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Talk:Lists of extinct languages

Untitled
In working on this page, I noted that most of the language links are dead. I will unlink them until they have at least stubs on them. --Merovingian 14:56, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

Sanskrit, Pali, Prakrit
I think it's fairly crazy to call Sanskrit "dead" when there are Wikipedia entries in the language. Similarly, Pali and Prakrit are still in use in official and religious ceremonies in South and South East Asia; just as the Wikipedia entry on Latin argued that Latin isn't quite "dead", Pali and Prakrit aren't quite dead in the sense that they still are used. As such, their inclusion here distracts the reader from other more worthy entries; the other languages are truly dead, in that they not used at all.

 * What happened to the others? Asia, Europe, Australia - has somebody deleted all this stuff?

Aboriginal Languages of Australia should certainly be noted in this web site and here is a link that treats the extinction and near extinction of such languages; http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/units/ling210-901/phonology/aboriginal/

Damin (Australia, conlang)
Probably shouldn't be added, but I thought I would mention it for sake of completenes. "Damin was a secret language spoken only by initiated men on three islands in the Gulf of Carpentaria, south of New Guinea. It has many remarkable qualities; for example, it is the only non-African language to use clicks as part of its regular phonemic inventory. It seems pretty clear that Damin was an invented language, and a cleverly built one, but unfortunately it has become extinct."

http://www.rickharrison.com/language/damin.html

 * Nice link! Damin is described in detail in the following article:

 * Hale, Ken; Krauss, Michael; Watahomigie, Lucille J.; Yamamoto, Akira Y.; Craig, Colette; Jeanne, LaVerne M. et al. (1992). Endangered languages. Language, 68 (1), 1-42.

 * Peace — ishwar  (S PEAK )  08:03, 2005 Apr 9 (UTC)

Discussion
The factual accuracy of the section on Greece, which currently excludes Ancient Greek as an extinct language, is disputed. The discussion of this issue follows. --Angr/undefined 5 July 2005 09:03 (UTC)

''Of course Ancient Greek has a surviving descendant. So does Latin. That's irrelevant to the question of whether it's extinct or not. If you want to propose that "List of extinct languages" be restricted only to languages without surviving descendants, please discuss this idea on Talk first.''

I'm currenctly working on the articles of the Greek language, you can see my contributions at Modern Greek, Ancient Greek, Koine Greek and many others. There's a huge difference between Latin and the Romance languages with Ancient Greek and Modern Greek. If you regard Ancient Greek as separate language which is lost, then the term "extinct languages" becomes moot. Greek is regarded today (along with Chinese) as one of the best preserved ancient languages in the world, and this has to do a lot with the histories of both nations. First of all Modern Greek is closer to Mycenaean Greek more than modern English to Anglo-Saxonic, so you can't make a comparison between the two. In other words, Modern Greek is not just a modern language which was baptised "Greek" (something that happens), it is in fact a stage in the Greek language. No language remains static, especially not in 2500 years, this is why every surviving language has its historical stages. This is not something that I'm coming up with, it's actually something that linguists say. Ancient Greek as a term, comprises a vast number of dialects, and is not referring to a specific common language which one day got extinct. The first common Greek dialect which is spoken since the 4th c. BC and is called Koine Greek, it is almost intelligible with Modern Greek. This is not at all the case with Latin and ancient Germanic. I'm not propose that this article should be restricted only to languages without surviving descendants, I'm saying that your terminology of "surviving descendant" does not apply to Greek. Modern Greek is not just a "surviving descendant" to some lost language called Greek, it is actually part of the Greek language. I repeat that I'm not expecting you to take my word for it, I'm only stating you what the academics say. Miskin 4 July 2005 19:09 (UTC)

 * Chinese is one of the worst-preserved languages in the world, actually. Even English is arguably more like Old English than Mandarin is like Tang-dynasty Chinese.  Your claims about Greek's mutual intelligibility with Ancient Greek seriously contradict those I'm familiar with, which state that even Dhimotiki and Katharevousa are not mutually intelligible; care to cite some sources? - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 19:39 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on Chinese so it's not something I'm willing to refute. As for Modern Greek, I said it's almost intelligible to Koine Greek. Koine Greek is indeed a dialect of ancient Greek, in the sense that it was spoken since the 4th c. BC, but linguistically it's categorised as a separate stage of the Greek language called Hellenistic Greek or Post-Classic Greek. Ancient Greek is normally a group of dialects, but the default in Classics is Attic. Attic is not perfectly intelligible with Modern Greek but it's not unintelligible either. About the intelligibility of Demotic Greek and Kathareuousa, I'll just let you know that Kathareuousa was the official language of the state until 1976. This means that 'all state documents (including school material) were written in this form of speech, so you can make your own conclusion regarding what you're heard. As for the intelligibility of Modern vs Ancient Koine Greek, I would urge you to have your local Greek restaurant owner translate a random text of the New Testament. Thus you'll get your answer.

Sample Sources:

 * L. Roussel, Grammaire descriptive du romeique litteraire (Paris 1922)
 * M. Perides, The Greek language and its contemporary form (Athens 1959)
 * A. Mirambel, La langue grecque moderne - Description et analyse (Paris 1950)
 * da Somavera, Treasures of the Frankish and Romaic language (Paris 1709)
 * N.P.Andriotes, Great dictionary of the Greek language (Athens 1949-1950)
 * K. Krumbacher, The problem of the modern Greek literary language (1902)
 * V. Rotolo, A. Korais and the linguistic question in Greece (Palermo 1965)

And the list can go on and on. In fact I've never come across a linguistic source which characterised Ancient Greek a dead language. This is why I initially reverted without saying anything.

Miskin 4 July 2005 20:21 (UTC)

There may well be diglossia between Katharevousa and Dhimotiki. That doesn't make them mutually intelligible, any more than Egyptian Arabic and Classical Arabic are mutually intelligible, even though speakers of Egyptian Arabic can all understand Classical Arabic. Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are two different languages, and the older one is extinct, by the same token that Australopithecus and Homo sapiens are two different species, and the older one is extinct. --Angr/undefined 4 July 2005 20:35 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Angr, you are wrong. Katharevousa is easily intelligible to modern-day native Greek speakers, even those who have been schooled after its abolition from education in 1976. Chronographos 4 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)

 * Well put. And there's certainly no doubt that Ancient Macedonian is extinct: it left no living descendants. - 4 July 2005 20:42 (UTC)

I don't know what Egyptian Arabic are to Classical Arabic, but Demotic Greek is in fact intelligible with Kathareuousa. It was never the vernacular language so it's obviously not as easy to understand, but then again so is Scottish English. Miskin 4 July 2005 20:54 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonian doesn't have a clear status as a distinct language from Greek, so it should either be categorised under 'Greece' or not be included at all (assuming it a dialect of ancient Greek that evolved to Koine Greek). Have a look at an original Macedonian text at Pella katadesmos. Miskin 4 July 2005 20:54 (UTC)

 * Before you start talking about edit wars, you could try discussing your edits on talk before introducing them. Whether Ancient Macedonian, or any other language, is a "separate" language is irrelevant; whether it was a language or a dialect, it's extinct, and most sources regard it as a language. - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 21:12 (UTC)

 * And before posing an expert, maybe you should learn the basics of your subjects. If ancient Macedonian is categorised as a dialect of Ancient Greek, it should not be included separately. The dialect vs language status is not irrelevant at all. Ancient Greek is not a language, it's a groups of dialects. Aeolic Greek is also an ancient Greek dialect. And it's lost. Why didn't you people add it under Greek? Because you don't know what you're talking about. I told you why introduced my edits, it's because they're common knowledge to people who have a clue. Besides I added it as a separate language assuming it a non-Greek dialect. Miskin 4 July 2005 21:24 (UTC)

 * Actually, I've observed your and others' edit warring at Ancient Macedonian language, and as it correctly notes despite many efforts to POV it, "It is as yet undetermined whether the language was a separate yet sibling language which was most closely related to Greek, or a dialect of Greek, or an independent Indo-European language not especially close to Greek." And no, the language vs. dialect distinction is not very relevant, because it's thoroughly ill-defined.  Now you mention it, adding Aeolic and Doric Greek here is a pretty good idea, just as Moabite and Edomite are or should be in here despite unquestionably being mutually comprehensible with Hebrew.  I don't know who "you people" is supposed to be. - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 21:33 (UTC)

Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are two different languages, and the older one is extinct, by the same token that Australopithecus and Homo sapiens are two different species, and the older one is extinct.

You saw my articles and sources on the Greek language. You still haven't proved that you have a basic clue. So let me repeat the question, do you speak both and you're able to make the distinction or have you read countless books on the subject? Miskin 4 July 2005 21:24 (UTC)
 * Mustafaa, your familiarity with Greek may leave something to be desired. Koine (the language of the Gospels and the Septuagint), is Ancient Greek, yet it is easily intelligible by modern-day Greeks practically regardless of their educational level, as anyone can see for themselves by going to any Greek church. Chronographos 4 July 2005 21:44 (UTC)

 * The quote above is from Angr, actually. However, the existence of transitional dialects does not imply that two languages are identical.  If Low German is intelligible to Dutch speakers, and is considered as a German dialect, this does not therefore imply that Dutch is a German dialect, nor even that Dutch and German are mutually intelligible. - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 22:01 (UTC)
 * This principle may well apply to Ancient Greek Dialects other than Attic, the precursor of Koine, but Koine is intelligible (see my argument above). By your criteria, a highlander Scotsman's English and an Alabaman redneck's English do not belong in the same language.  So please try to apply the appropriate criteria to each case.  Chronographos 4 July 2005 22:12 (UTC)

 * Extinct language simply means that a given language is no longer natively spoken, not whether it is intelligible to speakers of a related language or a daughter language. No one natively speaks New Testament Greek anymore (though by definition it was largely literary), last time I checked. It is extinct. This is not even an issue over which a counter-argument can be maintained. Decius 5 July 2005 08:47 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the talk page of Extinct language, if modern Greeks can read Ancient Greek with little or no difficulty, it's because of widespread familiarity with the artificially archaizing Katharevousa variety, not because Greek has changed so little over the last three thousand years. The phonological, syntactic, and morphological differences between the Greek of Homer, Plato, and Aristotle and the language spoken on the street in Athens today are huge and certainly enough to warrant considering them separate languages. Although my personal experience is irrelevant to the issue, Miskin brought it up, so I will respond that yes, I have read a lot about Ancient Greek. I studied classical languages and Indo-European linguistics at university and can read Ancient Greek without too much difficulty. Modern Greek, on the other hand, is completely impenetrable to me, because it's a different language, and one I've never learned. I'd like to someday, but I haven't yet, and my knowledge of Ancient Greek is no help except as far as recognizing the letters of the alphabet. --Angr/undefined 5 July 2005 09:03 (UTC)

Angr, the fact remains that you speak no form of Greek, neither Modern, neither Medieval, neither Hellenistic, neither Ancient, neither Mycenaean, neither Proto-Greek. Therefore what you say has absolutely no basis. The fact that you claim that you can read ancient Greek with no much difficulty is just a joke to anybody who has read your posts, which reveal that you don't even have fundamental knowledge on the subject. As I told you before, you are free to force your personal opinion on your family and friends, but not in wikipedia. Miskin

It is as yet undetermined whether the language was a separate yet sibling language which was most closely related to Greek, or a dialect of Greek, or an independent Indo-European language not especially close to Greek.

Trust me but I'm well aware with what this article says. This quote tells us that ancient Macedonian does not have a clear languistic status, it could be a language or a dialect. Therefore, when you write it down as a extinct language, you make the assumption that it's a language, otherwise it's part of Ancient Greek. Are we ok so far? Now when you make an assumptions you have to state it, therefore I'll add next to ancient Macedonian "assuming a language status". I hope we agree to this simple logical conclusion. As it's recorder in Arrian's Anabasis, Alexander the Great said to the Persians: Your ancestors invaded Macedon and the rest of Greece and did us harm to us all.... Therefore Macedonia was part of ancient Greece, and the Macedonian language/dialect should be categorised under Greece, not Balkans. As for 'Cappadocian Greek', two points: Therefore it should be removed. Miskin
 * It's a dialect of Modern Greek (as the article states it)
 * It's not extinct.

this shouldn't be about mutual comprehensibility at all. The question is, does the language have living descendants. PIE is not an 'extinct' language, it evolved, i.e. at no point in history did it die out. This holds even though PIE and English etc., are certainly not mutually intelligible. dab (ᛏ) 6 July 2005 16:29 (UTC)

Okay, then if we change the definition/criterion of an extinct language/dead language, we must remove the other examples from the list, not just the Greek: remove Old Norse, remove Latin, and so on. I don't see any reason why Greek should be a special case. Decius 7 July 2005 00:48 (UTC)

You guys do realize, of course, that by our new definition, we would have to remove Dacian, Thracian, or Illyrian---if the Albanian language is subsequently proven to descend from one of them... Decius 7 July 2005 01:14 (UTC)

The criteria didn't change Decius. It's just that in the case of Greek, they were not applied properly. One important factor on the survival of a language is its documentation, and Albanian definitely doesn't have a continuous one. Albanian would be striving to prove that it has a direct heritage from one of those languages (such as Romance to Latin), but we can't talk about a same language status. However if it was somehow proved, then we'd have to remove it, but I don't see how that's relevant in the time being. I agree of course that there are probably many other languages that need to be added or removed from the list. For the known reasons, I didn't have the time to review the entire article earlier. Miskin 7 July 2005 01:47 (UTC)

Latin definitely stays in the list. I don't know much about Old Norse and the so on, but they probaby have to stay as well. Greek is not a special case in the sense that it's receiving special treatment by linguists. It's a special case in the sense that it had a special history which preserved the language better than most others. Miskin 7 July 2005 01:47 (UTC)

Until we settle on a definition/criterion, I prefer to remove Latin, Old Norse, Old English ("Anglo-Saxon"), and some others. Decius 7 July 2005 02:04 (UTC)

There are many reasons that explain why Latin and Greek evolved so differently. First of all think about the fact that early Latin was a language spoken solely at Rome, while Greek (a separate branch of IE) prior to the conquests of Alexander the Great was spoken on the entire Greek peninsula and Cyprus, Asia Minor and Caucasus, Southern Italy and Sicily, Southern coast France and Sardinia, Eastern Spain and Corse etc, etc. This is an important starting point already. Now after Alexander's conquest of the known world, a common form of Greek speech is created and spoken up to the fringes of India. Latin is still restricted in Rome. Greek colonisation occurs and Koine Greek replaces the majority of Ancient Greek dialects. The Roman conquest begins with the Latin League and Magna Graecia. None of those regions are Latin-Speaking, therefore Latin starts mixing with other languages. At the peak of the Empire, the Western part is multilingual and the Eastern part is Greek-speaking. Classic Latin is restricted to official use, and Vulgar Latin forms of speech are already well developed. Romans are fond of the Greek language and expand its use, while in the West Latin is being mixed into Kelto-Germanic and Italic speeches. After the sack of Rome to Alaric (5th c. AD) Vulgar Latin forms start evolve at separate directions. Greek on the other hand is preserved by the Byzantine Empire in a Koine form that survives until throught the Ottoman Empire until today. Modern Greek texts can be traced as back as 12th c. AD. In other words, Latin was never spoken in a large geographical region, it had always had to be forced on foreign languages (such as Keltic, Etruscan or Greek of southern Italy), and therefore absorbed many of their elements. Latin's native speakers were initially the Roman citizens, but as the term "Roman" lost connection to the city of Rome, so did the Latin language. Greek which was already the language of christianity and the New Testament, it never lost connection from the Greek peninsula and Constantinople. Latin is considered extinct because all of its historical stages (early, classic, late, vulgar etc) came to an end. This was not the case with Greek. Ancient Greek to Greek what early Latin is to Latin, that is a historical period of a language, and not a language itself. We can't say that Ancient Greek is extinct, because we don't say that Early Latin is extinct. However we say that Latin is extinct while Greek is living; Latin includes Early Latin and Greek includes Ancient Greek. The reason why linguists chose to consider the Romance languages a separate modern family that derives from Latin, rather than a form of modern Latin dialect family, it is because the Romance languages became unintelligible to each other. Greek preserved a Koine form with various dialects and idioms that maintained intelligibility. Greek was stopped being called 'Hellenic' during the middles ages in the Greek World. The Byzantines called it "Roman" and it survived like that until the 19th century. It was modern Western scholars who changed its name back to Greek because that's what it was. Miskin 7 July 2005 03:14 (UTC)

The problem I have here is establishing a firm criterion for the entire article: if having a spoken descendant means a language is not extinct, then Latin is not extinct, Old English is not extinct, and Old Norse is not extinct, so I removed them. Simple as that. Decius 7 July 2005 03:28 (UTC)

I agree to that. The current definition is imprecise. I'm not sure on whether or not Old English and Norse should be considered extinct languages, or simply early stages of a living language. Someone with specific linguistic knowledge should verify that to us. Miskin 7 July 2005 03:41 (UTC)

Latin, ancient Greek, Old English, Sanskrit, Syriac, and Old Norse all have living descendants, of course; and they are all also very different from their modern descendants. Not listing them is a logically consistent position, if all of them are removed; but frankly, it's extraordinarily unhelpful to the reader, given that such languages are normally called extinct. - Mustafaa 7 July 2005 21:23 (UTC)
 * Exactly. they are traditionally known as extinct. mikka (t) 8 July 2005 03:21 (UTC)
 * Exactly, and "they" includes ancient Greek. Decius 8 July 2005 04:03 (UTC)

WP:RFC
I've listed this article on the Request for Comment page. ℬ astique ▼ talk 5 July 2005 11:49 (UTC)

Tradeoff
In fact there is an easy way to reconcile the sides: to introduce sections:

-=Totally extinct languages==
 * and

-=Languages considered extinct with extant descendants==

mikka (t) 8 July 2005 03:21 (UTC)

Good idea: sections to the article is probably the best solution. Decius 8 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

Mikkalai, don't you agree that Ancient Greek is "considered extinct with spoken descendants"? Decius 8 July 2005 03:25 (UTC)

Dead End Languages and Evolved Languages (It's simple and Totally just grates on me) ℬ astique ▼ talk 8 July 2005 03:27 (UTC)

This new compromise is the best solution. I expect more people now to revert Miskin's attempts at favoritism and subjective categorization. Decius 8 July 2005 03:43 (UTC)

Two sections
This new format is to avoid subjective categorization, Miskin. Otherwise, what criterion do you use? How "close" a descendant is to its parent language? Do you realize how subjective and chaotic such a "classification" would be? It would result in various edit wars for the inclusion or exclusion of various languages. Forget your own world for now, I'm doing what's best for the article. This is not just about "Greek" and "ancient Greek", but could involve any two languages or any two stages of a language, from Africa to Oceania. The list must have consistent criteria. Decius 8 July 2005 04:20 (UTC)

Further compromise can be made with the titles of the sections, but I'll revert any sudden, unexplained drastic changes. I think the section title I put for Ancient Greek and Latin and Old English (Anglo-Saxon), etc., is unoffensive (Languages that have evolved into new forms). I realize that the word "extinct" is what some find very offensive when applied to ancient Greek (or Latin), so perhaps "evolved" is better to use. Decius 8 July 2005 04:33 (UTC)

Another compromise might be to have a separate article for the languages no longer spoken, but with spoken descendants (which would include ancient Greek), if somebody really can't stand seeing ancient Greek on a List of extinct languages. Decius 8 July 2005 04:57 (UTC)

This format gives Ancient Greek a separate language status. There are various forms of Hellenic speech which have occasionally been given a separate language status (like Mycenaean Language and Proto-Greek), and Ancient Greek is not one of them. Therefore your new format provides subjective categorisation. I don't see a reason for an edit war unless you keep ignoring what the linguist view on the subject. I'm sure you're doing the best for the article but it appears that it's not good enough as it a POV interpretation. We can remove Old French and Old English for the time being (as I said I don't know what linguists say on those), but I'm adding Latin for obvious reasons. I'm only insisting on the categorisation of Greek and Latin because that's what I'm familiar with. Miskin 8 July 2005 08:13 (UTC)

Miskin, what you didn't notice is the new title of the section, which you can't say is incorrect, so there is no "POV" (Languages that have evolved into new forms). Latin is already added. Decius 8 July 2005 08:16 (UTC)

what is the point of this list anyway??
before you continue haggling about individual language, do consider whether the article title is not altogether flawed. I do think so. What is this article supposed to contain? A "list of endangered languages", including recently extinct languages, would be useful. A list of ancient languages is quite a different animal. THis article is just conflating the two. Miskin, I wasn't trying to get every ancient language listed here, I was trying to point out the absurdity of that approach. Can we maybe break this up in "list of Bronze Age languages", "list of Iron Age languages", "list of medieval languages", and "list of extinct modern languages", or something like that? There is simply no point in listing Mycenaean next to Manx. dab (ᛏ) 8 July 2005 07:24 (UTC)

 * Let's open a discussion on this. I think your proposal sounds pretty good---the more clarity and precision, the more useful an article is anyway. Do you think creating new articles is better, or new sections? I could go for either. Decius 8 July 2005 07:31 (UTC)

well, the separation is already a good thing. "Languages that have evolved into new forms" is woefully short, of course, and it will include any language ever spoken prior to the 21st century, i.e.: dab (ᛏ) 8 July 2005 11:08 (UTC)
 * 1) is there a point to this list?
 * 2) shouldn't it be named "non-contemporary languages"
 * 3) if you really really want to keep it, move it to a separate article (which will be a long list).
 * 4) conversely, a "list of contemporary languages" will be shorter (some 5000 entries), and more interesting, and can at least aspire to be complete sometime.

 * I put 'em there for now rather than listing them as simply extinct with the rest of the bunch (with Ancient Greek absent from the list due to you know who). A temporary solution to a problem, and seems to be better to the prior situation (one level of specificity above the prior list). However, I'm ready for a better solution. Decius 8 July 2005 11:15 (UTC)

Sources on Greek
That support a continuous Greek language of four (or five) historical periods:

 * L. Roussel, Grammaire descriptive du romeique litteraire (Paris 1922)
 * M. Perides, The Greek language and its contemporary form (Athens 1959)
 * A. Mirambel, La langue grecque moderne - Description et analyse (Paris 1950)
 * da Somavera, Treasures of the Frankish and Romaic language (Paris 1709)
 * N.P.Andriotes, Great dictionary of the Greek language (Athens 1949-1950)
 * K. Krumbacher, The problem of the modern Greek literary language (1902)
 * V. Rotolo, A. Korais and the linguistic question in Greece (Palermo 1965)

During the early 19th century a school of linguists who were trying to categorise the so-called "Roman" language (Modern Greek), supported a theory that it was a mixture of ancient Aeolic and Doric. Some strong supporters of this view were:

 * F. Mullach - Grammar of the Aeolo-Doric, id est the contemporary Greek language.
 * M. Deffner
 * A. Christopoulos
 * D. Mavrofrudes

The established theory is the one of Heilmaier and N. Hatzidakis, which states that contemporary Greek speech is a form of Koine Greek, hence the presence of Aeolo-Doric elements.

Miskin 8 July 2005 08:02 (UTC)

 * Well, it seems to me that this is a case where both positions are correct according to perspective and definition, which is why I can view Greek as a continuous living language (it is) while at the same time admitting that in a strict sense, Ancient Greek is extinct, because it evolved into new forms (also correct). The same is true for many other languages. Now, the question is, what do we do with the article. Decius 8 July 2005 08:06 (UTC)

 * Ancient Greek can't be treated in the same way as Latin because it's part of a living language. As I said before, there are forms of Greek speech which are occasionally given a separate language status, but Ancient Greek is simply not one of them. I don't know what you mean by strict sense, this categorisation is pretty clear. One of the reason that Modern Greek is a historical period of Greek rather than a simple ancestor (what Romance is to Latin), is because the dialects of Modern Greek are mutually intelligible. On the other hand the languages of Romance are not mutually intelligible, and therefore Romance gains a "language group" status, (as opposed to the "dialect group" of Modern Greek). Miskin 8 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

 * The 'strict sense' that I and others are referring to is: no ancient Greek dialect is natively spoken in their old forms any more, which is why extinct may be applied according to that definition. Decius 8 July 2005 08:34 (UTC)

 * Decius you keep making the same mistake by giving Ancient Greek a separate language status. You could give Mycenaean Greek a separate language status, I wanted to do that and if you notice I always mention four historical periods of Greek, but other (non-Greek) editors preferred to give it a period status. Ancient Greek has an undisputed "period status", so you can't talk refer to it as an extinct language by definition. Your definition of 'extinct' (no ancient Greek dialect is natively spoken in their old forms any more) doesn't make any sense, because by that logic no ancient dialect X of any ancient language Y is not natively spoken in their older forms anymore, so what's the point of keeping a list in the first place? By separating languages into historical periods we aim to point out that they did evolve without being extinct. Miskin 8 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

 * Perhaps we could make a further distinction, between "Languages that have evolved into new forms", which would include ancient Greek, Old French, Old English, etc. and "Languages that have evolved into new languages", i.e. Latin. I maintain that Latin is a special case but Old French is more or less the equivalent of ancient Greek.--Theathenae 8 July 2005 08:55 (UTC)

Modern English has three roots: Old English, Latin and Greek. Multiple roots are probably another factor which give a separate language status to a child language. That's probably the case with Latin and Romance as well. I haven't checked on Old French and Norse yet, but I suspect it's something similar. Miskin 8 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

 * The problem there is that a number of linguists argue (rather correctly) that Modern Greek is a new language that evolved from Koine. I don't know these linguists by name, but I'm pretty sure their writings can be found. Decius 8 July 2005 08:59 (UTC)

 * Amongst other reasons, Modern Greek has a 'period status' because it has no other roots other than Greek. Miskin 8 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

 * And Theathenae, I can't miss this opportunity to point out your hypocrisy and double-standards: you accept that Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are the same language, but Arvanitic has became a separate language from Tosk according to you, though it is classified as a dialect of Tosk. Decius 8 July 2005 09:14 (UTC)
 * Arvanitic has become a separate language by virtue of the centuries of deep penetration by Greek, and the self-identification of its speakers. As for modern Greek being a new language rather than the natural evolution of ancient Greek, support for such a theory would be marginal. Perhaps we could have a separate paragraph altogether for Latin, explaining the idiosyncrasies of its situation. As a Latin Lover myself, I find the idea of Latin being "extinct" rather repugnant.--Theathenae 8 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

I think that the problem is trying to apply a uniform, rigid criterion to vastly different situations. In this sense, Dab's suggestion is very good. I know nothing of Old French, but Old English is so different from Modern English because of the Norman Invasion and the subsequent large-scale grafting of French onto a Germanic language. (Not that it's the only grafting that occurred: last night I heard a London Underground bombing casualty say on camera "There was an explosion, and then hysteria, which turned into pandemonium". When the going gets tough, it's time for Greek.  :-)))  Anyhow, I don't see how one can separate Koine from Attic, and Koine is intelligible to illiterate 90-year old little ladies in church, so what now? Chronographos 8 July 2005 10:04 (UTC) (There are a few passages in Homer that any Greek can understand prima vista, and other passages that will send someone like me scrambling for a dictionary.  I did a test last Monday: I told my 12 year old nephew, who's smart and a good student but hadn't had any Ancient Greek classes yet, Pythia's reply to Julian, in flawless Doric.  "Είπατε τω βασιλεί, χαμαί πέσε δαίδαλος αυλά, ουκέτι Φοίβος έχει καλύβαν, ου μάντιδα δάφνην, ου παγάν λαλέουσαν, απέσβετο και λάλον ύδωρ". He couldn't get δαίδαλος and παγάν, although he knew who Daidalos was and needed me to tell him that παγάν meant πηγήν, and he predictably thought that πέσε was a command rather that an unaugmented Aorist.)
 * Explosion is Latin! :P--Theathenae 8 July 2005 10:16 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's the terrorist part.  The human feelings are the Greek part. :-)) Chronographos 8 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)
 * This would be more persuasive if δάφνην and βασιλεί were Doric, instead of Attic.... Septentrionalis 05:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Problems
So...why do we allow the listing of Old Church Slavonic but not Ancient Greek? Ridiculous double standards. Old Church Slavonic is close to Bulgarian. I propose modifying the parameters of the article. Languages with descendants should not be listed: Old Church Slavonic, Old English, Old Norse, and even Latin. Alexander 007 08:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree most with dab, above, when he says that he considers this article to be inherently flawed. There is no perfect solution to this. — mark ✎ 09:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that the original conception was extremely flawed. It may be salvageable if we set a stricter definition. However, even this may have problems. And there are languages such as Aquitanian which may be a direct ancestor of a spoken language (in the case of Aquitanian, the Basque language). Alexander 007 09:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * And should we list Sanskrit and the Ge'ez language for example? They are still used as Liturgical languages, and Sanskrit even beyond that. Alexander 007 09:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

If anybody chooses to revert, I remind them that the previous definition would have made this list unmanageable and POV. We would have to list each historical stage of every spoken language. Alexander 007 09:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * BTW, dab also suggested a redefining of the parameters for this list; see Talk:Historical language. It's the best solution so far, unless we decide to eliminate all the lists and allow Categories to sort them. Alexander 007 10:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I added the Old Church Slavonic without much of thinking, apology from me. Thanks for spotting this and the cleanup. Pavel Vozenilek 15:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Separate lists
While in many cases it is useful to list things "all on one page" (oh wow), in many cases where the lists will be extremely long, it is overwhelming and often hinders one from appreciating and actually benefiting from a list; hence, I created separate specialized articles (see Category:Lists of extinct languages). Alexander 007 15:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The one reason for this stub may be so List of extinct languages will direct to it, since it can't be directed to the Category...I wouldn't mind having it deleted, however. Alexander 007 15:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as it is now, it looks to me as if the subject would be better served by categories alone. — mark ✎ 15:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah, Categories can do it alone. Especially since one can have text and images on the Category page. I'll probably do this later, unless someone else beats me to it. Alexander 007 15:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * However, a drawback of Categories: you can't list languages or dialects unless they have separate articles already started. Alexander 007 15:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Another one is that categories only list articles by alphabetic order. Lists have other utilities: for example, a chronological ordered list of Europe extinct languages could help someone who wants to see what languages disappeared in Europe since the 15th century... Ash Crow 02:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

List of extinct languages ordered by time of extinction
I was looking for a list of extinct languages by time of extinction, but I didn't find anything like that. In my opinion there should be, though. I'm especially interested in the languages gone extinct recently... — N-true (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I simply created the article myself: List of languages by time of extinction. — N-true (talk) 00:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

List of Exctinct Languages of Oceania?
This should be here, in this list of lists of extinct languages. As of 21/12/21, there are several immediately identifiable from the List of languages by time of extinction.

Bonomiu (talk) 12:57, 21 December 2021 (UTC)Bonomiu

title: Talk:Lists of extinct languages


text:
Talk:Microtrauma

microtrauma are actually required in the building of stronger muscle, ligaments and tendons. for instance bodybuilders routinely expose themselves to microtrauma by regular intense anaerobic exercise. it is in the recouperation phase that the body repairs the trauma to an improved state - thus tendons are microscopically thicker and there are slightly more muscle fibres. Not sure this info is relevant here but could be misleading without it... -- User:jy
 * That's a very interesting claim; can anyone supply a medical reference to back that up? -- Beland 16:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Microtrauma


text:
Fort Schuyler

Fort Schuyler is a preserved 19th century fortification in the New York City borough of the Bronx. It houses a museum, the Stephen B. Luce Library, and the Marine Transportation Department and Administrative offices of the State University of New York Maritime College. It is considered one of the finest examples of early 19th century fortifications. The fort was named in honor of Major General Philip Schuyler of the Continental Army.

History
Fort Schuyler was one of many forts built along the east coast of the United States under the third system of US fortifications in the aftermath of the War of 1812, when it became apparent that the U.S. coast was poorly defended against foreign invasion. Fort Schuyler was begun in 1833 and dedicated in 1856 after 75% completion, though not garrisoned until 1861. The fort was strategically positioned to protect New York City from naval attack through Long Island Sound, guarding the eastern entrance to New York Harbor. It is located on Throggs Neck, the southeastern tip of the Bronx, where the East River meets Long Island Sound. Fort Totten, built during the Civil War and largely incomplete, faces it on the opposite side of the river. Their interlocking batteries created a bottleneck of defenses against ships attempting to approach New York City.

Design and construction
Fort Schuyler, at its peak, boasted 312 guns and could accommodate a garrison of 1,250 men. It was designed and built by the United States Army Corps of Engineers. Its position on Throggs Neck allowed four of its five sides to cover the water approach to New York City. Each of the four seacoast fronts had three tiers of cannon; ten guns per tier except on the north front, which had fourteen guns per tier. The bottom two tiers inside the fort were casemated, while the third tier on the roof had barbette mounts. Relatively small "tower bastions" of a type developed by US Army engineer Joseph G. Totten were at the three points where the seacoast fronts met. Each of these had twelve flank howitzers to protect the curtain walls of the fronts against assault, along with three heavy seacoast guns. Behind the fort were an extensive hornwork (unique in the third system) and an advanced redoubt (later demolished) to defend against a land attack. The hornwork had two demi-bastions protecting its face against a direct assault, along with a large ravelin extending northwest along the peninsula to break up an attack. Two additional demi-bastions protected the gap between the hornwork and the main fort. The demi-bastions and redoubt were armed with several flank howitzers each.

Civil War
During the American Civil War, Fort Schuyler held as many as 500 prisoners of war from the Confederate States Army and military convicts from the Union Army. It also included the McDougall Hospital, which had a capacity of 2,000 beds. The fort was well designed for its time, it is said to have had one of the most effective waste removal systems ever seen in a fort from this time period.

Fort Schuyler was also a mobilization and training center. Units trained at the fort before heading to combat included the 5th New York Volunteer Infantry "Duryee's Zouaves", the First California Regiment (later 71st Pennsylvania Infantry Regiment) under Senator and Colonel Edward Dickinson Baker, and the 69th and 88th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiments (the 1st and 2nd Regiments of Meagher's "Irish Brigade"). From January 1863 until March 1864, the fort itself was garrisoned by the 20th Independent Battery, New York Volunteer Artillery, a unit originally recruited to fight in the war as part of the Anthon Battalion of Volunteer Light Artillery.

Duty at the fort was reported to be a dull assignment as the men took the roles of guards and hospital stewards, not artillerymen. From July until August 1865 the fort was garrisoned by companies A, B, C, F, G, H and I of the Anderson Zouaves (companies D and E being assigned to Fort Wood on Bedloes Island), upon their return from service with the VI Corps of the Army of the Potomac and duty in the defenses of Washington, D.C. The Anderson Zouaves finally mustered out from Fort Schuyler on August 30, 1865.

Endicott era
A ten-gun battery was built 1873–1876 as part of a general fort improvement program, along with a mine casemate (bunker) for a controlled minefield in the river, Fort Totten being an experimental station for coast defense minefields. Later, Fort Schuyler received several modern coastal artillery gun batteries under the Endicott Program, completed 1898-1900 as part of the Coast Defenses of Eastern New York, which also included new batteries at Fort Totten and Fort Slocum on Davids' Island. These included Battery Gansevoort with two 12-inch guns on disappearing carriages, Battery Hazzard with two 10-inch disappearing guns, Battery Bell with two 5-inch guns on retractable balanced pillar carriages, and Battery Beecher with two 3-inch guns on retractable masking parapet carriages. The forts were initially garrisoned by heavy artillery companies, which became coast artillery companies in 1901, and part of the United States Army Coast Artillery Corps in 1907, including US regular army, New York State Militia, and New York National Guard units. However, soon after completion the defenses of the East River were largely superseded by the Coast Defenses of Long Island Sound on islands east of Long Island, including Fort H. G. Wright on Fishers Island.

After the American entry into World War I in 1917, Battery Bell's 5-inch guns were removed for potential service in France as field guns on wheeled carriages. Most of the 5-inch guns removed under this program were sent to France with the 69th Artillery Regiment of the Coast Artillery Corps. However, the regiment did not complete training before the Armistice and did not see action. The 5-inch guns were never returned to the forts and were scrapped circa 1920. Prior to 1922 one 12-inch gun at Battery Gansevoort was dismounted; this may have been in 1917–18 as potential railway artillery. At some time, probably in 1918-1920, a battery of two 3-inch antiaircraft guns was built at the fort. In 1920, with the war over, Battery Beecher's 3-inch guns were scrapped as part of a general removal from service of the M1898 3-inch gun. The 10-inch guns of Battery Hazzard followed in 1930; the reason for this is unclear. In 1934 the fort was disarmed and turned over to the state. All of the Endicott-era batteries were demolished in the 1950s.

College
In the late 1920s Fort Schuyler was placed on the abandoned list by the U.S. Army. When this was done, it was targeted for acquisition by Robert Moses for conversion to a state park as well as a permanent shore base for the New York State Merchant Marine Academy (now SUNY Maritime College). A protracted political struggle ensued, but eventually the academy forces prevailed. The site was transferred to the state of New York in 1934 during the Great Depression, then rehabilitated by the Works Progress Administration and dedicated to the school in 1938. The college, which was founded in 1874, still occupies the site, and in 1948 was one of the original 29 founding schools to be incorporated into the State University of New York as the State University of New York Maritime College. The fort has been listed on the National Register of Historic Places since 1976.

Maritime Industry Museum
In 1986, a portion of Fort Schuyler was dedicated as the Maritime Industry Museum. The museum houses exhibits on the history of the United States maritime industry, including commercial shipping, the merchant marine, and the port of New York, as well as exhibits on the history of Fort Schuyler. It is open to the public on weekdays.

title: Fort Schuyler


text:
User:Jy

hee

title: User:Jy


text:
Last Time Around

Last Time Around is the third and final studio album by the Canadian-American folk rock band Buffalo Springfield, released in July 1968. The line-up at the time officially consisted of Neil Young, Stephen Stills, Richie Furay, Dewey Martin, Bruce Palmer, and Jim Messina, though the band itself was essentially broken up and the album was put together from previous recordings, some made up to a year earlier. Jim Messina acted as the album producer and mixing engineer, with input from Furay, as the two compiled the record to fulfil the band's last contractual obligation to its label. A number of guest musicians (some uncredited) appeared on the album, notably pedal steel guitar player Rusty Young.

By the time this album was released, the members were already involved in their next projects: Richie Furay, Jim Messina, and Rusty Young were busy forming the country-rock band Poco, Stephen Stills was forming Crosby, Stills & Nash, and Neil Young was performing with a group known as The Rockets which would later become the band Crazy Horse. Dewey Martin tried to revive the Buffalo Springfield name with new musicians, but he was sued by Stills and Young to prevent him from doing so. Bruce Palmer briefly joined Crosby, Stills & Nash, but legal problems kept him from producing much musical output during the rest of the 1960s.

History
Last Time Around was released to fulfill contractual commitments. By the time it was completed the group had functionally disbanded, with the cover photo of the group consisting of a montage and the five original members only recording together on one track, "On the Way Home".

Original bassist Bruce Palmer only appears on "On the Way Home". His face is shown on the back cover photo montage with a humorous, partially obscured, "mad" sign aligned, due to Palmer resembling Alfred E. Neuman in the shot.

The lyrics to "The Hour of Not Quite Rain" were the result of an August 1967 contest run by Los Angeles radio station KHJ. Entrants would write a poem to be set to music and recorded by the Buffalo Springfield. The prize was $1000 plus publishing royalties. The winning entry was written by Micki Callen.

The album contained songs that were important to the authors. Neil Young has performed both "I Am a Child" and "On the Way Home" in concert throughout his career, the latter both solo and with CSNY, the Transband and the Bluenotes. "Kind Woman" became one of Richie Furay's best known songs; he performed it with Poco and throughout his solo career. Stephen Stills merged "Questions" with a new song, "Carry On", which became the opening track on Déjà Vu and was a major part of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's concert repertoire.

Critical reception
Barry Gifford of Rolling Stone called Last Time Around Buffalo Springfield's "most beautiful record" and "a final testament to their multi-talent". Robert Christgau, writing for Esquire, called it a "beautiful farewell album" of "countrified music", in which "country elements are incorporated into a total style". Richie Unterberger was less enthusiastic in a retrospective review for AllMusic. He found Young's songs for the album "outstanding", but believed Stills' songwriting was a decline from the group's previous albums. Young has been especially critical of the album, saying in an interview that "It was such a disgraceful mess that I can't bear to listen to it again. The mixes are incredibly awful, a very disturbing point," and saying in another interview that "the Springfield's last real album was 'Buffalo Springfield Again'." It was voted number 505 in the third edition of Colin Larkin's All Time Top 1000 Albums (2000).

Personnel

 * Buffalo Springfield
 * Richie Furay - guitar (1-3, 8, 10-12), vocals (1-3, 5, 7, 10, 12)
 * Dewey Martin - drums (1-3, 9, 11)
 * Jim Messina - bass (2, 4, 5), vocals (5, 12)
 * Stephen Stills - guitar (1-4, 6, 8, 10, 11), piano (4, 6, 8), B3 organ (6, 8, 11), bass (6, 8), clavinet (8), vibes (1), percussion (11), handclaps (11), background vocal (1, 5, 8, 10), lead vocal (3, 4, 6, 8, 11)
 * Neil Young - guitar (3, 9, 10), harmonica (9), piano (1), background vocal (1), lead vocal (9)
 * Bruce Palmer - bass (1)
 * Additional personnel
 * Jim Fielder - bass (3)
 * Buddy Miles - drums (6)
 * Jimmy Karstein - drums (8, 10)
 * Gary Marker - bass (9)
 * Jeremy Stuart - harpsichord, calliope, bells (10)
 * Rusty Young - pedal steel guitar (12)
 * Richard Davis - bass (12)
 * unidentified - horns (1), saxophone, clarinet (2), drums (4), bass, drums, harpsichord, orchestra (7), horn (11), piano, drums (12)

Track numbers refer to CD and digital releases of the album.

Production

 * Producer: Jim Messina
 * Engineers: Adrian Barber, Phil Iehle, Jim Messina

title: Last Time Around


text:
Talk:Midrash

Examples
Can you give some examples? Just the simplest ones. I don't get into the point. Is Midrash a set of associations? --Ilya 15:05, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Arguably (almost) the entire bible is a midrash. The definition of midrash, used here, is a literary form that presents a spiritual truth as a "fact" of history in a popular manner with symbolic decorations adapted to the common mentality, it is often difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish fact from fiction.

 * For instance, the tale of Exodus, archaeologically speaking, lacks any virtual evidence of a actual trek through the desert. The story does however contain great spiritual/metaphysical truths about following the 10 Commandments to attain liberation from the machinations of the material plane (the desert) and the accumulation of worldly possessions. Therefore, The Exodus, is a metaphor/allegory (a "midrash") of the spiritual path to liberation as laid down by Moses.
 * Another example is Moses smashing the tablets upon which the 10 Commandments were written. This indicates that Moses was a person who actually "broke" all 10 Commandments and could not enter into The Promised Land.

I'm not sure what your point is. The narrative parts of the Bible are not commonly called "Midrash". Also, the reason Moses could not enter the land was not because he "broke the 10 commandments", but because he hit the rock in Numeri. JFW | T@lk  11:09, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Midrash Rabbah
Is there any reason why Midrash Qoholet Rabbah and Midrash Esther Rabbah were moved from Midrash Rabbah to (Post)-Talmudic? It seems a bit odd to list only eight of the ten rabboth in the section devoted to them. -- Arvind 16:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: the dating in the Rabbah section. The dates look far too late - perhaps rather than including final redaction dates there should be dates of composition. Shir ha Shirim rabbah, for example, has material that dates from the third century and earlier - some of it original and some of it copied from elsewhere. But, even for final redaction dates, the dates listed look far too late. Exodus rabbah was completed hundreds of years before the 12th century. -- Rose.joshua 22:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You can make changes, just cite good sources. If the original source has "yichus"  (i.e., Jewish Encyclopedia or Brittanica), I would leave the original intact with appropriate citation, and add the "better" date next to it (with appropriate citation). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dfass (talk • contribs) 17:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Can we please add a link to [www.torahforme.com A Site with Free MP3 Classes in Medrash Pirkey Drabi Eli'ezer and Midrash Tana Dbey Eliyahu]?Samson Ben-Manoach 12:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I think Wikipedians generally frown on these types of links. Best policy is to link only to secular academic sources, otherwise we end up with everyone adding their list of "favorites" to the article, and you will surely be unhappy when the various "cult" links begin appearing.  —Dfass 17:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Pirkey Drabi Eliezer
What the article states that it was not before the eighth century, is in contradiction with Radal's (Rav Dovid Luria) opinion, printed in many text of the midrash in the intro. do we have a source for this? if not, shouldn't we write Radal's opinion? Samson Ben-Manoach 23:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

editting pirkey drabi eliezer infor
no response so i am adding radals opinion. Samson Ben-Manoach 11:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Sure, just source it. —Dfass 14:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review
This article is currently undergoing a review at Good article review, as there were some problems detected in the article in which certain points do not meet Good article criteria. Notable problems included an inadequate lead per WP:LEAD, a complete lack of inline citations, and a lack of references throughout the article. In addition, while it is not a requirement, Good Articles are often fitted with images to improve the article's quality. If you support this delistment, or think the article should remain as a GA, feel free to add comments on the GA Review page. Thanks, Raime 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This article has been delisted from its GA-status, as it did not meet criteria and was subject to speedy failing. Please meet the above problems before renominating the article as a Good article candidate. Raime 17:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is written in a manner that renders it unintelligible for someone unacquainted with the subject matter. And what is the chart at the top? Cush (talk) 12:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree 100 percent. A general reader should be able to at least understand the first few paragraphs. 64.221.15.66 (talk) 20:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there a difference?
Is there a difference in the secular academic estimate of the dates of composition and the traditional dates as in BIble books? If so, could we have both listed? 88.155.94.77 18:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Timeline at the top
I just stumbled on this page, and have no knowledge of Jewish history or texts. With that in mind, the timeline confused the hell out of me. It's labelled with periods that I can't relate to, and to be honest, the only reason I think it's a timeline and not some kind of header is because I saw "era" nearby and assumed that the numbers were calendar years. It's confusing on its own, but it's doubly so since it precedes the introductory paragraph. I suggest moving it and/or modifying its appearance. If nothing else, it's not proper Wikipedia style. 68.103.235.157 (talk) 06:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I moved the 1st paragraph above the timeline because Tools/Navigation popups was confused by the time line.
 * I like the timeline, though, and was going to template-ize it for the other articles in the series (Jugot, Tannaim etc.) What would be an appropriate name for the template?  Thanks.  Saintrain (talk) 01:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Intelligibility
Is there a way to make this article intelligible to someone who has heard the term but has no background, insight, experience, or understanding of the topic? I am someone like that, and I came to this article to understand what midrash was. I left completely bewildered. Yes, I could look up each and every term, but I suspect in most encyclopedias, I would be given some opening information that did not require other information in order to be understood. As it stands now, it seems to be an article intended only for those who already know what it is and who are quite familiar with the realm of study it relates to. Monkeyzpop (talk) 10:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to second this observation. I turned to this page seeking to educate myself on what appears to be important and fundamental Jewish scholarship, and I leave it having gained nothing. The writer needs to begin with the assumption that the reader knows nothing of the topic, lay a foundation, and build upon it. As it, the article assumes, apparently, that the reader is Jewish, and builds upon that erroneous assumption. I look forward to an accessible article. Thanks. Kjdamrau (talk) 23:11, 29 April 2008

"cumulatively called Pardes."
I think you mean "collectively".

Midrash = "to repeat"?
I don't think this is correct, and perhaps someone has confused it with "mishnah". Also, while nearly all Hebrew words come from a verbal root, this word is a noun. I would have translated it literally as "study, research, homily." 24.245.53.137 (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Edits by 24.57.60.200s
An anonymous ip editor diff added a long essay arguing that the oral law is a fiction and other related ideas. As the talk pages are to talk about the article itself, not the subject of the article, I have removed it. If anyone would like to respond to the poster comments I recommend finding a forum more conducive to that discussion - Wikipedia is not the place. Jon513 (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Midrash theory about Jesus
There is a somewhat of a fringe theory about Jesus that argues from the standpoint of the Jewish Midrash. It essentially claims that the Gospels' historicity has been widely exagerated because of an alleged reproduction of key passages from the Old Testament or Tanakh. Although this theory has been widely discredited by mainstream exegetes, it remains popular among ideologically motivated secularist writers because it is one of the more common versions of the equally discredited Christ myth theory. It has even been adopted by a few liberal Christian theologians such as John Shelby Spong. ADM (talk) 23:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Intelligibility of This article
Why is this article replete with so much jargon? I could not parse what exactly is "homilectic" about the midrash anywhere in the article. This is a consistent problem with the field of theology and the people who study it: the use of obscurantism to make their subject seem as exacting as the sciences. It's annoying as heck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.180.123 (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Multiple Issues tag
The article reads like original research because there are so few inline citations and overall references. It (as others have noted) appears to be overly complex. I am not familiar with the subject matter enough to make wholesale changes but am available to help.Awotter (talk) 05:17, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Request Edit - Public Domain and CC-BY Hebrew/Aramaic and English Texts
I have a COI (I work for Sefaria), and have discussed it on WikiProject:Judaism.

Sefaria has Hebrew/Aramaic text for nearly all of primary midrashim, all in the public domain, and has English for many of the primary ones - Sifra, Sifrei, Mekhilta, etc - all CC-BY, in parallel translation. I think this is a relevant resource to include here, in the external links section.

Before I understood the correct process for requesting a change like this, I went it in and made an edit, and had it reverted.

Link should probably be to the Midrash table of contents.

LevEliezer (talk) 09:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

LevEliezer (talk) 08:18, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Per the discussion at the conflict of interest noticeboard and WikiProject Judaism, which were favorably disposed to granting this edit request, I have added the link. Altamel (talk) 01:38, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

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More Jewish descriptions of midrash
It seems two of the earliest descriptions of midrash in this article are from Christian scholars. Admittedly, Old Testament and Hebrew Scripture seem to be their areas of study, but it would seem more appropriate for the first descriptions presented to come from Jewish scholars. Shawncoons — Preceding undated comment added 14:24, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Midrash


text:
Talk:Saint Thomas Christians

Why the "Saint Thomas Christians" called the "Syrian Christians":
I have read different opinions in different articles. I would like to point out some of it.

1)They are also called Syrian Christians because of their use of Syriac, which is a dialect of Aramaic, in liturgy.

2)The Malankara Church is a church of the Saint Thomas Christians of Kerala, India, with particular emphasis on the part of the community that joined Archdeacon Mar Thoma in swearing to resist the authority of the Portuguese Padroado in 1653. This faction soon entered into a relationship with the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, and was thereafter often known as the Malankara 'Syrian' Church. Ref:Gregorios & Roberson, p. 285;Vadakkekara, p. 91.

Here they say the church came to be known as Syrian church because of their relationship with Syriac Orthodox Church in Antioch.

3) The term Syrian relates not to their ethnicity but to their historical, religious and liturgical connection to the Church of the East, or East Syrian Church. Ref:Županov, Ines G. (2005). Missionary Tropics: The Catholic Frontier in India (16th–17th centuries), p. 99 and note. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-11490-5

4)At least from the fourth century the Indian Church entered into a close relationship with the Persian or East Syrian Church. From the Persians, the Indians inherited East Syrian language and liturgies and gradually came to be known as Syrian Christians.

5)Syriac Christianity (Syriac: ܡܫܝܚܝܘܬܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܬܐ / mšiḥāiūṯā suryāiṯā) encompasses the multiple Churches of Eastern Christianity whose services tend to feature liturgical use of ancient Syriac, a dialect of Middle Aramaic that emerged in Edessa in the early 1st century AD, and is closely related to the Aramaic of Jesus.

Ref:Allen C. Myers, ed (1987). "Aramaic". The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans. p. 72. ISBN 0-8028-2402-1.

6)The dutch colonial people in India first called the Saint Thomas Christians as "Syrian Christians' 7) I contest this 6th point. They were called Suriyani Christianis for centuries all together.

Add information about the division in simple terms
"Syrian Christians are divided mainly into Syrian Catholic, Jacobite, Orthodox, Marthoma churches depending upon whether they owe their allegiance to the Pope in Rome, the Patriarch in Antioch, Catholicos in Kerala’s Kottayam or Metropolita in Thiruvalla."

badly written
why did who do what where with whom for waht reason? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.130.142.29 (talk) 05:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Need more information
The article is missing info on various encounters with outsiders. I found some old sources https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278587/page/n205/mode/2up?q=malabar and https://archive.org/details/lingeringslight00whitgoog/page/n46/mode/2up?q=war which give insight into the travelers who reached the community before the Portuguese. There is also the purported Joseph the Indian who is said to be the first Indian Christian to visit Europe. Purportedly because his account were recorded by an unknown European unlike Varthamanappusthakam which was not written by a European. Maybe the language barrier but here to inform there is more information out there.Manabimasu (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be contradictory for the common perception that Vasco Da Gama was the first European to land in the Malabar coast??? Seems that it is well sourced then can be added to the article. AARYA SAJAYAN (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Vasco de Gama was the first European to reach India by an all-sea route. I’m not sure why it’s not mentioned on wiki pages but there were other Europeans who traveled by land and sea routes to India. Maybe because it’s not credible enough. We can cite it as the accounts of the traveler. It may or may not be real. The info I see that’s needed is documentation on Portuguese arrival. I came across Joseph Azar (prince) and according to the above source there was a war between Jews and Muslims which the Christians and local princes fought in. Here is another source https://archive.org/details/LettersFromMalabar_201601/page/n141/mode/2up. I’m trying to find if there is more info on the war. Also, the source(https://archive.org/details/lingeringslight00whitgoog/page/n324/mode/2up) says the community had preserved the history and that there were 32 chief Brahmins instead of one king. Manabimasu (talk) 07:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

That is indeed something new. I will also be active in finding more sourced materials regarding the conflict between the ancient jews and muslims. I have heard about a tradition of the knanaya community, a Jewish Christian community which had migrated to Southern parts of Kerala from Cranganore (Kodungallur/Muziris) as a result of the war. AARYA SAJAYAN (talk) 09:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I found a source http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/157659/1/157659.pdf see page 19. Here it says the Jews and Christians fought each other.Another source https://jainqq.org/explore/032548/104 on Visscher's Letters. The account is from an Italian traveler. I think travelers may have information on the conflicts of the Malabar before the portuguese. Maybe the St. Thomas Community does not have a detailed account or that much of the history is still in Malayalam and not in English. We could compile all the travelers before portuguese who write about the area. So far I have seen

European Traveler accounts to add:

Marco Polo,Odorico, Sighelm, Theodorus, Giovanni de' Marignolli, Jordanus of Severac, Aloysius Cadamustus

Arab travelers accounts to add-

Abu al-Fidāʾ,Dimašqī

Manabimasu (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Image
This conversation is copied from User talk:Pbritti

thumb|140px|Image being discussed.

Hey Pbritti, I just uploaded this image since it contains the traditional dress of the st thomas syrian christians chatta and mundu which is mentioned in the wikipedia article.I'm a person belonging to this community of St.Thomas Christians.Kindly do consider these images to be kept on the page.Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TRHmTivl (talk • contribs) 17:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, Thanks for reaching out, I'm going to move this conversation to the talk page of the article per standard procedure, but wanted to respond to you here quickly. Three other editors disagree with the inclusion of that image on the grounds that it is excessive, and your insertion of the image has been reverted four times. Additionally, it is peculiarly captioned for a photo of a very specific couple. The clothing is mentioned in the article, but not in your caption. While inclusion of images of traditional dress are nice, the image hardly depicts that clothing (only from the chest up). A preferable image exists on the page for the Chatta and Mundu. You've also been inserting the image in a location somewhat irrelevant to what it depicts; if we weren't already so full-up on illustrations in that article, you'd want to put it directly by the passage that mentions it. Thanks for reaching out, but I recommend you heed the gathered consensus against that image on the page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned at Commons:User talk:TRHmTivl, I have concerns over the copyright status of this image.
 * I also agree with Pbritti that it is not useful to readers, as I do not think it is relevant enough to Saint Thomas Christians as an encyclopedia topic. Since it doesn't clearly illustrate the clothes, it is decorative, and therefore inappropriate. Grayfell (talk) 18:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I was also concerned about the copyright status; at least here in the U.S, I have a hard time imagining it's free. Regardless, it's an unideal image for this page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Engagement and Marriage are not performed in the same service
> For example, engagement and marriage are usually performed together in the same service.

This requires citation. Except for some very rare and specific cases, engagement (othukalyanam) and kalyanam (marriage) are performed separately and hosted by the bride's family and groom's family respectively. ParaPsychic (talk) 02:09, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Thomas Christians


text:
Ashraf Ghani

Mohammad Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai (born 19 May 1949) is an Afghan former politician, academic, and economist who served as the president of Afghanistan from September 2014 until August 2021, when his government was overthrown by the Taliban.

Ghani was born in Logar, Afghanistan. After his grade-school education in Afghanistan, he spent much of his time abroad, studying in Lebanon and the United States. After receiving his PhD in cultural anthropology from Columbia University in 1983, he taught at various institutions and was an associate professor of anthropology at Johns Hopkins University. For much of the 1990s, he worked at the World Bank. In December 2001, he returned to Afghanistan after the collapse of the Taliban government. He then served as finance minister in Hamid Karzai's cabinet. He resigned in December 2004 to become the dean of Kabul University. In 2009, Ghani ran in the 2009 Afghan presidential election but came in fourth.

In 2014, Ghani became president after winning the controversial 2014 Afghan presidential election. The election was so disputed that negotiations between Ghani and rival Abdullah Abdullah were mediated by the United States. Ghani became president and Abdullah chief executive, with power split 50-50. On 18 February 2020, Ghani was re-elected after a delayed result from the 2019 presidential elections. He was sworn in on 9 March 2020. As president, Ghani was known for his intensity and energetic speeches. He aimed to transform Afghanistan into a technocratic state, winning him support from youth and urban demographics. His cabinets were relatively young and well-educated. Ghani made efforts to make peace with Taliban insurgents and improving relations with Pakistan. However many of his promises, such as fighting corruption and turning the country into a trade hub between central and south Asia, were left unfulfilled. His position was also weakened by political rivalries, his attempt to lessen the power of ex-warlords, and an uneasy relationship with the United States regarding the war. He was also criticized for being aloof and short-tempered, including being in denial during the Taliban's offensive in 2021.

On 15 August 2021, his term ended abruptly, as the Taliban took over Kabul. Ghani and staff fled Afghanistan and took refuge in the United Arab Emirates. He later stated he left in order to avoid further violence, and that staying and dying would have accomplished nothing but adding another tragedy to Afghanistan's history. But many people see him as a traitor for abandoning Afghanistan to the Taliban and pervasive corruption under his administration.

Early life (1949–1983)
Ghani was born on 19 May 1949 in the Logar Province in the Kingdom of Afghanistan to Shah Pesand, a clerk worker, and Kawbaba Lodin, who hailed from Kandahar. He belongs to the Ahmadzai Pashtun tribe.

Education
Ghani's grade-school education was mostly done in Afghanistan. He attended secondary-level schooling in Kabul. But for the 1966–1967 school year, Ghani studied as a foreign exchange student at Lake Oswego High School (LOHS) in Lake Oswego, Oregon under the name Ashraf Ahmad. The American Field Service sponsored his foreign exchange stay. He served on the student council.

In 1973, he received a Bachelor of Arts in political studies from the American University of Beirut in Lebanon. There, he met his future wife, Rula. From 1973 to 1977, Ghani served on the faculty of Kabul University and Aarhus University in Denmark in 1977.

In 1977, he received a Master's in cultural anthropology from Columbia University on a government scholarship.

While Ghani originally intended to stay for two years, the outbreak of the 1978 Saur Revolution led to much of his male family being imprisoned. He stayed at Columbia and received a PhD in cultural anthropology in 1983. His doctoral thesis was titled 'Production and domination: Afghanistan, 1747–1901'. His thesis advisors included Conrad M. Arensberg, Richard Bulliet, Morton Fried, and Robert F. Murphy.

Academic career (1983–1991)
In 1983, after receiving his PhD, he taught briefly at University of California, Berkeley, and then at Johns Hopkins University as an associate professor from 1983 to 1991. His academic research was on state-building and social transformation. In 1985, he completed a year of fieldwork researching Pakistani madrassas as a Fulbright Scholar.

World Bank (1991–2001)
In 1991, Ghani became Lead Anthropologist at the World Bank. During this time, he spent five years working in China, India, and Russia working on various projects. After the mid-nineties, he switched to working on the Bank's social policy, reviewing country strategies, and designing reform programs. While working for the Bank, he attended the leadership training programs of Harvard-INSEAD and World Bank-Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Return to Afghanistan (2001–2013)
In December 2001, he finally returned to Afghanistan after 24 years of absence. After the ousting of the Taliban that year, Ghani became a key figure in the Afghan Interim Administration, which lasted from December 2001 until July 2002.

He left his job at the World Bank and joined the United Nations as Special Adviser to Ambassador Lakhdar Brahimi, the United Nations Secretary-General's special envoy to Afghanistan. In this role, he worked on design and implementation of the Bonn Agreement, which outlined the post-Taliban government of Afghanistan. During this time, he also worked pro bono as Chief Adviser to then-interim president Hamid Karzai. He approved the constitution and worked on preparing the Loya Jirgas that eventually elected Karzai.

Minister of Finance (2002–2004)
On 2 June 2002, Ghani became finance minister of the new Transitional Afghan government under President Karzai. This government would last until 2004, when it was to be replaced by a "fully representative government".

He carried out extensive reforms, including issuing a new currency, computerizing treasury operations, instituting a single treasury account, adopting a policy of balanced budgets and using budgets as the central policy instrument, centralizing revenue collection, tariff reform and overhauling customs. He instituted regular reporting to the cabinet, the public and international stakeholders as a tool of transparency and accountability, and required donors to focus their interventions on three sectors, improving accountability with government counterparts and preparing a development strategy that held Afghans more accountable for their own future development. He assisted with the National Solidarity Program, which covered 13,000 of the country's estimated 20,000 villages.

Chancellor of Kabul University (2004–2008)
After Karzai was elected in October 2004, Ghani had declined to join his cabinet and instead asked to be appointed to the chancellorship at Kabul University. From 22 December 2004 to 21 December 2008, Ghani thus served as Chancellor of Kabul University. He focused on rebuilding the university and its resources after years of conflict and neglect under the Taliban government.

In January 2005, Ghani co-founded the Institute for State Effectiveness with Clare Lockhart, of which he was chairman. The institute focused on the role of the state and transparency in governance. The organization's work was discussed at the UN and World Bank in September 2005. With Lockhart, he later published the book Fixing Failed States: A Framework for Rebuilding a Fractured World in 2008.

In 2005, he became a member of the Commission on Legal Empowerment of the Poor, an independent initiative hosted by the United Nations Development Programme.

Throughout 2005, Ghani gave many keynote speeches across the world, including the American Bar Association's International Rule of Law Symposium, the Trans-Atlantic Policy Network, the annual meeting of the Norwegian Government's development staff, CSIS's meeting on UN reform, the UN–OECD–World Bank's meeting on Fragile States and TED Global.

He also regularly gave interviews and contributed to the Financial Times, International Herald Tribune, Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post.

At the end of 2006, the Financial Times ran a front-page report speculating that Ghani was a top candidate to succeed Kofi Annan as secretary-general of the United Nations. He was quoted as saying, "I hope to win, through ideas."

2009 presidential election

In January 2009, an article by Ahmad Majidyar of the American Enterprise Institute included Ghani on a list of fifteen possible candidates in the 2009 Afghan presidential election.

On 7 May 2009, Ashraf Ghani registered as a candidate in the 2009 Afghan presidential election. Ghani's campaign emphasized the importance of a representative administration, good governance, a dynamic economy and employment opportunities for the Afghan people. Unlike other major candidates, Ghani asked the Afghan diaspora to support his campaign and provide financial support. He appointed Mohammed Ayub Rafiqi as one of his vice president candidate deputies, and hired Clinton campaign chief strategist James Carville as a campaign advisor.

Preliminary results placed Ghani fourth in a field of 38, securing roughly 3% of the votes.

Chairman of Transition Coordination Commission (2010–2013)
From 2010 to 1 October 2013, he served as chairman of the Afghan Transition Coordination Commission (TCC), which was responsible for transferring power from ISAF/NATO troops to Afghan Security Forces. He travelled across Afghanistan extensively during this time.

On 28 January 2010, Ghani attended the International Conference on Afghanistan in London, pledging his support to help rebuild their country. Ghani presented his ideas to Karzai as an example of the importance of cooperation among Afghans and with the international community, supporting Karzai's reconciliation strategy. Ghani said hearing Karzai's second inaugural address in November 2009 and his pledges to fight corruption, promote reconciliation and replace international security forces persuaded him to help.

Ghani resigned his post on 1 October 2013 in order to run for president in 2014.

Presidency (2014–2021)
After announcing his candidacy for the 2014 elections, Ghani tapped General Abdul Rashid Dostum, a prominent Uzbek politician and former military official in Karzai's government, and Sarwar Danish, an ethnic Hazara who served as the justice minister in Karzai's cabinet, as his vice presidential candidates. After none of the candidates managed to win more than 50% of the vote in the first round of the election, Ghani and Abdullah Abdullah, the two frontrunners from the first round, contested in a runoff election, which was held on 14 June 2014.

Initial results from the run-off elections showed Ghani as the overwhelming favourite to win the elections. However, allegations of electoral fraud resulted in a stalemate, along with threats of violence and the formation of a parallel government by the camp of his opponent, Abdullah Abdullah. On 7 August 2014, US Secretary of State John Kerry flew to Kabul to broker a deal that outlined an extensive audit of nearly 8 million votes and formation of a national unity government with a new role for a chief executive officer who would carry out meaningful functions within the president's administration. After a three-month audit process, which was supervised by the United Nations with financial support from the U.S. government, the Independent Election Commission announced Ghani as president after Ghani agreed to a national unity deal. Initially, the election commission said it would not formally announce specific results. It later released a statement that said Ghani managed to secure 55.4% and Abdullah Abdullah secured 43.5% of the vote, although it declined to release the individual vote results. In September 2019, an explosion near an election rally attended by President Ashraf Ghani killed 24 people and injured 31 others, but Ghani was unhurt.

Ghani signed a law in September 2020 requiring mothers' names to be added to children's ID cards, in addition to fathers' names, which was seen as a win for women's rights activists in Afghanistan.

At age 65, Ghani became the oldest inaugurated Afghan ruler since the foundation of the Durrani Empire in 1747. At his 2019 re-election, at age 70, he overtook Mohammed Daoud Khan to become the oldest incumbent president.

Economy and trade
During his tenure, Ghani strengthened ties with Central Asian countries such as Uzbekistan, with which it has made deals to increase mutual trading. New trade routes have also been launched within the wider region. The Chabahar Port in Iran allows increased trading with India whilst avoiding Pakistani territory. Plans for a railway line from Khaf, Iran to Herat, Afghanistan were set in motion in 2018, with the railway being completed in 2020. In 2017, a railway line from Turkmenistan was extended to Aqina in Afghanistan, the precursor of the "Lapis Lazuli" transport corridor that was signed by Ghani that same year and would link Afghanistan to the Caucasus and the Black Sea. Other regional projects include the CASA-1000 hydroelectricity transmission from Central Asia, and the TAPI gas pipeline, expected to be completed by 2018 and 2019 respectively. In January 2018, at the inauguration of the Khan Steel iron smelting plant in Kabul, Ghani said that he is aiming for Afghanistan to become a steel exporter. In 2015, a survey conducted by the Afghan news channel TOLO News showed that the popularity of Ashraf Ghani in Afghanistan had fallen dramatically, with only 27.5% of respondents claiming that they were satisfied with his leadership.

Relations with Pakistan and India
Since his election, Ghani wanted to improve relations with Pakistan, which in turn could pave the way for peace talks with the Taliban. He refused to recognize the border with Pakistan, known as the Durand Line, which Pakistan views as an existential issue. He made his first visit to Pakistan on 14 November 2014, meeting Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. However, after many terror attacks in Afghanistan which were largely blamed on Pakistan, and failed Taliban peace talks, Ghani grew increasingly cold to Pakistan. Ghani claimed that Pakistan had hit an "undeclared war of aggression" against Afghanistan. Following two deadly Taliban/Haqqani attacks in Kabul in January 2018, Ghani called Pakistan the "center of the Taliban". Tolo News while quoting an unnamed source alleged that Ashraf Ghani had refused to take a call from the Pakistani prime minister, instead he sent a NDS delegation to hand over evidence that the terrorists were supported by Pakistan. However, Afghan envoy Omar Zakhilwal rejected such reports regarding Ghani's phone call rejection with Pakistan prime minister. He stated that no phone call took place between the two leaders and that such reports are baseless. At a July 2021 conference in Tashkent, Ghani accused Pakistan of fomenting violence in Afghanistan through the Taliban; Pakistan accused Afghanistan of helping insurgent groups inside Pakistan (the Tehreek-e-Taliban and the Balochistan Liberation Army).

One of Ghani's major objectives was to improve South Asian ties to transform the region's economy. On his first official visit to India he envisioned "breakfast in Delhi, lunch in Peshawar, and dinner in Kabul–that's the world we seek!" He voiced the idea that a stable Afghanistan can act as a bridge between Central, South, and West Asia, given the country's centrist location.

Ghani had strong ties with Indian prime minister Narendra Modi. After Ghani's escape from Afghanistan, Modi spoke of his friendship with him on NPR.

Relations with Taliban
In an interview with Vice News, Ghani said that his 'heart breaks for [the] Taliban'. He further stated that 'Talibans are Afghans and he is president of all Afghans'. Ashraf Ghani also said that he is willing to offer Afghan passports to the Taliban and to recognise them as a legitimate political group in Afghanistan, as an attempt to strike a peace deal with them.

In March 2021, in an attempt to advance peace talks, Ghani expressed his intentions of convincing the Taliban to hold fresh elections and allow forming of a new government through a democratic process.

Ghani blamed the Taliban for the 2021 Kabul school bombing, but Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid denied involvement in the attack, in a message released to the media. Many of the Kabul residents held Ghani responsible for the attack and raised loud chants against the Afghan government and security forces.

On 2 August 2021, Ghani blamed the sudden withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan for the advance of the Taliban and said the latter had not cut ties with terrorist organizations and had escalated attacks against women, which the Taliban denied. On 11 August 2021, Ghani appealed to local warlords and private militias to fight the Taliban and also appealed to a popular uprising against the Taliban. On the same day, Pakistani prime minister Imran Khan reported that the Taliban would not negotiate or hold peace talks with the government as long as Ghani remains as the president.

Flight from Afghanistan
The Taliban took control of Afghanistan on 15 August and Ghani was deposed. That day, Ghani left Afghanistan with his wife and two close aides to Uzbekistan as the Taliban captured Kabul. The Arg, the presidential palace, was captured a few hours later by the group. Afghan officials stated that Ghani had left the presidential palace Sunday morning to go to the US embassy. He has since been described as the former president. A senior cabinet minister said that Ghani fled to Tajikistan, however it was then claimed that he landed in Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan.

Later that day, Ghani wrote on his Facebook that he thought it was better for him to leave in order to avoid bloodshed and called on the Taliban to protect civilians and said the Taliban now faced a "historic test". On 18 August 2021, the United Arab Emirates acknowledged that Ghani and his family were in that country for "humanitarian considerations." He was granted stay by the government on humanitarian grounds.

On 17 August, the Taliban announced that they were actively working to form a government that would be announced over the coming days. The same day, first vice president Amrullah Saleh asserted that he was acting president, claiming that if the president is absent, escapes, resigns or dies then the first vice president becomes acting president. In an 18 August taped address from the UAE, Ghani said he fled to avoid being hanged, and vowed to eventually return to Afghanistan.

Former MP Elay Ershad, who had worked as Ghani's spokeswoman, was scathing in criticism. She said he was "gutless" for fleeing the country. Afghanistan's Ambassador to Tajikistan, Mohammad Zahir Aghbar, stated that Interpol should apprehend Ghani for embezzling public funds. The Russian embassy in Kabul alleged that Ghani fled with "four cars and a helicopter" full of cash and had to leave some money behind as it would not all fit in. Ashraf Ghani, speaking on 18 August 2021 in UAE, has stated that the accusations are baseless. To this day, no evidence of the accusation has been presented. A former senior official stated that Ghani left in haste. He said "He went to Termez in Uzbekistan, where he spent one night and then from there to the UAE (United Arab Emirates). There was no money with him. He literally just had the clothes he was wearing."

On 8 September 2021, Ghani released a video where he apologized to the Afghan people and repeated that he left to avoid "bloody street fighting". He also strongly denied stealing money from the country when he fled. Ghani said that "leaving Kabul was the most difficult decision of my life, but I believed it was the only way to keep the guns silent and save Kabul and her 6 million citizens."

The United Nations removed Ghani's name from its list of heads of state on 15 February 2022. In May 2022, the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) released a report on the collapse of the Afghan National Army (ANA) and the Afghan government. The SIGAR described Ghani as a "paranoid president... afraid of his own countrymen" and that many of Ghani's dismissals of top military generals "undermined morale" of the ANA. The SIGAR report also reported that Ghani feared that the US was "plotting a coup" against him.

SIGAR released a report on 9 August 2022 on the investigation of Ghani's flight from Kabul. The report could not corroborate the Russian embassy's claim that he fled with bags of millions of dollars, but added that it was "unlikely to be true" that he and his aides "managed to pack tens of millions in cash", citing difficulties in vehicular transportation, helicopter load, and the short period of time. On the anniversary of Ghani's departure, he commented: "The reason I left was because I did not want to give the Taliban and their supporters the pleasure of yet again humiliating an Afghan president and making him sign over the legitimacy of the government [...] I've never been afraid. You've seen repeatedly rockets have landed around me and I've not moved. And it was a split second decision because they'd entered Kabul and the US embassy had already (been) evacuated."

He also rejected once again the reported millions of cash he flew in, citing a SIGAR report from June 2022 which found that the rumored amount would have been difficult to conceal: "it would be somewhat larger than a standard American three-seater couch. This block would have weighed 3,722 pounds, or nearly two tonnes. The Mi-17 helicopters that the group flew on do not have separate cargo holds. Therefore, all of the cargo would have been visible in the cabin next to the passengers."

Many people contrast Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy - who vowed not to flee from Ukraine over the ongoing Russian invasion - to President Ghani and his decision to flee Afghanistan.

Political views
Ghani is a progressive modernist with the belief and goal to "transform Afghanistan from a tribal, patronage-based society to a modern technocratic state". He is a fond admirer of both King Amanullah Khan, who was a progressive Afghan monarch in the 1920s, and General Sardar Mohammad Daoud Khan, a former prime minister of the Kingdom of Afghanistan, who served as the first president of the Republic of Afghanistan in the 1970s.

Personal life
Ashraf Ghani is married to Rula Saade, who was born into a Lebanese Christian family. The couple married after they met during their studies at the American University of Beirut, Lebanon during the 1970s. They eventually settled in the United States and obtained U.S. citizenship. However, Ghani renounced his U.S. citizenship in 2009 so he could run in Afghan elections.

Ashraf and Rula Ghani have two children, a daughter, Mariam, a Brooklyn-based visual artist, and a son, Tarek, who was a national security and foreign policy advisor to 2020 presidential candidate, Pete Buttigieg. Both were born in the United States and carry U.S. citizenship and passports. In an unusual move for a politician in Afghanistan, Ghani at his presidential inauguration in 2014 publicly thanked his wife, acknowledging her with an Afghan name, Bibi Gul. "I want to thank my partner, Bibi Gul, for supporting me and Afghanistan," he said. "She has always supported Afghan women and I hope she continues to do so."

Ashraf Ghani also owns 200 acres of land in Surkhab area of Logar province. Abdul Baqi Ahmadzai, who is close to Ashraf Ghani, claims that Ashraf Ghani inherited a lot of land from his father. However, Ashraf Ghani bought this 200 acres of land separately in Logar province.

Ghani lost most of his stomach after developing cancer in the 1990s. It is said that Ghani wakes up every morning before five, and reads for two to three hours.

He is the older brother of Hashmat Ghani Ahmadzai, an Afghan politician who is the Grand Council Chieftain of the Kuchis. Unlike his brother, Hashmat Ghani did not flee Afghanistan. When interviewed, he said, "If I were to flee what would become of my people, my tribe. My roots are here, what kind of message would that send if I just fled and left my people in their time of need?"

Controversy
On 2 February 2020, Ashraf Ghani made controversial remarks while talking about Timur and Muhammad of Ghor which angered the Uzbek population of Afghanistan. He made those remarks while delivering a speech to a group of Afghan students on History, Culture, and the National Identity. Ghani stated that Muhammad of Ghor destroyed Afghanistan's central irrigation system while Genghis Khan demolished the irrigation system of the northern provinces. Ghani also referred to Turkic conqueror Amir Timur by his Persian-origin epithet "Timur Lang" (Timur the Lame) and stated that Timur wiped-out the irrigation system for Sistan, Farah, and Helmand provinces. His remarks regarding Timur were considered offensive to Uzbeks, according to experts, and drew condemnation from Afghanistan's Uzbek population.

Following his remarks, residents of Faryab province staged protests and demanded an apology from Ashraf Ghani. The protesters threatened that they would take serious action if Ghani did not apologize for his remarks. Abdul Rashid Dostum, former vice president of Afghanistan and an ethnic Uzbek, also demanded an apology from Ashraf Ghani. Bashir Ahmad Tahyanj, spokesperson of the National Islamic Movement of Afghanistan, said that "Ghani has a personal bias towards historic figures, honorable ethnicities, the history and culture of the people who live in Afghanistan. This is not his first time." However, in a statement, the Afghan government palace defended Ghani's remarks and stated that "what Ghani said about Timur was not offensive or insulting".

Publications
Ghani is the coauthor with Clare Lockhart of Fixing Failed States: A Framework for Rebuilding a Fractured World (2008). Along with Lockhart, he was listed on the 'Top 100 global thinkers list' for 2010 by Foreign Policy.

title: Ashraf Ghani


text:
New Castile (Spain)

New Castile (Castilla la Nueva ) is a historic region of Spain. It roughly corresponds to the medieval Moorish Taifa of Toledo, taken during the Reconquista of the peninsula by Christians and thus becoming the southern part of Castile. The extension of New Castile was formally defined after the 1833 territorial division of Spain as the sum of the following provinces: Ciudad Real, Cuenca, Guadalajara, Madrid and Toledo.

Key to the reconquest of New Castile were the capture of Toledo in 1085, ending the Taifa's Kingdom of Toledo, and the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212. It continued to be formally called Kingdom of Toledo even though it was under the Crown of Castile. Then it started to be called New Castile in the 18th century.

New Castile is separated from Old Castile to the north by the Sistema Central range of mountains. In the current territorial division of Spain, it covers the autonomous communities of Madrid and Castile–La Mancha (which also includes Albacete).

title: New Castile (Spain)