text:
Talk:Raphael Holinshed

Chronicles link
Is it OK to link to an online edition of the Chronicles? Please check out the link and tell me what you think! --Cobwebber 11:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Somebody from the University of Pennsylvania just told me "Everything on our website is copyright protected by The Trustees of the University of Pennsylvania". So I guess I'd better remove the link to Chronicles. Same thing in the Reginald Wolfe article. -Cobwebber 14:01, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi, Cobwebber! Even if the material is under the Univ of Pennsylvania's copyright, there's no reason we can't include a hyperlink to their site. (Purely as a side note, although they may claim copyright, they can't really own copyright on scans of public domain works--but that's a whole different battle that we don't have to concern ourselves with). So, anyway, I'll restore the link. PRiis 00:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John Leland's "Dank Chronic"
The reference to Leland's "dank chronic" is obviously a reference to marijuana, and also obviously vandalism. Can someone please fix this? I can't determine if there is an earlier revision to which we can draw from.99.231.168.66 (talk) 07:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Title
The correct title of this article is Holinshed's Chronicles. One should realise that in reading "He became known only by the Chronicles of England, Scotland and Ireland, and all the information we have about him is related to this work.'" The subject is Holinshed's Chronicles. --Wetman (talk) 04:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The Original titles of the work is Chronicles of England, Scotlande, and Irelande. The name Holinshed's Chronicles is scholarly title given to it for convilience (pardon me for bad spelling), not the original title.From Tom,Dick and Larry

New article
I've turned Holinshed's Chronicles, which was a redirect, into a real article, as it would be possible to build a substantive article on this, whereas we know little about the subject of this article. Help needed, :-) Dougweller (talk) 13:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Future Edits
Greetings! I am a student doing a project on this page. There will be many edits to the page in the coming next few days based on research that I have done. Thank you! --JudgmentofAlice (talk) 00:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC) Please contact me or my professor with any questions, comments, or concerns! My professors user name is

title: Talk:Raphael Holinshed


text:
User:Cobwebber

Hi! I am quite new here. One of my interests is History... --Cobwebber 11:40, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Time to log in again before the decade is over (I'm still interested in history and fighting an honest fight with the Book Creator at the moment). --Cobwebber (talk) 18:36, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Cobwebber


text:
Bay Area (disambiguation)

Bay Area most commonly refers to the San Francisco Bay Area, the urban area surrounding the San Francisco Bay in Northern California.

Bay Area may also refer to:
 * Guangdong–Hong Kong–Macau Greater Bay Area, an area around Guangdong, Macau and Hong Kong
 * Monterey Bay Area, an area around Monterey Bay, California
 * Tampa Bay area, an area around Tampa Bay, Florida
 * Galveston Bay Area, an area around Galveston Bay, Texas
 * Traverse Bay Area, an area around Grand Traverse Bay, Michigan

title: Bay Area (disambiguation)


text:
Angra (band)

Angra is a Brazilian power metal band formed in 1991. They have released ten regular studio albums, five EPs, and three live CD/DVDs to date. Led by Rafael Bittencourt, the band has gained a degree of popularity in Japan and Europe.

Formation
Angra was formed in November 1991 by vocalist André Matos and guitarists Rafael Bittencourt and André Linhares, in a collaboration with music promoter and Rock Brigade magazine owner Antônio "Toninho" Pirani. The trio was joined by drummer Marco Antunes, a former bandmate of Bittencourt's, and bassist Luís Mariutti. Bittencourt and Matos were the primary songwriters in the band's early days. Early in 1992, Linhares left the band and was replaced by André Hernandes, who quit in the same year to be replaced by Kiko Loureiro. With Loureiro in the line-up, Angra recorded their first demo tape Reaching Horizons, which was released in 1993 through the German label Limb Music. Among the tracks, "Queen of the Night", originally titled "Rainha" ("Queen"), had been previously composed for Bittencourt and Antunes' previous band; and "Evil Warning" was written during Hernandes' brief stint as bassist.

Angels Cry
During the recording sessions for their first album Angels Cry, Marcos Antunes left the band. A number of session drummers, including Alex Holzwarth were used to finish the album. Ricardo Confessori was later installed as a permanent replacement. This line-up change established a stable line-up lasted from 1993 to 2000. Angels Cry was recorded at Gamma Ray guitarist Kai Hansen's studio in Hamburg, Germany. Besides Hansen, the album included guest performances by Heavens Gate guitarist Sascha Paeth and Dirk Schlächter.

The album was released in Brazil in 1993 through Eldorado Records and contained a number of classical influences as well as a cover of Kate Bush's "Wuthering Heights". The album had some success both in Brazil as well as Japan. The band were managed by Antonio Pirani, also editor of Rock Brigade magazine. Due to the album's success in Japan, the Evil Warning EP was released in 1994 through Victor, which included remixed versions of songs "Evil Warning", "Angels Cry", "Carry On" and "Wuthering Heights". In the following year the album was made available in Germany through Dream Circle, and in France by CNR Music.

Holy Land
In 1996 Angra opened for AC/DC in Brazil and was invited to the inaugural Brazilian Monsters of Rock Festival. Following the festival, the band embarked on a Brazilian tour, with further dates in Europe in 1995. Holy Land - an ambitious project involving orchestration, choirs, and Brazilian rhythms - was released in 1996. The production was handled by Sascha Paeth and Charlie Bauerfiend. Holy Land proved successful and the Japanese Victor release, which included the bonus track "Queen of the Night", went gold. The band toured Japan for the first time following the album's success, while in France the single "Make Believe" was released. That same year the EP Freedom Call was released, containing cover versions of Judas Priest´s "Painkiller". After the tour in support of the album, the band released a six-track live album Holy Live, recorded in Paris in 1996. The Holy Box was released in 1998 by Lucretia Records (Italy), which included seven acoustic tracks.

Fireworks (1998–2000)
In 1998 the band released the single Lisbon, followed by the album Fireworks, produced by Chris Tsangarides. Fireworks was a departure from Angra's earlier experimental sound, focusing more on a neo-classical metal sound and lacking the Brazilian rhythms that were included in Holy Land. The album was the first for the Steamhammer label and appeared in North America through Century Media. A lengthy world tour was set up in support for the album. The band appeared at the Buenos Aires edition of Monsters of Rock, while they co-headlined shows in Europe with Time Machine and Stratovarius in 1999. Bruce Dickinson made a guest appearance during the Paris show, while the band also performed at the Wacken Open Air festival.

Matos departure and Rebirth (2000–2004)
During mid-2000 Angra split, parting ways with vocalist Andre Matos who took bassist Luis Mariutti and drummer Ricardo Confessori with him. In March 2001, the two remaining members, Kiko Loureiro and Rafael Bittencourt, announced the new line-up that included Symbols' vocalist Edu Falaschi, drummer Aquiles Priester and bassist Felipe Andreoli.

This line-up began recording instantly and the album Rebirth was released in 2001, produced by Dennis Ward. The album was both a critical and commercial success in Brazil and internationally, selling over 100,000 copies worldwide. The album went gold in Brazil that same year. The EP Hunters and Prey was released in 2002 which included acoustic takes of Rebirth songs, as well as other new material, a cover of "Mama" by Genesis, and their first song with lyrics in Portuguese, "Caça e Caçador" ("Hunter and Prey").

Angra would play live in Japan, appearing in Rock Machine in Spain, Wacken Open Air in Germany and ProgPower in Atlanta, Georgia, which was their first visit to the United States. Following the tour, the band submitted their version of Kashmir to the compilation The Music Remains The Same (A Metal Tribute to Led Zeppelin).

Temple of Shadows (2004–2006)
Temple of Shadows recording sessions started in January 2004 at Mosh Studios in São Paulo, once again produced by Dennis Ward. The album featured guest vocalists Kai Hansen (Gamma Ray), Sabine Edelsbacher (Edenbridge), Hansi Kürsch (Blind Guardian) and Brazilian folk and fusion legend Milton Nascimento. Temple of Shadows was a concept album based around a character known as The Shadow Hunter, a crusader knight disputing the expansionist ideals of the Catholic Church in the eleventh century.

The band toured Brazil and Europe, headlining shows in Southern Europe throughout Spain, Italy, and France in February 2005. For the first time since its creation, the band played at a UK show at The Mean Fiddler in London, supported by DragonForce, and later joined Finnish band Nightwish for the Japanese dates in March. The band then went to Taiwan and after, for the first time, they played in Oceania, headlining shows in Australia. Angra resumed the Brazilian tour and then returned to Europe for the Lorca Roch Festival, Live in Italy and Bull Rock Festival, sharing stages with big heavy metal names like Iron Maiden.

Aurora Consurgens, management problems, Confessori's return (2006–2009)
Later in 2006, Angra worked once again with producer Dennis Ward on their new album, entitled Aurora Consurgens, focusing on a non-concept album as Rebirth was. Instead, they pursued a close relative of the idea, a theme album. Also in 2006, Fábio Laguna composed a solo progressive instrumental album called Freakeys along with drummer Aquiles Priester and bassist Felipe Andreoli. In mid-2007, the band took a break due to an unresolved situation with its manager, who was also the owner of the Angra brand. As result, other non-resolved situations between the members arose, culminating in an indefinite hiatus until a solution was reached.

In 2008, singer Edu Falaschi was originally reported as saying that Angra "has been terminated," but this was later revealed to be both a misunderstanding and a misreporting of his words. Edu later clarified what was meant by his earlier comments: "Angra is not done; we're taking a break, a pause. The band is going through some difficult management issues, and all of us are doing our best to get back on the road." In 2009, the band's official site was taken down. Instead, the home page announced that the site was under construction and news would be released soon. In March 2009, the band's official site announced the return of drummer Ricardo Confessori after a 9-year hiatus to Angra, replacing Aquiles Priester, who left the band to dedicate full force to his band Hangar. The band went out on tour along with fellow Brazilian band Sepultura during 2009.

Aqua and departure of Falaschi and Confessori (2010–2014)
In the beginning of 2010, Angra started writing songs for their upcoming yet unnamed album due out in mid-2010. The album was composed partly at the members' houses and partly at Confessori's ranch, where they rehearsed and improved the arrangements of the new songs. In February, they came into Norcal Studios in São Paulo, to start recordings. The band members made home videos from the writing/recording process and released them to the fans almost weekly.

On July 5 the band unveiled the cover and track list of the new album, named Aqua. On July 10, the first single "Arising Thunder" was released. On July, 15 a new song, called "Lease of Life", was played for the first time on Brazilian radio station Kiss FM. The radio program featured an interview with Loureiro and Falaschi, followed by a high quality play of the song. On August 11, Aqua was officially released in Japan and the Aqua Tour began with a series of pocket shows, being followed by a Brazilian tour through several venues around the country.

On May 23, 2012, Edu Falaschi issued an open letter in which he announced his departure from Angra. Despite not explaining why, he said he would focus on his future projects, including Almah. Management of the band approached Matos for a possible return, but he declined. Fabio Lione (ex-Labyrinth, Rhapsody of Fire) became the third vocalist for the band.

In 2014, drummer Ricardo Confessori announced he would end his second tenure with the band. He was later replaced by 23-year-old Bruno Valverde.

Secret Garden, Kiko's departure, and Ømni (2014–2021)
In November 2014, the band announced their eighth studio album, Secret Garden, that was released on December 17 in Japan and on January 16, 2015 in Brazil and Europe. On September 19, 2015, Angra performed at Rock in Rio with special guests Doro Pesch and Dee Snider. A third, surprise guest was also announced mid-show: lead guitarist Marcelo Barbosa, who was revealed as Loureiro's touring replacement after the latter had joined Megadeth earlier in the year. The band released their ninth studio album, Ømni, on February 16, 2018 worldwide.

Former vocalist Andre Matos died on 8 June 2019. A heart attack was cited as the cause.

In 2021, the band released a graphic novel based on the history of the album Temple of Shadows, called "O Templo das Sombras".

Cycles of Pain (since 2021)
The band announced that their tenth album, Cycles of Pain, would be released on November 1, 2023 in Japan and on November 3 elsewhere. It will be their first album released under Atomic Fire.

Musical style
Their musical style has been described as power metal, progressive metal, and neoclassical metal.

Current members

 * Rafael Bittencourt – guitars, keyboards, piano, backing vocals (1991–present), co-lead vocals (2012–present)
 * Felipe Andreoli – bass, keyboards, piano, backing vocals (2001–present)
 * Fabio Lione – lead vocals (2013–present)
 * Bruno Valverde – drums (2014–present)
 * Marcelo Barbosa – guitars (2015–present)

Former members

 * André Linhares – guitars, backing vocals (1991–1992)
 * Marco Antunes – drums (1991–1993)
 * Andre Matos – lead vocals, keyboards, piano (1991–2000; died 2019)
 * Luís Mariutti – bass (1991–2000)
 * André Hernandes – guitars, backing vocals (1992)
 * Kiko Loureiro – guitars, keyboards, piano, backing vocals (1992–2015)
 * Aquiles Priester – drums (2001–2008)
 * Edu Falaschi – lead vocals, acoustic guitar (in Unplugged shows) (2000–2012)
 * Ricardo Confessori – drums (1993–2000, 2009–2014)

Former support members

 * Alex Holzwarth – drums (1993, studio)
 * Fábio Ribeiro - keyboards (1992 – 1993, 1999 Fireworks tour)
 * Fábio Laguna – keyboards, backing vocals (2001–2007, touring)
 * Dio Lima (Opus V) - keyboards (2022, Rebirth 20th Anniversary Tour)

Demos

 * Reaching Horizons (Demo, 1992)

Extended plays (EPs)

 * Evil Warning (1994)
 * Live Acoustic at FNAC (1995)
 * Freedom Call (1996)
 * Acoustic... And more (1998)
 * Hunters and Prey (2002) - No. 85 Japanese charts
 * AudioArena Originals: Angra-EP (2017)

Compilations

 * Best Reached Horizons (2012) - No. 90 Japanese charts
 *  On The Backs of Angels (2018)

Live albums

 * Holy Live, Recorded 1996 (1997) - No. 87 Japanese albums charts
 * Rebirth World Tour – Live in São Paulo, Recorded 2001 (CD & DVD, 2002) - No. 78 Japanese charts (CD); No. 156 Japanese charts (DVD)
 * Angels Cry 20th Anniversary Tour, Recorded 2013 (CD & DVD, 2013) - No. 80 Japanese charts (CD); No. 209 Japanese charts (DVD)
 * Ømni Live, Recorded 2018 (CD & DVD, 2021)
 * Sonastério Ilumina (2023)

Singles

 * "Carry On" (1994)
 * "Make Believe" (1996)
 * "Lisbon" (1998)
 * "Rainy Nights" (1998)
 * "Acid Rain" (2001) (demo version)
 * "Wishing Well" (2004) - No. 85 Brazilian charts
 * "The Course of Nature" (2006) (free download only)
 * "Arising Thunder" (2010) (free download only)
 * "Lease of Life" (2010) (free download only)
 * "Newborn Me" (2014) (free download only)
 * "Travelers of Time" (2018)
 * "Black Widow's Web" (feat Sandy Lima and Alisa White-Gluz) (2018)
 * "War Horns" (feat Kiko Loureiro) (2018)
 * "Hollow (Aqua 2020 Remix)" (2020)
 * "Ride into the Storm" (2023)
 * "Tide of Changes Part II" (feat Vanessa Moreno) (2023)
 * "Gods of the World" (2023)

title: Angra (band)


text:
Talk:Unix philosophy

Cleanup
This page needs a serious cleanup, I have started to remove irrelevant fluff and try to make the page clean and more in line with the unix philosphy itself ;) Specially the section about "worse is better" needs a big cleanup/rewrite, but I will leave that for later.

OK, any suggestions for a cleanup? To me the article pretty much fits the UNIX philosophy. A one sentence introduction, and a few bullets each by a person or type of philosophy. So, does this need more text? Also, I would like to hear comments on the "no news is good news" aspect of the UNIX philosophy.

 * I think a safer approach - rather than typically going out on a limb and trying to contentiously define something - would be to report on what others have said, pointing out there is quite a lot of talk about the "Unix philosophy" and many people have expressed it in many ways over the years. I'd take pains to make that very clear from the outset - that the article is about the growth of the concept of a "Unix philosophy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 03:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing the clean-up tags since nobody bothered cleaning-up. If somebody actually wants to contribute to the discussion and do something about the article, feel free to re-tag for clean-up. Breadtk (talk) 04:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm writing long after most of the conversation on this Talk page, to explain s.t. I just did. Namely, there was a para mentioning Don Norman's criticism of the Unix philosophy at the end of the section entitled "Origin".  I don't believe it belonged there (indeed, I had to read Norman's original article to understand what it was about), so I started a new section entitled "Criticism" and moved the para about Norman there. Mcswell (talk) 02:06, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

The reference for ''Norman, Don (1981). "The truth about Unix: The user interface is horrid" (PDF). Datamation (27(12)).'' links to a PDF that is only available after login. 195.212.29.166 (talk) 12:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

McIlroy Inventor
McIlroy did NOT invent pipes - he SUGGESTED them. Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie invented them.

 * Such semantic significance seems spurious/superficial. Richard Taytor (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Pike's Notes
Pike's notes don't belong in a discussion of Unix philosophy. They pertain to "engineering philosophy" perhaps but there is nothing in them to make them specific to Unix. Nothing. Also: Thompson didn't rephrase the Aussie's rules - it's the other way around.

 * Please sign your post by typing four tildes ( ~ )! And yes, that was my reflection too: Pike's notes belong to a pretty universal programming philosophy, but they cannot easily be reinterpreted as being part of Unix philosophy. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 08:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

No news is good news
Yes, in agreement with the cleanup part, I also believe that a missing UNIX philosophy is "No news is good news". Things like cronjobs should not spit out a bunch of verbiage unless there is an error. Programs like grep will be quiet AND exit with a non-zero status if the filter does not find anything. Utilization of stdout and stderr. Putting all irrelevant information in /dev/null when necessary.

I believe this is a very important UNIX philosophy that seems to be disappearing over time. I believe it is worthy of a mention in the main article.

 * Yes but it's equally borne out of the fact they were using teletype printers and didn't want excess verbiage there. Thompson is beautifully cryptic but there were other factors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 02:52, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

 * This is mentioned in the Eric Raymond section of this article ("if a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing"). 4.242.147.174 20:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I find this point also important to mention. It makes a lot of scripts simpler. Imagine every command in a script would output something. And a workaround to mute commands would add complexity. This point should get added into the main article. 79.226.252.10 23:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

"Learning from mistakes"
I was about to correct the grammatical weakness in:

 * "It is surprising that both the X Window System (led by one of the main Multics contributors) and the EMACS editor, were designed by former MIT graduate students after the Multics system had failed, that makes some Unix hackers wonder if MIT systems researchers ever learn from their mistakes"

but then I realized that this statement is unnecessarily pejorative towards MIT researchers and adds nothing to the discussion of Unix Philosophy. I'll remove it unless anyone objects. --Steve Summit 03:51, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it fits the Unix philosophy quite well... Lost Goblin 20:09, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Is that an objection to removing the sentence? Anybody else? Steve Summit 14:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I object, but I agree that maybe it can be made less POV, but then, Unix philosphy is a very subjective thing and it's not suposed to be inpartial. --Lost Goblin 16:15, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Ok, I wrote those paragraphs. The problem with UNIX today is that the MIT researchers and projects such as GNU are destroying The UNIX Philosophy.  These paragraphs were my attempt to be critical of this perversion of UNIX.

 * UNIX was an attempt to get away from the MIT philosophy and bloatware of Multics. Now the GNU project and its minions have written 7 out of 9 of the largest (bloatware) software packages for UNIX/LINUX (see http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/ for details.) --Don Gillies 14:45, 12 Sept 2005 (PST)

 * What's so bad about Emacs, X Windows et al? They're pretty modular, stable, and understood. Plus, they work darn well. --Maru (talk) 03:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * What's so bad about Emacs? LMAO You need to study and absorb more Unix philosophy! Modular, stable, understood? Reread your McIlroy. Concentrate on the bits about 'small programs working well together'. Then look at BWK's work with Lorinda Cherry. And with Aho on awk. And so forth.

 * I'm not going to comment on the quality of those various projects, that is not really what this page is about; but one things is clear to anyone that has even a basic knowledge of Unix philosphy: those projects are in direct conflict with the most fundamental Unix principles. Dont take my word for it, here is what ken has to say: "The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't do anything for you." Lost Goblin 19:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph about GNU vs. Unix entirely. It is simply too POV to be salvaged. At most, perhaps a sentence along the lines of "GNU software, which replaces many common Unix utilities, is often considered too large and complex to fit into the Unix philosophy". Haikupoet 20:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I think many people would consider "GNU software does not fit into the Unix philosophy" as an observation rather than an opinion. Most adherents of the unix philosophy would even say that GNU goes directly against the Unix philosophy. Of course the Unix Philosophy can be considered a POV, but there is a clear disagreement between Unix philosophy and GNU. So if what we are descriving here is the POV of the Unix Philosphy, I would think it should be acceptable to mention how it sees GNU software. Lost Goblin 22:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes but 'Unix philosophy' itself is an opinion!

 * Wellllllll... What it comes down to is that the section that was written was POV and had to go -- it was a rant, pure and simple. It is fundamentally true that many GNU programs don't really stick to the Unix philosophy in terms of design, though there's a world of difference between pointing that out and outright accusing it of being "bloatware". I'm not aware that there is a non-POV definition of the term -- a raw count of KLoCs such as was cited in the rant certainly isn't a particularly useful demonstration of what is and isn't bloatware (something I would associate with unnecessary features, in which case you'd have a case for Emacs, and excessive layers of abstraction). Point is there's no place for value judgements in an encyclopedia unless you have solid definitions and quantitative proof. (I point out the article that I wrote at long range locators -- such devices have been tested and examined and can be fairly conclusively proven to all but true-believers that they are incapable of functioning as claimed.) And one could easily argue that the Unix philosophy in its purest form is obsolete, but it wouldn't belong here either. What it comes down to is that if the basic point is to be restored in the article, it has to be stated as the opinion of some observers and/or a direct quote from someone like Richard Stallman who is responsible for the design principles for such programs. Haikupoet 03:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I still think you are missing the point, this article is about the Unix Philosophy, and I think it's up to the adherents of such philosophy to decide what they think of GNU software; and the rant(I agree it was a rant) was rather representative of the views of adherents of the Unix Philosophy, hence relevant even if not very well articulated. If you want "quantitative proff" do a survey among people that believes in the Unix Philosophy and see what they tell you about GNU, I know quite many such people, and what they will tell you won't be pretty Lost Goblin 16:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Of course any such comments should not be presented as facts here, but as the result of applying the unix philosophy to GNU software, obviously other people and other philosophies will have very different views of GNU software. Lost Goblin 16:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * While we are at, why don't we cadge shamelessly from Raymond and Gancarz and the others, and present their opinions on VMS, DOS, Windows, Macs, the BSDs etc. degree of adherence to, and implications for, the classical Unix philosophy? We could have a whole section with subheading for each different family of OSs!  It could practically double the size of the article, adding mountains of valuable content! --Maru (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Are you volunteering? And GNU deserves special treatment because it is very closely related to Unix and has misleed many people about the Unix Philosophy. --Lost Goblin 21:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Not at all. My point was that any such sections are hopelessly POV, and that a compare and contrast with other OSs would probably not be productive. Even if it was, it would belong on OS advocacy, not here.  Now, an (more) example(s) of Unix philosophy from Unix or Linux would be good, but I don't have the time to add any.  Besides, the references contain plenty of those. --Maru (talk) 23:56, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * You're half right. GNU could be considered worthy of special treatment because of its Unix connections. As far as it misleading people about the Unix philosophy, that's less a neutral statement than a bucket of kerosene to throw on a flamewar that, for the most part, is not currently being fought. In any case, one interesting point about GNU is that its ethos developed separately from the Unix world -- Emacs, most notably, is not, never has been, and never will be an exemplar of the Unix way; it's a naturalized citizen of that world. GNU may be part of the Unix world, but it comes from the world of ITS and TOPS-10. Just some comments that might be of use in the debate... --Haikupoet 02:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, one of the interesting things is (I've added this to Editor war as well) that Emacs could be seen as an unorthodox example of Unix philosophy, since it is deliberately structured as a core interpreter with a few utilities, and all the extra stuff bundled up into modules that can be loaded and unloaded as needed (unlike vim, where the extra functionality has to be written into the core program itself, leading to a pretty large program.) Just to provoke some thought.  --Maru (talk) 03:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * A fair point -- then again, my text editor of choice is BBEdit so I don't have a whole lot of familiarity with Emacs :-) In some ways it's very much a matter of perspective. The fact remains that an encyclopedia article is not the place to push an anti-GNU agenda -- words like "perversion", "bloatware", and "misled" have been thrown around here, and I don't think that such loaded language is a good sign for the future of the discussion. On to a new section -- this is nested way too deep. Haikupoet 04:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Framing the GNU debate (from one perspective)
As I see it what we have here is a difference of opinion over what is an appropriate level of discussion within the article over the differences between the GNU and Unix methodologies. The sticking point is what appears to some to be accusatory and emotional language within the article deriding GNU for not sticking closely to the Unix philosophy. Unfortunately there seems to be an element of zealotry involved here -- the anti-GNU partisans (for technical reasons, thankfully) seem determined to expose GNU software as a waste of resources, while those opposing the language in the article oppose it on POV grounds rather than any particular espousal of the opposite side. I do think there is a way of stating that GNU software doesn't always measure up to the Unix philosophy as the opinions of some members of the community, and I don't have any objection to restoring at least that much of the original section if there's some way to write it that we can all agree on. It also occurs to me that given the widespread use of KISS techniques in the original Unix kernels, the Unix philosophy, such as it is, would also take a very pragmatic attitude towards tool use. As a last point, I might state that nobody's ever bothered to rewrite the syntax of dd(1) over the years even though it's a hideous joke created by a prankster with IBM on the brain -- for whatever reason everyone chose to leave well enough alone. The Unix philosophy, above all, seems to be very accepting of strangeness and cruft as long as it doesn't cripple the design. Haikupoet 04:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I think you are still missing the point. "sticking closely to the Unix philosophy", more like being directly opposed to the core values of the Unix Philosophy. And this has nothing to do with resources, after all once of the Unix core values is "when in doubt use brute force"(Ken). And yes, pragmatism is one of the Unix Philosophy core values, that is why there are no universal rules in Unix, except keeping things simple, and sometimes keeping things simple means that things are ugly("worse is better"). GNU on the other hand builds and builds, and changes everything at every release with total disregard of simplicity and any other Unix principles.(which is perfectly fine, but puts it directly at odds with the Unix Philosophy) Lost Goblin 08:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The 'brute force' bit was a JOKE for JH Chrissakes. DUH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

 * The smartass answer to this is to point out that "GNU's Not Unix". Haikupoet 04:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Playing games with acronyms is not helpful. From gnu.org: "The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete UNIX like operating system which is free software: the GNU system" Lost Goblin 10:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

 * There can be several interpretations of 'not Unix' of which yours is only one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

 * If you want an article entitled 'GNU Philosophy' then by all means put it in. Otherwise mention of GNU in the context of Unix is definitely not appropriate. Reeks more of jihad thinking than anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.92.203.237 (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

 * Agree as to inappropriate with GNU in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.209.23 (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

esr book section
The ESR book section is pretty long, particularly because of the list of rules. Would anyone object if I moved them to the main article at The Art of Unix Programming, and summarized the book in a more concise form here? --Jon Dowland 23:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Nope. Now that there is an article for it, the rules should probably go there. I'd suggest keeping one or two in the summary tho'. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 01:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The ESR rules are still there 3.5 years later, and I suggest they stay. The book is by the most readily available text on Unix philosophy available today; anyone researching the Unix philosophy will encounter them. JöG (talk) 17:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Keep it. It's definitely not off-topic and it's the only part of article that has any substance. "Separate mechanism and policy" sounds like example of separation of concerns that UNIX allegedly excelled in. It would be good if somebody supplied more meaningful commentary on UNIX design from notable sources (and ESR is definitely one) 5.173.113.180 (talk) 22:52, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Knuth
Isn't the premature optimization quote normally attributed to Donald Knuth, of The Art of Computer Programming fame? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.14.190 (talk • contribs)

It is not clear to me to whom this quote is attributed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._A._R._Hoare —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.222.164 (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Strunk/White?
I think a citation is necessary if it's going to be claimed that 'Elements of Style' has a direct influence on Unix. I think in such case the citation would be directly attributable to Ken. I think in such case most of us would have heard of it by now. I think in lieu of such a citation that the reference be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.203.237 (talk • contribs)

 * Sorry but this is downright ridiculous. BWK can't cite influences as he had nothing to do with creating the system - he only proselytised it.

 * I am sure Brian mentions Strunk&White as a very strong influence, I'm not so sure about others being so specific, but it certainly was a popular book at the labs. --Lost Goblin 00:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Right. If you believe this to be true then find a reliable reference. Otherwise you might as well cite Lewis Carroll.

 * Agreed. Claiming BWK had no influence is - well, it's rather typical. His office was next to that of dmr and ken. He's the one who came up with the name.

Software Tools
There should be mention (more than a mere mention) of BWK's Software Tools series. This series serves to elucidate the Unix 'idea' and get it 'out there' independent of OS or programming language. What would BWK think if he saw this page and saw that Software Tools wasn't even mentioned? (I know what he'd think: he'd shrug it off with a chuckle.) BWK is one of the finest human beings to come out of that era at Bell Labs and one of the finest pedagogical talents ever and without a significant section on his contributions this piece cannot be considered complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.203.237 (talk • contribs)
 * I agree. --Lost Goblin 02:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Me too. But still no mention of it? Software Tools - along with BWK's work on the C book - is what got the message out. It's what proved the "Unix philosophy" wasn't something limited to Unix.

 * Once BWK wrote the C book and really 'got it', he was off to the races. He turned everything into C: RATFOR, BASIC, even his hate object Pascal. The impact of those books cannot be overestimated.

 * Possb somewhat hard to assert with proper extrefs, else danger of WP:OR, but List of Unix utilities, a list of progs to be considered. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 17:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I made a search for Unix philosophy on WP to add links from articles towards this article, to find stuff in the line of this philosophy one may use what links here for the article. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 17:51, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Contextual Design
I replaced "contextual design" with "monolithic design". Unix's composability is completely compatible with contextual design. I saw no cite for the sentence I changed, so I have no idea where the idea that composability and contextual design are somehow at odds. In fact, I would hold up Unix as a paradigm of contextual design, since it's creators clearly were focused on human-centered design when they created it. --Nick (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Contextual design? Did any of them ever use that expression? Can you find it in the BSTJ? Ken had bits of a kernel written in assembler. They had a game called Space Travel. Ken wanted to write a FORTRAN compiler for the PDP but came out with B instead. Any of this familiar to you? End of.

Influence of the Unix philosophy on other systems?
Would it be good to add some contents on influence of the Unix philosophy on other systems?

Such as to Windows: Beginning from Windows 2003, Microsoft has added more command line tools to Windows, some of which can already cooperate. Also, with the introduction of PowerShell, many parts of Windows, such as the file system, the registry and the Windows Management Instrumentation (WMI) can interact. This might be indirectly influenced by the Unix philosophy.

To Android, the "Share" button promotes inter-application cooperation. Although this is often a manual operation, and in fact still most of the applications do not cooperate programmatically, it is still positive influence to the design of the applications.

Robbie.fandecheng (talk) 01:27, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Only if the connection to Unix philosophy is backed up by reliable sources, see WP:V and WP:OR if you haven't read them already. -- intgr [talk] 03:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Unix has existed for the entire history of Windows (and Microsoft). MS taking notice of Unix philosophies 30 years later can be more directly attributed to the security disaster that was Windows 2000 and the appearance of Linux as a threat. In other words, market-driven concerns not an appreciation for unix. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OMPIRE (talk • contribs)

 * Good point! Except for the fact that Bill Gates bought a source code licence to Unix 40 years ago.

Cognitive engineering?
What exactly does cognitive engineering have to do with the Unix philosophy? I'm not seeing the connection here at all, and it isn't made clear in the article either. I'm not sure, for example, why someone saying that most things in cognitive engineering are bullshit, has any real connection to the Unix philosophy. Huihermit (talk) 13:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Pinging the editor who added this all. -- intgr [talk] 16:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I added a lot of material when I discovered an interview with the author of those quotes. Basically he was the guy that gave the machine time to the others to develop Unix. He ran a department and moved in to software from a physics/electrical engineering background. I understand it may seem tangential but given the "origin" section I think including comments and an explanation of the academic background of early criticisms of Unix's interface and the reactions they generated are definitely relevant. At present the content doesn't hang together very well, a good way to solve this is to add more cited content from that period. prat (talk) 07:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

 * The problem in my view is that this is not an article on the history of Unix. It is an article on a very specific philosophy used when developing Unix software (mostly about small software tools that can easily work together through pipes, plain text, etc.). I agree that some of the material in that interview could be useful, but I think it would have to be used carefully and with enough context, maybe in an article like History of Unix. Or possibly something about the Unix shell, or command-line interfaces. Best regards. Huihermit (talk) 09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I think the fact that there was a semi-formally established school of thinking 'cognitive engineering' was indicative of the time and place and therefore tangentially relevant to the origin of the unix philosophy. However, the contemporary published, direct, analytical attacks on the design of unix that cognitive engineering practitioners made and any published responses from those involved in its early design and use are, in my view, certainly relevant. Therefore overall I think the addition of the material is a good one. I agree the current state of the article is less than ideal. I agree that the History of Unix article could probably benefit from the interview's material, probably substantially more than the current article, however the total lack of criticism or contemporary quotations in this article is really a bit of a problem here and deserves some application of effort. Do you think you can find any more quotations or pithier reducible statements from those involved in Unix's early days about how the design philosophy differed from previous and contemporary systems? Personally I believe this is what the article lacks. prat (talk) 10:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Is this article just for collecting material that might be "tangentially relevant" to the Unix philosophy? I consider myself to be pretty well-read on the history of Unix, and even I for the life of me can't figure out why these ideas about cognitive engineering would be appropriate for an overview of the Unix philosophy. Does an encyclopedia article on this subject really benefit from a quote about someone saying that most of cognitive engineering is bullshit? Why does this even exist in the article? It's beyond confusing and I'm sure other readers would be confused by it too. And of course there is the fact that the person being interviewed never worked as a developer of the early Unix versions in which the Unix philosophy developed. Huihermit (talk) 12:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I agree 100% that particular quote is unnecessary and confusing when considered alone, however it is enlightening as a contemporary response from the Unix crowd to the criticism raised in the Truth About Unix (cognitive engineering crowd). If you can find a better response quote, let's use it. I don't think being well read really helps, this sort of thing is essentially modern history / contemporary so facts are still coming out. The person interviewed was responsible for very important hardware in the history of Unix such as the first digital telephone switch, and worked directly with the authors in the early days of the system. prat (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Since it's accompanied by no context and the origins of the Unix philosophy are in the 1970's, citing a 1980's criticism of Unix in the section that is supposed to introduce the Unix philosophy is not helpful. This article is not about the Unix user interface. It is about the Unix philosophy of building software tools. Just because someone worked in the same company as Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie does not mean that this quote is appropriate for the page or has any relationship to the subject. You have stated yourself that these quotes are only tangentially related to the subject, if they are related at all. Furthermore, from your earlier edits to the cognitive engineering article, it is clear that you are not even familiar with the subject of cognitive engineering or its origins. You are assuming that there is some relationship between early Unix and cognitive engineering, but even the interview with Condon states that Unix preceded cognitive engineering and did not use the concepts of cognitive engineering. Trying to insert materials about cognitive engineering in the section on the origins of the Unix philosophy is anachronistic and unrelated. These quotes and sources should have some clear relationship to the subject but they don't. Huihermit (talk) 03:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Also, please see: Relevance of content. Articles should also use Reliable sources, published materials about the subject of the article, and mainly secondary and tertiary sources. There should not be presumptions like "maybe Ken Thompson and Condon influenced each other and so cognitive engineering must be some influence on the Unix philosophy." That's sloppy original research and inappropriate for an encyclopedia article, in which content must be on-topic and verifiable. Huihermit (talk) 03:20, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your re-ordering edit, I think that was a great improvement. Regarding your statements here, I do believe 1981 can be considered part of the origin period of Unix's development. Cognitive engineering was, as far as I can tell reading, a vaguely defined engineering philosophy and *not* an interface-exclusive philosophy at that time, though it's major proponent went on to have a successful career in human-computer interface theory and thus it appears that cognitive engineering's popular meaning has, as a result, been 'bent' in that direction. This is why it is important to take actual sources - period quotations or reflections from the horse's mouth - rather than hand-waving when looking backwards. I do fundamentally agree with you that the link to some of this content (not all, eg. the "unix philosophy is x" quote) is linked via a pretty weak tangent right now relative to the other general content, however I would hope that this will improve over time as additional information is published and added about the period. Regarding your second paragraph, there is no original intepretation here, Condon quotes specifically about his involvement with Unix and about Unix philosophy itself in the cited interview. Probably I have made a poor summary, feel free to revisit and do a better job if you so desire. prat (talk) 09:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not at all true that the 1980's were part of the origin of the development of Unix. The Unix philosophy was in place by Version 3 Unix (1973). By the end of the 1970's, Version 7 Unix had spread throughout academia, with hundreds of Unix installations all around the world, and had spun off into BSD and other variants. All the really important and fundamental development of the Unix philosophy was in the early 1970's. Furthermore, it's clear that Condon played no part in Unix development at Bell Labs, so I'm not sure what the relevance is. Huihermit (talk) 11:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

 * To us standing here in (almost) 2016, a 1981 article regarding the design philosophy of Unix up to that point is pretty much discussing the 'origin' period. If you can find an earlier critique of the the design philosophy of Unix and a response, then by all means add it. prat (talk) 22:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

 * OK, I've removed the second quote and reworded, also re-ordered the 'stay out of assembler' thing up under the first statement (small tools) which flows better to my mind. What do you think? prat (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Unix Philosophy
(one of my favorite though many are valuable)

"everything is a file" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.207.23 (talk) 02:13, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features". It sounds great. Then you realize that you can delete files with find, because it allowed them to run one process instead of two, and that trumped any "philosophy" they might have… 89.64.69.177 (talk) 02:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Unix philosophy


text:
Void

Void may refer to:

Science, engineering, and technology

 * Void (astronomy), the spaces between galaxy filaments that contain no galaxies
 * Void (composites), a pore that remains unoccupied in a composite material
 * Void, synonym for vacuum, a space containing no matter
 * Void, a bubble within a mechanical part that causes cavitation when it collapses
 * Void, an unwanted air pocket formed during injection moulding
 * VoID or Vocabulary of Interlinked Datasets, an RDF vocabulary to enable the discovery and use of linked data sets
 * Void coefficient, the change in the reactivity of a nuclear reactor when voids form in moderator or coolant fluids
 * Void Linux, a Linux distribution
 * Void ratio, the volume of void-space to solid space in a material
 * Void safety, in object-oriented programming, a guarantee that no object references will have null values
 * Void type, in programming languages, a keyword indicating the absence of data
 * Void set or empty set, the mathematical set with no elements

Characters

 * Void, a malevolent alter ego of superhero Sentry (Robert Reynolds)
 * Void (comics), one of the original team of the Wildcats
 * Void, the main antagonist in the 2000 video game Sonic Shuffle
 * Voids, the villains in the Zbots action-figures franchise
 * Void Termina, Void Soul, and Void, the overarching villain(s) in Kirby Star Allies
 * Void, a member of the God Hand and one of the main villains in Berserk

Films

 * Void (film), a 2013 Lebanese film

Literature

 * A Void, a 1969 French novel written without using the letter e by Georges Perec
 * Void Trilogy, a science-fiction series by Peter F. Hamilton

Music

 * Void (band), a Washington, D.C.-based hardcore punk band
 * Void (Intronaut album), 2006
 * VOID (NaNa album), 1999
 * Void (Vanna album), 2014
 * Void (War of Ages album), 2019
 * VOID (Video Overview in Deceleration), a 2005 DVD by the Flaming Lips
 * ØØ Void, a 2000 album by Sunn O)))
 * Voids (album), a 2017 album by Minus the Bear
 * Void (EP), an EP by Destroy the Runner
 * "Void", a song by Allday from Drinking with My Smoking Friends
 * "Void", a song by Kilo Kish
 * "Void", a song by Lil Nas X from Montero
 * "Void" (song), a song by Melanie Martinez from Portals
 * "Void", a song by the Neighborhood from The Neighbourhood

Other arts, entertainment, and media

 * Void (cards), to have no cards of a particular suit in one's hand during a card game
 * Void (fanzine), a major science-fiction fanzine started in the 1950s
 * Void Gallery, a contemporary art gallery in Derry, Northern Ireland
 * Void Indigo, a comic book series written by Steve Gerber and drawn by Val Mayerik

Religion and philosophy

 * The Void (philosophy)
 * Void (classical element), English for Kū, one of the five elements in Japanese Buddhism
 * Śūnyatā, a Buddhist philosophical concept translated most often as emptiness and sometimes voidness

Other uses

 * Void (law), an action, document or transaction that has no legal effect
 * Voiding, the act of urination
 * Nothing

title: Void


text:
Paul Gouin

Paul Gouin (May 20, 1898 – December 4, 1976) was a politician in Quebec, Canada, was the son of Sir Lomer Gouin and the grandson of Premier Honoré Mercier.

Life and career
He was born in Montreal, Quebec to Lomer Gouin and Éliza Mercier. He fought in World War I as a tank commander, studied at Université Laval, and was admitted to the bar of Quebec in 1920.

Dissatisfied with the direction of the Quebec Liberal Party, he helped found the Action libérale nationale party on June 6, 1934. He soon formed an alliance with Maurice Duplessis's Quebec Conservative Party to contest the 1935 provincial election. Gouin withdrew his support from Duplessis on June 18, 1936, but most members of the ALN caucus sided with Duplessis and joined with his Conservative caucus, which formally merged into the Union Nationale party, which not long afterwards won the 1936 election.

He re-formed the Action libérale nationale and became its leader on July 24, 1938. However, the ALN did poorly in the 1939 election, winning only 4.5% of the popular vote and no seats, and soon disbanded. He helped found the Bloc populaire canadien in 1942 but left it in early 1944 when André Laurendeau was chosen to lead the Quebec wing of the party. In 1952 he succeeded Madame Athanase David as the President of the Montreal Festivals, a post he held through 1956.

title: Paul Gouin


text:
User:Cspenn

Christopher S. Penn is the Chief Technology Officer of the Edvisors Network, an education services company based in Quincy, Massachusetts. He has been a technology professional since 1993. He is also the producer and director of The Financial Aid Podcast, an internet radio show focusing on financial aid, student loans, and education.

Mr. Penn is the co-host, with John Wall, of the Marketing Over Coffee Podcast. This cast covers marketing with an emphasis on new and online strategies.

Visit his sites, including:
 * Christopher S. Penn
 * Financial Aid Podcast Internet Radio

title: User:Cspenn


text:
Talk:Separation of powers

Splitting off 'branches of government': The solution to finally advancing past 'start class'?
Here's a thought. Why not move large parts of this article – the ones dedicated mostly to describing the structure of individual governments – to a separate article by the name "branches of government" (or something similar).

The way things are now, the principle and theory of separated powers is overwhelmed by the detailed and lengthy accounts of each country's arms of government, which I feel misses the point. I would consider "separation of powers" primarily a political philosophy, constitutional studies, and constitutional law concept, whereas the branches of government parts seem more like their own thing, mostly in the remit of descriptive political science (specifically, comparative government). Readers might have an easier time finding what they are looking for if we distinguish these differing focuses. There's clearly a lot of interest in institutions and branches of government as a topic in itself, so it's probably worth its own article.

I think this split would also help better maintain WP:NPOV in the separation of powers article. Another pragmatic editorial reason to have two distinct articles is that they probably call for two somehwat different types of editor/expert: the more conceptually inclined and systematic ones for the separation of powers principle, and the more taxonomically inclined and particularist ones for the listing of different institutional structures of individual governments.

I'm at the beginning stages of this idea, so I'm happy to brainstorm reasons for and against. So, my fellow editors, what say you? —§§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 19:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I think that's a great idea. Pecopteris (talk) 01:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this. All that would have to be done would be to create a new article would be to split off the "In different countries" section. I've deleted some of the original research from that but not all of it: especially the United Kingdom section, 4 10-sentence paragraphs long and entirely unsourced. It might be difficult to pass the notability guideline: there are a few good sources in there (at least 2 by my count), but they're not all directly about separation of powers, even if they talk about it. However, it could be justified by it just being a page split, and sources obviously existing. Think it can be done. Mrfoogles (talk) 01:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You should probably just do it, this talk page is probably not going to get much traffic. Mrfoogles (talk) 01:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Created Draft:Branches of government, and cleaned up the formatting a bit. It still needs a lead, and I'm not sure how it would do with new page review, so I'm not going to move it to mainspace, though. Mrfoogles (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

--- I'm pleased to have received positive feedback from the both of you, and no objections. I told myself I'd observe the talk page for one month, and then perform the split – provided there were no substantiated objections to negate the presumption of WP:Consensus, naturally. The discussion seems to have come to a close organically after not quite a month. I guess now the 'branches of government' article exists, with the worthwhile sections from the second heading serving as a basis for the draft, the next step is the big one: deleting the entire second heading? So that, in effect, it will have been draftified?

Thank you also for doing a lot of necessary cleanup, Mrfoogles. I've come to realize that the explanation for the article's low quality may lie just as much in its approach – just listing a bunch of instances of the thing, rather than providing analysis and summary (for a description of this phenomenon, see essay WP:CARGO) – as it lies in off-topic material; but I balk at making sweeping deletions. The lack of sourcing for large parts is another good reason to remove them, however.

Funnily enough, even though, as you say, this talk page doesn't get much traffic, it garnered two responses within a few weeks; whereas my invitations to participate here, which I extended to WikiProject Philosophy, to WikiProject Politics and to WikiProject Law – each having ostensibly far busier talk pages – seem to have gone unacknowledged entirely.

—§§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 21:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

citing checks and balances
this is an often made claim and there is obviously truth value to it, but i cant seem to find any good source. any ideas? 216.164.249.213 (talk) 06:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Which claim do you mean, in particular? I'm also a bit dubious whether 'truth value' is such a simple matter here – the relation between the principle of differentiating and separating powers and the idea of letting one power check and balance another is rather unclear and glossed over in much of the literature. —§§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 20:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Separation of powers


text:
UTV (TV channel)

UTV (formerly Ulster Television, branded on air as ITV1) is the ITV region covering Northern Ireland, ITV subsidiary and the former on-air name of the free-to-air public broadcast television channel serving the area. It is run by ITV plc and is responsible for the regional news service and other programmes made principally for the area.

The present day TV service, ITV1, is directly descended from the ITV network, which originally consisted of independent regional companies which were once the only commercial TV broadcasters in their area. UTV held the licence for Northern Ireland and first went on the air on 31 October 1959.

The company itself was formed in November 1958 to apply for the licence – advertised by the Independent Television Authority – and became the first indigenous broadcaster in Northern Ireland. The company later diversified and the UTV television operation was sold by parent UTV Media plc (now known as Wireless Group and part of News UK) to ITV plc in February 2016.

History
In 1953, the BBC began its first television broadcasts in Northern Ireland, from a temporary relay transmitter in Glencairn that was hastily set up in time for the coronation of Elizabeth II. The following year, the UK Parliament passed the Television Act of 1954, which led to the launch of the country's first commercial television broadcaster, ITV (and subsequently, the beginning of commercial television broadcasts in the United Kingdom). On 2 September 1958, the ITA began searching for companies and entities interested in operating an ITV franchise for Northern Ireland. Among the candidates for the franchise are Associated-Rediffusion and Granada, as well as two consortia - one led by the Duke of Abercorn and the other led by the Earl of Antrim. The ITA eventually awarded the franchise to the Antrim consortium on 4 November by having the Whig and Telegraph among the franchise shareholders, while also having sufficient Roman Catholic representation.

With a reluctant MacQuitty as the franchise's founding managing director, the newly-formed group, Ulster Television Limited, set out to launch the new station on Halloween 1959, giving them less than a year to construct facilities and hire needed personnel within a tight budget. The group would purchase Havelock House, then an abandoned linen factory on the Ormeau Road, for £17,000 and convert it into a television studio complex. Instead of providing six hours a week of local programming (inclucing a full news service) within year one (as stipulated in the franchise contract), UTV would do so in stages, with the twenty-minute weekday magazine programme Roundabout being the first local programme to be produced. Ulster Television would sign an affiliation agreement with another broadcaster, Associated British Corporation (also known as ABC Television Limited), to supply the former with programmes and advertising.

On air
Ulster Television went on air at 4:45pm on 31 October 1959, with Laurence Olivier (then of Henry V, Hamlet, and Richard III fame) being the first person to appear. During its first minutes on air, it featured children engaging in Halloween festivities, an introduction to Northern Ireland "in words and music" by Richard Hayward, and prerecorded messages from ITV talent. The first programmes to air on Ulster Television are (in order) an episode of The Adventures of Robin Hood, an ITN bulletin, an episode of African Patrol, an episode of Boy Meets Girls (a music programme now wiped), an episode of 77 Sunset Strip, an episode of The Jewel and Warriss Show, another ITN bulletin, a wrestling programme, the 1949 American war film Task Force, and an episode of The Florian Zabach Show. Olivier would then close Ulster Television's inaugural broadcast with an excerpt from Joseph Addison's "The Spacious Firmament". On that night, some residents from Dublin (which falls outside the station's intended broadcast area) called the station to report poor picture reception.

The following evening, UTV aired Rich and Rare, a film consisting of thirty images from across Northern Ireland produced by John Loder (then-Governor of Northern Ireland and Lord Wakehurst), followed by A Shilling for the Evil Day (a play by Irish writer Joseph Tomelty, as part of Armchair Theatre).

At launch, Ulster Television employed a staff of 100 people including six presenters: Ivor Mills and Anne Gregg were chosen as the presenters of local magazine programme Roundabout, Adrienne McGuill, James Greene and Brian Durkin were the first continuity announcers, and former rugby union international Ernest Strathdee was recruited as the station's sports presenter.

Coverage of UTV spread to Western areas of Northern Ireland when the Strabane transmitter opened in February 1963.

1970s–2000s
Ulster Television's UHF PAL colour service was launched with the opening of the UHF transmitter Divis in September 1970. This was followed by two additional transmitters at Limavady (opened in 1975 ) and Brougher Mountain (in 1978 ). In the early 1980s it broadcast reduced hours when no schools programmes were being broadcast coming on air at 12 noon during the week, and closing down every evening at 23:30 – this remained in place until 1982. In October 1988, the station began 24-hour broadcasting – the last station in the ITV network to do so. UTV was originally scheduled to take a service provided by Central in Birmingham, but a late minute decision to switch to Granada Television's sustaining feed, Night Time, led to a month-long delay.

At the company's annual general meeting in Belfast on 26 May 2006, the registered company name was changed from 'Ulster Television plc' to 'UTV plc'. The company believed that the existing name no longer reflected the full scope of the company's business. In a further change in October 2007, UTV underwent a corporate reorganisation which saw UTV shareholders swap their shares for shares in a new holding company, UTV Media plc, which took over UTV plc's shareholdings in the new media and radio subsidiaries. UTV Ltd. – the original Ulster Television Limited, now a wholly owned subsidiary of UTV Media – returned to being solely the operating company for the ITV franchise.

Sale to ITV and end of local continuity
On 19 October 2015, UTV Media announced that it would sell its ITV franchise and the UTV brand to ITV plc for £100 million, subject to regulatory approval. ITV plc CEO Adam Crozier welcomed the news by saying: "UTV Television's strategic objectives are closely aligned with our own and we are very pleased that they are joining the ITV family."

The acquisition was finalised the following February. ITV stated that they intended to retain the UTV brand in Northern Ireland.

The former UTV Media group was restructured and rebranded as the Wireless Group, retaining its radio assets until June 2016, when the company was bought by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. On 11 July 2016, ITV plc announced that was selling the UTV Ireland service to Virgin Media Ireland for €10 million. Virgin Media Ireland was a subsidiary of Liberty Media and had already bought Ireland's TV3 in 2015).

In October 2016, ITV announced plans to close UTV's Havelock House studios. UTV began broadcasting from a new broadcast centre at City Quays 2 in the Belfast Harbour Estate from 1 July 2018.

Local continuity announcements ended in April 2020, effectively rebranding the channel as ITV in line with all other ITV plc regions. This change was made permanent in November 2020. The ITV channel (including UTV) rebranded as ITV1 in November 2022. The UTV name continues to be used for local programming, notably the news service UTV Live, and in on-air promotions for local non-news programmes.

Programming
UTV's focus has always been on programmes made explicitly for viewers in Northern Ireland. But until the 1990s it also made a number of contributions to the ITV network and Channel 4 – many of which were in some way about the province.

Current/recent series

 * UTV Live
 * UTV Life
 * View from Stormont
 * Up Close
 * Hidden NI
 * Lesser Spotted Ulster
 * Lesser Spotted Culture
 * Lough Foyle
 * The Issue
 * The Magazine
 * Paul and Nick's Big Food Trip
 * Rare Breed: A Farming Year
 * RPM
 * Ulster Unearthed
 * Ultimate Ulster

Notable programmes shown on the ITV network

 * Password (1987–1988)

Contributions to series on the ITV network

 * About Britain
 * Comedy Playhouse ("Sailortown"; co-production with Central Television and Carlton Television, 20 April 1993)
 * Dramarama ("Undertow of the Armada", 15 June 1987)
 * Get Fresh
 * Ghost Train
 * Highway
 * ITV Playhouse ("Boatman Do Not Tarry", 8 July 1968)
 * Morning Worship
 * Sounds of Britain
 * The Time, The Place
 * Treasures in Store

Notable programmes shown on Channel 4

 * The Irish R.M. (co-production with RTÉ; 1983–1985, 3 series)
 * Ulster Landscapes (1983)
 * Trauma (1983)
 * Make It Pay (1983–1985)
 * A Seat Among the Stars: The Cinema in Ireland (1984)
 * How Does Your Garden Grow? (1986–1992)
 * The Last of a Dyin' Race (one-off drama; 1987)
 * God's Frontiermen (4-part drama series; 1989)

Notable regional programmes

 * All Mixed Up
 * Counterpoint
 * Farming Ulster
 * (UTV Live) Insight
 * Jenny Bristow cookery series
 * Kelly
 * McGilloway's Way
 * McKeever
 * School Around the Corner – created by the show's original presenter Paddy Crosbie
 * The Seven Thirty Show
 * UTV Live Tonight
 * UTV School Choir of the Year

Regional news programmes

 * Roundabout (1959–1964)
 * Newsview (1964–1969)
 * UTV Reports/Reports (1969–1978)
 * Good Evening Ulster (1979–1987)
 * Six Tonight/Ulster Newstime (1987–1992)
 * UTV Live (1993 to date)

Visual identity and presentation
Before ITV branding was introduced in 2020, UTV/Ulster Television used a number of different logos, or idents on-screen over the years.
 * 1959 – The station's first on-screen logo was an oscilloscope pattern made up of seven dots joined by six lines. The logo animated to a jingle based on the local folk tune The Mountains of Mourne. According to UTV's website, the original logo was designed as part of a competition, and the winner among over 450 entrants was Mr Roy Irwin of Ballycarry.
 * 1970 – With the imminent launch of UHF colour broadcasts, Ulster Television redesigned its first logo – the oscilloscope pattern was retained; but the dots were removed, and the lines were encased in a television-screen shape. Monochrome and colour versions of this ident were produced, the colour using a yellow logo and text on a blue background, which were adopted as the station's colour scheme. UTV's ident at this time did not animate and was not accompanied by a jingle. The logo type introduced on this ident was retained until 1993.
 * 1980 – To celebrate their 21st anniversary, UTV commissioned a new ident featuring a model of the station logo embedded on four faces of a cube, coated in silver with a pole skewering the top and bottom of the cube. This model was then filmed on video with a black cloth background as it revolved on a turntable. When it appeared on screen, it was accompanied by a synthesised jingle, and the words "Ulster Television" wiped on screen in yellow text. This ident made its on-screen debut on Halloween Day 1980, and it was used until New Year's Eve 1988.
 * 1987 – On 7 September 1987, to coincide with the launch of the station's new evening magazine programme, Six Tonight, a new ident was used to introduce the programme, featuring a computer-animated silver station logo on a blue/green backdrop. After five seconds, the logo faded into the background as the titles of Six Tonight began. This ident, UTV's first attempt at a CGI ident, was later adapted as a temporary station ident in the last few months of 1988, with a video freeze used as the logo sank into the background.
 * 1989 – On New Year's Day 1989 a revised computer animation was introduced and the last to feature the oscilloscope logo and the "Ulster Television" name. The ident began with a panning shot over a huge plate with texture to make it look like frost or ice (possibly a white and gray cloudy texture), against a light blue background. Then, an oscilloscope rises out from the plate, and the lines of the oscilloscope pattern are formed with a wipe. In this ident, the lines of the oscilloscope are yellow, with the rest of the logo (the television screen shape) in blue. When the lines are formed, the logo turns and reveals on screen, as a grey banner flies in underneath bearing the words "Ulster Television" and settles underneath the station logo, waving like a flag. This ident was accompanied by a new jingle, and was used until 4 June 1993.
 * 1993 – At 6pm on 4 June 1993, UTV officially unveiled a new logo. This consisted of an italicised Times Roman capital U forming on screen from different component parts, settling on a blue and yellow plate with "TV" written in italicised red Agency FB Font text. A new jingle was also introduced with a distinct Celtic sound. Since the start of 1993, continuity announcements and trailers referred increasingly to "UTV", and the station's news service was rebranded as UTV Live. With the new logo, the use of "Ulster Television" to identify the station was consigned to history. It also dropped ITV network promotions and introduced locally produced trails.
 * 1996 – UTV introduced a new series of idents on 11 November 1996, which showcased scenic locations in Northern Ireland. These include the Giant's Causeway, a waterfall at Glenarriff, and Portaferry harbour. These are supplemented on 12 January 1998 with a set of idents featuring people playing the UTV jingle on various musical instruments. Some of the idents featured UTV personalities. It also dropped live daytime continuity.
 * 2000 – On 1 July 2000, the day when programme presentation and commercials shown on the four main UK television channels switched from the 4:3 aspect ratio to 14:9 on analogue broadcasts and 16:9 on digital broadcasts, UTV refused to adopt the 1999 ITV Hearts look and introduced a new set of idents inspired by the 1989 ITV generic ident featuring a stripe on a black background using footage from the 1996 "landscape" idents, the break filler films used on its short-lived sister channel TV You, and a UTV corporate advertisement where a shoal of fish grouped together to form the 1993 logo. This collection of idents were the first to be created and transmitted in 16:9 aspect ratio, on digital terrestrial and digital cable providers. This was the last set of idents which used the 1993 logo, and they were phased out shortly before Christmas 2000, when a new logo was introduced.
 * 2001 – The 1993 logo was later replaced with a similar flatter and wider logo. The "U" is rendered in yellow on a blue oblong, with the "TV" in red on a yellow oblong contained inside the blue oblong. Its first use was in UTV's 2000 Christmas ident, replacing the previous set. On 6 January 2001, a new series of idents shot at various locations across Northern Ireland, including the Silent Valley Reservoir in County Down, Great Victoria Street in Belfast and the Hands Across the Divide sculpture at the Craigavon Bridge, Derry. This was complemented by further idents in 2002 featuring people walking towards the camera and touching the screen with their fingers to make the UTV logo appear.
 * 2002 – On 28 October 2002, most of the regional ITV companies adopted a common look with the ITV1 brand replacing the various station logos. This was marked with a series of idents showing actors, presenters and newsreaders associated with ITV appearing in idents. At the same time, UTV decided to adopt these idents, but replaced the ITV logo with their own station logo. The soundtrack used on these idents was identical to those heard on the ITV network versions. This is the nearest that UTV had come to using identical idents to the rest of the ITV network. Around Christmas 2002, UTV broadcast a similar collection of idents showcasing their own presenting talent, shown in addition to the national idents. By early 2003, the network and local celebrity idents were phased out, and a generic ident showing the UTV logo on an animated blue background was used in all junctions.
 * 2003 – UTV replaces its network-inspired graphics on 20 November 2003 with a series landscape films of Northern Ireland in their idents, in the form of a panorama shot as the camera revolved around a location. Among the scenes used in this series of UTV idents included the Mourne Mountains, Enniskillen and Lurgan Park. These idents primarily used one of the ident jingles until 3 November 2005, when UTV reprised its 1993–2002 station jingle.
 * 2006 – To coincide with the introduction of a new identity across ITV plc stations on Monday 16 January 2006, UTV replaced its 2003 idents with a brand new set. The new idents featured newly recorded films shot across Northern Ireland, again in the form of panoramas. The landscape films used in these idents were updated in July 2007 and October 2008, with the background of each ident changing from black to white in December 2008. Special variations of the UTV idents were used to promote the 2006 North West 200 event, 2006 Special Olympics, the 2007 Rugby World Cup and the UTV Rewind series.
 * 2016 – On 17 October 2016, a brand new look was unveiled, aligning the UTV brand more closely with that of the ITV channel. The station idents, based on those used by ITV since a major rebrand in January 2013, included the UTV logo changing colour as it blended in on a live-action scene - a process known as "colour picking".
 * 2020 – Since 2 April 2020, UTV has taken full ITV branding and presentation from London including network announcements, idents, promos and end credit sequences. This was initially announced as a temporary measure due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on staff at the Belfast studios. Local continuity was officially abandoned in November 2020 with the departures of the announcing team.

Local continuity
Until April 2020, UTV was one of two stations in the ITV network – and the only one owned by ITV plc – to have its own continuity announcers.

UTV was also the last company in the network to retain in-vision continuity links, where the duty announcer appeared on-camera to introduce the evening's programmes. In later years, local continuity was generally restricted to evenings with in-vision links presented at weekends by senior announcer Julian Simmons. In 2009, the practice was restored to weekday evenings and presented by the entire announcing team.

Following the sale of UTV, ITV plc transferred most of the station's presentation operations from the Havelock House studios in Belfast to Red Bee Media in Chiswick, which provides playout services for most of ITV's channels.

The last live in-vision announcement was made by Simmons at 11.15 pm on Sunday 16 October 2016, marking the end of 57 years of local transmission.

Two of UTV's longest-serving announcers, Julian Simmons and Gillian Porter, were retained to pre-record out-of-vision continuity – with Aidan Browne providing relief cover – until 2 April 2020, when the channel began taking ITV-branded network presentation as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.

In November 2020, it was reported the announcing team had left UTV following a decision to switch permanently to network continuity. The last known announcement, voiced by Porter, aired at 5.59 am on Thursday 2 April 2020.

In April 2021, a local voice-over started to be used over the ident before some local programmes. A new bumper with the UTV logo and the tagline "Part of ITV" was also shown for a short time before some – but not all – commercial breaks.

Station theme tunes
In common with the rest of the ITV Network, the station aired specially composed signature tunes as part of its daily start-up routine. From launch until 1971, the opening theme was Seamus by the American musician, composer and bandleader Van Phillips, who had earlier written the theme tune of the popular 1950s BBC radio science fiction drama Journey into Space. UTV's best-known theme was The Antrim Road, a classical symphony composed by Wayne Hill and Earl Ward, which was used between 1971 and 1983. It originally featured on The British Isles, an LP of orchestral arrangements of traditional and characteristic national tunes of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The album was released on the De Wolf label in 1971.

ITV1 HD (UTV region)
ITV's service for the UTV region is available in HD – like most other ITV regions – but UTV was one of the first stations in the ITV network to offer a full HD simulcast in its days as an independent company.

UTV HD, a simulcast of UTV in high-definition, was launched on Virgin Media on 5 October 2010. It became available on Freeview when the digital switchover took place on 24 October 2012 and on Sky and Freesat on 4 November 2013.

For the first few months, the only true HD content came from the ITV network but after an upgrade local material including adverts started to be played out in HD.

In May 2011, the presentation infrastructure was upgraded to become fully HD-capable in readiness for the digital switchover in 2012.

ITV1 +1 (Services offered in Northern Ireland)
A delayed version of the full ITV1 service for the UTV region is available on Freeview and Virgin Media.

The timeshift service – branded UTV+1 before the station adopted ITV branding in 2020 – launched at 8pm on 11 January 2011 on Freeview and Virgin Media. UTV +1 however didn't launch on Sky and Freesat until 21 May 2018.

On 13 April 2021, ITV stopped broadcasting UTV +1 on satellite. ITV +1 Granada was added to Sky in Northern Ireland to replace UTV +1.

UTV 2
The channel was launched on June 28, 1999, originally named TV You. In 2000, it was rebranded as UTV2. Its programming mainly featured simulcasts with ITV2, which was broadcast in England, Wales, and the Scottish Borders.

Additionally, the channel aired archive programs from UTV. It was free from advertising and eventually closed following a deal with ITV Digital.

UTV Ireland
UTV Ireland was a short-lived sister station to UTV's Northern Ireland service, broadcasting to the Republic of Ireland.

The new channel launched on New Year's Day 2015, following approval by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

UTV Ireland was broadcast from the company's Dublin base at Macken House and carried a large amount of ITV's networked programming (including Emmerdale and Coronation Street, previously broadcast by TV3) alongside some bespoke programming, including Ireland Live, a twice nightly national news programme airing at 5.30 pm and 10 pm. Ratings and advertising revenue were disappointing which meant the costs of the new station were greater than UTV Media had expected. This played a part in the company's decision to sell the whole television business to ITV plc.

In July 2016, the channel was sold on by ITV to TV3 Group (now known as Virgin Media Television) which then, effectively, closed it.

It was replaced by a substantially new channel called Be3 on 9 January 2017. This new channel was rebranded as Virgin Media Three in August 2018. It focuses on children's and female-orientated programming.

title: UTV (TV channel)