text:
Talk:Lord Great Chamberlain

General discussion
Perhaps a list of those who have actually acted as Lord Great Chamberlain is in order, in addition to and separate from the list of those who have held the hereditary right to the office? john 07:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Emsworth has this:

 * Marjorie Wynn-Carrington B. Nunburnholme (d. 1968) - Charles John Wilson 3rd B. Nun. (d. 1974) - Ben Charles Wilson 4th B. Nun. (d. 1998) - Charles Wilson 5th B. Nun. (d. 2000) - Four Daughters (?)

 * Nothing to add on this. john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * L. Alexandra Palmer - (?)

 * No information here, either. john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)~
 * She died in 1955. john 23:49, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Ruperta Legge C. Dartmouth - L. Mary Cecilia Legge; L. Elizabeth Legge; L. Diana Legge; L. Barbara Legge; L. Josceline Gabrielle Legge (d. 1995) - ... Arthur Patrick Chichester E. Belfast

 * The Countess died in 1963.  Lady Diana Legge died in 1970. john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Judith Keppel C. Albemarle (d. 1928) - Rufus Arnold Alexis Keppel, 10th E. Alb.

 * As I noted on the page, the Countess of Albemarle predeceased her father. Her eldest son, Viscount Bury, held this twentieth of the Great Chamberlainship from 1928 to 1968.  The 10th Earl of Albemarle succeeded his father in the Great Chamberlainship in 1968, and his grandfather as Earl in 1979. john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Lady Victoria Weld-Forester - (?)

 * She died in 1966. Her son by her first husband, Sir Edward Legge-Bourke, succeeded to her share, and died in 1973.  His son William Legge-Bourke was born in 1939, and is presumably still alive. john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As to the Baroness Willoughby de Eresby, and her quarter of the Great Chamberlainship, does she have any children, or will her share descend to her cousin, Sir George Aird, 4th Bt, and his heirs? john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * Lady Willoughby de Eresby is childless at 69; there being issue of both her aunts, her fourth will divide into eighths, the junior likely passing to Sir George John Aird and his line and the senior to her other cousin, Carola Eloise Philippi, and then to her son by her first marriage, Capt. Sebastian St. Maur Miller.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

(My source, just to note, is . john 22:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC))
 * Who was the other sister of the 3rd Earl of Ancaster? I have only found the mother of the 4th Baronet Aird, Lady Priscilla who dies in 2002. VM 07:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC) edited: --VM (talk) 19:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * L.E. and john, I still can only find Lady Priscilla; please give evidence to what you call the senior part.

Will Lorraine Wilson really be Lord Great Chamberlain under the next monarch, although she's female and a commoner (Is it right to suppose that she will get a title when taking the office or could she even sit in the house of lords without? What sort of title could it be?)- The article should have a remark about these questions, because it could become relevant in the not so far future.. (Xerxes M.F)

 * There were similar cases in the past, where a female was the holder of that part that executes the office, but her husband or eldest son was Deputy Lord Great Chamberlain. And I think if that male person holds no peerage title a title will be granted similar to the barony of Gwydir, so either a life barony or a hereditary barony; but I think it will be rather a life peerage than an hereditary title. VM 08:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * VM - is it impossible for a woman to exercise the office? Isn't it more likely at this point that Ms. Wilson will herself be granted a title and exercise the office herself?  Previously, women couldn't sit in the house of lords, but now they can. john k 11:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think, as it is now regularly possible for women to be granted a life peerage and sit in the House of Lords themselves, any female holder of the respective part of the office of Lord Great Chamberlain will be granted a life peerage and execute the office herself, as will her heirs during the same reign. --VM (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The Lord Great Chamberlain is, like the Earl Marshal, ex officio a sitting member of the House of Lords, thus the seat goes with the office. Upon the demise of the current Sovereign the Marquess of Cholmondeley will not continue to be a sitting member of the House unless granted a life peerage, whilst the next Lord Great Chamberlain will get the seat reserved for that Officer.  No life peerage is required. -mush01 13:44, 07 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Next question: If Lorraine Wilson dies before the next monarch and without issue (as it actually looks like; she's even not married..)who will then the be Lord Great Chamberlain, her sister or her husband? Or will it pass to the next in line to the Lord Great Chamberlainship? Xerxes M.F. 28.9.2006
 * If she dies without issue, I think, her heirs will be her sisters (and their heirs) equally, so their part of the office will be increased to 1/60. --VM (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Plural
Is the plural for this really "Lords Great Chamberlain"? I mean, for "Attorneys-General" and what-not, "attorney" is clearly the noun, and "general" an adjective describing it. But the main title here is "Chamberlain". IN fact, the title is really simply the "Great Chamberlain", with the lord haphazardly added in because at some point someone decided that a "Lord" needed to be added to the beginning of pretty much all offices. So, is this really correct? john 05:18, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I think I have to agree with you here, John. I'd definitely say "Lord High Stewards", "Lord High Chancellors", "Lord High Treasurers", "Lord Great Chamberlains", "Lord High Constables" and "Lord High Admirals", since they are definitely primarily Stewards, Chancellors, Treasurers, etc. However, the other offices are more difficult. Is a Lord President of the Council a Lord who happens to be presiding over the Privy Council or a president of the Privy Council who is lordly? I'd probably be inclined to say the latter, but I'm not sure. Is a Lord Privy Seal a Seal? Surely not - he's a Lord who is in charge of the Privy Seal, so should more than one of them be Lords Privy Seal? It would make sense logically, but might look out of place with the others. Then of course you have the Lords of the Admiralty, who were styled together as the "Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty", which seems to be the result of indecision over whether they were Lords or Commissioners (the same still presumably applies to the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury). If we were to take these as the basis of general pluralisation, as they are the only ones of whom there are ever more than one (there would be no official reference to more than one Lord High Chancellor, for instance, because there's only ever one of them), then we would have Lords High Chancellors and Lords Great Chamberlains. Oh, it's all too complicated - the only way to know definitively is probably to ask the Palace. Proteus 13:35, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...The Lord Privy Seal is really the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, isn't he? So Lords Keepers of the Privy Seal? I think that could be abbreviated as Lords Privy Seal. Certainly "Lord Privy Seals" sounds wrong. I'm wary of the Lord part, since it's generally been added on later. It used to be you'd simply have the President of the Privy Council, the Keeper of the Privy Seal, the High Chancellor, the High Steward, the Marshal, the High constable, the Steward of the Household, the Commissioners of the Treasury and the Admiralty, and so on. The "Lord" started out as simply an honorific. Asking the palace always seems good...too bad they don't have an email address, or anything...and they probably wouldn't actually know, anyway. "Lords High Chancellors" certainly sounds bizarre. (To note, the Department for Constitutional Affairs has a list of "Lord Chancellors", but there are numerous Hansard's references to "Lords Chancellor". john 19:14, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My original impression was that the honorific gets a plural. For instance, I thought that one would write, if there were two persons named Smith, "Messrs Smith," rather than "Mr Smiths". And just a couple of questions: firstly, is it known that Lady Alexandra Palmer was living until 1955? Secondly, during the times when the earldom of Oxford was forfeit, was there anyone who performed the functions of the LGC? -- Emsworth 20:17, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

I've just received a reply from Buckingham Palace after asking them specifically about the correct plural of Lord Great Chamberlain (to be frank, I was testing to see how trivial of a question they would spend time replying to). I offered in my letter that my opinion was that the correct plural of Lord Great Chamberlain ought to be Lords Great Chamberlains, as "Lord" and "Chamberlain" are both noun-subjects in the title. The Palace replied that they "think [my] guess is the correct one." So they stopped short of declaring The Answer, but it seems that if they ever needed to use the plural, "Lords Great Chamberlains" would be what they'd use. 2605:A000:1210:C0EF:F4E2:7351:25BC:9883 (talk) 17:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

As to the first question, a posting on ATR from Louis Epstein, who is, while utterly insane, very knowledgeable about the peerage, is the source for Lady Alexandra Palmer dying in 1955. Burkes's entry on the Barons Carrington would probably have the details, though - I'm in the library, so I'll go check. I don't know about the second question, but presumably it was given to somebody else (and, in fact, it's rather likely that many Earls of Oxford did not actually exercise the dignity). Neither Complete Peerage nor Haydn's Book of Dignities gives the full list, however. I shall look into this further, but I'm not sure where to look. john 22:23, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sadly, according to Mr Epstein, "Burke's does not explore her [Lady Alexandra Palmer's] issue." -- Emsworth 22:26, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yep...it does not (or, at least, Burke's peerage does not). It does confirm 1955 as her year of death, however.  I will now go check out Burke's Landed Gentry to see if, perhaps, Colonel Palmer is among the families listed there. john 22:32, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * While you're there, would you mind checking if the 5th Baron Nunburnholme's daughters are listed?

 * Yeah, I'll look. As to the issue of Lady Alexandra Palmer, it is in the Landed Gentry (which, unfortunately, is from 1972):

 * Lady Alexandra Palmer married Colonel William Llewellen Palmer in 1910. They had four sons: Peter Michael George Llewellen Palmer (b.1911), who was k.i.a. in WWII in 1942; Anthony William Allen Llewellen Palmer (b.1912), who married the Hon. Veronica De Saumarez in 1945 (no children); Julian Llewellen Palmer (b.1914, k.i.a.1941); and Lt Col. Timothy Llewellen Palmer (b.1917), who married Cynthia Graham Menzies and had, as of 1972, three sons - Julian Neil (b.1963), Charles Anthony (b.1967), and Michael Malcolm (b.1971), and one daughter, Alexandra Joan (b.1964).  More information is available here:, It would seem that Anthony died childless in 1990.  Tim died 1979, and Julian died unexpectedly in 2002, leaving a son Nicholas.  So, we can tentatively say that this share was held by Anthony Llewellen Palmer from 1955 to 1990, then by Julian until his death in 2002, and and is currently held by Nicholas.  Whoo...on to the Nunburnholme's... (have you accounted for all the Dartmouth coheirs, by the way?) john 22:56, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Okay...It is the 4th Baron Nunburnholme whose daughters succeeded to his shares. The 4th Baron died in 1998. His daughters, according to the 1999 Burke's, are Lorraine Mary Charmiane Nicole (b.1959); Tatiana Ines Alexandra (b.1960), m.1988 Nigel L. Dent, and has two sons, Frederick, and Harry Barnaby Nigel; Ines Monica (b.1963), m.1988 Anthony Richard Leslie Garton and has one son, Tristan John Leslie; and Ysabel (b.1963). The 5th Baron Nunburnholme was the brother of the 4th Baron, and is also dead, succeeded by his son. But the 6th Baron does not have a share in the Great Chamberlainship. john 23:07, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Alright, as to Dartmouth, we have the 7th Earl and Lady Ruperta Wynn-Carington, have...

 * 1) Lady Mary Findlay (1908-2003)-Commander Jonathan Findlay (b.1933)
 * 2) Lady Elizabeth Basset (1908-2000)-Bryan Basset (b.1932)
 * 3) Lady Diana Matthews (1910-1970)-James Hamilton-Russell, her son by her first marriage (b.1938)
 * 4) Lady Barbara Kwiatkowski (b.1916, seemingly alive)-Jan Kwiatkowski is her son and heir-apparent (b.1945)
 * 5) Josceline, Marchioness of Donegall (b.1918, seemingly still alive)-Earl of Belfast is her heir-apparent.

Hey, have we got pretty much all of it taken care of, then? 130.91.119.213 23:19, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * According to Thepeerage.com, Lady Donegall died in 1995. It would seem, then, that all is well, except for the death date of Timothy Palmer. -- Emsworth 23:24, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

A change: Marjorie, Baroness Nunburnholme died in 1953, not in 1968. (My source for the former was, I think, Louis Epstien. My source for 1953 was Cambridge -- Emsworth 00:24, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * My source is both Debrett's AND Burke's,agreeing on the year and the latter giving specific date she died...I doubt they made this up.--Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com

For the purposes of the table: is it known who died first, David Viscount Bury, or the 5th Marquess of Cholmondeley? Both died in 1968; sources suggest that Lord Bury died on 8 November, but I don't know about Lord Cholmondeley. It would seem, however, more likely that Lord Cholmondeley died earlier, because Lord Bury died in the later part of the year. -- Emsworth 00:37, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

The 5th Marquess died on 16 september, according to. john 00:52, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The future Lady Donegall has been shown on the table as Lady Templemore. I would suggest that the highest title be used throughout, so that the reader is not confused as to whether the two are the same or not- the matter is confusing enough already. -- Emsworth 01:21, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

She did not become Marchioness of Donegall until 1975. I think the title which the highest title held for the period under discussion should be used, although this may be confusing. john 01:39, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Very well. We'll have to change Lord Linconshire, who was previously Lord Carrington. Furthermore, we have the Dowager Ladies Aveland and Cholmondeley. Separately, I forsee a problem at 1990. Firstly, we may not know when Timothy Palmer died. Secondly, the same problem that occurred in 1968 might happen again. Both the 6th Marquess of Cholmondeley and Anthony Palmer died in 1990. -- Emsworth 01:41, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

Yes...and we don't know when Mr. Palmer died, and I've no idea when, in that year, he died. Perhaps someone has access to a more recent edition of Burke's Landed Gentry than I, and can provide this information. ETA: Perhaps you're right about just using the highest title. It would certainly be simpler. john 01:43, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Timothy Palmer died February 1, 1978. --Wik 20:51, May 2, 2004 (UTC)

- Earl of Oxford contends that the 13th Earl was forfeit in 1485- was his title of LGC not also taken away? -- Emsworth 01:25, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...he was forfeit in 1475, and restored in 1485. (The 13th Earl was a leading Lancastrian, and led the Earl of Richmond's army at Bosworth Field). john 01:30, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Another correction needed
The genealogy in Burke's for the old Earls of Oxford makes clear that the 1626 change was the point at which the heirs in the female line got the office,not the more distant male heir as stated in the article.(The male line heirs were the Veres,who died out with the 20th Earl.It seems to have gone to the 17th Earl's younger sister rather than his elder sister or his daughters(all of whom have issue surviving to this day).But,if it had gone to heirs general in the first place the heir of line of Aubrey de Vere temp Henry I is the Duke of Northumberland! (Not Lady Strange,who claims to be his heir in her Debrett's entry).--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

Benefits of the Office?
As the rights to the office become more diluted with passing generations (we now have persons with a 1/100th claim), I wonder if there is a salary or other benefit (other than prestige) attached to the office that is shared-out each year? I guess I'm asking why holders of miniscule shares bother keeping them instead of waiving them in favor of a more senior claimant. If, say, the right to an invitation to the next coronation comes with each tiny claim on the office, I can see why a 1% holder would cling on, but absent some perquisite like that, I wonder if there is any advantage to the minor claimants to hang on. --StanZegel  (talk) 16:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It's not shared out each year. The person who possesses it possesses it for an entire reign.  So the Marquess of Cholmondeley will hold it through the reign of Elizabeth II.  Then it will go to Lorraine Wilson or her heir for the next reign, then to Lord Cholmondeley or his heir for the next reign after that, then to Lady Willoughby de Eresby or her heir for the next reign after that, then to Julian Palmer or his heir for the reign after that, and so forth.  Every other reign it goes to the Cholmondeley heir, because he has a 50% share.  Half of the reigns when it doesn't go to the Cholmondeley, it goes to Willoughby de Eresby, due to her 25% share.  And so forth. john k 17:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, I understand the rotation, but I'm wondering if there are any perks that make an undivided interest in the office to be valuable. Thus while someone else may be the incumbent during a reign, if there were a salary it is possible that the salary may be shared.

 * Not that I'm aware of. All the people with a non-exercising share possess is the right to transmit their share and possibly exercise it in a future reign.  The whole thing is completely ridiculous.  I hope the Committee of Privileges is proud of themselves about the ridiculous mess they created.  Also, as far as I understand it, the various shares are effectively entailed, so the owner of a 1% share can't sell out. john k 02:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Keeping page updated
I've just updated the tables to reflect the facts that:
 * 1) Julian Palmer died in 2002 and his share passed to his only son Nicholas
 * 2) Bryan Ronald Basset is the elder son of Lady Elizabeth Basset
 * 3) Lady Mary Findlay died in 2003

The number of heirs will probably remain relatively stable during the next several years. Dent, Garton, Findlay, Basset, Hamilton-Russell, Kwiatkowski, Donegall, Albemarle, Legge-Bourke, all have male heirs; Lorraine and Ysabel Wilson are unmarried. Should Cholmondeley die without an heir of the body, as seems likely, his half share will be split among his sisters Lady Rose Cholmondeley (no heir), Lady Margot Huston (male heir), and Lady Caroline d'Erlanger (male heir). Should Willoughby de Eresby die under like circumstances, her share will be split between Aird and Miller. Choess (talk) 22:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Concern about the Cholmondeley half being split seems obsolete, for the time being; since this comment was written Cholmondeley has married and his wife has given birth to twin sons (in 2009). Gothamscholar (talk) 19:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Cromwell?
There are sources, like http://books.google.com/books?id=OKlCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=cromwell+%22lord+high+chamberlain%22&source=bl&ots=QCjbeIvTLF&sig=6bKBPGD8H41EyWtc2jt4zJLTCfg&hl=en&ei=HxlLS4CTPJHRlAed3viJDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cromwell%20%22lord%20high%20chamberlain%22&f=false, that say that thomas Cromwell was appointed Lord Great Chamberlain shortly before he fell from favor. Should he be inserted into the table (I guess between the earl who died in 1540 and his heir)? --Hickoryhillster (talk) 13:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Lorraine Wilson?
I emailed the Lords Information Office about a few things, and among their replies was: "Should the Queen die the next person to hold the position of Lord Great Chamberlain would be the Honourable Rupert Carrington the son of Lord Carrington." Maybe the list of joint office-holders needs to be reviewed, but I'm not in a position to do it. 152.132.13.1 (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

 * The House of Lords Information Office is absolutely wrong if they say that. Lord Carrington's grand-uncle, the marquess of Lincolnshire (and 3rd Baron Carrington), held a 1/4 share in the chamberlainship.  He had no sons, so when he died, the Carrington title passed to his brother, the 4th Baron Carrington, Lord Carrington's grandfather.  Lincolnshire's share in the chamberlainship, however, ought to have passed to his five daughters, each of whom got a 1/20 share.  We can see that this is what happened because when Lord Lincolnshire died in 1928, he was actually the acting Lord Great Chamberlain for George V.  The office went next not to his brother, the new Lord Carrington, but to his son-in-law, Lord Lewisham, who was presumably acting as a deputy for the co-heirs, his wife and her sisters.  Lorraine Wilson is apparently the eldest daughter of the 4th Lord Nunburnholme, whose grandmother was Lord Lincolnshire's eldest daughter.  I can't find much clear evidence of her existence, though; everything I can find on her seems to come back to this article as a source.  What is clear is that in the next reign the Lord Great Chamberlain will come from among the co-heirs of Lord Lincolnshire or their representatives.  It should also be clear that whoever this may be, it's not Lord Carrington or his son.  john k (talk) 22:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Well, given that the article cites nothing as to the current rotation of the office, I'd certainly consider the House of Lords itself to be rather authoritative. Not that they can't be wrong, but it's the best thing we have to work with that isn't circularly cited. I'm saying this not to start an argument or anything, but to spur someone to find cites for Lorraine Wilson and the rest. Then maybe we can let the Lords know that they're wrong :) 99.155.95.183 (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the order we give has nothing to support it; in the next reign the LGC should go to someone among the coheirs of Lord Lincolnshire, but I'm not sure why we've decided that it's Lorraine Wilson. Other than that, informal responses to inquiries by the Lords Information Office can't be viewed as reliable when they directly contradict widely available and published information.  The way that the LGC shares have proceeded in the past is well-established.  In 1779, for instance, the fourth duke of Ancaster died, leaving two sisters and an uncle, who became fifth duke.  If the LGC passed the way the LIO seems to think it does, then the LGC should have passed to the uncle, but in fact it passed to the fourth duke's sisters, who split it.  There's a somewhat compllicated, but well-established, algorith for how the lord great chamberlainship descends; it goes to the last holder's heir general.  If the last holder has multiple co-heirs (i.e., no sons, but daughters; no brothers, but sisters; etc.), then that person's share of the chamberlainship is divided among the co-heirs.  The marquess of Lincolnshire had five daughters and a brother.  When he died, his share passed to his daughters, not to his brother, and this can be demonstrated, as I said before, by the fact that his son-in-law became acting Lord Great Chamberlain after his death.  The Lords Information Office has no idea what they're talking about if they think that Lord Carrington possessed a share of the Lord Great Chamberlainship.  I'll try to find sources on this; I suspect that most of the peerage guides have a discussion of this. john k (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The next heir to the Lord Great Chamberlainship should -not- be Lorraine Wilson. Ms. Wilson is the senior heir-general of the eldest daughter of the Marquess of Lincolnshire, the Baroness Nunburnholme; however, the Baroness Nunburnholme already held the Great Chamberlainship between the death of her father in 1928 and the death of King George V in 1936, with her brother-in-law the Viscount Lewisham serving as her deputy. Logically, it should be the line of the second daughter of Lord Lincolnshire that is next to have its turn as LGC, skipping over the four Wilson sisters. In other words, it should be Nicholas Llewellyn Palmer (or, if for some reason he is not given a life peerage, his representative) who takes over from the Marquess of Cholmondeley after Queen Elizabeth passes away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.175.44 (talk) 07:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It will be neither Loraine Wilson nor Nicholas Llewellyn Palmer. It will be a deputy of the whole Carington share and it is expected that this will be Lord Carrington. This FOI is very interesting on this topic: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/543850/response/1308464/attach/3/FOI%203165%20Response.pdf Also, the deputy has to be of the rank of a knigth or higher (so, no need to be a peer, but only peers as LGC would have the rigth to sit in the Lords, but there is no need for the LGC to have a seat in the Lords), and I personally don't belive, that any peerage or knigthhood would be created by a 21st century Gouverment for a JHLGC.--Theoreticalmawi (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

They really should just pass a short Act of Parliament retrospectively making the LGCship pass to the heir general without division of the last holder. (Altering the remainder of the Barony of Willoughby de Eresby along the same lines, ensuring that it doesn't fall into abeyance and that accordingly the LGC will always be a peer, would also be helpful.) If even the House of Lords can't work out what's going on, I think that's a sign that the situation is somewhat out of control. On topic, I think we should ignore the HoL here. First, it's not the HoL, all we've received is the opinion of some (unidentified, but probably clueless) underling. Secondly, official responses from official bodies in the UK to do with such matters (Buckingham Palace, etc.) unfortunately have a long, glorious and documented history of being utterly wrong. Proteus (Talk) 10:46, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

what happened in 2009?
Am I blind? I see no difference between the lists labeled "2003–2009" and "2009–". —Tamfang (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * William Legge-Bourke, who held a 1/20 share, died and was succeeded in that share by his son Harry Legge-Bourke. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"or representative"
Of the fourteen shareholders listed in the rotation chart at the bottom of the article, eight are tagged with "(or his/her representative)". Why these and not the other six? Why are Palmer (listed five times) and L.Wilson (listed twice) so marked only once each? —Tamfang (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is to mark those who cannot, as of now, sit in the House of Lords by any title themselves, as the holder of either a life peerage or hereditary peerage (and being elected) - or in other words, as prior of the House of Lords Act 1999, as the holder of any peerage title. (I'm not sure what the reformation of the House of Lords says about the office of Lord Great Chamberlain in later reigns, as the office is now held by the Marquess of Cholmondeley; so his right to sit in the house, besides as Lord Great Chamberlain, would not be questioned if he were one of the elected hereditary peers.) So, I think, they will have to name a deputy who can sit in the House of Lords in his/her own right (besides the question of being elected), or to be created a peer themselves. Some items in the list just lack this addition, it seems. I'm not sure if this is the reason, though. And I hope you can understand what I mean.(lol) --VM (talk) 20:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

A question
What is the reason that for instance the Cholmondeley line of succession is never split up between several heirs, while some of the other lines are often split between several co-heirs? There should be an explanation, or a link to an article where this is explained, in the text of this article. --213.236.196.39 (talk) 13:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

 * It's because (as I misunderstand it) in English common law of inheritance there is no seniority between sisters. Each split occurred when the succession (of the whole, or of a share) passed to two or more sisters.  It happened that in the Cholmondeley line there was always a male heir, so no further division. —Tamfang (talk) 17:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the explanation. This must mean that inheritance of this office is different from that of the monarch's, since the monarchy is never split between several sisters. But then again, Lord Great Chamberlain is hardly an office as important as the Crown.--213.236.196.39 (talk) 01:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

 * This very question was discussed in Parliament during George VI's reign, because the case of Elizabeth and Margaret was unprecedented (except when the succession was disputed on other grounds as well). The conclusion was that no, the Crown (like a Scottish peerage) is not subject to such division.  Maybe the Act of Settlement 1701 has wording compelling such a conclusion. —Tamfang (talk) 04:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Sword of state
I have removed the reference to the LGC 'technically' carrying the Sword of State at openings of parliament, since this assertion was unattributed, and I believe it was infact the prerogative of the Lord High Constable, an office now in abeyance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barabbas1312 (talk • contribs) 18:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

1540-1553
The original article says the office returned to De Vere right after Cromwell. According to the cited source, it didn't. It went through several other figures (Sussex, Hertford, etc.) and only returned to the De Vere line in 1553. I made the correction here, but probably should be done on the individual pages as well. Walrasiad (talk) 23:44, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Bryan Basset
It seems that Bryan Basset has died 2010: Could someone please update the article? --Intimidator (talk) 14:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Opera hat (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank You! --Intimidator (talk) 22:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

David Basset
David Basset (1961-2010) died in 2010, and appears therefore to have been succeeded by his next younger brother Michael James Basset (b.1963) (see Debrett's Peerage, 2015, Earl of Leicester). Could someone please kindly update the article?(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 02:14, 20 November 2015 (UTC))
 * Done. Opera hat (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Lord Great Chamberlain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140106031947/http://www.debretts.com/people/royal-family/the-royal-household/great-officers-of-state.aspx to http://www.debretts.com/people/royal-family/the-royal-household/great-officers-of-state.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928130935/http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/index1088.htm to http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/index1088.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:26, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Chart
Can we have the chart back please which showed exactly how many monarchs would have to die for each holder to exercise the role? Wolfita (talk) 14:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

 * No, becauce it was based on false assumptions. As far as I knwo, it will be rigth now only: 1. Lord Carrington 2. Marquess de Cholmondeley 3. Baroness Willoughby de Eresby (or maybe a deputy) 4. Marquess de Cholmondeley and so on.--Theoreticalmawi (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Llewellen Palmer
This source is not in agreement with the tree of the joint hereditary lord great chamberlains: http://www.thepeerage.com/p8070.htm#i80692

Timothy Llewellen Palmer is not a son of Lady Alexandra Llewellen Palmer, but Julian Llewellen Palmer is a son of Brig. Anthony Llewellen Palmer. Does anyone know more about it? --2A02:908:C62:FB60:B0CD:270:6510:7BF4 (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lord Great Chamberlain


text:
Wget

GNU Wget (or just Wget, formerly Geturl, also written as its package name, wget) is a computer program that retrieves content from web servers. It is part of the GNU Project. Its name derives from "World Wide Web" and "get". It supports downloading via HTTP, HTTPS, and FTP.

Its features include recursive download, conversion of links for offline viewing of local HTML, and support for proxies. It appeared in 1996, coinciding with the boom of popularity of the Web, causing its wide use among Unix users and distribution with most major Linux distributions. Wget is written in portable C, and can be easily installed on any Unix-like system. Wget has been ported to Microsoft Windows, macOS, OpenVMS, HP-UX, AmigaOS, MorphOS, and Solaris. Since version 1.14, Wget has been able to save its output in the web archiving standard WARC format.

History
Wget descends from an earlier program named Geturl by the same author, the development of which commenced in late 1995. The name changed to Wget after the author became aware of an earlier Amiga program named GetURL, written by James Burton in AREXX.

Wget filled a gap in the inconsistent web-downloading software available in the mid-1990s. No single program could reliably use both HTTP and FTP to download files. Existing programs either supported FTP (such as NcFTP and dl) or were written in Perl, which was not yet ubiquitous. While Wget was inspired by features of some of the existing programs, it supported both HTTP and FTP and could be built using only the standard development tools found on every Unix system.

At that time many Unix users struggled behind extremely slow university and dial-up Internet connections, leading to a growing need for a downloading agent that could deal with transient network failures without assistance from the human operator.

Robustness
Wget has been designed for robustness over slow or unstable network connections. If a download does not complete due to a network problem, Wget will automatically try to continue the download from where it left off, and repeat this until the whole file has been retrieved. It was one of the first clients to make use of the then-new  HTTP header to support this feature.

Recursive download
Wget can optionally work like a web crawler by extracting resources linked from HTML pages and downloading them in sequence, repeating the process recursively until all the pages have been downloaded or a maximum recursion depth specified by the user has been reached. The downloaded pages are saved in a directory structure resembling that on the remote server. This "recursive download" enables partial or complete mirroring of web sites via HTTP. Links in downloaded HTML pages can be adjusted to point to locally downloaded material for offline viewing. When performing this kind of automatic mirroring of web sites, Wget supports the Robots Exclusion Standard (unless the option  is used).

Recursive download works with FTP as well, where Wget issues the  command to find which additional files to download, repeating this process for directories and files under the one specified in the top URL. Shell-like wildcards are supported when the download of FTP URLs is requested.

When downloading recursively over either HTTP or FTP, Wget can be instructed to inspect the timestamps of local and remote files, and download only the remote files newer than the corresponding local ones. This allows easy mirroring of HTTP and FTP sites, but is considered inefficient and more error-prone when compared to programs designed for mirroring from the ground up, such as rsync. On the other hand, Wget does not require special server-side software for this task.

Non-interactiveness
Wget is non-interactive in the sense that, once started, it does not require user interaction and does not need to control a TTY, being able to log its progress to a separate file for later inspection. Users can start Wget and log off, leaving the program unattended. By contrast, most graphical or text user interface web browsers require the user to remain logged in and to manually restart failed downloads, which can be a great hindrance when transferring a lot of data.

Portability
Written in a highly portable style of C with minimal dependencies on third-party libraries, Wget requires little more than a C compiler and a BSD-like interface to TCP/IP networking. Designed as a Unix program invoked from the Unix shell, the program has been ported to numerous Unix-like environments and systems, including Microsoft Windows via Cygwin, and macOS. It is also available as a native Microsoft Windows program as one of the GnuWin packages.

Other features

 * Wget supports download through proxies, which are widely deployed to provide web access inside company firewalls and to cache and quickly deliver frequently accessed content.
 * It makes use of HTTP persistent connections where available.
 * IPv6 is supported on systems that include the appropriate interfaces.
 * SSL/TLS is supported for encrypted downloads using the OpenSSL or GnuTLS library.
 * Files larger than 2 GiB are supported on 32-bit systems that include the appropriate interfaces.
 * Download speed may be throttled to avoid using up all of the available bandwidth.
 * Can save its output in the web archiving standard WARC format, deduplicating from an associated CDX file as required.

Authors and copyright
GNU Wget was written by Hrvoje Nikšić with contributions by many other people, including Dan Harkless, Ian Abbott, and Mauro Tortonesi. Significant contributions are credited in the AUTHORS file included in the distribution, and all remaining ones are documented in the changelogs, also included with the program. Wget is currently maintained by Giuseppe Scrivano, Tim Rühsen and Darshit Shah.

The copyright to Wget belongs to the Free Software Foundation, whose policy is to require copyright assignments for all non-trivial contributions to GNU software.

License
GNU Wget is distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License, version 3 or later, with a special exception that allows distribution of binaries linked against the OpenSSL library. The text of the exception follows:

Additional permission under GNU GPL version 3 section 7

If you modify this program, or any covered work, by linking or combining it with the OpenSSL project's OpenSSL library (or a modified version of that library), containing parts covered by the terms of the OpenSSL or SSLeay licenses, the Free Software Foundation grants you additional permission to convey the resulting work. Corresponding Source for a non-source form of such a combination shall include the source code for the parts of OpenSSL used as well as that of the covered work.

It is expected that the exception clause will be removed once Wget is modified to also link with the GnuTLS library.

Wget's documentation, in the form of a Texinfo reference manual, is distributed under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, version 1.2 or later. The man page usually distributed on Unix-like systems is automatically generated from a subset of the Texinfo manual and falls under the terms of the same license.

Development
Wget is developed in an open fashion, most of the design decisions typically being discussed on the public mailing list followed by users and developers. Bug reports and patches are relayed to the same list.

Source contribution
The preferred method of contributing to Wget's code and documentation is through source updates in the form of textual patches generated by the diff utility. Patches intended for inclusion in Wget are submitted to the mailing list where they are reviewed by the maintainers. Patches that pass the maintainers' scrutiny are installed in the sources. Instructions on patch creation as well as style guidelines are outlined on the project's wiki.

The source code can also be tracked via a remote version control repository that hosts revision history beginning with the 1.5.3 release. The repository is currently running Git. Prior to that, the source code had been hosted on (in reverse order): Bazaar, Mercurial, Subversion, and via CVS.

Release
When a sufficient number of features or bug fixes accumulate during development, Wget is released to the general public via the GNU FTP site and its mirrors. Being entirely run by volunteers, there is no external pressure to issue a release nor are there enforceable release deadlines.

Releases are numbered as versions of the form of major.minor[.revision], such as Wget 1.11 or Wget 1.8.2. An increase of the major version number represents large and possibly incompatible changes in Wget's behavior or a radical redesign of the code base. An increase of the minor version number designates addition of new features and bug fixes. A new revision indicates a release that, compared to the previous revision, only contains bug fixes. Revision zero is omitted, meaning that for example Wget 1.11 is the same as 1.11.0. Wget does not use the odd-even release number convention popularized by Linux.

Popular references
Wget makes an appearance in the 2010 Columbia Pictures motion picture release, The Social Network. The lead character, a somewhat fictionalized version of Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg, uses Wget to aggregate student photos from various Harvard University housing-facility directories.

Notable releases
The following releases represent notable milestones in Wget's development. Features listed next to each release are edited for brevity and do not constitute comprehensive information about the release, which is available in the NEWS file distributed with Wget.
 * Geturl 1.0, released January 1996, was the first publicly available release. The first English-language announcement can be traced to a Usenet news posting, which probably refers to Geturl 1.3.4 released in June.
 * Wget 1.4.0, released November 1996, was the first version to use the name Wget. It was also the first release distributed under the terms of the GNU GPL, Geturl having been distributed under an ad hoc no-warranty license.
 * Wget 1.4.3, released February 1997, was the first version released as part of the GNU project with the copyright assigned to the FSF.
 * Wget 1.5.3, released September 1998, was a milestone in the program's popularity. This version was bundled with many Linux based distributions, which exposed the program to a much wider audience.
 * Wget 1.6, released December 1999, incorporated many bug fixes for the (by then stale) 1.5.3 release, largely thanks to the effort of Dan Harkless.
 * Wget 1.7, released June 2001, introduced SSL support, cookies, and persistent connections.
 * Wget 1.8, released December 2001, added bandwidth throttling, new progress indicators, and the breadth-first traversal of the hyperlink graph.
 * Wget 1.9, released October 2003, included experimental IPv6 support, and ability to POST data to HTTP servers.
 * Wget 1.10, released June 2005, introduced large file support, IPv6 support on dual-family systems, NTLM authorization, and SSL improvements. The maintainership was picked up by Mauro Tortonesi.
 * Wget 1.11, released January 2008, moved to version 3 of the GNU General Public License, and added preliminary support for the  header, which is often used by CGI scripts to indicate the name of a file for downloading. Security-related improvements were also made to the HTTP authentication code. Micah Cowan took over maintainership of the project.
 * Wget 1.12, released September 2009, added support for parsing URLs from CSS content on the web, and for handling Internationalized Resource Identifiers.
 * Wget 1.13, released August 2011, supports HTTP/1.1, fixed some portability issues, and used the GnuTLS library by default for secure connections.
 * Wget 1.14, released August 2012, improved support for TLS and added support for Digest Access Authentication.
 * Wget 1.15, released January 2014, added—https-only and support for Perfect-Forward Secrecy.
 * Wget 1.16, released October 2014, changed the default progress bar output, closed, added support for libpsl to verify cookie domains, and introduced—start-pos to allow starting downloads from a specified position.
 * Wget 1.17, released November 2015, removed FTP passive to active fallback due to privacy concerns, added support for FTPS and for—if-modified-since.
 * Wget 1.18, released June 2016, resolved the issue, and added the "--bind-dns-address" and "--dns-servers" options.
 * Wget 1.19, released February 2017, added new options for processing a Metalink file; version 1.19.1 added the—retry-on-http-error option to retry a download if the Web server responds with a given HTTP status code.
 * Wget 1.20, released November 2018, added  for more reliability and ,   options for recursive FTP retrievals.

Wget2
GNU Wget2 2.0.0 was released on 26 September 2021. It is licensed under the GPL-3.0-or-later license, and is wrapped around Libwget which is under the LGPL-3.0-or-later license. It has many improvements in comparison to Wget, particularly, in many cases Wget2 downloads much faster than Wget1.x due to support of the following protocols and technologies:

 * HTTP/2,
 * HTTP compression,
 * parallel connections,
 * use of If-Modified-Since HTTP header,
 * TCP Fast Open.

GWget
GWget is a free software graphical user interface for Wget. It is developed by David Sedeño Fernández based on the GNOME software stack. GWget supports all of the main features that Wget does, as well as parallel downloads.

Cliget
Cliget is an open source Firefox addon downloader that uses Curl, Wget and Aria2. It is developed by Zaid Abdulla.

Clones
There exist clones of GNU Wget intended for embedded systems, which are often limited in memory and storage. They support its most basic options, usually limited to downloading.
 * OpenWrt uclient-fetch
 * BusyBox wget
 * ToyBox wget

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wget


text:
Talk:Nettle

2003–2007
This entry should really only treat the genus Urtica with references to the Nettle family Urticaceae and to other unrelated groups often called nettles. The material here at present should go back into the family entry, which should not be a redirect. I should be able to get to this in the next few days. WormRunner 07:14, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Basic change done WormRunner 06:49, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've replaced "Some cooks throw away a first water to get rid of the formic acid" with "Some cooks throw away a first water to get rid of the stinging compounds", as nettles don't infact use formic acid for their sting. see Stinging nettle--212.183.134.130 15:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Nettles a source of protein? My ass! --Publunch 22:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone please verify the medical section. It contains some suspicious claims -- specifically, that nettles can be used as suppositories or to treat thrush. These both sound like practical jokes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.212.141 (talk) 04:38, April 26, 2007

a small change
Under 'Safety' I've changed 'infected' to 'affected'. The stung area is affected and not infected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Popytrewq (talk • contribs) 17:56, June 8, 2007

Contradiction
Does grabbing nettles quickly and firmly to crush the stingers work on not? The nettles (folklore) says it's a myth and neither article cites a source for the contradictory claims. -- Gordon Ecker 04:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It's most likely possible to grasp a nettle without being stung if someone has very tough skin on their hands, but this means nothing if it can't be verified. I've searched around a little, and can't find anything to substantiate this as anything but folklore. And if that's the case, the section on it in nettles (folklore) should probably be expanded? Menthaxpiperita (talk) 05:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The stingers are positioned so that one can grab the nettle from the bottom upwards without getting stung. If you just grab it without the upward motion you are going to get stung. I used to do it when i was younger. --82.181.230.17 (talk) 21:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I was taught to pick individual leaves by "pinching" the up-side of the leaf since there are fewer stinging hairs there. However, when I showed my wife how to do this, she got stung. We attribute this to the fact that I have thicker calluses than her; perhaps this is the reason that people with more experience picking nettles are able to do so without getting stung. Nettles should be fully grown in my area in a a few months; I'll try to remember to test this. 71.37.25.28 (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Please remember that original research is not considered an acceptable source of information on Wikipedia. We need a link to a reliable source to back up this claim. Also, I have added a 'citation needed' tag for this claim in the article. (Is there a reason that there wasn't one already there?) Menthaxpiperita (talk) 06:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here. Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories, but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns, please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 21:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate content
There is a lot here which seems to be specific to Urtica dioica and not to the wider topic of Nettle - which here seems to equate to the genus Dioica - although why that is isn't made clear. Specifically its uses in cooking and its medicinal uses which I believe relate exclusively to U. dioca. I therefore propose to remove all the dioica specific text and integrate it into the Stinging nettle page and remove it from here unless there is good evidence that those things mentioned are true across the genus. Comments welcome here. As an aside it would also be more precise and less confusing to rename Stinging nettle to Urtica dioica to avoid some of the ambiguities - but I guess that we can leave that till later Velela (talk) 23:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * God idea. Be bold and just do it! Cacycle (talk) 05:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Various things about nettles
I don't want to just jump in here and start changing the Nettles article and I don't want people to think I'm spamming, but... I'm a retired Biology teacher who has spent quite a few years doing re-enactment as a 17th Century Herbalist. I've been accumulating material on plants that were used for food, medicine and magic and have finally got around to writing something about them. One of my first pages is on Nettles. I think there is some material there that would fit well into this wikipedia page. e.g. you don't have much on the use of nettles fibres. I have paragraphs about making string and rope from them, with pictures of the process and the product. The URL is a Squidoo one, which means I cannot put it here. If you want to have a look please go to squidoo.com and look for the Stinging-nettle-Urtica-dioica page. A search for nettles should display it. I'm known as Pan narrans there as well.

I'm happy to waive any copyright if you want to lift paragraphs verbatim or use any of the photographs. If you do use any material I would appreciate a link though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pan narrans (talk • contribs) 21:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Fruit
The other day i was walking down the street near a bush of nettles and noticed something odd. I looked closer and noticed the nettle has a small red berry on it. How Is this possiable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.232.155 (talk) 21:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

 * In the UK (including Northern Ireland) that would most commonly be from a Cotoneaster bush, Rowan tree or Holly tree growing above it dropping berries.  Velella  Velella Talk 22:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Nope it was actualy growing on it and was there the following day i can upload a picture if you like? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.232.25 (talk) 14:48, 5 October 2010

 * Please do.  Velella  Velella Talk 14:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I can think of several possibilities:
 * As Velella has suggested, a berry has fallen from another plant: it may be that the berry was firmly attached by its flesh having dried to the nettle, making it appear that it had grown there.
 * The plant was not a nettle at all, but something else which does have a berry (can't think of any likely candidates for Britain or Ireland though).
 * It's some kind of gall growing on a nettle.
 * It was an animal (such as a leaf beetle), which looked like a berry. Unlikely if it was there the next day.
 * Where was it in the world? Where was it on the plant? Were there any others on the plant?  Richard New Forest (talk) 14:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The OP's IP geolocates to Ireland. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Problem with article title
The taxobox and most of the text on the page are at odds with the article title "nettle" and the first sentence of the page: "Nettles are plants that bear stinging hairs or trichomes on their stems and leaves, and belong to the families Urticaceae, Loasaceae, Hydrophyllaceae and Euphorbiaceae.[1]". There is already a page called Nettle (disambiguation), where a large number of plants are listed, along with other uses of the word. Many of the plants in that list look like Urtica dioica, but do not have stinging hairs. The question arises therefore as to whether this page needs to be split into two, one about the genus Urtica, and one about the "plant with stinging hairs" definition. Another option, to move the name "nettle" to Urtica dioica would be problematic because many other plants in the genus Urtica are also called nettles. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 * It's quite clear to me that Nettle (disambiguation) is correct that "nettle" has a very wide application. It's also quite clear that the article is hopelessly confused: why does it have a list of Urtica species if it's not exclusively about this genus? At least in the UK, "nettle" is absolutely not synonymous with "stinging nettle"; e.g. Lamium species are commonly called "nettles" although the more botanically minded try to insist on "dead nettles". My suggestions are:
 * Move "stinging nettle" to "Urtica dioica". Although "stinging nettle" most commonly refers to U. dioica, actually only U. dioica subsp. dioica has stinging hairs; U. d. subsp. galeopsifolia doesn't, which is why the species is called "Common Nettle" in British floras.
 * Create an article on the genus "Urtica", using material from here.
 * Move what's left in this article to "Plant with stinging hairs".
 * Actually the article is so misleading, that (2) needs to be done immediately. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been WP:BOLD and made a start on Urtica as a separate article. This article needs a lot of work to make it a coherent account of plants with stinging hairs. Material applying only to Urtica or to Urtica dioica subsp. dioica (the stinging nettle) needs to be moved to the right article. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that moving this article to a different title is not the best solution: the material in it belongs in several different articles (Stinging plant, Urticaceae, Urtica, Urtica dioica). I propose to create a new article Stinging plant (shorter than "Plant with stinging hairs"), and then gradually move material out of this article to the four mentioned above. Finally "Nettle" can redirect to the disambiguation page. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

✅ The material here has been split into Stinging plant and Urtica; some should probably be split again into Urtica dioica or its subspecies, but the sourcing is weak in some places and it's difficult to tell what taxon is meant, so the genus article seems the best first location. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I'm currently working my way through the hundreds of articles that linked to "Nettle", changing the links to one more appropriate. So far I haven't found a single link which should have gone to the article as it was, i.e. to a general meaning of nettle or to Stinging plant. All should have been to either Urtica dioica or to Urtica (which includes cases where the species isn't clear). Peter coxhead (talk) 18:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nettle


text:
Siberian sand plover

The Siberian sand plover (Anarhynchus mongolus) is a small wader in the plover family of birds. The International Ornithologists' Union split the Tibetan sand plover from the lesser sand plover and changed its vernacular name to Siberian sand plover. The specific mongolus is Latin and refers to Mongolia, which at the time of naming referred to a larger area than the present country.

Taxonomy
The Siberian sand plover and the Tibetan sand plover were previously considered to belong to the same species known as the "lesser sand plover", consisting of five races within the species complex. However, a study published in 2022 suggested that the "mongolus" group (currently identified as the Siberian sand plover) within the lesser sand plover is actually the sister group of the greater sand plover. Additionally, the "atrifrons" group (representing the Tibetan sand plover) is the sister group of the monophyletic group formed by the "mongolus" group and the greater sand plover.

This means that the lesser sand plover is paraphyletic. Therefore a taxonomic revision was needed. The authors suggested new scientific and common English names for them. The large East Asian forms mongolus and stegmanni are currently identified as the Siberian sand plover, Anarhynchus mongolus; and the Tibetan Plateau form is now known as the Tibetan sand plover, Anarhynchus atrifrons, which includes the three races atrifrons, pamirensis and schaeferi.

IOU accepted the split and renaming of the lesser sand plover in 2023.

Description
This chunky plover is long-legged and long-billed. Breeding males have grey backs and white underparts. The breast, forehead and nape are chestnut, and there is a black eye mask. The female is duller, and winter and juvenile birds lack the chestnut, apart from a hint of rufous on the head. Legs are dark and the bill black.

In all plumages, this species is very similar to the greater sand plover, Charadrius leschenaultii. Separating the species may be straightforward in mixed wintering flocks on an Indian beach, where the difference in size and structure is obvious; it is more difficult to identify a lone vagrant to western Europe, where both species are very rare. The problem is compounded in that the Middle Eastern race of greater sand plover is the most similar to the lesser. The lesser usually has darker legs, a white forehead, and a more even white wing bar than the greater.

Distribution
It breeds discontinuously across bare coastal plains in north-eastern Siberia, with the Mongolian plover in the eastern part of the range; it has also bred in Alaska. It nests in a bare ground scrape, laying three eggs. This species is strongly migratory, wintering on sandy beaches in east and southeast Asia.

Ecology
The Siberian sand plover feeds on insects, crustaceans and annelid worms, which are obtained by a run-and-pause technique, rather than the steady probing of some other wader groups. This species takes fewer steps and shorter pauses than the greater sand plover when feeding.

The flight call is a hard trill.

The Siberian sand plover is one of the species to which the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) applies.

Identification
Size is one of the factors distinguishing a Siberian sand plover from a greater sand plover, with the Siberian being slightly smaller. However, it is not easy to rely on size alone especially when seen individually. The length of the bill is another distinguishing feature, with the Siberian generally having a shorter bill compared to a greater. The colour of the legs in a Siberian sand plover is generally darker, ranging from black to grey, while in a greater sand plover it is much paler, ranging from grey to yellowish.

title: Siberian sand plover


text:
Micropolyphony

Micropolyphony is a kind of polyphonic musical texture developed by György Ligeti, which consists of many lines of dense canons moving at different tempos or rhythms, thus resulting in tone clusters. According to David Cope, "micropolyphony resembles cluster chords, but differs in its use of moving rather than static lines"; it is "a simultaneity of different lines, rhythms, and timbres".

Differences between micropolyphonic texture and conventional polyphonic texture can be explained by Ligeti's own description: "Technically speaking I have always approached musical texture through part-writing. Both Atmosphères and Lontano have a dense canonic structure. But you cannot actually hear the polyphony, the canon. You hear a kind of impenetrable texture, something like a very densely woven cobweb. I have retained melodic lines in the process of composition, they are governed by rules as strict as Palestrina's or those of the Flemish school, but the rules of this polyphony are worked out by me. The polyphonic structure does not come through, you cannot hear it; it remains hidden in a microscopic, underwater world, to us inaudible. I call it micropolyphony (such a beautiful word!). (Ligeti, quoted in )."

The earliest example of micropolyphony in Ligeti's work occurs in the second movement (mm 25–37) of his orchestral composition Apparitions. He used the technique in a number of his other works, including Atmosphères for orchestra; the first movement of his Requiem for soprano, mezzo-soprano, mixed choir, and orchestra; the unaccompanied choral work Lux aeterna; and Lontano for orchestra. Micropolyphony is easier with larger ensembles or polyphonic instruments such as the piano, though the Poème symphonique for a hundred metronomes creates "micropolyphony of unparallelled complexity". Many of Ligeti's piano pieces are examples of micropolyphony applied to complex "minimalist" Steve Reich and Pygmy music derived rhythmic schemes.

title: Micropolyphony


text:
World Expo 88

World Expo 88, also known as Expo 88, was a specialised Expo held in Brisbane, the state capital of Queensland, Australia, during a six-month period between Saturday, 30 April 1988 and Sunday, 30 October 1988, inclusive. The theme of the Expo was "Leisure in the Age of Technology", and the mascot for the Expo was an Australian platypus named Expo Oz.

The A$625 million fair was the largest event of the 1988 Bicentennial celebrations of the arrival of the First Fleet in Sydney Harbour. Expo 88 attracted more than 15,760,000 visitors who bought tickets worth A$175 million. The event achieved both its economic aims and very good attendances, was successfully used to promote Queensland as a tourist destination and it spurred a major re-development at the South Brisbane site. The core feature of the site were the international pavilions. Many of the exposition's sculptures and buildings were retained by various entities around the state and are still in use or on display today.

Origins
The first thoughts of a world expo for Brisbane began soon after James Maccormick, architect for the Australia Pavilion at Expo '67, Expo '70 and Expo '74, was commissioned to do an urban renewal study for Kangaroo Point in the early 70s. It occurred to Maccormick that an exposition would be an ideal catalyst for such a redevelopment, and he later hosted meetings with prominent Queensland business persons and government representatives to discuss the idea. With the Australian Bicentenary looming in 1988, other Australian capitals sought means by which to celebrate the event, including hosting of a Universal Exposition or the Summer Olympic Games. Sydney and Melbourne both made representations to the Federal Government for matching dollar for dollar funding for a Universal Exposition in the 1988 bicentennial year, however, citing the costs of the new Parliament House in Canberra, also to be opened in the same year, these proposals were knocked back. But 12 years later the 2000 Summer Olympics were held in Sydney, and Brisbane will be the 2032 Summer Olympics host city.

Brisbane, under Premier Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen, then developed Maccomick's earlier proposal to host an international-scale exposition, however at no cost to the Australian taxpayer, a world's first 'free enterprise' World Exposition, which the Federal Government rubber stamped.

With federal representation, at the December 1983 Bureau International des Expositions (BIE) General Assembly, Brisbane won the right to hold the 1988 World Exposition, as a specialised international exposition. Immediately, the Brisbane Exposition and South Bank Redevelopment Authority was formed with Sir Llewellyn Edwards, State Deputy Premier, at the helm. Maccormick later was appointed as Joint Chief Architect of the Expo, under the architectural firm Bligh Maccormick 88.

Construction
World Expo 88 occupied a mixed usage 40-hectare (98.8 acres) resumed (acquired/taken, as in "Eminent Domain") parcel of land on the South Bank of the Brisbane River, opposite the city's central business district. For many years this mainly industrial area had been largely derelict. Stanley Street was permanently excised between Melbourne Street and Vulture Street while Grey Street was reinstated after the showground was demolished. The creation of Expo, along with the recent construction of the Queensland Cultural Centre, helped to revive the area. Construction was coordinated by Brisbane-based Thiess Contractors Pty Ltd.

Around 100 works of sculpture were either commissioned, purchased or borrowed for World Expo 88 at a cost of $25 million. Large sun sails were erected over the site to provide shade from the hot Queensland climate. These became an icon of the Expo, becoming an element of Expo's sun-sails logo. Two thousand kilometres of telecommunication wire were laid during construction of the site.

A A$4.5 million 88-metre (289.37911 feet) symbolic tower for the Expo was constructed, called The Night Companion (also known as "The Skyneedle"), which featured a gold and copper dome black spire top, with a xenon laser beam eye that scanned the Brisbane horizons each Expo evening up to 60 km away.

The main entry gate was the Melbourne Street gate at the northern end of the campus, located on the current Grey Street alongside South Brisbane Station.

Monorail
A Von Roll MkII monorail was constructed for World Expo 88 to take visitors quickly around the Expo site. Costing A$12 million, it consisted of 2 stations at either end of the site, 2.3 km of track and 4 nine-carriage trains. The route included going through the Queensland Pavilion, across the Pacific Lagoon and beside the Brisbane River. The system was able to carry 44,000 passengers per day. Following Expo, one of the trains and some track joined the existing Sea World Monorail System at Sea World on the Gold Coast. The other three trains were bought back by Von Roll and are now running at the German theme park Europa-Park in Rust since 1995.

The Fair
A ticket to the fair allowed entry to the World Expo Park amusement park at the same location. Although originally intended to be a permanent feature, the park remained open for only one year after Expo had closed. The fair was open daily from 10am to 10pm.

The Expo sunsails and the Expo tower Night Companion can be seen clearly here, as well as the monorail. Some of the rides of the World Expo Park can be seen in the background. The 'cubistic flotilla' can be seen in the foreground. World Expo 88 was opened by Queen Elizabeth II on Saturday, 30 April 1988 to much fanfare. The fair attracted more than 18 million visitors, including staff and VIPs, more than double the predicted 7.8 million, and was considered a turning point in the history of Brisbane, which had recently successfully hosted the 1982 Commonwealth Games. With Expo 88 Queensland had transformed itself from a northern backwater into Australia's "most progressive state".

The Commissioner General for World Expo 88 was Sir Edward Williams (who was also the Chairman for the also very successful 1982 Commonwealth Games.The Chairman and Chief Executive former State Government Minister, Sir Llewellyn Edwards was appointed in February 1984. The General Manager was Bob Miniken and the Entertainment Director was Ric Birch (who would soon become one of the greatest experts in Olympic ceremonies and large-scale events in the world). Landscaping at the site was done by Brisbane landscape architect Lawrie Smith. The landscaping was based on nine precincts and used more than 150,000 temperate and tropical plants.

Pavilions

Despite late entrants into the Exposition due to domestic political measures, World Expo 88 attracted some 100 pavilions, from 52 governments, of which 36 were from international-level, and numerous corporate participants. Major western and European nations were represented such as the United States, the Soviet Union (last representation at a World Exposition), France, West Germany (also last representation at a World Exposition), the United Kingdom, Canada, Spain and Greece, as well as major Asian countries such as Singapore, Thailand, Nepal, Pakistan, China, Japan, Sri Lanka, South Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines, and amongst others. Close neighbouring countries, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea were also represented.

State-level and multi-lateral organisations included the six Australian states, the United Nations, the European Union, Vatican City, three American states (Hawaii, California and Alaska), one Japanese prefecture (sister state of Queensland, Saitama Prefecture), and one Japanese city (Brisbane's sister city Kobe City).

Corporate pavilions included IBM, Ford, Fujitsu, Queensland Newspapers, Australia Post, Cadbury Chocolate, Suncorp, and the Queensland Teachers Credit Union. NASA and Universal Studios hosted outdoor exhibits, with models of the Space Shuttle and Apollo program, as well as the car KITT from the TV series Knight Rider. Also having its own pavilion was the official Australian TV partner of the Expo, Network Ten, via its Queensland station TVQ, whose news studios were located there for public tours and during the Expo also switched channel frequencies in September (from channel 0 to channel 10) in line with the other state channels.

The most expensive pavilion was Japan (A$26 million), followed by the Queensland Pavilion (A$20 million) and the Australia Pavilion (A$18 million). The largest Pavilions were also Queensland, followed by Australia then Japan.

High-definition television received its Australian premiere at the Japan Pavilion, and the text-based Internet at the Swiss Pavilion. At the University pavilion the world's longest lab experiment was on display. The pitch drop experiment, which features tar pitch slowly dripping through a funnel at a rate of nine drops in 81 years, actually made an unseen drop while on display.

The most popular pavilion was New Zealand with its animated Footrot Flats show and glow worm cave followed by Australia, with its special effects 'Dreamtime Theatre'; Queensland, with its popular 180-metre long people mover ride through Queensland of the present and the future; Japan with its Japan Pond and Garden and hi-tech displays; Switzerland, with its artificial snow ski slope and cable car ride; and Nepal, with its 3-level hand-crafted Nepalese Peace Pagoda.

Architecture
For the most part, pavilions were housed in pre-fabricated units constructed by the expo authority, with the exception of the Nepalese Peace Pagoda, of Nepal, and aspects of the Kingdom of Thailand Pavilion, amongst others. The Australia Pavilion and Queensland Pavilion, side by side, were also custom-made, with the exterior of the Australia Pavilion notably in the shape and colours of Uluru (Ayers Rock). The Queensland Pavilion was designed by Robin Gibson.

Theming

As well as the popular platypus mascot Expo Oz, designed by Disney's Imagineering Division, there were several themed initiatives that promoted World Expo 88, most notably the Expo's two interchangeable brands (as noted above): one, a boomerang-styled '88' on a wire frame globe, and the colourful sunsails logo, which superimposed aspects of the Expo's entertainment on a relief of one of the Expo's popular sun sails (designed by Ken Cato, of Cato Purnell Partners). There was also a new weekly theme which allowed special-interest groups to entertain.

The logos were used extensively throughout the Expo site as well as souvenirs, and a costume Expo Oz could be seen as part of the daily parades, shows, and other variety performances. Over 500 items of souvenir memorabilia were made using Expo Oz's image. Expo Oz also featured in extensive international tours in the lead-up to the Expo, to Europe, the US and Japan.

The theme song of the Expo, 'Together We'll Show the World!' by Frank Millward and Carol Lloyd, was also an important rallying point in promoting the Expo in the lead-up to and during phases of the fair, and captured a sense of the excitement of the Expo.

The colourful theme for the Australia Pavilion, which became synonymous with the hosting of the Expo with Australia as host nation, was designed by prominent Australian artist Ken Done, and featured huge playful colourful letters making up the word Australia in an Australia Pavilion Entrance set, and Exit set, with the entrance set a stack of nine, 3x3, some 2.1 metres high each, and the exit set, in a line of nine letters, some 5.6 metres high each. These letters became a very popular photo opportunity for the Expo, and the theme was also found on the brightly coloured Australia Pavilion uniforms also.

5 heritage-listed buildings in South Brisbane were refurbished and repurposed for Expo 88. They were retained after its closure and can still be seen today: Plough Inn, Ship Inn, Central House, Collin's Place Spaghetti House, and South Brisbane Municipal Library. The Expo House building on Sidon Street, which housed 'Club 88' and administrative offices, has been incorporated into today's Griffith University South Bank Campus.

Entertainment
The $38 million entertainment program featured acts from all over Australia and the world at a variety of custom-made performance venues on the World Expo 88 site from the 10,000-seat spectacular open-air River Stage (for national day events, opening and closing ceremonies and large-scale events), the 850-seat piazza for circus, marching band, acrobatics, magic and mime, and the smaller-scale amphitheatre for national day ceremonies and laser shows. The River Stage was also the venue for the popular evening fireworks and large-scale laser show, set to music, each Expo evening at 10 pm.

Big international and Australian names were a feature at World Expo 88. Perennial Australian favourites such as Icehouse, Little River Band, Mental as Anything, The Cockroaches, Joe Camilleri and the Black Sorrows, John Farnham, Julie Anthony, Simon Gallaher, Wickety Wak and Jon English, were regular performers, as well as concerts by international artists such as Jerry Harrison (of Talking Heads), Julio Iglesias, John Denver, Donny Osmond, Cher, Phyllis Diller, and a wide variety of international theatre, opera, and classical music at the adjoining (separate ticket admission) World Expo on Stage program at the Queensland Performing Arts Complex.

The exposition averaged 100,000 visitors a day, with highest day of attendance being 184,000 visitors on 29 October 1988, the last day before the closing ceremony.

Network Ten was the official television broadcast partner for Expo 88.

At the closing ceremony of World Expo 88 at the River Stage, a concert showcased all the Expo's entertainers singing and dancing. The concert finished up with the Australian pop-folk band, The Seekers, singing one of their songs "The Carnival Is Over" at the very end of the celebrations, in what has become an Australian tradition. As Judith Durham refused perform for the Expo '88 Closing Ceremony celebrations (due to her sentiments of what happened to the aborigines), Australian soprano Julie Anthony joined the group as the lead vocalist in her stead. During the events of the Expo's closing ceremony, the Night Companion's light beam was stilled. Sir Llewellyn Edwards concluded the Expo with the words "With the Prime Minister, Mr Premier, my Lord Mayor, distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen – as the Prime Minister indicated, the carnival is now over, Expo '88 has come to a close.....Thank you for all that have contributed and may the light of World Expo 88 never really fade." . A massive fireworks display, the longest in Australia at the time, soon followed, with a burning icon of the World Expo 88 sun sails logo set alight on the Brisbane River.

The Nepalese Peace Pagoda and South Bank Parklands
After the end of World Expo 88, various contingency plans were mooted as to possible future developments. One proposal was for a second central business district area to be developed, however this proposal was rejected. A second proposal, incorporating extensive parklands, boutique retail, as well as low-medium residential development, was later accepted, and four years after the closure of World Expo 88, the site was reopened as South Bank Parklands, which is managed by the South Bank Corporation, a State Government corporation.

The only remaining trace of the Exposition on the former site is the Nepalese Peace Pagoda, part of the Nepalese representation, a traditional three-storey handmade wooden replica of a Pagoda in Kathmandu. The popular boardwalk eateries at the southern end of the Expo 88 site were replaced by River Quay Green and modern restaurants in 2011.

Riverstage and the Courier Mail Piazza
Two of the most popular performing arts venues from World Expo 88 took on a new form at the conclusion of the Expo as Riverstage (at the new venue in the City Botanic Gardens), and the Courier Mail Piazza (formerly called the Suncorp Piazza) at the South Bank Parklands. These two outdoor performing arts venues today welcome visitors to a variety of performing arts genres.

The Skyneedle
The Skyneedle (or "Night Companion") is 88 m-high and beams light skywards with a visibility of more than 60 km during special events.

The Skyneedle, which was originally built for World Expo 88, was to be relocated to Tokyo Disneyland after the Expo. Hairdresser and local celebrity Stefan bought the rights and moved it 500 m from its original location at South Bank to his corporate headquarters in South Brisbane, where it remains a local landmark.

Sculpture park
During World Expo 88, the park was filled with 90 sculptures, one of the largest and most prestigious displays the country had ever hosted. Sixteen pieces were commissioned for the event, while others were on loan. Also the 88-strong white fibreglass 'Human Factor' sculpture series which captured the whimsy of persons in day-to-day life, were also put up for private sale, with many of them being purchased for shopping centres and arcades. Some of the works that were for sale have been purchased by the Brisbane City Council and are on display at various places in the city today, most notably Gidon Graetz's work Mirage in the Brisbane Arcade and American sculptor Jon Barlow Hudson's work Morning Star II located in the City Botanic Gardens. A sectional model or maquette of Jon Barlow Hudson's artwork Paradigm is on display outside State Library of Queensland.

One can view and take part in a Heritage Walk of some of the major works at the World Expo 88 Art Heritage trail at Celebrate 88.

The Japan Pond and Garden
The Japan Pond and Garden from the Japanese Government Pavilion was gifted to the City of Brisbane at the end of the Expo and was re-located to the Mount Coot-tha Botanic Gardens.

Australia Pavilion letters
The colourful, large Australia Pavilion letters, designed by Australian artist Ken Done were synonymous with the success of the Expo, and were purchased by Shaftesbury Citizenship Campus at the end of the Expo, for their Burpengary Campus. The end of Expo till 2008 the letters could be viewed along the Bruce Highway near Burpengary as one approached Brisbane City, a reminder of their successful role at World Expo 88. In 2018, the letters were restored and placed at the Caboolture Historical Village.

World Expo Park – Brisbane Convention & Exhibition Centre
World Expo Park, the Expo's theme park located adjacent to the Expo site, was intended to be a permanent legacy of the Expo at its conclusion. Citing lack of patronage, however, it closed down just a year after the Expo closed its doors. The site of World Expo Park was re-developed into the Brisbane Convention & Exhibition Centre.

Queensland Pavilion
The Queensland Pavilion was purchased by the Gateway Baptist Church, and now stands on their Mackenzie premises.

Victorian Pavilion
The Victorian Pavilion was purchased privately and moved to 77 Shore St West, Cleveland, where it is known as Redland Trade Centre.

Foundation
On 30 April 2004, sixteen years after World Expo 88's official opening, a non-government not-for-profit commemorative entity for the Exposition was launched, named Foundation Expo '88, which had its web presence at foundationexpo88.org. The Foundation based its activities at the Nepalese Peace Pagoda from the Expo, including a weekly Guided Tours program "Pagoda on Sundays", and hosting at the Pagoda first level a commemorative museum display of memorabilia from Expo, which is still maintained to this day.

For the 10th Anniversary of Foundation Expo '88 in 2014, the Foundation was re-branded into one new entity "Celebrate 88!", which hosts its website at http://www.celebrate88.com/, and free guided tours of the Pagoda by request. Visitors and questions welcome.

Expo Gold
The Golden Penda tree (Xanthostemon chrysanthus) was selected as the theme plant for Expo 88. Cuttings of the tree, which is native to north Queensland, were taken from a superior form from a garden in Brisbane and planted in flower in Brisbane to create a 'Sea of Gold'. In late autumn, the tree can still be seen in flower in gardens and lining streets across Brisbane. The tree is also the native floral emblem of Cairns.

Q150 Icon
In 2009 as part of the Q150 celebrations, Expo 88 was announced as one of the Q150 Icons of Queensland for its role as a "Defining Moment".

Anniversaries
Celebrations for the 20th anniversary were held at South Bank Parklands during May 2008. Celebrations included a charity dinner on 9 May at the Great Hall of the Brisbane Convention & Exhibition Centre, and a community day of celebration on 10 May. It featured entertainment from the Expo, fireworks, interpretive displays and themed walks, and a Suncorp Spirit of Expo Staff Breakfast, also attended by then Lord Mayor of Brisbane Sallyanne Atkinson, and Expo Chair and CEO Sir Llewellyn Edwards.

2013 saw commemorative activities which included a special retrospective exhibition on World Expo 88 entitled "Light Fantastic: Expo 88 Rewired", a special family fun day at the former Expo 88 site, Southbank Parklands, where a special Plaque was also unveiled.

The Brisbane City Council arranged several initiatives to as part of the 30th anniversary celebrations. A special closing event ceremony was held at the Caboolture Historical Village, where the restored Ken Done Australia Pavilion Signs completely restored were unveiled on 28 October 2018.

title: World Expo 88