text:
Talk:Año Nuevo State Park

Opening heading
The original information for this article comes from http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=523, a California state government site which is in the public domain. RickK 02:19, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Merge
I've merged Año Nuevo State Park into here, and it now probably needs some cleanup/copy editing. Kevin 10:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the merge was probably a mistake. The State Park and the State Reserve are two distinct entities within the state park system. - Stepheng3 (talk) 01:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. - GTBacchus(talk) 01:55, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Año Nuevo State Reserve → Año Nuevo State Park – Move to current name: "These 278 units reflect the October 2008 reclassification and addition of the adjacent Año Nuevo State Natural Reserve into the existing Año Nuevo State Park, reducing the number of classified units in the state park system by one." - -McGhiever (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Support especially now that you already did the work of adding the source to the article and clarifying this. Thanks. The only issue is that it might destroy the history in that one, albeit only from 2003 to 2005 or so. W Nowicki (talk) 18:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment: Such a page move should instead probably be classified as a "a troublesome case". Año Nuevo State Park was merged into Año Nuevo State Reserve in 2006. Therefore, in order retain the histories of both pages, we would have to essentially do a "reverse merge". Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - We do a history swap, and it's not remotely "troublesome". I do several each week. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:Año Nuevo State Park


text:
Towhee

A towhee is any one of a number of species of birds in the genus Pipilo or Melozone within the family Passerellidae (which also includes American sparrows, and juncos).

Towhees typically have longer tails than other Passerellidae. Most species tend to avoid humans, so they are not well known, though the eastern towhee P. erythrophthalmus is bolder. This species, and some others, may be seen in urban parks and gardens.

There has been considerable debate over the taxonomy of the towhees in recent years. Two species complexes have been identified, the rufous-sided complex (involving Pipilo erythrophthalmus, P. maculatus, P. socorroensis, P. ocai and P. chlorurus), and the brown towhee complex (involving Melozone crissalis, M. fusca, M. aberti and M. albicollis). The distinction of species within these is uncertain and opinions have differed over the years. Modern authorities distinguish all four species in the brown towhee complex, though M. fusca and M. crissalis were formerly treated as a single species. Hybrids are frequent between some of the species, particularly between the Mexican races of P. maculatus ("olive-backed towhee", P. m. macronyx) and P. ocai.

Genus Melozone:
 * Abert's towhee (Melozone aberti)
 * California towhee (Melozone crissalis),
 * Canyon towhee (Melozone fusca)
 * White-throated towhee (Melozone leucotis)

Genus Pipilo:
 * Green-tailed towhee (Pipilo chlorurus),
 * Collared towhee (Pipilo ocai),
 * Eastern towhee (Pipilo erythrophthalmus),
 * Spotted towhee (Pipilo maculatus),
 * Bermuda towhee (Pipilo naufragus) — extinct

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Towhee


text:
Other Voices (The Doors album)

Other Voices is the seventh studio album by the Doors, released by Elektra Records in October 1971. It was the first album released by the band following the death of lead singer Jim Morrison in July 1971 with keyboardist Ray Manzarek and guitarist Robby Krieger sharing lead vocals. Tracks for the album had begun before Morrison's death and the band hoped that Morrison would return from Paris to finish them.

Background and recording
Following the critical and commercial success of L.A. Woman and Jim Morrison's death in 1971, the surviving members of the Doors continued as a trio to record their seventh album. Reflecting on the album in 2021, Robby Krieger noted the band's difficulty to continue working after Morrison's death:

"It was a tough time, of course. When Jim was gone… we had kept going. The three of us were practicing all the time, writing new stuff. When Jim passed, we said, "Jeez, what're we going to do?" We could just give it up, or, you know, we have all these songs. Let's go in and record and see what happens. We probably shouldn’t have put it out that quick after Jim’s passing. We just felt like that was all we could do. We could've sat around and be depressed. Which we were. But, I don't know. The record company, Elektra, they were wanting us to continue. It wasn’t that hard of a decision."

Later releases
According to Jac Holzman, Other Voices sold approximately 300,000 copies on its original release. Record World said that the single "Tightrope Ride" is "a knockout rouser that amply demonstrates the band's ability to rock on successfully with other voices."

The album was not released on CD until October 23, 2006, by the Timeless Holland label, along with the final Doors album, Full Circle. For years, the Doors largely disregarded the last two studio albums that were recorded without Morrison, and had no plans of reissuing the albums on CD. At the time, the Doors stated that they were not in possession of the master tapes, but remastered material from both the albums has appeared on various compilations, most notably the 1997 Box Set and the 2000 compilation The Best of the Doors.

On September 27, 2011, The Doors finally gave Other Voices (along with Full Circle) its first official reissue, though made available only via digital download. The original master tapes were confirmed to have been used in these reissues. On May 29, 2015, it was announced that Other Voices and Full Circle would be re-released together on a 2-CD set and individually on 180-gram vinyl by Rhino Records on September 4 of that year. The CD set features "Treetrunk"—the B-side of the "Get Up and Dance" single—as its only bonus track.

Track listing
The LP's original Elektra Records 1971 release show the individual song credits and lengths as listed below (though each songs' lead vocalists are not credited):

Personnel
Per album liner notes:

The Doors
 * Ray Manzarek – vocals, keyboards, production
 * Robby Krieger – vocals, guitar, production
 * John Densmore – drums, production

Additional personnel
 * Jack Conrad – bass guitar on "In the Eye of the Sun", "Variety Is the Spice of Life" and "Tightrope Ride"
 * Jerry Scheff – bass on "Down On The Farm", "I'm Horny, I'm Stoned" and "Wandering Musician"
 * Wolfgang Melz – bass on "Hang on to Your Life"
 * Ray Neapolitan – bass on "Ships w/ Sails"
 * Willie Ruff – acoustic bass on "Ships w/ Sails"
 * Francisco Aguabella – percussion on "Ships w/ Sails" and "Hang on to Your Life"
 * Emil Richards – marimba on "Down on the Farm"

Production
 * Bruce Botnick – production, engineering
 * Ron Raffaelli – artwork

title: Other Voices (The Doors album)


text:
Pipilo

Pipilo is a genus of birds in the American sparrow family Passerellidae. It is one of two genera containing birds with the common name towhee.

Taxonomy
The genus Pipilo was introduced by the French ornithologist Louis Pierre Vieillot in 1816 with the eastern towhee as the type species. The name Pipilo is Neo-Latin for "bunting" from pipilare "to chirp". Within the New World sparrow family Passerellidae, the genus Pipilo is sister to the larger genus Atlapetes.

Species
The genus contains five species:

title: Pipilo


text:
Full Circle

Full Circle may refer to:

Geometry

 * Full circle (unit), a unit of plane angle

Books

 * Full Circle, a 1962 novel by Grace Lumpkin
 * Full Circle, a 1982 memoir by Janet Baker
 * Full Circle (novel), a 1984 novel by Danielle Steel
 * Full Circle: The Moral Force of Unified Science, a 1972 book co-written and edited by Edward Haskell
 * Full Circle (travel book), a 1997 companion book to the travel TV series, by Michael Palin
 * Batman: Full Circle, a comic book
 * Full Circle Magazine, a free-distribution on-line Ubuntu PDF magazine launched in 2007

Film, TV and theatre

 * Full Circle (1935 film), a British film starring Garry Marsh
 * Full Circle (1977 film) (also known as The Haunting of Julia), starring Mia Farrow
 * Full Circle (1993 film), a Canadian documentary
 * Full Circle (1996 film), a Cirque du Soleil documentary
 * Full Circle, a 1996 TV film adapted from the novel Full Circle by Danielle Steel
 * Full Circle (2008 film), a documentary about an Israeli submarine

 * Full Circle (2012 film), a Chinese film directed by Zhang Yang

Television

 * Full Circle (Doctor Who), a 1980 TV serial
 * "Full Circle" (Stargate SG-1), a 2002 TV episode
 * Full Circle (1960 TV series), a short-lived daytime TV serial starring Dyan Cannon and Jean Byron
 * Full Circle (2013 TV series), a TV series by Audience Network
 * "Full Circle", a Hercules: The Legendary Journeys episode
 * "Full Circle", a Princess Gwenevere and the Jewel Riders episode
 * "The Full Circle", an episode of the TV series Space: 1999
 * Full Circle with Michael Palin, a 1997 travel TV series
 * ESPN Full Circle, a televised sports event
 * Full Circle (miniseries), a 2023 American television miniseries

Plays

 * Full Circle (Melville play), a 1953 play by Alan Melville
 * Full Circle, a 1956 play by Erich Maria Remarque
 * Full Circle, a 1998 play by Charles L. Mee

Music

 * Full circle ringing, a method of hanging (church) bells and ringing them in the "English tradition"
 * Full Circle (group), a hip hop combined supergroup of Halal Gang and Prime Boys

Albums

 * Full Circle (Loretta Lynn album), 2016 album by Loretta Lynn
 * Full Circle (David Benoit album), 2006 album by David Benoit
 * Full Circle (Boyz II Men album), 2002 album by Boyz II Men
 * Full Circle (Chillinit album), 2020 album by Chillinit
 * Full Circle (Creed album), 2009 album by Creed
 * Full Circle (CTA album), 2007 album by CTA
 * Full Circle (Holger Czukay, Jah Wobble and Jaki Liebezeit album), 1982 album by Holger Czukay, Jah Wobble and Jaki Liebezeit
 * Full Circle (Barbara Dickson album), 2004 album by Barbara Dickson
 * Full Circle (The Doors album), 1972 album by The Doors
 * Full Circle (Dixie Dregs album), 1994 album by Dixie Dregs
 * Full Circle (Drowning Pool album), 2007 album by Drowning Pool
 * Full Circle (Eddie Palmieri album), 2018 album by Eddie Palmieri
 * Full Circle (FireHouse album), 2011 album by FireHouse
 * Full Circle (Hieroglyphics album), 2003 album and title track by Hieroglyphics
 * Full Circle (Icehouse album), 1994 album by Icehouse
 * Full Circle (Waylon Jennings album), 1988 album by Waylon Jennings
 * Full Circle (Jim Jidhed album), 2003 album by Jim Jidhed and Tommy Denander
 * Full Circle (Morgan Heritage album), 2005 album by Morgan Heritage
 * Full Circle (Oliver album), 2017 album by Oliver
 * Full Circle (Pennywise album), 1997 album by Pennywise
 * Full Circle (The Quill album), 2011 album by The Quill
 * Full Circle (Jimmie Ross album), 2010 album by Jimmie Ross
 * Full Circle (Saga album), 1999 album by Saga
 * Full Circle (Ravi Shankar album), 2001 album by Ravi Shankar
 * Full Circle (Leon Thomas album), 1973 album by Leon Thomas
 * Full Circle (Randy Travis album), 1996 album by Randy Travis
 * Full Circle (Walter Trout album), 2006
 * Full Circle (Dottie West album), 1982 album by Dottie West
 * Full Circle (Xzibit album), 2006 album by Xzibit
 * Full Circle, a 2005 album by Birtles Shorrock Goble
 * Full Circle, a 2004 album by Charlie Peacock
 * Full Circle, a 1997 soundtrack album by Colin Towns
 * Full Circle, a 2003 album by Dan Fogelberg
 * Full Circle, a 2003 album by Dave Sinclair
 * Full Circle, a 1998 album by DJ Dara
 * Full Circle, a 2018 album by Eddie Palmieri
 * Full Circle, a 1970 album by Forest
 * Full Circle, a 1986 album by Frank Marino
 * Full Circle, a 2016 album by Hælos
 * Full Circle, a 1968 album by Ian & Sylvia
 * Full Circle, a 2003 album by Holly Dunn
 * Full Circle, a 1981 album by Rupert Holmes

Songs

 * "Full Circle" (Five Finger Death Punch sonɡ), a 2020 song by Five Finger Death Punch
 * "Full Circle", a song by Aerosmith on the album Nine Lives
 * "Full Circle", a song by Company B on the album Company B
 * "Full Circle", a song by Miley Cyrus on the album Breakout
 * "Full Circle", a song by Half Moon Run on the album Dark Eyes
 * "Full Circle", a song by Loreena McKennitt on the album The Mask and Mirror
 * "Full Circle", a song by No Doubt on the album Everything in Time
 * "Full Circle", a movement from the song "Octavarium" by Dream Theater
 * "Full Circle Song" (aka "Full Circle"), a 1973 song by Gene Clark on the albums Roadmaster and Byrds
 * "Full Circle", a song by Xavier Rudd on the album Spirit Bird
 * "Full Circle", a song by Tenelle which represented American Samoa in the American Song Contest

Other

 * Full Circle, a studio established by EA based in Vancouver, British Columbia, best known for their work on the upcoming Skate video game sequel.

title: Full Circle


text:
Secure key issuing cryptography

Secure key issuing is variant of ID-based cryptography that reduces the level of trust that needs to be placed in a trusted third party by spreading the trust across multiple third parties. In addition to the normally transmitted information the user supplies what is known as "blinding" information which can be used to blind (hide) data so that only the user can later retrieve it. The third party provides a "blinded" partial private key, which is then passed on to several other third party in order, each adding another part of the key before blinding it and passing it on. Once the user gets the key they (and only they) can unblind it and retrieve their full private key, after which point the system becomes the same as identity based cryptography.

If all of the third parties cooperate they can recover the private key, so key escrow problems arise only if all of the third parties are untrustworthy. In other areas of information security this is known as a cascade, if every member of the cascade is independent and the cascade is large then the system may be considered trustworthy in actual practice.

The paper below states that "Compared with certificate-based cryptography, ID-based cryptography is advantageous in key management, since key distribution and key revocation are not required." However this poses a problem in long-lived environments where an identity (such as an email address) may shift in ownership over time and old keys need to be revoked and new keys associated with that identity provided to a new party.

title: Secure key issuing cryptography


text:
Certificate-based encryption

Certificate-based encryption is a system in which a certificate authority uses ID-based cryptography to produce a certificate. This system gives the users both implicit and explicit certification, the certificate can be used as a conventional certificate (for signatures, etc.), but also implicitly for the purpose of encryption.

Example
A user Alice can doubly encrypt a message using another user's (Bob) public key and his (Bob's) identity.

This means that the user (Bob) cannot decrypt it without a currently valid certificate and also that the certificate authority cannot decrypt the message as they don't have the user's private key (i.e., there is no implicit escrow as with ID-based cryptography, as the double encryption means they cannot decrypt it solely with the information they have).Certificate is the trust between two parties.

Key revocation
Key revocation can be added to the system by requiring a new certificate to be issued as frequently as the level of security requires. Because the certificate is "public information", it does not need to be transmitted over a secret channel. The downside of this is the requirement for regular communication between users and the certificate authority, which means the certificate authority is more vulnerable to electronic attacks (such as denial-of-service attacks) and also that such attacks could effectively stop the system from working. This risk can be partially but not completely reduced by having a hierarchy of multiple certificate authorities.

Practical applications
The best example of practical use of certificate-based encryption is Content Scrambling System (CSS), which is used to encode DVD movies in such a way as to make them playable only in a part of the world where they are sold. However, the fact that the region decryption key is stored on the hardware level in the DVD players substantially weakens this form of protection.

title: Certificate-based encryption


text:
Antelope Valley California Poppy Reserve

Antelope Valley California Poppy Reserve is a state-protected reserve of California, United States, harboring the most consistent blooms of California poppies, the state flower. The reserve is located in the rural west side of Antelope Valley in northern Los Angeles County, 15 mi west of Lancaster. To the north is Kern County. The reserve is at an elevation ranging from 2600 to 3000 ft above sea level, in the Mojave Desert climate zone. The reserve is administered by the California Department of Parks and Recreation. Other wildflowers within the reserve include the Owl's Clover, Lupine, Goldfields, Cream Cups and Coreopsis.

The Reserve
The intense blooming season for the California Poppy usually falls within late winter to early spring, during the months of mid-February through mid-May. Blooming seasons are dependent on the amount of rainfall during the winter to early spring seasons. Within the reserve, there are 7 mi of trails, including a paved section for wheelchair access, which traverse the poppy fields.

In order to keep the fields in a strictly natural state, California State Parks does not water or stimulate the flowers. The park service also excludes sheep and cattle from grazing the hillsides. Until the early 1970s, sheep once grazed the buttes in the western Antelope Valley. Pronghorn grazed long before then, until the railroad arrived in 1876. With the exception of service dogs, pets are prohibited from the reserve. Under California state law, visitors are also prohibited from taking flowers from the reserve.

Since 1994, controlled fires have been used to regulate dead brush, exotic species and litter within the reserve.

The reserve is located 7 mi east of Arthur B. Ripley Desert Woodland State Park.


text:
Certificateless cryptography

Certificateless cryptography is a variant of ID-based cryptography intended to prevent the key escrow problem. Ordinarily, keys are generated by a certificate authority or a key generation center (KGC) who is given complete power and is implicitly trusted. To prevent a complete breakdown of the system in the case of a compromised KGC, the key generation process is split between the KGC and the user. The KGC first generates a key pair, where the private key is now the partial private key of the system. The remainder of the key is a random value generated by the user, and is never revealed to anyone, not even the KGC. All cryptographic operations by the user are performed by using a complete private key which involves both the KGC's partial key, and the user's random secret value.

One disadvantage of this is that the identity information no longer forms the entire public key. Meaning, the user's public key is not discoverable from only the user's identity string and the KGC's public key. Thus, the user's public key must be published or otherwise obtained by other users. One advantage of the system, is that it is possible to verify that any such obtained public key belongs to the stated identity string. (In other words, the method of distributing the user's public key does not have to be secure.) The identity string and the KGC's public key can be used to verify that the obtained public key belongs to the identity string. (It can be verified that the obtained public key was generated from the identity string, the KGC's private key and some unknown value). Note that multiple public / private key pairs can be generated for any identity string, but attackers would not have access to the KGC's private key in the creation process.

To encrypt a message to another user, three pieces of information are needed: 1) the recipient's public key and 2) identity string, and also 3) the KGC's public information (public key). The identity string and the KGC's public key are used to verify that the recipient's public key belongs to the recipient (was generated from the identity string and the KGC's public key). To decrypt, a user just needs to use their private key.

For tight security, a certificateless system has to prove its security against two types of adversaries. Type 1 Adversary- Refers to any third party who can fake the user's public keys, corresponding to obtaining the user's random secret value. Type 2 Adversary- Refers to a compromised or malicious KGC, who has access to the partial public and private keys of all users.

title: Certificateless cryptography


text:
An American Prayer

An American Prayer is the ninth and final studio album by the American rock band the Doors. Following the death of Jim Morrison and the band's breakup, the surviving members of the Doors reconvened to set several of Morrison's spoken word recordings to music. It was the only album by the Doors to be nominated for a Grammy Award in the "Spoken Word" category.

Keyboardist Ray Manzarek perceived An American Prayer as being divided into five parts, with the first covering Morrison's childhood and the second his high school years; the third concerning "the young poet, stoned on a rooftop with acid dreams." The fourth his musical career and finally the fifth is a "final summation in a way, of the man's entire life and his philosophy."

Background
The Doors formed in 1965 and released six studio albums before singer/lyricist Jim Morrison's death in July 1971. The surviving band members (keyboardist Ray Manzarek, guitarist Robby Krieger, and drummer John Densmore) recorded two additional albums as a trio, but broke up in 1973.

Morrison had originally recorded some of his poetry between 1969 and 1970; the first sessions took place in either Elektra's recording studios or Sunset Sound Studios in Hollywood, California, while the last recordings were made in Village Recorders, West Los Angeles. These drafts were completed in two stints, first in the spring of 1969, and the other in December 1970. The first session included poems like "Bird of Prey", "Under Waterfall" and "Orange County", sung a cappella by Morrison with the latter cut featuring piano played by him. By January 1971, after the completion of these recordings, Morrison had developed some concepts for the album cover art, and was in correspondence with artist T. E. Breitenbach to design this cover in the form of a triptych. Prior to leaving for Paris in March 1971, Morrison had also approached composer Lalo Schifrin as a possible collaborator on the music to accompany the poetry, instead of the other members of the Doors.

In 1978, Ray Manzarek, Robby Krieger and John Densmore reunited to record the music for An American Prayer. On November 19, 1978, in the Los Angeles Times, Ray Manzarek explained, "We did this album to show the side of Jim which has been underrated all these years." Morrison's friend Frank Lisciandro served as one of the co-producers of the album, while Pamela Courson's father "Corky" Courson was also involved in the record. According to the book Break on Through, when recording the music, the three Doors members decided to produce a different musical style from Morrison's original vision of orchestral music on the project. Other pieces of music and spoken word recorded by the Doors and Morrison were also used in the audio collage, such as dialogue from Morrison's film HWY: An American Pastoral, snippets from jam sessions, excerpts from interviews, and featuring sections from "The WASP (Texas Radio and the Big Beat)" and "Riders on the Storm". Densmore devised an early use of synthesized drums for the former.

Artwork
After Morrison had done his recordings, he asked American artist T. E. Breitenbach to design the cover for the album. He sent him a letter about his suggestions for the concept: ""Try doing a triptych. The left panel depicting a radiant moon-lit beach and an endless stream of young naked couples running silently along the water's edge. On the beach, a tiny infant grins at the universe and around its crib stand several ancient, old people... The center, a modern city or metropolis of the future at noon, insane with activity... The last panel, a view through a car windshield at night on a long straight desert highway.""

After Morrison's death however, the album's producers were unaware of his intention to use the painting, and used for the front and back cover photos taken by Edmund Teske and Joel Brodsky respectively. The existence of this lost painting collaboration came to light actually decades later, when the artist himself posted it on his website.

Release and reception
An American Prayer was released on November 17, 1978, as "a Jim Morrison Album" with "Music by the Doors". It initially sold approximately 250,000 copies, making it the best-selling spoken word album at the time. According to John Haeny, it later exceeded the one million copies sold. The album included a composite live version of "Roadhouse Blues", which received some radio airplay on rock radio stations. The album peaked at number 54 on the US charts. It was also nominated for the 1980 Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album.

Despite receiving a RIAA platinum certification in the US, An American Prayer received mixed reviews and still divides critics. When the album was originally released, longtime Doors' producer Paul A. Rothchild castigated it as a "RAPE of Jim Morrison." Rothchild claimed that he had heard all of the reels of master tapes from both the 1969 and the 1970 poetry sessions, and insisted that the three remaining Doors failed to realize Morrison's original intent for an audio presentation of the poetry. In a review published in Creem magazine in January 1979, musician Patti Smith felt that the record had some "certain flaws", but commended the fact that it "documents a fragment of the passion of Jim Morrison", adding that, "An American Prayer has been pieced together delicately with obsessive devotion." John Haeny (who recorded the original session tapes with Morrison in 1970) has written in an essay on July 23, 2013, "I want people to understand that this album was made by those people who were closest to Jim, both personally and artistically. Everyone had the best intentions" and that, "I believe Jim would be pleased. Jim would have understood our motivation and appreciated our dedication and heartfelt handling of his work."

In his 1981 review, Robert Christgau rated An American Prayer "C" (which is about average on his scale). He praised the music accompaniment by the surviving members, but criticized Morrison as "a bad poet". Rolling Stone described the record as "intriguing" but "suitable mainly for Morrison fanatics." On the occasion of the 1995 reissue release, Entertainment Weekly journalist David Browne similarly wrote that An American Prayer is "primarily for those who place great weight on Jim Morrison." More recently, Vik Iyengar of AllMusic found the album "interesting", but concluded that it's "not for everyone, but is a must-own for Doors completists and fans of Jim Morrison's poetry." Fellow AllMusic critic Matthew Greenwald in contrast, lauded it as an "excellent and underrated" album. In 2021, Far Out Magazine described it as "astonishing", and that, An American Prayer shows "a side of Morrison that was rarely seen in public, and which is still hugely underrated: his power as a poet."

Track listing
Poetry, lyrics and stories are written and recited by Jim Morrison; the music is composed by Ray Manzarek, Robby Krieger and John Densmore. Details are taken from the original 1978 US Elektra Records release.

Bonus tracks
Source:

Notes
 * Morrison's vocals in "Bird of Prey" were later sampled for the 2000 Fatboy Slim song "Sunset (Bird of Prey)".
 * Morrison's shout, "Wake up!" in "Awake" was sampled in the 1991 Orbital song "Choice".
 * Morrison's vocals from "Angels and Sailors" appeared on Bad Company's track "Ladies of Spain".

Personnel
Per the 2018 reissue liner notes:

The Doors
 * Jim Morrison – vocals and spoken words, drawings (printed on the gatefold sleeve)
 * Ray Manzarek – keyboards, production, direction
 * Robby Krieger – guitar, production, direction
 * John Densmore – drums, production, direction

Additional personnel
 * Arthur Barrow – synthesizer programming on "The Movie"
 * Reinol Andino – percussion
 * Bob Glaub – bass guitar (including on "Ghost Song")
 * Jerry Scheff – bass guitar on "Adagio"

Production
 * John Haeny – production
 * Frank Lisciandro – production, assistant engineering, inside photography, direction
 * Babe Hill, Paul Black, Fritz Richmond, John Weaver, Cheech D'Amico, Ron Garrett, Rik Pekkonen, James Ledner – assistant engineering
 * Bernie Grundman – mastering
 * Bruce Botnick – remastering, engineering
 * Paul A. Rothchild – 1995 remastering
 * John Van Hamersveld, Ron Coro, Johnny Lee – art direction
 * Paul Ferrara – engineering, inside front cover photography
 * Edmund Teske – front cover photography
 * Joel Brodsky – back cover photography
 * Art Kane – inside back cover photography

title: An American Prayer


text:
Talk:Antelope Valley California Poppy Reserve

Original text from http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=627, a California state government site, in public domain. RickK 02:39, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hours of operation
What time does it open on Sunday? 2603:8001:7000:5381:F802:4D7C:D640:3BA (talk) 02:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


text:
User talk:TheLight

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Here are some useful links in case you haven't already found them; *How to edit a page *How to write a great article *Naming conventions *Manual of Style If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Alexandros 02:42, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Jerky (food)
I posted a reply to your question on Talk:Jerky (food), and I'm posting here as well in case you don't have the page on your watchlist. scot 18:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia New York Meet-Up
Howdy! Please come to the First Annual New York Wikipedian Central Park Picnic. R.S.V.P. @ Meetup/NYC --David Shankbone 18:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:TheLight


text:
Antelope Valley Indian Museum State Historic Park

The Antelope Valley Indian Museum State Historic Park is a state historic park of California, United States, interpreting Native American cultures of the Great Basin and surrounding regions. The park and its grounds are situated on the Antelope Valley's rural east side in northern Los Angeles County, California.

The museum contains the combined collections of H. Arden Edwards and subsequent owner and anthropology student Grace Oliver. The exhibits represent and interpret Native Americans groups, both aboriginal and contemporary, of the Southwest, Great Basin, and Californian cultural regions. A number of the artifacts on display are rare or one-of-a-kind items.

The museum was originally constructed by homesteader/artist H. Arden Edwards in 1928. The chalet-style structure was built over the rock formation of Piute Butte in the Mojave Desert. The unusual folk art structure, originally used as a home, is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Demonstrations and special events
Joshua Cottage features a "touch table" room where visitors can experience food grinding and processing techniques, or learn how earlier Native Americans started fires using sticks or bow drills.

Outside the museum is a self-guided nature trail, a picnic area, and an outdoor ceremonial arena. Occasionally guest Native American groups perform traditional dances and other programs. An annual opening event each fall features a traditional ground blessing ceremony. There are also Native American artists demonstrating and selling their work, Native American food, and special activities for children. The museum also sponsors periodic educational seminars.


text:
Talk:Antelope Valley Indian Museum State Historic Park

Public domain text
The original text for this article is from http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=632, a California state site in the public domain. RickK 02:48, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)


text:
Talk:New wave of British heavy metal

Melodic death metal
@Lewismaster what's wrong with including this as a derivative? The About.com info page I cited clearly states it has characteristics of NWOBHM.-- MA SHAUN IX 20:56, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I answered on your talk page. Lewismaster (talk) 21:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on New wave of British heavy metal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150405054903/http://heavymetal.about.com/od/interviews/a/Grave-Digger-Interview.htm to http://heavymetal.about.com/od/interviews/a/Grave-Digger-Interview.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160513101332/http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/west+midlands/birmingham/judas+priest to http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/west+midlands/birmingham/judas+priest
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150417012929/http://rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/south+yorkshire/barnsley/saxon to http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/south+yorkshire/barnsley/saxon
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160407023216/http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/london/ufo to http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/united+kingdom/london/ufo

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Although encompassing diverse mainstream and underground styles
Related to the change of "Although encompassing various mainstream and underground styles" in which it was replaced by "Although it can be considered more underground than mainstream". The change was made with the intention of highlighting NWOBHM in favor of the underground scene, the reasons for this I also discussed in the changes made by me and related to several references in the article NWOBHM which comes out more underground than mainstream. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.97.176.160 (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I already answered in your talk page, but I want to stress that the sentence is about the music played by the young metal bands in that period. Much of the music was very mainstream, radio-friendly and inspired by well-known hard rock bands from the 70s. A few new musical elements were introduced by the new bands, which became quite popular and mainstream in a couple of years, as the British charts clearly show. I would add that what you wrote doesn't work with the rest of the sentence for me and doesn't give the reader the important information that the music of that period had many styles in it, even if it was simply called heavy metal. Lewismaster (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So we can have the discussion here as well.
 * Indeed, NWOBHM is not a musical genre and a movement, and for that I apologize for my mistake, related to the question that brought us here and your questions: It's a little hard to define what the underground was like in the 70's and 80's respectively, because I didn't live in those events at that time. Regarding the radio broadcasting phase, then the radios are not as you perceive them. Not everyone has / owns a mainstream automatic radio, the radio was a key source for other subcultures (ex punk), at that time there were radios that promoted underground music (It's like saying you're not underground if you listen to music from internet apps). Doesn't my sentence make sense? You can define what it doesn't make sense to say specifically about DIY and independent record label, and again I specified that the sources in the article indicate this. And the final note, of course, I do not intend to throw in the trash that worked some people before me, to make a rather minor accuracy once the journalist Geoff Barton himself who called the movement says that once some troops have entered the mainstream the movement ended. 213.233.88.108 (talk) 12:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Your addition does not make sense in the contest of that sentence, which wants to convey some info about the music played and the styles involved. What you wrote is not about styles but apparently about the movemnt itself, because it would be sincerely difficult to make a ranking of "undergroundness"and "mainstreamingness" in NWOBHM music. I lived in those times and in those 80s' compilations you could find poppy catchy tunes as well as barely-listenable and awfully-recorded noisy tracks. Mainstream and underground went hand in hand under the banner heavy metal. I remember an interview with Kelly Johnson of Girlschool where she remarked how ridiculous it was that Rush, ZZ Top, Motörhead and Venom were labelled in the same music genre. But that was what the press and record labels were doing in the early 80s. Lewismaster (talk) 12:56, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You asked some more questions, I answered them and your questions on the personal "talk" page were about the movement itself. What doesn't make sense about why, I just make sense of it because as an ordinary reader I can understand "various mainstream and underground styles" means that it was inspired by undergraund / mainstream music genres even though they are in a form or other "scenes" not styles. You lived in that period of congratulating you sincerely, when the movement ended I didn't exist in the world but that's not what we're talking about here we are talking about an encyclopedia and if the sources indicate something like this it should be written and for me it turns out to be more underground.
 * And the bands that I will list that have reached a huge popularity in the mainstream like Iron MaidenIron Maiden, became mainstream at the end of the movement and yet the NWOBHM troops were not reserved only for a few known bands and it was practically a finger compared to a whole hand . 213.233.88.108 (talk) 17:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I see that you insist in editing the intro, without understanding what the sentence that you continuosly change means and what I am saying. The intro of an article sums up what is inside the article for the casual reader and a large part of the article is about music styles. The fact that the NWOBHM is more underground than mainstream can be partially true, but it is not the focus of the article and is a lot less important than giving the readers a glimpse of the variety of musical tastes present in the music of that period. That it started as an underground movement is already clerly stated and there is no need to insist on the concept. Please, don't continue this edit war. Lewismaster (talk) 18:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That phrase is a bit out of place in the sense that it jumps a bit from one idea to another and I don't think it's necessary to mention that it was both underground and mainstream, although I understand that it's a phrase added in 2016, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed, I express my opinion because I saw that they have several individuals who tried to remove it. I see that the way the underground and mainstream scene is approached is already maintained in the following lines, I don't think it's necessary to mention it here. Raphael the great (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The part that you want to erease is about the MUSIC and is used to describe it. The rest of the intro is about underground movements. The two parts are not summarizing the same thing even if similar words are used. Is it so difficult to understand that they are different things? Lewismaster (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The way you explained it here no, it needs to be clearer define for a non-connoisseur what it means "Although encompassing diverse mainstream and underground styles", I personally understand that he means that he was in both scenes, it's just that it's a phrase that it's a bit misleading because when you say "Although encompassing diverse..." it doesn't make as much sense because it's not as clear as you'd think, underground or mainstream are just music scenes not styles to define music, plus it's not relevant to say it was in both scenes, i understand it's a phrase added by you yourself back in 2016 that doesn't mean it can't be replaced or removed. Raphael the great (talk) 01:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that that sentence summarizes an important section of the article and what it says can be rephrased but should not be ereased. Did you read the article and in particular the section "Musical and lyrical elements"? The first sentence is "The NWOBHM – comprising bands with very different influences and styles" and most of the section describes how in the NWOBHM were present both musical styles coming from underground (pub rock, punk rock) and mainstream (hard rock, prog rock) music. I remind you that an intro should not be detailed, but give hints of what is in the article. Maybe you can try to change the sentence, maintaining its meaning. By the way, I did not write this draft of the intro, but I find it pertinent to what is in the article. Lewismaster (talk) 17:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, you're really right, it's kind of silly to remove everything and yes, it's really a much better option to be reformulated, but it's a bit strange to say underground and mainstream, for example an ordinary reader won't note that it refers to porg rock and hard rock for the mainstream and punk rock and pub rock for the underground, because they won't understand that this is actually what they are referring to, it should be simplified a bit, but also make a little sense because it's very weird the reference, you can say for example that "incorporated various styles of rock music" would be much better and clearer for everyone. Do you agree with this proposal? Raphael the great (talk) 03:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's OK. Try to rewrite the sentence with that snippet. Lewismaster (talk) 17:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for understanding, "Although encompassing diverse styles inherited from rock music" is the new phrase of the intro. Raphael the great (talk) 18:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The neutrality of glam metal
Two fundaments of Wikipedia are verifiability (Verifiability) and readibility (Wikipedia is human readable). Fellow editor User:StjepanHR claims that the words "image-driven, sex-celebrating" used in the article to summarize aspects of the glam metal genre in the 80s are biased and go against WP:IMPARTIAL. I contest his point of view in both merit and method. I hope that this discussion does not escalate further and that my explanation is sufficient to settle the dispute. User:StjepanHR, please, write below your thoughts about it. Lewismaster (talk) 09:49, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Mertit - glam metal in the 80s was exactly what those few words describe. The musicians' looks were gaudy, colorful, androgynous and often more important than their music; the lyrics of their songs were sexist, indulged in the description of sexual acts and their main topics were rock 'n' roll lifestyle and romance. This is all verifiable, there is plenty of literature about it and I don't think that it can be disputed. The use of those words give the reader of the article important information about the stark contrast between glam metal and the NWOBHM, whose bands had in general a uniform uncospicuous appearance and whose lyrics were about horror and youthful fantasy. I think that cutting off those words is detrimental to the article and impoverishes the information that it conveys.
 * Method - I saw in recent times that some editors have the tendency of being bold (Be bold) in cutting off more or less large parts of articles, without much concern about the work of those who preceded them. This article passed through months of scrutiny and editing by dozens of senior editors before being promoted to its Featured status and its neutral point of view was assessed many times. Of course, we all strive to make Wikipedia the best encyclopedia possible and any contribution is welcomed as long as it does not cancel important info, is verifiable and referenced. IMO, if User:StjepanHR was somehow offended by those words, the right course of action was to find different words or modify the syntax of the sentence, remaining concise, maintaining the meaning of the paragraph and maybe even adding some new references.

 * The problemS with the statement are quite obvious, IMHO. Please note that I am writing this not to offend You in any way. I am a HUGE fan of both glam metal and NWOBHM movement for about two decades, so I am not leaning to the side of each of them (I actually find them to be quite similar, aside from obvious NWOBHM outliers liek Venom or Witchfinder General). However:
 * most of rock (and early metal) lyrics can be classified in two categories: love- (or just sex-, depending on the song) celebrating songs and songs dealing with general lifestyle connected with that type of music - "sex, drugs and RNR". For example, Def Leppard, Saxon, Girlschool, Tokyo Blade, Praying Mantis, and even Judas Priest and Motorhead (I know, they are not NWOBHM, but are the most direct precusors to the movement), plus sex was found in the lyrics of so-called "occult" bands like Angel Witch. While some NWOBHM bands (such as Venom, Witchfinder General, Demon etc.) continued in the "darker" fashion of early Black Sabbath, the huge majority of NWOBHM bands had lyrics not very different from US glam metal or 70s hard rock/early metal in the vein of Scorpions. Thus, mentioning "sex-celebrating" in the context of glam metal would mean that it differs from NWOBHM in the lyric themes, which is (mostly) not true. Just like there are NWOBHM bands standing out from "sex, drugs and RNR" formula, we had glam metal bands with Christian lyrics (Stryper, Leciticus from Sweden, Holy Soldier and many more) and those touching upon much darker themes (just look at some of the earlier albums from Europe, they even had horror-themes "Seven Doors Hotel", or Motley Crue, two of the most famous bands)
 * "image-driven" implies that musicianship was not important to glam metal bands, while it was the genre that established shred guitar playing as we know it today: Eddie Van Halen was both amond the "founding fathers" of glam metal and shred-guitar, and glam metal guitarists included many of the important virtuoso players of the time: Nuno Bettencourt (Extreme), Steve Vai (David Lee Roth and Whitesnake), Yngwie Malmsteen (Steeler and early solo work), Michael Schenker (in various projects), etc, etc. I think it is simply wrong to label the genre that emphasised technical abilities so much as "image-driven". On the other hand, quite a few NWOBHM bands had very basic musicianship.
 * "image-driven" also implies that NWOBHM was not image-driven. While glam metal bands sported more extravagant appearance influenced by early-70s glam rock, NWOBHM bands almost exclusively sported "denim and leather" look. The image was so prevalent that it is actually the title of the Saxon's album, which is quite often included in various NWOBHM Top 10 albums lists. Actually, it is hard to find a single picture of a NWOBHM-era band in which the band-members DIDN'T have this visual appearance, plus the almost-obligatory long-hair (Paul Di'Anno aside).

 * Considering the references, I can back-up everything I wrote with valid citation, but it is also important not to use references that are obviously hateful towards glam metal. Jelaousy is, sadly, very prominent in the metal world and most of the popular genres get a lot of hate from the so-called "critics". For example, I can't stand most nu metal or metalcore bands, but I would never, ever, write derogatory words about them, but many "critics" can't seem to separate their personal opinions and objective qualities. StjepanHR (talk) 23:50, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

 * It is good to have this discussion to clear up opinions about editing and sources. Unfortunately, many reliable sources are the reviews of those "critics" that you despise. Writing musical articles for an encyclopedia sometimes implies the balance of different points of view, which does not necessarily mean that those opinions are true. However, I do not agree with your statements above, maybe originated because you did not read the article with due attention. In the section about "Musical and lyrical elements" there is a short paragraph where the themes of NWOBHM lyrics are listed and referenced. It is written that "songs about romance and lust were rare". On the contrary, in the glam metal article a sentence says "lyrical themes often deal with love and lust, with songs often directed at a particular woman", followed by a good reference. The words "rare" and "often" used in those sentences indicates the general direction in most songs by most bands and it is not the same for NWOBHM and glam metal. There are a few exceptions in both genres, but you cannot say that they are similar.

 * No one says that glam metal did not have virtuoso musicians, because some of the greatest came from that period and genre. What I meant is that the glam metal bands' look was a winning card in the MTV-dominated second half of the 80s. In the "Decline" section, it is written that "music videos exalted the visual appeal of a band, an area where some British metal groups were deficient". Many NWOBHM musicians did not conform to the Californian look (attractive, lean, athletic, full of combed hair and make-up); many of them had short hair or were even bald, some others were fat and clumsy. It was not important when playing in a club in your hometown, but it became a problem when your band could be broadcasted worldwide. Their denim and leather uniform was inconsequential to distinguish them. Can you contest that glam metal bands' image contributed greatly to their success? Would Ratt, Poison, Dokken, Winger, Mötley Crüe and the likes be so successful without their colorful, choreographed music videos shot by Hollywood pros? I don't think so. The denim and leather uniform worn by British headbangers was essentially the same adopted by most American thrash metal bands and it was not so important in getting them recognition and success in mainstream media. Until Metallica went commercial... Lewismaster (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't neccessarily disagree with YOu on most things. I wan't just to clear few things. Firstly, the (sourced) statement that "songs about romance and lust were rare" in NWOBHM is baffling to me. While they were not as prevalent as in glam metal, they were certainly quite numerous, even in the more famous bands, and especially in those bands that were widely considered to be NWOBHM at the time, but are now frowned upon by so-called "true" metalheads.
 * As for the visual appearance, I think the glam metal image was sort-of "right thing in a right time" and music (and TV) producers saw their chance in those bands. Mind You, glam metal was around for quite a few years before it really became mainstream music (and inspired many imitators in the late-80s), while NWOBHM icons Iron Maiden and Def Leppard had debut album that charted at 4th place and 15th place respectivelly, in the UK, and another icons, Saxon's second album (released slightly over half a year after the debut) charted at No.5. I might be wrong, but I think the first glam metal album to chart in the Top 10 in the US was Quiet Riot's third album in 1983, while the genre started a few years earlier, with Motley Crue's and Dokken's debut (I have even seen Def Leppard's High 'n' Dry, a NWOBHM album, listed as the first glam metal album on various sites). So, I think it was the other way around - young musicians (mostly) from the states decided to fuse musical style of NWOBHM and 70s hard rock/heavy metal like Scorpions, Kiss or Van Halen with the glam rock visual appearance and it turned out successfully for them. While their image did help, it was not the only reason for their success. Also, a lot of NWOBHM bands relied HEAVILY on their visual appearance, especially theatrics during the live shows.
 * While visual appearance of thrash metal bands was closer to NWOBHM bands' look (glam metal took image from another British (and American) genre - glam rock), bands like Quiet Riot, WASP, Motley Crue, Ratt, Stryper, Dokken, etc. were much closer to NWOBHM musically (again, excluding very rare exceptions like Venom). You and I are both fans of metal and/or rock music, so we would immediately spot the difference between Saxon and Dokken, but give any random man from the street a listen to, let's say, Iron Maiden's, Saxon's or Def Leppard's early album and then a listen to Slayer's and Motley Crue's debut and I don't have any doubt that he will say the Crue's debut sound more similar.
 * All in all, while we can say that glam metal image had greater impact on their later commercial success, it wasn't formed with the intention of being successful. Just like NWOBHM bands took their appearance from the 1960s, as the NWOBHM article states "The dress code of the British headbangers reflected the newly found cohesion of the movement and recalled the look of 1960s rockers and American bikers.", the glam metal band took their look from the early 1970s glam rock. Neither of them adopted the image bacause they thought it would immediately bring them success, but because they felt like that at the time. Of course, glam metal image was more successful with the TV era, but it is a thing that happenned after the visual appearance of the glam metal was already established.
 * To conclude everything, I would like the contested sentence to be rewritten from "By the mid-1980s, image-driven, sex-celebrating glam metal emanating from Hollywood's Sunset Strip, spearheaded by Van Halen and followed by bands such as Mötley Crüe, Quiet Riot, Dokken, Great White, Ratt and W.A.S.P., quickly replaced other styles of metal in the tastes of many British rock fans." to "By the mid-1980s, glam metal emanating from Hollywood's Sunset Strip, combining more flamboyant glam rock visual appearance and putting more emphasis on lyrical themes about lust and love and spearheaded by Van Halen and followed by bands such as Mötley Crüe, Quiet Riot, Dokken, Great White, Ratt and W.A.S.P., quickly replaced other styles of metal in the tastes of many British rock fans."
 * Ok, maybe make it a bit less clumsy, but English is not my first language :) StjepanHR (talk) 22:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just one remark not entirely important for the discussion. You seem to wrote: "Many NWOBHM musicians did not conform to the Californian look (attractive, lean, athletic, full of combed hair and make-up); many of them had short hair or were even bald, some others were fat and clumsy." While make-up and combed hair was indeed not typical of NWOBHM, there were some bands sporting that look even then (like the NWOBHM band Girl, which predated Motley Crue for a few years). Similarly, very, very few NWOBHM musicians were bald or short-haired (some of them still sported medium-length hair not unlike the 1960s rock musicians, but really short hair was pretty rare), as it can be seen by observing band images on NWOBHM.com. Also, both glam metal and NWOBHM musicians were of similar built (again, I am not counting exceptions like the singer of The Handsome Beasts) and I don't think (although, as a straight male, I am not the best judge) that most glam metal musicians were physically attractive. If we see the prototypical-glam metal band Van Halen, we have attractive David Lee Roth, extremely average looking (and almost short haired) Michael Anthony, Motley Crue had attractive Nikki Sixx and Tommy Lee and at best average Mick Mars, among the other famous singers (I am now excluding musicians), we had not-very-attractive or average Dee Snider (Twisted Sister), Kevin DuBrow (Quiet Riot) and strange looking Blackie Lawless (WASP), together with older singers like Alice Cooper and Klaus Meine (Scorpions), which were not exactly the stereotypical good-looking-men. Of course, there were also singers loved by women mainly for their looks, like Bon Jovi (my mother-in-law's favourite) and Europe's Joey Tempest (my aunt's favourite), but for every Bon Jovi or Tempest, you had Dee Snider or Kevin DuBrow. The "good-looking glam metal musician" stereotype seems more like something out of Count Raven's "In the Name of Rock 'n' Roll" than as an actual reality. StjepanHR (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I lived those years in the 80s as a teen-ager and I can assure you that every rock music TV show was filled with beautiful people singing, playing, dancing or just staring around. Those videos were shot to emphasize a stereotype of beauty and even ugly trolls looked cool in them. A few videos relied on shock rock theatrics (WASP and Twisted Sister come to mind). MTV ruled in those days and metal bands from Europe had to comply to the new standards of style and appearance. Do you remember Judas Priest in full-costume during the Turbo tour or Girlschool with heavy make-up an puffed hair in the "Running Wild" video?
 * Lewismaster (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The sentence is not wrong, but a little bit too long and convoluted. Maybe a third opinion is needed to help us in sorting out this conundrum. I asked it with the proper form. Lewismaster (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: I certainly don't think it's inaccurate to say that glam was image-driven and sex-celebrating (and I'm old enough to remember it; don't tell anyone.) But phrasing it like that is probably a little too on the nose. I think the alternate phrasing proposed above is too wordy, but it's going the right general direction. Maybe something like "Glam metal, which often emphasized a band's appearance and featured lyrics about love and sex,..."? Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:19, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your quick intervention and for your suggestion. I'll wait for my fellow editor to agree with the changes to be made. Lewismaster (talk) 21:30, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, thanks for the polite discussion to both :) EDIT: I only think that "love and lust" would be more comprehensive than "love and sex". Other than I think it is quite good. StjepanHR (talk) 22:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Having used "lust" already for the first description of lyrical content, maybe it's better to change word here. Lewismaster (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I see. I just thought that "lust" has a broader meaning than "sex", but I am fine with both. StjepanHR (talk) 21:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Glam metal among the "derivative forms"
Current infobox lists "Black metal, power metal, speed metal, thrash metal" among the derivative forms. As touched upon in the previous discussion about the glam metal, among the progenitors of glam metal were Def Leppard and Girl (and I would add Marseille's 1979 album as a significant influence on GM and Fastway's 1983 album as a contemporary to the first GM wave in the US). The article even states "The stardom of Def Leppard in the US provided a catalyst for the growth of glam metal". Furthermore, apart from "speed metal", which was actually played by a small number of NWOBHM bands, power, black and thrash metal were only influenced by some of the bands that were part of the NWOBHM, but actually don't sound that much alike, apart from some of the earlier power metal and some melodic thrash (I am NOT including post-1983 debuts by bands like Atomkraft or Blood Money, released when thrash metal was already established in the USA), while most of the early glam metal (early Crue, early-mid 1980s Quiet Riot, Dokken, etc.) actually sounded like NWOBHM bands with American accents. I definitely think that "glam metal" should be added to the infobox, but I am leaving this section for possible oposing views. StjepanHR (talk) 11:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 * What you are writing appears to be influenced by your personal tastes and musical background. Wikipedia is founded on reliable sources and a no original research policy. If you have reliable sources saying that glam metal derives from this movement, provide them. Right now, all other subgenres are referenced in the article as derivative ot the NWOBHM, but not glam metal. Lewismaster (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but now You are accusing me of the same thing You do. I get it that You hate glam metal and I love it, but please leave Your personal taste aside. I also love Venom (for example, my early 2000s band was mostly influenced by that band and I recorded and released a Venom-clone single in 2010), Witchfinder General, Pagan Altar, but also I love Girl, Def Leppard, etc., so there is no bias from my side. The article clearly states: "The overwhelming international success of Pyromania induced both American and British bands to follow Def Leppard's example, giving a decisive boost to the more commercial and melodic glam metal and heralding the end of the NWOBHM." and also: "The stardom of Def Leppard in the US provided a catalyst for the growth of glam metal, just as bands like Angel Witch, Witchfynde, Cloven Hoof and especially Venom generated the music, lyrics, cover art and attitude that sparked black metal in its various forms in Europe and America. Motörhead, Iron Maiden, Raven, Tank, Venom and several minor groups are viewed as precursors of speed metal and thrash metal, two subgenres which carried forward the crossover with punk, incorporating elements of hardcore while amplifying volume, velocity and aggressive tone." Pretty much this means that glam metal is as derivative of NWOBHM as much as the other styles lsited. EDIT: The sentence above is the ONLY mention of black metal in this article and YOu don't seem to have any problem with it, yet glam metal is mentioned twice and You seem to overlook it. Interesting... StjepanHR (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Additionally, here are few quotes from the Popoff's book on glam metal:
 * "The UK’s Girl unwittingly contributes to the invention of hair metal..."
 * "Def Leppard’s debut album, On Through the Night, considered the most Americanized, professional, and accomplished of all NWOBHM albums, a pointer toward the next metal trend."
 * "Def Leppard issue their second album, High ’n’ Dry. It’s now viewed, in retrospect, as a well-regarded proto–hair metal album—essentially good heavy party metal."
 * "Key NWOBHM band Tygers of Pan Tang go radically melodic and poppy on their third album, The Cage, placing themselves ahead of their time and confusing the home-country punters."
 * "January 20, 1983: Def Leppard’s breakthrough record, Pyromania, ushers in the advent of “pop metal.” "
 * StjepanHR (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Your tone of accusation is unaccepteable. I asked for references for your changes to this article and you accuse me of hatred towards a musical genre for which I wrote often and edited dozens of articles. Not very mature. I don't have the book by Popoff, but it is a reliable source and should be listed among the references to justify what was written. Lewismaster (talk) 08:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that the book is already among the sources. Lewismaster (talk) 08:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Likewise. Your revert was extremely rude and immature. I tried to be reasonable, but You accused me of bias, while I provided the very citation that references glam metal as the off-shot of NWOBHM on talk page on 11 August ("The stardom of Def Leppard in the US provided a catalyst for the growth of glam metal.") and edited the main article full five days later, in case comeone has any objections. If YOu really wanted to be polite, You could have put "citation needed" tag or something like that. Or at least, You could have notified me about the removal of "glam metal" among the derivative forms. You didn't do any of that, so don't expect other people to be polite with You. Furthermore, none of the other four genres listed - thrash, power, speed and black are referenced in the infobox, but in the main text, just like glam metal in the citation I provided on 11 August (and the other one I provided yesterday). I am open to mature and polite discussion, but if You keep removing the added content without notification and if you childishly accuse other people of editing based on their personal taste, while I provided the in-text citation several days before I edited the article, You really can't expect the most polite reply from them. StjepanHR (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Countless
User:Andreldritch insists in changing the intro of the article with the word "countless" and explains its use writing that the number of metal bands in the NWOBHM cannot be counted. I think that this statement is false. NWOBHM bands can be counted and researchers and collectors surely did so. Three sources that I found estimate the number reported, basing it on knowledge of the period and of the collector's market and I think that it is more correct and clear to indicate that value in the intro, insead of using a generic adjective which blanks the fact. Using the word "countless" would mean that no one has an idea of the number of bands, they could be 100 or 12.000, and it is not what the sources say. If there are other sources saying otherwise, they can be used to give more precise numbers. Right now that estimate is the best approximation to the real data and I think that it should be indicated in the intro. Lewismaster (talk) 17:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

 * You should provide sources for that number. I have not seen any actual count. If you really think it is 1000, and not 2000 or 3000 or even 884, please show accurate counts with citable sources. If you can only estimate, then by default you cannot count all of them. Uncountable, countless: either way, we need some more verification of the actual number. If you want to be less specific, then say where the estimates came from . Or say quite simply that "the number has been estimated at" and source it. Trying to get clarity here, that's all. "Perhaps a thousand" sounds very much like a guess. Andreldritch (talk) 21:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The number of bands can be traced only by their recording activity and the vinyl market. Malc Macmillan in his book "The N.W.O.B.H.M. Encyclopedia" (2012) lists 540 metal bands which recorded albums and singles or appeared on compilations in the period of the NWOBHM. He writes at page 25 that "only now we are beginning to come to terms with the sheer quantity of amateur-hour acts who contrived to make their mark on the vinyl world during the NWOBHM era." He also writes that "new discoveries continue to be unhearted, albeit at an ever-decreasing rate", because "certain pressings were extraordinary limited, with some bands selling their records through tiny shops or at the occasional local gig." This means that the number of 540 bands listed in his book was exceeded at the time of publication and that it was very difficult to recover every record of every local band. For example, the incomplete website nwobhm.com lists 114 acts more than the book and it would take the count to 654 (although I would not consider it a reliable source). I think that a realistic number would fall between 540 and 1000. In conclusion, I would not use the word countless, because at least 540 bands were counted and listed by a reliable source. To avoid missing that information in the intro, maybe you can simply write "more than five hundreds". By the way, I did not write that sentence and this draft of the intro, which was heavily edited at the time of the FA review. Lewismaster (talk) 09:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I am somewhere between the two of You on this issue. Please mind that English is not my native language, but to me it seems that "countless" would imply "too many to be counted", but the reality is that they can't be counted not due to sheer number of them, but because of the following reasons:
 * some of the bands split-up without any releases, thus making it very hard to find any trace of them
 * similarly, there are many issues of the bands with the same name and it's sometimes tough to diferentiate them
 * there are different opinions of which years constitute "New Waave" in NWOBHM (1979-1983 period is the most common, but I have seem anything from 1976 until 1985) and some people include bands formed in 1984 and releasing their debuts at the time and some exclude them
 * there are different opinions on what constitutes "Heavy Metal" in NWOBHM - personally, I follow "if it was considered heavy metal/heavy rock at the time, it is NWOBHM" idea (which is also followed by beforementioned NWOBHM.com and Metal Music Archives, Popoff and Mac Millan), but some people (most notably the so-called Metal Archvies) exclude some bands that were considered to be NWOBHM at the time, but don't fit the modern definition of metal (Chevy or Praying Mantis are considered to be hard rock/AOR by them and Shy glam metal). Plus, even if we all agree on the definition what constitutes HM in NWOBHM, there is still an issue of the bands without existing recordings.
 * there are even different opinions on what constitutes "British" in NWOBHM - some exclude Northern Irish bands, some include them. Technically, Nothern Ireland is not Britain, but New Wave of British Heavy Metal sounds more tolerable than New Wave of Heavy Metal from United Kingdom. Same with Jersey. Also, there is EF Band from Sweden that is often included in NWOBHM as they moved to the UK in late 1970s.
 * All this supports Lewismaster's opinion.
 * However, I don't agree with "By some estimates, the movement spawned as many as a thousand heavy metal bands". It implies that there are at most about a thousand NWOBHM bands, while that number was already exceded by a reseach done in, for example, "Nwobhm/ Hard Rock- RARE" Facebook group. I know, I know, Facebook group is NOT a reliable source, but the fact is that even if it isn't officially published number, there are already well over the 1000 number and the list isn't up-to-date (some of the bands featured on their page are not listed in the list). I think it would be the best to write something like "By some estimates, the movement spawned AROUND a thousand heavy metal bands" (and, of course, provide valid citation). If the number ever gets exceeded in a published source (for example, if the guys from the Facebook group ever publish their research), the article should be updated with the new number. StjepanHR (talk) 23:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

"Diamond Head, Venom and Raven, remained underground"
I am not sure these three bands are the best examples of underground NWOBHM bands (and there is no source listed to back it up, nor I could find any - the closest ones are something like "haven't reached their full commercial potential" or "were less successful than XY" and I actually found some sources mentioning their good commercial performace):
 * Diamond Head had significant commercial success: Borrowed Time (UK #24), Canterbury (UK #32); plus those two albums had several singles charting in the Top 100; This is a commercial performance comparable to Tesla or Stryper (although both of them had longer successful career) or Winger
 * Venom (along with Leppard, Maiden and Saxon) is considered to be one of the "Big 4" of NWOBHM and had some charting success: At War with Satan (UK #64 and Sweden #48) and Possessed (UK #99), which is better than bands like Pretty Boy Floyd and comparable to WASP; plus, they performed at Hammersmith Odeon in 1984, not a sign of an underground band
 * Raven: Rock Until You Drop (UK #63), Stay Hard (US #81) and The Pack Is Back (US #121), same as Venom

I am deliberately comparing them to the US heavy metal/hard rock bands of the same era, none of which is usually described as "underground", just to prove the point.

If there is any reliable source to back those three being "underground", I am fine with that, but as it is, is seems very untrue to me. StjepanHR (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Please, define your meaning for underground or commercial success. IMO, commercial success means that a band sold at least a few hundrerds thousand copies of each album and single. No album of the aformentioned bands even reached silver status in the UK (60.000 copies). The aformentioned bands were also virtual unknowns for the general public and their appreciation was limited to the restricted circles of headbangers and specialized magazines. Leppard, Iron Maiden and Saxon had commercial success and were somehow recognized by the general media, the others were not and remained underground.
 * "Venom (along with Leppard, Maiden and Saxon) is considered to be one of the "Big 4" of NWOBHM" - who says this? Lewismaster (talk) 16:12, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Considering this article, it isn't up to me (nor You) to define anything. There is no source to back the "underground" part up and that's a fact. I agree with what You wrote that only Leppard, Maiden and Saxon had huge success. However, IMHO, the artists are not divided into superstars and underground ones. Wikipedia uses the definition: "In modern popular music, the term "underground" refers to performers or bands ranging from artists that do DIY guerrilla concerts and self-recorded shows to those that are signed to small independent labels.". I think that defition is pretty much spot-on. Probably close to 99% percent of the two or three thousand NWOBHM bands fit that description. However:
 * Diamond head was signed to MCA Records at that time and their most successful albums had dozens of different issues.
 * Venom were signed to Neat Records that, while independent, was hardly a "small independent label". Plus, they headlined "Aardschokdag" in 1984, and played in front of thousands of people in the UK and all around Europe. Indicatively, they were featured as one of 10 bands on "Giants Of Steel" compilation by Roadrunner, alongside hard rock/heavy metal giants Judas Priest, Accept, Metallica, Dio, Black Sababth, Motorhead and Mercyful Fate.
 * Raven were also signed to Neat Records and later switched to Atlantic Records, which is neither small nor independent. Plus, they were also on the Roadrunner compilation mentioned before.
 * To conclude, all this indicates the three in question are not exactly "underground" bands by Wikipedia standards. Considering the fact (with which I mostly agree) that "their appreciation was limited to the restricted circles of headbangers and specialized magazine", well, of course that heavy metal and hard rock bands would be appreciated by headbangers, as that is the name for fans of that type of music haha. I am not exactly sure what is a "specialized magazine", but all of those bands had albums reviewd by major publications, such as Sounds, Kerrang! and Melody Maker.
 * The "big 4" part was a throwaway comment (and I doubt You could find a book citations about it), but NWOBHM.com guys agree with me: StjepanHR (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The citation that you use for underground music has no reference at all and qualifies as original research, so it has the same value as mine or Yours opinion. To find more ample and researched definitions of the term, see ,, . Access to mainstream media (radio, TV shows, MTV, ecc.) and commercial success are considered fundamental elements for a band to emerge from the underground into the mainstream. The three aformentioned bands were never commercially successful, had very little appeal for the general media and are known to a restricted number of heavy metal fans. If You compare them to the big ones of the same period, those three bands toured rarely outside the UK, often as support acts and in small venues, not stadiums. Only Vemom had a flash of true notoriety around 1983-84 essentially for their image and Satanic lyrics, just to disappear in anonimity soon after. Neat Records is a small independent label for sure, with only 50 albums published in 10 years, no licenced acts and a roster of NWOBHM wannabes, which left the label as soon as they could. Music for Nations and Roadrunner Records were the big European independent record labels of the 80s for metal. Lewismaster (talk) 13:51, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't want to sound rude, but if You consider the citation on the "underground music" original research, than claiming that Diamond Head, Raven and Venom are underground bands is also an original research. Out of the three references You have provided, none of them even mentions any of these bands. I will still take a look at them:
 * musicianwave.com is certainly not a scholarly source, but even if it is, it says "Underground musicians seek tremendous artistic liberty while also rejecting the mass media." I don't think a single NWOBHM band rejected mass media, like ever. It's just that most of them didn't make it to the mass media.
 * Stephen Graham actually agrees with the citation of Wikipedia: "The term “underground music” as it’s being used here connects various forms of music-making that exist outside or on the fringes of mainstream institutions and culture, such as noise, free improvisation, and extreme metal." As an example of an underground metal band, he provides Lord Foul, demo-only band, and none of the other artist mentioned ever came close to the success of Venom or Raven, much less Diamond Head.
 * soundoflife.com is also not a scholarly source and pretty much repeats the same as musicianwave.com, plus it says exactly the same as the Wiki citation You claim is original research: "Similarly, the music is usually created by unsigned artistes or those signed to smaller independent labels.". So, now we have a citation for that original research haha
 * That's about the sources, not the other stuff:
 * You mention Neat Records, which wasn't really a SMALL independent label. No label being described (, page 4) as "seeing chart action" But, even if it was, Diamond Head and Raven were singed to major labels, not even big independent labels, which should automatically eliminate them from any discussion on underground music.
 * "those three bands toured rarely outside the UK, often as support acts and in small venues, not stadiums". Uf, I have a really hard time even understanding this. What do You define as stadium? Wembley? Old Trafford? San Siro? Well, I doubt even Saxon played those. Very, very few mainstream artists ever play in stadiums as the main act, only the absolute top of the tops, like Maiden, Bon Jovi, Metallica, etc. I doubt You could find a citation backing the claim that a band needs to fill a stadium to be considered mainstream and not underground. Plus, I don't see why is the popularity outside of the country needed not to be mainstream? Have You ever heard of the following names: Mitar Mirić, Mišo Kovač, Kemal Malovčić, Braća Bajić? They were superstars in Yugoslavia, yet nobody knows them outside of the country, except expats from Yugoslavia.
 * Their concert background:
 * Diamond Head : true, they often played as a support act, but mostly to absolute top of the game bands, like AC/DC and Black Sabbath. Alone, they played in The Granary (Bristol, a legendary club), Birmingham Odeon (capacity about 2000) two times (plus three more times as a support act), Octagon Centre (capacity 1500), Marquee Club (officialy 700, but around 1000 in reality) three nights in a row, Regent Theatre, Ipswich (1500, in a town with slightly over 100 000 inhabitants), O2 Apollo Manchester (3500, supported by lesser-known Tank), Pier in Colwyn Bay (around 700-800 in a town of 35000). There are likely more, but this is just to give You an idea. No underground bands regularly plays alone in front of 1000+ people.
 * Info on Raven is harder to find (not the concerts, but if they played as a headliner or as a support; and info in their UK concerts are scarce), but they played Paradiso Grote Zaal (grote zaal is main hall, 1500) in Netherlands, Mayfair Ballroom (1500) and Marquee Club, and also frequetnly outside of the UK, sometimes as a support, sometimes as a co-headliner with a band of similar popularity
 * Venom played throughout Europe as a headliner (supported by then lesser-know Metallica) in places like Volkshaus in Zurich (1600), Palatenda (5300!), Espace Balard (unknown capacity, but Def Leppard played their Paris concerts there at the height of their popularity)¸; in the UK: Hammersmith Odeon (3500 at the time) two times in 6-7 months, Mayfair Ballroom (1500), etc. Info on their UK concert is scarce, but this should give an idea.
 * Additionally, I really don't understand logic behind "they were not superstars, so they were underground". To me, this seems like a huge logical fallacy similar to Red herring, as there is also a huge area of semi-successful artists that fall somewhere between top mainstream and underground. Word "alternative" is usually used. Not a scholarly source, but this definition is really down-to-point and usable:
 * And to conclude, I still don't see a reference backing the "underground" status of these three bands :)
 * StjepanHR (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In your last reference it is stated that "underground refers to something that is hidden, secret, or not widely known. It is often associated with activities or movements that are not part of the mainstream or popular culture... Underground music, for instance, refers to genres that are not widely known or played on mainstream radio stations." Wouldn't you agree that this can be applied to the three bands mentioned above? And that Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Saxon and Motorhead had more media exposure, financial success and were more widely known? It seems to me that you want to forcibly associate Diamond Head, Raven and Venom with the status of those other bands, clinging to a semantic quibble. They had their short moment of notoriety and quickly fell into oblivion. Lewismaster (talk) 17:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And it is written nowhere that Diamond Head, Raven and Venom are underground bands. "Remained underground" means that they never reached the mainstream consciousness like the band mentioned in the sentence before did. Lewismaster (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, You are "assuming" too much and again being offensive. Just like when You reverted my addition of "glam metal" in "derivative forms" without even bothering to notify me, despite me providing a citation on the talk page a week earlier, and then accused me of "being influenced by my personal tastes and musical background". Ad hominem attacks don't work here.
 * Now, point by point:
 * "Wouldn't you agree that this can be applied to the three bands mentioned above?" - I wouldn't agree. My arguments are described earlier. They are neither "hidden", "secret" and they WERE played on radio and covered in major music magazines (even those dedicated to the popular music as a whole, not just hard rock music). They were often promoted on BBC Friday Rock show, BBC being the main radio in the UK. You again brought MTV, which is irrelevant for British bands (plus, I am not sure that Raven wasn't aired on MTV, as they had charting success in the USA).
 * "And that Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Saxon and Motorhead had more media exposure, financial success and were more widely known?" - More of a red herring logical fallacy. Both Maiden and Leppard were more successful than Saxon. Should we move Saxon into "underground" section as well? And also, The Beatles sold more albums than Maiden and Leppard combined, so I guess we should move then into underground section, right? It can go both ways: "Venom was more successful than Iron Pig or 7 Years Itch, so it makes them mainstream." See how ridiculous Your argument "band X is more popular than band Y, so band Y must be underground"?
 * "And it is written nowhere that Diamond Head, Raven and Venom are underground bands. "Remained underground" means that they never reached the mainstream consciousness like the band mentioned in the sentence before did." - "Remained underground" pretty much means what I wrote. You are now clinging to semantics and making a U-turn on Your previous argumentation. Venom is arguably the closest of the three to a real undeground band, and even allmusic describes their two most successful albums as "flirting with mainstream success".
 * I don't really want to discuss this any more, as You seem to ignore basic scientific principles - citation of sources. I have quite a few scientific articles published under my name (and have done uncredited work on some) and I can assure that Your type of argumentation wouldn't work anywhere in academia, to whose principles Wikipedia adheres. Or You found at least one relatively reliable source describing these bands as "underground"? The closest I could find is something that bands like Venom influenced future underground metal (which is 100% true), but not that they themselves were underground. Underground means more than just "didn't have as much commercial success as some other bands". Both Raven, Venom and Diamond Head released albums entering the national charts and played to relatively large audiences all the time, plus Raven and Diamond Head were signed to major labels. StjepanHR (talk) 18:05, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Another source for Venom: "Maiden and Leppard went on to arena success, and Saxon and Venom toiled for years at club and festival level" - book "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" by Joel McIver ; plus A History of Heavy Metal 'Absolutely Hilarious' by Neil Gaiman says something like "Venom were big in Europe, but never made it in the States" StjepanHR (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Again a flexing of muscles and beating of chest, as my arguments are ridiculous and yours are academically sound. Citing sources, you argue that it is written nowhere that Diamond Head, Raven and Venom were underground bands. It is witten nowhere that they were mainstream bands either. Actually, I think that it all returns to my first request to define underground and commercial success and our ideas diverge here. I think that a line should be drawn between the bands which had significant commercial success and public recognition in the mainstream media and those which did not. Your idea is that a few apparition on radio and TV and to have reached the lower parts of the charts, all these things obtained by Diamond Head, Raven and Venom in the timespan of 2-3 years before oblivion, is enough to separate them from the many other groups which published less and remained local. I can't agree on that. They may have had a glimpse of recognition, but Diamond Head disbanded in 1985 and the other two bands "toiled for years at club and festival level", like many other NWOBHM acts. Do you really want to compare Saxon with Venom? The first reached the British top 10 with their albums, gained multiple gold and silver certifications in the UK and was signed to a major from the start, the second auto-produced their albums at their independent label studio (Conrad Lant was the leader of the band and a studio technician there) and recorded only once (not very often!) for the BBC Friday Rock Show. This debate is getting stale, so I asked again for a third opinion. Lewismaster (talk) 17:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please, refrain from accusation of bias and similar things and I will refrain from "chest thumping" as well. Do You really want to compare Venom to Iron Pig? One had charting success, both in the UK and abroad and played in front of thousands of people, the other three coverless caseette demos and split after two years.
 * I am repeating once again - the bands are not divided into "extremely famous" and "underground", there are a lot bands in between. All three bands had regular reviews in Melody Maker and Sounds, two of the main journals at the time, with Diamond Head's name appearing on the cover in October 1985 and their album "Canterbury" had an ad over a whole page in Sounds . Venom had interviews and both album and singles reviews in Sounds, and Melody Maker . In addition, Venom was featured in two top-20 lists of 1982 albums and were mentioned in their yearly review  and they had considerable number of appearances on weekly top lists in Sounds. Also this  is indicative. There is an ad for the poster-selling. There are about 70 posters by 40 or so artists, two of which are Venom's. The other artists featured were Wham, Iron Maiden, Tina Turner, Black Sabbath, Dio, Europe, AC/DC, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, etc. Both Sounds and Melody Maker were "mainstream". You wouldn't have Iron Pig or Pig Iron reviewed there.
 * But I agree, the third opinion is the best solution here. StjepanHR (talk) 20:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:New wave of British heavy metal