text:
Talk:Turtles all the way down

Most Common Usage
The article doesn't state this term or phrase's most common usage, as an argument against The Big Bang Theory. A proponent of this theory states or believes all matter in the universe was once compacted into a single object no larger (if you can believe it) than a thimble. However the proponent cannot explain where this thimble of matter comes from. Often, instead, the proponent will give an additional theory stating or proposing that eventually all matter with compact into a thimble again and that it already has multiple times, there have been many universes prior to ours, each caused by "big bangs". However they cannot say when the first universe began or where the matter came from before all these universes. To which an opponent than replies: "Yes, it's turtles all the way down." 173.209.103.239 (talk) 18:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Research
I know google searches almost always point to the Hawking version. I guess this just prooves that books are still important sources for research! Slrubenstein

Theosophy?
I've heard a version in which the "old lady" was a Theosophist, which would offer some connection between the attested Indian version of the tale, and the later British and American ones. Sadly, I have no source to cite, which is why I'm posting this here rather than editing the article. --FOo 02:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty sure that Aleister Crowley mentioned the "turtles all the way down" anecdote; I'm not sure whether he was speaking of a Theosophist or not, but there's a good chance of that. It might have been from Magick Without Tears. Afalbrig (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Tortoises vs Turtles
I have never read A Brief History of Time, and so cannot comment on whether the switch in the ancedote from tortoises to turtles occurs as is stated here. Could someone check this out? At the least, "tortoises all the way down" should redirect here; at the most, this page might have to be moved. --Martey 01:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a word to word transcription of my edition at least, so yes it does strangely switch from tortoises to turtles.--Gwynplaine 03:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Made a redirect page. --Martey 08:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There's also a less common "elephants all the way down" version of the tale. Should there be a redirect page, and maybe also a mention of that in the article? --Guest 20:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It was elephants when I first heard the tale, back around 1974. A turtle standing on an elephant seemed less of an affront to reason than the other way 'round. I'm not a big fan of Brief History of Time, so I'm not surprised Hawking got it backwards. LightSpeed (talk) 21:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Notability
I don't feel this is notable enough for a page on its own and I would sooner see it abridged and merged with urban myth or origin belief or just so story. As Slrubenstein pointed out, Tatwd derives its notability entirely from Stephen Hawking's book, and the book's notability in turn rides on Stephen Hawking's immense contribution to theoretical physics and his battle with disability. Hawking is non-notable as a philosopher, and, like many people, I wasn't that impressed with the book per se. So I think the notability of the tutles story is not fundamentally greater than any other urban myth or origin belief or just so story, and merging would be a better idea. Zargulon 14:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Are you afraid the Internet is running out of room? Holy smokes. Wikipedia was a lot more interesting back before people started running around whining about what is and isn't "notable".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.67.10.59 (talk) 16:26, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

 * I disagree. The story is perennially retold, and actually encapsulates an Eastern or holistic view of metaphysics — that of ontological irreducibility. --goethean ॐ 15:57, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * On this note: Do you feel, as I do, that the article in question deals with ontological irreducibility with a patronizing tone? Rmilligan 06:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Totwd it is not notable for illustrating ontological irreducibility. As for the story being perennially retold, independently of Stephen Hawking's book, I would like to see some evidence of this. Zargulon 17:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * A Google Search on the exact phrase "Turles all the way down" NOT wikipedia NOT hawking gives 115,000 hits. --goethean ॐ 18:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I just noticed this story in William James's book The Will To Believe, specifically in the essay "The Sentiment of Rationality" (p. 104 of The Will To Believe in the Dover reprint):
 * Like the old woman in the story who described the world as resting on a rock, and then explained that rock to be supported by another rock, and finally when pushed with questions said it was rocks all the way down, -- he who believes this to be a radically moral universe must hold the moral order to rest either on an absolute and ultimate should, or on a series of shoulds all the way down.
 * The James collection was published in 1898. So we can conclude a) that the chunk of the Wikipedia article which attributes the quote to James is wrong, and b) that it probably had nothing to do with Russell. He would have been 26 when the James collection came out, and James was already describing this as a possible apocrypha. Slaniel 02:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Accepted - thank you Zargulon 18:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Thomas King's book The Truth About Stories is published by University of Minnesota Press. King is a professor of English at the University of Guelph, the book is a compilation of the 2003 Massey Lectures series, part of CBC Radio's Radio Ideas series. It is a book of essays (in First Nations storytelling style) about the importance of stories and storytelling to First Nations' culture. EVERY chapter opens with the turtle story (with the elephant left out, of course), leaving readers with the implication that it is a First Nations' story. On the other hand, the view of stories advocated by the author explicitly devalues identification of stories with authors, so he has no obligation to affirm or deny (or even care about) the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.180.126 (talk) 14:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Major revisions
I just went through and tried to clean up this article a bit. It was previously suffering quite badly from the "stream of unorganized facts" syndrome that so heavily affects much of wikipedia. I wanted to make this discussion post in case anybody cares about the changes, since I made some pretty drastic revisions.

First off, I removed all but one example of the anecdote itself. Since they're all basically the same except for some minor specifics in wording, it's really not necessary to have three copies of the same thing up on the page. The only version with a major difference, in which an Englishman and Indian are involved instead of a scientist and old lady, I noted along with the reference to that occurrence, which I think is enough to give the reader the full idea.

I also changed the listing of the occurrences. The quote from STUMPERS-L was just wrong... following the link provided gave nothing close to what had been supposedly a direct copy and paste, so I made a note that the 1969 occurrence was unverified, and cleaned up that section in general.

I split everything up into sections that seem to make sense. Hopefully it's not too chunked... I think it's more readable this way, personally.

Finally, I split the Discworld and movie references off into a seperate chunk at the bottom, since they're related but not really talking about the anecdote itself.

This is my first addition to WP, so please be kind :-)

216.231.49.141 10:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)enroth

Dawkins
One does not need to rehash Dawkins arguments concerning intelligent design, which does not mention turtles at all, in order to simply explain why ID itself might be an example of turtles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.27.203 (talk) 05:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

dawkins is also, i think, a popularizer of determinism, isn't this a veild and science friendy version of intelligent design...? it at least leads to a form of infinite regress if not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.86.127 (talk) 16:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

split off infinite regression (?)
I think this is a specific example of an infinite regression but not all infinite regressions are humping turtles. But I'm not entirely sure what an infinite regression is. Anyone want to split it off? — Dunc|☺ 23:31, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong?
If one can accept that our universe is space all the way out, why not turtles all the way down? Cheers :p

I take it the turtles are invisble... much like space.

...why down? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.86.127 (talk) 16:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Native American story
The "turtles all the way down" idea also appears in Thomas King's The Truth About Stories (from the CBC Massey Lectures) as a Native narrative... I'm not sure how or where this would be best added, or I'd do so myself. (The exact phrase is on page 32, the myth shows up in a couple of other places, IIRC), 26 October 2006

See also -  49.176.97.4 (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Slight, subtle variations upon a North-American indigenous creation-story (or stories, plural) are used by Dr Thomas King as his opening in every The Truth About Stories Lecture, as part of his entertaining, but meaningful preamble. It does not just "show up in a couple of other places". Rather its/their inclusion, with each's ingenious variations, is quite evidently intentional upon Dr King's behalf.

Picture?
How's this for a picture? I made this. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 20:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * That's very clever. I like it and I think's appropriate. There are some drawings out there that might be public domain that might also be famous. (Narkstraws 20:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Endorse I like it. Nardman1 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

What's the relevance of having an image in this article? 193.136.152.161 (talk) 13:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the picture does not teach you something the article can't. However, I still support having some picture, because
 * 1) the article looked really barren without one;
 * 2) the concept is innately visual and a picture seemed truly necessary -- you can't hear the words without forming a picture.
 * I like the picture that is currently in use (the text "earth" on four large oversimplified turtles) because it captures the two paradoxes of the myth:
 * 1) how do you get turtles to go "all the way down?"
 * 2) is the "earth" in the myth supposed to be flat or round? Agradman (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Related concepts change.
CanadianCaesar: Um, I suppose we could end crime by legalizing it, but that would kind of miss the point. The "related concepts" section looks like a trivia section, smells like a trivia section, and quacks like a trivia section. Why not call it a trivia section?

Also, it'd be nice if you didn't just do a blanket revert. Do you really think the ones I removed are relevant enough? And the usage of "see" terminology in the header, which is bad style on the Internet with hyperlinks? SnowFire 04:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just incorporated your edit. I see no reason to invite more indiscriminate information by calling it Trivia.  Just keep it to one topic. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 04:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Fair enough, now. SnowFire 04:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated concepts
Does anyone know if Dr. Seuss' book Yertle the Turtle was somehow inspired or influenced by the expression "Turtles all the way down"?

Anon Answer: No, it doesn't. It's about how a ruler's excessive greed/vanity can lead to his overthrow. You could make a case for the anecdote in Dr. Seuss' book Did I Ever Tell You How Lucky You Are? about the Bee-Watcher-Watcher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.135.33.67 (talk) 02:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Infinite regression of turtles?
Not necessarily. Assuming a curved spacetime, there could be a finite number of turtles, with the bottom-most one standing on the Earth, or any other solid ground for that matter. Maybe a physicist would like to comment on this hypothesis?

--84.9.73.5 (talk) 11:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarification
As an Indian and a scientist, I have to make a few clarifications about this article.

1) The motif being spoken of is something that I have never heard of in Hinduism. Despite being a reliegion, Hinduism has strangely neo-scientific views on the universe's structure and creation, including its cyclic and infinite nature.

2) Even if this motif does exist in Hinduism somewhere, I personally feel that this article is not fair in its portrayal of 'the Indian'.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.184.42.6 (talk) 18:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I would like to know this myself. Where does this idea of giant space turtles originally come from? Drutt (talk) 12:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * More information at the World Turtle article. Danceswithzerglings (talk) 12:48, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the Indian isn't correctly portrayed. Your commentary about Hindu beliefs distracts from the point of the anectdote. If you wish to correct this misconception at least take the comment out of the quote! I'm moving it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.127.253.13 (talk) 14:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Derogatory misinterpretation
IIRC, most of this is in relation to Chukwa, who (as Pratchett pionted out) is swimming through the Ocean of Milk. It's only necessary to have something for the turtle to stand on if one already asserts the relatively modern idea of empty space as we know it. So, it's a misinterpretation, attempting to make the believer look foolish. A sensible (and far more likely) answer would be "The turtle is swimming", or "The ocean of milk, which is bottomless".

It is about as humorous as asking a Christian creationist - "So, what day was it before Monday" - and the reply being - "Oh, every day was a Monday before that". Quite funny, if you aren't a creationist. I haven't yet met a Hindu who takes the Chukwa myth as anything other than a mythic metaphor, even though I've met plenty of creationists who really believe that the Universe was created in seven days..

If we accept the Chukwa myth on it's metaphorical basis, then it's not dissimilar from all those marbles-on-mattresses pictures used to show the curvature of space-time under gravitational fields; if we were to update the metaphor, we could say that the child Chukwa is swimming around a whirlpool caused by the mighty Surya-Chukwa (the sun-turtle), while the baby Chandra-Chukwa (moon) is swimming around a similar 'whirlpool' created by our own Chukwa.

So, just because current science prefer marbles and mattresses, it doesn't make it particularly funny if someone else uses turtles and oceans. What makes it sad is when someone takes another myth and ridicules it in a short-sighted, and arrogant, manner. Moreover, the (rather tired) scientific misogyny comes out in naming the person in question as being a woman.

An big, fat white scientist goes to Kumbh Mela, and joins in a conversation with a group of Sadhus listening to a Yogi who is discussing Chukwa. After listening for a while, the scientist pipes up and tells them "Actually, you are all wrong - the earth is a marble on a mattress" - the Yogi gave a superior smile and asked "what is keeping the mattress dry?" - the response came rushing back "It's not wet - because God never got laid!" (20040302 (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC))
 * And how does this help the article? Darrenhusted (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Image wanted
— Chowbok  ☠  15:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * People didn't like the last image that was added... AnonMoos (talk) 20:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The Kurma turtle swims in the cosmic ocean called Garbhodaka. Pic from "Vedic Cosmos" DVD cover: http://akincanaforum.eponym.com/DVD-inlays-&-cd-2.jpg 82.208.2.200 (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Jan

 * The current picture has a caption which reads "turtles all the way down" underneath a picture of a lot of tortoises. Is that reason enough for it to be replaced with something else? Quoth 31 (talk) 14:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Yeah, the point is that it should be an infinite pile of turtles.— Chowbok  ☠  00:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Hittchikers guide mention nonexistant
just read through entirety of hitchikers guide series, my brain hurts now, but no mention of turtles all the way down. Man was mostly harmless messed up! -forgot ,y username i'll put it in later

 * Hey man, it's OK: It happens to ev'ryone; ya start out stoned, and end up wasted. Mebbe ya learn "Never mix, never worry"; I settled on "Jes' letcher head be straight", but what it comes down to is if yer brain doesn't stay at about the same pain level, you're doing it wrong. 72 years young; the hep in the ch. chip cookies was the worst of it, but in fact it's a gas. Keep on trucking, mebbe check out David Deutsch; He 'll put a hurt on yr brain pretty good! --Jerzy•t 10:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Comment about "In popular culture" section
At the beginning of the "In popular culture" section, someone posted a complaint that reads as follows:

"Lists of miscellaneous information should be avoided. Please relocate any relevant information into appropriate sections or articles. (October 2009)"

I think this complaint should be deleted. I think that the list of references in that "popular culture" section are entirely appropriate -- the references show exactly what the heading says the section is about. It should be left as is. Worldrimroamer (talk) 18:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think the the Wikipedia Trivia Sections guideline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Trivia_sections) applies here. The guidelines specifically states: "This guideline does not suggest always avoiding lists in favor of prose. Some information is better presented in list format. The information here is perfectly suited to list format (a list of popular culture references to the main topic). Rodrigotorres (talk) 23:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Anyone consider Dr. Seuss' Yertle the Turtle somehow related to this notion? -- sorry I'm not currently signed in —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.203.222.73 (talk) 19:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Something to add to this list- the band Every Time I Die has a song entitled "Turtles All the Way Down"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.82.30.137 (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

It comes from Bertrand Russell's autobiography
Russell tells the story in his autobiography, it should not be that hard to find a source. I don't have my copy here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.68.68.32 (talk) 02:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Interesting. See the quote from Russell's lecture included in the article. It involves nothing (or something unspecified) below the tortoise, but not "turtles all the way down". And it's a thought experiment, rather than a description of an incident. Does it appear as an incident in his autobiography? Shreevatsa (talk) 04:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes, it comes from Russell's biography, which I read many years ago.  As I recall he said he was on a train talking to an old woman.   I don't remember if he told her anything about  cosmology himself, or just listened to her explanation that the world was flat and sitting on the back of a giant turtle.  He asked what it stood on and she replied that it was another turtle.  He asked what that turtle was standing on, and smiled as if she saw him looking for a flaw but missed the obvoius; she said "it's turtles all the way down".    I have to say it was a rather boring book and I didn't finish it, and I don't know if I still have it or not, but this should be fairly easy for someone to look up and verify.  Eric Myers 14:50, 29 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Myers (talk • contribs)

Pratchett's domain name
Terry Pratchett operated a personal website under turtlesalltheway.com for many years. Now it redirects to a merchandise page for official Discworld stuff, including many items personally signed by Terry Pratchett. He is still listed as the active registrant for the domain. Is this something to add to the existing Pratchett section? I find it interesting and relevant, but I'm quite the convinced Pratchett-reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.239.104.5 (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC) I am deeply disappointed that Terry Pratchett is not mentioned in the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.51.129.149 (talk) 13:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I am also deeply disappointed that Terry Pratchett is not mentioned in the article. 185.66.206.79 (talk) 09:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Terry Pratchett is mentioned in the "See also" section. His world turtle swims through space and doesn't stand on top of another turtle, so it would be off-topic to mention it in this article, which is about the phrase "turtles all the way down", which Pratchet never uses as far as I know. He is mentioned in other articles, such as world turtle. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

'See Also' section needs cleaning
There are a few seemingly irrelevant links in the see also page. Should definitely be cleaned up. I don't think simply also referring to a turtle warrants inclusion, e.g. 'Kurma' and 'Post turtle'. Also, I don't personally see (or understand) the connection to Hilbert's Paradox, or Holon. All Clues Key (talk) 16:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

 * I've deleted these references. All Clues Key (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Teller
If I remember correctly (it has been decades since I heard it), Edward Teller mentioned this myth of the world being on a turtle on another turtle, ad infinitum on his vinyl record about the theory of special relativity and cosmology. That would have been in the 1950s or 1960s. JRSpriggs (talk) 06:01, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

 * There is a poem containing a similar idea:
 * Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs that bite them; and little fleas have smaller still; and so ad infinitum.
 * JRSpriggs (talk) 06:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The version I'm familiar with is attributed to Augustus De Morgan, a Victorian era mathematician:

 * "Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
 * And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
 * And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
 * While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on."

Captain Quirk (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Is page image appropriate?
for one, it doesn't even demonstrate the infinite regression of turtles going all the way down-- instead a stack of only 7 of them is sitting on the ground. secondly, the tone of the image just seems a bit silly for a Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.160.80.245 (talk) 19:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

 * If you can get a commons image of an infinite regression of turtles, I would be happy to replace the current image in this article. As for the tone, the article has 13 footnotes, and all of the relevant information is cross-referenced. Is there anything in particular that you would recommend be changed? TechBear  | Talk | Contributions 19:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate origin information - please revise based on this evidence
[UPDATE: I removed the disputed accuracy tag I originally placed based on the claims I made below. Now I see that the claims were already incorporated into the text - Locke is indeed cited properly as referring to the myth. Perhaps the article could be cleaned up a bit to show the reader quickly where some of the earliest mentions to the myth arise. My apologies for misreading the original version.] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyncvm (talk • contribs) 15:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello,

The Origin section needs to be rewritten in light of the reference below. I'm a graduate student in philosophy, and know nothing about Wikipedia editing procedures so I'm hoping someone who knows that stuff will incorporate this information into the page. (You can double check my references, since they are well known philosophical texts).

By 1690, John Locke repeatedly mentions a myth given by an `Indian' about the world resting on an elephant, which in turn rests on a tortoise. See An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, e.g.

"If any one should be asked, what is the subject wherein colour or weight inheres, he would have nothing to say, but the solid extended parts; and if he were demanded, what is it that solidity and extension adhere in, he would not be in a much better case than the Indian before mentioned who, saying that the world was supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on; to which his answer was—a great tortoise: but being again pressed to know what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied-something, he knew not what." (II.xxiii.2 from Jim Mannis's translation.) See also II.xiii.19.

This is in a discussion of what the notion of `substance' is, where Locke is trying to argue that the older notions of substance as an explanatory posit are pointless and question-begging in the same way that the cited elephant-turtle anecdote would.

Note that this source is much earlier than any of the ones I see discussed on the Origin page. There are still lots more questions as to the origin, but this pushes back its date by 200+ years from what some of the other claims here have been.

I've never edited a Wikpedia entry so I don't know how to add the info, but wanted to contribute some expert historical knowledge to try and improve the inaccuracy of the page. Would someone who has expertise in editing the page be able to incorporate this into the text?

Thanks, Nyncvm (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Homunculus Argument?
Isn't "Turtles all the way down" a kind of homunculus argument, only in reverse? — Matthew Raymond (talk) 19:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Origin
I was tempted to rebuild the "history" section in chronological order, beginning with the earliest references to Hindu world turtles, but it seemed too fitting to begin with the now-familiar form of the story and then regress to its earlier variants. But it now seems the story does first appear in 1599 as "the Hindus put the world on an elephant, and when asked they put the elephant on a turtle, but when asked again they cannot say what the turtle is standing on"; this form was used early (17th and 18th centuries) on as an illustration that infinite regress was (supposedly) a fallacy, but only in the 19th century (not coincidentially with the development of valid methods of infinite regress?) the all the way down form appears. --dab (𒁳) 08:38, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

1854
Currently the article says 'The earliest known version of the story in its "turtle" form appeared in 1854', but while the citation supports the quote it does not support the fact that it is the earliest know version. The claim either needs a citation or it neads to be change to "Another version of the story..." -- PBS (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Changes to lead section
According to Manual of Style/Lead section, the primary function of the lead section is to summarize what's discussed in the main body of the article. It says in particular, "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." In light of this, I decided to remove two paragraphs from the lead section. The specific passage I removed is:

"The expression is an illustration of the concept of Anavastha in Indian philosophy, and refers to the defect of infinite regress in any philosophical argument. Contrary to most extant western references, it is not a popular Hindu belief. Rather, it is a widely accepted principle in Indian philosophy, commonly used to reject arguments for the creator God or "unmoved mover". The phrase has been commonly known since at least the early 20th century. A comparable metaphor describing the circular cause and consequence for the same problem is the "chicken and egg problem". The same problem in epistemology is known as the Münchhausen trilemma."

I decided to remove these paragraphs because the topics they bring up (i.e., Anavastha, the "chicken and egg problem", and the Münchhausen trilemma) are only discussed in the intro and not elaborated on in the main text. This is a clear breach of the policy I mentioned above.

I've already incorporated the second paragraph into §2, "Notable modern allusions or variations". I think it would also work to integrate the paragraph on Anavastha into the section on Hindu mythology, although I haven't done that yet.

What do you all think?

Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Changes to §2, "Notable modern allusions or variations"
I recently removed a good chunk of material from §2. With the exception of the sentence on Clifford Geertz's book (which I removed because it did not fit the flow of the section), all of the material I removed was unsourced. The material I did keep (e.g., the excerpt from Scalia's Supreme Court opinion, the sentence on John Green's book, and the sentence on the song by Sturgill Simpson) was all reliably referenced. I believe any new material added to the section should be sourced in a similar manner. Besides upholding the bedrock Wikipedia principle of verifiability, this would guard against the section becoming a collection of superfluous trivia. As is mentioned in WP:Notability, insisting on verifiability is probably the best way to avoid an indiscriminate inclusion of topics.

I also moved the quotes from Hawking and Russell from the "History" section to §2. Those quotes were out of place in the history section. Hawking, in particular, is an indisputably modern author; it doesn't make sense to feature a quote from him in a section where all the other excerpts are from the 19th century or earlier (or, in the case of Ross, discussing a story from the 19th century). While an argument could be made for keeping Russell's quote in the history section, I decided to move it as well because Hawking explicitly mentions Russell in his excerpt, so separating the two could lead to confusion.

Finally, I moved the paragraph from the lead section discussing the Münchhausen trilemma and the chicken and egg problem into §2. I'm not sure if this paragraph should be kept. It doesn't fit well into the overall scheme of the article and it is unsourced. However, I was hesitant to delete it because it does seem somewhat relevant (the Münchhausen trilemma in particular). I'm just not sure the best way to integrate it into the existing structure of the article.

Any thoughts? If anyone disagrees with the changes I made I would be happy to discuss them further.

Regards, Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 05:43, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Machine learning
Thanks for the explanation in your revert—I missed the parenthetical when I skimmed through the source initially. I still think the source should be removed from the article though. A parenthetical of "turtles all the way down" just isn't comparable with the mentions of the phrase from David Hume or Bertrand Russell that are described in the body of the article. Not only are Hume and Russell considerably more notable than whoever wrote the Medium article, they actually devote more than a parenthetical to the phrase. The Medium article feels painfully out of place as a result. Would you oppose me removing it? Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable and I wouldn't oppose, seems a very esoteric reference. Sorry if my revert was heavy-handed, I wanted to make sure you didn't miss the parenthetical. Opencooper (talk) 02:24, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll go ahead and remove it. The source is interesting reading, but it doesn't really fit in the context of the article. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 09:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Turtles all the way down


text:
Private cancellation

Private cancellations are cancellations of postage stamps, or in some cases, artist stamps applied by other than a government or other official stamp-issuing entity.

In the United States
Private postmarks are commonly used with private postal meters. They are also occasionally used to create "first day of issue" items for personalized U.S. postage (officially defined as meter labels and thus not requiring cancellation). Private cancellations are often applied by local posts to their stamps (this is frequently also the first day of issue).

Another type of private cancellation, used in the United States, is the Mailer's Postmark Permit, by which license-holders can cancel their own mail under certain conditions. They can in the U.S. be applied to mail carried outside the post by authority of the private express statutes. An example of this is the Chickensville, Michigan private cancellation, applied to mail carried, although Chickensville does not have a post office.

Private postmarks have also been used as back-stamps showing the name of the firm from which the mail was sent.

United States taxation
In the United States if the time of posting is significant and there is both a private and regular cancellation, the regular cancellation controls. Private postmarks are not considered valid in some other cases.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Private cancellation


text:
Talk:James Howell

Untitled
Page has been subject to some abuse, please monitor —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llanelli P (talk • contribs) 11:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone know who 'Woolf' is in this article? DJ Clayworth 15:52, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Daniel Woolf Dean of University Of Ontario; Doctoral thesis written on JH, some years ago, of excellent merit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WALL1FER (talk • contribs) 17:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This James Howell’s descendants from Howell Howell include one John Howell whose memorial is recorded inside on the north wall of St Lucia, Abernant, Carmarthen. ‘This marble is devoted to John Howell of Rhydd Y Garreg Ddu, a member of the Royal College of Surgeons in London. Surgeon in the honourable East India Company’s service to the 7th Regiment native infantry, Bengal;beloved by the Corps for his professional Knowledge, integrity and friendly disposition. On the 28th June 1819 And 38th year of his age he died in Bengal much lamented by a wide circle of acquaintance.

St Lucia’s church in Abernant. Aurora Gordon (talk) 16:45, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Translations
Should in this article not mention be made of his wonderful sentence in the Familiar Letters: "Some hold translations not unlike to be The wrong side of a turkish tapestry." ?--Terminallyuncool2 (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:James Howell


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User:SanderSpek~enwiki

Hi. Most of the time I work on the Dutch wikipedia. If you want to talk to me, please use my talk page there.

de:Benutzer:SanderSpeknl:Gebruiker:SanderSpek

title: User:SanderSpek~enwiki


text:
User talk:SanderSpek~enwiki

If you want to talk with me, please use the Dutch wikipedia. You can talk in English on my page there.

Your account will be renamed
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The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called SanderSpek. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name SanderSpek~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:SanderSpek~enwiki


text:
Kannada cinema

Kannada cinema, also known as Sandalwood, or Chandanavana, is the segment of Indian cinema dedicated to the production of motion pictures in the Kannada language widely spoken in the state of Karnataka. Kannada cinema is based in Gandhi Nagar, Bangalore. The 1934 film Sati Sulochana directed by Y. V. Rao was the first talkie film released in the Kannada language. It was also the first film starring Subbaiah Naidu and Tripuramba, and the first screened in the erstwhile Mysore Kingdom. It was produced by Chamanlal Doongaji, who in 1932 founded South India Movietone in Bangalore.

Major literary works have been adapted to the Kannada screen, such as B. V. Karanth's Chomana Dudi (1975), (based on Chomana Dudi by Shivaram Karanth), Girish Karnad's Kaadu (1973), (based on Kaadu by Srikrishna Alanahalli), Pattabhirama Reddy's Samskara (1970) (based on Samskara by U. R. Ananthamurthy), which won the Bronze Leopard at Locarno International Film Festival, and T. S. Nagabharana's Mysuru Mallige (1992), based on the works of poet K. S. Narasimhaswamy.

Kannada cinema is known for producing experimental works such as Girish Kasaravalli's Ghatashraddha (1977), which won the Ducats Award at the Manneham Film Festival Germany, Dweepa (2002), which won Best Film at Moscow International Film Festival, Singeetam Srinivasa Rao's silent film Pushpaka Vimana (1987), Ram Gopal Varma's docudrama Killing Veerappan (2016), Prashanth Neel's action franchise K. G. F. film series being the highest-grossing Kannada film, and Rishab Shetty's Kantara (2022).

Kannada cinema is reported to have 8% market share in the gross domestic box office collections for the period January to August 2022, making it the fourth-biggest Indian film industry. The share rose to 9% by October 2022. The total gross collections of the top five Kannada movies of 2022 in first ten months was reported to be ₹1800 crores. The year 2022 began new era for the industry in terms of popularity, quality content and collections. However, the market share of Kannada movies in the gross domestic box office collections declined to 2% in 2023 with the footfalls dropping from 8.1 to 3.2 crores in 2022.

Early history
In 1934, the first Kannada talkie, Sati Sulochana, appeared in theatres, followed by Bhakta Dhruva (aka Dhruva Kumar). Sati Sulochana, starring Subbaiah Naidu and Tripuramba, was shot in Kolhapur at the Chatrapathi studio; most filming, sound recording, and post-production was done in Chennai.

In 1949, Honnappa Bhagavathar, who had earlier acted in Gubbi Veeranna's films, produced Bhakta Kumbara and starred in the lead role along with Pandaribai. In 1955, Bhagavathar again produced a Kannada film, Mahakavi Kalidasa, in which he introduced actress B. Saroja Devi. B. S. Ranga was an Indian photographer, actor, writer, producer and director made many landmark movies in Kannada, under Vikram Studios.

Mainstream
Matinee idol, Rajkumar entered Kannada cinema after his long stint as a dramatist with Gubbi Veeranna's Gubbi Drama Company, which he joined at the age of eight, before he got his first break as a lead in the 1954 film Bedara Kannappa.

He went on to essay a variety of roles and excelling in portraying mythological and historical characters in films such as Bhakta Kanakadasa (1960), Ranadheera Kanteerava (1960), Satya Harishchandra (1965), Immadi Pulikeshi (1967), Sri Krishnadevaraya (1970), Bhakta Kumbara (1974), Mayura (1975), Babruvahana (1977) and Bhakta Prahlada (1983). His wife Parvathamma Rajkumar founded Film production and distribution company, Sri Vajreshwari Combines.

Vishnuvardhan entered Kannada cinema with the National Award-winning movie Vamsha Vriksha (1972) directed by Girish Karnad based on the novel written by S. L. Bhyrappa. His first lead role was in Naagarahaavu, directed by Puttanna Kanagal and based on a novel by T. R. Subba Rao. It was the first in Kannada film history to complete 100 days in three main theatres of Bangalore. In his 37-year career, he has played a variety of roles in more than 200 films.

With his debut in Puttanna Kanagal's National Award-winning Kannada film Naagarahaavu (1972), Ambareesh's acting career commenced with a brief phase of portraying antagonistic and supporting characters. After establishing himself as a lead actor portraying rebellious characters on screen in a number of commercially successful films, he earned the moniker "rebel star". He also earned the nickname Mandyada Gandu ( Man of Mandya)

Rajkumar, Vishnuvardhan and Ambareesh are collectively known as Kannada cinema's triumvirate.

Method actor Shankar Nag received the inaugural IFFI Best Actor Award (Male): Silver Peacock Award" at the 7th International Film Festival of India for his work in the film Ondanondu Kaladalli. He is the younger brother of actor Anant Nag. M. V. Vasudeva Rao, the first Kannada actor to win National Film Award for Best Actor, was starred in over 200 films in his career; however, post Chomana Dudi, he only played minor roles.

B. Saroja Devi is one of the most successful female leads in the history of Indian cinema, she acted in around 200 films in over seven decades. She is known by the epithets "Abinaya Saraswathi" (Saraswati of acting) in Kannada and "Kannadathu Paingili" (Kannada's Parrot) in Tamil.

M. V. Rajamma (first female producer of Indian cinema) and Pandari Bai are considered as the earliest female superstars of Kannada cinema. Other popular female actresses of 1970s through 1990s include Leelavathi, Kalpana, Aarathi, Bharathi, Jayanthi, Manjula, Malashree, Sudharani, Shruti, Tara among others.

Neo-realistic cinema
Kannada Cinema majorly contributed to the parallel cinema movement of India. Directors like Girish Kasaravalli, Girish Karnad, G. V. Iyer were the early names to join the movement. T. S. Nagabharana and B. V. Karanth were also popular names in the movement. Puttanna Kanagal's films were however considered a bridge between Mainstream and Parallel Cinema.

Modern era
Prakash Raj began his acting career with Doordarshan serials such as Bisilu Kudure (Kannada) and Guddada Bhootha (Tulu and Kannada). He later took up supporting roles in Kannada films such as Ramachari, Ranadheera, Nishkarsha and Lockup Death. He was known for his dialogue delivery and histrionics. His breakthrough role came in Harakeya Kuri, directed by K. S. L. Swamy starring Vishnuvardhan, with whom he had acted in other films such as Mithileya Seetheyaru, Muthina Haara and Nishkarsha. Prakash re-entered Kannada films through Nagamandala in 1997, directed by T. S. Nagabharana. Veteran Kannada actor Shakti Prasad's son Arjun Sarja is known for his work in South Indian cinema. He starred in movies such as Prasad; the film was screened at the Berlin Film Festival and Arjun received the Karnataka State Award for his performance in it.

Sanchari Vijay's portrayal of a transgender won him the National Best Actor Award. With the award, Vijay became the third actor after M. V. Vasudeva Rao, and Charuhasan to win the National Award for Best Actor for a performance in a Kannada film.

Shiva Rajkumar is known for his work in Janumada Jodi, Anand, Ratha Sapthami, Nammoora Mandara Hoove, Om, Simhada Mari and Chigurida Kanasu. He acted in Sugreeva, which was shot in 18 hours. His Om, directed by Upendra, set a trend of gangster movies in Kannada and other film industries in India. It continues to be shown even to this day.

Rockline Venkatesh founded Rockline Entertainments which has produced over twenty five films as of 2012. New age actors - Yash, Darshan, Puneeth Rajkumar, Rakshit Shetty and Sudeepa are some of the highest paid actors in Sandalwood. The Rakshit Shetty starrer Kirik Party went on to become one of the highest-grossing Kannada films by collecting ₹ 50 crores against a production budget ₹ 4 crores and completed 150 days in the main cities of Karnataka.

The 2015 release RangiTaranga starring Nirup Bhandari and directed by Anup Bhandari, created overseas market for Kannada cinema with a mega release, amassing $318,000 in USA alone. It went on to become the first Kannada film to enter the New York Box office listing, the first Kannada film to complete 50 days in USA and the first Kannada movie ever to release in several countries across the world. It ran for 365 days in Bangalore.

In 2018, Yash starrer K.G.F: Chapter 1 became the first Kannada film to gross ₹250 crores at the box office. Its sequel, K.G.F: Chapter 2 (2022) made ₹ 1000 crores at the box office. Its teaser gained more than 250 million views on YouTube as of April 2022. In 2022, Yash starrer K.G.F: Chapter 2 became the highest-grossing Kannada film of all time with a record collection of over ₹1000 crores within India itself. Kananda cinema is reported to have 8% market share in the gross domestic box office collections for the period January to July 2022 making it the fourth biggest Indian film industry.

Film scores
Composer Hamsalekha is usually referred to by the title Naadha Brahma ( The Brahma of Music) who is considered to be the major cause for the change in the music composing and lyric writing style which would appeal much to the younger generation. He integrated folk and introduced western musical sensibilities into the Kannada cinema.

Mano Murthy scored the blockbuster film Mungaru Male starring Ganesh and Pooja Gandhi. Upon the album's release, it topped the charts with the song "Anisuthide" receiving significant radio and TV air time. The album emerged as a massive success topping every Kannada music chart. It was reported that by mid-May 2007, over 200,000 copies were sold in compact discs.

International recognition
The 1964 movie Naandi set a landmark by being the first ever Kannada film to be screened at an international film festival. It was screened at IFFI 1992 Kannada cinema Retrospect. The 1969 movie Uyyale was screened twice at the IFFI retrospect - once in 1992 and again in 2019.

The 1970 movie Samskara won the Bronze Leopard at Locarno International Film Festival The 1977 movie Ghatashraddha which had the distinction of being shown at the Museum of Modern Art, New York, became the only Indian film to be chosen by the National Archive of Paris among 100 others, during the centenary celebrations of cinema. It also won the Ducats Award at the Manneham Film Festival Germany. At the 2009 International Film Festival of India, it was announced one of the 20 best films in Indian cinema, having received 1.6 million votes. The 1978 movie Ondanondu Kaladalli was released at The Guild Theatre, 50 Rockefeller Plaza on 17 May 1982. Vincent Canby, the chief film critic of The New York Times, called the movie "that is both exotic as well as surprising in view of all the bodies on the ground at the end, sweet natured!". The film was subtitled into English for its American premiere on 18 October 1995 in Shriver Hall at the Johns Hopkins University as part of the 1995 Milton S. Eisenhower Symposium "Framing Society : A Century of Cinema".

The 1987 film Pushpaka Vimana featured retrospectively in the Shanghai International Film Festival and Whistling Woods Film Festival.

The 1999 film Upendra was screened at the Yubari International Fantastic Film Festival in Japan in 2001. The 1999 movie Deveeri was selected for 18 international film festivals including the 44th London International Film Festival and the Cairo International Film Festival.

The 2000 movie Munnudi was screened at Palm Springs International Film Festival (2002). The 2002 movie Atithi was screened at Cairo International Film Festival. The 2002 movie Dweepa was screened at the Moscow International Film Festival. The 2004 movie Hasina was screened at Berlin's Asia Pacific Film Festival. The 2004 movie Bimba was selected for the Bangkok International Film Festival. The 2006 movie Thutturi won the Best Audience Award at the 9th Dhaka International Film Festival. and won the Earth Vision Award of 2005-06 at the 15th Tokyo Global Environmental Film Festival. The 2006 movie Naayi Neralu was screened at six international film festivals including International Film Festival Rotterdam, Bangkok International Film Festival, Palm Springs International Film Festival, Osian's Film Festival and the Karachi International Film Festival. The 2006 movie Care of Footpath was selected for the Kids for Kids Film Festival at Cyprus and the 2006 film Cyanide was selected for the London Film Festival.

The 2010 movie Kanasemba Kudureyaneri won the NETPAC Award at the Asiatica Film Mediale (Italy) (2010). The 2011 film Koormavatara was screened in 17 film festivals and won acclaims at the film festivals of Bangkok, New York and Vancouver. The 2012 movie Edegarike was selected for Mumbai Women's International Film Festival (2013). The 2013 movie Lucia premiered at the London Indian Film Festival on 20 July 2013. It won the Best Film Audience Choice award at the festival. It was also screened at the Zurich Film Festival. The 2015 movie Thithi won accolades at multiple international film festivals including the 68th Locarno International Film Festival and the 19th Shanghai International Film Festival. The 2016 movie Railway Children won the Ecumenical Jury Award (special mention) at Zlín Film Festival. The 2016 film Bombeyaata won three awards at seven International Film Festivals. Hombanna (2017) won four awards at Five Continents International Film Festival, Venezuela and was also selected for screening at the 2017 Miami Independent Film Festival. The 2018 movie Nathicharami and Balekempa were screened at the MAMI Mumbai Film Festival. Balekempa also won the FIPRESCI Award at the 47th International Film Festival Rotterdam. The 2019 movie Arishadvarga also premiered at the London Indian Film Festival followed by the Asian Premiere at the Singapore South Asian International Film Festival and the North American Premiere at the Vancouver International South Asian Film Festival. The 2019 movie Manaroopa won 10 awards at various international film festivals including the Best Thriller Film at Out of the Can International Film Festival at England, Best Experimental Film at the Cafe Irani Chaii International Film Festival and was officially selected for the Miami Independent Film Festival in the United States and the Istanbul Film Awards in Turkey.

In the post - pandemic era, Kannada cinema started making waves across the world in several international film festivals. Pinki Elli? was screened at around 50 International Film Festivals including the Prague International Film Festival and the Hainan International Film Festival. It opened the Busan International Film Festival and was screened at Hong Kong International Film Festival. It won three awards at the New York Indian Film Festival. It also won the Best Film award at the Asian Film Festival Barcelona 2021. Amruthamathi was screened at ten international film festivals including Boston Film Festival, Atlanta Film Festival , Austria Film Festival and won multiple awards. Abhilash Shetty's Koli Taal premiered at the 21st New York Indian Film Festival. It was then screened at various film festivals including the 18th Indian Film Festival of Stuttgart and the 12th Indian Film Festival of Melbourne. Neeli Hakki was selected for multiple international Film festivals including the New York Indian Film Festival. Pinni (2020) was selected in the competition category at the New York Indian Film Festival. Daari Yaavudayya Vaikunthakke ? won a total of 94 awards including multiple awards at Rajasthan Film Festival and other international film festivals like Sundance Film Festival, Barcelona, Nawada, 7 Colours International Film Festival and Golden Sparrow International Film Festival. Illiralaare Allige Hogalaare won the Director's Vision Award at the 18th Indian Film Festival of Stuggart. It was earlier screened at the Dhaka International Film Festival and had won an award at the Rome Film Festival. It also won award at the Spain International Film Festival in Madrid. Baraguru Ramachandrappa's Mooka Nayaka won the Best Picture of the Decade Award by competing with movies from different languages around the globe. Jeevnane Nataka Samy (2021) was screened at Miami International Film Festival. Avalakki Pavalakki won five awards in various categories at Uravatti International Film Festival, Indo Global International Film Festival, American Golden Pictures International Film Festival, Oniros Film Festival and the Sweden Film Festival. Rudri won multiple awards at Oniros Film Festival, Tagore International Film Festival and the Vindhya International Film Festival. Naanu Ladies had its world premier at the 16th Tasveer South Asian Film Festival in Seattle. It went on to win the Best Narrative Feature Award at the Kashish Mumbai International Queer Film Festival.

Pedro had its world premiere in the New Currents Section at the 26th edition of the Busan International Film Festival. and was shortlisted for the Directors Fortnight Cannes 2020. It went on to win the Best Director Award in the Crouching Tigers competition section at the Pingyao International Film Festival in Shanxi, China. It was also the joint winner of the Montgolfiere D'Argent Award at the Festival Des 3 Continents, France. It was also screened at the Indian Film Festival of Los Angeles(IFFLA) and at the Indian Film Festival of Melbourne. Dollu was screened at the Dhaka International Film Festival. It was shortlisted for screening at 72nd Berlinale's European Film Market and the Dallas ft worth South Asian Film Festival (virtual). It was also screened at the Caleidoscope Indian Film Festival Boston where it won the Best Indian Film award. It also won the Best Kannada Movie award at Innovative International Film Festival. Namma Magu received recognition from the International Organization for Migration (IOM).

Taledanda (2022) was selected for London International Film Festival. Koli Esru was selected for screening at New York Indian Film Festival (2022). Shivamma was selected for Marche du Film (2022) - the business counterpart of the Cannes Film Festival. It was also screened at the 27th Busan International Film Festival where it won the New Currents Award given to first or second feature film of a new Asian director. It also won the Young Jury Award at the 44th edition of the Three Continents Festival. It was also selected for screening at the US and Australian film festivals in 2023. Man Of The Match (2022), produced by Puneeth Rajkumar, was selected for screening at the 14th New York City Independent Film Festival in the foreign film category. In 2022, Shuddhi (2017) and Bell Bottom (2019) premiered at the Indian Film Week in Japan. Vagachi Pani was selected for the co-production market at the film festival in Busan. Thayi Kastur Gandhi was screened at LA Film Festival and it won the Best Editor award at the Dallas International Film Festival. Hadinelentu was screened at the Jiseok section of the Busan International Film Festival (2022).

1888 was screened at several International film festivals across the world. The 2012 movie Edegarike was screened at the Indo-French International Film Festival in 2023. Kantara, Koli Esru and Hadinelentu were nominated in various categories at the 14th edition of Indian Film Festival of Melbourne(IFFM) - 2023. Devara Kanasu was screened at around 30 film festivals, including an entry to participate in the panel screening and final selection of the Cannes Film Festival. Brahma Kamala won several awards and accolades at various film festivals including the Eediplay International Film Festival in France, Wonderland International Film Festival in Sydney, Old Monk International Film Festival in Nepal and the Indo-Singapore Film Festival. Shivamma won the Grand Prix Award at the 17th Andrei Tarkovsky Zerkalo International Film Festival, Ivanovo (2023). Hadinelentu and Koli Esru won awards at the Ottawa Indian Film Festival Awards 2023. Koli Esru also premiered at the Indo-German Film Week. Naanu Kusuma won award at the Gange Sur Garonne International Film Festival (2023) in France. Chinnara Chandra was selected for Ahmedabad International Children Film Festival and Melbourne International Film Festival. Kantara won the Special Jury Award, also known as the Silver Peacock Award - at the 54th International Film Festival of India (2023) - making it the first Kannada movie to win that award. Mrityorma won four awards at the 6th Moonwhite Films International Film Festival. Timmana Mottegalu was screened at the 29th Kolkata International Film Festival. Tharini was selected for screening at the Rajasthan International Film Festival.

Mikka Bannada Hakki won the Best Actor Award at the Shanghai International Film Festival (2024). Kenda premiered at the New York University Tisch School of the Arts and Switzerland.

National recognition

 * The song Baare Baare from the 1972 movie Naagarahaavu was the first slow-motion song of Indian cinema.
 * The 1986 movie Anuraga Aralithu was the first Indian movie to be remade in seven other languages.
 * The 1986 movie Africadalli Sheela was the first Indian movie to be shot in African forests.
 * The 1987 movie Ondu Muttina Kathe was the first Indian film to have an underwater action sequence shot in an ocean outside India without the help of oxygen mask.
 * The 1989 movie Idu Saadhya created a record by becoming the first Indian movie to be shot within a span of 36 hours.
 * The 1995 movie Om is the only Indian movie to have been re-released 550 times.
 * The 2005 movie Shanti was the second Indian film to enter the Guinness Book of World Records in the Fewest actors in a narrative film category. It had only one actor with the other characters represented through voice and no physical appearance.
 * The 2006 Kannada movie Mungaru Male was the first Indian movie to run for a year in a multiplex.
 * The 2022 film K.G.F: Chapter 2 became the first movie to gross more than ₹400 crores within India in its opening weekend. It also became the first South Indian movie to gross more than ₹550 crores in its opening weekend.
 * The 2022 film Kantara collected ₹25.5 crore in its sixth weekend which was reported to be the highest sixth weekend collection as well as the highest sixth week collection for an Indian movie. Its seventh week collection of ₹24 crores was the highest for an Indian movie surpassing ₹11 crores collected by Baahubali 2: The Conclusion in its seventh week.

State Recognition

 * Karnataka State Film Awards
 * Udaya Film Awards
 * Suvarna Film Awards

State film festivals

 * Bangalore International Film Festival

Other awards

 * Filmfare Awards South
 * SIIMA Awards
 * IIFA Utsavam
 * Mirchi Music Awards South
 * South Scope Awards
 * Chandanavana Film Critics Academy Awards
 * Hello Gandhinagara Awards

Film schools
The first government institute in India to start technical courses related to films was established in 1941 named as occupational institute then called the Sri Jayachamarajendra (S J) Polytechnic in Bangalore. In September 1996, two specialised courses, Cinematography and Sound & Television were separated and the Government Film and Television Institute was started at Hesaraghatta, under the World Bank Assisted Project for Technician Development in India.

title: Kannada cinema


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Talk:Autologous

Untitled
There may be a way to combine the two uses but I can't see a good way to do it other that what I have presented. - Texture 16:07, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

How about adding a pronunciation? I would, but that's what I came here looking for... UnkleFester (talk) 02:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Autologous


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Plankowner

A plankowner (also referred to a plank owner and sometimes a plank holder) is an individual who was a member of the crew of a United States Navy ship or United States Coast Guard Cutter, or a Royal Canadian Navy ship, when that ship was placed in commission. Originally, this term applied only to crew members that were present at the ship's first commissioning. Today, however, plankowner is often applied to members of newly commissioned units, new military bases and recommissioning crews as well.

In U.S. military
Plankowner is a term used by the United States Navy, and has consequently been variously defined by different units. The origin of the term is the implication that a crew member was around when the ship was being built and commissioned, and therefore has bragging rights to the "ownership" of one of the planks in the main deck.

Historically, a plankowner in the United States Navy and United States Coast Guard, or his widow, could petition the Naval Historical Center's Curator Branch for a piece of the deck when the ship was decommissioned. This practice has been discontinued and stocks of planking that existed at the Curator branch have been donated to various veteran's organizations.

Sailors who are plankowners at their current command often have the word "PLANKOWNER" embroidered on the back of their uniform ball cap to denote this designation. A plaque is placed aboard the ship with the crew names. When in port, the departure of a plankowner for the final time is usually announced on the 1MC public announcing system with a bell-ring, as  "Plankowner, departing".

In the United States Navy SEALs, the term refers to the original or "founding" members of a SEAL Team.

title: Plankowner


text:
User:JillandJack

Note: This is a reincarnation of banned User:DW - and this account was banned by Adam Bishop and Angela on February 19, 2005

We are User:JackandJill but be damned if either of us can remember the password!

Beyond all the minor things, here is a list of contributions by Jill and her slave, Jack. Done from memory, there are probably a few that are missing.

Music & Entertainment
Igor Talkov - Yvonne Printemps - Eva Tanguay - May Irwin - Tony Pastor - The Poppy Family - Terry Jacks - Lefty Frizzell - Louisiana Hayride - Yvette Guilbert - Marie Dubas - Tino Rossi - Fréhel - Aristide Bruant - Guy Béart - La Goulue - Jane Avril - Lina Cavalieri - Ginette Neveu - Marcelle Lender - Bill "Bojangles" Robinson - Andy Kim - Long John Baldry - The Canadian Sweethearts - Lucille Starr - Doug Kershaw - Freddy Cannon - Cindy Walker (stub) - Tommy Roe - Leopold Widhalm - Don Messer's Jubilee - Lolo Ferrari - Bill Dees - Joe Melson (rewrite) - In Dreams - The Fastest Guitar Alive - Roy Orbison's Greatest Hits - Daniel Lavoie (stub)

Film & Theater
Sacha Guitry - Enchanted April - Olive Thomas - Judy Tyler - Cinderella Man - Curt Jurgens - Mariska Hargitay - Douglass Dumbrille - William S. Hart - Hope Lange - Christie Film Company - Goldwyn Picture Corporation - Nestor Studios - David Horsley - Lois Hamilton - Lili Damita - Pearl White - Jeanne Eagels - Dar Robinson - Oscar A.C. Lund - John Bunny - Florence Turner - Gladys Brockwell - Evelyn Brent – Wallace Reid - Beyond The Sea - Leo Carrillo - Jennifer Syme - Sylvia Lopez - Charles W. Goddard - Georges Courteline - King Creole - Hal B. Wallis - Johnny Mack Brown - René Clément - Brigitte Fossey - Forbidden Games - Jeanne Aubert - Véra Korène - Maurice Tourneur - César Award for Best Director - César Award for Best Actress - César Award for Best Actor - BAFTA Award for Best Picture - Mary Anderson - Raimu - Jean de Florette - Manon des Sources - Ridicule - Olga Petrova - Lacombe Lucien - Solax Studios - Elsie Ferguson - The Devil's Brigade (film) - Grigori Chukhrai - Alla Nazimova - Ballad of a Soldier - Victor Sjöström - Warner Oland - A Short Film About Love - Joseph Schenck - Rex Allen - Marcel Carné - Gabrielle Ray - Pascale Ogier - Cléo de Mérode - Max Linder - French Kiss - Jean Gabin - Léon Gaumont - Gérard Philipe - Victor Studios - Tuesday Weld - Louis Jourdan (rewrite) - Delia Scala - Danielle Darrieux - Tammy Grimes - Frank Perry - Paul Almond (stub)

Literature
Mary Cholmondeley - Elliot Paul - Victor Noir - Jean-Paul Crespelle - Sergei Yesenin - Kay Boyle - Leandro Fernández de Moratín - Juan Carlos Onetti - Catharine Sedgwick - French Encyclopédistes - Académie Goncourt - David Graham Phillips - Anne de Noailles - Geraldine Jewsbury - August Blanche - Henri-Pierre Roché - Esther Delisle - Miranda Seymour - Laura Jean Libbey (stub) - Leslie McFarlane - Man Booker International Prize

Art
Jules Chéret – Camilo Mori - Gen Paul - Grupo Montparnasse - Musée du Montparnasse - Salon d'Automne - Orphism - Félix Ziem - Théophile Steinlen - Académie Colarossi - Albert Guillaume - Eugène Grasset - Poster art - Maîtres de l'Affiche - Lilla Cabot Perry - François Bocion - Prudence Heward - Gabrielle Renard - Anne Savage - Laura Muntz Lyall - Luc-Olivier Merson - Mary Dignam - Sophie Pemberton - André Hébuterne - Manuel Ortiz de Zárate - Albert Gleizes - Musée des Beaux-Arts Jules Chéret - Giacomo Balla - Rembrandt Bugatti - Adolphe Mouron Cassandre - Armand Guillaumin - Johan Jongkind - Pierre Roland Renoir (stub) - Edmonia Lewis - Anne Dunn (stub)

Feminism
Bibliothèque Marguerite Durand - Marguerite Durand - Maria Deraismes - Caroline Rémy de Guebhard - Henriette Caillaux - La Citoyenne - Hubertine Auclert - La Fronde

Sports
Auto racing

Targa Florio - Georges Boillot - Peter Revson - Lance Reventlow - Louis Chiron - Maurice Trintignant - Jules Goux - Antonio Ascari - Achille Varzi - Christian Lautenschlager - Ralph DePalma - Delage - Tripoli Grand Prix - Ferenc Szisz - Hermann Lang - Hellé Nice - Jean Bugatti - Luigi Fagioli - Grand Prix du Comminges - Coppa Acerbo - List of major automobile races in France - List of major automobile races in Germany - List of major automobile races in Italy - Coppa Ciano - Mille Miglia - Luigi Villoresi - Charles Pozzi - Giuseppe Campari - SPA 24 Hours - Baconin Borzacchini - Joie Chitwood - Jochen Mass - Eugenio Castellotti - Alexandre Darracq - Louis Delâge - Emile Delahaye - Automobiles Darracq S.A. - Vanderbilt Cup - Mickey Thompson - Emilio Villoresi - Circuito Lasarte - Clemente Biondetti (rewrite) - Grand Prix de la Marne - Arthur Chevrolet - Gaston Chevrolet - Emilio Materassi (stub)

Baseball

Jimmie Crutchfield - Eddie Mathews - Candy Jim Taylor

Boxing

Oscar Bonavena - James J. Jeffries - Marvin Hart - Jack Sharkey - Bob Fitzsimmons - Fighting Hilton Family - Monte Attell - James J. Corbett - Jess Willard - Maxie Rosenbloom - Yvon Durelle - Ernie Terrell (stub)

Ice hockey

Doug Harvey - Terry Sawchuk - Valery Kharlamov - Ted Lindsay - Dit Clapper (stub) - Gordie Drillon - Steve Shutt (rewrite) - Derek Sanderson - Ice hockey at the 1960 Winter Olympics - Ice hockey at the 1968 Winter Olympics - Jean Ratelle Horse racing

National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame - Horse of the Year - Willie Simms - Grosser Bugatti Preis - The Minstrel - Cigar (horse) - Kentucky Horse Park - All Along - Canonero II - Count Fleet - Johnny Longden - Bill Hartack - Risen Star - Sandy Hawley - Lucien Laurin - Horatio Luro - Stewart Elliott - Big Ben (horse) (equestrian) - Hippodrome de Longchamp

Tennis

Suzanne Lenglen - Tony Wilding - May Sutton - Gottfried von Cramm

Sundry sports:

World Wrestling Champions - Gordon Bennett Cup in ballooning - Inga Artamonova - Susan Butcher - Paul Hornung - Owen figure-skating family (Biographies: Guy Owen, Maribel Vinson-Owen, Maribel Y. Owen, Laurence Owen) - Ann Heggtveit - Lucille Wheeler - Victor Davis - Perdita Felicien - Audrey Mestre - Chi Cheng - Bernie Faloney - Henri Cornet - Sergei Grinkov - Ekaterina Gordeeva - Figure skating at the 1960 Winter Olympics - Alpine skiing at the 1960 Winter Olympics - Bobsleigh at the 1964 Winter Olympics - Alpine skiing at the 1964 Winter Olympics - Figure skating at the 1964 Winter Olympics - Alpine skiing at the 1968 Winter Olympics - Figure skating at the 1968 Winter Olympics

Last Addresses:
Cypress Lawn Memorial Park - Allegheny Cemetery - Sparkman-Hillcrest Memorial Park Cemetery - Cementerio de la Chacarita - Camp Hill Cemetery - Fernhill Cemetery - Cimetière Notre-Dame-des-Neiges - Cimetière de Pantin - Mount Royal Cemetery - Vysehrad cemetery - Vagan'kovskoye Cemetery - Burr Oak Cemetery and Restvale Cemetery - Bellefontaine and Calvary Cemeteries - Cemetery of the Gate of Heaven - Forest Lawn Memorial Gardens - Hendersonville Memory Gardens - Cementerio General de Chile - St. Mary's Roman Catholic Cemetery - Norra begravningsplatsen - Skogskyrkogarden - Cimetière des Chiens - Notre Dame Cemetery - Cementerio de la Almudena - Cypress Hills Cemetery - Ross Bay Cemetery - Cimitero Monumentale di Milano - Moravian Cemetery - Beechwood Cemetery - Cimetière Notre-Dame-de-Belmont

Notable families:
Astor family - David Astor - John Jacob Astor VI - John Jacob Astor, 1st Baron Astor of Hever - William Backhouse Astor, Jr. - William Waldorf Astor, 1st Viscount Astor - Waldorf Astor, 2nd Viscount Astor - Delano family - Columbus Delano - Jane Delano - Rothschild family - James Mayer Rothschild - Château Mouton Rothschild - Elisabeth de Rothschild - Nathaniel de Rothschild - Philippe de Rothschild - Bethsabée de Rothschild - Vanderbilt family - The Breakers - Cornelius Vanderbilt III - Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney - Gloria Laura Mercedes Morgan-Vanderbilt - William Henry Vanderbilt III - Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt - George Washington Vanderbilt II (rewrite) - George Washington Vanderbilt III (stub) - Harold Stirling Vanderbilt - William Kissam Vanderbilt II - Molson Family - William Waldorf Astor, 3rd Viscount Astor - Philip Gordon Dunn, 2nd Baronet Dunn (stub) - James Hamet Dunn, 1st Baronet Dunn - Marcia Anastasia Christoforides - Alfred Lowenstein - Frederick Stark Pearson (rewrite) - Hartland Molson - John Redpath - George Stephen, 1st Baron Mount Stephen - Hugh Graham, 1st Baron Atholstan - John Wilson McConnell - Percival Molson - William Workman (stub) - H. Montagu Allan - William C. Macdonald - F. Ross Johnson

Sundry biographies:
Mafalda Maria Elisabetta of Savoy - Karl Hass - Robert Mondavi - Barbara Hutton - William Machin Stairs - Karla Homolka - Vicki Morgan - Alfred S. Bloomingdale - Marc Lépine - Alain Robert - Leonard Jerome - Adam von Trott zu Solz - Alexandre-Théodore Brongniart - Mary Jayne Gold - Miriam Davenport - Diane Francis - Simon McTavish - William Lauder - Henry Morgan - Jean Nicolet - Karl Otto Pöhl - Matilde Moisant (stub) - Theodore Isaac Rubin (stub) - Michel Chartrand - Camille Laurin - Jacques de Bernonville (rewrite) - Fernand de Brinon

Sundry articles:
Peninsula Hotel - The Ardeatine massacre - List of Canadian divisions in WWI - 1st Canadian Division - 2nd Canadian Division - 3rd Canadian Division - 4th Canadian Division - 5th Canadian Division - Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855 - Union Bank of Halifax - List of famous hotels - Villefranche-sur-Mer - Hotel Negresco - Sun Life Financial Inc. - Hôtel de Crillon - Ancona Province - Restigouche River (stub) - Dysfunctional family (stub) - Hôtel Ritz Paris - Royal Victoria Hospital - Duplessis Orphans - North West Company (rewrite) - Scotch-Québécois - Huntingdon, Quebec - Company of One Hundred Associates - Redpath Sugar - Bishop's College School (stub) - Drancy deportation camp - Quebec Chronicle-Telegraph - Carib Expulsion - Oka, Quebec (stub) - Macdonald College

Complete or major rewrites of stubs etc.:
Althea Gibson - Bobby Riggs - Michael Kadoorie - Geneviève Bujold - Abraham Gesner - Samuel Goldwyn - Man O' War (racehorse) - Werner Klemperer - Larry Robinson - John Dos Passos - Country Music Hall of Fame - Roger Miller - Smarty Jones - James J. Braddock - Kenneth Roy Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet - American Field Service - Sidney Howard - Maria Bueno - Marie-Louise Damien - James Oliver Curwood - Peg Entwistle - Herald of Free Enterprise - Charlotte Cushman - Mathilde Bonaparte - Alice Guy-Blaché - Kolya - Pretty Woman - Deliverance - The English Patient - Polaire - Le Rire - Jeanne Hébuterne - Pathé Frères - Beaver Hall Hill Group - Porfirio Rubirosa (rewrite) - Stradivarius

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If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Fritz S. (Talk) 09:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

title: User:JillandJack


text:
Processed cheese

Processed cheese (also known as process cheese; related terms include cheese food, prepared cheese, or cheese product) is a product made from cheese mixed with an emulsifying agent (actually a calcium chelator). Additional ingredients, such as vegetable oils, unfermented dairy ingredients, salt, food coloring, or sugar may be included. As a result, many flavors, colors, and textures of processed cheese exist. Processed cheese typically contains around 50 to 60% cheese and 40 to 50% other ingredients.

History
Processed cheese was first developed in Switzerland in 1911, when Walter Gerber and Fritz Stettler, seeking a cheese with longer shelf life and influenced by fondue and cheese sauces, added sodium citrate to melted Emmentaler cheese and found that the emulsified cheese sauce could be re-cooled into a solid again. Shortly after, in 1916, Canadian-American businessman James L. Kraft applied for the first U.S. patent covering a new method of storing cheese, which halts the maturation process by sterilization.

Advantages
Processed cheese has several technical advantages over natural cheese, including a far longer shelf life, resistance to separating when cooked (meltability), and a uniform look and physical behavior. Its mass-produced nature also provides a dramatically lower cost—to producers and consumers alike—than conventional cheesemaking. This, in turn, enables industrial-scale production volumes, lower distribution costs, a steadier supply, and much faster production time compared to traditional cheeses.

Because processed cheese does not separate when melted, it is used as an ingredient in a variety of dishes. Unlike some unprocessed cheeses, heating does not alter its taste or texture.

Chemistry
Processed cheese is made with the goal of being meltable without the fat separating from the protein. A traditional cheese consists of individual fat globules trapped in a network of casein, with calcium holding the casein molecules together. With prolonged heating, the typical result is a lumpy combination of protein gel and liquid fat on top. Processed cheese adds a calcium-sequestering agent, often mistakenly called an "emulsifier" ("emulsifying salt" and "emulsifying agent" are correct, however), to stop calcium from being able to hold this casein network together. Smaller groups of linked casein molecules are then able to better mix into the fat when melted, forming microscopic droplets instead of large lumps. Common calcium-sequestering agents include sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, tartrate, and citrate. (Tartaric acid found in wine is the original calcium-sequestering agent used in Swiss fondue.)

The longer shelf-life is not directly because of the emulsifying agent, but because it allows existing heat-based sterilization methods, such as canning, to be applied to the cheese without forming lumps.

Sale and labeling
Processed cheese is often sold in blocks and packs of individual slices, often separated by wax paper, or with each slice individually wrapped by machine. Processed cheese was initially sold in unpressurized cans; some is still sold this way.

United Kingdom
In the United Kingdom, processed cheese is typically sold in individually wrapped slices, often referred to as "singles", or in foil-wrapped portions. Dairylea and The Laughing Cow are leading brands.

United States
In 1916, Canadian James L. Kraft applied for the first U.S. patent for a method of making processed cheese. Kraft Foods Inc. developed the first commercially available, shelf-stable, sliced processed cheese; it was introduced in 1950. The first commercially available individually wrapped cheese slices were introduced in the US by Clearfield Cheese Co. in 1956. These forms of processed cheese have become ubiquitous in U.S. households ever since, most notably used for cheeseburgers and grilled cheese sandwiches because of its ability to cook evenly, distribute/stretch smoothly, and resist congealing, unlike traditional cheddar cheeses. Competitors lobbied unsuccessfully to require processed cheese be labeled "embalmed cheese".

The best known processed cheese in the United States is marketed as American cheese by Kraft Foods, Borden, and other companies. It is yellow or off-white, mild, has a medium consistency and melts easily. It is typically made from a blend of cheeses, most often Colby and cheddar. Another type of processed cheese created in the United States is Provel pizza cheese, which uses cheddar, Swiss, and provolone cheeses as flavorants. Provel cheese is commonly used in St. Louis-style pizza.

Legal definitions
The high proportion of additives in processed cheese and similar products (e.g. unfermented dairy products, emulsifiers, oils, salts, and colors) means that some products made in this way cannot legally be labeled as cheese in many countries, even though similar products containing a higher percentage of cheese can be.

In the United States, the term "processed cheese" refers to products with the highest cheese content, made from cheese, up to 5% milkfat, and other allowed additives. Terms such as "cheese food" or "cheese spread" refer to products with lower amounts of cheese. "Cheese product" is an unregulated term used by some manufacturers for products that do not meet any of the standards.

United States
[[File:Hickory Farms Product.jpg|thumb|A gift pack containing several varieties of labeled process cheese.

Upper left: a "pasteurized process cheese food" and a "pasteurized processed cheese spread"

Upper center: a "pasteurized process cheese spread Havarti-type flavor"

Lowermost right: a "pasteurized process cheese food with jalapeño peppers"]]

In the United States, processed cheese is defined, categorized, and regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations Title 21, Section 133 ("Cheeses and Cheese-Related Products"). Three of the main classes are:
 * Pasteurized process cheese (§133.169)
 * PPC is a product made from one or more cheeses (excluding certain cheeses such as cream cheese and cottage cheese, but including American cheese), mixed with emusifying salts.
 * Acceptable additives include acidifying agents, source of milkfat (cream, anhydrous milkfat, dehydrated cream), water, salt, artificial color, spices or flavorings (other than those simulating the flavor of cheese), and enzyme-modified cheese. PPC in consumer-sized packages can also include mold inhibitor and lecithin. Added milk fat must not exceed 5% by weight.
 * In the final product, moisture must not be more than 41 percent of the weight, and fat content not less than 49 percent. The moisture and fat contents must also fall into the acceptable range for its source cheese(s).

 * Pasteurized process cheese food (§133.173)
 * PPCF is made from one or more of the cheeses available for pasteurized process cheese composing not less than 51 percent of the final weight, mixed with one or more optional dairy ingredients such as cream, fluid milk, or whey.
 * Acceptable additives include emulsifying salts, acidifying agents, water, salt, artificial color, spices or flavorings (other than those simulating the flavor of cheese), and enzyme-modified cheese. PPCF in consumer-sized packages can also include mold inhibitor and lecithin.
 * The final solid form must be less than 44 percent moisture and have a fat content greater than 23 percent.

 * Pasteurized process cheese spread (§133.179)
 * PPCS is made similarly to pasteurized process cheese food but must be spreadable at 70 °F. Moisture must be between 44 and 60 percent of the total weight, and fat content greater than 20 percent. Nisin may be added.

Use of unregulated terms
The FDA does not maintain a standard of identity for either "pasteurized prepared cheese product", a designation which particularly appears on many Kraft products, or "pasteurized process cheese product", a designation which appears particularly on many American store- and generic-branded singles. Since by using undefined terms the manufacturers technically avoid being accused of false labeling, products carrying such labels are free to use milk protein concentrate (MPC) in their formulations, an ingredient the FDA does not permit in processed cheese. The desire to use inexpensive imported milk protein concentrate to replace some of the cheese in their products is noted as motivation for the manufacturers to introduce these and similar terms, and for the relabeling of some products. After an FDA Warning Letter protesting Kraft's use of MPC in late 2002, some varieties of Kraft Singles formerly labeled "pasteurized process cheese food" became "pasteurized prepared cheese product", Velveeta was relabeled from "pasteurized process cheese spread" to "pasteurized prepared cheese product", and Easy Cheese from "pasteurized process cheese spread" to "pasteurized cheese snack".

title: Processed cheese


text:
Talk:List of sutras

Hey, thanks for getting the "list of sutras" page started; I've been thinking we need something like that. However, I'm not sure it's a good idea to lump Hindu and Buddhist sutras together on one page. I was thinking of having a separate "Buddhist sutras and texts" page. That way, we could have a brief discussion of the different types of sutras, etc., followed by a list that could include not just sutras but links to any articles on vinaya, abhidhamma, shastras, tantras, the Blue Cliff Record, Shobogenzo, early Mahayana treatises, etc., etc., etc.  NYK 11:13, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Hmmm, after thinking about it here's what I would suggest. Why don't you create a Buddhist sacred texts page which doesn't focus on listing all the texts itself but rather talks about the types of texts, their inter-relationship, and how they are used in practice, recoginizing the varying practice by school perhaps.  This would be a fascinating article if you can write it (it's beyond my knowledge, I'm not an adherent).  The List of sutras page is nice on its own as it shows the span of sutras in one place.  Maybe I confused the issue by adding a few comments by each sutra suggesting how it relates to others.  It's nice to be able to see from horizon to horizon sometimes and the list-type pages do that.  Let me copy your and my comment over to the List of sutras page in case anyone else wants to join in.  technopilgrim 16:10, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Technopilgrim, thanks for the invite to have a look at this list. I already saw it right after it was posted--amazingly, I found nothing to add, correct, or delete!  Nice work!  In the future, you can post messages to me on my talk page and I will see them.
 * On a similar topic, I think a list of Buddhism topics would be beneficial to the wiki--could be linked from all said articles. Thoughts?  heidimo  15:52, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we should create a list of Buddhist sacred texts or even just Buddhist texts so that non-canonical things, including Tantras, commentaries, histories, etc can be added. Sacred, or Canonical texts could be a separate category if we wanted. We might also want to create a list of 'especially important' contempoary texts - that should provide a good bun fight :) mahābāla 17:27, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I still don't quite see the point of listing Hindu and Buddhist sutras together. I'm not aware of any significant overlap, i.e. a Hindu sutra that is also commonly used in Buddhism.  Since "sutra" in this context apparently just means a scripture, I suppose we could include the Daodejing, the Bible, etc., too.  Plus, now with "Vinaya" we've started including Buddhist texts that are not really sutras at all.  I'm just wondering if the category isn't a little confusing. - NYK 08:54, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * NYK, if I'm hearing you right you're worried about apples, oranges, and Vinaya showing on the same page and this causing confusion or being an illogical organization. With Vinaya perhaps I can agree with you (although a Google search will show the phrase "Vinaya Sutra" is not uncommon).  But the others on the list — they are all definitely sutras and if there is an article called List of sutras, these entries should be in it. It's not confusing to a visitor to this page to see both Buddhist and Hindu sutras on one page & I doubt he will ask "where is the Isaiah sutra?".  This page is more of a clearing house for things called sutras, not a page ordered around which sutras are canonical for a certain group — for canonical lists we rely on pages like Tibetan Buddhist canon. In terms of possible other ways to show lists of sutras, I don't think we want to replace this page with two pages according to religion ('List of Hindu sutras/List of Buddhist sutras').  The division between Hindu and Buddhist sutras is strong  but not completely hermetic.  Tantric Buddhism is rooted in tantric Hinduism and the practices described in the Yoga Sutras were subsequently observed by both Hindus and Tantric Buddhists. Hinduism sometimes lays claim to Buddhist scriptures, as mentioned in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Hindu_Scriptures.  So the cheat of putting everything on one page under two headings and then including some lawyerese on how the division is not absolute is actually a reflection of how it works (at least in some cases).  technopilgrim 00:31, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Seems to me that a "list of sutras" is a red herring which is why it is causing problems. It has introduced both an aritificial distinction, from sacred texts that are not sutras but which are vitally important to both Hinduism and Buddhism; and an aritificial unity, between Hindhu and Buddhist sutras. What we now have is a list of things that don't belong together, that aren't linked thematically, doctrinally, or even styalistically, but just happen to be called Sutra - Panini's 'sutra' is a grammar text-book for goddness sake! Let's just ditch this list, and put the texts along side the tradition with which they are associated. Have just looked at |Hindu Scriptures. The old Hindu fallacy that Buddhism is just an unorthodox version of Hinduism is alive and well I see. While it is a view, it is widely held to be incorrect. To say that Buddhism parted company with Hinduism over the issue of whether the Vedas are eternal or the products of the human mind is pure fantasy, and a view that I've never heard or read expressed in any other place. So the cross-over of Hindu and Buddhist sutras looks to me to be apocryphal. mahābāla 14:51, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * A few points:

 * I agree that its not a good idea to bunch Hindu and Buddhist Sutras

 * The Hindu Sutras have considerably less of a sacred nature than the Buddhist ones; the Ashtadhyayi is not out of place in the list

 * As for "To say that Buddhism parted company with Hinduism over the issue of whether the Vedas are eternal or the products of the human mind is pure fantasy, and a view that I've never heard or read expressed in any other place.", you are aware of course that most Hindus believe this? It was a central tenet of the (successful) anti-Buddhist campaign of Sankara and co. in India. It is one thing to say that it is factually/historically incorrect, and quite another to say that no one expresses it.

 * Further, the Hinduism article doesn't come off, to me at least, as advocating this point of view. The article discusses the Hindu view of what constitutes Hindu scripture, and therefore it is necessary to argue as Hindus would.

 * Arvindn 16:42, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I was not aware that most Hindus believe that the split between Buddhism and Hinduism revolved around the provinance of the vedas: I have never come across the idea in Buddhist circles, and have never come across the idea either in wider reading about, or in travelling though India, or in dsicussing thngs with Western 'Hindus'. So if most Hindus believe this, then are keeping pretty quiet about it. mahābāla 17:10, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I stick with 'most'. Go to a random Hinduism message board and look for discussions on Buddhism. -- Arvindn 11:37, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

what do we write about?
Arvindn writes: "It is one thing to say that it is factually/historically incorrect, and quite another to say that no one expresses it. "

 * The raises the question, which seems to come up again and again: what is it that the Wikipedia is trying to be? Is it a collection of all the views that have been expressed on a subject, or is it trying to be an authorative source of information about a subject? Because there does seem to be a difference, and I've struck this problem at least once before. mahābāla 17:10, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I thought its pretty obvious that its the former. That's the whole essence of NPOV, stated there (and in a lot of other places) with great clarity. There being no such thing as absolute objectivity, it is impossible for wikipedia or anyone else to achieve the latter. -- Arvindn 11:37, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Proposal: two pages
If combining both Hindu and Buddhist sutras on one page is mildly offensive to one side or the other, we could split the page into List of Buddhist sutras and List of Hindu sutras and cross-link them with See Also entries. That satisfies my original interest in helping the uninitiated reader understand roughly how many noteworthy sutras are out there. Is it 3? 30? 300?  etc. Will people sleep better at night if we do this? technopilgrim 18:02, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Nope. I have to repeat - this category is a non-category. A list of sutras doesn't make sense. I don't see any value at all in enumerating sutras - the fact that there are 50 million, or 5 makes absolutely no difference to understanding the traditions from which they come. I had thought that you were wanting to draw attention to the contents of the sutras, which was why I added to the list. This whole thing seems pretty pointless now - I think I'll run along and do other things. mahābāla 10:47, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I won't argue about Buddhist sutras, but I have no problem with List of Hindu sutras, and so the splitting is fine by me. -- Arvindn 11:37, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure that anyone finds combining different kinds of sutras together offensive, exactly, but I agree with Mahābāla that it is not a very meaningful category. On the other hand, there's no particular harm in having a list based on a somewhat irrelevant category.  I would propose to have a separate "Hindu sutras" page and a page for "Buddhist sutras and texts", which could include vinaya, tantras, and canonical or quasi-canonical commentaries (abhidhamma, shastras, etc.).  However, there is no reason that we can't have that page and this one to boot.  No size limit to Wikipedia. - NYK 13:06, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Have posted Buddhist texts. List of Sutras can stay where it is, I even linked to it, but it's waste of time imo. mahābāla 17:31, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Kama Sutra
Does the kama sutra belong here? it seems like it should be listed, but then again, i know nothing about the topic. is it like not a real sutra or something? Bonus Onus 23:34, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

There are hundreds of sutras including kama sutra that are real. These include Heart sutra, lotus sutra and Filial Piety Sutra to name but three of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.122.40.158 (talk) 17:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Kalpa Sutra
Shouldn't Kalpa sutra be included here too?

title: Talk:List of sutras


text: User talk:207.102.64.197

title: User talk:207.102.64.197


text:
United Nations Security Council Resolution 794

United Nations Security Council resolution 794, adopted unanimously on 3 December 1992, after reaffirming resolutions 733 (1992), 746 (1992), 751 (1992), 767 (1992) and 775 (1992), the Council "[expressed] grave alarm" regarding the situation in Somalia and authorised the creation of the Unified Task Force (UNITAF) to create a "secure environment for humanitarian relief operations in Somalia" in order to provide "essential for the survival of the civilian population". The current resolution determined that "the magnitude of human tragedy caused by the conflict in Somalia, further exacerbated by the obstacles being created to the distribution of humanitarian assistance [constitutes] a threat to international peace and security".

The Council once again, strongly condemned violations of international humanitarian law and demanded the cessation of all hostilities from all parties involved, urging them to co-operate with the Special Representative of the Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali and military, including allowing access by military personnel and humanitarian organisations to the affected population and to ensure their safety. It also authorised a further deployment of 3,500 personnel of the United Nations Operation in Somalia I (UNISOM I) created in Resolution 775 to Somalia and informing it should proceed at the discretion of the Secretary-General.

The resolution went on to endorse a recommendation by the Secretary-General that action should be taken under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter and welcomed offers by Member States concerning the creation of an operation to create a secure environment for humanitarian operations, that later became known as UNITAF. At the time of his report, disarmament and the problem of security was not resolved. The Council authorised such action to be taken by Member States, and appointed an ad hoc commission composed of members of the Security Council to report on the implementation of the current resolution.

Acting under Chapter VII and Chapter VIII, the Council urged states and agencies to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo against Somalia imposed in Resolution 733. Resolution 794 ended by requiring states participating in UNITAF and the Secretary-General to report regularly on the progress they are making in Somalia so that arrangements can be handed back over to UNISOM II.

Within days of passing the current resolution, on 9 December 1992, the first UNITAF troops arrived in the Somali capital, Mogadishu. It was the first Security Council resolution that authorised the use of force under Chapter VII to deliver humanitarian aid that was being obstructed by warlords, and the fourth major military engagement since the Cold War, following the invasion of Kuwait, the deployment of peacekeepers in Cambodia and a further deployment of peacekeepers in Yugoslavia.


text: User talk:195.195.7.61

title: User talk:195.195.7.61