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User:Jengod/Mining and minerals in the United States

The study of mining and minerals in the United States are important to understanding the U.S., a country always rich in natural resources.

History of mining and minerals in the U.S.
In 1619 the erection of works for smelting the ores of iron was begun at Falling Creek, near Jamestown, Virginia, and iron appears to have been made in 1620; but the enterprise was stopped by a general massacre of the settlers in that region. In 1643 the business of smelting and manufacturing iron was begun at Lynn, Massachusetts, where it was successfully carried on, at least up to 1671, furnishing most of the iron used in the colony.

From the middle of the 17th century the smelting of this metal began to be of importance in Massachusetts Bay and vicinity, and by the close of the century there had been a large number of ironworks established in that colony, which, for a century after its settlement, was the chief seat of the iron manufacture in America, bog ores, taken from the bottom of the ponds, being chiefly used. Early in the 18th century the industry began to extend over New England and into New Jersey, the German bloomery forge being employed for reducing the ore directly to bar iron, and by the middle of that century it had taken a pretty firm hold in the Atlantic colonies. About 1789 there were 14 furnaces and 34 forges in operation in Pennsylvania. Before the separation of the colonies from the mother country, the manufacture of iron had been extended through all of them, with the possible exception of Georgia. As early as 1718 iron (both pig and bar) began to be sent to Great Britain, the only country to which the export was permitted, the annual amount between 1730 and 1775 varying ordinarily between 2000 and 3000 tons, but in one year (1771) rising to between 7000 and 8000 tons.

The first metal other than iron mined by whites within the territory of the United States was lead, the discovery of which on the American continent was recorded in 1621. The first English settlers on the Atlantic bartered lead of domestic origin with the Indians in the 17th century, and so did the French in the upper Mississippi Valley. The ore of the metal occurring in the Mississippi basin is scattered widely and in large quantities, and being easily smelted by the roughest possible methods was much used at an early date. In the second half of the 18th century, during the period of French and Spanish domination in the valley, lead was a common medium of exchange, but no real mining development took place. Copper was the next metal to be mined, so far as is known. The first company began work about 1709, at Simsbury, Connecticut. The ore obtained there and in New Jersey seems to have been mostly shipped to England. A few years later attempts were made to work mines of lead and cobalt in Connecticut and Massachusetts.

The first mining excitement of the United States dates back to the discovery of gold by the whites in the Southern states, along the eastern border of the Appalachian range, in Virginia, and in North and South Carolina. The existence ~of gold in that region had been long known to the aboriginal inhabitants, but no attention was paid to this by the whites, until about the beginning of the soth renf,irv, when n,ipvpts were found, one of which weighed 28 lb.

From 1824 the search for gold continued, and by 1829 the business had become important, and was attended with no little excitement. In 1833 and 1834 the amount annually obtained had risen to fully a million of dollars. A rapid development of the lead mines of the West, both in Missouri and on the Upper Mississippi in the region where Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois adjoin one another, took place during the first quarter of the I9th century, and as early as 1826 or 1827 the amount of this metal obtained had risen to nearly 10,000 tons a year. By this time the making of iron had also become important, the production for 1828 being estimated at 130,000 tons.

In 1820 the first cargo of anthracite coal was shipped to Philadelphia. From 1830 the increase in the production was very rapid, and in 1841 the annual shipments from the Pennsylvania anthracite region had nearly reached 1,000,000 tons, the output of iron at that time being estimated at about 300,000 tons. The development of the coal and iron interests, and the increasing importance of the gold product of the Appalachian auriferous belt, and also of the lead product of the Mississippi Valley, led to a more general and decided interest in geology and mining; and about 1830 geological surveys of several of the Atlantic states were begun, and more systematic explorations for the ores of the metals, as well as for coal, were carried on over all parts of the country then open to settlement. An important step was taken in 1844, when a cession of the region on the south shore of Lake Superior was obtained from the Chippewa Indians. Here explorations for copper immediately began, and for the first time in the United States the business of mining for the metals began to be developed on an extensive scale, with suitable appliances, and with financial success. An event of still greater importance took place almost immediately after the value of the copper region in question had been fully ascertained. This was the demonstration of the fact that gold existed in large quantities along the western slope of the Sierra Nevada of California. In five years from the discovery of gold at Coloma on the American river, the yield from the auriferous belt of the Sierra Nevada had risen to an amount estimated at between sixty-five and seventy millions of dollars a year, or five times as much as the total production of this metal throughout the world at the beginning of the century.

The following details show the development of the mineral resources of the country at the middle of the 19th century. In 1850

the shipments of anthracite amounted to nearly 3,500,000 ~ L1~ tons; those of Cumberland or semi-bituminous coal were Industries about 200,000 tons. The yearly production of pig iron a ou had risen to between 500,000 and 600,ooo tons. The annual yield of gold in the Appalachian belt had fallen off to about $500,000 in value, that of California had risen to $36,000,000, and was rapidly approaching the epoch of its culmination (1851I 853). No silver was obtained in the country, except what was separated from the native gold, that mined in California containing usually from 8 to 10 % of the less valuable metal. The ore of mercury had been discovered in California before the epoch of the gold excitement, and was being extensively worked, the yield in the year 1850-1851 being nearly 2,000,000 lb. At this time the copper mines of Lake Superior were being successfully developed, and nearly 6oo tons of metallic copper were produced in 1850. At many points in the Appalachian belt attempts had been made to work mines of copper and lead, but with no considerable success, About the middle of the century extensive works were erected at Newark, New Jersey, fo1~ the manufacture of the oxide of zinc for paint; about 1100 tons were produced in 1852. The extent and value of the deposits of zinc ore in the Saucon Valley, Pennsylvania, had also just become known in 1850. The lead production of the Missouri mines had for some years been nearly stationary, or had declined slightly from its former importance; while that of the upper Mississippi region, which in the years just previous to 1850 had risen to from 20,000 to 25,000 tons a year, was declining, having in 1850 sunk to less than 18,000 tons.

At the end of the century, in only fifty years, the United States had secured an easy first place among the mineral-producing countries of the world. It held primacy, with a large margin, in the yield of coal, iron, lead and copper, the minerals most important in manufactures; in gold its output ini~usifrIcs was second only to that ,of South Africa (though practically equalled by that of Australia); and in silver to that of Mexico. Although the data are in general incomplete upon which might be based a comparison of the relative standing of different countries in the production of minerals of lesser importance than those just mentioned, it was estimated by M. G. Mulhall (Industries and Wealth of Nations, edition of 1896, pp. 3435) that Great Britain then produced approximately one-third, the United States one-third, and all other countries collectively one-third of the minerals of the world in weight.

The leading products, as reported by the Geological Survey for 1907, were as follows: coal, $614,798,898 (85,604,312 tons of anthracite coal, 394.759,112 of bituminous); petroleum, $120,106,749; natural gas, ~54,222,399; iron ore, $131,996,147 (pig iron, $529,958,000); copper, refined, $173,799,300; gold, coinage value, $90,435,700; buii~..ing-stone, $71,105,805; silver, commercial value, ~272OO,700: lean. reftn~I ~2~1o7.co6~ and zinc. r~6ned. ~,6 AOl OlO

The North Atlantic and the North Central census groups of states (that is, the territory east of the Mississippi and north of the Ohio rivers, and north of Maryland) produced two-thirds of the total output. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, West Virginia, California, Colorado, Montana, Michigan, New York and Missouri were the ten states of greatest absolute production in 1907. The rank relative to area or population is of course different. Those which, according to the bureau of the census, produced $1000 or over per sq. m. in 1902 were Pennsylvania, Ohio and West Virginia; $500 to $1000, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Vermont and Massachusetts. Seventeen states produced from $ioo to $500 per sq. m.

The total mineral output for the decade 1899-1908 according to the United States Geological Survey was as follows:

Value of Value of Year. Total Value Non-metallic Metallic of Products. Products. Products.

1908 1,595,670,186 1,045,497,070 549,923,116

1907 2,071,607,964 1,167,705,720 9c~,8o2,244

1906 1,902,517,565 1,016,206,709 886,110,856

1905 1,623,928,720 921,075,619 702,453,101

1904 1,361,067,554 859,383,604 501,099,950

1903 1,491,928,980 793,962,609 624,3 i8,008

1902 1,323,102,717 617,251,154 642,258,584

1901 1,141,972 309 567,318,592 518,266,259

1900 1,107,020,352 512,195,262 550,425,286

1899 1,014,355,705 446,090,251 525,472,981

The vastly greater part of mineral products are used in manufactures within the United States, and only an insignificant part (for example, 247 % in 1902) is exported in the crude form.

Coal exists in the United States in large quantity in each of its important varieties: anthracite, or hard coal; bituminous, or soft coal; and lignite; and in various intermediate and c al special grades. Geologically the anthracite and bituminous coals mainly belong to the same formation, the Carboniferous, and this is especially true of the better qualities; though it is stated by the United States Geological Survey that the geQlogic age of the coal beds ranges from Carboniferous in the Appalachian and Mississippi Valley provinces to Miocene (Tertiary) on the Pacific coast, and that the quality of the coal varies only to a very uncertain degree with the geologic age. The following estimates rest upon the same authority: (I) total area underlaid by coal measures, 496,776 sq. m., of which 250,531 are credited to anthracite and bituminous, 97,636 to sub-bituminous and 148,609 to lignite; (2) total original coal supply of the country, 3,076,204,000,000 short tons, including 21,000,000,000 tons of anthracite in Pennsylvania, and small amounts elsewhere (semi-anthracite and semi-bituminous), 650,157,000,000 tons of sub-bituminous and 743,590,000,000 tons of lignite; (3) easily accessible coal still available, 1,992,979,000,000 tons; (4) available coal accessible with difficulty, f,153,225,000,000 tons.

The total production of coal from 1814 (the year in which anthracite was first mined in Pennsylvania) to 1908 amounted to 7,280,940,265 tons, which represented an exhaustionadding 50 % for waste in mining and preparationof 11,870,049,900, or four-tenths of I % of the supposed original supply.

In 1820 the total production was only 3450 tons In 1850 it was already more than 7,000,000. And since then, while the population increased 230% from 1850 to 1900, the production of coal increased 4,084 %. At the same time that the per capita consumption thus rose in 1907 to 5~6 tons, the waste was estimated by the National Conservation Commission at 3~0 tons per capita. This waste, however, is decreasing, the coal abandoned in the mine having averaged, in the beginning of mining, two or three times the amount taken out; and the chief part of the remaining waste is in imperfect combustion in furnaces and fire-boxes. Thus, notwithstanding the fact that the supposed supply still available at the close of 1908 was 7369 times the production of that year, and 4913 times the exhaustion such production represented, so extraordinary has been the increased consumption of the country that, in the opinion of the Geological Survey (1907), if the rate of increase that has held for the last fifty years is maintained, the supply of easily available coal will be exhausted before the middle of the next century (A.o. 2050).

In 1870 both Great Britain and Germany exceeded the United States in the production of coal. Germany was passed in 1871

(definitively in 1877); Great Britain in 1899. Since 1901 the United States has produced more than one-third of the worlds output.

Coal was produced in 1908 in 30 states out of the 46 of the Union; and occurs also in enormous quantities in Alaska; 690,438 men were employed in this year in the coal mines. Pennsylvania (117,179,527 tons of bituminous and 83,268,754 of anthracite), Illinois (47,659,690), West Virginia (41,897,843), Ohio (26,270,639), Indiana (12,314,890) and Alabama (11,604,593) were the states of greatest production. The production of each was greater still in 1907.

The total oiitnijt amounted to zLIc.8a2.6o2 short tons, valued at $532 3 i4,1 17 in 1908 and to 480,363,424t0ns, valued at $614,798,898 in 1909 Pennsylvania produced three-fourths of the total output of the country in 1860, and since 1900 slightly less than one-half. Up to 1870 there was more anthracite mined in Pennsylvania than bituminous in the whole country, but since that year the production of the latter has become vastly the greater, the totals in 1907, in which year each stood at its maximum, being 83,268,754 and 332,573,944 tons respectively.

Inasmuch as the present production is not considered locally and with more or less justiceas at all indicative of the wealth in coal of the respective states, it may be said that according to estimates of the Geological Survey the following states are credited with the deposits indicated of true bituminous coal, including local admixtures of anthracite, the figures being millions of short tons:

Colorado, 296,272; Illinois, 240,000; \Vest Virginia, 231,000; Utah, 196,408; Pennsylvania, 112,574; Kentucky, 104,028; OhiO, 86,028; Alabama, 68,903; Indiana, 44,169; Missouri, 40,ooo; New Mexico, 30,805, Tennessee, 25,665; Virginia. 21,600; Michigan, 12,000; ~Iaryland, 8,044; Texas, 8,000; Kansas, 7,022; and Montana, 5,000; with lesser deposits in other states. At the same time there are estimated deposits of sub-bituminous coal, isolated or mixed with bituminous, amounting to 75,498 millions of tons in Colorado (which is probably the richest coal area of the country); and in other states as follows: Wyoming, 423,952 millions of tons; New Mexico, I3,975; Washington, 20,000; Montana, 18,560; California and Oregon, 1000 each; and lesser amounts elsewhere. Finally, of true lignite beds, or of lignite mix d with sub-bituminous qualities, the states of North Dakota, Montana, Texas and South Dakota are credited with deposits of 500,000; 279,500; 23,000; and 10,000 millions of tons respectively. But it is to be remembered that the amount and the fuel value of both the lignite and, to a lesser degree, the sub-bituminjus coals, is uncertain to a high degree.

Petroleum, according to the report of the National Conservation Commission in 1908, was then the sixth largest contributor to the Petrol nations mineral wealth, furnishing about one-sixteenth eum. of the total. Oil was produced in 1908 in sixteen states. , This productive area is divided by the United States Geological Survey into six fields (in addition to some scattering states) with reference to the quality of oil that they produce, such quality determining their uses. The Appalachian field (Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio, West Virginia and Tennessee) produces oil rich in paraffin, practically free from sulphur and asphalt, and yielding the largest percentage of gasoline and illuminating oils. This is the highest grade crude oil produced in the world. The California field produces oil characterized by much asphalt and little or no paraffin, and low in volatile constituents. The Lima (Ohio)-Indiana, the Illinois, the Mid-Continent (Kansas, Oklahoma and northern Texas) and the Gulf (Texas and Louisiana) fields produce oils containing more or less of sulphur and asphalt between the extremes of the two other fields just mentioned. The geological conditions of the different fields, and the details of the composition of the oils yielded, are exceedingly varied, and their study has been little more than begun In 1859 when the total output of the country is supposed to have been only 2000 barrels of oil, production was confined to Pennsylvania and New York. Ohio, West Virginia and California appeared as producers in 1876, Kentucky and Tennessee in 1883, Colorado in 1887. Indiana in 1889, along with Illinois, Kansas, Texas and Missouri, Oklahoma in 1891, Wyoming in 1894, and, lastly, Louisiana in 1902. From 1859 to 1876 the Appalachian field yielded IoO% of the total output of the country; in 1908 its share had fallen to 13.9%. Ia the same period of 50 years the yearly output rose from 2000 to 179,572,479 barrels (134,717,580 in 1905) and to a grand total of 1,986,180,942 barrels, worth $1,784,583,943, or more than half the value of all the gold, and more than the commercial value of all the silver produced in the country since 1792. The production in 1908 exceeded in value the output of both metals. Deducing from the figures of production since 1859 an equation of increase, one finds that in each nine years as much oil has been produced as in all preceding years together, and in recent years the factor of increase has been higher. So rapid has been the extension of the yielding areas, so diverse the fate of many fields, so shifting their relative rank in output, that the otitlook from year to year as regards all these elements is too uncertain to admit of definite statements respecting the relative importance of the five fields already mentioned The total output of these, it may be stated, from 1901 to 1908uniting the yield of the Illinois to the Lima-Indiana field (since their statistics were long so united, until their industrial differences became apparent), and adding a sixth division for the production of scattered areas of productionwas as follows:

Appalachian, 235,999,859; Lima-Indiana-Illinois, 219,609,347; Mid- Continent, 136,148,892; Gulf, 159,520,306; California, 27,931,687; and others, 3,367,666; the leading producers in 1907-1908 being the Mid-Continent and the California areas.

The worlds output of oil was trebled between 1885 and 1895, and quadrupled between 1885 and 1900. In this increase the United States had the largest share. So recently as 1902 the output of the United States was little greater than that of Kussia (the two yielding 91.4% of the worlds product), but this advantage has since then been greatly increased, so that the one has produced 63.1 and the other 21.8% of the total output of the world. In 1908 the Geological Survey issued a preliminary map of the then known areas productive of oil and natural gas in the United States, estimating the extent of the former at 8850 and of the latter at 9365 sq. m. The supply of oil in this area was estimated at from 15,000,000,000 to 20,000,000,000 barrels; and the National Conservation Commission of 1908 expressed the opinion that in view of the rapid increase of production and the enormous loss through misuse the supply cannot be expected to last beyond the middle of this century.

Natural gas, as a source of light and for metallurgical purposes, became important in the mid-eighties. In recent years its use for industrial purposes has lessened, and for domestic pdr-Naturaj Gas poses increased. The existence of outflows or springs of gas in the region west of the Alleghanies had long been known, and much gas was used for illuminating purposes in Fredonia, New York, as early as 1821. Such gas is a more or less general concomitant of oil all through the petroleum-bearing areas of the country. The total output of the country rose from a value of $215,000 ifl 1882 to one of $54,640,374 ifl 1908, with several fluctuations up and down in that interval. Pennsylvania, with a product valued at $155,620,395 from 1899 to 1908, West Virginia with $84,955,496, Ohio with $48,172,450 and Indiana with $46,141,553 were the greatest producers of the Union.

The National Conservation Commission in 1908 estimated the area of the known gas fields of the country at 9000 sq. hi.; the portion of their yield in 1907 that was utilized at 400,000,000,000 cub. ft.; and the Waste at an equal amountmore than 1,000,000,000 of cub. ft. daily, or enough to supply all the cities in the United States of above 100,000 population.

Of other non-metallic mineral substances, apart from coal, petroleum and natural gas, little need be said in detail. Stone is of the greatest actual importance, the value of the quarry output, including some prepared or manufactured product, such as dressed and crushed stone, averaging $65,152,312 annually in 1904-1908.

Limestone is by far the largest element, and with granite makes up two-thirds of the total value. Vermont, Pennsylvania and New York are the leading producers. In this, as in other cases, actual product may indicate little regarding potential resources, and still less regarding the distribution of these throughout the Union. Glass and other sands and gravel ($13,270,032), lime ($11,091,186), phosphate rock ($10,653,558), salt ($7,553,632), natural mineral waters ($7,287,269), sulphur ($6,668,215, almost wholly from Louisiana), slate ($6,316,8 I7), gypsum ($4,138,560), clay ($2,599,986), asphalt ($1,888,881), talc and soapstone ($1,401,222), borax ($975,000, all from California), and pyrite ($857,113) were the next most important products in 1908. It may be noted that the output in almost every item of mineral production was considerably greater in 1907 than in 1908, and the isolated figures of the latter year are of little interest apart from showing in a general way the relative commercial importance of the products named. In the yield of gypsum, phosphate rock and salt the United States leads the world. In sulphur it is a close second to Sicily. Phosphate rock is heavily exported, and in the opinion of the National Conservation Commission of 1908 the supply cannot long satisfy the increasing demand for export, which constitutes a waste of a precious natural resource. Other minerals whose production may be found stated in detail in the annual volume on Mineral Resources of the United States Geological Survey are: natural pigments, felspar, white mica, graphite, fluorspar, arsenic, quartz, barytes, bromine. Some dozens of varieties of precious stones occur widely. Of building-stone, clay, cement, lime, sand and salt, the countrys supply was estimated by the National Conservation Commission of 1908 to be ample.

In 1907 iron ore was mined for blast-furnace use in twenty-nine states only, but the ore occurs in almost every state of the Union. As nearly as can be estimated from imperfect statistics, frirn the total ore production of the country rose steadily from 2,873,400 long tons in, 1860 to 51,720,619 tons in 1907. The United States became practically independent of foreign ore imports during the decade 1870 to 1879. The iron-producing area of the country may be divided, with regard to natural geographic, historic and trade considerations, into four districts: (1) the Lake Superior district, embracing the states of Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin; (2) the southern district, embracing the triangle tipped by Texas, Maryland and Georgia; (3) the northern district, embracing the triangle tipped by Ohio, New Jersey and Massachusetts, plus the states of Iowa and Missouri; (4) the western district, which includes the states of the Rocky Mountain region and Pacific coast. Of these districts the Lake Superior regionwhich embraces the Marquette range (opened in 1854), the Menominee (1872), the Gogebic (1884), the Vermilion (1884) and the Mesabi (1892)first attracted exploration about 1844, when the copper deposits of the same region were opened, and produced from 1854 to 1908 a total of 1/210,239,551 long tons, of which 341,036,883 were mined in the period 1889-1908. From the Mesabi range alone, opened in 1892, no less than 168,143,661 long toas were taken up to 1908. The share of the whole district for some years past has been practically four-fifths of the total output of the country; and together with the yield of the southern district, more than 90%. Minnesota alone produces more than half of the same total, having multiplied her product since 1889 by more than 33 times. Michigan held first place in output until 1901. Alabama is the third great producer of the Union, and with the other two made up in 1907 more than four-fifths of the countrys total. In 1907 the product of Minnesota (28,969,658 long tons) was greater than that of Germany (with Luxemburg), and nearly twice the production of Great Britain.

Of the two classes of iron minerals used as ores of that metal, namely, oxides and carbonates, the latter furnish to-day an insignificant proportion of the countrys product, although such ores were the basis of a considerable part of the early iron industry, and even so late as 1889 represented one-thirteenth of the total. Of the oxides, various forms of the brown ores in locations near to the Atlantic coast were the chief basis of the early iron industries. Magnetites were also early employed, at first in Catalan forges, in which by means of a direct process the metal was secured from the ores and forged into blooms without being cast; later they were smelted in blast furnaces. But in the recent and great development of the iron industry the red haematite ores have been overwhelmingly predominant. From 1889 to 1907 the average yearly percentages of the red haematite, brown ores, rnagnetite and carbonate in the total ore production were respectively 824, I0I, 7.1 and 0.4. In the census of 1870 the share of the three varieties appeared almost equal; in 1899 that of the red ores had risen to near two-thirds of the total. The red and brown ores are widely distributed, every state in the Union in 1907, save Ohio and North Carolina, producing one or both. Magnetite production was confined to mountain regions in the east and west, and only in Ohio were carbonates mined.

An investigation was made in 1908 for the National Conservation Commission of the ore reserves of the country. This report was made by Dr. C. W. Hayes of the Geological Survey. With the reservations that only in the case of certain red haematite bedded deposits can any estimate be made of relative accuracy, say within 10%; that the concentration deposits of brown ore can be estimated only with an accuracy represented by a factor varying between 0.7 and 3; and that the great Lake Superior and the less known Adirondack deposits can be estimated within 15 to 20%, the total supply of the country was estimated at 79,594,220,000 long tons73,21o,415,000 of which were credited to haematite ores and 5,054,675,000 to magnetite. Almost 95 % is believed to lie about Lake Superior.

Ihe output of pig iron and steel in 1907 was 25,781,361 and 23,362,594 long tons respectively. It is believed that the first steel made in the United States was made in Connecticut in 1728. Crucible steel was first successfully produced in 1832, Bessemer and open-hearth in 1864. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, Alabama and New York are the leading states in production.

The washing of the high or Tertiary gravels by the hydraulic process and the working of mines in the solid rock did not, on the Gold and whole, compensate for the diminished yield of the Silver ordinary placer and river diggings, so that the product of gold in California continued to fall off, and by 1860

had decreased to about half what it had been ten years before. Discoveries in other Cordilleran territories, notably in Montana and Idaho, made up, however, in part for the deficiency of California, so that in I 860 the total amount of gold produced in the United States was estimated at not less than $45,000,000. In the latter part of the decade 1850-1859 the territories adjacent to California on the east, north and south were overrun by thousands of miners from the Sierra Nevada goldfields, and within a few years an extraordinary number of discoveries were made, some of which proved to be of great importance. The most powerful impulse to mining operations, and the immediate cause of a somewhat lengthy period of wild excitement and speculation, was the discovery and successful opening of the Comstock lode in 1859, in the western part of what is now Nevada, but was then part of Utah. About this lode grew up Virginia City. From 1859 to 1902 the total yield of this lode was $204,653,040 in silver and $148,145,385 in gold; the average annual yield from 1862 to 1868 was above eleven millions; the maximum yield $36,301,537 in 1877; and the total product to July 1880 was variously estimated at from $304,752,171.54 to $30618125125. The lode was an ore channel of great dimensions included within volcanic rocks of Tertiary age, themselves broken through pre-existing strata of Triassic age, and exhibited some of the features of a fissure vein, combined in part with those of a contact deposit and in part with those of a segregated vein. The gangue was quartz, very irregularly distributed in bodies often of great sizes, for the most part nearly or quite barren of ore. The metalliferous portion of the lode was similarly distributed in great masses, known as bonanzas. The next most famous lode is that of Leadville, Colorado, which from 1879 to 1889 yielded $147,834,186, chiefly in silver and lead. In later years the Cripple Creek district of Colorado became specially prominent.

The total oatput of gold and silver in the United States according to the tables published by the Director of the Mint has been as follows :

Gold. Silver.

ears. Quantity in Quantity in, Commercial Fine Ounces. Value. Fine Ounces. Value.

1792-1847 1,187,170 24,537,000 309,500 404,500

1848-1872 58,279,778, 2,204,750,00 118,568,200 157,749,900

1873-1908 88,833,232 1,836,344,000 I,664,371,30o 1,379,892,200

148,300,179 $3,065,632,000 i,78~,x~g,ooo $1,538,046,600

Colorado ($22,871,000), Alaska ($19,858,800), California ($19,329,700), Nevada ($11,689,400), South Dakota ($7,742,200), Utah ($3,946,700), Montana ($3,160,000) and Arizona ($2,500,000)

were the leading producers in 1908, in which year the totals for the two metals were $94,560,000 for gold and $28,050,600 for silver.

The grade of precious ores hafidled has generally and greatly decreased in recent yearsaccording to the census data of 1880 and 1902, disregarding all base metallic contentsfrom an average commerical value of $29.07 to one of $8.29; nevertheless the product of gold and silver has greatly increased. This is due to improvements in mining methods and reduction processes, which have made profitable low-grade ores that were not commercially available in 1880.

Copper was produced in 1908 in twenty-four states of the Union. Their output was almost seventeenfold the quantity reported by the census of 186o. The quantity produced from 1845 Cop er the year in which the Lake Superior district became a producer, and in which the total product was only 224,000 lbup to 1908 was 13,106,205,634 lb. The increases from 1845 to 1850, in each decennial period thereafter, and from 1901 to 1908, were as follcws, in percentages: 50.0, 27.0, 6.1, 7~2, f48, 9.1 and 5.8. The total product passed 10,000,000 lb in 1857, 20,000,000 lb in 1867, 30,000,000 lb in 1873, 40,000,000 lb in 1875, 50,000,000 lb in 1879 and 100,000,000 lb in 1883. Comparing the product of the United States with that of the world, the figures for the two respectively were 23,350 and I51,936 long tons in 1879, when the United States was second to both Spain (and Portugal) and Chile as a producer; 51,570 and 199,406 long tons in 1883, when the Unites States first took leading rank; 172,300 and 334,565 long tons in 1895, when the yield of the United States first exceeded that of all other parts of the world combined; and 942,570,000 and 1,667,098,000 lb in 1908.

The three leading producing states or Territories of the Union are, and since the early eighties have been, Arizona, Montana and Michigan. With Utah and California their yield in 1908 was 93% of the total. During the decade ending with that year the average yearly output of the three first-named was 197,706,968 Ib, 267,172,951 lb and 192,187,488 lb respectively.

The production of lead was for many years limited, as already mentioned, to two districts near the Mississippi: one the so-called Upper Mines of Wisconsin, Iowa and Illinois; the other I. d the Lower Mines of south-eastern Missouri. The national government, after reserving the mineral lands (1807) and attempting to lease them, concluded in 1847 to sell them, owing to the difficulty of preventing illegal entry and collecting royalties. The yield of the Upper Mines culminated about 1845, and long ago became insignificant. The greatest lead district is in south-western Missouri nod south-eastern Kansas, known as the Joplin-Galena district after the names of the two cities that are its centre. The United States is the gleatest lead producer and consumer in the world, its percentage of the total output and consumption averaging 30.4% and 32-5% respectively in the years 1904-1908. Since 1825 the total product of lead refined from domestic ores and domestic base bullion was, up to the close of 1908, 7,091,548 short tons. An annual yield of 100,000 tons was first passed in 1881; of 200,000, ill 1891; of 300,000, in 1898. The total refined domestic product in 1907 was 337,340, and the total domestic lead smelted was 365,166 tons. Of the smelter domestic product 235,559 tons were of desilverized lead and 129,607 of soft lead. Considerable quantities of foreign ores and base bullion are also refined in the United States. The average percentage of metallic recovery from lead ores was about 68%, in 1880, and again in 1902, according to the national censuses of these years. According to the bureau of the census the value in 1902 of the lead yielded by copper, by non-argentiferous lead and zinc, and by gold and silver ores respectively was $19,053, $5,850,721 and $12,311,239. This reflects the revolutionary change in the history of lead mining since the first discovery of argentiferous lead ores in the Rocky Mountain states in 1864, which became available only after the building of railways. Until the completion of the Union Pacific in 1869 there was no smelting of such ores except for their silver contents. The deposits in the Joplin-Galena district were discovered in 1848, but attracted little attention for three decades. Of the soft lead smelted in 1907 no less than 94.8 % came from Missouri. Idaho, Utah and Colorado produce together almost as great a proportion of the desilverized lead, half of which has come in recent years from Idaho.

Spelter production began in the United States in 1858 in an experimental way, and regular production in 1860. The census of the latter year reported an output of product valued at $72,600. According to the census data for 1889 and 1902 there was an in Zinc crease in value of product of 184.1 % in the interval, and of 109.5% in the quantity of ore produced. The value of products in 1902 were reported as $340,686 from gold and silver ores, and $8,665,675 from non-argentiferous lead and zinc ores. The total product of zinc from domestic ore for the entire country was 7343 short tons in 1873, passed 100,000 tons in 1898, and 200,000 in 1907, when it amouiited to 223,745 tons. From 1904 to 1908 the share of the United States in the worlds output averaged 28-2 %, and in the worlds consumption (disregarding stocks) 27.5%. Of the product of 1907 above stated no less than 63.4% came from Missouri alone; Colorado, Wisconsin, Kansas and New Jersey yielding together 30.8 % more.

Most of the quicksilver produced in the United States comes from California (86% of the total in 1908), but a considerable quantity M comes from Texas, and small amounts are produced CIWJV. in Utah, Arizona and Oregon. Veins of cinnabar are known elsewhere in the Rocky Mountain and Sierra Nevada regions but not in workable quantities. The mercurial ores of the Pacific Coast ranges occur in very irregular deposits in the form of strings and bunches, disseminated through a highly metamorphosed siliceous rod~c. The first locality where the metal was successfully mined was at New Almaden, about 100 m. south of San Francisco. These mines have been productive since 1824. Another old mine, discovered in 1853, is the New Idria located another 100 to. farther south. These two are still among the foremost producers.

From 1850 to 1908 California produced a total of 2,052,000 flasks of metal, of 76.5 lb (since June I, 1904, 750 lb net) each. The year of greatest yield was 1877, with 79,395 flasks. The production had steadily fallen to 16,984 flasks in 1908, but in the opinion of the United States Geological Survey this reduction is mainly attributable, in recent years at least, to market conditions, and does not truly indicate the exhaustion of the mines, although the ores now available are of low grades, those of New Almaden having shown a decrease in yield from 36.7 % in 1850-1851 to o~74 % in 1895-1896, so that only the greatest metallurgical skill and business economy can sustain the mines against a weak market.

Bauxite was produced on a commercial scale in four states in 1908: Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia and Tennessee; Arkansas pro- Other ducingas for years pastmore than six-tenths of the total product of the country. This rose from an insignificant amount in 1889 to 97,776 long tons (valued at $480,330) in 1907. The consumption of the United States is, however, much larger than its product, and is rapidly growing. The production of aluminium rose from 83 lb in 1883 to 7,500,000 lb in 1903, and a consumption (the Geological Survey not reporting the production) of 17,211,000 lb in 1907. Antimony, bismuth, selenium, tellurium, chromic iron ore, tin, nickel, cobalt, vanadium, titanium, molybdenum, uranium and tantalum are produced in the United States in small amounts, but such production in several cases has amounted to only slight discoveries, and in general they are of little importance in the market. Of tungsten the United States was in 1907 the greatest producer in the world (1640 tons in a total of 6062). Tin ores have been widely discovered, but though much has been hoped for from them, particularly from the deposits in the Black Hills region of South Dakota, there has been no more than a relatively insignificant commercial production.

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Pagasae

Pagasae or Pagases (Παγασαί), also Pagasa, was a town and polis (city-state) of Magnesia in ancient Thessaly, currently a suburb of Volos. It is situated at the northern extremity of the bay named after it (Παγασητικὸς κόλπος, or Pagasaeus Sinus).

Pagasae is celebrated in mythology as the port where Jason built the ship Argo, and from which he sailed upon his adventurous voyage: hence some of the ancients derived its name from the construction of that vessel, (from πήγνυμι), but others from the numerous and abundant springs which were found at this spot. Apollonius of Rhodes describes the setting vividly in the first book of his Argonautica. Pagasae was conquered by Philip II of Macedon after the defeat of Onomarchus; in Diodorus's report the place is spelt Παγαί - Pagaí. On the foundation of Demetrias in 290 or 293 BCE, Pagasae was one of the towns whose inhabitants were transferred to the new city; but after the Roman conquest Pagasae was restored, and again became an important place. In the time of Strabo it was the port of Pherae, which was the principal city in this part of Thessaly. Pagasae was 90 stadia from Pherae, and 20 from Iolcos.

As of the nineteenth century, the ruins of the ancient city were to be seen near Volos, which has given the modern name to the bay. The acropolis occupied the summit of some rocky heights above Cape Angkístri, and at the foot of the rocks are many copious sources of water, of which Strabo speaks. But as these springs are rather saline to the taste, the city was provided in the Roman times with water from a distance by means of an aqueduct, the ruined piers of which are still a conspicuous object. The accepted site is in the modern village of Nees Pagasees in the municipality of Volos; however, the most recent excavations seem to indicate that Pagasae may be the ruins at nearby Soros, also in the municipality of Volos.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pagasae


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Demetrias

Demetrias (Δημητριάς) was a Greek city in Magnesia in ancient Thessaly (east central Greece), situated at the head of the Pagasaean Gulf, near the modern city of Volos.

History

It was founded in 294 BCE by Demetrius Poliorcetes, who removed thither the inhabitants of Nelia, Pagasae, Ormenium, Rhizus, Sepias, Olizon, Boebe and Iolcos, all of which were afterwards included in the territory of Demetrias. It soon became an important place, and the favourite residence of the Macedonian kings. It was favourably situated for commanding the interior of Thessaly, as well as the neighbouring seas; and such was the importance of its position that it was called by Philip V of Macedon one of the three fetters of Greece, the other two being Chalcis and Corinth.

In 196 BCE, the Romans, victorious in the Battle of Cynoscephalae over Philip V in the previous year, took possession of Demetrias and garrisoned the town. Four years later the Aetolian League captured it by surprise. The Aetolians allied themselves with Antiochus III of the Seleucid Empire in the Roman–Seleucid War. This ended in the defeat of Antiochus. After the return of Antiochus to Asia in 191 BCE, Demetrias surrendered to Philip, who was allowed by the Romans to retain possession of the place. It continued in the hands of Philip and his successor till the over-throw of the Macedonian monarchy at the Battle of Pydna, 169 BCE.

During Roman times it lost importance, but it was the capital of the Magnesian League. In Christian times some buildings were built, especially two churches, one in the northern port, called Basilica of Damokratia, and another one to the south of the city, outside the walls, known as the Cemetery Basilica. Under Roman emperor Constantine the Great (ruled 306–337) it became a Christian episcopal see and is now a titular see of the Catholic Church.

According to Procopius (De Aedificiis, 4.3.5), Demetrias was rebuilt by Justinian I (r. 527–565), but other evidence points to the possibility that "ancient urban life may have already come to an end by the beginning of the 6th century" (T.E. Gregory). Demetrias is mentioned by Hierocles in the sixth century. Its territory was settled by the Slavic tribe of the Belegezitai in the 7th/8th centuries, raided and sacked by the Saracens in 901/2, and by rebels during the Uprising of Peter Delyan in 1040.

Following the Fourth Crusade, the town was granted to the exiled Byzantine empress Euphrosyne Doukaina Kamatera, and after her death in 1210 to Margaret of Hungary, the widow of the King of Thessalonica, Boniface of Montferrat. The city came under the rule of Manuel Komnenos Doukas ca. 1240, but was de facto controlled by a branch of the Melissenos family. In the 1270s, the Byzantines scored an important victory against the Venetians and the Lombard barons of Euboea at the Battle of Demetrias.

The Catalan Company sacked the town in 1310 and kept it until 1381 at least, but from 1333 on, it began to be abandoned for neighbouring Volos. It was finally captured by the Ottoman Empire in 1393.

Archaeology
The site of Demetrias is at a place called Aivaliotika (Αϊβαλιώτικα) in the municipality of Volos.

The ancient town was described by William Martin Leake, who visited the site in the early 19th century, as occupying "the southern or maritime face of a height, now called Gorítza, which projects from the coast of Magnesia, between 2 and 3 miles [3 to 5 km] to the southward of the middle of Volo. Though little more than foundations remains, the inclosure of the city, which was less than 2 miles [3 km] in circumference, is traceable in almost every part. On three sides the walls followed the crest of a declivity which falls steeply to the east and west, as well as towards the sea. To the north the summit of the hill, together with an oblong space below it, formed a small citadel, of which the foundations still subsist. A level space in the middle elevation of the height was conveniently placed for the central part of the city. The acropolis contained a large cistern cut in the rock, which is now partly filled with earth. . . . Many of the ancient streets of the town are traceable in the level which lies midway to the sea, and even the foundations of private houses: the space between one street and the next parallel to it, is little more than 15 feet [5 m]. About the centre of the town is a hollow, now called the lagúmi or mine, where a long rectangular excavation in the rock, 2 feet wide [0.6 m], 7 deep [2.1 m], and covered with flat stones, shows by marks of the action of water in the interior of the channel that it was part of an aqueduct, probably for the purpose of conducting some source in the height upon which stood the citadel, into the middle of the city."

The site, about 3 km south of Volos, was excavated from the end of the 19th century. Remains of the walls (about 11 km) and the acropolis that was to the northwest in the highest point of the city are preserved. Also uncovered were the theater, the Heroon (a temple above the theater), an aqueduct, the sacred agora (with a temple and the administrative center of the city), and the Anaktoron (royal palace) east of the city on the top of a hill, which was occupied until the middle of second century BCE, and later used by the Romans as a cemetery.

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Carl Emil Schorske

Carl Emil Schorske (March 15, 1915 – September 13, 2015), known professionally as Carl E. Schorske, was an American cultural historian and professor at Princeton University. In 1981 he won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction for his book Fin-de-Siècle Vienna: Politics and Culture (1980), which remains significant to modern European intellectual history. He was a recipient of the first year of MacArthur Fellows Program awards in 1981 and made an honorary citizen of Vienna in 2012.

Biography
Born in the Bronx, New York City, to Theodore Schorske and Gertrude Goldsmith, Schorske received his B.A. from Columbia in 1936 and a Ph.D. from Harvard in 1950. He served in the Office of Strategic Services, the precursor to the CIA, during World War II, as chief of political intelligence for Western Europe. His first book, German Social Democracy, published by Harvard University Press in 1955, describes the schism of the Social Democratic Party of Germany into a reformist/constitutionalist right faction and a revolutionary oppositionist left faction during the years 1905–1917.

Following his war-time service, Schorske taught at Wesleyan University (1946–1960), the University of California at Berkeley (1960–1969), and Princeton University (1969 until his retirement in 1980), where he was Dayton-Stockton Professor of History. Professor Schorske was named by Time magazine as one of the nation's ten top academic leaders. In 1987 he delivered the Charles Homer Haskins Lecture. In 1998 Schorske published Thinking With History: Explorations in the Passage to Modernism (Princeton University Press), a collection of essays on Viennese and general history. He turned 100 in March 2015 and died in September at a retirement community in Hightstown, New Jersey.

Decorations and awards
In 2004 Schorske received the Ludwig Wittgenstein Prize of the Austrian Research Association (Österreichische Forschungsgemeinschaft). He was a Corresponding Member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences. On 25 April 2012 Schorske was made an honorary citizen of Vienna during a ceremony attended by his wife, Elizabeth Rorke, his granddaughter, Carina del Valle Schorske, and the mayor of Vienna, Dr Michael Häupl. In 1981 he was a MacArthur Fellow.

 * 1985: City of Vienna Prize for Journalism
 * 1996: Grand Silver Medal for Services to the Republic of Austria
 * 2007: Victor-Adler State Prize for History of Social Movements
 * Austrian Decoration for Science and Art

Works

 * German Social Democracy, 1905–1917: The Development of the Great Schism (1955, Harvard University Press)
 * Thinking With History: Explorations in the Passage to Modernism (1998, Princeton University Press)
 * Fin-de-Siècle Vienna: Politics and Culture (1980)
 * "A life of learning" Charles Homer Haskins lecture, April 23, 1987
 * Budapest and New York: Studies in Metropolitan Transformation, 1870–1930, with Thomas Bender (1994, Russell Sage Foundation)

title: Carl Emil Schorske


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Chip Taylor

Chip Taylor (born James Wesley Voight; March 21, 1940) is an American songwriter and singer noted for writing "Angel of the Morning" and "Wild Thing".

Early life
Taylor was born on March 21, 1940, in Yonkers, New York. He is the brother of actor Jon Voight and geologist Barry Voight and the uncle of actress Angelina Jolie and actor James Haven. Taylor and his brothers attended Archbishop Stepinac High School in White Plains, New York. In 1961, Taylor attended the University of Hartford in Hartford, Connecticut, for one year.

After an unsuccessful attempt to become a professional golfer like his father, Elmer Voight, Taylor entered the music business.

As songwriter
Taylor wrote many pop and rock songs, both alone and with other songwriters, including Al Gorgoni (with whom he also performed, as the duo Just Us), Billy Vera, Ted Daryll, and Jerry Ragovoy, first freelancing and then as an employee of a New York City music publisher.

Taylor's first big hit was "Wild Thing", which, though first recorded in 1965 by Jordan Christopher and the Wild Ones, became famous as both a hit single by the Troggs in 1966 and a live performance by Jimi Hendrix in 1967, and was later covered by the Runaways, the Muppets, and X. "Angel of the Morning" was first recorded by Evie Sands in 1967, before becoming a hit for Merrilee Rush and also P. P. Arnold in 1968, then a million-selling single in 1981 for country-pop singer Juice Newton; later a rendition from Chrissie Hynde was released.

Other notable pop and country songs written by Taylor include "He Sits at Your Table" (Willie Nelson), "I Can't Let Go" (Evie Sands, the Hollies, Linda Ronstadt), "The Baby" (the Hollies), "Worry" (Johnny Tillotson), "Make Me Belong to You" (Barbara Lewis), "I Can Make It With You" (the Pozo Seco Singers, Jackie DeShannon), "Any Way That You Want Me" (the Troggs, Evie Sands, Melanie, American Breed, Juice Newton, Mary Mason, Lita Ford, Liverpool Five) "Step Out of Your Mind" (The American Breed), "Country Girl City Man" (Billy Vera and Judy Clay), "I'll Hold Out My Hand", "Try (Just a Little Bit Harder)" (Lorraine Ellison, Janis Joplin), "Julie" (Bobby Fuller Four, Marshall Crenshaw), and "Lonely Is As Lonely Does" (the Fleetwoods).

Shaggy used "Angel of the Morning" as the basis for his hit "Angel" in 2001.

In 2009, Ace Records released a compilation CD of some of Taylor's compositions as recorded by other artists (Wild Thing: The Songs of Chip Taylor).

His own recordings
Taylor's first releases were on the King label and their subsidiary DeLuxe. In 1958, he and the Town Three released two 45s on DeLuxe, numbers 6176 "Midnight Blues" and 6180 "I Want a Lover". In 1959, he recorded for King as Wes Voight on 5211 "I'm Movin' In", and his final recording as Wes Voight on King 5231 "I'm Ready to Go Steady" and "The Wind and the Cold Black Night". The two King 45s were released in both mono and stereo, making them some of the first stereo singles available. Taylor has released recordings on Warner Bros., Columbia, and Capitol. His first chart single was his recording (as Chip Taylor) of "Here I Am" in 1962 on Warner Bros. Records. He also had a top 40 hit in Australia in 1963 with "Sandy Sandy" with the Town and Country Brothers, a later iteration of Wes Voight and the Town Three, with Ted Daryll (who wrote the song) and Greg Richards, writers of "She Cried" by Jay and the Americans.

Performing and recording in the 1990s and the 21st century
Taylor restarted his performing and recording career in 1993.

At the 2001 South by Southwest Music Conference in Austin, Texas, Taylor met singer and violinist Carrie Rodriguez, with whom he performed and recorded Americana music for several years. The duo recorded Let's Leave This Town in 2002. They released The Trouble With Humans the following year and the critically acclaimed Red Dog Tracks in 2005. Each has since released successful solo albums. Taylor's double-CD Unglorious Hallelujah/Red Red Rose, his first solo album in five years, was quickly hailed as "a future classic" by Sonic Magazine, whose reviewer declared: "This is the best we've heard from Chip Taylor so far." Rodriguez's solo album, Seven Angels on a Bicycle, was released in August 2006. In late 2006 and early 2007, Rodriguez toured on her own but continued to perform with Taylor from time to time. Taylor has done a series of shows with guitarist John Platania and the young singer/fiddler Kendel Carson, and he produced both their 2007 albums.

During the 21st century through 2020, Taylor has continued to perform with his band The New Ukrainians (John Platania on electric guitar, Björn Petterson on bass, and a revolving cast of other musicians). Each concert almost always includes both "Wild Thing" and "Angel in the Morning".

Taylor's album Yonkers, NY was a 2011 nominee for a Grammy Award for best recording package, but lost to Brothers by the Black Keys.

Rainy Day Records
In 1967, Taylor, along with Al Gorgoni, formed Rainy Day Records, which was distributed by Jubilee Records. The label released the single "Night Owl" by the Flying Machine, a group that included James Taylor.

Train Wreck Records
In 2007, Taylor launched his own independent label, Train Wreck Records.

Personal life
By Taylor's own accounts, from 1980 through 1995 he was very successful at, but unhappily addicted to, gambling professionally on blackjack in New Jersey casinos and on horse races. He then returned to music, starting by singing to his dying mother, Barbara Voight. Taylor has said that the gambling addiction was hard on both himself and his family. He has written that, after having an epiphany, he changed his attitude and created the "Church of the Train Wreck" self-help program for himself and others.

Taylor continues to live in New York City. He has been married to Joan Carole Frey since 1964, and they have children and grandchildren. (Joan and Chip were temporarily divorced for several years, starting in the 1990s.)

title: Chip Taylor


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Talk:Ogre (board game)

Similarity to 1983's "Battlezone" for BBC Micro
The concept of Ogre seems very similar to MC Lothlorien's 1983 title Battlezone for the BBC Micro. The game is functionally similar to Ogre; players aim to prevent a single enemy tank (also called an Ogre) reaching the bottom of a 15x22 board using a combined force consisting of command posts, GEVs, heavy and missile tanks, infantry and howitzers. The Lothlorien game is exceedingly rare, which would make its inclusion on Wikipedia somewhat difficult.

I'll drop by and leave some source links - and have the presence of mind to sign in - at some point in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.77.239 (talk) 20:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:Fictional tanks
@Newimpartial: Regarding your edit, I meant that categories should reflect characteristics of the article's subject—in this case, the subject is a (real) board game and not a fictional tank. I recognize that the tank is a central component of the game, so perhaps Category:Tanks in fiction would be appropriate. Do you have any concerns with recategorizing the article in that manner? -- Black Falcon (talk) 00:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

 * @Newimpartial: Ping. -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Yeah. I never really worked out whether Category:Tanks in fiction is a great fit, since the game is rather off-centre for the category (and the Ogre is a fictional tank par excellence rather than a tank in fiction in the usual sense). However, after reflecting on WP:CATDEF, I can't really defend the fictional tank categorization, so I have come to accept the inevitable. Newimpartial (talk) 17:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks for weighing in. I know the line between fictional [X] and [X] in fiction can be grey at times—typically, the former is a set category and the latter a topic category. Cheers, -- Black Falcon (talk) 06:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

GA Reassessment Notes
I opened the GA reassessment page, but also will insert some of the notes here that depict the quality of this article subsequently with the revisions being observed and the expansion of various sections, which have somewhat enhanced the articles. However, numerous suggestions remain desired:

1. General deficiencies in prose for GA:

Numerous especially short paragraphs typically comprising a single sentence are nevertheless present, including 'Publication History', with the first sections including acceptable detail but the later ones remaining especially superficial, with profoundly little information. Those are required to be enhanced in my opinion for GA status.

2. Lack of structure and focus:

From my perspective, the article is flawed in structure, with sections and subsections of widely oscillating quality and length which remain an issue. The 'Other reviews and commentary' seem unnecessary given its relatively short and shallow content, and should in my opinion be combined with the 'Reception'. Despite several expansions of the 'Spin-offs' sections, try to add more information and references for the subsections of 'Video games' (e.g., a compendious summary on the game's differences with the original and reception), 'Role- playing games' and 'Books'. The 'Board games' and 'Miniatures and miniature wargaming' seems to have appropriate information but prose could be improved by enhancing detail and possibly either combining those in a paragraph or adding more details about each.

3. Numerous subsections possibly unnecessary:

Several aspects of the article remain largely unchanged, such as the 'Game description'. Despite the content being commendable in depth and detail, the division of the section into six subsections have resulted in some being scarce in detail and overtly short in length for a GA (e.g., 'Setting'). I believe that some of those could be combined (particularly 'Components' and 'Setting'.

As of the article's current form, it still could not satisfy criteria 1, 2 and possibly 6. Therefore, significant improvements are still required in my opinion in the following week to ensure the article could still attain GA status. Once again thanks for your help and apologies for the negative coverage- VickKiang (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Steve Jackson Games
Since SJG published more versions than MC should we add them to the infobox? —¿philoserf? (talk) 14:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

 * More versions, and by a lot I'm sure. I assume the infobox can take more than one publisher, so why not. And thanks again for reassessing this article as B-class, it would be nice to see it get back to GA one day. :) BOZ (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ogre (board game)


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User talk:JoeHine

Hi, Joe. Welcome to Wikipedia. I left some comments for you on the Eberhard Arnold and Bruderhof pages. I look forward to you using your historical knowledge of the subject to expand these pages. - Rlvaughn 22:09, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policy for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Stephen Burnett 12:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:JoeHine


text: User talk:66.185.85.80

title: User talk:66.185.85.80


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List of Sega Saturn games

The Sega Saturn is a 32-bit fifth-generation home video game console that was developed by Sega and released on November 22, 1994, in Japan, May 11, 1995 in North America, and July 8, 1995, in Europe as the successor to the successful Sega Genesis. The Saturn has a dual-CPU architecture and eight processors. Its games are in CD-ROM format, and its game library contains several arcade ports as well as original titles.

Development of the Saturn began in 1992, the same year Sega's groundbreaking 3D Model 1 arcade hardware debuted. Designed around a new CPU from Japanese electronics company Hitachi, another video display processor was incorporated into the system's design in early 1994 to better compete with Sony's forthcoming PlayStation. The Saturn was initially successful in Japan, but failed to sell in large numbers in the United States after its surprise May 1995 launch, four months before its scheduled release date. After the debut of the Nintendo 64 in late 1996, the Saturn rapidly lost market share in the U.S., where it was discontinued in 1998. Having sold 9.26 million units worldwide, the Saturn is considered a commercial failure. The failure of Sega's development teams to release a core game in the Sonic the Hedgehog series, known in development as Sonic X-treme, has been considered a factor in the console's poor performance.

Although the Saturn is remembered for several well-regarded games, including Nights into Dreams, the Panzer Dragoon series, and the Virtua Fighter series, its reputation is mixed due to its complex hardware design and limited third-party support. Sega's management has been criticized for its decision-making during the system's development and discontinuation.

There are  games on this list not including non-game software and compilations of Saturn games. There are 785 Japan-exclusive games, making 75% of the whole list. For games that were announced or in development for the Saturn, but never released, see the list of cancelled Sega Saturn games.

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Talk:ISDN

BRI/PRI are introduced without definition in "Consumer and Industry Perspectives"
I explained the acronyms and added links to articles, but it might be useful for a more knowledgeable editor to weave in more definition. They are then later explained in "Configurations." Perhaps Configurations should appear before Perspectives? Describe the technology THEN describe reaction? I'll let someone else make that change, as it's late and I don't trust my judgment. ;) Cheers. Josh Powell 08:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the original paragraphs some 10 years ago. Previously, the focus of the article was mostly about BRI from a consumer perspective (handsets, plans, etc) and not so much about the signaling protocol. Many people here have pointed out that that BRI is/was obsolete. By introducing the idea of a difference between the consumer and the telephone professional, I was trying to show that ISDN was still a significant technology. What brought me back to this page after many years is that I was watching a video about GSM hacking. In the wireshark message dumps in the video, I saw what looked like ISDN messages, (SETUP, RR, etc). You are correct about the terms not being defined but mostly the idea was to re-orient the conversation away from the consumer point of view and to introduce the idea that ISDN was something more than a way of getting the Internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.235.131.194 (talk) 18:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

See LAPDm for how GSM cellular phone signaling relates to ISDN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.235.131.194 (talk) 18:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed parts of article
Removed 4ESS, 5ESS and DMS-100, which are products and not protocols. Although there may be protocol variants used by these products.

Yaronf 22:11, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

Radio Stations
I dont know if this is correct, but I believe a lot of radio stations used ISDN for studio to studio connections, such as interviews, panel discussions, guests, etc... as well as some times hosts working from home via ISDN connection to the studio.

--Weyoun6 07:52, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * In the 1990s they did, where available, however these days they'd use far more convential internet systems, or occasionally private setups, or leased lines. --Kiand 00:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

me a a user of ISDN

Yep, at The BBC we use ISDN on a regular basis for connecting studios and most crucially for Outside broadcasts. All sporting venues have ISDN and they have proved a perfect solution for years and are not showing signs of vanishing. Unfairly the Network has suffered at the hands of engineer humour too... often labelled 'It Sometimes Dose Nothing'. However this is more often the Codecs problem not the Line. With Telos and SystemBase leading the Market in quality ISDN Codecs we currently broadcast Classical concerts live with almost no loss of quality. this is mostly using 4 bearers (256kbps).

Obsolete?
Is it fair to declare ISDN dead yet?

Where I am in (the UK) it certainly seems to be in all areas where ADSL is available. The main advantage of ADSL through ISDN (being able to directly connect to another ISDN user and have a dedicated line) has been rendered moot by the sheer speed advantage of ADSL. Even with contention and network lag, an 8M/500K ADSL is still going to leave a 128K ISDN line standing, and is much cheaper (again, I can only speak for the UK here)

I've been searching on google and I can't find any information on ISDN that isn't very outdated. Damburger 08:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Whereas internet access as one of the major drivers for initial ISDN take-up has largely been removed, the other (connection of company PBXs to the public network) remains strong and is either still growing or only slowly eroding in the countries that I am aware of. JanCeuleers 12:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

In the US, ISDN appeared to be dead before it became alive. The joke among Bell Labs system engineers who worked on ISDN was that acronym stood for "Integration Subscribers Don't Need" and answered what ISDN is good for with "I Sure Don't kNow". LoopTel 09:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

ISDN is still used for videoconferencing. I am an installer and most of the systems we build have both ISDN and IP connections (both get used on a regular basis at most institutions.) I have heard people talk about ISDN becoming extinct for at least a decade now, but from my perspective this is not the case. ISDN is still a good way to make a videoconference call to another institution without extensive network configuration and without exposing the local data network.

NEED A "ISDN vs. IP" CLARIFICATION -  I recently became involved with videoconferencing and came here to learn the difference between ISDN and IP connections. I often hear people referring to a network connection as being one or the other. After reading the articles on both I feel that a paragraph stating their relation (with respect to videoconferencing) would be very helpful. I'd offer but like I said, I'm a newbie.

--- Obselete for what?
 * For Internet Access? - Yes, DSL and cable modems are much better and faster.
 * As a replacement for POTS? That depends on the country! ISDN was never widespread in most parts of the world, with one exception: the German-speaking countries and especially Germany. A German who is speaking about the "öffentliches Telefonnetz" (the German term for public switched telephone network) will most likely mean "ISDN and POTS"! (Yes, ISDN first!) However, in fact only 30% of the German public circuit-switched telephone network are actually ISDN lines, but that's only because there are so many old fixed telephone lines. I worked for Hansenet, a German telecom, until May last year, and 94% of all new fixed phone lines from this company between January and May last year were ISDN, only the other 6% were POTS lines. The reason for this popularity of ISDN in Germany is very simple: It's the price policy of the German telecoms! For example, an ISDN line from Hansenet costs only 2€ more then a POTS line, but an ISDN line has the 2 B-channels, and at least 3 telephone numbers. And there is Arcor Telecom, the second largest German telecom, which never offered POTS. They prefer to offer Hardware with an integrated terminal adapter to their customers. ISDN is actually the native mode of the German public telephone network (since the network is fully digital since 1995), POTS-service needs additional hardware, either at the side of the customer (Arcor), or at the telephone exchange (Which, however, is always installed at the telephone exchange - with the exception of Arcor, of course.) Even the very most German ADSL lines are bundeled with ISDN, and not with POTS! I think ISDN is as much obselete as POTS! ;) 86.56.0.159 16:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Being a German, I completely agree with what you wrote.
 * Here in Germany, you just order an ISDN line, buy a ISDN-DECT basestation with some handsets, and hand them out to your household members. Now everyone has its own phone number (MSN), up to two people can make calls at the same time, and the phone bill will be splitted by the MSNs. All at very decent prices (compared to POTS).
 * All this seems to be the result of the heavy ISDN marketing efforts Deutsche Telekom has made in the mid-1990s, making ISDN well-known and the equipment prices low.
 * --213.39.187.230 20:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Here in Colombia, medium and big Enterprises uses ISDN very regulary, and not only for videoconferences.

Here in Australia. Telstra (National monopolistic communications carrier) no longer offer ISDN at all. As a result those of us unwilling to pay for Telstra's replacement offerings, (Wireless or Sat) suffer dialup speeds. (Or if your like me.. Connected thru a RIM exchange.. You get 31.2 kbps connects) During 2007 Telstra dropped Home ISDN as an option. Forcing would be ISDN customers to declare themselves a "business" and pay a "business" premium to aquire ISDN. Late 2008 ISDN was no longer being offered by Telstra in any form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.1.19 (talk) 21:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Business Use:
ISDN is still in massive use (even in the USA) for connecting multiples of 30/24 (PRI – E1/T1) voice channels to PBX and other switching gear.

Needs timestamp.

VoIP products:
Specifically IAD (Integrated Access Device's) may have ISDN BRI (S0) or ISDN PRI (E1/T1) interfaces – these IAD are used to front-end legacy equipment (PBX, IPBX), or supply PBX functionality towards the new voip standards (SIP/MGCP) that are now coming to the fore

The main reason for using Voip is cost –

1.	An ADSL data link is effectively free - therefore you can have multiples of 30 (E1/T1) or 2 (BRI) voice channels connected for just the price of the ADSL/SHSL monthly connection fee.

2.	 Alternatively you can connect to your own LAN/WAN for no cost (might be an idea to let your network people know first though :})

The main reason for using an IAD is cost –

1.	You do not have to replace your existing equipment and therefore there is little impact for users (and no re-training).

2.	You can just use the IAD without a PBX (connect direct)

3.	You can use other VoIP products connected to the IAD (and restrict their use)

Note: PRI interfaces have normally been connected to SHDSL rather than ADSL - however with the recent innovation such as ADSL2+ and ADSL AnnexM - it is now entirely possible to provision an E1/T1 (depending on the codec used) on a single or bonded ADSL.

Note: The QoS (ATM and IP) of the incumbent network is a vital factor in the quality of the voice. (See articles on DiffServ).

Note: There are also 'mixed' IAD as well - with POTS and ISDN interfaces - some IAD also have SIP Proxy servers enabled to connect up a network of VoIP (SIP) devices and either forward to other networks or just be a private network on its own.

Note: SIGTRAN IUA is also possible on some VoIP 217.207.193.222 (talk) 13:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)IAD

Even in countries like Germany, there is starting to be an uptake on VoIP for BRI - purely for cost reasons (NetCologne are attempting a voip solution for BRI/POTS)

"Backronym"
The article begins with, and then goes on to explain,
 * "Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN)"
 * "The English term is a backronym that was thought to be better for English-language advertisements than the original, "Integriertes Sprach- und Datennetz" (German for "Integrated Speech and Data Net")."

 * Why did you feel a desparate need to reproduce that here? 109.145.22.224 (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Brazil
"in Europe, India and Australia it is 30B+1D, with an aggregate bit rate of 2.048 Mbit/s (E1)"

In Brazil, too. Zwargh 23:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Synchrony, where needed, is an important factor in ISDN's favor
1. I don't think ISDN belongs so tightly coupled with the notion of Internet access, or TCP/IP, because it works just fine without either. ISDN originated for easily scalable constant-latency low-to-high-bandwidth guaranteed-in-order-arrival digital connections. Point-to-point (dialled ISDN#-to-ISDN#), it is extraordinarily reliable - exactly as reliable as the digital backbone of the public switched telephone network itself, since each packet rides that same network.

2. Internet access via ISDN is facilitated by a gateway which performs protocol conversion from circuit-switched to packet-switched: at this interface, all synchrony guarantees may be lost, since TCP/IP makes no such guarantee. If the upper tier network is ATM or otherwise innately synchronous, then synchrony may still be guaranteed, depending on the service-level agreement. Synchrony is not as critical for internet-access users, but is important to voice and video conference users.

--Lexein 05:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is helpful for non-telco-geeks to understand that to the telco industry, the pipe is separate from Internet service it carries, whether we're talking about ISDN, T1, or DS3. In the most basic terms the pipe is nothing more than a serial data port, over which TCP/IP or anything else can be carried.

 * The end user could just as easily use ISDN to print to a remote serial printer miles away, directly feeding the serial port from the computer into the local ISDN customer premises interface, and the printer into the remote interface, and not using TCP/IP or anything else as an intermediary to carry the data.

 * ISDN somewhat predates the rise of the Internet's popularity, and wasn't explicitly built for that purpose. Videoconferencing equipment that utilizes ISDN in its rawest form is just a point-to-point serial data interface and doesn't need to use TCP/IP at all. Though in this configuration the connection is limited to a single videoconference link between two sites, and cannot utilize advanced TCP/IP routing features like multicast to send from one source to many destinations.

 * This holds true for faster services like T1. You can buy a raw pipe between two points and run your own serial data over it. Or you can buy a pipe that just goes straight to the telco only, on top of which you pay the telco for the separate Internet data service over the pipe from them.

 * DMahalko (talk) 20:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Jaxin Hall
The sentence about Prof. Jaxin Hall of Sussex inventing ISDN in the late 1980's is not correct. I did not delete the sentence because this - by an IP Address - would probably be interpreted as vandalism. ISDN has already been tested before Jaxin Hall supposedly invented it. The problem is that many other web sites copy this incorrect information, but because it is referenced (you need an IEEE usbscription to read the article) no one dares to delete it. MM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.255.87 (talk) 09:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have accessed the IEEE article from my University's network. There is no mentioning of a "Jaxin Hall" anywhere in the document. — 134.100.32.10 16:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The "Jaxin Hall" assertion was made by IP 146.171.254.66 on 20 September 2007 and has nothing to do with the IEEE article. I will remove the assertion. — 134.100.32.10 16:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

ISDN at 128 kbits per second
Don't you think this artical should directly relate to ISDN's speed right at the very beggining or near, sometime after the introduction. And why not? The reference to it as you scroll almost WAY down begins in something like "Because ISDN's speed is only 128kbs," almost as if the article already informed you on the point; which I'm sure most readers looking up ISDN do it for history sake and really want to know it's speed right off. Wikipedia is aimed at the leanient audience, so why be so unbecoming about it. -Bill Mclemore

 * I slightly rewrote the intro to highlight that detail. DMahalko (talk) 05:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I have to say, ISDN is still very big here in Germany. However barely anyone is using it for internet access anymore as DSL is much faster and cheaper than dialup. But it is excellent for families or shared student flats as you get two voice channels and up to 10 phone numbers for only a few euros (2-4) more than analog. ISDN and ADSL on the same line is a very common configuration here. — 213.39.174.131 (talk) 10:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

ISDN is touted for videoconferencing? Are you joking?
I am rather humored to see one of the positive aspects of ISDN being its support for videoconferencing. Has anyone writing about the positive features of ISDN ever even seen its videoconferencing in action? It is plainly just awful. Horribly low-resolution, low-framerate.. When videoconferencing is discussed in the context of ISDN they really mean "videoconferencing via a 320x200 pixel blurred, jumpy mess". Try to do anything serious with it, and it's more of a psychedelic artform that any sort of business conferencing system. DMahalko (talk) 21:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It depends upon how many B-channels you use. Business users often use more than two. ISDN is an excellent system for constant bitrate services like videoconferencing. --213.39.186.137 (talk) 21:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, were I work we use 384KBs ISDN over a T1 for Compressed Video Confrencing using Cisco equipment and its wonderful...Its not FULL HD, but its still good quality and very decent frame rates. -Edwin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.96.153 (talk) 10:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

ISDN
How do I install ISDN ?– —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.230.46 (talk) 12:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

ISDN was never popular in India
Hence I deleted the line:"In India, ISDN was very popular until the introduction of ADSL." There is no evidence, cited or otherwise, of this.

Arunmehtain (talk) 11:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

ISDN Voice Talent --- citable?
Okay, so I see that ISDN voice talent is very common. Many many Google hits for people offering it:

 * http://www.google.com/search?q=ISDN+voice+talent

But can it be cited? Many of these businesses may not be around tomorrow so they probably are not individually good cites. Is there a book on the topic? DMahalko (talk) 06:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Development and history
I notice that there is virtually nothing about how old ISDN is, who developed it, its historical links to technologies that comprise or were originally designed for it, its early deployment history, or its contemporary competitors. 72.235.10.142 (talk) 13:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization
Why is this not done with Title Caps? It seems like it should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stuart P. Bentley (talk • contribs) 18:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

lowercase correct
Dgtsyb, you're confused about and confusing several completely different issues in this reasoning of yours: ''The ISDN. It is a proper noun. IEC like ISO like ITU-T do not capitalize proper nouns in titles (after the French).''

 * 1) As you can see at the International Engineering Consortium link, integrated services digital network is used in the middle of a sentence. The same is true of almost all IEC webpages.
 * 2) The ITU also uses lowercase in the middle of sentences. Some ITU webpages use uppercase, for example when explaining the acronym in a glossary, but most use lowercase. Wikipedia's MOS clearly says to avoid uppercase when not necessary.
 * 3) Carefully edited reference works and publications such as Britannica also use lowercase when explaining acronyms of common nouns like ISDN.
 * 4) Just because a definite article is used before a noun in English does not make it a proper noun; "the" is very commonly used before common nouns.
 * 5) Some organizations (including Wikipedia) do not capitalise common nouns in titles, but they never lowercase proper nouns in titles (or in text).
 * 6) Not uppercasing every word in titles is not French. Most US newspapers have now also adopted this more modern and less baroque style, and UK newspapers and many publishers did this a bit earlier.
 * 7) Please do not revert again while the issue is being discussed here. --Espoo (talk) 12:45, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see discussion on Talk:Asynchronous Transfer Mode — Dgtsyb (talk)

 * You wrote "please stop" after I reverted your removal of valuable info and after I'd asked you to not do so and to not revert until we'd finished the discussion. Please stop that aggressive behavior. Don't you think it'd be better to first discuss?

 * Don't you agree that you cannot prevent the addition of the info from reliable sources? You can perhaps prevent uppercase use in WP, but you cannot prevent the addition of the info that many if not most distinguished and reliable organisations and publishers use lowercase. By simply repeatedly removing that info you're definitely weakening your chances of defending your preference because it definitely looks like you're afraid your position is so weak it won't hold if the lowercase info comes out. --Espoo (talk) 17:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Please see discussion on Talk:Asynchronous Transfer Mode — Dgtsyb (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

India
Cleaned up the India section. Rdf0 (talk) 15:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Link to Reference point useless?
The Reference points section of this article (as well as the S interface, T interface and U interface articles) link to a Reference point article which merely is redirected to the generic Reference article, while the Reference Point article is about a Jazz album. The information in the Reference points section is far better.

I propose that the Reference point link is removed from this section and that other occurrences within the scope of ISDN is updated to point to this section. I might even get around to do this myself, unless spectacularily shot down here... 8) --Rootmoose (talk) 15:46, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: nomination withdrawn (non-admin closure). Jenks24 (talk) 01:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Integrated Services Digital Network → Integrated services digital network –

Per WP:CAPS and WP:TITLE: this is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. (ISDN is a set of standards, not a titled standard itself.) In addition, WP:MOS says that a compound item should not be upper-cased just because it is abbreviated with caps. Matches the formatting of related article titles Tony   (talk)  23:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose: the title is a proper noune for same reasons given above, here and here. — Dgtsyb (talk) 01:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose: "a set of standards" is just another wording for "protocol stack" to manage the complexity of it (see OSI model), but Integrated Services Digital Network is the name of this stack, the name of a communications standard. -- SchreyP (messages) 06:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It is a proper noun, both in the sense that one single network was envisioned (as in the Internet) as well as standards that are all rooted in the same basic documents (as in Asynchronous Transfer Mode). Very different meaning that the words taken together in their normal sense. Open standards can be proper nouns too, not just trademarks, if they refer to one specific thing. W Nowicki (talk) 18:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm convinced. Withdrawing request. Tony   (talk)  03:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is [ISDN]/circuit-switched dead?
In the lead: "ISDN is a circuit-switched"

"Virtual circuit switching is a packet switching technology"

I know my country has ISDN; you tend to not think of it, is at least non-ISDN circuit-switched (CN) dead? I tent to view IDSN not as CN, but packet switching, is CN (e.g. PSTN except for the numbering system) dead, with or without ISDN? [I know of PBX as a possible exception; but even those VoIP..). comp.arch (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 14 April 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 23:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Integrated Services Digital Network → ISDN – Per WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:ACROTITLE. See Google Ngram here. For a different in book titles, see here versus here. There are far more books that use the abbreviation in the title. The abbreviation is also primarily used for this subject, which means the abbreviation should be used as the title per MOS:ACROTITLE. PhotographyEdits (talk) 17:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per Britannica.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per above. YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:ISDN


text: User talk:204.52.215.66

title: User talk:204.52.215.66