text:
Talk:CSS Virginia

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Untitled
If someone wants to undo the redirect from USS Merrimack and give it its own article, the text from the second version of the Virginia article is below. --Carnildo 03:27, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

- A version from http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/v/virginia.htm to be merged.

The ironclad ram CSS Virginia was built at Boston Navy Yard as the frigate USS Merrimack, and commissioned February 20, 1856, Captain G. J. Pendergrast, USN, in command.

Departing Boston she cruised in West Indies and European waters in 1856-57. Following brief repairs she sailed in October 1857 as flagship of the Pacific Squadron, cruising the Pacific coasts of oned at Norfolk, Virginia, [[February 16, 1860. On April 20, 1861, in the confusion following the outbreak of the Civil War, retiring Union forces burned Merrimack to the water line and sank her to preclude capture by the Virginia militia.

The Confederates, in desperate need of ships to challenge the Union Navy's superiority at sea, raised Merrimack and rebuilt the hulk as an ironclad ram, according to a design prepared by naval constructor Lieutenant J. M. Brooke, CSN. Commissioned as CSS Virginia on February 17, 1862, the ironclad was one of a series of efforts -- including blockade runners and submersibles -- intended to whittle away at the effectiveness of the Union Navy's blockade of the Confederacy.

Despite an all-out effort to complete her, Virginia still had workmen on board when she sailed out into Hampton Roads on March 8, 1862. Supported by CSS Raleigh and Beaufort, and accompanied by Patrick Henry, Jamestown, and Teaser, the Confederate warships challenged the Union forces there. Flag Officer F. Buchanan, CSN, commanding Virginia, singled out as first victim the sailing sloop USS Cumberland, anchored west of Newport News, in part to test Virginia's armor against a 70-pounder (32 kg) rifle. In taking position Virginia passed USS Congress and exchanged broadsides, suffering no injury while causing considerable damage to the Union frigate. She crossed Cumberland's bows, raking her with a lethal fire, and finished off the wooden warship with a thrust of her iron ram to conserve scarce gunpowder. Cumberland sank with colors flying, taking 121 men (one third of her crew), and part of Virginia's ram down with her.

Virginia then turned her attention to Congress, which grounded while attempting to close. Opening fire from a distance, and assisted by the lighter ships of the James River Squadron, Virginia forced Congress to haul down her colors. As Beaufort and CSS Raleigh approached Congress to receive the surrender of her crew, Federal troops ashore, not understanding the situation, opened a withering fire and wounded Buchanan, who retaliated by ordering hot shot and incendiary shell fired into Congress. The latter, ablaze and unable to bring a single gun to bear, hauled down her flag for the last time. She burned far into the night and exploded about midnight.

Virginia did not emerge unscathed. Her riddled stack limited her speed -- and she was already slow to begin with -- two of her large guns were out of order, several armor plates were loose, and her ram had been lost in Cumberland. Nevertheless, the ironclad went on to attack Minnesota, but because of depth of water could not close the range to do that steam frigate serious damage. Virginia then turned back and anchored that night at Sewell's Point for repairs. Flag Officer Buchanan was taken ashore to the hospital and Lieutenant Catesby ap Roger Jones, CSN, who had conned the ironclad after Buchanan had been wounded, assumed command.

On the following morning Virginia returned to battle. During the previous night, however, the Union ironclad Monitor had arrived in Hampton Roads after a hazardous trip from New York. The two warships fought a long, inconclusive battle on March 9 -- the first ever fought between powered ironclads -- and Virginia was forced to retire from the area.

On March 25, Flag Officer J. Tattnall, CSN, took command of Virginia and, with the ironclad as his flagship, sought to deny the James River to Union forces. Although the ironclad helped checkmate Union forces for the next several weeks, the Confederates eventually failed to prevent Federal landings at Yorktown or Union operations on the Peninsula. Forced to evacuate Norfolk, Virginia, the Confederates tried to take Virginia up the James River but her draft was too deep. The crew ran her ashore near Craney Island, fired and destroyed her on May 11, 1862.

Name confusion
The topic in question was mildly wrong in stating that the usage of Merrimack (with the 'K') was before the use of Merrimac (without the 'K'). It was the other way around, and I corrected it that way. For proof of that, I had uploaded period newspapers dated March 10-11, 1862, detailing the Battle of Hampton Roads, which refers to the Confederate vessel as the Merrimac, as well as links to official correspondence from that time. This can be found for viewing at the ironclad warships talk page. Carajou 00:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Retreat confusion
In this article, it states that the monitor retreated, but in the Battle of Hampton Roads article, it states that the virginia retreated. What gives? 134.253.26.10 21:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Both retreated: the Virginia landed a shot on the Monitor's pilot house that wounded the captain of the Monitor. The Monitor then backed off to assess the damage. This was interpreted as a retreat by the captain of the Virginia, who ordered his ship back to dock to restock on coal and gunpowder. Virginia's move was in turn interpreted as a retreat by the acting captain of the Monitor. --Carnildo 09:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I noticed that too - I think that if this can be sourced, this version of events should be included in all three articles - while the Victoria article is a bit more nuanced in its statement, the Monitor article and the Battle article outright contradict each other (I was coming here to post a comment about it!) Observer31 02:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

First ram in a thousand years
The article currently contains the phrase "they equipped her with a ram—the first ship so-equipped in over a thousand years", sourced to deKay, James, "Monitor", p. 131, Ballantine Books, 1997. While I don't doubt that deKay wrote that, it has to be poetic license. Galleys with rams where build and operated in the Mediterranean till long after 850. I would suggest to strike or at least weaken that - it is, of course, true that rams became very rare after the introduction of guns and in particular the full-fledged man of war. --Stephan Schulz 17:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC) To add a source: Björn Landström, "Skepped" (1961), reconstructs 16th century Galleasses (as used at Lepanto and even by the Armada) with massive rams. As for online sources, this shows a 16th century English Galeass with a ram. --Stephan Schulz 18:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Burning the USS Congress
Why would virginia burn the Congress after it surrendered unless crew had not finished disembarking? Also is that retaliation to shoot at people who surrendered? Ben5jaaan (talk) 15:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Answer to Burning the USS Congress
After the USS Congress struck her colors in surrender, Virginia continued to be fired upon from the Union batteries and marksmen ashore. Some accounts say small arms fire continued from aboard the Congress, too. This situation has been blamed by historians on "the fog and confusion of war. There was much bloody carnage and confusion aboard the frigate by that time. But in the heat of battle, this blatant violation of the accepted rules of surrender so infuriated the already wounded Commodore Buchanan, captain of the Virginia, that he immediately ordered hot-shot fired into to USS Congress in retaliation for this apparent deceit, setting her ablaze. No quarter was given and she burned all night as a result.

A similar situation happened to the famous Confederate commerce raider, the sloop-of-war CSS Alabama, following her surrender to the USS Kearsarge off the coast of Cherbourg, France. She had struck her colors in defeat, but as Alabama was slowly sinking, her guns were still run out and so appeared to be coming to bear on the Kearsarge. A half-dozen or more heavy Dahlgren cannon shells were fired into the stricken raider, until a hand-held white flag came fluttering from Alabama's stern spanker boom. That finally stopped the action. Please read my detailed description of this battle under Wiki's CSS Alabama entry for more details of this famous sea battle. --Ken Keller, 4 May, 2009

Design and Construction of the CSS Virginia
This provides a very sketchy and inaccurate description of the Virginia's design.

For one thing, it states that the Virginia's decks were protected by 4 inch thick iron. Not true. That is the armor protection on the sides of the casemate.

As for the decks, this is another key point that has been missed. The decks of the Virginia were unarmored. . . because they were supposed to be submerged under two feet of water. Here's what the Virginia's Chief Engineer had to say about the ship's design:

"Her charred upper works were cut away, and in the center a casement shield 180 feet long was built of pitch pine and oak, two feet thick. This was covered with iron plates, one to two inches thick and eight inches wide, bolted over each other and through and through the woodwork, giving a protective armor four inches in thickness. The shield sloped at an angle of almost thirty-six degrees and was covered with an iron grating that served as an upper deck. For fifty feet forward and aft her decks were submerged below the water, and the prow was shod with an iron beak to receive the impact when ramming."

A much more detailed discussion of the submerged end can be found among the letters concerning the design on the Virginia, as recorded in the Southern Historical Society Papers.

The submerged decks concept was novel and notable, and should be highlighted in the article. 67.181.60.83 (talk) 06:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Confederate "ironclad batteries"
'Throughout the war, the Confederacy built many ironclad steam-powered batteries'

Uh...maybe my knowledge of Civil War history is more deficient than I thought, but can anyone provide an example of such a vessel OTHER than CSS Virginia?

My understanding is that Virginia was only possible because (a) the hulk of a steam powered warship was available in the form of USS Merimac after the seizure of the Norfolk naval base by Confederate forces (if I'm not mistaken there were NO steam engine manufacturers in the Confederacy) and (b) the construction of a ship capable of challenging the Union blockade justified the diversion of the entire output of the Confederacy's sole iron foundry (in Richmond) to provide iron plate for the ship. It must be obvious that neither of these circumstances was conducive to the construction of "many" such vessels...and as I say, AFAIK the Virginia was one of a kind.

Also, note that the Virginia was intended primarily to defeat the Union blockade, not as a "floating battery". The Confederacy's entire strategy was predicated on exporting cotton to Europe and using the proceeds to purchase European armaments that it was unable to manufacture (see under no steam engine manufacturers and one iron foundry). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexington50 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Porter/Brooke's design of Virginia served as a model for Confederate "castemate" type ironclads. No, there was exact copy of CSS Virginia. However, CSS Tennessee, Albemarle, Palmetto State, etc. were all built along the same lines. --Gcal1971 (talk) 14:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

 * 1.	Battery or batteries most likely refers to, in this case, the “central battery” warship. These warships generally kept their guns in a single central armored box about amidships.  Most casemated ironclads, which is what most of the Confederate ironclads were, fall into this category.  Therefore, the term battery would be applicable to the ships built by the Confederacy

 * 2.	CSS Virginia was unique in the fact that it was built off of the raised hulk of a purpose-built warship, but it was not the only ironclad built by the Confederacy during the war. These were a mix of conversions, which used the engines and propulsion that were installed in the ship during civilian life and were armored and armed with whatever was available, or were purpose-built constructions, such as the Arkansas class, the Tennessee II class and CSS Albemarle.  The purpose-built ships were a mixed bunch, with some having rolled plate and steamship engines and others using railroad track and repurposed locomotive boilers.  But they were built, with about 17 completed during the war and about 10 more that were started but never completed.  IeShima (talk) 16:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Flags
Why is this section even here? It should be merged into whatever article covers Confederate flags.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm moving this flag stuff off the main page because I can't cite any of it. It really should be incorporated into the article on Confederate flags.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jacks and commissioning pennants
Virginia's original seven-star naval jack (illustration, right) would have flown forward of her battle ensign at prescribed times. It could have flown at two possible locations on the ironclad: atop a tall, portable jackstaff located behind the bow's v-shaped cutwater or atop the tall flagstaff directly behind the conical-shaped pilot house on the casemate's upper deck (historic illustrations and accounts vary). Her original jack would have duplicated the circular seven-star arrangement seen on the square canton of Virginia's original battle ensign. (That 7-star ensign still survives today and is located in the flag collection of the Museum of the Confederacy). Her later 11-star naval jack would have also flown atop the ironclad's jackstaff, matching the circular star arrangement of Virginia's 11-star battle ensign. (That 11-star battle ensign also survives, less four of its stars, and today resides in the collection of the Chicago Historical Society).

All pre-1863 Confederate jacks were of a rectangular shape, rather than square, because the Confederate Navy emulated the overall designs being used by their U. S. Navy counterparts. There is one piece of evidence—the still surviving seven-star naval jack of the captured ironclad CSS Atlanta—that strongly suggests all early Confederate jacks were not a medium blue color but actually a dark blue, matching the color of the ensigns' cantons. Whatever shade of blue, later versions of Virginia's jack would have contained, like her ensign, 9, 11 and 13 white, 5-pointed stars, as additional Southern states seceded and joined the Confederacy during 1861.

Virginia's pre-1863 commissioning pennant would have closely followed the designs being used by the U. S. Navy. It would have been long and narrow and likely one of five approved sizes, being anywhere from 25 ft to 70 ft in their overall lengths. Several surviving drawings from the era show a much shortened pennant flying forward from Virginia's upper casemate flag staff. Because the ironclad was a new type of steam powered warship, without the usual tall masts, it is possible her pennant would have been much shorter, perhaps no longer than the maximum height of the ironclad's upper casemate flag staffs. The pennant's medium or possibly dark blue canton (hoist) could have been up to one-quarter of its overall fly (length). It would have carried from 7 to 13 white, 5-pointed white stars as the number of states in the Confederacy grew. The star pattern could have been staggered up and down or laid out in a single, horizonital row across the blue canton (historic accounts and drawings of pennants vary). The remaining portion of the long, narrow streamer would have been divided equally with two stripes, red-over-white (some accounts say white-over-red), with both stripes terminating in twin-forked points. A slightly modified third pennant variant with three long, horizontal red-over-white-over-red stripes, terminating in twin-forked points, was also used by the Confederate Navy before 1863.
 * Madaus, H. Michael, Rebel Flags Afloat: A Survey of the Surviving Flags of the Confederate States Navy, Revenue Service, and Merchant Marine, Winchester, MA, Flag Research Center, 1986. ISSN 0015-3370. (An 80-page special edition of "The Flag Bulletin, #115" covering all known surviving Confederate naval flags.)

Mary Louvestre notable?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2013/02/mil-130225-nns01.htm Somehow, Union Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles learned of the refitting of the Merrimack, which began in April 1861.

 * Is the spycraft worth noting here? Hcobb (talk) 14:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

redirects
CSS Virginia I and CSS Virginia 1 should redirect here -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

When was the "reconstruction as an ironclad" completed?
The article states that the salvage of the USS Merrimack was completed "by May 30" of 1861.

However, the section describing her reconstruction as an ironclad does not state any start or finish dates.

Since the Battle of Hampton Roads took place on March 8, 1862, I was curious if anyone knew how long and on what date the USS Merrimack's reconstruction was completed? Or, if anyone knew on what date the former USS Merrimack was christened the CSS Virginia?

Thank you for your time and consideration. Jensenr629 (talk) 00:56, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Jensenr629 (talk) 01:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * According to what Carnildo wrote in the section titled (ironically?) "Untitled":
 * The USS Merrimack was "[c]ommissioned as CSS Virginia on February 17, 1862." Unfortunately, the link that Carnildo cited in 2004 has gone stale, so "further study is required."

 * Carnildo goes on to state that: "Despite an all-out effort to complete her, Virginia still had workmen on board when she sailed out into Hampton Roads on March 8, 1862." So, apparently, CSS Virginia's reconstruction was never actually "completed."

 * The Internet Archive has a copy of the page at, while the current DANFS has merged it into the page on the Merrimack. Both list February 17, 1862, as the date of commissioning.  Based on what I've read in various places, the Virginia was never really completed -- there were perpetual difficulties with the steering gear and the steam engines, both damaged in the initial sinking. --Carnildo (talk) 03:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

 * --Thank you, Carnildo. I appreciate your assistance and your efforts. --Jensenr629 (talk) 03:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Location/Status of the Naval Ensign?
The Destruction sections says that the ensign still exists and is at the Chicago History Museum but it doesn't look like there's a source for this and I can't find a reference that it's there; can anyone confirm/source this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SacrovirTheGaul (talk • contribs) 21:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

After reaching out to the Chicago History Museum, a collection manager told me there is no documentation of the flag in their collection, and that if it was there in the past there is no record of it. I think this statement in the article is an error. --SacrovirTheGaul (talk) 00:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

source needed
The article mentions an 1867 classified ad in the Norfolk Virginian regarding the ship's ram, but no source is provided. Can someone provide supporting evidence for this important (IMO) piece of information? Elsquared67 (talk) 21:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:CSS Virginia


text:
Talk:Pancho Villa

Year of Birth
For the sake of consistency across the Wikipedia encyclopedias, I have adjusted the date of birth from 1877 to 1878. Although I'm aware that the exact date of his birth is under debate, the general consensus seems to be that 1878 is the correct year. This discussion page brought up the birth date back in 2005, but not much explanation was given for the reason behind the two birth years in the article. If anyone strongly opposes this edit, feel free to revert the year back to 1877, but in the meantime, I'll try to browse some Spanish language (and more specifically, Mexican) sources to try to find a good source to quote for the birth date. .cosme. (talk) 14:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Dying Words
I always see these punctuated slightly differently, but I'm rather certain that they weren't delivered in a deadpan. Isn't an exclamation point due? --65.0.255.37 18:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Deadpan? I take it the pun was intended? ;-) I would assume that having been badly perforated, Villa likely barely croaked out the words before he, uh, croaked. Tubezone 06:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Unsupported Allegations Regarding Villa's Family Origins
I have deleted a paragraph which alluded, without mention of any supporting evidence, to a spurious "theory" that Villa's father was a Jewish businessman from Cleveland. Furthermore, the paragraph in question gave names of several purported descendants of this person without explaining their relevance (if any) to the subject at hand. The deleted paragraph follows:

-->"Another theory of his ancestry was that he was the illigitimate son of Consuelo Lopez Arumbula and Toby Dubinsky, a Jewish immigrant from Czarist Russia, who briefly visited Mexico on business and later relocated to Cleveland, Ohio, in the United States, where he married Ruth Braun and had sons Timothy, Israel (Serrol), Albert, and Sydney."<--

If the authors of the aforementioned paragraph believe that there is any truthfulness in their assertions, they should submit, for public perusal and approval, evidence, documentation and/or references that would substantiate their account.

-Speleo

Perhaps this isn't true, but you might want to check the following Pancho Villa site: http://www.ojinaga.com/villa/ and then check out a book they talk about regarding Villa's Jewish roots. Lots of research - BRAND NEW BOOK SHOWS THAT VILLA MAY HAVE BEEN JEWISH! CLICK HERE http://www.ojinaga.com/osorio/

- just check it out -- Nancy

"This was the only attack on the continental United States by a foreign government or foreigner in modern times." I removed this sentence. I think someone else attacked the US as well a few years ago. --Mixcoatl 22:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Took Out Some Vandalism
Somebody had added "Napoleon Dynamite" under Antonio Banderas under the list of actors who had portrayed Villa, and added something along the lines of "ima cool farmer from kansas" under the quotes. Fixed. ~Atog

 * Now who in the world would put that in?Iceberg2229 00:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

i enjoy crabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.104.175 (talk) 22:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Needs MORE Work
The beginning of the Mexican Revolution go back to the time of Porfirio Diaz. Pacho Villa was one of the persons who started the Revolution, after being recruited by Madero.

WRONG PHOTO! Photo supposedly showing "Francisco Villa as a child" is of Agustín Villa Corral, Pancho and Luz Corral's eldest son. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richmx2 (talk • contribs) 02:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅: . G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 18:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Needs Work
There are some incomprehensible sentences near the beginning: "There one of the owners of the property attempted against its older sister, and Villa hurt it of three shots, fleeing to the mount to avoid his punishment. He ran away and there join into the Gang of Francisco Villa a former cattle rustler, at his dead Doroteo take his name and his fame." Attempted what? "its older sister" means what? "hurt it of three shots" means "hurt him with three shots," perhaps? "the mount" may mean "the mountains" but a mount can be a horse so maybe he fled on a horse. "At his dead" means "at his death?" Probably needs better translation from Spanish Pdn 21:22, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

he was born in mexico

He was mexican

In World War Two, the Japanese launched "This was the only military attack on or invasion of the continental United States by a foreign state or foreig jet-stream ballons which caused forest fires and a few casulties. Or the Japanese Sub shelling of a Long Beach, CA refinery. Would the invasion of the Aleutian Islands be consider 'continental' or not?

At a minimum, remove the words "only miltitary attack on"

So, according to a Biography (possibly by A&E, unsure) video on Pancho Villa, the truth about the whole attack-on-US-soil-incident is that it was the first invasion/attack by a foreign country on US soil since the War of 1812. Just thought I'd put that out there. How Impossible 23:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Does El centauro del norte really mean the fart of the northern sky?

Centauro (Spanish) means centaur (English). A centaur is any of a race of creatures fabled to be half human and half horse and to live in the mountains of Thessaly, see [www.m-w.org]. "El centauro del norte" simply means "the northern centaur". It is a metaphor to refer to Villa, since he was from the North of Mexico, fighting the Revolution mainly on the Northern States of the country, and he was always with a horse. General Villa's cavalry was quiet an impressive war machine. It is interested to mention that his army was one of the first to have an airplane and he also used cars. --adriana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.144.99.40 (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect Actor
Note actor Skeet Ulrich (1956) points to modern day actor. Should add clarification.

Commented-Out material
This section was commented out and replaced by Nimlot. I have moved it here for reference.

He was born on 5 June 1877 in the Río Grande Ranch, in San Juan del Río, Durango. as a member of a very humble family. His father died while he was young, so he had to work the land to maintain to his mother and brothers, in the property of Cogojito. There one of the owners of the property attempt to assault his elder sister, and Villa shot him three times and subsequently fled to the mountains to avoid punishment. There he met and joined Francisco Villa's gang, a former cattle rustler. Upon Francisco Villa's death, Doroteo Arango took his name and his fame.

The Governor of Chihuahua, Abraham González, considered a valuable element for the revolution prepared by Madero, against the government of Porfirio Díaz. González urged Villa to fight by the Revolution by providing him with weapons and money; Villa obtained men and horses, and as ordered in the Plan of San Luis, on 20 November he led an uprising, thereby joining the revolutionary effort. He operated in the south of Chihuahua and the north of Durango, assaulting specially federal trains that transported troops north to fight the revolutionaries. Villa fought until Madero became the head of the new government, and returned to fighting in 1913 after the assassination of Madero by Victoriano Huerta. Huerta then allied with Carranza against the usurpation of the presidency by Huerta, and in view of which already he had reached reputation by his boldness and value, the revolutionary heads of Chihuahua], Coahuila and Durango proclaimed head to it of the Division of the North, that got to be most powerful, between the revolutionary armies. In the Carrancistas campaigns Villa reached his better triumphs, taking Torreón, Ciudad Juárez and Ojinaga, and still he initiated the victorious advance towards the south of the country. Nevertheless, Carranza delayed to Villa by the proximity of other heads, specially the sonorenses, reason why Villa began to also separate of the Maximum Head of the Revolution. In 1914, Carranza mentioned a convention of the revolutionary forces, to file harshness among them, without obtaining its objective, because Villa seized of the convention, in Aguascalientes, and broke relations with Carranza, nominating a new president of the Republic, Villa took, with the General Emiliano Zapata, the city of Mexico, having Carranza that to flee towards the port of Veracruz. But then the sonorense Alvaro Obregón, constitutionalist commander of the forces of Carranza, calls, began to beat to those of Villa, convencionistas calls, until managing to annihilate them, in the famous battle of Celaya, where Obregón lost an arm. Villa looked for the recognition of the United States, for his government, and as he did not obtain it, he visited the border population of Columbus, where he take weapons. U.S. general Pershing entered Mexican territory, persecuting it, without never reaching it. Carranza was dead in 1917, apparently by its same

U.S. President Woodrow Wilson responded by sending 12,000 troops, under Gen. John J. Pershing, into Mexico on March 15 to pursue Villa. In the U.S., this was known as the Pancho Villa Expedition. During the search, the United States launched its first air combat mission when eight aeroplanes lifted off on March 19. The expedition to capture Villa was called off as a failure on January 28, 1917

Re: Comments?
Some important facts to remember when trying to understand the Columbus attack:

1) Wilson never sided with the federalist forces. He always supported the revolutionaries. In the fall of 1915 with the First World War making it necessary for the US to have clear conditions in Mexico, Wilson decided to recognize Carranza as the de-facto President of Mexico. The decision making process that led to this is hotly debated. It seems that the State Department head of the Latin American desk, Leon Canova, who hated Villa, pushed for Carranza's recognition (See Katz' article on Columbus). Villa, who was taken by complete surprise, was furious. However, the attack on Columbus might have been a calculated move on his part to cause an intervention which he hoped would rally the Mexican masses under his flag against the Americans. 2)The fact that German weapons were used in Mexico have nothing obvious to do with a conspiracy. The 7mm Mauser was the weapon of choice, widely available and cheap. However, sourcing these weapons required contacts between German arms dealers and the Mexican revolutionaries. Hans Tauscher and Felix Sommerfeld are the best known, both were German secret agents in World War I. In Mexico, the Mauser dealer was Guillermo Bach who worked closely with Paul von Hintze, the German ambassador in Mexico until 1914 and head of the German naval intelligence. 3) Lastly, the death of Huerta might or might not have resulted from natural causes. He was arrested by American authorities in 1915 when he tried to enter Mexico and fight to restore his dictatorship. He was financed by money from Germany supplied through Franz von Rintelen and Franz von Papen. After his arrest he was incarcerated at Fort Bliss where he became sick. The American government released him and he recovered his health. Then they arrested him again and he died. Very murky circumstances that could point to some kind of poisoning. No research has uncovered the facts yet.60.247.107.98 (talk) 23:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Villa attacked Columbus partly because President Wilson suddenly sided with Federalist forces and kept the gold Villa pqaid for a shipment of arms. The killing of 19 young mining engineers--one was only wounded, and crawled to safety where he told the tale. Other anti-American leanings he had developed were resentment of the power used for lights in a night attack by federals,as noted, coming from the US. President Taft wisely had never taken sides during his presidency.

Villa did not drink or smoke. He did nott trust Huerta partly because he was a lush. Villa, however, loved to get married; he never simply dated. He had a lot of children m by different wives. He was anti-clerical; as many were during the revolution, he did not care about the Catholic church's vieww on polygamy or divorce. He had once forced a priest, at gunpoint, to marry a pregnant girl.

80% of the guns used in the revolution, this includes Federal forces, were of German origin. Wheteher this points to a conspiracy or not is again speculation. The Mausers and German-made Maxims were the finest guns available in the early revolution; why Not use them? However, old trapdoor Springfields, Winchester '94's and '96's were also used. Benet-Mercier and 1895 Colt machine guns were used, also. Villa is seen with a model 1896 Winchester in one photo.

Victoriano Huerta escaped to the U.S, where he died of Natural causes in El Paso. Texas.68.231.184.217 (talk) 15:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

"Chinese extraction"
What in the world is that supposed to mean? 68.118.193.44 10:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Villa had no Chinese blood, as far as he knew. But he was very anti-Sino--he shot Chinese when he saw them, fearing they would:"bastardise the Mexican people."68.231.184.217 (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Colombian origin?
An emailed question, being posted on behalf of someone who is having trouble posting. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 20:46, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

> > Was Pancho Villa from Colombia? > > * > > Regarding Pancho Villa, there is a lot of controversy around when > > and where he was born. There are some theories that suggest he was > > actually born in Colombia, South America. Some of these theories > > also suggest there is no interest to find the true about the real > > place where he was born, he is a national hero and it's better if > > mexicans continue to believe this legendary caracter was in fact > > mexican. I tried to find more information about it on the internet > > but my attempts have failed. I found an interview by El Tiempo > > (newspaper) in Colombia in Spanish, February 2005, where his > > granddaughters said this is a mystery. They were asked if it is > > true he is Colombian and there answer was "this is a mystery, we do not know for sure". Was he Colombian?*

The nationality and birth place of Villa are not under discussion and they have never been. It is common that once someone becomes a hero, a well known and admired General and a revolutionary, it is easy to become part of myths and rumors. This is what happened to Villa. You can find well documented information in the book "Pancho Villa: una biografía narrativa" by Paco Ignacio Taibo II.

Bad link to editorial
The external link to a Tuscon newspaper editorial about Pancho's statue in Tucson does not work. I have searched the newspaper's archives for 2003 and 2004 and turned up nothing. The link needs to be corrected or removed. Jm546 21:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Birthday?
Why is it that we give two different dates for his birthday? Lead gives a very exact date, but then the body insists on a different date. I think the source of the discrepancy should be explained. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza  19:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Please see this section of the article.

 * actually no one knows for sure when Villa was born, so 2 dates are listed.

rancho villa
I've seen (somewhere) Villa was killed on his ranch @Parral. Confirm & include? Trekphiler 23:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Microsoft Encarta states he retired to his ranch in Chihuahua where he was killed in 1923. -ksands 23:10, 10 January 2006

 * If that's what Encarta states, Encarta is wrong. (See, that'll teach you to trust Bill Gates) All the reliable sources I know of say he was killed in the streets of Hidalgo del Parral, Chihuahua. His bullet-riddled car is in the Museo de la Revolucion in Chihuahua City. His ranch was the hacienda of El Canutillo, Durango. Tubezone 10:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * yes, he was killed by a party of assasins while he was leaving in his car to his Hacienda. Theres an Antonio Banderas movie that depicts the events rather accurately.

Microsofts Encarta is definitely wrong if it states that Villa was killed in Chihuahua City. My Father was born and raised in Parral and was close by when it happened. Not on the same street, but a block or so away.

Buried Treasures
According to treasure and metal detecting magazines, such as Lost Treasure, he has literally buried/cached several gold and silver items worth @ least $20 Billion in several places in Mexico. Martial Law 20:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * These magazines may be found in metal detecting dealerships, online. Martial Law 20:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That number might be correct given the fact that it was used to support the revolution, which includes paying salaries to his army, food, medicine, doctors, coal for the trains, paying to the widows of fallen Revolutionaries, buying arms and other supplies. You can read a out this in Paco Ignacio Taibo II book "Pancho Villa". Probably the most exhaustive history book on Villa, and the book that uses all available references.

According to an old book found at the old library at Mission San Lius Rey in Oceanside Ca. This book contains short stories that pretained to Panco Villa and as a Bandito and calling Escondido Ca. (meaning the hidding place) In one of these short stories there was one which had some accounts by several people whom new him personally. One that caught my attention was one that stated Pancho one day show up, in his camp with three very large wagons with only one driver per wagon which was very unusual because these wagons almost always had two drivers. He stated to everyone there that he was to make a three day trip north on the road they called El Diablo (devil's Highway) he was not to be followed and that he should return in a week. These wagons said to be carrying what appeared to be heavy loads of cargo. Stating that Pancho did return in about eleven days and the drivers where never seen again. What mite those wagons have carried? He new the area well of the ranchitos that were used by the missions to grow food and also that at these sites often had mining sites at there locations which would offer a perfect hidding place for his riches which were never found. he is said to have always paid his debts in either Gold or Silver, yet there was not any of this fortune ever found! I believe that even our government attempted to find it by setting the military base at Camp Pendelton around a rancito Da los Roses which sits right in the middle of this base hoping that his treasure might be hidden there, they knew that the mexican presidente of California hid at this rancho nearly five years before they caught him. this rancho might seem within a three day trip north of Escondito. with a wagon full of Gold or Silver its doughful they travel as far as that in three days. Where might he have put a fortune in a hole in the ground! Use the drivers to haul it inside and blow the entrance so there's knowone to every tell of his secret. ???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.206.207.251 (talk) 07:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note that this page isn't for discussing your theories about Pancho Villa, but for discussing ways to improve the article. Unless you have information from reliable sources, I don't think that this is appropriate for the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

vandalism
took out the words "oh yeah baby, give it to me" from the section outlining the revolt against diaz

Source info in first section?
Should the source info really be in the first section? I think it should be moved to the bottom. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.168.173.170 (talk) 06:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Potential fact error introduced - due to defective bullets Purchased from the United States
This statement was added by User:64.113.172.14 on March 21, 2007. The referenced URL, Villa's Raid on Columbus, New Mexico makes no mention of such a purchase. Instead, there is a paragraph about alleged arms purchases that were reneged. Recommend deletion. Ronbo76 11:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

"Descendants"
It describes Villa's sister's daughter's sons as his descendants. However these are not direct descendants of Villa's as they are neither his children nor descended from his children. Should the language be changed to say that they are the only known living relatives? I didn't want to make that change because I don't know if it would be accurate stated that way but perhaps someone who knows more could confirm this? Usually when one says descendants one is talking about a series of one or more parent-child relationships.

Wikipedia has two pancho villa pages
$$Insert formula here$$ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markmrf (talk • contribs) 22:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

two pages on Pancho Villa
I find two pages on Pancho Villa under two different URL's. Also I don't think Pancho Villa was in the Vietnam war and I'm pretty sure he didn't drive a pink pickup truck or found the Yamaha Motorcycle company.

Markmrf 22:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That looks like vandalism to me.Iceberg2229 00:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Article
I guess the article is better off referring to what it is address to now inspite that there's another person who goes by the same name. The one here is the original to wear that monicker. FoxLad 04:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. I'll add redirects from Doroteo Arango Arámbula and Doroteo Arangoalready done by someone else to this article. --barneca (talk) 14:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yaqui
My father has always told me that he was a Yaqui. Perhaps someone out there can verify this...--Amedeo Felix 17:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC) The talk page is for discussing the article, not your father's origins.Iceberg2229 00:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Man, what a horrible misunderstanding leading to some hilarious ignorance. Way to read english, Iceberg2229. amadeofelix was asking as to whether or not Pancho Villa was of Yaqui descent, NOT his father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.61.22 (talk) 09:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
I've been looking at the article, and it needs some cleanup. It discusses mainly the political problems of the time instead of the life of Pancho Villa like it should. Otherwise me might as well rename the article.Iceberg2229 00:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

huh?
i took out the trivia section because it did not contain references. Iceberg2229 00:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting information
"Villa's remarkable generalship and recruiting appeal, combined with ingenious fundraising methods to support his rebellion, would be a key factor in forcing Huerta from office a little over a year later, on July 15, 1914."

"The loss of Zacatecas in June 1914 broke the back of the Huerta regime, and Huerta left for exile on July 14, 1914."

Obviously, these can't both be right. --69.7.37.69 (talk) 07:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC) pancho villa is awesome —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.102.15.114 (talk) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Date of death
Google seems fairly evenly divided between 20 June, 20 July and 23 July. Can anyone convince me which one is correct? -- JackofOz (talk) 13:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed possible vandalism/Lead needs clean-up?
I removed a reference to a "Sam Buckhalter" who doesn't appear elsewhere on wikipedia or return any google results besides those that are directly quoting the text of this article. If it isn't outright vandalism, Mr. Buckhalter doesn't seem significant enough to warrant a mention.

I also wonder how people feel about the lead to this article. It seems a little messy and I don't think it gives a good overview of Villa's life and significance. What do others think? Does it need a re-write? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afamiglietti (talk • contribs) 14:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Last Words
Just finished watching an episode of QI and at the end of the show Stephen Fry ended with a quote of Pancho's last words, apparently they are "Don't let it end like this, tell them I said something" Perhaps if these last words can be cited they could be mentioned in the article, as it is quite a nice little story RohypnolFTW (talk) 20:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Those were definitely not his last words. Just think of the fact that he was shot 300 bullets while he was driving his car and not expecting the raid. Of course, he died long before those 300 bullets touched him or the car! -adriana citlali —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.144.99.40 (talk) 20:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Villa wasn't driving; his friend Trillo was. He was found hanging over the passenger side's door, face up, dead. Only 40 rounds werre fired by the assassins; but he was only hit 9 or so times--still, he was dead enough. He had shot back until he could shoot no more. He hit a couple of the assassins. He then dropped the revolver, slumped back, his eyelids flickering while a moan escaped his lips. His mouth remained half open. The shooters used Government-issued Mauser rifles, but whether it was a government conspiracy is up to conjecture.68.231.184.217 (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I could care less about his last words, as many readers could, but the article could use some more information on his death, such as events leading up to it and how exactly everything occured. I hate to say it but at this time this is a very confusing article to read and needs a lot of cleaning up especially in Villa's later years. Chuck61007 (talk) 00:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The Hunt for Pancho Villa; number discrepency
According to Eric Foner's History Textbook Give Me Liberty!: An American History, Volume 2, 2nd edition, page 724, over 10,000 troops were sent into Northern Mexico, not 6,000. --75.48.22.63 (talk) 04:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Rangers1915.JPG
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 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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The whole shot a rapist thing
In his own version of his life at the age of 16 he shot an older man, the son of a big landowner, who had tried to rape Pancho's younger sister Martina. After this, being pursued for murder, he escaped. (This version is debunked - see Jeff Howell at References below.)

This statement makes it seem like Jeff Howell discredited the entire story while in the article it states

Historians are divided over the actual events that occurred in 1894. The story goes that Doroteo, age 16, shot Agustín López Negrete for trying to rape Doroteo's sister Martina. Surprisingly, Negrete did not order Doroteo arrested or killed. Villa scholar, Friedrich Katz, questioned this train of events because when Doroteo, now Francisco Villa, was arrested in 1898, the charges brought were mule and gun theft, not the attempted murder of a wealthy hacendado.

I dont know if its important but ive seen editors fight over less important things in smaller articles. Sorry if im wrong or my statements make no sense. Take care.--99.186.19.2 (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

More Vandalism
Recommend removing sentances quoted below found in the Introduction portion:

"He is believed to be gay, and while visiting Mission, Texas during spring break, he met a man named Alex Reguera, who happened to be metro. They had 43 kids, who are illegally living in the United States." —Preceding unsigned comment added by MTC03 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Columbus
He lost the battle of Columbus, whereas this pages says that he won. I don't know who put that in and then acknowledged that Wikipedia's article on the battle disputes it, but I'm changing it. J1.grammar natz (talk) 02:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Who owns this fantasy article on El Bandito?
Who wrote, owns and prevents accuracy in this fantasy article about a man who is simply known as "El Bandito" in my areas in Yucatan and the neighboring states? This is shameful. I am sure soon Wikipedia will carry articles about other "international heroes" like Chingiz Khan and Attila the Hun as well, now that Pancho Villa is a revolutionary hero!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1383:8B32:21F:5BFF:FEE9:91AA (talk) 23:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was consensus for move I am snowing this a bit early, as this is so clear cut as the common name; none of us need to do any research to know that is the case with such a world famous figure.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Francisco "Pancho" Villa → Pancho Villa — First, articles should avoid doing stuff like having parenthesis in article names. Second, he was best known as just Pancho Villa. Pancho Villa already redirects to this article, so that isn't a problem. Checking the logs, it was moved in March 2009 after a editor claimed that this is how it's written in their history book. However, that is not the common name for him from my experience, and different textbooks use different names for people.  TJ   Spyke   19:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * Support the common, popular, and famous English name should be used (at least in this case). Flamarande (talk) 09:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks like most of the refs and external links call him Pancho Villa. Station1 (talk) 18:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. Article titles that place nicknames in quotes between first and last names are almost never a good idea. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Connected
This may be irrelevant and seem like a big fat lie, but my great-grandmother was Micaela Arambula's best friend, believe it or not. Sirius85 (talk) 23:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

--Ballad of Pancho and Lefty== Does Townes van Zandt's song "The Ballad of Pancho and Lefty," derive from parts of Villa's life? 11:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tapered (talk • contribs)

Name of birthplace
I changed the name of his birthplace from "Rancho de la Loyotada" to "Rancho de la Coyotada". It appears that the error comes from p. 58 of Frank McLynn's book, which is cited. You can see it in Google Books searching "Rancho de la Loyotada". La Coyotada is about 50 miles NNE of Victoria de Durango. --Kenatipo (talk) 17:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I changed the reference from McLynn's book to one from Katz's book. --Kenatipo (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Supposed last words
I have referenced and corrected this brief passage. The idea that Villa survived long enough to deliver any last words is remarkably pervasive. Unfortunately I can't say exactly when the story originated, but there is certainly no contemporary reference to it, and Villa's biographer, Katz, confirms he died instantly.Mikedash (talk) 10:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

No, he lived long enough to shoot back a couple times. His last "words" were a moan as he slumped over, dropping the revolver.68.231.184.217 (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Source? Katz cites several for pretty much instantaneous death. Mikedash (talk) 15:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Photo of Pancho Villa and Gen. Pershing correction
The famous photo of Pancho Villa and Pershing at Ft. Bliss needs a correction. Recent research into those who participated in the Punitive Expedition has shown that the person in the background is not George S. Patton but is, instead James Lawton Collins, an aide to Pershing. Here is the citation: http://www.desertexposure.com/201101/201101_tw-pershing.php  Edit semi-protected  Drewonimo (talk) 00:47, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

 * This may be true but I think we need a somewhat more reliable source to back it up. Is there a recent academic article or a book on this somewhere?  Volunteer Marek   01:55, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

The citation is actually a very reliable source. The author is a trained archeologist and historian who, as a resident of Columbus, NM has, in his retirement, conducted considerable historical research on behalf of the Columbia Historical Association and the First Aero Squadron Foundation, of which he is a board member. (http://www.firstaerosquadron.org)  Consequently, he has conducted extensive biographical research on each of the First Aero Squadron's flyers from the Punitive Expedition, including James Lawton Collins, who is the person actually cited in the photo, not George Patton. The question I would have, is other than the repetition of anecdote, what is the reliable information that this is George Patton? Obviously, given his notoriety, there is considerable desire to have that be George Patton but no evidence that it is. Reliable information on Patton indicates that he didn't meet Pershing nor was he stationed at Ft. Bliss until after the photo was taken. Reliable information on James Lawton Collins is that he was Pershing's personal aide, stationed at Ft. Bliss, present at this meeting and generally inseparable from his commander. Drewonimo (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

That first photo of him on a horse is either very lousy or he was very young--or, it wasn't him? A more typical, not stereotypical, photo is in order. Like, with his usual felt hat back on his head, a toothy smile on his face.68.231.184.217 (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Columbus
According to the page on the Battle of Columbus, it was a disastrous defeat for Villa, not a victory. I'm revising it from "won" to "lost" in the list of battles here. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 18:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

 * What gives? Mike Rosoft, why did you revert that edit with no explanation or discussion? The Battle of Columbus page still lists the battle as a defeat for Villa, so why list it as a victory for him here? 206.208.105.129 (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Fixed. Thanks, Mike. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 12:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Article seems to reflect authers personal opinion...
"A plausible explanation of any Villa-German contacts after 1915 would be that they were a futile extension of increasingly desperate German diplomatic efforts and Villista PIPE DREAMS of victory as progress of their respective wars bogged down. Villa effectively did not have anything useful to offer in exchange for German help at that point."

Could have been; "Villistas dwindling odds", "Villistas decreased chances", any number of less derogatory or insulting things.....

Sort of capitalised what I meant there, and the statement could very well be true, but I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be objective? I wouldn't care so much, but even the president has quoted straight from Wikipedia last year at his medal of honour presentation I know for a fact, I was looking up people as he was reading his prompter and followed him word for word...

Not to be hyper critical that line up there just jumped out as insulting, belittling, more like propaganda than an objective take on history... You don't like Mexicans fine, but insulting them doesn't make you look any better or justify treatment of them past or present even to us "Americans".... (just wondering the point?) JohnJacobJingleheimerShmidt (talk) 01:00, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Politics
It might be interesting to add something about his politics, like what kind of revolutionary vision or program he projected. Don't know how much it's mentioned in the rest of the article Dudanotak (talk) 03:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I love Pancho Villa! He makes good punch! Tell boo boo Pancha say hi! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.97.217.230 (talk) 04:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Pancho Villa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101202041129/http://www.dallasnews.com:80/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030908dntexvilla.3c17a58.html to http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030908dntexvilla.3c17a58.html

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Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 21:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent Edits
I mostly tweaked the wording for readability. I also cut out a lengthy block of text beginning the War With Huerta section since it did nothing but recap the last paragraphs of the previous section. I'll be back later to work on it some more. Hope this meets with approval. SereneRain (talk) 01:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 02:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Bad citations
I have found no fewer than ten bad citations. They point to Hickman, Kennedy. "Pancho Villa: Mexican Revolutionary", currently numbered FN 11. In most instances, the text is not supported by the cited source. I am removing as many bad citations as I can find. Oldsanfelipe (talk) 10:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * There are about 55 citations referring to the Hickman article. This source contains about nine paragraphs. It looks like these citations were used to cover up original research. Oldsanfelipe (talk) 11:07, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I have gone through and updated a number of citations that referred to the Hickman article, most the information I did find appropriate sources and in some places I have updated the article in line with better sources. DoingItForTheCredit (talk) 05:26, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do the new better citations mean that User:Oldsanfelipe's tag of original research should be deleted? Articles with lots of tags warn people off from reading them, so if that tag can be removed, that would be good. BTW It would also be good if Oldsanfeliope would set up a user page in addition to registering his/her/their username.Amuseclio (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2021 (UTC)Amuseclio

Quinta Luz
I removed the translation of Quinta Luz as 'Fifth Light'. In this context quinta means a country house or villa and Luz was his wife's name so the correct translation is 'Luz's Villa' or 'Villa Luz'. I tried to search for the etymology of quinta and it seems it comes from country farms rented out to sharecroppers who would pay one fifth of their crops as rent. Later the word came to denote a large country or farm house. See e.g. .188.76.175.230 (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Sus crimenes
Masacro pueblos enteros de personas inocentes, mató niños, violo mujeres y niñas, entre muchas atrocidades que están documentadas pero que preferimos olvidar por conservar héroes inmaculados. Agreguenlo le daría mayor contexto a su biografia 177.239.94.72 (talk) 07:51, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I think the Spanish pronunciation given should be [ˈbiʝa], with the voiced palatal fricative /ʝ/, as that is the Mexican pronunciation. Check Mexican Spanish. 200.68.168.35 (talk) 19:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC) That was me. AldoEZ (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

ESTIMATED DEAD ??
TWO MEXICANS WERE ESTIMATED DEAD ??? !!!!!! 199.116.88.38 (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

 * I believe you are referring to the Glenn Springs incident, for which the source was https://archive.org/details/annualreportswa110deptgoog/page/10/mode/1up.
 * What is your point? Is there a change that you wish to propose? Peaceray (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ASSUMED DEAD ? APPROXIMATED DEAD ?   OR IS THE COUNT ESTIMATED ? 199.116.88.38 (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Pancho Villa


text:
Talk:Bombing of Tokyo

War crime
Why isn't there a single mention of a war crime in any passage? 37.191.205.220 (talk) 06:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Strategic bombing of civilian targets was not declared a war crime until 1977, however, some mention may be included. I believe that perhaps Curtis Lemay's acknowledgment that he would have been prosecuted for war crimes if he was on the losing side because of the firebombing (see []) should at least be considered for mention. However, it is important that a neutral point of view must be maintained, so it cannot be outright classified as a war crime or spoken of definitively as a war crime without broad consensus. InevitableOwl talk  21:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bombing of Tokyo