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York, Ontario

York is a district and former city within Toronto, Ontario, Canada. It is located northwest of Old Toronto, southwest of North York and east of the Humber River.

Originally formed as York Township, it encompassed the southern section of York County. It was split several times, creating East York and North York. In 1953, it became part of the Metropolitan Toronto federation. It absorbed several municipalities, including Lambton Mills and Weston and was eventually known as the City of York. In 1998, it was dissolved along with Metro Toronto and its constituent municipalities, amalgamated to form the current City of Toronto.

Today, the area is integrated into the multicultural mosaic of Toronto. The area is home today to a number of Portuguese, Jamaican and Latin American neighbourhoods. The former city's census districts had a recorded population of 145,662 in 2016.

History
Teiaiagon, settled by the Iroquois on the eastern bank of the Humber River, where Baby Point is now, was the oldest known settlement on the land that would later become York Township.

York Township was first organized in 1793. Its initial boundaries were the Humber River to the west, in the east by what would become Victoria Park Avenue, and in the north by what would become Steeles Avenue. Etobicoke Township and Scarborough Township were located west and east, respectively, while the townships of Vaughan and Markham bordered on the north, and Lake Ontario on the south, minus the small Town of York. It was incorporated by Canada West in 1850 (Canada West later became Ontario in 1867, due to Confederation) within the new County of York.

York Township was home to one of the original Black communities in the Toronto area, which was populated by many African American fugitive slaves. By 1861, the township had the second-largest Black population in the Toronto area, after St. John's Ward, most of whom lived in York Township West (located west of Yonge Street and north of Bloor Street). The legacy of York's original Black community continues today; as of the 2016 Census, 17 percent of York's population is Black, the largest percentage of Toronto's six former municipalities.

From the period of 1850 onwards, individual villages developed such as Parkdale (1879) and Brockton (1881), which were later annexed into Toronto. The village of Weston was incorporated in 1882. Toronto Junction and East Toronto were incorporated in 1887, both later annexed by Toronto. The village of North Toronto was incorporated in 1889, annexed by Toronto in 1912. Other parts of York were directly annexed by Toronto, such as "The Annex", Riverdale, Rosedale, Seaton and Sunnyside in the 1880s and Bracondale, Deer Park, Wychwood, The Midway and Balmy Beach after 1905.

This pattern of absorption by Toronto ended as the City no longer wanted to take on the servicing costs of new suburbs. The Humewood–Cedarvale neighbourhood was developed in the 1910s to attract development in the growing township. Oakwood Village was also developed during this time. In the 1920s, the character of the township changed, with its southern reaches abutting the city of Toronto taking on a more urban character, compared with the very rural character of the north. The voters of the northern, rural part of York voted to secede, creating the new Township of North York in 1922. This was followed in 1923 by the incorporation of the village of Forest Hill, while the residents of Mount Dennis and Silverthorn voted to remain in York. The remaining two pockets of unincorporated urban development at the north end of the city, were split by the village of North Toronto, which was by then a part of the City of Toronto. Within years, the Province of Ontario saw that this arrangement of having an exclave was impractical, and further subdivided York, creating in 1924 the township of East York out of the eastern pocket.

The Township of York contracted streetcar and bus services from the Toronto Transportation Commission (later became Toronto Transit Commission in 1954), but remained independent from Toronto. During this time, American novelist and journalist Ernest Hemingway resided in the Humewood–Cedarvale community, writing for the Toronto Star.

In 1954, York, along with other municipalities south of Steeles Avenue were severed from York County, forming the new upper-tier government of Metropolitan Toronto. In 1967, it absorbed the town of Weston, and became the Borough of York, later known as the City of York. (The map shows this area in red). York was dissolved on 1 January 1998 and its functions amalgamated into the new City of Toronto. Its former council and administrative building, York Civic Centre, is located at 2700 Eglinton Avenue West, between Black Creek Drive and Keele Street, used for courts and other functions. The Etobicoke-York Community Council of Toronto administers minor responsibilities within the limits of York and Etobicoke.

Neighbourhoods
There are several distinct neighbourhoods in the former city, including the former municipality of Weston, which retains its own main street, Weston Road, and several street names duplicated in other districts of Toronto, especially downtown Toronto.

North and west of Oakwood Village is the Fairbank community. Silverthorn is west of Fairbank. Silverthorn (and Fairbank) is described as "Toronto's hidden San Francisco" in reference to its "steep streets, staircases, and unusual views of houses built in what must be the hilliest part of the city." This is due to Toronto's topography being shaped by its deep ravines being similar to the hills of San Francisco, especially in Fairbank and Silverthorn.

The Mount Dennis area of Weston was the base for the former campus of Kodak's Canadian operations from 1912 to 2006. While most of the buildings were demolished, the branch head office has been repurposed for Line 5 Eglinton's Eglinton Maintenance and Storage Facility.

Baby Point, between Jane Street and the Humber River, north of Bloor Street, is situated where the former Iroquoian village of Teiaiagon was located. It was formerly part of the Lambton Mills village within York Township.

Education

Before York was dissolved, the York Board of Education oversaw public secular schools in the former city. Since 1998, the district has been administered by the four Toronto boards:

 * Conseil scolaire catholique MonAvenir (CSCM)
 * Conseil scolaire Viamonde (CSV)
 * Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)
 * Toronto District School Board (TDSB)

CSV and TDSB operate as secular public school boards, the former operating French first-language institution, whereas the latter operates English first-language institutions (although it does offer French immersion). The other two school boards, CSCM and TCDSB, operate as public Roman Catholic separate school boards, the former operating French first-language separate schools, the latter operating English first-language separate schools.

TDSB operates several institutions that offer primary and secondary education. Secondary schools in York that are operated by TDSB include:

 * Forest Hill Collegiate Institute
 * Frank Oke Secondary School
 * George Harvey Collegiate Institute (merged with York Memorial Collegiate Institute)
 * Oakwood Collegiate Institute
 * Runnymede Collegiate Institute
 * Weston Collegiate Institute
 * York Memorial Collegiate Institute

TDSB formerly operated another secondary school in York, Vaughan Road Academy. Opened in 1927, the secondary school was York's first but was closed on its 90th anniversary in 2017 due to its lack of student population resulting from students in the local catchment area attending other nearby secondary schools. Vaughan Road Academy is repurposed as a temporary elementary school for students in the Yonge and Davisville area in Midtown Toronto since the 2018–19 school year to accommodate the construction of a new school building.

TCDSB operates one secondary school in York, St. Oscar Romero Catholic Secondary School. Neither CSCM nor CSV operate a secondary school in York.

St. Michael's College School, an independent young men's Catholic school, is located in the Tichester neighbourhood.

Public library system

Before 1997, the city operated its own library system, the York Public Library. York Public Library was merged with the other library systems of the new City of Toronto to form the new Toronto Public Library (TPL). TPL operates several branches within the district.

York's first public library was the Mount Dennis branch, which operated out of rented premises from 1923. In 1945, the Township of York Public Library Board was established, and proceeded to build three new library buildings that opened in 1951, including the Jane/Dundas library, Main Library (Eglinton Avenue one block east of Dufferin Street), and the Mount Dennis Library. The Main Library was later renamed after York Public Library head librarian Maria Shchuka and was later rebuilt in 2003. The Oakwood Village branch was York's newest library; opening in 1996.

Public transit
York operated its own bus and streetcar service, until it was absorbed by the Toronto Transit Commission. Today, the area is served by the Toronto Transit Commission's buses, streetcar, and subway system.Of the Toronto subway system, only the Heath Street exit of St. Clair West station on Line 1 Yonge–University is in the former city of York as Eglinton West station is completely within Old Toronto. The Rogers Road streetcar line served the namesake street as well.

Line 5 Eglinton

The TTC once had plans to construct the Eglinton West subway line along Eglinton Avenue. It began construction in 1994. However, it was cancelled in 1995 under Ontario premier Mike Harris and there had been no serious discussion about reviving the line until 2007, when Line 5 Eglinton (then known as the Eglinton Crosstown LRT) was proposed as part of David Miller's Transit City.

When Rob Ford became mayor in 2010, he immediately announced the cancellation of Transit City. However, city council spared a few lines, including the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, from cancellation, despite Ford's objections.

Since 2013, the new LRT has been under construction and the first phase is expected to be opened in the second half of 2024.

GO Transit

The Weston GO Station along the Kitchener line is the only GO Transit train station and Union Pearson Express train station in the district. There are also plans to construct the Caledonia GO Station along the Barrie line, which would connect with Line 5's Caledonia station, along with the Mount Dennis GO Station along the Kitchener line to connect with Line 5's Mount Dennis station.

Politics
The community was first organized as a township in 1793, but not incorporated until 1850. The township was initially a township under the County of York until 1954. In 1954, York was formally severed from the county, along with other municipalities situated south of Steeles Avenue to form the upper-tier government of Metropolitan Toronto. In 1967, the township was formally made into a borough of Metropolitan Toronto, and later a city in 1983. In 1997, York, along with the remaining municipalities of Metropolitan Toronto were formally amalgamated to form the new City of Toronto. Today, residents now vote for the Mayor of Toronto, as well as councillors of Toronto City Council. Federally and provincially, eligible residents of York are also able to vote for members of the Parliament of Canada and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

Reeves
Prior to York's amalgamation with Toronto, York operated its own municipal council, with a mayor heading York's council. Prior to the municipality's incorporation as a borough, the chief magistrate of the council was referred to as a reeve. The following individuals served as the reeves of the Township of York:

"Writ filed by Mould charges libel, slander", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]27 Sep 1969: 5. "White urges inquiry as more tax write-offs queried by residents", Baker, Alden The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]24 Oct 1969: 4 "Remains in Metro race: Mould denies interest in firm given tax deal", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]25 Sep 1969: 1. "Mould reddens as support lost; Goodhead dejected:, The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]01 Oct 1969: 5. "Mould asked to call meeting to explain disclosure on taxes", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]09 Oct 1969: 5. "Mould subject of report ordered by York Council", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]15 Oct 1969: 5 "White to seek mayor's chair", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]21 Oct 1969: 2. "Won't seek re-election, Mould says", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]22 Oct 1969: 1. "Launched to quash comment: Grys and Mould suits similar, Cowan says", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]16 Feb 1972: 5. "Believed typical of several 'swing' ridings: Wait-and-see attitude of York South delegates has strategists worried", Zaritsky, John. The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]10 Feb 1971: 8.
 * Franklin Jackes (1850–1851) – first reeve
 * William James (1852–1860)
 * William Tyrrell (1860–1864) – architect, later first reeve of Weston
 * Bartholomew Bull, Jr. (1865–1872)
 * William Tyrell (1873–1878) – second tenure
 * Henry Duncan (1879–1886)
 * Henry Frankland (1887)
 * A.L. Wilson (1888–1889)
 * Simon Thomas Humberstone (1890–1894)
 * William James Hill (1894–1897) – later MPP for York West
 * Henry Duncan (1898–1902)  – second tenure
 * William Sylvester (1903–1904)
 * George Syme (1905)
 * George Stewart Henry (1906–1910) – later MPP for York East and Premier of Ontario
 * John T. Watson (1911–1912)
 * George Syme (1913–1914) – second tenure
 * Thomas Griffiths (1915–1918)
 * Frederick H. Miller (1919–1922)
 * W.S. Jury (1923)
 * William M. Graham (1924–1927)
 * Ernest C. Westbury (1928–1929)
 * W.J. Gilbert Dean (1930–1931)
 * A.J.B. Gray (1932–1933)
 * R.J. Stuart (1934–1935)
 * Wesley Marsh Magwood (1936–1937)
 * F.J. MacRae (1938–1946)
 * Charles J. McMaster (1947–1948)
 * William George Beech (1949–1951) – later MPP for York South
 * Frederick W. Hall (1952–1956) – was reeve when Metropolitan Toronto was created, with York as a member municipality. Subsequently, became chairman of the Metro Licensing Committee. Hall was later tried on charges of municipal corruption for allegedly accepting bribes for building permits during his tenure as reeve.
 * Christopher Alexander Tonks (1957–1960) – focus of a scandal after he was accused of conflict of interest for voting for a by-law that allowed him to purchase property from the township. Unseated by a court order after a judicial probe but then reinstated on appeal.
 * Frederick Charles Taylor (1961) – Owner of a construction firm, he was elected on a reform agenda after allegations of corruption against York Township council, having first demanded a judicial probe of the township in 1956. Died in office.
 * Walter Saunders (1962) – Previously Councillor for Ward 2, council voted Saunders in as reeve in January 1962, following the death of Reeve Taylor. A travel agent by profession, Saunders had run for reeve in previous general elections but had not been successful. Walter Saunders Memorial Park along the York Beltline Trail between Dufferin Street and Times Road is named after him.
 * John Lister (Jack) Mould (1963–1966) – ran against former reeve Chris Tonks and was elected by 44 votes, after a recount. Mould was York's last reeve and would be its first mayor. Ran for the position of Metropolitan Toronto Chairman in July 1969 but was forced to withdraw from the contest after Member of Parliament Ralph Cowan accused him of tax evasion.  "War pilot Jack Mould was York's first mayor": [FIN Edition], Toronto Star; Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]02 Aug 1990: A19., "Political credentials are sound: Smiling Jack Mould is the man to watch in the contest for Metro chairman", Baker, Alden. The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]04 Aug 1969: 5., "Mould Declared Township Reeve After Recount", The Globe and Mail (1936-Current); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]31 Dec 1962: 5, "Metro chairman campaign shaping up as a 2-man contest", Baker, Alden. The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]02 July 1969: 5. ,"Charge by Cowan: Mould denies Council wrote off firm's taxes", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]24 Sep 1969: 5, "Tax writeoff disclosure sought: Resignation of Mould is demanded by York ratepayers", The Globe and Mail (1936-2016); Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]30 Sep 1969: 5

Mayors
The following individuals served as York's mayor:

 * John Lister (Jack) Mould (1966–1969)
 * Philip White (1970–1978)
 * Gayle Christie (1978–1982)
 * Alan Tonks (1982–1988) – resigned to become Metro Chairman, later MP for York South
 * Fergus Brown (1988–1994)
 * Frances Nunziata (1994–1997)

The following individual served as the Deputy Mayor of York:
 * Joe Mihevc (1991–1997)

Board of Control
The Board of Control was created in 1966 and abolished in 1988. The following individuals served as on the Board of Control:

York's two Controllers also sat on Metro Council.

Names in boldface indicate Controllers that were or became Mayor of York in other years. Italics indicate those who only sat on the Board of Control as mayor.

X = elected as Controller

A = appointed Controller to fill a vacancy

M = sitting as Reeve or Mayor

* Brown served as mayor from 1988 to 1994

title: York, Ontario


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Clochán

A clochán (plural clocháin) or beehive hut is a dry-stone hut with a corbelled roof, commonly associated with the south-western Irish seaboard. The precise construction date of most of these structures is unknown with the buildings belonging to a long-established Celtic tradition, though there is at present no direct evidence to date the surviving examples before c. 700 CE. Some associated with religious sites may be pre-Romanesque, some consider that the most fully intact structures date after the 12th century or later. It is where monks lived.

Form
They are most commonly round beehive huts, but rectangular plans are known as well. It has been suggested that the rectangular footprints date to a later era. Some clochán are not completely built of stone and may have possessed a thatched roof. The walls are very thick, up to 1.5 m. Sometimes several clochans are joined by their walls.

Locations
Clochán are mainly found in the Southwest of Ireland, for example at Skellig Michael, Church Island off Beginish Island, Glanfahan, Fahan and Reask in the Dingle Peninsula of County Kerry. Many occur in religious contexts such as used by the monks following Saint Patrick; moreover, his successors carried on the architectural tradition in the Scottish island of Iona and eventually via Aidan to the eastern English islands of Farne and Holy Island. There are others in ringforts (such as Leacanabuaile, County Kerry) that are commonly interpreted as secular dwellings. Elaborate dry walled stone churches like the Gallarus Oratory may derive from the clochán. The clochán has been described in the 7th to 8th-century law Críth Gablach.

Popular culture
Parts of the 2017 film Star Wars: The Last Jedi were filmed using the beehive huts on the island of Skellig Michael. Because of the restrictions regarding filming on the island, a set of replica beehive huts were also built in 2016 at Ceann Sibéal, near Ballyferriter, on the Dingle Peninsula.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Clochán


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User talk:The0ther

Wiki is a website where any visitor can edit any page in the wiki. Most wikis require users to first register. Once you're registered a "talk page" is created for you, which servers mainly as an area where you can take notes, engage in discussion with other users (who can edit your talk page like any other page in the wiki), or otherwise experiment with the wiki.

The essence of wiki is that anybody can edit any page. How does it work out though? Every edit results in the previous version of the document being saved-off. Wiki acts a lot like a versioning system in this regard. Vandals sometimes make abusive edits to a document, but this is easily reversed by rolling-back to the previous version. Users have a watchlist so they can take a sort-of ownership of any page and see when the last edit was made.

Finally, the contents of a wiki are organized by URL. So if I want to check an entry in the "wikipedia" (an online wiki-based encyclopedia) a knowing user can just add the search term to the end of the URL. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington is the entry for our first President. If no one had previously entered this into the wikipedia I would be presented with a blank page and I could immediately begin writing the entry for George Washington. To me, it is this feature which makes the wiki much more useable than any other CMS-like thing out there.

The0ther 20:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Your pic
Thanks for uploading Image:Sixfat 1955.gif. I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) Thanks so much,    – Quadell (talk) (help)   02:02, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Six Fat Dutchmen
I have added a "" template to the article Six Fat Dutchmen, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues at its talk page. Removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, but the article may still be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. Oo7565 04:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I stumbled on the article tonight (but I can't remember how, now that I think about it... I know nothing about polka music), and with a little googling I made an attempt to expand the article a bit. For what it's worth, in 1958 they had a vinyl LP issued by the famed RCA Victor record company, so they weren't entirely some unknown local act.  A website said they were popular for a time in Texas, well outside their home stomping grounds of New Ulm, Minnesota. The band was created in the 1930s, yet a couple of "Greatest Hits" compilation CDs for them came out in the 90s and as recently as 2006, so somebody still thinks there's a market for their music.

 * There's apparently not a whole lot of historical background on the web about old acts such as these; it's not too hard to understand why since those who were around when a band like this was at it's most popular are probably dead by now, or if alive may have not be very inclined to create web pages.  It's up to another generation of people dedicated to a genre's musical history to put historical content up on the web.  Polka has limited appeal to begin with, except in certain geographic locations, so that probably is one strike against it as far as building a comprehensive historical online narrative about it... Or maybe I just didn't find one better resources in my brief bit of searching. - Itsfullofstars 06:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Harold alone.jpg
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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Talkback
 Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:The0ther


text:
Ringfort

Ringforts or ring forts are small circular fortified settlements built during the Bronze Age, Iron Age and early Middle Ages up to about the year 1000 AD. They are found in Northern Europe, especially in Ireland. There are also many in South Wales and in Cornwall, where they are called rounds. Ringforts come in many sizes and may be made of stone or earth. Earthen ringforts would have been marked by a circular rampart (a bank and ditch), often with a stakewall. Both stone and earthen ringforts would generally have had at least one building inside.

Ireland
In Irish language sources they are known by a number of names: ráth (anglicised rath, also Welsh rath), lios (anglicised lis; cognate with Cornish lis), caiseal (anglicised cashel), cathair (anglicised caher or cahir; cognate with Welsh caer, Cornish and Breton ker) and dún (anglicised dun or doon; cognate with Welsh and Cornish din). The ráth and lios was an earthen ringfort; the ráth being the enclosing bank and the lios being the open space within. The caiseal and cathair was a stone ringfort. The term dún was usually used for any stronghold of importance, which may or may not be ring-shaped.

In Ireland, over 40,000 sites have been identified as ringforts and it is thought that at least 50,000 ringforts existed on the island. They are common throughout the country, with a mean density of just over one ringfort within any area of 2 km2. It is likely that many have been destroyed by farming and urbanisation. However, many hitherto unknown ringforts have been found thanks to early Ordnance Survey maps, aerial photography, and the archaeological work that has accompanied road-building.

England and Wales
In Cornwall, parts of Devon, and south Wales, enclosed settlements share many characteristics with their Irish counterparts, including the circular shape and souterrains (fogous), and their continuing occupation from the Iron Age into the early medieval period; the form later influencing the distinctive circular shell-keeps found across the medieval Severnside region. Few Cornish examples have been archaeologically excavated, with the exception of Trethurgy Rounds.

Scandinavia
Hillforts are also known from Scandinavia, of which nineteen can be found on the Swedish island of Öland alone.

These hillforts are not to be confused with Viking ring fortresses, of which seven are known from Denmark and southern Sweden, all from around 980 in the Viking Age. The Viking forts all share a strikingly similar design and are collectively referred to as Trelleborgs, after the first excavated fortress of that type in 1936. All the Viking ring fortresses are believed to have been built within a very short timeframe, during the reign of Harold Bluetooth, but for yet unknown military purposes. They might have served as boot camps for Sweyn Forkbeard's men before his invasion of England in 1013.

Chronology
The debate on chronology is primarily a result of the huge number of ringforts and the failure of any other form of settlement site to survive to modern times in any great quantity from the period before the Early Christian period or from Gaelic Ireland after the Anglo-Norman arrival. Three general theories mark the debate on the chronology of Irish ringforts; firstly the theory that wishes to date ringforts back into the Iron Age period; secondly, the theory that seeks to see the continuation of ringfort habitation into the Later Medieval and even the Modern Period; finally, the more common and generally accepted theory that ringforts were a product of the second half of the first millennium, a theory which has been given greater definition by Matthew Stout in recent years. According to the authoritative New History of Ireland (2005), "archaeologists are agreed that the vast bulk of them are the farm enclosures of the well-to-do of early medieval Ireland".

Theories

The theories that the ringfort either pre- or post-dates the Early Middle Ages in Ireland, are both based on essentially the same premise, as is highlighted here by Tadhg O'Keefe in relation to the latter argument:

"The a priori case for attributing some ringforts to the Later Middle Ages... is based on the absence of any other settlement form of appropriate date in those landscapes. In other words, if the Gaelic-Irish did not live in ringforts, where did they live?"

Dating from the Iron Age
The conjecture that ringforts can be seen to have evolved from and be part of an Iron Age tradition has been expanded by Darren Limbert. This hypothesis is based on a number of re-interpretations of the available evidence, as well as concern over the available evidence. As only a small portion of ringforts have undergone total excavation, and the fact that these excavations have not taken place on anything like a national level, the evidence is insufficient to place all ringforts and the origins of them within the Early Christian period.

Limbert argues instead, that the ringfort should be seen in the context of a variety of similar developments in Britain and the European Continent, particularly in Iberia and Gaul. While conceding that most ringforts were built in the Early Christian period, he suggests a link between the arrival of Eóganachta dynasty in Munster c. 400 AD, and the introduction of ringforts. In support of this he notes that: "The other major Eoganachta ringforts [other than Cashel] of Ballycatten, Garranes and possibly Garryduff, despite limited stratigraphic discernment, have produced artefacts of ambiguously early origins. Also, their defensive nature,... supports an intrusion of a Celtic warrior caste..." The similarity with South Welsh 'raths' and Cornish 'rounds' suggests a degree of cultural interaction between Western British and Irish populations, however differences in dates of occupation mean this cannot be confirmed.

On the island of Öland, Sweden, nineteen ringforts have been identified, including Eketorp, a site that has been completely excavated and that one may visit. Currently, excavations are ongoing at Sandby borg, which was the site of a massacre in the 5th century AD.

It is also possible that the Hill of Tara is an early type of ringfort.

Use continuing into the Later Medieval period
At the opposite end of the spectrum to this, the argument has been put forward to suggest that ringforts were in use, if not being built in the Later Medieval and possibly Early Modern period in Gaelic Ireland. This argument is primarily two-fold, ringforts were gradually converted into what would more generally be considered as mottes today, and there is some slight and contentious archaeological evidence that points to the habitation and construction of obvious ringforts in this later medieval period.

From a morphological viewpoint, and probably also from the view of the contemporary person, there is little to distinguish a ringfort from a small earthwork castle or motte. Indeed, in a number of cases it would appear that either the Normans converted existing ringforts into the basis of the future construction of mottes and earthworks, or that the Gaelic Irish, through the use of raised raths, sought to emulate the Norman example. Some L Plan Castles, such as Balingarry Castle in Ireland originated as ringforts.

This theory is supported by a number of excavations, most notably the results of the Castleskreen II excavation, and the raised raths at Piper's Fort, and Ballyfounder, County Limerick, which seem to have been converted into mottes in the case of Castleskreen II or in the later cases, built in imitation of such constructions. If one were to accept a defensive function for ringforts, it would seem that after the introduction of more complex forms of defensive structures into Ireland this would naturally lead to the use of ringforts and raised raths in a manner analogous to the contemporary Norman buildings.

7th to 10th centuries
While it would seem probable that some ringforts may have seen continuation in the Later Medieval period as adapted or imitation mottes it seems doubtful if the continuation that ringforts were still being built on a more general scale throughout the country, and the evidence put forward for such a theory would appear quite slim. The excavations which support such a theory, most notably Rynne's excavation at Shannon Airport of Garrynamona which is suggestive of a 15th-century ringfort being constructed, have failed to win any form of widespread popular acceptance.

The most common theory however is that ringforts are the product of the later half of the first millennium, a theory that has generally been supported by the excavated evidence of the period, and one that has seen remarkable if slightly ambitious definition from Matthew Stout. In his work The Irish Ringfort, Stout has sought to use the radiocarbon and dendrochronological dates from 114 ringforts and associated sites to find an overall date pattern for the use of ringforts; and through this has placed over half of all ringforts in the period 540 AD to 884 AD with two-thirds falling within the 600 AD to 900 AD period. While this method has brought the dating of the ringfort phase of Irish history to an ever more accurate level, certain problems do exist with his analysis. Firstly, as he notes himself, the research is overly biased towards Ulster (64% of dated sites were from Ulster), and the dates come from a very small sample of sites relative to the total number of ringforts. Finally, Stout's use of radiocarbon dating is to one standard deviation, which means that there is an approximately one third chance that the data offered is inaccurate by up to 100 years on either side. Yet despite these difficulties, Stout's analysis has to a large extent brought a degree of finality to the debate of the dating and use of ringforts, with it being more or less certain that the vast majority were probably occupied and constructed in the second half of the first millennium. His analysis is further supported by Gerald of Wales who commented that ringforts in Ireland, were known as Daneforts, and that they had been abandoned by the late 12th century when he was in Ireland.

In agriculture
It has traditionally been understood that the ringfort was a dispersed farmstead, the home of a free man and his family and the centre of a mixed agricultural economy to a large extent dominated by cattle. A medieval Irish law text describes a prosperous farmer – boaire in Old Irish – as having a dwelling house, a sheep-pen, a calf-pen and a pig-sty – it would seem that these were all within the ring-fort.

Evidence suggests that not all ringforts were farmsteads, but rather that ringforts appeared to have fulfilled a variety of other functions as well. The most celebrated example of this is Garryduff II in County Cork. This ringfort which is overlooked and in close proximity to another larger ringfort, Garryduff I, has provided archaeologists with no evidence of habitation or settlement, and the pre-eminent theory at the moment is that this ringfort was possibly used as an enclosure for livestock.

However, this interpretation is still the most commonly held in academic, archaeological and popular debate, although pollen studies and other evidence have greatly modified the traditional view of the dominance of livestock as opposed to arable farming in early medieval Ireland, making it clear that cereal production was much more important than once thought in the Early Medieval period.

In industry
Other sites have provided evidence that ringforts may not have principally been farmsteads, but rather had a more diverse and significant role in the economy. A good example of this is provided by the large, tri-vallate ringfort in Garannes, County Cork, which offers no evidence for habitation or settlement but provides a great deal of evidence to suggest that the site had an industrial nature. Furthermore, the finds of continental pottery at the site, suggests that the site was trading with the continent and/or may have been acting as a gateway centre for similar high status goods into the local economy. Both Garannes, and especially Garryduff II, highlight the other roles that ringforts may have had in early Christian Ireland. While it would seem that most ringforts fitted the traditional explanation as farmsteads, that should not be used as a blanket explanation. A number of other functions for many of the surviving ringforts, such as those outlined above and possibly other settlement functions, still need to be considered.

In defence
A ringfort is a defensive feature that would appear to be obvious both from the name with the defensive implications that fort implies, and also from the generally understood morphological definition of the ringfort, with the banks and fosse been commonly seen as defensive. Indeed, in S. Ó Ríordáin's common morphological definition, he refers to the banks and fosses of the ringfort as defences.

One presumes that the ringfort had a defensive aspect, and in a cattle-dominated society it is generally argued that the purpose of the ringfort was to provide protection to a small community and their livestock during a 'hit and run' raid for cattle, the idea being that the ringfort would provide adequate defence for a small period of time. This theory is strengthened by the idea of 'visual territories' which operates from the assumption that all ringfort in a region were probably occupied contemporarily, and that in a particular area one ringfort would be in the sight of at least one other neighbouring ringfort so that if one ringfort were attacked, relief would possibly come from a neighbouring one. Furthermore, a number of aspects of the generally circular nature of the ringfort highlight the defensive advantages, most notably that a circle as a shape "offered broad perspectives of approaching attackers and allowed the maximum area to be enclosed relative to the length of the bank constructed."

In aristocracy
While defence may be expanded as the modern day explanation for the surrounding banks of a ringfort, this was not the contemporary explanation, rather the explanations forthcoming from the Early Christian texts stress the importance and role of the banks in signifying nobility, kingship and authority. This relationship can be quite clearly seen in the following extract from the Críth Gablach:

"What is the due of a king who is always in residence at the head of his tuath? Seven score feet of perfect feet are the measure of his stockade on every side. Seven feet are the thickness of its earthwork, and twelve feet its depth. It is then that he is a king, when ramparts of vassalage surround him. What is the rampart of vassalage? Twelve feet are the breadth of its opening and its depth and its measure towards the stockade. Thirty feet are its measure outwardly."

As can be seen from the above text, the relationship between the banks of a ringfort and vassalage is quite clear. With the argument being that the more elaborate the ringfort, usually in the forms of multiple outlying banks, the higher the status of the occupant. This emphasis on status in the function of the ringfort over that of defence would explain a number of defensive weaknesses of the ringfort. Banks, or multiples of them, would not appear to offer the best return to their builders for their defensive value in comparison to a fence or a hedge. Also, few of the ringforts where buildings have been found inside, would be able to survive a night with a herd of cattle brought inside the ringfort. Furthermore, little effort would appear to have been expended on the upkeep of ditches and fosses to prevent decay and silting. Another key difficulty with viewing the ringfort primarily as a defensive unit is the general lack of ability to fight out from the ringforts, from the top of the banks.

Legends and folklore concerning ringforts and rounds
The materials used to construct ringforts frequently disintegrated over time. Tradition associated their circular remains with fairies and leprechauns, and they were called “fairy forts". Castle Pencaire on Tregonning Hill was regarded as the abode of giants. Chun Castle in Morvah is related as the home of the giant Denbras who is buried by the character Tom at Chun Quoit from oral folklore recorded by William Bottrell published 1870. Kelly Rounds (Castle Kilibury) in Triggshire is often proposed as the location of King Arthur's Celliwig, known from the Welsh poem Pa Gwr yw y Porthawr? and described in the 11th century Culhwch and Olwen. Castle Dore is often proposed as the court of King Mark (Mergh Cunomor / Marcus Cunomorus) in the romance Drustan hac Yseult, the doomed hero sailing the seas from Brittany to Ireland to seek his love.

Ireland

 * Cahercommaun (Cathair Chomáin) – ringfort/promontory fort
 * Caherconnell (Cathair Chonaill)
 * Caherconree (Cathair Conraoi) – ringfort/promontory fort
 * Caherdaniel (Cathair Dónall)
 * Dún Aonghasa – ringfort/promontory fort
 * Dún Dúchathair – ringfort/promontory fort
 * Grianán Ailigh
 * Leacanabuaile
 * Lisnagade (Lios na gCead)
 * Mooghaun (An Múchán)
 * Mount Sandel Fort (Cill Santail)
 * Staigue (An Stéig)

The royal sites of Ireland are also sometimes called ringforts, although their role seems to have been mainly ceremonial. They include:
 * Uisneach (Uisnigh)
 * Cruachan
 * Dún Ailinne
 * Navan Fort (Eamhain Mhacha)
 * Tara (Teamhair)
 * Tlachta
 * Tullahoge (Tulaigh Óg)

Cornwall (Cornish rounds)

 * Caer Bran
 * Carlidnack
 * Castle an Dinas
 * Castle Dore
 * Chûn Castle
 * Helsbury Castle
 * Kelly Rounds
 * Penventinnie Round – well preserved circular fort
 * Prideaux (Pridias)
 * Tregonning – rounds associated with circular hillfort
 * Trethurgy – an excavated round
 * Warbstow Bury – regarded as 'one of the largest and best preserved multivallate hillforts' in Cornwall English heritage Report
 * Cadson Bury, Callington – often associated with the Arthurian Celliwig

Denmark (Viking ring fortresses)

 * Aggersborg
 * Fyrkat
 * Nonnebakken
 * Trelleborg (Slagelse)

Sweden

 * Eketorp
 * Ismantorp
 * Sandby borg – site of a preserved massacre

Germany

 * Ringwall of Burg
 * Ringwall of Otzenhausen

Estonia

 * Valjala Stronghold
 * Varbola Stronghold

Further reading/sources

 * GF Barrett and BJ Graham, Some considerations concerning the dating and distribution of Ring-Forts in Ireland in Ulster Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 38., 1975 pp. 33–45
 * Michelle Comber, Trade and Communication Networks in Early Historic Ireland in The Journal of Archaeology, X, 2001
 * Nancy Edward, The archaeology of early medieval Ireland, Batsford, London, 1996
 * PJ Graham & LJ Proudfoot, An Historical Geography of Ireland, Academic Press, London, 1993
 * Darren Limbert, Irish Ringforts: A review of their Origins in Archaeological Journal, 153, 1996, pp. 243–289
 * CJ Lynn Some Early Ringforts and crannógs in The Journal of Irish Archaeology, I, 1983, p. 47–58
 * Eoin MacNeill Ancient Irish Law: The Law of Status or Franchise" in the Royal Irish Academy, Volume XXXVI, C, 1923 pp. 365–316
 * JP Mallory & TE McNeill, The Archaeology of Ulster from Colonisation to Plantation, Institute of Irish Studies, Belfast, 1991
 * Tadhg O'Keefe, Medieval Ireland – An archaeology, Tempus, Gloucestershire, 2000
 * MJ O'Kelly, Two Ringforts at Garryduff, Co. Cork in Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy, 63C, 1962 pp. 17–125
 * SP Ó Ríordáin The excavation of a large Earthen Ringfort at Garranes, Co. Cork in Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy, 47C, 1942, pp. 77–150
 * Matthew Stout, Early Christian Ireland: Settlement and environment in A History of Settlement in Ireland, TB Barry (ed), London, 2000, pp. 81–109
 * Matthew Stout, The Irish Ringfort, Four Court Press, Dublin, 1997
 * Aiden O'Sullivan, Finbar McCormick, Thomas R. Kerr, and Lorcan Harney, Early Medieval Ireland AD 400–1100: The Evidence from Archaeological Excavations, Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, 2013, 2014.

title: Ringfort


text:
Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 1

Red Mercury
There is no clear information on this 'substance'. This topic is too wooly to go on the front page without some kind of context. It certainly doesn't belong in Did You Know... -- surely a place for definite facts. Mr. Jones 11:19, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dyk
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Dyk was for new content only. Where's the new article in J.J.'s edit? Hadal 17:19, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. DYK isn't for general trivia, it's for specific trivia. :) The items here should be taken from "New Pages" and should bold the new item. There are now guidelines on the edit page. Thanks for being alert. :) jengod 20:02, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * P.S. In my brief experience with this section I've found that the best way to trawl for good additions is to look for new pages with large file sizes--usually over 1000K. jengod 20:06, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, no.. thank you for your diligence in updating this section! I'm not quite bold enough to do it myself, just yet.. ;) Cheers, -- Hadal 22:04, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why are we keeping an archive
What purpose does keeping an archive serve? To me, it seems like just one more thing to do. →Raul654 19:48, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * It seemed like people started archiving, out of a reluctance to banish certain items, even if there was something good for the front door, and maybe it's one more thing to do, but it's also one more way to bring people into the site. It's only a cut-and-paste. Everything is archived, just not organized--if anybody skips the step, for whatever reason, it can always get "caught up with" by someone else... jengod 20:20, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * I like the archive. It's like our own little trivia page... - Seth Ilys

Dyk protected?
I assume this page isn't protected... then doesn't that invite vandals? ugen64 15:35, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * It's SecurityThroughObscurity. The idea is that most vandals won't go to the trouble of finding out how the mediawiki namespace works, and therefore won't find this page, even if they look at the source of the Main Page. Angela. 01:16, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Exactly. But in this case, another effect kicks in. I can't remember the name, but basically - your house doesn't have to be Fort Knox, just a bit harder to get into than your neighbors. Would be vandals just graffitti the featured article, rather than figuring out how to attack the main page. →Raul654 01:20, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * If it was protected, doesn't it mean that only admins can make changes to it? Will that, then, not be depriving other users of a chance of editing it?   ⇒ whkoh [talk]   06:14, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

Stubs appropriate?
Are stubs appropriate on Dyk? I notice that Jimmy Piersall is a stub. --Spikey 17:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's worse, it doesn't mention the fact that's featured in DYK! For that reason, I'm going to remove it. I should note that I have no objection to stubs generally, but following the link should give us more information on the fact. (I want to know if the home run was legal!) -- Toby Bartels 18:51, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

stub avoidance
Street artist is a stub. I feel we should avoid dyk links to stub articles. Kingturtle 21:07, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I would like to see a page that tracks when the stub notice is removed from an article. A list of the most recent of those would then be good candidates for Dyk's. (I suppose that would take some interesting programming, but maybe it could be as simple as difference "What links here?" for a stub notice in the form of a MediaWiki page, MediaWiki:Stub, i.e., http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=MediaWiki:Stub ?  - Bevo 22:16, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Perhaps, but then we would have to change the fundamental purpose of DYK, which at the moment is to highlight NEW articles on Wikipedia. Articles that have grown into themselves are a different subject. jengod 00:16, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, it is a little bit risky to immediately trust the assertions of a brand new page. It would be better to let it exist for a week and let the Wiki community fact-check it before it contributes to the Main page.  - Bevo 05:20, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * You know, people have been keeping a great eye on it so far. I think it's good--and it's part of a good quarter system: New news, new article, big features and little features. I think it contributes to a great spotlighting system that promotes Wikipedia. jengod 05:58, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

Number of items
Does anyone else have thoughts on the number of items that should be listed in Dyk? I know it'll have to vary a little depending upon the size of other items, but I feel like six or seven (as we've seen recently) is a bit much and makes that section look cluttered. Could we either figure out another way to format them or set general guidelines for the number of items so as to make the main page look more attractive? Any thoughts? - Seth Ilys 05:24, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I think there should be three....or four tops. Kingturtle 16:03, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I also think the list is too long now. dave

 * Is there a style guide with particulars for Dyk ? - Bevo 16:30, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The closest thing we have is what's commented out on the page itself:
 * This section is only for items that have been listed on "NEW PAGES" since the last update of DYK
 * The new item should be BOLD and placed on TOP as the FIRST ITEM
 * Generally limited THREE items, but whatever the case--just make sure it fits whatever else is on the page at that time. Use your common sense.
 * Please ARCHIVE expired items in "featured new"
 * NO STUBS
 * Try to pick articles that are ORIGINAL to Wikipedia--not 1911 or other data sources.
 * The "Did you know?" fact should be mentioned in the article.

Frequency of Dyk updates
How long should a Dyk item remain on the Main Page? Minimum and maximum. Are all the items replaced at the same time? - Bevo 19:16, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC) IMHO, :) jengod 19:26, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) There's no set rule, but I've always felt six to 24 hours is good--it depends on how much good stuff there is, but I would definitely rather have them rotate more than less--I think it's one of the sections of the page that has the *change* to very vital and fresh. Any longer than 24 hours and people are all, "Yes, we know already! Stop asking!" And less than six and people don't really get a change. A lot of this is dependent on admins being interested in updating, although once something is added, people often scramble to get a pic added. Items that would warrant pictures are also a good choice. My rule of thumb is that if I go to bed and wake up to the same DYK? it's time for an update. You could say the same about the workday--if you start up and shut down to the same DYK, it could probably do with a freshening. :)
 * 2) Again there's no rule--but first in, first out is usually a good plan. If all three items were added at the same time, they can be removed at the same time. If they were added at diffent times, but there are three new things that would work well, it's okay to sacrifice the newest one in favor of an overall update.

One other rule of thumb
This has never been codified, but I do it I make an effort not to be too country-centric or subject-centric. I think it's good if there's a mix of biology and pop culture and historical biography and so on, and, as with everything, it's better to not be Anglo-Amero-Auscentric, so I try to avoid provincial U.S. stuff (my POV) when possible, although sometimes articles are just solid enough (c.f. Naval War College) to warrant it. jengod 19:34, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

 * 2004 FH could have inspired a good Dyk item yesterday. Apparently the whole planet would have noticed had it come much closer! - Bevo 19:41, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Math
I question the propriety of including Poincaré duality here. It is an extremely specialized topic and I guess even among math grads only a small percentage would understand what its about. -- Arvindn 08:51, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, I was an English major, so as far as I'm concerned the quadratic function (or whatever that thing is called) and the Poincaré duality are exactly the same. ;) I'll see if i can find something less complicated. jengod 16:10, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Bwah!
Is it wrong that I'm really happy about "chicken sexer" being on the main page? :) jengod 23:43, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

Can I suggest a DYK? How about "DYK that Nellie Fox was rejected from the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1985 after receiving 74.6 of the required 75% of the votes to gain entry?" Maybe I should reword that: he recieved 74.6 of the votes, he needed 75... Anyone want to help me out? Chicago 01:57, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

April 10: Octopuses
Isn't it supposed to be "octopi"? – Minh Nguyễn 16:03, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * The word is derived from Greek, not Latin, so it isn't standard practice to use "octopi", which is a Latin plural. The proper way of doing it is to use the English plural, "octopuses", or the Greek plural, "octopodes", pronounced "awk-TAHP-uh-deez". The Greek plural, which I prefer because of its sheer coolness, is considered pedantic and is rarely used. Oh, well. Chris Roy 20:54, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Using div style... instead of |right
Yesterday I tried to add the message not to use the "|right" markup on the In The News and Did You Know templates to as many pages as I could find that were relevant. I know it seems rather unilateral of me, but for several weeks now I have found myself manually changing each image to the system anyway. When you use the extended image markup "|right", an error in the software causes an unsymmetrical white border to be placed behind the image (in all browsers), as demonstrated by this link. Normally in articles this is not a problem, because the articles have white backgrounds anyway. However on the Main Page, the sections with these templates have coloured backgrounds, which results these images with their borders appearing very ugly to the end user. The use of the div system fixes this problem, without changing the positioning of the image itself (with the slight exception that the text padding around the image might be smaller). I placed these messages on these pages in the hope that the remainder of people who still use the "|right" markup will change back to the old system, and thus save me the effort of having to change it every couple of days. - Mark 04:06, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Requests
I think the article on the Soviet Navy that I just created could really benefit from being posted here. Right now it is probably a little too immature, but As soon as the history section has some content it might be good for this section.... Jacoplane 11:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'd like Pergamon Museum to be included. [[User:Sverdrup|❝Sverdrup❞ ]] 01:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

...that the Pergamon Museum in Berlin hosts a reconstruction of a 113 meters long scupture frieze?

I'd like to include John Thrasher. I added the article hoping to make it into this section :) SSherris 15:06, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

...that John Thrasher, a 19th century entrepreneur was a founder of Atlanta, Georgia?

 * The page is not protected; just go ahead and add it. Remember to put what you removed into the archive. -- Kaihsu 17:05, 2004 Jul 2 (UTC)

Euro-centric
Interesting: for a change, all the articles are about Europe (Kaihsu 13:21, 2004 Jul 2 (UTC)):

From Wikipedia's newest articles: ...that the political party at European level is a type of organization in the European Union eligible to receive funding from the Union, and is recognized in the Maastricht Treaty and the draft European Constitution? ...that the Frankfurt kitchen was the first built-in kitchen, and was designed with space efficiency in mind? ...that the Pergamon Museum in Berlin hosts a reconstruction of a 113 meter long sculptural frieze? ...that dramatic structure has been diagrammed by both Aristotle and Gustav Freytag? Archive | All new articles...

 * Question: Is that supposed to be good or bad? When I'm editing I try to get a range of topics and also a range of material from the major geographic locations of most en.wikipedia users: USA, UK, A/NZ, Canada, Europe, etc. Do people think it should be another way? jengod 16:15, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

A change in formatting?
Recently on Talk:Main Page, there has been complaint that this section of the main page doesn't explain that these articles are new and therefore may contain inaccurate information. What ought to be done about this to avoid embarassment? Johnleemk | Talk 10:48, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I thought Jengod's solution of actually letting people know that the did you know facts were from new articles (it wasn't obvious before as Talk:Main Page proves) was a good one. I propose to revert Eloquence's revert unless he lets us know why it is problematic. Pcb21| Pete 09:45, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Following at least two more separate incidents of confusion about what the purpose of dyk is, I put back a "newest articles" notice. Pcb21| Pete 11:14, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * The double ellipsis in "Did you know... From Wikipedia's newest articles..." looked a bit clumsy to me, so I tweaked the punctuation. Comments? Harry R 09:58, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I actually think a better solution would be to have this template called "From Wikipedia's newest articles" and have the italic subheader saying "Did you know...". That would make it even clearer what the point of the section was, and (more importantly perhaps) would make it read more attractively. Harry R 10:22, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I STRONGLY second Harry's suggestion to rename this template to "From Wikipedia's newest articles", with a secondary title of "Did you know...". The current name just SCREAMS that it IS IS IS a general trivia section, totally contrary to what the rules (above) say. As this intended NOT to be and not to become a general trivia section, it urgently needs to be renamed to reflect that. Ropers 12:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I sense no urgency here. "Did you know" is already a trivia section. That rule up the top is to stop people trawling through random existing articles to find quirky facts to put on the Main Page. That would degenerate the section into a POV war space. - Mark 14:43, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Mark. In all the time we've had DYK we've only had one or two articles that were old-school and they were identified quite quickly. I think the currently "From wikipedia's newest articles blah blah" thingy is attractive and works well. I kind of would rather have the "All new articles" link back the bottom of the section as well, but I'm not very hung up about it. jengod 19:05, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

T-Mobile team looked too much like an ad. Two days on the front page was JTDM. Stevertigo 16:40, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Let's make sure the articles we're linking to are clean before listing them here
User:Jiang added the Flor Contemplacion article to dyk just after it had been created. The article had no formatting to match the requirements of Manual of style. We really need to make sure that we have clean, mature articles before we start listing them on the templates that appear on the Main page. Rick'''K 20:10, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree that formatting etc should be normalized before posting here. But "mature" rather counteracts the idea that they are from new pages. Pcb21| Pete 11:29, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * And, actually, I don't think they do have to be clean. Total newbies will be all "ew" but it's also an invitation to users who are learning to clean up a worthwhile article and make it extra-shiny. And the "ew" people will either never come back again, or they will and their user experience will equalize (some articles are super-shiny, others need buffing.) jengod 16:12, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

Updating too fast?
Seems to be only an hour or so for most DYK's. The rules seem to hint at 6 hrs or so. Is that something we want to stick closer to? Personally I'd rather not have lots of people refrech the main page every hour for the extra strain on the servers. - Taxman 22:58, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * I think they're moving too fast. I'd prefer DYKs stayed for a day or so, much like the feature.  blankfaze |  (беседа!)  23:21, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

possible candidate
I posted this on User:Angelas page so she kindly directed me here.

Hi Angela, Don't think I've discussed anything with you before but just wondered how pages are chosen for the Did you know section on the front page. I've just written a brief rtcl on Anastasiya Kapachinskaya and find it bizarre that all three medallists from a major athletics event can all be suspended for failing drug tests and could that it could be an interesting did you know candidate. This along with Vita Pavlysh twice being stripped of the same title they are two of the most bizarre athletics stories that I have come across. I know they probably need some work or possibly need to be merged into a stupid athletes or suspended athletes rtcl. any comments appreciated. Scraggy4 23:23, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Same question. Where do I list a new article for consideration for Did you know? I sometimes create a article I think worthy, but feel that it would be too pushy to just feature it myself. -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:58, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * DYK candidates are picked by anyone who has time and inclination to pick them. PLEASE feel free to add something on there yourself. PLEASE. :) jengod 18:59, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

Essay on criticism
Perhaps "essay" in the title more refers to it being an "attempt"? By that definition, it sounds as if it is an essay (an attempt). I fear the caption on the main page appears to ignore the older definition of essay. zoney █ █ █  talk 22:58, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Random DYK
Would it be possible to have a feature similar to Special:randompage that provides random DYK? SimonMayer 08:54, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

DYK suggestions
I've just wrote an (IMHO) nice article about communications with submarines, and now had for the first time a look at how the DYK section is organized. I hesistate to put to be so bold as to put my article right into the the DYK section appearing on the talk page, but I would like to notify those persons who usually maintains DYK of my new article. Maybe I'm not the only one thinking like that. So, why not put up section here on the Talk page for suggestions. I make a start by setting up such a list. Keep it or delete it: ;-) Simon A. 10:25, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Be bold! I wrote a nice new article on Leyton F.C., it had an interesting fact in it, I added it to DYK. And I'm not even a logged-in user - hopefully, no-one will judge it any the worse for that. Why not just do the same? --195.11.216.59 16:41, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Suggestions of new articles to be mentioned in DYK (add here if you have written an new article of interest or spotted one:)
 * communications with submarines

Dabbawallah

 * This section is only for items that have been listed on "NEW PAGES" since the last update of DYK.
 * Then why was Dabbawala added to this page? It was made on 3 June and even got listed on WP:FAC!. - Ta bu shi da yu 10:33, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * My bad. :) jengod 17:08, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Rule change?

 * This section is only for items that have been listed on "NEW PAGES" since the last update of DYK.
 * Maybe we should change this to:This section is only for items that have been listed on "NEW PAGES" for less that 72 hours. to avoid nominations to not be allowed because of premature updating? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 21:30, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. jengod 22:05, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

From rules to instructions
No, I'm not too skeered to add items myself, I'm just too bemused by the whole "template" thing. More after reading the Rules than before. Could the "Rules" please be complemented by a step-by-step "Instruction" on what actually to do? Aimed at the beginner? Not so much focused on what not to do?--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 15:20, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I'll have a go at writing an instruction guide to updating the "Did you know" template. Hang in there! [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 15:34, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

New pages vs new content
I was hoping to list red triangle, for which I've essentially written entirely new content (diff) tonight, but I'm thwarted by the NEWPAGES criterion. Marginally relaxing "new page" to "page that is entirely new content" would recognise the stub slayers and those who rescue copyvios and craptastic VfD candidates too. -- John Fader 04:29, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I second that motion. I've done substantial work to formerly-pathetic ancient articles like Baltic languages, Kanklės and Concertina.  Also, I'm sure a lot of us have thrown up a stub just to get things started and only fleshed out the article weeks later, as I did with Chemnitzer concertina.  --Theodore Kloba 22:12, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

DYK notification template
The DYK notification template links to the DYK template itself... should it link here instead? 68.81.231.127 10:14, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Notification template
I've made a template to notify users of the status of inclusion of an article they created. The template is at Template:UpdatedDYK, and the proper coding to use it is: test, which expands to:  Did you know has been updated and a fact from the article test, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you have another interesting fact to submit, then please suggest it at the section's talk page.

Indent
Hi! Tom, the new indenting looks funny on Firefox. See: Image:Indent-sample-dyk-firefox.jpg. Would you mind reverting or recoding? jengod 21:32, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I haven't seen anything funny on my Firefox 1.0. See Image:Did you know Firefox 1.0 screenshot.png.  ωhkoh [Т] 11:41, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Sadness...it was fixed and great for a while, and now it's back to being strange. See Image:Firefox-indent-screenshot-2.jpg. This revision had it fixed (at least in my browser), with the neat indenting, and then it got wonky again... jengod 22:12, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Should be fixed again. Although I still can't replicate that problem at all in any version of Firefox. Tom- 22:33, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm having similar indenting problems on Mozilla 1.7 right now (took me a while to figure out it was browser-specific). - Nat Krause 09:29, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

72 hours
Should we adapt the 72 hour rule to allow for older facts that were suggested on time, but failed to be featured due to main page formatting or dicersitry issues? Mgm|(talk) 15:02, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

DYK fact incorrectly shortened
The DYK fact that I submitted for Matthias W. Baldwin was incorrectly shortened. The patent for gold plating wasn't developed in 1832, it was developed in the 1820s. His first steam locomotive was developed in 1832. slambo 15:27, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

L'Origine du monde
...that L'Origine du monde, Gustave Courbet's most provocative painting, remained in the privacy of its successive owners for almost 130 years before entering the musée d'Orsay? (created by Sam Hocevar)
 * Suggested:Image:Gustave_Courbet-Nadar.jpg -- Mgm|(talk) 10:45, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Id very much prefer Image:L'Origine_du_monde.jpeg, since the line is about it mainly rather than Courbet. This picture is not "obscene", it is a very famous and classical painting. Rama 10:58, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * (copied from Raul's talk page) Uh, I don't know if there's a specific policy against it, but common sense would say not to. I'm totally against censoring articles in any way (as my actions and comments on penis, clitories, vagina, 'etc have shown), but that doesn't mean we should go out of our way to put images we know will offend some people on our most visited page. →Raul654 18:03, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * Whatever the picture, nice it made it anyway ! :) Rama 08:47, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gwethalyn Graham
"... that in 1944 Gwethalyn Graham was the first Canadian writer to reach number one on The New York Times bestseller list with a novel depicting an interfaith romance between a Protestant woman and a Jewish man? (User:Bearcat) 68.81.231.127 13:18, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)"

I think that this is a little unclear. I first read it as "the first Canadian writer to reach number one on NYT bestseller list with a novel depicting an interfaith...Jewish man" rather than, as I assume it was intended to be interpreted as, "the first Canadian writer to reach number one etc. The novel was about an interfaith etc." As if he's the first Canadian writer to reach number one writing about that subject matter, rather than the just being the first Canadian writer to reach number one, and then mentioning the subject matter of the book. I dunno. Maybe I'm just being a little anal. Cigarette 16:28, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Was bold. Fixed it with a comma.  :) Cigarette 16:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Protected
I have protected this template. I expect after the *major* vandalism yesterday (the goatse image was on the main page for 20 minutes), and that it's the 2nd time this has happened in 2 months, that this will be permanent - we're locking down the main page for good. See the discussion on talk:Main page →Raul654 20:39, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Dalziel and Pascoe
This factoid is not correct according to the article. Rmhermen 15:00, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

First buddhist convert?
shouldn't that be "the first person KNOWN to have converted to Buddhism in America" ? You can't really prove a negative. Doops 15:24, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Picture
Could someone with The Power please add "(pictured)" after Elmer Robinson? Thanks! — MikeX (talk) 05:24, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Elmer Robinson
What kind of DNK is this ...that Elmer Robinson was the 33rd mayor of San Francisco?. Its too bland and nothing is mentioned on his page about his fame. Was ER someone famous before joining office? I hope future DYK entries have more spice to it rather than something which looks like a dry and useless statement to me. Nichalp 20:26, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Alex Deakin
Could someone add

...that weatherman Alex Deakin has a masters degree in astrophysics

 * And could someone add BBC before weatherman? In the States, the weathermen were radical anti-government revolutionaries in the 60's and 70's.  When I first read this item, that was who I thought of.

History of ophthalmology
History of ophthalmology is a copyvio of http://www.mrcophth.com/Historyofophthalmology/Introductory.htm, and needs to be removed from the main page post-haste. —Korath (Talk) 13:18, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 1