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Talk:Australian magpie

Call
I visit Australia to see my family who emigrated there many years ago. My grearest joy is to hear the Magpie`s song,both in town and on the farm would it be possible to have the sounds on the web page. Simon Francis

That would be great, Sam. The only call recordings I know of are copyright. A year or so ago I thought long and hard about buying recording gear and doing it myself, but I would up spending the time and money on photography instead. And yes, the song of the magpie is a wonderful thing indeed. Tannin 22:22, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * 'cept if it's 4:30 am and you're trying to get to sleep :) -- Paul 08:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

You can hear a recording of an Australian magpie (albeit with some car-like background) at "northamptonshirewildlife.com,uk/sgallery". Phil Donnelly203.206.234.14 20:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

As someone who has been attacked by those damn birds I find the contention that their noise is of exceptional beauty very POV. When I hear the noise I look for a very big stick.Avalon 06:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Why don't you cry about it and dob it in to your mother. I've been attacked, believe me, many more times than you, and I can still recognise them as having a beautiful call. 203.173.21.69 08:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Seconded. I too have been swooped by Magpies (I'd guess most Australians have had that happen to them at least once), and that doesn't stop me appreciating them for the beautiful, intelligent birds they are. I always enjoy hearing them sing. Dr algorythm 14:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"I'd guess most Australians have had that happen to them at least once" yeah, try once every fucken week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.247.151 (talk) 07:52, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I think the poetry by Denis Glover is misquoted - correct text is "Quardle ardle oodle ardle wardle doodle". However, as is often the case with misquotations, I like the version on this website better! ROxBo 15:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Magpies
We have had a family of magpies living near our home for over 5 years. Does anyone know how long their life span is as we are very fond of them and the male is looking a little old now. Barbara

I know that they can live 7 years, there was one lived near my house that had a quite distinguishable droopy wing that still visited until I moved. Will look it up. I am a lemon 05:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

My uncle fed a female for 25 years before she simply disappeared a short while ago. During that time she had 2 partners.The Real Blockhead 08:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Striped magpie
I saw a magpie with brown and white stripes on his side, perhaps 10-15 stripes in all. Could this have been an Australian hybrid? If so, he was a long way from home in Holland.

Bad Sound File
That sound file linked at the bottom of the page sounds nothing like the beautiful call of the magpie. Are there any better resources? rmccue 04:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Swooping
Who invented the myth that magpies don't go for the eyes? In my experience, painting eyes on the back of my helmet hasn't done anything to deter them, instead causing them to go for that particular section of my helmet.

-oh man! i agree. i've had them come at me from directly in front.. staring straight at them. i'm definately siding that it's a myth. - stevie d

maybe the point is to give them a fake set of eye to swoop at, instead of your real eyes?

Anyone ever notice that one of the pair is usually a little more wary than the other? One will readily take food off your hand, and takes no notice when you walk close by, but the other is more reticent and scuttles away a few metres when you get close.

The article says "Last swooping season, five people died from their injuries...". I cannot find anything to back this up - are Magpies really killing Australians? Martin R 125.238.105.42 03:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Indirectly, but sadly, yes. The most dangerous aspect of the attack seems to be that it is so sudden (do you REALLY routinely expect to be attacked from above by a large and ferocious bird???). Victims become disoriented and stagger into the paths of vehicles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old wombat (talk • contribs) 08:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In my experience the cable-ties heighten the threat response from the bird, that is they make the birds swoop more often. Also the reference doesn't support the claim made about cable ties, the advice is to read about and report problem birds and walk your bike in trouble spots. 59.167.126.189 (talk) 14:26, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Above comment "In my exp..." was me, signing in for notifications. Genericness (talk) 14:36, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

A small minority are swoopers? It's got to be the world's biggest minority. I think that should be changed to "overwhelming minority". I think that would be more accurate. The sentence should be, "An overwhelming minority of magpies will attempt to peck out your eyes if the thought occurs to you that it might be a nice day to take the bike out instead of driving". There should also be a note that it is not safe for small children to walk home alone in Australia because they will actually just lose one of their ears to a magpie.

Removing Photos
It seems that some photographers are determined to have "pride of place" for their own photos - even going so far as to remove the photo(s) that held that place before. I have just restored the photo in the lead paragraph which was removed by Happy Photographer, who replaced it with one of his/her own. I've moved Happy Photographer's photo futher down in the article, next to where it better illustrated the text.

While it may make sense to re-order photos to best illustrate different sections of the article, I find it very dismissive of the contributions of photographers to simply eliminate their work entirely. Especially as this swapping/eliminating of images always seems to happen in the "top spots" of the article. This may not have been the intention of Happy Photographer, but I would ask him/her, and others, to be more respectful of the existing images when choosing to add ones own to an article. KeresH 10:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I will be adding more text eventually to this article, so hopefully this will allow the accommodation of more photos (ideally next to corresponding text bits). cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I do apologise for my actions - I did not intend to be malicious in any way. In my defense, the photo I replaced was taken by the same person that has the main magpie photo in this article so it was not as if I was removing his entire photo contribution to the article. Also, I thought that, due to the size of the article in proportion to the number of pictures, I should not simply add another one. Finally, in mine, the actual size of the subject that I intended to illustrate was considerably larger than that of the one I replaced - You could simply see more magpie in mine! Sorry once again. Happy Photographer 05:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

 * And I apoliogize for taking you so harshly to task. It wasn't till after I posted the above that I checked our your user page and saw that you were new to Wikipedia.  As you can tell from what I wrote, unfortunately there are a few individuals at Wikipedia who tend to see this place as "all about me".  Obviously Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and that kind of grand-standing just makes everyone else pissy.  Anyway, I don't fault your logic 'per se', but I would again remind you that this place is as much about the people who contribute as it is about the articles.  Also, it's really easy for people to get the wrong impression in a virtual environment.  That's why leaving a sentence or two on the discussion page is the best way to let people know what you were thinking. Anyway, welcome aboard.  And feel free to contact me if I can be of help. KeresH 08:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There are way too many pics - many don't provide anything new. I've just removed one, and I will probably remove more. --Merbabu 09:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find the 'magpie chasing a goshawk' pic is a fake. Note the different degree of focus on both birds in the picture, and the lighting that seems a little wrong. Another variation of the same fake circulating the web can be found here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.86.212 (talk) 19:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Suggest you get your facts right! File:Magpie chasing Brown Goshawk (Immature).jpg isn't fake. The above link has stolen the photo I've linked to and photoshopped the hell out of it. Bidgee (talk) 01:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the dubious provenance of the photograph. The poster above, asserting that someone else "has stolen the photo" and "photoshopped the hell out of it" is questionable when either could have formed the basis for the other, and both appear to be based on the same dodgy material. 124.148.189.121 (talk) 17:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 20:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Clean-up
I've done some fairly extensive clean-up work on this article, mainly tying up grammatical loose ends, and making some sections clearer in meaning. One or two sentences here strike me as odd, though - "They may also eat their own digestive products". Reference or citation, please? Also, the section which states hand-feeding can discourage swooping seems to be a very shaky claim. It needs either a citation, or removal. Beruthiel (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have observed (through my telescoppe) both the male and female feeding their young. Perhaps the statement on feeding should be changed from "Nestlings are fed exclusively by the female" to "Nestlings are fed mainly by the female". I have also observed that after feeding the chicks present their rear end to the parent and pass a jelly like dropping which the parent consumes. The Real Blockhead (talk) 08:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Behaviour
Someone ought to update the 'behaviour' section to include discussion of the fact that magpies are notorious for collecting useless objects such as shiny small artificial trinkets. In Australian popular culture, magpies are known for this. - Richard Cavell (talk) 08:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

 * We'll get there. I'll be giving the article an overhaul in the near future. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Re - Manus Flutter and other dominant/submissive behavior - I've seen juveniles being picked on by their father, presumably to force them out of parental care, and to placate him, they flutter their tail up and down rather their wings. Flapping wings seems to me to be more about begging behaviours - I've seen juveniles do it to parents accompanied with begging calls when the parents have food, and also females to the male, and the female to humans with food, in the last two cases especially around breeding time from September onwards (QLD). GermanicusCaesar (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Anthropocentrism on Swooping
The swooping section only really seems to cover humans and this stage and should probably also reflect on the the behavior towards potential predators etc. Noodle snacks (talk) 07:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. I expanded that first and am doing general behaviour next. Swooping is a big problem and does warrant its own section though. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The swooping sections mentions hats, beanies, helmets, flags and umbrellas... but does not comment on the recent (in my observation_ trend of using cable ties on bike helmets to deter magpies. I am not adding this in directly as I think it would constitute original research - ie, I don't know the REASON it works, though I could speculate... Does anyone know any more information for this, and perhaps a photo? --.../Nemo (talk) 04:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

 * A photo would be fantastic. I will look up to see if there is anything published too. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a mention of it here Melburnian (talk) 06:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

 * I have added this in as a one sentance reference with that page referenced. A photo would still be good though! :) --.../Nemo (talk) 00:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I formatted the ref. Anyone who knows anyone with one of these helmet attachments and can take a pic would be great :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I have experience with a family of magpies in Melbourne. We noticed that the neighbours would be left alone during swooping season, but visitors would be swooped. I think they were able to recognise individuals. This was something I raised with an ornithologist, who recounted similar experiences with corvids John Wilkins (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes. They recognise individual people, sometimes attacking newcomers but never the regulars they know are not threats. I've seen the same behaviour with cats. An old cat of ours was swooped when he was young but not later. A new cat was swooped as soon as it arrived. HiLo48 (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I've seen cyclists using cable-ties on their helmets. I believe this is misguided, it heightens the threat response from the bird and leads to more aggression from the bird. The reference provided also doesn't support using cable ties aside from some UGC on the right hand bar. The advice from the reference is: read about and share locations where swooping is happening, and walk your bike past these areas to avoid losing control if swooped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.126.189 (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

 * The above comment "I've seen cyc..." is by me, signing in for notifications. Genericness (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Homing after translocation
Jones seems to contradict Jones. In Jones (2003) he found no evidence of homing after birds were translocated, only 5 out of 141 relocated birds made it home (deposited at a variety of distances), but you cite Jones (2002) as saying that they can home back in. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

 * It is the distance which is critical (25km mark IIRC), I don't have the book with me but will stick the full figures here later on today. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I emailed you a copy of the 2003 paper. Let me know if you need any others. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  05:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Vocalisations
I've noted a number of vocalisations apart from just the 'wardle oodle warble' typical of the Magpie and the juvenile begging squawk.
 * 1) A harsh, descending single note, sometimes in a series. They also sometimes preceed the longer song. There seems to actually be a number of these, the "harshest" of which seems to be a definite warning call. I've heard one magpie utter such a call in the distance and nearby magpies quickly react all getting off the ground into the trees. Another similar call elicts instant replies from the mate and sometimes the mate will then fly to the location of the other bird that first made the call.
 * 2) Another interesting vocalisation I've heard and seen is the female making a sort of soft 'grunting' at the male when food is presented as if to warn off the male from bullying her out of food.
 * 3) Also just the once I heard a male magpie making a long soft call pattern imitative of the Grey Butcherbird's imitative calls. (yes, a magpie imitating a butcherbird imitating a magpie (and other birds)).

GermanicusCaesar (talk) 02:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I can dig up material on diferent calls for referencing. Agree on these, and more. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Aha, I can now connect the email and author - I will write on your talk page. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Here's another observation from my IM logs about the 'grunting' noise from 02 Oct 2008 (10:21:27) "i like the way only she makes the grunty noise. you never hear mr magpie make it. perhaps it means something like 'baby' or 'food' as she uses it to call baby when she's bringing food to him. perhaps she uses it when teaching baby about food as she was in the garden, and then she uses it when warning mr magpie that she needs some of the food (eg. 'i need food for baby')"

GermanicusCaesar (talk) 06:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

 * The article reads as if deliberately written to downplay the Australian magpie as a dumb bird like any other. But when you watch actual videos of them online, the first thing that you immediately notice is that the birds are not singing at all they are god damn talking to each other. If that wasn't enough, their vocalizations are totally distinct from anything I have ever heard, ever. It doesn't sound like chirping it literally sounds almost like computer modem sounds. That is, it is strikingly and immediately obvious that they are packed with information, non-repetitive patterns with grammar and vocabulary. I would expect from such a bird that they are socially organized like crows, i.e. they hunt in highly organized packs, packs are part of larger communities and they also retain behaviors across multiple generations via learning and communication. I wouldn't be surprised if they also had death rituals like regular magpies. In light of the true nature of this bird, the article reads as if grandly mistaken. I hope not due to desinformation policies. 23:05, 10 July 2021 (UTC)23:05, 10 July 2021 (UTC)~ shoa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.204.173.133 (talk)

Ranges of subspecies
Not knowing much about Australia, I find the range descriptions almost impossible to understand. Can a subspecies range map be added? Snowman (talk) 13:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, will get someone onto it (i.e. I am no good with svg). Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I wonder if the Graphic Lab/Image workshop can help or not? Snowman (talk) 15:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Some comments on the article that I would fix if I had the knowledge or access to sources:
 * "Spring in Australia is magpie season ..." Is this Australia specific or are magpies active swoopers at other times in other places?
 * "several authorities, initially Storr in 1952 and including Christidis and Boles in the latest 2008 official checklist, place it in the butcherbird genus Cracticus, giving rise to its current binomial name; they argue that its adaptation to ground-living is not enough to consider it separately." This seems to contradict the lead and the taxobox, both of which give its current binomial name as Gymnorhina. --
 * meant to fix that, now Cracticus. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * "Introductions also occurred in the Solomon Islands and Sri Lanka, although the species has failed to become established" This meaning of this sentence is not clear to me. What does "has failed" mean? Are they still there but not in any number or have they died out completely? -- Mattinbgn\talk 00:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

copyedit/comments

 * what does "well-built" mean??? (solid, sturdy - I thought it was self-explanatory. You like 'sturdy' better?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "The main difference between the subspecies lies in the "saddle" markings on the back below the nape, which is white in all forms."
 * It might be me, but this sounds markedly contradictory. Either that or it could use rewording.
 * You're right, my familiarity had led me to make that bit sound alot more complicated than it is. reworded Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:55, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Consider replacing the distribution map with one that also shows acclimated range. (I think it would lose more than it would gain by having Australia shrunk so much really, plus I don't have an NZ map handy, but could possibly find one. Might be good as separate map in section then Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:27, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The bit about Magpies' effect on New Zealand birds could use some rewriting IMHO. It is very choppy. (done)
 * Some material mentioned in earlier parts of the article, such as hand-feeding (That's uncited, BTW) and introduction to New Zealand, could be moved down to human relations (removed the uncited bit - it is obvious but could apply to alot of our birds anyway. The NZ bit I'd debate - I generally put introductions in distribution section but am not hugely fussed.) Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

 * That bit about the striated pardalote and burrowing in the Magpie's nest sound interesting, but there is lack of details to understand just what is actually going on. (big nest, tiny little pardalotes burrow into the bottom of the sticks, but not deep enough to go where magpie chcks are. Tried to elaborate a little to convey better the sense of what is happening. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:27, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The placement of the bit about the death of a boy is weird. It sounds as if it could have been more from the bicycle fall. Also mention whether or not this is the only recorded death from such an injury? it is the only death recorded, and the source says definitively it was a magpie peck. I can't interpret otherwise.
 * I think the first sentence of "cultural references" could use rewording
 * Context for Burndud is necessary.
 * tried to provide some context for both burndud and first sentence Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Piping Shrike states "[...] the bird in its own right has never been formally adopted as a faunal or bird emblem of the state.", consider harmonizing the articles by explaining what was done exactly By gov. Tennyson. (weird. the ref doesn't say that it wasn't, so no idea where that came from)
 * "keeping the magpie strip" was quite confusing to me, but I'm not clear whether this is a language or sports jargon barrier.
 * I'd rather like some expounding on how "its brash, cocky attitude has been likened to the Australian psyche."
 * Gawd, haven't you met enouhg aussies here yet? IKWYM though and will have a think on this one. There is someting at ocker but not exactly. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Circeus (talk) 23:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good improvements around the clock so far. Made a few extra changes. Circeus (talk) 17:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Magpie lovers
I really enjoyed reading this. Here's some of the dreaded "personal research".

Back in spring 2006 a magpie was born in south Wollongong who is the most superb singer I have ever heard. He was one of 6 fledglings (but I cannot say if they all came from the same nest). One was run over by a 4WD. This bird is the Pavarotti of the Magpie world. While the other birds foraged, he sang and sang and sang. He commenced this activity while still a grey fluffy fledging, at a time when other birds are going squawk squawk and hoping a parent will jam something down their neck.

He soon realised that he had an appreciative audience in me, although I never fed him but only talked and whistled. When I walk along the street, he will appear on top of a pole, and treat me to little bursts of music, pole-hopping as I move along. One day he produced the ultimate.... a superb imitation of the prolonged high-pitch throat-throbbing of the local butcher bird..... and looked extraordinarily pleased with himself. He has married and now produced three young. I saw them all on the railing behind the local pub, with the missus trying to entice her fat fluffy babies to fly back to their tree. Dad, to her apparent frustration, was fully absorbed in giving them choir practice, coaching them with short phrases, repeated over and over.

The question here is, to what extent are magpies' (and similar birds) songs learnt? I had a long relationship with a pair of currawongs that lived in Camperdown Cemetery, Newtown and trusted me as an auntie to their young. They made all the usual cries, but didn't sing at all. They had no apparent contact with other currawongs, the nearest currawong that I knew of at the time was a soul male that lived in the inner city of Sydney and foraged in Hyde Park. Eventually a pair of magpies appeared in the cemetery. To my surprise, the currawongs accepted them and at last learnt to sing, a rather dumbed down version of the magpies' song. Amandajm (talk) 08:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Certainly magpies are accomplished mimics - and can copy many other birds. I think alot of their songs are taught and learnt. I have not seen too much on currawongs but would imagine they wouldn't be too bad either. You must get the Gisela Kaplan book - it is a wonderful read. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It will be very interesting to observe whether any of these three young ones have inherited Pavarotti's love of music. Amandajm (talk) 02:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was very interested to read about the young ones playing with other types of birds, such as honeyeaters. I have never seen that happen.
 * We had a pair of maggies at Warrimoo that reared not one but two Channel Billed Cuckoos. They appeared to be a male and a female, and sounded quite different to each other. Never learnt to sing a note! Just squawked night and day to be fed.
 * Apart from the maggpies, we have had a Koel here (the 'Gong) regularly for about 4 years. According to Joanne Rowling, there is a bird called a Fwooper the sound of whose cry can send people insane. JKR has got it a little wrong. The magical bird is, in fact, a Koel, and its lound mournful fwooping which starts well before dawn can send three suburbs completely crazy. Nice quiet neighbours who tolerate people's roosters crowing, lawn-mowers baa-ing and a sociable pet cockatoo picking its teeth with a bit off their TV arial, cannot tolerate this blinking bird. They get out of bed at 4 AM in order to throw their steelcaps at it and yell "Eff off, you b..stard!" The local doctor writes innumerable scripts for sleeping pills, when Koel breeding season arrives. Interestingly, one year, his cry changed radically, and only continued for a short time. I think he had a mate. She must have divorced him, because the following year he was as mournful as ever.
 * Re currawong singing. I remember a big flock at Warrimoo one year that was practising with a cantor. He did all the singing, and they all responded with "Woooooooo!" After he had been through the song numerous times, they changed parts. The choir sang the song (mostly in unison, but with the odd variation on the theme) and the single bird went "Wooooooo!".
 * Amandajm (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Wow, you've listened more closely than I have, but my musical ear sucks. I never used to mind Koels (rainbirds) but there are more and more of them each year...I am in inner Sydney and from September on ...arrgh. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations!
I'm so happy to see our wonderful birds on the front page! Amandajm (talk) 09:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And the timing is just perfect with swooping season starting! -- Mattinbgn (talk) 10:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, nice timing - hope it's not an omen though; Melburnian (talk) 11:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

File:Cracticus tibicen tibicen juvenile ANBG.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Cracticus tibicen tibicen juvenile ANBG.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 26, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-12-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 18:48, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Possible to find in California?
Several years ago I saw a flock of crow-sized birds but rather than being uniformly black, they were black and white. They in fact seem now to have resembled the Australian Magpie -- could the species reach California and if not, is there a native species (this was Sacramento area) that looks sort of like them?--Jrm2007 (talk) 07:39, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine how they got there. European Magpie is more likely. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

More info on "Breeding" and "Behaviour" available.
Like literally tens of thousands of students around me, in 1971 in my second-last year of High School in NSW we studied the Oz Magpie as a very detailed case study of the general topic of "Animal Behaviour". I can put in a couple of paragraphs from this. Is this a good idea? The document we worked from was a CSIRO one but I can not recall any further info about it. 121.216.53.29 (talk) 08:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC) Whoops, forgot to login first Old_Wombat (talk) 08:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Dispute on genus name.
The very common and well-respected Simpson and Day give Gymnorhina as the genus, as does the Mangoverde World Bird Guide, as does the CSIRO. Whichever name is adopted, there needs to be consistency in the article. There are currently both 'C' and 'G' references. Old_Wombat (talk) 09:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC) As does the image of the magpie on the Australian Museum page. Old_Wombat (talk) 09:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

 * It is a tricky one, but Christidis and Boles, which is the definitive consensus list, has Cracticus. Agree the article should be consistent and will double check. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello Casliber, good to talk to you again. Having read your last comment, and accepting it, and then re-reading the article, IMHO there is indeed sufficient space given to the assertion that "the magpie is now considered to be the same genus as the BBs but there is a dissenting opinion that it is a genus on its own". Having said that, the text needs to be put together. Right now, it is all over the place:

"A member of the Artamidae, it is closely related to the butcherbirds. " - right at the beginning of the lede.

"With its long legs, the Australian Magpie walks rather than waddles or hops and spends much time on the ground. This adaptation has led to some authorities maintaining it in its own genus Gymnorhina." - further down in the lede.

"The Australian Magpie had been placed in its own genus Gymnorhina, however several authorities, Storr in 1952 and later authors including Christidis and Boles in their 2008 official checklist, place it in the butcherbird genus Cracticus, giving rise to its current binomial name; they argue that its adaptation to ground-living is not enough to consider it as a separate genus.[13]"- in "Taxonomy", much much later.

Wot do you think? Old_Wombat (talk) 08:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I do see what Old wombat is talking about, might me best to have both? Sample of Australian Magpie: Biology and Behaviour of an Unusual Songbird (CSIRO). Bidgee (talk) 08:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Sigh - yeah, re-reading it, I guess I was on auto-pilot as its closest relatives are the butcherbirds, but if it is in Cracticus, then "Cracticus" is colloquially "butcherbirds + magpie" - most unambiguous way to write is "It is classified in the genus Cracticus along with the butcherbirds" ...but then working in Gymnorhina next to it when adaptation for ground living is not introduced until further down the paragraph.....hmmmmm...I'll ruminate on this but am open to ideas :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Swallow-tailed Cotinga which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Aboriginal names
It would be great if we could include a couple of the names for these birds used by the aboriginal inhabitants of the continent, if anybody can locate some. — Hippietrail (talk) 08:42, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Magpie cull
Well, this is a new thing. Burklemore1 (talk) 16:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 * http://citynews.com.au/2015/gungahlin-magpie-cull/
 * http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-04/parks-and-conservation-cull-magpies-after-food-related-attacks/6750710

Latham 1801 or Latham 1802
The year of publication of Latham's Supplementum indicis ornithologici sive systematis ornithologiae is disputed. The article currently has (Latham 1802). The title page of the book has 1801. The BHL mentions the possibility of two issues with some volumes dated 1801 and others 1802. The year is discussed by Alan Peterson on his Zoonomen site.

The IOC List, HBW Alive and the old Check-list of birds of the world all use 1801 for the year. I suggest changing the year in the article to 1801. Are other editors happy with this change? Aa77zz (talk) 10:19, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking at other Wikipedia article on birds first named by Latham, I find that there are around 50 that use 1802 and 38 that use 1801. Aa77zz (talk) 10:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, I'd say.-- Elmidae  12:38, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah I have no problem with it - could even put a footnote in for explanation if you like. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've changed the year to 1801 and cited Schodde R, Dickinson EC, Steinheimer FD & Bock WJ. 2010, which seems very suitable. Their abstract includes the sentence: "Although there are some circumstantial grounds favouring 1802, they are not sufficiently strong, under Art. 21.2 of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature, to displace the date of 1801 established on the title page of the work." Aa77zz (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent additions
I've reverted a set of well-intentioned additions to the article by a new editor. No source was given for most of the new material and, given that this is a featured article, I would expect significant changes to be discussed here first. Aa77zz (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

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Genus redux
If anyone is interested, the Kearns paper on page 948 states, "our findings provide strong evidence that the synonymy of Gymnorhina is valid" - the opposite of how the IOC interpreted it (!) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * IOC is not alone. The 4 world lists (IOC, Clements, H&M4 and HBW alive) all now place the Australian magpie in Gymnorhina - HBW alive moved the species from Cracticus to Gymnorhina in their 2017 update.

 * At the moment we follow the IOC and place the black butcherbird (Melloria quoyi) in the monotypic Melloria but if we then place the Australian magpie in Cracticus from Fig 3 in Kearns et al 2013 this makes Cracticus paraphyletic.

 * I suggest we follow the world lists here and move the Australian magpie to Gymnorhina (even though in general I dislike monotypic genera) - Aa77zz (talk) 21:09, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * (sigh) I missed that (putting BB into Melloria). Otherwise I'd have tried to keep that in a broadly defined Cracticus. I did send an email to Leo Joseph suggesting that it'd make more sense then to move BB to Gymnorhina too but hey...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:04, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you happy for me to change the genus to Gymnorhina - (plus the associated changes to the text in the article)? I personally would favour an expanded Cracticus - but currently there is a clear consensus to have monotypic genera. See the Avibase page. Christidis and Boles (2008) is the only authority listed with Cracticus. - Aa77zz (talk) 09:52, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess I am not happy but concede that consensus indicates the preference for the two monotypic genera, so I don't have grounds to oppose it (i.e. go ahead). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * OK I'm done - I've tweaked the Taxonomy section and mentioned Gymnorhina and Gray. - Aa77zz (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

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Reference section
I changed the "bibliography" sub-section to "Works cited" per MOS:NOTES: "Bibliography" may be confused with the complete list of printed works by the subject of a biography ("Works" or "Publications"). It is not an autobiography but any "confusion" is avoided but a small change that does have reasoning. At least the section is sub-sectioned more appropriately and not using full section headings for "reference" related items. Otr500 (talk) 06:18, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Taxonomy - Other Names
This relates to the Taxonomy section of the Article, where other names are mentioned: Given that the name Piping Shrike is sometimes used locally in South Australia for the White Backed Magpie, particularly because of the connection to the SA Flag, seal, and badge; could you consider adding piping shrike to the list of other names. This is supported by the following book references as well as a range of SA gov websites. It is also covered in the Piping Shrike wiki article. Higgins et al Colour Plate facing page 609. OTHER ENGLISH NAMES -; Piping Crow-shrike, Roller or Shrike; -. Australian Bird Names Origins and Meanings, Fraser and Gray - “Piping Shrike, as formally described on the South Australian flag and coat of arms” in the section on other names for Gymnorhina tibicen telonocua (the White Backed Magpie) Adastral (talk) 23:21, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

 * No response, so I have added this change. There was no need to add referencing as it is included in the reference that was already cited Adastral (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Merger
I think it'd be appropriate to merge the article Australian magpie in New Zealand with this one. They are both the same bird, which caused me confusion when reading this page. I thought that it included New Zealand, but it has its own seperate article for some reason. New Zealand can have its own section in this article. Panamitsu (talk) 03:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Good either way. This kinda-sorta works as a separate article, but it is by no means too expansive (or threatening to become so) to just make up a section in Australian magpie, and there is something to be said for having all the information in one place. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel like it's worth keeping, especially alongside the several other "x in New Zealand" about introduced species. The articles tend to focus more on the specific impact they have locally, for which there is definitely scope for further expansion. Turnagra (talk) 10:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I can see both sides of the argument. The NZ article, if kept, needs work. There are other articles about species introduce me to NZ, so it would not be unusual to have such an article.  Schwede 66  19:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm going to put off a formal merger request because we already don't have a consensus about whether we should merge the articles. I also agree about the other argument and personally can not make a decision. What I do think is that it should be made clearer that there is a separate article for New Zealand. Panamitsu (talk) 03:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I see there's a bit of New Zealand content in Australian magpie - I wonder if it's worth padding this out a little bit to a subsection of that part, and having a link using Template:Main at the top of that? You could have it as just a high level overview, with the main article as going into further detail. Turnagra (talk) 22:55, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect Source
Source 112 no longer works (it was a PDF). I'm not sure how to edit sources so I thought I would add this to this page. NickTheChicken11 (talk) 11:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Source numbers change. Paste the actual citation as well so we know what you're talking about. Nurg (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have found a couple of dead PDF sources and have now fixed them. — Panamitsu (talk) 03:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Dinosauria stuff
I don't know who, but somebody slapped the "Dinosauria" clade on there. From what I understand, that's only reserved for dinosaur pages here, not modern animals, right? Booger-mike (talk) 10:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ...no? It's present in every single automatic taxobox for class Aves and upwards (i.e., all birds). -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:52, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Australian magpie


text:
Marcia Gay Harden

Marcia Gay Harden (born August 14, 1959) is an American actress. Her breakthrough came in the 1990 Coen brothers' film Miller's Crossing. For her portrayal of artist Lee Krasner in the 2000 biographical film Pollock, she won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress. She received a second Academy Award nomination for her performance as a troubled wife in the drama film Mystic River (2003). Her other notable film credits include The First Wives Club (1996), Flubber (1997), Space Cowboys (2000), Mona Lisa Smile (2003), and the Fifty Shades film series (2015–2018).

Harden made her Broadway debut in 1993, starring in Tony Kushner's epic play Angels in America: Millennium Approaches/Angels in America: Perestroika for which she was nominated for a Tony Award for Best Featured Actress in a Play. She returned to Broadway in 2009 in Yazmina Reza's comedic play God of Carnage, with her performance earning her the Tony Award for Best Actress in a Play.

Harden's television credits include guest roles in the HBO series The Newsroom (2013–2014), the ABC series How to Get Away with Murder (2015–2020) and the Apple TV+ series The Morning Show (2019–present), as well as main roles in the CBS series Code Black (2015–2018) and So Help Me Todd (2022–2024). She received Primetime Emmy Award nominations for her guest role in the crime drama series Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and her supporting role in the television film The Courageous Heart of Irena Sendler (2009).

Early life
Harden was born in the La Jolla area of San Diego, California, the daughter of Texas natives Beverly Harden (née Bushfield), a housewife, and Thad Harold Harden (1932–2002), who was a Captain and fighter pilot who served 30 years in the United States Navy. She has three sisters and one brother.

Harden's brother is named Thaddeus, as are her father and her former husband. Harden's family frequently moved because of her father's job, living in Japan, Germany, Greece, California, and Maryland.

Harden graduated from Surrattsville High School in Clinton, Maryland in 1976. She received a Bachelor of Arts in theater from the University of Texas at Austin in 1980. Harden received a Master of Fine Arts from New York University's Tisch School of the Arts in 1988.

Career
Harden's first film role was in a 1979 student-produced film at the University of Texas. Throughout the 1980s, she appeared in several television programs, including Simon & Simon, Kojak, and CBS Summer Playhouse. She appeared in The Imagemaker (1986), her first film screen role, in which she played a stage manager. She appeared in the Coen brothers' Miller's Crossing (1990), a 1930s mobster drama in which she first gained wide exposure. Even so, at the time, living in New York City, she had to go back to doing catering jobs "because I didn't have any money".

Harden debuted on Broadway in the role of Harper Pitt (and others) in Tony Kushner's Angels in America in 1993. The role earned her critical acclaim and she received a Tony Award nomination (Best Featured Actress in a Play).

Harden played actress Ava Gardner alongside Philip Casnoff as Frank Sinatra in the 1992 made-for-TV miniseries Sinatra. Throughout the 1990s, she continued to appear in films and television. Her notable film roles include the Disney sci-fi comedy Flubber (1997), a popular hit in which she co-starred with Robin Williams; the supernatural drama Meet Joe Black (1998), playing the under-appreciated daughter of a tycoon (Anthony Hopkins, co-starring Brad Pitt); Labor of Love (1998), a Lifetime television film in which she starred with David Marshall Grant; and Space Cowboys (2000), an all-star adventure-drama about aging astronauts.

In 2000, Harden won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for her portrayal of painter Lee Krasner in the biographical film Pollock. In 2004, she received a second Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actress for her performance in the mystery crime drama Mystic River.

Harden guest-starred as FBI undercover agent Dana Lewis posing as a white supremacist in "Raw", an episode of the popular crime drama Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. This role earned Harden her first Emmy Award nomination for best guest actress in a drama series in 2007. She reprised the role in the series' eighth-season premiere and again in the 12th-season episode "Penetration" as a rape victim.

Harden appeared in several 2007 films, including Sean Penn's Into the Wild and Frank Darabont's The Mist (opposite Thomas Jane and Laurie Holden), based on the novella by Stephen King. Also in 2007, she shared top billing with Kevin Bacon in Rails & Ties, the directorial debut of Alison Eastwood. Harden played a woman who has a mastectomy in Home (2008). (Her character in Rails & Ties also had a mastectomy.) Scenes in both films required her to bare her breasts, with the missing breast removed using computer-generated imagery. In Home, her co-stars include her daughter, Eulala Scheel. Harden starred in the Christmas Cottage, a story of the early artistic beginnings of the painter Thomas Kinkade.

Harden appeared as a regular on the FX series Damages as a shrewd corporate attorney opposite Glenn Close and William Hurt in 2009. She received a 2009 Emmy nomination for her role in The Courageous Heart of Irena Sendler, a TV film also starring Oscar-winner Anna Paquin. She was a Best Supporting Actress in a TV Movie/Miniseries nominee and lost to Shohreh Aghdashloo. If she had won this Emmy, Harden would have entered the elite group of "triple-crown" actors, those who have won the profession's three highest honors: the Academy Award (film), the Tony Award (stage), and the Emmy Award (television).

Harden co-starred with Elliot Page and Drew Barrymore in 2009's Whip It, which proved a critical success. She also appeared in the comedy The Maiden Heist (2009) with Christopher Walken and Morgan Freeman.

Harden returned to Broadway in Yasmina Reza's God of Carnage, co-starring with James Gandolfini, Hope Davis and Jeff Daniels, in 2009. All three actors were nominated for a Tony Award; Harden won Best Actress in a Play.

Harden reunited with her former Broadway co-star Jeff Daniels as a new cast member on HBO's series The Newsroom in 2013. She played Christian Grey's mother, Grace Trevelyan Grey, in the Fifty Shades film series from 2015 to 2018. Also in 2015, she began a starring role in the TV series Code Black. She stars in the 2022 CBS drama So Help Me Todd, since renewed for a second season.

Personal life
In 1996, Harden married Thaddaeus Scheel, a prop master, with whom she worked on The Spitfire Grill. They have three children. In February 2012, Harden filed for divorce from Scheel.

Harden owned property in the Catskills and a townhouse in Harlem. She sold the Harlem townhouse in 2012.

Harden is an avid potter, which she learned in high school, and then took up again while acting in Angels in America. She is also a practitioner of ikebana, the art of Japanese flower arrangement, which her mother learned while they lived in Japan. She gave a brief demonstration in 2007 on The Martha Stewart Show and presented some works of her family, as well.

In May 2018, a memoir called The Seasons of My Mother: A Memoir of Love, Family, and Flowers was published. The book details the story and bond of mother and daughter throughout time and how they are dealing with the largest struggle yet, her mother's Alzheimer's disease. Harden created works of ikebana specifically for this book to illustrate the different seasons of her mother's life.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Marcia Gay Harden


text:
User talk:80.201.158.143

Please cease adding copyrighted material to wikipedia immediately. Thanks, snoyes 16:50, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:80.201.158.143


text:
Edward Fitzgerald

Edward Fitzgerald or FitzGerald may refer to:

Government and politics

 * Edward Fitzgerald (1529-90), MP for Great Grimsby and Lichfield
 * Edward FitzGerald (Inistioge MP) (1689), MP for Inistioge
 * Edward FitzGerald (1738–1814), Irish politician, MP for Clare 1776–90 and for Castlebar 1790–97
 * Lord Edward FitzGerald (1763–1798), Irish revolutionary
 * Edward Fitzgerald (insurgent) (1770?–1807), Irish revolutionary
 * Edward Fitzgerald Beale (1822–1893), American naval officer, frontiersman and diplomat
 * Sir Edward Fitzgerald, 1st Baronet (1846–1827), Lord Mayor of Cork
 * Edward FitzGerald, 7th Duke of Leinster (1892–1976)
 * Ed FitzGerald (born 1968), American politician
 * Edward Fitzgerald (adviser), American adviser to Senator Claude Pepper
 * Edward Fitzgerald (barrister) (born 1953), English barrister
 * Edward Fitzgerald (Texas politician), see Texas Senate, District 19

Sport

 * Edward FitzGerald (mountaineer) (1871–1931), leader of first group to climb Aconcagua
 * Eddie Fitzgerald (athlete) (1888–1936), American Olympic athlete
 * Edward Fitzgerald (ice hockey) (1891–1966), American ice hockey player
 * Edward E. Fitzgerald (1919–2001), sports writer, editor of Sport magazine, chief executive of Book of the Month Club
 * Ed Fitz Gerald (1924–2020), American baseball player
 * Edward Fitzgerald (fencer) (born 1997), Australian fencer who competed in the 2014 Summer Youth Olympics
 * Edward Fitzgerald (sailor) (fl. 2018–2020), World Championships medalist in sailing

Other fields

 * Edward FitzGerald (poet) (1809–1883), English writer, translator of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
 * Edward Fitzgerald (brewer) (1820–1896), Australian brewer
 * Edward Fitzgerald (bishop) (1833–1907), second bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Little Rock
 * Edward Fitzgerald (priest) (1883–1968) was an Irish Roman Catholic priest
 * Edward Aloysius Fitzgerald (1893–1972), fourth bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Winona
 * Edward FitzGerald (born 1988), heir presumptive of Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Duke of Leinster
 * Eddie Fitzgerald (artist), writer and artist for The Ren & Stimpy Show

title: Edward Fitzgerald


text:
User talk:Tiffany gp28

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Here are some useful links in case you haven't already found them;

 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
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If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

Tip: you can sign your name with ~

snoyes 16:55, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tiffany gp28


text:
Bev Harris

Bev Harris is an American writer, activist, and founder of Black Box Voting, a national, nonpartisan elections watchdog group. She helped popularize the term "black box voting", while authoring a book of that title.

Original investigative work by Harris has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Time, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, CBS, Fox News, and NBC, as well as by the Associated Press, NPR, and many other mainstream news outlets.

In 2006, HBO released the documentary Hacking Democracy, which follows Bev Harris and Kathleen Wynne, director and associate director of Black Box Voting, respectively. Hacking Democracy was nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Long Form Investigative Journalism.

Diebold Investigation
In 2003, she discovered the source code of voting machine manufacturer Diebold Election Systems, which changed its name in 2006 to Premier Election Solutions.

After examining these files, Harris wrote an article on July 8, 2003, detailing how to bypass passwords and manipulate election results on the Diebold GEMS central tally system. The information in Harris's article was subsequently confirmed by internal memos written by Diebold's own engineers.

Researchers at Rice University and Johns Hopkins University also studied the programs she obtained and found security weaknesses that afforded opportunities for abuse Diebold officials and state election officials disputed the findings of the Rice and Johns Hopkins researchers.

Hacking Democracy
An organization founded as a nonprofit by Harris, Black Box Voting, was invited by Ion Sancho, Leon County, Florida Supervisor of Elections to conduct a series of tests of Diebold's GEMS central tabulator and Diebold's optical scan voting machines. The tests took place February 14, 2005; May 2, 2005; May 26, 2005 and December 13, 2005, and allege to prove that Diebold machines were not secure and could be hacked and results altered.

Her work to expose security weaknesses in electronic voting systems was assisted by Kathleen Wynne and is featured in an HBO documentary, Hacking Democracy. The film follows a series of investigations, many of them captured live on videotape by Kathleen Wynne.

In a public records request, Harris discovered that counterfeit audit records had been provided to Black Box Voting. Harris subsequently found some of the original records in the garbage at a Volusia County warehouse. Florida Fair Elections Coalition founder Susan Pynchon and Broward Election Reform Coalition founder Ellen Brodsky found more original poll tapes in the garbage behind the Volusia County elections office.

Harris, Wynne, and Andy Stephenson audited the originals against those given out by Volusia County in public records requests. Data on several of the poll tapes found in the garbage did not match data on the tapes provided in public records; many key audit items were missing, and unusual errors (such as a date-stamps 16,000 years in the future on one tape) indicated the alterations appeared to be due to alterations in programming the device that produces the poll tapes. Harris, Wynne and Hacking Democracy producer Russell Michaels, arranged for a series of hacking demonstrations on the "GEMS" central tabulator and also the hacking of memory cards. The finding of the records in the trash, along with the hacks, can be viewed in the HBO documentary Hacking Democracy, which premiered November 2, 2006.

Other investigations
In March 2006, Black Box Voting was contacted by elections official Bruce Funk, from Emery County, Utah. Black Box Voting again secured the services of Harri Hursti and Dr. Herbert Hugh Thompson and examined the Diebold TSx touch-screen (DRE) system. Hursti, Thompson, and a member of the Black Box Voting board of directors, Jim March, found flaws which prompted emergency warnings and last minute corrective actions in Pennsylvania, California, and other states.

Harris's investigations into the testing laboratories that examine voting system software were revealed in a hidden camera interview in Hacking Democracy; she also obtained test laboratory reports that showed Ciber Laboratories omitted security testing on the machines.

Harris also identified and broke the story on the criminal records of a number of individuals who owned, programmed, and printed ballots in the elections industry.

Diebold lawsuit
Together with Jim March, Harris filed a whistleblower lawsuit, alleging that Diebold Election Systems had made false claims when selling their system to Alameda County, California. In late 2004, Diebold agreed to pay the state of California $2.6 million to settle the case, and paid approximately $76,000 to Harris, which she donated to the then-nonprofit Black Box Voting organization.

VoteHere investigation
She has been served with four cease and desist notices and in 2004, was interviewed by the United States Secret Service Cybercrime Task Force five times in connection with a claim by VoteHere, an electronic voting software company in Bellevue, Washington, that their site had been "hacked", with their source code stolen. In connection with this, Harris received a gag order from a U.S. Attorney in preparation for a federal grand jury investigation. An article by Seattle Weekly covered this.

title: Bev Harris


text:
Ryde

Ryde is an English seaside town and civil parish on the north-east coast of the Isle of Wight. The built-up area had a population of 24,096 according to the 2021 Census. Its growth as a seaside resort came after the villages of Upper Ryde and Lower Ryde were merged in the 19th century, as can still be seen in the town's central and seafront architecture. The resort's expansive sands are revealed at low tide. Their width means the regular ferry service to the mainland requires a long listed pier – the fourth longest in the United Kingdom, and the oldest surviving.

History
In 1782 numerous bodies of men, women and children from HMS Royal George, which sank suddenly at Spithead, were washed ashore at Ryde. Many were buried on land that is now occupied by the Esplanade. A memorial to them was erected in June 2004.

There are a series of Regency and Victorian buildings in the town with important buildings such as All Saints' Church, designed by the eminent George Gilbert Scott, and Ryde Town Hall, which was completed in 1831. Up until the pier was opened in 1814, ferry passengers landing at low tide were brought almost half a mile into the shore by horse and cart.

Governance
Ryde Town Council represents the residents of Ryde. Ryde Town Council is a statutory consultee in planning matters regarding Ryde. Their views are taken into account by the local planning authority, Isle of Wight Council.

Ryde residents are represented by Ward Councillors on the Isle of Wight Council.

Transport
There is a hovercraft service to Southsea, which takes nine minutes. It is operated by Hovertravel near the Esplanade close to Ryde Esplanade railway station and the bus station. A catamaran service run by Wightlink operates from Ryde Pier to Portsmouth Harbour, which connects with both Island Line trains and mainland trains to London Waterloo.

The Island Line Trains service runs from Ryde Pier Head via Ryde Esplanade to Shanklin, a distance of 8.5 mi. Ryde St John's Road railway station lies further south in the town.

The bus interchange lies between Ryde Pier and the Hover Terminal on the Esplanade. Ryde is the second busiest stop in the Southern Vectis network after Newport. The busiest route is No. 9 to Newport, running every 10 minutes in the daytime. Others include Nos 2, 3, 4 and 8 and local route 37. An open-top bus service, The Downs Tour, runs in the summer.

Amenities
The town's large and long esplanade area has always been an attraction for tourists, especially those day-tripping from the mainland, as the amenities are all available by walking from the pier. A swimming pool, bowls club, bowling alley, and boating lake are among the attractions, and there are various children's playgrounds, amusement arcades and cafés.

Ryde has few large public open spaces beyond the esplanade, but areas for public recreation include Appley Park, Puckpool Park, Vernon Square, Simeon Street Recreation Ground, St John's Park, St Thomas' churchyard, Salter Road recreation ground, and Oakfield Football Club.

At one time Ryde had two separate piers; the other being the Victoria Pier, no longer in existence. Ryde has its own inshore rescue service, which mostly deals with people stranded on sandbanks as the incoming tide cuts them off from the shore. The pier is also a feature on the 67 mi Isle of Wight Coastal Path, which is marked with blue signs bearing a white seagull.

Ryde has a small marina located to the east of Ryde Pier. It is tidal and dries out at low water, hence it is more suitable for smaller sailing (bilge keel) and motor cruisers. It has provision for up to 200 boats, either on floating pontoons or leaning against the harbour wall. It has a full-time harbour master, who posts information outside the harbour office, including weather reports, tide times, cruise-liner movements and anniversary events.

The town centre is on a hill, with local shops and chain retailers.

Buildings

The twin church spires visible from the sea belong to All Saints' (the taller) and Holy Trinity churches. All Saints' Church is located in Queens Road on a road junction known as Five Ways. It was designed by George Gilbert Scott and completed in 1872. The spire is 54 m tall. Holy Trinity Church is in Dover Street. It was designed by Thomas Hellyer and completed in 1845. Holy Trinity Church closed in January 2014 and the building became the Aspire Ryde community centre.

St James' is a further Church of England church in the centre of Ryde, on Lind Street. It was constructed in 1827 as a proprietary chapel and continues to be active, with services at 10:30am and 6:30pm each Sunday and a range of youth and mid-week groups.

The town's Roman Catholic church, St Mary's in High Street, was built in 1846 at a cost of £18,000, provided by Elizabeth, Countess of Clare. It was designed by Joseph Hansom, inventor of the hansom cab. Other churches include the Anglican St James Church and St. Michael and All Angels, Swanmore. There are also Baptist, Methodist, United Reformed and Elim churches in the town.

Ryde Castle, situated on the Esplanade, was built about 1840 as a private house in crenellated style and is now a hotel. It was heavily damaged by a fire in 2012 and underwent major restoration in 2013.

Beldornie Tower on Augusta Road was at one point a property of the Earl of Yarborough. Dating back to the 16th or early 17th century, the house was virtually rebuilt about 1840 in Gothic-Jacobean style. A west wing was added in 1880.

Ryde School With Upper Chine stands opposite All Saints' Church. The chief building, Westmont, is Grade II listed.

Entertainment
Sited on the Esplanade are an ice rink and a pavilion. The former is no longer open to the public, and the Isle of Wight's ice-hockey team, the Wightlink Raiders, has disbanded. The pavilion houses a bowling alley and night club.

The town's local football team, for many years Ryde Sports F.C., has given way to Ryde Saints F.C. and Ryde F.C.

Speedway is staged just south of the town at Smallbrook Stadium. The Isle of Wight Islanders started as members of the Conference League before moving up to the Premier League.

Carnivals
Ryde has five carnivals in a typical year: the Mardi Gras in June (known as the Arts Parade from 2003 to 2012), Children's, Main and Illuminated processions at the end of August, and a Lantern Parade in December. The Carnival at Ryde is England's oldest.

Notable residents
In alphabetical order:
 * Raymond Allen (1940–2022), a TV screenwriter (Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em), attended Ryde Secondary Modern School.
 * Iris Brooke (1905–1981), artist and author, was born in Ryde.
 * Sam Browne (1824–1901), the soldier after whom the belt was named, lived the last years of his life in a house called Argosy in East Hill Road.
 * Sir Charles Clifford, 4th Baronet (1821–1895), barrister and Liberal member of Parliament, lived at Westfield House.
 * Seb Clover (born 1987), sailor, was educated at Ryde School with Upper Chine.
 * Melvyn Hayes (born 1935), actor, currently lives in Ryde.
 * Cornelius Jabez Hughes (1819–1884), a Victorian photographer and daguerreotypist, worked and died in Ryde.
 * William Hutt (1801–1882), a colonial administrator, was educated in Ryde and resided at Appley Towers.
 * David Icke (born 1952), conspiracy theorist, broadcaster and author, lives in Ryde.
 * Mark King (born 1958), a Level 42 musician originally from Gurnard, opened a pub in Union Street in the 1980s.
 * Sir Charles Locock (1799–1875), obstetrician to Queen Victoria
 * F. G. Loring (1869–1951), writer and naval officer, was born in Ryde.
 * Karl Marx (1818–1883) and his wife Jenny Marx (1814–1881) visited Ryde for health reasons in the summer of 1874, staying in Nelson Street.
 * Anthony Minghella (1954–2008), Hollywood director, was born in Ryde.
 * Nicholas Morrill (born 1957), cricketer, was born in Ryde.
 * Philip Norman (born 1943), writer, attended Ryde School and has written of his childhood in the town.
 * Adam Pacitti (born 1988), internet personality, grew up in Ryde.
 * Kieran Page (born 1983), professional road and track cyclist
 * A. C. Pigou (1877–1959), economist, was born in Ryde.
 * Albert Pollard (1869–1948), historian, was born in Ryde.
 * Michael Sheard (1938–2005), actor (Mr Bronson in Grange Hill; Star Wars), lived in Ryde and died there.
 * Walter Toogood (1874–1914), a professional golfer, was born in Ryde.
 * M. J. Trow (born 1949), military historian and detective fiction writer, taught history and politics at Ryde High School.
 * Edward Vernon Utterson (1775/1776–1856), lawyer and one of the Six Clerks in Chancery, literary antiquary, collector and editor, moved in 1840 from Newport to Beldornie Tower, Pelham Field, Ryde, and set up the Beldornie Press there. Has a memorial tablet in St Thomas's Church.
 * Sarah Elizabeth Utterson (1781–1851), translator and author, moved in 1840 from Newport to Beldornie Tower, Pelham Field, Ryde. Has a memorial tablet in St Thomas's Church.

title: Ryde


text:
Shanklin

Shanklin is a seaside resort town and civil parish on the Isle of Wight, England, located on Sandown Bay. Shanklin is the southernmost of three settlements which occupy the bay, and is close to Lake and Sandown. The sandy beach, its Old Village and a wooded ravine, Shanklin Chine, are its main attractions. The esplanade along the beach is occupied by hotels and restaurants for the most part, and is one of the most tourist-oriented parts of the town. The other is the Old Village, at the top of Shanklin Chine. Together with Lake and Sandown to the north, Shanklin forms a built up area of around 25,000 inhabitants, Shanklin alone contributing around 7,200 of this.

Shopping
The main shopping centre consists of two roads, Regent Street and High Street, which together comprise the largest retail area in the south of the Isle of Wight; significant for tourists but also as an amenity for residents.

Near Regent Street are the town's two main supermarkets, the Co-op and Lidl. In Regent Street itself are many local shops, including two arts and crafts shops, several clothing and sports shops, three newsagents and three bakeries. The High Street also has some local shops, but is dominated by tourist shops and restaurants.

Transport
Shanklin railway station is the terminus of the Island Line from Ryde, opened on 23 August 1864. The railway was extended south to Ventnor in 1866, but this section was closed in 1966. The line from Ryde to Shanklin is now operated by former London Underground tube trains. In October 2004 a direct link was revived in the form of a bus service named the "Rail link". This was discontinued in 2010 but was replaced by the Southern Vectis number 3 bus.

Bus services to nearby towns and suburbs are run by Southern Vectis, mainly on routes 2, 3, 22 and 24, principally from the bus stands at the Co-op supermarket. Destinations served include Newchurch, Newport, Ryde, Sandown, Ventnor and Winford. In the summer, an open top bus route called "The Sandown Bay Tour" is run, serving the main tourist areas of Shanklin and running to Sandown.

Culture
Shanklin has one theatre, Shanklin Theatre, which is just off the top end of the High Street.

In July and August 1819 the poet John Keats lodged at Eglantine Cottage in the resort's High Street, where he completed the first book of Lamia and began a drama, Otho the Great, with his friend Charles Armitage Brown.

In July 1868 the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow stayed at the Crab Inn in Shanklin's Old Village during his last visit to Europe and left a poem about it on a stone by the pub. It is not generally held to be amongst his best work..

The 1980s indiepop band Trixie's Big Red Motorbike were from Shanklin, and recorded some of their records there.

Victoria Cross recipient and Deputy Governor of the Isle of Wight, Colonel Henry Gore-Browne retired to Shanklin before his death in 1912.

According to Joseph Jacobs's influential 1890 version of The Three Little Pigs, the Three Pigs and the Wolf live near Shanklin.

In Monty Python's Flying Circus, season 4, "Mr Neutron", Michael Palin plays a US commander who calls upon "Moscow! Peking! and Shanklin, Isle of Wight!". A voice over continues "And so the Great Powers and the people of Shanklin, Isle of Wight, drew their net in ever-tightening circles around the most dangerous threat to peace the world has ever faced."

Beaches & Esplanade

Shanklin is on the coast of Sandown Bay, and therefore is part of the long beach which spans between Yaverland in the north to Luccombe in the south. The section of beach situated next to Shanklin is split into Small Hope Beach and Hope Beach. Above Hope Beach is the esplanade which boasts some traditional seaside attractions including an amusement arcade, a crazy golf course, and a children's play area, with slides, ball pools, bouncy castles, rigging, swings etc. available to be hired for a child's birthday party. There are several seafront hotels, a cliff lift from the seafront to the top of the cliff, a putting course, several cafes and restaurants and pubs, and a large, clean beach. Shanklin used to have a pier, but this was destroyed in the Great Storm of 1987. The pier formerly had a theatre at which many famous performers appeared, including Paul Robeson, Richard Tauber and Arthur Askey (whose daughter attended a local boarding school called Upper Chine School for Girls). The Summerland Amusement Arcade on the seafront was formerly a seaplane hangar positioned at Bembridge where it housed Fairey Campania seaplanes of the Nizam of Hyderabad's Squadron. Large areas of the seafront were severely damaged or destroyed during the Bombing raids of World War II, but were quickly rebuilt after the war, causing the current seafront to be a varied mixture of Victorian, inter-war and post-war architecture.

Shanklin Sailing Club is situated at the North end of the Esplanade. Founded in 1931 as 'Shanklin Amateur Sailing Club', the club has a fleet of Sprint 15 catamarans and holds races three days a week during the season.

Further along the beach is the Fisherman's Cottage pub. This is at the bottom of Shanklin Chine, from which the town takes its name, historically "Chynklyng Chine" and in the Domesday Book of 1086 Sencliz (held by William FitzAzor; Jocelyn FitzAzor) from "Scen-hlinc". The Chine is open to the public for a small fee and continues up to Rylstone Gardens in the Old Village. It contains a small section of the pipe of the "Operation Pluto" pipeline which ran across the Isle of Wight and out from Shanklin and another branch from Sandown to supply fuel to the D-Day beaches.

Nature
America Wood is a Site of Special Scientific Interest located between Shanklin and Whiteley Bank. It is owned by the Woodland Trust It takes a bit of stamina and determination to get into America Wood, on the outskirts of Shanklin, since it has little accessible parking. However, the more active Isle of Wight visitor can make use of public footpaths and bridleways that lead into the wood. There is an ‘open’ feel to the site with storm damage during the Great Storm of 1987 and the Burns' Day storm of 1990 felling trees and creating many open sections. There is one particularly large glade which is gradually recovering from the storms. The wood is situated just west of Ninham.

Dunnose is a large cape which is situated southwest of the town. An imposing and high geological feature, it has served as a triangulation point for maps of the United Kingdom, and has also been the site of several shipwrecks, most infamously that of HMS Eurydice, which sank with the loss of 300 people aboard.

Shanklin is also the location where Charles Darwin wrote his Origin of Species during an 18-month-long visit to the town.

Climate
Shanklin has an oceanic climate (Cfb) with mild summers, cool nights, rainy winters and average temperature nights. Shanklin is one of the sunniest villages in Great Britain.

Churches

There are three Anglican churches in Shanklin. St.Paul's Church in Regent Street has the bell from HMS Eurydice (1843), which sank off Dunnose Point and is the subject of a poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins. St. Blasius Church, Shanklin – better known as Shanklin Old Church – is to the south of the town and has bell ropes hanging in the nave and a fine lych-gate. The Church of St. Saviour-on-the-Cliff, Shanklin is the biggest in the town and is in Queen's Road.

The Isle of Wight United Reformed Church is situated in Shanklin.

Twin towns
Shanklin is twinned with Coupvray, a town in the Île-de-France region of France.

title: Shanklin


text:
Talk:Hafez al-Assad

Formal and small but important edits required
The spelling of Asad should be with one "s", given that putting two ("ss") whould imply a stress on the "s" sound in English, which is not the case in Asad's name. For a "z" sound in transliterating Arabic words into English, one would use a "z", not an "s". See for example Patrick Seale Asad: The Struggle for the Middle East. 18:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plgx (talk • contribs)

Bias, indeed!
There are so few sources used in making sweeping assertions about Assad and Syria during his tenure, and curiously, they're all widely known to be friendly to US/UK imperialism. Is this really the best you fucks can cobble together???50.101.248.23 (talk) 14:17, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Why official, "nice" picture?
I'm happy to be one of the above-mentioned fucks. Continuing his personality cult on WP? Shameless. Arminden (talk) 09:07, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Assad clinton.jpg

Article move
Three months ago the article has been moved to a new title by a bold move which appears to be controversial, see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_January_15. I am going to submit a technical move request to return to the status quo ex ante. If desirable, a WP:RM may follow. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hafez al-Assad


text:
Blackgang Chine

Blackgang Chine is the oldest amusement park in the United Kingdom, having opened in 1843. Named after a now-destroyed chine (a coastal ravine) in the soft Cretaceous cliffs, it is about 6 miles from Ventnor at the southern tip of the Isle of Wight just below St Catherine's Down. Blackgang Chine and its sister park Robin Hill are owned by the Dabell family. Blackgang Chine is home to many lands of imagination, including Pirate Cove, Restricted Area 5, Fairy Land and Village, and Cowboy Town. Owing to the unstable land on which the park is situated, landslides occur frequently, meaning that attractions have been moved further inland to safer ground on several occasions.

History

During Blackgang Chine's early years, the area was a steep gaunt ravine, overlooking Chale Bay, stretching around three-quarters of a mile down to the shore. It was a quiet place, visited by few people other than local fishermen with rumours of a thriving smuggling trade, which has now become a key theme of the park. On 11 October 1836 the cargo ship Clarendon was wrecked at the foot of Blackgang Chine, with the loss of many aboard.

During Victorian times, people were seeking out new healthy holiday resorts, ideally near the coast. As the railway network was getting closer and closer to the south coast, the Isle of Wight was becoming an increasingly attractive holiday destination. Alexander Dabell, the founder of the park, soon realised the business potential of this, trying various ventures. In 1839 Alexander became friends with a publican who had recently built a hotel at Blackgang, which now forms the Chine Cafe (formerly Pirates' Pantry restaurant) and administration offices. After studying the gault and chine gorge, he knew instantly that gardens could be set up that would appeal to the Victorians as a romantic holiday destination. This along with the increasing popularity of the adjacent Sandrock Spring (a chalybeate spring) led to Alexander concluding a lease for the site in 1842 and the establishment of Blackgang Chine amusement park in 1843. The area was then opened up to the public with pathways built down to the ravine and gardens landscaped on the cliffs. Steps were built to give access to the beach from the lower road. Since the park was opened, it has remained a family business, with the descendants of Alexander Dabell owning it ever since. The park's claim to have been established in 1843 would make it the oldest theme park in the United Kingdom. Its initial theme of a general-purpose scenic and curiosity park led to one of its most famous attractions, a large whale skeleton, which had been washed up near the coast of The Needles in 1842, and is still a showpiece today.

The chine today

Owing to continual landslides, the chine itself has been destroyed, and coastal erosion still has a significant impact on the area today. The park's focus now is themed entertainment for families with young children, lifesize animatronic dinosaurs being a noted feature. The same owners run a sister site, the Robin Hill countryside adventure park. Clifftop walks in and around the area give panoramic views of the English Channel and the south-western Isle of Wight coast.

According to a May 2000 talk to the Isle of Wight Postcard Club by the then director, Mr Simon Dabell, the etymology is simply "black pathway" (the original appearance of the chine), but the theme park understandably fosters the interpretation of a smuggling origin. Thus visitors to the park are greeted by a gigantic fibreglass statue of a smuggler between whose legs they could pass to enter.

The Blackgang Chine park is featured in the book Bollocks to Alton Towers, a humorous book concerned with "uncommonly British days out". It was chosen for its apparent eccentricity. Blackgang Chine is also featured in a documentary based on Bollocks to Alton Towers called Far From the Sodding Crowd. In a 2010 interview, star of the Harry Potter films Rupert Grint praised the park, stating that his family's favourite holiday was visiting the Isle of Wight, their favourite attraction being Blackgang Chine.

The park is frequently associated with ghosts, particularly related to smugglers, with several tales of sightings around the park. In 2008 a video was recorded, showing what appeared to be the apparition of a girl in a blue dress.

Geology
Sited below the village of Blackgang at the western end of the Undercliff, Blackgang Chine was, historically, a spectacular ravine (in 1800 a "steep gaunt ravine" descending 500 feet over about 3/4 mi).

The location is based on unstable terrain owing to the underlying Gault Clay strata, resulting in a succession of huge landslips giving the area a very rugged appearance akin to the better known Jurassic Coast. Currently the cliffs are eroding at a rate of about 3.5 metres per year, although this process is not gradual nor consistent. Continuing landslides and coastal erosion swept away the paths in the early 1900s, and have since obliterated the chine itself and repeatedly forced the park owners to move the clifftop facilities inland.

Park guide
The park covers over 40 acres of cliff-top gardens and themed 'lands', containing outdoor rides and walkthrough attractions, plus heritage exhibitions. Below is a list of the attractions currently in operation at the park:

Accidents

 * In summer 2022, Shipwrecked's hydraulic arm collapsed while the ride was in operation. The park was closed for the rest of the day and the ride was closed during investigations.

Latest developments
In 2010, a new section to the park opened; "Blackgang's Disappearing Village". This was produced in conjunction with the BBC programme Coast, and featured presenter Dick Strawbridge in its video exhibits. It told the story of the island's coast and illustrated the cliff falls and erosion that Blackgang suffered over the years. Approximately half of this exhibition was later removed and converted to the new Hall of Mirrors in 2016. The remaining portion includes the park's original 19-metre-long skeleton of a fin whale, and a simulator designed to mimic the experience of the landslips which occurred at Blackgang.

In 2011, a 'Fairy Land' section was developed adjacent to the Fairy Castle. The following year, the pirate ship play area was redesigned as 'Pirate Cove', with two new pirate ships, and surrounded by other smaller themed buildings, a pirate shooting gallery, and 'The Sailors Return' (now 'The Vortex'), in which visitors walk through a spinning tunnel of lights designed to disorientate.

'Restricted Area 5' opened in 2014; a modernisation of the park's previous 'Dinosaurland'. It features new animatronic dinosaurs which move and roar when visitors approach. Some of the original fibreglass dinosaurs have been retained in the new walkthrough.

In 2015, Cowboy Town was remodelled, with new buildings and scenery. A family of animatronic Triceratops was also added to Restricted Area 5. This replaced the 'Mouth of Hell', a giant devilish 'mouth' that visitors could climb into.

In 2016, The Triassic Club attraction was removed, and the area was redeveloped as a new, larger space for 'The Mouth of Hell', which is now encircled by a new walkway themed with fallen angel statues and demonic sounds.

For the opening of the 2017 'Underwater Kingdom' attraction, the Fantasyland area of the park was completely redeveloped, resulting in the removal of 'The Weather Wizard', 'The Angry Dragon' and 'The Licorice Factory' attractions. The animated 'Smugglers Cave' walkthrough was also removed and a new similar structure was built in its place to form the entrance to the 'Underwater Kingdom'.

As of 2018 and after 56 years, the Water Gardens are no longer part of the park. Demolition of the area began in 2016, with the last of the three remaining ponds nearest the cliff edge being filled in during the winter of 2017.

For the park’s 2022 season, two new rides were opened; a drop ride called ‘Evolution’ and a rotating boat ride named ‘Shipwrecked’.

For the park's 2023 season and 180th anniversary a new 18 meter, 360 degree pendulum ride named "Extinction" was opened.

Christmas 2023 saw Blackgang Chine open it`s doors for the first time ever on selected dates in December. A pop up Christmas shop, complete with tree, decorations and a coffee shop selling Blackgang chine and Christmas themed gifts. The park itself was not open to the public.

title: Blackgang Chine


text:
Lucius Cornelius Scipio

Lucius Cornelius Scipio may refer to:
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio (consul 350 BC)
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio (consul 259 BC)
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio (praetor 174 BC)
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus, consul in 190 BC, victor of the Battle of Magnesia (190 BC)
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus (consul 83 BC)
 * Lucius Cornelius Scipio Barbatus, consul 298 BC and patrician censor 280 BC

title: Lucius Cornelius Scipio


text:
Polemic

Polemic is contentious rhetoric intended to support a specific position by forthright claims and to undermine the opposing position. The practice of such argumentation is called polemics, which are seen in arguments on controversial topics. A person who writes polemics, or speaks polemically, is called a polemicist. The word derives,.

Polemics often concern questions in religion or politics. A polemical style of writing was common in Ancient Greece, as in the writings of the historian Polybius. Polemic again became common in medieval and early modern times. Since then, famous polemicists have included satirist Jonathan Swift, Italian physicist and mathematician Galileo, French theologian Jean Calvin, French Enlightenment writer, historian, and philosopher Voltaire, Christian anarchist Leo Tolstoy, socialist philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, novelist George Orwell, playwright George Bernard Shaw, communist revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, psycholinguist Noam Chomsky, social critics Christopher Hitchens and Peter Hitchens, and existential philosophers Søren Kierkegaard and Friedrich Nietzsche.

Polemical journalism was common in continental Europe when libel laws were not as stringent as they are now. To support study of 17th to 19th century controversies, a British research project has placed online thousands of polemical pamphlets from that period. Discussions of atheism, humanism, and Christianity have remained open to polemic into the 21st century.

History
In Ancient Greece, writing was characterised by what Geoffrey Lloyd and Nathan Sivin called "strident adversariality" and "rationalistic aggressiveness", summed up by McClinton as polemic. For example, the ancient historian Polybius practiced "quite bitter self-righteous polemic" against some twenty philosophers, orators, and historians.

Polemical writings were common in medieval and early modern times. During the Middle Ages, polemic had a religious dimension, as in Jewish texts written to protect and dissuade Jewish communities from converting to other religions. Medieval Christian writings were also often polemical; for example in their disagreements on Islam or in the vast corpus aimed at converting the Jews. Martin Luther's 95 Theses, nailed to the door of the church in Wittenberg, was a polemic launched against the Catholic Church. Robert Carliell's 1619 defence of the new Church of England and diatribe against the Roman Catholic Church – Britaine's glorie, or An allegoricall dreame with the exposition thereof: containing The Heathens infidelitie in religion ... – took the form of a 250-line poem.

Major political polemicists of the 18th century include Jonathan Swift, with pamphlets such as his A Modest Proposal, Alexander Hamilton, with pieces such as A Full Vindication of the Measures of Congress and A Farmer Refuted, and Edmund Burke, with his attack on the Duke of Bedford.

In the 19th century, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels's 1848 Communist Manifesto was extremely polemical. Both Marx and Engels would publish further polemical works, with Engels's work Anti-Dühring serving as a polemic against Eugen Dühring, and Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme against Ferdinand Lasalle.

Vladimir Lenin would also publish polemics against political opponents. The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky was notably directed against Karl Kautsky, and other works such as The State and Revolution attacked figures including Eduard Bernstein.

In the 20th century, George Orwell's Animal Farm was a polemic against totalitarianism, in particular of Stalinism in the Soviet Union. According to McClinton, other prominent polemicists of the same century include such diverse figures as Herbert Marcuse, Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, and Michael Moore.

In 2007 Brian McClinton argued in Humani that anti-religious books such as Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion are part of the polemic tradition. In 2008 the humanist philosopher A. C. Grayling published a book, Against All Gods: Six Polemics on Religion and an Essay on Kindness.

title: Polemic


text:
User talk:Sikelianos

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Proposed deletion of Polemic

The article Polemic has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
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Nomination of Polemic for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Polemic is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Polemic& until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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title: User talk:Sikelianos


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User talk:Philip.hurst

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title: User talk:Philip.hurst