text:
Talk:Epaphus

Comments
This sounds awfully factual; isn't this at least somewhat mythical ? -- ll

 * Yes, Zeus and the other figures in the story are quite well-known for being mythical :) Pakaran 03:33, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I was far too elliptical :) I meant, whereas I can clearly see that the first sentence about being the son of Zeus is mythical, I'm not sure if the subsequent parts are entirely mythical, or partly historical, or of unknown character.

 * According to Memphis, Egypt, the city was founded in 3100 BC by Menes of Thini. It's not impossible/unlikely that this story is a legend-ized version of history, though. Tuf-Kat 03:46, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)

Is the line after Libya really necessary? Its doesnt seem to be well worded or pertinent- maybe someone with a better grasp of mythology can help.

Memphis and Cassiopeia
"Epaphus is regarded in the myths as the founder of Memphis, Egypt. With his wife, Memphis (or according to others, Cassiopeia)". I read the article on Libya (mythology) and it says that for the Roman mythology, Cassiopeia was the wife of Epaphus. Is this the case only in Roman mythology or these "others" mentioned above are Greek mythology sources?

ICE77 (talk) 02:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Epaphus


text:
Kyushu Shinkansen

The Kyushu Shinkansen (九州新幹線) is a Japanese Shinkansen high-speed railway network. It is an extension of the San'yō Shinkansen from Honshu connecting the city of Fukuoka (Hakata Station) in the north of Japan's Kyushu Island to the city of Kagoshima (Kagoshima-Chuo Station) in the south. The line runs parallel to the existing Kagoshima Main Line and is operated by Kyushu Railway Company (JR Kyushu).

The southernmost 127 km section of the track was constructed first, opening on 13 March 2004. The dual-track offered a significant improvement in transit time over the equivalent single-track section of the Kagoshima Main Line, despite the need for passengers to change to a Relay Tsubame narrow gauge train at Shin-Yatsushiro, and the remainder of the journey to Hakata Station. The northernmost 130 km section opened on 12 March 2011, enabling through-services to Shin-Osaka (and with an interchange, to Tokyo). However, opening ceremonies were cancelled due to the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami.

The Nishi Kyushu Shinkansen route to Nagasaki (from Takeo-Onsen to Nagasaki) opened on 23 September 2022. A cross-platform interchange to a relay service called 'Relay Kamome' at Takeo-Onsen station offers a connection to Hakata.

Kagoshima Route
Construction of the Kagoshima Route (鹿児島ルート) began in 1991, and the first segment between Kagoshima and Shin-Yatsushiro opened on 13 March 2004. This initial section cut travel times between the two cities from 2 hours and 10 minutes to 35 minutes and reduced the time between Hakata and Kagoshima from 4 hours to 2 hours. When the entire line was completed, the travel time from Hakata to Kagoshima was further reduced to about an hour and 20 minutes. As of 2012, the maximum line speed is 260 km/h between Hakata and Kagoshima. Like all Shinkansen lines, the Kyushu Shinkansen is standard gauge.

The line's Sakura and Mizuho services often operate through to Shin-Ōsaka Station via the San'yō Shinkansen. All-stop trains are named Tsubame ("Swallow"), the name of the former Hakata-Kagoshima limited express service, and are solely truncated to the Kyushu Shinkansen.

In September 2011, six months after the line's completion, JR Kyushu reported a year-over-year increase in ridership of 64% to the southern part of Kyushu (between Kumamoto and Kagoshima), easily surpassing the 40% increase projected by the company. By the first anniversary, ridership had increased, mainly from tourists from Kansai and Chugoku. In northern Kyushu, where there is fierce competition with conventional JR rapid service, the private Nishi-Nippon Railroad, and expressway buses, Shinkansen ridership increased by only 38% (compared to the now-discontinued conventional express Relay Tsubame), falling short of estimates.

Nishi Kyushu (Nagasaki) route
A Shinkansen line from Fukuoka to Nagasaki, initially known as the Nagasaki Shinkansen (長崎新幹線), was laid out in the 1973 Basic Plan. Renamed as the Nagasaki Route (長崎ルート), then changed to the Nishi Kyushu Route (西九州ルート) in 1995, the segment between Takeo-Onsen and Nagasaki, Nishi Kyushu Shinkansen, opened for service on 23 September 2022.

Other planned routes
According to the Shinkansen Basic Plan laid out in 1973, two other routes would accompany the Kagoshima and West Kyushu (Nagasaki) routes: the East Kyushu Shinkansen, from Hakata to Kagoshima-Chūō via Ōita and Miyazaki, paralleling the Nippō Main Line; and the Trans-Kyushu Shinkansen, linking Kumamoto and Ōita, and connecting with the also-planned Shikoku Shinkansen to Matsuyama, Takamatsu and Osaka. These plans have been shelved indefinitely and are unlikely to be reconsidered until the Shinkansen lines that are already under construction are completed.

Station list

 * Tsubame trains stop at all stations. For Mizuho and Sakura, all trains stop at stations marked "●", while some trains stop at those marked "▲". All trains stop at Hakata, Kumamoto and Kagoshima-Chūō.

Legend:

Kagoshima route
Services not leaving the Kyushu Shinkansen are operated by 6-car 800 Series trains, with a maximum speed of 260 km/h. The trains were developed by Hitachi, and based on the 700 series trains already in service on the Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen line.

8-car N700-7000 and N700-8000 series trains are used on through-running services between Shin-Osaka and Kagoshima-Chūō. The first set (S1) was delivered to Hakata Depot in October 2008.

Three services operate on the line, in order of speed: Mizuho, Sakura, and Tsubame. The Mizuho makes two return trips between Shin-Osaka and Kagoshima-Chūō during the morning hours, and two return trips during the evening, with an end-to-end journey time of 3 hours 45 minutes. Sakura services run once per hour throughout the day between Shin-Osaka and Kagoshima-Chūō making additional stops, with an end-to-end travel time of 4 hours 10 minutes. There are also one to two Sakura services every hour between Hakata and either Kumamoto or Kagoshima-Chūō. Tsubame trains operate the all-stations shuttle service between Hakata and Kumamoto once to twice per hour, with some services operating to/from Kagoshima-Chūō. Mizuho trains cannot be used by foreign passengers traveling with a Japan Rail Pass.

Nishi Kyushu route
Services are operated by 6-car N700S series trains with a service type named Kamome.

2016 Kumamoto earthquakes
On the evening of 14 April 2016, the entire length of the Kagoshima Route was shut down after the first of two powerful earthquakes struck Kumamoto prefecture. There was extensive damage along the route, including cracks in elevated support structures at 25 locations and collapsed sound insulation walls in nearly 80 locations.

An 800 series train was derailed near Kumamoto Station after the first tremor, while the train was deadheading. On 18 April, JR Kyushu began attempts to return the derailed train to the tracks.

On 27 April 2016, the line reopened with reduced speed and service frequency.

2021 Attempted arson
On the morning of 8 November 2021, a 69-year old man from Fukuoka attempted to set a Sakura Shinkansen service on fire. The train, Sakura #401, was travelling between Kumamoto and Shin-Yatsuhiro stations at the time of the attempted arson. No casualties were reported. According to the perpetrator, the motive of the incident was to replicate the October 2021 Tokyo attack.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kyushu Shinkansen


text:
User talk:Dougg

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia.

You might find these links helpful in creating new pages or helping with the above tasks: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too.

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

UtherSRG 03:32, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

PS. You can sign your name using three tildes, like. If you use four, you can add a datestamp too.

Quongdong
Hey dude, no worries about changing the spelling, I have a suspicion that it may be an Aboriginal word and as such the spelling probably varies. If you google for Quongdong you will find entries with this spelling though granted not that many. Perhaps an alternative spelling option could be a go. I did eat some flesh and the nut on a bushtucker trip but couldn't find out much about them since - maybe because of the way I was spelling it?. Cheers. SeanMack 07:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Papua
Hi. Sorry if I came across as hostile with the Papua page. My reasoning is that while there are certainly people who consider using "Papua" in this way to be incorrect, there are also those who would think otherwise. Regardless of which side is right, Wikipedia's NPOV policy means that we shouldn't take sides — it isn't our role to be arbiters of what's "correct" or not, particularly since the large numbers of Wikipedians means that we often can't agree ourselves. If we take sides, the page will always be flipping backwards and forwards as people argue over it — much better to have a neutral statement which sticks to the agreed facts. By removing the "(incorrectly)" comment, I believe the NPOV policy is upheld — we are not commenting one way or the other on whether the usage is correct or not, and people can make up their own minds. (If you think it appropriate to discuss the disputed use in detail, that would be fine — add a note that "some people consider this incorrect, arguing that...", or suchlike. That would make sure people knew the use is disputed, without breaking the policy about taking sides.) Again, sorry if I seemed hostile — I should have explained my reasoning in the edit summary. -- Vardion 09:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi, thanks for the reply. It's true that a NPOV is important, but I don't see how the names of islands are a matter to be based on opinions. It is a universally agreed fact that the large island north of Australia which is divided between Indonesia and Papua New Guinea is called 'New Guinea' and has been for several centuries. I admit that there have been a number of cases of people on Wikipedia insisting that it is also known as Papua, but no-one has been able to give a source or reference to show that this is the case (if you have one I'd be interested to know about it). From where this usage occurs I suspect that it results from a sympathy with the OPM and their preference for the western half of New Guinea to be called 'Papua Barat', or 'West Papua'. I've checked with a number of authorities both in Australia and in PNG on this and none of them had ever heard of the island being called 'Papua'. It is incorrect to call it 'Papua', just as it would be incorrect to call Australia 'New Holland'. (Oh, and no hostility felt.) Cheers, Dougg 10:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hey fellas! Sorry to burts into your Papua nomenklature chat like this, but I just couldn't help it. I agree that the main article of the island should stay put where it is, namely under New Guinea, which is it's name in the English language. Perhaps Papua is more of a patriotic/romantic/poetic name, similar to America, Britain, Aotearoa or Kanaky. These are not official nor entirely neutral names in common usage for any state or area, but are names filled with emotion and may even convey a certain ethno-political stance or affiliation. Perhaps these alternative names can be mentioned in parentheses at the beginning of the proper article, with a short explanation of the subtle difference in usage? --Big Adamsky 15:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi. While I suspect that it is universally agreed that the island is called "New Guinea", there are still people who think it can also be called Papua. Examples of the use of "Papua" to refer to the island can be found in this Oxfam page, this article on the population of Indonesia, this Macromedia Flash display from the Guardian newspaper, this Diacritica article, and this (cached) article in the Taipei Times. (In addition, there are the West Papua partisans that you mention — the fact that they have an agenda doesn't mean that their views on the matter don't count). While you may well argue that all these people are incorrect, the examples show that some people see "Papua" as an acceptable and correct name. I'd consider that enough for the NPOV policy to apply — there's a difference in opinion, and Wikipedia shouldn't take sides. Wikipedia isn't the place for supporters of one view or another to thrash out arguments — we're meant to report things, not arbitrate on them. If there isn't consensus (which I believe there isn't, given the examples), it isn't our role to wade in. (For one thing, there's no real way for us to reach a conclusion. Anyone can edit Wikipedia — who gets to decide what's "correct" and what isn't? Based on prior disputes on other topics, it's entirely possible to have two factions each absolutely convinced that they've "proven" their case beyond all doubt — in Wikipedia, proof doesn't actually help your position unless everyone agrees that it's proof, since anyone who doesn't agree can just come along and change things.) As I say, there's no problem with presenting the arguments — a note that "Papua" isn't used officially, for example, or a note that atlases don't use it. If the case is solid, just presenting the undisputed facts should theoretically be sufficient — the "correct" answer will be self-evident. (I don't have any particular view on the matter, myself.) Perhaps, though, a wider view should be solicited? I'm sure there are placed this could be brought up for other people's attention. -- Vardion 22:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'll accept that you're right, though I still think it's incorrect to refer to the island as 'Papua' and that it's not a matter of opinion, this being the internationally accepted name for the island for centuries. I suspect that 'Papua' might be the name used by Indonesians as most of the links you give are about that side of the island. And I would argue that the authors of those articles simply haven't checked their facts and would more than likely accept that they got the name wrong. Anyway, how about if I change the line on the disambig page to:

'Sometimes used as a name for the island of New Guinea (the official name).'

or...

'Sometimes used as to refer to the island of New Guinea (the official name).'

BTW, thanks for those links, I think I bumped into the author of the Diacritica article when he was in Vanimo so it was interesting to read it. Dougg 00:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi — sorry for not responding sooner. The solution you propose would, as far as I can see, be fine, although it might be nice if we could attribute the "official" bit. Official according to which authority? Is there an recognised international authority which regulates these things, or does each country decide on their own official names for things? I suppose the UNCSGN would be the best bet. Or maybe that's not necessary, if the name is indeed official virtually everywhere. -- Vardion 05:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, my understanding is that 'New Guinea' has been the official name for over 400 years (here's the first known map showing 'Nova Guinea'), and has been universally accepted as such by all authorities, atlases, geographical names bodies etc. Regards regulation, my understanding is that where nations share an island they work together to establish the official name which is then ratified by the UNCSGN, but in all such cases of which I'm aware (e.g. Hispaniola, Borneo, Timor, Cyprus, Ireland...can't think of any others) the island in question has had its name for centuries, so there is no such regulation happening. I really don't think there's any question that the official name of the island is 'New Guinea'. While anyone can call the island by any name they want to, I think that only if some name is being used by a fair number of commentators is it reasonable to put it in Wikipedia. I'm willing to accept that this is the case with 'Papua' used for 'New Guinea'. But I think it's also reasonable (even obligatory) in such cases to highlight the official name. Dougg 23:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

 * All sounds fine to me. -- Vardion 06:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Papua name usage
Well sorry for being another person picking up on this but, it seems against Wiki standards to be adding personal comment on alternate names. For example US, Australia, MSG, and no doubt tens of thousands of other 'unofficial' names are not cited as 'unofficial' or in any other way listed as a 'lesser' name.

So that's the first reason there is no need for any comment about it being 'unofficial', 'improper', 'tainted', 'lesser', or otherwise not fitting some community's preferred usage of a alternate name.

The Second reason is that IF someone started improssing their community's viewpoint on word usage, by what measure could that be limited? Would political groups be entitled to revert each other on a hourly basis, would Geological and Historical groups be battling over place names, would you have Specialist groups opposing the general community? By allowing someone to claim one word usage is politically 'correct' and the other is 'not' is to turn Wikipedia into a political propaganda box instead of being a neutral reporter. 211.30.222.139 01:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

 * To be honest, I'm not that concerned about not having the qualification 'unofficial' retained (although, as you've probably noticed from the previous discussion above on this, I do feel that 'Papua' is simply incorrect as an alternative name for New Guinea). What I find strange is your description of it as 'denigratory'. And now you compound that by equating 'unofficial' with 'improper, tainted, lesser' etc. 'Unofficial' refers to accepted legal status amongst governments and international bodies; the other words you use refer to personal preference. I find this very strange. I do however agree with your third paragraph above (which contradicts your first argument) and in fact that's what I want--for it to be made clear what is and what is not the official name of New Guinea. Dougg 01:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Noongar/Nyungah
Dougg,

I have no basis for saying any spelling is "standard" - and don't believe there is a standard. The first sentence in the article itself states that "Noongar" is the preferred spelling in the south of the state. I was just trying to be consistent - and failing at that I see :) - at the time I had the =Culture= section open for editing to sort out a similar issue related to the spelling of "Wagyl". In hindsight I should have returned to finish the job - which I'll do now.  Notwithstanding my omissions, the Noongar article is spelt as such and "Nyoongar" and "Nyungar" both redirects, so it seems reasonable to be consistent throughout.  Special:Whatlinkshere/Noongar indicates that "Noongar" is the most common useage in Wikipedia. -- Ian ≡ talk 13:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * FWIW, Len Collard states ... There are even variations in the spelling of the word which include Nyungar, Noongar, Nyoongar or Noongah. This variation reflects both regional dialect differences as well as an attempt by regional groups to retain in a modern Australian society a sense of independence and difference within.  Regards -- Ian ≡ talk 13:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I thought you were suggesting that 'Noongar' is the standard. You're correct that there is no one standard, athough I personally would prefer to see 'Nyungar' used in the article as it better reflects the speech of the best living speakers such as Len's father, Fred Collard (actually, 'Nhunga' would be a closer approximation to the speech of speakers from a couple of generations ago, but I don't think anyone would like it.) The main dialect difference was between 'nyunga' and 'nyungara', but I don't think anyone says the latter anymore. Anyway as you say, it's good to be consistent. I might just add something to the language section discussing the various spellings of the word. cheers, Dougg 02:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Dougg, I've taken the liberty (and I hope you don't mind) of moving the discussion and my preference to talk:Noongar to hear what others think. Regards -- Ian ≡ talk 00:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Melanesia
Actually I suspect both 'conflate' and 'distinguish' are wrong, though 'conflate' is also insulting, though I doubt you were aware of the history involved.

The term 'Austronesian' is a super-set originally referring to anything south of the equator, though in recent times referring to anything from Indonesia to Melanesia to Polynesia. Of course the original French definition and maps of Melanesia included the Australian mainland, a usage which I suspect fell out of usage by the start of the twentieth century due to Australian sensitivity about being viewed as an island and in more recent times indigenous Australian sensitivity about being different from Torres Strait Islanders.

The political manipulation & use of the term 'Austronesia' came into affect since the 1930s by which time Standard Oil executives had extensive desires to both discredit the Dutch administration and prevent the region from being divided into multiple independent States which would have made life difficult for other Rockefeller related corporations such as Exxon, ConcoPhilips, Freeport Sulphur, etc. to gain and keep their mine licenses. By the end of WW-ii the Ford Foundation joined the Rockefeller in this interest, though for different reasons, the Rockefeller group were motivated by personal profit, whereas the Ford Foundation viewed replacing the Dutch East Indies with a US corporate model was an ideal means to improve the U.S. quality of life. Both presented the corporatisation of the region as the only means to fund the Marshall plan for Europe with the resources of 'Asia' as it was stated at Ford functions in 1949.

To support the Javanese claims to Western Papua, university studies were presented to prove that Papua was ecologically, geographically, and historically part of Asia and not Melanesian. To support these claims a racial theory was proposed, based mostly upon linguistics that claimed the indigenous people of West Papua were not Melanesian but Asian Austronesians, and were the descendents of a dark skinned Malay population. Funny enough the US universities which supported these theories through the 1950s became silent once West Papua's administration had been transfered to Indonesia.

The term Melanesian is most extensively used to specifically distinguish people from the Asian and Polynesian peoples and cultures. There has also been a growing political movement for a Melanesian confederation of States. 211.30.95.182 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your extensive reply. I'm not sure how 'conflate' is insulting. Maybe there's been some usage in the past that makes it insulting, but I'm not aware of it.

 * Anyway, the term 'Austronesian' is the name of a large group of related languages, which includes all of the Polynesian languages, those of Micronesa, Indonesia, Philippines and the indigenous languages of Taiwan. There are also Austronesian languages spoken in New Guinea, mainly in coastal and island areas. 'Austronesian' is a language family, and the term is also commonly used to refer to the people who speak the languages. I've never heard of it used in the way you describe '...referring to anything south of the equator'. This would be an odd usage as 'austronesia' comes from the Greek for 'south islands' and so could not be used to refer to the continents that are south of the equator. As far as I know, 'austronesian' has never been used to refer to '...anything from Indonesia to Melanesia to Polynesia' as it has always excluded the 'non-Austronesian' people, otherwise known as Papuans.

 * I'm afraid I know nothing of the politically manipulative use of 'austronesian' but I'd be interested if you could point me to some sources on this. I know very little about the business you mention with Ford, Standard Oil, etc. Nor do I know anything about the university studies you mention that were used to prove West New Guinea to be part of Asia and not Melanesia. My understanding was that it was the history of the Tidore and Ternate sultanates that were used as 'proof' of a historical connection between Indonesia and West New Guinea. I am however very dubious about this 'racial theory based on linguistics'. Linguists were amongst the first academics to dispute the existence of 'racial' groups, but what you say about this seems a bit confused, though I guess you're just reporting what was being claimed in the times you're talking about.  I say that because it is true that there are Austronesian people in West New Guinea, and wrong to use the term 'Melanesians' as though it were an equivalent type of group to 'Austronesians'. As I said above, there are, broadly speaking, two groups of people in New Guinea, Austronesians and Papuans. Javanese and most of the people of Indonesia are also Austronesian. And it is certainly silly and wrong that this connection was used to support the idea that West New Guinea should be incorporated into Indonesia.

 * The term 'melanesia' refers to an area, and was originally used to refer to the darker-skinned people of the western Pacific, as distinct from the people of the 'small islands' (Micronesia) and the 'many islands' (Polynesia) as these people had lighter skins. Certainly, 'Melanesia' is also used to refer to the poeple of the area, but it should always be remembered that this is primarily a geographical reference. It is indeed used to distinguish between those people and Polynesians and Indonesians, but neveretheless many of the people of Melanesia are Austronesian and related to other Austronesian groups in Polynesia and Indonesia.

 * As for a political movement for a Melanesian confederation of states, well, yes, there is occasional talk about it, but I don't think it'll happen. I can't imagine Fiji being willing to join with the Solomons and/or PNG. Fiji's idea of the 'Melanesia Way' is quite different to that in PNG. And look at Bougainville, doing its best to break away and form a new nation.

 * Anyway, my main point is that the term 'Melanesia' does not distinguish between the two groups, Austronesians and Papuans; in fact it combines them, being used to refer to people of both those groups that live in a particular region (and of course 'Papuans' are not a single group either). Dougg 00:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps as a linguistics expert you could insert a few sentences of discussion of the terms Austronesian versus non-Austronesian and Melanesian versus Papuan, which I understand to be parallel synonymous usages, without any political or other baggage, apart from their unfortunate ambiguity. Masalai 07:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

 * No, 'Melanesian vs. Papuan' is not parallel to 'Austronesian vs. non-Austronesian'. I think the first paragraph of the article covers it fairly well. If you think it's unclear let me know and I'll consider adding to it. Dougg 04:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Not currently, perhaps, but in the fairly recent past, certainly. And at other times the position has been that the non-Austronesian languages of Melanesia bear some remote ancestral relationship and should be classed as Papuan -- whether as distinguished from Austronesian or -- yes, "Melanesian." (See any one of many anthropological treatises and undergraduate textbooks published from the 30s through at least the 80s: Douglas Oliver's A Solomon Island Society, on the Siwai of Southwest Bougainville, for example.) The upshot is that there has been a range of terminological conventions over time, and it would be sensible to advert to these since now they all continue to be amply represented on the linguistics and anthropology shelves of libraries the world over. To be sure, "Melanesian/Papuan" is hopelessly ambiguous and let us hope it has been jettisoned. But it was indeed the terminology corresponding to New Guinea-Austronesian and non-Austronesian at one point. It is hardly surprising in the circumstances that whose who are not well read in the literature might find it all rather confusing. Masalai 06:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that 'non-Austronesian' is synonymous with 'Papuan' (actually I prefer the latter term). My disagreement with the parallel is because 'Melanesian' does not refer to a single group, but rather originated as a cover term for the dark-skinned people of the south-western Pacific, and continues to be used to refer to that region and its people, and so includes Papuans and Austronesians. I can see however that an anthropologist might use 'melanesian' when talking about Austronesians to contrast those from that region with Polynesians and Micronesians, but I imagine it would be clear from the context? Anyway, if you have examples of that usage I agree that it would be a good idea to add mention of it to the article. Dougg 06:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Moore
You're welcome. I'm currently working on putting Diary of Ten Years on Wikisource; I'm 29% finished. I doubt I'll have the energy to put A Descriptive Vocabulary online too. If you're interested in taking this on, I can provide error-ridden OCR text. No pressure - source transcription is certainly not everybody's cup of tea. Snottygobble | Talk 08:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmm, I'm pretty sure 'A Descriptive Vocabulary...' has already been keyboarded. I'll look into it with my colleagues who have worked on Nyungar. I don't have Bindon's compilation of Nyungar wordlists to hand (another thing in the office...) but he might have it in an electronic format of some kind (though probably ugly). cheers, Dougg 09:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Language extinction
Answer on my own talk page. Caesarion 11:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Yagan"
Hi Dougg,

Would you mind double-checking my IPA rendering of the pronunciation of "Yagan". At the head of the article I have rendered it as, and later in the article I have written:
 * Contemporary documents sometimes spelled Yagan's name Egan or Eagan, which suggests that the correct pronunciation may have been closer to than the now widely accepted.

If you disagree with this, please feel free to correct it.

Drew (Snottygobble) | Talk 04:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi, your IPA looks good for the way I've heard the name said by English speakers (tho I think there should probably be a schwa in there, i.e. ). I've never heard it said by speakers of Nyungar so can't say much about that. Dougg 00:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks Dougg. Drew (Snottygobble) | Talk 00:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The National Indigenous Languages (NILS) Survey Report (2005)
I thought this might be of interest http://www.dcita.gov.au/indig/maintenance_indigenous_languages/publications

The National Indigenous Languages (NILS) Survey Report (2005) (PDF format, size 2.6 MB) -- Paul foord 11:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Bill Stanner
Hi Doug, you might be able to add something to the Bill Stanner stub. Paul foord 14:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi Paul, I'm not really a Stannerologist, but I'll see what I can do. Dougg 02:24, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Devil's Marbles
Hi Doug

My source of information on the traditional owners of the site came from. I have no problem with you correcting any error that I might have transferred from the Alice Springs News article to the article. Tiles 08:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the article pointer. I note that it does actually say, correctly, that the Devil's Marbles is on Kaytetye country. Dougg 04:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, my mistake. Well spotted. Tiles 05:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Tjukurpa
Hi Dougg,

There's a proposal under discussion at Talk:Dreamtime (mythology) to move the article to Tjukurpa. I'd appreciate your input in the debate in general, but specifically I'd like your response to the question whether the word "Tjukurpa" is shared by many indigenous dialects or is unique to one dialect.

Snottygobble 03:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Thanks for the input. Snottygobble 04:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

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austronesian homeland
Dougg, Added the section on "Homeland" to the Austronesian languages page. Thanks kicking in your comment.

Ling.Nut 02:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding 'weasel words' edit
Hi, my edit to the Indigenous Australians article was improperly labeled, it was late, I ment to mark it as 'removing peacock words'. Weasel words is not POV, it as a Wikipedia Guide to actually reduce POV :) The new wikilink is fine, but the other words were not needed (see the peacock guide for more information). And sorry for the all the confusion! -Trjn 07:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Australian Aborigines and agriculture pre 1788
There is a discussion about whether Australian Aborigines, practised agriculture pre white settlement on an AFD Articles for deletion/Aboriginal and European agricultural practices in Australia. Is there any linguistic evidence relevant to this? Paul foord 09:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Not that I'm aware of. There is work in progress to reconstruct culture history using historical linguistics (in combination with archaeology), but it's still in the early stages. Dougg 01:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Jayapura, "Papua"
The anon who's editing these areas seems not to have adult Western thought processes. See THIS for a sixteenth-century reference to "Papua" as a name for "New Guinea" (scroll down to the table under History). PNG is a remote and mysterious place to me, but I'm interested in learning more about the geography and WWII naval history of Oro Bay. Do you happen to know where I might find something? (Google and my local library sources don't do the job. I've communicated with a very nice guy from the University of PNG, but there are some language problems.) Lou Sander 01:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Hmm, our Dept of Foreign Affairs looks like it's quoting WP! Have a look at the history section of New Guinea for some detail on the name 'Papua'. Re Meneses, it's not clear what he saw, it could have been the tip of New Guinea, it could have been one of the small islands nearby. Also, he didn't name the place he saw 'Papua', but rather ilhas dos Papuas or 'Island of the Papuas'. At the time the name 'Papua' was also used for the general area and especially for Halmahera. Anyway, since 1545 (when de Retez sailed a fair way along the northern coast, establishing that there was a substantial body of land there) the island has been known as 'New Guinea'. While I personally consider it simply incorrect to call the island 'Papua', I accept it being on WP as an alternative name for the place, but I liked having the 'unofficial' tag there for clarity. For reasons I can't fathom some people seem to think it's insulting (see the recent discussion higher up on this page under 'Papua name usage').

 * Regards Oro Bay, sorry, I haven't had anything to do with that area (I spend most of my time in PNG in Sandaun Province) but you could try the Australian War Memorial, a huge museum which has a lot of info on the New Guinea campaigns: . I'll contact a historian I know who specialises in PNG and let you know if she can suggest other sources. Dougg 01:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

 * So far, it's hugely difficult to find much about New Guinea here in the U.S. I haven't visited a really large library yet, but so far the geographical information is very sketchy. No detailed maps, very brief descriptions of places, etc. I've gotten ten books about WWII New Guinea campaigns, but there's only mention of the ground war, which must have been very bloody. My interest in Oro Bay, etc. stems from my interest in WWII attack cargo ships. I was an officer aboard one in the early 1960s. I've created Wikipedia articles on something like 100 of those ships, basically from facts available from a U.S. Navy history site. These ships were constantly visiting Hollandia, Humboldt Bay, and other places in the area. There must have been some huge naval bases in those locations, but they're long gone, and information about them is very hard to find. I'm pretty pleased with my work on Teluk Yos Sudarso, and I'd like to do the same for Oro Bay, but it's really tough to find any info. If your friend knows anything at all about it, I'd love to hear from her. I've got some specific questions. Pretty interesting place, New Guinea. Lou Sander 03:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Pintupi language
Hi Dougg, I'm not too sure how to send messages, but here goes. I created a separate Pintupi people page and moved that last par there, as it wasn't about the language, but the people. Most Indigenous pages appear to have both a people and a language page. Cheers

 * Thanks, I thought that was probably what you'd done. You're right that the para was a bit out of place in the language article. Dougg 05:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Makinti Napanangka
Hi Dougg, thanks for your responses at the above's talk page. I've made changes largely as suggested, including switching to calling her "Makinti" throughout the article. Since you seem to be across the linguistics a bit, here's one you might like to ponder: Rosella Namok is from Lockhart River in far north Queensland. i have a biography of her that in one place refers to her as "Rosella" and in another as "Namok", while the McCulloch Encyclopedia nicely sidesteps the issue by not using her name again after spelling it out in full in the first line! Any thoughts? Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi Hamiltonstone, thanks for the positive feedback. I'm not at all familiar with the languages of that part of Qld but I'll try to find out what's considered most correct. I've just had a look at http://www.artgang.com.au/artist_rosella.html and it does appear that they're using surnames, but I'll check it out some more and get back to you. Dougg (talk) 05:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Napaljarri
Hi Dougg, I'm working on some Indigenous artist bios. Can you advise me on: All help gratefully appreciated. hamiltonstone (talk) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * how to correctly describe what we would call "surnames" used by desert artists (eg. Napaljarri)
 * whether Napaljarri and Napaltjarri are synonyms or denote different groups
 * whether you can find any online sources I can cite / read, to help in describing the names and their use when I am preparing the articles?

 * Hi Hamiltonstone,

 * These names are usually referred to informally as 'skin names' and are known to anthropologists as 'section' or 'subsection' terms. Although in traditional usage they are not surnames as they are not passed down, in some parts of Australia they have come to be used as surnames (ie in south-west WA). Sometimes this can make it hard to know how the person uses the name.
 * Yes, 'Napaljarri' and 'Napaltjarri' are almost certainly the same name but spelled according to two different orthographies, one of which uses 'tj' and the other 'j', for what is pretty much the same sound. These two spellings look to me like Warlpiri (Napaljarri) and Western Desert (Napaltjarri) as this is one of the differences between the orthographies used by those two languages. Despite this spelling difference, the words are pronounced the same in both languages.
 * The WP article on Australian Aboriginal kinship has some info but it needs substantial rewriting. The section on Pintupi lists the skin names used by this language group and indicates preferred marriage relationships and offspring skin names. There's a useful .pdf fact sheet describing the Arrernte skin name system here []. Just found another really good link, with a really good overview and lots of references, here: []. If you're keen on a really detailed introduction to kinship in general and Australian Aboriginal kinship in particular you could look at [], but there's a lot of it.

 * Hope that helps! cheers, Dougg (talk) 03:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Pitjantjatjara People
''As you requested (3 Feb) I've added a reference to support my statement at Pitjantjatjara people that loss of one of two identical adjacent syllables (ie haplology) occurs within the language name 'Pitjantjatjara'. It likewise occurs in 'Yankunytjatjara' so I might add the comment there as well. Within Pitjantjatjara (and indeed all Western Desert Language varieties) this *is* pronouncing it properly. cheers Dougg (talk) 05:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)''
 * Excellent work! Donama (talk) 06:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Citations in Wilfrid Douglas
Hi Dougg, I was just reading through the talk page at Noongar people and I noticed that you created an article on Wilfrid Douglas. After looking it over, I noticed that the references are not Wikified; it also seems to be a mix of a bibliography and a works cited sheet. Would you be interested in fixing it? I cannot as I cannot differentiate between what is being used as a reference and is listed only because it was written by him. Thanks. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:15, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Pretty good article, BTW. Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Diana Marmion Temple

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text:
East Papuan languages

The East Papuan languages is a defunct proposal for a family of Papuan languages spoken on the islands to the east of New Guinea, including New Britain, New Ireland, Bougainville, Solomon Islands, and the Santa Cruz Islands. There is no evidence that these languages are related to each other, and the Santa Cruz languages are no longer recognized as Papuan.

All but two of the starred languages below (Yélî Dnye and Sulka) make a gender distinction in their pronouns. Several of the heavily Papuanized Austronesian languages of New Britain do as well. This suggests a pre-Austronesian language area in the region.

History of the proposal
The East Papuan languages were proposed as a family by linguist Stephen Wurm (1975) and others. However, their work was preliminary, and there is little evidence that the East Papuan languages actually have a genetic relationship. For example, none of these fifteen languages marked with asterisks below share more than 2–3% of their basic vocabulary with any of the others. Dunn and colleagues (2005) tested the reliability of the proposed 2–3% cognates by randomizing the vocabulary lists and comparing them again. The nonsense comparisons produced the same 2–3% of "shared" vocabulary, demonstrating that the proposed cognates of the East Papuan languages, and even of proposed families within the East Papuan languages, are as likely to be due to chance as to any genealogical relationship. Thus in a conservative classification, many of the East Papuan languages would be considered language isolates.

Since the islands in question have been settled for at least 35,000 years, their considerable linguistic diversity is unsurprising. However, Malcolm Ross (2001; 2005) has presented evidence from comparing pronouns from nineteen of these languages that several of the lower-level branches of East Papuan may indeed be valid families. This is the classification adopted here. For Wurm's more inclusive classification, see the Glottolog page here.

Small families
Each of the first five entries in boldface is an independent language family, not known to be related to the others. Languages that are transparently related to each other are listed together on the same line. The first family is a more tentative proposal than the others and awaits confirmation.

Reconstructed pronoun sets for each of the families are given in the individual articles.

 * ? Yele – West New Britain family [tentative]

 * East New Britain family

 * North Bougainville family (Bougainville)

 * South Bougainville family (Bougainville)

 * Central Solomon family

* Dunn and colleagues found no demonstrable shared vocabulary between these fifteen languages.

** Ross considered these four languages in addition to the fifteen studied by Dunn and colleagues.

True language isolates
These three languages are not thought to be demonstrably related to each other or to any language in the world.

 * Sulka isolate* – New Britain (poor data quality; the possibility remains that Sulka will be shown to be related to Kol or Baining)
 * Kol isolate* – New Britain
 * Kuot (Panaras) isolate* – New Ireland

 * Dunn and colleagues found no demonstrable shared vocabulary between these fifteen languages.

Austronesian languages formerly classified as East Papuan
Wurm classified the three languages of the Santa Cruz and Reef Islands as an additional family within East Papuan. However, new data on these languages, along with advances in the reconstruction of Proto-Oceanic, has made it clear that they are in fact Austronesian:
 * Reefs – Santa Cruz languages: Santa Cruz, Nanggu, Äiwoo

Similarly, Wurm had classified the extinct Kazukuru language and its possible sister languages of New Georgia as a sixth branch of East Papuan. However, in a joint 2007 paper, Dunn and Ross argued that this was also Austronesian.
 * Kazukuru family: Kazukuru language

Lexical comparison
The tables below give lexical comparisons for the East Papuan languages (i.e., all Papuan languages spoken in New Britain and islands to the east), with languages listed roughly from west to east. All lexical items are from the Trans-New Guinea database unless noted otherwise.

title: East Papuan languages


text:
James Cromwell

James Oliver Cromwell (born January 27, 1940) is an American actor and activist. Known for his extensive work as a character actor, he has received a Primetime Emmy Award as well as a nomination for the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for Babe (1995). Other notable roles include in Star Trek: First Contact (1996), L.A. Confidential (1997), Deep Impact (1998), The Green Mile (1999), The Queen (2006), W. (2008), Secretariat (2010), The Artist (2011), Still Mine (2013), Marshall (2017), and Emperor (2020). He has also voiced roles in Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron (2002), and Big Hero 6 (2014).

Cromwell is also well known for his roles in television including Angels in America (2003), Six Feet Under (2003–2005), American Horror Story: Asylum (2012–2013), for which he won the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Miniseries or a Movie, Boardwalk Empire (2012–2013), The Young Pope (2016), Counterpart (2018–2019), Succession (2018–2023), for which he earned three Primetime Emmy Award nominations for Outstanding Guest Actor, and Sugar (2024).

Early life and education
Cromwell was born in Los Angeles, California. He is the son of actress Kay Johnson (1904–1975) and actor and director John Cromwell (1886–1979), who was blacklisted during the McCarthy era. His parents divorced in 1946. He has English, German, Irish, and Scottish ancestry. He graduated from The Hill School in 1958, and went on to Middlebury College, and Carnegie Mellon University, where he graduated with a B.F.A. in 1964. He received his acting training at HB Studio.

Career
Cromwell's first television performance was in a 1974 episode of The Rockford Files playing Terry, a tennis instructor. A few weeks later, he began a recurring role as Stretch Cunningham on All in the Family. In 1975, he took his first lead role on television as Bill Lewis in the short-lived Hot l Baltimore, and appeared on M*A*S*H as Captain Leo Bardonaro in the episode "Last Laugh". A year later, he made his film debut in Neil Simon's classic detective spoof Murder by Death. Cromwell portrayed four different characters in four episodes of Barney Miller (1977–1981). In 1977 he appeared in Three's Company episode- "Chrissy's Night Out" as Detective Lannigan.

In 1980, Cromwell guest-starred in the two-part episode "Laura Ingalls Wilder" of the long-running television series Little House on the Prairie. He played Harve Miller, one of Almanzo Wilder's old friends.

While Cromwell continued with regular television work throughout the 1980s, he made appearances in films with supporting roles in Tank and Revenge of the Nerds (both 1984). He guest starred on the sitcom Night Court, playing a mental patient, along with Kevin Peter Hall. He had starring roles in the critically acclaimed films Babe (1995), The People vs. Larry Flynt (1996), The Education of Little Tree (1997), L.A. Confidential (1997), The Green Mile (1999), The General's Daughter, (1999) and Snow Falling on Cedars (1999). Cromwell's first Star Trek role was on Star Trek: The Next Generation in 1990, in the season 3 episode "The Hunted", followed by the 1993 episode "Birthright, Part 1" as Jaglom Shrek. He also played Dr. Zefram Cochrane in Star Trek: First Contact (1996), the Star Trek: Enterprise pilot episode "Broken Bow", and the 2022 Star Trek: Lower Decks season 3 premiere episode, "Grounded". The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "In a Mirror, Darkly" reused some of the First Contact footage. Cromwell appeared in another Star Trek role on the television series Deep Space Nine, in the episode "Starship Down" as Hanok. He also voiced the Colonel in DreamWorks' Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron.

Cromwell's role as newspaper tycoon William Randolph Hearst in the television film RKO 281 earned him an Emmy Award nomination for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Television Movie. The following year, he received his second Emmy Award nomination for playing Bishop Lionel Stewart on the NBC medical drama series ER. In 2004, he guest-starred as former President D. Wire Newman in The West Wing episode "The Stormy Present". From 2003 to 2005, Cromwell played George Sibley in the HBO drama series Six Feet Under, which earned him his third Emmy Award nomination in 2003. Along with the rest of his castmates, he was also nominated for two Screen Actors Guild Awards for Best Ensemble in a Drama Series in 2005 and 2006. The following year, Cromwell played Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh in The Queen (2006), that earned Helen Mirren an Academy Award for Best Actress. He also guest starred as Phillip Bauer, father of lead character Jack, in the sixth season of the Fox thriller drama series 24.

In October 2007, Cromwell played the lead role of James Tyrone Sr. in the Druid Theatre Company's production of Eugene O'Neill's Long Day's Journey into Night, at the Gaiety in Dublin as part of the Ulster Bank Dublin Theatre Festival's 50th Anniversary. That same year he received the King Vidor Memorial Award from the San Luis Obispo International Film Festival for his artistic achievements in film. Cromwell played George H. W. Bush in Oliver Stone's W. (2008), that chronicles the rise to power of Bush's son up until the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Cromwell also provided the voice of the main villain Professor Robert Callaghan/Yokai in the Disney movie Big Hero 6.

In 2015, Cromwell executive produced the documentary Imminent Threat which tackles the War on Terror's impact on civil liberties.

In 2016 Cromwell starred in HBO's series The Young Pope alongside Jude Law and Diane Keaton. In 2018, he appeared in HBO's Succession, and Starz's Counterpart.

In 2020, Cromwell starred in the Australian comedy-drama film Never Too Late. Cromwell starred in Operation Buffalo, an Australian television comedy-drama series about the atomic bomb tests in outback Australia, which screened on ABC from 31 May 2020.

He is currently featured in the HBO Max show Julia, as Julia Child's father, John McWilliams.

In 2021, Cromwell executive produced the psychedelic comedy Mondo Hollywoodland, directed by Janek Ambros, who also directed Imminent Threat.

Activism
Cromwell has long been an advocate of progressive causes, particularly regarding animal rights. He became a vegetarian in 1974 after seeing a stockyard in Texas and experiencing the "smell, terror and anxiety". He became vegan while playing the character of Farmer Hoggett in the 1995 film Babe. He frequently speaks out on issues regarding animal cruelty for PETA, largely on the treatment of pigs. In 2017, he was arrested during a PETA protest against SeaWorld's treatment of orca whales, at which he spoke about marine mammals' suffering and premature deaths.

Cromwell served as the narrator of the short film Farm to Fridge, a documentary produced by Mercy for Animals. In February 2013, Cromwell was arrested along with animal rights activist Jeremy Beckham for interrupting a University of Wisconsin Board of Regents meeting while showing a graphic photo of a cat to protest about alleged mistreatment of animals on campus. The incident, which garnered widespread press coverage, was resolved on March 25, 2013, when an attorney representing Cromwell entered no-contest pleas to the non-criminal offense and agreed to pay $100 forfeitures and court costs of $263.50. In December 2015, he was removed from an event in New York for heckling an energy company receiving an award. On December 18, 2015, Cromwell and five other people were arrested while protesting against the construction of a natural gas power station in Wawayanda, New York, near his home in Warwick, New York. He and his fellow protesters, called the "Wawayanda Six", were convicted of disorderly conduct and obstruction of traffic. They were fined $375, due June 29, 2017 and sentenced to 16 hours of community service. After refusing to pay the fine, he was sentenced to a week in jail, scheduled to go on July 14. However, they were released three days later on July 17. Cromwell and fellow Star Trek actor J. G. Hertzler were among the 19 people arrested in Watkins Glen, New York on June 6, 2016, for a protest against underground gas storage in salt caverns near Seneca Lake. On June 6, 2017, he was escorted out of a Democratic Party fundraiser (which New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi attended) after disrupting the event by protesting about the power station. Cromwell was again arrested, this time for trespassing after taking part in a protest along with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) at Seaworld on July 24.

On October 31, 2019, Cromwell was again arrested with 34-year-old animal rights activist Jeremy Beckham. They were charged with disorderly conduct after police said they disrupted a meeting of the Texas A&M University System Board of Regents. The two were part of a demonstration by PETA, protesting A&M's use of dogs for medical research. Both were released after posting bonds of $5,000 each.

In May 2022, Cromwell superglued his hand on the counter of a Manhattan Starbucks to protest the surcharge of plant-based milks. Later that year, PETA named him their 2022 Person of the Year. In April 2023, he helped rehome a pig destined for slaughter to the Indraloka Animal Sanctuary and named it "Babe".

Personal life
Cromwell married Ann Ulvestad in 1977. They divorced in 1986. Together the couple had three children: Kate, John and Colin. Cromwell married actress Julie Cobb on May 29, 1986; they divorced in 2005. On January 1, 2014, Cromwell married actress Anna Stuart at the home of Stuart's former Another World co-star Charles Keating. Cromwell lives in Warwick, New York.

Cromwell is known for his height; at 6ft 7in, he is the tallest actor nominated for an Academy Award. His son John is even taller, standing 6ft 8in. In the 2012 film Memorial Day, John played the young Bud Vogel, while James played him as a grandfather, and both Cromwells appear as the same character at different ages in American Horror Story: Asylum (2012) and the first season of Betrayal (2013).

Politics
Cromwell's experiences of the Civil Rights Movement while on a theatre tour through several Deep South states in 1964 had a profound effect on him. The courage of local campaigners and visiting activists – Cromwell had played high school football with civil rights worker Mickey Schwerner, who was murdered with two of his colleagues in Mississippi in 1964 – convinced him to become an activist. He subsequently became involved in the anti-Vietnam War movement, and by the late 1960s, Cromwell was a member of the Committee to Defend the Panthers, a group organized to defend 13 members of the Black Panther Party who had been imprisoned in New York on charges of conspiracy. All 13 were eventually released. In a 2004 interview with CNN, Cromwell praised the Panthers.

In an October 2008 interview, Cromwell criticized the Republican Party and the George W. Bush administration, saying that their foreign policy would "either destroy us or the entire planet".

He supported the presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

title: James Cromwell


text:
Talk:Thebes, Egypt

link
I didn't see a link to Pharoah on either the Memphis page or this Thebes page. Would it be sensible for one or both of them to so link ?

Afrocentric bias not needed
The complete body of the text on Thebes has been replaced for the second time with an article that is rife with Afrocentric bias. Moreover, it is, quite frankly, poorly written, and it is not properly formatted for use with Wiki. To the anonymous individual at 24.209.250.134 who is posts this material, please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view article and the relevent pages on formatting.

I am therefore changing the article back to what it was before the Afrocentric version was inserted. I would, however, like to invite 24.209.250.134 to contribute all s/he wants, but ask that a NPOV be maintained. We can then avoid an edit war. --Nefertum17 08:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Which bias would you prefer? Rktect 10:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Theba of Egypt and Theba of Boeotia
Why Greeks named the city "Niwt-rst" or "Waset", capital of Southern Kingdom, as "Thebae", which is the name of Boeotian city?

What was the relation between two Thebas?

--IonnKorr 20:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

 * 'The name Thebes is often mistakenly thought to derive from the name of the Greek town called'

 * Um -- if it's 'mistakenly', well then a number of hugely respected Egyptologists (both alive and dead) are mistaken. Barry Kemp explicitly discusses the Greek Thebes/Egypt Thebes relationship.--Pwaryuex 04:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It was a "mistake" by the ancient Greeks, I suppose is meant here. But wasn´t it Herodotus who wrote about Thebes with one hundred gates, I hardly recall this from the Illiad by Homer? --JFK 12:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Population figures
It is difficult and sometimes even impossible to rank the world´s top five largest cities in ancient times. The Chandler list is based on some very general assumptions. --JFK 12:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed the 1980 to 1780, which I believe to be a typo.

 * It is believed that Thebes was the largest city in the world from 1780 BC to 1770 BC and from 1400 to 668 BC.
 * Removed until verified. --JFK 11:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Antiquity of Thebes
"Ancient Egyptian Waset was called Thebes by the Greeks, T3 ipet was the Luxor temple. Djeme (Medinet Habu) sounded similar to that of the Greeks Boetian city. Local rulers were expansionist in the first and second intermediate periods when the Mycenean Greek emporia in the delta were beginning to do to Egypt what Western inroads in Shanghai did to China in the 18th century. Monuments earlier than the old kingdom are scarce and Thebes appears to be closely linked to the rise of the mummification industry at Karnak in the Eleventh dynasty of Egypt and the Twelfth dynasty of Egypt Red Sea trade which supplied it with GoldBitumen, Naptha, Natron, Frankincense, Myrrh, and carved stone amulets. In the Seventeenth dynasty of Egypt the carving of tombs into the rock of the Valley of Kings increased Thebes stature and allows the kings of Thebes to drive the Hyksos out. In the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt the attention shifts to the wars against Kadesh and Syria. The disruption of the Amarna letters with the Habiru bandits moving northwest from Elat into Canaan, and the raids and piracy of the Sea People as described by Wen Amon forcing stronger border defenses. In the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt Rameses Meri Amun named the horses of his war chariot 'Victory of Thebes' but a good deal of his time was spent campaigning in the north and the affairs of Thebes are left to the temple administrators of Amun. During the third intermediate period Thebes formed a counterbalance to the influence of the 21st and 22nd Dynasty Libyan kings who ruled from Tanis in the delta. As the original Montu, the bull of Thebes developed into a a triad dedicated to Amon, Mut and Khons, Thebes (T3-ipet), plus Luxor (Ipet-resyt), and Karnak (Ipet-isut) formed a temple complex that with Deir-el bahr stretched an itrw or river journey, 1/10 of a geographical degree along the Nile." Rktect 11:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Name in hieroglyphs
Can't believe the city's name is included in several languages but not in the original :) There are several versions for it, I don't know if it's possible to put these hiero boxes next to each other so that they'll look nice?

"Waset" means "City of the Sceptre", "niwt-rs.t" is "Southern City" and "iunu-shema" is "Heliopolis of the South". (There are two words for south because rs, feminine rs.t means south and sm’ means literally "upstream on the river". – Alensha   talk  12:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, it's very pretty! – Alensha   talk  18:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"References"
If they aren't being used, don't include them.

That said, the following can be used for expanding the article or can be used to cite facts that are currently unreferenced: — Llywelyn II   23:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2016
"On the west bank, he built the his enormous mortuary temple and the equally massive Malkata palace-city which fronted a 364-hectare arificial lake."

The word "artificial" has been misspelled. I tried to correct it but I am not a registered user and so was unable to alter a semi protected page. Thank you!

BakaSugiru (talk) 13:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ and resolve "the his" as your quote - Arjayay (talk) 17:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Proposing "In literature" section
Thebes is the setting of at least a few notable novels. Would a section listing these novels be an improvement? For starters: I suspect there are others as well. I've only done a cursory search. Eye of the Moon is an orphan, and I think this is a good opportunity to properly incorporate it into the encyclopaedia. Matthew V. Milone (talk) 15:50, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * A God Against the Gods & Return to Thebes
 * Eye of the Moon
 * Thebes at War

 * "In popular culture" sections have problems; they often accumulate a great deal of trivia. If you're thinking of including modern novels, such a section would be more or less dedicated to a subcategory of "in popular culture". Moreover, Thebes is probably the most popular setting for novels set in ancient Egypt because it's one of very few major Egyptian cities whose geography is easy to reconstruct. Thus, the list could get very long. If you do decide to make such a section, I recommend the advice in the essay "In popular culture". A. Parrot (talk) 00:14, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Good to know. In that case, it might be a bad idea. Still, it seems worth mentioning somewhere in the article what you said: that our unusual amount of knowledge about the city makes it a popular setting for stories. Thanks for the input. Matthew V. Milone (talk) 01:19, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

 * It would be worth including, but, unfortunately, I know of no reliable source that says what I just said. Without sources it's original research and can't be added to the article. A. Parrot (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Meaning of thebes
I am not a linguist, but Arabic form of its name, طیبة, may be interpreted as Pure or pleasant or neat. مسعوداص (talk) 04:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Biblical attribution
"This name of Thebes appears in the Bible as the "Nōʼ ʼĀmôn" (נא אמון) in the Book of Nahum and also as "No" (נא) mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel and Jeremiah."

The Book of Nahum describes No Amon as "Sitting among channels, surrounded by water, the sea is its bulwark". This doesn't sound like a description of Thebes. Furthermore, the Targum and the majority of Medieval commentaries describe No Amon as Alexandria, or an ancient city that preceded it in the same location, which sounds more compatible with the description in Nahum. Additionally, the 15th century responsa of Rabbi Shlomo Duran (Rashbash chapt. 1), who resided in Algiers, distinguishes between someone travelling to the Holy Land from a distant location--which he describes as farther than No Amon--as opposed to from a close origin which is closer than No Amon. It is not logical that in Algiers he would describe travelling to the Holy Land down the Nile, but eminently reasonable that one would travel the Mediterranean, and Alexandria would be much closer than Algiers along the same path.

I'm not an archeologist and I've never edited a Wikipedia page before, so I'm reluctant to make any change personally. But, it seems to me that Nahum is not referring to Thebes as No Amon, and in the 15th century some Mediterranean port was called No Amon, perhaps Alexandria. PZM71 (talk) 15:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

 * This issue is discussed in the source cited at the end of that sentence in the article; I found a copy online, here. Apparently, this passage in Nahum has puzzled people for a long time. This paper makes it sound as though most scholars consider the No-Amon in Nahum to be Thebes, though a minority have argued that it must refer to some city in the Nile Delta where Amun was also worshipped. The author of the paper argues that because Nahum is making the point that Nineveh will suffer destruction as Thebes did, he takes a description of the geography of Nineveh and poetically transplants it to fit Thebes as well. I may write a footnote to explain this issue when I have the time. A. Parrot (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, that source was very helpful.
 * I'm still confused regarding the responsa of Rabbi Duran, which is how I found this topic to begin with. Perhaps, since traditional Jewish sources identified No-Amon as Alexandria, the association entered the vernacular. PZM71 (talk) 17:00, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Thebes, Egypt


text:
Dionysius

The name Dionysius (Διονύσιος Dionysios, "of Dionysus"; Dionysius) was common in classical and post-classical times. Etymologically it is a nominalized adjective formed with a -ios suffix from the stem Dionys- of the name of the Greek god, Dionysus, parallel to Apollon-ios from Apollon, with meanings of Dionysos' and Apollo's, etc. The exact beliefs attendant on the original assignment of such names remain unknown.

Regardless of the language of origin of Dionysos and Apollon, the -ios/-ius suffix is associated with a full range of endings of the first and second declension in the Greek and Latin languages. The names may thus appear in ancient writing in any of their cases. Dionysios itself refers only to males. The feminine version of the name is Dionysia, nominative case, in both Greek and Latin. The name of the plant and the festival, Dionysia, is the neuter plural nominative, which looks the same in English from both languages. Dionysiou is the masculine and neuter genitive case of the Greek second declension. Dionysias is not the -ios suffix.

Although in most cases transmuted, the name remains in many modern languages, such as English Dennis (Denis, Denys, Denise). The latter names have lost the suffix altogether, using Old French methods of marking the feminine, Denise. The modern Greek (closest to the original) is Dionysios or Dionysis. The Spanish is Dionisio. The Italian is Dionigi and the last name, Dionisi. Like Caesar in secular contexts, Dionysius sometimes became a title in religious contexts; for example, Dionysius was the episcopal title of the primates of Malankara Church (founded by Apostle Thomas in India) from 1765 until the amalgamation of that title with Catholicos of the East in 1934.

Athletics

 * Dionysius of Alexandria (athlete), fl. 129 AD, last winner of the stadion race at the Olympic Games of the times

Science and philosophy

 * Dionysius of Chalcedon, fl. 320 BC, philosopher of Megarian school
 * Dionysius of Cyrene, Stoic philosopher and mathematician, c. 150 BC
 * Dionysius of Lamptrai, 3rd century BC, an Epicurean philosopher and head of the "Garden"
 * Dionysius Periegetes, Greek geographer, 2nd or 3rd century
 * Dionysius the Renegade, Stoic philosopher from Heraclea who became a Cyrenaic, c. 300 BC

Letters

 * Cassius Dionysius, 2nd cent. BC, Greek agricultural writer
 * Aelius Dionysius, a Greek rhetorician from Halicarnassus (fl. early 2nd century)
 * Dionysius Chalcus, Athenian elegiac poet, 5th century BC
 * Dionysius of Halicarnassus (c. 60 BC – after 7 BC), Greek historian of the Roman period
 * Dionysius of Miletus, Greek ethnographer and historian (fl. perhaps in the 5th century BC)
 * Dionysius Thrax, Greek grammarian, 2nd century BC

Politics

 * Dion of Syracuse, 408–354 BC, tyrant of Syracuse
 * Dionysius (ambassador), 3rd century BC, ambassador to the court of the Indian ruler Ashoka
 * Dionysius (Athenian Commander), an Athenian naval commander during the Corinthian War
 * Dionysius I of Syracuse (c. 432 – 367 BC), also called Dionysius the Elder, ruler of Syracuse in Sicily
 * Dionysius II of Syracuse (c. 397 BC – 343 BC), also called Dionysius the Younger, son of the preceding
 * Dionysius of Heraclea, tyrant of Heraclea Pontica, 4th century BC
 * Dionysius of Phocaea, commander of the Ionian fleet at the Battle of Lade, 494 BC
 * Lucius Aelius Helvius Dionysius, 4th century, Roman Proconsul and Praefectus Urbi
 * Dionysios Soter, r. 65-55 BC, Indo-Greek king in the area of eastern Punjab

Before 1000 AD

 * Dionysius the Areopagite, Athenian judge who was converted by Paul of Tarsus and became Bishop of Athens
 * Dionysius of Vienne, d. 193, Bishop of Vienne, Gaul
 * Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, 2nd-century bishop
 * Faustus, Abibus and Dionysius of Alexandria, d. 250, three Christian martyrs
 * Dionysius, 3rd-century Christian martyr and saint, noted in Theodore, Philippa and companions
 * Pope Dionysius of Alexandria, 3rd-century Egyptian bishop
 * Pope Dionysius, 259–268
 * Dionysius (bishop of Milan), also called Dionysius of Milan, bishop of Milan 349-355, saint
 * Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (5th century), name claimed by a pseudonymous writer, identified by some with Georgian theologian Peter the Iberian (411–491), author of Corpus Areopagiticum
 * Dionysius Exiguus (c. 470–c. 540), monk from Scythia Minor who invented the Anno Domini era
 * Dionysius I Telmaharoyo (d. 848), Syriac Orthodox patriarch of Antioch
 * Dionysius II of Antioch (d. 908/909), Syriac Orthodox patriarch of Antioch

1000 AD to before 1600 AD

 * Dionysius (Zbyruyskyy), d. 1603, first Ukrainian Catholic bishop
 * Dionysius (Archdeacon of Aghadoe), 12th cent., first recorded Archdeacon of Aghadoe
 * Jacob Bar-Salibi also known as Dionysius Bar-salibi, member of Syrian Jacobite Church in the 12th century, best known for his commentary on biblical texts
 * Dionysius bar Masih, d. 1204, illegitimate Maphrian of the East of the Syriac Orthodox Church
 * Dionysius, Metropolitan of Kiev (c. 1300–1385), 14th century orthodox prelate
 * Dionysius (Dean of Armagh), Irish cleric, Dean of Armagh 1301–1330
 * Dionysius I of Constantinople, Saint, reigned from 1466 to 1471 and from 1488 to 1490
 * Dionisius (late 15th century–early 16th century), also called Dionysius the Wise, Russian medieval icon-painter
 * Dionysios Skylosophos (1560 AD–1611 AD), Epirotian Greek monk who led two farmer revolts against the Ottoman Turks
 * Dionysius Ó Donnchadha, 1441-1478, Bishop of Kilmacduagh
 * Dionysius Ó Mórdha, d. 1534, Bishop of Clonfert, Ireland
 * Dionysius Part, d. 1475, auxiliary Bishop of Mainz
 * Dionysius II of Constantinople, reigned from 1546 to 1556
 * Saint Dionysios of Zakynthos, 15th century Orthodox Christian Archbishop of Aegina

1600 AD and after

 * Blessed Dionysius of the Nativity, French sailor, Portuguese knight, and Carmelite martyr
 * Dionysius of Fourna, 1670-1744, Christian monk and author
 * Dionysios Mantoukas, 1648-1751, the Greek Orthodox bishop of Kastoria, Western Macedonia, modern Greece, from 1694 to 1719
 * Mar Dionysius I (died 1808), also known as Mar Dionysius the Great or Marthoma VI, Metropolitan of the Malankara Church (in India)
 * Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious II, 1833-1909, Malankara Metropolitan
 * Geevarghese Mar Dionysius of Vattasseril (1858-1934), also known as Mar Dionysius VI, Metropolitan of Malankara Church (in India), Saint
 * Dionysius Kfoury, 1879-1965, bishop of the Melkite Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Alexandria
 * Dionysios Bairaktaris, 1927-2011, Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Chios, Psara, and Inousses
 * Dionysios Mantalos, 1952-, current Metropolitan bishop of Corinth

Athletics

 * Dionisis Angelopoulos, 1992-, Greek rower
 * Dionysios Dimou, Olympic sailor
 * Dionysios Georgakopoulos, 1963-, Greek sport shooter
 * Dionysios Iliadis, Greek judoka, or Judo competitor
 * Dionysios Kasdaglis, 1872-1931, Greek-Egyptian tennis player
 * Dionysios Vasilopoulos, 1902-1964, Greek swimmer
 * Dionysius Hayom Rumbaka, 1988-, Indonesian badminton player
 * Dionysius Sebwe, 1969-, retired Liberian athlete

Fine arts

 * Dionysio Miseroni, 1607-1661, Bohemian jeweler and stonecutter
 * Dionysios Demetis, Greek composer
 * Dionysios Solomos, 1798-1857, author of Greek Hymn to Liberty.
 * Dionysios Tsokos, 1814-1862, Greek painter
 * Dionysios Vegias, 1810-1884, Greek painter of the later Heptanese School
 * Dionysis Makris, Greek singer
 * Dionysis Papagiannopoulos, Greek actor
 * Dionysis Savvopoulos, Greek songwriter, lyricist and singer
 * Dionysius Rodotheatos, 1849-1892, Greek conductor and composer
 * Georg Dionysius Ehret, 1708-1770, botanical illustrator
 * Stratos Dionysiou, 1935-1990, a Greek laika and elafro-laika singer

Letters

 * B. R. Dionysius, 1969-, Australian poet, editor, arts administrator and educator
 * Benjamin Musaphia (1606–1675), Jewish doctor, scholar, and kabbalist, who sometimes called himself Dionysius
 * Dionysios Kokkinos, 1884-1967, Greek historian and writer
 * Dionysios Solomos (1798–1857), Greek poet
 * Dionysios Zakythinos, 1905-1993, Greek Byzantinist
 * Dionysius Andreas Freher, 1649-1728, commentator on Jacob Boehme
 * Dionysius Godefridus van der Keessel, 1738-1816, Dutch jurist and educator to the royal house
 * Dionysius Lardner (1793–1859), Irish scientific writer
 * Dionysius Vossius, 1612-1635, Dutch translator

Science

 * Dionysios Ikkos, 1921-1993, Greek endocrinologist

Politics

 * Dionysia-Theodora Avgerinopoulou (born 1975), Greek lawyer and politician
 * Dionysius Adrianus Petrus Norbertus Koolen, 1871-1945, Dutch politician
 * Dionysis Diakos, Greek revolutionary leader in the Greek War of Independence
 * Dionysius Wakering (born 1617), English Parliamentarian

title: Dionysius