text:
VF-1 Valkyrie

In the Macross Japanese anime series and its English adaptation Robotech, the first mass-produced transforming aerospace fighter mecha is called the VF-1 Valkyrie. The VF-1 Valkyrie is referred to as a "variable fighter" in Macross.

Background
The VF-1 was created between 1980 and 1982 by Japanese mecha designer Shoji Kawamori with contributions by his Studio Nue partner Kazutaka Miyatake. The VF-1 Valkyrie was to be the centerpiece mecha design for the anime series The Super Dimension Fortress Macross which aired between 1982 and 1983. The McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle and Grumman F-14 Tomcat with its variable-sweep wing design, served as the main design inspiration of the VF-1. When it came to naming "Valkyrie" was used as a tribute to the real world XB-70 Valkyrie, which was an experimental supersonic strategic bomber developed in the United States in the 1960s. The VF-1 was created entirely by Kawamori and Studio Nue.

Macross
In Macross, the VF-1 was developed by Stonewell/Bellcom/Shinnakasu for the U.N. Spacy by using alien Overtechnology obtained from the SDF-1 Macross alien spaceship. It was preceded into production by an aerodynamic proving version of its airframe, the VF-X. Unlike all later VF vehicles, the VF-X was strictly a jet aircraft, built to demonstrate that a jet fighter with the features necessary to convert to Battroid mode was aerodynamically feasible. After the VF-X's testing was finished, an advanced concept atmospheric-only prototype, the VF-0 Phoenix, was flight-tested from 2005 to 2007 and briefly served as an active-duty fighter from 2007 to the VF-1's rollout in late 2008, while the bugs were being worked out of the full-up VF-1 prototype (VF-X-1). The VF-1's combat debut was on February 7, 2009, during the Battle of South Ataria Island - the first battle of Space War I, and was the mainstay fighter of the U.N. Spacy for the entire conflict. Introduced in 2008, the VF-1 would be out of frontline service just five years later, replaced by the far more advanced VF-4 Lightning III. However, the fighter would continue to show its worthiness years later when, during the events of Macross 7, Milia Jenius (a major character in the original series) would use her old fighter in defense of the colonization fleet.

Robotech
In Robotech, development of the Valkyrie began at the end of the Global Civil War, when an alien spaceship crashed into Macross Island in the South Pacific. After learning of the existence of large aggressive humanoid aliens, a United Earth Government was formed and development began on the mecha by the Robotech Defense Force to combat the alien threat by using Robotechnology obtained from the SDF-1 alien ship.

In the "Robotech" continuity, the VF-0 did not exist; the non-transformable VF-X was followed by a version which had only fighter and Guardian mode. Not until June 2007 was the final version of the VF-1, which could transform into battloid mode, released. It unofficially saw its first combat in early 2007, when test pilot Roy Fokker "borrowed" the first production-model aircraft - a VF-1S that would remain his mount for the rest of his life, and become Rick Hunter's aircraft after his death - to thwart an Anti-Unification plot to destroy the three primary symbols of UEG power. Officially, the first combat of the VF-1 was, like Macross, February 7, 2009, during the Battle of Macross Island - the first battle of the First Robotech War. Much like its "Macross" counterpart, the VF-1 would remain in service for the remainder of the conflict.

Modes
The VF-1 is different from modern fighter aircraft in that it can transform into three different configurations or modes for different combat environments, and can perform the task of more than one fighting vehicle: In Fighter mode it can act as a jet fighter or a space fighter; in GERWALK (or Guardian in Robotech) mode it acts as a VTOL unit or a "chicken walker" mecha; in Battroid mode (or Battloid in Robotech) it acts as a humanoid mecha.

Fighter mode
The VF-1's Fighter mode is its basic mode and is the typical mode employed when the craft is parked at a military base and is the primary mode used in high altitude aerial combat planetside and in space combat.

In this mode, it features a basic fuselage similar to the real-world F-14 Tomcat jet fighter, including underslung intakes and variable-sweep wing, but with outward-canted vertical stabilizers similar to the F/A-18 Hornet's, swiveling under-wing hardpoints (last seen on the F-111 Aardvark, Su-24 Fencer, and Panavia Tornado), and a total lack of tailplanes. It is armed with 1, 2, or 4 (depending on model) Mauler RÖV-20 laser cannons mounted on a ventral turret, a GU-11 55mm three-barrelled gun pod holding 200 rounds, four underwing hardpoints holding up to twelve medium-range AMM-1 missiles, twelve Mk-82 LDGP bombs, six RMS-1 large anti-ship reaction missiles or four UUM-7 micro-missile pods containing up to 15 Bifors HMM-01 "micro-missiles". Like most of the VF-1's nomenclature, the "GU" and "AMM" designations of its weapons are references to current US military designations (GPU for Gun Pod Unit and AIM for Air Intercept Missile).

In fighter mode the VF-1's thermonuclear engines and the several vernier rockets on its fuselage make it capable of operating as an aerospace fighter. It can reach a maximum speed of Mach 3.87 at high altitude (above 30,000 m), and Mach 2.71 at medium altitude (10,000 m). Its wings, similar to those of the F-14 Tomcat, sweep between 20 degrees back and 72 degrees back. Unlike the F-14, the wings can sweep 90 degrees back for storage, with the tail module folding up over the fighter's back. Although the VF-1 technically has an unlimited service ceiling and atmospheric range (since it can operate in space), the VF-1's internal tanks cannot carry enough propellant to achieve a stable orbit and needs the help of a booster pack to reach Low Earth Orbit.

While in fighter mode, the VF-1 can also be equipped with a FAST (Fuel And Sensor Tactical) Pack space booster and weaponry system. This system vastly improves the speed and survivability of the fighter as well as giving it access to extra ammunition. The FAST pack isn't adapted for atmospheric use, due to its impact on a Valkyrie's aerodynamics and its weight; as such, it needs to be discarded before atmospheric entry. Contrary to the GBP-1S (see below), the FAST pack doesn't prevent transformation.

Fighter mode has two sub-modes:
 * In atmospheric mode the engine air intakes are open; wings geometry is flexible.
 * In space mode the engine air intakes are closed. Wings remain extended but fixed due to the presence of vernier thrusters on the wing tips, and wing-carried ordnance.

The shield that covers the cockpit in Battroid mode is usually absent, except on pilot's request for use as a heat shield, for example in case of atmospheric re-entry (seen performed in the original Macross series in episode 27).

GERWALK mode
In GERWALK (Ground Effective Reinforcement of Winged Armament with Locomotive Knee-joint) mode (called "Guardian Mode" in Robotech), the VF-1 looks like the nose and wings of a fighter plane stuck on "chicken walker" legs with two arms. The legs are formed by the aircraft's engines and intakes, bent down and forward. The arms are stored between the engines in fighter mode and fold out to the sides, reaching around from behind the legs. In GERWALK mode, the gun pod is held by the fighter's manipulator "hands" and acts in all respects as a very large automatic rifle. This mode is the intermediate one which was originally intended to simply allow the craft to land in a combat zone with a maximum of defensive ability. However, many pilots soon realized that this mode's considerable maneuverability combined with its speed made it formidable in low level aerial combat as well as when making flanking maneuvers on the ground, and most took advantage of these characteristics for such situations. Valkyrie pilots also have the option to deploy the legs alone, leaving the arms in storage.

According to an article in Animerica magazine, the form came about partially by accident. Early in the development cycle for Macross, the creators planned a main mecha called "GA-WALK", with an ostrich-like leg configuration (similar to the enemy battle pods from the finished series). However, the idea met with resistance from the initial sponsor, which wanted a more conventional robot for the hero to pilot. When creator Shoji Kawamori designed the transforming "Breast Fighters" (later redesigned and renamed the "VF-1 Valkyrie" fighters) instead, he had no real thoughts of a third mode. But when the manufacturer Takatoku Toys sent along the prototype of a Valkyrie toy for his input, the prototype's legs were not yet locked into place in Fighter mode, causing the legs to swing down. This was reminiscent to him of the discarded "GA-WALK" mecha idea that had been shot down early in pre-production. He liked the idea, and worked to incorporate the third mode, now renamed "GERWALK," into Macross. In GERWALK mode, the VF-1 has a maximum speed of 500 kph flying, 100 kph walking.

Battroid mode
In Battroid mode (called "Battloid Mode" in Robotech), the VF-1 looks like a fighter airplane folded up to resemble a 12.7-meter-tall (42-foot-tall) humanoid. The legs are now straight and bend in the normal direction; the sides of the nose now resemble a human chest and shoulders (where the arms attach), and the laser turret is now a head.

While the Battroid mode has some limited altitude control, its primary purpose is for ground hand-to-hand combat, which enabled Earth forces to fight the giant alien invaders on their own scale as the military had anticipated they would need. As shown in the original TV series, this mode allowed the humans to disguise their VF-1 as a Zentradi officer and to infiltrate one of their warships during a rescue operation. The VF-1 valkyrie in battroid mode is also much stronger than the average Zentradi soldier and is able to defeat them in unarmed combat with ease. However, the superior size, physical strength, endurance and resistance to space vacuum of Commander Type Zentradi makes them much more dangerous and equal opponents for the Valkyrie.

In Battroid mode, the VF-1 has a maximum airspeed of 220 kph. Its maximum running speed is 160 kph. In this mode, the Valkyrie can also be equipped with a reactive armor package called the GBP-1S Ground Battle Protector weapon system. Manufactured by Shinnakasu Heavy Industries this pack is armed with fifty-six 28 cm diameter Erlikon GH-32 Grenade Crusher high maneuverability micro-missiles (twenty-two mounted in two shoulder launchers, ten mounted in two chest launchers, sixteen mounted in side leg launchers, and eight mounted in rear leg launchers), eighteen Erlikon GA-100 Crusher high-speed armor-penetrating projectiles mounted in two lower arm launchers, and six Remington H-22T large hand grenades mounted on torso. This armor pack has to be ejected to allow the Valkyrie's transformation into GERWALK and Fighter modes.

Variants
The VF-1 Valkyrie is a variable geometry aerospace fighter built in four main variants). The four models differ slightly in engines, avionics, and armament:
 * VF-1A: a standard soldier's fighter. Has one laser cannon on its head.
 * VF-1D: a two-seat variant of the VF-1A. Has two lasers. (used as a trainer in Robotech).
 * VF-1J: a team leader/squadron commander's fighter. Has two lasers.
 * VF-1S: a squadron commander/Commander Air Group's fighter. Has four lasers.
 * VF-1R: a variation of the VF-1A as a mid-life upgrade to improve survivability. It features powerplant and armor upgrades, as well as an additional pulse cannon mounted as a third cannon on the head which will automatically target incoming missiles without pilot input and free up the pilot's mind for more important tasks. Originally thought to be an animation mistake in Episode 32, but Harmony Gold capitalized on it in the 2000s to introduce a new character (Jack Archer from the Robotech: Battlecry video game) and model.
 * VT-1: a two-seat unarmed primary trainer (Macross only).
 * There are several less frequently used variants.

Macross variants
Information listed here is only canon for the Macross'' continuity. This list is incomplete.''

Robotech variants
Models referenced here are only from the Robotech'' continuity. This list is incomplete.''

Takatoku Toys/Bandai
In 1983, Takatoku Toys released a range of Macross toys. Their first release was the 1/55 VF-1 Battroid Valkyrie, which was the first fully transformable replica of the VF-1. The toy was licensed by Hasbro for release in their markets as part of the Transformers toyline, and was retooled to become the character Jetfire. Due to Hasbro licensing the toy, Matchbox was unable to release it as part of the Robotech toyline (instead, Matchbox opted to release a semi-transformable version scaled to fit a 3 3/4" action figure with the Valkyrie/Veritech's proportions selectively compressed). Takatoku released the smaller 1/100 VF-1S Battroid Valkyrie later in the same year. In 1984, Bandai acquired the molds of the Valkyrie toy from Matsushiro Toys (which had obtained them from a bankrupt Takatoku Toys months prior) and used them as the basis for a new range. To coincide with the release of the film Macross: Do You Remember Love?, Bandai released the 1/55 Hi-Metal VF-1A Valkyrie with the newer paint scheme used by Hikaru Ichijyo. This was followed in the same year by the VT-1 Super Ostrich and VE-1 ELINT Seeker, as well as the VF-1S Strike Valkyrie.

Throughout the years, Bandai has reissued the 1/55 VF-1 Valkyrie toy line in Japan during anniversary celebrations of the Macross franchise - most recently in 2008 as part of Macross's 25th anniversary and the launch of Macross Frontier.

In 2010, Bandai released an all-new transformable 1/100 VF-1 Valkyrie toy under their VF Hi-Metal line.

Yamato Toys/Arcadia
In 2001, Yamato Toys released their 1/60 VF-1 Valkyrie line. Two years later, they unveiled their 1/48 scale Valkyrie, which went into production until 2007 with limited reissues in 2010. In 2008, Yamato used design and engineering cues from the 1/48 line to release newer versions of their 1/60 line. An unpainted, unassembled kit version of their 1/60 VF-1S Valkyrie was released in 2010. This kit is targeted to collectors who are into customizing their Valkyrie collection.

In 2009, Yamato Toys released their Valkyrie Battroid figures on their GN-U Dou line to compete with Kaiyodo's Revoltech figures. Despite being non-transformable, these figures boast exceptional articulation and poseability.

In 2013, Yamato Toys was restructured into Arcadia. The company is in the process of reissuing their 1/60 VF-1 Valkyrie replicas.

Toynami
In 2002, Toynami released a Robotech Masterpiece Collection range of products. Included in this range was a series of fully transformable VF-1 models in collector's packaging. Following the end of the Macross Saga of the Masterpiece Collection, Toynami released 1/100 scale VF-1 toys in 2006 that were marketed as Macross toys rather than Robotech toys. This lineup also included the Do You Remember Love? variants. These toys were released mainly for the North American market.

Kaiyodo
Kaiyodo released a series of VF-1 Valkyrie Battroid figures on their Revoltech line in 2006. Despite not being transformable, these figures boast extreme points of articulation and poseability. Transformable versions of the Revoltech VF-1 Valkyrie figures were released in early 2010. These figures are currently being offered in the United States by Harmony Gold USA through Robotech.com.

ThreeZero
ThreeZero planned to release the fully transformable VF-1J figure as part of Robo-Dou line under license from Harmony Gold USA and Crunchyroll.

Model kits
During the run of the original Macross series, model kits of the VF-1 Valkyrie were released in Japan by Arii, Imai, and Nichimo. Most of these were non-transformable and required glue and paint to assemble, but variable types were also released in 1/100 and 1/72 scale. These transformed into all three modes, but required swapping the front fuselage for Battroid mode. Many of these kits were imported into the U.S. by Revell under the Robotech Defenders line. When Imai went out of business, the molds of their Macross model kits were acquired by Bandai, who reissued the kits throughout the 1990s. In 1999, Arii released the 1/24 scale VF-1S Valkyrie fighter kit, which is the largest scale replica of the Valkyrie to date.

In 2001, Big West commissioned Hasegawa Corporation to manufacture new 1/72 model kits of the VF-1. As Hasegawa's products are geared towards more experienced modelers, their Valkyrie kits are very accurately detailed. Since the VF-1, Hasegawa has released kits of variable fighters from most of the other Macross series as well.

In 2013, Bandai released an all-new 1/72 scale transforming kit of the VF-1 Valkyrie to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Macross. Unlike previous transforming kits, this model is capable of perfect transformation without the need of swapping parts. In addition, the transformation to Battroid mode utilizes retractable actuators that are accurate to the original line art.

title: VF-1 Valkyrie


text:
Talk:PvP (webcomic)

(Untitled discusion)
This page needs an external link to the actual strip. jaknouse 02:49, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I thought the same thing, so I did it. -Branddobbe 22:11, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * This article needs to explain why Brent is attacked by a Panda occasionally. It also needs to include something about Skull's comment "ale and whores," (with appropriate link) because this is a popular one liner that is often quoted.  It should also say something about the many controversies that Kurtz has attracted/generated, as this comes up when people talk about his place in the online comic field.--Zhafnium 08:25, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ale and Whores comic is from 11Nov1999: http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=19991111 -Wade July 6, 2005

Added a mention of Miranda, Jade's sister. Also included a note about Scott's Dad. Also included the information about the comic book version published by Image Comics. --Zhafnium 03:58, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Panda Attacks
Does this article really need that many external links to the panda attacks? I think that people will get the idea simply from reading the text of the article and maybe from viewing two or three links. I think that you went a little overboard there. --Slung 19:36, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

After Hours
What the heck was After Hours? Can it get a mention here?

Scott Kurtz
The link to Scott Kurtz in the opening paragraph simply redirects back to the page. Is there enough information on him to warrant his own page, or would a better solution be to simply remove the link?

 * I think he definitely deserves his own page. Kurtz frequently is at the center of a good many controversies (the Spells and Whistles incident comes to mind) that aren't directly tied to the comic. Gundato

Scott should be included as one of the characters, he is frequently seen in the strip addressing the audience or having conversation with his father!

Kurtz's life
Kurtz was born on March 15, 1971, in Watsonville, California. He later moved to West Des Moines, Iowa, where he attended Western Hills Elementary School and Stillwell Junior High. He showed an early talent for art, reading about and drawing comic book superheroes voraciously at an early age. He also showed a penchant for video and role playing games as early as 6th grade. At age 14, he moved to Bedford, Texas, and attended Trinity High School in Euless, Texas. After high school, he attended The University of North Texas, in Denton, where for a short time he drew a comic strip called "Captain Amazing" for the school paper. He dropped out of UNT before earning a degree.

Before achieving success with PvP, Kurtz worked at a sign studio and printshop, as a customer service representative via phone for computer hardware and software, and as an IT representative for a radio station.

Kurtz and his wife and pets currently live in Little Elm, Texas, a suburb of the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

(I'll let someone else more knowledgeable about Wikipedia add this text if you feel it's relevant to the article. This information call all be verified by Kurtz.)
 * Personally I think it's pretty irrelevant, as Kurtz is not notable for much aside from PvP. --Kizor 21:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, he is one of the "big popular webcomics types" because of PvP, so contextualizing him wouldn't necessarily be bad, but unless it comes from a pre-existing source, such information counts as original research, which he prohibited. I've seen bits on his page about his Captain Amazing but I didn't know he dropped out, for example, and I'd want to make sure that was published somewhere else before we published it. --Fastfission 02:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe Kurtz does deserve at least his own paragraph inside the PvP article, since most webcomic artists do have articles. Though other webcomic artists (Such as the Penny-Arcade guys have done other things than just webcomics, more significant things to be precise (PAX, Childs Play). Kurtz needs some extra credit here. --AARST (Not logged in currently) 15 August 2006
 * We're in the process of merging and redirecting most of the webcomic artist articles into their respective webcomic articles. Most webcomic artist articles are permastubs that often violate WP:BLP. I'd suggest adding to this article whatever biographical information on this author is verifiable in reliable sources. If we find out later that there is a wealth of reliably sourced, verifiable biographical info worth branching into another article,then we can deal with that, but creating a new article that will have to be merged back here in a few weeks sounds like a waste. -- Dragonfiend 21:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of humor
As for my addition to the wiki, here's an external link to PvP's official forums in which Scott admits the changes and states he's not going back. For anyone unaware, he's the poster PvP. --Gillespee 23:41, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Sadly, due to weekly forum purges, said post no longer exists. But it was there once.--Gillespee 20:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Controversies
Kade is right about the "Jesus Christ endorses gayness" contreversy, when was the last time we heard about that? But when was the last time we heard about the "Graphamaximo" controversy? Is there something that makes one more worthy of inclusion than others? I know they both made a lot of people mad, but people seem to have simmered down about both.--Gillespee 22:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

No one objected, so it's done.--Gillespee 05:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Just as a note: I'm completely unaware if the Graphamaximo thing did raise some hackles...but I do know for certain that the only outcry I witnessed from the PvP Jesus Christ strip was a 60-page long thread on the official forums, nothing else.  Plus, I know that he's practically built his reputation on saying outlandish stuff that riles everyones nerves.  Is there a possibility that the person who got annoyed by it was Scott McCloud? Kade 02:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

PvP in newspapers
From the article:
 * At the 2004 San Diego Comicon, Kurtz announced that he would offer to newspapers the entire PvP series to reprint for free [5], but only if the strips were reprinted without any changes made. Kurtz said he made this offer because of his dissatisfaction with the terms offered to cartoonists by syndicates. As of yet no major American newspaper has agreed to pick up his strip, even though it is free.

Kurtz reports on his website in October of 2004 that the Kansas City Star ran PvP 1. I don't know the whole history behind his offer, or if any other papers have picked ever up the strip, but the above paragraph is provably false. Perhaps someone with more background can help out? Dan 05:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

What if we changed the last sentence to say something like, "Few major American newspapers ran PvP." It seems like there was some success to this, but not the Syndicate Busting response Scott envisioned.--Gillespee 17:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * "Few major American newspapers ran PvP" seems incorrect, if the truth is that one newspaper ran the comic on a limited basis for a brief period of time. My recollection was that for a very brief time the Kansas City Star ran one PvP comic once per week in their weekly tech section, but would often drop it due to supposed "lack of space." I've changed the article to read "As of yet no major American newspaper has agreed to regularly pick up his strip, even though it is free. One newspaper, The Kansas City Star, briefly attempted to run one PvP comic per week in the fall of 2004." -- Dragonfiend 18:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

And didn't the writer of Non-Sequitor made attacks against Scott Kurtz in a few of his comics?

Vandalism to this article
There's an IP-hopping vandal who likes to post personal attacks on Scott Kurtz here, mostly involving his weight. He seems to be connecting from Columbus, Ohio and Ohio State University. He's been warned sufficiently, so I will block him on sight whenever he vandalizes this article. If you are not an admin and notice one of his edits, go ahead and warn him, then leave a message on my talk page and I'll deal with him. You might also want to leave a message on WP:AIV whenever he shows up. –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 23:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Eisner Award
PvP won an Eisner. Should this be noted? JONJONAUG 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * This was noted in the article on 23 July '06! --Ninevah 22:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Prove that Francis Ottoman does NOT collect ponies and is not a total gaylord
I'm shocked that a Wikipedian would be so pretentious as to try and accuse someone of vandalism for simply updating a Wiki with info inputted by an author. By interpreting this as vandalism the person (( [SirGrant] )) has apparently claimed he knows more about PvP than the author of the comic, Scott Kurtz! I have cited my sources, which come straight from the horses mouth himself, and he accuses me of making a joke edit? I have cited my sources. He has not, he is simply banking on his status as a Wikipedian and self-appointed gatekeeper of knowledge. Refute my sources, Mr. Grant. If you try to remove my concretely proven entry then I shall have no choice but to NPOV this article.

68.88.201.13 02:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh, grow up already. If you are going to vandalize Wikipedia then you might as well come up with something creative, rather than just copying what someone else suggests. It is so completely dull that whenever someone encourages people to vandalize Wikipedia then everyone just hustles along like a little sheep. I'm sure that Scott Kurtz does not intend that people actually vandalize Wikipedia, and would rather that you just savor the actual joke of the strip rather than trying to make a dull parody of it on here. If you turkeys keep it up we'll just protect the article for a few days. (Mind you, I am a regular PvP reader and have nothing against Kurtz or the comic.) --Fastfission 02:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * For the record, Scott Kurtz has said the following:

Somehow the wiki page for PvP is locked because of suspected vandalism.

''I think that somebody just updated Francis' entry with what Marcy wrote. Which I think should stand. Especially if it links back to that strip.''

Does anyone know who I can email at Wikipedia to request that? source

So the guy who wrote it thinks that it ought to stay changed. I have expressed a preference for appending Marcy has suggested that Francis' Wikipedia entry should read "collects statues of ponies and is a total gaylord." --Superluser 04:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Read what your source said "Wikipedia is susceptable to vandles for example frances entry is all wrong it should read..." clearly indicating that she is vandalising his article so I was removing what is clearly vandalism of frances entry SirGrant 02:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

on the one hand, this is an encyclopaedia, and should be moderately mature, i agree, but we need not be completely dry and humourless -- espescially in an article about a webcomic; what is, whilst being other things aswell, fundementally a funny.

including 'is a total gaylord and collects ponies' in the article with a refference would be good, imo, for the following reasons:

 * is funny/interesting. including a 'vandalism' in an article about PVP that cites a PVP episode about wikipedia, that shows a charector putting that vandalism on this wikipedia entry.

 * its relevent. its actually a valid comment on wikipedia: we all know that wikipedia both benifits and suffers from the fact that anyone can edit it.

 * it's an interesting piece of trivia: wikipedia got mentioned in PvP. a bit wikipedia centric, yes, but then this is wikipedia.

Also, when this was done before, the refference made it into the article:

FoxTrot article, in refference to this strip.

"In one strip, he says that he likes Wikipedia, posting a picture of Paige under the warthog and rabies articles, a feat which fans of the strip imitated."

Penny_Arcade_(comic) article, in refference to strip.

"Penny Arcade satirizies Wikipedia with a hypothetical scenario of Skeletor vandalizing the He-Man article"

"in the news post for the day of the comic shown above, Tycho explained his criticisms of Wikipedia and why he does not trust it."

So, refferensing the strip in the article definately would be consistant.

My vote is to whack something like this onto the end of the fransis entry:

(is a total gay lord who collects ponies --marcy 22:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC))

and then having something like this at the end of marcy's entry:

Kurtz comments on wikipedias simultanious benifit and suffering from the fact that anyone can edit it in one strip, that portrays marcy as defasing this PvP wikipedia article, changing fransis' entry to read 'is a total gaylord who collects ponies' (the edit can be seen above).

--DakAD 23:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Francis is not a total gaylord or collects ponies! He is a total nerd! He is my favorite and there is nothing you can do to stop me from wearing my Francis shirt proudly! I represent the fans that are as shy as I am! I say that we, we the nerds, shal speak up in the name of a teenager just like us is treated with the correct respect of a nerd! I AM PROUD TO ARGUE THAT FRANCIS IS NOT A TOTAL GAYLORD! I HATE ALL THAT SAY HE IS! HE IS NOT! I AM MAPLESTORYGRRL!

––MapleStoryGrrl 9:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Protected
Because enough PvP readers cannot resist simply enjoying Scott's comics and instead have to try and uncreatively act them out in real life (see the August 12 comic), I've semi-protected the page from new user editing. Sorry for the inconvenience, it will be lifted after a few days. Regular editors who try to vandalize the article do so at the risk of being blocked. --Fastfission 02:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * [Insert fair-use "Owned" graphic here] Good catch, Fastfission. Immediately after I read the comic, I came here full of dread, only to see that I wasn't the only one. ;) —BorgHunter (talk) 03:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

On the PVP forums Scott mentions that he would like Francis's bio to be updated with the new info, especially if it links back to the comic.
 * That sounds like WP:VANITY to me. -- Dragonfiend 04:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I would like to point out that this was most likely a counter to the argument that "This isn't what Scott Kurtz would have wanted," and not the argument "This is what Scott Kurtz wants, now do it because he is a god!" --Superluser 05:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * True enough, which makes it very disappointing. I thought higher of him. Perhaps he doesn't understand Wikipedia or respect it. I thought he would be a bit more progressive in his thinking about what the internet can do (especially since he has spent so much time deflecting flack from people who think that webcomics are just a fad), but I was wrong about that. --Fastfission 20:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So he does. Doing so would be a bit funny, but it'd be more appropriate in the "Trivia" section. Wikipedia mentions in webcomics are generally placed there. --Kizor 05:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We'll think about it after a few days when it is no longer fresh. I've no problem in putting references like this in, once it is obviously not just a plan to enact something silly from the comic itself. --Fastfission 20:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure he understands the context of what everyone was doing. It wasn't a cited, referenced, "Marcy says BLAH," it was just "BLAH." A referenced link to the comic might be appropriate, but I don't think it's really notable enough for inclusion either. And I'm still certain that Scott does not want his readers vandalizing Wikipedia. —BorgHunter (talk) 05:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * On a scale of one to User:Stephencolbert, this is a rather benign mention of Wikipedia. Compare to: Penny Arcade, FoxTrot. Regarding the statement itself it should go in Marcy's section, if at all: WP:SELF. Nifboy 06:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Kurtz on this subject
http://www.imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=19021&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

"Somehow the wiki page for PvP is locked because of suspected vandalism.

I think that somebody just updated Francis' entry with what Marcy wrote. Which I think should stand. Especially if it links back to that strip.

Does anyone know who I can email at Wikipedia to request that?"

 * You know, it occurs to me that if Kurtz really wanted Francis' Wikipedia section to mention that he collects statues of ponies, as the sole creator of PvP canon he could simply draw a strip showing that Francis does, in fact, collect statues of ponies.

 * Then he should do that. But when it's clearly a joke, and one predicated on vandalizing Wikipedia, then I don't think we should treat it too seriously. I think it would be pretty silly for him to make his creative decisions based around what his Wikipedia entry says. --Fastfission 19:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Total Gaylord"
This can easily be entered as one of the running gags - Marcy is constantly slamming Francis in various ways.

 * When the dust settles on all of this then we can decide whether or not that particular phrase is useful for describing this. The goal here is to make a useful and correct entry, though, not to enact self-referential jokes from the strip. --Fastfission 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like it's going to be an actual storyline, so this might go on for a while. I do think the full-protect should be removed, though. Nifboy 03:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think the full protect should be lifted because since tihs is going to be a storyline I think we should wait until the storyline is completed until we enter the information because it seems like it's gonna be changing on a day to day basis as more comics come out. Cause this seems to be a jab at the blocked page I think unlocking it will open all sorts of vandalism I think we should just wait until the dust settles and onec the storyline is complete I'm sure all the information will be cleared and we can put it up as deemed fit cause if we put it up as kurtz puts it up we are only painting an incomplete pictureSirGrant 04:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not so concerned about the maybe two sentences that will ultimately be added because of this; I just don't think we should explicitly discourage all editing during a time when a large number of eyes are on this article; let's face it, it's start-class, it could use a lot of improvement. Nifboy 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I think keeping it protected sends a nice message to those who actually think that Wikipedia is just a playground for vandals. Kurtz does not appear to know much about how Wikipedia works himself ("submit a ticket to the Wiki mods"? I know that it is unreasonable to project total logic onto comic characters at the expense of a joke, but at least the basic approach could be done correctly, i.e. "report you to a Wiki administrator" or something like that. "Submit a ticket to the Wiki mods" sounds to someone who knows anything about Wikipedia as jarring as someone saying "I will un-load that e-file that you sent me!" would to someone who was computer literate. I mean, I don't expect him to have Francis just editing back his own page, or insisting the material be removed as both irrelevant and unverifiable, or to know that you won't get banned indefinitely for one minor vandalism, but it would only take a minute or two to get the right language right).--Fastfission 14:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "Submit a ticket to the Wiki mods" is a reference to WoW. - Fëaluinix 14:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, whatever the outcome, I'm forced to note that this is getting more and more interesting. --Kizor 04:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What about semi-protection for the time being because that would at least keep random vandles out but still allow for meaningful edits SirGrant 05:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added a html comment to the Francis section, that will hopefully will slow down some of the vandalism that will occur because of the current PVP storyline. I tried to word it as neutral and clear as possible, but I would appreciate someone looking at it, and tell me if it is well worded and a good idea. --Codemonkey 07:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys, I should point out that there isn't really a source for Francis collecting ponies. This is something that only Marcy seems to know, so it constitutes original research on the part of Marcy. And the fact she thinks this makes Francis a gaylord is Marcy's WP:POV. --Pc13 09:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In today's strip (14 Aug) Francis has confirmed the collection. However, I agree it is trivial and likely part of a small story arc that can be ignored. The same arguments are constantly going on for Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater) and Characters of 8-Bit Theater. — RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 11:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Suitecannes
I'm just thinking, should Suitecannes even be on the list of minor characters? After all, her only existance was in 1 strip, and there's no sign that she'll be returning. I find it odd that a 1 strip character is in the list, while Ricky Tuttle, who's been in the strip as a major part of at least a couple of plotlines, isn't. Ruduen 01:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * For Suitecannes, I think she was in a run of about a week way back when. For Tuttle, go fer it!. — RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 12:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No controversies
Wow. No mention of any of the controversies sparked by Kurtz and his asshole-like behavior. I can count at least the S&W incident, the cover art incident, the "Jesus endorses Gays" incident, the "I will not shake hands" incident (written off as a joke but it still sparked a lot of discussion), the numerous attacks he's made on Penny Arcade (now reconciled) and later on CAD... Maybe all this should be included. --Energman 15:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I only read the comic, ignoring all the stuff around it. Feel free to add it, but, Jimbo has said, "... it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." — RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 16:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not, but right now the article only says "Scott Kurtz is controversial" and offers nothing else to back it up. There should be some example in here to show that he's earned that or you may as well take even that sentence out because it's unsourced.Rebochan 13:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Broken Links
Seems recent changes in how the PvP archive works has made most of the links to example strips in this article point to nothing. -- Logotu 22:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Corrected. Odd that it wasn't done sooner.  —Tamfang 07:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

 * And with yet another change to the website, Kurtz breaks all the archive links again! Anybody have time to go through and change them all? -- Logotu (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Isn't this what 301 http codes are for...? Rawling 4851 21:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

 * There are more broken links, unfortunately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.176.233 (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ambulance Running Gag
I just added a running gag to the list, the one about ambulances showing up in the last panel, but since I'm not from an english speaking country I fear I might have spelled something wrong, can anyone check it for me? Bill Gama 21:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Spelling is accurate; style is a bit awkward but I see no obvious way to improve it. —Tamfang 06:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Innapropriate?
This seems to be mostly a running gag and character list - granted, major characters should have mention, but that many minor characters?

And could there please be a section on reception, criticism, or controversy, especially if Scott Kurtz is going to be merged with this (since I've seen others complain about his arrogance, and he has done a good bit of jerky things, like the CAD premium thing)? Right now it seems like something that should be on comixpedia, not wikipedia. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Top Importance?
I hardly think that this "Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia," why does it have a top importance template. It should really be Mid and maybe High if you want to push it. While it may be important PvP is not quite as relevent to the culture as a whole as some of the other top importance comics articles, say Superman or Spiderman.

I beleive this should be changed to a mid importance template. HuckbeinMK3 (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I politely disagree. Whenever there is a large gathering in the comics industry (eg comicon), Scott Kurz and PVP represent a major component of the webcomic portion of that industry. Scott is one of the most sought after panelists and speakers on webcomics, and PVP led the entire industry in proving a webcomic model that made money without being backed by a huge syndication. Superman and Spiderman may have a longer historical background, but PVP and Scott certinaly have had a huge run this decade and have significantly impacted a huge internet audience and proven a working independant webcomic business model.  Any encyclopedia that includes the internet age must have Scott Kurtz and PVP included.

 * If your criteria is only the published comic book industry in the 20th century, you might have a point, but the comics industry in the last decade has moved far beyond that with movies, webcomics, merchandise, graphic novels, anime - attending any major comic convention (again, comicon) in this last decade would have made this abundantly clear. Scott Kurtz and PVP belong exactly where they are. Timmccloud (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 * (from the talk page of Phil Sandifer )
 * I'm curious - would you please explain your reasoning for re-rating PVP from TOP to High? There should be at least one Webcomic of top importance in the Comics list, and by any stretch of the imagination, PVP Online is that comic. Please see my reasoning in the discussion above; I feel your edit is misplaced, and you may only be considering "print" comics in your judgement, wheras webcomics are considered a significant part of the comics industry in this day and age. I look forward to hearing your input on this issue, either here, my talk page, or in the article discussion section.  I am dissapointed though that you did not discuss your change first when there is an already existing discussion on the issue. Timmccloud (talk) 22:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I think anybody looking at the history of my contributions on Wikipedia would be hard-pressed to call me anti-webcomic, and I must say, I resent the accusation. I downgraded PvP to high importance for a couple of reasons. First, although I think webcomics are tremendously important, they're still a new medium, and it's difficult to say that any of them have reached top importance. As it stands the only comic strips of the 1980s on to be top importance is Calvin and Hobbes. I'd consider putting The Far Side and maybe Bloom County on that list, but even if you expanded to the next obvious tier - Foxtrot and Dilbert - you're still miles from PvP in terms of measurable cultural impact.

 * Which leaves you with historical impact. PvP is not the most successful webcomic (that's probably Penny Arcade, which I also downgraded). It's not the first one to jump to print (that's Helen, Sweetheart of the Internet, which is of unranked importance). It's a very interesting recent development in comics nonetheless - important enough, in fact, that I have no problem putting it in the high importance category (and I have trouble getting to a dozen webcomics I'd do that with - PvP, Penny Arcade, Diesel Sweeties, Hutch Owen, and American Elf are the only shoo-ins I can think of). But I do not think, if we were picking 100 articles on comics for a print encyclopedia (where space is a premium) that PvP would make it. It wouldn't even be the first webcomic I'd pick, honestly - I think by any measure that one would have to be Penny Arcade. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you Phil, youv'e answered my question with thought and reasoning - The last couple edits to do the same did not provide reasoning, and all I really wanted was the edit backed by something other than "just 'cause i wanna". Thanks again!  I would like to take a moment then, by your reasoning, to propose one of two things.  If there are no webcomics of top importance, then either Talk:Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards and Talk:Webcomic need to be removed from the "Top Importance Comics" catagory, or you should follow your reasoning that both PVP and Penny Arcade should be re-rated as Top, at the very least for consistancy sake since the subject is considered top importance.  I would like to take the opportunity to make the argument that in the comics industry, webcomics are the most significant change in the medium in at least 50 years, and even though they do not make the numbers of the classic print comics.  Generalizing the issue - because of restrictive censorship on the sunday comics page, and the difficutly in getting into mainstream printed comics - the only comics medium that can push the boundries of the art right now is the uncensored self published webcomic.  This would not be the first broad catagory in our encyclopedia that has a minority topic which deserves some extra "pushing" in order for the encylopedia to represent the topic in a thurough and holistic manner.  I have no plans to revert your edit because you have laid out a reasoned and appropriate justification, but I would beg you to reconsider PVP and possible add Penny Arcade to the Top importance catagory.  Thank you Phil. Timmccloud (talk) 12:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I'll think about it - as it stands my inclination is to leave only webcomic in the top importance category - I agree with you that webcomics are a significant development in comics history, but I think it's too soon to identify ones that are as important as the other comics in the top importance category. But I'm currently going through the high importance category, and will do mid importance next, and when I have a better sense of what's where I may reconsider. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Drop me a line when you have finished your classification review, I would be interested in the results of your work and what insights that gives you after your are done.Timmccloud (talk) 15:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Broken Links
Many of the citations on the website to older strips have had their links broken due to a redeisgn of the PVP website, and need to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.10.4 (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ive managed to find a few, the sites being re-done so its bound to happen. Ill fix as needed. 124.182.52.116 (talk) 11:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

Request for comment on articles for individual television episodes and characters
A request for comments has been started that could affect the inclusion or exclusion of episode and character, as well as other fiction articles. Please visit the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction). Ikip (talk) 11:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hai! u calld?
Just curious, isn't about time to add Lolbat to the list of recurring characters? 86.95.212.91 (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup
Can someone manage that? Much of the article is bloated in length and full of POV slop that any reader would be ashamed of, let alone an editor. 66.41.18.1 (talk) 22:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Dragon magazine
I have a number of Dragon magazines from the early 2000s with PvP strips on the subject of D&D reproduced therein. I don't have the entire archive of issues, so I can't make a substantial contribution on this score to the article, but if someone could include them it would be good. Lstanley1979 (talk) 08:10, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

incorrect references for Bulldog and Cooch
Bulldog and Cooch references are screwed up - the links lead to completely unrelated comics —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fry-kun (talk • contribs) 21:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Jade Fontaine
Jade is listed at http://www.pvponline.com/new-readers/ as Jade Fontaine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.188.173 (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Fancruft
The character bios are massively fancruftical - they should ideally be a few sentences each at most, not several paragraphs. The level of detail fails WP:TRIVIA. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Site has vanished
The URL of the webcomic (www.pvponline.com) now leads to a "Domain for sale" site. Does anyone have any information where the webcomic has gone to? Zornfalke (talk) 10:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This info was what I came here seeking... :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.203.223 (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on PvP. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070125010558/http://www.pvponline.com/newspro/archives/arc7-2006.html to http://www.pvponline.com/newspro/archives/arc7-2006.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061104023726/http://www.pvponline.com/blog/2877/she-said to http://www.pvponline.com/blog/2877/she-said
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927040841/http://www.evilavatarradio.com/audio/EAR.Episode16.ScottKurtz.mp3 to http://www.evilavatarradio.com/audio/EAR.Episode16.ScottKurtz.mp3

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 00:04, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Updating quality ranking
I have upgraded this article to a C-quality ranking. The definition for C-quality articles is: "The article is substantial but is still missing important content or contains much irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant problems or require substantial cleanup." I think that's an accurate description here. It is substantial, containing most of what people would want to know. However, it would benefit greatly from information drawn from more independent coverage, such as reviews of the comic. The character biographies also need clean-up, to be more concise, up to date, and based as much as possible on secondary sources. HenryCrun15 (talk) 23:21, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Status of Reboot
The article mentions that a reboot happened in May 2020, but going through the strips finds an interlude Kurtz made about caring for his sick father, and then in late 2021 it returned to the old character ages with a COVID related plot line. I’ve been unable to find anything about this change, other than a tweet where Kurtz refers to it as a “PVP classic” upload. Should the reboot be labeled as over? Or should there be an official word first? I spent about an hour looking today and was unable to find any forum post, blog post, tweet, etc saying anything firmly one way or the other 2600:1700:1430:D740:2CD3:EC54:2BFA:4A56 (talk) 01:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there are very few secondary sources on the recent activities of PvP. There was coverage of the timeskip in 2020, but I haven't found any coverage of the Mort series or the timejumpback. (I did find this article on a spinoff, Table Titans.) I would recommmend that this article notes that the time skip ended, citing the PvP webpage, and marks this with a "secondary source needed"-style tag. HenryCrun15 (talk) 02:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Video game webcomic
Just a question, is calling PVP a video game webcomic still accurate? Appreciate it used to be, but hasn't really been about gaming for a while. Perhaps it's just a plain old webcomic now? 92.236.229.87 (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

 * I think it's fair to call it a video game webcomic because of it's roots as a video game webcomic and as the comic that arguably began the whole video game comics craze. In my view, I think of it as less of a descriptor of what the webcomic is about and more of a genre of webcomics that share roots, and PvP does belong in that discussion.
 * Especially looking at the history of it, it may make the most sense to keep it as a "video game web comic" for clarity reasons, imo. Wherewasmybrain (talk) 04:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:PvP (webcomic)


text:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive/WikiProject UK subdivisions/English districts

This has been updated and can now be found at WP:UKDISTRICTS

Braintree
Well, it looks like you're doing a lot of work here, so well done there, but I'm not sure this is all right, is it? How many districts in England are actually known by the same name as their main town? I found an article at Braintree (district) just now. Who calls the Braintree district "Braintree"? I live in the Braintree district, but I don't consider myself as living in Braintree. I moved the page to Braintree District, as I thought that seemed a more appropriate name (cf. "Braintree District Council"). Perhaps the same should be done for the other places...? -- Oliver P. 02:54, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The district is called Braintree, or maybe District of Braintree. Calling it Braintree District or Braintree district is incorrect.  The council is called Breiantree District Council, but this doesn't mean that its called Braintree District, only that it _is_ a District.  Leicester City Council doesn't administer Leicester City.  Morwen 23:39, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean by "incorrect" in this context? If you're happy calling the district the "District of Braintree", we can call it that, although if you do a Google search, you'll find plenty of people calling it "Braintree District" or "Braintree district" as well. (Braintree District Council itself describes its website as "The official Council website for Braintree district".) "Braintree" without further qualification just means the town. The villages surrounding Braintree are not (well, maybe occasionally) described as being in Braintree, even though they are clearly in the District of Braintree. -- Oliver P. 00:33, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Have a look at for example. You will see it refers the district as the 'district of Braintree' without even a capital - '"district" means the district of Braintree;'. However, this doesn't mean the district's name is the "district of Braintree", it means that they are clearly stating which of the many possible uses of the term Braintree they mean. Likewise, we are using standard wikipedia disambiguation practice to make it clear we are referring to Braintree the district. I could cope with moving them _all_ to borough of X or district of X, but this isn't something special for braintree. Morwen 19:53, Mar 10, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't think Braintree was special; I just brought it up as the example I was most familiar with. Anyway, thanks for the link. Now I'm in two minds. You must be right that the official name for the district is "Braintree", but it still seems that nobody refers to it by that name alone. If even the official documents consistently refer to it using the phrase "district of Braintree", we should presumably call it that in our articles (and picture captions!), too. That might support district of Braintree as an article title. On the other hand, if we had it at Braintree (district), we could more easily link the word "district" separately: "district of Braintree" (using the pipe trick). Maybe I should just stop worrying about it. But if it is decided to move the pages to borough of X and district of X, I can move the pages if you like... -- Oliver P. 00:31, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I like being able to use the pipe trick. I dunno really.  Morwen 19:16, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

moved conversation
moved "Borough of" discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK subdivisions.


text:
Talk:A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brittanyweis.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled
While it is true that the book is often noted for stream of consciousness, it shouldn't be. Direct stream of consciousness--"exactly what the protagonist is thinking"--appears relatively infrequently in Portrait of the Artist. Joyce's real innovation in Portrait is his use of style (primarily through syntax, diction, and motifs) to mirror consciousness. But this is an indirect method, not the direct representation of the main character's thoughts seen in stream of consciousness.

 * Agreed. I'm not sure if I feel like taking on an article about this novel, but another misconception that deserves clarification is that Dedalus is an "alter ego for Joyce." Well, he is, but I wouldn't leave it at that. It might be more accurate to say that he's a "critical representational of Joyce's younger self." The problem with Dedalus is that he's not quite an artist, at least not a good one, and he's certainly not an artist on the level of Joyce -- Dedalus's poetry is mediocre, his aesthetics is naive, and he is hobbled by his uncompromising rejection of his immediate external world. Dedalus would hardly be able to write Ulysses.  Personally, I used to dislike the character of Dedalus intensely -- and Joyce by extension, but then I began to read Ulysses, and Portrait began to make more sense to me.  If I can pull my thoughts together on this novel into something coherent (and NPOV), I'll update the article, but it's been a while since I read the book. - Cobra libre

He doesn't really 'abandon' the Stephen Hero story; he reuses it in Portrait. Also, it is very much a bemused Joyce looking back on the foolishness of his youth, which is precisely why most people aren't going to like the character of Dedalus. I doubt Joyce himself was overjoyed at his own naivete, but it served as useful material for his later work. Istvan 16:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Plot?
I noticed that there is now no mention of a plot on this Wiki page. There should be some - even if it's barely descriptive - so that people know what it's about. Does anyone disagree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.44.9 (talk) 04:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Inappropriate Titles
"Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science" is a very ambitious title for a single sentence paragraph. Similarly, the "allusions/references in other works" are all limited to variations on the title, so, if there aren't any objections, I will change the title to suit it. AshcroftIleum 15:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Followed by
This feature in the infobox is meant to present the next book in the sries, not the next work written by the author. in this case I reverted it from Exiles (play) to Ulysses (novel), since Dedalus's story is continued in Ulysses. AshcroftIleum 04:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Another allusionary reference
Another allusionary title was "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Ram" by rock band RamJam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.91.126.66 (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

bad word
"Hence the fungible length of some scenes and chapters, where Joyce's intent was to capture the subjective experience through language, rather than to present the actual experience through prose narrative."

"fungible" is definitely out of place there. fungible means interchangeable. there is nothing interchangeable about the scenes or chapters. Perhaps the writer meant terse? concise? condensed or brisk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.87.210.102 (talk) 07:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Exactly. I came to this page to discuss the very same phrase.

Fungible
 * It's pretentious (a more widely intelligible word could surely have been chosen), it is normally applied to physical commodities, legal or financia concepts, and it doesn't seem to make any sense, as it means 'interchangeable', and as noted above, it's hard to see how the sections of the novel are interchangeable, and what this has to do with

Joyce's intent... to capture the subjective experience through language, rather than to present the actual experience through prose narrative.
 * Any suggestions?

 * Sometimes I think there are people who make it their business to seed WKP articles with inappropriate nonsense in order to downgrade the project as a whole. Centrepull (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Your suspicion is correct. I was just vexed because I had to look the term up!

But nobody has changed it. I might. Lucy.

Just a question
I didn't read this book but it looks kind of the same as Peter Murphy's John the Revelator. Does anyone know if there is any connection between the two books? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.241.8.223 (talk) 10:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Joyce's location while writing the novel
On In Our Time on BBC Radio 4 this morning, Melvyn Bragg discussed the novel with his guests:  Roy Foster, Carroll Professor of Irish History and Fellow of Hertford College, Oxford; Jeri Johnson, Senior Fellow in English at Exeter College, Oxford; Katherine Mullin, Senior Lecturer in English Literature at the University of Leeds. One of them, I think Ms Mullin, stated that Joyce wrote 'Portrait' while actually living elsewhere, keeping authenticity by means of extensive notes he had made whilst in Ireland, and occasional visits to his homeland. I think she said he was living in Trieste at the time, but I didn't hear it clearly. The | programme is not available on Listen Again, so can anyone else clarify, and maybe add this useful info to the article?

Edit: The programme will be repeated at 21.30 GMT this evening. I will try to catch it, but someone else's ears would help. Also, sometimes rebroadcasts are edited down, so the comment might be snipped out. Centrepull (talk) 10:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

 * The current week's episode is made available for only a week as a podcast here or via this RSS feed. Don't know if its of the original or the rebroadcast but I do know that in less than a week the opportunity to download it will be gone. 68.165.77.243 (talk) 03:14, 29 November 2009 (UTC).

 * He wrote Stephen Hero in Dublin, but had moved to Trieste by the time he wrote A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Ktlynch (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Language of First Publication
The lead of this article says that first publication was by B.W. Huebsch in 1916, but that first English publication was by Egoist Press the following year. This implies that Huebsch publication was not in English but the info box says the language is English. Can someone who knows please sort this out by editing either the lead or the infobox to include language of first publication? Cheers.  Cottonshirt  τ   15:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

 * The Huebsch edition, published in New York, was in English. The English edition was also in English. Prob can be tweaked to say published in England. Will see what anyone else thinks. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:21, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

 * As Truthkeeper wrote, both editions were in the English language, but the Egoist Press edition was the first produced in England. Since the infobox also refers to the Egoist Press edition as the first British edition (which it was), it may be easiest to do away with the word English except when referring to the language. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:25, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

 * From your comments it seems that the sentence in the lead that reads, "The first English edition was published by the Egoist Press in February 1917." is trying to describe first publication in England rather than in English. I'm not sure this needs to be in the lead, but if it does then we could probably re-write the first couple of sentences to read: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is a semi-autobiographical novel by James Joyce, first published in serial format in the magazine The Egoist from 1914 to 1915. First published in book format by B. W. Huebsch, New York, in 1916, and re-printed by Egoist Press in England in book format in February 1917.

 * As for the infobox, I think the emphasis in there on language rather than format is unfortunate and this could probably be re-written as: First publication: serialised in The Egoist 1914-15; book edition: in the US by B.W. Huebsch, 1916, in Britain by Egoist Press 1917. Thoughts?  Cottonshirt  τ   06:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Background Section meandering
The article is on one particular novel. The only relevant background material is that which pertains to Portrait, i.e., the Stephen Hero data. The rest is irrelevant and belongs on the biography page. Orthotox (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100207224252/http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html to http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:29, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

New Plan of Action for a Portrait of the Artist as a Young man
Addition of "Themes" section under analysis. There has been extensive literary research published on some of the prevalent themes in this novel, and they can be broken down into subcategories under analysis and then elaborated on. Some themes we will include: youth, identity, transformation, religion, and the home. We will also greatly expand the section about reception, because it doesn't accurately reflect the reception that the novel received, and has a note on the section indicating a need for expansion.

Sources that will be used: Akca, Catherine. “Religion and Identity in Joyce’s A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.” Online Journal of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences. 1.1 (2008): 52. Researchgate.net. Web. 25 November 2017.

Canadas, Ivan. “A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man: James Joyce, the Myth of Icarus, and the Influence of Christopher Marlowe. Journal of Irish Studies.(2006): 21. Print.

Conde-Parrilla, M Angeles. “Hiberno-English and Identity in Joyce’s A Portrait.” Language & Literature. 22.1 (2013): 102. Print.

Deming, Robert H. James Joyce The Critical Heritage. Routledge, 1997.

Ellmann, Richard. James Joyce. Gallimard, 1982.

Fargnoli, Nicholas A. Critical Companion to James Joyce: A Literary Reference to his Life and Work. Facts on File, 2008.

Jordan, Anthony. “An Irishman's Diary.” The Irish Times, The Irish Times, 19 Feb. 2012, www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-1.466859.

Wells, H.G. "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man Review" The New Republic, 8 March 1917, https://newrepublic.com/article/91729/james-joyce — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brittanyweis (talk • contribs) 16:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Critical Reception Expansion
I have added some more information in the "critical reception" category of the page, but it still needs expansion if anyone would like to do it. It needs a few more legitimate sources to contribute to the claim that generally, the novel received acclaim. Brittanyweis (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Future Considerations
I worry that there is a reliance on the Fargnoli and Gillespie text, which is not published by a university press. This does not inspire overconfidence in the source material. The lead could also be condensed more, to focus on the absolute essentials, rather than aspects that will be tackled later in the article. Thanks to Professor Schuette who teaches the class that lead us to work on this article. Also thanks to Hterry08 and KSterli2 for their peer editing suggestions. And finally, thanks to my editing partner, Brittanyweis! Cehr1997 (talk) 9:49, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


text:
Talk:50 State quarters

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on 50 State Quarters. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080517012607/http://www.azgovernor.gov/azquarter/QPoll.asp to http://www.azgovernor.gov/azquarter/QPoll.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:18, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * All US 50 State Quarters.png

 * I wonder about the relevance of the image to the article. It is a creation that is more artwork than informative to the article. The size of the coins in the image is small and does not particularly add value to the article as an illustration. — billinghurst  sDrewth  14:09, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:America the Beautiful Quarters which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:01, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 2006 CO Proof.png
 * 2006 ND Proof.png
 * 2006 NE Proof.png
 * 2006 SD Proof.png
 * 2007 ID Proof Rev.png
 * 2007 WA Proof.png
 * 2007 WY Proof Rev.png
 * Montana quarter, reverse side, 2007.png

"50 State Quarters® Program" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect 50 State Quarters® Program and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. BD2412 T 04:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:52, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 2007 ID Proof.jpg (discussion)
 * ColoradoQuarter.jpg (discussion)
 * NebraskaQuarter.jpg (discussion)

title: Talk:50 State quarters


text:
User:ErikG

ErikG is now... Erik Garrison.

--Erik Garrison 02:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

title: User:ErikG


text:
Talk:Supremacism

Don't merge with 'triumphalism;' just retain the cross-reference.
As I pointed out over in the 'triumphalism' entry, they are truly two different types of things. 'Supremacism' is a term that is reserved for articulated, conscious doctrines. Supremacism also has an integral political nature, reflected in this entry's tight focus on the entitlement to certain rights as a defining feature of supremacist doctrines. Supremacism definitely belongs in the realm of political dogma or doctrine.

'Triumphalism,' on the other hand, is most frequently an unarticulated--even unconscious--assumption or attitude. It may be, but is not necessarily associated with any political course of action or goal. When we speak of triumphalism, we are discussing a sociological or psychological phenomenon.

In addition, 'Supremacist' is a badge of honor among true supremacists; they willingly describe themselves as supremacists. In contrast, 'triumphalism' is an observer's category. It is an adjective used by some to characterize the actions or attitudes of others--often meant to imply some measure dysfunctional delusion. No one labels him or herself a 'triumphalist;' no one explicitly advocates to increase triumphalism within his or her own group.

Crips and Bloods supremacist Groups?
Is it accurate to list the crips and Bloods aong the list of supremacist groups? to my knowledge the crips and blood are almost never refered to as a black suppemacist groups. Shouldn't then hispanic gangs be included in this list as well? or asian gangs? just because a certain race dominates a gang does not automatically make it a suppremacist group. If no further information can be provided i think they should be removed.

--The Crips is a street gang which originated in Los Angeles, California in the late 1960s. During the early 1970s, the gang grew and branched out to other parts of Los Angeles County. These new subsidiary or realigned existing gangs were known as sets, and they used the term Crips in their individual gang name.--

exert taken fron know-gangs.com there is no mention of the Crips being a suppremacist gang.

-The gang is largely composed of African Americans, but is multiracial in many cities (e.g. New York), where "satellite" Crip gangs are present. The gang has an intense rivalry with the Bloods. They are also known to feud with Chicano gangs.-

Taken form wikipedia article on crips. i gues the crips are a multiracial black supremacist group.

Phobias in See Also section?
Since a phobia is not necessarily a sign of supremacism, should phobia-related See Also links be in here?

Antisemitism
@User:GenoV84 Hi. I'm not sure what "newcomer" means, but I have been editing Wikipedia for years. I previously added notices to the talk pages for the Judaism and Jewish History WikiProjects regarding the bias and antisemitism within this article. The article as it exists promotes anti-Jewish falsehoods, such as that Judaism is a proselytizing religion. Noahides are simply not converts to Judaism. The article also presents the views of certain individuals as if they are neutral and inarguable facts, rather than opinions. Three of the sources are simply the opinions of Rachel Feldman or reference her opinions. The fact that the section inserts terms such as "goy" and "gentile" for no reason and without context is shocking, the sort of thing I normally see from neo-Nazis and white supremacist ideologues. The claim that non-Jews are "usually referred to as "Gentiles" or goyim" (referred to by whom, I might ask?) is a claim without any source. The section needs to be rewritten to avoid these glaring problems. These are serious flaws. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That part of the article is very poorly written, though not all your criticisms are valid. "Proselytization" does not mean "proselytization to become Jews", it means "proselytization to become Noahides". I removed the word. I also removed the word "goyim", even though it is the most common Hebrew word for non-Jews. Also, Rachael Feldman is highly qualified and has a book on the subject soon coming out with Rutgers University Press. In particular, her journal article is a fine source. Further criticism should focus on whether the text follows the sources, not on whether you like it. Zerotalk 08:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know how much time you have been here on Wikipedia, but deleting well-sourced, topically relevant informations with reliable references as you did because you personally don't like the content of those sources qualifies as WP:DISRUPTIVE and possibly as an attempt to WP:CENSORSHIP. Writing down what the academic, reliable references and the Jewish–Israeli newspaper Haaretz state is not a "flaw", it's simply what we are supposed to do here on this project. I suggest you to check the cited academic sources before opening a section titled "Antisemitism" against me, which could be considered a violation of the WP policy WP:AGF and also as a form of personal attacks, considering that I have contributed to many Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia over the years (for example, see the articles Elohim, God in Judaism, Hebrew Bible, Yahwism, Géza Vermes, Emanuel Tov, Kabbalah, Antisemitism in Islam, etc.). GenoV84 (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no "personal attack", nor an assumption of bad faith, nor an accusation "against you" that you are antisemitic. That seems like an assumption on your part. If that is the impression I gave, I apologize. The text itself is deeply flawed, inflammatory, and misleading. In doing so, this conveys antisemitism to the reader - regardless of who wrote the text or why. It badly needs context and nuance to avoid conveying harmful notions of what Jews believe. This can be done. It can be mentioned that the entire section is based around Rachel Feldman's views (including the Haaretz article that also mentions her). Currently she's not mentioned. The "proselytize" language should be avoided because it causes confusion for the lay reader who may not be familiar with Judaism's intricacies. The claim that (Jews?) "typically" refer to non-Jews as "goyim" is lurid and baseless. I'm also concerned that the casual no-context language about "racism" and "racial superiority" may falsely convey to the lay reader the notion that Jews are a race. Jews are not a race. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * Those Jewish readers and non-Jewish readers who are knowledgeable about Judaism and halakha may understand these finer distinctions, but that may not be the case for the general Wikipedia readership. In the interest of clarity, and to avoid promoting misconceptions about Judaism, I think we should just avoid the "proselytism" language altogether. I'm not questioning Feldman's scholarship, but I am questioning why an entire section is based around her views but never mentions her. The paragraph about "Jewish supremacism" mentions Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad. What does "most common" or "typically" mean here? The article conveys a baseless, unsourced idea that it is the norm for Jews to refer to non-Jews as "goyim", which is dubious and irresponsible at best. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * I agree with you about the attribution of this academic research on Noahidism to Rachel Feldman, and I restored the latest changes performed by the editor Zero0000, which had removed the term "goyim" from the section on Jewish supremacism . Anyway, Feldman's research doesn't convey the entire section on Jewish supremacism, only the second paragraph; the first one about Jewish supremacism is focused on the definitions and examples provided by Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad, while the third one is focused on the religio-political ideology of the Religious Zionist Party.
 * The concept of race is a form of human categorization, scientists know that races don't exist. However, I would also point out to the very first pages of Feldman's research on the Noahide community in the Philippines (2018); she reports that the modern Noahide movement was founded by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel in the 1990s, who have decidedly instructed the Filipino Noahides to believe that they are racially inferior to Jews and are forbidden from reading Jewish scriptures and performing Jewish rites and customs, as well as to support their messianic, supremacist movement in order to rebuild the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem:
 * "'Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online. Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism. Filipino Noahides believe that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity. According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts. These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahides are practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem.'" GenoV84 (talk) 23:13, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a run on sentence from hell:
 * "However, these religious Zionist and Orthodox rabbis that guide the modern Noahide movement, who are often affiliated with the Third Temple movement, expound a racist and supremacist ideology which consists in the belief that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation and racially superior to non-Jews, and mentor Noahides because they believe that the Messianic era will begin with the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to re-institute the Jewish priesthood along with the practice of ritual sacrifices, and the establishment of a Jewish theocracy in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides."
 * It is also brazenly biased. This is a viewpoint. As it is someone's opinion, it should be articulated as such. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As you can see, these informations are already attributed to Rachel Z. Feldman and Ilany Ofri from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz througout the article. You are free to believe that these Jewish authors and scholars are brazenly biased against other Jews if you want, but I think that it wouldn't make any sense. GenoV84 (talk) 15:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Once again, you have deliberately deleted the aforementioned content with reliable references due to your own personal bias, accusing all the authors of those sources, wich are Jewish and Israeli academics  , of being "White supremacists". Your statement in the edit summary regarding those sources and their respective authors is ridiculous and laughable, to say the least. Your total incompetence regarding the topic of Jewish supremacism cannot be denied. GenoV84 (talk) 10:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Remember: Wikipedia is not censored. GenoV84 (talk) 10:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @GenoV84 This was so long ago, I had to go back for another look. Wikipedia indeed isn't censored. Wikipedia also isn't composed of bogus information. The claim that some Jews hold a "supremacist view that pure blood jews should not mix with non jews, whom they consider inferior" is bunk. The idea of "pure blood" is not a concept within Judaism, nor do any of the sources claim this. A Jewish convert who has no "Jewish blood" (I put it in quotations, because there's no such thing) is permitted to marry someone born Jewish with Jewish ancestry. Likewise, a born-Jewish child of two converts who nevertheless doesn't have any "Jewish blood" can also marry born Jews with Jewish ancestry. This is misinformation. It is not "censorship" to remove unsourced and baseless propaganda from Wikipedia. The sentences I removed are simply false. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @GenoV84 Reviewing the information added by User:Calrrkekek, I think the information can stay except for the last sentence, which should be removed. For clarification, when I said "white supremacist" I was referring to the now-banned user who had "kek" in their username and made inflammatory edits about Jews. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you for the clarification. GenoV84 (talk) 15:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @GenoV84 So you are okay with removing this unsourced sentence?: "This view is according to the supremacist view that pure blood Jews should not mix with non-Jews, whom they consider inferior." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is unsourced, it definitely should be removed. GenoV84 (talk) 15:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxonism in the 19th century
Any objections to adding a link to this page under racial supremacism: further information? Jen nia mondo (talk) 23:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Supremacism


text: User talk:203.36.44.12

title: User talk:203.36.44.12


text:
Epithet

An epithet, also a byname, is a descriptive term (word or phrase) commonly accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a real or fictitious person, place, or thing. It is usually literally descriptive, as in Alfred the Great, Suleiman the Magnificent, Richard the Lionheart, and Ladislaus the Short, or allusive, as in Edward the Confessor, William the Conqueror, Æthelred the Unready, John Lackland, Mehmed the Conqueror and Bloody Mary.

The word epithet also may refer to an abusive, defamatory, or derogatory word or phrase. This use is criticized by Martin Manser and other proponents of linguistic prescription. H. W. Fowler noted in 1926 that "epithet is suffering a vulgarization that is giving it an abusive imputation."

Linguistics
Epithets are sometimes attached to a person's name or appear in place of their name, as what might be described as a glorified nickname or sobriquet, and for this reason some linguists have argued that they should be considered as pronouns. It has also been argued that epithets are a phenomenon with the syntax–semantics interface, because they have components of both, and also a pragmatic dimension.

An epithet is linked to its noun by long-established usage. Not every adjective is an epithet. An epithet is especially recognizable when its function is largely decorative, such as if "cloud-gathering Zeus" is employed other than in reference to conjuring up a storm. "The epithets are decorative insofar as they are neither essential to the immediate context nor modeled especially for it. Among other things, they are extremely helpful to fill out a half-verse", Walter Burkert has noted.

Some epithets are known by the Latin term epitheton necessarium, as they are required to distinguish the bearers, as an alternative to numbers after a prince's name—such as Richard the Lionheart (Richard I of England), or Charles the Fat alongside Charles the Bald. The same epithet can be used repeatedly joined to different names, such as Alexander the Great as well as Constantine the Great.

Other epithets can easily be omitted without serious risk of confusion and are therefore known as epitheton ornans. Thus, the classical Roman author Virgil systematically called his main hero pius Aeneas, the epithet being pius, meaning religiously observant, humble and wholesome, as well as calling the armsbearer of Aeneas fidus Achates, the epithet being fidus, which means faithful or loyal.

Literature
Epithets are characteristic of the style of ancient epic poetry, notably in that of Homer or the northern European sagas (see above, as well as epithets in Homer). When James Joyce uses the phrase "the snot-green sea" he is playing Homer's familiar epithet "the wine-dark sea". The phrase "Discreet Telemachus" is also considered an epithet.

The Greek term antonomasia, in rhetoric, means substituting any epithet or phrase for a proper name, as "Pelides", signifying the "son of Peleus", to identify Achilles. An opposite substitution of a proper name for some generic term is also sometimes called antonomasia, as a Cicero for an orator. The use of a father's name or ancestor's name, such as "Pelides" in the case of Achilles, or "Saturnia" in the case of the goddess Juno in Virgil's Aeneid, is specifically called a patronymic device and is in its own class of epithet.

In William Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet, epithets are used in the prologue, such as "star-cross'd lovers" and "death-mark'd love."

Epithets were in layman's terms glorified nicknames that could be used to represent one's style, artistic nature, or even geographical reference. They originated to simply serve the purpose of dealing with names that were hard to pronounce or just unpleasant. It from there went to something that could be very significant assigned by elders or counterparts to represent one's position in the community, or it could be a representation of whomever one wanted to be or thought he was. The elegance of this movement was used throughout history and even modern day, with many examples ranging from "Aphrodite the Heavenly & Zeus the Protector of Guests" all the way to "Johnny Football & King James".

American comic books tend to give epithets to superheroes, such as The Phantom being "The Ghost Who Walks", Superman called "The Man of Steel", and "The Dynamic Duo" Batman and Robin, who are individually known as "The Dark Knight" and "The Boy Wonder".

Additionally, epíteto, the Spanish version of epithet, is commonly used throughout poems in Castilian literature.

Religion
In many polytheistic religions, such as those of ancient India and Iran (the most ancient of which go back to a common Indo-Iranian period), Greece and Rome, a deity's epithets generally reflected a particular aspect of that god's essence and role, for which their influence may be obtained for a specific occasion: Apollo Musagetes is "Apollo, [as] leader of the Muses" and therefore patron of the arts and sciences, while Phoibos Apollo is the same deity, but as shining sun-god. "Athena protects the city as polias, oversees handicrafts as ergane, joins battle as promachos and grants victory as nike."

Alternatively, the epithet may identify a particular and localized aspect of the god, such as a reference to the mythological place of birth or numinous presence at a specific sanctuary: sacrifice might be offered on one and the same occasion to Pythian Apollo (Apollo Pythios) and Delphic Apollo (Apollo Delphinios). A localizing epithet refers simply to a particular center of veneration and the cultic tradition there, as the god manifested at a particular festival, for example: Zeus Olympios, Zeus as present at Olympia, or Apollo Karneios, Apollo at the Spartan Carneian festival.

Often the epithet is the result of fusion of the Olympian divinity with an older one. Poseidon Erechtheus and Artemis Orthia reflect intercultural equations of a divinity with an older one that is generally considered its pendan. Thus, most Roman gods and goddesses, especially the Twelve Olympians, had traditional counterparts in Greek, Etruscan, and most other Mediterranean pantheons, such as Jupiter as head of the Olympian Gods with Zeus. But in specific cults there may be a different equation, based on one specific aspect of the divinity. Thus, the Greek word Trismegistos ("thrice grand") was first used as a Greek name for the Egyptian god of science and invention, Thoth, later as an epitheton for the Greek Hermes and, finally, the fully equated Roman Mercurius Mercury (both were messenger of the gods). Among the Greeks, T.H. Price notes that the nurturing power of Kourotrophos might be invoked in sacrifices and recorded in inscription, without specifically identifying Hera or Demeter.

Some epithets were applied to several deities of the same pantheon rather accidentally if they had a common characteristic, or deliberately, emphasizing their blood or other ties. Thus, in pagan Rome, several divinities gods and heroes were given the epitheton Comes as companion of another (usually major) divinity. An epithet can even be meant for collective use, e.g., in Latin pilleati, "the felt hat-wearers" for the brothers Castor and Pollux. Some epithets resist explanation.

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Christians of other churches practice the use of epithets in the veneration of Jesus (e.g., "Christ"; "Prince of Peace"; "The Good Shepherd"), of Mary, Mother of Jesus (e.g., "Mother of God"; "Panagia"), and of the saints (e.g., "Pope Saint John Paul the Great, Saint Theophan the Recluse"). "Our Lady of Lourdes" is essentially periphrasis, except where some aspect of the Virgin is invoked.

Rhetoric
An epithet is an adjective or adjectival phrase that characterizes a place, a thing, or a person that helps make the characteristics of this thing more prominent. These descriptive phrases can be used in a positive or negative way that benefits the orator. "It will generally happen, that the Epithets employed by a skillful orator, will be found to be, in fact, so many abridged arguments, the force of which is sufficiently conveyed by a mere hint; e.g., if any one says, 'We ought to take warning from the bloody revolution of France,' the Epithet suggests one of the reasons for our being warned; and that, not less clearly, and more forcibly, than if the argument had been stated at length." With persuasion being a key component of rhetoric, it is rational to use epithets. The use of persuasive wording gives leverage to one's arguments. Knowledge along with descriptive words or phrases can be a powerful tool. This is supported in Bryan Short's article when he states, "The New Rhetoric derives its empiricist flavor from a pervasive respect for clarity and directness of language." Rhetoricians use epithets to direct their audience to see their point of view, using verbal forms of imagery as a persuasive tactic.

Orators have a variety of epithets that they can employ that have different meanings. The most common are fixed epithets and transferred epithets. A fixed epithet is the repetitive use of the same word or phrase for the same person or object. A transferred epithet qualifies a noun other than the person or thing it is describing. This is also known as a hypallage. This can often involve shifting a modifier from the animate to the inanimate; for example, "cheerful money" and "suicidal sky".

Orators take special care when using epithets so as to not use them as smear words. Orators could be accused of racial or abusive epithets if used incorrectly. American journalist William Safire discussed the use of the word in a 2008 column in The New York Times: "'I am working on a piece about nationalism with a focus on epithet as a smear word,' writes David Binder, my longtime Times colleague, 'which was still a synonym for 'delineation' or 'characterization' in my big 1942 Webster's but now seems to be almost exclusively a synonym for 'derogation' or 'smear word.' ... In the past century, [epithet] blossomed as 'a word of abuse,' today gleefully seized upon to describe political smears."

Usage prior to surnames
Descriptive bynames were given to a person to distinguish them from other people of the same name. In England bynames were used during the period when the use of surnames had not been extensively adopted. As an example the Domesday Book of 1086 identifies 40 individuals with the given name of "Richard". Most (40%), such as "Richard of Coursey" are identified with a locational byname, indicating where they came from, or in some cases where they lived. Others (25%), such as "Richard the butler" and "Richard the bald" are identified with an occupational or a personally descriptive byname. Some of the individuals, such as Richard Basset, made use of what would now be recognized as a surname.

The distinction between a byname and a surname is that the byname is not usually heritable, and may change for any given person as his circumstances change. Richard the Bald, for example, was presumably not always bald, and Richard of Brampton may not have always lived at Brampton.

The use of bynames did not end with the adoption of surnames. In some cases, before the adoption of middle names, government records, such as taxes lists, included people with both the same given name and the same surname. This led to the use of bynames to further distinguish the person. For example, one "John Smith" might be described as "John Smith of the mill", while another might be described as "John Smith the short".

title: Epithet