text:
Talk:Mount Monadnock

M'k Hazards
I included safety warnings, even tho Monadnock is different from Sodium or Florine. As Dennis Hopper's character said, "I know, sometimes he goes too far. He's the first to admit it." Well, probably i haven't left anything out, and hopefully it's easier to edit out than edit in. Have at it. --Jerzy 06:39, 2003 Nov 20 (UTC)

But I'm not sure warnings belong here - it seems to me, wikipedia could put similar warnings in every article about a mountain or trail or ski area - or almost anything. I'd like to take them all out, I think - maybe reduce it to one sentence along the lines of "Despite the popularity, Monadnock remains dangerous enough to require caution" or something better-written that that. - DavidWBrooks 14:26, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Tnx, David; this is the kind of discussion i was hoping for.
 * As i indicated, my edit is the maximum i would consider, but my take right now is that if this article ends up with only a warning like your suggestion, i will consider that
 * my contributing at all to that article was a worthwhile but failed experiment, and
 * further articles on WP, intended to aid experiencing of mountains this or more hazardous, would be irresponsible.
 * I'd be interested in whether you see the warnings text as unsuitable to
 * the respective pages at least 90% of the northern-New-England mtns that are at least that tall, or
 * WP entirely.
 * I.e., would your concerns be satisfied if this section were linked from the article, on Mountain safety as, e.g., the "three-season" sub-sub-section of "Intermediate-sized northern-New-England mountains"? Probably with the language you were working toward providing the context for the link, e.g. " Despite the popularity, Monadnock remains dangerous enough to require caution . " or " Despite the popularity, Monadnock remains dangerous enough to require caution; see  Mountain safety . "
 * I'm glad you mentioned "every ... trail or ski area". IMO,
 * it'd be (at least) rare for a non-mountain trail to need a warning, and
 * skiing is a perfect example of what mtn hiking is not, and why mtn hiking may be unique in the degree of need for warnings.
 * Most dangerous sports ("forms of recreation", to be precise) require a newbie to talk to at least a salesperson before starting. In fact, i've been in a ski-equipment store where i could imagine the owners having a set speech for new employees like
 * We hired you for your skiing experience, and our business is about repeat customers; don't hesitate to tell a customer "I'm sorry, sir, if you really insist on having the A without getting the B to go with it, you should go see if you can get it at Walmart. I don't want your business, if it means endorsing something unsafe to get it." When they demand to see the manager, i'll probably tell them that you got a little out of hand, and say "The 'no implicit warranty of safety' language the lawyer put on the sales slip for dealing with ignorant punk kids can work in this situation as well, and yes, we'll take your money, uncomfortable as it is to profit from someone else's probable misfortune.  And we hope you'll end up seeing it as a plus when our guys try to discourage choices like yours, because they really do know some important stuff."
 * Eastern Mountain Sports prints on its shopping bags "Not just knowledge, know-how." as another example of the principle. But the problem is that many people get started on mtns w/o buying anything specific to the project.  If i see someone on a mtn in tennis shoes, i may well ask without preface whether they have a map. --Jerzy 18:10, 2003 Nov 20 (UTC)

Yeah, but this is an encyclopedia, not a how-to guide. Having said that, I think your mountain safety idea is excellent: Wanna implement it? DavidWBrooks 22:09, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I like that approach if only bcz the repetitive text should be centralized. Yeah, i think i'll put it near the top of my to-do list; i'd expect to do it piecemeal, and leave places i'm ignorant abt to others after creating red links on their mntns.  Presumably an incomplete treatment that acks its shortcomings is superior to nothing.  Tnx again. --Jerzy 02:14, 2003 Nov 21 (UTC)

Red-font markup
An editor summarized the removal of red-font markup by a question abt Monadnock's death and injury rate per year.

Casualty Rate
There won't of course be any record of injury rate, since the term is ill-defined, and i don't have any annual death- or rescue-rate figures. However:

On busy summer days, at the summit, a uniformed on-duty ranger sits, apparently enjoying the view. "It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it", right? In fact, a similar question has been asked without irony: "It looks like you've got light duty today; is that a matter of seniority, or does every one get a turn at it?"

The answer is that only one person does that duty, bcz no other ranger assigned to M'k is able to climb from the ranger station at the main entrance to the summit several times in the same day, and that is how often, on the high-volume summer days that build the estimates that say M'k is a highly climbed mtn, the ranger at the top is notified that someone (presumably nearly always somewhere down the mtn a ways, on any of a variety of trails) is in trouble. I presume that some of them are already injured, that others have decided they shouldn't continue either up or down and are waiting to be told what to do about it, and that others have lost enuf of their judgement to dehydration and/or low blood sugar that they can't see what is obvious to the person notifying the ranger: they are the scene of a race among discouragement, stubbornness, and the ranger, whose outcome determines where they fit into the statistics.

So IMO the question should not focus on the injuries and deaths, but on
 * the effort invested in routine rescues
 * the effort and risk invested in major rescues and
 * the value of people who have no idea what they are getting into on M'k knowing more, and
 * the value of people who get a major part of their knowledge of M'k, or of their interest in it, from WP, getting NPOV, rather than the PoV from which it is easy to infer the invitation "everybody and their cousin climbs M'k, what's keeping you away?"

Red Type
As to the red type, i am restoring some of it pending further discussion, in the belief that the removing editor either
 * intended to implicitly state a criterion for use of red type, which the section above IMO meets, or
 * acted in the mistaken belief that "we don't use colored type in WP", whereas the fact is that at least red is used, in a practice dating from at least over a year ago, routinely in highlighting safety information, as with florine, and no doubt many other chemical elements. (I haven't checked compounds and categories, e.g., nitric acid, strong acid, trichlorethylene, and hydrofloric acid (HF).) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerzy (talk • contribs) 17:10, 25 November 2003 (UTC)

Fuji comparisons
"Since 1990, it has been suggested that so many of Fuji's climbers have shifted to new public transportation that Monadnock's annual total of foot traffic now exceeds Fuji's."

I keep hearing claims along those lines, mostly from New Hamphire tourism committees. But I can't find any sign of such a transport system in, say, maps or photos of Mt Fuji. There's a choice of buses to get to a "fifth station" at about 2400 meters on a few different sides, but from any of those you still have to hike about a thousand meters(comparable to the total elevation of Mt Monadnock) [I edited this sentence after having originally pulled a NASA and mixed feet and meters] to reach the summit - not the kind of thing that would disqualify Fuji as "most hiked mountain in the world" based on "annual total of foot traffic." Has anybody SEEN this supposed 'new public transportation' on Fuji??

BTW, the NH parks department compiles estimates of Monadnock traffic as part of their budget projection process. I'll post a link in a minute.

And on a third topic, I don't think any warning is justified. Yes, there are plenty of injuries in terms of annual numbers, but that's because Monadnock is a very crowded place. Would you include a warning in an article about a movie theater, a sports stadium, or a city sidewalk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 21:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Good add about the Fuji people-carrier ...
 * I have moved your comments to the bottom of the Talk page, where new discussions usually start, and removed the lines between paragraphs, which made it confusing to read. Also, don't indent - in wikipedia that makes it print your text in a weird bos

like this

 * The safety warning discussion is a couple years old and, as you'll see from the article, the consensus agreed with you: There are no warnings in it. The Mt. Fuji public transportation does refer to direct buses to several of the so-called 5th stations, which otherwise are estimated to take from 5 to 10 hours to reach by foot. Whether that has had the discussed effect on foot traffic is debatable. It depends on whether they count people who only hike partway up the mountain as having hiked it.
 * Why not start an account and sign your messages? You can stay completely anonymous, but it makes it easier to figure out who is saying what in discussions like this, and it makes it easier to include a time stamp. - DavidWBrooks 21:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I found it: http://www.nhstateparks.org/ParksPages/Monadnock/MMP040103/monadnockmasterplanch1Final.pdf

"Today, approximately 95,000 visitors come to the state park annually." This report was written in 2003. The state park includes the summit, nearly all the hiking trails, the parking lots, a picnic area, and cross-country-ski trails. Some hikers use trails that start outside the state park and may be harder to count, but this is a very small percentage of the total: the non-park trailheads don't have any parking!

So where did the 125,000 figure come from?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I've answered my own question: that figure came from a web page http://www.tmclark.com/monadnock.html quoting "Grand Monadnock: Exploring The Most Popular Mountain In America" By Julia Older and Steve Sherman, Appledore Books, Hancock, N.H., 1990.  That same quotation was plagiarized for the whole paragraph mentioning Fuji in the Wikipedia article (I've since edited it).  I have my doubts about the reliability of this source, since it takes one I consider a one-sided view of the Fuji question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 16:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Back to the Fuji bus question: I made an edit that makes it clear that Fuji's buses don't go all the way to the top and removes the deceptive and plagiarized phrase "total foot traffic". I originally included the following sentence, but decided it came too close to taking a position and is too detailed for the top of the article:

"Whether it's fair to disqualify a hiker who starts from Fuji's highest bus station at 2,380 meters, and gains 1,396 meters on foot, compared to hikers on Mt Monadnock who experience under 600 meters of elevation gain but have climbed "the whole mountain", is debatable." Would it be worthwhile to devote some kind of sidebar to this question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 16:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I think what you put in was good; leaves the question open without being windy. I tweaked it all very slightly and put in the 2003 year for the NH parks figure. - DavidWBrooks 19:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

you wrote: "..state park authority estimates that 95,000 people climbed to the top in 2003". That's not precisely what they said. I'm editing that sentence so as not to put words in their mouths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 22:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Quite correct - my error. - DavidWBrooks 22:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I am a huge fan of Mount Monadnock, and I actually grew up in the next town over, but having spent a large chunk of time in China, I have to say I really doubt that Mount Monadnock surpasses any of the important Chinese mountains (Tai Shan, Wutai Shan, Huang Shan, Hua Shan even Changbai Shan etc...)in terms of numbers of climbers per year. Is there any hard numbers on this? I feel like the NH Tourist Bureau has really strung people along. It's a bit irresponsible. W. Little — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.85.106 (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You may well be correct. Do you know of any numbers for Chinese mountains? - DavidWBrooks 20:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi just came across this old discussion, if anybody is still interested. I can't comment on the Chinese mountains, but Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa in North Wales is claimed by the National Park Authority to have 400,000 visitors to the summit every year, with another 100,000 on the mountain railway. The NPA has never made the most climbed claim itself, but it has been made by others including the popular UK mountain and hill walking magazine Trail. Having done the climb many times myself, I can attest to the popularity of the mountain, I have sometimes had to queue for the summit. The shortest path to the summit has a vertical climb of about 600m, while the longest are about 1000m. Flossiesheep (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The Cave
I've climbed Monadnock maybe 100 times in my life, mostly without much meandering off the trails. I've heard locals talk about a large cave on the mountain. Many people have told me it's in such and such a place or such and such another place but I never seem to be able to find it.

Is it just some local folklore or is there actually a significantly sized cave on the mountain? And would anyone care to describe where it is for us discussion page lurkers? Perhaps a photo? Glippy00 11:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * New Hampshire has very little in the way of caves because of our geology. All that igneous rock, you know - cave-rich areas tend to be made of limestone, a softer rock that wears away from moisture. So my guess would be no, although that's far from certain. - DavidWBrooks 13:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * In New Hampshire, "cave" often means a man-sized gap left behind when a block of granite has slipped, or the gap beneath two or more large boulders jumbled together. (example: http://www.polarcaves.com/areas/caves.html) I don't recall seeing one on Monadnock (or ever hearing of one), but it wouldn't surprise me if one existed, especially off-trail.  "Significantly sized"?  That'd surprise me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.45.242.3 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

 * There is a small man-made cave on the mountain. It has a manmade (metal? wood?) roof and it used to have a door (now gone, as I understand it. My neighbor's son's scout troop has hiked to it. It is off of Cascade Link near the junction with Pumpelly Trail and not easy to find. My understanding is that it is easier to locate from Cascade Link Trail moving upwards. No idea if it's on the left or the right. It is not visible from the trail. It is apparently near some ledges. I've seen photographs of the cave taken by my neighbor's son. There is a story (perhaps a "rural" legend) that the cave, which faces east, was used during World War I as a beacon location for a german spy to signal ships off the New England coast. I have my doubts whether the story is true, but the cave is in fact there. DHLister 01:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC); Comment edited 20:13, 14 May 2007 by User:192.18.128.13

I must protest your removal of my panorama.
From what I have read of the wikipedia image guidelines, the original panorama does not meet them. The picture has visible seams for one thing, and for another, the left and right sides don't match up. Also, the guidelines state that bigger is better and images should have a resolution of at LEAST 1000. The original panorama's vertical resolution is only 518 pixels tall, yet nearly as wide as my image which is twice as tall.

The guidelines also state that the image should not be compressed too much. An image that size should not be a mere 380K. That is part of the reason it is so blurry.

These policies of having large images which are not over comrpessed go against what you said about having pity on people with slow net connections. When you click a thumbnail you get a larger version. When you click that larger version you get a full sized image. Those with slow net connections need not click for the full sized version. You might as well argue that the original image is too wide for people with an 800x600 display which is what a good 50% of PC's on the market are set to.

You also said my image doesn't add anything new. I counter that my image shows off the beauty of the mountain better than the original image, which looks flat and boring. I have many other very nice pictures of the mountain which I was considering submitting, but if the people maintaining wikipedia think awful images like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DSC_0456.JPG are good enough, then what's the point? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scswift (talk • contribs) 03:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

 * I didn't say your picture wasn't good - it is. But Wikipedia is not a place for a collection of "nice pictures" of places; just think what articles about, say, the Grand Canyon or Eiffel Tower would look like that in that case. One panorama giving a sense of the sweep of the view at the crest is sufficient. If you had something very different - a good aerial view from above, for example - that would be a new addition and worthy of inclusion.
 * If you think the current photo is crummy, then remove it and put yours in its place and see what the reaction is. But we can't just pile up similar photos. - DavidWBrooks 11:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I didn't do that (remove the original) because I didn't think I should make the decision about which one is kept. I thought by placing the second one there, whatever mechanisms wikipedia has for opening up discussion on the merits of one image over another would be put into motion.  But if that's the proper way to go about doing things, then maybe I'll do that. Scswift 02:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I say put yours back in and take out the original. The new one is better. That's my vote anyhow. --Glippy00 19:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Fire / Wolf Myth
I believe that the story about the wolfs and setting fires etc, is a myth, if there is a source for this please cite it or move this subject out of history and into folklore. thanks, Strangealibi 19:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * It's pretty well regarded as true. I put in a reference as an external link. And here's another: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:ehf20CiFNxkJ:www.nhstateparks.org/ParksPages/Monadnock/MMP040103/monadnockmasterplancvrFinal.pdf+monadnock+fire+wolves&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us - DavidWBrooks 20:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Most park staff will tell you otherwise, especially the Park Manager who is something of a Monadnock Scholar. As for a citable source, according to Craig Brandon's 2007 book Monadnock: More than a Mountain, "The wolves, however, were exterminated some years before that[1820], so it seems unlikely that the 1820 fire was deliberately set." TerminalSaint (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Infobox photo
The infobox needs a good photo of the mountain. For a mountain that is reportedly the second most climbed in the world, hard to believe we don't have any good photos. RedWolf 03:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Melville and Moby Dick
The statement "Herman Melville compared the hump of Moby Dick to Monadnock when describing Captain Ahab's final struggle with the whale." is not correct. It was Mt. Greylock in Adams, MA that was his inspiration. He could view this mountain from the very room in which he wrote Moby Dick. (The estate is called Arrowhead in Pittsfield, MA and can be visited most days of the year.)

The shape and snow-covered summit reminded him of a whale. I don't know if he ever climbed Monadnock but he certainly did climb Greylock many times and loved the mountain as did many other artists and authors such as Nathaniel Hawthorne, William Cullen Bryant, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Henry David Thoreau. In fact Thoreau's experience on Greylock was said to have a huge effect on his life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.183.236 (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Odd then though that Monadnock would be capitalized in the book, no? That seems to point towards the notion that Melville is in fact referencing specifically the Great Monadnock or Mt. Monadnock as it's also known as opposed to any old monadnock mountain. Seems to me the evidence is pretty blatantly in support of the reference being about this particular mountain. Unless you have some reference in a journal of his or letter or some such that mentions him referring to Greylock as a Monadnock with a capital 'M'.
 * Glippy00 04:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

 * See the Mount Greylock article for references. If you make me work it, I can find many others as well; its a well documented item. Melville even dedicated anotehr book to Greylock. You'd be hard pressed to find a Monadnock connection from a reliable source. Monadnock was commonly used to describe mountains in New England at that time. The writers of that time often capitalized such things without meaning a proper noun. Also, the profile of Mount Greylock resembles the body of a whale. All said, I don't think a Monadnock=Mellville reference belongs in here unless you can find a reliable documented source that specifically suggests such a connection. (--Pgagnon999 (talk) 22:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Mount / Mountain?
The GNIS lists this as "Monadnock Mountain", not "Mount Monadnock". Should we rename this article? —wwoods (talk) 21:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Nobody - and I mean nobody - who lives anywhere near it calls it anything mountain - mostly "Mount Monadnock", or "Grand Monadnock" to differentiate it from other Mondandocks nearby. We absolutely should not rename it. (I have created Monadnock Mountain as a redirect to here, in case a GNIS reader tries that name) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 22:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Leaning towards no. The State of NH refers to it as Mount Monadnock in their "Monadnock State Park Master Plan". Using the quick (and dirty) Google check, "Mount Monadnock" has more hits than "Monadnock Mountain" . I know that, typically, it is locally refered to as Mount Monadnock. A very good question. Is there any type of guideline on this? Zue Jay  (talk)  22:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Virtually all the mountains in New Hampshire - New England, I think - are "mount so-and-so" not "so-and-so mountain" - most famously Mount Washington. That GNIS name is really quite odd; it must have been plugged in to some generic mountain-naming formula. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The GNIS page lists "Mount Monadnock Mountain" as a variant name. 8-) Maybe we should drop them a email, suggesting a change?
 * —wwoods (talk) 21:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

new edits
Added a bunch of material, reorganized the article under more comprehensive sections, and made other edits. Let me know what you think. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 02:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

southwest NH
Hi Pgagnon999, sorry we got into a bit of an edit back-and-forth there. It was late! If you look at the article history, you'll see that it said southwest New Hampshire before you changed it to southeast New England, citing the Berkshires - that's when I entered. All I ever did was revert edits, never rewrite.

More importantly, though, it's not correct to say Monadnock is the most prominent mountain in southeast New England because it's in northern New England. Nobody ever calls New Hampshire part of southern New England - that would be like saying Nebraska is in the Southeast U.S. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Does that mapping software reference you just added call it southern New England? I really believe it is confusing to many readers to call something in New Hampshire part of southern New England, which almost always means Mass., R.I. and Conn. - if they're a little iffy on their geography, that statement will really throw them off.
 * I think the point of adding "southern" is to show that it's smaller than the Whites.
 * But when you think about it, that long, clunky phrase just says that Monadnock is the most prominent mountain not in the prominent ranges in adjoining states - is that something we really want to gum up the introductory paragraph saying? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I have understood Southern New England to be MA/RI/CT. Perhaps there's another way to restate it to ease confusion?  Jrclark (talk) 14:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

David, if you look at the history, you'll see that the southeast reference has stood on the article for some time now; it was changed by an anon user; I reverted that edit because it created a poorly worded sentence (echo reference to location as "New Hampshire") and removed reference to Monadnock's place in the geography of New England. Then you reverted my revert (leaving the poorly worded language intact), and here we are.

As for the confusion about southern New England, it's a matter of perspective, but I see your point (and yours Jrclark); I'll work something out to clarify that. Thanks for discussing.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 14:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * You're right about the "southeast NE" comment having been there for ages and I never noticed it - so much for my righteous indignation! (smacks forehead) Anyway, the wording you've redone looks fine to me. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I still think the sentence "the most prominent New England mountain peak south of the White Mountains and east of the Massachusetts Berkshires" is really clunky. What's the point of being so specific like that?  Wouldn't it be easier to say "one of the most prominent New England mountain peaks" and leave it at that? Trying to pinpoint "most prominent east of here, south of there, and within a ten mile radius of this point" makes it too wordy and specific for your average reader.  Just my thoughts... -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Because it isn't one of the most prominant peaks in New England. There are dozens of peaks more prominant or higher in northern and western New England. The sentence is precise and maybe a tiny bit long, but gramatically correct, and it puts the mountain into geographic context, which is important, as the mountain occupies an unusually dominant position within a relatively large geographic area.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 16:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Maybe something like, "the most prominent peak in the southern half of New Hampshire"? The next one up being Smarts, and the closest more-prominent peaks being Ascutney and Stratton in Vermont.
 * —WWoods (talk) 19:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Sigh. Perhaps the best way to show geographic relationship would be to bring up the material that shows Monadnock's distance from Boston and Concord and eliminating mention of New England topography in the top of the header--Pgagnon999 (talk) 19:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC).

 * What's wrong with (if I may be repetitive) "southwest New Hampshire"? Does that seem too narrowly focused, perhaps? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Nothing in of itself. The attempt was to show the mountain's topographic importance within the context of the New England region; but it looks like that won't be easy to do after all.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I wonder if there might be some formal source we could quote that would illustrate its importance - "the mountain has been called "one of the finest examples of stand-alone-mountainification in the Eastern seaboard" by professor XYZ" - without our having to be geographically specific. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * On further consideration, I think we could fairly say, "one of the most prominent New England mountain peaks" in the introduction, if we identify our criterion. Push the details on topography down in the article. Being #33 isn't as impressive as being #3, but it's still among the top 50 out of however-many-thousand NE peaks.
 * —WWoods (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * That might work; the hard part will be squeezing the criterion into the header, as the term "prominence" per the Fifty Finest isn't an apparent concept; it would probably be confused with the dicdef "prominence."--Pgagnon999 (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry I've come late to this discussion. I've never really been a big fan of the whole "prominence" concept, because the lowest separating valley from the next highest peak can be an awfully long way away - for Monadnock, it would be the gap in Canaan, New Hampshire, that Route 4 and the Northern Railroad take to the Lebanon area.  Really, the significance of Monadnock lies not in its certain number of feet that it rises above its surrounding terrain, but the fact that it is a prominent (used non-technically), isolated peak, whose name has come to be used as a generic term for any isolated peak.  Let me see if I can work that idea into the opening sentences of the article. --Ken Gallager (talk) 14:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

move article and dab?
I'm thinking that it might be best to move this article to either Mount Monadnock (Jaffrey, New Hampshire) or Grand Monadnock. The reason: there are other mountains with the same or similar names; per Wiki general policy, that would indicate the need for a general dab page to which are linked specific article pages with unambiguous titles. Granted, Mount Monadnock is by far more widely known. . .and I feel a certain resistance to altering it. ..but it would conform to policy better. Someone living in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont might well be more familiar with the mountain by the same name up there. What do you the rest of you think?--Pgagnon999 (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Having been through about 20 of these, my first reaction is "don't move it unless there's compelling evidence of confusion." My second reaction is that this Mount Monadnock is so much better known that any other that it should remain the default article (however, I live fairly near it, so my viewpoint may be skewed). But my third reaction is that wikipedia's vast reach has made following naming policy more important; if this article was being created today, it would probably start as a disambig. So I guess I'd agree that Mount Monadnock should become a disambiguation page. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I think we need to maintain the fact that this Mount Monadnock is by far -- more "by far" than in most cases -- the most well-known mountain. Before we go and move the article, let's start with a "hat note" (I've been hanging out with the disambiguation people) at the top that will direct people to a disambiguation page.  I'll be happy to create the note and the page.  I suspect that in this case, that is all that would be needed. --Ken Gallager (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks good & seems to solve the problem. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I went a step further and created a general Monadnock (disambiguation)--Pgagnon999 (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Much obliged. That solves the issue nicely.--Ken Gallager (talk) 12:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Advertising?
Something that resembles an advertisement for a dance (including an external URL) continues to be inputted on the article. Another user has also editted this down. Jrclark (talk) 14:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the name
Craig Brandon's Monadnock: More than a Mountain mentions a compelling theory on the name of the mountain presented by former NH Parks director Will LaPage. Specifically he contends that the mountain was named by Scotch Irish explorers who left Boston in the late 17th century. "monadh" means "mountain" in ancient Gaelic, and "nock" means "low hill". The name could have be adopted by Native American guides and then assumed to be of aboriginal origin by later Europeans entering the region. While not a citable source, Will LaPage lays out the theory himself here: From The Monadnock File #1 -- What's in a Name? TerminalSaint (talk) 02:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm a British geographer/geologist who has long been familiar with the term 'monadnock' as applies to this form of mountain. Until reading this article I'd never considered for a minute that the name origin might have been anything but an anglicisation of the Scottish Gaelic 'monadh' + 'cnoc'; it fits so well. Of course I know next to nothing about native American languages. Can an expert in the Abanaki language assist us here, in case it is a borrowing from Gaelic? Geopersona (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

 * Interesting question. I'm going to copy your request to the Abenaki people talk page, since that is probably where the language experts will see it. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

 * Also copied to Talk:Abenaki language, which seems to get less traffic, however. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

 * The difficulty, of course, is that there are way more Gaelic language experts than Abenaki. Not sure when the latter was written down, but I suspect no native speakers left, except self-taught. Nearly all languages have "borrow" words. We can probably trace those in Gaelic. Probably can't in Abenaki. I'm pretty sure I have stumbled across a single "dictionary" someplace in the various articles, but it might have been on an allied language. One dictionary, written late in the language use. And quite probably without this word in it. Even if it were there, no possibility of tracing its derivation (was it "borrowed" from Europeans?). Student7 (talk) 13:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

 * I find it unlikely that "The Mountain that stands alone" would be an Indian word, considering that "Monad" is Greek for "Alone". 99.111.149.90 (talk) 04:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

 * It's a common confusion. --Ken Gallager (talk) 14:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The question was answered and sources provided in 2020 at Talk:Abnaki language, copied below: Ken Gallager (talk) 12:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

 * "The etymology of Monadnock:
 * The name “Monadnock” — “Mon-ADD-nock” seems to be the preferred pronunciation — is derived from the Native American Indian Abenaki language: menonadenak, meaning "smooth mountain," or menadena, meaning “isolated mountain.” Other sources identify it deriving from menonadenak, not menadena. At any rate, it seems unlikely it is connected in any way to Scottish Gaelic terms as Indigenous place names are often constructed from their own words that describe the particular place, its location or, especially, its features.
 * That is from this source: https://altamontenterprise.com/opinion/columns/back-roads-geology/10042013/monadnock-peak-became-paradigm
 * Also, Monadnock, from Mnona'denak meaning To the bare smooth mountain. Source:
 * Abenaki Indian Legends, Language, and Place Names, by Henry Lorne Masta, copyright 1932:
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Abenaki_Indian_Legends_Grammar_and_Place/ojg76JFg6eIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=monadnock
 * PaulThePony (talk) 23:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)"

First Ascent
Shouldn't that be first European Descent? I find it hard to believe no Natives climbed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.128.30.197 (talk) 17:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

 * The article in fact says "Earliest recorded ascent", so there is nothing misleading about it. Of course we can all presume the local Abenaki climbed it now and then, but there is no record of it. --Ken Gallager (talk) 18:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Maybe not: many American Indian cultures deliberately did not climb their local high peaks out of spiritual tradition and culture. It's impossible to say for Monadnock, of course, and it seems unlikely that nobody would ever have made it to the top in the pre-European era, when it was still forested - if for no other reason than as part of hunting game. But "recorded" covers the facts nicely. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

It's also laughable to state with any kind of straight face that it's first ascent was in 1725. There are all kinds of political and racial issues associated with historical events such as "first peaked" but it's ludicrous and laughable to say this incredible peak, available to all kinds of groups for thousands of years, was "first peaked in 1725." Come on... — Preceding unsigned comment added 21:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC) by ChrisEOlive (talk • contribs)

 * I moved the above comment here from the "Infobox photo" section above. The comment is already answered by the discussion above. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Picture removed
A picture was recently removed, supposedly because it adds nothing to the article. I would agree that the picture is not essential, but it surely adds something. Since the mountain is climbed so frequently, an example of the sort of detail that brings people back many times (in my case, 73 times) seems completely appropriate. It also is relevant that the trails often double as streams or intermittent drainage. Perhaps this fact can be mentioned as part of the caption?Witnessforpeace (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I removed the photo, which showed a small cascade of water falling on a trail. Speaking as somebody who has climbed Monadnock many times as well as many similar small mountains in the region, it could easily have been taken in 100 different places hereabouts. Many, probably most, New England mountain have trails that often double as streams. (As a volunteer trail worker, lots of what we do on trail days is built "water bars" to limit this happening.) This a situation is not specific to Monadock at all - virtually the same photo could be attached to almost any article about a New England mountain with trails. That's why I removed it; there needs to be a higher bar for pictures to do added to articles about popular sites, or else they turn into tourist photo galleries. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 18:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

New Infobox Photo
I was wondering if we could select a new photo for the infobox? I have two concerns with the current one: The first being that most Wikipedia articles on mountains have a very clear view of the summit and some of their surroundings. Where as the current one is a shot of the north-western ridge line (Dublin/Marlborough Trail). The photo is also a little blurry for one taken mid-day.

I uploaded some photos to Wikimedia awhile ago and would love to use one of them for the photo but I wanted to see what others thought first. The photos can be seen here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mount_Monadnock#/media/File:Mt._Monadnock_Summit.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mount_Monadnock#/media/File:Mt._Monadnock.jpg

I also have an extremely high resolution stitched-photo that could be used on my site: (warning 8MBs) http://blarney.me/projects/imgGallery/photos/2013-12-07_Monadnock/2013-12-07-Panorama02.jpg

If I don't hear any objections I will probably change the photo in a few weeks and see how it is received.

Additionally the current panorama is very blurry and has some exposure issues. I don't have any suitable photos but if there is any interest I could take a good one. Probably once the warmer weather roles in since I think a warm season photo better represents the mountain.

Jonwmcinenrey (talk) 15:23, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Why not go ahead and replace it now? Either of the first two in your set would provide better context than the current photo. The second one shows the full height of the mountain (and is quite striking), but the first one fills the photo area better, so it's your call. Thanks for offering! --Ken Gallager (talk) 12:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the go-ahead. I went through my photos and found a photo that was a little more "plain" which I felt was more appropriate for Wikipedia. It's a clear shot of the summit, during mid-day. I wish I had a photo that better showed the scale of the mountain versus the surrounding area but maybe down the road. Jonwmcinenrey (talk) 02:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Definitive (?) Elevation
I am a fan of LiDAR data, and I recently noted that the summit elevation for Monadnock seems to vary by source. Google lists 3166', this page 3165', and Peakbagger lists NAVD88 of 3149' but allows a range from 960-966 meters (3149' to 3169'). NH GRANIT http://granit.sr.unh.edu/ has LiDAR data for the mountain, and from what I can gather, lists the peak at a few inches over 3170' (with an error of less than a foot). Is it policy here to reflect the "official" elevation? I've contacted the NH Division of Parks and Rec. about this. Markstock (talk) 20:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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title: Talk:Mount Monadnock


text:
Phosphatization

Phosphatization, or phosphatic fossilization, refers to the process of fossilization where organic matter is replaced by abundant calcium-phosphate minerals. It has occurred in unusual circumstances to preserve some extremely high-resolution microfossils in which careful preparation can even reveal preserved cellular structures. Such microscopic fossils are only visible under the scanning electron microscope.

Mechanism
Large quantities of phosphate are required, either from seawater or from the tissues of the decaying organism. In some cases microbes control the phosphatization, and the remains of the microbes that fed on the preserved tissue form the fossil. In other, the tissue itself is the source of phosphate and its phosphatized remains form the fossil. In the intermediate case the phosphatized tissue retains the impressions of the phosphatizing microbes.

Phosphatic preservation in Burgess Shale-type fossils
Soft-tissue fossils, such as those found in the Burgess Shale, are rare. In some cases their internal organs are replicated in phosphate. The phosphate mainly comes from the tissue itself, and may later be replaced by calcium carbonate. A low pH makes CaCO3 less likely to precipitate, clearing the way for phosphate to be laid down. This is facilitated by the absence of oxygen in the decaying tissue. Accordingly, (secondary) phosphate is generally only preserved in enclosed spaces, such as a tightly-closed bivalve shell.

Higher concentrations of phosphate in the sea water do not enhance phosphatization, as may seem natural; rather, it increases the rate at which the organism breaks up, perhaps because the mineral "fertilizes" the decay micro-organisms.

Phosphatization can happen quickly: The chitinous structures that support bivalve gills can be replaced by calcium phosphate, with a little help from co-occurring bacteria, in just two to six days. The gill axes and musculature of bivalves can also be preserved in phosphate. The structures that most famously preserved in phosphate in the Burgess Shale are the midgut glands of Leanchoilia, perhaps on account of their central position and plausibly a low pH.

Phosphatization can be microbially mediated, especially in decay-resistant groups such as arthropods; or substrate-dominated, where phosphate-rich tissue leads the mineralization process (as in fish). Cephalopods fall somewhere between these two extremes.

Phosphate-only fossils
In phosphatic fossils, the preservation is so fine that even some cellular structure has been preserved. The phosphatic microfossils of the Doushantuo Formation, a fossil-rich lagerstätte of the Ediacaran period, about 590–565 Ma (megaannua; million years ago), display some of the most spectacular cellular-level preservation known from the geologic record. The fossils include what may be metazoan blastulas, possibly animal embryos at an early stage in cell division.

The Doushantuo Formation presents a classic example of phosphatic fossilization:
 * 'This high-resolution fossil bed is about 30% phosphate, present as the mineral fluorapatite [Ca5(PO4)3F]. Phosphatic beds within this deposit are grainstones composed of 1- to 5-mm phosphoclasts. These derive from a phosphatic surface that formed on the sea floor, in the process recrystallizing existing surface sediments. In addition to replacing carbonate sediments, soft tissues of metazoan embryos, larvae, adults, and algae also appear to have been mineralized. The phosphatized sediment crust was then broken into small fragments by heavy current activity and then redeposited and mixed in with adjacent lime muds. Careful acid baths etch away the limestone matrices, by slowly dissolving the carbonates, and reveal the phosphates that have replaced organic structures, in the manner that Dr. Chen describes. There are other means of fossilization represented in the Doushantuo Formation as well.

A refinement to viewing the internal structure of fossilized embryos uses specialized microscopic three-dimensional X-ray computed tomography, a kind of micro CAT scan.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Phosphatization


text:
White-crowned wheatear

The white-crowned wheatear, or white-crowned black wheatear (Oenanthe leucopyga) is a wheatear, a small passerine bird that was formerly classed as a member of the thrush family Turdidae, but is now more generally considered to be an Old World flycatcher, Muscicapidae.

This large 17–18 cm long wheatear breeds in stony deserts from the Sahara and Arabia across to Iraq. It is largely resident but has occurred as a rare vagrant to western Europe as far away as Great Britain. It nests in crevices in rocks or walls laying 3-5 eggs.

Although most wheatear species have distinctive male and female plumages, adults of both sexes of this species are black except for a white rump and mainly white tail. Full adults have a white crown, not shown by young birds.

The similar black wheatear, Oenanthe leucura, also breeds in the western part of the white-crowned wheatear's range, but the latter has a black inverted T on its white tail, whereas white-crowned has only a black centre to its tail. The black wheatear never has a white crown.

This species mainly eats insects. This wheatear has a loud song, more varied than most of its relatives and often including mimicry.

Etymology
The genus name Oenanthe is derived from the Ancient Greek oenos (οίνος) "wine" and anthos (ανθός) "flower". It refers to the northern wheatear's return to Greece in the spring just as the grapevines blossom. The specific leucopyga is Ancient Greek from leukos, "white", and puge, "rump". "Wheatear" is not derived from "wheat" or any sense of "ear", but is a 16th-century linguistic corruption of "white" and "arse", referring to the prominent white rump found in many species.

title: White-crowned wheatear


text:
Tanga, Tanzania

Tanga (Jiji la Tanga, in Swahili) is a historic city and the capital of Tanga Region. The city is the most northernly port city of Tanzania to the west of the Indian Ocean on Tanga Bay. The city has a population of 393,429 in 2022. Tanga is governed by the Tanga City Council. The city is also home to the Port of Tanga. The name Tanga means "sail" in Swahili. The city is also the capital of Tanga District.

Climate
Due to close proximity to the equator and the warm Indian Ocean, the city experiences tropical climatic conditions similar to all Tanzanian coastal cities. The city experiences hot and humid weather throughout much of the year and has a tropical wet and dry climate (Köppen: Aw). Annual rainfall is approximately 1,290 mm (51 in), and in a normal year there are two rainy seasons: "the long rains" in April and May and "the short rains" in November and December.

Economy
Major exports from the port of Tanga include sisal, coffee, tea, and cotton. Tanga is also an important railroad terminus, connecting much of the northern Tanzanian interior with the sea via the Tanzania Railways Corporation's Link Line and Central Line. Tanga is linked to the African Great Lakes region and the Tanzanian economic capital of Dar es Salaam. The city is served by Tanga Airport.The harbour and surrounding is the centre of life in Tanga. It has several markets in several neighbourhoods.Tanga Cement is one of the major industries.

Air connectivity
Tanga has a small airport and is currently served by only three regional airlines, providing scheduled services to Dar es Salaam, Pemba Island and Zanzibar. In 2014 the airport served less than 30,000 passengers. There are also a small number of private airstrips in the surrounding area around the city that facilitate the private estates and surrounding industries.

Road connectivity
Tanga city lies approximately 250 km from Chalinze on the A14 highway that runs from Chalinze to Mombasa. The town is 75 km away from Segera which is a junction linking the A14 and the B1. The B1 highway is a bypass that links Moshi and the northern corridor to Tanga.

Port of Tanga
The port is historically the oldest operating harbour in the nation and its roots date back to around the 6th century. The Port of Tanga is the second largest port in Tanzania and is a vital part to the city's initial development and economy. The port operates at 90% of its installed capacity and its main cargo is coal for the cement industry and is a new gateway for crude oil products. The ports authority has major plans to upgrade the port increase capacity and provide an alternative route for cargo flowing into the country.

Rail connectivity
Tanga is the starting point of the narrow gauge northern railway network that ends in Arusha. Construction of this line was started in the 19th century by the Germans. In 2018, the Government of Tanzania invested 5.7 billion Tanzanian Shillings to rehabilitate the line. As of July 2019, diesel powered cargo trains are leaving Tanga Railway Station again and passenger transport between Tanga and Arusha is set to start in September 2019.

Early history
The first communities that called Tanga home were the Digo peoples and the Swahili states of the 11th to 16th Centuries. However, the earliest documentation about Tanga comes from the Portuguese. During their disruption of the previous trading links Tanga settlement remained a small trading post for the colonists during their occupation of the East African coast for 200 years between 1500 and 1700 when they were ousted. The Sultanate of Oman battled the Portuguese and gained control of the settlement by mid-1700 along with Mombasa, Pemba Island and Kilwa Kisiwani. The town continued to act as a trading port for ivory and slaves under the sultan's rule. Tanga continued to be a prosperous trading hub for slaves with the Arab world up until 1873 when the European powers invaded and occupied thus abolishing the slave trade that was no longer serving the colonial powers.

Tanga under German East Africa
In the 19th Century, growing interests by Europeans for the Scramble for Africa brought the Germans to Tanga. The Germans bought the coastal strip of mainland Tanzania from the Sultan of Zanzibar in 1891. This takeover designated Tanga into a township and was the first establishment in German East Africa. The town became the centre of German colonial administration before the establishment of Dar es Salaam in the early 20th century.

Tanga was chosen in 1889 as a military post of German East Africa, and it became a district office in 1891. The town saw rapid expansion and planned growth under the German occupation. A tram line was built in the city for domestic transport and a port was also built for exports. In 1896 the construction of the Usambara Railway began and was extended to Moshi by 1912. Roads, bridges and the railway enabled industrial growth in the region and many buildings and bridges that are still in operation today in the town are from the German colonial period. The local economy was based mainly on the production of sisal, which had been brought to the colony several years earlier, and population in the area grew rapidly.

Tanga under British occupation
As the coastal town closest to British East Africa, Tanga was on the front line of the East African campaign at the beginning of World War I. On 4 November 1914 a landing by British and Empire forces was repelled in the Battle of Tanga. On 13 June 1916 the Royal Navy battleship HMS Vengeance (1899) and protected cruisers HMS Challenger (1902) and HMAS Pioneer bombarded Tanga. On 7 July the protected cruiser HMS Talbot (1895) and monitor HMS Severn (1914) entered Manza Bay and put troops ashore who occupied the town. After the War, Britain was given a League of Nations Mandate to prepare Tanganyika for independence and continued to develop Tanga in order to develop its agricultural potential, both to feed the population and so stave of the regular famines in the tetritory and for export. In 1919 Tanga was the country's fourth largest city, but at independence it was the second largest city after Dar es Salaam.

Post-independence
In the early stages of independence, the Port of Tanga continued to be a gateway for the export of sisal from the region. However, following the adopting of the Ujamaa policy, global prices in sisal dwindling, the production that served the city's factories closed and the city lost its main source of income. With the government controlling the agriculture trade and the depreciation in the world prices of sisal the port began to lose revenue.

Healthcare
Tanga city medical institutions include:
 * Bombo Regional Hospital
 * National Institute of Medical Research Centre, Tanga
 * Amani Biomedical Research Laboratory
 * Tanga AIDS Working Group

Tourist sites
Nearby tourist attractions include Amboni Caves, Galanos hot springs, Saadani national park, Toten Island, URITHI Tanga Museum, war graves and memorials, Tongoni Ruins, Ndumi Village defense works, Mwarongo sand beaches and protected coastal mangroves.

Sport
Tanga is represented in the Tanzanian Premier League by football clubs Coastal Union, JKT Mgambo, and African Sports (Wana Kimanumanu) from the 2015–2016 season.

Twin towns – sister cities
Tanga is twinned with:
 * 🇩🇪 Eckernförde, Germany (1963)
 * 🇫🇮 Kemi, Finland (2007)
 * 🇪🇭 Tifariti, Western Sahara
 * 🇺🇸 Toledo, United States (2001)

title: Tanga, Tanzania


text:
Gṛhastha

Gṛhastha (Sanskrit: गृहस्थ) literally means "being in and occupied with home, family" or "householder". It refers to the second phase of an individual's life in a four age-based stages of the Hindu asrama system. It follows celibacy (bachelor student) life stage, and embodies a married life, with the duties of maintaining a home, raising a family, educating one's children, and leading a family-centred and a dharmic social life.

This stage of Asrama is conceptually followed by Vānaprastha (forest dweller, retired ) and Sannyasa (renunciation). Combined with other three life stages, Hindu philosophy considers these stages as a facet of Dharma concept, something essential to completing the full development of a human being and fulfilling all the needs of the individual and society.

Ancient and medieval era texts of Hinduism consider Gṛhastha stage as the most important of all stages in sociological context, as human beings in this stage not only pursue a virtuous life, they produce food and wealth that sustains people in other stages of life, as well as the offspring that continues mankind. The householder stage is also considered in Indian philosophy as one where the most intense physical, procreational, emotional, occupational, social and material attachments exist in a human being's life.

In Indian traditions, Gṛhastha stage of life is a recommendation, but not a requirement. Any Brahmachari may, if they want, skip householder and retirement stage, go straight to Sannyasa stage of life, thereby renouncing worldly and materialistic pursuits and dedicating their lives to spiritual pursuits.

Etymology
The Sanskrit word grhastha (गृहस्थ) is a composite grha-stha of two root words grha (गृह) and stha (स्थ). Grha means "home, family, house", while sth means "devoted to, occupied with, being in". Gṛhastha means that which "being in and occupied with home, family" or simply "householder".

Discussion
Gṛhastha is part of the ancient Hindu concept called Chaturashrama, which identified four stages of a human life, with distinct differences based on natural human needs and drives, as well as how these stages integrated with fulfilling, joyful four goals of life called Purushartha - Dharma (piety, morality, duties), Artha (wealth, health, means of life), Kama (love, relationships, emotions) and Moksha (liberation, freedom, self-realization). Gṛhastha is considered to be the most intense of all four stages, where a man or woman pursues all four goals of life, with greater emphasis on first three - Dharma, Artha and Kama. In contrast, Sannyasa is the stage where the individual renounces Artha and Kama, and pursues Moksha with a single minded pursuit.

The stage "Gṛhastha" is preceded by Brahmacharya (student) stage of life, and followed by Vanaprastha (retirement, forest dweller, still an advisor to the next generation) stage. In ancient texts, Gṛhastha stage of life is said to extend from the age of about 25 to about 50.

A man or woman entered the Gṛhastha stage after a Hindu wedding [sacred ceremony]. They would build a home, raise a family, earn wealth, enjoy worldly life and give donations to needy people, poor families, orphans, etc... They also have to follow the 5 great rituals ( Pancha Maha Yajnas) as follow:

 * 1) Brahma yajna~ Study of vedas, meditation, prayers
 * 2) Deva yajna~ Offering of clarified butter (ghee) in fire
 * 3) Pitr yajna~ Care of parents, aged and old people
 * 4) Bhuta yajna~ Service to poor, needy, handicapped and animals
 * 5) Atithi yajna~ Hospitality to guest, saints, sages. It is said "Guest is God." We must take good care of our guest to get good deeds in our life.

Literature
The Chandogya Upanishad and Vedānta Sūtras discuss all four stages of life - student, householder, retired/hermit and ascetic. However they hold Gṛhastha āśrama as the highest because, explains verse III.4.48, not only does the householder performs the duties recommended for all four asramas, they have to produce food and goods on which people in other ashramas survive. The shared duties of four ashramas are - tenderness for all living creatures (ahimsa), self-restraints, and others.

Some chapters of the Upanishads, for example hymn 4.4.22 of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, specify only three stages of human life – Brahmacharya, Gṛhastha and Vanaprastha. They make no mention of gender, class restrictions on these stages of life. All three stages are recommended as path to Brahman (inner Self, Soul). In contrast, later texts specify four stages of human life.

Grihastha ashrama, declares Gautama Dharmasutra in verses 3.2 and 3.3, is the foundation of all the ashramas, and essential to the existence and continuation of society because the other three ashramas do not produce offspring.
 * Dharmasutras and Dharmasmritis

Manusmriti, similarly states in Sections VI.87 through VI.90, that it is the householders who feed all those in other three stages of life, and those who seek spiritual pursuits live on, attain fulfillment because of those who accept and prosper in Gṛhastha ashrama. Manusmriti uses the concept of ashrama broadly, and in verses III.77 to III.80, declares Gṛhastha stage as noble, excellent and that "just like all beings need air to survive, so do all beings take life from the Gṛhastha Āśrama because of the food they produce and knowledge they apply".

In Sections IV.1 through IV.6, Manusmriti states a Brahmana, after being twice-born and completing his studies with his teacher, should marry and live in his house. He must seek a means of living that causes no injury or least possible injury to all living beings, except in times of distress. For this householder stage, the text declares that the Brahmana (graduate from Brahmacharya) should accumulate property by ethically pursuing his varna's (class) occupation. Manusmriti lists five appropriate sources of income or means for survival for the educated Brahmana - Ṛta (ऋत, lawful gleaning and gathering, proper natural work ), Amrta (अमृत, accepting gifts and charity), Mrta (मृत, begging), Pramrta (प्रमृत, agriculture, tillage) and Satyanrta (सत्यानृत, trade, commerce, money lending). The text disapproves of one means of survival for the householder - Shvavritti (श्ववृत्ति, dog-like subsistence, servitude, slavery ).

The Vishnu Purana in Book 3 Chapter IX, states
 * Puranas

"When the scriptural studies appropriate to the student have been completed, and he has received blessings of his Guru, let him enter into the order of the Gṛhastha (householder). Let him pursue and obtain, by ethical ways, home, wife, and wealth, discharge to the best of his ability the duties of his life's stage. He should satisfy the soul of his ancestors with funeral cakes; the gods with oblations; guests with hospitality; the sages with holy study; the progenitors of mankind with progeny; the spirits with reverence; and all the world with words of truth."

The Indian Epics have extensive debates on Gṛhastha stage of life, offering a contrasting spectrum of views on its merits and nature. An illustrative recommended guidelines for conduct in householder stage of life is stated in Book 1, the Adi Parva of the Mahabharata, as follows,
 * Epics

"It hath been said in the oldest Upanishad that a Grihastha (householder), acquiring wealth by honest means, should perform sacrifices; he should always give something in charity, should perform the rites of hospitality unto all arriving at his abode, and should never use anything without giving a portion thereof to others. He should abstain from all vicious acts, should never inflict pain on any creature. It is then only that he can achieve success."

title: Gṛhastha


text: User:AceMyth

title: User:AceMyth


text:
Black wheatear

The black wheatear (Oenanthe leucura) is a wheatear, a small passerine bird in the Old World flycatcher family Muscicapidae. It is found in the Iberian Peninsula and western North Africa.

Taxonomy
The black wheatear was formally described in 1789 by the German naturalist Johann Friedrich Gmelin in his revised and expanded edition of Carl Linnaeus's Systema Naturae. He placed it with the thrushes in the genus Turdus, coined the binomial name Turdus leucurus and specified the locality as Gibraltar. The specific epithet is from Ancient Greek leukouros meaning "white-tailed". Gmelin based his account on the "White-tailed thrush" that had been described and illustrated in 1783 by the English ornithologist John Latham in his multi-volume work A General Synopsis of Birds. Latham had examined a specimen in the Leverian Museum in London. The black wheatear is now placed in the genus Oenanthe that was introduced in 1816 by the French ornithologist Louis Pierre Vieillot.

Two subspecies are recognised:
 * O. l. leucura (Gmelin, JF, 1789) – Portugal, Spain and south France
 * O. l. riggenbachi (Hartert, EJO, 1909) – northwest Africa

Description
This large 16–18 cm long wheatear. The male of this species is all black except a white rump and mainly white tail. The female is similar, but dark brown rather than black. It has a loud thrush-like song.

The similar white-crowned wheatear (Oenanthe leucopyga) also breeds in the African part of the black wheatear's range, but the black wheatear has a black inverted "T" on its white tail, whereas white-crowned has only a black centre to its tail. The black wheatear never has a white crown, but young white-crowned wheatears also lack this feature.

Behaviour
It breeds on cliffs and rocky slopes in western north Africa and Iberia. It no longer breeds in southern France. It is largely resident and nests in crevices in rocks laying 3-6 eggs. The food of this wheatear is mainly insects.

title: Black wheatear


text:
Haircut (finance)

In finance, a haircut is the difference between the current market value of an asset and the value ascribed to that asset for purposes of calculating regulatory capital or loan collateral. The amount of the haircut reflects the perceived risk of the asset falling in value in an immediate cash sale or liquidation. The larger the risk or volatility of the asset price, the larger the haircut.

For example, United States Treasury bills, which are relatively safe and highly liquid assets, have little or no haircut, whereas more volatile or less marketable assets might have haircuts as high as 50%.

Lower haircuts allow for more leverage. Haircut plays an important role in many kinds of trades, such as repurchase agreements (referred to in debt-instrument finance as "repo" but not to be confused with the concept of repossession denoted by that term in consumer finance) and reverse repurchase agreements ("reverse repo" in debt-instrument finance).

In mass media, as well as in economics texts,  especially after the financial crisis of 2007–2008, the term "haircut" has been used mostly to denote a reduction of the amount that will be repaid to creditors, or, in other words, a reduction in the face value of a troubled borrower's debts,  as in "to take a haircut": to accept or receive less than is owed. In 2012, world media was reporting on the "biggest debt-restructuring deal in history", which included the "very large haircut" of some "70 percent of par value" of Greek state bonds, in NPV terms.

SEC net capital rule
The financial term "haircut" began, and continues to be used, as a reference to valuation discounts applied under the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission's net capital rule. The net capital rule was adopted to provide safeguards for public investors by setting standards of financial responsibility to be met by broker-dealers and requires a broker-dealer to have at all times sufficient liquid assets to cover its current indebtedness. The SEC explained the role of haircuts in calculating net capital in 1967:

"In computing 'net capital,' the rule requires deductions from 'net worth' of certain specified percentages of the market values of marketable securities and future commodity contracts, long and short, in the capital and proprietary accounts of the broker or dealer, and in the 'accounts of partners.' (These deductions are generally referred to in the industry as 'haircuts.') . . . The purpose of these deductions from 'net worth,' is to provide a margin of safety against losses incurred by a broker or dealer as a result of market fluctuations in the prices of such securities or future commodity contracts."

"Haircut" since has been extended to a number of other financial contexts, whenever it is desirable to show that some securities (typically debt securities) are being valued for some purpose at a discount.

ECB use of haircuts
The European Central Bank applies a haircut to all securities offered as collateral. The size of the haircut depends on the riskiness and liquidity of the security offered as collateral.

LTCM and haircut fees
The hedge fund Long Term Capital Management (LTCM) saw spectacular losses that led to its dissolution in 1998. It had previously been able to trade with little collateral on positions that were considered safe by its lenders.

As used for exchange-traded products
When used in the context of exchange traded products such as stocks, options, or futures, haircut is used interchangeably with the term margin. It is the amount of capital required by a broker to maintain the positions currently in a trading account. If haircut exceeds the account's capital, the broker can either require additional capital (e.g., margin call), or liquidate positions until the haircut no longer exceeds available capital.

In sovereign debt write-downs
During the Eurozone crisis, and particularly in the context of the Greek financial crisis, the term "haircut" acquired more specifically the meaning of state-debt holders receiving less than par. It's "the market's euphemism for wiping out a large portion of the debt owed to the creditors". The haircut agreed to by Greek-state debt holders was deemed "voluntary" by the banks' chief negotiator Charles Dallara, although, in order to convince domestic bond holders, the Greek government "made it clear that holdouts would not receive a sweeter deal", while it also declared that if the haircut was not completed, the Greek state would not be able to "further service its debt".

title: Haircut (finance)


text:
Yangshuo County

Yangshuo County is a county under the jurisdiction of Guilin City, in the northeast of Guangxi, China. Its seat is located in Yangshuo Town. Surrounded by karst peaks and bordered on one side by the Li River, it is served by bus and by boat from nearby Guilin.

History

In the 1980s, the county became popular with foreign visitors engaging in backpacker tourism, and organized tours began by the late 1990s. At the time, domestic tourists represented only a small fraction of the county's visitors, but they outnumbered foreign tourists by 2005. Today, the county is a resort destination for both domestic and foreign travelers.

The history of West Street dates back over 1,400 years ago. Since the street is popular with locals and foreigners alike, signs are written in both Chinese and English. Because of the relatively high number of foreign visitors, many locals speak some English, unlike most Chinese towns of its size.

The Yangshuo region has numerous locations for climbing, and they are accessible by bicycle, public bus, or taxi van. The most famous of these crags is Moon Hill, which has several lines graded 5.13 in the Yosemite scale. Other crags of note include Low Mountain, Twin Gates, Baby Frog, the Egg, Bamboo Grove, and Wine Bottle Cliff.

Administrative divisions
Yangshuo County is divided into 6 towns and 3 townships:
 * Towns
 * Yangshuo
 * Baisha
 * Fuli
 * Xingping
 * Putao
 * Gaotian

 * Townships
 * Jinbao
 * Puyi
 * Yangdi

Landmarks

 * Li River
 * Moon Hill
 * Yulong River
 * Silver Cave

Sister cities
Yangshuo has city partnerships with the following cities and/or regions:
 * Morehead, Kentucky, United States (1994)
 * Rapid City, South Dakota, United States (2000)
 * Bled, Upper Carniola, Slovenia (2009)
 * Annecy-le-Vieux, Haute Savoie, France (2011)

title: Yangshuo County


text:
Jordan decomposition

In mathematics, Jordan decomposition may refer to

 * Hahn decomposition theorem, and the Jordan decomposition of a measure
 * Jordan normal form of a matrix
 * Jordan–Chevalley decomposition of a matrix
 * Deligne–Lusztig theory, and its Jordan decomposition of a character of a finite group of Lie type
 * The Jordan–Hölder theorem, about decompositions of finite groups.

title: Jordan decomposition


text:
Brahmacharya

Brahmacharya (Devanagari: ब्रह्मचर्य) is a concept within Indian religions that literally means "conduct consistent with Brahma" or "on the path of Brahma". Brahmacharya, a discipline of controlling the senses, is seen as a way to liberation. Though sexual restraint is a part of brahmacharya, brahmacharya encompasses all striving toward a passionless state.

In one context, brahmacharya is the first of four ashrama (age-based stages) of a human life. The brahmacharya (bachelor student) stage of life – from childhood up to twenty-five years of age – was focused on education and included the practice of celibacy. In this context, it connotes chastity during the student stage of life for the purposes of learning from a guru (teacher), and during later stages of life for the purposes of attaining spiritual liberation (Sanskrit: moksha).

In the Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist monastic traditions, brahmacharya implies, among other things, the mandatory renunciation of sex and marriage. It is considered necessary for a monk's spiritual practice. Western notions of the religious life as practiced in monastic settings mirror these characteristics.

Etymology
The word stems from two Sanskrit roots:
 * 1) (Devanagari: ब्रह्म) meaning one's own Self in non-dual schools or a distinct entity in dualistic schools, ultimate unchanging reality, absolute consciousness, much discussed in the Upanishads.
 * 2) (चर्य), which means activity, behaviour, conduct.

Hence, roughly means "to stay true to one's Self or one own " or "on the path of n".

In ancient and medieval era Indian texts, the term is a concept with a more complex meaning, indicating a lifestyle conducive to the pursuit of sacred knowledge and spiritual liberation. is a means, not an end. It usually includes cleanliness,, simple living, studies, meditation, and voluntary restraints on certain foods (eating only Sattvic food), intoxicants, and on sexual behavior (both sex and masturbation, in some schools of thought).

One who practices brahmacarya is known as a brahmacārī or brahmacārinī. Various (आश्रम, ) and  (मठ, ) of Hinduism also call their initiates by these terms.

In Hinduism
Brahmacharya represents the highest level of self-control, an intense mental and spiritual discipline of controlling the senses to attain liberation. It encompasses renouncing desires for temporary worldly pleasures to focus one's self toward religious goals.

In the Vedas
The Vedas discuss, both in the context of lifestyle and as a stage of one's life. Rig Veda, for example, in Mandala 10, Sukta 136, mentions knowledge seekers as those (long-haired) and with soil-colored clothes (yellow, orange, saffron) engaged in the affairs of  (mind, meditation). Rig Veda, however, refers to these people as and. The Atharva Veda, completed by about, has more explicit discussion of , in Book XI, Chapter 5. This chapter of Atharva Veda describes as that which leads to one's second birth (mind, Self-awareness), with Hymn 11.5.3 painting a symbolic picture that when a teacher accepts a, the student becomes his embryo.

The concept and practice of is found extensively among the older strata of the Mukhya Upanishads in Hinduism. The text Chandogya Upanishad describes, in Book 8, activities and lifestyle that is :

"Now what people call (sacrifice) is really, for only by means of does the knower attain that world (of Brahman). And what people call  (worship) is really, for only worshipping by means of  does one attain the Atman (the liberated Self). Now, what people call the  (sacrificial session) is really , for only by means of  does one obtain one's salvation from  (Being). And what people call the  (vow of silence) is really  for only through  does one understand the Atman and then meditate. Now, what people call a  (vow of fasting) is really , for this Atman never perishes which one attains by means of . And what people call the  (life of a hermit) is really , for the world of Brahman belongs to those who by means of  attain the seas Ara and Nya in the world of Brahman. For them there is freedom in all the worlds."

- Chandogya Upanishad

A hymn in another early Upanishad, the Mundaka Upanishad in Book 3, Chapter 1, similarly states,

"सत्येन लभ्यस्तपसा ह्येष आत्मा सम्यग्ज्ञानेन ब्रह्मचर्येण नित्यम् ।

Through continuous pursuit of (truthfulness), (perseverance, austerity),  (correct knowledge), and, one attains  (the Self)."

- Mundaka Upanishad

The Vedas and early Upanishadic texts of Hinduism in their discussion of, make no mention of the age of the student at the start of , nor any restraint on sexual activity. However, there is a clear general consensus in both specific and various Upanishads (such as the Shandilya Upanishad) as well as Hindu (such as the Manusmriti) that the male "student", referred to as the "" should abstain from the "release of semen." This rule may or may not apply to the guru. The verses 11.5.4.16 and 11.5.4.17 of the Satpatha Brahamana present two different viewpoints on the sexual activity, of the guru during the, i.e., the teacher of the "student ", one against and one as a choice. Similarly, in verse 11.5.4.18, the Satapatha Brahmana presents contrasting viewpoints on an eating restraint (regarding honey) for the student.

As a virtue
is traditionally regarded as one of the five in Yoga, as declared in verse 2.30 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. It is a form of self-restraint regarded as a virtue, and an observance recommended in a manner that depends on an individual's context. For a married practitioner, it means marital fidelity (not cheating on one's spouse); for a single person, it means celibacy. Patanjali in verse 2.38 states that the virtue of brahmacharya leads to the profit of (वीर्य). This Sanskrit word,, has been variously translated as virility and, by Vyasa, as strength and capacity. Vyasa explains that this virtue promotes other good qualities.

The Shandilya Upanishad includes as one of ten  in Chapter 1, defining it as "refraining from sexual intercourse in all places and in all states in mind, speech, or body" while Linga Purana in chapter 1.8 states that in case of householders, indulgence in sexual intercourse with their own wives and abstention from it with other women mentally, physically and verbally should be understood as brahmacharya as well.

Other ancient and medieval era texts of Hinduism describe the fruits of this virtue differently. For example, Pada Chandrika, Raja Marttanda, Sutrartha Bodhini, Mani Prabha, and Yoga Sudhakara each state that must be understood as the voluntary restraint of power. Chandogya Upanishad in verses of chapter 8.5 extols as a sacrament and sacrifice which, once perfected, leads to realization of the Self (Ātman (Hinduism)), and thereafter becomes the habit of experiencing the Self in others and everything. Tattva Vaisharadi and Yoga Sarasangraha assert that leads to an increase in  (power of knowledge) and  (power of action).

The great epic Mahabharata describes the objective of as knowledge of Brahman (Book Five, Udyoga Parva, the Book of Effort). leads one to union with the Supreme Self (Chapter 43). By subduing desire, the practice of self-restraint enables the student to learn, pay attention in thought, word, and deed to the (teacher), and discover the truth embodied in the Vedas and Upanishads. According to the epic, the practice of studying and learning requires the "aid of time," as well as personal effort, ability, discussion, and practice, all of which are helped by virtue of. A should do useful work, and the earnings he obtains should be given away as  ("fee," "gift of thanks") to the guru. The epic declares that is one of twelve virtues, an essential part of  in yoga and the path of perfecting perseverance and the pursuit of knowledge.

In Jainism
is one of the five major vows prescribed for the (layman) and for ascetics in Jainism. For those Jains who adopt the path of monks, celibacy in action, words, and thoughts is expected. For lay Jains who are married, the virtue of requires remaining sexually faithful to one's chosen partner. For lay Jains who are unmarried, chaste living requires Jains to avoid sex before marriage. (Supreme Celibacy) is one of the ten excellencies of a Jain monk. is mentioned as one of the (ten virtues) in ancient Jain texts like Tattvartha Sutra, Sarvārthasiddhi and Puruşārthasiddhyupāya.

Among Sramanic traditions
Among the Sramanic traditions (Buddhism, Jainism, Ājīvika, and Charvaka schools), is the term used for a self-imposed practice of celibacy that is generally considered a prerequisite for spiritual practice. The fourth of the five great vows of Jain monks, for example, is the vow of celibacy, which in this case means total abstinence from the sensual pleasure of all five senses, including the avoidance of sexual thoughts and desires. The yogin who is firmly grounded in the virtue of is said to gain great vitality.

As Asrama stage of life
in Hinduism literally means "conduct consistent with Brahman" or "on the path of Brahman".

Historically referred to a stage of life  within the Vedic ashram system. Ancient Hindu culture divided the human lifespan into four stages:, , , and. occupies the first 20–25 years of life, roughly corresponding to adolescence. Upon the child's, the young person would begin a life of study in the Gurukula (the household of the Guru) dedicated to learning all aspects of that is the "principles of righteous living". comprised personal responsibilities towards himself, family, society, humanity, and God which included the environment, earth, and nature. This educational period started when the child was five to eight years old and lasted until the age of 14 to 20 years. During this stage of life, the traditional vedic sciences and various are studied along with the religious texts contained within the Vedas and Upanishads. This stage of life was characterized by the practice of celibacy. The purpose of brahmacharya in this stage is to get rid of passions, which interfere with learning.

During this stage of life, the chastity is for the purposes of learning from a guru (teacher), and during later stages of life, it is for the purposes of attaining spiritual liberation. (Sanskrit: ).

The Vedas and Upanishads do not restrict the student stage of life to males. Atharva Veda, for example, states
 * Brahmacharya for girls

"ब्रह्मचर्येण कन्या युवानं विन्दते पतिम्

A youthful (कन्या, girl) who graduates from, obtains a suitable husband."

- Atharva Veda

Gonda states that there were no age restrictions for the start of in ancient India. Not only young men, but older people resorted to the student stage of life, and sought teachers who were authoritative in certain subjects. The Chandogya Upanishad, in Section 5.11, describes "wealthy and learned householders" becoming (students) with Rishi Kaikeya, to gain knowledge about Atman (inner Self) and Brahman (Ultimate Reality).
 * No age restrictions

title: Brahmacharya


text:
Lindi

Lindi is a historic beach town in southern Tanzania. It serves as the regional hub of the country's least populated region, the Lindi Region, after which the area is named. Situated in southeast Tanzania, the town is situated at the far end of Lindi Bay on the Indian Ocean. The settlement is situated 105 km (65 mi) in the north of Mtwara, Tanzania's southernmost coastal town, and 450 km (280 km) in the south of Dar es Salaam.

The municipality of Lindi includes the town. Tanzania's national historic site, Lindi Historic Town, is located in Lindi. 20 kilometers (12 miles) northeast of the city is the Lindi Airport.

History
Lindi was founded in the 11th century. There is no record of a previous name of the Swahili town. In the 17th century, the town was renamed by the Omani Arab colonizers as Lindi meaning "deep channel". The Omanis dominated local people and used the location as a port to sell and transport ivory and slaves to the global market.

With the coming of the German occupation in the 19th century, and later on the British occupation after World War I, the town was the administrative capital of the southern province until 1952 when it was moved to Mtwara City due to its favorable harbor potential in Lindi Bay. In 1971, ten years after independence, the Nyerere administration made Lindi the regional seat for Lindi Region. However, in the following year of 1972, due to a socialist policy, urban councils were abolished in favor of rural development, negatively affecting the economy of the town. However, in 1978, urban councils were reintroduced.

Economy
The main economic activities are fishing, salt production, and the farming of coconut, cashew nuts, and roselles. The 2012 national census reported the town to have a population of 78,841.

Geography
Lindi is located at the mouth of the Lukuledi River. Located on Lindi Bay, its port facilities are still rudimentary, allowing one or two small cargo and passenger boats at a time, and ocean-going ships cannot be accommodated. The region was once an important area for sisal-producing plantations, especially in Kikwetu, the Lindi airstrip, which lies 25 kilometers north of the town. Around 2012, Lindi was finally linked to Dar es Salaam by a continuous tarmac road, making Lindi accessible throughout the rainy season. An older tarmac road connects Lindi to Mtwara City, passing through Mikindani, an important historic Swahili settlement in Mtwara Region. The Rondo Forest Reserve is an important site of biodiversity which is located at the Rondo Plateau in the southern Lindi Region. Part of a Coastal Forest mosaic, the Rondo Plateau rises sharply from sea level to about 885 m and therefore features a unique microclimate.

title: Lindi


text:
Ashram

An ashram (आश्रम, ) is a spiritual hermitage or a monastery in Indian religions.

Etymology
The Sanskrit noun is a thematic nominal derivative from the root   'toil' (< PIE *ḱremh2,  śramaṇa) with the prefix  'towards.' An ashram is a place where one strives towards a goal in a disciplined manner. Such a goal could be ascetic, spiritual, yogic or any other.

Overview

An ashram would traditionally, but not necessarily in contemporary times, be located far from human habitation, in forests or mountainous regions, amidst refreshing natural surroundings conducive to spiritual instruction and meditation. The residents of an ashram regularly performed spiritual and physical exercises, such as the various forms of yoga. Other sacrifices and penances, such as yajnas, were also performed. Many ashrams also served as gurukulas, residential schools for children under the guru-shishya tradition.

Sometimes, the goal of a pilgrimage to the ashram was not tranquility, but instruction in some art, especially warfare. In the Ramayana, the princes of ancient Ayodhya, Rama, and Lakshmana, go to Vishvamitra's ashram to protect his yajnas from being defiled by emissary-demons of Ravana. After they prove their mettle, the princes receive martial instruction from the sage, especially in the use of divine weapons. In the Mahabharata, Krishna, in his youth, goes to the ashram of Sandipani to gain knowledge of both intellectual and spiritual matters.

Schools in Maharashtra
Boarding schools, especially in the tribal areas of Maharashtra and elsewhere in India, are called ashram shala or ashram schools. One such school is the Lok Biradari Prakalp Ashram Shala.

In the West
A number of ashrams have been established outside India. Typically, these ashrams are connected to Indian lineages, focus on imparting Yoga-related teachings, often in residential retreats, and are headed by spiritual teachers (Indians or Western).

title: Ashram


text:
Talk:Ineffability

This?
Regarding this quote "# A square with 3 sides, the pre-big bang universe, or any other illogical proposition" could you put a source for why a pre-big bang universe is illogical? I really want to understand that because most of the explanations about a pre-big bang universe are running away from the question or saying it doesn't matter. I want to know why a pre-big bang universe is on the same level of a square with 3 sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.222.188 (talk) 12:34, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Taboo and unspeakable
Why should anything that is not possible to explain be taboo, not only that but something that cannot be described cannot be taboo if there is no way to discribe it. How would anyone know what was taboo if they have no idea what your talking about? I can understand Ineffability be taboo 'or' impossible to explain, but not 'and'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.134.84 (talk) 17:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Quotes
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

I really want to follow this up with "If a person can't communicate, the very least he can do is to shut up." - Tom Lehrer; but I don't suppose it would actually be relevant to the article. Sigh.

Ajd 07:22, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This looks like a candidate for transwiki-ing.... - Orborde 04:15, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It can be expanded into why certain things are ineffable - ineffability in various cultures etc. Secretlondon 15:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

A friend of mine knew Alan Watts very well. He mentioned one of his sayings: "I'm in the business of effing the ineffable" which I think bears inclusion. Whether this is verifiable, ie. in one of his books or recordings, is something I am not willing to spend months on. Can this go in Wiki otherwise? [unsigned]

Tom Lehrer's "If a person can't communicate, the very least he can do is to shut up" may be at least in part a parodic paraphrase of Wittgenstein's "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent", but that's hardly an argument for its inclusion here. The Lehrer quote sheds no light on ineffability, and belongs in a list of parodies, not this article. MIchael 16:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing ineffable in "Logan's Run" can someone elaborate on the connection or delete that reference? Jim Davis 98.248.214.70 (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Voldemort and other villians from fiction.
I object to the idea that "Voldemort" in the Harry Potter books is ineffable. If people in the story *would* say the word, it would identify precisely what is said. Thus, there is nothing ineffable about it. Are the authors of this wiki word suggesting that the N-word is ineffable? or the F-word? I think that the societal pressure to make words unsaid is a crazy business that the Harry Potter books lampoon. --Enkido 20:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted a list of so-called ineffable villians' names from fiction. In order to hype the scariness and power of their villians, some sci fi authors make characters' names unsaid. This is not the same as a word being truly ineffable, where naming something/someone makes knowing what's being talked about less understandable. [A name for God may be ineffable if it believed to lead us away from understanding the infinite nature of God, whereas naming Voldemort is helpful in identifying the villian.] --Enkido 16:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Infinity qualifies as ineffable, so, logically, any concept that incorporates it as part of its definition must also be ineffable. However, the usage of the term God is not in the above manner; the section heading justifies ineffability through reverence of greatness, and by Orthodox Jewish tradition the utterance of the name is a taboo (along with some variations of its expression percieved to be insulting). For God to be included, it must be under the appropriate heading pertaining to that interpretation and specified properly. If left uncontested, I will modify the article in this way.Aaagmnr (talk) 03:06, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

New sections for ineffable
Currently, the main section of this article is "Things said to be ineffable." That is not a proper standard for inclusion on a list of what is ineffable. We should be trying to identify that which is truly ineffable. Or, at least, there should be two sections, each devoted to the separate meanings given the word. This, the two-part definition from dictionary.com: 1. incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible: ineffable joy. 2. not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name of the deity. In either case, I do not think that fictional villians or superstitious non-named words would qualify. "Macbeth" not being spoken backstage in theatres is not a matter of ineffability, imho. --Enkido 16:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Things incapable of being expressed are incapable of being expressed because that's how language works. You can not experience another person's sensations, so they can't properly label them. You can only understand something you can perceive or deduct from previous sensations -- words are labels, not something magical. How those labels are resolved depends on the (listening) individual's experience -- the word "yellow" only means something to someone who learned to use the word as a label for something. It's basic linguistics / media theory. This whole article is too mysticistic for my taste -- 62.143.100.92 14:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Ideas that are ineffable are often also mystical. I don't think the article is overally mystical, it's just describing mystical ideas, as it should. Hugh2323 (talk) 05:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

ineffable villains.
The list of ineffable villains has been removed, and while it is often an over-used ploy, one of them does fit the description. Yawgmoth from Magic: The Gathering is a 'being' that could be said to be ineffible. "I exist at all time, yet I exist at no time." He cannot be fully comprehended as a being, although he was once a human. He is also multiple entities, that are all a collective conscious that uses "we" to describe actions to itself. I am having a hard time describing him, because, you guessed it. It is my humble oppinion that Yawgmoth could be added to the list of things that are ineffable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.109.253.240 (talk) 05:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Move "Things said to be unutterable because of fear" to "Taboo"?
These don't appear to me to be examples of ineffability.Apeman 05:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but the list has the useful function of uncluttering the more serious parts of the article. It seems that people will always continue to add such examples, and this makes it fairly harmless. PJTraill 14:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

love
is that too subjective for wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.237.222 (talk) 14:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that is part of what makes it an ineffable thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.187.46 (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I have since edited that part.

The catrices of Spann
What the hell is a catrice of Spann? Theoryofevrythng (talk) 01:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

 * It's something I'm removing. WDavis1911 (talk) 16:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

"things too disastrous to be spoken aloud" section
This section should either be deleted or seriously revised. The first two entries are from specific works of popular fiction, and thus seem to be out of place amidst the rest of the article about serious philosophy and major religions, and the other says it is "supposedly" the case, but does not specify any sources for the claim despite obviously not being a belief held by most people or religions.

Besides, the beginning of the section specifies that it is actually not ineffable anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.148.180.12 (talk) 04:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Get rid of "Things said to be ineffable"
I think this section just lends itself to be super subjective, and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Zaya (talk) 18:36, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ineffability


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Vashisht

Vashisht or Vashistha was an ancient Indian sage (rishi) and an author of the Rigveda of Hinduism.

It may also refer to:
 * Vashisht, Himachal Pradesh, a village in Kullu district, Himachal Pradesh, India

People with the name Vashisht

 * Vashishtha Bhargava, Indian judge
 * Vasishta N. Simha, Indian actor
 * Vashishtha Narayan Singh (1946–2019), Indian academic
 * Vashishth Tripathi, Indian professor
 * Harsh Vashisht, Indian actor
 * Mita Vashisht (born 1967), Indian actress
 * Shivank Vashisht (born 1995), Indian cricketer
 * Siddharth Vashisht (born 1977, known as Manu Sharma), Indian convicted murderer
 * Tushar Vashisht, Indian entrepreneur, co-founder and CEO of consumer health app HealthifyMe
 * Vinod Vashisht, Indian Army general, director general of the National Cadet Corps until 2017

title: Vashisht