text:
User talk:Pjamescowie

Welcome
Hello, welcome to Wikipedia.

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Again, welcome! - UtherSRG 20:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I liked the info you added about Ken Livingstone. With regard to the headings, though, the prior version ("External links" instead of "External Links") is the approved Wikipedia style, so I changed them back. See Manual of Style (headings). JamesMLane 15:18, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ramesses
Hi there, Paul (or James). I see you just moved Ramses to Ramesses -- please take a look at How to rename (move) a page. To move a page, you should use the "move this page" command and not cut&paste the content from one article to another, because that way we lose all the previous editing history. It can be fixed, and it's not a major problem on a lousy disambig page like Ramesses, but it could well get you into hot water on a more controversial article.

Re the choice between the two (three) spellings, is that a layman/expert thing? Britannica and Encarta both use Ramses (which I thought was the more modern use, after learning Ramesses all those years ago at school), but I see a lot of Ramesses on .eg sites (SCA, Zahi Hawass). What's your take on that? –Hajor 18:01, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow, a professional Egyptologist! I look forward to seeing you rewrite some of my more amateurish and inaccurate articles on Ancient Egyptian affairs. Re replying here or there: I've been moving to the back-and-forth style (like this) of late -- it ensures the other party's going to see the message, and it makes following the conversation a tiny bit more cumbersome for outsiders. I've been having a look at www.ancientneareast.net/ too: impressive endeavour, well done! (Among the first things I noted was that your article on Ahmose is streets ahead of the one here...) Best, –Hajor 19:14, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Moore section in Bush article
Sorry for deleting your section, just felt it was not appropriate. Maybe a note about Moore can be included in another way since it is unique for Bush to get such a strong opposition from prominent film-makers, musicians and others and that this opposition is so successful in spreading its message. Get-back-world-respect 12:13, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ancient Egypt wikiproject
Are you aware of the recently started WikiProject Ancient Egypt? We'd appreciate your input there, if you have a moment or two. Lively discussion so far mostly on the talk page. Regards, –Hajor 21:51, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ramesses/Ramses
Hi, could you please add a note on Talk:Ramesses to explain why you moved the page from the most commonly used English form (which is the Wikipedia rule for page names) to something else? In particular, that page says:

 * The Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage.

Not that I particularly object to using the scholarly convention for the spelling (as you can see from my comments on the Talk: page, after I gave the carefully-gathered statistics on the most common spelling variants in use), but if you're going to not follow the Wikipedia rules, you should explain why, someplace where everyone can find it. Are you going to do all the pages for the individual pharaohs too? If so, remember you need to check on What links here and fix all the references, to avoid the extra redirect. Noel 17:39, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi, thanks for getting back to us about that. I'll lend a hand with renaming everything into consistency, getting rid of double links, etc. Noel 14:41, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 2000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Archaeology question?
How would one set about getting an independent confirmation of authencity on an ushabti. I'm planning on loaning one to the Michelson Museum of Art and they need independent confirmation (I'd kind of like one myself, just on to be on the safe side.) Its supposed to be from the Late period, I believe. I'd also like to upload a picture of it for the ushabti article, so it's relevant to wikipedia. I'd appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks. -JCarriker 21:26, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Community Portal
James, are you planning to inform me (and indirectly, everyone else with the same concern) where you're moving my comment to? Or did you just delete it, thinking that my concern was too minor even to address?

The community portal should serve the community. Please don't sweep concerns under the rug via the minor edit checkbox. Uncle Ed 14:50, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive
Wackymacs 07:12, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

cold war AID
I accidently removed the AID tags the first time, but the reason the article tag was removed a second time (not by me) is that some people think the tags should only go on the talk page. May the Wiki be with you--ragesoss 19:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Re: Cold War
Thanks for the kind words, regarding my work on the Cold War. Who knows? Maybe we can make it good enough to be a Featured Article. -- Clevelander 00:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

ACOTF
You voted for Rum Rebellion. It has been selected as the new Australian Collaboration. Please help to improve the article. Thanks. Scott Davis Talk 12:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

CSIRO is ACOTF
Hi. You voted for Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation as Australian Collaboration. It has been selected, so please help to improve this article in any way you can. Thanks. Scott Davis Talk 15:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!
Posted by (^'-')^ Covington 07:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC), on behalf of the the AID Maintenance Team

Sculpture stubs
Thanks for flagging Diadumenos, Discophoros and Doryphoros as stubs. You might like to know that there's a specific stub category related to sculpture - which will bring the article to the attention of people who can help, that bit faster than a general stub. If you're interested, Stub_categories has the full list. Scottkeir 00:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Please Help
Posted by (^'-')^ Covington 02:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC) on behalf of the AID Maintenance Team

Please help on Ancient Egypt
Posted by Pruneau 18:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC) on behalf of the AID Maintenance Team

Woy Woy
I'd just like to take the chance to thank you for fixing up the stub, Woy Woy, and making it more encyclopedic. It was on my to-do list, and still is (citation etc.), bu you sure have made my job easier. Thanks. --Killfest2 05:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You helped choose this week's WP:AID winner
- Davodd 05:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Flanders Fields Stamp (Canadian).jpg
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Photo
Hi, just started an article on the Cyprus Museum and wandered if you would be willing to transfer the photo you entered on  over to wikipedia for use in this article. Cheers! StephP

AfD nomination of Gilgamesh in popular culture
Gilgamesh in popular culture, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that Gilgamesh in popular culture satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Gilgamesh in popular culture and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of Gilgamesh in popular culture during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. --  Jreferee  (Talk) 02:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Pjamescowie 2002.jpg listed for deletion
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Schuschnigg.jpg
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File:Flanders Fields Stamp (Canadian).jpg listed for deletion
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Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Pjamescowie! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 4 of the articles that you created  are tagged as Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring these articles up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the list:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Basil Hennessy -
 * 2) David Ussishkin -
 * 3) Shuka Dorfmann -
 * 4) Bernie Fraser (economist) -

Proposed deletion of Juan Kouyoumdjian

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Proposed deletion of Gil Stein (archaeologist)

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 * Notability unclear, challenged a week ago and no response.

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I have now nominated this article for deletion. PatGallacher (talk) 11:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Article notability notification
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title: User talk:Pjamescowie


text:
User talk:53claudiasiu

Welcome
Hello, welcome to Wikipedia.

You might find these links helpful in creating new pages or helping with the above tasks: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too.

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. If you made any edits before you got an account, you might be interested in assigning those to your username. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

 * If you made any edits before you got an account, you might be interested in assigning those to your username.

 * You can sign your name using three tildes, like this: . If you use four, you can add a datestamp too.

 * If you ever think a page or image should be deleted, please list it at the votes for deletion page. There is also a votes for undeletion page if you want to retrieve something that you think should not have been deleted.

Again, welcome! - UtherSRG 20:30, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Class.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:Class.JPG. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Unspecified source for Image:Class.JPG
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Class.JPG)
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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:53claudiasiu


text:
Threatened species

A threatened species is any species (including animals, plants and fungi) which is vulnerable to extinction in the near future. Species that are threatened are sometimes characterised by the population dynamics measure of critical depensation, a mathematical measure of biomass related to population growth rate. This quantitative metric is one method of evaluating the degree of endangerment without direct reference to human activity.

IUCN definition
The International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) is the foremost authority on threatened species, and treats threatened species not as a single category, but as a group of three categories, depending on the degree to which they are threatened:

 * Vulnerable species
 * Endangered species
 * Critically endangered species

Less-than-threatened categories are near threatened, least concern, and the no longer assigned category of conservation dependent. Species that have not been evaluated (NE), or do not have sufficient data (data deficient) also are not considered "threatened" by the IUCN.

Although threatened and vulnerable may be used interchangeably when discussing IUCN categories, the term threatened is generally used to refer to the three categories (critically endangered, endangered, and vulnerable), while vulnerable is used to refer to the least at risk of those three categories. They may be used interchangeably in most contexts however, as all vulnerable species are threatened species (vulnerable is a category of threatened species); and, as the more at-risk categories of threatened species (namely endangered and critically endangered) must, by definition, also qualify as vulnerable species, all threatened species may also be considered vulnerable.

Threatened species are also referred to as a red-listed species, as they are listed in the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

Subspecies, populations and stocks may also be classified as threatened.

Federal
The Commonwealth of Australia (federal government) has legislation for categorising and protecting endangered species, namely the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999, which is known in short as the EPBC Act. This Act has six categories: extinct, extinct in the wild, critically endangered, endangered, vulnerable, and conservation dependent, as defined in Section 179 of the Act. These could be summarised as:
 * "Extinct" – "no reasonable doubt that the last member of the species has died";
 * "Extinct in the wild" – "known only to survive in cultivation" and "despite exhaustive surveys" has not been seen in the wild;
 * "Critically endangered" – "extremely high risk of extinction in the wild in the immediate future";
 * "Endangered" – "very high risk of extinction in the wild in the near future";
 * "Vulnerable" – "high risk of extinction in the wild in medium-term future"; and
 * "Conservation dependent" – "focus of a specific conservation program" without which the species would enter one of the above categories.

The EPBC Act also recognises and protects threatened ecosystems such as plant communities, and Ramsar Convention wetlands used by migratory birds.

Lists of threatened species are drawn up under the Act and these lists are the primary reference to threatened species in Australia. The Species Profile and Threats Database (SPRAT) is a searchable online database about species and ecological communities listed under the EPBC Act. It provides information on what the species looks like, its population and distribution, habitat, movements, feeding, reproduction and taxonomic comments.

A Threatened Mammal Index, publicly launched on 22 April 2020 and combined with the Threatened Bird Index (created 2018 ) as the Threatened Species Index, is a research collaboration of the National Environmental Science Program's Threatened Species Recovery Hub, the University of Queensland and BirdLife Australia. It does not show detailed data of individual species, but shows overall trends, and the data can be downloaded via a web-app "to allow trends for different taxonomic groups or regions to be explored and compared". The Index uses data visualisation tools to show data clearly in graphic form, including a graph from 1985 to present of the main index, geographical representation, monitoring consistency and time series and species accumulation. In April 2020 the Mammal Index reported that there had been a decline of more than a third of threatened mammal numbers in the 20 years between 1995 and 2016, but the data also show that targeted conservation efforts are working. The Threatened Mammal Index "is compiled from more than 400,000 individual surveys, and contains population trends for 57 of Australia's threatened or near-threatened terrestrial and marine mammal species".

States and territories
Individual states and territories of Australia are bound under the EPBC Act, but may also have legislation which gives further protection to certain species, for example Western Australia's Wildlife Conservation Act 1950. Some species, such as Lewin's rail (Lewinia pectoralis), are not listed as threatened species under the EPBC Act, but they may be recognised as threatened by individual states or territories.

Pests and weeds, climate change and habitat loss are some of the key threatening processes faced by native plants and animals listed by the Department of Planning, Industry and Environment of New South Wales.

Germany
The German Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (Bundesamt für Naturschutz, BfN) publishes a regional Red List for Germany of at least 48000 animals and 24000 plants and fungi. The scheme for categorization is similar to that of the IUCN, but adds a "warning list", includes species endangered to an unknown extend, and rare species that are not endangered, but are highly at risk of extinction due to the small population.

Federal
Under the Endangered Species Act in the United States, "threatened" is defined as "any species which is likely to become an endangered species within the foreseeable future throughout all or a significant portion of its range". It is the less protected of the two protected categories. The Bay checkerspot butterfly (Euphydryas editha bayensis) is an example of a threatened subspecies protected under the Endangered Species Act.

States
Within the U.S., state wildlife agencies have the authority under the ESA to manage species which are considered endangered or threatened within their state but not within all states, and which therefore are not included on the national list of endangered and threatened species. For example, the trumpeter swan (Cygnus buccinator) is threatened in the state of Minnesota, while large populations still remain in Canada and Alaska.

title: Threatened species


text:
Juxtaglomerular apparatus

The juxtaglomerular apparatus (also known as the juxtaglomerular complex) is a structure in the kidney that regulates the function of each nephron, the functional units of the kidney. The juxtaglomerular apparatus is named because it is next to (juxta- ) the glomerulus.

The juxtaglomerular apparatus consists of three types of cells:
 * 1) the macula densa, in the distal straight tubule (thick ascending limb of the loop of Henle), after which the distal convoluted tubule begins
 * 2) juxtaglomerular cells, (also known as granular cells) which secrete renin
 * 3) extraglomerular mesangial cells

Location
The juxtaglomerular apparatus is part of the kidney nephron, next to the glomerulus. It is found between afferent arteriole and the thick ascending limb of the loop of Henle (distal straight tubule) of the same nephron. This location is critical to its function in regulating renal blood flow and glomerular filtration rate.

Juxtaglomerular cells

Renin is produced by juxtaglomerular cells, also known as granular cells. These cells are similar to epithelium and are located in the tunica media of the afferent arterioles as they enter the glomeruli. The juxtaglomerular cells secrete renin in response to:

 * Stimulation of the beta-1 adrenergic receptor
 * Decrease in renal perfusion pressure (detected directly by the juxtaglomerular cells)
 * Decrease in NaCl concentration at the macula densa, often due to a decrease in glomerular filtration rate

Extraglomerular mesangial cells
Extraglomerular mesangial cells are located in the junction between the afferent and efferent arterioles. These cells have a contractile property similar to vascular smooth muscles and thus play a role in “regulating GFR” by altering the vessel diameter. Renin is also found in these cells.

Macula densa
At the point where the afferent arterioles enter the glomerulus and the efferent arteriole leaves it, the tubule of the nephron touches the arterioles of the glomerulus from which it arose. At this location, in the wall of the last portion of distal straight tubule, there is a modified region of tubular epithelium called the macula densa.(Fig. 5 in Kumaran and Hanukoglu 2020) Cells in the macula densa respond to changes in the sodium chloride levels in the distal tubule of the nephron via the tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF) loop. Within the thick ascending limb of the loop of Henle, the distal convoluted tubule begins immediately following the macula densa.

The macula densa's detection of elevated sodium chloride, which leads to a decrease in GFR, is based on the concept of purinergic signaling. An increase in the salt concentration causes several cell signals (e.g. adenosine release) that leads to constriction of the adjacent afferent arteriole. This decreases the amount of blood coming from the afferent arterioles to the glomerular capillaries, and therefore decreases the amount of fluid that goes from the glomerular capillaries into the Bowman's space (the glomerular filtration rate (GFR)).

When there is a decrease in the sodium concentration, less sodium is reabsorbed in the macular densa cells. The cells increase the production of nitric oxide and prostaglandins to vasodilate the afferent arterioles and increase renin release.

See Also: TGF mechanism.

Clinical significance
Excess secretion of renin by the juxtaglomerular cells can lead to excess activity of the renin–angiotensin system, hypertension and an increase in blood volume. This is not responsive to the usual treatment for essential hypertension, namely medications and lifestyle modification.

One cause of this can be increased renin production due to narrowing of the renal artery, or a juxtaglomerular cell tumor that produces renin. These will lead to secondary hyperaldosteronism, which will cause hypertension, high blood sodium, low blood potassium, and metabolic alkalosis.

title: Juxtaglomerular apparatus


text:
Talk:Kalki

Kalki of Satpanth
You forgot to talk about the Ginans and Kalki Avatar of Ismaili Khoja and Satpanth also in vaniş agam for rajistan Nizarpanth. 178.52.69.251 (talk) 06:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "unreliable source"
@Chronikhiles, the source(astrojyoti) you removed is (and was) actually being used before in the article. And are you sure that this source is in the book? (22) Because when I added that info I checked it in the astrojyoti site.

Thanks Tusharhero (talk) 02:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

 * @Tusharhero I see, is there a reason why you shifted the Rocher source from the sentence that ended with Vaikuntha to your newly added inclusion? That gives the misleading impression that your inclusion is sourced. I will shift it to where it was before for now, but do let me know if you have an explanation. This article still has many unreliable sources, unfortunately, I know that. I'll try to replace the astrojyoti source with a more reliable one if possible. Chronikhiles (talk)  04:32, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @ChronikhilesI made a mistake by shifting the Rocher source. I got the information about the Buddhist city from the astrojyoti source. I think we can find a better translation/commentary for the Kalki purana and use that as the source for this information.
 * PS: How do you get that color on your name? Tusharhero (talk) 05:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I've deleted the unreliable sources of the section and added primary sources from the English translation of the Kalki Purana itself. Do try to find if there are other translations as well, as many of the sources I added were from the same book.
 * Look into Signatures. Chronikhiles (talk)  05:14, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Karki does not mean white.
However, karka does seem to mean "white horse" in Sanskrit. 203.144.67.36 (talk) 13:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Why Muslims don’t follow even it shows the following People who claimed to be Kalki Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, claimed to be the Kalki Avatar, as well as the Mahdi. In the Baháʼí Faith, Baháʼu'lláh is identified as Kalki as well as the prophesied redeeming messenger of God at the end of the world, as claimed in the Bábí religion, Judaism (Mashiach), Christianity (Messiah), Islam (Masih and Mahdi), Buddhism (Maitreya), Zoroastrianism (Shah Bahram), and other religions. Various Muslim missionaries in South Asia – such as Siddiq Hussain of Shia sect of Islam – seeking to convert Hindus to their sect of Islam; they either claimed themselves to be Kalki, or claimed that "all" the Shia Imamswere Kalki, or claimed Muhammad was Kalki. Kalki Bhagavan, born Vijaykumar Naidu, born on 7 March 1949, founder of Oneness University. Samael Aun Weor, founder of the Universal Christian Gnostic Movement. Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi of Kalki Avatar Foundation. Please explain 2603:6081:600:A08E:5F2:837E:62A8:500C (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

John mitchner?
"According to John Mitchiner, the Kalki concept owes "in some measure" to Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and other concepts." Where is the evidence of this? This is completely untrue and contradicted by Mahabharata texts.That line should be removed. 117.221.221.14 (talk) 17:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2024
Change "descent" to "descendant" Anant.damle (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Not done: "Descent" is correct usage here. PianoDan (talk) 21:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kalki


text:
Talk:Sarkel

Untitled
There is an error here. The Don & Poltava aren't in the same spot as implied.

24.105.197.133

It was indeed an error. The city of Poltava, for instance, is located on the Vorskla River in eastern Ukraine. Sarkel was definitely located on the Don River in what is now southern Russia. I fixed this by removing the erroneous sentence about Poltava - what would be helpful would be the name of the current province/district where Sarkel resided. I would like to remind people to stop defacing entries about Khazars with speculations and errors. KAB, 19 July 2004

The article claims that the town's name is spelled Şarkil in "Turkic". What is "Turkic"? If it is Turkish or Tatar, these languages have no relation to the inhabitants of Sarkel. Better spell it in Old Russian. Furthermore, Vernadsky asserts that the name is Ugric (Magyar?) rather than Turkic. -- Ghirla -трёп-  14:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It can easily be Hungarian (Magyar): sár=mud, sárga=yellow, sark=corner, hey=place, sárgáll=looking yellow, -ey=made of/kind of..., but unfortunatelly the possibilities are numerous, hard to decide. 178.48.177.1 (talk) 11:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

White Fortress
Nae'blis asked for a citation for the translation White Tower on Talk:White Tower (which is for a disambiguation page). I moved that request here (for the translation White Fortress, more or less the same thing). If somebody cites this, fine; but if it's wrong (or if Fortress is OK but Tower is wrong or questionable), then you may want to remove the listing from White Tower. —Toby Bartels 23:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * See my proposed solution in White Tower. --Zlerman (talk) 13:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Belaya Vezha
Why does this term link here? 139.139.67.70 (talk) 15:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Excavations 2009: wrong attribution of photos
The colour photographs showing pictures of an excavation in 2009 are NOT, as implied by their posting on this page, from Sarkel (which is also called Levoberezhnoe Tsimlyanskoe), but from the Khazar site on the opposite bank called Pravoberezhnoe Tsimlyanskoe. The 2009 excavation at the latter site was directed by V.S. Flyorov (Institute of Archaeology, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow). In fact, the Russian captions of the photographs (which pop up with the high-resolution versions of the photographs) do say this, but they do not explain that this site is not Sarkel. A Russian colleague who was present during that 2009 excavation believes that the photographs are by Flyorov himself. I cannot check that, but it looks likely. Whatever the copyright issues, the photographs should be removed because they do not relate to the subject of the article.

V.S. Flyorov, 'Cities' and 'Castles' of the Khazarian kaganate: Archaeological reality (Moscow and Jerusalem 2011), part. p. 46 ill. 7. Klumpenburg (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Confusion about the location
This article confuses two separate and nearby locations. Like the previous contributor said, "Sarkel (which is also called Levoberezhnoe Tsimlyanskoe)" ... "Khazar site on the opposite bank called Pravoberezhnoe Tsimlyanskoe".

Sarkel was on left bank of the Don (or close to it), now under water.

Pravoberezhnoe Tsimlyanskoe gorodishche ("Right-bank Tsimlyanskoe settlement") still stands on the right bank of the Don.

In the Russian wiki, there are two articles about two sites, as it should be. Needs to be fixed. Y-barton (talk) 23:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sarkel


text:
Eaton's Corrasable Bond

Eaton's Corrasable Bond is a trademarked name for a brand of erasable typing paper. Erasable paper has a glazed or coated surface which is almost invisible, is easily removed by friction, and accepts typewriter ink fairly well. Removing the coating removes the ink on top of it, so mistakes can be easily erased once. After erasure, the paper itself is exposed, and further mistakes cannot be easily erased.

Because the coated surface does not absorb ink, documents printed on erasable paper are prone to smudging. Since the coating is intended to be easily removed by friction, the typed pages are not very durable. Under some storage conditions, the coating can cause pages to stick together. Erasable paper is not suitable for legal documents or archival records. It was available in a number of thicknesses.

Eaton's Corrasable Bond is no longer manufactured.

In the United States, Eaton's Corrasable Bond was a very familiar brand of erasable typing paper during the mid-1950s and 1960s, and "corrasable" became almost a generic name for erasable typing paper. For example, in prohibiting the use of such paper for manuscript submissions, the Linguistic Society of America refers to "Eaton's 'Corrasable Bond' and similar brands."

Writer Peter David, who worked as an editor's assistant at the E. P. Dutton imprint Elsevier/Nelson before becoming a professional writer, once related finding a submission written on erasable bond, which made the print difficult to read. In a 1992 Comics Buyer's Guide column in which he provided aspiring writers with tips on composing submissions, he stated, "Don't write on anything other than standard-weight white bond paper. I don't care what Abe Lincoln or Jack Kerouac wrote on; you're not Lincoln or Kerouac. And for crying out loud, don't use erasable bond. That wasn't a dodge the writer used in Misery to get Annie out of the house; no real writer types on erasable bond."

In fiction
The paper is mentioned in the Stephen King novel Misery, when Annie Wilkes buys it for Paul Sheldon, thinking that since it is the most expensive paper, it has to be the best. When Paul shows Annie that Corrasable Bond is smudge-prone, and hence detested by editors, Annie thinks he is being ungrateful and, in a fit of bad temper, smashes her fist down onto a sitting Paul Sheldon's shattered knee, causing him agonizing pain. In the film adaptation, she instead smashes his knee with the ream of paper itself.

"Divorce or Corrasable Bond" is a poem by Daniela Gioseffi.

In the tenth chapter of Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar, Esther, the main character, mentions this paper when she sets up a place to start writing a novel. "I counted out three hundred and fifty sheets of corrasable bond from my mother's stock"...

In the first chapter of T.C. Boyle's Outside looking in, there is a Ford Fairlane that has tires "worn as smooth as the sheets of Corrasable Bond".

title: Eaton's Corrasable Bond


text:
Talk:Shang dynasty

Establishment year 1555/1554 BC
With reference to this edit; The dates of the establishment of the Shang dynasty proposed by Pankenier and Nivison (1555/1554 BC) are I far as I see it not in the conflict with the result of the more approximate dating 1600 BC from the Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project. I would say that the Pankenier and Nivison dates are trustworthy and is a further development of the research. I propose to use 1554 BC as the main date for the establishment of the Shang dynasty in this article. (Same goes for the corresponding dates for Xia dynasty). BR --Bairuilong (talk) 09:34, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Why are these dates trustworthy? Nivison agrees with Pankenier, but no-one else seems to. Indeed most other workers regard the "current text" Bamboo Annals, on which these dates are based, as unreliable. Perhaps the more approximate date is an accurate reflection of the state of the field. Kanguole 10:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You write that no-one seems to trust Nivison and Pankenier. Can you please give some references that support that credible historians distrust 1555/1554 BC? Thank you in advance! BR/--Bairuilong (talk) 10:53, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That's the wrong way round. References are needed to show that these dates are accepted.
 * As for the "current text" Bamboo Annals being distrusted, see e.g. Keightley "The Bamboo Annals and Shang-Chou Chronology", Barnard "Astronomical data from ancient Chinese records: the requirements of historical research methodology". Kanguole 11:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You are referring to old publications that I don't think give support against 1555/1554 BC. However, there are a huge number of publications that support 1555/1554 BC. First of all of course several publications by Nivison and Pankenier, and besides that for example: Maisels "Early Civilizations of the Old World", Feng "Early China: A Social And Cultural History", Hägerdal "Kinas historia". It's easy to list several more. (Interesting that you mention Keightley as argument against 1554 BC, since he actually has accepted 1554 BC.).
 * I can not see any relevant argument against 1555/1554 BC, but on the other hand a lot of support. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 12:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If you are surveying third-party sources, you'll find that even more of them say 1600 BC.
 * Incidentally, although Li Feng says that Keightley has accepted this date, if you look at the citation he gives you'll see that Keightley is reporting Pankenier's calculation, but not endorsing it. (Which is not surprising, since Keightley's focus was what can be found in excavated texts, which start centuries later.)
 * There is a diversity of views, so there is no justification for presenting the 1555/1554 BC date as a bald fact. Per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, we should present the significant alternative views and say who holds them: Pankenier and Nivison say this and XSZ says that. Nor is it appropriate to call it the latest research, since Pankenier's work (early 1980s) and Nivison's agreement (around 1990) pre-date the XSZ project. Kanguole 16:18, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course all relevant alternative should be presented in the article. I agree about that for sure. The point is what should be in the infobox. You have not shown anything that support your statement that no-one seems to trust Nivison and Pankenier, and the opposite is easy to find - there are a lot of reliable sources that support 1555/1554 BC, and both Nivison and Pankenier are heavily credible sources on this subject. Of course it is possible to find sources that still write 1600 BC (and also 1766 BC, 1675 BC and 1559 BC), but that is not an argument for us to forever stick to 1600 BC. Specially since it is not so hard to find criticism of the XSZ project and its result. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 16:59, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In saying "still write 1600 BC", you are clinging to the idea that the Pankenier/Nivison proposal is the most recent research, when in fact it is the other way round: the XSZ project was conducted after their proposal.
 * Both proposals have been criticized, and both are cited (but as I said, the XSZ project dates are cited more often). So both should be presented as the views of their proposers.
 * As you say, that leaves the field in the infobox. It is inappropriate to present 1554 BC as the definitive answer here. You might well reply that it is also inappropriate to present 1600 BC as the sole answer. So a less definite statement seems to be called for, say "early 16th century BC". Kanguole 17:31, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for a constructive reasoning. The essence of my point is that Pankenier/Nivison hold the most credible alternative according to my understanding.
 * I am also aware that there are margins of error to indicate exact years for event several thousand years back in time with this level of sources. I guess we will never be totally sure, and this also applies, for example, to 1046 BC and several other year for this millennium. Nevertheless we need to select the information from the most credible source. It seems that your opinion is that XSZ project is the most credible. I agreed with that for a long time, but have changed my mind the more I read about the Pankenier/Nivison research.
 * I appreciate that you make a compromise proposal, but I want to make a counter-proposal: "1550s BC". How about that? BR --Bairuilong (talk) 17:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The 1554 BC date is based on a five-planet conjunction that supposedly occurred in 1576 BC. This was centuries before writing was introduced to China, so there is nothing resembling a contemporary record. Venus was 40 degrees away from conjunction on the night in question, so it was four-planet conjunction. These are too common to be used for chronology. What are the chances that both the beginning and the end of the Shang dynasty were predicted by five-planet conjunctions? The ancients loved cyclical history and astrologers had an interest in promoting the idea that events can be predicted by astrology. IMO, a round number is best when dating a possibly mythical event. See "Astro-Historigraphic Chronologies of Early China are Unfounded:"
 * "Several researchers have made proposals for a chronology of ancient China that rely on records of astronomical events—solar  eclipses  or  five-planet conjunctions. It is shown herein that either the events did not occur or there is no reliable record of them, or both, and that such problems are unrectifiable." While XSZ is based on eclipse data, Cambridge History uses a dating system based on five-planet conjunctions, according to the article.
 * As for the Bamboo Annals, it records an eclipse in 776 BC that did not occur. This supposed eclipse was at one time quite well known to historians, but it was later debunked. Spring and Autumn Annals records solar eclipses on 3 April 645 BC,15 May 592 BC, 19 September 552 BC, and 18 July 549 BC. None of these supposed eclipses actually occurred.
 * 1600 BC is by far the most commonly given start date for the Shang dynasty, according to this ngram. This has been the case going back to the 19th century, long before XSZ. Fairnesscounts (talk) 01:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, we will certainly not base the dating in our articles on Google-statistic. Add (2001 - 1046 BC) to your statistic, and you have a winner, and a food for thought what your graphics show. Your statistical graphics have very little in common with the state of research for the dating of the Shang Dynasty. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 03:24, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * To also give a more nuanced answer and comment on the Keenan-article:
 * Keenan places great emphasis on the fact that he judge that Venus was to far away from the other planets 1576 BC in order to be counted as a true five-planet conjunction. However, it is quite extreme to make that assessment of the exact meaning what "五星錯行" meant when was written thousands years ago. It is also important to add the fact that not least Nivison add a important layer of chronology synchronisation on top of the years for the astronomical event. The 1576 BC planet conjunction is only one part of the background to the 1555/1554 BC dating. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 08:49, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the XSZ project is particularly credible, though I do appreciate their modesty in choosing a round number. The truth is that there can be very little basis for dating events from centuries prior to the invention of writing in a given part of the world. All we can do is assess which dates are the most used in the sources. It is possible to trick ngrams, but it is still true that 1600 BC is the most commonly used date.
 * Astronomical events offer very precise dates, but using them for this period means using the "current text" Bamboo Annals, which most (but not all) scholars believe to be a Ming-era forgery – even champions of the "current text" like Nivison and Shaughnessy acknowledge that they are in the minority. Even the original Bamboo Annals was compiled in the Warring States period, more than a millennium after the dates at issue. Pankenier then has to interpret opaque passages as referring to five-planet conjunctions in certain parts of the sky. Nivison's dating is based on a complex re-interpretation of the reign lengths given in the "current text" Bamboo Annals; he acknowledges that almost no-one agrees with him on this. They build elaborate structures, on completely unreliable foundations.
 * "1550s" is a less precise version of 1555, but it is still unjustifiably precise. Kanguole 09:57, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * First: We should definitely drop the discussions of what is most frequent published. We need to focus on judge which credible source publishes what.
 * Having said that; If we should find a dating formulation that cover result from both XSZ project and Pankenier/Nivison I think we need to look at the background to "1600 BC". The way I understand this date is that the XSZ project could not agree if Erlitou Phase III belongs to Xia or Shang. Rounded worded I think we can say that the joint between Phase II and III is about 1600 BC and the joint between Phase III and IV is about 1560 BC. My conclusion of this is that the XSZ project-intention is that Shang begins about 1600 BC or about 1560 BC, and the round date "c. 1600 BC" could be imprecise enough to cover both alternative. I think the expression: "First half of 16th century BC" cover the intention of XSZ project and the Pankenier/Nivison dates. Could this be something? BR --Bairuilong (talk) 11:25, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Keightley (1999), David Keightley's essay for Cambridge History, is the most cited serious source on Shang China, including 14 times in this article. It is also recommended by Wilkinson (2013), a manual for historians of China. Keightley dates the dynasty as "ca. 1570-1045 BC." Fairbank & Goldman (2006) gets 12 citations. (This is harder to justify since it has only a few pages on the Shang.) In any case, it dates the dynasty as 1750–1040 BC. Lee (2002) gets four cites. His dates are 1600-1046 BC. He cites XSZ.
 * Encyclopedia.com returns Gale Encyclopedia of World History, which gives 1766 to 1122 BC, and Oxford World Encyclopedia, which gives c.1523–c.1030 bc. Oxford Reference returns Berkshire Encyclopedia of China, which gives 1766 bce–1045 bce.
 * Since our sourcing consists primarily of Cambridge History authors and editors such as Keightley, Bagley, and Shaughnessy, I would conclude that we should be using the Cambridge History date for the beginning of the dynasty, namely c. 1570 BC. Fairnesscounts (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As far as I see, the year 1570 BC is only mentioned within parenthesis in the Cambridge History. When Keightley in chapter "Chronology / Absolute Dating" goes in to details regarding dating of the beginning of the dynasty he actually referring to Pankenier and the dating 1554 BC, and he does not give any other dates more weight. I still would say that "First half of 16th century BC" is the best interpretation of the existing source state, if we decide to not go for 1554 BC. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 03:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What source says "first half of 16th century BC"? Surely Cambridge History is better than using no source. Fairnesscounts (talk) 08:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can find the background to the proposal if you read my text above from 11:25, 23 July 2022 that it is a way to include both the intention from the XSZ project and the Pankenier/Nivison dates in an inclusive expression. I think "Cambridge History of Ancient China" is a good source. The way I understand the Shang dating chapter (D.N. Keightley, chapter "Chronology / Absolute Dating". page 248) is that the only relevant year mentioned for the establishment of the Shang is 1554 BC (with reference to Pankenier). The "1570" within parenthesis is not mentioned and left without explanation in the text. If we strictly should follow Cambridge History of Ancient China, then I think we should go for 1554 BC. That's also fine - and that was my original suggestion in this discussion. BR --Bairuilong (talk) 16:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What you are proposing is called WP:SYNTHESIS. The most common solution is to use 1600 BC as the start date of this dynasty. It's a nice round number that confesses lack of precise knowledge. Dates based on Chinese astrology are notoriously inaccurate. This one seems particularly suspicious since it is centuries before the introduction of writing. Fairnesscounts (talk) 18:50, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Point taken about synthesis. So you don't any longer support that we should follow Cambridge History? XSZ project just became the most credible source, or how should I understand your sudden reversal? BR --Bairuilong (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not a fan of XSZ. The inclusion of the mythical Xia dynasty shows that the project is driven by nationalism. But the 1600 BC date was widely used before XSZ. Violence, Kinship, and the Early Chinese State (2018) by Roderick Campbell has a good take on this. Instead of dynasties, he has periods based on archaeology. There's an Erlitou Period (ca. 1800–1600 BC), an Erligang Period (ca. 1600–1400 BC), a Xiaoshuangqiao-Huanbei Period (ca. 1400–1250 BC), and an Anyang Period (ca. 1250–1050 BC). Fairnesscounts (talk) 09:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I see you propose new sources in every post. Can you please come back to my question above why you suddenly changed your mind about Cambridge History and Keightley? Have you actually read the Absolute Dating-chapter? BR --Bairuilong (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I gave the start date as "1570 BC" because IMO this is the most regular way to do it under our guidelines. It is the way the founding of the dynasty is given by our principle source, namely Cambridge History. There are certainly problems with the date. If you look at Campbell, he doesn't mention 1570 BC at all. Keightley doesn't explain where the date comes from. Fairnesscounts (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You are correct that it is not explained where 1570 BC comes from, and it is also just mentioned briefly within parentheses, so we don't need to put so much attention to that year. On the other hand, the section about the first year of Shang in the Absolut dating-chapter (page 248), Keightley quote: "[...] Using the absolute date of such astronomical events it is possible to conclude that the first year of Chang Tang would have been 1554." (with reference to Pankenier). This is the only specific starting date for the Shang that Cambridge History of Ancient China point at as far as I have seen. It is not easy to get around the fact that Cambridge History supports 1554 BC. Best regards, --Bairuilong (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

too-detailed scholarly discussion of dates in lede?
Reading the first paragraph of this article, I am surprised by the in-text inclusion of the names of three scholars and a scholarly project (Pankenier, Nivision, Shaughnessy, and the Xia-Shang-Zhou Chronology Project) in debate with each other on the dating of this dynasty. This is valuable for certain, but perhaps too much detail for the first paragraph. I suggest instead, after the sentence on how the current text of the Bamboo Annals suggests rule dates of 1556 to 1046 BC, something like: “Modern scholarship supports this chronology, and radiocarbon dating from archeological sites has suggested a founding date as early as c. 1600 BC.” Interested readers could turn to the Absolute Chronology section for more detailed information. Thoughts? Resaliest (talk) 04:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 100% they need to be discussed as is, but yes the place for that is in their own section and not the lead. The lead can just begin with the generally accepted dates and acknowledgement of dispute or simply say that the specific dates are disputed within a range of ~. — Llywelyn II   03:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason to mention the traditional dates at all in the lead, considering there is practically no use of them in contemporary academia.  Aza24  (talk)   06:41, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion
has more on the Shang's relationship with the south in the area that later became Chu, Wu, and Yue. — Llywelyn II   03:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Copyvio paragraph
Given recent incidents in articles around early Chinese history/archeology, I've been more wary of copyvio—this revision by Porcinipal appears to plagiarize a paragraph pretty much verbatim from the source it's attached to, which is unacceptable. It's only one, but I suppose I've been seeing it too much in this space to be happy about it. Remsense 留  02:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Spot-checking their other contributions, they seem to do this with approximately one paragraph per article. Remsense  留  02:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Qing dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shang dynasty


text:
Lenaia

The Lenaia (Λήναια) was an annual Athenian festival with a dramatic competition. It was one of the lesser festivals of Athens and Ionia in ancient Greece. The Lenaia took place in Athens in Gamelion, roughly corresponding to January. The festival was in honour of Dionysus Lenaios. There is also evidence the festival also took place in Delphi.

The term Lenaia probably comes from "lenos" 'wine-press' or from "lenai", another name for the Maenads (the female worshippers of Dionysus).

Overview
The Lenaia is depicted on numerous vases, which show both typical Maenad scenes and those of aristocrats and wine-mixing rituals. It is unknown exactly what kind of worship occurred at the festival, but it may have been in honor of Dionysus as a youth or the rebirth of Dionysus after his murder by the Titans. It may have also had some connection with the Eleusinian Mysteries, as some of the same religious officials were involved (such as the Archon basileus  and the epimeletai). These officials led the procession (πομπή pompe), which probably ended with a sacrifice. The references we have mention a procession and ἀγών held ‘by torchlight,’ where an Eleusian official, originating in Athens, called upon or invoked Dionysus. Then, the chorus would respond ‘Iacchos, son of Semele, Πλουτοδότης.’ Most of all, the festival appears to be an agrarian one. It was celebrated at a crucial time for propitiating the awakening of nature. Specifically, the grape and wine, symbolised by the god himself, his death and reemergence from the underworld. Though, this was not the time of the grape harvest, but rather when the vines were pruned.

The festival may have had rites for women. The coincidence of invoking Iacchus, seen as Dionysus as a child, by torchlight and commemorating the myth of the god's death and rebirth. This happened both in Delphi and in Athens in the Lenaia, in the same season, winter. It further supports the idea that Attic Lenaia had a specific ritual involving women, the followers of the god. The ritual associated in this case with the idea of the resurrection of the god associated with wine production and the wine press. Though, whether or not it was a festival for women, or that festival heavily involved them, is still a debate. In Athens, there was no mention of a women's festival. However, that could be due to that women are associated with Dionysus's secret and sacred rites, which wouldn't normally be talked about or made public.

Athenian woman probably participated in the nocturnal rites. They may have played an important role in ‘calling’ or invoking the god. But, they were not the main focus and are not even mentioned in the texts. However, women are depicted on Attic vases as being close to the process of wine production along with the unmixed wine. Along with that, the satyrs of untamed nature are also found, along with the god himself.

In Athens, the festival was originally held in the Lenaion (possibly a theatre outside the city or a section of the Agora) but probably moved to the Theatre of Dionysus by the mid-fifth century. Beginning in the second half of the 5th century BC, plays were performed (as they were at the City Dionysia festival later in the year). The audiences for the Lenaia were usually limited to the local population, since travel by sea at that time of year was considered unsafe. Metics, however, were apparently allowed to both participate and act as choregoi. Around 442 BC, new comic contests were officially included in the Lenaia, though plays may have been performed there earlier on an informal basis. At first, the festival held dramatic competitions only for comedy, but in 432 BC a tragic contest was introduced. Many of Aristophanes' plays were first performed there, such as 'Knights'. As with the competition at the City Dionysia, five comedies usually competed (except during the Peloponnesian War when only three were staged). When the contest for tragedy was introduced, two tragedians competed, each presenting two plays. There is no evidence of satyr plays being performed, but dithyrambs were included in the third century BC. Towards the end of the century, the festival's plays were performed in the Theatre of Dionysus (although it is unclear when this location was first used). It is unknown when the Lenaia was abandoned, but contests of some sort continued into the 2nd century BC.

Modern celebration and revival
Practitioners of the revived religion of Ancient Greece, known as Hellenic Polytheists, seek to restore ancient festivals such as the Lenaia. Reconstructionists take from primary sources and secondary sources to reconstruct the festival itself. Some ways Hellenic Polytheists celebrate is by drinking, partying, and overall merriment. They also celebrate by watching plays, especially Aristophanes’s plays, such as The Frogs. Reciting hymns to Dionysus, especially the Orphic hymns, may also be done to honour the god to celebrate. Overall, the key elements of the modern festival try to match the one in antiquity.

title: Lenaia


text:
Talk:Rallying

Requested move 12 June 2024
Rallying → Rally (motorsport) – "Rallying" remains vague, as it can apply in literally every other type of sport "rally" is a term as well as the stock market. It is not an adequate disambiguation. Britannica calls it "rally" so that's what I went with here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 18:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose - Britannica does not care for sources or usage, or factual accuracies: for one, rallying by definition of any motorsport governing body is explicitly not racing like they say.
 * Your point sounds like it mixes Wikipedia articles for Wiktionary entries IMO. I never hear in other sports, or anybody at a political campaign rally that people are rallying to necessitate a move. There's nothing at Rally to suggest it needs to. Sure, a stock can be rallying, but is there ever likely to be an article for that?
 * Lastly, Rally (motorsport) sounds like a noun, an event, not the wider sport/discipline of rallying. Rally Wonk (talk) 16:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Support either Rally (motorsport) or Rallying (motorsport). No clear primary topic here. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per King of Hearts -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 08:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose Rallying is a sport in it's own right instead of being a description of something that can happen in other sports. It is a name. Noun vs verb. --Falcadore (talk) 11:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Rallying is an important political activity, so not just sports. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 21:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Political rallies have an alternative description and it's an activity with blurred distinction. Also "rallying" is not used to describe that act of a political rallies. Politics may have a claim on "rally", but not rallying. Rallying is the name of the sport. -- Falcadore (talk) 09:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as unnecessary disambiguation. The other meanings for rallying relate to dictionary-style usage (WP:NOT). Prolog (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We have articles on the others, such as political rally; to the general public, the political topic is likely primary, as the motorsports topic is niche. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 21:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Political rally redirects to political demonstration, which has 2,615 views in 30 days. Rallying has 15,392 views in the same period.
 * If Political rally is the common use, the redirect should be addressed before this proposal is necessary. Then, it should be discussed if Rally (politics) should be the correct article title.
 * I dispute your claim that the general public would see the political type first, especially outside North America. I'm certainly not able to recall usage of the term in the UK where I currently am.
 * As mentioned, article titles don't have to work like a dictionary. Disams and primary topics should be out of necessity, not completionism. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In addition to the above, the word "rallying" never appears in that article. Prolog (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If you look at Google News "rallying", "rally", "rallies", they are almost all about the political concept, except for some about the economics concept. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The hits for "rallying" on Google News are 60% about the motorsport (30 out of the first 50 hits). Seven hits for the term "rallying cry". Four were about the stock market and another four about cryptocurrency. Two hits for political rallying and basketball, and one for baseball. Nobody disputes the multiple meanings for "rally" and "rallies". Prolog (talk) 07:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed - nobody disputes the multiple meaning.
 * Google News uses profiling to give tailored results, it is not helpful to measure against as we don't know what of your personal information Google is using. I don't log in and am privacy conscious, the first 5 results I got was through prose - '(Politician/football manager) issues rallying cry/call'. It's not a topic, just a dictionary term being hit. The sixth result is "Rallying - Rovanpera overtakes Mikkelsen in Poland". That is topical use. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as noted by Rally Wonk, Political rally redirects to Political demonstration which has an order of magnitude fewer page views that the current page. Polyamorph (talk) 08:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Revert back to Rally racing per WP:RETAIN. See this talk page discussion from 2004-2005. It appears that the article was originally created as Rally racing and subsequently moved to Rallying by User:Loganberry. 162 etc. (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, Category:Rally racing was never moved, and is inconsistent with the current article title. 162 etc. (talk) 22:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * On my user page you can read that Rally racing began as the official term in the United States by governing bodies that did not comply with the authority of the FIA, the international governing body for Rallying with member organisations in 200 territories. The FIA officially describes rallying as not racing. Category:Rallying also exists. There could be separate articles, but there is evidently no demand to contribute to what is an American name.
 * If there are sources for use of Rally racing from outside of the USA, it would support this proposal, else, I can't help but feel this point is USA vs ROTW for the second time. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:55, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:RETAIN is very clear on this: "With few exceptions (...), there is no valid reason for changing from one acceptable option to another (English variety.)" "Rally racing" is synonymous with rallying, and that's the name that was used when the article was created.  There is no valid reason not to use Rally racing as the article's title. 162 etc. (talk) 21:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * A comment on the reasons already given why Rally racing is not an acceptable option would be helpful. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "Rally racing" isn't the term FIA prefers, but it meets WP:COMMONNAME, and I don't see any reason to deviate from our Manual of Style.
 * Whether "Rally racing" is used outside of American English is also irrelevant; see WP:ENGVAR. 162 etc. (talk) 23:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's a touch of ignorance, disrespect and tunnel vision there. The rest of the world is irrelevant? Rally racing would have come long after, and as result of, the breakdown of AAA in the 50s, which itself came 45 years after the first rallies.
 * If the reliable sources exist for the current content under rally racing, please share some we could use with particular focus to:
 * Touring concentrations
 * Rallying on roads open to public traffic
 * Cross-country
 * Navigational rallies
 * TSDs
 * Eco-rallies
 * It seems to me you are on a personal mission to move a page for the sake of moving it, shaping arguments using any policies and archived conversations you can find, whilst showing no regard for having any understanding of the article subject itself. Rally Wonk (talk) 00:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And it seems to me that you are completely disregarding well-established policies and guidelines in the name of keeping a title which fits well with your personal biases. 162 etc. (talk) 01:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I accept the policies and guidelines in general. I challenged applying them to this article based on the facts and sources available. Then, I disregarded the irrelevant policies you mentioned.
 * Nobody supports your proposal, let's not waste our energies discussing this any further. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:RETAIN, WP:ENGVAR, and WP:COMMONNAME are certainly not "irrelevant", and I trust that the closer of this discussion will uphold the policies and guidelines on which this encyclopedia is built. 162 etc. (talk) 16:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Google Books has 1600 hits for "rallying" "world rally championship" and 200 hits for "rally racing" "world rally championship". 1500 hits for "rallying" "audi quattro" and 90 hits "rally racing" "audi quattro". "Rally racing" is clearly not the common name and the page was appropriately moved 20 years ago. Prolog (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Comment: The proposal does not suggest that Rallying should be used for anything like a disambiguation. After this move, Rallying would redirect to the new article. As the first eight words of the article are "Rallying is a wide-ranging form of motorsport...; the argument behind the proposal (that 'Rallying is vague'), is rather weak. Isn't it the case that if one wants to find out more about something, maybe they should read the article, not just the title?
 * Rally Wonk (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Except that if you look through Google News, you will not find the motorsports topic, you will instead find the political one and the business one. Thus, motorsports isn't primary. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is false, as noted above. The motorsport is the primary topic for "rallying" on Google News. Prolog (talk) 07:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The motorsport term is the primary topic because no other rallying article exists. That's different to notability or commonality which is maybe what you are trying to say? It's very hard to understand the need for disambiguation when:
 * Rallying (political) does not exist, and Political rally redirects to another article - meaning it is not even the primary topic within its own topic.
 * Rally (tennis) is a dictionary definition and not worthy of an article. It says see also Glossary of tennis terms which has the same content. I cannot read about the history of rallying in tennis, who the great rallying players are... There's not really anywhere this article can go.
 * Rally (stock market) is another dictionary definition, again not worthy of article. It probably is already, but should be another line in a glossary.
 * I'm not doubting use of the word rally or rallying or even whether they are topics. I question whether these are topics to be covered by an encyclopaedia article. Following that, is the need to disambiguate. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose. This is the by far the most primary encyclopedic usage for "rallying". The proposal is definitely a solution looking for a problem. — Amakuru (talk) 14:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: Relist, to allow additional discussion both of the proposed title and the alternative of Rally racing BilledMammal (talk) 18:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: Don't know the answer here but noting that if you don't know what Rallying is supposed to be about, Rally race or Rally (motorsport) definitely make it clear. That said, sometimes terms are just bad and you have to use them. Mrfoogles (talk) 23:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * On consideration: Oppose by common name. Mrfoogles (talk) 23:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Support, the political and financial markets meanings are common enough to make clarification of the title here usefull. Newystats (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - disam page for other usages works as they currently stand. Pelmeen10 (talk) 12:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Per WP:COMMONNAME. Hansen Sebastian Talk 05:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It does seem inconsistent to have the noun disambiguated but not the verb. How can we really tell that only one of these is ambiguous for the average English reader (note, not just the average politics fan or a sports fan)? --Joy (talk) 09:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joy The verb here is the noun, it's the common name of the discipline/sport. It's not commonly known as motorsport rallying, car rallying, rally racing etc. Until another rallying use case article exists there's no policy to suggest it needs to be disambiguated. Anybody who reads the first sentence of this article is immediately informed what it is about. It makes sense to disam rally because of the articles that do exist. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not what I'm saying. The average reader may well also recognize the sport as simply "rally", and know other things as "rallying". We're making those readers to go through extra navigation elements, but not those who recognize the sport as "rallying". How do we measure that the size of the former two contingents of readers is significantly smaller than the size of the latter? --Joy (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To me, the common name is for the benefit of the average reader. Rallying is already listed on Rally and when I type 'rally' in the search box, rallying is the first suggested article, so I'm not sure where the extra steps are.
 * A good comparison here is auto racing, truck racing, motorcycle racing, boat racing etc... they are all doing words split from racing, (handily disambiguated already but rallying cannot justify this, especially as some rallies have various vehicles in the same event). Like rally, there are many different definitions of race. I could argue that racing should refer to those other forms too, say the the candidates are racing to the White house in the 'election race' found in 'other uses', but there is no encyclopaedic content to create for it. I've asked a few times but still not seen where the encyclopaedic content for the other 'rallying' things is. It still sounds like as somebody mentioned already, this is trying to solve an invented problem.
 * For the record, I would accept this proposal if it's for the right reasons, but so far I am not understanding any. That's why I am involving myself heavily in this discussion. Rally Wonk (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's the extra step, having to pick from the list. The same one that would be introduced if the motorsport article was moved. It's completely plausible that racing should be moved based on consistency, yes. --Joy (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So there is scope for an encyclopaedic entry for Racing (election)? To me, it sounds like a dictionary entry for a word that would occasionally appear on Election or Elections in... articles, not a topic itself. I'm not seeing it at other encyclopaedias either, which is making it harder to understand this POV. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, on the contrary, I just don't have a very strict view of what is ambiguous - topics in the encyclopedia don't have to be standalone to be ambiguous in usage, or indeed significance. Obviously we don't want to cater to pure dictionary usage, but there's so much to organizing navigation around ambiguity beyond that. --Joy (talk) 09:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Seems like a rock-solid rationale there due to the phrase being ambiguous. Nothing else to add, really. Steel1943  (talk) 02:37, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rallying


text:
Baron Talbot of Malahide

Baron Talbot of Malahide (or de Malahide) is a title that has been created twice for members of the same family—in 1831 in the Peerage of Ireland as Baron Talbot of Malahide, and in 1856 in the Peerage of the United Kingdom as Baron Talbot de Malahide. While the barony of 1856 became extinct in 1973, the barony of 1831 is extant. The ancestral seat of the family until 1976 was Malahide Castle, close to the village of that name, north of Dublin, Ireland.

History
The Normans arrived from England in 1171. With their superior armour and weapons they quickly captured Dublin, forcing the Danish king, Hamund MacTurkill, to retire to his lands in Kinsaley. From here he endeavoured to mobilise a fleet to recapture Dublin but failed and was subsequently beheaded. Among the invading Normans was Sir Richard de Talbot, a young knight from Shrewsbury but of French descent. He served his master, King Henry II, well in the invasion of Ireland and was rewarded with a grant of lands around Malahide about 1185. In 1475, his descendant had his standing further enhanced when King Edward IV conferred the title ‘Lord High Admiral of Malahide and the Seas Adjoining’ with an entitlement to customs dues. Beginning with a ‘motte and bailey’, a fortified enclosure, at Wheatfield opposite the Community School, the Talbots later built a fortified stone castle beside the nearby ancient church of St. Fenweis. Talbots occupied their castle continuously for eight hundred years except for the period from 1653 to 1660 when John Talbot and his family were sent to Connaught under the notorious ‘To Hell or to Connaught’ edict in Cromwellian times.

The first creation, as Baron Talbot of Malahide, in the County of Dublin, was in the Peerage of Ireland in 1831 for Margaret Talbot, née O'Reilly, the widow of Richard Talbot, heir of the ancient Lords of Malahide. She was succeeded by their eldest son, the second Baron. In 1839 he was created Baron Furnival, of Malahide in the County of Dublin, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom. However, this title became extinct on his death, while he was succeeded in the Irish barony by his younger brother, the third Baron. The latter was succeeded by his son, the fourth Baron. In 1856 he was created Baron Talbot de Malahide, of Malahide in the County of Dublin, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, and later held office as a government whip in the Liberal administrations of Lord Palmerston and Lord Russell.

When he died the titles passed to his eldest son, the fifth Baron, who married firstly Emily Harriette Boswell (d. 1898) and then Isabel Gurney, an English philanthropist. This line of the family failed on the death in 1948 of the fifth baron's son, the sixth Baron. The peerages were inherited by the late Baron's first cousin, the seventh Baron. He was the son of the Honourable Milo George Talbot, fourth son of the fourth Baron. Lord Talbot de Malahide was a diplomat and notably served as British Ambassador to Laos from 1955 to 1956. However, on his death in 1973 the barony of 1856 became extinct, while the Irish peerage passed to his third cousin, the eighth Baron. He was the second son of John Reginald Charles Talbot, grandson of Admiral The Hon. Sir John Talbot, third son of the first Baroness. When he died the title passed to his younger brother, the ninth Baron. The latter was succeeded by his first cousin once removed, the tenth holder of the title. In turn he was succeeded by his son in 2016.

The 10th Baron Talbot of Malahide was the son of Reginald John Arthur Arundell (who in 1945 assumed by Royal licence the surname and arms of Arundell), eldest son of Reginald Aloysius Talbot (grandson of the aforementioned Admiral the Hon. Sir John Talbot) and his wife, Mabile Mary Arundell, daughter of Hon. Robert Arthur Arundell, fourth son of James Everard Arundell, 9th Baron Arundell of Wardour and Charlotte Stuart Parkin, youngest daughter of Dr. Henry Parkin, RN, Inspector-General of Hospitals and Fleets. Lord Talbot of Malahide also holds the title Hereditary Lord Admiral of Malahide and Adjacent Seas (created by King Edward IV). His wife Patricia Mary, Lady Talbot of Malahide, is a Dame of the Sovereign Order of Malta.

The Honourable Sir John Talbot, third son of the first Baroness Talbot of Malahide, was a naval commander. The Honourable Thomas Talbot, fourth son of the first Baroness, was a Canadian politician. Two of Lady Talbot of Malahide's brothers are also notable: Hugh O'Reilly took the surname of Nugent and was created a baronet in 1795 (see Nugent Baronets), while Andrew O'Reilly was a General der Kavallerie in the Austrian Army and made a Count of the Austrian Empire.

Barons Talbot de Malahide (1831 and 1856)

 * Margaret Talbot, 1st Baroness Talbot of Malahide (I) (died 1834)
 * Richard Wogan Talbot, 2nd Baron Talbot of Malahide (I), 1st & last Baron Furnival (UK) (1766–1849)
 * James Talbot, 3rd Baron Talbot of Malahide (I) (1767–1850)
 * James Talbot, 4th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I), 1st Baron Talbot de Malahide (UK) (1805–1883)
 * Richard Wogan Talbot, 5th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I), 2nd Baron Talbot de Malahide (UK) (1846–1921)
 * James Boswell Talbot, 6th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I), 3rd Baron Talbot de Malahide (UK) (1874–1948)
 * Milo John Reginald Talbot, 7th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I), 4th and last Baron Talbot de Malahide (UK) (1912–1973)
 * Reginald Stanislaus Victor Talbot, 8th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I) (1897–1975)
 * Joseph Hubert George Talbot, 9th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I) (1899–1987)
 * (Reginald) John Richard Arundell, 10th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I) (1931–2016)
 * Richard John Tennant Arundell, 11th Baron Talbot of Malahide (I)  (born 1957)

The heir apparent is the present holder's son Hon. John Richard Arundell (born 1998).

title: Baron Talbot of Malahide


text:
Werburgh

Werburgh (also Wærburh, Werburh, Werburga, meaning "true city"; Vereburga; c. AD 650 – 3 February 700) was an Anglo-Saxon princess who became the patron saint of the city of Chester in Cheshire. Her feast day is 3 February.

Life
Werburgh was born at Stone (now in Staffordshire), and was the daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia (himself the Christian son of the pagan King Penda of Mercia) and his wife St Ermenilda, herself daughter of the King of Kent. She obtained her father's consent to enter the Abbey of Ely, which had been founded by her great-aunt Etheldreda (or Audrey), the first Abbess of Ely and former queen of Northumbria, whose fame was widespread. Werburgh was trained at home by St Chad (afterwards Bishop of Lichfield), and by her mother; and in the cloister by her aunt and grandmother. Werburgh was a nun for most of her life. During some of her life she was resident in Weedon Bec, Northamptonshire.

Werburgh was instrumental in convent reform across England. She eventually succeeded her mother Ermenilda, her grandmother Seaxburh, and great-aunt Etheldreda as fourth Abbess of Ely. She died on 3 February 700 and was buried at Hanbury in Staffordshire.

Veneration
Following Werburgh's death, her brother Coenred became king of Mercia. In 708 he decided to move his sister's remains to a more conspicuous place within the church at Hanbury. When the tomb was opened, her body was found to be miraculously intact. This preservation was taken as a sign of divine favour. A year later Coenred had abdicated as king and taken holy orders, becoming a monk in Rome. It was at this time that the most famous story about Werburgh appeared, according to which she restored a dead goose to life after it had been eaten, as recounted by the medieval hagiographer Goscelin. A stained glass window in the Church of St Peter and St Paul, Weedon Bec, Northamptonshire relates to another tale in which she was said to have banished all the geese from the village.

The shrine of St Werberh remained at Hanbury until the threat from Danish Viking raids in the late 9th century prompted their relocation to within the walled city of Chester. A shrine to St Werberh was established at the Church of St Peter and St Paul (the site is now occupied by Chester Cathedral). In 975, the Church of St Peter and St Paul was re-dedicated to St Werburgh and the Northumbrian saint Oswald. A monastery in the names of these two saints was attached to the church in the 11th century.

By 1057 the Abbey church was rebuilt and further endowed by Leofric, Earl of Mercia. By this time, Werburgh was regarded as the patron saint and protector of Chester. A miracle attributed to her was the unexpected withdrawal of the Welsh king Gruffudd ap Llywelyn from besieging the city.

Even after 1066 and the Norman conquest of England, the shrine of St Werburgh was a place of veneration. In 1093, Hugh d'Avranches, the second Norman Earl of Chester, presented gifts of property to the abbey and had the church enlarged and rebuilt. He also established a Benedictine monastery. Its monks came from Bec Abbey in Normandy, which had provided the first two post-Conquest Archbishops of Canterbury: Lanfranc and Anselm. Like many other Anglo-Norman barons, Hugh d'Avranches entered the monastery shortly before he died and, in turn, was buried there. During the Middle Ages, the badge of a gaggle of geese was adopted as proof of having made a pilgrimage to the Shrine of St Werburgh. In 1540 the dissolution of the abbey led to the creation of Chester Cathedral, which was rededicated to Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Although an elaborate shrine had been constructed in the 14th century to Werburgh, this was broken up at the time of the Dissolution. Werburgh's relics were lost. Parts of the shrine's stonework that survived were reassembled in 1876. The shrine remains on display in the cathedral's Lady Chapel at the back of the main nave.

Today
St Werburgh remains the patron saint of Chester. Her feast day is 3 February.

At least ten churches in England, and some overseas, are dedicated to St Werburgh, including those in Dublin, Derby, Stoke-on-Trent and Spondon. The village of Warburton in Greater Manchester (previously Cheshire) is named after its parish church of St Werburgh, and a neighbourhood in Bristol is named St Werburghs after its church (now a climbing centre). The Manchester Metrolink line to East Didsbury has St Werburgh's Road, at the crossroads with Wilbraham Road where there is a church dedicated to St Werburgh.

title: Werburgh


text:
Talk:Operation Corporate

Is this page necessary except as a redirect to the F war page? 207.189.98.44 20:41, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Maybe not, I like military codewords and so tend to post pages on those lines. Perhaps this page is more a of a military history of that war. I see no harm in keeping it. Paul, in Saudi

It is necessary. Operation Corporate is not the same as the entire war, in the same way that Operation Rosario is not representative of the entire war. David Newton 13:31, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Bit too one-sided piece. It's certainly not over-the-top, but I think it crosses the line a tad. Needs to be more objective -- less pro-Brit.

 * Pazouzou 09:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * How the hell is it 'pro-Brit'? Douglasnicol 23:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Get rid of this unnecessary stub. Mztourist (talk) 09:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Operation Corporate


text:
Baron Louth

Baron Louth is a title in the Peerage of Ireland. It has been created twice.

History
The title was created firstly c. 1458 for Sir Thomas Bathe, later Chief Baron of the Irish Exchequer. Although he had at least one son, John Bathe of Ardee, the title seems to have become extinct soon after his death in 1478.

It was created secondly in 1541 for Sir Oliver Plunkett. His great-great-great-grandson, the seventh Baron, served as Lord Lieutenant of County Louth. However, he later supported King James II and was outlawed. His great-great-grandson, the eleventh Baron, managed to obtain a reversal of the outlawry and was restored to the title. the title is held by the latter's great-great-great-great-grandson, the seventeenth Baron, who succeeded his father in 2013.

Admiral Peter Warren was a female-line great-grandson of the fifth Baron.

Saint Oliver Plunkett was very distantly related to the Barons of Louth.

Barons Louth, first creation (c.1458)

 * Thomas Bathe, 1st Baron Louth (died 1478)

Barons Louth, second creation (1541)

 * Oliver Plunkett, 1st Baron Louth (died 1555)
 * Thomas Plunkett, 2nd Baron Louth (c. 1547–1571)
 * Patrick Plunkett, 3rd Baron Louth (1548–1575)
 * Oliver Plunkett, 4th Baron Louth (died 1607)
 * Matthew Plunkett, 5th Baron Louth (died 1629)
 * Oliver Plunkett, 6th Baron Louth (1608–1679)
 * Matthew Plunkett, 7th Baron Louth (died 1689) (outlawed)
 * Oliver Plunkett, de jure 8th Baron Louth (1668–1707)
 * Matthew Plunkett, de jure 9th Baron Louth (1698–1754)
 * Oliver Plunkett, de jure 10th Baron Louth (1727–1763)
 * Thomas Oliver Plunkett, 11th Baron Louth (1757–1823) (restored to title)
 * Thomas Oliver Plunkett, 12th Baron Louth (1809–1849)
 * Randal Percy Otway Plunkett, 13th Baron Louth (1832–1883)
 * Randal Pilgrim Ralph Plunkett, 14th Baron Louth (1868–1941)
 * Otway Randal Percy Oliver Plunkett, 15th Baron Louth (1892–1950)
 * Otway Michael James Oliver Plunkett, 16th Baron Louth (1929–2013)
 * Jonathan Oliver Plunkett, 17th Baron Louth (born 1952)

The heir apparent is the present holder's son Hon. Matthew Oliver Plunkett (born 1982) The heir apparent's heir, and the next in line, is his elder son Samuel Murray Plunkett (born 2012)

Seat
The family seat was Louth Hall, near Ardee, County Louth.

title: Baron Louth