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Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct disputes archive/Llywrch

The origin of the conflict may be traced to my defense of David Rohl on the Talk:Sea Peoples page my good faith attempts to use more neutral language and diverse POVs for a completely NPOV articles in the tricky areas of world history. I try Wiki policy and Wikiquette but he depicts me as a problem user to other users. Any period offline to cool-down is taken advantage of as a chance to undo my efforts. He bad-mouths me on user talk pages, censors my contributions and re-writes rather than attempting to edit and ignores my responses. I am accused of being a monomaniac in my attempts to shove my "home-brewed theories down the throats of wikipaedians" and all evidence I provide in response is ignored. Apparently to hide evidence of an attempt to disparage me into leaving he encouraged the deletion of page the contents of which are now at Hebrews thanks to my friend User:Budo. I would appreciate objective feedback from neutral readers as to whether the info there and at Heber needs re-writing.Zestauferov 10:02, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I was wondering when this dispute would end up here.

 * My dispute with Zestauferov arises from the following:
 * He adds material that appears to be of his own invention,
 * appears *to you* to be of my own invention.Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * & when I -- & others -- ask him to supply his sources, he does not respond,
 * when have I ever not responded?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * or offers only the most vague description (e.g., "obviously you cannot read French, Russian or Georgian"). :(See Talk:Eberite/Delete for an example.)
 * as User Levzur has illustrated what is common knowledge in one language may be unheard of in another. I was trying gently to point out this fact and was I lying?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * He expounds a questionable interpretation of NPOV, which evidentally means to him that any opinion from anywhere ought to be included on Wikipedia -- even if it is expressed as fact, & not theory.
 * since realising that something taken as fact in one country is only a theory in another I have corrected this. I have never ignored just-criticism as the Habiru article is testimony to. yet if a theory is accepted as common fact in english then heaven forbid someone suggest it is just a theory. Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * When Wetman explained that NPOV more properly meant that "Encyclopedia entries are merely reports, not flights of personal fantasy or ground-breaking revolutionary essays that turn stuffy ol' conventions on their heads etc", Zestauferov responded "In other words Wikipaedia should be nothing new just regurgitative" -- which apparently is the source of his comment "Regurgitation of Mainstream Oversimplifications" that begins the rant on his User: page.
 * Both cases are meant be questions what is the opinion I really want to know which direction wiki is supposed to be going in because I was under the impression when I joined that the second option in my opinion poll on what wiki is supposed to be was the correct one. The irate responce to Wetman on my page (appologies for not including the question mark it was meant to be rhetorical) comes in February after trying to be cordial with you both since November. Please look at my postings on User talk:Wetman. If you like I will change the questions to be more obvious and less rhetorical.Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * After the article Heberite/Eberite went thru the VfD process, he began to restore his dubious material in contributions to other articles without explanation.
 * can you give examples please?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * When the same thing happened to the Habiru article, & I saw that the content was being improved, I fought to save that article.
 * and anyone can see how much L was on my side at this point by reading through the debate at Talk: Habiru/Delete

 * The only articles I have rewritten & removed his contributions to have been:
 * Sea Peoples -- after it appeared he left Wikipedia
 * In other words take advantage of the cool off. Incidentally I won the debate on that page without any edit war so what made you think you were right enough to blot-out the reason for my debate?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * David Rohl -- after Zestauferov's objections, I asked Andrewa -- who has contributed much material concerning Rohl & Egyptian Chronology -- for his opinion about the degree of bias Zestauferov claimed, & when it appeared we might head for an edit war over this, I added a NPOV warning to the article.

 * I don't know what to say here. This comment is just plain dishonest & misleading. please look as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andrewa#David_Rohl and note Mr L's own asmission of bias. The NPOV dispute was added not immediately following Andrewa's comments but following my edits in response to his request to highlight his biases. Since my support of Rohl is the origin of L's protests against me. Lets deal with this one and then I will mobe onto the other misleading points L raises. I recomend watching L's contributions in case he now tries to clean-up evidence of Bad-mouthing me on (especiallly but not only) User talk pages (e.g. User talk:Wetman, User talk:Read794).Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * And to remove content from two disambiguation pages, Hebrew & Hebrews.

 * without any explaination. Would you mind telling why now?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * As I am a Mediator & a Sysop, I have tried hard not to avoid personal attacks;

 * the latter is certaily true but I am not sure how that is supposed to relate to the former. If this is a privilage of sys-ops then I appologise because I did not know. Maybe wiki policy is at fault.Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * all of my expressed judgements have been directed to the quality of his material. The only reason I have not brought this before the Mediation Committee is because I feel mediation requires both parties to give, & I frankly don't see what I can concede in the way of behavior or actions in this conflict.

 * In other words (objectively now) you were afraid of being exposed as unjustifiably biased against me? which stemmed from my defense of Rohl in which I basically said exactly the same as Andrewa. Why is it that only anything I type bothers you but not if it comes out of another IP. Time and again I have responded to criticisms and been backed up by other users only for you to move-on without comment (accusing me of not responding!?!) only to raise your head on yet another of my posts with the same-old "home-brewed" etc. accusations. Why have you decided not to trust my contributions having given you evidence been backed up by others and responded to criticisms which is all easily verifiable despite your conviction that I have not?Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * If anyone thinks they can help here, I'm willing to listen, but I'm not optimistic. -- llywrch 20:05, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * It is precicely your disparaging view of me which is hindering you. Please look through my contributions in the page histories again. They are all there. I really am not that bad if you will only give me a chance.Zestauferov 00:20, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Zestauferov has responded to my arguments point by point (& sometimes sub-point by sub-point) in a running fashion; to reply in the same will only make things confused. (My lack of a response does not mean consent to his argument; it only means I couldn't find it in order to respond.) I will respond to them in general, separated from his arguments for readability.

I see this way of responding as a kind of cop-out since it requires the readers to believe the summary you give them rather than seeing what was literally said and how you might be mis-interpreting but anyway to avoid further conflict I will do it your way.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * He denies ever failing to respond to my requests for sources. -- I made several queries concerning the material in the Heberites article, none of which you responded to. I asked in Talk:David Rohl for you to explain where the article is biassed, & all I have received is a number of changes made to remove "weaslings" & an opaque allusion to our earlier disagreement at Talk:Sea Peoples. Apparently he is trying to say that because I was opinioned about another issue, I am hopelessly opinioned now & will always be. He needs to provide specific examples from the David Rohl article if he wants me to respond constructively.

 * All vague and general Heberite queries were responed to as best as I could understand what the bone of contention was. The best specific explanations relevant to that deleted article are now available for perusal at Talk:Eber. The most disagreeable specifics have been corrected in the David Rohl article. please compare the version I edited with the previous version to see those details. I think my points were very clearly illustrated.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * He claims that he has never disputed the commonly accepted meaning of NPOV. -- From my reading of the following passage -- taken from your User: page -- you are trying to rewrite your own argument. There you complain of people "who are afraid of obscure fact and suppress anything unless it is plagiarised info form an already published encyclopaedic work that wikipaedia might become a worthless encyclopaedia regurgitating in less authentic style whatever one might better find in a Britannica." That does not read to me as if he wants to debate the philosophy behind Wikipedia; it reads as if he wants somewhere to present his own views -- for which he should create a web site.

 * I am not debating the wiki philosophy but I am questioning those people who do this and claim to be upholding wiki philosophy. As far as I can see they are not acting in true wiki spirit.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * He asks for examples of where he has reintroduced his questioned material. -- The Hebrew & Hebrews disambiguation links are one place. Articles on Eber & Heber are another -- as are a number of articles about personages mentioned in Genesis which include Shem, Aram, and Arpachshad. All have clearly irrelevant paragraphs about Hetto-Iberian peoples.

 * You are mistaken I have not changed the Hebrew page from a disambiguation. But I am proud of what I have done to the Hebrews page. If you have specific criticisms about that page please detail them as you finally did this week on the Eber page following my repeated requests fore such. Asd you can see I will answer the criticisms as best as I can, but please do not vitimise me. Why is Hetto-Iberian laguage theory irrelevant to the peoples who are connected to that theory?Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * He accuses me of being "afraid of being exposed as unjustifiably biased against me?" -- Believe it or not, I am always concerned about being unfair towards another contributor; I try hard to be fair. This is why I am defending Levzur for his edits concerning theoretical links between Caucasian languages & a number of other isolated langauges like Hurrian; if only he would respond to my questions, he & I might come to a consensus. However, as I explained above Zestauferov has refused for a long time to document his sources; & when Levzur began to contribute similar material he could provide sources for, this material showed that Zestauferov took a number of liberties with his material, in order to present his unique racial arguments that linked together the natives of the Caucacus, the Jews (which he calls for reasons clear only to him Heberites''), & a number of other people (including the Hattians & the enigmatic Habiru).

 * Why should we all come to a consensus with you when you know nothing about Hetto-Iberian theory? The great thing about Wiki is that a second user can come along and back up the comments of a first with references I have veruy little time to do so, but when I do have time and am not distracted responding to conflicts, I do look up the sources of my knowledge to put in the articles. Granted Levzur has gone overboard with the 'All Hetto-Iberians are originally native Georgians' stance. Please would you be specific about what liberties you are accusing me of taking? On a more grave note are you accusing me of being a self-hating Jew because I am trying to be perfectly objective in allowing for the possibility that the Hebrew/Eberite (I conceed that the French term Heberite seems to be obsolete even in French these days.) nation had origins outside of Canaan and may even have representatives still in the Caucasus despite the language differences? And I don't like you bringing up the term race. Are you inferring that Jews are a distinct race? We are a non-exclusive ethnic group. I think you should be very careful what you write.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Now for some specific points:
 * In reponse to my claim that he left Wikipedia for a short while, he apparently states he left Wikipedia to "cool off." -- Typically, when someone takes a break from Wikipedia, one says so on the User: page. The last post I saw from Zestauferov before he vanished for a couple of weeks stated he was going to quit WP, & perhaps limit his support to it by contributing money. My initial reaction was concern that I had offended him, so I pondered over a couple of days what I should say in response to his declaration, only to find he had vanished. What was I to think? I made my changes, assuming he had left for good.

 * Well that page is dfeleted now I think so it is your word against mine but the way I remember it you are not recounting the details accurately. Also as a new user I did not know that the convention was to post such a message on my user page.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Me:"And to remove content from two disambiguation pages, Hebrew & Hebrews." -- Him: "without any explaination. Would you mind telling why now?" -- Content does not belong on disambiguation pages. They are disambiguation pages -- or were until your edits.

 * I did not do what you say I did to Hebrews and anyone can confirm that by checking out the history page. For weeks now no one has found my improvements to the lame disambiguation page which repeated info from Hebrew page upsetting except you. If anyone reading this does have objective comments about that page please postthem on that talk page and I will oblige.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * "Time and again I have responded to criticisms and been backed up by other users only for you to move-on without comment (accusing me of not responding!?!) only to raise your head on yet another of my posts with the same-old "home-brewed" etc. accusations." -- I must have truly wounded your pride with that phrase, "home-brewed", as I have only used it once! And I haven't ignored you to move on to another post; when I have done this, I am entirely exasperated at your mulishness & have decided it's better to ignore you to focus on other matters I have interested in. But most of the time, it's because you have gone silent.

 * Please give the locations of where you have responded to my answers since our debate at sea peoples. I think the main point is not that I criticize you but that you ignorew the answers which I have given you. Again please show (prior to my listing you here) where you have responded and not moved on as you put it. You have been backed up, Backed up in victimising me mostly only by Wetman and people who have been swayed by your unrelenting attacks on me like RickK and like Josh Cherry other users who I have never even had a brush with are now writing as if they know me well only because of your attacks. Please see VfD Hetto-Iberians for an example. There are users who back up my stances too as well you know. I don't know how many times you used the phrase "Home Brewed" but it was a good nutshell to quote all of your criticisms of me in.

I admit I don't have a great deal of patience; that is what working with Zestauferov requires. A careful study of the Talk pages & history of his User page will show he has changed his story at least once -- if he would provide the sources he uses for his contributions when asked, this would solve much of our conflict. But I notice he not only has been in conflict with 2 other contributors, but he has been in conflicts over articles about Prussia -- a topic I have consciously avoided for other reasons. The issue here is about conflicts; can anyone work in a meaningful way with Zestauferov to create useful content? -- llywrch 04:02, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Well please look at the pages I have contributed to/faught over and judge fore yourselves whether the majority of them are in a very nice state now or not. The Prussia article is one where I am particularly proud that my concerns were not ignored and it is looking rather splendid now.Zestauferov 15:33, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 13

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 * 1541 – After three years of exile, French theologian John Calvin returned to Geneva to reform the church under a system of Christian theology later known as Calvinism.
 * 1759 – French and Indian War: British forces won the Battle of the Plains of Abraham near Quebec City, despite General James Wolfe being mortally wounded.
 * 1814 – War of 1812: Fort McHenry in Baltimore's Inner Harbor was attacked by British forces during the Battle of Baltimore, inspiring Francis Scott Key to write "Defence of Fort McHenry", later used as the lyrics to the United States national anthem.
 * 1914 – World War I: The French army repulsed a German assault against their positions on high ground near the city of Nancy.
 * 1959 – The Soviet spacecraft Luna 2 (model pictured) struck the Moon, becoming the first spacecraft to reach another celestial body.
 * 1964 – South Vietnamese generals Lâm Văn Phát and Dương Văn Đức staged a coup attempt after being demoted by junta leader Nguyễn Khánh.
 * 1985 – Super Mario Bros., one of the most influential and best-selling video games in history, was first released in Japan for the Nintendo Entertainment System.
 * 1988 – Hurricane Gilbert reached a minimum pressure of 888 mb (26.22 inHg) with sustained flight-level winds of 185 mph (295 km/h), making it the most intense Atlantic hurricane on record at the time.
 * 1993 – Nirvana released their third and final studio album, In Utero, which went on to sell more than 15 million copies.
 * 2008 – Five bomb blasts took place in Delhi, India, killing at least 20 people as part of a series of attacks perpetrated by the Indian Mujahideen.
 * Born/died this day: | Michel de Montaigne |d|1592| Hezqeyas |d|1813| Lucy Goode Brooks |b|1818| Clara Schumann |b|1819| William Birdwood |b|1865| Petros Voulgaris |b|1883| Emmanuel Chabrier |d|1894| Marguerite LeHand |b|1896| Pat Collins |b|1896| Claude-Hélène Perrot |b|1928|Lili Elbe |d|1931| Fiona Apple |b|1977|Luiz Gushiken |d|2013| Helen Filarski |d|2014

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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 14

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 * 1723 – António Manoel de Vilhena, Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller, laid the first stone of Fort Manoel in Malta.
 * 1752 – Under the terms of the Calendar (New Style) Act 1750, the British Empire adopted the Gregorian calendar, skipping 11 days of the month.
 * 1901 – Theodore Roosevelt became President of the United States at age 42, the youngest person ever to do so, eight days after William McKinley was fatally wounded in Buffalo, New York.
 * 1940 – Hungarian forces massacred at least 150 ethnic Romanians in Ip, Transylvania, following rumors that Romanians were responsible for the deaths of two soldiers.
 * 1943 – World War II: Nazi forces began a mass extermination campaign against the civilian residents of around 20 villages on the Greek island of Crete, eventually killing more than 500 men.
 * 1960 – At a conference held in Baghdad, the governments of Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela founded OPEC to help coordinate their petroleum policies and influence global oil prices.
 * 1979 – Afghan president Nur Muhammad Taraki (pictured) was overthrown and later killed on the orders of Hafizullah Amin, who succeeded him.
 * 1992 – The Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared the breakaway Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia to be unconstitutional.
 * 2003 – President Kumba Ialá of Guinea-Bissau was deposed in a bloodless military coup.
 * 2007 – Late-2000s financial crisis: The Northern Rock bank received a liquidity support facility from the Bank of England, sparking a bank run—the United Kingdom's first in 150 years.
 * 2015 – Physicists of the LIGO and Virgo projects first observed gravitational waves, the existence of which was predicted by Henri Poincaré in 1905.
 * 2019 – Drone attacks on major processing facilities at Abqaiq and Khurais forced Saudi Arabia to cut more than half of its oil production.
 * Born/died this day: | Constantine V |d|775| Jeremiah Dummer |b|1645|Franz Bopp |b|1791|  John Gould |b|1804|  Ponnambalam Arunachalam |b|1853| Pierre Savorgnan de Brazza |d|1905| Rubby Sherr |b|1913| Paul Poberezny |b|1921| Kate Millett |b|1934| Jacob Gens |d|1943| Eduardo Castro Luque |d|2012| Faith Leech |d|2013


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 15

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 * 1776 – American Revolutionary War: British forces made an unopposed amphibious landing at Kips Bay on Manhattan, the American defenders having fled due to artillery fire.
 * 1791 – French playwright Olympe de Gouges published the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Female Citizen, hoping to expose the failures of the French Revolution in the recognition of gender equality.
 * 1816 – HMS Whiting (1812) ran aground on the Doom Bar on the coast of Cornwall, England.
 * 1821 – The Province of Guatemala proclaimed the independence of Central America from the Spanish Empire.
 * 1862 – American Civil War: Confederate forces captured the Union garrison at Harpers Ferry, Virginia, taking more than 12,000 prisoners.
 * 1916 – Tanks (example pictured), the "secret weapons" of the British Army during the First World War, were first used in combat at the Battle of Flers–Courcelette in France.
 * 1935 – Nazi Germany enacted the Nuremberg Laws, which deprived Jews of their citizenship.
 * 1944 – World War II: The Greek People's Liberation Army won the Battle of Meligalas and began the execution of many prisoners of war and civilians.
 * 1944 – World War II: American and Australian forces landed on the Japanese-occupied island of Morotai.
 * 1963 – The Ku Klux Klan bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church, an African-American church in Birmingham, Alabama, killing four girls and injuring at least 14 other people (memorial march pictured).
 * 1972 – Three armed members of the Croatian National Resistance hijacked Scandinavian Airlines System Flight 130 in an attempt to force the release of those arrested for the assassination of the Yugoslav ambassador the previous year.
 * 2008 – Financial crisis of 2007–2008: The global financial services firm Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy while holding over $600 billion in assets, the largest such filing in U.S. history.
 * 2017 – A homemade bomb partially exploded on an eastbound District line train at Parsons Green tube station in West London, injuring 30 passengers.
 * Born/died: | Catherine of Genoa |d|1510| Catherine of Austria, Queen of Poland |b|1533| Edmé Boursault |d|1701| Jean Sylvain Bailly |b|1736| Isambard Kingdom Brunel |d|1859| Anna Winlock |b|1857| Charles-Amédée Kohler |d|1874|Phil Lamason |b|1918| Signe Toly Anderson |b|1941

September 15: Battle of Britain Day in the United Kingdom (1940)

 * 1462 – The Ottoman conquest of Lesbos ended upon the surrender of commander Niccolò Gattilusio; the conquering Mehmed II executed 300 Italian soldiers by chopping them in half, claiming he was fulfilling a promise to "spare their heads".
 * 1830 – The Liverpool and Manchester Railway (L&M), the first locomotive-hauled railway to connect two major cities, opened with the Duke of Wellington in attendance.
 * 1954 – The scene in The Seven Year Itch of Marilyn Monroe standing in a white dress over a subway grate (pictured) was filmed by Billy Wilder.
 * 2013 – The Belarusian serial killer Ivan Kulesh murdered two saleswomen in Lida.


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 16

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 * 1776 – American Revolutionary War: American colonists defeated British troops at the Battle of Harlem Heights (depicted) on the island of Manhattan.
 * 1822 – French physicist Augustin-Jean Fresnel, in a "note" read to the Academy of Sciences, reported a direct refraction experiment verifying David Brewster's hypothesis that photoelasticity (as we now call it) is stress-induced birefringence.
 * 1920 – A bomb in a horse-drawn wagon exploded in front of 23 Wall Street in New York City, killing 38 people and injuring several hundred others.
 * 1940 – Second World War: Italian forces captured the town of Sidi Barrani, but their invasion of Egypt progressed no further.
 * 1961 – Typhoon Nancy, which possibly had the strongest winds ever measured in a tropical cyclone, made landfall in Muroto, Japan.
 * 1961 – The U.S. National Hurricane Research Project sought to weaken Hurricane Esther by seeding it with silver iodide, leading to the establishment of Project Stormfury.
 * 1975 – The prototype of the Mikoyan MiG-31 (example pictured), one of the fastest combat jets in the world, made its maiden flight.
 * 1979 – Eight people escaped from East Germany to West Germany in a home-made hot air balloon.
 * 1982 – A Lebanese militia under the direct command of Elie Hobeika carried out a massacre in the Palestinian refugee camp of Sabra and Shatila, killing at least 460 civilians.
 * 1992 – The British pound was forced out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism on Black Wednesday, and suffered a major devaluation.
 * 2007 – Seventeen Iraqi civilians were shot and killed by Academi guards in Baghdad.
 * 2013 – A lone gunman fatally shot twelve people and injured three others at the headquarters of the Naval Sea Systems Command in Washington, D.C.
 * Born/died: | Philip III of Navarre |d|1343| Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit |d|1736| Mikhail Kutuzov |b|1745| Louis XVIII |d|1824| Miriam Benjamin |b|1861| Nadia Boulanger |b|1887| Lauren Bacall |b|1924| Karen Muir |b|1952| Ahn Eak-tai |d|1965 Louis Réard |d|1984| Katie Melua |b|1984| Millicent Fenwick |d|1992

September 16

 * 681 – At the Third Council of Constantinople, Pope Honorius I was posthumously excommunicated, with his support for monothelitism deemed to be heretical.
 * 1844 – Felix Mendelssohn completed the score of the Violin Concerto, his final concerto.
 * 1963 – Malaysia was formed as an independent nation from the Federation of Malaya, the Colony of Singapore, the Crown Colony of North Borneo, and the Crown Colony of Sarawak.
 * 1979 – Eight people escaped from East Germany to West Germany in a home-made hot air balloon.
 * 1990 – Construction of the Northern Xinjiang railway (terminus pictured) was completed between Ürümqi South and Alashankou, linking the railway lines of China and Kazakhstan and adding a sizeable portion to the Eurasian Land Bridge.


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 17

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 * 1630 – Puritan settlers from England founded the city of Boston in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, naming it after Boston, Lincolnshire, the origin of several prominent colonists.
 * 1658 – Portuguese Restoration War: Having crossed the Minho and entered Portuguese territory, a Spanish army was victorious in the Battle of Vilanova.
 * 1775 – American Revolutionary War: The Continental Army under Richard Montgomery began the Siege of Fort St. Jean in the British province of Quebec.
 * 1793 – War of the Pyrenees: Forces from the French Army of the Eastern Pyrenees defeated two divisions of the Army of Catalonia, ending the furthest Spanish encroachment in their invasion of Roussillon.
 * 1849 – Harriet Tubman (pictured) escaped from slavery in the U.S. state of Maryland, and later orchestrated the rescues of other slaves via the Underground Railroad.
 * 1862 – American Civil War: Almost 23,000 total casualties were suffered at the Battle of Antietam near Sharpsburg, Maryland, where Confederate and Union troops fought to a tactical stalemate.
 * 1878 – A British surveyor was detained by the Zulu on the border with the Colony of Natal; a demand for reparations for the incident formed part of an ultimatum that led to the Anglo-Zulu War.
 * 1939 – Second World War: The Royal Navy lost its first warship in the war when German submarine U-29 torpedoed and sank HMS Courageous (50).
 * 1939 – World War II: The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, sixteen days after Nazi Germany's attack on the country from the west.
 * 1962 – NASA announced the Next Nine astronauts (pictured) selected for the purpose of landing on the moon.
 * 1958 – Tintin in Tibet, the twentieth volume of The Adventures of Tintin by the Belgian cartoonist Hergé and which he regarded as his favourite in the series, began serialisation.
 * 1970 – The Jordanian army entered Amman as part of operations to oust Palestinian fedayeen from the country in events later known as Black September (smoke over city pictured).
 * 1980 – Solidarity, a Polish trade union, was founded as the first independent labor union in an Eastern Bloc country.
 * 2011 – Adbusters, a Canadian anti-consumerist publication, organized a protest against corporate influence on democracy at Zuccotti Park in New York City that became known as Occupy Wall Street.
 * 2018 – The Israeli Air Force conducted missile strikes that hit multiple targets in western Syria, including one that accidentally downed a Russian plane.
 * Born/died: | Robert Bellarmine |d|1621| Stephen Hales |b|1677| Elizabeth Canning |b|1734| Jonathan Alder |b|1773| Earl Van Dorn |b|1820| Frederick Corbett |b|1853| Vera Yevstafievna Popova |b|1867| Henri Julien |d|1908| David Craig, Baron Craig of Radley |b|1929| Thomas P. Stafford |b|1930| Narendra Modi |b|1950| Mandawuy Yunupingu |b|1956| Red Skelton |d|1997| Eiji Toyoda |d|2013


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 18

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 * 324 – Constantine the Great decisively defeated Licinius in the Battle of Chrysopolis, establishing Constantine's sole control over the Roman Empire and ending the Tetrarchy.
 * 1048 – Byzantine–Seljuk wars: Byzantine forces defeated their Seljuk opponents in the flanks of the nocturnal Battle of Kapetron, but learned of their Georgian allies' defeat in the centre the next morning.
 * 1850 – The United States Congress passed the Fugitive Slave Act, decreeing that all escaped slaves be brought back to their masters.
 * 1851 – The New York Times, the largest metropolitan newspaper in the United States, was founded.
 * 1870 – Nathaniel P. Langford of the Washburn–Langford–Doane Expedition first observed a geyser in the Wyoming Territory erupting at regular intervals, naming it Old Faithful (video featured).
 * 1873 – Panic of 1873: The American bank Jay Cooke & Company declared bankruptcy, setting off a chain reaction of bank failures.
 * 1879 – The Blackpool Illuminations (example pictured) in the English seaside town of Blackpool were switched on for the first time.
 * 1895 – Daniel David Palmer performed the first chiropractic adjustment, on deaf janitor Harvey Lillard.
 * 1918 – World War I: The Central Powers' defeat at the Battle of Dobro Pole played a role in the Bulgarian withdrawal from the war and led to the subsequent liberation of Vardar Macedonia.
 * 1948 – The Australian cricket team's Invincibles tour of England concluded; they had played 34 matches, including five Tests, without defeat.
 * 2001 – Five letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to various media outlets in the United States.
 * Born/died this day: | Andronikos Komnenos |b|1091| Henry Stafford, 1st Baron Stafford |b|1501| Zhang Xianzhong |b|1606| André Dacier |d|1722| William Hazlitt |d|1830| Kate Booth |b|1858| Helene Scheu-Riesz |b|1880| Toni Wolff |b|1888|  Edwin McMillan |b|1907| Blue Panther |b|1960| Lewis Holtby |b|1990| Sol Campbell |b|1974| Christian Pulisic |b|1998| Jamey Rodemeyer |d|2011 |Haim Hefer |d|2012


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Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 19

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 * 1356 – Hundred Years' War: English forces led by Edward the Black Prince decisively won the Battle of Poitiers and captured John II of France.
 * 1777 – American Revolutionary War: British troops engaged American forces at the first Battle of Saratoga in New York.
 * 1863 – American Civil War: The Battle of Chickamauga began in northwestern Georgia and would end in the most significant Union defeat in the Western Theater.
 * 1893 – New Zealand became the first country to introduce universal suffrage following the women's suffrage movement led by Kate Sheppard.
 * 1944 – World War II: Finland, the Soviet Union, and the United Kingdom signed the Moscow Armistice to end the Continuation War.
 * 1950 – Korean War: A North Korean attack was repelled by Allied forces at the Battle of Nam River.
 * 1970 – Greek student Kostas Georgakis set himself on fire in Genoa, Italy, as a protest against the military junta of Georgios Papadopoulos.
 * 1985 – An earthquake registering Mw 8.0 struck Mexico City, killing at least 9,000 people and leaving up to 100,000 homeless.
 * 1991 – Ötzi, a well-preserved natural mummy of a man dating from about 3300 BC, was discovered by two German tourists in the Alps.
 * 2011 – Mariano Rivera surpassed Trevor Hoffman to become Major League Baseball's all-time career leader in saves.
 * 2023 – Chinese authorities cancelled a run of performances of The Mongol Khan, the first Mongolian play to be performed internationally, forty minutes before its planned premiere in Hohhot.

 * Born/died: | Theodore of Tarsus |d|690| Leo VI the Wise |b|866| Alfonso Litta |b|1608| William Robertson |b|1721|William Kirby |b|1759| Mabel Vernon |b|1883| Alexander Tilloch Galt |d|1893| Masaoka Shiki |d|1902| Guy Gibson |d|1944| Kate Adie |b|1945| Ashot Nadanian |b|1972 Danny Valencia |b|1984| Silvana Imam |b|1986| Damayanti Joshi |d|2004 |Jackie Collins |d|2015

September 19: Ganesh Chaturthi (Hinduism, 2023); International Talk Like a Pirate Day

 * 1692 – Salem witch trials: Giles Corey was crushed to death for refusing to enter a plea to charges of witchcraft, reportedly asking officials for "more weight".
 * 1846 – Near La Salette-Fallavaux in southeastern France, shepherd children Mélanie Calvat and Maximin Giraud reported a Marian apparition, now known as Our Lady of La Salette (statue pictured).
 * 1940 – World War II: Polish resistance leader Witold Pilecki allowed himself to be captured by German forces and sent to Auschwitz to gather intelligence.
 * 1970 – The first Glastonbury Festival was held at Michael Eavis's farm in Glastonbury, England.
 * 1995 – Industrial Society and Its Future, the manifesto of American domestic terrorist Ted Kaczynski, was published in The Washington Post almost three months after it was submitted.


text:
Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 20

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 * 1066 – Harald III of Norway and his English ally Tostig Godwinson defeated the northern earls Edwin and Morcar at the Battle of Fulford near York.
 * 1260 – The second of two major uprisings by the Old Prussians, a Baltic tribe, began against the Teutonic Knights.
 * 1643 – First English Civil War: The First Battle of Newbury was fought in Berkshire; Parliamentarian forces were allowed to pass Royalist troops to retreat the next morning.
 * 1697 – The first of a series of treaties comprising the Peace of Ryswick was signed between France and the Grand Alliance, ending the Nine Years' War.
 * 1870 – The Bersaglieri entered Rome through the Porta Pia, ending the temporal power of the Pope and completing the unification of Italy.
 * 1920 – Irish War of Independence: British auxiliary police officers known as Black and Tans went on a rampage in Balbriggan, burning more than fifty homes and businesses and killing two people.
 * 1943 – World War II: Australian troops led by Gordon Grimsley King defeated Imperial Japanese forces at the Battle of Kaiapit in New Guinea.
 * 1944 – Second World War: Allied forces captured San Marino from the German Army.
 * 1967 – Sweden, Norway, and Denmark submit the Greek case alleging human rights violations by the Greek junta.
 * 1971 – Hurricane Irene (satellite image pictured) moved into the Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic, making it the first actively tracked tropical cyclone to do so.
 * 1973 – Billie Jean King defeated Bobby Riggs in straight sets at the Astrodome in Houston, Texas, in an internationally televised tennis match dubbed the "Battle of the Sexes".
 * 1977 – A series of celestial phenomena of disputed nature was observed in the western Soviet Union, Finland and Denmark.
 * 1984 – The Cosby Show, which became one of three U.S. television shows to have the highest ratings five years in a row, premiered with its pilot episode.
 * 1988 – British prime minister Margaret Thatcher gave a landmark speech at the Belfry of Bruges, Belgium, against federalism in the European Economic Community.
 * 2000 – The Real Irish Republican Army carried out a rocket-launcher attack on the MI6 headquarters in London, with no casualties and minimal damage recorded.
 * 2008 – An explosive-laden truck detonated in front of the Marriott hotel in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing 54 people and injuring 266 others.
 * 2011 – The United States military ended its "don't ask, don't tell" policy, consequently allowing gay and lesbian people to serve openly.
 * Born/died this day: | Gozbald |d|855| Maurice Benyovszky |b|1746| Herbert Putnam |b|1861|John Patteson |d|1871| Jacob Grimm |d|1863| George Robey |d|1869| Enrico Mizzi |b|1885| Éva Gauthier |b|1885| Dennis Viollet |b|1933| Rose Francine Rogombé |b|1942| Masashi Hamauzu |b|1971|  Erich Hartmann |d|1993


text:
Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 21

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 * 1675 – Led by Antonio de Vea, a Spanish naval expedition departed El Callao, Peru, for the fjords and channels of Patagonia to find whether rival colonial powers were in the region.
 * 1745 – Jacobite risings: Jacobite troops led by Charles Edward Stuart (pictured) defeated Hanoverian forces in Prestonpans, Scotland.
 * 1776 – American Revolutionary War: The Great Fire of New York (depicted) broke out during the British occupation of New York City, destroying up to 1,000 buildings.
 * 1897 – In response to a letter written by eight-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon, The New York Sun published an editorial by Francis Pharcellus Church stating, "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus".
 * 1934 – Chandrashekhar Agashe established the Brihan Maharashtra Sugar Syndicate Ltd., one of the oldest companies in India.
 * 1938 – The Great New England Hurricane made landfall on Long Island, New York, killing an estimated 682 people and injuring 1,754 others.
 * 1943 – Second World War: The German Army began the Massacre of the Acqui Division on the Greek island of Cephalonia, executing 5,155 Italian soldiers in the next five days.
 * 1965 – Portugal accepted a diplomatic mission from Southern Rhodesia despite objections by Britain, which had required the colony to implement black majority rule as a condition of independence.
 * 1933 – Salvador Lutteroth ran the first Empresa Mexicana de la Lucha Libre event, now the world's oldest professional wrestling promotion in existence, in Mexico City.
 * 1934 – The Muroto typhoon, the strongest in Japanese history at the time, made landfall on the mainland, killing more than 3,000 and leaving around 200,000 homeless.
 * 1937 – J. R. R. Tolkien's fantasy children's novel The Hobbit, which later served as a prelude to The Lord of the Rings, was first published.
 * 1968 – The Soviet Union's Zond 5 landed in the Indian Ocean, becoming the first spacecraft to safely return to Earth after travelling around the Moon.
 * 1996 – The Defense of Marriage Act was passed by the United States Congress, prohibiting federal recognition of same-sex marriage, while allowing states to adopt any marital definition of their choosing.
 * 1999 – A 7.7 Mw earthquake struck Jiji, Taiwan, killing 2,415 people, injuring more than 11,000 others and causing about 300 billion (US$10 billion) in damage across the island.
 * 2013 – Unidentified gunmen began a three-day attack on the upmarket Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya, resulting in the deaths of 67 people with at least another 175 wounded.
 * Born/died: | Andrew II of Hungary |d|1235| Leonello d'Este, Marquis of Ferrara |b|1407| Barbara Longhi |b|1552| Polyxena of Hesse-Rotenburg |b|1706| Emanuel Schikaneder |d|1812| Charles Nicolle |b|1866| H. G. Wells |b|1866|Helen Foster Snow |b|1907| Leonard Cohen |b|1934| Kay Ryan |b|1945| Jacqueline Susann |d|1974| Kareena Kapoor |b|1980| Florence Griffith Joyner |d|1998

September 21: International Day of Peace

 * 1170 – Norman invasion of Ireland: English and Irish forces conquered Dublin, forcing Ascall mac Ragnaill, the last Norse–Gaelic king of Dublin, into exile.
 * 1823 – According to Joseph Smith, he was first visited by the Angel Moroni, who would guide him to the golden plates that became the basis of the Book of Mormon.
 * 1918 – World War I: The Battle of Nazareth ended with the British Empire victorious over the Ottomans.
 * 1958 – The first section of Interstate 80 in Iowa (pictured) opened in the Des Moines metropolitan area.
 * 2001 – Several British Muslim youths in Peterborough, England, murdered 17-year-old Ross Parker, leading to debate over whether the British media failed to cover racially-motivated crimes with white victims.


text:
Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/September 22

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 * 1586 – Eighty Years' War: Spanish forces defeated an Anglo-Dutch army at the Battle of Zutphen.
 * 1869 – Das Rheingold, the first of four operas in Der Ring des Nibelungen by the German composer Richard Wagner (pictured), was first performed in Munich.
 * 1914 – First World War: The German submarine U-9 sank three Royal Navy cruisers, resulting in approximately 1,450 deaths.
 * 1914 – World War I: German naval forces bombarded Papeete in French Polynesia.
 * 1922 – After nine days, the great fire of Smyrna was extinguished, having caused at least ten thousand deaths.
 * 1934 – One of Britain's worst mining accidents took place when an explosion at Gresford Colliery in Wales killed 266 men.
 * 1939 – A joint military parade by the troops of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union took place in Brest-Litovsk to celebrate their partition of Poland.
 * 1948 – Led by Gail Halvorsen, the United States Air Force began Operation "Little Vittles", delivering candy to children as part of the Berlin Airlift.
 * 1975 – Sara Jane Moore attempted to assassinate U.S. president Gerald Ford, but failed due to unfamiliarity with her weapon.
 * 1979 – An American Vela satellite detected an unidentified flash of light near the Prince Edward Islands in the Indian Ocean, thought to be a nuclear weapons test.
 * 1993 – A tugboat towing a barge collided with a rail bridge in Mobile, Alabama, U.S., deforming the tracks and causing the derailment of a passenger train eight minutes later, which killed 47 people and injured an additional 103.
 * 1994 – The Nordhordland Bridge, crossing Salhusfjorden between Klauvaneset and Flatøy in Vestland, and Norway's second-longest bridge, officially opened.
 * 2014 – The NASA spacecraft MAVEN entered into orbit around Mars to study the planet's atmosphere.
 * Born/died: | Selim I |d|1520| John Biddle |d|1662| Bernardino António Gomes Jr. |b|1806| Stephen D. Lee |b|1833| Wilhelm Keitel |b|1882| Norma McCorvey |b|1947| Ségolène Royal |b|1953|Gladys Berejiklian |b|1970| Aurelio López |d|1992| Edna Molewa |d|2018


text:
Talk:Fram (ship)

PBS
There was just a great show on the Fram. It is quite important for the culture of Norway. It detailed tons of interesting facts; apparantly the hull is 80cm thick made of three layers of boards and 120 cm thick at the very front. The ship was very strongly and well built but obviously as the commment below suggests was not simply brute force but also an ingenius design. The show detailed Nansen's amazing struggle to try to achieve the north pole.

Timeplan/Goal of the artice: It would be nice if this arcticle was featured as a "did you know..."; main goal is for me to have it "done" (wikipedia articles are never done) until Roald Amundsen goes up on the fron page, March 7. — Sverdrup (talk) 11:21, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think the Fram was not so strong, in fact it was built with lighter stucture than previous polar ships but it's shape makes that the resulting force of ice pressure pushed the boat upwards. Ericd 13:00, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If there's anyone in Norway near the Fram museum...
I think an establishing shot of the overall ship outside of water would be a great help to this article, since that was its main departure from regular ship making 24.136.136.42 (talk) 22:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

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WP:FRAM
Benjamin (talk) 10:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said here, we don't need a hatnote to that page in mainspace. If anything, it belongs in Fram (disambiguation). – MJL  ‐Talk‐☖ 15:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Why not? For example, Sysop. Benjamin (talk) 17:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That's a major policy on Wikipedia. WP:FRAM is not even close to being as important in the long term. [Not to mention that the controversy is mentioned in our coverage here] – MJL  ‐Talk‐☖ 17:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, then we can link there. What's the problem? Benjamin (talk) 21:45, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no problem if we're linking there (and not here). – MJL  ‐Talk‐☖ 05:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I meant TO there. Benjamin (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fram (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:03, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fram (ship)