text:
Talk:Faramir

Untitled
Blonde, anyway? I think blonde on an adult male looks ABNORMAL! By the way, does PETER JACKSON hate Faramir? Who would dislike Faramir anyhow? He's against war, sweet, and helpful (Well, he was nice to Frodo and Sam!), and I like that on a person.

Okay, I agree that Faramir was abused througout the movie series. But what Peter Jackson really tried to do was to tear him away from Eowyn so she'd like Aragorn (apparently).

In summary:

Eowyn + Aragorn = NO WAY HOZAY!

Eowyn + Faramir = YES!!!

Aragorn + Arwen = YES!!!

Hehhehheh...sorry. Well, and there is some rumor Sam and Faramir are the same age. NO WAY! SAM IS OLDER!

In summary:

Sam: age 39

Faramir: age 36

39 > 36

Hehehehe...I love anyone who is nice like Faramir. Besides, Tolkien probably intentioned for Faramir to be totally different from Boromir. Most of the time when Faramir was very little, his mother Finduilas cared for him, but Denethor hated Faramir (this has a little bit to do with Cinderella, I think, as Cinderella's stepmother hated her so much), and when Finduilas died, Boromir protected Faramir. And without Boromir, Denethor could have made Faramir do work all day and wear old torn-up clothes.

So you have it. Denethor was cruel to Faramir, and Boromir defended Faramir.

Okay. Well, here's a family tree.

[Sorry to intrude on somebody else's comment and throw off the chronology of this, but this family tree needs to be fixed. Honestly, it screws up the rest of the page. I tried fixing it, and on the preview it looked fine, but it turned out making it worse. Please revert to the original, and fix it. --queso man 18:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)]

Mardil               Imrazor = Mithrellas :                         : Turgon                        : |                         : Ecthelion II                 Aglahad |                         |    |                      Angelimar |                         |    |                      Adrahil II    |                          | |             ---    |              |           |         |    |           Ivriniel       |      Imrahil |                         |         |    |             --    -    |             |                 |         |         |       | Denethor II = Finduilas           Elphir  Erichion    Amthoros   | |                       |                           |            |                     Alphros    - |                               |                                |                    Éomer = Lothiriel ---             |      |                 |               Boromir          Faramir = Éowyn          | |            |                    Elboron        Elfwine |                   Barahir

... right. Anyway, was Faramir actually the Steward of Gondor at anytime? The brief interlude between Denethor's death and Imrahil's appointment? Considering he was unconscious the entire time, I doubt it. Oberiko 18:54, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * It was sort of a technicality. But Faramir was the one who passed over the crown to Aragorn, and he retained the office of Steward afterwards, although it returned to its earlier function (that of advisor to the King, although it was probably mostly an honorary title since Faramir didn't even live in Minas Tirith). --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:00, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * "On the day of the coronation, Faramir surrendered his Stewardship. Aragorn, however, renewed the office..." Formally, it didn't work that way. Aragorn handed the Rod of the Stewards back to Faramir and told him that his office was not ended. Had Aragorn accepted the Rod, he would have become Steward. Instead, he ordered Faramir to do his job as Steward, which was to have the people accept him as King. This is perhaps a subtle point. Wastrel Way (talk) 02:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC) Eric
 * Amidst a not-very-good 20-year-old thread that would today be deleted per NOTFORUM ... ok, well yes, technically correct, but I doubt one reader in a thousand would detect the difference in meaning from the current text. I suppose we could say that F. "offered to surrender" the stewardship, but since we've said that A. renewed it, we've got the bases covered really. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Aragorn entered the city only as a Ranger of the North — not as the heir of Isildur. Thus Faramir technically reigned from the suicide of Denethor to Aragorn’s coronation (not that he had much choice in the matter). {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ } 21:23, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Faramir WAS the Steward of Gondor. As Aranel said, Faramir passed the Crown of Gondor to Aragorn, at this time Faramir says: "The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office." (LotR, The Return of the King, The Steward and the King) It is thus clear that the office of Ruling Steward was Faramir's from the moment of Denethor's death. However, as is noted Faramir was incapacitated for much of this time. 'True' authority was exercised by Gandalf and Aragorn, with Prince Imrahil in Faramir's stead: "the Lord of Dol Amroth shall rule the City until Faramir awakes". Upon his awakening, Faramir assumed the role of Steward, primarily for the purpose of preparing for the coronation of Aragorn.

It is interesting that at his coronation Aragorn replies: "That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last." Appendix A (Annals of the Kings and Rulers) to the Lord of the Rings listed Denethor II as the "last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar, F.A. 82." As the death of Faramir's father and the crowning of King Elessar occurred in the year 3019 (of 3021) of the third age, and Faramir lived to the year 82 of the fourth age he held his stewardship for 84 years (assuming he did not pass it to his heir prior to his death). Therefore, although Faramir was (technically) Steward of Gondor before Aragorn's crowning as King Elessar, he was not considered among the ruling stewards.

As Anárion notes, subsequent to Aragorn's accession, Faramir became an advisor to the crown. However, his role as steward would have been more than ceremonial, still with responsibility for rule of the city/kingdom whilst the King was away (for instance when Aragorn travelled to Arnor to reestablish the northen kingdom). As for Faramir not even living in Minas Tirith, he was given "Ithilien to be his princedom", however he was to dwell within sight of Minas Tirith (in Emyn Arnen). Therefore, like Prince Imrahil, Faramir was given his own sub-territory of Gondor to officially reside in. This does not preclude having a greater than ceremonial participation in the ruling of the kingdom.

In closing, Master Samwise and Faramir ARE the same age. The Tale of Years (Appendix B) has them both born in the year 2983 of the third age.

BDB79 10:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation
An anonymous user at 70.181.69.136 recently added some text to this article that appears to be taken from this site. This may be a violation of the site's copyright, unless the anon is the copyright holder. I've reverted it for now, and if the anon is the copyright holder he or she can restore the text. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Quotations
Some of the quotations are from the books, some from the films. The differences should be noted. Savidan 23:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That is noted. Not sure if the quotation format to note the books are correct though.  If anyone does know, feel free to edit please! Mirlen 03:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Beards
"A minor change is that in the book, Faramir and his brother are dark-haired and lack beards, but in the movie, they have fair hair and are bearded."

The book doesn't explicitly say that Boromir and Faramir themselves are unbearded. This is probably an assumption based on the statement in Unfinished Tales that Men descended from Elves were beardless and the fact that Boromir and Faramir were descended from Imrazôr and Mithrellas through their mother Finduilas. But I've always wondered if Tolkien really meant that every single Man with any amount of Elvish ancestry, which would include Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn, was beardless. (Admittedly Imrazôr's marriage to Mithrellas was thousands of years more recent than Aragorn's Elven ancestry.)

Gildir 14:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Not all Elves are beardless: Círdan is specifically noted for being bearded, as was Nerdanel's father Mahtan. And Legolas' father Thranduilis also described as bearded in The Hobbit. Typically beards were a sign of extremely advanced age under Elves:
 * 'Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII: 365-66 n. 61] was exceptional, being only early in his second.' VT 41 JRRT
 * An example of a young bearded Elf may be Beleg of Doriath, in Tolkien's painting "Taur-nu-Fuin". No assumption can be made for human descendants of Elves: the note in UT does state that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was denoted by the fact that he didn't have a beard, but this does not mean all descendants of Elves are beardless! -- Jordi· ✆ 01:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That painting has to be touched with a ten-foot pole, though. IIRC, Tolkien changed its "meaning" later towards depicting a scene in Fangorn forest. It's unclear whether he changed more than the meaning. Also, the figures are a pretty small part of the pic. While I myself used it to illustrate the notion that elvish swords are straight, I would be hard-pressed to draw conclusions as far as facial features are concerned. In any case, given elvish control over their body, it should be primarily an issue of whether an elf WANTS to have a beard. As for the quote on Nerdanel's father above, it also needs to be used with caution, a lot in the HoME are temporary notes. As for Imrahil's heritage, Tolkien goes to great length to stress that this is what people in Dol Amroth tell others of the heritage of their lords, but whether it is factual or not he leaves open. It could very well be folk tales. --OliverH 20:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Age and hate
Okay, I agree that Faramir was abused througout the movie series. But what Peter Jackson really tried to do was to tear him away from Eowyn so she'd like Aragorn (apparently).

In summary:

Eowyn + Aragorn = NO WAY HOZAY!

Eowyn + Faramir = YES!!!

Aragorn + Arwen = YES!!!

Peter Jackson does not hate Faramir. The issue was not whether he was likeable, but whether, in a film lacking any other demonstrations of the Ring's power, Faramir's seeming immunity to its power was believable or dramatically interesting. They didn't abuse him, they made him believable. He still let Frodo and Sam go, and acts in accordance with the book in the third film.

It had nothing to do with Eowyn's relationship with Aragorn. Need I remind you that both couples hook up the same way as in the book by the end of the third movie. Need I also remind you of Eowyn's obvious feelings for Aragorn in the book, which provoke her into following the Rohirrim into battle?

Hehhehheh...sorry. Well, and there is some rumor Sam and Faramir are the same age. NO WAY! SAM IS OLDER!

In summary:

Sam: age 39

Faramir: age 36

I don't know where you're getting your information. They ARE the same age.

From The Return of the King, Appendix B:

Year 2983: Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.

Kenobifan 03:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Rank
I have question. Does anyone know the difference between Captain of the White Tower and Captain-General/or Captain-General of the White Tower? Because Faramir inherits the title, Captain of the White Tower, after his brother's death—which from one source states that he now takes over command of Gondor's armies, but when I look up on Boromir's article on wikipedia, Captain of the White Tower is not the same thing as Captain-General of the White Tower, so I am rather confused. What is the difference? What is the position that Faramir inherits? —Mirlen 13:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * These ranks were not clearly defined by Tolkien that I know of, but I would guess that 'Captain of Gondor' was a rank held by a fairly important military leader (note that Eärnur was heir to the throne and so called when he led Gondor's forces against Angmar) while 'Captain-General' was reserved for the overall field-commander of all Gondor's armies. It is possible that the terms were synonymous, but Captain-General usually has other connotations and it doesn't seem likely that Faramir would have been 'promoted' to the position before Boromir's death was proven. Whether there was any distinction between 'Captain-General' and 'High Warden of the White Tower' is also unclear. --CBDunkerson 21:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Too much info?
Mirlen, thanks for all the added stuff you put, but I think it has too much information on a charecter who didn't play a huge role in the Lord of the Rings books. We all love Faramir but Damn! I think we should prune/summarize some of the info. Ted87 18:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha, now that you've pointed it out, maybe you're right, Ted87 :P. I admit I can carried away with my favorite characters *blushes*.  I'll try to resist my temptation and cut it down a bit...or maybe a lot :P. —Mirlen 22:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this really encyclopedic?
I have just come across this article, and many similar ones, after seeing the article on Tolkien reach featured status. This article about Faramir doesn't feel very encyclopedic to me, and in places is written in the style of biographies about historical people. The article also feels to me more like a summary of the character's story-arc, which is just a different way of doing a plot summary. I have no problem with encyclopedic articles about Tolkien and his works and his influence on fantasy and so on, but this sort of article doesn't seem to add much to the encyclopedia. Isn't there a Tolkien wiki for this kind of stuff? Carcharoth 16:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article is currently a bit overboard. There has been some discussion (above) of cutting it back. There is a Tolkien based wiki and it might be a more 'fitting' place for some of this level of detail, but Wikipedia itself incorporates an equal (and in some cases greater) level of detail for many similar topics. I think material is often put here over the TolkienWiki because of the benefits of having a single source for info on all topics. Maybe a balance will eventually be found in how much detail should be in Wikipedia and then more precise stuff will migrate to the Tolkien wiki and similar sub-projects... but it is equally possible that Wikipedia will become an 'all inclusive' source. --CBDunkerson 17:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, don't worry Carcharoth, Ted and I are working on to cut down the information. If you have any suggestions on how to cut it down, please feel free to share it. :) — Mir  l  e  n  19:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I corrected a typo in the lead quote, but not sure what else to suggest. I'll have a think about it. One thought I had was referencing the lead quote, but I'm not sure what standard is used here to reference the books. I'll pop that question back on the WikiProject page Carcharoth 23:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The issue is not level of detail per say but style. We can include as much detail as there is as long as its grounded in the books rather than fan fiction. I'd suggest—to get away from the "biography of a real person" style—organizing it by the books (i.e. sections titled "In the Similarion", "In the Two Towers", etc.). savidan(talk) (e@) 17:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Faramir's Pic
Can we get a better picture of Faramir? You can barely see his face at all in the current one because of the shadow. Surely there's a better one. --:..SMI..:: 09:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Um. You do know Faramir is not real, right? All these artworks or film scenes are just based on the imagination of the artist, or the decision of a casting director. For a 'true' picture of Faramir, you need to read all the text from the books that describes his physical appearance. Carcharoth 13:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Evaluation
Hello,

I have a few preliminary concerns for this article...

 * I do not believe that the Eiβmann illustrations fall under the fair use guidelines for images, which specifically states (Acceptable Images) that such images can only be used when accompanied by critical commentary. Here, they are merely being used for identification and for illustration, and the article does not actually discuss or comment on the qualities/characteristics of the images themselves.
 * I also believe a reorganization of the sections is in order: I think the concept/creation section should logically come first (as this is a fictional character), the titles/name origin section next, followed by the appearances in lit/adaptations section.

...more to follow. Thanks! --Malachirality (talk) 20:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

 * As per the above sections, IMO the "appearances" section esp. needs to be rewritten to emphasize that Faramir is not a real, living person. To this end, I believe the film and the literature subsections should be broken up into two completely separate sections. The depiction and information concerning Faramir in each (book and film) can then be discussed at length and in depth, with the correct heading to indicate that it is fiction (less like a biography that way).
 * If you were to split up the discussion of Faramir into books and lit, it might also allow you to actually provide the critical commentary that is necessary (IMHO) to justify the fair use images.
 * There are also a few, nitpicky stylistic problems with the prose as well. If you'll notice, most "paragraphs" in the article are only a few sentences and three or four lines in length. This is usually a product of underdeveloped ideas and choppy transitions. You can fix this by making your coverage of the subject deeper, while making sure there is enough context (i.e. wlinks or explanations of the various characters, settings, etc.) so that someone unfamiliar with the LOTR universe can read the article.

 * In short, I believe a thorough reorganization is probably the most important thing for this article. By moving the "creations/conception" section up to first, you will help establish that this is not a biography of a real person. I believe the etymology/"name derivation" should also be moved into this creation section, while the "titles" portion should be moved into the section concerning the literature (since they aren't real titles and positions). Then, in discussing Faramir's character, appearance, behavior, etc., you should tell the reader where each piece of information comes from (In the Silmarillion, Tolkein establishes that...), furthering entrenching the idea of the fictional character. In the process, you could also draw upon the EiBmann illustrations when describing "Faramir in literature", thus allowing you to definitely use the fair use images.

The above are preliminary musings and first impressions from me. Feel free to discuss any doubts, concerns, or disagreeing opinions below. We'll see where the article is in a week. Thanks! Malachirality (talk) 00:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you have a fair point concerning fair use of images. I know you have stated that you may be wrong since the images have stayed up this long without critical commentary, but it seems to me that most images in fictional articles don't follow up with a critical commentary — thus, presenting what potentially may be a wide-spread problem for fictional articles.  Earlier, you stated that "For example, you could discuss specifically Faramir's depiction in the EiBmann illustrations (as either part of lit, part of adaptations, or in a separate section), and compare it to the 'canon' descriptions in the text."  If I were to provide the critical commentary myself, I would be treading into WP:OR.  I don't think there are primary or secondary sources out there that compare Anke's illustrations (or even for most of the film images, for that matter) with the canon descriptions of the text.  However, if the artist himself/herself were to describe what canon description he/she used to draw a certain piece of art, couldn't that count as critical commentary even if the commentary/note is not as detailed or analytical as that of a scholar's?

 * If you have quote from the artist on hand, I think that would work very well for the article and the images. --Malachirality (talk) 16:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure moving up the creations/conception section before the Appearances section is necessary. HOWEVER, before I comment any more, let me experiment with the reorganization and reorder of the headings as you recommend, because it's an intriguing suggestion... Also, I'll be editing and improving the article here, because editing directly onto the article and experimenting with the layout of the headings rather drastically would completely contradict the current standards of WP:Me, which I am a member of.  If my tweaks end up being favorable to the concensus of WP:Me and interested editors outside of the WikiProject, then I'll propose a revamp of the headings.  After concensus is reach, I'll directly transfer the new layout of the headings to this article.  I whole-heartedly invite you to edit the test page and/or comment on the talk page over there. :)

 * Thanks for the stylistic prose critique, it was helpful and should be taken care of in due course. On a similar note, the articles does make attempt to establish the different novels.  I'll see if I can fix the prose to reflect a more OOU perspective, and come up with varities of "Tolkien [insert verb] in [insert book]" as so not to repetitive when starting off or ending that phrase in a majority of the sentences.  I am open to suggestions on that. — Mirlen  04:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Malachirality has actually brought up several common points of ME articles that I felt to be defective myself. I've started a discussion on the arrangement of sections at the Standards talk page. Mirlen, with your permission, I'll edit your sandbox in this and other respects.
 * In respect of Eißmann's images: they should likewise be an object of a centralised discussion, but at the moment I don't want to embark upon starting it, as that would be a colossal process. I think we could leave them as they are for now, possibly adding a commentary note; Maedhros got GA status with similar ones intact (though in general I suppose two images by an artist would do, one in "Portrayal" section and possibly one in "History").
 * If I have some free time, I'll rewrite the "Literature" section into OOU, and possibly expand "Concept and creation". Súrendil (talk) 14:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Edit ahead, Súrendil, my dear! Malachirality, with respect to the organization of sections, you should check out the discussion here. — Mirlen  01:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

GA review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)

 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Details:

 * Lede, I'd like to see a bit more in the lede. There is quite a lot in the Appearances section that could be summarized into the lede, Likewise the Concept section, the fact that Faramir's appearance was a surprise to Tolkien should probably be in the lede.
 * Appearances section, Literature subsection. The first few paragraphs are very short and stubby, making the text flow choppy in this section. Consider merging or expanding the paragraphs to make the prose flow easier.
 * Same section and subsection, the parantage of Faramir needs a citation if it's going to stand alone as a paragraph. If you merge it with the next sentence, the citation on that paragraph will cover the sentence.
 * Likewise the last sentence of the third paragraph and a number of the paragraphs after the dream quotation. Much of these paragraphs are unsourced and should probably be sourced. Note that I don't write articles on fictional subjects, so if there is an exception in WP:Fiction, please let me know.
 * Same section, Adaptations subsection. the first paragraph is short and choppy and unsourced.
 * Same section and subsection, The second paragraph, last sentence is unsourced.
 * Same section and subsection, fifth paragraph. The first sentence, I would reword the second phrase to "for these fans, Faramir..." to make it clear that it is the fans being referred to, not the cast and crew.
 * Same section, sixth and seventh paragraph need citations, exspecially the quotation in the seventh paragraph. Quotations should always be cited.
 * Names and titles section, second paragraph, you guessed it, needs a citation.
 * Concept and creation, the second paragraph jumps to a subject about thee and thou that is very abrupt. Perhaps rework it so that the flow between the first paragraph and the second makes more sense.
 * The pictures give me concerns, as using three copyrighted works when you're not discussing those works themselves in the article is probably pushing fair use doctrine too far. Whittle it down to one or at most two. THe movie still strikes me as being used to ID the actor, so probably is safe enough. I'd really rather see no artistic pictures at all. Perhaps a scan of the original copy of Two Towers if you really feel a picture is necessary, which honestly I don't. I'd pass the article easier if it had none, honestly.
 * Malachriality's suggestion of a reorg on the article makes sense, and would definitely be useful if you try to take the article to FA. However, this layout works for me fine also.

Overall, a good article. I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address these concerns. Please feel free to contact me here or on my talk page with any questions or concerns.Ealdgyth | Talk 16:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Actually, substantial progress has already been made on some of these points in the sandbox version, especially on the lead and sourcing. Working upon the rest ;) Súrendil (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Okies, I'm more than happy to extend the hold for a bit (not forever) if progress is being made. Ealdgyth | Talk 18:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

How's progress coming on this? Just checking in. Ealdgyth | Talk 14:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone? Anyone? Ealdgyth | Talk 05:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * From my side, progress is slow - session exams, see. However, Psyche825 has seemingly also embarked on this task, and I will still do what I can. Can you note what should yet be improved in the sandbox version? Súrendil (talk) 12:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Portrayal sections still has some subsections that are stubby and short. Lede is much improved. Things look much better, although if you're going to try for FA, you'll want to avoid wikilinking things in direct quotations. Supposedly, we're supposed to avoid that sort of thing. Ealdgyth | Talk 15:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the sections throughout the article, and added and updated several references. If anyone can find more "official" articles discussing Andrew Seear's voice acting in BBC's 1981 radio adaptation, that would be wonderful.  What do you think, Ealdgyth?  And interesting bit about avoiding wikilinks in direct quotations.  Thanks for the tip. — Mirlen  19:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good, but I still have concerns over the number of Fair use images in the article. About ready to move it over to the mainspace?Ealdgyth | Talk 20:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As Súrendil has suggested, perhaps a commentary note can be added — since reorganizing the fair use images and expanding on commentary is not a simple, small process. Otherwise, I think I'll move it over to the mainspace, and see if other editors have suggestions or edits to go about with the commentary. — Mirlen  02:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Drop me a note on my talk page when you're ready for me to evaluate it again. Ealdgyth | Talk 05:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Not having heard anything, I went ahead and relooked. It passes, although I continue to have concerns about the number of fair use images. That should probably be addressed before FA, as well as a couple of spots that could use citations, etc. Ealdgyth | Talk 17:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry. I was unable to work further on the article concerning fair use images due to school work, forgive me.  But the deal with fair use images in Faramir's article is only a small piece in a jigsaw puzzle, so I'll bring it up with the wikiproject to deal with the probable general problem. — Mirlen  Talk 23:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Faramir and Ithilien
How probable is it that 'militarily inclined younger brothers' of the High Steward (or his heir) were given Ithilien as a domain to prevent the 'powerful uncle interfering in the affairs of, or deposing the young ruling nephew' syndrome? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.174.10 (talk) 10:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed changes to infobox
See discussion here. It started as a debate on whether the infobox should be removed from Saruman after a recent GA fail, but has moved on to proposed changes to the M-e character infoboxes to make them less in-universe, as required by Wikipedia's guidelines on writing about fiction. All comments welcome. 4u1e (talk) 05:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

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Fan art
Begin discussion moved from user talk:Elphion -- Elphion (talk) 18:08, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Hey Elphion,

Do you mind pointing me to the long-standing project guideline forbidding fan art in Wikipedia infoboxes? As far as I can see, similar art lives perfectly fine at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faramir and https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faramir (in the latter case, it is in fact specifically called out as "fan art").

WRT to the image for Finduilas of Dol Amroth, there was only one question about the origin of the drawing when it was initially added (failed to follow the correct image upload procedure), but it has never been challenged for being "fan art".

Upon some investigation, I've found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_image_deletion, which says, "Images may be deleted on Wikipedia if they do not conform to our image use policy or if they are no longer needed." At the same time, I've scrutinized https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy and could not find any sign of fan art being forbidden. These images also seem to comply with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Images#Images_for_the_lead, since they are "natural and appropriate representations of the topic". This can be backed by the exact character descriptions by J. R. R. Tolkien.

UPDATE: Guess I'll revert your changes for now. Please feel free to roll them forward with an explanation backed by links to relevant Wikipedia guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murzwin (talk • contribs) 19:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Murzwin (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Discussion over time at . The last entry there sums it up best: fan images are not a WP:RS. -- Elphion (talk) 19:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the link and sorry for the little delay! I've followed the advice of De728631 and added the "(fan art, drawn after Tolkien's writings)" clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murzwin (talk • contribs) 19:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

 * These are not notable images and have no reliable source; they have no business in WP articles. -- Elphion (talk) 14:43, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

 * How does one define the drawings' "notability"? I guess not through a single-handed decision? Do you believe https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Faramir-tj01.JPG/368px-Faramir-tj01.JPG with a heavily distorted skull/face geometry (from the Spanish/French article) is more notable? Also, both of the removed drawings have been previously published on DeviantArt: https://www.deviantart.com/murzwin/art/Faramir-785712653 and https://www.deviantart.com/murzwin/art/Lady-Finduilas-of-Gondor-of-Dol-Amroth-785237390 (the color version of Finduilas – does that one work better?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Murzwin (talk • contribs) 16:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

End moved discussion Elphion (talk) 18:08, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I do not edit the Spanish or French WPs, so I won't speak to their guidelines for allowing fan art. As explained above, the English WP discourages fan art because the artists are not recognized authorities on Tolkien's vision, and the generally self-published repositories (like DeviantArt) are about as far as you can get from WP:RS. WP is an encyclopedia; it was never meant to be an exhibition space for contributed artwork. -- Elphion (talk) 18:08, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

 * I know The Lord of the Rings rather well, for I have read it many times and it's been my favourite book since 1988. Thus, I know virtually everything J.R.R. Tolkien has written about Faramir. Faramir had grey eyes: "Doubt was in the grey eyes that gazed steadily at Frodo". (The Two Towers, Book 4, Ch. The Window on the West). He had raven hair: "... and their hair, raven and golden..." (The Return of the King, Book 6, Ch. The Steward and the King). He was а young man: "... to tell this grave young man..."  (The Two Towers, Book 4, Ch. The Window on the West). His appearance was like his father's: "...Faramir the younger was like him in looks" (Appendix A, The Stewards) and, according to Tolkien, Denethor had "carven face with its proud bones" (The Return of the King, Book 5, Ch. Minas Tirith). Faramir was handsome:  "... looking on the fair face of Faramir..." (The Houses of the Healing, Book 5, Ch. The Return of the King). And Faramir was beardless. Tolkien wrote that elves' descendants were beardless and Faramir was a descendant of Imrazor and elf Mithrellas: "... there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless), and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth..." (Unfinished Tales, History of Celeborn and Galadriel). Given all of the above, I tried my best to render Faramir following Tolkien's description as closely as possible. I naturally have no intent of promoting myself through WP; my goal was to exactly create an image of Faramir according to the book, which is unfortunately not the case with most of the art found on the Internet. -- Murzwin (talk) 14:56, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

 * I'm sure that's all true. But it doesn't answer my points above. WP:RS is the essence of Wikipedia. A person's opinion, no matter how well-informed, is not by itself a reliable source. -- Elphion (talk) 17:25, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of First..Last in infobox
I've restored the status quo ante as we'd already had a discussion on the matter - there seems no point whatsoever on messing about with the infobox with details with Lord of the Rings. The whole thing is one book. I suggest we just say it's in Lord of the Rings and leave it at that. The fact that the publisher divided it into 3 parts and gave them names isn't terribly relevant to the character. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Battle of the Pelennor Fields.svg

title: Talk:Faramir


text:
Landlord

A landlord is the owner of a house, apartment, condominium, land, or real estate which is rented or leased to an individual or business, who is called a tenant (also a lessee or renter). When a juristic person is in this position, the term landlord is used. Other terms include lessor and owner. The term landlady may be used for the female owners. The manager of a pub in the United Kingdom, strictly speaking a licensed victualler, is referred to as the landlord/landlady. In political economy it refers to the owner of natural resources alone (e.g., land, not buildings) from which an economic rent, a form of passive income, is the income received.

History

The concept of a landlord may be traced back to the feudal system of manoralism (seignorialism), where a landed estate is owned by a Lord of the Manor (mesne lords), usually members of the lower nobility which came to form the rank of knights in the high medieval period, holding their fief via subinfeudation, but in some cases the land may also be directly subject to a member of higher nobility, as in the royal domain directly owned by a king, or in the Holy Roman Empire imperial villages directly subject to the emperor. The medieval system ultimately continues the system of villas and latifundia (peasant-worked broad farmsteads) of the Roman Empire.

In modern times, "landlord" describes any individual, or entity such as a government body or an institution, who charges rent to a person living in a home they do not own.

Owner and tenant responsibilities
A rental agreement, or lease, is the contract defining such terms as the price paid, penalties for late payments, the length of the rental or lease, and the amount of notice required before either the homeowner or tenant cancels the agreement. In general, responsibilities are given as follows: the homeowner is responsible for making repairs and performing property maintenance, and the tenant is responsible for keeping the property clean and safe.

Many owners hire a property management company to take care of all the details of renting their property out to a tenant. This usually includes advertising the property and showing it to prospective tenants, negotiating and preparing the written leases or license agreements, and then, once rented, collecting rent from the tenant and performing repairs as needed.

United States
In the United States, residential homeowner–tenant disputes are primarily governed by state law (not federal law) regarding property and contracts. State law and, in some places, city law or county law, sets the requirements for eviction of a tenant. Generally, there are a limited number of reasons for which a landlord or landlady can evict his or her tenant before the expiration of the tenancy, though at the end of the lease term the rental relationship can generally be terminated without giving any reason. Some cities, counties, and states have laws establishing the maximum rent a landlord can charge, known as rent control, or rent regulation, and related eviction. There is also an implied warranty of habitability, whereby a landlord must maintain safe, decent and habitable housing, meeting minimum safety requirements such as smoke detectors and a locking door. The most common disputes result from either the landlord's failure to provide services or the tenant's failure to pay rent—the former can also lead to the latter. The withholding of rent is justifiable cause for eviction, as often explained in the lease. City ordinances can also play a role in renting policy, such as the rise in source-of-income anti-discrimination ordinances. Tenants unions also affect housing policy when organized politically.

Canada
In Canada, residential homeowner–tenant disputes are primarily governed by provincial law (not federal law) regarding property and contracts. Provincial law sets the requirements for eviction of a tenant. Generally, there are a limited number of reasons for which a landlord can evict a tenant. Some provinces have laws establishing the maximum rent a landlord can charge, known as rent control, or rent regulation, and related eviction. There is also an implied warranty of habitability, whereby a landlord must maintain safe, decent and habitable housing, meeting minimum safety requirements.

Residential rental market (tenancies)
Private sector renting is largely governed by many of the Landlord and Tenant Acts, in particular the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 which sets bare minimum standards in tenants' rights against their landlords. Another key statute is the Housing Act 2004. Rents can be freely increased at the end of a usual six-month duration, on proper notice given to the tenant. A Possession Order under the most common type, the assured shorthold tenancy (AST) is usually obtainable after eight weeks/two months of unpaid rent, and at the court's discretion after serving the tenant with a Section 8 notice (under the Housing Act 1988 as amended) for a lesser period for all assured tenancies, and on other grounds which defer to the landlord's ownership of the property. If the tenancy is an AST then any possession order will not take effect until six months has passed into the initial tenancy. A tenancy of someone who has been in occupation since before 15 January 1989 usually, if not a shorthold from the outset following their inception from 1980 onwards, may be a "regulated tenancy" with many more rights, especially under the Rent Act 1977 and Protection from Eviction Act 1977, introduced by the Third Wilson ministry.

Each house in multiple occupation, a unit the law does not regard it as a single household having more than three tenants, is subject to enhanced regulations including the Housing Act 2004. A council-issued licence to be a landlord of such a unit is always required in some local authorities (in others, limited to the larger statutory examples).

Residential leasehold
Tenancies above a couple of years are normally called leases and tend to be lengthy; if more than seven years a new leasehold estate must be registered. These are governed by few of the above rules and are in longer examples deliberately more akin to full ownership than tenancies, in general. They seldom require a sizeable ground rent. The law has not regulated hefty break/resale charges nor does it prevent the sale of leasehold houses; in the 2010s certain of these proposals have been widely consulted upon and are being drafted. Broadly, legislation allows such lessees (tenants) to club together to gain the Right to Manage, and the right to buy the landlord's interest (to collectively enfranchise). It allows them individually to extend their leases for a new, smaller sum ("premium"), which if the tenants have enfranchised will not normally be demanded/recommended every 15–35 years. Notice requirements and forms tend to be strict. In smaller examples the tenant, depending on a simple mathematical division of the building, may be able to enfranchise individually. Statute of 1925 implies into nearly all leases (tenancies at low rent and at a premium (fine, initial large sum)) of property that they can be sold (by the lessee, assigned); reducing any restriction to one whereby the landlord may apply standard that is "reasonable" vetting, without causing major delay. This is often known as the "statutory qualified covenant on assignment/alienation".

In the overall diminishing domain of social housing, exceptionally, lessees widely acquire over time the Right to Buy for a fixed discount on the market price of the home.

Commercial (business) leases and tenancies
In commercial property much of the law, especially as to disputes and basic responsibilities, is based on freedom of contract of the common law including the implied terms of precedent decisions of wide-ranging case law such as the meaning of "good and substantial repair". Implied principles include "non-derogation from grant" and "quiet enjoyment". All businesses which are tenants (lessees) must decide whether to contract in or outside of Part II of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 which gives them "business security of tenure". If not, it generally applies by default. This "security of tenure" is expressly subject to common reasons and associated mechanisms for a landlord to obtain back the premises. If a landlord is selling a block and a qualifying tenant occupies more than 50%, the tenant should be given the right of first refusal at the asking price to buy the block. As in most jurisdictions the law on rigorous adherence to lease terms on unlawful subletting and assignment can be strictly enforced, resulting in financial and premises loss if broken. Failure to repay a rent demand, unlike residential, can result in direct landlord's repossession ("peaceable re-entry") through a commercial landlord's right to the use of "self-help" evictions. The taking of a tenant's goods without a court-issued warrant (flowing from a court order or outstanding tax demand) (distress) has been banned.

Land ownership
The concept of land ownership is not universal. Many Native American tribes did not view land as a commodity whereas many Europeans colonists did. Ownership of land in the pre-colonial Americas varied from group to group, but many Native American societies had communal and individual land.

Some European scholars were also skeptical of land ownership, such as Adam Smith and Henry George. Smith said about landlords, "As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords—like all other men—love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for their land’s natural product." George believed land belonged to everyone and supported a public tax on economic rent, which he believed would be so profitable that all other taxes would be abolished.

Monopolies
Another common criticism of landlords is the tendency for monopolization. Without regulation, corporations are able to use their purchasing power to buy up housing stock. In a single Atlanta zip code, up to 90% of the houses sold between January 2011 and June 2012 were purchased by instituitional investors. Corporate landlords are able to buy foreclosed houses and rent the house back to the original owner. Another form of corporate monopolization and housing are company towns, where one corporation owns the vast majority of housing and businesses. Since these corporations employ most of the residents of the town, they are able to raise rent and lower wages during a recession.

Slum landlord
Renters (tenants or other licensees) at the lowest end of the payment scale may be in social or economic difficulty and suffer significant social stigma as a consequence. Due to lack of alternative options, such renters are often the victims of unscrupulous owners of unsafe and decrepit properties who neglect their responsibility to maintain the property.

The terms "slumlord", "slum landlord", or "ghetto landlord" is used to describe landlords of large numbers of such properties, often holding a virtual local monopoly. Public improvement or major private investment can improve such areas. In extreme situations, government compulsory purchase powers in many countries enable slum clearance to replace or renovate the worst of neighbourhoods.

Accidental landlord
The term 'accidental landlord' is used for landlords who do not initially intend to become a landlord but have a spare property (from inheriting it, moving in with a partner, or unable to sell when moving), and then choose to lease the property instead of selling it.

Incentives and disincentives
The incentive is to obtain a good rental yield (profit) and prospect of property price inflation. The disincentives are the locally varying rights of tenants and duties of landlords in repair/maintenance and administration — and keynote risks (tenant disputes, damage, neglect, loss of rent, insurance inavailability/disputes, economic slump, increased rate of interest on any mortgage, and negative equity or loss of investment). Net income (yield) and capital growth from letting (renting out) particularly in leveraged buy to let, is subject to idiosyncratic risk, which is considered objectively intensified for a highly leveraged investor limited to a small number of similar profile homes, of narrow rental market appeal in areas lacking economic resilience.

Security for rent and extra fees
A landlord or their agent can decide to collect a security deposit (and/or in some jurisdictions such as parts of the US, a move-in/administration fee). A barrier if high and a relative attractive if low in many markets for a tenant, it is rarely debated in pre-tenancy term negotiations. In some jurisdictions either or both are banned in the original sense. Instead, a landlord's loss of rent/comprehensive damage insurance may be factored into the rent demanded and/or a special type of deposit, a regulated sum of money as a bond (protected security deposit) from the tenant held by a registered third party (such as certain realty agents) may be permissible. A deposit is normally by law to be offset against arrears (rent deficits) and damage by or failures to clean/repair by the tenant.

Licensed victualler
In the United Kingdom the owner and/or manager of a pub (public house) is usually called the "landlord/landlady" or "publican", the latter properly the appellation of a Roman public contractor or tax farmer. In more formal situations, the term used is licensed victualler or simply "licensee".

The Licensed Trade Charity, formed in 2004 from the merger of the Society of Licensed Victuallers and Licensed Victualler's National Homes, exists to serve the retirement needs of Britain's pub landlords. The charity also runs three private schools in Ascot and Reading in Berkshire and Sayers Common in Sussex. As well as having normal full fee paying students, Licensed Victuallers' School in Ascot provides discounted education prices for the children of landlords and others in the catering industry.

Landlord associations
There are significant associations of landlords in various countries. These associations/societies provide support for their members in facing a range of issues by providing a means of mutual support, and also lobby relevant authorities and parliament with regard to the details and implementation of residential and some commercial tenancy legislation.

Australia
Numerous landlord associations exist in Australia. These associations should be distinguished from the class of property owner associations representing the 'big end of town' — the owners of major buildings and very large residential housing complexes, such as the Property Council of Australia.

 * Property Owners Association of Australia (POAA)
 * Property Owners Association of Victoria (POAVIC)
 * POAQ – Property Owners Association of Queensland
 * Property Owners Association of NSW
 * Property Owners Association of Western Australia
 * Landlords Association of South Australia

United Kingdom
National Residential Landlords Association (NRLA) has now formed from a merger of the two following organisations as of 31/3/2020:

 * Residential Landlords Association (RLA)
 * National Landlords Association (NLA)

Related occupations

 * Building superintendent
 * Landowner
 * Property manager

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Landlord


text:
Orange Juice (band)

Orange Juice were a Scottish jangle pop band founded in the Glasgow suburb of Bearsden as the Nu-Sonics in 1976. They became Orange Juice in 1979, and became perhaps the most important band in the Scottish independent music scene that emerged in the post-punk era, inspired by contemporary punk bands including Subway Sect, Television, and Buzzcocks but also 1960s acts, most notably the Byrds and the Velvet Underground. Musically, the band brought together styles and genres that often appeared incongruous, for example, country, disco and punk.

The band released their first singles during 1980 and 1981 on the independent Postcard Records label founded by Alan Horne, along with fellow Scottish bands Josef K and Aztec Camera. Orange Juice's 'neo acoustic', jangly guitar sound – as evident in singles including "Blue Boy" and "Simply Thrilled Honey" – came to define 'The Postcard Sound' that directly influenced acts as diverse as the Bluebells, Haircut One Hundred and the Smiths.

Despite their association with the independent scene, the band signed to the major label Polydor Records in 1981 and recorded their first album, You Can't Hide Your Love Forever for them. However, internal tensions led to splits in the band in late 1981, with their second album, released in late 1982, showing more pop sensibilities and combining their guitar-based sound with disco influences. The band's only top 40 hit, "Rip It Up" was achieved with the aid of the synthesizer – it was the first hit to use the Roland TB-303. "Rip It Up" reached number 8 on the UK Singles Chart in February 1983. Subsequent singles failed to chart as highly, but the band continued to be critically acclaimed, finally splitting up in January 1985 after a gig for the UK miners' strike. Their three albums have been subsequently reissued and remastered on several occasions, with a major career-spanning box set Coals to Newcastle released in 2010.

Edwyn Collins pursued a successful solo career following the band's split, whilst other members James Kirk, David McClymont, Malcolm Ross and Zeke Manyika have had lower-profile solo releases. The original line-up of the band reunited once in 2008 to be honoured for their influence on Scottish music, but the band has never reformed.

Origins: The Nu Sonics
Orange Juice had their origin in the Nu Sonics, formed by Edwyn Collins with college friend Alan Duncan (on bass) in 1976: the band was named after the affordable Burns nu-sonic guitar used by Collins. Two students in the year below them – Steven Daly and James Kirk, previously in punk band, The Machetes – were drafted into the band in 1977, with a fifth member, Geoff Taylor, playing drums. A first gig was held in the Silver Thread in Paisley in November 1977, with Daly on lead vocals. Daly subsequently shifted to drums, and further local gigs followed as a four-piece, including one supporting Steel Pulse at Satellite City in January 1978, alongside Johnny and the Self-Abusers, later to be known as Simple Minds. Duncan left the band after a gig at Hardgate Town Hall, leaving the remaining members to search for a new bass player.

The Postcard years
Shortly after Duncan's departure, one of Collins' colleagues in the Glasgow Parks Department, David McClymont, joined the band on bass, and the band was rechristened as Orange Juice. Collins, Kirk, McClymont and Daly's first gig as Orange Juice occurred in April 1979 in the Glasgow School of Art refectory. At another early gig at Teviot Row House at the University of Edinburgh was recorded by Malcolm Ross of Josef K, and one track from this (Kirk's "Felicity") was pressed as a flexi-disc to be distributed with a planned fanzine to be called 'Strawberry Switchblade ', a name that later inspired and was adopted for a band formed by friends of the group and notably Alan Horne, the manager of Postcard Records. Horne planned the fanzine with Collins in 1979 primarily as a conduit to release Orange Juice's music. The fanzine never appeared, though some copies of the flexi were given away in the Ten Commandments fanzine run by Robert Hodgens (of the Bluebells).

Daly left shortly after the Teviot Row gig, joining local punk act Fun 4. Daly was replaced in Orange Juice by Chris Gordon on drums, but was persuaded back to record the band's debut single "Falling and Laughing" for Postcard after Gordon suffered from stage fright at a number of gigs. The debut single was recorded in December 1979 in Strathaven, with Malcolm Ross co-producing and adding guitar to both the A-side and the playful and instrumental B-side "Moscow", the latter recorded as a tentative 'theme tune' for the coming 1980 Moscow Olympics. Fewer than 1,000 copies of "Falling and Laughing" were pressed, and most included copies of the "Felicity" flexi: 200 also included a postcard of the band. The wrap-round cover and amateur packaging established Postcard's home-spun aesthetic, with the label's "Sound of Young Scotland" tagline marking it out as something of a reaction to much of the seriousness and angst of post-punk. Released in February 1980, "Falling and Laughing" was Postcard's signature tune: lyrically and musically, it celebrated the innocence of youth and was very much at odds with much contemporary independent music, combining a disco bass-line purloined from an ELO song with jangly guitars reminiscent of the Velvet Underground.

"Falling and Laughing" immediately marked out Postcard Records as a label to watch, and subsequent releases by Josef K and Aztec Camera consolidated its reputation as being at the cutting-edge of a new wave of Scottish pop. But it was Orange Juice that came to embody the "Sound of Young Scotland", with Collins' on-stage behaviour, charity-shop chic and occasional self-parody combining camp aesthetics with a subversive rejection of macho rock and roll cliché. Live, performances could be shambolic, with guitars often out of tune, and songs often aborted as drums, bass and guitar raced away from each other. Occasionally, crowds were hostile towards the band, seeing them as effeminate and anti-rock. Nonetheless, gigs in Glasgow and then Edinburgh began to attract a sizable fan-base: notable gigs with Josef K were sold as 'Postcard' nights, including the infamous 'Funky Glasgow Now' show at Glasgow Technical College in April 1980.

The band's debut single was followed by a series of well-received Postcard 7" releases: "Blue Boy", "Simply Thrilled Honey" and "Poor Old" Soul in 1980 and 1981. Selling sufficiently to appear prominently in the independent charts, these garnered considerable interest from the London-based music press, much of which appeared charmed by the band's on-stage antics. Invitations to record two sessions for Radio One DJ's John Peel followed, and, in the autumn of 1980, the band was invited on a national tour by Peel-favourites The Undertones, gaining further exposure. One of these gigs was at Rock City in Nottingham: coming on as support band, Orange Juice became the first band to play this now-legendary venue (on 11 Dec 1980).

Demos for an album on Postcard were completed in a single day at Hellfire Studios in Glasgow in 1981, with the working title Ostrich Churchyard. Seeking better distribution to get the debut album to a larger audience, Postcard approached Rough Trade Records with these demos, with Rough Trade agreeing to fund recording sessions in London in the summer of 1981, promising to distribute the debut album whilst allowing Postcard to retain artistic freedom. The album was recorded in Regent's Park Studios in London in August 1981, under the auspices of Scritti Politti producer Adam Kidron, who sought to augment the band's guitar-based sound with backing singers, horns and keyboards, emulating the sound that had made Scritti's "The "Sweetest Girl"" a modest crossover hit. Afterwards, Orange Juice took the tapes from these sessions and signed to Polydor, hastening the demise of Postcard (with a scheduled fifth Orange Juice single on Postcard, "Wan Light", failing to ever see the light of day). The Postcard Records-era history of Orange Juice is featured in the 2015 documentary film Big Gold Dream.

Debut album
Debut album You Can't Hide Your Love Forever was not released until February 1982, and received mixed reviews, with the use of backing singers and synthesizers anathema to some of the band's long-term fans. Retrospectively, however, the album is often cited as a classic of the era and a key influence on the C86 generation and beyond. By the stage the album was released, the band in any case had a new line-up: in August 1981, Josef K split up, with Collins asking guitarist Malcolm Ross to join the band, making it a five-piece. This caused some ructions, with Daly and Kirk reportedly feeling the band was losing its original sound (Daly in particularly having publicly objected to the first Polydor single "L.O.V.E... Love", a cover of the Al Green classic, released in October 1981). Collins was reported in the press as siding with Kirk and Daly before deciding to leave with Malcolm Ross and bass player David McLymont. Collins, Ross and McLymont performed as a three-piece, with stand-in drummers, on a couple of Autumn 1981 gigs before Zeke Manyika made his live debut in January 1982 at the London Venue. As such, the line-up that promoted You Can't Hide Your Love Forever on tour in early 1982 was not the line-up that recorded it: ignoring older material penned by James Kirk (e.g. "Felicity", "Wan Light", "You Old Eccentric", "Three Cheers for Our Side") the band often used dates to debut new songs that overtly more pop in style, including a cover of The Staple Singers' "I'll Take You There", future single "I Can't Help Myself" (with its telling reference to The Four Tops), and "In Spite of It All", later renamed and issued as the single "Two Hearts Together" in the summer of 1982. The latter single was released as a double A-side with "Hokoyo", a song co-written by Zeke Manyika and featuring lyrics in Shona, showing the band moving away from its original guitar-based sound and towards a more varied and eclectic musical palette.

Rip It Up and chart success
Despite increasing exposure on TV and media, both of Orange Juice's 1982 singles failed to deliver the anticipated hit. However. the album Rip It Up issued in November 1982 was to spawn the single of the same name, which reached number 8 on the UK Singles Chart in February 1983. Referencing both Chic and the Buzzcocks, the single cemented Orange Juice as one of the brightest bands in the 'new pop' scene. The single was promoted through two memorable Top of the Pops performances, including one where bass player David McClymont appeared to fall into the crowd, apparently inebriated, gaining them a ban from the programme. DJ Janice Long championed the band, commissioning two further Radio One Sessions in March 1983 (neither commercially released, and assumed missing from the BBC archive), while magazines including Smash Hits continued to showcase the band (its editor Ian Cranna becoming the band's manager). However, the follow-up single to "Rip It Up", "Flesh of My Flesh", failed to build on its success, peaking at number 41 in the spring of 1983.

Later years
New single "Place in my Heart" was scheduled for October 1983 as a teaser for an album that would come out the following month. However, both were pulled following Ross and McClymont leaving the group, citing 'musical differences': the last appearance of the four-piece Orange Juice was their open-air festival appearance at Victoria Park, Hackney 6 Aug 1984. Salvaged from the album sessions, the six-track mini-album Texas Fever, issued in March 1984, was critically feted, but failed to spawn a hit with its only single, "Bridge".

From this point Orange Juice had a core line-up of Collins and Manyika, who proceeded to record Orange Juice's final album, The Orange Juice, with Clare Kenny on bass, and with Johnny Britten on guitar and Paul Herd on bass joining the live set-up. Produced by Dennis Bovell, the album was named with reference to the third album by The Velvet Underground. Again critically acclaimed, the album's blue-eyed soul influences presaged other 1980s Scottish acts taking inspiration from this genre, including Wet Wet Wet and Hue and Cry. The album's lead single "What Presence?!" was notable for a video by Derek Jarman but also failed to break into the top 40, peaking at 47, while prophetic single "Lean Period" just crept into the top 75. The album was promoted via 'The Artisans' tour in the Autumn of 1984, with Steve Skinner replacing Britten on guitar, but by this stage venues and crowds were becoming smaller (and a final London Lyceum date in December 1984 was cancelled because of poor sales). Relations with Polydor became strained by the fact Orange Juice could not tour internationally because of Zeke Manyika's immigration status, with the release of a third single from the album vetoed as the record label focused on other acts, to Collins' vocal disapproval. At the same time, Collins' decision to release material with former schoolfriend Paul Quinn on Alan Horne's new Swampland Records label further soured the relationship with Polydor.

The band's final show was in January 1985 at a gig for the UK miners' strike, where they came on as the first act (before Aztec Camera and Everything but the Girl), announcing it was their last gig to a half-empty venue. Their final song was "Rock and Roll (I Gave You the Best Years of My Life)", a cover of a Kevin Johnson song. Following the split, Manyika recorded a solo album for Polydor, who also released an Orange Juice 'greatest hits' album In a Nutshell in 1985, while Collins signed for Creation Records the same year, with his solo debut single "Don't Shilly Shally" released on the Creation-offshoot Elevation Records in 1986.

Legacy
While never enjoying prolonged commercial success, Orange Juice were to exercise considerable influence over the indie pop and indie rock scenes that followed in the UK. Most notably, commentators often noted the debt that The Smiths owed to Collins' lyrics, while a number of other later 1980s bands were to cite Orange Juice and other Postcard Records acts as an influence, with the C86 scene featuring numerous acts who either covered Orange Juice songs (such as "The Wedding Present") or who borrowed elements of their sound (such as Mighty Mighty, The Chesterf!elds, The June Brides, The Bodines).

Internationally, Orange Juice also inspired the neo-acoustic movement in Japan, with the band Flipper's Guitar naming their 1989 debut album after one of James Kirk's compositions, "Three Cheers for Our Side".

In the 1990s, the rejuvenated Postcard Records issued a collection of the band's early singles and in 1993 finally released the demos for the first album Ostrich Churchyard alongside a reissue of "Blue Boy", while Polydor collected the best of their major releases on a new 'best of' compilation, The Esteemed – The Very Best of Orange Juice.

In the 2000s, guitar bands including Franz Ferdinand, Hatcham Social, The Drums, and The Cribs proclaimed Orange Juice as an influence, triggering renewed interest in the band. Franz Ferdinand's label, the Domino Recording Company, responded by issuing re-releases of all four Polydor albums on vinyl and CD, with a major 6 CD/DVD collection Coals to Newcastle released in 2010.

Edwyn Collins continues to perform Orange Juice songs at his live shows. Though Malcolm Ross was initially part of Collins' live band, and Kirk, Manyika, and McLymont continue to record and perform intermittently, the band has never reformed. To date, the original line-up of the band has reunited publicly just once, in 2008, when they were honoured for their influence on Scottish music by the Nordoff Robbins musical trust.

Discography

 * You Can't Hide Your Love Forever (1982)
 * Rip It Up (1982)
 * The Orange Juice (1984)

title: Orange Juice (band)


text:
Casimir of Poland

Casimir of Poland may refer to:
 * Any ruler of Poland named Casimir:
 * Duke Casimir I the Restorer (1016–58)
 * High Duke Casimir II the Just (1138–94)
 * King Casimir III the Great (1310–70)
 * King Casimir IV Jagiellon (1427–92)
 * Saint Casimir (1458–84), Polish–Lithuanian prince

title: Casimir of Poland


text:
Hyacinth of Poland

Hyacinth (Święty Jacek or Jacek Odrowąż; c. 1185 – 15 August 1257) was a Polish Dominican priest and missionary who worked to reform the women's monasteries in his native Poland. Educated in Paris and Bologna, he was a Doctor of Sacred Studies.

Life
Called the "Apostle of the North", Hyacinth was the son of Eustachius Koński of the noble family of Odrowąż. He was born in 1185 at the castle of Lanka, at Kamień, in Silesia, Poland. A near relative of Ceslaus, he made his studies in notable cities: Kraków, Prague, and Bologna, and at the latter place merited the title of Doctor of Law and Divinity. On his return to Poland he was given a prebend at Sandomierz, a medieval centre of administration in the south-eastern part of the country. He subsequently accompanied his uncle Ivo Konski, the Bishop of Kraków, to Rome.

While in Rome, he witnessed a miracle performed by Dominic of Osma, and became a Dominican friar, along with Ceslaus and two attendants of the Bishop of Kraków, Herman and Henry. In 1219 Pope Honorius III invited Dominic and his followers to take up residence at the ancient Roman basilica of Santa Sabina, which they did by early 1220. Before that time, the friars had only a temporary residence in Rome at the convent of San Sisto Vecchio which Honorius III had given to Dominic in about 1218, intending it to be used for a reformation of Roman nuns under Dominic's guidance. Hyacinth and his companions were among the first to enter the convent. They were also the first alumni of the studium of the Dominican Order at Santa Sabina out of which would grow the 16th century College of Saint Thomas at Santa Maria sopra Minerva, which became the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in the 20th century. After an abbreviated novitiate, Hyacinth and his companions received the religious habit of the Order from Dominic himself in 1220.

The young friars were then sent back to their homeland to establish the Dominican Order in Poland and Kyiv. As Hyacinth and his three companions traveled back to Kraków, he set up new monasteries with his companions as superiors, until finally he was the only one left to continue on to Kraków. Hyacinth went throughout Northern Europe spreading the faith. He died in the year 1257. Tradition holds that he also evangelized throughout Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Prussia, Scotland, Russia, Turkey, and Greece. However, these travels are heavily disputed and are not supported by the earliest hagiographies of Hyacinth.

Legend
One of the major miracles attributed to Hyacinth came about during the 1240 Siege of Kiev. As the friars prepared to flee the invading forces, Hyacinth went to save the ciborium containing the Eucharist from the tabernacle in the monastery's chapel, when he heard the voice of Mary, asking him to take her, too.

Hyacinth lifted the large, stone statue of Mary, as well as the ciborium. He was easily able to carry both, even though the statue weighed far more than he could normally lift. Thus, he saved them both. For this reason, he is usually shown holding a monstrance (though they did not come into use until several centuries later) and a statue of Mary.

The Polish exclamation Święty Jacku z pierogami! ("St. Hyacinth with his dumplings!") is an old-time saying, a call for help in some hopeless circumstance. It has derived from two legends. One of them is about his visit on July 13, 1238, to Kościelec. During his visit, a hailstorm broke out, destroying crops and leaving people with the terrible prospect of poverty and famine. Hyacinth told them to pray. The next day, the crops were miraculously restored. The people then treated Hyacinth to pierogi made from those crops as a token of gratitude. The second legend mentions Hyacinth feeding people with pierogi during a famine caused by the Mongol invasion of 1241.

Veneration
The tomb of Hyacinth is in the Basilica of the Holy Trinity in Kraków, Poland, in a chapel that is dedicated to him.

Hyacinth was canonized on 17 April 1594 by Pope Clement VIII, and his feast is celebrated on 17 August. In 1686 Pope Innocent XI named him a patron of Lithuania. He is the patron saint of those in danger of drowning and [weight lifting.

Among notable churches in North America dedicated to Hyacinth of Poland is the Basilica of St. Hyacinth in Chicago, Illinois.

title: Hyacinth of Poland


text:
Split vote

A split vote is normally used synonymously with "deadlocked", "hung", or "evenly split" vote. It indicates a vote in which no decision can be made, as neither side has the majority.

The term can be used to indicate dissent by as little as a single vote, if a unanimous vote is required.

If a casting vote is available, this may be used to break the deadlock. In other cases it may result in situations such as hung juries or hung parliaments.

A split vote may arise from vote splitting, which occurs in an election when the existence of two or more similar candidates reduces the votes received by each of them, reducing the chances of any one of them winning against another, significantly different, candidate. In systems that require a winning candidate to receive a majority of votes, this may result in a runoff election.

title: Split vote


text:
Stanislaus of Szczepanów

Stanislaus of Szczepanów (Stanisław ze Szczepanowa; 26 July 1030 – 11 April 1079) was a Polish Catholic prelate who served as Bishop of Kraków and was martyred by the Polish King Bolesław II the Bold. Stanislaus is venerated in the Catholic Church as Stanislaus the Martyr (as distinct from the 16th-century Jesuit, Stanislaus Kostka).

Life
According to hagiographic tradition, Stanislaus, or Stanisław in Polish, was born at Szczepanów, a village in Lesser Poland, the only son of the noble and pious Wielisław and Bogna. He was educated at a cathedral school in Gniezno (then the capital of Poland) and later, probably at Paris. On his return to Poland, Stanislaus was ordained a priest by Lambert II Suła, Bishop of Kraków. Following his ordination, he was given a canonry in Kraków and became known for his preaching. He was subsequently made pastor of Czembocz near Kraków, canon and preacher at the cathedral, and later, vicar-general.

After the bishop's death (1072), Stanislaus was elected his successor but accepted the office only at the explicit command of Pope Alexander II. Stanislaus was one of the earliest native Polish bishops. He also became a ducal advisor and had some influence on Polish politics.

Stanislaus' major accomplishments included bringing papal legates to Poland, and reestablishment of a metropolitan see in Gniezno. The latter was a precondition for Duke Bolesław's coronation as king, which took place in 1076. Stanislaus then encouraged King Bolesław to establish Benedictine monasteries to aid in the Christianization of Poland.

Legend
Stanislaus initial conflict with King Bolesław was over a land dispute. Stanislaus had purchased for the diocese a piece of land on the banks of the Vistula River near Lublin from a certain Peter (Piotr), but after Piotr's death the land had been claimed by his family. The King ruled for the claimants, but according to legend, Stanislaus resurrected Piotr so that he could confirm that he had sold the land to the bishop.

According to Augustin Calmet, an 18th-century Bible scholar, Stanislaus asked the King for three days to produce his witness, Piotr. The King and the court were said to have laughed at the absurd request, but the King granted Stanislaus the three days. Stanislaus spent them in ceaseless prayer and, dressed in full bishop's regalia, went with a procession to the cemetery where Piotr had been buried three years earlier. He had Piotr's grave dug up until his remains were discovered. Then, before a multitude of witnesses, Stanislaus made Piotr rise, and Piotr did so.

Piotr was then dressed in a cloak and brought before King Bolesław to testify on Stanislaus' behalf. The dumbfounded court heard Piotr reprimand his three sons and testify that Stanislaus had indeed paid for the land. Unable to give any other verdict, the King dismissed the suit against the bishop. Stanislaus asked Piotr whether he would remain alive, but Piotr declined and so was laid to rest once more in his grave and was reburied.

Chastisement of Bolesław

A more substantial conflict with King Bolesław arose after a prolonged war in Ruthenia, when weary warriors deserted and went home, alarmed at tidings that their overseers were taking over their estates and wives. According to Wincenty Kadłubek, the King punished the soldiers' faithless wives very cruelly and was criticized for it by Bishop Stanislaus. Jan Długosz, however, writes that the bishop had in fact criticized the King for his own sexual immorality. Gallus Anonymus, in his laconic account, only condemned both the "traitor bishop" and the violent king.

Whatever the actual cause of the conflict between them, the result was that the bishop excommunicated King Bolesław, which included forbidding the saying of the Divine Office by the canons of Kraków Cathedral in case Bolesław attended. The excommunication aided the King's political opponents, and the King accused Bishop Stanislaus of treason and the royal court found him guilty.

Martyrdom
King Bolesław sent his men to execute Bishop Stanislaus but when they didn't dare to touch the bishop, the King decided to kill the bishop himself. He is said to have slain Stanislaus while he was celebrating Mass in the Skałka outside the walls of Kraków. According to Paweł Jasienica: Polska Piastów, it was actually in the Wawel Castle. The guards then cut the bishop's body into pieces and scattered them to be devoured by wild beasts. According to the legend, his members miraculously reintegrated while the pool was guarded by four eagles.

The exact date of Stanislaus's death is uncertain. According to different sources, it was either 11 April or 8 May 1079.

The murder stirred outrage throughout the land and led to the dethronement of King Bolesław II the Generous, who had to seek refuge in Hungary and was succeeded by his brother, Władysław I Herman.

Whether Stanislaus should be regarded as a traitor or a hero remains one of the classic unresolved questions of Polish history. His story has a parallel in the murder of Thomas Becket in 1170 by henchmen of England's King Henry II.

Original sources
There is little information about Stanislaus's life. The only near-contemporary source was a chronicle of Gallus Anonymus, but the author evaded writing details about a conflict with the king. Later sources are the chronicles of Wincenty Kadłubek, and two hagiographies by Wincenty of Kielcza. All contain hagiographic matter.

Veneration as a saint
The cult of Saint Stanislaus the Martyr began immediately upon his death. In 1245 his relics were translated (i.e., moved) to Kraków's Wawel Cathedral. In the early 13th century, Bishop Iwo Odrowąż initiated preparations for Stanislaus' canonization and ordered Wincenty of Kielce to write the martyr's vita. Stanislaus of Kraków was canonized by Pope Innocent IV at Assisi in 1253.

Pope Pius V did not include the saint's feast day in the Tridentine calendar for use throughout the Roman Catholic Church. Subsequently, Pope Clement VIII inserted it, setting it for 7 May, but Kraków observes it on 8 May, a supposed date of the saint's death, having done so since 8 May 1254, when it was attended by many Polish bishops and princes. In 1969, the Church moved the feast to 11 April, considered to be the date of his death in 1079.

As the first native Polish saint, Stanislaus is the patron of Poland and Kraków, and of some Polish dioceses. He shares the patronage of Poland with Saint Adalbert of Prague, Florian, and Our Lady the Queen of Poland.

Wawel Cathedral, which holds the saint's relics, became a principal national shrine. Almost all of the Polish kings from Władysław I the Elbow-high were crowned while they knelt before his sarcophagus, which stands in the middle of the cathedral. In the 17th century, King Władysław IV Vasa commissioned an ornate silver coffin to hold the saint's relics. It was destroyed by Swedish troops during the Deluge but was replaced with a new one c. 1670.

Saint Stanislaus' veneration has had great patriotic importance. In the period of Poland's feudal fragmentation, it was believed that Poland would one day reintegrate as had the members of his body. Half a millennium after Poland had indeed reintegrated, while yet another dismemberment of the polity was underway in the Partitions of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the framers of the Polish Constitution of 3 May 1791, would dedicate this progressive political document to Saint Stanislaus, whose feast day fell close to the date of the Constitution's adoption.

Each year on the first Sunday after 8 May, a procession, led by the Bishop of Kraków, goes out from Wawel to the Church on the Rock. The procession, once a local event, was popularized in the 20th century by Polish Primate Stefan Wyszyński and Archbishop of Kraków, Karol Wojtyła. Wojtyla, as Pope John Paul II, called Saint Stanislaus the patron saint of moral order and wanted his first papal return to Poland to occur in April 1979 in observance of the 900th anniversary to the day of his martyrdom, but the Communist rulers of that time blocked this, causing the visit to be delayed until June of that year.

Roman Catholic churches belonging to Polish communities outside Poland are often dedicated to Saint Stanislaus.

In iconography, Saint Stanislaus is usually depicted as a bishop holding a sword, the instrument of his martyrdom, and sometimes with Piotr rising from the dead at his feet.

Feast Day

 * 25 January – commemoration of translation of relics to Church of Saint Roch,
 * 11 April – commemoration of death anniversary,
 * 7 May – commemoration by (Traditional Roman Catholics),
 * 8 May – main commemoration in Poland,
 * 27 September – commemoration of translation of relics from Skałka to Wawel,
 * 6 October –  commemoration of translation of relics to Esztergom,

title: Stanislaus of Szczepanów