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Talk:Cetacean intelligence/Archive 1

I have sectioned the discussion so a TOC shows up ... -- Miguel

Khranism
''Dolphins can create air bubble rings and helices in water. ''

Where did this picture come from? I ask because i suspect it might not be suppoerting the above assertion. I've seen a tv program ( sorry cant remeber anymore than that) where a human blew the wiered bubble and the dolphin watched it rise. I suspect that this photo might by of a similar incident. Theresa knott 11:26, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * A quick google for (dolphin bubble ring) came up with which seems pretty good to me. There was a load of other possibles also. Phil 11:58, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)

 * Wow! I stand corrected. Thanks Phill. Theresa knott 14:04, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I removed the link to the 8-fold theory of Leary because it was hidden, which is generally bad form, and I couldn't perceive of a reason to connect the two ideas. I assume the contention is that dolphins are capable of perception higher on the scale than humans, but if so, this idea should be stated outright and credited to its proponents, not insinuated by subtle linking. I also removed the link to quantum mechanics for similar reasons. If there is a link between the subject of dolphin intelligence and quantum mechanics, then that link should be described.

I also removed the following:
 * AquaThought Foundation and David Cole have found that after humans are in contact with dolphins, the dominant human brain frequency drops from beta to alpha, closer to the frequency of the Schumann resonances of Earth, and the hemispheres of the human brain become synchronized, in that brainwaves of the left and right hemispheres are in phase and of similar frequency.

Because it seemed tacked-on to the end instead of integrated, and doesn't make much sense to me. What are the implications of this? Tuf-Kat 09:22, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

I subtley linked other articles to this one because it encourages people to make the connections themselves, based on their own ideas, thus increasing the level of originality in their thought-patterns.

 * Wikipedia is not the place to do this. Tuf-Kat 06:40, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by it being 'tacked-on to the end', and I don't see what doesn't make sense about it to you... Perhaps you should try making some connections yourself--perhaps then it will begin to make sense. (isn't that the whole point of asking questions? The entire purpose of science? to seek answers which you do not yet have, rather than merely ignoring the paranormal (e.g. the EPR paradox)?) Khranus

 * It doesn't make sense because it doesn't explain what alpha and beta waves are, what kind of contact is required (proximity, touch...), what else, if anything, can cause this change, what the Schumann resonances are and why anybody should care about their brain waves being in sync with them, or why and in what way parts of the brain can become synchronized (or unsynchronized) and what the connection is between the frequency of the brain approaching the Schumann resonances and the harmonization of the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Most importantly, it makes no claims regarding any real-world effects of these changes -- does this make people angry, sad, happy, tired, dead, blind, stupid, smart...?
 * In response to your requests, the purpose of an encyclopedia article is not to encourage people to do anything. If you want to make an encyclopedia that has the added use of raising people's ability to make connections, you have my blessing.  That is not Wikipedia.  Here, statements should mean exactly what they say, no more and no less.  A paragraph that throws jargon around to describe a study, leaving the implication only that it somehow proves that dolphins are smart, or make people smart or some other vague assertion, has no place in this article. Tuf-Kat 06:40, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

What is factual accuracy?
Just curious, but why, exactly, is the 'factual accuracy' of this article disputed? And where exactly is this dispute? I don't see any evidence of a dispute on this talk page--merely a couple explanations for edits... Perhaps you just don't personally like it? In that case, the notice at the top of the page should be removed... Khranus

If it's cited sources you want, some of this information comes from the research of Dr. John C. Lilly... A large amount of it is commonly known among marine biologists who study dolphins... Khranus

Yes please! Cites would be good. -- The Anome 01:11, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

So is it merely a personal issue, or what? Does anyone besides you have a problem with this article? Khranus
 * I agree with the disclaimer's presence. Tuf-Kat 06:40, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, I do have a problem with this article. It is largely a collection of speculative ideas and poorly documented assertions about the anatomical features. See below and see my changes to the article. I have not researched the matter (may try to find out more if I find the time), but if even the basics (what's a "sub-brain", please? In anatomy, there are hemispheres and lobes) are that inaccurate and poorly documented, I don't expect much insight here. Kosebamse 07:30, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Some specific criticism below. Kosebamse 07:30, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The two eyes of the dolphin are each connected to one of the two sub-brains, just like other mammals have one eye connected to each hemisphere. (removed from article)

Very unclear and way too simple. The optical tract cannot accurately be described by saying that each "sub-brain" (intendend to mean hemisphere?) is connected to one eye.

 * Sometimes you have to simplify. Sometimes, if you don't, things get very convoluted, and not very interesting. And in terms of the word 'sub-brain', please, don't be such a formalist.  Sometimes you just have to make up new words--that's how language was invented to begin with (and Shakespeare made up quite a few words, last time I checked)Khranus

 * But you don't have to oversimplify. You can't describe the optical tract without mentioning the chiasma opticum and its function. And in describing the anatomy of a brain, it's best to use appropriate terminology instead of fuzzy neologisms so that experts can understand what you mean. Kosebamse

Dolphins may be able to use focussed sound to produce cavitation.

Or they may not. References, please?

 * Based on the effect given. If you don't even know what cavitation is, I suggest you don't speak up about it. Khranus

 * I know what cavitation is. Where and how has it been documented that dolphins can do this? Kosebamse

 * I think it's a case of "Khranus thinks they do, or thinks it would be amusing if they did." I'm fairly sure they don't use it for cold fusion though.  --Pakaran 05:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Their brain consists of two hemispheres divided into four lobes—very different from the human brain.

Judging by the picture attached, it seems that the basic structure is quite similar. There are two hemispheres (bottom) and a cerebellum (top). You might even mistake that picture for a human child's brain. Where does it come from, by the way?

 * If you could mistaken THAT picture for a human child's brain, I highly suggest you refresh your knowledge of anatomy. Khranus

 * At first glance, yes, it can indeed be mistaken for that. Could you please elaborate on the structure of dolphin brains (with illustrations please) to demonstrate in what way they differ from our brains? Kosebamse

Dolphins may need to have 2 brains because the maximum size for a single brain may be about 10^11 neurons, the size of the brain of single-brained humans.

Or they may not. References, please?

 * The GRW Dynamical Decoherence time Tgrw, which sets a threshold for consciousness phenomena at Tgrw_N = Tgrw / N, since GRW Dynamical Decoherence scales as 1 / N. Use the value Tgrw = 3 x 10^14 sec. You can find the intersection point of the Tgrw_N function with the T_N Tubulin Back-Reaction function by setting

 * T_N = (1 / 10 ) T_electron / N^(5/3) = 10^25 / N^(5/3) = Tgrw / N

so that the number of Tubulins N_BRgrw at the intersection point is

 * N_BRgrw = ( 10^25 )^(3/2) Tgrw ^(-3/2) = ( 10^25 )^(3/2) ( 3 x 10^14 )^(-3/2)

=

 * = ( 3 x 10^10 )^(3/2)
 * = 5 x 10^15 Tubulins.

 * From the above table, N_BRgrw Tubulins roughly corresponds to: 0.1 seconds, so that shorter-term phenomena must operate on a sub-conscious level; EEG alpha waves, about 4 x 10^9 Neurons (or about 4 percent of the 10^11 Neurons in a human brain); and a part of the brain about 1/6 of a centimeter in size. Khranus

 * Very well. Where is that from? Would you kindly explain what that means (without references to hidden knowledge or higher dimensions, please) so that an encyclopedia reader can understand it? Kosebamse

 * Decoherence is a well-established phenomenon in quantum theory. However, the idea that consciousness is related to quantum effects is very controversial and not substantiated by any evidence. -- Miguel

 * As a transhumanist, I run across these ideas all the time. The consensus seems to be that it's hard to be sure where consciousness "is" without resorting to religion.  It may involve quantum phenomena or some kind of computation that is infeasible without quantum computing, or it may not.  It's very hard to be sure.  -- Pakaran 05:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In order to proceed from claims and assertions to facts and discussion, one may also wish to review http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Myths/br-be-an.htm. 217.85.39.185

-

higher dimensions of reality
Perceiving higher dimensions of reality does not imply superior intelligence to humans overall... It has little to do with New Age beliefs, as well. There is evidence that bees perceive higher dimensions of reality, but no one thinks that they're smarter than humans, at least not on the individual level. Khranus

 * Very well. Would you mind answering my questions/comments above? Kosebamse 22:30, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I'll second that request plus add another of my own because I'm curious. What evidence is there that bees perceive higher dimensions of reality ? I mean how could we ever know anyway, what a bee perceives ? Please cite a reference theresa knott

 * In mapping a six-dimensional figure onto two-dimensions, Mathematician Barbara Shipman recognized the pattern as that of the honeybee's ritual  dance. To her, this implies that bees can sense the quantum world, since it  is in that realm that six-dimensional geometry has real meaning. The bees use the dance to communicate to others in the hive the location and distance of a pollen source:

"the dance that honey bees do to tell their hivemates where they have found a good food source. The bees change the form of the dance acording to the location of the flowers that constitute the source. The surprising thing is that there may be a deep mathematical reason for how the dance changes form. The reason is related to a space in symplectic geometry known as a "flag manifold." Although no one is suggesting that honey bees understand flag manifolds, it is possible that the instincts which control their behavior are wired in such a way that the principles of this kind of geometry apply."

- Khranus

I don't really care about the facts as long as everything is properly attributed. Who says dolphins are smarter than people? Ivan Tors, the creator of Flipper? Who says they have ESP? Who says they have language?

 * Dr. John C. Lilly, a prominent biologist who studied dolphins, as well as altered states of consciousness. Khranus

I dimly remember an experiment in which some researchers claimed they proved that one dolphin could communicate well enough with another to describe how to solve a puzzle. Something like, "press the red button to get the fish". Can someone dig that up?

 * Here's one of many perspectives on the matter: Dolphin Mental Abilities Paper Khranus

Hey, don't get me wrong: we all like whales and orcas and dolphins, and I'd love to have one for a pet. All I'm saying is let's divide "common knowledge" - which needs no references or citations - from controversial or novel claims - which need references and attribution. --Uncle Ed 23:04, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I suggest that people open their minds a little more... It seems that there are a lot of closed-minded people on this site (some often very irrational people)...  It would definitely be beneficial to this site if more people would be more open-minded...

Well, Atom has a pretty good site for summarising some concepts which are very well backed-up, but not so socially accepted--in general higher circuit material (stuff that's popular among philosophers, high-end scientists and mathematicians, but not nearly widely-known enough among the general populous)

FusionAnomaly

- Khranus

-

In terms of higher dimensions of reality and intelligence, one must only reference the olfactory abilities of the dog in relation to its overall creative intelligence in comparison to a human. Clearly it is leagues ahead of us in olfactory intelligence, but we are ahead of dogs in creative/abstract intelligence. There really isn't such a thing as 'general intelligence', only specific intelligences. (humans are very stupid in terms of most of our senses, and only moderately good even at our best sense, vision, but we are excellent at creating imaginary realities with our will/consciousness.) Khranus

Humano-centric POV
The main thing that appears fascinating about dolphins is their degree of intelligence in one of our own particularly good areas--language. They may even have a more complex potential for language than us (though we ourselves are tending toward a more visual/synaesthetic language, apparently), but of course probably haven't used it in the same manner that we have. It appears that dolphins are a rather backward species, despite their age (at over 20 million years), with no intentions to build cities or travel to other planets. One of the reasons for studying dolphin intelligence is to figure out ways of developing advanced technology for use by humans that expands our consciousness (think of how much an echolocation headset could help a diver in murky water, for instance. We need to listen to sci-fi writers more often, methinks) Khranus

---

I think that a lot of the controversy on this page arises from a simple human folly that pervades Western thought these days. That being--the folly of Humancentrism. Humans assume that they are top dog on this planet, and some go as far as to say that we are the ultimate species in the universe. All these claims seem ridiculous to me. First we must assume that tool-making is somehow the ultimate skill (which in itself is rather ridiculous), then we must assume that we are the ultimate toolmakers ever to evolve on this planet (for which there is evidence against. see Reptilian humanoid.), then we must assume that humans in general are equal in toolmaking ability to such great toolmakers as Tesla...

A great, holistic, spiritual way of viewing this folly is the work of Buddhist Priestess and Philosopher Ryoju Kikuchi (aka Tamo Samma, Tamo-San):

Moor the Boat

 * that they are equal or superior to humans in some form of intelligence. The popular television show Flipper, created by Ivan Tors, portrayed a dolphin in a friendly relationship with two boys, Sandy and Bud; kind of a sea-going Lassie, he seemed to understand human speech: "Go tell Dad we're in trouble, Flipper! Hurry!" The show's theme song contains the lyric no one you see/is smarter than he.

The connection, Khranus, is the claim that dolphins rival humans in intelligence. The show is an illustration of that claim.

People yearn for connection with a benevolent intelligence, whether it's God, space aliens, beings from a higher dimension, or aquatic mammals.

Many articles in Wikipedia are combination of speculation and hard fact. The trick is to classify them properly. If we can do that, we can foil the "corrupt" leaders who want to hide the truth! --Uncle Ed 23:46, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Fine... I don't believe in 'hard facts', however.  Everything is subject to change when new perceptions arise. Khranus

 * Scientists generally do believe in hard facts. We talk about a lot of beliefs as beliefs here.  See the article on any religion, or articles on things like free software or communism.  Science may never discover exactly how dolphins think, but if things are speculation, we should report them as such.  -- Pakaran 05:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Khranus, despite all your philosophical arguments about openmindedness, sixth-dimensions and whatnot, it would be nice if you could answer my questions/comments above so that we can go on elaborating facts to include in an encyclopedia; I'll rephrase them in short: Thanks, Kosebamse 06:40, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * What evidence is there that The two eyes of the dolphin are each connected to one of the two sub-brains, and how can one describe the optical tract without explaining the function of the chiasma?
 * Where and how has it been documented that dolphins can deliberately produce cavitation?
 * What are dolphin "sub-brains" and how do they relate to the established concepts of hemispheres and lobes? Could you please elaborate on the structure of dolphin brains (with illustrations please) to demonstrate in what way they differ from our brains?
 * What is the evidence for the claim that Dolphins may need to have 2 brains because the maximum size for a single brain may be about 10^11 neurons, the size of the brain of single-brained humans. What does your math mean? (And by the way, what's the size of an elephant or sperm whale brain? Just curious)
 * In the case of the sperm whale, it has a brain that weighs something like 7.8 kg, the largest known. This would, I might suspect, tend to make it unlikely that there's a weight limit on a single brain (if there were such a limit, my personal belief is it would relate to the ability of the blood to carry away heat and carry in oxygen - which is to say the limit would be in the hundreds of cubic meters, and tied to the size of the overall animal).  -- Pakaran 05:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Post-Khranism
From the page:
 * "Some people, including many New Agers, have claimed that dolphins are capable of perceiving higher dimensions of reality, or that they are equal or superior to humans in some form of intelligence.

 * It has been long-theorised that they have a complex language, which may consist of visual symbols as interpretations of high frequency sound waves."

Yes and, some people, including many medieval Christians, have claimed that cats are the familiars of witches. And some people, including many militia-men, have claimed that the Trilateral Commisiion secretly controls all world governments.

And, it has long been theorized that phlogiston is essential to combustion and burning.

Without some evidence beyond "lots of lay persons made guesses that X exists", this seems more suited to a page on New Agers or on speculative cognitive science/linguistics. orthogonal 01:17, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I will reinsert the accuracy dispute note pro tempore. Reason: it is not accepted anatomical terminology that is used here, indeed the language is so fuzzy that it is impossible to discuss facts as long as it is not clarified what exactly we are talking about (see my questions above). I might try to clarify this later, but for now I think the note should stay. Kosebamse 16:44, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

User:Pakaran has tried valiantly to hedge some of the more outrageous claims in the article, to wit:

 * Dolphins may need to have 2 brains because the maximum size for a single brain may be about 10^11 neurons, the size of the brain of single-brained humans. However, this is doubtful because creatures like elephants have only one brain, much larger than that of a human, as do the true whales.

I thank Pakaran, but, well, adding caviar to crap just wastes caviar. One could have other claims, and otehr hedges:
 * Dolphins may need to have two brains because one is hollow, and is used as a hideout by the Keebler eleves. However, this is doubtful because no other animal, for example chimpanzees have eleves hiding in their crania, not to mention the Keebler elves would not have room for their cookie factory in there. Which is just my way of saying that qualifying "New Age" mumbo-jumbo with the sort of sober sketicism applicable to real but unlikely scientific hypotheses doesn't fix this page.

The real solution is to delete the page. It isn't fixable.

 * Agree. There may be some bits that can stay, but the article needs to be rewritten from scratch. When I tried to argue with Khranus it was because a deletion of the page would have caused even more trouble with him (and also to to give him a chance of demonstrating his attitude to facts, scientific method etc., which he gratefully accepted, see above), but now he's gone it would be less work to rewrite. Also, I am not sure where the images are from, and they are not really needed, so methinks they should stay out. Kosebamse 07:14, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The dolphin really is a part of New Age beliefs as well as some coastal and island people. They are also, as I understand it, the smartest aquatic animal.  So, the subject deserves information, but I don't see why it can't be at dolphin, until such time as a separate article is needed. Tuf-Kat 07:28, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * Agreed. I've been having a hard time understanding why so many people want to rewrite it; I just don't know that there's enough real information about dolphin brains to justify it. Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps the idea is a defensive/blocking rewrite, so that a New Ager doesn't find an empty place into which to insert another dolphin brain article, but instead encounters an existing article that can be defended or reverted to.

 * Of course this is entirely separate from the beliefs of various peoples: if someone wants to write a page on Beliefs associated with Dolphins or The Centrality of Dolphins in New Age Thought or Dolphins and the Mythos of Coastal Peoples, then (conceivably), all the Dolphin brain bunkum might well be an accurate assessment of those beliefs.

 * But Dolphin brain discredits Wikipedia; had it been the first page I'd seen here, I'd have chuckled and never come back, thinking that Dolphin brain was what passed for "accuracy" at Wikipedia. And it's a double-edged sword: while warning away the careful, it serves to attract the credulous claimants of concocted counterfactual or conjectural creeds.

 * So let's rewrite it. And perhaps we should make it a pro tempore redirect to dolphin until there is something better? It is really bad PR for Wikipedia. I really don't know where to find good information for a rewrite and I don't know anything about non-human brains, but http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Myths/br-be-an.htm that I mentioned above (sorry could not log in then) could serve for a start. It loks like a nice article, but is published by an Norwegian organisation that seems to be pro-whaling, so should be reviewed with care. Another point: it might make sense to move to Cetacean brain or Whale brain, but I'm not sure about this. Kosebamse 09:23, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Ok, I've re-written the top half of the article, duplicating/confirming some of the information, and I have interspersed citations. I can't confirm the "two brains with separate blood supplies" but neither can I refute it. Blood supply to the whole brain does differ from terrestial animals, as it's supplied through the fused vetebrae, rather than via the neck, probably to avoid constriction on neck arteries during deep dives. Since this is tangential to brain qua brain, I've included it here and not in the article proper; if somebody feels it belongs, include it and try to dig up the cite. orthogonal 10:59, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Here's something that looks like it might be informative, though I have no access to it: McFarland WL, Jacobs MS, Morgane PJ. Blood supply to the brain of the dolphin, Tursiops truncatus, with comparative observations on special aspects of the cerebrovascular supply of other vertebrates. Neurosci Biobehav Rev 1979;3(Suppl 1):1-93 - Someone else 11:07, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw that too, and I too have no immediate access to it. orthogonal 11:26, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Since some of the information is duplicated in my treatment, I (for the moment, anyway) leave it to others to structure the article to their tastes. I don't think the "Function" section really needs to stay, as it's not about the brain per se but about the mechanical fucntion of creating noise -- as if an article on the human brain went in to a treatment of the lips. On the other hand, some will argue that it's all tied up with communication (bad speculation, in my opinion) or sensory modalities (more defensible).

 * I do (continue to, Cartago delenda est) think the left-field speculation section needs to be dumped. orthogonal 10:59, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Agree with that, would suggest dump almost all of the Khranistic stuff, even in it's quasi-NPOV form it's just bogus; the anatomical details might warrant some scrutiny though.Kosebamse 11:21, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Hey, I did my bit. ;) Get out your pruning shears. orthogonal 11:22, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I found some more at PubMed, here are the abstracts:     Will try to get more from the library, or perhaps somebody can get these articles elsewhere? Kosebamse 11:35, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The first ("[2]") is about how to CAT scan fossil cetacean skulls. Probbaly not really germane. The second ("[3]") is about sperm whales. Related but we can't really generalize from sperm whales to dolphins (scientists might, we can't). The third ("[4]") is about morphogenesis in harbour porpoises (Phocoena phocoena); again, I'd be afraid to generalize. The fourth ("[5]") is about Monodontidae, that is Narwhals and Beluga whales. All these might be useful for an article on cetacean brains in general. orthogonal 12:09, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Quite right, and I would not have suggested to use them as sources, but I guess there might be useful references in them (which don't show up in the abstracts, alas). And as I said before, we might be better off writing about cetacean brains in general, else we might end up by saying "the harbor porpoise has so and so may neurons but this and that dolphin has so and so many". What do you think? Kosebamse 12:17, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Ugh. I will not be writing about the cetacean brain. I just wanted to drop-kick Dolphin brain to /dev/null. You and others were determined to salvage it, and you were right, and I learned a little Googling for verifiable content. But frankly I'm out of my depth on this. I'm not a biologist, I'm not a comparitive neuroanatomist, and I'm not a cognitive scientist. (As an aside, my life is a pathetic catalog of failure -- but anyway.) I just noticed that Khranus's concoctions were way out in left field, and embarrassing, and I wanted to be rid of them. orthogonal 12:30, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Too bad. I'm neither a biologist etc. and don't feel particularly qualified to write more on the matter. It would help a lot if an expert came along and digged through this. And I would not burst in tears if this article were killed, but after all, it's not uninteresting, only seriously flawed in its current state. Kosebamse 12:37, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It's gotten a lot better than I'd thought possible a mere 24 hours ago. I may try posting on usenet if the rest isn't cleared up in a few days. The other reason I'm not big into a cetacean brain entry is just that I worry it would have a tendency to fall into naive anthropomorphism or kookery: people would tend to write of cetacean brain and cetacean behavior in terms of human braisn and behavior, or they'd decide the "noble whale" transcended "mere humanity" and ergo, must be in contact with the 8th dimension. Especially given that dolphins are echo-locators like bats, it's good to keep Nagel's "What Is it Like to Be a Bat?" in mind. (Not that I actually argee with Nagel's belief in irreducible subjectivity.) Doing any sort of comparitive behavior or camparitive neuroanatomy I think requires an adaptationist approach: it's like this because it's an adaptation to these forces in the species' evolutionary history. And that has to wait for competent scientists, not amateur encyclopediasts. You're a Bob Dylan fan too?

I totally agree that competent scientist are needed here - we currently have nothing more than a collection of factoids and Khranus' bogus. But I guess many will believe that this should stay because it is something instead of nothing. I am not so sure, though, but I am just another scientifically biased deletionist, so my view should not be regarded too relevant. Posting on usenet might be a good idea (is usenet still alive? I thought it's all drowned in spam). Let's just give it some more time, I'd say. And Dylan, Dylan rocks. Cheers, Kosebamse 13:12, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. The first version of this article seems to have been copied wholesale from http://www.organelle.org/organelle/orgrandom/OracleBeta85.html, making this article a copyvio. A look at the current revision shows little or nothing that looks like the first version, but we should root out anything that is even partially derived from the above. -- The Anome 22:29, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Good find! But not a wholesale copy: the orginal Wikipedia article didn't include this gem:
 * John Lilly also reported that on one occation he mentally asked questions of Dolphins, who appeared to him to respond by linking him with a dolphin group-mind, which, in turn, linked him to a larger Cetacean group-mind.

Where to go from here
I propose removing the remaining unverified business; if anyone wants to put it back in, and is willing to do what it takes to verify it and show their work, let them do so. orthogonal 23:02, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * While I agree there was a need to cut the speculation out of the original article, I rather think you have gone to the other extreme away from a sensible discussion of the dolphin brain or intelligence. Some comments

 * Firstly, The article ought to be called Dolphin Intelligence. Most people entering Wikipedia will be interested in an article on Dolphin Intelligence, not the Dolphin brain.user:Jwrosenzweig is correct that there is a need for an intro etc.

 * Second the article does not add any positive information in favour of high intelligence which does exist: ability to learn tricks, versatility, social skills, sign language, brain size/body weight comparisons to other species which puts Dolphins ahead of chimps though some way behind homo sapiens. etc.

 * Third any conclusion to the article will state that it is difficult to compare land dwelling species to ocean going species, and that dolphin intelligence is somewhere between humans and dogs, but we don't know.: ChrisG 17:51, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The point of Wikipedia is not, I think, to enumerate all the arguments for and against a controversial belief. The purpose of Wikipedia is to present verifiable and commonly accepted facts. So I'm not worruied about the lack of "positive information in favour of" a particular opinion. Enumerating arguments belongs only on a page that addresses Controveries over animal intelligence, not on a Dolphin brain page.

 * Modern science very much avoids making linear "ranks" of intelligence; this is a vestige of the medieval "Great Chain of Being", and simply has little basis in biology. So "ahead of", "between" and so forth are lay person's terms, and essentially a matter of opinion. Far more useful is to enumerate the various faculties of the species: it can do this, it doesn't do that, etc. This has the signal advantage of being concrete and verifiable.

 * As to learning "tricks", behaviorists are famous for teaching sophisticated "tricks" to rats and pigeons -- correlating this with "intelligence" is simply sophistry that re-defines the word "intelligence" without explicitly saying so.

 * I am unaware of any studies evaluating dolphin proficiency at sign language; I am also unaware of any limbs the dolphin would use to sign with. Chimp use of sign language is entirely controversial, with most mainstream scientists finding studies purporting its use by chimps at best unconvincing. orthogonal 18:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(response to Orthogonal interspersed)
 * The point of Wikipedia is not, I think, to enumerate all the arguments for and against a controversial belief. The purpose of Wikipedia is to present verifiable and commonly accepted facts. So I'm not worruied about the lack of "positive information in favour of" a particular opinion. Enumerating arguments belongs only on a page that addresses Controveries over animal intelligence, not on a Dolphin brain page.orthogonal 18:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Orthagonal, Wikipedia does explain controversies and therefore arguments for and against. The point is that you can do this or at least after knocking an article back and forth you can do this with NPOV. It is factual after all to say that an argument exists. It is hard to state facts about dolphins because they are so inaccessible in the natural domain. In order to say anything interesting to you have to express the different arguments: ChrisG 19:23, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Modern science very much avoids making linear "ranks" of intelligence; this is a vestige of the medieval "Great Chain of Being", and simply has little basis in biology. So "ahead of", "between" and so forth are lay person's terms, and essentially a matter of opinion. Far more useful is to enumerate the various faculties of the species: it can do this, it doesn't do that, etc. This has the signal advantage of being concrete and verifiable.orthogonal 18:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * True as far as it goes. But in arguing that you are heading along the road of preventing any form of comparison of anything at all. Brain size/body weight is no longer considered a definitive indicator, because of flaws, but it remains a highly suggestive one. And are facts, and as long as the limits of such comparisons are pointed out are useful to the reader. : ChrisG 19:23, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * As to learning "tricks", behaviorists are famous for teaching sophisticated "tricks" to rats and pigeons -- correlating this with "intelligence" is simply sophistry that re-defines the word "intelligence" without explicitly saying so.orthogonal 18:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it is still a form of intelligence, though obviously not a seriously important one from the example of birds. However, as I mention in the article there are studies that dolphins are capable of learning to learn, which are far more suggestive, thogh again these studies are controversial:ChrisG 19:23, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I am unaware of any studies evaluating dolphin proficiency at sign language; I am also unaware of any limbs the dolphin would use to sign with. Chimp use of sign language is entirely controversial, with most mainstream scientists finding studies purporting its use by chimps at best unconvincing. orthogonal 18:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * The studies I remember relate to the dolphins ability to understand us, not the other way round. And yes such studies are controversial, and so it should be stated, and the caveats made, but such studies do exist. :ChrisG 19:23, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

My proposal
While not a scientist, I have done some amount of reading in cognition, and so I attempted to rework the page (using much of what was there)--it can be seen here. Please change it if you like. Major changes: I added an introduction (current page sorely lacks), clarified and simplified much of the body, moved a source credit to the end because it interrupted the flow, and cut a lot of stuff about how dolphins talk because dolphin language is a related but seperate issue. I'm hoping enough of you wil like it (and edit it, too!) so that it can be pasted here. Thanks! Jwrosenzweig 00:21, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * No offense, but your version still contains some problem speculation. I've noted one in its discussion page. orthogonal 01:20, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * This is a belated response to Jwrosenzweig proposal. I very much support his proposal. See above. I began editing the article yesterday merging the best bits from his version, and most of them were IMO better than the existing text which was just a list of facts with no connecting structure. I apologise for not distinctly stating I was using his version in the page history. : ChrisG 20 Nov 2003

 * I don't like the title: it is easier to be factual and stick to the NPOV when talking about the dolphin brain than about dolphin intelligence. Mind you, I do believe that dolphins are highly intelligent, and if you push me I'll say that they might actually be sentient, but I wouldn't write an encyclopedia article about dolphin intelligence. On the other hand, an article about the brain seems reasonable to me. -- Miguel 2003 Nov 20

I did a quick review of some literature and thought these two links might be useful for someone who can actually decipher them and this one just because its interesting - Melody 09:30, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Melody, those links are password protected, proabbly because your uni's license to distribute them only extends to students and faculty at qut. orthogonal 06:52, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

With all due respect for User:ChrisG's intention's, I think the conclusion, while perhaps appropriate in a report. is inappropriate in an encyclopedia. Nor do I think we need to bend over backward to admit the mere possibility of unproven assertions by New Agers. Let's take a "just the facts" approach, and let the reader speculate as he will. orthogonal 18:20, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

From Votes for Deletion:
unverfied speculation, pseudo-scientific nonsense. An embarassment to Wikipedia. orthogonal 15:43, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep . Speaking as a non-expert on neurophysiology, it seems to me totally legitimate, mostly composed of neuroanatomy facts and maybe a little speculation at the end. History shows some edit wars that have since settled on an evidently acceptable form. And as a wannabe scientist, it doesn't seem in the least "pseudo-scientific nonsense". At18 19:28, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Can you show me in what scientifically reputable publication there is evidence for
 * Dolphin brains appear to be composed of two similar sub-brains, each of which has two hemispheres, so dolphins might be said to have 4-lobed brains....each of the two dolphin sub-brains has an independent blood supply. orthogonal 22:20, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. it appears that I was too quick. A Google search turned out many peculiar sites but nothing legit. I retire my vote. At18 23:00, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. "Dolphin brain" is a legitimate topic for an article. Correct any factual errors, but don't delete. The article already contains a notice that the factual accuracy is dispute. -- Miguel
 * Seems like we have to keep the article. Probably just needs work to remove any non-factual material - Marshman 04:36, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It has a LOT of Khranal influence, though.  I'll try and work on it tonight...  the problem is knowing what is and isn't true...  -- Pakaran 04:42, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable to keep, but I suggest we cut out anything suspect and let the article build up again. DJ Clayworth 15:24, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I have posted a semi-major rewrite here and noted it on the Dolphin brain talk page also. Please comment me on my talk page or just edit the replacement--perhaps it will resolve the deletion issue. Jwrosenzweig 00:25, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC) Never mind--another user took half the good stuff I wrote and added it into the article, and the other half ain't worth bothering about. Jwrosenzweig 00:32, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep, but please fix. Daniel Quinlan 00:39, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)

"suggestions that dolphins are even superior to humans in their mental abilitie": who is suggesting this? Cite please. orthogonal 07:54, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Self-awareness vs. conciousness
I am moving the following paragraph here from the main article:

 * Moreover, even if one accepted the conclusions drawn from the research it is not clear what self awareness really means. Does self awareness equate to consciousness? Consciousness and self awareness are scarcely understood qualities of human beings, and so it is difficult to make meaningful comments about self awareness between species. Nevertheless, only human beings, great apes and dolphins have been shown to exhibit self awareness in any scientific studies.

I agree with what I think the paragraph is trying to say, but I would avoid the issue of consciousness entirely because it is too muddled, even for humans. Self-awareness as defined by the "test" is a clear, empirical question, and the controversy over the validity of the test can be easily and succinctly summarized. -- Miguel

In the literature the three themes - brain size and mass, cognitive skill and behaviour in the wild are treated under the name "intelligence" (or lack of it as the case may well be). So it is best to have this article there. Of course, the redirect is kept. Also "dolphin brain" seems to be quite an ugly phrase.

title: Talk:Cetacean intelligence/Archive 1


text:
Erasure poetry

Erasure poetry, or blackout poetry, is a form of found poetry or found object art created by erasing words from an existing text in prose or verse and framing the result on the page as a poem. The results can be allowed to stand in situ or they can be arranged into lines and/or stanzas.

Writers and visual artists have adopted this form both to achieve a range of cognitive or symbolic effects and to focus on the social or political meanings of erasure. Erasure is a way to give an existing piece of writing a new set of meanings, questions, or suggestions. It lessens the trace of authorship but also draws attention to the original text.

History
Doris Cross appears to have been among the earliest to utilize this technique, beginning in 1965 with her "Dictionary Columns" book art. Other examples before 1980 include:
 * A Humument, Tom Phillips' 1970 major work of book art and found poetry deconstructed from a Victorian novel.
 * Radi Os, Ronald Johnson's, long 1977 poem deconstructed from the text of Milton's Paradise Lost.
 * Mans Wows – Jesse Glass' Mans Wows (1981), is a series of poems and performance pieces mined from John George Hohman's book of charms and healings Pow Wows, or The Long Lost Friend.

The poetic form gained new political purpose online in 2017.

The tradition of concrete poetry and the works of visual artists such as d.a. levy have some relationship to this artform.

Government and military secrecy
Jenny Holzer's Redaction Paintings consists of enlarged, colorized silkscreen "paintings" of declassified and often heavily censored American military and intelligence documents that have recently been made available to the public through the Freedom of Information Act. The works are intended as reminders of the editing or erasure that goes on behind the scenes in the American military/political power system. Documents address counter-terrorism, prisoner abuse, and the threat of Osama bin Laden. Some of the documents are almost completely inked out, like Colin Powell's memo on Defense Intelligence Agency reorganization.

Anthropologist Michael Powell writes: "While the literal act of redaction attempts to extract information and eradicate meaning, the black marker actually transforms the way we read these documents, sparking curiosity and often stirring skeptical, critical, and even cynical readings. As redacted government documents make their way from government bureaus into the hands of citizens, a peculiar transformation seems to take place, one that seems to create a paranoia within reason."

Seven Testimonies (redacted) – Nick Flynn's "Seven Testimonies (redacted)" in The Captain Asks a Show of Hands, is an erasure of the testimonies from prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

Holocaust
Jonathan Safran Foer's 2010 Tree of Codes is a book-length erasure of The Street of Crocodiles by Bruno Schulz. Schulz was killed by an officer of the Gestapo during the Nazi occupation of his hometown Drohobycz, after distributing the bulk of his life's work to gentile friends immediately prior to the occupation. All of these manuscripts have been lost. The Tree of Codes is Safran-Foer's attempt to represent the unrepresentable loss which occurred in the Holocaust by deleting text, rather than by writing another book about the Holocaust as a historical subject or context for a work of fiction. Safran-Foer's approach to the Holocaust as an "unrepresentable subject" recalls the use of negative space in the poetry of Dan Pagis.

Freedom and Slavery
Poet Laureate Tracy K. Smith has written several erasure poems, including "Declaration" (drawn from the Declaration of Independence) and "The Greatest Personal Privation" (from letters about slaveholding).

Poet Nicole Sealey wrote The Ferguson Report: An Erasure, a book length erasure of the Ferguson Report which comments on the Killing of Michael Brown and the subsequent Ferguson unrest. Her poem "Pages 22–29, an excerpt from the book, won a Forward Prize for Poetry in October 2021.

Indigenous erasure poetry
Poets such as Jordan Abel and Billy-Ray Belcourt have engaged in erasure poetry to mirror the erasure of Indigenous peoples from history. Through working to erase existing texts such as Treaty 8 in "NDN Coping Mechanisms" by Billy-Ray Belcourt and "Totem Poles" by Canadian ethnographer Marius Barbeau in "The Place of Scraps" by Jordan Abel these two poets "make and unmake texts" the way Indigenous histories have been made and unmade by colonialist influences.

Other examples

 * 20, Jennifer Roche's erasure poetry of Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas published by Alternating Current Press (2020).
 * A Little White Shadow – Mary Ruefle's A Little White Shadow is a book-length erasure (done by painting over select words of a 19th-century book).
 * ALL KINDS OF FUR (2018) by Margaret Yocom erases her translation of "All Kinds Of Fur", a tale from the Brothers Grimm (a version of Cinderella that opens with incest), to reveal how the heroine, All Kinds Of Fur, would tell her own story.
 * Be Brave: An Unlikely Manual for Erasing Heartbreak by J. M. Farkas is a book-length erasure of Beowulf.
 * Mans Wows – Jesse Glass' Mans Wows (1981), is a series of poems and performance pieces mined from John George Hohman's book of charms and healings Pow Wows, or The Long Lost Friend.
 * Darkness erases Joseph Conrad's novella, "whiting out" his text so that only images of the natural world remain, by Poet Yedda Morrison, Published 2012.
 * Erasing Infinite – Jenni B. Baker creates erasure poetry from David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest, one page at a time.
 * Hope Tree – Frank Montesonti's Hope Tree is a book of erasure poems based on R. Sanford Martin's How to Prune Fruit Trees.
 * Nets – Jen Bervin's Nets is an erasure of Shakespeare's sonnets.
 * Of Lamb – Matthea Harvey's Of Lamb is a book-length erasure of a biography of Charles Lamb.
 * Psaumes - Un sépulcre et toujours un nom, published by Les Gens du blâme Éditions - A Psaumes Book effacement (2018)
 * R E D – Chase Berggrun's R E D is a book-length erasure of Bram Stoker's Dracula.
 * "Regression," a short story in Tell Me What You See (2022) by Terena Elizabeth Bell, uses erasure to show the progression of Alzheimer's disease from the patient perspective.
 * Sacrilegious: Poems & Prose (Fahmidan Publishing & Co., 2021) is a chapbook by poet Chris L. Butler that contains erasures of various songs from the rapper Tupac Shakur in memory of the 25th anniversary of his death.
 * "Sand Opera"-Philip Metres's book on the War on Terror includes erasures of Abu Ghraib prisoner testimonies, the Standard Operation Procedure manual for the Guantanamo Bay prison, and other sources.
 * The ms of my kin (2009) erased the poems of Emily Dickinson written in 1861–62, the first few years of the Civil War, to discuss the contemporary Iraq War by Janet Holmes
 * The O Mission Repo – Travis Macdonald's The O Mission Repo treats each chapter of The 9/11 Commission Report with a different method of poetic erasure.
 * The Place of Scraps (2013) is a book of erasure poetry by Nisga'a writer Jordan Abel.
 * Voyager – Srikanth Reddy's Voyager is another book-length erasure, of Kurt Waldheim's autobiography.
 * [where late the sweet] BIRDS SANG by poet Stephen Ratcliffe is an erasure of Shakespeare's sonnets published by O Books (1989).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Erasure poetry


text:
User:Fenkys

fr:Utilisateur:Fenkys Hello.

I'm neuroscientist. I edit page on French Wikipedia.

pages on biology

 * cytology
 * Ion channel
 * Active transport

 * histology
 * biological tissue
 * epithelium
 * endothelial cell
 * connective tissue

 * famous biologist
 * Marcello Malpighi

title: User:Fenkys


text:
Robert Wadlow

Robert Pershing Wadlow (February 22, 1918 – July 15, 1940), also known as the Alton Giant and the Giant of Illinois, was an American man who was the tallest person in recorded history for whom there is irrefutable evidence. He was born and raised in Alton, Illinois, a small city near St. Louis, Missouri.

Wadlow's height was 8 ft while his weight reached 439 lbs at his death at age 22. His great size and his continued growth in adulthood were due to hypertrophy of his pituitary gland, which results in an abnormally high level of human growth hormone (HGH).

Early life

Wadlow was born in Alton, Illinois, on February 22, 1918, to Harold Franklin and Addie May (Johnson) Wadlow, and was the oldest of five children. He was taller than his father by age 8, and in elementary school a special desk was made for him. By the time of his graduation from Alton High School in 1936, he was 8 ft. He enrolled in Shurtleff College with the intention of studying law.

Adulthood

Wadlow required leg braces when walking and had little feeling in his legs and feet. He never used a wheelchair.

Wadlow became a celebrity after his 1936 U.S. tour with the Ringling Brothers Circus, appearing at Madison Square Garden and the Boston Garden in the center ring (never in the sideshow). During his appearances, he dressed in his everyday clothes and refused the circus's request that he wear a top hat and tails.

In 1938, he began a promotional tour with the International Shoe Company, which provided him shoes free of charge, again only in his everyday street clothes. Wadlow saw himself as working in advertising, not exhibiting as a freak. He possessed great physical strength until the last few days of his life.

Wadlow belonged to the Order of DeMolay, the Masonic-sponsored organization for young men, and was later a Freemason. By November 1939, Wadlow was a master mason under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Illinois A.F. and A.M.

One year before his death, Wadlow passed John Rogan as the tallest person ever recorded. On June 27, 1940 (18 days before his death), he was measured by doctors at 8 ft.

Death
On July 4, 1940, during a professional appearance at the Manistee National Forest Festival, a faulty brace irritated his ankle, leading to infection. He was treated with a blood transfusion and surgery, but his condition worsened and he died in his sleep on July 15.

His coffin measured 10 ft long by 2 ft wide by 2 ft deep, weighed over 1000 lbs, and was carried by twelve pallbearers and eight assistants. He was buried at Oakwood Cemetery in Alton, Illinois.

A life-size statue of Wadlow was erected opposite the Alton Museum of History and Art in 1986.

title: Robert Wadlow


text:
Pantun

Pantun (Jawi: ڤنتون) is a Malayic oral poetic form used to express intricate ideas and emotions. It generally consists of even-numbered lines and based on ABAB rhyming schemes. The shortest pantun consists of two lines better known as the pantun dua kerat in Malay, while the longest pantun, the pantun enam belas kerat have 16 lines. Pantun is a disjunctive form of poetry which always come in two parts, the first part being the prefatory statement called pembayang or sampiran that has no immediate logical or the narrative connection with the second or closing statement called maksud or isi. However, they are always connected by the rhymes and other verbal associations, such as puns and repeating sounds. There is also an oblique but necessary relationship and the first statement often turns out to be a metaphor for the second one. The most popular form of pantun is the quatrain (four lines), and the couplet (two-lines), which both featured prominently in the literature and modern popular culture.

The earliest literary records of pantun date back to the 15th century Malacca Sultanate, although some historians believe that pantun may be as old, or precedes the Classical Malay language itself, grew and spread during the Srivijaya era, where the founder of Malacca was from. Pantun during Malacca era was featured in the most important Malay literary text, the Malay Annals and is regarded as a high art and has been the integral part of classical Malay literature. It also thrived as a natural part in the daily communication of traditional Malay society and served as the important expressive tool in Malay songs, rituals, performing arts and in all form of storytelling.

Etymology
According to Za'aba, the word pantun is thought to evolve from the Malay word sepantun (Jawi: سڤنتون) meaning 'same as'. The word is used to signify a proverbial metaphor or simile, a type of figure of speech commonly found in traditional pantun or proverbs from classical Malay literature. The archaic meaning of pantun in Malay language also refers to a form of proverb used for indirect references, which has similar role to pantun as poetry, that are still generally created in styles portraying sindir (indirect references) and kias (analogies).

Other theory suggests that pantun originated from the word penuntun ('guider'), from noun-building prefix pe(n) and the verb tuntun (Jawi:تونتون) or 'to guide'. Alternatively, Brandstetter suggested that the word originates from tun and its similar sounding variants in Austronesian languages, with multiple meanings; Kapampangan tuntun ('well organized'), Tagalog tonton ('skillful arrangement'), Old Javanese tuntun ('thread'), atuntun ('well arranged'), matuntun ('to lead'), and Toba Batak pantun ('polite' or 'worthy of respect'). Winstedt supported this opinion, noting that in many Austronesian languages, words which suggest 'something set out in rows' gradually gain the new meaning of 'well-arranged words', in prose or in poetry. Ari Welianto suggested that pantun is originated from Minangkabau word of patuntun which means "guide".

History
Some scholars believe that pantuns predates literacy and maybe as old as the Malay language itself, Muhammad Haji Salleh believe that pantuns form grew and spread from Srivijaya, and most probably from around the city of Palembang or Malayu. When Palembang became more dominant, pantuns of the two cities would be known to each other's population, and while they used the same language, they were adversaries politically. Nevertheless, the tradition was known to have reached its refined form with the flowering of classical Malay literature from the 15th century. Notable literary works like Malay Annals and Hikayat Hang Tuah contain the earliest written examples of pantun.

For at least 500 years, pantun spread from Malay language through trade routes, ports, and migrations and became the most dynamic single literary form. Today, it is known in at least 40 dialects of Malay, and 35 non-Malay languages, in the Malay Peninsula and many of the islands of Maritime Southeast Asia. The popularity of pantun among hybrid communities like Peranakans, Chitty and Kristang people, signifies its preeminent position as a cultural symbol in the Malay world. A type of pantun called pantun berkait that consists of interwoven quatrains, was introduced to Western poetry in the 19th century by Ernest Fouinet and later popularised by Victor Hugo, that forms the basis of modern pantoum.

Tradition
The pantun originated as a traditional oral form of expression, manifesting the traditional Malay views of life and their surroundings, and utilized to express an endless range of emotions and ideas. As a symbol of Malay identity, pantuns are known to be the reflections of adat ('customs) and adab ('manners'). As Malay culture emphasised the importance of polite and indirect expressions, pantuns are generally created in styles portraying various forms of figurative language. Elements of metaphors, similes, symbols, personifications, eponyms, allusions, idioms and proverbs are abound in the elegantly compacted Malay pantuns.

In Malay culture, pantun is an important instrument of communication in various social, cultural, and economic activities. It is used traditionally to express feelings, to give advice, to exchange quizzes, and also to sweeten conversations. For example, pantuns are used in the customary verbal exchange in a Malay wedding (or engagement) ceremony, especially as part of the culturally sanctioned greetings between the representatives of the bridegroom and the bride upon their arrival at the bride house. As an expressive tool, pantuns are also used extensively in the lyrics of traditional Malay songs that tuned to the popular rhythms like Zapin, Inang and Joget. Other notable application of pantuns can be found as a structural support for art performances like Dondang sayang, Bangsawan, Mak yong, Mek Mulung and Dikir barat. The skill in performing these poems is to recite in a way to suggest a form of singing while at the same time conjure up the ability to engage in quick, witty and subtle dialogue.

Indonesia possesses a wealth of verbal art. A largely nonwritten tradition of reciting expressive, often witty quatrains called pantun is common in most Malay areas throughout the archipelago. Some pantun performances are narrative; the kentrung traditions of central and eastern Java, for instance, use pantun structure (which is called parikan) to recount religious or local historical tales to the accompaniment of a drum, although this appears to be modern adaptations, as writers from the early 20th century like H Overbeck and JJ De Hollander noted that a tradition similar to pantun did not exist in Javanese at that time. Indeed, much of Indonesia's traditional literature forms the foundation of complex mixed-genre performances, such as the Randai of the Minangkabau of western Sumatra, which blends instrumental music, dance, drama, and martial arts in ceremonial settings.

Description
In its most basic form, the pantun consists of a quatrain which employs an abab rhyme scheme. A pantun is traditionally recited according to a fixed rhythm and as a rule of thumb, in order not to deviate from the rhythm, every line should contain between eight and 12 syllables. "The pantun is a four-lined verse consisting of alternating, roughly rhyming lines. The first and second lines sometimes appear completely disconnected in meaning from the third and fourth, but there is almost invariably a link of some sort. Whether it be a mere association of ideas, or of feeling, expressed through assonance or through the faintest nuance of thought, it is nearly always traceable" (Sim, page 12). The pantun is highly allusive and in order to understand it, readers generally need to know the traditional meaning of the symbols the poem employs. An example (followed by a translation by Katharine Sim):

"I planted sweet-basil in mid-field Grown, it swarmed with ants, I loved but am not loved, I am all confused and helpless."

According to Sim, halai-Balai tempurung hanyut literally means 'a floating coconut shell at sixes and sevens'. Selasih ('sweet basil') implies 'lover', because it rhymes with the word for that, kekasih. Other frequently recurring symbols are the flower and the bee, indicating a girl and her lover, the squirrel (tupai) implying a seducer, and the water hyacinth (bunga kiambang) meaning love that will not take root. The pantun often makes use of proverbs as well as geographical and historical allusions, for example, the following poem by Munshi Abdullah:

"Singapore is a new country, Tuan Raffles has become its lord, Chinese jasmine, purple magnolia, A burgeon of flower in the dragon's mouth."

This alludes to the foundation of Singapore in 1819 by Sir Stamford Raffles. The last line means a girl who is protected by a powerful man, and Sim suggests this may refer to Raffles's wife Olivia.

Sometimes a pantun may consist of a series of interwoven quatrains, in which case it is known as a pantun berkait. This follows the abab rhyme scheme with the second and fourth lines of each stanza becoming the first and third lines of the following stanza. Finally, the first and third lines of the first stanza become the second and fourth lines of the last stanza, usually in reverse order so that the first and last lines of the poem are identical. This form of pantun has exercised the most influence on Western literature, in which it is known as the pantoum.

title: Pantun


text:
Denbighshire

Denbighshire (Sir Ddinbych ) is a county in the north-east of Wales. It borders the Irish Sea to the north, Flintshire to the east, Wrexham to the southeast, Powys to the south, and Gwynedd and Conwy to the west. Rhyl is the largest town, and Ruthin is the administrative centre. Its borders differ from the historic county of the same name.

Denbighshire has an area of 326 sqmi and a population of 95,800, making it sparsely populated. The most populous area is the coast, where Rhyl and Prestatyn form a single built-up area with a population of 46,267. The next-largest towns are Denbigh, Ruthin, and Rhuddlan, while St Asaph is its only city. All of these settlements are in the northern half of the county; the south is even less densely populated, and the only towns are Corwen and Llangollen.

The geography of Denbighshire is defined by the broad valley of the River Clwyd, which is surrounded by rolling hills on all sides except the north, where it reaches the coast. The Vale of Clwyd, the lower valley, is given over to crops, while cattle and sheep graze the uplands. The Clwydian Range in the east is part of the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.

This part of Wales contains the country's oldest known evidence of habitation – Pontnewydd (Bontnewydd-Llanelwy) Palaeolithic site has Neanderthal remains of some 225,000 years ago. The county is also home to several medieval castles, including Castell Dinas Brân, Denbigh, and Rhuddlan, as well as St Asaph Cathedral. Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod takes place in the town each July.

Formation
The main area was formed on 1 April 1996 under the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, from various parts of the county of Clwyd. It includes the district of Rhuddlan (formed in 1974 entirely from Flintshire), the communities of Trefnant and Cefn Meiriadog from the district of Colwyn (entirely Denbighshire) and most of the Glyndŵr district. The last includes the former Edeyrnion Rural District, part of the administrative county of Merionethshire before 1974, covering the parishes of Betws Gwerfil Goch, Corwen, Gwyddelwern, Llangar, Llandrillo yn Edeirnion and Llansanffraid.

Other principal areas including part of historical Denbighshire are Conwy, which picked up the remainder of 1974–1996 Colwyn, the Denbighshire parts of 1974–1996 Aberconwy, and Wrexham, which corresponds to the pre-1974 borough of Wrexham along with most of Wrexham Rural District and several parishes of Glyndŵr. Post-1996 Powys includes the historically Denbighshire parishes of Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant, Llansilin and Llangedwyn, which formed part of Glyndŵr district.

Early history
Researchers have found signs that Denbighshire was inhabited at least 225,000 years ago. Bontnewydd Palaeolithic site is one of the most significant in Britain. Hominid remains of probable Neanderthals have been found, along with stone tools from the later Middle Pleistocene.

Archaeology
In 2021 February, archaeologists from Aeon Archaeology announced a discovery of over 300 Stone Age tools and artifacts in Rhuddlan. They revealed scrapers, microliths, flakes of chert (a hard, fine-grained, sedimentary rock composed of microcrystalline or cryptocrystalline quartz), flints and other rudimentary tools. An expert, Richard Cooke, believes the lithic remains belonged to ancient peoples, who while passing through the area, made camp by the river more than 9,000 years ago.

Geography

 * See also List of places in Denbighshire.

The eastern edge of Denbighshire follows the ridge of the Clwydian Range, with a steep escarpment to the west and a high point at Moel Famau (1820 ft), which with the upper Dee Valley forms an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley – one of just five in the Wales. The Denbigh Moors (Mynydd Hiraethog) are in the west of the county and the Berwyn Range adjacent to the southern edge. The River Clwyd has a broad fertile Vale running from south–north in the centre of the county. There is a narrow coastal plain in the north which much residential and holiday-trade development. The highest point in the historic county was Cadair Berwyn at 832 m), but the boundary changes since 1974 make Cadair Berwyn North Top the highest point. Denbighshire borders the present-day principal areas of Gwynedd, Conwy County Borough, Flintshire, Wrexham County Borough, and Powys.

Rhyl and Prestatyn form a single built-up area in the north of the county, with a population of 46,267. They are immediately adjacent to the Kinmel Bay and Abergele built-up area in neighbouring Conwy, and at the eastern end of series of coastal resorts which that also includes Colwyn Bay and Llandudno further west.

Population
According to the 2021 United Kingdom census, Denbighshire's population was approximately 95,800. According to previous censuses, the population of Denbighshire was 93,734 in 2011 and 93,065 in 2001. The largest towns on the coast are Rhyl (2001 population c. 25,000) and Prestatyn (2001 population c. 18,000). According to the 2011 Census returns, 24.6 per cent stated they could speak Welsh.

Economy
Since the 20th-century demise of the coal and steel industries in the Wrexham area, there is no heavy industry in the county. Although most towns have small industrial parks or estates for light industry, the economy is based on agriculture and tourism. Much of the working population is employed in the service sector. The uplands support sheep and beef cattle rearing, while in the Vale of Clwyd dairy farming and wheat and barley crops predominate. Many towns have livestock markets and farming supports farm machinery merchants, vets, feed merchants, contractors and other ancillaries. With their incomes on the decline, farmers have found opportunities in tourism, rural crafts, specialist food shops, farmers' markets and value-added food products.

The upland areas with their sheep farms and small, stone-walled fields are attractive to visitors. Redundant farm buildings are often converted into self-catering accommodation, while many farmhouses supply bed and breakfast. The travel trade began with the arrival of the coast railway in the mid-19th century, opening up the area to Merseyside. This led to a boom in seaside guest houses. More recently, caravan sites and holiday villages have thrived and ownership of holiday homes increased. Initiatives to boost the economy of North Wales continue, including redevelopment of the Rhyl seafront and funfair.

Transport
The North Wales Coast Line running from Crewe to Holyhead is served by Transport for Wales and Avanti West Coast services. Trains leaving Crewe to pass through Chester, cross the River Dee into Wales, and continue through Flint, Shotton, Holywell Junction (closed in 1966), Prestatyn, Rhyl, and stations to Bangor and Holyhead, which has a ferry service to Ireland.

There are no motorways in Denbighshire. The A55 dual carriageway runs from Chester through St Asaph to the North Wales coast at Abergele, then parallel to the railway through Conwy and Bangor to Holyhead. The A548 run from Chester to Abergele through Deeside and along the coast, before leaving the coast and terminating at Llanrwst. The main road from London, the A5, passes north-westwards through Llangollen, Corwen and Betws-y-Coed to join the A55 and terminate at Bangor. The A543 crosses the Denbigh Moors from south-east to north-west, and the A525 links Ruthin with St Asaph.

There are local bus services between the main towns. Several services by Arriva Buses Wales run along the main coast road between Chester and Holyhead, linking the coastal resorts. Another route links Rhyl to Denbigh.

Politics
Denbighshire was last represented in the House of Commons by three MPs. The Welsh Labour Party lost to the Welsh Conservatives in the 2019 general election for the first time.

The following MPs were elected from Denbighshire in 2019: From 2024, Denbighshire is covered by four constituencies. These are Bangor Aberconwy, Clwyd North, Clwyd East and Dwyfor Meirionnydd.
 * Simon Baynes (Welsh Conservatives) in Clwyd South, first elected in 2019.
 * David Jones (Welsh Conservatives) in Clwyd West, first elected in 2005.
 * James Davies (Welsh Conservatives) in Vale of Clwyd, first elected in 2019.

Denbighshire is also represented in the Senedd by three members elected in 2021:
 * Ken Skates (Welsh Labour) in Clwyd South, first elected in 2011
 * Darren Millar (Welsh Conservatives) in Clwyd West, first elected in 2007
 * Gareth Davies (Welsh Conservatives) in Vale of Clwyd, first elected in 2021.

In 2019, research by UnHerd in association with the pollster FocalData showed that most people across the county support the British monarchy.

title: Denbighshire


text:
Lockheed T-33

The Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star (or T-Bird) is an American subsonic jet trainer. It was produced by Lockheed and made its first flight in 1948. The T-33 was developed from the Lockheed P-80/F-80 starting as TP-80C/TF-80C in development, then designated T-33A. It was used by the U.S. Navy initially as TO-2, then TV-2, and after 1962, T-33B. The last operator of the T-33, the Bolivian Air Force, retired the type in July 2017, after 44 years of service.

Design and development
The T-33 was developed from the Lockheed P-80/F-80 by lengthening the fuselage by slightly more than 3 feet (1 m) and adding a second seat, instrumentation, and flight controls. It was initially designated as a variant of the P-80/F-80, the TP-80C/TF-80C.

Design work on the Lockheed P-80 began in 1943, with the first flight on 8 January 1944. Following on the Bell P-59, the P-80 became the first jet fighter to enter full squadron service in the United States Army Air Forces. As more advanced jets entered service, the F-80 took on another role—training jet pilots. The two-place T-33 jet was designed for training pilots already qualified to fly propeller-driven aircraft.

Originally designated the TF-80C, the T-33 made its first flight on 22 March 1948 with Lockheed test pilot Tony LeVier at the controls. Production at Lockheed ran from 1948 to 1959. The US Navy used the T-33 as a land-based trainer starting in 1949. It was designated the TV-2, but was redesignated the T-33B in 1962. The Navy operated some ex-USAF P-80Cs as the TO-1, changed to the TV-1 about a year later. A carrier-capable version of the P-80/T-33 family was subsequently developed by Lockheed, eventually leading to the late 1950s to 1970s T2V-1/T-1A SeaStar. The two TF-80C prototypes were modified as prototypes for an all-weather two-seater fighter variant, which became the F-94 Starfire. A total of 6,557 T-33s were produced: 5,691 of them by Lockheed, 210 by Kawasaki, and 656 by Canadair.

U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy
The two-place T-33 proved suitable as an advanced trainer, and it has been used for such tasks as drone director and target towing. A reconnaissance version known as the RT-33A with a camera installed in the nose and additional equipment in the rear cockpit was also produced. Although primarily intended for export, the U.S. Air Force used a single example of the type for secret overflights of South Vietnam and Laos from 1961, with these flights codenamed FIELD GOAL. This lasted until the aircraft were replaced by the more capable McDonnell RF-101 Voodoo in this role.

The USAF began phasing the T-33 out of front-line pilot training duties in the Air Training Command in the early 1960s, as the Cessna T-37 Tweet and Northrop T-38 Talon aircraft began replacing it for the Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) program. The T-33 was used to train cadets from the Air Force Academy at Peterson Field (now Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs). The T-37 replaced the T-33 for Academy training in 1975. The final T-33 used in advanced training was replaced 8 February 1967 at Craig AFB, Alabama. Similar replacement also occurred in the U.S. Navy with the TV-1 (also renamed T-33 in 1962), as more advanced aircraft such as the North American T-2 Buckeye and Douglas TA-4 Skyhawk II came on line. USAF and USN versions of the T-33 soldiered on into the 1970s and 1980s with USAF and USN as utility aircraft and proficiency trainers, with some of the former USN aircraft being expended as full-scale aerial targets for air-to-air missile tests from naval aircraft and surface-to-air missile tests from naval vessels.

Several T-33s were assigned to USAF McDonnell F-101 Voodoo, Convair F-102 Delta Dagger, and Convair F-106 Delta Dart units, to include similarly equipped Air National Guard units, of the Aerospace Defense Command as proficiency trainers and practice "bogey" aircraft. Others later went to Tactical Air Command, and TAC gained Air National Guard F-106 and McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II units in a similar role until they were finally retired, with the last being an NT-33 variant retired in April 1997.

Military use by other nations
The T-33 has served with over 30 nations and continues to operate as a trainer in smaller air forces. Canadair built 656 T-33s on licence for service in the RCAF—Canadian Forces as the CT-133 Silver Star, while Kawasaki manufactured 210 in Japan. Other operators included Brazil, Turkey, and Thailand, which used the T-33 extensively.

Some T-33s retained two machine guns for gunnery training, and in some countries, the T-33 was even used in combat: the Cuban Air Force used them during the Bay of Pigs Invasion, scoring several kills including sinking two transport ships.

The RT-33A version, reconnaissance aircraft produced primarily for use by foreign countries, had a camera installed in the nose and additional equipment in the rear cockpit. T-33s continued to fly as currency trainers, drone towing, combat and tactical simulation training, "hack" aircraft, electronic countermeasures, and warfare training and test platforms right into the 1980s.

In the 1980s, an attempt was made to modify and modernize the T-33 as the Boeing Skyfox, but a lack of orders led to the project's cancellation. About 70% of the T-33's airframe was retained in the Skyfox, but it was powered by two Garrett AiResearch TFE731-3A turbofan engines.

In the late 1990s, 18 T-33 Mk-III and T-33 SF-SC from the Bolivian Air Force went to Canada to be modernized at Kelowna Flightcraft. New avionics were installed, and detailed inspection and renewal of the fuselage and wings were performed. Most of the aircraft returned in early 2001 and remained operational until the type was officially retired on 31 July 2017.

On 21 June 1996, 1 T-33A-5-LO (trainer TR-602) from the Hellenic Air Force piloted by Squadron Leader Ioannis Kouratzoglou successfully intercepted a Turkish F-16C violating Athens FIR by engaging in low-altitude high-G maneuvers.

Civilian use
A limited number of T-33s have been owned privately, with two used by Boeing as chase aircraft. In 2010, one T-33 owned by Boeing was used as a chase aircraft during the maiden flight of the Boeing 787. The maiden flight of the Boeing 737 MAX-7 on 16 March 2018 also featured a T-33 chase plane. The maiden flight of the Boeing 777-9 on January 25, 2020, also featured a T-33 chase plane, taking off from KBFI and meeting the 777-9 at KPAE, it stopped at KMWH and it took off again to chase the 777-9 on its way back to KBFI, flying around Mount Rainier before their landing. On December 4, 2020, Boeing retired their T-33 Chase Planes after 66 years of service. Both T-33s operated by Boeing were replaced by a single T-38 Talon. Actor and pilot Michael Dorn owned a T-33, which he jokingly referred to as his "starship".

Variants

 * TP-80C
 * Original United States military designation for the Lockheed Model 580 two-seat trainer for the United States Army Air Forces. Designation changed to TF-80C on 11 June 1948 following establishment of the United States Air Force as a separate military service in 1947, and then to T-33A on 5 May 1949; 20 built.

 * T-33A
 * Two-seat jet trainer aircraft for the United States Air Force and delivery to foreign air forces under the Military Assistance Program, 5871 including 699 diverted to the United States Navy as the TV-2.

 * AT-33A
 * Conversions of the T-33A for export as a close support variant fitted with underwing pylons and hard points for bombs and rockets. Also used in the original fighter lead-in program at Cannon AFB, NM approximately 1972-1975.

 * DT-33A
 * This designation was given to a number of T-33As converted into drone directors.

 * NT-33A
 * This designation was given to a number of T-33As converted into special test aircraft.

 * QT-33A
 * This designation was given to number of T-33As converted into aerial target drones for the United States Navy.

 * RT-33A
 * T-33A modified before delivery as a single-seat reconnaissance variant; 85 built, mainly for export under the Military Assistance Program.

 * T-33B
 * Re-designation of the United States Navy TV-2 in 1962.

 * DT-33B
 * Re-designation of the United States Navy TV-2D drone director in 1962.

 * DT-33C
 * Re-designation of the United States Navy TV-2KD target in 1962

 * TO-1/TV-1
 * U.S. Navy designation of P-80C, 50 transferred to USN in 1949 as jet trainers (not technically T-33 Shooting Star)

 * TO-2
 * United States Navy designation for 649 T-33As diverted from USAF production. Two-seat land-based jet training aircraft for the U.S. Navy. First 28 were delivered as TO-2s before the Navy changed the designation to TV-2. Surviving United States Navy and United States Marine Corps aircraft were re-designated T-33B on 18 September 1962.

 * TV-2
 * Re-designation of the TO-2 after the first 28 were built.

 * TV-2D
 * TV-2s modified as drone directors, later re-designated DT-33B.

 * TV-2KD
 * TV-2s modified as radio-controlled targets, could be flown as a single-seater for ferry, later re-designated DT-33C.

Canada

 * Silver Star Mk 1
 * Canadian designation for the T-33A, 20 delivered.

 * Silver Star Mk 2
 * Canadian designation for a T-33A which became the prototype of the Silver Star Mk 3.

 * T-33AN/CT-133 Silver Star Mk 3
 * The T-33AN is a Rolls-Royce Nene-powered variant of the T-33A for the Royal Canadian Air Force; 656 built by Canadair with the company designation CL-30. The Canadian military designation was later changed from T-33AN to CT-133.

Other

 * L-245
 * One Lockheed-owned prototype with a more powerful engine. Was later developed into the T2V SeaStar.

 * Aérospatiale Pégase
 * A Canadair T-33AN was modified by Aérospatiale with an S17a 17% thickness wing section.

Khodkar
 * Boeing Skyfox: A comprehensive upgrade and re-engine project, powered by 2 Garrett TFE-731 turbofans. The sole prototype remains parked, without engines, at Rogue Valley International (MFR) at Medford, Oregon.

Iranian conversion of T-33A into drone.

Former operators

For operators of Canadian-built aircraft, refer to Canadair CT-133 Silver Star.
 * 🇧🇩 Bangladesh
 * Bangladesh Air Force (1 × RT-33 operated from 1972. Leftover of Pakistan Air Force after Bangladesh Liberation War.)
 * 🇧🇪 Belgium
 * Belgian Air Force (38 × T-33A, 1 × RT-33A operated from 1952)
 * 🇧🇴 Bolivia
 * Bolivian Air Force - Bolivia acquired 15 T-33AN from Canada in 1973–74, purchasing 5 more from Canada in 1977 and 18 T-33SFs from France in 1985. 18 were upgraded to T-33-2000 standard in 2000–2001. Retired in 2017.
 * Brazilian Air Force
 * Burma
 * Burmese Air Force – 15 x AT-33A for use as trainers and close air support.
 * 🇨🇦 Canada
 * Royal Canadian Air Force
 * Royal Canadian Navy
 * VU-32 Utility Squadron
 * Canadian Forces
 * National Research Council
 * Chilean Air Force
 * Republic of China Air Force
 * Colombian Air Force
 * Cuban Revolutionary Air and Air Defense Force
 * Royal Danish Air Force
 * Dominican Air Force – AT-33A
 * Ethiopian Air Force
 * Ecuadorian Air Force – AT-33A
 * Salvadoran Air Force
 * French Air Force – 163 x T-33A and RT-33A (also 61 Canadian-built T-33AN)
 * German Air Force 192 x T-33A
 * Hellenic Air Force – T-33A, RT-33A, and Canadian-built AT-33ANs
 * Guatemalan Air Force
 * Honduran Air Force – T-33A and RT-33A
 * Indonesian Air Force – T-33A
 * Imperial Iranian Air Force
 * Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force
 * Italian Air Force operated 60 Lockheed T-33A and 14 Lockheed RT-33A from 1952 until 1982
 * 🇯🇵 (all retired)
 * Japan Air Self Defense Force T-33A – assembled and later manufactured by Kawasaki Heavy Industries Aerospace Company from 1956.
 * Tactical Fighter Training Group (1981–1992)
 * 3rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1956–1992)
 * 6th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1959–1992)
 * 8th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1959–1992)
 * 201st Tactical Fighter Squadron (1963–1974, 1986–1994)
 * 202nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1992)
 * 203rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1992)
 * 204th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1993)
 * 301st Tactical Fighter Squadron (1973–1993)
 * 302nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1974–1994)
 * 303rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1976–1994)
 * 304th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1977–1993)
 * 305th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1978–1993)
 * 306th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1981–1994)
 * Royal Libyan Air Force – two T-33As donated by the United States.
 * Mexican Air Force – 50 units AT-33A
 * 🇯🇵 (all retired)
 * Japan Air Self Defense Force T-33A – assembled and later manufactured by Kawasaki Heavy Industries Aerospace Company from 1956.
 * Tactical Fighter Training Group (1981–1992)
 * 3rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1956–1992)
 * 6th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1959–1992)
 * 8th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1959–1992)
 * 201st Tactical Fighter Squadron (1963–1974, 1986–1994)
 * 202nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1992)
 * 203rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1992)
 * 204th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1964–1993)
 * 301st Tactical Fighter Squadron (1973–1993)
 * 302nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1974–1994)
 * 303rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (1976–1994)
 * 304th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1977–1993)
 * 305th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1978–1993)
 * 306th Tactical Fighter Squadron (1981–1994)
 * Royal Libyan Air Force – two T-33As donated by the United States.
 * Mexican Air Force – 50 units AT-33A
 * Mexican Air Force – 50 units AT-33A
 * Mexican Air Force – 50 units AT-33A
 * Royal Netherlands Air Force – 60 × T-33A, 3 × RT-33A
 * Nicaraguan Air Force FAN received delivery of four AT-33A aircraft from the US Government after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. Retired from service in 1979.
 * Royal Norwegian Air Force
 * Pakistan Air Force – T-33A, RT-33A
 * Paraguayan Air Force operated six AT-33A donated by Taiwan in 1990. The belonged to the Grupo Aerotáctico (GAT) 2nd. Fighter Squadron called "Indios". They were withdrawn from use in 1998.
 * Peruvian Air Force operated a total of 27 T-33A delivered between 1955 and 1964, all of them formerly operated by the United States Air Force. They were withdrawn from use in 1981 after being replaced by the Aermacchi MB-339. A single T-33A-1-LO, serial 455 (c/n 580-9889) is preserved at Parque del Aire.
 * 🇵🇭 Philippines
 * Philippine Air Force
 * Portuguese Air Force T-33A and one RT-33A (all retired)
 * Royal Saudi Air Force
 * Republic of Singapore Air Force: 12 x Former French Air Force T-33A delivered in 1980, followed by 8 more in 1982.
 * Republic of Korea Air Force: T-33A is First introduction Time: August, 1955. It also served with the ROKAF Black Eagles aerobatic team
 * Spanish Air Force – 60 × T-33A
 * Royal Thai Air Force
 * Turkish Air Force – T-33A and RT-33A
 * Boeing Commercial Airplanes (two Canadair CT-133 Silver Stars, N109X and N416X)
 * United States Air Force
 * United States Navy
 * United States Marine Corps
 * Uruguayan Air Force operated 13 AT-33A-1s from 1956 to 1997.
 * Yugoslav Air Force – Operated 125 Shooting Stars in four variants: 25 T-33A, 22 RT-33A, 70 TV-2, and 8 TT-33A
 * Republic of Korea Air Force: T-33A is First introduction Time: August, 1955. It also served with the ROKAF Black Eagles aerobatic team
 * Spanish Air Force – 60 × T-33A
 * Royal Thai Air Force
 * Turkish Air Force – T-33A and RT-33A
 * Boeing Commercial Airplanes (two Canadair CT-133 Silver Stars, N109X and N416X)
 * United States Air Force
 * United States Navy
 * United States Marine Corps
 * Uruguayan Air Force operated 13 AT-33A-1s from 1956 to 1997.
 * Yugoslav Air Force – Operated 125 Shooting Stars in four variants: 25 T-33A, 22 RT-33A, 70 TV-2, and 8 TT-33A
 * United States Navy
 * United States Marine Corps
 * Uruguayan Air Force operated 13 AT-33A-1s from 1956 to 1997.
 * Yugoslav Air Force – Operated 125 Shooting Stars in four variants: 25 T-33A, 22 RT-33A, 70 TV-2, and 8 TT-33A
 * Yugoslav Air Force – Operated 125 Shooting Stars in four variants: 25 T-33A, 22 RT-33A, 70 TV-2, and 8 TT-33A
 * Yugoslav Air Force – Operated 125 Shooting Stars in four variants: 25 T-33A, 22 RT-33A, 70 TV-2, and 8 TT-33A

Aircraft on display
Numerous T-33s have been preserved as museum and commemorative displays.

Notable accidents and incidents
On January 28, 1951: WW2 Ace Dominic Salvatore Gentile was killed when he crashed in a T-33A-1-LO Shooting Star trainer, AF Ser. No. 49-0905, in Forestville, Maryland. Gentile was credited with 20 air kills during his combat tours.

 * 4 August 1955: First Lt. Elmer C. Bybee (of Walden CO) and Second Lt. Conrad J. Zubalik (of Greensburg PA), US Air Force, were flying a T-33 on a training sortie out of Perrin Air Force Base (Sherman TX) when a wing snapped off during a turn. The aircraft crashed near Grapevine Lake Dam north of the Dallas-Ft Worth Airport. Both pilot trainees perished in the crash.

 * 4 June 1957: Maj. Teruhiko Kobayashi, a flying ace of the Imperial Japanese Air Force, was flying a T-33 on a training sortie from Hamamatsu when a technical problem occurred just shortly after takeoff. He ordered his companion in the jet with him to eject. After his companion did, he tried to take control of the aircraft and attempted to land it away from any populated areas, but crashed shortly after.

 * 23 December 1957: 1 US T-33 flown by Maj Howard J.Curran entered Albanian airspace, alleging that he had interference requiring him to fly in Albanian airspace. He was forced to land on Rinas Airport by 2 Albanian MiG-15 flown by Anastas Ngjela and Mahmut Hysa. Major Howard J.Curran was later released but his T-33 was placed in the Gjirokastra castle museum, where it is still today.

 * 24 March 1958: Lt Col. Jacob E. Manch, a member of the Doolittle Raiders during World War 2, was killed in a T-33 jet trainer accident outside of Las Vegas, NV. He ordered the second crewmember to bail out and guided his powerless aircraft over a neighborhood, that included an elementary school, avoiding potential casualties on the ground.  When he finally ejected, his parachute did not have sufficient time to properly operate, and he died when he hit the ground.

 * 20 May 1958: An Air National Guard Lockheed T-33A was involved in a mid-air collision with Capital Airlines Flight 300, a Vickers Viscount, over Brunswick, Maryland.

 * 19 September 1968: A Chilean Air Force T-33A crewed by Sub-lieutenant Jorge Emberg and Second Lieutenant René Catalán crashed shortly after takeoff from El Bosque Air Base due to an engine failure. Emberg managed to eject safely but Catalán and six people on the ground died when the aircraft crashed on the Santa Erna neighborhood.

 * 20 August 1971:   On 20 August 1971, Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas was scheduled to fly a Lockheed T-33 jet trainer from PAF Base Masroor in Karachi.  Bir Sreshtho Matiur Rahman, an instructor pilot, saw Minhas about to take off and joined him via the instructor's seat. Rahman then attempted to hijack the T-33 in midair, intending to fly the plane to India, defect, and join the Bangladesh Liberation War and fight for his motherland. Minhas sent a message to control tower that he has been hijacked before being knocked unconscious. The now alerted Pakistani Air Force scrambled F-86 Sabre jets but were unable to locate the T-33. In the meantime, Rashid regained consciousness and there was a struggle between the two pilots and the plane crashed in Pakistan, 40 kilometers from the Indian border, killing both pilots; the precise cause of the crash is unknown.

title: Lockheed T-33