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Makassar

Makassar, formerly Ujung Pandang , is the capital of the Indonesian province of South Sulawesi. It is the largest city in the region of Eastern Indonesia and the country's fifth-largest urban center after Jakarta, Surabaya, Medan, and Bandung. The city is located on the southwest coast of the island of Sulawesi, facing the Makassar Strait.

Throughout its history, Makassar has been an important trading port, hosting the center of the Gowa Sultanate and a Portuguese naval base before its conquest by the Dutch East India Company in the 17th century. It remained an important port in the Dutch East Indies, serving Eastern Indonesian regions with Makassarese fishers going as far south as the Australian coast. For a brief period after Indonesian independence, Makassar became the capital of the State of East Indonesia, during which an uprising occurred.

The city's area is 175.77 km2, and it had a population of around 1.474 million (732,391 males and 742,002 females) in mid 2023 within Makassar City's fifteen administrative districts. Its official metropolitan area, known as Mamminasata, with the addition of thirty-three further districts of neighbouring regencies, covers an area of 2666.63 km2 and had a population of around 2,795,639 according to the mid 2023 official estimates.

According to the National Development Planning Agency, Makassar is one of the four main central cities of Indonesia, alongside Medan, Jakarta, and Surabaya.

According to Bank Indonesia, Makassar has the second-highest commercial property values in Indonesia, after Greater Jakarta.

Names and etymology
The name Makassar was long spelled Macassar in English and many other European languages, although the Portuguese spelled it Macáçar during their presence there in the 17th century.

The Dutch spelled the name both Makasser and Makassar during their rule over the city as part of the Dutch East Indies. With the independence following World War II, the Indonesians kept the Dutch spelling of Makassar with a double 's', despite the fact that the Indonesian language does not have geminate consonants (although the Makassar and Bugis languages do).

On 1 September 1971, the city was renamed after a variant of the pre-colonial name of the city's Fort Rotterdam, Ujung Pandang (Makassarese: Jumpandang ).

The action was taken at the time Makassar was expanding from its original 21 km2 to encompass neighboring regions to de-emphasise the ethnic connotations of the name, enlarged to its present area. Ujung Pandang remained locally unpopular and, on 13 October 1999, the name reverted to Makassar under President B. J. Habibie, himself a native of South Sulawesi.

In the local language, the city is known as Mangkasara′, written in the Lontara script traditionally used to write Makassarese as well as Buginese, which is also widely spoken in the city.

The adjective form of the city's name and the eponymous ethnic group has varied over time. In English, Macassarese, Makassarese, and Macassan have all been used, although the latter is usually used in the historical context of trepangers in northern Australia (the Macassan contact with Australia) and may include people not from Makassar. More recently, forms such as Makasarese and simply Makasar (both with a single 's') have appeared.

History
The trade in spices figured prominently in the history of Sulawesi, which involved frequent struggles between rival native and foreign powers for control of the lucrative trade during the pre-colonial and colonial period when spices from the region were in high demand in the West. Much of South Sulawesi's early history was written in old texts that can be traced back to the 13th and 14th centuries.

Makassar is mentioned in the Nagarakretagama, a Javanese eulogy composed in 14th century during the reign of Majapahit king Hayam Wuruk. In the text, Makassar is mentioned as an island under Majapahit dominance, alongside Butun, Salaya and Banggawi.

Makassarese Kingdom

The 9th King of Gowa Tumaparisi Kallonna (1512–1546) is described in the royal chronicle as the first Gowa ruler to ally with the nearby trade-oriented polity of Tallo, a partnership which endured throughout Makassar's apogee as an independent kingdom. The center of the dual kingdom was at Sombaopu, near the then mouth of the Jeneberang River about 10 km south of the present city center, where, where an international port and a fortress were gradually developed. First Malay traders (expelled from their Melaka metropolis by the Portuguese in 1511), then Portuguese from at least the 1540s, began to make this port their base for trading to the Spice Islands (Maluku), further east.

The growth of Dutch maritime power over the spice trade after 1600 made Makassar more vital as an alternative port open to all traders, as well as a source of rice to trade with rice-deficient Maluku.

The Dutch East India Company (VOC) sought a monopoly of Malukan nutmeg and cloves and came close to succeeding at the expense of English, Portuguese and Muslims from the 1620s. The Makassar kings maintained a policy of free trade, insisting on the right of any visitor to do business in the city, and rejecting the attempts of the Dutch to establish a monopoly.

Makassar depended mainly on the Muslim Malay and Catholic Portuguese sailors communities as its two crucial economic assets. However the English East India Company also established a post there in 1613, the Danish Company arrived in 1618, and Chinese, Spanish and Indian traders were all important. When the Dutch conquered Portuguese Melaka in 1641, Makassar became the most extensive Portuguese base in Southeast Asia.

The Portuguese population had been in the hundreds but rose to several thousand, served by churches of the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits as well as the regular clergy. By the 16th century, Makassar had become Sulawesi's principal port and center of the powerful Gowa and Tallo sultanates which between them had a series of 11 fortresses and strongholds and a fortified sea wall that extended along the coast.

Portuguese rulers called the city Macáçar. Makassar was very ably led in the first half of the 17th century when it effectively resisted Dutch pressure to close down its trade to Maluku and made allies rather than enemies of the neighboring Bugis states. Karaeng Matoaya (c.1573–1636) was the ruler of Tallo from 1593, as well as Chancellor or Chief Minister (Tuma'bicara-butta) of the partner kingdom of Gowa. He managed the succession to the Gowa throne in 1593 of the 7-year-old boy later known as Sultan Alaud-din, and guided him through the acceptance of Islam in 1603, numerous modernizations in military and civil governance, and cordial relations with the foreign traders. The conversion of the citizens to Islam was followed by the first official Friday Prayer in the city, traditionally dated to 9 November 1607, which is celebrated today as the city's official anniversary. John Jourdain called Makassar in his day "the kindest people in all the Indias to strangers".

Matoaya's eldest son succeeded him on the throne of Tallo, but as Chancellor, he had evidently groomed his brilliant second son, Karaeng Pattingalloang (1600–54), who exercised that position from 1639 until his death. Pattingalloang must have been partly educated by Portuguese, since as an adult he spoke Portuguese "as fluently as people from Lisbon itself", and avidly read all the books that came his way in Portuguese, Spanish or Latin. A French Jesuit, Father Alexandre de Rhodes, described Pattingalloang's passion for mathematics and astronomy, on which he pestered the priest endlessly, while even one of his Dutch adversaries conceded he was "a man of great knowledge, science and understanding".

Dutch colonial period
After Pattingalloang's death in 1654, a new king of Gowa, Sultan Hasanuddin, rejected the alliance with Tallo by declaring he would be his own Chancellor. Conflicts within the kingdom quickly escalated, the Bugis rebelled under the leadership of Bone, and the Dutch VOC seized its long-awaited chance to conquer Makassar with the help of the Bugis (1667–69).

Their first conquest in 1667 was the northern Makassar fort of Ujung Pandang, while in 1669 they conquered and destroyed Sombaopu in one of the greatest battles of 17th century Indonesia. The VOC moved the city center northward, around the Ujung Pandang fort they rebuilt and renamed Fort Rotterdam. From this base, they managed to destroy the strongholds of the Sultan of Gowa, who was then forced to live on the outskirts of Makassar. Following the Java War (1825–30), Prince Diponegoro was exiled to Fort Rotterdam until his death in 1855.

After the arrival of the Dutch, there was an important Portuguese community, also called a bandel, that received the name of Borrobos.

Around 1660 the leader of this community, which today would be equivalent to a neighbourhood, was the Portuguese Francisco Vieira de Figueiredo.

The character of this old trading center changed as a walled city known as Vlaardingen grew. Gradually, in defiance of the Dutch, the Arabs, Malays and Buddhist returned to trade outside the fortress walls and were joined later by the Chinese. The town again became a collecting point for the produce of eastern Indonesia – the copra, rattan, Pearls, trepang and sandalwood and the famous oil made from bado nuts used in Europe as men's hairdressing – hence the anti-macassars (embroidered cloths protecting the head-rests of upholstered chairs).

Although the Dutch controlled the coast, it was not until the early 20th century that they gained power over the southern interior through a series of treaties with local rulers. Meanwhile, Dutch missionaries converted many of the Toraja people to Christianity. By 1938, the population of Makassar had reached around 84,000 – a town described by writer Joseph Conrad as "the prettiest and perhaps, cleanest looking of all the towns in the islands".

During World War II, the Makassar area was defended by approximately 1000 men of the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army commanded by Colonel M. Vooren. He decided that he could not defend the coast, and was planning to fight a guerrilla war inland. The Japanese landed near Makassar on 9 February 1942. The defenders retreated but were soon overtaken and captured.

After independence
In 1945, Indonesia proclaimed its Independence, and in 1946, Makassar became the capital of the State of East Indonesia, part of the United States of Indonesia. In 1950, it was the site of fighting between pro-Federalist forces under Captain Kahar Muzakkar and Republican forces under Colonel Sunkono during the Makassar uprising.

Connection with Australia
Makassar is also a significant fishing center in Sulawesi. One of its major industries is the trepang (sea cucumber) industry. Trepang fishing brought the Makassan people into contact with Indigenous Australian peoples of northern Australia, long before European settlement (from 1788).

C. C. MacKnight in his 1976 work entitled Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia has shown that they began frequenting the north of Australia around 1700 in search of trepang (sea-slug, sea cucumber, Beche-de-mer), an edible Holothurian. They left their waters during the Northwest Monsoon in December or January for what is now Arnhem Land, Marriage or Marega and the Kimberley region or Kayu Djawa. They returned home with the south-east trade winds in April.

A fleet of between 24 and 26 Macassan perahus was seen in 1803 by French explorers under Nicolas Baudin on the Holothuria Banks in the Timor Sea. In February 1803, Matthew Flinders in the Investigator met six perahus with 20–25 men each on board and was told by the fleet's chief Pobasso, that there were 60 perahus then on the north Australian coast. They were fishing for trepang and appeared to have only a small compass as a navigation aid. In June 1818 Macassan trepang fishing was noted by Phillip Parker King in the vicinity of Port Essington in the Arafura Sea.

In 1865, R.J. Sholl, then Government Resident for the British settlement at Camden Sound (near Augustus Island in the Kimberley region) observed seven 'Macassan' perahus with a total of around 300 men on board. He believed that they made kidnapping raids and ranged as far south as Roebuck Bay (later Broome) where 'quite a fleet' was seen around 1866. Sholl believed that they did not venture south into other areas such as Nickol Bay (where the European pearling industry commenced around 1865) due to the absence of trepang in those waters.

The Macassan voyages appear to have ceased sometime in the late nineteenth century, and their place was taken by other sailors operating from elsewhere in the Indonesian archipelago.

Economy
The city is one of Indonesia's primary ports, with regular international and domestic shipping connections. It is nationally famous as an essential port of call for the pinisi ships, wooden sailing ships which are among the last in use for regular long-distance trade.

During the colonial era, the city was widely known as the namesake of Makassar oil, which it exported in substantial quantity. Makassar ebony is a warm black hue, streaked with tan or brown tones, and highly prized for use in making fine cabinetry and veneers.

Nowadays, as the largest city in Sulawesi and Eastern Indonesia, the city's economy depends highly on the service sector, which makes up approximately 70% of activity. Restaurant and hotel services are the most significant contributor (29.14%), followed by transportation and communication (14.86%), trading (14.86), and finance (10.58%). Industrial activity is the next most important after the service sector, with 21.34% of overall activity. The Makassar Industrial Estate (Kawasan Industri Makassar), located within the city's boundaries, measures at 270.84 hectares.

Transportation
Makassar has a public transportation system called pete-pete. A pete-pete (known elsewhere in Indonesia as an angkot) is a minibus that has been modified to carry passengers. The route of Makassar's pete-petes is denoted by the letter on the windshield. Makassar is also known for its becak (pedicabs), which are smaller than the "becak" on the island of Java. In addition to becak and pete-pete, the city has a government-run bus system, taxis and ride-hailing services such as Gojek.

A bus rapid transit (BRT), which is known as "Trans Mamminasata" was started in 2014. It has some routes through Makassar and connects to nearby cities including Maros, Takallar, and Gowa. Run by the Indonesian Transportation Department, each bus can accommodate 20 standing passengers in addition to 20 seats.

A 35-kilometer monorail in the areas of Makassar, Maros Regency, Sungguminasa (Gowa Regency), and Takalar Regency (the Mamminasata region) was proposed in 2011, with operations commencing in 2014, at a predicted cost of Rp.4 trillion ($468 million). The memorandum of understanding was signed on 25 July 2011 by Makassar city, Maros Regency and Gowa Regency. In 2014, the project was officially abandoned, citing insufficient ridership and a lack of financial feasibility.

The city of Makassar, its outlying districts, and the South Sulawesi Province are served by Hasanuddin International Airport. The airport is located outside the Makassar city administration area, being situated in the nearby Maros Regency. The city is served by Soekarno-Hatta Sea Port. In January 2012 it was announced that due to limited capacity of the current dock at Soekarno-Hatta sea port, it would be expanded to 150x30 square meters to avoid the need for at least two ships to queue every day.

Administration and governance
The executive head of the city is the mayor, who is elected by direct vote for a period of five years. The mayor is assisted by a deputy mayor, who is also an elected official. There is a legislative assembly for the city, members of which are also elected for a period of five years.

Administrative districts
Makassar City is divided into 15 administrative districts (kecamatan) and subdivided into 153 urban villages (kelurahan). The districts are listed below with their areas and their populations at the 2010 Census and the 2020 Census, together with the official estimates as at mid 2023. The table also includes the number of administrative villages (all classed as urban kelurahan) in each district.

Note (a) The 2010 population of the Sangkarrang Islands District (Kecamatan Kepulauan Sangkarrang) is included in the figure for the Ujung Tanah district, from which it was cut out.

Metropolitan area (Mamminasata)
The metropolitan area including Makassar is known as Mamminasata, an acronym of Makassar and the neighboring areas of Maros, Sungguminasa (Gowa) and Takalar.

This official metropolitan area covers 2,666.63 km2 and had a population of 2,698,915 at the 2020 Census; the official estimate as at mid 2023 was 2,795,639. The metropolitan area of Makassar extends over forty-eight administrative districts (kecamatan), consisting of all fifteen districts within the city, all ten districts of Takalar Regency, eleven (out of eighteen) districts of Gowa Regency and twelve (out of fourteen) districts of Maros Regency.

The districts of Takalar Regency which are included in the metro area are: Mangarabombang, Mappakasunggu, Sanrobone, Kepulauan Tanakeke, Polombangkeng Selatan, Pattallassang, Polombangkeng Utara, Galesong Selatan, Galesong and Galesong Utara. The districts of Gowa Regency which are included in the metro area are: Somba Opu, Bontomarannu, Pallangga, Bajeng, Bajeng Barat, Barombong, Manuju, Pattallassang, Parangloe, Bontonompo and Bontonompo Selatan. The districts of Maros Regency which are included in the metro area are: Maros Baru, Turikale, Marusu, Mandai, Moncongloe, Bontoa, Lau, Tanralili, Tompo Bulu, Bantimurung, Simbang and Cenrana.

Media
The oldest newspaper in the Makassar region is Fajar, part of Jawa Pos Group. Several other newspapers such as Tribun Timur and Ujungpandang Ekspres are also available.

The privately owned Fajar TV are the local TV stations based in Makassar. The public TVRI South Sulawesi is also covered the city.

Climate
Makassar has a tropical monsoon climate (Köppen Am). The average temperature for the year in Makassar is 27.5 °C, with little variation due to its near-equatorial latitude: the average high is around 32.5 C and the average low around 22.5 C all year long.

In contrast to the virtually consistent temperature, rainfall shows wide variation between months due to the movement of the Intertropical Convergence Zone. Makassar averages around 3086 mm of rain on 163 days during the year, but during the month with least rainfall – August – only 15 mm on one day of rain can be expected. In contrast, during its wet season, Makassar can expect more than 500 mm per month between December and February. During the wettest month of January, 734 mm can be expected to fall on twenty-seven rainy days.

Demographics
Makassar is a multi-ethnic city, populated mostly by Makassarese and Buginese. The remainder are Torajans, Mandarese, Butonese, Chinese and Javanese. The current population in mid 2023 is approximately 1,474,393, with a Metropolitan total of 2,795,639.

Education

 * State University of Makassar
 * Hasanuddin University
 * Alauddin Islamic State University
 * Muhammadiyah University of Makassar
 * Muslim University of Indonesia
 * Merchant Marine Polytechnic of Makassar
 * Aviation Polytechnic of Makassar

By 2007, the city government began requiring all skirts of schoolgirls to be below the knee.

Traditional cuisine
Makassar has several famous traditional foods, the most famous of which is coto makassar. It is a soto (stew) made from a mixture of nuts, spices, and selected offal which may include beef brain, tongue and intestine. Konro, a rib dish, is also a popular traditional food in Makassar. Both coto makassar and konro are usually consumed with burasa or ketupat, a glutinous rice cake. Another famous dish from Makassar is ayam goreng sulawesi (Celebes fried chicken); the chicken is marinated with a traditional soy sauce recipe for up to 24 hours before being fried to a golden color. The dish is usually served with chicken broth, rice and special sambal (chilli sauce).

In addition, Makassar is the home of pisang epe (pressed banana), as well as pisang ijo (green banana). Pisang epe is a banana which is pressed, grilled, and covered with palm sugar sauce and sometimes consumed with durian. Many street vendors sell pisang epe, especially around the area of Losari Beach. Pisang ijo is a banana covered with green colored flour, coconut milk, and syrup. Pisang ijo is sometimes served iced and local fasting Muslims often consume it at iftar during Ramadan.

Notable people

 * Hoo Eng Djie (c. 1907–1960), songwriter and poet
 * Syahrul Yasin Limpo (born 1955) Minister of Agriculture
 * Asnawi Mangkualam (born 1999), footballer for the Indonesian National Team and the Port F.C.
 * Andi Ramang (born 1924) footballer
 * Denny Sumargo (born 1981) former professional basketball player.
 * Febriyanto Wijaya (born 1990), footballer
 * Abdurrahman Shihab (c. 1915–1986) academician, politician, and Qur'anic interpretation expert.
 * Sheikh Yusuf (c. 1626-1669) well-known Ulama.
 * Abraham Samad (born 1966) lawyer and activist who was elected in 2011 as chairman of the country's Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) for period 2011 till 2015.
 * Syamsul Chaeruddin (born 1983) former professional football player. Has represented the Indonesian National Team.
 * Kusuma Wardhani (c. 1964–2023) former archer representing Indonesia in the Olympics.
 * M. Rahmat (born 1988) footballer for Bali United.
 * Hasanuddin of Gowa (c. 1631-1670) National Hero of Indonesia.

title: Makassar


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Oscar Bernadotte

Prince Oscar Carl August Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg (15 November 1859 – 4 October 1953) was a Swedish religious activist, the second son of King Oscar II of Sweden and his consort, Sofia of Nassau. Born as a Prince of Sweden and Norway, he was known as Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland. However, by marrying contrary to Swedish constitutional requirements, he lost those titles, becoming instead Luxembourgish nobility as Prince Bernadotte and Count of Wisborg.

Career
Prince Oscar, before his marriage, served in the Swedish Navy, where he was enlisted for 25 years and attained the rank of Vice Admiral. In his youth, he visited the United States several times, beginning in 1876, and sailed around the world from 1883 to 1885 on the Vanadis.

Bernadotte was very active in social organizations, especially religious ones, such as the YMCA of Sweden and Friends of Mission to the Laps, both of which he chaired for many years. As the only member of Swedish royalty known to be born again, he founded the Södertälje Conferences, as inspired by the Keswick Convention, in 1898 and was an engaging inter-denominational Christian lay preacher of wide repute.

Title
Through Oscar's marriage in Bournemouth on 15 March 1888 to Swedish noblewoman Ebba Munck af Fulkila, lady-in-waiting to the Crown Princess, without the consent of his father, the King, he gave up his right of succession to the Swedish throne and his royal title.

Ebba was a lady-in-waiting of the crown princess, Victoria of Baden, who in 1885 visited her brother-in-law in Amsterdam, where he was to undergo a medical examination. Ebba and Oscar visited the Norwegian sailor church during their stay in Amsterdam and fell in love: Ebba was religious and influenced Oscar in this regard. When Oscar told his family that he wished to marry Ebba, they were scandalized. He was forced to take a two-year consideration period, and Ebba was dismissed as a lady-in-waiting. In 1887, Oscar told his family that he had not changed his mind, and the royal house gave its consent to the marriage on condition that Oscar's brothers signed a document promising that they should never enter a similar marriage, which they did. On 21 January 1888, a ball was arranged at the Royal Palace of Stockholm, where Ebba and Oscar were allowed to dance with each other, and on 29 January 1888, the engagement was formally announced. The match was regarded as a great sorrow within the royal house, but it received a lot of sympathy from the public. It was said that a bridge had been placed between the people and the royal house, "The Munck bridge", and the fact that Oscar had to give up his royal title made people say that the king no longer had four sons but only three, as one of them "married and had to quit". When the couple left Stockholm, a large crowd had gathered at the train station to see them off and show their support.

They were married on 15 March 1888 in St Stephen's Church at Bournemouth in England by the vicar Gustaf Beskow, who was close to the queen, Sofia of Nassau, in the presence of Oscar's mother, Queen Sophia, two of his brothers (Prince Carl, Duke of Västergötland, and Prince Eugen, Duke of Närke), his cousin the Danish crown princess Louise of Sweden, as well as the mother and brother of Ebba.

He and his wife were named with new titles as Prince and Princess Bernadotte as of their wedding day. It has never been determined if that was a Swedish title of nobility or another form of unofficial courtesy title (such as some later dynasty members have been given). On 2 April 1892, he and his wife were given personal noble titles as Prince and Princess Bernadotte when admitted into the nobility of Luxembourg by Oscar's uncle Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, previously Duke of Nassau, and also then given a Luxembourgish hereditary title as Count and Countess of Wisborg. Wisborg was derived from Visborg, castle ruins in Oscar's former Duchy of Gotland. The Prince Couple, as they were called, at first lived in Karlskrona, but in 1892 moved to Stockholm and remained there. They maintained summer residences at Villa Fridhem in Gotland and Malmsjö Manor in Sudermania.

Personal life
His wife was the daughter of Carl Jacob Munck af Fulkila (1808–1882) and his spouse, Baroness Henrika Ulrika Antoinetta Cederström (1819–1912).

They had five children:
 * Countess Maria Sophie Henrietta Bernadotte af Wisborg (1889–1974)
 * Count Carl Oscar Bernadotte af Wisborg (1890–1977)
 * Ebba Sofia Fleetwood (1892–1936)
 * Elsa Victoria Cedergren (1893–1996)
 * Count Folke Bernadotte af Wisborg (1895–1948)

He was the last surviving son of Oscar II.

Honours

 * Swedish and Norwegian honours
 * Knight and Commander of the Seraphim, 15 November 1859
 * Knight of the Order of Charles XIII, 15 November 1859
 * Grand Cross of St. Olav, with Collar
 * King Oscar II and Queen Sofia's Golden Wedding Medal
 * King Oscar II's Jubilee Commemorative Medal
 * Crown Prince Gustaf V and Crown Princess Silver Wedding Medal
 * King Gustaf V's Jubilee Commemorative Medal (1928)
 * King Gustaf V's Jubilee Commemorative Medal (1948)

• 🇩🇰 Denmark: Knight of the Elephant, 20 July 1880
 * Foreign honours

• 🇬🇷 Greek Royal Family: Grand Cross of the Redeemer

• 🇲🇨 Monaco: Grand Cross of St. Charles

• Portuguese Royal Family: Grand Cross of the Tower and Sword

•  Russian Imperial Family:

• * Knight of St. Andrew

• * Knight of St. Alexander Nevsky

• * Knight of the White Eagle

• * Knight of St. Anna, 1st Class

• * Knight of St. Stanislaus, 1st Class

• 🇱🇺 Luxembourg: Grand Cross of Adolphe of Nassau

•  Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal Family: Grand Cross of St. Stephen, 1885

•  Brazilian Imperial Family: Grand Cross of the Southern Cross

•  Hawaiian Royal Family: Grand Cross of the Order of Kamehameha I

•  German Imperial and Royal Family:

• * Knight of the Black Eagle

• * Grand Cross of the Red Eagle

• * Baden Grand Ducal Family:

• ** Knight of the House Order of Fidelity, 1881

• ** Knight of the Order of Berthold the First, 1881

• * Saxe-Weimar Grand Ducal Family: Grand Cross of the White Falcon, 1881

•  Empire of Japan: Grand Cordon of the Order of the Chrysanthemum, 3 September 1884

• 🇹🇭 Siam:

• * Knight of the Order of the Royal House of Chakri, 13 July 1897

• * Grand Cross of the Crown of Siam

• 🇧🇪 Belgium: Grand Cordon of the Royal Order of Leopold I

• 🇹🇳 Tunisian Royal Family: Order of the Fundamental Pact

•  Turkish Imperial Family:

• * Order of Osmanieh, 1st Class

• * Gold and Silver Imtiyaz Medals

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Oscar Bernadotte


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Benny Moré

Bartolomé Maximiliano Moré Gutiérrez (24 August 1919 – 19 February 1963), better known as Benny Moré (also spelled Beny Moré), was a Cuban singer, bandleader and songwriter. Due to his fluid tenor voice and his great expressivity, he was known variously as "El Bárbaro del Ritmo" and "El Sonero Mayor". Moré was a master of the soneo – the art of vocal improvisation in son cubano – and many of his tunes developed this way. He often took part in controversias (vocal duels) with other singers, including Cheo Marquetti and Joseíto Fernández. Apart from son cubano, Moré was a popular singer of guarachas, cha cha cha, mambo, son montuno, and boleros.

Moré started his career with the Trío Matamoros in the 1940s and after a tour in Mexico he decided to stay in the country. Both Moré and dancer Ninón Sevilla made their cinematic debut in 1946's Carita de cielo, but Moré focused on his music career. In the late 1940s, he sang guaracha-mambos with Pérez Prado, achieving great success. Moré returned to Cuba in 1952 and worked with Bebo Valdés and Ernesto Duarte. In 1953, he formed the Banda Gigante, which became one of the leading Cuban big bands of the 1950s. He suffered from alcoholism and died of liver cirrhosis in 1963 at the age of 43.

Early life
The eldest of 18 children, Moré was born in the town of Santa Isabel de las Lajas in the former Santa Clara Province, current Cienfuegos Province, in central Cuba. His parents were Virginia Moré and Silvestre Gutiérrez. His maternal great-great grandfather, Ta Ramón Gundo Paredes (later changed to Ta Ramón Gundo Moré), was said to be the son of the king of a tribe in the Kingdom of Kongo who was captured by slave traders and sold to a Cuban plantation owner named Ramon Paredes and subsequently to another Cuban landowner named Conde Moré (Paredes/Moré was later liberated and died as a freeman at age 94.)

As a child, Moré learned to play the guitar, making his first instrument at the age of six, according to his mother, from "a stick and a sardine can that served as the sound box". In 1936, at the age of 17, he left Las Lajas for Havana, where he made a living by selling bruised and damaged fruits and vegetables and medicinal herbs. Six months later, he returned to Las Lajas and went to cut cane for a season with his brother Teodoro. With the money he earned and Teodoro's savings, Moré bought his first guitar in Morón, Cuba.

Career
In 1940, Moré returned to Havana. He lived from hand-to-mouth, playing in bars and cafés, passing the hat. His first breakthrough was winning a radio competition. In the early 1940s, radio station CMQ had a program called The Supreme Court of Art, in which a wide variety of artists participated. Winners were given contracts by unscrupulous businessmen, who exploited them. The less fortunate were treated to the humiliation of a loud church bell that brutally terminated their performances.

In his first appearance, Moré had scarcely begun to sing when the bell sounded, and he was booed off the stage. He later competed again and won first prize. He then landed his first stable job with the Conjunto Cauto led by Mozo Borgellá. He also sang with success on the radio station CMZ with Lázaro Cordero's Sexteto Fígaro. In 1941, Moré made his debut on Radio Mil Diez, performing with the Conjunto Cauto, directed by Mozo Borgella.

Conjunto Matamoros and Mexico
Ciro Rodríguez, of the famed Trío Matamoros, heard Moré singing in the bar El Temple and was greatly impressed. In 1942, Conjunto Matamoros was engaged for a live performance for Radio Mil Diez. However, Miguel Matamoros was indisposed and asked Mozo Borgellá to lend him a singer. Borgellá sent Moré, who worked for several years with Conjunto Matamoros, making a number of recordings.

Moré replaced Miguel Matamoros as lead singer, and the latter dedicated himself to leading the band. On 21 June 1945, Moré went with Conjunto Matamoros to Mexico, where he performed in two of the most famous cabarets: the Montparnasse and the Río Rosa. He made several recordings. Conjunto Matamoros returned to Havana, but Moré remained in Mexico. Rafael Cueto said to him: "Fine, but just remember that they call burros 'bartolo' here. Stay, but change your name." "Ok," replied Moré, "from now on my name is Beny, Beny Moré." Moré was left penniless and got permission to work from the performing artists' union. With this, he was able to get a job at the Río Rosa, where he formed the Dueto Fantasma (also known as Dueto Antillano) with Lalo Montané, in December 1945.

In Mexico City, Moré made recordings for RCA Victor, with Perez Prado: "Anabacoa", "Bonito y Sabroso", "Mucho Corazón", "Pachito Eché", "La Múcura", "Rabo y Oreja" and other numbers. He recorded "Dolor Karabalí", which Moré considered his best composition recorded with Pérez Prado, one he never wanted to re-record, also his recording in Mexico with Rafael de Paz Orchestra of "Bonito y Sabroso" was never recorded again by Moré, even though his famous composition of the months prior to leaving Mexico became in time the theme of his big band in Cuba. Moré was always reluctant to record newer versions of his hit songs, as he thought "you don't fix what's not broken". Moré and Prado recorded 28 songs in total, mostly mambos.

Moré also recorded with the orchestra of Mariano Mercerón: "Me Voy Pa'l Pueblo", "Desdichado", "Mucho Corazon", "Ensalada de Mambo", "Rumberos de Ayer" and "Encantado de la Vida" with "El Conjunto de Lalo Montane", a Colombian singer and composer, with which he recorded in Mexico, conforming a famous duo called "The Phantom Duet" or "Dueto Fantasma". He also recorded with Mexican orchestras, specially with the one directed by Rafael de Paz; they recorded "Yiri Yiri Bon", "La Culebra", "Mata Siguaraya", "Solamente Una Vez" and "Bonito y Sabroso", a mambo song where he praises the dancing skills of the Mexicans and claims that Mexico City and La Habana are sister cities. In this time Benny also recorded with the orchestra of Jesús "Chucho" Rodríguez. El "Chucho" was so impressed with Benny's musical ability that he referred to him as "El Bárbaro del Ritmo".

Moré and other performers such as Amalia Aguilar appeared as themselves in the Ernesto Cortázar-directed 1949 film En cada puerto un amor, a film in the musical comedy and drama genres.

Return to Cuba
During the spring of 1952, around April, Moré returned to Cuba. He was a star in Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Panama, Colombia, Brazil and Puerto Rico, but virtually unknown on the island. His first Cuban recordings were with Mariano Mercerón & his Orchestra, including songs such as "Fiesta de Tambores", "Salomón", "La Chola", among others. Moré began alternating between performances in the Cadena Oriental radio station and trips to Havana to record at the RCA studios in CMQ Radiocentro.

In Havana, Moré worked for the radio station RHC-Cadena Azul, with the orchestra of Bebo Valdés, who introduced the new style called "batanga". The presenter of the show, Ibraín Urbino, presented him as El Bárbaro del Ritmo. They offered him the opportunity to record with Sonora Matancera, but he declined the offer because he did not care for the sound of the group. After the batanga fell out of fashion, Moré was contracted by Radio Progreso with the orchestra of Ernesto Duarte Brito. In addition to the radio, he also performed at dances, cabarets and parties. When he sang in Havana's Centro Gallego, people filled the sidewalks and the gardens of the Capitolio to hear him. In 1952, Moré made a recording with the Orquesta Aragón with whom he would perform in dance halls. Orquesta Aragón was from Cienfuegos and was having trouble breaking into Havana and Moré helped them in this way.

Banda Gigante
Also in 1952, Moré was told that Duarte Brito was not taking Moré to certain Saturday engagements because Moré was black. Moré was furious and brought the issue up to the RCA Records agent in Cuba (Maurico Conde). When nothing was done, Moré decided to form his own orchestra. The first performance of Moré's Banda Gigante was in the CMQ radio program Cascabeles Candado on August 3, 1953. The original lineup featured Ignacio Cabrera "Cabrerita" (piano); Miguel Franca, Santiago Peñalver, Roberto Barreto, Celso Gómez and Virgilio Vixama (saxophones); Alfredo "Chocolate" Armenteros, Rigoberto "Rabanito" Jiménez and Domingo Corbacho (trumpets); José Miguel Gómez (trombone); Alberto Limonta (double bass); Tabaquito (congas); Clemente Piquero "Chicho" (bongos); Rolando Laserie (drums), and Fernando Álvarez and Enrique Benitez (vocals). The Banda was generally sixteen musicians, comparable in size with the orchestras of Xavier Cugat and Pérez Prado. Although Moré could not read music, he arranged material by singing parts to his arrangers, which included pianists Cabrerita and Peruchín, as well as trombonist Generoso Jiménez.

Between the years 1953 and 1955, the Banda Gigante became immensely popular. Their first recording session took place in November 1953, which included the hit "Manzanillo". Other hits followed, including self-penned songs such as "Mi saoco", "Santa Isabel de las Lajas", "Cienfuegos" and "Dolor y perdón". In 1956 and 1957, they toured Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Jamaica, Haiti, Colombia, Panama, Mexico and the United States, where the group played at the Academy Awards. In Havana, they played at a multitude of dance halls and cabarets such as the Tropicana Club, La Campana, El Sierra, Night and Day, Alí Bar Club, and the Hotel Habana Riviera and Hotel Tryp Habana Libre.

Moré was offered a tour of Europe, France in particular, but he rejected it because of his fear of flying; he had by that time been in three airplane accidents.

Final years
In the aftermath of the Cuban Revolution, many of Cuba's top musical figures emigrated, but Moré stayed in Cuba, among, as he said, "mi gente" (my people).

Death
Moré suffered from alcoholism and died of cirrhosis of the liver in 1963 at the age of 43. His funeral was attended by tens of thousands of people.

Awards and recognition
Moré has been cited as the greatest singer in Cuban music history by critics and musicians. In 1999, Moré was posthumously inducted into the International Latin Music Hall of Fame and the Latin Songwriters Hall of Fame in 2016. The Benny Moré Memorial Award was named in honor of the artist and was given to artists who were influential in Latin music. On 11 June 2006, Moré was honored with a star on the Walk of Fame at Celia Cruz Park in Union City, New Jersey, a heavily Cuban-American community that has hosted musical presentations and multimedia lectures on the singer.

Legacy
Beny Moré appears as a character in the novel The Island of Eternal Love  (Penguin Random House, 2008), by Cuban-American writer Daína Chaviano, who also concludes her novel with a chapter entitled "Today as Yesterday", one of the best interpretations of this singer. Moré is also remembered in the 2006 film El Benny, which is based on parts of his life, and includes new versions of his songs performed by musicians including Chucho Valdés, Juan Formell and Orishas.

Numerous tribute albums consisting of cover versions of Moré's songs have been released by artists such as Tito Puente (1978, 1979 and 1985), Charanga de la 4 (1981), Bobby Carcassés (1985), Tropicana All-Stars (2004) and Jon Secada (2017).

Selected discography
Records from 1963 onwards include at least one or more unreleased songs.

 * El Inigualable (Discuba, 1957)
 * The Most From Beny Moré (Victor, 1958; recorded 1955–1957)
 * Así es... (Victor, 1958)
 * Pare... que llegó el bárbaro (Victor/Discuba, 1958)
 * Así es... Beny (Discuba, 1958)
 * La Época de Oro (Victor, 1958)
 * Magia antillana (Victor, 1960; recorded 1949–1953)
 * El Barbaro del Ritmo with Perez Prado and Rafael De Paz (Victor, 1962; recorded 1949–1951)
 * Homenaje póstumo (Discuba, 1963; recorded 1960)
 * Benny More Y Su Orquesta... (Palma, 1964)
 * Recordando (RCA Camden, 1964)
 * Lo Mejor de Beny Moré (RCA, 1965)
 * La Época De Oro Vol.II (RCA, 1969)
 * y Su Salsa de Siempre (RCA, 1978)
 * Grandes Exitos (Darcole Music, 1979)
 * Ensalada De Mambo (RCA, 1980)
 * Lo Último Que Cantó Beny More (Integra, 1980)
 * Lo Desconocido De Beny More (RCA, 1982)
 * Cubanísimo-1 with Trío Matamoros and Ernesto Duarte's orchestra (Producciones Preludio, 1983; recorded 1945–1947)
 * Leyendas Musicales (Producciones Preludio, 1986)
 * Beny Moré Canta Con... (RCA, 1988)
 * Conjunto Matamoros With Beny Moré with Conjunto Matamoros (Tumbao Cuban Classics, 1992; recorded 1945–1947)
 * El Barbaro del Ritmo with Perez Prado (Tumbao Cuban Classics, 1992; recorded 1949–1951)
 * Benny Moré En Vivo (Discmedi, 1995; recorded 1957)
 * Benny More Canta Boleros (Estudios EGREM, 2006; recorded 1953–1960)

title: Benny Moré


text:
Prince Oscar of Sweden

Prince Oscar of Sweden may refer to:

 * Prince Oscar Bernadotte (1859–1953), second son of King Oscar II
 * Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (born 2016), only son and second child of Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden

title: Prince Oscar of Sweden


text:
User talk:Rrjanbiah

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title: User talk:Rrjanbiah


text:
Apries

Apries (Ἁπρίης) is the name by which Herodotus (ii. 161) and Diodorus (i. 68) designate Wahibre Haaibre, a pharaoh of Egypt (589 BC – 570 BC), the fourth king (counting from Psamtik I) of the Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt. He was equated with the Waphres of Manetho, who correctly records that he reigned for 19 years. Apries is also called Hophra in Jeremiah 44:30 (Ουαφρη[ς]).

Biography
Apries inherited the throne from his father, pharaoh Psamtik II, in February 589 BC. Apries was an active builder who constructed "additions to the temples at Athribis (Tell Atrib), Bahariya Oasis, Memphis and Sais." In Year 4 of his reign, Apries' sister Ankhnesneferibre was adopted as the new God's Wife of Amun at Thebes. However, Apries' reign was also fraught with internal problems. In 588 BC, Apries dispatched a force to Jerusalem to protect it from Babylonian forces sent by Nebuchadnezzar II (Jer. 37:5; 34:21). His forces quickly withdrew, however, apparently avoiding a major confrontation with the Babylonians. Jerusalem, following an 18-month-long siege, was destroyed by the Babylonians in either 587 BC or 586 BC. Apries's unsuccessful attempt to intervene in the politics of the Kingdom of Judah was followed by a mutiny of soldiers from the strategically important Aswan garrison.

According to classical historians, Apries campaigned in the Levant, took Sidon and so terrified the other cities of Phoenicia that he secured their submission. However, this supposed submission was likely short lived. A recently uncovered stela from Tahpanhes records that Nebuchadnezzar II attempted to invade Egypt in 582 BC, but Apries' forces were capable to repel the invasion.

In Cyrenaica to the west, Battus II of Cyrene had encouraged further Greek settlement in his city, especially from the Peloponnese and Crete. This sparked conflict with the indigenous Libyans, whose king Adicran appealed to Apries for help around 570 BC. Apries launched a military expedition against Cyrene, but was decisively defeated at the Battle of Irasa.

When the defeated army returned home, a civil war broke out in the Egyptian army between the indigenous troops and the foreign mercenaries. The Egyptians threw their support to Amasis II, a general who had led Egyptian forces in a highly successful invasion of Nubia in 592 BC under Pharaoh Psamtik II, Apries' father. Amasis quickly declared himself pharaoh in 570 BC, and Apries fled Egypt and sought refuge in a foreign country. When Apries marched back to Egypt in 567 BC with the aid of a Babylonian army to reclaim the throne of Egypt, he was likely killed in battle with Amasis' forces. Alternatively, Herodotus (Histories 2.169) holds that Apries survived the battle, and was captured and treated well by the victorious Amasis, until the Egyptian people demanded justice against him, whereby he was placed into their hands and strangled to death. Amasis thus secured his kingship over Egypt and was then its unchallenged ruler.

Amasis, however, reportedly treated Apries' mortal remains with respect and observed the proper funerary rituals by having Apries' body carried to Sais and buried there with "full military honours." Amasis, the former general who had declared himself pharaoh, also married Apries' daughter, Khedebneithirbinet II, to legitimise his accession to power. While Herodotus claimed that the wife of Apries was called Nitetis (Νιτῆτις) (in Greek), "there are no contemporary references naming her" in Egyptian records.

Eusebius placed the eclipse of Thales in 585 BC, in the eighth or twelfth year of Apries' reign.

Monuments
An obelisk which Apries erected at Sais was moved by the 3rd century AD Roman Emperor Diocletian and originally placed at the Temple of Isis in Rome. It is today located in front of the Santa Maria sopra Minerva basilica church in Rome.

title: Apries


text:
Talk:Silesia/Archive 6

State of the debate (list of issues)
I think this topic holds the record for "most archives of a talk page". Isn't there any area of argeement? Please, someone just list all the disputed points. Then we can go through them one by one. I can help, if people want me to. --Uncle Ed 18:28, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion there are 2 main areas of the dispute: the intro paragraph and the history section.
 * (1) Should this article and the introduction paragraph be focused on modern or historical Silesia

 * (2) The boundaries of Silesia: is Silesia part of Poland and Czechia only, or Germany too.
 * (2a) Is the Goerlitz area part of Silesia or part of historical Lusatia and Saxony now
 * (2b) Are the historcial duchies of Siewierz, Oswiecim, Zator and Zywiec part of Silesia or not. This is imprortant because they were part of Poland since the 15th century
 * (2c) Is the Czech Silesia: Ostrava/Opava/Karniow/CeskyTesin area part of Silesia?
 * (2d) Is the Klodzko area part of Silesia?

 * (3) Were the ties of Silesia with Poland, Czechia, Austria, Germany decreasing/increasing? What are these ties (political, eclessiastical, economic, ethnic, cultural)?
 * (3a) What was the ethnic majority of Silesia in various times (prevailing ethnic ties)?
 * (3b) What were the prevailing political belonging of Silesia in various historical periods?
 * (3c) What were the prevailing eclessiatical (also educational/religious) ties?
 * (3d) What were the prevailing economic ties of Silesia?
 * (3e) What were the prevailing cultural ties of Silesia?

 * (4) Should the Silesian name (Ślunsk, Ślonsk) be also mentioned?

I think that everybody should answer these questions before we can proceed. CC, 19:37, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answers: Modern or historcal region

 * (1) Should this article and the introduction paragraph be focused on modern or historical Silesia

Silesia is a live province of 10 million people. I suggest that the first paragraph should describe its current status, division and people. And the second paragraph should describe the outline of its rich history. (see suggestion below) CC, 20:41, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't like the historical bias of the intro. This intro describes Silesia as a dead province of the past. Silesia is a live province of 10 million people. I suggest that the first paragraph should describe its current status, division and people. And the second paragraph shoul describe its rich history.

 * Silesia is an historical region. The opening sentences are quite similar to the opening sentences in most other encyclopedias, e.g. the Britannica. Nico

CC, 22:53, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * There is no doubt that the Silesia is a historical region, but not only - it is also a geographical and ethnographical modern region.

 * The phrase what is now Poland and is very offensive and should be removed
 * Nonsense.Nico
 * It is offensive and it doesn't matter how many times you repeat the word nonsense it will remain offensive.

Answers: bondaries of Silesia

 * (2) The boundaries of Silesia: is Silesia part of Poland and Czechia only, or Germany too.

In my opinion there are three attitues in determining the boundaries of Silesia: I see no reason why the boundaries in Prussian time should be definitive, they are only auxilliary and should be used if it helps to define the boundaries.
 * the oldest historical boundaries
 * the longest living boundaries
 * the modern boundaries

In most cases all three attitudes bring the same results. There are only doubts about the far western and far eastern frontiers of Silesia. Summary of my opinion is that Czech Silesia, Oswiecim-Siewierz-Zator-Zywiec area, Klodzko area and Polish parts of historical Lusatia should be included in the boundaries of Silesia. At the same time the Gorlitz area of Germany should not be counted as part of Silesia as it was only temporary within the administrative boundariies in Prussian times. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answers: the Gorelitz/Zgorzelec area

 * (2a) Is the Goerlitz area part of Silesia or part of historical Lusatia and Saxony now

Accordig to all three methods the Goerlitz area is not part of Silesia. I see no reason why the boundaries in Prussian time should be definitive.

There are some doubts whether areas of historical Lusatia, that are parts of modern Lower Silesian Voivodship should be counted (my answer is yes). CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answers: the Siewierz/Oswiecim/Zator/Zywiec area

 * (2b) Are the historcial duchies of Siewierz, Oswiecim, Zator and Zywiec part of Silesia or not. This is imprortant because they were part of Poland since the 15th century till the partitions of Poland.

According to methods 1-2 areas of Siewierz, Zywiec, Oswiecim and Zator are also part of historical Silesia, although it is now a borderland between Polish Silesia and Little Poland. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answers: the Czech/Bohemian/Austrian Silesia

 * (2c) Is the Czech Silesia: Ostrava/Opava/Karniow/CeskyTesin area part of Silesia?

According to all three methods the Czech Silesia, is also part of the historical and modern Silesia. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answers: the Klodzko/Glatz area

 * (2d) Is the Klodzko area part of Silesia?

The county of Klodzko was historically part of the Czech Kingdom, and not part of the Silesian province in the Czech and Austrian times. It it was ruled by the Silesian dukes it was still considered part of Bohemia/Czechia. It was separated from Czechia in 1742 and joined to Silesia, where it remains till today. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The ties with various countries and nations

 * (3) Were the ties of Silesia with Poland, Czechia, Austria, Germany decreasing/increasing? What are these ties (political, eclessiastical, educational, religious, economic, ethnic, cultural)

 * I have spent several hours documenting that the ties with Poland were not decreasing (see the archives). There were times that the ties were increasing and decreasing - the history is a zig-zag, not a straigh line. CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC

 * Revisionism is irrelevant here.Nico

???

 * It is not true that Silesia was Polish in the middle ages and after 1945. Parts of Silesia were Polish all the time, parts of Silesia were Czech all the time. It is better to say that most of Lower Silesia belonged to Prussia-Germany in years 1742-1945, and the Upper Silesia was divided between Prussia, Czechia, Poland and Austria (and the frontiers were changing). CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC

 * Then say that. Nico

Answers: ethnic ties, etnic majority

 * (3a) What was the ethnic majority of Silesia in various times (ethnic ties)

 * It is not true that Silesia had a German majority, at least there is no reliable proof that there was such a majority. It is better to say that Silesia was half German, half Polish from ethnic point of view, of that the Lower Silesia had a German majority, and Upper Silesia had a Polish majority.

 * Nonsense. The 1905 census showed an German 3/4 majority. Nico

 * According to the German census of 1905 the population of German Silesia was 4,942,611, of whom 2,120,361 were Protestants, 2,765,394 Catholics and 46,845 Jews; Three-fourths of the inhabitants and territory are German, but to the east of the Oder the Poles, more than 1,000,000 in number, form the bulk of the population, while there are about 15,500 Czechs in the south part of the province and 25,000 Wends near Liegnitz

Most of the historians accept the religious numbers as the German government has no interest in falsifying them, at the same time these historians do question the ethnic numbers. (the etnic stats are indeed for the language not etnicity. The historians think that some of the Catholics were indeed the Poles counted as the Germans.

You have also to consider the Austrian Silesia: In 1900 the population numbered 680,422, which corresponds to 342 inhabitants per sq. m. The Germans formed 44.69% of the population, 33.21% were Poles and 22.05% Czechs and Slays. According to religion, 84~ 73 were Roman Catholics, 14% Protestants and the remainder were Jews.

You have also consider the Polish Silesia (with some 500.000 inhabitants - mostly Polish)

 * It is very offensive to say that there was a German majority before 1945 as this was the period of Nazi atrocities, masacres, mass murders and reseltllement, If we want to show the historical status its better to say before 1938, of before WWII. CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Nonsense. Nico

 * In my opinion it is very offensive to mention the German majority before 1945 and to ignore the the German occupation of Poland and Czechoslovakia and to ignore the results of the German activities in the Auchwitz concentration camp. CC, 23:16, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If Upper Silesia was mostly Polish, why did 60% of it vote to remain part of Germany in 1920?
(This section containts comments made today, so it should remain on the main page for a while)

Caius, if Upper Silesia was mostly Polish, why did 60% of it vote to remain part of Germany in 1920? In terms of your version, it is much less useful than the current version, in that it doesn't explain the history at all. john

Upper Silesia was mostly Polish according to the German statistics. Are you accusing the German government of falsifying the statistics to promote the Polish nation or of Polonizing the Silesia???

But to answer your question.
 * the question was do you want to be in Poland or Germany, and not of nationality.
 * the German propaganda line was that Poland is a temporary state that will be liquidated in just a few years, so its better to stay in s safer place
 * the German propaganda line was that Poland is unstable state, with no stable goverment, borders, army, economy etc so is better to stay in safer Germany
 * police and administration was in German hands, so they could influence th voters especially in the rural areas. The urban workers organized into trade unions voted mostly for Poland
 * upper classes were mosly German, so its was unsafe to vote against your boss. You could loose you job.
 * additionaly the Germans have organized some 200,000 Germans who were ever born in but left Silesia afterwards, Polish side was allowed only 10,000 such persons. If we count only true Silesians living in the area the result would be 49%-51%

 * Because 60% was from people both living in Upper Silesia and those who were allowed to vote (who were born in Silesia). From those who were only from Silesia, proportions were much more in favour of Polishness szopen

 * Ah, that makes sense. Of course, there were a lot of Polish immigrants into Upper Silesia, due to the increasingly industrialization. john 09:17, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Germany were so afraid of graduall Polonisation of the Eastern province, see Ostflucht, that Poles couldn't immigrate, and those who immigrate were expelled. AM

08:20, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC) I can explain it to you. Silesia was border province, and the alleged Germans of the province were not so German, and alleged Poles were not so Polish. Remainder had all but confused opinion about nationality. Silesia was also kind of Prussian colony, where all upper classes where German Prussians, while lower where Polish. To advance in your carreer, you must become German. Also many Silesians came to Ruhr area to work. Some of them Germanised there. Don't underestimate power of Prussian militarism. Prussia was not a liberal country. Children were beaten at school to adhere to Prussian education theory. Silesian national movement wanted to liberate Silesia in the alliance with Poland. First of all, they wanted Silesians to wake up and become free people. It suceeded only partly. During the referendum, many people that returned from Ruhr, voted for Germany, many that voted for Germany, where not German at all. Many people appear German before 1914, Polish 1920-1939, German 1939-1945, Polish in 1945, but eventually emigrated to Germany, where they insist on speaking Polish! Your simple equation, that 60% voting for Germany, means that they were German, maybe true in democratic society of USA, but not in the trapped by totalitarian powers Silesia of XX century. AM

 * I wouldn't call either Germany or Poland in 1920 "totalitarian". In any event, I wonder how much of the distinction had to do with religion.  That is to say, Poles were Catholic, but Silesia was largely protestant.  Mightn't protestant Polish-speakers have voted for staying with Germany? john 09:17, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * To confuse you more, since Protestants made more stress on national languages, Polish speaking protestants were the first to use Polish language in writing. Teschen Silesia Poles were protestants, but eager Poles. Upper Silesia and Klodzko/Glatz were Catholic, Lower Silesia protestant. AM

Answers: political ties

 * (3b) What were the prevailing political belonging of Silesia in various historical periods.

Answers: eclessiastical ties

 * (3c) What were the prevailing eclessiatical/educational/religious ties

Answers: economic ties

 * (3a) What were the prevailing economic ties of Silesia.

Answers: cultural ties

 * (3a) What were the prevailing cultural ties of Silesia?

Silesian name of Silesia

 * (4) Should the Silesian name (Ślunsk, Ślonsk) be also mentioned?

In my opinion it doesn't matter if the Silesian dialacts are considered to the the dialacts of Polish language or dialects of the Silesian language. The fact is that the Silesian name exists: ussualy spelled: Ślunsk, Ślonsk and they should be listed. CC, 20:51, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It is good that Polish, German and Czech names of the region are listed, but its bad that the Silesian name is not listed. Polish name of the region is Śląsk, and the Silesian name is Ślonsk, Ślunsk (in various dialects; spelling unsettled yet)
 * It's totally unacceptable to list the Polish dialect names Slonsk and Slunsk first, and in the first sentence. As I've already told you, these names are not used by any other encyclopedia and are totally unknown. How about: Silesia (Silesian Schlesien, Lower Silesian Schlesien, German Schlesien, Polish Slask Czech Slezko)?? Nico

 * According to the last census 2002 there are 170,000 Silesians in Poland and 70,000 of them declare Silesian as their first language. The Silesians are an officialy akckowledged national minority in the Czech Republic and an officialy akckowledged ehnic minority in the Poland. So you claim that the Silesians do not exist has no ground. CC, 22:53, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

New intro proposal
Why don't you use, as the most neutral way, a very very short introduction and a very long history part, in which all facts are described, such as 60%-votes, mostly a legal part of Poland today, ...? Things could be so easy. 82.82.129.22 08:26, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

How about:

 * Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and the northeastern Czech Republic. The historical region belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased in the later Middle Ages, and the province was a Habsburg domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II most of Silesia was annexed by Poland, and the German population was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic.  In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Does anyone have any problems with this? john 08:35, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This seems fine to me, although I think also the German part (the Görlitz area) of the region should be mentioned (and with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic), as the Britannica does. -- Nico 08:47, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased in the later Middle Ages, and the province was a Habsburg domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II most of Silesia was annexed by Poland, and the German population was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic.  In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Not that I don't love arguing about this stuff, but couldn't everyone try to take a look at the revised opening paragraph presented above, and present an opinion on it? john 09:17, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Okay, how long do we have to wait to see if people object to the suggested new version? I think all of the folks who've been involved in the debate have made some change to this page in the last 24 hours or so, which suggests they've seen it, and none has commented, other than Nico. So, is this good? Would this meet everyone's objections. One would note that it has the virtue of not mentioning the very disputed ethnic composition of Silesia in the pre-1945 period, and that it at no point calls Silesia a part of Germany (as opposed to Prussia), while at the same time not denying any German claims. It also managed to be more specific than the previous version in other ways, mentioning the war of the Austrian Succession (Silesia's most famous moment on the world scene, surely) and the expulsion of the Germans after 1945. So, any problems? The language, can, of course, be modified if people object to any of the statements made. But this page is getting to be ridiculous, with numerous people checking in to continue fruitless historical arguments, and nobody actually commenting on what we're supposed to be doing, which is writing an encyclopedia article. If nobody has any objections in the next day or so, can we get someone to unprotect the page and then implement these suggested changes? john 09:22, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have feeling that "ties with Poland decreased in Later middle ages" should be changed into "ties with Poland decreased over time". Ties with Poland were present even in XIX century. Also, don't youw ant to mention that Germans were majority in most of Silesia pre-1945? Also, not all German population was expelled in 1945/6- most of them.Som estay until 60s, some until today (although large part of today's 100.000 strong German minority is in fact descendants of those, who in 1945 were positively verified as Poles and only later found their Germannes anewszopen

Newest revision, incorporating Szopen's suggestions:

 * Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province was a Habsburg domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population (which had formed a majority prior to the war) was expelled. The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control, and today forms part of the Czech Republic.  In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

john 03:58, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Maybe we should remove "which had formed a majority prior to the war" and "The remainder of Silesia remained under Austrian control", and describe that in the history section instead? Nico 21:30, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province was a Habsburg domain from the 16th to the 18th century. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population was expelled.  In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as Ślonsk or Ślunsk.

Incorporating bohemian crown etc.

 Silesia (Polish S´la?sk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historical region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra River, in what is now southwestern Poland and with parts in Germany and the northeastern Czech Republic. Silesia belonged to Poland in the middle ages. Ties with Poland gradually decreased over time, and the province became a possession of the Bohemian crown, and thus part of the Holy Roman Empire, in 1335, and passed to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War II nearly all of Prussian Silesia was annexed by Poland, and most of the German population was expelled. In the Polish dialect spoken in Silesia, the region is also known as S´lonsk or S´lunsk. The Polish portion of Silesia, which forms the bulk of the historic region, is now divided into the voivodships of Lower Silesian Voivodship (capital: Wroclaw), Opole Voivodship (capital: Opole), and Silesian Voivodship (capital: Katowice). The latter two are sometimes called Upper Silesia. The small portion in the Czech Republic is joined with Moravia to form the Moravian-Silesian Region of that country, while the Görlitz area now is a part of the German state of Saxony. '''

Silesia is live nor dead region (my original comment)
I think we are going in the right direction (multi-cultural intro) very slowly but still not far enough. Here are a couple of my opinions.

 * It is good that Polish, German and Czech names of the region are listed, but its bad that the Silesian name is not listed. Polish name of the region is Śląsk, and the Silesian name is Ślonsk, Ślunsk (in various dialects; spelling unsettled yet)
 * I don't like the historical bias of the intro. This intro describes Silesia as a dead province of the past. Silesia is a live province of 10 million people. I suggest that the first paragraph should describe its current status, division and people. And the second paragraph shoul describe its rich history.
 * The phrase what is now Poland and is very offensive and should be removed
 * I have spent several hours documenting that the ties with Poland were not decreasing (see above and arhcives). There were times that the ties were increasing and decreasing - the history is a zig-zag, not a straigh line.
 * It is not true that Silesia was Polish in the middle ages and after 1945. Parts of Silesia were Polish all the time, parts of Silesia were Czech all the time. It is better to say that most of Lower Silesia belonged to Prussia-Germany in years 1742-1945, and the Upper Silesia was divided between Prussia, Czechia, Poland and Austria (and the frontiers were changing)
 * It is not true that Silesia had a German majority, at least there is no reliable proof that there was such a majority. It is better to say that Silesia was half German, half Polish from ethnic point of view, of that the Lower Silesia had a German majority, and Upper Silesia had a Polish majority.
 * It is very offensive to say that there was a German majority before 1945 as this was the period of Nazi atrocities, masacres, mass murders and reseltllement, If we want to show the historical status its better to say before 1938, of before WWII. CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

New intro/definition of Silesia (proposal)
My suggestion is the initial paragraph about the modern Silesia, next paragraphs about historical Silesia.

Silesia (Silesian: Ślonsk, Ślunsk, Polish: Śląsk, German: Schlesien, Czech: Slezsko) is a historical and geographical region with over 10 million population in southwestern Poland and the northeastern Czech Republic, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra river and along the Sudeten mountains. Upper Silesia is divided into 2 Polish provinces, Silesian Voivodship (capital Katowice) and Opole Voivodship (capital Opole), and one Czech province, the Silesian-Moravian Region (capital Ostrava). Lower Silesia is divided into 2 Polish provinces, Lower Silesian Voivodship (capital Wroclaw) and partly Lubusz Voivodship (capital Zielona Gora).

Because of its rich history the region has produced a unique cultural mix based on the local Silesian elements with strong Polish, Czech and German influences. Today the region is inhabited by Poles, Silesians, Germans, Czechs and Moravians. History of Silesia is connected with history of the three nations and countries: Poland, Bohemia, and Germany.

In the middle ages Silesia was an object of Polish-Czech rivalry but also with many ethnic Germans settling here. It was a province of the Bohemian Kingdom from 1348 to 1742, although a small portion became Polish in 1443. In 1742-1763 most of Silesia was seized by Prussia in the Silesian Wars, and organized into the Prussian provinces Upper and Lower Silesia until 1945. After World War I half of Upper Silesia, and after WWII most of Silesia was ceded to Poland. During WWII all of Silesia was part of Nazi Germany and the Germans murdered or expelled most Poles and Jews (see concentration camps, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Gross-Rosen); after WWII most of the Germans were expelled from Poland and Czechoslovakia (Expulsion of the Germans). CC, 20:36, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I would agree to that. --Wik 20:47, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks Wik, we have also to convince others, and wait a while for the comments and maybe some improvements CC, 20:53, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Is it OK to say History of Silesia is connected with history of the four nations and countries: Poland, Czechia(Bohemia), Germany and Austria. CC, 20:54, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

He continues
Well, it seems like he continues to flood the page, and insisting on his complete outrageous version. If he not will cooperate with other contributors, the only solution will be a vote. -- Nico 20:44, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Nico, please stop the personal attacks, and discuss the issues. You continue to accuse many users of editing without any comments and of flooding and spaming the talk pages. This is ridiculous. Anyway you comments and contributions are welcome. We want to cooperate with you. CC, 20:58, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

"Stop the personal attacks"? That is coming from the right person!

By the way, you are wrong. We wish to cooperate with you. But if you not will cooperate, the page will just stay protected. Nico 21:08, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

CC, your method of flooding the page with ridiculous amounts of text makes any kind of discussion very difficult. Your version of the page, focusing on the modern provinces in Silesia, seems confusing and unnecessary. And the reference to the Holocaust in the intro to the article is completely POV, and has no place in the introduction to an article about a particular region (especially since the vast majority of Silesia was already part of Germany before 1938). The historical explanation you provide is overly complicated, and fails to mention the Habsburg connection. (My version, to be fair, failed to mention the Bohemian connection, but I'd be amenable to reasonable attempts to add something about that). Some of the contentions you make are, as Nico says, nonsense. That it is somehow offensive and POV to say that Silesia is a region in what is now Poland and the Czech Republic? Furthermore, your argument that the article ought to focus on the "modern province" of Silesia is ridiculous. There is no such thing. There are three Polish provinces which mostly correspond to the now defunct Prussian Silesia, but there are parts of the old Silesia which are not part of those provinces. Silesia is also not a province in the Czech Republic, forming instead fhte Moravian-Silesian region, with parts of Moravia. It seems to me, then, that a mostly historical account makes a lot more sense for the introduction. In any event, I suggest a vote. john 22:17, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * FROM THE BRITANNICA:

 * Silesia (Polish Slask German Schlesien)

 * Historic region, east-central Europe.

 * It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic. It was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown, and thus part of the Holy Roman Empire, in 1335. Because of succession disputes and the region's prosperity, there were at least 16 Silesian principalities by the end of the 15th century. It passed to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526; it was taken by Prussia in 1742. After World War I it was divided between Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Germany. During World War II Polish Silesia was occupied by Germany and was the site of atrocities against the population by Nazi and, later, Soviet forces. In 1945 the Allied powers assigned virtually all of Silesia to Poland; today its nine Polish provinces contain almost one-fourth of Poland's population.

 * http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=403975

what is the publication date of this definition?? CC, 06:22, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

Debate on History of Silesia
Except the intro debate there's also some confusion about the history section. Current version the history is unacceptable as it is ''a history of German colonization of Silesia' I have tried to make some improvements have some small successes.

Just before the page was protected I tried to add these 4 passages, but they have been reverted by Nico five times. So I am asking you Nico for the second time: do you have anything against incorporating these sentences about historical facts into the history section of Silesia. CC, 20:35, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Name of Silesia
According to Thietmar the name of Silesia region comes from the Mount Slez (Polish: Ślęża, Sobótka, German: Silling, Sobbten).

State of Samo
In ca. 620 Silesia probably belonged to the State of Samo, the first Western Slavonic state, which was a federation of various Slavonic tribes in Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Pannonia, Lusatia and Silesia.

Bishopric of Wroclaw 1000
In 990 Silesia was incorporated into Poland by Mieszko I (although some historians are moving the date to 999 and rule of king Boleslaus I. This boundaries of Poland were accepted by the Pope and Roman Enperor Otto III, by establishing the Silesian bishopric in Wroclaw (1000).

Mass massacres of Poles and Jews
During World War II the Nazi Germany has annexed the Czech Silesia in 1938 (part of the so called Sudetenland) and Polish part of Upper Silesia in 1939. Mass massacres, expulsions and murders of the Poles and Jews followed.

Do you have something against? Caius2ga 20:35, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

- Note to other users: Caius2ga is fully aware of why his vandalism was reverted. See http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Silesia/archive5#Why_editor_Nico_doesn't_like_the_truth_???? -- Nico 11:22, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Nico, it is a fact that you have reverted these changes. I don't know WHY you have reverted them. So I am asking once more: why did you you revert these submissions? Do you have something against them? Please tell us. Is it so diffilcult Caius2ga 01:34, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

--

Silesia - a German colony in Poland
The Wikipedia article about India is the article about the Republic of India, and it doesn't mention that it was part of the British Empire before 1948 and that many Englishmen were expelled. In my opinion the article about Silesia should be about the region of Silesia, and it would be OK not to mention Germans at all, as the India article does not mention the British. Any mention of the Germans in the intro is a great concession to our German friends.Caius2ga 22:44, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. India was a colony. Silesia was a German province with majority of German population. If you think it is "OK" to write an article about an historically German province not mentioning Germans at all, then just go away. This is an encyclopedia. Nico 23:22, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Silesia was colony too - a German colony in Poland. There is no ground for your claim that there was a German majority in Silesia. It is almost sure that Silesia had a Slavonic majority: Silesians, Czechs, and Poles, although it is diffulcult to decide how many of them. I cannot agree that Silesia is a German province. Historically it was occupied by Prussia and later Germany for a relativelty short periods of time - in other words it was under temporary Prussian administration.

Silesia had a very difficult history, especailly in the last two centurries. We have to put aside the historical conflicts, and try to write about the common history of Silesia. Caius2ga 23:25, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What in the world are you talking about. The India article certainly mentions the British.

 * By subjugating the Mughal empire in the 19th century, the British Empire had assumed political control of virtually all Indian lands. Mostly nonviolent resistance to British colonialism under Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru led to independence in 1947. The subcontinent was divided into the secular state of India and the smaller Muslim state of Pakistan.

And, in any case, Indian history is covered by a separate article, History of India. Further, the old Silesia no longer exists, and it is essentially a historical region, so more historical discussion is in order for the main article than for India, which is a contemporary state. john 07:28, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think the point is that the British aren't mentioned in the introduction of the India article, only in the history section (and the separate history article). And what exactly is the "old Silesia"? Silesia is still a contemporary region. If your point is that it isn't a single administrative entity, well, for most of its history it wasn't either. So I think the introduction should begin with a description of the present region (population, geographical setting, current administrative divisions), as in Caius' proposal above. --Wik 12:31, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

 * And I think the point is that India is a contemporary state, while Silesia is an historical region. See other encyclopedias, e.g. the Britannica, they all starts with Historical region, it now lies mainly in Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic etc.. To compare Silesia, German since later middle ages, and which had a majority of German population, with India, which was nothing but a colony, is not only extremely offensive. It's ridiculous and idiotic. Nico 13:10, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Silesia, Saxony and India - modern and historical
In terms of Silesia as a present-day region, it is no more one than, say, Normandy, or Anjou, or Swabia. The region obviously still exists geographically, and is sometimes referred to as a region. And even some administrative divisions might be named that. But they primarily remain historical terms, for regions that don't quite exist anymore. The three Polish districts that lie entirely within the old Silesia, and which are called "Silesia", ought to be treated in articles about those specific regions (as, as I understand it, they are). They do not, however, constitute the whole of the very well-defined province/region of Silesia which existed for nearly a thousand years. Several other Polish provinces contains portions of the old Silesia, and there is no Czech province which wholly consists of the old Austrian Silesia. Silesia is essentially defunct. Further, India/Silesia comparisons are not fair, not only because the German presence in Silesia was over a far longer span of time, and far more extensive, than British presence in India, but also because the India article itself is essentially an introduction to India, since there are various specific articles like History of India that go into more detail. There are no such articles for Silesia. Furthermore, again, India is a present day country. Silesia is a historical region, still referred to, but no longer having any specific meaning on its own. The Polish voivodeships can be discussed in their own separate article, and even as it is, they are discussed in the second paragraph of the current article. I continue to be confused as to what is at issue here. john 23:37, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There are more similarities than you think. Historical India no longer exists and is now divided into India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Historcial Saxony no longer exists and is now didided into Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Lower Saxony - if you are referring to Silesia in Poland now, you are ussually refferring to the Silesian Voivodship - Caius2ga 01:31, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ah, your last comment is interesting. Since we already have an article on the Silesian Voivodship, which you yourself admit is the primary contemporary referent of Silesia, shouldn't the Silesia article then focus on the historical Silesia? john 04:12, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion Silesia has today two meanings: first is the Silesian Voivodship, second the geographical region consisting of several voivodships in Poland and a region in Czechia. I hope we can agree to write an acceptable article on this geographical region. But if Nico will not stop his nationalistic incursions and edit wars I will make an official proposal that the Silesia article is devoted solely to the modern Silesian Voivodship, and the Lower Silesia article is devoted solely to the modern Lower Silesian Voivodship, (in the same manner as Saxony and Lower Saxony) -- Caius2ga 06:17, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I would disagree, somewhat, with the first part, and very strongly with the second. It has two meanings: first is the Silesian Voivodship, and second is the historical region comprising what is now three Voivodships in Poland, part of the Silesia-Moravia district of the Czech Republic, parts of several other Polish voivodships, and perhaps the Görlitz district of Germany. In what sense has anybody been involved in edit wars on this page in recent days? It has been protected. Furthermore, Nico's arguments have not been particularly unreasonable or nationalistic, at least recently, and his position seems to be little different from that of Poles like Szopen, or of Americans like me. Your second proposal is completely unacceptable. Outside of Poland, the general region of Silesia is much better known than the current Voivodship. The article ought to detail the history of this region, and this ought to be dealt with in the introduction. Further, the article on Saxony certainly includes the history of the region before the existence of the current state, including some discussion of the completely different area called Saxony in the middle ages (the present day Lower Saxony). john 07:48, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Just a side note: i will abstain from the article sicne i decided that i have better things to do that invloving in revert wars. I will be back and i will lurk here, but that's all.

In Poland we still commonly refer to area as "Slask", although at most cases when people mention it they are meaning Upper Silesia. Silesia is not "Dead" region. In all maps showing general divisions of Poland, the regions are Silesia, Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, Masovia, Pommerania, Masuria. Those general meaning of Silesia is more or less "compatible" with borders of historical Silesia

Mere lack of one province covering whole Sielsia can't be argument, since in medieval times Silesia was divided into separate STATES and you won't be claiming that it means Silesia is dead region. szopen

Indeed, it's not a dead region. It's a region which has no specific political significance at the moment. Like Anjou or Baden, rather than, say, Tuscany or Saxony. My point is that Silesia can't be confined to the three voivodships +Czech areas that caius2ga wants to do, because historic Silesia was bigger than that, and because it would be pointless to do so, since we can (and do) easily have articles on those three voivodships. Given that the historic Polish region of Silesia roughly corresponds with the historic Bohemian/Prussian province(s) of Silesia, the article should deal with the history of this conglomerate, which essentially ended as an independent unit in 1945. In any event, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about here. Are we arguing about whether to include any historical discussion of Silesia in the introduction at all? I continue to fail to understand what is wrong with the introductory paragraph I submitted as a possible revision of the current one. I would propose a vote, but I have no idea what we'd even be voting on. john 08:48, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Better comparison would be maybe with Wales or whatever. History of the region had not ended in 1945, period. If you will discussing only history of "independent unit" then sho me periods of history when Silesia was one separate independent entity. If in the past Silesia was divided into few entities, and nevertheless you consider it "region" then i can't understand why you are saying that today Silesia is not separate entiry, although I became a bit confused by your last sentence - are you arguing that history of Silesia ended in 1945 or not?

About introduction i've said already that it's fine if you will remove "in later middle ages" part of sentence of decreasing ties of Poland, since a) it is acceptable to me b) it is acceptable to others - mainly because it is so blurred sentence. Ties with Poland WERE PRESENT even in XIX century, heck even in XX century and were decreasing over time. szopen

Re: introduction, I think I already made the change you suggested some time ago. Re: the other, increasingly useless discussion, I'm not arguing that the history of the region ended in 1945. That doesn't make any sense. I'm just saying that Silesia is no longer a distinct area in the way that it was until 1945, and that the article on Silesia should focus on the pre-1945 period, while the more recent stuff can go in the articles about the three Polish voivodships and the Czech district to which much of Silesia belongs today. Just as the article on Anjou should discuss the historical French province, while more recent material would go in the article on the département of Maine-et-Loire, despite the two being essentially the same region. john 19:07, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

John, I must say i am ignorant in that: was really Silesia separate GAU in Germany pre-1945? Was it one single separate province pre-1918? If not, then I am not sure what are you arguing about. If Silesia was divided previously in few provinces, and now is divided in few provinces, then what's the difference? szopen

Silesia was a Prussian Province until 1945. Of course, there was also Austrian Silesia, which became part of Czechoslovakia after 1918. But, yeah, Silesia was a single Prussian province prior to 1945, along with such places as Brandenburg, Pomerania, East Prussia, and so forth. john 05:50, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Actually it was two provinces, Upper and Lower Silesia, since 1919. And even before, the Prussian province, as you say, was not all of Silesia, so it is not very different from now, when there is also a "Silesian voivodship" by name, although that is not all of Silesia. Feel free to create a separate article specifically about the historical Prussian province, but this article is supposed to be about the region of Silesia, and this did not cease to exist in 1945. You mentioned Normandy before - why don't you go to that article and see how it starts exactly in the same way as Caius's proposal for this article (i.e. describing its current conditions before its history)? --Wik 06:03, Dec 5, 2003 (UTC)

Other encyclopedias
This is the introduction of the Silesia article at http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/s/silesia.asp

Silesia, Czech Slezsko, Ger. Schlesien, Pol. S´la?sk, region of E central Europe, extending along both banks of the Oder River and bounded in the south by the mountain ranges of the Sudetes—particularly the Krkonos e (Ger. Riesengebirge )—and the W Carpathians. Politically, almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic. The Polish portion comprises most of the former Prussian provinces of Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia, both of which were transferred to Polish administration at the Potsdam Conference of 1945; the Polish portion also includes those parts of Upper Silesia that were ceded by Germany to Poland after World War I and part of the former Austrian principality of Teschen. A second, much smaller part of Silesia belonged to Czechoslovakia since 1918, and became part of the Czech Republic with the dissolution of Czechoslovakia in 1993.

And here is another article (Catholic Encyclopedia): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13790b.htm

And the Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=403975

Historic region, east-central Europe. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic. [...] -- Nico

Why don't you use, as the most neutral way, a very very short introduction and a very long history part, in which all facts are described, such as 60%-votes, mostly a legal part of Poland today, ...? Things could be so easy. 82.82.129.22 08:26, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Silesia/Archive 6