text:
Talk:The Sandman (comic book)

Need more bulk to Critical reception
The article looks really great and well-referenced, and I believe its almost eligible for GA nomination someday. But the critical reception needs more content. I think it's too short, and we should write the comic book's overall commercial sales and other critic's opinion on it rather than just depend on the awards.Bulls123 (talk) 17:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Which graphic novel?
The intro section says "In 2013, Warner Bros. Studios announced that David S. Goyer will be producing an adaptation of the graphic novel, with Joseph Gordon-Levitt.[5]". Which graphic novel does it refer to? There are at least ten in the series. The cite doesn't say anything about the matter (or about it being from a graphic novel at all). Either way, it probably shouldn't use the term "the graphic novel" which implies there is only one. Thanks. :) --Irrevenant [ talk ] 07:23, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

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Draft article for the TV series
This is a notice that there is a draft for The Sandman (TV series) at Draft:The Sandman (TV series) until such a time that it is ready for inclusion in the mainspace. All are welcome to come help nurture the article's development there. — Young Forever (talk)   22:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 23 October 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t · c)  buidhe  03:05, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

The Sandman (Vertigo) → The Sandman (comic book) – Proper disambiguation, and this is the only comic book with the Sandman title we have an article on. Also, I think it's a slightly misleading title as most of the series was published under the main DC banner, and starting this year all reprints are coming under DC Black Label. JOE BRO  64  19:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Support move based on nomination. -- Zim Zala Bim talk 21:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment, is this title enough to disambiguate from the several other Sandman comic book characters?? I could see it being misconstrued.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:50, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , yes because Sandman (DC Comics) and Sandman (Marvel Comics) are clearly about characters, while this is the only article that is about the comic itself. Also, the current title of this article could definitely be confused with the Sandman (DC Comics) one because Vertigo was just an imprint of DC, not a separate entity. JOE BRO  64  20:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Afterword
Afterword is here https://web.archive.org/web/19970605010926/http://www.dccomics.com/sandman/tori.html TOC is here https://web.archive.org/web/19970605010118/http://www.dccomics.com/sandman/sand_toc.html

I like finding old resources on archived websites as they can help editors with the development of this article. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Sandman (comic book)


text:
Talk:Nineveh

Past Questions and Remarks
It will probably be easier to start fresh in a heading section, and introduce as much of this text as can be used nowadays. Anyone want to start? Wetman 23:40, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The article states that after 610 BC Nineveh was wiped from existence, yet in AD 627 there was a "Battle of Nineveh". This needs explanation. -RomeW 09:21, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"A large part of tablets...." ?? So, does this mean - a large number of tablets?? a large percentage of the tablets found?? A large group of tablets?? Confusing, and the later references to the clay tablets and library don't clear things up well. Probably would benefit from a rewrite, i.e. Wetman above. WBardwin 11:07, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

--

"It was buried out of sight, and no one knew its grave. It is never again to rise from its ruins. Nineveh was a place of worship" - This looks like mythical poetry (and very poorly written), rather than an encyclopedia article. :( Sciolus

The article is updated! --JFK 10:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC) WHAT'S THE CORRECT DISTANCE FROM THE BANKS OF THE MEDITERANIAN SEA TO NINEVAH - ON THE STRAIGHT LINE. I WANT TO KNOW THIS JUST TO FIND OUT HOW FAR THE BIG FISH SPAT OUT. --
 * You are asking in completely the wrong place, at any event, you seem to have misread Jonah 3:1-3. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Why can I not download this and the Babylon posts...when I try to download Nineveh it reads as follows: ! Package polyglossia Error: The current roman font does not contain the Syriac 208.119.147.138 (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)stba

How do you pronounce Nineveh? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.20.12.73 (talk • contribs). on 17.02.2006

It is pronounced in the Assyrian languge as "Nin-ew-Wah." Some Assyrians pronouce it as "Nin-Veh." Either prounciation is correct although the second one is more popular. User: Nineveh 209

Population figures
It is difficult and sometimes even impossible to rank the world´s top five largest cities in ancient times. The Chandler list is based on some very general assumptions. --JFK 12:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * It is believed that Nineveh was the largest city in the world from 668 to 612 BC.
 * Removed until verified. --JFK 11:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * those dates are far too specific, but it is fair to say that it was among the largest cities in Antiquity, and to give a rough estimate of its size. dab (ᛏ) 18:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

In Jonah 4:12 the population is 120,000 people

And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”DrSalted (talk) 04:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

3 days journey?
It says that three days' journey would equal 60 miles. I think that is way too far.Steve Dufour 05:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The biblical section isn't sourced. Maybe the three days' journey could be understood differently. Even as 3 days from the place where the fish vomited Jonah onto dry land. But that's just one guess. The section might be more interesting if it had secondary sources about the biblical references to Nineveh.Springatlast (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

"Hamitic Assyrians" map
There's no evidence the "Ancient Israelites" ever considered the Assyrians Hamitic in any way, apart from some stretchy interpretations of one verse, Genesis 10:11, that have appeared in relatively modern times. I don't object to the map appearing, considering the work that was put in it, but it needs attrib. for NPOV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I also think the map is out of place for this article and should be removed. Kristamaranatha (talk) 19:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

 * "Hamitic"? Do the same people talk of "Mohamedans" and "Chinamen" and peruse the rotogravure section of a Sabbath, one wonders. --Wetman (talk) 23:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

proposed additions
The following could be worked into the text. sources for this include: Time Life Lost Civilizations series: Mesopotamia: The Mighty Kings. (1995) and "The Seventy Wonders of the Ancient World" edited by Chris scarre 1999 (Thames and Hudson) If any one wants to work it in that would be fine or if anyone has any sugestions as to how and where I should do it I'll consider it when I do it. A little redundancy may need to be removed.

The Palace of Sennacherib in Ninevah was built aproximately 702-693 BCE The citadel walls surrounding the palace were about 12 kilometers long. The wall system consisted of an ashlar stone retaining wall about 6 m. high surmounted by a mudbrick wall about 10 m. high and 15 m. thick. The stone retaining wall had projecting stone towers spaced about every 18 m. The stone wall and towers were topped by three-step merlons.

The Palace was approximately 503 by 242 meters. The solid foundatiion was made out of limestone blocks and mud bricks; it was 22 meters tall. This is a total of about 2.68 million cubic meters (about 160 million bricks). The walls on top were made out of mud brick they were an additional 20 meters tall. It included 120 colossal door figures weighing upto 30 tons. These include many Winged lions or Bulls with a mans head. These were transported 30 miles from Quaries at Balatai and they had to be lifted up 65 feet once they arrived at the site presumably by a ramp. There are also 9880 feet of carved stone panels. Carved stone reliefs include a drawings of them moving one of the colossal statues. They include picture records every step including carving the statues and transporting them on a barge. One picture show 44 men towing a colossal statue. The carving shows 3 men directing the operation while standing on the Colossus. Once the statues arrived at there final destination the final carving was done. Most of the statue weigh between 10 and 30 tons. A modern experimiment required 180 men to tow a 10 ton clossus on easter Island in the 1950's  The stone carvings in the walls include many battle scenes, impalings and scenes showing his men parading the spoils of war before Sennacherib. He also bragged about his conquests, He wrote the following about Babylon "It's inhabitants, young and old, I did not spare, and with their corpses I filled the syreets of the city." He later wrote about a battle in Lachish "And Hezekiah of Judah who had not submitted to my yoke...him I shut up in Jeruselum his royal city like a caged bird. Earthworks I threw up against him, and anyone coming out of his city gate I made pay for his crime. His cities which I had plundered I had cut off from his land."  In January 681 He came to a sudden death. One version of his death claims he was killed by his own son another claims he was killed when a colossal statue fell on him and it was interpretted by some that the gods sought divine retribution.

Zacherystaylor (talk) 08:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I added this to the site. It contridicted the dimensions already on the site but there was no source for those measurements and the translation was wrong so I replaced it with the new numbers. That is the only existing part I changed. If there are any concerns I'll respond.

Zacherystaylor (talk) 03:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You might add your sources for the figures.

--Wetman (talk) 00:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Illustrations
The illustrations with text in the image uploaded by User:Fredarch look as if they'd been scanned from a publication. Do we have a copy violation here?--Wetman (talk) 00:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy in regard to Nimrud Page
The Nimrud entry states that the same archaeological findings occurred there, and were erroneously labeled "Nineveh." Is this true? There is no mention of the possible confusion here.Klvalens — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klvalens (talk • contribs) 10:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

ISIS and Nineveh
So I added a small paragraph regarding ISIS blowing up some of Nineveh's walls under the topic "Threats to Nineveh" one day ago. Then one person later removed the information, citing a Twitter post. Yet that post cannot be confirmed as it simply stated Nineveh was not damaged, without any citation.
 * In her own words, "My source, a professional archaeologist who drove round the walls this morning, is entirely credible" "Report just in from #Mosul archaeologist: walls of #Nineveh still intact, 9am Iraqi time today. "No trace of damage or exploding at all" "Reliable eye-witness report from professional archaeologist I've worked with for 25 years. You know better?" https://twitter.com/Eleanor_Robson/status/561246788410437632

 * Who do you trust? A citation from some random rag quoting anonymous sources or a Professor of Ancient Near Eastern History at University College London and Chair of Council at The British Institute for the Study of Iraq citing a professional archaeologists? DrSalted (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This was just a rumour that didn't receive much coverage in media therefore I removed it. Recent photos from an Arabic-language news website show the walls intact --  K a t h o v o  talk 16:57, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * BBC link. 86.14.159.189 (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * OOH OOH! I know the answer to this! Neither! Twitter isn't a reliable source. — Llywelyn II   10:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

IPA
My vote, as always with fairly established names, is to leave this for Wiktionary to sort out. That said, it's always possible people who don't go to Sunday School might show up to this page and pronounce it something along the lines of "9-vuh", so I can see its use. If we're doing IPA, though, we need to be thorough and include both of the major pronunciations. — Llywelyn II   10:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Etymology
I'm deferring to the lack of further info at OED and this article's previous "uncertain" status, but this source seems to feel it's now well established that (a) the Akkadian pronunciation was (originally?) Nūnu and (b) that its namesake was the specific river goddess Ninâ, apparently subsequently conflated as "Ishtar of Nineveh". Is this something people now feel certain about? — Llywelyn II   10:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Alt names
I like them and think all the ones we have are justified. We could also use: — Llywelyn II   10:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * the Egyptian names in hieroglyphics
 * the Babylonian and Akkadian names in cuneiform
 * Roman transliteration of the Syriac boxes
 * the Arabic name (if it's different) or script (if it's the same as the Hebrew or Farsi)

External links modified
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Abandoned or not, contradictory claims
On the one hand, the article says:

ЫYes, to the Greek historians Ctesias and Herodotus (c. 400 BC), Nineveh was a thing of the past; and when Xenophon passed the place in the 4th century BC he described it as abandoned.[24]

a few sentences later it says:

The library of Ashurbanipal may still have been in use until around the time of Alexander the Great.

This claim is unsourced and it would contradict the first claim given that Alexander lived in the second half of the 4th century. --Johannes Rohr (talk) 13:24, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Daesh housing plans?
Under the topic "Threats to the site", the last sentence of the last paragraph states "Daesh also called for intensive new housing in the Kuyunjiq part and opened a large road across the southern part of the site (currently known as Al Asady Road)." What is the source for this claim? Jjosiff (talk) 12:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Nineveh


text:
Talk:Lists of webcomics/waiting existence proof

List of comics that cannot be found and are waiting for reasonable proof that they exist or ever existed.

Move entries from the main page to here if all the following tests fail: We might need to be flexible with these tests.
 * the URL does not exist, or exists but has no comics
 * Google has no cache of the URL that shows a comic
 * [groups.google] finds nothing convincing

Entries waiting for proof (new URL, or name):

 * My TV ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MYTVComic/ )


text:
Popular Front of Latvia

The Popular Front of Latvia (Latvijas Tautas fronte) was a political organisation in Latvia in the late 1980s and early 1990s which led Latvia to its independence from the Soviet Union. It was similar to the Popular Front of Estonia and the Sąjūdis movement in Lithuania.

Its newspaper was Atmoda ("Awakening", cf. Latvian National Awakening), printed in the Latvian and Russian languages during 1989-1992.

Historic background
Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania were occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940–1941, by Nazi Germany in 1941–1944 and again by the Soviet Union in 1944–1991.

In 1940, almost immediately an armed resistance started, which under the name of Forest Brothers continued until 1956. A chance to regain independence came in 1980s when Soviet general secretary Mikhail Gorbachev attempted to reform the Soviet Union. In particular, Gorbachev's glasnost policy allowed more freedom of speech in the Soviet Union than ever before.

Beginning in 1986, Latvians began to organise around specific causes. One of the first successes in challenging Moscow was the stoppage of the building of the 4th hydroelectric dam near Daugavpils on the Daugava, the main river in Latvia. This protest inspired the formation of the Environmental Protection Club, which saw the environmentally driven protests as a channel through which to challenge the Soviet regime more broadly.

Latvia's independence movement started with small demonstrations for independence and human rights in 1986. The first demonstrations, organised by Helsinki-86, were, however, suppressed by the government of Latvian SSR. The breaking point came in summer 1988. Many prominent Latvians publicly announced their support for increased autonomy for Latvia. Latvian newspapers started writing about aspects of Latvian history which had been banned during the Soviet period (for example, how Latvia had been occupied in 1940). The flag of Latvia which had been banned during the Soviet period was brought back. To summarise, a strong resurgence of Latvian national identity had started.

Popular Front from 1988 to 1990
This resurgence created several political organisations devoted to increased autonomy or independence for Latvia. The LTF was the biggest organisation. It was founded on 9 October 1988. Originally, Tautas Fronte took a moderate position, requesting wide autonomy for Latvia but stopping short of calling for independence. Tautas Fronte was supported by moderate members of the leadership of the Latvian SSR including head of state Anatolijs Gorbunovs, but opposed by hardline Communists.

Tautas Fronte quickly grew to 250,000 members. Its goal was to create a wide coalition devoted to autonomy or independence of Latvia. As 48% of Latvia's population was ethnically non-Latvian (mostly people who had moved to Latvia from other parts of the Soviet Union), Tautas Fronte reached out to ethnic minorities. In particular, it advocated school education in languages other than Latvian and Russian to attract the support of non-Russian minorities. At the same time, Tautas Fronte worked with more radical Latvian movements advocating the immediate independence of Latvia.

Gradually, the overall opinion within Tautas Fronte shifted from the autonomy of Latvia within the Soviet Union to full independence. On 31 May 1989, it announced that the government of the Soviet Union had not been sympathetic enough to Latvia gaining autonomy and an independent Latvia had become the only option.

In 1989 and 1990, the first free elections were held in Latvia since Kārlis Ulmanis' coup d'état in 1934. The most important were the elections to the Supreme Soviet, the parliament of the Latvian SSR, on 18 March 1990. A pro-independence coalition, led by Tautas Fronte, won 138 out of 201 seats in the Supreme Soviet, more than the 2/3 majority needed to amend the Constitution.

Tautas fronte from 1990 to 1993
After the 1990 elections, Tautas fronte became the governing party in Latvia. On 4 May 1990, the first law passed by the new Supreme Soviet declared Latvia's intention to restore independence. Dainis Īvāns, the chairman of Tautas fronte, became the deputy speaker of parliament and his deputy, Ivars Godmanis, became the prime minister. Many other members of Tautas fronte took key positions in the government of Latvia.

From May 1990 to August 1991, Latvia went through a tense period. Its independence was not recognised by the government of the Soviet Union and a military crackdown threatened by the Soviet government was generally feared.

Several Soviet tanks appeared on the bank of the Daugava river in the Riga Old Town. Television networks broadcast footage of rifle shots being exchanged at night in Old Town on the evening of 13 January 1991. On the streets unarmed people built the Barricades and spent days and nights guarding them, singing Latvian songs. Because of this the independence movement is now known as "the Singing Revolution".

The independence of Latvia was finally recognised after the failure of the Soviet putsch in August 1991. The main political goal of Tautas fronte was thus achieved. It now faced a more difficult task: reforming the socialist economy of Latvia into a free-market system. The economic transition was very difficult, with the GDP of Latvia halving from 1990 to 1993. With the economy in severe decline, the popularity of the Godmanis cabinet declined. Many politicians left Tautas fronte and formed new political parties to avoid being associated with the unpopular government.

The end of Tautas fronte
In June 1993, Latvia held the first elections of the parliament since the restoration of independence. Weakened by economic difficulties and defections of many politicians, the Godmanis-led Tautas fronte received just 2.62% of the popular vote and gained no seats in the new parliament. It attempted to reinvent itself as a Christian democratic party and changed its name to Kristīgā Tautas partija (Christian People's Party) but without much success. Eventually, it merged with another party, Kristīgi demokrātiskā savienība (Christian Democratic Union). The People's Front finally dissolved itself on 9 October 1999 during its 9th congress.

Legacy
All or almost all the political goals of Tautas fronte have been achieved. Latvia is now an independent country, with Latvian as the only official language. Its economy and politics, formerly socialist and oriented towards the Soviet Union, is now free-market and European-oriented. While Tautas fronte itself ceased to exist during the economic difficulties of the mid-1990s, many of its former activists have important roles in today's Latvia.

The Museum of the Popular Front of Latvia is located in its former offices, which are owned by the state, in Vecpilsētas iela 13/15 in Riga.

title: Popular Front of Latvia


text:
Talk:Despair (DC Comics)

Untitled
I remember somewhere in the series it was revealed that Despair was the second incarnation of herself. Does anyone remember the reference for that? --zandperl 23:45, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Does anybody know if theres a picture of Despairs realm on the Net.Oh and i think the best Despair was done by McManus in "Three Septembers and a January" my personal favourite. David Kartaš.

Despair first appeared in Warlord#46 in 1981
Despair also appeared in Warlord#46.
 * Completely different character. The one from Warlord was just some stereotypical "devil" character. ChimpZealot (talk) 01:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Despair of the Endless.png
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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Despair (DC Comics)


text:
Talk:Customer experience management

Does anyone have any idea what this is? Jwrosenzweig 23:49, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree, this whole series of articles being posted is very confusing and appears to be copied from some sort of textbook. Please enlighten me...? --Flockmeal 00:23, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

I imagine Karsten Kilian has given each student in his class a section of a marketing textbook to read and summarise for Wikipedia. Judging by the section titles, this marketing textbook is prescriptive, displaying a particular point of view, and as such is inappropriate for Wikipedia. -- Tim Starling 00:52, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be moved to Wikibooks. I think it would fit in nicely there. It would be a great pity to miss out on all this text. -- Tim Starling 00:54, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

If you are reading this and are associated in any way with the school that is running this project, please put a brief description here of what the project is, and who we can contact to find out more about it? We want to help, but we are very confused by these articles, and want always to make sure that new contributors understand the goals and aims here at Wikipedia. Also list this information at School and university projects. Jwrosenzweig 00:33, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The list:
 * This page: Customer experience management
 * Subpages: Analyzing the experiential world of the customer - Building the experiential platform - Designing the brand experience - Structuring the customer interface - Engaging in continuous innovation - Marketing concept - Customer Relationship Management (CRM) - Customer satisfaction - Identify Target Customer - Divide the Experiential World into 4 Layers - Track Experiences along Touchpoints - Survey the Competitive Landscape - Experiential Positioning - Experiential Value Promise (EVP) - Overall Implementation Theme - The Product Experience - The Look and Feel - Experiential Communications - Experiential Communications - Style and Substance - Essence and Flexibility - CEM integration - CEM organization - Timing
 * Redirects: Customer Experience Management (CEM) - Marketing Concept - Customer Satisfaction - Analyzing the Experiential World of the Customer - Building the Experiential Platform - Designing the Brand Experience - Structuring the Customer Interface - Engaging in Continuous Innovation - CEM Integration - CEM Organization

Has anyone heard from Karstan yet? This - http://www.visio-consult.de/ - appears to be his website - and gives kilian@visio-consult.de as a contact address... maybe someone interested can make contact and work out something beenficial to all sides? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:33, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I will do so. Karsten, if you're reading this, please read a note I left you on my talk page?  Thank you. Jwrosenzweig 17:04, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

From VfD

 * Which VfD? This title has never been to V/AfD. -- RHaworth 12:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The following articles should be kept: customer experience management, Experiential world, Experiential platform, Brand experience, Customer interface, Experiential innovation, CEM integration, and CEM organization. mydogategodshat 21:31, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Until I can get an answer to the question at User talk:145.254.237.111, I'd like this listed for deletion. It looks to me as though this is a large school project that hasn't informed us it's coming, and isn't being run by people who are familiar with Wikipedia.  I am hoping that the VFD notice on this page will convince one of the people on this project to come here, see this note, and let us know what's going on with a description at School and university projects and a contact name of the person in charge so that we can better understand what's going on and educate the students about Wikipedia. Jwrosenzweig 00:30, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Subpages: Analyzing the experiential world of the customer - Building the experiential platform - Designing the brand experience - Structuring the customer interface - Engaging in continuous innovation - Marketing concept - Customer Relationship Management (CRM) - Customer satisfaction - Identify Target Customer - Divide the Experiential World into 4 Layers - Track Experiences along Touchpoints - Survey the Competitive Landscape - Experiential Positioning - Experiential Value Promise (EVP) - Overall Implementation Theme - The Product Experience - The Look and Feel - Experiential Communications - Experiential Communications - Style and Substance - Essence and Flexibility - CEM integration - CEM organization - Timing
 * Redirects: Customer Experience Management (CEM) - Marketing Concept - Customer Satisfaction - Analyzing the Experiential World of the Customer - Building the Experiential Platform - Designing the Brand Experience - Structuring the Customer Interface - Engaging in Continuous Innovation - CEM Integration - CEM Organization
 * Articles created by a university lecturer. Related tothe above listing. Poorly named (many verbs), intended as a description of a particular textbook's POV. The author obviously has no intention to create an NPOV article under these titles. -- Tim Starling 00:31, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * also related: CEM organization, CEM integration, and a bazillion other articles by 145.254.237.111 . These all seem to be mass vandalism/trolling in the form of advertizement. --zandperl 00:32, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I think it's a marketing textbook, not an advertisement. Perhaps it can be moved to Wikibooks. -- Tim Starling 00:57, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Remove unless a very good explanation is provided in a day or two. Fredrik 01:00, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Move to Wikibooks and do rewriting, too POV. --Flockmeal 02:38, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Guessing by a small sample reading, it's far from being NPOV or encyclopedic style, and also not too interesting. I'd say delete unless somebody (read: original author) comes up with a much better version. Kosebamse 11:36, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * The base term (Customer Experience Management) is a real but little-used phrase for a sub-set of the management discipline Customer Relationship Management. The topic should be covered there. Unfortunately, I don't think this page is recoverable.  Easier to delete and let someone start over. The sub-pages are apparently building up to duplicate or create a text and violate either the "source" or "original research" rules. Rossami 13:28, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * from Jwrosenzweig's talk page:
 * Karsten Kilian on Deletion Request for Customer Experience Management (CEM) Thanks for your feedback. We are a university in Germany with an international students from 6 different countries. The aim of the Customer Experience Management (CEM) is as follows:
 * introduce a fairly new concept in the literature to interested audience
 * make students familiar with wikipedia.org
 * add to the content quality of Wikipedia
 * I hope that my explanation does make it clear what our goal is and I would be thankful if you could withdraw the deletion note.
 * Kudos to the university for trying this, but we need to ensure that what they are doing fits the Wikipedia mold. Currently the articles don't stand by themselves. Could we find someone willing to hand-hold these students through the Wikipedia process, getting the titles right, making sure each article is self-contained etc.? I think we should also strongly encourage all the contributors to create logins, or at very least the teacher to create a login, so that we can send feedback. DJ Clayworth 15:05, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Move to Wikibooks; Not complying to neither NPOV nor Wikipedia style and layout. — Sverdrup (talk) 16:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I am in contact with Karsten on my talk page and via email. I urge you all to hold off a few days and let Karsten and I try to find a way to make this workable.  Wikibooks might be a very good idea (thanks Sverdrup) if Wikipedia turns out to be a bad fit.  Anyone who wants to help guide these students, please do, but if you're wondering who is taking the lead for the moment, it's me.  I think we can sort things out. Jwrosenzweig 17:22, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for doing this, James. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 17:29, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree; if they want to fix it, we should give them time to do that. — Sverdrup (talk) 17:56, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * As an update, Karsten has agreed in an email to me that the current articles are not matching Wikipedia's standards well -- he pledges personal attention to them, and asks that we delay any decision making for 2-3 days while he help his students shape the articles. Jwrosenzweig 20:26, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete all: original research. They need to set up their own wiki to host this stuff. Wile E. Heresiarch 22:56, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete all, for the simple reason that they aren't encylopedia-type topics by any stretch of the definition. The folks at Wikibooks should judge whether this would be welcome there... -- Seth Ilys 23:11, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete all - this effort has started up again. User:Kkilian72 is creating pages linked to CEM: Experiential Innovation Customer Interface Brand Experience Experiential Platform Experiential World - I thought they agreed to stop until this was resolved. - Texture 23:14, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to make of these articles. I havnt read them all yet, but from what I have read, most articles are a mix of accurate statements, a couple of inaccuracies, and an attempt to present well established marketing concepts as new by renaming them. I wouldnt want to see them all deleted, but at the same time I wouldnt want the job of fixing them all. mydogategodshat 01:39, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I have read more of the articles now and I think most of them could be kept, improved, merged, or renamed. I would suggest letting the students work on the articles in a defined project space, then having Kkilian add them to the main Wiki when he/she thinks they are ready. Note to Kkillian: There is a common theme than runs through these articles. It is the dicotomy between outside-in processes and inside-out processes as first described by professor Schultz and George Day. I have a lot of respect for Don Shultz's work, but I think in an encyclopedia we shouldnt redefine concepts in terms of one point of view. Send me an e-mail if you wish to discuss this further. mydogategodshat 02:39, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Response to comments made above: I dont see any advertising here. Nor do I see original research, infact, my guess is that these are headings from a textbook which students have been instructed to write about. As for the topics being non-encyclopedic, I feel marketing topics are just as encyclopedic as physics or history topics. Keep if the students are going to continue working on the articles, several have potential. mydogategodshat 04:21, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * The bigest problem that we are going to have with these articles is not the occassional innaccuracy or the POV, both of which could easily be fixed, but the integration of the material into the existing encyclopedia. Most of these topics are already covered. Either the new material would have to be incorporated into the existing stuff (for example Experimental Positioning[] would go into positioning (marketing), or all of these articles would have to be merged into four or five articles that present the consequences of outside-in strategies in general and consumer experience management in particular. mydogategodshat 16:41, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * This should be trasnwikied and moved to Wikibooks. along with sub-articles below. Davodd 05:49, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

Revisit possible deletion, merge, etc
I ran across some of the articles mentioned above, and would like to address them as a whole rather than individually if possible. For most of them (all but 2?), there has been no effort to provide sources, and I think there may still be WP:NOT, WP:OR and WP:NOTABLE issues here that may have not been previously considered, or were assumed would be resolved with more contributions. --Ronz 03:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Of all the articles mentioned, only these still exist: Marketing orientation (was Marketing concept), Customer satisfaction, Experiential world, Experiential platform, Brand experience, Customer interface, and Experiential innovation.

 * These word soufflés need stubbifying at the very least. I was going to remove the section "A CEM framework" as as copyvio from, and, considering that the second section, "Organization of CEM" smells just the same, and in view of the evaluation above, I'm absolutely convinced that that is another copyvio. So that leaves the first sentence, a nice little stub, I thought... until I realized from this historical version that it is word-for-word from Schmitt's book. OK, that leaves nothing but copyvio. I'm speedying. I'll leave this talkpage so people can read my reasoning. Bishonen | talk 01:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Thanks! Of the remaining links from above, only Customer satisfaction has progressed beyond the stubs that these all started out as.  The rest should be given as critical an eye as you have done here. --Ronz 01:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Looks like it's all from Schmitt:  --Ronz 02:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Experiential world, Experiential platform, Brand experience, Customer interface, and Experiential innovation all appear just to be further summaries of Schmitt's book as this article was. These remaing article's can't stand alone as they are, now that this main article is gone. --Ronz 02:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * All speedied as copyvios. That was simpler than I thought, they were incredibly obvious. OK, the encyclopedia improved! :-) Bishonen | talk 11:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I fully agree with Bishonen's objections in the prod message here. But what links here says that we need something on this title. If it survives as a redirect for a few days, I will fix the double redirects. -- RHaworth 12:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Customer experience management


text:
Talk:Tonberry

Just to let you know, Final Fantasy V had Tonberries near the end of the second world. I don't remember if they were called that or not.

I highly suspect that the Japanese version of FFVI called them "Tonberry" rather than "Pugs" but I won't change anything because I have no proof to back that up.

These are some of the creepiest damn things. They've always seemed to me to be inspired by folklore or myth. Maybe Celtic? Anglachel 23:18, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * A bit late to respond, to be sure, but, yeah, they've always been called "Tonberry" in the Japanese versions. Ted Woolsey changed it to "Pug" for FF3US because of character limitations ("Master Tonberry" wouldn't fit, but "Master Pug" would), and the translators of the FF Anthology version of FF5 inexplicably called them Dingleberries. Don't know about any sort of mythological inspiration, though: as far as I know they were created for the series. But, yeah, they're creepy ~_~ – Seancdaug 04:17, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * One of the coolest/creepiest original ideas in Final Fantasy, in my opinion. As for inspiriation, I was just thinking about the will o' the wisps phenomenon; often crafted by folklore into magical lanterns held by sprites that lead people to death. A creature holding a lantern to draw someone forward in a dark place and them stab them sounds perfectly at home with the will o' the whisps stories. I'm almost surprised it isn't already one. --Made2Fade 21:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tonberry


text:
Michael Ryder

Michael Glen Wayne Ryder (born March 31, 1980) is a Canadian former professional ice hockey right winger. Ryder played 12 seasons in the National Hockey League (NHL) with the Montreal Canadiens, Boston Bruins, Dallas Stars, and New Jersey Devils.

He was a member of the 2011 Stanley Cup-winning Bruins squad, scoring eight goals during the 2011 Stanley Cup Playoffs to help Boston to their first title since 1972.

Junior
Ryder played for the Hull Olympiques of the QMJHL.

Montreal Canadiens
Ryder was drafted by the Montreal Canadiens in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft, 8th round, 216th overall. He hired hockey agent Thayne Campbell before signing with Montreal.

On May 30, 2003, Ryder scored the winning goal to end the longest game in American Hockey League history. His goal at 14:56 of the fourth overtime period gave the Hamilton Bulldogs a 2–1 win over the Houston Aeros in Game 2 of the Calder Cup Finals.

In the 2003–04 NHL season, he played in the NHL YoungStars Game. He was named the NHL Rookie of the Month for February 2004. He finished the season leading all rookies in points, powerplay points, shots, and goals. During the 2004–05 NHL lockout he played for Leksands IF of the second division of Swedish hockey. He reached 30 goals in back-to-back seasons after the lockout.

On April 7, 2007, he scored a natural hat-trick in the 2nd period against the Toronto Maple Leafs when the Canadiens were down 3–1. This was the most important game of the regular season since the Leafs, Canadiens, and the New York Islanders were vying for the last playoff spot in the Eastern Conference, and the game would determine which team would take the last playoff spot. Despite Ryder's effort, the Canadiens eventually lost the game 6–5.

The Canadiens fared better from another excellent performance from Ryder in a historic comeback against the New York Rangers on February 19, 2008. Ryder scored two goals and added an assist in a 6–5 win after the Canadiens were trailing by a score of 5–0. At the time, this comeback marked the only time the Canadiens won when trailing 5–0 in the team's 99-year history. Ryder was initially credited with a hat trick, however, his last goal was later changed as it was determined that his shot went off teammate Mark Streit's leg before hitting the back of the net.

Ryder's contract expired on June 30, 2008, and the Canadiens did not re-sign him, due in part to his scoring only 14 goals and 17 assists for 31 points, the lowest totals of his career. He also played in only 4 of Montreal's 12 playoff games.

Boston Bruins
On July 1, 2008, Ryder signed a contract with the Boston Bruins for 3 years worth approximately $4 million per season. It is thought that part of the reason Ryder signed with Boston was that Ryder has had nearly six seasons worth of play (three in junior hockey, one in the AHL and two with the Canadiens) under Claude Julien, the Bruins coach at the time.

On October 9, 2008, Ryder scored his first goal in a Bruins uniform in Boston's season opener against the Colorado Avalanche, a 5-4 Bruins victory. The goal coincidentally was Ryder's 100th career goal. He went on to score 27 goals in his first season with Boston as the Bruins clinched first overall in the Eastern Conference. Their first round matchup was with the eighth seeded Montreal Canadiens, Ryder's former club. He scored four goals in the series as the Bruins made quick work of Montreal, sweeping them in four straight games. Ryder was then held to only one goal during the Bruins seven game Conference semi-finals loss to the Carolina Hurricanes.

During the Bruins' first round matchup against the Canadiens in the 2011 Stanley Cup Playoffs, Ryder came up clutch again facing his former team. He scored the game-winning goal in overtime of Game 4 and in Game 5, Ryder would go on to make a miraculous glove save while teammate and goaltender Tim Thomas was out of position. Later in 2022, the Bruins Director of Health, Fitness & Wellness, John Whitesides highlighted Ryder's glove save stating, "Without that play right there, there is no Stanley Cup in 2011."

Ryder won his first and only Stanley Cup on June 15, 2011, when the Bruins defeated the Vancouver Canucks 4-0 in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. With this victory, Ryder became the second native of Newfoundland and Labrador to win a Stanley Cup championship after Daniel Cleary of Harbour Grace, who accomplished the feat with the Detroit Red Wings in 2008. Alex Newhook of the Colorado Avalanche joined these two when winning it in 2022.

Dallas Stars
On July 1, 2011, Ryder signed a two-year, $7 million contract with the Dallas Stars.

In the 2011–12 season, Ryder recorded his career high 35th goal during the Dallas Stars 3-1 win against the Edmonton Oilers on March 28, 2012, at Rexall Place in Edmonton.

Return to Montreal
During his second year with the Stars in the lockout shortened 2012–13 season, Ryder was traded back to the Montreal Canadiens, along with a third round pick in the 2013 NHL Entry Draft, in exchange for Erik Cole.

New Jersey Devils
On July 5, 2013, Ryder signed a two-year, $7 million contract with the New Jersey Devils. Due to the Devils' policy under Lou Lamoriello of numbers above 40 being prohibited, Ryder switched from wearing sweater 73 to 17 during his tenure with the club.

After starting strongly in the 2013–14 season with 16 goals, Ryder struggled in the second half of the season, with only 2 goals after January 11, 2014.

January 16, 2015, Ryder played in his 800th NHL game, with the Devils falling 5-1 to the Anaheim Ducks at the Honda Center in Anaheim.

End of career
Ryder's 237 goals and 484 total points in the NHL are records for players born in Newfoundland and Labrador, making him the province's most successful hockey player ever.

June 10, 2017 Michael Ryder was inducted into Hockey NL's Hall of Fame.

title: Michael Ryder


text:
Battle of Gaza

Battle of Gaza may refer to:
 * Battle of Gaza (312 BC), between Egypt and Macedon
 * Battle of Raphia (217 BC), between Egypt and the Seleucids
 * Battle of Gaza (1239), between the Crusaders and the Ayyubids
 * Mongol raids into Palestine (1260–1300), including Gaza City
 * First Battle of Gaza (26 March 1917), a Turkish victory over the British
 * Second Battle of Gaza (19 April 1917), a Turkish victory over the British
 * Third Battle of Gaza (1–2 November 1917), a British victory over the Turks

 * Battle of Gaza (2007), intra-Palestinian fighting between Fatah and Hamas
 * Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (2023–present), between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas
 * Siege of Gaza City, between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas

title: Battle of Gaza


text:
Cadastral divisions of Victoria

Cadastral divisions in Victoria are called counties, which are further subdivided into parishes and townships, for cadastral or land administration purposes. Cadastral divisions of county, parish and township form the basis for formal identification of the location of any piece of land in the state. There are 37 counties and 2004 parishes and 909 townships. Parishes were subdivided into sections of various sizes for sale as farming allotments, or designated as a town and then divided into sections and these subdivided into crown allotments. However, many parishes do not follow county borders, some being located in more than one county.

Counties in Victoria, Australia were gazetted in stages between 1849 and 1871 as Victoria was progressively opened up to British settlement. All parish boundaries were gazetted by 1890.

In addition to identification of particular parcels of land by county, parish and other names, such parcels are also usually identified by reference to a lot number of a particular plan of subdivision or other certified plan or survey. Legal documents (such as grants, titles or transfers) that describe a particular parcel of land do so by reference to the county, parish, township (if there is one), section, crown allotment number, and certified plan number — for example: "County of Dalhousie, Parish of Lauriston, being 2 hectares, being Crown Allotment 2, Section 40"; or "Parish of Ballarat, County of Grant, Crown Allotment 29, Section 101, Township of Ballarat East, as shown on Certified Plan No. 105127" Under streamlined rules of the Torrens title in Australia, a parcel of land on a transfer, etc. can now be described by reference to the relevant volume-folio number on the Land Register, which is itself based on the cadastral descriptions described above. When searching for title details, for example online, searching by street address is also often available. In each case, titles continue to be based on the original cadastral descriptions.

Unlike counties in the United States and the United Kingdom, Victoria's counties have no administrative or political function. County names have traditionally been used as names for Victorian electoral districts, although the boundaries of these districts seldom coincided with county boundaries.

History

Following the unauthorised settlement of settlers from Tasmania (then called Van Diemen's Land) in the future Melbourne in 1835, in September 1836, Governor Bourke established the Port Phillip District of New South Wales. He also commissioned Robert Hoddle to make the first plan for the town. The plan was completed on 25 March 1837, and came to be known as the Hoddle Grid. The surveys were intended to prepare for land sales. The boundaries of the Port Phillip District were not settled until 1 July 1843, when a proclamation formalised the border as running from Cape Howe, to the nearest source of the Murray River, and then along the course of the Murray to the border with South Australia.

Land districts
Before the division of the Port Phillip District into counties, the colony was divided into land districts, as shown on an 1864 map. The land districts were used as the names for parts of the state where counties had yet to be proclaimed. The land districts included:

 * Bourke Land District (Melbourne area, including the County of Bourke)
 * Geelong (or Grant) Land District
 * Gipps Land District (name for the area today is still Gippsland)
 * Loddon Land District
 * Murray Land District
 * Normanby Land District
 * Western Land District
 * Wimmera Land District (the southern part still called the Wimmera today)

Proclamation of counties
Counties were proclaimed or changed in 1849, 1853, 1869, 1870 and 1871. The proclamation of counties of 1849 was made while Port Phillip District was part of New South Wales, while the others were made after the separation from NSW in 1851, to create the colony of Victoria.

Earlier maps of Gippsland area in the eastern part of Victoria show proposed counties of Douro (a title of the Duke of Wellington), Bass, Haddington, Bruce, Abinger, Combermere and Howe with approximate boundaries. These counties are shown on several early maps such as an 1845 map and 1848 map. They were presumably changed in the mid-1860s, as they appear on maps up until 1864, but the new counties appear on an 1865 map.

In turn, all parish boundaries were gazetted by 1890. Historical parish plans and maps produced between 1837 and 1986, the majority of which have been digitised, are available online from the State Library Victoria.

Naming of the counties
The majority of the counties proclaimed prior to 1871 were named after British politicians. The counties formed from the Gipps Land District, Loddon Land District, Murray Land District and Wimmera Land District proclaimed in 1871 were all given aboriginal names.

List of Victorian counties
The 37 Victorian counties and the year they were proclaimed are:

Land administration
Land Use Victoria is the Victorian Government's key agency for land administration, property information and facilitating better use of government-owned land.

title: Cadastral divisions of Victoria


text:
Talk:Philosophical progress

Instrumental optimism should not be presented as a "synthesis" of pessimism and reasoned optimism. Logically, it is one side of a dichotomy between two different views, both of which conclude that even though philosophy is incapable of scientific progress, philosophy still has value. This dichotomy is between whether that value is intrinsic or extrinsic. Hence, a reasoned optimist believes that philosophy has intrinsic value, and an instrumental optimist believes that philosophy has extrinsic value. Furthermore, these two different views can be fruitfully combined, since they are not mutually incompatible. --Susurrus 23:57, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lessons for Philosophy and Metaphilosophy
The following section seems perfectly useless to this article. It could have been included at the end of any article whatsoever about philosophy. I have therefore deleted it, but am including it here, in case someone wants to develop it further into a proper article of its own:

 * Philosophers are somewhat notorious for pursuing discussions to the point that even the most simple concepts take on the rarefied air of paradox, and the whole discussion collapses into a self-referential hall of mirrors. The fate of this article is no different; indeed, now it is even falling into self-referentiality about its own self-referentiality. But there is an important lesson contained in this about the nature of philosophical disputes: they exhibit their own peculiar sort of what Jean-Paul Sartre called "absolute inwardness:" every attempt to resolve a philosophical dispute essentially entangles us in disputes about the nature of philosophy itself. Meta-philosophical reflections on the nature of philosophy and the possibility of philosophical progress are not specialized side-notes to other philosophical work, but rather are involved in--and themselves involve--key debates in metaphysics, epistemology and philosophy of science, philosophy of language, and the theory of value. It may seem like philosophy is stuck with a terrible burden, if it is expected to explain itself as well as its subject-matter at every turn. But appearances may be deceiving: things may not be as weird as they seem. As Ludwig Wittgenstein was fond of pointing out, it may not be that remarkable that you use the same methods even when you philosophize about philosophy itself: "When you are learning spelling, 'SPELLING' is one of the words that you learn to spell. But you don't speak of 'spelling of the second-order.'"

--Susurrus 00:22, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Under construction
Thanks, Susurrus, for your editing work on this article. I fear, however, that as it currently stands the article needs some substantial reorganization, and that some things will need to be put back more like they were before the edits in order to preserve important points and the textual flow. I've begun work on this and should be able to work some more on it soon.

Some points in response to specific concerns:

 * Instrumental optimism should not be presented as a "synthesis" of pessimism and reasoned optimism. Logically, it is one side of a dichotomy between two different views, both of which conclude that even though philosophy is incapable of scientific progress, philosophy still has value. This dichotomy is between whether that value is intrinsic or extrinsic.

This is only the case if you neglect half of the instrumental optimist position. It's certainly true that instrumental optimists are on the same side of the ledger as intrinsic optimists if the only question being asked is "Is philosophical inquiry worthwhile as a form of intellectual activity? (Y/N)". But that is not the only question asked; there is, also, the question "Where would the worth of philosophical inquiry have to come from, if it has any?"—on which the instrumental optimist agrees with the pessimist and not with the intrinsic optimist. That is a pretty important difference between them—generally, if two people agree that somet X is worthwhile but completely disagree about where that worth comes from, then they may very well have a disagreement about X that is every bit as wide as each has with someone who regards X as worthless; their positions may have nothing in particular in common except for the word "worth."

 * Hence, a reasoned optimist believes that philosophy has intrinsic value, and an instrumental optimist believes that philosophy has extrinsic value. Furthermore, these two different views can be fruitfully combined, since they are not mutually incompatible.

I think it's correct that someone could hold the instrumental optimist position as a historical thesis as an addition to holding the intrinsic optimist position. But most of those who are attracted to making any kind of fuss about instrumental optimism are drawn to it because they are suspicious of the Platonic picture about the internal value of philosophy. Indeed I'd argue that unless one makes the stronger case that not only instrumental optimism is true but also that philosophy could have no other source of worth as an intellectual activity, the position is just a distraction from the central question—unless and until you've argued that philosophy can't have worth apart from its good (non-philosophical) effects, the central question is going to be whether or not philosophy can have value on its own. Only once the question of intrinsic worth has been answered in the negative does the question of instrumental worth become interesting to whether or not people are wise or foolish to go into philosophy.

I've made some edits to reflect this in the article.

Radgeek 14:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hello, Radgeek.

 * Thanks, Susurrus, for your editing work on this article. I fear, however, that as it currently stands the article needs some substantial reorganization, and that some things will need to be put back more like they were before the edits in order to preserve important points and the textual flow. I've begun work on this and should be able to work some more on it soon.

I'll suspend judgement until I see the full edits.

 * This is only the case if you neglect half of the instrumental optimist position.

It is the case if you consider both questions you raise there. Both positions, as I said, are on the same side when you are answering the question of whether or not philosophy has value. Both positions, as I said, differ about whether philosophy has intrinsic or extrinsic value. You seem here simply to be saying that that difference is already very large. I don't have any difficulty with that. But I do not see the value of presenting instrumental optimism as a synthesis of reasoned optimism and pessimism.

 * I think it's correct that someone could hold the instrumental optimist position as a historical thesis as an addition to holding the intrinsic optimist position. But most of those who are attracted to making any kind of fuss about instrumental optimism are drawn to it because they are suspicious of the Platonic picture about the internal value of philosophy. Indeed I'd argue that unless one makes the stronger case that not only instrumental optimism is true but also that philosophy could have no other source of worth as an intellectual activity, the position is just a distraction from the central question—unless and until you've argued that philosophy can't have worth apart from its good (non-philosophical) effects, the central question is going to be whether or not philosophy can have value on its own.

I see no difficulty here either. But the "centrality" of the question would seem to depend largely on your point of view. I can imagine scientists being more concerned about the instrumental value of philosophy to science, for example.

--Susurrus 06:44, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Clarity needed
I took the following excerpt from the section titled "Philosophy as intrinsically worthy." I have italicized my concern.

 * The perceived need for philosophy to prove itself in terms of some sort of scientific-technical progress is often diagnosed as a sort of creeping scientism, and repudiated as a drastic oversimplification of our intellectual life. This may have been the position of Ludwig Wittgenstein against the Vienna positivists--although if Wittgenstein saw any intrinsic value in philosophical inquiry he certainly didn't think that most people could profit from it.

This doesn't appear to be saying much. If philosophy is intrinsically worthy—i.e. is good in itself—then the question of people profiting from it is nonsense. From another point of view, furthermore, the discussion here precludes extrinsic worth—i.e. a good for some other end—so "profit" is meaningless. Perhaps the writer had a point, but I can't tell what it is. It probably deserves to be rewritten, either by the original author, or by someone else who knows Wittgenstein.

Vorpal Suds 21:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

What is this article about?
I am working on Metaphilosophy and copying some content from this article into our section on progress in philosophy. The bulk of this article appears to be about progress in philosophy, however, here and there, mostly in the lede, it seems to be about the concept of progress in general. The Progress disambiguation page says that this page is about progress in general, but it doesn't appear to be so.

I would like to suggest that this article be moved/renamed to "Progress in philosophy", and either a new article created under this name on progress as a philosophical concept, or, since Philosophy of history is already mostly about progress, just put a disambiguation header at the top redirecting people to Philosophy of history for a treatment on progress in general.

I'm going to do the latter now, but wait for comments before moving. --Pfhorrest (talk) 08:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Philosophical progress


text:
Talk:Thomas Picton

Questions
Mintguy you added a lot of information about Thomas Picton and made the comment "Adding content from EB11 to be cleaned and merged in" What is EB11? just curious

What about his fame (for eccenticity) by not wearing military uniform, instead a top hat and ordinary suit?

Peerage Denied
He was probably not granted a peerage - or for that matter his widow after his death - due to the belief he was not a gentleman which was almost a sine qua non for ennoblement. Wellington called him a 'rough foul-mouthed devil as ever lived' and certainyl not a gentleman Alci12 17:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He was put on trial for torturing an innocent teenage girl. He got off on a technicality, largely because the army needed his military skills in the Napoleonic Wars, but his general reputation was probably mud for the rest of his life.50.180.19.238 (talk) 00:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Talk page is meant to be for discussion of how to improve the article, not discussing what we think of the article subject. But it should perhaps be be noted that

 * 1) Ms Calderon was a teenager, but only an 'innocent girl' as far as was consistent with being guilty of having assisted her lover to rob the man whose mistress she was of a very large sum
 * 2) Picton did not get off on a technicality; the jury at his retrial found him to have acted without malice as well as finding that judicial torture was legal in Trinidad (On this point, they seem to have been led by the lack of malice to refuse to convict on a technicality - Picton's lawyers had proved only that judicial torture had been prevalent, rather than that it was legal)
 * 3) Given absence of malice, there would be no reason for Picton's reputation to be mud - at worst he would have been technically guilty because he had been wrongly advised on the law. From a modern perspective, torture is a no-no, and 'obeying orders' as a defence went out at Nuremburg, so Picton's defence looks dubious, but then from a modern perspective, some of the charges he was cleared of by the Privy Council look to be clearer bang-to-rights breaches of fundamental human rights. As far as his contemporaries were concerned, it would have been closer to the mark to say that in the Calderon case Picton had been convicted on a technicality, and left the retrial with no noticeable stain on his character.
 * 4) In any case, public opinion had little to do with peerage creation during the Regency; the Crown was still the fount of all honour, and unlikely to ennoble anyone they wouldn't be willing to invite to dinner   The History of Parliament website notes of Picton "he was known for his ‘independency of mind’, but his impatient, irascible nature, his caustic tongue and want of convivial gifts were ill suited to Parliament"; they were hardly likely to commend him to Prinny either.  Rjccumbria (talk) 19:17, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

The article claims that Calderon confessed, but provides no source. I've provided a source which said that despite the torture, she did not confess.Mikesiva (talk) 07:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Untitled
I have removed a line from the page that was someone's attempt at a joke saying he was founder of bestiality, pornography etc. Some bored moron's idea of a joke, no doubt. (Alexpritchard 22:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC))

New World
Coverage of Picton's stay and conduct, followed by his trial was completely one sided and did not quote facts

Have made many edits in the section, based on the award winning historical work by VS Naipaul, 'Loss of El Dorado' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puruvara (talk • contribs) 06:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, quite a lot of opinion seems to have crept in either explicitly in the treatment of facts (many felt that the high bail reflected his guilt !); and some of the facts are not all they might be; for example the many charges laid against Picton were decided upon by the Privy Council; the trial before the King's Bench was on the single charge of the judicial torture of Luisa Calderon. As I recall reading the Naipaul book (a'historical work' rather than a history) years ago, I thought his argument was was not that Picton was a brutal monster, but that the system was brutal. (( Picton's defence was in part along those lines: if you thought torture was brutal, look at the slave codes of British colonies; and then ask yourself what would happen under English law to a servant who was party to the theft of £1000 from her master's house. As far as the slave-owning classes were concerned, Fullarton (a Whig MP with strong humanitarian tendencies) was the odd man out)). I will see if I can make time to come back to this Rjccumbria (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Picton vs. Crauford or Rowlond Hill.
Glover states in his work "Welling As A Military Commander", that Piction was a good division commander but it was above his abilities to lead a larger unit.

One of Wellington's main disadvantages was the lack of field-commanders who were able to lead and administer corps sized units. Beside Hill there weren't so many. --88.153.182.170 (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Burial Place
Although he was originally 'buried' at St Georges, Hanover Square 'the family tomb';- he was later transferred to the Crypt of St. Paul's, I believe, where he's buried 'alongside' Wellington et al. 92.41.240.139 (talk) 22:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring
An editor is continuously adding extensive additional material on Rosetta Smith to this article. Other editors have removed it on the basis that Smith is already mentioned further up the article, and this is the article about Picton, not about Smith. The edit waring editor should respect WP:BRD Dormskirk (talk) 22:00, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Can someone add a pronunciation statement in the lead section? Is it "Pik-ton", "Pie-ton", or something else? Masato.harada (talk) 07:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Thomas Picton


text:
Donnelly Drive

Donnelly Drive (Ottawa Road #2) is a rural road in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

The road runs along the western bank of the Rideau River from Burritts Rapids to Reevecraig Road South. Between these two points, Donnelly Drive passes through Becketts Landing and passes by Rideau River Provincial Park.

The eastern portion of Donnelly Drive was originally part of Ontario Highway 16. It runs along the Rideau Canal waterway, which was a major trade route in the early 1800s. It also runs close to the border of the city of Ottawa and the United Counties of Leeds And Grenville, which is the Rideau River.

Donnelly Drive turns into Heritage Road once it reaches Burritts Rapids.

title: Donnelly Drive