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Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive 8

New info
I added more info about Teresa's charity work. Greenmountainboy 23:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Looks good to me. There's a whole chapter in Chatterjee's book (not in the online version) about the long campaign by Muggeridge and leading Catholics to get MT the Nobel Prize, I might include some information from that when things have cooled down a bit. It caused quite a bit of resentment in India because Mahatma Gandhi never received the prize.—Eloquence

 * Yes, that would be ok, but I would wait until the "conflict" dies down a little. Greenmountainboy 23:58, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Sure. BTW, the book is definitely worth reading and not polemic at all for the most part. I think it would greatly increase the quality of this debate if everyone involved in it would familiarize themselves with the depth of the arguments Chatterjee makes (he also cites most of the other critics, including many former employees of the order). In contrast, virtually all biographies of MT completely ignore the criticisms (and have highly religious overtones). The polarization in this article is very much reflected in the literature.—Eloquence

 * Yes, I'll be sure to check it out. Greenmountainboy 01:16, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Substandard medical care
There is quite a lot in the "substandard medical care" section which is not directly relevant to Mother Teresa, such as a description of the rooms at the home for the dying, the lack of facilities etc. Is there a good reason for keeping this here, rather than moving it to Missionaries of Charity, or even a new page like Home for the Dying? I recognise the article says "Dr. Fox specifically held Teresa responsible" for these things, but I don't see that moving them to an article which focuses on the home and it's medical conditions more specifically would be a bad thing. Obviously a summary would remain here. Any objections? Angela. 05:03, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * I fully agree. gbog

 * The Louden criticism could be moved to Missionaries of Charity and briefly summarized in one sentence with a link to that article. The Fox criticism referred to a home directly run and operated by Mother Teresa, directly held her responsible for the conditions, and as such, belongs here.—Eloquence

 * That's what I thought you'd say. :) Hmmm. Didn't I say I wasn't going to get involved with this? Angela. 08:52, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Secret Baptism title
Seen a discussion on this title. "Secret baptism" is not correct as it appear that MT didn't made a secret of it. "Baptism without clear will to convert" is unclear and POV by itself (subtly arguing that baptism should be accompanied with a will to convert). The best title I found is "Controversial religious activities". Any objections? gbog 05:09, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't think Baptism without clear will to convert is pov. That's exactly what happened. Controversial religious activities sounds worse to me. Angela. 05:16, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * For God's sake, I'm native to English, and "baptism without clear will to convert" even makes me avert my eyes; that's hideously awkward.

 * OK. How about "Dubious deathbed conversions"? I think that is much more euphonius. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 06:44, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)

 * Dubious seems more POV to me. Angela. 09:09, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Even if it's not pov, Baptism without clear will to convert is a complex title involving two religious matters (baptism and convertion) that, if subtitle is this way, should be explained shortly in the article (to lighten the differences between both). As I am not sure that MT article is the right place for such a religous explanation, I would prefer another subtitle, if possible. A possibility could be Dying's baptism but, as it is to be under Critics section, it is may be a little bit implying that to baptize a dying is "bad". What about Criticized religious activities or simply religious activities, which could also involve others critics like proselytism and so on? gbog 05:51, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't think the matter was worth even mentioning in the article, if the only think happening was baptism of the dying. It is the conversion that is the issue here. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 06:56, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)

 * If it's already under the criticisms subheading, do we need to say anything in this subheading about it being criticised? Would baptisms, or maybe conversions to Catholicism of the dying suffice? I disagree with gbog that having such a title in the criticisms section implies that this means all baptisms are to be criticised. Angela. 09:09, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Without attribution

 * She perceived evangelisation as her central goal, with her care of the poor a secondary one, involving the bringing of "Christ to the poor." (who said that?)

 * Don't know who added this, but it's one of those stock phrases applied to MT, like "poorest of the poor". I suspect it refers to the way many Catholic publications described her (see Google). If it bothers you, we can remove it.—Eloquence

 * Not sure we speak about the same thing. I'm wondering who said that "she perceived evangelization blabla".gbog

 * Patients were left with nothing to do and nowhere to go. Families were strongly discouraged from visiting their relatives at the home. (in fact, all those two inflated paragraph on volunteer Mary Louden that didn't accept to adapt to Indian confort level seem to me very strange here, except if fairly balanced with another volunteer's writing)

 * Moved to Missionaries of Charity. The claim that she didn't want to "adapt to Indian comfort level" is of course POV.—Eloquence

 * Yeah, it's my pov, or my at least guess, but I don't write it in the article.gbog

 * Mother Teresa maintained secrecy of her order's financial situation and instructed her employees not to keep detailed records (who said that?)

 * Good question. It was in one of the witness accounts, but I don't find it at the moment. I have removed this for now. See and  for the lack of disclosure of her accounts.—Eloquence

 * There is an accusation that funds donated for relief work for the sick and poor were actually diverted to missionary work in non-Christian countries. (who said that?)

 * That was redundant with the following sentence. Removed.—Eloquence

 * However, many members of the Hindu and Islamic faith were critical of this alleged baptism programme, seeing the idea as disrespectful of their faiths and beliefs. (who said that?)

 * I didn't write that, apparently added to balance the previous para (which itself is a bit fluffy). I removed it for now until we find some actual publications by Hindus criticizing the practice (Chatterjee is an atheist.)—Eloquence

 * Mother Teresa did not disclose her order's financial situation except where she was required to do so by law. (who said that?)
 * By the way, is there any obligation to do so if Law does not require it? Just in case I have to show my Goverment all my money even though they do not ask for it. Pfortuny 18:44, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * NEW: Mother Teresa has also been criticized (by who?) because she supported Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's suspension of democracy in 1975, and her son, Sanjay Gandhi, in his unpopular population control campaign.

 * NEW: In this context her care of the poor was not even a secondary one, The primary being bringing "Christ to the poor." and the secondary being bringing poor to christ, regardless of their prior faith. (who said that? removed from article until attribution)

Imply that a POV is better than another

 * Teresa's belief in the centrality of Christ and Roman Catholicism may have led her to believe that it was morally right to baptise Hindus and Muslims into Christianity in this manner, reflecting the pre-Vatican II belief that salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church. (Implies that "baptize Hindus..." is morally wrong.)

 * I rephrased the "morally right" part. Better?—Eloquence

 * Much better, but there is still a pov issue: Who says that "MT beliefs may have led her to..." I'll try to fix it.

 * Fox conceded that the regimen he observed included cleanliness, the tending of wounds and sores, and kindness, but he noted that the sisters' approach to managing pain was disturbingly lacking. (Imply that managing pain is a good thing. I'd replace "concede" by "wrote" and "noted" by "denounced")

 * "Disturbingly lacking" is a quote. It should have been in quotation marks.—Eloquence

 * In Catholicism, the combination of charitable works and evangelism has played a central role in the actions of some religious orders. (Because preceding paragraph is talking about Christian belief, this sentence implies that evangelism as not played a central role in Protestantism, what is highly debatable.)

 * No opinion on that.—Eloquence

 * I'll try to fix this pov issue.

Other stuff
And a very strange thing grabbed in the end of "relationships":

 * There is no suggestion that she was aware of any theft before accepting the donation in either case. (It is as if an article in Wikipedia had to write, at the end of a debate: "this is written from a neutral point of view". If this sentence has been added and accepted here, if one feels that this sentence is useful here (and I do), it BECAUSE the preceding text is actually suggesting such a bad thing)

 * It is written from the NPOV and factual, this is merely a clarification to avoid misunderstandings.—Eloquence

 * It would be better to avoid "misunderstandings" by improving the text itself.gbog

Something else I would like to understand: Susan Shields alleged that Mother Teresa's order engaged in secret baptisms of Hindus and Moslems in its facilities. What does Shields means with "secret baptism". Does any baptism have to be publicised? I guess she means that those baptism where made without asking to the Muslims or Hindu religious leaders, but this thing shouldn't be under "criticist section, as Wikipedia don't have to decide whether it's ok or not to baptize someone without religious leaders agreement. What I would personally do here is to remove that paragraph until further discussion, and may be place it later out of critics section. If no one disagree, I will do that soon.gbog

 * Yes, that should not be under the criticism section. Also, Teresa obviously said that her order baptised people of other religions, so the passage shouldn't make the practise sound like a cover up. Greenmountainboy 15:03, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)~

 * I thought about that issue but didn't find anything to address it. Add a new main section titled "debates"? Not very convincing... gbog

 * She offered to resign her position as head of the order. (When?)

Parts needing rework
Moved parts from article that could need rework

Religious mess
In Christian belief, charity is a duty imposed on followers of Jesus Christ by scripture. Although many Protestant denominations believe salvation comes only through faith, with charitable works a duty of every Christian, Roman Catholicism places considerable emphasis on the performance of good works as a necessary (but not sole) condition of salvation.

In Catholicism, the combination of charitable works and evangelism has played a central role in the actions of some religious orders. To their defenders, the actions of Mother Teresa and her followers fulfilled that tradition. Her critics, however, viewed Mother Teresa as being preoccupied with the furtherance of Catholicism and its causes, rather than with alleviating poverty or offering medical help to the poor she treated. They also claim that Teresa gave a false impression of the nature of her work.

Defenders of the order argue that missionary activity was the central part of Teresa's calling. She perceived evangelisation as her central goal, with her care of the poor a secondary one, involving the bringing of "Christ to the poor." Stern magazine alleged the (Protestant) Assembly of God charity serves 18,000 meals daily in Calcutta, many more than all the Mission of Charity homes together.

 * I think that "religious mess" belongs in the mission of charity article, not teresa's bio. Everyone agree? Greenmountainboy 16:50, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I do. But there will be a hudge POV issue in Missionaries of Charity! :) gbog 17:01, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Medical care refactoring
In medical care: He observed that doctors were called in irregularly, leaving decisions about patient care to be made by the sisters and volunteers (some of whom had medical knowledge). replaced with ''He observed that sisters and volunteers, some of whom had no medical knowledge, had to take decisions about patient care, because of the lack of doctors in the hospice. '' My idea is to avoid the soften parenthesis, because it showed that the main sentence was to strong in critics. May be my refactor don't work. Just try another one or tell me try another one. (btw, I'm not sure that "lack" and "doctor" are words that "go together well"...)

There have been a series of reports documenting inattention to medical care in the order's facilities moved to the end of paragraph.

Secular views versus religious views
I would like to include positive secular views to counter the secular criticism. Eloquence: you said that secular views were negative, and catholic views were positive, so I think it might be good to include positive views from secular figures. Greenmountainboy 17:03, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC) :

Positive views of Mother teresa
Although there have been some negative secular views on Mother Teresa, there have also been many positive secular views. The former U.N. Secretar-General Javier Perez de Cuellar, for example, said "She is the United Nations. She is She is peace in the world." Nawaz Sharif, the Prime Minister of Pakistan said that Teresa was "A rare and unique individual who lived long for higher purposes. Her life-long devotion to the care of the poor, the sick and the disadvantaged was one of the highest examples of service to humanity."

"An example of selfless devotion to charity. I hope she can be a good example to all charity workers and philanthropists." Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad

"A rare and unique individual who lived long for higher purposes. Her life-long devotion to the care of the poor, the sick and the disadvantaged was one of the highest examples of service to humanity." Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minister of Pakistan

The Chairman of the Nobel Peace Prize panel, Francis Sejersted, said Mother Teresa stood out "as an example of true self-sacrifice in humanitarian work." She was awarded the prize in 1979.

"This evening, there is less love, less compassion, less light in the world. She leaves us a strong message, which has no borders and which goes beyond faith: helping, listening, solidarity." French President Jacques Chirac

"A loss to the entire humanity. She will be deeply missed in our efforts to build international peace, and a just, caring and equitable world order." South African President Nelson Mandela

"The humanity of the world has lost its mother." Congress Party President Sitaram Kesri

Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral called her "an apostle of peace and love."

 * Not bad. But, according to Village Pump (bottom), Eloquence said he will not discuss here for a moment. I am a little bit more in the mood to rearrange and filter few things where we still feel an underlying flamewar, but feel free to add what you want. I suggest a new section "Quotations on Mother Teresa", or something like that. gbog

 * Ok, but I will call it "secular views of Mother Teresa" Greenmountainboy 17:22, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Although there have been some negative secular views on Mother Teresa, there have also been many positive secular views. The former U.N. Secretar-General Javier Perez de Cuellar, for example, said "She is the United Nations. She is She is peace in the world." Nawaz Sharif, the Prime Minister of Pakistan said that Teresa was "A rare and unique individual who lived long for higher purposes. Her life-long devotion to the care of the poor, the sick and the disadvantaged was one of the highest examples of service to humanity."

Unexplained revert
User:Cimon Avaro had apparently reverted my work on the page. If he want the picture back, or if he disagree with new subtitles, he should discuss here, or do them on the page. He even didn't give any comment in "summary" box. He may have misunderstood few things about how Wikipedia works. Or It's me, again, that is wrong when I think that Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia.gbog 17:37, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Well removing an image is hardly collaborative. I don't know about the captions.  It is possible that a decision concerning the captions had already been made. Greenmountainboy 17:41, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * If Cimon Avaro wants the pictures to go back on the page, I don't care at all. But why not saying it simply?

 * Btw, do you agree with the subtitles I added?

 * I didn't see the subtitles. Greenmountainboy 22:45, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Pictures
Hey, I like the bw photo of her with the child, who put it there? Congratulations! That's good taste. By the way, I like it very much without any caption. Pfortuny 18:48, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I think its gmb. It's nice, but I think it's may be a little bit two much with the first photo. If fact I prefer the new one, and I d like to move or remove first one, if nobody disagree. Pfortuny, do you see clearly the photo in hospice. On my screen, it is blurred someway. Maybe it could be possible to find a better one (and smaller, if possible).gbog

I'd recommend moving the one of MT with the child down the page a bit. Too many positive images too high in the text can POV the text and make it too pro-MT. It should be shifted lower down. But the colour one of MT should be kept. A good quality colour shot should always be used at the start to make the page visually appealing to a reader. And as she was a devotee of the Rosary, an image of her with rosary beads seems apt. FearÉIREANN 01:41, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The hospice photo looks low quality to me and compared to other photos out there (in the wp, I mean) is worse (I am speaking of quality). I think (Not sure) that photo is highly loaded so I would ask others about its removal. I really would like a better one (and with better taste, but this is as everything a matter of tastes).
 * I agree with you on the first part: I like the bw more than the colour one with the Rosary. But again I am not the only one to give an opinion.
 * Thanks Gbog for your many efforts. Pfortuny 18:57, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think a good colour picture is a must. I think the opening one is fine. As to the hospice, it is a poor picture that is also too big. But I think some picture of the hospice should be included. If no other one is around, this one should be kept but smaller. FearÉIREANN 01:41, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks. Good night. gbog

 * I added the bw one. (It had actually been uploaded by my brother I think, but it had been removed) Greenmountainboy 21:52, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see how the keating photograph's caption is relevent. plus the long caption makes it look stupid. Can we just change the caption to "Teresa with Keating? I will remove the long caption it if no one disagrees. Greenmountainboy 22:50, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I think a longer caption than what you propose would make sense. Remember not everyone reads the full text. On its own a picture of Teresa with Keating would be meaningless unless someone had read the text. A good caption should lure a reader into understanding the picture and so wanting to read the article for more information. Someone scamming the page would otherwise find a picture of MT with some unknown person called Keating devoid of context. FearÉIREANN 01:41, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * also, I think the Pope John Paul II caption is a little too long also. Greenmountainboy 22:50, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Agreed.FearÉIREANN 01:41, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The bw photo appears really too near the beginning. Yes it should be moved down if the color one is kept. Definitely, the "home of the dying" photo is bad quality (unfocused, not a problem of the digitalization but of the camera, I guess) and way too big.Pfortuny 08:56, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

-- I have modified hospice picture. Hope it is better on your screens. I have also replaced first picture with a more neutral one. A little bit dark. Tell me if you don't like. I can brighten it a bit. I also want to move downward the one with the child in arms. gbog

The more I think about it, the less I do believe that MT&Keaton and MT&Duvalier reach encyclopedic standards. I reminds more The Bild or any of those cheap newspaper than Britannica. And removing them will not touch neutrality of article, because facts are in the text (no needs to add proofs for them). gbog 16:39, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Wik doesn't like my picture for top, so I keep it here for evaluation. The reasons why I prefer mine (it's not only bacause it's mine :) ) is because it shows only her face, without christian attributes. gbog

 * I like the bw again, from the photographic viewpoint although it is quite dark (if it is enhanced I definitely like it more), but... do you really think her cloak is not a christian attribute? :)

 * Ough! You are rigth! But, in a way, this cloak is really her (her order, I guess) and not as christian as the rosary. Could be muslim, no? The second one is better? Wik, say it if you don't like! (not sure he hears me)

 * The home for the dying photo looks now much better.
 * Thanks for doing all the job. Pfortuny 17:01, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I still think the home for the dying picture is ugly and something else should be substituted for it. Greenmountainboy 17:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I searched and didn't find any better. gbog

I think the 'dying' picture is necessary to contextualise the nature of the treatment given by MT's order. As to the b&w picture above, I think it is positively hideous! :-) I think the current picture is superb in quality, image and colour. The proposed picture is of inferior quality, more of a character study (and so POV) than an observation shot like the current picture. IMHO character study portraits should be avoided unless, as happens in Saddam Hussein, they themselves are the issue, in Saddam's case through deliberately constructed images to convey his message. The current MT image, through respectful of her, is the one that the media and other sources would use in preference to character study portraits. FearÉIREANN 21:57, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't understand why character study is pov in itself. gbog

Quotations
Changing topic, I really dislike the "positive quotations" as they are (quite out of context and look quite forced into the article). If there is a better way to include them (but as they are now I would prefer them out). The section title is at least strange. But then and again, I am not alone in this world so my opinion counts one. Pfortuny 08:56, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I fully agree on your comments. No time to check this now, but feel free to find another picture for Hospice and try to edit. Other idea: find pictures where "quotations" could be used as captions. gbog

 * Feel free to remove the positive quotations. Greenmountainboy 13:26, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree in the current form they are wrong. I think that POV the article excessively with a pro-MT slant. I would suggest moving them to the end of the article and rename the section comments about Mother Teresa and include also quotes from Hitchens and other critics. Their only value at present is to nail the nonsense about 'secular versus religious' perspectives on MT. In reality she had her critics amongst religious people, and supporters in the secular sphere. Remember also to diffrentiate between reactive official statements (comments at her death which by nature would be positive and written by speechwriters, polemical attacks) and other sources removed from reactive or propagandistic contexts that may be more honest. A broad source of quotes would help. FearÉIREANN 21:57, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I try to move them before. Question: is it normal to bolden those names?

 * It is better at the end but anyway... Well, if nobody else complains... But I do not see that they fit in at all.
 * I don't think the names should be bold anyway. Pfortuny 17:01, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Eloquence did complain on them on his talk page. I won't cry if they disappear.gbog

 * They could be encorporated into a "praise of mother teresa" section which talks about all the wonderful things people think of her. Greenmountainboy 21:51, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think it only fair if Eloquence is not around (I've heard he is going to stay away for a month) not to include these. On the other hand, if a "praisee of MT" is written, I would suggest including it here beforehand. I am doing this for two reasons:
 * a) Because I do not like them as they are and gbog has said sth not quite contrary.
 * b) Because I think such a loaded and nonstandard section must be at least clearly discussed with people who have devoted so much time to this article as Eloquence.

In any case, this has been quite bold and I am aware it may be reverted immediately. Pfortuny 22:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I think it may have been too bold, as many people including Jtdirl, Adam Carr, and I'm sure others, have not discussed the removal of the quotations. I think the section is just as loaded as "criticisms of mother teresa" but thats just me.  I don't plan on reverting your edit as someone else can always do so later. Greenmountainboy 23:06, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

POV/NPOV
When do you think we will be able to remove the ugly pov header? What should be refactored before? Is npov oasis still very far? Jtdirl, we are waiting for your comments! (others also, for sure)gbog

 * Now, I'm no pessimist, but I think that a long time will pass before this happens. A lot of people on wikipedia will always have qualms with articles such as Teresa no matter how NPOV they happen to be.  Greenmountainboy 21:48, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It isn't the joke article it used to be but it still isn't perfect. But if there is a general consensus that the header can go, so be it. The header was put in because there was a consensus that the article was POV, with only one person insisting that it wasn't, largely because it reflected his opinion. FearÉIREANN 21:57, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Nice to hear that. Is pov header is removed with consensus, I will feel that our time hasn't been spent in vain, and we will launch few fireworks for that!

 * Again, what I would really like to do before that wonderful milestone, is to remove those two tabloid pictures that only show that someone wanted to proof articles allegations (what is not, I guess, the common use for pictures in WP). I will try also to refactor a little bit the "medical care" section. gbog

 * Sorry to meddle.................. But please do discuss the changes here when (better before) doing them, just in case someone opposes (I am worried by Eloquence's absence, but of course this is a wiki, as well). For the sake of clarity would you mind signing "completely"? (just write ~ at the end). Thanks. gbog 09:58, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * You forgot "no" in "nowiki" tag, so your signature didn't appear at all :) But you are right, I should write full signature. There is plenty of wiki customs that I don't know well. For example, as I'm used to usenet, I feel that it is a little bit hard to follow complex discussions and know who said what, when someone (me for instance) have answered in the middle of a paragraph. Anyway, history page can help, but it's not so easy to use (and I have a slow conn) See upstairs for medical care discussion. gbog 09:58, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Apologies for the mess. Pfortuny 12:05, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

New Section
Although there have been some negative secular views on Mother Teresa, there have also been many positive secular views. The former U.N. Secretar-General Javier Perez de Cuellar, for example, said "She is the United Nations. She is She is peace in the world." Nawaz Sharif, the Prime Minister of Pakistan said that Teresa was "A rare and unique individual who lived long for higher purposes. Her life-long devotion to the care of the poor, the sick and the disadvantaged was one of the highest examples of service to humanity." These views of Teresa are far from uncommon, and are held by most respected world leaders.

 * this is a work in progress. The italics are POV IMO and might need to be changed to NPOV by someone like Eloquence. Greenmountainboy 23:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * This is something quite different from the list of quotations we had. A paragraph like this might be included in an Encyclopedia, yes. Pfortuny 09:58, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * (A mistake in nowiki tags made this looking like I wroten it, but it was written by Pfortuny, I guess. I'm not sure that this paragraph could be included like this in an Encyclopedia, but I think it is better than the previous list) gbog 10:34, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Some comments from Adam
I withdrew from working on this article some time ago when I decided it was impossible to argue with Aplank-Alexandros. Now that I am told he has withdrawn, I have come back for a look.

Some comments:

The biographical section is much as I wrote it some time ago, and still reads quite well, if I say so myself. But problems bebin almost at once after that.

 * Baptisms of the dying

Why does this come before the heading Criticism? Surely it should come after.

 * I recognise that this is not in the right place, but putting under criticism in pov in a way, as it would imply that baptism of dyings is something bad in itself. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree. I think it would be less POV to integrate some of the criticism into the main article body, but that might be a bad idea.  Greenmountainboy 17:57, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"Some critics alleged that Teresa had pre-Vatican II belief that salvation is only possible through the Roman Catholic Church."

Well of course that's what she thought, why resort to these mysterious "some critics"? She was a totally unreconstructed pre-Vatican II Catholic, and proud it it. Why not just say so? If you have an allegation from her stating this, it's ok.

"As long as the person agreed, secular and religious defenders didn't see any problem here."

Whose opinion is this? Who are these "secular defenders"?

 * One example of them is given in ext links, see gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * In fact, James Martin is religious, and Simon Leys is secular, I guess.gbog

This sentence is bunk. Are we to believe that lifelong Muslims and Hindus agreed to be baptised as Catholics on their deathbeds?Of couse they didn't, and in most cases they had no idea what was going on because (a) they were poor and illiterate people and because (b) they were dying. This was baptism of adults without their informed consent, which is (I believe) illegal under canon law.

 * ... agree to be baptised Why not? Maybe they aren't so tied to their own religion as you seem to think. I have no idea about that, but I would not say that because those people were poor and old, they were more stupid than other, and then weren't able to decide by themselves, without asking me and you. And if I do believe what she said in the quote, she asked them before. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Abortion and contraception

"They claim she frequently spoke against both in meetings with high level government officials and regret that, in her Nobel Prize acceptance speech, she called abortion the "greatest destroyer of peace"."

Well of course she did - that is the official position of the Catholic Church after all. Why is this listed under Criticism? It should be under the biographical section, stated as a fact, not as a criticism.

 * Yes, this is an absurd section. If someone wants to know about the catholic beliefs, they can go read Catholicism. In addition, I think she said more important things in the Prize speach which should replace the existing quote. Greenmountainboy 18:00, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't understand you very well. Baptisms of the dying are also facts, aren't they? gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Mrs Gandhi

"Mother Teresa has also been criticized because she supported Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's suspension of democracy in 1975, and her son, Sanjay Gandhi, in his unpopular population control campaign."

This should be either documented, or deleted.

 * I agree. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"As many other criticised religious people, Mother Teresa had a short response to her critics: "No matter who says what, you should accept it with a smile and do your own work"."

What other prominent religious people have dealt with serious criticism in this way? This sentence is just propaganda.

 * The Pope has been criticized also, I guess. I read somewhere that the main problem in writing religious article is that religious person don't feel the need to defend themselves with arguments. But anyway, "As many..." could be removed without great loss, imho. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Donations

"Defender claim the received those donation before thefts were uncovered and that she had to lobby for her cause, therefore had to deal with dictators in poor countries and with thieves in rich ones."

This sentence is atrocious English, and is also rubbish. What "defender" said this? If MT's defenders can't find any actual quotations from people defending her actions, they can't just make them up or insert their own opinions. If this is the best they can do, they should retire.

 * This sentence is my own poor work and surely need to be rewroten. Please do it. But if we remove all the "defense" sentences, we will go back to a heavy criticsm part without counterpart, what is annoying. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"Mother Teresa and her possible defenders apparently didn't feel a need to directly answer those allegations. There is no dearth of expressed opinion about the motives of such criticism, however. Even though no need was felt to rebut the accusations even to point out factual mistakes, some proponents of the order argue that missionary activity was the central part of Teresa's calling, and that she perceived evangelisation as her central goal."

Again, who are these un-named "defenders"? Why can't we have a quote from one of them? The second sentence is meaningless - who is writing this illiterate rubbish? "Factual mistakes." Which factual mistakes? List them, refute them, don't just allege them and make no response.

 * Diversion of donations

This is actually the most serious allegation against MT, that she either practised or condoned large-scale fraud on those who donated money to her order, and yet this section has been almost entirely removed to another article, as though MT had nothing to do with it.

 * I think that Angela moved this part, because donations were done to the order. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

All in all this is still a deplorably bad article, apart from the strictly biographical section. It is bad because these "defenders" of MT are all anonymous and don't have any actual facts to put forward, just vague statements in bad English to the effect that MT was a saint and therefore none of this nasty stuff can be true. This isn't good enough.

 * It is not good enough, but it is much better than before and is absolutly not intend to say MT was a saint. The problem with previous article was mainly that it was much more criticist than, say, the one about Mao Zedong. gbog 17:27, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This whole section ought to be rewritten, by someone who has the time and resources to go away and research it properly. Then they can post the results of their research and see what people have to say. At the moment it's a complete dog's breakfast.

Merry Xmas

Adam 14:04, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I haven't read your comments yet but for me it is a great piece of news to have you back here. Pfortuny 16:29, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps you had better read my comments before you get too enthused :) Adam 08:06, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I have and I am convinced your "stay" is better for the article (which I always thought). I know you want to make good articles, and that's enough for me. Facts are facts despite what they may be, who may state them or how, isn't it? And a historian usually has a better way to present them. I am the first not to want a kind of "this part is pro-MT" and "this part is against-MT" article. And we tend to differentiate between articles and talk pages, don't we? :) As a matter of fact, I am concerned by Eloquence's temporal withdrawal. Pfortuny 21:17, 26 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive 8


text:
Talk:Starsky & Hutch

Overview
". . . episodes of 48 minutes and a single 90 minute pilot . . ."

Perhaps I am unaware of the usual practice in designating runtimes (which is why I am asking here instead of just editing), but listing "48-minute" episodes and a "90-minute" pilot together does not seem quite accurate. The actual content of each of the episodes is 48 minutes long (comprising, with commercial breaks, a standard hour-long episode). On the other hand, the actual content of the "90-minute" pilot only comes to 70 minutes; with commercial breaks it would presumably run 90 minutes or longer.

Of course (as I have said) the double standard here may be an understood convention of which I am unaware. But if it is not, the pilot should be designated, like the episodes, by its runtime without commercial breaks — 70, not 90, minutes. Sara 00:24, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry I'm a bit too young to have seen the TV Show but I thought the movie was alright. In the movie wasn't Hutch the dumb one? It says here he was the smarter one. Redwolf24 23:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It depends on how you look at it, Starsky acts more professionaly than Hutch, but Hutch clearly has more street-smarts and intelligence than Starsky. Like Redwolf, I'm too young to have seen the TV show and I'm basing this on the movie. Haddock420 12:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * How can you be too young to have seen a TV show? I'm 15 and I've seen it. Some people just aren't ambitious enough when it comes to watching television!

 * They changed the characters around for the movie. Don't ask me why. Jonathan Gr 12:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Torino or Gran Torino?
OK, so in the music video for Barenaked Ladies' One Week, there's a "Gran Torino" with a Starsky & Hutch paint job. The article says "Torino," but was it a "Gran Torino" as the music video wou have us believe? --Jnelson09 22:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

In the 1972-79 Torino lineup there were several subseries: base "Torino", middle series "Gran Torino", and top series "Gran Torino Brougham"(there also was a "Gran Torino Sport" from 1972-75). The Gran Torino was the series used on TV and the Stiller/Wilson movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.10.170 (talk) 17:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit
This diff seen in recent changes needs citation and even with that it still seems inappropriate. I am too young to remember it and have never seen any of the episodes that I can recall. Were references like that even made about TV shows in the 70s? -John Lake 22:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in fact. Many in the Hollywood press didn't know to classify the closer-than-brothers relationship that Starsky & Hutch had, so they made references to possible homosexual overtones; in fact some fans of the show took it that way. In the mid '80s, I started seeing S&H magazines and decided to check them out; to my horror, I found that a lot of them portrayed S&H as lovers. This picked up even more as the Internet gained popularity. I decided to add clarification and a link to show this.-Dmstarsky 20:16, 17 July 2007  (UTC)

Theme song
The show's theme song was recorded by the James Taylor Quartet.

Although the James Taylor Quartet recorded a version of the theme song, it is highly unlikely that it is the one we hear in the series. As stated in the corresponding Wikipedia article James Taylor Quartet released their first single in 1985, 10 years after the pilot was broadcast. I cannot provide the actual composer, though.

Tom Scott wrote the version heard on the James Taylor Quartet recording,the version heard in the last series can be found on one of Tom Scott's cd.If you want a to hear a version closer to the Tom Scott theme music in earlier episodes,listen to the version recorded by the Ventures,in 1977,released as a United Artist single with "Charlie's Angels" on the B side. The theme used in "Savage Sunday" the US pilot,was written by Lalo Schifrin which is basically a rewrite of "Magnum Force",theme and variations.

Mark Snow,wrote and released a similar version of his S&H theme on an LP,from Weekend,records around 1978,it was almost identical to the one used during the third season,as shown on BBC ONE in the UK,which is not the same as the DVD running order,released by Columbia/Sony in the UK. {Eloidle 01:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Eloidle }

I have now added my accurate input into the theme music section,this now reflects a correct understanding of the various themes.Since the trivia section,has been removed,the information from my original discussion and trivia input are now woven into the theme music section.{Eloidle 01:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Eloidle}

Cleanup
It says, that the article required cleanup. Now, I'm not sure about this, but I'd suggest to delete the five over-long summaries and replace them with short summaries, but write one for every episode. I'd just like to know: Who thinks this is a good idea? Jonathan Gr 12:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Split Episode Lists
Once they're all into tables, they'll be taking up quite a lot of room. Split them into a new article "Starsky and Hutch Episodes" or suchlike?

It would give space to expand with episode summaries, at the very least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.151.205.155 (talk) 14:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the previous statements; we could use the space.Dmstarsky (talk) 17:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Cast
great article, but it seems to be missing a section about the cast --too bored to sign in, but writing my name in this post anyway12:16, 16 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.105.153.7 (talk)

 * I up this one ! What about the main cast ? the titular characters ?
 * 22:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC) Ivan Scott Warren (talk) 22:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Recycled Scripts?
I think the claim that most of the Season One scripts were 'actually existing scripts that were merely adapted to fit the series' needs a citation needed query. The only episodes I can find that are described as recycled scripts are "Survival" and "The Game" and neither of them are from Season One. Nelson crane (talk) 10:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Starsky & Hutch


text:
Silvio Dante

Silvio Manfred Dante is a fictional character on the HBO TV series The Sopranos, portrayed by Steven Van Zandt. He is the consigliere and right-hand man to Tony Soprano in the DiMeo crime family. John Magaro portrays a young Silvio Dante in the 2021 prequel film, The Many Saints of Newark.

Character biography
According to The Sopranos, A Family History, Silvio was born in June 1957 in West Orange, New Jersey. His father was Joseph "Beppo" Dante, of Calabrian origin, a member of Knights of Columbus and mob soldier who was gunned down in 1959. Silvio was a childhood friend of Tony Soprano. His early criminal activity often involved Tony and Jackie Aprile Sr. His original career plan was to be a professional singer, but this dream never materialized.

Despite this, Silvio has maintained a connection to show business through ownership of numerous clubs in North Jersey over the years, and in backing aspiring young starlets who come up through his clubs. Silvio's support was instrumental in ensuring Tony took over as capo following the death of his father. Through his association with the Soprano crew, Silvio formed friendships with Salvatore "Big Pussy" Bonpensiero and Paulie "Walnuts" Gualtieri.

Silvio is one of Tony's more level-headed associates. Where many of Tony's men immediately become hot-headed and readily resort to violence, Silvio generally helps to mediate situations and gets along with everyone. He accompanies Tony to most of his "sit-downs"—formal meetings within the organization to resolve disputes. Because of this, Tony relies on Silvio to be a clear-headed thinker and someone he can trust.

It was Silvio who reported to Tony that Uncle Junior planned to murder Pussy Malanga in Artie Bucco's restaurant and who was later entrusted with starting the fire which would ensure the original Vesuvio's burnt down, therefore not ruining its reputation. In the short and bloody war of 1999 with the Junior Soprano crew, Silvio helped Tony to plan hits on Chucky Signore and Mikey Palmice and remained supportive when Tony revealed that he had been seeing a therapist.

Silvio is most often the one to quote Mafia rules and norms when a tough decision is to be made, even if he ends up disagreeing with Tony. Silvio's move to consigliere once Tony becomes acting boss seems completely natural. Silvio remains Tony's most reliable adviser and enforcer, only displaying his aggression in a small number of incidents. One such is when Fat Dom Gamiello makes a remark about the late Vito Spatafore, which implied that Carlo Gervasi was gay.

An enraged Silvio attacked Fat Dom by hitting him in the back of the head with a handheld vacuum and then holding his arms behind his back, which allowed Carlo to stab Dom repeatedly in the abdomen with a large kitchen knife. In poker, Silvio often becomes foul-mouthed and paranoid. Silvio likes to do an impression of Al Pacino, specifically a scene from The Godfather Part III, which his friends find amusing.

Silvio's criminal interests include loan sharking and bookmaking but his day-to-day role is that of managing the Bada Bing, the most recent in a string of strip clubs that he has operated. "The Bing", as it is often referred to, is one of the crime family's major meeting spots, and doubles as a brothel. Silvio loves and cares about, and is a strong father to his teenage daughter Heather, whom he calls The Principessa. Silvio says that Heather disapproves of his profession, calling it "degrading to women". Tony has said to him, "You're a good father."

When his daughter's soccer coach was found to be involved with one of his young players, Silvio looked for vengeance but followed Tony's decision to let the authorities deal with him. Apart from periodic instances of adultery—Christopher says during his intervention in "The Strong, Silent Type" that Silvio was "fucking every slut you got working in the place"—it can be said that he loves his wife, Gabriella Dante (played by Steven Van Zandt's real-life wife Maureen Van Zandt), very much.

Silvio has a long record of executing traitors throughout the show, including Jimmy Altieri at the end of season 1, Salvatore "Big Pussy" Bonpensiero in season 2 (in league with Tony and Paulie), and Adriana La Cerva in season 5. All were killed when they were discovered to have been cooperating—or, in the case of Altieri, suspected to have been cooperating—with the FBI in their ongoing investigation of the Soprano crime family. Like Tony and Paulie, Bonpensiero's killing haunted Silvio. In Season 6, Silvio also carries out the execution of Burt Gervasi, garroting him after he discovers that he had been working with the Lupertazzi crime family.

Silvio's judgment wavered when he realized Tony was positioning Christopher Moltisanti as an intermediary between himself and the rest of the organization because of Christopher's and Tony's blood ties. This was made most apparent when Paulie was arrested on a gun charge and Tony made Christopher acting capo of his crew in Paulie's absence. Silvio responded by encouraging Gualtieri crew soldier Patsy Parisi to steal from the Esplanade construction site against Tony's and Christopher's orders.

Silvio also became embroiled in a conflict with Native American protesters over a Columbus Day celebration—something Tony saw as a distraction—and went so far as to get many of the family's associates involved in a violent altercation with the protesters. Silvio found it hard to let the conflict die even once Tony had exhausted all avenues of winning the dispute. Silvio did not take this uncharacteristic behavior any further and although Tony noticed it, nothing became of it. Silvio got a chance to vent his frustration with Christopher at an intervention for his drug problems that ended with Christopher being violently put in his place by Paulie and Silvio. Since Christopher returned from rehab, his relationship with Silvio seems to have returned to their previous friendly association.

Silvio maintains a realistic relationship with Paulie Gualtieri, well aware of Paulie's tight-fisted attitude towards money and dangerous tendencies. Silvio has remarked to Tony that they know that Paulie does not kick up his full amount. Silvio also tried to warn Paulie that his distractedness had been noticed when Paulie let his loyalties to the Soprano family waver, not long after Silvio's own crisis of faith in Tony. Paulie and Silvio argued about this—Paulie had been harboring resentment toward Silvio since his illness got Paulie into the Pine Barrens fiasco. However, it was not long before Paulie returned his attention to staying in Tony's good graces.

Silvio counseled Tony through difficult decisions about Richie Aprile, and his disputes with Ralph Cifaretto, Feech La Manna and Tony Blundetto. He is often forced to convince Tony to go against his impulses—something that he usually manages without setting off Tony's hair-trigger temper. More often than not, when Silvio has something on his mind but will not speak about it, Tony often senses this and gets him to speak up.

When Tony ends up in a coma after being shot by his uncle in a fit of dementia, it falls upon Silvio to take the reins as acting boss of the Soprano family. At first, Silvio seemingly enjoys the job, and even feels a degree of regret that he did not accept an offer from the late Jackie Aprile Sr. to become the boss back in the late 1990s. His wife Gabriella prompts him to consider the possibilities of a permanent change.

His ambitions quickly subside when he feels the immense pressure of being boss and begins to have asthma attacks brought on by anxiety, as later alluded to by Tony when he says, "All due respect, you got no fucking idea what it's like being #1". As boss, Silvio dealt effectively with Paulie in a dispute over the split of profits from a heist Paulie had undertaken following a tip from Vito Spatafore. However, Silvio was indecisive in his handling of a dispute between Vito and Bobby Baccalieri over a collection route.

After his return to the more comfortable role of consigliere, Silvio again counseled Tony about contentious issues. When Vito Spatafore was outed to the organization, Silvio convinced Tony of the need to restrain his desire to "give him a pass" because of the effect it would have on the other captains' view of his leadership. When Tony responded with distasteful jokes about Bobby's serious injury, a look from Silvio was enough to tell him he was being unfair.

When Vito came back from New Hampshire, Silvio said that there would be popular sentiment to get rid of him, but Tony initially decided to let Vito run a prostitution ring in Atlantic City. However, when Phil Leotardo confronted Tony about Vito being in New Jersey, Silvio and Tony both knew that they could not keep fighting with Phil over the issue and that if they wanted to keep the "no show" jobs, Vito would have to go. Silvio had always pushed for Vito to be taken care of and told Tony that it was the right move and not to beat himself up over the issue.

When Phil Leotardo and his men killed Vito (without permission from Tony), Tony told Silvio that it was not about Vito, it was about him. Silvio initially told Tony that they should go after one of Phil's men but Tony was trying to avoid a war and instead decided to blow up Phil's wire room in Sheepshead Bay.

Silvio and Carlo were at Satriale's Pork Store later that day when "Fat Dom" Gamiello came by. Dom started making jokes about Vito's homosexuality and implied that Carlo was homosexual. Silvio told Dom to leave, but when Dom continued his ridicule, anger got the best of the usually calm consigliere as he smashed his hand-held vacuum over Dom's head and held him while Carlo stabbed him to death. A short time afterward, Tony came by the shop to see them. Silvio advised Tony not to enter, but he couldn't stop Tony from finding Dom. Tony stormed out of the shop with Silvio right behind him telling Tony that "When you kill a made guy, this is what happens."

In the episode "Stage 5" Silvio was out at lunch with Gerry Torciano, the man Phil Leotardo wanted to take over as boss of the Lupertazzi family, when one of Doc Santoro's assassins killed Torciano. This outraged Tony, as Silvio could have been hurt during the altercation.

In the episode "The Blue Comet", it is revealed that the Lupertazzi family has recruited Burt Gervasi to begin a rebellion against Tony. Burt goes to Silvio to join in a coup d'état against the boss, but Silvio responds by strangling him to death at his home a short time later. Eventually, Phil Leotardo has contracts put out on Silvio, Bobby Bacala, and Tony in order to incapacitate the leadership of the family. Shortly after Bobby is killed, while Patsy Parisi drives Silvio outside of the Bada Bing club, a car moves in front of them, with two men coming out shooting multiple times. Silvio tries taking a pistol off of the back seat, only to be shot in the back. Silvio manages to grab his pistol in time while Parisi holds them off. Parisi manages to defend them, but soon the two men begin to target Silvio more. He is shot once more in the chest, while Patsy runs into the woods, fleeing for his life. Afterward, Silvio is rushed to the hospital and placed in an intensive care unit.

Paulie later tells Tony that Silvio survived the assassination attempt but is in a coma. The doctors say that he is unlikely to regain consciousness. In the final episode, an emotional Tony visits the still comatose Silvio, whose fate is not mentioned further.

Murders committed by Silvio

 * Cyril: Shot while trying to escape after being tortured and questioned by Dickie Moltisanti (1971)
 * James "Little Jimmy" Altieri: Shot for being a suspected informant. (1999)
 * Salvatore "Big Pussy" Bonpensiero: Shot by him, Paulie, and Tony for cooperating with the FBI. (2000)
 * Adriana La Cerva: Shot for being an informant. (2004)
 * Dominic "Fat Dom" Gamiello: Stabbed by Carlo Gervasi while Silvio held him down for making insulting comments to Carlo. (2006)
 * Burt Gervasi: Garroted for switching alliances to the Lupertazzi family during the war between the families. (2007)

Character origins
Sopranos creator David Chase was impressed with Van Zandt's humorous appearance and presence after seeing him induct The Rascals into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1997, and invited him to audition. Van Zandt, a guitarist best known for playing in Bruce Springsteen's E Street Band, had never acted before. He auditioned for the role of Tony Soprano, but both HBO and Van Zandt himself felt that the role should go to an experienced actor, so Chase decided to create a role specifically for Van Zandt. Van Zandt eventually agreed to star on the show as consigliere, Silvio Dante. His real-life spouse Maureen was cast as his on-screen wife Gabriella.

title: Silvio Dante


text:
1935 Quebec general election

The 1935 Quebec general election was held on November 25, 1935, to elect members of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Quebec, Canada. The incumbent Quebec Liberal Party led by Louis-Alexandre Taschereau was re-elected, defeating the Action libérale nationale, led by Paul Gouin, and the Quebec Conservative Party, led by Maurice Duplessis.

It was the fourth and final general election victory in a row for Taschereau, who had held office since 1920. He resigned less than seven months later due to a scandal.

The Action libérale nationale (ALN) was a newly formed party led by the son of former Liberal premier Lomer Gouin. It was established by former Liberals who had become dissatisfied with the party. The ALN and Conservatives formed an alliance, the Union Nationale, to contest this election. They merged after the election to become a single party, which soon became a dominant political force.

Nominations
There were 208 candidates nominated, of which five subsequently withdrew:

 * Wilfrid Bullock (Ind-Liberal, Shefford)
 * Wilfrid Labelle (ALN, Iberville), thus allowing Lucien Lamoureux (Liberal) to be reelected by acclamation
 * Roy Sasseville and René Mercier (Ind-Liberals, Gaspé-Nord)
 * Arthur Arcand (Ind-Liberal, Montréal–Sainte-Marie), in favour of Gaspard Fauteux (Liberal)

All three candidates returned by acclamation were incumbents:

 * Lucien Lamoureux (Lib, Iberville)
 * Peter Bercovitch (Lib, Montréal–Saint-Louis)
 * Avila Turcotte (Lib, Richelieu)

Controversy in Terrebonne
In Terrebonne, the election of Athanase David was contested on the ground that the ballot papers were not printed in the form prescribed under the Election Act. At the subsequent hearing, the judge ruled that all cast ballots were declared void. Immediately afterwards, the returning officer announced that, as this resulted in a 0-0 tie, he cast his deciding vote in favour of David.

The returning officer's action was considered to have been without precedent anywhere in the world in countries with parliamentary-style legislatures. The Conservatives lodged an appeal, but the result was upheld by the Quebec Court of Appeal in April 1936. David would become the only member of the Assembly in Quebec history to be elected on only one cast vote.

Results
! colspan=2 rowspan=2 | Political party ! rowspan=2 | Party leader ! colspan=4 | MPPs ! colspan=4 | Votes ! Candidates !1931 !1935 !± !# ! ± !% ! ± (pp) ! colspan="3" style="text-align:left;" | Total ! " colspan="3"| 90 ! " colspan="2"| 536,361 ! " colspan="2"| 100%
 * rowspan="3" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Government candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|Louis-Alexandre Taschereau
 * 90
 * 79
 * 47
 * 5
 * 249,586
 * 19,146
 * 46.53
 * 8.35
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 3
 * 615
 * 2,172
 * 0.11
 * 0.46
 * rowspan="3" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Union Nationale alliance
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|Paul Gouin
 * 53
 * 26
 * 26
 * 162,205
 * New
 * 30.24
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|Maurice Duplessis
 * 33
 * 11
 * 16
 * 5
 * 97,469
 * 115,754
 * 18.17
 * 25.37
 * rowspan="3" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Opposition candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 1,532
 * New
 * 0.29
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 94
 * 12
 * 0.02
 * rowspan="5" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Other candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 19
 * 1
 * 1
 * 21,587
 * 20,522
 * 4.02
 * 3.80
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 2,238
 * 1,757
 * 0.42
 * 0.32
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 998
 * New
 * 0.19
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 37
 * 547
 * 0.12
 * 20,522
 * 4.02
 * 3.80
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 2,238
 * 1,757
 * 0.42
 * 0.32
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 998
 * New
 * 0.19
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 37
 * 547
 * 0.12
 * 0.19
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 37
 * 547
 * 0.12
 * 37
 * 547
 * 0.12
 * 0.12
 * 0.12
 * 204
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Rejected ballots
 * 15,232
 * 11,042
 * colspan="2"|
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Voter turnout
 * 551,593
 * 57,708
 * 76.16
 * 0.85
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Registered electors (contested ridings only)
 * 724,260
 * 82,936
 * colspan="2"|
 * colspan="5" style="text-align:left;" | Candidates returned by acclamation
 * 3
 * 3
 * colspan="4"|
 * }
 * 3
 * 3
 * colspan="4"|
 * }

Synopsis of results

 * = open seat
 * = turnout is above provincial average
 * = winning candidate was in previous Legislature
 * = incumbent had switched allegiance
 * = not incumbent; was previously elected to the Legislature
 * = incumbency arose from byelection gain
 * = previously incumbent in another riding
 * = other incumbents renominated
 * = previously an MP in the House of Commons of Canada
 * = multiple candidates

title: 1935 Quebec general election


text:
Talk:Durham University

Objection -- reputation and rankings section
Is there any reason why this section is inordinately long compared to, say, Cambridge? Propose it is heavily trimmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.47.175.213 (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

 * The section in the Cambridge article is missing a lot of information – there's virtually nothing about national rankings, for example – and would need to be expanded to bring it up to Good Article standard. Robminchin (talk) 07:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

FRSA
'2 Fellows of the Royal Society of Arts.' So what? Fellowship of the RSA is no kind of academic qualification at all – it admits you to a rather good place for lunch in Central London. As it happens, I'm a Life Fellow of the RSA, but I wouldn't dream of sticking 'FRSA' after my name – that kind of thing is just for people who like post-nominals. Kranf (talk) 15:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Academic Year
Is it worth mentioning that the academic year ran along ecclesiastical lines in the past, with terms beginning on a Thursday morning, and ending at lunchtime on a Wednesday? Collections also started on the Thursday of Epiphany Term. Freshers' Week would effectively begin on the Sunday evening preceding term, with most events running Monday - Wednesday. This was certainly the case as late as the early 1990s. Illuminatusds ; talk 10:53, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Endowment
The endowment figure is followed by "exclusive of colleges", which was added here in 2010. Is this correct? Unlike Oxford and Cambridge, the university accounts include all but two colleges. The accounts have a note 24 on Connected charitable institutions, which includes five college trusts, with a total value just under £3M, but that value is much lower than the university endowments and does not necessarily relate to endowments. TSventon (talk) 02:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I think it's correct, in that endowments held by the independent colleges or the college trusts are not included in the university endowment. Those endowments may be small, or even zero, but it's probably worth including for the sake of accuracy. Robminchin (talk) 05:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I would say "exclusive of independent colleges" as 15 of 17 colleges are included in the university accounts. I would ignore the Connected charitable institutions, which are not all college related, as they are small and I would expect that where universities have linked charities we would normally include or exclude them based on whether they are included in the university accounts. Apologies for the delay in replying as I have been busy over Christmas. TSventon (talk) 14:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That would seem reasonable. Robminchin (talk) 20:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

 * The connected charities included in the accounts notes are only those that are not required to file separate accounts/ registered as separate charities so the likes of University College Trust, St Hild and St Bede Trust , Caedmon/Ceolfrid Trust as well as various JCRs, and other trusts such as the Ruth First Education Trust or DPET would not be included in the connected charities disclosure so it isn't correct to assume it is just the two independent colleges that are not included in the endowment figures. Some of these will be small admittedly but there are others than have endowments of a few million. Allialliw (talk) 08:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Allialliw, my thinking is that what needs to be noted about Durham is that there are independent colleges, which are not included. Other universities are likely to have associated charities and student unions/ JCRs, which may or may not be included in their accounts depending on the circumstances in each case.
 * I also haven't seen evidence that college charities have substantial endowments. St Hild and St Bede Trust has £8.6M, but only a small proportion of its spending goes to Hild Bede College. University College Trust has £15K in endowment funds, and the Caedmon/Ceolfrid Trust does not mention endowments. Ruth First Education Trust and Durham Palestine Educational Trust don't seem to be connected to individual colleges.
 * Pinging Robminchin and EmyRussell for their thoughts. TSventon (talk) 00:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree that the St Hilda and St Bede trust isn't really connected to the college. It looks like it was formed when the college joined the university, presumably to continue other activities in the diocese that the university wasn't taking on – its charitable aims are much broader than being a college trust. The only maintained college trust I've been able to find that isn't reported as a connected charity is the University College trust. Its endowment is very small, but I guess it could sometimes make a difference in the rinsing of the final decimal place.
 * However, we can't simply say 'exclusive of colleges' if any endowments for the connected charity college trusts (of which the are five according to the accounts) are being reported as part of the university endowment, while 'exclusive of independent colleges' is accurate at the level to which we are giving the endowment. I don't think including students' union endowments (and JCRs that aren't part of the university framework are legally students' unions), or the other various charities that give scholarships but aren't controlled by the university or its colleges, in with university endowments is a good idea. Robminchin (talk) 04:48, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not too familiar with the independent colleges of Durham and how they are run so I am happy to refer this judgement to those more well versed on their financial structures. However, you do raise a good point regarding how substantive these endowments are and whether they'd be large enough to make a significant impact on the overall value.EmyRussell (talk) 12:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Durham University


text:
Xai

Xai, XAI or xAI may refer to:

 * Explainable artificial intelligence, in artificial intelligence technology
 * Xai-Xai, a city in the south of Mozambique
 * XAI, the IATA airport code for Xinyang Minggang Airport, in Xinyang, China
 * xai, the ISO 639-3 language code of Kaimbé language, an extinct language in Brazil.
 * xAI (company), an American artificial intelligence company

title: Xai


text:
Talk:Holly Short

Polishing
This article needs to be polished up a bit. I restored the old description on her work and role in the series, but it does not sound as well written as wikipedia articles ought to. I'll go work on it when I find the time, though. -- Valistar (talk) 18:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why it's start-class. I revamped the first paragraph, need to clean up the second. Soon. IceUnshattered (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * P pip was here XD

Root
Was Root insulted that she was assigned to his group? - LDW LDW: It's never really said. But from the text we can assume that he was insulted to begin with, but became very proud of Holly. Holly is the first female officer in the LEP, and many have tried to find a way to remover her. She is rash, and has problems with following orders. She is also the one they call when Artemis is up to no good.Black Leopard

root was never insulted that holly was in his group. he made her work harder because she had a larger reputation to maintain, being the first female officer. he didn't want her to set a bad example for future female officers. Jaybenad 18:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Height?
If she is 1cm under 3 feet, she cannot be 1m tall, since 1m is about 39 inches, which is 3 inches (about 7½cm) over 3 feet. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 09:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a descrepancy between the US and UK editions, I think... --72.140.8.253 18:18, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

she is 1cm under 1 metre. Andy mci 20:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

She's describes as being a metre tall, 1cm under the average fairy height. So the average fairy height is 101cm and Holly is 100cm. Lethe naiad 09:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me clear all this up. Her height was changed in the US edition to 3 feet to make it easier for Americans, who (still) use the Imperial system of measurement. Seeing as the original edition is the UK edition, this is what should be taken to be canon. The average height of a fairy is 1 metre. Therefore, Holly is 99 cm tall. -007bond 11:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but it says in Artemis Fowl: The Opal Deception: "And even though, at one metre exactly, she was just below the average fairy height...."

And in the first book it says the same thing, this time saying that she's a centimetre below the average fairy height, which is 1m, 1cm. 58.173.114.226 09:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Nose?
Described in first book chapter 3 as having a hooked nose, even though the picture of her in the graphic novel doesn't portray her with one, shouldn't that be included in the wiki description? Actually, why don't we just quote part of the second paragraph from ch3 first book for part of the first paragraph of the wiki? 97.113.60.152 (talk) 03:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Position
She's no longer a Lower Elements Police Reconnaissance officer, she's Section Eight now, but still under the guise of a Private Investigator. Therequiembellishere 19:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Colfer has reccently confirmed that that there will be romance between Holly and Trouble in the next Artemis Fowl book. (Information from Artemis Fowl confidential.)

Language
In my recent cleanup of this article I used the word "tight-assed". While this definitely gives you a great description of his attitude, I admit it is unencyclopedic and should therefore be changed. Unfortunately I simply cannot think of a synonym, so I invite anyone to change this. -007bond 11:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Age
I know it already says that she is eighty, but on page 200(or in that area) in The Lost Colony, I think, she says that she is a captain in her eighties. Is that a bit more reliable than the Arctic Incident information, or not? 66.223.145.194 (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Holly Short


text:
Nazca Plate

The Nazca Plate or Nasca Plate, named after the Nazca region of southern Peru, is an oceanic tectonic plate in the eastern Pacific Ocean basin off the west coast of South America. The ongoing subduction, along the Peru–Chile Trench, of the Nazca Plate under the South American Plate is largely responsible for the Andean orogeny. The Nazca Plate is bounded on the west by the Pacific Plate and to the south by the Antarctic Plate through the East Pacific Rise and the Chile Rise respectively. The movement of the Nazca Plate over several hotspots has created some volcanic islands as well as east–west running seamount chains that subduct under South America. Nazca is a relatively young plate both in terms of the age of its rocks and its existence as an independent plate having been formed from the break-up of the Farallon Plate about 23 million years ago. The oldest rocks of the plate are about 50 million years old.

East Pacific and Chile Rise
A triple junction, the Chile Triple Junction, occurs on the seafloor of the Pacific Ocean off Taitao and Tres Montes Peninsula at the southern coast of Chile. Here, three tectonic plates meet: the Nazca Plate, the South American Plate, and the Antarctic Plate.

Peru–Chile Trench
The eastern margin is a convergent boundary subduction zone under the South American Plate and the Andes Mountains, forming the Peru–Chile Trench. The southern side is a divergent boundary with the Antarctic Plate, the Chile Rise, where seafloor spreading permits magma to rise. The western side is a divergent boundary with the Pacific Plate, forming the East Pacific Rise. The northern side is a divergent boundary with the Cocos Plate, the Galapagos Rise.

The subduction of the Nazca plate under southern Chile has a history of producing massive earthquakes, including the largest ever recorded on earth, the moment magnitude 9.5 1960 Valdivia earthquake.

Hotspots
A second triple junction occurs at the northwest corner of the plate where the Nazca, Cocos, and Pacific Plates all join off the coast of Colombia. Yet another triple junction occurs at the southwest corner at the intersection of the Nazca, Pacific, and Antarctic Plates off the coast of southern Chile. At each of these triple junctions an anomalous microplate exists, the Galapagos Microplate at the northern junction and the Juan Fernandez Microplate at the southern junction. The Easter Island Microplate is a third microplate that is located just north of the Juan Fernandez Microplate and lies just west of Easter Island.

Aseismic ridges
The Carnegie Ridge is a 1,350 km and up to 300 km feature on the ocean floor of the northern Nazca Plate that includes the Galápagos archipelago at its western end. It is being subducted under South America with the rest of the Nazca Plate.

Plate motion
The absolute motion of the Nazca Plate has been calibrated at 3.7 cm/yr east motion (88°), one of the fastest absolute motions of any tectonic plate. The subducting Nazca Plate, which exhibits unusual flat slab subduction, is tearing as well as deforming as it is subducted (Barzangi and Isacks). The subduction has formed, and continues to form, the volcanic Andes Mountain Range. Deformation of the Nazca Plate even affects the geography of Bolivia, far to the east (Tinker et al.). The 1994 Bolivia earthquake occurred on the Nazca Plate; this had a magnitude of 8.2 $$M_w$$, which at that time was the strongest instrumentally recorded earthquake occurring deeper than 300 km.

Aside from the Juan Fernández Islands, this area has very few other islands that are affected by the earthquakes that are a result of complicated movements at these junctions.

Geologic history
The precursor of the Nazca Plate, Juan de Fuca Plate, and the Cocos Plate was the Farallon Plate, which split in the late Oligocene, about 22.8 Mya, a date arrived at by interpreting magnetic anomalies. Subduction under the South American continent began about 140 Mya, although the formation of the high parts of the Central Andes and the Bolivian orocline did not occur until 45 Mya. It has been suggested that the mountains were forced up by the subduction of the older and heavier parts of the plate, which sank more quickly into the mantle.

title: Nazca Plate


text:
Catholic Patriotic Association

The Catholic Patriotic Association (CPA) is the national organization for Catholicism in China. It was established in 1957 after a group of Chinese Catholics met in Beijing with officials from the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Religious Affairs Bureau. It is the main organizational body of Catholics in China officially sanctioned by the Chinese government.

The organization is not recognized by the worldwide Catholic Church. The organization is controlled by the United Front Work Department (UFWD) of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party following the State Administration for Religious Affairs' absorption into the UFWD in 2018.

History
After the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949, the Chinese Communist Party sought for ways to bring religions in alignment with the communist cause. While all religions were seen as superstitious, Christianity had the added challenge of being foreign.

Efforts were made by Chinese Protestants in May 1950 in a meeting with Premier Zhou Enlai. This resulted in the penning of the "Christian Manifesto" that condemned foreign imperialism and argued for building a Chinese Protestant church apart from foreign control. This was based in part on earlier Protestant missiological strategy of creating an indigenous church based on the so-called "three-self principles": self-government, self-support, and self-propagation.

In December 1950, Chinese Catholics followed suit, with Father Wang Liangzuo in north Sichuan province, penning the "Guangyuan Manifesto" and signed by some 500 Catholics. It declared:

"We are determined to sever all relations with imperialism, to do all we can to reform ourselves, to establish a new Church that shall be independent in its administration, its resources, and its apostolate."

Other Catholic manifestos followed, such as the "Chongqing Manifesto" published in January 1951 with over 700 signatures. Similar to the Protestant "Christian Manifesto", the Catholic manifestos spoke of the need for a "three-self" or "three-autonomies" (as it was translated into English), even though this was previously only part of the Protestant missiological literature and not discussed among Catholic missionaries. Premier Zhou Enlai met with Chinese Catholics and spoke of his appreciation for the sacrifices of the Catholic Church and its missionaries, and the need to remain united with Rome on spiritual matters. But he also encouraged the development of the "three-self". Pope Pius XII issued Cupimus Imprimis (1952) and Ad Sinarum Gentes (1954) praising Chinese Catholics for their loyalty and underscoring the importance of martyrdom. Ad Sinarum Gentes additionally spoke out against the "three-self", arguing that independence would make a church no longer "Catholic".

In July 1957, 241 Chinese Catholics from all parts of China, including laity, priests, and bishops, convened a meeting in Beijing with officials from the Chinese Communist Party and the Religious Affairs Bureau. They approved the creation of the Catholic Patriotic Association with Archbishop Ignatius Pi Shushi of Shenyang elected as president. By early 1958, the first Catholic bishops were illicitly appointed without reference to Rome or the Pope. In June 1958, Pope Pius XII issued Ad Apostolorum Principis, refusing to recognize any consecrations performed without prior Vatican approval. The question of consecrating bishops would be a major sticking point in Sino-Vatican relations ever since.

With the rise of the Anti-Rightist Campaign and the Cultural Revolution, all public religious activities came to an end and organizations like the CPA were shut down. However, as Deng Xiaoping's reforms enabled a restoration of religions in the 1980s, the CPA once again became the official state-sanctioned organization for Catholicism in China. A sizable population of Chinese Catholics remain as part of the so-called "underground church", seen as "Vatican loyalists", and who boycott masses said by CPA priests.

The CPA does not recognize the proclamation of the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Pope Pius XII in 1950, canonizations from 1949 onward (e.g. the canonization of Pope Pius X), Vatican declarations on even well-established devotional piety (e.g. on the Sacred Heart of Jesus or on Mary as Queen), and the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965). In practice, however, the Catholic Church in China uses Chinese translations of the documents of the Second Vatican Council, of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, of the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church (revised in 1997) and of the 1970 Roman Missal. These had at first to be imported from Taiwan and Hong Kong, but have been printed locally for some years.

In 1980, the CCP Central Committee approved a request by the United Front Work Department to create a national conference for religious groups. The CPA was one of five such religious groups, which also included the Islamic Association of China, the Chinese Taoist Association, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, and the Buddhist Association of China.

In 2018, the CPA's parent organization, the State Administration for Religious Affairs, was absorbed into the United Front Work Department.

Appointment of bishops
In 1978, Pope Paul VI offered a special faculty that opened up the possibility of bishops in the underground church to appoint new bishops. This was particularly important during a time when the last Vatican-approved bishops occurred in the 1950s, three decades earlier. Peter Joseph Fan Xueyan, the Bishop of Baoding, in 1981 became the first to make use of this special faculty and consecrated three bishops without any prior approval from the Holy See. Pope John Paul II retrospectively gave approval for Fan's actions, and gave further authority to Fan to consecrate more bishops without prior consent. However, given the dire situation of the Catholic Church in China, Pope John Paul II gave permission to five bishops belonging to the underground church and four bishops connected to the CPA, all of whom were consecrated bishop between 1949 and 1955, the authority to appoint new bishops without prior approval. It was precisely in that period that bishops ordained according to CPA rules began to request and obtain recognition from the Holy See.

In June 2007, fifty years after the establishment of the Catholic Patriotic Association, Pope Benedict XVI made publicly available a letter to the Church in China underscoring the importance of unity and outlining a willingness to engage in "respectful and constructive dialogue" with Chinese bishops and government authorities. Following the letter, five new bishops associated with the Catholic Patriotic Association were ordained in 2007, all with papal and Chinese government approval.

In September 2018, a provisional agreement was signed between the Vatican and the Chinese government that stipulated that China would recommend bishops for papal approval and that the pope had the ability to veto any recommendations. Pope Francis also recognized seven bishops of the Catholic Patriotic Association who were previously not in communion with the Vatican. Some have raised concerns that the agreement would divide Catholics across China because it offers more control to the Chinese government. Among the most outspoken critics has been the Hong Kong cardinal Joseph Zen, who published an opinion piece in The New York Times entitled "The Pope Doesn't Understand China", and asserting that this attempt at unifying the Chinese church will instead lead to the "annihilation of the real Church in China". While the agreement has generally been recognized as far from perfect, it is also seen by Pope Francis as a step towards healing and the task of evangelization.

In October 2022, the agreement was renewed for another two years. In November 2022, the Vatican accused the Chinese government of violating the terms of the agreement.

title: Catholic Patriotic Association


text:
Wikipedia:List of empty images

This page should eventually become obsolete due to the fixing of Bug 484. silsor 19:02, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

This is a listing of images which never uploaded properly and have zero size. This list was last updated 22 September 2004 from the live database.

What to do
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 * When you can verify that the images were re-uploaded with another filename, delete them, with the deletion comment containing the new filename.
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 * With zero-byte images added by no-longer-active users, delete them.
 * With zero-byte images added by regular contributors and having some significant amount of material on the image description page beyond the one-line caption (e.g., copyright information), leave the page there and leave a note on the user's talk page.
 * When there exists a non-zero-byte old revision, revert to it.
 * Remember that the lack of a link to the image in the image description does not mean the image is unused - those links are routinely incomplete. You'll need to use the site search to find every place where it is used in en. Even that won't find non-en uses.

If you are not a sysop and want an image deleted, you should list it on Images and media for deletion. See that page for further instructions.

Images that have been deleted or successfully re-uploaded can be removed from this list.

How to update
The SQL query for updating this list is:

SELECT concat(' ', img_timestamp, ' t ', img_user_text, ' Image:', img_name,   ' ', img_description) FROM image WHERE img_size=0 ORDER BY img_timestamp

Run the query and copy and paste the result into the table.

The list
The list is empty at the moment.

title: Wikipedia:List of empty images


text:
Talk:Pachisi

Board image
Generating an original image to replace the current image here. The board currently shown is not pachisi. - PilotPrecise 00:37, 10 March 2004 (UTC)

 * It is, the image came from an old academic paper about the game (by Stewart Cullin IIRC). --Imran 03:17, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Indeed, you are correct! I had believed that classic Pachisi had the forts in the locations as indicated in the image I made, but in reviewing this to make sure, I have found at four configurations ascribed to "Pachisi" (one described as a Chaupar board; silly to claim as Chaupar has no safe houses) and it is difficult to prove wich (if any) is the classic layout.  Most examples are like the image I created, but the layout you provide by Cullin and the layout in Partlett's Oxford History... differ (each in the opposite extremes) and my image is more common and between the two.  May be worth a mention in the article that the safe house positions vary. PilotPrecise 05:09, 10 March 2004 (UTC)

Origins
Some Ludo instructions I've seen say that Pachisi dates back as far as 500BC. I can't find a reliable source for this - can anyone else find something and add this fact to the article?
 * There is not a reliable source for this "fact."Phil wink (talk) 06:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

 * How does this fit in?: Pachisi originated in India during the sixth century or perhaps even earlier. Traces of a cross-shaped pachisi board carved in stone can be seen today in one of the ancient cave temples of Ellora in the Deccan region of India. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

 * These, in fact, are the representations debunked by Parlett (1999, p 43) as noted in the article. (You wouldn't be able to tell from my brief reference there, but Parlett does indeed specify cave 21 at Ellora, so we're certainly talking about the same thing.) I don't know how these depictions, of which Parlett says, "...only the dice can be seen — there is no sign of a suitable board" also got described as having "traces of a cross-shaped pachisi board", but I trust Parlett in 1999 (and even more so Finkel in 2004) more than Grunfeld in 1975. Phil wink (talk) 00:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Ok, thank u for putting that in perspective for me. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Derivation from Ashte kashte
This "fact" was removed as unreferenced on 2010-10-11, after being added on 2006-02-09. But it looks like this fact originally came from myself, when I created the initial Ashte kashte article on 2004-03-29 ! Back then of course I didn't put any references. The main reference I would have used (The way to play book) doesn't actually mention this fact either. So does anyone have a good reference? Most of the references coming up in Google seems to be derived from Wikipedia which is no good. Vadmium (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

 * If (as I believe is the case) Pachisi is NOT derived from Ashte kashte, it will presumably be very difficult to find any good source that states this directly; no one lists all the games a game is NOT derived from. And it seems that Pachisi's history (if any) before about 1600 is poorly documented and speculative. So in this specific case, we'll likely have to accept lack of evidence as reason enough not to include this "fact". However, I'll look through Murray (1951), Parlett (1999), and Finkel (2004) which will be among our best resources, to see if I can't find some useful references that describe what is really known about the history as explicitly as possible. Phil wink (talk) 17:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Well, I've done my damage for the day. See new history section. Just my opinion, but it seems likely that the idea that Pachisi is derived from "Ashta-kashte" must be a mistake for "Ashtapada", which itself is a speculative history. Falkener in fact (1892, p 265) states that Ashta-kashte is a "modification of Pachisi" but he has no historical evidence, and I think he only means that playing Ashta-kashte is like playing Pachisi with modifications. I don't think anyone takes E.B. Tylor's hypothesis, that Pachisi is derived from Tâb, seriously; so I haven't even mentioned it in the article itself. Phil wink (talk) 00:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggested merge of current chaupar article with Pachisi. Also chopat seems very similar... Diggers2004 (talk) 01:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pachisi


text:
1931 Quebec general election

The 1931 Quebec general election was held on August 24, 1931, to elect members of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Quebec, Canada. The incumbent Quebec Liberal Party, led by Louis-Alexandre Taschereau, was re-elected, defeating the Quebec Conservative Party, led by Camillien Houde.

It was the third general election victory in a row for Taschereau, who had held office since 1920.

Redistribution of ridings
An Act passed in 1930 increased the number of MLAs from 85 to 90 through the following changes:

Campaign
The Liberals and Conservatives contested all 90 ridings, with 74 being two-way contests, and the remainder were three-way affairs.

Aftermath
The Conservatives initiated proceedings to attempt to quash up to 63 of the Liberal wins. In one of the hearings, Houde confessed that he had personally furnished $60,000 towards the effort, but did not disclose where he had gotten the funds from. In response, the Taschereau government passed the "Dillon Act", which retroactively amended the laws governing the contesting of controverted elections, thus effectively gutting the ongoing actions. When the Union Nationale subsequently gained power after the 1936 election, one of its first measures was to repeal this Act and restore the law to what it was before its passage.

Results
This was the last election in which a candidate campaigned in multiple ridings. Camillien Houde was nominated in both Montréal–Saint-Jacques and Montréal–Sainte-Marie, and he lost both contests.

! colspan=2 rowspan=2 | Political party ! rowspan=2 | Party leader ! colspan=4 | MPPs ! colspan=4 | Votes ! Candidates !1927 !1931 !± !# ! ± !% ! ± (pp) ! colspan="3" style="text-align:left;" | Total ! " colspan="2"| 90 ! " colspan="2"| 489,695 ! " colspan="2"| 100%
 * rowspan="4" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Government candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|Louis-Alexandre Taschereau
 * 90
 * 74
 * 79
 * 5
 * 268,732
 * 80,045
 * 54.88
 * 4.46
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 2,787
 * 1,422
 * 0.57
 * 0.14
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 711
 * New
 * 0.15
 * New
 * rowspan="4" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Opposition candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|Camillien Houde
 * 90
 * 9
 * 11
 * 2
 * 213,223
 * 104,118
 * 43.54
 * 9.23
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 1
 * 1
 * 1,683
 * 2,749
 * 0.34
 * 1.05
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 1
 * 106
 * 2,579
 * 0.02
 * 0.82
 * rowspan="5" |
 * style="text-align:left;" colspan="10"|Other candidates
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 1
 * 1
 * 1,065
 * 8,280
 * 0.22
 * 2.72
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 4
 * 584
 * New
 * 0.12
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 481
 * 1,861
 * 0.10
 * 0.64
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 323
 * New
 * 0.06
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 4
 * 584
 * New
 * 0.12
 * New
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 481
 * 1,861
 * 0.10
 * 0.64
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 323
 * New
 * 0.06
 * New
 * 0.64
 * style="text-align:left;" |
 * style="text-align:left;"|–
 * 2
 * 323
 * New
 * 0.06
 * New
 * 323
 * New
 * 0.06
 * New
 * 196
 * 85
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Rejected ballots
 * 4,190
 * 1,347
 * colspan="2"|
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Voter turnout
 * 493,885
 * 173,081
 * 77.01
 * 14.10
 * colspan="7" style="text-align:left;" | Registered electors (contested ridings only)
 * 641,324
 * 131,389
 * colspan="2"|
 * colspan="5" style="text-align:left;" | Candidates returned by acclamation
 * 12
 * colspan="4"|
 * }
 * colspan="5" style="text-align:left;" | Candidates returned by acclamation
 * 12
 * colspan="4"|
 * }
 * }

Synopsis of results

 * = open seat
 * = turnout is above provincial average
 * = winning candidate was in previous Legislature
 * = incumbent had switched allegiance
 * = not incumbent; was previously elected to the Legislature
 * = incumbency arose from byelection gain
 * = previously incumbent in another riding
 * = other incumbents renominated
 * = multiple candidates

Analysis
None of the third parties achieved a 1st- or 2nd-place result.

title: 1931 Quebec general election


text:
Talk:Boston Confucians

clarify
The Boston Confucian, or New Confucian movement, includes Tu Wei-ming of Harvard (now Peking University) and John Berthrong of Boston University. Dr. Tu gave a statement for a Life magazine anthology back in 1988 called The Meaning of Life. Dr. Tu linked Confucianism with process theology, noting that we are co-creators with God. He proclaimed that we serve Heaven through common sense, the lack of which has nearly brought us to disaster. www.academia.edu/1703755/The_New_Confucians Shouldn't this page be more about the Boston Confucians themselves, and less about the portability of ethical systems in general? The article talks a great deal about whether ethical systems can flourish in different cultures, but tells me almost nothing about the actual Boston Confucians. --Cholling 21:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I noticed that. It seems a bit unnecessary to elaborate on it that much. That some kind of Confucianism can be adopted by non-Chinese people is already proved in history. In some Korean dynasties the population was more Confucian than the Chinese. There were Jesuits in China who essentially believed in a blend of Confucianism and Catholicism. Giuseppe Castiglione maybe being one of the furthest on that path.--T. Anthony 10:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Dr. John Berthrong of Boston University states that the Western Inscription by Chang Tsai (also Zhang Zai) (1020-1077) has become "the favored Confucian response to the ecological crisis" WESTERN INSCRIPTION: "Heaven is my father and earth is my mother, and even such a small creature as I finds an intimate place in their midst. Therefore, that which extends throughout the universe I regard as nmy body and that which directs the universe I consider as my mature. All people are my brothers and sisters and all things are my companions. Respect the aged...Show affection toward the orphaned and weak...The sage identifies his character with Heaven and earth, and the virtuous man is best. {among the children of Heaven and earth}. Even those who are tired and infirm, crippled and sick, those who have no brothers or children, wives or husbands, are all my brothers who are in distress and have non one to turn to." http://dcommon.bu.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/2144/49/20001022-exploring_the_dao.html

The Harvard Forum on Religion and Ecology summarizes the Western Inscription as, "Describing the essential kinship of all beings with heaven and earth, it maintains that compassion is the highest expression of kinship." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bohemiotx (talk • contribs) 21:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems important to focus on the favorite Neo-Confucian passage of a leading Boston Confucian because that shows what is particularly meaningful for the contemporary movement-- a spirit of compassion for humanity, including the disadvantaged. By doing so, the Boston Confucians dodge the outdated aspects of the tradition, such as a hierarchical social order. Moreover, efforts to stress the "portability of Confucianism" are responding to objections that the philosophy should stay in East Asia or the past.

In its current form this page is consists of a couple of short sentences describing the group the article is named after, then spends three times as long on tangents and disputing of the original statements. It seems imbalanced to devote more attention to peripheral issues than to the topic of the article. If the group is controversial that should be discussed explicitly. It seems to me that the article should either be tightened and marked as a stub requiring further expansion, or the article should be deleted as having little relevance. 142.167.5.180 (talk) 04:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

https://bohemiotx.wordpress.com/2018/12/20/the-five-virtues-of-ruism-confucianism-%e4%bb%81%e4%b9%89%e7%a4%bc%e6%99%ba%e4%bf%a1-by-j-d-meyer/ This Word Press article is a description of the Five Virtues of Confucianism. Importantly, two modern translations are provided. Appropriate-Assertiveness has better a connotation than righteousness for i, and it was introduced by David Nivison. Trustworthiness accurately depicts the etymology of a person standing next to his/her word--the completion of the other four virtues. Faith in the West can mean proper beliefs about God and the Universe that can cover up failings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bohemiotx (talk • contribs) 18:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Boston Confucians