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Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)

Abbreviated institution and place names in running text
What would you suggest in terms of naming conventions for cases in which a new (name of an) institution, company or location comes up within a continuous text passage? (But for which exists no own Wikipedia page...) In such cases I would normally - to be most precise - like to add the official Hangeul name in parenthesis. This way, later cross-referencing and general identification of the institution/location in question might hopefully improved. As this pertains to the actual WP content and thus to neither to the article title nor potential template boxes (of which there usually may only be one?), what is the common practice in this regard? Adding Hangeul in parenthesis is (imho) sensible, until one has to also contemplate if and in which order (where) to use the English abbreviation of the romanized / official English name. Furthermore, it doesn't seem that there is a consistent convention for parenthesis content, as non-romanized names sometimes are prefixed by the term "Hangul:" or more broadly by "Korean:" and then again by no term. --Philipp Grunwald (talk) 16:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion for given names
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:An Ji-Man which affects this guideline. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Sawol (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

North Korean names
Please see a discussion about this at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Korea-related_articles.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Notification of RFC for Korean MOS in regard to romanization
Should we use McCune-Reischauer or Revised for topics relating to pre-1945 Korea? Those inclined, please contribute here. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 06:23, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

"-eup can be omitted." ?
-eup can be omitted. I disagree this sentence in Naming conventions (Korean). Because there are many disambiguation towns (eup) like Cheorwon(철원), Gangjin(강진), Yecheon(예천), Geochang(거창), Hadong(하동), Goseong(고성), Yeongdong(영동) etc. So, people can be confused --ㅂㄱㅇ (talk) 02:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

bridges
Naming_conventions_(Korean) section is empty. How about to add this? 'For bridges, the full unhyphenated Korean name including daegyo or gyo'' should be used, as in Incheondaegyo. If disambiguation is needed, "bridge" can be added -- see Disambiguation. This convention applies to bridges without an accepted English name. If a different name has been established in common English usage, it should be used, per Use common names.''' --ㅂㄱㅇ (talk) (ㅂ|Bieup ㄱ|Giyeok ㅇ|Ieung) 02:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Why are we calling Hangul "Chosŏn'gŭl" in North-Korea-related articles?
I understand, of course, that "Chosŏn'gŭl" is the preferred native name of the Hangul script in official North Korean usage, but why are we following that convention in North Korean articles? Surely, our naming practices should follow WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Is "Chosŏn'gŭl" ever used in lieu of "Hangul" in a majority of reliable English-speaking sources? As far as I can see, this script is only ever called "Hangul" in international English usage; that's its established English name, and for all I can see it's the only significant one it has. Official native terminology should play no role in our naming choices.

Can anybody point out if and when a consensus for this odd usage was established on Wikipedia? I can't find it discussed anywhere, but it seems to have been around for quite a while, apparently since before 2006 according to the history of Infobox Korean name. This does not seem to be in line with our current policies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:49, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

 * Having received no feedback here for three days despite notifications on several relevant articles and noticeboards, I intend to go ahead and remove the "north=Chosŏn'gŭl|old=Hunminjeongeum" parameters from the relevant templates, Infobox Korean name and Korean. Will post further notifications on the template talkpages and wait for a bit more first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Those terms also find use in via Module:Infobox multi-lingual name in function  .  Perhaps notification at that infobox template's talk page is appropriate.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the context=north and that then changes how a few fields in the Infobox are displayed? I'm not very well versed in various Wiki policy so I cannot speak of when/how a consensus was made or the rational at that time. I think the reason why previous editors added that code was, at least at that time and quite possibly still today, the English literature on a number of North Korea related content used some of the North's specific spellings as that Korea is a different Korea and things are spelled differently there. Well, there and Yanbian China as well as those native Korean speakers typically used North style words and spellings. As Kpop and South Korean imports have passed those by the North into that area of China, their spellings are changing. Yes, in English South Korean Romanization is normally Hangul but in a North Korea context the rules are different and I honestly think the pages that display it different help me to better understand that context better. Note: I don't check talk pages often so I'll put a note on my calendar to stop by here again in a few days. ₪Rick n Asia₪ 06:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not referring to the way the names themselves are presented or transliterated (I understand we use different Latin transliterations for North Korean and South Korean names, which is fine as far as I'm concerned, and there were repeated discussions about that). What I'm speaking of is merely the label naming the writing system, which was presented as "Hangul" for South Korean names, but "Chosongul" for North Korean ones, even though both labels refer to the exact same thing, the common Korean script. I have found this discussion in the archives in the meantime. It was a conversation between three editors back in 2005 and seems to have been the only one where this was ever discussed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

who are probably our best experts on Korean. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the ping. I never follow these kind of talk pages unless I stumble across one by mistake. ₪Rick n Asia₪ 06:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best to leave it as it is. While the term "Hangul" is undoubtably used more than "Chosongul", "Chosongul" is what it's called in North Korea. Using Korean terms for North Korean things that are not used in North Korea is not desirable. It would be misleading to tell readers that the North Korean alphabet is called "Hangul". It's not called in North Korea. What next? Calling North Korean places and people by South Korean names? This is just dogmatic and will lead to misinformation and confusion. No, please, no!--Jack Upland (talk) 10:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * But there is no such thing as a "North Korean alphabet". There is only a single alphabet, the Korean one, and its name in English is "Hangul" (or simply "Korean", which is something we could also use just as well). Our naming policy is to use the names our English readers are most familiar with, not the names that happen to be used natively in some other country. There's nothing "misleading" or "confusing" about that: WP:USEENGLISH. I don't see why we should want to make an exception from this general principle just for this country. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I would accept using the "Korean alphabet" as this is more informative for the ordinary viewer. However, the writing of Korean is different in the North rather than the South. And using the term "Hangul" implies that this is what it is called in North Korea, which is false.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * About simply calling it "Korean" (especially in the inline Korean template): the more I think about it, the more I think that would actually the most reader-friendly and consistent approach. The question is whether we should then still link the term to the article about the script, or rather to the article about the Korean language, which would be analogous to what we do with other foreign-script templates of that kind. I'm less sure about the Infobox Korean name. As for the differences in the actual writing practices, I don't see how those are relevant here: they are quite minor, and in no way lead to a point where we'd have to say that the northern "Chosongul" and the southern "Hangul" are actually two different scripts. These are not two different things, but a single thing that happens to have two different native names, independently of the minor differences in the actual letters. And as for the perception that "using the term 'Hangul' implies that this is what it is called in North Korea" – well, no, it simply doesn't. Using the term Hangul in English implies no more and no less than that that is its English name. If you disagree, I'd have to ask you to show actual sources: international English publications that do what you propose doing here, using "Chosongul" when writing about North Korean topics. Naming practices on Wikipedia are supposed to do just that: mirror what our reliable sources do. I haven't been able to find any among the sources we cite in our relevant articles. Even the book source we cite in the infobox of the North Korea article for the fact that "Chosongul" is the country's official script doesn't actually do what you want us to do; it uses "Hangul" to make that statement. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with 's conclusion that "hangul" is misleading in North Korean context, but for a slightly different reason. Both gul and gul literally translate to "Korean script", but the connotations are strongly with South and North Korea, respectively, because these are the respective names of Korea used in these countries. Thus "Hangul" in North Korean contexts is, while not outright wrong, a bit awkward. It's a bit like calling kanji "Chinese script", which we fortunately don't have to do because "kanji" is so established in English-language sources. For the same reason, I'll write choson-ot instead of hanbok, when the context is NK, even though the latter is the common "English" spelling.

 * As for using simply "Korean", I note that many equivalent templates for many non-latin script languages do that. That would point to general support toward such a move. But personally, I find the solution in all of these languages awkward. "Moon Jae-in", "Mun Jae-in", "Mun Chae-in" "문재인文", and "在寅" are all Korean; the first three are romanized Korean, the others are Korean rendered in hangul and Korean using hanja, respectively. All are Korean.

 * , naming conventions are first and foremost about article titles, and we're not discussing about moving anything here. In terms of article titles, WP:COMMONNAME is the only way to go. Sure, it's good practice to use the common name in other articles as well – when applicable. But this isn't a hard fast rule. Consider this especially in light of Manual of Style/Korea-related articles: we've agreed to waive a uniform common name approach and use North Korean spelling and romanization (MR) for North Korea articles, and South Korean spelling and romanization (RR) for South Korea articles. Here, consistency across natural sets of topics trumps a universal approach.

 * A note on sources. The standard practice in anglophone academic Korean studies is to use MR for both South and North Korea articles, whereas sources originating in each country tends to stick to their own romanizations. Consequentially, a blind "follow the RS" approach would counterintuitively probably mean just using MR for everything, even though that's not the official script in South Korea any more. My point is, that this is primarily about what makes sense within the context of a set of articles rather than what is the overall common name (so more of a "WP:ENGVAR" thing than simply WP:USEENGLISH). – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:56, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Finnusertop, thanks for your thoughtful response and sorry for the late reply. I still disgree. Contrary to what you say, the principle of "use common English names" does apply to article text just as much as it does to article titles. It does so, not because of this or that WP policy, but because that's the only way to produce reader-friendly articles. We follow the naming practices of our sources, because that means following the principle of "least astonishment" for our readers. Speaking of astonishment, I'm a person fairly knowledgable about languages and writing systems, so I did know what "Hangul" means (that being the common English name), but I'm damned if I ever heard or saw the term Chosongul before stumbling across it on some Wikipedia article. It was completely opaque to me and I had to follow the links to figure out what was going on. That's not the way Wikipedia ought to work.
 * As for the matter of Romanization systems (which, I repeat, is not what I wanted to discuss here, but since you bring it up:) if, as you say, there is a conflict between usage in "anglophone academic Korean studies" and "sources originating in each country" about the spellings of South Korean names, then the decision between those is still a matter of WP:COMMONNAME. It may very well make sense to favor the non-academic local sources over the others, if those are considered to be what English readers are more likely to be familiar with. But that's not an exception to the "follow the sources" rule; it's precisely its correct application.
 * So, at the end of the day, the challenge still stands: no matter how well-considered the opinion of Wikipedia editors may be that using "Hangul" for the North is somehow "inconsistent" or "inappropriate", without sources to support such a practice that opinion is simply not relevant. If only "Chosongul" was appropriate in that context, then surely we ought to be able to point to reliable sources that use it. I haven't seen a single one so far. Can you point me to any? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

 * I agree with Jack Upland. "Hangul" is South Korea's political name for the Korean alphabet (as noted above, South Korea calls itself "han-guk" in Korean, whereas North Korea is "Joseon"). North Korea does not use hangul, it uses Joseongul/Chosŏngŭl. Alternatively, to avoid the controversy, it could just be "in Korean." Added by Incogreader (talk • contribs) 16:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC) edited 7/6/2019

I also happen to completely agree with, , and. We should use "Chosungul" for the North and "Hangul" for the South. If not that, then we should just use the neutral all-encompassing term "Korean" for all articles and link to page on the language and not the script as we usually don't link to Latinate or Cyrillic, for instance. And local considerations absolutely do matter, which is why we use UK English on UK-related articles, for instance (thus why the article on the England national football team is located under that name and not "England national soccer team" for example). And for romanization we use RR on South Korean and MR on North Korean too. Lastly, invoking WP:USEENGLISH is odd here, since neither "Hangul" or "Chosongul" are English words, or if they are, then they are both equally English words. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 07:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Challenge still stands: Sources, please. Without reliable sources using such a naming practice, any WP:LOCALCONSENSUS favouring it is irrelevant and invalid in light of our general naming policies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Re to your last point: No, quite clearly, "Hangul" is the most common name in English, and as such it is an English word (though of course not a native but a borrowed one). It's even in Merriam-Webster's dictionary . "Chosongul" isn't, because nobody outside Wikipedia uses it in English. Challenge still stands: Sources please, or literally nothing of what you've been saying here has any relevance whatsoever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, the Oxford English Dictionary says that "Hangul" appeared in English in the 1950s (i.e., after the division), and prior to that, the alphabet was known as "Onmun".--Jack Upland (talk) 00:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * One cannot discuss about (Hangeul=Chosŏn'gŭl) in isolation. There is also 한자 (=Hanja-Hancha). Don't even try to translate the later as "Chinese". And thus the former cannot be translated as "Korean". In fact, the best educated translation of Hangeul/Chosŏn'gŭl would be "our writing, as of now" since Han-geul alludes to HanMinguk (대한밍욱) and Chosŏn'gŭl alludes to ChosŏnMin...guk. As a result, "Hangul" is not how SK or NK are (separately) describing their (common) alphabet. Moreover, this term was coined by the 1911 anti-Japanese activists and therefore doesn't take a SK/NK side. As a result, Hangul can be branded as a politically correct neutral English term. Being also the far most usual wording in English, this term could be used everywhere. But this would undermine the rule: use NK methods when writing about NK, taken as an argument to keep the dual romanization RR/McC. Ah lala, nothing is simple!  Pldx1 (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Romanization of names
We have rules for typical 3 syllables (1 family + 2 given) names, but nothing regarding not typical names. What with 4 syllables names? Example: 3 syllables given names. Should we write it same as 2 syllables names (hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized)? E.g. Hong Ah-mo-gae. If this is correct, it should be added to rules. Similar question to 2 syllables family names. Usually are written as a joined word, but no written rule regarding that. E.g. Dokgo Young-jae. KarlHeintz (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * There are 2 syllables family names such that Dokgo, Dongbang, Hwangbo, Hwangmok, Jegal, Mangjeol, Namgung, Sagong, Seomun, Seonu, and so on. They have already established themselves with no hyphen in English Wikipedia. There are 3 syllables (2 family + 1 given) names like Hwangbo In. Hyphenating the syllables as Hwang-bo In puts in confusion of family name Hwangbo and given name Hwang-bo. Sawol (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding 2 syllables family names I agree that there is established rule in English Wikipedia to write it as joined word without hyphen. My point in this case is that this rule should be added to Naming conventions (Korean) page. Generally in Wikipedia this rule is followed, but I have seen e.g. Namgung written as Nam Goong. But main problem is with 3 syllables given names, because these names are usually are written wrong: first syllable of given name is treated as family name and given name is made from last 2 syllables. In example I gave before: Hong Ah Mo-gae. Example from modern names: 임메아리 in Wikipedia is written as Im Me Ah-ri, according to me should it be Im Me-ah-ri. KarlHeintz (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The name for Sea of Japan
Regardless of articles relating to Japan or Korea or whatever countries, the term "Sea of Japan" should be used following the international custom since this is an English Wikipedia. Instead, the term "East Sea" which is a term in common use in only Korea should be used in Korean Wikipedia alone. Here's a previous instance. Eddal (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * "East Sea" is not a term in common use even in Korea. It is called "동해" (Donghae) in Korean. "East Sea" is a mere English translation of Korean name "동해" (Donghae).―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I strongly disagree with putting down both Sea of Japan and "East sea" from a neutral perspective. The term "Donghae" or "East sea" is merely adopted in Korea only. Whether related to Korea or not, Sea of Japan only should be used as Sea of Japan is in common use in English and widely accepted in many large intergovernmental organizations. This is English Wikipedia, NOT Korean Wikipedia. Eddal (talk) 21:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear User:Eddal. I am not sure of how to parse your last message. Are you saying: "this is the Wikipedia in English language, not the Wikipedia in Korean language" or are you saying "this is the Wikipedia of U.S., not the Wikipedia of T.H.E.M." ? Pldx1 (talk) 08:22, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

 * Dear Pldx1. Of course, I mean the former. Obviously, English is spoken not only in the U.S. but all over the world. (I thought a.n.y.o.n.e can edit Wikipedia, but actually not correct ?) Eddal (talk) 15:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Dear User:Eddal. This sea should be called as "Sea of Stupidity" to acknowledge how ineffective were the two governments of Korea when arguing against the name "Sea of Japan". Seen from Vladivostok, this is rather the "South sea". Proposing the "Whale sea" would have been politically correct, and probably successful, but this wasn't done. Have a good day ! Pldx1 (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Sea of Japan guideline
The current instructions on Sea of Japan is not in line with naming policies and should be completely struck. As long as the page name is Sea of Japan, that is the only form that should be used in running text in Wikipedia. The exceptions would be 1) a mention on the Sea of Japan page in the same manner we cover non-English names for any geographic entity and 2) the article on the dispute itself. --Khajidha (talk) 12:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * +1 to what Khajidha says. The rule (about using parenthetical "East Sea" after "Sea of Japan" in Korea-related articles) was created back in 2005 or thereabouts, through a "vote" between a handful of participants, and hasn't kept up with the development of our general naming guidelines and policies. As such, it is at best a "WP:LOCALCONSENSUS" that's no longer valid, as it contradicts the larger, project-wide consensus about how such things should be handled ("Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale"). The actual rule we need to follow is "use common English names", nothing else. The only valid argument for retaining the "East Sea" variant would be if a large portion of reliable English-language literature could be shown to use this variant when dealing with Korean topics, but apparently they don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Default policy on given names with three or more syllables: Should there be hyphens or not?
Currently, there are Shin Saimdang (with no hyphens) and Lee Bom-so-ri (with hyphens).

Well, a given name with three or more syllables are not common, but what should be the default policy when there is no personal preference? Should hyphens be inserted between every single syllable (like Bom-so-ri above), or not (like Saimdang above)?

I would like to leave a suggestion: When there is no personal preference, do not insert a hyphen in given names that are three or more syllables long.

(Personally I'm against inserting a hyphen even in two-syllable given names (e.g. Hong Gildong instead of Hong Gil-dong), but inserting a hyphen in two-syllable given names seems to be what English-language media usually do.) 182.172.59.84 (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

There is also the section above. Here is another suggestion with that section in consideration:

 * For personal names, when there is no personal preference and no established English spelling, join syllables (i.e. do not insert a hyphen or space), with the following exceptions:
 * Use a space between the family name and the given name
 * Insert a hyphen between syllables in a two-syllable given name, with only the first syllable capitalized (e.g. Hong Gil-dong)
 * The second exception does not apply to given names with three or more syllables (e.g. Shin Saimdang, not Shin Sa-im-dang) and to polysyllabic family names (e.g. Namgung, not Nam-gung).

Probably other people should be aware of this, but I don't know who to notify. For now I'm notifying, who seems to be still active. 76.102.5.114 (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

76.102.5.114 is right. English Wikipedia puts Korean given names into forms separated by one or more hyphen (e.g. Lee Bom-so-ri, Yeon Gae-so-mun, Kim Jong-un). South Korean government rules given names with a joined word (e.g. Lee Bomsori, Yeon Gaesomun, Kim Jongun). North Korean government's system used a space between every syllable (e.g. Lee Bom So Ri, Yon Kae So Mun, Kim Jong Un). South Korean government's old romanization system used one or more hyphen between syllables before 2000. English Wikipedia seems to be following the old romanization system of South Korea. Sawol (talk) 06:27, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

 * Actually, that's not what 76.102.5.114 is saying. They are saying (or proposing) that (when there is no personal preference and no established English spelling) hyphens should not be used in given names with three or more syllables, which means full names like 이봄소리 should be romanized as Lee Bomsori, not Lee Bom-so-ri.
 * I agree with what they said — i.e. no hyphens by default, only except in two-syllable given names. --216.16.109.115 (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

North Korean names
Following this recent discussion on Talk:Kim Jong-un, should we remove hyphen from names (e.g. Kim Il Sung, per official sources) and leave it unhyphenated. This can change per consensus via Naming conventions (Korean). Surveyor  Mount  00:26, 8 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE --216.16.109.115 (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Changing of naming conventions
Given the local consensus achieved at Kim Jong Un (formerly Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il, and Kim Il-sung), I'd like to propose a change in naming conventions for North Koreans to prefer the transliteration Kim Jong Un (one segment per syllable, each capitalized) over the transliteration Kim Jong-un. As was demonstrated during the request for move at Kim Jong Un, this spelling is broadly used by reliable secondary sources (being the one supported by the AP Stylebook) for North Korean names and is the one preferred by North Korea.

Given the local consensus achieved at Park Chung Hee (formerly Park Chung-hee), I'd like to propose a second change to the naming conventions to support the un-hyphenated romanization of Korean names for South Koreans who gained prominence prior to the 1980s/90s (the shift in naming conventions in favor of hyphens occurred at this time - this proposal would not restrict articles on South Koreans from continuing to use hyphens). The article Park Chung Hee has already been moved, but there are numerous other articles of historical South Koreans that are currently not found at their WP:COMMONNAME, including:

 * Kim Jae-gyu (instead of Kim Jae Kyu )
 * Chun Doo-hwan (instead of Chun Doo Hwan )
 * Choi Kyu-hah (instead of Choi Kyu Hah )
 * Shin Joong-hyun (instead of Shin Joong Hyun)
 * Chough Pyung-ok (instead of Chough Pyong Ok )
 * Lee Ki-poong (instead of Lee Ki Poong )

 * Agree on both proposals. toobigtokale (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think any of those five ngrams links demonstrates WP:COMMONNAME for the unhyphenated version. (As for the first graph for Kim Jae-kyu, it's missing some combinations of hyphenation and spelling: .) For historical figures we look to the practice of modern secondary sources, which may or may not follow older spellings. (It's the same for historical place names.) Also, I think "gained prominence prior to the 1980s/90s" would be too nebulous of a standard and needs work. Adumbrativus (talk) 08:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oop good catch for Kim Jae Kyu! I'm not entirely certain on the standard either, which is why I brought it here. The reason why I brought it here is because I don't think the naming conventions should be a blanket support for one variant of spelling.
 * Generally, in my reading of Korean topics, English-language sources published from Korea support the newer hyphenated spellings, but with mixed usage for people with established names among English-language sources outside of Korea. In particular, academic sources, literature, and the American government tend to use the older, more-established spellings, while news organizations, particularly those from Korea, tend to prefer the newer spellings.
 * I think the better way to phrase what I'm proposing is: These people are prominent as historical figures, and unless there is an abundance of contemporary coverage on the figures, I think its better to recommend that the historical spellings be preferred. For historical figures where English-language coverage is difficult to find, it is much more likely that these people will be covered in the older transliteration (no hyphen and MR), meaning having a policy that blanket supports having these articles at their RR names actively hurts our readers' ability to find these articles.
 * Of course, WP:COMMONNAME trumps all, and that should obviously be stated in the policy, but I think its unhelpful for the policy to support blanket hyphenization, when that's oftentimes not the WP:COMMONNAME for historical South Koreans. : 3 F4U (they/it) 14:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Family name
I'd like to propose changing the "family name" section from

Unless the subject is known to prefer otherwise such as Kim, Lee, or Park, family names are romanized per Revised Romanization (RR) for South Koreans and pre-1945 Koreans, or McCune–Reischauer (MR) for North Koreans.

to the following:

Unless the subject is known to prefer otherwise such asGim, Yi, or Bak, family names are romanized perthe transliteration found at Category:Korean-language surnames.

The romanizations of Kim, Lee, Park, Choi, Kang, Han, etc. are overwhelmingly more common than either a strict reliance on MR or RR. The transliteration Park, for example, is neither MR or RR, but is more common, by an astounding margin, than Bak or Pak. : 3 F4U (they/it) 01:24, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

 * Agree on this too. toobigtokale (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with the general idea of using clearly established spellings even if they are non-systematic. I think the guideline should state the basic idea, a couple illustrative and non-exhaustive examples, and not much else. I'd propose something like this in substance: For many family names, such as Kim, Lee, and Park, there is a single clear common spelling, which is not necessarily the Revised Romanization or McCune–Reischauer romanization. In such cases, family names are romanized according to the common spelling, if the subject has no known personal preference.I recommend against specifically citing Category:Korean-language surnames. First, without more, that just begs the question of how those pages' titles should be decided. Second, individual members of the category are not necessarily well vetted, and category members will change over time as articles may be added, removed, merged, or moved. It's best for the guideline not to endorse, or appear to endorse, everything in the category. Lastly, the category contains names which are not exclusively Korean, and also some variant spellings, and so those don't necessarily reflect the common name in the context of Korean romanization. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Addendum: In my wording above, I'm leaving the door open for the possibility that a surname might have no clear common spelling at all. That would unlike any of the cases we've explicitly discussed, which have all been clear. It's probably not too frequent. I'd let this subsection of the guideline be silent on that, and leave it up to more general principles. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Mhm, I get what you mean. I think endorsing "Kim", "Lee", "Park", "Jung", "Choi", "Cho", "Kang", and "Yoon" as the commonly accepted spellings of Korean surnames would be good. At the very minimum, the naming conventions shouldn't be endorsing blanket RR surnames which are very much not the common spellings. : 3 F4U (they/it) 14:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd also note something @Toobigtokale mentioned, which I agree with, which is that this also contradicts the recommendations in the MOS for Korean articles, which recommends MR romanization for topics pre-1945 (something I believe is much better reflected in common usage). : 3 F4U (they/it) 14:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I do agree the current section is very problematic and promotes rare RR variants of family names, over well-established transliterations, as per @Freedom4U. However, instead of using Category:Korean-language surnames as basis, I propose using the 성씨 로마자 표기 방안: 마련을 위한 토론회 [Plan for romanisation of surnames: a preparatory discussion] created by the National Institute of the Korean Language (also the creators of RR). Using the data provided in pages 57-62, we find that Kim (99.3%), Lee (98.5%), Park (95.9%), Kang (96.9%), Cho (73.1%), Moon (73.5%), Ko (67.5%), Woo (97.0%), etc are the more common transliterations compared to their RR and/or MR counterparts. For pre-1945 Koreans, I do think that either Revised Romanization or McCune–Reischauer romanization should be used. When reading from an academic paper or book, the historical figures are often known by their MR names, such as Yi Chagyŏm rather than Lee Ja-gyeom, or Yu Tŭkkong rather than Yoo Deuk-gong. Another thing that should be addressed is the attempt by some to translate the family name 김 as "Gim", supposedly based on the principles of Revised Romanization. However, most published works that do use Revised Romanization overwhelming translate 김 as "Kim" when used as a surname. For example, in A History of Korea (Third Edition) by Kyung Moon Hwang, it uses Kim Yu-sin and Kim Hong-do, rather than Gim Yu-sin and Gim Hong-do that Wikipedia currently uses. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Question
Romanized Chinese titles get to keep ü (e.g. Lüchun County) and romanized Japanese titles get to keep macrons (e.g. Kōchi Prefecture). But why do McCune–Reischauer-romanized Korean titles have to drop breves and apostrophes (e.g. Munchon, not Munch'ŏn)? 125.4.19.70 (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I'm also bugged by this and a bit jealous of Japanese titles that have markings. Now that I give WP:TSC a closer read, maybe we should preserve markings for MR titles and turn the non-marked versions into redirects. The titles with diacritics are the proper titles; the names without diacritics don't make sense to anybody. toobigtokale (talk) 09:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

McCune–Reischauer in titles
Proposing that we allow McCune–Reischauer special characters (ŏ, ŭ, ') in titles for place names. Applying them in the title but not in the body is confusing, and doesn't even abide by WP:TSC: Sometimes the most appropriate title contains diacritics... This can make it difficult to navigate to the article directly. In such cases, provide redirects from versions of the title that use only standard keyboard characters. The most appropriate title would be the North Korean standard, which is what is being followed in the body anyway.

I propose deleting (except that ŏ, ŭ, and the apostrophe (') are not used in article titles, although they may be used in article bodies).

Note that to my understanding, the use of diacritics for non-place article titles isn't explicitly prohibited or encouraged. I think we ideally should write a section for article titles to make our practices clearer, but this is my scope for now. toobigtokale (talk) 08:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

 * It looks like this is actually from a technical restriction that existed in the very early years of Wikipedia. Now that such a restriction is gone, there does not seem to be a reason to prohibit breves and apostrophes in article titles.
 * From Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)/Archive 4 (note that this was in 2006):
 * "Actually I would like to revisit that provision, which (IMO) has long outlived its usefulness. The 'no diacritics or apostrophes' provision was originally put in place for technical reasons (as I recall, it was once impossible to have a well-formed article title containing an apostrophe). However, those days are long behind us, and the existing guideline only encourages (nay, enforces!) sloppiness. I would suggest that the diacritics/apostrophe exception, quoted above, be stricken from the naming conventions."
 * But there are some issues with using breves and apostrophes.
 * Characters with a breve ( ŏ ŭ Ŏ Ŭ ): People often mis-input them as the ones with a caron ( ǒ ǔ Ǒ Ǔ ).
 * Apostrophe: In various MR-romanized text, I have not only seen ' (U+0027, ASCII apostrophe) but also encountered ‘ (U+2018) and ’ (U+2019), and rarely ʻ (U+02BB) and ʼ (U+02BC), and more rarely even ʾ (U+02BE). I guess there are some MR converters outputting these non-ASCII characters, and someone using such a converter may inadvertently use them in article titles.
 * The original MR uses the ’ shape. Article titles in Wikipedia should simply use the ASCII apostrophe.
 * These issues can cause problems with finding existing articles or checking if an article already exists.
 * So maybe it is better not to use breves and apostrophes in article titles. I am not against your proposal though (I am neutral on this issue). 172.56.232.122 (talk) 18:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Good point, although I'll add a bit of nuance. If you use the search bar, Wikipedia does automatic redirects for those swapped characters. However, linking won't work. For example, you can get to Kwŏnŏp Sinmun (with breves) by searching "Kwǒnǒp Sinmun" (with carons), but linking with carons yields a redlink.
 * To try and address this, like MOS:JAPAN we can just tell them to create redirects for the alternative titles. But casual editors probably will never see that instruction.
 * Still, this swapped character issue exists in many other languages as well (including Japanese), yet they still manage to deal with it. I think we can too. toobigtokale (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, note that we already somewhat have this issue with MR and RR. I've yet to see any duplicate articles for MR and RR spellings or MR special character typos. I've only ever seen one for an English spelling variation: Movie theatres in South Korea and Movie theaters in South Korea (I merged them). toobigtokale (talk) 23:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If you need more input, how about a WP:RFC? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * But by the way, are breves and apostrophes really needed in article titles? Article titles are supposed to follow whatever is common in English, and if English text usually omits those symbols, then allowing them probably does not give much benefit.
 * Again, I am not against your proposal. I am just curious about it (also I would like to know the exact policy about article titles). 172.56.232.169 (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * No worries, this is a good discussion, thanks. For convenience, I'll resummarize my reasoning while addressing your point.
 * We should overall abide by WP:TSC (particularly the part that I quote above)
 * We should also abide by WP:COMMONNAME
 * You rightfully point out that in some cases, the common name will not have breves or apostrophes. However, there will be cases that they will have it, particularly in niche historical topics that are mainly covered by academia. Academic papers in most English-language journals about Korea use McCune-Reischauer, and hence breves.
 * Furthermore, if we follow common name we should be consistent about the name we use throughout the body, and not only use a certain name in the title and another in the body. This contradiction is what particularly bothers me; if we were consistent in prohibiting breves across the board (which I think would be unacceptable anyway) I think it'd be less of an issue.
 * If other language style guides on Wikipedia allow special characters and do OK, I don't get why we would be an exception.
 * toobigtokale (talk) 23:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

RFC
See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean). Currently, the Korean naming convention is to not use special characters for titles that use McCune–Reischauer romanization and to only use the special characters in the body. I am proposing that we allow the special characters. toobigtokale (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose. WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS (part of WP:AT policy) opposes this, and you give no argument to overturn it. Without a justification powerful enough to overturn policy, I must oppose. Mathglot (talk) 08:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply, you rightfully point out that I should have been clearer on why I think this is needed.
 * Characters not on a standard keyboard (use redirects): Sometimes the most appropriate title contains diacritics (accent marks), dashes, or other letters and characters not found on most English-language keyboards.
 * From this paper (p. 64):
 * However, quite often the breve and apostrophe are omitted when writing. The breve is not a standard key on a keyboard and many non-native Korean speakers do not feel the need to add apostrophes (National Academy of the Korean Language, 2001). Research by Jeong (1998) and Kim (2006) also conclude that many users don’t use diacritics. Omitting diacritics can cause an extreme amount of confusion. Take for example Shinch’ ŏn (신천) and Shinch’on (신촌). Not only are both of these places in Seoul, but at one time they were both on subway line 2 (the circle line). They are on opposite ends from each other. If you leave out the breves and apostrophes, they are both spelt Shinchon. If you looked up information for a restaurant and the information told you to go to Shinchon Station exit 4, you could have ended up going to the wrong subway station on the wrong side of Seoul. This caused a lot of confusion and inevitably Shinch’ ŏn (신천) station was renamed Jamsilsaenae.
 * The paper lists more examples afterwards. In short, currently, the guideline suggests that we should misspell Korean words (then, oddly, spell it correctly in the body). toobigtokale (talk) 09:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. This is a close call: I think there's a lot of reasonable accessibility concerns (and arguments from pragmatics) that keep our article title policy conservative by nature when it comes to special characters. But diacritics such as these are very much an edge case, and I can see the value of clarity and conformity with the more typographical deep orthography of this particular use of romanized characters.  I agree in principle with Mathglot's first impression analysis above, but I think Toobigtokale has since provided a rational response to that inquiry. To be honest, there is very little downside here as I see it: the average reader unfamiliar with the function of the diacritics is going to interpret the phonetics for most words as similar regardless of whether said diacritics are present or absent, while those more familiar with how they condition the pronunciation are going to get extra nuance.  So this is largely a win-neutral, with little potential that the inclusion of these particular features will create confusion or ambiguity for most readers.  This compares favorably to the (very reasonable) concerns about confusion and/or ambiguity that arise out of allowing so many other types of special characters.  If anything this is a scenario when the inclusion of such characters is in the aggregate more useful to the average reader.  So I think the proposed change is well-considered, when we take into account all context. Sno<b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b> 07:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

 * @Mathglot Pinging in case any other thoughts. If no opposition, I'm considering leaving this discussion open until 2/30, then going ahead and making the change. toobigtokale (talk) 20:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll review again in light of your response, however I suggest you do not make the decision yourself on the outcome of this Rfc on 2/29 (or any other date) but rather request closure from an independent reviewer at WP:Closure requests. Your last statement suggests that you are ready to cut discussion short two weeks early, and while there are only two !votes present. There is no hurry; please let it run its course. In the meanwhile, have you notified appropriate venues to attract more opinions here? If not, please do: see WP:APPNOTE. Mathglot (talk) 21:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh ok; I just didn't really understand protocol, this is the first time I've done something like this. Thanks for pointing out these pages. I think I've reached out to the appropriate places for a change of this calibur (fairly minor and unlikely to impact many pages; common name actually often doesn't use diacritics, so most major places will be unaffected), but am open to suggestions for where else I should reach out. I'll reach out to closure requests at a later date. toobigtokale (talk) 21:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * , just for some further elucidation that might help you out with future RfCs, it's important to know that this is an atypical context, insofar as we are discussing a change to policy.

 * For example, if this were a debate about whether to adopt a different standard for the diacritics in just one article, and taking place on that article's talk page, there wouldn't even necessarily need to be a formal close. Formal closes (ideally by neutral third parties) to well-attended RfCs have become more and more the norm over the years, but if you opened an RfC on an individual article talk page and only two people replied, and one deferred commentary on the core issue and the other more or less agreed with you (as has taken place above in this discussion), you would probably be safe to just skip the closure and implement the change on the assumption that there was a tiny (but undisputed) consensus.  Afterall, the issue could always be revisited if someone later disagreed, and there is the principle of WP:NOTBURO / economy of volunteer time with small matters.

 * However, here we are talking about a change to a policy page, which in turn could impact a large number of articles. In these circumstances, the community expects and requires a much more thorough vetting, hopes for a larger consensus than just a handful of people, and utilizes a much more formalized process.  So as Mathglot notes, it is not advisable to try to close the discussion yourself.  But it would also be an issue to implement changes without a formal close.  As such, my recommendation is as follows: wait for the typical 30 day initial listing period to expire, and if no additional parties have responded by then, relist with the Feedback Request Service, post notices to additional WikiProjects or other spaces which may be active with editors who would take an interest, and wait another 15-30 days.  If after that time no one has further responded, go to WP:AN and request a close.  I appreciate that this is a bit of work, relative to the interest shown in this change so far, but for a change to a WP:PAG, it really is advisable.  Good luck: per my previous comment, I do think the change is advisable. <b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b> 22:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is really helpful, thank you! Read and understood, will keep in mind for future. toobigtokale (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You bet! Thanks for taking the time and interest needed to do it pro forma. :) <b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b> 23:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

 * The current wording (in Naming conventions (Korean)) applies this restriction only to North Korean place names. I also note that that section does not allow for WP:COMMONNAME, but it should. The North Korean capital is correctly titled Pyongyang rather than P'yŏngyang, but because the former is the common name in English-language sources, not because the apostrophe and breve should be dropped. Ditto Kaesong. Lots of other places in NK are seldom mentioned in English-language sources, of course. So I don't think the apostrophe and breve should be forbidden, but they should not be added to names that are common in English-language sources. Kanguole 17:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with your assessment. toobigtokale (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you've hit the nail on the head/identified the appropriate (and commonly accepted) balance. In fact, where the guideline reads "Generally, place names are romanized according to the official romanization system of the country the place is a part of.", that is largely inaccurate--or at least an incomplete picture.  In fact, in both article titles and and content, place names tends to be controlled by COMMONNAME and weight factors beyond any other single factor, almost irrespective of language.  Mind you, for the majority of topics (particularly the more historically relevant rather than more contemporaneously relevant subjects) there is going to be strong overlap between the modern official romanization schema and the commonname, but where they part I agree with you that the commonname should predominate as a matter of encyclopedic practicality, and that this is the approach that is already exercised broadly on the encyclopedia.  <b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b> 04:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Support to allow the usage of special characters in article titles using McCune–Reischauer romanization, provided  that it respects WP:COMMONNAME. While I do agree with the assessment made by other editors that North Korean place names with M-R romanization such as Pyongyang, Kimchaek, or Kaesong shouldn't have special characters in the article title per WP:COMMONNAME, there are topics in where McCune–Reischauer romanization with special characters is the common name, such as the names of historical Korean figures pre-dating 1945. Most journal articles or books use the form with the special characters, such as Wang Kŏn, Kyŏn Hwŏn, or Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn. Kanguole makes a good point in that it does appear that the restriction on special characters only seems to apply to North Korean places, and thus not to pre-1945 Koreans. I would go further and support a revision to WP:NCKO that pre-1945 Koreans use McCune–Reischauer including the special characters, in contrast to modern North Korean names which do not use the special characters. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support allowing special characters when they are used in the topic's WP:COMMONNAME. I largely echo the thinking of CountHacker and SnowRise on this point. For navigation, redirects from the sans-special-character variants of the titles should be sufficient to ensure an easy path to the destination. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

General comment
WP:NCKO and MOS:KO need style revisions imo. NCKO is confusingly organized (e.g. for NCKO, Romanization of names covers people/organization names, but not place names for some reason, which is covered by a separate section Place names. Are place names not names?).

It's hard to parse where to use McCune-Reischauer and where to use Revised Romanization. Perhaps someone should create a table of various scenarios, what system to use, and examples of correct usage.

If someone can step up to do this that'd be appreciated. While I (toobigtokale) still edit Wikipedia here and there, it's usually simple gnome stuff for a few minutes. 187.190.191.57 (talk) 00:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Handling oreum
Jeju oreum aren't currently handled in NCKO. Propose modifying WP:NCKO to read Articles about specific mountains should be titled with the mountain's full unhyphenated Korean name including san, bong, or oreum should be used, as in Seoraksan or Geomunoreum.

Reasoning: I'm not sure there is a WP:COMMONNAME convention for how oreum are named; I'm seeing conflicted usage online. UNESCO has "geomunoreum". However, the visitkorea website has two different spellings:.

I think just proposing one standard that matches how mountain articles are named is easier than hashing out each naming discussion for oreum in future. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 04:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * On July 4 (week after orig post), if no opposition I'll WP:BOLDly make the change. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Support Concerning WP:COMMONNAME, when doing a brief scan I found more links of oreum being combined into one word; for instance, when looking up geomunoreum on ngrams, it only gave back results for the combined word. If it were up to me though, I’d honestly say that oreum should be split up to prevent confusion about syllables, but in the face of COMMONNAME (even in a small sample pool) my preference is neither here nor there. Edit: Struck my support in light of evidence below Dantus21 (talk) 03:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dantus21 Actually now I flip my vote to splitting the name.
 * Common name survey of some famous oreum (just plain google in quotes; some are not really mentioned in the news etc):
 * Geomunoreum 42,300 vs Geomun Oreum 8,980
 * Yongnunioreum 2,940 vs Yongnuni Oreum 29,300
 * Geumoreum 5,070 vs Geum Oreum 3,390
 * Saebyeoloreum 2,460 vs Saebyeol Oreum 14,400
 * Darangswioreum 371 vs Darangswi Oreum 2,110
 * Ttarabioreum 173 vs Ttarabi Oreum 2,190
 * Baekyakioreum 140 vs Baekyaki Oreum 7,240
 * Mulyeongarioreum 70 vs Mulyeongari Oreum 2,950
 * Gamaoreum 58 vs Gama Oreum 592
 * Also, to your point, unlike the leading letters in "san" or "bong", the "o" in "oreum" really lends itself to being ambiguous with the previous syllable. Lots of examples of this in oreum... Around every 5th oreum in this it seems.
 * There's also the fact that names often become really long when combined, making them hard to parse quickly.
 * While I was aiming for more consistency with the rest of the Geography section, we're already inconsistent in it. I think possibly rightfully so, given common name practices, WP:USEENGLISH, etc. Lmk thoughts 211.43.120.242 (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no issues with splitting Dantus21 (talk) 11:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and boldly make the change; if anyone disagrees please poke me and I'm happy to revert and discuss. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Clarify hyphenization MR spelling
Feel like a minor bit should be clarified under "Given name". It's not specified how we should treat voicing for the second particle after a hyphen in names. For example, I ran into this issue with "정상진". I used "Chŏng Sang-chin", but should it have been "Chŏng Sang-jin"?

Some additional reasonings (provided to me by the 172 IP user above), although note that these are not people names:

 * In the 1939 proposal for MR, "연산군" is romanized/hyphenated as "Yŏnsan-gun" and not "Yŏnsan-kun".
 * Similar is done in the 1961 version: "덕수궁" -> "Tŏksu-gung", not "Tŏksu-kung".
 * Note that the 1939 proposal does not use hyphens in peoples' names at all, so we need to indirectly reason.

Also my reasoning: just because a hyphen is written, does not mean that consonants would be voiced differently in speech. We should reflect how people would speak the name.

Please let me know if thoughts or if I'm getting anything wrong. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 12:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Note: Personally I don't care much about this. I usually don't care about article titles or any case where a spelling is supposed to follow a common form in English.
 * I merely told them what I noticed. 172.56.232.178 (talk) 02:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've seen both variations. For example, for 김알지, the progenitor of the Kims of Silla, most texts M-R romanizations romanize it as Kim Al-chi, but there were some that romanized it as Kim Al-ji. On the other hand, most texts romanize the powerful Goryeo government minister 이자겸 as Yi Cha-gyŏm, however, a few texts also romanize it as Yi Cha-kyŏm instead. The reason for the discrepancies may be due to the difference between the official M-R and the South Korean version of M-R. I've personally just used the variants that were more common in English language sources, so Kim Al-chi over Kim Al-ji and Yi Cha-gyŏm over Yi Cha-kyŏm. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 08:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good points. I'll note we already display an implicit preference for non-NK/SK MR, per MOS:KO: Use McCune–Reischauer (not the DPRK's official variant) for topics about North Korea and pre-1945 Korean names.
 * I'd argue based on these factors that unless there's a clear WP:COMMONNAME, we should by default use the default MR, and per my OP's bullet points I'd argue the default MR would prefer 이자겸 as "Yi Cha-gyŏm". 211.43.120.242 (talk) 11:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

By the way, a more serious problem than this would be reflecting consonant assimilation before and after a hyphen. The original MR explicitly states that this should not be done. "A simple example, the word Silla, will help to clarify the point. In Chinese, hsin 新 plus lo 羅 are pronounced Hsin-lo but in Korea, sin 新 plus na (la) 羅 are pronounced Silla. To hyphenate this name as Sil-la would imply that it is composed of two parts which individually are sil and la, which is obviously misleading."
 * Example: 왕식렴 Wang Sing-nyŏm
 * (page 49)

As a side note, the surname 이 is actually I (not Yi) in MR. "Another very important example is 李, the surname of the kings of the last Korean dynasty and still a very common Korean surname. Actually it is pronounced in the standard dialect and should be Romanized I, but some may prefer to retain the older Romanization, Yi, because that is already the familiar form."
 * (page 53)

These are also found in the McCune–Reischauer article.

While I usually don't care about article titles (or any case where a spelling is supposed to follow a common form in English), I decided to post this because some people may find this helpful. 172.56.232.137 (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Now that I think about it, what's the reason for our defaulting to hyphens in names for both MR/RR anyway? To my understanding, neither system has them used by default in given names (MR even less so than RR), so why do we set it as so?
 * I just searched through the talk page archives of NCKO and couldn't find any compelling arguments for their use beyond "I think Koreans use them" or "they're helpful". In academic papers, hyphens aren't used for MR, and our using them leads to all kinds of hairiness, as seen in this thread.
 * Anyone have any thoughts on this? Significant issue; if we overturn this practice it will impact a huge portion of pages about Korean people on Wikipedia. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 01:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Documenting two more thoughts.
 * Leaning towards proposing this for pre-1945 historical figures: set default spelling to be MR without hyphens.
 * Reasoning: this is the practice in English academic lit on Korea. These pre-1945 figures are often confined to history books/papers, and thus it is likely safe to assume WP:COMMONNAME practice will be the academic one. Also, default naming formats make finding pages easier and also reduce the amount of debates that need to happen. Debates add admin overhead to our already stretched community.
 * For post-1945 figures, I'm not sure what to do. There's a further split here: 1. What do we do with North Korean names (NK version of MR? Just MR? Hyphenate? Spaces like Kim Jong Un?) and 2. South Korean names (significant variance in naming practices).
 * 211.43.120.242 (talk) 06:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * After some thoughts, I started to think that "add a hyphen to a given name by default" is not really necessary.
 * When there is an established English spelling, that is used as the article title (and also any case where a spelling is supposed to follow a common form in English). That spelling can be anything – that is, it does not even have to use a hyphen. For example, Yuna Kim (joined) and Yoon Suk Yeol (spaced).
 * When there is no established English spelling, there is not really a reason to default to a form with a hyphen. You will have to use the spelling in accordance with RR or MR, but that spelling (whether with or without a hyphen) may rarely (or even never) be attested in any English-language text.
 * For modern people, if Koreans are inconsistent (like what the first sentence of WP:NCKO currently says), then why should the guideline state what to use by default?
 * 172.56.232.178 (talk) 07:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Three thoughts and a proposal:
 * I think for family names in both MR and RR, we should recommend they be spelled according to WP:COMMONNAME. This will go against MR/RR, and thus not be strict applications.
 * For MR, I think 이 is the only notable exception that will come from this. The WP:COMMONNAME spelling in academic literature is "Yi" I'm pretty sure. Other common family names tend to follow MR, e.g. 박 ->"Pak" and 김 -> "Kim".
 * RR, I think we should set default family name spellings to those most commonly used by South Koreans, e.g. Park, Lee, and Kim. Some stats in table here. I think people will be bothered if we use "Bak", "I", and "Gim", when each of those spellings are used in <2% of cases.
 * I disagree with not having default spelling systems for post-1945 people. I think we should give a clearly weak recommended romanization for post-1945 people. E.g. "There's lots of variations for names, here's a suggestion for what you can use". Reasons:
 * As said before, ease of finding and fewer debates.
 * There are many notable people whose names have basically never been written in English-language reliable sources, and it's too hard to find how they would have spelled it. What do you do with those names? Wikipedia editors will inevitably make some kind of choice in these scenarios; we should give them at least an option that's relatively consistent.
 * What if an editor creates 250 articles with clearly bad or outlandish spellings that virtually nobody else will be able to find/interpret? (e.g. 철수 -> "Joolsoo"). This is a realistic scenario; I can envision this happening. If there's no standard, nobody will have any consistent basis to dispute the spellings.
 * Relying on MR/RR also has the benefit of relative reversibility. I'd strongly prefer we have relative reversibility rather than not. Impromptu romanizations like "Younghill Kang" are hard to reverse to Hangul (강영흘).
 * One thing I think we could/should investigate. Is hyphenating or not hyphenating more common for South Koreans? I think the National Institute of Korean Language possibly has statistics on this; they've surveyed passports before. We should also check what various style guides in newspapers etc recommend.
 * This could influence whether or not we recommend hyphenation by default.
 * To summarize, this is my tentative proposal. Unless WP:COMMONNAME or preferred spelling is known,
 * For pre-1945 people, default to MR (with diacritics), except for spelling 이 as "Yi". No hyphen in names.
 * For post-1945 people, spell surnames according to WP:COMMONNAME practices. For given names, weak recommendation for strict MR for NK (with diacritics) and strict RR for SK. No hyphens in names.
 * 211.43.120.242 (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: #3 I wrote above is only about between syllables of a given name. I did not mean that Wikipedia editors should use any random spelling when there is no established English spelling (I thought this was clear since I wrote "You will have to use the spelling in accordance with RR or MR" in #2).
 * I agree with your tentative proposal. 172.56.232.253 (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh I misinterpreted. I thought you were saying that 1 and 2 were about pre-1945 and 3 was about post-1945. 211.36.142.187 (talk) 10:34, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * My response to your 3 points now that my head is clearer:
 * For 2, I'd argue it's possible that hyphenation is common practice, but I need to research this. We already let common name practices affect the surname independently of the given name, the given name may be affected independently too by some practice.
 * For 3, I'd argue our goal is to specifically avoid dictating what Koreans should do. Per common name, we should aim to represent current common practice. If there's like a 70% common practice then we should follow that until if/when it changes. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 13:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Since the issue is brought up, I decided to bring up another related issue.
 * This is currently found in articles about people who go by their mononyms:
 * Hong Gil-dong, known mononymously as Gildong, ...
 * Using different hyphenations for the exact same name is inconsistent and confusing. If the mononym does not contain a hyphen, then the same should apply when writing the full name. This is consistent and not confusing:
 * Hong Gildong, known mononymously as Gildong, ...
 * I think this should be done. 172.56.232.253 (talk) 09:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is this a frequent issue? I haven't seen it around much. May be able to just handle locally if not, without setting a guideline. It'll also possibly go away naturally if we recommend no hyphens by default.
 * I'll note though, I'm still not certain about no hyphenation for RR. I'm going to do some research on common name practices for hyphenation. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 11:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


text:
Brémoy

Brémoy is a commune in the Calvados department in the Normandy region in northwestern France.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Brémoy


text:
LeapFrog Enterprises

LeapFrog Enterprises, Inc. (commonly known as LeapFrog) is an educational entertainment and electronics company based in Emeryville, California. LeapFrog designs, develops, and markets technology-based learning products and related content for the education of children from infancy through grade school. The company was founded by Michael Wood and Robert Lally in 1994. John Barbour is the chief executive officer of LeapFrog.

1990–1997: Founding
The history of LeapFrog traces back to the late 1980s when LeapFrog founder Michael Wood, an attorney at Cooley LLP, had difficulties teaching his son how to read. He began researching phonics and marketing while continuing as a partner at Cooley. By 1994, Wood had developed the first prototype of what would become Phonics Desk, LeapFrog's first product. The prototype utilized a Texas Instruments chip that was previously used by one of Wood's clients to develop talking greeting cards. Wood solicited feedback on his prototype from the late Robert Calfee, an expert on children's reading development and a professor of education at the Stanford Graduate School of Education.

Wood began manufacturing the Phonics Desk in 1995. That year, Wood resigned as a partner at Cooley LLP and founded LeapFrog Enterprises with Robert Lally. The company received $800,000 in seed funding from friends, family, and former clients of Wood. Toys "R" Us became the first major retailer to carry the Phonics Desk shortly before Christmas 1995. Other retailers such as FAO Schwarz, Walmart and Target later began carrying the toy.

1998–2002: Expansion and acquisition by Knowledge Universe
LeapFrog had distribution in over 10 countries and a number of major clients in the US by early 1997. In March of that year, the company hired Brad Crawford, who formerly worked for Little Tikes, to oversee sales and manufacturing. Knowledge Universe acquired a majority stake in LeapFrog in October 1997. Knowledge Universe is an education company founded by brothers Lowell Milken and Michael Milken, Larry Ellison, and Tom Kalinske. LeapFrog subsequently merged with Knowledge Universe's Knowledge Kids division. Kalinske, a former executive at Mattel, became LeapFrog chief executive officer as a result of the merger.

LeapFrog acquired Explore Technologies in August 1998. Explore Technologies produced the Odyssey Globe, an interactive globe that could call out the names of countries when users touched the globe with a specially designed stylus. Explore Technologies' stylus technology was later used in LeapFrog's LeapPad, a learning tablet that sounds out words when users drag a stylus across a word in LeapPad books. The LeapPad launched in 1999 and became Leapfrog's flagship product. It was the top-selling toy in the US for 2001 and 2002, and books and accessories for the device were the best-selling toy in the US in 2003. LeapFrog opened its LeapFrog Schoolhouse division, which markets LeapFrog products directly to schools, in 1999.

2003–present: Going public and acquisition by VTech
LeapFrog co-founder Michael Wood became the company's chief executive officer in early 2002. In July, LeapFrog went public on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol LF. Knowledge Universe retained majority control of the company following the initial public offering. Sega Toys and Benesse also began producing LeapFrog toys localized for the Japanese market in 2002. The Leapster was released in October 2003. LeapFrog products were sold in more than 25 countries by that year. Tom Kalinske was appointed LeapFrog chief executive officer following Michael Wood's retirement in February 2004. Kalinske had previously served as LeapFrog's chief executive officer from the company's acquisition by Knowledge Universe in 1997 until early 2002. Wood was retained as the company's chief creative officer. Jeffrey G. Katz replaced Kalinske as LeapFrog chief executive officer in 2006. Katz was previously the founding chairman and chief executive officer of Orbitz and had served on the LeapFrog board for a year prior to becoming the chief executive officer of LeapFrog. Kalinske remained vice chairman of LeapFrog.

LeapFrog discontinued the LeapPad and released its Tag Reading System in June 2008. Tag became LeapFrog's flagship product and was a successor to the 10-year-old LeapPad. The company released its Leapster2 portable learning system and its Didj educational handheld game console in August 2008.

William "Bill" Chiasson replaced Jeffrey Katz as LeapFrog president and chief executive officer in March 2010. Chiasson had most recently served as LeapFrog chief financial officer. Katz was appointed to the newly created position of executive chairman of the board. LeapFrog also released the Leapster Explorer educational handheld game console in 2010. The Leapster Explorer was the successor to the Leapster2 and was targeted toward older children. The console supports online gameplay as well as learning apps, e-books, and videos. John Barbour was named the chief executive officer of LeapFrog in March 2011. Barbour previously served as an executive for Toys "R" Us and RealNetworks.

LeapFrog released the LeapPad Explorer educational tablet computer in 2011. The LeapPad Explorer was designed for children aged four to nine and contained a five-inch touchscreen, camera, microphone, and both downloadable apps and cartridge-based games. In 2012, LeapFrog released its updated LeapPad2 and LeapsterGS. The LeapPad Ultra tablet computer and LeapReader were launched in 2013. The LeapReader is an electronic reading and writing system that succeeded the Tag Reading System which only taught reading skills.

The company released LeapBand, its first wearable activity tracker for children, in 2014. LeapFrog also released its LeapPad3 and LeapPad Ultra XDi tablet devices in 2014. In July 2014, the company announced the release of LeapTV. They also got net loss for $124million and had net sales of $145million. In August 2015, the company announced LeapFrog Epic, its new Android-based tablet for children, which was released in September 2015.

On April 4, 2016, VTech completed its $72million acquisition of LeapFrog.

Products
LeapFrog's product portfolio focuses on three main families of products: reading solutions, educational gaming, and grade school products and learning toys. Notable products include:
 * LeapFrog Epic – An Android-based tablet for children aged 39. The tablet runs on the Android KitKat operating system, with a quad-core MediaTek MT8127 processor, 7" multi-touch capacitive screen, front and back camera, video recorder, 16GB of memory and a battery that lasts for six hours. The product was released in September 2015 and its MSRP is US$139.99. An updated variant of the Epic called Academy Edition was released in 2017, with a redesigned silicone protective bumper and access to the LeapFrog Academy program. Another updated variant called the LeapPad Academy was released in 2019; like the Epic Academy Edition before it, this came with access to the LeapFrog Academy program and a silicone bumper with a built-in kickstand.
 * LeapTV – A TV connected video game console that uses motion control. The console has a TV connected camera that tracks motion control of both the controller and the player's body. Like any other current video game console, it has games available in cartridge or download form. The console's release was announced in July 2014 and it was launched two months later in September. LeapTV is aimed at children aged 38.
 * LeapBand – A wearable activity tracker for children aged 47. LeapBand is a wristband that gives commands such as "wiggle like a worm" or "pop like popcorn." Children earn joules of energy gems by completing challenges, playing the built-in games, moving around in Move Mode, and using the stopwatch. Once they earn enough joules, they receive rewards, such as new toys and favorite foods for their pet, getting a new pet, and leveling up their pets.
 * LeapReader – A specially designed stylus that reads audio books aloud and teaches basic writing skills. The device is similar to LeapFrog's Tag Reading System, although the Tag system did not teach writing skills as does LeapReader. LeapReader was released in July 2013.
 * LeapStart – A newer family of products including the LeapStart was announced in 2016; the LeapStart 3D was released in 2018, and the LeapStart Go was released in 2019. These also include a stylus for reading content on specially patterned books but the LeapStart system is not compatible with the earlier Tag and LeapReader books.
 * LeapPad Explorer/LeapPad2/Ultra/LeapPad3/Ultra XDi – The second line of LeapPad products are personalized learning tablets designed for children aged 49. When children set up the LeapPad, they enter their grade level and LeapPad automatically adjusts its games and applications to suit the given grade level. The existing library of Leapster Explorer game cartridges and apps is cross-compatible with LeapPad. LeapPad Explorer was released in August 2011, the LeapPad2 was released in August 2012, and the LeapPad3 and LeapPad Ultra XDi were released in 2014.
 * Leapster/Leapster L-Max/Leapster2/Leapster Explorer/LeapsterGS Explorer – Portable learning systems for children aged 410 with a large library of cartridge games and downloadable learning apps, including e-books, videos, games, and flashcards. The original Leapster was released in 2003. The company subsequently released the Leapster2 in 2008 and Leapster Explorer in 2010. The LeapsterGS Explorer was released in 2012.
 * Tag Reading System – A specially designed stylus that has a small infrared camera at the tip that "reads" letters, words and symbols printed on the special dot-patterned pages of books in the Tag library. The system is designed to help children aged 48 learn to read. In 2009, the company released Tag Junior, a system designed for children aged 14.
 * My Pal Scout – A customizable plush toy that can be programmed with various songs and the owner's name and preferences. Additionally, LeapFrog produced various other toys, including toy vehicles, interactive plushes, and toys for the infant market. LeapFrog later released Read with Me Scout, a plush toy that can read aloud books from its product line.
 * The original LeapPad – A series of now-discontinued educational devices. The products in this family varied in design, but all accepted an insertion cartridge to be used with a book that was placed in the device. The cartridge was activated when a child used a specially designed stylus to touch pictures, words, and shapes in the book. The device would then sound out the touched word, name the shape, or relay information about the picture. The LeapPad was LeapFrog's flagship product from 1999 until it was discontinued in late 2007 (early to mid-2008 outside the US). It was replaced as LeapFrog's flagship product by the Tag reading system.
 * Tad's Subtraction Sheet – A discontinued subtraction sheet released in 2013. Used with dry-erase markers.

Smartphone applications
Leapfrog also develops educational applications for smartphones. These apps include:

 * 'Scout's ABC Garden' App – An iOS application that was released in April 2011. The app encourages children to explore letter names and sounds step-by-step, and each child's experience can be customized based on his or her name, favorite food, favorite color and favorite animal.
 * Creativity Camera – An iOS application that allows children to take and edit pictures. The application also contains an augmented reality game where users can take pictures of imaginary fairies. Creativity Camera comes with a child-friendly phone case that is shaped like a camera. The app and phone case were launched in 2013.
 * Mr. Pencil: Learn to Write – An iOS application that works with a stylus accessory to teach users basic writing skills. It requires iOS 5.0 or later. The app was released in 2013.

Licensing and partnerships
In addition to producing their own toys, LeapFrog also licenses their characters (the Leapfrog Learning Friends) to third parties:

 * Kiddieland Limited produces ride-on toys, tricycles, and scooters
 * Masterpieces Puzzles produces jigsaw puzzles
 * Learning Horizons produces books and various stationeries

LeapFrog also has partnerships with various companies:
 * Sega Toys and Benesse produce localized versions of the toys for the Japanese market.
 * Macromedia co-developed the Leapster handheld gaming console.
 * Lionsgate Home Entertainment has released Leapfrog Learning DVDs series of educational DVDs since 2009, beginning with Let's Go To School. Warner Home Video released LeapFrog Learning VHSs and DVDs from 2003 until 2005. PorchLight Entertainment produced all LeapFrog Learning DVDs prior to 2008.

LeapFrog Learning Friends

LeapFrog has developed various characters for use in-house, and eventually licensed the characters for use in third party products. These characters are collectively known as the Leapfrog Learning Friends. LeapFrog continues to develop new characters and has expanded character placement across products and content. Characters include Leap, Lily, Tad, Della, Dan, Dot, Casey, Parker, Tim, Mr. Frog, Mrs. Frog, Mr. Websley, Professor Quigley, and Edison. Most of the characters have been discontinued since 2008, but continued to appear on the LeapFrog Tag Learning System, the LeapFrog eBooks, the Leapster Explorer, the LeapPad Explorer, and re-released DVDs. Scout the Puppy first appeared in The Amazing Alphabet Amusement Park and Numbers Ahoy in 2009, and later characters from his series include Violet the Puppy, Penny the Hamster and Eli the Cat, along with their sentient car Axle.

Animated videos
In 2003, LeapFrog began releasing animated content based on the LeapFrog characters onto home video. Over the course of more than a decade, various interpretations of the LeapFrog franchise have been used, and sixteen videos total have been produced. Similar to other preschool content from PBS Kids, Nick Jr., and Playhouse Disney, LeapFrog is an early educational program designed for children in the age group of 2–7 years. The videos and DVDs were originally distributed by Warner Home Video, then PorchLight Home Entertainment, and currently Lionsgate Home Entertainment. The original wave of videos starred the Frog family; consisting of siblings Tad, Leap, and Lily, and their parents, Mr. and Mrs. Frog. Other major characters include Professor Quigley, an eccentric professor who usually helps the Frog children learn educational concepts, and Mr. Websley, the boss of Quigley and Mr. Frog who runs the factories. This wave of videos teach basic early learning skills that would become recurring features in future videos, including the alphabet, reading, spelling, numbers, and addition, and subtraction. The second wave phased out most of the "Learning Friends" characters, only leaving Tad, Leap, and Lily as the main characters. However, these videos would see the addition of two new major characters: Edison (a firefly previously seen in A Tad of Christmas Cheer) and Scout (a green dog introduced in 2007 as the company's mascot). Scout would be spun-off into his own series in 2011, which introduced a new cast of characters that included Violet, Penny, Eli, and Axle. The final wave of videos revived the Letter Factory, a location from the company's earliest videos, and were animated using CGI.

Original series (2003–2007)

 * Letter Factory (December 9, 2003/May 12, 2009)
 * Talking Words Factory (December 9, 2003)
 * Math Circus (November 16, 2004)
 * Talking Words Factory 2: Code Word Caper (November 16, 2004)
 * Learn to Read at the Storybook Factory (September 20, 2005)
 * A Tad of Christmas Cheer (October 30, 2007)

Second series (2008–2011)

 * Sing and Learn with Us! (2008)
 * Let's Go to School (August 18, 2009)
 * Math Adventure to the Moon (February 23, 2010)
 * The Amazing Alphabet Amusement Park (January 18, 2011)
 * Numbers Ahoy! (January 18, 2011)

Scout and Friends (2011–2013)

 * Scout & Friends: Phonics Farm (November 8, 2011)
 * Scout & Friends: Numberland (January 31, 2012)
 * Scout & Friends: Adventures in Shapeville Park (2013)
 * Scout & Friends: The Magnificent Museum of Opposite Words (2013)

Letter Factory Adventures (2014–2015)

 * Letter Factory Adventures: The Letter Machine Rescue Team (March 4, 2014)
 * Letter Factory Adventures: Counting on Lemonade (September 9, 2014)
 * Letter Factory Adventures: Amazing Word Explorers (2015)
 * Letter Factory Adventures: The Great Shape Mystery (September 8, 2015)

title: LeapFrog Enterprises


text:
La Courneuve–8 mai 1945 station

{{Infobox station }} La Courneuve–8 mai 1945 is a station of the Paris Métro and serves as the northern terminus of Paris Métro Line 7.
 * name = La Courneuve–8 mai 1945
 * symbol_location = paris
 * symbol = m
 * symbol2 =
 * type = Paris Métro station
 * image = Station Métro Courneuve 8 Mai 1945 Ligne 7 - La Courneuve (FR93) - 2022-06-18 - 1.jpg
 * alt =
 * caption = 2 MF 77 at La Courneuve–8 mai 1945
 * other_name =
 * address = La Courneuve, Seine-Saint-Denis
 * borough = Île-de-France
 * country = France
 * coordinates = {{coord|48.920777|2.410668|region:FR_scale:2000|format=dms|display=inline,title}}
 * owned = RATP
 * operator = RATP
 * line = {{R-I|paris|m}} {{R-I|paris|m|7}}
 * platforms = 2 (2 island platforms)
 * tracks = 3
 * disabled =
 * code = 0307
 * zone = 2
 * opened = {{start date and age|1987|05|06|df=y}}}
 * closed =
 * passengers = 3,611,264 (2020)
 * services =
 * map_type = France Paris and inner ring

History
La Courneuve–8 mai 1945 was inaugurated on 6 May 1987 following an extension from Fort d'Aubervilliers and was renovated in 2005. The term "8 mai 1945" in its name refers to VE Day, or the end of World War II in Europe on 8 May 1945.

In 2019, the station was used by 5,886,507 passengers making it the 63rd busiest of the Métro network out of 302 stations.

In 2020, the station was used by 3,611,264 passengers amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, making it the 39th busiest of the Métro network out of 305 stations.

Access
The station has 4 entrances:
 * Access 1: Stade Daniel Féry
 * Access 2: avenue Jean Jaurès
 * Access 3: avenue Paul Vaillant Couturier
 * Access 4: avenue Lénine

Platforms
The station has a particular arrangement specific to the stations serving or had served as a terminus. It has three tracks and two island platforms with its walls decorated with tiling depicting scenes of sunrises and sunsets at the seaside.

Other connections
Since 6 July 1992, the station has been served by tramway T1, and before the extension to Gare de Saint-Denis on 15 December 1992, was its western terminus. From 2016 to the summer of 2017, the tram station was renovated along with the lengthening of the platforms and modernisation of its associated shelters to cater for the anticipated increase in traffic when further extensions to the line opens in Rueil-Malmaison and Fontenay-sous-Bois in the future.

It is also served by with bus lines 152 and 173 of the RATP bus network, by lines 607, 609, and 611 of the TRA bus network, and at night, by line N42 of the Noctilien bus network.

Tourism
Although it is not very tourist-oriented, the neighbourhood "Quatre routes" is very commercialized, featuring a large market which is open on Tuesdays, Fridays and Sunday mornings. To reach the nearby Parc départemental de La Courneuve, the largest green space in the département (approximately 4 km2), take the T1 to the station "Six routes". During the Fête de l'Humanité at the beginning of September, a shuttle takes people directly there from the terminus of the métro.

It is also possible to take the T1 towards Drancy in order to visit the deportation camp of the Cité de la Muette.

Bus 152 arrives at the station from the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace (The Museum of Air and Space) at Le Bourget Airport, where a biennial aviation show is held.

title: La Courneuve–8 mai 1945 station


text:
MediaWiki talk:Talkpage

I think you were right to revert yourself, Eloquence :). Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 15:37, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How about "Talk" ? Optim 15:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * or "Discuss" ? Optim 15:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

title: MediaWiki talk:Talkpage


text:
Fort d'Aubervilliers station

Fort d'Aubervilliers is a station of the Paris Métro. It is named after the old Fort d'Aubervilliers, one of the 16 forts built between 1841 and 1845 as the first belt of defence at a cannonball's distance outside Paris' 19th century wall.

History
The station opened on 4 October 1979 following an extension from Porte de la Villette.

The station served as the temporary terminus of the line until the opening of the second stage of the extension, to La Courneuve - 8 May 1945, which opened in 1987.

In 2019, the station was used by 3,889,085 passengers, making it the 123rd busiest of the Métro network out of 302 stations.

In 2020, the station was used by 2,328,764 passengers amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, making it the 98th busiest of the Métro network out of 305 stations.

As of 2021, preparatory work on line 15's station is scheduled to start later in the year till 2023 with construction scheduled to start in late 2024, with a planned opening in 2030 as part of line 15 east.

Access
The station has 4 entrances on Avenue de la Division Leclerc and Avenue Jean Jaurès.

Platforms
Fort d'Aubervilliers has a standard configuration with 2 tracks surrounded by 2 side platforms. The name of the station is written in Parisine font on enamelled plates. The platforms are devoid of seats and advertisements.

Other connections
The station is also served by lines 152, 173, 234, 248, 250, and 330 of the RATP bus network and by line 609 of the TRA bus network on Sundays and public holidays. At night, the station is served by the line N42 of the Noctilien bus network.

title: Fort d'Aubervilliers station


text:
Porte de la Villette station

Porte de la Villette is a station of the Paris Métro. The origin of the commune of the Villette was a Gallo-Roman village, which grew up on the Roman road that led to eastern Flanders. About 1198, it became Ville Neuve Saint-Ladre and by 1426 it was called Villette-Saint-Miser-lez-Paris. The commune became a part of Paris in 1860. The nearby gate in Paris' 19th century walls hence became known as the Porte de la Villette.

The nearby Cité des Sciences et de l'Industrie, located in the Parc de la Villette, is the biggest science museum in Europe. The glass and steel building was designed by Peter Rice and it was opened in 1986.

The station is featured in Battlefield 3, in which it is featured in a multiplayer map.

History
Porte de la Villette opened on 5 November 1910 with the commissioning of the first section of line 7 from Opéra with service provided by all trains on the line until 18 January 1911, when a branch opened from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais, resulting in 1 of every 2 trains serving this branch. It was once again served by all trains on the line when the branch from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais was split to form an independent line, line 7bis, on 3 December 1967 as a result of an imbalance in traffic between the two branches – the branch to Porte de la Villette having significantly higher traffic due to its role as an important terminus for many suburban buses. It served as the northern terminus of line 7 until 1979 when it was extended to Fort d'Aubervilliers. As part of the "Un métro + beau" programme by the RATP, the station was renovated and modernised on 16 January 2002.

In 2019, the station was used by 3,209,252 passengers, making it the 110th busiest of the Métro network, out of 302 stations.

In 2020, the station was used by 1,981,878 passengers amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, making it the 123rd busiest of the Métro network, out of 305 stations.

An interchange with Paris tramway Line 3b opened on 15 December 2012, serving as its western terminus until its extension to Porte d'Asnières—Marguerite Long on 24 November 2018.

Access
The station has 5 entrances:
 * Access 1: avenue Corentin Cariou
 * Access 2: boulevard Macdonald - Cité des Sciences et de l'Industrie
 * Access 3: rue du Chemin-de-Fer - Centre d'Événements
 * Access 4: avenue de la Porte-de-la-Villette
 * Access 5: Parvis de la Cité - Cité des Sciences et de l'Industrie - Centre de Loisirs et de Commerce

Platforms
The station has, as does Porte de Pantin located on the same line, a particular arrangement specific to the stations serving or had served as a terminus. It has 2 identical half-stations each with an island platform surrounded by two tracks, the same layout as Château de Vincennes on line 1 and Porte de Champerret on line 3. As it was a former terminus, a turning loop is provided beyond the station towards La Courneuve–8 mai 1945. It is also where the sole connection to the La Villette workshops is in the métro, where equipment used to maintain the network (sleepers, switches, rails, etc.) are stored.

Other connections
The station is also served by lines 71, 139, 150, and 152 of the RATP bus network, and at night, by lines N42 and N140 of the Noctilien bus network.

title: Porte de la Villette station


text:
Corentin Cariou station

Corentin Cariou is a station of the Paris Métro.

History
Corentin Cariou opened on 5 November 1910 with the commissioning of the first section of line 7 between Opéra and Porte de la Villette with service provided by all trains on the line until 18 January 1911, when a branch opened from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais, resulting in 1 of every 2 trains serving this branch. It was once again served by all trains on the line when the branch from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais was split to form an independent line, line 7bis, on 3 December 1967.

It was originally named Pont de Flandre, after the nearby bridge spanning the Canal de Saint-Denis on which the rue de Flandre ran on, the main road in La Villette. On 10 February 1946, the station was renamed after Corentin Cariou (1898–1942) who was a member of the municipal council of the 19th arrondissement and was shot by the Nazis during the occupation as a hostage. It is one of 8 stations which were renamed after resistance fighters who had died for France, the others being Charles Michels (line 10), Colonel Fabien (line 2), Corentin Celton (line 12), Guy Môquet (line 13), Jacques Bonsergent (line 5), Marx Dormoy (line 12), and Trinité - d'Estienne d'Orves (line 12).

In 1982, the station was decorated with an artwork by the French artist Hervé Mathieu-Bachelot, De la verticale à l'oblique, consisting of a fresco that line the sides of the corridors.

As part of the "Un métro + beau" programme by the RATP, the station was renovated and modernised on 23 November 2001.

In 2019, the station was used by 2,766,678 passengers, making it the 191st busiest of the Métro network out of 302 stations.

In 2020, the station was used by 1,329,810 passengers amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, making it the 196th busiest of the Métro network out of 305 stations.

Access
The station has 2 entrances:
 * Entrance 1: rue Benjamin-Constant
 * Entrance 2: Avenue Corentin-Cariou - Cité des sciences et de l'industrie

Platforms
Corentin Cariou has a standard configuration with two tracks surrounded by two side platforms, although the lower part of the walls are vertical instead of a typical elliptical shape. The decoration is in the style used for the majority of metro stations. The bevelled white ceramic tiles cover the walls, vault and tunnel exits, and lighting canopy is provided by two tube bands. The advertising frames are metallic and the name of the station is inscribed in Parisine font on enamelled plates. The seats are white 'Motte' style.

Other connections
The station is also served by lines 60 and 71 of the RATP bus network and at night, by N42 of the Noctilien bus network.

title: Corentin Cariou station


text:
Crimée station

Crimée is a station of the Paris Métro and is located in the 19th arrondissement of Paris under avenue de Flandre. The station is named after the nearby rue de Crimée, the longest road in the arrondissement, whose name commemorates the Crimean War (1855–56), on the Crimean Peninsula of the Russian Empire on the Black Sea, where a coalition of Turkey, the United Kingdom, France, and Piedmont faced Russia. It was notable for the Siege of Sevastopol (1854–1855) and the Charge of the Light Brigade. The conflict ended in the Treaty of Paris (1856), with the Russian Empire's defeat.

History
The station opened on 5 November 1910 with the commissioning of the first section of line 7 between Opéra and Porte de la Villette with service provided by all trains on the line until 18 January 1911, when a branch opened from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais, resulting in 1 of every 2 trains serving this branch. It was once again served by all trains on the line when the branch from Louis Blanc to Pré-Saint-Gervais was split to form an independent line, line 7bis, on 3 December 1967. As part of the "Un métro + beau" programme by the RATP, the station was renovated and modernised on 25 July 2003.

On 27 May 1978, the Guimard entrance on Rue Mathis was listed as a historical monument.

On 1 April 2016, half of the nameplates on the station's platforms were temporarily replaced by the RATP as part of April Fool's Day, along with 12 other stations. It was humorously renamed "Châtiment" (punishment), a reference to Crime and Punishment, a novel by Fyodor Dostoevsky.

In 2019, the station was used by 5,431,969 passengers, making it the 74th busiest of the Métro network, out of 302 stations.

In 2020, the station was used by 2,688,758 passengers amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, making it the 65th busiest of the Métro network, out of 305 stations.

Access
The station has 3 entrances:

 * Entrance 1: Avenue de Flandre Centre Commercial
 * Entrance 2: Caisse Nationale d'Assurance Vieillesse
 * Entrance 3: Rue Mathis (with a Guimard entrance)

Platforms
Crimée has a standard configuration with two tracks surrounded by two side platforms and the vault is elliptical. The decoration is in yellow Ouï-dire style. The lighting canopies, of the same colour, are supported by curved supports in the shape of a scythe. The direct lighting is white while the indirect lighting, projected on the vault, is multicolored. The white ceramic tiles are flat and cover the walls, vault and tunnel exits. The advertising frames are yellow and cylindrical and the name of the station is inscribed in Parisine font on enamelled plates. The platforms are equipped with silver sit-stand benches as well as hull seats, typical of the Motte style, whose hue, changed from yellow to blue, breaking the colorimetric uniformity of the decoration.

Other connections
The station is also served by lines 54, 60, and 71 of the RATP bus network, and at night, by line N42 of the Noctilien bus network.

Nearby

 * Canal de l'Ourcq
 * Cours Florent
 * La Villette Basin
 * Théâtre Paris-Villette

title: Crimée station