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Talk:Dreamcast

Sourcing comment
Just wanted to say that, if anyone ever plans on taking this thing to FAC, there's a big job ahead of them. Back in 2014, I scanned around 200 pages of Dreamcast magazine coverage for Red Phoenix, and it's all still available here. Most of it has not been cited in the article, and I don't think any Dreamcast FA could be considered comprehensive without a careful trawling of this material. Even if most of it is redundant (a distinct possibility), it still has to be double-checked before FAC, in case there are holes in the present article. Plus, I see a lot of weak sources in the article currently (GameSpot and IGN coverage from the 90s, for example) that could be replaced by stronger magazine citations. There's a disproportionate number of online sources in general, given the era in which the Dreamcast was released. All of this is fine for a GA, but, for the future, I wanted to let people know (since Red Phoenix has retired) that this scan cache exists. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree about the scope of the undertaking. Dreamcast had a very thorough GA review that lasted a couple of months, during which time it was improved considerably—from looking like this to looking much closer to the current version. In that time, the number of sources in the article more than doubled. Red Phoenix's contributions steadily declined in the middle of the review, leaving Indrian and I to finish up, and before the article was promoted I made a point of checking every single one of your scans. I recall very little that wasn't redundant, although I was quick to add what new material I could, such as this great anecdote from EGM November 1998. It's possible RP and I missed something, but I doubt we missed very much. I am unaware that easily-checked online sources are less reliable than print sources, but I would also point out that I added quite a few Game Informers from the period.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If the scanned stuff has been explored, then that changes things. (I'm not sure that RP read most of it himself, so you're likely the only one who's gone through it all.) However, no matter how easy they are to check, GameSpot and IGN weren't very strong sources in the 90s. I've seen that fact sink FACs in the past, actually. And an over-reliance on Internet sources for a subject that was largely pre-Internet can be a problem. Something to keep in mind, at the very least. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2015
Total Sales is suspect. All references to 10.6 million sold should be changed to 9.13 million sold

The multiple references to 10.6 million console sales are unsubstantiated and are not sourced from a verifiable resource. Actual verifiable resources from Sega shows that only 9.13 million units were produced and shipped. in their 2001 Anual Report it's stated "for respective totals of 8.20 million units" with the remaining 930,000 units accounted for in their Revision later that year "with domestic sales of 130,000 units and U.S. sales of 530,000 units for the first half.- Consequently, at the end of the half, Dreamcast inventories totaled 40,000 units domestically and 230,000 units for the United States, and we anticipate being able to sell all remaining units by the holiday season as initially planned." Jcgarmatz (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Jcgarmatz (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2015 (UTC) ❌ Many reliable sources verify the 10.6 figure. Sergecross73  msg me  02:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2015
58.70.199.213 (talk) 09:59, 30 October 2015 (UTC) Japanese wikipedia has accurate source that only 9.13 million Dreamcasts were ever produced. This makes the English sites 10.6million totally inaccurate.
 * The current source, http://web.archive.org/web/20080905175406/http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/111822/the-10-worst-selling-consoles-of-all-time/ - is considered a reliable source per WP:VG/S, and is widely correlated by other sources. Sergecross73   msg me  11:08, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I know this is not a forum
However, if the editors are refusing to check actual facts what is the point of Wikipedia? How isa blog an accurate source over the manufacturer as a source? Seems both childish and pathetic. Add to the fact we have it clearly stated on the Japanese Wiki the Japanese company made 9.13 million units this whole 10.6 million figure is now nothing more that a bad joke.

The editors are abusing power here instead of looking at facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.70.199.213 (talk) 11:55, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * As I noted in your second section below, none of the edit warring IPs were changing the article to 9.13 million or quoting a source. The reverts were for disruptive edits changing to an unsourced 6.4 million, many of the edits resulting in citation/template errors. -- ferret (talk) 14:17, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Shenmue release date?
Hi guys. Sorry to post here, as it's a little off-topic, but no one has responded to my post on the Shenmue talk page. I've been doing a lot of work on the various Shenmue articles, but try as I might I can't find a reliable source anywhere stating the Japanese and European release dates for Shenmue 1. Does anyone know where I could find these? Popcornduff (talk) 04:48, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

According to Sega Financial reports, Dreamcast sold 8.20 Million, not 10.6 or 9.13.
https://www.segasammy.co.jp/japanese/ir/library/pdf/printing_archive/2001/sega/sega_annual_tuuki_2001.pdf Here is the link to the official sales report form SEGA 2001, can someone correct the sales in the article?.
 * It's been discussed extensively above, you may want to read through that first... Sergecross73   msg me  19:04, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * TL;DR? 9.13 million is Sega's official number. 8.2 million is from an earlier financial report covering the time period through March 31, 2001. Sega still had a fairly significant (relative to the total number of units manufactured) amount of unsold Dreamcast inventory that was subsequently cleared out at heavily discounted prices (although, apparently not as much unsold inventory as was widely believed by journalists at the time).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:08, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Homebrewing community for the Dreamcast (KallistiOS)
There are active homebrew communities even today, and they are continuing to write software for the console. Some people feel as though the console never died. Would it be appropriate to add this to the article? Ryanalexmartin (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not without coverage in reliable sources. -- ferret (talk) 01:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Reliable sources such as the actual game studio called Josh Prod? They buy old IPs and mostly release them on the Dreamcast and is a registrered Developer. PettrK (talk) 07:58, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

External links modified
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Logo variations
Why is there no mention of the 3 different colours used for the logo on different regions machines?Aluminium Colours (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not necessarily against it, but it is rather unimportant. It's the same exact logo with a few color variations. Sergecross73   msg me  23:47, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe not important. But the fact that it has 3 different colours and the article doesn't even mention it. Someone curious would probably come to this article to find out why, only to find nothing.Aluminium Colours (talk) 10:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I think people generally go to Google for minor trivial whims like that, not sift through massive encyclopedia articles for a sentence or two on it. Sergecross73   msg me  19:49, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I think mentioning that Sega changed the logo color from orange to blue for marketing reasons in the west is probably notable, though? Popcornduff (talk) 09:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * If you want to add a sentence on it, sure. It doesn't strike me as that important, but it's not wrong. So as long as we're not proposing a "Marketing controversy" subsection with a whole paragraph about it, I'm fine with it. (I'm not suggesting you'd do that...but I've seen others do it. Sergecross73   msg me  12:48, 24 July 2017 (UTC))

Helping
Sega worked with Microsoft (Xbox) to create the Dreamcast. - TB57
 * I'm pretty sure the degree to which that is true, is already mentioned in the article. Sergecross73   msg me  00:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Sega Modem
Theres seems to be some issue at saying Sega had a built-in modem at the launch of its console. Considering most of the references on the page says this I don't understand the rsistance here. CD-i had models with built in modems so that two word addition to that paragraph, two words I stress, shouldn't be an issue. Especially since "at release" or "launched with" is used in many references in the Dreamcast article itself. At launch is to specify, and remove minor confusion. Spike Danton (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:00, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Wait, which CD-i models actually had built in modems instead of using the added modem and CD-Online disc, and where is that established? --tronvillain (talk) 16:28, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This is other editors concern, as well. Sergecross73   msg me  16:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay... and where is that established, exactly? --tronvillain (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Check the page history. (I’m talking about the other editors who also opposed Spike’s edit.) Sergecross73   msg me  16:54, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * 605, It has a browser in the launch menu when you turn on the system as well. For the separate modem, the models compatible with t need a disc to add a browser to them. I also would like to stress again, that a whole ton of references in the this article, also mention Modem "at release" or "at launch" the fact there's discussion on a two word specification is very odd. Also this is just about the CD-I the CDTV had models with built in modems to. I mean it's really not that big of a deal overall but there seems to be a notable resistance to a two word simple edit. Spike Danton (talk)
 * So, where is a reliable source for that? Nothing I can find seems to establish the existence of an integrated model of CD-I. That doesn't mean it didn't exist of course, but we need sources. --tronvillain (talk) 16:52, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Source? Sergecross73   msg me  16:54, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I provided a archive link to an old site on the CD-I page through the wayback machine. Also, I'd thrown in the VIS/CDTV as well, but I guess that would depend if wikipedia thinks of this as "actual game consoles" relative to the Dreamcast or just computers in console shells. Spike Danton (talk)
 * Please provide it here for review. Sergecross73   msg me  17:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This? A self-published source from 2005. If it were a reliable source it might establish the use of the Web-i name (though that could just be the name of the browser), but it doesn't even cover it being integrated. In fact, the page specifically talks about using an external modem. --tronvillain (talk) 17:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC): edited 17:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You seem not able to keep track of multiple things going on at once. That edit was to revert your citation on the web-i name. None of my edits relating to that involved the word "modem" and if you could tell time you would see this is not the source I was referring to. I was referring to the earlier one. Not the latest one which was made AFTER the fact. I also don't understand why you would ask "this one?" then proceed to assume that's the source I'm talking about when it doesn't even align with the rest of the edits. Spike Danton (talk)
 * Likewise, I don't understand why you don't just share the link and save everyone time, including yourself. -- ferret (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Serge reverted the link and then pretended he didn't know what link I'm talking about, something he's done multiple times he has no interest in any article hes reverting, and Tron decided to quickly grab a link and say that's the one i was referring to when it wasn't. Both of these happened right next to each other and both were when i was about to post the source myself. It's clear you guys are spending more time trying to prove me wrong then spending less than 20 seconds looking at one link that was made a few edits ago the CD-i page. Over two words, "At launch" which is also in a good number of references across the whole the whole damn Dreamcast article, so the fact you guys are freaking out over a TWO WORD edit doesn't make anysense. Everyone also omitted my CDTV (and VIS) mentions as well, so are you guys even really interested in the source or are you guys busy selectively reading so you can continue this circle? Because I'd be interested in an actual discussion on this but it doesn't seem like none of you are, especially since the responses so far only focus on a few things and not my whole posts. Spike Danton (talk)
 * Again, reminding you of WP:BURDEN, if you want to make changes, it’s up to you to prove your point and convince people. It’s on you here. Feel free to not provide it here. But then you will have no WP:CONSENSUS to make your change, and it won’t be implemented, simple as that. Prove your point or drop it. Sergecross73   msg me  18:01, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And stop accusing me of knowingly excluding correct changes. I’ve checked every source you’ve provided and have not seen anything that actually verified your claim. Sergecross73   msg me  18:02, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Edit: If people want to have a discussion on this topic please respond to my whole posts and not sections of it indicating you have no interest in discussion. Because I'd be interested in an actual discussion on this but it doesn't seem like none of you are, especially since the responses so far only focus on a few things and not my whole posts. So anyone that is actually interested in having a discussion on this topic, and not a person reverting edits in 2 seconds claiming they saw them, let me know. Because I'd almost say the two word edit should be applied just based on the gaming journalists references that already use the same wording I do "at launch" but of course i think it's also important to mention systems that are niche for historical accuracy. Spike Danton (talk) 18:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So where's the source? What's difficult in stopping your tirade against other editors and just posting the source, so there's no confusion at all about which source you meant, and the discussion can continue. Please read WP:V, WP:BURDEN and WP:Verifiability, not truth. Frankly we don't care what you know to be true. Wikipedia is built on sources, and without them this goes nowhere. -- ferret (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I already mentioned where the source is, and the rest of your post does nothing but keep the circle going because you are basically ignoring everything I'm writing and only to respond to what you want to. Maybe if you read you'd see where I mentioned where the source was in that same post you responded to. Hmmm. Spike Danton (talk) 18:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to go comb back over the last dozen revisions to these two pages looking for it, it's not my problem. You can post it here in this talk section and we discuss, or you can drop the stick and move on. Your call. -- ferret (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Again showing you still haven't read my above responses. If you have no interest on this issue say so don't pretend you care about the source when i already told you what article the edit is in and it's within the last 10 revisions on the article, which will show up on your screen immediately when you click on "View history" so saying you have to comb through things to find the source only tells me you haven't read a single thing here and you have no interest in this topic. Away with ye, I'll wait for another person to come by who isn't lazy. Spike Danton (talk) 18:44, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As I said, I literally cannot find source you’ve given that verifies your claim. And you’re in no position to demand others dig through your edits to prove a point that you yourself are trying to make. Sergecross73   msg me  18:31, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Earlier source? The screenshot on Imgur? That is absolutely not a reliable source - it's not even vaguely close to being a reliable source. --tronvillain (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you're here serge leave. Go revert more edits you never read. You pretending to care about this conversation helps nothing.
 * As for tron, it's amazing how you took the latest edit, than took it out of context, now you come back with the oldest edit, skipping over the one I said you can see as soon as you click on "view sources" not a coincidence. I said it was a wayback article why would it be that one? this is the second time now.
 * And finally once again not one person responds to the other things I mentioned, including the CDTv/VIS, and the multiple sources already in the article from gaming journalists and other wise also using "at launch" for the same reason I used it. Because they know saying ohther wise eould not be accurate. I mean if you guys really want to cause all this over a two word edit go ahead. I'm sure some reasonable guy will come or it'll likely be implemented later regardless of this page anyway. I'll let you continue the circular discussion on your own. Spike Danton (talk)
 * Keep it civil, please, and assume good faith. As has been politely pointed out multiple times by other editors (who I have no doubt are just as "reasonable" as your hypothetical future editor), the burden of proof is on you; it is not appropriate to ask other editors to do your legwork for you. If you have proof to back up your edit, link it directly. -- McDoob  AU93  19:12, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have no idea what you're talking about. Would it be so hard to provide the source here where the actual discussion is happening? Unless it's supposed to be this archive link, which appears to be a Philips professional technical support page index which says nothing about integrated modems. --tronvillain (talk) 19:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Source
The below little article in Next Generation seems to only have info that's already well-sourced in the WP article, but I'm not well-versed in Dreamcast history, so I'm a bit worried I may have overlooked something. If anyone wants to give it a look...--Martin IIIa (talk) 02:11, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

@Sergecross73
@Sergecross73

ok, but the legacy of Dreamcast is special, communities mention is relevant.

and what you mean with "Major regions only"? Australia is not a "major region", Russian Federation is much bigger and has one of the biggest video gaming markets in the world which is fast growing. sometimes it seems like Wikipedia is stucked in the past. but ok your choice. i believe this choice is not right --85.212.86.28 (talk) 03:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * When it comes to "major regions", what Sergecross73 is referring to is what has been covered in rigor in reliable sources. Reliable sources usually don't cover Russia as a region.  They do usually talk about Japan, North America, and either Europe or the entirety of PAL territories.  Australia is more relatively frequent as well.  This has to do with making sure we give due weight and not just list a bunch of statistics; that's not what Wikipedia is.  Usually numbers for other regions are only mentioned when that region has a special reason to be and is covered with rigor in reliable sources, such as how Brazil is covered in Master System because the console has survived so long there and has significant coverage.  Hope that helps!   Red Phoenix  talk  11:31, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is correct. The guidelines say to generally just use a few major regions in release. It’s a matter of bloat too - without any limit, every passerby adds another country on and before you know it, there’s a laundry list of 30 countries on there, all documenting the trivial variants of coming out on a different day of the week or whatever. And unless major third party websites (Gamespot, IGN, Eurogamer, etc) write about these fansites/fanbases/communities/etc, they fall outside the scope of what Wikipedia covers. Sergecross73   msg me  15:05, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits
I appreciate the edits made by, but I'm afraid I have to revert such edits in good faith. Reasons are as follows: If you feel that the information should be included in the article, please feel free to discuss. Thanks! –  Hounder4  10:41, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The lead section contains information that is not included elsewhere in the article. Any new information should be placed in the article's body under appropriate sections instead.
 * Some sources that back such information may not be reliable (i.e. content from self-published sources or websites with user-generated content).

Thank you for your reply Hounder4! I agree with you, however, I have lots of info to add, but I was on my cellphone and was actually fixing alot of this stuff, before I got a low battery warning, then 10seconds, (like wth, 10 seconds warning??) it just died. All gone. Anyway, one thing that annoys me about one particular Sega product on Wikipedia is the Sega Mega Drive, or, Genesis if you live in __ONE__ region where that name is correct. How come the rest of the world is ignored just because the site is in English? People in India has English as their language (although 2nd language) as well, yet I do believe they did not get the Genesis name on their consoles.

Best regards PettrK (talk) 11:52, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree with Hounders removal. Wikipedia needs to be written by what reliable sources say, and these additions were either unsourced or were added using unreliable sources. And you’re straight up not going to find the sourcing to call the Mega Drive Mini Segas “return to the console market”. That’s simply not how the industry has described it. Anyways, until you understand how to identify usable sources, I recommend seeing WP:VG/S for lists of sources generally deemed usable. Sergecross73   msg me  13:47, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

PettrK (talk) 07:38, 2 March 2020 (GMT+2) At E3, Sega themselves made this statement that since the Dreamcast, this is their first home consumer console and hardware production available at retailers. As in, this is the first time Sega has produced 1st party peripherals and console hardware since the Dreamcast. The console includes two games, which does not see an official release back in the day of Genesis and Mega Drive, and thus, this *IS* a console with it's own games. However, I agree somewhat in that it's based on a previous console, but that being said, thats like saying the manufacturers of, say, Google Stadia or Nvidia (Shield), is not in the hardware gaming business, something that is simply not true. Sega has undoubtedly re-entered the console manufacturing business for home consumers with this Mini console because it has games never been released at a "16"-bit console before, Darius and Tetris. How is this false? Before the release of the Mini, Sega's COO said the following, which is reported by Polygon: Just last week, Sega’s COO said the company was interested in getting back into the hardware business, following the explosive success of Nintendo’s classic reissues. "[...]Sega famously exited the hardware business after the failure of the Sega Dreamcast in 2001." and "Sega's COO says they're looking at getting back into the hardware game with a proper reissue of the Genesis/Mega Drive, no doubt inspired by Nintendo's wild success with the NES and SNES classic."

If this is not a reliable source, Polygon, then the guidelines for what is needs to be updated. This is a direct reference to the COO of Sega, about making a return to the hardware business - which did happen, in form of the Mini, as a first party console never before produced, and the first one since Sega. I highly disagree with you on this exact statement. However a next-generation console is never mentioned, but was never written anyway. PettrK (talk) 06:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

PSO
Regarding this edit, and this summary: "deletion of sourced, notable context due to the mistaken belief that influential games cannot have antecedents"

To clarify, that is not my belief, and I didn't say it was. My point is that it is odd to describe a game as influential, then, instead of explaining why or how it is influential, which would be interesting and relevant, explain only that it was inspired by another game. It's a non-sequitur.

The sources I supplied were (if I'm not mistaken) sources that credited PSO as a landmark game for being the first online console RPG. They were taken from the Phantasy Star Online article. Are we sure that the sources we now have back up the claim that it "is considered a landmark game for refining and simplifing Diablo's style of gameplay to appeal to console audiences"? Two of them 404/redirect for me and the other is a book I don't have access to. I am not sure that the fact that PSO was inspired by Diablo is what makes it important. Popcornfud (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's hard to find a source on Phantasy Star Online that fails to mention its obvious connection to Diablo. If we are following the sources, that inspiration provides important context that should not be obscured in the interest of shortening the article as an end in itself. The article does not state "that PSO was inspired by Diablo is what makes it important"; however, the current text (trimmed per your request) is fully supported by the cited sources. For example, 1UP.com's "The Decade That Was: Essential Newcomers" (which is still accessible on archive.is) states: "While [PSOs] design wasn't particularly massive, it was multiplayer and online, and it paved the way for larger-scale efforts such as Final Fantasy XI. More significantly, it established a template that would be copied and perfected by Capcom's Monster Hunter series. ... PSOs design wasn't entirely original. Its loot-driven cooperative action owed a tremendous debt to Blizzard's Diablo series. What Sega's Sonic Team accomplished with PSO, though, was a reinvention of an established PC adventure concept into something perfectly suited for the tastes and demands of console gamers. More importantly, it made both online gaming and the concept of fee-based services a reality for consoles."
 * Hopefully that resolves your concerns.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * For the sake of comparison, the entry in Mott 2013 by David McCarthy states: "When Phantasy Star Online was released in 2000, it wasn't the first online console game. ... But Phantasy Star Online was the first that felt like it really worked—and the first online game to adopt a console design sensibility, transforming it through the prism of online connectivity to create something truly original, something that probably couldn't have existed on a PC alone. Taking inspiration from massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) that were in abundance on PCs at the time, Phantasy Star Online took the connectivity and community of the genre but brought a more tightly contained, console-style adventuring."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , sorry, I completely forgot to reply to this.
 * Thanks for digging up those source quotes. I didn’t see that the archived links were in the refs. However... I don't think the article's current text, considered a landmark game for refining and simplifying Diablo's style of gameplay to appeal to console audiences, quite reflects the sources we're citing.
 * Right now the article implies that what made PSO important was that it adapted Diablo gameplay. The 1Up source does say that, but it then immediately says More importantly, it made both online gaming and the concept of fee-based services a reality for consoles. In other words, it is literally saying that the Diablo thing is not the most important thing about the game. Specifically, we are missing what seems to be the obviously important thing, which is that it was the first online console RPG.
 * Certainly many sources mention Diablo as an influence, but I don’t think they say PSO was important because of the Diablo influence alone. Would you object to this wording instead? Sonic Team's Phantasy Star Online, influenced by the PC game Diablo, was the first online console RPG. Popcornfud (talk) 14:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have any particular strong objection to that wording, but I also don't consider it to be a clear improvement over the current version or the previous long-standing version, not least of all because it omits the fact that Phantasy Star Online is considered a landmark game by many sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Certainly many sources mention Diablo as an influence, but I don’t think they say PSO was important because of the Diablo influence alone. Would you object to this wording instead? Sonic Team's Phantasy Star Online, influenced by the PC game Diablo, was the first online console RPG. Popcornfud (talk) 14:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have any particular strong objection to that wording, but I also don't consider it to be a clear improvement over the current version or the previous long-standing version, not least of all because it omits the fact that Phantasy Star Online is considered a landmark game by many sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have any particular strong objection to that wording, but I also don't consider it to be a clear improvement over the current version or the previous long-standing version, not least of all because it omits the fact that Phantasy Star Online is considered a landmark game by many sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

For that little bronze star...
I wanted to get your attention because of my past history with this article - reviews for it and Sega Saturn were not my finest hours as an editor, but I digress. I've been thinking long and hard about this, and with as well-written and well-referenced as this article is, plus six years of new sources that are bound to have been written (we just passed 20 years since the launch in 2019), I'd love to try and take this up to FA status. If it weren't for the fact that I'm really getting to this too late, I'd say March 2021 would have been a good time to get it on the main page for 20 years since its cancellation and the death of Sega as a hardware maker. But, I don't know even if I had all the time in the world that I could get it through FAC by then. Regardless, at least with an FA star, at the right time it could be the featured article of the day when it's appropriate.

The reason I'm pinging both of you is this: as much as I did do a lot to this article, I know most of the prose and referencing now is not my work; it's yours. WP:OWN aside, I don't want to step on anyone's toes if I start messing with things or decide to work on this further without consulting with those really behind this article first. It's also an FAC requirement, though I don't want to send it to FAC as-is. I guess I'd like to know two things:

1. Is everyone okay if I start working on this again and take it to FAC when it's ready? It may be a few months; I'm starting a new job this week.

2. Does anyone want to collaborate? I'm all for it, but I will understand if I'm going it alone.

You guys did a really great job with this article, much better than I was capable of in 2014. I'd love to see it stand among Wikipedia's best. Red Phoenix talk  21:29, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * As usual, I'd be happy to do copyediting sweeps if others do the research. I'm too lazy for the research. Popcornfud (talk) 21:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm always happy to answer any questions about text that I contributed, but beyond that I have nothing particularly new to say about this topic. I wish you (and the article) the best.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

 * Go for it! Indrian (talk) 03:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, guys, I appreciate the encouragement to proceed. Right now I'm still forming a plan on where it needs work, and it may take a while before I have it ready for a FAC.  Hopefully this'll add well to the Sega console FA's when all is said and done.   Red Phoenix  talk  01:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Nvidia involvement?
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NV1 and other sources around the web nvidia also worked with sega on providing the gpu for the dreamcast. maybe this should be incorporated into this article?

Here's an archived article on the NV2 and Sega involvement. https://web.archive.org/web/20060919170554/https://firingsquad.com/features/nv2/default.asp

Djmips (talk) 20:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Sega claims the Dreamcast launched in Japan November 11, 1998 instead of November 27.
Acorrding to there official website Sega claims that it launched November 11, 1998 instraf of November 27.

Press the link below.

So should we change Japan's release date?

Dreamcast | SEGA NakhlaMan (talk) 13:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

 * It says November 27. I think you're misreading it. oknazevad (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Very odd when I was accesing the website on my phone using the Chrome app it says Novemeber 27 but on the browser it I am using Edge and when it translates it says
 * Release Date:
 * Nov 1998, 11
 * Could it be a problem with translator on the browser? Maybe I should stop using Microsoft Translator and download a better extension for translating.
 * NakhlaMan (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's a browser translator issue. It's misinterpreting the 11 for November as the day, instead of the 27. oknazevad (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright then from now I will be using the Google Translate extension then. Damn Microsoft fix ur translator. NakhlaMan (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Accuracy of Dreamcast Logo?
The article uses a logo sourced from a dead link to a Fandom logo wiki. The color also differs distinctly from the one on the Sega website. First and foremost, the current logo should have a better source to prevent citogenesis.

In fact, Wikipedia has three versions of the SEGA logo uploaded:. These all appear to be reproductions of the logo from the Dreamcast boot screen, and while there is evidence for the PAL blue logo, neither the red or light orange seem to be accurate. It looks like the logo should be a reddish orange color, as appears on the Sega website linked above and the boot screen of the console. Unless a primary source for these red and light orange logos can be found, I am concerned that citogenesis has already taken place as these seem to be the commonly used Dreamcast logos online. DMonitor (talk) 06:11, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Agreed that a better source for the image should be used, at the very minimum. On the color differences, perhaps images in old gaming magazines can help us out here?  Red Phoenix  talk  13:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is probably worth pinging @Evan-Amos about, as I know he's said that capturing some colors on consoles has been difficult at times. He's photographed this stuff, so while that may not work for us sourcing wise, can perhaps give us a first hand opinion on what we should be looking for. -- ferret (talk) 14:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen (and I own Dreamcast) there is no difference between the shade of red-orange used for the logo in Japan and North America, while the European logo was blue because of a trademark conflict (a German company already had a similar looking trademark with an orange swirl). As for that red-orange, neither the supposed North American or the Japanese logos on commons are 100% accurate to the shade. The supposed darker shade of the North American version appears to be just misinterpreting the difference between different monitors (as someone already noted on the file's talk page). The logo on the unit itself and packaging is notably lighter and more orangish. Meanwhile the supposed Japanese logo is clearly too pale. The fact that both files are sourced to the Logopedia Fandom site (not a reliable source as user-generated) means the citogenesis issue is a concern. oknazevad (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dreamcast


text:
Wittig

Wittig is a surname, and may refer to:

 * Burghardt Wittig (born 1947), German biochemist
 * Curt Wittig, American chemist
 * David Wittig (born 1955), American executive
 * Edward Wittig (1879–1941), Polish sculptor
 * Ferdinand Wittig (1851-1909), American politician
 * Georg Wittig (1897–1987), German chemist
 * Iris Wittig (1928-1978), German military pilot
 * Johnnie Wittig (1914–1999), former Major League pitcher
 * Martin C. Wittig (born 1964), German CEO
 * Michael Wittig (born 1976), American musician
 * Monique Wittig (1935–2003), French author and feminist theorist
 * Peter Wittig (born 1954), German diplomat
 * Rüdiger Wittig (born 1946), German professor of geobotany and ecology
 * Sigmar Wittig (born 1940), German Chair of the European Space Agency
 * Susan Wittig Albert (born 1940), American mystery writer

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wittig


text:
Voiceless velar plosive

The voiceless velar plosive or stop is a type of consonantal sound used in almost all spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨k⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is.

The sound is a very common sound cross-linguistically. Most languages have at least a plain, and some distinguish more than one variety. Most Indo-Aryan languages, such as Hindi and Bengali, have a two-way contrast between aspirated and plain. Only a few languages lack a voiceless velar plosive, e.g. Tahitian and Mongolian.

Some languages have the voiceless pre-velar plosive, which is articulated slightly more front compared with the place of articulation of the prototypical velar plosive, though not as front as the prototypical palatal plosive.

Conversely, some languages have the voiceless post-velar plosive, which is articulated slightly behind the place of articulation of the prototypical velar plosive, though not as back as the prototypical uvular plosive.

Features

Features of the voiceless velar stop:

title: Voiceless velar plosive


text:
Georg Wittig

Georg Wittig (16 June 1897 – 26 August 1987) was a German chemist who reported a method for synthesis of alkenes from aldehydes and ketones using compounds called phosphonium ylides in the Wittig reaction. He shared the Nobel Prize in Chemistry with Herbert C. Brown in 1979.

Biography
Wittig was born in Berlin, Germany and shortly after his birth moved with his family to Kassel, where his father was professor at the applied arts high school. He attended school in Kassel and started studying chemistry at the University of Tübingen 1916. He was drafted and became a lieutenant in the cavalry of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel). After being an Allied prisoner of war from 1918 until 1919, Wittig found it hard to restart his chemistry studies owing to overcrowding at the universities. By a direct plea to Karl von Auwers, who was professor for organic chemistry at the University of Marburg at the time, he was able to resume university study and after 3 years was awarded the Ph.D. in organic chemistry.

Karl von Auwers was able to convince him to start an academic career, leading to his habilitation in 1926. He became a close friend of Karl Ziegler, who was also doing his habilitation with Auwers during that time. The successor of Karl von Auwers, Hans Meerwein, accepted Wittig as lecturer, partly because he was impressed by the new 400-page book on stereochemistry that Wittig had written. In 1931 Wittig married Waltraud Ernst, a colleague from the Auwers working group. The invitation of Karl Fries brought him as professor to the TU Braunschweig in 1932. The time in Braunschweig became more and more problematic as the Nazis tried to get rid of Karl Fries and Wittig showed solidarity with him. After the forced retirement of Fries, in 1937 Hermann Staudinger offered Wittig a position at the University of Freiburg, partly because he knew Wittig from his book on stereochemistry in which he supported Staudinger's highly criticized theory of macromolecules. The foundations of carbanion chemistry were laid during Wittig's time in Freiburg.

In 1944 he succeeded the head of the organic chemistry department Wilhelm Schlenk at the University of Tübingen. Most of his scientific work, including the development of the Wittig reaction, was performed during this time in Tübingen. The 1956 appointment of the nearly sixty-year-old Wittig as head of the organic chemistry department at the University of Heidelberg as successor of Karl Freudenberg was exceptional even at that time. The newly built department and the close connection to the BASF convinced Wittig to take this opportunity. He worked at the University of Heidelberg even after his retirement in 1967 and published papers until 1980. Most of his awards were presented during this time at Heidelberg, such as the honorary doctorate of the Sorbonne in 1956 and the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1979.

Work
Wittig's contributions also include the preparation of phenyllithium and the discovery of the 1,2-Wittig rearrangement and the 2,3-Wittig rearrangement.

Wittig was well known in the chemistry community for being a consummate experimenter and observer of chemical transformations, while caring very little for the theoretical and mechanistic underpinnings of the work he produced.

Georg also has his name on a literature work titled on a compound labelled Colopidalol.

title: Georg Wittig


text:
Talk:Sam Vimes

Headline text
Removed from the article:

 * (ironically, [Carrot is] also a descendant of the king who Vimes' ancestor did in)

No, he isn't. He's a descendant of an earlier (and, so it is said, much nobler) dynasty that disappeared from the throne of Ankh centuries before the days of Lorenzo the Kind. (See Ankh-Morpork.) --Paul A 02:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

While that's certainly more narratively satisfying, there's no actual evidence either way (the dates on D'Eath's pictures don't help, because we don't know what dating system he's using). In the absence of such I agree, leave it out. Daibhid C 14.50 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sam Vimes' Son
In the article the writer says "He and Sybil have one small son, Sam Jr, born 25th May 1990."

I am not sure this is accurate since the Discworld uses its own calendar. Also, it is the wrong date in our calendar since the book Night Watch, where we read Sam's son is born, was published 2002.
 * The date sounds right. I've edited to indicate it goes by University Calendar. -takagawa-kun 02:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Book list?
How about a list of books Vimes is in? Some of the other Pratchett characters have these on their Wiki entries.
 * Done. ::Didactylos 19:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Random statements/speculation
"On the other hand, certain details and events point to it having been Vimes all along; also, Lu-Tze is not above manipulating people and possibly told a lie.)" - this mish-mash has evolved from nothing, and certainly has no place here. Going, going... ::Didactylos 19:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"Sam Vimes rage has become a legend in Ankh-Morpork even when he has never been truly angry, the single thing that keeps everyone in the city in line is the fact that "Vimes will go spare"." - this is the view of Sergeant Colon, and is not universal. The whole "rage" section could benefit from a rewrite. ::Didactylos 19:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I wasn't sure about that line; I'd always thought it was just Nobby Nobbs, who turnd down a chance to become King of Ankh-Morpork because "Vimes'll go spare!" I don't remember any other character using that phrase. I'll take it down, then if someone comes along and disagrees they can say why. Serendipodous 18:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I think Colon thinks that in Fifth Elephant (he believes this will be in reaction to Vimes coming home and see what's happened with Colon at the helm), and Gaspode makes a comment like that in The Truth (in reference to Vimes's reaction to William de Worde dropping a stinkbomb on Angua). So, people who at least somewhat know Vimes should know of his anger, if they don't actually use the exact phrase, but I wouldn't say it's legendary exactly. --Yar Kramer 02:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, in the Fifth Elephant, when asked by his clerk Drumknott why did he allow Colon´s blunders and the Watchmen´s strike, the Patrician stated that things would never get too much out of hand since the Watchmen know that Vimes would be back in a few weeks, and they fear Vimes anger too much... (something like that)

 * Just looked up the above mentioned quote. What Lord vetinari says (and I'm paraphrasing) is that the whole city is lying low, and even those allowed to steal [Thieves' Guild] aren't. This is because they know that when Vimes comes back he will be 'unhappy'. (The actual word used.) And when Vimes is 'unhappy' everyone knows about it. (On a different note is 'Lady Sybill Free Hospital' really with a double l?) 87.4.144.145 15:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fictional Alcoholics category
I'm not entirely sure this is accurate, since he only drinks in the first two books he's in (in the rest, he has his cigars). --Yar Kramer 21:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The "Alcoholism" wikipedia article defines alcoholism thusly:

 * Alcoholism is a dependency on alcoholic beverages characterized by craving (a strong need to drink), loss of control (being  unable to stop drinking despite a desire to do so), physical dependence, tolerance (increasing difficulty in becoming drunk),  and withdrawal symptoms. It can also be described as an addiction to alcoholic beverages that results in a consumption of  alcohol in circumstances that damage one's ability to pursue one's other desires.

 * As I understand it, one can be an abstaining alcoholic, i.e. addicted to alcohol but actively refraining from drinking (for example, the members of Alcoholics Anonymous identify themselves as alcoholics, yet do not drink). In Guards! Guards! and Men at Arms, it's made pretty clear that Vimes drinks to excess, and craves alcohol. In subsequent books, he constantly longs for alcohol, and in The Fifth Elephant, he more or less confesses to having been an alcoholic. He may no longer be a practicing alcoholic, but I think the suggestion is that he does not drink because he is an alcoholic, and "one drink is too many." It's certainly arguable either way, though. McPhail 13:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

 * All right. Consider the point condeded. Since, y'know, I didn't know much more than stereotypes to begin with. ;) --Yar Kramer 20:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

What did Ma Vimes pay for
At school he was once blackboard monitor for a whole term (An honour his mother paid for, unknown to him at the time).

I have always read the part about Vimes wondering where his mother got the money from as, not knowing how she afforded sending him to school, not paying for him to be Blackboard monitor, is there another reference I am miss-remembering? Gonzo 09:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, it was the school tuition she paid for, not the role as BBMON. Katzenjammer 21:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

 * school tuition is an honour? I think you are misreading that situation WookMuff 04:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Picture
An article of this length is fairly conspicuously missing a picture. A cropping of this would be my first thought, though I expect it's problematic legally.

 * Legality aside, I remember reading somewhere (Probably this article) that Prachett has said he prefers Vime's look in "Where's My Cow?" to the one in that picture.--Agent Aquamarine 23:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Best if you come up with a verifiable source on that first, though. —Yar Kramer 04:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * From the "Where's My Cow?" article:

"In this book Vimes bears a passing resemblance to actor Pete Postlethwaite. Pratchett has before commented that this is who he has always perceived Vimes to look like, rather than the Paul Kidby 'Clint Eastwood' representation."

Tada!--Agent Aquamarine 06:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Do we need someone to scan the image of Sam Vimes from the Where's My Cow book, then? --D'Argent 18:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"Old Stone Face" Reference
Judge Dredd has the nickname "Old Stoneyface", whereas Sam Vimes, and his ancestor "Suffer-Not-Injustice Vimes", have the nickname "Old Stoneface". I think it's possible that Judge Dredd is an inspiration for Vimes and this isn't a coincidence, so Vimes' nickname references Dredd's. Is this worth putting in the Wiki article? --D'Argent 18:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Very unlikely that had anything to do with it. Old Stoneface was the nickname given to Oliver Cromwell. Given the author's British and given the Vime's family history of regicide it's much more likely a Cromwell reference then Judge Dredd.--Lepeu1999 15:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, so are you saying judge dredd isn't british? and yes, I know he lives in megacity one which is US, but he is a british creation from a british magazine. WookMuff 03:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, I say no such thing. Dredd is a British comic, but I've never seen anything from the author (Pratchett) listing Dredd as an influence to Vimes while I HAVE seen a statement linking Cromwell.  What we believe is immaterial, WP:verifiability--Lepeu1999 23:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Suffer-Not-Injustice is pure Oliver Cromwell. Vimes, however, is closer to your detective character in Film Noir, specifically Dirty Harry. I think the L-Space annotations point out how many detective-movie cliches appear in Guards! Guards! (The flickering glowing-lettered sign, the rain, shooting the lock off a door, and the "Do you feel lucky" speech as adapted for use with a dragon...). Also, I agree with Vimes. "Family history of regicide" makes it sound like it was a habit. Lorenzo *was* only one king...
 * If you read the later Vimes books regicide is, if not a habit, then far from out of the question with Vimes. He's about as anti-monarch as you can get.  Anyway my comment was in answer to the first - that Old Stoneface was very unlikely to be a judge dredd reference.  You should sign your posts.--Lepeu1999 22:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Dirty Harry was also an inspiration for Judge Dredd, of course. I don't know if this inspired Pratchett to slip in a Dredd reference or not; I think the Cromwell ref is deliberate, but he's not beyond making two references at once... Daibhid C 16:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Character
While I applaud the work done by all of you on this article - it's really very well done - I hate to say it but this entire section (Character) smacks of WP:Original_Research. WP policy is that every statement must be attributable to a reputable source - i.e. our own analysis and interpretation has no place here. This section needs to be footnoted with sources for the material or it needs to go.--Lepeu1999 17:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a book character, for Pete's sake. All the information in that section comes from the books. There is no way to use footnotes for such information. Your reasoning is wrong, as books are a primary source for fictional character information and thus enough for WP:V. If you claim OR in the article, you have to specify, which part you think is interpretation or analysis according to WP:OR. I for my part cannot find any such problems, all the character info is from the books and thus does not need footnotes. --SoWhy Talk 12:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I KNOW that. The section's been rather extensivly re-written by the origional author to reflect that since the origional note.  In fact, I'm removing it.  I would have early but I've been away from Wikipedia.  Just because something is about a book character DOESN'T remove the obligation to source a character analysis.  Doing one on your own IS OR per WP policy.  If you're citing the character's behavior, you need to cite which book it comes from including page number.  Just because the info is in a book doesn't remove the need to footnote.  Wikipedia allows for the citation of text sources as WELL as online sources.--Lepeu1999 00:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The section needs to be deleted, or sources need to be found and cited. Deletion seems far more likely.  Geoff B 18:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

To jump in here, even though the text makes reference to the book the examples were taken from, they still need to be footnoted - at least with the book information if not the specific page numbers.--Lepeu1999 19:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree: the article is well written and manages to convey a good description of Vimes for both fans of TP and complete strangers. However, footnotes are still necessary, even if they refer to a book.The Nouv (talk) 14:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

removal of 'pov' edits
Some of the things removed are actually direct quotes or paraphrasing from the books don't want to just revert but labelling it all as 'not a neutral point of view' is inaccurate if its Vimes POV --Nate 09:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Vimes' POV is not NPOV, so defining it as such is accurate. However, my assertion of POV is nothing to do with that, and has more to do with the often unencyclopaedic language used, the attempts at character interpretation, and so on.  It offends me as a Wikipedian and as an avid reader of Pratchett.  Geoff B 10:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of the edits are good which is the only thing stopping me doing a complete revert! Please skip the straw men, you have said that various description of Vimes attitudes are POV, but they are Facts, NPOV is about the style of the article not about how Pratchett portrays & describes his character, also you are removing wiki links when you add refs & not, at the very least, including the ISBN, you are making the article worse. --Nate 13:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm making the article worse? What a fucking joke.  And as for straw men, look at yourself.  I pointed out what I was talking about when I said POV, not the various descriptions of Vimes' attitudes as you state.  The ISBN could easily be included, but hey, no-one else is bothering, or has bothered, to add references, so I'll have to do it.  Uncited info can be removed at any time, and that's what I'll do.  Geoff B 14:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said Vimes POV was neutral (the straw man) but, it is inherently relevant to include it in the article if acknowledged as his pov. Replacing a wiki link to the relevant book & removing info about the character ismaking the article worse in my opinion.
 * Please do not resort to swearing I am quiet angry right now but don't see the need for profanity. --Nate 15:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

All of the "citation needed" tags
I'm not too clear on the rules for citations, so I'll look into them before making any changes, but this page is full of the tags. I don't know if there've been many third-party, notable works on Discworld characters, so I'm guessing that the only sources available are the books themselves.

Just how much needs to be cited, though? This block, for example: "Vimes is a very conflicted character.[citation needed] An incorruptible idealist with deep beliefs in justice and an abiding love of his city, he is also a committed cynic whose knowledge of human nature constantly reminds him how far off those ideals are.[citation needed] A member of the upper classes, he still has an innate dislike of hereditary wealth and a horror of social inequality.[citation needed]" Some of it can really only be seen through multiple interactions, but is undeniably there. I guess there's a fine line to walk between what's written and how we interpret it - with all interpretations being considered original research - but looking at all the tags, it's tempting just to stick the list of books in the references section and sweep the tags away. Raistlin11325 03:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Lorenzo the Kind...pedophile or Hitler?
I take issue with this line, ''Lorenzo the Kind, the last king of the city, a sadistic torturer described as very fond of children. ''. The article links the 'very fond of children' part to the article on pedophilia. My personal reading of this line was an allusion to Adolf Hitlers well known fondness of children contrasting with his reputation as the most evil man who ever lived. Does anyone agree? Can we have a consensus? -Doktor Waterhouse 13:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt the Hitler allusion, because Lorenzo was believed to be a tyrant against everyone until Suffer-No-Injustice Vimes and his Ironmen discovered his "fondness" of children after killing him. I think the pedophilia allusion is correct. --SoWhy Talk 15:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * From comments in the books (I believe Vimes in the art gallery) the 'fondness' was viewed as a bad thing. --Nate1481(t/c) 15:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * From Feet of Clay (HarperTorch paperback, p. 39):

"Because my ancestor killed a-" He (i.e. Vimes) paused. "No, it wasn't even an execution," he said. "You execute a human being. You slaughter an animal." "He was the king," said Dragon mildly. "Oh, yes. And it turned out that down in the dungeons he had machines for-" "Commander," said the vampire, holding up his hands, "I feel you don't understand me. Whatever else he was, he was the king." (...) "Well someone had to do it. Some monsters should not walk under the living sky."
 * I think it is not very clear from these lines but pedophile might be the most likely choice. I posted the question to a.f.pratchett here to see if we get better answers there. --SoWhy Talk 13:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The allusion to Hilter makes better sense especially when one considers the context of the character. Lorenzo can be placed in a character class that we would describe variously as tyrant/dictator. The best known member of this class would be Hitler. Hitler's love of children has been noted as an ironic element of his character. Pratchett, as a satirist, often draws on real world examples to illustrate the ironies of his characters class. The 'evil man with a soft spot' seems to fit Pratchett's style. Doktor Waterhouse 12:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So would the use of sarcasm and irony. Especially because the "fondness" or other describing elements of his character are usually set in italics or "". Like in the above quote, Whatever else he was to see as a description that he was a tyrant is kind of far-fetched because a bunch of kings before him were tyrants, too.

'He, er, doesn't appear much in the history books,' said Vimes. 'Sometimes there has to be a civil war, and sometimes, afterwards, it's best to pretend something didn't happen. Sometimes people have to do a job, and then they have to be forgotten. He wielded the axe, you know. No-one else'd do it. It was a king's neck, after all. Kings are,' he spat the word, 'special. Even after they'd seen the. . . private rooms, and cleaned up the. . . bits. Even then. No-one'd clean up the world. But he took the axe and cursed them all and did it.' 'What king was it?' said Carrot. 'Lorenzo the Kind,' said Vimes, distantly. 'I've seen his picture in the palace museum,' said Carrot. A fat old man. Surrounded by lots of children.' 'Oh yes,' said Vimes, carefully. 'He was very fond of children.'
 * From "Men at Arms". I would think the description does not fit Hitler, and it says that Vimes says the last part "carefully"... --SoWhy Talk 14:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the pedophile interpretation but the Hitler one is an interesting take.--Lepeu1999 15:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the quote I was thinking of, definite undertones implying paedophilia. It's also worth considering the two are not mutauly exclusive, this is fictions elements could come from both. --Nate1481(t/c) 15:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I kinda get a whole psychotic version of Santa - A fat man, who happened to be kind to kids, with a tendancy for casual torture.Where is WikiResearch? (talk) 13:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Vetinari's Successor?
Please remind me, at the end of Thud does Vetinari hint at grooming Vimes as his successor? If so, should this be mentioned in either or both their entries?--Tricksterson (talk) 18:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I personally don't remember anything even remotely like that (which could be just my atrocious observation skills again), but if it's ambiguous, we probably shouldn't invoke the wrath of original research and speculation. —Yar Kramer (talk) 01:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I just read Thud! again a few weeks ago and I cannot recall such a reference. Maybe you should tell us, which reference you mean (page, context, etc). As Yar Kramer points out, if it's not clear, it would probably be WP:OR anyway. As a Pratchett fan, I don't think Vetinari would hint such things. He knows full well that Vimes could never run a city like A-M, because he lacks the skills to not kill bastards when it's inappropriate ;-) --SoWhy Talk 19:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly my imagination, will have to reread.--Tricksterson (talk) 14:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Background - Vime's Age
The last paragraph of the background is absolute garbage writing. It reads like a couple of fanboys arguing over a Star Trek episode. I would suggest dropping it altogether, or replacing it with "The chronology given in Night Watch places Vimes' age at 46 for this novel." and dropping the rationalization altogether. Wcudmore (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not so much garbage writing as confusing ideas, I'd say. It is a bit on the quibbly side - the problem is that someone misread the sentence about Sally. It reads "She could have passed for sixteen; it was certainly hard to believe that she was not a lot younger than Vimes." The writer of the paragraph read it as "...that she WAS not-a-lot-younger than Vimes", where it was meant to be read as "...that she was NOT a-lot-younger than Vimes". Get it? I'm going to go edit it. --72.205.27.2 (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent developments
It is stated that Terry Pratchett said that "Morpork books are becoming almost impossible to write without making them watch books"(parap). This really needs citation as the last four main books: Going Postal, Thud, Making Money & Unseen Academicals have all been set in Ankh-Morpork with the exception being the Watch book - Thud, which was partially set outside. If true, he's done very well (although this does not surprise).Where is WikiResearch? (talk) 13:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Unnecessary internal references?
Many words in the intro are internal links, more than I think is strictly necessary (what are these things even called?). The article about 'Terrier' describes a kind of dog, not its use in English language as 'tool'. Do we need a separate link that discusses the exact definition of what a wife is? More to the points: most of those links are thrown about, even though they do not bear relevance to the article (for example, 'wife' may be linked internally in an article about marriage, but not when the word is used in its normal sense). They are really just used as if they link to a dictionary, which wikipedia is not. Anyone agrees?92.109.161.68 (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sam Vimes


text:
Jon Peter Lewis

Jon Peter Lewis (born November 7, 1979) is an American singer and songwriter, and was one of the finalists on the third season of the reality/talent-search television series American Idol. He was frequently referred to by the judges and Ryan Seacrest as JPL.

Lewis later formed a duo titled Midas Whale with a friend Ryan Hayes and appeared on the fourth season of The Voice.

Biography
Lewis lived in various cities across the United States before leaving home at the age of 18. He graduated from Central High School in Cheyenne, Wyoming in 1998. He starred in the lead role of Thorin Oakenshield in a local children theater's production of The Hobbit in the summer of 1997. Lewis performed in other numerous theatrical productions and was a band member of various rock and roll bands throughout his high school and college years. Lewis is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and attended Brigham Young University–Idaho for a time hoping to pursue a career in medicine.

American Idol
At the age of 23, Lewis cashed in his college loans to audition for the third season of American Idol in Honolulu, Hawaii, where he sang '"Crazy Love" by Van Morrison. Praised by Simon Cowell for his "very, very good voice," Lewis went on to display an uninhibited stage personality that won the hearts of millions of Idol fans. Simon Cowell later hailed Jon as "the dark horse to win the competition," and Rolling Stone magazine pegged Jon as a "pick to win," while Elton John praised Lewis's voice for his "excellent pitch and phrasing."

Affectionately known as 'JPL' by his fans, Lewis was a member of the third group of semi-finalists and performed the Elton John song "Tiny Dancer". After performing "A Little Less Conversation" in the wild card round, Lewis was put through as a finalist by audience vote, receiving 22% of all votes cast.

On April 15, 2004, Lewis was voted off in eighth place after a flashy rendition of "Jailhouse Rock" during movie songs week. During the competition, he had displayed a three-octave vocal range and developed a strong fan following. As part of the Top 10, Lewis participated in the 50-city American Idols Live tour in the summer of 2004.

Post-Idol
Rather than accepting business offers to use his Idol fame to release a quick pop album, Lewis decided to work on his own musical style and create original music. From late 2004 to 2006, Lewis spent the majority of his time composing original music working closely with music producer Alex Gibson of Henson Recording Studios, among other notable entities in Hollywood. "Turn to Grey" was among the first songs that he wrote; he composed it while on tour with the Idol finalists. Jon recorded part of the song as a homage to Jennifer Hudson after she told him that she loved singing the song around her house.

In 2005, he collaborated with Canadian songwriter/actor James Collins to write and record "It's Christmas", which was released by EMI/Universal in Canada as part of the Now Christmas 2 album. The song went to number thirteen on the Canadian radio charts in two weeks. In addition, a second original holiday song "California Christmas" was recorded by Lewis and released in 2006 for the album Breaking for the Holidays by Breaking Records. The upbeat holiday song was called a "Christmas classic" by Chuck Taylor of Billboard magazine.

In September 2006, Lewis released his second single containing the songs "If I Go Away" and "Man Like Me" through his independent label, Cockaroo Entertainment. His limited release debut album, Stories from Hollywood, was released on his 27th birthday, November 7, 2006, making Jon the first Idol finalist to independently release an album of original songs. The album is a collection of energetic rock and roll and intimate acoustic tracks.

Lewis' second full-length album, Break the Silence, debuted July 22, 2008. The album was released through Cockaroo Entertainment in conjunction with Adrenaline Music Group and Lieber Management. Chris Garcia, who has worked with Santana and Michelle Branch, Dido and Jewel, produced the album under the guidance of executive producer Don Grierson, a former head of A&R for Capitol and Epic Records. Lewis wrote or co-wrote several tracks for the album, featuring musicians such as guitarist Nick Lashley, drummer Kenny Aronoff and Blake Mills. The CD has received critical praise including a "Critic's Choice" review from Billboard magazine. It was called "one of the best pop/rock CD's of the year" by Monica Rizzo of People magazine and "a much stronger album" by Ken Barnes of USA Today. The title track single hit the top 30 charts on Hot AC radio and in November 2008 was one of only fifty songs pre-programmed into all of the new iPhones on display at Apple Stores and AT&T stores across the country. Lewis went on to release a self-titled EP in February 2010.

In 2009, Lewis launched an internet show titled American Nobody. The program takes an inside look at the music business as well as a tongue-in-cheek view of pop culture. The show received early critical praise. American Idol journalist and biographer Richard Rushfield described the show as, "a hilarious romp through Idol land built around the misadventures of a singer who, seven years after Idol, is still searching to find his place in the industry." American Nobody was added to TV Guide's "Hot Web List" and the Los Angeles Times called it "the most brilliant and biting satire of Idoldom ever written."

Jon Peter Lewis met Ryan Hayes in Rexburg, Idaho, and became friends. In 2010, Lewis produced and starred in a rock opera, Deep Love: A Ghostly Folk Opera. The production, co-written by Ryan Hayes and Garrett Sherwood, debuted in Idaho in October 2010 and garnered support, which positioned the show into a multi-city theatrical event. Deep Love was chosen as one of ten shows produced for the New York Musical Theatre Festival in July 2015.

In 2015, Lewis released an EP titled Roughcuts. According to Lewis, the recordings are in their "roughest and raw forms" and "they are like first drafts from my brain and may end up as Midas Whale songs."

Lewis has been a contributor to MTV, Entertainment Weekly, Rolling Stone magazine, Los Angeles Times, and AOL Entertainment.

Midas Whale
In 2013, Jon Peter Lewis teamed up Ryan Hayes to become Midas Whale (a pun on "might as well"). According to Lewis, he asked Ryan if he wanted to form a band and be on TV and Ryan replied "Might as well", which then became the name of the duo.

The Voice
In 2013, Jon Peter Lewis and Ryan Hayes auditioned for the fourth season of The Voice as duo Midas Whale. In their audition, which broadcast on March 26, 2013, they performed the Johnny Cash song "Folsom Prison Blues". All four judges pressed their "I Want You" button and turned their chairs. Lewis and Hayes chose to join Adam Levine's team. They were eliminated in the knockout rounds.

Post-The Voice
As Midas Whale, Jon Peter Lewis released their first full-length album titled Sugar House on February 11, 2014. The album was produced by Stuart Maxfield and funded by fans via Kickstarter where they raised over $30,000.

EPs

 * 2010: Jon Peter Lewis (EP)
 * 2015: roughcuts (EP)

Singles

 * 2004: "Turn to Grey" download single. Blues-funk.
 * 2005: "Stories from Hollywood" download single. Alternative rock.
 * 2005: "It's Christmas" single. Peaked at number thirteen on Canada's Top 50 Pop Adult BDS chart
 * 2006: "If I Go Away / Man Like Me" double-sided single. Alternative rock and pop. (Cockaroo Entertainment)
 * 2010: "Crazy Love"
 * 2014: "Howling at the Moon" (as Midas Whale)

'''Appearances in
 * 2004: "My Girl" in American Idol Season 3: Greatest Soul Classics".
 * 2004: "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" in Season 3's Finalists' ensemble collective. Trackj also on American Idol Season 3: Greatest Soul Classics
 * 2005: "It's Christmas", a track on Now Christmas 2 compilation album. It went up to No. 13 on Canadian radio charts. Album released in Canada. (EMI)
 * 2006: "California Christmas", a track on Breaking for the Holidays" compilation album. (Breaking Records)

title: Jon Peter Lewis


text:
Herbert Samuel, 1st Viscount Samuel

Herbert Louis Samuel, 1st Viscount Samuel, (6 November 1870 – 5 February 1963) was a British Liberal politician who was the party leader from 1931 to 1935.

He was the first nominally-practising Jew to serve as a Cabinet minister and to become the leader of a major British political party. Samuel had promoted Zionism within the British Cabinet, beginning with his 1915 memorandum entitled The Future of Palestine. In 1920 he was appointed as the first High Commissioner for Palestine, in charge of the administration of the territory.

Samuel was the last member of the Liberal Party to hold one of the four Great Offices of State (as Home Secretary from 1931 to 1932 in the National Government of Ramsay MacDonald). One of the adherents of "New Liberalism", Samuel helped to draft and present social reform legislation while he was serving as a Liberal cabinet member. Samuel led the party in both the 1931 general election and the 1935 general election, during which period the party's number of seats in parliament fell from 59 to 21.

Early life
Herbert Samuel was born at Claremont No. 11 Belvidere Road, Toxteth, Liverpool, Lancashire, in 1870. The building now houses part of the Belvedere Academy. Around 1775, his great-grandfather, Menachem Samuel, had emigrated from Kempen in Posen (now Kępno), not far from the city of Posen (now Poznan), to Britain and his grandfather, Louis Samuel (1794-1859), was born in London. He was the son of Clara (Yates) and Edwin Louis Samuel (1825–1877). His uncle was born Montagu Samuel, but became better known as Samuel Montagu, founder of the eponymous bank. He was also known by a Hebrew name, Eliezer ben Pinchas Shmuel. His eldest brother, Sir Stuart Samuel, was also a successful Liberal politician; his only sister, Mabel (1862–1938) married the influential art-critic Marion Spielmann, from the Spielmann dynasty of bankers and art-connoisseurs.

He was educated at University College School in Hampstead, London and Balliol College, Oxford, but at home he had a Jewish upbringing. However, in 1892, while at Oxford he renounced all religious belief, writing to his mother to inform her. Samuel worked through the influence of Charles Darwin and the book On Compromise by senior Liberal politician John Morley. He remained a member of the Jewish community, however, to please his wife, and observed the Sabbath and Jewish food laws at home "for hygienic reasons".

Early political career
Samuel unsuccessfully fought two general elections before being elected a Member of Parliament at the November 1902 Cleveland by-election, as a member of the Liberal Party. He was appointed to the Cabinet in 1909 by Prime Minister H. H. Asquith, first as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and then as Postmaster General, President of the Local Government Board and eventually Home Secretary.

He put forward the idea of establishing a British protectorate over Palestine in 1915, and his ideas influenced the Balfour Declaration. As Home Secretary, Samuel faced a shortage of manpower needed to fight in World War I, and he initiated legislation to offer thousands of Russian refugees (many of them young Jews) a choice between conscription into the British Army or returning to Russia for military service.

In December 1916, Asquith was replaced as Prime Minister by Lloyd George. Lloyd George asked Samuel to continue as Home Secretary, but Samuel chose to resign instead. He attempted to strike a balance between giving support to the new government while remaining loyal to Asquith. At the end of the war he sought election at the general election of 1918 as a Liberal in support of the Coalition government. However, the government's endorsement was given to his Unionist opponent, and he was defeated.

Women's rights
Initially he had not been a supporter of women's suffrage but then changed his position. In 1917, a Speaker's Conference was charged with looking into giving women the vote but did not have, in its terms of reference, consideration to women standing as candidates for Parliament. However, Samuel moved a separate motion on 23 October 1918 to allow women to be eligible as Members of Parliament. The vote was passed by 274 to 25, and the government rushed through a bill to make it law in time for the 1918 election.

Background
One month after Britain's declaration of war on the Ottoman Empire in November 1914, Samuel met Chaim Weizmann, who was to become the President of the World Zionist Organization and later the first President of Israel. According to Weizmann's memoirs, Samuel was already an avid believer in Zionism and believed that Weizmann's demands were too modest. Samuel did not want to enter into a detailed discussion of his plans but mentioned that "the Jews would have to build railways, harbours, a university, a network of schools, etc", as well as potentially a Temple in "modernised form".

In January 1915, Samuel circulated a memorandum, The Future of Palestine, to his cabinet colleagues, suggesting that Britain should conquer Palestine in order to protect the Suez Canal against foreign powers, and for Palestine to become a home for the Jewish people. The memorandum stated, "I am assured that the solution of the problem of Palestine which would be much the most welcome to the leaders and supporters of the Zionist movement throughout the world would be the annexation of the country to the British Empire". In March 1915, Samuel replaced the January 1915 draft version with the final version of his memorandum, toned down from the earlier draft, explicitly ruling out any idea of immediately establishing a Jewish state and emphasizing that non-Jews must receive equal treatment under any scheme.

Appointment as High Commissioner
In 1917, Britain occupied Palestine (then part of the Ottoman Empire) during the course of the First World War. Samuel lost his seat in the election of 1918 and became a candidate to represent British interests in the territory.

He was appointed to the position of High Commissioner in 1920, before the Council of the League of Nations approved a British mandate for Palestine. Nonetheless, the military government withdrew to Cairo in preparation for the expected British Mandate, which was finally granted two years later by the League of Nations. He served as High Commissioner until 1925. Samuel was the first Jew to govern the historic Land of Israel in 2000 years.

He recognised Hebrew as one of the three official languages of the territory. He was appointed Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire (GBE) on 11 June 1920.

Samuel's appointment to High Commissioner for Palestine was controversial. While the Zionists welcomed the appointment of a Zionist Jew to the post, the military government, headed by Edmund Allenby and Louis Bols, called Samuel's appointment "highly dangerous".

Technically, Allenby noted, the appointment was illegal, as a civil administration that would compel the inhabitants of an occupied country to express their allegiance to it before a formal peace treaty (with the Ottoman Empire) was signed violated both military law and the Hague Convention. Bols said the news was received with "consternation, despondency and exasperation" by the Muslims and Christians. Allenby said that the Arabs would see it "as handing country over at once to a permanent Zionist Administration" and predicted massive violence.

Lord Curzon read the last message to Samuel and asked him to reconsider accepting the post. Samuel took advice from a delegation in London representing the Zionists, who told him that the "alarmist" reports were not justified. The Muslim-Christian Association had sent a telegram to Bols: "Sir Herbert Samuel regarded as a Zionist leader, and his appointment as first step in formation of Zionist national home in the midst of Arab people contrary to their wishes. Inhabitants cannot recognise him, and Muslim-Christian Society cannot accept responsibility for riots or other disturbances of peace." The wisdom of appointing Samuel was debated in the House of Lords a day before he arrived in Palestine. Lord Curzon said that no "disparaging" remarks had been made during the debate but that "very grave doubts have been expressed as to the wisdom of sending a Jewish Administrator to the country at this moment".

Questions in the House of Commons of the period also show much concern about the choice of Samuel: "what action has been taken to placate the Arab population... and thereby put an end to racial tension". Three months after his arrival, The Morning Post commented: "Sir Herbert Samuel's appointment as High Commissioner was regarded by everyone, except Jews, as a serious mistake."

Tenure
As High Commissioner, Samuel attempted to mediate between Zionist and Arab interests, acting to slow Jewish immigration and win the confidence of the Arab population. He hoped to gain Arab participation in mandate affairs and to guard their civil and economic rights, but refused them any authority that could be used to stop Jewish immigration and land purchase. According to Wasserstein his policy was "subtly designed to reconcile Arabs to the... pro-Zionist policy" of the British.

Islamic custom at the time was that the chief Islamic spiritual leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to be chosen by the temporal ruler, the Ottoman Sultan in Constantinople, from a group of clerics nominated by the indigenous clerics. After the British conquered Palestine, Samuel chose Haj Amin al Husseini, who later proved a thorn in the side of the British administration in Palestine. At the same time, he enjoyed the respect of the Jewish community, and he was honoured by being called to the Torah at the Hurva synagogue in the Old City of Jerusalem.

During Samuel's administration the Churchill White Paper was published. It supported Jewish immigration within the economic absorptive capacity of the country to accommodate them and defined the Jewish national homeland as: "not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride."

Samuel won the confidence of all sections of the population by his noted "impartiality". He struck a particularly strong relationship with Pinhas Rutenberg, granting him exclusive concessions to produce and distribute electricity in Palestine and Trans-Jordan, often strongly backing Rutenberg in his relations with the Colonial Office in London. Samuel government signed the Ghor-Mudawarra Land Agreement with the Baysan Valley Bedouin tribes, that earmarked for transfer 179,545 dunams of state land to the Bedouin.

Samuel's role in Palestine is still debated. According to Wasserstein: "He is remembered kindly neither by the majority of Zionist historians, who tend to regard him as one of the originators of the process whereby the Balfour Declaration in favour of Zionism was gradually diluted and ultimately betrayed by Great Britain, nor by Arab nationalists who regard him as a personification of the alliance between Zionism and British imperialism and as one of those responsible for the displacement of the Palestinian Arabs from their homeland. In fact, both are mistaken."

Samuel Commission
On his return to Britain in 1925, Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin asked Samuel to look into the problems of the mining industry. The Samuel Commission published its report in March 1926, recommending a reorganisation of the industry but rejecting the suggestion of nationalisation. The report also recommended the government subsidy to be withdrawn and the miners' wages reduced. The report was one of the leading factors that led to the 1926 General Strike.

Later political career
Samuel returned to the House of Commons following the 1929 general election. Two years later, he became deputy leader of the Liberal Party and acted as leader in the summer of 1931 when Lloyd George was ill. Under Samuel, the party served in the first National Government of Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald formed in August 1931, with Samuel himself serving as Home Secretary. However the government's willingness to consider the introduction of protectionist tariffs and call a general election to seek a mandate led to the Liberal Party fragmenting into three distinct groups. Sir John Simon had already led a breakaway group of MPs to form the Liberal National Party.

The Liberal leader, Lloyd George, led a small group of Independent Liberals, opposing the National Government. That left Samuel effectively as leader of the parliamentary party and in control of party headquarters. The government's moves to introduce tariffs caused further friction for the Liberals, and Samuel withdrew the party from the government in stages, first obtaining the suspension of cabinet collective responsibility on the matter to allow Liberal members of the government to oppose tariffs. In October 1932, the Liberal ministers resigned their ministerial posts but continued to support the National Government in parliament. Finally, in November 1933, Samuel and the bulk of the Liberal MPs crossed the floor of the House of Commons and opposed the government outright. He remained leader of the Liberal Party until he again lost his seat in 1935.

In 1937, he was granted the title Viscount Samuel; later that year, Samuel, despite his Jewish ancestry, aligned himself with Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's appeasement policy towards Adolf Hitler, urged that Germany be cleared of its 1914 war guilt and recommended the return of German colonies lost after the war. His biographer John Edward Bowle noted Samuel's recollection of his comments to Lord Halifax in a conversation shortly before the Anschluss in 1938:

"I said that I regarded Hitler as a man with a conscience — a conscience that sometimes led him to do things that were very bad; but he was not a man who would do what he knew to be a crime as Napoleon would have. The danger was that, being a mystic and impetuous, he might easily be swept away at some moment of crisis."

He declined a later offer by Chamberlain to return to government. In 1938, he supported the Kindertransport movement for refugee children from Europe with an appeal for homes for them.

Samuel later became the leader of the Liberal Party in the House of Lords (1944–1955). During the 1951 general election, on 15 October 1951, Samuel became the first British politician to deliver a party political broadcast on television. He had previously fronted a broadcast on television at the 1950 election, but this was merely a recording of a radio speech he had made earlier the same evening rather than a true party political broadcast.

Family
On 17 November 1897 Samuel married his first cousin Beatrice Miriam (1871–1959), daughter of Ellis Abraham Franklin, a banker. They had three sons and one daughter. His son, Edwin, served in the Jewish Legion.

Samuel was great-uncle to the scientist Rosalind Franklin, the co-discoverer of DNA.

Literary career
In his later years, he remained concerned over the future of humanity and of science, writing three books: Essays in Physics (1951), In Search of Reality (1957) and a collaborative work, A Threefold Cord: Philosophy, Science, Religion (1961). The three works tended to conflict with the beliefs of the scientific establishment, especially as his collaborator and friend in the last work was Herbert Dingle.

title: Herbert Samuel, 1st Viscount Samuel


text:
Adam de la Halle

Adam de la Halle (1245–50 – 1285–8/after 1306) was a French poet-composer trouvère. Among the few medieval composers to write both monophonic and polyphonic music, in this respect he has been considered both a conservative and progressive composer, resulting in a complex legacy: he cultivated admired representatives of older trouvère genres, but also experimented with newer dramatic works. Adam represented the final generation of the trouvère tradition and "has long been regarded as one of the most important musical and literary figures of thirteenth-century Europe".

Adam's literary and musical works include chansons and jeux-partis (poetic debates) in the style of the trouvères; polyphonic rondel and motets in the style of early liturgical polyphony; and a musical play, Jeu de Robin et Marion (c. 1282–83), which is considered the earliest surviving secular French play with music. He was a member of the Confrérie des jongleurs et bourgeois d'Arras, a fraternity of jongleurs.

Life and career
Adam's other nicknames, "le Bossu d'Arras" and "Adam d'Arras", suggest that he came from Arras, France. The sobriquet "the Hunchback" was probably a family name; Adam himself points out that he was not one. His father, Henri de la Halle, was a well-known Citizen of Arras, and Adam studied grammar, theology, and music at the Cistercian abbey of Vaucelles, near Cambrai. The father and son had their share in the civil discords in Arras, and for a short time took refuge in Douai. Adam had been destined for the church, but renounced this intention, and married a certain Marie, who features in many of his songs, rondeaux, motets and jeux-partis. Afterwards he joined the household of Robert II, Count of Artois; and then was attached to Charles of Anjou, brother of Louis IX, whose fortunes he followed in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, and Italy.

At the court of Charles, after Charles became king of Naples, Adam wrote his Jeu de Robin et Marion, the most famous of his works.

Works
His known works include thirty-six chansons (literally, "songs"), forty-six rondets de carole, eighteen jeux-partis, fourteen rondeaux, five motets, one rondeau-virelai, one ballette, one dit d'amour, and one congé.

Adam's shorter pieces are accompanied by music, of which a transcript in modern notation, with the original score, is given in Edmond de Coussemaker's edition. His Jeu de Robin et Marion is cited as the earliest French play with music on a secular subject. The pastoral, which tells how Marion resisted the knight, and remained faithful to Robert the shepherd, is based on an old chanson, Robin m'aime, Robin m'a. It consists of dialogue varied by refrains already current in popular song. The melodies to which these are set have the character of folk music, and are more spontaneous and melodious than the more elaborate music of his songs and motets. Fétis considered Le Jeu de Robin et Marion and Le Jeu de la feuillée forerunners of the comic opera. An adaptation of Le Jeu Robin et Marion, by Julien Tiersot, was played at Arras by a company from the Paris Opéra-Comique on the occasion of a festival in 1896 in honour of Adam de le Hale.

His other play, Le jeu Adan or Le jeu de la Feuillee (ca. 1262), is a satirical drama in which he introduces himself, his father and the citizens of Arras with their peculiarities. His works include a congé, or satirical farewell to the city of Arras, and an unfinished chanson de geste in honour of Charles of Anjou, Le roi de Secile, begun in 1282; another short piece, Le jeu du pelerin, is sometimes attributed to him.

Editions

 * article by Paulin Paris in: Histoire litteraire de La France (vol. xx. pp. 638–675)
 * The edition of Adam's two jeux in: Monmerqué and Michel's Theatre francais au moyen age (1842)
 * Oeuvres completes (1872), edited by E. de Coussemaker.
 * Ernest Langlois, Le jeu de Robin et Marion (1896), with a translation in modern French
 * A Guesnon, La Satire a Arras au XIIIe, siecle (1900)
 * Canchons et Partures des... Adan delle Hale, a critical edition by Rudolf Berger,(Halle, 1900)
 * Nigel Wilkins, The Lyric Works of Adam de la Halle, ed., Corpus Musicae, Vol.44, American Institute of Musicology, 1967.
 * Recent French ed. of complete works: edited by Pierre-Yves Badel (Paris: Livre de poche, 1995) (ISBN 2-253-06656-7)

Recordings

 * 1955 – Adam de La Halle. Le jeu de Robin et de Marion; 13 rondeaux (Raimbaut de Vaqueiras, Guillaume d'Amiens, Anon.). Pro Musica Antiqua, Brussels, Safford Cape, conductor. Recorded 23 June 1953, in the Palais des Academies, Brussels. Archiv Produktion II. Research Period: The Central Middle Ages. Series A: Troubadours, Trouvères and Minnesingers; Series B: Music of the Minstrels; Series C: Early Polyphony before 1300. LP recording, 1 disc: analog, monaural, $33 1/3$ rpm, 12 in. [Germany]: Archiv Produktion.
 * 1991 – Adam de La Halle. Le jeu de Robin et Marion. Ensemble Perceval, Guy Robert, director. Recorded 1980. CD recording, 1 disc: digital, stereo, $4 3/4$ in. Arion ARN 68162. France: Arion.
 * 1991 – Adam de La Halle. Le jeu de Robin et Marion. Schola Cantorum Basiliensis, Thomas Binkley, cond. Recorded May 1987 at the Barfüsserkirche in Basel, Switzerland. CD recording, 1 disc: digital, stereo, $4 3/4$ in. Focus 913. [Bloomington, Ind.]: Focus.
 * 1998 – "Robin Loves Me" arranged for solo guitar (and performed by) Gareth Koch as the final track of his "Carmina Burana" CD released by ABC Classics in 2006.
 * 2004 – Zodiac. Ars Nova and Ars Subtilior in the Low Countries and Europe'' Capilla Flamenca. Eufoda 1360.
 * 2006 – Adam de La Halle. D'amoureus cuer voel chanter, Anne Delafosse-Quentin, Les Jardins de Courtoisie, Zig Zag Territoires (ZZT070401)
 * 2019 – Noel Akchoté. Adam de La Halle – Le Doux Regard de ma Dame. Self published.

title: Adam de la Halle