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Talk:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

Nigger controversy

 * Originally the phrase was "catch the nigger by his toe." This predated black slavery and was a reference to the devil. The devil having cloven hooves wuold have no feeling in his toes, so the rhyme was a way of detecting Old Nick from an innocent.

 * I can't find any reference for the nigger=devil etymology. Can you point me to a reference? - DavidWBrooks 16:42, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The Devil has sometimes been described as a "black man" (black symbolical of evil - see Demons and colours) but without a definite reference, the "devil=nigger" connection looks like speculation based upon that knowledge. ~ FriedMilk 07:33, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Whoever wrote this nonsense was also unaware that blacks have been in America since ca. 1617. Since the Devil doesn't have a toe, this is all just sand in our eyes, to "show" that "nigger" isn't "nigger." I hate to delete this. Maybe someone else will... Wetman 06:02, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to be anything but whitewashing (so to speak). I've removed it in the process of merging in Eenie Meenie; if anyone can verify it, they can add it back in. -Sean Curtin 05:31, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be some evidence online for this - including the perhaps more convincing assertion that Inimicus Animo is Latin for 'Enemy of the spirit'. I would consider adding it back in if this is the case - but isn't animo 'my spirit'? (very basic Latin here). --taras 11:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, growing up in Australia in the 70's I had only ever heard of the "nigger" version. I didn't even know there were other versions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.99.99.148 (talk) 02:43, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny, I'd been taught the "tiger" version like most people in the USA, and my older (white) relatives had never known any other version. I'd first heard the "nigger" version contained in the Parliament song "Loose Booty", and had always assumed George Clinton had made it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.179.217.117 (talk) 07:48, 18 December 2004 (UTC)
 * If anyone's interested, growing up in Ireland I only ever heard the "nigger" version, so it's not just a US phenomenon. In fact, the first time I heard the "tiger" version was in the Simpsons episode Homer Defined. RMoloney 22:29, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I grew up in Scotland in the non-pc 1970's and 80's I didn't know there were other, non-racist, versions of the rhyme. Many of the kids I played with at school or in my street even updated the rhyme and used "Paki" instead of “nigger”.  Appalling really. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.122.175 (talk) 03:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Without meaning to turn this into a page of reminiscences - I think it is quite interesting how widespread this rhyme is and the variations that exist. Growing up in NE Scotland in the late 80s/early 90s, we said "tigger" but were well aware of the origin. Though we substituted in the lines  "If he squeals let him go" and added "You are not it" at the end.  It might be worthwhile making this page a little less US-centric too IMHO. -taras 23:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I was born and raised in India, and I only heard of the "nigger" version. Ofcourse, that word is not used in a discriminatory way there, suffice to say I was shocked when I moved to the U.S. and learned about it's history. Godm0de 06:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, completely anecdotal but I remember hearing "catch a Paki by the toe" (ie Pakistani) growing up in England in the 90s. --Black Butterfly 12:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand, the "nigger" version was used by slave owners in the Carribean when buying newly arrived slaves from Africa. When choosing a slave to buy (hence eenie meenie) they would pinch their toes. This was to test for gangrene after the crossing of the Atlantic. If he squealed, then gangrene had set in, and they let him go, and they continued on (eenie meenie miney mo). I was surprised that this explanation was not in Wikipedia. --Oinj 01:02, 18 March 2007
 * Sounds like an urban legend. If you can find any reference to back it up, though, it would be an excellent addition to the article. - DavidWBrooks 02:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I can report the same as other non-US people here. I grew up in Australia and during my childhood years in the mid-late 70's the only version I was aware of was the nigger version. It wasn't until a discussion about the rhyme with my American wife that I discovered any "tiger" version existed. 70.189.213.149 00:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

 * An Australian also here. I went through primary school more recently in the late 90's and the only version of the rhyme I had ever heard was the nigger version. Of course none of us at that time had any idea what a nigger was and did not know the term was offensive. I have yet to see any person of African-American descent outside of Perth in Western Australia (and I am in my 20's).--Cynicle (talk) 19:47, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

 * USA, central Oklahoma, born in the mid-1970s... The only version I heard as a child was "catch a tiger" and "make him pay 50 dollars every day".  (Or "catch a ___" where the blank is filled in with the listener's name.  Playfully grab big toe at that moment.)  I never knew there was any other way to say it until recently.  Certainly I had never heard it said with the N-word or any other racist intent. Bouncey (talk) 22:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I have been able to research on the "nigger" version of eenie, meenie, minie, moe, the child's picking poem was referrenced to slave trading. When buying slaves, owners were said to grab and twist a toe, skin or appendage and twist. If the slave verbalized loudly (hollers), it was thought to be an indication that the slave would be a trouble-maker. -- User NoahWard 04:12. 21 March 2008 (UTC)

 * That may well be true, and with references would make a great addition to the article. But nursery rhymes are magnets for faux history, so references are needed. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

 * In the sixties growing up in England all I ever heard was the version which used the word 'nigger'. It was all pervasive and could be quoted by adults and children alike. There was no shock value when it was used. We knew the word could be used to refer to a black person but as used by us in the playground it was devoid of any racist tone and served only as a means of selecting children for games in the playground. The heavy promotion of other versions since the eighties appears to have replaced it, in many publications, with more PC versions and sometimes history is written as though the original version did not exist at all, but that doesn't make it so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * At school in North London 1972-78 we used the nigger version, without any ill intention; it was just part of the rhyme. This was also noted in the TV show The Goodies where they replaced the Nigger word with "Hmm Hmm Hmm" a series of throat clearing coughs to indicate that embarrassment at the word's inclusion in the rhyme. This to me shows that a non-bowdlerised version wasn't prevalent at the time. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 23:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

seems to connect with the commin practice of lopping off a slaves toe as punishment for attempting escape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.117.96.105 (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

the original "nigger" version is NOT displayed prominently enough in this article. hence really misleading. wikipedia is NOT censored, so put the original to the very top of the article where it belongs!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.219.243 (talk) 00:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

 * It's not the original version, with or without all capitals. -DavidWBrooks (talk) 01:59, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

As a kid in the UK the only version I ever learned was 'catch a nigger by his toe'. I would appreciate it if editors didnt try to censor in the name of 'isms' as per usual. EEEEEE1 (talk) 20:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I agree with this. It is almost Orwellian to deny that the version - "...catch a nigger by his toe, if he squeals let him go" - existed. I am a baby boomer and anyone born in the UK in the 1960s grew up singing this version in their childhood with no racist overtones. This rhyme only changed when PC came in and the version was changed to tiger (which I also had never heard until reading this article). So, please make reference to this original version as you cannot simply delete this original version.
 * As of your post (Jan. 15, 2017) the article has extensive discussion of the version; nobody denies it existed. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 22:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Born in 1972 and growing up in Australia as a 2nd generation Australian of Egyptian background (I have dark skin and was often called nigger) I only heard the "nigger" version. Unfortunately this was the social norm at the time and I used to say this myself! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.110.12 (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I grew up in California, born in the mid-50s, and the only version I ever heard was the "nigger" version. Never heard the tiger version, as I was grown up by the time tiger was substituted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.115.168.2 (talk) 13:56, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

"Baby" version?

 * Coming from the UK, I have never heard "tiger". Nor have I ever heard "baby". I have only heard "nigger" and "tinker" - a variation that nobody else has mentioned. Why haven't I heard "baby"? Is it something that was introduced in the last 10-20 years?--Oxonian2006 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I find it disgusting that the tinker version is not even mentioned on the main article as this is the only version that manages to be both inoffensive and logically cohesive at the same time, as you obviously cannot factually catch a tiger by the toe. Growing up in the UK in the late 80's and early 90's, the tinker version was the only version I was exposed to, yet the way the main article here is structured, it implies that the racist version was taught to children here, even in schools. If Wikipedia is trying to be accurate, leaving out the soundest version and simultaneously implying that even as a nursery rhyme sung to children, that it still retains racist connotations despite the clear direction away from such seems like a large fallacy motivated by someone's personal agenda. With all these other obscure variants included, why would you leave out the one that makes the most sense? The one that was taught predominantly to children in recent decades deserves some representation, as it currently has NONE here. 86.18.222.141 (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am also from the UK, yet have only heard "tiger", and not "baby" at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.65.100 (talk) 14:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * im from the UK aswell i havent heard tiger or tiger more a combination of the two where you catch a tigger by its toe and let i t go when it squeals

eenie meenie minie moe catch a tigger by the toe if it squeels let it go eenie meanie minie moe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.232.82.123 (talk) 08:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

 * In my opinion, this version is clearly racist and refers to slavery. In one of the versions showed it says: "if he won't work them let him go..." This extract shows that the rhyme really talks about slaves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.50.14 (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Eeny meeny miny mo: Sit the baby on the po: When he's done, wipe his bum: Eeny meeny miny mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.150.22 (talk) 11:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember in Scotland in the 1950s the version:

Current Version/s?
I feel it is misleading to refer to the PC version as the 'current' version as though there is some official version which we should all know. The older version is still around. Surely the 'current' heading is an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that this is the version which they ought to use (rather then the version with the awkward word in it). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I added the most commonly used additional words. See this scholarly source for details https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/289662607:F2C0:94DA:C500:F169:EA16:A9E6:8FB0 (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 * @MichaelMaggs I think the unregistered editor was citing the above source but might not know how to cite it within the line? Maineartists (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 * You can fix the format of the source, but don't remove the "magazine" continuation part. This article has all sorts of archaic versions in different languages, but the current main version should certainly be included.199.119.233.221 (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 * @199.119.233.221 You really should learn how to properly cite sources so that other editors can use the same source. Especially if there is additional content that can be drawn from the source. See Cite Web: Template. Also, the source you have cited is a Communal Encyclopedia Wiki. You need to cite the book from where the verse came from: R. D. Abrahams and L. Rankin, Counting-out Rhymes: a Dictionary (University of Texas Press, 1980), p. 119 Maineartists (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Pulp Fiction
This isn't an article about that movie, so I trimmed back a lengthy discussion of the scene. The only reason it's here is the use of the rhyme, so character names, etc., aren't needed - DavidWBrooks 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with DavidwBrooks' statement. As you can see by the entries at the top of the talk page and below this section under the New Zealand version header, the un-politically correct version is still the 'current' or at least most prevalent version in Australia and New-Zealand as far as I'm concerned (it changing in the major capitol cities but it's definitely not yet prevalent).--Cynicle (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

lawsuit citation
Can someone add a citation for the lawsuit? to a newspaper article or something? meanwhile, I'll lexis nexis it. Found it and added link--Muchosucko 08:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"History"

 * It is also doubtful that the "nigger" version would have mutated into the "tiger" version in an era when political correctness was not an issue, or that it would have caught on so widely with few variations of similar popularity.
 * Many people who grew up before the late 1960's are likely to report having heard or grown up with the "nigger" version of the rhyme. Since the late 1960's, and especially Civil Rights Act of 1964 the "nigger" variation has become much more rare but is still used in some circles to this day.

Just how are these two statements consistent with each other? First the author says that it's unlikely to have changed in the comparatively brief time since PCness became fashionable, then s/he claims that it did. These two sentences and the paras that contain them were both contributed by the anon (no other contributions) who started the Eenie Meenie article (since merged). Shouldn't we verify or remove them?

Also, several people (on this talk page, on the Eenie Meenie talk page, myself, my colleagues) agree that the "nigger" version is still the usual one in the UK and Ireland, at least. It seems we could safely say so in the article. —Blotwell 11:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, and yes. - DavidWBrooks 22:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's the 'usual' version in the UK and Ireland. I learnt it as 'catch a knicker', everyone else at school learnt 'catch a tigger' or tiger. I was made aware of the 'bad' version by my mother, because it was the usual version when she learnt it. I do not believe the 'bad' version is in general use. I've also heard of older versions being 'catch a hare', listed in my Penguin Book of Nursery Rhymes somewhere. (And we used 'squeals' not 'hollers', because 'holler' isn't used in the UK.) Skittle 10:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * "nigger" is certainly not the usual one in the UK. Indeed, in many parts of the UK that would be a swift way for any child to be excluded from school. "It is also doubtful that the "nigger" version would have mutated into the "tiger" version in an era when political correctness was not an issue, or that it would have caught on so widely with few variations of similar popularity." suggests to me that "tiger / tigger" may have mutated in to "nigger" but not vice versa. --Longwayround 17:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually the "NIGGER" one is probably the original version and not simply a "controversial version".  This article is proof positive that you can't trust wikipedia as a real source of fact.  For one, tigers don't have "toes" and if you were to catch a tiger by any appendage, you'd be the one hollering to be let go.  The "tiger" version most certainly was the edited version.  The word "nigger" was considered offensive well before our current PC days. 76.229.189.16 (talk) 00:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Grew up in the 80s in Northern Ireland, the "nigger" version was the only one we knew, although it was said without any knowledge of race issues. None of us had even seen a black person other than on the telly. 82.29.231.118 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I was born in 1966 (New York City) and when I was a little boy (1970's) we sang: Eenie Meeny Miny Moe catch a tiger by the toe, if he hollers let him go, my mother says to pick this one and out goes Y-O-U (and we sometimes followed that up with - "and you are not it") I personally never heard the "N" word version until the Pulp Fiction movie. 98.116.75.98 (talk)AR

Updated British version
I'm considering changing the British version to

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe Catch a fishy with your' toe If it's nice lick it twice, Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.

As it is the standard version in my area, however I am unsure of it's popularity in other areas.Cardboard boxA 18:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds like that could be a regional variation. May be worth adding it to the article, but I don't think it could be described as the definitive British version. I grew up with the "tiger" version myself. --62.30.181.30 13:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I've never heard the "tiger" version, despite having lived in Lincolnshire, Essex and Lancashire. "Tigger" is the version I know best. --Longwayround 17:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

published history
Right now, following the additions by an apparently well-informed anonymous IP concerning "nigger" versions printed in the early 1920s, we say both that "The earliest known published versions in the English language date to 1855," and that there are a lack of "tiger" versions in print before 1950. This implies that the 1855 version uses "nigger", or at least doesn't use "tiger". Does anybody know if this is the case? If we don't know for sure, we need to change something. - DavidWBrooks 20:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it clearer now? Basically, earlier versions (and it will have been around for a long time before it was ever recorded, this being the nature of folk rhymes, especially before the 20th century) used a variety of different people and animals. Skittle 22:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I grew up near Edinburgh, Scotland in the 1970-1980's and though I had heard the fishy version the most popular version was: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, Sits a baby on a po, When it's done, Wipe its bum, Eeny Meeny Miny Mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.137.195 (talk) 17:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Phoenix Wright reference
Ini Miney and Mimi Miney are in a separate case from the clown named Moe. Furthermore, since the clown's full name is given as Larry Curls, it seems clear to me that Larry "Moe" Curls is a Three Stooges reference, not a "eeny meeny miny moe" reference. -- Sertrel (talk | contribs) 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe -- occurrence in pop culture
Fats Domino's 1956 million-seller "Yes it's Me and I'm in Love Again" includes the following stanza:

Eenie meenie and miney mo Tol' me y' don't want me around no mo' Ooooeey, baby, oooooo-eee Baby don't you let yo dog bite me.

Too many pop-culture references
I have come to the conclusion that eeny-meenie-etc. is too popular for us to list all the times it shows up in films/books/TV/etc. - the section is growing *way* out of bounds. I'd like to throw out virtually all of them, keeping only extremely unusual cases (e.g., the character names in Rushdie's novel). Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks 20:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Four months later I did it - removing all instances in which are character says "eenie meenie ..." to make choices. I left in all the songs, since I couldn't decide if that counted or not. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Other versions and other trivia
I do not know if any of this will be useful, but I am going to share it in the discussion area so that the editor may decide if this story or any part of it may be useful in the main article. The use of the word "nigger" is slang for "Negro" and was the common usage at that time.

---

When I was a child in Milwaukee during the fifties, the rhyme we used had two versions. It went like this to eliminate:

[The asterisk (*) represents the beat when the finger is pointed at the next in line.]

*Eney *meany *miney *moe (four count) *Catch a *nigger *by the *toe (four count) *If he *hollers *let him *go (four count) *Out *goes *Y *O *U (five count)

The alternative last line was used to choose:

*I *choose *Y *O *U (five count)

I know the last line does not rhyme properly, but we were kids and did not care. If you check out the mathematics, you will find that the count was a prime number and a prime number is ideal for a choosing rhyme.

Some time during the sixties, I remember changes to the rhyme. The word "tiger" replaced the word "nigger". It would not have made much difference if that were the only change, but more changes made the rhyme more unwieldy. The insertion of the line "my mother says to pick the very best one" before the last line made the total count an even number. Even as children, we realized that did not work as well. However, since we had respect for our mothers, the last line was usually eliminated to make the count an odd number again. Other less successful attempts were made, but since none of them had a prime number count, they never worked as well as the original version, with or without the word substitution.

{Off topic, but perhaps germane; the use of the word "nigger" as a child did not make me a bigot. It was when a Negro discriminated against me that I became aware of racial prejudice.}

During this time of changes, our group decided on "*my *mother *says *to *chose *the *very *best *one, *so *I *choose *you" because it worked better than any of the other choosing rhyme variations with the word "mother" in it. This, unbeknownst to us, was because it has a prime number count. The only thing that made this method of choice random was the direction the chooser went, the choice of the individual to start, the changing number from which the choice was to be made, and the order in which the individuals lined up.

{Further off topic: During the seventies, I learned to use a random number generator to make choices, but by then I was no longer a child. I still have a couple of sets of random number generators consisting of seven dice (four, six, eight, ten (units), ten (decades), twelve, and twenty sided) that use actual numbers instead of dots.}

1880 citation
Bolton in his 1888 work on children's counting rhymes collected about eighteen variants of "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo" (see pages 105-106). Of these, eight are included in Section 1—"Catch a nigger by the toe." Most of these were from the United States, but at least two were from the British Isles. Of these eight, five caught "a nigger by the toe" (No.s 600, 601, 602, 604, & 606); one "a negro by the toe" (No. 603); one "a baby by the toe" (No. 605); and one "a nigger by the thumb" (No. 607). Altogether Bolton collected more than 50 variants of "Enie, Meenie". Bolton states earlier in his book that the "nigger" variant likely originated in the U.S. The use of "tiger by the toe" seems to be an adult adaption of the children's rhyme dating from the mid-20th century as it appears nowhere in Bolton's collection. Hope this helps.
 * Bolton, Henry Carrington, The Counting-out Rhymes of Children: Their Antiquity, Origin, and Wide Distribution. New York: D. Appleton & Co. (1888). BackSignTiger (talk) 04:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, the "catch a baby by the toe" was collected in Newport, Rhode Island, not in England. BackSignTiger (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The book mentioned above is public domain, and available on Google Book Search. Link to page 105, which contains the offensive version as well: -- Otto 19:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The book also points out that the rhyme was the most popular version among American schoolchildren at the time (page 46) and that "every state in the union" reported this (page 105). -- Otto 19:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Yonkers, NY, early '60s
(Please forgive the spelling)

Eeny Meeny Picka Teeny Goo Gah Gahgah Leeny Otcha Potcha Googa Lotcha Out Goes Y O  U

(variation: Otchy Potchy Googa Lotchy)

Is this familiar to ANYONE?

24.188.14.175 (talk) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

 * It reminded me of Beast Day -well, very similar. Sussexonian (talk) 00:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Well I remember a version in Scotland which was total nonsense, but along similar lines:
 * Eeny meeny zicka zacka,
 * Paneruski eel tobacca,
 * Een skeen boxeleen,
 * Jellix
 * You Are Out!
 * ("Tobacco" was always pronounced with a final "a" here.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.30.226.37 (talk) 11:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Misleading statments re English traditional rhyme, etc.
The following statements are not supported by actual facts: "As pointed out in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the word "nigger" was common in American folk-lore, but unknown in any English traditional rhyme or proverb. This, combined with evidence of various versions of the rhyme in England that predate the "nigger" version, suggest that the "nigger" version merely became the most popular at some point in the 20th century, probably originating in America."

For instance, the well known American song "Ten Little Indians" was published in the US before 1868—Frank Green published the British version "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. Also, the only reference found to anything "caught by the toe" in Britian other than "nigger by the toe" was found by Gomme (p. 420) in a schoolgirl's dancing song from Scotland c. 1898 (similar to "hokey-cokey"):
 * Eendy, beendy, baniba, roe,
 * Caught a chicken by the toe;
 * To the east, to the west,
 * To the old crow's nest,
 * Hopping in the garden, swimming in the sea,
 * If you want a pretty girle, please take me.

 * Gomme, Alice Bertha. The Traditional Games of England, Scotland, and Ireland. London: David Nutt (1898) BackSignTiger (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Table format
An editor was beginning to put the various national versions into table format. I have reverted the effort because I found it visually very confusing - tables are great for organizing information in which individual pieces of data are relatively small, but not for long stanzas of poetry. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

As a 'random' choice generator
Hmm, the article seems to be missing something important: the properties of the rhyme as a random choice generator. Would I be right in assuming that in the normal versions, it's four choices per line? So the british version would pick 16 mod Number of choices?--Fangz (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The sentence "... used to select a person to be "it" for games and similar purposes." seems to me to cover that pretty well. And it's not really random - in fact, it's totally predictable who will be chosen once you begin; it's just too complicated to be worth the bother of calculating in advance who that choice will be. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To an observer who doesn't understand the "code" it's impossible to distinguish appeared randomness and true randomness. These are children after all, and for them it is as good as any pseudorandom generating computer. (Anyone remembering becoming a little older, and the discussion and feelings when you started figuring out that it wasn't random after all?) I second a carefully worded paragraph of the random generator phenomena. Vbakke (talk) 21:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * While I've seen various rhymes used for choosing a child 'randomly', whenever someone has a difficult and descision that doesn't matter too much, very often they use 'eeny meeny' etc. I think that a section on use as a descision making aid should be included, with reference to the lack of true randomness. rdm_box 00:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdmbox (talk • contribs)
 * The indicated phrase doesn't remotely cover this well enough. *How* does the poem "select a person to be 'it'"? Whomever can say it fastest is It? Everybody says a word in sequence, and whomever messes up first is It? Applejuicefool (talk) 04:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

French version
I'm not familiar with the French version shown here. The one I've heard is this:

Ams tram gram Pic et pic et colégram Bour et bour et ratatam Ams tram gram

This is also the one shown in the French version of this article.

Funnyhat (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mandarin version
The phonetic Mandarin version given isn't very good. I'm not sure what the source is but it isn't proper pinyin. Can we get this in proper pinyin or hanzi, or even an English translation? Pfmiller (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Current versions
Hey, I like content just as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, the "Current Versions" section is.. unneeded. Keep in mind that this page already had versions in different languages. I'd go ahead and remove it myself, but I don't like provoking BAWWWWWs. Will some brave soul go ahead and kill it?  Aaron  ►  07:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, nothing is sourced, so at this point, an equally unsourced argument of "I've never heard that one before" applies to all of these. Not that sourcing them would give them any reason to be here.  Aaron  ►  07:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The "current Versions" section includes all the versions in different languages - do you think they all should go?
 * Looking at the page again, I do think that the history section should be moved up after the intro, dropping all these alternate versions down lower. However, I think the intro should have one current version in it, for readers who don't know what we're talking about (although then we would have to decide: which version?) - DavidWBrooks 17:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Clean up time
I plan to get around to a clean-up of this article: wikifying format (italics are not needed for quotes), putting countries in alphabetical order, and adding in-line references where I can. I will give it a little time for comment here.--Sabrebd (talk) 09:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I have been wondering about the long and ever-growing list of counting rhyme in other languages. They don't seem to me to belong in this article unless they specifically use syllables similar in sound to "eeny meeny ..." imploying that they have some direct historical connection with the English-language version. The fact that all these counting rhymes exist is relevant to the article - it raises the possibility that eeny,meeny is just one of a number of versions of counting rhymes that have spontaneously erupted - but the long list that now exists just drives away readers, IMHO. Not sure how to trim it, however, but it's worth a thought. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have to say I agree. I cannot see why some of these are included and with others I simply have no way of judging whether they are derived from the same rhyme. This is not helped by the lack of sources. No doubt if we start deleting verses there will be howls of protest. Perhaps we could archive the ones with no obvious connection and give time for editors to give sources. You are right that something has to be done as this article is very hard to read at the moment.--Sabrebd (talk) 08:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

 * As a start, we could move them all the bottom of the article en mass, and put something like this in front:
 * Simple counting rhymes are common in languages throughout the world, although it's often not clear whether they have any historical connection to Eeny, meeny. Some examples include:
 * Or perhaps we should create a whole new article, Counting rhymes, and move them all there ... - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Already is one: Counting-out game. They could go on Wikisource--Sabrebd (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

 * The Norwgian and Swedish version can be deleted. The Swedish version has no connection with the original content, nor rhyme! The Norwegian starts with elle melle that might have derived from eeny meeny, but the rest has connection with sailing ships. And the last line I have never heard. They both serve the same purpose as Eeny Meeny, but that is not what this article is about. --Vbakke (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC) (Norwegian, 1974)

 * That's useful to know and highlights the problems. A further difficulty here is that it is very difficult to evaluate these rhymes in so many languages, not least because almost none have any sources mentioned. I am starting to favour looking for sources for what we can and removing the rest - pointing to relevant wikipedias in other languages. This is, after all, an English language wikipedia.--Sabrebd (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If there isn't a linked source, remove it - and remove all foreign-language rhymes (even sourced ones) unless they have the "eeny meeny"-like sound. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We have a methodology. I will see what relevant versions I can source and create refs, then we we can start removing unsourced versions. Irrelevant versions can go now.--Sabrebd (talk) 07:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

México
In this country it is said to be a Jitanjáfora[]

Ini, ini, maini,mo,

que cheleque palestó,

que jingale, lestingó,

ini, ini, maini mo.

Notice:Can anyone help me with the 'quote copyright format' cause I've forgotten. Book 'Ómnibus de poesía mexicana' Author Gabriel Zaid p.123, etc. Just give me the dummy and I'll fill it in, please--207.249.136.254 (talk) 18:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)--207.249.136.254 (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Germany
Many German children rhymes from various regions start with the words "ene mene", see Abzählreim. For example:

ene, mene, muh und raus bist du or: eene meene mickimaus zog sich mal die hose aus zog sie wieder an  und du bist dran  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DD:3F34:374C:5CEE:B893:577C:1AEF (talk) 01:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

85.178.9.5 (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I also don't know the one in the article but that one (ene, mene, muh...) is very common and seems to be closer to "eeny, meeny, miny, moe..." 84.57.132.123 (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

French
The same exists in French. It's a rhyme designed to out players one by one. The words mean nothing particular.

am, stram, gram pic et pic et colégram bourre et bourre et ratatam am, stram, gram —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.123 (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

New Zealand
I'm 22 and live in New Zealand. The version all my friends and I used was "eeny meenie miney moe, catch a nigger by the toe, if he squeels, let him go, eeny meenie miney moe." I don't think I've ever heard any other version than this. --222.155.38.107 (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

reminisence
Growing up in the midwestern U.S. (1965) I never heard the racist version used. The rhyme was about catching a tiger, and it used "if it hollers, let it go". I now live in South Carolina and have heard children here using the exact same tiger rhyme. I'm offended by the fact (i.e. Southwest Airlines lawsuit) that if anyone says "eeny meeny" now they are thought to be making a racist slur, just because some people know a racist version. Even after hearing about the Southwest Airlines lawsuit and the new taboo being forced on even the innocent version of this rhyme, I still automatically think "eeny meeny" when picking between two things and am apt to say it by accident. I think the taboo should obviously only be on any racist version of the rhyme. Great article about the various versions including the Latin, thanks. --User:Urthcreature

Another experience, from my grandmother (b. 1889, Hood County, Texas)

My grandmother taught my mother this version: Eeny, meeny, minie, mo. Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers make him pay fifty dollars every day. My mother, who grew up in Fort Smith, Arkansas, taught it to her children, and we, who grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, never heard any other version. Our companions all knew it this way too. Texas Star Thrower 12:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * As I child I used this version, replacing the epithet with "tigger", like the Winnie-The-Pooh character. Applejuicefool (talk) 04:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

90s and early 2000s version in Virginia
I was born in Virginia in 1996, so I can't say much about the history, but the version I learned was "Eeny meeny miny moe, catch a tiger by the toe, if he hollers let him go. My mother says to pick the very best one and you are it." Never heard of the version using the n-word. Maybe because I'm so young? Not sure. Finding these other versions fascinating, though, I never knew its origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.188.215 (talk) 06:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

 * I was born in Virginia in 1955, and (alas) the "nigger" version was not unusual in my childhood, although officially frowned upon. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:23, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Toronto, Ontario, 1960s. We had the nigger/hollers version, and it's still the only one I know.
 * It paired up nicely with the schoolyard version of the Daniel Boone show theme song:
 * Daniel Boone was a man
 * Yes, a big man
 * But the bear was bigger
 * So he ran like a nigger
 * Up a tree
 * Decades ago, that was offensive. But nowadays do they make movies that don't say nigger in them?
 * Varlaam (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

India version
I have removed the following from the article, because while it's a choosing rhyme with similar-sounding words in the opening, it's not close enough to "eeny meeny ..." to be here. Another rhyme popular in India which closely matches the initial couplet in similar-sounding words goes like... अक्कड़ बक्कड़ बाम्बे बो (Akkad Bakkad Bambay Bo)

अस्सी नब्भे पूरे सौ (Assi Nabbe Pooray Sau = 80 90 total 100)

सौ में लगी बिल्ली (Sau mein lagi billi = Buy a cat with 100)

बिल्ली भागी दिल्ली (Billi bhaagi Dilli = The cat ran away to Delhi)

बोले शेख चिल्ली (Bolay Shekh Chilli = The Saint Chilly said...)

खेले डंडा गिल्ली (Khelay Danda Gilli = (They) Play (game called) Danda Gilli)

गिल्ली गई टूट (Gilli gayi toot = The Gilli Broke)

बच्चे गए रूठ (Bachchay Gaye Rooth = The children went cross)

बच्चों को मनाएंगे (Bachchon ko manainge = We'll coerce the kids)

रस मलाई खायेंगे (Ras-Malayi Khainge = They'll eat sweet dish)

रस मलाई अच्छी (Ras-Malayi Achchee = The sweet dish was good)

हमने खायी मच्छी (Hamne Khayi Machchee = We ate fish)

मच्छी में काँटा (Machchee mein kaanta = The fish had a bone)

पड़ेगा ज़ोर से चांटा (Padeyga zor se chhanta = You'll get a slap)

This is usually followed by the last person being either selected for his turn in the game, or slapped. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy Clarkson incident.
I was wondering whether the incident involving the unaired taping of Top Gear, and Clarkson saying the supposedly racist version of this rhyme should be covered? Arun Sunner 23:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arun Sunner (talk • contribs)

Longer version of the rhyme
This is the one i learned as a kid
 * eeny, meeny, miny, moe
 * catch a tigger by the toe
 * if he hollers, let him go
 * if he doesn't, make him pay
 * fifty dollars every day
 * and you are now it.(line is usually said much louder/exaggerated)

68.117.88.143 (talk) 06:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reliable source for this? Sadly our memories are not enough for inclusion here.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 07:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Nope and I don't intend to look for one. Heh. i just posted that for interest sake. As another interesting aside, often times the last line was changed by kids to read you are "NOT" it and then they would do surprise tag on a different kid68.117.88.143 (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Celtic origin
John McWhorter in this article states that the rhyme descends from pre-Anglo-Saxon Celtic. It's a neat story, but an origin vastly earlier and contradicted by most of this article. Is the Celtic origin a serious notion that has been presented somewhere? - SimonP (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * He's referring to Celtic sheep-counting system that was still in use among UK shepherds as late as 100 years ago, and varied from region to region. "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" would be the counts 1-2-4-5 ("yaeny, taeny, meddera, po" [the dd is pronounce like the th in that]). Similarly with the Hickory, Dickory, Dock, the counts are 8-9-10 ("hovera, dovera, dik"). The earliest versions of the Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Moe rhyme that I know of (one from 1680s/1690s and one from about 1708) have "skepa" and "tigger", respectively, for the thing being caught (a "skepa" is a sheep, a "tigger" is what we now call a beggar).
 * One version of the sheep-count is yaeny, taeny, teddera, meddera, po, settera, lettera, hovera, dovera, dik. 15 would be bomfit, 20 would be jiggot, numbers from 11 to 14 were formed as one-ten (yaenadik) to four-ten (medderadik), and numbers 16 to 19 were formed as one-fifteen (yaenabomfit) to four-fifteen (medderabomfit). Numbers over 20 were counted as multiples of 20 and then the remainder (for example, 31 would be one twenty and one-ten in a similar way that one would use "score" for a count of 20 such as Lincoln's use of "four score and seven" for 87). — al-Shimoni  (talk) 14:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Origins
The article currently states
 * The "Hana, man" was found by Henry Bolton in the US, Ireland and Scotland in the 1880s but was unknown in England until later in the century.

However, it also gives an example of a ryhme collected in Cornwall in 1882 which is clearly a variation of the same. This strikes me as very odd. Unfortunately I do not have the Opies' book. Can anyone answer the following questions? Thanks Thehalfone (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Did Bolton really find exactly identical rhymes in the US, Ireland and Scotland?
 * Do the Opies really claim it was unknown in England (this seems rather a leap to make) or just that it was unrecorded?

 * I have a copy of a 1938 dissertation that quotes some of the rhymes Bolton found. They are not identical. You can check out his book, too. Adraeus (talk) 00:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Most common version

 * "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
 * Catch a tiger by its toe,
 * If he hollers let him go,
 * Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"

Then:
 * "My mother says to,
 * Pick the very best one,
 * And that is you,
 * Y – O – U"

-- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

 * That's the first version in the article, although there's no definitive source for saying exactly which wording is "most common" - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:34, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Variants
This article currently has a Finnish rhyme that is sort of like Eenie Meenie but not really very much, as well as "Inky Binky", an English-language children's rhyme that has no connection that I can see except that it's one of many, many kids rhymes with some nonsense syllables.

Including those two implies that they have some connection to Eenie Meenie, which isn't supported.

I would like to remove both of them, leaving a sentence or two saying that there are many similar-sounding poems and rhymes in English and in other languages using nonesense words, but the connection between them and Eenie Meenie is unclear.

Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I agree that "Inky Binky" and similar nonsense rhymes should go, as well as anything else that isn't according to a reliable source connected or at least potentially connected with "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe". The test shouldn't be whether it does or does not look similar on the page, but what scholars have said about it. I haven't looked at the Finnish source, but that's what should in my view determine the issue. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. that's sort of covered in the history section, above, noting the lack of obvious and agreed-upon connections. The Finnish item's only source is in Finnish, which doesn't make it a good source for the English Wikipedia. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 * So far as I can make out from Google Translate, the source for the Finnish verse discusses its similarity to some German rhymes, but there's no mention at all of "Eenie Meenie". MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I've removed them both. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic (NJ, NY suburbs) Early 1980s Example
… My mother says to pick this one this very best one and you are I-T it

Missing important information
The article begins with this passage:

""Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"—which can be spelled a number of ways—is a children's counting-out rhyme, used to select a person in games such as tag, or for selecting various other things. It is one of a large group of similar rhymes in which the child who is pointed to by the chanter on the last syllable is chosen."

That is the entirety of any explanation of how the rhyme is used.

The article needs at least a brief explanation of how this rhyme is used to choose among several alternatives: by pointing to each one in turn on each stressed syllable, using a circular order on the alternatives, with the last alternative pointed to becoming the choice.

(So if there are N alternatives numbered 1 through N in order, the final choice will be the one having number 16 mod N, i.e., the remainder when 16 is divided by N. E.g., if N = 5 the choice will be the alternative having the number 1.)

I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject can fix this.

 * There's no single way to use it - your description is a common method but not the only one. We don't really need more of a description. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe


text:
Wolfgang Schirmacher

Wolfgang Schirmacher (born 1944) is a German philosopher, editor and educator in the field of philosophy, art and critical thought. He was the Founding Dean of the Media and Communications division at the European Graduate School, where he now is a full professor and holder of the Arthur Schopenhauer Chair of Philosophy. He has edited several journals and written books, as well as developed curricula in philosophical disciplines at major universities.

Biography
Schirmacher has taught philosophy at the University of Hamburg, is a former Core Faculty Member of the Media Studies Graduate Program, New School for Social Research, and Director of International Relations, Philosophy and Technology Studies Center, Polytechnic University of New York. He is the editor of the philosophy journals Schopenhauer-Studien and New York Studies in Media Philosophy. He is also an internationally active philosopher of technology with emphasis on media, gene technology, and neuroscience, as well as president of the International Schopenhauer Association, and chair of the Artificial Life Group.

Selected bibliography

 * (editor with Sven Nebelung): German Essays On Psychology. The German Library 62. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, November 2000, 330 pages, Hardcover, ISBN 0-8264-1237-8.
 * (editor): German 20th Century Philosophy: The Frankfurt School. The German Library 78. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, February 2000, 324 pages, Hardcover, ISBN 0-8264-0966-0.
 * (editor): German Socialist Philosophy: Feuerbach, Marx, Engels. The German Library 40. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, December 1996, Hardcover, ISBN 0-8264-0748-X.
 * (editor): German Essays On Science In The 20th Century. The German Library 82. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, October 1996, 314 pages, Hardcover, ISBN 0-8264-0746-3.
 * (editor): German Essays On Science In The 19th Century. The German Library 36. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, September 1996, 330 pages, Hardcover, ISBN 0-8264-0744-7.
 * (editor): Ethik und Vernunft: Schopenhauer in unserer Zeit. Schopenhauer-Studien 5. Passagen Verlag. Vienna, 1995, 387 pages, Paperback, ISBN 3-85165-023-9.
 * (editor): Arthur Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer: Philosophical Writings. The German Library 27. The Continuum International Publishing Group. New York, London, July 1994, 300 pages, Paperback ISBN 0-8264-0729-3.
 * Schopenhauer, Nietzsche Und Die Kunst. Schopenhauer-Studien 4. Passagen Verlag. Vienna, 1992, 400 pages.
 * (Editor with Jacques Poulain), Arno Münster (Translation). Penser après Heidegger. La Philosophie en commun. L'Harmattan. Paris, 1992, 360 pages, Paperback (Broché), ISBN 2-7384-1064-2.
 * Ereignis Technik. Passagen Philosophie 33. Passagen Verlag. Vienna, 1990, 245 pages, Paperback, ISBN 3-900767-36-X.
 * Schopenhauer In Der Postmoderne. Schopenhauer-Studien 3. Passagen Verlag. Vienna, 1989, 400 pages.
 * (editor): Zeitkritik Nach Heidegger. Reihe Philosophie 9. Die blaue Eule. Essen, 1988, 240 pages.
 * Schopenhauer Aktualität: Ein Philosoph wird neu gelesen. Schopenhauer-Studien 1/2. Passagen Verlag. Vienna, 1988, 400 pages.
 * Schopenhauer. Insel-Almanach 1985. Insel. Frankfurt, 1985, 249 pages, Paperback, ISBN 3-458-14188-X.
 * Schopenhauer Und Nietzsche. Schopenhauer-Jahrbuch 1984. W.Kramer. Frankfurt, 1984, 326 pages.
 * Zeit Der Ernte: Studien zum Stand der Schopenhauer-Forschung. Frommann-Holzboog. Stuttgart, 1983, 447 pages.
 * Technik und Gelassenheit. Zeitkritik nach Heidegger. Fermenta philosophica. Alber Freiburg. München, 1983, 274 pages. Hiroshi Kojima (Partial Translation). Niigata University Press. Niigata, 1986.
 * Ereignis Technik: Heidegger und die Frage nach der Technik. Dissertation. Hamburg, 1980, 310 pages.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wolfgang Schirmacher


text:
Janes Fighting Ships

Janes Fighting Ships is an annual reference book of each country's navy, coast guard, associated vessels, weapons, and aircraft. Included are ship names, construction data, size, speed, range, complement, engineering, armament, and sensors. This is generally followed by relevant commentary. Often referred to as the "Bible" of the world's navies. Originally, it was illustrated with ink sketches done by founder, Fred T. Jane (1865-1916). It is his surname "Jane" that makes this title distinctive.

The first edition was published in 1898 as All the World's Fighting Ships. His was the first annual to put the illustrations alongside the technical data, which simplified the reference. It also had a silhouette section that directed the user to ships that shared certain characteristics, such as the number of funnels, aiding in rapid identification of unfamiliar ships at sea.

Jane also produced a naval war game. The use of Fighting Ships as an adjunct to Jane's war game was secondary to its primary purpose, warship identification.

The first photo appeared in the 1899 edition. From the 1900 edition, photographs would rapidly replace the sketches. Color photographs were introduced in 1990, and now predominate.

By the 1903 edition, the title on the spine was printed as Jane's Fighting Ships. In 1916 the title page followed suit. It was not until 1922 or 23 that the front cover did as well. The apostrophe in Jane's was dropped in 2020.

The first two editions were published by Sampson Low (England), and Little Brown (United States). Sampson Low solely published the 1900-1940 editions. Wartime demand brought in Macmillan to publish a North American edition from 1941 to 1947-48. McGraw Hill took over from Macmillan in publishing the North American edition through the 1973-74 edition. Both Sampson Low and McGraw Hill ended their association with Jane's when Jane's Yearbooks, Franklin Watts, took over publishing with the 1974-75 edition. That iteration was succeeded by Jane's Publishing Company in 1980-81, and then by Jane's Information Group with the 1990-91 edition. JIG was acquired by IHS in 2007.

Jane's has been published every year since 1898, with the exception of the 1940s, when only eight of ten years saw new editions. There were a number of contributing factors to this gap. Vast wartime construction programs were difficult to verify. Extensive modifications were made to existing warships, again, difficult to verify under wartime conditions. Ships were also sunk or destroyed on a near daily basis, a vexing complication. Finally, at the end of the war, demobilization and redistribution of naval assets was rapid and complex. After 1942, editions were published with paired, hyphenated years, beginning with 1943-44. This essentially skipped the 1943 edition, as it was published in 1944. The 1944-45 edition was published in 1946, meaning that no edition was actually published in 1945. There was no 1945-46 edition. The 1946-47 edition was published in 1947. with succeeding editions arriving every year to the present, 2023-2024.

The publication's success launched many popular, military and commercial reference titles that carry the name "Janes". As of 2024, IHS has 35 such titles in print. In the past, Sampson Low, Jane's Yearbooks, Jane's Publishing and JIG have published dozens of similar titles.

Vintage editions of Jane's Fighting Ships are considered collectible. Those published before World War Two are uncommon, while volumes published prior to World War One are scarce.

Ten early editions of Jane's (those of 1898, 1905–06, 1906–07, 1914, 1919, 1924, 1931, 1939, 1944–45, and 1950–51) were reissued in facsimile reprints by Arco Publishing starting in 1969. All of these appeared in the oblong or "landscape" format that characterized the series until the 1956/57 edition, while from 1957/58 the present "portrait" layout was adopted, thus matching the sister Jane's publication on aircraft.

In 1996, Janes became available on CD-ROM and other forms of electronic delivery.

Editors

 * 1898–1915: Fred T. Jane
 * 1916–1917: Maurice Prendergast
 * 1918–1922: Oscar Parkes with Maurice Prendergast
 * 1923–1929: Oscar Parkes with Francis E. McMurtrie
 * 1930–1934: Oscar Parkes
 * 1935–1948: Francis E. McMurtrie
 * 1949–1973: Raymond Blackman
 * 1974–1988: Capt. John Moore (RN)
 * 1988–2000: Capt. Richard Sharpe (RN)Jane's Fighting Ships 1957-58.jpg
 * 2000–2017: Commodore Stephen Saunders (RN)
 * 2018–present: Alex Pape

title: Janes Fighting Ships


text:
Working Title Films

Working Title Films Limited is a British film studio that produces motion pictures and television programs and is a subsidiary of Universal Pictures, a division of NBCUniversal, which is itself a division of Comcast. The company was founded by Tim Bevan and Sarah Radclyffe in 1983. Bevan and Eric Fellner are now the co-chairmen of the company.

Company history
Bevan and Radclyffe were partners in pop music promotional company, Aldabra, and set up Working Title Films in London in 1983 where they were commissioned by newly created UK broadcaster, Channel 4, to make a television film, My Beautiful Laundrette (1985), directed by Stephen Frears. My Beautiful Launderette was a success at the Edinburgh Film Festival and received a theatrical release, where it was successful internationally. Accountant Graham Bradstreet joined as a third partner in 1986.

A World Apart was entered in competition at the 1988 Cannes Film Festival and won the Special Grand Prize of the Jury. The Tall Guy (1988) saw the feature film debut of screenwriter Richard Curtis and director Mel Smith.

In 1988, Michael Kuhn of PolyGram started to work with the company and in 1989 PolyGram acquired 49% of the company and they jointly launched Manifesto Film Sales. Manifesto's first third-party pick up for distribution was the Coen brothers' Barton Fink (1991). Bradstreet left the company in 1990 and Radclyffe a year later, with Eric Fellner, a fellow independent film producer, joining the company in 1991. The same year, Kuhn set up PolyGram Filmed Entertainment which acquired 100% of Working Title in 1992. The company produced a variety of films for PolyGram Filmed Entertainment which became a major Hollywood competitor.

Paul Webster set up an office in Los Angeles in 1991 and producer Liza Chasin was appointed as president of production. Webster produced the company's first American films, Rubin & Ed and Drop Dead Fred. Working Title also made Tim Robbins' directorial debut, Bob Roberts (1992).

Gramercy Pictures began distributing the company's films in the United States, starting with Posse (1993). In 1994, the company's Four Weddings and a Funeral, written by Curtis, became the highest-grossing British film of all-time with a gross of $245 million. They also made the Coen brothers' The Hudsucker Proxy (1994). In 1996, Robbins' Dead Man Walking was the company's first film to win an Academy Award, with Susan Sarandon winning the Academy Award for Best Actress. The Coen brothers' Fargo (1996) won two Academy Awards the following year. The company had another major success with Bean (1997) directed by Smith and co-written by Curtis, grossing $251 million.

In 1998, PolyGram was sold to the Seagram company and merged with MCA Music Entertainment, to form Universal Music Group. PolyGram Films was folded into Universal Pictures. In 1999, Seagram sold the bulk of its library of PolyGram films released up until 31 March 1996 to Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. 1999 also saw the company's highest-grossing film to date with Notting Hill, again written by Curtis, with a gross of $364 million.

Although contractually allowed to produce any film with a budget of up to $35 million, on a practical basis, Bevan and Fellner consult with studio executives at Working Title's parent company NBCUniversal. Working Title company renewed its first look deal with Universal Pictures in 2020.

WT2 Productions
In 1999, Bevan and Fellner launched a subsidiary company named Working Title 2 Productions, commonly known as WT2. The company is an independent film production arm run by Natascha Wharton, and has produced films that include Billy Elliot, Shaun of the Dead and The Calcium Kid.

Television division
Working Title has been active in television production since the beginning of the 1990s. In February 2010, Working Title officially launched its television division as a joint venture with parent company NBCUniversal, itself owned by Comcast. Since then, they have produced content for both British and American television. Notable productions and co productions developed by Working Title Television (WTTV) include NBC's About a Boy, and Showtime's The Tudors.

WTTV has offices in London and Los Angeles.

1991 ITV franchise bid
In 1991, Working Title was involved in a bid for the London Weekend ITV licence. Working Title, Mentorn, Palace and PolyGram wanted to take over from London Weekend Television and broadcast to London under the name London Independent Broadcasting. In the event LWT retained its licence; London Independent Broadcasting's proposals were deemed by the Independent Television Commission, which was overseeing the bid process, to fail the quality threshold.

title: Working Title Films


text:
Recreation and Amusement Association

The Recreation and Amusement Association (特殊慰安施設協会) or RAA, was the largest of the organizations established by Japanese authorities to provide organized prostitution to prevent rapes and sexual violence by Allied occupation troops on the general population, and to create other leisure facilities for occupying Allied troops immediately following World War II. The RAA "recruited" 55,000 women and was short-lived.

Background
On August 21, 1945, Japanese authorities decided to set up a RAA for the benefit of Allied occupation troops. In fact at that time, the Home Ministry had already sent a directive to prefectural governors and police chiefs on August 18 ordering them to make preparations for "comfort facilities" in areas that the Allied occupation troops would be stationed. These facilities (which included dance halls, restaurants, and bars in addition to brothels) were intended to be staffed by women already involved in the "water trade". However, because there were not enough women in the "water trade" and there were an abundance of women facing food scarcity, recruitment was broadened with newspaper ads that obscured the nature of the work while promising food, clothing, and shelter. Government officials used patriotic language in describing the comfort facility system, extolling the women who sacrifice themselves to be "patriotic dikes" preventing sexual violence against Japanese women and girls. In Okinawa, Allied military troops are estimated by one Okinawan historian to have raped 10,000 Okinawan women during World War II. Japanese authorities set up the brothels with the intent of reducing the amount of sexual violence committed by the incoming Allied occupation troops.

Some 50,000 women, most of them as prostitutes, worked for the RAA. The first brothel, named Komachien Garden and employing 150 women, was opened on September 20, 1945. RAA brothels were placed off limits in March 1946, after just seven months of operation, to stop the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases, and closed down shortly thereafter.

According to Tanaka Yuki, General Ishii Shirō's mistress recruited Japanese females as prostitutes for the Recreation and Amusement Association where up to 70,000 Japanese females were forced to serve US soldiers in brothels. However figures given by Tanaka Yuki had been disputed by Walsh, Brian P

Establishment
Although arrangements in most of the country were left to local officials and police departments, in the case of the Tokyo area, which was to host the largest number of foreign troops, a different approach was taken. Nobuya Saka, Superintendent-General of the Metropolitan Police Headquarters, met with Hamajirō Miyazawa and Genjirō Nomoto, the heads of the Tokyo Restaurant Association (東京料理飲食業組合), and asked them to help make arrangements for the soon to arrive troops. Miyazawa and Nomoto used their connections to gather together a group of representatives of the nightclub, bar, and brothel industries. These representatives then met with the police on the 21st where they were formally asked to establish "comfort facilities", but to conceal the government's role as much as possible. On August 23, these men formed the "Special Comfort Facilities Association" (renamed the Recreation and Amusement Association shortly later).

The RAA utilized the patriotic language of the war years in its operations, stressing the "selfless" nature of its employees. At the inauguration of the RAA (which was attended by bureaucrats and police officials), an "oath" was read:

"And so we unite and go forward to where our beliefs lead us, and through the sacrifice of several thousands of 'Okichis of our era' build a breakwater to hold back the raging waves and defend and nurture the purity of our race, becoming as well an invisible underground pillar at the root of the postwar social order... we are but offering ourselves for the defense of the national polity."

The "Okichi" referenced was the possibly legendary maid of Townsend Harris, the first American consul in Japan from 1856 to 1861, who was pressured into becoming his consort.

The organization was funded through unsecured loans from the Japan Industrial Development Bank (日本勧業銀行) arranged by Hayato Ikeda, director of the Ministry of Finance's Tax Bureau. 33 million yen were loaned to the RAA, which then distributed shares to its members. The RAA established its first brothel on August 28: the Komachien in Ōmori. By December 1945, the RAA owned 34 facilities, 16 of which were "comfort stations". The total number of women employed by the RAA amounted to 55,000 at its peak.

Recruitment
As noted above, the women staffing comfort facilities were initially intended to be those already involved in the "water trade" (a euphemism for the Japanese night-time entertainment business). In practice, there were nowhere near enough prostitutes available, especially in the Tokyo area. The government had cracked down on prostitution late in the war, and many women had fled or been evacuated to the countryside following heavy Allied bombing of strategic centers and residential areas. Tokyo's most famous red-light district, Yoshiwara, had been reduced from a prewar population of 2,000 prostitutes to only a few dozen by the end of the war. Therefore, it was inevitable that efforts were made to recruit from the general population, a tactic that was authorized by the police.

The RAA recruited widely, using carefully worded advertisements posted in front of their offices and in newspapers. These boasted of generous work conditions (free accommodation, meals, and clothes) while avoiding details concerning the nature of the work. Given the widespread poverty and food shortages at the time, and the large number of orphaned and widowed young women, the job offers appeared quite attractive. Most women left upon learning of the deception, but some stayed.

In addition to prostitutes, the RAA recruited a large number of "dancers" who were paid to dance with soldiers. Over time, the distinction between "dancer" and "prostitute" became blurred.

Heavy use was made of independent brokers to recruit women. These brokers, many of whom were affiliated with the yakuza, used less ethical recruitment techniques. The Women's Volunteer Corps (女子挺身隊), a government organization for mobilizing girls and women ages 14–25 for work in factories, was a popular target as many of these women were left unemployed and stranded by the end of the war. Yuki Tanaka reports that groups of these women would be deceived and delivered to brothels.

Despite these deceptive recruitment practices, most women working in the comfort stations ultimately consented to work as prostitutes. There were also women who were unable to leave their brothels, however, because they had been sold by their impoverished families or because they owed money to the brothel. Some comfort stations used "company store" tactics and loan advances (前借) to keep women in debt and unable to leave, something a contemporary GHQ official compared to "enslavement". Contracts forcing women to work at brothels in repayment of debts were eventually abolished by a SCAP order (SCAPIN 642) in January 1946, although some Japanese officials were skeptical of how well such a prohibition could be enforced.

Working conditions
When using the RAA brothels, GIs received a ticket (costing ¥100) (approx. 8 cents at the contemporary unofficial rate, ) upon entry which was then given to the women who serviced them. The women, who usually had between 15 and 60 clients per day, would take the tickets to the station's accounting office each morning where they would receive ¥50 for each ticket. This 50% rate was considerably better than that for prewar licensed prostitutes, who commonly only received 25% of their price. For example, on the first day, one Japanese worker had 47 American customers and received around 2 US dollars.

Women working in RAA facilities faced the sexual violence common to prostitution in the sex trade (especially under foreign military occupation). Women working as dancers were especially vulnerable targets for rape. Additionally, military police and GIs sometimes demanded free service or refunds. The power inequality between Japanese police and Allied soldiers made it difficult for the women to complain. Many of the victims were induced to create a "Labour Union", which then allowed them to be further targeted as the Korean War developed.

Expansion
On October 14, the Japanese police lifted their restrictions on brothels and night clubs, a de facto endorsement of the non-RAA sex industry catering to Occupation troops. The RAA facilities had also been illegal, but had enjoyed police protection. By the end of November, there were 25 non-RAA comfort stations employing 1,500 women in Tokyo (compared to "well over 2,000" for the RAA.) A December 29 GHQ estimate placed the number of prostitutes in Tokyo at 6,000 (not counting street prostitutes, who far outnumbered the number of women working in brothels.)

GHQ and disease control
From the beginning of the Occupation, some Allied military officials cooperated with the Japanese government's system. According to the governors of Chiba and Kanagawa prefectures, American commanders contacted them in September 1945 and requested the establishment of brothels for their troops, offering US military police help if necessary. American medical officers established prophylactic stations in red-light districts and inside the larger brothels that distributed tens of thousands of condoms a week.

Despite these precautions, the problem of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs; primarily gonorrhea and syphilis) became a serious public health issue. By early 1946, nearly a quarter of all US occupation forces were estimated to be infected, and nearly half of some units. The Australian 34th Infantry Brigade had a rate of 55% infection.

In response, GHQ imposed strict STD check procedures for prostitutes, placed certain brothels with high rates of infection off-limits to troops, and helped re-establish clinics and laboratories (many of which had been destroyed during the war) to diagnose infections. Most importantly, the 8th Army authorized the free dispersal of penicillin to infected prostitutes, despite a serious shortage of the drug in the US, and orders from Washington that it only be given to Japanese "as a life saving measure."

End of the system
Not all those in the occupation forces accepted the widespread patronizing of Japanese-sanctioned brothels by US troops. Some unit commanders considered prostitution an "endemic problem that plagued their troops" and tried (with limited success) to prevent their men from fraternizing with the Japanese. By early 1946 military chaplains were condemning SCAP's cooperation, citing violations of War Department policies and the moral degradation of US troops it caused.

The complaints embarrassed Gen. MacArthur, head of the occupation forces, and SCAP issued an order (SCAPIN 642) on January 21 ending licensed brothels for being "in contravention of the ideals of democracy". The following day a GHQ public health official wrote MacArthur with his concerns that news of the STD problem and GHQ cooperation with prostitution would cause problems as they spread back home. SCAPIN 642 ended the RAA's operations, but did not affect "voluntary prostitution" by individuals. As such, non-RAA brothel owners were easily able to circumvent the order by, for example, "renting" space in their former brothels to "voluntary" prostitutes. Ultimately, GHQ responded by making all brothels and other facilities offering prostitution off-limits to Allied personnel on March 25, 1946.

The immediate effects of the end of authorized brothel prostitution was the sudden unemployment of thousands of women, many of whom went on to become "panpan" street prostitutes. The dispersal of prostitution made it harder for GHQ to control STDs and also caused an increase in sexual violence by GIs, from an average of 40 women a day before the SCAP order to an estimated 330 per day immediately after, however these figures cannot be independently confirmed.

By November 1946, the Japanese government had introduced the new akasen (赤線) system in which prostitution was permissible in certain designated areas.

Comfort Woman terminology
Because the RAA and related systems were inspired by Japanese wartime experiences, their structures and terminologies were based on the pre-existing wartime comfort women system. Brothels were referred to with the euphemisms "comfort stations" and "comfort facilities", and prostitutes were referred to as "comfort women". Because of this, many English-language and Japanese scholars of the RAA continue to use those terms in their research.

To what degree the two systems are actually comparable is a matter of debate among historians, however. Some, such as Michael Molasky and Yuki Tanaka, stress the "striking" similarities between the two and refer to the RAA as "systematic exploitation". Chung-hee Sarah Soh, by contrast, notes that women in the RAA were provided with better living conditions than their wartime counterparts. Sarah Kovner states that a difference between the two systems is that RAA members could not be forced into prostitution for Allied occupation troops. Bob Wakabayashi writes though that coercive recruitment was employed in a manner similar to the wartime system.

Ikuhiko Hata indicates that the two systems were comparable in both methods of recruitment and administration in spite of the difference of the presence or absence of intermediary people.

title: Recreation and Amusement Association


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User:Tobiasi0/Mystery Castle

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Das Mystery Castle ist ein Fahrgeschäft (eine Vertikalfahrt vom Modell Ballistic Drop Tower ) im Phantasialand Brühl, welches zusammen mit River Quest und der Themenwelt Klugheim, die Taron und Raik beinhaltet den Themenbereich Mystery bildet. Hersteller der patentierten Antriebstechnologie (Air-Drive) ist das zu Intamin gehörende Unternehmen Ride Trade.

Anders als bei anderen Fahrgeschäften dieser Art findet die Fahrt innerhalb des geschlossenen 65 Meter hohen Turmes statt und wird von einer kompletten Geschichte begleitet.

Die Attraktion gliedert sich in zwei Abschnitte und erzählt die Geschichte der fiktiven Familie von Windhoven.

Zunächst wird der Besucher durch das den Turm umgebende Schloss geführt und auf dem Weg von verschiedenen als Geister und Ungeheuer verkleideten Parkmitarbeitern erschreckt. Die Geschichte des „Kampfes gegen das Böse“, das sich „hoch oben im Turm“ manifestiert und das der Gast mit seiner „positiven Energie“ bekämpfen soll, wird während der Wartezeit innerhalb des Gebäudes weitererzählt.

Fahrtbeschreibung
Für die eigentliche Fahrt nehmen je acht Personen in den sechs Fahrgastträgern Platz. Die Gondeln laufen auf Schienen, die an der Innenwand des Turmes befestigt sind. Als Antrieb kommt ein pneumatisches System zum Einsatz, das den Fahrgastträger mittels umlaufenden Stahlseilen sowohl nach oben als auch nach unten beschleunigen kann. Zur Bremsung am Ende der Fahrt sind im unteren Drittel der Vertikalstrecke Bremsschwerter angebracht, die in Kombination mit Permanentmagneten an den Fahrgastträgern von einer Stromzufuhr unabhängige Wirbelstrombremsen bilden. Für den seltenen Fall, dass eine Gondel mit zu hoher Geschwindigkeit abgeschossen wurde, ist das gleiche System auch am oberen Ende der Schiene zu finden.

Je nach Besucherandrang können zwei, vier oder alle sechs Fahrspuren betrieben werden. Zudem gibt es drei verschiedene Fahrprogramme mit unterschiedlicher Länge, wobei das erste Fahrprogramm nicht mehr gefahren wird. Die Programme beinhalten immer einen Abschuss mit 4g aus der Bodenposition der 48,6 Meter langen Fahrstrecke, worauf ein Absturz in quasi freiem Fall (wirklicher freier Fall kommt nicht vor, da die Gondel stets mit dem Antrieb verbunden bleibt ) aus der höchsten Position folgt. Die Anlage kann die Gondeln nicht nur fallen lassen, sondern auch nach unten schießen. Dabei entsteht eine Abwärtskraft von 1,5 g. Der Fahrgast spürt dies, indem ihn die Schulterbügel förmlich nach unten ziehen. Die Fahrt läuft bei fast vollständiger Dunkelheit ab. Maximal erreicht die Attraktion eine Kapazität von 1400 Personen pro Stunde. Vormittags nutzt der Park das intensivere Fahrprogramm 2, im Verlauf des Tages ca. um 14.00 Uhr wird auf das längere Fahrprogramm 3 gewechselt. Das Gebäude besteht aus dem 65 Meter hohen Mittelturm, der zu fast einem Drittel aus Stahlbeton besteht und auf einer zwei Meter dicken Bodenplatte ruht. Das 25 Meter hohe Basisgebäude bietet Platz für die Technik und den Schlossrundgang. Auf dem Dach des Gebäudes sind Druckbehälter als Pufferspeicher installiert, die durch vier Kompressoren befüllt werden.

2015 wurden alle Soundtracks von IMAScore überarbeitet und neu abgemischt.

Weblinks

 * Das Mystery Castle auf der Website des Phantasialands
 * Bericht über die Technik von Mystery Castle
 * Parkeigener Bericht über die Technik von Mystery Castle

title: User:Tobiasi0/Mystery Castle


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Provinces of Cambodia

Cambodia is divided into 25 provinces (ខេត្ត, khétt ). The capital Phnom Penh is not a province but an "autonomous municipality" (រាជធានី, réachthéani ; lit. 'capital'), equivalent to a province governmentally and administered at the same level as the other 24 provinces.

Phnom Penh has both the highest population and the highest population density of all provinces, but is the second smallest in land area. The largest province by area is Mondulkiri and the smallest is Kep which is also the least populated province. Mondulkiri has the lowest population density.

Each province is administered by a governor, who is nominated by the Ministry of Interior, subject to approval by the Prime Minister.

Provinces are divided into districts (ស្រុក, srŏk). The districts in Phnom Penh are called khan (ខណ្ឌ) normally written as for addresses in English followed by the districts' names (Ex: Khan Chamkar Mon; lit. 'Chamkar Mon District'). The number of districts in each province varies, from two in the smallest provinces to 14 in Battambang, Prey Veng, and Siem Reap. Further subdivision levels are communes (ឃុំ khum), and further subdivided into villages (ភូមិ, phum). In Phnom Penh, sangkat (សង្កាត់) is used in the place of khum and, similar to khan, normally preferred for writing addresses in English (Ex: Sangkat Mittapheap; lit. 'Mittapheap Commune').

History

 * 1974: The Khmer Rouge government did away with the former Cambodian traditional administrative divisions. Instead of provinces, Democratic Kampuchea was divided into seven geographic zones (តំបន់, tâmbán): the Northwest, the North, the Northeast, the East, the Southwest, the West, and the Centre. These zones were derived from divisions established by the Khmer Rouge when they fought against the Khmer Republic during the Cambodian Civil War.

 * 2008: On 22 December 2008, King Norodom Sihamoni signed a decree that changed the municipalities of Kep, Pailin and Sihanoukville into provincial municipalities, as well as adjusting several provincial borders.

 * 2013: On 31 December 2013, King Norodom Sihamoni signed a decree that split Kampong Cham into two provinces: Kampong Cham (west of the Mekong River) and Tboung Khmum (east of the Mekong River).

 * 2018: In September 2018, Interior Minister Sar Kheng proposed establishing two more provinces, with areas taken from Kandal, Mondulkiri, and Ratanakiri. Prime Minister Hun Sen rejected the plan.

title: Provinces of Cambodia


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Talk:Atlanta murders of 1979–1981

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110131051939/http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-11/justice/atlanta.murders.poll.ireport_1_atlanta-child-murders-two-life-sentences-killings?_s=PM:CRIME to http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-11/justice/atlanta.murders.poll.ireport_1_atlanta-child-murders-two-life-sentences-killings?_s=PM:CRIME
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This doesn't make sense
From the article:

"During a stakeout on May 22 ... an officer heard a splash beneath a bridge." "Two days later, on May 24, ... the body of Nathaniel Cater was found ..." "The body had extensive water damage and may have been in the water for up to two weeks." "Based on this evidence, including the police officer's hearing of the splash, police believed that Williams had killed Cater and disposed of his body while the police were nearby."

So the police believed a body with 2 weeks-worth of water damage had been dumped in the water just 2 days prior? That seems unlikely. Captainllama (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Good catch. The source actually says that the body of Curtis Walker had been in the water approximately two weeks, not the body of Nathaniel Cater. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The date Nathaniel Cater went missing was May 22, and the date his body was found was May 24th. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Issues people have with the investigation and/or the trial and conviction of Wayne Williams
This article does not do a good enough job addressing the concerns raised by of critics who allege that the police and prosecutor, feeling intense pressure to close the case, tried ands convicted Wayne Williams on weak evidence and may have convicted the wrong man. Some critics even believe in "conspiracy theories" that others would describe as baseless or at least implausible. One of these was the basis for a TV movie on the Atlanta murders. As the article stands, it indirectly mentions conspiracy theories about the case, dances around the idea that not everyone believes they got the right man, but does not directly address the issue as I think the article should. Looking at the article on Wayne Williams, it does a much better job ion addressing the issues a significant number of people have with the investigation and later trial and conviction of Wayne Williams. The controversy section in that article does a much better job explaining the controversy then this article does. While we don't necessarily have to also have a controversy section in this article, we could do a much better job explaining what critics have concerns over regarding the investigation and/or trial of Wayne Williams. Some of this info does appear to exist in the article currently but could be expanded on such as in the Trial section, adding more issues raised about the prosecutors case and/or conduct. Also, being cleared and more in depth about issue raised over how the case was investigated by the police and FBI would help. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Remember, the jury of his peers convicted him, hot the police or the District Attorney's office - they charge him with a crime - only a jury (or judge for bench-trials) do the convicting.50.111.1.254 (talk) 05:17, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * As it stands, the article does a pretty good job of covering things with due weight. We cannot spend too much space explaining conspiracy theories without violating the policy on due weight and fringe views. It is certainly not our place to overly emphasize people's criticisms or "address the concerns" of critics, but rather to state what reliable sources say with due weight. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 00:31, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Why have a photo of the Omni Coliseum?
It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article? Reluctant to delete in case I'm missing something.

Gilgamesh4 (talk) 09:43, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I was thinking the exact same thing. As a possible explanation I thought maybe the benefit concert in 1981 was held there and the photo was part of a since-removed reference, but the concert was held at the Atlanta Civic Center, not at the Omni Coliseum.2A02:8084:A80:7E80:91F3:2F81:354F:262E (talk) 11:52, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Likewise wondering this. That photo makes no sense without context -- which has yet to arrive almost 18 months after first discussion -- and if none can be provided it should be removed. 207.98.197.102 (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Archives
There's an archive page for this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Atlanta_murders_of_1979%E2%80%9381/Archive_1) that isn't linked here. Does anyone know how to link it? All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 01:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've corrected the error with the archive page and the link now works. Libertybison (talk) 03:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Wayne-Williams-Mugshot.jpg

== You need to research if these kids were died on April 25th or 1932 these kids are not alive one of them are you have to research and see one of those kids were alive what you contact them please give me their number ==

Would you have to do is your teacher or whoever you're doing this with will have to print a paper of the names ages gears or this was done after that you'll look and research what you have to do to find out who this one person is and how to get their number @aspensapp 2600:1700:42D1:61D0:4941:7996:BF63:524F (talk) 22:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Atlanta murders of 1979–1981


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User:The zoro

Hello!

I'm The_zoro, and I like to write stuff in the wikipedia. Hope you will ahve fun while doing the same :)

--The_ZoRo 20:25, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

title: User:The zoro