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User talk:Grant65/Archive Football

Re: Your last edit to football.

 * Public schools were not purely for the upper classes. Rugby for example (this may be true for other schools) had a scheme to send local boys (known as foundationers) through a kind of grant scheme. Indeed William Webb Ellis himelf was a foundationer. Generally the public schools were for those that could afford to send their children, and in some cases this meant that in order to send their child to school a family lived in penury.

 * Nevertheless I think "upper classes" is techically more accurate than saying "privileged classes".
 * No 'upper classes' means the landed gentry, and although many landed gentry sent their sons to public school many did not, they were tutored at home. The intake in the public schools consisted many were were not upper class, and went into buisiness after school. (The upper classes do not involve themselves in 'trade') Mintguy (T) 18:24, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * "The apocryphal tale of William Webb Ellis handling the ball is dated 1823, but there is no certainty that this actually happened, or that handling was not allowed at Rugby School before that time." Well there are two problems with this. First apocryphal means there is no certainty that it happened, so the first part is a tautology, whilst the second part makes no sense. The rules in public schools were fluid (this is such a fundamental point to ALL football games before the FA). I draw you attention to which has an interesting analysis of the myth.

 * I don't have a problem with what you're saying, I merely moved the passage to a place where I thought it made more sense.
 * Sure but you also added the qualifications mentioned above.
 * "Apocryphal tale" was not my phrase. Considering the content of the link you provided, perhaps Webb Ellis deserves more respect.
 * No, it was mine, but you added the second and third clauses. I don't understand how you draw this conclusion about Webb Ellis. It certainly isn't the conclusion found on that site.

 * The Sheffield rules. The Cambridge rules and rules adopted by the FA in 1863 allowed charging (it's not explicit in the FA rules but it's not disallowed, the November draft ,which includign the hackign rule, was more explict on this issue), it is not particularly significant that the Sheffield Rules also had this. Indeed in modern association football you can still make a fair shoulder charge. We know for certain the by 1866 Sheffield had an offside rule. There may be evidence that I'm not aware of that they used an offside rule earlier. This needs more investigation, but I'm of the opinion that this aberration of the lack of offside is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, as these rules were only used in the Sheffield area and for a period of less than 9 years. In all, this paragraph needs to clarify the fact that by 1866 the only significant difference between Sheffield's rules and the FA rules was that the FA had a 3 man offside rule and that Sheffield had a one man rule. It should also say that by 1878 Sheffield were using FA rules.

 * Why should it say these things, unless one wants to demonstrate the obvious, that the FA game eventually ruled supreme in England? To me the hisorical significanace of the Sheffield Rules of 1857 is that they were different.
 * Different and followed by few and not for long, this is my point.

 * On the other side of the world, Australian Rules Football was first devised at Melbourne during 1858. I'm really unhappy with this phrase. There is no evidence that any game played before the May 1859 rules were drawn up, bore any resemblance to Aussie rules. Indeed the evidence suggests that it almost certainly didn't. The goals in the Richmond Paddock game were a mile apart. This sounds more like mob-football to me. As I pointed out on the talk:football page I'm of the opinion this doesn't mark any kind of watershed. The only real significance is that Tom Wills was involved. I would be interested if you could find out more information on a particular fact though. Wills wrote to Bells Life magazine in August 1858 suggesting the formation of football clubs. What precisely did he have to say?

 * No, the goals were a mile apart in the red herring game between Melbourne Grammar and Scotch College a week later. While no one knows what they did in the Richmond Paddock, Wills was clearly the driving force behind Australian Rules, wherever he got his ideas from. His letter to Bell's Life doesn't shed any light on his ideas about the rules. I'm not hung up on the wording here, as long as it makes clear that Wills started working on his game in 1858 and the first official rules were written in 1859.
 * I'm obviously confusing two matches here.

 * There were six meetings of the FA in all. Your changes make it sound like there were six meetings after the initial meeting. The Cambridge Rules suddenly appeared out of the blue at the fourth meeting (the minutes are in the History of the FA book and make interesting reading), thus "produced" seemed an appropriate verb to use.
 * I'm fine with that. As long as it's clear, which is what I was I aiming at.

 * There's no reference to a "touchdown" in the FA rules. See rule 7 below. Notice that rule 4 refers to knocking on and that there is no rule specifically banning touching the ball with the hands. BTW I've taken this from History of the Football Association (1951). The rules appear to have been incorrectly transcribed on a number of websites.

 * Regardless of the exact wording of the rules, the term "touch-down" was clearly in widespread use at the time (see e.g. ) in relation to this exact kind of play. The soccer historians use it and they had no reason to drag the term in from Rugby or American football. So why not use it? Grant65 17:44, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * The Cambridge rules say "touched-down", the FA rules do not. The rule says that the player has to touch the ball beyond the goal line in some way. It's not clear whether they mean hand or foot or either. I think either but perhaps I am wrong. The word touchdown implies, and conjoures up an image of American football or rugby which may not neccesarily be how it was. Mintguy (T) 18:24, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've saved the 1863 FA Rules on my PC and deleted them here, as we weren't disagreeing on their content, merely their interpretation.

"Upper classes". I'm not convinced that in contemporary usage it means "landed gentry". I think you have to bear in mind non-British usage here; since the settler colonies had some large landowners but did not have a landed gentry per se, a term like "upper classes" would be understood in the US or Australia, in local terms, i.e. as meaning the haute bourgeoisie.

The first FA meetings. I don't think it's right for the the text to say: "The decision had to be made whether to favour a handling game or a kicking game." No such decision had to be made. They were coming up a compromise of different games, some "kicking" and some "handling", and the result was a game which was more kicking but still included elements of the handling game.

Webb Ellis. With the benefit of a few hours sleep, I think you're essentially right about this.

Charging. A "fair shoulder charge" is not the same as charging, which implies significant contact. As you say, this was not banned by the 1863 rules, which suggests to me that soccer was initially more of a contact sport. (In fact, a few years ago reckless charging and contact, without a clear intent to get the ball, was banned in Aussie Rules and anyone found guilty is suspended and fined.) I think it needs to be mentioned in the par on the Cambridge rules as well.

Sheffield's offside rule. If you can find out more about this and include it, that would be great. I think a full, succint and precise discussion of the Sheffield rules, and their demise, is important to the Football page.

Wills/1858. I think the fact that the Melbourne F.C. rules of 1859 appear to have been arrived at in one meeting, in the middle of the 1859 football season (probably March-September) suggests that either the others involved acceded to a code that Wills had already devised and/or they formalised rules that were already in use. Given Wills' central role, I think his efforts in 1858 need to be dealt with, if only because they are invariably mentioned in other accounts of the development of Aussie Rules.

Touch-down. As you say, this is a part of the Cambridge rules, so it should be mentioned there at least. I tend to think as well that the idea of "touching" with the foot is nonsense, as this suggests dribbling the ball over the end line. It seems to me that there was an unavoidable similarity, if only in this aspect of the early FA game, to rugby and American football.

In general, I'm uncomfortable about undertones on the page at present that the eventual form and rise of soccer were inevitable, when they weren't. If the FA had been formed at an earlier or later date, soccer may have been a quite different game. Grant65 04:21, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Handling does not imply no kicking, similarly - kicking does not imply no handling. These terms are describing whether or not you can run whilst carrying the ball. "Carrying" was favoured by Rugby school and a few others but not by the majority of clubs represented at the first FA meetings.

Dribbling the ball over the goal line - It seems to me this is precisely what the laws allow. Kick the ball over the line and touch once it is over that line or dribble the ball over the goal line and you got a free kick some yards out but you weren't allowed to kick directly at the goal. Once the clubs that favoured the rugby rules had left the association the FA decided to scrap this concept altogether. The 1869 revision says "When the ball is kicked behind the goal-line it must be kicked off by the side behind whose goal it went within six yards from the limit of their goal. The side who thus kick the ball is entitled to a fair kick-off in whatever way they please without any obstruction – the side opposite not being able to approach within six yards of the ball." – Note that you could kick the ball behind your own goal line to get such a free kick.
 * Looking at the 1863 rules again I realise that I misread the rule. The after touching the ball behind the opponents goal line the free kick MUST be at the goal. I was confused because as far as I was ware a direct free kick didn't become part of the game until much later. Mintguy (T) 12:01, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Charging - Obviously a fair shoulder charge as it is interpreted in the modern game is the result of the watering down of the rules regarding charging. Football was a very much more physical game in the early games. Charging from behind was frowned upon though and various revisions to the FA rules in the late 19th century refer to charging from behind. The 1905 revision is very clear on charging though. Rule 9 says Charging is permissible but it must not be violent or dangerous. - So my point is that though the Sheffield Rules allowed charging, it is not particularly significant because the FA rules also allowed charging.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. To imply that everybody who attended public school was upper class is frankly ludicrous. You cannot possibly say that William Webb Ellis, Thomas Hughes, A. A. Milne, Stanley Baldwin or even your Tom Wills (born of convict stock) were upper class. They were part of the emerging middle classes. I was using the term privileged classes to refer to those other than the working class. Perhaps the whole phrase should be changed.
 * I think it should be changed, for two reasons: (1) To most readers, around the world, the term "privileged class", is virtually indishinguishable from "upper class". (2) Although the public schools handed out some scholarships, they were intended mainly for sons of the aristocracy and the wealthy, and those classes would have made up an overwhelming majority of the students. Given the rate of illiteracy at the time, there would have been few, if any, genuinely working class boys among them. And no doubt there were were some ex-public school boys who did not do well after they left school, but the intention of sending them to public schools was to turn them into members of the elite, wasn't it? (BTW, being of "convict stock" was not unusual in Australia before the goldrushes of 1851. A majority of the white population probably were children or grandchildren, as in Wills' case, of convicts, although they certainly didn't advertise the fact. In the unusual conditions of the early 19th Century, convicts could do very well for themselves and Wills was a member of the local elite, the "squatter" class. Grant65 04:30, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If the tone of the article is suggesting that Association Football in its current form was inevitable from the first meeting of the FA, then I agree this is wrong. The first draft of the FA laws including running with the ball and hacking, they were printed up and published as draft rules after the third meeting. At the fourth meeting, the Cambridge rules were brought to the table and a motion was proposed that the Cambridge rules (with no reference to carrying or hacking) be adopted with minor modification. Blackheath objected but the motion was carried by the majority. :Mintguy (T) 11:54, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(I thought I'd posted this here as well, so I've copied it from the Aussie Rules talk page, with Mintguy's last post there as well.)

 * I just had another look at Blainey's A Game of Our Own (1990; there is a 2003 edition, which I haven't seen yet), and Rob Hess & Bob Stewart's More Than A Game (1998). The latter book provides a few more details: they say that "a rugby ball" was used in the experimental game on July 31, 1858; that people of various backgrounds were involved, and; that rules were supposed to have been formulated afterwards, although these have not survived.

 * Hess & Stewart barely mention the Melbourne Grammar v. Scotch College match on August 7. Blainey is a prolific promoter of that game (cynics might say because of his own background), but he doesn't discuss the rules either. (However, it is known that Wills did umpire that game.)

 * Re. the other drafters of the 1859 rules, Hess & Stewart say that, like Wills, Hammersley and Thompson were ex-Cambridge University, and Smith was Irish and had attended Trinity College in Dublin. (There are some similarities between the Cambridge rules and Aussie rules, see Football#The Establishment of Modern Codes of Football.) Hess & Stewart say Harrison was not involved. They also cite a letter to a Melbourne newspaper in 1864, suggesting that the English Football Association rules of 1863 had been by influenced by the Melbourne FC rules! Grant65 10:28, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Grant. You've just reminded me of something with that last sentence. Some time ago I tried to find out about early proponents of Association football in Australia but I found virtually no information about this. I did find out that early bodies subscribing to the FA rules included the Southern British Football Association in New South Wales, the Anglo-Australian Football Association in Victoria and the British Football Associations of Queensland, South Australia and Tasmania. But I couldn't find any dates relating to the establishment and/or demise of these organisations. Mintguy (T) 10:56, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know at the moment. If it's not on the web, I can't help until I get to the library again, which may be a while.

BTW: while looking up Thomas Smith of Melbourne FC, I discovered that a Dublin University (i.e. Trinity College) FC was founded in 1854, which makes it older than Sheffield FC.

 * If that is correct it is significant, but the point about Sheffield is that it wasn't connected to a University or School. Cambridge had already been esablished remember.

And another significant point is that DUFC also appears to have been playing a rugby-type game from an early stage (a new book by Trevor West (2003) Dublin University Football Club, 1854–2004: 150 years of Trinity Rugby may be useful on this point).

So there was significant expertise in the Rugby and Cambridge games among the authors of Melbourne's 1859 rules, but this still doesn't shed light on the mysterious origins of the offside rule (another striking similarity to Gaelic, i.e. the need to bounce the ball while running, did not appear in the rules until 1866).

 * It is possible, but pure speculation, that some returnees from Australia to Ireland (of which I believe there were not an insignificant number) may have had some influence on the Irish game.

Actually, the Rugby School game appears to have been spreading long before there was an RFU, if you consider the case of the short-lived Guy's Hospital club (founded 1843), and references to Rugby rules being played at Oxford. So maybe the Football page is not doing justice to the Rugby School game at the moment(?) Grant65 13:13, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're right. The thing about writing articles for Wikipedia is all approach it from our own perspective, with our own prejudices. It's only with you coming on the scene and being prepared to argue the toss over the accuracy and wording that has re-ignited my interest in the subject. Mintguy (T)

The Trinity College team was founded by RH Scott a former pupil of Rugby. Mintguy (T) 15:51, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've found various references to written rules for various public schools including Rugby (1845) and Eton (1847) (several sites even suggest Eton (1815) but I think that is a confusion arisen from Wellington's statement about the playing fields of Eton), and others with unspecified dates some even quote what these rules said - (example), but nowhere have I been able to find these rules listed as they were written. Mintguy (T) 15:58, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I found a bit on Aussie soccer history. You have to remember the distance between the various colonial capitals meant that separate development took place in each of the six colonies, and sometimes of a regional basis (e.g. the Newcastle & District and Illawarra championships, presumably among British coal miners in those areas.) New South Wales seems to have had the first game and association, just ahead of Victoria.
 * "It's fair to assume that people were kicking a round ball on the Australian goldfields in the 1850s. However that was also when rugby was catching on in the northern colonies and Australian Rules was invented in the south. Association football was formalised in England in 1863, but by the time the first recorded soccer match in Australia was played in Sydney in 1880 (between the Wanderers and the Ring's [I think this should be King's] School), the jig was up. Successive waves of European migrants brought on-field finesse to the traditionally roughhouse British form of soccer, but they also ingrained it as a minority sport in the Anglo Australian sporting culture. Even by the first interstate ["intercolonial", technically] match between Victoria and NSW in 1883, the southern media compared it unfavourably to Aussie Rules." (That page has lots of links which I haven't investigated. See also .)

New South Wales federation founded 1882 as South British Football Soccer Association. Victoria federation founded 1884 as Anglo-Australian Football Association. Queensland federation founded 1889 as Queensland British Football Association. Western Australian Soccer Football Association from 1896. South Australia Federation founded 1902 as South Australian British Football Association. Tasmanian Football Association probably 1912.,, and

The first champion clubs in each competition appear to have been:
 * Victoria 1884 Richmond
 * Sydney (Badge Series) 1885 Caledonians
 * Sydney (Rainsford Trophy) 1885 Granville
 * Newcastle and District(NSW) 1886 Minmi Rangers
 * Illawarra (NSW) 1880s? ? ?
 * Queensland 1893 Rosebank
 * WA 1896 Fremantle Wanderers
 * SA 1903 South Adelaide
 * Tasmania 1912 St. George

(I'm not sure if any of these clubs still survive.) Grant65 04:26, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The oldest surviving club appears to be Balgownie Rangers (1883), the fifth actually formed. It now competes in the regional Illawarra Premier League.

There is also an interesting article on the development of soccer clubs in NSW, local rules and the style of play.

And a uni lecture outline.

By the way, how do I include the "talk" link?

Grant65 05:27, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Go to your preferences and change your sig. For you the sig will automatically put "" at the beginning and "" at the end. You put in the middle bit. I put "Mintguy]] (T)" in mine to get my talk page under (T), but most people who use this feature put "talk" or something else instead of T. [[User:Mintguy|Mintguy (T) 09:17, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't find anything about the foundation of the Cambridge club, do you know anything about this? Should we assume that it was formed at the same time as the rules? Were there earlier university football clubs? Grant65 (Talk)]] 10:39, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

It's still not coming up properly. Grant65 (Talk) 10:47, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Now? Grant65 (Talk) 11:09, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

One last try. Grant65 (Talk) 11:32, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Lol... replace whatever you've got with this...

 * Grant65]][[User talk: Grant65|(Talk)

Thring and his pal de Winton formed a club with old Etonians at Cambridge in 1846, but they apparently played few games. More interest in the sport was achieved in 1848 as we know. Re: Other University teams... I don't know. I read somewhere that Oxford banned football and later on Rugby became the more popular sport there. Also remember that in the 19th century university education was open to very few. The third university in England was UCL which was only given its charter in 1836. BTW Guy's Hospital is a teaching hospital, so perhaps that counts as a university in this context. The club was formed by students. It think it's impossible to say what kind of game those students played if carrying the ball had only become accepted a few years before at Rugby. I'm of the opinion that the rules at these schools would have changed from day to day. Mintguy (T)

Thanks for the tech tip. I think one could argue that university clubs are "independent" in a way in which school teams are not, and the Melbourne University Football Club was in the Victorian Football League in 1908-15 (it performed poorly because of its limited "talent base"). However, clubs like Sheffield and Melbourne are obviously different and need to be recognised as such.

I don't see that the Guy's club was any different, in principle, to a team attached to a particular factory or other workplace, as some semi-professional clubs in various codes still are. While it would have been amateur, any club formed at that time would have been.

Also, the relationship between Rugby School and the Guy's club appears to be so definite that, regardless of the vagaries of the rules at the time, it is relevant to relate the club to the Rugby tradition. Grant65(Talk) 01:47, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

Don't forget that the people who drew up the Cambridge rules included old Rugbeians. The games people played and called rugby football were still uncodified and varied considerably. I recently remembered that I've got a book called The Code Wars about this subject, which has some useful info to add about the early rivalry of these games, but I don't really have to to add it at the moment, maybe the weekend. Some clubs played rugby and association rules on alternative weeks. It's interesting to see that after professionalism came into the association game a number of clubs that had formerly been usings rugby rules switched to the association game because they found the they got larger attendences for games where the quality of play was of ahigh standard; but there are also instances of the reverse happening when local interest for the rugby game was stronger than for association football. Mintguy (T) 11:36, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I take the point about clubs switching codes rapidly. (Individuals still do it: the cricketer Geoff Lawson claimed that as a teenager in southern new South Wales, he played Aussie Rules, Rugby League and Union every weekend!) By the same token don't forget that Cambridge rules were a new game altogether, a compromise between the rules of several schools, whereas only Rugby seems to be mentioned in connection with Guy's. BTW in realtion to the football (soccer)page; I did a fair bit of digging on the early US game and a lot of the dates, names and some historical details were wrong. See what you think of my changes. Grant65 (Talk) 03:31, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

I think the game between Louth and Meath in 1712 needs some re-wording; my impression is that no one knows what the rules were like, and the comparison with "unruly English games" may tread on Irish toes.

The description of the classes who attended public schools is better now, although it strikes me as a little wordy. What if it just said "upper and middle class"?

Overall though, I think Football is becoming an exemplary page. Grant65 (Talk) 04:16, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

Re: Louth-Meath, yeah I reworded that many times and am still not happy with it. I want to try to get across that the parish games played in Ireland were similar to the games played in England, i.e. unlimited players, without boundaries played through the streets and towns and very much rough-house type games. Davin (who wrote the GAA Gaelic Football rules) was apparently appalled by the level of violence that the uncoded form of football included. BTW My parents are Irish, there's no intended anti-Irish sentiment in my writings, I'm trying to be fair. You frquently get Irish people bragging that Irish football is older than "soccer", without really understanding what was going on with football at the time. I agree BTW about the article really looking up. I liked your most recent additions. Someone has suggested to me that it become a featured article, but it would be nice to get some good pictures in the article first. Mintguy (T)

title: User talk:Grant65/Archive Football


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MTV Movie & TV Awards

The MTV Movie & TV Awards is a film and television awards show presented annually on MTV. It began as the MTV Movie Awards in 1992, when its first edition was held, and adopted its current name in 2017, beginning with its 26th edition.

The awards ceremony has traditionally been tied to the start of the summer blockbuster season for the film industry, and since the launch of the television awards, the opening of that industry's awards season. The nominees are decided by producers and executives at MTV. The winners are then decided by the general public. Presently, voting is done only through an official MTV Movie & TV Awards voting website. Winners are presented with the "Golden Popcorn" statue made by New-York-firm Society Awards.

Production process
For much of its history, the ceremony was recorded for later broadcast, unlike the MTV Video Music Awards, which are usually live, but not live-to-tape, where the ceremony occurred in chronological order with appropriate edits. This meant that the ceremony was recorded out of order with the host segments recorded all at the start, followed by the musical performances and then award presentations, where those artists and actors nominated could choose to stay only for their award category and then depart after, with a seat filler filling their seat before or afterwards. After 2006, when Survivor producer Mark Burnett (who took over duties from Joel Gallen for the 2007 awards) took over production duties, it began to be broadcast live most years, though since 2017, it has been recorded live-to-tape, with a one or two-day delay before airing.

Since 2007, polls for several awards have been voted on through MTV's web and social media presences.

Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the 2020 awards were cancelled. Internally, the network had discussed a permanent move of the ceremony to December, which would place it in the early portion of awards season before the Golden Globe Awards. Instead, MTV aired a Vanessa Hudgens-hosted clip show, MTV Movie & TV Awards: Greatest of All Time, on December 6, 2020, which featured highlights from past ceremonies and highlighted notable moments from film and television since the 1980s.

The network stated that it aimed to hold a larger, weekend-long ceremony in 2021. On March 11, 2021, MTV announced that the 2021 MTV Movie & TV Awards would be held on May 16 and 17, 2021, with the first night focusing on films and scripted television, and a new, second night (MTV Movie & TV Awards: Unscripted) focusing exclusively on awards in reality television. The 2022 ceremony maintained the split format, but with both segments airing back-to-back on a single night. The 2023 ceremony was originally to be hosted by Drew Barrymore, but Barrymore and other planned guests dropped out in solidarity with the 2023 Writers Guild of America strike. As a result, the in-person ceremony was cancelled and replaced by a pre-recorded virtual ceremony with no host. In May 2024, MTV cancelled the 2024 edition, stating that the event was being retooled for 2025.

Records
Films that won Best Movie at the MTV Movie & TV Awards and Best Picture at the Academy Awards
 * 1998: Titanic
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Since 1993, scenes are spoofed, mostly from that year's most popular films, although television shows and older movies have also been chosen. This may include sound and video montages, replacing some of the original cast with other actors (commonly, the hosts of each year's show) generally mocking the scenes of that film. The diversity of the spoofs can vary greatly, from one dialogue (such as in 2005) to several long scenes, including fighting and action sequences (2003).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: MTV Movie & TV Awards


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User:Jaymer

Hi, I'm Jaymer, from San Antonio, Tx.

Now living in Tampa (Brandon) FL.

visit http://www.Jaymer.com for more info

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Haroon al Rasheed

Haroon Al Rashid (Urdu:پیر ہارون الرشید) (born 1935) is the leader of the Nisbat-e-Rasooli Sufi order in Mohra Sharif, Pakistan, and is known by the honorific Pir. He gives Islamic sermons every Friday (in Mohra Sharif) and Saturday (in Islamabad). He preaches the philosophy of Nisbat-e-Rasooli.

Al-Rashid has performed the Hajj pilgrimage every year since 1960, and has over six million followers around the world.

He has two sons, Alhaj Pir Dr. Gohar Nazir and Shahzada Jamal Nazir, and two daughters. Pir Gohar Nazir is the current leader or the gadi nasheen of Mohra Sharif. He has two sons, Deedawar Nazir and Murad Nazir, who are currently studying. Pir Gohar Nazir is a doctor by education and profession. He built a free hospital in Mohra Sharif, where he sees patients daily. He wrote his first book "Arzo e Natamam" when he was in eighth grade in Aitchison College Lahore. After that he wrote two more books: Kayal Rang and Rang e Ja'n. Both are in Urdu and contain Sufi Kalam (Naats) and gazals as well.

Shahzada Jamal Nazir is a former Federal Minister in the interim 2013 Cabinet. He was also a Member National Commission on Minorities, and Advisor with Minister of State status for the Government of Pakistan on National Regulations and Services. He has a J.D. (Juris Doctor) and LL.M. from the Strum College of Law, University of Denver, USA.

Death of Pir Haroon ur Rashid
The Sajjada Nasheen Mohra Sharif Pir Haroonur Rashid passed away due to illness on Sunday. He was 86. His funeral was offered at Mohra Sharif, Murree.

title: Haroon al Rasheed


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User talk:Alister

Hello Alister, welcome to Wikipedia.

You might find these links helpful: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too.

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump, or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!
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Again, welcome! Chris Roy 03:49, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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SVG Help!
Hi, did you make this svg Image:Standard video res.svg? I want to da a worldmap displaying where 50hz and 60hz are used for hdtv and I found a world map in svg in the commons, which I want to edit, BUT I am a newbie in svg, so I would like to get some help by you. Could you please tell me how to make an own pattern, because I need a striped area for europe, because there is 50 AND 60hz allowed for the broadcasts and for the dispalys, in contrast to the us with 60hz and austrailai with 50hz. So could you please help me? greets, --Andreas -horn- Hornig 09:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * hi ho and thx for your reply. first of all, we can stay here for discussion, so we do not have to jump back and forth between our discussion sites.
 * I have inkscape here, but I can not find a patern for stripes like I need it, nor a tutorial how to create my own patern. I want to use a blue and red patern for the European area, because here two framerates can be used, instead of the rest of the world. when you woul dgive me a direct hind or a website with a good tutorial for newbies, that would be so great!
 * thx for the compliment about the diagrams, I will transfer them in svg as far as I know to clour the backgrounds in a way, it looks right. but first I hwvae to learn, how to coonnect several line in one node, to let it apeas, as one body. I have some more unrelase versions here (leter- and pillarboxed, but this are even more difficult, because of the shades of different colours.
 * so I definitly need your guidance ;). greets, --Andreas -horn- Hornig 18:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know of any Inkscape tutorials other than the one that comes with Inkscape. I recommend that you try that -- from the menu, click on Help, then Tutorials, and you should see a sub-menu of tutorial topics to choose from.  It maybe best to post the world map and maybe a mockup of the patterns you would like in png or gif format somewhere.  Then from there I may give you an idea on how to solve your problem.  okay. laterz.  --Alister 18:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Standard_video_res.svg modification please
Hi Alister. I was just reading the HDTV article and noticed the great SVG image you made for it. However, I'd really like to see 1366x768 added to it as pretty much every LCD HDTV I've seen as of today (42" and smaller) uses that resolution. What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.25.215.134 (talk) 18:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

title: User talk:Alister


text:
User talk:RivGuySC

Hello RivGuySC, welcome to Wikipedia.

You might find these links helpful: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too.

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump, or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!
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Again, welcome! Chris Roy 03:49, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good work on the car articles! I've been looking at what you've done; good stuff.

A minor point of Wikipedia style and convention: we tend to avoid links to external sites in the body of the article text, reserving them for an 'External Links' section at the end. Not a hard-and-fast rule, of course, because there are times one needs to. I removed a couple of links you added to Ford Thunderbird - the pointer to a page on the modern Thunderbird was a page in German, and if we need to refer to an external page about it, we can easily find a page in English. I also removed the link to speedycars because (for me, at least) it seemed to be all ads (including popups) and no content.

Thanks, —Morven 17:25, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Glad you liked the car stuff! Thanks for the advice. I just stumbled on Wickipedia recently and I'm still learning the rules.

RivGuySC

Yes, I love my Thunderbird. It's in the body shop right now; some idiot in a Tacoma backed into it in a parking lot, smashed the taillight area up annd stuff. Itching to get it back; there's nothing more fun to drive on the freeway at high speed. —Morven 07:42, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Was the Torino chassis also on the 77-79 Continental Mark V? Given that from '72 onwards, the T-bird and Mark were pretty much the same car but for trim and badging. —Morven 00:57, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know that the T-bird and Mark diverged again in '77. To my eyes the later-70s Mark looked smaller than the previous, but maybe that was just styling. My favorite Lincoln Mark is the III, though (of course, the Continental Mark II is excellent, but not a Lincoln). Built on the suicide-door T-Bird chassis, too. I saw one for sale about 6 months ago at the Garden Grove, CA Friday night cruise -- quiet and smooth as a Rolls-Royce despite the 460 under the hood.

I've had the bodywork fixed on my T-Bird but the body shop wasn't able to find the taillight assembly. Fortunately, I have contacts they don't -- the GlamorBirds (67-71) mailing list is very helpful. Everything is the same between the 67 and 68 tail assemblies but for the center chromed casting incorporating the lock cylinder and door -- on the 67, it has small winged birds at either end and THUNDERBIRD across the middle, while in 68 it had just a wide winged bird across the middle. The 68 T-Bird is one of the most incognito cars in existence; it does not have its manufacturer's name anywhere on the outside and has its model name only on tiny script on the rear quarter reflectors, where in most cases it wore off inside five years.

This may also kick my butt to get the sequentials working. They have a tendency not to on 67s and 68s; the sequencer is electro-mechanical, consisting of a motor turning cams that push spring-loaded arms down onto contacts (!). Over 30 years of wear later, of course, it doesn't work. There's someone selling redesigned electronic replacements for about $200, though. And then there are all the vacuum accessories to get working ... great fun! Vacuum power door locks -- what were they thinking ... —Morven 07:19, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You might be interested to know the Ford Thunderbird had optional high-level brake lights from 1968 on! See http://automotivemileposts.com/tbird1968optionalequipment.html for a picture. These definitely were available at least through '69 and maybe longer, but weren't popular. This would make the Toronado's use of them in '71 the second usage at least, unless you're talking about them being standard fitment (not sure of their status on the Toronado). —Morven 06:46, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I got your email successfully -- just getting unexpectedly busy at work. At least two of the guys on the GlamorBirds list (67-71 T-Birds) have the high level brake light option fitted to their cars. They are used as supplemental turn signals too -- coming on with the center of the three sequential lights. Quoting one owner:

 * The supplemental stop lamps did indeed make it to production. They were offered beginning in 1968, on all models. In 1969, only the Fordors offered them, then in 1970 they were offered on all models again. I'm not sure if they were installed on the 1971's, I've never seen one with them.

 * I have a '69 Fordor with them. To be honest, they're ugly. There is a relay in the luggage compartment that controls them. I usually leave it unplugged. They come on with the brake lights, and they flash in sequence with the center turn signal bulbs.

 * The only good thing I can say about them is they are very prominent. Since many of these Birds suffer from "dim taillight syndrome" they are good to have in that respect. At night, they are VERY blinding from behind. They are part of the interior molding and make the rear window narrower than it already is (especially on a Fordor!)

Sounds more of a good idea than execution, and they're one of the rarest options in the years they were offered. Another curious one was the rear light monitor on '68s, which used fiber-optics to embed a miniature version of the tail-lights into the rear package tray where it could be seen in the rear-view mirror. Thus, the driver could tell if his taillights and turnsignals were working correctly. —Morven 20:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

RivGuySC- I see you changed back the dates I edited in the "Lincoln Town Car" page. I am not old enough to have lived through most of the dates I changed, but my source was a book called "100 Years of Ford". Perhaps it has some errors, perhaps not. Do you have a source for the dates that you changed back? I was editing without a username, and represent all 3 I.P. address edits to the page in question.

Wrt Sedans; are the 'window frames' you refer to meaning non-moving part-of-the-door frames? Because my T-Bird windows have thin aluminum frames that roll down with the windows themselves; I have a suspicion that you are meaning the permanently-part-of-the-door variety? —Morven 01:03, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * You're right, I think; having searched the web and found quite a few 'pillared hardtops'. Just the pillarless variety was much more common, I think.  The T-Bird never gets called a pillared hardtop because, I think, Ford had their own terminology; 'fordor landau' was Ford's official designation.  I have to do landau and landau bar/landau iron/s-bar articles one of these days, about these 'fake convertibles' that one only sees these days as hearses and occasionally stretch limousines. —Morven 11:11, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction at Ford Torino. I was going by a book photo caption which it turns out is also wrong. —Morven 02:14, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, RivGuySC, for your kind comments about my Plymouth Valiant additions. The first Valiant site linked from the page has some interesting images of the car. It was a very nice evolution of the American design, though on a unique-for-Australia platform (not sure why they needed it with hindsight) and had all the swoopiness and coke-bottle lines of cars like the '71 Dodge Charger and Plymouth Sebring. (Basically: think Valiant and Dart with the Sebring curves.) I think the locals called it the coke bottle the 'hippie line'—not used generally, but only for the Valiant. I enjoyed the earlier contributions of yours that I've found and will be checking out your other pages (and helping where possible). Stombs 10:12, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

RivGuySC: I thought I'd mention a little bit of trivia that might be good for the Riviera page—let me know what you think. In 1999, with the Riv nearing the end of its run, GM bosses travelled to Australia to view the Holden Commodore Coupé prototype, which had been worked on by Holden guys in their spare time (and hid from the bosses). Earlier in the decade, the plan for the Australian Holden Commodore sedan (Cadillac Catera on steroids) to become the new Buick LeSabre (or a similarly sized model) had been scuttled by the unions, but one of these GM bigwigs floated the idea of taking the Coupé prototype—which was pretty near production, anyway, being on the existing sedan platform—and taking it to the US as a 2002 or 2003 Riviera. Nothing much came of that plan till Bob Lutz arrived. He saw the car, which had by then become the Holden Monaro, and felt it might be better as a Pontiac. That's how you guys got the new Goat, but it could have been the new Riv. IMO, the styling of the Monaro is closer to the '99 Riviera, but the idea of the Monaro is close to that of the '64 Goat: a six-cylinder sedan with the division's biggest V8 in it. (I don't care if it doesn't look like the '69 Judge!) Stombs 10:21, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the note, RivGuySC—I'm glad the above info was of interest and is useful. Stombs 04:27, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

Would you happen to know ...
... what year this Pontiac Catalina convertible is? Image:Pontiac Catalina convertible.jpg. Can't find one like it anywhere, and the owner was nowhere to be found when I took the picture. —Morven 08:00, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks! Put it up on the Pontiac Catalina page, now I can say what year it was.  I certainly like that year's styling; very exaggerated 'beak', and those almost blade-like light surrounds/fender tips ... lethal to pedestrians, no doubt, but certainly interesting-looking.  —Morven 06:56, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Image:Merkur.jpg
--Diberri | Talk 18:03, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Lipscomb
No, I don't know if it was different in summer school, i went to summer school closer to home. It seems like it might have been though to make it cheaper, but we had to be enrolled in 2 bible classes per semester so that there would be one every day. I guess it's possible also that there has been a change since you were there, I went from 96-98, but them changing that seems unlikely. My guess is that there were different rules for part time summer school. (seems like I remember it having to do with how many hours you were enrolled even in the main semesters, like maybe part-time students didn't have to do as much.) rhyax 05:06, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

GM 3800 engine
Thanks for the awesome edits on this page! I'm really pleased to have started a page on something I didn't know much about and then having it grow so nicely into something that's teaching me! --SFoskett 13:36, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

AMC Gremlin
Thanks for the complement. It's a 25-year-old picture of my first car.

Power
Hi RivGuySC,

Regarding your comment about power vs. horsepower, it is simply a case of the unit versus the abstract term. If I want to say something weighs more than something else, I say that it "is heavier", or it "has more weight", I don't say that it "has more kilograms" or "has more pounds". Likewise, to talk about power in the abstract, just "power" is correct. So if I am talking about a specific measurement, I might say that "such and such a car has 123 horsepower", but if I am comparing two cars, I would say that "this car has more power than that car."

Because the words "horsepower" and "power" are similar, some people will incorrectly use the unit "horsepower" to describe the abstract concept of power. Try using metric units and see how silly that is, e.g. "this car has more watts than that car."

Icd

G'day RivGuySC,

Not trying to be a smartass but I think your thinking is a little fuzzy. You wrote:

 * For one thing, engine power is commonly measured in both horsepower and torque, so just saying more power is not precise.

That is not actually correct, and you should visit the Wikipedia pages for power and torque to find out why. Power and torque are separate but related concepts. You are correct in saying that both of these are characteristics of engines, but the concepts of power and torque are different from the units we use to measure them, namely horsepower/watts and foot-pounds/newton-metres respectively. Even when talking about torque, you wouldn't say "this car has a lot of foot-pounds" so neither should you say "this car has a lot of horsepower".

Anyway, check the dictionary definitions of horsepower vs. power if you like. Horsepower is defined either as a unit, or a literal horse's power, that is it. Although many cases are one of convention, I don't think this is one of those cases. Horsepower has a definition, and to use is to describe the abstract concept of power is simply wrong.

Icd 05:50, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * I have to say it, Riv, but I gotta agree with Icd on this one. It's like the liter->L discussions I've been having elsewhere - if you're talking about the concept of power, you say power, but if you're talking about a specific metric, you use horsepower (or kW if you're Bobblewick!)  So as to the article in question, I'd say it "has more power", not "has more horsepower" - even though the latter is technically correct, the former is preferable since it's more general. --SFoskett 15:35, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Image:LaSalle1.jpg etc
Hi! Thanks for uploading Image:LaSalle1.jpg through Image:LaSalle7.jpg. I notice they currently don't have any image copyright tags. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much,   – Quadell (talk) (help)   16:39, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks for getting permission. Normally, people put copyright info in the image description page, not the talk page, so I didn't think to look there. Anyway, it's all good.   – Quadell (talk) (help)   18:27, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Ford Thunderbird
Hi from Adrian. Thanks for your Ford Thunderbird query. Because I'm in England and have no knowledge of USA cars whatsoever I can't comment on what the yellow car was. So, to be safe, and because the article does have other pics, I've removed the pic. Best Wishes - Adrian Pingstone 16:46, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!
My thoughts exactly... the more pictures, the better, especially since most common cars have no visual support. I'm all for text as well, but I'll get to that after updating pictures.

My keyboard has no tilde, so I keep forgetting. Diego440 15:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Tilde
Well, in Spanish only one letter has the tilde, and the keyboard does have that letter: Ñ and ñ

Nevertheless, the tilde by itself isn't used. In the button where your tilde is, we have the degree symbol: º, as in 15º; the numbered symbol: ª, as in 15ª (fifteenth, in Spanish): and the backwards slash "\". I'm sure I could find the tilde in the keyboard map, or through the alt menu, but I'd much rather click on the images at the end. We do have the other type of tildes, which are like the apostrophe (sp?): á é í ó ú, and capitalized, etc. Either way, a really long explanation for just a simple fact, eh?

Diego440 23:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Biscúter
I'm Ecelan from the Spanish Wikipedia. Thanks for apreciating the translation of the article Biscúter, it is a very good article that must be present in the Spanish Wikipedia. After all, it's a Spanish car. Btw, we have a couple of images you could use in your article too.

I see you are interested in cars. I'm completing the information about Spanish microcars. Most of the information comes from a website that allows us to use their texts. You'll find the link at the end of the page. The only problem is that we can't use the images because they don't know the license for most of them. If you happen to have some (with free license), please let me know. Cheers --84.161.57.198 08:11, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Coupe de Ville
Not sure about whether it's a de Ville or Fleetwood or even a Sixty Special coupe. I knew it was a rare car, but didn't get a look at the rear badge. I'll go back Monday and see what it is - it's for sale! --SFoskett 21:22, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Image:76Century.jpg
Burgundavia (✈ take a flight?) 16:49, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for tagging this image. Another key thing to remember is that you need to mention your source, in this case you. So I added "Created by User:RivGuySC" to the image page. If you have any further images that need to be tagged, I would love it if you could do so now. Burgundavia (✈ take a flight?) 02:57, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

Proposed project
Do you think that there would be merit in a "neighborhoods of Nashville" project? There are already articles on the major suburbs like Antioch, Bellevue, Donelson, Hermitage, and the like. This would be smaller but still significant ones like Inglewood, Joelton, Whites Creek, Belleshire, The Nations, and the like. I don't want to do it all myself, nor do I have interest in it languishing for months on end like Memphis's has (after several months, all but three or so in the main Memphis article are still red links. I'm running this past the most Nashville-knowledgable people, and your input would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!  Rlquall 03:42, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nashville sit-ins nominated
I've nominated Nashville sit-ins for the U.S. Southern Collaboration of the Week. If you think it's a worthy topic, stop by and vote for it. Thanks. Kaldari 02:06, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lincoln/Vote
Please look at the restructured choices on Talk:Lincoln/Vote and clarify your vote. Thanks! —Lowellian (talk) 08:38, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Grand Ville stub
Just made the Pontiac Grand Ville a and it needs help. Can you recommend anyone to look at it? Stude62 01:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing it. One more favor? Could you take a look at the Buick Century article.  I tried my best to work through the 1936-1958 text and would appreciate your input.  Thanks so much for helping me along.  Cars are my passion, but grammar my week spot. Stude62 04:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Important WikiProject Automobiles Discussion
Hello! As a WikiProject Automobiles member, I just thought you might want to input your opinions on an important discussion we're currently having about whether articles regarding similar vehicles should be merged into one or split by brand. If you would like to comment or read further, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles. Thank you in advance for your thoughts and feedback. Airline 23:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Image:LaSalle1.jpg
Source information sufficient for someone else to verify an image's copyright status should be placed on the image description page, not the talk page. Dragons flight 05:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging for Image:LaSalle2.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:LaSalle2.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

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 * Image use policy
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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see User talk:Carnildo/images. 10:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Hi, Thank you for your positive feedback. I really appreciate it. Thank you.  Signature brendel  04:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC) I just discovered there is a barnstar for kind users, so this one's for you:

Station wagon article, overhauled again
Could you take a look at the station wagon article. I've overhauled it again to bring some sense to it. I also shifted images around and added new ones as well. Stude62 15:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:1973 dodge charger se press photo.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:1973 dodge charger se press photo.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently specifies that the image can be used under a fair use license. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful.

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Marathon Motor Works Logo: Source?
That's a great graphic of the Marathon Motor Works logo. Is there a higher-resolution version anywhere? Where did it come from? I was about to settle down in Photoshop and extract out the bricks from my photo, but if this has already been done, or the logo was scanned from a better source, I'd love to just use that.

Wikiproject Automobiles Notification
Hi RivGuySC, you were on the list of members at WikiProject Automobiles and we are introducing a new way of listing members, as the old list was becoming too long. Our new method involves having all of our members in a category.

To add yourself to the category just add the userbox to your user page by putting   where you want the userbox. Alternatively if you don't like the userbox you can add   to your userpage.

If you no longer wish to be a member of the project, simply don't add the userbox or category, there's no pressure. Thanks for your time, James086Talk 04:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:LaSalle1.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:LaSalle1.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable under fair use (see our fair use policy).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you.  howcheng  {chat} 16:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This is also applicable for the rest of the LaSalle images: Image:LaSalle2.jpg, Image:LaSalle3.jpg, Image:LaSalle4.jpg, Image:LaSalle5.jpg, Image:LaSalle6.jpg, Image:LaSalle7.jpg. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Howcheng (talk • contribs) 16:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Non-free use disputed for Image:ChryslerImperialCrystalOrnament.jpg
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Wikimania in Atlanta!
Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 07:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chryslerimperialeaglecirca60s.jpg
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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it may be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 13:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Scott Klein (bodybuilder)
I have nominated Scott Klein (bodybuilder), an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Scott Klein (bodybuilder). Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Ecoleetage (talk) 01:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

COUPE DE VILLE SONG LIST
HELLO I DONT SUPPOSE YOU STILL HAVE THE LIST OF COUPE DE VILLE REFERENCES IN SONGS, I FOUND IT ON WILKIPEDIA AND WAS GOING TO WRITE THEM ALL DOWN WHEN I CAME BACK IT HAD BEEN DELETED, I TRIED LOOKING ON SONG LYRIC SITES AND THE ONLY ONE I CAN FIND IS THE NEIL DIAMOND SONG AND A BEASTIE BOYS SONG. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. I DONT HAVE AN ACCOUNT ON HERE BUT MY EMAIL IS. COUPEDEVILLEUK@HOTMAIL.COM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.23.21.100 (talk) 10:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:L&N logo.gif)
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File:AuthorsCar.jpg listed for deletion
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Nashville area?
There is some talk of a Nashville area meetup. Would love to have your participation! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

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WikiProject Vandy invite
Cake (talk) 15:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

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title: User talk:RivGuySC


text:
1992 MTV Movie Awards

The 1992 MTV Movie Awards was hosted by Dennis Miller.

Performers

 * En Vogue — "My Lovin' (You're Never Gonna Get It)"
 * Ugly Kid Joe — "Everything About You"
 * Arrested Development — "Tennessee"
 * Vince Neil — "You're Invited (But Your Friend Can't Come)"

Awards
Below are the list of nominations. Winners are listed first and highlighted in bold.

Best Movie
Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Backdraft
 * Boyz n the Hood
 * JFK
 * Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves

Best Male Performance
Arnold Schwarzenegger – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Kevin Costner – Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
 * Robert De Niro – Cape Fear
 * Val Kilmer – The Doors
 * Robin Williams - The Fisher King

Best Female Performance
Linda Hamilton – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Geena Davis – Thelma and Louise
 * Rebecca De Mornay – The Hand That Rocks the Cradle
 * Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio – Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
 * Julia Roberts – Dying Young

Most Desirable Male
Keanu Reeves – Point Break
 * Kevin Costner – Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
 * Christian Slater – Kuffs
 * Patrick Swayze – Point Break
 * Jean-Claude Van Damme – Double Impact

Most Desirable Female
Linda Hamilton – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Christina Applegate – Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead
 * Kim Basinger – Final Analysis
 * Tia Carrere – Wayne's World
 * Julia Roberts – Dying Young

Breakthrough Performance
Edward Furlong – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Anna Chlumsky – My Girl
 * Campbell Scott – Dying Young
 * Ice-T – New Jack City
 * Kimberly Williams – Father of the Bride

Best On-Screen Duo
Dana Carvey and Mike Myers – Wayne's World
 * Anna Chlumsky and Macaulay Culkin – My Girl
 * Kevin Costner and Morgan Freeman – Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
 * Geena Davis and Susan Sarandon – Thelma and Louise
 * Damon Wayans and Bruce Willis – The Last Boy Scout

Best Villain
Rebecca De Mornay – The Hand That Rocks the Cradle
 * Robert De Niro – Cape Fear
 * Robert Patrick – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Alan Rickman – Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
 * Wesley Snipes – New Jack City

Best Comedic Performance
Billy Crystal – City Slickers
 * Dana Carvey – Wayne's World
 * Steve Martin – Father of the Bride
 * Bill Murray – What About Bob?
 * Mike Myers – Wayne's World

Best Song from a Movie
Bryan Adams — "(Everything I Do) I Do It for You" (from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves)
 * MC Hammer — "Addams Groove" (from The Addams Family)
 * Color Me Badd — "I Wanna Sex You Up" (from New Jack City)
 * Eric Clapton — "Tears in Heaven" (from Rush)
 * Guns N' Roses — "You Could Be Mine" (from Terminator 2: Judgment Day)

Best Kiss
Anna Chlumsky and Macaulay Culkin – My Girl
 * Anjelica Huston and Raúl Juliá – The Addams Family
 * Annette Bening and Warren Beatty – Bugsy
 * Juliette Lewis and Robert De Niro – Cape Fear
 * Priscilla Presley and Leslie Nielsen – The Naked Gun 2½: The Smell of Fear

Best Action Sequence
L.A. Freeway Scene – Terminator 2: Judgment Day
 * Burning Building/Escape Through Old Tunnel – Backdraft
 * Roof Scene – The Hard Way
 * Helicopter Blades Sequence – The Last Boy Scout
 * Second Jump from the Plane – Point Break

Best New Filmmaker Award

 * John Singleton – Boyz n the Hood

Lifetime Achievement Award

 * Jason Voorhees – Friday the 13th series

title: 1992 MTV Movie Awards


text:
James Spearman Winter

Sir James Spearman Winter, (1 January 1845 – 6 October 1911) was a Newfoundland politician and Premier.

Life
Winter served in the Conservative government of Sir William Whiteway as Solicitor-General from 1882 to 1885 when he resigned along with a number of other Protestants as a result of sectarian riots at Harbour Grace. Winter was grand master of the Orange Order and intended to launch a new Protestant party but was sidelined when Sir Robert Thorburn formed the Reform Party on a Protestant Rights agenda. Winter served as Attorney General under Thorburn from 1885 to 1889 when the government was defeated and Winter lost his seat. Winter was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1893 but resigned to lead the Tory Party (which had emerged from the former Reform Party). Winter and his party won the 1897 election.

The Winter government faced criticism over the granting of railway contracts and was accused by the Liberal opposition of selling out Newfoundland's interest to the Reid family as the minister of finance in Winter's government was also on Reid's payroll as his legal council while the contract was being negotiated. The scandal was a factor in the defeat of Winter's government in 1900.

As a jurist, Winter represented Newfoundland at the 1887-1888 fisheries conference in Washington and was senior counsel for the British government when Newfoundland was before the arbitration tribunal at the Hague in 1910 over a fisheries dispute.

The town of Winterton was named after him.

His sons James and Harry both went on to serve as speakers for the Newfoundland assembly.

title: James Spearman Winter


text:
Natchez

Natchez may refer to:

Places

 * Natchez, Alabama, United States
 * Natchez, Indiana, United States
 * Natchez, Louisiana, United States
 * Natchez, Mississippi, a city in southwestern Mississippi, United States
 * Grand Village of the Natchez, a site of Plaquemine culture in Adams County, Mississippi
 * Natchez Trace, a historic trail from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville, Tennessee
 * Natchez Trace Parkway, a United States National Parkway

People with the name

 * Naiche, also known as Natchez, the son of Cochise and last hereditary ruler of the Chiricahua Apaches

Peoples and cultures

 * Natchez language, the language of the Natchez people
 * Natchez people, a Native American nation, namesake of the Mississippi city

Arts, entertainment, and media

 * Les Natchez, a novel by French author François-René de Chateaubriand
 * The Natchez, a painting by Eugène Delacroix

Ships

 * Natchez (boat), several vessels of the same name
 * USS Natchez, three U.S. Navy ships of the same name

Other uses

 * Natchez (horse), American racehorse

title: Natchez


text:
General Convention of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America

The General Convention is the primary governing and legislative body of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America. With the exception of the Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Constitution and Canons, it is the ultimate authority in the Episcopal Church, being the bureaucratic facility through which the collegial function of the episcopate is exercised. General Convention comprises two houses: the House of Deputies and the House of Bishops. It meets regularly once every three years; however, the House of Bishops meets regularly in between sessions of General Convention. The Bishops have the right to call special meetings of General Convention.

All diocesan, coadjutor, suffragan, and assistant bishops of the Episcopal Church, whether active or retired, have seat and vote in the House of Bishops. Each diocese of the Episcopal Church, as well as the Navajoland Area Mission and the Convocation of Episcopal Churches in Europe, is entitled to representation in the House of Deputies by four clergy deputies, either presbyters or deacons, canonically resident in the diocese, and four lay deputies who are confirmed communicants in good standing. The Episcopal Church of Liberia is entitled to representation in the House of Deputies by two clergy deputies and two lay deputies, all with seat and voice but no vote. The Official Youth Presence is a group of eighteen high school youth, two from each province. They also have seat and voice but no vote. Resolutions must pass both houses in order to take effect.

The convention is divided into committees which consider resolutions. Resolutions arise from four different sources:
 * 1) "A" resolutions from interim bodies whose work is collected in what is referred to as the "Blue Book"
 * 2) "B" resolutions which come from Bishops
 * 3) "C" resolutions which come from diocesan conventions and
 * 4) "D" resolutions which originate from Deputies.

Each properly submitted resolution is referred to a convention committee which makes its recommendation to the House. When one house has acted on the resolution it is sent to the other house for consideration.

Presiding Bishop
The presiding officer of the House of Bishops is the Presiding Bishop. Both houses take part in the selection of a new Presiding Bishop. The members of the Joint Nominating Committee for the Election of the Presiding Bishop are elected from both houses. The House of Deputies elects one clerical and one lay delegate from each province, and the House of Bishops elects one bishop from every province to sit on the joint committee. When a new Presiding Bishop is to be elected, the houses meet together in a joint session, and the nominating committee nominates at least three bishops. During the joint session, any deputy or bishop can nominate additional candidates. The House of Bishops elects the Presiding Bishop from among all nominees. The results of the election are reported to the House of Deputies, which then votes to confirm or not to confirm the election.

Other officers
The presiding officers of the House of Deputies are the president and vice president.

A treasurer is elected by the two houses at every regular meeting of General Convention. The treasurer formulates the budget of the Episcopal Church, receives and disburses all money collected under the authority of the convention, and with the approval of the Presiding Bishop invests surplus funds. If the office of treasurer becomes vacant, the Presiding Bishop and the President of the House of Deputies appoints a treasurer until a new election is held. The treasurer of the General Convention and the Executive Council is Kurt Barnes.

At each regular meeting of General Convention, the secretary of the House of Deputies is by concurrent action of both houses made the secretary of the General Convention. The secretary oversees the publishing of the Journal of the General Convention. In addition, the secretary also notifies the bishops and secretaries of every diocese to actions of General Convention, especially alterations to the Book of Common Prayer and the constitution of the Episcopal Church. If the offices of president and vice president become vacant during the triennium, the secretary performs the duties of president until the next meeting of General Convention. The Secretary is also the corporate secretary of the Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society, the corporate body of the Episcopal Church, and one of the four senior officers of the church. The Rev. Canon Michael Barlowe is the Secretary of the House of Deputies, having been appointed upon the retirement of his predecessor, the Rev. Gregory Straub in 2013.

Barlowe is also the Executive Officer of the General Convention, a position filled by joint appointment of the Presiding Bishop and the President of the House of Deputies. The Executive Officer "oversees all aspects of the work of Church governance, from site selection through supervision and funding of the work mandated by the convention". He supervises the secretary, treasurer, and manager of the General Convention and heads the executive office of the General Convention which coordinates the work of the committees, commissions, boards, and agencies (CCAB's).

Interim bodies and standing commissions
Interim bodies, meeting in between sessions of General Convention, include the Executive Council, various standing commissions, and task forces constituted by the Convention which study and draft policy proposals for consideration and report back to General Convention. Task forces may vary in their size, membership, and duration depending on the General Convention resolution that orders their formation. The Executive Council, composed of the officers of General Convention and members elected by the General Convention and provinces of the Church, oversees the execution of the programs and policies adopted by General Convention. Each standing commission consists of five bishops, five priests or deacons, and ten laypersons. Priests, deacons, and lay persons are not required to be deputies. Bishops are appointed by the Presiding Bishop while the other clergy and laypersons are appointed by the president of the House of Deputies. Members are appointed to rotating terms so that the term for half of the members expires at the conclusion of each regular meeting of the General Convention. The standing commissions are:
 * Liturgy and Music
 * Structure, Governance, Constitution and Canons
 * World Mission

The Presiding Bishop and the President of the House of Deputies are ex officio members of all commissions and can appoint personal representatives to attend commission meetings without the right to vote. They jointly appoint Executive Council members as liaison persons to provide communication between the council and each commission. These liaison persons are not commission members and cannot vote; though, they do have voice. The Presiding Bishop also appoints a staff member to assist each commission in its work.

Either house may refer matters to a commission, but one house cannot instruct a commission to take any action without the consent of the other house.

History
The American Revolution was very disruptive to the Episcopal churches in the United States. There had been no Anglican dioceses or bishops in the Thirteen Colonies before the Revolution, thus when the American congregations were separated from the Church of England, "the chain which held them together [was] broken". In 1782, William White, the father of the Episcopal Church, wrote in his pamphlet The Case of the Episcopal Churches in the United States Considered, "it would seem, that their future continuance can be provided for only by voluntary associations for union and good government". In America, the central unit of the church would be the congregation, rather than the diocese. White, a disciple of John Locke, believed that the church, like the state, should be a democracy. He proposed that congregations in each state should unite to form an annual convention (as opposed to a "convocation" or "synod", terms which denote a body called together by a bishop) of clergy and lay representatives of the congregations. In White's plan, the state conventions would send representatives to three provincial conventions which would elect representatives to the General Convention every three years.

The constitution written in 1789 was very similar to White's plan, except that state conventions would elect representatives directly to the General Convention. Bishops would be democratically elected and responsible to the General Convention and their respective state (later diocesan) conventions. Bishops would be "servants of the Church and not its lords". It is often said that the Constitutions of the United States and the Episcopal Church were written by the same people. While this is not true, both were written around the same time in Philadelphia by people who knew each other and who sought to "replace hierarchical rule with egalitarian, democratic government".

The House of Deputies is the older of the two houses having been formed in 1785. William White was the first President of the House of Deputies. The House of Bishops was formed in 1789 to win the support of those who wanted a greater role for bishops. The House of Deputies had the advantage because with an 80 percent majority it could override a veto of the House of Bishops until 1808 when both houses were given absolute vetoes. White became the first Bishop of Pennsylvania and the first Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.

Notable Conventions

 * 1785 Philadelphia—Initial General Convention of the Episcopal Church
 * 1817 New York City—Passed legislation founding General Theological Seminary
 * 1865 Philadelphia—After the close of the Civil War, bishops from two Confederate dioceses are warmly welcomed to General Convention, paving the way for the remaining Southern dioceses to rejoin the church soon afterward.
 * 1976 Minneapolis, Minnesota—Approval of women for Ordination
 * 2003 Minneapolis—The Reverend Gene Robinson was confirmed to be the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church.
 * 2006 Columbus, Ohio—Election of Katharine Jefferts Schori as 26th Presiding Bishop, the first woman in the office. Response to Windsor Report: Dioceses are asked to exercise restraint in ordaining bishops who may cause further strain to the Anglican Communion
 * 2015 Salt Lake City—Election of Michael Bruce Curry as 27th Presiding Bishop, the first African-American in the office. Canonical and liturgical changes removing "language defining marriage as between a man and a woman", thus allowing same-sex marriage for all Episcopalians.
 * 2018 Austin, Texas—After the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, a plan to invest in firearms manufacturers and retailers as a form of shareholder advocacy was approved.


text:
Wall Street bombing

The Wall Street bombing was an act of terrorism on Wall Street at 12:01 pm on Thursday, September 16, 1920. The blast killed 30 people immediately, and another 10 later died of wounds that they sustained in the blast. There were 143 seriously injured, and the total number of injured was in the hundreds.

The bombing was never solved, although investigators and historians believe it was carried out by Galleanists, a group responsible for a series of bombings the previous year.

Attack
At noon, a horse-drawn wagon passed by lunchtime crowds on Wall Street and stopped across the street from the headquarters of the J.P. Morgan & Co. bank at 23 Wall Street, on the Financial District's busiest corner. Inside the wagon, 100 lb of dynamite with 500 lb of heavy, cast-iron sash weights exploded in a timer-set detonation, sending the weights tearing through the air. The horse and wagon were blasted into small fragments, but the driver was seen by witnesses leaving the vehicle and escaping down a side street.

The 40 fatalities were mostly young people who worked as messengers, stenographers, clerks, and brokers. Many of the wounded suffered severe injuries. The bomb caused more than US$2 million ($0 million today) in property damage and destroyed most of the interior spaces of the Morgan building.

Within one minute of the explosion, William H. Remick, president of the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), suspended trading in order to prevent a panic. Outside, rescuers worked feverishly to transport the wounded to the hospital. James Saul, a 17-year-old messenger, commandeered a parked car and transported 30 injured people to an area hospital. Police officers rushed to the scene, performed first aid, and appropriated all nearby automobiles as emergency transport vehicles.

Reaction
The Justice Department's Bureau of Investigation (BOI, the forerunner of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or FBI) did not immediately conclude that the bomb was an act of terrorism. Investigators were puzzled by the number of innocent people killed and the lack of a specific target, other than buildings that suffered relatively superficial, non-structural damage. Exploring the possibility of an accident, police contacted businesses that sold and transported explosives. By 3:30 pm, the board of governors of the NYSE had met and decided to open for business the next day. Crews cleaned up the area overnight to allow for normal business operations, but in doing so they destroyed physical evidence that might have helped police investigators solve the crime. The Sons of the American Revolution had previously scheduled a patriotic rally for the day after (September 17) to celebrate Constitution Day at exactly the same intersection. On September 17, thousands of people attended the rally in defiance of the previous day's attack.

The New York assistant district attorney noted that the timing, location, and method of delivery all pointed to Wall Street and J.P. Morgan as the targets of the bomb, suggesting in turn that it was planted by radical opponents of capitalism, such as Bolsheviks, anarchists, communists, or militant socialists. Investigators soon focused on radical groups opposed to U.S. financial and governmental institutions and known to use bombs as a means of violent reprisal. Often throughout the Gilded Age, radical ideology and violence was used as a form of protest by groups to initiate change. When simple protests were not enough, these extremists would resort to ruthless measures to be heard. Although the violence proved to be detrimental to their overall cause, many historians saw that this was a clear point of radical behavior aimed at facilitating transformation throughout the classes. They observed that the Wall Street bomb was packed with heavy sash weights designed to act as shrapnel, then detonated on the street in order to increase casualties among financial workers and institutions during the busy lunch hour.

Officials eventually blamed anarchists and communists for the Wall Street bombing. The Washington Post called the attack an "act of war". The bombing stimulated renewed efforts by police and federal investigators to track the activities and movements of foreign radicals. Public demands to track down the perpetrators led to an expanded role for the BOI, including the bureau's General Intelligence Division headed by J. Edgar Hoover. The New York City Police Department (NYPD) also pushed to form a "special, or secret, police" to monitor "radical elements" in the city.

On September 17, the BOI released the contents of flyers found in a post office box in the Wall Street area just before the explosion. Printed in red ink on white paper, they said: "Remember, we will not tolerate any longer. Free the political prisoners, or it will be sure death for all of you." At the bottom was: "American Anarchist Fighters". The BOI quickly decided that the flyer eliminated the possibility of an accidental explosion. William J. Flynn, director of the BOI, suggested the flyers were similar to those found at the June 1919 anarchist bombings.

Investigations
The BOI investigation stalled when none of the victims turned out to be the driver of the wagon. Though the horse was newly shod, investigators could not locate the stable responsible for the work. When the blacksmith was located in October, he could offer the police little information. Investigators questioned tennis champion Edwin Fischer, who had sent warning postcards to friends, telling them to leave the area before September 16. He told police he had received the information "through the air". They found Fischer made a regular habit of issuing such warnings, and had him committed to Amityville Asylum, where he was diagnosed as insane but harmless.

The BOI and local police investigated the case for over three years without success. Occasional arrests garnered headlines but each time they failed to support indictments. Most of the initial investigation focused on anarchists and communists, such as the Galleanist group, whom authorities believed were involved in the 1919 bombings. During President Warren G. Harding's administration, officials evaluated the Soviet Union and the Communist Party USA as possible masterminds of the bombing. In 1944, the FBI, successor to the BOI, investigated again. It concluded that its agents had explored many radical groups, "such as the Union of Russian Workers, the I.W.W., Communist, etc. ... and from the result of the investigations to date it would appear that none of the aforementioned organizations had any hand in the matter and that the explosion was the work of either Italian anarchists or Italian terrorists."

One Galleanist in particular, Italian anarchist Mario Buda (1884–1963), an associate of Sacco and Vanzetti and the owner of a car which led to the arrest of the latter for a separate robbery and murder, is alleged by some historians, including Paul Avrich, to be the man most likely to have planted the bomb. Avrich and other historians theorize that Buda acted in revenge for the arrest and indictment of Sacco and Vanzetti. Buda's involvement as the Wall Street bombmaker was confirmed by statements made by his nephew Frank Maffi and fellow anarchist Charles Poggi, who interviewed Buda in Savignano sul Rubicone, Italy, in 1955. Buda (at that time known by the alias of Mike Boda) had eluded authorities at the time of the Sacco and Vanzetti arrests, was experienced in the use of dynamite and other explosives, was known to use sash weights as shrapnel in his time bombs, and is believed to have constructed several of the largest package bombs for the Galleanists. These included the Milwaukee Police Department bombing, which was a large black powder bomb that killed nine policemen in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the time of the bombing, but he was neither arrested nor questioned by police.

After leaving New York, Buda resumed the use of his real name in order to secure a passport from the Italian vice-consul, then promptly sailed for Naples. By November, he was back in his native Italy, never to return to the United States. Galleanists still in the U.S. continued the bombing and assassination campaign for another 12 years, culminating in a 1932 bomb attack targeting Webster Thayer, the presiding judge in the Sacco and Vanzetti trial. Thayer, who survived the ensuing blast that destroyed his house and injured his wife and housekeeper, moved his residence to his club for the last year and a half of his life, where he was guarded 24 hours a day.

In media
The bombing has inspired several books, notably The Day Wall Street Exploded by Beverly Gage, The Death Instinct by Jed Rubenfeld.

Upton Sinclair writes about this event in the book Oil! He argues that there was no conspiracy, rather the bombing was negligence from a truck driver carrying hazardous material who ignored the rules for their safe transport.

The bombing is the subject of the PBS series American Experience episode "The Bombing of Wall Street", broadcast in February 2018.

Additionally, the bombing is depicted in the 2012 period thriller film No God, No Master.

title: Wall Street bombing