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Forensic anthropology

Forensic anthropology is the application of the anatomical science of anthropology and its various subfields, including forensic archaeology and forensic taphonomy, in a legal setting. A forensic anthropologist can assist in the identification of deceased individuals whose remains are decomposed, burned, mutilated or otherwise unrecognizable, as might happen in a plane crash. Forensic anthropologists are also instrumental in the investigation and documentation of genocide and mass graves. Along with forensic pathologists, forensic dentists, and homicide investigators, forensic anthropologists commonly testify in court as expert witnesses. Using physical markers present on a skeleton, a forensic anthropologist can potentially determine a person's age, sex, stature, and race. In addition to identifying physical characteristics of the individual, forensic anthropologists can use skeletal abnormalities to potentially determine cause of death, past trauma such as broken bones or medical procedures, as well as diseases such as bone cancer.

The methods used to identify a person from a skeleton relies on the past contributions of various anthropologists and the study of human skeletal differences. Through the collection of thousands of specimens and the analysis of differences within a population, estimations can be made based on physical characteristics. Through these, a set of remains can potentially be identified. The field of forensic anthropology grew during the twentieth century into a fully recognized forensic specialty involving trained anthropologists as well as numerous research institutions gathering data on decomposition and the effects it can have on the skeleton.

Modern uses
Today, forensic anthropology is a well-established discipline within the forensic field. Anthropologists are called upon to investigate remains and to help identify individuals from bones when other physical characteristics that could be used to identify a body no longer exist. Forensic anthropologists work in conjunction with forensic pathologists to identify remains based on their skeletal characteristics. If the victim is not found for a lengthy period or has been eaten by scavengers, flesh markers used for identification would be destroyed, making normal identification difficult if not impossible. Forensic anthropologists can provide physical characteristics of the person to input into missing person databases such as that of the National Crime Information Center in the US or INTERPOL's yellow notice database.

In addition to these duties, forensic anthropologists often assist in the investigation of war crimes and mass fatality investigations. Anthropologists have been tasked with helping to identify victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, as well as plane crashes such as the Arrow Air Flight 1285 disaster and the USAir Flight 427 disaster where the flesh had been vaporized or so badly mangled that normal identification was impossible. Anthropologists have also helped identify victims of genocide in countries around the world, often long after the actual event. War crimes anthropologists have helped investigate include the Rwandan genocide and the Srebrenica Genocide. Organizations such as the Forensic Anthropology Society of Europe, the British Association for Forensic Anthropology, and the American Society of Forensic Anthropologists continue to provide guidelines for the improvement of forensic anthropology and the development of standards within the discipline.

With hundreds missing and bodies burnt beyond recognition by Hamas militants during its October 7 attack of Israel, Israeli authorities assembled recovery teams that included archaeologists from the Israel Antiquities Authority. The team used their specialized skills in excavating and identifying fragmentary ancient remains to sift through ash and rubble for bone fragments overlooked by other forensic teams. Archeologists systematically searched rooms, dividing them into grids and carefully extracting bone shards. At one house, the archeology team found a bloodstain under ash that they determined was the outline of a body, later identified through DNA analysis.

Early history
The use of anthropology in the forensic investigation of remains grew out of the recognition of anthropology as a distinct scientific discipline and the growth of physical anthropology. The field of anthropology began in the United States and struggled to obtain recognition as a legitimate science during the early years of the twentieth century. Earnest Hooton pioneered the field of physical anthropology and became the first physical anthropologist to hold a full-time teaching position in the United States. He was an organizing committee member of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists along with its founder Aleš Hrdlička. Hooton's students created some of the first doctoral programs in physical anthropology during the early 20th century. In addition to physical anthropology, Hooton was a proponent of criminal anthropology. Now considered a pseudoscience, criminal anthropologists believed that phrenology and physiognomy could link a person's behavior to specific physical characteristics. The use of criminal anthropology to try to explain certain criminal behaviors arose out of the eugenics movement, popular at the time. It is because of these ideas that skeletal differences were measured in earnest eventually leading to the development of anthropometry and the Bertillon method of skeletal measurement by Alphonse Bertillon. The study of this information helped shape anthropologists' understanding of the human skeleton and the multiple skeletal differences that can occur.

Another prominent early anthropologist, Thomas Wingate Todd, was primarily responsible for the creation of the first large collection of human skeletons in 1912. In total, Todd acquired 3,300 human skulls and skeletons, 600 anthropoid skulls and skeletons, and 3,000 mammalian skulls and skeletons. Todd's contributions to the field of anthropology remain in use in the modern era and include various studies regarding suture closures on the skull and timing of teeth eruption in the mandible. Todd also developed age estimates based on physical characteristics of the pubic symphysis. Though the standards have been updated, these estimates are still used by forensic anthropologists to narrow down an age range of skeletonized remains. These early pioneers legitimized the field of anthropology, but it was not until the 1940s, with the help of Todd's student, Wilton M. Krogman, that forensic anthropology gained recognition as a legitimate subdiscipline.

The growth of forensic anthropology
During the 1940s, Krogman was the first anthropologist to actively publicize anthropologists' potential forensic value, going as far as placing advertisements in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin informing agencies of the ability of anthropologists to assist in the identification of skeletal remains. This period saw the first official use of anthropologists by federal agencies including the FBI. During the 1950s, the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps employed forensic anthropologists in the identification of war casualties during the Korean War. It was at this time that forensic anthropology officially began. The sudden influx of available skeletons for anthropologists to study, whose identities were eventually confirmed, allowed for the creation of more accurate formulas for the identification of sex, age, and stature based solely on skeletal characteristics. These formulas, developed in the 1940s and refined by war, are still in use by modern forensic anthropologists.

The professionalization of the field began soon after, during the 1950s and 1960s. This move coincided with the replacement of coroners with medical examiners in many locations around the country. It was during this time that the field of forensic anthropology gained recognition as a separate field within the American Academy of Forensic Sciences and the first forensic anthropology research facility and body farm was opened by William M. Bass. Public attention and interest in forensic anthropology began to increase around this time as forensic anthropologists started working on more high-profile cases. One of the major cases of the era involved anthropologist Charles Merbs who helped identify the victims murdered by Ed Gein.

Methods
One of the main tools forensic anthropologists use in the identification of remains is their knowledge of osteology and the differences that occur within the human skeleton. During an investigation, anthropologists are often tasked with helping to determinate an individual's sex, stature, age, and ancestry. To do this, anthropologists must be aware of how the human skeleton can differ between individuals.

Determination of sex
Depending on which bones are present, sex can be determined by looking for distinctive sexual dimorphisms. When available, the pelvis is extremely useful in the determination of sex and when properly examined can achieve sex determination with a great level of accuracy. The examination of the pubic arch and the location of the sacrum can help determine sex.

However, the pelvis is not always present, so forensic anthropologists must be aware of other areas on the skeleton that have distinct characteristics between sexes. The skull also contains multiple markers that can be used to determine sex. Specific markers on the skull include the temporal line, the eye sockets, the supraorbital ridge, as well as the nuchal lines, and the mastoid process. In general, male skulls tend to be larger and thicker than female skulls, and to have more pronounced ridges.

Forensic anthropologists need to take into account all available markers in the determination of sex due to the differences that can occur between individuals of the same sex. For example, a female may have a slightly more narrow than a normal pubic arch. It is for this reason that anthropologists usually classify sex as one of five possibilities: male, maybe male, indeterminate, maybe female, or female. In addition, forensic anthropologists are generally unable to make a sex determination unless the individual was an adult at the time of death. The sexual dimorphisms present in the skeleton begin to occur during puberty and are not fully pronounced until after sexual maturation.

Consequently, there is currently no reliable method of sex determination of juvenile remains from cranial or post-cranial skeletal elements since dimorphic traits only become apparent after puberty, and this represents a fundamental problem in archaeological and forensic investigations. However, teeth may assist in estimating sex since both sets of teeth are formed well before puberty. Sexual dimorphism has been observed in both deciduous and permanent dentition, although it is much less in deciduous teeth. On average, male teeth are slightly larger than female teeth, with the greatest difference observed in the canine teeth. Examination of internal dental tissues has also shown that male teeth consist of absolutely and proportionately greater quantities of dentine than females. Such differences in dental tissue proportions could also be useful in sex determination.

Determination of stature
The estimation of stature by anthropologists is based on a series of formulas that have been developed over time by the examination of multiple different skeletons from a multitude of different regions and backgrounds. Stature is given as a range of possible values, in centimeters, and typically computed by measuring the bones of the leg. The three bones that are used are the femur, the tibia, and the fibula. In addition to the leg bones, the bones of the arm, humerus, ulna, and radius can be used. The formulas that are used to determine stature rely on various information regarding the individual. Sex, ancestry, and age should be determined before attempting to ascertain height, if possible. This is due to the differences that occur between populations, sexes, and age groups. By knowing all the variables associated with height, a more accurate estimate can be made. For example, a male formula for stature estimation using the femur is $2.32 × femur length + 65.53 ± 3.94 cm$. A female of the same ancestry would use the formula, $2.47 × femur length + 54.10 ± 3.72 cm$. It is also important to note an individual's approximate age when determining stature. This is due to the shrinkage of the skeleton that naturally occurs as a person ages. After age 30, a person loses approximately one centimeter of their height every decade.

Determination of age
The determination of an individual's age by anthropologists depends on whether or not the individual was an adult or a child. The determination of the age of children, under the age of 21, is usually performed by examining the teeth. When teeth are not available, children can be aged based on which growth plates are sealed. The tibia plate seals around age 16 or 17 in girls and around 18 or 19 in boys. The clavicle is the last bone to complete growth and the plate is sealed around age 25. In addition, if a complete skeleton is available anthropologists can count the number of bones. While adults have 206 bones, the bones of a child have not yet fused resulting in a much higher number.

The aging of adult skeletons is not as straightforward as aging a child's skeleton as the skeleton changes little once adulthood is reached. One possible way to estimate the age of an adult skeleton is to look at bone osteons under a microscope. New osteons are constantly formed by bone marrow even after the bones stop growing. Younger adults have fewer and larger osteons while older adults have smaller and more osteon fragments. Another potential method for determining the age of an adult skeleton is to look for arthritis indicators on the bones. Arthritis will cause noticeable rounding of the bones. The degree of rounding from arthritis coupled with the size and number of osteons can help an anthropologist narrow down a potential age range for the individual.

Age estimation of living individuals
Age estimation of living individuals is carried out by estimating the biological age when the chronological age of the individual is unknown or uncertain because of the lack of valid identity documents. It is used to confirm if an individual has reached a specific age threshold in cases of criminal liability, asylum seekers and unaccompanied children, human trafficking, adoption, and competitive sports. Guidelines by the Study Group on Forensic Age Diagnostics (Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Forensische Altersdiagnostik, AGFAD), propose that a three-step procedure should be followed for the age estimation: the first step is a physical examination; the second step include the assessment of the hand/wrist development using plain radiographs; the third step is a dental assessment. One of the most used methodologies for the estimation of age from the development of the hand and wrist is the Greulich and Pyle Atlas, whilst to assess dental development the most common method used so far is the 8-teeth technique developed by Demirjian et al.. Where the estimated age of the individual might be above 18 years of age, it is possible to use the development of the medial end of the clavicle. Traditionally, those undertaking age estimation in the living, adopt imaging techniques such as plain radiographies and CT scans to carry out the age estimation, however, lately, due to ethical issues surrounding the use of ionising medical imaging modalities for non-medical purposes (e.g., forensic purposes), magnetic resonance imaging, a radiation free medical imaging modality, is being investigated to develop new methodologies to estimate the age of living individuals.

Determination of ancestry
The estimation of individuals' ancestry is typically grouped into three groups. However, the use of these classifications is becoming much harder as the rate of interancestrial marriages increases. The maxilla can be used to help anthropologists estimate an individual's ancestry due to the three basic shapes: hyperbolic, parabolic, and rounded. In addition to the maxilla, the zygomatic arch and the nasal opening have been used to narrow down possible ancestry.

By measuring distances between landmarks on the skull as well as the size and shape of specific bones, anthropologists can use a series of equations to estimate ancestry. A program called FORDISC has been created that will calculate the most likely ancestry using complex mathematical formulas. This program is continually updated with new information from known individuals to maintain a database of current populations and their respective measurements. A 2009 study found that even in favourable circumstances, FORDISC 3.0 classifications have only a 1% confidence level. Research presented at the 2012 Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists concluded that ForDisc ancestry determination was not always consistent, and that the program should be used with caution. Determination of ancestry is incredibly controversial but often needed for police investigations to narrow down subject pool.

Other markers
Anthropologists are also able to see other markers present on the bones. Past fractures will be evident by the presence of bone remodeling but only for a certain amount of time. After around seven years, bone remodelling should make the presence of a fracture impossible to see. The examination of any fractures on the bones can potentially help determine the type of trauma they may have experienced. Cause of death is not determined by the forensic anthropologist, as they are not qualified to do so. However, they are able to determine the type of trauma experienced such as gun shot wound, blunt force, sharp force, or a mixture thereof. It is also possible to determine if a fracture occurred ante-mortem (before death), peri-mortem (at the time of death), or post-mortem (after death). Ante-mortem fractures will show signs of healing (depending on how long before death the fracture occurred) while peri- and post-mortem fractures will not. Peri-mortem fractures can incorporate quite a large range of time, as ante-mortem trauma that is unrelated directly to death may not have had time to begin the healing process. Peri-mortem fractures will usually appear clean with rounded margins and equal discolouration after death, while post-mortem breaks will appear brittle. Post-mortem breaks will often be a different colour to the surrounding bone i.e. whiter as they have been exposed to taphonomic processes for a different amount of time. However, depending on how long there is between a post-mortem break and removal this may not be obvious i.e. through re-interment by a killer. Diseases such as bone cancer might be present in bone marrow samples and can help narrow down the list of possible identifications.

Forensic archaeology
The term "forensic archaeology" is not defined uniformly around the world, and is therefore practiced in a variety of ways.

Forensic archaeologists employ their knowledge of proper excavation techniques to ensure that remains are recovered in a controlled and forensically acceptable manner. When remains are found partially or completely buried the proper excavation of the remains will ensure that any evidence present on the bones will remain intact. The difference between forensic archaeologists and forensic anthropologists is that where forensic anthropologists are trained specifically in human osteology and recovery of human remains, forensic archaeologists specialize more broadly in the processes of search and discovery. In addition to remains, archaeologists are trained to look for objects contained in and around the excavation area. These objects can include anything from wedding rings to potentially probative evidence such as cigarette butts or shoe prints. Their training extends further to observing context, association and significance of objects in a crime scene and drawing conclusions that may be useful for locating a victim or suspect. A forensic archaeologist must also be able to utilize a degree of creativity and adaptability during times when crime scenes can not be excavated using traditional archaeological techniques. For example, one particular case study was conducted on the search and recovery of the remains of a missing girl who was found in a septic tank underground. This instance required unique methods unlike those of a typical archeological excavation in order to exhume and preserve the contents of the tank.

Forensic archaeologists are involved within three main areas. Assisting with crime scene research, investigation, and recovery of evidence and/or skeletal remains is only one aspect.

Processing scenes of mass fatality or incidents of terrorism (i.e. homicide, mass graves and war crimes, and other violations of human rights) is a branch of work that forensic archaeologists are involved with as well.

Forensic archaeologists can help determine potential grave sites that might have been overlooked. Differences in the soil can help forensic archaeologists locate these sites. During the burial of a body, a small mound of soil will form from the filling of the grave. The loose soil and increasing nutrients from the decomposing body encourages different kinds of plant growth than surrounding areas. Typically, grave sites will have looser, darker, more organic soil than areas around it. The search for additional grave sites can be useful during the investigation of genocide and mass graves to search for additional burial locations.

One other discipline to the career of a forensic archaeologist is teaching and research. Educating law enforcement, crime scene technicians and investigators, as well as undergraduate and graduate students is a critical part of a forensic archaeologist's career in order to spread knowledge of proper excavation techniques to other forensic personnel and to increase awareness of the field in general. Crime scene evidence in the past has been compromised due to improper excavation and recovery by untrained personnel. Forensic anthropologists are then unable to provide meaningful analyses on retrieved skeletal remains due to damage or contamination. Research conducted to improve archaeological field methods, particularly to advance nondestructive methods of search and recovery are also important for the advancement and recognition of the field.

There is an ethical component that must be considered. The capability to uncover information about victims of war crimes or homicide may present a conflict in cases that involve competing interests. Forensic archaeologists are often contracted to assist with the processing of mass graves by larger organisations that have motives related to exposure and prosecution rather than providing peace of mind to families and communities. These projects are at times opposed by smaller, human rights groups who wish to avoid overshadowing memories of the individuals with their violent manner(s) of death. In cases like these, forensic archaeologists must practice caution and recognize the implications behind their work and the information they uncover.

Forensic taphonomy
The examination of skeletal remains often takes into account environmental factors that affect decomposition. Forensic taphonomy is the study of these postmortem changes to human remains caused by soil, water, and the interaction with plants, insects, and other animals. In order to study these effects, body farms have been set up by multiple universities. Students and faculty study various environmental effects on the decomposition of donated cadavers. At these locations, cadavers are placed in various situations and their rate of decomposition along with any other factors related to the decomposition process are studied. Potential research projects can include whether black plastic causes decomposition to occur faster than clear plastic or the effects freezing can have on a dumped body.

Forensic taphonomy is divided into two separate sections, biotaphonomy and geotaphonomy. Biotaphonomy is the study of how the environment affects the decomposition of the body. Specifically it is the examination of biological remains in order to ascertain how decomposition or destruction occurred. This can include factors such as animal scavenging, climate, as well as the size and age of the individual at the time of death. Biotaphonomy must also take into account common mortuary services such as embalming and their effects on decomposition.

Geotaphonomy is the examination of how the decomposition of the body affects the environment. Geotaphonomy examinations can include how the soil was disturbed, pH alteration of the surrounding area, and either the acceleration or deceleration of plant growth around the body. By examining these characteristics, examiners can begin to piece together a timeline of the events during and after death. This can potentially help determine the time since death, whether or not trauma on the skeleton was a result of perimortem or postmortem activity, as well as if scattered remains were the result of scavengers or a deliberate attempt to conceal the remains by an assailant.

Education
Individuals looking to become forensic anthropologists first obtain a bachelor's degree in anthropology from an accredited university. During their studies they should focus on physical anthropology as well as osteology. In addition it is recommended that individuals take courses in a wide range of sciences such as biology, chemistry, anatomy, and genetics.

Once undergraduate education is completed the individual should proceed to graduate level courses. Typically, forensic anthropologists obtain doctorates in physical anthropology and have completed coursework in osteology, forensics, and archaeology. It is also recommended that individuals looking to pursue a forensic anthropology profession get experience in dissection usually through a gross anatomy class as well as useful internships with investigative agencies or practicing anthropologists. Once educational requirements are complete one can become certified by the forensic anthropology society in the region. This can include the IALM exam given by the Forensic Anthropology Society of Europe or the certification exam given by the American Board of Forensic Anthropology.

Typically, most forensic anthropologists perform forensic casework on a part-time basis, however there are individuals who work in the field full-time usually with federal or international agencies. Forensic anthropologists are usually employed in academia either at a university or a research facility.

Ethics
Like other forensic fields, forensic anthropologists are held to a high level of ethical standards due to their work in the legal system. Individuals who purposefully misrepresent themselves or any piece of evidence can be sanctioned, fined, or imprisoned by the appropriate authorities depending on the severity of the violation. Individuals who fail to disclose any conflict of interests or who fail to report all of their findings, regardless of what they may be, can face disciplinary actions. It is important that forensic anthropologists remain impartial during the course of an investigation. Any perceived bias during an investigation could hamper efforts in court to bring the responsible parties to justice.

In addition to the evidentiary guidelines forensic anthropologists should always keep in mind that the remains they are working with were once a person. If possible, local customs regarding dealing with the dead should be observed and all remains should be treated with respect and dignity.

title: Forensic anthropology


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Human remains

Human remains may refer to:

A corpse or skeleton

 * A deceased human body
 * A cadaver
 * A skeleton

Music

 * Human Remains (band), an American grindcore band
 * Human Remains (Hell album), 2011
 * Human Remains (Terry Allen album), 1996

Film and television

 * Human Remains (film), a 1998 documentary film by Jay Rosenblatt
 * Human Remains (TV series), a 2000 comedy series on BBC

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Human remains


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Equivalence of categories

In category theory, a branch of abstract mathematics, an equivalence of categories is a relation between two categories that establishes that these categories are "essentially the same". There are numerous examples of categorical equivalences from many areas of mathematics. Establishing an equivalence involves demonstrating strong similarities between the mathematical structures concerned. In some cases, these structures may appear to be unrelated at a superficial or intuitive level, making the notion fairly powerful: it creates the opportunity to "translate" theorems between different kinds of mathematical structures, knowing that the essential meaning of those theorems is preserved under the translation.

If a category is equivalent to the opposite (or dual) of another category then one speaks of a duality of categories, and says that the two categories are dually equivalent.

An equivalence of categories consists of a functor between the involved categories, which is required to have an "inverse" functor. However, in contrast to the situation common for isomorphisms in an algebraic setting, the composite of the functor and its "inverse" is not necessarily the identity mapping. Instead it is sufficient that each object be naturally isomorphic to its image under this composition. Thus one may describe the functors as being "inverse up to isomorphism". There is indeed a concept of isomorphism of categories where a strict form of inverse functor is required, but this is of much less practical use than the equivalence concept.

Definition
Formally, given two categories C and D, an equivalence of categories consists of a functor F : C → D, a functor G : D → C, and two natural isomorphisms ε: FG→ID and η : IC→GF. Here FG: D→D and GF: C→C denote the respective compositions of F and G, and IC: C→C and ID: D→D denote the identity functors on C and D, assigning each object and morphism to itself. If F and G are contravariant functors one speaks of a duality of categories instead.

One often does not specify all the above data. For instance, we say that the categories C and D are equivalent (respectively dually equivalent) if there exists an equivalence (respectively duality) between them. Furthermore, we say that F "is" an equivalence of categories if an inverse functor G and natural isomorphisms as above exist. Note however that knowledge of F is usually not enough to reconstruct G and the natural isomorphisms: there may be many choices (see example below).

Alternative characterizations
A functor F : C → D yields an equivalence of categories if and only if it is simultaneously: This is a quite useful and commonly applied criterion, because one does not have to explicitly construct the "inverse" G and the natural isomorphisms between FG, GF and the identity functors. On the other hand, though the above properties guarantee the existence of a categorical equivalence (given a sufficiently strong version of the axiom of choice in the underlying set theory), the missing data is not completely specified, and often there are many choices. It is a good idea to specify the missing constructions explicitly whenever possible. Due to this circumstance, a functor with these properties is sometimes called a weak equivalence of categories. (Unfortunately this conflicts with terminology from homotopy theory.)
 * full, i.e. for any two objects c1 and c2 of C, the map HomC(c1,c2) → HomD(Fc1,Fc2) induced by F is surjective;
 * faithful, i.e. for any two objects c1 and c2 of C, the map HomC(c1,c2) → HomD(Fc1,Fc2) induced by F is injective; and
 * essentially surjective (dense), i.e. each object d in D is isomorphic to an object of the form Fc, for c in C.

There is also a close relation to the concept of adjoint functors $$F\dashv G$$, where we say that $$F:C\rightarrow D$$ is the left adjoint of $$G:D\rightarrow C$$, or likewise, G is the right adjoint of F. Then C and D are equivalent (as defined above in that there are natural isomorphisms from FG to ID and IC to GF) if and only if $$F\dashv G$$ and both F and G are full and faithful.

When adjoint functors $$F\dashv G$$ are not both full and faithful, then we may view their adjointness relation as expressing a "weaker form of equivalence" of categories. Assuming that the natural transformations for the adjunctions are given, all of these formulations allow for an explicit construction of the necessary data, and no choice principles are needed. The key property that one has to prove here is that the counit of an adjunction is an isomorphism if and only if the right adjoint is a full and faithful functor.

Examples

 * Consider the category $$C$$ having a single object $$c$$ and a single morphism $$1_{c}$$, and the category $$D$$ with two objects $$d_{1}$$, $$d_{2}$$ and four morphisms: two identity morphisms $$1_{d_{1}}$$, $$1_{d_{2}}$$ and two isomorphisms $$\alpha \colon d_{1} \to d_{2}$$ and $$\beta \colon d_{2} \to d_{1}$$. The categories $$C$$ and $$D$$ are equivalent; we can (for example) have $$F$$ map $$c$$ to $$d_{1}$$ and $$G$$ map both objects of $$D$$ to $$c$$ and all morphisms to $$1_{c}$$.
 * By contrast, the category $$C$$ with a single object and a single morphism is not equivalent to the category $$E$$ with two objects and only two identity morphisms. The two objects in $$E$$ are not isomorphic in that there are no morphisms between them. Thus any functor from $$C$$ to $$E$$ will not be essentially surjective.
 * Consider a category $$C$$ with one object $$c$$, and two morphisms $$1_{c}, f \colon c \to c$$. Let $$1_{c}$$ be the identity morphism on $$c$$ and set $$f \circ f = 1$$.  Of course, $$C$$ is equivalent to itself, which can be shown by taking $$1_{c}$$ in place of the required natural isomorphisms between the functor $$\mathbf{I}_{C}$$ and itself.  However, it is also true that $$f$$ yields a natural isomorphism from $$\mathbf{I}_{C}$$ to itself.  Hence, given the information that the identity functors form an equivalence of categories, in this example one still can choose between two natural isomorphisms for each direction.
 * The category of sets and partial functions is equivalent to but not isomorphic with the category of pointed sets and point-preserving maps.
 * Consider the category $$C$$ of finite-dimensional real vector spaces, and the category $$D = \mathrm{Mat}(\mathbb{R})$$ of all real matrices (the latter category is explained in the article on additive categories). Then $$C$$ and $$D$$ are equivalent: The functor $$G \colon D \to C$$ which maps the object $$A_{n}$$ of $$D$$ to the vector space $$\mathbb{R}^{n}$$ and the matrices in $$D$$ to the corresponding linear maps is full, faithful and essentially surjective.
 * One of the central themes of algebraic geometry is the duality of the category of affine schemes and the category of commutative rings. The functor $$G$$ associates to every commutative ring its spectrum, the scheme defined by the prime ideals of the ring.  Its adjoint $$F$$ associates to every affine scheme its ring of global sections.
 * In functional analysis the category of commutative C*-algebras with identity is contravariantly equivalent to the category of compact Hausdorff spaces. Under this duality, every compact Hausdorff space $$X$$ is associated with the algebra of continuous complex-valued functions on $$X$$, and every commutative C*-algebra is associated with the space of its maximal ideals.  This is the Gelfand representation.
 * In lattice theory, there are a number of dualities, based on representation theorems that connect certain classes of lattices to classes of topological spaces. Probably the most well-known theorem of this kind is Stone's representation theorem for Boolean algebras, which is a special instance within the general scheme of Stone duality.  Each Boolean algebra $$B$$ is mapped to a specific topology on the set of ultrafilters of $$B$$.  Conversely, for any topology the clopen (i.e. closed and open) subsets yield a Boolean algebra.  One obtains a duality between the category of Boolean algebras (with their homomorphisms) and Stone spaces (with continuous mappings). Another case of Stone duality is Birkhoff's representation theorem stating a duality between finite partial orders and finite distributive lattices.
 * In pointless topology the category of spatial locales is known to be equivalent to the dual of the category of sober spaces.
 * For two rings R and S, the product category R-Mod×S-Mod is equivalent to (R×S)-Mod.
 * Any category is equivalent to its skeleton.

Properties
As a rule of thumb, an equivalence of categories preserves all "categorical" concepts and properties. If F : C → D is an equivalence, then the following statements are all true:
 * the object c of C is an initial object (or terminal object, or zero object), if and only if Fc is an initial object (or terminal object, or zero object) of D
 * the morphism α in C is a monomorphism (or epimorphism, or isomorphism), if and only if Fα is a monomorphism (or epimorphism, or isomorphism) in D.
 * the functor H : I → C has limit (or colimit) l if and only if the functor FH : I → D has limit (or colimit) Fl. This can be applied to equalizers, products and coproducts among others. Applying it to kernels and cokernels, we see that the equivalence F is an exact functor.
 * C is a cartesian closed category (or a topos) if and only if D is cartesian closed (or a topos).

Dualities "turn all concepts around": they turn initial objects into terminal objects, monomorphisms into epimorphisms, kernels into cokernels, limits into colimits etc.

If F : C → D is an equivalence of categories, and G1 and G2 are two inverses of F, then G1 and G2 are naturally isomorphic.

If F : C → D is an equivalence of categories, and if C is a preadditive category (or additive category, or abelian category), then D may be turned into a preadditive category (or additive category, or abelian category) in such a way that F becomes an additive functor. On the other hand, any equivalence between additive categories is necessarily additive. (Note that the latter statement is not true for equivalences between preadditive categories.)

An auto-equivalence of a category C is an equivalence F : C → C. The auto-equivalences of C form a group under composition if we consider two auto-equivalences that are naturally isomorphic to be identical. This group captures the essential "symmetries" of C. (One caveat: if C is not a small category, then the auto-equivalences of C may form a proper class rather than a set.)

title: Equivalence of categories


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Bertrand, Count of Toulouse

Bertrand of Toulouse (or Bertrand of Tripoli) (died 1112) was count of Toulouse, and was the first count of Tripoli to rule in Tripoli itself.

Bertrand was the eldest son of Raymond IV, Count of Toulouse, and had ruled Toulouse since Raymond left on the First Crusade in 1095. He was, between 1098 and 1100, dispossessed by his cousin Philippa, Countess of Toulouse and her husband William IX, Duke of Aquitaine, who marched into Toulouse and captured it. They mortgaged it back later to Bertrand in 1100 to fund Duke William's expedition to the Holy Land. Bertrand officially became count of Toulouse when Raymond died in 1105, and in 1108 he travelled to Tripoli to take control there as well.

Bertrand deposed Raymond's nephew William II Jordan as nominal count of Tripoli in 1109, and with Baldwin I of Jerusalem of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and a fleet of Genoese ships, he captured Tripoli on 12 July.

Bertrand married Helie of Burgundy, daughter of Eudes I, in June 1095.

Bertrand ruled in Tripoli until his death in 1112. He was succeeded by his son Pons in the County of Tripoli, and by his brother Alfonso Jordan in the County of Toulouse - although Toulouse was at that point again lost to Philippa and William.

title: Bertrand, Count of Toulouse


text:
User talk:Muthu

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Here are some useful links in case you haven't already found them;

 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

snoyes 18:27, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:Muthu


text:
Fluid feeder

Fluid feeders are organisms that feed on the fluid of other organisms. It can refer to:

 * Hematophagy, feeding on blood
 * Nectarivore, feeding on nectar
 * Plant sap feeders

title: Fluid feeder


text:
Raphael Cartoons

The Raphael Cartoons are seven large cartoons for tapestries, surviving from a set of ten cartoons, designed by the High Renaissance painter Raphael in 1515–16, commissioned by Pope Leo X for the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican Palace. The tapestries show scenes from the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles and are hung (on special occasions) below the frescoes of the Life of Christ and the Life of Moses commissioned by Pope Sextus. The cartoons belong to the British Royal Collection but since 1865 are on loan to the Victoria and Albert Museum in London.

The tapestries rivalled Michelangelo's ceiling as the most famous and influential designs of the Renaissance, and were well known to all artists of the Renaissance and Baroque through reproduction in the form of prints. Admiration of them reached its highest pitch in the 18th and 19th centuries; they were described as "the Parthenon sculptures of modern art".

Commission and the tapestries
Raphael was highly conscious that his work would be seen beneath the Sistine Chapel ceiling, which had been finished by Michelangelo only two years before, and took great care perfecting his designs, which are among his largest and most complicated. Originally the set was intended to include 16 tapestries. Raphael was paid twice by Leo, in June 1515 and December 1516, the last payment apparently being upon completion of the work. Tapestries retained their Late Gothic prestige during the Renaissance. Raphael was paid a total of 1,000 ducats. Most of the expense was in the manufacture, with the creation of the tapestries in Brussels costing 15,000 ducats.

Raphael knew that the final product of his work would be produced by craftsmen rendering his design in another medium; his efforts are therefore entirely concentrated on strong compositions and broad effects, rather than felicitous handling or detail. It was partly this that made the designs so effective when later reproduced in reduced print versions. The cartoons are painted in a glue distemper medium on many sheets of paper glued together (as can be seen in the full-size illustrations). They are now mounted on a canvas backing and are in general in very good condition apart from some fading of the colours.

The cartoons are all slightly over 3 m (9 feet 10 inches) tall, and from 3 to 5 m (9 feet 10 inches to 16 feet 5 inches) wide, with the figures being over-lifesize. The cartoons are mirror-images of the finished tapestries, which were worked from behind. Raphael's workshop would have assisted in the completion of the cartoons which were finished with great care. The cartoons show a much greater range of colours and more subtle gradation than could be reproduced in a tapestry. Some small preparatory drawings also survive: one for The Conversion of the Proconsul is also in the Royal Collection, and the Getty Museum in Malibu has a figure study of St Paul Rending His Garments. There would have been other drawings for all the subjects, which have been lost; it was from these that the first prints were made.

The tapestries had very wide and elaborate borders, also designed by Raphael, which these cartoons omit; presumably they had their own cartoons. Some of the side borders are separate pieces. The borders included ornamentation in an imitation of Ancient Roman relief sculpture and carved porphyry, as well as scenes from the life of Leo. They were themselves very influential, and sometimes used for other tapestries.

The cartoons were probably completed in 1516 and were then sent to Brussels, where the Vatican tapestries were woven by the workshop of Pieter van Aelst. The first delivery was in 1517, and seven were displayed in the Chapel for Christmas Day in 1519 (then as now, their display was reserved for special occasions).

The tapestries were partly destroyed in the Sack of Rome in 1527. As they were made with both gold and silver thread, some were burnt by soldiers during the attack to extract the precious metals. The Vatican Museums have acquired tapestries and recreated sections to complete a full set, now usually displayed in a gallery, but sometimes moved to the Sistine Chapel for special occasions. They were displayed in the chapel for a week in February 2020, to mark the 500th anniversary of Raphael's death. Their layout around the chapel is a matter of discussion among scholars, as there is no record of what was originally intended.

The Raphael's cartoons were revered by The Carracci, but the great period of their influence began with Nicolas Poussin, who borrowed heavily from them and "indeed exaggerated Raphael's style; or rather concentrated it, for he was working on a much smaller scale". Thereafter they remained the touchstone of one approach to history painting until at least the early 19th century – the Raphael whose influence the Pre-Raphaelites wanted to reject was perhaps above all the Raphael of the cartoons.

Subjects

The Raphael Cartoons represent scenes from the lives of Saints Peter and Paul. As was usual, the completed tapestries reverse are a mirror image of the cartoon designs. The programme emphasised a number of points relevant to contemporary controversies in the period just before the Protestant Reformation, but especially the entrusting of the Church to Saint Peter, the founder of the papacy. There were relatively few precedents for these subjects, so Raphael was less constrained by traditional iconographic expectations than he would have been with a series on the life of Christ or Mary. He no doubt received some advice or instructions in choosing the scenes to depict. The scenes from the Life of Peter were designed to hang below the frescoes of the Life of Christ by Perugino and others in the middle register of the Chapel; opposite them, the Life of Saint Paul was to hang below the Life of Moses in fresco. An intervening small frieze showed subjects from the life of Leo, also designed to complement the other series. Each sequence begins at the altar wall, with the Life of Peter on the right side of the Chapel and Life of Paul on the left. Including the three subjects with no surviving cartoons, the set contains (the full scriptural quotations and a commentary are on the V&A website):

Life of Peter

 * The Miraculous Draught of Fishes (Luke 5:1–11)
 * Christ's Charge to Peter (Matthew 16:16–19) The key moment in the Gospels for the claims of the Papacy
 * The Healing of the Lame Man (Acts 3:1–8)
 * The Death of Ananias (Acts 5:1–10)

Life of Paul

 * The Stoning of St Stephen (no cartoon) at which Paul (Saul) was present before his conversion.
 * The Conversion of Saint Paul (no cartoon)
 * The Conversion of the Proconsul or The Blinding of Elymas (Acts 13:6–12). Paul had been invited to preach to the Roman proconsul of Paphos, Sergius Paulus, but is heckled by Elymas, a "magus", whom Paul miraculously causes to go temporarily blind, thus converting the proconsul.
 * The Sacrifice at Lystra (Acts 14:8). After Paul miraculously cures a cripple, the people of Lystra see him and his companion Barnabas (both standing left) as gods, and want to make a sacrifice to them. Paul tears his garments in disgust, whilst Barnabas speaks to the crowd, persuading the young man at centre to restrain the man with the sacrificial axe.
 * St Paul in prison (no cartoon), much smaller than the others, tall and narrow. This is also missing from the later tapestry sets.
 * St Paul Preaching in Athens (Acts 17:16–34), the figure standing at the left in a red cap is a portrait of Leo; next to him is Janus Lascaris, a Greek scholar in Rome. The kneeling couple at the right were probably added by Giulio Romano, then an assistant to Raphael.

 * The subjects missing from the cartoon set

The Miraculous Draught of Fishes (Luke 5:1–11)
This cartoon depicts Christ telling Peter and the Apostles where to cast their net. This resulted in the "miraculous catch." Within the design, Peter is pictured bowing before Christ as if thanking him for the harvest full bounty that was caught. Raphael's exquisite attention to details are shown in this tapestry in how there is a mirror image of the artwork reflected in the water. There is a great use of foreshortening. His use of perspective in the distant background is used effectively. Raphael demonstrates an excellent use of tones in the forefront of the image.

Christ's Charge to Peter (Matthew 16:16–19)
Within this tapestry Raphael combines the two Bible stories of Matthew 16:18–19. Raphael portrays Christ commanding Peter to share the Gospel for him. Christ points at Peter while simultaneously pointing at the sheep. This creates a connection for Peter. He is chosen as the shepherd for the believers. Raphael utilizes foreshortening to help viewers focus on the main images and message of the cartoon. He effortlessly implements chiaroscuro. The use of colors to show different lighting illustrates where the sun is in relation to the characters.

The Healing of the Lame Man (Acts 3:1–8)
The incredible story of Peter healing the lame man, Acts 3:1–8 is a tapestry within Raphael's Cartoon collection. This miracle illustrates the "spiritual healing of Jesus." Pictured is the lame man sitting and leaning against an intricately detailed column with his arm reaching overhead for Peter to cradle his hand. Raphael's attention to detail is displayed in the lame man's face. The shadowing and tones used create the look of an aged, tired man. The wrinkles in his face and his eyes display the pain he is feeling. The lines used in the creation of his legs and feet define muscular legs and impaired feet. All of this artistic detail reinforces the fact that the lame man spent many years lying and crawling on the ground impaired by his handicap. In contrast, Peter stands clutching his hand while praying over him. The details in Peter's face and expression reinforce his concern. The rendering of the clothing is exceptional. It gives the appearance of creased material that can be felt. Furthermore, the detail of each individual's hair enables the viewer to detect exactly how their hair would appear in person.

The Death of Ananias (Acts 5:1–10)
Raphael's tapestry expertly illustrates the story of Acts 5:1–10. This could also be named the miracles of Peter. This artwork explains the story of how Peter is capable of punishing and saving others. The Apostles requested that the Christian followers sell their items and tithe the money. During this, Ananias steals from the church by stealing some of the money. When questioned by Peter, Ananias denies any wrong doing. Ananias drops dead. He was punished for his sins of stealing and lying. Raphael once again applies the skill of chiaroscuro to illustrate this tapestry. His use of tones and shading help place lighting and shadows to specific areas of this artwork. The use of implied lines is demonstrated with the man standing over Ananias pointing to another individual who is pointing up, as if he is pointing to God. This implies that God can help him. The group of men on the right appears concerned with Ananias and wants to help. On the other hand, the men to the left seem frightened.

The Conversion of the Proconsul (Acts 13:6–12)
This tapestry depicts the story written in Acts 13:6–12. Elymas tries to keep Paul and Barnabas from converting others to Christianity. Elymas suffers temporary blindness for this action. Observing and experiencing this event, leads the proconsul to conversion. Paul's overall goal to convert others to Christianity is illustrated through this tapestry. Raphael utilizes tone and shading to convey different levels of light. He has created a different colored robe for each man. This helps them stand out from the crowd. The different amounts of coating, creates texture throughout the tapestry and images appear more lifelike.

The Sacrifice at Lystra (Acts 14:8)
Acts 14:8 influenced this tapestry. It represents the story of how Paul and Barnabas were mistaken for the Gods, Mercury and Jupiter, after Paul healed a lame man. The townspeople of Lystra wanted to offer sacrifices to them. Paul was dismayed and proceeded to convince the crowd that they were God's messengers. The foremost character in this scene is a citizen ready to partake in the sacrifice. He wields an axe above his head ready to execute the ox. Raphael's focus on this man's face expresses his determination in the situation. Raphael's use of line, shading and toning reveal his muscular form.

St Paul Preaching at Athens (Acts 17:16–34)
This tapestry illustrates the story written in Acts 17:16–34. It illustrates Paul preaching to Athens's judicial council. Paul explains Christianity and the importance of knowing God. The viewer can feel Paul's excitement of sharing his message. His arms are stretched out to the crowd, grabbing their attention and welcoming them into the message. Raphael's detail on each individual's face easily reveals their thoughts and feelings regarding Paul. Paul's clothing and the council's clothing include brightly colored robes gracefully wrapped around them. The lines, colors and shading used on the ground give the appearance of a cold marble floor.

Further sets made in Brussels
Cartoons were sometimes returned with tapestries to the commissioner, but this clearly did not happen here, perhaps because of the death of Leo. This allowed four other recorded sets to be made later in Brussels, all of nine tapestries, missing the small Saint Paul in Prison.

One set was bought by Henry VIII of England in 1542. These tapestries were at Westminster Abbey for the coronation of Elizabeth I, and on 14 February 1613 to decorate the chapel of Whitehall Palace for the wedding of Princess Elizabeth and Frederick V of the Palatinate. After being sold in 1649 in the dispersion of the collection of Charles I of England, eventually Henry's set ended up in Berlin, where it was destroyed by a fire at the end of World War II.

King Francis I of France had another of similar date, now lost. The Ducal Palace, Mantua has a set, made in Brussels for Cardinal Ercole Gonzaga in the early 16th century, with the arms of Gonzaga in the borders. Dussler describes these as "in better condition than the series in the Vatican". A set woven around 1550 that joined the Spanish royal collection some time in the following decades now belongs to the Patrimonio Nacional, and is usually hung in the Royal Palace, Madrid.

In England
The seven cartoons now in London were bought from a Genoese collection in 1623 by King Charles I of England, then still Prince of Wales, using agents. He paid only £300 for them, a price that suggests they were regarded as working designs rather than works of art in their own right. Charles had in fact intended to make further tapestries from them at the Mortlake Tapestry Works near London, which he did, with new baroque borders by their designer Francis Cleyn, paying £500 each, but was well aware of their artistic significance. They had been cut into long vertical strips a yard wide, as was required for use on low-warp tapestry looms, and were only permanently rejoined in the 1690s at Hampton Court. In Charles' day these were stored in wooden boxes in the Banqueting House, Whitehall. They were one of the few items in the Royal Collection withheld from sale by Oliver Cromwell after Charles' execution. The fate of the other three cartoons from the set is unknown; that for the Conversion of Saint Paul was recorded in the collection of Cardinal Grimani in Venice in 1521, and of his heir in 1526.

William III commissioned Sir Christopher Wren and William Talman to design the "Cartoon Gallery" at Hampton Court Palace in 1699, specially to contain them. By this date, the prestige of tapestries in general was beginning to wane, and those of the early sets that had survived were probably already rather faded and dirty. From this point on, the cartoons became regarded as the most authentic and attractive expression of Raphael's conceptions. European taste had also moved in their favour; their dignified classicism was very much in tune with a movement away from the more frenzied versions of the Baroque. The fame of the cartoons, as opposed to the designs in general, grew rapidly.

In 1763, when George III moved them to the newly bought Buckingham House (now Buckingham Palace) there were protests in Parliament by John Wilkes and others, as they would no longer be accessible to the public (Hampton Court had long been open to visitors). They had been greatly studied by artists and cognoscenti alike whilst at Hampton Court, and played a crucial role in forming English expectations of a monumental style of painting; one of the great preoccupations of English art in the 18th century. These were often mentioned in the Discourses of Sir Joshua Reynolds, the dominant English critical work on art of the century. Having explained that "The principal works of modern art are in fresco" he specifically adds the cartoons "which, though not strictly to be called fresco, yet may be put under that denomination" before claiming that "Raffaelle ... stands in general foremost of the first painters..." (i.e. the best painters) and comparing Raphael's works in oil unfavourably to his frescoes.

In 1804 they were returned to Hampton Court, where in 1858 they were photographed for the first time by Charles Thompson Thurston, having been taken out into the courtyard and placed upside down on special scaffolding. In 1865 Queen Victoria decided that the cartoons should be exhibited on loan at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, where they are still to be seen in a specially designed gallery. There are also copies at many locations, including Knole House and Hampton Court Palace, where the copies painted in the 1690s by an artist named Henry Cooke are displayed in the Cartoon Gallery. The Royal Collection also has a set of the tapestries. A set of copies painted by Sir James Thornhill have been owned by Columbia University since 1959, and another is in the Royal Academy.

Several other sets were made in Mortlake; Cleyn had made copies of the designs, and these were used. Charles I's set was bought by Cardinal Mazarin, and now belongs to the French government. Forde Abbey, Chatsworth House, the Duke of Buccleuch and others have sets. A set of six tapestries is now in the Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister in Dresden, and the Ducal Palace, Urbino displays a set.

Prints after the designs
In the early 16th century many Italian artists learnt the lesson of the huge, and very rapid, international prestige that Albrecht Dürer had gained through his prints, and set out to emulate him. Raphael had no knowledge of printmaking himself, and was probably too busy to want to learn the techniques, but he was the most successful of the Italians in spreading his fame through prints, through his much debated relationship with the engraver Marcantonio Raimondi and his workshop. Raphael made many drawings solely as designs for prints, and the workshop made a large number of prints, apparently working always from drawings rather than the finished work, of Raphael's paintings in the Vatican and elsewhere; the tapestry designs were no exception. These prints themselves were very widely copied by other printmakers, and spread rapidly through Europe. The earliest datable print after one of the designs is an engraving of 1516 by Agostino Veneziano, then working in the workshop of Marcantonio Raimondi, of the Death of Ananias. This was probably made even before that tapestry was woven. The composition is in the same direction as the tapestry, but since the printmaking process would also reverse the direction of the composition, this almost certainly means it was deliberately reversed compared to the detailed preparatory drawing in the Royal Collection on which it was based (see above; the two agree in all details), probably by taking a counterprint from the chalk drawing. All Raimondi and Veneziano's prints of Raphael's designs in Raphael's lifetime were based on drawings, according to both Landau and Pons. Raimondi himself engraved one of the set, which were presumably all produced around 1516, so that even many in the Roman art world may have seen prints of the designs before they saw the tapestries themselves.

Agostino's engraving was rapidly copied in another well-known version, a four-colour chiaroscuro woodcut by Ugo da Carpi, dated 1518. The da Carpi woodcut is often cited in studies of the complex question of early image copyright, as it bears (in its first state) a Latin inscription beneath the image claiming "copyright"-style privileges from both the Venetian Republic and the Papacy (covering the Papal States) and threatening excommunication for anyone breaching the latter. Apart from other straightforward copies of the prints from the Raimondi set, Parmigianino did a typically individual print version of one design from the set in about 1530.

A later large set of engravings by Matthaeus Merian the Elder illustrating the Bible, from around the end of the century, used some of the compositions, slightly increasing the height, and elaborating them. These were much used and copied in popular books, further widening the knowledge of the designs to a much larger audience.

After the cartoons were reassembled at the end of the 17th century, by which time printmakers were well accustomed to copying direct from large paintings, they became the dominant source of new print copies. By the 18th century many different print versions were in circulation, of varying faithfulness and quality.

title: Raphael Cartoons


text:
User:Kokiri/WQA

There are quantitative data about Wikipedia (statistics), but this article is an attempt to test the quality of Wikipedia. I have sampled 50 random pages using the Random Page function on 23 November 2003. I haven't counted the disambiguation page. Please note that the sample (50) is relatively small, but I do hope it helps to highlight some characteristics of Wikipedia. I don't think this test is very good, but its a start.

Update
I have now added a further column to the data, showing how many article link to each of the articles tested. The data of this column are as of 22 February 2004. Kokiri

Results

 * Please note the small size of the sample (50) and the methodology used.
 * Out of the 50 entries tested, a mere 19 (38%) were articles. However, this is more than the number of entries that do not even look like a proper article (i.e. stubs and fragmented gaps; 32%).
 * Bot entries make up a great number of entries (24%) which might be considered disturbing. At first glance they look as if there was a perfectly finished article, but in fact no further work has been done on these entries. They are mere collections of statistical numbers. A fine detail is maybe that the bot entries not even mention that the entry is about a place in the USA (it only mentions the US state).
 * With 24% of the entries stubs make up a significant number (over a quarter) of the total. Out of the 12 stubs a staggering 9 (75% of stubs) were not marked as stubs (i.e. did not have a stub alert attached). This means that - unless the user changed her or his preferences - all links to the stubs look as if there was a proper article behind. Not being marked as stubs they do not appear on the list of stubs. Also, an outsider may assume that the rest of Wikipedia is no good either and disregard the many good articles there are on Wikipedia.
 * Comparing the stubs with Britannica is interesting. This helps to identify the quality of the stubs. A stub which has an equivalent entry in Britannica is bound to develop, one without may be on an abstruse topic, a geek subject or simply on something that does not belong to an encyclopedia. Interestingly three of the stubs (23% of stubs) do have entries in Britannica. It is the stubs on two Japanese cities and a glacier. Most other stubs have equivalent entries in Britannica, but as part of a larger article. This suggests that there might not be enough substance to the entry to justify an individual article. Only four of the 12 stubs (25% of stubs) have no equivalent entry in Britannica, one of which is a simple dictionary definition (Wikipedia is no dictionary).
 * The assessment may be interpreted as supporting Kill the Stubs. This so, as most of the stubs (75% of stubs) do not seem to have the potential to grow since there might simply not be enough to the entry. Many stubs cannot justify their existence without a supporting article in which they probably should be incorporated.
 * The story of the short, fragmented gaps is similar to that of stubs. About half of them have no equivalent in Britannica (2 entries), an equal number only as part of a larger article (2 entries). This again suggests that there is maybe no justification for an entry on its own. One short article has an equivalent short entry in Britannica.
 * None of the bot articles in the test had an entry in Britannica. This suggests that these places are not of great significant other than to their inhabitants. The existence of these bot articles contributes to the US bias in Wikipedia.
 * It is striking that there were only three elements of media in the sample (6% of entries with media). This was two pictures (4%) and one map (2%).
 * Lists do not appear in Britannica to a great extent, and where they do, the equivalents in Wikipedia tend to be more complete (yet generally no less US biased). (Of the three lists in the sample one was empty, one had a significantly shorter entry equivalent in Britannica and one had an equivalent article in Britannica.)

The Data
Here is the data that was collected for the assessment.

title: User:Kokiri/WQA


text:
Talk:List of Latin-script alphabets/Archive 1

Which letters are considered part of the alphabet?
The information presented here is inconsistent as to which letters are considered part of the alphabet... for example, "ä" in Swedish is a letter in the alphabet and has its own order, whereas e.g. French "é" is considered a variant of "e". So this list is a mixture of "letters in the alphabet of language X" and "letters used when writing language X [regardless of whether they are considered separate letters of not]".

Similarly with digraphs which are mentioned in the notes below the tables; for example, some languages consider "ch" a separate letter, with its own position in the alphabetical order, while others use the digraph in their writing to represent one sound but sort it as the two letters c-h. -- pne 16:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Also, some languages include letters as part of the alphabet which are only used in foreign words - for example, Q or K or W or Y, depending on the language. How to treat those? -- pne 16:15, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * As far as I am concerned if a language considers a letter part of its alphabet, then it is part of its alphabet. Which means that we could go by the "X alphabet" articles, but those don't exist for all alphabets. Dori | Talk 16:18, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * I am assuming that this page is useful mostly for people who are not familiar with the languages in question. Therefore, the inclusion of an accented letter like "é" in the line of language X should not depend on the view of X's regulating body or grammarians. It seems more useful to include those "letters" here, and leave the fine points of nomenclature to be explained in the "X alphabet" page. Jorge Stolfi 12:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

 * As for digraphs, it seems better to leave them out (unless they are joined into a single glyph, like the Dutch "ij" or German es-zet). The reason is that there are far too may of them, and often the distinction between a digraph and a mere juxtaposition of letters is quite blurry.  (Is the "-ing" ending of English a trigraph?). They too are better explained in the "X alphabet" pages.  At most, collating anomalies like Spanish "ch" may be mentioned here as footnotes to the table.Jorge Stolfi 12:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Turkish dotted/undotted I
In the table header, shouldn't one show also the upper case dotless "I" and the lower case dotted "i"? True, they are identical to the plain latin letters. But the way the table is now, it looks as if those these letters do not exist in the Turkish alphabet. (Note that this situation is different from that of ess-zet, where the uppercase form is really non-existant.) Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Hm... good point. -- pne 16:21, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Changed now. -- pne 16:36, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

More characters needed
HELP... Portuguese uses also the letters "Ê", "Ô", "Ã", and "Õ" which are not on the table. Unfortunately adding the letters by hand is near impossible, and after spending a couple of hours trying to do it by script I concluded that it was just as hard. If you have the tools, could you please do that for me? Thanks... Jorge Stolfi 17:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * French also has Ê and Ô (as well as Û), and I when I added Maltese I wanted to add C-dot, G-dot, and H-bar as well. I'll see whether I have time to do this. -- pne 06:09, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * OK, done. French, Portuguese, and Maltese should now be complete. -- pne 12:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks!! And for splitting the table, too — it is much better now. Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

(Old) Joining the tables
Couldn't these all go on one page to aid comparison? It only about 26 letters extra for each language. Rmhermen 18:29, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree, if anyone feels up to doing it. Bmills 09:04, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

A table would be nice, e.g. --User:Docu

 * Not sure my editing skills are up to that. I'll try to learn how later today. Bmills 08:57, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * Have made table. Now I never want to see the page again! Bmills 17:09, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Great work. I like it. -- User:Docu

To add alphabets, copy the English one, and add/remove letters.

We might want to include or exclude all diacritics and fine tune collation -- User:Docu

Table changed
I've changed the table: it should be easier to edit/add new alphabets now. I've removed all diacritics, ligatures and other letters which do not exist in ASCII to after the Z.

I've also removed the Esperanto X-system: the letters like Cx are just a workaround for non-Unicode systems. If we include the X-system we ought to include the German 'e-system' as well, where ä becomes ae etc.. Jor 15:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Alphabetised the list (it was randomly sorted which irked me) and added Scots Gaelic to the list. Whoever originally wrote the tables can put the grave accents in their proper place - they left all fields for grave accents out as if acute accents were the only ones. Every segment has to be fixed in order to put them in now. Their fault.--172.175.248.241 07:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The table is a pain, if another character is to be added. Are the accented vowels really different letters in Scots Gaelic? Many languages include diacritics which are not here marked, but only a few see these as different letters. Jor 10:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

New table idea
What does everyone think of the table at Alphabets_derived_from_the_Latin/Temp? It uses the new table code and should be more easy to edit, also it scrolls better since I split the basic and extended alphabet. It was very easy to fix Scots Gaelic now. I would like to replace the main article table with the new one. Jor 18:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)ß
 * I'm generally in favour. The basic table is now clean. Only have minor remarks that also affect the original table:
 * On older browsers I see &rarr; and &darr;, maybe --> and v could be used?

 * Good idea. A shame we can't force people to upgrade their browsers ;) Jor 13:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Again on older browsers I see lots of ? in the extended table, but it's ok in Mozilla Firefox,Opera 7.11 and IE5.50. -Wikibob 09:39, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

 * The latter problem is unavoidable, as those older browsers couldn't render the characters anyway. The same applies to modern browsers on systems without Unicode fonts (I can't see two of the chars myself on a secondary system because that system doesn't include a font for the Latin Extended-B range). Jor 13:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I like it better since it doesn't widen the page. Dori | Talk 15:28, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks. No objections so far, so do you agree I can replace the table in the main article? Jor 15:34, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Is it just me, or would it be possible to simply replace all letters within each table with a tick? Is there really any need to replicate each letter each time? I assume that the point is that every instance of a letter in a given column is the same. --Phil | Talk 15:55, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * I think it's easier to see them the way it is now, especially in the more sparse area. Dori | Talk 15:58, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure, that's possible, but then you lose the ability to check horizontally. Especially since table borders collapse, and there are thus no internal lines in the table (at least in Opera 7.5P3— My Mozilla 1.7's behaviour seems to be buggy here). Jor 15:59, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, I changed my mind. I didn't notice how buggy it was under Mozilla until I did some vertical scrolling. I like not having to scroll horizontally, but being compatible Mozilla is more important. Dori | Talk 16:09, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Have you tried using &nbsp; in the empty boxes, as is traditional in HTML tables? Oh, and actually finishing each line? The Swedish alphabet line stops because that's where you stopped entering stuff! --Phil | Talk 16:20, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Take a look at it now. --Phil | Talk 16:21, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * I can see no difference. I'll take some screenshots to show what I mean. Jor 16:23, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Here's how it looks in IE 6 and Mozilla 1.6 from my end:
 * Image:Alphabet table ie6 dori.png
 * Image:Alphabet table mozilla16 dori.png
 * Dori | Talk 16:24, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * For future reference, I deleted these images since they're no longer needed. Dori | Talk 19:37, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Here's Opera 7.50P3:
 *
 * As far as I understand CSS, this is how border collapse should work. Jor 16:32, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Better than in Mozilla and IE, but what's with the strike-throughs? I believe we should go with the majority here though. If even open source browsers don't support it well, we should not expect our readers to go and get opera just to see a page. Dori | Talk 16:36, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Strike-throughs are my displayal for visited links, ignore ;-) I do not really understand what the problem with the new table is: the existing table looks even worse in my copy of Mozilla 1.7a. It seems the worst MSIE/Gecko bugs can be fixed by adding empty cells at the end of each line. Jor 16:40, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Well I get the nasty dashes in Mozilla if I scroll down with the mouse. And I don't have enough control over the fonts in IE6 (well not so immediate anyway) so the row-height is horrid. But I contend that most of the problem is that the ends of most of the rows have not been filled in. --Phil | Talk 16:31, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Okay, all lines are now filled. Thoughts? Looks good in Opera/7.50P3 and Opera/7.23 and acceptable in Mozilla/1.7a here now. Jor 16:56, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Opera looks identical as before, Gecko screenshot:
 *
 * Taken with K-Meleon 0.8.2 based on Gecko/20040311 Jor 17:00, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Much better now. Do we need to repeat the word alphabet for every single link? I think we might as well hide them, which will make the row height smaller. Also, instead of copying and pasting, we might have to delete the current page, move it, delete the redirect, and then merge in the old history. Dori | Talk 20:44, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Good ideas. I'll go edit the "alphabet" words. As for the move etc., I'll leave that to someone with admin powers. Jor 20:49, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, I did the move and history merge. The old version is available in the history in case someone thinks it should be reverted. I just noticed something while doing the move. The title of this article doesn't sound right. Should it be "Alphabets derived from the Latin one" or "Alphabets derived from Latin"? The current title doesn't make much sense to me. Dori | Talk 21:15, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Sounds okay to me (Alphabets derived from the Latin [alphabet]). I actually feel more for 'Alphabets based on the Latin', but I am not a native English speaker so derived may be better here. Thanks for doing the merge! Jor 21:26, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I think it should be "Latin-based alphabets" (or perhaps "Latin-derived alphabets"). Titles should be succinct. The preposition from is redundant, it doesn't help explaining what the article is about.
 * —Herbee 21:35, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)

Alphabet order
Why are the Ø and Œ columns in front of all the A's in the "Extended Latin Alphabet" table? I would expect them with the O's. The ß is with the S's, after all. Does anyone mind if I change this? —Herbee 21:51, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)

 * They Ø is only there because when I changed the table I didn't move it, and the Œ was inserted later. It probably makes more sense to put them with the O's. — Jor (Darkelf) 22:09, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Latin ligatures
AFAIK the Latin alphabet used Æ and Œ too. Shouldn't there be a "Latin" row at the top of the "Extended latin" table?

Trouble ahead
It seems wrong to include just a random subset of languages in the table and leave the rest as links. On the other hand, if one were to include a couple more languages, the table would not fit in the screen anymore. Vietnamese alone. Also the table does not show the collating order. So I propose a different organization:
 * (1) a table with one row for each language, that lists the alphabet in collating order, without vertical alignment:
 * Latin: A Æ, B, C, ...
 * Pinyin:A Á À &Abrevis; &Acaron; ...
 * (2) a separate table for each base Latin letter, showing all modifications of that letter used in various languages. These tables would be formatted like the present ones, with one row per language and one column per modified form.

What do you think? Jorge Stolfi 17:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So, any opinions on this proposal? Jorge Stolfi 19:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd be inclined to say that collating order can go in the "XYZ alphabet" article which is linked from the bottom. -- pne 06:08, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Ñ in Welsh?!
I've never seen the use of an N-tilde, rather than the digraph Ng (and it's a different phoneme, it's an eng like in thing, not an enye like in canyon. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to prove me wrong, if you have a reference to back you up ;o) — OwenBlacker 20:40, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with you -- it doesn't exist in Welsh. -- Arwel 21:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * While we're on the subject of Welsh, Ŵ and Ŷ are not actually separate letters so shouldn't be in the bottom table. Also, the note is wrong -- acute, grave, circumflex and diaeresis accents are used in Welsh on all 7 vowels. See this handy guide. Gareth 15:44, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ü in French
I have added Ü to the list of French variants. It is extremely rare, being used primarily in names such as Esaü or Saül, but it does exist. Kelisi 18:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Occitan needs to be added into the list of languages, cuz it has the Ü also. at least that's what it states in the 'umlaut (diacritic)' article. Ivansevil 23:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Need to add the Romany alphabet to this list
The 46-character Romany alphabet should be added to this list. -- Karada 15:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Done. (After 2 years from you have requested.) -- 11:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

tables amended
I have changed from Letters based on A-I/J-Z to Letters based on A-J/K-Z since I and J were historically related.--Hello World! 15:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I have cut the tables into 3 for easier reading with small screen.-- ✉ Hello World! 05:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Many missing characters
There are many characters missing, notably extended characters used in a number of African languages, a few less widely spoken European ones (Saami), and for som indigenous languages in the Americas and Australia. Many of the ones I am noticing that are missing happen also to be in the Unicode IPA range (the lower case versions). This also means that the languages of these regions are also missing. Altogether that would imply that a complete table (set of tables) would get very, very large. The tables that are here are good but - given the nature of the subject - far from complete. What would be the appropriate way to procede? Just add away? --A12n 17:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Unsure about the purpose of the Extensions table

 * 1) First, the footnotes are a mess. The ones on the table don't match the ones below, and clicking on them does nothing.
 * 2) Secondly, I can't make out what the Extensions table is supposed to represent: All the symbols used in a language? (Then where's Guarani's Ã, Ẽ, Ĩ, for example?) Only the symbols that are included in the official alphabet? (Then French and Portuguese Á, Â, German Ä, Ö, etc., have no business being there.)
 * 3) Third, it should be made clearer which digraphs are counted as part of the alphabet in each language, and which ones are not.

I hope this criticism serves to improve the article. FilipeS 13:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Table intro wrong
The paragraph before the foreign characters starts: ''Some languages have extended the Latin alphabet with ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. These symbols are listed below.'' And then goes on to list characters such as the Croatian Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ. The first sentence then is simply wrong since theese letters (and suspect many others in from others alphabet variations) are netiher ligatures, modified letters, or digraphs. They are as regular letters as any other representing a unique and independant voice.
 * You could of course replace modified by derived or something, but diacritc Marks do not create truely new Letters; neither do Accents.
 * You could rather argue that not the Languages extended the latin Alphabet -- sometimes the Term roman Alphabet is used instead to refer to the Sum of all those builing onto the latin one -- but their Users did for them. The Relationship between Graphemes and Phonemes is totally irrelevant, even for very phonetic Writing-Systems like the spanish or yugoslavian (with its 1:1-Mapping onto cyrillic Letters).
 * Nevertheless this is just one View and some Linguists probably use different Definitions of Letter. Christoph Päper 14:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Č, Ć, Ž, Š and Đ are all modified letters, i.e. letters obtained by combining a diacritic with one of the basic 26 letters in the first table. FilipeS 14:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

 * OK, than W is modified letter V, R is modified P and whole latin alphabet is just modified greek. In Serbocroatian there is 30 voices and 30 letters. So mapping is "1:1" and "on", mathematicaly bijection, and linguisticly it is called phonetic writing system. So all that letters/voices are unique, not modified. Write as you are speaking and read as it is written is true in Serbocroatian.

Other languages
Northern Sami also uses diacritics. I think that it isn't able to include all alphabets derived from the Latin, because Latin alphabet is employed in a lot of writing system, but is this article respecting the neutrality? Might we include all alphabets? Pasqual (ca) · CUT  15:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Footnote links are broken
In the "Basic Latin Alphabet" section, click the footnote on the word Latin. Doesn't work. Don't know how to fix without converting to new ref tag format. —Keenan Pepper 21:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Ñ is a letter in Spanish
It is said that Spanish has one of the alphabets with 26 letters, where it is completely false, as Ñ is considered a letter, placed after N in the alphabet, and NOT considered a variant. This makes 27 letters. —Jago84 13:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Plese read the section again. Nowhere does it say that the Spanish alphabet had exactly 26 letters, just that it has at least 26 letters, because it includes all of the classic roman alphabet. Later on the situations of ñ, ch, ll and even ç are described briefly at least once. Christoph Päper 13:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm agree with you, but Actually, the digraphs CH and LL are letters in Real Academia Española. Michael Peter Fustumum 23:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dutch alphabet
I deleted an edit by a user who had added ï, é, è, ö, ü, ë, ä to the Dutch alphabet. Someone else reverted my edit, giving the examples Oekraïne, oké, blèren, coördinatie, vacuüm, poëzie, Aäron. O.K., but some of those are clearly loanwords. Are these characters used for writing vernacular Dutch? If not, I don't think they should be listed in the alphabet. FilipeS 20:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * ï/ü/ë/ä/ö aren't characters in the Dutch alphabet, but the "trema" (umlaut) is used when there two vowels in a row and the combination would sound differently without a trema. For instance, the word "kopiëren" is written with a trema because the vowel combination "ie" would normally be a stretched i, while that word is pronounced "kopi-eren". The trema can basically be used on any vowel when it is necessary for clarity of the pronunciation, but is never considered to be part of the alphabet, as the sound of the letter does not change (i.e. ï still sounds like an i in "Oekraïne", but is not part of a diphthong, which it would be if it didn't have a trema). é and è are almost exclusively used in loanwords (particularly of French origin), or in more "informal" words (the example "oké" given above is the abbreviation O.K. written out fully, and "blèren" is an onomatopoeia roughly meaning crying/yelling, and there are not many of these words). Salaskan 22:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

In that case, I might include ä, ë, ï, ö, ü in the table, and leave out the others. And/or add a comment to the note about Dutch, explaining that the other characters are only used in loanwords and a few interjections. FilipeS 11:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Trema-letters aren't considered part of the 'normal dutch alphabet'. and I do not know of a [dutch] alphabet which includes it, lexiographic they are were their 'normal parts' are, you can also see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_alfabet (maybe translate it with some site). and the ij is also a letter I never ever have seen in a alphabet except maybe on primary school. and Salaskan is right about the 'french letters' (e.g. è). So the Dutch alphabet only has the 26 'normal' latin alphebet letters. H-J Wagenaar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.64.58.115 (talk) 17:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Rename?
This article should be renamed. "Alphabets derived from the Latin" is dreadful English. Any suggestions? FilipeS 15:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Roman alphabets (the Latin alphabet is that of the Latin language, the ones derived are called roman by several scholars), Roman alphabet, Roman alphabet variants, Roman alphabet variations … — Christoph Päper 18:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not with the name of the alphabet, but with the use of the article "the", which doesn't sound right to me. FilipeS 20:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's perfectly good and standard English, though it can mean two different things. The way it's understood here is with 'Latin' as an adjective and implied repeated noun 'alphabet' or equivalent: Alphabets derived from the Latin = Alphabets derived from the Latin one = Alphabets derived from the Latin alphabet. But also, in somewhat older style, we can say 'the Latin' with implied noun 'language': circus is a word borrowed from the Latin. In this sense, it is equivalent to omitting the 'the': Alphabets derived from the Latin = Alphabets derived from Latin. But this is not the sense we want, since they don't 'come from Latin' the way words do. 11:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

W in Swedish?
W is not a letter in Swedish, Swedish language are only use for foreign words.--Michael Peter Fustumum 08:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Aren't words such as "wow" and "webb" (Swedish spelling of "web") established enough nowadays even if they are loans? /Jiiimbooh (talk) 19:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I read that the word "webb" was the word that made the difference in having W as a Swedish letter. That word was considered an established word now. Usually loan words with W (usually english/german) have been changed to V, but not now. English language is too well known. "Wow" is not a word used in writing so much. What's used in talk does not influence the alphabet. -- BIL (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Basic Latin Alphabet confusions
OKay, I am slightly confused. The article is titled Alphabets derived from latin. However, in the basic latin alphabet table it has arabic row, with some arabic letters. But, this is quite misleading since it goes against the articles title that is: Alphabets DERIVED from latin. It is quite the opposite actually, latin is derived from old persian. The script used in Farsi closely resembled Arabic with additional letters (just like swedish and english). I dont think arabic should exist (in the same way farsi doesnt exist). What does everyone else think? --Waqas1987 (talk) 12:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The "Arabic" line is for Romanizations of Arabic. I agree that it should be better explained. Romanizations shouldn't be presented as the same thing as using of the Latin alphabet in regular orthography. Perhaps they shouldn't even be in the table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FilipeS (talk • contribs) 15:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

 * OKay, I have removed Arabic from the table since its not longer useful. However, if anyone wishes it to be in the table ( but it shouldn't be given the articles title), then a note should be added at least (which I added but later reverted by FilipsS). btw, latin is influenced from Old Persian and slight Arabic. --Waqas1987 (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I also think Revised Romanization of Korean should be removed too. I mean if u think that should be there, then u might as well add Romanization of Chinese, Japanese and every other language in the world. --Waqas1987 (talk) 19:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree. You can remove it. But we should add a note to the text saying that the Latin alphabet is also used in the Romanization of various languages. FilipeS (talk) 11:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Done, I added a short subsection in the Other alphabets based on the Latin alphabet section, regarding the romanization of other languages. --Waqas1987 (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Which letters should be included here?
For a specific language, should we include only letters used for words in that language, or should we include also letters only used for names ? It seems that there is a mixed standard in the table. For Swedish, Q and W as well as Ü and È are used only for names. Some native Swedish people have names with these letters. For foreign names in newspapers it seems to based on if there is a keyboard key or combination for it. Some discussions here hint that only official letters, not letters with diacritics should be included. One reason I read this article is that I previously worked with technical devices with a text display, supporting several languages. It would then be good to know which letters are needed to write a language. Please write a principle for this in the article. -- BIL (talk) 13:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * It's arguable. Some languages have an official alphabet (see Orthography and Collating sequence). This alphabet may or may not include rare letters used only in loanwords, and it may or may not include symbols with diacritics. I think it should be done according to what is considered standard and official in each language (which it isn't presently). However, if a certain language uses letters with diacritics, then there should be at least a note about that, even if those symbols are not included in the official alphabet.
 * There's still a lot of work to be done in this article. No rest for the wiki-ed. ;-) FilipeS (talk) 11:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

 * What's the @@@ criteria for inclusion? Mr 에멜무지로 has for example changed my edition of the letters in the Swedish alphabet. I am Swedish, he is Korean. According to the school Swedish uses A-Z,Å,Ä,Ö but not É since it is officially a decorated E. But if this is the principle then several languages must be changed. According to the inclusion principle we should include those that are used in the actual language. If we shall change the principle we should decide what to have. -- BIL (talk) 22:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't Swedish É only used in people's names? If we have to include alphabets in people's names, English alphabet has to be changed too because some people who are from Spanish-speaking countries uses Ñ in their names. If we include É in Swedish alphabet, Ñ has to be included in English alphabet. That's why I removed É in Swedish alphabet. -- (talk) 23:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have written the situation weeks ago in the Notes part of the article. É is used for well integrated loan words like idé and armé, although é is considered a modified e, while å, ä, ö are letters. Q, w, z, ü, è are used for names only, but exist in Swedish names. Á is a Swedish word but somewhat old-fashioned. -- BIL (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, then we should include Á, É, È, Q, Ü, W, and Z in Swedish alphabet. -- (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I have updated the table entries for Danish to match the official alphabet from Retskrivningsordbogen. Added: q, w, x, z - they are not used in indigenous words, but are authoritatively considered part of the alphabet. Q, x, and z will always be included if you ask a Danish child to recite the alphabet. W may or may not be; until relatively recently it was considered a variant of V (and collated as V). Now it's its own letter. Removed: é - an acute accent is allowed in certain places by Danish orthography, but not always on an E, and it is considered an orthographic element of its own and does not change the identity of the letter it decorates. –Henning Makholm 02:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

 * So the criteria for inclusion should the alphabet according to schoolbook, not including decorated variants. According to what I know of French and Dutch Language, A-Z should be included and all ë, é, è be dropped since they are accented variants ? But I am not the expert of these languages. I'm Swedish. The criteria varies a lot here. Right now all Swedish are included incuding accented variants used in family names and places only. For Danish the schoolbook is valid. For some other languages letters used only in some loan word are excluded. Etc. -- BIL (talk) 09:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

 * A useful general criterion for diacritics might be whether omitting the diacritic would be considered a misspelling (by appropriate authorities, or failing that, general consensus of literate native speakers). If there is a word, except proper nouns, that cannot be spelled correctly except with the accent, I'd consider the accented letter a part of the writing systems of that language.
 * The reason I would exclude proper nouns is that names can contain all sorts of foreign letters in general. For example, if someone named François moved from France to Sweden as an infant and received all of his education in Sweden, in Swedish, he would probably continue to spell his name with a cedilla even when writing Swedish, but that does not mean that Ç has suddenly become a Swedish letter. The spelling of family names in particular is often very conservative; an accent that is not used in general writing may stick in a name for many generation after the original immigrant brought it with him (or after some native thought that his name would sound cooler with some foreign signs in it). –Henning Makholm 01:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

 * A foreign personal name can include letters not in Swedish or Danish of course. It will be hard for François to convince Swedes, like in work, to write François instead of Francois, since Ç is not on the swedish keyboard. So forget foreign personal names. In Swedish é is used and e would be a misspelling. We write idé, armén, caféer, entré, allé, not ide, armen, cafeer, entre, alle. But é is officially a decorated e but still used and needed (for words originally loan words, but several hundred years old). What about that? --BIL (talk) 21:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

C in Swedish and Danish
To stop the edit war between me and User:Chinese has a V about the usage of C in Swedish and Danish, I will discuss this. It is true that Danish uses "kk" for words like Tjekkien. But Danish uses C for other words, as can be seen in large articles in Danish Wikipedia like da:Danmark. Examples: placeret, procent, centralmagt, Renæssancen, eksemplificeret, officiell, procedure, kompliceret and more. Swedish uses "ck" instead of "kk" which is enough reason to include it. Example words picked from a Swedish article Danmark include: cirka, december, dock, dricksvatten, ingick, lyckas, och, också, officiell, precis, procent, sträcker. --BIL (talk) 11:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

 * It is true that many Danish words are spelled with a C, but note that those are invariably loan words. Danish tends to preserve C in imported words whenever the C denotes an /s/ sound, whereas a C that represents /k/ will eventually be normalized to K. –Henning Makholm 02:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

German and the letter Q
I don't see why the letter Q isn't listed in the basic alphabet table for German. The headline comment says, "The Afrikaans, Catalan [6], Danish [9], Dutch [10], English [36], Filipino [11], Finnish [11], French [12], German [13], Interlingua, Kurdish, Malay, Norwegian [9], Slovak [24], Spanish [25], Swedish, Võro and Zulu alphabets officially contain all 26 letters at least. But not all are used in the vernacular, aside from foreign names and rare unassimilated loanwords."; however, several native or sufficiently assimilated words ("Qualle", "Quelle", "quer", "Qual", ...) have been using that letter since, according to Wiktionary, the Old High German stage at least. I propose the addition of that letter to the table. Similar argumentation is possible for the letter X ("Axt", axe), though I think it is considerably more rare in native words. --Blackhole89 (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)