text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2017/September

deponentale
The etymology currently says that this was formed, within Middle Low German, using Latin elements. This seems very implausible to me. More likely, it existed in Latin already and was borrowed in one piece. —Rua (mew) 21:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

αφέντης
If this derives from Ancient Greek αὐθέντης, does that mean that some limited th-fronting went on in Greece? Tharthan (talk) 00:16, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I had suspected that Turkish had mediated it from Byzantine to Modern, but sees it as being pure inheritance. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No idea if it's regular, but it would be pretty trivial to simplify -αφθ- (< -αυθ-) to -αφ(φ)-. KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:49, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * @KarikaSlayer That's a really good point. I didn't even think of that. Tharthan (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't know if it's 'pure' inheritance; DSMG seems to say it's analogical (I'm not sure how to interpret κατά) with αφεντεύω, which would be the real inheritance from (*?)αὐθεντεύω (unattested? LSJ only has ). Note the syllable is stressed in one case, not in the other; that might make a difference. But that would only shift the question from here to there. --Barytonesis (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

mud
Even if it's from Uralic, would we be able to say that 🇨🇬 passed through a 🇨🇬/ on its way to 🇨🇬 and Dutch ? Tharthan (talk) 18:53, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe the Proto-germanic forms would have looked like, , with the suffixal forms , also appearing. Leasnam (talk) 19:26, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I've edited the etymology Leasnam (talk) 19:44, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! However, I have to ask: where would the forms with the thorn have come from, if it were derived from Proto-Uralic? Tharthan (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Precisely. I don't know much of Proto-Uralic borrowings into Proto-Germanic, so I wouldn't know how to reconcile the th sounds Leasnam (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No one knows "much" about the topic (there are only a few loans in this direction to begin with), but loaning pre-Grimm's Law from a form like Finnic is a possibility. What evidence for a  variant is there, though? Everything seems to come from . --Tropylium (talk) 01:11, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Swiss German and 🇨🇬 would need to bend back to a PGM *muþra-. A reconstructed PGmc with variant þ also appears to tie possibly with 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 Leasnam (talk) 14:19, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Where (if anywhere) would English, 🇨🇬 fit in ? Is it from the same PIE root with a different attachment ? Leasnam (talk) 15:15, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * If the word group is instead a loan in origin (and maybe even if not), perhaps the High German forms are simply loans from Low German.
 * Mayrhofer in suggests as the primary possibility that the Indo-Iranian 'urine' words are rather formed with PIE  (not ), and semi-compareable to Slavic . (He also gives just 'urine' as the meaning of the Avestan word.) The root would be  (not in LIV); the semantics are due to cow urine being used for washing clothes. 'Mud' in Germanic does not seem semantically very close to any of this.
 * The only word in this range that Kroonen reconstructs in, FWIW, is , compared with Latvian . I wonder if the Swiss German word could or should be also assumed to be a part of this root instead. --Tropylium (talk) 17:00, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * How can PGmc *mudena- answer to Latvian mudēt where the d is concerned ? Are each separate extensions of *mu- ? Also, if the Swiss word is from *mudena-, wouldn't it be mûterig instead ? What other support is there for the Uralic borrowing ? Leasnam (talk) 03:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Germanic *d ~ Latvian d would be regular from *dʰ, no? We would expect SwG -t- though, yes. I won't speculate on how that could be fixed (for starters I'd like to know if this particular form has cognates anywhere else in Germanic, even just in the High German dialects). I can note however that I'm not especially sold on Kroonen's etymology: a Germanic word that has a cognate only in Latvian sounds more like a loan into the latter than anything coming from PIE.
 * I'm not sure what you mean by "other support". --Tropylium (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * "other support", read as support Leasnam (talk) 03:37, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

meaning of trenkʷ
According to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þrinhwaną, the meaning of trenkʷ is beat, hew, press, but its lemma says it means push, press. --Espoo (talk) 19:53, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Chicken or egg on the Bay of Naples
says it's a borrowing from, which in turn says it's a borrowing from. They can't both be right. Which is? (Wikipedia says it was named after Odysseus's helmsman Baius, but that could be folk etymology.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Saturnus/σάτυρος connection?
A while ago I was wondering if it's possible there could be a connection between the Latin word Saturnus, which is variously believed to either derive from the Latin word satus or from Etruscan, and the Greek word σάτυρος (sáturos), which is of unknown etymology. My speculative reasoning for this connection is that in Greek mythology, satyrs were the followers of the god Dionysus. Dionysus, under his epithet Liknites, was depicted with a winnowing fan to separate the chaff from the grain. This connects him with the Roman deity Saturnus, who was often depicted with a sickle or scythe to cut grain. I'm no expert, and this is all speculation on my part, but what I'm wondering is if any linguists have hypothesized a connection between these two words before. --205.172.21.143 17:55, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Georgian, Persian
There's a reference to the Georgian word here, page 71 (I don't know the script). Are these cognates, and if so what is their specific relationship? DTLHS (talk) 05:36, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * (although the latter two are unlikely to respond). —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Arabic also has نقرس. DTLHS (talk) 06:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The languages are all in different families, so cognate would not be correct, but there's lots of borrowing in that part of the world- some of it extremely ancient. Other than the foregoing statement of the obvious, though, I'm out of my depth here. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't I respond? I'm not dead. I added with references. --Vahag (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. One more question, is this also related to the place name ? DTLHS (talk) 15:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't have any information on the place name. --Vahag (talk) 15:40, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks for reporting on your life status, Vahag. I may have misinterpreted your melodramatic statements on your talkpage. xD —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 16:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/104.191.66.91
Found a garbage etymology from this very productive IP:.

I'm puzzled a little bit by some of the derivations, although I'm certain that this guy is good-faith.

 * (Etymology one is the problem. Etymology 2 clicks to me.) I'm puzzled at how the rendaku could have resolved to /n/ over here...
 * He replaces an okay derivation of his with one with even more phonetic issues.
 * The IP himself asked for verification on this one and a few others.

Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Wow, that's a whole lot of rubbish. Verifiably awful rubbish.
 * I've already made some fixes to the entry.  I'll get to the others as I'm able.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Maori te, Hawaiian ke
Are these two terms related? Can a proto-form be reconstructed? —Rua (mew) 22:18, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems so, especially since Hawaiian had the change t > k and Maori didn't. And Hawaiian also had the change ng > n, and the plural definite article in Hawaiian is, while in Maori it's . What are the forms in other Polynesian languages? --WikiTiki89 22:42, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Tongan and Niuean, outliers in the Polynesian group, have and . Samoan, which is Nuclear, has, and Rapa Nui, which is Eastern, has . We have an entry  for Tongan, but Wikipedia disagrees.
 * Neither Tongan nor Samoan have a plural article it seems, while Rapa Nui has, a clear cognate. One source says that it was originally a determiner, and mentions that it behaves differently from the singular article in Rapa Nui. —Rua (mew) 23:55, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

 * FWIW, the Nā Puke Wehewehe ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi website is pretty good about including etymologies. Their entry for ke sources this to 🇨🇬 (the "PNP te" in the entry).
 * Anecdotally, I've heard that Māori and Hawaiʻian are close enough still that large chunks can be mutually intelligible, even in terms of some of the social protocol (formalized speech by both hosts and guests at the beginning and end of meetings). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Berenice
rfe: "vernish, resin" from Βερενίκη "bringer of victory"? What's the relation? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 12:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * see the wikipedia article on : "The word "varnish" comes from Latin vernix, meaning odorous resin, the etymology of which comes from the Greek Berenice, the ancient name of modern Benghazi in Libya, where the first varnishes in the Mediterranean area were used and where resins from the trees of now-vanished forests were sold. Berenice comes from the Greek words phero (to bring) + nike (victory)." A similar case would be . --Barytonesis (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Japanese personal names
So let's take some Japanese given name, like or  or. Is it generally possible to pin down a single etymology of given names like these? Or do they incorporate conflations? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In some cases, there are clear roots: さとし is the classical terminal form of modern adjective . めぐみ is the continuative or stem form of verb .  In other cases, there are too many possibilities to determine a clear derivation, such as まさと or けんじ.  If you have the kanji spelling, there's more to work with: 正人 for Masato would clearly mean “correct, proper + person”, for instance.
 * Does that answer your question? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:06, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * More than answered. But with the various kanji spellings of a name, would one search for the etymology by checking against the non-nanori readings of the kanji in the spellings? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 22:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that depends. Some names with known etymologies may still have very inventive kanji spellings.  Have a look here at the ENAMDICT entry for めぐみ.  Apparently there are 100+ spellings listed.
 * Even readings can be a mess to figure out, and sometimes you just have to ask the person themselves how they pronounce their names. Have a look at the 20 known possible readings for 純.  Oofda.
 * I'd start by seeing if there are any regular words or obvious conjugation forms with the same readings (like for Satoshi or Megumi). Next, I'd try breaking the name up into likely-looking chunks and seeing if any probable etyma present themselves, with an eye to one- or two-mora chunks (like, say, for Takamasa - 98 spellings listed in ENAMDIC, but we can guess pretty well here that taka is from, and masa is from ).
 * The nutshell version is that names are tricky. :-P  Good luck!  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:59, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Latin
Obviously this is some derivative of with the suffix, but what's the source of the -it- infix? My first thought was, but then I'd expect. KarikaSlayer (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Then your first thought must have been ... Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 21:07, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, the stem of is sānitāt-. KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

ax to grind
The etymology of this idiom refers to a tale by Benjamin Franklin about a guy who wanted to grind his ax but he ended up grinding it himself. The other etymology is about a person who wanted to sharpen his ax to kill someone. --60.49.75.182 08:57, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

firmus
If from *dʰer-mo-s, why would it have a long vowel? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 00:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I can find no evidence for the long vowel. Especially since Osthoff's Law precludes it. — JohnC5 01:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Rubber = eavesdrop
Surely a contraction of "rubber-necking"

Celtic plural endings
For Irish,, , /,. For Welsh, the -dd plurals.

Any ideas on where they come from? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 16:28, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * is from the Old Irish vocative/accusative plural ending of the k-stems, e.g., voc./acc.pl. ; , earlier , is from the same thing of the d-stems, e.g. , voc./acc.pl. (not sure where the palatalization of the dh comes from though);  from the same thing when the medial syllable underwent syncope, e.g. , voc./acc.pl.  and , voc./acc.pl. ;  is from the same thing of the n-stems, e.g. , voc./acc.pl. . During Middle and Early Modern Irish these endings were reinterpreted as general plural endings and spread to other words, especially ones in which sound change would have made the plural homophonous with the singular, e.g. , nom./voc./acc.pl. , which would have become singular , plural  by normal sound change, so the  ending was added to it to make it unambiguously plural.
 * Welsh is from the Proto-Celtic nom./acc.pl. of feminine yā- and ī-stems,, and the same form of neuter yo-stems, ;  is from the nom.pl. of i-stems, which was  in Proto-Insular Celtic, from Proto-Celtic  (though our cel-decl-noun-i-mf gives the form as  in PC, but I don't think that can be right). According to ,  comes from an *-es-ī that arose when certain neuter s-stems (whose original plural was in *-esa) became masculines; but the older explanation of  is that  is from any of , ,  or  when the stress was on the antepenult. Frankly, neither of them sounds very convincing to me; I'd say the jury is still out. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What I do find convincing is the argument, going all the way back to Pedersen, that -oedd is from *-esa, the nom./acc.pl. of the neuter s-stems; it's paralleled by the verb form <  (cf. ). Schrijver, however, is unconvinced by both -oedd < *-esa and oedd < *esāt. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:52, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

modality in devil-may-care
What modality does the verb 'may' show in the adjective devil-may-care? --Backinstadiums (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * IMO: possibility, a kind of epistemic modality. DCDuring (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanx for replying. Coincidentally, are you a native speaker, and of what dialect? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I explain it all on my user page. DCDuring (talk) 12:25, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

camwhore
Is there a pun with cumwhore? --Canonicalization (talk) 22:20, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Almost certainly not. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you're being ironic. --Canonicalization (talk) 23:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. And I don't think Metaknowledge was being ironic. --WikiTiki89 17:05, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

ウーパールーパー
RFV of the etymology. Seems to have been taken from the Japanese Wikipedia section which hasn't been sourced either. ばかFumiko￥talk 13:37, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

 * ( —suzukaze (t・c) 13:49, 23 September 2017 (UTC))
 * Which part do you not believe? — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:01, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Separately, I'm curious what the purported source English terms would be. The Daijisen entry at Kotobank claims this is from 🇨🇬 +, but I've never heard of  before, and I'm baffled what the meaning is supposed to be.  Does anyone know?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:24, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I fail to believe that an amphibian could be named after a caterpillar, in the first place. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Several sites say it is from super- + looper, but that is not written in the entry and is irrelevant to this RFV. The date (1985) and source (TV commercial) are clear if you search the TV commercial on YouTube (日清やきそばUFO 1985). — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:39, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Was it first ever used in that very commercial? Could "uupaa" be a cutesy corruption of "super" + "UFO"? Or is it just baby talk like "papa" or "mama"? ばかFumiko￥talk 05:37, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It was the first usage of the word, because they named it so. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm confused -- what caterpillar? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:29, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * A looper, of course. My own take on all of this is that it might be inspired by super-duper, but that it's basically a string of nonsense syllables intended to be vaguely reminiscent of the quasi-taboo original. Come to think of it, h and p are phonemically related, so it might be a fanciful reworking of the original, with the second half supplied by reduplication. It's all guesswork, anyway. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:54, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * FWIW, many webpages say they first meant to name it スーパールーパー but they figured it would take longer to trademark スーパールーパー because of the abundance of other trademarks with "スーパー" so changed it to ウーパールーパー. This book confirms it, but it's by no means a scholarly work and has no citation so I'm not sure if it counts as a reliable source (at least it's better than no source though). Nardog (talk) 09:31, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

διάκονος
Literally, "one who runs through the dust" after his master, as per w:Holy_orders_in_the_Catholic_Church_and_women. Sure? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 08:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No, that's bullshit. I removed it from Wikipedia. Someone has misunderstood as being related to, which it isn't. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:12, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * btw, would you know why the alpha is long? --Barytonesis (talk) 17:53, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I don't. Maybe the PIE root was *Hken-? Or maybe there's an alpha intensivum or alpha copulativum between the δια- and the root? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:27, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

vesicant
vesicant (causing blistering) has an "rfe" tag. Is there any reason not to follow the etymology of vesicle (a blister)? -Stelio (talk) 13:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Pinging, who put that notice there. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 14:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Could be straight from vesica? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 17:42, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, present participle of the verb, indeed related to . --Barytonesis (talk) 17:47, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Super; thank you very much! That's this request resolved. :-) -Stelio (talk) 18:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

not the sharpest knife in the drawer
The suggested source, not the sharpest knife in the draw, is not an English idiom I've ever heard of. Cnilep (talk) 01:31, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I know was using a semi-automated method on these English etymologies, so I suspect this is probably one that went astray. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:16, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:30, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Zettel
Is this etymology saying that Medieval Latin borrowed the term from Italian? (please don't use this "via" syntax, ever). DTLHS (talk) 05:53, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The only way I understand it with my non-native English is MoHG zed(d)el < MiHG zedel(e) < IT cedola < MedLat cedula Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 17:40, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

ser
So the infinitive and future forms of this verb are false cognates? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, the future is a Vulgar Latin creation from *essere habeō based on the other forms with initial s-. It's much more widespread in Romance than the suppletive infinitive that's used in Spanish.KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

What is the preferred way of adding archaic spellings to a page…?
I want to add a line about surde on the page surd. It is part of the title of the 1557 mathematics book famous for first introducing the equals sign, The whetstone of witte, whiche is the seconde parte of Arithmetike: containyng thextraction of Rootes: The Coßike practise, with the rule of Equation: and the woorkes of Surde Nombers. Its modern English counterpart is surd. I also want to make an §English entry on the page surde. I don't want to do these things improperly because I really don't want to rub anyone else the wrong way. Warmest Regards, :)—thecurran Speak your mind my past 03:32, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * On surde you can add an English entry in the normal way with as the definition. You can also put the quote there. DTLHS (talk) 03:35, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

gibbus
Initial voicing is unbelievable. A borrowing? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 16:40, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the "i". I've removed the whole etymology as completely incorrect. I'm sure there are plenty of better explanations out there, but if not, a blatantly wrong one is worse than nothing. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:11, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2017/October

The Central Asian words for “lion”
🇨🇬 ~ 🇨🇬 is the Middle Persian source for many modern words for “lion”, such as 🇨🇬,, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, and 🇨🇬. According to the entry, it is derived from 🇨🇬.

What is the further etymology of this word? Is this related to 🇨🇬? Bailey's Dictionary of Khotan Saka (1979) has:

 * Sogdian of the Buddhist texts šrγω, gen. sing. šrγωy. Sogdian of the Manichean texts šrωγ, Middle Parthian of Turfan šgr, šgr-z‘dg (“cub of lion”). Middle Persian ... Here sarau is from *sarāva- but, since -g- is absent in mura- 'bird' < mr̥ga-, it would be possible to trace sarau to *sargāva- and so to base sar-g-, as for Sogdian and M.Parthian.

Asking since this is related to the etymology of Chinese. , please help. Wyang (talk) 05:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm, *sar-gāva... Something to do with a cow. The initial *sar- could have a meaning "to hurt, kill, injure", cognate with the Sanskrit verb root . So the word could have a meaning "cow-killing"; a lion. This may be fanciful though, as this is complete conjecture. -- mādhavpaṇḍit (talk) 06:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's an Indo-Iranian word (Mayrhofer gives, but I have never seen superscripts on *s like that in modern Indo-Iranian reconstructions; it's definitely Indo-Iranian though) that was borrowed from some Central Asian substrate (maybe , like other substrate borrowings). I could find the following cognates:
 * 🇨🇬 /, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 sīha ~ siṁ(g)ha; in Iranian 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬; non-Indo-Iranian there are 🇨🇬 , 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 (from an expected 🇨🇬; the retention of *s in Iranian is confusing me).
 * See also Witzel's paper. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 17:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made 🇨🇬. It appears to have cognates in Caucasian languages and possibly in Akkadian as well. Martirosyan's paper covers it quite well. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Aryaman, for creating the entry and the useful links! Wyang (talk) 04:20, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

squib
Dictionaries say its origin is unknown, obscure, or imitative, but what squib actually makes "squib"? I think it comes from skip, from scoff, from scop, from shove. A few squ- and sk- words traded spellings between England and the Continent. Lysdexia (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That sounds wrong to me. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 17:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Latin Aesculapius
It obviously ultimately comes from Ancient Greek, but has it passed through Etruscan? Compare it to Asclepius. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:52, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know, but there are lots of dialects without ᾱ→η (early borrowings are from non-Attic dialects), and the u might be epenthesis due to the length of the vowel cluster. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the Greek dialect spoken in Magna Graecia would indeed have kept the ᾱ. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Japanese days of the week
The given etymology for 火曜日 is "Compound of 火曜 (kayō, “Mars”) + 日 (hi, “day”). A calque of Latin dies Martis and its descendants, reinterpreting the day as having been named after the planet Mars (instead of the Roman god)." Except according to Names of the days of the week, it sounds like the Greek name, ἡμέρᾱ Ἄρεως, was older, or at the very least, that the Hellenic astronomers named the days after the planets, which in turn were named after gods. Thus, it was the interpretatio germanica mentioned in the English etymology for Monday which solidified days of the week as being named after deities, while the system's borrowing by Chinese and Japanese scholars solidified it as planetary references. Not the current implication that they were originally named, whether first in Greek or Latin, after the gods directly, and that this was only later reinterpreted by Chinese and Japanese scholars as referring to the planets.

This applies to all seven days of the week, although it's most notable with Tuesday through Saturday, being named after planets, as opposed to the Sun and Moon.

--RoseOfVarda (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make sense to me. How can a Classical Chinese word be a calque of Latin? I think the Japanese etymology needs a look over then, since the word existed in Han script before contact with the West. ? —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 19:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the JA WP article on days of the week (曜日) states that the terminology was imported by Buddhist scholars returning from China in the early (circa late 700s / early 800s CE), with the days of the week explicitly laid out in the diaries of, written in the late 900s / early 1000s CE.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:02, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As Eirikr said, the naming system is directly inherited from the nomenclature for days in a week in Chinese Buddhist texts, which are in turn renderings of terms in Indian astrology/astronomy. Wyang (talk) 08:46, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I trust the origin of the system, in that the Sino-Japanese astronomers learned the naming system from Indian astronomers, who in turn learned it from Greco-Roman astronomers. My first issue is that I suspect the Indian scholars would have heard about ἡμέρᾱ Ἄρεως, not dies Martis, making it a calque of Greek, not Latin. And my second issue is that it sounds like the Greek days were named primarily after the planets, which shared names with gods, and that it was only solidified into theophoric names through interpretario germanica, while the current etymology suggests the opposite, that the Greek days were named primarily after the gods, which shared names with *planets*, and that it was only solidified into planetary names when adopted into Chinese. --RoseOfVarda (talk) 13:14, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems right. Pre-Alexander Sanskrit texts doesn't have words like / .  agrees. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 14:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * So should I go ahead, then, and update the etymologies? I propose something like "Compound of 火曜 (kayō, “Mars”) + 日 (hi, “day”). A calque of Greek ἡμέρᾱ Ἄρεως and its descendants, focusing on the day as having been named after the planet Mars, as opposed to the Roman god. More at Tuesday and Names of the days of the week" --RoseOfVarda (talk) 15:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the intermediate Chinese and Sanskrit /  should be mentioned. I know little about Japanese so I can't say how to correctly format the etymology. ? —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 15:14, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @Aryaman, a couple quick thoughts --
 * Mentioning the calque origins as RoseOfVarda has it worded above makes it sound like the Japanese term was a deliberate calque of the Greek, which would require awareness of Greek by the coiners. I can find no such evidence; it might exist and I just haven't found it yet, but the addition of 日 on the end of a term referencing a day is a normal word-formation process in Japanese.
 * That wording also incorrectly brings in the Greek gods. From my research so far, it seems the concept around 曜 was always about the planets, never the gods.  The underlying ideas were brought to Japan by  and other traveling monks, in works focused on divination based on observations of planetary movements -- astrology, I guess you could call it.  So 火曜 originally referred to “Mars (the planet)”, never “Mars (the god)”.
 * Given the provenance of the order of days (Greece → India → China), it would be incorrect to point users to the 🇨🇬 entry for more information, as that page (appropriately) discusses only the  for the origins -- which is wholly irrelevant for any transmission route that did not go through any of the Germanic cultures. When referring users to the WP page on days of the week, it would be best to link specifically to the section on East Asian tradition.
 * All that said, I've had a go at reworking the etymology at . I think any mention of the Indian terms should go in the  entry instead.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:50, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess we now need Chinese entries, starting from . Interesting that I remember speaking with Chinese people (not very linguistic type) about the origin of Japanese days of the week, they laughed at me when I said they are derived from Chinese. In modern Chinese, they are only perceived as Japanese words (or Korean hanja). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

崑崙
According to this paper, some scholars have related this to Tocharian, but this paper itself seems to be of the position that it isn't. I'm not understanding some parts of it because it cites some Czech sources, which I cannot understand at all. , any thoughts? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:27, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The Czech paper looks interesting, but its formatting and the in-text mixing of Czech and English make it a bit difficult to read. The Tocharian (or Indo-European) theory for this word definitely has a long history, possibly first proposed by Lin Meicun. Some references on this topic are:

 * Li Meicun (1998), “Qilian and Kunlun – The Earliest Tokharian Loan-words in Ancient Chinese”, in: Victor Mair (ed.), The Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia.
 * Ruth Chang (2000), “Understanding Di and Tian: Deity and Heaven from Shang to Tang Dynasties”, Sino-Platonic Papers, 108.
 * Zhou Jixu (2005), “Old Chinese *tees and Proto-Indo-European *deus : similarity in religious ideas and a common source in linguistics”, Sino-Platonic Papers, 167: 1–17.

 * 林梅村．《祁连与昆仑》．《敦煌研究》．1994年第4期．
 * 刘建华．《论山海经所说的赤水、黑水和昆仑》．《中国历史地理论丛》．1994年第4期．
 * 贾雯鹤．《昆仑原型为岷山考》．《四川大学学报（哲学社会科学版）》．2009年第2期．
 * 赵宗福．《论昆仑神话与昆仑文化》．《青海社会科学》．2010年第4期．
 * 王建磊．《“昆仑”释义诸说》．《黑龙江史志》．2015年13期．
 * etc. Wyang (talk) 08:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

rfe: DE Pfund (< PG punda'?) < LA pondus
Shouldn't Pfund come from Latin pondus through (via) Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/pundą like NL pond & SV pund? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 08:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The OHG word displays typical sound changes indicating a PGMc step, but it is possible that such a step could have been omitted and the word was borrowed directly from Latin. The word also appears, however, in Gothic and Old Norse, which makes it plausible that there was indeed a Pgmc word from which OHG inherited it from. They're all invariably neuter. Leasnam (talk) 17:37, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've updated the etymology at Leasnam (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Isn’t it confusing however to write “early borrowing” in this matter? Early to what? As I think it, the borrowing can only be late, in so far as it can only have been borrowed after the First Germanic Sound Shift (maybe to the already separated individual Germanic languages, maybe not, but independent of this I do not see what “early” is supposed to mean). Palaestrator verborum (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I generally use the word "early borrowing" when borrowings from that language were rather common in a later period, but this one predates that period. --WikiTiki89 19:05, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @Wikitiki89, Yes, that is what I see "early borrowing" here to mean as well (i.e. it refers to the German language, and not to PGmc). But is it necessary to have ? If it's confusing, we can simply remove it Leasnam (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

膥
RFV of the etymology. From 脧. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * here is a discussion of this word.--2001:DA8:201:3516:657E:889E:6EF:BCE9 08:48, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look convincing. I agree with the third response, which has pointed out that 脧 is unlikely. It's a two-fold problem:
 * It is phonologically implausible. 脧 (肉夋, meaning 赤子陰) is given the fanqie 子回切/祖回切, which would not give ceon1 in Cantonese or chhûn in Hakka. The zeon1 reading comes from the unrelated 朘 (月夋).
 * It is semantically implausible. 膥/春 refers to "egg" in all dialects that have this morpheme, and has extended its meaning to "testicle" (shaped like an egg) in Cantonese. This is parallel to 卵 (egg > testicle). This means that 脧 would not be its 本字, since its original meaning is "child's genitalia". (Whether 膥 is related to 卵 is debatable. We need some more evidence.) — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

"denki" from Chinese
Is really from the English translation of Chinese, as this blog entry explains? POKéTalker (talk) 09:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * English has nothing to do with it, as the blog says. The etymology is confirmed: [//www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jeiken1964/1967/76/1967_76_8/_article/-char/ja/]. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * WTF is the English translation of Chinese ? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:29, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Pardon my wrong choice of words. It's actually "from Chinese diànqì with the meaning of electricty". Appears that the word is imported to Japan. POKéTalker (talk) 10:26, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is another source. This one. BTW, talking of Wasei-Kango, 『汉语外来词词典』is useful.--Yoshiciv (talk) 13:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting link, thank you @Yoshiciv.
 * The linked paper is by one Yutaka Fujita, published May 14, 1967 by the Historical Society of English Studies in Japan. Fujita's research suggests that the first mention in Japanese of the term was in a work published in 1851 by  , wherein Kawamoto mentions that he was following the Chinese translation convention of rendering 🇨🇬 as .  Fujita had no information on precisely what Chinese sources Kawamoto may have been reading, but he does note that there was a lot of Chinese reference material being imported into Japan during the period from 1800 through 1850.
 * My skills at bibliographical citation formatting are rather shaky, so I will forgo adding this to the 🇨🇬 entry at the present. If anyone else has the skills and desire, please have a go at it.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

sora
Webster's says fist use 1705, origin unknown. I wonder if there has been some further investigation of this. Such a common bird, and word, strange that it should still lack an etymology.-Sonofcawdrey (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

 * sora is believed to have come from a Native American language. The identity of the language is not known. —Stephen (Talk) 14:32, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks, for that. But I was wondering if or hoping that there might be some suggestion as to which language - presumably an eastern one, given the date the word enters English. But, I'm pretty ignorant about Native American languages, perhaps some of the eastern languages were never well recorded (similar to the paucity of information about the Sydney Language, or the Tasmanian Indigenous languages).-Sonofcawdrey (talk) 11:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It certainly doesn't sound like a typical Eastern Algonquian loanword, as they tend to be longer and full of velar consonants (compare Appendix:English terms of Native North American origin). But of course there are exceptions to any generalization. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Correcting anonymous edits, mostly RFV
If anyone has time, you can guide/help me correct some etymology entries that were done before my registration:

 * -- done.
 * (atama) -- done.
 * -- done.
 * (already done?)
 * (already done?)
 * (readings separated; RFV "kaburi" and "kamuri")
 * -- done.
 * -- done.
 * (last edit contains likely cognate )
 * (RFV "sarusuberi"; already done?)
 * (already done?)
 * (mostly done)
 * (separated terms, RFV)
 * (etymology "from the rice paddy" from Takara-shuzō site)
 * (tatsu)
 * (added tsumuji; already done? probably not from a compound)
 * -- done.
 * (half-done)
 * , (both half-done)
 * (half-done, compound from Middle Chinese?)
 * (almost done?)
 * (added tsumuji; already done? probably not from a compound)
 * -- done.
 * (half-done)
 * , (both half-done)
 * (half-done, compound from Middle Chinese?)
 * (almost done?)
 * -- done.
 * (half-done)
 * , (both half-done)
 * (half-done, compound from Middle Chinese?)
 * (almost done?)
 * (almost done?)
 * (almost done?)
 * (almost done?)
 * (almost done?)

Tall order, but that's the extent of my past edits. You can reply directly below the entry for simplicity. POKéTalker (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thank you POKéTalker for compiling this list, this is very helpful. If it's all right with you, I'll strike out the listings above as I rework them (such as for  above).  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:53, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

translations of tax haven
I wonder why so many languages use the word "paradise". Have they all mistaken "haven" for "heaven"? --Barytonesis (talk) 23:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I asked this very same question over a year ago. No answer that explains the apparent calquing. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * → See the etymology section of fr:paradis fiscal with references. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Far from all translations have "paradise" or similar. There are also other variants, even if "paradise" exists and some are neutral or follow the English usage. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It is wrong in the first place to presume that the designations in other languages are calques. Have the English been the first in tax evasion? Of course not, tax evasion is natural to man and non-English states have also levied higher taxes than the Anglo-Saxon speaking ones. Thus, the English term is the one which goes aloof. One may assume that the English have chosen the concept of a haven because they are a people which has dominated by seafaring more than any other. While other peoples have chosen an opposite direction by calling the the tax haven a tax oasis, like the largely land-bound Russians and Germans. Conversely, nations for whom an oasis is something mundane, as the Arabs and Hebrews, have called the place without any slanted metaphor “refuge”. Palaestrator verborum (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you're reading too much into this... —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:07, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Nobody is saying the English have been the first to practise tax evasion; they still might have been the first to coin a word for it. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:10, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * If we rely on Google Ngram, the Germans have started to use the word “Steueroase” in about 1920, while the Anglo-Saxons in about the 1940s. A Google Books search confirms this: From 1920 the word “Steueroase” appears, while earlier matches are misreadings for “Steuerkasse” written in Fraktur. The word “Steuerparadies” appears from 1929. English matches for “tax haven” start to appear in the later 1930s (earlier matches are for misdated volumes). So, the coinages are independent. Palaestrator verborum (talk) 12:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I can't see any evidence that "tax paradise" is a calque on English "tax haven" mistook as "tax heaven". Both metaphor word, it is a "haven" in that it is a safe place to keep money from the taxman; and it is a "paradise" because it is like a heavenly place where everything is great (tax-wise, that is). I imagine they are independent. The mistaken calque theory cannot survive the cutting edge of Occam's Razor, IMHO.-Sonofcawdrey (talk) 11:07, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * A decade ago there were quite a few Japanese who were talking about “tax heaven” and I suppose this kind of misunderstanding must have been common also in any other non-English-speaking countries, considering the frequency difference between heaven and haven in English. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:52, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Very interesting. In that case the Japanese English tax heaven is mostly likely to indeed be a mistaken calque; but the same doesn't hold true for the term 'tax paradise' in a non-English language, that involves yet a further step.-Sonofcawdrey (talk) 09:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In this case, the French paradis is rather a translation of heaven than paradise. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I just found a cite for belasting-paradijs (old form of ) from December 1920: "De fiscus vraagt ons méer-dan-zes-maal-zooveel als in dat lang-vervlogen voorjaar van 1914, toen we óok al allemaal klaagden over de hooge belastingen... zonder te begrijpen, dat wij in een belasting-paradijs leerden! (sic)" I have yet to find an instance of tax haven that predates it. So it is apparently not a calque from English, even though the article is from an English correspondent. Also see what Palaestrator verborum wrote above for German. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Did it mean a tax haven then? — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It is a little hard to tell because the text is hyperbolic, but it does mean something like "low-tax utopia" and the similarity in meaning is clear when it is translated as "tax haven". The translation is: "The tax service asks from us more than six times as much as in that long bygone spring of 1914, when we all complained about the high taxes as well... without understanding that we lived in a tax haven!" It was also used for municipalities with low taxes in the 1930s and 1940s. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The German Word
According to the entry itself, the German word is derived from Greek through Latin, but according to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/pullaz, it's derived from Proto-Germanic. Is there an additional sense that isn't listed of the word, or is something just wrong there? Esszet (talk) 15:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's unlikely to be from Proto-Germanic. First of all, the semantics are wonky. Second, even accepting it as a dialect borrowing from Low German (to explain the lack of p > pf), the long vowel is hard to explain away. Surely if had been borrowed into German, it would be  or, not . (de-wikt does list a , but it's a back-formation from  and has nothing to do with this word.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

George
Was this borrowed straight from Latin into modern English, or did it exist in older English already? How far back was it inherited? —Rua (mew) 18:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Without doing any research whatsoever, I assume English got it from French in about 1066. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The name was rare in England until German-born George I, but had been around since the time of the Crusades...so it actually is from French Leasnam (talk) 19:40, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Was it? Wikipedia says "By the 14th century, [Saint George] had been declared both the patron saint [of England] and the protector of the royal family", so you'd think people would be naming their sons after him. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You'd think, but somehow they must not have liked the name all that much Leasnam (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

pappardelle
Would an Italian speaker clarify where the -delle part of the word comes from? Is it from 🇨🇬, ? Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think it comes from these contractions. Treccani says it's "der. di pappare, di formazione non ben chiarita" [derived from pappare, of unclear formation]. --Barytonesis (talk) 17:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, in that case I'll leave the etymology as it currently stands. Thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 01:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Suikerfeest (Dutch for Eid al-Fitr)
Does anybody have any ideas why the Dutch is apparently a mistranslated calque (if it is a calque at all; Jacob Israël de Haan instead states that it refers to a custom of giving sweet treats)? The word first appears in newspapers around 1910. There is also an alternative explanation that it derives from Turkish. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:08, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's probably a calque of one of the other names, like . —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:20, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That's what it says on Dutch Wikipedia, which I'm surprised nobody thought to check. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:15, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I had checked it, but it was unsourced and the Trouw article contained the same information with a source. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

gas
In your opinion, which of the two etymologies is more likely: χάος or native to Dutch? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:29, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

అగపడు
Seems somewhat excessive. DTLHS (talk) 06:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Chackoony was rather given to that. If you feel like cleaning up his etymologies, I reckon the right way to go about it would be to put his cognates for comparison in autocollapsed tables. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:10, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I removed most of the cognates from that entry, since it's a compound and the cognates really belong at the pages of components. It appears Chackoony just took the cognates from Burrow's A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

ragmatical
Etymology? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:52, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Template:PIE word
I understand the point of (they connect the derivation networks between various PIE and post-PIE terms), but this seems unnecessary. It seems to be just duplicating the work that Descendant sections already do. It's also unnecessarily privileging PIE; it's not as of we have "Category:LANG terms derived from Latin word XYZIUM" or anything of the sort. --Tropylium (talk) 13:12, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

,
The etymology section for, derives the term from Uyghur and Persian. I wonder if the sound change is regular, because there are also such forms as 🇨🇬 and Manichaean 🇨🇬 in older Iranian languages. --Z 15:57, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry I missed this ping for some reason.
 * The use of the character 饢 for this sense is fairly recent; it was not in the comprehensive  or other traditional Chinese dictionaries. It is likely no earlier than 1-2 centuries ago- I couldn't find any attestations in this sense prior to that, so the current etymology is probably correct in saying that it was borrowed from contact with the Uyghur people.
 * 饢 is pronounced in the modern Ürümqi dialect of Mandarin, but there is confusion of the  and  codas in the Xinjiang dialect of Chinese in general (ref), which may explain the náng - naan match.
 * P.S. I accidentally found this discussion on the etymology of naan and other Central Asian 'bread' terms on Language Log, which I find rather interesting. Wyang (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

According to Oxford Dictionaries Online, is "[f]rom Hindi (originally denoting a council consisting of five members), from Sanskrit panca ‘five’ + āyatta ‘depending upon’". I figured out the first element is 🇨🇬, a variant of, from 🇨🇬, but what are the Hindi and Sanskrit words for the second element? Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:23, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * . But the compound appears not to be Sanskrit; at least, Monier-Williams has no entry for a that I can find. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Is there a Hindi word corresponding to, do you know? — SGconlaw (talk) 01:57, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Why did no one ping a native Hindi speaker lol? It's one Hindi word, . See Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary for more. is a now seemingly unproductive Hindi suffix, but a possibly Sanskrit source is 🇨🇬 (but I doubt it). It's definitely not a compound, it's a post-Sanskrit creation. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 02:09, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. So you're saying it is not a good idea to indicate that the second element is "from, from ", and that we should just say it is directly from the latter Sanskrit word? — SGconlaw (talk) 02:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That Sanskrit word has no relation to the Hindi morpheme. The expected outcome of the Sanskrit would be (compensatory lengthening), and AFAIK no such term exists. The morpheme cannot be reliably traced to Sanskrit. IMO something like "borrowed from, a derivative of " would be sufficient. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 19:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 22:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

vegetable (brain-dead person)
Any semantic connection to ? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 14:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * vegetable, n.
 * 2. fig. A person likened to a plant, spec. (a) one who leads an uneventful or monotonous life, without intellectual or social activity;  (b) (in later use) one who is incapable of normal mental or physical activity, esp. as a result of brain damage. Cf. vegetable adj. 5.
 * 1641  Naunton's Fragmenta Regalia sig. D4v   He was a meere vegetable of the Court that sprung up at night and sunke againe at his noone.
 * 1980  B. Castle Castle Diaries 242   I hope and pray she will die with dignity and not be reduced by a stroke into a vegetable.
 * vegetative, adj. and n.''
 * A. adj.
 * 1.
 * a. In certain philosophical and theological systems: designating the soul, or that part of the soul, which is associated with the most basic functions of life (growth, development, reproduction) as distinguished from sensation and reason; having such a soul. Cf. vegetable adj. 1. Now chiefly hist.
 * The vegetative soul was considered by Aristotle to be present in all living things and was distinguished from the sensitive soul, present in animals, including humans, and the intellective soul, present in humans alone.
 * †b. That grows and develops; living and growing as a plant; = vegetable adj. 2a. Obs.
 * 2. Promoting or inducing the growth of plants.
 * †3. Designating one of the several varieties of the philosophers' stone; cf. vegetable stone n. at vegetable adj. Special uses 2. Obs.
 * 4.
 * a. Of, relating to, connected with, or characterized by the process of growth. In early use esp. of a power, faculty, or principle.
 * b. Designating the most basic type of life, associated with the vegetative soul or (esp. in later use) with plants. Also: comprising vegetation (vegetation n. 7).
 * 5. Consisting of or derived from vegetables or plants.
 * 6. Designating the division of the natural world to which plants (and in early use all non-animal living organisms) belong; = vegetable adj. 3.
 * 7.
 * a. fig. Monotonous, dull; inactive, unchallenging.
 * 1789..
 * 1998...
 * b. Chiefly Med. Characterized by visceral functions only; having autonomic nervous function only; esp. lacking consciousness, cognitive function, and voluntary movement.
 * persistent vegetative state: see the first element.
 * 1803  R. Kerrison tr. A. Richerand Elements Physiol. 40   If the great sympathetic nerves exist in all animals that have a distinct nervous system, do they not peculiarly contain the principle of this vegetative life [Fr. le principe de cette vie végétative], essential to the existence of every organized being, and to which belong the phenomena of digestion, absorption, the circulation, secretions, and of nutrition?
 * 1836  Boston Med. & Surg. Jrnl. 6 July 346   The fœtus appears to be in a vegetative state.
 * 1893  Daily News 25 Apr. 5/4   He is in what his doctor calls a vegetative state, and incapable of connecting two ideas together.
 * 1986  Washington Post 31 Dec. a6/3   I had one patient who became vegetative during the study. Absolutely a vegetable, a mute.
 * 8.
 * a. Chiefly Bot. Relating to or concerned with growth and development, rather than sexual reproduction. Cf. somatic adj. 1c.
 * See also vegetative cell n.
 * b. Chiefly Bot. Designating reproduction or propagation achieved by asexual means, which in plants may occur naturally (by rhizomes, runners, bulbs, etc.) or artificially (by grafting, layering, or taking cuttings).
 * c. Biol. Designating a stage in the replication of a virus at which non-infective viral components are synthesized and assembled within the host cell; of or relating to this stage.
 * B. n.
 * 1. An organism capable of growth and development but devoid of sensation and thought; spec. a plant (esp. as contrasted with an animal or human being). Now rare.
 * 1668  Earl of Clarendon Ess. in Tracts (1727) 93   We live rather the Life of Vegetatives or Sensitives..than the lives of reasonable men.
 * 1712  E. Cooke Voy. S. Sea 210   Having run over the living Creatures and Vegetatives.
 * 1764  in 10th Rep. Royal Comm. Hist. MSS (1885) App. i. 372   We are vegetatives formed by education.
 * †2. In pl. The faculties or powers associated with the vegetable soul. Obs. rare.
 * .... Lysdexia (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * 8.
 * a. Chiefly Bot. Relating to or concerned with growth and development, rather than sexual reproduction. Cf. somatic adj. 1c.
 * See also vegetative cell n.
 * b. Chiefly Bot. Designating reproduction or propagation achieved by asexual means, which in plants may occur naturally (by rhizomes, runners, bulbs, etc.) or artificially (by grafting, layering, or taking cuttings).
 * c. Biol. Designating a stage in the replication of a virus at which non-infective viral components are synthesized and assembled within the host cell; of or relating to this stage.
 * B. n.
 * 1. An organism capable of growth and development but devoid of sensation and thought; spec. a plant (esp. as contrasted with an animal or human being). Now rare.
 * 1668  Earl of Clarendon Ess. in Tracts (1727) 93   We live rather the Life of Vegetatives or Sensitives..than the lives of reasonable men.
 * 1712  E. Cooke Voy. S. Sea 210   Having run over the living Creatures and Vegetatives.
 * 1764  in 10th Rep. Royal Comm. Hist. MSS (1885) App. i. 372   We are vegetatives formed by education.
 * †2. In pl. The faculties or powers associated with the vegetable soul. Obs. rare.
 * .... Lysdexia (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * 1712  E. Cooke Voy. S. Sea 210   Having run over the living Creatures and Vegetatives.
 * 1764  in 10th Rep. Royal Comm. Hist. MSS (1885) App. i. 372   We are vegetatives formed by education.
 * †2. In pl. The faculties or powers associated with the vegetable soul. Obs. rare.
 * .... Lysdexia (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * .... Lysdexia (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

cook < fire < fa[ther]
or pekʷ- < péh₂wr̥ < peh₂- Lysdexia (talk) 19:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Homophonous roots exist, you know? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 23:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

From the personal name of Serbian philologist and linguist + , but where does the -v- come from? Can anyone improve the etymology? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Probably the same place as the v’s of and . —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:40, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I made a guess that it is "[p]robably an of  by the addition of the  ". Does that sound plausible? — SGconlaw (talk) 10:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. After I wrote the above it occurred to me that even if the v is the same as in Shavian and Peruvian, why should the o be there? I'd expect simply "Vukian". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, great. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Presumably it should be (singular) rather than  (plural); I’ll change the entry correspondingly. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 05:25, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! — SGconlaw (talk) 06:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

международный
Probably a calque from international. Can someone confirm or infirm my hunch? --Barytonesis (talk) 08:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The ARj says the equivalent Serbo-Croatian word is calqued from Latin ; it would be reasonable to suppose the same is true of the Russian as well. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Most likely the calque is of Latin origin, not English. English loanwords are mostly relatively new in Russian. Having a hinch is not always great, though without a source. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * in this specific case though, is itself a calque, a Neo-Latin term not found in Ancient texts; the first language to have coined it is English, apparently. With a Wanderwort like this it will probably be difficult to find the exact route. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

What's your problem about calques ? Languages evolve through calques and other tricks !!!
 * I don't have a problem with calques. I like them very much, in fact. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

“”
From a Confucius story in the Book of Rites. --1.32.71.192 04:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

skyscraper
Date of coinage, anyone? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The earliest uses recorded in the OED (2nd edition) are from 1788, referring to a high-standing racehorse; the OED also notes that ‘a horse named Skyscraper, sired by Highflyer, won the Epsom Derby in 1789’. Shortly thereafter, other uses start appearing: a triangular skysail in 1794, a tall hat in 1800, a tall tale in 1841, a tall person in 1857, a ball hit high in baseball in 1866, and finally a tall building in 1883. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Didn't know it had such a history. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

mansplain
Is it a back-formation from ? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

MENTEL Breton substantive meaning BALANCE
I really don't understand why my etymology is not accepted at least as a beginning of explanation. I gave the explainations you need for the evolution of the meaning. Check Breton, Welsh and Irish for being convinced.

 * It's formatted horribly. First of all, etyma are never writtten with all caps in Wiktionary. Two, "Gaulic" is not a name we use here + there were several spelling mistakes, and most importantly, your explanation's wild assumptions do not align with any sources. Also I cannot find your supposed Irish cognate, while for the Welsh cognate (???) the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru has no idea where it comes from. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:18, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Germanic words for "to go"
Got a few questions.

 * Is the Old Norse intermediary of the North Germanic descendants of attested at all? The verb listed there seems to mean "heed"...
 * The ijj-stem is only attested in Old English and Gothic, where they are taped to different verbs entirely: OE to, and Gothic to . For what rationale would the ijj-stem be considered to be the past of in the proto-language proper instead of the daughter suppletions doing it independently?

Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

veganic
The entries veganic (veganic = blend of vegan + organic) and -ic (veganic = vegan + -ic) are contradicting. Which etymology is correct? -80.133.109.51 09:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi, could a Hebrew speaker provide the Hebrew word for (and perhaps add it to  as well)? Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:54, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! will be Word of the Day on 25 October 2017. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:10, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

vicious circle
Would anyone know which language this expression came from? The Russian entry says it's a calque from Latin, but I'm not entirely convinced. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * There is to ponder as well. What's not convincing about the Latin? —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 12:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Italian città
Could someone tell me why is giving out a ? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Old Italian was merged into Italian in the past, so it essentially says that it inherited the term from itself. —Rua (mew) 18:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I see, but why does work then? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Good question. —Rua (mew) 18:38, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

lvalue and rvalue
These entries currently say these programming terms come from "left" and "right", referring to the left and right side of an assignment (for instance, c, where c is a lvalue and c is an rvalue), but there are a fair number of Google results mentioning "location value" and "register value" as the origin. (Search lvalue "location value" or rvalue "register value", or see this article for an example.) That sounds plausible to me, but I wouldn't know how to verify it. — Eru·tuon 08:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * , the first mention of lvalue and rvalue in computer science that I can find using Google Scholar is this 1969 article about BCPL: "Each storage cell holds a binary bit pattern called an Rvalue (or Right hand value) […] As previously stated each storage cell is labelled by an integer; this integer is called the Lvalue (or Left hand value) of the cell. […] The terms Lvalue and Rvalue derive from consideration of the assignment command and were first used by Strachey in the CPL reference manual." So "left" and "right" seems to be the original etymology, while "location value" and "register value" are, IMHO, backronyms. Tetromino (talk) 10:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Finnish valtameri
It says compound from valta+meri, which is plausible, but I wonder if it's a modern re-analysis, and originally is just a German loan from Weltmeer (i.e. world sea)?--Flammie (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it a calque? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The semantics are the least plausible part of the existing derivation. At any rate, I would think it probably wouldn't be (Modern High) German, but older Low German. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * A rather than a calque? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *deupaz
PGmc hints at PIE *dʰewbos, which would be a regular thematic adjective, and not *dʰéwbus, which is a Caland adjective (with the expected parallel formations *dʰubrós and *dʰubnós in other daughter languages). What is the reason for assuming *deupaz came from a u-stem? --EstendorLin (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Wackernagel's law? --2A02:2788:A4:F44:1D0A:BECC:8CAD:7152 22:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a law about clitics. I see no clitic. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 03:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Stuck an RFD to the PIE entry. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 17:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, Balto-Slavic languages do attest the u-stem, so it should not be deleted. *dʰéubus seems to fit perfectly into the Caland system of the root *dʰeub-. All I'm trying to say is, Germanic seems to attest an o-stem adjective that is not currently listed anywhere, but since I'm not an expert, I wanted to consult other users before making any modifications. --EstendorLin (talk) 20:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Per Kroonen, is by Kluge's law from  < . --Tropylium (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Spanish bacán
Is this etymology plausible? This is apparently the only Spanish term derived from Ligurian. DTLHS (talk) 07:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-ьnъ
Doesn't it need cleanup? Only the South Slavic descendants seem to be a direct match, or the of a Russian short form like. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It looks fine to me. —Rua (mew) 11:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * To me too. The East and West Slavic descendants are from the definite declension, but they're still descendants. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd prefer we give the short forms endings for all the daughter languages, even if we don't lemmatise at the short forms for East Slavic and West Slavic. It's slightly confusing otherwise. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Do short forms even exist in all modern Slavic languages? —Rua (mew) 13:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/-ós
Cited in the entry as O-grade, but its examples are zero-grade... Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 12:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

English "blackball"
I found a reference to "blackball" relating to trolley/streetcar/tram service from 1949, though it apparently was used in the 1910s, referring to cars that permitted African-Americans, who were banned from all other cars: https://web.archive.org/web/20070107050327/http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r3/richmond/railway.htm This fits with the standard definition. Am I justified in adding it?

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2017/November

賧
Seems that this Chinese lemma has 2 different etymologies, and they may be out of Sinitic. It must be interesting. Dokurrat (talk) 12:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Now there are three, I've yet to see any sources with the sense "river" listed. Chinese sources mainly point sense 3 to Tai (i.e. southwetsern Tai) languages. STEDT database which is only for ST languages, yields a few interesting but highly doubtful results such as "tan³ > tat³" in Northern Chin. Also, I have a gut feeling that senses 1 and 3 are related due to the semantical similarities. However, ancient Chinese sources (説文解字) ambiguously point sense 1 to "languages of minority ethnicities (夷人)" and recent sources more substantially point sense 3 to Tai languages. Could just be a matter of obscurity due to the low occurrence of the word and general lack of research. Cattusalbus (talk) 10:50, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

What in the Sam Hill, expression.
I'm thinking that the expression may come from the Celtic name for Halloween, which is Samhain. To Whit: What in the Samhain.

 * I think you're mispronouncing that word. It doesn't actually sound like "Sam Hill" and there's no /h/ sound. Listen to our audio clip in the entry. Equinox ◑ 20:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Im familiar with it, but uncertain as to origin. Seems maybe a minced oath form of hell, but that doesn't explain the "sam" part. See also the expressions with "tarnation", as the culture seems the same - Oakie Americana.-Booksnarky (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

आड़ू, آڑو, ਆੜੂ, and آڙو
These four words all mean peach and are all pronounced āṛū. Obviously, there is most likely a relation between these words, but I can't find any reliable sources on their etymology, or any sources at all, for that matter. Does anyone have more information on the subject? Aamri2 (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A hypothetical 🇨🇬 has been reconstructed by the Indologist . See Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages for more cognates. Apparently, it may be an Iranian borrowing. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 19:29, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That dictionary will come in handy, once I can make more sense of it. As well, thank you for making the edits to the pages. Aamri2 (talk) 23:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

allotriomorph
Right now it's missing an etymology. I'm 99% sure it's just taken from +. Can I add it? --2601:246:C602:67B3:F520:5E6A:3B4B:E98E 21:41, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, go ahead. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:43, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Polish suka
The etymology section says this is inherited from, but it can't be, can it? Wouldn't the inherited term have to be or ? If so, then suka must be borrowed from some other Slavic language (almost any other Slavic language besides Slovene), right? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:38, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's well spotted, you're probably right. —Rua (mew) 14:39, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I had forgotten that I had already asked this at Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/sǫka almost 2 years ago. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:41, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about Kashubian and Polabian; can and  be inherited? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:44, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Vladimir Orel has a book on Albanian etymologies listed on-line where he mentiones shakë (bitch, female dog) as a borrowing from a scythian dialect, cognate with ir.*spaka (< rus.sobaka). Gives three cognates: Pers.sak, N.Pers.säg, Tadjic sag, etc.

I think the term is inherited in Albanian, not borrowed. For an iranian *spaka is easy to imagine an original proto-form *svaka. See these exemples and many others: Av. spā (dog) and sanscrit śván (dog, houn), Av. aspa (horse; kurd hesp, esp) and Sanscrit अश्व (áśva, horse < IE *h₁éḱwos). Sanscrict stays faithful to /v/ from IE *w, but for avestan and other iranian dialects *v becomes /b/ or /p/. In my grammatical book is called 'betacisation', I don't know how is called in English. *soka must be a parallel form for satem dialects, from IE *ḱwóns (dog, hound), whitout *w.

Why I think shakë is inherited in Albanian and not borrowed? First of all, they have a cognate, samë (dog excrement). Secondly, Albanian, and probably thracian also, eliminates the glide *w from it's inherited lexicon (ex: alb.derë, sl.*dvь̃rь = eng. door) and it fits their specific transformations. Alternation between /s/ and /sh/ is rare but not uncommon. An example I remember is shutë (female deer), variable for the correct and etymological form sutë. I'm referring to /s/ that, in it's inherited vocabulary, comes from two older affricates, [t͡ʃ] and [ts], both representing either IE  *k' or a specific suffix, -tja. Albanian has some complicated rules of transformation.

https://sq.wiktionary.org/wiki/shakë https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/samë above page 408, but it's not a great copy: https://www.scribd.com/doc/117854777/Vladimir-Orel-Albanian-Etymological-Dictionary

There is also a bad spirit in Romanian called Samca (var.Sanca), rarely represented with the appearance of a huge dog, but not always. It is considered a slavic borrowing.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samca

Sorin5780 (talk) 11:35, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

German Ausdruck
could it be a calque from expression/espressione in a romance language. thank you. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:401C:A4FB:C091:D24A 18:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've always assumed it is, yes. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Albanian ashkë
Not to open up another one of these topics again, but how reliable is the work of Vladimir Orel in general, since he's used as a citation for many etymologies in Albanian entries, many of which other users and I believe are dubious? From what I've read, a fair amount of his work is controversial; he was prolific and apparently did work on quite a wide variety of languages, even attempting to write on the topic of Nostratic, but his main interest was Balto-Slavic languages and some other IE families.

Anyway, my main question was about this specific entry for now. Most other sources, including etymological dictionaries for Romance languages themselves, have this as a descendant of Latin. It undergoes the appropriate sound shifts into Albanian and corresponds exactly to the meaning found in all other Romance derivatives.. i.e. that of tinder/touchwood; actually means mushroom used as tinder, which is found in Romanian  as well. And we can see the likely semantic shift from what in Latin was originally "food" or "bait" to this meaning. The coincidence is too much for it to be separately derived from a completely different root in Indo-European, in this case allegedly the root of 'axis'. I feel like this linguist was a little too determined to find direct Indo-European roots for many Albanian terms, often putting out erroneous etymologies. But I think that as soon as I modify that etymology, some Albanian nationalist will come and revert it or add more spurious sources. Word dewd544 (talk) 18:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * ? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:08, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I have cleaned up, and . --Vahag (talk) 19:14, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes more sense. I had a suspicion that the two words may have actually been different as well. I meant to mainly talk about then (which certainly does correspond to Lat.  and is the form most of the dictionaries I saw referred to), but  had a slightly inaccurate or misleading definition on here, which threw me off. Thanks. Word dewd544 (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can add to this that there is a town in Croatia called Jaska. Now, some things remain unclear, e.g. the Croatian Language Portal merely states that it is an old name for Jastrebarsko, a bigger near town. I know for a fact that these are separate, however, Jastrebarsko contains (hawk; falcon), but etymologically speaking,  is much more appropriate for said meaning. --FeliSoul (talk) 14:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

grossus
I can't seem to semantically derive Sense 3 from senses 1 and 2. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 03:11, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've read somewhere that the Medieval Latin word was influenced by German and this is where the meanings "thick, great", etc. come from. Not sure how true that is, but it seems to make sense. Leasnam (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

bartender
The etymology conflicts with the example given on Template:compound. The one on the page is +, but the one on the template page is  +  +  and specifically says that it's not bar + tender. Globins (talk) 05:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * added that line to the template documentation back in 2014: . Personally, I prefer + . BigDom 14:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry about this, and thanks for contacting me; fixed!
 * This was due to a too-strict reading of https://www.etymonline.com/word/bartender "from bar (n.2) + agent noun of tend (v.2)", which implies no intermediate form. As one can see from https://www.etymonline.com/word/tender the agent noun was in use, and thus it should be  + . This affected 3 pages (also ), all fixed now:
 * Special:Diff/24606787 (Special:Diff/39065683)
 * Special:Diff/24606730 (Special:Diff/48122446)
 * Special:Diff/24183423 (Special:Diff/48122451)
 * —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 14:28, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

bạc
The entry gives a theory that this Vietnamese word comes form Chinese 鉑. Is that possible? I see various Chu Nom forms given; does this imply that “bạc” may be attested quite early? As for 鉑 as platinum in Chinese, can it be attested in pre-modern times? . Dokurrat (talk) 13:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I suspect the sense arose from the separate two-character term, of which this  glyph is simply a kind of combination or abbreviation.  For a discussion on the etymology for 🇨🇬, see Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup.  It seems the  sense may be relatively recent, from the mid-1800s.
 * , do you have anything to add here? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think VN bạc is from Chinese 鉑 as the time frames do not match. This is quite complicated. There are a number of words:
 * 🇨🇬 < ; and
 * General MK *prak ("silver") ~.
 * 🇨🇬 < ; and
 * General MK *prak ("silver") ~.

 * 🇨🇬 is unlikely to be from #1 and #2. IMO #4 is the most likely. Mark Alves is of the opinion that 🇨🇬 is from, paralleling 🇨🇬 ← . Wyang (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

𢀖
RFV of the etymology (glyph origin). Dokurrat (talk) 14:01, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

"Lua error: French is not an ancestor of Haitian Creole"
I tried to use at  and I got this error. Is this an oversight or intentional? I wouldn't consider it borrowed. Ultimateria (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The way that creoles, pidgins, and mixed languages form is not conducive to our current system. Haitian Creole is not exactly a descendant of French, because if you just let French evolve, you wouldn't get a creole. But by no means is it a borrowing, either. This is one of many cases where there is no template more appropriate to use than . —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:07, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. Pidgins and creoles neither exactly borrow nor exactly inherit vocabulary from their lexifier languages, so der is really the only template appropriate in most cases. That said, however, it is possible for a creole to borrow words from other languages, including their lexifier language, for example technical terms and other learnèd vocabulary. In fact, I suspect that is a loanword from French (i.e. it was deliberately taken from French rather than belonging to the everyday vocabulary of the first Haitian Creole speakers), just as  itself is indeed a loanword from Medieval, and not an inheritance. I suppose it's also possible for a creole to inherit words from the pidgin that it evolved from, but I don't know whether we have separate codes for any pidgin/creole pairs in a mother/daughter relationship. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I would consider all terms in a pidgin borrowed. They do come from another language, after all. The difference is that the borrowing is what creates this new language. The speakers of the pidgin fall back to their native languages for terms, which are then used by others and thus enter the pidgin. —Rua (mew) 19:52, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Proto-Slavic/sъcati vs. Proto-Slavic/sьcati
Should Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/sъcati be deleted or redirected to Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/sьcati? I find the latter in multiple sources but not the former. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds like reasonable grounds for deleting, esp. when the entry was created by a drive-by anon. --Tropylium (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * And the reason itself why the entry is wrong is particularly that only with ь the progressive palatalization rule can have the effect of making a ⟨с⟩ out of a ⟨k⟩, not with ъ. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 00:22, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made the redirect and used attention to draw attention to differences between the two pages' descendants lists. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

文胸
RFV of the etymology. Dokurrat (talk) 05:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Deleted. Wyang (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

TLFi etymologies
I've run into a few entries on the mostly authoritative Tresor de la Langue Francaise Informatisee dictionary that had some puzzling information in the etymology sections. Like for, where it lists it as a borrowing from Latin (we have it as Vulgar Latin  here)... whereas the related  is not indicated as a borrowing. There were about a dozen or so other entries among the hundreds I've been through that also had some confusing information in the etymologies, mostly concerning seemingly popular words that they described as borrowed, like how was supposedly borrowed (empr.) from Vulgar Latin, and they don't really delve into more of an explanation why they think it's a borrowing exactly. And borrowing from an unattested Vulgar Latin term is a bit odd in of itself. Does anyone know why they may be listed as such?

I can't remember the other examples off the top of my head right now, but in those cases I ended up mentioning in the etymology sections here that they may have been borrowed (according to the TLFi)... even though otherwise they seem to be inherited as far as phonetics go. Not sure if it's the date that's the issue (but for most of them they were still attested by 1100 or the 11th century, if not earlier).

A resource I found on Old French on the other hand, along with a few linguistic essays I browsed through, seemed to accept several of the terms seen as borrowed by the French academy's dictionary as inherited (not necessarily the specific ones I was talking about above). I noticed there was also a case where the TLFi failed to mention an obviously borrowed word like hypnotique was a borrowing, but so far that's the only one I found. Overall it's still pretty much the most reliable resource we have on French etymologies, but I just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about this. I'm not enough of an expert to contradict them, but on occasion even sources like this may not be totally accurate or may just be missing some info... I know the Spanish RAE has actually made many inaccuracies, but the TLFi seems to hold their work to a higher or more rigorous standard. Word dewd544 (talk) 00:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit- to add to that, I recently noticed is also listed as being borrowed from a Vulgar Latin  in that dictionary. Not sure if that means it's because it was altered from the Old French form, because afterward it says the modern form is a result of being influenced by the derived verb ... Word dewd544 (talk) 02:22, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
 * --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 08:29, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I will check on what the literature I have access to says on this. On atteindre that looks like a regular development, suggesting inheritance, not loaning. Regarding baba, yes beve would be the regular development (stressed open /a/ regularly becomes an e), so the account that it was influenced by the verb baver seems likely (i.e. analogy). The /a/ was preserved when not stressed in the case of a verb like baver as typically the second syllable of a word like bava:re would bear stress.--Calthinus (talk) 13:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of the Navajo word níłtsą́ (rain)
In the etymology section of the entry a derivation from the root  ("to trickle, accumulate in a trickle") is proposed. This root is also attested in other Athabaskan languages, e.g. 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬. However YM (1992) lists níłtsą́ under a different root, namely ("to rain, raindrops fall"). In my opinion the latter etymology makes more sense. Apart from the semantic association, there are two basic considerations that make me think the word níłtsą́ should be related to the root rather than :

 * 1) The root  has an ejective alveolar affricate, while  displays its aspirated counterpart. I don't know of any phonological or morphophonemic rule in Navajo according to which an ejective consonant could lose its glottalic exponent, i.e. Cʔ → C. It is true that stem variations in Navajo are for the most part unpredictable, however these changes generally involve quality, quantity, nasality or tone of the radical vowel and/or alterations of the syllabic coda of the root, but not initial consonants. Sometimes classifiers,  and  can alter the first consonant of the stem, nevertheless this alteration only affects the [+/- voiced] feature, in the case of -l- and -ł-, or triggers the D-effect, in the case of -d-, but it doesn't affect the [+/- ejective] feature.
 * 2) Formally, níłtsą́ is a noun derived from an homophone verb form meaning "there is rain, it's rainy", hence "rain". Nominal forms like this one normally come from a verb conjugated in the Neuter aspect, see e.g. names of colors:, , etc., and atmospheric terms like . Interestingly, the last example I've given shows a close resemblance to níłtsą́ in the structure: both have the modal/adjectival  prefix, the classifier  and a Neuter Perfective stem. In YM's Analytical Lexicon of Navajo, the root  has the following stem set:
 * So, as one can see, the Neuter Perfective stem of this root is -tsʼąʼ instead of -tsą́. However, if we assume níłtsą́ derives from the root, we get the right form, the Neuter Perfective stem of this root is in fact -tsą́.

For these reasons I reckon the correct etymology of relates to the root. What do you think? Should we change what's written in the etymology section for this word? — Sorjam (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 03:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Chuck Entz (talk) 03:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * is from . Pre-Proto-Athabaskan *kan, Proto-Athabaskan *kʸan. is cognate with  (belly, become pregnant). —Stephen (Talk) 04:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

tsjoen
What's the etymology of this? Are there cognates in other Germanic languages? Teepok (talk) 05:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It appears that all the "magic" words derive from the verb, which itself derived from Old Frisian , , related to the archaic English word . Leasnam (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As far as cognates, yes. In addition to English, there is 🇨🇬 Leasnam (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed reply. I saw tsjoenderij featured on the main page and wondered. Teepok (talk) 06:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

rantistirion
Would be glad for some assistance with the etymology of. The Greek word for the term appears to be 🇨🇬, but that may not be accurate as it does not explain the -ion ending of the English word. — SGconlaw (talk) 08:42, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * According to R:LBG, the Byzantine word is actually . —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:53, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 02:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , would you happen to know how the Greek word is pronounced? — SGconlaw (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * According to grc-IPA, from the 4th century onward it's, though at some point that first /t/ became a /d/ because it occurs after /n/. I'm not sure when that change happened, though. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm trying to determine how it would be pronounced in English. I'm presuming it wouldn't be too different. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Derivative or borrow
Hello. I want learn what is difference between derivative or borrow? --Drabdullayev17 (talk) 12:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * For the meaning of a borrowing, you may find "Appendix:Glossary" helpful. We don't have a definition of a derivative there, though. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:26, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

different gender of German Tal, Swedish dal
What explanation is there for this extremely rare difference in gender of cognates?

Should dalaz be added to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/dalą? --Espoo (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Template:goh-noun doesn't explain how to add more than one gender. --Espoo (talk) 17:57, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There's a bunch of words, mostly a-stems, that appear with different genders in different branches. I don't really know why that is, nor if there is any kind of systematic difference, like whether one branch always has masculine while the other always has neuter. This seems like something linguistis might have looked into. —Rua (mew) 18:02, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

 * I was under the impression that gender is extremely stable across different branches. How big of a group are a stems? --Espoo (talk) 18:11, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Category:Proto-Germanic a-stem nouns. They make up the majority of masculine and neuter nouns. —Rua (mew) 18:13, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, gender is less stable than you might think. Middle Dutch is full of nouns that have a different gender than they had in earlier Germanic. is masculine or feminine in Middle Dutch, but  is neuter. —Rua (mew) 18:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you please give an estimate of how big that bunch of a-stems is that have different genders in different branches? Have you seen many? All i've noticed so far is that German nouns seem to almost always have the same gender as their Swedish and French cognates. --Espoo (talk) 18:28, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We haven't really made a systematic inventory, and given how many a-stems there are, finding them might take a while. I think it would be a good idea though. —Rua (mew) 18:43, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * What do you think of making a systematic inventory of these? Do you want to help out? We probably want to rename the pages as well, replacing -ą and -az with a simple -a- to indicate the ambiguity. —Rua (mew) 18:46, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think an inventory could be of use, and I would love to assist sure Leasnam (talk) 03:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/ēmaitijǭ
Anyone got any ideas on what the prefix is? The page seems to imply a similar meaning to. 19:10, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

mare
Needs an explanation for the /a/ < o. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 19:37, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's a proposed variant/extension of Thurneysen-Havet's law (which states *owV > /awV/, as in, ): *a > /o/ in open syllables adjacent to a bilabial. I'm not sure about "needing" an explanation, though: we are a dictionary, not a source on historical phonology. (This topic should probably be mentioned in History of Latin, though.) --Tropylium (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

geneat
Was the modern English term really inherited from Old English? It looks like one of those borrowed terms that refer specifically to Anglo-Saxon society, like, and. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:24, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that's correct. The OED has no quotations for it between 1050 and 1861. — Eru·tuon 20:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to use . — Kleio (t · c) 20:39, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Kolpos
Gynecologists are familiar with colposcopy, colpocleisis, colpotomy, colprctomy, etc. All refer to procedures an anatomic structures related to the vagina. So, an etymology referencing gap, gulf, opening, womb are all correct - referencing vagina.

 * @2600:387:9:5::66 Absolutely. I've created now. Wyang (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

The correct naming of Etymology Scriptorium
In short - shouldn't "Etymology Scriptorium" be named "Scriptorium Etymologensis" instead?

To keep it simple, of course.

 * Nah. — Kleio (t · c) 19:45, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If anything, it would definitely be Scriptorium Etymologicum, but nah. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 19:53, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

 * This is en.wikt so the "rooms" are named in English. See English entry at scriptorium. Equinox ◑ 21:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Was thinking the same thing Equinox. mellohi... 01:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/sterxs
I reconstructed this particular word this way because of a comment in Matasovic 2009 in which he thinks that the word could be connected to στέργω by assuming a back-formation from a consonant stem in -g. I personally agree, as it could explain the masculine gender in the Welsh descendant. Is this okay? mellohi... 01:54, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it would be better to have the page at Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/sterkā, which is the form that can actually be reconstructed from the attested forms, and then mention the hypothesis that it's a reformation of an earlier *sterxs in the Etymology section. I would favor moving the current page to Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/sterkā but keeping the hard redirect. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 10:46, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. But how do you suppose that the word turned masculine in Welsh? Though I'll concede that it was feminine before. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 13:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Who knows? Sometimes languages reassign gender based on synonyms or antonyms (e.g. shifted from neuter to feminine because  is feminine), so maybe  became masculine because  is masculine. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * TBH you probably have nailed it. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 16:03, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

阿塞拜疆
RFV of the etymology. Who is the source language ? Dokurrat (talk) 17:19, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , it's hard to say definitively. English, Russian and Azeri seem to be the most likely source languages. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:25, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the from-English claim need evidence. It was a Soviet Union republic and I really don't see how this China Mainland term is derived from English. Dokurrat (talk) 03:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Any thoughts? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:03, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Haven't had much luck finding the etymology either, but I do agree that Russian is a more likely source. Wyang (talk) 11:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this would help, but just putting this out there: w:zh:Wikipedia:外語譯音表/俄語 would give 阿澤(?)拜占, and w:zh:Wikipedia:外語譯音表/英語 would give 阿澤拜章. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 14:03, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * These two Mainland-oriented transliteration guides are seemingly not enforced upon USSR republic names. Эстония/Estonia is, not *埃斯托尼亞(either Russian or English), Грузия is , not *格魯濟亞(Russian, English n/a), Казахстан/Kazakhstan is , not *卡扎赫斯坦(Russian) or *卡澤克斯坦 (English). Dokurrat (talk) 14:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

обувь - can anyone translate the Russian etymological information and add it?
The term lacks an etymology in the English Wiktionary, but the Russian Wiktionary gives the following:

Происходит от гл. обувать (обуть), далее из праслав. *ob-uti, от кот. в числе прочего произошли: др.-русск., ст.-слав. обоути (ὑποδεῖσθαι — Супр.), укр. обу́ти, белор. обу́ць, болг. обу́я, сербохорв. о̀бути, о̀буjе̑м, словенск. obúti, obȗjem, чешск. obouti, obuji, словацк. оbut᾽, польск. obuć, obuję, в.-луж. wobuč, н.-луж. hobuś. Праслав. *ob-uti наряду с *jьz-uti (см. изу́ть) родственно лит. aũti, aunù, aviaũ «носить обувь, обувать(ся)», араũti «обуваться», латышск. àut, àunu «обувать», авест. аоɵrа- «башмак», лит. auklė̃ ж. «портянка», лат. ехuō, -еrе «разувать, снимать», induō, -еrе «надевать», sub-ūcula «нижнее платье», арм. aganim «надеваю». Праслав. *obutъ, русск. обу́т и т. д. образованы точно так же, как лит. àр-аutаs — то же. Использованы данные словаря М. Фасмера. См. Список литературы.

I don't know what this means, so if anyone familiar with Russian etymology can decipher this, feel free to add it in the English Wiktionary. 8.40.151.110 02:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Translation: From the verb обувать (обуть), from Proto-Slavic *ob-uti, from which also Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic обоути, Ukrainian обути, Belarusian обуць, Bulgarian обуя, Serbo-Croatian о̀бути, Slovenian obúti, Czech obouti, Slovak оbuť, Polish obuć, Upper Sorbian wobuč, Lower Sorbian hobuś. Proto-Slavic *ob-uti along with *jьz-uti (see изуть) are akin to Lithuanian auti ("to wear shoes"), араuti ("to wear shoes"), Latvian aut ("to wear shoes"), Avestan аоɵrа- ("shoe"), Lithuanian auklė ("footcloth"), Latin ("to take off, remove"),  ("to put on"),  ("undershirt"), Old Armenian ագանիմ ("put on"). Proto-Slavic *obutъ, Russian обу́т, etc., are formed in exactly the same way as Lithuanian ap-аutаs. —Stephen (Talk) 11:46, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

nisba
RFV of the etymology.
 * According to this [] it is correct Leasnam (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I found and added another source which broadly agrees, saying it's from nichts/nix da. - -sche (discuss) 17:54, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

堕天使
Needs a source that specifically says so. Nothing personal, I'm just very skeptical about this historically-deduced kind of information. ばかFumiko￥talk 16:05, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * For those interested, please also see Talk:堕天使 where I attempted to explain the history. Note also that the disputed text clearly explains "probably" not "definitely".  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:24, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Old French etymologies
Is anyone an expert on French phonological evolution? What's the deal with (O.Fr. ) and  (and also /)? Again TLFi says is a borrowing, although it doesn't look like one. Could it also be a matter of the Old Northern French/Norman dialect for and such? Obviously the modern French forms with -voquer are learned borrowings but I'm not sure what the deal is with the others. There's also this entry, but I'm not sure how to interpret it. Word dewd544 (talk) 23:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Mglovesfun/Renard Migrant still edits on fr.wikt, maybe we can ask him there? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:10, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a good idea. It seems he actually edited the page on the above-mentioned word on their Wiktionary. Word dewd544 (talk) 00:05, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

fr:Discussion_utilisateur:Renard_Migrant --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * dunno if I'm way too late to this conversation, but Pope pretty clearly states that the noun form avoué is inherited from Latin advocatum. Phonologically it is not suspect as far as I can see-- the intervocalic /k/ went to /g/ and then /γ/ by lenition, and the /γ/ was effaced in Later Gallo-Roman when it was between /o/, /u/, /au/ or /a/ (see Pope, From Latin to Modern French, page 139 section 342iii) . --Calthinus (talk) 20:24, 24 June 2018 (UTC)