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Second Intermediate Period of Egypt

The Second Intermediate Period dates from 1700 to 1550 BC. It marks a period when ancient Egypt was divided into smaller dynasties for a second time, between the end of the Middle Kingdom and the start of the New Kingdom. The concept of a Second Intermediate Period generally includes the 13th through to the 17th dynasties, however there is no universal agreement in Egyptology about how to define the period.

It is best known as the period when the Hyksos people of West Asia established the 15th Dynasty and ruled from Avaris, which, according to Manetho's Aegyptiaca, was founded by a king by the name of Salitis. The settling of these people may have occurred peacefully, although later recounts of Manetho portray the Hyksos "as violent conquerors and oppressors of Egypt".

The Turin King List from the time of Ramesses II remains the primary source for understanding the chronology and political history of the Second Intermediate Period, along with studying the typology of scarabs, beetle-shaped amulets mass-produced in Ancient Egypt and often inscribed with the names of rulers.

Collapse of the Middle Kingdom
The 12th Dynasty of Egypt ended in the late 19th century BC with the death of Queen Sobekneferu. She had no heirs, causing the dynasty to come to an abrupt end, and with it, the most prosperous era of the Middle Kingdom; it was succeeded by the much weaker 13th Dynasty. According to the Byzantine chronicler George Syncellus, all three sources of the translated king list of Africanus, Eusebius, and the Armenian of Eusebius state that the 13th Dynasty had sixty kings that ruled and lived in Dioplus for roughly 453 years. Retaining the seat of the 12th Dynasty, the 13th Dynasty (c. 1773 – 1650 BC) ruled from Itjtawy ("Seizer-of-the-Two-Lands") for most of its existence.

Migration to Thebes
The 13th Dynasty switched to Thebes in the far south possibly in the reign of Merneferre Ay. Daphna Ben Tor believes that this event was triggered by the invasion of the eastern Delta and the Memphite region by Canaanite rulers, who had their own culture, a variant of the contemporary late Palestinian Middle Bronze Age culture of the southern Levant. For some authors, this marks the end of the Middle Kingdom and the beginning of the Second Intermediate Period. This analysis is rejected by Ryholt and Baker however, who note that the stele of Seheqenre Sankhptahi, reigning toward the end of the dynasty, strongly suggests that he reigned over Memphis. The stele is of unknown provenance.

Though the 13th Dynasty may have controlled Upper Egypt, the 14th Dynasty ruled Lower Egypt, and both houses agreed to co-exist allowing trade. Evidently the rulers had trouble with securing power within their territory, being replaced in rapid fashion, but other factors like famine may have played a part. The eventual collapse of the 13th Dynasty became an opening for two smaller dynasties to take control of Egypt.

Transitional period
Similar to the First Intermediate Period of Egypt, the Second Intermediate Period was dynamic time in which rule of Egypt was roughly divided between rival power bases in Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, each controlling a portion of land.

14th Dynasty
The 13th Dynasty proved unable to hold on to the entire territory of Egypt, and a provincial ruling family, located in the Nile Delta, broke away from the central authority to form the 14th Dynasty (c. 1700–1650 BC). According to Syncellus, all three sources agree that the 14th Dynasty had seventy-six kings and their court was located in Xois, now modern day Sakha, although they provide different numbers of years ruled. Africanus stated the dynasty reigned for 184 years, while the Armenian version of Eusebius states 484 years. Eusebius states the same as Africanus, but in another copy the same number as the Armenian version.

The precise borders of the 14th Dynasty state are not known, due to the general scarcity of its monuments. In his study of the Second Intermediate Period, Kim Ryholt concludes that the territory directly controlled by the 14th Dynasty roughly consisted of the Nile Delta, with borders located near Athribis in the western Delta and Bubastis in the east. Most modern Egyptologists share the view that Avaris – rather than Xois – was the 14th Dynasty's seat of power.

Contested rulers proposed by Ryholt as the first five rulers of the dynasty are commonly identified as being of Canaanite (Semitic) descent based on their names. His conclusions about their chronological position within the period are contested in Ben Tor's study. Other sources don't refer to the dynasty as foreign or Hyksos and they were not referred to as "rulers of foreign lands" or "shepherd kings" in kings lists.

The contested rulers (with the translation of their nomens) are:

 * Yakbim Sekhaenre ("Yakbim" means "(the goddess) Aya is a rock")
 * Ya'ammu Nubwoserre ("Ya'ammu" means "where is the uncle?")
 * Qareh Khawoserre ("Qareh" means "the bald one")
 * 'Ammu Aahotepre ("'Ammu" could mean "the Asiatic")
 * Sheshi Maaibre ("Sheshi" is a Semitic name)

The most attested, non-contested ruler of the dynasty, Nehesy Aasehre, left his name on two monuments at Avaris. His name means "the Nubian". According to Ryholt, he was the son and direct successor of the pharaoh Sheshi with a Nubian Queen named Tati.

The 14th Dynasty saw great success during their early years, but like the late 13th Dynasty, the rulers were replaced in rapid succession. The 14th Dynasty was overthrown by the Hyksos.

15th Dynasty
The Hyksos established their own dynasty in Egypt, the 15th Dynasty (c.1650 to 1550 BC). The first king of the 15th Dynasty, Salitis, described as a Hyksos (ḥḳꜣw-ḫꜣswt, a "shepherd" according to Africanus), led his people into an occupation of the Nile Delta area and settled his capital at Avaris. According to Manetho, Salitis is believed to have conquered the entirety of Egypt, however it is more likely that his rule did not extend beyond Lower Egypt. Salitis may be equated to a poorly known king named Sharek, and possibly even Sheshi, the most attested ruler of the Second Intermediate Period. The Turin King list indicates that there were six Hyksos kings, with an obscure Khamudi listed as the final king of the 15th Dynasty.

The 15th Dynasty of Egypt ruled from Avaris but did not control the entire land, leaving some of northern Upper Egypt under the control of both the Abydos Dynasty and the early 16th Dynasty. The 16th Dynasty was ruled not by the Hyksos themselves, but the Thebans. It is debated if the movement of the Hyksos was a military invasion or a mass migration of Asiatics from Palestine. The settling of Canaanite populations may have occurred peacefully in the wake of the disintegration of the 14th Dynasty. A recent Strontium isotope analysis also dismissed the invasion model in favor of a migration one. Contrary to the model of a foreign invasion, the study didn't find more males moving into the region, but instead found a sex bias towards females, with a high proportion (77%) being non-locals.

Abydos Dynasty
The Abydos Dynasty (c. 1640 to 1620 BC.) may have been a short-lived local dynasty ruling over part of Upper Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period in Ancient Egypt and was contemporary with the 15th and 16th dynasties. The Abydos Dynasty stayed rather small with rulership over just Abydos or Thinis. Very little is known about the Abydos dynasty, since it was a very short-lived, though we do have some king names that appear in Turin king list, but it not in any other sources.

The dynasty tentatively includes four rulers: Wepwawetemsaf, Pantjeny, Snaaib, and Senebkay. The Abydos Dynasty ceased when the Hyksos expanded into Upper Egypt.

16th Dynasty
The 16th Dynasty (c. 1650-1580 BC) ruled the Theban region in Upper Egypt. Of the two chief versions of Manetho's Aegyptiaca, the 16th Dynasty is described by the more reliable Africanus (supported by Syncellus) as "shepherd [Hyksos] kings", but by Eusebius as Theban.

The continuing war against the 15th Dynasty dominated the short-lived 16th Dynasty. The armies of the 15th Dynasty, winning town after town from their southern enemies, continually encroached on 16th Dynasty territory, eventually threatening and then conquering Thebes itself. Famine, which had plagued Upper Egypt during the late 13th Dynasty and the 14th Dynasty, also blighted the 16th Dynasty, most evidently during and after the reign of Neferhotep III.

The end of the 16th Dynasty came after relentless military pressure by the succeeding 15th Dynasty after many attempts, with evidence of Nebiryraw I's own personal seals being found in the Hyksos territory. Sometime around 1580 BC, the 16th Dynasty collapsed after being conquered by King Khyan of the Hyksos 15th Dynasty.

17th Dynasty
The 17th Dynasty (c.1571-1540 BC) was established by the Thebans quickly after the fall of the 16th. The details of the overthrow of the Hyksos in Thebes are unclear. Sources such as Africanus and Eusebius indicate that the 16th Dynasty comprised shepherd kings (like the 15th Dynasty), but also Theban kings too.

The 17th Dynasty would also see four different ruling families whose last king did not have a male heir to the throne. Subsequently, other powerful families established kings having short reigns. The 17th Dynasty maintained a short-lived peace with the 15th Dynasty, which ended with the start of the reign of Seqenenre (c. 1549-1545 BC), who started a series of wars against the Hyksos. King Kamose (c. 1545-1540 BC) continued the war against the Hyksos as a whole, but his brother Ahmose I would be the king to deal the final blow; he thus became the first king of the New Kingdom 18th Dynasty.

Reunification
At the end of the Second Intermediate period, the 18th Dynasty came to power in Egypt. The first king of the 18th Dynasty, Ahmose, completed the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt and consolidated his rule over the land, unifying Upper and Lower Egypt. With that, Ahmose ushered in a new period of prosperity, the New Kingdom.

title: Second Intermediate Period of Egypt


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Kontakto

Kontakto is an Esperanto magazine published by TEJO and supported by the Universal Esperanto Association (UEA). It's 6 annual issues have readers in about 100 countries of the world. It started in 1963 through a proposal of the UEA committee by Humphrey Tonkin, who became its first editor in chief and who provided a magazine that touched on topics of interest to Esperanto youth. The magazine often used the slogan "In Esperanto, but not about Esperanto."

In the early 1980s, Anna Lowenstein became the editor. Her contributions to the magazine included easy-to-read articles, which concerned serious topics, but were written in simple language suitable for beginning Esperanto learners. This continues to be a primary focus for the magazine.

List of editors

 * Humphrey Tonkin
 * Stefan Maul
 * Simo Milojevic
 * Giorgio Silfer (1975–1977)
 * Jouko Lindstedt (1978)
 * Giulio Cappa (1978–1979)
 * Dario Besseghini
 * Anna Lowenstein
 * Leif Nordenstorm
 * Francisco Javier Moleón (1990)
 * István Ertl (1990–1991)
 * Francisco Veuthey (1992–1998)
 * Sabira Stahlberg (1998–2001)
 * Yevgenia Amis (Ĵenja Zvereva Amis) (2002–2007)
 * Pavel Mozhayev (2007–2010)
 * Rogener Pavinski (2010-2023)
 * Karina Oliveira (2023-)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kontakto


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Francis Wheen

Francis James Baird Wheen (born 22 January 1957) is a British journalist, writer and broadcaster.

Early life and education
Wheen was born into an army family and educated at two independent schools: Copthorne Preparatory School near Crawley, West Sussex, and Harrow School in north west London. At Harrow, he was briefly a contemporary of Mark Thatcher, who has been a subject of his journalism.

Career
Running away from Harrow at 16 "to join the alternative society," Wheen had early periods as a "dogsbody" at The Guardian and the New Statesman before attending Royal Holloway College, University of London, following a period spent at a crammer.

Wheen is the author of several books, including a biography of Karl Marx which won the Deutscher Memorial Prize in 1999, and has been translated into twenty languages. He followed this with a notional "biography" of Das Kapital, which follows the creation and publication of the first volume of Marx's major work as well as other incomplete volumes. Wheen had a column in The Guardian for several years. He wrote for Private Eye and became the magazine's deputy editor. He retired from Private Eye in October 2022, though he still occasionally contributes.

His collected journalism, Hoo-hahs and Passing Frenzies, won him the Orwell Prize in 2003. He has also been a regular columnist for the London Evening Standard.

In April 2012, Wheen suffered the loss of his entire book collection, his "life's work", and an unfinished novel, in a garden shed fire.

Broadcasting work
Wheen broadcasts regularly, mainly on BBC Radio 4, has made many appearances on The News Quiz, in which he has often referred to the fact that he resembles the former Conservative Party leader Iain Duncan Smith. He has also several times been a guest on Have I Got News for You.

Wheen wrote a docudrama, The Lavender List, for BBC Four on the final period of Harold Wilson's premiership, concentrating on his relationship with Marcia Williams, which first screened in March 2006. It starred Kenneth Cranham as Wilson and Gina McKee as Williams. In April 2007, the BBC paid £75,000 to Williams (then Baroness Falkender) in an out-of-court settlement over claims made in the programme.

Political views
Wheen was opposed to the Falklands War. In an article syndicated to a number of American newspapers, Wheen stated: "In a famous British play of the 1950s, Look Back in Anger, the hero complained that 'there aren't any good, brave causes to fight for anymore'. Mrs Thatcher apparently agrees with this view, so she went to war over a small, ignoble cause." Wheen is a supporter of the anti-monarchist group Republic.

Wheen supported NATO's Kosovo intervention in 1999, signed the Euston Manifesto for a realignment of progressive politics and supported the second Iraq War.

In late 2005, Wheen was the co-author with David Aaronovitch and blogger Oliver Kamm, both contributors to The Times, of a complaint to The Guardian after it published an apology and correction in respect of an interview with Noam Chomsky by Emma Brockes which had been published at the end of October 2005; Chomsky had complained that the interview was defamatory in suggesting that he denied the 1995 Srebrenica massacre by his defence of a book by Diana Johnstone.

Francis Wheen was intensely critical of Foreign Office minister Baroness Anelay's failure to condemn the torture of Raif Badawi by the government of Saudi Arabia in 2016. Wheen maintained that Anelay's approach was motivated by her wish to sell arms to the Saudi régime.

Personal life
Wheen was married to the writer Joan Smith between 1985 and 1993. He has been the partner for 27 years of Julia Jones (formerly Julia Thorogood) since the mid-1990s whom he married in 2019; they have two sons.

In 2014, Wheen waived his right to anonymity in order to speak about being a victim of Charles Napier, one-time treasurer of the defunct Paedophile Information Exchange, after the former teacher was convicted of sexually abusing 23 boys between 1967 and 1983. Wheen described his experience as less serious than that of other victims, and had only become aware of the scale of Napier's activities later.

Wheen was a close friend of the writer Christopher Hitchens.

Partial bibliography

 * The Sixties (1982) ISBN 0-7126-0018-3
 * Television: A History (1984) ISBN 0-7126-0929-6
 * Battle for London (1985) ISBN 0-7453-0054-5
 * Tom Driberg: His Life and Indiscretions (1990) ISBN 0-7011-3143-8
 * The Chatto Book of Cats (Chatto Anthologies) Francis Wheen, editor, John O'Connor, illustrator (1993) ISBN 0-7011-4005-4
 * Lord Gnome's Literary Companion (1994) ISBN 1-85984-945-8
 * Karl Marx (1999) ISBN 1-85702-637-3
 * Who Was Dr. Charlotte Bach? (2002) ISBN 1-904095-39-9
 * Hoo-hahs and Passing Frenzies: Collected Journalism, 1991–2001 (2002) ISBN 1-903809-42-8 (mainly consisting of columns written for The Guardian)
 * The Irresistible Con: The Bizarre Life of a Fraudulent Genius (2004) ISBN 1-904095-74-7
 * Shooting Out the Lights (2004) ISBN 0-00-714943-3
 * How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered the World (2004) ISBN 0-00-714096-7; in the US and Canada: Idiot Proof: A Short History of Modern Delusions (2004) ISBN 1-58648-247-5
 * Marx's Das Kapital: A Biography (2006) ISBN 978-1-84354-400-5
 * Strange Days Indeed: The Golden Age of Paranoia (2009) ISBN 978-0-00-724427-0

title: Francis Wheen


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Democratic Party of Ivory Coast – African Democratic Rally

The Democratic Party of Ivory Coast – African Democratic Rally (Parti Démocratique de la Côte d'Ivoire — Rassemblement Démocratique Africain; abbreviated PDCI-RDA) is a centre-right political party in Ivory Coast.

History
Founded during the colonial era in 1946, as an outgrowth of the African Agricultural Union, and initially affiliated with the French Communist Party, it became the only legal party in the country upon independence in 1960. For the next 30 years, the PDCI and the government were effectively one. Every five years, its founder and leader, Félix Houphouët-Boigny, was automatically elected to a five-year term as president of the republic and confirmed in office via a referendum. At the same time, a single list of PDCI candidates was returned to the National Assembly.

All adult Ivorians were required to be members of the party, which was considered the primary intermediary between the government and the people. Even after opposition parties were legalised in 1990, the PDCI continued to dominate Ivorian politics. At the 1990 elections, Houphouët-Boigny was reelected with an implausible 81 percent of the vote, and the party won all but 12 seats in the legislature.

Houphouët-Boigny led the party from its formation until his death in 1993. A year later, acting president of the republic Henri Konan Bédié became the party's second leader. He served out Houphouët-Boigny's seventh term, and was elected in his own right in 1995 with over 96 percent of the vote; the opposition parties had boycotted the election in protest of new eligibility requirements that they deemed unfair. The party lost power when Bédié was ousted in a December 1999 coup.

The PDCI announced in early 2000 that it would hold a congress to choose new leadership, and Bédié denounced this as a "putsch"; the party decided to retain Bédié in the leadership, however. In August, Bédié and four other PDCI members registered as candidates in the October 2000 presidential election; shortly afterward, Emile Constant Bombet, who had served as Interior Minister under Bédié, defeated Bédié for the PDCI presidential nomination. Bombet and Bédié were both barred from running by the Constitutional Court in early October, and on October 10 Bédié called for a boycott of the election.

Unlike many former single parties in Africa, the PDCI has made a good account of itself since losing power. In the parliamentary election held on 10 December 2000 and 14 January 2001, the party won 94 out of 225 seats.

On 18 May 2005, the PDCI and the Rally of the Republicans (RDR), despite a history of hostility towards one another (the RDR had been formed as a liberal splinter from the PDCI in 1994), signed an agreement to form a coalition, the Rally of Houphouëtists for Democracy and Peace, along with two smaller parties, the Union for Democracy and Peace in Ivory Coast (UDPCI) and the Movement of the Forces of the Future (MFA), ahead of the presidential election then planned for October 2005. This election was delayed several times, finally held in 2010. By that time, the two parties had resumed competing against each other.

At the 11 December 2011 parliamentary election, the PDCI remained the principal opposition party, with 76 seats.

At the 2016 parliamentary election, the Rally of Houphouëtists for Democracy and Peace (composed of the RDR, the PDCI and some minor parties) won a strong majority at the National Assembly.

At the 2021 Ivorian parliamentary election, the PDCI only gained around 6% of the vote and 23 seats. The Rally of Houphouëtists for Democracy and Peace won, in contrast, 49% of the vote and now have 137 seats in the parliament.


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Gabonese Democratic Party

The Gabonese Democratic Party (Parti démocratique gabonais, PDG) is a political party in Gabon. It was the dominant political party in Gabonese politics from 1961 until 2023, when it was deposed in a coup d'état against President Ali Bongo Ondimba. It was also the sole legal party between 1968 and 1990.

History
The party was established as the Gabonese Democratic Bloc (Bloc Démocratique Gabonais, BDG) in 1953 as a merger of the Gabonese Mixed Committee and the Gabonese Democratic Party. In the 1957 Territorial Assembly elections it won eight seats, finishing behind the Gabonese Democratic and Social Union (UDSG), which had won 14 seats. However, the BDG was able to form a coalition government with the "Entente–Defence of Gabonese Interests" list, headed by one of its members, and five independents.

The BDG and UDSG formed an alliance prior to the 1961 general elections, with BDG leader Léon M'ba as the sole presidential candidate, and a joint "National Union" list running unopposed for the National Assembly. The 1964 parliamentary elections saw the two parties run against each other, with the BDG winning 31 of the 47 seats.

The BDG was the only party to contest the 1967 general elections, with M'ba re-elected as President. M'ba died later in the year and was succeeded by Omar Bongo. On 12 March 1968 the BDG was succeeded by the Gabonese Democratic Party, which became the sole legal party. The PDG and Bongo were re-elected in one-party elections in 1973, 1980 and 1985, before constitutional amendments in May 1990 re-established the multi-party system.

The PDG retained power in the 1990 parliamentary elections, winning 63 of the 120 seats in the National Assembly. Bongo was re-elected again in 1993 with 51% of the vote. The party won 85 seats in the 1996 parliamentary elections, and Bongo was re-elected for a fifth time in 1998, with 67% of the vote. The PDG gained one seat in the 2001 parliamentary elections and Bongo was re-elected again in 2005 with 79% of the vote.

The 2006 parliamentary elections saw the PDG reduced to 82 seats, although it comfortably retained its majority and affiliated parties won a further 17 seats. Bongo died in 2009, and his son Ali Bongo Ondimba became PDG leader. He won presidential elections later in the year with 42% of the vote. The BDG won 113 seats in the 2011 parliamentary elections, which were boycotted by most of the opposition.

Congresses
On 17–21 September 1986, the PDG held its Third Ordinary Congress in Libreville; at the congress, it designated Bongo as its candidate for the single-party November 1986 presidential election.

From 1991 to 1994, the Secretary-General of the PDG was Jacques Adiahénot.

The PDG held its Ninth Ordinary Congress on 19–21 September 2008. At this congress, Faustin Boukoubi, who had been Minister of Agriculture, was elected as the party's Secretary-General; he replaced Simplice Guedet Manzela, who had previously been the Secretary-General for ten years. Also at the congress, the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau, composed of 18 members, was elected. The Standing Committee included two members from each of Gabon's nine provinces, and 15 of its 18 members were also members of the government.

PDG has several branches (or 'Federations') abroad, with the largest being in France and in the United States.

title: Gabonese Democratic Party


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Video game modding

Video game modding (short for "modification") is the process of alteration by players or fans of one or more aspects of a video game, such as how it looks or behaves, and is a sub-discipline of general modding. Mods may range from small changes and tweaks to complete overhauls, and can extend the replay value and interest of the game.

Modding a game can also be understood as the act of seeking and installing mods to the player's game, but the act of tweaking pre-existing settings and preferences is not truly modding.

Mods have arguably become an increasingly important factor in the commercial success of some games, as they add depth to the original work, and can be both fun for players playing the mods and as a means of self-expression for mod developers.

People can become fans of specific mods, in addition to fans of the game they are for, such as requesting features and alterations for these mods. In cases where mods are very popular, players might have to clarify that they are referring to the unmodified game when talking about playing a game. The term vanilla is often used to make this distinction. "Vanilla Minecraft", for example, refers to the original, unmodified game.

As early as the 1980s, video game mods have also been used for the sole purpose of creating art, as opposed to an actual game. This can include recording in-game actions as a film, as well as attempting to reproduce real-life areas inside a game with no regard for game play value. This has led to the rise of artistic video game modification, as well as machinima and the demoscene.

Popular games can have tens of thousands of mods created for them.

Development
Many mods are not publicly released to the gaming community by their creators. Some are very limited and just include some gameplay changes or even a different loading screen, while others are total conversions and can modify content and gameplay extensively. A few mods become very popular and convert themselves into distinct games, with the rights getting bought and turning into an official modification, or in some cases a stand-alone title that does not require the original game to play.

Technical and social skills are needed to create a mod. A group of mod developers may join to form a "mod team".

Doom (1993) was the first game to have a large modding community. In exchange for the technical foundation to mod, id Software insisted that mods should only work with the retail version of the game (not the demo), which was respected by the modders and boosted Doom's sales. Another factor in the popularity of modding Doom was the increasing popularity of the Internet, which allowed modding communities to form. Mods for Quake (1996) such as "Capture the Flag" and "Team Fortress" became standard features in later games in the shooter genre. While first-person shooters are popular games to mod, the virtual pet genre with games such as Petz (1995) and Creatures (1996) fostered younger modders, particularly girls.

Tools
Mod-making tools are a variety of construction sets for creating mods for a game. Early commercial mod-making tools were the Boulder Dash Construction Kit (1986) and The Bard's Tale Construction Set (1991), which allowed users to create game designs in those series. Much more successful among early mod-making tools was the 1992 Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures from Strategic Simulations, Inc., which allowed users to construct games based on the game world that was launched with the Pool of Radiance game.

By the mid-1990s, modding tools were commonly offered with PC games, and by the early 2000s, a game that launched with no modding tools was considered more worthy of note in a review than one that did. Maxis released the modding tools for The Sims (2000) before the game itself, resulting in a suite of fan-created mods being available at launch. The advertising campaign for Neverwinter Nights (2002) focused on the included Aurora toolset. The World Editor for Warcraft III (2002) allowed a variety of custom scenarios or maps to be created for the game, such as a number of tower defense and multiplayer online battle arena maps, the most notable of which was Defense of the Ancients. The provision of tools is still seen as the most practical way that a company can signal to fans that its game is open for modding. Fans may also use and create open-source software tools for modding games. Generative AI is expected to make developing for hobby projects easier, particularly with assets such as textures and dialogue, though this also led to ethical issues over its use especially with voice actors who expressed concern regarding their characters' voices being cloned without their consent.

There are also free content delivery tools available that make playing mods easier. They help manage downloads, updates, and mod installation in order to allow people who are less technically literate to play. Steam's "Workshop" service, for example, allows a user to easily download and install mods in supported games.

Game support for modifications
The potential for end-user change in game varies greatly, though it can have little correlation with the number and quality of mods made for a game.

In general the most modification-friendly games will define gameplay variables in text or other non proprietary format files (for instance in the Civilization series one could alter the movement rate along roads and many other factors), and have graphics of a standard format such as bitmaps. Publishers can also determine mod-friendliness in the way important source files are available, such as Doom having its art assets separate from the main program, which allows them to be shared and modified.

Games have varying support from their publishers for modifications, but often require expensive professional software to make. One such example is Homeworld 2 (2003), which requires the program Maya to build new in-game objects. However, there are free versions of Maya and other advanced modeling software available. There are also free and even open-source modeling programs (such as Blender) that can be used as well.

For advanced mods such as Desert Combat that are total conversions, complicated modeling and texturing software are required to make original content. Advanced mods can rival the complexity and work of making the original game content (short of the engine itself), rendering the differences in ease of modding small in comparison to the total amount of work required. Having an engine that is for example easy to import models to, is of little help when doing research, modeling, and making a photorealistic texture for a game item. As a result, other game characteristics such as its popularity and capabilities have a dominating effect on the number of mods created for the game by users.

A game that allows modding is said to be "moddable". The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (2011) as well as its predecessors, Morrowind (2002) and Oblivion (2006), are examples of highly moddable games, with an official editor available for download from the developer. Daggerfall (1996) was much less moddable, but some people released their own modifications nevertheless. Some modifications such as Gunslingers Academy have deliberately made the game more moddable by adding in scripting support or externalizing underlying code. Supreme Commander (2007) set out to be the 'most customisable game ever' and as such included a mod manager which allowed for modular modding, having several mods on at once.

The game industry is currently facing the question of how much it should embrace the players' contribution in creating new material for the game or mod-communities as part of their structure within the game. Some software companies openly accept and even encourage such communities. Others though have chosen to enclose their games in heavily policed copyright or Intellectual Property regimes (IPR) and close down sites that they see as infringing their ownership of a game.

Portability issues
For cross-platform games, mods written for the Windows version have not always been compatible with the Mac OS X and/or Linux ports of the game. In large part, this is due to the publisher's concern with prioritizing the porting of the primary game itself, when allocating resources for fixing the porting of mod-specific functions may not be cost-effective for the smaller market share of alternate platforms. For example, Battlefield 1942, ported by Aspyr for Mac OS X, had file access issues specific to mods until the 1.61D patch. Unreal Tournament 2004 does not have a working community mods menu for the Mac OS X version and, until the 3369 patch, had graphics incompatibilities with several mods such as Red Orchestra and Metaball.

Also, mods compiled into platform-specific libraries, such as those of Doom 3, are often only built for the Windows platform, leading to a lack of cross-platform compatibility even when the underlying game is highly portable. In the same line of reasoning, mod development tools are often available only on the Windows platform. id Software's Doom 3 Radiant tool and Epic Games' UnrealEd are examples of this.

Mod teams that lack either the resources or know-how to develop their mods for alternate platforms sometimes outsource their code and art assets to individuals or groups who are able to port the mod.

The mod specialist site for Macs, Macologist, has created GUI launchers and installers for many UT2004 mods, as well as solving cross-platform conversion issues for mods for other games.

Unforeseen consequences or benefits of modding
In January 2005, it was reported that in The Sims 2 (2004) modifications that changed item and game behavior were unexpectedly being transferred to other players through the official website's exchange feature, leading to changed game behavior without advance warning.

After the "Hot Coffee" mod incident, there were calls from the industry to better control modders. There is concern about mods that show nudity, and Bethesda does not allow mods with such content to be uploaded on its website. Nexus allows for mods which allow nudity as long as nudity is not present in the preview image. One of the most popular mods of this type is Caliente's Beautiful Bodies Edition, which allows for body modification in Bethesda's Skyrim and Fallout 4, and has been downloaded at least 8.2 million times.

In 2015, members from the Grand Theft Auto fan site GTAForums reported instances of malware being circulated through modifications written for Grand Theft Auto V. Two of the modifications in question, namely "Angry Planes" and "No Clip", came with code for loading a remote access tool, and a keylogger for stealing Facebook and Steam account credentials. The modifications in question have since been taken out of circulation, with affected players being advised to change their social media account passwords and disinfect their computers.

The National Crime Agency of the UK has indicated that modding can act as a pathway to cybercrime for some people.

Motivations of modders
The Internet provides an inexpensive medium to promote and distribute user created content like mods, an aspect commonly known as Web 2.0. Video game modding was described as remixing of games and can be therefore seen as part of the remix culture as described by Lawrence Lessig, or as a successor to the playful hacker culture that produced the first video games.

Mods can be both useful to players and a means of self-expression. Three motivations have been identified by Olli Sotamaa for fans to create mods: to patch the game, to express themselves, and to get a foot in the door of the video game industry. It has been noted that these motivations encompass intrinsic and extrinsic motivations. Poor suggests becoming a professional is not a major motivation of modders, noting that they tend to have a strong sense of community, and that older modders, who may already have established careers, are less motivated by the possibility of becoming professional than younger modders.

History
One of the first games that supported user modifications as packaged was Lode Runner (1983), which included a level editor which users could make and save levels to share with other players on the same computer.

id Software's Wolfenstein 3D (1992), one of the earliest first-person shooters, was released in a form that did not intend for users to be able to mod the game, but users were able to find ways to manipulate the game's files after scouring them for data locations to create their own levels and graphics. Because of this, when id developed their next game, Doom, they purposely separated the game engine and other aspects related to the game's operation from the game levels and graphics, placing these into a WAD file, "WAD" short for "Where's All the Data?" In this manner, modders only needed to change the WAD file to mod the game, launching numerous Doom modding efforts. id's approach of separating data file from execution files became essential for modding of video games in the future.

Official status of mods
Mods can extend the shelf life of games, such as Half-Life (1998), which increased its sales figures over the first three years of its release. According to the director of marketing at Valve, a typical shelf-life for a game would be 12 to 18 months, even if it was a "mega-hit". In early 2012, the DayZ modification for ARMA 2 was released and caused a massive increase in sales for the three-year-old game, putting it in the top spot for online game sales for a number of months and selling over 300,000 units for the game. In some cases, modders who are against piracy have created mods that enforce the use of a legal game copy.

Half-Life had a Valve-run annual mod expo which began in 1999, showcasing the new games built using the Half-Life engine.

Due to the increasing popularity and quality of modding, some developers, such as Firaxis, have included fan-made mods in official releases of expansion packs. A similar case is that of Valve, when they hired Defense of the Ancients lead designer IceFrog in developing Dota 2.

For example, a number of fan-made maps, scenarios and mods, such as the "Best of the Net" collection and "Double Your Pleasure", were included in the Civilization II expansion Fantastic Worlds and the Civilization III expansion Play the World, and in the Civilization IV expansion Beyond the Sword, two existing mods, Rhye's and Fall of Civilization and Fall from Heaven were included with the expansion (the latter through a spin-off called Age of Ice ). Sid Meier, who had opposed supporting mods in Civilization II, said that "the strength of the modding community is ... the very reason the series survived".

Legal status of mods
Copyright law, as it relates to video games and mod packs, is an evolving and largely unsettled legal issue. The legal uncertainty revolves around which party is legally the 'copyright owner' of the mods within the pack—the company that produced the game, the end-user that created the compilation, or the creators of the individual mods. Video games are protected by copyright law as a "literary work". In the United States context, the mechanisms of how the modder gets into the code of the game to mod it may violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act or the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or even simply the end-user license agreement (EULA). Most EULAs forbid modders from selling their mods. A particular concern of companies is the use of copyrighted material by another company in mods, such as a Quake "Aliens vs. Predator" mod, which was legally contested by 20th Century Fox. Some companies, such as Nintendo, discourage modding through aggressive litigation, strict EULAs and Terms and Conditions for their property. Mods themselves may introduce other copyrighted elements into video games which further complicate matters.

Some regard the fan use of copyrighted material in mods to be part of a "moral economy", and develop norms about the reuse of this material, often settling on a system of shared ownership, where mods and code are freely shared with the common good in mind. It has been argued that total conversion mods may be covered in the United States under the concept of fair use.

Modding can be compared with the open-source-software movement and open-source video game development.

In 2006, part of the reason that Second Life generated interest was how user-generated content (mods) was central to the experience, and how the intellectual property rights remained with the creator-player. This was developed by the publisher into a market.

Controversy surrounding paid mods
In April 2015, Valve implemented a "paid mod" feature onto Steam; the first game to implement this feature was The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. The move resulted in a swift backlash from the modding community, and after an enormous influx of complaints of overpriced mods, content that had been published without its creator's consent, and concerns over mods that contained third-party copyrighted content (i.e., material that neither Valve nor the mod creator owned), Valve discontinued the 'paid mod' feature entirely and agreed to refund those that spent money to purchase a mod. Other concerns identified included that being able to mod the game was a reason why players bought the game on PC in the first place, and a worry that newbie modders would not be able to stand on the shoulders of giants by modding pre-existing mods, and that mod teams would become unworkable. The removal of the system itself was also criticized.

Total conversion
A total conversion is a mod of an existing game that replaces virtually all of the artistic assets in the original game, and sometimes core aspects of gameplay. Total conversions can result in a completely different genre from the original.

The Half-Life modding community splintered across the different total conversions available, often modding for a particular total conversion rather than Half-Life in general. Examples of famous total conversions include Counter-Strike (1999), whose developers were hired by Valve to turn it into a commercial product, Defense of the Ancients (2003), which was the first MOBA to have sponsored tournaments, and Garry's Mod (2006), for which fans created thousands of game modes over its decade-long development.

Many popular total conversions are later turned into standalone games, replacing any remaining original assets to allow for commercial sale without copyright infringement. Some of these mods are even approved for sale despite using the IP of the original game, such as Black Mesa.

Overhaul
An overhaul mod significantly changes an entire game's graphics and gameplay, usually with the intent to improve on the original, but not going as far as being a completely different experience. This can also include adding revised dialog and music.

Examples of overhaul mods include Deus Ex: Revision, which was given permission from publisher Square Enix to release on Steam alongside the original game, and GTA 5 Redux, which not only improves the original game's textures, but also adds a new weather system, visual effects, and adjusts the wanted system, weapons, and vehicle handling.

Randomizer
Randomizers are a type of user mod, typically atop games of the 8-bit and 16-bit generations, that keep the fundamental gameplay but randomize elements of the game to make it more of a challenge. Randomizers came out of the speedrunning community which had exhausted the challenge of racing through the game with one of the earliest being for The Legend of Zelda around 2015. In the Zelda randomizer, the mod moved the location of the dungeons, the layout of these dungeons, and the location of enemies in a random but procedurally generated manner (similar to roguelikes) based on a numerical seed, so that speedrunners would have to overcome these new changes. Their popularity grew as randomizer playthroughs were popular with streaming media. Some games have offered official randomizer modes in the game itself, such as Cassette Beasts in 2023, or in downloadable content, including Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night in 2020, and Axiom Verge in 2021.

Add-on
An add-on or addon is a typically small mod which adds to the original content of a specific game. In most cases, an add-on will add one particular element to a game, such as a new weapon in a shooting game, a new unit or map in a strategy game, a new vehicle or track in a racing game, items in a game like Minecraft or Terraria, or additional contents in simulation games (such as new pilotable airplanes, e.g., the Airbus A330 or Boeing 787 Dreamliner). An example of a mod that adds functionality to augment or enhance a players experience is ComputerCraft; a Minecraft mod that adds programmable computers and robots to allow the player to automate tasks in-game. This can be accomplished without changing any of the original game's existing content. Many games are flexible and allow this, however that is not always the case. Some add-ons occasionally have to replace in-game content, due to the nature of a peculiar game engine. It may be the case, for example, that in a game which does not give a player the option to choose their character, modders wishing to add another player model will simply have to overwrite the old one. A famous example of this type of mod can be found for the Grand Theft Auto series wherein modders may use downloadable tools to replace content (such as models) in the game's directory. The Left 4 Dead series can also be modded with individual add-ons which are stored in a .VPK format, so that a player may choose to activate a given mod or not.

Unofficial patch
An unofficial patch can be a mod of an existing game that fixes bugs not fixed by an official patch or that unlocks content present in the released game's files but is inaccessible in official gameplay. Such patches are usually created by members of the game's fan base when the original developer is unwilling or unable to supply the functionality officially. Jazz Jackrabbit 2 has an unofficial patch which adds and fixes many of its features. One effect of this type of mod is that hidden or partially deleted content can be revealed. An example is the Hot Coffee mod for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which unlocks a sexually explicit minigame. The ESRB changed the rating of GTA:SA from Mature (M) to Adults Only (AO). In the fourth quarter of 2005, Rockstar released a "clean" version of the game with the "Hot Coffee" scenes removed (Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 1.01), allowing the rating of the game to be reverted to its original Mature rating. In May 2006, a similar event occurred with Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

Art mod
An art mod is a mod that is created for artistic effect. Art mods are most frequently associated with video game art. However, modified games that retain their playability and are subject to more extensive mods (i.e. closer to total conversions) may also be classified as art games. Art mods are usually designed to subvert the original game experience. One example is the Velvet-Strike mod for Counter Strike in which the players spray-paint anti-violence messages in multiplayer games as a form of performance art. Another example is Robert Nideffer's Tomb Raider I and II patches which were designed to subvert the unofficial Nude Raider patch of the late 1990s by altering Lara Croft's sexual orientation. The origins of the art mod can be traced to the classic 1983 mod Castle Smurfenstein (a humorous subversion of Castle Wolfenstein which replaces the Nazi guards with Smurfs). The very first art mod, however, is generally considered to be Iimura Takahiko's 1993 AIUEOUNN Six Features (a modification of Sony's "System G").

Support continuation by mod
After EA lost its license with Major League Baseball and ended support for MVP Baseball 2005, the game's modding community has continued to support it by releasing updated roster lists and graphics every year, along with creating alternative baseball leagues (e.g. MVP Caribe, a total conversion) in the game.

IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover, released in 2011, received mixed reviews due to bugs and other issues. Modders fixed the game over time and received source code access, which led to an official re-release under the name IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover BLITZ Edition.

Following the closure of Ion Storm the source code to Daikatana was released to a select group of modders by John Romero, leading the version 1.3 patch, which also ported the game to MacOS, Linux and FreeBSD.

User interface mod
A user interface mod changes parts of how players interact with the game, and commonly, mods to the UI reveal information that the player or modder believes is helpful in playing the game.

Mod packs
Mod packs are groups of mods put into one package for download, often with an auto-installer. A mod pack's purpose is to make it easier for the player to install and manage multiple mods. Mod packs may be created with the purpose of making the original game more accessible to new players or to make the game harder for veterans to enjoy.

title: Video game modding


text:
Talk:Lark

Untitled
Someone who knows the proper way to resolve this needs to address the fact that

1. the entry under "parsec" which mentions the XML-Syntax-Analyzer "Lark" points to this page.

2. the link for XML-Syntax-Analyzer on this page points to "parsec," which is completely wrong.

Collective nouns
I removed the collective nouns from Raven and Lark for two reasons.

Firstly, even if correct, they do not apply to 'all Ravens and Larks, just Common Raven and Skylark. Secondly, these are made-up Victorian names that only appear on lists of collective nouns. As a birder of many years experience I have never heard either of these nouns actually used.

jimfbleak 05:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Assessment
This could use work. The insects mentioned in the diet, were does it find them? Like in the foliage of trees, or bushes, or on tree branches, or in flight? Is it the same foraging method for all larks? Just out of curiosity. Cynops 23:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC) A group of larks is called an exaltation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.25.184 (talk) 12:57, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Larks' tongues
Was this a real dish, or just an expression like angels on the head of a pin? It must have taken an awful lot of them to produce anything worth eating. And is it true that Mitterand requested them as his last meal? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I strongly suspect that they are mere legend: I will try to find a reference. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 23:30, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

life span of the lark
usually 2 to 3 years —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.113.189.147 (talk) 20:27, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

New phylogeny of Alaudidae
A new phylogeny of Alaudidae has been published:

I think a phylogenetic tree could be added to the article. I plan to do so when I have time, but thought I'd post the article for others to see. —  Jts1882 | talk 09:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for posting the article here. With any molecular phylogenetic study I have great difficulty in judging the quality of the data and the uncertainty in the results. It appears that just relying on mitochondrial DNA can be misleading. Recently, reliable results have been obtained by sequence capture using thousands of UCEs from fresh samples. Data from toepads is often problematic as the DNA is severely degraded. The current paper mixes several different types of sequence data. I don't understand enough to follow the procedures used - even with Figure 1.

 * The authors propose many changes including splitting Mirafra into four genera (with one new genus). We'll have to wait to see how many of these proposals are adopted by the IOC (and the Working Group Avian Checklists (WGAC)). - Aa77zz (talk) 13:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lark


text:
William Rushton

William Rushton may refer to:

 * W. A. H. Rushton (1901–1980), British physiologist
 * Willie Rushton (1937–1996), British comedian

title: William Rushton


text:
Talk:Francis Wheen

Spelling inconsistency
Since it said "Francis" in the article but "Frances" in the title, and since it says "he" rather than "she", I moved this to "Francis Wheen". Did I get it right? Michael Hardy 21:49, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've seen both used. I'll do a proper check. Secretlondon 22:56, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)
 * You are correct. Secretlondon 22:57, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)
 * Note: Yes, it's spelt Francis! By the way, as his son, Bertie, I know he gets annoyed when Frances is used... XD — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.33.54 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 7 January 2008

Complaint over the Guardian Chomsky retraction
This passage is also reproduced in the Aaronovitch and Kamm articles. While acknowledging that the letter was doubtless 'collectively' written, shouldn't the resume be on one page alone? Philip Cross 22:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Falkender libel
Wheen's irritation was reported in Private Eye at the time, if anyone has access to a hoard of copies. Philip Cross 18:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms
The Private Eye column in question was (as most of their columns are) anonymous, so it is not really much of a criticism. Does anyone have any better ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.6.171 (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Criticisms
I've deleted the criticism section because it only links to blogs, which don't seem like very good sources. Also, the criticisms themselves stem from Wheen's writing for 'Private Eye', but because most of the articles therein are anonymous, there is no way of verifying his authorship. This is not to say that there shouldn't be criticisms of Wheen, but they have to be relevant, properly sourced ones. ThinWhiteDuke79

The source for Wheen writing this article is Private Eye itself. A letter in the magazine acknowledged that Wheen was the author of the section attacking Hari, and explicitly criticised him for not declaring his huge conflict of interest. All the blog comments stem from that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.41.39 (talk) 17:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that those 2 links do not verify anything written in the 'criticisms' section, not the claim (which is unmentioned in either Guardian or Kamm link) or the quote referenced, so i've deleted it again. Either it has to be substantially reworded to claim something other than it is or it has to be substantiated and sourced properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.159.57 (talk) 23:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, these two links do not verify any of the criticisms they are supposed to provide evidence of. Both refer to criticisms of PRIVATE EYE for their criticism of Johann Hari, but the speculation that this criticism might relate to Francis Wheen is just that: speculation. These criticisms cannot be included until (1) rendered relevant and (2) properly verified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.6.164 (talk) 22:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Given the above, please provide a response before reinserting 'criticisms'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.227.121 (talk) 23:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

In need of better references to support criticisms section
I have removed the following section:

"==Criticisms== Wheen has been dubbed "the Rottweiller of Decency" for his alleged habit of attacking people who displease the so-called 'decent' left associated with the Euston Manifesto. He was accused of hypocrisy when in Private Eye he vehemently attacked a review by Johann Hari of the pro-war book 'What's Left' by Nick Cohen, impugning Hari's journalistic standards, without declaring that he is a close personal friend of Cohen's and thanked at length in the book under discussion. Critics charged that this is the sort of unethical behaviour that Wheen condemns so often in others. A letter in Private Eye later argued that the magazine, via Wheen's writings, "attacks honest journalists just because they criticise you and your mates.""

Whilst it seems a reasonable and rounded statement in many ways, a blog is not a reliable source. Until a reliable source can be found (per WP:RS) this should probably stay on the talk page...

What is the Wikipedia policy on citing Private Eye as a source? Richard Hock (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

These are well-sourced criticisms. This isn't meant to be a hagiography, surely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.160.141 (talk) 21:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

 * No, but blogs are not acceptable sources according to WP policy, and neither is Private Eye in fact. Philip Cross (talk) 21:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Political views
For the benefit of readers who are not intimately familiar with British writers' political persuasions and manifestos, the "Political views" section should state forthrightly what Wheen's political views actually are, rather than making obscure oblique references. Surely someone who has been commenting on public affairs for that long has left behind some reliable-source documentation of what his views actually are. 121a0012 (talk) 23:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Charles Napier trial
Wheen has been featured in news stories surrounding the Charles Napier criminal case. Not sure the best way to include this in the article. Wheen has waived his right of anonymity, and gone on record as a victim of Napier, but as Napier pleaded guilty and there was not a full trial, I don't think Wheen he has formally given evidence in any way. How should this be phrased? (There is a short interview on the BBC news article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30591158)  Indisciplined (talk) 20:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

 * If you are of a cautious disposition then you should consult a libel slash privacy lawyer who will take a deep breath, do nothing for some weeks, then tell you not to go there, and send you an eye wateringly large bill (almost certainly without the further courtesy of another wait of some weeks).  Otherwise, I would have thought that a (n appropriately succinct, please) sentence beginning along the lines, "Wheen has supplied (detailed and) personal endorsement of allegations that ....", and covering the thing with source notes accessing published sources, might do the job.   Then again .... I don't doubt that the nice folks at Private Eye could counsel you on the basis of larger quantities of relevant experience than the rest of us can muster.  The allegations in question might even already have appeared on one of those pages near the back of The Eye that at my stage of life I find embarrassingly soporific.   Happy Christmas Charles01 (talk) 08:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Francis Wheen


text:
Talk:Hymn

The Hymn article
I see this article starts again with the original ambiguous definition: "A hymn is a type of song...." Note the ambiguity for a lay person. A song is music. The definition quotes usage from another era, when "song" was defined as a text to be sung. So I must yield, give up, and leave you all to do your thing as you see fit. Your definition leads to an incorrect interpretation. 24.7.251.127 (talk) 17:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)hymnlover 6-19-10

There is nothing ambiguous about that phrase. Everyone knows a hymn is a song. What incorrect interpretation is gathered from this? I'm pretty sure Pop songs are called songs. 𝕋𝕙𝕖ℙ𝕝𝕒𝕟𝕖𝕥𝕒𝕣𝕚𝕒𝕟 (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

See also Chorale
see also Chorale seems the best way to cope with it. seglea 21:49, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is Johann Gerhardt aka 'Paul'?
That's how he's listed in my hymnal. Is this an alias or an error? Left it as is because I don't know. Quill 07:10, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Isaac Watts
The article presently has a line to the effect that "early English hymnists such as Isaac Watts tended to paraphrase Psalms, while later writers took more liberties". True enough, except that I had read (CyberHymnal, linked in article, IIRC) that Watts wrote the first English hymn which wasn't a paraphrase of Scripture. Thus, the problem is that it's so nearly true that it's a shame to lose the sentence, but it's not true enough to stay as is.

Anyone got any bright ideas? Wooster 17:40, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I take your point, although I think the word 'tended' mitigates this somewhat. It's not that what is written is 'nearly' true; it is true, it just doesn't give Watts enough credit.  Wait a sec; one bright idea coming up....See what you think.  Quill 00:43, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Love it. I will slip the word direct in "a paraphrase", just to make doubly sure that we clarify that Watts' hymns drew on Scripture, but not all of them were paraphrases.  After all, it's almost a matter of definition that (Christian) hymns draw on Biblical truth for their inspiration and material, but aren't necessarily paraphrases.  Wooster 14:54, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, I don't know about that last--I've heard some pretty inane hymns in my time ;)  Cheers  Quill 22:15, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * If we don't have one yet, we do need an article about the several metrical psalters. Theodore Beza and Clement Marot made an excellent one in French, which was so good that their psalms still being sung.  Sternhold and Hopkins, whom you've justly never heard of, made an absolute dog's breakfast of the English one, so theirs is almost entirely forgotten; the last remnant is the hymn tune Old 100th.  Later improvers like Nahum Tate tried to do better, but by then the moment had passed, and as a result English congregations sing hymns with original lyrics.  Smerdis of Tlön 15:30, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Of the Father's Love Begotten
I looked up the abovenamed hymn in my hymnal ("We Celebrate", World Library Publications), where it is said to date from the 11th century. Current article text puts it in the 13th. A minor detail, to be sure, and I have no evidence other than the one hymnal (the other hymnal I have doesn't include that hymn). Any ideas? (Blahedo 21:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC))
 * Good catch. The Hymnal, 1982 (Episcopal) also dates the music, Divinum Mysterium, from the 11th Century.  I'm changing it.  Quill 22:52, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

oh u make me want to shout out the father's love begotten to i wish u joy go to norad tracking santa it's a great site to track santa on cristmas

Monotheist bias?
I'm asking first, as such things can raise hackles, but shouldn't the word "God" in the opening sentence be lowercased and directed to deity? --Thesquire 04:27, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * No. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodoxy?
The current article seems to assume a Catholic context (and the Protestant outgrowth of that tradition). There are also quite a few Eastern Orthodox hymns, and a rich tradition developed during the same time period (Byzantine Empire / Middle Ages). I don't know enough details about the history or musicology to add anything useful, but hopefully someone does... --Delirium 06:16, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know enough to help, but I know you're right. And even in the Western tradition, the absence of any mention of e.g. Ambrose is a major lacuna. --Haruo 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The Wesleys often composed hymns while riding between preachments on horseback ???????
Anybody with more knowledge want to comment on or delete this sentence?

The reason I ask, is that the anonymous user who added it was found to be vandalising other sites...User:Camillus McElhinney

 * The sentence seems odd and is unsourced. I'll delete it; if a source is found, a user may restore it.  KHM03 12:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Because the hymn is a poem (and not the music to sing it to), the Wesleys (Charles, mainly) could ride along and think through the words of his new hymn. I dare say he could even get his pad of paper out and jot it down....  User:hymnlover  —Preceding undated comment added 20:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC).

List of Hymns?
Should there be articles for List of (denomination) hymns or commonly used hymn books/collections?

 * (I may be too late answering this; the above comment is undated.) The hymn-book seems to exist: List of hymnals.  There is also a 'Category:Hymnals'.  The proposed 'List of (denomination) hymns' sound like one of those things that would grow and grow and...  and the more it grew, I suspect the less value it would have. Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

"Hymn" in Aramaic
Jesus spoke to the masses in Aramaic, as nearly all Biblical scholars agree. Some discussion has been generated on this regarding hymn and the Aramaic word for faith. Factually, the first four letters of the word for faith in Aramaic are phonetically h-y-m-n. Reference and citation: the last word in Matthew 6:30 of the Peshitta --66.69.219.9 17:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I am appalled at your poor grasp of comparative linguistics. The Greek word υμνος means a 'song of praise'; the Aramaic word ܗܝܡܢܘܬܐ means 'faith'. The Aramaic root ܐܡܢ is the source of the latter word. No word derived from that root in any variety of Aramaic means 'song of praise', and the Greek word has a sufficiently lengthy history within that language (as demonstrated by the citations in Liddell-Scott that I gave you) that it is not considered a borrowed word. THe last word of Mt6.30 in the Peshitta is ܗܝܡܢܘܬܐ and it means 'faith': it is not supporting evidence for this word meaning 'hymn'. Would you so easily link the Aramaic word for 'son' and the English word for a place for a drink just because they are both pronounced 'bar'? I hope you wouldn't, but that has the same strength as your argument. Now, show me documentary evidence for the use of an Aramaic word of the root ܐܡܢ to mean 'song of praise', or give up on this one. — Gareth Hughes 17:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * And I am appalled that someone so clearly belligerent, petulant and puerile can possibly serve as an Administrator. Being so emotional, you cannot reason well...that's just a biological fact.  So, please, calm yourself.  And I say again...slowly, as you clearly do not process information well:  phonetically, the first four letters in the Aramaic for faith are h-y-m-n.  Reference and citation:  the last word in Matthew 6:30 of the Peshitta. --66.69.219.9 17:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Part of the job of an admin is to deal with addition of spurious information in articles. As an Aramaic linguist, I am in good position to tell what good Aramaic scholarship is — this isn't it. You have thrown together two different words in different languages and scripts that sound alike and said they are related. I have proven to you that is not true by reference to Greek and Aramaic dictionaries (Liddell-Scott, Davidson and Payne-Smith). You have thrown at me a Bible verse that says that the Aramaic word for 'faith' means 'faith', and makes no reference to hymns. The Aramaic word is spelled he-yudh-mim-nun-waw-taw-alaph, the Greek word is spelled upsilon-mu-nu-omicron-sigma — they might sound a little alike but there is no evidence anywhere that they are related. — Gareth Hughes 17:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I don't genuflect quickly for self-described experts. And I am using the Aramaic Peshitta, a source document, not a derived-source document such as a dictionary, for my discussion.  The first four letters in the Aramaic language for faith are Hē-Yōdh-Mīm-Nūn ... i.e., phonetically "h-y-m-n". --66.69.219.9 17:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * To summarise, this user is attempting to convince us that the Aramaic word ܗܝܡܢܘܬܐ haimānuthā, which means 'faith' and does appear as the last word of Mt6.30 (which only proves that it is te Aramaic word for 'faith'), is etymologically linked to the Greek word υμνος hymnos, meaning 'song of praise' or 'hymn'. The user's reasoning for this is that both are spelled (if transliterated into out alphabet if you please) 'h-y-m-n...'. Now, anyone with a knowledge of comparative linguistics would see that this is nothing other than a coincidence (and not a very good one) until the evidence supporting a link between the Greek and Aramaic words can be found. You can see an online entry for the Greek word in Liddell-Scott, which shows a lengthy purely Greek history to the word. Although I cannot point you to online sources, I can refer to copies of Davidson's and Payne-Smith's Aramaic dictionaries from my own bookshelf that show the clear derivision of the Aramaic word from the triliteral root 'MN. The Greek sources never relate the Greek word to meanings of 'faith' or derivision from Aramaic, and the Aramaic sources show that word is never used to mean anything like 'song praise' and do not mention it being borrowed into Greek or vice versa. This is clear evidence that there is no connexion between these two words. When asked for evidence, the user has only repeated that the last word of Mt6.30 supports this (how?) and the two are spelled the same way (in the Latin alphabet though). Please reject this amateurish speculation thoroughly. — Gareth Hughes 21:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

To summarize, this abusive administrator has refused my numerous requests that he please get another admin involved in this fairly straightforward discussion. There are multiple instances of what I'm referring to as being factual in the Aramaic Peshitta, but for reasons that at the moment would only be speculation on my part this administrator both neither takes the evidence into account nor gets someone more emotionally calm to help adjudicate the matter. It's all very sad. --66.69.219.9 22:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * It is not my job to get another admin involved. If you want it, ask for one. As for my emotional state, it is purely the result of your stubbornness in presenting empty speculation as fact. — Gareth Hughes 22:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, I am quoting from source documents...there is no speculation. So please refrain from such pejoratives, as your stance is clearly subjective, not objective. --66.69.219.9 22:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Etymology
My etymological dictionary suggests υμεν hymen as a possibly related word. This is also conjected by the Online Etymological Dictionary. Check for an Indo-European etymology of hymen, with a reconstructed root *syū-, which makes it related to सूत्र sūtra. How nice. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 22:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Having read the text more carefully, I must admit that the second website I mentioned does not support the suggestion that hymnos is a cognate of hymen. However I still find the idea that it comes from Aramaic very hard to imagine. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Seriously, why? Aramaic substantially pre-dates Latin. --66.69.219.9 22:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Last comment by 66.69.219.9 doesn't make sense. The etymologies, of course, do not mention Aramaic. The link is more in the direction of hymen and that it is a pure IE word. — Gareth Hughes 22:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Last comment by uninvited guest doesn't make sense, as he is referring to Greek, and I am citing Aramaic. --66.69.219.9 22:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

 I have additional proof for you -- there are only 3 words in the entire Aramaic New Testament in which the text string "h-y-m-n" appears: "faith", "belief" and..."hymnalist." The Aramaic word for "hymnalist" in the Greek is "Eunuch" (which also makes a great deal more sense of Matthew 19:12). You can read the Peshitta and see for yourself.

So...please restore the Hymn article per these discussions. I'll otherwise do so tomorrow. Sleep well. --66.69.219.9 02:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots by Calvert Watkins does not suggest a connection between hymn and hymen (and it's difficult to see what semantic connection there could be between a word for "song" and word for "thin skin, membrane"). Rather, while hymen and sutra are both from *syū- "to sew" (and thus related to both sew and suture), Watkins suggests hymn is from the Proto-Indo-European stem *sh2em- "to sing" and is related to Hittite ishamai "he sings" and Sanskrit sāman "hymn, song". Neither word is even remotely connected to Aramaic. User:Angr 07:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Ḥ M N The root {ḥ-m-n} (Ar. ح م ن) exists in Arabic. It refers to a type of folk poetry (for singing) in Southern regions of the Arabian Peninsula (present-day the Republic of Yemen) known as Ḥumaynī Poetry الشعر الحُميني. It is possible that this type of poetry and singing - among other things - spread to Andalucia (also known as Al-Andalus) during the Arab conquest of Spain. But if historical records refer to the existence of the term in Europe before the Arab conquest, then it is possible that this Semitic word was introduced there through other (possibly Mediterranean) contacts. (For the latter assumption see: http://www.yewriters.org/hikmah24121.html).9abdulla 18:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Now I can quote from that article: ويشير إلى التوافق بين لفظة الحميني ولفظة "هيمن" بالإنجليزية. ويلاحظ ومعه كل الحق أن التحوير غالباً ما يرافق النقل من لغة لأخرى .ويستطرد للربط بين اليونان والحضارة المعينية والحرف الفينيقي المحور عن خط المسند الحميري.

"…The fact that there is a phonetic similarity between HYMN and the Arabic word can be explained in the light of the transfer of words from one language to another. It is possible that the term was taken from the Ma'inian to Phoenician to Greek through the Himyarite orthography". 9abdulla

Well-known hymnists and hymns
I separated out the list of well-known hymnists and hymns from "The development of Christian hymnody" in the outline, though it does leave the following paragraph about four-part harmony and organ accompaniments glaringly dangling.

I also removed Arthur Sullivan from the list of well-known hymnists, because his contributions were in the composition of hymn tunes (e.g. St. Gertrude, to which "Onward, Christian soldiers" is sung) rather than in the writing of hymn texts (lyrics), whereas all the other hymnists in the list wrote the lyrics of the hymns listed after them. --Haruo 10:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Re: first paragraph ("...following paragraph about four-part harmony and organ accompaniments glaringly dangling"): Higher up the article is a subsection on accompaniment. Perhaps what could be done is a general "Performance" section: the  different ways in which different people have "performed" (or "used" or "sung" or ...) hymns at different times.  Its starting point might simply be a merger of the current "accompaniment" subsection and that dangling paragraph. Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Do we need this section at all? If a list of hymns and hymnwriters is deemed important, I suggest that should be a separate "List of..." article; there seems plentiful precedent for this sort of separation within Wikipedia. I propose removing it soon.  (Two weeks? A month?) Feline Hymnic (talk) 12:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

There being no objections, I've removed that list. (A "List of ..." article can always be created by if there is demand and/or enthusiasm.) Feline Hymnic (talk) 23:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Hymn audio samples
No offense, but the pipe organ audio samples should be removed, and the performer should practice the hymns to perfection and do a few more takes. There's a rather major blunder right at the beginning of "Rock of Ages." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.36.152 (talk) 03:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Also, the samples are of hymns that have their own articles, where they would more appropriately belong. Feline Hymnic (talk) 23:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Hymn meters
The hymn meters section looks somewhat peculiar. Most hymnbooks (at least in the UK) seem to use straightforward number-based meters (e.g. 10.10.10.10) mostly. Just a few appear in letter-form: CM, DCM (or CMD), LM and SM. I've never seen any of the other stated letter forms (PM, HM, etc.) nor the "8s.7s" variety in hymnbooks.

The section also lacks examples.

I would suggest that it could do with a significant re-working, with numeric form taking precedence, and using the lettered form for the common cases (for instance CM: yes, PM: no). Also that examples should be provided.

Is that idea OK? Feline Hymnic (talk) 23:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Assuming quietness to be assent, I have begun. In fact, I propose going a stage further and removing the lesser stated forms (PM, HM, etc.) Any reason not to do so? Feline Hymnic (talk) 12:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been on Wikipedia much over the past couple of years. Noticing the age of this edit, and now removal to a different page, my comments are probably irrelevant. I agree that "standard" denominational hymnals seem to prefer the straightforward number-based meters here in the US as well. But a number of traditions -- Sacred Harp, words-only hymn books of Primitive Baptists, Brethren, et al. -- continue to use the older letter form. The index to the 1991 Sacred Harp gives some examples. http://fasola.org/indexes/1991/?v=meter - Rlvaughn (talk) 06:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Interesting point. Although I know the term 'Sacred Harp' I am unfamiliar with its details. Perhaps you should re-open this discussion at Talk:Meter (hymn), mentioning the Sacred Harp connection, and (for example) proposing a section or subsection (in Meter (hymn)) about these other terms and their relation to Sacred Harp. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

CM means common meter, which is 8686. LM is long meter, which is 8888. The "D" stands for 'Double"; the English start with the D (DCM) and the Americans end with it  (CMD).  SM is short meter 6686.  PM stands for "Peculiar meter"  which indicates some sort of quirk in the regular count of syllables.   Meters with just numbers are similar but not the same syllable counts as those with the letter indications.  Look at the Meter Index in a hymnal; they're all listed there (so you can switch tunes for your congregation next Sunday....).  Detail:  the periods within a meter indication stand for the rhyme scheme, although some hymnals just simplify that by putting periods between all of the numbers.  hymnlover 12-8-2009

Continuing: When you look at a meter index you will find that the CM, LM, etc., appear in the logical sequence, and list their syllable count at their entry; and they fit in the sequence with the numbered meters in the same index. There's no "title" for the 8-7s and 10-s etc., like there is for 8686 (CM), etc. The point is that CM, SM, LM, etc., indicate a syllable count. I recall that Watts and other early hymn writers used these meters most of the time (maybe that's behind the "Common" of Common Meter). You can see that the shorter meters are at the beginning of indexes. Numbered meters cannot "take precedence" without defeating the normal indexing process. I'm responding to such an old comment, though, that this must have been resolved already. I recall that the Wikipedia article titled "Meters" has it "right." And by the way, I've never seen an HM indication of a meter; where was that found? hymnlover 12-9-2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hymnlover (talk • contribs) 04:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hymns? Christian hymns?
Possible declaration of interest: I write this from a Christian perspective. But I hope I am following WP:NPOV principles.

The title of the article as it currently stands is 'Hymn'. Almost the entirety of its content is in a section called the 'Christian tradition'. And because it is in a section, we have lost one potential layer of subsectioning. The subsequent sections are also Christian. The only significant non-Christian parts are two (out of four) paragraphs in the opening section.

To do justice all round, might it be worth trying to separate this into two distinct articles:
 * 1) the concept of hymn, not necessarily Christian; its starting point would paragraphs 1 and 4 of the opening of the current article;
 * 2) Christian hymns; its starting point would be the bulk of the existing article except for those in the previous point.

(Also, in that opening section the paragraph content about hymn tunes is unnecessary because that topic already has its own hymn tune article. But that's a digression at present.)

Just a thought... Feline Hymnic (talk) 22:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Two months having elapsed, I have begun to do this by moving the Christian-specific parts from the general introduction into the "Christian tradition" (and doing some associated tidying). Feline Hymnic (talk) 00:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Perhaps the information which has more to do with 'gospel songs' should be exported to a new and separate, but cross-linked, article on 'gospel songs.' Or maybe the 'Hymns' article should be renamed 'Religious music' and then sectioned and subsectioned according to religion and genre. Richard David Ramsey 01:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)"

Too many external links?
It seems to me that there are about twenty too many links to other hymn sites. Are these sites trying to use Wikipedia to boost hits or did these links accumulate over time when everyone added their personal favorite hymn site? This isn't an urgent issue, but probably one that should be addressed sometime soon. Hyphessobrycon (talk) 03:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed. What guiding principles might be reasonable to apply? Feline Hymnic (talk) 00:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Danish hymns online
Just to inform you that the Danish book of hymns is now online. All in Danish, but the melodies of the hyms can be heard either from organ or piano.

Den Danske Salmebog Online. http://www.dendanskesalmebogonline.dk/

With kind regards, Holger Terp editor The Danish peace academy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.91.185.61 (talk) 10:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

 * The place to mention it would probably be in the Danish wikipedia. Hope that helps. Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

recent additions and reversions
A new editor has recently added a considerable quantity of material. With reluctance, I have had to revert most of it, because: it was uncited and unsourced; it was US-centric; it was written like a tutorial rather than an encyclopaedia. It had also disrupted the flow of the original: the original had been careful to distinguish the general use of the term hymn from the Christian use of the term. I have preserved what I can: a cited definition; although I have moved it to a more appropriate location within the article.

I realise that my reversion of this might act as a discouragement to the new editor. I don't intend it to be thus; indeed, I would encourage their continued involvement, please! But we do need to keep this article structured and encyclopedic. Feline Hymnic (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

response to recent additions and reversions
Dear friend (Feline Hymnic?):

It may be that talking via this avenue will help set up clarification about the definition of the word, "Hymn." It's quite possible you are clear, but I know some are not. Can we discuss it here?

The Internet Oxford Compact Dictionary definition says: song noun 1 a poem or other set of words set to music. 2 singing or vocal music. 3 the musical phrases uttered by some birds, whates, and insects. 4 A poem, especially one in rhymed stanzas.

The American Heritage Dictionary definition (Houghton Mifflin copyright 1969) says: song n. 1. A brief musical composition written or adapted for singing. 2. The act or art of singing. 3. A melodious utterance, such as a bird call. 4. a. Poetry; verse. b. A lyric poem or ballad. (The third edition of the above, copyright 1994, is largely the same.)

My daughter emails me the following two definitions:

Webster's (copyright 2004) says: That which is sung; a lyrical poem adapted to vocal music; poetical composition.

McGraw-Hill Children's Dictionary (copyright 2003) says: A short musical composition for singing; the musical sounds made by certain animals.

A problem can arise when someone looks at a hymnal which presents a text with a tune, and the definition of "Hymn" includes a "song." It's too easy for someone to think that the music is the "hymn" and the text is "lyrics" (see the Wikipedia discussion at Charles Wesley).

No matter how "song" is defined, why not differentiate the two parts of what's on the hymnal page, which will clarify that a hymn is not a musical composition; a hymn is "a poem / set of words which is set to music / a hymn tune"?

What do you think?

re encyclopedic tone: you're right about that, I am sure. Does all Wikipedia have to be encyclopedic? I haven't referenced many articles (yet).

hymnlover 1-4-10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hymnlover (talk • contribs) 05:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Hymnographer
Hymnographer currently redirects here but isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. Can we maybe include a definition somewhere? Or would a soft redirect to Wiktionary be preferable? – Arms & Hearts (talk) 22:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Lutheran hymn
I would like to see a section with that title, not just "Western Church" (which begins with "later", so makes a reader who arrives there scroll up for context). It would not really fit in the Music section, because it also concerns texts, which were metric from the Reformation. Compare Lutheran hymnody. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

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"Hymnographer" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Hymnographer. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 23 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Aza24 (talk) 05:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Christian music
I see this article has been listed as been of interest to "WikiProject Christian music", but I was rather surprised to see this is only listed as "Mid-importance" to this WikiProject. I would have thought it would be of "Top-importance" to this WikiProject. Rollo August (talk) 22:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Per the guidelines "mid" seems to be the appropriate level. It isn't exactly a fundamental topic - more something anybody mildly familiar with the subject would know, but not a core issue. But instead of worrying over such formalities, the far better thing to do is to find some sources and improve the article, as usual. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:28, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Lined-out hymnody
Once I can pull some source material, I'd like to add a couple of sentences about the lined-out hymnody of the Southern Appalachians partlarly in a denomination called the Old Regular Baptists if y'all think that's ok. The onlyplaces I know of where it's still used is here and in some of the Scottish Isles. IIRC, Jeff Todd Titon said it was the oldest, still in continuous use, vocal hymnody in the world. TrilliumLady (talk) 06:30, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Possible non primary source for early Christian hymn
The letter of Pliny the Younger to Trajan on Christians outlines the singing of hymns to "Christ as a god." 108.21.230.141 (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hymn