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Talk:Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge

pics
hey people i would like to add some pics in the article and since it would violate the copyright laws if i copy and paste another pic to this article, what do u guys say if i draw one and then scan it? --35ednalung

From the lecturer, this is OK. Go ahead please. --35patchau

Good idea, but i think it'll be a tough work for you. -- 36noelchan

Good suggestion, i think there is at least a picture about the proposed bridge location. So you are thinking about drawing a rough map including Hong Kong, Macau, Zhuhai? -- 39kschan

Hi all, I have drawn one and scan it as picture shown in main page, any comments are welcome, and I can use the mother copy to make changes. -- 39kschan

 * Hi there. Please remember to use “ ~ ” to sign your messages.   Oshawott 12  ==== Talk to me!  12:17, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

map
should the svg map image say "newly reclaimed land" because the airport is reclaimed, but it is not marked as reclaimed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8804:6100:1C9:41ED:D4FE:17E0:FF1A (talk) 19:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

topics and redlinks
Hello. Before I do anything big on the page, I just want to ask some questions. 1. Some of the content is irrelevant to our topic. I'm feeling that the information hasn't been precise enough. Delete some topics (eg talking about ferry routes when it isn't directly responsible for contributing)? 2. There are a lot of red links (ie words that doesn't exist yet). Some of them are too technical; some of them are too commonplace to be linked (eg, what, freight? I'm sure everybody knows what that means/is)

Just my 2 cents for today. --37blee

yeah i agree with 37blee, there are some irrelevant info but all is good we can each do some edition and it should be fine. ok what about the pictures then? i've already drawn one..just need to scan it...but which pic to use since 39kschan has already drawn one. -- 35ednalung

actually it doesn't matter...the one of kschan is sort of like a map...but mine is the actual bridge....what it may look like...so yeah no worries

Yes you guys are right. But I would like to know what information is missing and should be included in our page? So far I don't have much idea on what to be added on the page ... recently i simply make some minor amendments instead, a bit frustrated ... -- 36noelchan

I believe that most of the information that we need others to know are pretty much covered. What we want to do now is to proofread the document. Also, if we can find any images to spice up the page, that would be excellent. Good work people --37blee

i have a suggestion, could we delete the impacts behind each category under 'impacts and influences'? cuz i think it's very repetitive...and would be better if we just have economic, scio-economic, environmental..blah blah..well that's what i think any comments? --35ednalung

Please do. I'm currently in the process of proofreading the article...I have deleted several repetitive links and content in the past. Also please double-check what you have written for mistakes. --37blee

Chinese terms
Dear all, do you think it is better to include Chinese terms in the article? I guess that you may think that terms in Chinese are included in the diagram, but I think it is clearer to include them in the article. Well, I've just checked the history that Oliveir deleted the terms. --35patchau

Which Chinese terms? where? --37blee

hey people, we got a problem here...u know the four crossing points under background where's the fourth one? it's not there --35ednalung

The 4th one is Lo Wu? It is in a new paragraph which does not under 4th bulletin points. --39kschan

I have added the 4th points for standardization. --39kschan

Chinese names of Hong Kong, Zhuhai, Macau, etc. I added them, but Oliveir deleted them.--35patchau

 * See Manual of Style for China-related articles for the reason why I have deleted some of the Chinese terms. olivier 11:25, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

pics
hey people anyone know how to delete a pic? --35ednalung

to remove the sentence that locating the picture, i.e. .... ..... -- 39kschan

A few questions
Under "Background":

 * The number of passengers can reach up to 400,000 during peak hours...

Is it 400,000 per hour?

 * Continuous expansion works have been done at these three crossings to meet the increasing demand for passenger handling capacity.

Which three is it referring to? I'm guessing Man Kam To, Lok Ma Chau and Lo Wu, but it'd be better if they were specifically referred to in the article.

 * Railway to the Lo Wu crossing receives much traffic from the towns.

Is it talking about the towns within Hong Kong?

- Hinto 21:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Span lengths
The references in the Intro section were a bit messy so I just did a minor clean-up there. In the process I removed the (superfluous?) statement that the longest span is going to be "between the artificial islands containing the Macau exit of the tunnel and the Macau border facilities" because I couldn't find any handy references to support that claim. The original wording was a bit strange and I got the impression that the longest span is between two points on the Macau side, which obviously cannot be right. Besides, I found the content of that sentence to be out of place in the intro section. Further down would be fine though, if anyone can cough up a reference and a less confusing way to word it. Cheers. Meiyou (talk) 03:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Managing Right hand drive (mainland PR China)
and left hand drive (HK) on the bridge is not mentioned. Is this concept approved yet? -Scriberius (talk) 20:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

 * They could do (or would already by now have) something that's already established. invenio t c 14:55, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Related project
Someone interested in this subject may want to create an article for the Tuen Mun – Chek Lap Kok Link. This tunnel from the airport to New Territories is required because of this project. one source, second source - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Road, rail or both
What mode of traffic is the structure intended to carry? 182.93.34.10 (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Road only. Citobun (talk) 10:53, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Macau/Macao
Both spellings of Macau are used randomly in the article. Hongkongers and Macanese generally use Macau. Beijingers prefer Macao for some reason. So I guess I know which will win out. Anyway, it's inconsistent now. 202.81.249.34 (talk) 22:31, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The move was undiscussed and I've reverted it. Wikipedia usually uses the "Macau" spelling anyway. If people want to move it back, IMO its better to be done through an official page move request  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  07:31, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Dear Wiki staff: It's long past time for you to do what real publications do: Choose one style guide and one dictionary, and use their recommendations to resolve all such disputes. As a longtime copy editor at two big-circ. American mags -- as one who has perused style guides and dictionaries aplenty -- I urge you to choose The Chicago Manual of Style and the online Oxford dictionary (British and world English, not US English). BTW, Oxford opts for "Macao." Thanks. (And apologies if the preceding is incorrectly formatted; I've not contributed to such pages before.)  00:51, Sat 27 Oct 18 (UTC)
 * Macao sems to look better in Portuguese, but would have to have a tilde over the "a" als in mão for hand, or pão for bread, ocupação for occupation, colonização for colonization, and região for Region in the terrory's official name "Região Administrativa Especial de Macau da República Popular da China" (RAEM). But the Macau authorities themselves are not consistent. So the tourism industry advertises all kinds of "Macao" activities: See hhttps://www.macaotourism.gov.mo/en/ Nonetheless, settling here for Macau is OK. --L.Willms (talk) 11:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

After looking around, it seems obvious to me, that the official usage is Macau in Portuguese, and Macao in English. See the main page of the Macao SAR government: https://www.gov.mo/en/ (English) and https://www.gov.mo/pt/ (Portuguese). The HZMB is spelled with "Macao" in official HK websites https://hzmb.hk/text/eng/about_overview_01.html and https://www.hyd.gov.hk/en/road_and_railway/index.html. So, while the discussion about renaming this particular article is closed, methinks that in future Wikipedia should follow the official practice by the government ruling the territory in question, i.e. the english language Wikipedia using "Macao", and the portuguese language Wikipedia using "Macau", and all other language versions using what they chose according to common practice in the countries speaking their particular language. --L.Willms (talk) 12:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

HKLR
The HKLR isn't counted as part of the HKMZB from a project point of view and it is not included in official sources as part of the HKMZB for the purpose of measuring the length of the HKMZB. 42.98.83.190 19:55, 20 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.98.83.190 (talk)
 * Hong Kong's Transport and Housing Bureau has mentioned as such on thier page: "The 55-km Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge (HZMB), comprising the 12km Hong Kong Link Road, 29.6km Main Bridge and 13.4km Zhuhai Link Road..." https://www.hzmb.gov.hk/en/ Jojoyee (talk) 14:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 14:28, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge → Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macao Bridge – "Macau" should be replaced by "Macao" for the following reasons:
 * 1) The English name on the road signs on the bridge uses "Macao" instead of "Macau". (photo 1)
 * 2) Actually, authorities of Hong Kong, Macao and Mainland China treats "Macao" as the official English name (while "Macau" as the official Portuguese name). (photo 2) Hargau (talk) 08:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Reluctant Oppose - While the photos you presented are enough for me to vote support, I just can't vote for it as such, while the city itself is at Macau. Truly sorry, but I believe that articles should use the spelling used for the parent articles. --Gonnym (talk) 11:48, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know why English Wikipedia does not use its official English name "Macao", but I think we can treat them as two separate cases. The evidence of the official name "Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macao Bridge" being used in Hong Kong, Macao and Mainland China is quite clear (link 1, link 2. link 3), therefore we can move this page first. For moving "Macau" to "Macao", it is such a huge change so it can be discussed later. --Hargau (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note, the Macau page had a move request in July, with result as "no consensus to move". From that move request, it seems that the "official English name" being Macao isn't a valid reason to move that page. Not sure if that should affect this move request. Natg 19 (talk) 03:38, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The Chinese might have chosen the Macao spelling to distance themselves from the previous Portuguese heritage associated with the Macau spelling, but this is my speculation. Brandmeistertalk  14:54, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The official Portuguese name is still "Macau". Actually, the English name "Macao" has a long history before Macao handovered to PRC. However, since Macao uses Portuguese much more than English, people often see the name "Macau" but seldom see the name "Macao", many people do not know the spellings are different in two languages, so they keep using the Portuguese name "Macau" in English. --Hargau (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose as the common English spelling is Macau. Citobun (talk) 12:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support We should go with the official name and not change it in favour of colonialism It's spelled "Macao" according to the bridge' official website. Openlydialectic (talk) 01:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose both name are official but Macau is more common than Macao in fact the Zhuhai Port uses "Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge" see image here https://weiwenku.net/d/105046692. — ASDFGH (talk?) 05:21, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on local English-language sources: South China Morning Post uses Macau for the bridge; RTHK (public broadcaster) uses Macau; Hong Kong Free Press seems to be inconsistent; Macau Post Daily uses Macau. feminist (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose The relevant guidelines all suggest that the common English name/spelling should be used instead of the official name, see: WP:COMMONNAME, WP:ENGLISH (summarized on naming convention guideline: WP:UE), and WP:CHINESE ("Use pinyin for place names in China unless another form is more well-established in current English usage. (ex. Sichuan not Szechwan, but Hong Kong not Xianggang). Past English usage which has fallen into disuse in modern English-language sources, such as "Canton" and "Tsingtao" should not be used to title an article.") and WP:CHINESE ("When naming articles of expressways, highways, railways, railway stations, or airports in China, use the common English name if it can be determined"). The pinyin transliteration is "Aomen" in Mandarin or "Oumún" in Cantonese (according to Names of Macau and Macau), so the common English name should be used. Alternative names/spellings should be a redirect (which already exists with the Macao spelling) and also mentioned in the beginning of the article. Per WP:OTHERNAMES: "When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. ... All significant alternative titles, names, or forms of names that apply to a specific article should usually be made to redirect to that article. If they are ambiguous, it should be ensured that the article can at least be reached from a disambiguation page for the alternative term." AHeneen (talk) 09:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support, since the official name of the bridge is spelled with "Macao". There's a fair amount of Wikipedia articles whose titles already contain "Macao". Most project/contractor websites use "Macao"; the Standard consistently uses "Macao" but also calls the city "Macau", and goes out of its way to use official names containing "Macao" while retaining the "Macau" spelling for the actual city.  I think some of those guidelines would be interpreted differently for this article; the bridge isn't a settlement or other locality, and it's partially in Hong Kong (where English is an official language). Jc86035 (talk) 14:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment From commonly seen sources, it seems that both spellings are used, often inconsistently even by the same organizations, eg. the BBC was using the "macau" and "macao" for this bridge, along with the HKFP etc. It might be best to wait a while and see what the consensus spelling becomes. 150.251.3.1 (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose No reason to, as it is commonly called “Macau” as Hong Kongers and Macanese alike use this spelling. There is no reason to change it to a more “Chinese” spelling with the fact that the inhabitants themselves call it as “Macau”.   Oshawott 12  ==== Talk to me!  12:22, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose WP:OFFICIALNAME -- official names are not used on Wikipedia because they are official, common names are used. And "Macau" in the name seems more common. -- 65.94.42.18 (talk) 04:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support The official name is definately the Hong Kong – Zhuhai – Macao Bridge, according to, and from most of the major sources of news that talks about this bridge itself instead of the city, the spelling "Macao" is used, e.g. , , , , etc. --Yejianfei (talk) 08:00, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. The name of the Wikipedia article on the former Portuguese colony is Macau, which is the commonly used spelling. However, it has also been noted that the official name contains "Macao". epicgenius (talk) 02:45, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - Agree with the users who support the move. Just follow the new structure's official name as from 24 October, 2018 (i.e., the modern name). This is not about "Macau" or "Macao" itself. Besides, even if "Macau" is the common name, that does not make "Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge" also the common name. STSC (talk) 20:19, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Support Naming in sources of the bridge itself (and not the S.A.R.), as demonstrated by Yejianfei, Jc86035, and others, is spelled with an o. I daresay it is a similar reasoning to PKU versus "Beijing University". Caradhras Aiguo ( leave language ) 21:09, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support the official website use "Macao" instead of "Macau", which showed that the former one is the official name. --B dash (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - no reason not to follow the name listed on the bridge itself. Are we conceited enough to suggest that China can't spell the name of their bridge properly? Red   Slash  21:42, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose Even we are discussing how that is officially called, please note that the Zhuhai Port (the vehicle checkpoint on the Zhuhai-Macau artifical island) is using Macau, so there's confusions even in the officially installed plaques, thus let's keep using common Latin script name. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:24, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. When the WP:OFFICIAL name differs from usage in reliable English sources,, we follow the latter. --В²C ☎ 17:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: please relist. I would relist, but I just participated, so am asking next closer who sees this to relist. It's had a lot of participation but discussion remains active. No hurry... --В²C ☎ 17:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:CONSUB; subtopic titles should generally follow the supertopic title. bd2412  T 04:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macao Bridge is not a subtopic of Macao. It involves three locations. STSC (talk) 19:59, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This isn’t Java. Multiple inheritance is allowed. It’s a subtopic of all three. —В²C ☎ 05:58, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

 * Oppose, even the article for the territory is located at Macau despite "Macao" being its official spelling  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  14:12, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Environmental impact
Has there been no discussion of the environmental effects? Article I have read refer to it, but I'm surprised to see it lacking from the 'effects' section of this article. Orathaic (talk) 12:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Well, I am not an experts, but why would there be any effect? The approaches on the land were developed years ago, and the bridge itself is just a bridge. It's not blocking the waterway even for the largest of animals nor influences the currents, so I am not sure there should be any. I mean, it's not a mound like the Putin's bridge in the occupied Crimea Openlydialectic (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * This, this and this might all be relevant. Jc86035 (talk) 12:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to ignore it. All information should be on Wikipedia if it is important enough. There is a reason this is a 'free encyclopedia'.   Oshawott 12  ==== Talk to me!  23:48, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * STSC added it on 28 October 2018 and I think it's a good point. Jojoyee (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Bridge length
Many international sources quote the length of the link as 55 km. Sources in this article's "Route and elements" section demonstrate that the length of the fixed link between the Macau/Zhuhai border crossing and Chek Lap Kok (Hong Kong) is 39 km. The sources that publish "55 km" seem to be including related but separate projects such as the Tuen Mun–Chek Lap Kok Link (TM-CLKL), which has yet to even open. As the two pieces of infrastructure are operationally independent of one another (i.e. the HZMB could function normally whether or not the TM-CLKL were built, and vice versa), and as they span two different geographical obstacles (Lingdingyang vs Urmston Road), it is misleading to bundle the two lengths together. The two projects are also separated by lengthy stretches of motorway on previously existing land (Chek Lap Kok). Citobun (talk) 01:41, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 * The HZMB is 55 km, excluding TM-CLKL. It comprises three main sections: the Main Bridge (29.6 km) in the middle of the Pearl River estuary, the Hong Kong Link Road (12 km) in the east and the Zhuhai Link Road (13.4km) in the west of the estuary. I'll add more details about this in the article soon. Jojoyee (talk) 03:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Is the part entirely in Zhuhai considered to be part of the bridge? The Hong Kong project website indicates that it isn't. OpenStreetMap says the bridge length is about 43 km including the Hong Kong link road. Jc86035 (talk) 08:52, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Thanks for checking out Jc. Based on my understanding, the context "Through its link in Zhuhai" implies that it is HZMB's Zhuhai Link Road. I don't think the Map data is complete, neither the Google Map has updated about the link. I've edited the article about the three sections of the HZMB project, with various citations. Jojoyee (talk) 09:44, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Here the Xinhua Headlines also reported that "the Y-shaped construction spans over the Lingding Channel in south China meandering for 55 km." http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/23/c_137553194.htm Jojoyee (talk) 10:37, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't know much about the Zhuhai side. But I find it extremely dubious to include anything beyond the link's landfall at Chek Lap Kok (a pre-existing island) in the total length. Citobun (talk) 07:17, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

 * A new artificial island housing the HKBCF is located at the north-eastern side of the pre-existing island Chek Lap Kok.

 * The HKLR is clearly specified here http://www.hzmb.hk/eng/about_overview_02.html

 * "The HKLR comprises a 9.4km long viaduct section going from the HKSAR boundary to Scenic Hill on the Airport Island; follow by a 1km tunnel section to the reclamation formed along the east coast of the Airport Island and a 1.6km long at-grade road section on the reclamation connecting to the HKBCF."

 * HKLR is also an intergral part of the HZMB project as stated here http://www.hzmb.hk/eng/about_uniqueness.html.Jojoyee (talk) 12:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

 * See also the press release on construction of the Hong Kong Link Road of HZMB. https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201801/20/P2018011901035.htm Jojoyee (talk) 12:56, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

 * Also a map showing the HKLR https://www.hyd.gov.hk/en/road_and_railway/hzmb_projects/6787th/HZM6844TH-PD0005.pdf sourced from https://www.hyd.gov.hk/en/road_and_railway/hzmb_projects/6787th/index.html Jojoyee (talk) 13:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

 * I know. But that section of the HKLR doesn't form part of the bridge to Zhuhai. It's just a road in Hong Kong territory. So it seems dubious that this article portrays a 55-kilometre-long sea crossing, which is not really the case. Citobun (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't see why it is dubious. It has been clearly stated in the article with citations from reliable sources that the HZMB consists of three parts, namely Zhuhai LR, the main bridge and the HKLR. The 12-km HKLR, which is under the HK territory, is part and parcel of the HZMB. I'd appreciate it if anyone can give a reliable source which claims otherwise. Jojoyee (talk) 03:58, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Removal of well-sourced explicitly bridge-related allegation

 * This edit by me yesterday added the paragraph below to the Controversies section, with the edit description "unlike mere hints before, this allegation is explicitly connected to Xi and the bridge opening; but please feel free to shorten the section". It was removed an hour later by User:Jojoyee with this edit, with the edit description "Rm a paragraph, of which source does not say the cause of the death is due to the project. Please discuss it in a Talk page."
 * So, as requested, I am taking it up here on the Talk Page.
 * This is a well-sourced explicitly bridge-related allegation (the source explicitly alleges misconduct occurred in order to avoid disturbing the opening of the bridge and President Xi's related visit), so it belongs in the article, per WP:NOTCENSORED. (And incidentally, the logical place to include it would seem to be the Controversies section, which is where I put it).
 * It is true that "source does not say the cause of the death is due to the project", but it is also irrelevant, since the paragraph doesn't say it is, and does say what the source says.
 * I don't have much of a problem with adjusting some of the wording, and perhaps shortening some of the text (tho if done carelessly this may make it harder for our readers to understand what is being alleged).
 * For instance the section title might be changed to something like Allegation of overhasty processing of a reported Macao Suicide or Allegation of inappropriate processing of a reported Macao Suicide or Allegation related to visit by President Xi Jinping or whatever anybody else might prefer.
 * But, as already mentioned, per WP:NOTCENSORED, I have a very big problem with simply suppressing all mention of the allegation.
 * Incidentally, 'reading between the lines', I suspect those making the allegation may be being very brave, even if it's likely too difficult and/or dangerous for them to be as specific as one might wish. But there may be other sources which can be more specific, in which case it might improve the article (which is the purpose of this Talk page) if some editor could find and use them. But for the time being we just have to stick with the sources that we've got.

For ease of viewing, the removed paragraph (with a citation fix) is as follows:
 * Allegation related to a reported Macao Suicide

Bruce Lui Ping-kuen, convener of Hong Kong's Independent Commentators Association, claimed that in order to avoid speculation that might disturb Chinese President Xi Jinping's visit and the opening of the bridge, Beijing had been too quick to conclude that Zheng Xiaosong, director of the Macau Liaison Office, who died in Macau three days before the official opening of the bridge after falling from a tall building where he lived,  had died while suffering from depression, a conclusion they announced even before the completion of the investigation by the Macao police. .The Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office in Beijing issued a statement saying that he had suffered from depression, with the implication that he had committed suicide. On Chinese social media many expressed concern and sadness about his depression, but others noted that at least 7 other Chinese officials have fallen from buildings this year, with one injured and at least 6 dead. Although there is no evidence that Zheng was suspected of corruption,  in recent years hundreds of mid-level Chinese officials accused of corruption have died, reportedly by suicide, although observers have doubted such accounts. Such deaths have been much more common during Xi's presidency than during that of his predecessor Hu Jintao. The Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office has been investigated for corruption since 2016 by the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection and criticized by it for its "six sins", and other Hong Kong and Macao official organizations have also been suspected of corruption.

 * Regards,Tlhslobus (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Tlhslobus for working together on Wikipedia's HZMB article and bring it up for discussion on the Talk page. My understanding from the news reports is as follows: the 59-year old Zheng Xiaosong, Director of China's liaison office in Macau, died on 20 October 2018 after falling from his residential building. The reason for his sudden death is so far unknown. This event occurred three days before the official opening ceremony of the HZMB. For this timing alone, I don't think it is noteworthy to add it to the Controversies section of the HZMB article at Wikipedia, unless there's any further development revealing that it was related to the HZMB project. What do you think fellow editors? Jojoyee (talk) 13:54, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply, Jojoyee. However I must emphasize again that, once again contrary to what you claim, what is being said (in the paragraph that your edit has suppressed) is NOT (repeat NOT) about "this timing alone". What is being said, and what we are currently suppressing, contrary to WP:NOTCENSORED, is an explicit sourced allegation that inappropriate action occurred (after his death), an inappropriate action which is explicitly alleged to be in order to avoid "disturbing" both President Xi's visit and the bridge's opening. However I agree with you that some feedback from other editors would be very helpful, and may spare us a lot of hassle involving things like formal dispute resolution (preferably before any of this ends up drawing the attention of the media and/or Wikipedia's critics to the apparent inappropriate censoring of Wikipedia, etc, attention which, incidentally, probably would not be welcome in Beijing ruling circles either.) Tlhslobus (talk) 12:19, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Agreed with that Wikipedia is not censored. However, Wikipedia also provides that the offensive material, when used, should be relevant to the article. At WP:NOR, it also guides us to be able to cite reliable, published sources that are "directly related" to the topic of the article. According to the Standard's news report, the Convener of the ICA said that Beijing wanted to eliminate room for speculation on Zheng's death in order not to disturb Xi's visit and the opening of the bridge. Based on my understanding, the Convener's view in the report is more related to the controversies about Zheng's death or Beijing's politics, than the controversies about the HZMB bridge. I hope this understanding achieves a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), as one of the core content policies of Wikipedia, and the HZMB article can be represented fairly and proportionately as required. Jojoyee (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

 * You guys do share the common sense that for a major city like Macao there are people dying literally every day of all kinds of reasons right? Are we supposed to link every murder or crime or death that happened several days around the time the topic of a wikipedia page and make them all political conspiracies and list them in the page? Or are you going to argue that because Xi is in beijing, no crime or murder ever happens in that city otherwise it would disturb him? Many of the so called "sources" are also ridiculously low effort in their writing and wording, with layers and layers of nuanced speculations after another that they are no more "source" than speculations/views with agendas on their own.

 * Thanks for your reply, Jojoyee (and, incidentally, congratulations on seemingly winning this argument). I strongly disagreed with your previous points, and I now strongly disagree with your latest point that this was OR (Original Research). The explicit wording of the source made it quite clear that it directly related to the bridge. If the fact that an editor could claim to see it as referring more to other things were to be accepted as making it OR, then almost anything in Wikipedia could and would be censored as OR. But to continue this discussion seems more hassle than it's worth, especially as even if you were to concede my point there is presumably a never-ending supply of other points that could be raised by you and/or by others (and probably not just confined to the likes of the above unsigned comment, which is from an anonymous IP in Japan who has ostensibly made no other contributions to Wikipedia but is apparently nonetheless to be accepted as some kind of authority on what constitutes "common sense" regarding what should appear in Wikipedia). Some of these new points might even turn out to be correct. But even if none are, this would then just be one more tiny drop in what is already the vast ocean of witting and unwitting censorship of Wikipedia, so it hardly seems worth bothering about. So, per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY and WP:BNO, I am now withdrawing from the discussion (and the credit for this is all yours, as I was planning to do so before I was even aware of the above anonymous contribution, whose only effect was to somewhat delay my concession while I considered how to deal with it). So unless others take over instead of me, which seems unlikely, you appear to have won this argument, and indeed won it in effect single-handedly, so once again, congratulations. Regards. Tlhslobus (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * replying to the above comment, im the one with jp ip address, since when did I claim that i have authority on "common sense", and how is one in need of being the "authority of common sense" to point out others' lack of common sense in their argument? You do understand what common sense mean i sincerely hope? As I found your insecurity quite hilarious that you had to look up the location of my ip address just to even argue with me(and by arguing with me, clearly to you it means discrediting me (which is called ad hominem, as this notion seems completely new to you). And could you not make everything about "censorship"? Seems to you that anything no matter how far fetched and totally unrelated must be listed otherwise its censorship. Honestly I dont even know why am I wasting time here with someone like you. In the spirit of your glorious freedom of speech, please do list all the things and anything you love to on the page(otherwise clearly im censoring you), pleast do go ahead.
 * Appreciated your kind reply and glad that we can close this topic here. Your point of view is nevertheless well noted. Jojoyee (talk) 13:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jojoyee. Tlhslobus (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

The first map
The first map in the infobox shows an area of empty sea. If you click on it and zoom out far enough, you find that in the Gulf of Guinea. I would correct it, but I've no idea what it's meant to show. Maproom (talk) 08:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Underground tunnel is mentioned but not explained.
Why mention it at all? 61.15.85.96 (talk) 13:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge


text:
CBS Records (2006)

CBS Records was a record label founded by CBS Corporation in 2006 to take advantage of music from its entertainment properties owned by CBS Studios. The initial label roster consisted of only three artists: rock band Señor Happy and singer/songwriters Will Dailey and P.J. Olsson.

The label relied primarily on digital distribution such as iTunes and on direct sales from its own website. However, it signed a deal to distribute compact discs through RED Distribution, a subsidiary of Sony Music Entertainment which CBS Inc. formerly owned. CBS Records was headquartered at Television City in Los Angeles.

The "CBS Records" name was also used in the 1960s to release Columbia Records products outside the US and Canada. This was necessary because EMI owned another record label called Columbia, which operated in every market except North America, Spain and Japan. CBS sold the record company in 1988 to Sony. In 1991, the CBS label was officially renamed Columbia Records and the company was renamed Sony Music Entertainment.

Artists

 * Will Dailey
 * Keaton Simons
 * Karmina
 * Sharon Little
 * P.J. Olsson
 * Señor Happy
 * The Wilshires
 * You Are I Am

Soundtracks

 * NCIS

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: CBS Records (2006)


text:
John Wintermeyer

John Joseph Wintermeyer (December 4, 1916 – December 20, 1993) was a politician in Ontario, Canada. He was a Liberal member of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from 1955 to 1963 who represented the riding of Waterloo North. From 1958 to 1963 he served as leader of the Liberal party.

Background
Wintermeyer was born and raised in Kitchener, Ontario. His parents were Alfred and Caroline Wintermeyer. He attended University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana and graduated with a degree in Commerce and Philosophy in 1939. He then went to Harvard Law School and later Dalhousie Law School. He became a lawyer and returned to his home town to begin his practice. In 1949 he established his own firm which became known as Wintermeyer Askin Casey Smith. In 1944, he marry Helen Delaney and together they raised seven children. After Helen died in 1972, he married Elizabeth Ann Lang Greene in 1980.

Politics
Wintermeyer enter politics as a municipal alderman for Kitchener City Council. He served three terms before moving to provincial politics.

In the 1955 provincial election, Wintermeyer ran as the Liberal candidate in the riding of Waterloo North. He defeated Progressive Conservative incumbent Stanley Francis Leavine by 2,264 votes. and was chosen leader of the Ontario Liberal Party in 1958.

In the 1959 election, the Liberals under Wintermeyer's leadership increased their legislative caucus from 10 to 21, but were unable to prevent the ruling Ontario Progressive Conservative Party of Premier Leslie Frost from winning another majority. In the campaign, Wintermeyer promoted policies such as universal medicare, improvements to general welfare assistance, amalgamation of the various municipalities that made up Metropolitan Toronto, and full funding of Catholic schools. Wintermeyer had long been an advocate of a provincial sales tax, which put him in a difficult position when the Frost government introduced a 3% retail sales tax in 1961. While Wintermeyer personally supported the tax, his caucus did not, and he was forced to publicly renounce his support.

In the 1963 election, the Liberals increased their total seats by two, but Wintermeyer lost his seat of Waterloo North, and he resigned as party leader. He was succeeded as party leader by Andy Thompson.

Later life
After leaving politics, He served as director of television station CKCO in Kitchener and was also a director at Kent Trust until it merged with Metropolitan Trust. He served as chairman of the board of Bauer Industries and director of York Centre Corporation. He also served as chair of the Metro Toronto Roman Catholic high schools and the Canadian Olympic Association. He died in 1993 after suffering from Lou Gehrig's disease.

title: John Wintermeyer


text:
Oryol

Oryol (Орёл, lit. 'eagle'), also transliterated as Orel or Oriol, is a city and the administrative center of Oryol Oblast, Russia, situated on the Oka River, approximately 368 km south-southwest of Moscow. It is part of the Central Federal District, as well as the Central Economic Region.

Early history
While there are no historical records, archaeological evidence shows that a fortress settlement existed between the Oka River and Orlik Rivers as early as the 12th century, when the land was a part of the Principality of Chernigov. The name of the fortress is unknown; it may not have been called Oryol at the time. In the 13th century, the fortress became a part of the Zvenigorod district of the Karachev Principality. In the early 15th century, the territory was conquered by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The city was soon abandoned by its population after being sacked either by Lithuanians or the Golden Horde. The territory became a part of the Tsardom of Russia in the 16th century.

Tsardom of Russia
Ivan IV Vasilyevich decreed that a new fortress be built on the spot in 1566 for the purpose of defending the southern borders of the country. The fortress was built starting in the summer of 1566 and ending in the spring of 1567. The location chosen was less than ideal strategically, as the fortress was located on a seasonally flooded low ground easily targeted from the neighboring high ground. False Dmitry I and his army passed through Oryol in 1605; Ivan Bolotnikov in 1606; False Dmitry II camped in Oryol for the winter of 1607–1608. Polish forces sacked it in 1611 and 1615. While the population fled after the second sacking and moved to Mtsensk, the Orlovsky Uyezd continued to exist administratively.

Oryol was rebuilt in 1636. The question of moving the fortress to the more advantageous high ground was debated until the 1670s, but the move was never made. The fortress was deemed unnecessary and taken apart in the early 18th century.

Russian Empire
In the mid-18th century Oryol became one of the major centers of grain production, with the Oka River being the major trade route until the 1860s when it was replaced by a railroad.

Oryol was granted town status in 1702. In 1708, Oryol was included as a part of Kiev Governorate; in 1719, Oryol Province was created within Kiev Governorate. The Province was transferred to the newly created Belgorod Governorate in 1727. On March 11 (February 28 old style), 1778 Oryol Vice-Royalty was created from parts of Voronezh and Belgorod Governorates. In 1779, the city was almost entirely rebuilt based on a new plan; and the Oryol River was renamed Orlik (lit: "little eagle").

Russian Republic
After the October Revolution of 1917, the city was in Bolshevik's hands, except for a brief period between October 13 and October 20, 1919, when it was controlled by Anton Denikin's White Army.

Soviet Union
Oryol was once again moved between different oblasts in the 1920s and 1930s: first as Oryol Governorate until 1928, then Central Black Earth Region between 1928 and 1934, finally in Kursk Oblast), finally becoming the administrative center of its own Oryol Oblast on September 27, 1937.

The Oryol Prison was a notable place of incarceration for political prisoners and war prisoners of the Second World War. Christian Rakovsky, Maria Spiridonova, Olga Kameneva and 160 other prominent political prisoners were shot on September 11, 1941 on Joseph Stalin's orders in the Medvedev Forest massacre outside Oryol.

During the German-Soviet War, Oryol was occupied by the Wehrmacht on October 7, 1941.

The French air squadron Normandie-Niemen fought in the skies over Oryol.

Oryol was liberated on August 5, 1943 during the Oryol strategic offensive operation "Kutuzov" on the Oryol-Kursk Bulge. The city was almost completely destroyed. By Order No .2 of I. V. Stalin of August 5, 1943, on this day in Moscow, an artillery salute was given to the troops that liberated Oryol. Since then, the city has had the nickname, "City of the First Salute", and the day of the liberation from the German invaders was celebrated as the city's day.

On September 19, 1943, in the Oryol, was the first parade of partisan units stationed in the Oryol region during the war.

Time zone
Oryol has the same time zone as Moscow (Moscow time), or UTC+03:00.

Location
Oryol stands on the banks of the Oka River and its tributary Orlik river in the Central Russian Upland of the East European Plain, approximately 368 km south-southwest of Moscow.

Layout
Oryol was founded at the behest of Ivan the Terrible in 1566, in the area between the Oka and Orlik rivers. Little information exists about its early history; the earliest data available refers to 1636, when the city was rebuilt after its destruction during the Time of Troubles. According to historian T. G. Svistunova, the 16th-century Oryol fortress had three lines of fortifications and consisted of a city, an ostrog and a posad surrounded by gaps. The city housed a cathedral, a voivode's (warlord or military leader's) house, government buildings and courts for the boyar children; the prison consisted of gunners' yards, a blacksmith, and two parish churches near the prison towers. In the posad was a sloboda. In 1636, Oryol was rebuilt by the voivode B. Koltovsky; it expanded with annexation of land beyond the Oka. Oryol remained a fortress city with a corresponding garrison; Pushkarskaya Sloboda was still located in the prison, boyar children and nobles settled on the left bank of the Orlik, and a Cossack sloboda developed near the Oka. Oryol lost its military character after the 1689 fire, when the partially-burned city fortress was not rebuilt.

In central Oryol, streets fan out from the fortress; two main axes are the Upper and Lower Korchak Roads. Opposite the fortress was probably a second marketplace in the Zaotsk section, where the dragoon settlements had a relatively-regular layout along the river. Away from the river, the grid becomes a fan. The city – its fortress, three marketplaces, two monasteries and a number of parish churches – was developed from the river. Its structure was visible from the Oka: the central fortress, the fan-shaped center and the grid of the Zaotsk settlements. The city was connected by bridges, making Oryol a military fortress and a trade center.

The city's earliest plans, by Mikhail Buzovlev and Petr Botvinev, date to 1728. A 1778 plan fixed its radial layout, and a radial-semicircular system was proposed the following year. In 1848, a new plan including Polesskaya Square was approved.

Oryol's modern layout was developed in 1939 by Suborov, an architect at the Leningrad branch of Giprogor. The first post-war reconstruction plan was made in Lengiprogor under the direction of architect V. A. Gaikovich. Oryol's development required a new general plan, which was drawn up in 1958 by V. A. Gaikovich and A. M. Suborov of Lengiprogor. The city's center was Lenin Square, on which the House of Soviets was built in 1961. In 1966, construction of flood-control embankments in the central city began.

Climate
Oryol has a humid continental climate (Köppen climate classification Dfb). Winters are moderately cold and changeable. The first half is softer, second with often warmings. Summers are warm, in separate years — they can be rainy or hot and dry.

Administrative and municipal status
Oryol is the administrative center of the oblast and, within the framework of administrative divisions, it also serves as the administrative center of Orlovsky District, even though it is not a part of it. As an administrative division, it is incorporated separately as the city of oblast significance of Oryol—an administrative unit with the status equal to that of the districts. As a municipal division, the city of oblast significance of Oryol is incorporated as Oryol Urban Okrug.

City districts
Administratively, the city is divided into four districts:
 * Severny (Северный) — population: 65,815 (2021)
 * Sovetsky (Советский) — population: 74,315 (2021)
 * Zheleznodorozhny (Железнодорожный) — population: 60,278 (2021)
 * Zavodskoy (Заводской) — population: 103,288 (2021) (the biggest, oldest, and most populous)

Politics
In February 2012, the city duma abolished the direct election of mayor. In December 2013, a referendum was held and 71% of the people supported the return of direct mayoral election.

Mayors

 * 1991–1997: Alexander Kislyakov
 * 1997–2002: Yefim Velkovsky
 * 2002–2006: Vasily Uvarov
 * 2006–2009: Alexander Kasyanov
 * 2009–2010: Vasily Eremin
 * 2010–2012: Viktor Safianov
 * 2012–2015: Sergey Stupin
 * 2015–2020: Vasily Novikov
 * 2020–present: Yuri Parakhin

City-managers:
 * 2012–2015: Mikhail Bernikov
 * 2015–2017: Andrey Usikov
 * 2017–2020: Alexander Muromsky

Demographics
According to the Federal State Statistics Service, in January 2020 the number of residents came to 308 838. It is the 66th place among 1117 cities of Russia for 2019.

Largest ethnic groups in 2010:
 * Russians (96,8%)
 * Ukrainians (1,1%)
 * Armenians (0,4%)
 * Belarusians (0,3%)
 * Azerbaijanis (0,2%)
 * Tatars (0,1%)
 * Jews (0,1%)

Transportation
The formation of the Oryol as an important transportation hub is due to the favorable geographical position of the city on the borders of the Central and Central Black Earth economic regions.

The city has trolley, tram and bus systems. These kinds of public transport cover the entire territory of the city. Each bus, tram and trolley is equipped with route indicators that inform about the route through the city, designated stops. There are also taxis and rental cars.

In past years, in the summer on the Oka River waterbus operated as a form of transport excursion and walking orientation.

Automotive
In the Oryol converge important highways of federal and regional values:
 * "Crimea"
 * 54А-1
 * 54К-16
 * 54А-1
 * 54К-16
 * 54К-16

The main intercity terminal: Oryol Bus Station

Trolleybus
On 29 October 1968, a regular movement was opened. Length of the contact network 76.51 km. There are 4 routes for 2019.

Railway
Since 1868, there has been a railway connection between Oryol and Moscow. Here converge 5 railway lines: on Yelets, Moscow, Kursk, Bryansk, Mikhailovsky mine.

The main terminals: Oryol Station, Station Luzhki-Oryol.

Tram
On November 3, 1898, Oryol inaugurated an electric tram. The draft was prepared by the Belgian entrepreneur FF Gilon and firm «Compagnie mutuelle de tramways», which won the right to build not only a tram, but also lighting in the city. Oryol tram is one of the oldest electric tram systems in Russia. It is 1 year older than Moscow and 9 years — St. Petersburg. In 2017, the length of the lines in double-track calculation was 18.3 km. For 2019, there are 3 routes, which are operated: Tatra T3 (74 units), Tatra T6B5 (13 units), 71-403 (1 unit), 71-405 (1 unit).

Aerial
The city is served by the Oryol Yuzhny Airport, which is currently not working.

Education
There are six institutions of higher education in Oryol, as well as four branches of such institutions from other cities.
 * Local
 * Oryol Law Institute
 * Oryol State Agrarian University
 * Oryol State Institute of Culture
 * Oryol State Institute of Economics and Trade
 * Oryol State University
 * Russian Federation Security Guard Service Federal Academy

 * Branches
 * Oryol Branch of the Russian University of Transport (Moscow)
 * Oryol Branch of the Russian Presidential Academy of National Economy and Public Administration (Moscow)
 * Oryol branch of the Financial University under the Government of the Russian Federation (Moscow)
 * Oryol branch of the Voronezh Institute of Economics and Law (Voronezh)

Twin towns – sister cities
Oryol is twinned with:

 * 🇧🇬 Razgrad, Bulgaria (1968)
 * 🇩🇪 Offenbach am Main, Germany (1988)
 * Leeuwarden, The Netherlands (1990–2002)
 * 🇧🇾 Zhodzina, Belarus (2016)
 * 🇹🇲 Mary, Turkmenistan (2017)

Partner cities

 * 🇷🇺 Kaluga, Russia (2003)
 * 🇷🇺 Kolpino, Russia (2010)
 * 🇷🇺 Kolpinsky District, Russia (2010)
 * 🇷🇺 Novosibirsk, Russia (2014)
 * 🇷🇺 Volokolamsky District, Russia (2014)
 * 🇷🇸 Novi Sad, Serbia (2017)
 * 🇸🇮 Maribor, Slovenia (2017)
 * 🇷🇺 Penza, Russia (2018)

Notable people

 * Leonid Andreyev, writer
 * Mikhail Bakhtin, literary critic
 * Fedor Baranov, fisheries scientist
 * Denis Boytsov, boxer
 * Yulia Bravikova, rhythmic gymnast
 * Felix Dzerzhinsky, security chief
 * Afanasy Fet, poet
 * Nikolai Getman, painter and Gulag survivor
 * Timofey Granovsky, historian
 * Vasily Kalinnikov (1866–1901), composer
 * Yakov Kasman, pianist
 * Anna Petrovna Kern, socialite
 * Stanislav Lebamba, association football player
 * Nikolai Leskov, novelist
 * Denis Menchov, cyclist
 * Artem Mikoyan, founder of the MiG aircraft manufacturer
 * Fritz Noether, mathematician
 * Nikolai Polikarpov, aviation designer
 * Yevgeni Preobrazhensky, statesman
 * Vladimir Karlovich Roth, neuropathologist
 * Valerian Safonovich, statesman
 * Aleksandr Selikhov, footballer
 * Alexey Stakhanov, celebrated miner/engineer
 * Pyotr Stolypin, statesman
 * Maksymilian Stratanowski, painter
 * Yakov Sverdlov, Bolshevik revolutionary
 * Ivan Turgenev, novelist and playwright
 * Aleksey Petrovich Yermolov, military general
 * Gennady Zyuganov, politician
 * Korsak-Koulagnikov, collegiate secretary Aleksey Ivanovich, titular councilor Vasili Ivanovich, provincial secretary Petr Grigorievich and his brother Mardari Grigorievich were reckoned among the nobility of the province of Orel in 1815 after examination the proofs of nobility registered in the 6th part of the Noble Register of Chernigov province

title: Oryol


text: User talk:62.171.194.8

title: User talk:62.171.194.8


text:
Sue Lawley

Susan Lawley (born 14 July 1946) is a retired English television and radio broadcaster. Her main broadcasting background involved television news and current affairs. From 1988 to 2006, Lawley was the presenter of Desert Island Discs on BBC Radio 4.

Early life and education
Sue Lawley was born at Sedgley, near Dudley, in July 1946, and was a pupil at Dudley Girls High School. She studied modern languages at the University of Bristol, where she dropped her Dudley accent in favour of received pronunciation.

Career
She began her professional career as a trainee reporter on the Western Mail and South Wales Echo between 1967 and 1970, during which time she shared a house in Cardiff with Michael Buerk. She then moved to BBC Plymouth as a subeditor and freelance reporter from 1970 until 1972. In 1972, she worked as a sound recordist and then gained prominence as one of the reporters/presenters of BBC TV's news magazine Nationwide. She appeared on the show until 1975, when she was offered the main anchor role on the nightly news show Tonight.

In 1974, Lawley was part of the BBC's Election Team for the October General Election and in 1979, anchored the morning election results show the day after the general election night broadcast. Lawley left Tonight on maternity leave in 1978, being replaced by Valerie Singleton, and after her maternity leave, rejoined Nationwide as one of the two main anchors, alongside Frank Bough. Lawley remained with the show until it came to a close in 1983. During an interview with the Carpenters on Nationwide in 1981 she surprised Karen Carpenter by asking her directly about her anorexia, an eating disorder which contributed to her death in February 1983.

After Nationwide, Lawley became an anchor of the Nine O'Clock News bulletin on BBC1,  When Sir Robin Day suffered a heart attack, Lawley sat in for him as the chair of the topical discussion programme Question Time for several editions. In later years, Fiona Bruce was credited with being the first woman to host Question Time and the first woman to be part of the BBC's Election Night team, when in fact Lawley had performed both roles many years before Bruce. Lawley also provide cover for Wogan on his chat show while he was on Holiday.

In September 1984 Lawley become the lead Anchor of the newly launched Six O'Clock News. Lawley was praised after a broadcast on 23 May 1988, when the studio was invaded by protesters opposed to Section 28: she continued to read the news whilst co-presenter Nicholas Witchell restrained one of them. Shorty afterwards in July 1988 Lawley left the news.

In 1989, the BBC launched Lawley in her own Saturday night talk show titled Saturday Matters with Sue Lawley, which was received badly by critics and was cancelled after one series. The first guest interviewed was Sarah, Duchess of York. Lawley later left the BBC to work for ITV, but did little work for them, other than an occasional series of high-profile interviews, which included the Prime Minister, John Major. She returned to BBC1 in 1993 to host the show Biteback. Lawley was later part of ITN's presenting team in its ITV Election 97 coverage.

Lawley later introduced the BBC Radio 4 Reith Lectures and was also a board member of the English Tourism Council and English National Opera. In an interview in 2019 for an edition of BBC Radio 4's The Reunion, looking back at pioneering women newsreaders, Lawley confirmed to host Sue MacGregor that she is retired.

Guest appearances and Desert Island Discs
In 1981, she made a guest appearance in the Yes Minister episode "The Quality of Life", playing herself. Throughout the 1980s and into the early 1990s, Lawley was the regular stand-in for Terry Wogan on his BBC1 thrice-weekly chat show Wogan. From 1988 to 26 August 2006 Lawley was the presenter of Desert Island Discs on BBC Radio 4.

Personal life
Lawley was first married in 1975 to David Ashby, a solicitor. Lawley's second marriage was in 1987, to Hugh Williams, a television executive.

She was awarded the OBE in 2001.

title: Sue Lawley


text:
Talk:Macaque

Animal rights avdocate complaint
the picture of the poor monkey slouched over himself in a cage is the saddest thing i've seen all day. get rid of that picture, it makes you seem insensitive -

An "advocate" should know how to spell the word advocate. 80.58.35.46

 * The picture illustrates the cruel conditions that primates are held in for vivisection research. - UtherSRG 15:11, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Main Picture
What on EARTH is wrong with the eye of the monkey in the main picture. Surely there is a better pic out there!

Peanutaxis (talk) 11:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Not only that but I do not even think that it is a picture of a crab eating macaque. It looks more like a toque or bonnet macaque. If there are no objections I will find a photograph of a Japanese macaque to replace it with.

Skamnelis (talk) 15:15, 8 February 2013 (UTC) I have now replaced the main image which was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monkey_eating.jpg incorrectly identified as M. fascicularis and having an inflamed or necrotic right eye, with this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macaca_fuscata.jpg. Skamnelis (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The main photograph has been replaced by a photograph of a fuscata pair (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macaque&oldid=620228100#mediaviewer/File:Macaques_in_Sagano.jpg) owned by user Pundit without any comment. Although this is a lovely photograph in more senses than one, the general standard is to have a portrait of an individual animal focusing on the characteristics specific to the genus or species. Among the morphological characteristics of macaques are the close-set nostrils, their cheek-pouches, moderately elongated snout, absence of a rhinarium, fingers apposed by a small thumb, forward directed eyes, ischial callosities, arms and legs of similar length. The picture can stay for now but another focusing on these features would be preferable. Skamnelis (talk) 14:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC) I agree the lead image is now inappropriate - it shows far too little detail when viewed on the page itself. I am goinf to be BOLD and replace it with the previous one. The image of the pair may deserve a place elsewhere in the article__DrChrissy (talk) 12:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The photo of the pig tailed macaque is also very good, as are others in the various species subsections. The photograph of the fuscata pair can stay in the gallery until we have a subsection on macaque societies or affiliative behaviour. It could also be included in the M. fuscata subsection, e.g. in the section on group structure. Skamnelis (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree there are are other good photos. I'll try to make a multiple-image collage of various species for the taxo box - several other articles do this.  I'll bring it to this talk page to discuss.  The fuscata pair could also be used to illustrate their typical environment if this was introduced into the text.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * By all means, I am quite ignorant about standards for animal portraits :) I haven't even thought it is better not to have a pair. However, the previous image is basically quite substandard in terms of size. It does not seem very sharp neither. Perhaps something else can be added? Pundit | utter  15:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

 * As no-one objected, I replaced the main picture with a much higher resolution one from Commons, and moved the main one to the gallery (along with the previous one). Pundit | utter  06:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not really like the new lead photo as it is only a portrait. I always try to get a lead image that shows the whole body and perhaps some characteristic or behaviour such as eating.  However, I take the point that it is a better resolution.  I will go back to my idea of a collage of species and post it here for discussion.__DrChrissy (talk) 10:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

 * FYI - I've uploaded a slightly higher resolution pic of a macaque for potential use, but this is not great, neither. We need more monkeys! Pundit | utter  09:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC) Macaque in Nagano.jpg

This page is about to get a lot more traffic.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ""This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is. ... He's following us around everywhere. And it's just great," Allen said to appreciative laughter.

Doubtless no one present knew what "macaca" meant, but subsequently, those three syllables have caused a tectonic shift in the political plates. Literally, it's the name of a monkey common to North Africa and Asia; figuratively, it's a racial slur in some parts of the world.

And in the United States, effective last Friday, it's an eponym for "major political boo-boo."" http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I placed the Washington Post story in the external links. While the article is about a monkey, the term is used as a slur, as demonstrated by Senator George Allen's usage. Chriscarlos
 * And I'll be removing it again. There's an article for the racial slur. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

talk about macaques
I'm sorry if I don't understand the established institutions here, but why was the irrelevant discussion about racial slurs deleted from the talk page, but not the irrelevant discussion of vivisection? Is there a point after which it is acceptable to delete old stuff from a discussion page?

I've reverted the reversion so that people can see what I'm talking about, but don't mind if someone deletes this whole conversation, esp. if they tell me where it should be happening. --Jaibe 22:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Natasha had a stroke or stomach flu
The "Natasha (monkey) — a macaque who began walking on her hind legs after a stroke." doesn't match the information in the link it points to. The Natasha article says that the monkey suffered a stomach flu, not a stroke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.110.32.5 (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How do you say "Macaque"? Aaadddaaammm 07:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I say "Mahcack". - UtherSRG (talk) 10:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I say "Macack" (short a in both syllables), and so do the people I work with, but I've no idea whether we're right. I think the Latin version (Macaca) would be pretty universally pronounced with short "a"s, and I guess we just take that over into English.  seglea 22:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * On a WildBoyz episode Steve-O pronounces it "Mah'cock" - whether or not he changed the pronounciation for the sake of humour is unknown to me, but that's the pronounciation I'm using. Baribeau 22:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

That's ok, if you are in a comedy show.Skamnelis (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Material removed to species pages
There's some clutter on this page which belongs on individual species pages (if it belongs at all), and I'm shifting it. It includes:

 * Results of a research shows that male Crab-eating Macaques will groom females in order to get sex. The study found that a female has a greater likelihood to engage in sexual activity with a male if he had recently groomed her, compared to males who had not groomed her.

 * See also:
 * Britches (monkey) - an infant macaque used in sight-deprivation experiments who was removed from the laboratory by the Animal Liberation Front.
 * Nafovanny — the largest captive-breeding non-human primate facility in the world, housing 30,000 long-tailed macaques.
 * Natasha (monkey) — a macaque who began walking on her hind legs after a stroke.

seglea (talk) 11:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is highly unlikely that 90% of Macaques in captivity are carriers of Herpes B virus as this article claims... If no one can find a citation for that sentence then it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.95.6.122 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 26 June 2009

zati / Macacus pileatus / capped macaque
Are these other names for the bonnet macaque ? - Rod57 (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Killer Dolphins
As you know, the Killer Whale is actually a member of the dolphin branch of the cetaceans. As you also hopefully know, a Wikipedia editor does not have the personal authority to singlehandedly change the name to Killer Dolphins (nor Peace-Loving Dolphins).

Wikipedia editors must be reporters presenting facts as they exist, not activists trying to change facts. Neutral Point of View. No personal agendas. No innovations. No personal research.

But someone has gone through and changed all the macaque species articles to "[Name] Macaque", e.g. Barbary Ape to "Barbary Macaque", Formosan Rock Monkey to "Formosan Rock Macaque".

And this has been done crudely — or perhaps with a totalitarian intent to simply erase the past — because the traditional names are not even presented as an alternate, e.g. we don't find "The Barbary Macaque (traditionally Barbary Ape) is ..."

Now, if a conference of leading primatologists has passed a resolution calling for this renaming scheme, then you can change the article titles. While very clearly also giving the traditional name at the start of the article as the alternative, and explaining later that the species was only recently renamed and by whom.

Lacking that, if you can find an example of "Formosan Rock Macaque" in use, in print, in a scientific publication, PRIOR to these Wikipedia fabrications polluting reality on the Internet, then you can do "The Formosan Rock Monkey (or more correctly Formosan Rock Macaque[REF]) is ..."

In both cases, there should be a discussion in the article of the traditional use of monkey/ape based on physical type, versus use in phylogenic classification.

Note incidentally that the traditional use is not "scientifically wrong" as long as it is understood as a description and not a class. Saying "ape" is no different than saying "(large) tailless (ground) monkey" — which you're happy to say, despite taillessness not being a phylogenic definition. The "error" (and source of confusion) was really scientists deciding to appropriate the traditional description "ape" to apply to only one of the phylogenic groups that has ape-like characteristics. And in fact it is little in use in practice today in that sense, compared to Hominoidea, in serious publications.

I have posted this main comment here in the Macaque article — I will post referrals to this in each of the individual macaque species Talk sections as well. It is the list here in the Macaque article, and all the species article titles, and the intro text of all the species articles, which need to be addressed.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.30.135 (talk) 12:02, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

 * Before the 19th century, if Europeans managed to distinguish between "apes" lacking tails and "monkeys" with tails, then they were doing pretty good (considering that sometimes some people didn't bother to make such a distinction). However, subsequent scientific work revealed that the primates lacking tails were not all closely related, and that primates lacking tails did not form a valid grouping according to traditional taxonomy (much less cladistics).  I don't know why we're required to stick to an 18th-century understanding of the word "ape" in species naming... AnonMoos (talk) 13:36, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the feedback! On Wikipedia we follow published literature when naming articles. We have followed Mammal Species of the World volume 3 for the past five or six years, it is a standard taxonomic reference. As the book is now six years old, there are new species and new naming conventions so we use our best judgement in trying to get the current consensus. In your examples the common names in MSW3 for Macaca cyclopis and Macaca sylvanus are Formosan rock macaque and Barbary macaque respectively; other macaques are named similarly. In response to the accusation that there isn't a mention of the traditional name, see the article lead: "Although the species is commonly referred to as the "Barbary ape", the Barbary macaque is a true monkey, not an ape." Yeah this could be expanded further, we're not trying to erase the past, but instead that this article is incomplete. If you want to make additions that would be greatly appreciated! Cheers, Jack (talk) 09:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Article expansion
The article has a Start Class rating, due to lack of content. Could we agree on what content is needed? Evolution, phylogeny, morphology and related debates - whether a genus or a species, whether a single genus or two, etc. Social structure. Sexual dimorphism. Other ideas? Also I do not think the description section is always correct, e.g. macaques are not found in Southern Europe. Gibraltar is mentioned in the next sentence in any case. Skamnelis (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Legal Precedent?
How does someone refusing to remove a pic for which copyright is claimed, constitute "legal precedent"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.81.211.67 (talk) 21:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

There was an entry made on the 7th August 2014 with the following content: "Copyright test case. In 2014 selfies taken by a crested black macaque seemed set to establish legal precedent, after the Wikimedia Foundation rejected a copyright claim. The photos had been sold widely by David Slater, a professional nature photographer, whose camera was temporarily carried away by a group of macaques. After the photos were uploaded to Wikipedia, the organisation refused to delete them, claiming "This file is in the public domain, because as the work of a non-human animal, it has no human author in whom copyright is vested." Funny as that is, it has no place in the macaque article. It may have a place under copyright or copyright test cases. The alleged self-portraits remain in the article as of the 25th of August, causing some vandalism as follows: "since Wikipedia is edited by teenage mouthbreathers, we only have access to a photograph of one we do not own the rights to. Stealing photos of monkeys is like torrenting 'Burn Notice,' so it's cool we are young and poor! We can't afford actual encyclopedias, much less the rights to a photograph." dated also the 7th of August. The comment, later removed, may have originated in the photographer. It is unlikely these are self-portraits, even if the photographer has claimed so himself. The entire topic verges on the childish. Moreover, the text has been removed, leaving only the photographs in place. I would propose that the alleged self-portraits and any relevant discussion on copyrights is removed and taken, if necessary, elsewhere. Alternatively, the two photographs could be moved to the gallery. Other opinions? Skamnelis (talk) 12:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ooooops! I just moved one of these images to the gallery because it seemed totally irrelevant to the text section, and deleted the other image because it is so similar to the first.  I did this before reading the above, so hopefully my edit will be seen as an unbiased one.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Reference in taxobox title
There is a reference attached to the title of the taxo box. This looks unusual to me. Is it done elsewhere?__DrChrissy (talk) 13:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Relations with humans
Crested macaques are threatened with extinction because they are eaten in Sulewesi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.191.77 (talk) 01:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Macaca (genus" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macaca_(genus&redirect=no Macaca (genus] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 04:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Macaque


text:
Walter Thomson

Walter Cunningham Thomson (December 21, 1895 – April 27, 1964) was a Canadian politician, lawyer and rancher in Ontario, Canada.

Walter Cunningham Thomson was born on December 21, 1895 in Hastings, Ontario, the son of Reverend David Anderson Thomson and Janet née MacMillan.

On February 29, 1916, he enlisted into the army and was posted to the 93rd Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force, as a Lieutenant.

In 1923 he graduated from Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto, Ontario as a solicitor. On June 25, 1924, he married Greeta Brophy Whitehead in Toronto.

In 1930 they settled on a dairy farm near Pickering, Ontario, where he opened a law practice in 1935.

In 1944 he was appointed as Ontario Solicitor for the Veteran’s Land Act.

Thomson first ran for the leadership of the Ontario Liberal Party in 1943 but came in fourth place losing to Harry Nixon. He was elected to the House of Commons of Canada in the 1949 federal election.

In 1951, he left federal politics and ran again for the leadership of the Ontario Liberal Party and won, defeating social reformer Harry Cassidy. In the 1951 Ontario provincial election, he failed to win election to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and the Liberals lost six of the 13 seats they had previously held. He remained leader of the party for another three years due to its state of disorganization. He resigned as leader on May 31, 1954, and was replaced by Farquhar Oliver.

On April 27, 1963, he died of a heart attack, whilst he was being treated at a Toronto hospital. Thomson was buried at the Erskine Cemetery in Dunbarton, Ontario.

title: Walter Thomson


text:
Military Cross

The Military Cross (MC) is the third-level (second-level until 1993) military decoration awarded to officers and (since 1993) other ranks of the British Armed Forces, and formerly awarded to officers of other Commonwealth countries.

The MC is granted in recognition of "an act or acts of exemplary gallantry during active operations against the enemy on land" to all members of the British Armed Forces of any rank. In 1979, Queen Elizabeth II approved a proposal that a number of awards, including the Military Cross, could be recommended posthumously.

History
The award was created on 28 December 1914 for commissioned officers of the substantive rank of captain or below and for warrant officers. The first 98 awards were gazetted on 1 January 1915, to 71 officers, and 27 warrant officers. Although posthumous recommendations for the Military Cross were unavailable until 1979, the first awards included seven posthumous awards, with the word 'deceased' after the name of the recipient, from recommendations that had been raised before the recipients died of wounds or died from other causes.

Awards are announced in The London Gazette, apart from most honorary awards to allied forces in keeping with the usual practice not to gazette awards to foreigners.

From August 1916, recipients of the Cross were entitled to use the post-nominal letters MC, and bars could be awarded for further acts of gallantry meriting the award, with a silver rosette worn on the ribbon when worn alone to denote the award of each bar.

From September 1916, members of the Royal Naval Division, who served alongside the Army on the Western Front, were made eligible for military decorations, including the Military Cross, for the war's duration. Naval officers serving with the division received 140 MCs and eight second award bars.

In June 1917, eligibility was extended to temporary majors, not above the substantive rank of captain. Substantive majors were made eligible in 1953.

In 1931, the award was extended to equivalent ranks in the Royal Air Force for actions on the ground.

After the Second World War, most Commonwealth countries created their own honours system and no longer recommended British awards. The last Military Cross awards for the Canadian Army were for Korea. The last four Australian Army Military Cross awards were promulgated in The London Gazette on 1 September 1972 for Vietnam as was the last New Zealand Army Military Cross award, which was promulgated on 25 September 1970. Canada, Australia and New Zealand have now created their own gallantry awards under their own honours systems.

Since the 1993 review of the honours system, as part of the drive to remove distinctions of rank in awards for bravery the Military Medal, formerly the third-level decoration for other ranks, was discontinued. The MC is now the third-level award for all ranks of the British Armed Forces for "exemplary gallantry" on land, not to the standard required to receive the Victoria Cross (for "the most conspicuous bravery") or the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross.

Description
The Military Cross was designed by Henry Farnham Burke, while its ribbon was created by Victoria Ponsonby, Baroness Sysonby.

In the Medal Yearbook 2015 it is described as follows:
 * 46 mm maximum height, 44 mm maximum width.
 * Ornamental silver cross with straight arms terminating in broad finials, suspended from a plain suspension bar.
 * Obverse decorated with imperial crowns, with the Royal Cypher in centre.
 * Reverse is plain. From 1938 until 1957 the year of award was engraved on lower limb of cross, and since 1984 it has been awarded named to the recipient.
 * The ribbon width is 32 mm and consists of three equal vertical moire stripes of white, purple, and white.
 * Ribbon bar denoting a further award is plain silver, with a crown in the centre.

Numbers awarded
Since 1914, over 52,000 Military Crosses and 3,717 bars have been awarded. The dates below reflect the relevant London Gazette entries:

In addition, approximately 375 MCs have been awarded since 1979, including awards for Northern Ireland, the Falklands, and the wars in the Persian Gulf, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

The above table includes awards to the Dominions:
 * In all, 3,727 Military Crosses have been awarded to those serving with Canadian forces, including 324 first bars and 18 second bars.
 * A total of 2,930 were awarded to Australians, in addition to 188 first bars and four second bars. Of these, 2,403 MCs, 170 first Bars and four second Bars were for World War I.
 * Over 500 MCs were awarded to New Zealanders during World War I and over 250 in World War II. The most recent awards were for service in Vietnam.
 * The honorary MC awards were made to servicemen from fifteen Allied countries in World War I, and nine in World War II.

Notable awards

 * During World War I, Acting Captain Francis Wallington of the Royal Field Artillery was the first person to be awarded the MC and three bars when he was invested with his third bar on 10 July 1918 (gazetted 13 September 1918: he had obtained the first three awards as a second lieutenant). Three other officers were subsequently awarded a third bar, Percy Bentley, Humphrey Arthur Gilkes and Charles Gordon Timms, all of whose awards appeared in a supplement to the London Gazette on 31 January 1919.
 * For their key roles during World War I, the cities of Verdun and Ypres were awarded the Military Cross, in September 1916 and February 1920 respectively. In May 1920, Field Marshal French presented the decoration to Ypres in a special ceremony in the city.
 * During World War II Captain Sam Manekshaw, Indian Army (who eventually rose to the rank of Field Marshal), was leading a counter-offensive operation against the invading Japanese Army in Burma. During the course of the offensive, he was hit by a burst of machine-gun fire and severely wounded in the stomach. Major General D.T. Cowan spotted Manekshaw holding on to life and was aware of his valour in face of stiff resistance from the Japanese. Fearing the worst, Cowan quickly pinned his own Military Cross ribbon on to Manekshaw saying, "A dead person cannot be awarded a Military Cross."
 * The first posthumous Military Cross was that awarded to Captain Herbert Westmacott, Grenadier Guards for gallantry in Northern Ireland during the period 1 February 1980 to 30 April 1980.
 * The first woman to be awarded the Military Cross was Private Michelle Norris of the Royal Army Medical Corps, while attached to The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment for her actions in Iraq on 11 June 2006. Norris was awarded her medal personally by Queen Elizabeth II on 21 March 2007.
 * Able Seaman Kate Nesbitt, second woman, first in the Royal Navy, for acts in Afghanistan in March 2009 as a Medical Assistant attached to 1 RIFLES, 3 Commando Brigade.
 * Sergeant Michael Lockett, awarded the MC in 2008, was killed in action in 2009 in Afghanistan. He was the first holder of the MC to be killed in action since World War II.

title: Military Cross


text: User talk:80.88.34.52

title: User talk:80.88.34.52


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