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Talk:List of 21st-century classical composers

Red and blue: criteria for inclusion?

 * This list has both blue and red links, posing the question of selection criteria. Of course if the list is limited to blue links it can then be open to all WP articles on 21st-century classical composers neatly solving the problem. Thoughts? -- Klein zach  12:02, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about this. Allowing redlinks means the list can include composers who don't have articles but really ought to have, but it also encourages the addition of obscure non-notables. If we disallow redlinks, this article might as well be replaced by a category, with the advantage that categories are self-maintaining. As things stand, if I create a new article on a composer I have to consider adding it to: (note the inconsistency of hyphens). And then there's all the other lists such as: ...and so on.
 * List of 21st-century classical composers by name
 * List of 21st-century classical composers by birth date
 * List of 21st century classical composers by death date
 * List of 20th-century classical composers by name
 * List of 20th-century classical composers by birth date
 * List of 20th-century classical composers by death date
 * List of female composers by name
 * List of female composers by birth year
 * List of female composers in the United States during the 20th century
 * List of Irish composers
 * List of Dutch composers

Many composers are on some of these lists but not on others where they would be equally relevant. It occurs to me that using sortable tables would allow the "by name", "by birth date" and "by death date" lists to be combined. But really, what is the purpose of all these lists? For my satisfaction in seeing my favourite composers listed? For the vanity of the composers seeing themselves listed? To increase the link count to individual composers' pages so they don't show up as orphans? Perhaps we should have all the lists deleted and use categories instead.

Having said that, I looked through all the redlinks on this page, and I was able to convert a few of them into blue links by respelling. Of the others, most I have never heard of, and a few are names I know I have heard but I couldn't vouch for their notability. A few, however, do strike me as worthy of articles in their own right: All of the above have, I think, had significant exposure through festivals, radio broadcasts and commercial recordings. Where I have indicated language codes in brackets, they already have articles in other-language Wikipedias, so these articles could potentially be translated.
 * Javier Alvarez
 * Jörg Birkenkötter
 * Rob du Bois (NL)
 * Attila Bozay (HU, DE)
 * Jacques Charpentier (FR)
 * Frank Corcoran (DE)
 * Martin Dalby
 * Paul-Heinz Dittrich (DE)
 * Reinhard Febel (DE)
 * Jennifer Fowler
 * Clemens Gadenstätter
 * Ge Gan-Ru
 * John Maxwell Geddes
 * Detlev Glanert (DE)
 * Denis Gougeon
 * Ragnar Grippe (SV)
 * Ketil Hvoslef (NN, NO, SV)
 * Johannes Kalitzke (DE, NL)
 * Huub Kerstens
 * Otto Ketting (NL)
 * Geert van Keulen (NL)
 * István Láng (HU, DE)
 * Aleksander Lasoń (PL, UK)
 * Reinbert de Leeuw (NL, FR)
 * Otmar Mácha (CS, NL)
 * Georgs Pelēcis
 * Gérard Pesson (FR, ES)
 * Niels Rosing-Schow
 * Jan van Vlijmen (DE, NL)

Now, if we had banned redlinks, I wouldn't have been able to compile the above list, so perhaps redlinks can serve a purpose. What does anyone else think? --Deskford (talk) 14:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 * In general I think redlinks are good, but less good on lists of living people with a high probability of attracting vanity/non-notable entries. So I don't think it's entirely cut-and-dried. For example, it may be a different issue for living composers than for dead ones, or composers born before, say, 1960.  For an example of a list with useful redlinks, I have been using the List of Renaissance composers as a convenient list of articles that need to be written for more than five years now.  But no one is going to be adding their friends, their piano teacher, themselves to that list.  Ideally these list pages would be more than just a list -- for example, each composer could have a line of text after their name, giving their general significance -- which is the beauty of lists versus categories.
 * Most of these list pages need a haircut and trim, but if you wanted to remove redlinked names it might not be a bad idea to maintain a list of them elsewhere (like on the talk page). Antandrus (talk) 15:18, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Hm... Wiki can be somewhat over the top in its lists. One good thing, though: now that Deskford has collated those lists, we can see certain deficiencies.  The hyphenation problem was easy: I have moved the only non-hyphenated one, List of 21st century classical composers by death date -> List of 21st-century classical composers by death date.  Doubt there'll be much complaint about that (though there are a few links in the articles with out the hyphens that need dealing with).

 * However, the question remains: do we actually need all those lists? That depends how important all the data is individually.  In fact, each of the lists has value in different contexts, but each list can be misleading.  Where is Handel placed in the equivalent lists for Baroque?  Germany?  Italy?  England?  Europe?  Actually, personally I don't care but others do and it may even be critical for certain research.  Handel is a famous cosmopolitan of course, but what about less well-known cosmopolitans?  Worse still (in our day) what about a composer who has a sex change?  This is not a question to laugh off: Dr. Josephine Bartland (invented for this example) was born female in Hong Kong in 1960 then had a sex change in the US in 2000 before settling down in Russia as a man, she and he being notable before and after the sex change...  About the only fixed things in this example are DoB and (legal) name assuming they are still alive...  But then even a name can be changed legally and some people are given Wiki articles by their stage name or nom-de-plume.` Worse still, is this person technically a woman before the op?  I ask because the question as to whether to include the entry in List of female composers by name etc would need very, very careful consideration.

 * This is an exceptionally unusual example, granted (but one that will arise one day) but it highlights the problem in the obvious answer: list are only useful if they are maintained. But, who maintains them?  The field we are considering is actually quite specialist (late C20th and early C21st).  The sum total of editors actively involved in major edits in this field is about 12, as far as I am aware, a third of whom are present in this discussion.  If anyone is willing to oversee these lists regularly, fantastic; if not, we have a problem.

 * As far a red-links are concerned, I feel they can be useful but they are not obligatory. If a composer is notable, someone will write their article sooner or later.  Deskford pointed to a more subtle problem: mis-linking by misspellings.  There is also an even more subtle one: John Adams instead of John Adams.  Mis-links due to missing dabs is a hard one since primacy changes.  After all, the modern composer might actually become far more famous that the American Founding Father and the undabbed link could then be made to point to him.  We’ll then have to change all those lists...

 * Antandrus actually highlighted an even more serious problem: self-aggrandisement. It goes beyond that, though: composers (like all artists) are usually assessed after their death, or at least well into their career.  Notability is not automatically established simply because a person has written a great piece of music that is played over and over again in concerts.  Nor even just because another important composer says they are brilliant.  (My own Emily Hall might not be notable, in fact, despite the reasons I stated there.  Likewise Tansy  Davies has been tagged...)   They have to be recognised by many, many independent sources and that isn't easy.  These red-links could just encourage people to write up articles on their favourite new composer of the month, thus creating even more work for the small handful of us.

 * For me, categories are a far simpler solution, since they don't need special attention. As soon as one of the regulars spots a misplaced cat in an article, it can be removed (with a good explanation in the edit summary).  Missing cats are easily added, too.  This beats wading through manually created list after manually created list to spot those people that don't belong and (harder still) those that are missed off...

 * My question then goes from do we actually need all those lists? to do we actually need any of those lists? I'm not convinced we do.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:31, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 * (Addendum: dealt with all the unhyphenated in-article links for the top six in Deskford's list, but the see alsos need to be expanded to include by birth, death and/or name as the case may be). --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:42, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I've compiled both 'all-blue' and 'mixed' lists in the past and while both have their place, I now prefer to put the 'mixed' lists indicating missing coverage under project pages rather than in article space. (An example is The Wagner Project List of article-worthy Wagner singers.) Another important point: there is no reason to have separate lists by name, birth, death dates etc. These can all be combined in a sortable (i.e. rearrangeable) table (see for example List of operas by Krenek.) -- Klein zach  23:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 * That was a timely point: I've just added all the composers highlighted by Deskford to the Contemporary project. Perhaps they should be added to the Composer's project, too?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge
I am suggesting that the three lists be merged into one list table sortable by either name, birth date or death date at the convenience of the reader. (An example of a sortable table is at List of operas by Krenek.) -- Klein zach  03:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Works for me. It's simpler that way, and we don't lose anything -- right?  Antandrus  (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * No, except maybe some sleep . . .-- Klein zach  03:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * It sounds such a sensible suggestion I can't help thinking there must be something wrong with it! Sure, let's do it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I've done a sortable version in userspace, see here. Please tell me if you can see any problems. -- Klein zach  10:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Good idea and the Krenek list works beautifully. However, this new list is very large so it takes ages to re-sort and, unfortunately, FireFox keeps giving me an Unresponsive Script error. It may just be my system though, so others will need to verify.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * It seems to sort OK for me. I've tried it on IE8 and Firefox and each takes a couple of seconds.  I am wondering about a hidden column with the name in surname-first format for sorting, but haven't yet worked out how best to do it.  We could use a template for each entry to simplify things.  There's also the complication of dates like "ca. 1945" and "195?", which sort unpredictably.  I like Antandrus's idea of a one-line summary with each composer as in List of Renaissance composers, so the article becomes a bit more useful than just a plain list.  Still thinking....  --Deskford (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The List of operas by Krenek and similar lists use hidden sorting tags. For example Oskar Kokoschka sorts to K because there is a HS Kokoschka tag. Obviously putting these tags into a list with 1,000+ entries would be hard work! However I've added tags for "ca. 1945" and "195?". -- Klein zach  00:59, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Aha — so that's how it's done! I felt sure there must be a solution already out there, but I was looking in the wrong places.  I guess there's no easy way round the tagging of the 1000+ entries though.  --Deskford (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * OK, IE does work now I try it... must be something to do with my addons in FF. Anyway, it does indeed need a button to sort it by family name, but are you sure editors will know to add HS undefined if they add a name?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm sure they won't, but then the complexity of these tables does deter some drive-by editing.
 * (Fair point --Jubilee♫ clipman 15:45, 18 December 2009 (UTC))
 * If we are going to do more work on the list – BTW can I move it to article space now? – it may be better to check all the blue links (to see they real) and remove the red ones. -- Klein zach  02:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Update: Michael Bednarek has done the name sort tags. I'm moving the new version to this article. -- Klein zach  10:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Good work! I've changed Tan Dun to sort under T.  There are probably other Chinese names that need changing by someone who knows how to identify the family names.  --Deskford (talk) 13:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, this is certainly better than multiple articles! Good work Klein and Michael!  How about the C20th articles too?  Indeed, there are several others out there under our various banners that really need merging like this, eg female composers.  I might have time over the weekend, if no one else does?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  15:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * PS, I doubt there'll be any objections to making the lists by birth and death redirects to this article now. Unless there are names in those that are not here, of course.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  15:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I've just added another 50+ names from the List of 21st-century classical composers by birth date. In the process I've made one or two changes to existing entries, mostly sort keys (e.g. according to his article David Del Tredici should be sorted as Del).  For composers with diacritics in their names, I've omitted the diacritics from the sort key (e.g. François-Bernard Mâche sorts as Mache, Francois-Bernard).  I believe this is normal practice in most languages, though not all. (Swedish, I think, lists letters with diacritics after Z).  Also, composers with names beginning Mc should sort as Mac.  --Deskford (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. Mc and Mac are identical, except that Mc is simply the short form and is mixed with Mac in all listings.  I can legally call my self MacIntyre or McIntyre (my real name) and it makes no odds.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  23:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I've added the composers from List of 21st-century classical composers by death date. Before we redirect the now obsolete list pages, we should move the current page to a more appropriate name, but should it be List of 21st-century classical composers or just List of 21st-century composers?  I note that most of the other lists (female composers, Irish composers, Dutch composers, Renaissance composers &c.) don't include the word "classical" in their title.  When the article has been moved, Template:Composers by era should be updated to point to the new name.  --Deskford (talk) 21:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I've just discovered yet another list: List of composers by name, an undifferentiated list of mostly 20th-century names. We don't need all these lists and they're impossible to maintain! There's also List of modernist composers, and List of acousmatic-music composers, as well as the more specialised List of 20th century Mexican composers and the List of female composers in the United States during the 20th century that I've mentioned before. But my favourite bizarre specialised list must be List of composers who employed pipe music. --Deskford (talk) 21:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Several points here to deal with. First (and foremost), move to List of 21st-century classical composers; the reason being that this defines the article using the commonly accepted term and helps avoid bizarre discussions like this...  Second, all those list need to be pruned back to the bare essentials, mainly by merger.  Lists by nationality can be justified (and have those nations' editors to help maintain them) as can lists of women (since they are a small but growing number, but most of the lists should be merged).  Lists by "genre" or "style" or "-ism" are less easy to defend: how does one define the "-ism", what about composers crossing many "-isms" etc...  I suspect we're stuck with them, however.  List of composers who employed pipe music should be kept for its humourous value!  In fact, it needs more information: how did Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven et al employ bagpipe music?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:01, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

 * After reading that discussion on the Composers project I'm now totally confused as to what "classical" means, but if leaving it in the title of this list keeps people happy I'm not going to object. Some of the -ism lists could usefully be replaced by categories.  As for the pipers — I know there are "bagpipe" effects in some of Haydn's symphonies and quartets, as well as many baroque composers.  There are real bagpipes in some pieces by Leopold Mozart, Nicolas Chédeville, Joseph Bodin de Boismortier, Johann David Heinichen and (I think) Telemann.  --Deskford (talk) 00:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

 * You might try this and this to confuse yourself even more... I know I am totally confused after all that! Haydn probably actually wrote for the bagpipes (or maybe the Northumbrian smallpipes): he wrote for muscial clocks and set a huge number of Scottish folk songs...  Not sure when Beethoven or Schubert took up the pipes though! --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

When the other two lists have been merged we can make them into redirects to the present article. Perhaps the 'death date' one has already been done? -- Klein zach  13:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a merged list from List of 21st-century classical composers by birth date prepared with the intention of also merging from List of 21st-century classical composers by death date, but Deskford beat me to it. I can't comment on the completeness of these merges. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Page move
I've now moved this to List of 21st-century classical composers as per discussions. -- Klein zach  12:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC) BTW I'm not a huge fan of this name, but one problem at a time. . .-- Klein zach  14:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Now working on changing links to point to the new page. Death list now redirects.  I'm still working on the birth list — a few composers remain to be copied over, but I'm trying to verify them as I go, so that we don't end up with too many footballers and politicians in the list.  --Deskford (talk) 19:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Death now redirects? Hopefully either to Heaven or reincarnation rather than Hell! --Jubilee♫ clipman 21:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge completed
I've now added the remaining 50 composers from List of 21st-century classical composers by birth date. These were the ones I had never heard of, or knew nothing about:
 * István Anhalt (1919– )
 * Denis ApIvor (1916–2004)
 * Chaya Arbel (1921– )
 * Claude Baker (1948- )
 * Luca Belcastro (1964- )
 * Cacilda Borges Barbosa (1914– )
 * Keith Burstein (1957- )
 * Daniel Catan (1949- )
 * Evan Chambers (1963- )
 * Juan J. Colomer (1966- )
 * Alexandre Danilevsky (1957- )
 * Robert Davidson (1965- )
 * Patrick Doyle (1953- )
 * Dimitris Dragatakis (1914–2001)
 * Joe Duddell (1973- )
 * Robert Farnon (1917–2005)
 * George Flynn (1937- )
 * Don Freund (1947- )
 * Grigory Frid (1915– )
 * Mehdi Hosseini (1979- )
 * Dan Locklair (1949- )
 * Bill McGlaughlin (1943- )
 * Tauno Marttinen (1912–2008)
 * Kenneth G. Mills (1923–2004)
 * John Mitchell (1941- )
 * Xavier Montsalvatge (1912–2002)
 * Roberto García Morillo (1911–2003)
 * Louis Moyse (1912–2007)
 * Nico Muhly (1981- )
 * Pawel Mykietyn (1971- )
 * Juan Orrego-Salas (1919– )
 * Jiří Pauer (1919–2007)
 * Alla Pavlova (1952- )
 * H. Owen Reed (1910– )
 * Alexei Rybnikov (1945- )
 * Gustavo Santaolalla (1952- )
 * Meinrad Schütter (1910–2006)
 * Robert Scott Thompson (1959- )
 * Harold Shapero (1920– )
 * Howard Shore (1946- )
 * Alan Shulman (1915–2002)
 * Robert Suderburg (1936- )
 * Edward Top (1972- )
 * René Touzet (1916–2003)
 * Dan Welcher (1948- )
 * Yanni (1954- )
 * Ye Xiaogang (1955- )
 * Christopher Yavelow (1950- )
 * Davide Zannoni (1958- )

All but Joe Duddell have articles, and I have left him in because I think he is reasonably notable. Of the rest, I am not so sure. Many of the articles are unreferenced stubs or apparent vanity articles with little evidence of notability. Some appear to be popular or film music composers, so it is debatable whether or not they belong in this list — the old "what is classical?" debate again.

Where there is ambiguity over sort key for the names (Cacilda Borges Barbosa, Roberto García Morillo, Robert Scott Thompson, Ye Xiaogang), I have referred to the DEFAULTSORT clause in the individual articles.

--Deskford (talk) 00:02, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * If you are undertaking to spend some time on this. I would suggest first checking all the names are genuine. There were some footballers etc. mixed in with the composers! After that we need to make a decision on the blue vs. mixed links issue. (You may decide to recommend dropping the word 'classical' but I suggest leaving that problem for later.) As ever on WP, it's necessary to separate out the problems and work through them logically. Good luck! -- Klein  zach  02:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Just to fill you in on some of those names: many are film composers massively over-exposed on Classic FM (UK) eg Patrick Doyle (Sense and Sensibility and Harry Potter after Williams quit) and Howard Shore (The Lord of the Rings); Yanni is a composer of instrumental albums that cross over light classical and pop-rock; Kenneth G. Mills appears to have been a philosopher who also happened to compose.  Also, Daniel Catan should be Daniel Catán (and is a noted opera composer); Pawel Mykietyn should be Paweł Mykietyn; Alexei Rybnikov should be Alexey Rybnikov; Robert Davidson leads to the important C19th inventor so this entry needs to be dabbed as Robert Davidson (composer); and John Mitchell needs to be dabbed as John Mitchell (composer).  Finally, Alla Pavlova is one of the most original composers of our time (IMHO) who also happens to be female.  All of the others appear to be composers (at least in the widest possible sense) unless I've missed something.  It is also quite possible that some of the "footballers" were undabbed.  Hope this helps!  --Jubilee♫ clipman  20:44, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I confess I had heard of those two massively over-exposed film composers, even though I haven't listened to Classic FM for years. I had actually got Robert Davidson and John Mitchell properly disambiguated in the article, though not in the above list.  I've now respelt Daniel Catán, Paweł Mykietyn and Alexey Rybnikov — the latter two articles are seriously lacking in substance and evidence of notability.  The footballers and politicians are among those who were already in the article before we did the merge.  As Kleinzach points out, it would have been more sensible to weed them out before importing the other lists, but hey, you live and learn....  --Deskford (talk) 21:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * With regards Mr Rybnikov, I notice the article has only recently been moved from Alexei Rybnikov to Alexey Rybnikov. The usual transliteration of the Russian Алексей is Alexei, though it would seem Mr Rybnikov prefers Alexey.  The German Wikipedia calls him Alexei Lwowitsch Rybnikow, whilst the Polish Wikipedia calls him Aleksiej Rybnikow.  Ah, the harmony of nations!  --Deskford (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * seriously lacking in substance and evidence of notability... How long have you got?!? Seriously, there appear to be a huge number in the article itself that that applies to...!  Regarding spellings: most people will specify for some major languages but not others.  At least with Mr. Alexey Rybnikov we have his own preference for English.  Others are not quite so forthcoming... (see here and here)  Anyway, thank you for taking on this unforgiving task!  --Jubilee♫ clipman  22:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Actually, after making that comment I re-read the Rybnikov article and removed the notability tag. It makes great claims of notability — just doesn't back them up with references.  I still think Mykietyn could be potential deletion material though.  As for Pavel Chesnokov, the latter is the usual and standard transliteration into English, and he is dead enough not to have a preference of his own.  In German he would probably be Tschesnokow; in French perhaps Tschesnokoff.  --Deskford (talk) 23:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * French usage now seems to prefer Tchesnokov. Neither German nor French Wikipedia covers him.  I note that Kleinzach has standardised the spelling in the English Wikipedia to the usual English spelling Pavel Chesnokov.  --Deskford (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Selection criteria
Good progress here. Next we need to explain the selection criteria in the lead. Any suggestions, now we are more familiar with the list? -- Klein zach  22:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * It appears to be a catch-all list ie every name an editor spots in WP will go here... Not sure how to stop that (if we need to) or how to explain it (if necessary).  --Jubilee♫ clipman  22:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure it should aim to be a catch-all. When earlier today I added a few Canadian, Dutch, Scottish, Australian and Hungarian composers, I only added a small fraction of those who have articles in Wikipedia.  I guess my selection criteria were to choose composers who have had some degree of exposure through (a) major contemporary music promoters and festivals, (b) broadcast media, or (c) commercial recordings on widely distributed labels.  If we allow everyone in just because they have an article on Wikipedia (a notoriously unreliable source), then this article will multiply to way beyond its current 1300 or so composers.  As it is, we probably all agree that of those 1300 composers probably only about 300 are really significant — we just wouldn't agree which 300!
 * Now here's a radical suggestion. Thinking back to a | comment by Antandrus, we could add an extra column to the table for a one-line mini-biography, invite all the editors to contribute one-line summaries for the composers they believe to be notable, then remove all those who haven't got summaries after a suitable interval, say, three months.  --Deskford (talk) 23:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * OK. Two suggestions (1) take your suggestion (which is a good one) over to Contemporary music (but please link, don't copy everything!). It's a ideal way of revitalizing the project, (2) write a lead for this list, even if it's a temporary one. Each list must explain what it is. If you don't have an explanatory lead you have no basis for excluding anything. -- Klein zach  23:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your suggestions. I've invited comment from the Contemporary Music folk, and expanded the lead.  I haven't said anything in the lead to indicate that criteria for inclusion are currently subject to debate — perhaps I should have...?  --Deskford (talk) 01:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Good, we don't say on the article that it's 'subject to debate' because that would be 'self-referential' (to the internal processes of WP) which is against policy. -- Klein zach  01:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion continues at the contemporary Music Project.  --Deskford (talk) 02:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Red link removal
No new work has been done on this list since 21 December. If there are no further comments etc. I will begin removing the red-linked names in a couple of days. -- Klein zach  03:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

 * ✅ All red links removed. -- Klein zach  01:02, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Adding nationality table
In addition to the sortable tables for the names, births, and deaths of each composer, I am in the process of creating a sortable table for each composer's nationality, to be placed between the "name" and the "birth" category. I should be able to complete this by myself, but I just wanted to make sure no one is fundamentally opposed to my idea. I don't want all my work to be for nothing, but if no one threatens to undo my undoubtedly massive edit (which will be done within the next week) I will assume that everyone's fine with it. --Lord Bromblemore (talk) 19:25, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

 * List of 20th-century classical composers by birth date mentions nationalities, so your edits are unlikely to get a lot of flak. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:34, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Concerning 'Notable Works'
About a month ago, I added a few works from the 20th century that were later removed. After thinking about it, I decided their removal was fair because this article is intended to provide coverage for the 21st century. However, I was looking over List of 20th-century classical composers by birth date today and I discovered that the 'Notable works' column for some composers listed 19th-century compositions. Since the 20th-century list has become the model for this list, shouldn't there be consistency between the two? Which one should we fix? Lord Bromblemore (talk) 15:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A while ago, I added the "works" column but had no time to watch or maintain. To my understanding it should contain only works written or first performed in the 21st century, whereas the same composers can appear in 20th century list with works composed then. 19th century compositions have been removed from 20th, but perhaps not consistently so yet, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There was in fact a quite aggressive campaign not long ago to weed out 19th-century compositions from the "20th-century classical composers by birth date" list. I know this, because I was one of the editors who went through the earlier part of that list to replace 19th-century with 20th-century titles. It would be helpful if you would point out titles that have been overlooked.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Hans Zimmer
Hans Zimmer is a classical musician. Esp if John Williams is here. --Inayity (talk) 01:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The reason John Williams is listed is not because of his film scores, but rather because he has actually composed many "classical" concert works, which Zimmer has not. --Danmuz (talk) 05:45, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, Zimmer fits the qualifications at the top of the article, as he has influenced classical music through his widely-released recordings of film scores in classical tradition. He is one of the most important post-modern classical composers in modern times. MXVN (talk) 05:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of questionable composers
I assume this list is intended to be accurate and include 21st century composers who are actually of note. There are several names that are questionable, but most embarrassing is the inclusion of Richard Zarou and Sarah Horick. They are boyfriend and girlfriend and perhaps had a hand in setting up this page. This kind of self-serving self-promotion does a disservice to people who would actually like to use Wikipedia for accurate research. Have some shame and remove your names from this list. Composerwatcher (talk) 19:50, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Notability, in Wikipedia terms, is established by somewhat broad and sometimes even vague criteria, but so far as this list is concerned, if a composer has an article on Wikipedia, they meet the minimum standard. If you believe these or any other composers on this list do not satisfy the Wikipedia notability guidelines, the place to raise the question is on their individual article pages, not here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

 * This is more reason to confirm the eligibility of Hans Zimmer. There shouldn't even be a question on that one, really. MXVN (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

POV?
I see that Composerwatcher has flagged this list for possible violation of WP:NPOV. Perhaps he/she would care to explain how a list that is effectively an alphabetical index of articles on Wikipedia can violate this policy? Selection criteria were discussed at some length four years ago (see the section of that title further up this talk page). What was overlooked at that time?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of questionable composers to this list
In answer to your post: The page defines the composers included on this list as qualifying for inclusion by these guide lines:

“The list includes composers who have made a significant impact on the world of classical music since 2001, whether through major festivals and promoters of contemporary music, broadcast media or commercial recording on widely distributed labels”

That hardly sounds like this list is comprised of “a list that is effectively an alphabetical index of articles on Wikipedia” as stated in the post above.

Just because someone has created (or had a friend create) a page about them on Wikipedia does not constitute “significant impact on the world of classical music”. Semantics aside, it is clear that several of the names on this list are included as self-promotion. Their inclusion is misleading and dilutes the value of this list. Mr Jerome Kohl, (or whatever your real name is) I can’t understand why this issue is not crystal clear to you.

The qualifications as stated should be followed, deleting those names who do not meet the criteria. Alternatively, change the qualification of the page to include both composers who have in fact made a significant impact, and those who are adept at promoting themselves using the Internet.

I’m not trying to be pugnacious here, but this kind of thing is rampant and needs to be stopped. Wikipedia is a great idea, and I feel that in this case it is being abused and used as a promotional device by some very selfish people.

Thank you.

Composerwatcher (talk) 16:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

 * You are perfectly correct that "because someone has created (or had a friend create) a page about them on Wikipedia does not constitute 'significant impact on the world of classical music'”. It is for this reason that reliable, third-party courses are required to support biographical articles on Wikipedia, and when those are lacking the article can be challenged and deleted (or even deleted summarily in flagrant cases). See WP:Articles for deletion and Proposed deletion. Since these criteria are required for the articles indexed here, in what way are the qualifications as stated not being followed? If vigilance is lax on the biographical articles themselves, how do you propose this be dealt with on that level (in which case this list will be taken care of in the process)? May I also suggest that, if you are not trying to be pugnacious, you not make a point of questioning the identity of other editors ("or whatever your real name is"), and please feel free to use my proper title, which is Dr. Kohl—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I apologize for questioning your identity Dr. Kohl. Perhaps it would help if you explained how the list of names was arrived at. Some of the composers names are obvious choices, but others, as I have pointed out, do not seem to belong on this list. Perhaps someday these unknown folks will have earned a place on the list, but in the meantime its difficult to understand how they ended up on here. Composerwatcher (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Since I was not the original compiler of this list, I can only suppose it was assembled by searching the English Wikipedia for names of composers active after 2000. This is the minimum threshold which was discussed at some length (above on this talk page) when the list was pared down by removing all redlinks a few years ago. This is at least an objective means of selection/exclusion, and by this criterion it can safely be said that all the composers on this list do indeed belong here (you may care to compare the List of 20th-century classical composers, which uses the same criterion). If you have got a better idea, then by all means put it forward, but if it is going to be along the lines of "The 100 most important 21st-century composers" I can almost guarantee that you will find nothing but disagreement about who belongs on the list and, even in the unlikely event that you can obtain consensus, then I predict a new list of "All the other notable 21st-century composers" will immediately be created. Keep in mind that whatever means of selection you propose, it will have to be objective—not based on the opinion of whichever editor happens along.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Marjan Mozetich
Is Marjan Mozetich someone who belongs on this list? Michael Kinyon (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Oh never mind. I see he's on the List of 20th-century classical composers. I guess that makes sense. Michael Kinyon (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Bratislava IP editor(s)
I've not been around much for the last year or so, but I notice that there have been prolific additions to this list from IP addresses based in Bratislava, most recently but previously also. 188...125 was blocked at one point for adding fictitious future death dates amongst other things, and some of 195...1's recent additions seem suspicious. Some have been valid additions though; I've just rescued Anders Eliasson and Judith Bingham from the latest batch. I didn't re-add Tyzen Hsiao, Wang Xilin, Richard Kearns or Mark Alburger because, although they do have articles, I'm not sure of their notability. I see that these Bratislava IP editors have been unresponsive to talk page approaches, but this may be because they are not conversant in English. Do we have anyone who might be able to try approaching them in Slovak? --Deskford (talk) 07:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Split apart
Congratulations, this article contains more lines than any other article on Wikipedia, 14,683 lines. It is also the largest list on Wikipedia. It isn't the largest article in terms of file size, but start adding some "notable works" and it will be. It took almost two minutes to save the article after I added the split template. Article also crashes my tablet's browser. This desperately needs to be split up into pieces. Bgwhite (talk) 06:12, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good luck. I suggest deleting people who died as early as 1894, who are still included in this list. They can only have been decomposing since the beginning of the 21st century. Somebody obviously has pulled a stroke here, and this list needs to be reverted to its condition prior to this prank.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:41, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This requires massive, massive, massive pruning. I would not expect a list of 21st-century classical composers to include people who died in the 1800s, or even the 1900s. 21st century classical composers says, to me at least, people who were active in the 21st century. Also, WP:CSC suggests having entries only on individuals deemed notable (by having an article) for lists such as this. If we go by that, we can cut a whole lot of fluff. At least 30k. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:09, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've restored revision 595184288 by Jerome Kohl. No redlinks, no people who died in the 1800s. No references, but at least it's more in touch with policy. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:17, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Still needs to be pruned - I doubt composers who lived from, say, 1893 to 2001 had much impact on the 21st century. Per the lead, this isn't a list of composers who happened to be living at any point in the 21st century; they should "have made a significant impact on the world of classical music since 2001, whether through major festivals and promoters of contemporary music, broadcast media or commercial recording on widely distributed labels." 6 an 6 sh 6 20:48, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think I recognise that "significant impact" wording as mine. The problem is deciding how we can objectively assess the impact of any individual composer. I agree that this list is now too big to serve any purpose beyond the vanity of the many minor composers included. Any suggestions as to measurable pruning criteria? --Deskford (talk) 21:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a very difficult question. In effect, we are asking "how significant is significant?" First, concerning User:Ansh666's perfectly good point about composers who died in 2001: OK, so let's remove all of those. Now, what about the ones who died in 2002? Maybe 2003? At this point we hit Luciano Berio, and there are two 21st-century works mentioned, the Piano Sonata and Sequenza XIV for cello. Even assuming that the sonata is not really a significant work (and I hasten to add this is scarcely a supportable position), the Sequenza is the last in a long series of works that, as a series, is without a doubt of the highest significance for music from 1958 to the present. I think this illustrates the problem of the artificiality of drawing a line at a particular date when trying to determine the impact a composer might have on "the world of classical music". The attractiveness of using this arbitrary date as an objective criterion becomes even greater as soon as we consider the possibility of adding another sort category to this list: "in order of notability". If we could do this objectively, then it would be easy to restrict the list to, say, the "one hundred most notable composers". We have struggled with much the same issue with the 20th-century list, and lost, and the 19th-century list, once more tightly controlled, is rapidly sliding down the same slope. One way of dealing with the present list would be to insist that any composer on it have proved his or her worth (by the usual criteria: recordings, reviews in major newspapers, being the subject of articles in peer-reviewed journals) for at least twenty-five years within the 21st century. Unfortunately, this would only be postponing the problem for eleven years, not solving it. It seems to me that the best criterion still has got to be the litmus test of whether the links turn blue or red. We can still go after the blue-linked articles, if we feel they do not pass WP:Notability. This is a laborious outlook, but I fear is the only good test that we have for inclusion on this list.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

 * How about if they composed/debuted/something of that sort a work in the 21st century? Would be a bit more research/work to do, but that would sound reasonable, no? 6 an 6 sh 6 23:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It sounds reasonable, but I can't see anyone going through 2500 composers checking them all. A pragmatic approach might be to implement a stricter inclusion criterion: we could say we will include a composer on this list only if the composer is bluelinked and there is at least one bluelinked composition in the "notable works" column that dates from 2001 or later. This means we would radically reduce the size of the article to begin with, and composers could be added back when they are shown to have produced notable compositions in the 21st century. --Deskford (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Although I get the feeling that would trim off too much (but maybe I'm just being a pessimist). Jerome, what do you think? 6 an 6 sh 6 00:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I had considered suggesting this myself, though in jest rather than seriously. It would certainly result in a drastic reduction in size of the list—there are currently just fifteen bluelinked compositions here! (If we were to do this, could we do the same thing to the "List of 20th-century classical composers"? Please?!) I would certainly have to scramble to write articles about compositions by all of my composer friends! Seriously, though, the real question has to do with the purpose of this list. Should it be a "guide to the best of…", or simply an "index to composer articles on Wikipedia"? I think both are viable options. (I notice that WikiProject Indexes is linked on this talk page. Perhaps some members of that project might have opinions to share?)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, for those who just want an index, there's Category:21st-century classical composers, although curiously this only has about half as many entries as there are on this list. --Deskford (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, seems my previous reply didn't get through, so here's the gist of it: Personally I'd prefer something tending towards an index, but even for that there are some on this list that really shouldn't be there. For example, Leo Ornstein is on this list, despite living only 2 years into the 21st century and not writing anything since ~1991 (according to the article, at least). 6 an 6 sh 6 01:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I certainly agree that such composers shouldn't be here. I've removed Iannis Xenakis more than once – he lived one month into the 21st century but didn't compose anything significant after the mid-1990s – but I see he's back on the list again. --Deskford (talk) 01:59, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We can of course remove such names on a case-by-case basis. The problem is that without a clearly formulated, simple rule for inclusion/exclusion, somebody is going to come along in ten minutes' time and replace them. In a sortable-table format like this, it is a little difficult to place a warning message in hidden text. Perhaps the current explanation at the head of the list could be expanded in some way to require that at least one work actually composed in the 21st century needs to be specified in the "compositions" column—at least, for any composer who died before, say 2005?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Protect?
In the mean time, whilst we debate the best way to manage this article, would it be possible to get it protected so that our Bratislava IP editor doesn't keep adding huge tranches of 19th- and 20th-century composers, redlinks, duplicates of existing entries and spurious future death dates for living composers? --Deskford (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Would be a good idea. I don't know how backlogged WP:RFPP is; alternatively, you could try pinging Crisco. 206.117.89.7 (talk) 09:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC) (User:Ansh666 logged out)
 * He's out for a month, so I don't think it's necessary just yet. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, protected for a month. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:00, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. They were actually using 2-3 IPs. 206.117.89.8 (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Another of this anonymous editor's habits was adding new entries out of sequence so the order is now pretty jumbled – I may have a go at re-sorting it now the IP editor is silenced. --Deskford (talk) 01:26, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Sort
The list is sortable, but should it show some sort of sorting at the beginning? It's not obvious to me. Some is by alphabet, but only at times. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

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Outdated template
The template for "Lists of classical music composers by eras" that appears at the upper right of this article/list is partly out of date. Lists now exist for composers of the Modernist and Postmodern eras, and these need to be added to the template. The 20th and 21st centuries don't really belong on this list as currently titled, but can be retained along with Modernist and Postmodern if the title is modified to read "Lists of classical music composers by eras and centuries". I would update the template myself if the customary V.T.E. buttons were at the bottom, but they are missing and I know of no other way to do the edit. Maybe some editor or administrator is trying to protect the template from being updated even by registered users like myself. ~ChrisCarss Former24.108.99.31 (talk) 09:03, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Table
I know the table is sortable anyway but the other page the composers are put in order of birth, here it seems it's in a random order are we just adding to the bottom. DanTheMusicMan2 (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Except for the last eleven names in the list, the default order appears to be alphabetical by last name. It would be a lot easier to fix the alphabetical position of those eleven names than to rework the entire list into chronological order. If you want to take on this task, however, I will not stand in your way.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:58, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Quality Issues - Too many composers
I started a project to go through the composers listed in this table. In my opinion this table should be 5-10% of it's current size. Jazz, electronic rock/pop, composers with "stubs" for their wiki pages, non-notable composers, film composers, video game composers, arrangers, composition professors (unless they have notable works), composers whose YouTube videos never hit 1000 views on any single video, musicians who composed a couple pieces on the side--these should be removed from this list. This list has no integrity and buries notable composers. Is anyone open to this, or should I just create a new wiki page? - January 18th, 2021 -- 18:27 (UTC)
 * I'd say create a new one, perhaps in draft space, and then ask what people think. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will. Is anyone interested in working on this together and coming up with strict criteria? I can dump the composer list into a google doc. Here is the far from complete draft: Draft:List of notable 20th/21st century composers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eezurr (talk • contribs) 20:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A term like "Neo-Impressionism" is dubious, especially if not cited to a reliable source. I would strongly recommend taking out the genre section entirely, we're past the days of being able to put every composer into some classification (and even those were, eh). Aza24 (talk) 02:22, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Removing unsourced genres is fair (although I did pull the term from a composers wiki page). However, there are many composers who strictly fall into genres (either because they invented it or added a significant contribution to it). Considering there are wikipedia articles on music genres, would it be fair to only use genres that link to other wikipedia pages? --Eezurr (talk) 13:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I have removed: --Eezurr (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2021 (UTC) --Eezurr (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Richard Zarou - Pop artist
 * Mike Block - Pop artist
 * Lars Winther - Jazz artist
 * Sasha Siem - Pop artist
 * Seann Branchfield - Pop/Rock artist
 * Walt Ribeiro - Youtube personality who arranges music over video
 * Mark L. Smith (dead link)
 * Adrian Knight - Actor --Eezurr (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:29, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Rob Simonsen - Not classical
 * Paul Cristo - Not classical
 * Logan Richardson - Rock/Jazz
 * Jacob Cooper - Electronic
 * Corey Dargel - Pop/Electronic --Eezurr (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I have made a second update and removed another group of non-classical composers. I looked each person up on youtube before removing (in case anyone is scared by the big edits) --Eezurr (talk) 20:11, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Intro paragraph
I removed everything related to notability, festivals, etc, since this list has clearly expanded beyond the scope of its original intent. Eezurr (talk) 18:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


text:
Talk:New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

'Appendix C4'
A recently removed edit added that "Appendix C4 of the 2013 edition cites 134 versions in various languages that use the Divine Name in one form or another in their main text." Actually, that appendix only appears in the 2015—2019 Study edition, and the claim that all 134 use the so-called 'divine name' "in the main text" is also incorrect, as some only mention inclusion in footnotes, references or commentaries. Aside from these errors, the statement was presented in the article to suggest support for the NWT's frequent use of 'Jehovah' in the New Testament but for almost all of the translations listed, the appendix only says "some verses" or "various verses" of the other works use 'some form of the divine name', without indicating how many or which ones. Hence, even if properly cited, the statement as used in the article would be misleading.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 06:55, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Opinion by Taylor
With regard to recent changes, and advice given, I felt it necessary to bring in more text.

"Lord with two sizes of capital letters and God with a capital G and small letters. Then it turns around and does just the opposite, spells Lord with only one capital letter and God with all three capitals, of two sizes. Mama, what's happened to the Bible?" Could she tell him? You can. You know that you had Lord, in its own right, followed by Jehovah; so, to avoid saying Lord LORD, the small capitals were switched this time to GOD, put in to save the situation in an emergency. The Bible-to-be ought to find some better way than this, more sensible and more reverent. And if it refuses to translate the sacred name it ought at the very least to give full information in the margin. Cut out a few conjectures and put in this major fact. This blackout, a vindictive intolerance of God himself as revealed, is a scandal before the bar of the American conscience. Sometimes God chastens his people with pagans. Just when the infidel universities of this land thought they had laughed out of court the very Name Jehovah, up surges that plebeian and outrageous movement that glorifies the Name as their name, "Jehovah's Witnesses." And they gather in assemblies under the very shadow of Columbia University, one hundred and twenty thousand strong. And they baptize (real meaning of the word, too) over three thousand converts to their Jehovah in one day, and next year over four thousand in a day. And one of their lawyers goes before our august Supreme Court and defies the Catholic judge on it to hold back their liberties, and that judge votes for him. And with considerable scholarship they get out their own New Testament and, lo and behold, they put Jehovah into the New Testament two or three hundred times. And then our curious America says: "What's it all about? I bought a copy of the new Bible [RSV]. But I didn't find that word even in it."

- William Carey Taylor. Its Banishment of Many Bible Words § Jehovah – The Complete Banished Word. The New Bible, Pro and Con. New York: Vantage Press. OCLC 1085898453

It is a great pity not to be able to access the whole book on the website. Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 17:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In context, Taylor’s ‘review’ seems more like a rant and it doesn’t really add anything of substance to the article. The article already clearly indicates that the NWT adds the name Jehovah to the NT. Taylor’s more general statements about the denomination are out of scope.— Jeffro 77 (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The book is a discussion of a Bible in which the author mentions different translations, and how they render different verses. Later on, he addresses the treatment of the name of God, from page 70, where Taylor states that he does not agree with the "banishment" of the name of God Jehovah (also in different verses). Additionally he mentions that in an assembly the NWT appears, and here is the opinion, in which he says that it was produced with "considerable scholarship".
 * In this sentence we do not see the opinion about adding Jehovah in the NT but unlike Metzger and BeDuhn, (who do not agree with the insertion of Jehovah in the NT), Taylor complains that in the new Bible [RSV] he does not find the name (probably in the OT).
 * The text was inserted to disprove "Not even clear he's talking about the NWT", not to mention "more general statements about the denomination", this seems to attack the straw man.
 * The opinion that "more like a rant and it doesn't really add anything of substance to the article.", when Taylor mentions "considerable scholarship", seems exaggerated.
 * I do not have access to the book, so, to make it easier (the treatment to Jehovah could be deleted), I have a popposal, and please review the history. Any suggestion or change is welcome. I don't know if it has any relevance, but the Baptist missionary (as was Taylor) Paul Besson, produced a translation of the NT with the name Jehovah. Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 05:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

 * It is good that you provided the text here to confirm the context. But the passage isn't particularly useful, especially given Taylor's overall tone (which diminishes the seriousness of his use of the expression "considerable scholarship", which is misleading in isolation), and the addition isn't particularly useful for confirming that the NWT contains the name Jehovah, which is already adequately presented. Taylor's references to the NWT and JWs generally are flippant and apparently tangential to his main purpose. It is not necessary for the article to contain every statement that any author has ever made about the NWT, nor is it necessary for this article to 'defend' the presence of Jehovah in the NWT's rendering of the New Testament. (If you don't have access to the book, how were you able to quote it? In general, you should cite where you found a statement if it is was quoted in some other work. It would not be appropriate to cherry-pick statements that have been collected in 'lists of statements supportive of the NWT'.)-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 09:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Critical review
Should the critical review section be in a separate article? Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (talk) 01:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Personally I don't think it's necessary. The section isn't so overstuffed as to need its own article, and it makes sense to keep it here. Vyselink (talk) 06:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

 * If anything, the section should probably be reduced, preferably retaining reviews of scholars and removing or reducing comments from theologians of 'rival' denominations.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Agreed. The first sentence in the section is a quick overview of the criticism. If we maybe just flesh it out a bit I think we can keep the links/references to the theologians reviews as sources. Say something like
 * "Criticism of the New World Translation is particularly concentrated on Christological issues, mainly the translation of the word kurios (Greek: κύριος) as "Jehovah"—usually translated "Lord" by the classical translators, its rendering of John 1:1, rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity, and for being difficult to read" (or something to that effect) followed by the references so at least they can be searched by the reader if they are so inclined.
 * If the above was used, just a quick review shows that it would remove the Byington, Hoekema, Barclay, Parkinson and Ankerberg quotes, condensing the section a bit and relieving some bloat. And of course we could do something similar with several of the positive reviews, condense and eliminate the full quotes. I.e. "Some critics have praised its 'scholarly' attempts at an accurate conservative translation". Just spitballing here. Vyselink (talk) 08:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Long Island University

Long Island University (LIU) is a private university with two main campuses, LIU Post in Brookville, New York, on Long Island, and LIU Brooklyn in Brooklyn, New York City. The university offers over 500 academic programs at its main campuses, online, and at multiple non-residential locations. LIU has an NCAA Division I athletics programs and hosts and sponsors the annual George Polk Awards in journalism.

20th century
LIU was chartered in 1926 in Brooklyn, by the New York State Education Department to provide "effective and moderately priced education" to people from "all walks of life." LIU Brooklyn is located in Downtown Brooklyn, at the corner of Flatbush and DeKalb Avenues. The main building adjoins the 1920s movie house, Paramount Theatre, the building retains much of the original decorative detail and a fully operational Wurlitzer organ. The campus consists of nine academic buildings; a recreation and athletic complex that includes Division I regulation athletic fields; one on-campus and two nearby residential buildings; and an adjoining parking facility.

The campus is home to the university's oldest school, the Arnold & Marie Schwartz College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences, founded in 1891 as the Brooklyn College of Pharmacy, and LIU Global, a four-year bachelor's degree program that allows students to live and study internationally in eight countries across eight semesters.

LIU athletic team, the Sharks compete at the NCAA Division I level The university sponsors the George Polk Awards for excellence in journalism, and hosts and manages the Kumble Theater for the Performing Arts.

In 1951, in response to the growing number of families moving to the suburbs, LIU purchased an 177 acre estate known as Hillwood from cereal heiress Marjorie Merriweather Post and her third husband Joseph E. Davies. Located in Brookville on Long Island's Gold Coast, the original home, Warburton Hall, was built by William A. Prime and was extensively renovated by Marjorie and her second husband Edward F. Hutton. Three years later, the campus was renamed C. W. Post, in honor of Marjorie Post's father C. W. Post, a pioneering food entrepreneur.

21st century
In 2012, the university renamed all campuses. C. W. Post is now LIU Post, the university's largest campus, at 307 acres (125 hectares) of historic 1920s mansions, gardens, athletic fields, art studios and performing arts space, broadcast television and radio stations, an on-campus sustainable energy facility, and the only on-campus equestrian facility on Long Island. LIU Post was home to the NCAA Division II LIU Post Pioneers and is the site of the Tilles Center for the Performing Arts. The school introduced its first online degree plan in 2004.

In March 2013, LIU named Kimberly R. Cline the university's tenth president. She is the first woman to lead the private, six-campus institution.

2016-2017 lockout
Cline outsourced the work of two groups of previously unionized workers on campus, and oversaw the lockout of 400 faculty on the day prior to the beginning of the 2016–17 school year.

On September 1, 2016, three days after the union's contract expired and five days before the union was due to vote on the new contract, the university cut off the affected staff's email accounts and health insurance, and told them they would be replaced. This is the first time that a college or university in the United States has used a lockout against its faculty members, according to William A. Herbert, executive director of the National Center for the Study of Collective Bargaining in Higher Education and the Professions.

Following the lockout, the American Association of University Professors released a statement that it "deplores this action and supports the right of the LIU Brooklyn faculty to collectively bargain in good faith with its administration," and urged the LIU administration to resume negotiations. In the first week of the autumn term, some students at LIU Brooklyn staged a walkout in support of the locked-out teaching staff.

With the 236 full-time faculty members and 450 adjuncts locked out, classes were taught by university administrators and temporary staff, and students reported inadequate instruction. The lockout ended on September 14 with an agreement to continue the expired contract until May 31, 2017, and resume negotiations with a mediator.

COVID-19 pandemic
In response to the COVID-19 pandemic, Long Island University moved all classes to online instruction for the remainder of the Spring 2020 semester. Following a stay-at-home order from then-Governor Andrew Cuomo directing all non-essential businesses to work remotely, administrative and academic offices began operating virtually and LIU fired or furloughed employees whose work was perceived as non-amenable to working remotely, including 84 of 98 unionized employees.

Instruction in Summer 2020 was conducted on-line and LIU began offering in-person instruction again beginning September 8, 2020, with on-line options for people unable to attend lectures. Following the Thanksgiving recess, all instruction became online, with LIU resuming in-person instruction starting on February 1, 2021, at the start of the spring semester.

Organization
LIU is administered by a president and a 27-member board of trustees who elect the president.

LIU Brooklyn
LIU Brooklyn includes: • LIU Pharmacy, the Arnold and Marie Schwartz College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences

• LIU Global (formerly Global College)

• Richard Conolly College of Liberal Arts & Sciences

• School of Education

• Harriet Rothkopf Heilbrunn School of Nursing

• School of Professional and Continuing Studies

• School of Business, Public Administration and Information Sciences

• School of Arts & Communication

• Honors College

LIU Post
LIU Post includes: • College of Veterinary Medicine

• College of Education, Information & Technology

• College of Liberal Arts and Sciences

• School of Business

• School of Professional Accountancy

• School of Computer Science, Innovation & Management Engineering

• School of Health Professions and Nursing

• School of Visual Arts Communication & Design

• School of Performing Arts

• Honors College

College of Veterinary Medicine
The Vet School's inaugural class began instruction in fall 2020. At the time of its founding, there were only 30 vet colleges in the United States. For over 150 years, the only vet school in the state was the New York State College of Veterinary Medicine at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. However, political pressure grew for a second school in the New York City area. In May 2018, New York State granted $12 million to LIU to develop a vet school. Pre-clinical instruction is based in Brentwood, NY. Instead of developing its own veterinary hospital, LIU's clinical programs are taught at existing veterinary hospitals and practices. The LIU Vet School has received a provisional accreditation and will award its first DVM degrees in 2024.

Other LIU locations
LIU Brentwood offers undergraduate and/or graduate programs in education, special education, literacy, mental health counseling, school counseling, psychology, criminal justice, and nursing.

LIU Hudson offers graduate and advanced certificate programs in business, public administration, pharmaceutics, education (early childhood, childhood, literacy, special education, and TESOL), educational leadership, school counseling, school psychology, mental health counseling, and marriage and family therapy.

LIU Riverhead is home to the Homeland Security Management Institute, which offers homeland security training. The institute has been designated a "Homeland Security Center of Excellence" by the United States Congress. Programs are also available in education, special education, literacy, communication studies, new media, cyber security, applied behavior analysis, and TESOL.

Ranking
In 2023, U.S. News & World Report ranked LIU 369th among National Universities.

Unification
On October 3, 2018, Long Island University announced that it was unifying the athletic programs of its two campuses into one Division I program, effective with the 2019–20 academic year. The unified LIU program will continue to sponsor all varsity sports that either campus sponsored before the merger. The new program's nickname of Sharks was announced on May 15, 2019. The Sharks retain the Brooklyn campus's affiliation in the Northeast Conference.

The Sharks added two completely new women's sports effective in 2019–20. Shortly before the athletic merger was announced, LIU Brooklyn announced that it would add women's ice hockey; that sport will carry over to the unified program. Shortly after the merger announcement, LIU announced it would add women's water polo, placing that sport in the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference.

Media
LIU Public Radio, WCWP, broadcasts on 88.1.

LIU Brooklyn's student newspaper is Seawanhaka, and LIU Post's student newspaper is The Tide.

Notable alumni

 * Alex the Astronaut, Australian singer and songwriter
 * Shmuel Avishar, former Israeli basketball player
 * Paul Broadie II, president, Santa Fe College
 * Vinnette Justine Carroll, former playwright, actress, and theatre director
 * Robert L. Caslen, U.S. Army general, 59th Superintendent of the United States Military Academy, and 29th president of the University of South Carolina
 * Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, Turkish politician, Grand National Assembly of Turkey member, and former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Turkey
 * Ray Dalio, founder of Bridgewater Associates, investor, and philanthropist
 * Joe Gatto, comedian and actor
 * Vin Lananna, Team USA Olympic coach, USA Track & Field president, former CEO of TrackTown USA, and the university's athletic director
 * Barry Leibowitz, American-Israeli basketball player
 * Ivan Leshinsky, American-Israeli basketball player
 * Shawn Liao, basketball player and opera patron
 * Dov Markus, Israeli-American soccer player
 * Charles F. Masterson, special assistant to President Eisenhower
 * Dina Meyer, actress
 * Ram Mohan Naidu Kinjarapu, Member of Parliament in Lok Sabha, the lower house of Parliament of India
 * Peter Nilsson, Swedish soccer player
 * Neil Raymond Ricco, poet and writer
 * Brenden Rodney, professional Canadian track and field athlete
 * Ossie Schectman, basketball player who scored the first basket in NBA history
 * Tinga Seisay, Sierra Leonean diplomat and pro-democracy activist
 * Denise Vasi, actress

Notable faculty

 * Ivan Lee, women's fencing team head coach and Olympic saber fencer

title: Long Island University


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The Rutherford Institute

The Rutherford Institute is a conservative Christian public interest law firm dedicated to the defense of civil liberties, human rights, and religious liberties. Based in Charlottesville, Virginia, the non-profit organization's motto is "its our job to make the government play by the rules of the Constitution." The organization was founded in 1982 by John W. Whitehead, who continued to be its president. The Rutherford Institute offers free legal services to those who have had their rights threatened or violated. The Rutherford Institute has a network of affiliate attorneys across the United States and funds its efforts through donations. In addition to its offer of legal services, the organization offers free educational materials for those interested in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

While once primarily concerned with the defense of religious liberties, the organization later expanded its mission to encompass other constitutional issues such as search and seizure, free speech, and zero tolerance policy. Some of the institute's legal actions were widely reported, including helping Paula Jones pursue a sexual harassment lawsuit in 1997 against President Bill Clinton, and its defense of middle and high school students suspended and expelled under inflexible zero tolerance policies, and the free speech rights of preachers and political protestors. Declaring that we live in a police state where "freedom has become fascism", the institute has denounced no-knock warrants and granting police qualified immunity. It also defended state laws banning homosexual conduct in Bowers v. Hardwick.

The Rutherford Institute has worked with a number of similar groups across the political spectrum, including the ACLU and the Cato Institute. Whitehead was described by jazz historian and civil libertarian Nat Hentoff as "this nation's Paul Revere of protecting civil liberties."

Foundation
The Rutherford Institute was named after Samuel Rutherford, a 17th-century theologian who wrote a book, Lex, Rex, which challenged the concept of the divine right of kings. When The Rutherford Institute was founded, conservative Protestants in the United States were reconsidering their role in American political and legal life, perceiving that the federal government was intent on encroaching on Americans' religious liberties. Organizations such as The Rutherford Institute pursued matters of religious liberties in the courts, and The Rutherford Institute became the model for groups such as the National Legal Foundation, the Liberty Counsel, and the American Center for Law and Justice. Bryan McKenzie of the Charlottesville Daily Progress described the institute as "a more conservative American Civil Liberties Union" (ACLU).

History and legal actions
Since its founding, The Rutherford Institute has expanded its aims from defending the religious liberties of Christians to include defending the religious liberties of all Americans, as well as working to preserve rights such as free speech and the right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure. However, the institute has sometimes taken pro-government positions, such as defending laws which banned gay sex.

Religious liberty
In 2004, the group filed a lawsuit against Muskogee Public Schools in Oklahoma on behalf of Nashala Hearn, an 11-year-old Muslim student who was suspended for wearing a religious headscarf to school.

In 2007, they filed a lawsuit against Freehold Township, New Jersey on behalf of an Orthodox rabbi, Avraham Bernstein, alleging that the town was persecuting Bernstein for holding prayer meetings in his home on the Sabbath.

In 2011, the group took up the cause of Laura George, founder of the Oracle Institute, who wanted to build a "Peace Pentagon", a proposed interfaith study center and retreat, on the banks of the New River in Independence, Virginia. After George was refused a building permit when the local Board of Supervisors voted to deny the project on health, safety and welfare grounds, attorneys acting on behalf of The Rutherford Institute pursued a legal action to acquire the permit, alleging religious discrimination; eventually the building permit was granted.

Freedom of speech
In 2012, The Rutherford Institute filed a lawsuit on behalf of Harold Hodge, a man arrested in January 2011 for standing outside the United States Supreme Court Building carrying a sign which read, "The U.S. Gov allows police to illegally murder and brutalize African-Americans and Hispanic people." Other cases include defending an Albemarle High School student's right to wear a National Rifle Association T-shirt to school and contesting the dismissal of a California teacher who referred to "Zionist Jews" during an Occupy Movement protest.

The Rutherford Institute was also involved with the ACLU in defending the 2017 Unite the Right rally effort to hold a rally on August 11 and 12 in Charlottesville's Emancipation Park.

Opposition to Government surveillance
In 2012, The Rutherford Institute took legal action against the Northside Independent School District in San Antonio, Texas, on behalf of high school student, Andrea Hernandez, who risked consequences from school administrators for refusing to wear a "name badge containing a radio-frequency identification (RFID) chip." The school district sought to increase student attendance rates with tracking devices on students. Attorneys for the Rutherford Institute argued that the school's actions violated Texas' Religious Freedom Act, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. After the lawsuit in federal court and the negative publicity it generated, the Northside Independent School District abandoned the tracking program.

In 2023, The Rutherford Institute urged the City Council in Charlottesville, Virginia against adopting the use of license plate readers in the Charlottesville Police Department.

In 2023, The Rutherford Institute issued a public warning about Ancestry.com DNA Kits and the "associated privacy risks posed by police and hackers." John W. Whitehead, president of The Rutherford Institute said “The debate over genetic privacy—and when one’s DNA becomes a public commodity outside the protection of the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition on warrantless searches and seizures—is really only beginning,”

Search and seizure
In 2008, The Rutherford Institute joined a coalition of civil libertarians and activists who called upon President George W. Bush to release a number of Muslim Uighurs who were being detained indefinitely in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

In 2010, the group took on a number of cases regarding the Transportation Security Administration's controversial security procedures at American airports. The organization filed a lawsuit in November 2010 against Janet Napolitano, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security and John Pistole, the head of the Transportation Security Administration, on behalf of airline pilots Michael Roberts and Ann Poe. The pilots objected to being subjected to "whole body imaging" scanners, which reveal the nude body of the subject being searched, as well as a pat-down. John W. Whitehead said of the matter, "Forcing Americans to undergo a virtual strip search as a matter of course in reporting to work or boarding an airplane when there is no suspicion of wrongdoing is a grotesque violation of our civil liberties." The next month The Rutherford Institute filed another lawsuit on the behalf of three passengers who took issue with the TSA screening procedures: a 12-year-old girl placed in a body scanner without parental consent, a man who was subjected to an invasive pat down in his genital area due to an abnormality caused by a childhood injury, and a woman who had undergone a mastectomy and was required to be patted down in her breast area.

In 2010, Whitehead sent a letter to Ken Cuccinelli, the Attorney General of Virginia, decrying his legal opinion that school officials could seize and search student cellphones and laptop computers upon suspicion that a student had broken school rules or the law.

In 2011, the group filed a friend of the court brief in the case U.S. v. Jones, imploring the justices of the U.S. Supreme Court to rule that the placement of a GPS tracking device on the defendant's car without first obtaining a warrant constituted an illegal search. In January 2012 the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that police must obtain a warrant before placing a physical GPS tracking unit on a suspect's car.

Following the 2020 Anti-police protests over the murder of George Floyd, but without mentioning it, Rutherford published an article denouncing no knock warrants and the granting of "qualified immunity" to police. The article argued that Americans live in a "police state" and that "freedom has become fascism" due to the Supreme Court's refusal to uphold the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution and limit the police, stating that there is a "nationwide epidemic of court-sanctioned police violence carried out with impunity against individuals posing little or no real threat."

Ballot access
In July 2014, The Rutherford Institute supported the Libertarian Party of Virginia and alleged that Virginia ballot laws favored "the election chances of Democrat and Republican candidates at the expense of Libertarian Party and independent candidates."

title: The Rutherford Institute