text:
Talk:Götterdämmerung

Other Translations?
Translations I have heard for the word "Götterdämmerung" include: Explanations for these very different translations can be found on the above Google links. I would love to see a section in the article breaking down these various translations, their accuracies, and their sources. --4.65.244.206 18:02, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * "Dawn of the Gods"
 * "Twilight of the Gods"
 * "Doom of the Gods"

 * Perhaps you should note that Twighlight of the Idols is also occasionally used (particularly appropriate for comparisons with Nietzsche).

 * (Comment by reader: Nietzsche's use of the the title "Twilight of the Idols" was an intentional mocking of Wagner's title, and was understood as such by both at the time. So any use of this translation for the opera is merely a mistake. See Nietzsche's "Nietzsche Contra Wagner" or any into to his "Twilight".  The actual German for Nietzsche's book title is different: Götzen-Dämmerung.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.191.160 (talk) 18:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

 * You're above translation includes opposites "Dawn" and "Dusk" (Twilight). This is appropriate to the German dämmerung which may be either according to the prefix (Morgendämmerung and Abenddämmerung respectively). Wagner clearly intended it as Dusk or Twilight, when one assesses the content of the opera - so I am not sure Dawn of the Gods is appropriate...--OldakQuill 14:05, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

 * As far as the opera is concerned, I've never heard it translated as anything other than "Twilight of the Gods". --Camembert — Preceding undated comment added 14:39, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Final Performance
The final perfomance before the fall of Berlin in WWII by the Berliner Philharmoniker on April 12th 1945 was the finale from Gotterdammerung, as it was felt to be entirely fit for the situation, should this be mentioned in the "Notes" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.210.71 (talk) 21:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Only if it can be verified by a source. Do you have a source for it? --Alexs letterbox 01:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Albert Speer "Inside The Third Reich" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.210.71 (talk) 02:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Then by all means add it, citing that book using Footnotes. --Alexs letterbox 08:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Do we really want to declare Albert Speer a "reliable source"? --OliverH 11:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 * You got something to suggest that he isn't? 74.140.211.161 14:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

A vivid description of this event is to be found in Cornelius's Ryan's epic of the fall of Berlin The Last Battle. The performance of the piece was the signal from the conductor that the orchestra members should abandon the city immediately after the performance was completed.RM Gillespie (talk) 23:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Trivia
I have removed:

At War With The Mystics, the eleventh album by American rock band The Flaming Lips, features a track entitled "Pompeii am Götterdämmerung".

As it appears to have nothing to do with the opera (as well as being irrelevant). --Alexs letterbox 23:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I concur heartily; we don't want trivial pop/rock connections to major operas! --Allansteel 03:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * But at the same time, the title of Friedrich Nietzsche's "Twilight of the Idols" (Götzendämmerung) was an intentional, punning reference to the concept treated by Wagner in this play. Should something about that be included in the article? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

End of the plot
I havent seen it, but from this article i dont get the reason for the death of the gods? --82.131.86.22 13:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

 * As far as I can recall, the fire from the funeral pyre reaches into the sky and basically burns Valhalla and the Gods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.169.98 (talk) 01:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Its complicated. In the prologue, the Norns tell us that Wotan has felled the World Ash Tree, and has piled its timber around Vahalla. Brünnhilde sends ravens to her rock to tell Loge to go to Vahalla. He does, and it burns. The actual process of Vahalla's destruction is of little consequence: we know that the Gods are going to die as early as scene iv of Rheingold. --Alexs letterbox 02:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Here's my $0.02 on this: There is no good reason, plotwise, for the gods to burn! If Hagen had gotten the ring, then it might make sense, but under the circumstances it's totally inconsistent.  The premise is Wotan is doomed because he didn't give the ring back to the river-sprites.  This is why Loge abandons him and considers burning him at the end of DAS RHEINGOLD.  In GDAM Waltraute makes it very clear, and Alberich repeats, that the disaster can be averted by returning the ring to the sprites.  So Brunhilde's doing so, just before immolating, should have saved Wotan.  Why didn't it?  Wagner knew that if the audience left wondering what happened, they'd talk about it longer.  What we now call the "2001-A-Space-Odyssey Principle".  So you mustn't try to be too logical about GDAM and especially don't try to make it fit with the other three chapters.  GDAM was conceived first, and it is dictated by the desire to stage certain scenes from epic poetry--Brunhilde-recognises-ring,-makes-scene, and, Hagen-impales-Siegfried-from-behind--than by the desire to make a bigger point.  Wotan and the superman-redeems-corrupt-outdated-morality stuff and the curse and the ring having magic powers came later.  George Bernard Shaw wrote that for him the Ring Cycle, as a philosophical work, ended at the last chord of SIEGFRIED; GDAM was just a sequence of operatic cliches.  The heroic-friendship-duet, the leader-rallies-followers scene, the dying-tenor-aria, the funeral march, the final soprano-aria, all standard conventions. SingingZombie (talk) 08:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

 * UPDATE: this is similar to Lohengrin. At the end, Lohengrin laments that if only Elsa had let him stay with her for a year before popping the question, then Gottfried would have been disenchanted and restored to leadership.  Having said this, he promptly... disenchants Gottfried and returns him to leadership!  Wagner loved to make the villains win, but he was unable to stomach their victories.  68.173.17.250 (talk) 01:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I'll chip in a penny. My memory of the curse is that Wotan is to return the ring. Having forever to do so, he doesn't and someone else does. Opps. htom (talk) 21:10, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Battle of Berlin?
What does the name "Götterdämmerung" have to do with the Battle of Berlin? The note at the top implies some relationship, but I don't see any information in the other article that would enlighten me. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Removed the "other use" reference. I can't find a valid reason either for that being there.Theshoveljockey (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Gotterdammerung was a late WW2 nazi plan to retreat into the Alpine Fortress with all their loot as a kind of Valhalla copycat, wishing to fight until death the "asiatic barbarian muscovite" and then burn down the last stand on themselves heroically. Thus Hitler and his cohort would had hoped to go down in memory as modern day norse demigods. The rapid advance of Red Army blocked this plan and Hitler was holed up in the Berlin bunker with Wagner playing on the sellec disc as he shot himself.
 * There is no reason to censor this aspect from the article, as this another GD is well known and its absence is very obvious. It is well-known that nazis were enamoured by Wagner's musical treatment of the "nordic aryan" mythology and abused those artistic ideas for propaganda and paganism purposes. 82.144.176.244 (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Marvel Comics
FYI I don't know how to incorporate this into the article, but in Thor (Marvel Comics) a Marvel Comics wrote a short series based loosely on this, the Nibelunglied and the Volsunga in between issues #292-300.MPA 23:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MPA (talk • contribs)

Smear Words
Deleted a short paragraph that worked to defame Wagner's work by claiming Nazi policies were based on it / Norse mythology, which is utterly absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.55.88 (talk) 05:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Brunnhilde's rock
I am watching the Spanish production of this. Why does Siegfried leaves Brunnhilde on the rock? Also,if she is human now, would he have left her there to starve? Luckily she is saved by the fake Gibichung. Myrvin (talk) 11:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Although she is human now, she still has some magical powers--witness the fact that according to her remarks to Hagen she cast spells which protect Siegfried from being harmed in battle (although not from a stab in the back) in spite of not having met him until after her transformation into a human. Presumably these magic powers include the ability to conjure food.  HandsomeMrToad (talk) 00:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Infobox
To treat the four parts of The Ring equally, I added an infobox as an option of project opera, replacing the redundant composer navbox. Kindly leave it in place unless you consider it harmful, and discuss here if it is to stay and how to be improved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * "part of the first Der Ring des Nibelungen" sent me searching for the second part. It's superfluous under the heading "Premiere" – as is the whole box (info? what info?) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I would like to include that it was premiered as part of the first complete performance of the cycle, please word better and change, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the infobox. This major change to the article - which also reflects on the other Ring operas and other Wagner operas - should not have been undertaken singlehandedly without discussion. Some notification to the Wagner and Opera projects would also have been polite, as well as to editors who have worked on the article. Contrary to what Gerda writes above, the composer infobox is not regarded generally as 'redundant', and there is no authority of any sort, as she seems to imply, from the WPOpera project to replace navboxes with infoboxes. Even if the project had expressed such opinion, Gerda knows very well that, by Wikipedia conventions, it does not own opera articles or has any right to issue instructions about them. It ought to operate by seeking consensus; and so should Gerda. --Smerus (talk) 16:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I politely disagree with several of your assumptions. As explained on the arbcom case, I will not seek "permission" - and whose? - before making an edit. I do what I feel is right, you do what you feel right. The redundance is no matter of "regarding", there is nothing in the side navbox which is not repeated in the footer navbox, matter of fact. If you insist to also have the "other" works on top: the infobox has a parameter for that. (I personally think it's nonsense when a footer navbox is there.) Every contributor on Wikipedia has the same authority to make an edit, - I don't understand what you think I "imply", - I said "option" and meant "option". - Let's discuss the merits of the infobox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

As an alternative to the original proposal, here is a version with a picture related to the specific work and a possibility to see the other stage works also, to be refined, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

 * As twiddling with it continues, that infobox is becoming less and less appropriate. I agree with its removal as it is no improvement for this article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Call it "fiddling", I call it thinking about improvement. Showing a place and time of the topic itself at a glance is a service to the readers. To show the other "operas" within the infobox is meant as a compromise, not what I think is the best way, because I don't believe that a reader should navigate away on entering the article. - I was told that using abbreviations in an infobox is not wanted, and I learned. The clever little symbol for discography is not easily recognised, whereas in the footer navbox Richard Wagner - with much more room than on the narrow side - you can clearly spell out "Discographies". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I invite Gerda to explain precisely in what ways she believes the infobox would improve the article, as oppposed to considering ways of improving the infobox itself. In this way we can commence a discussion as to whether or not an infobox is a useful and appropriate item for the article, and in what ways (if any) it may be more appropriate than the template.--Smerus (talk) 20:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I repeat what I just wrote for the case workshop: "An infobox, added by an author other than the principle contributors, possibly adds value to an article, - if not to you personally, perhaps to someone else." Please look again at Infobox vs. side navbox on the project talk and take the general points to this example:

 * "It supplies an image that gets close to the specific work, for example the composer at the time when he wrote it or a scene/stage from the opera" - here I feel right in the action, motivated to read further, - vs. seeing the same template in all stage works by Wagner as if they were all created equal
 * That picture is awful.
 * It could be the composer's portrait, if you prefer and I originally suggested, for a more consistent look. For this work, it shows him at the right age. For Tannhäuser, it doesn't. Gerda Arendt (talk)
 * "It is about the article, not leading the reader away as soon as he enters it", on top of the navigation in the side navbox duplicating information in the more general and more site-consistent footer navbox.
 * And a couple of first links to Gwyneth Jones and Patrice Chéreau are more helpful?
 * They are an offer for those (probably few) who don't know and want to know more, whereas the side navbox' only purpose is to lead away. Quiddity pointed out (repeatedly) the problem of "collapsing" in general. Gerda Arendt (talk)
 * "It supplies a date in templated form that can be used for sort, compare, calculate, and that can be rendered in different forms, cultures and languages - a service beyond the English Wikipedia." A reader who enters the article by chance finds at a glance that the article topic is located in Bayreuth in 1876.
 * This is the English Wikipedia; you may be confusing its purpose with that of Wikidata. As for Bayreuth 1876: I see exactly that when I glance at the 1st paragraph.
 * I confess that I think of some editor in an African language (for example) who could easily create a stub in that language from structured information in an infobox but not from the prose. Gerda Arendt (talk)
 * It supplies other key facts in structured form "at a glance" which is for some readers more accessible than prose", here the festival, the fact that the composer is also the librettist, the fact that it is part of the Ring cycle.
 * See previous point. Accessibility is disputable – some prefer fully formed sentences.
 * Nobody suggests to take the full sentences away. Please see the argument by Sphilbrick for looking up a specific fact more easily in an infobox than the prose. Gerda Arendt (talk)
 * "It is site-consistent". Many more articles have an infobox than a side navbox.
 * Many more opera articles don't. Remember, the question is: how would the infobox improve the article, not that the infobox is not harmful.
 * I think consistency with the rest of Wikipedia is more desirable for the reader than within opera, which is not consistent to start with. Many operas don't have a side navbox. Gerda Arendt (talk)
 * "It can be more attractive". May Wagner forgive me, the drama in the pictured scene speaks much more immediately to me than his ever-repeated portrait. The clear design of the infobox pleases me more than the unaligned boxes in the side navbox, my POV ;)
 * Exactly.
 * "Wikidata will draw information from it". You don't want to hear that, what can I do?
 * No it won't; it works the other way round.
 * This argument is kosboot's. Please explain: what do you think where the information on Wikidata comes from? Someone needs to collect it, or we can supply it, as a service. Gerda Arendt (talk)

 * I had invited above: "Kindly leave it in place unless you consider it harmful". Should I conclude that you found it harmful? If so, please explain why, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Threaded comments by Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, as you know, no editor, not even you, owns an article or can instruct editors not to interfere with their edits. As you appear to refuse my offer to explain and debate your reasons, do you mean by this that you have no arguments to offer in favour of change? If so, then the case is cut and dry, and we can leave things as they are with the template.--Smerus (talk) 21:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I gave you six reasons not to do so above, plus the invitation to kindly consider that even if YOU don't see the advantage of the infobox, it may still exist for others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

 * The reasons are very simple. An infobox should relate to the article in question, not the vehicle to garnish one specific picture on a vast multitude of articles. -- Agathoclea (talk) 05:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda, don't WP:SHOUT; it's 'never appropriate', to quote the WP guideline. That may be helpful to you in the mission to improve articles of yourself and your paretners in your "collaboration resource", as you call it, PumpkinSky, Montantabw and Pigsonthewing. I do not agree that any of the excuses you gave above were evidence-based reasons to install an infobox, and clearly neither does Michael Bednarek, with whose comments I agree. I await evidence based reasons as to why an infobox should be installed here.--Smerus (talk) 07:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I didn't mean to shout, I only wanted to stress one word. - I feel like I am pleading with you as Abraham with God : If there are only 10 readers who profit from the structured information about this article in the infobox, would you deprive them of it? Don't tell me that a single reader profits from the side navbox: information that he can find both by looking up the composer and in the footer navbox, if he really wants to get away from the article he just entered.
 * Or just go by the simple reason mentioned by Agathoclea above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * If there are 10 readers who profit from the link to Wagner's other operas, would you deprive them of that benefit? But in fact we have not the slightest evidence that 10, or nil, or 1 million readers profit or 'benefit' from either - only subjective opinions. Either you have an evidence-based reason for change or you have not. What argues against your proposal is that the material in the infobox is in any case avaialble immediately to its left - and thus noone is deprived of anything by removal of the infobox. I am still awaiting an evidence based reason or reasons. If the only one you can advance is Agathoclea's not liking the picture, I am perfectly amenable to replacing the picture in the template with something appoprriate to the opera. That doesn't require, however, the repetitive and redundant information of the infobox. PS You will be rleeived to learn that I am not God; and Abraham, as you will read in Genesis, was pretty intransigent himself to those whom he conceived of as his enemies - moreover, he did not realise until it was almost too late that angels had visited him.  Best, --Smerus (talk) 11:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * There are no 10 readers deprived from the links to the other Wagner operas, they can have them in the footer navbox and in the "other" parameter of an infobox. They lose nothing! Do we agree that there are merits of the infobox that you don't see and I can't convey to you, but that others see? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * By the same token, our mythical 10 gain nothing from the infobox that repeats the information immediately to its left.--Smerus (talk) 15:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the the wikidata comment above. It is not wikidata that uses template data, it is a number of toolserver (now wmlabs) tools that provide access to raw data based on infoboxes. As far as the picture is concerned, it is not that I don't like the picture, it is that in its present form it is just a remotely connected article garnish which should be replaced with something article related. Agathoclea (talk) 11:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * As stated, I personally am perfectly amenable to the picture on the template being changed. If you propose it, I would be inclined to support it on discussion - though not, perhaps, the present picture on this talk page. I don't know what other editors think. No case has been made here (or anywhere else to my knowledge) as to why Wikidata or wmlabs(whoever they may be) or any outside organisation should have anything to do with the components of an article. Nor has anyone explained why, even should providing metadata for such organisations be thought a priority, an infobox is the only and necessary means of purveying it. As you perhaps know the Wikipedia line is that an infobox is neither required nor out of order; therefore, if any editor proposes to change the status quo of an article (either to remove a template, to add a new infobox, or to remove a long established one) it is appopriate to present an evidence-based case for the change, before it is made, for discussion. So far we are short, here, of any such evidence base, as opposed to beliefs or opinions.--Smerus (talk) 15:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I don't see why you argue as if you have the authority to decide here. The facts were given above, - you don't see them. I don't care which picture. History: there was a long-established template, side navbox, a more general one was added in March, footer navbox, which made the side navbox become redundant. The side navbox is in the position where readers expect an infobox. Why not replace the old navbox with an infobox about this very piece? It could even contain the former links if that is so wished? I don't understand the resistence against something that seems simple logic to me. - I will not ask permission every time I insert an infobox, it's a normal procedure, an edit like others, and who would have the authority to "allow" or not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

No editors should be allowed to thwart Wikipedia's goal of making our content available to as many people as we can reach. We donate our contributions under a free licence that allows anybody to reuse or modify them however they choose for that very reason. Like it or not, we are not writing articles just to be read by highly educated English speakers as if it were on paper - and if some readers (including those who don't have English as a first language) want to see a brief overview of key facts in a standard format, none of us have the right to deny them that. An infobox gives that to this article.

An infobox also provides its information for other users beyond the traditional paper-reading audience by semantically marking up content to make its meaning clearer to anyone using the tools to see that content. That includes the huge range of reusers of our encyclopedia from Google down to individual researchers who may use our information for purposes we have not yet thought of. Those people may be engaged in repackaging, translating or otherwise making our content available to a far wider audience than just the narrow segment that seems to be the preoccupation here. There is no doubt whatsoever that bringing our information to many more users in different forms is an improvement to any article and the ability of an infobox to facilitate that improvement favours its addition. I'd be grateful if any responses would actually address these issues. I don't have a problem with discussing valid reasons why a simple infobox such as the one shown here (add your own image or place it above) disadvantages this article; but I don't intend to be derailed by claptrap about Wikidata coming from those who have no idea about what that project does (although I'll state clearly that it's not a replacement for making the English Wikipedia content more available through semantic markup). --RexxS (talk) 12:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Infobox (again)
Infoboxes should be added after discussion on talkpage. No discussion took place here. I don't think the box very appropriate. Have removed it pending further discussion. I am flagging the issue at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner.--Smerus (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

 * If "no discussion took place here", why is your section header suffixed "again", and just below a long section called ""Infobox" (to which I have now appended it)? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:17, 27 August 2015 (UT

 * Please gain consensus before the info box is removed. The info box has been in place since May with no objections from three legitimate editors who did not remove it while editing the article - implied acceptance. Further, there are editors who have commented on this talk page about their support of an info box. Those supports plus the implied agreement equals a consensus. Please, again, get agreement for removing an info box that has been stable in an article for almost 4 month. Removing it unilaterally is disruptive.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:19, 28 August 2015 (UTC))

Spelling of "ring"
The initial letter of the word "ring" should not be capitalized, unless the word is part of a title, as in "The Ring of the Nibelung", in which case it should also be italicized. If you're referring to the magic ring itself, it should be spelled "ring", not "Ring". I am replacing several incorrect "Ring"s with more correct "ring"s in the synopsis. Goblinshark17 (talk) 07:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Thank you, that makes sense, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 16:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"Stab in the back" myth
I changed the sentence in "Analysis" that states Hagen's stab in the back was inspiration for the he myth that the German Army did not lose World War I, but was instead defeated by a treasonous "stab in the back" from civilians. It stated this as fact, which is obviously unverifiable (and dubiously signficant IMHO). I restate it as a suggestion from John Roberts (historian). However, it's unlikely he was the first to suggest this, so I ask anyone with better knowledge to provide a better citation. Unless this is deemed too trivial to belong in the article. Zaslav (talk) 02:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

File:Max Brückner - Otto Henning - Richard Wagner - Final scene of Götterdämmerung.jpg scheduled for POTD
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:07, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Wagner; Götterdämmerung, Siegfried's Funeral Music & Brunnhilde's Immolation.ogg

title: Talk:Götterdämmerung


text:
Tess Kingham

Teresa Jane Kingham (born 4 May 1963) is a British Labour Party politician. She was Member of Parliament (MP) for Gloucester from 1997 to 2001.

Biography
Kingham was educated at Dartford Grammar School for Girls, and gained a BA from Royal Holloway, University of London, a PGCE from the University of East Anglia and a master's degree in Egyptian Archaeology from University College London. She is currently studying for a PhD in Biological Anthropology at the University of Kent.

Political career
She ran as the Labour candidate for the European Parliament seat of the Cotswolds in 1994, but lost to the long-serving Conservative incumbent MEP, Henry Plumb, however she succeeded in cutting Plumb's majority from 45,678 in 1989 to just 4,268 at that election.

Kingham was elected as MP for Gloucester in 1997, but retired from Parliament in disillusionment after just one term, having complained publicly about the antiquated ways of working in the Palace of Westminster. She later expressed dissatisfaction with the old boys network in the House of Commons, accusing various members of "endlessly thrusting their groins around the Chamber in mock combat" and "indulging in yah-boo nonsense, point-scoring and silly games". Whilst in Parliament, Kingham successfully campaigned to change laws to protect firefighters and to get a nationwide cystic fibrosis screening programme for newborn babies. She was a Member of the International Development Select Committee.

Private life
Kingham is married to Mark Luetchford, a civil servant, trustee of War on Want and author of "Waging the War on Want", the official history of the organisation. They have three children.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Tess Kingham


text:
Wikipedia talk:Selected anniversaries/July 5

 * 1687 - Isaac Newton's volume no. 1 of his Principia Mathematica is published for the first time.

2012 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 21:06, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Rescued from Ineligible (unused): Battle of Osan (was TFA last year)
 * Omitted: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (ineligible—maintenance); Spam; Bikini; The Late Late Show; Indonesian presidential election, 2004; July 2009 Ürümqi riots
 * Included: Olive Branch Petition (first appearance); BBC News (first appearance); Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (4th appearance, last in 2006; rescued from Ineligible); Black Tigers (first appearance); Oliver North (3rd appearance, last in 2005)

2013 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 06:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Olive Branch Petition (ineligible—maintenance); BBC News; Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq; Black Tigers (ineligible—maintenance); Oliver North
 * Included: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (8th appearance, last in 2011); Spam (4th appearance, last in 2011); Battle of Osan (first appearance); 2006 North Korean missile test (2nd appearance, last in 2010); July 2009 Ürümqi riots (2nd appearance, last in 2011)

2014 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 08:08, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Moved to Ineligible: BBC News (date not verified)
 * New articles (unused): Talyllyn Railway (also appears on May 14); The Shard
 * Omitted: Battle of Osan; 2006 North Korean missile test; July 2009 Ürümqi riots
 * Included: Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (5th appearance, last in 2012); Oliver North (4th anniversary, last in 2012; 25th anniversary); Indonesian presidential election, 2004 (6th appearance, last in 2011; 10th anniversary)
 * Repeats: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (2nd consecutive appearance, 9 total); Spam (food) (2nd consecutive appearance, 5 total)
 * Although the claim that the Talyllyn was the first Narrow Gauge railway in Britain to carry passengers is sourced in the article, I'd like to confirm exactly what the sources say for that as the Ffestiniog Railway probably has a better claim. I've therefore removed it for this year, and when I get a chance to look at the references (not for a couple of weeks) I'll update the hook in time for next year's 150th anniversary. Optimist on the run (talk) 22:32, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

2015 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 07:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Moved to Ineligible: The Late Late Show (maintenance)
 * Rescued from Ineligible (unused): Staffordshire Hoard
 * Omitted: Venezuela (ineligible—maintenance); Spam (food) (ineligible—maintenance); Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq; Oliver North; Indonesian presidential election, 2004
 * Included: Talyllyn Railway (2nd appearance, last in 2011; 150th anniversary); Bikini (4th appearance, last in 2011); Björn Borg (first appearance); July 2009 Ürümqi riots (3rd appearance, last in 2013)
 * Repeats: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (3rd consecutive appearance; 10 total)

2016 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 07:19, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Rescued from Ineligible (unused): Law of Return
 * Moved to Ineligible: Oliver North (maintenance)
 * Omitted: Saints Cyril and Methodius (ineligible—maintenance); Björn Borg; July 2009 Ürümqi riots; Talyllyn Railway (pulled for space reasons)
 * Included: Venezuela (rescued from Ineligible); Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (6th appearance, last in 2014); 2006 North Korean missile test (3rd appearance, last in 2013; 10th anniversary)
 * Repeats: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (4th consecutive appearance, 11 total); Bikini (2nd consecutive appearance, 5 total; 70th anniversary)

2017 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 19:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Moved to Ineligible: Law of Return (maintenance); Björn Borg (maintenance)
 * Omitted: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica; Bikini; 2006 North Korean missile test
 * Included: Olive Branch Petition (2nd appearance, last in 2012); Talyllyn Railway (3rd appearance, last in 2015); Battle of Osan (2nd appearance, last in 2013); Indonesian presidential election, 2004 (7th appearance, last in 2014); Nicéphore Niépce (first appearance); Sophie Wyss (first appearance); Megan Rapinoe (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (2nd consecutive appearance, 7 total)

2018 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 16:37, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Talyllyn Railway; Battle of Osan; Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (ineligible—maintenance); Indonesian presidential election, 2004; Nicéphore Niépce; Sophie Wyss; Megan Rapinoe
 * Included: Campaign of Danture (3rd appearance, last in 2017; normally appears on October 9); Spam (food) (6th appearance, last in 2014; rescued from Ineligible); National Health Service (first appearance; 70th anniversary); The Shard (2nd appearance, last in 2018; also appeared on February 1 – should be deleted from this page because there are a lot of 21st century events already); Sarah Siddons (first appearance); W. T. Stead (first appearance); Albrecht Kossel (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Olive Branch Petition (2nd consecutive appearance, 3 total)

2019 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 20:01, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Olive Branch Petition; Spam (food); National Health Service; The Shard (ineligible—maintenance); Sarah Siddons; W. T. Stead; Albrecht Kossel
 * Included: Talyllyn Railway (4th appearance, last in 2017); 1934 West Coast waterfront strike (first appearance); The Stones in the Park (first appearance; 50th anniversary); July 2009 Ürümqi riots (4th appearance, last in 2015; 10th anniversary); Nicéphore Niépce (2nd appearance, last in 2017); John Curtin (first appearance); Megan Rapinoe (2nd appearance, last in 2017)
 * Repeats: Campaign of Danture (2nd consecutive appearance, 4 total; this should be deleted next year)

2020 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 18:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Deleted: The Late Late Show (Irish talk show) (appears on July 6)
 * Rescued from Ineligible (unused): Oliver North
 * New articles (unused): Battle of Cape St. Vincent (1833)
 * Omitted: Talyllyn Railway; 1934 West Coast waterfront strike; The Stones in the Park; July 2009 Ürümqi riots; Nicéphore Niépce; Megan Rapinoe (ineligible—maintenance)
 * Included: Olive Branch Petition (4th appearance, last in 2018); Thomas Cook (first appearance); Battle of Osan (3rd appearance, last in 2017; 70th anniversary); Joan of the Tower (first appearance); Sylvester Graham (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Campaign of Danture (3rd consecutive appearance, 5 total; apparently I didn't see my note about how this should have been deleted); John Curtin (2nd consecutive appearance, 2 total; 75th anniversary)

2021 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 07:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Moved to Ineligible: Battle of Cape St. Vincent (1833) (maintenance)
 * Omitted: Campaign of Danture (deleted per above); Olive Branch Petition; Battle of Osan; Sylvester Graham; John Curtin
 * Included: Battle of Chippawa (first appearance); Bikini (6th appearance, last in 2016; 75th anniversary); That's All Right (first appearance); 2006 North Korean missile test (4th appearance, last in 2016); Wanda Landowska (first appearance); Porfirio Rubirosa (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Thomas Cook (2nd consecutive appearance, 2 total); Joan of the Tower (2nd consecutive appearance, 2 total; 700th birthday)

2022
I've added the new article Fifth of July (New York) on a historic African American celebration, if that might be approproate. Pharos (talk) 23:49, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, where are these entries discussed before being posted? Or does howcheng unilaterally decide? I have some complaints to make about the writing of today's events, and some complaints about item selection in general lately. @Pharos, seems appropriate to me, thank you for adding! QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

2022 notes

 * New articles (unused): 1973 Rwandan coup d'état
 * Omitted: Battle of Chippawa; Bikini; That's All Right; 2006 North Korean missile test; Joan of the Tower; Wanda Landowska; Porfirio Rubirosa
 * Included: Fifth of July (New York) (first appearance); What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July? (first appearance); Spam (food) (7th appearance, last in 2018); Battle of Osan (4th appearance, last in 2020); The Shard (3rd appearance, last in 2018, 3 total; 40th anniversary; rescued from Ineligible); Nicéphore Niépce (3rd appearance, last in 2019); Sophie Wyss (2nd appearance, last in 2017; 125th birthday); Kenneth Lay (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Thomas Cook (3rd consecutive appearance; 3 total)

Suggestion
Hello,

I'd like to suggest this article to appear on 5 July: Copacabana Fort revolt.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to suggest it, but I think the article meets all the criteria. Torimem (talk) 01:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Please be WP:BOLD and add it yourself! If anything is concerning about the entry, one of the regular SA contributors will check in on it. The article looks good to be featured on OTD.  Heart  (talk) 05:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * But where exactly do I include it? Is it on the list at the bottom of the page? Torimem (talk) 11:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


text:
Talk:University of Idaho

43 Education and the University of Phoenix deal
I suggest that we add a section on 43 Education and the University of Phoenix deal. This deal, initiated by the University of Idaho President C. Scott Green, may have a profound effect on the future of the University of Idaho. https://www.idahoednews.org/top-news/the-685-million-university-of-phoenix-purchase-a-study-guide/ Collegemeltdown2 (talk) 17:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement
here are some suggestions for stuff I propose deleting: Melchior2006 (talk) 18:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Administration Building: this section is strangely long and overly detailed. Let's reduce to the most important information.
 * "Hello Walk is still used, but the hellos that used to be mandatory are now not often vocalized" -- delete.
 * ASUI-Kibbie Activity Center: Very little encyclo relevance.
 * Student Recreation Center: Is this important?
 * Transportation: Seems like a promotional catalogue...
 * Athletics: I really like the way this is farmed out to another article. We should do that more often in higher ed article. --

 * I'll take that as: "We agree, go ahead!" -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:University of Idaho


text:
Norman Godman

Norman Anthony Godman (19 April 1937 – 20 June 2018) was a Scottish Labour Party politician.

Early life
Godman was one of nine children born to a trawler skipper man and a mother who worked in fish processing. After leaving Westbourne Street Boys' School at 15, he worked as a shipwright before undertaking night classes and eventually graduating from Hull and Heriot-Watt Universities with a PhD and undertaking an academic career in Scotland.

He served in the Royal Military Police during his National Service.

Parliamentary career
Godman first stood for election to the House of Commons at the 1979 general election when he contested Aberdeen South, but lost to the Conservative incumbent Iain Sproat by 772 votes.

He served as Member of Parliament for Greenock and Port Glasgow from 1983 to 1997, and for Greenock and Inverclyde from 1997 to 2001. From 1988 to 1989, he served as Opposition spokesman for Agricultural and Rural Affairs.

Renowned for his humility and integrity, he was a champion of the shipbuilding industry, particularly the Scott Lythgow yard on the lower Clyde. He was tenacious in his support for fishing communities and he took a lifelong interest in Irish affairs. On Northern Ireland, he championed an inquiry into Bloody Sunday and privately lobbied Tony Blair for Lord Cullen to chair an inquiry.

Godman served on the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee (1983–87), the European Legislation Committee (1989–95), the Northern Ireland Committee for a year and the Foreign Affairs Committee (1997-2001).

Bernard Ponsonby, the long-serving political editor of Scottish Television, described Godman as a "warm, gentle and empathetic man" whose career was characterised by "a special kind of integrity". ”An old-fashioned socialist whose values were marked by a belief in social justice and world peace, he argued for his values with a consistency which always made him a prisoner of his own conscience. He never sought moral high grounds or to ever promote himself above his values. "He was humble, hard-working, sought to do right by those who needed his advocacy. "He was a model public servant who gave Parliament his hard work, his party his loyalty – when he thought it merited – and he always gave the country his best judgement".

"His beliefs were incorruptible and he was incapable of bending or fashioning a view in order to get on. He had no time for spin, even less for apparatchiks who debased Labour values by wheeling and dealing". Ponsonby cited Godman's stand on abortion rights as an example of how he was willing to put his principles over his self-advancement, noting that he at one stage faced serious pressure from Catholic opponents who threatened his pre-selection over the issue. "He displayed a moral courage in seeing down those in his local party who saw his support for a woman’s right to choose as a ground for cutting short his Parliamentary career. He would gladly have it cut short than to do or say something that cast him as a hypocrite".

Family
His wife was Trish Godman, who was the Member of the Scottish Parliament (MSP) for West Renfrewshire constituency from the 1999 Scottish Parliament election until her retirement in 2011.

title: Norman Godman


text:
User talk:Evanluxzenburg

p.s. If you have any question, then do sign it with your signature and timestamp (that is the second button on the edit page from the left), so I can find who you are and come back to you! I had some brilliant political student asking me a question on the former User talk page, who forgot to leave his details (name or name of the project he refered to, which sounded interesting), that makes it rather impossible to help! So.... don't forget!

My Person
For anything you want to comment to or about me personally, add it here, nice and bitchy stuff I am ok with it!

Geography
This means for me Human Geography contrary to Physical Geography, let alone Geology, which are both soil staring and digging studies. A Human Geographer looks how people screw up this world in several ways! Any questions about that, can be asked and added here!

the Netherlands
That is my country of birth with which I have a love-hate relationship. I love it's perceived culture of liberalism (even more liberal than the USA) and tolerance, however at the same time I dispice it's xenophobic racism which is now even victimising me. Wasn't it for the fact that I can't be victimised, as I just ignore it! However the reality is, being a Muslim in the Netherlands can bring difficulties in getting or keeping a job or being active in politics. I choose for a tolerant Netherlands, as hard as I choose for the Netherlands over Holland.... see for an explanation the naming conventions of the Netherlands!

Other
Anything which you think can't be catched by above chapters, leave it here or create your own chapter here! In all cases don't forget to read my user page for an introduction on me! Because it makes lame comments without knowing who I am!

Hello
I have been reading an old comment left by you on a discussion about Jerusalem and I wanted to drop a few lines.

Here are some advices I wanted to give you: Do not sign your comments when you want to offend or hurt people, this leads to comments like this one on your user page :-) Don't be ashamed of your real religion and don't lie, nobody is judging you behind their screens. Even if you have a grin against Islam, it is OK, you can have a respectful discussion. Why did you remove some useful informations from your profile (Aug 16th change)? J/K

On Arab weakness, yes we are actually weak for losing wars against Israel. I am not sure Netherlands would have done a lot better when fighting against a US-backed enemy. I am not sure all European countries together and united would have done a lot better. BUT, Keep in mind that history did not begin in 1948 and that the book is still being written, the last war with "the terrorist organization" of Hizbullah LOL tells you something about the future.

Anyways!!! I hope I am not bothering, I just had to say it. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.191.233.202 (talk) 02:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice, unfortunately you misinterpet my words. It wa never meant to offend people. For your information, I am a close friend of many muslims and have studied Islam as you might have read. I removed information for personal reasons and not as I am ashamed for anything. As you state yourself: signing my text invites people to post remarks like you do. And I am open to dialog...

My post wasn't meant to insult Arab on their weakness, my own country will also lose a war against Israel as you state correctly. Difference is: my country does not fight Israel as we have no issue with them. So my point was no insult, it was more an advice: beter spare your resources and buildt your strength than to fight a war of terror which is difficult to win. From the Netherlands you'll win such a war as we won't strike back with vengeance. Israel has no difficulty in dropping an A-bomb on the Arab world if they seem necessary, nor in killing endless Arabs. In that light I made my point... and no other.

so thanks for stopping by, pitty you hide yourself so I can't reply to you nor know if you read this! I'm not on this page often so I missed this message... --Erik van Luxzenburg 11:46, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Evanluxzenburg


text:
Gramsbergen

Gramsbergen (Dutch Low Saxon: Grambarge) is a small Dutch city on the Vechte, located in the municipality of Hardenberg and the province of Overijssel. The town is located on corridors of different transportation modes: The N34 (Zwolle - Emmen), the Zwolle - Emmen railway and the Almelo - de Haandrik canal.

History
Gramsbergen and its hamlets have been inhabited since pre-historic times. In the 'Cultuur Historisch Informatie Centrum Vechtdal' (The Historical and Cultural Center of Vechtdal), in the centre of Gramsbergen, several archaeological artefacts are exhibited. These artefacts come from settlements from around 8000 BC.

It was first mentioned in 1227 as Bergene, and means "the hill of Gram (person)". It received city rights in 1442.

Gramsbergen developed on higher ground along the Vechte. In 1227, the Battle of Ane was fought to the west of Gramsbergen during which the bishop of Utrecht was defeated by the citizens of Drenthe. In 1339, Huis Gramsbergen, a havezate, was built which developed into a castle. In 1673, it was taken by the Prince-Bishopric of Münster. The castle was destroyed in 1674 by the Dutch States Army to prevent Münster from threatening Coevorden. The city did not develop in its later history and remained relatively small. In 1840, it was home to 526 people.

As an independent municipality, Gramsbergen comprised the centres of Gramsbergen and De Krim and the hamlets Ane, Anerveen, Anevelde, Den Velde, Holtheme Holthone, and Loozen. Since 1 January 2001, Gramsbergen has been part of Hardenberg.

Transportation
Railway Station: Gramsbergen

Notable citizens

 * Henk Bodewitz (born 1939), Sanskrit scholar and professor
 * Erik Hulzebosch (born 1970), marathon speed skater, inline speed skater and part-time singer and blogger
 * Albert Timmer (born 1985), professional road bicycle racer

title: Gramsbergen


text:
Talk:German-language literature

Comment
The links are mostly to nonexistant subpages. (Which we don't use anymore). I need help finding existing and non-existing targets for the links. — Sverdrup 18:07, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Took out broken links. --Michaeltaft 17:45, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Created a very basic and somewhat flawed introduction and summary, mainly by stealing the English Literature intro. Still needs links, a good edit, etc. --Michaeltaft 17:54, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This article distinguishes between "Germany proper" and Austria. German literature existed before the German unification in the 19th century. Austrians then were sometimes called Germans just as were those in the various German states north of Austria. Can one speak of any "Germany proper" that excluded Austria before that time? Michael Hardy 02:40, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Not to mention that much German literature was produced in what's now Poland and Russia... --Delirium 08:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It's very touchy topic. Austria has a long history of academics to write their very own national literature mythology striving to create a brand of nationalism seperate from the German one. Instead of Büchner's plays, the pupils are fed with Schnitzler's etc. etc. They also send formal complaints whenever the big neighbour's academy addresses Austrian authors as German or includes them in their school curriculum. It defies logic, it's about modern post-ww2 politics. 79.216.210.248 (talk) 07:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Otto Dix is a painter! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.29.118 (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Useless
I find this page as it stand to be useless; it is mainly a list of names with no explanations about how they relate to each other, to literature, or to the rest of the world. The lists are mere starting points containing highlights that have to be filled in; until they are, the page will contain little relavant information. Applechair (talk) 06:59, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

National Socialist Literature
The section needs to be expanded. Badly. It'd make sense to include at least some of the Goethe Prize bearers from the epoch. To my best knowledge the most prolific authors were the novelist Wilhelm Schäfer, the dramatist Hanns Johst or the poets Isolde Kurz and Agnes Miegel.79.216.210.248 (talk) 07:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Romanticism
It is important to note that while Heinrich Heine lived and wrote during this period, he most certainly was not a romantic. To interpret his poetry as romantic is to misread it entirely. A mistake on this level is tantamount to mistaking Mozart for a Baroque artist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.54.115.43 (talk) 03:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Horrible
Wow, this is one of the worst articles for an important a topic as this as I've ever seen. Genuinely awful. john k (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:German-language literature


text:
Overlanders

Overlander or Overlanders may refer to:

 * An Australian name for a drover who herds large mobs of sheep or cattle over long distances, to a market or rail head, or to open up new grazing territory
 * Overlander (train) was a rail service that operated between the cities of Wellington and Auckland, New Zealand
 * Overlander, Western Australia, a location in Australia
 * Overlanders, Edmonton, a residential neighbourhood in the Hermitage area of northeast Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
 * The Overlanders (film), a 1946 movie about Australian drovers herding cattle across the Australian outback during World War II
 * The Overlanders (band), the name of a British 1960s music group
 * Overlander Mountain, in Mount Robson Provincial Park, Canada
 * Gregor the Overlander, the first book of the Underland Chronicles by Suzanne Collins
 * A human-like species in the Archie Comics series Sonic the Hedgehog

title: Overlanders


text:
Talk:List of duels

Untitled
A bit more detail on the Mexican duel would be nice. also I don't really think the Bruce Lee thing counts. Was it a fight to the death?

This article overlooks German duels, both real (exceptional in their lethality) and fictional (The Magic Mountain). A good resource for this would be the book "Dueling: the Cult of Honor in fin-de-siécle Germany" by Kevin McAleer.

The page listing famous duels contains

1609: Sir George Wharton and Sir James Stuart; The Illustrated London News July 28, 1888 states "Two of his (James I) courtiers, Sir George Wharton and Sir James Stuart, in November, 1609, fought at Canonbury, Islington, and killed each other.

The Illustrated London News July 28, 1888 states "Two of his (James I) courtiers, Sir George Wharton and Sir James Stuart, in November, 1609, fought at Canonbury, Islington, and killed each other.

Extract from book: Walks through Islington: Thomas Cromwell

"Sir George Wharton, sonne of Lord Wharton, was buried the 10 of November, 1609. James Steward (sic), Esq. godsonne to King James, was buried the 10th of November, 1609." These two persons (the latter of whom was eldest son of Walter, first Lord Blantyre, Lord Treasurer of Scotland) were servants to King James I. Some reproachful words having passed betwixt them, and being inflamed with a desire of revenge, they fought a duel near Islington, wherein they killed each other. The King expressed much sorrow for their fate, and ordered both to be buried in one grave. There was published at the period, "A lamentable Ballad of a Combate fought near London between Sr James Steward and Sr George Wharton, Knights, who were both slaine at that time: tune, Down Plumpton Park." The letters following passed between these desperadoes, prior to the fatal event:— "Mr. George Wharton's Challenge to Sir James Stewart before they fought: "Sir" "Your misconstruing of my message gives me cause to think you extreme vaine glorious a humour why valiant detests. And whereas you unjustly said I durst not meet you in the field to fight with you, you shall find  you are much mistaken. For I will fight wth ye with what weapon you shall appoint, and meet you where you will, being contented to give you this advantage, not valuing ye worst you can doe. "George Wharton."

"Sir James Stewart's Answere: "Sir, "Your message being eyther ill delyvered, or else not accepted, you have since, though ill-advised, retracted and repented it; for your messenger willed me from you, that eyther of us should make choyce of a friend to debate ye matter. To which, I confesse. I did but lightly hearken, since I knew oddes which no breath could make even. And now you have to acknowledge noe other speeches than you charged me with, which is, that I said you durst not meet me in ye field to fight.

True it is, your barbarous and uncivil insolency in such a place, and before such a company (for whose respect I am only sorry for what I then did or said), made me doe and say y' w* I now will make good. Wherein since you finde yourself behind, I am ready to doe you all the right you can expect; and to that end have I sent you the length of my rapyer, which I will use, with a dagger, and soe meet you at ye further end of Islington (as I understande nearer you than me) at three of the clock in ye afternoon; w* things I scorne to take as advantages, but as my due, and w** I have made indifferent And in respect I cannot send any of my friendes without hazard of discovery, I have sent my servant herewith, who is onely acquainted with this business". James Stuarte V

Source:Extract from book: Walks through Islington: Thomas Cromwell

Baldick, Robert The Duel (Hamlyn Publishing 1970 edition) p. 65 mentions it but strongly implies that the duel took place in London, he says "both duellists were, according to the Islington register buried on 10 November 1609" and other web site lists the duel as taking place 8 November. Does somebody know where the placing the duel in the Netherlands comes from? It would make it a duel fought by an Englishman (Stewart was a Scot) not an English duel. Also Baldick names him as James Stewart Esq not Sir James Stewart. Although the London News also refers to him as Sir James.

Hi. I can't remember what was the original source for this. But it looks like either that source or myself may have mixed up two duels. If you look at http://www.hadesign.co.uk/SRS/Duel.htm which contains that Illustrated London News article it has In 1613, Lord Bruce was killed in a duel at Bergen-op- Zoom by Edward Sackville, Earl of Dorset.. Mintguy (T) 14:09, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've fixed this now. BTW please feel free to make any additions/corrections to the aritcle. Mintguy (T) 14:31, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Expansion
A duel isn't always to the death, nor is it always personal.

Military duels, ya'kno, where they appoint a champion to represent each other, need better representation. Even boxing matches could qualify if done outside of the sanction of the sport.

I'd really like to see more about other country's famous duels. Unfortunately I don't have to time to look them up :( otherwise I would. I just wanted to encourage everyone to think more broadly.

--Duemellon 13:34, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Fictional Duel Update
Sorry, I had to get all geeky on ya', but I had to add Star Wars duels.

The reason why I didn't include some of them was that some were just encounters, not necessarily something recognized as an arranged fight, or one that intentionally had no interference. Jango Fett v. Windu would not qualify as they were embroiled in a surrounding conflict. The Kenobi, Anakin, Yoda, & Dooku might be a stretch as it was not particularly arranged. Kenobi v. Vader was not arranged, but because other people around them let it happen it qualifies as a duel IMO. --Duemellon 13:53, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't think those items belong in here. A duel is a pre-arranged fight with established rules, contested over a matter of honour it is not just a punch-up with swords (or in this case light sabres). Mintguy (T) 14:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The question then is the formality of the rules. There are obviously a set of understood & implied rules when they engage each other and that's why the scene where Windu & Jango fight isn't a duel but The fight between Vader & Kenobi has rules. That is demonstrated b/c the troopers & Luke don't interfere. Another example of implied/understood rules are "champion duels" where rival armies send up a particular person to represent their interests. Usually the rules are minimal, a simple: Kill the other guy by yourself, but it is a duel. The complexity of the rules don't make it a duel. As for it being pre-arranged, duels were often impulsive & impromptu. --Duemellon 15:47, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Meelar for tPB duels. I expanded the details to match the details pre-existant in the 3 Musktr's stuff.

I removed two links to 'The Duel' (in the 'Duels in Fiction' section) because that page doesn't discuss either of the books entitled 'The Duel' DELutz 01:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the duel from Dostoyevsky's The Devils.

Star Wars
I wish people would understand the difference between a duel with swords or pistols and nominated seconds, foughtwith rules over a matter of honour etc.. and a plain old fashioned Swordfight. I have removed Star Wars entries yet again. Jooler 11:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Blackbeard not a duel.
I removed the following text, because it does not describe a duel in any real sense: it was not a duel of honor, nor a judicial duel, nor even a contest of champions in lieu of battle. Rather, it describes a single combat by happenstance in the middle of battle. Assuming, of course, that the account is not romanticized, as such accounts often were. Robert A.West (Talk) 03:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * 1718: Blackbeard and Robert Maynard; Governor Alexander Spotswood of the colony of Virginia gave Lieutenant Maynard of the Royal Navy the command of two sloops with the mission of eliminating the pirate Edward Teach, AKA Blackbeard. Maynard finally caught up with Blackbeard at Ocracoke Inlet off the coast of North Carolina on November 21, 1718. Blackbeard struck first, firing a cannon and killing several of Maynard's sailors. However, Maynard struck back by hiding many of the surviving crew belowdecks, making Blackbeard think he had wrought more damage than he actually had. When Blackbeard boarded Maynard's ship, he was ambushed. During the battle, Maynard and Blackbeard ended up in a duel. Blackbeard fought extremely hard, taking 20 cutlass wounds and five pistol shots before he finally fell. Maynard beheaded Blackbeard, tied the head to the prow of his ship, and set sail for Virginia.

Robert A.West (Talk) 03:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The information on the Russian Duels for 1823 is in error. Alexander Pushkin's duel with George d'Anthes occurred in 1837. Pushkin died of his wounds 2 days later. On September 10, 1825, a duel occurred between Alexander I's aide-de-camp Vladimir Novosil'tsev and Konstantin Chernov (a Decembrist) in which both were mortally wounded. Kondraty L. Ryleyev (also a Decembrist) was K. Chernov's second. In 1992 a monument was erected on the site of this duel. After reading the information posted originally for this article, I felt compelled to first research and then correct the site because I knew that Pushkin's "Eugene Onegin" was printed in serial form from 1823 through 1831. A first complete edition was printed in 1833 and the final official version was first printed in 1836. I also knew that Kondraty Ryleyev was hung twice; once on July 24th, 1826 when the rope broke, and again the next day, July 25th 1826 for his role as one of the leaders of the Decembrists. Carokhan 02:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Last Duel in England
The last duel in England was fought in a field near Englefield Green in Surrey. The post mortem was held in the Barley Mow Pub and the loser is buried in St John The Baptist Churchyard in Egham nearby. The duel involved French Republicans and was in 1852. The seconds but if I remember rightly but not the winner were brought to trial at the Old Bailey. See Surrey Murders by John Janaway ISBN-10: 1853060178. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.153.28.221 (talk) 02:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Uwe Boll
There was a boxing duel between Uwe Boll and film critics, maybe it is worth mentioning?

Uwe_boll

Removed some of the Harry Potter references
I don't think it's appropriate to describe the encounters between Harry Potter and Voldemort as duels. They're life-and-death struggles, certainly, but are not formal encounters with set rules of conduct. It's catch-as-catch-can, only limited by the fundamental laws of magic. I've removed references to those. --Tony Sidaway 14:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with the above, with one exception - in the penultimate chapter of "Deathly Hallows", when Voldemort believes he has killed Harry. This encounter would seem to meet the discussed definition of a dual. One person calls out another, who is free to accept or decline. A specific place and time is chosen for the encounter. Rules are in place (Voldemort orders that no one other than himself and Harry is to participate). That Harry had decided not to fight back doesn't seem to be a mitigating factor. --Art Carnage 06:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire has many duels within its pages. Is it OK with everyone if they're added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.254.149 (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Abraham Lincoln
I have noticed some obvious inconsitencies between this article and the article James Shields, regarding Shields's "duel" with Lincoln. This might not be unique within this article, which could suggest references given here are not good enough... By the way, if indeed some of the details here are not reasonably accredited, I seriously doubt whether they should be on a proper encyclopedia. 129.67.38.26 (talk) 20:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Pier Gerlofs Donia
I hereby inform y'all of the additions I made to the section "Proposed duals" including Lord Donia who challenged many people to a dual, challenges to which noyone responded, but still, enough to add him. -The Bold Guy- (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

covered in pictures or film?
Are there any duels that have been filmed or taken on picture?--92.228.15.234 (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

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Dueling code in Mark Twain’s “Puddin’head Wilson”
See Chapter 12, “The Shame of Judge Driscoll,” and parts of following chapters pertaining to the judge and Count Luigi Capello.

Twain beautifully paints the culture and framework of dueling, being all about family honor among “gentlemen.” 2600:1008:B141:1FD9:3193:AE05:9556:296E (talk) 19:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of duels


text:
Georges Couthon

Georges Auguste Couthon (, 22 December 1755 – 28 July 1794) was a French politician and lawyer known for his service as a deputy in the Legislative Assembly during the French Revolution. Couthon was elected to the Committee of Public Safety on 30 May 1793. Along with his close associate Louis Antoine de Saint-Just and Maximilien Robespierre, he formed an unofficial triumvirate within the committee which wielded power during the Reign of Terror until the three were arrested and executed in 1794 during the Thermidorian Reaction. A Freemason, Couthon played an important role in the development of the Law of 22 Prairial, which was responsible for a sharp increase in the number of executions of accused counter-revolutionaries.

Background

Couthon was born on 22 December 1755 in Orcet in the province of Auvergne. His father was a notary, and his mother was the daughter of a shopkeeper. Couthon, like generations of his family before him, was a member of the lower bourgeoisie. Following in his father's footsteps, Couthon became a notary. The skills that he acquired enabled him to serve on the Provincial Assembly of Auvergne in 1787, his first experience of politics. This same year, 1787 he married Marie Brunet and his first son Antoine was born. His other son Hippolyte would be born in 1790. He was well-regarded by others as an honest well-mannered individual.

Georges Couthon suffered joint problems from childhood, however it wasn't until 1782 that his condition significantly worsened, necessitating the use of a cane by 1791 and complete reliance on a wheelchair by 1793. Doctors diagnosed Couthon with meningitis in 1792, but Couthon blamed his paralysis on the frequent sexual experiences of his youth. Although he began treating his condition with mineral baths, he grew so weak by 1793 that he was confined to a wheelchair driven by hand cranks via gears. His political aspirations took him away from Orcet and to Paris, and he joined the Freemasons in 1790 in Clermont. There, he became a fixture at its literary society, where he earned acclaim for his discussion on the topic of "Patience". In 1791, Couthon became one of the deputies of the Legislative Assembly, representing Puy-de-Dôme.

Deputy
In 1791, Couthon traveled to Paris to fulfill his duty as a deputy in the Legislative Assembly. He then joined the growing Jacobin Club of Paris. He chose to sit on the Left at the first meeting of the Assembly but soon decided against associating himself with such radicals, as he feared they were "shocking the majority". Reportedly, he was also a very proficient speaker.

In September 1792, Couthon was elected to the National Convention. During a visit to Flanders, where he sought treatment for his health, he met and befriended Charles François Dumouriez, later writing praises of him to the Assembly and referred to him as "a man essential to us." His relationship with Dumouriez briefly caused Couthon to consider joining the Girondist faction of the Assembly, but after the Girondist electors of the Committee of the Constitution refused Couthon a seat on the Committee in October 1792, he ultimately committed himself to the Montagnards and the inner group formed around Maximilien Robespierre; both shared many opinions. Couthon became an enthusiastic supporter of the Montagnards and often echoed their opinions. At the Trial of Louis XVI in December 1792, he argued loudly against the Girondist request for a referendum and went on to vote for the death sentence without appeal. On 30 May 1793 Couthon was appointed secretary of the original Committee of Public Safety. Couthon and 5 others, including his close friend Louis Antoine de Saint-Just, were brought in to assist in the drafting of the French Constitution of 1793. Three days after rising to that position, Couthon was the first to demand the arrest of proscribed Girondists.

Lyon

Growing unrest had been occurring in Lyon in late February and early May. By 5 July 1793, the National Convention determined the city of Lyon to be "in a state of rebellion", and by September, the Committee of Public Safety decided to send representatives to Lyon to end the rebellion. Couthon would be the representative to whom Lyon would surrender on 9 October 1793. He was suspicious of the unrest in Lyon upon his arrival and would not allow the Jacobins of the local administration to meet with one another for fear of an uprising.

In August Couthon carried a law punishing any person who should sell assignats at less than their nominal value with imprisonment for twenty years in chains; on 8 September making investments in foreign countries punishable with death. On 12 October 1793, the Committee of Public Safety passed a decree that it believed would make an example of Lyon. The decree specified that the city itself was to be destroyed. Following the decree, Couthon established special courts to supervise the demolition of the richest homes in Lyon and leave the homes of the poor untouched. In addition to the demolition of the city, the decree dictated that the rebels and the traitors were to be executed. Couthon had difficulty accepting the destruction of Lyon and did not even contribute much to the property destruction. Eventually, he would find that he could not stomach the task at hand, and by the end of October the National Convention sent a replacement. Republican atrocities in Lyon began after Couthon was replaced on 3 November 1793 by Jean Marie Collot d'Herbois, who would go on to condemn 1,880 Lyonnais by April 1794.

Law of 22 Prairial
Following his departure from Lyon, Couthon returned to Paris, and on 21 December, he was elected president of the convention. In March 1794 he contributed to the prosecution of the Hébertists and Dantonists (or Indulgents). His orientation to Louis Antoine de Saint-Just and Maximilien Robespierre's program at this time is not clear, but he did go along with the prosecutions and executions. He continued serving on the Committee of Public Safety for the next several months. On 10 June 1794 (22 Prairial Year II on the French Republican Calendar), Couthon drafted the Law of 22 Prairial with the aid of Robespierre. On the pretext of shortening proceedings, the law deprived the accused of the aid of counsel and of witnesses for their defence in the case of trials before the Revolutionary Tribunal. The Revolutionary Tribunals were charged with quick verdicts of innocence or death for the accused brought before them. The reason for the law was also related to the number of executions going on in the provinces and the lack of standard judicial proceedings for these improvised tribunals.

Couthon proposed the law without consulting the rest of the Committee of Public Safety, as both Couthon and Robespierre expected that the committee would not be receptive to it. The Convention raised objections to the measure, but Couthon justified the measure by arguing that the political crimes overseen by the Revolutionary Tribunals were considerably worse than common crimes because "the existence of free society is threatened." Couthon also famously justified the deprivation of the right to a counsel by declaring, "The guilty have no such right and the innocents do not need any."

Robespierre assisted Couthon in his arguments by subtly implying that any member of the Convention who objected to the new bill should fear being exposed as a traitor to the republic. Collot d'Herbois, Fouché and Tallien feared for their lives, due to the military excesses carried out by them in various regions of France to stamp out opposition to the revolutionary government. They feared that they would be exposed as having committed crimes against humanity. Almost all the deputies agreed it had become dangerous. Couthon proposed his resignation "rather than be suspected of taking part in measures" against his colleagues.

The law passed, and the rate of executions in Paris promptly rose. In Paris, compared to an average of 5 executions, which had been the norm two months earlier (Germinal), 17 executions would take place daily during Prairial, with 26 occurring daily during the following month of Messidor. Between the passing of the Law of 22 Prairial (10 June 1794) and the end of July 1794, 1,515 executions took place at the Place du Trône-Renversé, now Place de la Nation, more than half of the final total of 2,639 executions that occurred between March 1793 and August 1794.

Arrest and execution

During the crisis preceding the Thermidorian Reaction, Couthon gave up a journey to Auvergne in order, as he wrote, that he might "either die or triumph with Robespierre". Robespierre had disappeared from the political arena for an entire month because of a supposed nervous breakdown as well as for health reasons and therefore did not realise that the situation in the convention had changed. His last speech seemed to indicate that another purge of the convention was necessary, but he refused to name names. In a panic of self-preservation, the Convention called for the arrest of Robespierre and his affiliates, including Couthon, Saint-Just and Robespierre's own brother, Augustin Robespierre. Couthon was guillotined on 10 Thermidor alongside Robespierre, but it took the executioner fifteen minutes (amidst Couthon's screams of pain) to arrange him on the board correctly because of his paralysis.

Legacy
Couthon, during the course of the French Revolution, had transitioned from an undecided young deputy to a strongly committed lawmaker. Aside from his actions in Lyon, it is perhaps the creation of the Law of 22 Prairial and the number of individuals that would be executed because of the law that have become his lasting legacy. After the acceptance of Couthon's new decree, executions increased from 134 people in early 1794 to 1,376 people between the months of June and July 1794. The Law of 22 Prairial also allowed tribunals to target noblemen and members of the clergy with reckless abandon, as the accused no longer could call character witnesses on their behalf. Of the victims executed during June and July 1794, 38% were of noble descent and 26% represented the clergy. More than half of the victims came from the wealthier parts of the bourgeoisie. Couthon's lawmaking greatly increased the rate of executions in Paris.

title: Georges Couthon


text:
Nick St Aubyn

Nicholas Francis St Aubyn (born 19 November 1955) is a Conservative Party politician in the United Kingdom.

Early life
St Aubyn is the younger son of the Hon. Piers St Aubyn MC by his marriage to Mary Bailey-Southwell, and a grandson of Baron St Levan. He went to Eton College, and Trinity College, Oxford, where he was a member of the Oxford University Liberal Club and in the aftermath of the 1975 referendum on UK EEC-membership, President of the Young European Federalists. He was awarded a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree in PPE in 1977; the BA was later promoted to a Master of Arts (MA Oxon) degree. Before Oxford, he lived and worked in Soweto, South Africa, through a placement with the Project Trust.

He worked as a Loan Officer for Morgan Guaranty Trust from 1977 to 1981. He was the head of the London office of Morgan Futures from 1981 to 1984, then the head of the Sterling and Arbitrage Swaps Desk from 1984 to 1986. He was Vice President of Kleinwort Benson Cross Finance from 1986 to 1987. He worked for American International Group's Financial Products Division from 1987 to 1989. From 1989 to 1993, he was Chairman of Gemini Ltd. From 1993 to 1997, he was Chairman of Fitzroy Joinery Ltd in Plymouth.

Political career
From 1982 to 1986, St Aubyn was a Conservative councillor on Westminster City Council, representing Little Venice ward. He then fought the Truro by-election in March 1987 following the death of David Penhaligon, when Matthew Taylor comfortably held the seat for the Liberals. He stood again in Truro at the 1987 general election, more than halving the Liberal majority, but slipped back at the 1992 general election.

Following the retirement of long-serving Conservative MP and former minister David Howell, St Aubyn was selected as Conservative candidate for Guildford in preparation for the 1997 general election. Withstanding the national landslide against his party, he held the seat with a reduced majority over the Liberal Democrats, but at the 2001 election he narrowly lost the seat to the Liberal Democrat Sue Doughty. While in parliament, he served on the Education Select Committee and was Parliamentary Private Secretary to Michael Portillo. He did not contest the 2005 election, when Anne Milton narrowly retook the seat for the Conservatives.

Personal life
St Aubyn married Jane Brooks on 26 April 1980 and they have two sons (Henry and Edward) and three daughters (Kitty, Alice and Camilla). His older brother inherited the title Lord St Levan from their uncle the 4th Baron St Levan.

Books

 * Nick St Aubyn, Custom of the County (2010)

title: Nick St Aubyn


text:
Patrick Neill, Baron Neill of Bladen

Francis Patrick Neill, Baron Neill of Bladen, (8 August 1926 – 28 May 2016) was a British barrister and a crossbench member of the House of Lords.

Early life and education
A son of Sir Thomas Neill, Patrick Neill was educated at Highgate School and Magdalen College, Oxford.

Legal career
He became a barrister in 1951 and took silk in 1966. After heading One Hare Court, he became head of chambers of Serle Court in Lincoln's Inn when the two merged in 1999. He worked alongside Henry Fisher, Roger Parker, Gordon Slynn, and Richard Southwell QC. Lord Neill left Serle Court in 2008 to join his elder brother Sir Brian Neill, a former Court of Appeal judge, at 20 Essex Street.

University of Oxford
He was Warden of All Souls College, Oxford, from 1977 until 1995, and appointed an Honorary Fellow in 1995. He was Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University from 1985 until 1989, and played a major part in the University's decision to undertake The Campaign for Oxford. He was an unsuccessful candidate in the 2003 University of Oxford Chancellor election.

Family life
Neill was the younger brother of the paediatrician Catherine Neill (1921–2006) and of the judge Sir Brian Neill (1923–2017). In 1954 he married Caroline Susan Debenham, daughter of Sir Piers Kenrick Debenham. They had six children. He died in May 2016 at the age of 89.

Honours
Having been knighted in 1983, Neill was made a Life Peer as Baron Neill of Bladen, of Briantspuddle in the County of Dorset, on 28 November 1997. He sat in the House of Lords as a crossbencher until 18 May 2016, at which point he ceased to be a member pursuant to section 2 of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014, having failed to attend during the whole of the 2015–16 session without being on leave of absence.

title: Patrick Neill, Baron Neill of Bladen