does not fit with the NPOV policy, those others do not too, as I understand. I didn't want to offend you, I hope you did not get angry, but I hope the same about your like for good articles referring to mine, if it is not good... well, it's not a NPOV but a POV... I think. If you think you can improve the article... It's all yours, not mine anymore. But please take into account that when speaking on "Demon possession in medicine" I denied the possibility of such a thing, and explained the pshychiatric (and I think more sceptic) POV on the subject. Paranormal phenomena are not related to demons or deities, and is has been scientifically proved. If you think I could believe in demon possession, please read again the medical POV on the subject, I laugh when hearing of demon possessed people. I just explained what is demon possession in Christianity and other cultures, what happens if the insane does not believe in science but in religion, and what does medicine think about all the stuff. The problem is that the religious stuff exists and most people believe in one creed or another... if not, just read about the Neopagans and their revival of witchcraft... I hope this is the beginning of a good understanding, being that we don't think too different on the subject (please read what I've written on religions on my personal page, thanks) :-) The Warlock 08:07, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * Thank you for taking the time to reply, and rest assured that I'm not offended, and I hope that I have not offended you. Perhaps my problem with the article is perhaps not so much the viewpoint, more the fact that the article needs a little copyediting to be easier to understand.  Anyway, like I said, I'll have a go at it on the weekend, and see if you like the result. --Robert Merkel 09:30, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Main Page
Please only list items on the Main Page that have been updated to reflect the current event. How is a person going to know why a page is listed when there is no mention in the article (and no current date links)? This is a clearly stated guideline at Selected Articles on the Main Page. --mav 19:58, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Zanmium, have you tried to contact Rozwell about the images he has uploaded inappropriately and repeatedly? --Robert Merkel 06:04, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes, I said to him that if he didn't stop, I'd ban him. He only uploaded one more image after that, seconds later. He's had no response. Has he uploaded later after I started deleting? I haven't check yet. - user:zanimum
 * I deleted some stuff as well, but I'm not sure whether that was before or after you did. In any case, he appears to be gone for now.  --Robert Merkel 23:37, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Lets only hope. - user:zanimum

Hello. Thanks for your comments on my talk page. I've replied there. As you can see, I'm not entirely convinced. But I am starting to have doubts, so feel free to keep trying... :) -- Oliver P. 17:26, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :-) BL 11:26, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The photos of the Me 262 you removed I added. They were taken from http://www.luftwaffepics.com/, with full permission from the person in question. It appears they have been removed completely from the wiki however, so I cannot easily restore the edit. Unless you can offer real evidence that I should not use them, I'm going to re-upload it. User:Maury Markowitz

 * There were two Me262 photos, a black and white one, and a colour one. The colour image was traced back through a German site who appeared to have ripped it off, without permission, from a Russian site, whose copyright notice did not allow reuse.

 * The black and white one had no copyright attribution at all.

 * If you've got permission to upload the black and white one, that's all well and good, but where did he get the images from? I suppose if it's a WWII Luftwaffe photo we could surely argue fair use...--Robert Merkel 23:49, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Is the diagram of a hockey rink here of any use to you? It's a North American one. It does use a term I've never heard before -- restraining circle. It's normally called the face-off circle. The face-off spots are a little heterodox, too, but that's not all that important. Trontonian

 * Sure, that's considerably clearer than most I've seen before.. --Robert Merkel 03:26, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * It just occurred to me that the face-off spots are more commonly called dots, too.

Don't know if you plan on contributing to Melbourne at all, but can you check the talk page and let me know if you agree with me? Cheers, Neolux 19:15, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Would it be better to have Corby's page at Fernando Corbató or Fernando J. Corbató? (Clearly there should be a redirect from the other form, whatever we pick.) Noel 19:23, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * It doesn't really worry me. Generally we have name articles without the middle initial, but we make exceptions for Arthur C. Clarke and George W. Bush, for instance.  --Robert Merkel 22:50, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * I finally got around to doing something about this. I checked with Google first, and the full FJC form is by a good margin (3:1) more common, and I know he prefers the full form, so I did the move. I also added redirects from the non-accented form, in case someone does a search for it with ordinary characters. Noel 20:25, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Robert, please visit the White Australia Policy talk page and read my comment. Tell me if you agree or not. Cheers, Dr Adam Carr

I have done a totally NPOV upgrade of Melbourne Football Club, a model of its kind :) Go Dees Dr Adam Carr 12:22, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Press release
Editing on the meta version of the press release has effectively stopped. Please be advised that we may be distributing the non-English press releases as early as Monday 29 September. The English version will be distributed the week after in order to smooth out the load on our servers. --maveric149 22 Sep 2003

Hi Robert

Re: Battle of Normandy. I appreciate your contributions to this. I was actually writing from a British/Canadian perspective, where Normandy is undoubtedly the best-known land battle of WW2. I'd rather not make reference to the US more than I have to, to counteract the mistaken perception that D-Day was primarily a US operation. Incidentally, what would you say was the best-known WW2 battle from an Australian perspective?

Thanks again.

DJ Clayworth 13:08, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * I'd have to say that from where I'm standing, the ones that were considered most important were the ones where it was Australia's (or at least Australian soldiers) arse on the line. Therefore the Kokoda Track, maybe the battle of Milne Bay, and El Alamein (the Rats of Tobruk).  Also, the air raids on Darwin were regarded as highly significant to Australians as it's the only attacks on Australian soil by an enemy force. --Robert Merkel 13:19, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for that. But do you mind if I revert the Normandy article? I think taking the English-speaking world as a whole, Normandy is still probably the best known. Alamein would be well-known in Britain, but pretty much unknown in the US. Wasn't there also a substantial Australian presence in the Far East?

I also notice that Kokoda Track and Milne Bay don't have Wiki entries. Maybe There's an opportunity there.

DJ Clayworth 13:33, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * As to the Kokoda track and Milne Bay, they were part of the Far East campaign (immediately to the north of the Australian mainland. At some stage, I will look at adding articles for them if somebody else doesn't.  As to the point of discussion in the article, I think trying to categorize one battle as the "best-known" is probably a pointless exercise.  The Normandy invasion certainly was one of those few. --Robert Merkel 13:48, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * I'll go for 'one of'. DJ Clayworth 14:19, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Robert: I have now completed my work on the Prime Ministers of Australia series. I have turned all the stubs into articles, written several articles from scratch, and edited, either lightly or heavily, the existing articles on the recent PMs. I cut a lot of extraneous political commentary from John Howard: I didn't look to see who I have offended. I would welcome your comments on the whole series. Adam 16:53, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Self-appointed Wikipedia quality control experts
Dear Mr. Merkel: Recently, my assistant was doing her monthly Google search on me to see if there have been any recent reviews on my books and recordings, as well any recent discussion on my work in various guitar and jazz chat sites. (I do like to stay on top of these things and respond wherever possible.) She came across a rather mildly provocative hit with your name attached to it and it read:

"Has this guy done anything to warrant a Wikipedia entry? LexisNexis gives me nothing, and google just gives me the label's website and not much else."

At the risk of seeming overly sensitive, please allow me, with all due humility, and as someone who is reminded every day that everything I have has been given to me, to supply you with an ABRIDGED bio. If you still question whether or not I am worthy of inclusion, you have my complete permission to delete my name (or see that it is).

Steve Rochinski was born in Washington, D.C. on January 20, 1954. A self-taught guitarist, he has worked with the Candoli Brothers,Tim Hagans, Pat Harbison, Gary Foster, Hank Marr, Brad Goode, Joe Hunt, Chuck Redd, Richard Evans, Tal Farlow, Attila Zoller, Jimmy Raney, Bob Freedman, Tony Tillman, as well as numerous studio, concert, club date and international clinic appearances. Steve has received numerous grants and awards including a prestigious 1993 Jazz Fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts for private study with jazz guitar legend Tal Farlow. Upon leaving the musicians road life in 1984, he became Professor at the world-renowned Berklee College of Music (Magna Cum Laude, 1980) where, in addition to curriculum development, he teaches all levels of harmony (author of Harmony 4, the last in a series of the Core harmony curriculum), ear training, ensembles, and improvisation labs. Steve has taught and influenced some of the most successful names in contemporary jazz and pop music. He is also considered to be one of the worlds leading experts and consultants in the field of contemporory jazz and popular harmonic common practice and pedagogy. He is the author of the award winning "The Jazz Style of Tal Farlow: The Elements of Bebop Guitar" and "The Motivic Basis for Jazz Guitar Improvisation" (Hal Leonard Corp.) He is an artist endorser for Evans Custom Amplifiers. In 1995, Steve released his critically acclaimed debut CD “Until Further Notice…” (LineOut Music/Northcountry Dist.) He currently records for Jardis Records, Germany’s leading jazz guitar label. His releases include “A Bird In The Hand”(JRCD9922) and “Otherwise” (JRCD20033). (www.jardis.de). Steve's books and recordings continue to generate healthy international sales and his music has been featured on prominent jazz radio programs throughout the world In November 2001, Steve's life and career was featured in the 7th Anniversary issue of the internationally renowned magazine for jazz guitar fans, "Just Jazz Guitar"(No.29;November 2001). Steve will be profiled in the next edition of the book "The Jazz Guitar: Its Evolution, Players, And Personalities Since 1900 by Maurice Summerfield (Ashley Mark Publishing).     He remains active as a performer and clinician and is planning several recording projects including a release with his long-time friend and musical colleague, Blue Note recording artist, trumpeter Tim Hagans .     He currently resides in Brookline, Massachusetts with his wife and two children where he is currently writing music and books.     (Reviews, books, radio playlists, and recordings will be gladly supplied upon request.)

Mr. Merkle, I would like to think that your reaction was to an initial entry into Wikipedia that was incomplete and somewhat confused in terms of what would have been relevant and appropriate background. This was an error for which I accept full responsibility. If you feel this information is worthy of inclusion, please pass it along so that it can be properly presented.

The next time you find the urge to well up with indignation at an entry consider asking yourself this question:

"What have I done to warrant such a response to this silly Wikipedia entry that, in the grand scheme of life in a sad and confused world, should mean relatively little to me? LetmeNixthis feeling and get on with worrying about my own worldly relevance and how I can generate public approval for my contributions to making this life a bit more bearable for all who are interested.

Humbly yours,

Steve Rochinski

title: User talk:Robert Merkel/archive 1


text:
Nothing Gold Can Stay (album)

Nothing Gold Can Stay is the debut studio album by American rock band New Found Glory, released on May 1, 1999, through independent record label Eulogy Recordings. At the time, the band was then named "A New Found Glory", but later dropped the indefinite article "A" due to some fans struggling to find their records in stores. The original pressings of the album contained samplings from several films including The Outsiders (1983), Weird Science (1985), and That Thing You Do! (1996), as well as Robert Frost's poem "Nothing Gold Can Stay", after which the album is named.

On the strength of the release, Richard Reines, co-founder of Drive-Thru Records, signed the band after paying Eulogy a $5,000 license fee in order to re-release the album on October 19, 1999. Propelled by debut single "Hit or Miss", Nothing Gold Can Stay sold in excess of 300,000 copies. The record was responsible for breaking the band in the United States and has been noted for its influence on contemporary pop punk music.

Background and recording
Following the band's underground success with the release of debut EP It's All About the Girls (1997), they soon caught the attention of independent label Eulogy Recordings, and the quintet subsequently signed in order to increase distribution of their music. The album was recorded on a low budget with the members having to self-fund the sessions. Jordan Pundik recalls, "I was working in Walgreens, I remember borrowing money off my sister to pay for the recording and everybody getting on me for not throwing in enough." Chad Gilbert also said that the album "wasn't recorded too well", but also praised its rawness by adding, "It sounds more real than a lot of other records". Pundik worked alongside primary lyricist and rhythm guitarist Steve Klein to pen the tracks. "When me and Steve would work on the songs, he'd come and pick me up in his punk-rock station wagon, with stickers all over the back. It didn't have a stereo, just a boombox. We'd sit in his room at his parents' house, and we'd work on lyrics and melodies with sheets of paper everywhere". Pundik also said that a five-year relationship during high school inspired the lyrics to "Winter of '95". "I was with her for 5 years, she was the only thing I knew, so that played a big part. I remember listening to a Gameface record on vinyl, but was writing my own lyrics for the song at the same time in my head". Gilbert reflects on the album as "100 percent, without a doubt, the most honest, simple, pure record. We were just a bunch of kids who grew up in the suburbs. We never expected to leave Florida, we were just making a record we could play locally and sell to friends. Then, eventually, it took us so many other places".

Reception and legacy
Upon release in 1999, Nothing Gold Can Stay received positive reviews. Mike DaRonco of AllMusic gave the album a positive four star review. He wrote, "With an abundance of Lifetime/Promise Ring rip-off bands crawling out from under every suburban nook and cranny, A New Found Glory pull out all the right hooks and harmonies. Reminiscing about the days of walking to the beach, holding hands with a loved one and loudly singing Michael Jackson's "Thriller". But, they're also about trying to pick up the pieces of a shattered relationship by writing a song about it. Just sit back, listen, and relate to their heartfelt days of love lost and found." Michael Dabaie of College Music Journal awarded the album a "super" four-star rating. Describing the sound as "abrasive yet extremely catchy" he also opined that the album was "pop-punk with substance and a stiff backbone."

A decade after the album's release, Brendan Manley of Alternative Press covered the album in two separate articles for the magazine. Discussing the album in the "10 Classic Albums of '99" feature, he wrote, "Like its title implies, Nothing Gold Can Stay is the sonic transcript of a glorious, fleeting time for NFG, and for pop-punk. But just as gold never loses its luster, it's only fitting that 10 years later, Nothing Gold Can Stay still shines". Later, during a separate article covering the band's history, Manley noted their lasting influence on modern pop-punk music; "New Found Glory are still at the forefront of the scene they helped create". Gabe Saporta of Midtown also said of Nothing Gold Can Stay; "The record has so many little quirks - so many things that made you feel like [NFG] were friends of yours, who were fucking around in the studio and happened to create something magical". Also, when Jared Logan was producing Fall Out Boy's debut album, he asked bassist Pete Wentz what sound the band desired for recording. Wentz responded by "handing over the first two New Found Glory records".

Track listing
All lyrics written by Steve Klein and Jordan Pundik; music composed by New Found Glory.

Personnel
The following people contributed to Nothing Gold Can Stay:

 * New Found Glory
 * Jordan Pundik - lead vocals, lyrics
 * Chad Gilbert - lead guitar, backing vocals, composer
 * Steve Klein - rhythm guitar, lyrics
 * Ian Grushka - bass guitar
 * Cyrus Bolooki - drums, percussion

 * Additional musicians
 * Chris Carrabba – backing vocals
 * The Boofins on the Side Crew – backing vocals
 * Marisa Browne – piano ("Broken Sound", "The Goodbye Song")

 * Production
 * A New Found Glory - producer, recording
 * Jeremy Du Bois - engineering

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Nothing Gold Can Stay (album)


text:
Talk:Hypothetico-deductive model

Please add new comments to the foot of the talk page to preserve the time order of these posts.

Early talk posts
This statement in the current article is incorrect:

 * "This problem is related to the problem of induction, and arrises because it is logically invalid to infer a general case – a hypothesis – from any series of specific observations."

 * Induction cannot be "logically invalid" because induction is non-logical it has nothing to do with logic which is deductive by definition. B 23:10, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't know what non-logical means, certainly induction is a form of reasoning and thus can meaningfully be either (deductively) valid or invalid. Induction happens to be invalid. In any case, you need a source for the claim of your own. --Deleet (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

-- Garr. I've gone on a wild goose chase, around and around, and back to the start. Indeed, Bayes does solve this "paradox" which is no paradox.

We solve it by saying "certainly if you show me a non-white thing, and I see it is not a swan, it actually does increase the validity of my hypothesis, just that a swan being white inncreases the validity a lot, and a non-white thing being a non-swan increases the validity of my hypothesis an almost-insignificant amount."

Read the article on the Raven paradox to see how easily it's solved using modern logical and statistical method. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhiloVivero (talk • contribs)

 * Did you take a look at the talk page for raven paradox? Banno 11:34, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

I would submit that this "paradox" is poorly based on the Method in the first place- at least for the scientifically minded. Philosophers may decide to debate other aspects of the method that are decidely less used. For scientific usage, a hypothesis is: hy·poth·e·sis  Audio pronunciation of "hypothesis" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (h-pth-ss) n. pl. hy·poth·e·ses (-sz)

1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)

Thus, "All Swans are white" is not a hypotheis. It is a statment of generality of observations. Statements or obbservations alone do not provide a structure for prediction and experimentation - i.e. an Method. With out a method, we are aimless. No? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.198.177.222 (talk • contribs)

-- The statement "all swans are white" is only logically equivalent to "all non-white things are not swans" if it is a double implication, i.e.

Swan <-> White is equivalent to NOT(Swan) <-> NOT(White).

So if your hypothesis is

Swan -> White (which I think is more common), this is actually not equivalent to Not(Swan) -> Not(White).

An observation of a non-white thing will not (dis)prove anything if I'm correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.37.30.222 (talk • contribs)

Wrong. A basic premise of classical logic is 'modus tollens', which is as follows:

1. A -> B 2. therefore -B -> -A

Or, if A implies B, then not-B implies not-A. Think about it in terms of set-theory, if you prefer. Imagine a Venn diagram; if A implies B (eg. if X is a swan, then X is white), then set A will be a subset of set B--the A circle will be completely inside the B circle. Therefore if an object is not B (ie. outside the larger B circle), it is not A (ie. cannot be inside the smaller A circle): if it is not-white, it is not a swan. So the paradox holds. Capiche? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.167.138 (talk • contribs)

 * It will suffice to simply point out where someone is in error, without taking on a tone of superiority. Besides, you are describing the law of transposition. Modus tollens says that if you have (A > B) and you know (~B) then you know (~A). You should probably be certain that you are correct before you make a fool of yourself trying to point out an error. Jaggerblade 16:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC) [forgot to sign before - time is wrong]

--- Not all swans ARE white. "Swan" is not a species, but rather is a collection of a few Genera. Even in the genus "Cygnus" do we see the Australian Black Swan as well. We could state that all Mute Swan or all Whooper Swan or all Trumpeter Swan are white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.57.233.2 (talk • contribs)

 * Umm... I believe that you are wrong by assuming that all A are an element of B implies that all B are A. For example, all pigs are animals is true, but all animals are pigs is not true. We are dealing with set theory, not propositional logic. Also, modus tollens is "if p implies q,and p is false, then q is false", not "if p implies q, and q is false, p is false". And yes, not all swans are white:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.169.233.206 (talk • contribs)

 * Modus tollens, as I pointed out above, is the denial of a hypothetical following the asserted denial of its consequent. You do indeed deny the consequent, and not the other way around, as you have written. Denying the antecedent is fallacious, because its truth or falsity has no bearing on the truth or falsity of the conditional. That's why the truth-table for two-value conditionals is written as follows:

p >  q T (T) T T (F) F F (T) T F (T) F

 * Notice that a conditional is always considered true, despite its antecedent being false. You can also see very easily from this truth table how modus tollens works out: if you know that the conditional itself is true, and you spot that the consequent is false, you can look at the two cases where the consequent is false (lines 2 and 4) and see that the truth of the conditional will only be preserved if the antecedent is also false (line 4).

 * I don't know what you mean by set theory exactly, but in terms of logic, we are dealing with Aristotelian logic, also known as categorical logic. All Swan is White being transformed into All non-White is non-Swan is indeed a legal move, and is preserved in modern logic by the law of transposition. It really makes perfect sense if you think about it. If you know that every swan is going to be white, then you also know that any time you see something that isn't white, it is not a swan.

 * Also, I would encourage anyone who doubts my claim about modus tollens to simply consult an introductory logic textbook. This arguing is just silly, because modus tollens is an accepted formula, and is therefore a verifiable fact. Someone here is obviously right and the other obviously wrong. There is no need for continued discussion: anyone who wants to see who is correct can go straight to the source. Here's a net source that may clear things up: [Discussion of Conversion, Obversion, & Contraposition], [Discussion of Elementary Propositional Rules of Inference] Thanks. Jaggerblade 16:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Popper
The Hypothetico-deductive method is the name given to Popper's philosophy of science. Although a few other philosophers had similar ideas, it was Popper who developed the logic of falsification. Go back to the version before the interference of, who is now banned, and you will see that the article once supported this view. Falsification and Hypothetico-deductive method are not mentioned in Charles Peirce. Or to put the same point in another way, the statements that Aristotle, Peirce and Hemple all knew about hypothetico-deductive method - well, shall we say that they need supporting citations? Banno 22:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Re-direct?
The logic and philosophy here are pretty shallow. Perhaps it should just be re-directed to the much more complete Falsification article. Banno 22:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sign your comments, please
For some reason, most users on this particular talk page do not find it necessary to sign their comments. Please do not forget your four tildes! Simões ( talk/contribs ) 19:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Is 2nd paragraph of the article now a straw man?
I believe that, with the current revision, the 2nd paragraph is now a straw man. The implied hypothesis of the 2nd paragraph is that all ravens are black. Use of an empty (thus nonstringent) test is not "corroboration" of the hypothesis, merely because it does not and cannot refute the hypothesis. We only count as a test those elements that could conceivably falsify the hypothesis. Then the 2nd paragraph seems polntless. --Thomasmeeks 00:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The first para. has been further tightened to remove ambiguity. The 2nd and 3rd para. appear to be irrelevant to the formulation in the first paragraph. On that basis, there is no reason to retain them. The Falsifiability article avoids the same problem similarly. Comments welcome. --Thomasmeeks 22:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC) (Proofreading fix.) Thomasmeeks 18:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Rather than delete the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the article (suggested above), I have attempted to strengthen them in the current Edit, adding responses of advocates for the hypothectico-deductive method. --Thomasmeeks 21:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC) (sp.) Thomasmeeks 10:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"Logically equivalent to.."
There is a line in the article that says "'All ravens are black' is logically equivalent to 'all non-black things are non-ravens' ". Since when was this a logical equivalence!? One statement does not imply the other. Roberdin 20:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Same statement is in Raven paradox. Blackburn's Dictionary of Philosophy affirms it (Hempel's paradox entry, p. 173).  One way to picture it is with a Venn diagram as: ravens a subset (whether proper or not) of black things, which are in turn a subset of all things. --Thomasmeeks 00:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

 * They certainly do imply one another. If you're familiar with first-order logic, you can quickly prove the biconditional relation of the following:
 * ∀x(Rx→Bx)
 * ∀x(~Bx→~Rx)
 * Simões ( talk/contribs ) 00:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Providing one assumes the Law of excluded middle. Pgr94 08:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * They have to assume the law of non-contradiction, too, but this all goes without saying. Everyone assumes these laws unless they're explicitly talking or writing about non-classical logics. Simões ( talk/contribs ) 00:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Translation of the above notation and terminology:
 * For all objects x such that x is a Raven, x is Black.
 * For all objects x such that x is not a Raven, x is not Black.
 * Biconditionality means logical equivalence. The equivalence of the 2 statements agrees with Blackburn and Simões. ("For all objects [x] such that," called a 'universal qualifier', is often written as an upside-down A.)  --Thomasmeeks 22:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is trivially wrong: "However, 'all ravens are black' is logically equivalent to 'all non-ravens are not black'." To say that all ravens are black is obviously not to say that nothing else can be black. But, 'all ravens are black' is equivalent to 'all non-black things are non-ravens', which I think is what you are looking for. It's called the contraposition form of the implication. An obvservation of a green tree is a corroboration of the contraposition, which is the point of the raven paradox. If the sentence as it stands was correct we could prove the antecedent by observing its consequent, and there would be no problem of induction. I'll fix this in the article. Kronocide (talk) 16:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Popper and Hypothetico-deductive approach
The article presents Popper as the popularizer of the hypothetico-deductive approach. This is obviously complete nonsense. Popper was an opponent of the existence of any approach that infers something from evidence (or that even holds that evidence exists), be it a hypothetical inference or any other. Popper also clearly held that no corroboration in the sense used in the article exists. As Miller correctly says in his Crtitical Rationalism, Popper's approach is a hypothetico-destructive, not a hypothetico-deductive one. And Popper went further and held that scientific method does not exist, but that the hypothetico-destructive approach is universal and applies to anything at all; not in any way restricted or special to science. --rtc (talk) 01:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * At least one citation from Popper with page numbers, to back up your statement, is in order here. Since the term 'hypothetico-destructive' is so distinctive, Popper would have included it, if he espoused it. If he originated the school of thought, but did not name it then we need an article with a link to this one. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is right at the beginning of chapter 6 in said book Crtitical Rationalism. The reference given to the index in Conjectures and Refutations in this article point to places that talk about hypothetico-deductive systems, not about a hypothetico-deductive method, and Popper does not talk about his own position, but about historical theories. --rtc (talk) 02:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The Hypothetico-deductive model (HDM) and the Scientific method
You know, you merely need to connect the Scientitic method and HDM to complete this article. Please, do so and don't mess around... Cheers! 109.189.67.107 (talk) 16:41, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Added a link in the article under Example. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 16:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

French
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9thode_hypoth%C3%A9tico-d%C3%A9ductive --Japarthur (talk) 15:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hypothetico-deductive model


text:
Talk:Celestial navigation

Some questions
Can you not use a theodlite to make the measurements? Can we please have something on this. Would you not measure 3 stars/ objects as opposed to two and then use triangulation? Isn't spherical trigonometry involved? in which case I would not call it "simple".
 * A sextant has some special adaptations to shipboard use. First, it minimizes cosine error, the error caused by the length of the measurement device.  It does this by measuring differentially from the celestial object to the horizon.  That is, the cosine error is limited by the distance from the user to the horizon.  The other important difference is that a theodolite's angles would move with the ship's motion.  A sextant's two-mirror system, and use of the horizon prevents this problem as well. Ray Van De Walker 23:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * 3 stars vs. 2?; Well, one, actually. The main tool of a practical navigator is a dead-reckoning track, periodically corrected by GPS or celestial navigation.  The theory is that "shooting" a celestial object places you on a great circle centered on the instantaneous ground position of the celestial object.  Given a reliable DR plot using a distance measuring device (a "taffrail log") and a magnetic compass, the single great circle is often enough.  A second sight on another object places you on one of two intersections, one near the DR track, and the other usually thousands of miles away.  A third sight creates a triangle of error.(i.e. it exposes the errors) Ray Van De Walker 00:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Spherical trig? Actually, no.  Common sight reductions are done with ordinary trig, because the angles are in the sky, or fixed between the horizon and the sky.  They don't usually lie in the surface of a sphere.  The sight reduction tables are logs of trig constants, so that the angles and distances can be calculated by adding. Ray Van De Walker 00:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

spherical trig is involved, as can be seen from the involvement of body GHA/dec and lat/long of the observer to compute Hc/d. alex (talk) 21:16, 19 December 2018 (UTC) "or as the most simple (scientific) observation that any of 5 (and counting) billion of people can do to determine their fate in space." What does that mean? ExpatSalopian (talk) 23:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Possible error
I don't think this is quite right:

 * "If you measure the angle to Polaris and find that it is 60 degrees away from directly overhead, then you are on a circle 60 degrees away from the north pole. This circle coincides with a circle of 60 degrees of geographic latitude."

If you are on a circle 60 degrees away from the north pole, then that would correspond to 30 degrees of geographic latitude, since latitude is measured from the equator.

for every degree moved away from the equator (in this case north), the star in question (Polaris) will "move" one degree towards the zenith. => if standing at the equator, Polaris will be located on the horizon, as you move towards the pole, Polaris will slowly seem to move at the same rate.

What happened...?
This article is totally empty! There's nothing after the title and the words "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia."

Erik 22:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Polynesian celestial navigation
Should this topic include a paragraph on Polynesian navigation? Using 'star paths' of stars on the horizon, rather than stars near the zenith?

"Sights on the moon, planets and stars allow navigation to occur at night or when clouds obscure other objects"
This statement, and the omission of the actual process of taking sights may be misleading to the reader. Sun sights, and if it is visible, sights of the moon can be taken during daylight. However, since the measurement of the angle between the celestial body and the horizon requires that both be visible at the same time, the impression given by the quoted sentence that observations can be taken at night, is not correct. Since stars are generally not visible during daylight (not completely true, but a fair generalization) and the horizon can't be observed in darkness, star sights are taken only at twilight a period which is several minutes long (longer at temperate latitudes and less in the tropics). The routine one would follow, if relying on celestial navigation and wanting to do the full process is to prepare in advance for the dawn twilight by figuring out in advance the approximate azimuth and elevation of several stars that produce good non acute angles in the lines of position they will produce. By having them figured out in advance, the sextant can be preset, and, together with a compass, the sought star can be picked out easily, several sights can be taken, and then you can move on and shoot the other selected stars, the more the better (two gets you a fix of limited value, 3 that coincide nicely tell you it is likely a good fix, 4 will give you an idea which line is to be ignored if one is out, etc), in the few minutes that twilight allows. You do the same process at the evening twilight. You maintain a dead reckoning position during the day and take sun sights, say every hour, advancing the lines of position along your course by the distance covered to produce a series of running fixes through the day. A noon shot, gets you your latitude. If you happen to have a moon during the day, you can get actual two body fixes. In cloud or darkness though, you depend on dead reckoning or any other method you have available.

This is a good article, but I wonder if something along these lines would improve it? At a minimum, I think the referenced sentence should be deleted. As a latecomer to this fine article though, I thought it might be better to post this first.

KenWalker | Talk 07:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

"Celestial navigation...was the first system devised to help sailors cross the featureless oceans without having to rely on random chance to enable them to strike land."
Actually, no. A sailor can drop a line to the bottom to find its depth and character (muddy, sandy...). He can look for clouds (which form differently over land than over water) or land birds. And he can use dead reckoning. I think the article should rather emphasize that celestial navigation was the first accurate method that can be used anywhere in the world. Jrvz 11:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge of Celestial Navigation Trainer into Celestial Navigation
I'm qualified in Celestial Navigation aboard both aircraft and watercraft, for both magnetic and grid navigation. I concur. Mugaliens 20:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

are these 57 stars visible to the naked eye?
Yes, but some are faint, and cannot be seen if the Moon is bright. Modern sextants multiply the illumination slightly through optics. - Mugs 18:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Text Removed
I removed the following text for two reasons: "Sights on the moon, planets and stars allow navigation to occur when clouds obscure other objects." Reasons: First, if clouds are obscuring objects on the surface of the planet, they're usually obscuring celestial objects, as well! Second, celestial navigation is not normally performed in the vicinity of other landmarks due to it's lack of accuracy. Rather, those landmarks are used, instead. - Mugs 18:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

"Beyond the scope of this article"
Why is this statement here? "the size and location of this circular line of position can be determined using mathematical or graphical methods that are beyond the scope of this article." Why is it "beyond the scope of this article?" Wiki contains thousands of far more technical articles than celestial navigation! The methods are sufficently discussed in the remainder of the article. Text removed. - Mugs 18:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Common practise today
"Modern practical navigators nearly always use celestial navigation in combination with satellite navigation to correct a dead-reckoning track, that is, a course estimated from a vessel's position, angle and speed."

My current experience at sea aboard oceangoing ships indicates this should read something like "With widespread availability of GPS, celestial navigation serves two primary function today. First is the determination of compass error in the absence of terrestial references.  Secondly, celestial navigation is used as a check on the reliability of GPS positioning data." --Captclbecker 03:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Isn't GPS a kind of celestial navigation? The GPS unit detects photons (radio instead of optical) from objects at known locations in the sky (man-made objects, rather than natural) and determines its location on the earth's surface.  Seems to be "celestial navigation" to me.  Spebudmak 22:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I humbly suggest that the entire GPS network is based on calculations and comparisons of "when exact solar noon" would be at various waypoints in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.198.101.30 (talk) 21:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

 * By your definition, yes. But the term "celestial navigation" is specifically reserved to refer to navigation by the Sun, Moon, Planets, and the stars via a means that provides uncorrected height of the body, and for the purpose of determining true heading.

Setting chronometers?
The article says "Traditionally, a navigator set his chronometer from his sextant...". As far as I know, chronometer are never set "in the field". I assume what is meant is that the procedure described is used to determine the current time, and that is compared with what the chronometer shows, so the chronometer's error at that instant is known. Paul Koning 15:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Chronometers were reset at regular intervals, usually each week, using techniques such as lunar distance or taking observations at known points.

 * I have a question. How do I begin editing the article?

 * Never mind. The help pages are very good.  Celestialmechanic 19:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

 * The marine chronometer section of Navigation specifically says that chronometers were not reset in the field, and certainly that seems to be a sensible practice. For one thing, it requires taking the cover glass off the chronometer.  For another, you wouldn't reset the second hand, there is no provision for that.  You need to know the "rate" of the chronometer (its systematic error) in any case to correct the time shown, so there is no conceivable value in resetting a chronometer.  Do you have a reference supporting "reset at regular intervals"? Paul Koning 16:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Here's a reference for keeping track of and compensating for chronometer error; it in no way recommends resetting the chronometer. http://books.google.com/books?id=W_cAAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA227&dq=marine+chronometer&output=html --SV Resolution(Talk) 14:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, the article says the navigator set the ship's CLOCKS, not the chronometer(s). The naval day began at noon, which was made daily by observation of the sun at zenith.  Any ship's clocks would have been set to noon daily.  --SV Resolution(Talk) 16:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

 * When I originally made my comment (back in April) the article did claim that chronometers were set. I subsequently removed that claim when I found confirmation that this isn't done, so the current text talks about checking but not about setting.   Your additional references are helpful to confirm that the current text is the right one, thanks!  Paul Koning 16:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The Link Celestial Navigation Trainer
The Link Celestial Navigation Trainer deserves an article in its own right. Lumos3 11:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Night and day navigation
There seems to be no disctinction in the article, I suggest changing the into to

During daytime; celestial navigation generally uses "sights," or angular measurements taken between a celestial body (the sun, the moon, a planet or a star) and the visible horizon. The sun is most commonly used. At night, navigators can also use the moon, a planet or one of 57 navigational stars whose coordinates are tabulated in the Nautical Almanac and Air Almanacs. At night, distances between celestial objects can be measured and calculated, or the person can simply decide to travel in a specific direction (north, south, west, east) using one of the navigational stars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.243.15 (talk) 08:42, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Spaceflight
This should be expanded to cover spaceflight, with star trackers found on satellites and spaceprobes, and spacecraft for navigation by the stars. -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 02:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Aviation
this should be expanded to cover more aviation, since airplanes used to have observation domes for star tracking to perform navigation -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 02:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * the predecessor to INS, Astro-intertial navigation system (AINS) should also be covered, that used automated star trackers. -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 02:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Example
The "Example" section offers no examples. I will spell that out for those whose grasp of English is inadequate. A real example of Celestial Navigation doesn't consist of looking at two distorted elipses on a map. The two circles are the RESULT of Celestial Navigation. (or rather are hypothetical results of the measurements of a given angle for EACH one of the two bodies, while varying the hypothetical angle for the other one through all possible values). I came to this article with the expectation that the method(s) of determining position from angle would be clearly spelled out. There is no reason not to do that. There is NOTHING in this stub which would allow me to do that. Hand waving and elusive mentions of "reduction" and "methods" are contemptible examples of dumbing down this article to the point where only grade school comprehension will be satisfied (and I mean 2nd Grade, not 5th). Not only that, but it isn't clear what is necessary in order to complete a determination of position. (Or distance, if that is the goal) And finally, I saw nothing useful about its use on land. Certainly it is used there, but of course, the utility of the actual horizon becomes problematical. OK, a real example is: given two sightings (and what ever additional information is necessary: time? height above surface? navigational charts? almanacs? knowledge of date?, etc. etc.) then walk, step-by-step, through the process of determining position (either lat/long or a position on a chart). Better, if there are 3 methods commonly used today, give 3 examples. It should be OBVIOUS that the title of this section is WRONG. I suggest it be retitled "Overview". As an Overview, its pretty good. It fails miserably as an "Example".Abitslow 18:49, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Abitslow, there is no need to SHOUT in a talk page, this is where discussions take place. Anyone is entitled to edit Wikipedia, if you do not like something then please go ahead and alter it. Summerdrought (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't have any problem understanding ethe xample, although it's bit noddy: "the ship is unlikely to be sailing across South America". Equally unlikely that the observer would be able to sight on both the Sun and the Moon when they were at that alignment... Stub Mandrel (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Add the Antikythera Mechanism to the article
Can someone please add the Antikythera Mechanism in an appropriate place in the article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Misty MH (talk) 23:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Celestial navigation


text:
Talk:Maurice Benyovszky

Instead of warring over his nationality, improve the article content instead
It seems a good number of editors care a great deal about whether this person was Slovak, Hungarian, or something else. Virtually all edits made to this article since the bulk of the content was added some years back have been related to his nationality. But the rest of the article is a shambles. There are Citation Needed tags throughout it. For all we know, everything in this article is false. I know the info on Madagascar was very incorrect, which is why I made edits to that piece, and that's the reason I follow this article. But I hope the editors who care about this historical figure enough to engage in edit wars over his nationality will stay a little longer and instead work to improve the references and check the facts in the rest of the article. Otherwise it's not much worth fighting over. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear friend, the question of his nationality is very important. Slovakia is a chauvinistic country teaching at school hatred against Hungarians. If you speak Hungarian, you can be manually attacked and nor police, nor the court will help you. You can see the case of Hedvig Malina, who despite she won the European Court, had to leave the country. The inhabitants of Tesedikovo vote for change of the name of their village, but Slovak Parliament did not allow it because they vote for Hungarian name. http://www.academia.edu/10334308/Te%C5%A1ed%C3%ADkovo_alebo_Pere%C4%8F-_na_Slovensku_po_slovensky_Tesedikovo_or_Pered-_in_Slovakia_only_Slovak_speaking In Slovakia there is no official language, but the state has its Slovak language and the law protects the majority. Also the Benes decrees and some laws that discriminated the Hungarians are still valid. There is a tendency in Slovakia to create history, as Slovak language was established only in 1843. So everything before is difficult to state that it was in Slovak or other Slavic language used in Northern Hungary as Polish, Czech, Ruthenian, Croatian etc. Everybody who lived in the territory of nowadays Slovakia is becoming Slovak, including Benyovszky. This alone would not be a problem not to be combined with the chauvinistic environment suspecting that Hungarians stole their heroes. This is the reason, why this topic is so neuralgic. But let us come back to the article. There is stated he and his relatives were Slovak. There is no proof of it, so I ask to delete these statements. Explanation – Arguments he was Slovak 1.	He lived in Slovak environment – sorry, I live also in a town which is 85% Slovak, but I am Hungarian 2.	He spoke Slovak – probably, I do speak Slovak also, but that does not mean I am Slovak 3.	There was a student from Verbó, now Vrbové, named Benyovszky in Svätý Júr and he was Slovak according to Ľubomír Bosák; sorry, this is very weak argumentation. Many people think I am Slovak, but I want to decide 4.	His surname seems to be of Slavic origin. Mine also by the way, and what? Arguments he was Hungarian 1.	He was a member of Hungarian nation, that means he was a nobleman, nothing more 2.	Personal correspondence in his family was lead in Hungarian - http://keyframe.nava.hu/service/gallery/keyframe/2014/01/06/duna-60536/duna-60536-10245700.jpg, http://keyframe.nava.hu/service/gallery/keyframe/2014/01/06/duna-60536/duna-60536-10252300.jpg, judge yourself which language you use in your family and why. Let us use this argumentation to Albert Einstein. He could not be Jewish. His name is German, he spoke German, he was born in a town, where the majority was German and surely, we could find somebody, who said he was German. I do not ask you to write he was Hungarian, that is irrelevant. I ask you to delete statements he was Slovak, because that is only speculative. I also ask you to delete the reference - In the archives of the Gymnasium (Secondary Grammar School) of Svätý Jur he is registered as a "nobleman of Slovakian origin of Vrbové in County Nitra. Beňová, Jana: K Móricovi Beňovskému sa hlásia tri národy. SME, 24. August 2006 S. 33. Reasons – there is no link for it, the article is not traceable from Wiki. Here is the link to the article - https://cestovanie.sme.sk/c/2863922/k-moricovi-benovskemu-sa-hlasia-tri-narody.html . I read the article, it is not a scientific work, just an opinion in newspaper. It has no scientific value, and there is no traceable source for the opinion of the author.

There is a dispute, when he was borne. Pál Maczunda, parish priest from Verbó, issued a document on 26th May 1777 in which he states Benyovszky was baptized on 22nd September 1741. This document can be found in Bibliothèque nationale de France Col.-E26, Bernard Le Calloc´h: Dossier of Maurice Benyovszky. You can find in Hungarian a scientific analysis by Dr. Szádeczky-Kardoss Irma, a historian, on this topic here http://benyovszky.hu/pdf/011.pdf. --Meszaros Miklos (talk) 07:53, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Name
Let's discuss the name of this article (a topic related to the nationality). There is an inconsistency between title (Maurice, Count de Benyovszky) and lead (Maurice Benyovszky). There is a ton of problems here, which I will list in bullets:
 * Inclusion of title (Count) is not a common or a good practice, at least for Slavic nobility - you will not see it on most Polish nobility, nor on Hungarian, for that matter. The Category:Counts of Hungary (not present in this article) has only one person, suggesting this title isn't common. In my experiences those titles are often bad translations of specific Slavic titles, unfortunately Hungarian nobility article we have does not discusses the titles at all (I did find the Perpetual count). According to (unreferenced) claim in our Count article, Hungary used a viscount, but not a count, title. Sometimes a related title was translated into English/French sources because English/French translators/readers couldn't be bothered with proper Slavic titles (like said Perpetual count which is not a count). For that reason I strongly recommend removing Count from the title (also, this is English Wikipedia, not French, so why Count de, instead of Count of? Proper French would be 'Comte de' anyway...). Final note: the Count was added without discussion by User:Zacwill two years ago ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Maurice,_Count_de_Benyovszky&diff=660235105&oldid=583052416). I am going to be bold and revert his undiscussed move to the version that was stable for many years prior.
 * Leaving his nationality for discussion aside, Maurice is neither Polish (Maurycy), Hungarian (Móric) nor Slovakian name (seems to be same as Hungarian). Maurice is a French version of that name: Maurice (name). While it was common practice in older (19th century) sources to translate names and badly transliterate surnames to make things easier for Western readers (which generally meant we got badly Anglicized/Francized version of names), this is no longer the case, and today Wikipedia (and modern books/articles) try to use the subject proper (Slavic) name. Whether to chose Maurycy or Móric depends on our views of his nationality. Benyovszky is a a Hungarian version of his name (Slovakian is Beňovský and Polish is Beniowski).

 * There is also the question of the WP:COMMONNAME in English, through we should be careful with Google (Books) counts as Google indexes a lot of old (19th century etc.) texts. Still, some data points from GBooks search: "Count Beniowski" - 106 hits. "Count Benyovszky" - 151 hits. "Maurice Benyovszky" - 4,919 hits. "Maurice Beniowski" - 2,260. "Maurice Beňovský" - 71. This shows us that when using the French name, the Hungarian name is twice as popular as the Polish one. But let's take a look at native spelling. "Móric Benyovszky" - 391 hits (but Hungarian likes reverse order, and "Benyovszky Móric" gives us 1,890 hits). "Maurycy Beniowski" - 2,010 hits. "Móric Beňovský" - 538. What we can see here is that the bastardized, half-French spelling "Maurice Benyovszky" is most common, but we should keep in mind it is a translated first name, a bad practice in modern scholarship. For native spellings, we have a roughly equality for Polish and Hungarian, with Slovakian being a distant third. Those results do however include the respective languages (and the count is affected by country's population), and anyway, this is English Wikipedia, so I tried to control for it with the words count and noble, getting: Slovakian "Móric Beňovský" count (104) and "Móric Beňovský" noble (61), Hungarian "Móric Benyovszky" noble (195) and "Móric Benyovszky" count (238) + reverse order "Benyovszky Móric" noble (362) and "Benyovszky Móric" count (270), and finally for Polish "Maurycy Beniowski" count (1280) and "Maurycy Beniowski" noble (1230), which suggests that when English sources use non-French native spelling, they use Polish twice as often and Hungarian, with Slovakian being the distant third. PS. Old discussion also suggested a surname spelling Benyowsky which is an anglicization of the Polish spelling, but it is not very popular: "Maurice Benyowsky" gives us 334 hits. PPS. Sorry I didn't provide direct Google Book links, but it should be easy for anyone to copy paste my search strings to books.google.com and verify the numbers.

In conclusion, and given that (per sources cited in section below) he called himself Pole seemingly more often then Hungarian I would suggest renaming this to use the Polish version of the name (disclaimer: I am also a Pole, so I have a bias here). Second best would be Hungarian name (since it is his birth name, after all). Using a French version of his first name, i.e. a translated first name that he never used himself, is the worst possible option. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:46, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I understand the need to provide a rational title for the article and a recognisable name for its subject. In truth, when I recently re-wrote the article, I thought it best not to touch the title, since I had no idea what effects a change might have. I am pleased that you have decided to drop the "Count" – see my comments below under "Nationality".

As for name: I note the Wiki recommendations on naming conventions. And I note your statistical counts of variations. I'm afraid I have no idea whether the search-engine used within Wikipedia makes allowances for aliases in the metadata, but it seems to me that that would be the best solution: one could then search on any variation of his name?

I am unclear about your argument re: GBooks search – are you saying that people actually type in these name variations into a search-engine; or that the search-results return those names? If the latter, then these statistics only prove that authors of books have chosen to spell the name in different ways. Which gets us nowhere.

When re-writing this article, I deliberately removed a section entitled "Variations on his name" – see the version of the article dated 3 June 2017, for example). Perhaps this removal was a mistake, but it seemed to me that a discussion of how to spell his name was only grist to the mill of the nationalists. Benyovszky's own autobiographical Memoirs begin with his name.  The Memoirs were written in French, and then translated into English.  All other translations based themselves either on the French or English versions.  And here he names himself as "Maurice-August de Benyowsky" (Fr) and "Mauritius Augustus de Benyowsky" (Eng).  Of the two, for modern English speakers, "Maurice" is clearly the preferred option.  However, if he was born and brought up in a Hungarian-speaking town, his name on local official documents would presumably be spelled Móric – unfortunately, we have almost none of these documents. His baptismal record (cited under "External Links" in the Wikipedia article) unhelpfully gives the Latin rendition of his names (Matheus Mauritius etc). But this document does spell his father’s surname as "Benyovszky". I would argue that the English-language Wikipedia article needs to be searchable in an English-speaking way – thus, "Maurice Benyovszky" would make complete sense. MurdoMondane (talk) 15:28, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't have very strong feelings except the removal of the 'count' part. As you say, it is hard to figure out what was his baptismal name, how did he call himself, and what is more appropriate, given also our discussion below about the difficulty of seeing him as only of one nationality. As long as Hungarian, Polish, French and English versions of his name both redirect here and are mentioned at least once in the article, I think it would be ok. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Nationality
English Wikipedia articles occasionally run into a nationalistic tug war, with some articles not stating the subject's nationality since 2+ parties can make a claim to it. A better solution is to mention in the lead the various claims, rather then be silent. I took a look at Polish, Slovakian and Hungarian wikis, and this is what they say:
 * Hungarian: "Hungarian and Polish nobleman" (magyar és lengyel főnemes) and later says something about him having relatives in Poland
 * Polish: "Polish adventurer of Slovakian-Hungarian origin" (polski podróżnik pochodzenia słowacko-węgierskiego). Polish wiki also states "He considered himself a Pole, which he stressed several times in his diary [2] through he was de facto related to three nations: Hungarian, Polish and Slovak" (Uważał się za Polaka, co podkreślał kilkakrotnie w swym Pamiętniku[2], chociaż de facto związany był z trzema narodami: węgierskim, polskim i słowackim) with the cited ref being page 14 of a Polish book: Mieczysław Lepecki: Maurycy August hr. Beniowski zdobywca Madagaskaru. Warszawa: Ludowa Spółdzielnia Wydawnicza, 1986. ISBN 83-205-3633-2.
 * Slovakian: doesn't make a nationality claim in the first part of the lead, but later calls him several times "the first Slovak to do something" (prvý Slovák).

Now, reading his biography it is clear to me he has strong claim to being Hungarian, being born there. He did spend some time in Slovakia (studies?), got married to a Slovakian women, and joined a Polish resistance army (Bar Conf.), but those times lasted only a few years. He spent the rest of his life outside those countries, and frankly if not for the Polish wiki/book claim that he considered himself a Pole I'd really favor calling him a Hungarian noble, with ties to Poland and Slovakia. I was able to access the book in question (which btw dates to 1938, the 1985 cite is for a reprint) through GBooks snippet view and luckily enough the displayed page does confirm the claim. I will quote it here and provide a translation: "Istnieje wiele dowodów stwierdzających wyraźnie, że hrabia uważał się za Polaka i wielokrotnie to sam głosił. Najpoważniejszym dokumentem jest jego własnoręczne pismo do marszałka Kongresu amerykańskiego w Filadelfii, w którym pisze o sobie jako o Polaku, a o Polsce — jako o swej ojczyźnie. W śledztwie prowadzonym w Petersburgu w związku z próbą ucieczki z Kazania oświadcza w swoim zeznaniu, że jest Polakiem; akty sprawy o bunt na Kamczatce wymieniają go też zawsze jako Polaka. Jako o Polaku pisze o nim Sgibniew i Bogulubow. Generał Kopeć, zesłany na Kamczatkę po bitwie maciejowickiej, pisze, że ludność tego półwyspu pamiętała Beniowskiego doskonale i nazywała go Augustem-Polakiem. Gubernator Wyspy Francuskiej w roku 1772, kawaler Desroches, w raporcie do Paryża, w którym donosił o ucieczce hrabiego z Kamczatki i jego przybyciu do Port Louis, pisze o nim, że podał swą narodowość jako Polak. W Pamiętniku Beniowski wspomina, że opuszczając Kamczatkę kazał wywiesić na maszcie chorągiew „Konfederacji Polskiey", a z okazji utarczki z Holendrami na wodach japońskich podaje, że wywiesił „banderę Rzeczypospolitej Polskiey". W podtytule swej książki napisał: "szlachcic polski i węgierski, etc."" Translation: "There are numerous proofs that the count considered himself a Pole and stated so numerous times. The most serious document is his own letter to the marshal of the US Congress in Philadelphia in which he describes himself as a Pole, and Poland - as his homeland. In an investigation carried out in Petersburg due to his attempt to escape from Kazan he declares in his statement that he is a Pole; documents about his Kamchatka mutiny describe him as a Pole. He is described as a Pole by S and B. General... writes that local people of Kamchatka called him August-Pole. ... [French official] wrote about him that he declared his nationality as a Pole. In his diary B. wrote that [twice he chose to display the flag of Poland on his ship]. In his diaries he describes himself as a "Pole and Hungarian noble".

It is worth noting that the book is available in a digital library repository (since the book is in PD: ), but that book does not seem to contain what I see in GBooks snippet, perhaps it is a new edition introduction. On first page of the 1938 edition it (unnumbered, digital scan page 5) is stated that he called himself a 'Polish and Hungarian noble").

Given all of this, I think our lead should describe him and a Hungarian and Polish noble, born in (then) Hungary, and self-described as Pole or Pole-Hungarian on a number of occasions. No source I found outside Slovakian wiki suggests describing him as Slovakian is important enough to warrant inclusion in the lead, however. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

 * "He did spend some time in Slovakia" --- you mean in the territory of present-day Slovakia (which was part of Hungary before 1918/1920). His wife Anna Susanna Hönsch was not a Slovak, but a daughter of a German burgher. --Norden1990 (talk) 08:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the corrections. This does further show that his connections to Slovakia are rather thin, through maybe some of our Slovakian colleagues will be able to provide more on that. PS. At the same time, I should note that the present-day location of his birth is Vrbové in Slovakia. But the sources do suggest that as far as cultural influences, he was associated with Polish and Hungarian cultures. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here  09:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The whole question of nationality is clearly one that won't go away – evidence is the fact that, once again, an anonymous editor has inserted the word "hungarian" (sic) into the lead within 24 hours of your last edit. I have subsequently removed it. From the evidence, I agree that we can surely discount "Slovak", given that there was no such place in the 18th century. As Norden1990 points out, his wife wasn't a Slovak either. The evidence adduced for calling him a "Pole" is a bit flakey. I note that you rely on a Polish book printed in 1938 for supporting arguments for him being a Pole. Apart from anything else, this book does not appear to cite sources of any such claims? For example "the local people of Kamchatka called him August-Pole" – in fact, the local people of Kamchatka regarded him as French (see Captain Cook's Voyages). I have studied Benyovszky material for several years and have never found any documents relating to the Kamchatkan period which describe him as a Pole. A fellow-escapee from Kamchatka – a Russian – quite clearly calls him "Hungarian". Benyovszky himself begins his autobiographical Memoirs (written in French, trans into English) by stating that he was "magnat de Hongrie et de Pologne, naquit ...dans le comte de Nitria, en Hongrie." Although he claims to have displayed a Polish flag on his ship, elsewhere he also claims to have displayed a Hungarian flag. He frequently talks of being a citizen of the Kingdom of Hungary. He introduced himself to various interested Frenchmen as a "Hungarian Baron", but also "born in Hungary...of Polish extraction". He offered sanctuary to his fellow-escapees in "Hungary, our homeland". He spent about a year fighting on behalf of the Polish Bar Confederation, but even longer working for the French government. And he also fought as an officer in the Austro-Hungarian army.

So where does that leave us? By birth, he was a citizen of the 18th century Kingdom of Hungary, part of the Austrian Empire. He never adopted any other citizenship, although he claims to have had relatives in Poland: but many of Benyovszky's claims are self-serving and suspect. He was by birth a Hungarian who sometimes liked to present himself as a Pole.

Incidentally, his claim to be a nobleman is spurious. He preferred to refer to himself as "Baron" or "Count", but he was never a baron (his mother was the daughter of a Baron, but the title was not hereditary) and it is questionable whether his father was ever a Count (the young Benyovszky's baptismal record names the father simply as "Colonel"). Benyovszky only became a "Count" in April 1778, after petitioning Empress Maria Theresa for the title.

I would suggest that the best anyone can do is give his place of birth as the 18th century Kingdom of Hungary, in a town located in present-day Slovakia. To do any more than that will simply embroil the article in more and pointless nationalistic discussions (see previous "Talk" on this article). I have deliberately written my parts of the article to exclude references to country/nation. MurdoMondane (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I pretty much agree with your analysis, but I dislike not having nationality indicators in the lead, it smacks to me more of trying not to offend people and deciding not to include pertinent information. We would need to see more sources on him claiming to be Hungarian/etc. before I'd support calling him just that; for now I think calling him a Hungarian and Polish noble, born in a city that was then part of Kingdom of Hungary and now is in Slovakia should be clear enough, with a note that he called himself Hungarian and Pole on various occasion, per sources presented.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:13, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Your changes seem a good starting-point, even though I disagree! Are you going to make the changes you propose?

What I find quite disappointing, though, is that while (a) the article is subject to peer-review and (b) this Talk is in progress, other editors have been happily ignoring the whole discussion - in the past 2 days, "hungarian" (sic) has re-appeared - then corrected to "Hungarian" - and out of nowhere the "Count" has acquired a completely new noble title. (I will need to start a new Talk thread on Benyovszky's claims to nobility). But I begin to wonder just what is the point of peer-reviews if other contributors are simply going to ignore anything being said, and not share their thoughts during the review process? And I find it really depressing, in a world which is slowly slipping into nationalism and sabre-rattling, that so much effort is being put into deciding whether an 18th century adventurer was Hungarian, Polish, Slovak etc, and whether he was of noble blood or not. Is it not enough that he was a citizen of the world and gave the world much to talk about? Does the fact (or not) of being "of noble family" make a blind bit of difference to history? MurdoMondane (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * As I said, to me the absence of notability is an indication of an incomplete state of the article. While this is indeed a controversial issue that likes to attract some flames and nationalist warriors, it still needs to be addressed. And yes, I am also saddened that too many editors focus on such issues rather then proper content creation and rewrite (btw, I want to thank you and others who wrote and expanded this article). But, c'est la vie... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

He was SLOVAK because then Slovak nation was oppressed by Hungarians, but still exists, so he was SLOVAK because he born in Slovakia and he told he was SLOVAK. Jakub Galbavý (talk) 12:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

A Noble or not a Noble?

 * I notice that you have suggested that Maurice Benyovszky was a "Count ... de Benyó et Urbanó". I would be interested to know where you found this information.  Assuredly, there was a noble family "Benyó et Urbanó" but as far as I can tell, it was a completely different branch of the family from the one that included Maurice.  And Benyovszky himself, while making very many claims about himself and his family, never once mentioned that branch.  But you may be correct - so can you advise further?
 * I should also point out that Benyovszky frequently described himself as a "baron" and/or a "count". So far as I know, he was never a baron, and only acquired the title of "count" after he had completed his autobiography (1776).  "Count" of what, I admit I'm not sure - perhaps this is where "Benyó et Urbanó" came from?  His baptismal record, which may be one of the very few documents which give reliable evidence on his name and title, only describes his father as "Colonel" and not a "Count" of any sort, and his mother as "Baroness" - but I understand that the latter title was not hereditary.
 * It should be noted that the Hungarian historian Mor Jokai - who in all other respects greatly admired Benyovszky - did not believe that Benyovszky had any hereditary titles.

MurdoMondane (talk) 19:01, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It is doubtless that Maurice was born into the Benyovszky de Benyó et Urbanó noble family. He was granted the title of Count on 3 April 1778 by Maria Theresa (charter issued in Vienna, see its text). --Norden1990 (talk) 19:12, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the pointer to the Maria Theresa document. (1778 is, of course, the correct date, not 1776 as I suggested).  From this document I can see that he became a "Count", but not that he became a "Count of Benyó et Urbanó" - have I missed something?   I can also now see, from the Jokai document you refer to, that he was in that family line.  But he was clearly not a born "Count", and neither was his father.  Indeed, if Benyovszky was in fact a Count by birth, why did he have to petition Maria Theresa to be granted the title a second time?  That doesn't make sense.  Do you have any more information on this?

MurdoMondane (talk) 08:54, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Benyovszky was not Count by birth, but a member of an untitled noble family, which was called "Benyovszky de Benyó et Urbanó" since the 16th century. The comital branch of the family descended from Maurice and his brother Emánuel (who was granted Count in 1792). --Norden1990 (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Please the Hungarian patriots to calm down.
Please the Hungarian Chauvinists to calm down. „The document is a register of students in Saint Jur, where he has written Slovak nationality as a sixteen year old.“ In autobiography he say that he fell be a Polish and sure they say that he is Hungarian. I would be glad if we agreed to write there not Slovak, not Hungarian but Hungary-Polish-Slovak. We are all reasonable people and we can come to an agreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk • contribs) 05:47, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
 * It is not a good idea to start a discussion calling for 'peace' with a personal attack, calling somebody a 'Chauvinists' is not nice as it is a pejorative term. Anyway, per the discussion above, nobody has presented a single shred of evidence he consodered himself Slovak. He might have been born and briefly lived in a territory that is presently part of Slovakia, and he may be considered a Slovakian hero by the Slovaks, but there is no evidence he felt Slovakian (likely, for him it was just a province of another country). Please provide reliable references that would enable us to call him Slovakian. Who calls him Slovakian? It would be nice to see non-Slovakian sources... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Slovaks pushing the theory that he was partially Slovak usually reference these sources.1.In the register of students at the Piarist College in Szentgyorgy, he is evidenced as "Slovak nobleman". 2.Benyowsky is the name of the Slavic origin, meaning "coming from Benov". Benov is the small village near Bytca, which belonged to old laird families Benovsky and Urbanovsky (also close to Turiec, where his father supposedly came from). As for the non-Slovak sources, good one is the book "Hungaria in parabolis: sive, Commentarii in adagia et dicteria hungarorum" published in 1804 and written by Antal Szirmay which contains also a short section about Slovaks (starting at page 70, available also online). Here, the author lists the names of Slovak noble families (or, if you prefer, of noble families with Slovak origins, almost exclusively lower nobility which gained their ranks for the army service). In this list, you can find also Benyowszky family. --Bublimuf| reply here  06:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm curious about the reason why these sources can't be used in the article. Since there's no response in here, I'll try to reinsert them and see who is removing them without giving a reason. Azure94 (talk) 11:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, so it's who's removing the sources. I would like to know what his issue with the SME article is. I hope it's not because he believes the wacky stuff about "Slovaks being taught to hate Hungarians in schools" that I can see up here on this talkpage being spread around by weirdos. Azure94 (talk) 14:42, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I reverted your edit (with different text than now), because the source (Szirmay) did not confirm your assumption. But I also wrote this in the editorial summary. --Norden1990 (talk) 14:52, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you please explain to me the reason for why you're removing a reliable source, SME? SME is one of the most read mainstream newspapers in Slovakia. The linked article is an interview with an histprian who is native to the same town where Benyovszky lived, and has been researching him for decades now. The article in no way claims that Benyovszky is 100% Slovakian, it merely talks about how much influence Benyovszky had on Poles, Hungarians and Slovaks. Mainstream news sources ARE RELIABLE SOURCE. We can absolutely mention the influence Benyovszky had on Slovaks without condoning their interpretation. --Azure94 (talk) 14:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * For a historical person, a newspaper is not a reliable source. Why do not you cite one of the academic works of the aforementioned historian? --Norden1990 (talk) 00:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

He was SLOVAK and finish. No hungarian, no Polish, no Czech, no! Slovak people suffer under terrible control of hungarians! Jakub Galbavý (talk) 12:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

On road to WP:GAN
Since the Peer Review was closed, I'll reply here to User:MurdoMondane's last comment, or at least continue the discussion on how to improve the article outside the nationality issue, which is extensively discussed elsewhere. I've added CNs to places where the GAN reviewer would ask for them. Do note that some places may require numerous citations added throughout paragraph, not just for the last sentence. Each fact needs to be referenced. Nothing here is common knowledge (WP:SKY does not apply). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:10, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * With cite needed issues addressed, I suggest WP:GAN as the next step. Good luck! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:15, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Maurice Benyovszky