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Historicity of Jesus

The historicity of Jesus is the question of whether Jesus historically existed (as opposed to being a purely mythological figure). The question of historicity was generally settled in scholarship in the early 20th century. Today scholars agree that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea and the subsequent Herodian tetrarchy in the 1st century CE, upon whose life and teachings Christianity was later constructed, but a distinction is made by scholars between 'the Jesus of history' and 'the Christ of faith'.

There is no scholarly consensus concerning most elements of Jesus's life as described in the Bible stories, and only two key events of the biblical story of Jesus's life are widely accepted as historical, based on the criterion of embarrassment, namely his baptism, and his crucifixion (commonly dated to 30 or 33 CE). The historicity of supernatural elements like his purported miracles and the purported resurrection are deemed to be solely a matter of 'faith' or of 'theology', "about which no self-respecting historian could possibly have anything to say".

The idea that Jesus was a purely mythical figure has been, and is still, considered an untenable fringe theory in academic scholarship for more than two centuries, but according to one source it has gained popular attention in recent decades due to the growth of the Internet.

Academic efforts in biblical studies to determine facts of Jesus's life are part of the "quest for the historical Jesus", and several criteria of authenticity are used in evaluating the authenticity of elements of the Gospel-story. The criterion of multiple attestation is used to argue that attestation by multiple independent sources confirms his existence. Besides the gospels and the letters of Paul, non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include two mentions in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE).

Historical Jesus
Scholars regard the question of historicity as generally settled in scholarship in the early 20th century, and scholars agree that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea in the 1st century CE. Since the 18th century, three separate scholarly quests for the historical Jesus have taken place, each with distinct characteristics and based on different research criteria, which were often developed during that phase. Currently modern scholarly research on the historical Jesus focuses on what is historically probable, or plausible about Jesus.

Only two accepted facts of a historical Jesus

There is no scholarly consensus concerning most elements of Jesus's life as described in the Christian and non-Christian sources, and the only two events of this historical Jesus subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate (who officiated 26–36 AD).

Based on the criterion of embarrassment, scholars argue that the early Christian Church would not have invented the painful death of their leader. The criterion of embarrassment is also used to argue in favor of the historicity of the baptism of Jesus, given that John baptised for the remission of sins, although Jesus was viewed as without sin and this positioned John above Jesus.

Lightfoot Professor of Divinity James Dunn stated that these two facts "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical 'facts' they are obvious starting points for an attempt to clarify the what and why of Jesus' mission."

In his popular book Did Jesus Exist? (2012), American New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman explained: "Nearly all critical scholars agree at least on those points about the historical Jesus. But there is obviously a lot more to say, and that is where scholarly disagreements loom large – disagreements not over whether Jesus existed but over what kind of Jewish teacher and preacher he was."

A distinction is made between 'the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith', and the historicity of the supernatural elements of the latter narrative, including his purported miracles or resurrection, are outside the reach of the historical methods.

Fringe view: there was no historical Jesus
The Christ myth theory, which developed within the scholarly research on the historical Jesus in the 19th century, is, in Geoffrey W. Bromiley's words, the view that "the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology" possessing no "substantial claims to historical fact". Alternatively, Bart Ehrman (who himself rejects the Christ myth theory) summarises Earl Doherty's view as being "that no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed, that Christianity began with a belief in a spiritual, mythical figure, that the Gospels are essentially allegory and fiction, and that no single identifiable person lay at the root of the Galilean preaching tradition". David Gullotta states that modern-day interest in mythicism has been "amplified by internet conspiracy culture, pseudoscience, and media sensationalism". Casey and Ehrman note that many of the proponents of mythicism are either atheists or agnostics.

Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century: that the New Testament has no historical value with respect to Jesus's existence, that there are no non-Christian references to Jesus from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.

Virtually all scholars dismiss theories of Jesus's non-existence or regard them as refuted. In modern scholarship, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory and finds virtually no support from scholars.

Multiple attestation
The criterion of multiple attestation looks at the number of early sources that mention, and evaluates the reliability of those sources. To establish the existence of a person without any assumptions, one source from one author (either a supporter or opponent) is needed; for Jesus there are at least twelve independent sources from five authors in the first century from supporters and two independent sources from two authors from non-supporters.

There are Christian sources on the person of Jesus (the letters of Paul and the Gospels) and there are also Jewish and Roman sources (e.g. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger) that mention Jesus, and there are also many apocryphal texts that are examples of the wide variety of writings from early Christianity.

These additional sources are independent sources on Jesus's existence, and corroborate details found in other surviving sources as a "bedrock of historical tradition". Contemporary non-Christian sources in the first and second century never deny the existence of Jesus, and there is also no indication that Pagan or Jewish writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus. Taking into consideration that sources on other first century individuals from Galilee were also written by either supporters or enemies as well, the sources on Jesus cannot be dismissed.

Early dates of the Christian oral traditions
Biblical scholarship assumes that the gospel-stories are based on oral traditions and memories of Jesus. These traditions precede the surviving gospels by decades, going back to the time of Jesus and the time of Paul's persecution of the early Christian Jews, prior to his conversion.

According to Christopher M. Tuckett, most available sources are collections of early oral traditions about Jesus. He states that the historical value of traditions are not necessarily correlated with the later dates of composition of writings since even later sources can contain early tradition material. Theissen and Merz state that these traditions can be dated back well before the composition of the synoptic gospels, that such traditions show local familiarity of the region, and that such traditions were explicitly called "memory", indicating biographical elements that included historical references such as notable people from his era. According to Maurice Casey, some of the sources, such as parts of the Gospel of Mark, are translations of early Aramaic sources which indicate proximity with eyewitness testimony.

Paul's letters (generally dated to circa 48–62 CE) are the earliest surviving sources on Jesus, and Paul adds autobiographical details such as that he personally knew and interacted with eyewitnesses of Jesus such as his most intimate disciples (Peter and John) and family members (his brother James) starting around 36 CE.

Reliability of sources
Since the third quest for the historical Jesus, the four gospels and noncanonical texts have been viewed as more useful sources to reconstruct the life of Jesus compared to the previous quests.

On the quality of available sources, German historian of religion Hans-Joachim Schoeps argued that the Gospels are unsatisfactory as they were not written as detailed historical biographies, that the non-Christian sources provide no new information, and that the sources hopelessly intertwine history and legend, but present the views and beliefs of the early disciples and the Christian community.

However, evangelical New Testament scholars like Craig Blomberg argue that the source material on Jesus does correlate significantly with historical data.

Christian origins scholar Craig A. Evans argued that there are also archeological finds that corroborate aspects of the time of Jesus mentioned in the surviving sources, such as context from Nazareth, the High Priest Caiaphas' ossuary, numerous synagogue buildings, and Jehohanan, a crucified victim who had a Jewish burial after execution. Written sources and archeologist Ken Dark's excavations on Nazareth correlate with Jesus' existence, Joseph and Jesus' occupation as craftworkers, presence of literacy, existence of synagogues, Gospel accounts relating to Nazareth, and other Roman period sources on Nazareth.

Other historical persons in ancient sources
Historiographical approaches associated with the study of the poor in the past, such as microhistory, can help assess what type of sources can be reasonably expected in the historical record for individuals like Jesus. For instance, Justin Meggitt argues that since most people in antiquity left no sign of their existence, especially the poor, it is unreasonable to expect non-Christian sources to corroborate the specific existence of someone with Jesus's socio-economic status. Ehrman argues that the historical record for the first century was so lacking that no contemporary eyewitness reports for prominent individuals such as Pontius Pilate or Josephus survive. Theissen and Merz observe that even if ancient sources were to be silent on any individual, they would not impact their historicity since there are numerous instances of people whose existence is never doubted and yet were not mentioned by contemporary authors. For instance, Paul is not mentioned by Josephus or non-Christian sources; John the Baptist is not mentioned by Paul, Philo, or rabbinic writings; Rabbi Hillel is not mentioned by Josephus - despite him being a Pharisee; Bar Kochba, a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans is not mentioned by Dio Cassius in his account of the revolt.

With at least 14 sources by believers and nonbelievers within a century of the crucifixion, there is much more evidence available for Jesus than for other notable people from 1st century Galilee. Non-Christian sources do exist and they corroborate some details of the life of Jesus that are also found in New Testament sources. Classicist-numismatist Michael Grant argued that when the New Testament is analyzed with the same criteria used by historians on ancient writings that contain historical material, Jesus's existence cannot be denied any more than secular figures whose existence is never questioned.

Synoptic Gospels

The synoptic gospels are the primary sources of historical information about Jesus and of the religious movement he founded. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke recount the life, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of a Jew named Jesus who spoke Aramaic. There are different hypotheses regarding the origin of the texts because the gospels of the New Testament were written in Greek for Greek-speaking communities, and were later translated into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Scholars argue that the surviving gospels show usage of earlier independent written and oral sources that extended back to the time of Jesus's death, but did not survive. : "All of these written sources I have mentioned are earlier than the surviving Gospels; they all corroborate many of the key things said of Jesus in the Gospels; and most important they are all independent of one another. Let me stress the latter point. We cannot think of the early Christian Gospels as going back to a solitary source that “invented” the idea that there was a man Jesus. The view that Jesus existed is found in multiple independent sources that must have been circulating throughout various regions of the Roman Empire in the decades before the Gospels that survive were produced. Where would the solitary source that “invented” Jesus be? Within a couple of decades of the traditional date of his death, we have numerous accounts of his life found in a broad geographical span. In addition to Mark, we have Q, M (which is possibly made of multiple sources), L (also possibly multiple sources), two or more passion narratives, a signs source, two discourse sources, the kernel (or original) Gospel behind the Gospel of Thomas, and possibly others. And these are just the ones we know about, that we can reasonably infer from the scant literary remains that survive from the early years of the Christian church. No one knows how many there actually were. Luke says there were “many” of them, and he may well have been right. And once again, this is not the end of the story." (page 83) and "The reality appears to be that there were stories being told about Jesus for a very long time not just before our surviving Gospels but even before their sources had been produced. If scholars are right that Q and the core of the Gospel of Thomas, to pick just two examples, do date from the 50s, and that they were based on oral traditions that had already been in circulation for a long time, how far back do these traditions go? Anyone who thinks that Jesus existed has no problem answering the question: they ultimately go back to things Jesus said and did while he was engaged in his public ministry, say, around the year 29 or 30. But even anyone who just wonders if Jesus existed has to assume that there were stories being told about him in the 30s and 40s. For one thing, as we will see in the next chapter, how else would someone like Paul have known to persecute the Christians, if Christians didn’t exist? And how could they exist if they didn’t know anything about Jesus?" (page 85)" Aramaic sources have been detected in Mark's Gospel, which could indicate use of early or even eyewitness testimony when it was being written. Historians often study the historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles when studying the reliability of the gospels, as the Book of Acts was seemingly written by the same author as the Gospel of Luke.

Among contemporary scholars, there is consensus that the gospels are a type of ancient biography.

Pauline epistles
The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine were written in a span of a decade starting in the late 40s (i.e., approximately 20 to 30 years after the generally accepted time period of Jesus's death) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that include information about Jesus. Although Paul the Apostle provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus and states that he never knew Jesus personally, he does make it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person and a Jew. Moreover, he interacted with eyewitnesses of Jesus since he wrote about meeting and knowing James, the brother of Jesus and Jesus's apostles Peter and John. Additionally, there are independent sources (Mark, John, Paul, Josephus) affirming that Jesus actually had brothers.

Craig A. Evans and Ehrman argue that Paul's letters are among the earliest sources that provide a direct link to people who lived with and knew Jesus since Paul was personally acquainted with Peter and John, two of Jesus's original disciples, and James, the brother of Jesus. Paul's first meeting with Peter was around 36 AD. Paul is the earliest surviving source to document Jesus' death by crucifixion and his conversion occurred two years after this event. Paul mentioned details in his letters such as that Jesus was a Jew, born of the line of David, and had biological brothers. According to Simon Gathercole, Paul's description of Jesus's life on Earth, his personality, and family tend to establish that Paul regarded Jesus as a natural person, rather than an allegorical figure.

Josephus and Tacitus
Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process. From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate's governorship. Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of "Christians" still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists. Josephus was personally involved in Galilee when he was the commander of Jewish forces during the revolt against Roman occupation and trained 65,000 troops in the region.

Jesus is referenced by Josephus twice, once in Book 18 and once in Book 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94. On the first reference, the general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, in Book 18 most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery. On the second reference, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James".

Tacitus, in his Annals (written c. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44, describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that the founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, initially checked, broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself. The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate is both authentic and of historical value as an independent Roman source.

Mishnah
The Mishnah (c. 200) may refer to Jesus as it reflects the early Jewish traditions of portraying Jesus as a sorcerer or magician. Other references to Jesus and his execution exist in the Talmud, but they aim to discredit his actions, not deny his existence.

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Big Bounce

The Big Bounce hypothesis is a cosmological model for the origin of the known universe. It was originally suggested as a phase of the cyclic model or oscillatory universe interpretation of the Big Bang, where the first cosmological event was the result of the collapse of a previous universe. It receded from serious consideration in the early 1980s after inflation theory emerged as a solution to the horizon problem, which had arisen from advances in observations revealing the large-scale structure of the universe.

Inflation was found to be inevitably eternal, creating an infinity of different universes with typically different properties, suggesting that the properties of the observable universe are a matter of chance. An alternative concept that included a Big Bounce was conceived as a predictive and falsifiable possible solution to the horizon problem. Investigation continued as of 2022.

Expansion and contraction
The concept of the Big Bounce envisions the Big Bang as the beginning of a period of expansion that followed a period of contraction. In this view, one could talk of a "Big Crunch" followed by a "Big Bang" or, more simply, a "Big Bounce". This concept suggests that we could exist at any point in an infinite sequence of universes, or conversely, the current universe could be the very first iteration. However, if the condition of the interval phase "between bounces"—considered the "hypothesis of the primeval atom"—is taken into full contingency, such enumeration may be meaningless because that condition could represent a singularity in time at each instance if such perpetual repeats (cycles) were absolute and undifferentiated.

The main idea behind the quantum theory of a Big Bounce is that, as density approaches infinity, the behavior of quantum foam changes. All the so-called fundamental physical constants, including the speed of light in vacuum, need not remain constant during a Big Crunch, especially in the time interval smaller than that in which measurement may never be possible (one unit of Planck time, roughly 10−43 seconds) spanning or bracketing the point of inflection.

History
Big Bounce models were endorsed on largely aesthetic grounds by cosmologists including Willem de Sitter, Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, George McVittie, and George Gamow (who stressed that "from the physical point of view we must forget entirely about the precollapse period").

By the early 1980s, the advancing precision and scope of observational cosmology had revealed that the large-scale structure of the universe is flat, homogeneous, and isotropic, a finding later accepted as the cosmological principle to apply at scales beyond roughly 300 million light-years. This led cosmologists to seek an explanation to the horizon problem, which questioned how distant regions of the universe could have identical properties without ever being in light-like communication. A solution was proposed to be a period of exponential expansion of space in the early universe, which formed the basis of what became known as inflation theory. Following the brief inflationary period, the universe continues to expand at a slower rate.

Various formulations of inflation theory and their detailed implications became the subject of intense theoretical study. Without a compelling alternative, inflation became the leading solution to the horizon problem.

The phrase "Big Bounce" appeared in scientific literature in 1987, when it was first used in the title of a pair of articles (in German) in Stern und Weltraum by Wolfgang Priester and Hans-Joachim Blome. It reappeared in 1988 in Iosif Rozental's Big Bang, Big Bounce, a revised English-language translation of a Russian-language book (by a different title), and in a 1991 English-language article by Priester and Blome in Astronomy and Astrophysics. The phrase originated as the title of a novel by Elmore Leonard in 1969, shortly after increased public awareness of the Big Bang model with of the discovery of the cosmic microwave background by Penzias and Wilson in 1965.

The idea of the existence of a big bounce in the very early universe has found diverse support in works based on loop quantum gravity. In loop quantum cosmology, a branch of loop quantum gravity, the big bounce was first discovered in February 2006 for isotropic and homogeneous models by Abhay Ashtekar, Tomasz Pawlowski, and Parampreet Singh at Pennsylvania State University. This result has been generalized to various other models by different groups, and includes the case of spatial curvature, cosmological constant, anisotropies, and Fock quantized inhomogeneities.

Martin Bojowald, an assistant professor of physics at Pennsylvania State University, published a study in July 2007 detailing work related to loop quantum gravity that claimed to mathematically solve the time before the Big Bang, which would give new weight to the oscillatory universe and Big Bounce theories.

One of the main problems with the Big Bang theory is that there is a singularity of zero volume and infinite energy at the moment of the Big Bang. This is normally interpreted as a breakdown of physics as we know it; in this case, of the theory of general relativity. This is why one expects quantum effects to become important and avoid a singularity.

However, research in loop quantum cosmology purported to show that a previously existing universe collapses not to a singularity, but to a point where the quantum effects of gravity become so strongly repulsive that the universe rebounds back out, forming a new branch. Throughout this collapse and bounce, the evolution is unitary.

Bojowald also claimed that some properties of the universe that collapsed to form ours can be determined; however, other properties are not determinable due to some uncertainty principle. This result has been disputed by different groups, which show that due to restrictions on fluctuations stemming from the uncertainty principle, there are strong constraints on the change in relative fluctuations across the bounce.

While the existence of the Big Bounce has still to be demonstrated from loop quantum gravity, the robustness of its main features has been confirmed using exact results and several studies involving numerical simulations using high performance computing in loop quantum cosmology.

In 2006, it was proposed that the application of loop quantum gravity techniques to Big Bang cosmology can lead to a bounce that need not be cyclic.

In 2010, Roger Penrose advanced a general relativity-based theory which he called the "conformal cyclic cosmology". The theory explains that the universe will expand until all matter decays and ultimately turns to light. Since nothing in the universe would have any time or distance scale associated with it, the universe becomes identical with the Big Bang, resulting in a type of Big Crunch that becomes the next Big Bang, thus perpetuating the next cycle.

In 2011, Nikodem Popławski showed that a nonsingular Big Bounce appears naturally in the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity. This theory extends general relativity by removing a constraint of the symmetry of the affine connection and regarding its antisymmetric part, the torsion tensor, as a dynamical variable. The minimal coupling between torsion and Dirac spinors generates a spin-spin interaction which is significant in fermionic matter at extremely high densities. Such an interaction avoids the unphysical Big Bang singularity, replacing it with a cusp-like bounce at a finite minimum scale factor, before which the universe was contracting. This scenario also explains why the present Universe at the largest scales appears spatially flat, homogeneous, and isotropic, providing a physical alternative to cosmic inflation.

In 2012, a new theory of a nonsingular Big Bounce was constructed within the frame of standard Einstein gravity. This theory combines the benefits of matter bounce and ekpyrotic cosmology. Particularly, in the homogeneous and isotropic background cosmological solution, the BKL instability is unstable to the growth of anisotropic stress, which is resolved in this theory. Moreover, curvature perturbations seeded in matter contraction can form a nearly scale-invariant primordial power spectrum and thus provide a consistent mechanism to explain the cosmic microwave background (CMB) observations.

A few sources argue that distant supermassive black holes whose large size is hard to explain so soon after the Big Bang, such as ULAS J1342+0928, may be evidence for a Big Bounce, with these supermassive black holes being formed before the Big Bounce.

Critics
According to a study published in Physical Review Letters on May 23, the Big Bounce should have left marks in the primordial light, known as the cosmic microwave background (CMB), but comparing observations conducted by the Planck satellite with the simulated CMB in the case the Universe bounced on itself only once, that particular bounce signature was not found.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Big Bounce


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Talk:Merengue

I removed the phrase: <> since there are more distinctions than similarities. Salsa and Merengue may seem similar just like Bach an Mozart sound similar for those who don't care.
 * mik_ka@hotmail.com

I removed the reference to meringue being a Puerto Rican invention, as there's nothing about that on the meringue page. That's assuming it was referring to the same thing? sjorford 15:32, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

the following was removed "*A style of music from Hispaniola based from either Domininican or Haitian origin ; see merengue music "

The basis of merengue is from the island of hispanolia. It's roots are thought to be of Dominican or Haitian origin. It is popular on both sides of the island. What is the disagreement? 66.108.180.176 07:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * This is the navigation-type page called "Disambiguation page", with standard, simple format, not an article about Merengue, and detailed explanations do not belong here. `'Míkka 18:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Merengue


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Relics associated with Jesus

A number of alleged relics associated with Jesus have been displayed throughout the history of Christianity. While some individuals believe in the authenticity of Jesus relics, others doubt their validity. For instance, the sixteenth-century philosopher Erasmus wrote about the proliferation of relics, and the number of buildings that could be constructed from wooden relics claimed to be from the crucifixion cross of Jesus. Similarly, at least thirty Holy Nails were venerated as relics across Europe in the early 20th century. Part of the relics are included in the so-called Arma Christi ("Weapons of Christ"), or the Instruments of the Passion.

Some relics, such as remnants of the crown of thorns, receive only a modest number of pilgrims, while others, such as the Shroud of Turin, receive millions of pilgrims, including Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis.

As Christian teaching generally states that Christ was assumed into heaven corporeally, there are few bodily relics apart from those described as being removed or expelled from Christ's body prior to his ascension, such as the Holy Foreskin of Jesus or the blood of the Oviedo Shroud.

The True Cross

The "True Cross" refers to the actual cross used in the Crucifixion of Jesus. Today, many fragments of wood are claimed as True Cross relics, but it is hard to establish their authenticity. The story of the fourth-century discovery of the True Cross was reported in Jacobus de Voragine's The Golden Legend published in 1260, that included the lore of saints venerated at the time.

Tradition and legend attribute the discovery of the True Cross to Helena, mother of Constantine the Great who went to Palestine during the fourth century in search of relics. Eusebius of Caesarea was the only contemporary author to write about Helena's journey in his Life of Constantine. But Eusebius did not mention the True Cross, although he dwelt on the piety of Helena and her reporting the site of the Holy Sepulchre. In the fifth century writings by Socrates Scholasticus, Sozomen and Theodoret report on the finding of the True Cross.

Pieces of the purported True Cross, including half of the INRI inscription tablet, are preserved at the basilica Santa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome. Other small pieces of the True Cross are reportedly preserved in hundreds of other European churches. The authenticity of the relics and the accuracy of reports of finding the True Cross is not accepted by all Christians. The belief in the Early Christian Church tradition regarding the True Cross is generally restricted to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. The medieval legends of the True Cross provenance differ between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition. These churches honour Helena as a saint, as does also the Anglican Communion.

Acheiropoieta
A number of acheiropoieta (lit. 'made without hand'; icons not made by hand) images reported to be of the face or body of Jesus impressed on cloth have been displayed. In many cases these images are subject to intense debate and speculation. Although devotions to the face of Jesus are practiced, the term "Holy Face of Jesus" relates to the specific devotions approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1895 and Pope Pius XII in 1958 for the image from the Shroud of Turin.

Shroud of Turin

The Shroud of Turin is the best-known and most intensively studied relic of Jesus.

In 1988, radiocarbon dating determined that the shroud was from the Middle Ages, between the years 1260 and 1390.

Sudarium of Oviedo
The Sudarium of Oviedo is a bloodstained cloth, measuring 84 × 53 cm, curated in the Cámara Santa of the Cathedral of San Salvador, Oviedo, Spain. The Sudarium (Latin for "sweat cloth") is purportedly the cloth wrapped around the head of Jesus Christ after he died, noted in the Gospel of John (20:6–7).

The Sudarium is soiled and crumpled, with dark flecks that are symmetrically arranged but do not form an image as with the Shroud of Turin. Proponents for the relic's authenticity, such as Vatican archivist Msgr Giulio Ricci, contend that both cloths covered the same man.

Image of Edessa
The Image of Edessa is also known as the Mandylion. Two images are claimed to be the Mandylion: the Holy Face of Genoa at the Church of St. Bartholomew of The Armenians in Genoa and the Holy Face of San Silvestro, curated in the Church of San Silvestro in Capite in Rome until 1870, and now in the Matilda Chapel of the Vatican Palace. That the Mandylion is in fact the Shroud of Turin is the subject of debate.

Veil of Veronica
The Veil of Veronica, used to wipe the sweat from Jesus' brow as he carried the cross, is claimed to bear the likeness of the face of Christ. Today, several relics are claimed to be the Veil of Veronica, with several age-old copies also being venerated.

Rome
An image kept in Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome since the 14th century is purported to be the Veil of Veronica revered in the Middle Ages. The most detailed recorded inspection in the 20th century occurred in 1907 when Jesuit art historian Joseph Wilpert inspected the image.

The Hofburg Palace in Vienna has a copy of the Veil of Veronica, identified by the 1617 AD signature of the secretary of Pope Paul V, during whose reign a series of six copies of the veil were made.

Alicante
The image at the Monastery of the Holy Face in Alicante, Spain was acquired by Pope Nicholas V from relatives of the Byzantine Emperor in 1453 and placed in Alicante in 1489.

Siena
The Jaén Cathedral in Spain has a copy of the Veronica which probably dates from 14th century Siena, known as the Santo Rostro and acquired by Bishop Nicholas de Biedma.

Manoppello
In 1999, Father Heinnrich Pfeiffer announced at a press conference in Rome that he had found the Veil in the Capuchin monastery in the village of Manoppello, Italy, where it had been since 1660. This Veil is discussed in Paul Badde's 2010 book The Face of God. Characteristics evidenced during 3D processing of the Manoppello Image have been reported.

Nativity and childhood

Wooden pieces claimed to be remnants of the manger of the baby Jesus reside in the Holy Crib reliquary at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome. The relic consists of five narrow pieces of sycamore wood, which tradition holds to have been brought from the Holy Land either by Empress Helena (see 326-28 pilgrimage), or in the time of Pope Theodore I (642-649). In 2019, a fragment of the crib was removed from the Holy Crib reliquary and placed on permanent display at the Church of Saint Catherine in Bethlehem.

St. Paul's Monastery on Mount Athos claims to have relics of the Gifts of the Magi, while in Croatia, Dubrovnik's cathedral claims to have the swaddling clothes the baby Jesus wore during the presentation at the Temple.

Last Supper knife
The knife used by Jesus during the Last Supper was also a matter of veneration in the Middle Ages, according to the 12th-century Guide for Pilgrims to Santiago de Compostela. According to French traveler Jules-Léonard Belin the knife used by Jesus to slice bread was permanently exhibited in the Logetta of St Mark's Campanile in Venice.

Holy Chalice (Holy Grail)
The Holy Chalice is the container Jesus used at the Last Supper to serve wine (Matthew 26:27–28).

Several Holy Chalice relics are reported in the legend of the Holy Grail, though not part of Catholic tradition. Of the existing chalices, only the Santo Cáliz de Valencia (Holy Chalice of the Cathedral of Valencia) is recognized as a "historical relic" by the Vatican, although not as the actual chalice used at the Last Supper. Though not claiming the relic's authenticity, both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have venerated this chalice at the Cathedral of Valencia.

Crown of Thorns
The relics of the Passion presented at Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris include a piece of the True Cross from Rome as delivered by Helena, along with a Holy Nail and the Crown of Thorns. The Gospel of John tells that, in the night between Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, Roman soldiers mocked Jesus by placing a thorny crown on his head (John 19:12). The crown is a circle of cane bundled together and held by gold threads. The thorns were attached to this braided circle, which measured 21 cm in diameter. The seventy thorns were reportedly divided up between the Byzantine emperors and the Kings of France.

The accounts of pilgrims to Jerusalem report the Crown of Thorns. In 409, Paulinus of Nola states the Crown was kept in the basilica on Mount Zion in Jerusalem. In 570, Anthony the Martyr reports the Crown of Thorns in the Basilica of Zion. Around 575, Cassiodorus wrote, "Jerusalem has the Column, here, there is the Crown of Thorns!" Between the 7th and the 10th centuries, the Crown of Thorns was moved to the Byzantine emperors' chapel in Constantinople for safekeeping. In 1238, the Latin Emperor Baldwin II of Constantinople pawned the relics for credit to a Venetian bank.

Louis IX, the king of France redeemed the Crown from the Venetian Bank. On 10 August 1239, the king deposited 29 relics in Villeneuve-l'Archevêque. On 19 August 1239, the relics arrived in Paris. Wearing a simple tunic and with bare feet, the King placed the Crown of Thorns and other relics in the palace chapel in a structure he commissioned. During the French revolution, the relics were stored in the National Library. After the Concordat in 1801, the relics were given to the archbishop of Paris who placed them in the Cathedral treasury on 10 August 1806. Since then, these relics have been conserved by the canons of the Metropolitan Basilica Chapter, who are in charge of venerations, and guarded by the Knights of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. Napoleon I and Napoleon III each offered reliquaries for the crown of thorns. They were on display at Notre-Dame Cathedral during scheduled religious ceremonies, until a serious fire struck the cathedral on 15 April 2019.

Crucifixion

Many relics currently displayed result from the journey of Helena, the mother of Constantine the Great, to Syria Palaestina in the 4th century. The authenticity of many of these relics is questioned. For instance, the Holy Nails brought back by Helena, some believe the Catholic Encyclopedia notes are problematic based on the number of claimed relics:

"Very little reliance can be placed upon the authenticity of the thirty or more holy nails which are still venerated, or which have been venerated until recent times, in such treasuries as that of Santa Croce in Rome, or those of Venice, Aachen, Escurial, Nuremberg, Prague, etc. Probably the majority began by professing to be facsimiles which had touched or contained filings from some other nail whose claim was more ancient."

Many churches claim to have relics from the Crown of Thorns placed on the head of Jesus by the soldiers prior to his crucifixion.

The Scala Sancta, the stairs from Pontius Pilate's praetorium, ascended by Jesus during his trial, were brought to Rome by Helena of Constantinople in the 4th century according to tradition.

The Basilica of the Holy Blood in Bruges, Belgium, claims a specimen of Christ's blood on a cloth in a phial, given by Thierry of Alsace after the 12th century.

Other claimed relics, based on the Crucifixion of Christ include:

 * The Holy Coat: The possession of the seamless garment of Christ (tunica inconsultilis; John 19:23), for which the soldiers cast lots at the Crucifixion, is claimed by the cathedral of Trier, Germany, and by the parish church of Argenteuil, France. The Argenteuil church claims that their Holy Coat was brought by Charlemagne.
 * The crucifixion site called Golgotha, is in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. Inside the church the crucifixion site consists of a pile of rock about 7 m long by 3 m wide by 4.8 m.
 * The Iron Crown of Lombardy and Bridle of Constantine are reported to be made from the Holy Nails.
 * The Holy Lance is the spear used by the Roman soldier Longinus to pierce Jesus' side when he was on the cross.
 * The Holy Sponge, is reported to be in church Santa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome.
 * The Column of the Flagellation, which Jesus was tied to during the Flagellation of Christ, is reportedly in the Basilica of Saint Praxedes in Rome.

Bodily relics
Christian teaching states that Christ ascended into heaven corporeally. Therefore, the only parts of his body available for veneration are those obtained prior to the Ascension. At various points in history, a number of churches in Europe have claimed to possess the Holy Prepuce, Jesus' foreskin from his Circumcision; tears shed by Christ when mourning Lazarus; the blood of Christ shed during the crucifixion; a milk tooth that fell out of the mouth of Jesus at the age of 9; beard hair, head hair, Christ's nails. A section of the Holy Umbilical Cord believed to remain from the birth of Christ is currently in the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran.

title: Relics associated with Jesus


text:
Talk:Faust

Goethe POV
"... Goethe's later Faust, which may be considered the more definitive classic work" - why definitive? Definitive of what? Why is it more of a classic than Marlowe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)
 * The trick is to consult literature on the question, and then cite what you found. It's easy. --dab (𒁳) 07:42, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Gretchen in Goethe's Faust
The name of Faust's first love in the play is Margarethe wich is commonly nicknamed Gretchen. Like Bob for Robert. I think it would be more appropriate to use her christian name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.188.206.62 (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Origins
Not sure how important it is, but as far as I know, Faust was a late medieval - early modern restatement of "the Devil(demon) and the Smith", which as far as I know is the oldest parable in the western indo-european oral history. The green man symbolism is older, but the myth is lost as other than elves and faires etc. I think it's important for the Faust story, because it demonstrates that the faustian Archetype is essentially eternal. (Forge as fires of hell etc. Metalworking = magic.)  --2601:188:4100:1304:844E:7E4F:F165:96E7 (talk) 15:39, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Source
What is the story behind the anonymous account in the form of a chapbook? There aren't any fragments anymore, or can they still be digitized and uploaded to WikiSource? As for the translation, if P.F. Gentleman's work doesn't exist anymore, what year was it most probably destroyed? During Allied bombing in WWII? Or earlier, during one of the Napoleonic Wars? Depending on where the fragments were discovered, might make it less probable that either Marlowe or Goethe got his hands on it. So long as we are talking about unpreserved works, it makes just as much sense to say that separate versions of the legend of the Doctor of Paris existed, alternately supplying inspiration to Jacob Bidermann to refine his Cenodoxus as it did for Goethe to come along and draft his Faust.

General
Okay my ex believes himself to be Mephestophilos or however ya'll spell that....what the crap? What is the story behind mephesto. He think's he's some kind of demon here to bring the world back to which it came from. --K-os

You just cannot seriously say that a tale of selling one's soul to the devil 'has some base in history' any more than 'ascending to heaven on the back of an eagle' has some basis in aerodynamics. User:Wetman

 * I don't the article means to suggest that the bit about diabolic soul commerce actually happened to an historical figure - it's just that Faust-the-character's roots do seem to lie in a real person, so in that sense the tale does indeed have some basis in history. --Camembert

You have to take in to consideration the time period. Nearly everything was related to heaven or hell in some way. So when you come across a man who, in societies eyes, have pledged their lives to sin and almost pride themselves in it, they would think you were in league with the devil. User:NexNecis

 * Actually I think the most obvious source of the "Faustus" story is in St. Augustine's Confessions, in which Augustine flirts with the religion of Manichaeism before becoming a Catholic Christian. Manichaeism is remembered most often for its belief in a "good" spiritual world at odds with an "evil" material world, a view which Christianity has both been influenced by and supposedly officially rejects as a pernicious heresy. Augustine ultimately decided that good has substance but evil has no substance of its own, and is only void. Faustus was a Manichaean bishop with whom Augustine was acquainted and ultimately disappointed. It would be difficult to overstate the influence of Augustine on Christian thought and European intellectual history in general, so "Confessions" is not some arcane piece of writing. Augustine's Faustus fits the mold of someone whom many Christians would say had been tempted and misled by a competing/corrupting body of occult knowledge; the German Faustus story obviously translated this to contemporary kinds of occult knowledge like astrology and alchemy. This casts doubt on criticisms such as that of atheist thinker Bertrand Russell (in his essay "A Free Man's Worship") that the Faustus story is specifically an attack on science and freedom of mind; certainly in Augustine's Confessions it's a matter of one religion versus another and not an attack on rationality or intellectualism in and of itself. --Elizdelphi 19:18, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Star Wars Ep. III
I think more than a few people have seen clear influence of the Faust tale on Anakin Skywalker's evolution into Darth Vader, and George Lucas is on record in an interview admitting as such. - knoodelhed 04:38, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Discerning some Faustian element in the film is quite something else from claiming that the film interprets the Faust legend or alludes to it. What I find through Google is a handful of people who say that Palpatine plays Mephisto to Anakin's Faust (no one seems to develop this so far as to ask whether Padme is Gretchen, which speaks to a degree of superficiality in exploring or developing this thought). I went through a number of these links, and although a handful are relatively analytic, the references to Faust are themselves passing allusions. Lucas may claim inspiration from the Faust legend, but it's rather more difficult toI a say that Lucas actually develops or even substantiates this in the film as an allusion. Perhaps the epigraph of the film might be Mark 8:36, but the allusion to Faust seems an inference at best vis-a-vis the film. Returning to Gretchen, perhaps the allusion to Faust might be plausible if Anakin's emotional tie to Padme was written with genuine facility or if we had reason to suspect that it the means of a manipulation arcing further across the prequels. Buffyg 17:55, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that Star Wars Ep. III is at least more acceptable than Oscar Wilde's "The Picture of Dorian Grey." As far as I can remember, there are no specifically Faustian references in that work either. He also doesn't even exchange his soul for knowledge, like Anakin. He exchanges it for eternal beauty. We should either include both or exclude both, but to prefer the Wilde over Ep. III seems like mere literary snobbery. - mrchops10 23:59, 3 Oct 2005

 * I vote for excluding both and then some. We need to discern what was merely influenced by Faust and the Faust tales/legends from what is actually an interpretation of the Faust tale.  For instance, what does Lost Highway have to do with Faust?  Certainly there's no real soul selling with the main characters in Master and Margarita, but there are bargains made with the devil, and I feel that's wholly absent in Lost Highway, and quite tenuous in Heart of Darkness. [User:The Edit Competitor|The Edit Competitor] 24 Jun 2006

 * I would side more with explaining the reference rather than excluding particular works since I don't see an objective criteria for inclusion. — goethean ॐ 14:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Lucas said in the Ep. III DVD commentary that Anakin "makes a deal with the Devil." That's pretty much it.  If people see that as a reference to Faust then, sure, include it.

 * I don't think either should be included. They both use only the basic premise of someone selling their soul and don't refer directly to the Faust myth. This is an often-used narrative structure, there's no need to list every single text that uses it. I've added John Banville to the list as his novel Mefisto is based on Faust. If a citation is needed, it is described as a reworking of Faust on the back cover of the book. davekeeling 11:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Reference in V for Vendetta
The comic book V for Vendetta, by Alan Moore and David Lloyd, makes reference to Faust and the "deal" he made.
 * And?

What the hell is the "deal" that is being referred to? ...... smart ass — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.219.245.222 (talk) 06:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Meme?
Wtf? Myths as memes? What is that comment doing in this piece?

"fist"
The name is probably unrelated to the German for "fist". It is rather, a Latin name, faustus "auspicious". Therefore, Faust is "Germanized" from Faustus, not Faustus "Latinized" from Faust. At least, to claim either is not trivial and would need some sort of reference. dab (ᛏ) 17:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Since the Faustian legend probably descended to us from an earlier, unpreserved Latin document predating the anonymously written Historia von D. Iohann Fausten (1587) you may be right. That would certainly tend to connect the Faustian legend very closely to that of the legend of Cenodoxus, and the story's divergence would naturally follow the division in Germany between the Catholics and the Protestants.

Drum Corps inclusion (Music)
As part of the 2006 DCI Season, Phantom Regiment's show is entitled "Faust" and consists of Scythian Suite by Sergei Prokofiev, Ave Maria by Franz Biebl, Piano Concerto by John Corigliano, and Gustav Mahler's Symphony No. 2 ("Resurrection"). Should this be included in the music section as reference to Faust?

It has been included but someone was under the impression that it was original music. I have corrected that error.

Simply performing the music of another composer adds nothing to the historical understanding of Faust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.54.186 (talk) 16:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Another band
Portuguese metal band Moonspell has a song called "Mephisto". "I can teach you wonders if you give me your soul."

Me Phisto philos
Are there any sources for the suggestion that Mephisto comes from "me Phisto philos", or is this original research on the part of whoever added it? —Angr 11:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Kamelot
Kamelot currently shows up twice in the 'popular music' section. Is there any valid reason why it's listed twice? I don't konw which one should stay, but at least I fixed the formatting on the links in both of them. --Googleaseerch 04:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Works which retell or allude to the Faust tale
I have tagged this section with, for it just about lists every reference to Faust under the sun. The title, I think, is a signpost for drive-by editors to leave their mark on wikipedia by adding pointless references. It should perhaps be retitled to emphasise stricter criteria. All other references can be moved to Crap with some reference, however important, to Faust and we can assign it to Fancruft and Drive-by-editing Wikiproject. Thoughts? Brainmuncher 08:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Faust play
Steveynclan 21:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC) to whom this may concern: salutations, i am interested in the works of anna bijns; to be specific, her dutch faust play. can anyone tell me how and where i might find this script work?? sincerely, steve

 * I don't know, but the play is entitled Mary of Nijmeghen. Brainmuncher 04:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I would suggest adding a novel to the list of works based on the Faust legend: Loving Mephistopheles by Miranda Miller( Peter Owen 2007).Optimist2008 (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

why the writers?
why does it list Oscar Wilde, Klaus Mann, etc... and not The Picture of Dorian Grey, etc... Even though (in Oscar Wilde's case) it is his only work, it still should not be a link to the author, Oscar Wilde did not make a deal with the devil... Dorian Grey did... not that it's confusing or anything. Is there a reason the books aren't listed there? (this is all in reference to the end of the first paragraph). --66.134.52.222 05:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

that was me that said that... Sorry, forgot to sign in before. --illumi 05:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Another source
Chaucer's FRIAR'S TALE from CANTERBURY TALES might be considered another source for the "deal with the devil" idea. A con man befriends a demon and advises him to seize any object that has been cursed by taking "damn it" or "to hell with it" literally. Later, when the con man tries to extort money from an innocent woman, she curses him, and the demon seizes the con man's soul, following the man's own advice.

I would also like to point out that the whole Faust concept depends on the notion of a demon's having power independent of God. In Dante's theology as expressed in THE DIVINE COMEDY, for example, Satan is helpless and the demons serve God by punishing sinners; under this theology the Faust story could never have occurred. Evidentally new ideas arose between Dante's time and Chaucer's. CharlesTheBold 22:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Well said SamanthaG 20:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Job
Maybe it would be worth it to note the similarities between the Book of Job and the story of Faust? They both begin with God and the devil basically making a bet concerning whether a person will have faith in God, more or less. Maybe it's a bit far-fetched. Any thoughts? 66.32.164.14 (talk) 21:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

 * If you have a 3rd-party source that compares the two, it would be a candidate to add to the article. Otherwise, it is original research and cannot be added, no matter how interesting or insightful it might be :) --Jaysweet (talk) 21:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Such may be seen as original research and not fit for this venue. Unless there are notable verifiable sources which make this comparison, and such a viewpoint accepted by a majority or significant minority.  See if you can find anything. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 21:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are some links:

--a sentence in this says "Mephisto and God collaborate in exactly the same way that Jahvé and Satan do at the beginning of the Book of Job."

--has a section entitled "Influence of the Book of Job"

--mentions a German play in which similarities between Faust and Job are emphasized

--according to this, the Prologue in Heaven is "modeled on the Book of Job"

I hope these are any good

66.32.164.14 (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Johann Fust
While I'm not sure if Fust is indeed a source of the Faust legend, I am very sure that I can find multiple reliable sources claiming that, so I added it. If you're sure that I'm wrong and have sources to back it up, feel free to change it. superlusertc 2008 July 19, 07:48 (UTC)

Bedazzled
The Peter Cook and Dudley moore film "Bedazzled" (1968) was essentially a comic retelling of the faust legend. is this worth inclusion? i find it more noteworthy than the fact in Ghostrider nicholas cage briefly reads the book 89.241.6.9 (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Faust in episode of Wishbone
The PBS kids show Wishbone displays the story of Faust in one episode "Fleabitten Bargain", please add it if you like... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wishbone_episodes Dragonblades (talk)

The Apple
Starring Catherine Mary Stewart and George Gilmour. Director: Menahem Golan. Faust story. German production by Golan/Globus. Distributed by MGM Home Entertainment as DVD with PG Rating and released 2004.08.24 Old Testament movie in a disco-musical format. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080380/usercomments http://www.slantmagazine.com/Film/film_review.asp?ID=1208 --Sponsion (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Story
Shouldn't this page include a summary of the legend or of its main varients? If anyone knows the story could they please add it? IndridCold13 (talk) 08:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't a bad idea, though I'm only familiar with Marlowe's version, so I really can't do this. Perhaps we should plan such a section before adding it. superlusertc 2009 August 07, 06:20 (UTC)

Paracelsus notes dubious
"Sources of the legend" sections notes an edition of Goethe's version claims Paracelsus was used as a model for the character. This may be true, but we go on to say that "Parcelsus' works were copied by his fellow Rosicrucians and became the foundation of much scientific investigation. The Dictionary of Scientific Biography calls him 'a great doctor, whose influence has been enormous.' "

Paracelsus was an occult alchemist. His claims were generally fantastical and based more on philosophy and superstition than science, not unlike the Daoist "alchemists." He is especially notable for claiming spirits and artificial humans could be created by putting horse shit in jars.

I recommend deleting this sentence. 67.22.255.19 (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

In Our Time
Rich Farmbrough, 03:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC).

Death Note
Death Note seems to borrow heavily from the plot, and imagery.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.148.136 (talk) 08:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

 * I can confirm that the plot contains many similarities to that of Faust's, mainly the protagonist sacrificing his humanity to achieve happiness. Indydegrees1 (talk) 11:35, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

 * The film Bad Influence clearly borrowed from the Faust/Mephisto motive as well. Rob Lowe's sneaky, charming character Alex invites the young, diffident white-collar manager Michael (James Spader), who has a well-paid junior exec job but barely exists outside of it, to take a tour of the flashy nightlife of late '80s yuppie/underground New York and get what he dreams of, go get it - then he traps him. seeing to that the newcomer wakes up next to a woman (a high-class escort, I think) who's just been killed hours after the two made love. Over the course of the film, Alex becomes more and more of a dark mirror of the white-collar man's suppressed or dirty desires, and at the same time his forceful master. 83.254.151.33 (talk) 11:52, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Attention Wikipedia Editor(s)
This article is the weirdest page I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Every link on the page is an external link, and apparently Wikipedia cannot inform me on the term Faust or Faustian. At first I thought it was a disambiguation page, but it is not. I question the validity of why this page exists and think it should be deleted.Bcwilmot (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Amazing, ended up here on the same day with the same thought. Reformatting to a disambig. page would probably be the easiest way to clean this up, assuming it isn't deleted. 76.16.242.35 (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Nope. Someone vandalized it a few minutes ago. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 00:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Overhaul needed
Faust merits a better entry! I do not have time to make edits at the moment, but this is fair warning: by any scholarly standard, this article in its present state is unacceptable. The lack of historical data, literary research, and overall presentation qualify this entry as one in sore need of development and rewriting. Anyone care to step up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skelbe-stin (talk • contribs) 00:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Soul Cartel
Soul Cartel is a manwha highly and obviously influenced by Faustian stories two of the main characters are none other than a reborn Faust and Mephistopheles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Cartel

"Faustian" (or "Faustian bargain")
In the 1st 'graph of the lead, we said
 * Faust and Faustian imply a situation in which an ambitious person surrenders moral integrity in order to achieve power and success for a delimited term.

A more ambitious editor could verify whether EB ' s wording provides actual verification, but i'm more concerned about the formatting for the moment: Faust is the work, but the context implies the intent that "a Faust" (i've added the emphasis) refers to someone like the namesake of the medieval book (and to the book Faust itself), i.e. a person, not a work; the bold-facing is justified bcz Faustian is a Rdr to here, and thus functions as an "alternate title" for the topic, calling for its first mention to be bolded for those entering the article via that Rdr (and thus expecting "Faustian" to appear in bold somewhere in the lead section -- even tho i'm inclined to argue it should thus be worked into in the lead sentence). But the page "Faustian" refers to is a (quasi-)article, not even a quasi-work, and also deserves no italics. Thus i edit to
 * Faust and Faustian imply....

--Jerzy•t 14:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

"Appropriations" of the ("real"?) Faust
The professional writer who is my humanities consultant joins me in considering "adaptations" a better word than "appropriations" to describe works inspired by an earlier work. Other opinions? --Jerzy•t 15:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

One silly question
What is Faust's first name? There is another article about Johann Georg Faust, but is a first name used in the fictional works as well? ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:41, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

 * This article is just broken. The Faustbuch tradition sets in around 1590 and is clear that Faust is "Johann [Georg] Faust". The problem is that no reliable biographical data is available, and it is possible that this was a pseudonym used by more than one person. It is undeniable that occult/magical books have been printed under this name in 1505, so someone was "Dr. Faust" with a floruit at that time. ("In the light of records of an activity spanning more than 30 years, it has been suggested that there were two itinerant magicians calling themselves Faustus, one Georg, active ca. 1505 to 1515, and another Johann, active in the 1530s")
 * The "Johannes Fust" thing is just an obscure 1980s academic idea of who else may have influenced the later tradition.
 * The way this should work is that
 * Faust should be the main article about the (modern) literary character
 * Faustbuch is on the early modern publication history
 * Johann Georg Faust is on the question of historicity and biography; yes, there may or may not have been two "Fausts" and it isn't possible to decide the question with certainty. This doesn't mean it isn't possible to write a coherent article about what is known about the historicity of the person (or persons).
 * --dab (𒁳) 07:42, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Beethoven's Last Night
The album "Beethoven's Last Night" by Trans-Siberian Orchestra tells a story that is clearly largely based on Faust, so shouldn't it be added to the "Music" section?131.156.156.23 (talk) 10:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I just discovered that the article for "Beethoven's Last Night" on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven%27s_Last_Night) is included under the category "Works Based on the Faust Legend", so clearly it has already been acknowledged elsewhere.131.156.156.23 (talk) 10:16, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

"Faustus" in Augustines "Confessions"
Hallo thank you for your edit, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate here: The article, as stated in the beginning, is concerned with the "German legendary character". This cannot be the one of Augustine, at whose time there was no Germany and (for all we know) no German legend about Faust. As stated in the article (and in agreement which what I've read in the literature), the German legends are based on the historical Faust character living in the Renaissance (15th and 16th century). Therefore, I think that the sentence regarding the bishop (from antiquity) by name of "Faustus" should be removed unless one can also give evidence that this was a source for some of the Faust characters described here. There were many other historical figures named Faustus in that time. --Qcomp (talk) 17:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I've looked for references that link Faustus the Manichean about who Augustine writes to the legendary character and could not find any. Since the name Faustus is not that rare and no relation besides the name was provided, I have removed the sentence again from the main article. --Qcomp (talk) 12:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * --11614soup 13:22, 14 February 2018 (UTC) I would counter that all these Germans read Augustine's confessions and could certainly decided to create a song called sympathy for the Faustus.

Faustus was a rather wide-spead Roman name, because it means "favorable, fortunate, auspicious, prosperous, lucky". The feminine version of the name is Fausta. See: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=faustus1

"faustus1 faustus, a, um, adj. for favostus, from faveo; lit., favorable; hence, I.of favorable or fortunate omen, fortunate, favorable, auspicious, prosperous, lucky (rare but class.; cf.: “felix, fortunatus, beatus, prosperus, dexter, secundus):"

The names derive from the verb "faveo": "I favour", "I support", "I encourage", "I indulge". See: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=faveo&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059

Though 19th century etymologists noticed three meanings of faveo in Latin texts.: I.to be favorable, to be well disposed or inclined towards, to favor, promote, befriend, countenance, protect (class.; syn.: studeo, foveo, diligo, amo)."
 * "faveo făvĕo, fāvi, fautum, 2, v. n. perh. root φαϝ-, φάος, φῶς, light, safety; cf. also foveo,
 * "In relig. lang., linguis, rarely linguā, ore, etc., to speak good words or to abstain from evil words (the Greek εὐφημεῖν); hence, to keep still, be silent"
 * As a sign of approval: "To applaud". Dimadick (talk) 07:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

fist
In German, Faust means "fist". There is no discussion of what, if any, meaning or symbolism is implied. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

"Faustian" stories that aren't explicit retellings
You could run on for several pages with these. To give an obvious example... Little Shop of Horrors makes it clear "the plant" will grant Seymour whatever he wants, if Seymour gets him human blood. In the heavily edited theatrical version, Seymour and Audrey barely escape, but in the film's original version, both are eaten by the plant. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus
Has this not been thought of? Here is an article that touches on the film as having a faustian plotline:

https://collinwatchesmovies.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/the-imaginarium-of-doctor-parnassus/

The next review is "The Devil and Max Devlin," the previous one is "Bedazzled." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.131.255 (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus
Has this not been thought of? Here is an article that touches on the film as having a faustian plotline:

https://collinwatchesmovies.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/the-imaginarium-of-doctor-parnassus/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.131.255 (talk) 20:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Lucifer Let's make a deal Make Maria g miramonte. in love with me. Make sure she never ever 209.137.206.26 (talk) 07:35, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Faust


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Experimental analysis of behavior

The experimental analysis of behavior is a science that studies the behavior of individuals across a variety of species. A key early scientist was B. F. Skinner who discovered operant behavior, reinforcers, secondary reinforcers, contingencies of reinforcement, stimulus control, shaping, intermittent schedules, discrimination, and generalization. A central method was the examination of functional relations between environment and behavior, as opposed to hypothetico-deductive learning theory that had grown up in the comparative psychology of the 1920–1950 period. Skinner's approach was characterized by observation of measurable behavior which could be predicted and controlled. It owed its early success to the effectiveness of Skinner's procedures of operant conditioning, both in the laboratory and in behavior therapy.

Classical (or respondent) conditioning
In classical or respondent conditioning, a neutral stimulus (conditioned stimulus) is delivered just before a reflex-eliciting stimulus (unconditioned stimulus) such as food or pain. This typically done by pairing the two stimuli, as in Pavlov's experiments with dogs, where a bell was followed by food delivery. After repeated pairings, the conditioned stimulus comes to elicit the response.

Operant conditioning
Operant conditioning (also, "instrumental conditioning") is a learning process in which behavior is sensitive to, or controlled by its consequences. Specifically, behavior followed by some consequences becomes more frequent (positive reinforcement), behavior followed by other consequences becomes less frequent (punishment) and behavior not followed by yet other consequence becomes more frequent (negative reinforcement). For example, in a food-deprived subject, when lever-pressing is followed by food delivery lever-pressing increases in frequency (positive reinforcement). Likewise, when stepping off a treadmill is followed by delivery of electric shock, stepping off the treadmill becomes less frequent (punishment). And when stopping lever-pressing is followed by shock, lever-pressing is maintained or increased (negative reinforcement). Many variations and details of this process may be found in the main article.

Operant conditioning chamber
The most commonly used tool in animal behavioral research is the operant conditioning chamber—also known as a Skinner Box. The chamber is an enclosure designed to hold a test animal (often a rodent, pigeon, or primate). The interior of the chamber contains some type of device that serves the role of discriminative stimuli, at least one mechanism to measure the subject's behavior as a rate of response—such as a lever or key-peck switch—and a mechanism for the delivery of consequences—such as a food pellet dispenser or a token reinforcer such as an LED light.

Cumulative recorder
Of historical interest is the cumulative recorder, an instrument used to record the responses of subjects graphically. Traditionally, its graphing mechanism has consisted of a rotating drum of paper equipped with a marking needle. The needle would start at the bottom of the page and the drum would turn the roll of paper horizontally. Each subject response would result in the marking needle moving vertically along the paper one tick. This makes the rate of response the slope of the graph. For example, a regular rate of response would cause the needle to move vertically at a regular rate, resulting in a straight diagonal line rising towards the right. An accelerating or decelerating rate of response would lead to a quadratic (or similar) curve. For the most part, cumulative records are no longer graphed using rotating drums, but are recorded electronically instead.

Key concepts
Laboratory methods employed in the experimental analysis of behavior are based upon B.F. Skinner's philosophy of radical behaviorism, which is premised upon:
 * 1) Everything that organisms do is behavior (including thinking), and
 * 2) All behavior is lawful and open to experimental analysis.
 * 3) Central to operant conditioning is the use of a Three-Term Contingency (Discriminative Stimulus, Response, Reinforcing Stimulus) to describe functional relationships in the control of behavior.
 * Discriminative stimulus (S$D$) is a cue or stimulus context that sets the occasion for a response. For example, food on a plate sets the occasion for eating.
 * Behavior is a response (R), typically controlled by past consequences and also typically controlled by the presence of a discriminative stimulus. It operates on the environment, that is, it changes the environment in some way.
 * Consequences can consist of reinforcing stimuli (S$R$) or punishing stimuli (S$P$) which follow and modify an operant response. Reinforcing stimuli are often classified as positively (S$r+$) or negatively reinforcing (S$r−$). Reinforcement may be governed by a schedule of reinforcement, that is, a rule that specifies when or how often a response is reinforced. (See operant conditioning).
 * 1) Respondent conditioning is dependent on stimulus-response (SR) methodologies (unconditioned stimulus (US), conditioned stimulus (CS), neutral stimulus (NS), unconditioned response (UR), and conditioned response, or CR)
 * 2) Functional analysis (psychology)
 * 3) Data collection

Anti-theoretical analysis
The idea that Skinner's position is anti-theoretical is probably inspired by the arguments he put forth in his article Are Theories of Learning Necessary? However, that article did not argue against the use of theory as such, only against certain theories in certain contexts. Skinner argued that many theories did not explain behavior, but simply offered another layer of structure that itself had to be explained in turn. If an organism is said to have a drive, which causes its behavior, what then causes the drive? Skinner argued that many theories had the effect of halting research or generating useless research.

Skinner's work did have a basis in theory, though his theories were different from those that he criticized. Mecca Chiesa notes that Skinner's theories are inductively derived, while those that he attacked were deductively derived. The theories that Skinner opposed often relied on mediating mechanisms and structures—such as a mechanism for memory as a part of the mind—which were not measurable or observable. Skinner's theories form the basis for two of his books: Verbal Behavior, and Science and Human Behavior. These two texts represent considerable theoretical extensions of his basic laboratory work into the realms of political science, linguistics, sociology and others.

Notable figures

 * Charles Ferster – pioneered Errorless learning, which has since become a commonly used form of Discrete trial training (DTT) to teach autistic children, and co-authored the Schedules of Reinforcement book alongside B. F. Skinner.
 * Richard Herrnstein – developed the matching law, a mathematical model for decision making, co-authored the controversial The Bell Curve.
 * James Holland – co-wrote the highly cited and well-known Principles of Behavior with B.F. Skinner.
 * Fred S. Keller – creator of the Personalized System of Instruction (PSI).
 * Ogden Lindsley – founder of the Precision Teaching approach to teaching.
 * Jack Michael – noted verbal behavior and motivating operations theorist and researcher.
 * John Anthony (Tony) Nevin – development behavioral momentum
 * David Premack - discovered the Premack principle that more probable behaviors reinforce less probable behaviors, and studied language capacity of chimpanzees
 * Howard Rachlin – pioneer in self-control research and behavioral economics.
 * Murray Sidman – discovered Sidman Avoidance, highly cited author, researcher on punishment, also has been influential in research on stimulus equivalence.
 * Philip Hineline – contributed extensively to negative reinforcement (escape/avoidance), molecular/molar accounts of behavior processes, and the characteristics of interpretive language.
 * Allen Neuringer – well known for theoretical work including volition perception, randomness, self-experimentation, and other areas.
 * Peter B. Dews principal founder of behavioral pharmacology

title: Experimental analysis of behavior


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User talk:Illuminati

Hello, please could you read the discussion on Talk:Illuminati Order and respond there before reverting the article again. Thanks.

By the way, if you're going to keep blnking your talk page, you might want to put some sort of disclaimer at the top like Evercat has done to avoid people not realising you have done this and telling you the same things again and again. Angela 20:59, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ahhh! Got it. Had not read this. Will do. Also, keep in mind, the artcle is about the Illuminati Order, not specifically the Illuminati, which is a broad term.

Hi, regarding your questions on Talk:Illuminati Order, such as "shall I cease and let you do what you will with it?"; perhaps it would be best if you left that article alone for a while and focus your efforts on something else. Emotions are always going to be raised when working on something that you feel strongly attached to. The advice at Autobiography may be partly relevant. See the talk page too for some discussion of writing on subjects close to your heart. Angela 21:48, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Hi Angela. Is it that obvious? :) Thank you for that tip. I'll read what you suggested. Illuminati

Greetings, Illuminati. And welcome to Wikipedia. Please accept my apologies for the inhospitable way some of my fellow Wikipedians have received you. You really didn't do anything wrong, but I would urge you to limit your contributions to article Talk pages until such time as you have a better understanding of the Wikipedia community. I am drawn to controversy like a moth to a flame, but (as a general rule) I try to limit my contributions on controversial Wikipedia articles to Talk pages until I figure out who is involved in editing said articles and what their various agendas are. -- NetEsq 22:18, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Now 'this' I really appreciate. Thank you. That is, if you're an Angel of peace, and not my death! hahaha. I've learned some interesting lessons so far, and it seems that using the Talk pages is one of them. ;) Illuminati 22:28, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

By virtue of the fact that virtually every regular Wikipedia contributor gets involved in an occasional edit war, I think it's self-evident that we all need to learn those interesting lessons over and over again. Once again, welcome to the 'Pedia, and be sure to invite all your friends. I look forward to seeing drastically expanded content on the Freemasons. -- NetEsq 22:36, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Greets NetEsq,

Seems I have stumbled onto another very interesting place on the net. After making my presence known in some, I revert to what they call "lurking" - ever watchful. I suppose some might call me the Watcher. If some of my elder brethren knew of my internet activities, they would probably warn me more sternly than they do. However, our numbers diminish and our influence wanes because of their lack of understanding of this new technology. I am a technology baby. Information was once my food. Misunderstanding and lack of guidance was my hindrance. Time, opportunity, and obligations permitting, I will add more. Seems my brethren on the usenet have their niche. Perhaps Wikipedia needs to be someone’s too. PS - Should I to others here, or to their personal talk pages/mail? Illuminati 23:36, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * It's usually best to reply on other people's talk pages. People would only see your reply here if they had put this page on their watchlist, whereas if you reply on their talk page they get instant notification of it. If you want to discuss something privately, then e-mail is an option, although not everyone discloses their e-mail address. Most communication occurs on talk pages though rather than by e-mail though. Angela 00:01, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Im glad you are able to understand what I type even when I make typos. OK, so "talk" pages are public about a subject, and "E-Mail this user" is completely private? Illuminati 00:24, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes that should be the case, although you should always question whether or not you trust the person in question to keep it completely private. One would hope they would, but you shouldn't rely too heavily on it. Angela 00:33, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Talk:Illuminati
In regard to talk pages on articles, I advise you to keep the discussion solely about the subject of improvements to the article. There are plenty of fora out there were you can discuss your esoteric hobbies with your friends, Wikipedia is not one of them. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

hobby? Sure. ok. And do you answer to no one about your condescending tone? Please spare me the effort of having to find that out. Further, if you'd stop being so quick to control you might have at the very least discovered that I was making a point, whether you got it or not. and look what we find here at Saddhiyama ( talk ) under ==Re: Question about my history== "...Once more I urge you to refrain from taking disputes as personal insults and please leave out the snug remarks and namecalling... ... -- Saddhiyama " What was the phrase you used? Something about a Pot calling a Kettle... Illuminati  ( talk ) 23:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am glad to see that you have taken my hint and kept your most recent remarks in the realm of building an encyclopedia. I hope that you will continue to do so. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

which means you didn't realize you were glad from the start, and I need to get used to a certain knack you have? Oh, and "no". It was Blueboar's lead, not yours. But either way... Illuminati  ( talk ) 09:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Illuminati


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Respect

Respect, also called esteem, is a positive feeling or deferential action shown towards someone or something considered important or held in high esteem or regard. It conveys a sense of admiration for good or valuable qualities. It is also the process of honoring someone by exhibiting care, concern, or consideration for their needs or feelings.

In many cultures, people are considered to be worthy of respect until they prove otherwise. Some people may earn special respect through their exemplary actions or social roles. In so-called "honor cultures", respect is more often earned in this way than granted by default. Courtesies that show respect may include simple words and phrases like "thank you" in the West or "" in the Indian subcontinent, or simple physical signs like a slight bow, a smile, direct eye contact, or a handshake. Such acts may have very different interpretations depending on the cultural context.

Language
One definition of respect is a feeling of admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, and achievements.

An honorific is a word or expression (such as a title like "Doctor" or a pronoun form) that shows respect when used in addressing or referring to a person.

Typically honorifics are used for second and third persons; use for first person is less common. Some languages have anti-honorific first person forms (like "your most humble servant" or "this unworthy person") whose effect is to enhance the relative honor accorded a second or third person.

For example, it is disrespectful not to use polite language and honorifics when speaking in Japanese with someone having a higher social status. The Japanese honorific "" can be used when English is spoken.

In China, it is considered rude to call someone by their first name unless the person is known by the speaker for a long period of time. In work-related situations, people address each other by their titles. At home, people often refer to each other by nicknames or terms of kinship. In Chinese culture, individuals often address their friends as juniors and seniors even if they are just a few months younger or older. When the Chinese ask for someone's age, they often do so to know how to address the person.

Physical gestures

In Islamic cultures, there are many ways to show respect to people. For example, one may kiss the hands of parents, grandparents, or teachers. It is narrated in the sayings of Muhammad "Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity". It is also important for Muslims to treat the Quran with great care, as it's considered the word of God. Actions like placing it on the floor or handling it with unclean hands are forbidden and should be followed by a prayer of forgiveness.

In India, it is customary that, out of respect, when a person's foot accidentally touches a book or any written material (considered to be a manifestations of Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge) or another person's body, it will be followed by an apology in the form of a single hand gesture with the right hand, where the offending person first touches the object with the finger tips and then the forehead and/or chest. This also counts for money, which is considered to be a manifestation of the goddess of wealth, Lakshmi. Pranāma, or the touching of feet in Indian culture is a sign of respect. For instance, when a child greets their grandparents, they typically will touch their hands to their grandparents' feet. In Indian culture, it is believed that the feet are a source of love and power.

In many African/West Indian descent communities and some non-African/West Indian descent communities, respect can be signified by the touching of fists.

Many gestures or physical acts that are common in the West can be considered disrespectful in Japan. For instance, one should not point directly at someone. When greeting someone or thanking them, it may be insulting if the person of lower status does not bow lower than the person with higher status. The duration and level of the bow depends on many factors such as age and status. Some signs of physical respect apply to women only. If a woman does not wear cosmetics or a brassiere, it is possible that she will be considered unprofessional or others may think she does not care about her situation.

Respect as a virtue
Respect for others is a variety of virtue or character strength. The philosopher Immanuel Kant made the virtue of respect the core of his Categorical Imperative:
 * So act that you treat humanity… always at the same time as an end, never merely as a means.

Chinese culture
In Chinese culture, bowing is generally reserved as a sign of respect for elders and ancestors. When bowing, they place the fist of the right hand in the palm of their left at stomach level. The deeper the bow, the more respect they are showing.

Traditionally, there was not much hand-shaking in Chinese culture. However, this gesture is now widely practiced among people, especially when greeting Westerners or other foreigners. Many Westerners may find Chinese handshakes to be too long or too weak, but this is because Chinese people consider a weaker handshake to be a gesture of humility and respect.

Kowtowing, or kneeling and bowing so deeply that one's forehead is touching the floor, is practiced during worship at temples. Kowtowing is a powerful gesture reserved mainly for honoring the dead or offering deep respect at a temple.

Many codes of behavior revolve around young people showing respect to older people. Filial piety is a virtue of having respect for ancestors, family, and elders. As in many cultures, younger Chinese individuals are expected to defer to older people, let them speak first, sit down after them, and not contradict them. Sometimes when an older person enters a room, everyone stands. People are often introduced from oldest to youngest. Often, younger people will go out of their way to open doors for their elders and not cross their legs in front of them. The older you are the more respect you are expected to be treated with.

Indigenous American culture
In many indigenous American societies, respect is viewed as a moral value that teaches indigenous people about their culture. This moral value is treated as a process that influences participation in the community and also helps people develop and become integrated into their culture. For this reason, the value of respect is taught during childhood.

Respect as a form of behavior and participation is especially important as a basis of how children must conduct themselves in their community. Children engage in mature activities such as cooking for the family, cleaning and sweeping the house, caring for infant peers, and crop work. Indigenous children learn to view their participation in these activities as a representation of respect. Through this manner of showing respect by participation in activities, children not only learn about culture but also practice it as well.

title: Respect