text:
Humanists UK

Humanists UK, known from 1967 until May 2017 as the British Humanist Association (BHA), is a charitable organisation which promotes secular humanism and aims to represent "people who seek to live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs" in the United Kingdom by campaigning on issues relating to humanism, secularism, and human rights. It seeks to act as a representative body for non-religious people in the UK.

The charity also supports humanist and non-religious ceremonies in England and Wales, Northern Ireland, and the Crown dependencies and maintains a national network of accredited celebrants for humanist funeral ceremonies, weddings, and baby namings, in addition to a network of volunteers who provide like-minded support and comfort to non-religious people in hospitals and prisons. Its other charitable activities include providing free educational resources to teachers, parents, and institutions; a peer-to-peer support service for people who face difficulties leaving coercive religions and cults; work to promote tolerance and understanding between religious communities and the non-religious; and work to promote understanding of humanism. The current president of Humanists UK is Adam Rutherford and the chief executive is Andrew Copson. The association currently has 70 affiliated regional and special interest groups and claims a total of approximately 100,000 members and supporters.

Humanists UK also has sections which run as staffed national humanist organisations in both Wales and Northern Ireland. Wales Humanists and Northern Ireland Humanists each have an advisory committee drawn from the membership and a development officer. Wales Humanists and Northern Ireland Humanists campaign on devolved issues in Cardiff and Belfast and work to expand the provision of humanist ceremonies, pastoral care, and support for teachers in those countries.

Aims
The organisation's Articles of Association sets out its aims as:
 * The advancement of Humanism, namely a non-religious ethical lifestance the essential elements of which are a commitment to human wellbeing and a reliance on reason, experience and a naturalistic view of the world.
 * The advancement of education and in particular the study of and the dissemination of knowledge about Humanism and about the arts and science as they relate to Humanism.
 * The promotion of equality and non-discrimination and the protection of human rights as defined in international instruments to which the United Kingdom is party, in each case in particular as relates to religion and belief.
 * The promotion of understanding between people holding religious and non-religious beliefs so as to advance harmonious cooperation in society.

The organisation also wishes to build itself as a sustainable and nationally-recognised organisation as a voice for non-religious people.

History
The organisation was founded in 1896 by American Stanton Coit as the Union of Ethical Societies, which brought together existing ethical societies in Britain. Other important founding figures included Elizabeth Schwann (who presided over the inaugural conference), and the feminist writer Zona Vallance (its first Secretary). The writer and critic Leslie Stephen, father of Virginia Woolf, was also a founding figure; he had been president of one of the societies which federated as the Union of Ethical Societies. It changed its name to the Ethical Union in 1920 and was incorporated in 1928. In 1963 H. J. Blackham became the first executive director, and the society became the British Humanist Association in 1967, during the Presidency of philosopher A. J. Ayer.

This transition followed a decade of discussions which nearly prompted a merger of the Ethical Union with the Rationalist Press Association and the South Place Ethical Society. In 1963 the first two went as far as creating an umbrella Humanist Association of which Harold Blackham (later to become a president of Humanists UK) was the executive director. However, Humanists UK, the Rationalist Association and the South Place Ethical Society (now Conway Hall Ethical Society) remain separate entities today and in 1967 the Union of Ethical Societies alone became the British Humanist Association.

In the 1960s, the organisation campaigned for reform of the 1944 Education Act's clauses on religion in schools and it was active in the campaign to legalise abortion and homosexuality. It supported repeal of Sunday Observance laws and the end of theatre censorship, the provision of family planning on the NHS and other reforms. More generally Humanists UK aimed to defend freedom of speech, support the elimination of world poverty and remove the privileges given to religious groups. It was claimed in 1977 that Humanists UK aimed "to make humanism available and meaningful to the millions who have no alternative belief."

The local ethical societies united in 1896 had (mainly during the 1950s) renamed themselves as humanist groups and their number grew over time, becoming today Humanists UK's network of affiliated local humanist groups. A network of celebrants able to conduct non-religious funerals, weddings, naming ceremonies and same sex affirmations (before the law allowing gay civil partnerships) was also developed and continues today as Humanist Ceremonies.

Social concerns persisted in Humanists UK's programme. Humanists UK was a co-founder in 1969 of the Social Morality Council (later transmuted into the Norham Foundation), which brought together believers and unbelievers concerned with moral education and with finding agreed solutions to moral problems in society. Humanists UK was active in arguing for voluntary euthanasia and the right to obtain an abortion. It has always sought an "open society". It is credited with substantially popularising the salience and use of the concept in Britain. In 1969 it filled Royal Festival Hall for an influential conference on Towards an Open Society.

Humanists UK claimed that the rules on religious programming within the BBC constitute a "religious privilege" and reserve particular criticism for the Thought for the Day slot on Radio 4's Today programme. In April 2009 a "breakthrough" in Humanists UK's campaign saw Andrew Copson invited to participate as a humanist representative in the BBC's short-lived Standing Conference on Religion and Belief when it replaced the Central Religious Advisory Committee.

In May 2017, the organisation changed its operating name from the British Humanist Association to Humanists UK. Its chief executive, Andrew Copson, said that the change followed "a long, evidence-driven process with focus groups of non-religious people across the UK and research involving over 4,000 of our supporters... Humanists UK represents not just a new logo, but a totally new, friendly look that captures the essence of humanism: open, inclusive, energetic, and modern, with people and their stories placed first and foremost...".

In 2021, Humanists UK celebrated its 125th anniversary. It launched a new Humanist Heritage website, cataloguing much of its 125-year history and the wider history of humanism in the UK, and received cross-party video messages of congratulations from the Leader of the Opposition and Labour, Sir Keir Starmer; the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party, Nicola Sturgeon; from the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Edward Davey; the co-leader of the Green Party of England and Wales, Siân Berry; and a warm letter of thanks from the Conservative UK Government.

Schools
The organisation opposes faith schools because "The majority of the evidence [...] points towards their being an unfair and unpopular part of our state education system which the majority of people in Britain want them phased out." In addition, they argue that faith schools are "exclusive, divisive and counter intuitive to social cohesion" and blame religious admissions procedures for "creating school populations that are far from representative of their local populations in religious or socio-economic terms."

While the organisation is opposed to faith schools receiving any state funding whatsoever, it supports the Fair Admissions Campaign which has a more limited scope because "it furthers our aims of ending religious discrimination and segregation in state schools; and secondly because we know how important this particular topic is." The organisation campaigns for reform of Religious Education in the UK including a reformed subject covered by the national curriculum which is inclusive of non-religious viewpoints, such as "Belief and Values Education". They believe that "all pupils in all types of school should have the opportunity to consider philosophical and fundamental questions, and that in a pluralist society we should learn about each other's beliefs, including humanist ones".

Humanists UK President-elect Alice Roberts was criticised for sending her child to a faith school, despite Humanists UK's campaign against state-funded religious schools. She responded that this was the very point of the campaign: that she, like many other parents, had little choice over where to send her child and that she would have preferred a non-faith school option local to her.

Humanists UK also support humanist volunteers on the local Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education which currently determine the Religious Education syllabus for each local authority. Educational issues have always featured prominently in Humanists UK campaigns activities, including efforts to abolish compulsory daily collective worship in schools and to reform Religious Education so that it is "Objective, Fair and Balanced" (the title of an influential 1975 booklet) and includes learning about humanism as an alternative life stance.

The organisation opposes the teaching of creationism in schools. In September 2011, Humanists UK launched their "Teach evolution, not creationism" campaign, which aimed to establish statutory opposition to creationism in the UK education system. The Department for Education amended the funding agreement for free schools to allow the withdrawal of funding if they teach creationism as established scientific fact. In 2019, Humanists UK's Wales Humanists branch revived the campaign in partnership with David Attenborough after the Welsh Department of Education omitted to include similar safeguards against teaching creationism in schools.

Humanists UK has long campaigned in opposition to collective worship laws in the UK which require all schools to hold school assemblies "of a broadly Christian character". In 2019, the charity backed two parents to take a human rights challenge to those laws, arguing that the state had a duty to treat non-religious pupils equally and by effectively isolating those who withdraw from compulsory worship, discrimination occurs. Later that year, Humanists UK launched a new website, Assemblies for All, which compiles school assembly resources from NGOs, charities, government sources, the BBC, and businesses to make it possible for teachers and school leaders to put on "inclusive assemblies" on diverse topics – including the environment, mental health, and public holidays – as opposed to the collective worship required by law.

Through its education website Understanding Humanism, the charity also provides resources to teachers who want to include humanist perspectives and information about humanism in lessons.

Constitutional reform
The organisation campaigns for a secular state, which it defines as "a state where public institutions are separate from religious institutions and treat all citizens impartially regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs." It points to issues such as the joint role of the British monarch (both Supreme Governor of the Church of England and Head of State), the reserved places for bishops in the House of Lords, the status of the Church of England (the officially established church ), and other "discriminations based on religion or belief within the system" such as those in education and Public Services.

Ethical issues
Humanists UK has supported the rights for those who need assistance in ending their own lives, and lobbied parliament for a change in the law, on behalf of Tony Nicklinson and Paul Lamb, in their 'Right to Die' legal cases. In 2014, it intervened in a Supreme Court case in which the court stated it would rule again on a potential declaration of incompatibility between restrictions on the right to die and the Human Rights Act should Parliament fail to legislate decisively. In February 2019 they helped form the Assisted Dying Coalition, a group of like-minded campaign groups seeking to legalise assisted dying for the terminally ill or incurably suffering.

Persistent campaigns include defending legal abortion in Great Britain and securing its decriminalisation and its legalisation in Northern Ireland, defending embryonic stem cell research for medical purposes, challenging the state funding of homeopathy through the National Health Service, and calling for consistent and humane law on the slaughter of animals. It has also campaigned for 'opt-out' organ donor registers to improve the availability of life-saving organs in the UK; Wales became the first part of the UK to adopt such a register in 2015. Jersey followed in 2019, to be followed by England in 2020.

The organisation also campaigns on marriage laws, demanding full equality for same-sex and humanist marriage ceremonies throughout the UK. Humanists UK had been providing same-sex wedding ceremonies for decades, and had strongly supported legalising same-sex marriage years in advance of eventual UK and Scottish legislation. In 2013, it secured an amendment to the same sex-marriage bill to require UK Government to consult on letting humanist celebrants conduct legal marriages. Though the consultation result strongly indicated that legalisation should go ahead, ministers have so far declined to use the order-making powers to effect the change. It also campaigns for same-sex and humanist marriages in Northern Ireland. In 2017, it supported a humanist couple to challenge Northern Ireland's refusal to give legal recognition to humanist marriages through the High Court in Belfast, which resulted in legalisation of humanist marriages in Northern Ireland in June 2017. After campaigning to legalise same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland, it celebrated its success with a promotional billboards across Belfast emblazoned, 'Love wins for everybody', advertising humanist ceremonies.

The charity has been consistently supportive of LGBT rights across its history. It was also among the first organisations to protest Section 28 in the late 1980s, and was one of the most vocal and longstanding advocates of a ban on gay conversion therapy, which it denounces as "religious pseudoscience" with harmful consequences. This eventually led to a 2018 commitment from the UK Government to ban the practice. Its humanist celebrants conducted non-legal partnership/wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples for many decades prior to the law changing.

Many of its campaigns are based on free speech and human rights legislation and it has based much of its campaigning on the Human Rights Act 1998. In 2008, the blasphemy law was repealed, an issue over which Humanists UK had long campaigned. It sought unification of existing anti-discrimination legislation and contributed to the Discrimination Law Review which developed the Equality Act 2006 and then the Equality Act 2010.

"The BHA's thorough research helped many of us to make informed and better-argued contributions to debates, particularly on complex ethical issues which arise in this House by the year. In the field of human rights, the BHA also helped us to refine the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill, the Equality Act 2006 and, of course, the current Equality Bill, which I trust will be passed in the last days of this Parliament without too much compromise. Some noble Lords with whom we have differed may feel that we humanists have had too much to say in controversies about education, but we make no apology for trying to improve the teaching on sex in schools, nor for our opposition to the teaching of creationism as science."

In January 2008 Humanists UK (known as the BHA at the time) and the National Secular Society approached the Scouts Association about a conflict between the claims of inclusivity on their website and their oath. In February 2008 journalists Bryan Appleyard and Deborah Orr criticised both Humanists UK and the National Secular Society for the (ultimately successful) campaign to end discrimination against non-religious children in the Scouts' Oath of Allegiance. In April 2008 Jonathan Petre, The Daily Telegraph religious affairs journalist, countered this position pointing out that the Scout Oath of Allegiance was discriminatory. After consultation with Humanists UK over a five-year period, Girlguiding UK in June 2013 and eventually the UK Scout Association in October 2013 recognised the discrimination and amended their oaths to accommodate non-religious young people from 1 January 2014.

In the 2020s, Humanists UK was one of the charities at the forefront of campaigns to defend the Human Rights Act and the freedom to instigate judicial review from threats of being watered down or repealed. It assembled a large civil society coalition of charities, trade unions, and human rights organisations speaking in defence of the present settlement.

Public awareness
On 21 October 2008, Humanists UK lent its official support to Guardian journalist Ariane Sherine as she launched a fundraising drive to raise money for the UK's first atheist advertising campaign, the Atheist Bus Campaign. The campaign aimed to raise funds to place the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" on the sides of 30 London buses for four weeks in January 2009. Expecting to raise £5,500 over six months, the atheist author Richard Dawkins agreed to match donations up to £5,500 to make £11,000 total. The campaign raised over £153,000, enabling a nationwide advertising campaign to be launched on 6 January 2009.

On 8 January 2009 Christian Voice announced they had made an official complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority asserting that the Atheist Bus slogan broke rules on "substantiation and truthfulness". In total the ASA received 326 complaints about the campaign, with many claiming that the wording was offensive to the religious, however Humanists UK contested the complaint and commented on the plausibility of the ASA making a claim as to the "probability of God's existence". Robert Winston criticised the campaign as "arrogant". The ASA ruled that the slogan was not in breach of advertising code.

In 2011, Humanists UK campaigned to get atheists, agnostics and other non-believers to tick the "no religion" box in response to the optional religion question in the 2011 census (as opposed to writing in either a joke religion like "Jedi" or ticking the religion one grew up in). Humanists UK believed the question was worded in such a way as to increase the number of currently non-religious or nominally religious people who list the religion they grew up in rather than their current religious views, and thus the results would have been skewed to make the country seem more religious than it actually is. Humanists UK believes that this supposed overstatement of religious belief creates a situation where "public policy in matters of religion and belief will unduly favour religious lobbies and discriminate against people who do not live their lives under religion".

Posters for the campaign which used the slogan "If you're not religious, for God's sake say so" were refused by companies owning advertising hoardings in railway stations following advice from the Advertising Standards Authority who believe the adverts had "the potential to cause widespread and serious offence".

The Census results for England and Wales showed that 14.1 million people, about a quarter of the entire population (25%), stated they had no religion at all, a rise of 6.4 million since the 2001 census. Humanists UK said the fall in the number of Christians from 72% to below 60% was "astounding", and calculated that they could be in a minority by 2018.

Set up in 2010, the Resolution Revolution campaign aims to "[recast] the tired old New Year resolution – so often about breaking a negative habit – as a pledge to do something positive for others". Participation is open to all and not restricted to humanists or the non-religious.

"New Year is a time for renewal – but beyond diets and gyms, not just for ourselves. Resolution Revolution is a humanist social action initiative, turning good intentions outwards to others. The more people that get involved, even in a small way, the bigger the impact is. Spending cuts don't make a cohesive society, but generous actions do."

In 2014, Humanists UK launched two public awareness campaigns. The first, called "That's Humanism!", was an Internet-based campaign revolving around four videos on humanist responses to ethics, happiness, death, and the scientific method, as narrated by its distinguished supporter, Stephen Fry. The videos, which were widely shared on social media, were intended to introduce non-religious people who were humanist in their outlook to the existence of a community of like-minded people living their lives on the basis of reason and empathy. The second campaign, called "Thought for the Commute", was a London Underground campaign featuring posters depicting humanist responses from Virginia Woolf, George Eliot, Bertrand Russell and A.C. Grayling to the question "What's it all for?" The campaign intended to be a positive introduction to Humanism for commuters, as well as to highlight the exclusion of humanist voices from BBC slots such as Thought for the Day. After announcing that it intended to replicate it in other UK cities, the campaign moved to bus posters in Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool for four weeks in November and December 2014, this time depicting humanist responses from Jim Al-Khalili, Jawaharlal Nehru, Natalie Haynes and Russell once again.

Presidents
Prior to the creation of a president of the Union of Ethical Societies in 1918, and that of chair in 1916, several others held the equivalent role of Chair of the Annual Congress. The very first of these was a woman, the philanthropist and activist Lady Elizabeth Swann, who was the wife of a prominent liberal MP. She presided over the founding Congress of the Union in 1896. Other early chairs of the Annual Congress included then-future Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald (1900-1901 and again in 1903).

In April 2011, it was announced that Professor A.C. Grayling would succeed Polly Toynbee as president of Humanists UK in July 2011. However, in June Humanists UK announced that Professor Grayling had decided not to take up that position, because of what he described as "controversy generated by activities in another area of my public life." Humanists UK stated that Polly Toynbee would continue as president until a new appointment was made later in 2011; she remained president for a further 18 months until in December 2012 it was announced that physicist Jim Al-Khalili would become president in January 2013.

Staff

 * Andrew Copson – Chief Executive
 * Richy Thompson – Director of Public Affairs and Policy
 * Liam Whitton - Director of Communications and Development
 * Ann-Michelle Burton - Head of People
 * Luke Donnellan – Director of Understanding Humanism
 * Deborah Hooper - Head of Ceremonies
 * Clare Elcombe Webber – Director of Humanist Care
 * Catriona McLellan – Director of Operations
 * Andrew West – Director of IT

The charity also contracts an officer on the ground both in Wales and Northern Ireland, who coordinate its national sections (or branches) Wales Humanists and Northern Ireland Humanists. These officers are in turn supported by national committees of volunteers whose advice assists the charity's service delivery in those countries, strategic litigation, and lobbying on devolved issues at the Northern Ireland Assembly and National Assembly for Wales.

Humanist celebrants
Humanist equivalents of otherwise religious celebrations are conducted by humanist celebrants, trained and accredited by Humanists UK across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, while the Humanist Society Scotland performs similar ceremonies in Scotland. Non-religious funerals are legal within the UK; over 8,000 funerals are carried out by humanist celebrants in England and Wales each year. Between 600 and 900 weddings and 500 baby namings per year are also conducted by Humanists UK-accredited celebrants. In England and Wales, a humanist wedding or partnership ceremony must be supplemented by a process of obtaining a civil marriage or partnership certificate through a Register Office to be legally recognised, but can be led by a Humanist celebrant.

The humanist funeral for former Welsh First Minister Rhodri Morgan at the Welsh Assembly was conducted by a Humanists UK celebrant, Lorraine Barrett and was the first national funeral in the United Kingdom to be led by a humanist celebrant.

Since 2018, Humanists UK celebrants have been able to conduct legally recognised marriages in Northern Ireland. This came about after Humanists UK supported a court case centring around its patrons, couple Laura Lacole and Eunan O'Kane.

Pastoral carers
Humanists UK maintains a network of roughly 150 trained and accredited volunteers in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland who go into hospitals, hospices, prisons, universities, and other settings to provide like-minded comfort and support to non-religious people during times of distress, much like a traditional religious chaplain. This network is known as the Non-Religious Pastoral Support Network. The project was initiated by data evidence which suggested that non-religious patients and inmates often refused support from a chaplain if they were themselves non-religious. Since 2014, the National Offender Management Service has recognised the legal right of prisoners to access non-religious pastoral carers, and since 2015, NHS England has recommended that every hospital in England offers a voluntary or employed non-religious carer. In 2018, Lindsay van Dijk was appointed as the first humanist to lead an NHS chaplaincy team at the Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS trust, which includes the world-renowned spinal injuries unit at Stoke Mandeville hospital. The current chair of NRPSN is Amy Walden.

Young Humanists
Young Humanists is the organisation's youth wing, which launched early in 2015 with a number of events in cities across the UK.

Patrons
Numerous prominent people from the worlds of science, philosophy, the arts, politics, and entertainment are publicly aligned with Humanists UK, including Professor Alice Roberts, Tim Minchin, Stephen Fry, Matty Healy, Sandi Toksvig, Philip Pullman, and Dan Snow.

In the 20th century, key members of Humanists UK's "advisory council" included Karl Popper, Vanessa Redgrave, Harold Pinter, E M Forster, Bertrand Russell, John Maynard Smith, Harry Kroto, Ludovic Kennedy, Jacob Bronowski, and Barbara Wootton.

Affiliations
Humanists UK is a founding member of Humanists International, and the European Humanist Federation.

In September 2008, Humanists UK joined with religious organisations, teachers' unions, and other human rights campaigns groups to found the Accord Coalition, a diverse coalition made up of groups that oppose religious segregation in education.

Humanist Students is a national federation of atheist, humanist, secularist, and skeptic societies at universities and is part of Humanists UK. Its elected delegates traditionally, alongside members of Young Humanists, represent Humanists UK at Young Humanists International events.

Humanists UK has traditionally worked closely with the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which was founded by the president of Birmingham Humanists, sexologist Martin Cole, in 1968. Humanists UK was a founding member of the BPAS "We Trust Women" coalition, which campaigns for the full decriminalisation of abortion throughout the UK.

The organisation supports a network of affiliated humanist groups throughout the UK and aims to encourage local campaigning, charity work, socialising, and events on a local level, and provides resources to assist the creation and running of such groups. Some of these groups are formally partnered with Humanists UK, which entitles them to added staff and promotional support, while others maintain a looser affiliate agreement. As of 2017, the number of partner groups stands at 47, with 15 affiliates.

The charity has also sponsored philosophical debates at HowTheLightGetsIn Festival.

Lecture series
Humanists UK runs a prestigious annual events programme, including the Darwin Day Lecture (on themes connected with Darwin's work and humanism), the Rosalind Franklin Lecture (commemorating women in humanism), the Voltaire Lecture (on humanism more generally), the Bentham Lecture (co-hosted with University College London's philosophy department), the Holyoake Lecture (held in Manchester and covering humanism and political thought), and an annual convention which moves around the UK from year to year.

Past speakers at these events include top scientists, authors, and academics, including Steven Pinker, Brian Cox, Richard Dawkins, Robert Hinde, AC Grayling, Natalie Haynes, Bonya Ahmed, Bettany Hughes, Alice Roberts, Nick Cohen, Ludovic Kennedy, Michael Foot, Lawrence Krauss, Eugenie Scott, Adam Rutherford, Tom Blundell, and Jerry Coyne, Anne Glover, Angela Saini, Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, Jim Al-Khalili, Owen Jones, and Kate Pickett.

Annual award
From 2011 Humanists UK presented an annual award for special contributions to Humanism. It is known as the Humanist of the Year Award, having been known prior to 2014 as the Services to Humanism Award. The award was customarily presented during Humanists UK annual conference (or, in 2014, the UK-hosted World Humanist Congress). Since 2016 it has been presented at a special reception event. Past winners are:
 * 2011: Philip Pullman, Services to Humanism Award
 * 2012: Richard Dawkins, Services to Humanism Award
 * 2013: Terry Pratchett, Humanist of the Year Award
 * 2014: Gulalai Ismail and Wole Soyinka, International Humanist of the Year Award (both presented as part of World Humanist Congress)
 * 2015: Alice Roberts, Humanist of the Year Award
 * 2016: Lord Dubs, Humanist of the Year Award
 * 2017: Joan Bakewell, Humanist of the Year Award
 * 2018: Northern Ireland Humanist Campaigners (Laura Lacole, Eunan O'Kane, Steven McQuitty, Ciaran Moynagh, Caolfhionn Gallagher QC, Janet Farrell, and Sarah Ewart accepting), Humanists of the Year Award.

Earlier awardees include A.J. Ayer, Leo Igwe, Polly Toynbee, and Julian Huxley.

title: Humanists UK


text:
Empire, Leicester Square

The Empire, Leicester Square is a cinema currently operated by Cineworld on the north side of Leicester Square, London, United Kingdom.

The Empire was originally built in 1884 as a variety theatre and was rebuilt for films in the 1920s. It is one of several cinemas in and adjoining Leicester Square which are regularly used for film premieres and first runs.

Today, it has nine auditoria, including an IMAX (IMAX with Laser projection), a Superscreen (Premium Large Format (PLF), 4K projection and Dolby Atmos sound), and a 4DX screen.

1884: The Empire Theatre opens
The Empire Theatre opened on 17 April 1884 under the ownership of Daniel Nicols as a West End variety theatre on Leicester Square, as well as a ballet venue, with a capacity of about 2,000 seats.

The first performance was Chilpéric, with music by Hervé, adapted by H. Hersee and H. B. Farnie and described as a Grand Musical Spectacular, in three acts and seven tableaux. The corps de ballet for the performance was 50 strong. Edward Solomon and Sydney Grundy premièred their comic opera, Pocahontas or The Great White Pearl, another Solomon opera, Polly or The Pet of the Regiment transferred here, and his Billee Taylor was revived here, all in 1884. Kate Vaughan starred in Around the World in 80 Days at the theatre in 1886. Hervé premièred his Diana (1888) and Cleopatra (1889) at the theatre.

In 1887, the theatre reopened as a popular music hall named the Empire Theatre of Varieties. From 1887 to 1915, the designer C. Wilhelm created both scenery and costumes for (and sometimes produced) numerous ballets at the theatre, which established a fashion for stage design and were much imitated. George Edwardes managed the theatre around the start of the 20th century. The dancer Adeline Genée and the theatre's ballet company, working under composer-director Leopold Wenzel, did much to revive the moribund art of ballet in Britain, which had declined in the 19th century.

An extension providing secondary access from Leicester Street via a new foyer was added in 1893, with Frank Verity as the architect.

In March 1896, the Empire Theatre played host to the first commercial theatrical performances of a projected film to a UK audience by Auguste and Louis Lumière. The film programme ran for 18 months. Over the next few years, the theatre began to offer a programme of live performances with short film shows.

1927: Rebuilt as a cinema
As moving pictures grew in popularity in the 1920s, the freehold of the Empire was acquired for redevelopment in 1925 for over $1 million by Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer in partnership with Solly Joel, with its last live theatre performance being Lady Be Good, starring Fred Astaire.

Most of the theatre was demolished in 1927, with the Empire rebuilt as a film theatre on an expanded site with the auditorium block now extending East to Leicester Place; the architect was Thomas W. Lamb with assistance from F. W. Boettcher and Frederick G. M. Chancellor of Frank Matcham and Company as the local architect, and the Anglo-Scottish Construction Company Ltd was the contractor. Parts of the Frank Verity designed exterior remain visible on the West side.

It opened on 8 November 1928 with the silent film Trelawny of the Wells, based on the play by Arthur Wing Pinero.

Built as an American-style movie palace in the form of North American theatres designed by Thomas Lamb for Loew's/MGM, it had a capacity of about 3,300 seats, and was one of the first cinemas in the UK to be fully air conditioned. It also boasted a 4/21 Wurlitzer organ, and a large stage which often hosted ballet and dance performances.

Soon after opening, MGM bought out Joel's interest in the theatre.

Post-war cine-variety
After the war, the stage accommodated programmes of cine-variety –elaborate live shows, similar to those presented at the Radio City Music Hall. For these, the American producer Nat Carlson, who had been responsible for shows at that venue, was hired, and its slogan, "The Showplace of the Nation," was adopted.

In 1952 the Empire featured in Charlie Chaplin's film Limelight, and its 1927 incarnation can also be seen in archived newsreel footage of special events.

New screen for Ben-Hur 70mm presentation
There were reports that the cinema was to be demolished and MGM reeceived offers to sell but in 1959, the Empire removed 1,200 seats and installed new 70mm projectors and a new screen in front of the proscenium to show Ben-Hur, which ran for 76 weeks.

1962: Reconstruction as a cinema and dance hall
Following the long run of Ben-Hur, in 1961 the Empire was sold to Mecca and closed for internal reconstruction to create a new cinema for MGM and a dance hall for Mecca. The building was stripped out extensively, including the removal of existing partition walls and floors. Almost all of the 1920s ornate plasterwork was removed; two small sections remained, hidden behind false walls and ceilings —one section now being behind the IMAX auditorium side wall.

George Coles was the architect and G. E. Wallis and Sons was the main contractor for the new cinema.

The theatre re-opened on 19 December 1962, with Jumbo. A new 1,330-seat auditorium was formed at circle level, on a suspended precast concrete floor over the former stalls underneath, with a circle section at the rear on a new stadium seating structure, and a flatter raked stalls section towards the screen end; the auditorium had no stage facilities, and extended into the former stage house. Its side walls and ceiling were finished with acoustic plaster tiles of mink and gold colours, featured banks of concealed colour-changing cold cathode lighting, and reclining red upholstered seating was fitted.

The auditorium would later be known as Empire 1 or Screen 1.

The vestibule was subdivided with the cinema entrance on the left side, with a single staircase up to the grand foyer, its walls covered with white and black Italian marble, and a new grand foyer replaced the circle foyer, featuring a red coloured ceiling with several domes, lit with white concealed lighting.

In the former stalls, a Mecca Ballroom was constructed, with access from Leicester Square via the right half of the former cinema vestibule and stairs down to its sub-basement level. Over the years, it has been a dance hall, discothèque and nightclub, being later operated by First Leisure Corporation plc, and in 1992 it was reimagined as the Equinox Discothèque. In 2007, following further substantial reconstruction and refurbishment, it re-opened as the Casino at the Empire, which is now operated by Metropolitan Gaming, owned by Silver Point Capital.

The 1928 façade was retained but was now completely obscured by a full building hoarding advertising the current films featured and Mecca Dancing; it was not until 1989 that it was re-exposed, with a new canopy built featuring rows of semi-circular neon lights, which was subsequently altered and then completely replaced when the Casino was opened.

1989: Refurbishment
In 1989, Screen 1 and the lobby areas were refurbished, with Esquisse Design as the architects. Fibre optic starfields by Par Opti Projects Ltd were fitted in the foyer ceiling and in the curved proscenium arch-style flat plasterwork above the screen, and a THX-certified sound system was installed by CSI, which later became Bell Theatre Services Ltd.

This consisted of 5 JBL 4675C systems with dual 4648A LF cabinets (four 15" drivers per channel), six JBL 4645 subwoofers, and 20 JBL 8330 surrounds, powered by 13 JBL/UREI dual-monoblock 6290 power amplifiers, fed from a Dolby CP200 with a THX 3417 crossover/booth monitor.

The refurbishment included the application of grey spray paint to the tiles in Screen 1, which had the unintended consequence of negatively impacting the auditorium's acoustics. The red foyer ceilings now had a flocked finish, a 40 screen video wall was installed in the foyer, and new decorative treatments in lobby areas included mirrored finishes and exposed cold cathode lighting features. The HVAC system was upgraded with a new rooftop chiller unit.

A laser projector was also installed in Empire 1, for a short sound-and-light show; the projection was onto the tabs and walls, and the concealed lighting was sequenced. It preceded the start of each programme, proclaiming it to be "The Most Spectacular Cinema in the World," and advertised the THX certified sound system.

Dolby SR-D was fitted in 1992 by adding a Dolby DA10 and CAT699 soundtrack readers; a year later, a DTS-6 system was added for the release of Jurassic Park, and an SDDS system was also installed.

By the mid-1990s, the laser show was discontinued; some years later, Martin Audio speakers were installed, and THX recertification was eventually dropped.

Ownership changes
The Empire was operated for many years by Cinema International Corporation (CIC), until it merged in 1989 with United Artists Communications Inc. to form United Cinemas International (UCI) Cinemas. In 2004, UCI Cinemas merged with Odeon Cinemas to form the Odeon & UCI Cinemas Group; the Office of Fair Trading required the disposal of ten former UCI sites, including the Empire Leicester Square, which in October 2005 were sold to Empire Cinemas Ltd. and rebranded as Empire Cinemas. The Empire Leicester Square was subsequently acquired by Cineworld in July 2016, and the cinema is now known as Cineworld Leicester Square.

Reinstatement of THX certification
Following Empire Cinemas' acquisition, in 2006 the THX certification of Screen 1 was reinstated. The sound system was completely replaced by Bell Theatre Services Ltd, using 5 JBL 5632 Custom ScreenArray screen speakers, each with dual 18" drivers, and 16 18" JBL 4645C subwoofers, all flush with a new baffle wall built by Camstage; a rear array comprising 42 JBL 8340A surround speakers, 5 dbx DriveRack 4800 digital active crossovers, and 56 kW of Crown CTs series amplification.

CTs 2000 and 3000s were placed in racks behind the screen to ensure loudspeaker cable runs were short, and the surrounds were individually powered by 6 CTs 8200 8-channel amplifiers located in the booth.

The SDDS D2000, DTS-6Ds, Dolby CP200 and MPU-1 were serviced or refurbished and one Philips DP70 was recommissioned in order to run 70mm screenings; and were tested with Reel 1 of Dune. A Dolby CP650 was added to handle digital sources, being fitted with a CAT778 allowing AES/EBU outputs to the dbx crossovers, and was switchable to analogue for the CP200.

To help tame the auditorium's acoustics, RPG Reapor sintered glass tiles were applied over the existing tiles.

The screen was also replaced by one 4 m wider, measuring 18.2 x. Film projection lenses were changed to variable-iris aspheric technology Schneider Cinelux Premières, allowing light balance centre-to-edge with improved focus and illumination uniformity.

Dolby 3D projection and Dolby Atmos
In May 2009, Screen 1 was equipped for the world première of Avatar with the UK's first Dolby 3D large screen system, using 4 Barco DP3000 projectors in a dual-stacked configuration.

The UK's first public Dolby Atmos system was installed in Screen 1 in July 2012. 14 overhead speakers (JBL AM7212 and AM7215) were installed, hanging down through holes in the ceiling, but covered over with grey fabric, and additional front side speakers and rear subwoofers were added.

IMAX conversion of Screen 1
In August 2013, Screen 1 was closed for a total refurbishment, to form a 723-seat IMAX auditorium and a 401-seat IMPACT auditorium (renamed Superscreen following the Cineworld acquisition.) The final screening, Big Bad Wolves, occurred on 26 August 2013 to close out FrightFest 2013, and building work commenced immediately afterwards.

The architect for the conversion was UNICK Architects, with Maeve Contractors as the main contractor.

The project involved the permanent removal of almost all existing decorative finishes and fittings, the demolition of all false ceilings, and some internal walls. A large acoustic wall was constructed, weighing 50 tonnes and hung from the 1920s roof structure, for isolation between the two auditoria.

The IMPACT (Superscreen) screen opened on 16 May 2014 with Pompeii, and the IMAX screen on 30 May 2014 with Edge of Tomorrow. Following the redevelopment of Screen 1, the cinema had digital projection only, with no film projection capability available.

IMAX auditorium
The IMAX auditorium uses the circle seating area of the former Screen 1, with its steep raking, and is the largest IMAX in the UK by seating capacity. It also has the widest cinema screen in the UK, 26.5m (87.5 feet) wide by 15.6m (51.1 feet) high; it is curved and is positioned in the former middle stalls of Empire 1. Its walls and ceilings retain essentially the same form, but with the ceiling progressively raised, reusing the 1962 curved steelwork moved up to accommodate the IMAX screen height, and altered with the front splay walls moved in. The walls and ceiling are covered with black stretched fabric over acoustic absorption, and the colour-changing concealed lighting has been reinstated using LEDs. Its seating is upholstered in black leather.

At opening, two IMAX DLP xenon light source projectors were used, which could only achieve a 24.5m (~80 feet) wide by ~13m (~42.5 feet) high image. A full set of IMAX "Kanga" Grand Theatre speakers were installed, supporting all 6 channels then available including upper centre.

In October 2015, the IMAX laser light source projection system (IMAX with Laser ) was installed, allowing the full screen to be filled, alongside an upgrade to IMAX's 12 channel surround sound system, for which 6 additional smaller overhead and side surround speakers were added.

Superscreen auditorium
The remaining area of the former Screen 1, combined with the former void area to the external wall on Leicester Place, is used for the Superscreen auditorium, which bears no resemblance in design to the former Screen 1. Its 20.5m (~67 feet) wide by 11m (~36 feet) high wall-to-wall floating screen is oriented in the opposite direction, back to back with the IMAX screen. A new stadium seating structure was constructed, and at the rear of the auditorium, on a new 17m long steel girder supported by the existing roof structure, sits a small balcony seating area, under which a small projection booth is situated.

Dolby Atmos was installed, along with a total of 87 JBL speakers powered by 85 kW of amplification. Most of the projection and sound equipment, including twin Barco DP4K-32B projectors, JBL screen speakers, Crown amplifiers, and dbx loudspeaker management units, as detailed above, was transferred from the former Screen 1, except that all surround and overhead speakers were replaced.

Screen 2
Formerly the Ritz, a cinema located in the basement of an adjacent building (1–4 Leicester Square) that opened in 1937, which was originally designed as a newsreel cinema, the architect being George Coles. It was acquired by MGM for moveovers of feature films, and later renamed Empire 2. It has been refurbished several times, notably in 1970 with Sidney Kaye, Eric Firmin and Partners as the architects, and revamped in the 2000s with the addition of a new stadium seating structure.

A separate entrance was retained until the mid-1980s, subsequent to which access has been via the main cinema foyer level, by entering into a stairwell leading down to the auditorium.

Screens 4 and 5
These two screens were added in 2008, the first to open with digital projection only in London's West End, built in areas formerly used as toilets and offices, respectively seating 96 and 50. Barco DP1500 projectors, Harkness screens, Crown amplifiers, JBL screen speakers and Martin Audio surround speakers, alongside reclining memory foam seating, were installed.

Screens 7 and 8
Opening on 29 November 1985, a 77-seat auditorium known as Empire 3 was constructed. Following its closure in 2009, its space combined with former void space, above the lower vestibule, was used to form Screens 7 and 8.

Screens 6 and 9
Screen 6 was built as the smallest auditorium, with 26 seats; and Screen 9, above Screen 8, was built within former offices.

Post-Cineworld acquisition developments
In 2018, Cineworld completed a total refurbishment of the lobby areas, and the former Screen 2 was converted to a 4DX screen.

Foyer refurbishment
The new foyer was designed by Innebo Architects, with Chapman Taylor as the architect for the project's delivery.

It involved the replacement of all ceilings and the permanent removal of almost all decorative features, many of which dated from numerous changes made since the 1962 reconstruction and also the 1989 refurbishment. Of particular note, the original white marble vestibule wall finishes and the red coloured ceilings with domed features were not reinstated; however, the brass balustrading in the vestibule area was refitted.

The vestibule stairs now feature LED display modules fitted on their risers, and a large curved display formed from LED display modules is situated at the top of the vestibule. Reflective black stretched fabric has been attached to the ceilings, which are heavily accented with decorative features, consisting of coved elements and flat gold coloured squares, lit using much concealed and back LED lighting.

4DX conversion of the former Screen 2
The former Screen 2 was converted to a 4DX auditorium, with Chapman Taylor's leisure team as the architect. The auditorium was altered to allow for the 4DX installation; all internal finishes were replaced, and the seating, now with a capacity of 136, was fitted to a new stadium stepping, with wider row spacing.

Screen renumbering
Concurrent to the lobby areas refurbishment, the screens were renumbered; Screens 5, 4, and 6 are now Screens 1, 2 and 3 respectively, and Screens 7–9 are now Screens 5–7. The 4DX, IMAX and Superscreen auditoria—4, 8 and 9 respectively—are normally referenced by name.

Refurbishment of other screens
Screens 1–3 and 5–7 (formerly 5, 4, 6 and 7–9) were reopened in Summer 2018, following refurbishment, which included replacement seating, all (except Screen 3) on a steeper rake.

References and notes

 * Guide to British Theatres 1750–1950, John Earl and Michael Sell pp. 109–10 (Theatres Trust, 2000) ISBN 0-7136-5688-3

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Empire, Leicester Square


text:
In camera

In camera (Latin: "in a chamber") is a legal term that means in private. The same meaning is sometimes expressed in the English equivalent: in chambers. Generally, in-camera describes court cases, parts of it, or process where the public and press are not allowed to observe the procedure or process. In-camera is the opposite of trial in open court where all parties and witnesses testify in a public courtroom, and attorneys publicly present their arguments to the trier of fact.

In camera hearings during trials
Entire cases may be heard in-camera when, for example, matters of national security are involved. In-camera review by a judge may be used during otherwise open trials—for example, to protect trade secrets or where one party asserts privilege (such as attorney–client privileged communications). This lets the judge review documents in private to determine if revelation of documents in open court will be allowed.

In United States courts, in-camera review describes a process or procedure where a judge privately looks at confidential, sensitive, or private information to determine what, if any, information may be used by a party or made public. An in camera review may be at someone's request (such as counsel in the case), or by order of the court.

An example of "in-camera review" by the court: a defendant prosecuted for the alleged murder of a high school student asserts his was an act of self-defense, a last resort after the deceased physically assaulted the defendant. Witnesses tell investigators and lawyers that the victim "was always getting into fights in school" and frequently had to visit the principal's office. The defendant seeks to obtain the deceased's high school files to see if there is anything proving the deceased fighting at school. A party for the deceased's family might argue against disclosure on the basis that school records which are presumably private should not be provided to the defendant. While a judge might acknowledge the general presumption, the court might permit the defendant limited use at trial of any school records that may establish the deceased's physically aggressive tendencies.

In this example, before allowing disclosure of files to the defendant, or for revelation of the records to the jury, the judge performs an in camera inspection on the deceased's high school records to determine what records, if any, would be released to the defendant. The judge may disallow use of some or all of the records that are reviewed, limit use or purpose of the records, and may order a party to take all steps necessary to keep private and confidential the information released.

Non-legal definitions
In-camera can also describe closed board meetings that cover information not recorded in the minutes or divulged to the public. Such sessions may discuss personnel, financial, or other sensitive decisions that must be kept secret (e.g., a proposed merger or strategic change the organization does not want disclosed to competitors). It can also apply to diplomatic and political affairs, such as during the American Constitutional Convention in 1787 when the drafting of the Constitution of the United States was discussed in such strict privacy so delegates could negotiate in full confidence that they were free to reconsider particular positions as necessary without embarrassment or political repercussions with their constituents.

In camera may also mean the portion of a graduate level thesis examination that includes only the examining committee and the student. This follows a presentation by the student that the public may attend.

title: In camera


text:
Talk:Danny Hillis

Hagiography
This sounds more like hagiography than something one would expect to read in an Encyclopedia. RodC 23:00, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * It was also a probable copyright violation from . I've reverted to the version before that was added. Angela. 23:13, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Now restored. It was a contrib by the author of that webpage, as suggested by the username of the contributor.  Verified by email, Oct 11, 2004 :  "Confirmed, it was contributed by me and was GFDL's[sic] with my consent..." As for the laudatory tone, someone please take it down a few notches.  +sj +  00:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Not easy, as the article would have to be rewritten from scratch. It's tone is that of a newspaper feature - which it is -, not an encyclopedia article. I really don't know about the subject, so, for now, I've just corrected the titles' capitalization style... RodC 20:42, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A conversation between Alan Kay and Danny Hillis was published in the second year of Wired Magazine at, which sheds light on his thinking and approach to modeling complexity / cybernetics.

Edge has a more complete biography of Danny Hillis at

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Danny Hillis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120502171352/http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org:80/neurology_neurosurgery/experts/profiles/team_member_profile/282E92445B3DD806F8BE87319AF61F04/Argye_Hillis to http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neurology_neurosurgery/experts/profiles/team_member_profile/282E92445B3DD806F8BE87319AF61F04/Argye_Hillis
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111204043618/http://www.dandavidprize.org:80/laureates/laureates-2002/74-2002-present-technology-information-and-society/118-dr-daniel-hillis.html to http://www.dandavidprize.org/laureates/laureates-2002/74-2002-present-technology-information-and-society/118-dr-daniel-hillis.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

A better article available
There is a much better referenced article at http://longnow.org/people/board/danny0/full/ that seems to follow the biography of living person standards and is published under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. I tried to put it in place instead of the what is there now, but it got reverted because this was my first try at updating an article, it was a large change, and I don't understand some of the subtleties like date formatting, etc. I will probably give up on updating this article and try something simpler for my first edit, but someone who knows how to do this better may want to try replacing the current article with from the one referenced above. It comes much closer to meeting the Wikipedia standards than what is there now.

Promotional concerns
recently this article as reading like an advertisement, which is not an concern I currently share to any meaningful degree. I'm wondering if there are particular passages that led to this assessment. Thanks. —jameslucas ▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ▄  20:03, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

positions in summary out of date
Hi, this is Danny Hillis, so I cannot edit this article, but I did notice a minor error: some of my previous medical positions at USC is listed as current. I suggest they be moved down to the section describing my work with proteomics.

fixed
Thanks, summary is now fixed.

title: Talk:Danny Hillis


text:
12th Golden Raspberry Awards

The 12th Golden Raspberry Awards were held on March 29, 1992, at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel to recognize the worst the movie industry had to offer in 1991.

Awards and nominations
{{Legend|#B0C4DE|Winner (in bold) }}

Films with multiple nominations
These films received multiple nominations:

title: 12th Golden Raspberry Awards


text:
Computational number theory

In mathematics and computer science, computational number theory, also known as algorithmic number theory, is the study of computational methods for investigating and solving problems in number theory and arithmetic geometry, including algorithms for primality testing and integer factorization, finding solutions to diophantine equations, and explicit methods in arithmetic geometry. Computational number theory has applications to cryptography, including RSA, elliptic curve cryptography and post-quantum cryptography, and is used to investigate conjectures and open problems in number theory, including the Riemann hypothesis, the Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture, the ABC conjecture, the modularity conjecture, the Sato-Tate conjecture, and explicit aspects of the Langlands program.

Software packages

 * Magma computer algebra system
 * SageMath
 * Number Theory Library
 * PARI/GP
 * Fast Library for Number Theory

title: Computational number theory


text:
Margaret of Provence

Margaret of Provence (Marguerite; 1221 – 20 December 1295) was Queen of France by marriage to King Louis IX.

Early life
Margaret was born in the spring of 1221 in Forcalquier. She was the eldest of four daughters of Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Provence, and Beatrice of Savoy. Her younger sisters were Queen Eleanor of England, Queen Sanchia of Germany, and Queen Beatrice of Sicily. She was especially close to Eleanor, to whom she was close in age, and with whom she sustained friendly relationships until they grew old.

Queen
In 1233, Blanche of Castile, mother of King Louis IX of France, sent one of her knights to Provence, partly to offset the troublesome Count Raymond VII of Toulouse and partly to meet Margaret, whose grace and beauty were widely reported. Margaret and her father entertained the knight well, and soon Blanche was negotiating with the count of Provence about the marriage of a daughter of his and Blanche's son. Margaret was chosen as a good match for the king more for her religious devotion and courtly manner than her beauty. She was escorted to Lyon by her parents for the marriage treaty to be signed. From there, she was escorted to her wedding in Sens by her uncles William and Thomas of Savoy. On 27 May 1234, at the age of thirteen, Margaret married Louis. She was crowned queen of France the following day. Both the wedding and the coronation were celebrated at the cathedral of Sens.

The marriage was a difficult one in numerous aspects. Blanche still wielded strong influence over her son and would throughout her life. As a sign of her authority, Blanche dismissed Margaret's uncles and all of the servants she had brought with her from her childhood shortly after the wedding. Margaret and Blanche resented each other from the beginning.

Margaret, like her sisters, was noted for her beauty. She was said to be "pretty with dark hair and fine eyes", and in the early years of their marriage she and Louis enjoyed a warm relationship. Her Franciscan confessor, William de St. Pathus, related that on cold nights Margaret would place a robe around Louis' shoulders, when her deeply religious husband rose to pray. Another anecdote recorded by St. Pathus related that Margaret felt that Louis' plain clothing was unbecoming to his royal dignity, to which Louis replied that he would dress as she wished, if she dressed as he wished.

They enjoyed riding together, reading, and listening to music. The attentions of the king and court being drawn to the new queen only made Blanche more jealous, and she worked to keep the king and queen apart as much as possible.

During the Seventh Crusade
Margaret accompanied Louis on the Seventh Crusade (their first). Her sister Beatrice also joined. Though initially the crusade met with some success, such as the capture of Damietta in 1249, it became a disaster after the king's brother was killed and the king then captured.

Queen Margaret was responsible for negotiations and gathering enough silver for his ransom. She was thus for a brief time the only woman ever to lead a crusade. In 1250, while in Damietta, where she earlier in the same year successfully maintained order, she gave birth to John Tristan.

The chronicler Jean de Joinville, who was not a priest, reports incidents demonstrating Margaret's bravery after Louis was made prisoner in Egypt. For example, she decisively acted to assure a food supply for the Christians in Damietta and went so far as to ask the knight who guarded her bedchamber to kill her and her newborn son if the city should fall to the Arabs. She also convinced some of those who had been about to leave to remain in Damietta and defend it. Joinville also recounts incidents that demonstrate Margaret's good humor, as on one occasion when Joinville sent her some fine cloth and, when the queen saw his messenger arrive carrying them, she mistakenly knelt down thinking that he was bringing her holy relics. When she realized her mistake, she burst into laughter and ordered the messenger, "Tell your master evil days await him, for he has made me kneel to his camelines!"

However, Joinville also remarked with noticeable disapproval that Louis rarely asked after his wife and children. In a moment of extreme danger during a terrible storm on the sea voyage back to France from the Crusade, Margaret begged Joinville to do something to help; he told her to pray for deliverance and to vow that when they reached France she would go on a pilgrimage and offer a golden ship with images of the king, herself and her children in thanks for their escape from the storm. Margaret could only reply that she dared not make such a vow without the king's permission, because when he discovered that she had done so, he would never let her make the pilgrimage. In the end, Joinville promised her that if she made the vow he would make the pilgrimage for her, and when they reached France he did so.

Political significance
Her leadership during the crusade had brought her international prestige and after she returned to France, Margaret was often asked to mediate disputes. She feared the ambitions of her brother-in-law Charles, though, and strengthened the bond with her sister Eleanor and Eleanor's husband, King Henry III of England, as a counterweight. In 1254, she and her husband invited them to spend Christmas in Paris.

Then, in 1259, the Treaty of Paris was concluded after the relationship between Louis and Henry had improved. Margaret was present during the negotiations along with all of her sisters and her mother.

In later years, Louis became vexed with Margaret's ambition. It seems that when it came to politics or diplomacy she was indeed ambitious, but somewhat inept. An English envoy at Paris in the 1250s reported to the English court, evidently in some disgust, that "the queen of France is tedious in word and deed," and it is clear from the envoy's report that he was not impressed with her efforts to create an opportunity for herself to engage in affairs of state. After the death of her eldest son Louis in 1260, Margaret induced the next son, Philip, to swear an oath that no matter at what age he succeeded to the throne, he would remain under her tutelage until the age of thirty. When Louis found out about the oath, he immediately asked the pope to excuse Philip from the vow on the grounds that he himself had not authorized it, and the pope immediately obliged. This ended Margaret's attempt to make herself a second Blanche of Castile. Margaret subsequently failed as well to influence her nephew King Edward I of England to avoid a marriage project for one of his daughters that would promote the interests in her native Provence of her brother-in-law, Charles of Anjou, who had married her youngest sister Beatrice.

Queen dowager
After the death of Louis IX on his second crusade in 1270, during which she remained in France, she returned to Provence. She became a more politically active figure after his death. She was particularly exigent – to the point of raising troops – in defending her rights in Provence, where Charles maintained his political authority and control of property after Beatrice's death, contrary to the intentions of Margaret and Beatrice's father, who had died in 1245. She was devoted to Eleanor, and they stayed in contact until Eleanor's death in 1291. Her last years were spent doing pious work, including the founding of the Franciscan nunnery of Lourcines in 1289.

Margaret herself died in Paris, at the Poor Clares monastery she had founded, on 20 December 1295, at the age of seventy-four. She was buried near (but not beside) her husband in the Basilica of St-Denis outside Paris. Her grave, beneath the altar steps, was never marked by a monument, so its location is unknown; probably for this reason, it was the only royal grave in the basilica that was not ransacked during the French Revolution, and it probably remains intact today.

Issue
King Louis IX of France and Margaret of Provence had eleven children together:
 * 1) Blanche (1240 – 29 April 1243)
 * 2) Isabella (2 March 1241 – 28 January 1271), married Theobald II of Navarre
 * 3) Louis (25 February 1244 – January 1260)
 * 4) Philip III of France (1 May 1245 – 5 October 1285), married firstly Isabella of Aragon, by whom he had issue, including Philip IV of France and Charles, Count of Valois; he married secondly Maria of Brabant, by whom he had issue, including Margaret of France.
 * 5) John (born and died in 1248)
 * 6) John Tristan (1250 – 3 August 1270), born in Egypt on his father's first Crusade and died in Tunisia on his second
 * 7) Peter (1251–1284)
 * 8) Blanche (1253–1323), married Ferdinand de la Cerda, Infante of Castile
 * 9) Margaret (1254–1271), married John I, Duke of Brabant
 * 10) Robert, Count of Clermont (1256 – 7 February 1317), married Beatrice of Burgundy, Lady of Bourbon, by whom he had issue. It is from him that the Bourbon kings of France descend in the male line.
 * 11) Agnes (c. 1260 – 19 December 1327), married Robert II, Duke of Burgundy

title: Margaret of Provence


text:
Talk:You can't have your cake and eat it

Cleanup
This page is imprecise and cumbersome and should either be ammended or deleted.--Tappyea 23:10, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's an imprecise and cumbersome phrase to begin with... lots of people use it without knowing exactly what it means or why.  Also, removed last addition by Dysprosia -- no offense; just no particular reason to add that example over many others in common use.  (I must say the POV bit at the end is what made me think to remove it; if you really want it in the article, maybe shorten that par. to 1 NPOV sentence.) +sj+ 08:09, 2004 Mar 8 (UTC)

 * I don't know how many people exactly still believe that bisexuals are really just "gay-and-denying-it" or "het-and-denying it", but I think that many nowadays do not hold such ideas. Leave the paragraph in or no, I just remember hearing the phrase used in connections with criticisms of bisexuality and thought it pertinent to comment Dysprosia 08:13, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. If there's a concise way to say this, without taking up as much space as the entire rest of the article, it would certainly be pertinent to include; I have heard the same usage more than once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sj (talk • contribs) 13:57, 9 March 2004

 * I'll have another stab at it a little later :) Dysprosia 04:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Easier to understand if reversed
''The phrase is easier to understand if it is reversed: to eat your cake, and have it too. One cannot possess the piece of cake if one has already eaten it.'' Patronizing and probably inaccurate. Having something can quite simply mean eating something, as in "I had eggs for breakfast". The latter phrase does not mean that the speaker was in possession of the eggs for the duration of the breakfast, though that is of course implied, but that the eggs were part of the meal. (This is speculation, but I wager that this use derives from the imperative "have some" used as polite request, with the implication that anything so "had" is consumed: "here, have some eggs"). Thus, "to have your cake and eat it too" could simply be a stacking of synonyms, and of course one cannot eat the cake after already having had it in this sense. JRM 01:05, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)

 * The explanation derided above is the only way the phrase makes sense to me. It means that one cannot have both the pleasure of possessing something and the pleasure of consuming it simultaneously. --Clement Cherlin 09:10, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. The above explanation (about reversing the phrase) makes sense to me, whereas the one currently present on the page seems really iffy.  I certainly understand what the writer is saying, but it still doesn't seem like the way a phrase would actually originate.  Sources? TomTheHand 21:07, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I thought it was a wonderful fake etymology and I was quite proud of my original research. But, to coin another colorful phrase, I have to eat crow. From :
 * "YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO - 'Once you've eaten your cake, this familiar proverb reminds us, you cannot cry as a child would about not having your cake anymore. The saying in its earliest form read, 'Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and haue your cake?' which appeared in John Heywood's 'A dialogue Conteinyng the Nomber in Effect of All the Prouerbes in the Englishe Tongue' (1546).?' 'You can't eat your cake and have your cake' appeared in John Ray's 'A collection of English Proverbs' (1670). The modern version, 'We cannot have our cake and eat it too,' was recorded in a document (1812) relating to the war of 1812. From 'Wise Words and Wives' Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk Sayings Olde and New' by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New York, 1993). 'You can't have your cake and eat it too -- One can't use something up and still have it to enjoy. This proverb was recorded in the book of proverbs by John Heywood in 1546, and is first attested in the United States in the 1742 'Colonial Records of Georgia' in 'Original Papers, 1735-1752.' The adage is found in varying forms: You can't eat your cake and have it too. You can't have everything and eat it too; Eat your cake and have the crumbs in bed with you, etc. ...' From the 'Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings' by Gregory Y. Titelman."
 * My clever explanations notwithstanding, the thing simply ended up reversed, which is common enough. It's plausible enough to defend that the synonymous meaning of "having" is what influenced/allowed this, but that's of no relevance to the actual etymology. Originally, the phrase was "eat your cake and have it too": to want to still have the cake in hand after eating it.
 * I've changed the article to reflect this and I've included the site mentioned above as a source, though some more nicer ones would be preferred—in particular, if we can actually verify this quote with the original dictionaries (or something equally suitable) we could mention that directly. Thanks for your input. JRM 21:59, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)

 * "Understandability" isn't the primary concern here. The primary concern is how the phrase is most often used. ask123 (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Your cake is gone once you eat it
Better modern translation. Rugz (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your cake, I eated it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TigerWolf (talk • contribs) 23:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

How about... Halve your cake and eat the two? Meaning you promised to share and reneged. Lsimms (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

How about "To huff your cake and eat it too", meaning you can't both inhale your cake and eat it. - 77.248.59.246 (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, how about "You can't heave your cake and eat it too" where "heave" means throw, not vomit? If this is a rock cake, then throwing it as a weapon might be said to be giving your enemy "his just desserts". Myles325a (talk) 01:56, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Or just phrase it as "You can't KEEP your cake and eat it too." All this time, I thought it meant something like you can't have too much of what you want, due to the confusing phrasing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.112.18 (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

This is actually a misquote., to have your cake means to eat it. It should be You cannot have your cake and keep it too. Or you cannot eat your cake and keep it to. 40.131.185.176 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:47, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

have one's cake and eat it too
It does not matter which way you say it. Have your cake and eat it too has the same meaning as eat your cake and have it too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footdr (talk • contribs) 08:09, 9 April 2006
 * I was thinking the same thing the entire time I was reading the article. Either way you order it, the phrase is about wanting to have two states simultaneously which are mutually exclusive. The states are (eating your cake) and (having your cake around). Neither form is more "correct" than the other, except in terms of reflecting the ordering of the original phrase. And the original form does nothing to rid itself of George Carlin's "critique" because both phrases mean exactly the same thing. Onlynone 20:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See previous discussion concerning etymology. "To have" and "to eat" were not always synonymous, just as "to have," "to bed," "to screw," "to lay," "to bone," "to know," "to know in a biblical sense," etc. were not always synonymous.  --The Centipede 23:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The first two posted viewpoints do not depend on anything being synonymous. If I want to have my cake (meaning, possess it) then if I eat it, I can no longer possess the cake.  So the saying makes sense as "have your cake and eat it too." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squashfactory (talk • contribs) 21:19, 31 August 2007
 * Exactly, I don't know why people keep talking about the fact that 'to have' can also mean 'to eat'. That has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither form of this expression ("to have your cake and eat it too" and "to eat your cake and have it too") use 'to have' as meaning 'to eat'. Neither form even implies this meaning, and frankly I had never noticed it before reading it in this discussion here. Onlynone 18:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Common English usage treats the "and" as catering for a sequence of actions. So if Johnny does A and B, it is understood that A was done before B.  Remember this phrase is handed down from a culture of usage, not one of technical analysis.  So if today we say that Johnny could have done B before A, well, 400 years ago, wherefrom the phrase comes, it was not so.  The order does matter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.8.13.68 (talk) 23:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I admit to this analysis, in that "I did A and B" usually means "I did A and then I did B" (usually, but not always). Looking at the phrase "You can't have your cake and eat it too" through this lens does make it seem incorrect. I can have my cake, "Here's my cake sitting on the table"; and then I can eat it "I'm eating the cake that I just had lying around". In this way I had my cake and ate it too. However, this chronological interpretation of "and" isn't universal, and based on the context I believe that most people recognize when you mean for both A and B to happen at the same time (as in this case) as opposed to one after the other. Onlynone 18:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

 * The use of the word "too" at the end makes the statement correct. "Too" also avoids the implied ordering of events that some have mentioned in regards to "and". The article should be corrected and have the references removed that the statement isn't correct. Theosis4u (talk) 07:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

If I'm eating cake, I'm having cake. As in: What are you eating for dessert? I'm having cake. To me it would make more sense if it was "Ate a cake and still have it", "ate" meaning it's already in my stomach. "Have one's cake and eat it too" sounds more like step-by-step instructions: I'll have the cake and proceed to eat it. Simply put, IF I HAVE CAKE I WILL EAT IT. Jigen III (talk) 06:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Linguistic and semantic arguments aren't really relavent here. However, how the phrase is most commonly used is. If one usage is more common than the other, then it should be primary in this article. If neither is more common (i.e. both forms are used approx. equally), then both should get equal mention. It's as simple as that. ask123 (talk) 14:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Well I suppose technically, you could eat your cake and have it too, but it will look much different... and smell bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.36.190.205 (talk) 04:40, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Denotes a level of One's Greed or Frustration.
Cake is perishable, so if you have your cake, rejoice. Eat your cake, leaves nothing.

If, it isn’t gone already? Should someone else find it!

While the fantasy sounds good, it is fleeting.

But if you come close, remember; “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you”.

AmbiguousOne (talk) 21:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)The Baker (Rolling in Dough)

Trivia section
This phrase is too common for the references to it in popular culture to be noteworthy. There are literally thousands of examples of the phrase in wider culture. Thus, it's inadvisable to have an "In popular culture" (aka "Trivia") section. If no one has any objections, I will delete it in a few days. ask123 (talk) 14:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Have your cake and eat it (too)
This is the most common way of expressing this in Australia. It also seems popular overseas. Which countries use "Have one's cake and eat it too" as opposed to the Australian version? I'd never heard it used with 'one' before. Ozdaren (talk) 09:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It should be changed. Misodoctakleidist (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

origins - definitely earlier recordings than Heywood.
the article details the proverb's earliest finding as Heywood, in 1546. Whilst it may well be found in this Dialogue, the reference to the OED is misleading, as it states the earliest recording by Heywood as 1562 in his Prov. & Epigr.

Even with this, it is most certainly not the earliest recorded form of the proverb: it appears in a letter from 14 March 1538 from Thomas, Duke of Norfolk to Thomas Cromwell: 'a man can not have his cake and eate his cake'. It appears as a complaint about his shortness of money, having apparently spent too much of previously monastic land.

This can be found in the "Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII" vol. 13, part 1. ref. 504 - available at British History Online

The French "common slang" version
What is it? The article shouldn't be so demure. Imagine Reason (talk) 12:48, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have never heard the version with the cream shopkeeper's smile. The most common version mentions her butt.--195.212.29.182 (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The translation section
Greek: Και την πίτα ολόκληρη και τον σκύλο χορτάτο - you want the pie whole and the dog full.

Is perhaps a direct translation, word for word, but when said "την πίτα ολόκληρη" it is referring to "the entire pita" not "the pie whole". MachinistJim (talk) 03:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Slavic proverbs may have been misunderstood
Do not think Bulgarian: И вълкът сит, и агнето цяло – Both the wolf is full, and the lamb is whole. and Czech: Aby se vlk nažral a koza zůstala celá – The wolf is full and the goat stayed whole. refer to the same phenomenon. Are these really used in the same negative context? I think those phrases, common inSlavic and Slavic influenced languages, are used in a positive context, i.e. when this state has been achieved: the wolf has been fed and yet the sheep are alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.35.232.152 (talk) 16:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about the other slavic languages, but the Russian version (И волки сыты, и овцы целы – The wolves are full, and the lambs are whole.) most definitely has the exact opposite meaning. It is used when some seemingly contradictory things end up existing together. Deleting this example from the text. Vinney (talk) 06:10, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Similar with Polish proverb: "wilk syty i owca cała". Regardless of a country, "wolf satisfied and sheep intact" means that there is a solution when it IS POSSIBLE to match two opposite features. The English proverb with the cake as the object means that it is NOT possible at all to match two contradictory features. In my opinion, most Slavic equivalents in this section should be deleted. I will not do this by myself, hoping that the relevant wikipedians will do it on behalf of their compatriots. The Polish equivalent seems to be correct, although it is just a direct translation from English, I suppose. --JPFen (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Agreed. I'm deleting Czech which is closer to "keeping the letter of a rule without keeping its spirit". Example: a father lets his teenage son attend some party with the proviso that the latter mustn't drink beer - so the latter gets plastered with wine instead. "The wolf is full" (promise to father was kept) but "the goat stayed whole" (inebriation was achieved). --Droigheann (talk) 18:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

original research
This article needs to be completely rewritten according to reliable sources, for example this, and this, and this. All personal opinions, prescriptivist nonsense, and other incorrect claims such as the following should be removed from an encyclopedia article:
 * "...incorrectly quoted English idiomatic proverb or figure of speech. The correct and thus logical version..." (the currently used form of a proverb is a proverb - it is not a "quote of an earlier version")
 * "One can be in possession of one's cake, but is not allowed to eat it." ("allowed" is nonsense)

The article should also be moved to Have your cake and eat it too or You can't have your cake and eat it too, which are correct and actually used (and most common) forms of this proverb. The less common forms with "his/her" etc. are implied, but the current article title is almost never used --Espoo (talk) 11:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Using Google Ngram Viewer as proof that a particular version of the phrase is older seems like OR in the best case, but most likely just a misuse of the service. jej1997 (talk) 09:10, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Economics
It's not Economics, except in the sense that everything is economics. The simple English (but not necessarily simple English) concept is trade-off. I formatted X's comments correctly, but then replaced it with the correct link to trade-off. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

 * If the entry is specifically dedicated to the relationship between scarcity and choice...then the entry has to do with opportunity cost. If you don't know about opportunity cost...then you don't know the first thing about economics.  Given that you clearly don't know about opportunity cost...it's painfully obvious that you don't know the first thing about economics.  Therefore, your contributions in areas concerning economics are so unhelpful that they are borderline vandalism.  Just because your edits are in "good faith" does in no way, shape or form diminish their destructive impact.  So please, if you're unwilling to make the effort to learn about economics, then stop editing things that have to do with economics.  --Xerographica (talk) 21:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Hmmm. Given that you clearly don't understand the (claimed to be economic) term trade-off, and noting, generally, that if C is more closely related to B than to A, and if C is referenced in B, it should not be referenced in A, this should be gone.  I won't revert if you add it again, but I will tag as irrelevant.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

"Argument is only valid when the cake is not expired?"
I don't understand why the argument is invalid when the cake in question is expired. If I can't have a fresh piece of cake and eat it, too, then it stands to reason that I can't have an expired piece of cake and eat it, too.

++++++++++===============+++++++++++ I grew up hearing some common colloquialisms but never having a proper understanding of them as I had no one to explain them to me. I was left to fend more for myself in interpreting what I was hearing. SO,this is ONLY my thoughts and not based on any historical precedent. Having my cake and eating it too was something that I have almost never actually associated with cake, nor for that matter, with anything perishable. In fact, to actually do both, I've assumed the cake is a "type" and really only a reference to that which is clearly NOT cake. That could very easily be manna or money. The logical conclusion then (for me anyway) is that if you have both the cake AND the eating of it and make a declarative statement that "I AM going to have my cake and eat it too," you are essentially saying you are going to have an endless supply of something. You have a money tree, a cake factory, quail appearing out of rocks, etc. I look at it much more as a statement of optimism in that I'm going to experience a surplus of something rather than a negative that I can't have something. I realize, again, that this has NOTHING to do with the original meaning. Rather, it is the optimist's reply to it. 70.168.122.185 (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)Scott

Image
I had added an image of a cake to give visual aid to the article. Then someone reverted it. Why is an image accompanying an article not necessary? Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Following our policy of assuming good faith, I will assume that you are serious in asking this question, and not trolling.
 * The answer is: Because a picture of a cake does not illustrate the concept of "you can't have your cake and eat it". It just illustrates a cake. We also don't have (and shouldn't have) a picture of the Devil in Devil's Advocate or a picture of a ring (jewelry) in the article ring (mathematics). The cake and the ring are completely notional. --Macrakis (talk) 23:29, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Good point. Okay, that is fine. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 05:23, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The "proper" order
I am sympathetic to whomever changed the opening sentence to “You can't eat your cake and KEEP it”. I often use the phrase “you can’t eat your cake and have it too” hoping, (usually in vain) that someone will notice I’m not using the more common expression. I think the phrase you inserted in the phrase I use make much more sense. However, Wikipedia tends to be more descriptive than prescriptive, so we report what people say, even if it is incorrect. The phrases become an idiomatic phrase in such phrases often turn into something that doesn’t make literal sense but people tend to know what they mean. I wish I could convince people to use the correct expression but I know I’m fighting a losing battle. If I and others were to win that battle we could change the article to reflect the common usage but until such time we should reflect the common usage. The article does note the more sensible usage but it is not the most common usage so it is not appropriate to change the opening sentence which should match the title which should match the common usage.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  23:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Dutch variant

 * Je moet kiezen of delen – You have to choose or divide. This is based on Dutch civil law where in a division of property one person divides the property in two parts and the other person chooses the part he likes most.

I am a native Dutch person, and I can tell you that Kiezen of delen (Choose or divide) is similar but not equal to "You can't have your cake and eat it". Kiezen of delen means that one party divides (delen) something, and the other party chooses (kiezen) which part they want. This way, the divider is forced to look at things from the chooser's perspective while dividing. This theoretically creates a situation in which neither party screws over the other. See Divide and choose, and Kiezen of delen.

The text further claims that the principle is part of Dutch civil law. I don't know about that. If it is part of a law, then I don't think it's widely used. I've lived in the Netherlands all my live, and I have never heard of any occasion, business-wise or marital, in which Choose or divide was applied. Indeed, in practice, it isn't very useful, because certain goods or assets may be more valuable to one party than they are to the other. The only case I remember having encountered the principle in the Netherlands was in a Dutch pudding commercial, in which a mother of two happily announced that her young children were no longer quarreling over the delicious desert after implementing the Kiezen of delen method: one child cut the pudding, the other chooses one of the two parts.

I've added this Dutch proverb to the article: Van twee walletjes eten, literally "Eating from two banks" of a ditch, or a river. It's a negative saying which means that someone joins two opposing parties and manipulates the situation in such a way to get the most out of it. Examples are cheating and A Fistful of Dollars.

Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 21:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Papiamento variant
I've changed this:

 * Skohe of lag'i skohe – choose or let choose.

to this:

 * : There is no equivalent for this proverb in Papiamento, but a similar phrase is: Skohe of lag'i skohe – Choose or let choose.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct/revert me. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 21:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Are we really sure that "meme" is a language
Currently, the "In other languages" section contains the following text:

I'm pretty sure that meme is not, in fact, a language (and I'm also skeptical that Know Your Meme is a reliable source). Should this information be presented in some other way, or should we just delete it? -- N Y  Kevin   01:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I would be completely fine with it if you delete that bit. Thanks, Manifestation (talk) 17:47, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. -- N Y  Kevin   19:21, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Finnish version
I have never heard the Finnish version. It sounds hacky and non-Finnish, like a third-rate translation of the original. It doesn't sound natural. I would remove it. 88.195.213.127 (talk) 14:19, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Can't have your cake and eat it, too
It's a reference to Marie Antoinette in a way. "Let them eat cake." The French were poor and Louis took his share. Cake is the burnt bottom of the loaf. The royalty always gets the 'upper crust.' Food was rationed and so if you got your cake you would save it. Can't be fed today and hungry tomorrow if you can help it. The ohrase was made popular because of the peasant revolt. 2601:194:480:9630:51E7:A270:8814:31F (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's attested over 200 years before Marie Antoinette was born, so no. And she didn't say "Let them eat cake", either. --Macrakis (talk) 22:56, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

English
Write a story to illustrate the saying; you can't have your cake and eat it 197.215.24.12 (talk) 08:56, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

 * It's not clear what you're asking for - do you mean you think the article should have an example of the phrase being used? There are a number of examples given in the citations. SamWilson989  (talk) 11:15, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Having a cake without eating it
In Tolkien’s 1951 letter to Milton Waksman summarizing his stories, he writes, “[The Elves] wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of ‘The West’, and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people… was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor.”

I’d never heard this form of the saying before - it’s a bit of a logical twist, still basically meaning “you can’t have a thing without its logical consequence.” Was this ever in common use? Is it worth including in the article? 2600:1702:4500:A2B0:4CDB:7761:63AE:AED4 (talk) 23:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

 * Ideally we wouldn’t cite that particular usage without a secondary source that discusses Tolkein’s use of the phrase, if that makes sense? It would otherwise become a little hard to decide which uses or which authors we should mention, as you can imagine, the phrase itself has been used millions of times, so a particular unusual phrasing (or error) is still hard to include without a secondary source.
 * As for the meaning, I’m afraid I can’t help much, but it might be that he meant it as a clever corruption of the classic phrase, as the elves do not “eat” on earth as we mortals do. To my ears, the better metaphor might be “to have eaten their cake without eating,” but that doesn’t sound as pretty. Might be better posted to a Tolkien forum though! — HTGS (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

"In other languages" formatting
This section is kind of a nightmare. The direct translations preceding the translated version make the whole section difficult to read. Is there stylebook procedure for this kind of listing of translations? It should also be noted that much of this section is unsourced.

Any suggestions? ― TaltosKieronTalk 13:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

 * I don't think the list is that bad. The entries are easy to differentiate, and the blue links of the languages provide a visual cue of where each entry starts. Also, some of the idioms are in italics, further improving readability.
 * If you really think it should change, then you can try a version with a table. Or a version with sub-headers and paragraphs: Scandinavia, East Asia, Africa, etc.
 * You are right about the lack of sourcing. - Manifestation (talk) 17:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Other Languages
Why was the other languages section deleted? 98.168.26.83 (talk) 08:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * user:Drmies gave an explanation in their edit summaries: mostly unverified, original research, and trite. Meters (talk) 22:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you Meters. It's really Wiktionary material anyway. Drmies (talk) 00:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm saddened that the section has been deleted. But maybe we can create a compromise? How about we slightly alter the See Wiktionary template to create an empty section like this:
 * ==In other languages==
 * For similar idioms in other languages, see the Wiktionary entry have one's cake and eat it too.
 * Many people don't know this information is on Wiktionary, and therefore assume it's gone for good. The interwiki link will lead them the right way.
 * I've had this page on my watchlist for years. I know this particular section was popular amongst our readers, myself included. It was interesting to read. - Manifestation (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)