text:
Talk:Iyer

Karma or Reservation Policy
Now the entire Tamil Brahmin community,particularly the Iyer community, is a beleaguered community in Tamilnadu. Popular reasoning is that they are being made to atone for the sins they committed on the other communities in the past Karma. Majority find it comfortable to deport themselves to escape the wrath of the violent anti - Brahmin regime of all the parties that come to power in the State of Tamilnadu. Even the God has cursed them and the curse is that the communities will have everything like School, Colleges, Hospitals, Mutt, Corporate houses etc to them not serving them. The most intellectual of this community are those talking derogatory of the community to ensure respectability for the others. The lofty ideals of their way of life cannot now be followed by them due to the prevailing system that drives them to alienate themselves from any ideals for their life.

This has to be discussed because in a forum seeking Reservation for Brahmins, it is the Brahmins who voice opinion against it.

Sailapathi (talk) 03:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)Sailapathi

Wikipedia is not a blog. Kindly don't put your political or social opinions here.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 02:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Message for Ravichandar
Hi,

Please remove reference to "Pudiya Tamizhagam, Dr.Krishnasamy". According to Wikipedia policies, Wikipedia should not be used for political purposes. The statements from that politicians who oppose Iyers and seek to marginalize them, should not be published. Also refer some court cases against him before polluting wikipedia. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gvivek2004 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

You have mentioned this: (rm claim. The paper does not refer to any particular communities) and have deleted the mention of community names from the below:

A 2007 study revealed that Iyers and Iyengars formed a separate cluster along with the high-ranking non-Brahmin communities of Tamil Nadu such as Ambalakarar and Veerakodi Vellalars . Kindly note the neighbour-joning tree on page 4 of the paper showing affinity with Veerakodi Vellalar, which in turn shows affinity with Amabalakarar. The study was to compare Mukkalathor communities with those of Iyers, Iyengars on one end, and Pallans and Vanniyars on the other end. Also note the gene flow amongst communities in the outliers in the heterozygosity vs distance diagram on page 6. The study noted the communities mentioned in the outliers as having higher than predicted heterozygosity. On the same page 6 you can find this mentioned: The two Brahmins (Iyer and Iyengar) alongwith the high rank non-Brahmin formed a separate cluster.....The highrank non-Brahmin group – Veerakodi Vellalar and low rank non-Brahmin – Ambalakarar are the outliers of the above cluster... Since the paper does mention the name of the community specifically as "highrank non-Brahmin group – Veerakodi Vellalar", I am therefore reinstating the mention of the Veerakodi Vellalar in the page. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra

Hi Ravichandar The "practice" of Madi is described but it fails to link it to the practice of untouchability (which is where it finds its roots). Madi is still not diminished, in many Iyer homes, lower castes are still allowed entry into the prayer room, women are considered "impure" during their periods, vessels used by NBs are washed. These practices are very much prevalent amongst practising priests of the Iyer caste. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.235.133 (talk) 15:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This Article Sucks
This article sucks. The outline sucks, there are too many sections, there is too much random information. Why can't it be done properly like any other article on a any other community? This whole Aryan origin stuff is also pointless - this is an Encyclopedia, and until there is evidence that Iyers are Aryans, it should not be included. A very brief mention of the politics of it can be made lower down, but this article is seriously nonsense. It sounds like a hotheaded politically inclined Iyer and non-Brahmin Tamilian have made this article; it looks like a compromise between two retards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.117.106.213 (talk) 18:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Yeah, of course, we ought to imbibe this article with extensive ultra-casteist propaganda like the other caste-related articles on Wikipedia. Anyway, since you find so many drawbacks in this article, why don't you create an account yourself and edit it. This article has 200+ citations, mind you, not one or two but 200. Now could you atleast find a single caste-related article in Wikipedia with so many sources. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 05:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I've only referred about 50-odd books to write this article. Too little, perhaps! I hope this All-Knowing genius might be able to enlighten us with some useful knowledge on the Iyer community.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 05:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally thinking as an Iyer myself that this article could do away with the criticism portion and merge it with a greater article tamil brahmins overall are just a traditional community and ethnicity. 108.39.84.90 (talk) 01:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

You can insult me all you want. But the fact remains that this article sucks balls. It really looks like it's been written by politically inclined retards. This article will never get a star rating... ever. It needs a total revamp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.5.210 (talk) 21:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Oh no mister! I am not abusing you. I can very well understand that you are exceptionally great person from the way you contemptuously discard this article as "worser than articles on other Indian communities". But you see, I cannot recognize your abilities unless you could show them in "improving" this article.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 15:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

 * This article is cheap propaganda written with personal agenda by Non-Iyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.135.110.2 (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

well, the article is very bad. It's still not as bad as "articles on other Indian communities", but that isn't saying much. I have no idea what the GA tag is doing on this page.

The article needs to get its act together, stop bickering over racial/genetics red herrings, and instead give information on this population group in a detached manner, without "shrouded in mystery" and similar hilarities. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Sub-Sects grouping
The grouping of subsects is perfectly in accordance with Edgar Thurston, and to a lesser extent, Castes in Indian Politics and Jogender Nath Bhattacharya. This sort of alphabetical group of sections or sub-sections (which, of course, don't comprise a list) are unnecessary and disruptive, almost akin to vandalism. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 16:00, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Origin stories
I reviewed the first paragraphs about the origins including the lead paragraph. Notice, that almost every reference regarding "Ayya" = "Arya" as well as North Indian name associations are critically violating against the quality sources guidelines. Such important information doesn't need random website articles, but well reviewed and respected books by all parties. Actually one or two of these references were real books and I googled for "THE EVOLUTION OF AN ETHNIC IDENTITY — The Tamils in Sri Lanka" and I found a review by The Hindu. Another book "The land of the Permauls, or, Cochin, its past and its present By Francis Day" (google scholar) didn't give me any information about Iyers or Bhattar's. I'm ignoring now the random websites, which look simply aweful. Some references were also attributed to the wrong sentence like in the Arya Ayya sentence, where infact no reference was found about Arya. I understand, that this is not merely a coincidence, but possibly an attempt to make the Iyers look as pure Aryans, while their mothertongues were Dravidian for many centuries. We will only know more about it, when we get proper sources. Needless to say, that the paragraphs should be reviewed sentence by sentence, word by word by experienced users. --Neutralpointofyou (talk) 17:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Since, despite the fact that you are new to Wikipedia, yet you make such lofty discourses on "quality sources guidelines", I would like to know whether you are actually aware of Wikipedia's expectations. And of course, the book by Francis Day does speak about Bhattars or Putters, see here and this. And the other sources are also pretty okay. There have been plenty of books referred to for the sake of this article.

 * And then, of course, I agree with you that all Iyers need not necessarily be non-Dravidian. Neither has it been claimed anywhere in the article that Iyers were all Indo-Aryans without exception. The article only chronicles individual waves of Brahmin migrations to the Tamil land. And just because there is evidence of migration of sufficient numbers of Iyers to Tamil Nadu from outside, it does not mean that they are all Indo-Aryans by race. Most proven migrations have, after all, been from the Telugu country; in fact, a fairly large proportion of Tamil people are actually migrants from the present-day Andhra Pradesh, including Naickers, Reddiyars, etc. How come does this mean that they are Indo-Aryans? And are Iyers the only people who had migrated to Tamil Nadu from non-Tamil lands?- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

 * As for the Ayya-Arya thing, it has been clearly explained. A sufficient minority believes that the word Ayya is derived from the Sanskrit Arya and the fact is mentioned here in accordance with Wikipedia's neutrality policy which you claim to enforce. And even if this derivation is indeed true, then please keep in mind that the word Arya or its derivatives weren't used to denote Indo-Aryans alone, neither does the article claim that Iyers were Indo-Aryans because of that. Take for example, the Arya Vaishyas from Andhra Pradesh. Can you say for sure that they are Indo-Aryans basing your claims solely upon their caste-name alone! There have been various derivatives of the word Arya used in parts of India in order to address people in a respectful manner. Take for example, the -ar suffix which people append to their caste-names; a Mudali is respectfully addressed to as "Mudali-ar" and a Chetti is respectfully addressed as "Chetti-ar". Though I am not a professional linguist, I still feel that these suffixes might very well have been derived from the word "Arya". - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 15:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi! You are following the wrong path. We should'nt do own researches about Ayya-Arya but give proper references for this. Historians might think, that this is related together, but there must be a good source for it. That's the only thing, I'm asking for. The various websites don't provide the quality I'm asking for, that's it. Someone must find books or scientific journals for this kind of claims. Of course I know the different meanings of Arya, but this is not the issue here. However, I don't think that the -ar issue has something to do with arya at all. I think this is nonsense.

 * I would like to inform you, that in the recent past, there was a nature issue, which has neglected the theory of Aryan and Dravidian human races. The whole country was mixed 40 thousands years ago with 2 different populations. This article doesn't provide these new findings. Instead it's talking about "little difference among Tamils" when there is infact "no real difference in whole India". Maybe the genetics section needs to be rewritten in the near future. --Neutralpointofyou (talk) 17:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Aryan invasion/migration during the time of Raja Raja Chola??????
Is this editor trying to crack a joke?????- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 16:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

HLA affiniities shows Iyers are descendents of central asia http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/5220/brahmin_dna_study1.htm

 * The page is currently not accessible. Besides none of the "sources" you used mentioned the word "Iyer" at all. Please don't try to convertr Wikipedia articles into propaganda pieces or add your own original research. If you wish to use a portion of the webspace for projecting your own beliefs, try creating a blog of your own. Wikipedia is not a place to add nonsense.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 04:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Revert
I have reverted multiple edits by as they removed long standing sourced content, and added dubiously sourced content like Iyers came from Arya, referencing it to etymologyonline for the word Aryan and so on. Unless some clear evidence is presented by the editor that the content doesn't belong in this article, it should not be removed. - Spaceman  Spiff  02:40, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * User:Jaggi81 is a long-time vandal who indulges in persistent racist POV-pushing. See here. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 05:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Do have a look at the blog he frequently provides as a source. Must be a P. N. Oak-kinda joker :D- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 05:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * He has been blocked for a week now. I just noticed that. - Spaceman  Spiff  05:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I am beginning to smell a rat here. User:Neutralpointofyou protested against the inclusion of claims that Tamil Brahmins migrated from outside and I replied by explaining that a large number of Tamil Brahmins could have migrated from Andhra Pradesh. Now, User:Jaggi81 claims that Telugu people were Aryans and hence Tamil Brahmins were also Aryans. Could Jaggi81 be a strawpuppet of Neutralpointofyou.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service  06:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I can assure you, that I'm not a sockpuppet of anyone. All I said was, that there is a new study out there about the origins of the Indian people. I have not denied any possible outside Tamil Nadu origin of the Iyers, only the outside India origin. --Neutralpointofyou (talk) 17:14, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I had modified the entry on Iyer genetics using as reference a paper on the subject, which was then removed by SpacemanSpiff on the context of not providing reference - despite the fact that I had. Care to explain? --Coolian (talk)
 * You should read the edit summary. - Spaceman  Spiff  15:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Aiyars and aryans
There was no concept of Brahmins in dravidian society, ie no caste based on Varna. This is imported from aryan system. Brahmins of TN are different from dravidians. Its evident from their traditiosn, skin colour and exxessive use of sanskrit in their dialects. Anyone have more information on this? can we discuss? Vvmundakkal (talk) 08:39, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I am getting reference to prove that Aiyar derived from Aryan or aryar

http://books.google.com/books?id=FL0OAAAAIAAJ&q=Aryan+aiyar&dq=Aryan+aiyar&lr=

http://books.google.com/books?id=rMfWAAAAMAAJ&q=Aryan+aiyar&dq=Aryan+aiyar&lr= Vvmundakkal (talk) 08:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

 * If this is the case, then Tamil Kshatriyas are also outsiders. As far as traditions, skin colour and usage of Sanskrit are concerned, Iyers do not differ much from Saiva Mudaliars or other forward-caste Tamil people. Do I need to show you pictures of Jayanthi Natarajan, M. Karunanidhi, etc.

 * Your crap doesn't belong here simply because it is blatant propaganda. And if there was no concept of Brahmins in "ancient" Tamil society it does not imply that there had not been the admission of people of other communities as Brahmins.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I heard that they(Palakkad Iyers) were also known as Arya Pattar in kerala. I also believe they are descendents of Aryan migrants from North IndiaTn pillai

 * There were also Arya Vaishyas. The kings of Jaffna were called Arya Chakravarthi. The Nayak kings of Ettaiyapuram had the surname "Aiyan".

 * If we are to go by your logic, more than half of Tamil Nadu's population is made of "Aryans" from outside.

 * Ravi(Office of the secret service), i am not here with any propaganda, nor i am interested much in these subjects. Wikipedia is the place to share authentic information, not to give someone's personal views to the world. The tamil and prakrit Word Ayya is equivalent to Sanskrit Arya, there are tens of authentic references for that. please refer below links

 * http://books.google.com/books?q=Ayya+sanskrit&btnG=Search+Books

 * http://books.google.com/books?id=A1JuAAAAMAAJ&q=Ayya+sanskrit&dq=Ayya+sanskrit

 * http://books.google.com/books?id=vcwUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=Ayya+sanskrit#v=onepage&q=Ayya%20sanskrit&f=false

 * http://books.google.com/books?id=APVtAAAAMAAJ&q=Ayya+sanskrit&dq=Ayya+sanskrit

 * So, if i go by your words,authors of all these books will have same propaganda. I am not sure whether you know or not, in north india also the surname ayya was in use.

 * Regarding colour, I did not all Aiyars were fair and looking good. What i intended to says comparatively, ie, majority, are fair. That doesnt mean all other upper caste people are not fair. Its just comparative observation.

 * And regarding entire Tamil population of TN, it doesn't imply that all were true Dravidian or Tamils. This is the case with most of states or races in india. Migrations and cross migration were common. This is also evident in other parts of the world. Simhalization has caused many Tamils started using simhala as their 1st language in Simhala dominated areas of Lanka. And vice versa in tamil dominated areas. Another example Jews of Cochin, Knanaya chsristians or travancore, both were migrants from central asia, now uses malayalam as 1st language. That doesnt means most of tamilians in TN are not tamils. In fact Tamils are one of the rare race which share almost similar cultural and linguistic among its subgroups or caste. However Aiyars are different story.

 * When Buddhism was in its peak in South India, the religion and its belief were always denoted with Aryan or ayyan. Ayyappan or arya appan means aryan god or buddhist god. Another name of ayyappan is sastha is also the name of Buddha. Dharma saranam of buddhism is also referred in Ayyapan's devotees vindicate the notion that Ayyappan was buddhist god

 * I wanted re-factor my 1st post.There were no concept called Brahmans in south Indian society or Dravidian society before the arrivals of vishnavaite missionaries from north. These people were Aryans who settled in south india and propogated their religion. Their descendants are  Aiyars/Aiyankars in Tamil, Bhats in in Canara.Migration to kerala happened in 10th and 12th centuries and they mixed with local buddhist monnks, sill, they more of Aryan blood by race.

 * These my observations and comments, some with solid references, not a propaganda. If you dont like these just ignore. Thanks

Vvmundakkal (talk) 13:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvmundakkal (talk • contribs) 13:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot for clarifying. But your argument on basis of etymology is not at all convincing. Firstly, are you aware that there is a sub-sect of Vadama Iyers called Thummagunta Dravida. There is also a sect of Telugu Brahmins called Aaraama Dravidulu closely related to the Vadama. There is also a subsect of Brahacharanam Iyers called Puthur Dravida who had settled down in Puttur in Andhra Pradesh. Rahul Dravid's ancestors were originally Tamil Brahmins from Tanjore. To this day, Andhra Brahmin society is divided into Vaidikis, Niyopgi and Dravidas of whom the Dravidas are exclusively made of migrants from Tamil Nadu. So, your Ayya=Arya hypothesis does not automatically lead to the conclusion that Iyers are Aryans by race.

 * And then, Brahmins existed in Tamil Nadu long before the rise of Vaishnavism which happened in the eleventh century during the time of Ramanujacharya. There have been references to Brahmins in classics of the Sangam period albeit few. Though I would not rule out the possiblity that some Iyers were indeed migrants from the north, not all were. There is stronmg evidewnce to back this up. Your hypothesis that Tamil Brahmins are all Aryans just because the varna system is of Aryan origin is as erratic as claiming that all Indian knights were Britons just because the concept of knighthood was introduced in India by the British.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You are welcome to have your view and to share it with others, however there are some flaws. Firstly, Ayyappa may be derived from "Arya", but is by no means evidence for a Buddhist shrine. There is no evidence at all to show that Sabarimala was a Buddhist shrine, either archaelogically or historically. Ayya was used as a term of respect, since Arya mean "Noble". Also, the term "Sharanam", which is the main evidence put forward for a Buddhist influence, is moreso a result of the Bhakti movement, which preached Sharanagati (surrender to the Lord) Secondly, the Vaishnava movement gained strength only in the 12th century with Ramanujacharya, and the Bhakti movement of the time. There are mentions of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu from the Sangam Age, about 300BC, and could well have existed in Tamil Nadu before that itself. Thirdly, migration to Kerala and Canara occurred well before the 12th century, since Adi Shankaracharya (born a Kerala Brahmin) lived in the 7th century. There is also no proof of settlement in Kerala by Brahmins, and their unique practices of Shrauta, have set them apart from other Brahmins. At the end of the day the fact is there is no solid proof of migration to Tamil Nadu, by either Aryans or Dravidians. As well there is no proof of an Aryan race, which is in itself an outdated concept. By all means, express your views, but please find evidence before presenting your views as actual fact.58.165.6.47 (talk) 06:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I have provided enough references to link Aryan and Aiyer. Please dont deny that. FYI, the present dravidian race, south indians, never called themselves dravidians. They were identified by differently. the word dravida was used by arayn brahmins of north to address the brahmins of south, the panchadravida bramins, later used to res the whole south indians. btb, in marathi community also there are brahmins and SCs with dravid as surname.
 * I have not observed that there were no brahmins before 10/12 century. But the migration happened during that time and mixed with some budhist monks and already setteled brahmins(as per keralolpathi, some mukkuvars also given brahmin status. These mix ups could be the reason why brahmins of kerala are different from other bramins). Brahmin migration was continuous when different kingdom promoted it. This is the case with TN and other states. Stronger brahmin influence came when there is mass migration and strong support from local kings.
 * Sabari mala temple customs and belief are very much different from other major temples in kerala. There are many evidence which is currently unearthed to point that sabari mala shrine is buddist vihara. Vvmundakkal (talk) 14:17, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Migosh! How many times do I need to tell you that the "titular Aryan" need not be an "ethnic Aryan"! As for your claim that Marathi Dalits have the surname "Dravid", could you please provide sources. You claim to possess extensive evidence but the only "evidence" you've provided until now is to prove that the word "Ayya" is related to "Arya", nothing else. And as for the usage of the word "Dravida", aren't you aware of the Dravida kingdom, or even that the term "Dravida" is etymologically related to the word "Tamil".- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 17:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Talk with references please. The brahmins of Kerala, the Namboothiris are probably the purest of all the brahmins castes in India due to their ridiculous rules and strict marital systems. I have never heard of Mukkuvars given brahmin status, reference please. Quote "Castes and Tribes of South India" on the Nambuthiri brahmans, book 5 page 157:
 * He is perhaps, as his measurements seem to prove, the truest Aryan in Southern India, and not only physically, but in his customs, habits, and ceremonies, which are so welded into him that forsake them he cannot if he would.--Jack.Able (talk) 07:33, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Recent Edits on Gurukkal and some small changes in presentation of a paragraph on Origin
I have made some recent edits with a clear sense of purpose and based on well known and accepted evidences 1. The moment we include Gurukkals as Iyers we talk about Adi-Saiva Brahmins and not just Smarthas 2. That Link to an Aryan Origin, brings us close to Aryan theory and we dont need to give a detailed treatment in first paragraph as it is explained in much detail later in article and in the provided links within wikipedia and elsewhere. But what caused me to first change this paragraph is the use of the term popular tradition- Can something be a tradition just because it is only 50-100 years old. Imagine the consequence today informed readers know that the theories are only as old as 100 years or little more. But 50 years from now with repeated usage of such theories it could easily be assumed that it much older.So use of word opinion takes into account anything that can be classsified tradition and otherwise. Among other changes I have made, the evidence to the opposite that Iyers are not always North Indians comes from a genetic study that in general all Tamil Populations and castes have received gentic inflow from castes and populations from other regions of the country. This is sufficient to show that there is an evidence to discredit the opinion - Iyers are North Indians and other tamilians are pure south Indian because what we have is a generous intermingling of various castes. Furthermore if people want to still talk about no brahmin dravidians being somehow more tamil than others, we are still left with a very funny situation. That Nadars and other secluded tribes of Tamil Nadu can indeed be considered very ancient to this part of the country. At the same time these tribes were traditionally not among the best speakers of classical tamil, and as such there is no evidence of that, inspite of the tall claims being made by Nadars. The Nadar Tamil can usually best desribed as Nadar Tamil, which is very different from classical Tamil. Needless to say purely unmingled populations of Tamil Nadu are very small in number. --Harishsubramanian (talk) 13:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources - self published, non-verifiable, etc
I'm looking for credible sources that say Brahmins should abstain from alcohol. There are two sources in this article that are cited claiming that Brahmins are required to abstain from alcohol. These are:

 * 1) Universal History, page 104
 * 2) Doniger

I looked at the first source and I'm probably looking in the wrong place but this source seems completely irrelevant - it is about Armenia, Turkey and Persia. The exact page numbers are not given for the 2nd source. Can anyone help?

Other sources that may possibly have problems:

 * 1) No page number --
 * 2) Self published --
 * 3) Mytho-history or pseudo-history --
 * 4) Self published --
 * 5) Self published --
 * 6) Broken --
 * 7) Self-published --
 * 8) Self published --
 * 9) Self published --
 * 10) Self published --
 * 11) -- Should be called legendary origin or something like that. It is not a correct anthropological account, just legend.
 * 12) The caption provided for this image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Madras_Kappi.jpg] seems to be a WP:SYN violation.

-Zuggernaut (talk) 19:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Usha Uthup - Not an Iyer
Please remove Usha Uthup's name from the "patronage of art" segment. She was born an Iyer, but she is married to a Christain. Refer: the wikipedia page on her - "She is married to Jani Chacko Uthup." She had mentioned in an interview that she was baptised and therefore technically she is a Christian. She is no longer an Iyer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.110.201 (talk) 08:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Review of GA status
I have absolutely no idea why this has been rated as a Good Article. It relies principally on the work of Edgar Thurston, a scientific racist and plagiarist who had a flawed sampling methodology and was writing over a century ago. It would not be quite so bad if this was made clear and if, for example, the past tense was used more frequently. For example, I find it difficult to accept that the Cuisine section properly reflects the habits of today. - Sitush (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

 * The different sections refer to traditional practices and need not be followed by all members of the community. And hundred years is too short a period for traditions to change. There are other refs too.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

 * The article makes least use of Thurston in the "Genetics" section. We do not use Thurston to establish the race of this community but only for his record of different cultural practices. Can you please explain why Thurston was a plagiarist?- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 18:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Hi Ravi, we should not use Thurston in the present tense: "Iyers are ..." is plain wrong, whereas "Iyers were noted in 1909 ..." might be ok. We should never use such old sources as if they were current, and in the case of Thurston it is particularly moot because his books mostly comprise a compendium of the thoughts & observations of others, many of whom are dubious and all of whom were by definition writing before him. Sometimes 40 and 50 years before him. His plagiarism comes about because although it is true that he usually does acknowledge his sources (unlike, say, J. Wikeley), he quite often does not. The modern AnSI surveys directed by Kumar Suresh Singh are even worse in that respect.
 * I've been doing a fair amount of work on the articles for people such as Herbert Hope Risley, William Crooke, Horace Arthur Rose and, yes, Edgar Thurston. Those articles are still by no means complete but what is evident is just how antiquated and methodologically poor those writers now seem. I am aware of the centenary conference that was held in Thurston's honour but it changes nothing: the guy is not sufficiently reliable to use without substantial bolstering from more modern sources. Even on issues such as culture, he made sweeping generalisations based on small samples and his classification of the various communities was based on flawed theories (eg: Aryanism) and second-hand knowledge. It is not the case that we should avoid him, but we certainly should look to minimising how much he is used. - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

 * While I do agree with you, except for a couple of lines mentioning the nasal index and cranial index, the section on "Genetics" does not use Thurston's book at all. The only sections which make use of Thurston are the section on "Subdivisions" and "Rituals". Since most books such as Rajini Kothari's Caste in Indian politics, Andre Beteille's Class, Caste and Power, S. N. Sadasivan's A Social history of India and Kathleen Gough use Thurston, I feel that the stratification is very much valid today. As for the "Rituals" section, most of the rituals are common to all Brahmin communities and can very well be moved out from the article. The criticisms section, etc., don't make use of Thurston at all.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 02:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 April 2012
Orgin of this word The work Iyer is corruption of prakrit "Arya" also Aryan, the terminal "aar" or "kaar" is added as honorific title of address.This terminal "aar" and "kaar" is still seen in Marathi language. Arya + aar = Aryaaar corrupted to Ayyar Arya + kar = Aryaarkar coorpted to Aryakar or Ayyankar

203.192.196.157 (talk) 09:21, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌ Please provide a reliable source for this info. Pol430  talk to me 22:09, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Aryan Origin
The begining of the article cites possible Aryan origin of the Iyers ( see similarities in the words ), but then says it is debunked by some research. I looked at the research and found that this was a fake science research done by Benaras Hindu University that has an agenda from Hindu fundamentalists that do not want to accept the Aryan invasion history. This research cited is not accepted by rest of the historian community and the existing linguisting and genetic research overwhelmigly prove that the central asian Aryan invasion thoery of India is true. There is nothing shameful about it, its high time the Hindu fundamentalists accept it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.96.55.163 (talk) 01:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Aryan Invasion theory is 100% accurate. Iyers are the original Aryans. Please remove the sentence where it says Aryan theory has been debunked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brahmin 007 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC) Before mocking Aryan migration theory this "academic community" must explain some points.Like.. 1)how is it that majority of the languages of Eurasia have a common origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language (the geographical spread is wider than the mocking ) 2)explain the evidence of horse domestication in Eurasian steppes in relation to its importance Vedic texts..still existing wild species of horses are found in those regions hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_horse

3)Soma/Haoma plant in Veda/Avesta grows naturally in colder climates of Central Asia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haoma  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerexes9 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

 * AIT is in fact widely mocked by the academic community, as our various articles on the subject say. It is to all intents and purposes a fringe theory nowadays. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2016
In the Criticism topic, there is some information with wrong reference. need to edit Pdmurugan (talk) 10:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * What is wrong? Please propose your changes here and, if necessary, provide reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 10:30, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

hi, i would to talk /edit about the content in Criticism of Iyer wiki page
Hi,

I would to talk /edit about content in Criticism section of Iyer wiki page.

The article reference 90 doesn't hold any authentication and not provided any support link and that is deadlink; You guys should remove the words about the Pallar immediately, its hurts lot which is never applicable to Devendrar/ Mallar/ Pallar; some bstrd purposely done derogatory remark on other community. It should be removed immediately. if any question or information on this, contact for clarification, would like to see action on the same. Hope you guys understand the nature of the issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maruthanilavendan (talk • contribs) 13:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I am going to remove it. However, we do not remove merely because a link is now dead, nor because something might offend someone. In this case I have come across the linked website before and it was hopelessly unreliable. I note that the Wayback Machine excludes it from its archiving. - Sitush (talk) 13:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Video for sharing
Hi I have a small video that I made as a part of a filmmaking class that shows the indian morning rituals in a Iyer household. What would be a good place to include it in? --Shrutim21 (talk) 04:11, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

 * Sorry but your own video is unlikely to be relevant to Wikipedia. I wish you luck with your film career. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:28, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2017
______________ Present Content: Dalit leader and founder of political party Pudiya Tamizhagam, Dr.Krishnasamy admits that the Anti-Brahmin Movement had not succeeded up to the expectations and that there continues to be as much discrimination of Dalits as had been before.

"So many movements have failed. In Tamil Nadu there was a movement in the name of anti-Brahmanism under the leadership of Periyar. It attracted Dalits, but after 30 years of power, the Dalits understand that they are as badly-off - or worse-off - as they were under the Brahmans. Under Dravidian rule, they have been attacked and killed, their due share in government service is not given, they are not allowed to rise."

________________ In above content there is inappropriate word Dalit related to Pudiya Tamilagam; Puthiya Tamilagam is party belong to Devendra Kula Vellalar Community, they are not related to Dalit at all, in Sangam period to till date their occupation is paddy/ agriculturalist(Kudumbar/Mallar, Kurmis in North) and worshiper of God Indra(Indira Kulam), They have rich spiritual heritages; Major temples in Tamil Nadu build by their Ancestor Pandiya, Cholas period; still they have first rights in all temple events and they are are pure supporter of Bharatiya Janatha Parties Principals, welcomed first includes recent moves "Ban on Cattle Slaughter"; this is due to respecting Cattle as part of their day to day Agricultural usage life of their community peoples and respect / prey Cows in Pongal Festivals(In ancient period, its Indra Vizha) and many;

I strongly object to use the word dalit in Puthiya Thamilagam or Dr. Krishnasamy. There are many dalit outfits include VCK / Arunthathiyar parties agree eating beef is there right in openly and thru films(Director Ranjit Films).

I request you to remove the whole contents Marked which hurt sentiments of Devendra Kula Vellalar. The link Provided [72], which purposely drag Devendra Community into Ambedkar.org; This article was made content with intention to derogate Devendrar Community and Puthiya Thamilagam.

I would appreciate your prompt understanding and quick action on removing the marked contents, any information i would happy to assist. Thank you. RajeshPandian.sa (talk) 14:39, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Train2104 (t • c) 17:25, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

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status column for telaga caste
Someone kindly take a minute to add useful and interesting content to Telaga caste, Kapu caste, balija caste pages

Use the link - http://www.kapusangam.com/history.php

Also, Telaga caste is Forward caste. Mention it in the right column — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.147.202.107 (talk) 18:47, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2019
The page says Iyer is a "caste" in the Brahmin community, which is technically incorrect. Iyer is a "sub-community" in the Brahmin community similar to Iyengars, Namboothiris, etc. The word caste has been applied here incorrectly. Xodus99 (talk) 06:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Could you point to some reliable sources that I could add for the claim? Thank you. – Þjarkur (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: nil response to request for sources in 48 hours, so closing request. if you provide reliable sources here, please reopen the request by changing "|answered=yes" to "|answered=no". <b style="color:black">Nici</b><b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 14:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2020
Notable people
 * Sir CV Raman
 * Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Astrophysicist, Nobel Prize Physics winner
 * Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, Nobel Prize Chemistry winner
 * Nambi Narayanan, ISRO Scientist
 * Srinivasa Ramanujan, mathematician
 * Akshay Venkatesh, fields medallist, mathematician
 * V.S. Ramachandran, neurologist and neuropsychologist
 * Srinivasa Varadhan, mathematician and Abel Prize laureate
 * G.N. Ramachandran, professor of biophysics, discoverer of collagen structure
 * Rajagopalan Vasudevan, Indian scientist who developed an innovative method to reuse plastic waste to construct better, more durable and very cost-effective roads.
 * Vasan Iyer, research scientist at the German Aerospace Center (DLR) Vasan83 (talk) 11:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Not done, not directly verified in the cited sources. Also don't add yourself to Wikipedia articles, see WP:COI. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:37, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Another problem, many of these are Tamil Brahmins in general rather than Iyers specifically - Ramanujan for example is Iyengar C1MM (talk) 00:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Significant bias towards Brahmins
Much of this article, especially the last part, is written specifically from the Brahmin point of view and attempts to either defame Dravidian parties or defend the Brahmins from the accusations against them rather than presenting them in an objective light. For example, it mentions "Alleged" discrimination when it is perfectly well-documented that the Brahmins did not allow most non-Brahmins from entering their temples, as well as a host of other casteist terms. Can someone please fix these issues? C1MM (talk) 01:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

 * With all due respect sir it is the Brahmins who maintain temples from our point of view these are simply rules which must be followed to allow for the sacred atmosphere of the temple. Generally speaking a Brahmin should follow all the rules and hence preserve his own sacredness, lower varnas had a much less regulated lifestyle due to not being of clergy and hence were not allowed to enter. I agree this should be in #criticism. 108.39.84.90 (talk) 01:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Origin section needs to be expanded
More information needs to go into the origin section. Readers are interested in knowing about the origin of the south Indian caste called Iyers. Currently, the origin section has a link to Indo-Aryan migration theories? What is one supposed to make of it? The Indo-Aryan article speaks about Indo-Iranian people originating in the Ural mountains somewhere in Russia. So you got onto a chariot in the Central Steppes and then arrived at the Indus Valley Civilisationaa while worshipping Indra, drinking soma, burning cows and munching beef jerkiesaa? Then the article talks about Aryan invasion versus migration theory. So after conquering the IVC you thought that it would do good to demote Indra and switched to present godsaa? Iyers are scions and torch-bearers of Andronovo culturaa? Also, mention when Iyers migrated to south India as there is no information on this. And then the origin section has a link to an article on gene pool. What is this for? Are you indigenous south Indian people who took up sanskrit and vedic religion due to a fusion of cultures or are you of mixed ancestry? or are you an unaltered homogeneous gene pool from the time you arrived from Russia or wherever? I am not even going ask why most Iyers look south Indian so it is totally cool if it is the last one, just tweak the lede from Tamil origin to Tamil speaking Brahmins if it is just a linguistic affiliation. Nittawinoda (talk) 04:35, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This is so offensive.  μ  Talk  17:05, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

 * The intention was not to offend but to rather draw attention. Again, the origin section has to be amended so that there is no misinformation unless it is part of some twisted strategy to elevate Iyers. All Iyers may have migrated from the Ural mountains in Central Asia. All Iyers may very well be homogenenous. No one is disputing this. But all Iyers are definitely not Brahmins and this migration does not necessarily make all Iyers Aryans. It is trivial to define an Aryan and this is beyond blood, bones and genetic composition. A full blooded Jewish person with no mixed ancestry could very well be Aryan. No, Aryan is not noble, it is something definite but I have no intention to expand further on an open forum like this. But the case rests, accentuating the European ancestry does not necessarily make someone Aryan so the origin section needs to be reworked. I have no intention to do anything with it due to a conflict of interest. Nittawinoda (talk) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

To add to article
To add to the lead of this article: the Tamil spellings of this name: ஐயர் and அய்யர். 173.88.246.138 (talk) 00:09, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2023
Traditionally, the Iyer community, which belongs to the Brahmin caste of South India, has predominantly followed a vegetarian diet, adhering to their cultural and religious beliefs. However, in recent times, there has been an observed shift in dietary practices among some members of the Iyer community, with a small but notable number choosing to include non-vegetarian food in their diets. This shift in dietary preferences is influenced by factors such as individual choices, cultural influences, and evolving societal norms. Mikey.patterson (talk) 15:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No reliable source provided. OhNo itsJamie Talk 16:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Iyer


text: User:Unkamunka

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Unkamunka


text:
Marie of Korikos

Marie of Korikos (1321 – before 1405) served as the queen consort of Armenia from 1344–1363 and 1365–1373 through marriage to the kings Constantine III and Constantine IV, respectively.

After her second husband's death in 1373, she served as the penultimate ruler of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, governing what little remained of the kingdom as regent from April 1373 to the election and coronation of Constantine's successor Leo V on 14 September 1374.

Life
Marie's maternal grandparents were Philip I, Prince of Taranto and his first wife Thamar Angelina Komnene. Philip was son of Charles II of Naples and his wife Maria of Hungary.

Marie's paternal grandparents were Hayton of Corycus and Isabella of Ibelin, daughter of Guy of Ibelin and Maria of Armenia, herself daughter of Isabella, Queen of Armenia and her second husband Hethum I, King of Armenia.

Marie's father had previously been married to Margaret of Ibelin and had a daughter, her half-sister Alice of Korikos, who married Leo IV, King of Armenia but was murdered by him in 1329 along with Marie's father who had acted as regent but had killed various members of the Armenian royal family.

Queen consort, 1344–1373
Marie married her first husband in 1340, Constantine III, King of Armenia. From this marriage she became Queen consort.

Both sons died in childhood and neither succeeded their father. They are named by their father in a contemporary manuscript which records a donation to the convent of Sis in memory of his sons Oshin and Lewon.

After her husband's death on December 21, 1362, he was eventually succeeded by his cousin Constantine IV, King of Armenia. Maria married the new King of Armenia but they had no children. Maria died before 1405.

Constantine IV was a weak and unpopular ruler. His reign saw the dwindling of Armenian domains in Cilicia to consist of little more than a narrow coastal stretch around the city of Sis. By the end of his reign, the Armenians retained control of only the city's citadel. The Armenians hoped to find a possible successor to the throne that would connect them to Cyprus and Western Europe, thus securing support and aid. They first sent a delegation to the Cypriote prince Leo de Lusignan, nephew of the former king Constantine II, though he rejected the proposal. When the delegation returned in April 1373, Constantine IV was assassinated.

Queen regent, 1373–1374
Upon the death of Constantine IV, an heir not yet having been chosen, Marie became regent of what remained of the kingdom.

Further delegations continued to be sent in search for a possible king. The Armenian nobles still desired to make Leo their king and sent a delegation to Peter II of Cyprus to ask for his approval of Leo's succession to the throne. Peter refused since he desired the Armenian throne for himself. Shortly thereafter, Leo nevertheless arrived in Armenia, accompanied by a tiny army to Sis. He reached the capital on 26 July 1374 and was crowned on 14 September, ending Marie's regency.

Issue
With Constantine III, King of Armenia:
 * Oshin (d. 1356), died young
 * Lewon (1338 – before 1357), died young

title: Marie of Korikos


text: User:Baloo rch/Sandbox/Naval Battle of Iquique


text:
Thor (comic book)

Thor is the name of several comic book titles featuring the character Thor and published by Marvel Comics, beginning with the original Thor comic book series which debuted in 1966.

Publication history
The Marvel Comics superhero Thor debuted in the science fiction/fantasy anthology title Journey into Mystery #83 (cover-date August 1962), and was created by editor-plotter Stan Lee, scripter Larry Lieber, and penciller-plotter Jack Kirby.

Subsequent stories of the 13-page feature "The Mighty Thor" continued to be plotted by Lee, and were variously scripted by Lieber or by Robert Bernstein, working under the pseudonym "R. Berns". Various artists penciled the feature, including Jack Kirby, Joe Sinnott, Don Heck, and Al Hartley. With Journey into Mystery #101 (Feb. 1964), the series began a long and definitive run by writer and co-plotter Lee and penciler and co-plotter Kirby that lasted until the by-then-retitled Thor #179 (Aug. 1970).

The five-page featurette "Tales of Asgard" was added in Journey into Mystery #97 (Oct. 1963), followed by "The Mighty Thor" becoming the dominant cover logo with issue #104 (May 1964). The feature itself expanded to 18 pages in #105, which eliminated the remaining anthological story from each issue; it was reduced to 16 pages five issues later. Comics historian Les Daniels noted that "the adventures of Thor were gradually transformed from stories about a strange-looking superhero into a spectacular saga." Artist Chic Stone, who inked several early Thor stories, observed that "Kirby could just lead you through all these different worlds. The readers would follow him anywhere."

Journey into Mystery was retitled Thor (per the indicia, or The Mighty Thor per most covers) with issue #126 (March 1966). "Tales of Asgard" was replaced by a five-page featurette starring the Inhumans from #146–152 (Nov. 1967–May 1968), after which featurettes were dropped and the Thor stories expanded to Marvel's then-standard 20-page length. Marvel filed for a trademark for "The Mighty Thor" in 1967 and the United States Patent and Trademark Office issued the registration in 1970.

After Kirby left the title, Neal Adams penciled issues #180–181 (Sept.-Oct. 1970). John Buscema then became the regular artist the following issue. Buscema continued to draw the book almost without interruption until #278 (Dec. 1978). Lee stopped scripting soon after Kirby left, and during Buscema's long stint on the book, the stories were mostly written by Gerry Conway, Len Wein, or Roy Thomas. Thomas continued to write the title after Buscema's departure, working much of the time with the artist Keith Pollard; during this period Thomas integrated many elements of traditional Norse mythology into the title, with specific stories translated into comics form. Following Thomas's tenure, Thor had a changing creative team.

In the mid-1970s, Marvel considered giving the character a second series as part of parent company Magazine Management's line of black-and-white comics magazines. A story written by Steve Englehart for the aborted project appeared in Thor Annual #5 (1976). A black-and-white Thor story appeared in Marvel Preview #10 (Winter 1977).

Walt Simonson took over both writing and art as of #337 (Nov. 1983). His stories placed a greater emphasis on the character's mythological origins. Simonson's run as writer-artist lasted until #367 (May 1986), although he continued to write – and occasionally draw – the book until issue #382 (Aug. 1987). Simonson's run, which introduced the character Beta Ray Bill, was regarded as a popular and critical success. Simonson's later stories were drawn by Sal Buscema, who describes Simonson's stories as "very stimulating. It was a pleasure working on his plots, because they were a lot of fun to illustrate. He had a lot of great ideas, and he took Thor in a totally new direction." Asked why he was leaving Thor, Simonson said that he felt the series was due for a change in creative direction, and that he wanted to reduce his work load for a time. After Simonson's departure, Marvel's editor-in-chief at the time, Tom DeFalco, became the writer. Working primarily with artist Ron Frenz, DeFalco stayed on the book until #459 (Feb. 1993).

As a consequence of the "Heroes Reborn" crossover story arc of the 1990s, Thor was removed from mainstream Marvel continuity and with other Marvel characters re-imagined in an alternate universe for one year. The Thor title reverted to Journey into Mystery with issue #503 (Nov. 1996), and ran four different, sequential features ("The Lost Gods"; "Master of Kung Fu"; "Black Widow", and "Hannibal King") before ceasing publication with #521 (June 1998).

When the character was returned to the mainstream Marvel Universe, Thor was relaunched with Thor vol. 2, #1 (July 1998). As of issue #36, the title used dual numbering in a tribute to the original Thor series, and the caption box for said issue became #36 / #538 (June 2001). The title ran until issue #85 / #587, dated December 2004. Dan Jurgens wrote the first 79 issues, with Daniel Berman and Michael Avon Oeming completing the series.

The third volume debuted as Thor #1 (Sept. 2007), initially written by J. Michael Straczynski and penciled by Olivier Coipel. Beginning with what would have been vol. 3, #13 (Jan. 2009), the third volume reverted to issue #600, reflecting the total number of published issues from all three volumes. Kieron Gillen took over from Straczynski in Thor #604 with artists Billy Tan, Richard Elson and Dougie Braithwaite, with his final storyline finishing in issue #614. Matt Fraction took over the series with issue #615, after having been announced as starting in Thor #610 and #611.

In April 2011, Thor once again reverted to its original title of Journey into Mystery with issue #622, reuniting writer Gillen and artist Braithwaite in a series of stories starring Thor's adopted brother, Loki.

In October 2014, a fourth volume of Thor by Jason Aaron and artist Russell Dauterman debuted that featured a female character (later revealed to be Jane Foster) in the role of Thor after the classic hero is no longer able to wield Mjolnir. Aaron stated that "this is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is Thor. This is the Thor of the Marvel Universe. But it's unlike any Thor we've ever seen before." The following October, Aaron and Dauterman signed an exclusive agreement with Marvel to continue their work together in a second volume of The Mighty Thor, also starring Foster.

In January 2020, Thor volume #6 debuted, written by Donny Cates. This story follows Thor, as he becomes the new king of Asgard and tries to fulfill his duties as a king while fighting his destiny in an attempt to save the multiverse from an unknown threat. After Cates had to depart Thor due to suffering a car accident in early 2023, Torunn Grønbekk was brought on to write the remaining issues of the series.

title: Thor (comic book)


text:
Cub Scout

Cub Scouts, Cubs or Wolf Cubs are programmes associated with Scouting for young children usually between 8 and 12, depending on the organisation to which they belong. A participant in the programme is called a Cub. A group of Cubs is called a "Pack".

The Wolf Cub program was originated by The Boy Scouts Association in the United Kingdom in 1916 to provide a programme for boys who were too young to be Boy Scouts. It was adopted by many other Scouting organisations. Many Scouting organisations, including The Scout Association, no longer use the Wolf Cub programme and have replaced it with other programmes but have retained the name Cubs. Others, including Traditional Scouting organisations, maintain the original Wolf Cubs programme.

Originally Cubs programmes were open only to boys, while young girls could join the Brownies. Some Cub organisations are open to both girls and boys, although not necessarily in the same unit. A few organisations also operate a Sea Cub version of Cubs.

Foundation
The Wolf Cub Foudation was started by The Scout Association in 1916, nine years after the idea of the Boy Scouts was conceived, to cater to the many younger boys who were too young to be Boy Scouts. During these first years, many troops had either allowed younger boys to join or had set up an unofficial junior or cadet Scout troops. In 1916, articles in the Headquarters Gazette (a then regular journal for leaders) outlined official "Junior Scout" and then "Wolf Cub" schemes. However, Robert Baden-Powell wanted something quite different from a watered-down Boy Scout programme and recognised that too close of an association between the junior programme and the Boy Scouts would detract from both. Baden-Powell wanted a junior scheme with a distinct name, uniform and other identity and programme.

In 1916, Baden-Powell published his outlines for such a scheme, it was to be called Wolf Cubs. Baden-Powell asked his friend Rudyard Kipling for the use of his Jungle Book history and universe as a motivational frame for the Wolf Cub scheme. The scheme was given a publicity launch at The Boy Scouts Association's Imperial Headquarters in Buckingham Palace Road, Westminster, on Saturday 24 June 1916. Baden-Powell wrote a new book, The Wolf Cub's Handbook, the first edition of which was published in December 1916. He collaborated with Vera Barclay in devising the Wolf Cub training programme and badges, which were published in the second edition. On 16 December 1916, a public display of the new section was held at Caxton Hall, Westminster, to which Kipling was invited; he was unable to attend but sent Baden-Powell a letter of apology, praising his work with the Scout Movement. Vera Barclay co-founded Wolf Cubs with Baden-Powell in 1916.

From the 1960s, many organisations varied or abandoned the Wolf Cub Jungle Book theme. Some organisations changed the name to Cubs, Cub Scouts or something similar but retained the Jungle Stories and Cub ceremony as tradition—such as the use of Jungle Book names (as described below); and the Grand Howl which signals the start and end of Cub Meetings. Other organisations kept the name but dropped the Jungle Book theme.

Originally, Cub membership was open only to boys while the Brownies were set up as a parallel section for young girls. This remains the situation in some places. Most member organisations of the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM) admitted girls to Cubs while others have separate co-ed sections with a different theme. Most member organisations of the Union Internationale des Guides et Scouts d'Europe (UIGSE) have two single-sex sections both named Wolf Cubs and both in the jungle theme.

Cub Scouting has ideals of spiritual and character growth, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Cub Scouting provides a positive, encouraging peer group, carefully selected leaders who provide good role models and a group setting where values are taught to reinforce positive qualities of character.

Organisation
Cubs are organised in packs, which are sometimes linked to a Scout group, providing a community with all age sections known as a "Scouting family". Adult leaders of Cub packs take the names of The Jungle Book's main characters. In many countries the leader of the Pack is called Akela; subordinate leaders are named Bagheera, Baloo, Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, etc., by how many sub-leaders the pack has. A few very big packs need so many sub-leaders that their names must extend to include Tabaqui and Shere Khan, but that tends to be the cue for the pack to split into two packs. Cubs have a distinctive two-finger salute according to the Jungle theme, in contrast to the three-finger salute of the Boy Scouts. However, in The Scout Association of the United Kingdom (UK) and some of its overseas branches, the two-finger salute was later replaced by the three-finger salute. Historically, Cubs wear a distinctive headdress, which is a tight-fitting green felt cap with green felt visor, yellow pipings, and an emblem at the front — although in some countries this has been replaced by more contemporary headgear or dispensed with entirely.

Just as Scout troops are subdivided into patrols, Cub packs are divided into small teams. Baden-Powell named the team a Six, which refers to the six members in each team. In most countries Sixes are mixed-age groups with the oldest as sixer ("leader"). In the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the teams are called dens, with each den serving either boys or girls in the same school grade.

Youth leaders from more senior sections of Scouting are actively encouraged to assist as Cub leaders. In the UK and in Australia these were originally called Cub Instructors. Within Scouts Australia the term Youth Helper is now formally applied to such persons, whilst in the United Kingdom they are called Young Leaders. In Canada, a Scout who assists in the Cub programme is designated as a Kim. In the United States, the term Den Chief is used.

In many European countries (especially where the Jungle theme still has a strong part in the programme), St. Francis of Assisi is the patron saint of Cubs, because of his relationship with wolves.

Baden-Powell Scouts' Association
The Baden-Powell Scouts' Association in Australia operate a "Wolf Cub" section between its Koalas' programme and Boy Scout. Wolf Cub packs are themed on "The Jungle Book" by Rudyard Kipling, a friend of Baden-Powell. Wolf Cub packs are divided into Sixes, with each six being identified by a coloured triangular patch on the member's arm. Each Six is led by a "Sixer" and a "Seconder", who have their rank indicated by horizontal yellow stripes sewn onto their left arm.

Scouts Australia
In Scouts Australia, the Cub Scout programme is open to all children (girls and boys) ages 8–11. The uniform is a navy blue, button-up or polo-style, short-sleeved shirt with a yellow collar, sleeves and shoulders. Patrols are identified by a coloured band/ring (red, yellow, green, orange, blue, black, white, grey, tan, purple) worn around their scarf, above their woggle. Patrol Leaders wear a second band/ring on the other side of their scarf which is white with two blue stripes. They are supported by their Assistant Patrol Leader, who will step into the leadership role if the Patrol Leader is away, and will help at Unit Councils. They wear a white band/ring with one blue stripe.

Together, the Patrol Leaders and Assistant Patrol Leaders from every patrol make up the Unit Council. They take a leading role in planning and running activities.

Austria
In Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs Cub Scouting is the section for children between the ages of 7 to 10. The jungle theme is the symbolic framework. The first pack was started in the autumn of 1920 in Vienna. In the beginning, there were different symbolic frameworks: red Indians (taken from "Kibbo Kift" written by John Hargrave) and Robinson Crusoe. In the 1930s the Jungle theme was introduced.

Canada
In 1916, the Cub Scout programme was introduced as part of Scouts Canada with a programme similar to that of the UK. Cub Scouting is open to youth of both sexes, ages 8 to 10 inclusive. Sixes wear a coloured triangular patch, rather than a distinctive woggle. (If brown, for example, the six is known as Brown Six.) The Cub motto is "Do Your Best" and the promise, the vow recited in opening ceremonies is: "I promise to do my best, to do my duty to God and the King, to keep the law of the Wolfcub pack, and do a good turn every day."

Hong Kong
The tradition of Cub Scouting in Hong Kong was inherited from the British. It is the largest section of the Scout Movement in Hong Kong. A Pack is headed by a Cub Scout Leader (團長), with several Assistant Cub Scout Leaders (副團長) and Instructors (教練員). The division within a Pack is called a Six (小隊). Each Six has a Sixer (隊長) and a Seconder (隊副 or 副隊長). Each Six is distinguished by a colour and is named after it. Each member of the Six wears a woggle with the colour of his Six. The Promise and Law for the Cub Scouts are simplified from those for Scouts. Traditionally, the logo of the Wolf Cub denotes the Cub Scouts, but it is rarely used.

Ireland
In Ireland, the section is known as both Cub Scouts and Macaoimh, depending on the tradition from which the particular Scout troop comes.

Netherlands
The jungle theme is the symbolic framework of the Welpen (Cubs). Welpen wear green uniforms. Among a horde ("pack") of Cub Scouts, the cubs are divided into nesten ("nests"). Each nest has a Gids (Guide) and a Helper. Like all sections, Welpen is open to both boys and girls, but Scout Groups can have single-sex sections. Starting in 2010, the symbolic framework of the Welpen will be based on a modified version of the Jungle Book with two main characters: the boy Mowgli and the girl Shanti. The new Welpen section will gradually replace the four sections in the age group Scouting Nederland had before Welpen, Kabouters (Brownies), Dolfijnen ("Dolphins") and Esta's. Dolfijnen has a water-based symbolic framework, and Esta's has a specially developed co-ed symbolic framework. The new Welpen contains elements from all four previous sections.

New Zealand
In New Zealand, the Cubs section is known as Cub Scouts, and largely follows the format of the United Kingdom, though it is administered under the main Scouts New Zealand association. The Cub section is for children aged 8 to 11 years. They meet weekly at their Scout Hall and take part in all sorts of activities. There are approximately 410 scout groups in New Zealand, all of which have a cub section, typically along with other sections for younger kids (Keas) and older members (Scouts, Venturers and Rovers). Scouts New Zealand Sections.

Poland
In the Polish Scouting and Guiding Association, the Cub Scouts and Brownies' section is called "zuchy" and is open to children ages 6–10. Members are organised into cub packs where they learn to integrate into a collective of friends. Any kind of learning is accomplished by playing games. They can earn three Cub Scout Stars "Gwiazdki zuchowe" and a lot of individual and group merit badges.

Singapore
In Singapore, the junior section of the Scouting movement was known as the Cadet Scouts, until 2005 when it was renamed to Cub Scouts in line with international practice.

Cub Scout's age group is from 7–12, following the Jungle Book Theme. Each Cub Scout Pack is led by a Cub Scout Leader assisted by Asst. Cub Scout Leaders. Packs are subdivided into small groups of six cubs, called Sixes. Sixes are led by the Sixer and the Asst. Sixer. Most Cub Scout Packs in Singapore are affiliated with schools and the teachers are the Cub Scout Leaders and Asst. Cub Scout Leaders. Some parents are also involved and actively serve as Volunteer Adult Leaders (VAL).

The highest Award for a Cub Scout is the Akela Award. It is awarded to the Cub Scouts who complete the badge scheme and assessment criteria.

Baden-Powell Scouts' Association
The Baden-Powell Scouts' Association operate a "Wolf Cub" section between Beavers and Scouts. Wolf Cub packs are themed on "The Jungle Book" by Rudyard Kipling, a friend of Baden-Powell. Wolf Cub packs are divided into Sixes, with each six being identified by a coloured triangular patch on the member's arm. Each Six is led by a "Sixer" and a "Seconder", who have their rank indicated by horizontal yellow stripes sewn onto their left arm.

British Boy Scouts
The British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association allows the use of the Wolf Cubs programme as an alternative to its Junior Scout section.

The Scout Association
In the Scout Association, Sixes are led by a "Sixer" and have a "Seconder" (or "Second") as a backup. The Sixer wears two stripes on his/her uniform and the Seconder one stripe. When a Cub Scout is made a Sixer, the Second's badge (with one stripe) should be removed and replaced with the Sixer's badge. The members of a six are distinguished by the colour of the woggle they wear on their Group neckerchief (known elsewhere as a Group scarf).

The three points of the fleur-de-lys, Scout salute and Scout sign remind the Cub Scout of the three points of the Cub Scout's Promise: "Duty to God and King, Helpfulness to other people, and Obedience to the Cub Scout Law."

Boy Scouts of America
Cub Scouting is a division of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). Starting in 1918, several experiments operated until 1930, when the first official Cub Scout packs were registered. Today, it is a family programme for children in kindergarten through fifth grade, with each den admitting boys, girls or coed through 4th grade and single gender for 5th grade. Parents, leaders, and organizations work together to achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting. Families are a core part of Cub Scouts and are included in many activities. Currently, Cub Scouting is the largest of the BSA's three membership divisions.

Baden-Powell Service Association
In the Baden-Powell Service Association, the corresponding section for this age group is called Timberwolves. As with the Scout Association, each pack is divided into Sixes led by a "Sixer" with a "Seconder" assisting. The Pack retains Baden-Powell's original Jungle Book theme, with its leader called Akela and assistant leaders using names like Raksha, Bagheera, or Baloo.

title: Cub Scout


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User:Drxenocide

Bio/CV
I went to the Bronx high school of science, was Physics major at the University of Maryland, College Park, and work for the US Patent and Trademark Office.

Subjects

 * Photonic crystals and Optical computing
 * Vehicle Control Systems
 * Intellectual Property and Patent Law
 * GPS
 * Optical amplifiers
 * Physics

What I like to do on Wikipedia

 * Wikify
 * [| Break up leads]

Pages I've contributed to

 * Triple Entente of 1908
 * University of Maryland, College Park
 * Boson
 * Sajeev John
 * Eli Yablonovitch
 * Photonic crystal
 * Emmy Noether
 * Rabbit-skin glue
 * Photonics
 * Equilibrium temperature

title: User:Drxenocide


text:
Talk:Shoe fetishism

Shoeplay redirects here - yet no mention of it
Why does shoeplay redirect here? This article doesn't mention shoeplay (which is not always sexual) atall. As I recall there was a shoeplay article (and quite a good one as well), but evidently a redirect happened - and as far as I can see without any discussion prior to the redirect http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shoeplay&action=history (It appears to have been deleted without anyone attempting to add in sources - lack of edits up to redirection)And as far as I can tell there was no community discussion on the redirect - if there was and someone could point me to the archive of it i'd be grateful. 81.79.73.71 20:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Shoeplay was redirected here for being unsourced, and for being original research. Those are good reasons. Anyone wanting to add information about "non-sexual" shoeplay will need to cite a reference. / edg ☺ ★ 21:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The subject "Talk: Shoe fetishism/archive 1" this section holds further extensive conversations and more complete discussions and research on this topic that go much further than what is documented here. The reference source and public positing of my research data is at shoefetish-bootfetish.com written and I grant permissions for use allowed for posting on Wiki sites by Harold Elliott B. the researcher and gatherer of this data. Confirmation contact info can be found at that web site. — Preceding srotoys] comment added by [[User:Srotoys|Srotoys (talk • contribs) 17:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Block Shoe fetishism Fritella (talk) 13:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTCENSORED. ~ RobTalk 13:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Pointe?
I think the article should also mention "pointe fetishism" (related to ballet fetishism, but focused on pointe shoes) --J.P.B., August 15, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.104.58.174 (talk) 12:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Altocalciphilia?
"Altocalciphilia" redirects here, without being mentioned. Supposedly it means high heel fetish, though it might be a made-up word. --Rev L. Snowfox (talk) 15:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Homosexual shoe fetishism missing?
Shoe fetishism is also very common in at least male homosexual community, from my personal experience, but this page seems exclusively heterosexual. Especially mentioning only "women's shoes" seems a bit problematic. Anyone who has further knowledge on homosexual fetishism should help add further information. 11:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Prevalence section
Much of it is completely unsourced. Thinking a rewrite with better sourcing. Thoughts? Surv1v4l1st ╠Talk║Contribs╣ 04:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shoe fetishism


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Great Officers of State

Government in medieval monarchies generally comprised the king's companions, later becoming the royal household, from which the officers of state arose, initially having household and government duties. Later some of these officers became two: one serving state and one serving household. They were superseded by new officers, or were absorbed by existing officers. Many of the officers became hereditary and thus removed from practical operation of either the state or the household.

Especially in the Norman kingdoms these offices will have common characteristics. In the United Kingdom, the Great Officers of State are traditional ministers of The Crown who either inherit their positions or are appointed to exercise certain largely ceremonial functions or to operate as members of the government. Separate Great Officers of State exist for England and for Scotland, as well as formerly for Ireland. It was the same in the Kingdoms of Sicily and Naples. Many of the Great Officers became largely ceremonial because historically they were so influential that their powers had to be resumed by the Crown or dissipated.

Holy Roman Empire
Princes elector held a "High Office of the Empire" (Reichserzämter) analogous to a modern Cabinet office and were members of the ceremonial Imperial Household. The three spiritual electors were Arch-Chancellors (Erzkanzler, Archicancellarius): the Archbishop of Mainz was Arch-Chancellor of Germany, the Archbishop of Cologne was Arch-Chancellor of Italy, and the Archbishop of Trier was Arch-Chancellor of Burgundy. The six remaining were secular electors, who were granted augmentations to their arms reflecting their position in the Household. These augments were displayed either as an inset badge, as in the case of the Arch Steward, Treasurer, and Chamberlain—or dexter, as in the case of the Arch Marshal and Arch Bannerbearer. Or, as in the case of the Arch Cupbearer, the augment was integrated into the escutcheon, held in the royal Bohemian lion's right paw.

Hungary
In the Kingdom of Hungary the Great Officers of State were non-hereditary court officials originally appointed by the king, later some of them were elected by the Diet. They were also called the barons of the kingdom (országbárók, országnagyok) and lords banneret because they were obliged to lead their own Banderium (military unit) under their own banner in times of war. The offices gradually got separated from the role they originally fulfilled and their deputies took over the responsibilities.

Poland
The following dignitaries were permanent members of the council in the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland:

 * Great Chancellor of the Crown
 * Great Marshal of the Crown
 * Great Treasurer of the Crown

Scotland
As of 2023, the Scottish Great Officers of State are as follows:

History
In the Kingdom of Sicily, which existed from 1130 to 1816, the Great Officers were officials of the Crown who inherited an office or were appointed to perform some mainly ceremonial functions or to act as members of the government. In particular, it was a Norman king, Roger II, who once he became King of Sicily and conquered the territories of Southern Italy was concerned with organizing the Kingdom politically. For this reason, in 1140, King Roger convened a Parliament in Palermo where the seven most important offices of the Kingdom of Sicily were established, to which the title of archons was given.

The system has notable similarities with the English one, being both derived from Norman rulers, in which four of them had a certain correspondence with the officers of the court of the Franks, where there was a senescalk, a marchäl, a kämmerer, a kanzlèr; later reverted with the Great Officers of the Kingdom of France.

With the pragmatic of November 6, 1569, on the reforms of the Courts, three Great Offices of the Kingdom are made the prerogative of the judiciary: the Great Chancellor by President of the Tribunal of the Sacred Royal Conscience; the Great Justiciar, whose functions had already been absorbed by President of the Tribunal of the Royal grand Court; and the Great Chamberlain by the President of the Tribunal of Royal Patrimony.

Officers of State
The Great Officers of State of the former Kingdom of Sicily, consisting of Sicily and Malta, were:

title: Great Officers of State


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Oshin of Korikos

Oshin of Korikos (or Corycos) (died 1329) served as regent of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia from 1320 to 1329. He was the son of the historian Hayton of Korikos. He became regent for Leo IV on the death of King Oshin in 1320, whom he was rumoured to have poisoned. Oshin was also probably responsible for the deaths of King Oshin's sister Princess Isabella of Armenia and two of her sons, in order to remove rival claimants.

Oshin married twice:

 * First, Margaret d'Ibelin, who bore him one daughter, Alice, who married King Leo IV of Armenia.
 * Second, King Oshin's widow, Jeanne of Anjou. Oshin of Korikos and Jeanne had a daughter, Marie, who consecutively married two Armenian Kings of Cilicia, Constantine V and Constantine VI.

Oshin and his daughter Alice (Leo's wife) were assassinated in 1329 at the behest of Leo IV.

title: Oshin of Korikos


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Pana Merchant

Pana Pappas Merchant (born April 2, 1943) was a Liberal Senator from the Canadian province of Saskatchewan. She held the position since her appointment to the Senate by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien in 2002 until her retirement in 2017.

On January 29, 2014, Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau announced all Liberal Senators, including Merchant, were removed from the Liberal caucus, and would continue sitting as Independents. The Senators refer to themselves as the Senate Liberal Caucus even though they are no longer members of the parliamentary Liberal caucus.

Pana Merchant was a longtime member of the Board of Directors of The Parliamentary Network, a founding and long term member of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, and a longtime member of the World Hellenic Inter-Parliamentary Association.

Senator Pana announced her resignation from the Senate on March 31, 2017, approximately a year ahead of her mandatory retirement date.

title: Pana Merchant


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Fat Butt and Pancake Head

"Fat Butt and Pancake Head" (also known as "Jennifer-Lopez-Mania") is the fifth episode of the seventh season and the 101st overall episode of the Comedy Central series South Park. It was originally broadcast on April 16, 2003.

In the episode, Jennifer Lopez is enraged to learn that a new Latina singer also named Jennifer Lopez (but in actuality is just Cartman's hand) has stolen her record deal and her boyfriend Ben Affleck.

Plot
South Park Elementary holds a cultural diversity event in which Kyle Broflovski gives a report on the role of Latinos in American technology. A board of Latino community leaders (who are the judges) seem pleased with Kyle's report. Eric Cartman goes on stage to report on the effect of Latino culture on the arts in America. He says he has a special guest, Jennifer Lopez. However, it turns out to merely be a ventriloquist act with Cartman's hand acting as the head of "Ms. Lopez" (reminiscent of Señor Wences) who is a Hispanic stereotype in every way. Despite this offensive display, the judges inexplicably give him first place for having the best report, and he wins a $20 gift certificate at the mall. This angers Kyle, as he thinks Cartman's speech is racist and immature, and while Kyle had spent weeks laboring over his speech, it is implied that Cartman spent very little time in preparation.

Cartman further angers Kyle by insisting that "Ms. Lopez" has a mind of her own. When the children go to the mall, Cartman—at the apparent behest of "Ms. Lopez"—pays ten dollars to record a music video at a recording store. The video gets sent to the record company, proving a success and propelling "Ms. Lopez" to stardom. However, the executives agree that "Ms. Lopez" has too many similarities to the actual Jennifer Lopez and decide to replace the more difficult human performer with the puppet because they cannot have two Jennifer Lopezes.

When the actual Jennifer Lopez is directly told by the executives in a meeting that "we're firing you", she is infuriated, especially when she learns that her job has been replaced by a literal puppet. Jennifer Lopez and her husband-to-be, Ben Affleck, show up at South Park Elementary in a limousine. Lopez starts to beat up Cartman's hand until he pleads that he will stop his ventriloquist act. As the two celebrities leave, Affleck catches sight of "Ms. Lopez" and falls in love with her. The tension between Cartman and the hand-puppet escalates as "Ms. Lopez" forces him to do things her way. As the episode progresses, the relationship between Cartman and "Miss Lopez" begins to grow more surreal, with Cartman and "Ms. Lopez" arguing (with both their voices being heard simultaneously) and "Ms. Lopez" acting independently while Cartman is asleep.

Affleck invites "Ms. Lopez" for a ride in his car. Cartman reluctantly agrees. Later "Ms. Lopez" lets Ben make out with her, then she performs oral sex on him. Cartman looks down, sees what "Ms. Lopez" (his hand) is doing, and, infuriated, departs the car quickly. The next morning Cartman awakes to find in his bed a naked Affleck, with "Ms. Lopez" announcing that they had made love all night and are getting married.

The news of the wedding again angers the actual Jennifer Lopez as she attempts to kill "Ms. Lopez". Cartman runs. On a bridge, Jennifer Lopez, the police, Ben Affleck, the people from the recording company, Kyle, Kenny and Stan catch up with Cartman and "Ms. Lopez". Everyone (except the boys) starts to argue about "Ms. Lopez". "Ms. Lopez" screams for everyone to be quiet. Cartman removes her hair and "Ms. Lopez", in a male voice, makes the confession that her real name is Mitch Conner, a con man who has been moving around from town to town. Conner apologizes to Ben for playing with his heart and states that he will die because he has recently consumed a cyanide pill. Conner then "dies" (Cartman makes it look like he "flutters away" into the wind), and everyone goes away except for the boys.

Kyle then asks Cartman to explain Mitch Conner. Cartman says, "Look, I don't care what you guys believe. But with all the crazy stuff that goes on in this town, isn't it possible, just possible, that something I don't understand happened here?" When Kyle admits that it's possible, Cartman starts singing, "Ha ha ha ha haa haa! I got you, kinda! I got you, kinda!", much to Kyle's dismay. The episode ends with Jennifer Lopez working at a La Taco restaurant while on probation. She complains she had six platinum records and starred in five Hollywood movies. The Mexican worker next to her responds, "Yeah, me too."

Legacy

 * Cartman's ventriloquist act of Mitch Conner/Jennifer Lopez returned in the season 14 episodes "200" and "201". It also returned in the video game South Park: The Fractured but Whole, with both Cartman and later Kyle in control of Mitch Connor.  It is revealed here that Cartman is, in fact, in total control of Mitch.
 * In the commentary, Trey Parker has stated that this episode has his favorite ending because it is so surreal and "you don't even know if Cartman is lying or not".
 * In South Park’s season 7 commentary, Parker recalls that five months after the episode aired, he "heard from some friends that were on a set of a Jennifer Lopez movie she was doing and they said that when she would walk by, some of the lower people like the PAs would say, 'Oooh tacos, I love tacos…'. And that she got so mad and had to fire people… But she kept hearing it in the distance".

title: Fat Butt and Pancake Head


text: User talk:152.163.252.232

title: User talk:152.163.252.232


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Naranjo

Naranjo (Wak Kab'nal in Mayan) is a Pre-Columbian Maya city in the Petén Basin region of Guatemala. It was occupied from about 500 BC to 950 AD, with its height in the Late Classic Period. The site is part of Yaxha-Nakum-Naranjo National Park. The city lies along the Mopan and Holmul rivers, and is about 50 km east of the site of Tikal. Naranjo has been the victim of severe looting. The site is known for its polychrome ceramic style.

"Naranjo" in Spanish means "Orange Tree", which is a Spanish translation of the Mayan name Wak Kab'nal. The emblem glyph of the Naranjo is transliterated as Sa'aal “the place where (maize) gruel abounds.” The Naranjo dynastic rulers are said to be the "Holy Lords of Sa'aal."

Layout of site
The area of Naranjo covers at least 8 km2 with the urban center covering about 2.25 km2. There are currently 389 recorded buildings in the central area and over 900 around the center.

The epicenter consists of six triadic complexes, two ballcourts, two palace compounds, and one E-group. C-9 is the largest triadic complex in the city. Structure C-9 is the complexes main pyramid, and the Largest at the site. Because it occupies the top of a natural hill with a cave located inside, it is a perfect place to be categorized as a ‘sacred mountain’.

A hieroglyphic stairway, that is believed to have been taken from Caracol, was added to structure B-18 sometime in the seventh century AD.

Archaeological preservation work
The site was first mapped and photographed by Teoberto Maler in 1905, who was sent by The Peabody Museum of Harvard University. In 1908 Maler excavated the hieroglyphic stairway from structure B-18, parts of which are now housed in the British Museum in London. In the 1910s, further investigations of the site were made by Sylvanus G. Morley and Oliver Ricketson.

Investigations of the site of Xunantunich suggests that it was part of Naranjo's realm.

By the 1920s, many of the ancient sculptures had already disappeared. The problem worsened in the 1960s, when many of the site's large sculptures were smashed into fragments by looters in order to sneak them out of the country.

In 1972-1973, 19 stela were taken from Naranjo by the Department of Prehispanic Monuments of the IDAEH to be protected from looters.

From 1997 to 2001 the site was controlled by looters. From 2002 to 2004, a project was undertaken to evaluate the extent of the looting which found about 270 tunnels and trenches. Archaeologist Vilma Fialko has been instrumental in this project.

A conservation project by the Ministry of Culture and Sport began in 2002. In 2006 Naranjo was added to the World Monuments Watch.

In 2013, a building from about 600 AD was found at nearby Holmul with a giant stucco frieze showing a central ruler and two flanking ones in repose. The frieze is very well preserved. Below it runs a long inscription from which it appears that the construction was commissioned by Aj Wosal of Naranjo. At the time, Naranjo was subordinated to the Kaanul dynasty of Dzibanche and Calakmul.

History
The history of Naranjo includes several major disturbances in the dynastic rule when allegiances and identities of local kings were subject to change. Texts at the site record a mythical founding of the city by its patron god.

Not much is known about the site before the ruler Ah Wosaaj Chan K'inich who came to power in 546 AD. The sites of La Sufricaya and Holmul to the north of Naranjo were involved in the establishment of the new political order in Peten after the arrival of Sihyaj K’ahk' in AD 378. It is plausible to assume that Naranjo might also be under the sway of Sihyaj K'ahk's hegemony and later Tikal rulers. If there were any monuments from that time, they were destroyed and/or cached.

In 546 AD Naranjo came under the control of Calakmul whose ruler Tuun Kab Hix appointed Ah Wosaaj Chan K'inich. This was a deliberate move by Calakmul to take allies away from Tikal. Ah Wosaaj was involved in infrastructure improvements to the city such as the paving of a road in July 559, according to Altar 2.

In 626 two attacks were made on Naranjo by Caracol. Naranjo was then retaken by Calakmul in 631. During the administration of K'ahk' Xiiw Chan Chaahk, Naranjo defeated Caracol in a "star war" sending Caracol into a hiatus period, but by 680 Caracol had apparently recovered and eliminated K'ahk' Xiiw.

In 682 AD, Calakmul sent Lady Six Sky, possibly Ix Wak Chan Jalam Lem in ancient Maya, to reestablish the Naranjo dynasty. Her arrival is written on Stela 24 found in front of Structure C-7. Lady Six Sky was the daughter of the Dos Pilas ruler B'ahlaj Chan K'awiil. While never officially made a ruler, Lady Six Sky performed as a ruler, possibly as regent for her son K'ahk' Tiliw Chan Chaahk who acceded in 693 AD at the age of five. This relationship is made explicit on Naranjo Stela 46. Between 693 and 698 AD Naranjo carried out a series of at least eight attacks, likely under the auspices of Lady Six Sky, defeating Tikal in 695 AD and Ucanal in 698 AD. K'ak' Tiliw Chan Chaak began another series of attacks in 706 AD including the defeat of Yaxha in 710 AD. Lady Six Sky died in 741 AD. She is depicted on stelae including 3, 18, 24, 29, and 31.

Naranjo was defeated by Tikal in 744 AD and the ruler, Yax Mayuy Chan Chaahk, was taken captive and likely sacrificed during Tikal's victory celebrations. However, this wasn't the end of the city's written history. Later kings include Itzamnaaj? K'awiil, who fought against Yaxha and, in 790, repaved the road established by Ah Wosaaj, according to Altar 2.

Naranjo's final abandonment may have been the result of political turmoil and a severe drought dated to 810 AD.

References and sources

 * References

 * Sources

title: Naranjo