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Talk:Star Wars sources and analogues

issue with references for modern history section
"The final medal awarding scene in A New Hope, however, references Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.[18]" Source 18: "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones". TIME Magazine. 2002-04-21. Source does not mention anything about the medal award ceremony, Riefenstahl, or Triumph of the Will... any ideas? Should this line be removed or does someone know the actual source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmeyerson (talk • contribs) 00:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Untitled

 * the Jedi Purge

the purge in episode 3, is not so much comparable to the jewish holocaust, but more [in that context] to the night of the long knifes, and most purges whenever a government changes violently - the elimination of political enemies

 * done a search on google and can't find any other references to this theory. Even if it was, then almost all literature takes themes from religion and ancient mythology so it is hardly a revelation that George Lucas has done the same - one might as well say that Shakespeare is guily of plagiarism! Do you have any outside source for this being a well-accepted theory? MrWeeble 23:01, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I must say that you will be able to find a source on the internet, you did not look deep enough... And never compare a badly-put-together series like Star Wars to Shakespeare, it is not worth your time. être 04:58, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * can you provide links? Wasn't comparing Shakespeare with George Lucas - merely using it to emphasise my argument. Trust me I'm no fan of Star Wars and think its artistic merit to be very low - however I'm not convinced that this theory is very valid as most works are in some way based on others. Isn't there a theory in literature that there are only 7 basic stories and all other works are derivatives of these? MrWeeble 16:06, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Ouch. Just to comment...Imperial City/Corusant existed before Isaac Asimov's death.

 * The Trantor/Corusant parallel is something i hadn't considered before - but definately seems apparent now it is pointed out. Given there is now something on this page that I don't think is "a bit dodgy", I withdraw my former objections MrWeeble 22:49, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is a bogus article; it is not "plagiarism" for an artistic work to draw on common cultural heritage. Joseph Campbell points out that Star Wars follows in a long line of hero myths going back to before recorded history, which this article lamely fails to mention. It could be salvaged by being turned into a study of parallels with other stories. Stan 00:17, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the emerging consensus; this article is bogus. There is no commonly accepted theory, even among a minority of literary critics or film critics, that George Lucas plagarized the story of Star Wars from other sources. George Lucas certainly consciously drew on the mythology of several cultures, and he has publicly discussed this many times; however this is not plagarism by any definition of the word. This article, as written, may be perceived as libel. RK 01:26, Jan 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, he ripped significant elements of the plot from his mentor's film The Hidden Fortress; the original draft script of Star Wars was basically a science-fiction remake of the earlier movie. However, since Lucas acknowledged The Hidden Fortress as the inspiration for his film, I don't think it counts as plagiarism. --MIRV (talk) 01:38, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Inspiration isn't plagiarism by a long shot. Not to mention that the basic themes of the Hidden Fortress are themselves pretty old... RK

I took the liberty of renaming the article "Star Wars sources and the plagiarism theory," which I think comes a little closer to the issues at hand. I haven't the time or the expertise to rewrite it, though I'm hoping someone here has. It could be turned into a good essay on the sources, moving away from the plagiarism theory a bit --- though that still deserves mention, since it is a "real theory," however farfetched.

Using sources isn't plagiarism. Unless there is good evidence of actual plaguarism then this article should be deleted. DJ Clayworth 21:40, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A while ago I altered the introduction to the article, turning it into something more like a list of sources, and reduced the "plagiarism theory" to a brief note at the very end. Again I say, this could be turned into a very good piece chiefly about the sources, but I do not have the knowledge to make it that.

Also, should we let the current title stand a while, or change it again?

If this article is kept, I think the title should be changed to something like "Sources of Star Wars" and rewritten to remove references to plagiarism. Plagiarism implies theft in the case of copyright works. Such accusations aren't appropriate in an encyclopedia.

Nice to see an article that points out how the anti-Enlightenment folks in the US (neoconservatives) act quite like the dark siders / Sith.

Why not change the title to "Star Wars Sources and Analogues" This is a conventional academic resolution to the issue, and it avoids overt assertions of unproven plagiarism. Sources are I think obvious; they are works that directly inspired or influenced Star Wars. Analogues are works that while they may not have been directly consulted, share the essential plots elements of Star Wars. I'd just change the title, but I haven't a clue how. DigitalMedievalist 06:51, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC) Lisa

 * I'll do it -- and thank you for the suggestion! - Sara 15:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm currently reading "The Chessmen of Mars"...the fifth book in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. I came up with familiar-sounding words like "padwar", "jed" (or "jedak") and "banth". A "padwar" is some sort of low-ranking warrior and a "jed" is a general...I think. A "banth" is a lion-like creature. I thought these are kind of interesting. You can check out "The Chessmen of Mars" at Project Gutenberg www.gutenberg.org. Also, there's a scene in Chapter 7 of "Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe" that looks like the scene in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope where Luke encounters the Tusken Raiders. You can download Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe from www.archive.org. Doberdog 14:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

 * True enough. Keep an eye out for the term "sith"! --maru  (talk)  contribs 02:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

There was an Egyptian god Set, or Seth, which might be relevant. I always thought the term Jedi came from the sengoku-jidai, the Japanese civil wars of the sixteenth century. SkyDot 01:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

 * A sith is a Scottish Gaelic fairy... not the winged creature of Disney but humanoid creature that lies between the hidden and the human world. It's pronounce 'she' as in Banshee which is a type of sith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.221.104.11 (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Der Vater
My Haushofer references were removed (commented out). I don't think that was any more "original research" than most of the other similarities posted here. Albrecht Haushofer's poem called "Der Vater" talks about an evil that shows itself once in a thousand years, and the author's father having the opportunity to cast it back "into the sea," but letting it out instead. Albrecht's "Vater" was Karl Haushofer, and Luke's was Darth Vader. See Der Vater in the original German. SkyDot 01:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, consider that I deleted nearly that entire section due to rather blatant WP:OR. I commented out the sections of the page that were "on the fence". They could be OR, or they could merely be lacking the necessary citations/references. So rather than just delete, I chose to comment them out, so that whomever (you in this case, apparently) added the information could add the necessary references. I think that if you have a citation of someone explaining/commenting on the analogy between the poem and some element of Star Wars, then I'd be happy to see the section uncommented. : ) - jc37 02:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you're holding my reference to "Der Vater" to a higher standard than other references in the article.  None of the others actually cite sources that explain or comment on the analogies. They basically name a work and imply that the similarities are too great to be just a coincidence.  The original Star Wars trilogy was about the son of a man who helped create an evil empire when he could have stopped it.  That's what the poem was about.  There were a few other details in common.  Why is asking the reader to read the poem and decide for herself any different than asking the reader to read Doctor Zhivago and decide those analogies for herself? SkyDot 07:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I note that you didn't mention "dune", which is already commented out : )
 * I added Zhivago to the commented out section, since your thoughts on it, at least, are well taken.
 * The other examples do exist (I've personally seem Lucas comment on them on television, and on "special sections" of VHS/DVDs) If you want to help find citations for those, it would obviously be appreciated.
 * "Why is asking the reader to read the poem and decide for herself any different than asking the reader to read Doctor Zhivago and decide those analogies for herself?" The answer is: WP:V
 * Hope that helps : ) - jc37 17:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The WP:V article does not give me a distinction between Zhivago and Der Vater that suggests why one would be acceptable and the other not. It does suggest, however, that when you comment out sections as you've been doing, it would be polite to put a note in this talk section explaining why. Is the phrase "many speculate that..." considered an acceptable citation? How about "is believe to have originated from...?" Even in those paragraphs that start with a claim that Lucas himself acknowledged a connection to a work, the examples given are not claimed to be Lucas' own examples. The examples are assumed to be obvious. I claim my own examples from Der Vater are just as obvious. SkyDot 22:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The commenting out/removals were noted in the edit summaries, please note the page history. I also left a comment at the top of the commented out section explaining what the issue was/is. I agree that this page could use some citations, all around.  But blatant WP:OR is to be removed, irregardless. I just chose to comment out the "less blatant" examples, rather than simply deleting them. (You don't see that as "polite"?) As for the rest, check out: Avoid weasel words. - jc37 23:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The weasel words I quoted are from the article itself, and my reason for doing so is exactly that given in the article on avoiding weasel words. Remember my main point here is that I feel that you've held my contribution to a higher standard than the rest of the article. If you held all of it to the same standard, nearly the entire article would go away. I'm not claiming Der Vater is a source, but an analogue, something with a shared motif. Such a thing is usually obvious on its face, and the other analogues in the article are treated as such. SkyDot 04:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

 * One thing I have not seen a response to, and in hindsight, perhaps I never actually asked: Do you have any references/citations for this perspective? I totally understand that you feel that they should be unnecessary, and to you, requiring them, unfair. But that aside for a moment, for a moment, do you? - jc37 19:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

My reference was originally the work itself, which I gave a pointer to. It's pretty short. If you need an English translation, I'm sure I can find one. I did a quick google search for "Haushofer Star Wars," looking for a reasonable citation, and found an article about Shambhala that gives much more detail than I got from the poem. In other words, not just the poem, but the entire Eastern mysticism of Karl Haushofer and Hitler could be an analogue for the Force. The article briefly suggests the connection. Another also briefly mentions the Jedi Force in connection to this mysticism. Here is another. Since this discussion started, I've been reading other Wikipedia articles with the same eye towards citations and no-original-research that you've applied to my bit on Haushofer. I have to admit, I think the rules seem to be honored in the breach quite a bit. For what it's worth, I've learned quite a bit from our discussion, though. SkyDot 06:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I very much understand. It's surprising how much we learn as we attempt to learn about the guidelines/policies here. And I won't argue that they are more often applied only when someone is "watching". I think that the references you found are great, but they only tie the mysticism to nazi-ism. (Though I still think that they can and should be worked into the article.)  We still don't have a link from the poem to star wars. Before we go further, let's take a look at what we're talking about (copied unchanged from the commented out section):

 * The poem Der Vater, by Albrecht Haushofer during WWII reads like it could have been written by Luke Skywalker. There are other similarities between Karl Haushofer (Albrecht's father, an early supporter of Hitler) and Anakin Skywalker.
 * The poem refers to an evil that shows itself once in a thousand years. The Sith had not been seen for that long in the movie story.
 * The poem tells the story of how Albrecht's father had the power to stop the evil, but chose to unleash it. Luke's father Anakin had that same power and made that same choice.

The phrases that need proof:
 * "The poem...reads like it could have been written by Luke Skywalker."
 * "There are other similarities between [someone] and [a character from Star Wars]"
 * (1000 years is a common indeterminate length of time in literature. The 1001 arabian nights is a great example.)
 * "The poem tell the story of how [a character made a choice]. [A Star Wars character]...made that same choice.

Without citations/references, this is just speculation. It could have been written by, there are similarities between, a character made that same choice. Do you see how I could come up with examples from a TV series or film or some other poem, or some other work of literature which meet the same criteria? - jc37 07:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The articles each have basically a one-liner mentioning the Force from Star Wars as possibly being inspired by the mysticism being discussed. And no, I'm not claiming they're great citatinons by any standard.  If we change everything I wrote to talk about Karl Haushofer's mysticism instead of the poem, and if we cite those two articles, would that work?  What if we then toss in, "See also the poem Der Vater, by Karl's son Albrecht," with appropriate links?  I don't mind radical changes to what I wrote, even if nothing is recognizable.  I'd like to see something about this subject "worked into the article."  You can even write it, if you have the time and inclination. :) SkyDot 00:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds interesting... Though, this is your concept, and I would prefer that you produce the first draft : ) - If you post the draft here, I owuld be glad to help, however. - jc37 22:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It will be the middle of next week before I have time to work on this. SkyDot 04:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Similarity between basic story of Star Wars and Roman Empire?
Has anyone else noticed a similarity between Star Wars and the rise of the Roman Empire? Both start out as respected Republics, but then the greed and corruption of senators leads to the current leader transforming the republic into an empire and calling himself emperor. I believe there's more, but it's been some time since I studied Roman history. However, shouldn't this be included in historical similarities? Anakinjmt 18:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Further, I'd suggest that the American Revolution is alluded to - scrappy but outnumbered rebels fighting an empire. Several of the Imperial characters speak in British accents, but none of the Rebels do, IIRC. That said, I don't want to do original research; if anyone has sources that talk about the historical parallels, please add it. 141.156.13.69 02:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

not so much like Rome, as you describe it, since it's not so accurate - rome had civil wars the senate was corrupt and to put and end to it octavious reorganized it, and it was not yet an empire but became so over time and the corruption of thers, not octavious - so compary sidious to octavious would be like comparing hitler to kennedy. and i agree on some points over the comparison with the US revolution, but if you want to compare it with something along both lines, look into the US civil war, you got a federation, here called a republic, part of it decides to split from it, and to put an end to it the government decides to create a great army, war emerges from both, and a powerful man posing as honest and benevolet increases his power to suffocate the unrest and bring all under one rule, which finally emerges as a new empire. hey, if you look into it, it's almost the same thing, though not what most would say of it, think what you will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgcooper (talk • contribs) 04:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

What about Frank Herbert's Dune? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.89.110.91 (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

What you wrote above is correct. I have read a lot about Star Wars borrowing from ancient history. I will create a new section for that and expand on it.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 01:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

 * If the point of commonality is the mixture of advanced futuristic technology with Ancient Rome/Greece type civilisations, alluding to The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, we may point at The Rise and Fall of the Trigan Empire, a British comic series. I do not know if GL ever saw this. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:15DA:47A6:3B52:9C47 (talk) 08:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Old black and white Flash Gordon
The death star scenes in A New Hope parallel very strongly an old episode of Flash Gordon. Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode.

No no no!
"I agree. Further, I'd suggest that the American Revolution is alluded to - scrappy but outnumbered rebels fighting an empire. Several of the Imperial characters speak in British accents, but none of the Rebels do, IIRC.  That said, I don't want to do original research; if anyone has sources that talk about the historical parallels, please add it." -141.156.13.69 02:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC) NONE of the imperial officials speak in a English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh accent... They speak in the form of early wealthy Americans in their formality and had an accent indicitive of General American, so as to realistically make it universally understood and appealed to by all people in the English world(for example see English language and check its ranking world-wide). As the Early General American, did have VERY high similiarities with the English accents, but it was alot more pure, and spoken with the actual pronunciation, it does however retain the certain pure pronunciated speech, as emphasized by Webster before he created the American Dictionary, or as some would suggest, when he created the American English language.209.244.42.97 16:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

"NONE of the imperial officials speak in a [sic] English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh accent"?!? How about Emperor Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid, Scottish), Grand Moff Tarkin (Peter Cushing, English), Bast (Leslie Schofield, English), Lennox (John Dicks, English), Lorth Needa (Michael Culver, English), General Tagge (Don Henderson, English)? Even an American actor like Richard LeParmentier, who played General Motti, spoke with an English accent, reflecting the fact that he was living in England at the time and has in fact lived there for decades. James Earl Jones' accent as Darth Vader was what people used to call "Mid-Atlantic English," namely a sort of American stage accent with RP/BBC/Oxbridge overtones. The previous poster is correct to note that the accents of the Americans and British at the time of the Revolutionary War were probably far more similar to one another than they are now, probably sounding somewhat like modern Ulster accents. It is also true that Webster did a lot to promote a self-conscious differentiation between American and British speech. It is, however, linguistically meaningless to say that Early General American "was a lot more pure, and spoken with the actual pronunciation, ... retain[ing] the certain pure pronunciated speech, as emphasized by Webster."71.235.234.248 12:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Plucky rebels against an overbearing Empire whose officers speak that clipped British variety that connotes privilege and arrogance. I think the allusion / cultural resonance here is entirely intuitive, in line with GL's principle that audiences should understand what is what even without exposition (of which SW still has rather too much). At the same time, the Evil "British" Empire resonates with a war movie trope, in which the there is a droll contrast between the pomposity and over-confidence of the British officers and their extreme incompetence. Who would navigate a Star Destroyer into another Star Destroyer? The English Navy, that's who! 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:15DA:47A6:3B52:9C47 (talk) 09:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Imperial Officers Uniforms
Who took down my edit suggesting that the imperial officers' uniforms were inspired by those of the Japanese Imperial Army during World War II? At least I had the kindness not to delete the existing comparison with the Waffen SS, which is frankly much more tenuous. That was pretty rude to delete this altogether. A quick perusal of, for example, the photo of the Japanese generals at the surrender ceremonies on the USS Missouri, available on Wikipedia's Japanese Imperial Army uniforms webpage will show that this is every bit as legitimate as most of the other comparisons on this (Star Wars) page. Everybody knows that Lucas relied quite a bit on Asian models in his costuming (check out Padme's outfits, for example). 71.235.234.248 15:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

PS: If sourcing is an issue, that is a little laughable since nothing else in this section beyond "George Lucas has said." I'll get your sources. 71.235.234.248 15:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Star Trek as a source?
Should Star Trek be added in as a source for Star Wars? Because it's been credited that George Lucas is a Trekkie and has cited Star Trek as a source of inspiration as using sci-fi as a backdrop for his Star Wars story. Bart-16 (talk) 16:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Bart-16, I've already put it there. If you want to expand on it, you are welcomed to do so.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 01:56, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

vietnam war
growing up the number one thing I heard about star wars was that it was an allegory for vietnam. obviously I don't have any sources for that, but if anyone else does it would be a good addition I think. I also read the earlier thread about the revolutionary war and that might have some merit too... but its wierd when this article doesn't have much of a historical section besides the names at the bottom... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.101.210 (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll find sources for that and add it.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I can name a few sources where it's made blatant that the Vietnam War played a massive role in the development of the original trilogy. In particular, J.W. Rinzler's The Making of Star Wars books makes this clear (ESPECIALLY the first book, dealing with A New Hope, and I've even got some scans from that book that shows where Lucas claimed that the Empire was in fact based on America: https://otnesse.tumblr.com/post/162081709399/this-is-from-george-lucas-1973-notes-for-star). There's also How Star Wars Conquered the Universe by Chris Taylor (I'm assuming all versions). And also Star Wars and History, that makes it extremely clear that the Americans were the Vietcong. And let's not forget some articles made around the time Revenge of the Sith was released. In fact, I'd definitely argue that the Empire had more direct inspirations from America than the Nazis did. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 15:48, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Lensman
No mention of Lensman? I think there are quite a few similarities concerning the Jedi and Lensman.
 * I agree -- Lensman is clearly a major influence on Star Wars but seems to have been ignored by many (possibly due to its growing obscurity). I've edited the article to include this. Mrstonky (talk) 09:01, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Possibly future refs to use in the article

--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 23:38, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

 * These actually cite many of the uncited sources in the article, in the time you spent removing them from external links for tidyness you probably could have implemented them.— TAnthonyTalk 23:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

LOL TAnthony, sure because I wanted to sensor them :P. I just simply think citations shouldn't go in external link sections. To be honest it looks like a mess over there. I've saved them here for future use.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Image usage
TAnthony, do you think there is any way we can get these images into the article? I am looking to put it in the ancient history subsection of the article. You probably can guess why.

Do you know of the correct licensing to upload these on? Regards.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 06:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

 * First of all, the person who posted the artwork on the site admits that he/she is not the artist (it is from a video game or elsewhere), so they are not the copyright owner and do not have the right to grant any rights of usage. Period. This artwork cannot be used here for any reason with what we currently know.
 * If you found the actual source, you might be able to use the image to illustrate the game it came from etc. under a non-free/fair use license, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 * Even if you found the copyright holder and got the correct permissions, it does not represent a work that inspired Star Wars, it is just a modern example of sci-fi juxtaposed with ancient architecture that is more likely influenced by Star Wars. This does not properly illustrate any points in the article.— TAnthonyTalk 06:58, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I should also add, even if you found a photo at WP:COMMONS (free to use on Wikipedia) of a real ancient temple that looks (to you) like the Millennium Falcon, you really need to cite a reliable source that thinks the temple might have inspired George Lucas. The image would be fine on licensing grounds, but its inclusion without a citation like this would be considered editor opinion.— TAnthonyTalk 07:05, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi TAnthony and thanks for the responses. You are correct that it did not inspire Star Wars and probably not vice versa. I was hoping to put it there to show that the concept is the same, that Star Wars borrows the concept of mixing ancient history with science fiction, similar to other sci-fi stories.--Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 23:14, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Introduction
The beginning of the movie has been taken from the French movie "Les Disparus de Saint Agil"

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbon6n_lucas-a-pompe-les-disparus-de-saint_shortfilms — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.226.204.209 (talk) 08:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, this does look similar, but in-camera title card and scroll effects were in wide use back in the day. (One had to get creative in the pre-digital age.) It is certainly true that GL wished to evoke a feel of the days of early film making, but it is difficult to establish that exactly this film was the source.

 * A much more likely source is the similar scroll opening in the old black and white Flash Gordon series, which is widely established as a main point of departure for the development of SW. Google Flash Gordon opening scroll and you will see for yourself.

 * As for the cinematic structure of the first act of the movie in particular, it is well known and acknowledged by GL that The Hidden Fortress was the main model and influence. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:15DA:47A6:3B52:9C47 (talk) 08:50, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

War and Peace
It seems to me that the plot and many analogies come from "War and Peace." The Death Star being the invincible war machine, prince/princess captured, etc.. GESICC (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, but as regards these particular elements GL has specifically mentioned "The Hidden Fortress" as the direct source; you can easily find clips of him talking about this at length. The robots are based on that film's two bedraggled peasants on the run, from whose perspective we watch the battle unfold (incidentally, watch the Death Star conference scene closely and you will hear a mention of the rebels' hidden fortress!). As fas as I know, Kurosawa devised the story for THF himself, taking inspiration from Japanese history and mythology. The themes you mention are a tad generic, so it is hard to pinpoint Kurosawa's precise inspiration if any. I do not know whether he read W&P but if he did, it would certainly have exerted some influence. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:15DA:47A6:3B52:9C47 (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Poul Anderson's The Psychotechnic League
Poul Anderson's short story Cold Victory (part of his The Psychotechnic League series and originally published in the May 1957 issue of Venture Science Fiction), begins with the destruction of the so-called "Monitor", a sphere-shaped battleship or spacestation "whose sole purpose is death", by being bombed by rebels, which very much reminds me of the Death Star and its fate in Star Wars. Interestingly, Anderson also wrote a novel in his Psychotechnic League series called Star Ways (originally published in 1956 and later re-published in the 70s as The Peregrine) rather than Star Wars. --79.242.203.134 (talk) 07:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If you can provide a reliable source for this, it would be welcomed in the article.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 05:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Alfred the Great
I watched the end of Alfred the Great (film) and was surprised that the hooded cape worn by Alfred resembled so much Obi Wan's. Then I heard a line "I am your father" and wondered if some reference could be found for an inspiration of Lucas's from Alfred. It could be just a coincidence of what was in vogue for warrior monks in the late sixties. --Error (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Use of Dutch, suggested by Dune?
The creator of Star Wars has always been open about his indebtedness to popular sci fi. Indeed, he relates how, stuck on page 1 and in the throes of writer's block, he just bought a pile of popular sci fi novels to see what works and why. It is no secret that Dune was hugely influential. However, a penchant for diving specifically into the Dutch language for strange-and-yet-familiar words is not often mentioned. Vader means father in Dutch. Piett is similar to Piet, the Dutch spelling of Pete. In Dutch, mof is a pejorative term for a German. The Y-wing squadron leader in A New Hope has call sign "Dutch" and his surname is Vander; lots of Dutch surnames are prefixed with "van der" (or "van den", "van de", "van") although the actual surname is the bit that follows it.2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:15DA:47A6:3B52:9C47 (talk) 08:30, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Yoda's looks, reference to "The Hunting of the Snark"?
I am not sure. Could also be pareidolia. And it's my original research. https://snrk.de/the-bakers-uncle-yodas-relative-is --DL5MDA (talk) 12:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Links
The Influence of Carlos Castaneda on Star Wars (Documentary) - tVE4PYWkbq

George Lucas and Don Juan - 24.247.208.154 (talk) 01:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Star Wars sources and analogues


text:
Fitzrovia

Fitzrovia is a district of central London, England, near the West End. The eastern part of the area is in the London Borough of Camden, and the western in the City of Westminster. It has its roots in the Manor of Tottenham Court, and was urbanised in the 18th century. Its name was coined in the late 1930s by Tom Driberg.

It is characterised by its mixed-use of residential, business, retail, education and healthcare, with no single activity dominating. The once bohemian area was home to writers such as Virginia Woolf, George Bernard Shaw and Arthur Rimbaud. In 2016, The Sunday Times named it the best place to live in London.

Geography
For a list of street name etymologies in Fitzrovia see: Street names of Fitzrovia.

Fitzrovia has never been an administrative unit, so has never had formal boundaries applied, but the somewhat grid-like pattern of local streets has lent itself to informal quadrangular definitions, with Euston Road to the north, Oxford Street to the south and Great Portland Street to the west. Some interpretations take Tottenham Court Road as the eastern boundary, but others prefer a wider interpretation, extending to the more easterly Gower Street. By these definitions, the area overlaps the long established and once formally defined districts of Marylebone in the City of Westminster (Western Fitzrovia overlaps almost completely with the officially designated East Marylebone Conservation Area within the modern borough of Westminster ), with the core area forming the south-west part of St Pancras in the London Borough of Camden. If the eastern boundary is taken to extend beyond Tottenham Court Road (i.e., to Gower Street) and to also extend south of Torrington Place, then the area also overlaps the historic boundaries of Bloomsbury (including St Giles with which it was long joined as a combined parish).

In 2014 Camden Council and Westminster City Council designated east and west areas as planning policy areas. Together these relate fairly closely to the wider interpretations, described above.

Etymology
Fitzrovia is named after either Fitzroy Square or the Fitzroy Tavern, a public house situated on the corner of Charlotte Street and Windmill Street (both the square and the tavern are in the east of the area). Until the end of the 19th century the area was an estate of the Dukes of Grafton, descended from Henry FitzRoy, 1st Duke of Grafton, a son of Charles II and Barbara Villiers who bore the royal bastard surname FitzRoy, Norman-French for "son of the king". )

The name Fitzrovia came into use in the late 1930s among an artistic, bohemian circle that were among the pub's customers. The name was recorded in print for the first time by Tom Driberg MP in the William Hickey gossip column of the Daily Express in 1940. The writer and dandy Julian MacLaren-Ross recalled in his Memoirs of the Forties that Meary James Thurairajah Tambimuttu aka "Tambi", editor of Poetry London, had used the name Fitzrovia. Tambi had apparently claimed to have coined the name Fitzrovia, perhaps as a take on Belgravia. By the time Julian Maclaren-Ross met Tambimuttu and Dylan Thomas in the early 1940s this literary group had moved away from the Fitzroy Tavern, which had become a victim of its own success, and were hanging out in the lesser-known Wheatsheaf and others in Rathbone Place and Gresse Street. Maclaren-Ross recalls Tambimuttu saying: "Now we go to the Black Horse, the Burglar's Rest, the Marquess of Granby, The Wheatsheaf... in Fitzrovia." Maclaren-Ross replied: "I know the Fitzroy" to which Tambimuttu said: "Ah, that was in the Thirties, now they go to other places. Wait and see." Tambimuttu then took him on a pub crawl. The name was largely forgotten as the avant-garde set moved out in the late-1940's, but was revived in the 1970s, with the prevalence of use having waxed and waned since that time.

History
The core area of Fitzrovia has its roots in the ancient manor (estate) of Tottenham Court – first recorded as Þottanheale, from a charter from around AD 1000 (though the initial 'Þ', pronounced 'th', may have been a mistake by the scribe, all subsequent records using an initial 'T'). The manor was subsequently described as Totehele in the Domesday Book of 1086, Totenhale in 1184 and Totenhale Court by 1487. Tottenham Court formed the south-western part of the parish and later borough of St Pancras.

The Fitzroy Tavern was named after Charles FitzRoy (later Baron Southampton), who purchased the Manor of Tottenham Court and built Fitzroy Square, to which he gave his name; nearby Fitzroy Street also bears his name. The square is the most distinguished of the original architectural features of the district, having been designed in part by Robert Adam. The south-western area was first developed by the Duke of Newcastle who established Oxford Market, now the area around Market Place. By the beginning of the 19th century, this part of London was heavily built upon, severing one of the main routes through it, Marylebone Passage, into the tiny remnant that remains today on Wells Street, opposite what would have been the Tiger public house — now a rubber clothing emporium.

In addition to Fitzroy Square and nearby Fitzroy Street, there are numerous locations named for the FitzRoy family and Devonshire/Portland family, both significant local landowners. Charles FitzRoy was the grandson of Charles FitzRoy, 2nd Duke of Grafton, hence Grafton Way and Grafton Mews. William Bentinck, 2nd Duke of Portland and his wife Margaret Harley lend their names to Portland Place, Great Portland Street and Harley Street. Margaret Harley was daughter of Edward Harley, 2nd Earl of Oxford and Earl Mortimer, for whom Oxford Street (the southern boundary of Fitzrovia) and Mortimer Street are named. The Marquessate of Titchfield is a subsidiary title to the Dukedom of Portland, hence Great Titchfield Street. William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland (Prime Minister) married Dorothy Cavendish, daughter of William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire (also Prime Minister), and they lend their names to New Cavendish Street, Cavendish Square and Devonshire Street. The name of the Grafton family's country estate is Euston Hall, in Euston, Suffolk, and this is the origin of the name for Euston Station and Euston Road.

Two of London's oldest surviving residential walkways can be found in Fitzrovia. Colville Place and the pre-Victorian Middleton Buildings (built 1759 ) are in the old London style of a way. When the parishes of St Pancras and Marylebone became boroughs in 1900, the decision was taken to make minor modifications to the ancient boundaries, whose pre-urban origin meant it cut awkwardly across the built environment in some places. The western half of Charlotte Place the western part of part of Charlotte Street and the eastern half of Rathbone Street were transferred to Marylebone, despite these streets long history within St Pancras and their being more closely integrated with the urban grain of the St Pancras streets to the east.

The most prominent feature of the area is the BT Tower, Cleveland Street, which is one of London's tallest buildings and was open to the public until an IRA bomb exploded in the revolving restaurant in 1971. Another notable modern building is the YMCA Indian Student Hostel on Fitzroy Square, one of the few surviving buildings by Ralph Tubbs.

21st century

The Middlesex Hospital, which closed in 2005 covered an extensive part of the area, and its redevelopment as Fitzroy Place was completed in 2016. The site of the hospital had initially been acquired by the property developer Candy and Candy which demolished the existing buildings to make way for a housing and retail development. The Candy brothers' scheme, which was unpopular with local people, failed during the 2008 credit crunch.

Stanhope plc took over the project and proposed a short-term project which would allow residents to create temporary allotments on the site until a new development was started. However, the Icelandic bank Kaupthing, which had a controlling interest in the site, announced in March 2010 its intention to sell the site on the open market and cancelled the allotments project. In July 2010, the site passed into the ownership of Aviva Investments and Exemplar Properties. A planning application for the new Middlesex Hospital project was submitted in August 2011 and it is understood that Exemplar would commence the redevelopment works in January 2012. The new Middlesex Hospital development was completed in 2014. Separately, Derwent London plc acquired 800000 sqft of property in the area to add to its existing Fitzrovia portfolio after a merger with London Merchant Securities. The company then held about 1000000 sqft of property over more than 30 sites in Fitzrovia. In November 2009 the company announced plans to transform part of Fitzrovia into a new retail destination with cafes and restaurants.

Derwent London created the Fitzrovia Partnership, a then-business partnership with Arup, Make Architects and City of London Corporation, with the support of the London Borough of Camden. In July 2010 Derwent London showcased plans for the redevelopment of the Saatchi & Saatchi building in Charlotte Street. Plans produced by Make Architects proposed increasing the density of the site by 50 per cent and adding shops, cafes and a small open space.

Today, over 128,000 people work within 0.5 miles of Fitzrovia, according to the Fitzrovia Partnership's 2014 Economic Report.

Georgian workhouse
Objection was raised by the local community over plans announced in July 2010 to demolish and redevelop the site of an 18th-century building in Cleveland Street, originally a poorhouse for the parish of St Paul's, Covent Garden, and later the Cleveland Street Workhouse.

Arts

Fitzrovia was a notable artistic and bohemian centre from roughly from the mid-1920s to the present day. Amongst those known to have lived locally and frequented public houses in the area such as the Fitzroy Tavern and the Wheatsheaf are Augustus John, Quentin Crisp, Dylan Thomas, Aleister Crowley, the racing tipster Prince Monolulu, Nina Hamnett and George Orwell. The Newman Arms on Rathbone Street, features in Orwell's novels Keep the Aspidistra Flying (1936) and Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), as well as the Michael Powell film Peeping Tom (1960).

Thomas Paine's Rights of Man (1791) was published during his residence at 154 New Cavendish Street, in reply to Edmund Burke (author of Reflections on the Revolution in France, 1790), who lived at 18 Charlotte Street. Artists Richard Wilson and John Constable lived at 76 Charlotte Street at various times. During the 19th century, painters Walter Sickert, Ford Madox Brown, Thomas Musgrave Joy and Whistler lived in Fitzroy Square. George Bernard Shaw and Virginia Woolf also resided at different times on the square, at number 29. French poets Arthur Rimbaud and Paul Verlaine lived for a time in Howland Street in a house on a site now occupied by offices. Modernist painter Wyndham Lewis lived on Percy Street. The house of Charles Laughton and Elsa Lanchester on Tottenham Street now shows a commemorative blue plaque. 97 Mortimer Street, where H. H. Munro (Saki) lived, now has a blue plaque commemorating his time there. Colin MacInnes author of Absolute Beginners (1959) also resided on Tottenham Street, at number 28, with his publisher Martin Green and his wife Fiona Green.

X. Trapnel, the dissolute novelist (based on the real Julian MacLaren-Ross) in Anthony Powell's Books Do Furnish a Room (1971), spends much of his time holding forth in Fitzrovia pubs. In Saul Bellow's The Dean's December (1982), the eponym, Corde dines at the Étoile, Charlotte Street, on his trips to London, and thinks he "could live happily ever after on Charlotte Street"; Ian McEwan quotes this in Saturday (2005). McEwan lived in Fitzroy Square, and his novel takes place in the area.

Chartist meetings were hosted in the area, some attended by Karl Marx, who is known to have been to venues at Charlotte Street, Tottenham Street and Rathbone Place. The area became a focus of Chartist activities after the Reform Act 1832 and was host to a number of working men's clubs including The Communist Club at 49 Tottenham Street.

The UFO Club, home to Pink Floyd during their spell as the house band of psychedelic London, was held in the basement of 31 Tottenham Court Road. Pink Floyd and Jimi Hendrix also played at the Speakeasy on Margaret Street and Bob Dylan made his London debut at the King & Queen pub on Foley Street. Oxford Street's 100 Club is a major hot-bed for music from the 1960s to the present day, and has roots in 1970s Britain's burgeoning Punk rock movement. The band Coldplay formed in Ramsay Hall, a University College London accommodation on Maple Street. Boy George lived in a squat in Carburton Street in 1981 prior to his success and Neil Howson of Age of Chance lived in Cleveland Street around the same time.

Fitzrovia is also the location of Pollock's Toy Museum, home to erstwhile Toy Theatre, at 1 Scala Street.

At the back of Pollocks and in the next block was the site in 1772 of the Scala Theatre, Tottenham Street – then known as the Cognoscenti Theatre – but it had many names over history: the King's Concert Rooms, the New Theatre, the Regency Theatre, the West London Theatre, the Queen's Theatre, the Fitzroy Theatre, the Prince of Wales and the Royal Theatre until its demolition in 1903 when the Scala Theatre was built on the site for Frank Verity and modelled on La Scala in Milan. It was home to music hall, ballet and pantomime. Before its demolition in 1969, to make way for the office block and hotel that exists now, it was used inside for the filming in 1964 of the Beatles' film A Hard Day's Night, the Mr Universe World competitions, and Sotheby's Auction in 1968 of the Diaghilev costumes and curtains. It was also briefly in the 1970s, in the basement of the office block, the site of the Scala Cinema and later still of Channel 4 Television. The branch of Bertorelli's Italian Restaurant on Charlotte Street was prominently featured in the film Sliding Doors. Guy Ritchie more recently made RocknRolla using Charlotte Mews.

The Fitzrovia Chapel, in Pearson Square, is a Grade II* listed building which hosts exhibitions throughout the year. Stephen Friedman Gallery, Erskine, Hall and Coe and the photographer Richard Ansett have shown at the chapel. The chapel is also used for weddings and fashion shows.

Books
Books about Fitzrovia include: London's Old Latin Quarter, by E. Beresford Chancellor, published by Jonathan Cape, 1930; Fitzrovia, by Nick Bailey, published by Historical Publications, 1981, ISBN 0-9503656-2-9; and Characters of Fitzrovia by Mike Pentelow and Marsha Rowe, published by Chatto & Windus (2001) and Pimlico (2002), ISBN 0-7126-8015-2.

Film
Parts of the film Peeping Tom (1960) were shot in and around Newman Passage and Rathbone Street. Parts of Sapphire (1959) were filmed around Charlotte Street. Parts of Phantom Thread (2017) were filmed on Fitzroy Square and Grafton Mews.

Music
British singer-songwriter Donovan's second album Fairytale features the evocative song Sunny Goodge Street about scoring hashish in the neighborhood. This is the first mention of hash in that era's music. Donovan was the first of his ilk to be busted for it, by no coincidence he points out. The song is a Fitzrovia source for its mention of the Goodge Street platform, perhaps the dollhouses, the song's then-new jazzy feel, and overall lyrics, that foreshadowed life in urban London.

Business
In its early days, Fitzrovia was largely an area of well-to-do tradesmen and craft workshops, with Edwardian mansion blocks built by the Quakers to allow theatre employees to be close to work. Modern property uses are diverse, but Fitzrovia is still well known for its fashion industry, now mainly comprising wholesalers and HQs of the likes of Arcadia Group. New media outfits have replaced the photographic studios of the 1970s–90s, often housed in warehouses built to store the changing clothes of their original industry — fashion. Dewar Studios, leading fashion and modelling photographers based in Great Titchfield Street continue the traditional link to studios. Charlotte Street was for many years the home of the British advertising industry and is now known for its many and diverse restaurants. Today the district still houses several major advertising agencies including Saatchi & Saatchi and TBWA as well as CHI & Partners, Fallon, Dare Digital and Target Media Group. However, the modular ex-BT building occupied by McCann-Erickson was demolished in 2006 after the firm moved to an art deco home in nearby Bloomsbury.

A number of television production and post-production companies are based in the area, MTV Networks Europe, Nickelodeon, rogue and CNN Europe being headquartered here. ITN used to be based at 48 Wells Street during the 1980s, with its Factual Department still housed on Mortimer Street, and Channel 4 was, until 1994, situated on Charlotte Street, and talkbackTHAMES is currently based on Newman Street, with additional offices at 1 Stephen Street. Dennis Publishing is based close by, on Cleveland Street, and London's Time Out magazine and City Guide is created and edited on Tottenham Court Road on the eastern border of Fitzrovia. Many other media companies are based within the area, including Informa, Arqiva and Digital UK.

Reflecting Fitzrovia's connections with the avant-garde the area has a concentration of commercial art galleries and dealers.

Hellmuth, Obata and Kassabaum, an international firm of architects, interior designers, landscape architects, urban planners and advanced strategists are based in the Qube on Whitfield Street, along with Make Architects. Derwent London also have a showroom in Whitfield Street. Derwent London own about one million square feet of property in Fitzrovia: about one fifth of their total portfolio The Langham Estate have a similarly sized land holding in West Fitzrovia. A number of structural engineering consultants are based in offices on Newman Street and the world headquarters of Arup is on Fitzroy Street although they own many of the surrounding buildings (which are in the process of being redeveloped into modern offices). There were once many hospitals (including Middlesex Hospital, which closed in 2006, and St Luke's Hospital for the Clergy, now re-opened after refurbishment). A handful of embassies (El Salvador, Mozambique, Turkmenistan and Croatia) nestle amongst the many and varied public houses. Retail use spills into parts of Fitzrovia from Oxford Street and Tottenham Court Road, which are two of the principal shopping streets in central London.

The Fitzrovia Partnership was formed in 2009 as "a business-led initiative bringing together local businesses to add value and make a tangible difference to the management of Fitzrovia." Since August 2012, the Fitzrovia Partnership has been a formal Business Improvement District (BID). Activities have included installation of Christmas lighting in Tottenham Court Road, Charlotte Street and Fitzroy Street, an annual Christmas market, Feast at Fitzrovia summer festival, and a commitment to local job creation, support for small businesses and a focus on sustainability and improving air quality. In 2011, the BID came in for criticism, with damage to trees in Charlotte Street by Christmas lighting described by the Fitzrovia News as vandalism. The BID also operates a separate "consumer" facing brand – Enjoy Fitzrovia – to promote the area as a destination for shopping, eating, and art within London's West End. In October 2014, The Fitzrovia Partnership teamed up with local resident Griff Rhys Jones to create the Dylan Thomas in Fitzrovia festival, a week of poetry, art and comedy across the area, celebrating the life and times of Dylan Thomas in the area.

Education and research
The University of Westminster has buildings on New Cavendish Street, Wells Street and Great Portland Street. University College London has buildings on Torrington Place, Huntley Street and New Cavendish Street. There are University of London halls of residences on Charlotte Street and Fitzroy Street. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is based at Ridgmount Street and the Royal Anthropological Institute Main office is at 50 Fitzroy Street.

All Souls' Church of England Primary School is at Foley Street. The building is Grade II listed. Southbank International School has two of its campuses located within the area, one on Portland Place and another on the northern end of Conway street (just off Warren Street). The Conway campus houses students from grade 11 and 12 where they study the IB Diploma Programme. Fashion Retail Academy is at Gresse Street.

Social conditions
Although often described as upmarket and home to some celebrities, like much of inner London, Fitzrovia residents have a wide disparity of wealth and the area contains a mix of affluent property owners as well as many private, council and housing association tenants. The neighbourhood is classified as above-averagely deprived, W1W 5AS within neighbourhood Westminster 013A, accessed 25 March 2011. W1W 7QW within neighbourhood Westminster 013D, accessed 25 March 2011. W1W 6DN within neighbourhood Westminster 013B, accessed 25 March 2011. W1T 4RX within neighbourhood Camden 026B, accessed 25 March 2011. W1T 7NN within neighbourhood Camden 026D, accessed 25 March 2011. WC1E 7BT within neighbourhood Camden 026A, accessed 25 March 2011. WC1B 3QU within neighbourhood Camden 028A, accessed 25 March 2011. and parts of it have the worst living environment in the country according to a government report that ranked sub-wards by quality of housing, air quality and the number of road traffic accidents.

Housing and community action

The area lost much of its housing stock to other land uses during the 1960s, leading to the creation of resident's groups seeking to preserve the residential character of the district.

The Charlotte Street Association was formed in 1970, and the Whitfield Study Group began issuing The Tower (later renamed Fitzrovia News) newspaper from 1973. At this time the Newspaper was distributed in an area between Euston Road and Oxford Street, Great Portland Street and Tottenham Court Road. The newspaper called the area Towerland, after the then new BT Tower.

The name Fitzrovia was revived when the first Fitzrovia Festival was held in 1973. The festival had the theme "The people live here!". The organisers sought a name for the festival and an elderly resident named Eric Singer suggested using the name Fitzrovia, a name he remembered hearing in the 1940s, but which had fallen out of use. The purpose of the festival, still held on a regular basis, was to demonstrate that among the offices, restaurants and cafes there was a residential community that wanted its voice heard. The adoption of the name by the campaign groups, covering self-defined areas, meant the name Fitzrovia became applied to a fairly well defined area, one larger than that to which it was once loosely applied. The Newspaper continued to use the names Towerland, Fitzrovia and East Marylebone (for the area in the City of Westminster) in parallel.

The following year, the Fitzrovia Neighbourhood Association was formed and raised money to create a neighbourhood centre in a Grade II listed disused glass shop on the corner of Tottenham Street and Goodge Place. The Fitzrovia Neighbourhood Centre was opened in 1975.

The Fitzrovia Neighbourhood Centre continues to be a place of community action and a venue for voluntary groups to meet, and is the office of the Fitzrovia News which is produced four times a year by volunteers drawn from the residential community. An advice and information service and community projects, including the annual Fitzrovia Festival, are also delivered from the Neighbourhood Centre. The Fitzrovia News and Fitzrovia Festival are both supported by the Fitzrovia Neighbourhood Association.

The new Fitzrovia Community Centre is located at 2 Foley Street in the City of Westminster, just across from the Camden borough boundary. The Centre arose from a town planning (section 106) agreement between University College London Hospital (UCLH) and the London Borough of Camden. This agreement provided funding to provide the new community centre. The building has undergone a major refurbishment and designed to be a modern and welcoming multi-purpose building, with a range of rooms available for large and small groups and individuals.

Two new neighbourhood planning groups are currently in the process of formation. The Fitzrovia West and Fitzrovia East Neighbourhood Areas have been established by Westminster City Council and London Borough of Camden respectively. In addition FitzWest, as it has become known has made further application to become a Neighbourhood Forum.

Nearest railway station

 * Euston to the north east

Paddington, Marylebone, Kings Cross and St Pancras railway stations are all relatively close to Fitzrovia although none (including Euston) is within the boundary of the area.

Nearest London Underground stations

 * Goodge Street
 * Oxford Circus
 * Warren Street
 * Great Portland Street
 * Regent's Park
 * Euston Square
 * Tottenham Court Road

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Fitzrovia


text:
Victoria Embankment

Victoria Embankment is part of the Thames Embankment, a road and river-walk along the north bank of the River Thames in London, England. Built in the 1860s, it runs from the Palace of Westminster to Blackfriars Bridge in the City of London, and acts as a major thoroughfare for road traffic between the City of Westminster and the City of London.

It is noted for several memorials, such as the Battle of Britain Monument, permanently berthed retired vessels, such as HMS President, and public gardens, including Victoria Embankment Gardens.

Earlier embankments
The Victoria Embankment was preceded by many earlier works along the tidal Thames, including central London.

Construction

The Victoria Embankment was designed by civil engineer Francis Webb Sheilds, who submitted designs to a Royal Commission appointed in 1861. Following acceptance of the designs, construction was carried out by the Metropolitan Board of Works on the lines of his scheme. Construction, which started in 1865, was completed in 1870 under the direction of Joseph Bazalgette.

The Victoria Embankment was one element of a three-part work, the other two parts being the Albert Embankment, from the Lambeth end of Westminster Bridge to Vauxhall; and the Chelsea Embankment, extending from Millbank to the Cadogan Pier at Chelsea, close by Battersea Bridge. It was a project of the Metropolitan Board of Works. The contractor for the work was Thomas Brassey. The original impetus was the need to provide London with a modern sewerage system. Another major consideration was the relief of congestion on the Strand and Fleet Street.

The project involved building out on to the foreshore of the River Thames, narrowing the river. The construction work required the purchase and demolition of much expensive riverside property. The cut-and-cover tunnel for the District Railway was built within the Embankment and roofed over to take the roadway. The embankment was faced with granite, and penstocks, designed to open at ebb tide to release diluted sewage when rainstorms flooded the system, were built into it as a means of preventing backups in the drainage system and of periodically flushing the mud banks.

At ground level, in addition to the new roads, two public gardens were laid out. One of these backs onto the government buildings of Whitehall, and the other stretches from Hungerford Bridge to Waterloo Bridge. The gardens contain many statues, including a monument to Bazalgette. The section of the gardens between Waterloo Bridge and Charing Cross station also includes a large bandstand, where musical performances are given, and the 1626 watergate of the former York House built for the first Duke of Buckingham.

The Victoria section was the most complex of the three sections. It was much larger, more complex and more significant to the metropolis than the other two and officially opened on 13 July 1870 by the Prince of Wales and Princess Louise. When people refer to "the Embankment" they are usually referring to that portion of it. The total cost of the construction of the Victoria Embankment is estimated to be £1,260,000 and the purchase of property at £450,000. The total cost includes the cost of materials used in the construction of the embankment.

Issues in construction
Construction of the Victoria Embankment proved to be difficult because of the grandness of it. Parliament was assured that three years would be ample time to complete the project, which did not hold true.

In addition to not having a large enough labour force to complete the work on schedule, the project's architect and property appraiser were challenged in successfully securing rights to all the wharves and other property that were required for access and storage during the project's construction. They also ran into difficulty in acquiring contracts to maintain access to the steamboat landings at Westminster and Hungerford.

In addition, extra time and money were spent experimenting with a new type of cofferdam, a structure used to keep water out of the construction site, which was crucial for building along the tidal Thames.

Electrification
In December 1878 Victoria Embankment became the first street in Britain to be permanently lit by electricity. The light was provided by 20 Yablochkov candles powered by a Gramme DC generator. 16 March 1879 the system was extended to 40 lamps and 10 October to 55 lamps. Previously the street had been lit by gas, and in June 1884, gas lighting was re-established as electricity was not competitive.

Route
The Victoria Embankment (part of the A3211 road) starts at Westminster Bridge, just north of the Palace of Westminster, then follows the course of the north bank, past Hungerford Bridge and Waterloo Bridge, before ending at Blackfriars Bridge in the City. Shell Mex House, the Savoy Hotel and Savoy Place are located between the Embankment and the Strand.

Transport
London Underground stations along Victoria Embankment are Embankment and Temple. London Buses route N550 is the only bus route along the Embankment, providing an overnight service when the tube is shut. Victoria Embankment was also the southern end of the Kingsway Tramway Subway. It was also used by trams as a loop right up until the end of the original tramway system in London in 1952.

London River Services boat services operate from Westminster Millennium Pier, Embankment Pier and Blackfriars Millennium Pier at points along Victoria Embankment. Pleasure cruises operate from Savoy Pier.

London's east–west Cycle Superhighway 3, a kerb-protected cycle track across London, runs along most of the Victoria Embankment: it opened in 2016.

Developing as the imperial city
The embankments were designed as a contribution to "the appropriate, and appropriately civilized, cityscape for a prosperous commercial society." John Thwaites, the chair of the Metropolitan Board of Works, made note that the embankments were an important step in making London recognised as an exemplary imperial city, and that the embankments were the greatest public work to be taken in London. This imperial power was represented in the embankments' grandeur and could be seen in the way they controlled nature, linking the local experience of nature in London to the global rivalries of imperial powers. On the river side, new steamboat piers and landing stairs were designed for river access. Above ground were tree lined roadway and pedestrian walkways, surfaced with York paving stone and decorative gaslight posts for the top of the wall.

Notable sites
Ships permanently moored by Victoria Embankment include HMS President, HQS Wellington, and PS Tattershall Castle.

Other notable attractions include the General Charles Gordon Memorial, Royal Air Force Memorial, National Submarine War Memorial, Battle of Britain Monument, Cleopatra's Needle and the modernistic Cleopatra's Kiosk.

title: Victoria Embankment


text:
Menai Strait

The Menai Strait (Afon Menai) is a strait which separates the island of Anglesey from Gwynedd, on the mainland of Wales. It is situated between Caernarfon Bay in the south-west and Conwy Bay in the north-east, which are both inlets of the Irish Sea. The strait is about 25 km long and varies in width from 400 m between Fort Belan and Abermenai Point to 7.5 km between Puffin Island (Ynys Seiriol) and Penmaenmawr. It contains several islands, including Church Island (Ynys Tysilio), on which is located St Tysilio's Church.

The strait is bridged by the Menai Suspension Bridge (Pont Grog y Borth), which was completed in 1826 to a design by Thomas Telford and carries the A5 road, and the Britannia Bridge (Pont Britannia) a truss arch bridge which carries the North Wales Main Line and the A55 road; it is an adaptation of a tubular railway bridge completed in 1850 to a design by Robert Stephenson, which was severely damaged by a fire in 1970.

The differential tides at the two ends of the strait cause very strong currents which create dangerous conditions. One of the most hazardous areas is the Swellies (Pwll Ceris), between the two bridges, where rocks near the surface cause over-falls and local whirlpools. This was the site of the loss of the training ship HMS Conway in 1953. Entering the strait at the Caernarfon end is also hazardous because of the frequently shifting sand banks that make up Caernarfon bar.

Origins
The present day channel is a result of glacial erosion of the bedrock along a line of weakness associated with the Menai Strait fault system. During a series of Pleistocene glaciations a succession of ice-sheets moved from northeast to southwest across Anglesey and neighbouring Gwynedd scouring the underlying rock; the grain of which also runs in the same direction. The result was a series of linear bedrock hollows across the region, the deepest of which was flooded by the sea as world ocean levels rose at the end of the last ice age (c. 10,000 BC).

History

The name Menai comes from Welsh main-aw or main-wy, meaning "narrow water."

According to Heimskringla, the 11th century Norse-Gael ruler Echmarcach mac Ragnaill plundered in Wales with his friend, the Viking Guttorm Gunnhildsson. However they started quarreling over the plunder and fought a battle at the Menai Strait. Guttorm won the battle by praying to Saint Olaf and Echmarcach was killed.

In the 12th century, a later Viking raid and battle in the Menai Strait are recounted in the Orkneyinga Saga as playing an important role in the life of Magnus Erlendsson, Earl of Orkney – the future Saint Magnus. He had a reputation for piety and gentleness. Refusing to fight in the raid on Anglesey, he stayed on board his ship, singing psalms. This incident is recounted at length in the 1973 novel Magnus by Orcadian author George Mackay Brown, and in the 1977 opera, The Martyrdom of St Magnus by Peter Maxwell Davies. The first of the opera's nine parts is called "The Battle of Menai Strait".

From the 1890s until 1963, the pleasure steamers of the Liverpool and North Wales Steamship Company would ply their main route from Liverpool and Llandudno along the Menai Strait, and around Anglesey. After the company's voluntary liquidation in 1962, P and A Campbell took over the services for a while. Now, every year for two weeks in the summer, the MV Balmoral undertakes a similar service. The most recent service appears to have been Feb-2021, since when the vessel has been taken to dry dock for essential repair work

Tidal effects
The tidal effects observed along the banks of the strait can be confusing. A rising tide approaches from the south-west, causing the water in the strait to flow north-eastwards as the level rises. The tide also flows around Anglesey until, after a few hours, it starts to flow into the strait in a south-westerly direction from Beaumaris. By this time, the tidal flow from the Caernarfon end is weakening and the tide continues to rise in height but the direction of tidal flow is reversed. A similar sequence is seen in reverse on a falling tide. This means that slack water between the bridges tends to occur approximately one hour before high tide or low tide.

Theoretically it is possible to ford the strait in the Swellies at low water, spring tides when the depth may fall to less than 0.5 m. However, at these times a strong current of around 4.8 kn is running, making the passage extremely difficult. Elsewhere in the strait the minimum depth is never less than 2 m until the great sand flats at Lavan Sands are reached beyond Bangor.

The tides carry large quantities of fish, and the construction of fish weirs on both banks and on several of the islands, helped make the Strait an important source of fish for many centuries. Eight of the numerous Menai Strait fish weirs are now scheduled monuments.

Marine
Because the strait has such unusual tidal conditions, coupled with very low wave heights because of its sheltered position, it presents a unique and diverse benthic ecology.

The depth of the channel reaches 15 m in places, and the current can exceed 7 kn. It is very rich in sponges.

The existence of this unique ecology was a major factor in the establishment of Bangor University's School of Ocean Sciences at Menai Bridge, as well as its status as a special area of conservation with marine components. The waters are also a proposed Marine Nature Reserve.

Land
The same unique ecology and geomorphology has let to a number of designations of SSSIs along the strait including Glannau Porthaethwy, the ivy–oak–ash woodland on the southern shore (Coedydd Afon Menai) and Lavan Sands (Welsh: Traeth Lafan). The banks of the Menai Strait are home to the critically endangered Menai Whitebeam. The plant is an extremely rare species of Sorbus only found in this part of North Wales. The population contains about 30 plants, and most of these are thought to be mature.

Much of the land on Anglesey at the eastern end of the strait is designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty.

Menai Bridge

Opened in 1826, the Menai Bridge is a 417 metre long, 30 metre tall suspension bridge, and the first bridge to cross the Menai Strait. The bridge, designed by Thomas Telford, carries the A5, a road which connects the capital London to Holyhead on Holy Island. The bridge itself is grade one listed and a candidate to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Britannia Bridge

Opened in 1850, the Britannia Bridge was built as a rail bridge connecting Anglesey to the mainland. The bridge, 461 metres long and 40 metres tall, carries the North Wales Coast Line connecting Holyhead to Crewe. Between 1970 and 1972, the bridge underwent a redesign in order to accommodate what would later become the A55, a dual carriageway connecting Chester to Holyhead. The bridge is grade two listed and is the more common crossing point out of the two bridges.

Proposed third crossing
Since 2007, a Third Menai Crossing had been proposed by government to tackle congestion on the other two crossings. However, on 14 February 2023, the Welsh Government announced that the project would not go ahead, citing efforts to reduce car usage, its environmental impact and it being a "blot" on the landscape. Issues with financing the project was later stated by the government as another reason why the project could not proceed. Lee Waters, deputy minister for climate change, later stated the crossing could be considered again as part of a wider review into the infrastructure of North Wales, rather than individually.

title: Menai Strait


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Perspective (graphical)

Linear or point-projection perspective is one of two types of graphical projection perspective in the graphic arts; the other is parallel projection. Linear perspective is an approximate representation, generally on a flat surface, of an image as it is seen by the eye. Perspective drawing is useful for representing a three-dimensional scene in a two-dimensional medium, like paper. It is based on the optical fact that for a person an object looks N times (linearly) smaller if it has been moved N times further from the eye than the original distance was.

The most characteristic features of linear perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases, and that they are subject to, meaning that an object's dimensions parallel to the line of sight appear shorter than its dimensions perpendicular to the line of sight. All objects will recede to points in the distance, usually along the horizon line, but also above and below the horizon line depending on the view used.

Italian Renaissance painters and architects including Filippo Brunelleschi, Leon Battista Alberti, Masaccio, Paolo Uccello, Piero della Francesca and Luca Pacioli studied linear perspective, wrote treatises on it, and incorporated it into their artworks.

Overview

Perspective works by representing the light that passes from a scene through an imaginary rectangle (the picture plane), to the viewer's eye, as if a viewer were looking through a window and painting what is seen directly onto the windowpane. If viewed from the same spot as the windowpane was painted, the painted image would be identical to what was seen through the unpainted window. Each painted object in the scene is thus a flat, scaled down version of the object on the other side of the window.

Examples of curvilinear perspective
Additionally, a central vanishing point can be used (just as with one-point perspective) to indicate frontal (foreshortened) depth.

Early history
The earliest art paintings and drawings typically sized many objects and characters hierarchically according to their spiritual or thematic importance, not their distance from the viewer, and did not use foreshortening. The most important figures are often shown as the highest in a composition, also from hieratic motives, leading to the so-called "vertical perspective", common in the art of Ancient Egypt, where a group of "nearer" figures are shown below the larger figure or figures; simple overlapping was also employed to relate distance. Additionally, oblique foreshortening of round elements like shields and wheels is evident in Ancient Greek red-figure pottery.

Systematic attempts to evolve a system of perspective are usually considered to have begun around the fifth century BC in the art of ancient Greece, as part of a developing interest in illusionism allied to theatrical scenery. This was detailed within Aristotle's Poetics as skenographia: using flat panels on a stage to give the illusion of depth. The philosophers Anaxagoras and Democritus worked out geometric theories of perspective for use with skenographia. Alcibiades had paintings in his house designed using skenographia, so this art was not confined merely to the stage. Euclid in his Optics (c. 300 BC) argues correctly that the perceived size of an object is not related to its distance from the eye by a simple proportion. In the first-century BC frescoes of the Villa of P. Fannius Synistor, multiple vanishing points are used in a systematic but not fully consistent manner.

Chinese artists made use of oblique projection from the first or second century until the 18th century. It is not certain how they came to use the technique; Dubery and Willats (1983) speculate that the Chinese acquired the technique from India, which acquired it from Ancient Rome, while others credit it as an indigenous invention of Ancient China. Oblique projection is also seen in Japanese art, such as in the Ukiyo-e paintings of Torii Kiyonaga (1752–1815).

By the later periods of antiquity, artists, especially those in less popular traditions, were well aware that distant objects could be shown smaller than those close at hand for increased realism, but whether this convention was actually used in a work depended on many factors. Some of the paintings found in the ruins of Pompeii show a remarkable realism and perspective for their time. It has been claimed that comprehensive systems of perspective were evolved in antiquity, but most scholars do not accept this. Hardly any of the many works where such a system would have been used have survived. A passage in Philostratus suggests that classical artists and theorists thought in terms of "circles" at equal distance from the viewer, like a classical semi-circular theatre seen from the stage. The roof beams in rooms in the Vatican Virgil, from about 400 AD, are shown converging, more or less, on a common vanishing point, but this is not systematically related to the rest of the composition.

Medieval artists in Europe, like those in the Islamic world and China, were aware of the general principle of varying the relative size of elements according to distance, but even more than classical art were perfectly ready to override it for other reasons. Buildings were often shown obliquely according to a particular convention. The use and sophistication of attempts to convey distance increased steadily during the period, but without a basis in a systematic theory. Byzantine art was also aware of these principles, but also used the reverse perspective convention for the setting of principal figures. Ambrogio Lorenzetti painted a floor with convergent lines in his Presentation at the Temple (1342), though the rest of the painting lacks perspective elements.

Renaissance

It is generally accepted that Filippo Brunelleschi conducted a series of experiments between 1415 and 1420, which included making drawings of various Florentine buildings in correct perspective. According to Vasari and Antonio Manetti, in about 1420, Brunelleschi demonstrated his discovery by having people look through a hole in the back of a painting he had made. Through it, they would see a building such as the Florence Baptistery. When Brunelleschi lifted a mirror in front of the viewer, it reflected his painting of the buildings which had been seen previously, so that the vanishing point was centered from the perspective of the participant. Brunelleschi applied the new system of perspective to his paintings around 1425.

This scenario is indicative, but faces several problems, that are still debated. First of all, nothing can be said for certain about the correctness of his perspective construction of the Baptistery of San Giovanni, because Brunelleschi's panel is lost. Second, no other perspective painting or drawing by Brunelleschi is known. (In fact, Brunelleschi was not known to have painted at all.) Third, in the account written by Antonio Manetti in his Vita di Ser Brunellesco at the end of the 15th century on Brunelleschi's panel, there is not a single occurrence of the word "experiment". Fourth, the conditions listed by Manetti are contradictory with each other. For example, the description of the eyepiece sets a visual field of 15°, much narrower than the visual field resulting from the urban landscape described.

Soon after Brunelleschi's demonstrations, nearly every interested artist in Florence and in Italy used geometrical perspective in their paintings and sculpture, notably Donatello, Masaccio, Lorenzo Ghiberti, Masolino da Panicale, Paolo Uccello, and Filippo Lippi. Not only was perspective a way of showing depth, it was also a new method of creating a composition. Visual art could now depict a single, unified scene, rather than a combination of several. Early examples include Masolino's St. Peter Healing a Cripple and the Raising of Tabitha (c. 1423), Donatello's The Feast of Herod (c. 1427), as well as Ghiberti's Jacob and Esau and other panels from the east doors of the Florence Baptistery. Masaccio (d. 1428) achieved an illusionistic effect by placing the vanishing point at the viewer's eye level in his Holy Trinity (c. 1427), and in The Tribute Money, it is placed behind the face of Jesus. In the late 15th century, Melozzo da Forlì first applied the technique of foreshortening (in Rome, Loreto, Forlì and others).

This overall story is based on qualitative judgments, and would need to be faced against the material evaluations that have been conducted on Renaissance perspective paintings. Apart from the paintings of Piero della Francesca, which are a model of the genre, the majority of 15th century works show serious errors in their geometric construction. This is true of Masaccio's Trinity fresco and of many works, including those by renowned artists like Leonardo da Vinci.

As shown by the quick proliferation of accurate perspective paintings in Florence, Brunelleschi likely understood (with help from his friend the mathematician Toscanelli), but did not publish, the mathematics behind perspective. Decades later, his friend Leon Battista Alberti wrote De pictura (c. 1435), a treatise on proper methods of showing distance in painting. Alberti's primary breakthrough was not to show the mathematics in terms of conical projections, as it actually appears to the eye. Instead, he formulated the theory based on planar projections, or how the rays of light, passing from the viewer's eye to the landscape, would strike the picture plane (the painting). He was then able to calculate the apparent height of a distant object using two similar triangles. The mathematics behind similar triangles is relatively simple, having been long ago formulated by Euclid. Alberti was also trained in the science of optics through the school of Padua and under the influence of Biagio Pelacani da Parma who studied Alhazen's Book of Optics. This book, translated around 1200 into Latin, had laid the mathematical foundation for perspective in Europe.

Piero della Francesca elaborated on De pictura in his De Prospectiva pingendi in the 1470s, making many references to Euclid. Alberti had limited himself to figures on the ground plane and giving an overall basis for perspective. Della Francesca fleshed it out, explicitly covering solids in any area of the picture plane. Della Francesca also started the now common practice of using illustrated figures to explain the mathematical concepts, making his treatise easier to understand than Alberti's. Della Francesca was also the first to accurately draw the Platonic solids as they would appear in perspective. Luca Pacioli's 1509 Divina proportione (Divine Proportion), illustrated by Leonardo da Vinci, summarizes the use of perspective in painting, including much of Della Francesca's treatise. Leonardo applied one-point perspective as well as shallow focus to some of his works.

Two-point perspective was demonstrated as early as 1525 by Albrecht Dürer, who studied perspective by reading Piero and Pacioli's works, in his Unterweisung der Messung ("Instruction of the Measurement").

Limitations

Perspective images are created with reference to a particular center of vision for the picture plane. In order for the resulting image to appear identical to the original scene, a viewer must view the image from the exact vantage point used in the calculations relative to the image. When viewed from a different point, this cancels out what would appear to be distortions in the image. For example, a sphere drawn in perspective will be stretched into an ellipse. These apparent distortions are more pronounced away from the center of the image as the angle between a projected ray (from the scene to the eye) becomes more acute relative to the picture plane. Artists may choose to "correct" perspective distortions, for example by drawing all spheres as perfect circles, or by drawing figures as if centered on the direction of view. In practice, unless the viewer observes the image from an extreme angle, like standing far to the side of a painting, the perspective normally looks more or less correct. This is referred to as "Zeeman's Paradox".

title: Perspective (graphical)