text:
User talk:Theresa knott/archive 1

Hi Theresa, welcome to Wikipedia! Be warned, it is highly addictive. There are lots of resources around by way of help and guideline pages, but it can take a while before you find the one you want. Naming conventions and Manual of Style are handy, then there is Help and you can always ask at the Village pump. Don't be afraid of making the odd mistake, there are any number of others eagerly waiting for a chance to correct it!

Need to know anything, just ask. Hope to see you stick around!

Best - Tannin 08:28 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Redirects start with a hash "#" -- Tim Starling 11:59 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * I tried that but I kept getting a numbered list instead. Theresa knott

 * That's because after you create a redirect, you get sent to a page with the string "&redirects=no" in the URL. This is a "feature" put in the software to confuse newcomers.
 * [smiles]

 * To see your redirect working, use your address bar to delete that part of the URL. BTW, I've reformatted your talk page slightly to show you how talk pages are usually done – more indenting and not so many HRs. Oh, and by the way, welcome to Wikipedia :) -- Tim Starling 12:41 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * I see. So if I ever want to get rid of a redirect I can add that sring to the url in order to edit the redirect out? Theresa knott

 * If you click on a link and find yourself redirected to another page, at the top it will say (Redirected from .....) If you click on the link you will be taken to the page with "&redirects=no" in the URL, and then you can edit it. Mintguy

 * To edit a redirect, use the "What links here". If you go to a redirect page from there, you'll get the "nolink" code in the URL -- Tarquin 23:07 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC) Redirect

Hi Theresa. As an ex-chemist, I was impressed by the Benedict's article. Do yopu have list page that points to similar items? jimfbleak
 * Thanks! I don't really have a list page yet because there aren't enough similar items but the links from school science technician contain some similar articles written by myself or collegues of mine. Theresa knott

Hi there Theresa. I notice you have been adding some great articles on science experiments. You might also be interested in another project which is aiming to put together a free science textbook, at http://www.renaissoft.com/april/cgi-bin/wiki.pl. It's much like Wikipedia but taking a textbook style approach rather than our encyclopedia style of writing. Enchanter
 * Thanks I'd definately like to contribute, although from a first glance I can see that it's really early days!.

Hi Theresa, the How to draw a diagram with Microsoft Word is really nice. However, we usually don't have "Howtos" on the Wikipedia, as this is not encyclopedic content. There's a HowTO wiki project at, if I remember correctly. --Magnus Manske 13:02 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the link but there are already plenty of how to pages on wikipedia. See How to and How-to.

ought to be corrected to, but I don't know if a regular page move will move the picture, too. You want to do this, in case you need to just upload it again with the correct name? -- John Owens 07:59 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's really necessary. The article has the correct spelling, and this way it's unlikely that any will accidentally upload an image with the same name as this one Theresa knott 08:36 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)

Lime refering to calcium, ETYMOLOGY: Middle English lim, from Old English lim, birdlime.

Does that help? -- RTC 08:13 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes a bit. Thanks Theresa knott

The formatting at User:Theresa knott/sand box looks fine to me. Tuf-Kat

I like what you're doing over at How to keep image file sizes as small as possible. Thanks for that page! -- John Owens 15:16 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. If I can keep others from making the same mistakes as I have then I will be happy.Theresa knott 15:32 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Theresa, you are right about ultimate fate of the Universe; it was an error from my part, but saying that I changed it endless seems somewhat exaggerated: if I remember correctly, I changed it only one time, yesterday. -- Looxix 20:54 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Theresa! I wanted to thank you deeply for your contributions to the Simple Science Wiki, and to apologize for my non-responsiveness there for some time - because of work and other duties, I was unable to give it the attention it deserves. I hope you'll still be interested! -- April 20:52 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Theresa, thanks for reading my seismometer article. I'll have to work on my 'universal reference frame' I meant that the mass stays stationary with respect to the 'universe' and the earth moves. I think I picked that up in an 'Einstein for Idiots' book, maybe. ps. I'd use my real name if I wasn't working as a real earthquake expert for a nuclear power plant company. Zeizmic 17:55 22 May 2003 (UTC)

I've added angle of attack. Well spotted!

Regarding How to keep image file sizes as small as possible - you're absolutely right, I got there from the Village Pump page. I must admit, I wondered why none of the stuff I mentioned was covered there :) Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Be glad to help out with the real metapage. -- Wapcaplet 21:00 30 May 2003 (UTC)

Dear Zoe, Dear Theresa, please appologize, I never wanted to hurt anybody, I did not mean it this way. I lost, nobody took my cause. We had just some troubles endorsing the wikipedia in schools and for teacher and endorsing it with a funding possibility (like we did once with fishbase.org ). It was just a suggestion from an anonymous user account, which are anyway reverted immediately routinely. I could have understand the ado if I would have used my sysop power, which I always used only on owr own stuff. I still think it would be good to have some balance (for example was the fish article tiny compared to the plenty we found on the pages we suggested for an edit, and if images than of both gender would be fair. Good luck with the fine project wikipedia

from Uwe Kils ("sailor")Kils 15:20 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hi. I noticed that you uploaded an image called Image:Vikingship.jpg but did not link it to any article. Which is a bit of a shame as it's a nice image. It seems to me that it could go on the viking article as long as there was some explanation of what the image was, i.e. who painted it, when, etc.

Also when uploading an image you really should put some copywright information on the description page. If you took the photo yourself say so, or if you know who took the photo and they gave your permission to give it to wikipedia, say that. Theresa knott 11:01 4 Jun 2003 (UTC) -

Hey Theresa!

Thank you very much for your communication. You must be a very stark soul to take up communication with the uncivilized wiki-Vikings amounst the battle and storm raging on the seas around us. But we saw that already when you stepped in as the devil's advocat for us, repeating what we really said we do. There once was a link to the viking ship, on an article we created to explain those worriers where we come from, what we do and who is sailing with us.

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Vikings&oldid=996698

There was also a beautiful picture (of which we do have the copyright), showing two of us warriors on the beach of what was called vineland in the Old Days when our grand grand ... grandmother Freydis took the American coast for the Norse (what some stuck and stupid aristrocrat British coined Vikings). But then our parents got nervous and said, the Web is a too dangerous place for us girls andtoddlers to crusade on and recommended this image to be put up for election for deletion by the group. But just wait, once we are grownups we will be back with our face visible.

Regarding the viking ship image Image:Vikingship.jpg there erupted a fight amoungst us vikings on the copyright copyleft no copyright issue. Our head viking (chief) ruled: Proove it who has it and we will publish it again. He ordered to flag the page down, so nobody can find the image (no wiki-link to it, only experts and insider can spot it). Because good crew obey instantly under battlestation we let go of our project for the moment. But as soon as we reach a quiet harbor again, we will make a beautiful picture of one of our ships and upload it again for approval by another captain. (Or we leave the ship - every viking has that right when the ship is tied to the pier). We are sorry that some took this as sign of weakness and called us chicken.

We are very courious to enter the world of the adults and all of your Stark Tobak and explore all you know (better describes the German word Neugierde ("thirst, quest for new"), but our father is afraid we might cut ourself again deeply if we use his sharp weapons and knowledge too early ([Toddler] in our enzyclopaedia means: "child which has just learned to walk").

Anyway, we are getting carried away here, we respect you because you helped us in times of war and consider you as a friend. When you see our ship at bay we invite you to join our crew and try sailing with us - you seem to be of the Freydis-Type. You might pass the tests of our chief to becomme a member of our rank {warrior]] (which we are not yet). To do this just add your Christian name or battlename on our ship on

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Vikings&oldid=996698

as a hint of support - moin moin from the Vikings 13:34 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

May we cite you from your userpage: "Don't be afraid of making the odd mistake, there are any number of others eagerly waiting for a chance to correct it!"

That is what we did, but the storm raging up and many unfair fighting and rude language was what we got - that made our chief thinking - but we are not leaving the ship yet - hey across the ocean to beautful England (we have been there) - your Vikings 14:24 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

BTW, I opened you a rin account on Juuitchans bank, and deposited 600 rin on it. The rationale can be found at the bottom of the wikimoney page, where the fulfilled requests are listed. Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick

Many thanks Theresa - I wasn't expecting the sand as well   jimfbleak 15:04 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Just passing through on an obsessive quest to remove links to disambiguation pages ;) Regards -- sannse 08:48 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

-

Hello

My two cents at respiration user:anthere

Why "Bucket in the sand.png"? There's no bucket in the picture, just a shovel. ;) -- John Owens 21:48 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I think I've done something stupid and unintentionally reverted to bucketless version. I can't sort it out to get it back now it's all this sand.... jimfbleak 08:42 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * The first with-bucket version was saved as 8-bit RBG, that's probably why it got a bunch bigger. Going to an 8-bit indexed trims it a little bit, but not much; but I'm sure it would look just fine with considerably less than 256 colours. -- John Owens 09:34 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for the tips, I'll try to change the file type to .gif and upload again. But.... how do I get rid of the old file in .jpg? Also, where is the description page for the image? Do you mean the talk page? I did take the photo, should I write something like "Copyright 2003, M. K. Rose, Used with Permission"? Thanks again! Mick 00:33 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

More image talk: I was thinking this might fit in at Image use policy, or it might not, so I figured I'd try it out on you first. What would you think of a suggestion that the description page ought to (ideally, but realizing it's hardly going to always happen) include the size (pixels, not bytes) of the image, or at least its width? Every time I'm changing someone's <table> to a <div>, I end up clicking on that picture to bring up the Image: page, then click on the link there to open up the picture itself where my browser will then tell me (in the titlebar) what its width and height are. On a friend's computer, I can't even do that; IE doesn't seem to have a handy way to indicate the dimensions. So, for instance, on Image:Bucket in the sand.png, there would be a line saying "216 x 147 px", or maybe "216 × 147 px" if you want to get fancy. And then maybe I could really boost my edit count by going through and adding it to huge quantities of images. ;) What do you think? -- John Owens 10:48 16 Jun 2003 (UTC) - Congratulations, you have just been made a sysop! You have volunteered for boring housekeeping activities which normal users sadly cannot participate in. Sysops basically can't do anything: They cannot delete pages arbitarily (only obvious junk like "jklasdfl,öasdf JOSH IS GAY"), they cannot protect pages in an edit war they are involved in, they cannot ban signed in users. What they can do is delete junk as it appears, ban anonymous vandals, remove pages that have been listed on Votes for deletion for more than a week, protect pages when asked to, and help keep the few protected pages there are, among them the precious Main Page, up to date.

Note that almost everything you can do can be undone, so don't be too worried about making mistakes. You will find more information at Administrators, please take a look before experimenting with your new powers. Drop me a message if there are any questions or if you want to stop being a sysop (could it be?). Have fun! --Eloquence 23:05 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Well-deserved too, IMHO,  jimfbleak 05:36 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Even more deserved now I've nicked a copy of your welcome page! jimfbleak 14:56 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Your more than welcome to use it (pun intentional though not very funny). As is anyone else, though please don't forget to substitute your own talk page under "if you need help" {I like helping newbies, but only a couple at a time}Theresa knott 15:27 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I've probably got a similar amount of maths education to you, but I've seen that sort of rubbish before. In the neutrosophy area, to be precise. It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between technobabble and deliberate obscurity, but I'd rather err towards skepticism. -- Tim Starling 13:55 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Re photo images. You said: People generally do not bother to put copywrite info on such images. We should not have to guess or run around searching if there is another image somewhere else. And, the image may or may not be an exact duplicate. Courtesy and cooperation and User:Jtdirl and User:Brion VIBBER say that all images must have the copyright detail. And, if you do not do as User:Jtdirl says, he is allowed to curse and swear at you. Thank you for your cooperation. ChuckM 11:44 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You want to tell JCarriker (Talk) why replacing Image:US regions.gif with Image:US regions.jpg is a bad idea? You can start off with one being 29k, the other 10k. ;) I'm about to hit the sack, so I couldn't keep up a conversation if one were needed, and I trust you to know the issues with that. -- John Owens 11:53 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Hmm, might want to bring up the issue of claiming that TX and WV are always considered Southern states while we're at it... maybe check other recent regional edits. -- John Owens 11:55 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I know maps should be .PNG. I have been having problems with this one and saved it, incorrectly, as .jpg. I was replacing the previous map (saved as .png) that I had made a spelling error on. I also spelled Purnululu incorrectly when I named the file. I also lost the image 3 times when I was editing it. I am fed up with it and will fix it when I get back from Western Australia in 2 weeks time, when I hope to bring back some pictures of the park. If you feel inclined to fix it my absence I will be gratefu Tiles 05:23 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm back. Purnululu National Park is a wonderful area and I have now located it with .png image Tiles 05:06 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I apologize for my earlier ,jpg mistake I have no others means of up loading images andwould be grateful if any one can help me change the files. Until then I have also deleted the Old Courthouse .jpg on the Marshall, Texas Article. I have not yet finished composing the history and it stops at a rather ignominious period.

In response to John Owens’ queries about my changes to the U.S. regions files, West Virginia was already colored red in the original .gif map, so I placed it as a southern state in the list. Texas is my home state and I live in a hilly, swampy, forested area, where humidity seldom drops below 60%. This geography known as the “Piney Woods” spreads as far east as Corsicana and as far south as Conroe. From Denton to Killeen is a fertile rolling plain, and the area around Fredericksburg and Kerrville is known as the “Big Hill Country.”

Three cities Dallas, Houston, San Antonio have populations of over one million, two more cities (El Paso, Austin) have populations over 500,000. In Northeast Texas, a predominately rural area where there are no “big cities,” the population is over 1.2 million. A population more than half that of New Mexico but in an area slightly smaller than that of New Hampshire and Vermont combined.

Mexican influences are growing but are still only a small plurality in the eastern part of the state. The strong Native American influence in the southwest does not occur in Texas where there are only two Native American reservations.

Texas simply does not fit the description of a southwestern state, and this was my reason for shifting it to the South. JCarriker

Thanks for the advice on creating draft pages. Your message included the acronym YMMV. What is that? David Thrale 13:49 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is a work in progress. Everything but the first paragraph is cut and pasted. If you know of something LaGrange did, then add it in. Also, some argue that the MTV is the most important theorem in calculus. Pizza Puzzle

Hi Theresa. I've finally got round to playing with drawing in Word. A really, really stupid question. When I save, the choice is all wp formats. How can I get my works of art to be .png? instead of .doc? thanks, Jim
 * (later) I've read your "How to ..." page, so now I know - you think of everything.

Good MS Word drawings!
Like your drawing @ Test tube. Clear and to-the-point. Would love to see more illustrations like yours. --Menchi 21:14 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Theresa,

A couple of queries you might be able to help me with. I've had my first faltering steps at image creation at Bird and Drift migration, but I ran into a problem with the second one.

I could group the arrows to each other, but not to the map png which I had downloaded from Europe. I therefore opened the map in an image editor, and cut-and-pasted the grouped arrows onto the png. This time the arrows were on a rectangular white box from the original group. In the end, I printed the Word doc, and scanned back in –not an ideal solution. Is there any way I could have made the background transparent when I pasted the arrows into the image editor? (I used Adobe Elements, but I have a version of Photoshop as well if that helps).

Thanks, Jim

 * You're wonderful, Theresa, thankyou, Jim

Thank you for your support of my admin status. It is truely appreciated. Mintguy 22:21, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hello Theresa,

I came to wonder whether a mention of Lego Mindstorms might be in place at the school physics / lab tech pages that you've been editing? I guess there should really be a separate page on school technology education, but for the time being the physics page might be the place. What do you think?

Cheers,Wernher 13:10, 24 Aug 2003 (CET)

Hi. Nice to see we haven't lost tyou totally to wikibooks. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 11:53, Nov 3, 2003 (UTC)

No I still pop back here now and then :-). It's nice to see that someone missed me Theresa knott

Hi Theresa,

It's really nice of you dropping me a message on my talk page. As a new member I could use some help and connection around here. Thanks again!

Cheers,

Vyasa 12:06, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * You're more than welcome :-) You'll find lot's of the old hands round here are very helpful. Theresa knott

Hi Theresa,

It's nice you're looking for newcomers and dropping messages on their talk pages. But my first wiki-surprise was not that. In the first article I edited, between the time i submitted it and reloaded it, someone had just modified the wording, to become better.
 * There are a lot of people here ! I find it great when I write a load of old rubbish, and a few days later, as if by magic, it becomes beutiful well written prose.

One thing i don't like is the program automatically uppercasing login names. I really hate it. But then, it couldn't be perfect.

regards, User:coco 7 Nov 2003

 * Me too, when I created ny user account, I typed it all in lower case. The software then capitalised my first name by left my last name in all lower case. This looks stupid, but never mind. BTW it looks to me like you've manually typed in your ysername and date. The software will do this for you if you type 4 tilds ~ Theresa knott 23:47, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Just being a fly on the wall, T, but you can change that behaviour by setting a "nickname" thingy in your Preferences. It will come out something like theresa knott :) Dysprosia 23:50, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the advice of you both. Also, note (Dysprosia) that I was refering to you in my first paragraph here.  ;) coco 00:13, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Situation solved, no need to go to undeletion. I like your figures, btw and i always wonder what you could accomplish if you use Corel, or Canvas instead of word. Cheers, Muriel Victoria 09:53, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * I recomend Corel draw, which allows you to do virtually anything, including creating objects by trimming and the likes. I use it almos every day in my official work (geology) and in the wiki family trees. Cheers, Muriel

title: User talk:Theresa knott/archive 1


text:
Talk:12 Angry Men (1957 film)

Introduction wording
The phrase "the twelve men must unanimously determine innocence or guilt" is wrong, and in fact that is one of the main tenets that underpins the justice system and the play (and film) itself. It is not innocent or guilty, it is guilty or not guilty, and there is a very big difference. I am going to reword that sentence to fit in with this.

I feel the the introduction also uses too much subjectivity! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.18.178 (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't the Russian remake on the list?
It rivals and even may surpass the original. The Russian one is simply called "12".

-G
 * It is there now. ~ I am neuron 22:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Wasn't the defendant Hispanic in both movies? Or was he Italian in the first? There was a bit of ethnic prejudice involved in the story, if I remember right.

Thanks, Cunctator, for inserting my 'comment' from the m.l. why must ya'll? --Uncle Ed 15:44, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * On your first point, I think so too, although it was not actually stated in the dialogue, I believe we were intended to understand that he was Hispanic; making him Italian wouldn't have made sense since the watchmaker/Juror #11 was obviously Italian and the central point of the plot was the ethnic divide between the jury and the accused. Ellsworth 17:51, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) Thus I will note the article. Ellsworth

 * Years ago I watched the original black and white in Law class in highschool. Yesterday i revisted the movie and rented it. Then today I rented the remake. I notice that in the section abot the differences it states that one of the differences was that he defendant was hispanic. Since i originally thought he was hispanic in the black and white, and since they don't say what his is, how can this be a difference? I think that should be removed or changed somehow. Masterhatch 08:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * He was Hispanic in the first movie, possibly Puerto Rican. The rant by Begley seems to support that he's Puerto Rican by some of the comments being made being typical of some people's beliefs about Puerto Ricans.  If he was Italian and the watchmaker was Italian I can't believe the rant would've lasted very long or been made at all.  Wasn't there a shot of the kid at the beginning of the filem?--66.240.89.45 14:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The actor's name was John Savoca, which is Italian apparently. The Wikipedia article says that he's Puerto Rican in the 1957 movie, but zero mention of that or any other ethnicity is in the movie--so the reference should be removed. Claiming he's Puerto Rican seems to be a wishful thinking invention by those who wish to impute race/ethnicity into everything. Begley's rant was repeatedly due to his class (a "slum-dweller"), not his ethnicity. Begley had ample opportunity during his long, out-of-control-rant to mention ethnicity if that's what motivated him but he never did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.228.10 (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

 * I had actually thought he was African-American.

There is a shot of the kid at the beginning of the 1957 film. However, the film is black and white and it's not so easy to distinguish the ethnicity, though it's apparent the kid is not WASP. David.Monniaux 09:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the point is left deliberately ambiguous and because the movie is set in NYC, it could be any number. Davis says "if you don't believe the boy's story, why do you believe the woman's? she's one of them too." He doesn't say "she's black too" or "she's puerto rican too." It's left open so that the story is adaptable and relatable to anyone.Cromicus 07:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Huh. I'd thought he was Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.15.187 (talk) 08:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

 * It was deliberately left ambiguous. (ManyMoonsoons (talk) 00:26, 9 September 2018 (UTC))
 * Clearly so. Unschool 00:51, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I recently saw the original teleplay (which does a tremendous job of hitting all the same points in about 50 minutes, great cast, great performances, by the way). And it very deliberately tells us nothing specific about the ethnicity of the accused. We never see the face of the accused. "Them," "those people," are the only words used, and letting viewers plug in their own guess actually makes the point stronger. It doesn't seem as contrived as you might suspect; the way everyone skirts actually naming the group involved seems very realistic -- it's one way people behave when expressing their prejudices. Mandrakos (talk) 08:12, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Play is intended to be as universal as possible. The defendant's ethnicity is deliberately ambiguous, allowing each audience/audience member to imagine his or her own group as the one Juror 10 hates. The actor portraying the defendant in the film has dark features, but as several ethnic groups in New York at that time were stereotypically seen as having such features (Italians, Jews, Puerto Ricans), it is wrong to identify him as Hispanic. The source the article cites (the text of the stage play) makes no specific reference whatsoever to the defendant's ethnicity, on the indicated page or any other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.169.54 (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

 * He was obviously Italian. (86.135.242.97 (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC))

 * Lumet said he only made films about Jews and Italians to begin with. (86.135.242.55 (talk) 15:23, 10 June 2022 (UTC))

Black and white
Why begin with a sentence calling it a "black-and-white" movie? If you're going to go that route, why not call it a "celluloid" movie, or a "talking" movie? Or am I missing something?

 * Celluloid was no longer in use as a photographic medium when this film was produced. And silent films were antiquated by the 1950s. It was "black and white" as opposed to the "color" we have all taken for granted for decades. --Rog
 * But black and white was still common in 1957, and there's nothing particularly relevant about its black-and-white-ness, eg, it isn't a film noir. --Cammoore 10:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I came on to make the exact same point. I think calling it a "black-and-white movie" in the very first sentence is pointless; a movie is a movie after all. It's not something which effects the film in any way, so I've removed the reference for now.
 * The reference is relevant but maybe just not in the first sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.209.94 (talk) 21:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Grammar
For Juror #11 is the phrase "proud of be an American" intetionally corect or should it be (a) "proud of being an American" or (b) "proud to be an American" 69.171.146.13

To be Minicampa16 (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Dead Zone
It could also be added that the Dead Zone episode "Unreasonable Doubt" was a homage to the movie in the section where you list parodies and such.

Other 'parodies'/ 'homages'
It's obvious there have been many of these; as I type this I'm watching an episode of Veronica Mars that involves scenes similar to this film.

Minority Influence
I've been told the film inspired psychologists to begin research into minority influence; if this can be verified it'd be worth including.

 * It might well have (I've just finished writing a thesis on minority influence). Maybe a Google search on "minority influence" and the "movie title" could help clear things up. Twipley (talk) 02:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

budget
the budget estimates are inconsistent "340,000 estimated" and "350,000". I don't know which is correct.

Estimates listed on IMDb indicate that the budget wa s $350,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.160.223.63 (talk) 05:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Remake
Should remake and other versions be it own sections?

I believe they should be separated because both versions are famous for their specific casts. Qwizzical777 00:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The Play
Was the movie not based on the play by Reginald Rose?

 * We read the play in class once a while back, I'm pretty sure it came first.--Agent Aquamarine 00:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism
I'm not sure if this is appropriate to mention or not, but did anyone see the symbolism in Henry Fonda being the only juror who was wearing a white jacket? I just enjoyed that for some odd reason. Very subtle, I love old movies :)

ChangeOfFate 02:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is plenty more symbolism in the movie than that, too. The fan begins to work, among other events, at 6-6, for example.  If those things find a place in the article, then certainly include them, but it all borders on interpretation and original research.  If it fits, though, go for it, I say. - Boss1000 01:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The Jury
Did anyone notice that there was only men on the jury? There is 51% of women in the U.S. and 49% of men. Therefore there would of had to been some women on the jury. Why wasn't there?
 * If I remember correctly, in the shots of the jury room, there's two doors leading to washrooms, and one is for women.
 * Unsure why that particular jury didn't have females. If you have a 50/50 probability, then there's one chance in 4096 that there will be no females. However, in many jurisdictions, it is possible to dismiss jurors according to a variety of criteria, including the possibility that the juror might be sympathetic to the accused for reasons unrelated to the case — perhaps women would be considered probably sympathetic to a teenager? David.Monniaux 01:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In the period in question, juries were all male. Regards, Ben Aveling 11:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's not correct. There have been female jurors for many decades, and in well publicized New York cases in the fifties.--Silverscreen 15:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but all male juries were still common. I had a web search, without finding anything specific saying when things changed where.  Just FYI:

 * 1701 The first sexually integrated jury hears cases in Albany, New York.

 * 1947 Fay v. New York, 332 U.S. 261 (1947), the U.S. Supreme Court says women are equally qualified with men to serve on juries but are granted an exemption and may serve or not as women choose.

 * 1961 In Hoyt v. Florida, 368 U.S. 57 (1961): The U.S. Supreme Court upholds rules adopted by the state of Florida that made it far less likely for women than men to be called for jury service on the grounds that a “woman is still regarded as the center of home and family life.”

 * 1975 Taylor v. Louisiana, 419 U.S. 522 (1975), denies states the right to exclude women from juries.

 * 1879 In Strauder v. West Virginia, the U.S. Supreme Court holds that the Fourteenth Amendment forbids a state to bar men from jury pools based on race or color, but "[i]t may confine the selection to males, to freeholders, to citizens, to persons within certain ages, or to persons having educational qualifications. We do not believe the Fourteenth Amendment was ever intended to prohibit this."

 * In 1957 the Civil Rights Act provided the right of women to sit on juries in federal cases. Five years later, however, in 1962 only twenty-one states allowed women to sit on lower level juries with men. While the first woman sat on a jury in 1701 in Albany, New York, it wasn’t until 272 years later, in 1973 that women could sit on a jury in all 50 states. Even with the various legislative and legal efforts, it wasn’t in 1975 that excluding women specifically from serving on juries was expressly declared unconstitutional in Taylor v. Louisiana, 419 U.S. 522 (1975). In all, women have served on juries in the United States for over 300 years, yet only over the past 30 years was this right absolute.

 * Regards, Ben Aveling 23:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Parts of the country slow to act on legislation? When has that ever happened in the USA? - Boss1000 01:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

 * We don't know when the action is set - could have been, say, 1946. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The short answer, of course, is "That's the way it was written." If there were women in the jury, it could not have been titled "Twelve Angry Men." Kingsfold (talk) 12:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Expanded characters
I've rolled back the expansion of all of the characters. I feel a bit bad about doing it, because the anon obviously put a lot of work into it, but I think it's better this way. The current version is short, to the point and punchy. The extra detail isn't really necessary, and is a bit spoilerish, and makes the whole thing harder to read. Regards, Ben Aveling 10:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't compare the versions, but I know I am in agreement. This has to be the longest "plot summary" I have ever read. It's nearly as long as the movie!ZincOrbie 17:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added that #1 is sort of a wishy-washy leader who depends on the advice of others. If you notice, whenever someone makes a suggestion, such as what type of ballot to use, he just agrees without question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.80.129 (talk) 01:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * While it is perhaps true, it should be taken out again; as far as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) that guy is not meant to be a leader, but to make sure that the protocol is observed; it is not his place to order a particular ballot mode, he can only propose, and the jury has to agree. Andi, 28.01.2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.65.106.178 (talk) 23:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect Statement:
The ensuing arguments and sifting of the evidence unveil the flaws of the prosecution's case, the questionable representation by the defendant's court-appointed attorney, and the true character of each of the jury members. Although it is only implied, it becomes apparent that the accused boy is a member of an ethnic minority, "one of them", and from a poor neighbourhood. One by one, the jurors find their own reasons to doubt that the defendant's guilt has been proven, until only Juror #3 (Lee J. Cobb, playing a father with a poor relationship with his own son) and Juror #10 (Ed Begley) are holding out.

Never was the juror score 10-2 in the case. Before the discussion of the eyewitnesses lack of glasses, the juror score was 9-3 in favor of acquittal (with jurors #3, #4 and #10 voting guilty.) During the discussion, Juror #12 waffles back to Guilty, making the count 8-4, however, after the discussion reaches the pinnacle, Juror #8 (Fonda) asks the 4 "guilty voters" how they felt. He first approached #12, Not Guilty, #10, Not Guilty, #3 Guilty, #4 Not Guilty. This brings the case to 11-1.

Making a small edit to the wiki.MrDiGeorge 00:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrDiGeorge (talk • contribs) 00:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Actually, there was a 10-2 score - when the old man (juror number 9) sided with Henry Fonda's character after the first vote. Gestroud 01:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Job descriptions
The job descriptions in the article are inconsistent with those listed on the IMDB trivia page (look about three up from the bottom). Not sure if the IMDB data are reliable, but I just wanted to point that out.

The whole description of the characters in the Plot Summary section doesn't seem very encyclopedic--there's a lot of flowery language that's unsubstantiated (e.g. "A blue-collar type, like a dock worker or factory man"). Ben Aveling's edit did help clean up the Characters section, but it looks like an anon (same one?) put the expanded character descriptions in the Plot Summary section a few days later. They're nice, but again, it's not in an encyclopedic tone and it isn't published and verifiable (they're more or less correct but they are subjective interpretation). Probably should be removed. cluth 09:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Legal Standpoint
I'd love to see a section (or even just a link to an external site) detailing the legal implications of the plot. Is this sort of critical review of the evidence by the jury typical, or are juries typically expected to only notice these kinds of inconsistencies when an opposing lawyer brings them up? Are there any particularly-egregious legal missteps in the deliberations, like direct handling of evidence? Jouster 00:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

What goes on in the jury room is generally believed to completely vary between juries. In Canada discussions about jury deliberations are absolutely forbidden (unlike America where it is often profitable), but most people generally believe that the jury follows the judge's charge to whatever extent they want to and then go off on their own illogical and misguided assessment of guilt.

There are some things that could be said about the way this jury went about things though. It's generally not allowed for the jurors to bring in their own evidence, so the loudness of the el-train and the knife that Davis bought would have contaminated things--it should have been brought out during the trial by the defence so that the DA could cross-examine it. It's also improper for the jury to consider the accused's criminal record to determine guilt or innocence, only, in limited cases, to assess his credibility. Cromicus 21:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * And Juror #10 was so prejudiced he would almost certainly have been eliminated by the defense as a juror.

Thank you for bringing up what has always bothered me about this film. The jury room scene with the two knives is great for a Hollywood film but completely unacceptable for a jury room. I accept the argument that a motion pictures is meant solely for entertainment purposes up to the point where advocates of a film push and lecture an audience with a political agenda while being factually inaccurate. That is when I object. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.252.189 (talk) 04:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

 * The original movie was set in 1957 don't forget Nil Einne (talk) 09:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The film was produced in 1957 ... but, was it actually set in 1957, as well? I don't think a setting is ever established.   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC))

 * The legal opinion section shows whats wrong with our current legal system. Our founders inducing first US Supreme Court Chief Justice said juries decided the facts AND the law not the judge.

"It is not only [the juror's] right, but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court." -- John Adams, 1771

".....it is usual for the jurors to decide the fact, and to refer the law arising on it to the decision of the judges. But this division of the subject lies with their discretion only. And if the question relate to any point of public liberty, or if it be one of those in which the judges may be suspected of bias, the jury undertake to decide both law and fact." -- Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia," 1782

It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are in your power of decision.....you have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. -- Chief Justice John Jay, Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794

Jurors should acquit, even against the judge's instruction...if exercising their judgement with discretion and honesty they have a clear conviction that the charge of the court is wrong. -- Alexander Hamilton, 1804

If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence...If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, United States v. Moylan, 1969

[The jury has an] unreviewable and irreversible power...to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions of the judge; for example, acquittals under the fugitive slave law. D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, Unites States v. Dougherty, 1972 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.218.69.39 (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Mistakes
Don't understand the point about mistakes. Why is it a mistake for a movie to be set two years before the year in which it is made? Is a date mentioned in the screenplay, or is there some anachronism which proves it is set after the elevated train ceased to run? --Doric Loon 21:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think a year is mentioned in the film/screenplay. I removed the section. Garion96 (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Play
Did the play come first? And were the jobs even mentioned in it? And in the play it takes 8 thirty-nine seconds, not forty one.

Trivia/Mistakes
I re-added the trivia/mistakes section. The fellow who removed it argued that Juror #10 does talk near the end of the film. However, when asked whether guilty or not guilty the final time, he merely shakes his head (not guilty) but doesn't say anything.Cromicus 21:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that Tony Danza was listed as an actor in the movie but according to his bio he would only be 6 years old at the time of the film's release. Someone should double check this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yusuf mumtaz (talk • contribs) 05:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * (Tony Danza was in the remake in 1997) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118528/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.33.46.226 (talk) 00:40, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: I've moved the comment above from here. CabbagePotato (talk) 20:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The opening line of the Wiki-page states that the film was produced in 1957. Now while it may have been released to the public in 1957 and included in the oscars etc of 1957 the film itself was actually made and produced in 1956 and the roman numerals at the end of the film confirm this. They are MCMLVI Bealzbob (talk) 16:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC) Bealzbob

The Murderer?
I somewhat want there to be a mention in this article of the fact that the actual murderer is never discussed, much less any of the aftermath. Did I miss something in movie, because I was continually asking myself, "Then who did it?" I don't want to add in something I just didn't understand. - Boss1000 01:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This subject was deliberately omitted from the story to signify the fact that "if he didn't do it, who did?" is usually an unnecessary question in jury deliberations. You don't convict someone just because the police can't seem to find anyone else. Cromicus 01:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Links
Why is there a link to Jury Nullification in this article? 12 Angry Men doesn't deal with jury nullification at all.Cromicus 23:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The plot device used to spur the discussion from the start was the first juror's dissent, which threatened the other 11 with jury nullification unless they discussed the case before voting.

Being a major plot point, it deserves some notice. Qwizzical777 00:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

> This isn't an example of Jury Nullification. Jury Nullification is when a Jury believes that the defendant is guilty of what he is accused but they disagree with the law (meaning they don't believe there should be a law against what the defendant did) -- so they return a verdict of non-guilty. 75.36.166.238 (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not produced by Sidney Lumet
While it's true that this was the first screen movie that Lumet directed, it was produced by Henry Fonda. It was his first and only film production. Gestroud 01:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Another Homage
I remember another homage in the 7. season of JAG. The Episode was called "Odd Man Out". This one is also particularly interesting because it turns out at the end, that the person found not guilty - was in fact guilty. Eventually this should be added properly to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.35.49.157 (talk) 14:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Reasonable doubt
The link to that term in the first paragraphs leads to the "burden of proof" article, but the "reasonable doubt" article also exist. Twipley (talk) 02:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Misquote in synopsis.
I have noted that the synopsis includes J. 10 (the bigot) saying, "Speaking my piece," to which J. 4 (the broker) replies "Yes, you have. now sit down and don't open your mouth again." This is close, but not exactly the wording in the film. Here is the quite, copied from the IMDB page: (I have included more than the relevant section, for background.) (Also note: I am no expert on fair use, but I think the use of the precise quote in the article fits in.) Juror #10: Listen to me. We're... This kid on trial here... his type, well, don't you know about them? There's a, there's a danger here. These people are dangerous. They're wild. Listen to me. Listen. Juror #4: I have. Now sit down and don't open your mouth again.

I'm trying to rephrase the section to include these precise quotes, if anyone has a better wording, it may be worth looking into. -MMTrebuchet (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC) MMTrebuchet

Terrible article
I came to this article trying to find out about the movie. The table is extremely confusing. The article says this is about a 1957 film (says so right in the article's title). Yet the table has columns for "1954 actor", "2006-2007 actor", etc. There is no clue why this would be in the lede of the article, and hunting through the rest of the piece doesn't make things easier. I think this needs a serious rewrite or at the very least, provide some context for the Cast of Characters table, because as presented, it makes zero sense with respect to the 1957 film this article proposes to be about.68.144.172.8 (talk) 22:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Name of Jury #9
I have gone over the film again. At the last scene I heard the jury #9 call himself McCardle instead of McArdle. Please correct it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.152.243.146 (talk) 12:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done — Andy W. (talk · contrib) 14:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Psychiatric testimony?
I've just finished making some changes to the article based on the MGM DVD. There are some differences with the article that I'm curious about. One is this:

 * The remaining jurors are intrigued when Juror 11 proves that although the psychiatric test presented in the case stated that the boy had subconscious desires to kill, tests of such do not prove anything other than what could possibly happen.

There is nothing about this on the DVD and I removed it. Could this be a deleted scene? Unlike a lot of DVDs, this one has no deleted-scene feature. Should it be put back in?

Rhsimard (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorting columns in cast of characters table
In the cast of characters table, I fixed the problem with the sort order in the last column. There is a template,, which if used with the names in the various actor columns will fix the sort order there as well. 67.101.6.146 (talk) 03:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Adaptations
There's a real problem with the list of adaptations, particularly the television section. It clearly goes against WP:NOR for Wikipedia editors to decide that any TV show that has a similar plot is an adaptation of 12 Angry Men. We need a reliable source for that and there aren't any sources at all in that subsection. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 10:39, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

 * The UK TV comedy show Hancock's Half Hour 1959 episode "12 Angry Men" did a wonderful and affectionate parody of Lumet's film - see YouTube here: - the building shown in the opening shot is the Central Criminal Court - otherwise known as The Old Bailey.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 15:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Where in the US does a criminal trial by jury not need to be unanimous?
I had originally said that all criminal trials by jury in the US require a unanimous verdict but someone else said there are some places in the US where that is not always the case. Exactly where and under what circumstances?75.81.197.59 (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Our article on Juries in the United States states (without citation) that some state and local jurisdiction allow this. It's news to me though. NW ( Talk ) 04:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Different Ending
i remember the boy (the accused/defendant) grabbing a policeman's gun and shooting someone or getting shot on the courtroom steps after the not guilty verdict. it was a big shock/twist ending. I recently watched the film again, and see there is no such ending. Is there an alternate ending to this film or another film with that same ending I am mixing this one up with. Thanks in advance. Scott Free (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

 * That's definitely not the ending to any version of this particular script. But I don't think you're imagining the scene -- a number of courtroom dramas, full-length or television episodes -- have had twist endings of this general kind. Mandrakos (talk) 08:21, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

cultural reference: xkcd comic
This comic actually got me to watch the movie. http://xkcd.com/657/ The 12 Angry Men reference is very funny, especially in contrast to movie Primer.

However, I'm not smart enough to edit a wikipedia page. Could someone do it for me? Don't want to mess something up. Theresavalek (talk) 09:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Where did the "real names" come from?
I see the table lists the real names of most of the jurors. As far as I know, only the last names of Jurors 8 and 9 were mentioned in the film. What is the source for listing the real names of the jurors? 199.86.19.178 (talk) 05:12, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Bad aspect ratio
Could someone please fix the aspect ration of the trailer video? --TiagoTiago (talk) 23:35, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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Attribution
Attribution: some of the content and references were copied from 12 Angry Men (1957 film) to Legal drama. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * See Copying within Wikipedia. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I did not do the copying. The other editor had included it in the edit summary.  I was just making a supplementary record on the talk page.  7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Stan! I did not consider for a nano-second that you had. Is it sufficient that "The other editor had included it in the edit summary."? Cheers! Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 18:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Similar Belgian tv series
"De Twaalf" is a similar Belgian tv series. Maybe someone can add that? 2A02:1812:2522:7900:45BC:F4F4:D58:6084 (talk) 21:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:12 Angry Men (1957 film)


text:
Talk:47 (number)

Sev Trek/42 reference
I remember there was a Sev Trek comic that explained that 47 was The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything with inflation involved.. Does anyone remember this comic, since I feel that it would rather be a big contribution to the Star Trek side of 47?

It took place on the Voyager with Paris asking Janeway a question.. DrWho42 21:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * *pokes you* Look in the article. It's right there, next to the Berman quote. Also, it was Tuvok, not Paris. I got a bit of flack for saying what I did, though, because Sevilians didn't want to imply that the joke came from Berman. I worded it the way I did to try to make clear that it was the same explanation being referenced, i.e. 42 plus inflation, not Berman's joke being referenced. If there's another way to word it so it's clearer that it's the explanation and not Berman, I'm all for it. Admiral Memo 20:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Ahh, thanks, it's been awhile since I've read the comic since they've archived it away. DrWho42 02:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's in there, but it's not accessible to anyone on a text-based browser. Shouldn't someone write a longer more explanitory caption for it? I don't have the time myself at the moment.

TRiG 20:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

47 and Lost
I don't think that the connection stated between Lost's number series and 47 really should be included here, I imagine if you look hard enough you can make 47 out of an awful lot of series of numbers. Why not mention things like there being an initial count of 47 survivors instead?
 * I think the number of survivors used to be on the page. As for the numerology, many people get 47s out of Star Trek by computing number series. Admiral Memo 23:11, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There were initially 48 survivors, but I assume that includes Ethan. I can't come up with any other example of 47 in Lost. -TheContralto 20:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

47 - Numerology
What about numerology? Anyone knows anything about this?

 * I don't think this should be included but a curious opinion from the notable occultist Aleister Crowley is found in "777" (LIBER DCCLXXVII.—Vel Prolegomena Symbolica Ad Systemam Sceptico-Mysticæ Viæ Explicandæ, Fundamentum Hieroglyphicum Sanctissimorum Scientæ Summæ) otherwise known as "LIBER DCCLXXVII.—A COMPLETE DICTIONARY OF THE CORRESPONDENCES OF ALL MAGICAL ELEMENTS" which is classified by the publishers as the result of "ordinary scholarship, enlightened and earnest". Under the heading "THE MEANING OF THE PRIMES FROM 11 TO 97" the following advice is offered for number 47: "The yoni as dynamic, prehensile, spasmodic, etc. Esprit de travail."  A preview of the book is available on Amazon and Google.  It's also available here:   Many online copies exclude this material.

*s and spaces
How come somew of the *s had spaces and some had none? We should be consistent. I changed them to all have spaces after them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 47 Numb3r (talk • contribs) 11:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

BS
Maybe 47 "...occurs in nature with noticeably higher frequency than other natural numbers", but that's no excuse to cite every appearence of the number in film/TV/etc. as evidence of something odd going on. For example is it really remarkable that 47 is the international telephone code for Norway when other nearby countries have nearby numbers (UK - 44, Denmark - 45, Sweden - 46, Germany - 49); or that New Mexico is the 47th state; or that there were 47 Ronin?

Maybe. The international telephone code for Norway isn't too amazing but the 47 Ronin this is pretty neat. No, every appearance of 47 is a bit much but some of the more interesting things (the whole Star Trek thing and, hey! no one wants to mention Bach?) makes a lot of sense. Say, and why is this article so very small, anyway? 75.48.30.93 (talk) 01:19, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Confusing deletion nomination
An anon user created a sub-page to this talk page. Maybe I've done it wrong, but flagging the sub-page for deletion gives the incorrect impression that I'm nominating this whole talk page as well. If you know how to nominate only the sub-page, please let me know. Astronaut 01:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind. It got deleted correctly - and damn quick too.  Astronaut 02:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Image:S70.jpg
Please note that this image is Fair Use and should not be used on disambiguation pages, only on Sev Trek where the claim may be applied. See the above linked policy for further elaboration. ~Kylu ( u | t )  02:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If I get the author's permission to distribute it, would it then not be Fair Use, and able to be used in the article? For me, I believe it would be easy to do that. Admiral Memo 04:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If the author releases it under a free license (GFDL, Creative Commons by-sa, or public domain), that would be fine. We still call images nonfree if the license is exclusive to WP. It has to be a transferable license. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

47 Miracles in the New Testament
In attempting to resolve the "citation needed" tag, I did a bit of web diving. I can find no references to 47 miracles in the New Testament, even in fiction. Several sites (one, two) 47 is not a prime number it is proven to be composite by many investigators.

 * OK, I was going along with you until you said "47 is not a prime;" that's just plain stupid. Anton Mravcek 22:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Coincidence? I think not.
For some reason, ever since I became aware (and played) the game Hitman 47, I would often notice 47 in time. Most specifically 10:47. I'm not sure why, but after getting interested (this is a daily occurrence, very often I just glance at the time and the minute is 47, I thought it was just coincidence at first, but it happens so often, especially at 10). Reading here it says that this number occurs more than other numbers, and I think that is true, though only in time I can notice it's occurrence more than other numbers. 24.129.233.22 (talk) 20:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I think that just means your clock has stopped... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.161.15.162 (talk) 13:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Replacement of copyedit with trivia tag
I'm not experienced with the trivia issue but it seems as far as "style" goes, this section is fine (after a few minor gm edits). Someone experienced with handling out-of-control trivia should help here. Belovedeagle (talk) 01:52, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Trivia and the in-joke
The article may be confusing in regard to the scope of the "in-joke" popularized by Star Trek. When it says "From Star Trek, the 47 was carried on into modern pop culture and nowadays appears frequently in...", that's not to claim all (or any) the following sightings can be attributed to it. Rather, I believe they're meant as "naturally" occurring trivia (barring new evidence to the contrary).

I undid the 1 Jan 2010 edits by Staecker "rm things that can't possibly be in-jokes" because there should be no implication that anything those sections is "part of the joke". I don't necessarily mean to advocate for inclusion if there's consensus those sightings were too trivial. To me, they seemed on par with the remaining trivia. -- Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 05:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed them because the " In sports" is a subsection of the section " As an in-joke". So I guess you'll suggest that "In sports" be made into its own section. Perhaps in a "Trivia" section? But then it becomes a free-for-all of trivial facts, which is not appreciated here at Wikipedia. (See WP:TRIVIA and WP:INDISCRIMINATE.) Staecker (talk) 23:54, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Thank you Staecker for pointing out that "In sports" etc are technically subsections. If they're to remain, they should be reorganized into stand-alone sections. -- Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 09:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

 * This list is ridiculous. Are we really assuming that every time the number 47 happens to show up anywhere it's part of a big in-joke that started in Pomona? How about some reliable references for any of the entries in the list showing that they are in fact intentional in-jokes and not just a number chosen more or less at random? —Bkell (talk) 01:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I just removed a bunch of unreferenced trivia entries that seemed exceedingly insignificant to me. Many of these, for example, seemed to be instances in which the number 47 happens to appear very briefly and inconsequentially in a movie or television show. Granted, there are many of these movies I have not seen, so perhaps the number 47 is actually a vital part of the plot; if so, feel free to replace it, with an explanation of why it is important to the film. There may be other instances in which the occurrence of 47 is part of the "in-joke" described; if so, replace it, but cite a reference to prove that claim. I also removed the list of athletes who have worn the number 47. There are only so many jersey numbers to go around; of course there will be some great athletes who happen to have that number. No references were cited to show that this was a particularly meaningful number to any of the athletes who wore it; it seemed to me to be just an example of the strong law of small numbers (or perhaps the pigeonhole principle). —Bkell (talk) 01:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, I did keep those items (such as 47 Ronin) that include the number 47 in their titles, though I did delete references to some bands that were apparently not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. —Bkell (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

(O_o) Bkell, I explained that none of these sightings are relevant to Pomona. (But kudos for Strong Law of Small Numbers). -- Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 09:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I've reorganized the article hoping this will make trivia unrelated to Star Trek easier to manage.

I notice 47 (number) has been cross referenced: WP:POINT "If you think that this list of examples has become excessively long and boring... do not add 47 more examples just for the purpose of making it even more cumbersome". Maybe a Star Trek fan, the previous example was 42? -- Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 06:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Dead link
The fourth reference in this article - "The Mystique of 47". Pomona College. http://www.pomona.edu/welcome/trek/47trek.shtml. Retrieved 2010-01-12." - brings up a 404. Can someone update this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Terrorist96 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Refreshed link as this page had moved to http://www.pomona.edu/about/47/star-trek.aspx Also deleted link to 47Movies.com, as this link was bad. link to; http://web.archive.org/web/20090429021701/http://www.allalias.com/guide/index.php/47 is not working as of this writing, but I've decided to give it the benefit of the doubt. Related, I'm unsure of the value of an external links section to this article. Joseph M Warren (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Sports references
I think this section may be a little bit trivial:
 * NBA star Andrei Kirilenko wears the jersey number 47. His shoes are custom made by Nike and have "AK-47" embroidered on them. Scott Norwood's legendary missed field goal was from 47 yards out. North York Bluntz forward Tyler Madarasz wears number 47, and goes by the nickname, "Dusty 47."

Sports players with jerseys numbered 47 are very common, and most of them aren't notable. (Andrei Kirilenko might be due to also having the initials A.K., but otherwise, whatever.) And Norwood's missed field goal was obviously just sheer coincidence. All the other pop-culture references seem to be deliberate in-jokes by the writers, but these sports references look like just random chance. Lurlock (talk) 08:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

In Popular Culture, Music
I couldn't find Elvis Presley's Jailhouse Rock in the Popular Culture section, where music was referenced. I recommend adding it in.

XXBludnmunyXx (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

 * What does that have to do with 47? — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 20:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

 * The song Jailhouse Rock contains the line "Number forty-seven said to number three". I haven't added this myself as I'm not convinced it counts as noteable. Joseph M Warren (talk) 23:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

47-year cycle of Mars observed by the ancients
I added '''The 47-year cycle of Mars: after 47 years - 22 synodic periods of 780 days each - Mars returns to the same position among the stars and is in the same relationship to the Earth and Sun. The ancient Mesopotamians discovered this cycle.<ref] </ref]''' - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.157.29 (talk) 18:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

JJ Abrams
It seems wrong to attribute Abrams' use of 47 to Star Trek - he was using it long before he directed the Star Trek reboot. The article even mentions how it was frequently seen in Alias, which began airing 8 years before Abrams' Star Trek was released. Also, Abrams was quoted as being more of a "Star Wars guy" before he signed on to direct Star Trek (http://www.startrek.com/database_article/abrams) so I think we can eliminate Star Trek as being the source of him using the number 47. 201.21.4.239 (talk) 00:10, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * JJ's use is almost certainly linked to a Star Wars reference; in the first season of Alias, there is a specific reference to "T-47s", in a line of dialogue that is something of a paraphrase of a line from Empire Strikes Back. 75.131.42.151 (talk) 04:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on 47 (number). Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for //www.pomona.edu/welcome/trek/kyl.shtml
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for //www.pomona.edu/welcome/trek/trek.shtml

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 09:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Notability
Is this subject WP:NOTABLE? Really? Some in joke by a couple of college grads who have written scripts for Star Trek? Maybe it deserves a page at Memory Alpha, but not here. It's the sort of article that gives WP a bad name. --Ef80 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Bingo names -
Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers for a centralized discusion as to whether Bingo names should be included in thiese articles. Arthur Rubin (alternate) (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Lead expansion
I don't think Pomona College and Pro Era have sufficient importance in themselves to be worth listing in the lead. Star Trek and J J Abrams, perhaps. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Numbers are very much outliers among Wikipedia articles for often having intros so short (this one was previously just one sentence), and I think we ought to move toward consistency with MOS:INTRO as it is applied everywhere else, including due weight proportional to the attention given to the topic in the body (which itself is supported by available secondary references). Star Trek is just the most prominent example of a Pomona alum spreading 47, so I didn't initially include it, but I'd be fine with it being added to the lead as well. To speak to importance more broadly, I'm not overly familiar with Pro Era, but regarding Pomona, we're not talking about trivia — the affiliation with 47 is an officially endorsed, elaborately carried tradition that has persisted over decades and been well documented by secondary sources. - Sdkb (talk) 07:37, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that probably has more significance in itself than Pomona College or Pro Era, but Star Trek and J J Abrams have more significance than either Pomona College or Pro Era.  The lead should have the connections with the most significance.  That's why I used the importance inline tag; although number leads are difficult, if we include culture connections, we should include the most significant connections, not the most established connections.  By the way, is the J J Abrams connection related to Pomona College?  It certainly predates his involvement with Star Trek.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 07:56, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Both the significance of the cultural entity with a 47 connection and the extent to which the entity is connected to 47 are considerations for whether and how much information to include in the body, and that translates to the intro per MOS:INTRO. And JJ Abrams almost certainly took the connection from Menosky, who took it from Pomona, so yes, there's an indirect connection. To just mention Star Trek in the intro without saying where Star Trek got it from would be incomplete and confusing to readers. I'll take a stab at creating an intro that includes both, and I'll add a WP:RS to help justify Pomona. - Sdkb (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You just reverted again, noting only that you consider the examples "unimportant." That's not a policy-based argument. Please engage on the talk page here if you wish to continue to oppose the inclusion. - Sdkb (talk) 06:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Quoting from MOS:INTRO: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." (Emphasis added.)  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 17:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That's the intro to the section; if you read down a few paragraphs, the way importance is calculated is established not by editors' intuitions but rather by WP:DUE proportionate to the availability of reliable sources. That makes the reference I provided that you removed significant, since it's a full article in a national radio program about 47 and the Pomona/Star Trek connection. There aren't all that many articles in national publications specifically about the number 47, so Marketplace's coverage is as good an indicator of importance as you're likely to find. MOS:LEADREL also requires that we "harmonize coverage in the lead with material in the body of the article," and Pomona/Pro Era both have their own sections supported by sources in the body. I'd also reiterate that the "stand on its own" provision you quoted supports adding a brief mention of Pomona, since otherwise it is impossible to explain why 47 appears in Star Trek, which readers will surely wonder. - Sdkb (talk) 19:57, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced. Do you want to invoke WP:3O?  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure, I just listed it. Thanks for making the suggestion. Sdkb (talk) 16:45, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Third opinion

 * Thanks for chiming in, Erpert. Thinking about it a bit more, I'm actually somewhat on the fence about including Star Trek — as was discussed above, WP:UNDUE (actually WP:BALASP if we're being technical) needs to be "proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject", and such material does exist for the Star Trek connection. But I'll go ahead and revert to a version that includes only the more established cultural connections. If you have any thoughts on those, please feel free to share them (although I'd stress the need for arguments to be based in WP policy/evidence about sourcing, rather than gut reactions about what feels important or not). Sdkb (talk) 06:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:47 (number)


text:
Ghent (disambiguation)

Ghent is a city in Belgium.

Ghent may also refer to:

Places

 * United States:
 * Ghent, Kentucky
 * Ghent, Minnesota
 * Ghent (CDP), New York
 * Ghent, New York
 * Ghent (NYCRR station), a former railway station in the New York town of the same name
 * Ghent, Ohio
 * Ghent (Norfolk), Virginia
 * Ghent, West Virginia

Other uses

 * Ghent (surname)
 * K.A.A. Gent, a Belgian football club
 * Treaty of Ghent

title: Ghent (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Idea–expression distinction

Comments
Even more eloquently, Latham CJ in the Australian decision of Victoria Park Racing and Recreation Grounds Co. Ltd v. Taylor'' (1937) 58 CLR 479 and 498 said that if you are the first person to announce that a man has fallen off a bus, you cannot use the law of copyright to stop other people from announcing that fact. ''

Is that more eloquent? It's clearer, certainly, but I don't know that that constitutes eloquence. --Charles A. L. 15:53, Dec 10, 2003 (UTC)

 * Does this idea conflict with that of intellectual property? --anonymous
 * This article discusses copyright, which has an idea-expression divide. You may be thinking of trade secrets, which do not have an idea-expression divide. Perhaps you got confused by the use of the umbrella term "intellectual property", which lumps completely separate legal environments together; if so, this gives more weight to Mr. Stallman's arguments against the term. --Damian Yerrick 16:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Maps
How does the idea-expression divide relate to maps?

At one extreme you could look at a map that shows that Paris lies within the border of france and draw a box, label it "France" and put a dot in the middle somewhere to represent Paris. Surely that's fine, as you are merely re-expressing the idea, not copying the work.

So then you take a map and note that the coastline of an area goes from point (x1,y1) to (x2,y2) then to (x3,y3)... and back to (x1,y1) again. An you make your own map, using this information, that joins up those points.

Taking this to an extreme, you could get a computer to analyse where all the points are, convert them to a raw expression of the idea (as co-ordinates) and then draw your own map using those co-ordinates.

And how is that different from copying that map?

Ben Arnold 04:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * So you've made a map in the form of a polygon, but the map is not the territory. Your map has vertices; a territory bordered by natural features does not, instead appearing continuous at the classical scales used for cartography. I'd guess that in this case, the shape of the territory is the idea, and a polygon in some sort of GIS vector format, the choice of what internal bodies of water and what internal political boundaries to represent or omit, and how to label things, make up the expression. If you were to take or acquire aerial photographs, you could autotrace those and create a new work, where the creativity lies in your choice of autotrace program, its settings, and any manual touch-up that you do afterward. --Damian Yerrick 16:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Page name correct?
Is "idea-expression divide" the British usage? Most of the texts I've seen use "idea-expression dichotomy". Bryan 15:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Legal Question
in the first line it talks about the purpose of the law. I assume this means copyright law and not all law in general. this should be fixed if correct.

The topic Merger Doctrine - Copyright Law redirects to this page. Someone with a more complete education on the subject matter than I have should clarify this topic. "Merger Doctrine" redirecting to the Idea/Expression dichotomy page implies synonymous nature. However, the Merger Doctrine, as I understand it, relies most often not on Baker v. Selden, the case correctly cited as introducing the Idea/Expression distinction, but on Morrissey v. Proctor & Gamble (some 87 years later). This later doctrine doesn't so much distinguish between idea and expression and the protection afforded via copyright, rather it addresses the difficulty of affording any protection when the idea and expression merge to such an extent that only a finite range of possibilities exist by which the idea may reach expression. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgrutter (talk • contribs) 02:55, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Murky divide
I think it might be good if we had a section here on the places where it can get quite murky. The canonical cases are easy to divide into one or the other. But what about, say, writing a book that has extremely strong resemblances to the plot and characters of the Harry Potter series? One can say, "well, the idea of a wizard school for children, one of whom has a magic birthmark, and heavy glasses" is just an idea, but the US courts will probably rule it as infringement (as they have a number of times). In my mind this is where the idea/expression divide breaks down completely, when things like characters and general plots become "expressions" completely disconnected with whatever words are specifically written down on the page (in the sense that the resulting work would clearly be judged as "derivative"). In fact the whole problem of derivative works itself seems to heavily blur the idea/expression divide when applied to anything other than strict copying and pasting. Now this is all too much original research to be added to this page, but surely I'm not the only person to have thought of this or to have formulated it in this way. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Scènes à faire Versus merger doctrine
Merger doctrine is redirected here and I am not sure why. This article states that Scènes à faire and Merger doctrine are the same, "In the United States this is known as the merger doctrine...". The 9th Circuit Court gives a related but clear distinction between the two. Otr500 (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct. I did some fixing. But this article needs more work from somebody. BD2412 ? Edcolins ? Eastlaw ? Minor4th ? Otr500 ?
 * PraeceptorIP (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

International
While continental European copyright law (sometimes referred to by the French words "droit d'auteur") is different from American copyright law, it also recognises an "idea-expression dichotomy". Since this law is only partially harmonised, this dichotomy is documented in various national court cases. Rbakels (talk) 07:41, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Idea–expression distinction


text:
Mühldorf (district)

Mühldorf is a Landkreis (district) in Upper Bavaria, Germany. It is bounded by (from the north and clockwise) the districts of Landshut, Rottal-Inn, Altötting, Traunstein, Rosenheim, Ebersberg and Erding.

History
Most parts of the district have belonged to Bavaria from the 13th century on. The archbishopric of Salzburg possessed some estates in the region as well from the year 798. In 1803, when the clerical states of Holy Empire were dissolved, Bavaria annexed these estates.

Geography
The district is located in generally plain countryside on either bank of the river Inn.

Coat of arms
The coat of arms displays:
 * the heraldic lion of Salzburg
 * the heraldic lion of the Electorate of the Palatinate

title: Mühldorf (district)


text:
Nationalencyklopedin

Nationalencyklopedin ("The National Encyclopedia" in English), abbreviated NE, is a comprehensive contemporary Swedish-language encyclopedia with several hundred thousand articles. It is available both online and via a printed version.

History
The project was initiated in 1980 when a government committee suggested that negotiations be initiated with various publishers. A loan from the Government of Sweden of 17 million Swedish krona, which was repaid by December 1990, provided funding.

In August 1985, Bra Böcker in Höganäs became the publisher responsible for the project. The project specifications were for a modern reference work based on a scientific paradigm incorporating gender and environmental issues.

Pre-orders for the work were unprecedented; before the first volume was published in December 1989, 54,000 customers had ordered the encyclopedia. The last volume came out in 1996, with three supplemental volumes in 2000. 160,000 copies had been sold as of 2004.

Associated with the Nationalencyklopedin project are also:
 * NE:s Ordbok, a dictionary in three volumes (1995–1996)
 * NE:s Årsband, complementary volumes concerning current events and fast changing information distributed annually since 1997
 * NE:s Sverigeatlas, an atlas of Sweden (1998)
 * NE:s Världsatlas, a world atlas (1998)
 * NE-spelet, a quiz game with 8,000 questions (1999)

In 1997, the first digital form of the encyclopedia was released on six CD-ROMs (later on DVD as well), and in 2000 as an Internet subscription service. The online version contains the dictionary as well as an updated version of the original encyclopedia. It has 356,000 entries, 183,000 of which are encyclopedic articles. The service has been completed with several features not available in the printed version, such as a Swedish–English dictionary.

In 2018, after a decision to remove the authors' names from the byline of online articles, SVT reported the encyclopedia may be forced to remove thousands of articles due to copyright infringement unless the authors' names are added back.

title: Nationalencyklopedin


text:
User talk:Mmuk64

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Here are some useful links in case you haven't already found them:

 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

Tip: you can sign your name with ~

snoyes 16:05, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mmuk64


text:
Bombay Dreams

Bombay Dreams is a Bollywood-themed musical, with music by A. R. Rahman, lyrics by Don Black and the book by Meera Syal and Thomas Meehan, originally produced by Andrew Lloyd Webber. The London production opened in 2002 and ran for two years. The musical was later produced on Broadway in 2004.

Plot
The story centers around Akaash, a young man from the slums of Bombay who dreams of becoming the next big star in Bollywood. Fate steps in when a rich lawyer and his fiancée, an aspiring documentary filmmaker, arrive to prevent the demolition of Akaash's slum. Akaash quickly falls in love with the lawyer's fiancée, Priya, who happens to be the daughter of a famous Bollywood director. Complications arise as Akaash faces the reality of show business, fame, his love for Priya, and his obligations to his family, friends, and his Paradise slum.

The story also deals with the change of name from Bombay to Mumbai and the identity issues that this raises.

Musical numbers
London production

 * Act 1
 * "Bombay Awakes" – Ensemble
 * "Bombay Dreams" – Ensemble
 * "Like An Eagle" – Akaash, Ensemble
 * "Love's Never Easy" – Sweetie, Ensemble
 * Revised version of the song "Ishq Bina" from Taal
 * "Don't Release Me" – Madan, Ensemble
 * "Happy Endings" – Priya, Madan
 * Revised version of the song "Rangeela Re" from Rangeela
 * "Ooh La La" – Anupam, Kitty, Rani
 * Revised version of the song "Manna Madurai (Ooh La La La)" from Minsara Kanavu
 * "Like An Eagle (Reprise)" – Akaash
 * "Shakalaka Baby" – Akaash, Rani
 * Revised version of the song "Shakalaka Baby" from Mudhalvan
 * "Are You Sure You Want to Be Famous?" – Akaash, Rani, Ensemble
 * Revised version of the song "Sona Nahi Na Sahi" from One 2 Ka 4
 * "I Could Live Here" – Akaash
 * "Only Love" – Priya

 * Act 2
 * "Chaiyya Chaiyya" – Akaash, Rani, Ensemble
 * Revised version of the song "Chaiyya Chaiyya" from Dil Se..
 * "How Many Stars" – Priya, Akaash
 * "Salaam Bombay" – Akaash, Rani, Ensemble
 * "Closer Than Ever" – Sweetie, Akaash, Priya
 * Revised version of the song "Nahin Samne" from Taal
 * "Ganesh" – Ensemble
 * "The Journey Home" – Akaash
 * "Wedding Qawwali" – Vikram, Ensemble
 * "Bombay Sleeps" – Akaash, Priya, Ensemble

Broadway production

 * Act 1
 * "Salaam Bombay" – Akaash, Sweetie and Ensemble
 * "Bollywood" – Akaash and Ensemble
 * "Love's Never Easy" – Sweetie, Priya and Ensemble
 * "Lovely, Lovely, Ladies" – Rani and Ensemble
 * "Bhangra" – Akaash, Rani and Ensemble
 * "Shakalaka Baby" – Rani, Akaash and Ensemble
 * "I Could Live Here" – Akaash
 * "Is This Love?" – Priya
 * "Famous" – Madan, Rani, Akaash and Ensemble
 * "Love's Never Easy (Reprise)" – Priya and Sweetie

 * Act 2
 * "Chaiyya Chaiyya" – Akaash, Rani and Ensemble
 * "How Many Stars?" – Akaash and Priya
 * "Salaam Bombay (Reprise)" – Rani and Ensemble
 * "Hero" – Sweetie and Priya
 * "Ganesh Procession" – Ensemble
 * "The Journey Home" – Akaash
 * "Wedding Qawwali" – Ensemble

Productions
Bombay Dreams premiered in the West End at the Apollo Victoria Theatre on 19 June 2002 and closed in June 2004. The original cast included Preeya Kalidas as Priya, Raza Jaffrey as Akaash, Ayesha Dharker as Rani, Dalip Tahil as Madan, and Ramon Tikaram as Vikram.

The musical opened on Broadway at The Broadway Theatre on 29 April 2004 and closed on 1 January 2005 after 284 performances. The director was Steven Pimlott, with choreography by Farah Khan and Anthony Van Laast, and scenic and costume design by Mark Thompson. The cast featured Manu Narayan as Akaash and Madhur Jaffrey as Shanti. The plot, format and characters of Bombay Dreams were revised several times. The book of the musical was rewritten and many songs were cut and other songs added to the show for the Broadway run.

A new production produced by Atlanta's Theater of the Stars and the Independent Presenters Association started touring North America in February 2006 at the Orange County Performing Arts Center in Costa Mesa, California.

Reception
In the UK, the production grossed an estimated £5million at London's West End theatre by March 2004, equivalent to US$million. As of June 2004, the show was watched by over 1.5million people in the United Kingdom. In the United States, the production sold 552,954 tickets and grossed $22,437,579 at the Broadway Theatre by January 2005. Combined, the production sold over 2.1million tickets in the United Kingdom and Broadway theatre, and grossed approximately US$32 million at the West End and Broadway theatres.

The Original London Cast Album, composed by A. R. Rahman, received a Gold certification and sold 250,000 units in the United Kingdom. The album was also a top-selling record in India.

Nominations

 * Tony Award for Best Costume Design – Mark Thompson (nominee)
 * Tony Award for Best Choreography – Anthony Van Laast (nominee), Farah Khan (nominee)
 * Tony Award for Best Orchestrations – Paul Bogaev (nominee)
 * Drama Desk Award Outstanding Choreography (nominee)
 * Drama Desk Award Outstanding Orchestrations (nominee)
 * Drama Desk Award Outstanding Set Design of a Musical (nominee)
 * Drama Desk Award Outstanding Costume Design (nominee)

Film adaptation
On 14 May 2010, Marquee Pictures was supposed to produce a film adaptation of the musical with Deepa Mehta directing the film.

title: Bombay Dreams


text:
Lake Lahontan

Lake Lahontan was a large endorheic Pleistocene lake of modern northwestern Nevada that extended into northeastern California and southern Oregon. The area of the former lake is a large portion of the Great Basin that borders the Sacramento River watershed to the west.

The lake was named by Clarence King during the Geological Exploration of the Fortieth Parallel. The name honors Louis-Armand de Lom d'Arce de Lahontan, Baron de Lahontan, a French soldier and explorer.

History
At its peak approximately 12,700 years ago (during a period known as the Sehoo Highstand), the lake had a surface area of over 8500 sqmi, with its largest component centered at the location of the present Carson Sink. Near present day Pyramid Lake the depth of the lake was then about 900 ft and 500 ft at what is present day Black Rock Desert. Lake Lahontan, during this most recent glacial period, would have been one of the largest lakes in North America.

Climate change around the end of the Pleistocene epoch led to a gradual desiccation of ancient Lake Lahontan. The lake had largely disappeared in its extended form by about 9,000 years ago. As the surface elevation dropped, the lake broke up into series of smaller lakes, most of which rapidly dried up, leaving only a playa. These playas include the Black Rock Desert, the Carson Sink, and the Humboldt Sink. The only modern remnants existing as true lakes are Pyramid Lake and Walker Lake. Winnemucca Lake has been dry since the 1930s and Honey Lake periodically desiccates. The ancient shoreline is evidenced by tufa formations throughout the area.

Surprisingly, the watershed feeding Lake Lahontan is not thought to have been significantly wetter during its highstand than it is currently. Rather, its desiccation is thought to be mostly due to increase in the evaporation rate as the climate warmed. Recent computer simulations (using the DSSAM Model and other techniques) indicate, if precipitation and evaporation rates within the watershed were maintained at their historical yearly maximum and minimum, respectively, and if diversions of the Truckee River ceased, the Ice Age extent of Lake Lahontan might return.

Archaeological evidence along the shore indicates the existence of the lake coincided roughly with the first appearance of humans in the region. The Lahontan cutthroat trout evolved as a predator species within the waters of Lake Lahontan, feeding on native chub and sucker. This subspecies of cutthroat trout survives today in tributary rivers of the Great Basin, and has been reintroduced to Pyramid Lake and Walker Lake after being extirpated during the 20th century.

title: Lake Lahontan


text:
Northville

Northville may refer to several places:

In Canada:
 * Northville, Ontario, a community in municipality of Lambton Shores

In the United States:
 * Northville Township, LaSalle County, Illinois
 * Northville, Michigan
 * Northville Township, Michigan
 * Northville, Fulton County, New York
 * Northville, Suffolk County, New York
 * Northville, Ohio
 * Northville, South Dakota

title: Northville


text:
Arenal

Arenal may refer to:

People with the surname

 * Concepción Arenal (1820–1893), Spanish feminist writer and activist
 * Electa Arenal (1935–1969), Mexican muralist
 * Luis Arenal Bastar (c. 1900–1985), Mexican painter, engraver and sculptor
 * Elena Huerta de Arenal (1908–1997), Mexican muralist

Places

 * Arenal, Arizona, one of the 19th century Pima Villages
 * Arenal, Yoro, a municipality in Honduras
 * Arenal del Sur, a town in Bolívar Department, Colombia
 * Arenal d'en Castell, a small town in Es Mercadal, Minorca
 * Nuevo Arenal, a town and district in Tilarán Canton, Costa Rica
 * Arenal Airport, an airport serving La Fortuna, Costa Rica
 * Arenal Botanical Gardens, on the shore of Lake Arenal, Costa Rica
 * Arenal Bridge, a reinforced concrete bridge in Bilbao, Spain
 * Arenal District, Paita, Peru
 * Arenal River, Costa Rica, a tributary of the San Carlos River
 * Arenal Volcano, a volcano in Costa Rica
 * Lake Arenal, a lake in Costa Rica

Other uses

 * UD Arenal, a football team based in S'Arenal de Llucmajor, Balearic Islands

title: Arenal


text:
Beta Canis Minoris

Beta Canis Minoris (β Canis Minoris, abbreviated Beta CMi, β CMi), also named Gomeisa, is a star in the constellation of Canis Minor. In the night sky it is notable for its proximity to the prominent star Procyon.

Nomenclature
β Canis Minoris (Latinised to Beta Canis Minoris) is the star's Bayer designation.

The traditional name Gomeisa comes from the Arabic al-ghumaisa '  ("the bleary-eyed (woman)"), short for مرزم الغميصاء mirzam al-ghumaisa '  ("girdle of the bleary-eyed one"). In Arabic, the short form would be identical with the name of Procyon. In 2016, the International Astronomical Union organized a Working Group on Star Names (WGSN) to catalog and standardize proper names for stars. The WGSN's first bulletin of July 2016 included a table of the first two batches of names approved by the WGSN; which included Gomeisa for this star.

In Chinese, 南河 (Nán Hé), meaning South River, refers to an asterism consisting of β Canis Minoris, Procyon and Epsilon Canis Minoris. Consequently, β Canis Minoris itself is known as 南河二 (Nán Hé èr, the Second Star of South River).

Properties
From parallax measurements, the distance to this star is about 160 ± 10 ly. It has an apparent visual magnitude of 2.89, making it easily visible to the naked eye. Beta Canis Minoris has about 3.5 times the Sun's mass and is rotating rapidly with a projected rotational velocity of 210 km s−1, which gives a lower bound on the azimuthal rotational velocity along the star's equator. The actual rotation rate may be about once per day.

The stellar classification of this star is B8 Ve. A luminosity class V star belongs on the main sequence, which means it is generating energy through the thermonuclear fusion of hydrogen at its core. The star is radiating this energy from its outer envelope at an effective temperature of $160$, giving it a blue-white hue typical of B-type stars. An 'e' classification indicates that the spectrum contains emission lines, which means this is a Be star that is surrounded by a thin, circumstellar disk made of gaseous material ejected from the star. This hot, gaseous disk is about three times the radius of the star.

Variability
β Canis Minoris has long been suspected of variability, and in 1977 it was classified as a γ Cassiopeiae variable in the General Catalogue of Variable Stars. A number of studies have found no variation at all. While it shows little variation in brightness, it does display changes in the hydrogen emission coming from the gaseous disk but even those are less pronounced than in many other Be stars.

Examination with the Canadian MOST space telescope reveals changes in the brightness of β Canis Minoris at the milli-magnitude level. This variation has a cyclic pattern formed from multiple overlapping frequencies, with the dominant frequencies being 3.257 and 3.282 cycles per day. As such, it belongs to a class called slowly pulsating B-type (SPB) stars. Be stars that show these types of pulsation have been dubbed SPBe stars.

Possible companion
It is likely that Beta Canis Minoris is a close binary with a 170-day, eccentric orbit. The companion would have about 42% of the Sun's mass. The nature of the companion is unknown, but it is speculated that it could be a subdwarf O star remaining after binary interactions that spun up the Be primary. If confirmed, this would make it a member of the very rare Phi Persei Be+sdO-type systems.

title: Beta Canis Minoris