text:
Talk:Penda of Mercia

I removed this line
I removed this line: "but after the defeat of the Welsh king at Oswald at "Hefenfeith" in 644, Mercia seems to have been for a time subject to Northumbria."

Oswald of Northumbria defeated Cadwallon of Gwynedd at Hefenfeith near Hadrian's Wall in 633 or 635. Penda and the Mercians were unwilling allies of Cadwallon. Penda killed Oswald in 642. Until 644 Penda ruled southern Northumberland. In 645 Penda overthrew Cenwalh and ruled Wessex for three years. When could Northumbria have ruled Mercia after 644? Rmhermen 16:58, Feb 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * Kirby in The Earliest English Kings seems to think that Bede is overstating Oswiu's position as top dog of the area in the 640s, but the evidence either way is very scanty; 1911EB was probably oversimplifying. What it meant to "rule" in any of these situations is hard to know, since there were lots of subkings and overkings and never an explanation of what that actually meant. Stan 18:34, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

His age
We follow the 1911 in saying that the AS Chronicle is probably wrong about his age based on the ages of his children but as far as I can see we never establish the ages of his children either here or in the three articles we have on his children. Do we have any reason for this claim about Penda's age? Rmhermen 04:55, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Bede calls Wulfhere "a youth" (book III, ch. XXIV) three years after Penda's death, and the circumstances in which he came to power (Bede's describes him being installed in power by two rebel leaders, after being kept in hiding, and does not seem to imply Wulfhere's active participation) do seem to suggest he was still pretty young. We might guess that Penda's other son, Aethelred, was younger still, since he became king after Wulfhere's death, and we know he lived until 716, which would make him over 60 even if he was just an infant at Penda's death, and it's pretty unlikely an 80 year old man would have such young children. It has been suggested that the claim he was 50 years old in 626 may actually be a mistake meant to apply to the time of his death in 655, and that does seem plausible. Everyking 11:30, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Image
I think this article is getting to the point where I can consider nominating it for FAC. I still have some more stuff I want to work on, but some of that may take time, since it can be hard to find the sources I'm looking for. But the article has a problem in that it has no image. The best thing I know of is a map, but I've never been able to find one that was both public domain and adequate for the purposes of this article. Does anyone have an idea about this? Everyking 10:14, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I am uploading some antique maps of Britain this evening to Commons including the useful Britannia Saxonica showing the boundaries of Mercia. You could either include such maps - or trace the kingdom borders onto a modern map. Most useful would be two maps: one prior to his reign and another post-reign - showing his impact. Also, are there any "artist impressions" of him? --Oldak Quill 19:03, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The problem is it's all very obscure. The pre and post idea would be nice, but would be virtually impossible to do accurately. The Mercia maps might be useful, though. I don't know of any artist impressions. Everyking 19:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm thinking about separating Geoffrey of Monmouth's account from the Hatfield section completely, and moving it to what would be a more complete summary of his history as it deals with Penda near the bottom of the article. This would eliminate the risk of misleading the reader with information taken from Geoffrey's semi-mythical history, but I'm not sure if this organization would be preferable. Any thoughts? Everyking 13:11, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A better method of referencing Bede? Cite the chapters in-line with the text? I'm not sure what to do about that, but I feel there needs to be a better method of identifying which chapters of Bede are being referenced. Everyking 22:27, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Two alternative antique maps as images, that I have uploaded: Image:Robert Morden - Britannia Saxonica.jpg and Image:Saxon England according to the Saxon Chronicle.jpg. Not sure if Mercia is as clear on these, but they look more magnificant - could always subtly bring Mercia forward with Photoshop (as long as the originals are not overwritten). --Oldak Quill 20:05, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality, why'd you add a reference that wasn't actually used in the article? Perhaps more suited to "further reading" classification? Everyking 07:35, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I want to do a little trimming to this article: I want to snip a few unnecessary cites and perhaps remove a few details that are perhaps better suited for other articles. However, since this is a featured article, I want to be very careful in doing so. If anyone finds anything even marginally objectionable about a change I make, please revert it and put it up for discussion. Everyking 00:55, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Any change of getting a picture? I'd love to feautre this on the main page, but biographical article more-or-less necessitate a picture of the person (with occasional expections such as using a picture of an artist's work in place of a picture of the artist)? →Raul654 21:22, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think I've ever seen even a fanciful representation (such as those Victorian anachronistic drawings of medieval kings we've got all over the place, where they'll be wearing armor or fashion from 500 years down the line or so), and there's certainly no contemporary image to use. Everyking 21:37, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not picky - most anything will do. →Raul654 21:39, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * My point was that there is nothing. We have the map...I honestly don't know what else could be used. There could be something obvious that is escaping me right now, but I don't think so. Everyking 21:59, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

If we want to stretch it, there's this beautiful image from Sutton Hoo which is contemporary with Penda, but unfortunately it's an East Anglian artifact and not Mercian. But it is very pretty, and could work if we're primarily concerned with decorative use. Everyking 22:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Penny
I removed the suggestion that his name was the origin of the word penny - since cognates of the word exist in other Germanic languages (German Pfennig, Swedish penning etc.) it is highly unlikely. Hedgehog 11:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, but it is considered a possibility, and I actually left it out until I was specifically asked by someone to include it. If you can add it back and at the same time shed a little more light on the subject (without getting too far off track) that would be great. Everyking 04:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know if it's considered a possibility by anyone who actually knows anything about English etymology - while a Google search for 'penny' and 'Penda' comes up with loads of sites, none of them seem to give any sources. Neither the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology nor Duden's Herkunftswörterbuch suggest it, and it seems unlikely that it would have been borrowed into Old Saxon or Old High German from Old English (although it might have been borrowed in Old Norse). Its forms in the various early Germanic languages suggest a common West Germanic *panning, *paning or *panding, which look rather less like 'Penda' and suggest that it was probably a loanword. The ODEE suggests a link with pawn, which may be from Latin pannus, piece of cloth, while Duden suggests a a derivation from early forms of the word pan. 'Penda' seems pretty unlikely though. Hedgehog 09:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

What about the Welsh "pen," meaning "head" or "prominence" (hence a secondary meaning - a hill - as in, Penrith, Pendle Hill etc.)? Penda could easily be a Welsh-bestowed nickname meaning chief or overlord. More than one "Anglo-Saxon" king had a Brythonic/Welsh name eg. Caedwalla and Cerdic and possibly Ceawlin. Penda was certainly an ally of Welsh princes, and after the death of Cadwallon of Gwynedd probably achieved some measure of overlordship over at least some of his Welsh allies. A precedent for the use of "pen-" names to indicate overlordship could be seen in the term "pendragon" or "chief-dragon" connected to Arthur.

Urselius 16:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Footnote bonanza
50 (!) footnotes, most of which seem to be refering to very simple and uncontroversial facts, is definetly over the top and don't really add to the otherwise high standards of the article. Could someone do something about this?

Peter Isotalo 23:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Not really. They could be slightly excessive, but what you've got to understand is the obscurity of the subject...there is very little about Penda that is certain. So, I think, the more a subject is lost in the mist of time, the more you need to cite historians, to avoid stating as fact things that may just be interpretations. Also as a general principle I do like thorough referencing in Wikipedia articles; it helps deflect the most common charge against us, which is inaccuracy. Everyking 04:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Picture discussion

 * (Transferred from featured article candidates))

Has a map of england, but it sort of cries out for a picture of Penda himself→Raul654 21:26, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't believe any portraits of him survive. --Oldak Quill 20:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know of any images of Penda that have survived. -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px| ]] 23:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * There are none. This demand is pointless. Raul raised this on the talk page but apparently ignored me when I told him there was no way for me to get the kind of image he wanted. Everyking 01:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Are there any other images that would be appropriate for the article? It is rather a long article.  Any important places to Penda's life perhaps? -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 22:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Francs' thinking - in lieu of a picture of Penda himself, can anyone suggest an alternative image (besides, obviously, the map; as I have said before, maps generally don't make good main page images). How about a heraldric crest or some other iconographic symbol? →Raul654 22:49, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I've got an idea. Look at this link.  I contacted Mr. Ford, who offered to sell the rights to the photo to me and said the window was at Worcester Cathedral.  If there's anyone near there handy with a camera...--Pharos 22:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * What a good idea. If only I lived near Worcester... -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 23:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * ...coughcough... →Raul654 23:50, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Seeing as I live in Worcester I should be able to take a picture of that. I'll get onto it later this week.  violet/riga (t) 10:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That sounds great. Does anyone have more information on this picture, such as what exactly it's supposed to illustrate? A battle, obviously, but it would be helpful to know if it's depicting a specific event. Everyking 14:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well if you hover your mouse over the image it tells you it's depicting the death of Penda, presumably at the Battle of Winwaed. Perhaps Violet might be able to find out more while she's there? -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 21:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Not my greatest act of photography ever (it was rather high up!), but it's something: Image:Penda of Mercia.jpg. I might try and get another when I have some more time in town.  Sadly there wasn't any further information I could find out about it, though I'm sure someone will know about it - just a matter of luck as to whether they are there or not.  violet/riga (t) 16:32, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you, this is a big improvement, I think. Everyking 18:31, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Me too, I think it's an excellent shot. Well done. -- Francs2000 | Talk [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 18:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks Violet, it was excellent work getting that shot. Wikipedia is amazing; say "we need a photo from X part of the world", and you have it in a couple of days.--Pharos 07:38, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I have an idea. Whenever I think of Penda, the first thing that always comes to my mind is "penny", since I have always heard that the etymology of "penny" has it taking its name from this Mercian king.  I'm a little surprised this fact isn't even mentioned anywhere that I could see.  So, why not use a picture of the earliest English penny, if none exist from his specific reign? Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 18:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There's a story to this: someone before asked me to include that about the penny, so I did; but then recently someone else removed it on the grounds that it's unlikely. I don't have any strong opinion about it. The idea about Penda=penny seems to be notable enough for inclusion, but at the same time the argument against that origin of the word is quite convincing, in my opinion. Everyking 18:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just noticed that from the discussion and history. The article on pfennig says the term was used in Germany since the "Middle Ages", and IMO could easily have been borrowed into other N. Eur. languages from English, where it seems to appear first (from what I have just learned, under Offa who ruled Mercia in the next century)...  I'll see if I can find a clearer account... Codex Sinaiticus 18:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It sounds very much like an urban legend of sorts (which Wikipedia is not a collection of). You probably shouldn't mention it unless you can point to a reputable source that claims it is true. →Raul654 18:42, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, a preliminary Google for (Penda penny) brings up 100's of references, including banks' and professional numismatists' sites, though granted these sources may not be "reputable", and it still could be an 'urban legend' - though even urban legends that are this widely held perhaps ought to be given some mention. Just browsing through, I have seen the 'original penny' attributed to various other Saxon kings ca. 600-800 besides Penda and Offa, including Ina of Wessex and Heaberht of Kent. The coin name is mentioned in the A-S Chronicle entry (as penga) for 775 AD. Some sources state that King Penda issued no coinage, others, that he had silver "sceattas" minted.  But at least there can be no doubt that the silver "penny" replaced the sceatta in England around this timeframe, far, far earlier than any continental cognates (like pfennig) show up. Codex Sinaiticus 19:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I could get an early seventeenth century image from John Speed's atlas - the quality may not be great as it would be a photograph and is quite small.  The same sheet has images of several other early Saxon kings - naturally, based solely on Speed's imagination.  Would this be of any interest? Warofdreams 13:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know, could be interesting to put maybe in the historical appraisal section or something. Everyking 18:31, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone else noticed but I deleted the huge penis someone put on the page. Not that I have a thing against huge penises in fact if the owner of said instrument would like to meet for some...well nevermind...

Unhappy
I'm not happy with this article, even though it is featured. There are so many sources I want to get my hands on that aren't available to me, and I just feel like this article is inadequate in a lot of ways. I've been thinking about some ways to improve it. One thing I want to do is split the Geoffrey of Monmouth stuff into an independent, expanded section, and get it away from the "real" history. Does anyone have any suggestions? Be merciless. I would willing to consider nominating it for FA removal, depending on what others think. But what I really want to do is improve it. Everyking 09:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a great article, any of the "pro" encyclopedias would be happy to have it as-is. Definitely shouldn't be removed from FA. I don't think it wants to expand much though, already quite lengthy considering the sketchiness of the primary sources; once you've covered what all the secondary sources say, anything further is original research. IMHO it would be more useful to fill in all the red links and expand on all the connected articles - if you could click on any blue link and get a good article instead of a stub, that would probably be a first in WP! Stan 17:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * One problem, I think, is that the referencing is mind-bogglingly complicated—to the extent that I am discouraged from editing the article because dealing with changing the order of the references and the citations is just nightmarish. But I don't know of any better way to do it. Anybody have suggestions on how to simplify the system, without losing any of the referencing? Everyking 07:26, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * That is my great concern with the reference tag system. violet/riga (t) 08:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, it doesn't do us any good to just say it's flawed, we need to decide how it could be improved. Everyking 09:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * There are two ways I can see:
 * Use named references instead of numbered, perhaps ordering them by date or alphabetically rather than by the order they are found in the text
 * Add support into the MediaWiki code
 * The former is a possible solution, but the latter would be best (though unlikely). violet/riga (t) 09:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm just perpetually unhappy about this article...I think the intro is maybe too short. I feel like there's no "middle ground", between what the needs of the reader who wants just the bare essentials (that's the current intro) and in depth coverage (the rest of the article). I wish there was a paragraph or so more info in the intro, but I can't decide what to put in there. Any suggestions? Everyking 06:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

It reads fine to me :) The fellow reminds me slightly of Haakon Sigurdsson, the last pagan lord of Norway (I'd love to expand that article).

I'm familiar with the problem of writing about something where the primary sources are scant. Sometimes I like to just quote the sources and let them speak for themselves. It's not as readable as paraphrasing but paraphrasing can sometimes make something which is really an exhaustive collection of facts about the subject seem like a summary of something more. And sometimes there just isn't anything more - or it'd be in the article :) - Haukur 23:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking of modifying the reference system so that primary source references (or at least Bede, the most important one here) will be dealt with in line with the main text. I sometimes see it treated this way, and I think it would be an effective way to trim down the citation bloat, while at the same time not losing any of the referencing (and possibly making it more accessible). Everyking 07:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Using Cite.php helps enormously in ref'ing the article (it doesn't do anything for size, but who cares about that ?) : you can see it on Óengus I of the Picts, which I yesterday changed from this with ref/note to the current version using Cite.php. I used it from the start when rewriting Picts and Dalriada, and it was far, far easier than the ref/note nightmare. The only problem appears to be that you can't put notes in image captions, but this is also broken with ref/note anyway: see the discussion on Talk:Scotland in the High Middle Ages. This is one of only a very few English history articles that has refs. Please don't remove or reduce them. Angus McLellan 14:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I think fixing the problem is over my head, but if you (or anybody else) want to take a stab at reworking the refs, please do so. (Or if you can explain how to do it in simple terms, I'll give it a try.) What's important is that the notes get preserved; beyond that I don't think it really matters. Everyking 10:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Penda against Christianity
Penda fought battles, two really notable ones - where these to just get power and control over land and people or to fight against the spread of Christianity? Or a bit of both? Robert C Prenic 08:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably much more the former, at least in my opinion. It's unknown to what degree, if any, he was motivated by opposition to Christianity, but several things we do know suggest this shouldn't be seen as the primary factor in events: most importantly, Bede says that Penda tolerated the preaching of Christianity within Mercia; there's also the intermarriage of his children with the (Christian) Bernician line and his alliances with the (Christian) British. The latter two things could have been done in spite of his feelings toward Christianity, due to strategic imperative, but it is difficult to reconcile his tolerance of Christian preaching with the idea of a ruler fiercely opposed to the spread of Christianity. Everyking 07:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Penda and the British Connection
It may be worthwhile to make some comment about the possible connections of Penda's family with the British. None of the names of Penda, his father Pybba and his son Peada have very convincing Anglo-Saxon etymologies. The name Penda itself would seem to be connected to the Welsh "pen" meaning head or chief and Pybba might derive from the Welsh "pybyr" meaning "strong-stout." Another "pen" name occurs in the Mercian royal family, St. Guthlac's father was called Penwalh; this could be a composite Welsh-English name meaning "Head-Welshman." Penda's wife's name has a "cyn" element which though meaning "kin" in A-S could alternatively be derived from "cuno" meaning "hound" in Brythonic (many cuno names in the early Welsh upper classes eg Maglocunus (Maelgwn) and Cuneglassus (mentioned by Gildas)). Finally there is the sub-king Merewalh, another son of Penda, whose undoubtedly A-S name means "Illustrious Welshman."

Penda seems to have been a ferocious and generally astute warlord who eventually became the overlord of a number of peoples, some of which were undoubtedly mainly Welsh-speaking, and in doing so laid the foundations of a major insular state. Given the evidence of the personal names his family may well have had a rather ethnically mixed origin, like that of Cerdic of Wessex, and the identification with a purely Anglian origin may have been attributed later.

Urselius 16:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

 * This all seems very improbable, and a single reference to something written over a century ago by Sir John Rhys is not really sufficient for radical claims in a featured article. Starting with the obvious, negative evidence of Bede: Bede does not say that Penda was a Briton. And the negative evidence piles up: D.P. Kirby doesn't say that Penda was a Briton, Barbara Yorke doesn't say that he was a Briton, and Frank Stenton doesn't remark upon his British origins. Can you provide modern references which make the case for Penda's British origins? Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Urselius 08:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that I'm stating anything particularly improbable. Neither am I saying that Penda was a Briton. I am saying that there are no likely Anglo-Saxon origins for his name, or for those of the other members of his family I mentioned. On the other hand there are the possible Old Welsh derivations I have suggested. Have a look at the words, see if they appear possible or likely. In this context an ethnically mixed origin for his family is a possibility, though only a possibility.

There are undoubted Celtic names in other English dynasties, such as the founder of the Wessex royal line Cerdic, and Ceawlin and Caedwalla of the same dynasty. There is also Caedbaed of the Lindissi. I have read a number of works where the British name origin of some or all these leaders is not remarked upon. I take this as reflecting on the scholarship of the writers rather than the basic linguistic case for Celtic derivation.

The Welsh gave names to English kings in their own language, it is not a great stretch of the imagination to consider that in some cases, where the owner of the Welsh by-name had great intercourse with the Welsh and probably ruled many Welsh speakers (as Penda did), the Welsh name might become the one in general usage.

The names of the ecclesiastics Cedd, Chad and Caedmon are all of Welsh origins, from 'cat' meaning "battle," but Bede doesn't remark on their Welshness or the Welshness of their names. Your argument that Bede did not remark on the derivation of Penda's name is therefore somewhat undermined by Bede's obvious insensibility to the Welsh name origins in general and particularly those of his pious heroes. Bede also mentions the Northumbrian royal centre Ad Gefrin without remarking that it is a British, not Anglo-Saxon, name.

The fact that Penda was a pagan seems to have closed the minds of many scholars to the anomalous non-Germanic features of his name and that of the names of some members of his family. This is despite the paucity of knowledge as to the extent of Celtic paganism surviving into the period. It also ignores the well attested phenomenon of the acculturation of hostages and exiles. Both the Northumbrian kings Edwin and Oswy spent some of their (in the case of Oswy most of) younger formative years in exile at Celtic and Christian courts. Oswy certainly gained a Gaelic by-name whilst in exile in Dal Riada, and both kings were exposed to Celtic Christianity. That Penda might have been from a British or mixed family and was raised, as a hostage or exile, at a pagan Anglian court and became an acculturated pagan is therefore not unthinkable.

In short Penda had a name which doesn't mean anything in Anglo-Saxon, and is probably of Welsh derivation. He might have gained this name from the Welsh and not been of British origins himself. Alternatively, as in the case of the West Saxon dynasty, Penda's name might reflect a British origin for his family or one that was ethnically mixed. Incidentally I've seen references to Penda's queen as being a relation of Cynddylan of Powys, but I don't know their veracity. BTW King Oswy married a British princess, Rhianfellt of Rheged, so such marriages were not unknown.

Rhys was an excellent linguist, I don't think the age of a piece of scholarship has any direct bearing on its usefulness.

Urselius 13:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * You're assuming I disagree with the idea, but I don't. What I disagree with is including it here. Adding comments implying a British origin of Penda's name may be blindingly obvious, but until some of the Anglo-Saxonists take their heads out of the sand and rethink things based on more modern ideas of the origins of Anglo-Saxon England, we should not be aiming to lead the field. Nobody else writing about Penda appears to think his name is worth remarking on, so neither should we. Wikipedia doesn't do original thinking, not even through hints to the reader. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Rethinking the origins of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in the light of personal name origins has been done before, notably by Myres in "The English Settlements" concerning the origins of Wessex and the Cerdicings, and on a smaller scale in "Defining the Magonsaete" (The Origins of A-S Kingdoms, Ed. Steven Basset) regarding Merewalh the supposed son of Penda. The surprising thing is that a similar reappraisal of Penda hasn't happened although the literature is littered with passing references to his non-A-S name.

In a more general sense authors such as Hodges, Higham, Arnold and also the geneticists such as Sykes have highlighted the population continuity between Roman Britain and A-S England, so that the "Little Englander" tone of the Penda Wiki entry strikes a distinctly old-fashioned note.

By way of a "commodious vicus of recirculation" the antiquity of Rhys's observation is a help in this, as it is hardly "leading the field" to highlight an observation that is over a century old.

Perhaps merely noting the lack of A-S etymology of Penda's name without suggesting the Welsh candidate meanings would be a conservative option?

Urselius 19:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * That seems fine to me. As regards the point about Rhys and older sources, while it may seem reasonable, it is something of a slippery slope. Sticking to modern sources means that we don't get swamped with Victorian imaginings on royal genealogies and the like. Not so bad here, but in some other areas of the Insular Early Middle Ages there is an awful lot of old tat on google books and the like which could be used to "source" discredited claims which would be unhelpful in Wikipedia articles. It's not always easy to find a specific refutation of such things, even when they are clearly discredited and no longer mentioned in modern works. If you're ever at a loose end, I did some work on Wulhere and Æthelred, but there's still a lot needs doing. Is there anything like a plausible argument that Mrs Penda, Cynewise, was a kinswoman of Cynegils? I thought I saw one in print but can't put my hands on one. I'm not aware of Cyne-names being at all common outside of Mercia and Wessex. Likewise, -walh names seem more common there than elsewhere. Time for some amateur statistical anthroponymy perhaps, aided by the wonderful Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the Welsh suggestions, leaving just the bald statement about the lack of A-S etymology. In regard to references to old sources, yes it can be counter productive in some cases, but I think not in all. I was surprised to find extensive references to Beddoe's "Races of Britain," written in the 1880s, in a recent book by the population (and ancient DNA) Oxford geneticist Sykes (Blood of the Islands?). As I lent my copy of the Beddoe book to a friend who was Sykes' post-doc at the time perhaps I'm responsible for any number of archaic references. ;) There is another advantage in using older references now as so many older books in the public domain have been scanned and are available, on the web, to the non-specialist reader.

It would be very good for someone to get to the bottom of the cyne- names; perhaps, like hanging bowls and their suspension chains, they are survivals in the insular upper classes dating back to the Iron Age. It would be attractive to think that a name element survived from the time of Cunobelin into the Anglo-Saxon era.

Urselius 08:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've found a more recent reference! "Some elements in Mercian royal names may possibly also be British" in Sims-Williams, Religion and Literature, p. 26. Cambridge 1990.

Wundorlice (or something like that).

Urselius 14:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I hoped there was a reference somewhere, so perhaps miraculous is a bit strong. Still impressive though. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

To return breifly to the cyne- names, St. Chad's brother Cynebil would seem a good candidate for a survival of Cunobelin, also the king Cynegils might display another with a b-g shift (scribal error?).

Urselius 13:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Nora Chadwick questioned why an Anglo-Saxon war-chief would have a name which meant "Good-Chief" in Welsh. Can't find the reference on't internet tho. Boynamedsue 11:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Good! I have at least one of her books at home, I'll have a quick scan though. Urselius 11:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Penda unequivocally described as a British name
Pages 125-126 the authors of the work below describe the members of a Northumbrian [spiritual] brotherhood who have Celtic names, described in the ninth century Liber vitae Dunelmensis, the name Penda occurs as a British name in this list. This is the first instance of the name Penda being used for another person than the Mercian king I have come across.

Filppula, M., Klemola, J., Paulasto, H., and Pitkanen, H., (2008) English and Celtic in Contact, Routledge. ISBN 0415266025

There is a preview of this book available online via Google Book Search.Urselius (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Two statements cut
I've cut the following two sentences:
 * "Oswald's moves toward alliance with the West Saxons, who occupied territory to the south of the Mercians, could be seen as an attempt to counter Mercian power."
 * "This may indicate a special hereditary claim over southern Mercia by Penda's line that it did not have over the north."

Both are reasonable, but I've been unable to source them. The latter was at the end of a paragraph about Penda's kingship of southern Mercia; the relevant source (Kirby) doesn't get close enough to saying what the cut sentence says for it to be a source for the statement. The first statement is also reasonable, but I can't find anything specific about Oswald making alliances; the sources I have all simply talk about the conflict between Penda and the West Saxons, and not about any Northumbrian involvement, known or guessed.

If either can be sourced, please add them back. Mike Christie (talk) 00:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Germanic etymology?
I have grave concerns over the Germanic etymology presented for the name Penda, one supporting link is to a page of unpublished matter of uncertain origins the other is to an online etymology which gives a putative West Germanic word which is unrecorded or an ultimately Latin origin!

The whole is a circular argument - Penda is an English king therefore his name has to be Germanic, therefore there must be a word of Germanic origins to fit - let's use something not recorded in Anglo-Saxon writing, that might even be of Latin origins but possibly, by reconstruction, might have existed in Proto-West Germanic. This smacks of desperation.

I do not think these are nearly adequate as supporting material for a featured article.Urselius (talk) 08:04, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Remarkable omission
There is no direct statement concerning a number of remarkable facts about Penda. He was a warlike pagan Anglo-Saxon king who never fought the British, his recorded enemies are all Anglo-Saxon and throughout his career he was always allied to British kings. All his major battles were fought alongside British warbands against Anglo-Saxon armies.Urselius (talk) 08:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Nominating for WP:FAR ?
WP:FA status on this page was granted over 6 years ago but it is clearly is no longer up to scratch. Any experts out there willing to help me try to fix it? (I know very little of the subject or indeed of that period of history so couldn't do it alone). Otherwise it goes to WP:FAR - which may be a good thing as that would bring it to wider attention that it needs a thorough overhaul. Plutonium27 (talk) 12:19, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * It went through an FAR in 2009, as you can see from the article history or look at it Featured article review/Penda of Mercia/archive1. What specifically do you find lacking in the article that deserves the two big tags at the top ... you should know that both Mike Christie and myself looked and worked over the article at the 2009 FAR, and we're probably some of the closest to subject matter experts available here on Wikipedia. As mentioned in the previous FAR - the "uncertain" language used in the article is a reflection of the scholarship - not much is known definitively about the period so the article necessarily reflects the uncertainty in the sources. I do find it curious that someone who states that they "know very little of the subject or indeed of that period of history" would sweepingly tag the article as not up to snuff ... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:07, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree with Ealdgyth. It's not obvious to me what is missing from the article; perhaps you could be specific?  This was mostly written by another editor, who is no longer active in this area, but I think it's in good shape now.  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 14:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I have some particular problems with the page as it stands, as I have outlined above, though in general I think it is well written but perhaps somewhat old-fashioned in outlook.

 * I think the Germanic etymology for 'penda' is so slight it should be stricken, the sources are just not of sufficiently reputable scholarship for inclusion in a FA.

 * There are a number of hugely important facets of Penda's life that cry out for a more prominent treatment. He was an Anglo-Saxon pagan king who never fought the Welsh, all his recorded enemies were Anglo-Saxon.  In all his major campaigns he was allied to Welsh princes.  I believe that this is very important and points to ethnicity and religion playing only a limited role in the politics of Penda's era.Urselius (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * You need reliable sources that point out those facts. And quite honestly, calling anyone the "Welsh" at this time is anachronistic. Find the sources, then it can be included, but without reliable sources for this information it's just original research. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Take a look at the sources for the Germanic etymology - they are ridiculous.

 * Read the article, there are no recorded instances of Penda fighting the Welsh - by Penda's day Old British had transformed into Early Welsh, and those who spoke this language were presumably Welsh - call them Welsh, British, Cumbrogi or Cymry if you like. Steven Basset (ed.) The Origins of Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms, page 168:  "it is certainly clear that Welsh [not just me who is anachronistic!] support played a part in determining Penda's fortunes at critical moments of his career." Also "We do not know whether the alliance between Mercia and certain Welsh kingdoms survived Penda's death."Urselius (talk) 17:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I have Basset and can add anything necessary from that, but I'm heading to the airport in an hour and won't be back till September. I suggest that rather than another FAR we simply work on improving the article.  If we don't have consensus on how to do that in a month or so, we can revisit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 17:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

 * I think the article could be merely re-ordered to deflect most objections. The most compelling criticism is that of an essay-type format. The article could be made more encyclopaedic by using headings such as "Relations with Northumbria,"  "Religion," "Alliances with the Welsh," "Role in the creation of a Greater Mercia," "Paganism and Christianity in Penda's Mercia," "Creation of Mercian sub-kingdoms - Magonsaete, Hwicce, Middle Anglia" etc.Urselius (talk) 11:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Feel free to make changes as you see fit, although I don't find the section headings that unencyclopedic myself. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:40, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference order
Hello all. Months ago, in the bibliography at the article's very end, the books were numbered in a neat order. At a moment when I was not logged in (therefore you may have a hard time finding the exact point), I re-sorted the books into an alphabetical order. At the time, I did not edit the book-referring numbers in the "References" section's text, so I did not realise that I was making a mess out of it, making the numbers point wrongly. The mistake was made in good faith and I have intended to correct it ever since. During the time since my mistake, someone took the numbers off altogether. Maybe they realised that the numbers were all wrong anyway, and, not having the information I had (of when exactly the mistake was made), maybe they thought that the numbers could not be recovered as they had been and so chose not to proceed with correcting them, eliminating them instead. Maybe not. Anyway, after approximately two years, I just reinstated the bibliography's book order as it was in May 2009 (which was the original, correctly-numbered bibliography) and renumbered the books as they were then too. Sorry about everything. SrAtoz (talk) 19:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

 * no, the numbers are not used in the bibliography section at all. That is why they were removed. The books/sources in the bibliography should be listed in alphabetical order, with bullet points in front - not with numbers. So, no, your edit, while well intentioned, is incorrect. I've reverted it to the correct alphabetical listing. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you are confusing these entries with references which automatically generate numbers with active links to the content on the page. This section you are editing is not references and those numbers you added do not link to anything. If those sources were used to reference facts in the article they should be added as proper references instead. Rmhermen (talk) 13:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, yes and no. For one thing, I am relieved by both responses above; no real harm has been done then. But please let me clarify this. Along the text, there are links from the text to the Notes section (I called them "References" above; I stand corrected). Those are one thing. But I wrote about something else entirely. In the *contents* of the Notes section, some of these notes end with links to the bibliography below. See, for example, note #11, which pointed to Henry of Huntingdon (item #5 in the bibliography). Now, originally (May 2009), the links-from-notes-to-bibliography had been numbered, not automatically ("#"), but manually -- I found that out from the wiki code -- while, at the same time, the bibliography itself was numbered automatically. Of course there was a discrepancy there: should anyone add a book somewhere in the middle of the list, it would dislodge all the following books and the numbers in the links would become wrong. Harm could only be avoided if new books were added to the bibliography's end only. Anyway, back when I made my original mistake, what I did was reorder the books into an alphabetical order without changing the static, manually-added numbers where the Notes section sent to them. A few days ago, just before I strived to correct the mess, I checked: it really was a mess; the numbers did send to books different from the ones that had originally been pointed to by the notes. That is why I tried to correct my mess-of-old. Now, of course, if the books really should be in an alphabetical order, then so much the better! I had been right in mid-2009 without knowing it...
 * I suggest we remove the manually-added numbers that are within the Notes section. On a second, smaller note, Fisher now comes before Filppula, so I am changing this next.
 * Thanks for all the understanding! I try not to behave like a newbie, and yet these minor fails occur... SrAtoz (talk) 22:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Name
Penda (name) could be a standalone page. As long as the topic is covered here,
 * Despite the formulaic claim to descent from Woden, some suggest that none of the names of Penda, his father Pybba and his son Peada have very convincing Anglo-Saxon etymologies

is rather dubious editorializing. The descent claim from Woden has nothing to do with the name's etymology, come on, Germanic etymology only became accessible to study in the 19th century, and it isn't "despite" the medieval claims that "some claim" Celtic origin. THe fact of the matter is that "some claim" Celtic and "others claim" Germanic derivation, and both have reasonable evidence, and the upshot is that the communis opinio is simply that the etymology has not been explained satisfactorily. --dab (𒁳) 20:14, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

 * The descent from Woden, if accurate in its later parts, would indicate a Continental Germanic origin for Penda's ancestors. If, however, it is inaccurate then the names of Penda and his father could be Brythonic because these persons had native British ancestry or connections. There is a logical connection. Of course we know that the British gave certain Anglo-Saxon leaders nicknames in Welsh, one early Northumbrian king was known as Flamddywyn (sp?) "Flame-bringer" to his British enemies. Therefore Penda (from pen- "head", "chief", "eminent", etc. in Welsh) could have been given the name he is known by by the Welsh, without having been of Welsh extraction himself. Also Pybba looks suspiciously like the Welsh word pybyr meaning "strong" "ardent". Urselius (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Etymology of Penda
I propose the following: PEN is in fact BEN and BEN is the contraction of BEREN (bears or bear's). -DA is DAG or day. With 'day' is meant daylight, brilliant. So, his name was "brilliant as a bear" or 'shiny bear' or 'clearly a bear' (ref: voornamen etymologisch woordenboek, Vd Schaar, 1964 - the name 'Penda' does not occur, the parts do). The contraction of 'beren' to 'bern' (Bern = capital of Switzerland) and the attested names Ben, Bein, Benne, Biene, Bintje (name given to a potato) and more, names of prevailing Fries origin with reduction of 'r'. DA from 'dag' is also frequently shortened to da, di, dei, from pgm *daga. At the time nobody cared about how a name was written down, providing everybody knew who the person was, hence the P(en) for a B. That is undoubtedly the case here. So, the name is duly Germanic. Michael042 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:53, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
 * And your Reliable Source for this is? The TP are not for original research theorizing, but for the discussion of how best to utilize Reliable Sources for the betterment of the article. HammerFilmFan (talk) 06:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Germanic etymology of Penda
I quote from the article:

"Others have suggested that the name Penda comes from an unrecorded, and therefore putative, Old English word meaning "pledge".

This assertion is false, or at least it is misleading. It suggests that scholars investigating the origins of the name Penda have found Old English etymologies. This is true of the Celtic etymology asserted earlier in the article - the citations here are to scholarly works of direct relevance. The citations that the above sentence links to, are obviously sources that wikipedia editors have sought out in order to uphold their opinions. The sources are related to the etymology of Penda only indirectly, they are not from scholarly works that were directly investigating the etymology of the name.

This constitutes original research and is poor stuff for a FA to contain. Urselius (talk) 10:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

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Artist behind stained glass depiction?
One source states that the Worcester Cathedral Cloister stained windows "were designed and executed in the 1930s by Archibald John Davies (1877-1953)". Can anyone confirm this? If this is the artist we would do well to credit him. I think there shouldn't be a copyright problem since the UK has a broad freedom of panorama. Haukur (talk) 03:04, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

 * According to Pevsner (ed. of 2007, p. 697), there were two artists for these stained glass vignettes: James Eadie-Reid (1868–1928) did most of the east and north sides in 1916–23, while Davies did the west side from 1930 to some time in the 1940s. Eadie-Reid was apparently widely active in ecclesiastical stained glass, like Davies; he designed for the Gateshead Stained Glass Co. We have a series of images of the complete windows on Commons that do ascribe many to Eadie-Reid, but we obviously can't just rely on that ascription. However, the V&A has designs by him for some Worcester vignettes, for example the consecration of Diuma, but not including the death of Penda. Those may suffice to determine whether the Penda scene is on one of the two sides he worked on; or a visit, or another publication. I didn't see mention of the different sides in the pdf, but I think the V&A and Pevsner together cast doubt on the accuracy of the pdf when it ascribes all the scenes to Davies. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Very interesting! We'll get to the bottom of this... Haukur (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Penda of Mercia


text:
River Dargle

The River Dargle is a river that flows from the Wicklow Mountains in Ireland to the Irish Sea. It forms Powerscourt Waterfall, receives the Glencree and Glencullen Rivers, and later the Glenmunder Stream / County Brook, and the Swan River at Bray, and reaches the sea at Bray Harbour.

Course
The Dargle rises in the Wicklow Mountains, Ireland, on the southern slopes of Tonduff 642 m. It flows down the Glensoulan hanging valley, to fall over the 121 m Powerscourt Waterfall. The Dargle then flows through the Glencree valley where it is fed by the River Glencree, before flowing east for a further 13 km. It receives the Glencullen River, and later the Glenmunder Stream, also known as the County Brook or Ballyman Stream. A final small tributary, the Swan River, joins opposite the People's Park, Little Bray. The final 1 km section reaches the Irish Sea at Bray Harbour.

Name
The river's name in Irish, An Deargail, refers to the tint of red in the rocks at its source (the Irish word dearg means red).

Battle of Bloody Bank
In August 1401 the O'Byrne clan of County Wicklow, who periodically raided Dublin, encamped a large mercenary army, composed mainly of their relatives, the O'Meagher clan, on the banks of the Dargle near Bray. The authorities in Dublin received advance warning of the intended raid from the Walsh family of Carrickmines, whose lands stood directly in the path of the mercenary army. Led by John Drake, who was three times Lord Mayor of Dublin, the citizens of Dublin supported by the Walsh clan, scored a decisive victory, commemorated as the Battle of Bloody Bank, over the O'Byrnes and O'Meaghers on the banks of the Dargle. The slaughter was so terrible (one estimate puts the death toll at 4000, although this was probably an exaggeration) that the area became known as Bloody Bank until it was renamed in the nineteenth century as Sunny Bank. The outcome greatly improved the security of Dublin, and seriously weakened the power of the O'Byrne clan.

Cultural references
Sir Walter Scott visited the area in 1825 and mistakenly assumed that Dargle was the name for any glen, etc. He used the word in his novel Redgauntlet seven years later: Glen, nor dargle, nor mountain, nor cave, could hide the puir hill-folk.

About 1838 the eminent judge Philip Cecil Crampton, who lived at St. Valery House, by the Dargle, became a supporter of the temperance movement: to show his fidelity to the cause, he emptied the entire contents of his wine cellar into the river.

The folk song Waxies' Dargle makes an indirect reference to the river. Non-religious holidays in Dublin - especially tradesmen's days off - were traditionally referred to as a "Dargle Days" (from the habit of the Irish upper classes of travelling to the banks of the Dargle to picnic and engage in field sports such as tennis, on such days). The "Waxie's Dargle", on the other hand, is a humorous reference to the annual outing of the Dublin shoe-makers and repairers (who were known as "Waxies", from their habit of periodically running a ball of wax along the string as they stitched) to Irishtown on the River Dodder.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: River Dargle


text:
CLL

CLL is an abbreviation that can stand for:
 * Canadian Lacrosse League
 * Chronic lymphocytic leukemia
 * Collington railway station, a railway station in Sussex, England
 * Community language learning
 * Easterwood Airport, Texas, USA, IATA code

title: CLL


text:
Public Policy Institute of California

The Public Policy Institute of California is an independent, non-profit research institution. Based in San Francisco, California, the institute was established in 1994 by Bill Hewlett, of Hewlett-Packard, Roger Heyns, and Arjay Miller, with a $70 million endowment from Hewlett.

Research by the institute focuses on population issues, the economy, governance and public finance. The PPIC also conducts polls of public opinion on issues related to California public policy. It disseminates its research to state, local, and federal officials, as well as non-profit and private sectors leaders, public media, and the general public. It has organized conferences to focus on significant policy issues, such as the effects of California ballot propositions.

The institute has a visiting fellows program for scholars and a summer intern program for graduate students.

title: Public Policy Institute of California


text:
Near-Earth Asteroid Tracking

Near-Earth Asteroid Tracking (NEAT) was a program run by NASA and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, surveying the sky for near-Earth objects. NEAT was conducted from December 1995 until April 2007, at GEODSS on Hawaii (Haleakala-NEAT; 566), as well as at Palomar Observatory in California (Palomar-NEAT; 644). With the discovery of more than 40 thousand minor planets, NEAT has been one of the most successful programs in this field, comparable to the Catalina Sky Survey, LONEOS and Mount Lemmon Survey.

NEAT was the successor to the Palomar Planet-Crossing Asteroid Survey (PCAS).

History

The original principal investigator was Eleanor F. Helin, with co-investigators Steven H. Pravdo and David L. Rabinowitz.

NEAT had a cooperative agreement with the U.S. Air Force to use a GEODSS telescope located on Haleakala, Maui, Hawaii. GEODSS stands for Ground-based Electro-Optical Deep Space Surveillance and these wide field Air Force telescopes were designed to optically observe Earth orbital spacecraft. The NEAT team designed a CCD camera and computer system for the GEODSS telescope. The CCD camera format was 4096 × 4096 pixels and the field of view was 1.2° × 1.6°.

Beginning in April 2001, the Samuel Oschin telescope (1.2 m aperture Schmidt telescope at Palomar Observatory) was also put into service to discover and track near-Earth objects. This telescope was equipped with a camera containing 112 CCDs each 2400 × 600. This was the telescope that produced the images leading to the discovery of 50000 Quaoar in 2002, and 90377 Sedna in 2003 (published 2004) and the dwarf planet Eris.

In addition to discovering thousands of asteroids, NEAT was also credited with the co-discovery (recovery) of periodic comet 54P/de Vico-Swift-NEAT and of the high proper motion Teegarden's star. The C/2001 Q4 (NEAT) comet was discovered on August 24, 2001 by NEAT.

An asteroid was named in its honour, 64070 NEAT, in early 2005.

Discoveries
1996 PW was discovered on 1996 August 9 by a NEAT automated search camera on Haleakalā, Hawaii. It was the first object that was not an active comet discovered on an orbit typical of a long-period comets. This raised the possibility it was an extinct comet or an unusual asteroid.

title: Near-Earth Asteroid Tracking


text:
Talk:List of porn stars

anyone with the time could refer to excalibur films site or else search google for porn star bios to begin the bios on these cats

---

This website will get too big, I think we should seperate them out. I will work on that. --Jlaro 10:46, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I don't this this division into heterosexual/homosexual actors makes much sense - especially for the girl, since most will do girl-on-girl scenes anyway.

---

Name
If no one objects, I will move this to "List of porn stars", along with for the following reasons:
 * List of female porn stars
 * List of lesbian porn stars
 * List of male porn stars
 * List of gay porn stars
 * 1) "porn star" is the common name, which Wikipedia encourages,
 * 2) "erotic actors" is a euphemism, which Wikipedia discourages, and
 * 3) it is POV to say that they are "actors".  Let's face it: "erotic actors" is a peacock term.

They're not really actors, and it's not erotica we're talking about. The most commonly used term is "porn", so let's stick with that.

The question of many porn stars being "gay for pay" only is addressed in the first paragraph of the gay porn stars list which notes that this is a list of people who appear in "gay porn", not that they are gay stars. I'll make this change in the coming week or so. Zeromacnoo 21:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Does appearance in a single scene of a porn movie make one a "porn star"? I realize that that is is the common term, but it seems like a wild exaggeration to apply the term to everyone who appears, no matter how small their part. -Will Beback 02:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Where do we put names of transexual porn stars, especially when they have appeared on screen both before and after genital surgical reassignment? Stachman 15:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Huge Change
This is easily changable, but there is a category which is more completely regarding this. It is Category:Lists of porn stars. I'm going to change this to a redirect page. Feel free to revert my changes.--Torourkeus 19:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of porn stars


text:
Ross Castle

Ross Castle (Caisleán an Rois) is a 15th-century tower house and keep on the edge of Lough Leane, in Killarney National Park, County Kerry, Ireland. It is the ancestral home of the Chiefs of the Clan O'Donoghue, later associated with the Brownes of Killarney.

The castle is operated by the Office of Public Works, and is open to the public seasonally with guided tours.

History
Ross Castle was built in the late 15th century by local ruling clan the O'Donoghues Mór (Ross), though ownership changed hands during the Second Desmond Rebellion of the 1580s to the MacCarthy Mór. He then leased the castle and the lands to Sir Valentine Browne, ancestor of the Earls of Kenmare. The castle was amongst the last to surrender to Oliver Cromwell's Roundheads during the Irish Confederate Wars, and was only taken when artillery was brought by boat via the River Laune. Lord Muskerry (MacCarthy) held the castle against Edmund Ludlow who marched to Ross with 4,000 foot-soldiers and 200 horse; however, it was by water that he attacked the stronghold. The Irish had a prophecy that Ross could never be taken until a warship could swim on the lake, an unbelievable prospect.
 * Ross may all assault disdain
 * Till on Lough Lein strange ship shall sail.

At the end of the wars, the Brownes were able to show that their heir was too young to have taken part in the rebellion and they retained the lands. By about 1688, they had erected a mansion house near the castle, but their adherence to King James II of England after the Glorious Revolution caused them to be exiled. The castle became a military barracks, which remained so until early in the 19th century. The Brownes did not return to live at Ross but built Kenmare House near Killarney.

There is a legend that O'Donoghue leapt or was sucked out of the window of the grand chamber at the top of the castle and disappeared into the waters of the lake along with his horse, his table and his library. It is said that O'Donoghue now lives in a great palace at the bottom of the lake where he keeps a close eye on everything that he sees.

Governors
Governors of the garrison at Ross Castle included:
 * –1652: Pierce Ferriter
 * Sir John Peyton, Bt (died 1675)
 * c. 1679: Colonel Sir John Edgeworth
 * c. 1705: Colonel Richard Hedges
 * 1715: John Sterling
 * 1721: William FitzMaurice, 2nd Earl of Kerry (died 1747)
 * 1753–1762: Lieut-General John Folliot
 * 1762: Sir Francis Lumm, 1st Baronet (died 1797) (High Sheriff of King's County, 1755)
 * –1801: Lieut-General Charles Eustace (1736-1801) (MP for Fethard, Wexford)
 * 1801–1835: Lieut-General Sir Henry Johnson

Basic structure
The castle is typical of strongholds of Irish chieftains built during the Middle Ages. The tower house had square bartizans on diagonally opposite corners and a thick end wall. The tower was originally surrounded by a square bawn defended by round corner towers on each end.

Front entrance
The front entrance was a small anteroom secured by an iron grill or 'yett' at the outer wall. The yett could be closed from the inside via a chain that could then be secured even if the front door was closed. This room provided small side access holes and a "murder-hole" above which allowed the defenders to attack anybody in the room.

The front door, on the inside of the anteroom, was constructed of two layers of thick Irish oak, one layer 90 degrees to the other with the boards riveted together. If the door was a single layer with the wood fibres going in a single direction, it would have been possible to split the door. The second cross-layer prevented that. The door opened inward and was backed by two heavy beams fitted into the stone structure.

Windows
Windows at the lower levels were vertical thin slits preventing entrance into the structure but allowing persons inside to aim and fire arrows or guns at attackers. The windows on the top levels were larger to allow in light. It was felt that attackers would not be able to scale to those heights so larger windows were safe.

Machicolation
Machicolations were stone structures at the top of the castle protruding out from the wall with a hole in the floor. There are two on Ross Castle, one over the front door and another on the back wall. The one at the front would allow defenders to drop stones or boiling oil on attackers at the front door, the only entrance to the castle.

Parapet
The parapet at roof level is 'crenellated' providing ups, 'merlons' and downs, 'crenels', to allow defenders to hide behind the merlons while firing arrows or guns through the crenels.

Inner rooms
The first floor was used for storage.

The second floor was a living space for the house attendants and guards. Straw was spread on the floor to sleep on. There was typically no furniture.

The third floor was for food preparation and living and eating space for the house attendants and guards.

The fourth floor was the sleeping and living space for the chieftain and his family. The fourth floor had an arched stone roof supporting a stone floor of the fifth story as compared to the wood beam floors of the lower stories.

The fifth floor was the great room where the chieftain ate and entertained. This room was also the last sanctuary as it had a stone floor as a fire break from fire in the lower floors.

title: Ross Castle


text:
Buckfast Tonic Wine

Buckfast Tonic Wine is a caffeinated alcoholic drink consisting of fortified wine with added caffeine, originally made by monks at Buckfast Abbey in Devon, England. It is now made under a licence granted by the monastery, and distributed by J. Chandler & Company in Great Britain, James E McCabe Ltd in Northern Ireland, and Richmond Marketing Ltd in Ireland. It is based on a traditional recipe from France. The wine's distributor reported record sales of £43.2 million as of March 2017.

Despite being marketed as a tonic, Buckfast has become notorious in some parts of the United Kingdom for its association with ned culture and antisocial behaviour. High retail sales have been recorded in Lurgan, Northern Ireland, as well as the Central Lowlands in Scotland which includes Glasgow and the surrounding areas of East Kilbride, Hamilton, Blantyre, South Lanarkshire, Cambuslang, Airdrie and Coatbridge.

History
The wine, which is still manufactured using many of the same ingredients, is based on a traditional recipe from France. The Benedictine monks at Buckfast Abbey first made the tonic wine in the 1890s. It was originally sold in small quantities as a medicine using the slogan "Three small glasses a day, for good health and lively blood".

In 1927, the Abbey lost its licence to sell wine. As a result, the Abbot allowed wine merchants to distribute on behalf of the Abbey. At the same time, the recipe was changed to be less of a patent medicine and more of a medicated wine.

The wine, which comes in distinct brands depending on the market, has achieved popularity in working class, student, and bohemian communities in the United Kingdom and Ireland. In the Republic of Ireland, Buckfast is packaged in a darker bottle, has a slightly lower alcoholic strength, and lacks the vanillin flavouring present in the British version. Buckfast sold in Northern Ireland, where it has been nicknamed "Lurgan champagne", is the same as that sold in the rest of the UK.

Versions
Buckfast contains 15% alcohol in the 750 ml green-bottled UK version, and 14.8% in the brown-bottled Republic of Ireland version, which equates to roughly 11.25 UK units of alcohol.

Both versions of the drink contain phosphate and glycerophosphate, each of these as the sodium and/or potassium salt.

The "brown bottle" Buckfast sold in Ireland has a caffeine content similar to an espresso coffee (60 mg/100 ml) and higher than Red Bull (32 mg/100 ml). The UK-sold "green bottle" Buckfast has a caffeine content higher than black tea but lower than coffee (37,5 mg/100 ml).

Sold exclusively within the Republic of Ireland.
 * Buckfast Tonic Wine (brown bottle)

 * Fortified wine, 14.8% alcohol
 * Sodium and potassium glycerophosphates – both measured at 0.65% w/v
 * Disodium phosphate
 * Caffeine – 0.055% w/v
 * Sulphite preservatives

Sold in the United Kingdom.
 * Buckfast Tonic Wine (green bottle)

 * Fortified wine based aperitif, 15% v/v.
 * Sodium glycerophosphate, an emulsifier.
 * Dipotassium phosphate, a protein stabiliser
 * Disodium phosphate, a stabiliser and emulsifier.
 * Caffeine, 0.0375%w/v
 * Vanillin

Antisocial image
In certain parts of Scotland, Buckfast is associated with drinkers who are prone to committing anti-social behaviour when drunk, especially drinkers under 18 years old. The drink has a very high caffeine content, with each 750 ml bottle containing the equivalent of eight cans of cola. It has been suggested that this may cause it to act as a stimulant, while removing inhibitions, self-control and a feeling of having drunk enough. Research into similar drinks have failed to find clear evidence for the latter effect. A diet of four bottles a day has been described in a Scottish court as 'not conducive to a long life'.

The beverage has entered the popular lexicon with nicknames such as "Wreck the Hoose Juice",  "Commotion Lotion",  "Cumbernauld Rocket Fuel", "Mrs. Brown", "Buckie Baracas", "Coatbridge Table Wine", "Jakey Juice", and a bottle of "What the hell are you looking at?" It has earned the unofficial slogan, "Buckfast: gets you fucked fast". The drink's prominence within the "Buckfast/Buckie Triangle" – an area east of Glasgow between Airdrie, Coatbridge and Bellshill – has raised concern. The glass bottle has been blamed for allegedly contributing to litter and providing drunkards with a weapon.

Several Scottish politicians and social activists have singled out Buckfast Tonic Wine as being particularly responsible for crime, disorder, and general social deprivation in these communities. Although Buckfast accounts for only 0.5% of alcohol sales in Scotland, it is responsible for 80% of public intoxication incidents. There have been numerous calls for the drink to be banned, either throughout the country or in certain areas or shops, made more expensive to dissuade people from buying the product, or sold in plastic bottles to reduce glassing incidents. Helen Liddell, former Secretary of State for Scotland, called for the wine to be banned.

In 2005, Scottish Justice Minister Cathy Jamieson suggested that retailers should stop selling the wine. On a subsequent visit to Auchinleck within her constituency, she was greeted by teenagers chanting, "Don't ban Buckie". All of these initiatives have been countered by lawyers acting for Buckfast distributors, J. Chandler & Company, in Andover. A further consequence was that Buckfast sales increased substantially in the months following Jamieson's comments.

In September 2006, Andy Kerr, the Scottish Executive's Health Minister, described the drink as "an irresponsible drink in its own right" and a contributor to anti-social behaviour. The distributors denied the claims and accused him of showing "bad manners" and a "complete lack of judgement" regarding the drink. Kerr met with J. Chandler & Company to discuss ways of lessening Buckfast's impact on west Scotland but the talks broke up without agreement. Three months later, Jack McConnell, First Minister of Scotland, stated that Buckfast had become "a badge of pride amongst those who are involved in antisocial behaviour." In response the distributors accused the Scottish Executive of trying to avoid having to deal with the consequences of failed social policy and the actual individuals involved in antisocial behaviour by blaming it on the drinks industry."

In January 2010, a BBC investigation revealed that Buckfast had been mentioned in 5,638 crime reports in the Strathclyde area of Scotland from 2006 to 2009, equating to an average of three per day. In 2017, Scottish Police reported there had been 6,500 crimes related to the drink in the previous two years. One in 10 of those offences had been violent and 114 times in that period a Buckfast bottle was used as a weapon. A survey at a Scottish young offenders' institution showed that of the 117 people who drank alcohol before committing their crimes, 43 per cent said they had drunk Buckfast. In another study of litter around a typical council estate in Scotland, 35 per cent of the items identified as rubbish were Buckfast bottles.

In 2016, a sheriff said there was a "very definite association between Buckfast and violence" while sentencing a man for hitting a 15-year-old boy over the head with a bottle at a birthday party. In January 2018, a trial at the High Court in Edinburgh heard that a man had consumed lager and a whole bottle of Buckfast before ferociously stabbing a workmate.

In July 2017, the British trade magazine The Grocer reported that increased sales of Buckfast in southeast England had pushed the drink up to 91 on the UK's top 100 alcoholic brands. The increased sales followed a marketing campaign to improve the drink's image.

In 2017, thousands of empty Buckfast bottles were recovered during a clean-up of the Claddagh Basin in Galway, Ireland.

Manufacturer's response

The monks of Buckfast Abbey and their distribution partner, J. Chandler & Company, deny that their product is harmful, saying that it is responsibly and legally enjoyed by the great majority of purchasers. They point out that the areas identified with its acute misuse have been economically deprived for decades and Buckfast represents less than one per cent of the total alcohol sales across Scotland. Abbot of Buckfast Abbey, David Charlesworth, has said that the tonic wine his monastery produces "is not made to be abused".

In February 2013, J. Chandler & Company applied to the Court of Session in Edinburgh to stop Strathclyde Police from marking bottles of Buckfast so they could trace where under-age drinkers bought them. A company spokesman complained, "This is discrimination at the highest level. Buckfast is no more involved in crime than any other brand of alcohol". A former head of the Scottish Police Federation said: "Buckfast, the distributors and the lawyers who act on behalf of the monks refuse, point blank, to take any responsibility for the antisocial behaviour that's caused by the distribution and the consumption of Buckfast. They even refuse to change the glass bottles to plastic bottles despite overwhelming evidence that large areas in play parks and certain areas in Scotland are littered with this green glass".

In February 2014, the case was settled without any judgment being made by the court. Assistant Chief Constable Wayne Mawson of Police Scotland apologised to J. Chandler & Co for asking a shopkeeper to stop selling Buckfast and gave written undertakings not to include the product in any bottle-marking scheme, unless it has "reasonable grounds" for doing so, and "not to request licensed retailers, situated anywhere in Scotland, to cease stocking for sale Buckfast Tonic Wine".

In 2016 sales of Buckfast Tonic Wine reached record yearly profits of £8.8 million. The abbey trust, which is a shareholder of the Hampshire-based wine's distributor and seller, J. Chandler, gets a royalty fee for every bottle sold. Although the trust declined to release specific sales figures, it said it "strives to work with J. Chandler and Co to ensure that the tonic wine is marketed and distributed responsibly".

Buckfast Day
In 2015, a "National Buckfast Day" was set up by fans to honour the tonic wine. The organisers designated the second Saturday of each May National Buckfast Day. The organisers decided to rename the day World Buckfast Day for 2016. By its third year, several celebratory events were held on different continents around the world.

title: Buckfast Tonic Wine


text:
Goran Višnjić

Goran Višnjić (born 9 September 1972) is a Croatian-American actor who has appeared in American and British films and television productions. He is best known for his roles as Dr. Luka Kovač in ER and Garcia Flynn in Timeless, both NBC television series. For ER, he and the cast were nominated for two Screen Actors Guild Awards. He is the son-in-law of Croatian film director and former head of Croatian Radiotelevision (1991–95), Antun Vrdoljak.

Early life
Višnjić was born on 9 September 1972 in Šibenik, SR Croatia, SFR Yugoslavia. He has one sibling, an elder brother, Joško. His father, Željko, was a bus driver, and his mother, Milka, worked in a market. He appeared in plays throughout his childhood and made his screen debut at the age of 16 in the controversial Yugoslav film, Braća po materi (1988), playing a young Ustasha.

In 1990, at the age of 18, Višnjić served one-year of obligatory military service in the Yugoslav People's Army as a paratrooper. Only weeks after his military discharge in 1991, as Yugoslavia began to dissolve, he joined the nascent Croatian Ground Army. After leaving the army, he moved to Zagreb to study at the Academy of Dramatic Art.

Career
Višnjić was the youngest actor to be chosen for the title role in Shakespeare's Hamlet at the Dubrovnik Summer Theatre Festival. Originally cast as Laertes and understudy to Hamlet, he took over the role when the star dropped out of the production shortly before the first performance. He portrayed the doomed prince from 1994 to 2000, winning several Orlando Awards (the equivalent of the Tony Award). During an episode of ER, he demonstrated his expertise in the part of Hamlet, by reciting an excerpt from the "To be, or not to be" soliloquy in Croatian.

Prior to ER, he found work in local TV productions and landed a Tuborg beer commercial that aired in Europe. Višnjić also had small speaking roles in films such as The Peacemaker, Practical Magic and Committed. In 1998, he appeared in Madonna's music video "The Power of Good-Bye", and had a cameo in the movie Rounders. It was his role as Risto, the Bosnian driver in Welcome to Sarajevo that led then-producer John Wells to offer him a role as a doctor to replace the departing George Clooney in the sixth season of ER in late 1999, eventually becoming the show's male lead by the start of season 12, having taken over from the departing star Noah Wyle, who left after the finale of season 11. By season 14, however, he was only making a limited number of appearances, before completely leaving the show early in season 15 (15x03: "The Book of Abby").

While starring on ER, Višnjić worked on other projects. He co-starred in The Deep End; starred in and co-produced The Last Will; voiced Soto in Ice Age and starred in the British film Close Your Eyes (2002), alongside Shirley Henderson and Miranda Otto. In 2004, he starred in the television miniseries Spartacus and the Croatian film Long Dark Night. He next appeared with Jennifer Garner in Elektra. In 2005, Višnjić was one of the four finalists for the role of James Bond, eventually losing out to British actor Daniel Craig, with whom he would appear in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

In 2009, Višnjić appeared alongside Carla Gugino in a segment of the film New York, I Love You, an anthology set in New York. Višnjić's segment Apocrypha was directed by Andrey Zvyagintsev. The segment was cut from the theatrical release of the film but was included in the DVD version. He next starred in the film Helen, alongside Ashley Judd as Judd's character's husband David in the drama, which made its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival.

Višnjić appeared in the historical drama The Courageous Heart of Irena Sendler, about a young Polish woman who saved the lives of many Jewish children in wartime Warsaw, filmed in Riga, Latvia. It was produced for Hallmark Hall of Fame and aired on CBS on 19 April 2009. He completed a role in Mike Mills' independent film, Beginners. In late 2009, he was cast as Samson in the miniseries The Deep, shown on BBC One in 2010.

He appeared as Andrija Hebrang in the historical drama Tito on Croatian television. He later appeared in the unsold pilot of ABC's Boston's Finest, playing a disgraced cop who works with a female officer to solve crimes while trying to clear his name. He also appeared in the two-episode season three finale of the television series Leverage, as international crime financier Damien Moreau, his first guest appearance on an English-language television program.

In 2011, he played Dragan Armansky, the head of a security agency, in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and he has signed on to play this role for the entire film trilogy produced and distributed by Sony Pictures Entertainment. He was featured on a four-episode arc of the American television series Pan Am; he played a Yugoslavian attaché to the United Nations.

In 2014, Goran played John Woods, the husband of Molly Woods, in Extant, produced by Steven Spielberg. Although the series was renewed in late 2014, Višnjić left the series early in the second season.

From 2016 to 2018, he played former NSA asset Garcia Flynn in NBC's time travel television series Timeless.

In 2019, Višnjić portrayed Ante Gotovina in the Antun Vrdoljak-directed film . His performance, along with the film itself gained overwhelmingly negative reviews  with many critics, including Milivoj Jukić and Jurica Pavičić calling his portrayal "the worst performance of his career". The critically and commercially panned film was screened at the Pula Film Festival.

Visnjic played Nikola Tesla in the twelfth series of Doctor Who, appearing in the fourth episode, "Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror", first broadcast on 19 January 2020.

In early 2020, Višnjić was cast as Count Dracula in the unsold ABC drama pilot The Brides, which was written by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa.

Recognition
Višnjić was named People magazine's Sexiest Import in 1999 and "One of TV's Sexiest Men" in the June 5–11, 2005 TV Guide. He was ranked #18 in Croatian-based monthly film magazine Hollywood in Best Croatian Male Movie Stars of All Time list in November 2005. He was also named as the Best Croatian actor in 2004 according to the votes of the visitors of internet magazines, for his role in the movie Duga mračna noć, according to the votes of Croatian newspaper Večernji list.

Personal life
He has supported a number of medical institutions in Croatia through the donation of money and equipment. In 2008 he appeared on the nationally broadcast American benefit program Stand Up to Cancer. He served as one of the faces of ER on NBC's long-running The More You Know campaign, appearing in public service announcements discussing topics such as family time and tolerance.

His wife, Eva (born Ivana Vrdoljak), is an artist and sculptor, and the daughter of film director Antun Vrdoljak, who controversially headed Hrvatska radiotelevizija from 1991 to 1995. The couple have two adopted children and one biological child. They resided in Los Angeles, California, until 2021, and also have a home on the Croatian island of Hvar. Višnjić acknowledged paternity of a daughter, Lana Lourdes Rupić, whom he fathered in 2006 with a Croatian woman, Mirela Rupić.

In his spare time, Višnjić enjoys swimming, diving and fencing.

In September 2015, Višnjić and his wife announced that they had sold their home in Los Angeles for a sum of about $5 million.

He supported Croatian Democratic Union candidate Mato Franković for Mayor of Dubrovnik in the 2017 elections.

In 2021, Višnjić and his wife moved from Los Angeles to the UK.

title: Goran Višnjić


text:
Fiat 124

The Fiat 124 is a small family car manufactured and marketed by Italian company Fiat between 1966 and 1974. The saloon superseded the Fiat 1300 and was the basis for several variants including a station wagon, a four-seater coupé (124 Sport Coupé), and a two-seater convertible (124 Sport Spider)

The Russian-built VAZ-2101 "Zhiguli" and its many derivatives (known universally as the Lada outside the Soviet Union) were based on the Fiat 124, and are the best known of the many licensed variants of the 124 manufactured around the world. The Lada constitutes the vast majority of 124 production, and makes it the fifth best selling automotive platform in history.

The 124 was superseded in its home market by the Fiat 131, launched in 1974.

History
Following its introduction in 1966 with a publicity stunt, with Fiat filming the dropping of the car by parachute from a plane, the 124 won the 1967 European Car of the Year. As a clean-sheet design by Oscar Montabone, the chief engineer responsible for its development, the 124 used only the all-synchromesh gear box from the Fiat 1500. The 124 featured a spacious interior, advanced coil spring rear suspension, disc brakes on all wheels and lightweight construction.

A 5-door station wagon variant (named 124 Familiare on its home market) as well as the 124 Sport Spider variants debuted at the 48th Turin Motor show in November 1966. A few months later, at the March 1967 Geneva Motor Show, the 124 Sport Coupé completed the range. The two Sport models were powered by an all-new 1.4-litre dual overhead camshaft engine producing 90 PS at 6,500 rpm.

The 124 Special
In October 1968, Fiat launched the 124 Special; like Fiat's other Special models, it was an upmarket, better appointed and higher performance variant of the standard saloon. A month after, in November, it was displayed at the 50th Turin Motor Show alongside its larger sibling, the new 125 Special. In addition to a 1.4-litre overhead valve engine, the 124 Special notably introduced all-new 5-link (four longitudinal, one transverse) solid axle rear suspension in place of the original 3-link design. Starting from late 1968 the same improved rear axle was adopted by both Sport models.

In detail the Special's 1,438 cc type 124 A2 engine had the same bore and stroke of the Sport Coupé and Sport Spider engines (80 × 71.5 mm), but eschewed the dual overhead camshafts of the two sportscars in favour of the more conventional overhead valve setup from the 124 saloon. With a downdraught (instead of the 1.2's sidedraught) twin-choke Weber 32 DHS or Solex C32 EIES carburettor and a 9.0:1 compression ratio, engine output was 70 PS at 5,400 rpm and 11.2 kgm Nm of torque at 3,300 rpm. Fiat advertised a top speed of over 150 km/h. Besides engine and rear axle, notable mechanical changes from the regular 124 were an alternator replacing the dynamo, an uprated clutch, standard 155R13 Pirelli Cinturato radial tyres, and the addition of a vacuum servo to the all-disc braking system.

Visually the Special could be immediately distinguished from the standard model by its new, rectangular grille with four inset round headlamps. Less evident differences were larger vertical bumper over-riders, wheels with round ventilation holes as on the Sport models, new flush door handles, different tail lamps with integrated reflectors, and a central back-up light. The interior featured a redesigned padded dashboard with an oval binnacle housing two round instruments and a car radio console, a steering wheel without horn ring, new door cards, and more supportive seats.

1970 revisions and the 124 Special T
At the November 1970 Turin Motor Show, Fiat introduced a round of updates for the entire saloon and estate 124 range, as well as a new model variant—the 124 Special T.

All models had gained air outlets added to the C-pillar for better ventilation, and a split brake circuit; while some features previously exclusive to the 124 Special such as servo-assisted brakes, back-up light and an alternator were made standard across the range. Berlina and Familiare both had a new grille with alternated chrome and black horizontal bars, and larger bumper over-riders. Additionally the Berlina had large, nearly square tail lamps made up by two stacked rectangular elements. The renewed Special sported a completely redesigned front end. A black, square-mesh radiator grille was crossed by a horizontal bright bar joining the dual headlamps; each of the four round lamps was set in its own square, bright-edged housing. The grille-headlamps assembly was flanked by the turn indicators. Front and rear the bumpers had lost their over-riders, replaced by full-width rubber strips. At the rear the lamps were also new—still horizontal and rectangular in shape unlike the ones used on the standard saloon—and the whole tail panel was surrounded by a chromed profile. Inside there was a new dashboard with imitation wood inserts, carpets instead of rubber mats, and cloth upholstery. The "T" in 124 Special T stood for twin cam, hinting at the car's 1,438 cc dual overhead camshaft engine, derived from the Sport Coupé and Spider but in a milder state of tune. Coded 124 AC.300, this engine had revised valve timing and fuel system and produced 80 PS at 5,800 rpm and 11.45 kgm Nm of torque at 4,000 rpm. According to the manufacturer top speed was 160 km/h. Externally the Special T was identical to the Special, save for model badging at the rear.

Engines
Power came from a 1.2 L (1,197 cc) Fiat OHV inline-four engine. Also, there were the 124 Special with a 1,438 cc OHV engine and the 124 Special T with 1,438 cc and 1,592 cc twin cam OHC engines. The twin cams are connected to a four-speed and five-speed gearbox.

 * 1200 (1,197 cc) – 60 PS – 66 PS (1966–1974)
 * 1400 (1,438 cc) – 70 PS – 75 PS (1968–1974)
 * 1400 Special T (1,438 cc) Twin cam – 80 PS (1968–1972)
 * 1600 Special T (1,592 cc) Twin cam – 95 PS (1973–1974)
 * Abarth Rally (1,756 cc) Twin cam – 128 PS (1972–1973)
 * 2000 (1,920 cc)  Twin cam – 115 PS (1979)

Foreign production
Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Fiat sought to extend its worldwide reach by entering into various collaborative agreements with smaller manufacturers (mostly in developing nations) by licensing the 124 design following its discontinuation in mainstream Western European markets. The best known (and most produced) of all the 124 derivates is the Russian-built Lada, which has to date, sold over 15 million units.

Soviet Union/Russia
In 1966, Fiat entered into a collaborative agreement with the Soviet government to establish car manufacture in the Samara region of Russia. Fiat was contracted to take part in the creation of the massive VAZ plant in the newly created town of Togliatti, named after the Italian communist leader of the same name. The factory produced an adapted version 124R of the 124, known as the VAZ-2101 "Zhiguli" (sold as the Lada 1200/1300 in export markets), until 1982, and 1200s until 1987. Based on the 124, they were modified at more than 800 points, the major modifications having an entirely different OHC engine, hydraulic clutch, drum brakes at the rear, modified suspensions, etc. Early modifications include the VAZ-2102 (station wagon), 2103 (Lada 1500), 2106 (Lada 1600) and 21011 (Lada 1300). The updated and restyled versions of the 124-based design were produced until September 2012, as the VAZ-2104, 2105 and 2107 – marketed as the Lada Riva in UK markets. Production of this line reached 17,332,954 cars, this being the second largest production volume for a car in automotive history.

India
The Fiat 124 was also introduced in India by Premier Automobiles Limited. In 1981 Premier began the process of acquiring the production tooling for the facelifted SEAT 124 D after authorisation from Fiat. The model was released in the autumn of 1985 as the Premier 118NE. The car was very similar to the 1966 version except for a few cosmetic changes to the front and rear. However, Premier incorporated the Nissan A12 (1,171 cc and 52 bhp) powertrain instead of the original Fiat engine along with a Nissan manual gearbox. Added in 1996, there was also a version called the 1.38D which sported a diesel engine, built under license from Fratelli Negri Macchine Diesel Sud of Italy.

Near the end of production an improved model called Viceroy was released in collaboration with Peugeot. Production ended in 2001.

Malaysia
The 124 was also built at the Kilang Pembena Kereta-Kereta (KPKK) factory in Tampoi, Johor, since the latter half of 1967. The cars were distributed by Sharikat Fiat Distributors. Originally only available with the 1.2-liter engine with 60 hp-metric, in late 1969 the sportier 124 Special joined the lineup. This version has twin headlamps, and the larger, pushrod 1.4-liter engine with 70 hp-metric. In late 1971, about a year after its introduction in Italy, the twin-cam 124 Special T also joined the Malaysian production line.

Spain
In the frame of the licence agreement between SEAT and Fiat, it was produced and sold in Spain with the name SEAT 124 from 1968 to 1975. Also a clone from the 124 Special with some elements from Fiat 125 was produced from 1969 to 1975 with the 1438 cc engine along with the twin-cams known as the "FUs" 1,600 cc (1970–72), and 1,800 cc (1972–75) branded as SEAT 1430. In 1975 when Fiat stopped production of the Fiat 124, the SEAT 124 had a minor facelift done by Giorgetto Giugiaro changing the aesthetics of the car by changing the round headlamps to rectangular design and integrating taillights into the body, car was known as the SEAT 124D and remained in production until 1980 with the Sport versions now codenamed the "FLs", FL-40/45 1,600 cc 90HP, FL-80/82 1,800 cc 114HP and FL-90 1,919 cc 114HP The car was very successful in Spain, and was sold in both the four-door and station wagon versions.

Bulgaria
The Fiat 124 was also produced under the name Pirin-Fiat in Lovech, Bulgaria, on the basis of complete knockdown (CKD) kits between 1967 and 1971.

Turkey
The Fiat 124 was also produced by Tofaş under the names "Murat 124" between 1971-1977 and "Serçe" ("sparrow" in Turkish) between 1984 and 1994, in Bursa, Turkey. 134,867 Murat 124s were produced between 1971 and 1994. Tofaş concurrently produced the Fiat 131 series under the name Murat 131 between 1976 and 2002. Today, the company manufactures bona fide Fiat models.

Korea
The Fiat 124 was also produced under the name Fiat-KIA 124 by Asia Motors in South Korea, between 1970 and 1975. In total 6775 units were assembled.

Egypt
From 2002 to 2007, Lada-Egypt company built at least 9,000 cars (2,200 in 2006) in the shell of VAZ-2107 (Riva), and it continues in 2012.

124 Cabriolet
At Salone dell'Automobile of Torino in 1966, Carrozzeria Touring presented a convertible version of Fiat 124 saloon. It was the last car built by Touring. Only one example was made. Reactions were positive, but the Fiat CEO terminated this project in favour of the Pininfarina-styled 124 Sport Spider.

Fiat ESV 2500
The ESV 2500 is an Experimental Safety Vehicle that Fiat developed in 1972 based on its 124 model. It had a totally new 5-door three-box design, with an extra strong passenger cell, but used the mechanicals of the standard 124 with 1438 cm3 engine. The ESV 2500's weight was 43 % higher than that of the original 124.

title: Fiat 124


text:
Talk:Adrenal medulla

Possible topics for expanding this stub:

 * Phylogeny of adrenal medulla
 * Comparative anatomy of adrenal medulla in vertebrates
 * Pathology of the adrenal medulla
 * Surgeries related to adrenal medulla
 * Pharmacology related to adrenal medulla
 * Physiology of medullary stimulation by sympathetic nervous system
 * Nicotonic receptors in the adrenal medulla (D.B. McKay, Ph.D.)
 * Roles of beta1-adrenergic and beta2-adrenergic

Possible (on-line) sources specifically related to adrenal medulla:

 * http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/mp/journal/v7/n9/abs/4001143a.html
 * http://webpages.ull.es/users/isccb12/ChromaffinCell/History.html
 * http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec2000/975989582.An.r.html
 * http://www.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/2001/Acta%20HP/451.pdf
 * http://www.psych.uic.edu/education/courses/brain/porges2.pdf
 * http://www.ishc.net/summary/supplements/neurons.html
 * http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11850634&dopt=Abstract
 * http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6618635&dopt=Abstract
 * http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2497994&dopt=Abstract
 * http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Clubs/class_2006/documents/vmd414b/414B-Vulliet.doc

When I complete the review of multiple printed sources (for accuracy's sake and to avoid copyright violations) I hope to further contribute to this stub. SoCal 17:15, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Adrenal medulla


text:
Talk:Winter Line

Winter Line / Gustav Line confusion
Does anyone know the exact relationship between the names Gustav Line and Winter Line? I find that some sources call it one, and some another, with no explanation. DJ Clayworth 17:18, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here's what I find. Some sources consider the Winter Line to be separate from the Gustav Line. Some sites consider the Winter Line to be north of Rome. Some consider them to be the same thing. DJ Clayworth 19:09, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The Germans appeared to talk about the Winter Line when Kesselring's strategy was being proposed i.e. holding Rome for as long as possible by preparing a Winter Line to the south to be held at all costs. In the event they built three lines: Gustav, Hitler and Caesar which I gues all the Winter Lines. (?) Stephen Kirrage 23:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Duplication
This article is duplicated but in more detail by the Battle of Monte Cassino page. Some consolidation is needed. Stephen Kirrage 16:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There's something really unbalanced here. This article is pretty short, when it should really be quite long, as it should describe all the attempts to break the line, especially those outside the Battle of Monte Cassino. I find that Bernhardt Line is really long, whereas the line itself is a subsidiary part of the Winter Line, but Gustav Line, which is the more major part, is just a redirect to this short article. 199.71.183.2 17:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Not really. It's a result of the confusing nomeclature of the various lines. Depending on what source you use Winter, Gustav, Bernhardt (and their alternative names) are almost interchangeable. This has been discussed on various talk pages and we seem to have ended up with Winter line as a catch-all covering Gustav, Bernhardt and Hitler. The Winter Line page is just a description of the line but not the battles which appear in the other individual articles. To try to pull it together we created the Winter Line sub-campaign box which appears on all the Winter Line-related articles. The fact that the Bernhardt Line (as defined in Wikipedia) is relatively short but has a substantial article reflects the very major combat required to break the line. Note also that some sources define the Bernhardt Line as crossing the whole country ie including the Gustav defenses on the east side of the country until such time as the defenders moved back to Monte Cassino at which point the whole lot gets redifined as Gustav....confusing. I've made a small addition to the Winter Line article to try and clarify this. Regards. Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 20:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Winter Line