text:
Talk:Boy

Edit request from 222.252.103.22, 26 September 2011
A nipper originally was a boy send out by an adult (often his own father) as pickpocket, later a boy assistant to various professions such as a carter, still later (recorded since 1859) a boys' age term roughly equal to toddler The "nipper" word link to the page Nipper, which is "the dog model for the painting His Late Master's Voice". That is completely irrelevant to the word mention in the sentence. Please remove the reference link.

222.252.103.22 (talk) 10:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Done  Chzz  ► 03:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

✅

Edit request from, 21 January 2016
Please change "vagina" to "vulva" in the first paragraph. The vagina is a tube connecting the labia minora and the cervix. The vulva encompasses the entire external female reproductive organ.

[Insert place name] Boy
Another context where "boy" can be used regardless of age, which as of yet I don't see in the Article, is to denote the geographic origin of a male. For example, I myself am now 23 (a good 5 years past legal adulthood at 18) and on some occasions I refer to myself as a "Pennsylvania Boy." This has absolutely nothing to do with my age, but it does refer to my sex and the fact that I'm from Pennsylvania.

For a more famous example, the Beatles are often called "the Boys from Liverpool" or more rarely "the Liverpool Boys," again reflecting nothing to do with age but only the fact that all 4 are male and all 4 grew up in Liverpool, England. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 22:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because...

Only the picture is to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cattrap (talk • contribs) 09:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Contested deletion
The picture File:Indian_school_boy.jpg has to be removed, since it points towards a particular person and his/her location is pin-pointed in the caption of the picture.So the picture seems to be of personal use; and is useless considering this article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indian_school_boy.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cattrap (talk • contribs) 09:44, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have restored the earlier image. I haven't taken the time to figure out when the change was made.  If you desire, you can continue nominating the boy on the stairs for deletion on commons. Ryan Vesey 03:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

lack of citations, limited coverage of topic, overview section
This article includes a large number of assertions that seem like common sense but that lack citations. This topic is pretty well documented, so we should be able to find expert opinion about what boys are. The article also doesn't spend much time describing boys. Instead, it spends a lot of time discussing the various ways that the term "boy" is used. The disambiguation statement says that this article is about young male humans, and I agree that that's what it should be about. Maybe we need a secondary page for "Boy (word)," as we have for "Man." On a related note, the article has an "overview" section, which is contrary to style guidelines. The lead should be the overview (see WP:LEAD). Leadwind (talk) 01:29, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Lede image
I don't frankly see the point of the lede image, which could be either of a boy or a girl and which is not an especially striking image in any case. An image of a nude infant boy in which the penis is visible might have some encyclopaedic value in the context. Perhaps the Wikipedia administrator, whose new born baby boy is apparently pictured (discussed here) may provide one? C1cada (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It's clearly defined what does and doesn't pass for an image of a boy here. The image currently in the lead is clearly a baby picture (birth–23 months) and not that of a boy (2–12 years). Also there is a policy (somewhere) about using images of identifiable people. Slight  Smile  16:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The policy is here Photographs of identifiable people. The relevant guidance here is that in the case of children, the parent's or guardian's consent must be given, which plainly must be the case here. A more relevant Commons issue is Not educationally useful. My real beef about this is that it's not an especially fine image (I absolutely don't mean that in any spiteful way) and we lose an opportunity to display one that is. I think that's such a pity. c1cada (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit request
Please change Boi (gender) to Boi (slang) per page move. Thanks. 82.132.234.79 (talk) 15:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done —  16:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2015
edit to the above

41.138.195.43 (talk) 14:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The uploader resides in Bangalore, India, so it only makes sense that he took this photo in that or near that location. Also, you have not provided any sources to provide this photo was taken in Africa. --I am  k6ka  Talk to me!   See what I have done  17:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would have agreed with k6ka (I was the editor originally to link this fine image into the article - it's curious how few fine images there are of boys on Commons). However the original uploader has now clarified. c1cada (talk) 03:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Please fix: nonsensical sentence.
This is from the 2nd paragraph: "The latter most commonly applies to adult men, either considered in some way immature or inferior, in a position associated with aspects of boyhood, or even without such boyish connotation as age-indiscriminate synonym."

This sentence doesn't make ANY sense...especially that last part

-- CONCLUSION: the TLDR (read ANALYSIS first if you have the time*)

My translation of the sentence: "One of the primary uses of the word 'boy' is to indicate that a person is defined by the gender role 'boy', and it is used most commonly to classify immature or inferior adult males as 'boys'. It can also be used to distinguish an adult male as a 'boy' even if he doesn't have any 'boyish' qualities (such as being immature or associated with 'boyish' things)."

If that is what the sentence means then it needs to be re-written because the original sentence is confusing to the point of being unintelligible. Also, if that is what the sentence means, I disagree! The most common use of 'boy' is when referring to actual boys, not when insulting or being sarcastic about men....

Lastly, I think that the sentence should just be deleted. Why does the intro section of the "Boy" Wikipedia page need to talk about the frequency of the phenomenon of calling a grown man a boy? Just say: "Boy" is used to indicate sex and/or cultural gender roles, and depending on the circumstances the term can be applied to people who are not typically classified as "boys" to call attention to certain hobbies, lifestyle choices, or characteristics they posses which may be considered abnormal.

---
 * ANALYSIS: I broke the sentence down and tried to figure out what it is supposed to mean. Read this before CONCLUSION if you have the time.

1) "The latter most commonly applies to adult men,"

= this refers to the assertion that "The term boy is...used to indicate...cultural gender role distinctions..." from the previous sentence. So basically what this part of the sentence means is: when a person refers to someone else as a "boy", they are usually using the word to indicate that an adult man (who has certain qualities that are brought up in the next part of the sentence) should be considered to have the identity of "boy" (again, because of certain qualities that he has).

2) "either considered in some way immature or inferior, in a position associated with aspects of boyhood,"

= these are some of the qualities that the adult man who is being called a boy has, which I mentioned (in bold) in the analysis of 1). So basically what this part of the sentence mans is: the reason that the adult man is called a boy is because he is viewed as immature or inferior, or because he is associated with something that only boys are normally associated with.

3) "or even without such boyish connotation" 4) "as age-indiscriminate synonym."

= When something of this general form is written after a list, it usually means that the situation is applicable even if the conditions of the list aren't met. I'm finding it hard to explain, so here's an example of what I mean (with the equivalent parts of the sentence numbered):

"1) All children are wonderful, 2) either with smiling or laughing faces, curious minds full of wonder, 3) or even without such endearing characteristics 4) as precociousness and innocence."

So what that means is that children are great because they smile and are curious, and also that children are great even if they don't have any endearing characteristics. I have no idea what "or even without such boyish connotation as age-indiscriminate synonym" is supposed to mean, but I can attempt to decipher it...assuming if it follows the same general format as my example about children. In essence what it would mean is that a man can be classified as a boy even if he isn't seen as immature or inferior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:C7C9:CD00:39C7:4753:9E00:2546 (talk) 07:56, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that the sentence is unclear and poorly written. I have removed it.  While the use of the word boy to describe adults should be discussed in this article (and is treated extensively further down), it does not need to be in the intro. --Acjelen (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017
Bjburke (talk) 20:10, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 20:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2017

still missing 84.158.125.98 (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 04:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2018
boys learn better in co-ed schools while girls learn better in girls only schools. 144.132.99.46 (talk) 05:12, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: Do you have a reliable source to support your statement?  DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  05:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sak ura Cart elet Talk 22:15, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Small fry and half-pint, from "Non-function specific analogous terms"
In the US, "small fry" and "half-pint" are not inherently insulting, nor specific to boys. In fact, when used by a parent they are terms of endearment. (In literature, see Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House series, in which "Pa" refers to Laura as "Half-Pint" frequently.) Older siblings might use these as terms of endearment as well, though they can also be used antagonistically. Most of these terms can be used in a diminutive sense, but that depends on the speaker and the context. "Small fry" and "half-pint" belong in this list, but they should not be described as "rather insulting." Like all other epithets, context is everything. Dcs002 (talk) 19:28, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

brain
The most apparent difference between a typical boy and a typical girl is the brain, not genitalia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:11AF:457:FD00:54A3:FD9C:2CC:884B (talk) 02:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Multiple issues
I have tagged the article for multiple issues. First, the article is missing a ton of major categories of information, including information on boys' physical, mental, and social characteristics and development. (There is much more information that could be added, including boys in sports, literature, film, etc.) The article gives an inordinate amount of attention to the various ways the word "boy" is used, while offering remarkably little information about boys themselves. This makes the article unbalanced, as does the uncritical inclusion of highly debatable and controversial information on transgender issues. The article has been tagged since 2009 for containing references, but very few inline citations; nevertheless, many entire sections of the article remain completely unsourced (I have added a tag about that, too). Some of the content may be original research; it's impossible to tell, because almost nothing is sourced. SunCrow (talk) 08:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I have added a tag requesting expert attention. SunCrow (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree with most of this, the article definitely needs a lot of work. But regarding the "debatable and controversial information on transgender issues", it is important to follow mainstream sources and not to present a sense of false balance (WP:FALSEBALANCE.) Wandering Wanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Added another tag regarding the lede's self-contradictory definition of "boy." SunCrow (talk) 04:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * How is it self-contradictory, exactly? WanderingWanda (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * In any case, note that the Template:Multiple_issues page says: if an article has many problems, please consider listing only the most important. A lengthy list is often less helpful than a shorter one. Remember that this tag is not intended as a badge of shame. I'm going to go ahead and prune it a bit. WanderingWanda (talk) 04:54, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I have fixed the problem regarding self-contradiction. SunCrow (talk) 06:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily have a problem with your shortened lead, however, I disagree with your reasoning. I still don't see any contradiction. I'm guessing you thought that this sentence:

 * The most apparent difference between a typical boy and a typical girl is the genitalia

 * contradicts this sentence:

 * However, some intersex children with ambiguous genitals, and transgender children who were assigned female at birth, may also be classified or self-identify as a boy.

 * But it's not a contradiction to say that typically boys are one way, however there are certain exceptions where they are another way. WanderingWanda (talk) 06:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

 * I have added a tag stating that the article needs a rewrite. I have removed tags regarding sources and POV that are obsolete. SunCrow (talk) 05:26, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2019
Please cite the first paragraph in the "Etymology" section as coming from the etymology source that is listed at the bottom of the article because that is where the information comes from. Wiki.funness (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC) Wiki.funness (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done – Þjarkur (talk) 11:27, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Difference between the Boy page and the Girl Page
You can take a look at the girl's page to get an idea of how boys are treated in the modern world. Lack of concern shown for the boys is deplorable. There's a section on girls page about child labor and how it affects girls but it is common knowledge boys are the majority of child labor and in fact, they are the 90% of hard adult level child laborers. Issues to add
 * An alarming number of boys dropping out of schools and falling behind girls.
 * sexual abuse
 * Genital mutilation of boys.
 * Child soldiers.
 * Lack of privacy for boys in schools, camps, hospitals compared to girls.
 * and many others.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aksoullanka (talk • contribs) May 10, 2019 (UTC)

 * Collapsed rant per WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TPO. Mathglot (talk) 03:01, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Moved OR sections to Talk page
I'm moving some sections that are riddled with assumptions and original research here to the talk page, where we can attempt to separate legitimate, verifiable content from OR, and then reinstate the content, properly sourced. The sections are available in the history, of course, but they can be more easily worked on, here.

Much of this information has been present for a long time; see for example this 2006 version, back when sourcing was much less observed than it is now. But the fact that it has been here so long unchallenged, does not exempt it from our verifiability policy. Editors here may want to consider another approach (which I would support), namely WP:TNT.

Many occasions occur when an adult male is commonly referred to as a boy. A person's boyfriend or loverboy may be of any age; this even applies to a 'working' call-boy, toyboy (though younger than his lover). Reflecting the general aesthetic preference for youth, one says pretty boy (e.g. in the nickname of Charles Arthur "Pretty Boy" Floyd, who committed his first bank robbery at age 30) or Adonis (name of a mythological youth) even when a male beauty is clearly of riper age. In terms (used pejoratively or neutrally) for homosexuals such as batty boy (alongside "batty man"; from "bottom") or "bum boy", age is not essential, but the connotation of immaturity can strengthen insulting use.

Groups of adult male friends engaged in male bonding are often called "the boys". It is most common to refer to men, irrespective of age or even in an adult age group, as boys in the context of a team (especially all-male), such as old boys for networking of adult men who attended the same school(s) as boys, or as professional colleagues, e.g. "the boys at the office, - police station etc." (often all adults). The members of a student fraternity can be called frat(ernity) boys, technically preferable to the pleonasm frat-bro(ther), and remain so for life as adults, after graduation. In sports 'the boys' commonly refers to the teammates; e.g., UK football managers quite often refer to their players as "The boy so-and-so" and this usage is by no means restricted to the youngest players, though it is rarely applied to the most senior.

In U.S. urban slang, particularly in African American and Latino slang, the term boy is used with a possessive as meaning friend (my boy, his boys), presumably as a reduction of homeboy, originally a male from the same area.

In some cases, the word boy is used merely to designate the age of the (male) person, irrespective of the function, as in altar boy, a minor acting as liturgical acolyte, or in Boy Scouts, an organisation specifically for boys. Thus the compound -man can then be replaced by -boy, as in footboy; or boy is simply added, either as a prefix (e.g., in boy-racer) or as a suffix (e.g., in Teddy Boy).

An adult equivalent (with or without -man) is not to be expected when -boy designates an apprentice (for which some languages use a compound with the equivalent of boy, e.g. leerjongen 'learning boy' in Dutch) or lowest rank implying specific on the job training if promotion is to be obtained, as in kitchen boy. Similarly schoolboy only applies to minors; the modern near-synonym pupil originally designated a minor in Roman law as being under a specific adult's authority, as in loco parentis.

Expressions such as "boys will be boys" (i.e., a male always retains a tendency for boyish games or mischief) allude to stereotypically ascribed characteristics of boys and men; in the term tomboy, a woman's (according to the counterpart-gender stereotype) uncharacteristically bold nature is even described solely by comparing her to a boy.

The use of "boy", (like kid) in fantasy or descriptive nicknames for adult men, may also connote to an informal or naughty image of boyhood.

In such terms as 'city boy' or 'home boy', the age notion is at most anachronistic, as they indicate any male who grew up (or by extension lived a long time) in a certain environment.

Section Usage for adults moved here from article.

. ..

The term 'our boys' is commonly used for a nation's soldiers, often with sympathy. Given the physical demands of battle, recruits are preferably in their physical prime, but adult professionals remain included in the term as long as they remain in service. A case where the term is formally used for (adult) men is sideboy, a member of an even-numbered group of seamen posted in two rows at the Quarterdeck when a visiting dignitary boards or leaves a ship. In the Ottoman Empire, the young, mainly Christian military recruits for life (often forcibly enlisted by 'devshirme') were officially called acemi oglanlar ("novice boys").

Thus "-boy" can enter the nickname for a particular nation's soldiers, e.g. the US (infantry) doughboy, or a specific force, e.g. Fly-boy is slang for an airman.

Furthermore, specific terms refer to minors used in the armed forces:
 * Drummer boy
 * Ship's boy is a minor in naval training; boy seaman refers to specific, low-paid apprentice ranks, notably in the Royal Navy; until the middle of the twentieth century, they were the only Navy staff subject (like their civilian age-peers, at home and in school) to physical punishment, usually spanking, traditionally administered on the bare bottom (as in English public schools; the adults were lashed on the backside above the waist), either formally (ordered in court martial, publicly executed on deck) or, more often but less severely, summary; the same was true of a midshipman, also a minor, but indicated with "-man" rather than "-boy", possibly reflecting their higher status as future naval officers. Sometimes in ex-servicemen's parades, an old man is described as "ship's boy" to say that he served so classed in the Navy as a boy.

However, when a minor in military employ is considered (historically often far less restrictive then nowadays) too young to be a 'normal' warrior (illegal under present UN rules, but without precise enforceable age limits), he's called boy soldier, regardless whether he's used as an armed fighter or only in logistic or similar functions such as bearer.

Section §Specific uses and compounds§§Military moved here from the article. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

. ..

 * Bellboy was originally a ship's bell-ringer, later a hotel page.
 * Busboy is a rank in restaurants etc. below (head) waiter, fitting for trainees but may be held by ripe adults, even under younger (e.g. better qualified) superiors
 * Cabana boy
 * Cabin boy
 * Hall boy
 * Hamam oğlanı "bath boy" (also called Tellak) working in a Turkish bath.
 * Houseboy, or often "boy" for short, became a common term for domestic staff, notably non-European natives in the Asian and African colonies, adopted as such in other languages, e.g. in Dutch and French (also in the Belgian colonies).
 * Kitchen boy, below the cook(s); in a large household there may be specific functions, such as spitboy
 * Linkboy like linkman meant torch- or other light-bearer
 * Page, from the Greek παις pais, again in many languages, already in Hellenistic times παίδες βασιλικοί paides basilikoi 'royal (i.e. court) boys'.

 * Altar boy (see above)
 * Choir boy designates a boy (always a minor) singer in a choir; here applies a specific physiological, artistically relevant criterion: they remain a musical category of their own (boy soprano, also known as a treble) until their voice 'breaks', during puberty, to join one of the adult male voice registers (countertenor (closest to treble), alto, tenor, baritone, or bass); only the castrato may (not guaranteed) remain a soprano as an adult man; historically the term was designed for all-male (mainly church) choirs, with men with already broken voices (often former choir boys), in modern times it also applies to mixed choirs.
 * Boys' game

 * Cowboy originally designated a herdsboy employed as cowherd, but lost the age notion, first retaining the connotation of inferior status, later applying to the whole ranch life culture; by contrast "shepherd's boy" (rather herding sheep or goats, representing less capital) remained restricted to minors.

Often the term "boy" describes positions of the trainee type, such as stable boy (a junior stable hand).
 * Best boy in a film crew denotes the chief assistant, usually of the gaffer or key grip, next in line to be promoted; an example of a use where the term is traditionally unaltered in crediting female incumbents
 * Breaker boys were boys between 8 and 12 years old who worked as coal breakers in U.S. coal mines. The job resulted in a high number of fatal and debilitating injuries and the practice of employing children as coal breakers largely ended by 1920 due to the efforts of the National Child Labor Committee.
 * Office boy and copy boy refer to a young(est) employee (i.e. lacking experience), in training and/or performing menial services such as carrying typewritten texts between offices of a newspaper.
 * Even into the early 20th century, the British empire systematically employed boy clerks, including a specific rank of boy copyist, recruited by examination (despite the name, requiring schooling) and reserved for candidates aged 15–18, not retained in that rank after the age of 20.

Certain jobs need so little training or formal qualifications that they can easily be performed as student jobs, and thus tend to be filled mostly or exclusively by minors, as it would not pay to employ an adult at or above minimum wage. Thus an equivalent word with the compound man (or similar) may be the rarer one, or even inexistent. Examples include delivery boy, errand boy, messenger boy and various specific terms naming the product to deliver, such as paperboy (closest adult counterpart postman), pizza boy (alongside pizzaman), or to serve, such as a potboy (drinks waiter, or a gather of empties). In other cases the compound mentions a crucial attribute of his task, e.g. ball boy (more recently also girls) in tennis. In some cases his small, light body makes a boy a better choice, e.g. as jockey where no weight handicap is in force.
 * A nipper originally was a boy send out by an adult (often his own father) as pickpocket, later a boy assistant to various professions such as a carter, still later (recorded since 1859) a boys' age term roughly equal to toddler

Four subsections of section §Specific uses and compounds moved here from the article. Mathglot (talk) 21:49, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

 * There is a lot more unsourced OR in the article going back a decade or more that could be removed, but now I wonder if trying to "fix" the article is really the best approach, or whether it would be easier just to WP:NUKEIT and start over. So, I'm going to hold off moving any more unsourced content here, for the time being. Please comment at .  Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Blow it up and start over
This article has so much unsourced original research (see previous section) and poor internal organization, that I'm not sure there's much here worth saving. This may be one of those rare cases, where it's better to just blow the whole thing up, and start over from scratch.

I think an incremental approach where one tries to navigate from where the article is now, to a decent subsection hierarchy, and to separate unsourced original research from valid statements and organize the whole thing into a coherent whole, may be far more difficult than just starting over. I support a restart from zero, and wanted to hear what others thought. Mathglot (talk) 22:07, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Mathglot, I agree. There isn't much worth saving here. As per my April 25 post above ("multiple issues"), I think it would be ideal to have expert involvement as well. SunCrow (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't really object to this idea, either. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Possible future Boy article
I wanted to start a conversation here, where we could talk about a possible organization of the article, if we decide to start over. Here are some thoughts. Mathglot (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Summary style
In thinking about a possible future Boy article, and what it might contain, I first checked EB 1911 (it has no article on 'Boy'), and the WP articles Child and Girl. This obviously merits a lot more thought, but at first blush, I'm thinking that we should follow Summary style, in which the article "Child" is the parent article, and has [will have] brief, summary sections entitled "#Boy" and "Girl" (t.b.a.), and then the articles "Boy" and "Girl" should each be organized as child articles of "Child".

To some extent, at the organizational level, it would be nice if Boy and Girl had similar, parallel section hierarchies, and avoided duplication with "Child". (This is not to imply that the organization at "Girl" in its current form is ideal, or even good; I only mean that the two articles should look similar in organization at the very highest level, with such differences as are appropriate to the subjects.)

Material common to both "Boy" and "Girl" should be moved up to "Child", leaving a brief summary in the child articles, with the sections in the "Boy" and "Girl" articles linking to the "Child" article with a Further template. Conversely, the "Child" article could have Main or Details templates linking to the "Boy" and "Girl" articles, explaining further details of the differences.

At the same time, the "Boy" (and "Girl") article should be considered the Parent article for some topics which already have detailed articles about relevant subtopics. For example, "Boy" (and "Girl") should have a section on #Puberty; but it should be just a brief paragraph or two outlining the basics, as this topic is already covered in significant detail in other articles. In this case, the "Boy#Puberty" section might have a Main link at the top of the section to Puberty.

More detail about how to implement summary style articles can be found at Summary style. Mathglot (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Mathglot, all of that sounds fine and reasonable to me. SunCrow (talk) 00:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Mathglot, do you perceive boy as a word whose opposite is girl (as everyday society does) or do you perceive it as a word whose opposite is man (as you're pointing towards based on how you're proposing the article)?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:41, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If I had to pick an opposite, I guess "girl", yes. But rather, I prefer to think of the concepts "boy" and "girl" taxonomically as sister terms at the same level of hierarchy, with the parent concept in common being "child". Does that answer your question? I don't see what relevance the idea of "opposites" have in improving the article, though. I think the Summary style paradigm is a good model that would work well in these three articles, but it is not the only way to approach it. Mathglot (talk) 05:12, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Hi, Mathglot. I have not heard from you in awhile in regard to this article, so I am touching base. Are you still interested in working on it? If so, it seems to me that the idea you laid out up above (with the "child" article as a broad overview and the "boy" and "girl" articles offering specifics) is reasonable, but might be more work than is necessary. Also, it might involve disrupting the "girl" article quite a bit. So I thought another possibility might be to look at the table of contents for the "girl" article and see if it could be adapted for use here. Here is the table of contents for the "girl" article:

1 Etymology 1.1 Usage for adults 2 History 2.1 Girls' education 2.2 "Coming of age" customs 2.3 Preparing girls for marriage 2.4 Trafficking and trading girls 3 Demographics 4 Biology 4.1 Gender and environment 4.2 Teenage pregnancy 5 Girls' education 5.1 Educational environment and expectations 5.2 Obstacles to girls' access to education 6 Sex segregation 7 Violence against girls 8 Health 9 Girls and child labor 10 International initiatives for girls' rights 11 Art and literature 12 Popular culture 13 See also 14 References

Here is a (revised as of 12-11-19) proposed table of contents for the "boy" article:

1 Definition 2 Biology 3 Health 4 History 4.1 "Coming of age" customs 4.2 Preparing for marriage 5 Demographics 6 Education 7 Religion 8 Labor 9 Art and literature 10 Sports 11 Popular culture 12 Etymology and use 12.1 Usage for adults 13 See also 14 References

I welcome your thoughts and those of other editors. SunCrow (talk) 17:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

''Proposed table of contents is updated above. SunCrow (talk) 03:55, 12 December 2019 (UTC)''

New sources
I note that Rjensen has added numerous additional sources to Further reading. This is exactly what we need, regardless which approach we take going forward. Mathglot (talk) 05:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks. let me highly recommend the very rich encyclopedia on Boyhood in America Rjensen (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Reality check
It's not possible in the present climate to write a sane and decent article about what it is, or could be, to be a boy. The current politically correct position is that males are toxic. Boys are males, so that's an end to the matter. The article should be reduced to a stub which merely states that boys are the precursors to the vileness and political incorrectness of being an adult male. – Epipelagic (talk) 05:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Epipelagic, I hear your concern and frustration. I sincerely hope your conclusion is mistaken. We will see. SunCrow (talk) 17:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * (>2 years later) This section is not a reality check. I think that comment above yours (made by someone who has never openly edited this article) was counterproductive, feeding negative attitudes, promoting a political agenda, and clearly not an attempt to improve the article or our encyclopedia. I think it was inappropriate for this talk page. I just found this discussion, and I'm sorry it ended so abruptly. This article just needs a little help. I think you and Mathglot put a lot of thought and effort into this badly needed rewrite idea, and it seems to have shut down abruptly. I guess I just wanted to encourage you if you have the time & energy! Dcs002 (talk) 05:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Former BoyhoodStudies.com Forum
Gee, I really want this page to be as good as or better than the Wikipedia page on Girls. But anyways, clicking on each of the External links, the second one "BoyhoodStudies Forum" now goes to some St. Louis (USA) news website (https://www.stl.news/). I don't want to delete stuff off of this mediocre page, but until there is an actual, maybe alternate similar topic, I am deleting that external link, if that 's ok. Jimj wpg (talk) 08:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Fine by me, Jimj wpg. SunCrow (talk) 08:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * How about "as good as"? I don't know why you think it should be better than the article on Girls. Liz Read! Talk! 16:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We should always strive to be better, thereby inspiring the editors of the girl article to do likewise! (Wouldn't it be nice to get this article anywhere near that point?) It's not competition, but I like the idea of better mutual examples, improvements, and more harmonization between the articles. Of course we shouldn't actually have one article that's better than the other, but both articles are always works in progress, waiting for their next improvement. I'm sorry the rewrite discussion above ended so abruptly, and I don't like the way it ended. Dcs002 (talk) 04:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Pre-RfC Woman lead image discussion
There is a discussion to select image options for an RfC for the lead image at Woman. Discussion at Talk:Woman/sandbox. Kolya Butternut (talk) 09:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2021
there some spelling error in the 4th paragraph Hanger 12345 (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: what spelling error? Volteer1 (talk) 15:27, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Please specify the errors. —  A. Shohag (pingme or Talk) 13:09, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Race
That section consumes more space than does Definition, etymology, and use. Nicmart (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

This page should not include an African child as a sample of boy.
Calling africans boy has it roots in slavery. What kind of insensitivity is this that you would include an African child picture as sample of a boy? Why not use a caucasian child? 2001:569:52B2:1300:3843:AD71:CF00:CD1E (talk) 05:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * And then someone can complain we used a white person as the first example? Calling a literal child a boy has nothing to do with slavery; it is the norm and very different from use of it towards adults. Crossroads -talk- 21:27, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2023
ParentMap"/>|thumb|A boy smiling Pre3set (talk) 00:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Eejit43 ( talk ) 00:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Use of word "boy" to describe adult men
reverted my edit in which I changed "When a male human reaches adulthood, he is described as a man." to "When a male human reaches adulthood, he is usually described as a man." with the edit comment "Unsourced and as far as I know is generally considered not proper usage, but derogatory."

While it is considered derogatory when used in a racial context, it is definitely not derogatory in all, or even most, contexts. (although derogatory usage is still usage) It is common in many song lyrics, for example: "But I won't stop until that boy is mine" in the song "Paparazzi" by Lady Gaga (which is clearly referring to an adult man, as presumably a paparazzi would be an adult). Or the song "Boy (I Need You)" by Mariah Carey, given that the song is referring to a male who is an object of attraction, and given that Carey was an adult at the time, it is presumable that it is referring to an adult male. Or, the song "Pink Houses" by John Mellencamp, in which someone is referred to as being a "young man" and, a few verses later, is referred to as a "boy" in the verse "Boy, you're gonna be president". Or, for an example of an adult man referring to himself as a "boy" in a song, see "Georgia Boy" by Al Green, which contains the verse "Just a country boy, yeah". It seems to be especially common in Country Music, for another example, "A Country Boy Can Survive" by Hank Williams Jr. contains numerous uses of the word to refer to adult men.

Additionally, it is common for many people to refer to their adult male partners as "boy" as a term of affection or endearment, similarly to how many people refer to their adult female partners as "girl" in the same way. This can be seen, for example, in the common term "boyfriend", which is absolutely commonly used to refer to adult men, and is not considered derogatory. In some gay communities, adult males commonly refer to themselves as "boy", as well. (for an example in an LGBT context, see the alternate spelling "boi", here.)

In addition to the common term "boyfriend", the term can be seen in many common terms and phrases used to refer to adult men. For example "an old boys' club", "country boy/city boy", "good old boy", "golden boy", "backroom boy", "boy toy", "wet boy", I could go on and on...

While there is likely some sort of scholarly source (perhaps the link above from Montclair State University could be a start) discussing this usage of the word, (and I will be searching as I have available time), it is really bordering on being such common usage of the word "boy" as to be self-evident and not necessarily needing a reference. See: You don't need to cite that the sky is blue.

I'm hoping other editors can give their input on this. Vontheri (talk) 04:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 * As I see it, there are two things at play here. First there is the question about the use of the word or expression boy as a reference to men. This could be a matter for a new sub-chapter to the chapter Specific uses, given the right sources are provided. The second thing is the actual sentence in the lead. One new word was added making the sentence like this: When a male human reaches adulthood, he is usually described as a man. Standing alone this sentence dosen't actually speak about whether men sometimes are reffered to as boys, it merely tells us, that the word man isn't always used when referring to a man. Other expressions are occasionally used in reference to man whitout using this exact word, such as for instance "mature male person" (aprox. 172,000 hits in a Google search), "adult male person" (aprox. 352,000 hits in a Google search) and several other expressions, so I see no problem in adding the word usually to the 'original' sentence "When a male human reaches adulthood, he is described as a man", but I have no specific preferences, so if other find that commonly or in general are more suitable I'll find that equally usefull in this specific situation. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 05:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your input. Given that it has been a few days, and no one has raised any objections, I will go ahead and re-add the word "usually" to the sentence.Vontheri (talk) 09:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As a latecomer to this specific issue, I just want to add my support. Usually and generally are appropriate modifiers in that sentence. Man is the expected term, but not the inevitable term. I teach at a middle school in the US, and there is a rather large change in progress concerning the terms of this discussion. Wherever possible (and within reason, of course), this article should avoid absolute language. Dcs002 (talk) 00:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

African boys?
I see the lead picture was recently changed, and I have no problem with that, but it leaves only one African of the >30 boys represented in all the photographs. As Africans and their recent descendants make up a very large portion of the human population, and as racial representation has been discussed here as an issue of concern, I think we should consider finding another way to show more African faces. Right now, 5 of the 8 photographs are of boys the US Census Bureau would consider white. (That includes the Italian, Armenian, and Hispanic boys.)

I think the ultimate answer is to expand the article to make room for more pictures. I can't point to a single picture and say that's the one that should be replaced. Dcs002 (talk) 06:36, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I reverted that change. The picture they used is oddly framed and not in true color, so I don't see the benefit in it. And, it was undiscussed. Crossroads -talk- 19:21, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. That works for me, though I did not object to the change per se, only the under-representation of African boys that seemed evident as a result. I'm happy with this solution, though I still think this article should be expanded more, along the lines of what was discussed above. Dcs002 (talk) 00:55, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Any way to make this statement more flexible??
The "Biology" section says:

''Sex determination[edit] Human sex is determined at fertilization when the genetic sex of the zygote has been initialized by a sperm cell containing either an X or Y chromosome. If this sperm cell contains an X chromosome, it will coincide with the X chromosome of the ovum and a girl will develop. A sperm cell carrying a Y chromosome results in an XY combination, and a boy will develop.''

Please make sure that this statement is NOT saying that "a boy is a boy regardless of whether he'll grow up to be a transgender woman". Georgia guy (talk) 15:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

'Juvenile' instead of 'young'
I'm wondering why, in regards to the 'boy' and 'girl' articles, is the adjective 'young' used instead of 'juvenile', which is the adjective used for articles such as 'kitten' (where a kitten is described as a juvenile cat) and puppy (where a puppy is described as a juvenile dog)? It's just because the adjective 'young' seems vague in this context, it could mean anywhere from a very small child to a man in his early 20s. With the 'man' and 'woman' articles, 'adult ___ human' is concise because an adult is agreed to be someone who has reached the age of majority; usually 18. In law, a person who has not reached the age of majority is a juvenile or minor. So wouldn't either of those words be more concise and align with the 'man' and 'woman' articles? BreakfastSonata (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Group and gender norms
Proposed extension of the article to include not only gender norms, but group norms:

Boys of different ages belong to groups that define their group norms. Boys evaluate other boys in regards to those group norms; conformity to group norms is more important than group membership (non-conforming group members are assessed lower than conforming strangers.

Cautious (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Boy


text:
Ten Years After

Ten Years After are a British blues rock group, most popular in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Between 1968 and 1973, the band had eight consecutive Top 40 albums on the UK Albums Chart. In addition, they had twelve albums enter the US Billboard 200. They are best known for tracks such as "I'm Going Home", "Hear Me Calling", "I'd Love to Change the World" and "Love Like a Man".

Formation: 1962–1966
The band's core formed in late 1960 as Ivan Jay and the Jaycats. After several years of local success in the Nottingham/Mansfield area, they changed their name to the Jaybirds in 1962, and later to Ivan Jay and the Jaymen. Ivan Jay sang lead vocals from late 1960 to 1962 and was joined by Ric Lee in August 1965, replacing drummer Dave Quickmire who had replaced Pete Evans in 1962. Roy Cooper played rhythm guitar and sang from 1960 to 1962. The Jaybirds moved to London to back the Ivy League in 1966. In the same year, Chick Churchill joined the group as keyboard player. That November, the quartet signed a manager, Chris Wright, and changed their name to Blues Trip. Using the name Blues Yard they played one show at the Marquee Club supporting the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band. Alvin Lee and Leo Lyons again changed their name in 1966 to Ten Years After – in honour of Elvis Presley, one of Lee's idols. (This was ten years after Presley's successful year, 1956). Some sources claim that the name was pulled by Leo Lyons from a magazine, advertising a book, Suez Ten Years After (referring to the Suez Crisis).

Ten Years After: 1967–1974
The group was the first act booked by the soon-to-be Chrysalis Agency. They secured a residency at the Marquee, and were invited to play at the Windsor Jazz Festival in 1967. That performance led to a contract with Deram, a subsidiary of Decca – they were the first band without a hit single that Deram signed. In October 1967 they released the self-titled debut album Ten Years After. In 1968, after touring Scandinavia and the United States, they released a second LP, the live album Undead, with a first version of the noteworthy song "I'm Going Home". They followed this in February 1969 with the studio issue Stonedhenge, a British hit that included another well-known track, "Hear Me Calling", which was released as a single (and was covered by the British glam rock band Slade in 1972). In July 1969, the group appeared at the first instance of the Newport Jazz Festival that rock bands were invited to. On 26 and 27 July 1969, they appeared at the Seattle Pop Festival held at Gold Creek Park. On 17 August, the band performed a breakthrough American appearance at the Woodstock Festival; their rendition of "I'm Going Home" with Alvin Lee as lead singer/lead guitarist was featured in both the subsequent film and soundtrack album and increased the group's popularity. In 1970, Ten Years After released "Love Like a Man", the group's only hit in the UK Singles Chart, where it peaked at #10. It was the first record issued with a different playing speed on each side: a three-minute edit at 45 rpm, and a nearly eight-minute live version at 33 rpm. The full studio version song appeared on the band's fifth album, their most successful in Britain, Cricklewood Green. In August 1970, they played the Strawberry Fields Festival near Toronto, and the Isle of Wight Festival 1970.

In 1971, the band switched labels to Columbia Records (US) and Chrysalis (UK) and released the hit album A Space in Time, which marked a move toward more commercial material. It featured the group's biggest hit, "I'd Love to Change the World". In late 1972, the group issued their second Columbia album Rock & Roll Music to the World and, in 1973, the live double album Ten Years After Recorded Live. The band broke up after their final 1974 Columbia album, Positive Vibrations.

Post-break-up, then reunion
In the second half of the 1970s and early 1980s, Alvin Lee toured with a new band he called Ten Years Later.

The original Ten Years After reunited in 1983 to play the Reading Festival, and this performance was later released on CD as The Friday Rock Show Sessions – Live at Reading '83.

In 1988, the members reunited for a few concerts and recorded the album About Time (1989) with producer Terry Manning in Memphis. They stayed together for their longest continuous period, until 2003, though without releasing new material. In 1994, they participated in the Eurowoodstock festival in Budapest.

In 2003, the other band members replaced Alvin Lee with Joe Gooch, and recorded the album Now. Material from the subsequent tour was used for the 2005 double album Roadworks. Alvin Lee mostly played and recorded under his own name following his split from the band. He died from complications during a routine medical procedure on 6 March 2013. Ric Lee is currently in a band called Ric Lee's Natural Born Swingers, along with Bob Hall. In January 2014, it was announced that Gooch and Lyons had left Ten Years After. Two months later, veteran bass player Colin Hodgkinson and singer/guitarist Marcus Bonfanti were announced as their replacements. In October 2017, the band released its most recent studio album, A Sting in the Tale.

Band members

 * Current members
 * Chick Churchill – keyboards (1966–1974, 1983, 1988–present)
 * Ric Lee – drums (1966–1974, 1983, 1988–present)
 * Marcus Bonfanti – guitar, vocals, harmonica (2014–present)
 * Colin Hodgkinson – bass (2014–present)

 * Former members
 * Alvin Lee – guitar, vocals, harp (1966–1974, 1983, 1988–2003; died 2013)
 * Leo Lyons – bass (1966–1974, 1983, 1988–2014)
 * Joe Gooch – guitar, vocals (2003–2014)

Timeline

Discography

 * Ten Years After (1967)
 *  Undead (14 May 1968 Live at Klooks Kleek London)
 * Stonedhenge (1969)
 * Ssssh (1969)
 * Cricklewood Green (1970)
 * Watt (1970)
 * A Space in Time (1971)
 * Rock & Roll Music to the World (1972)
 * Positive Vibrations (1974)
 * About Time (1989)
 * Now (2004)
 * Evolution  (2008)
 * A Sting in the Tale  (2017)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ten Years After


text:
Talk:George W. Bush 2004 presidential campaign

Untitled
Moved page to align with format of U.S. Presidential election, 2004, etc. see Talk:John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 for more. jengod 00:00, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

Nice work Jen. - SV (talk) 03:22, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC) (links Bush campaign, Kerry campaign

 * The name is the way it is because it follows the pattern set by U.S. presidential election, 2004 jengod 22:11, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

Vote!
I seek your input at WikiProject POTUS Campaigns. Please come weigh in. jengod 23:06, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

FY
It took me a while to guess what FY stood for. Would it be over the top for the first usage of it to have 'Financial Year (FY)'? Or to just replace FY with 'Financial Year' for each of the three occurances? Feel free to remove this message later.

 * Since fiscal year (or financial year) is a common economic term I think it would be ackward to replace it. Fortunately there is a wiki for "fiscal year" so I linked the first occurance I saw of FY, does that make it more clear without wordiness? Rbsteffes 22:16, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * When I read it I had no idea what FY meant. (I have to tell that English isn't my maternal language).  Then I clicked the link and felt euhm... "fooled".  I want to be able to click links if I don't understand something or wish more information about it, not to find out that FY 2001 means Fiscal Year 2001.  Adding 8 letters, so the text reads fluently for more users, is worth it.  My opinion. KevinGovaerts 00:37:00, 2005-08-26 (UTC)

Mention of other candidates
Shouldn't there be at least some mention of other candidates that will be in the election? For example, Ralph Nader may end up being critical, as could possibly Libertarian candidate Aaron Russo. Rei 17:37, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Information on those would best be located on a page for the 2004 election itself, not on Bush's campaign. I've added a link to it at the end of the first paragraph of this article.  Vesta 06:37, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Issue positions
Will someone go through the "Issue positions" and pick out the ones which are actually stances from the current campaign, and not actions he's already taken, as well as NPOV and de-"he said, critics say" them? Thanks, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:22, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)

 * The catch is what can be used for reference to differentiate between stances he holds and actions he's taken? This may relate to the question I am asking below. Rbsteffes 19:26, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Actions he's taken determine the stances he holds. Mentioning actions he has taken explains the stances he holds. I can say, "He wants to strengthen the homeland," but doesn't Senator Kerry desire to do the same? Because he is the incumbent president, his actions and performance in the first term are very important in not only his profile regarding the first term, but his election profile as well. How one does while they're in the presidency often also dictates their electability. NeevaN 02:16, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * That's kinda what I was thinking and why I mentioned that below. Actions Bush has taken in the White House and Kerry has taken in the Senate directly affect their electability, but that's not the issue. I think what Meelar is saying is that this is about his CAMPAIGN, not whether or not people believe him, or what his history is.  It should reflect what he promises not what he has done.

Could someone still NPOV the issue positions? This is my first Wikipedia entry/edit and I would like to see how to improve writing in a neutral point of view. NeevaN

 * Thank you for NPOVing my entries. I see more clearly the quality Wikipedia is looking for. --NeevaN 02:58, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

Reference to Previous Campaigns
Should mention of campaign promises made in his previous campaigns and their outcomes be made in this article? Examples Promises kept and promises stalled- Philadelphia Inquirer Tue, Jan. 20, 2004 Rbsteffes 19:25, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Previous campaign promises relate specifically to his 2000 campaign. I would recommend not including promises on this entry, but rather another entry regarding his 2000 election and his first term. However, if it solely deals with his actions he has taken and his stances on issues, include them in this article because they would be relevant. NeevaN 02:03, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

"Memorable Quotations"
Is this really the place for ridicule, especially without citation? I don't want to delete it offhand in reference to NPOV but it seems to me the Memorable Quotations part crosses the line.

 * The quote has been widely cited. I agree it makes him look stupid, but he did say it, and whether or not he actually is stupid is a judgement for readers to make. Others are free to add quotations that reflect well on him. Adam 12:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Ok, but the quote is still has very little to do with the Campaign, which is the topic of this particular article. Perhaps it would be better served as a link to a "Bushism" page or something along those lines.  Not to mention, the quote was delivered to pentagon strategic planners, who DO spend their days thinking of ways America could be harmed.  It's called vulnerability analysis. Rbsteffes

 * He said it in the course of the campaign, and it is plainly campaign rhetoric. And you know that that is not what he meant. Adam 14:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know any such thing. You'll notice though, that I didn't change it, because you are correct was in the course of campaign rhetoric.  I just personally think it's equivalent to posting the images of Kerry's daughter in the see through dresses she wore to some parties under the heading of 'Kerry Family Values'.  It's based on fact, but it's still just an attempt to be insulting.  That's actually why I suggested you put it on Bushisms where it belongs, in my point of view. Rbsteffes  P.S. You can indent to show you are following a thread of coversation with the colon (':')

 * I'm not particularly committed to having the quote or indeed the section in the article. But I do think it falls in a different category than photos of Kerry's daughter. Whether or not a candidate has the intellectual capacity to be President is a real campaign issue, while what dress a candidate's daughter wears is not. It is a fact that Bush's intellectual capacity is widely doubted. The fact that he can say such a moronic thing in public is therefore a legitimate campaign topic. Adam 00:28, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * There is no way this quote belongs on this page. This clearly belongs on the Bushism page. I do not understand how one could put this quote on this page. His "intellectual capacity"??? We're not doing character analysis; we're giving information as if it were an encyclopedia. Memorable quotations are like: "These acts shattered steel, but they cannot dent the steel of America's resolve," "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail," and "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists." The most memorable time of his presidency was the 9/11 attacks. These quotes signaled his idea of recovery, his resolve, and the famous "Bush doctrine." This is no place for one quote that makes him look bad. Completely against NPOV. I'm thinking of acting unilaterally and taking this down, but I want feedback. --NeevaN 02:57, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * The problem with your argument, NeevaN, is that they are "memorable" quotations. Memorable does not necessarily mean a quote that will make others look favorably upon you, it simply means that it is a quote that sticks out in people's memories. That quote certainly sticks out in my mind. I do think that you should add the quotes you have in your post, if you are concerned about the POV issue. If you put up a quote or two that shows him as a competent man, then there will be no NPOV problem. StellarFury 14:41, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If he said those things in the course of the campaign, then you are free to add them to the category. The category of "Memorable campaign quotations" is perfectly legitimate in this article. and an accurate quotation of Bush under that heading cannot be POV. If the quote makes him look bad, that is his fault for saying it, not mine for quoting it. You are free to add quotes that make him look good. Adam 12:27, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The quote has been removed, as this is not an actual quote from Bush's campaign. The line was said at a bill signing, which is a presidential duty, which has little to do with Bush's re-election campaign. Idono 03:00, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Come along now. Are you trying to tell me that a public bill signing ceremony in an election year is not a campaign event? Adam 03:39, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A campaign is a series of operations designed to bring about a particular result. President Bush did not sign a bill as an operation for his campaign, but as a duty of his status of President of the United States. Idono 03:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I conclude from that that you are either extremely naive about politics or else a Republican who doesn't want Bush's dopey quote to appear in this article. Adam 03:52, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand that it is so important for you that this quote be in this particular article. There are other articles about President Bush that this quote may be relevant in, rather than an article about his campaign for re-election.

This article is about Bush's campaign to be re-elected as the United States President in 2004. Do you not realize that this particular "memorable quote" on this subject is irrelevant? Perhaps a more relevant quote for this subject would be a quote where Bush is actually campaigning, not signing a bill. Being a citizen of a United States, and watching the campaigns of both President Bush and many other candidates, I can easily make sense of what President Bush does for his Campaign, and what he does to act as United States President. Idono 04:16, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What total bollocks. Everything a President says and does in public during election year is campaigning. Please do not insult the intelligence of other users here. Adam 06:20, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Idono-- thank you for taking down that quote. It never did belong there. There is a difference between Presidential duty and campaigning, as you have acknowledged. Politics isn't everything. NeevaN

Adam-- Idono has never criticized your intelligence. However, I believe you criticized his when you said "I conclude from that that you are either extremely naive about politics..." If you are so intent on posting that quote on Wiki, put it in a relevant article. NeevaN 07:06, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

Bush's stance on Iran
I guess we also need a section on Bush's stance on Iran. roozbeh 13:43, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)

Stupid page name
George W. Bush presidential campaign, 2004 is a very unnatural page name. 2004 George W. Bush presidential campaign is far more likely to be linked as-is instead of being piped. Why the odd page name? --mav 19:20, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * To replicate structure of U.S. presidential election, 2004, etc. jengod 21:34, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

 * That makes it even more stupid. I should have changed all those page names right after they were first created over two years ago. This ultra idiotic page-naming scheme has spread like a cancer throughout these types of articles. There is no excuse for it. Just because there are a lot of articles that are named that way, does not mean we have to continue doing this or that it can't be changed. I volunteer to help in a grand renaming project. Heck, I could probably fix all US-related articles myself. --mav 00:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I just work here. :) jengod 01:14, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Fake "protected" tag added?
I noticed that ip68-10-25-55.hr.hr.cox.net [68.10.25.55] anonymously added a protected tag to the main article earlier today. Seeing no reason for this, I removed the protected tag, especially seeing as how it was done anonymously. Radman1 19:44, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Passing of Former President Ronald Reagan
I fail to see the relevancy and am inclined to strike this section altogether. I see that RickK has already struck a line or two. Can someone please argue in favor of this section to the 2004 presidential campaign? It appears to be pure speculation, IMHO. Radman1 22:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have no problem with deleting the entire paragraph. RickK 22:37, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

I cannot access the official reelection site
Both yesterday evening at home and this morning at work. I Access it from Western Europe. http://www.georgewbush.com Sockpuppet for work Sockpuppet for work 06:30, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * This appears to be done intentionally by the Bush campaign folks, in order to "guarantee access" to the U.S. voters in expectance of a severe traffic hike during the final days leading up to the election. I've linked in an article.  -- [[en:RaD Man|RaD Man (talk)]] 23:46, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Since yesterday I can not access the proposed non-USA alternative either http://origin.georgewbush.com/ Sockpuppet for work 11:04, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Incidentally the current non-usa alternative has frames with pornographic content advertising. A no-no? Hardwick 11:19, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The bulge
Ha ha, I can't believe this article actually devotes four paragraphs to discussion of the bulge. I wonder if anyone is really going to care about such trivia in 50-100 years from now. —Mike 08:01, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Project Vote Smart
I fail to see need for this article to include the information on Bush's refusal to respond to Project Vote Smart. Who will agree that this information should be removed? 65.100.247.168 02:02, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Updates
Considering the time-sensitive nature of a campaign, I don't know whether updates (see, e.g., the Iraq section) need updating so much as they need a revision of their verb tenses. Fearwig 07:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC) update: made some changes, namely phrasing for neutrality and tense.

Fair use rationale for Image:DebateBulge1.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

History worse ever duo
I wonder How stupid these two goons think we are, They are Criminals And worthless people. They better hope there is no god, Cause the Lies and Murdering And stealing They both are guilty of could send them to hell.along with Rumsfeld They stole the Office of the people, Glad history Has past them by Now maybe we can live like Americans again and not some thugs who works for the Crime Boss GWB and The dick Chenny  Wont shed a tear when these 2 goons past  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.255.63 (talk) 02:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

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text:
User:Rparle

Me

title: User:Rparle


text:
Prayag

Prayag is a historical name of the area near the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna rivers in the modern-day city of Prayagraj in northern India.

It may also refer to:

Localities in Prayagraj

 * a locality in the city of Prayagraj; the city formerly known as Allahabad before 2019
 * Triveni Sangam, the confluence of rivers in Prayagraj, considered sacred in Hinduism
 * Prayag Junction, the main railway station in Prayagraj

Other places

 * Panch Prayag, the five river confluences in northern India considered sacred in Hinduism:
 * Vishnuprayag, also spelled Vishnu Prayag, a town at the confluence of the Alaknanda and the Dhauliganga
 * Nandaprayag, also spelled Nand(a) Prayag, a town at the confluence of the Alaknanda and the Nandakini
 * Karnaprayag, also spelled Karna Prayag, a town at the confluence of the Alaknanda and the Pindar
 * Rudraprayag, also spelled Rudra Prayag, a town at the confluence of the Alaknanda and the Mandakini
 * Devprayag, also spelled Dev(a) Prayag, a town at the confluence of the Alaknanda and Bhagirathi
 * Prayag Film City, film studios in West Bengal, India

People

 * Prayag Bhati (b. 1991), Indian cricketer
 * Prayag Jha (b. 1945), Indian artist specialising in etching

Other uses

 * Prayag India, an Indian sanitaryware manufacturer
 * United Sports Club, a football club in Calcutta, India, formerly called Prayag United

title: Prayag


text:
Talk:Joesph de Maistre

I am surprised a page for this person did not already exist considering his importance anyone who has some more knowledge on him please contribute. GrazingshipIV 00:05, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Joesph de Maistre


text:
User talk:Netochka

Welcome
Hello, welcome to Wikipedia.

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Again, welcome! - Flockmeal 00:05, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Netochka


text:
Fina

Fina or FINA may refer to:

 * FINA (Fédération Internationale de Natation), the original name of World Aquatics, the international governing body for aquatic sports
 * Fina (architecture), a narrow public space immediately alongside buildings
 * Fina, a main character in the Skies of Arcadia video game
 * Fina, a nickname for Trenbolone, an anabolic steroid
 * FINA, the North American Forum on Integration (Le Forum sur l'Intégration Nord-Américaine)
 * Petrofina, a Belgian petroleum company (known as FINA in the United States and the United Kingdom)
 * Saint Fina, a 13th-century saint
 * "Fina" (song), a song by Bad Bunny from his 2023 album Nadie Sabe Lo Que Va a Pasar Mañana
 * Fina Girard (born 2001), Swiss politician and youth climate activist

title: Fina


text:
Sister Rosetta Tharpe

Sister Rosetta Tharpe (born Rosetta Nubin, March 20, 1915 – October 9, 1973) was an American singer, songwriter and guitarist. She gained popularity in the 1930s and 1940s with her gospel recordings, characterized by a unique mixture of spiritual lyrics and electric guitar. She was the first great recording star of gospel music, and was among the first gospel musicians to appeal to rhythm and blues and rock and roll audiences, later being referred to as "the original soul sister" and "the Godmother of rock and roll". She influenced early rock-and-roll musicians including Little Richard, Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and also later guitarists, such as Eric Clapton.

Tharpe was a pioneer in her guitar technique; she was among the first popular recording artists to use heavy distortion on her electric guitar, opening the way to the rise of electric blues. Her guitar-playing technique had a profound influence on the development of British blues in the 1960s. Her European tour with Muddy Waters in 1964, with a stop in Manchester on May 7, is cited by British guitarists such as Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, and Keith Richards.

Willing to cross the line between sacred and secular by performing her music of "light" in the "darkness" of nightclubs and concert halls with big bands behind her, Tharpe pushed spiritual music into the mainstream and helped pioneer the rise of pop-gospel, beginning in 1938 with the recording "Rock Me" and with her 1939 hit "This Train". Her unique music left a lasting mark on more conventional gospel artists such as Ira Tucker Sr., of the Dixie Hummingbirds. While controversial among conservative religious groups due to her forays into the pop world, she never left gospel music.

Tharpe's 1944 release "Down by the Riverside" was selected for the National Recording Registry of the U.S. Library of Congress in 2004, which noted that it "captures her spirited guitar playing and unique vocal style, demonstrating clearly her influence on early rhythm-and-blues performers" and cited her influence on "many gospel, jazz, and rock artists". ("Down by the Riverside" was recorded by Tharpe on December 2, 1948, in New York City, and issued as Decca single 48106 ). Her 1945 hit "Strange Things Happening Every Day", recorded in late 1944, featured Tharpe's vocals and resonator guitar, with Sammy Price (piano), bass and drums. It was the first gospel record to cross over, hitting no. 2 on the Billboard "race records" chart, the term then used for what later became the R&B chart, in April 1945. The recording has been cited as a precursor of rock and roll, and alternatively has been called the first rock and roll record. In May 2018, Tharpe was posthumously inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an Early Influence.

Childhood
Tharpe was born on March 20, 1915, as Rosetta Nubin in Cotton Plant, Arkansas, to Katie Bell Nubin and Willis Atkins, who were cotton pickers. However, researchers Bob Eagle and Eric LeBlanc give her birth name as Rosether Atkins (or Atkinson), her mother's name being Katie Harper. Little is known of her father except that he was a singer. Tharpe's mother Katie was also a singer and a mandolin player, deaconess-missionary, and women's speaker for the Church of God in Christ (COGIC), which was founded in 1897 by Charles Harrison Mason, a black Pentecostal bishop, who encouraged rhythmic musical expression, dancing in praise and allowing women to sing and teach in church. Encouraged by her mother, Tharpe began singing and playing the guitar as Little Rosetta Nubin at the age of six and was cited as a musical prodigy.

About 1921, at age six, Tharpe had joined her mother as a regular performer in a traveling evangelical troupe. Billed as a "singing and guitar playing miracle", she accompanied her mother in performances that were part sermon and part gospel concert before audiences across the American South. In the mid-1920s, Tharpe and her mother settled in Chicago, Illinois, where they performed religious concerts at the Roberts Temple COGIC on 40th Street, occasionally traveling to perform at church conventions throughout the country. Tharpe developed considerable fame as a musical prodigy, standing out in an era when prominent black female guitarists were rare. In 1934, at age 19, she married Thomas Thorpe, a COGIC preacher, who accompanied her and her mother on many of their tours. The marriage lasted only a few years, but she decided to adopt a version of her husband's surname as her stage name, Sister Rosetta Tharpe. In 1938, she left her husband and moved with her mother to New York City. Although she married several times, she performed as Rosetta Tharpe for the rest of her life.

Early career
On October 31, 1938, aged 23, Tharpe recorded for the first time – four sides for Decca Records. The first gospel songs recorded by Decca, "Rock Me", "That's All", "My Man and I" and "The Lonesome Road", were instant hits, establishing Tharpe as an overnight sensation and one of the first commercially successful gospel recording artists. "Rock Me" influenced many rock-and-roll singers, such as Elvis Presley, Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis. In 1942, the music critic Maurie Orodenker, describing Tharpe's "Rock Me", wrote "It's Sister Rosetta Tharpe for the rock & roll spiritual singing."

She had signed a ten-year contract with Lucky Millinder. Tharpe officially joined Millinder's swing band in 1941 and continued touring with the band throughout the 1940s. Her records caused an immediate furor: many churchgoers were shocked by the mixture of gospel-based lyrics and secular-sounding music, but secular audiences loved them. Tharpe played on several occasions with the white singing group the Jordanaires.

Tharpe's appearances with Cab Calloway at Harlem's Cotton Club in October 1938 and in John Hammond's "Spirituals to Swing" concert at Carnegie Hall on December 23, 1938, gained her more fame, along with notoriety. Performing gospel music for secular nightclub audiences and alongside blues and jazz musicians and dancers was unusual, and in conservative religious circles a woman playing the guitar in such settings was frowned upon. Tharpe fell out of favor with segments of the gospel community.

By 1943 she considered rebuilding a strictly gospel act, but she was contractually required to perform more worldly material. Her nightclub performances, in which she would sometimes sing gospel songs amid scantily clad showgirls, caused her to be shunned by some in the gospel community.

During this time masculinity was directly linked to guitar skills. Tharpe was often offered the intended compliment that she could "play like a man", demonstrating her skills at guitar battles at the Apollo.

Tharpe continued recording during World War II, one of only two gospel artists able to record V-discs for troops overseas.

Her song "Strange Things Happening Every Day", recorded in 1944 with Sammy Price, Decca's house boogie woogie pianist, showcased her virtuosity as a guitarist and her witty lyrics and delivery. It was the first gospel song to appear on the Billboard magazine Harlem Hit Parade. This 1944 record has been called the first rock and roll record. Tharpe toured throughout the 1940s, backed by various gospel quartets, including the Dixie Hummingbirds.

In 1946, Tharpe saw Marie Knight perform at a Mahalia Jackson concert in New York. Tharpe recognized a special talent in Knight. Two weeks later, Tharpe showed up at Knight's doorstep, inviting her to go on the road. They toured the gospel circuit for a number of years, during which they recorded hits such as "Up Above My Head" and "Gospel Train".

Later career
Starting in 1949, their popularity took a sudden downturn. Mahalia Jackson was starting to eclipse Tharpe in popularity, and Knight harbored a desire to break free as a solo act into popular music. Furthermore, around this time, Knight lost her children and mother in a house fire. That same year, to commemorate Tharpe's first anniversary of being a homeowner in Richmond, Virginia, Tharpe put on a concert at what is now the Altria Theater. Supporting her for that concert were the Twilight Singers, whom Rosetta adopted as her background singers for future concerts, renaming them The Rosettes.

Tharpe attracted 25,000 paying customers to her wedding to her manager, Russell Morrison (her third marriage), followed by a vocal performance at Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C., in 1951. In 1952, Tharpe and Red Foley recorded the B-side "Have a Little Talk with Jesus", which is likely the first interracial duet recorded in the US. It was not until 1968 that Billy Vera and Judy Clay had a hit with an interracial duet, "Storybook Children".

In 1956, Tharpe recorded an album with the gospel quartet The Harmonizing Four, titled Gospel Train. In 1957, Tharpe was booked for a month-long tour of the UK by British trombonist Chris Barber.

1964 European tour
In April and May 1964, Tharpe toured Europe as part of the Blues and Gospel Caravan, alongside Muddy Waters and Otis Spann, Ransom Knowling, and Little Willie Smith, Reverend Gary Davis, Cousin Joe, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee. Tharpe was introduced on stage and accompanied on piano by Cousin Joe Pleasant. Under the auspices of George Wein, the Caravan was stage-managed by Joe Boyd. A concert, in the rain, was recorded by Granada Television at the disused railway station at Wilbraham Road, Manchester, in May 1964. The band performed on one platform while the audience was seated on the opposite platform. Notable concert attendees were Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Keith Richards and Brian Jones.

According to Chris Lee of University of Salford, the 1964 Manchester show "influenced nearly everyone who saw it" and was as important as the Sex Pistols' 1976 show at the city's Lesser Free Trade Hall, which spurred attendees Morrissey, Mark E Smith and the musicians who would become Joy Division and Buzzcocks into action.

Later life and death
Tharpe's biographer said in 2018 that "she influenced Elvis Presley, she influenced Johnny Cash, she influenced Little Richard". When asked about her music and about rock and roll, Tharpe is reported to have said, "Oh, these kids and rock and roll — this is just sped up rhythm and blues. I've been doing that forever".

Tharpe's performances were curtailed by a stroke in 1970, after which one of her legs was amputated as a result of complications from diabetes. On October 9, 1973, the eve of a scheduled recording session, she died in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, as a result of another stroke. She was buried at Northwood Cemetery in Philadelphia.

Musical influence
Tharpe's guitar style blended melody-driven urban blues with traditional folk arrangements and incorporated a pulsating swing that was a precursor of rock and roll.

A National Public Radio article commented in 2017 that "Rock 'n' roll was bred between the church and the nightclubs in the soul of a queer black woman in the 1940s named Sister Rosetta Tharpe".

Little Richard referred to her as his favorite singer when he was a child. In 1947, she heard Richard sing before her concert at the Macon City Auditorium and later invited him on stage to sing with her; it was Richard's first public performance outside of the church. Following the show, she paid him for his performance, which inspired him to become a performer. When Johnny Cash gave his induction speech at the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, he referred to Tharpe as his favorite singer when he was a child. His daughter Rosanne Cash stated in an interview with Larry King that Tharpe was her father's favorite singer. Tharpe began recording with electric guitar in the 1940s, with "That's All", which has been cited as an influence on Chuck Berry and Elvis Presley. Other musicians, including Aretha Franklin, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Isaac Hayes, have identified her singing, guitar playing, and showmanship as an important influence on them. She was held in particularly high esteem by UK jazz/blues singer George Melly. Tina Turner credits Tharpe, along with Mahalia Jackson, as an early musical influence. Such diverse performers as Meat Loaf, Neil Sedaka and Karen Carpenter have attested to the influence of Tharpe in the rhythmic energy she emanated in her performances (Carpenter's drum fills are especially reminiscent of Tharpe's "Chorlton Chug").

According to a PBS article, Elvis was influenced by five artists, including Sister Rosetta Tharpe. “She had a major impact ... when you see Elvis Presley singing songs early in his career, I think you [should] imagine, he is channeling Rosetta Tharpe."

In 2018 singer Frank Turner wrote and performed the song "Sister Rosetta" about her influence and how she deserved to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The single was released on July 3, 2019.

According to Cleveland.com, Tharpe "plugged into an electric guitar in the late 1930s and became a rock star before the men considered the pioneers of rock and roll had dreamt of doing so. She's the "Godmother of rock and roll" who influenced every musician traditionally identified with helping launch the genre during the 1950s".

Awards and legacy
A resurgence of interest in Tharpe's work led to a biography, several NPR segments, scholarly articles, and honors. A biography entitled "Shout, Sister, Shout!" by Gayle L. Wald was published in  2007. The United States Postal Service issued a 32-cent commemorative stamp to honor Tharpe on July 15, 1998. In 2007, she was inducted posthumously into the Blues Hall of Fame. In 2008, a concert was held to raise funds for a marker for her grave, and January 11 was declared Sister Rosetta Tharpe Day in Pennsylvania. A gravestone was put in place later that year, and a Pennsylvania historical marker was approved for placement at her home in the Yorktown neighborhood of Philadelphia.

In 2011 BBC Four aired a one-hour documentary, Sister Rosetta Tharpe: The Godmother of Rock & Roll, written and directed by UK filmmaker Mick Csaky. In 2013 the film was shown in the US as part of the PBS series American Masters. The film has been aired numerous times in the UK and US, most recently in March 2015 to mark the 100th anniversary of Tharpe's birth. On March 20, 2015, the UK newspaper The Guardian published a 100th-birthday tribute by Richard Williams. On September 12, 2016, the musical play Marie And Rosetta, based on the relationship between Tharpe and Marie Knight, opened at the Atlantic Theater Company in New York.

On October 5, 2017, Tharpe was listed as a nominee for the 2018 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductions. On December 13, 2017, she was elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an Early Influence.

In 2017, National Public Radio wrote about the artist's career and concluded with these comments: Tharpe "was a gospel singer at heart who became a celebrity by forging a new path musically... Through her unforgettable voice and gospel swing crossover style, Tharpe influenced a generation of musicians including Aretha Franklin, Chuck Berry and countless others... She was, and is, an unmatched artist."

A musical about her life named "Shout, Sister, Shout!" based on the Gayle Wald biography of the same name, and written by playwright Cheryl West, was written in  2017 and performed that year at the Pasadena Playhouse, two years later at Seattle Repertory Theatre, and played at Ford's Theatre in Washington, D.C. in 2023.

Rolling Stone named Tharpe the 6th greatest guitarist of all time in 2023.

Albums

 * Gospel Songs (Decca, 1947)
 * Blessed Assurance (Decca, 1951)
 * Gospel Train (Mercury, 1956)
 * The Gospel Truth (Mercury, 1959)
 * Sister Rosetta Tharpe (MGM, 1960)
 * Spirituals in Rhythm (Promenade, 1960)
 * Sister on Tour (Verve, 1961)
 * The Gospel Truth (Verve, 1962)
 * Precious Memories (Savoy, 1968)
 * Gospel Keepsakes (MCA, 1983)
 * Live in 1960 (Southland, 1991)
 * Live at the Hot Club de France (BMG/Milan, 1991)
 * Live In France: The 1966 Concert In Limoges (2024)

Her complete works up to 1961 were issued as seven double-CD box sets by the French label Frémeaux & Associés.

title: Sister Rosetta Tharpe