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Florida Street

Florida Street (Calle Florida) is a popular shopping street in Downtown Buenos Aires, Argentina. A pedestrian street since 1971, some stretches have been pedestrianized since 1913.

The pedestrian section as such starts at the intersection of Perú Street and Avenida de Mayo, a block north of the Plaza de Mayo; Perú Street crosses Rivadavia Avenue, and becomes Florida Street. Florida Street runs northwards for approximately one kilometer to Plaza San Martín, in the Retiro area. It intersects Buenos Aires's other pedestrian street, Lavalle, at the heart of the former cinema district.

Florida is one of the city's leading tourist attractions. Florida Street bustles with shoppers, vendors, and office workers alike because of its proximity to the financial district. By evening, the pace relaxes as street performers flock to the area, including tango singers and dancers, living statues, and comedy acts. Its variety of retail stores, shopping arcades, and restaurants is of great interest to foreign tourists and business travelers.

History

The beginnings of Florida Street date back to the founding of Buenos Aires in 1580, when it was hewn as a primitive path uphill from the banks of the Río de la Plata. Its first official name was "San José," enacted by Governor Miguel de Salcedo in 1734. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, the street was known popularly as Calle del Correo (Post Street) in reference to the post office located on what later became Perú Street (the southern continuation of Florida Street). It was also later known as Empedrado (Cobbled Street). Improved with boulders brought from Montevideo beginning in 1789, it became the first paved street in the city (a section of the original cobblestone pavement is displayed behind the entrance to the Cathedral Station on Diagonal Norte Avenue). Following the British invasions of the Río de la Plata in 1808, the street was called Baltasar Unquera, in homage to an aide-de-camp to Viceroy Santiago de Liniers, fallen in the fight against Admiral William Carr Beresford. The street was first named "Florida" in 1821. The name was designated in honor of the battle fought in 1814 in Upper Peru against the royalists during the Argentine War of Independence. Governor Juan Manuel de Rosas renamed the street "Perú" in 1837, and in 1857, the name was returned to the present one.

The Argentine National Anthem was first performed in 1813 at the Florida Street home of Mariquita Sánchez de Thompson, one of the city's most prominent citizens. Argentine elites began to leave the central and southern wards of the city mainly due to epidemics, especially the 1871 yellow fever outbreak. They decided to move to higher ground in the city and chose the area known as Retiro. Florida Street, whose northern half is in the Retiro ward, became a shopping street in 1872, and would soon welcome pharmacies, furniture retailers, jewelers, and haberdasheries that offered the latest in European fashion. Numerous private mansions were also built along Florida Street in the 1880s and 1890s. The Parisian-inspired Bon Marché became the street's first large-scale shopping arcade in 1889, and the Argentine Jockey Club, the nation's most prestigious gentlemen's club and horse racing society, was inaugurated in 1897.

The Civic Youth Union, was organized in 1889 at the intersection with the Avenida Córdoba. This organization would foment the Revolution of the Park in 1890, and from its ranks the Radical Civic Union (to whom six presidents would later belong during the twentieth century) would be established in 1891.

A tram was installed along Florida Street in the 1890s, and it soon became a leading commercial artery in Buenos Aires. Vehicular traffic was barred during business hours in 1911 by request of the growing number of shop owners along Florida, and in 1913 the tram was dismantled to pedestrianize a section of the street. The 1914 inaugural of the Gath & Chaves department store coincided with the inaugural of Harrods Buenos Aires, the only overseas branch of Harrods, and the illuminated spire topped Galería Güemes. The merger of Gath & Chaves and Harrods in 1922 created two of the most ornate institutions of their kind in the Americas. Florida Street also became the address for a number of important corporate headquarters during the 1920s, including BankBoston Argentina and La Nación, the nation's leading news daily at the time. Lavalle Street, which intersects Florida, became a focal point of local cinema houses beginning in the 1930s.

The city's middle and upper classes would later relocate further north, to Recoleta, Palermo, and Belgrano, however. This trend was reinforced by the 1953 arson of the grand Jockey Club building by a Peronist mob. Its decline, however, was slowed by both an era of relative prosperity in Argentina, as well as milestones such as the inaugural of the Hotel Claridge in 1946, the Torcuato di Tella Institute's Florida Street center in 1963 (which became a hub of Buenos Aires' avant-garde and pop art scene during the 1960s), and the 1971 conversion of the street into a promenade. Writer Jorge Luis Borges lived near the northern end, and was fond of taking walks through the semi-deserted street in the pre-dawn hours. Borges was an outspoken critic of the renovation work done on the street in 1970; he was blind, and the new arrangement of trash cans, planters, flower pots, and magazine stands was a serious accessibility risk for him. He was also influenced by his esthetic-minded friends, who saw the new scheme as a break with tradition.

The economic crisis of the 1980s precluded any recovery, however. Nor did the street benefit from a consumer boom during the 1990s, as this was largely diverted toward a series of new shopping malls opened in the city's north side. Galerías Pacífico was renovated and reopened in 1991, though Harrods Buenos Aires, which by then operated only on the ground floor, would close in 1998. Mayor Fernando de la Rúa had the textured concrete pavers along Florida replaced in 1999 with granite tiles laid in a decorative black-and-white pattern.

Commerce along the street was afflicted in the ensuing years by proliferating street vendors, a result of a legal loophole in the municipal ordinance that otherwise prohibits the practice; Mayor Mauricio Macri succeeded in having these vendors removed in January 2012. Florida Street continues to command among the highest commercial rents in the city, and has become a favorite attraction among the city's growing number of foreign tourists.

Rivadavia Avenue to Perón Street
Florida Street begins at its southern end on Rivadavia Avenue. The first block, made somewhat wider than the remainder of the promenade by a city ordinance, is overlooked by the Mappin & Webb House (1911) and the post-modern former headquarters of the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro in Argentina (1989); both became branches of HSBC upon BNL's departure in 2006.

One of the most iconic locations in Buenos Aires is the intersections of Florida Street and Diagonal Norte Avenue, built between 1913 and 1943. Two of the avenue's most distinguishable buildings are located at this intersection: the Plateresque BankBoston Building (1924), the Art Deco La Equitativa del Plata (1929), and two cupola-topped Bencich Buildings (1927). The intersection forms a triangular plaza adorned with José Fioravanti's monument to President Roque Sáenz Peña (1937).

Two important shopping arcades are located on the 100 block: Galerías Boston and the landmark Galería Güemes, designed by Francisco Gianotti and opened in 1914; distinguishable by the illuminated beacon atop its spire, it was one of the tallest buildings in Buenos Aires st the time. The former Gath & Chaves department store (1914) and annex (overlooking Avenida de Mayo) were located here until the retailer's closure in 1974; the buildings today house Banco Meridian, the local branch of Deloitte, as well as Chilean retailer Falabella.

Perón Street to Lavalle Street
The 200 block features the former Grand Florida Cinema (1925), created in an eclectic Art Deco design by Jorge Kálnay. The corner of Perón Street is overlooked by the Plateresque former Banco Popular Argentino (1931), today the headquarters of HSBC Bank Argentina. The corner of Sarmiento Street is the site of the Bank of the City of Buenos Aires headquarters since 1968, located in a building originally opened in 1908 as the Mexico City Store.

The 300 block includes the oldest existing bookstore of El Ateneo chain (one of two on Florida Street); founded in 1912, the booksellers opened their first Florida Street store in 1936. Facing El Ateneo is the former headquarters of La Nación newspaper. One of numerous Plateresque office buildings completed in the area during the 1920s, the building, known today as the Mitre Gallery, is the second store opened on Florida Street by Falabella. The corner of the intersection with Avenida Corrientes is overlooked by office high-rises, a Stock Center sporting goods megastore, and, for contrast, the former Elortondo Alvear residence (1880); the neo-Gothic mansion was converted into a Burger King in the 1990s.

The Julio Peña residence (1917), today the headquarters of the Argentine Rural Society, is one of the few private residences surviving from the time luxurious homes shared Florida Street with commercial establishments. Opened the same year, the Richmond Café next door was a favorite coffee house among local upscale patrons; Jorge Luis Borges, Graham Greene, and the Florida group of avant-garde writers were among the many literati who gathered there. The Richmond closed amid controversy in 2011. The 400 block ends at the intersection with Lavalle Street, and is overlooked by both curtain walled office mid-rises and French architecture. Lavalle Street, from the 1930s until the 1990s, rivaled Corrientes Avenue for the number of movie theaters along its downtown stretch; most have since closed, however, and Lavalle, which was pedestrianized in 1978, became largely a shopping street. The large numbers of pedestrians at the intersection between the two also made the intersection a forum for performances by street artists.

Lavalle Street to Córdoba Avenue
The 500 block was the site of the Jockey Club, designed by Manuel Turner and completed in 1897. Founded in 1882 by future President Carlos Pellegrini, the institution governed horse racing in Argentina, and built the Palermo and San Isidro racecourses. An incident on April 15, 1953, in which bombs were detonated at the Plaza de Mayo during one of President Juan Perón's many rallies, resulted in the destruction of the Beaux-Arts landmark by enraged Peronists, who viewed the aristocratic Jockey Club as a center of anti-Peronism. The lot lay empty until the construction of Galería Jardín (1976), an office and retail complex designed by Mario Roberto Álvarez in a belated International Style. The complex includes several levels of shops, a basement for offices and two high-rise towers, one of which is residential. Its retail section is known for its selection of consumer electronics and computer equipment.

An Art Deco office building on the northwest corner of Tucumán Street and the neo-classical Cadellada Building highlight the 600 block; a second El Ateneo bookshop, a third Falabella store, and the modern Galería Arax (site of the Buenos Aires Auditorium) are also located there.

The renowned Galerías Pacífico shopping arcade occupies nearly the entire block along the eastern side of the 700 block. The monumental building, designed by Roland le Vacher in 1888 to house the Au Bon Marché shops, also housed the National Museum of Fine Arts from 1896 to 1910, and thereafter the head office of the Buenos Aires and Pacific Railway; restored in 1991, its grand interiors also feature ceiling frescoes by Antonio Berni, Juan Carlos Castagnino, and other famed Argentine painters.

Córdoba Avenue to Plaza San Martín
The junction with Córdoba Avenue marks the street's entry into the Retiro ward. The northeast corner is distinguished by the magnificent Naval Center (1914), designed by Jacques Dunant and Gastón Mallet in a Beaux-Arts style. Separated from the Naval Center by Galería Buenos Aires is the former Harrods Buenos Aires, completed in 1920. Following a lengthy legal struggle with the then-owner of the Harrods on Knightsbridge, Mohamed Al-Fayed, the department store closed in 1998, and since functions intermittently as a venue for cultural events, notably the Buenos Aires Tango Festival. The current owners, Swiss equity firm CBC Interconfianz, filed permits to restore Harrods Buenos Aires in 2009. The modern Galería del Sol faces the former Harrods. Galería Florida (1964), a curtain-walled high rise designed by Álvarez for Air France, stands on the southwest corner with Paraguay Street, and the Florida Garden Café, opened in 1962 in a belle époque building, is on the southeast.

The Cultural Center of Spain in Buenos Aires (CCEB) is located on the 900 block. This block, however, is best known locally as the erstwhile site of the Torcuato di Tella Institute. Located on Florida Street during its heyday between 1963 and 1970, the institute was led at the time by former National Fine Arts Museum director Jorge Romero Brest, who steered the center as the leading Argentine venue for pop art, experimental theatre, and conceptual art, drawing artists such as León Ferrari, Gyula Kosice, Luis Felipe Noé, and Antonio Seguí. Romero Brest also promoted the center's famed Happenings, notably those of Marta Minujín, whose interactive displays and mazes helped make this block of Florida Street Buenos Aires' mazana loca (city block of madness).

The street continues into the Juvenilia Esplanade, centered around a memorial to writer Esteban Echeverría, and overlooked by a French-inspired apartment building designed by Alejandro Bustillo. The Ruth Benzacar Gallery, another leading promoter of local avant-garde art, opened in 1965 and is also located here. Facing the esplanade is Plaza San Martín, designed by the noted urbanist Charles Thays in 1889. Upscale Santa Fe Avenue merges into Florida Street along the Plaza Hotel, designed by Adolf Zucker for local banker Ernesto Tornquist and inaugurated in 1909.

Florida Street becomes San Martín Street one block south of Avenida del Libertador, and beside the best known of Buenos Aires' Art Deco landmarks, the Kavanagh Building. Overlooking Plaza San Martín, the 120 m (390 ft) apartment building was designed in 1934 by the firm of Sánchez, Lagos and de la Tour for Corina Kavanagh. Local lore has it that the wealthy Irish Argentine heiress planned the high-rise as a revenge against the Anchorena family, and made but one demand of the architects: that views of the Anchorenas' Church of the Holy Sacrament from their residence, the San Martín Palace, be blocked.

Transportation
The preferable means of transportation to reach Florida Street from almost anywhere in the city, is the Buenos Aires Metro (subte, or underground). Five metro lines have stations within a short walking distance of Florida. Most bus lines reaching the downtown area have stops near Florida Street, as well.

Florida Station

Catedral Station

The Retiro transportation hub, which maintains a terminal for long-distance buses and a railway station for three major lines, is located near the northern end of Florida, across Avenida del Libertador. Line C of the metro provides access to both Retiro and Constitución Stations.

title: Florida Street


text:
Saccard

Saccard is a fictional character created by Émile Zola in his 20-novel cycle Les Rougon-Macquart. Saccard (a pseudonym of the character Aristide Rougon) is the central figure in the novels La Curée (1872) and L'Argent (1891), and features in a number of other books in the cycle. A ruthless and greedy financier, his name is still used in France as a byword for corporate or plutocratic figures driven by lust for money.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Saccard


text:
Wikipedia:Do not use subpages

One of Wikipedia's rules to consider:

Subpages are pages separated with a "/" (a forward slash) from the main page, e.g. "The Beatles/Penny Lane". The main advantage of subpages is that they make it easy to group related topics together without having to establish context for each of them. However, this is also one of their core problems. Subpages tend to get neglected and not follow style guidelines, and there are often far more subpages for a particular article than necessary. Many of the problems with subpages are specific to an encyclopedia, and subpages may work perfectly for other wikis.

Subpages were used on Wikipedia during most of 2001. A long debate then took place over whether they should or should not continue to be used. Larry Sanger, then editor of Wikipedia, took the position that they should be removed entirely. He wrote: "I think we've discussed subpages quite a bit--certainly enough to air the issues and give people a chance to state their views and change their minds--and in view of this, I've decided to get rid of them. (...) Finally, and probably as importantly as anything else, my well considered opinion is that the arguments in favor of getting rid of them are much, much stronger than the arguments in favor of keeping them. I predict yer gonna thank me in a year.  (Maybe not all of you. :-) )"

His prediction turned out to be true, as subpages were then increasingly weeded out and replaced with redirects to standard article titles or deleted entirely. Many Wikipedians now have a strong aversion against subpages, so please do not be surprised if you see comments like "AAAHHHHHH SUBPAGE!!!! KILL KILL KILL" in the recent changes comments. However, due to inertia, some subpages still linger on Wikipedia, and new ones are occasionally created.

When you come across a subpage in the main article space, please move it to an appropriate title, e.g. "The Beatles/Penny Lane" to "Penny Lane" or "Penny Lane (Beatles)" if disambiguation is necessary. Do not forget to establish context. A page with hundreds of subpages (like the old Atlas Shrugged) may need more reorganization and summarization of different subpages into individual articles.

'''There are two exceptions for this rule. See Subpages in the user and talk namespaces.'''

Arguments regarding subpages
The discussion below is primarily preserved here for historical purposes, as the decision against subpages in the article namespace is, for the most part, final.

Pro subpages

Ease of linking related data together
 * Helps link together related data: subpages can be used to divide an otherwise long article into sections; so can ordinary pages, but with subpages, the sections are connected automatically by being subpages. An unnamed online encyclopedia uses subpages for this purpose.
 * Subpages can also be used to facilitate linking to individual sections and between sections.
 * Subpages can also be used to create automatic links from the child to the parent and from a parent to the list of children; these links, appearing in a linkbar or other special place on a page, stand out and provide a useful, yet non-obtrusive, reminder to the reader of what "main" connections of the current page, in some useful sense of the word.
 * Can rename entire set of pages just by renaming main page.

Other advantages
 * Provides a useful home for data that wouldn't make sense on its own: subpages can be used to store small or large amounts of data about a subject that could be useful but would clutter the main page about that subject.
 * Similarly to the foregoing, subpages can be used to create small sub-articles that are puzzling as stand-alone encyclopedia articles, but which make sense qua encyclopedia articles as subpages of a main article
 * Established habit: they're known and used in the Wikipedia community, removing subpages might cause confusion among those who have used them and who have not practiced writing pages without them
 * Makes for concise titles: subpages convey the most information most concisely: for instance Algeria/Government vs. Government of Algeria or Algerian government
 * Useful for fictional universes and some other topics: subpages are particularly useful for collections of articles that have complex interrelations but very few if any relationships to topics outside the collection. For example Dungeons and Dragons and Lord of the Rings; perhaps poker.
 * Can be used to create standardised organisation of the same kind of relationship; for a trivial but by no means exhaustive example, consider " X/Childhood " in a biographical article versus competing schemes "Childhood of X" and "X's Childhood" creating confusion and unnecessary complication. (It seems however that all three schemes are equally arbitrary and one could standardize on either one.)
 * Autogenerating subpage lists: a nice feature would be to autogenerate a list of links to subpages on each page that has them. We haven't done this yet, but it would be nice. (It's in the PHP script; try )
 * Can be used to separate out meta-pages from the contents of the encyclopedia proper (superseded by namespaces)

Contra subpages

Hierarchy problems
 * Decisions on when or where to create subpages at all is necessarily arbitrary: every encyclopedia topic can be regarded as a subtopic of another encyclopedia topic. There is no good reason for us to regard some topics as subtopics of other topics when all encyclopedia topics can be so regarded.
 * The particular choice of a subpage hierarchy is arbitrary: Algeria/History might be used when History/Algeria would be as just as appropriate; both Film editing/Star wipe and Digital effects/Star wipe refer to the same thing and would be equally appropriate. There's no clear principles on which to make the decision, and the decision does have consequences.
 * Arbitrary subpage-imposed hierarchies arbitrarily contextualize information and thereby influence how articles are written: as one result of the foregoing, the small arbitrary hierarchy created by a parent page and its subpages quite often forces how we write content. Why should the people writing about star wipes be forced to consider them in the context of film editing as opposed to digital effects?  If we write about the history of Algeria under Algeria/History, we'll consider Algeria's history as one element of Algeria's existence.  If we write about the same subject under History/Algeria, we'll consider Algeria's history as one element of history.  There is no good reason to impose this sort of constraint upon Wikipedia's writers, particularly when it is arbitrary.  It simplifies the situation greatly to let each topic determine its own context, as it were.
 * Hard-wiring a conceptual scheme is imprecise; letting internal links do the work is more accurate: it seems much better to let links internal to the articles specify (in all the complex detail required) the conceptual relationships between articles, rather than "hard-wiring" them with a single very vague slash.
 * Single-level hierarchy is unjustified: subpages allow us to impose some conceptual structure or hierarchy on topics--but only one level of hierarchy. This is conceptually unappealing. Shouldn't it be either all or none? Look at it this way: suppose we create Foo/Bar and we're writing on the /Bar subpage.  Then we discover a subsubtopic we want to create.  What do we do then--just create a brand new top level page, apparently, for the subsubtopic.  But then why do we have /Bar on a subpage in the first place?  Doesn't make sense.  This sort of thing could very easily happen in any area of human knowledge that is highly structured and "hierarchical," such as math, philosophy, and even history (there are many historical details of historical details).

Subpages replace the English meaning of the slash with a special meaning
 * The slash has no clear meaning and is therefore confusing in an article title: the slash creates a completely ambiguous relationship between the subject to the left of the slash and the subject to the right of the slash. For example, we could make "A" a subpage of "Countries of the world"; then, the list of pages under "A" would be the set of the countries of the world whose names in English begin with the letter "A." We could also make "Pearl Harbor" a subtopic of "World War II," and the relationship here is that Pearl Harbor is the-location-of-an-important-attack-in World War II. We could make "David Hume" a subtopic of "Philosopher" because Hume is a philosopher.  Etc.  Other punctuation has clear meaning.  Wiki's slash does not.  Therefore, it is better, for clarity, to eliminate the slash and replace it with English.
 * The slash has an ordinary meaning that subpages co-opt: giving the slash a special meaning within wiki co-opts its occasional ordinary use within English. Accordingly it sometimes creates "parent" pages that shouldn't exist, such as "8 1" in the title "8 1/2" or "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" or "Face" in the movie title "Face/Off".
 * Subpages are often written so as to require the contextualization of the main page, and new users often don't understand this: since the meaning of the slash in the context of this wiki is particularly unclear to new users, the meaning of a title of a subpage located by the search script or Google may be incomprehensible to the unsavvy user. In particular, they don't realize that the context is provided by the parent page, whose existence they are not aware of.  They might not realize that the purpose or meaning of the subpage is given on the main page.

Other problems
 * Subpages don't facilitate accidental linking: one never says for instance "I think Paul McCartney is an accomplished Guitar/Bass player." It is preferable, in the context of Wikipedia, to have page titles that can also be used in grammatical English sentences.  Moreover, subpaging requires new users to learn arbitrary, idiosyncratic hierarchies, which could in many cases be avoided without subpages.  To use the same example, bass guitar is easy to guess; guitar/bass is not.  Violin is easy to guess; string instrument/violin is not.
 * Talk pages hard: it's hard to make talk pages for subpages (you have to munge it by making the word "talk" part of the name of the subpage).
 * Subpage titles are ugly: subpage titles are typically ugly--they employ nonstandard punctuation (the slash), for one thing. Their ugliness is probably just a straightforward implication of the fact that the slash is not used with any special meaning, though.  It's also worth noting that no other encyclopedia uses slashes in their article titles, which might make Wikipedia's subpage titles even more offputting on aesthetic grounds.
 * One main motivation behind subpage use, disambiguation, will soon disappear: as soon as we've finalized Magnus Manske's code, we will be able to use parentheses in titles. This will make it possible to avoid such appalling monstrosities as "Love/Band", replacing them with Love (band) or something similar. (now done)
 * Other motivations disappearing as well: some of the current uses of subpages ( /Talk and commentary) will be available in the PHP wiki even without the subpage feature, using "name spaces". (now done)

Other things to consider

 * The switch to the PHP wiki is a logical place to get rid of subpages. If we put it off, it will become increasingly difficult to do so.

Related topics

 * Accidental linking and hard-wired category schemes
 * Case against subpages
 * Get rid of subpages entirely
 * Mysterious wikipedia user subpages
 * Subpages in the user and talk namespaces
 * Subpages to be moved
 * Why I am suspicious of subpages

title: Wikipedia:Do not use subpages


text: User talk:81.128.57.66

title: User talk:81.128.57.66


text:
Talk:Gordian I

What does this line mean?
"During the reign of Alexander Severus, Gordian (who was by then in his late seventies) threw the lots to the dangerous honours of government in Africa."? --AW 15:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyone? --AW (talk) 23:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect it should read "drew the lots for the dangerous honours of government in Africa." During the Principate, unlike the imperial provinces which had governors appointed by the emperor, the senatorial provinces were allocated governors through the drawing of lots. Of course, I am confused just why the proconsular governorship of Africa was described as a dangerous honor - it was only dangerous to Gordian I because he rebelled against Maximinus Thrax. I shall correct this in the next few days, when I put together appropriate sources and citations for Gordian I. Oatley2112 (talk) 10:47, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Rome under Mark Antony's daughters
"...received Roman citizenship under the triumvir Mark Antony, or one of his daughters"

So one of Mark Antony's daughters ruled Rome? Interesting! 2A02:AA1:104D:1981:3DD8:A176:D71A:B9DA (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You do not need to rule Rome to grant Roman citizenship. Ancient Roman freedmen after manumission gained political rights and often assumed the family name of their previous owner. Dimadick (talk) 08:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gordian I


text:
Talk:Gordian II

Successor of Alexander?
The side bar says that he was the successor of Alexander Severus. Is there a reason that it isn't Maximinus Thrax? Molinari (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The sidebar is wrong - it should be Maximinus Thrax. Oatley2112 (talk) 09:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Who's daughters
This line doesn't make sense

His praenomen and nomen Marcus Antonius suggest that his paternal ancestors received Roman citizenship under the Triumvir Mark Antony, or one of his daughters, during the late Roman Republic.

unless it means citizenship might have been conferred by a daughter of Mark Anthony or during the triumvirate of a daughter of Mark Anthony. --Peter Grey (talk) 15:56, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Gordian II


text:
Cartoon physics

Cartoon physics or animation physics are terms for a jocular system of laws of physics (and biology) that supersedes the normal laws, used in animation for humorous effect.

Many of the most famous American animated films, particularly those from Warner Bros. and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer studios, indirectly developed a relatively consistent set of such "laws" which have become de rigueur in comic animation. They usually involve things behaving in accordance with how they appear to the cartoon characters, or what the characters expect, rather than how they objectively are. In one common example, when a cartoon character runs off a cliff, gravity has no effect until the character notices.

In words attributed to Art Babbitt, an animator with the Walt Disney Studios: "Animation follows the laws of physics—unless it is funnier otherwise."

Examples
Specific reference to cartoon physics extends back at least to June 1980, when an article "O'Donnell's Laws of Cartoon Motion" appeared in Esquire. A version printed in V.18 No. 7 p. 12, 1994 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers in its journal helped spread the word among the technical crowd, which has expanded and refined the idea.

O'Donnell's examples include:

 * Any body suspended in space will remain suspended in space until made aware of its situation. A character steps off a cliff but remains in midair until looking down, then the familiar principle of 32 feet per second squared takes over.
 * A body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage.
 * The time required for an object to fall 20 stories is greater than or equal to the time it takes for whoever knocked it off the ledge to spiral down 20 flights to attempt to capture it unbroken. Such an object is inevitably priceless; the attempt to capture it, inevitably unsuccessful.
 * All principles of gravity are negated by fear.
 * Psychic forces are sufficient in most bodies for a shock to propel them directly away from the surface. A spooky noise or an adversary's signature sound will introduce motion upward, usually to the cradle of a chandelier, a treetop or the crest of a flagpole.
 * The feet of a running character or the wheels of a speeding auto need never touch the ground, ergo fleeing turns to flight.
 * As speed increases, objects can be in several places at once.
 * Certain bodies can pass through a solid wall painted to resemble tunnel entrances; others cannot. ... Whoever paints an entrance on a wall's surface to trick an opponent will be unable to pursue him into this theoretical space. The painter is flattened against the wall when he attempts to follow into the painting. This is ultimately a problem of art, not science.
 * Any violent rearrangement of feline matter is impermanent. Cartoon cats can be sliced, splayed, accordion-pleated, spindled or disassembled, but they cannot be destroyed. After a few moments of blinking self-pity, they reinflate, elongate, snap back or solidify.

History of the idea
The idea that cartoons behave differently from the real world, but not randomly, is virtually as old as animation. Walt Disney, for example, spoke of the plausible impossible in 1956 on an episode of the Disneyland television program.

Warner Brothers' Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies series had numerous examples of their own cartoon physics (such as in the Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner cartoons) or even acknowledged they ignore real world physics. In High Diving Hare (1948), when Yosemite Sam cuts through a high diving board Bugs Bunny is standing on, the ladder and platform that Sam is on falls, leaving the cut plank suspended in mid-air. Bugs turns to the camera and cracks: "I know this defies the law of gravity, but, you see, I never studied law!"

After being seen on the big screen, it was soon taken down to the small screen through many shows from Hanna-Barbera. Where Yogi Bear and Boo Boo and the rest of the anthropomorphic animals had used it multiple times.

The animated television series Tiny Toon Adventures had an episode dedicated to it "Toon Physics," in which Orson Whales teaches how it differs from actual science.

More recently, it has been explicitly described by some cartoon characters, including Roger Rabbit, Bonkers D. Bobcat, and Yakko, Wakko, and Dot, who say that toons are allowed to bend or break natural laws for the purposes of comedy. Doing this is extremely tricky, so toons have a natural sense of comedic timing, giving them inherently funny properties.

In Who Framed Roger Rabbit, for example, Roger is unable to escape handcuffs for most of a sequence, doing so only to use both hands to hold the table still while Eddie Valiant attempts to saw the cuff off. When Eddie asks, exasperated, "Do you mean to tell me you could've taken your hand out of that cuff at any time?!" Roger responds: "Not at any time! Only when it was funny!" Several aspects of cartoon physics were discussed in the film's dialogue, and the concept was a minor plot theme.

In 1993, Stephen R. Gould, then a financial training consultant, writing in New Scientist, said that "... these seemingly nonsensical phenomena can be described by logical laws similar to those in our world. Nonsensical events are by no means limited to the Looniverse. Laws that govern our own Universe often seem contrary to common sense." This theme is described by Alan Cholodenko in his article, "The Nutty Universe of Animation".

In a Garfield animated short entitled "Secrets of the Animated Cartoon", the characters Orson and Wade give demonstrations of different laws of the cartoons and show humorous examples of them.

In 2012 O'Donnell's Laws of Cartoon Motion were used as the basis for a presentation and exhibition by Andy Holden at Kingston University in Great Britain. Titled 'Laws of Motion in a Cartoon Landscape' it explored ideas of cartoon physics in relation to art and the end of art history. This was later made into a film with the artist as an animated cartoon character and shown at Glasgow International Festival in 2016, Tate Britain in 2017, and Future Generation Art Prize at Venice Biennale in 2017.

Non-exclusivity
Cartoon physics is not limited to physics: For example, when a character recovers impossibly fast from a serious injury, the laws of biology rather than physics are being altered.

It is also not limited to cartoons; in live-action, the physics-defying stunts would fall under the umbrella of slapstick. Live-action shows and movies can also be subject to the laws of cartoon physics explaining why, for example, The Three Stooges did not go blind from all the eye-poking, and the burglars in the Home Alone series survive life-threatening booby traps. In the live-action Pete's Dragon (1977), the titular Elliot, while invisible, bursts through a wooden wall, leaving a dragon-shaped "silhouette of passage". The Ernest P. Worrell film series often made note of the title character's cartoon-like traits, with Ernest himself remarking in Ernest Rides Again that he would be dead "if I wasn't this close to being an actual cartoon."

In a review of one of the Home Alone films, film critic Roger Ebert noted that in the case of live-action productions, cartoon physics are not as effective at producing a comic effect, as the effects seem more realistic:

"Most of the live-action attempts to duplicate animation have failed, because when flesh-and-blood figures hit the pavement, we can almost hear the bones crunch, and it isn't funny."

Printed cartoons have their own family of cartoon physics "laws" and conventions. Additionally, some video games utilize these elements during their cutscenes. For example, in the game Sonic Unleashed, titular character Sonic the Hedgehog is seen making effective use of hammerspace to stash a Chaos Emerald.

The concept can be used as a metaphor outside video. In an editorial for the New York Times in 2003 titled Don't Look Down, for example economist Paul Krugman wrote this while describing a gap between revenue and spending: "The crisis won't come immediately. For a few years, America will still be able to borrow freely, simply because lenders assume that things will somehow work out...But at a certain point we'll have a Wile E. Coyote moment. For those not familiar with the Road Runner cartoons, Mr. Coyote had a habit of running off cliffs and taking several steps on thin air before noticing that there was nothing underneath his feet. Only then would he plunge. What will that plunge look like?"

Other

 * Kent Pitman's Theory of RelativeTV (Soap Opera Physics)

title: Cartoon physics


text:
Patti Scialfa

Vivienne Patricia Scialfa (born July 29, 1953) is an American singer-songwriter and guitarist. Scialfa has been a member of the E Street Band since 1984 and has been married to Bruce Springsteen since 1991. In 2014, Scialfa was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a member of the E Street Band.

Early life and education
Scialfa grew up in Deal, New Jersey on the Jersey Shore. She was the middle child of Joseph Scialfa and Patricia (née Morris) Scialfa. Her father was of Sicilian ancestry and her mother is from Belfast, Northern Ireland. She also has half-siblings from her father's second marriage. Her father was a successful local entrepreneur, who started a television store and became a real estate developer. Scialfa began writing songs at an early age.

Asbury Park High School
She attended Asbury Park High School, where she graduated in 1971. Following high school, she first began working as a back-up singer for New Jersey bar bands.

University of Miami and New York University
She began college at the University of Miami's jazz conservatory at the Frost School of Music, and later transferred to New York University, where she earned an undergraduate degree in music.

In 1994, she told Lear's Magazine that she had little talent for anything but music and that she attended college as a way to further her ambitions as a performer while also satisfying parental expectations.

Career
While in college at the University of Miami and later at New York University, Scialfa began recording original music for other artists. However, none of her songs were recorded.

After her college graduation, she worked as a busker and waitress in Greenwich Village. Together with Soozie Tyrell and Lisa Lowell, she formed a street group known as Trickster. For many years, she struggled to make her way in the songwriting and recording industry in New York City and New Jersey before playing at Folk City and Kenny's Castaways in Greenwich Village and The Stone Pony in Asbury Park, New Jersey. Scialfa had a brief role in The Stone Pony's house band Cats on a Smooth Surface. These gigs won her notice and, eventually, recording work with Southside Johnny and David Johansen.

In 1984, Scialfa joined the E Street Band, three or four days before the opening show of the Born in the U.S.A. Tour. In 1986, she appeared on the Rolling Stones' Dirty Work album, leaving her vocal mark on "One Hit (To the Body)" as well as other tracks. She worked with Keith Richards on his first solo album Talk is Cheap. Steve Jordan, who co-produced the Richards record, was a friend of Scialfa's from her Greenwich Village days.

Scialfa's music industry friendships with Soozie Tyrell and Lisa Lowell are long-standing, pre-dating their mutual work as background vocalists and musicians on the 1987 Buster Poindexter album, featuring a Soca song by Arrow, "Hot Hot Hot". Lowell and Tyrell have since worked on various Springsteen-Scialfa recording projects and Tyrell, a violinist, has recorded and toured with Springsteen and the E Street Band.

Scialfa has recorded three solo albums, 1993's Rumble Doll, 2004's 23rd Street Lullaby and 2007's Play It As It Lays. Her first two albums received four-star reviews from Rolling Stone, while the third received three and a half stars. Her records are a mix of confessional songwriting, impressive vocal range, and traditional country, folk and rock music. Springsteen and fellow E Street bandmates, like Nils Lofgren and Roy Bittan, have contributed to her albums. Following the release of Scialfa's second album, she played a series of club dates on the East Coast and was the opening act of the post-final night of the Vote for Change tour.

In 2009 and again in 2011, Scialfa confirmed that she had written most of the songs for her fourth album and was trying to find the time to record it.

Personal life
Scialfa first met Bruce Springsteen in the early 1980s at The Stone Pony, a music venue and bar in Asbury Park, New Jersey, where Springsteen and his band regularly played. In 1984, Scialfa postponed recording her solo record to join Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. Tour. After the tour, Scialfa started a short-term relationship with actor Tom Cruise.

In August 1988, Springsteen's first wife Julianne Phillips filed for divorce, and Scialfa and Springsteen started living together afterward in New Jersey and later in New York City before relocating to Los Angeles, where they started a family. Springsteen and Phillips's divorce was finalized in 1989.

On July 25, 1990, Scialfa gave birth to the couple's first child, Evan James Springsteen. Scialfa and Springsteen married on June 8, 1991, at their Los Angeles home in a ceremony attended by family and close friends. Their second child, Jessica Rae Springsteen, was born December 30, 1991, and their third child, Samuel Ryan Springsteen, was born January 5, 1994. The family returned to New Jersey in the early 1990s and now lives in Colts Neck, New Jersey. They also own homes in Wellington, Florida, near West Palm Beach, and Los Angeles.

On July 17, 2022, Scialfa and Springsteen became first time grandparents with the birth of their granddaughter Lily Harper Springsteen, daughter of their son Sam.

Discography

 * Rumble Doll (1993)
 * 23rd Street Lullaby (2004) – (#152, US Billboard 200)
 * Play It As It Lays (2007) – (#90, US Billboard 200)
 * Contributed a song called "Children's Song" to the charity album Every Mother Counts, the song is a duet with her husband, Bruce Springsteen (2011)'''
 * "Linda Paloma" (from the album Looking into You: A Tribute To Jackson Browne), a duet with Bruce Springsteen (2014).

title: Patti Scialfa


text:
Harvey Mudd

Harvey Mudd may refer to:

 * Harvey Seeley Mudd (1888–1955), a mining engineer and businessman
 * Harvey Mudd College, college named after Harvey Seeley Mudd

title: Harvey Mudd


text:
Talk:De Beers

Infobox problem
I'm not sure if anyone else is having this problem, but the infoboxes at the top of the article are doing bad things. There are multiple solutions for this, but I don't know enough about templates to make appropriate suggestions. superlusertc 2007 August 24, 09:26 (UTC)

External links modified
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Jewish
What is the point of mentioning that Oppenheimer was Jewish? Neither religion nor ethnicity of any other player in the De Beers saga is mentioned. How do we explain this? Why is it noteworthy? Ordinarily I fully understand the motivation of those identifying someone as Jewish out of context. I think the same is true here. Removed. Paul Beardsell (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Prison Labour
The article does not mention the convict labour used by de beers, starting in 1884. I checked the archived discussion, and saw some mention of it. As far as I can understand it was taken down, most probably due to the questionable 10000 number. I think it is an important topic to be mentioned hence I found a trustworthy publication on the topic: "Convict labour, industrialists and the state in the US South and South Africa, 1870–1930" William H. Worger 2006 Journal of Southern African Studies Vol 30, Pages 63-86. https://doi.org/10.1080/0305707042000223942 Relevant part from the paper: "At much the same time that corporations in Alabama were largely monopolising the use of state and county prisoners for work in Birmingham mines, Cecil Rhodes was achieving an even tighter monopoly in the Cape Colony. During 1884 and 1885, using prison workers provided free of charge by the colonial administration, De Beers Consolidated Mines constructed a private prison large enough to house 300 inmates. Rhodes entered into negotiations with the Cape Colony government (of which he was an elected member) to secure ‘from time to time ... such able-bodied long sentenced native prisoners as they [De Beers] may require’. Agreement was reached on a two-year contract at the beginning of 1886. De Beers would be supplied with as many convicts as the company could accommodate so long as the number did not exceed 300, all to be chosen from African males whose sentences still had at least three months to run upon incarceration in the station. The company would not have to pay any fee for the convicts, but would have to bear all the costs of maintenance and surveillance. The civil commissioner for Kimberley (the senior civil servant), E. A. Judge, considered the contract of benefit to all involved. The prisoners would be ‘better housed, better fed, and better clad’ than the inmates of the Kimberley jail, De Beers would get reliable employees whose persons could be thoroughly searched to ensure that no diamonds were stolen, and the government would save ‘the expense of some 220 prisoners’, which was the average number incarcerated in the convict station during the first six months of 1886. With the contract signed on 1 January, the convict station opened immediately thereafter. The number of incarcerated rose steadily, averaging closer to 300 in 1887 and rising higher thereafter when De Beers entered into a new two-year contract in 1888 for an average of up to 400 convicts at any one time. Periodic renewals of the contract led to even greater increases in inmates with the daily average reaching over 1,000 by the late 1890s."

The references presented for this paragraph are from first-hand sources i.e. "the Memorandum of Agreement between De Beers and the colonial government" and the "superintendent reports of the De Beers Convict Station." I wanted to put the details here before editing because I am a non-user and there might be other considerations. But I honestly believe that there should be a section about this also using other sources which exist in the form of books. e.g. Stones of Contention: A History of Africa’s Diamonds, Todd Cleveland; South Africa's City of Diamonds: Mine Workers and Monopoly Capitalism in Kimberley, 1867-1895, William H. Worger 85.53.252.8 (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Diamonds cutting
Sky laser process Bhavesh Dobariya Surat. India 103.251.59.78 (talk) 10:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:De Beers


text:
User:Goatherd

Wikipedia is a great project, but I find it a bit distracting. I worry that it's taking too much time from my other distractions.

title: User:Goatherd


text:
Global Underground: Live in Oslo

Global Underground 004: Paul Oakenfold, Live in Oslo is a double mix CD in the Global Underground series, compiled and mixed by Paul Oakenfold. The mix was recorded live at Cosmopolite Club in Oslo, Norway, as part of the official launch of the Quart Festival. It showcases Paul Oakenfold's eclectic taste in music at the time, as the mix combines drum and bass, progressive house & trance, trance, and goa trance.

The CD was released on Boxed Records with the catalogue number GU004CD (GU004CDX for the limited edition transparent PVC case) in 1997.

Disc one

 * 1) "Artemis" - "Elysian Fields" – 8:33
 * 2) "Omni Trio" - "Tripping on Broken Beats (Carlito Mix)" – 5:20
 * 3) "JMJ & Richie" - "Beyond Therapy" – 3:52
 * 4) "Alaska" - "Alaska" – 3:27
 * 5) "Jamie Myerson" - "Music for the Lonely" – 4:51
 * 6) "Olive" - "You're Not Alone (Perfecto Mix)" – 2:52
 * 7) "LTJ Bukem"" - "Music" (Peshay Rework) – 5:35
 * 8) "Bedrock" - "Set in Stone" – 10:34
 * 9) "Lil Mo Ying Yang" - "Reach (Basement Jaxx Firecracker Mix)" – 5:30
 * 10) "K"-Lab - "In The Lab" – 5:44
 * 11) "Disco Droids" - "Interspace (Original Tremolo Mix)" – 6:42
 * 12) "Chapel of Rest" - "Last Prayer" – 7:28

Disc two

 * 1) Bedrock - "Forbidden Zone" – 8:32
 * 2) Cruzeman - "Ohm Sessions" – 8:38
 * 3) Atlantic Ocean - "Cycles of Life" – 3:52
 * 4) Taucher - "Waters" – 5:33
 * 5) Shades of Blue - "So Much" – 9:05
 * 6) The Freak & Mac Zimms - "Submission" – 4:59
 * 7) Astral Projection - "Ionised" – 6:37
 * 8) Eve - "Trance in Saigon" – 6:24
 * 9) Joking Sphinx - "Course Poursuite" – 5:04
 * 10) Eve - "Rhapsody in Venice" – 7:24

title: Global Underground: Live in Oslo


text:
Zond

Zond may refer to

 * Zond program, Soviet uncrewed space program undertaken from 1964 to 1970
 * Zond 1, spacecraft
 * Zond 2, spacecraft
 * Zond 3, spacecraft
 * Zond 4, spacecraft
 * Zond 5, spacecraft
 * Zond 3MV-1 No.2, spacecraft
 * Zond 7, spacecraft
 * Zond 8, spacecraft
 * Zond 1964A, spacecraft
 * Zond 1967A, spacecraft
 * Zond 1967B, spacecraft
 * Zond Corporation, wind turbine developer
 * "Zond", a song by Pond from the 2015 album Man It Feels Like Space Again

title: Zond


text:
Talk:Aladdin (1992 Disney film)

Picasso
"sending him a Pablo Picasso painting... the painting was a self-portrait of the artist as Vincent van Gogh"

How can a painting by Picasso be a self portrait of Vincent van Gogh?71.13.26.7 (talk) 22:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

 * I was wondering the same thing. Frankly, this whole section was confusing to me because I don't spend any time trying to understand the entertainment industry's politics but it's written like a lot of things are supposed to be understood.  When I got to the line you just pointed out I thought, "OK, 'Uncle', I'm not smart enough to understand any of this." Thisisfutile (talk) 18:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

synopsis
October 22nd 2018 by a wiki newb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.149.230.174 (talk) 02:42, 22 October 2018 (UTC) The intro states "The film follows Aladdin, an Arabian street urchin, who finds a magic lamp containing a genie. In order to hide the lamp from the Grand vizier, he disguises himself as a wealthy prince, and tries to impress the Sultan and his daughter." however his return to Agrabah has nothing to do with hiding from Jafar, only impressing the princess. The Grand Vizier should be mentioned in the finding of the lamp, not what Aladdin does with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.149.230.174 (talk) 02:40, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

genre
This film is a comedy. Why not add it? --97.113.114.127 (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2017 (UTC)Evan Kalani Opedal

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"River Jordan" line
I have Line Cinema_film)&diff=884196539&oldid=884171032 restored the "citation needed" tag to the point about Agrabah being near the River Jordan. We never see any river in the film. The only evidence I've seen presented is the Peddler's comment that he has "the finest merchandise this side of" the river. This is not saying the city is near the river; it's an expression like "greatest thing since sliced bread", a way of talking up the subject by emphasizing how many things it's better than. Indeed, if anything, the Peddler's comment implies that Agrabah is far from the river, since that would provide a wider region of merchandise for comparison.

I'm tagging the statement rather than removing it again, in case there's some other justification for having it there. If not, though, it should be removed. Lagrange613 03:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you're overcomplicating things a bit here. I've never heard of an expression like that before. The dialogue in the film should be cited as it is. Also, various reliable sources and media outlets use this -- . Musicfan122 (talk) 04:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 * For "an expression like that" see the Wiktionary link above. The dialogue in the film does not support the claim in the article, as explained. I suspect those sources found this erroneous "fact" on Wikipedia and propagated it. There are positive reasons aplenty to doubt this idea: the location was supposed to be Baghdad, nowhere near the Jordan River, but the name was swapped with a pseudoanagram after the Gulf War. Also, the topography is all wrong. And, not for nothing, it adds nothing to the article. But whatever, this is beneath edit warring. Lagrange613 06:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The phrase was Picture.CO.UK_film)&diff=863962158&oldid=863949859 added by in October 2018. By looking at the article's history, it seems that it wasn't there before that, and all the sources date prior to the addition, thus I doubt that it was propagated. Musicfan122 (talk) 04:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2019
Change "Arabic folktale same name" to "Arabic folktale of the same name". 51.77.109.132 (talk) 12:14, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done aboideautalk 12:29, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Aladdin 1992 poster.jpg

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2021
2001:5B0:4FC1:5428:D8E1:C625:714:7253 (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Move-protection-shackle.svg Not done: page move requests should be made at Requested moves.  TG HL ↗  🍁 03:04, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

"last film based on folklore"
The article has the sentence "Aladdin was also the last film by Disney to be entirely based on a fairytale or folklore until the release of Tangled (based on Rapunzel) in 2010, 17 years later." This doesn't seem right though - Mulan (Hua Mulan) and Hercules (Heracles) are definitely based on folklore, and Chicken Little is based on a fairy tale (Henny Penny). Smurrayinchester 13:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Release Dates
Hello, Wikipedians, there is a slight problem about the release date on the article. The info box and one of the main sections of the article had the release date as "November 11", but it is most likely the limited release for the film. I would like the official "November 25" release date to actually be sourced reliably (besides the Box Office Mojo source), and another one for that "November 11" date to specifify the two locations the film had a limited release date (IMDb has the limited release to specifify that it held in both Los Angeles and New York City, but it is an unreliable source). These are the tasks that needed to be settled and finished. Thank you, and thanks for reading - Truly yours, Aubreeprincess (talk) 16:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:FILMRELEASE we only need to list the first date it was released anywhere at all and the first release date in the country of origin. Those are both the limited release as shown in the infobox sourced by "The Numbers" reference and BOM.  gives a fairly complete and sufficiently sourced description of what happened, when, and why. It matches what you stated above. We don't need to list the wide release date in the infobox, the initial release date is all that is needed there. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 27 September 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 16:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Aladdin (1992 Disney film) → Aladdin (1992 film) – Clear WP:PRIMARYPDAB from Aladdin (1992 Golden Films film) (a ~76:1 pageview ratio with the Golden Films film). JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 01:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Yes, per PRIMARYDAB which applies to partial dabs too. --В²C ☎ 05:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose as textbook violation of WP:PFILM. The film project has a special project-specific guideline (as permitted by WP:PRECISION) which prohibits the use of partial disambiguation for film articles. There are no exceptions no matter how high-profile a film is. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thankfully, WP:IAR (policy) trumps poorly-conceived guidelines like WP:PFILM, and allows for exceptions like this. —-В²C ☎ 11:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * IAR is not a free pass for you to wave every time you Don't like a guideline or think it is "poorly-conceived [sic]". InfiniteNexus (talk) 14:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The dis-ambiguation suffix "1992 film" implies it needs dis-ambiguation from a film titled Aladdin that was released in a different year. Georgia guy (talk) 11:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That's literally what disambiguation does. Articles already exist for Aladdin (1958 film) and Aladdin (2019 film), so year disambiguation is at this point still necessary. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ...but it doesn't dis-ambiguate it from the Golden Films film; which is also a 1992 movie. Georgia guy (talk) 13:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Right. That’s the inherent nature of the primary topic of Aladdin (1992 film), like any primary topic. —В²C ☎ 17:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:PFILM, which says to disambiguate secondary-topic films from each other. As it mentions, "Policy at WP:PRECISION permits such Wikipedia project-specific naming criteria" such as for UK Parliament constituencies and U.S. state and territory highways. For films, if they have disambiguation terms, they should be disambiguated from one other. WP:IAR is not an excuse to do whatever one wants, and this move is not a step toward "improving or maintaining Wikipedia". It's literally an extra word for clarity and disambiguation. The point of the project-specific naming criteria is to sidestep fussing about edge cases about which secondary-topic film "deserves" less disambiguation. Readers are not harmed by this reasonable balance of disambiguation terms, which they are rarely going to type anyway. The effort toward culling disambiguation terms, like here, is unnecessary. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It does not seem like a major burden to include "Disney" in the disambiguator to make it clear which film is the topic of the article. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Oppose with not much to add but @BarrelProof is right that the addition of Disney is not too cumbersome for the title. Killuminator (talk) 01:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose per WP:PDABPRIMARY and WP:PRIMARYFILM. Full disambiguation works very well for the film project, where clashes between disambiguated titles are fairly common. WP:PRIMARYFILM is one of our better guidelines if you ask me: it offers consistency, is simple to apply, and diffuses disputes. If the nominator is proposing an exemption to the guideline it would be helpful to know why one is needed. Betty Logan (talk) 05:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I noticed that listed on the WP:PDABLIST is Willow (film) which failed a RM to Willow (1988 film) on December 11, 2022 (see that discussion). It's noted in the list that the 1988 film had a 28:1 pageview ratio with Willow (2019 film).
 * When it came to the 1992 Aladdin films, I noticed that the Disney film had, again, a ~76:1 pageview ratio with the Golden Films film, more than twice the ratio that the Willow films had. Thus, I considered the Disney film to be the WP:PRIMARYPDAB in this case.
 * Also, I'd like to ask why such guideline exists only for films and not other forms of media such as music, literature or television. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:PDABLIST is just a collected list of what exists; it is not a guideline about what should exist. The fact that only one discussed case is listed there that is contrary to WP:PRIMARYFILM may be a general indication of the tendency to consistently follow the rule rather than than a justification for exceptions. There are also various films listed in the recently added WP:PDAB. — BarrelProof (talk) 15:44, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As I wrote in June, the Willow move should be overturned. But now that BarrelProof has revealed there are other film articles that blatantly contravene PFILM, all of those should be corrected as well (and why isn't Willow on that list?). If you would like to contest the guideline, you should do so at WT:NCFILM, not here. PFILM has been consistently upheld in RM discussions, even those pertaining to the highest-profile films that are the clear primary topics, including at Talk:Titanic (1997 film) and Talk:Parasite (2019 film). InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The "to be fixed" list is just a dump of what was detected by a recent automatic search. The listed cases haven't been studied closely. The search found about 50 films, in fact; those have not been thoroughly checked. I just moved Vertigo (film) from that section into the WP:PDABLIST (41:1 pageview ratio relative to three other films combined, no prior discussion of the title evident). — BarrelProof (talk) 16:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think a larger discussion at WT:FILM or WT:NCFILM may be necessary to fix all of these. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Two of the three "non-primary" detected Vertigo films weren't even listed on the Vertigo (disambiguation) page until I put them there just minutes ago, and there was no hatnote about the ambiguity on the Vertigo (film) page. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:55, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I reject the entire notion of a primary parenthetical disambiguator that some here seem to be advocating for. The parenthetical disambiguators are, by definition, meant to be unambiguous. When there are 2 films with the same title that were released in the same year, neither of them should use (year film) as the disambiguator. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Hidden comment in plot summary
While I agree with most of the recent changes by, the hidden comment regarding the plot summary length was removed as unnecessary, as indicated here. I've restored the comment for now. As I don't want to get involved in a potential edit war, I'm opening up a discussion here.

On quite a few other film GAs and FAs (such as Back to the Future, Conan the Barbarian (1982 film), Avengers: Endgame, The Avengers (2012 film), The Empire Strikes Back, etc.), the hidden comment regarding the plot summaries can be useful for other editors to check before making edits. Also, the How to streamline a plot summary essay might be helpful in removing unnecessary words in the plot summaries.

If there are any other thoughts about this, please post your thoughts here. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

 * No war, and I too like most of the adjustments you've made.
 * I do understand your point about the note being helpful with the more popular films, so that someone with perhaps a lot of enthusiasm will not expand it too much. And I don't necessarily disagree.
 * My only question, however, is where the line between popular enough and not popular enough is drawn? I think consistency is important. It's why I tend to opt to remove or omit it from films with a moderate number of words that falls well within the 400-700 limits. milladrive (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Just to elaborate, I tend to think that the directive for potential editors is unnecessary when there's little risk of editors to exceed the 400-700 guidelines. It's why I have eliminated the note in articles that have little chance of exceeding those limits.
 * Furthermore, when the number of words is borderline (close to either 400 or 700), I think that the invisible notation to potential editors is important. I often add notation warnings to plots with more than 700 words (a very common issue). If the word count is 675 or 425, I often add the notation. But when the number of words is nowhere close, I believe the directive to be unnecessary, hence its removal.
 * The more I think about it, the less I think that film popularity should play a part in the weight of placing a plot-length notation. I continue to opine that when a plot has 550 words, a 400-700 directive is unnecessary. milladrive (talk) 01:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Since you called me out by name here after pulling a power play, and have deleted my post on your page — thus minimizing the attention to your own behavior — I was hoping there'd be some sort of response to my assertions.
 * I think the 400-700-word editor notation is pointless when a plot has 500-600 words, when editors are least likely to expand or shrink the plot beyond the Wikipedian guidelines. You seem to think otherwise.
 * Thoughts? milladrive (talk) 02:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late reply; I've been a bit busy with other things.
 * According to the relevant guidelines at WP:FILMPLOT, "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words. The summary should not exceed the range unless the film's structure is unconventional, such as with non-linear storylines, or unless the plot is too complicated to summarize in this range. (Discuss with other editors to determine if a summary cannot be contained within the proper range.)"
 * However, some editors ignore the hidden comment and expand the plot to above 700 words. I've also asked WT:FILM for their thoughts on the matter. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are there many examples of someone adding 150 words to an already-substantial summary? Do many plots with 550 words get expanded by the enthusiastic to more than 700?
 * As I've said, I understand your reasoning, and again, I don't necessarily disagree with wanting to dissuade expansion beyond the guidelines. It's why I add the invisible guideline to plots with a borderline amount of words (like 675). I also agree that the more popular films should have more info.
 * But there remains no definitive line defining which films warrant the directive and which do not. Who's to say which films are popular enough for editors to be concerned with over-expansion? And how can that directive be consistent? When the note is based more on word count than on popularity, consistency is more easily maintained.
 * I remain of the opinion that a plot with a moderate amount of words needs no warning to editors. If an overly eager editor goes overboard, I think it can be dealt with on an individual basis. milladrive (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Here are my thoughts on the matter. Aladdin (1992) is a popular film, and popular films tend to have some eager fans writing down excessively long plot summaries. Like plot summaries that you would find on a Fandom page. Thus, I believe that we can Keep the invisible comment. It takes up less bytes than the overly detailed plot.  Yoshiman6464 ♫🥚 02:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, I ask how that policy can have any consistency. Where is the line drawn, and who's drawing it?
 * Is a film like Popeye popular enough to warrant it? Its plot has 539 words, yet the invisible note was recently added. Is that plot really at risk of over-expansion? Not at all. The warning in that plot is thoroughly pointless and a waste of a couple of bytes. milladrive (talk) 16:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is not seen by the readers and works as a reminder to editors to keep the plot description concise with guideline. Also as a reminder to reviewers to watch out for bloating of the plot usually done by well-intentioned editors who want to make it look like a retelling of the story instead of a bare summary. It costs nothing to keep the hidden instructional note and does help even with summaries well within the guidelines. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. So, which film plots should have it? All of them? milladrive (talk) 18:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Usually it gets added after a problem edit as a reminder. Sometimes on new articles before the plot section gets fully fleshed out, also as a reminder during expansion. Kind of an editor judgement call if some editor sees a need. Harmless to keep in an article but I, personally, don't add them to articles until I fix a problem edit and see a need. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any point in having a policy regarding when the note should be added. As other editors have noted (sorry), adding the note does no harm, and I'm with Geraldo in that I normally add the note when I have to chip away at a summary that's exceeded the guideline (I've never personally seen a film plot summary in danger of being too short), especially if it was particularly long or if it's a summary that's been a perennial problem.
 * TL;DR no harm is caused by adding it, but harm may be caused by removing it, so add it if you feel inclined, but don't remove it without compelling reason? DonIago (talk) 19:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Got it. The explanations by you and Geraldo sound reasonable. I wasn't looking for policy as much as criteria. As a regular editor, I like to know the rules as much as possible (and I agree that this doesn't need a firm policy).
 * I will continue to add the invisible note to plots with the potential of going overboard, but I will no longer remove the notation from films to which it's been added.
 * Thank you to everyone for the input. milladrive (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad we could help! DonIago (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. So, which film plots should have it? All of them? milladrive (talk) 18:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Usually it gets added after a problem edit as a reminder. Sometimes on new articles before the plot section gets fully fleshed out, also as a reminder during expansion. Kind of an editor judgement call if some editor sees a need. Harmless to keep in an article but I, personally, don't add them to articles until I fix a problem edit and see a need. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any point in having a policy regarding when the note should be added. As other editors have noted (sorry), adding the note does no harm, and I'm with Geraldo in that I normally add the note when I have to chip away at a summary that's exceeded the guideline (I've never personally seen a film plot summary in danger of being too short), especially if it was particularly long or if it's a summary that's been a perennial problem.
 * TL;DR no harm is caused by adding it, but harm may be caused by removing it, so add it if you feel inclined, but don't remove it without compelling reason? DonIago (talk) 19:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Got it. The explanations by you and Geraldo sound reasonable. I wasn't looking for policy as much as criteria. As a regular editor, I like to know the rules as much as possible (and I agree that this doesn't need a firm policy).
 * I will continue to add the invisible note to plots with the potential of going overboard, but I will no longer remove the notation from films to which it's been added.
 * Thank you to everyone for the input. milladrive (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad we could help! DonIago (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you to everyone for the input. milladrive (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad we could help! DonIago (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aladdin (1992 Disney film)


text: Talk:List of Polish divisions in World War II


text:
Talk:Star Maker

Great article
Great article; Star Maker goes onto my list of books to read.
 * …on the scale of hundreds or millions of years.

I changed or to of because the former seems illogical, but I'm not entirely sure that's what the author meant. Please confirm.

I have also moved the following comment from the article to the talk page:
 * Notes to editors: the above hypothesis greatly resembles the gaia hypothesis, only that precedes it by several decades. Is this valid? Moreover, does relationship exist among the collective minds described, the Pierre de Chardin work and the Dawkins memes hypothesis exist?

—Herbee 23:18, 2004 Mar 19 (UTC)

Major re-write
As well as adding more information I've substantially re-written the original article: I thought that it was a bit vague, and was praising the book rather than describing it. I've tried to keep in all the original information, but I've taken out this sentence: "'Stapledon, a committed pacifist, wrote this book shortly before the start of World War II.'" I'm not sure this is relavent as I don't think it's really an anti-war book, except for the theme of progressive unity which I have mentioned.

--SpaceFrog 21:57, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

well although not explicity an antiwar book the pacifist element is quite apparent in the whole book.

spoiler
like the non-violence philoshopy of some of the destroyed civilizations. In any case it's not a really important sentence. The rewriting was a nice work, thx the original poster

Stapledon's Socialism
I was sorely tempted to alter the paragraph or two on Stapledon's influences, which clearly imply that marxism (and even Darwinism!) is/are passé -- this being a neo-liberal conceit of the present period, masquerading as fact -- making that passage completely gratuituous and partisan. But I decided instead to post my objection here, for now, as these contentions can and will get easily out of hand.

I was deeply impressed by Last an First men over 40 years ago, but have only read a few things by Stapledon since then. I am no expert on him. But I am an expert on marxism, and I do contend this (rather small, passing) slight. And fact is, it lessens the objectivity of the piece, however much the passage is 'qualified'. This implication shouldn't even have come up at all -- i.e. it is there solely for the purpose of placing doubt in the readers' minds, for purely partisan political reasons. And so that passage should be re-written.

And that wouldn't be so hard to do, AFAIC.

Pazouzou 23:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Star maker
I would like to suggest that a disambiguation be put onto the site, as Starmaker is also a song from Fame. I realise you can probably access this by searching for Fame, but I just think it would make life easier if people could search for the song as well.

Your views would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Dean

Fair use rationale for Image:Starmaker.JPG
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Fair use rationale for Image:Starmaker firstedition.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Starmaker.JPG
Image:Starmaker.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Starmakersfmasterworks.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

About C.S. Lewis' opinion about the book
I don't know if it is relevant enough to include in the article, or if a blog is a source that is reliable enough, but here it is if some more info is required:

From Narnia to a Space Odyssey: The War of Letters Between Arthur C. Clarke and C.S. Lewis:

Dear Mr. Clarke-- I quite agree that most scientifiction [science fiction] is on the level of cowboy boys' stories. But I think the fundamental moral assumptions in popular fiction are a very important symptom. If you found that the most popular stories were those in which the cowboy always betrayed his pals to the crooks and deserted his girl for the vamp, I don't think it would be unimportant. I don't of course think that at the moment many scientists are budding Westons: but I do think (hang it all, I live among scientists!) that a point of view not unlike Weston's is on the way. Look at Stapledon (Star Gazer ends in sheer devil worship), Haldane's Possible Worlds and Waddington's Science and Ethics. I agree Technology is per se neutral: but a race devoted to the increase of its own power by technology with complete indifference to ethics does seem to me a cancer in the universe. Certainly if he goes on his present course much further man can not be trusted with knowledge.

~C.S. Lewis, Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis: Volume II, Letter to Arthur C. Clarke of Dec 7, 1943

The Window in the Garden Wall--A C.S. Lewis Blog: August 2005 84.210.60.115 (talk) 11:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I have to say this seems ludicrously unfair. Over and over Star Maker comes back to the point that the primary evolution of a civilization is ethical, and if it lets technology get too far out in front it destroys itself. The novel actually calls species that engage in expansion for its own sake "pervert races". And I have no idea where he's seeing "devil worship". It's an un-Christian take on God to be sure, but mostly still well inside the parameters set by Abrahamism.174.119.130.152 (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Table of contents?
I've removed the table of contents section, as this is the only article on a book that I've found that has one and honestly, it's not notable.Wzrd1 (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

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Dyson sphere
Hi, according to the article on Olaf Stapleton, this book contains the first known mention of a Dyson sphere. What is the best place to add the information on this page?

Olaf Stapledonhttps://web.archive.org/web/20140109033551/http://meaningoflife.tv/transcript.php?speaker=dyson GridInstability (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Star Maker


text:
Reverse perspective

Reverse perspective, also called inverse perspective, inverted perspective, divergent perspective, or Byzantine perspective, is a form of perspective drawing in which the objects depicted in a scene are placed between the projective point and the viewing plane. Objects farther away from the viewing plane are drawn as larger, and closer objects are drawn as smaller, in contrast to the more conventional linear perspective for which closer objects appear larger. Lines that are parallel in three-dimensional space are drawn as diverging against the horizon, rather than converging as they do in linear perspective. Technically, the vanishing points are placed outside the painting with the illusion that they are "in front of" the painting.

The name Byzantine perspective comes from the use of this perspective in Byzantine and Russian Orthodox icons; it is also found in the art of many pre-Renaissance cultures, and was sometimes used in Cubism and other movements of modern art, as well as in children's drawings. The reasons for the convention are still debated among art historians; since the artists involved in forming the convention did not have access to the more realistic linear perspective convention, it is not clear how deliberate the effects achieved were.

title: Reverse perspective