text:
Talk:Kubla Khan

Too long and explication not needed
I agree entirely with the two comments below, The explication should be cut, since its purely opinion and adds no information about the poem. SiefkinDR (talk) 06:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Too long
This article is several times as long as long as the poem. "one could as well, methinks, wring a flood froma a damp clout!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypnopomp (talk • contribs) 20:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Interpretation of the Poem
This page contains within it an attempted explication of the poem that presents as true and factual its assumptions about the meaning of the work. This is completely uncalled for in any explicatory setting, much less a supposedly unbiased encyclopedic article. I have not seen this kind of treatment elsewhere in Wikipedia in regards to any poetic work. I think the line-by-line explanation should be removed, or at least presented as a highly subjective (and hardly accurate) interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.16.15 (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree. The interpretations of the poem are not only unnecessary, but often fanciful and come off as desperate. I'm going to take clean that portion up.
 * --Mr. Stein (talk) 00:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The "Themes" section is also pretty awful, starting with a rather bold claim stated as fact, when this entire section is interpretation. I'll plan to come back some day and wrassle this gator down, too.--Mr. Stein (talk) 01:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to note that the interpretation section completely omits any mention of the sexual interpretation of Kubla Khan, a major and meaningful category of scholarly interpretation.. If there is to be a section devoted to interpretation, it should at least be comprehensive. John Schulien (talk) 20:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

chinese emperor?
Kubla Khan is described as a Chinese emperor. Not true. Getting rid of that statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.14.92 (talk) 14:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Kublai Khan (the man the poem is titled after, even thought it is spelled differntly) was an emperor of China. He took control of of northern China in 1271 and finally southern China in 1279.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.33.28 (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Kublai Khan was not Chinese, nor was he a Tatar. All the references to Tatars in the article are incorrect. Please see the relevant articles on Kublai Khan and Tatars. SiefkinDR (talk) 15:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

 * There's a semantic issue here: does "Chinese emperor" mean "an emperor who ruled China" or "A Chinese person who ruled an empire"? 71.245.188.249 (talk) 01:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Including the poem
Why not put the full text of the poem here instead of an external link? Since it was published in 1816 there shouldn't be a copyright issue? RedWolf 17:51, Dec 2, 2003 (UTC)

 * See Don't include copies of primary sources. Basically, an encyclopedia article on a piece of literature should not be a copy of that piece of literature, but rather be some sort of information about that literature. And furthermore here on Wikipedia the poem would be fully editable, so how could one tell whether that's what Coleridge really wrote? You'd have to refer to an off-Wikipedia copy of the source material anyway, to do that. Bryan
 * As quoted in WP:NPS, "Smaller sources and samples are acceptable in articles. Some short texts such as short poems and national anthems are usually included in their article, e.g. Ozymandias".  Now Kubla Khan is fairly long, but having it side-by-side with the article infinitely increases the overall understanding of the text--Also, when the length of the article increases, the poem will not overwhelm the page.  Let's put it back.  AdamBiswanger1 04:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * For what it is worth, I agree that the full poem could be included, as per the practise with anthems and the like. The poem is one of the most famous around. How many lines precisely is it. If it is less than say 50 lines, I definitely think it should be in the article. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 10:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Tone of disbelief
This article seems to condemn the man. Why the tone of disbelief? Did Coleridge have a reputation for dishonesty? Or is it just a reaction to his drug addiction? The phrase "Coleridge claimed" apears twice in the article. As does the phrase "This claim seems unlikely". What motivation would Coleridge have to bend the truth. It seems narrow minded to assume that "A Vision in a Dream" is a reference to a "dream" in the literal sense. Did Coleridge explicitly state that he was sleeping? Please elucidate.

 * I'm also confused by the tone of disbelief. I don't think it's warranted.Wightpants 14:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * It's been a awhile since I've dipped into the Coleridge scholarship, but yes, there are problems with dishonesty. A substantial passage or two in "The Biographia Literaria" had been plagiarized.Bill 11:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Douglas Adams' "Dirk Gently"
I've removed the reference to Douglas Adams' "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency". The poem used in that book is actually The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.Wightpants 14:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, both poems feature in the book. I've put the refernce back in. :S Wightpants 14:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

But now there are two references, one near the top and one near the bottom! I like the book, but I think there should be only one reference. --71.125.9.240 05:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC) What THE HELL is goign on guys! Com'on, this can't be serious... DAMN IT

-

I think it is very important to note that it was NOT Coleridge himself who talks about the Opium induced dream. This was added later by an editor about 78 years after Coleridge's death in a book entitled "Complete Poetical Works". Coleridge's original note was:

"This fragment with a good deal more, not recoverable, composed, in a sort of Reverie brought on by two grains of Opium taken to check a dysentery, at a Farm House between Porlock & Linton, a quarter of a mile from Culbone Church, in the fall of the year, 1797."

A reverie does not mean he was asleep, so the part about the claim being "unlikely" isn't very fair to the original author of the poem.

There was also no mention of a "person from Porlock" in this original note.

-Anonymous, April 10th, 2006.

The preface WAS written by Coleridge. It appeared when the poem was first published in 1816. One of the reasons there is some skepticism about the preface is that the story it tells is different from that in the note quoted above.Bill 11:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there a possibility that the last section - "A damsel with a dulcimer" etc - was added prior to publication in 1816, and that "Mount Abora" is actually Mount Tambora, which erupted with spectacular effect in 1815?

Popular culture
I've reinstated the use in popular culture section, because the rather large revision was not discussed, and some popular references have returned now, so it would be 'unfair' to include only these and not others. -- C mon 15:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Given the subsequent discussion (below) I've re-deleted it. The remaining section added no value to the actual topic of the poem.  Ideally the article could have more analysis or history of the poem itself, not subsequent references in miscellaneous trivia.--MartinezMD (talk) 02:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

What is the point of this page?
Sorry but this page seems of little value. There is no significant discussion, explanation or elucidation of the poem. It appears to be merely a depository for tabloid infotainment trivial popular culture references. Worthy of an encyclopedia entry? Not in any way in my opinion. Trash it all and start again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.189.130.13 (talk • contribs).

 * You're welcome to rewrite the article from scratch if you feel it's necessary. You can do it at your user page or wherever (ask me if you need a page created). —Keenan Pepper 22:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

One of the Wikipedia's great strengths is that it treats popular culture as if it matters (whereas other more *serious* encyclopedic tomes may deem popular culture too trivial to discuss.)

I have loved this poem for many years. It was fascinating to find out in this article about how much its tone and its content has influenced creative persons in literature, film-making and music. Mfgreen 02:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm with 84.189.130.13 on this. The "In popular culture" section has got way out of hand, it occupies over half the article. What's the point? Kubla Khan is one of the most famous poems in the English language, so of course it is referenced in popular culture, but there's no need to list every single video game or pop group that uses the word Xanadu! How about moving the entire section to a separate page? --Auximines 10:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I know that seasoned Wikipedians tend to remove what they call "trivia" sections, or sections which cite the article subject in popular culture. I strongly disagree with this.  The irony can be seen  if you look at the linking article Person from Porlock.  This person is a tiny mention in Kubla Khan, yet its influence has been such that its article is longer than Kubla Khan!  There must be more ways to expand this article:  I was once in a music class where the teacher digressed for about 15 minutes to explain the complex symmetries inherent in the first paragraph - how come there's no discussion of that? -- kosboot (talk) 16:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

i know this discussion's closed but i really need to find the name of a french animated film which features this poem recited - in french - and the setting is tibet. there's a shaman dancing in the background and these two frenchmen - military explorers/adventurers in tibet probably in the late 19th c - share this poem inside the tent.. Brihas1 (talk) 20:25, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Trivia references
I removed the extensive section of references to the poem in popular culture. There is no value to such a section; as has been mentioned above, this poem is quite famous and frequently referenced. It took up half the article. If any of the trivia should be kept, it should be incorporated into the article rather than a list.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And until then, keep the section unreadable?.. List is at least more comprehensible than solid text. --kAtremer (talk) 16:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

 * This is a prose encyclopedia, not a list of random trivia. There are situations when an embedded list can be useful (see WP:EMBED) but naming off trivia is not one of them. If you think the prose can be improved, improve it, but converting it to a list is inappropriate.--Cúchullain t/ c 00:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Dead Link
The link to the full-length text of the poem appears to be a link to a university library viewable only to those with access privelages. I dont want to remove the link yet -- does it work for anyone else? 204.13.204.194 (talk) 20:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This link works fine for for me - takes me directly to the poem.Hifalcon (talk) 05:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All the links work perfectly for me Ged UK (talk) 09:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.54.213.67 (talk) 01:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed from Xanadu
I've removed this text from Xanadu which appears to be contradicted here. - The reported splendour of Xanadu later inspired Samuel Taylor Coleridge to write his great poem Kubla Khan and caused Xanadu to become a metaphor for opulence. Xanadu is remembered today largely thanks to this poem, which contains the following often quoted lines: (poem) Coleridge used artistic license with his poem, and few aspects of the description are in evidence at the actual site. The author claimed that his composition was suggested by a line in Purchas His Pilgrimage. --- MickMacNee (talk) 23:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The description of Xanadu in the poem was inspired by the description in the Purchas book, which was directly inspired by the account of Marco Polo, who described Xanadu in detail, including the wall and the gardens. If you compare the descriptions, so see a direct connection between the Marco Polo and the Coleridge. I think this should be included in the article.SiefkinDR (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Paradoxical locus
I wonder if anyone has remarked on the somewhat paradoxical juxtaposition of xanadu which is in the orient, with the river alph, which is according to conventional esoteric tradition definitely occidental? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 10:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Sexual... ?
I hate to bring this up, but my English class thought this poem had sexual themes in it... Does it? :-/ --HoopoeBaijiKite 07:49, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything can have sexual overtones, if your mind is saturated with hormones! But if you want to validate the adolescent musings, try google. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes sense... I suppose. Lol. Maybe I just have a perverted mind...? XD Besides, he WAS high when he made that poem. Just a guess about the connatations of it. I think maybe I was right... --HoopoeBaijiKite 19:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There's definitely a languid, erotic feel to the poem as well as plausible erotic symbolism (running water, mountains, music, etc). And he was actually feeling the pull of a woman outside of his marriage at the time he was writing. Geoffrey Tarlott has a very interesting discussion of those years, of the rise of his poetic work and how the arc subsequently broke down in a corrosive maze of self-accusations, moral hazard, opium addiction and doubts over language in Coleridge and the Abyssinian Maid (1967). With the breakdown of his marriage and the onset of a grave depression, Coleridge lost the ability to mobilize this kind of imaginative fireworks, and that in turn meant a loss of integrative power within his own person, a slump into the dead specific and imageless. Past "Dejection" in 1802, he lost the guts to celebrate imagination for itself, beyond outward reality, and that, Tarlott reasons, robbed him of the boost he needed to get anywhere as a poet. There are similar "dejection events" disrupting the belief in the poetic power in other romantic poets of the same era.
 * Tarlott, by the way, regards Kubla as essentially complete, not a fragment (so he sees the story as a later mystification by Coleridge to cover up for it, in his awareness of how strange it would look to his contemporaries) and at the line "A damsel with a dulcimer" he comments "the entry of a woman is almost inevitable at this point" from the imaginative logic of the poem. Strausszek (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

update from Ottava Rima
I just merged the longer work from simple:User:Ottava Rima/Kubla Khan. The original comments and sources seem to be included in that longer article. –SJ + 03:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Simple ?! O.R. and his "five miles meandering" exercises in simplicity never cease to amaze me. It appears that the article was imported prematurely, and could benefit from a few more rounds of editing... but what's done is done, good luck with honing it. (one quarter Tartar by blood, I was amazed by a mixup of Tartars and Tartans. Did K.K. import Scottisch beauties for the harem? or the historic sources mixed them up?) East of Borschov (talk) 08:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a lot that could be cut down and changed about that version - but it seemed rude to edit it on that userspace page, and better to move it here where it can be improved without either the constraints of language on simple or the meandering. Thanks, Quiddity for including the link. -- –SJ +  16:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * (For the sake of full transparency..) See this thread and the next dozen messages, at the foundation-l mailing list archive, where this work was explained and discussed. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Kubla Khan manuscript error
The unsourced statement in the lead that the manuscript is on display at the British Museum is probably incorrect: most of the museum's books and manuscripts were moved to the newly-founded British Library in, I think, the 1990s. The assertion needs support from a recent source, which I have been unable to find. Celuici (talk) 15:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Nah it was just flat wrong, the thing is deffo in the British Library. I've corrected it, with ref to British Library website. twl_corinthian (talk) 08:02, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Pilgrimes or Pilgrimage
AndyJSmith is quite right to correct  the name of the Purchas book from 'Pilgrimage' to 'Pilgrimes', and thank you for doing that;  but I believe that as a result you are misquoting Coleridge, who had the title wrong. Can you give the correct quotation from Coleridge, and then note in parenthesis that that he had it wrong? I would hate to see Wikipedia editing Coleridge's words, even if they're wrong. Thanks for your good work! SiefkinDR (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Article title should not be italicized (MOS:QUOTETITLE)
I'm not sure (a) why the title of the article is italicized or (b) why the full title of the poem (including subtitle) is not given in the lead sentence. According to MOS:QUOTETITLE, titles of short poems are not italicized but instead are set off in quotes. As "Kubla Kahn" is not an epic poem like the Iliad or Paradise Lost, but is of comparable length to most other short poems and songs, the italics are improper here. I've traced the faulty change to this edit by User:Sj back in June 2010, which, apparently, nobody ever bothered to challenge. I respectfully propose the article title italics be removed, the poem title be quotated in the article rather than italicized, and the lead be revised to give the full title of the poem as "Kubla Khan; or, A Vision in a Dream: A Fragment". Robert K S (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * IMHO the italicisation is correct - see WP:ITALICTITLE. But I'm with you on the full title in the lead. andy (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, Andy. All that WP:ITALICTITLE says is that italics should be used for the title "when italics would be used in running text".  But here, italics should not be used in running text for "Kubla Khan".  "Kubla Khan" is a short poem, not an epic poem, and thus its title is not italicized.  Again, see MOS:QUOTETITLE.  Robert K S (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but don't you think that there's a chance of confusion between Kubla Khan and Kublai Khan in that case? It's very common practice to italicise all titles of poems regardless of length, and we do have a guideline that tells us to ignore the rules! One interpretation of that is " If you do what seems sensible, it will usually be right, and if it's not right, don't worry." It doesn't seem worth worrying about. andy (talk) 18:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I do not agree that it is "very common" practice to italicize all poem titles regardless of length, and it is not proper practice, in any case. Nor can I see how confusion could result from using the proper convention.  I posted to the talk page first out of an abundance of caution in case anyone had any argument for why italics might be proper in this case, or in case there was any institutional memory as to how the improper italicization had come to be in the first place.  Neither having been set forth, I'll go ahead and make the change.  Thanks. Robert K S (talk) 21:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Orientalism
Is this an example of orientalism, and are there references to cite showing that?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 07:43, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

More on sexuality
I had a two-semester graduate course on English Romantic Poetry from Earl Wasserman at Johns Hopkins in 1964-65. Keats was half of one semester. I don’t remember his words, but I came away with the clear impression that the poem is full of erotic images, primarily of the female genitals. The sacred river, through caverns measureless to man, to a sunless sea: the vagina. Surrounded by fertile ground and incense-bearing trees. The chasm slanted down the hill... a savage place! Holy and enchanted. Fast thick pants, a mighty fountain erupts, producing the sacred river, that runs to the sunless sea. And then it’s connected with violence!

Also, that the poem is complete, that the interruption by the person from Porlock was, and there’s a reference in the article on him, fictitious.

I am in no position to say if there is anything to this, as 1965 ended my study of English literature. But it has stuck with me. deisenbe (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Reorganizing (and condensing) the article
There is a lot of very excellent information in this article, but I can't help but feel it is shortchanged by a confusing organization and redundancy. Surely the "Theories about the preface and writing" section belongs with the "Writing" and "Publication" sections? "Sources" and "Sources – Purchas and Marco Polo" should not be so far apart? I also think the best information (e.g., some of the great comparisons to the Crewe manuscript) would shine more clearly if things were cut down to be more concise. I'd like to start putting on organizing and condensing this article, looking at the Featured Articles Ode on a Grecian Urn and The Raven as models. I'm currently imagining a structure something like this: I think many bits are currently in the wrong place, eg, the first sentence of "Critical response" is "According to some critics, the second stanza of the poem, forming a conclusion, was composed at a later date and was possibly disconnected from the original dream." -- but that has nothing to do with the response to the poem, it belongs in the "composition and publication" section. Other parts of the "Critical response" probably belong as analysis of the poem. So I think putting things into this structure will reveal a lot of duplicated information; removing those duplications will improve the article substantially. I hesitate to make such major structural changes to such a well-established and trafficked article on my own, however. Are there arguments for other ways of organizing, or for not re-organizing? Should I revise in draftspace rather than the article mainspace, and then see if the new version is an improvement? Or is it better to do it "in public" and gradually so others can evaluate each change? ~ oulfis 🌸 (talk) 21:12, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Composition and publication <-- could use a better title, but I think "Background" is too vague
 * 2) Composition (incorporating sections on Writing, Crewe manuscript, Theories about the preface and writing
 * 3) Publication
 * 4) Influences (incorporating all the stuff about sources, and probably adding some mentions of, e.g., Romanticism, orientalism, etc.)
 * 5) Poem
 * 6) Synopsis
 * 7) Key images (incorporating discussion of the river, the maid, and mount Abora)
 * 8) Style
 * 9) Major themes (incorporating discussion of the poem's meaning, probably drawing on some things in "critical response")
 * 10) Reception (aka "Critical response")
 * 11) During Coleridge's lifetime
 * 12) Nineteenth century
 * 13) Twentieth century
 * 14) Contemporary
 * Since this is proving to be a fairly involved task, making it difficult to leave the article always in an attractive state for "live" readers, I am undertaking revisions in my userspace, where I invite contributions and revisions from anyone who is interested! ~ oulfis 🌸 (talk) 00:18, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I finished the first "section" of my draft (the composition & publication) and it seemed sufficiently improved over the mainspace article, and sufficiently self-contained, that I've amended the article here. It was a BOLD series of cuts but I think all of the most important information is still there -- I moved some pieces to the Person from Porlock and (new) Crewe manuscript articles. Statements which were unsourced in the original are still unsourced (there's a limit to how much I can do at once!) so there's still plenty of improvement to do. I hope others will feel free to build on this. ~ oulfis 🌸 (talk) 09:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Thank you for taking on the enormous task of making this article more useful and readable. I think your changes work pretty well.  My one recommendation is that you move the section 'Sources - Purchas and Marco Polo' further up, ahead of "Theories about Meaning"  since it's very specific, well-sourced and easily verifiable, whereas "Theories about Meaning" is largely  speculative,  and extremely debatable. Keep up the good work!  SiefkinDR (talk) 12:47, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

 * That's a good point! I moved it there because I didn't think it belonged in the "composition and publication" section and wanted to keep the sources together, but you're totally right that it's some of the higher-quality material here and it's exactly the kind of useful encyclopedic information that a reader will want to encounter much sooner in the article. The "other sources" aren't as strong but I think there's benefit in keeping things in a section together so I've moved them up as well for now. Thanks for the suggestion! If you have other ideas I'd be keen to hear them, or of course you can make them yourself. ~ oulfis 🌸 (talk) 18:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

February update: I've made my second BOLD chance to the article, removing the lengthly explication of the poem and replacing it with a synopsis. My goal with the synopsis was to avoid anything that would constitute interpretation, including things like trying to described a chronology of events or identify who ambiguous pronouns are referring to. Please let me know if you disagree with that approach, or don't think I have succeeded at it. The previous poem summary actually seemed, to me, to make a decent paragraph on its themes, so I've put it there for now -- though the themes section definitely needs a major clean-up. My current plan is to finish cutting down the "reception" section and then do the themes and style. (I'm doing it in that order because a lot of the bulk of the reception section is really interpretation of themes/style, so I want to extract all that material before I start organizing it -- the stuff I cut is being saved in my userspace draft.) I also moved the poem itself to a quote box, but I'm not sure if it's really appropriate... it's so much longer than the synopsis section! So I'd also love to hear thoughts on what to do with the poem. ~ oulfis 🌸 (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

 * I think you're doing a great job, the article is improving steadily. I also think what you did with the poem is perfect;  it's very helpful  to have the poem right there so you can check it against the commentary.   Please keep up your good work!! SiefkinDR (talk) 10:57, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

"Composition and Publication" section might be better called something along the lines of "production" or "synthesis"? heber89471 (talk) 6:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Super sexy poem? or is this just me?
Wow so many sexual themes in this poem; I did not know how to make note of it politely. Gonna go try to work it out on my own right now Electricmic (talk) 19:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Restore poem in side box
Although I agree that the poem may have been too long to be quoted in its entirety, I think it would be valuable to restore the sidebox as you suggested. I find it quite informative and useful to include it directly in the article. And since the poem it is not that long and the box does not take up much space, I see no reason not to bring it back. Best regards, 92.34.133.162 (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 * Seems like an acceptable suggestion. Foiled circuitous wanderer (talk) 20:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 * Sure, sounds good to me. The 1816 version is in wikisource here. ~ L 🌸  (talk) 00:54, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

 * I have added it back now. Best regards, 92.34.133.162 (talk) 14:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Clash of symbols
I think the suggested pronunciation of the poem's title is unhelpful. An inspection of the rhymes shows that Coleridge almost certainly pronounced "Khan" as the English word "can." The pronunciation guide suggests that Khan have the a of "father." One can say that this is "standard" now, but that is irrelevant ( "Kubla" is no longer the standard form either) and the guide merely distracts (and detracts) from the poetic effect of the work. It would be better to have no pronunciation guide at all. 71.245.188.249 (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Italic
The poem is usually published with Coleridge’s writings on how he composed it and why it wasn’t finished, right? I’m assuming that’s why the title for a 54-line poem is italicized. Eyeluvbraixen (talk) 07:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Second paragraph
The second paragraph (summary of the poem) is just plain wrong. The "Abyssinian maid" is not in the second stanza at all! 2001:18E8:3:2000:E000:0:0:D367 (talk) 16:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 * You're right, the lead doesn't accurately reflect the synopsis section or the poem. Luckily, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, so you can just fix it! ~ L 🌸  (talk) 18:16, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kubla Khan


text:
Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica (consul 191 BC)

Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica (born 227 BC; fl. 204 –171 BC) (Nasica meaning "pointed nose") was a consul of ancient Rome in 191 BC. He was a son of Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus.

At the request of the Senate, he journeyed with the Roman matrons to receive the statue of Magna Mater in 204 when it arrived from Anatolia at Ostia. According to Livy and Ovid's Fasti we are told that he was chosen for this duty because he was the best of the Roman community. He was later aedile in 197. As praetor in Hispania Ulterior (194), he defeated the Lusitanians at Ilipa, and as consul subjugated the Boii. He was not chosen as censor despite standing in both the elections of 189 and 184, a failure marking the decline of the influence of the Scipiones in Rome. He went on to help found Aquileia in 181, and appears in an inquiry of 171.

This Scipio Nasica was the father of the Scipio Nasica who opposed Cato the Censor for several years on the question of Carthage. Both father and son were distinguished jurists; the father was reportedly given a house in the center of Rome by the Senate to make his advice more accessible to the Senate and people of Rome.

He knew the epic poet Ennius as Cicero reports an anecdote on them.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Columbus Day

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 October 2018 and 5 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jevilla001.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2020
The line in regards to the Governorship should be specified that Diego Columbus was the Governor that Bartolomé de las Casas witnessed, as it implies that Bartolomé de las Casas was cataloging Christopher Columbus' Governorship and not Diego Columbus'. It should be specified that this is referring to Diego Columbus or instead state "who observed the region where Christopher Columbus had previously been governor."

Journalist and media critic Norman Solomon reflects, in Columbus Day: A Clash of Myth and History, that many people choose to hold on to the myths surrounding Columbus. He quotes from the logbook Columbus's initial description of the American Indians: "They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance.... They would make fine servants.... With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want." Solomon states that the most important contemporary documentary evidence is the multi-volume History of the Indies by the Catholic priest Bartolomé de las Casas, who observed the region where Columbus was governor.

Should be:

Journalist and media critic Norman Solomon reflects, in Columbus Day: A Clash of Myth and History, that many people choose to hold on to the myths surrounding Columbus. He quotes from the logbook Columbus's initial description of the American Indians: "They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance.... They would make fine servants.... With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want." Solomon states that the most important contemporary documentary evidence is the multi-volume History of the Indies by the Catholic priest Bartolomé de las Casas, who observed the region where Diego Columbus was governor. Nixalot (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

 * ❌. History of the Indies documents between 1492-1520, in which there were multiple governors including both Christopher and Diego. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 02:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

A citation of different views of this opposition to Columbus would be more useful. Not doing so leaves the impression that the tendentious bias of this section is the settled opinion of scholars. Also useful would be some mention of studies of the culture of the indigenous peoples to give a comparison with the Spaniards. 2601:647:5800:3B60:4825:6F39:B52B:71D (talk) 01:28, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Italy
Columbus Day is not celebrated in Italy. There is no mention of celebrations in the Italian page, as it is only a US holiday. The link to the government source simply states that some governmental activities might take place (probably in Genoa). It is not a holiday. I think the way it is written is misleading. 2.207.60.78 (talk) 06:27, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

 * "Giornata nazionale di Cristoforo Colombo" is not an officially recognized holiday by Italians. It is merely a celebratory calendar day that's observed by just a few people or organizations.  This statement should be edited, if not deleted. 99.35.17.4 (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The date calculator is off by a day.
For this year, 2022, it should be today Oct 10), not the 11th. 66.177.251.92 (talk) 12:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

This sentence is trivial and should simply be removed
We have a sentence at the end of the history section, "In honor of the request made by joint resolution of Congress on April 30, 1934 that the President proclaim the second Monday of October of each year as “Columbus Day”, President Joe Biden proclaimed October 11, 2021 as Columbus Day." Why is this here. The fact of it's start is already in the article, and every single president since then has made the same proclamation. Do we add the other 12 presidents who did the same thing? Or do we add 87 more statements for each of the intervening years? It does nothing to enhance the article and I tried to remove it but was reverted. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

 * On the contrary, the sentence *does* indeed enhance the article, as it ties the original presidential proclamation over time with continuity to the current President in the current year (edited to 2022), which is why it was included, chronologically, in the manner that the history section of the article is written. Also, it must be considered that the continuance of the proclamation to the present day has been especially significant since Congress, in this case, could not demand, or, order each successive President to make the proclamation, it could only request that he or she would do so.  Therefore, the proclamation is not at all guaranteed; it is an honor that continues to highlight the importance of Columbus' achievements and cannot be taken for granted when the tradition is fulfilled.  To answer your questions above, no; we don't have to add further detail in the manner that you described.  The sentence covers the historical aspect of the proclamation as written. 2601:543:4200:73E0:1506:1580:DDE3:2 (talk) 05:13, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have spent the day or so since I read Mr/s 2601's response droning a mantra on WP:AGF, but it really hasn't worked. I honestly can't decide whether to call the egregious Biden namedrop 'trivial' or just 'drivel', so I settled on drivial as that also sums up the above response . Should we also add the line, "The Pope said Mass this Sunday," into the Exodus article? Wouldn't that piece of unremarkable, non-notable fluffery "tie the original [Biblical] proclamation over time with continuity to the current [Pope]"? I mean, he decided to keep holy the Sabbath, didn't he? As for "cover[ing] the historical aspect of the proclamation," that would make some sense in an article about the President's proclamation, which this is not. It's about Columbus Day.
 * This section already says, "Since 1971, when Columbus Day became an officially recognized Federal holiday in the United States, the holiday has been observed on the second Monday in October..." Every President, including Biden, has issued a Proclamation doing so. I support @Fyunck(click)'s original removal. If no one can give a rational reason for including of this piece of drivia, it needs to either get deleted or trigger a WP:RfC. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:03, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * A rational reason for its continued inclusion *has* already been given above. President Biden's proclamation in this case was about Columbus Day, which ties it directly to this section.  Name-dropping it is not, but; to note the name-calling, derision and passion expended by detractors over a single but very important fact certainly gives one pause. 2601:543:4200:73E0:3D51:AA4F:AE37:8DBA (talk) 16:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * First, I struck-through the only part that you could possibly have seen as a reference to yourself, Mr/s 2601, and I did not call you names or deride you in any way. I did deride your smug response, however, and can't find a serious reason not to call the page-edit in question 'drivia'. It has no notability in the article. It is trivia. It is name-dropping.
 * Actually, the paragraph you gutted here might have had value, as it spoke to President Biden's choice to also proclaim Indigenous Peoples' Day last year. In contrast, Biden signed three similar proclamations on 07 October this year, the same day he did the Columbus Day one. Do you know what the three related articles have in common? None of them mention it or him. Why? Perhaps because it has no notability in the article. It is trivia. It is name-dropping.
 * Before we leave the question of whether a particular President's proclamation is important, I'd submit for consideration the US Federal Government's Office of Personnel Management's list of approved Federal holidays for 2023. It has Columbus Day as a Federal holiday. So does every year through 2030. Why? Because every President makes the Proclamation, and it's so automatic that it's written into the Federal employment contracts. I repeat my request to either restore Fyunck(click)'s deletion or raise a WP:RFC. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:29, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The sentence in question isn't name-dropping; it mentions the current president by name for the benefit of anyone unaware of the fact. It isn't trivial because it describes a part of the history of the holiday.  The proclamation isn't guaranteed by the documents you cite; they only assume its continuance.  Any president can decide not to continue the proclamation, therefore; its continuance by the current president is a significant honor that deserves mention as currently written. 2601:543:4200:73E0:3D51:AA4F:AE37:8DBA (talk) 05:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * But then we have to update this every single year by your way of thinking. Every president in the future, for every year, we must change this to make the proclamation up to date. Built-in need for update isn't what we should be doing. The sentence should be scrapped and perhaps a new sentence after "Navy and the Marine Corps with either a 72- or 96-hour liberty period." It could simply say "Each president since 1971 has proclaimed the date as Columbus Day." Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with removing this sentence as it would just require unnecessary yearly updating everytime the president proclaims it. 's suggestion of changing it to "Each president since 1971 has proclaimed the date as Columbus Day" sounds like a good alternative as it would only need updated if a president didn't proclaim it. Suonii180 (talk) 13:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that an update to the edit proposed above would only be necessary if the proclamation was postponed or discontinued is a good point.
 * However, since 1971 is already mentioned in the History section as the initial year of the modern holiday, I suggest that the edit would read as follows (leading in from the beginning of the sixth paragraph of the History section): "Since 1971, when Columbus Day became an officially recognized Federal holiday in the United States, it has been observed on the second Monday in October, as commemorated by annual Presidential proclamation noting Columbus' achievements. coincidentally exactly the same day as Thanksgiving in neighboring Canada since 1957.
 * My contribution to the proposed edit strikes the phrase about Canada's thanksgiving celebration, for two reasons: one, it is totally unrelated to the subject and two, exclusion of that phrase would allow my edit suggestion to work in a location that fits naturally. Also, I feel it necessary to point out that the presidential proclamation serves primarily to note Columbus' achievements, something that was previously ignored in an earlier edit, with an attempt to replace that aspect of history contained in the proclamation with an almost negligible and off-hand description of Italian-American contributions, almost as some sort of misguided attempt to appease those who might be concerned with such an omission. 2601:543:4200:73E0:69D1:1F06:A5AF:3207 (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem with this change and I have done so. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent solution. Thank you. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

de las Casas?
Would it enrich this article if we point out that de las Casas is a proven hypocrite and actually ordered some of the things he blamed on Columbus at the end? And maybe the fact that Columbus in his own writing has said about the Natives "They are very well made, with very handsome bodies, and very good countenances" and that he thought they would be great for Spain if they would convert to Christianity? Lets not forget that half of the things Columbus is blamed for happened either after he went back to Spain or after he died. YT DomDaBomb20 (talk) 20:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

 * https://www.italian-americans.com/editorials-essays/christopher-columbus/why-columbus-day-of-1942-is-so-meaningful-today/
 * This article is well put together. Has sources at the bottom. Go to the questions for most of the myths about Colombus, and most of the responses have credible sources attached YT DomDaBomb20 (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://ricochet.com/225641/debunking-lies-columbus-story-francisco-de-bobadilla/ YT DomDaBomb20 (talk) 00:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Columbus Day


text:
The Story of Mankind

The Story of Mankind is a book written and illustrated by Dutch-American journalist, professor, and author Hendrik Willem van Loon. It was published in 1921. In 1922, it was awarded the Newbery Medal for an outstanding contribution to children's literature. This was the first year the Newbery Medal was awarded.

Written for Van Loon's children, The Story of Mankind tells in brief chapters the history of Western civilization, beginning with primitive man, covering the development of writing, art, and architecture, the rise of major religions, and the formation of the modern nation-state. Van Loon explains in the book how he selected what and what not to include by subjecting all materials to the question "Did the person or event in question perform an act without which the entire history of civilization would have been different?".

Van Loon published an updated edition in 1926 which included an extra essay, "After Seven Years", about the effects of World War I and another update in 1938 with a new epilogue. Since Van Loon's death in 1944, extensive additions were included in The Story of Mankind, initially by van Loon's son, Gerrit van Loon. The 2014 version (ISBN 978-0-87140-865-5) by Robert Sullivan covers events up to the early 2010s.

Adaptation
In 1957, a feature film with the same title was released, based on the book. It stars Ronald Colman and an all-star cast, featuring, among others, the Marx Brothers.

title: The Story of Mankind


text:
Talk:Xōchipilli

Untitled
god

Could he be the precursor to Kokopelli? The names and descriptions of these entities are too close to be coincidence.

the original text and more information/pictures may be found here http://www.erowid.org/entheogens/xochi/xochi.shtml

found by sokratis.de ;)

Homosexuality
I cannot find any valuable source that this info is true. In the Daily Lives of the Aztecs on the Eve of the Spanish Conquest by Jacques Soustelle there is nothing about homosexuality or even male prostitution. The little online sources I did find suggest that this was essentially made up by their Spanish nemesis or looked infavorably at it. I think serious refernces are needed and should be looked into, along with that it should be mentioned that this might be nothing more than another story that the Spanish made up to further demonize the Mexica ppl. Xuchilbara 23:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the offending section. Homosexuality and prostitution certainly existed in pre-Columbian Mexica society, but the idea that Xochipilli was a god of male prostitution is another thing entirely. --Ptcamn 01:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not an expert, but I have been studying this deity in particular and Mexica religion, poetry and culture for a while now. The link with homosexuality and male prostitution is made in the National Museum of Anthropology and History in Mexico city, which I recently visited. Now, of course, this does not really trace the genesis of this notion, and sadly, since I was reading for myself all this years, rather than doing academic research, I have no list of my own sources. I will say that the museum is usually curated by competent academics. The question of whether some particular reported aspect of Mexica life is accurate or a Spanish fabrication is common to controvertial things reported, notably human sacrifice; it is an insidious question and hard to answer, by destroying the culture actively, up to and including systematic destruction of books, the Spanish made themselves into "arbiters" and almost sole reporters, which means that the truthfulness of the source, when Spanish, is always an issue (they had a political and religious agenda), but moreover, even when truthful, they could not help but report through their own cultural lens.
 * I personally find nothing wrong with either behaviour, so it does not demonize them in my book. From what I know of the Mexica, they were very strict, but not puritanical. Let me explain: a lot of leniency was allowed some members of society, while very strict behaviour was expected of others. I believe that they tolerated use of entheogens in their society, but did not look upon it favourably in their ellites. If that were the case, would it be so strange that a particular god associated with some marginal behaviours be associated with others? (Assuming the marginality of prostitution and/or homosexuality, as I know little of their stance towards either.) Another thing to consider is that He is associated with flower and song (which as a phrase meant poetry in their poetic language, and thus the association with writing, especially poetry), also flower as an allegory of painting and psychedelic imagery, as well as song, as in music, but also the aural components of the entheogenic experience. Given the heightened connection of male homosexuals to their femenine side in our culture, and assuming that holds more or less true for other cultures, as well as the connection in many cultures of courtesans/prostitutes to the arts, is this link then much of a stretch?
 * I offer no conclusions, merely musings to stimulate discussions. I would love any sources, especially active links that do not require the buying of books, though pointing me at books is also welcome. I will in turn endeavour to post any links I come across. Jergas (talk) 09:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That and prostitution wasn't as "nice" as it seemed. I'm not sure about homosexuality, [It would be unrealistic to say it did not exist.] but prostitutes were sacrifaced to Tlazolteotl. I don't think the Aztecs were "purity minded" per se. However, they seemed stricter about certin sexual practices than one would normally suspect and much of lustful sex was considered a sin. I would think if anything some deity like or similar to Tlazolteotl would be more on the homosexuality thing than Xochipilli. Although his twin is Xochiquetzal a patron of female prostitutes, I've never really seen any source that considers him equal in that respect. Xuchilbara 01:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent reversion
I reverted the recent assertion added to the opening sentence, a categorical statement that Xochipilli was the patron [deity] of homosexuals and homosexual prostitutes, accompanied by half-a-dozen or more references.

For one thing, a lot of those references given do not actually have much to say about the topic: Benjamin Keen's book says nothing of it, AFAIK Bernal Diaz's acct (either of the two translation versions given) doesn't name xochipilli, and Mendelssohn's book is completely irrelevant. That leaves just sources like Stephen O. Murray and Richard Trexler, who are not Mesoamerican scholars and whose views I doubt are representative of what Mesoamerican scholarship interprets these deity figures to represent and stand for.

For another, as noted above Mesoamerican cultures' construction of gender and sexuality roles is rather different from modern western ones and categories, so one can't simply equate the two. It really would need a more nuanced and carefully researched approach here, with due regard to WP:UNDUE. I'd have no problem with mentioning here what scholars such as Murray and Trexler might have to say abt the topic, but it seems to me that their claims need to be put into the context of coming from another field and research angle altogether, ie not portray or presume that all and standard Mesoam scholarship shares the same interpretation.--cjllw ʘ  TALK 08:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I added the quote from David Greenberg that directly say this, and the Encylopedia of Queer myth, symbol and spirit reference. The Encylopedia of homosexuality says the same thing, quoting Bernal Díaz del Castillo. So it seems primary, secondary and tertiary sources support this claim. Rewording to "has been interpreted as" is fine by me. We can even name those that have done so, but that seems a long list.YobMod 14:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Xochipilli & Mayahuel? Make up your mind.
From the Xochipilli page: "His wife was the human girl Mayahuel" From the Mayahuel page: "Mayahuel is the wife of Patecatl." make up your mind. --Lo'oris (talk) 11:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking generally, not about this question in particular, I can say that mythology is not consistent like that. Different myths talking about the same gods and godesses will offer different versions of pretty much any aspect of the myth, including marriages and kin relationships. Jergas (talk) 10:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Xōchipilli


text:
Seabrook, Maryland

Seabrook is an unincorporated community and census-designated place (CDP) in Prince George's County, Maryland, United States, located approximately 12 mi east of Washington, D.C. Per the 2020 census, the population was 19,627. Prior to 2010, Seabrook was part of the Lanham-Seabrook census-designated place.

Etymology
Seabrook takes its name from Thomas Seabrook, who was a topographical engineer with the Pennsylvania Railroad. He originally built three cottages and a park with fenced-in tame deer in the area near the rail station in the early 1870s.

History
A school was built in Seabrook in 1895.

The community developed in direct relationship with the Washington Branch of the Baltimore and Potomac Railroad. The railroad's main branch into Washington opened in July 1872, with stations established at Glenn Dale, Seabrook, and Lanham, among others. Thomas Seabrook, an engineer for the railroad, purchased 500 acre of land in 1871 around the location of a planned station for the purpose of creating a retreat community. By 1880, a station building and three Gothic cottages had been built, followed by commercial buildings and a schoolhouse. By 1914, the community remained small with just a few buildings located at the intersection of Seabrook Road with the railroad. By 1957, the community had grown to include approximately 185 houses along 10 streets. The streets were arranged in a grid pattern roughly parallel to the railroad line. The community extended from present-day Good Luck Road south to Annapolis Road.

Residential development continued on vacant lots within the community throughout the 20th century, while commercial development focused along the main roads. Commercial strip development is located along Annapolis Road and Lanham-Severn Road. The original railroad station and early commercial buildings are no longer extant, though the old schoolhouse and a few of the early dwellings survive.

Most of the more recently built Seabrook (some of which was originally called Seabrook Acres) is a development of red brick homes along the Lanham-Severn Road, now Maryland Route 564 in Maryland, approximately one half mile east of the Capital Beltway. Many of its homes were built in the 1950s to serve the needs of new employees at the newly established NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, which is located immediately to the north. Development of apartment complexes and other large structures has occurred during recent years of developer expansion. However, Seabrook remains a residential area with numerous single homes surrounded by green lawns shaded by century-old oak trees.

Geography
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the Seabrook census-designated place has a total area of 7.8 sqkm, all land.

Businesses
Seabrook has its own MARC commuter rail station (Seabrook Station). Seabrook residents are served by a large number of small businesses, including restaurants, fast foot eateries, banks, lawyer services, laundry services, veterinary services, car repair, and numerous other businesses which are located at the Seabrook Station. Seabrook shoppers also tend to shop at the supermarkets and stores at Glenn Dale, slightly to the east on Route 564, or drive east approximately 5 mi to Bowie, with its large shopping complexes such as the Bowie Town Center.

Lanham-Seabrook
Lanham, Maryland, an older community, lies to the west on both sides of the Washington Beltway. Within the Lanham-Seabrook area, there is only one post office (20706), located a half mile east of Seabrook Station on route 564, which both towns must share. As a result, since the post office has been designated "Lanham", all mail to both the Seabrook and Lanham area is town-designated as "Lanham" or "Lanham-Seabrook".

Government
Prince George's County Police Department District 2 Station in Brock Hall CDP, with a Bowie postal address, serves the community.

The U.S. Postal Service operates the Lanham Seabrook Post Office in Lanham CDP.

Education
Prince George's County Public Schools serves Seabrook.

Zoned elementary schools serving the CDP include Robert Frost, Gaywood, Magnolia, and Catherine T. Reed.

Thomas Johnson Middle School serves most of Seabrook CDP while Greenbelt Middle School serves a portion.

DuVal High School serves most of Seabrook CDP while Eleanor Roosevelt High School serves a portion.

Notable people

 * Rodney McGruder, NBA player
 * Quinn Ojinnaka, professional wrestler and former American football player

title: Seabrook, Maryland


text:
International Workers League – Fourth International

The International Workers League (Fourth International) (Liga Internacional de los Trabajadores (Cuarta Internacional), or LITci; Liga Internacional dos Trabalhadores - Quarta Internacional, or LIT-QI), also known as IWLfi, is a Morenist Trotskyist international organisation.

Overview
The group's origins lie in the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI). Moreno's supporters followed the American Socialist Workers Party in leaving the ICFI in 1963 to form the reunified Fourth International (USFI). In 1969, the USFI voted to support guerrilla war in Latin America. Moreno's group opposed this. It was reduced to sympathiser status.

While critical of the Sandinistas, Moreno's group sent a Simon Bolivar Brigade to Nicaragua to aid the Civil War, with the aim of building a revolutionary party there. This brigade was opposed by the reunified Fourth International because it operated outside the discipline of the FSLN; the only other Trotskyists to participate were Pierre Lamberts' Organising Committee for the Reconstruction of the Fourth International. Forty non-Nicaraguan members of the Brigade were expelled from the country by the FSLN. Almost immediately, Moreno's and Lambert's tendencies joined to form the Parity Committee for the Reconstruction of the Fourth International. However, Moreno's supporters withdrew in 1981 complaining that Lambert had links to trade union bureaucrats, and in 1982 formed the "International Workers League (Fourth International)". In addition to their former supporters, this also attracted groups in Peru and Venezuela which split from the Lambertist currents.

The group campaigned for the victory of Argentina in the Falklands War, for the non-payment of foreign debt, and for the "defeat of imperialism in the Gulf War." In the mid-1990s, it helped launch Workers' Aid to Bosnia and began working with the Workers International to Rebuild the Fourth International, although that group is now inactive.

Disagreements following the death of Moreno led several sections to leave the international, while others split. Those who left founded the International Centre of Orthodox Trotskyism (CITO in Spanish). The majority of this group rejoined the International Workers League in 2005, the minority forming the International Socialist League.

In 2021 the Chilean section of the IWLfi elected a member to the constitutional convention. María Rivera was elected in district 8 (Santiago West) as part of The List of the People.

The LITci publishes the bulletin International Courier (Correo Internacional) and the journal Marxism Alive (Marxismo Vivo or Le Marxisme Vivant), both in various languages, principally Spanish.


text:
Talk:Illuminati order

This article has been submitted in the past and deleted, with NO offer to help reformat/rewrite and no sincere or serious attempt the verify the research, yet articles like the one that stands at New Black Panthers have remained.

If our Black Nationalist Brothers can continue and otherwise propagate with out question from wikipedia sysops, why does the Illuminati Order and related articles not pass their litmus test?

Illuminati

title: Talk:Illuminati order


text:
Croatoan

Croatoan may refer to:

 * Croatoan Island (now Hatteras Island) on the Outer Banks of North Carolina
 * Croatan tribe, alternately spelled "Croatoan"
 * The word "Croatoan", found carved into a tree on Roanoke Island at the site of the Lost Colony in 1590
 * "Croatoan" (Ellison), a 1975 short story by Harlan Ellison
 * "Croatoan" (Supernatural), an episode of the U.S. television series
 * Croatoan, a character in the Syfy series Haven played by William Shatner

title: Croatoan


text:
Johann Trollmann

Johann Wilhelm "Rukeli" Trollmann (27 December 1907 – April 1944) was a German Sinti boxer.

Trollmann became famous in the late 1920s. On 9 June 1933, he fought for the German light-heavyweight title and although he clearly led by points over his opponent Adolf Witt, the fight was judged "no result". The audience rebelled, and the Nazi officials were forced to acknowledge Trollmann as the victor. However, six days later he was stripped of the title. A new fight was scheduled for 21 July, with Gustav Eder as Trollmann's opponent. Trollmann was threatened that he had to change his "dancing" style or lose his licence. Trollmann arrived the day of the match with his hair dyed blonde and his face whitened with flour, the caricature of an Aryan. He took the blows of his opponent as he was asked for five rounds before he collapsed.

The persecution of Sinti and Roma in Germany dramatically increased in the following years. Sterilization often preceded their internment in concentration camps, and Trollmann too underwent this operation. In 1939 he was drafted into the Wehrmacht, and fought on the eastern front. He was wounded in 1941 and was returned to Germany as a result. The Gestapo arrested him in June 1942, and he was interned in Neuengamme concentration camp. He tried to keep a low profile, but the camp commandant had been a boxing official before the war and recognized Trollmann. He used Trollmann as a trainer for his troops during the nights. The prisoners committee decided to act, as Trollmann's health deteriorated. They faked his death and managed to get him transferred to the adjacent camp of Wittenberge under an assumed identity. The former star was soon recognized and the prisoners organized a fight between him and Emil Cornelius, a former criminal and hated Kapo (a prisoner given privileges for taking on responsibilities in the camp, often a convict working for a reduced sentence or parole). Trollmann won, Cornelius sought revenge for his humiliation and forced Trollmann to work all day until he was exhausted, before attacking and killing him with a shovel. Trollmann was 36 years old.

Rehabilitation and commemoration

In 2003, the German boxing federation officially recognised Trollmann as the winner of the 1933 championship.

On 9 June 2010, the anniversary of his championship fight, the German artist collective Bewegung Nurr erected a temporary memorial "9841" in the Berlin Victoria Park to honour Trollmann. The memorial was also displayed the following year in Hannover and in Dresden in 2012 for six weeks. The title refers to Trollmann's prison number.

In 2015, the Italian alternative rock band C.F.F. e il Nomade Venerabile released the song Come fiori dedicated to Trollmann. This song was the inspiration for the theathral show My Inv(f)erno... gypsy life which opened the X edition of the International TeatroLab Festival at the Tagliavini theatre in Novellara in March 2019.

In 2016, Dario Fo, recipient of the 1997 Nobel Prize in Literature, published the book Razza di zingaro based on Trollmann's life.

In 2022, the German television series Babylon Berlin season four, a fictional version of Trollmann is portrayed by Hannes Wegener and is revealed to be the half-brother of one of the series' leads, Lotte Ritter. A fight takes place between Trollman and Willy Bolze, who in real life was Trollman's first professional boxing opponent. The dates are different in the show with their fight taking place in 1931 instead of 1929.

title: Johann Trollmann


text:
Josef Lhévinne

Josef Lhévinne (13 December 1874 – 2 December 1944) was a Russian pianist and piano teacher. Lhévinne wrote a short book in 1924 that is considered a classic: Basic Principles in Pianoforte Playing. Asked how to say his name, he told The Literary Digest it was lay-VEEN.

Biography
Joseph Arkadievich Levin (the name was altered in western Europe by a manager who thought "Lhévinne" more distinctive and less Jewish) was born into a Jewish family of musicians in Oryol south of Moscow. He studied at the Imperial Conservatory in Moscow under Vasily Safonov. He made his public debut at the age of 14 with Ludwig van Beethoven's Emperor Concerto in a performance conducted by his musical hero Anton Rubinstein. He graduated at the top of a class that included both Sergei Rachmaninoff and Alexander Scriabin, winning the gold medal for piano in 1892. In 1895 Levin won the Second International Anton Rubinstein Competition held in Berlin, emerging as the favoured pianist in a group of thirty-three candidates with his performance of Rubinstein's Piano Concerto No. 5 in E-flat major.

In 1898, Levin married Rosina Bessie, a fellow Moscow Conservatory student, a pianist and winner of the gold medal for piano in her year. The two began to give concerts together, a practice that lasted until his death. Faced with antisemitism and the political turbulence of the Russian Revolution, they moved to Berlin in 1907. There Lhévinne gained a reputation as one of the leading virtuosi and teachers of his day. They were declared enemy aliens at the outbreak of World War I and became trapped there. They had lost what money they had saved in Russian banks in the 1917 Revolution and were unable to perform in concerts due to the war. They endured years of hardship, surviving on the poor income from a handful of students.

After the war they were at last free to leave Germany, and in 1919 emigrated to New York City in the United States. Lhévinne continued his concert career and also taught piano at the Juilliard School. Regarded as one of the supreme technicians of his day by virtually all of his more famous contemporaries (even Vladimir Horowitz admired his pianistic command), he never achieved their level of success with the public. He may have made his excellence look and sound too easy, but he also enjoyed teaching more than performing. He settled into a life of concert tours and teaching. Lhévinne spent time each summer starting in 1922, at Bonnie Oaks, relaxing from public life and sometimes teaching young musicians. He died suddenly in New York, from a heart attack in 1944 a few days short of his 70th birthday.

Recordings
Lhévinne made only a few recordings, some of which are considered to be examples of perfect technique and musical elegance. The discs of the Chopin Études Op. 25, Nos. 6 & 11 recorded for RCA Victor in 1935 and Schulz-Evler's arrangement of Johann Strauss II's Blue Danube Waltz, also for Victor in 1928, are legendary among pianists and connoisseurs. His piano roll of Schumann's Papillons Op.2 and 1935 recording of Schumann's Toccata Op.7 are considered some of the definitive performances of these works. In the words of Harold C. Schonberg: "His tone was like the morning stars singing together, his technique was flawless even if measured against the fingers of Hofmann and Rachmaninoff, and his musicianship was sensitive." Lhévinne made a number of piano rolls in the 1920s for Ampico, a collection of which were recorded and released on the Argo label in 1966. Lhévinne also recorded three times for the Welte-Mignon reproducing piano. He recorded Mozart's Sonata for Two Pianos in D major K.448, with his wife Rosina for RCA Victor in 1935.

Literature

 * Basic Principles in Pianoforte Playing (1972), Dover Publications, New York, ISBN 0-486-22820-7 (Repr. d. Ausg. Philadelphia, Penn. 1924)

Notable students

 * Stell Andersen
 * Lyell Barbour
 * John Browning
 * Mildred Portney Chase
 * Sascha Gorodnitzki
 * Stanley Hummel
 * Byron Janis
 * Adele Marcus
 * Ruth Slenczynska
 * Brooks Smith
 * Harold Triggs
 * Paul Wells
 * Nannie Louise Wright

title: Josef Lhévinne


text:
The Ghost of Tom Joad

The Ghost of Tom Joad is the eleventh studio album by American singer-songwriter Bruce Springsteen, released on November 21, 1995, by Columbia Records. His second primarily acoustic album after Nebraska (1982), The Ghost of Tom Joad reached the top ten in two countries, and the top twenty in five more, including No. 11 in the United States. It was his first studio album to fail to reach the top ten in the US in over two decades. The album won the Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Folk Album.

Composition
Springsteen wrote and recorded the album between March and September, 1995, at Thrill Hill West, his home studio in Los Angeles, California. Following that year's studio reunion with the E Street Band and the release of Greatest Hits, Springsteen's writing activity had increased significantly, resulting in this album, which consists of seven solo tracks and five band tracks.

Most tracks are backed by acoustic guitar work and the lyrics are generally a somber reflection of life in the mid-1990s in America and Mexico. The character of Tom Joad entered the American consciousness in John Steinbeck’s 1939 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, The Grapes of Wrath, set against the economic hardships of the Great Depression. This spawned a film version starring Henry Fonda, which in turn inspired folk singer Woody Guthrie to pen "The Ballad of Tom Joad".

Springsteen was also influenced by Dale Maharidge and Michael Williamson's 1985 study of homelessness, Journey to Nowhere: The Saga of the New Underclass. The album's release was followed by Springsteen's solo acoustic Ghost of Tom Joad Tour, which ran from 1995 to 1997 and took place in mostly small venues.

Release
The Ghost of Tom Joad debuted at number eleven on the US Billboard 200 chart, with 107,000 copies sold in its first week. However, it broke a string of eight consecutive Top 5 studio albums in the United States for Springsteen. The album won the 1997 Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Folk Album.

Critical reception
The Ghost of Tom Joad received mostly favorable reviews, but also drew some sharp criticism. Mikal Gilmore of Rolling Stone called it "Springsteen's best album in ten years," and considered it "among the bravest work that anyone has given us this decade." He characterised it as Springsteen's "first overtly social statement since Born in the U.S.A.", and as having "an obvious kinship with Spingsteen’s 1982 masterwork, Nebraska", the artist's first acoustic album. Bill Wyman of The Chicago Reader expressed disappointment that "Springsteen can be so literal that it's hard to appreciate some of the record's subtleties." He criticized the album for being "stolidly depoppified to ensure that no one will derive actual pleasure from it."

In The Village Voice's annual Pazz & Jop critics poll for the year's best albums, The Ghost of Tom Joad placed at No. 8. Robert Christgau, the poll's creator, simultaneously commended and criticized the album for being "the most courageous and the most depressing of the year," pointing out that Springsteen was the only artist in the poll's Top 40 "to directly address the war on the poor (and, increasingly, what is called the middle class) that is now the political agenda of the industrialized world." He also took aim at what he said was Springsteen's choice "to muffle his songs, so that only those who really want to hear their despair will bother trying." Christgau lamented that the "tunes, arrangements, and mysteriously praised 'phrasing' aren’t just forbiddingly minimal — often they’re rather careless", and dubbed the album "a bore".

Track listing
All songs are written by Bruce Springsteen.

Unreleased outtakes
Twelve of the 22 songs recorded during the album's sessions made the final cut while "Dead Man Walkin'" was released on the soundtrack for the movie Dead Man Walking and later on The Essential Bruce Springsteen and "Brothers Under the Bridge" was released on Tracks. "I'm Turning Into Elvis" and "It's the Little Things That Count" remain unreleased; however, they were performed live while "Idiot's Delight" and "I'm Not Sleeping" were also performed live and along with "1945" and "Cheap Motel" were co-written with Joe Grushecky, who recorded the four songs for his 1997 album Coming Home.
 * "Cynthia"
 * "Tiger Rose"
 * "I'm Turning Into Elvis"
 * "It's the Little Things That Count"
 * "Idiot's Delight"
 * "I'm Not Sleeping"
 * "1945"
 * "Cheap Motel"

Personnel
Credits as listed in the album liner notes.

Musicians
 * Bruce Springsteen – vocal (tracks 1-12), guitar (tracks 1-12) , harmonica (tracks 1, 10) , keyboard (tracks 3, 5-7, 11, 12)
 * Danny Federici – keyboard (tracks 1, 2, 8, 10), accordion (track 10)
 * Chuck Plotkin – keyboard (track 4)
 * Gary Mallaber – drums (tracks 1, 2, 4, 8, 10), percussion (tracks 2, 4)
 * Marty Rifkin – pedal steel guitar (tracks 1, 2, 4, 10)
 * Garry Tallent – bass (tracks 1, 8)
 * Jim Hanson – bass (tracks 2, 4)
 * Jennifer Condos – bass (track 10)
 * Soozie Tyrell – violin (tracks 2, 4, 8, 10), backing vocal (track 10)
 * Lisa Lowell – backing vocal (track 10)
 * Patti Scialfa – backing vocal (track 10)

Technical

 * Bruce Springsteen, Chuck Plotkin – production
 * Toby Scott – engineering and mixing
 * Greg Goldman – engineering assistant
 * Gary Myerberg – technical maintenance
 * Shari Sutcliff – musician contracts
 * Terry Magovern – research
 * Sandra Choron – art direction
 * Harry Choron – art production
 * Eric Dinyer – cover art
 * Pam Springsteen – interior photographs

title: The Ghost of Tom Joad


text:
Walk Two Moons

Walk Two Moons is a novel written by Sharon Creech, published by HarperCollins in 1994 and winner of the 1995 Newbery Medal. The novel was originally intended as a follow-up to Creech's previous novel Absolutely Normal Chaos; but, the idea was changed after she began writing it. The book is often taught in elementary and middle schools across the world since the book is considered a classic example of what it means to judge, come to terms with loss, and connecting with the people who surround us.

Plot
The novel is narrated by a 13-year-old girl named Salamanca Hiddle (Sal). She and her grandparents are from Bybanks, Kentucky, a fictional town based on Quincy, Kentucky, but they are currently renting a house in Euclid, Ohio. Sal's mother has recently left Sal's father, and Sal's grandparents are taking her on a cross-country road trip to Lewiston, Idaho to see her mother. Sal loves nature and was very close to her mother before she left. On the trip, Sal entertains her grandparents by telling a story about her friend in Euclid, Ohio, Phoebe Winterbottom, whose mother suddenly disappeared and left their family too, and about Ben Finney, with whom Sal begins a romantic relationship. Throughout the book, as Sal's story unfolds and their car travels west, she reveals more details about Phoebe, and why her story reminds Salamanca of her own. The more she tells her grandparents of Phoebe's story, the more she feels like her story is less connected to Phoebe's story. When Sal reaches the Missouri River, her grandmother, or referred to as Gram, is bitten by a Cottonmouth snake. Sal reaches Coeur d'Alene while Gram suffers a stroke and has to stay in a hospital. Gramps wants to stay with Gram, but having already taught Sal to drive on their farm, he gives her the car keys so she can reach her mother in Lewiston. After a tense four-hour drive along a winding road, Sal reaches Lewiston and visits her mother’s grave, finally coming to terms with her mother’s death in a bus crash over a year ago. When she gets back, it is revealed that Gram has died. At the end of the novel, Sal and her family move back to Bybanks and Sal mentions that their friends from Euclid are planning a visit.

Themes
The major themes in the story include the development of new relationships, dealing with grief, love, death, cultural identity, women's roles as mothers and wives, the hardships of life, and the adventures of misunderstandings and coming to terms with reality. Creech drew on her background for many of the book's themes and images, including Sal's love of nature, her relationship with her mother, and the road trip to Idaho that frames the narrative. In an interview, Creech said that she found the aphorism that gives the book its title ("Don't judge a man until you've walked two moons in his moccasins") in a fortune cookie.

Sharon Creech is not indigenous, though she claims a vague, Native heritage. Indigenous Americans have expressed disappointment in the stereotypical and romanticized depiction of Native Americans in Walk Two Moons. Debbie Reese on Creech's authority to write about Indigenous Americans: "She's an outsider to Native culture, trying to write a story as if she's an insider. But her story is based on outsider's writings, and outsider's understandings, and it doesn't work... the Indian content doesn't really matter. It is simply a device, or, a decoration on a story about a young girl coming to terms with life and death."

Creech on her indigenous heritage and inspiration: "My cousins maintain that one of our ancestors was an American Indian. As a child, I loved that notion, and often exaggerated it by telling people that I was a full-blooded Indian. I inhaled Indian myths...  I crept through the woods near our house, reenacting these myths, and wishing, wishing, for a pair of soft leather moccasins. (I admit --but without apology--that my view of American Indians was a romantic one.)"

Awards
In 1995, Walk Two Moons won the Newbery Medal, the United Kingdom Reading Association Award, and the United Kingdom's Children's Book Award. In 1996, it received the WH Smith Mind-Boggling Book Award. In 1997, it also won the Literaturhaus Award, Austria, and the Young Adult Sequoyah Award.

title: Walk Two Moons


text:
Human Accomplishment

Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 is a 2003 book by the political scientist Charles Murray. Surveying outstanding contributions to the arts and sciences from ancient times to the mid-twentieth century, Murray attempts to quantify and explain human accomplishment worldwide in the fields of arts and sciences by calculating the amount of space allocated to them in reference works, an area of research sometimes referred to as historiometry.

Index scores
Murray ranks the leading 4,000 innovators in several fields of human accomplishment from 800 BC to 1950. In each field Murray identifies a number of sources (leading encyclopedias, histories and surveys) providing information about the leading figures in the field. The rankings are made from information in these sources. A raw score is determined based on how many sources mention and on how much space in each source is devoted to a person. Then these raw scores are normalized so that the lowest score is 1 and the highest score is 100. The resulting scores are called "Index Scores".

Analysis
According to Murray's analysis, accomplishment has not been uniformly distributed. For example, in Italian Renaissance, accomplishment was concentrated in Florence and Venice. In the British Isles, around London, the industrial north, and lowland Scotland. Another result of his analysis was that most innovation has been accomplished by men, not women, and Europeans, not other ethnic and cultural groups.

There is a relationship between closeness to elite universities and human accomplishment (but not between non-elite universities and accomplishment). Furthermore, innovation is self-reinforcing: Where there has been innovation, likely more will occur.

The book argued that "Streams of accomplishment are fostered by political regimes that give de facto freedom of action to their potential artists and scholars". This means freedom of expression and innovation. It does not necessarily mean democracy although totalitarianism suppressed innovation. War and civil unrest did not affect innovation.

Religious liberty increased innovation. Jews had "sparse representation in European arts and sciences through the beginning of the 19C", but within a century Jews were disproportionately represented (except in astronomy). This coincided with the emancipation of Jews who earlier had been denied legal rights and access to universities and public office.

The highest scoring woman in a category was Murasaki Shikibu among Japanese literature. The highest in western literature was Virginia Woolf. The highest in science was Marie Curie.

Decline
Murray argued that the world's per capita progress in the sciences and especially the arts have declined, usually starting sometimes in the nineteenth century. In part this is due to diminishing returns. In the final chapters he abandons empirical analysis, writing "I cannot supply quantitative measures", and the analysis is "less quantitative, more speculative, and definitely more opinionated." He argued, based on Aristotle in the Nicomachean Ethics, that innovation is increased by beliefs that life has a purpose and that the function of life is to fulfill that purpose; by beliefs about transcendental goods and a sense of goodness, truth and beauty; and by beliefs that individuals can act efficaciously as individuals, and a culture that enables them to do so. Murray argued that there is an absence of this in the current secularist and nihilist society which has caused the decline.

Reviews
The American Library Association: "Achievements that require mental and spiritual effort are the highest forms of human endeavor, Murray says. He has scanned the most reputable biographical dictionaries and histories of the arts, philosophy, and sciences to find who and what, during 800 B.C.-1950, are mentioned in them. He came up with 4,139 persons and a list of events and ponders 20 persons in each of nine scientific, three philosophic, and nine artistic fields who were most extensively covered in the resources. More than 80 percent are "dead white males," and Murray carefully examines why. The greatest achievements of India, China, Japan, and Islam occurred well before the West took off during the Renaissance, and each of those cultures valued duty, family, and consensus, whereas the West prefers individualism, the sine qua non of scientific debate and discovery. Further, the scientific method was a set of Western "meta-inventions" (Murray's term) that arose, fortunately, simultaneously with the ratification of Thomism, with its dual emphasis on faith and reason, by the most important cultural force in the West, the Roman Catholic Church. Of overarching importance to great achievements in any culture, Murray argues, are the sense that life has purpose and belief in ideals of beauty, truth, and goodness. This book probably won't get Murray in as much hot water as The Bell Curve (1994) did. Then again, with its speculations that the rate of great achievements has slowed since 1800 and that the arts are in a very bad way, maybe it will."

title: Human Accomplishment


text:
League for the Fourth International

The League for the Fourth International (LFI) is a Trotskyist international organization that has bases in Mexico, Brazil, Italy, the United States and Germany. All of these are very small and based in at most one or two cities. Like other international Trotskyist groups, it fights for "international socialist revolution, the conquest of power by the working class, led by its Leninist party."

History
Led by Jan Norden, it was formed by members who were expelled from the Spartacist League's international the International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist) on June 8, 1996 and the Grupo Espartaquista de México, forming the Internationalist Group. In addition to which the new Internationalist Group had links with the Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil which had been developing fraternal relations with the Spartacist League. The Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil, following the ICL's break of fraternal relations with it, signed with the Internationalist Group their "Joint Statement of Commitment to Reforge the Fourth International".

In early 1998, the ICL expelled the Permanent Revolution Faction from the Ligue trotskyste de France and at the same time declared that the key statement of the founding program of the Fourth International had been superseded.

In April 1998, the Internationalist Group, Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil and the Permanent Revolution Faction formed the League for the Fourth International, whose founding statement was Reforge the Fourth International (6 April 1998).

In 2004, the LFI's Dutch section, consisting of only one member, left to join the International Bolshevik Tendency.

Actions
The leading member is Jan Norden, former editor of the Spartacist League newspaper Workers Vanguard and founder of the LFI's American section, the Internationalist Group. Their English language newspaper is called The Internationalist.

title: League for the Fourth International


text:
Wu Cheng'en

Wu Cheng'en (, c. 1500–1582 or 1505–1580 ), courtesy name Ruzhong (汝忠), was a Chinese novelist, poet, and politician during the Ming dynasty. He is considered by many to be the author of Journey to the West, one of the Classic Chinese Novels.

Biography
Wu was born in Lianshui, Jiangsu province, and later moved to Huai'an. Wu's father, Wu Rui, had had a good primary education and "shown an aptitude for study", but ultimately spent his life as an artisan because of his family's financial difficulties. Nevertheless, Wu Rui continued to "devote himself to literary pursuits", and as a child, Wu acquired the same enthusiasm for literature—including classical literature, popular stories, and anecdotes.

He took the imperial examinations several times in attempt to become a mandarin, or imperial official, but never passed, and did not gain entry into the imperial university in Nanjing until middle age; after that he did become an official and had postings in both Beijing and Changxing County, but he did not enjoy his work, and eventually resigned, probably spending the rest of his life writing stories and poems in his hometown. During this time he became an accomplished writer, producing both poetry and prose, and became friends with several prominent contemporary writers. However, Wu remained poor throughout his life and did not have any children. Dissatisfied with the political climate of the time and with the corruption of the world, he spent much of his life as a hermit.

Journey to the West
Wu's likely authorship of Journey to the West is his main claim to fame. The novel was published anonymously in 1592, and Wu did not refer to the work in any of his other writings. Wu is thought to have published the work in anonymity, as was usual at the time, because of the ill repute of fiction as vulgar literature. There was a trend in Chinese literary circles to imitate the classical literature of the Qin, Han, and Tang dynasties, written in Classical Chinese. However, late in life, Wu went against this trend by writing the novel, Journey to the West, in the vernacular tongue. For over three centuries most of China remained unaware of its authorship, although the people of his hometown attributed the novel to him early on.

However, in the early 20th century, Hu Shih and his students conducted textual analysis and research into Qing dynasty records and suggested Wu as the author. In his Introduction to Arthur Waley's abridgment, Monkey, Dr. Hu, then ambassador to the United States, reported that a 1625 gazetteer, a form of local history, from Wu's hometown claimed Wu as the author. The Dictionary of Ming Biography comments that "the identity of the author of the novel is thus still open to question," and that Wu "probably would have remained in oblivion had it not been for this probably erroneous ascription."

Brown University China literature scholar David Lattimore said: "The Ambassador's confidence was quite unjustified. What the gazetteer says is that Wu wrote something called The Journey to the West. It mentions nothing about a novel. The work in question could have been any version of our story, or something else entirely." Translator W. J. F. Jenner points out that although Wu had knowledge of Chinese bureaucracy and politics, the novel itself doesn't include any political details that "a fairly well-read commoner could not have known." Furthermore, it is unknown how much of the novel was created, and how much was simply compiled and edited, since much of the legend behind Journey to the West already existed in folk tales.

Anthony C. Yu, in his introduction to his complete translation, states that the identity of the author, as with so many other major works of Chinese fiction, "remains unclear" but that Wu remains "the most likely" author.

Other works
In addition to Journey to the West, Wu wrote numerous poems and stories (including the novel A Record of the Tripods of Emperor Yu 禹鼎记, which includes a preface by Wu), although most have been lost. Some of his work survives because, after his death, a family member gathered as many manuscripts as he could find and compiled them into four volumes, entitled Remaining Manuscripts of Mr. Sheyang 射阳先生存稿. Some of his poetry was included in contemporary anthologies such as A Digest of Ming Poetry and A Record of Ming Poetry.

Both his poetry and his prose have been described as "stubborn" and critical of society's corruption, and in one of his few surviving poems Wu describes himself as having a "defiant spirit". Wu's poetry focused on the expression of emotions, and for this reason his work has been compared to that of Li Bai, although even the poems that he published with his name attached still were not quite modeled on the classical styles (although they were not as "vulgar" as Journey to the West). In addition to using his writing to critique society, Wu also took pride in the worldly nature of his work, as opposed to the more fantastic writings of some contemporaries; in the preface to A Record of the Tripods of Emperor Yu (禹鼎志) he wrote, "My book does not just deal with the supernatural; it deals with the foibles of men too."

title: Wu Cheng'en