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Talk:North Macedonia/Archive 4

Simple options
The options are simple:
 * 1) Macedonia - unworkable, because for millions of people worldwide Macedonia means different locations. As an encyclopædia wikipedia will have articles relating to the different concepts of Macedonia in politics, history, culture, etc. So we cannot decide Macedonia = the state that used to be in Yugoslavia, any more than we can decide Macedonia = region in Greece. Macedonia is at best a disambigulation point from which different links to different understandings of the term can branch. Because of its ambiguity it cannot be anything else and I fail to understand why Daniel is so determined to push the use of a word that cannot be used because of its disputed nature as the home of this article.
 * 2) Republic of Macedonia - it is the constitutional name given to the state that used to be in Yugoslavia. It is unrecognised by any other state as the valid name. Why, whether they are right or wrong, is 100% irrelevant. The simple fact is that it is. By using it we would be taking sides on the debate. We very deliberately do not use constitutional names of states as article names. There is no logical reason to break precedent and depart from NPOV rules by taking sides in the dispute.
 * 3) Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia - that is the agreed compromise used worldwide, including by the Macedonian state itself. It does not say that any side is right or wrong. All it says 'this is the temporary name the Macedonian state itself agrees is OK to use pending an agreement on a final name, the name used by the EU, UN, EBU, Unesco, US, Council of Europe, etc.' If the Macedonian state was opposed to its use, then we could not use it, as to use it would be taking sides in the argument. But not merely does it tolerate it, it proposed it, its president uses it, its foreign ministry uses it, its prime minister uses it, its ministers sit on international bodies under that name, etc. So it is 100% NPOV. To date no logical reason has been put to justify using a disputed name with POV connotations over an NPOV that even the Macedonian state uses internationally.

The other options are to use wikipedia variants:
 * 1) Macedonia (country) - again unworkable as many people disagree on which Macedonia is a valid country.
 * 2) Macedonia (republic) - less problematical but still controversial because it still could be be seen as taking sides in the argument over the whether the Macedonian state is entitled to call itself Macedonia, which is no concern of ours.
 * 3) Macedonia (FYROM) - uses Macedonia and FYROM, meaning that both sides of the argument are covered. It doesn't use the disputed Republic of Macedonia nomenclature, and uses as a disambigulation point the most widely recognised and least disputed reference which the Macedonian state is happy with, Greece is happy with and everyone else is happy with. And for those hell bent on avoiding the internationally used and accepted name because of their own agendas, it does do so, simply uses it as the secondary disambigulation point. (We could then use Macedonia (Greece), etc in a show of NPOV terminological neutrality.) FearÉIREANN 22:40, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * (resigned sigh) I don't suppose it matters a great deal. The Macedonians are used to being bullied by everyone, I don't suppose this denial of their elementary right to call themselves what they like will add to to their woes very much. Call the article what you will. Adam 00:17, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I am not used to be bullied by anyone and I am a Macedonian. So I suppose you are wrong about that. There is no "elementary right" to call oneselve what they like. If that was true then we would be in even greater chaos. One should call themselves what they like as long as this doesn't violate someone elses rights. The dispute here is that Greece believes its rights are violated. We are not here to judge if this is true or false, the states can settle that on their own. But wait! They actually did! And FYROM accapted to be called that! 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * (But henceforth I will call Ireland Uzbekistan and Poland Bolivia.) Adam

Don't be childish Adam. In any case saying ''The Macedonians are used to being bullied by everyone. I don't suppose this denial of their elementary right to call themselves what they like will add to to their woes very much'' shows you are trying to push an agenda here. That is NOT what we are supposed to be doing here, and I expected better of you. Whether Macedonians (whomever they are) are the bullies or the ones being bullied is irrelevant. What IS relevant is finding a neutral name that all sides can accept and all sides have accepted a neutral international name, the FYROM. You have spent ages demanding that wikipedia call the Macedonian state something it itself does not demand, that it be known internationally as the Republic of Macedonia. If the Macedonian state does not demand the international usage of that name, why are you and Jiang so determined to demand that an international encyclopædia ignore the name the Macedonian state accepts for usage internationally. It makes no logical sense. In Ireland there is a phrase 'More Irish than the Irish themselves'. You see to be more Macedonian than the Macedonians. FearÉIREANN 01:42, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * No one has proposed to move this article to Macedonia, even though that's what the media and our friend the EB uses . Daniel proposed Macedonia (country), not "Macedonia" by itself. That proposal is supported by no one else so we can leave it alone for the moment.

 * We are avoiding constitutional names for the sake of adhering to our "use common names" policy, not for NPOV sake. [REPEAT: See People's Republic of China (not at China) and Republic of China (not at Taiwan, Renegade Province of the People's Republic of China)]. Whether other governments recognize a state by its real name or by any name at all is 100% irrelevant towards the article's location. This encyclopedia is not a government. We go by the truth - the country is the ROM. We list it at where it really is, and mention why a separate label is deemed necessary. The discussion the controversy in the article itself is sufficient.

 * But as for linking to this article, I support The former Yugslav Republic of Macedonia (ROM shouldn't stand by itself if the controversy is not explained on the same page). --Jiang 00:45, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * That is an absurd article, Jiang. Where a name is common and uncontroversial we use it. Where it is controversial, we go for a recognisable NPOV alternative. We went for the two China option because people committed to either kept moving the articles around to suit their agendas. Using state names in that case, as with Republic of Ireland, allowed both sides to have their names with the understanding that they had then to accept the other.

 * The truth is that the country IS NOT the ROM yet (notice the "yet" part). Uninlaterally naming myself to Jiang does not make me Jiang and creates confusiong and controversy. If confusion and controversy is what you propose and prefer, then it can be aranged. But what makes your point moot, is really the fact that FYROM has agreed to that name and has not made demands to be called ROM. I believe that somehow you link this issue to your own personal bias towards Republic of China. Don't. They are very sepparate cases and very different. 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Naming yourself Jiang does make you Jiang even if others don't recognize that name. There are many individuals with the exact same name. Yes, it is confusing, but the bureau that issues birth certificates does not prevent this from happening. Is there a precedent for this situation? Provide some backing for your premise that people don't have the right to name themselves whatever they wish.

You said it yourself - it is domestically the ROM. If it is valid domestically, then how can it not be valid at all? Isn't this a contradiction? The country IS the ROM domestically and constitutionally. Repeat: The UN, EU, etc. has left the issue of what the country calls itself alone. FYROM is just a "temporary" reference used for international/diplomatic purposes only. No party ordered (or has the authority to do so) the ROM to change its name. --Jiang 22:23, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * First of all. I can change my name, but I need to apply to a higher authority to do so. I cannot unilaterally declare myself being you and sign with your name. Do you really need me to bring exmples of forgery? Have you really never heard of it? I doubt it. Now, regarding that nobody ordered FYROM to change its name. I believe it is irrelevant. Since the UN accepted it with that name, for the purposes of identification, there name the country calls itself is irrelevant. In Greece we call the country "Ellada", that doesn't mean the UN calls us "Ellada". 193.195.0.102 11:49, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As for We go by the truth - the country is the ROM that is POV rubbish. (a) Not everyone agrees it is a country, and (b) not everyone agrees that is its name. Which means to say it is or to say it isn't is by definition a breach of NPOV. All encyclopædias reflect the constitutional, political, cultural, historic and regional realities in how they define things. Cornwall nationalists insist the incorporation of Cornwall into England was illegal and thus Cornwall is independent. If there was widespread dispute about that all encyclopædias would reflect that. There isn't, just a small fringe so encyclopædias worldwide say Cornwall is currently part of the UK. Not should be, could be, is disputed, etc. IS. The nomenclature of the Macedonian is widely disputed. You may believe that it is entitled to be called the Republic of Macedonia. I may agree with you. But when there is a dispute, wikipedia, as an open-edit encyclopædia has to be cognisant of the dispute and be careful to use careful, neutral language that all sides can agree to tolerate. And all sides agree with the FYROM designation. They don't agree on the ROM designation. So ROM is a non-starter under wikipedia rules. Just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it true if millions disagree. And in this case, millions agree and millions disagree. And Wikipedia can no more reflect the Greek view that the Macedonian state official view. That is how encyclopædias work. FYROM fits all the criteria of name recognition, consensus acceptance and accuracy. ROM lacks consensus acceptance and as it is not used outside Macedonia also lacks the same level of name recognition. And accuracy, as in so many cases, is in the eye of the beholder and so POV. FearÉIREANN

 * The article proclaims that the ROM is an "independent state." We don't need to acknowledge fringe notions. How is the country not the ROM? FYROM is a "temporary reference" used for diplomatic purposes. The international organizations the FYROM participates in and the countries the FYROM has diplomatic relations with do not deny that ROM is official and constitutional name of the country. 193.195.0.102 is simply uninformed in believing a UNGA resolution has the authority to amend the ROM's consitution to change the official name to FYROM. --Jiang 22:23, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

FearÉIREANN, you seem to confuse this article with British and Irish history and analogies. Macedonia is not some republic self-declared by 18 rebels. It's a real country.

 * Yes it is a country in Greece. 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * There are countries inside of Greece? Perhaps you are confused about what "country" means in English?  Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

1. Macedonia is a country. You can't dispute that. The only thing disputed here is the name of the article and the name that should be used in the article.-- Daniel Quinlan

 * I can dispute that according to Jiang. By the fact that 3-4 users don't accept it, it makes it "disputed". In any case, as I said, Macedonia IS a country within Greece. Which one do you refer to? 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Again, you are really confused. There are no separate countries contained inside of Greece.  Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

2. All sides do not agree FYROM is the common name. That was a diplomatic compromise, yet the BBC (web site articles), CNN, and other news agencies usually call it Macedonia and not FYROM. You disputed this and when I showed ample evidence, well, I guess it did not sway your personal view.-- Daniel Quinlan

 * Huh? When you say "sides" do you mean you and Jiang and a bunch of other people who hold no authority at all? Cause last time I checked, both Greece and FYROM agreed to that name and it was also blessed by the UN. This site is not about personal views as you seem to believe, but about facts. The fact is that the name FYROM has been agreed by all sides. It doesn't make everyone happy, but it HAS been agreed and that's what compromises are. You chose to totally eradicate that compromise based on your personal view. I, on the other hand, even though I am against the name Macedonia being used by FYROM, have no issue with respecting the aggreement and use it as it was meant. 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * By sides, I mean people with different views. Even though Macedonia made an agreement with Greece, it does not seem to stop them from using the name in their constitution or in relations with other countries like the UK and the US.  It's only in a few contexts involving Greece that FYROM is canonically used.  Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

3. ROM is not a non-starter. FYROM should be the non-starter as it is a name imposed by an agreement between two countries (extending to several international organizations). FYROM is not supported by common usage nor is it supported by the country internally, just when necessary due to agreements.-- Daniel Quinlan

 * Common usage means what exactly? Just because people are ignorant about the name of this country, it does not mean that it is not called FYROM. Maybe it would be better if this encyclopedia tried to educate people instead of maintain igonrance amongst them? 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't agree that it is incorrect any more than I agree that "United States" is an incorrect name for "United States of America". Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

4. When those agreements are not a factor, Macedonia is used the vast majority of the time with just as much FYROM usage as ROM usage. That includes both Macedonian and non-Macedonian sites (and news organizations, as I have shown ample evidence). Some other relevant examples: -- Daniel Quinlan
 * 1) * http://www.embassy.org/embassies/mk.html
 * 2) * http://www.macedonianembassy.org/
 * 3) * http://skopje.usembassy.gov/
 * 4) * http://www.usembassy.org.uk/nato165.html

 * Irrelevant. FYROM has its own propaganda engine and so does Greece. I can point you to numerous sites that don't even call it FYROM. I respect your intelligence though and I leave propaganda out sites of this. Please do the same, 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * My point was that FYROM name is only used in some contexts. I think I proved that quite well.  Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

5. Finally, Wikipedia is not a party to these agreements, so we can make up our own mind about what is the most common and appropriate name. Daniel Quinlan 09:32, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * Or we could actually use a name that does not offend any sidd and has been accepted officially as the name to that state, by the state itself. But that would be like we saw reason somehow ... 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I'm not offended by any of these titles. I think that FYROM is the incorrect choice for the page title though given common usage and other factors.  FYROM needs to be mentioned and explained, though.  Daniel Quinlan 11:11, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Image Layout
Hello Jiang, br clear=right doesn't seem to work properly: I think this doesn't look that good. -- JeLuF 00:57, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Does it look like that now (that I've moved things around)? Yr. edit destroyed to locator map and flag. --Jiang 01:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what the page looks like currently. What do you mean by destroyed to locator map and flag? -- JeLuF 01:22, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * This is what it looked like: --Jiang

Image looks fine on Camino. It may be a browser problem. Some versions of IE completely muck of page layouts on wikipedia and it is a problem with the browser, not the page. FearÉIREANN 01:45, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * It's not a browser issue per se, it's a width of your screen issue. The code of the page is broken, not the browser. If a new float starts before the last one is finished, the browser has to but it left of the first float. -- JeLuF 01:54, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The code isn't really broken either. It's a font size issue. It should look OK for most people, but if you have a sufficiently small font, then the new float starts too early, and then this happens. To avoid this, the map could be left-aligned, but then you can get other problems if your screen is too narrow. --Wik 02:05, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

The same problem occured on among other pages Robert Mugabe. People on IE got images clashing with text, images colliding with each other, etc. No-one else did. When IE users fixed the images according to the way their browsers showed them, they promptly made a mess of everyone else's page. An edit war was the result until it was copped on after a couple of hours that it was the browsers (in that case a specific version of IE) that was the problem. This was only shown when copies of how the page looked on different browsers were shown and compared and it was found to be a broswer problem. IE (certain types) also misreads some caption commands and other tags, leading to the abandonment of some commands entirely as they were producing different pages on IE and other browsers. FearÉIREANN 02:01, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Naming policy
If our naming policy for countries is that we must use a "neutral name that everyone can agree on," as FearUZBEKISTAN says, how do we manage to have an article on Israel? I can introduce you to several hundred million people who object violently to that name. Why don't we call the article Former League of Nations Mandated Territory of Palestine? Answer: because we acknowledge that Israel does actually exist (whether we think it ought to or not), and so we call the country by its name. Adam 03:11, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * No, because Israel is recognized under that name by the UN and most of the world. --Wik 03:21, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * The state in dispute is recognised as FYROM by the UN. 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Does the UN choose Wikipedia page titles? No.  Daniel Quinlan 11:13, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Jiang is a "troll"
Right, user Jiang continues to refuse to answer the question of why it is necessary to use POV and call the article "Republic of Macedonia", instead of "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" when the second name has been agreed by both sides. He actually claimed that because HE disputes the name, it is disputed thus unnacceptable. Apparently he believes he holds some authority which is superior to that of the states of FYROM and Greece, not to mention the UN. If this continues, and is accepted by all, it means we all have the right to start disputing any name we see in this Encyclopedia and unilaterally start changing it to our liked version. Maybe a good place to start would be the Republic of China article which seems to be POV anyway. I believe user Jiang should be excluded from this discussion since he persists in giving the same answer without providing any backing to it. I believe have been reasonable up to now, but since users like Jiang (trolls) do not seem to appreciate this and on top of that, get their way by unilateraly forcing their ideas on us, I am considering of changing my ways. Thanks, 193.195.0.102 10:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Even if Jiang is 100% wrong, it does not mean we should change the page title. Other people, myself included, think FYROM would not be the right title for this article.  I'm not saying that numbers necessarily make us right, but focusing attacks on Jiang and calling him a troll, do not help move the debate forward.  Daniel Quinlan 11:13, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

 * My argument was against the fact that the FYROM is entirely undisputed. I'm not the only one thinking that it's not NPOV. --Jiang

 * Oh please... FYROM being POV? Why? Because both sides agreed to it? Because the UN proposed it? Because nationalists in both countries hate it? Who else thinks it is not NPOV besides you and why? And btw "I think it is not NPOV" without giving any reason is as good as "Nuhuh"... 193.195.0.101 12:31, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.

FYROM(Slav people & Albans) is not: "Macedonia" ,"Macedonians" Macedonian language !!! Vergina 12:39, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Three quick points:

 * 1) Unaccustomed as I am to finding myself on the same team as Jiang, he has made a genuine contribution to this debate, and does not deserve to be called a troll by an anonymous user whose behaviour has been as trollish as anyone else's in this long, tedious and pointless exercise in competitive pedantry.
 * 2) How can it be POV to call something by its real name?
 * 3) Can we nominate Vergina to be banned?

Adam 13:19, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * 1) I am no more anonymous than Jiang so if you feel the need to make a special attack on me based on this alone, I suggest you drop it cause it kinda make you look bad. 193.195.0.102 18:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * 2) Care to prove to me that it is its real name? Oh wait! This does not belong here. Nobody calls it by its defacto real name. Some people call it how it named itself. I can name myself your hasband. Can I demand you call me that? Even more so, will I actually BE that? 193.195.0.102 18:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * 3) Why? Because her English is bad, or because she persists in supporting the Greek side in the same way you support the Skopjan side? 193.195.0.102 18:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

2. You will BE that, but you cannot demand that he call you by that, But what he calls you is irrelevant. --Jiang

Vergina's posts are bordering on the level of nonesense. I would support and offer additional arguments for such a ban if User talk:Vergina/ban is started. --Jiang 01:09, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Article name vs. country name vs. region name
I think a lot of us are missing the point: the title of the article does NOT have to be the same as the name of the country. For example, there is a China article as well as a Republic of China article.

 * A better example is Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which no-one except Turkey recognises at all, which sends Greece and Greek-Cyprus into paroxysms of rage, and yet which we are perfectly happy to have an article about under its real name, with no objections from anyone. I find this curious. Adam 14:52, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * This is totally irrelevant IMO. The "Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus" (an illegal regime), has not agreed to be called with a name other than that internationally. FYROM has agreed to that name. 193.195.0.102 18:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * We also have articles for Somaliland and Puntland. Daniel Quinlan 16:39, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

''Indicate your preferences with the 3-tilde thing. Note that these issues won't necessarily be decided by voting.

Where the article should be
Note that you can sign more than one option!

 * The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia - Uncle Ed, 193.195.0.101,Vergina FearÉIREANN
 * Republic of Macedonia - Uncle Ed ,Rmhermen, Zundark, Jiang, dml, Dori, Daniel Quinlan (my second choice)
 * Macedonia (country) - Daniel Quinlan
 * Republic of Macedonia (with disclaimer in the first sentence) -Delirium, Jiang (it's not necessary to include this option in the poll!) (so no title for the article, Jiang?)(what?? why list ROM twice in this poll? we can settle this after we decide on it)
 * FYR Macedonia-Vergina

Total of approval votes for each article title:

 * The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia = 4
 * Republic of Macedonia = 7 (plus Adam would be 8)
 * Macedonia (country) = 1
 * Republic of Macedonia with first sentence disclaimer = 8 or 9
 * FYR Macedonia= 1

By a factor of about 2-to-1, Republic of Macedonia is the most accepted option for the title. The disclaimer is already present and adds an additional approval vote. Is it really going to be productive to continue discussing this? Opinions seem quite deadlocked. Daniel Quinlan 03:58, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)

What the name of the country is

 * The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia - 193.195.0.101,Vergina, Daniel Quinlan (in certain contexts involving Greece)
 * Republic of Macedonia - Rmhermen (see their constitution), Zundark, Jiang, Dori, Daniel Quinlan (most correct)
 * Macedonia (for short) - Daniel Quinlan
 * It isn't Wikipedia's role to name the country, merely say who says name 'x', who name 'y', where and why - FearÉIREANN, Martin, Jiang, 193.195.0.102, Uncle Ed,Vergina

Region name question
The land known from ancient times as "Macedonia" has been split into two parts, right?

 * True: Greece has the southern portion, and FYROM (or ROM) has the northern portion -
 * Not quite just two countries from what I've read: Daniel Quinlan, 193.195.0.102 (90% is still in Greece, the rest - vitola/monastiri - is in FYROM),
 * False: The vast majority of it is currently in Greece. A small portion is in FYROM. The rest of FYROM was ruled by Macedonia, but was not part of the original kingdom of Macedon. --Delirium 20:28, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
 * Confused Delirium:The rest of FYROM was ruled by Osman Kosovo!! NOT by Macedonia. Vergina 23:29, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Country name question
The country calls itself ROM and tolerates being called FYROM.

 * True: Uncle Ed, Daniel Quinlan, 193.195.0.102
 * False:

Article name question

 * Should be the same as what the country calls itself. -Dori 14:59, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC), Daniel Quinlan
 * Should be the same as it's generally known in the English-speaking world - Uncle Ed, Daniel Quinlan
 * Should be the same as what the country calls itself, unless there is a major international dispute over the country name - Uncle Ed, Daniel Quinlan, 193.195.0.102
 * Should be whatever we think our readers will look for it under - Uncle Ed, Daniel Quinlan
 * Should be whatever the UN "officially" calls it - Daniel Quinlan, 193.195.0.102
 * Should be whatever the US calls it - Daniel Quinlan
 * Should be the same as it's generally known in the English-speaking world, unless this common usage is POV or factually wrong. --Jiang

I think this classification system is overly simplistic and not reaching the point of being helpful. It's only how you evaluate and weigh the various factors that determines which choice is used. Daniel Quinlan 16:31, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Debate
A debate that would make TAFKAP proud Dori 14:59, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Just in case anybody missed it. Please do not link this issue with the ones of Northern Cyprus and Taiwan. None of these regimes have been recognised by the UN and AFAIK they did not agree to be called under any name internationally. FYROM has agreed to that name and noone has officially agreed to call them ROM yet. Lets don't try to change history here. People implied I am biased for supporting the FYROM solution, yet they seem to ignore that that name (FYROM) was also a compromise for Greece, not only FYROM. What I would really want to see, is this country be called with the name it had before Tito renamed it to "Macedonia". That is "Vardarska Banovina". After all, their capital was part of the Kossovo Villayet even at ottoman times. But since this is the Greek view, I am not pushing it forward. I am being reasonable though, and only support the agreement Greece had with FYROM and the UN. 193.195.0.102 18:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The country called international FYROM and local(intern) ROM

This is true and UNO juridical !! Vergina 19:53, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The wikipedia is not UNO !! Vergina 20:25, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The Republic of China is a member of APEC, IOC, FIFA, and elsewhere under the name "Chinese Taipei". It is in the WTO as the "Separate Customs territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu". How is this situation different?

 * Has it agreed to be called "Chinese Taipei" internationally? Actually "Repubic of China" is confusing since Taiwan is not China anyway. In any case, this is irrelevant. It would be relevant if Taiwan came under an agreement with China to be called something other than ROC internationally, and wikipedia still went on to call it ROC. 193.195.0.101 12:31, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Hm... "The constitutional name of that state means nothing internationally unless this state is recognised by the UN." --Jiang 22:42, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I know that America under Bush finds this hard to comprehend right now, but the UN is the world! :-) FearÉIREANN 01:25, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Very good point. 193.195.0.101 12:31, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm not an American, and I certainly don't accept that the UN has the right to decide what countries should call themselves, and certainly not what they should be called in encyclopaedias. All of this again loses sight of the central point, which is that the only reason anyone uses FYROM is to appease Greek nationalist sentiment, which is not an obligation we are under. Adam 01:35, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Adam, if you choose not to listen to argument and continue to want to POV an article to suit your political agenda, fine. But it is as wrong and as illogical now as the last 500 times you have said it. And FYROM is the name the Macedonian state itself uses internationally. Are you deciding that not alone do you not care what the international community says, all international bodies say, what the Greeks say, you don't even care what the Macedonians say? That is nonsensical. FearÉIREANN 01:41, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I wish you wouldn't keep accusing me of stupidity or obtuseness, when you know quite well that I am neither stupid nor obtuse. You also know quite well that Macedonia agreed to be called FYROM only under duress, and that they would stop doing so immediately if that duress was removed. Just because Macedonia is under duress from a much larger and more powerful neighbour, and just because the EU and the UN agreed to use FYROM as a means of defusing the Greece-Macedonia confrontation in 1995, is no reason why we should agree to do so. We are not under duress from Greece, and we are not involved in international diplomacy. To talk about the 1995 agreement as though it was freely negotiated between equals is nonsense. Macedonia was coerced by Greece, which controls its access to the sea and its access to EU aid. That was the only reason Macedonia agreed to be called FYROM (but not actually to change its name). And the "international community" only agreed to this to appease Greece and prevent a deadlock in the EU, where Greece like all members has a veto. Privately everyone else thought that Greece was behaving like a bully and that the whole issue was being driven by Greek domestic politics (which it was). In these circumstances the use of FYROM is much more POV than the use of ROM, which can always be defended on the impeccable grounds that it is the country's legal name. Adam 03:19, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Adam. The Greek nationalists OPPOSE the name FYROM. If this was a way to appease them then it obviously failed cause they HATE IT. Get your facts sorted out and stop talking out of your behind, pretty please. FYROM is in fact the NPOV name. Who are you to be the judge of whether Greece was wrong or right to challenge the name "Macedonia"? Please leave your personal opinions and fiction out of this. Here is a FACT: Both sides have agreed to use FYROM internationally. This is an international encyclopedia. Maybe you can make it so .mk sites see the ROM version if you feel these people are hurt or whatever you try to prove here. 193.195.0.101 12:31, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Alexander the Great is Macedonian. is the Alexander the Great as "Macedonian" FYROMIAN?? (See ROM propaganda)!!

See Macedonian or Macedonian language ! The forgery!!!! Vergina 07:40, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:North Macedonia/Archive 4


text:
Penistone

Penistone is a market town and civil parish in the Metropolitan Borough of Barnsley, South Yorkshire, England, which had a population of 24,760 at the 2021 census. Historically in the West Riding of Yorkshire, it is 8 mi west of Barnsley, 17 mi north-east of Glossop, 14.2 mi north-west of Sheffield, 27 mi south-west of Leeds and 29 mi east of Manchester in the foothills of the Pennines. The town is frequently noted on lists of unusual place names.

The highest point, Hartcliffe Tower, is 1194 ft above sea level and has views over the Woodhead bypass and the Dark Peak. The surrounding countryside is predominantly rural with farming on rich well-watered soil on mainly gentle slopes rising to the bleak moorland to the west of the town. Dry stone walls, small hamlets and farms surrounded by fields and livestock are synonymous with the area. The area is known for its rugged breed of sheep, the Whitefaced Woodland.

The market town itself stands at its highest point around St Johns Church at around 250 m above sea level. However, the surrounding land rises well over 1000 ft towards Cubley and Thurlstone Moors and out towards smaller hamlets at Carlecotes, Victoria, Dunford and Crow Edge, elevated at points above 1200 ft. There are several vantage points around Penistone that afford panoramic views of the surrounding areas of West Yorkshire and North Derbyshire.

Etymology
The place-name Penistone is first attested in the Domesday Book of 1086, where it appears as Pengeston(e) and Pangeston; later sources record it as Peningston. It may mean "the farmstead at the hill called Penning", in reference to the high ridge immediately south of the town. This combines the Brittonic word penn (meaning a head, end, or height) with the Old English suffix ing and the word tun (meaning a farmstead or village).

Penistone has frequently been noted on lists of unusual place-names because it contains the letter sequence "penis"; however, those initial five letters are not pronounced like the name of the body part.

Mediaeval history
In 1066, the township was owned by Ailric. It was razed in 1069 in the Harrying of the North following the Norman Conquest; the Domesday Book described the settlement in 1086 as "waste".

Sir Gyles Penyston (fl. 13th century), whose family seat was in Cornwall (perhaps at Truro) before his time, and who is an ancestor of the Penyston Baronets, was styled of Penyston, denoting that he resided in Penistone.

Wool
The town was renowned for its Penistone cloth (or "forest white"), a rough, home-spun cloth. In a law passed in 1601 (43 Eliz. 1 cap. 10) regulating the working of cloth, penalties were set out for weavers found to be making Penistone cloth of inferior quality. Until the eighteenth century, home weavers in the area brought their products to town for sale in an annual cloth fair but in 1768 a Cloth Hall (or "piece hall") was built by subscription to facilitate regular sales to wool merchants.

Sheep sales have been held in the town since before 1699, when the market received a royal charter and the area produced the now rare Penistone sheep.

Buildings
The town remained small until the coming of the railway in 1845, although several pre-19th century buildings survive. The oldest still standing is Penistone Church. This is the Grade I listed mediaeval parish church, St John the Baptist Church. The White Hart pub in the town dates from 1377. Penistone had a market for a long time before its royal charter was granted in 1699, although its historic livestock market was closed recently to make way for town centre re-development. A new landmark building has been built in Penistone for the Market Place. This is an oaken Cruck Barn and was built by Carpenter Oak of Totnes, Devon.

Railway

The Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway opened on 15 July 1845, on a route via Penistone, Dunford Bridge and the three-mile long Woodhead Tunnel. Construction conditions were difficult and 32 men died during the tunnel's construction, including 28 from cholera.

The Penistone to Huddersfield railway line opened on 1 July 1850. Penistone became a railway junction, with a depot for engineering trains. Penistone station had frequent train services to Manchester, Sheffield and Huddersfield.

Penistone's 29-arch viaduct was built in 1849 by Messrs. Ingham and Bower. Stone was obtained from Walk Mill Bank, Oxspring, and was conveyed by a tramway on the side of the River Don. The second and third arches of Penistone Viaduct collapsed on 2 February 1916, when heavy rain weakened the foundations; the driver and fireman of a stationary goods locomotive were able to jump clear and survive the collapse. Cracks in the parapet had been observed some days earlier. The viaduct was repaired and was back in service in August of the same year.

The town was served by the Woodhead Line between Manchester London Road and Sheffield Victoria. Following major investment, which started in 1935 but was delayed by the Second World War, the electrification of the railway was completed in 1954 and the line's power control centre was built adjacent to Penistone station. The building still stands and has been converted for commercial use. The Woodhead Line was the first main line railway in the UK to be electrified, but its once-pioneering 1500 V DC system became non-standard.

Although the Beeching Report recommended the closure of the Hope Valley line and the retention of Woodhead services, the government chose to implement the opposite; Woodhead Line passenger services beyond Hadfield ended on 5 January 1970. Goods trains, mainly coal, continued to travel through the station for a further 11 years when the line was closed controversially between Penistone and Hadfield in July 1981; the track was lifted several years later. The route of the track is now used as part of the Trans-Pennine Trail.

Transport

Penistone railway station is on the Penistone Line, which provides passenger trains to Huddersfield, Barnsley and Sheffield. Services are generally hourly in each direction, operated by Northern Trains.

Bus services in the area are operated by Stagecoach Yorkshire, South Pennine Community Transport, Globe Holidays (Barnsley) and TM Travel. Routes connect Penistone with Barnsley, Holmfirth, Sheffield, Stocksbridge and Thurgoland.

Governance
Penistone was a parish in the wapentake of Staincross in the West Riding of Yorkshire and after 1837 was a member of the Wortley Poor law union.

Penistone was in the Barnsley West and Penistone constituency until the 2010 general election when it became part of the newly created Penistone and Stocksbridge constituency.

Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council is responsible for local government issues and Penistone Town Council, based at Penistone Town Hall, is responsible for local issues.

Geography
Penistone is situated on the south bank of the River Don. The parish, which included Gunthwaite, Hunshelf, Ingbirchworth, Langsett, Oxspring, and Thurlstone, covered 21,338 acres, mostly arable land and pasture and 2,000 acres of moorland. The underlying geology is the coal measures of the South Yorkshire Coalfield, from which some coal was mined in the 19th century, and sandstone flags were quarried.

Economy
Penistone has a thriving market, although smaller since the building of a Tesco supermarket in 2011, which reduced the market footprint. The cattle market, which was the centre of the farming livestock trade, and the Fur n Feathers market, have long since gone. At 747 ft elevation, Penistone is among the highest market towns in Yorkshire.

The Market Cruck Barn was officially opened on 21 July 2011. Penistone Farmers' Market is a monthly farmers' market on the second Saturday of every month held in the market place.

Religion

 * Saint John the Baptist Church – Church of England
 * St Andrews Church – United Reformed Church
 * Penistone Community Church

Media

Local news and television programmes are provided by BBC Yorkshire and ITV Yorkshire. Television signals are received from the Emley Moor TV transmitter.

Local radio stations are BBC Radio Sheffield on 104.1 FM, Capital Yorkshire on 105.6 FM, Heart Yorkshire on 106.2 FM, Hallam FM on 102.9 FM and Penistone FM, formed in 2005, is a not-for-profit community radio which broadcasts on 95.7 FM. Ofcom granted it a licence to broadcast in December 2007. Test transmissions began in May 2009 and the station was officially launched in June 2009, with its licence running for five years. The licence was renewed for a further five years, to finish in June 2019.

Penistone is also served by commercial radio station Dearne FM, which broadcasts to Barnsley, Penistone and the Dearne Valley areas in South Yorkshire on the dedicated frequency of 97.1 FM. Test transmissions started in September 2003 on both 97.1 and the Barnsley and Dearne Valley frequency (102.0) before the station's official launch on 5 October 2003.

The town is served by the local newspaper, Barnsley Chronicle.

Sport and recreation

 * The local football team is Penistone Church F.C., who play home matches at the Memorial Ground in Church View Road.
 * Penistone Cricket and Sports Club has a ground in Sheffield Road.
 * Penistone Paramount Cinema
 * Penistone Gymnastics Club
 * Penistone Footpath Runners and Athletics Club
 * Penistone Bowling Club, Back Lane.
 * Quest Taekwondo Penistone
 * Barnsley FC local professional football club

Grammar school
Penistone Grammar School was founded in 1392. Notable former pupils include the blind mathematician Nicholas Saunderson, and Anne Campbell, who served as MP for Cambridge until May 2005. Most of the old school was demolished in 2011 and a new school built. Other local schools include St John's Primary School, Spring Vale Primary School and Thurlstone Primary School.

Events
Pancake Day. In the early 20th century it was the custom in the town for the church to ring a pancake bell on Shrove Tuesday.

March. Penistone Arts Weeks returned in 2022.

The annual Penistone Mayor's Parade Weekend is in June. It consists of two concerts, a parade and a gala.

The first Penistone Folk Festival took place in June 2011 in the Market Barn. This is planned to be an annual charity event and occurs at around the same date as the earlier 'Penistone Sing', on the festival of St John, to whom the parish church is dedicated.

Penistone Literary Festival ('Pen-Lit') was started in 2014.

August. On Yorkshire Day, 1 August 2006, the now annual gathering of lord mayors, mayors and other civic heads from Yorkshire was held at Penistone. The day included a service at the parish church, a parade around the town, films and an evening of music at the Paramount Cinema and an exhibition at St John's Community Centre, and Hartcliff Tower was opened to the public. There were Morris dancers, a farmers' market, a shop-window competition and a historic organ concert at St Andrews Church.

September. Penistone Show is an annual agricultural show. It is held on the second Saturday in September. As well as ordinary agricultural categories for sheep, cows, goats and poultry entries are received in horticulture, handicraft, show jumping, pigeons, dogs, photography and other categories.

Penistone's Annual Competitive Music Festival is held at Penistone Grammar School on the last Saturday of September. The event was founded by Millhouse Green Male Voice Choir and was in its 48th year in 2016.

Notable people

 * Kate Rusby, folk singer born in Cawthorne.
 * Rolo Tomassi, Experimental Rock Band.
 * Rachael McShane, cellist from Bellowhead, folk band
 * John Stones, international footballer for Manchester City (previously Barnsley FC first team). Former Barnsley academy graduate.
 * Chris Morgan, footballer, defender. Former Barnsley and Sheffield United captain.
 * Marc Roberts, footballer, defender. Current Birmingham City player.
 * Scott High, footballer, midfielder. Current Huddersfield Town player.

Fairtrade Town
On 26 February 2007 the town was officially declared a Fairtrade Town.

Twin towns

 * 🇮🇸 Grindavík, Iceland

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Penistone


text:
Fijian language

Fijian (Na vosa vaka-Viti) is an Austronesian language of the Malayo-Polynesian family spoken by some 350,000–450,000 ethnic Fijians as a native language. The 2013 Constitution established Fijian as an official language of Fiji, along with English and Fiji Hindi and there is discussion about establishing it as the "national language". Fijian is a VOS language.

Standard Fijian is based on the Bau dialect, which is an East Fijian language. A pidginized form is used by many Indo-Fijians and Chinese on the islands, while Pidgin Hindustani is used by many rural ethnic Fijians and Chinese in areas dominated by Indo-Fijians.

History of the language
The Fijian language was introduced to Fiji c. 3500 years ago by the islands' first settlers. For millennia, it was the only spoken language in Fiji. In 1835, Methodist missionaries from Australia worked in Fiji to develop a written form of the language. By 1840, they had already developed a writing system, and had published various books on the different dialects of the language. After the independence of Fiji in 1970, Fijian has been used in radio, television, books, and periodicals, and has been taught in schools.

National language debate
In May and June of 2005, several prominent Fijians sought to promote the status of the Fijian language. Fiji had no official language before the 1997 Constitution, which made the Fijian language co-official with English and Fiji Hindi; however, it was not required to be taught in schools. The minister of education, Ro Teimumu Kepa, has also supported appeals to Chairman of the Great Council of Chiefs Ratu Ovini Bokini. Similar appeals have been made by Misiwini Qereqeretabua, Director of the Institute of Language and Culture, and by Apolonia Tamata, a linguistics professor at the University of the South Pacific in Suva. They have stated that recognition of the Fijian language is essential for the basic identity of the nation and acts as a unifying factor for the multicultural society of Fiji.

Mahendra Chaudhry, the leader of the Fiji Labour Party, also supported the cause to make Fijian a national language and a compulsory subject in schools with the same status as Fiji Hindi, a position echoed by Krishna Vilas of the National Reconciliation Committee.

Since 2013, when a new constitution was adopted, Fijian is established as an official language of Fiji alongside Fiji Hindi and English.

Phonology
The consonant phonemes of Fijian are as shown in the following table:

The consonant written $\langledr\rangle$ has been described as a prenasalized trill or trilled affricate. However, it is only rarely pronounced with a trilled release; the primary feature distinguishing it from $\langled\rangle$ is that it is postalveolar,, rather than dental/alveolar.

The sounds and  occur only in loanwords from other languages. The sounds and  only occur for speakers from certain regions of the country.

The sounds and  occur as allophones of  and.

The glottal stop occurs in the Boumaa Fijian used to illustrate this article, but is not found in the standard language. It descends from an earlier sound in most Fijian dialects.

Note the difference in place of articulation between the voiced-voiceless fricative pairs: bilabial vs. labiodental, and dental  vs. alveolar.

The vowel phonemes are:

In addition, there is the rising diphthong.

Syllables can consist of a consonant followed by a vowel (CV) or a single vowel (V). Word stress is based on moras: a short vowel is one mora, diphthongs and long vowels are two morae. Primary stress is on the penultimate mora of the phonological word. That is, if the last syllable of a word is short, then the penultimate syllable will be stressed, while if the last syllable contains either a long vowel or a diphthong, then it receives primary stress. Stress is not lexical and can shift when suffixes are attached to the root. Examples:
 * Stress on the penultimate syllable (final short vowel): síga, day;
 * Stress on the final syllable (diphthong): cauravóu, youth (the stress extends over the whole diphthong).
 * Stress shift: cábe, kick → cabé-ta, kick-TR

Orthography
The Fijian alphabet is based on the Latin script and consists of the following letters. There is almost a one-to-one correspondence between letters and phonemes.

In the 1980s, scholars compiling a dictionary added several more consonants and a few consonant clusters to the alphabet. These newcomers were necessary to handle words entering Standard Fijian from not only English, but from other Fijian languages or dialects as well. These are the most important additions: $\langlenḍ\rangle$, as in $⟨z⟩$ ginger and $⟨ziza⟩$ , as in $⟨h⟩$ hire.

For phonological reasons $⟨haya⟩$ and $⟨ti⟩$ are pronounced, rather than ,  (cf. Japanese chi kana, or in standard Brazilian Portuguese). Hence, the Fijian name for Fiji, $⟨di⟩$, from an allophonic pronunciation of as.

In addition, the digraph $⟨Viti⟩$ stands for retroflex, or a prenasalized trill in careful pronunciation, or more commonly for some people and in some dialects.

The vowel letters $⟨dr⟩$ have roughly their IPA values,. The vowel length contrast is not usually indicated in writing, except in dictionaries and textbooks for learners of the language, where it is indicated by a macron over the vowel in question; Dixon, in the work cited below, doubles all long vowels in his spelling system. Diphthongs are $⟨a e i o u⟩$, pronounced.

Morpho-syntax

 * Note: the examples in this section are from Boumaa dialect. It is not Standard Fijian, which is based on the Bauan dialect.

Negation
In order to negate a phrase or clause in Fijian, certain verbs are used to create this distinction. These verbs of negation are known as semi-auxiliary verbs. Semi-auxiliary verbs fulfil the functions of main verbs (in terms of syntactic form and pattern) and have a NP or complement clause as their subject (complements clauses within negation are introduced by relators ni (which refers to an event, which is generally a non-specific unit) or me (which refers is translated as "should", referring to the event within the complement clause should occur)). Within a complement clause, the semi-auxiliary verb qualifies the predicate.

Semi-auxiliary verbs
One semi-auxiliary verb used to express negation in Fijian is sega. This semi-auxiliary can be translated as either "there are no-" or "it is not the case that", depending on the subject it relates to. In terms of numerical expression, sega is also used to express the quantity "none". This negator can be used in almost all situations, with the exception of the imperative or in a me (classifier) clauses. When sega takes a NP as its subject, the meaning "there are no-" is assumed:

e sega a olii (i+na oro yai)

3SG not ART dog in+ART village this

"there are no dogs (in this village)"

Predicate clauses can also be negated in Fijian with the semi-auxiliary verb sega. This can only be completed when the predicate is placed into a complement clause. The subject of sega must also be ni, which introduces the complement clause. It is then translated as "it is not the case that (predicate clause)". An example of this construction is shown here:

e sega [ni lao o Jone]

3SG not that go ART John

"John is not going (lit: it is not the case that John is going)" Hence, the only way a verb (which is generally the head of a predicate phrase) can be negated in Fijian is when it forms part of the [e sega ni VERB] construction. However, in Fijian the head of a predicate phrase may belong to almost any word class. If another word (e.g. a noun) is used, the structure of negation alters. This distinction can be shown through diverse examples of the negating NPs in Fijian. The below examples show the difference between a noun as the head of a NP and a noun as the head of a predicate in a complement clause, within negation:

e sega a olii
 * NP as subject of sega

3SG not ART dog

"there is no dog"

e sega ni olii
 * Ni as the subject of sega

3SG not that dog

"it isn't a dog (it may be a cat)"

Additionally, sega can also work with relator se which introduces interrogative clauses. This combination creates a form translatable as "or not":

au tovele-a se ana vinaa a aa.ana yai (se sega)

1SG test-TR whether eat good ART food this or not

"I'll test whether this food tastes good or not"

Another common negator is ua or waaua, which is translatable as "don't, not". Differently to sega, this semi-auxiliary verb is used for imperatives and in me clauses. Therefore, these semi-auxiliaries are fixed, and cannot be used interchangeably. Ua and waaua have the same meaning, however waaua may be more intense; in most instances either semi-auxiliary verb can be used. ua ~ waaua can take a NP as its subject, but most commonly takes the ni complement as a subject, which is demonstrated below:

e aa taqo.-maini au o Jone me+u ua ni lau-.vacu

3SG PAST defend-TR 1SG ART Person should+1SG not that PASS-punch

"John defended me from being punched (lit: that I should not be punched)"

An example of ua ~ waaua used in imperative structure can be seen here:

au saa vei-.vutuni.-taina sara me+u saa waaua ni vaa-.yaco-ra tale a caa.caa yai i+na siga.tabu

1SG ASP repent-TR MODIF should+1SG ASP not INT make-happen-TR again ART REDUP-do INT on+ART Sunday

"I repented (of hunting pigs on the sabbath) so that I won't ever again do this activity on Sunday"

In the case of pronouns, they can only be negated when they form part of the NP, when acting as the predicate head. Therefore, pronouns cannot be the NP subject of semi-auxiliary verbs sega or ua ~ waaua in the way that general nouns can.

Combining semi-auxiliary verbs
Sega and ua ~ waaua can be combined with other auxiliary verbs to produce diverse constructions. Both sega and ua ~ waaua can connect with semi-auxiliary rawa can to negate the concept of possibility which is attached to the verb can (resulting in constructions such as can't and shouldn't).

Modifiers in negation
Two main modifiers, soti a lot and sara very; (go) right on, immediately play key roles in negation in Fijian, and work in conjunction with semi-auxiliary verbs. Soti is added after negators sega and ua ~ waaua, and functions as an intensity marker. The construction sega soti is translatable as not a lot of, not very. The sega soti construction requires an adjective (or an adverb which results from an adjective), and must take ni (complement clause) as its subject in order to function. Soti can be found in position immediately after sega, but may also be found after the ni relator without changing the meaning of the phrase. The primary construction is shown below:

au sega soti ni vuu me tautauvata ei Sepo

1SG not INT SUB clever should same with Person

"I'm not as clever as Sepo (lit: I am not clever, to be the same as Sepo)"

Similarly, to soti, the modifier sara very; (go) right on, immediately can also be used in conjunction with sega and ua ~ waaua. This combination is used to stress the negative sense and aspect of a phrase.

ua ni lai taaoo tale i Viidawa, lao sara i Orovou!

don't INT go held-up again AT Viidawa go INT to Orovou

"don't get held up at Viidawa (a place en route, where there may be some enticing event in progress), go straight on to Orovou!"

Pronouns and person markers
The pronominal system of Fijian is remarkably rich. Like many other languages, it recognises three persons; first person (speaker), second person (addressee), and third person (all other). There is no distinction between human, non-human, animate, or inanimate. Four numbers are represented; singular, dual, paucal, and plural—'paucal' refers to more than two people who have some relationship, as a family or work group; if none, 'plural' is used. Like many other Oceanic languages, Fijian pronouns are marked for number and clusivity.

Forms and function
Each pronoun can have five forms, but some person-number combinations may have the same form for more than one function, as can be seen in the table above.

The forms are:

Cardinal – used when a pronoun occurs as the head of a NP. A cardinal pronoun is usually preceded by the proper article o, except when preceded by a preposition:

era sa lao [o ira]

3PL ASP go ART 3PL

"They are going" (2)[24]

au aa soli-a [a niu] [vei ira]

1SG PAST give-TR ART coconut PREP 3PL

"I gave [the coconut] [to them]"

Subject – the first constituent of a predicate, acts as person marking. Examples can be seen in examples (1) and (2) above: era and au, and (3) below: o

Object – follows the -i-final form of a transitive verb:

o aa biu-ti ira

2SG PAST leave-TR 3PL

"You left them"

Possessive suffix – attaches to inalienable nouns, and

Possessive – precedes the NP head of the 'possessed' constituent in a possessive construction.

(For more information on the form and function of these possessive pronouns, see Possession.)

Use
The major clausal structure in Fijian minimally includes a predicate, which usually has a verb at its head. The initial element in the predicate is the subject form pronoun:

au lao

1SG go

"I am going" era lao

3PL go

"They are going"

This 'subject marker + verb' predicate construction is obligatory, every other constituent is optional. The subject may be expanded upon by an NP following the predicate:

era lao [a gone]

3PL go ART child

"[the children] are going" or "They [the children] are going"

The subject pronoun constituent of a predicate acts mainly as a person marker.

Fijian is a verb–object–subject language, and the subject pronoun may be translated as its equivalent in English, the subject NP of a clause in Fijian follows the verb and the object if it is included.

The social use of pronouns is largely driven by respect and hierarchy. Each of the non-singular second person pronouns can be used for a singular addressee. For example, if one's actual or potential in-laws are addressed, the 2DU pronoun should be used. Similarly, when a brother or sister of the opposite sex is addressed, the 2PA pronoun should be used, and it can also be used for same-sex siblings when the speaker wishes to show respect. The 2PL pronoun can be used to show respect to elders, particularly the village chief.

Possession
Possession is a grammatical term for a special relationship between two entities: a "possessor" and a "possessed". The relationship may be one of legal ownership, but in Fijian, like many other Austronesian languages, it is often much broader, encompassing kin relations, body parts, parts of an inanimate whole and personal qualities and concepts such as control, association and belonging.

Fijian has a complex system of possessive constructions, depending on the nature of the possessor and of the possessed. Choosing the appropriate structure depends on knowing whether the possessor is a personal or place name, a pronoun, or a common noun (with human or non-human, animate or inanimate reference), and also on whether the possessed is a free or bound noun.

Possessor
Only an animate noun may be a possessor in the true possessive constructions shown below, with possession marked on the possessed NP in a number of ways. For personal and place name possessors, the possessive construction may be made by affixing the possessive suffix –i to the possessed noun, bound or free. If the possessor is a pronoun, the possessed noun must be marked by one of the pronominal markers which specify person, number and inclusivity/exclusivity (see table). If the possessor is inanimate, the possessive particle ni is usually placed between the possessed NP and the possessor NP. The particle ni then indicates association, rather than formal possession, but the construction is still regarded as a possessive construction.

Possessed
Free nouns can stand alone and need no affix; most nouns in Fijian fall into this class. Bound nouns require a suffix to complete them and are written ending in a hyphen to indicate this requirement. Tama- father and tina- mother are examples of bound nouns. The classes of free and bound nouns roughly correspond with the concept, common in Austronesian languages, of alienable and inalienable possession, respectively. Alienable possession denotes a relationship in which the thing possessed is not culturally considered an inherent part of the possessor, and inalienable possession indicates a relationship in which the possessed is regarded as an intrinsic part of the possessor.

Body parts and kin relations are typical examples of inalienable possession. Inanimate objects are typical examples of alienable possession.

The alienable nature of free nouns is further marked by prefixes, known as classifiers, indicating certain other characteristics. Some common examples are me- when the possessed noun is something drinkable, ke- (or e) when the noun is something edible and we- when the referent of the possessed noun is personal property.

Possessive constructions
The word order of a possessive construction for all except inanimate possessors is possessed NP-classifier(CLF) + possessive marker (POSS) + possessor NP. For an inanimate possessor, the word order is possessed NP + ni + possessor NP.

Note that there is some degree of flexibility in the use of possessive constructions as described in this table.

Examples
a liga-i Paula

ART hand-POSS Paula

"Paula's hand" a waqona me-i Paula

ART kava CLF.drink-POSS Paula

"Paula's kava" a tama-mudrau

ART father-PN.2DU

"The father of you two" a liga-qu

ART hand-PN.1SG

"My hand" a me-na ti

ART CLF.drink-POSS.PN.3SG tea

"His / her tea" a e-mu uvi

ART CLF.eat-POSS-PN.2SG yam

"Your (SG) yam (for eating)." a liga-na

ART hand-PN.3SG

His / her hand a we-irau waqa o yau ei Jone

ART CLF.property-POSS.PN.1DU boat ART I and John

John's and my boat (thing owned). na yaca ni waqa

ART name POSS.PTCP boat

The name of the boat (The name associated with the boat) a vale ni kana

ART house POSS.PTCP eat

"A house of eating (A house associated with eating)" = "A restaurant"

Syntax
The normal Fijian word order is VOS (verb–object–subject): E rai-c-a na no-na motoka {o Jone.}

3SG-SUB see-TR-3SG-OBJ the 3SG-POSS car John.

John sees his car.

Greetings
Below are some examples of Fijian greetings.

Sample text
Era sucu ena galala na tamata yadua, era tautauvata ena nodra dokai kei na nodra dodonu. E tiko na nodra vakasama kei na nodra lewaeloma, sa dodonu mera veidokadokai ena yalo ni veitacini.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1

Grammatical abbreviations
 MODIF:modifier

National language debate
In May and June 2005, a number of prominent Fiji Islanders called for the status of Fijian to be upgraded. It was not an official language before the adoption of the 1997 Constitution, which made it co-official with English and Fiji Hindi. It is still not a compulsory subject in schools, but then Education Minister, Ro Teimumu Kepa, had endorsed calls for that to change, as had the former Great Council of Chiefs Chairman Ratu Ovini Bokini. Similar calls also came from Misiwini Qereqeretabua, the former Director of the Institute of Fijian Language and Culture, and from Apolonia Tamata, a linguistics lecturer at Suva's University of the South Pacific, both of whom said that recognition of the Fijian language is essential to the nation's basic identity and as a unifying factor in Fiji's multicultural society.

The Fiji Labour Party leader Mahendra Chaudhry also endorsed the call for Fijian to be made a national language and a compulsory school subject if the same status was given to Fiji Hindi, a position that was echoed by Krishna Vilas of the National Reconciliation Committee.

title: Fijian language


text:
Shashlik

Shashlik, or shashlyck (шашлык shashlyk), is a dish of skewered and grilled cubes of meat, similar to or synonymous with shish kebab. It is known traditionally by various other names in the Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and from the 19th century became popular as shashlik across much of the Russian Empire and nowadays in the Russian Federation and former Soviet Union republics.

Etymology and history
The word shashlik or shashlick entered English from the Russian, of Turkic origin. In Turkic languages, the word shish means skewer, and shishlik is literally translated as "skewerable". The word was coined from the "şış" ('spit') by the Zaporozhian Cossacks and entered Russian in the 18th century, from there spreading to English and other European languages. Prior to that, the Russian name for meat cooked on a skewer was ', from ', 'spit'. Shashlik did not reach Moscow until the late 19th century. From then on, its popularity spread rapidly; by the 1910s it was a staple in St Petersburg restaurants and by the 1920s it was already a pervasive street food all over urban Russia.

Preparation

Shashlik was originally made of lamb, but nowadays it is also made of pork, beef, chicken or venison, depending on local preferences and religious observances. The skewers are either threaded with meat only, or with alternating pieces of meat, fat, and vegetables, such as bell pepper, onion, mushroom and tomato. In Iranian cuisine, meat for shashlik (as opposed to other forms of shish kebab) is usually in large chunks, while elsewhere the form of medium-size meat cubes is maintained making it similar to brochette. The meat is marinated overnight in a high-acidity marinade like vinegar, dry wine or sour fruit/vegetable juice with the addition of onions, herbs and spices.

While it is not unusual to see shashlik today listed on the menu of restaurants, it is more commonly sold in many areas in the form of fast food by street vendors who roast the skewers on a mangal over wood, charcoal, or coal. It is also cooked in outdoor environments during social gatherings, similarly to barbecue in English-speaking countries. Despite the simplicity of preparing shashlik, the process of frying meat over an open fire can cause inconvenience for residents of apartment buildings.

title: Shashlik


text:
Commodore 64 demos

The Commodore 64 (C64) demos are demonstrations of what can be done to push the limits of the Commodore 64 computer, made by programmers, musicians and artists.

Though it was not unusual to find demos that displayed a single picture, only music tracks or a programming skill, groups were formed that consisted of members who were skilled in composing music, drawing graphics and programming. Full disk demos were produced, some of which would play music as the next file loaded, without any delay in the sound.

Various effects are achieved in demos, most of them due to undocumented side-effects pertaining to the MOS Technology VIC-II chip. Some examples are:
 * Sprite scrollers were placed in the border. By tricking the hardware not to draw the border around the screen, sprites could be moved into this area and displayed.
 * Sprites were multiplexed across vertical raster lines (over 8 sprites, sometimes up to 120 sprites). A common perception is that no more than 8 sprites could appear at once on the screen, but assigning new Y coordinates once it has started being drawn made it reappear further down the screen.
 * FLD (flexible line distance) moved bitmap or character rows an arbitrary number of vertical raster lines apart, making it possible to arbitrarily move any 8 pixel high graphic block smoothly up and down across the screen. Adding sine curves to this positioning provided a wavy effect.
 * FLI, or Flexible Line Interpretation, can be used to increase the number of unique colors which can appear in an 8×8 or 8×4 block on the screen. This mode is occasionally extended further with sprites and/or interlacing two bitmaps together (as in SHIFLI or UIFLI).  These modes usually cause the left-most 24 pixels of the display to become unusable.
 * FPP (Flexible Pixel Positioning), basically a variation of the FLI mode, allows the placement of any line of a character-based graphic at any one y-position, allowing for effects like x-rotating logos, barrel-like effects or smooth stretching and waving over the whole screen.
 * Tec-Tec (also Tech-Tech or Tic Tac) assigns a new x-position to any line of a graphic. By using animated sine waves you could for example wave a logo horizontally over the screen.
 * VSP (Variable Screen Positioning), also known as HSP, allows arbitrary x-placement of a bitmap, with the bitmap wrapping around at the border.
 * A Linecruncher allows the user to scroll a bitmap larger than one screen vertically without having to move all the bitmap data manually.
 * AGSP (Any Given Screen Position) is the combination of VSP and Linecruncher, for example making possible games with colorful bitmap graphics that scrolled, such as Hannes Sommer's "Fred's Back" series.

Followers of the C64 would see the growth of the demo scene. Gone were the single file demos with one scrolling text and no music. Full disk demos were produced, some of which would play music as the next file loaded, without any delay in the sound.

Hidden parts were included as was the occasional game implemented into a demo.

When the Commodore Amiga appeared, many former C64 demo programmers switched platforms and continued to make demos for the Amiga (see Amiga demos). The Atari demos were also heavily influenced by C64 demos. In the United Kingdom, the main alternative demo scene was the one of ZX Spectrum demos.

The C64 was popular in a time when local BBSes were also popular and used to communicate with other people. Software trading via mail was also common. Some C64 enthusiasts lament the loss of the social interaction that locally centered computer activities provided.

title: Commodore 64 demos


text:
User talk:Joinee Brake

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Here are some useful links in case you haven't already found them;

 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

Angela 15:11, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi. I'm afraid I've had to delete your friend James Frost as the article contained no useful information. If I'm mistaken and he is a person of note, then do have another go at producing an article. Deb 17:16, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Joinee Brake