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Talk:Magneto (Marvel Comics)/Archive 1

Flight
What does it mean that Magneto can fly by manipulating "the electromagnetic particles around him"? Do the particles get polarised? I always thought that he flew by moving his metal suit...

Movie apperences
THe Appearences in other media section is too long, plot summaries fo the movie should NOT be in this section, they belong on the movies own page. Mishy dishy 21:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Magneto's bio
I was an avid collector of X-men as a kid and I distinctly remember, but don't recall which volume, that Eric Lensherr aka Magneto and his family were persecuted by Nazis and thrown into concentration camp for being Romany (Gypsy), not Jewish, as told by Prof. Xavier. Just food for thought and fact-finding..can anyone verify? 67.89.16.4 05:21, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Check out the 'Magneto is Jewish' FAQ. --DrBat 00:07, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That FAQ uses alot of congecture, Magento has been referred to as gypsy in comics (most recently in the Black Panther House Of M issure, Most Expliciltly in the Magneto 0 issue that was around 93 iirc)

The FAQ does not use a lot of conjecture. It uses facts. Historical facts and actual quotes from the comics. Magneto was supposed to be Jewish until then Marvel EinC Bob Harras got nervous about making a Jewish Magneto a major villain again in Fatal Attractions (a crossover from 1992), and he and Nicieza (a writer) and another editor, Kelly Corvese, decided to attempt to change Magneto's Jewish identity. Nicieza basically pulled another ethnicity out of the hat, and tried to make it fit, but it didn't fit, and Marvel realized that it was wrong to change a Jewish character, a Holocaust survivor, into another ethnicity and change Holocaust history to do it. So, the attempted retcon was explained in X-MEN #72, and Magneto's Jewish identity restored. "Magneto 0" is a reprint issue, that contains several different stories, including the reference to Magneto's forged "gypsy" identity from UNLIMITED #2 (1992). BLACK PANTHER House of M is an alternate reality created by Wanda and Pietro, who self-identify with being Roma. It is also completely different in it's treatment of Magnus and Doom from the other series in the HOUSE OF M Universe. Whether Axel Alonso (the editor) should have known better, or whether the author, Hudlin, deliberately or accidentally made the mistake, is unknown, but Hudlin is notorious for ignoring, or being ignorant of, continuity. Magneto never was a gypsy. Claremont has affirmed he meant Magneto to be Jewish in 1982, when the character's backstory was created. Dave Cockrum, who did the art for UNCANNY #150 the comic where Magneto's Holocaust background was established, affirmed that he, editor Lousie Brown Simonson, and Claremont meant Magneto to be Jewish. Editor Harras knew he was Jewish when he tried to change the ethnicity in UNLIMITED #2. And today, Joe QUesada has made it clear, that the character is Jewish.

I found in Marvel Directorythat his real name is Magnus. Is this true? This site is supposed to know everything. [[User:mael0010|mael0010] 12:33, 30 Aug 2005 (UTC)

No one knows his real name for certain. He goes by Magnus most of the time. At one point his real name was established to be Erik Magnus Lehnsherr; later it was stated that this name was an alias, despite the fact that telepaths digging around in his head for his identity called him this name (Legion Quest #4). The movie has stated that his name is Erik Lehnsherr, so it is most likely that even though they tried to establish it as a false identity, Marvel may be stuck with the "Erik Magnus Lehnsherr" identity.

By the way, I apologize to anyone reading my notes at the bottom of this page -- I'm not familiar with how to use Wikipedia, so I didn't sign and now I don't know how to edit my own comment. I'm Alara Rogers and I wrote the lengthy material about why, exactly, Magneto is probably Jewish down at the bottom of the page.

66.93.119.67 02:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC) Alara Rogers

Comics themselves disput Magneto being Jewish, as I mention above for a recent mention of his Gypsy roots see the House of M issue of Black Panther.

The comics themselves do not dispute Magneto being Jewish. They affirm Magneto is Jewish. House of M BLACK PANTHER is set in an alternate unvierse created by Magneto's two grown children, who were raised as gypsies. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that Magneto himself allowed the false identity to be used to deceive the House of M Doom, in order to keep him on a leash for as long as possible -- which was the point of the story. The only mention of Magneto's "gypsy" roots was in a comic from 1992 called UNLIMITED #2, in which the character Gabrielle Haller gives a speech as to what she believes is a genuine biography of Magneto, that she has come across. As was revealed 8 years ago, in X-MEN #72, this information was false. Magneto had a forger, Georg Odekirk, create a FALSE identity of "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte Gypsy" some 25 years ago, in order for him to hide from the authorities who were chasing him (he was wanted for murder), and to seek his wife Magda, a Roma, who had run away from him. Magneto never was a Gypsy, or Roma, it was a forged identity. The panels where Gabrielle Haller revealas the forged and false information were reprinted in a comic book called "Magneto 0."

Days of Future Past
Why isn't the Days of Future Past Magneto (when he's in a wheelchair and an ally of the X-Men) mentioned under Alternate Versions? I mean, Magneto IS a major character in that possible future. Surely you cannot mean that this story arc is less important than Marvel Zombies?

Fixed it myself. Now it's there.

Magneto's powers

 * Magneto's powers in the movie appear to be subtly different than in the comic books. In particular, Magneto's powers appear to only be over iron, and to have a limited range, though he is still one of the most powerful mutants on Earth.

I'm sure the "only over iron" bit is wrong - didn't the first movie have him manipulating Wolverine's adamantium bits? (Or does adamantium contain iron? My comic-book chemistry is patchy.) --Paul A 03:51 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

According to the glossary in the marvel handbook adamantium is an alloy of iron. [image link removed by owner of site image resides on, bandwidth theft isn't nice]

 * Magnetism works on more than just iron or alloys of iron, so adamantium could be an alloy with one of those other metals, or could simply be able to be manipulated by magnetism in its own right. - UtherSRG 03:27, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Cobalt and Nickel are fairly strongly affected by magnetic fields, as well; whatever adamantium is presumed to be, it certainly could be, too. Has it ever been established in the comics' continuity whether adamantium is a somehow-forgotten element, or an alloy with unusual properties, or what? FZ 15:51, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * It's a (quote) "virtually indistructible steel alloy which does not occur in nature and whose exact chemical composition is a U.S. government classified secret." (unquote) [From the Official MU Handbook v1 #15]. So it does contain iron.--SoM 02:23, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I recall in the first X-Men movie Magneto used his powers on the Statue of Liberty which is made up a lot of copper; I got the impression that the strips of metal he used to bind the team was copper.

In point of fact, Magneto's powers in the movie were more "realistic." The actual range of metals he could manipulate were those which react well to electromagnetism. This is as opposed to the comic universe, where he can manipulate even relatively inert metals such as aluminum.

I believe Magneto has the power to detect disturbances in the electro-magnetic spectrum (i.e. detecting metal or other conductors within a few mile vacinity of him. This was show in Magneto #O, I believe when a stealth suit was created to assasinate him.

 * Somebody replaced the entirety of what was there with an analysis from another site written in non-encyclopedia language, including such material as "I all but gagged over this one, but it's canon, Issue 150, so I included it."

 * I've reverted this, while retaining what seems to be the only other edit since my last edit (the Jew/gypsy edit, which seems to be correct). I suggest that any further modification of the powers section should build on what is currently there, rather than replacing it wholesale like this with something written for a different purpose. Metamagician3000 00:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Its not correct; Mags is Jewish. --DrBat 02:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

How about he is a Jewish-Gypsy? ;smirks; He can be both, and because of the lack of continuity from the writers I can settle with that. As for his powers, which should be pretty easy to comprehend. . .Magneto can manipulate ANYTHING made out of Metal (this includes Adamantium which is a metal alloy). . The more metallic the substance the more control he has over it. Look at physical properties in the Metal link if you are not familiar with metallic properties. He does no have electricity powers. In the section that describes “Magneto in X-Men the movie” for his bio, someone wrote that his powers are different in the movie- False. Would someone please edit that? He exhibits all his powers from the comics and displays no new ones. -JPhish 10:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I must disagree with you there, JPhish. The two versions are different, because comic Mags has displayed things far beyond control of the magnetic field, while movie Mags only has control over magnetically reactive metals. Movie verson doesn't exhibit enhanced strength, personal force fields, or a natural ability to block telepathic or psionic attacks. Cybertooth85 01:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah, he's displayed powers in the comics vastly beyond anything we've seen in the X-Men movies. Even in the early Stan Lee days, he had a powerful forcefield and hurled lightning-like energy. Over the years it's gone far beyond that. Metamagician3000 10:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Does Magneto have a natural resistance to psionics in the comic books? I thought it was his helmet that protected him (I know this was the case in the movies, but wasn't it stated in the comics, too?)

Magneto's death
this article whoever wrote it is very well written. i'm surprised by the depth. so magneto is dead?

 * Or so it seems... -mhr 23:58, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Make that a big "No". To the shock of absolutely everyone. -- SoM 02:26, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * By "everyone" you obviously mean "no one"

 * Which death are you talking about? Nearly every X-Men character has died so often that keeping track can become problematic. - Sh@z@M

vital stats
I note that Magneto's vital statistics include what appear to be terms from a role-playing game system ("Superhuman Class 100" strength, for example). Anyone know what this means, and if it should have caveats added as to the source? Comic book writers are rarely as rigorous with their characters' abilities as roleplaying games. :) Bryan 03:20, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * At the risk of troll baiting - I think the "vital statistics" should be removed from all of the entries. You can check out the edit history to see who added them in, and then go to various 'dispute' meta-pages to see why I don't want to jump into that pool. But if you do it, I'll support you. - UtherSRG 03:27, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * JackLynch seems to have turned his focus away from me now, so I've got room in my schedule for a new troll if it comes to that. But to make things easier to handle, I'll just do it to this article first and see what sort of reaction it provokes. Bryan 03:48, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

See Strength level (comics) for the system being employed in these vital stats. I've had an edit war with the author(s?) over trying to add some context on the fuzziness and unofficiality of such a system, but my changes seem to have finally stuck. All that said, I'm all in favor of removing the "vital stats" section from all comic characters entries. Be aware that the author(s) are pretty intransigent on the subject, and so may restore them at some point. -mhr 06:40, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * If it's just the one guy who's insisting on putting them in, and the consensus is generally against their inclusion (which it seems to be, I haven't heard anything said in their favor), then I don't mind putting in the work of an edit war if that's what it comes to. IMO it's wrong to back down to someone simply because they shout louder; I really don't think these stats belong in these articles. Bryan 07:54, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Oy, there's a lot of them. I'm going to stop at the "E"s for now, and go over to Talk:Strength level (comics) to make a list and keep coordinated on this. Bryan 08:18, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * The superhero/villain entries are very inconsistent about this. Many entries here refer to the "class 100 strength" concept from the old Marvel Universe series. I actually like these stats. I'd also like to see the writers of the comics stick to something like them ... it would give the stories more rigour.

 * Anyway, it does seem to have some official status that Magneto can enhance his strength to class 100 level. The Marvel Universe guide (the Master Edition, I think, but I'd need to check) says this, and it is evidently picked up in the roleplaying game guide quoted below (doubtful provenance or not). However, I think it sufficient to state what seems verifiable from the comics themselves, that Magneto seems to be able to enhance his strength sufficiently to exchange blows with powerful opponents such as Colossus. I wrote that before I looked at the talk page and saw this controversy, but it still seems like a reasonable compromise that I could have offered if I'd realised it was such an issue. ;)

 * Peace. Metamagician3000 14:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, I checked the Master Edition entry on Magneto and it does indeed claim that he can increase his strength through Class 100. There may have been official material on his powers since, but I haven't checked that. Anyway, I don't think this merits any changes to the entry as it currently stands. Metamagician3000 01:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

-

Removed from the article on account of being roleplaying game statistics of unknown provedence:
 * Name: Eric Magnus Lensherr
 * Aliases: Master of Magnetism, the white pilgrim
 * Group Affiliations: The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, The X-Men (former), The New Mutants (former headmaster), Acolytes (disbanded), Genoshan mutants (disbanded)
 * Hieght: 6'2"
 * Wieght: 190 lbs.
 * Hair: White
 * Eye Color: Blue-grey
 * First Appearance: X-Men #1 (vol.1) 1963
 * Origin of powers: Benevolent Mutation
 * Intelligence: Genius
 * Strength: Athlete, but can endow himself with beyond Superhuman Class 100 strength through the use of his powers. Magneto has observed being able to use his powers to lift objects such as cargo freighters and sunken submarines, each of which weighs tens of thousands of tons.
 * Stamina: Athlete, but he can use his powers to increase his stamina to the "Superhuman" level, allowing him to exert himself at peak capacity for about 24 hours.
 * Durability: Superhuman, but he can use his powers to erect force fields around his body that are highly resistant to physical damage, further increasing his durability.
 * Reflexes: Enhanced Human
 * Speed: Escape Velocity
 * Agility: Enhanced Human
 * Other powers & skills: Magneto is a mutant with the ability to manipulate the forces of magnetism. His ability to wield this power is phenomenal. He has developed it the extent that he can also wield most other forms energy and radiation. He can levitate enormous objects and erect forcefields rendering him virtually invincible. Astral projection and limited telepathy are also among his powers. He is one of the most powerful mutants on Earth. Magneto is a scientific genius and his knowledge of many areas of physics and genetic engineering have exceded that which is known by the rest of the Earth's population.

 * Nothing to do with any roleplaying game, ever. From the [i]Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe[/i], which has had various editions over the years and is used as a basic source of information by writers and artists working within Marvel, as well as by fans. A scanned version can be found here: http://www.unfluffybunny.com/cripp12/

 * My understanding was that to be 'class 100' meant to be able to lift/press 100 tons. given magneto's abilities, lifting a metal object that weighs 100 tons should be no problem for him. I doubt his body can charge itself to the point he'll be trading physical punches with the hulk... Pr1983 01:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Avalon?
Current link doesn't refer to an orbital base- perhaps delink, or else, create new page (Avalon (comics)?) and link it to the disambig page? Schissel 02:11, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Text removal
'' At one point the governments of the world collaborated in the construction of a magnetic grid designed to prevent Magneto from returning to Earth from this base, but in retaliation Magneto personally generated an electromagnetic pulse sufficient to shut down most of the machinery on Earth; it was only Magneto's reluctance to become a Hitler-like tyrant that caused him to ultimately relent. However, when the world governments threatened to wage war against his asteroid, he retaliated by attacking both a Russian city and submarine, sinking it and killing all on board.''

 * This all happened after he created Alpha the mutant (when the section takes place beforehand); the submarine is also mentioned in the next section. --DrBat 18:32, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

This seems all sorts of convoluted to me, didn't he create the EMP in defense of Avalon? I thought he'd only threatened earth with the nukes they shot at ateroid M durring the first arc of the newer (non-adjective) x-men title. Bustedbuddha 3/15/6

Reverted reverts by 131.216.104.246

From edit summary:
 * Despite fluctuations in his abilities, Magneto is always nearly as powerful as Silver Surfer.

Relevant section:
 * Although Magneto's power is not on the level of the Silver Surfer in his prime, it is for all practical purposes limitless. Magneto can lift a cargo freighter weighing 30,000 tons 50 feet into the air from a distance of 300 feet away, and this was prior to his rejuvenation from an elderly man to a man physically in his late 30's or very early 40's. Using his powers to augment his strength, he can lift up to 100 tons. Moreover, Magneto can use his magnetic powers in more than one way simultaneously. He can completely assemble a complicated machine within seconds through his powers. He can erect magnetic force fields with a high degree of impenetrability around himself for protection. Although Magneto often gestures when using his magnetic powers, he can utilize them fully even when standing totally still merely by concentrating.

This falls under the precendent above of removing RPG/Handbook stats, and numbers which cannot be substantiated, from articles. And comparasions are only useful if you can reasonably expect the reader to know (a) the Silver Surfer's power level and (b) if the Surfer's power is exactly the same, with only greater or lesser power levels to distinguish it. (a) is only slightly likely and (b) is not the case.
 * Second, when intellect is a salient feature of a villain, it is a notable power.

Other when it defines a character (as with, say, Brainiac 5 or Mister Fantastic), I say it shouldn't be in the SHB. Magneto is defined by his magnetic abilities, not his brain.

On the images: you can click on them if you want to see more. Having them any larger breaks the page layout.

Other than these, my version of the edits are usually just about being a bit clearer ("He can fire a bolt of electricity and create enough intense heat to destroy a metal door. Heat, or infrared radiation, is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, which also includes visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. Magneto can project any of these." is horribly written) - SoM 14:52, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and apparently NormanEinstein agrees with me, since he did a revert while I was typing here - SoM 14:56, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Master of Magnetism"
From User:24.253.120.206's (get a name and stop changing one word an edit) edit summary:
 * Magneto Master of Magnetism is a nom de guerre which is an alias used in battle. Refer to the Wikipedia article on alias.

And I did. And there is no Wikipedia article on alias (it's a disamb

From the Alias entry:

Adverb
 * 1. (Law) (a) Otherwise; otherwise called;—a term used in legal proceedings to connect the different names of any one who has gone by two or more, and whose true name is for any cause doubtful; as, Smith, alias Simpson. (b) At another time.

Noun
 * 1. (Law) (a) A second or further writ which is issued after a first writ has expired without effect. (b) Another name; an assumed name.

Here's the thing, I can't remember a single reference to "Magneto, Master of Magnetism," as you put it, directly. If that was common it would be the article title (as with Kang, the Conqueror. I've seen references to "THE Master of Magnetism", but that's an Epithet, not an alias or nom de guerre, and thus not a psuedonym in it's own right. If you'll pardon a movie analogy, it's a subtitle, not a title. - SoM 12:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I can't actually recall the last time that he called himself the "Master of Magnetism" - although I can recall a couple of instances where someone else called him "the self-styled 'Master of Magnetism'"; go figure. -Sean Curtin 05:04, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm currently reading through the new mutants, around when he was headmaster. I can assure you, he refers to himself as the "Master of Magnetism" about every time someone attacks him. Nom de guerre, Alias, Epithet, whatever it is, it's very much actively his. Also, I get the impression it's more like an informal Title, than an alias. He wouldn't put it down on the hotel register, but he might just list it on his resume? - Mister cope 04:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Indeed. Almost every time somebody tries to attack Magneto, he often shouts something like "You dare to attack the Master of Magnetism?". Actually, he probably spends more time describing his powers than actually using them. - Sh@z@M

3RR violations
Both DrBat and the anon user have been blocked for 12 hours dude to violations of WP:3RR. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:19, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Magneto is jewish link was broken
I never got to read the article, but i found this which i am presuming is the same thing. changed the link to the second. benmcq 19:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

IS Magneto Jewish? I always thought hew was Romany, his wife and children certainly are, his name - Eric magnus Lensherr is Romany, he shows no interest in Judaism per se, but in the Holocaust generally...

Is he Jewish? Can someone tell me where they found this out - or is it just assumption. I can't find any prove/deny on the religious/ethnic question 194.112.59.235 17:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

According to inside sources, such as the wife of artist Dave Cockrum, Paty Cockrum, the question of Magneto's ethnicity has been deliberately obfuscated as the result of a power struggle within Marvel. Although Chris Claremont intended the character to be Jewish and introduced specific details of Magneto's Holocaust history which plainly point to Magneto being Jewish, he never actually used the word. Later writers established Magneto to be a gypsy, although this contradicted the historical references. Still later, writers established that the gypsy identity was false. The whole thing is horrifically confusing, but I would suggest that you try the link above again -- it goes to my site, and I can confirm that it is up, just terribly slow to respond. You may have to click twice or hit refresh if you get "page not found." I included details as to what historical references Claremont used to indicate Magneto's ethnicity in "Significant stories" below. And I'm really sorry that I'm crap at making these edits look like everyone else's; this is the first time I've tried to add information on Wikipedia. 66.93.119.67 02:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)Alara Rogers

Significant stories
If we're going to have this section, we're going to need a lot more, including the Claremont issues (Uncanny #150, 161, 200, and the Classic X-Men backup tales, ect ect). --DrBat 04:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't think that there were any more significant stories worth mentioning, when I created the sub-section. I think I can add a few more stories, in my spare time. - -- LEC20 17:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity
"Jewish Link" broken is a Non issue, as in other pages on Wiki I've corrected Magneto's history, he's a Gypsy, not Jewish, this is referred to directly in his origin, and for things that I actually have issue numbers, it's referred to in the Black Panther part of House of M, and in many Guidebooks, as well as Magneto 0 and I think by Xavier in Fatal attractions. Magneto has only been expressly shown as jewish (to my knowledge) in 1602, which is technically a diffrent character.

as the most recent mention of him being a gypsy is from House of M, I do not think this has been "retconned"

 * 1)HoM is a different reality too, and the guy who wrote it (Hudlin), is noted for poor continuity. Again, the Jewish link should deal with all your claims. --DrBat 21:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * 2) HoM reference is by the HoM Dr.Doom based on information provided by either Pietro, Wanda, or misinformation from Magnus himself to mislead Doom, and keep him an ally for as long as possible. Hudlin may have purposely tried to mistakingly call Magneto a gypsy, or it may have been ignorance on his part, but it is easily explained. It is a FALSE reference. Magneto is Jewish.

There is no reference to Magneto being a gypsy in his origin, and it is not found in any of the Handbooks. It certainly is not referenced by Xavier in Fatal Attractions. In ULTIMATE X-MEN #2, from 1992, editor in chief Harras and writer Fabian Nicieza tried to RETCON the Jewish Magneto into being a "gypsy" mainly because editor Kelly Corvese wanted him to "match" Magda, (to him, there couldn't be a Jewish man and a Gypsy woman married in comics), and because, according to Scott Lobdell, Harras was going to make Magneto a major villain again in Fatal Attractions, and didn't want him to be Jewish any longer under those circumstances. It was an attempted retcon. It was an awkward and heavily protested attempt to remove Magneto's Jewish identity. From the start, people in the Marvel bullpen, and fans, have argued it was wrong.

Chris Claremont intended him to be Jewish, as he has stated in interviews, as Dave Cockrum has confirmed to me more than once. His history is that of a Jewish boy during the Holocaust.

Marvel realized their mistake in 1997, and to Bob Harras' enormous credit, he ordered Joe Kelly to fix the mistake, and make it clear that Magneto is NOT a gypsy in X-MEN #72. Harras also wanted the name "Erik Lehnsherr" removed, and the name "Magnus" --which may also not be Magneto's real name -- reinstated as the only known name.

As of now, Magneto is not a gypsy. Never was a gypsy. As is stated in the X-Men #72, and reitered in the most recent Handbook (November 2005), he took the FALSE identity "Erik Lehnsherr the Gyspy" in order to hide from the KGB, which was searching for him, and to try and find his wife, who had run away from, who most certainly WAS a Roma.

I have to disagree slightly with Alara about this one point; there is no confusion. The movie Magneto is certainly Jewish. That the movieverse Magneto also has the name "Erik Lehnsherr" doesn't mean anything to the comic book Magneto. These are two different universes. X-MEN #72 makes it VERY clear that Magneto is NOT a gypsy. He took a false identity as a Sinte Gypsy names "ERIK LEHNSHERR" in order to search for Magda amongst her own people, who seem to have been Sinte. The only telepath to pull the name "Lehnsherr" out of Magneto's mind seems to have been David Haller in the "Legion Quest" prelude to the Age of Apocalypse. There are a number of reasons why this might have happened. But since it is established, firmly, in continuity, that the name "Erik Lehnsherr" and the gypsy identity are false -- I repeat FALSE -- we have to find another explanation as to why David Haller found the name Lehnsherr in Magneto's mind. One thing we've speculated, is that Magneto was calling himself Erik Magnus by this time, when he immigrated to Israel.

In the latest Handbook, in the very premise of HOUSE OF M (which is HOUSE OF MAGNUS) Marvel is clearly standing by the fact that Magneto's name is MAGNUS and he is not a gypsy.

It was wrong and bigotted of those involved to try and remove Magneto's Jewish identity in the first place, and those involved realized their mistake and fixed it. Unfortunately, they did so in such a low-keyed way that it appears many readers don't get it.

People continue to cite references such as "Magneto 0" which merely reprinted UNLIMITED #2's false Magneto history, or cite something like House of M Dr. Doom, who is living in a false reality created by Pietro and Wanda, NOT Magneto.

Magneto was in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz, and he was so as a Jewish boy. His Auschwitz number identifies the date he entered Auschwitz and how he entered, and he was a Jewish prisoner.

The one thing I fail to understand is why anyone thinks it's right that two out of the five or six major villains of Marvel (Doom and Magneto) have to both be gypsies! It was a major mistake of Marvel to try to change Magneto's Jewish identity in the first place, let alone make him a Roma (which Nicieza affirmed was an ethnic identity he "pulled out of a hat" -- because he was desperate to find another victim group that was at Auschwitz that wasn't Jewish, just to purposely MAKE SURE Magneto wasn't Jewish).

The argument should be over. Marvel isn't waffling over this. It's more like, Marvel has affirmed Magneto is Jewish, but certain editors and writers have been and still are, continuously trying to eliminate Magneto's Jewish identity. Most of them just don't want a powerful and popular figure like Magneto to be Jewish.

Most recently, Editor in Chief Joe Quesada affirmed that Magneto is Jewish in a conversation with a columnist on Silver BUllet. THis was a few months ago. So, the argument is over. Magneto is Jewish. His family was Jewish. He was in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz, a Jewish command that the Nazis created to do the dirty work of the death factory. [Rivka --Feb. 3, 2006]

The issue as to whether Magneto is Jewish or Romany is a complex one, and there is textual evidence on both sides, but having done a considerable amount of research (the Magneto is Jewish FAQ is on my site), I have to come down on the side of Jewish.

Here's the issue. When Chris Claremont created the character he intended the character to be Jewish. He established certain specific facts about the Holocaust background -- not just that Magneto's entire family was slaughtered in the Holocaust, but specifically that he went to Auschwitz (Uncanny X-Men #161), that he was in the main camp at Birkenau, that he was a member of the Sonderkommando (special squad) responsible for carting the bodies of the dead from the gas chambers to the furnaces (Uncanny X-Men #274-275), and that he was still alive and in the camp when it was being shut down. (Backup story in Classic X-Men #12.) As it happens, none of this can possibly be true for a Romany. The Romany prisoners were held in the Family Camp, separate from the rest of the Auschwitz complex. They were not placed in the Sonderkommando; only Jews were. And they were all killed in August 1944, months before the camp was shut down in December 1944 (shortly before it was liberated). So while it is true that nearly a million gypsies were murdered in the Holocaust, and that many of them died at Auschwitz, the *specifics* of Magneto's background make it clear that he was supposed to be Jewish.

Claremont also specifically had the character journey to and spend much time in Israel. Israel is a homeland for Jews only; a gypsy, even with a background of having been in Auschwitz, would not have been made particularly welcome. He also had the character go to a specifically Jewish remembrance ceremony -- the Romany have their own remembrances. (Uncanny X-Men #199)

However, perhaps under editorial constraint, Claremont never actually used the word "Jewish" to describe Magneto. So in X-Men Unlimited #2, under the direction of editor-in-chief Bob Harras, Fabian Nicieza wrote a story in which Magneto's name was established as "Erik Magnus Lehnsherr" and that he was a Sinte gypsy from Danzig, in Poland on the border of Germany. "Erik Magnus Lehnsherr" is of course neither a Romany name nor a Jewish name; "Erik" is Scandinavian, and "Lehnsherr" is a German word meaning "lord of the land", which, given that neither the Romany nor the Jews were permitted to own property in the various German provinces during the Middle Ages, where most last names come from, indicates that his last name isn't Jewish or Romany either. With a name like that Magneto would have to be a mutt, with ancestors in many different European lands. It's certainly quite possible he has Romany ancestry, but the Nazis were treating him as a Jew, which strongly implies that he was one.

Finally, the point was made rather moot in X-Men #72, where writer Joe Kelly established that "Erik Magnus Lehnsherr" was an alias attached to a false identity as a gypsy, adopted by Magneto so he could search for his lost Romany wife Magda. There are some serious problems with this retcon as well -- telepaths digging into Magneto's head have identified his last name as Lehnsherr, making it difficult to believe it was a mere alias -- but this did establish that Marvel was attempting to get rid of the gypsy identity. Since then the movie has flat-out said he is Jewish *and* his name is Erik Lehnsherr, and since Marvel is likely to try to avoid making the character more dissimilar from the movie version than they have to for purposes of bringing movie fans into the comics, it is likely that Marvel will tend, overall, to retain the Jewish identity rather than the problematic Romany retcon.

The last point I'd like to make is that while Marvel has never, ever gotten the culture of the gypsies remotely right, and therefore it's nonsensical to say "Magneto doesn't behave like a gypsy" since Dr. Doom doesn't either, the fact is Marvel *already* had a would-be world conquering supervillain who *is* a gypsy, and proud of it. Making Magneto of the same ethnicity as Dr. Doom makes the characters far too similar, and so for meta-reasons having to do with the plausibility of the fictional universe, Magneto being Jewish makes more sense.

More detailed information is available at The Magneto Is Jewish FAQ, which is not down, but it is hellishly slow to respond and I may have to change web site hosts. Hit the link more than once if you get the "page not found" error. It *is* there.

 * Given the complexity of all this, shouldn't the inconsistencies/ambiguity in Magneto's presentation as Jewish or Romany be acknowledged openly in the article, rather than simply saying "he's Jewish" or "he's gypsy/Romany"? I'm not sure how best to word it, but there are facts that can be referred to, and what seems clear is that Marvel has not, to date, been totally unequivocal in its main comic-book continuity (the events of the movies are not in continuity but are a different interpretation of the X-Men world/mythos). Let's acknowledge this ambiguity rather than arguing about which view is "right". Metamagician3000 03:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * There is no "ambiguity" -- Magneto is NOT a gypsy. He never was. The confusion arises from people not knowing the history of the character, and not reading the comics. What Marvel has not done, except in 1602, is state Magneto was born Jewish. Everything about his history says he was born Jewish. This is the FACT, from X-MEN #72 -- Magneto took a false identity of a gypsy named "Erik Lehnsherr" in order to hide from the KGB and search for his wife Magda amongst her own people. [Rivka, 2-3-06]

I'm not sure how to sign this but I've made this argument a few times, I post here under the name of bustedbuddha so I'm going to leave that as my signature. For specific recent refrences you can look to the House of M issue of Black Panther, where Dr. Doom referrs to their shared heratige, or to the Magneto 0 comic (which came out durring a rash of 0 issue comics in the early 90s, all of which focused primarily of shining light on diffrent characters origins) in it he is referred to as a Romany, also the 93 and 94 serises of comic book colectible cards say he's a gypsy. Long story short Chriss Claremont is as ass (sorry to say something like this in Wiki but whatev) who typically has little to no respect for continuity, and most often has to have his recent work re-continuitied out of existence. while his early stories are good comments by him can't really be taken seriously.If you want to site what a comic writer says (as opposed to the multitude of refrences in Marvel comics to him being a gypsy) at least make it Stan Lee's word that he's jewish as he created the character and gave marvel much of it's "jewish" flavor.

As was stated above, the House of M issue of Black Panther is an ALTERNATE REALITY, created by Wanda and Pietro. Magneto is not a gypsy. He never was. As was stated several times above, the "Magneto 0" comic book is nothing but a collection of older stories, and includes the bogus reference to the forged "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte" identity from UNLIMITED #2. The "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte" reference is a forged identity. "Magneto 0" reprints that part of UNLIMITED #2 that is not a true reference. As for the 93 and 94 series of cards, which cards? The FLEER or FLAIR? Name the card, quote the reference. We pretty much have all the cards from that time, and I don't recall any such reference. Be that as it may, it doesn't matter. The backs of comic book cards are not continutiy. To call Chris Claremont names because he ESTABLISHED Magneto as Jewish, and continued to write him that way, just makes you look like the thing you called him. There are NOT a multitude of references to Magneto being a gypsy. THere is only one. UNLIMITED #2, and the recent BLACK PANTHER, written about an alternate universe by a writer who is completely ignorant of continuity. Joe Quesada has affirmed publicly that Magneto is a Jewish character. As for the references in the comics, they show that Magneto was a Jewish prisoner at Auschwitz. As for Stan Lee, he was publisher of Marvel, in New York, when Claremont gave Magneto his backstory. Magneto had NO backstory before then, and Claremont gave him one. Stan approved of this backstory, and has often since said, that he has no objections to it. Magneto is Jewish. The "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte" gypsy identity was a FALSE identity, as was revealed in X-MEN #72. Your arguments were already refuted in discussion above. It seems you didn't read it.

For Magneto is Jewish references, check:

Magneto FAQ

And:

Magneto FAQs and Background Info

I don't understand why people get confused by the clear statement by Marvel, that Magneto took a FALSE identity of "Erik Lehnsherr the gypsy" in order to escape the KGB about 25 years ago, and look for his runaway wife amongst her own people. [Rivka -- 3-16-06]

 * This is a really simple issue. You're citing that various people (Stan the Man, Chris C, Joe Q) have all said that Magneto is Jewish.  All we need is a reference for that.  The comic book evidence is convoluted and subject to the vagaries of marvel comics (layers of shrouded history, retcons etc).  The best reference would be a high profile writer stating that as fact in an interview.  Can anyone provide such a reference?  —  Es  tarriol  talk 10:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I respectfully disagree. The comic book evidence is simply not convoluted. It was clearly stated 8 years ago that Magneto took a false identity of "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte Gypsy." He is Jewish. There isn't a "shrouded" history, especially to Jewish readers. Magneto's history is that of a Jewish victim of the Nazis during the Holocaust. Claremont and other writers who did their research have represented that history accurately. There is a clear and consistent depiction of the character from UNCANNCY X-MEN #150, until one comic book in 1992 attempted a retcon.

The writer and editors of that one comic book, UNLIMITED X-MEN #2,who deliberately twisted Holocaust history and Auschwitz history to try and change Magneto's Jewish identity into that of a gypsy, were at worst irresponsible and at best, thinking to prevent a Jewish "backlash" when they turned Magneto into a major villain again in the story-arc called "Fatal Attractions." The Marvel EinC at the time Bob Harras realized this, admitted it was a mistake, and fixed it. (I have private 1997 letters from Mr. Harras and from Scott Lobdell as well as others who attested to Bob Harras' motives at the time, but I'm not going to reference these here.)

That you have writers today who don't know the history of these characters is nothing new at Marvel. The remarkable thing is how respectful, on the whole, recent Marvel writers and editors have been of Magneto's Jewish Holocaust history, thanks in no small part to editors and staff who have been careful, vigilant, and heroic in their efforts to prevent further attempts to destroy Magneto's Holocaust backstory.

Those are just the facts. As to the "vagaries of marvel comics" -- that is a valid statement but it describes the always possible problems with Marvel comic book characters. Marvel writers and editors need to be educated about their characters, and respectful of the characters' histories, but how reliable will these comic books be in the future? There have been repeated and pointed attempts by various writers and editors to remove Magneto's backstory, and/or his Jewish identity in the past, and as painful as it is to contemplate, there will continue to be those who don't accept that this powerful, charismatic, oftentimes villainous and popular character is Jewish, and/or a Holocaust survivor.

References include all those cited in the comic books themselves in the above links, plus Joe Quesada's statement during the X-MEN panel at San Diego Con 2004, this follow-up article by Cliff Meth on Silverbullet.com Past Masters,Arie Kaplan's article "How Jews Transformed Comic Books -- Part 2" which includes an interview with Chris Claremont about Magneto, numerous statements by Dave Cockrum to me on the phone, in writing, and now in print in the new book Comics Creators on X-MEN as to how he and Chris Claremont discussed for some time making Magneto Jewish when his backstory was first revealed in UNCANNY #150.

The references in the comics themselves have already been cited! Already linked! --Myst3 16:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks... I think there may be some confusion here when it comes to what I mean by "referencing". If you're not familiar with it, please see Verifiability (and also this page on citing references).  In short, it's not enough for the editors of this article to know that references exist, or to cite them broadly (say by referencing an entire comic book series, or mini-series); facts in articles here should be explicitly referenced, using one of the common reference styles in the pages I linked to earlier, and potentially contentious or misunderstood facts should be specifically linked to good references, making them personally verifiable with as little effort as possible by all readers.  I have tracked down explicit references from what you and others have provided and will be adding them to the article in the correct place – please check these changes and if you feel they do not represent verifiable fact, please edit them.
 * Please also remember that this article *should* be about Magneto as a developing comics phenomenon, not just as a "person" - all this story about the editorial decisions to change his ethnicity should be in the article. A good article should cover all aspects of a concept, and what happened to a comics character from the POV of the marvel storyline is only part of the encyclopedic topic of "Magneto".  Let me know if you'd like me to provide links to the wikipedia policies and guidelines that explain all this further.  The whole story about the attempts to make him a Gypsy and the reasons behind them, and why this character was such a sensitive subject for that... and more, the entire theme of how his actions have at times perhaps approached those of the people he hated most... these would be excellent additions to the article.
 * Thanks for providing the clarification and the links. I hope what I've said here has been constructive and does not offend.  Cheers. :-)  —  Es  tarriol  talk 17:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Anya lives
Did Anya live to become Polaris? 220.247.253.197 18:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * That is highly unlikely. We saw her burnt corpse, and Magneto buried her, for starters. --DrBat 19:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * There was a storyline where a fake(robot?) Magneto attempted to use polaris by conning her into thinking she was his daughter, however. Not only was it revealed not to have been magneto at all, but if i recall it was very firmly established that there was specifically no relation. Mister cope 22:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Austen later retconned it into Polaris really being his daughter, though.
 * Still, it has never been even implied that she is connected to Anya. --DrBat 00:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Split
I think the Ultimate Magneto section should be split into it's own article. Givin the rising number of "Ultimate Articles", Magneto seems like one of the pages that should be created. Comments? JQF 14:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I concur. Ultimate "Mags" needs his own voice, include a link into this page, and give him own page.

 * Indeed. We need more space as it is regarding his appearances in other media.

 * Yes, Ultimate has been going strong for 5+ years now, it often outsells 616. The important characters should have thier own pages.

 * And all three supporters of this are so unfamiliar with Wiki that they can't even sign their names. I don't consider their opinions to be very well informed. CovenantD 21:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * and you are so unfamilar with english that you don't know the difference between there and their. signing names has nothing to do with an opinon on a topic.

 * Not necessarily, one wouldn't trust a misinformed person's opinion. There are many 'Ultimate' articles, but all the information needed for Ul. Mag. is already in the article, and splitting it would just create a stub. BY the by, your opinion is not tkaen to heart as much as others, because you do not follow Wiki's rules. Mishy dishy 19:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * This should NOT happen, and if it does, will likely be merged. See WP:COMIC talk page among other places. --Newt ΨΦ 20:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Chris Griswold 22:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, do not split. Dr Archeville 03:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Magneto Movie Appearance
According the article, Ian McKellen will NOT be in the Magneto movie. "A Magneto movie is in the works, though Ian McKellen will not be in it." The source cited is an article from Entertainment Weekly:

''"It's going to take place from 1939 Auschwitz up to 1955 or so," says writer Sheldon Turner of his just-announced "period" prequel to Fox's X-Men franchise. An exploration of villain Magneto's "psychological roots," Turner's script will also shed light on the youthful mutant's friend-then-nemesis Charles Xavier. Just don't look for Ian McKellen, 65, to get his helmet on."''

The article in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_%28film%29, however, states that "In a recent interview, McKellen stated that both he and Patrick Stewart would in fact be portraying the younger versions of their characters through a special effect that apparently is able to make the two actors whole decades younger." The source cited is http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/704/704451p1.html. Some kind of contradiction here. Which one is correct? Both appear to be "recent".

 * The only special effect (that I can think of) that would make it so that they could both preform their roles as 20-year olds would be if they made the whole movie CGI, and got Stewart and McKellen to provide the voices. Other than that, I can't see them as the younger selves. JQF 17:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

 * The article at http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/704/704451p1.html says that the effect had already been used in X3, so we can expect to see it at Magneto (film). They did look notably younger, gotta admit.

 * Stewart especially. He looked like his old Picard days. Onikage725 00:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

A Source For The Trivia
Where did the statement "Magneto is a Class 5 Mutant" come from? If it's the film, it's just not true, he would be class 4 accourding to their scale. (see here) Can Anyone comment, I will delete it for the time being, untill I see a source, sorry if this seems a bit rude. Help plz 20:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Having watched the film again, it is clear to me that he is a Class 4 mutant, I will edit the trivia to reflect this. (He is above class three - Church Scene and Phoenix is the only Class 5 - Scene with Xavier and Logan in medical room with Jean on the table unconcious)Help plz 18:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This is true, clearly the film has him (and presumably Xavier) as Class 4. Is it worth noting in that piece of trivia that the film Magneto is significantly less powerful than the comic book one?  —  Es  tarriol  talk 10:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not remember the film describing the power level of anyone but Jean. At what point is someone else's powers, particularly Magneto's, scaled like this?--Chris Griswold 08:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Callisto mentions that there's only one class five around, if I recall correctly. That would perforce make everybody else a class four at best. CovenantD 15:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, but it doesn't classify anyone else, right?--Chris Griswold 07:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

 * When they first meet, Callisto tells Magneto that he and Pyro are the only two in the building who are above a class 3. If neither is class 5 (as Jean is the only one), they must both be class 4 (it seems a bit odd to me that Pyro is placed in the same class as Magneto, but that is the logical implication). No one else is ever specifically rated. Metamagician3000 14:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Historical Details
I adjusted Magneto's history slightly to be more accurate. He and his family were sent with others to a forested area, where they were machine-gunned in front of open graves. Young Magnus fell into the grave with his immediate family (a sister, father and mother), and appears to have been stunned but not seriously wounded. He himself speculated in NEW MUTANTS #49 that he had unconsciously used his powers for the first time to save his life. He stayed in the grave until it was covered over with lime, (he recalls this in X-MEN vol. 2 #1), and then crawled his way out. He was captured almost at once, and the Nazis sent him to Auschwitz at this point, apparently upon someone's orders. (Possibly Sinister was already influencing the SS to be on the look out for any remarkable or unusual bevavior of their victims.)

It appears that Magnus entered Auschwitz in late 1941 (we know this from his Auschwitz tattoo number), so it is highly likely that the place pictured in UNCANNY X-MEN #274 and described by Magneto in NEW MUTANTS #49, where he and his family were shot, was the Rumbala Forest. In any case, it is pictured more than once that his immediate family was shot and he was buried alive with them. The rest of his family -- which he described as extensive -- was sent to Auschwitz --probably some of them while he served in the Sonderkommando, which implies he helped put them to death.

See: Magneto Timeline

Magda's Fate
All we know is that, a few days after giving birth to the twins on Wundergore Mountain, Magda suddenly became agitated and fearful that their father would find them through her and "corrupt" them, (her apparent reasoning), and after leaving a note for Bova, she ran out into the Carpathian Mountain night, never to be seen again. She is presumed dead. And I for one hope Marvel leaves her that way. The three main sources for this information (and the birth of Pietro and Wanda) are, "Yesterday Quest" which appeared in AVENGERS #181-182 and #185-187; chapter seven in the "Evolutionary War" series, which appeared in 12 different annuals as a serial backup story a few years ago; and in VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH vol.1, #4. In V&SW #4 Magneto finally finds out that Pietro and Wanda are his children, after he (disguised as the "White Pilgrim") confronts Bova.

Powers and Abilities
Who's the wise guy who keeps adding crap to the powers and abilities section? That section was supposed to give a detailed description of Magneto's powers, but now it's starting to look like a statistic for a video game character. Unless someone can vindicate the use of listing out every single move Magneto has made, and/or explain why there is so much unproven crap (like the telepathy) in that section, I am deleting the little video game stats.

I condensed his powers down yesterday, but it got reverted. If the changes that I made were sufficient, I'll bring them back. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Please. CovenantD 13:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I see the old Powers and Abilities got reverted again... Willbyr (talk | contribs) 11:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In what issue did Magneto's force field deflect an energy blast tossed at him by Galactus? That's a pretty tall order, more so than anything the X-Men or Avengers combined could even consider throwing. Odin's Beard 01:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I haven't read the actual comic, but see http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/secret_wars/005.html The X-Men survived a Galactus attack on their base, "thanks to Magneto"... Anonymous 07:11, 08 July 2006 (EST)
 * Hey now... there's no citation needed for the Galactus thing. I already cited it!

Clean-up
This article is far too detailed, entirely unsourced, and way too long. I added the plot tag so that it can be bettered. I don't know near enough about the character to do anything but slash and burn this article if I were to try to edit it. --Newt ΨΦ 20:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Chris Griswold 22:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Seconded.   Bhissong 04:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)bhissong

 * For what its worth, the bibliography is on a separate page. Bibliography of Magneto --DrBat 23:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, while it could be cleaned up, what do you mean by it being "too detailed"? --DrBat 20:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The history seems like it gives a bit of text to every appearance of Magneto (doubtful it does, but that's what it seems), which is not necessary. Anyway, I've trimmed down the first two sections with no knowledge of the actual history, just removing what wasn't integral to the character or his notable exploits. What the history section really needs are citations of comic books these bits of "history" come from and a bit of discussion about how different writers have portrayed him.  I mean, if he's a morally complex character, I assume a lot of his actions depended on who the writer was at the time, a discussion of writers' effects on the character would be great.  I'll keep at it I guess as I get time.  These sections (including those I've already trimmed) could use more trimming. --Newt ΨΦ 18:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I reverted your edits. There seemed to be errors in them (you yourself said you don't know much about the character). For starters, the mob didn't cause the fire. They just prevented him from rescuing his daughter. I noticed some grammatical errors as well ("Magneto unable to protect her, unleashes his powers to decimate the human crowd in revenge"). Also, I don't think he consciously kills the mob. Check out http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=3803
 * Furthermore, what do you mean by no sources? The bibliography covers pretty much everything mentioned in his character history. And as for length; the character's been around for over fourty years; his history is going to be pretty long.--DrBat 19:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I would have, instead of reverting them, corrected them. The way the article was written, it reads as if he decimated the crowd on purpose (I did not add "in revenge").  The idea is to keep the length down.  As it is, this history treats Magneto as if he is a real person, which he is not.  Magneto is intellectual property owned by Marvel Comics, and thus rephrasing, paraphrasing, or restating anything that happened in his past can be construed as copyvio as you are rewriting their fiction.  Read Manual of Style (writing about fiction).  Also read WP:NOT, and WikiProject Comics/Style guidance.  By uncited, I mean the sources for the information should be cited (preferably in-line), not just listed at the end of the article, because, for example, I could not have known what issue of what comic to reference to find out whether Magneto had killed that crowd of people in cold blood (I mean, the article did say he was in control of his powers, he was unable to save his daughter, and a mob of people kept him from saving her).  As it was written, that's how it read. It's written entirely in-universe as well, and in past tense instead of literary present. This article needs to be cleaned up, and as it stands, no one is doing so.  --Newt ΨΦ 22:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If I recall, the logic follows as "it is always in the present, because anyone could be reading it". What if it's a flashback? All of the material prior to Magneto attacking the American military base was revealed in flashbacks (ie him in the Holocaust, meeting Xavier in Israel) and should be referred to in past tense, even if it is fictional.
 * Not all of the information is sourced from the internet. A lot of the information comes from the actual issues that the events occur, and most of said issues are covered in Bibliography of Magneto.
 * I don't think stating a summary of the character's history qualifies as copyvio. The stuff on UncannyXmen.Net (an unoffical fansite) is more detailed, and they've given interciews to the people who work at Marvel, so I don't think they would care. What does qualify as copyvio is the entries that describe a series issue for issue ( House of M (story), Eve of Destruction (comics), Planet Hulk )--DrBat 22:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I never said information should be from internet sites, in fact I said specific issues should be cited. Check WP:CITE, it's not good enough to just list generally the issues Magneto appears in.  The mere fact that the article doesn't tell it was a flashback, doesn't tell where the story was cited, and didn't tell that he doesn't kill these people in cold blood is proof enough that this article needs some good editing.  If the information is introduced as a flashback, let it be known in the article, also let it be known what issue the flashback occurs in. I reverted it back to my edits, please correct the information instead of replacing it with the entire, sometimes vague or incorrect original, as this has been spoken about above by Estarriol, I'll go ahead and quote what he said in its entirety:
 * Thanks... I think there may be some confusion here when it comes to what I mean by "referencing". If you're not familiar with it, please see Verifiability (and also this page on citing references).  In short, it's not enough for the editors of this article to know that references exist, or to cite them broadly (say by referencing an entire comic book series, or mini-series); facts in articles here should be explicitly referenced, using one of the common reference styles in the pages I linked to earlier, and potentially contentious or misunderstood facts should be specifically linked to good references, making them personally verifiable with as little effort as possible by all readers.  I have tracked down explicit references from what you and others have provided and will be adding them to the article in the correct place – please check these changes and if you feel they do not represent verifiable fact, please edit them.
 * Please also remember that this article *should* be about Magneto as a developing comics phenomenon, not just as a "person" - all this story about the editorial decisions to change his ethnicity should be in the article. A good article should cover all aspects of a concept, and what happened to a comics character from the POV of the marvel storyline is only part of the encyclopedic topic of "Magneto".  Let me know if you'd like me to provide links to the wikipedia policies and guidelines that explain all this further.  The whole story about the attempts to make him a Gypsy and the reasons behind them, and why this character was such a sensitive subject for that... and more, the entire theme of how his actions have at times perhaps approached those of the people he hated most... these would be excellent additions to the article.
 * Thanks for providing the clarification and the links. I hope what I've said here has been constructive and does not offend.  Cheers. :-)  —  Es  tarriol  talk 17:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully he doesn't mind, as it is mostly in context. Please note that this is why the article has two clean-up tags at the top of it and came nowhere near FA-status when it was nominated. As an aside, I agree that those story arc articles are copyvio, but that doesn't excuse this one. --Newt ΨΦ 23:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, as to the Bibliography of Magneto article, it may not need to exist if the issues are cited in-line. --Newt ΨΦ 23:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, guys, this is getting more and more confusing, and I'm also concerned that the Magneto article is being unfairly targeted, because I've checked other articles about other Marvel characters, and there is no such pickiness being applied. Here is what I would like clarified:

1) Putting Magneto's history in the present tense. While I think this is silly to the extreme, and many of the other Wikipedia Marvel comic book character articles do not do this, you've cited "copyright" violations as your reason. I have never read THIS interpretation of copyright violations before. It is standard practice in the comic book industry to describe the history of the charcters as if they are real people, in the past tense. As long as there are references cited, it's fair use. But if all you want is for us to convert the paragraphs from past tense, to present, that is possible.

2)Your complaints about the "length" of the article are unfair and you need to compromise on this. Again, you are not applying the same standards to other articles. In order to accommodate the demands you have made, the "Publishing History" section needs to be expanded, for example. This character is one of the most important in comic book fiction, and his history is vitally important. We can try to condense paragraphs, but the article will still be long.

3) The "Publishing History" will and shall be the place to tell the real-world, behind-the-scenes story of the character. We need to work on it. Problems with doing this include: a) many sources are hard to reference, and include message board posts, private letters, and interviews that have long since disappeared from the internet, although some of us have copies stored in our files. So, you need to explain in more detail how you expect us to reference those kinds of sources. And I mean explain, PLEASE, do not refer us to another very confusing Wikipedia cite that vaguely explains about referencing. I find those pages to be incomprehensible.

4) Marvel is different from DC. The Marvel Universe is a coherent whole, that has not been rebooted in over 40 years. These characters have one history, that sometimes is long and interesting. It is not appropriate to intersperse "real-world" publishing data with the history of any given character. Check the Wikipedia page on the popular character Wolverine to see how it should be done. Magneto's history is highly important, and intense, and it will only confuse matters further to intersperse real-world history with that of the character. This is something that Wikipedia does not enforce unilaterally, and you need to compromise on this. The behind the scenes publishing stuff should go in the "Publishing History" and the history of the character should go under "History of the Character" -- in the present tense, with in-line references to the specific comic book issues in which the events occurred. These should be treated as parallel but separate sections.

5) Now, regarding the citations. Do you want: a) citations inserted in the paragraph in parentheses, like "Magneto gave up his fruitless search for his lost wife Magda, and immigrated to Israel (UNCANNY X-MEN #161, CLASSIC X-MEN #12, X-MEN #40)." Or, (b) do you want linked footnotes, with a master list of all Magneto appearances and references and linked superscript numbers that take the reader to the comic book(s)listed on the reference list. This is what you did with the references supplied in the "Trivia" entry. Please explain in words, and give examples as to how to format -- please do not link to the Wikipedia pages as before, since those pages give no answers I can understand. And you are being somewhat vague as to what you actually want.

6) Please assure me you are not trying to harass us -- I do not understand the focus of "uber-editors" on the Magneto article, while other articles about other Marvel characters look pretty much like this one, but have been left alone. I DO appreciate your sensitivity to this character and his particular history, believe me. But I do not understand what seems to be a kind of ganging-up on this article. I think we all need to compromise, where we can, and you-all need to be more concrete about what you want us to do. Let us try to do it, and then give us feedback as to whether we are, or are not, doing it right. Thank you for considering what I have to say, and especially thanks to Estarriol for his past discretion and kindness. --Myst3

 * 1) Check out WP:WAF and the Check your fiction part of the MOS, which someone will probably link for me.
 * 2, 6) Those other articles will be cleaned up in turn. This page is just one of the ones that needs a lot of work, and since it's such a high-profile character, it's more likely to get attention than Scarlet Spider or She-Thing.
 * 3, 4) This is the article to talk about the real world. This entire project is the place to talk about the real world. Check out WP:WAF.
 * 5) Personally, I'd like "In Uncanny X-Men #274, Magneto ate a bologna sandwich", instead of parentheticals or footnotes. Others may disagree, but any of those is good. Again, check WP:WAF.

 * Basically, read WP:WAF. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1)To continue from what A Man In Black said, check Guide_to_writing_better_articles. While it may be standard practice of the comic book industry to write THEIR characters' histories in the past tense, it is WP practice to write in present tense.
 * 2) I chose this article specifically because it's such a huge breach of WP policy and practice that requires a ton of clean-up (does no one notice the two clean-up tags at the top of the article?). I did not unfairly target it, I just picked it early (I have edited prior articles to clean them up in such a way).  I understand the character's article may still be long, but Hulk (comics) doesn't have an article quite as long and his history is longer, with his own titles, same with Captain Marvel (DC Comics) which is a featured article.
 * 3,5)Ideally, from what I understand, there would be an origin story or similar written in literary present, and then the rest of the article would be pub history focusing on writers and artists contributions to the character, the background discussions about his ethnicity, and so on. The citations would preferably be something along the lines of what A Man In Black suggested.   The article would read better if the first appearance was discussed and later the flashback is discussed that surrounds his origin.  Something like "Magneto first appears as a villain in X-Men #1, written by Stan Lee and drawn by Jack Kirby. .  In X-Factor #8 (if that's correct), so and so writer reveals in a flashback the reason for Magneto's worldview. ."
 * 4)I had no idea Wolverine (comics) was so long. Coincidentally, as I type this, that article is also undergoing a huge edit which will more than likely put closer to in-line with WP policy and practice, though I can't speak to how far Chris Griswold will go today. Back to this article, I think it can be pretty confusing and not at all informative to talk about the character as a real person, especially when there have more than likely been retcons in the past (which real people do not have).  I agree with A Man In Black here as well, the whole idea is to write about the "real world."
 * 6)Harassment is the farthest from my mind. I, like you, am only attempting to better the article.  I am not an uber-editor as you call me, in fact I'm pretty new to the whole thing.  However, I have been trying to keep abreast of all the policy and practice of Wikipedia through discussion on the WP:COMIC talk page, relevant MoS discussions, and figuring out what fair use is.  I look to the featured articles, consensus of the WP:COMIC editors, and what the admins in WP:COMIC (such as A Man In Black) tend to favor for guidance, not to the articles which are largely in dire need of clean-up.
 * --Newt ΨΦ 13:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody fill me in? I checked the WP:Writing about Fiction page and saw that three people had commented on the decision to make that a guideline. Is three people how Wikipedia defines consensus? I'll point out that Wikipedia says that guidelines can also be created de facto based on what the majority of people are already doing. Most pages about fictional characters either largely or entirely describe the character using in-universe perspective. Unless the consensus on WP:WAF was many hundreds of people, I suggest that the in-universe example set by the majority of articles take precedence as the guideline. I will also post this to the WP:WAF discussion page. Jerdwyer 01:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Xorn
Removed reference to the suggestion that the Scarlet Witch somehow influenced Xorn's Magneto-delusions, since New Avengers #20 and the Quesada statement don't seem to implicate her in that at all. Maximoff77 20:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Present Tense
I flew through the Character History and converted all the past tense into present tense. It got pretty confusing a lot of times so another pair of eyes to check it would be good. It could still use a cleanup but the verbs are right, I guess. Bradtcordeiro 02:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

All fiction is supposed to be written present-tense, with an out-of-universe perspective. I am getting this from Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction). People keep reverting Early Life to past tense because it occurred in flashback, but I don't see this as an exception. Bradtcordeiro 21:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if the story is being related by one character to another in the past tense, the article should be in the past tense. If the story is being related in a flashback, it should be present tense. That said, why doesn't this article start with Uncanny X-Men #1? Let's use the real world chronology instead of the fictional-world timeline. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I've been waiting for someone to agree that this should not use real world chronology (kinda like the editorial guidelines do). --Newt ΨΦ 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Er. I suggested that we should use real-world chronology. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So you did! ...and so I had meant to agree with you! Funny how one word just totally changed my meaning.  What I meant to say was as follows:
 * Thank you! I've been waiting for someone to agree that this should use real world chronology (kinda like the editorial guidelines say to).
 * Wolverine (comics) is suffering from the same problem. --Newt ΨΦ 23:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Legends voice
Okay which Magneto voice in the Legends series do you think was better ? Tony Jay or Richard Greene ? Though I never played any of them I want to know you're opinion.

This question (In case it wasnt obvious before) is dedicated to the memory of Tony Jay. God bless his soul.
 * Sorry, this isn't a fan forum. This talk page is for use with issues related to the article solely.  --Newt ΨΦ  17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ultimate Magneto Background
There's a conflict between this page and the main Ultimate x-men page. The Ultimate x-men page maintains that Magneto is a holocaust survivor, where as this history is removed from his background on this page. Which one is correct?
 * He said he was in the Holocaust in #5, yet his background in #26 contradicts this. I don't know. --DrBat 12:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Magneto (Marvel Comics)/Archive 1


text:
Talk:Joseph Hooker

prostitute
Regarding the derivation of the term "hooker" meaning prostitute as coming from Joseph Hooker's name, from the American Heritage dictionary website:

hooker2 SYLLABICATION: hook·er PRONUNCIATION:  hkr NOUN: 1. One that hooks. 2. Slang A prostitute. WORD HISTORY: In his Personal Memoirs Ulysses S. Grant described Maj. Gen. Joseph Hooker as “a dangerous man … not subordinate to his superiors.” Hooker had his faults. He may indeed have been insubordinate; he was undoubtedly an erratic leader. But “Fighting Joe” Hooker is often accused of one thing he certainly did not do: he did not give his name to prostitutes. According to a popular story, the men under Hooker's command during the Civil War were a particularly wild bunch, and would spend much of their time in brothels when on leave. For this reason, as the story goes, prostitutes came to be known as hookers. However attractive this theory may be, it cannot be true. The word hooker with the sense “prostitute” is already recorded before the Civil War. As early as 1845 it is found in North Carolina, as reported in Norman Ellsworth Eliason's Tarheel Talk; an Historical Study of the English Language in North Carolina to 1860, published in 1956. It also appears in the second edition of John Russell Bartlett's Dictionary of Americanisms, published in 1859, where it is defined as “a strumpet, a sailor's trull.” Etymologically, it is most likely that hooker is simply “one who hooks.” The term portrays a prostitute as a person who hooks, or snares, clients.

Corps command
Edited slightly to clarify that Hooker was made commander of I Corps before Antietam. The previous article had implied that he commanded III Corps (which was left in DC).

 * According to Eicher, the III Corps, AoV, ceased existence on Sept 12 and the I Corps, AotP, started up the same day. He did command III Corps Sept 6-12. Hal Jespersen 16:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hooker" as a prostitute
I am 99.9% certain that the term "Hooker" was in fact derived from the fact that Hooker formalized the army brothels, which had previously existed, but until that point were not considered a part of the army. As soon as I get time, I will find a reliable source that proves this and change the article accordingly. Ninja! 02:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation?
I just reverted an update that was an exact copy of http://www.civilwarhome.com/hookbio.htm that had no indication of permission or other suggestion of why it could be used here. see WP:COPYVIO. If I am wrong, I'll gladly revert my change (or feel free). I'll leave the editor a note as well. (John User:Jwy talk) 23:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Photos
The main picture was appalling bad -- covered in scratches, dust, etc. I cleaned it up a bit in Photoshop and uploaded it, and then changed the picture in this article. Someone a little more experienced in photo restoration could probably take it even further. (I've previously uploaded a photo I took of Hooker's statue outside the Mass. Statehouse lower in the article.) Fogster 19:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Hooker
Graduated From U.S. Military Academy in 1837 =]

Joseph Hooker
Why dont you guys have any information on him. Dont forget there is no info on his parents =[ his mother was Mary M. Hartley his father was James D. Hooker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.53.126.13 (talk) 04:13, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Expanding on his changes to the Army
Would it be possible to include a little more about Hooker's renovations to the Army of the Potomac while in his charge? I remember reading all sorts of examples in Catton's book about that army (where is that damn little red book now when I need to use it?) and the obvious impact they had, just as initially McClellan and later Grant did. Although it can be argued both Hooker and Mac didn't fully use that army properly, it can also be argued all three of them pretty much saved it at very key times. Kresock (talk) 00:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Feel free to make specific suggestions here or edit the article to add the detail you are looking for. Please adjust the references and footnotes if you use sources other than those currently listed. Hal Jespersen (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I have found sources for the renovations Hooker made, mostly from Army of the Potomac; Glory Road by Catton, and another from the Official Records. They detail fixes to the daily diet of the gropos (veggies and such), lots of sanitary changes, accountability of the quartermaster system, addition and monitoring of company cooks, hospital reforms, an improved furlough system (one per company by turn 10 days each), acts to stem desertion (one from Lincoln combined with mail review, ability to shoot deserters, better camp picket lines), more and better drills, officer training, command changes (including asking for exiled Gen. Stone to be his chief of staff!!!), combining the calvary, etc.

I do not want to add 14+ paragraphs to the page, so I would like input as to which aspects to concentrate on for this article. Please feel free to ask for elaboration on any of these suggestions. Kresock (talk) 06:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I would suggest that a single paragraph with about the level of detail you describe above would be the appropriate addition the article. In comparison, George B. McClellan had a lot greater impact on the organization of the Army of the Potomac than Hooker did, and his contributions are described in his much lengthier biography article in only the highest levels of detail. Hal Jespersen (talk) 17:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the ideas. I added the info I mentioned to the particular paragraph and updated the ref & notes for them. If necessary I can add more depth so just let me know. Is there a plan to in-line cite the rest of the page? I would help with that too. Kresock (talk) 03:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I have inline cites on my to-do list, but it won't bubble up in priority any time soon. Help is always welcome. Hal Jespersen (talk) 15:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Dead end link?
I tried the last link from this page's reference section and got a 404 error for my troubles. The site is still running just the direct link is gone, however I could not find Hooker's bio there. It may be time to remove this link, but I was wondering what parts of the article use this ref so they might me cited from another source. Kresock (talk) 02:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I fixed it. Thanks for finding. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

"Hookers"?
I know the page says that there is no basis for this, but I learned in History that the term "hooker" comes from the phrase "Hooker's Army has the best whores" - although the term was used before the Civil War, Hooker did serve before then, and I see no reason why he couldn't have been in command somewhere before then. Can anyone else confirm this?

A little "back-history". . . although the generals did not specifically find whores or bring them along, they did have nurses as on-site medical aids - many of whom would also sell themselves as whores for money and for the pleasure of the men serving. So while General Hooker may not have set out to bring whores with him, word spread throughout the troops that his group always had the best whores as nurses. --192.138.137.237 (talk) 15:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Cite, please? Just saying "I learned in History" could imply that your History teacher mentioned this as a good public speaker would an attention getting from time to time to keep the less enthusiastic students' attention - not that you would have needed the attention getter yourself, but there are always some who do.209.244.187.155 (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Hooker myth #2 and 2a
These statements:''Hooker did not take the promotion with modest reserve. He was quoted as saying that the country at war would be best served by a dictator. and his hard drinking social life, even on the battlefield.'' both need some revision because they either perpetuate an old myth or are a little off in timing. Stephen W Sears, on pp.54-55, 60 and pp.505-506 of his book Chancellorsville shows convincingly that Hooker was not a hard drinker during the Civil War, nor was he ever intoxicated on the battlefield. Hooker did state that the country needed a dictator, but this was during the "Mud march", before he knew that he would be appointed to take Burnside's place (it should also be noted that Henry J. Raymond, editor of the New York Times, and the one who reported this statement to Lincoln, had a personal dislike of Hooker and was passing on second hand information from the Time's army correspondant William Swinton). Hooker did, however, have a reputation for being a man who often talked badly.(Sears p.54)

As for this: ''Despite this, Fighting Joe would set a very bad example for the conduct of generals and their staffs and subordinates. His headquarters in Falmouth, Virginia, was described as being a combination of a "bar-room and a brothel".'' these statements are completely uncited and should not be part of an encylopaedic article without there being at least some foundation of truth, or at least some explanation as to the accuracy of the claims. Hooker had plenty of enemies who enjoyed wrecking his reputation after the fact - Sears mentions Washington A Roebling as being one of them on p.506. Minorhistorian (talk) 09:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move

 * Article not moved. Station1 (talk) 05:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Joseph Hooker → Joseph Hooker (soldier) — Current article name is too easily confused with Joseph Dalton Hooker (more usually known as simply Joseph Hooker). the American general is undoubtedly very well-known in America, but I would suggest that globally the botanist is more notable. The page "Joseph Hooker" should be a dab page, with the contents of Joe Hooker moved here. DuncanHill (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you willing to personally update everything that links here? I stopped counting once I went over 750 articles. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 17:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I'm used to doing that for certain admins who don't even bother to ask before moving pages. Did you check that every one of those links was correct? It was the discovery of incorrect links here which spurred me to make the suggestion. DuncanHill (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyway, many of the incoming links are from templates, so easily fixed en masse. DuncanHill (talk) 18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose. The general's page already has an ample disambiguation notice at the very top (unlike the botanist's) and I see no compelling reason to force hundreds of Civil War articles to change their links. You would conceivably have a point if the names were identical, but they are not. Hal Jespersen (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The names are identical as normally used. The article on the botanist would be better placed at Joseph Hooker (botanist). The proposed move would make it easier to ensure that incoming links were correct (of course, if editors would rather have incorrect links, then leave it as it is). DuncanHill (talk) 19:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose. The botanist does not appear to be more notable globally. Traffic statistics for Joseph Hooker for January was 11,121 hits. For the same time period, the hits for Joseph Dalton Hooker were only 4,249. I checked across several months and that ratio is fairly consistent. The dab page got 396 hits in the same period. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 18:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am in no way in support of this move, but couldn't the traffic stats for this page be skewed by people looking for the botanist' article? So if someone was looking for Joseph Dalton Hooker and came to this page by mistake, that would increase article views for Joseph Hooker. Just an observation.--Jojhutton (talk) 18:56, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't matter. If we assumed that all of the hits for JD Hooker came here first you would still have (11,121-4,249 = 6,872) almost 7,000 to 4000 ratio favoring General Hooker...and we know that all of those hits for the botanist didn't come here. It would be nice to get the referral statistics from Wiki's Apache logs to get more precise answers. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 04:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd never heard of the general until someone corrected a link in an article on my watchlist. DuncanHill (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fair. I'd never heard of the botanist until you suggested this move.

 * The reason why we know that there aren't that many confused folk coming here is gathered from relational studies of the traffic statistics. A general comparable in fame/notability to Hooker is Ambrose Burnside (12471 hits)...there is also George Meade (10902 hits), then ascending upwards we have George B. McClellan (31061 hits), William Tecumseh Sherman (51557), Ulysses S. Grant (181158), Robert E. Lee (193521)...you get the idea. The thing Hooker is most notably associated with is the Battle of Chancellorsville (26589) although he gets a fair mention in the Battle of Antietam (64331). Since I compared Hooker most closely with Burnside, the thing he is most noted for is the Battle of Fredericksburg (23022). These statistics establish a popularity trend about Hooker, his associates, and the American Civil War in general.

 * The botanist, JD Hooker at 4249 hits, is comparable to Asa Gray (3509), and gardeners Alan Titchmarsh (5321), Charlie Dimmock (4425), and surprisingly substandard-ranked designer, Diarmuid Gavin (1349). The highest rated thing I could find in the world of botany was one of my favorites, Carl Linnaeus (61851). The most notable thing associated with JD Hooker, I believe, is Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew (10541) which contrasts against Chancellorsville's 26589 hits.

 * Indeed, the entire subject of Botany (51870) doesn't seem to hold a candle to the subject of the American Civil War (560511). So, I feel confident that the general is substantially more notable than the botanist. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 04:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose. I have to say if someone mentioned Joseph Hooker to me I'd immediately think of the general. And I'm British! -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hooker's Railroad Extravaganza
(copied from Berean Hunter's talk page)

I put the mention of Hooker's grand railroad exploit back into his article WITH citation this time. I will continue putting it back in every time you remove it.

Rebels moving less than 4,000 men a mere 14 miles on rails proves nothing in comparison to moving 22,000 men nearly 12,000 miles in 7 days. Most history books, both military history and rail history, consider the rail use at Bull Run insignificant at best, a mere footnote to Hooker's efforts. Even the training material for the railroad brigade at Ft Eustis completely skips Bull Run to focus on Hooker's railroad extravaganza.

Also, who left you in charge of deciding if Hooker's rail use adds nothing to his list of achievements? It is quite literally the most important thing he ever did in the entirety of his military service, and one of the only things that occurred during the ACE that still has any bearing on the military today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.221.122 (talk) 22:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

 * I first reverted this addition with the edit summary "Rm unsourced...Confederates established this point at First Bull Run (Hoooker didn't do anything new)" and would then receive the above response on my talk page. The IP then added this edit which I have removed citing problems with original research.

 * The main problem that I have with both edits is that Hooker didn't prove anything new as what is written seems to imply. I used First Bull Run as an example which despite the IP's original research and incorrect claim that rail use at Bull Run was "insignificant at best", was the first time that major troop movements were achieved by rail. It indeed had a major impact and was a significant factor in the Confederacy's victory. His facts & figures concerning the movements to Bull Run are quite wrong but that isn't necessary to establish to refute his editing. The IP uses page 5 of this Osprey book to cite Hooker's achievement in 1863.

 * I counter that with the following:

 * "Before the battles of First Bull Run, Shiloh, and Chickamauga, for example, the Confederacy was able to shift thousands of troops quickly, by rail, from divergent locations and effect forceful concentrations against the enemy. In July 1862, General Braxton Bragg achieved the largest Confederate Railroad movement of the war when he dispatched 30,000 men from Mississippi to Chattanooga, Tennessee, by a roundabout, 776-mile route that avoided Union forces." from p. 352, The Library of Congress Civil War Desk Reference By Margaret E. Wagner, Gary W. Gallagher, James M. McPherson

 * I'm not totally against mentioning the feat accomplished by Hooker but it needs to be cited and accurate. He didn't prove the new technology as was written.

 * As to First Bull Run, I believe that you will find that Johnston moved 10,000 of his 12,000 troops for 57 miles (the last 34 by rail) in about 25 hours. He had far fewer trains to do this with as well. Using Osprey as a source is somewhat slipshod as they aren't considered all that accurate by reputation in view of more academic scholarly sources. (tongue-in-cheek) But seeing your penchant for this type of source any dummy can tell you First Bull Run's railway first is nothing to dismiss:

 * "Railroads: A first at First Manassas, Johnston's arrival by rail to Manassas marks the first time in military history that the railroad had been used to bring troops quickly into battle. Without the railroad, Johnston's army would have to spend many days on the march, arriving tired and worn out. The use of the railroad cut the time significantly, allowing Beauregard to mass Confederate forces at a single place to achieve a decisive effect on the enemy. After Manassas, generals would use railroads to concentrate widely dispersed forces and fight a battle. Troop movement by rail is still a hallmark of modern war." from p. 108, The Civil War for dummies By Keith D. Dickson

 * ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Although moving these troops to Chattanooga was a significant achievement, two points need to be considered: (1) It is unclear what personal role Joseph Hooker played in this logistical effort (other than occupying a seat in a rail car), which is important to understand in a biographical article, versus an article about the campaign or about railroads during the war. This was primarily a War Department initiative, which Hooker certainly did not conceive or initiate. (2) The hyperbole needs to be tempered with the knowledge that the Confederates achieved a much more logistically difficult series of rail transfers, as cited above, even though more troops were involved in this movement. Hal Jespersen (talk) 18:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Joseph Hooker