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Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive1

Featured article candidates idea
The German Wikipedia uses a system whereby brilliant prose pages are first added to a page called Brilliant prose candidates, where people are requested to comment on the listed articles, similar to Votes for deletion, or Requests for adminship. Only if a nearly unanimous consensus is reached is the article actually added to Brilliant prose. I think this is a better solution than what we have now, because it keeps interest in the page alive, and people are actually encouraged to review the articles that are listed. It would also allow authors to list their own articles. What do you folks think? If there are no objections, I'll set this up. --Eloquence 20:12 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * good idea -- Tarquin 20:20 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, good idea. But I don't think people should nominate their own articles. --KF 20:23 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Well, we could technically allow it, but note that some people object to such nominations on principle. --Eloquence 20:24 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I immediately thought "good idea", and exactly because it would allow people to nominate their own articles. I've got a couple that I feel are bordering on brilliant, but I'd certainly feel entirely wrong adding them directly to the "Brilliant prose" page. And they're kind of off the beaten track, so not many people see them to get the idea in their heads that maybe it should be placed here. With such a page/process, I could at least see if other people agree, and it does belong here, or if I'm just completely full of myself. ;) -- John Owens 22:02 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a subsection of "Current nominations" for self-nominations, which have to be seconded, instead of just allowed by default after a week? -- John Owens 22:05 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I do think there should be some indication that something has been self-nominated. Otherwise, sooner or later, someone might come along, see something that's been nominated for a week, and move it over to "Brilliant prose" without realizing it's self-nominated. Should we just annotate it in the nomination, something like (if Eloquence had worked long and hard on same-sex marriage, which he hasn't):
 * Same-sex marriage and linked pages - seems fairly complete and accurate to me. Self-nomination. -- Eloquence 22:56 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * for example. Or, my above idea of a separate subsection. -- John Owens 23:03 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * P.S. Should we take this discussion over to the as-yet nonexistent Wikipedia talk:Brilliant prose candidates now? -- John Owens 23:09 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think it'd be nice to have newly accepted brilliant prose articles on the main page. Thoughts? Martin 09:45 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I like that idea. In addition and even better might be to have the nominees page linked of the main page, because that would increase traffic to those pages and also increase outside input on the brilliance of the articles, and so might be regarded as an especially valid sort of vote or evaluation. Plus, I imagine that it would help recruit people to the project, since every pop-up advertizer knows that people like to vote, and I imagine voting has a lower psychological threshold than clicking "edit" when you haven't explicitly been invited to and when the text can be perceived as "belonging" to someone else. Plus since the act of voting involves the same software functions as editing, new visitors would learn how to edit in the process.168... 21:25, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I find it xuriously straneg taht no-pne has nominated themselves for the honosr of veing lesetd here. Must hqvwe an extremely humple bunch of contributors. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 23:27 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * There...the page now has a self-nomination! I hereby forfeit any sense of humility I may (or may not) have had :)Adam Bishop 03:35 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are a (small) number of pages -- backwaters, mainly -- on which I've been the main contributor, that I think -- if not quite brilliant -- actually pretty OK. I won't nominate them and, being something of a sporadic and solo contributor, don't know anyone who would be prepared to second such a self nomination. So I'm here to shill for one. Regulars: please glace at, say, Bob Dylan, Gram Parsons, Neil Young or Miles Davis. If you like them, could you add them to the real list of nominations, or inform me you'd be willing to second them. Cheers -- User:GWO
 * Hell, I'll second Bob Dylan. And though it smacks of tit-for-tat, you might take a look at Race (it's already nominated). JDG 20:59, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This page has been up and running for a month or three now so I thought a quick review was in order. Basic conclusion: I think it is a good idea working pretty well. The only slight problem I can see is that if a) someone is present on WP and b) is knowledgeable about a subject, then they have probably contributed to the article on that subject. This appears to be leading to pages being listed on this page for way over the original mooted period of 1 week - perhaps people are afraid to second because they are trapped through lack of knowledge or being contributor. I see at least two possible improvements to the process -
 * 1) (not radical) Add a line to the preamble saying "It is not essential for you to fact check an article to second it. If you read an article and it reads very well and think you've learnt something then go ahead and second it. This is especially true of an article which has had plenty of contributors and discussion"... or something along those lines.
 * 2) (more radical) When an article is up for BP-hood, we (somehow) contact an external expert on the subject in question and ask for their comments. This may be a sneaky way of bringing experts to the WP table. We might not do this in every case, as obviously it requires someone to find out who to contact and how to contact that them, but it may create a win-win situation in some cases.

Pete 08:46, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * I prefer the second course of action and have in fact been thinking about doing just that in some cases. Brilliant prose should be our approval mechanism so we should aim at high standards, IMHO.—Eloquence 09:43, Oct 9, 2003 (UTC)

(I am withdrawing Non-Indo-European roots. . . until I can find out a bit more about the substance of the claimed inaccuracy. I am preserving the comments from this self-nom here.)

 * Non-Indo-European roots of Germanic languages - I had a bit of fun writing this one. It comes across rather well despite being written in a modified form of constrained writing, except for the proper nouns.  -- Smerdis of Tlön
 * That is very interesting...I always wondered why a lot of Pokorny's IE roots didn't go any farther back than Proto-Germanic. Adam Bishop 00:17, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * I would like to add my vote in favor -- An enlightening and very well-written piece! Polaris999
 * Oppose strenously on the present form of the article. The only factual point on which I can claim any knowledge on (derivation of "king"), was at best seriously misrepresented. The article may attain BrilliantProsehood, but it isn't there yet. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 18:48, Sep 9, 2003 (EDT)

I have always been puzzled why the threshold for brilliant prose is so low. I don't know of any other "candidates" or "proposed" page in Wikipedia where items automatically get approved if no action is taken. It takes majority votes to get a page deleted, a page undeleted or an admin promoted, so why is brilliant prose done the opposite way? At the very least, it should be called Prose with no objections or Unobjectionable prose, as not every item has been positively voted brilliant. Shouldn't this process change to better reflect 1) how other things are done in Wikipedia and 2) the title brilliant? Fuzheado 05:37, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I think the current process is very fair. If you think the article nominated is not brilliant, then you can rise an objection. The reasons of objection include not only NPOV problems but also the poor quality or the lack of coverage. But I agree with that brilliant might imply that writing is brilliant rather than the overall quality of the article. -- Taku 08:27, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)

 * I would argue it's beyond fair -- it's too generous. It starts with the assumption the article proposed is brilliant (which in Wikipedia is ill advised) and requires people to not only notice it's been listed, but to disprove it in a seven days period.  The value of a list like BP is its exclusivity, but perhaps uses too inclusive a process.  Fuzheado 09:15, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Not long ago there was no candidates page at all. The BP page was open to all... so things are more professional/rigourous (or to put it another way less 'wiki') than they used to be. I outlined part of the problem about having a more rigourous approach. _If_ someone has a deep interest/knowledge of a subject then they have probably already contributed to the article, and thus can't readily act as a validator for an article.

 * I quite like that this page has a name with quite a lyrical flourish. Calling it 'Particularly good articles' or something just wouldn't be the same. Pete 09:25, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

How long does a proposal with objections stay in this page? We have things here from October 5!! Muriel Victoria 10:28, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't think anyone knows how long they should stay - which is why nobody is removing them. Also, it seems to me that brilliant prose candidates is ignored by a huge number of wikipedians. Don't know why though. Anyway, IMHO it should be fine removing nominations with objections that are listed for more than a month. (But also make sure the point that was being objected to hasn't been fixed.) --snoyes 16:25, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Actually it would be best to put them in an archive. People can later use that as a way to find and fix articles that are almost brilliant prose. --mav 21:46, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I created a kindof archive for the "addition log" and the "objected log". But the page still looks messy. That's perhaps why people dont visit much... Muriel Victoria 10:45, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

i hate to be a burden...
I see Brilliant prose as our best foot forward. I like to imagine that a newcomer or skeptic could take a look at any article on Brilliant prose and be wowed. A member of the media could be sent there to poke around and be thoroughly impressed. This candidates-system was initiated in June of 2003 and has helped improve the Brilliant prose page.

The problem is there were already over 100 articles on Brilliant prose before the candidates-system was put into practice. And to be honest, some of them really shouldn't be there. For example, in their current states, for one reason or another, I would vote against any of the following articles from graduating to Brilliant prose: Geologic ages, Secure computing, Film theory, Three Colors: Blue, Freestyle music, Propaganda, Book of Mormon, Montreal Canadiens, Summer Olympic Games, Nude celebrities on the Internet, Political correctness, Sheepshead, Spacecraft propulsion, WikiProject U.S. States. These articles and others on Brilliant prose suffer from quirky formatting, mediocre writing, or sloppy editing - not our best foot forward.

I propose we create a process whereby each and every article that was on Brilliant prose prior to the candidates-system gets scrutinized, edited, and confirmed or denied. Kingturtle 11:45, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree with Kingturtle. I was thinking of nominating Geologic ages out already. I propose a List of Articles in BP (the ones previous to the candidate system) on which everybody can vote KEEP/REMOVE. After say, a month, we can "refresh" the BP page. Muriel Victoria 11:48, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I third the suggestion. Tannin 12:30, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Hear hear, definitely overdue. We should start by laying down what type of majority/consensus is needed. Fuzheado 12:58, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Yup, I considered this when setting up the system, but wanted to see if it works first. It's definitely a good idea now.—Eloquence 17:05, Nov 30, 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes, please. Many of these articles stood out in Wikipedia's first year, but they just don't cut it now. -- Stephen Gilbert 09:28, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * It is quite interesting how what was brilliant 18 months ago isn't so brilliant anymore. It's like looking at the special effects in Star Wars, and saying to myself "THOSE were great special effects?!" Kingturtle 09:59, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to prepare the voting page... Muriel Victoria 13:24, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Voting now in:
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - People and culture
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - History and religion
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - Others
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - Science
 * Well I can't argue with having an audit now and then... just wondering if the voting format is quite right.. a couple of things to consider: "articles with no votes will be considered boring and removed" - this might be a bit harsh - there are lots of things to vote on - we don't know how many people are going to take the time to make a judgement on them thus a voteless article may not be boring. Any thoughts? Secondly can major contributors vote on their own article(s). Pete/Pcb21 21:30, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I should add that our general rule is that we don't vote on these matters, we need consensus. If there's only one person arguing to remove an article from BP, that should be enough to do so, and their concerns should be addressed if at all possible (i.e. if doing so would not violate our policies).—Eloquence 21:59, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)
 * Strongly agree. Is it too late to change what is going to happen as a result of this vote? Proposed new resolution: All articles with any "not brilliant votes" are going to be brought to this candidate page for evaluation in the usual way. Possible variant: All articles with any "not brilliant votes" or no votes at all brought here. We these proposed new resolutions rules it is reasonable to suggest/insist people don't vote on their 'own' articles. With the current resolution I don't think it is reasonable.
 * Finally on a point of procedure (groan from the audience!)- the time taken from the first mention of a 'purge' to the vote being enacted was 26 hours. This is a bit short before deciding any issue needs a vote... anyone who took one day (shock! horror!) (in this case a Sunday!) off Wikipedia didn't get their chance to stick their oar in before a month-long vote was instigated. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:24, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC) P.S. Sorry Muriel I didn't mean this to detract from the effort you made in put together some well-organised vote pages... just I arrived to the party a bit late! Pete/Pcb21 (talk)

It didnt give loads of work, so dont worry. Anyway, i dont have any very strong convictions about this. I only think that some articles should be removed. As for the voting pages, they are just voting pages. We can see what happens there and meanwhile discuss what are we going to do with the results. Muriel Victoria 09:08, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Adenda: As for the harshness of the boring articles must go, that was mainly a joke to convince people to vote. But i actually think we must be severe in this matter. After all, the Brilliant prose page is what we are publicizing as our best: it must be our best. Muriel Victoria 09:13, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Ok that's fair enough. With that point on board it looks like the "Possible variant" I outlined above seems to be the way to go as it would be compatible with both your and Eloquence's views here. Others can of course comment further as the month progresses! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:50, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Having voted for/against a number of articles, I have just suddenly concluded that I should be doing no such thing. All the articles on these four voting pages should really just be moved to Brilliant prose candidates and go through the regular nomination/seconding process with requests for nominators posted on village pump. Also: is there any way to encourage people to second new candidates? Some of the candidates are not so new any more. Bmills 13:15, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Cleaning up Brilliant prose candidates
I have decided to be bold.

Can I suggest a one-month cutoff for unseconded and disputed candidates?

I am about to post to village pump asking for seconders.

Bmills 15:52, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

To clarify: one month limit is there already for disputed candidates, one week for undisputed. Only self-added articles currently need a seconder. I'd suggest that all articles should be seconded and that one week is not long enough to allow for objections. Bmills 16:15, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Review needed for
Digital Millennium Copyright Act was added on 3 March 2003 and has since been extensively reworked, with a portion removed from it and substantially expanded now residing at Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act (OCILLA). OCILLA tries a very tough job - to explain a complicated law and how to follow it in a way which normal people can understand. If it succeeds in that and as an article, it's a candidate for legal Brilliant Prose (as the primary author of the current revision, I'm not neutral). Jamesday 02:47, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Refreshing brilliant prose
Dear friends of BP. As of December 15, middle of the voting-refreshing process, and taking Refreshing brilliant prose - Others as an example, i can see six types of artcle-status. I have a few ideas to what to do with them, that i would like to share with you.
 * Consensus to keep (5 articles) - I say keep
 * Consensus to remove (8 art) - I say remove
 * Tie (3 art) - I say remove
 * Borderline keep (3 art) - I say remove
 * Borderline remover (15 art) - I say remove
 * Empty (no votes, 3 art) - I say remove

By borderline i want to mean articles with votes for both sides, or with one vote only. The consensus articles have more than one vote (to keep or remove). I say remove all in doubt because i think that less is more. This should also work as an incentive for people to work on these articles. This opinion may be harsh, but i think we must be rigorous in what concerns BP. Can i have your comments? Muriel Victoria 16:10, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My view is that any article with even one vote to remove should be removed. ALso, articles with no votes should be added to the Candidates page as a new category: pages now needing a seconder. Bmills 16:13, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * We are not going to have much BP left :) Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 10:37, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Adding this from Village Pump history:

Brilliant Prose Voting
Decision time approaches. Lots of votes cast and the picture is a bit clearer. Here's a proposal:

 * All unopposed Keeps are kept.
 * All articles with one or more Remove votes go.
 * All articles with no votes are added to Brilliant prose candidates

Anyone got a better idea?

To view the votes so far:

 * Refreshing brilliant prose - Science
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - People and culture
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - History and religion
 * Refreshing brilliant prose - Others

 * All articles with 1+ remove votes are out? In my opinion too harsh. Why are remove votes weighed heavier than keep votes? Even the most excellent article will be disliked by someone. Tuf-Kat has voted about 80% of the articles out. Maybe limit votes per person to 10 items? Erik Zachte 12:21, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Erik - a single remove vote is far too little to justify removal, particularly if there are keep votes too. If there are the same number, or more, keep votes than removes then it ought at least to go to Brilliant prose candidates. -- Arwel 12:34, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * That seems to be the most reasonable compromise. Any differences of opinion can then be resolved on the candidates page, which, unlike the voting page, also requires a justification for an opinion.—Eloquence

 * My own view is that to keep something as Brilliant Prose, consensus is required. Anything that is removed can always be added to candidates for reconsideration. Bmills 12:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

So how about:

 * All articles with at least one vote and no Removes stay.
 * All articles with at least one vote and no Keeps are removed.
 * All other articles go to candidates under the heading Moved after voting.

???? Bmills 13:51, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Not a bad idea. As Eloquence says above, moving things to the Candidates page has the advantage that the opinions come with justification. Even an article that has one lone advocate against the world probably merits some statement of what the rejectors think needs to be changed, even if that turns out to be "Everything." Dandrake 00:17, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * London congestion charge has 7 votes to 1 in favour of keeping but under these rules will be removed... in the name of consensus! I don't really understand but would appreciate it if someone would tell me what to do to the article to improve it. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 07:20, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Not exactly removed, but moved to candidates where it will sit for one week. Assuming no objections, it will go back, if there is an objection, it will have to be explained. Have you asked the user who voted to remove why they did so? Bmills 09:07, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I have no direct disagreement with any specific interpretation of the voting results, as long as everyone is allowed a reasonable time to switch their votes after the final method of interpreting the votes is decided. If any of the above interpretations are implemented, I will certainly be changing a couple of my votes... -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 12:49, Jan 8, 2004 (UTC)

Boilerplate
I think we should add a boilerplete text in the talk page of the nominees. It should go like...
 * This article has been nominated on Brilliant prose candidates. Please refer to that page if you wish to second or contest the nomination.

The purpose is encorage discussion and let know that the article was nominated. Thoughts? Muriel Victoria 10:27, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Good idea. Muriel, can you look at the nominations that remain. Some are there longer than a week withouth objections, but as I am involved with the pages, I do not want to be the one to add them to BP. Bmills 10:30, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * I like the idea too. Bmills - this is this main problem with BP at the moment - if someone is qualified to say "yes this article is very good/complete/etc" then they are very likely to have contributed already to the article because it is something they are interested in. No simple remedy to this is available.. though Eloquence and I muse on bringing in external "verifiers" at Wikipedia_talk:Brilliant prose. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 10:37, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if external 'verifiers' are required, unless it is for technical accuracy (including factual, historical, etc.). Mostly, the community is in a position to decide, and some users have probably got a track record that would allow their contributions to be taken at face value. The key thing is: would a person coming to an encyclopedia actually get anything from the article? Is the article well structured and grammatical? Does it explain? Does it do so clearly? Does it give a context? Are the links adding value?

The problem seems to be to get the community more interested in the BP process and outcome. Bmills 11:04, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Recognition matters; it is hard to get people to think that a process here matters, if it gets picky rather than is by acclaim. Charles Matthews 11:08, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Maybe the boilerplate would result in more articles ending up as candidates and this would drive interest? Bmills 11:27, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I came here to suggest the same idea for a boilerplate. I would further like to suggest that a different notice be placed at the top of the talk page if a page is accepted, so that viewers who are interested enough to check the talk can see that it is on the brilliant prose page.  Keeping a permanent tag there might puff up interest in getting pages on brilliant prose. Tuf-Kat 03:52, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)
 * I put the boilerplate at the top of the page I self nominated, just like a VfD notice. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't go to the talk page of every article I read, and we should be requesting participation from those who have used the article, not just those of us who watch this page.  After the appointment, I agree with Tuf-Kat that some kind of notice should go on the talk page. Gentgeen 08:31, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Please, not in the page itself! Its completely off topic with the article! I'm glad everybody agrees with the boilerplate. Unfortunately i dont have time to put them in the pages - Christmas holidays with internet only in mother's home :) Happy holidays all Muriel Victoria 15:55, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * I boldly added something to this effect, deftly no-commenting on the issue of whether or not to place the notice on the talk page or the article. I'm don't really care -- I always check the talk page, but I'm inclined to think it should be on the main article.  It's only temporary, after all, and I don't think too intrusive.  Once it's been accepted, the notice that it is listed on BP should be moved to the talk page, of course, but not the nomination announcement could be in the article. We put NPOV disputes, factual accuracy disputes and VfD notices on it -- why not a positive notice in addition to these negative ones?Tuf-Kat

Since i'm out of here for a while, i think the BP refreshing will be taken care of in my absence. My feelings are: Happy new year and stuff for all Muriel Victoria 17:09, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * we should remove from BP everything except unanimous decisions to keep, stated by more than 2 users - because we must be strict. It is also in my opinion a way to encourage people to polish the removed articles.
 * the boilerplate should be always in the Talk Page - because its absolutely of topic. The VfD notice is not comparable because in this case the article is not in a life threatening situation.
 * if the boilerplate is agreed to be put in the main article, please - at the bottom!

Someone who understands what this page is about better than I do might want to write a summary of how it works at Wikipedia_maintenance. Thanks. Angela. 16:45, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do spell out some concise instructions. I wrote an objection to "concept album,"  then found that it had been revereted into oblivion (because I moved the listing?).  So I came back and replaced the objection, leaving it in the "uncontested section.  I come back today to see that "concept album" has been advanced to "brilliant" status, and my objection has been left behind, as if it were an objection to another page--alanis morrisette?--I don't remember.  So, as I newcomer, I don't get it, and I may not be alone.

Brilliant prose
From User talk:168...

''Please don't add that header to articles no matter how brilliant they are. It makes the article look ugly, and it is gloating on our part. Dori | Talk 18:13, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)''

''Gloating is fun and in this case I don't think it hurts anybody. It signals readers that the community considers the text a worthy example of a Wikipedia article, guides them and spurs them to do a good job on other articles, and hopefully deters them from making hasty edits to the "brilliant" one. The Brilliant prose candidates page invites people to put exactly that label in the article. That's what inspired me to do it.168... 18:26, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)''

 * There is no need to advertise this on every article in the main namespace though. It is enough to mention that there is such a list and where one could find the list. As I said, the articles would suffer from it. Dori | Talk 18:34, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the label isn't pretty. I think we should have an actual logo and a discreet and official spot on each page where, if an article has earned it, the logo should go.168... 18:39, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * How is the top of the article discreet, and besides it is POV to declare an article brilliant even if it is several editors that think so. Dori | Talk 18:43, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Dori - it's ugly as it bumps the entire article down at least two lines, and leaves lots of white space. Even more important, I object to an article deemed "brilliant" being a implicit "freeze."  This is a Wiki after all and we should not be deterring editing just because of this designation.  The forward pointers from a brilliant prose list to articles are useful.  The back pointers from each article at the top is not.  If we do choose to put the label, it should be at the bottom, out of the way, as a footnote. Fuzheado 18:44, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I didn't mean to suggest a "freeze," but more of a cooling breeze for potentially hot heads. If people realize that the article they are poised to edit covers a subject they are not very expert in, and if they see that the article has undergone scrutiny and been judged as good, they may decide to proceed with more caution. Absent a label, I suspect many reasonably informed people will feel free to change anything in an article that strikes them as off, just based on what they recall from school or the newspaper or conversations with friends they consider educated. But if the people about to edit aren't experts, then their intuition is liable to be wrong. Perhaps if they see the label they'll be inspired to a little research before making their change, which they wouldn't otherwise have done. If so, that increases the odds that the changes they make will be valuable ones, and if it happens generally, it means that "brilliant" articles drift less rapidly than ones that we have not designated brilliant. That's what we want, right? We want articles to converge on something good, right? Or are they to drift about forever? 168... 19:03, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * P.S. although I described a scenario where the issue was knowledge of the subject matter, the same thing applies to neutrality and to good prose. A person may read an article and say "My God, that's biased!" and prepare to rain down edits upon it like fire and brimstone. But a "brilliant prose" label will alert them that the article has been deemed acceptable by many people and so probably from people of various perspectives. Likewise with the quality of writing. Everybody can benefit from an editor, but the corollary is that every editor's judgement can sometimes be faulty. It's more likely to be faulty when the would-be editor is poised to change an article that has passed a lot of scrutiny.168... 19:23, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Ah, but that's the eternal question of the Wikipedia universe isn't it? You're asking for the solution to the Wikipedia 1.0 problem, which has been very elusive. Fuzheado 19:09, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Me shy away from elusive eternal questions? Never. Bring them on, I say. Tomorrow at 02:00 GMT I shall be solving the mind-body problem. Be sure to tune in.168... 19:23, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

To be fair, 168 was just following the guidelines which says to put the "This is brilliant prose" message on the articles. However, I'd like to formally give notice of intent to get rid of the message altogether. Fuzheado 18:48, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The article may well have been brilliant prose, but adding "This article is Brilliant Prose!!!!" brings the average down, so that the article just doesn't seem like brilliant prose any more... Κσυπ Cyp    19:01, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I strongly agree. This message should be removed ASAP.—Eloquence

What about labels like this one, which appears in the sample place across the top of DNA: For alternative meanings see DNA (disambiguation) That's ugly and not necessary there either. I'd love to see it go. But if we tolerate that kind of thing, I don't see what the fuss is over the esthetics of the currently proposed brilliant-prose labelling strategy. Anyway, as I said, the esthetics could be greatly improved without rejecting the practice in principle.168...

I'll weigh in to say I agree with the above comments by Dori and others. I don't think discouraging contributions is practice we should be fostering here, and therefore the possibility that a user might muck up a "perfect" article is not justification for the BP header. A logo would be excessive, regardless of its placement. The list of brilliant prose articles is easy enough to find: we don't need reciprocal links.

Aside from being uncomely, the header is also inappropriate and obtrusive from a user's perspective. Users are there to read the article, not a critique of its prose. A user simply wouldn't care what we Wikipedians think of an article, so why shout it at them?

As for disambiguation notices such as the one atop DNA, they're functionally appropriate. Someone directed to DNA shouldn't have to wade through the article to find the disambig page. Hadal 19:46, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * "Discouraging contributions" is overstating the point. "Fostering careful contribution" is more like it. I believe we do want to discourage contributions from five year olds who don't speak English. At least, I do. We don't have to go out of our way to discourage these particular potential contributors, but that's just because they are naturally reticent. Doing nothing actively to discourage them doesn't make us open to everybody or especially virtuous. I believe we do have preferences implicitly, whether or not we choose to take a laissez faire approach to getting the outcome we like. Also as I hoped to convey in my other posts, I think the issue here shouldn't be seen as about label placement or looks, because those can be changed into anything we like, but instead should be about whether to place any indicator anywhere at all.168... 23:14, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * To weigh in as well, I don't like the "this article is Brilliant prose" label either, and have not used it. However, I do like the "this article has been nominated..." label, as I think it's important that those who use the article, not just those of us addicted to this page, get a chance to express weather a page is brilliant or not. Gentgeen 20:13, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Consensus seems to be to place the nomination notice on the article page, and the acceptance notice on the talk page, so I have updated this article to reflect that. Since some of the comments above are kind of ambiguous, I may not be reading everyone's opinions right.  If you don't think this is best, please explain what you would prefer and why. Tuf-Kat

 * TUF-KAT's reading is my interpretation too and i agree with it. And now...

What are we going to do with the poll results??? We should remove from BP everything except unanimous decisions to keep, stated by more than 2 users - because we must be strict. It is also in my opinion a way to encourage people to polish the removed articles. Muriel Victoria 09:29, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Have you seen the discussion on Village Pump????? Please add yout thoughts there, as I seem to be outnumbered. Bmills 09:33, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Refreshing: The final round
As I understand it from the "Brilliant prose voting" section, the old entries that didn't get unanimous approval are now in "Candidates from voting" for a second consideration. Any that don't get objections in a week will stay in Brilliant Prose. Objections will be detailed, not just a Keep/Delete vote, so that the pieces can be worked on just like new Brilliant Prose candidates that have been objected to.

Is this right?

This early in the process, there seem to be very few votes listed, but they seem to be simple Keep/Delete votes. Am I misreading something? Dandrake 01:45, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

This is right. I intend to come back early next week to a: remove all articles with no objections from this page and b: remove all articles with objections from Featured articles (formerly Brilliant prose). Objections should give some reason. Bmills 11:12, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Meanwhile, please do not move any of these out of the with objections section. The full month needs to be given for people to raise further objections. Bmills 09:53, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry. I was just moving articles around and saw one in the with objections area that had the objection withdrawn.  I wasn't paying attention to which class of nomination is was. Gentgeen 09:57, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * No problem. The sooner the month is up and the page returns to a better size, the better. Bmills 10:28, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

History of England appears twice on the list: once in the without-objections section (with 2 objections attached) and once in the with-objections. This is probably not right. Dandrake 21:10, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Hectograph

The hectograph, gelatin duplicator or jellygraph is a printing process that involves transfer of an original, prepared with special inks, to a pan of gelatin or a gelatin pad pulled tight on a metal frame.

While the original use of the technology has diminished, it has recently been revived for use in the art world. The hectograph has been modernized and made practical for anyone to use.

Process
The special aniline dyes for making the master image came in the form of ink or in pens, pencils, carbon paper and even typewriter ribbon. Hectograph pencils and pens are sometimes still available. Various other inks have been found usable to varying degrees in the process; master sheets for spirit duplicators have also been pressed into service. Unlike a spirit duplicator master, a hectograph master is not a mirror image. Thus, when using a spirit duplicator master with a hectograph, one writes on the back of the purple sheet, using it like carbon paper to produce an image on the white sheet, rather than writing on the front of the white sheet to produce a mirror image on its back.

The master is placed on the gelatin and spirits applied to transfer the ink from the master to the gelatin. After transfer of the image to the inked gelatin surface, copies are made by pressing paper against it.

When a pad ceased to be useful, the gelatin could be soaked with spirits, the ink sponged away, and the pad left clean for the next master.

Storage
A grey-colored, thick, absorbent paper pad was supplied to cover the gelatin surface for storage. This also removed ink from the surface, but it took many hours to do so. Care needed to be taken that the gelatin surface was kept clean, and not damaged (e.g. by fingernails) during duplicating.

Although the name "hecto-graph" implies production of 100 copies, in reality the gelatin process produced print runs of somewhere between 20 and 80 copies, depending upon the skill of the user and the quality of the original. At least eight different colors of hectographic ink were available at one time, but purple was the most popular because of its density and contrast.

Historical uses
Hectography, requiring limited technology and leaving few traces behind, has been deemed useful both in low-technology environments and in clandestine circumstances where discretion was necessary. In the earlier 20th century, the process lent itself to small runs of school classroom test papers, church newsletters and science fiction fanzines. Prisoners-of-war at Stalag Luft III (the scene of The Great Escape) and at Colditz Castle during World War II used an improvised hectograph to reproduce documents for a planned escape attempt.

The Communist authorities in the Jiangsu–Anhui Border Area of China used the process for postage stamps in November 1948, produced in sheets of 35, with thirteen $50 values, six $100, twelve $200, two $300 and two $500 values.

It has also been used, though not very extensively, as an artistic medium in printmaking. The Russian Futurists used it for book illustrations, and the German expressionist Emil Nolde made four hectographs.

Stephen King, in his book On Writing, writes of how he and his elder brother Dave used the process to create their newspaper, Dave's Rag.

It was also used in professional situations; in Macy's advertising department during the 1950s and 1960s, full-page newspaper ad layouts were drawn with hectograph pencils and then duplicated on a hectograph to make file copies for future reference. Before the popularization of spirit duplicators and the mimeograph, there were mechanized hectography machines that used a drum, rather than a simple flat tray of gelatin.

In fiction
In the final chapters of The Pothunters by P. G. Wodehouse the major characters use a jellygraph to produce a school magazine at very short notice. Wodehouse assumes his reader knows exactly what a jellygraph is and alludes to its being unattractive: "This jelly business makes one beastly sticky. I think we'll keep to print in future."

George Orwell's Keep the Aspidistra Flying (1936) describes a somewhat more subversive schoolboy publication:

"And at that moment, in the years just after the War, England was so full of revolutionary opinion that even the public schools were infected by it. The young, even those who had been too young to fight, were in a bad temper with their elders, as well they might be; practically everyone with any brains at all was for the moment a revolutionary. Meanwhile the old—those over sixty, say—were running in circles like hens, squawking about "subversive ideas". Gordon and his friends had quite an exciting time with their "subversive ideas". For a whole year they ran an unofficial monthly paper called the Bolshevik, duplicated with a jellygraph. It advocated Socialism, free love, the dismemberment of the British Empire, the abolition of the Army and Navy, and so on and so forth. It was great fun. Every intelligent boy of sixteen is a Socialist. At that age one does not see the hook sticking out of the rather stodgy bait."

Present day
While the hectograph process is obsolete for printing on paper, it is still used for making temporary tattoos on human skin. Tattoo artists use hectograph pencils to draw pictures on paper and then transfer them to the recipient's skin.

A similar method is used by nail artists and manicurists for a process called nail stamping. Nail polish is brushed onto a metal plate which is etched with a pattern. After wiping off the excess, the stamping block is pushed against the plate, picking up the polish retained by the etched area, which is then transferred to the recipient's fingernail.

It is also used to create unique acrylic paint prints. The gelatine hectograph has been commercialized by Joan Bess and Lou Ann Gleason. The hectograph has been plasticized, and made more resilient. Recipes are available on the Web for creating a printing plate from common household materials.

The basic printing technique is uncomplicated. Paint is spread over the plate with a brayer, a sheet of paper is placed over the paint, then the back of the paper is rubbed briefly and the print pulled up. The wet paint adheres to the paper. The attractive characteristics of the prints are due to the marks made in the paint before the paper is placed on the plate.

The substrate materials used for printing are diverse: any paper can be used; fabric, plastic/acetate sheets, different types of tape, cardboard, wooden boards, sheet metal, almost anything that paint will stick to can be used. The prints can be used in many different artistic applications.

title: Hectograph


text:
Biff Tannen

Biff Howard Tannen is a fictional character and the main antagonist of the Back to the Future trilogy. Thomas F. Wilson plays Biff in all three films as well as the Universal Studios ride, and voiced the character in the animated series. Aidan Cutler played him in the original West End production of the first film's stage musical adaptation, and Nathaniel Hackmann plays him in the Broadway production. Biff is the main antagonist of the first and second films. Biff's great-grandfather, Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen (also played by Wilson), is the main antagonist of the third.

The character is portrayed as a hulking, belligerent, dim-witted bully who obtains what he wants by intimidating others into doing his work for him, or by cheating. He and his family members are shown to misuse idioms in ways that make them appear foolish and comical, despite their intention to insult or intimidate. He frequently calls others "butthead".

Biff's early life and nature
Biff was born in Hill Valley, California in the year 1937. He is the great-grandson of Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen, son of Irving "Kid" Tannen and grandfather of Griff Tannen. He bullied George McFly into doing his homework for him while he drank and hung out with his friends. Feared by most of his schoolmates, he was less brave without his gang (Match, Skinhead, and 3-D). The only person at Hill Valley High School that Biff fears is Mr. Strickland. Biff lives with his grandmother, Gertrude Tannen, at 1809 Mason Street. In 1955, Biff proudly owned a black 1946 Ford Deluxe convertible which he drove around Hill Valley. He has a particular dislike for manure, displayed when he is shoved into large quantities of it at multiple points during the films.

Stealing Doc's time machine in 2015, an aged and physically decrepit Biff travels back in time to 1955 to give his vigorously-hotheaded teenage self the sports almanac, then heads back to the future again, hoping to gain a happier life as a result of his actions. And initially, things do indeed appear to move in a positive direction for him --- on his 21st birthday in 1958, Biff's younger self wagers money on a horse race that's listed in the almanac with the victorious steed's name revealed, winning his first million dollars and giving himself prestige and arrogant confidence like he'd never had before. However, despite his progressively gaining vast wealth and power through this "fixed" sports-event betting, Young Biff is still unable to convince Lorraine to marry him, and watches in bitter seething envy over the following 15 years as Lorraine instead marries George McFly and begins to raise a family of three --- Dave, Linda, and finally Marty. At last, Biff resorts to murdering George in 1973, and is able to use his money and political influence to cover his guilt. And soon, without George's supporting her and her family financially, Lorraine feels compelled to actually accept the well-to-do Biff as her new husband. The petulant and arrogantly tempestuous Biff never really feels content in the marriage as Lorraine was a more of a prize to be won and possessed, and often lashes out verbally and physically; Lorraine eventually gets so fed up with Biff's overbearing hostility and abuse, along with finding out that Biff murdered George, that she shoots him dead sometime in the late '90's. Thus, when the "original" Old Biff returns in the DeLorean to 2015 and totters out of the DeLorean in anticipation of being satisfied at last, he instead clutches his chest in pain, sinks to the pavement, and then merely fades from existence.

Biff's relationships
In 1955, Biff coveted Lorraine Baines who did not return the sentiments. In the original 1985, Biff's marital status is unknown as no mention of a wife was ever made in the trilogy.

The alternate 1985 reveals that Lorraine, widowed after the murder of George McFly, ended up marrying Biff in 1973 so that her children could live a better life. In a video clip after their wedding, Biff is asked, "how does it feel?", to which he replies, "third time's the charm".

Biff's children
By 2015, Biff has a teenage grandson, Griff, suggesting that Biff had at least one child by 1985. The animated series alludes that Biff has a son, Biff Jr, while the 2011 Game alludes to a daughter "Tiff".

Character creation
The character is named for studio executive Ned Tanen following an incident years earlier where Tanen reacted aggressively to a script being pitched by the film's writers Bob Gale and Robert Zemeckis. Tanen accused the two of attempting to produce an antisemitic work with their 1978 film, I Wanna Hold Your Hand. Drafts of Back to the Future show the character with the middle initial of "H", but this detail was omitted in further revisions.

As the October 2015 date featured in the films approached, media outlets began noting the similarities between the alternate 1985 version of the character and Donald Trump, who at the time Part II was produced had just purchased the Plaza Hotel in New York City and, by 2015, was in the midst of an ultimately successful run for President of the United States. When the comparison was brought to Gale's attention in an interview, he said, "Yeah. That's what we were thinking about". Both The Daily Beast and Rolling Stone note the similarities of Biff's casino penthouse to Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino; additionally, The Beast points out that in Back to the Future Part II:"Biff uses the profits from his 27-story casino... to help shake up the Republican Party, before eventually assuming political power himself, helping transform Hill Valley, California, into a lawless, dystopian wasteland, where hooliganism reigns, dissent is quashed, and wherein Biff encourages every citizen to call him 'America's greatest living folk hero'."

The fact checking website Snopes, however, doubts this claim, noting that neither Gale nor Zemeckis mentioned anything about Trump being the inspiration for the character until after comparisons began appearing in social media, and saying that it "...appeared to be retrofitted to 2015's current events, not prescience on the part of the filmmakers in 1985".

title: Biff Tannen


text:
Talk:American Brahman

Untitled
If the Brahman is a US cow that was created by crossbreading an indian and a european cow, how can it be a sacred cow of hinduism, when most hindus live in India? Perl 19:14, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * The Brahman is Bos indicus, which is from Asia. It has been carried to many other places in the world. It has also been crossbred with European cattle, in which case it is a hybrid.Pollinator 22:47, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A brazilian agronomist never saw a Brahman
Well, my e-mail is daltonagre@uol.com.br .I must tell that the information claiming Brahman is widely used in Brazil is false.I know all zebu races available in Brazil.And I never saw a Brahman, except on magazines, computer and TV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.2.143 (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Brahman_cattle.JPG
It seems that the picture labeled "Brahman_cattle.JPG" is claimed to be in India on this page, and on the "Cattle" page the same picture is claimed to be in Costa Rica.

Jumping Brahman
I have heard that Brahman can jump over fences! Can anyone verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.35.245 (talk) 05:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen it several times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.143.16 (talk) 23:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I have seen it too. Whoever suggested Brahmans are 'docile' has never worked with them in the yards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.54.171.143 (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Breeds and breed registries
- Could info please be added re whether there are different breeds within the category "Brahman"? - Also, could info on the breed registies and breed registry association please be added to the main body of the text (not just in external links)? Thanks -- 201.17.36.246 (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Style?
I won't pass judgment on the content of this article, but its style seems quite amateurish in very many places and, indeed, overall. One gets the impression that it was written by a non-native English speaker, in which case I would gladly give it an "A" for effort. Toddcs (talk) 22:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Deleted section
This section had been blanked and replaced with graffiti which has now been removed: {{Quote|

Characteristics
The American Brahman breed has a distinct large hump over the top of the shoulder and neck and a loose flap of skin (dewlap) hanging from the neck. The breed is also known for its long, floppy ears. Bulls weigh 1,600 to 2,200 pounds (800 to 1,100kg) whereas cows weigh 1,000 to 1,400 pounds (500 to 700kg). At birth, calves weigh 60 to 65 pounds (30 to 33kg). Brahman cattle may be gray or red. Their tail switch is black, and they have black pigmentation on their noses, ear tips, and hooves. Brahman are primarily a horned breed of cattle, although some bloodlines of Brahman are naturally polled (without horns).

Brahmans can withstand intense heat, unlike European cattle. They have smooth, short-haired coats and more sweat glands. They are also more resistant to parasites and disease due to their oily skin, which may help repel insect pests. Brahmans have been extensively crossbred with Mexican cattle in the subtropical United States, Central America, and other tropical areas of the world to increase their resistance to parasites and their tolerance of heat. Brahman-crossed cattle, referred to as F-1 Brahmans, are very popular in the southern third of the United States and in South America, Asia, and Australia because they can withstand the sub-tropical climates. An F-1 Brahman can be a cross between any two unrelated breeds; however, the breed is most popular when crossed with Hereford or Angus.

A Brahman cow is an good mother, offering protection and an abundance of milk for her calves. Brahman calves tend to have high weights at weaning because of the rich milk given by Brahman cows. In some countries, especially in South America, Brahman cattle are used for both milk and beef production. }} I would restore it, but it needs references and the second and third paragraphs possibly need rewriting to be less promotional. Peter James (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:American Brahman


text:
Maria Malibran

Maria Felicia Malibran (24 March 1808 – 23 September 1836) was a Spanish singer who commonly sang both contralto and soprano parts, and was one of the best-known opera singers of the 19th century. Malibran was known for her stormy personality and dramatic intensity, becoming a legendary figure after her death in Manchester, England, at age 28. Contemporary accounts of her voice describe its range, power and flexibility as extraordinary.

Early life
María Felicitas García Sitches was born into a famous Spanish musical family in Paris. Her mother was Joaquina Sitches, an actress and operatic singer. Her father Manuel García was a celebrated tenor much admired by Rossini, having created the role of Count Almaviva in his The Barber of Seville. García was also a composer and an influential vocal instructor, and he was her first voice teacher. He was described as inflexible and tyrannical; the lessons he gave his daughter became constant quarrels between two powerful egos.

Career
Malibran first appeared on stage in Naples with her father in Ferdinando Paër's Agnese, when she was eight years old. When she was 17, she was a singer in the choir of the King's Theatre in London. When prima donna Giuditta Pasta became indisposed, García suggested that his daughter take over in the role of Rosina in The Barber of Seville. The audience loved the young mezzo, and she continued to sing this role until the end of the season.

When the season closed, García immediately took his operatic troupe to New York. The troupe consisted primarily of the members of his family: Maria, her brother, Manuel, and their mother, Joaquina Sitches, also called "la Briones". Maria's younger sister, Pauline, who would later become a famous singer in her own right under the name of Pauline Viardot, was then only four years old.

This was the first time that Italian opera was performed in New York City. Over a period of nine months, Maria sang the lead roles in eight operas, two of which were written by her father. In New York, she met and hastily married a banker, Francois Eugene Malibran, who was 28 years her senior. It is thought that her father forced Maria to marry him in return for the banker's promise to give Manuel García 100,000 francs. However, according to other accounts, she married simply to escape her tyrannical father. A few months after the wedding, her husband declared bankruptcy, and Maria was forced to support him through her performances. After a year, she left Malibran and returned to Europe.

In Europe, Malibran sang the title role at the premiere of Donizetti's Maria Stuarda. The opera was based on Friedrich Schiller's play Mary Stuart, and as it portrayed Mary, Queen of Scots in a sympathetic light, censors demanded textual amendments, which Malibran often ignored. The Library of the Royal Conservatory of Brussels conserves a series of interesting coloured costume projects for this play, created by Malibran, revealing her unsuspected drawing talent.

Malibran became romantically involved with the Belgian violinist Charles Auguste de Bériot. The pair lived together as a common-law couple for six years and a child was born to them in 1833 (the piano pedagogue Charles-Wilfrid de Bériot), before Maria obtained an annulment of her marriage to Malibran. Felix Mendelssohn wrote an aria accompanied by a solo violin especially for the couple. Malibran sang at the Paris Opera among other major opera houses. In Paris, she met and performed with Michael Balfe.

Last years and death
In 1834, Malibran moved to England and began to perform in London and Europe. In Venice, she performed Vincenzo Bellini's La sonnambula on 8 April 1835, where she donated her performance to the dilapidated Teatro San Giovanni Grisostomo, inspiring its restoration. It was renamed Teatro Malibran and she was hailed and venerated as its patroness. In late May 1836, she starred in The Maid of Artois, written for her by Balfe. Earlier that year she had returned to Milan to sing the title role in the premiere of Vaccai's Giovanna Gray. In July 1836, Malibran fell from her horse and suffered injuries from which she never recovered. She refused to see a physician and continued to perform. In September 1836 she was in Manchester participating in a music festival at the collegiate church and Theatre Royal on Fountain Street. She collapsed on stage while performing encores at the theatre, but insisted on performing in the church the following morning and died after a week of agony, attended by her private physician. Her body was temporarily buried in the church after a public funeral before being moved to a mausoleum in Laeken Cemetery, near Brussels in Belgium. The Library of The Royal Conservatory of Brussels conserves, amongst others, the death mask, the poignant four-page funerary report of Dr. Belluomini as well as the authorisation of the Manchester ecclesiastical authority to have Malibran's body transferred to Brussels (Maria Malibran fund, B-Bc; FC-2-MM-006 sq.).

Roles and vocal style

Malibran is most closely associated with the operas of Rossini. The composer extolled her virtues: "Ah! That wonderful creature! With her disconcerting musical genius she surpassed all who sought to emulate her, and with her superior mind, her breadth of knowledge and unimaginable fieriness of temperament she outshone all other women I have known...."

Among other operas, she sang the title role in Tancredi and in Otello, in which it appears that she sang both the roles of Desdemona and of Otello. Other appearances included those in Il turco in Italia, La Cenerentola, and Semiramide (both Arsace and the title role).

She also sang in Giacomo Meyerbeer's Il crociato in Egitto in Paris in September 1825, an opera which Rossini, as director of the Théâtre-Italien, introduced to the French capital and "which launched Meyerbeer's European reputation". Malibran enjoyed great success in Bellini's operas Norma, La sonnambula and I Capuleti e i Montecchi (as Romeo). She also sang the Romeo role in two other then-famous operas: Giulietta e Romeo by Zingarelli and Giulietta e Romeo by Vaccai. Bellini wrote a new version of his I puritani to adapt it to her mezzo-soprano voice and even promised to write a new opera especially for her, but he died before he was able to do so.

Malibran's tessitura (comfortable vocal range) was remarkably wide, from E♭ below middle C to high C and D, which allowed her easily to sing roles for contralto as well as high soprano. Her contemporaries admired Malibran's emotional intensity on stage. Rossini, Donizetti, Chopin, Mendelssohn and Liszt were among her fans. The painter Eugène Delacroix however, accused her of lacking refinement and class and of trying to "appeal to the masses who have no artistic taste." Describing her voice and technique, French critic Castil-Blaze wrote, "Malibran's voice was vibrant, full of brightness and vigor. Without ever losing her flattering timbre, this velvet tone that has given her so much seduction in tender and passionate arias. [...] Vivacity, accuracy, ascending chromatics runs, arpeggios, vocal lines dazzling with strength, grace or coquetry, she possessed all that the art can acquire."

Notable Roles:
 * Isoline in Balfe's The Maid of Artois.
 * The title role in Beethoven's Fidelio.
 * Romeo in Bellini's I Capuleti e i Montecchi.
 * Gualtiero in Bellini's Il Pirata.
 * Lisa and Amina in Bellini's La Sonnambula.
 * The title role in Bellini's Norma.
 * The Princess of Navarre in Boieldieu's John of Paris.
 * The Student in Chélard's The Student of Jena.
 * Fidalma in Cimarosa's Il Matrimonio Segreto.
 * Adelia in Coccia's La figlia dell'arciere.
 * Adina in Donizetti's L'Elisir d'Amore.
 * The title role in Donizetti's Maria Stuarda.
 * The title role in Persiani's Ines de Castro.
 * The title role in Halévy's Clari.
 * Alma and Felicia in Meyerbeer's Il crociato in Egitto.
 * Zerlina in Mozart's Don Giovanni, opposite her father Manuel García I as the title role, her mother Joaquina Sitches as Donna Elvira, and her brother Manuel García II as Leporello.
 * Susanna in Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro.
 * The title role in Pacini's Irene.
 * Amelia in Rossi's Amelia, ovvero Otto anni di costanza.
 * Rosina in Rossini's The Barber of Seville.
 * Fiorilla in Rossini's Il Turco in Italia.
 * The title role in Rossini's La Cenerentola.
 * Ninetta in Rossini's La Gazza Ladra.
 * Desdemona in Rossini's Otello.
 * The title role in Rossini's Otello, opposite Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient as Desdemona.
 * Arsace and the title role in Rossini's Semiramide.
 * The title role in Rossini's Tancredi.
 * The title role in Vaccaj's Giovanna Grey.
 * Romeo in Vaccaj's Giulietta e Romeo.

Teatro Malibran
She is the patroness of Teatro Malibran in Venice, where her cameo hangs above the stage.

Maria Malibran fund
The Library of the Royal Conservatory of Brussels possesses an important collection of scores, documents and objects from the diva, assembled in the Maria Malibran fund.

Film
Several films depict the life of Maria Malibran:
 * Maria Malibran (1943) directed by Italian director Guido Brignone and starring Moldovan-born Austrian soprano and actress Maria Cebotari.
 * La Malibran (1944) directed by French director Sacha Guitry starring Géori Boué, celebrated singer of the Opéra de Paris.
 * Malibran's Song (1951) a Spanish film directed by Luis Escobar Kirkpatrick
 * The Death of Maria Malibran (1972) directed by German filmmaker Werner Schroeter. It starred Candy Darling.

In other media
In 1982, soprano Joan Sutherland did a recital tour called "Malibran" in order to revive Malibran's memory, singing pages from the singer's favourites in Venice.

The mezzo-soprano Cecilia Bartoli dedicated her 2007 album Maria to the music composed for Malibran and her most famous roles, as well as an extensive tour and DVD concert dedicated to La Malibran. In 2008 Decca released a recording Bellini's La Sonnambula with Cecilia Bartoli in the lead role using many cadenzas that la Malibran herself used and which restored the tessitura of the role to the high mezzo-soprano range (as Giuditta Pasta and Maria Malibran had sung it). In 2013 Decca did it again with Bellini's Norma, casting Bartoli as the title role and Sumi Jo as Adalgisa.

Letitia Elizabeth Landon includes a poetic tribute, in miniature, in The English Bijou Almanack, 1837.

She appears as a character in a poem by William McGonagall.

Mark Twain's daughter Susy Clemens, dying of spinal meningitis, wrote a final delirious prose poem addressed to Malibran, whom she regarded as a kind of patron saint: "Tell her to say God bless the shadows as I bless the light."

title: Maria Malibran


text:
Eleanor of Arborea

Eleanor of Arborea or Eleanor De Serra Bas (Sardinian: Elianora de Arbarée / Elianora De Serra Bas, Italian: Eleonora d'Arborea / Eleonora De Serra Bas; 1347— June 1404) was one of the most powerful and important, and one of the last, judges of the Judicate of Arborea in Sardinia, and Sardinia's most famous heroine. She is also known for updating of the Carta de Logu, promulgated by her father Marianus IV and revisited by her brother Hugh III.

First Years
Eleanor was born in Molins de Rei (Catalonia, Crown of Aragon), around 1347, from Marianus IV De Serra Bas, judge of Arborea, and Timbors of Rocabertí, a catalan noble. Sibling to Hugh and Beatrix of Arborea, she lived her first years in Oristano, at the castle of Goceano. At the heirless death of Peter III of Arborea, the Corona de Logu of the Judgedom (an assembly of notables, prelates, city and village officials), elected Eleanor's father Marianus IV, Peter's brother, who ruled the Judgedom between 1347 and 1376.

Dynastic relations
Before 1376, Eleanor married the forty-year-old Brancaleone Doria, from an influential Genoan house. The marriage was designated to be part of the designed alliance between the houses of Arborea and Doria, the last of which already held lots of possessions on Sardinia in an anti-Aragonese function. After the marriage, she resided in Castelgenovese (modern-day Castelsardo), where she gave birth to her sons Fredrick and Marianus. It now seems certain that in 1382 Eleanor gave a loan of 4,000 gold florins to Nicolò Guarco, doge of the Republic of Genoa, and that the latter for his part undertook to repay the sum within ten years; otherwise, he would have paid double. Accessory the condition was signed that, if in the meantime Fredrick (Eleonor's eldest son) had reached puberty, the daughter of Doge Bianchina would have had to marry him and, in the event that this marriage could not be celebrated (due to death or other fortuitous event), the act would have become null.

A similar loan to a powerful family of Genoa, and this clause of the contract, indicate a dynastic design by Eleonor who, by granting this credit, together kept the prestige of her lineage high and recognized the importance of the interests of the Ligurians. In addition, she laid the foundations for an alliance that would allow her to have recourse to logistical and connection resources (through the powerful Dorian fleet) in most of the Mediterranean ports. In essence, she entered the game of European politics on an equal footing. The murder in 1383 of Marianus IV's son— Eleanor’s brother— Hugh III and his daughter Benedetta immediately posed problems of succession. This sudden and violent death could have various reasons and could benefit various interests. The claimants to the Arborean throne were the children of the late judge's sisters, Beatrix and Eleanor. But Beatrix had died in 1377 and her heir was way too far away. Eleanor, closer and more present than her, worked hard to ensure the election by the Corona de Logu of her very young son. Recent studies, based on a letter from Aimery VI of Narbonne, husband of Beatrix, to King Peter IV of Aragon, in which he claimed the Arborean throne for his son William II, immediately after the death of Hugh III), ascertain that Eleanor was the third child of Marianus and Timbora.

The external reasons for the murder were those of the Aragonese and the enemies of Arborea, the internal ones could be identified in the discontent of the classes of owners and merchants, in reaction to the authoritarian attitude of Hugh III and for the vexatious contributions (necessary to keep the German mercenaries, Provencal and Burgundian).

Succession to the judgedom of Arborea
In this climate of crisis and discontent, with Aragon already openly willing to conquer the entire island, in 1383 Eleanor wrote a report to the king on the conditions of Sardinia and asked him to recognize her son Fredrick as the legitimate successor of Hugh. She then sent her husband Brancaleone to deal directly with the sovereign. At the same time she sent a letter to the queen, asking her to intercede with her spouse in favor of her son so that she could end the disorder that reigned on the island.

Eleanor intended to reunite in the hands of her son those two thirds of Sardinia that Hugh, before his death, had occupied. This design made the aragonese sovereign suspicious, who did not consider it convenient to have such a powerful family in his kingdom, especially since there was no direct male heir to Hugh, those possessions, "iuxta morem italicum", should have been forfeited by the tax authorities. Brancaleone was detained under the pretext of having him return to Sardinia as soon as a fleet was set up, but he had actually become a real hostage (and instrument of pressure against the rebellious judgess). Eleanor did not lose heart and confirmed her war policy: she took action and as soon as she returned to Oristano, she punished the conspirators and proclaimed herself Judgess of Arborea according to the provisions dictated by her grandfather Hugh II, for which women could succeed to the throne in the absence of male heirs. In practice, the elective praxis was the opposite of the royal fiefdom and was at variance with the Aragonese political line. The Arboreas instead recalled their ancient autonomy of early medieval origin and the right to exercise full sovereignty in their territories, a situation often contested or not recognized by the crown of Aragon.

Eleonora was in fact very worried because even her brother-in-law Aimeriy VI de Narbonne (1341-1388), widower of her sister Beatrix, had worked with King Peter IV of Aragon to convince him to recognize his son William I as judge of Arborea (1388 -97).

The reason that the viscount Aymeric brought forward consisted in the decisive fact that his wife, Beatrix, was the second child of Marianus IV and Timbora di Roccaberti, after Hugh III and therefore before Eleanor. Her succession therefore belonged to the Narbonne-de Serra Bas branch, as mentioned and documented above: the fact that she gave her the name of Timbora's mother, Beatrix, is also further proof.

Finally, the Aragonese monarch decided that his nephew Fredrick, eldest son of Eleanor (who would hold the regency) and Brancaleone Doria (whom he imprisoned), would take over from the murdered sovereign of Arborea.

Political life and death
With regard to politics, practices and guidelines of government, the court, therefore, linked directly to the experience of her father, definitively abandoning the authoritarian policy of her brother Hugh III, guaranteed the defense of the sovereignty and territorial boundaries of the judgedom and he carried out a work of reorganization and definitive arrangement of the local legal systems and institutions, revising the Carta de Logu promulgated by her father at the time.

Eleanor never showed the absolutist vision of the lord at the top of an oligarchy and far from the reasons of the people, but rather that of those who believe they have their own legitimacy to reign among the people. For political reasons, the same rights to succession were contested, given the pretext that the Arborea were "bastard" sons, but the dynastic reasons seemed to have less value for her than popular legitimacy and, if anything, would have been valid for that part of the territories received by the king in a personal capacity and not for those who were part of the proper judgedom.

The interests of the Judgess were tied to those of the State with a Gordian knot and it was always her who brought back the law and order to put a stop to the spread of Sardinian violence during the war. The rules, the laws guaranteed peace, that is, in the order in time, for the future.

The control of power was a vital point for Eleanor, the choice between life and death. After having managed to complete her father's project of reuniting almost the whole island under her scepter of ruling judgess, keeping the Aragonese troops in check and driving back to the edge of the island (in some fortresses on the coast), she saw her project collapse following an unpredictable unknown fate: the plague, which practically handed over Sardinia to the Aragonese without fighting. In recent years Eleanor took a little apart from her active politics, leaving it to her husband and her young son Marianus V, who had succeeded his brother Fredrick. According to tradition, the Judgess died around 1404, perhaps of plague, in an unspecified place: even on her grave one can only make assumptions.

The Carta de Logu
One of the most notable actions carried out by Eleanor during her judgedom was the updating of the Carta de Logu, promulgated at the time by her father and revised by her brother, with which she gave a stable and lasting arrangement to the legal systems and institutions of the judgedom. In the Charter there is the openness to modernity of certain norms and the juridical wisdom that contains elements of the Roman-canonical tradition, of the Byzantine one, of Bolognese jurisprudence and of the thought of the glossators of the Catalan curial culture itself, above all of the local juridical elaboration of the Sardinian customs carried out by Sardinian municipal law.

The judges of Arborea, in reacting to the attempts of Aragonese fiefdom, issued a new juridical discipline in their territories, which were nevertheless in a state of perennial political turmoil. This legislation stood out as the component of a broader policy aimed at the development of the arborean judgedom and was clearly more advanced than the other european legal and administrative legislations of the time.

Eleanor demonstrated with her regency that she wanted to get out of the Middle Ages by also focusing on the liberation of the serfs, the lieros, and that she wanted to use those made up of her fellow citizens in her own national-type struggle, in addition to the mercenary troops.

This is the period in which the concept of territorial Sardinia is about to change into a statal one, with the island divided into various sovereign political entities. The four judgedoms of Calari/Saint Illa, Torres/Logudoro, Gallura and Arborea are complex singular institutional constructions. Rather than from pre-existing elements, they seem to originate from the "ability of the Sardinians, free from foreign domination to self-manage" through complex forms such as those of the curatorial system, the assembly administration of the coronas de logu.

The royal judicial prerogatives, which are not found in any continental territory of Byzantine or barbarian formation, have such a connotation as to remove the importance of the matrix of origin and make it an original government organization. Like all central states, the Arborea always had to fight not to succumb to the pressures of neighboring states.

Tributes
The scholar Francesco Cesare Casula identified, in the church of San Gavino Monreale, a few miles from the castle of Monreale in Sardara, the high reliefs representing the only contemporary portraits of Eleanor, Marianus IV, Ugone III and Brancaleone Doria.

There is a statue of Eleanor in the Piazza Eleonora in Oristano.

title: Eleanor of Arborea


text:
Talk:Justine Henin/Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 20:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo Copyright Status
Can anyone verify the copyright for these photographs? - Texture 19:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the image with a more recent one, taken by myself. --Windsok 16:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Your comment from Billie Jean King is incorrect. When Henin was serving at 6-1, 0-0 in the second set of the 2007 US Open final, Mary Carillo asked Billie Jean where in the pantheon of greats does the woman serving stand, and Billie Jean responded, "Wow. Pound for pound, she's the greatest athlete I've ever seen." 69.221.12.251 (talk) 02:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)Bob

Current Ranking/Results/etc. necessary?
I personally think they are unnecessary. It's very hard to keep this kind of sections up-to-date over a long period of time, and ultimately, this is an encyclopaedia article, not a 24/7 current news article. 128.151.226.112 09:32, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

To add to above, recent news and detailed match scores/rankings and other data that will become old within a matter of days can be seen on Justine's home site or WTA site. 128.151.226.112 09:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. When a player is ranked 1st in the world, it's only right for this to be reported. Even if it does change, she's been there for months now. It gives justifiable credibility.

Injury?
Was her retirement really based off of an 'injury'. To me it sounds more like an upset stomach, hardly an injury. Her talk about her shoulder almost seemed like an afterthought. This is bound to be controversial.
 * Well, that's how it was recorded: retirement due to illness/injury. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on fact, not speculation. Noelle De Guzman 09:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you saw that match. Justine Henin looked very unwell before she decided to concede: she lost her balance a few times, was almost unable to serve and went from looking pale to almost green. In my opinion you can't expect an athlete to play a match when feeling really sick, which was obviously the case. Of course it's a pitty for the folks watching, but it would of been a pitty anyway. She was clearly unable to play at a WTA-level, let alone the level of a top 10 player. In the newspapers it was rumoured that her stomach couldn't cope with the large amount of painkillers she took because of her shoulder injury, I cannot prove this, but it would explain why her fitness fell so quickly.DVanDyck 08:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference. What's she did was very unsportsmanlike.
 * That may be, but it isn't Wikipedia editors' place to write their own judgments about her here. No original research, neutral point of view is part of Wikipedia's Five Pillars. I think the language in the article is strong enough to connote that what she did was bad sportsmanship. Noelle De Guzman 00:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

If any player retires from a slam match, I always support the player. There is no way a player will retire from a slam final unless that player is really hurting. The opponent can get injured, or ill, or choke. Edberg retired from the AO in 1990, and Justine apparently was so sick she didn't want to play, but tieed anyway. With her health history, she was obviously very concerned and in pain. Why we should expect a player to put up with several games of intense pain when she has no chance to win the match is beyond me. That's an absurd burden to put on a player. Justine has gutted it out in so many matches, such as the Capriate 2003 USO semifinal, with severe cramps, that I'm certainly satisfied that she was really hurting, and her health is far more important than any odd desire to see a woman play in intense pain for serveral games. Amelie won the match. 69.221.9.247 02:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

Tone, verify
This is a very, very long article with no references given. It is also filled with phrases such as "somehow found the strength...". I'd like to recommend a little less focus on expanding the article's year-by-year analysis and much more focus on writing a less gushing and more verifiable article. Jkelly 20:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Justine Henin-Hardenne
The first paragraph refers to her backhand as "marvellous" without citing a source. POV, perhaps? Eekyeesh 13:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Metric System
For most international athletes currently on Wikipedia, weight and height is in pounds and feet. Changing this to the metric system (with imperial system between brackets) would be more correct comprehensible for most readers. The metric system is after all the international convention whereas feet and inches are only used in the US. Has there been a previous debate about this?
 * Guideline is at Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Piet 10:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph
"Henin-Hardenne is well-remembered for her behaviour in the final of the 2006 Australian Open, when she retired against Amélie Mauresmo while trailing 1-6, 0-2." Inclusion of this at the top summary feels non-NPOV, esp. without a reference. She's won multiple Grand Slam events - the fact she retired in the middle of Aussie Open this year is just one of many things she can be "well-remembered" for. Jxyama 22:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"Recent matches" section
How important is this section really? Before being updated to include her French Open matches, the entries in this section were her Australian Open 2006 final loss. If this section is going to take into account her performance in the Grand Slam, then the performance timeline (not to mention the separate Grand Slam finals section, will provide a more complete account. In such a case, I don't see the importance of listing down in such a section her petty victory or loss in a first or second round of a tournament. Hence, how about removing this section? Joey80 05:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I enjoy this section, and the entire article. There is an error in the score of her USO match against Venus however. She won the tie-break 7-2, not 7-4.70.226.26.137 00:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

Pronunciation
In Belgium, French is one of the main languages.

I wonder if she can pronounce the Hs in her name.

Does the name Hardenne have any link to the Ardennes?

 * French is the native language in the southern half of Belgium, which Henin is from (She only speaks a bit of Dutch). The H's are not pronounced at all in French. I would say the name is not related to the Ardennes, but I'm not sure. Pronunciation however is exactly the same. Piet 10:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation apparently has been done by the same person who did Kim Clijsters'. He sounds as being from Limburg in Flanders, where Kim is also from. Although his pronunciation is perfect Dutch for Clijsters - except for the "r" which officially should be a rolling one but here is a French "r" as it is in the dialect of Limburg - he clearly mispronounces the "h" in "Hardenne"

 * I agree—and the "h" and "e" in "Henin" were equally mispronounced. I have replaced the audio file by a new one, with a pronunciation that should be more authentic. Chtikipedien 08:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence describing the pronunciation as hen plus schwa, as this is not true either in English or her native French. The correct IPA would be 'en' plus epsilon with a til over it - which I have tried dragging from the entry on French pronunciation, but to no avail. Rothorpe 18:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Kim Clijsters links
For some reason, some of the Kim Clijsters links weren't linked to the article about Kim. Edited it.

Marked for Cleanup
I marked this page for cleanup. The grammar is sub-par, the wording is awkward, and there is a lot I think needs to be changed, like all the "found a way to win" and other phrases that make this article sound like it's about a comic book superhero. Henin-Hardenne is probably my favourite tennis player, but this article needs to be more neutral. I will work on this article in the coming weeks when I have time, but I thought I should mark it to encourage others to help. --Muéro 01:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This article has improved quite a bit since it was tagged. How does everyone feel about removing the cleanup tag? --Muéro 02:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

What losing the Wimbledon finals meant?
It doesn't just mean that she didn't claim a career Grand Slam, but a career Golden Slam, a more elite achievement. --Joey80 00:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, she can't claim either if you're going to split hairs. Agrippina Minor 18:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes she can! Hasn't she won 7 of those???? :\ Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 00:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Emphasis on 2006 Australian Open final
If I didn't know anything about Justine Henin, I would read this article and think her most famous for "her controversial doings on the WTA Tour, including her infamous defeat to Amelie Mauresmo in the 2006 Australian Open." This is simply not so. I don't think that mention of that episode is even worth one line of text here, much less a mention in the first paragraph. Mr Frosty 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she came under serious fire for that, it was a major incident in her career. Not even mentioning would seem like trying to make her out to be as good of a person as possible.

The following part uses subjective reasoning and should be removed: "Henin-Hardenne's decision to give up, vaguely citing stomach pain but never fully explaining, was seen as extremely controversial. Henin-Hardenne was criticized because she said after her win against Sharapova in the previous round that she was at the 'peak of her fitness' and was playing the 'best tennis of her life.' She was only the second player, and the first woman, to retire from a Grand Slam final in the Open Era." Regardless of the fact that her retirement was dubious, it's impossible to know what happened. She is the only one who can tell the world if she had pain at that moment and we should give her the benefit of the doubt. What's more, there were no precedents and, in general, she is an introverted but open-minded person who says what she feels.

2001 Federation cup?
Didn't she win the 2001 Federation cup with Belgium? Shouldn't that be noted in the article somewhere?

Infobox picture
I changed the infobox picture back to Image:Justine henin hardenne medibank international 2006.jpg. The picture there before (Image:JustineHenin-Hardenne-6-4-05.jpg) was listed as copyrighted free use, but there wasn't any source info, and it looks like a downsized version of a wire service photo. GrahameS 01:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Olympic games in performance timeline
Why where isn't any line for Olympic Games in that timeline? Are they too insignificant for wta?

Overall win/loss in 2006
Here we have 58-8 while in official her site is stated 56-8? Why the numbers are different? —the preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.238.64.156 (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

In 2006, Henin played 68 matches, this includes 4 Fed Cup matches. Her win/loss is 60-8 including the Fed Cup matches and 56-8 excluding them. I have no idea where the 58-8 comes from. (This can be easily checked on the WTA site)

Family life
I think that the facts about her family life are a bit mixed up, it would be necessary to make a logical order. I wanted to take the paragraph about her mother to the beginning, because in the next paragraph her mother dies, but the story about the Roland Garros is not the best to start her personal life with. The first paragraph also mentions her divorce (and its consequences regarding her family), but the following paragraph is started with the story of her marriage... Something general should be mentioned about her as an introduction, for example something about her childhood. Pumukli

 * I'd say go for it, I agree JH-man 22:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have an alternative version for this section, but it would be better if you checked the grammar before inserting it, because I'm not English.

Justine Henin was born on June 1, 1982. Her father is José Henin, her mother, Françoise Rosière, was a French and history teacher, who died when Justine was 12 years old. She has two brothers (David and Thomas), and a sister (Sarah). She also had an elder sister who died in a car accident before Justine was born.

At the age of 2 her family moved to Rochefort, where their house was situated only a few meters away from the local tennis club where she played tennis for the first time in her life. At the age of six Henin joined Tennis Club Ciney. Her coaches discovered her talent immediately. As a child Henin outclassed the other children in training sessions, and she was very ambitious. Her mother routinely took the young Henin across the border to France to watch the French Open. Henin saw the 1992 final involving her idol Steffi Graf and Monica Seles. Although Graf lost, the experience impressed Henin, who apparently told her mother, "One day I will play here and I will win."

In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death Henin met Carlos Rodriguez, who has become her trainer, and plays an important role in Henin’s life as a second father, all the more so since she was in conflict with her biological father, José Henin.

On November 16, 2002, Henin married Pierre-Yves Hardenne in the Château de Lavaux-Sainte-Anne. She used the name Justine Henin-Hardenne on the tennis court from January 2003 through December 2006. However, on January 4, 2007, just after withdrawing from upcoming tournaments in Australia, including the Australian Open, various news agencies reported that she intended to divorce her husband and assume her maiden name, "Justine Henin." She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband. . She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband. The divorce had positive consequences as well, as Henin made contact again with her close family with whom she had been on bad terms for many years.

What do you think about it? Pumukli 16:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, I'm not English myself! :D It does look better already. There's one sentence that I would split because it's too long. And maybe add a little more detail:

 * "In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death, Henin met her current (2007) and thus far only coach Carlos Rodriguez. Because of a conflict with her biological father, due to different ideas about her tennis career and relationship with Pierre-Yves, Rodriguez soon not only became her trainer but also a second father figure."

 * I would also write "...their house was situated right next to the local tennis club.."

 * I would then also change the final sentence:
 * "The divorce in early 2007, and a serious car accident of her oldest brother, helped to clear the path for Justine to make contact again with her close family (which she communicated very openly in the local press). During the 2007 French Open, her brothers and sisters attended her matches for the first time in her professional career."

 * You also have the second-to-last sentence in double  :)    JH-man 10:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Well then somebody may correct the mistakes later :)

 * I used your suggestions below, I hope its okay now:

Justine Henin was born on June 1, 1982. Her father is José Henin, her mother, Françoise Rosière, was a French and history teacher, who died when Justine was 12 years old. She has two brothers (David and Thomas), and a sister (Sarah). She also had an elder sister who died in a car accident before Justine was born.

At the age of 2 her family moved to Rochefort, where their house was situated right next to the local tennis club where she played tennis for the first time in her life. At the age of six Henin joined Tennis Club Ciney. Her coaches discovered her talent immediately. As a child Henin outclassed the other children in training sessions, and she was very ambitious. Her mother routinely took the young Henin across the border to France to watch the French Open. Henin saw the 1992 final involving her idol Steffi Graf and Monica Seles. Although Graf lost, the experience impressed Henin, who apparently told her mother, "One day I will play here and I will win."

In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death Henin met her current (2007) and thus far only coach Carlos Rodriguez. Because of a conflict with her biological father, due to different ideas about her tennis career and her relationship with Pierre-Yves Hardenne, Rodriguez soon became not only her trainer but also a second father figure.

On November 16, 2002, Henin married Pierre-Yves in the Château de Lavaux-Sainte-Anne. However, on January 4, 2007, Henin withdrew from the upcoming tournaments in Australia, including the Australian Open, due to personal problems. Various news agencies reported that she intended to divorce. She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband and she also assumed her maiden name, Justine Henin instead of Justine Henin-Hardenne. She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband. . Her divorce and a serious car accident of her eldest brother helped to clear the path for Justine to make contact again with her close family (which she communicated very openly in the local press). During the 2007 French Open, her brothers and sisters attended her matches for the first time in her professional career.

 * I put this last version (with some small changes in wordings) into the article. JH-man 10:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Martina Navratilova: "Female version of Roger Federer"
I'm tempted to add the above statement made on the US OPEN 2007 in the commentary booth to "Playing Style". Any counter-arguments or comments? Does anybody know how to cite a statement from such a source? DVanDyck 20:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Justine also has the fastest second serve in tennis by an appreciable margin. I've not compiled the actual averages, but do pay attention to statistics generally in the slams, and she's the only woman who usually averages 90 mph+ on her second serve. 69.214.158.88 03:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

Justine also had the best return game in tennis. When she was playing Safina in the fourth round in the 2007 US Open, Ted Robinson noted that in her three prior matches, Henin had been returned 30 games, and had broken 23 times. In the Safina match, she returned 7 times, and broke all 7 times in a 6-0, 6-2 win, so had broken 30 times in 37 return games. I haven't checked the Serena QF or the Venus semi, but in the final she returned 7 times, breaking 4 times, so had 34 breaks in 44 return games, and broke Serena and Venus at least a few times each. Her return game was astonishing. In the YEC 2007 final game where she broke Sharapova to take the title, she won every point where Sharapova didn't get a first serve in. 69.221.12.251 (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2009 (UTC)Bob

Trivia
The section contained the suggestion that JH recycles batteries, albeit worded in an unusual manner - I would have thought "Henin recycles her used batteries" and a reference would be more appropriate wording. In addition, there's a comment about her eating danettes two at a time, again with no reference. I can't find any reference to any food product with the name of danette.

Therefore I've reverted the anonymous edit that introduced the section.

DMcMPO11AAUK 09:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletes
I deleted some information which I think was a bit too off-topic and made the article lose focus. Please discuss if somebody disagrees JH-man 07:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

2007 WTA Tour Championships and 2007 Zurich Open court surfaces
As per the WTA website (see Henin's activity page), the court surface for these two tournaments was Indoor Carpet, not Indoor Hard. Please take the time to edit the surface win-loss record not just on this page, but on the pages of other players who participated in the events. Thanks. Joey80 (talk) 09:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Notable matches
There's a problem with the make-up of the header and first paragraph here that only seems to appear when the whole page is displayed (all is fine when only that particular section is edited and previewed). Someone more technically knowledgable should take a look... JH-man (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Justine Henin/Archive 1