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Talk:Free migration

Untitled
THIS ARTICLE IS VERY BIASED AND PRO FREE MIGRATION. SOMEONE FIX THIS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.39.52 (talk) 04:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if someone could provide examples of open immigration. For example, if the US opened its borders to Mexico, to describe what would happen and how things would balance out. MShonle 06:08, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Re: above. What do you mean, balance out? I don't really understand how that would happen.

Anyway, are we sure that Canada offered a policy close to open immigration (for all Europeans) until the 20th century? I don't know either way, but it seems to me that, as a member of the British Empire, they would have restricted non-Anglo/Irish (perhaps French?) immigration at least until the late 19th century. I'm well aware that a lot of non-Anglo immigrants came to Canada as early as the 19th century - Ukranians and so forth - but I'm not certain that it's fair to say they had the same vastly open immigration policy for all of Europe that the US did. Anyone know for sure? Moncrief 06:20, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * By balance out I mean how we would reach a state of equilibrium... some cities would become cheaper to live in, other's would become more expensive to live in. Made me realize I should change the counter-argument to include the case where home values increase instead of decrease (done). Anyway, the ultimate result would be it wouldn't matter where you live so much, because every place would be equally attractive. But I'm not an expert in the econ side of this, so I'd rather not post. MShonle 00:52, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Does anyone object to renaming this "Freedom of Migration" or something along those lines. I was trying to google this to find essays on the subject, and using "Free immigration" found only critizism. "Freedom of Migration" gave me more hits. I'm not sure, but "Free immigration" seems like the term "Baby killers" in the abortion debate. Something only used by one side of the debate. [Not true at all MShonle ] If anyone has the correct NPOV term, please pipe up...--Zenyu 18:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * Free immigration is the term used by its strongest advocates. It's similar to "free trade". If you search the web you'll find people talking about free trade as if it were the most evil concept known to man; but you'll also find the strongest advocates of free trade using that term too. If you want, create a new page for Freedom of Migration and have it simply redirect to this article. But the name of this article should not change because free immigration is already the neutral and academic term for the concept. MShonle 14:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmmm, well thinking about "free trade" I looked at what the Economist calls it, and it seems they call the concept "free migration". See:
 * http://slate.msn.com/id/2073221/
 * http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-31420_ITM&referid=2090
 * http://ideas.repec.org/p/iis/dispap/iiisdp018.html
 * So I'm changing my "Freedom of Migration" suggestion to "Free Migration", the problem with "immigration" is that it concentrates on just one side of the emmigration<-->immigration equation. The side that just happens to be the more controversial. "Freedom of Migration" is probably POV for the other side since "freedom" in English seems to have a more positive memes attached to it than "free" which tends to remind people of both the negatives and positives of allowing personal freedom. "Free Migration" also appears to turn up more useful google results. --Zenyu 18:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * "Free migration" sounds OK to me. (Note that only the first letter is capitalized, per our manual of style.) Please make sure to use the "move" button, rather than cutting and pasting into a new article. Thanks, -Willmcw 18:15, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * The page has been moved. Note that free immigration is still around as a redirect, as is open immigration which is another term used by advocates. MShonle 19:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

 * BTW, Zenyu, it sounds strange to me that you think "freedom" sounds more positive than "free" because you feel "free" gets associated with "freedom." Moreover, I think most serious discusions of the debate don't just focus on pure good versus bad; it's more that freedoms carry with them some costs (for example, less or sometimes no control) but overall the question remains "what is the most effective plan?" and liberty just seems to be the most effective overall. MShonle 04:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Death Penalty for emigration?
I changed

 * The Cold War saw a migration paradox in which the communist states forbid emigrants from leaving (on pain of death)

to

 * The Cold War saw a migration paradox in which the communist states forbid emigrants from leaving

While some communist states might have had the death penalty for illegal emigration, certainly not all of them did, and not for the entire cold war period.

RandomP 02:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

unreferenced since aug 2006
i'm going to be bold and remove unreferenced statements. if you want to re-insert them, please find references.

au revoir —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.7.212 (talk) 03:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

thanks, but...
i looked into one of the references and it doesn't support the statement it claims to: "Many libertarians, socialists, and anarchists advocate open immigration, notwithstanding other noteworthy differences among these three political ideologies" This sounds like the citation sill say that libertarians, sociologists, and anarchists advocate open immigration, but if you click on the link you'll see the piece is very critical of free immigration because of the effect it will have on workers. and it doesn't say anything about sociologists. could whoever inserted this citation please explain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.7.212 (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

 * Shows 'socialists', but not the others. - Francis Tyers · 19:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

 * oops, i thought it said sociologists.  its still uncited but it looks like you are working on it.   i'll leave the unicted stuff in if you two agree to continue polishing?

 * Yup, will do, if you could improve it I'd be glad too. You can add fact tags to parts that you find particularly egregious and I will endeavour to find sources for those first. - Francis Tyers · 11:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The economy
This article is extremely biased. It's garbage. All it talks about is the economy, as if the only thing that should matter to humans is how much money they have... which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their happiness, culture, or quality of life -- besides sometimes having many negative effects on these things. I don't know how to fix the article without deleting the whole thing. Peoplesunionpro (talk) 06:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In the long run a more interwoven world economy will lead to more understanding between people's and cultures, less war and predjudice and a higher quality of life for all. Its only in the short run that friction may occur, and that is where the government can step in to protect those who are "short term losers" in the market, through things like worker retraining programs  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.166.183 (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

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Libertarianism sidebar.
I removed the libertarianism sidebar since, according to the article, this position is advocated by more groups than just libertarians. "Notwithstanding noteworthy differences among these political ideologies, many libertarians, liberals, socialists, and anarchists advocate open immigration". Hence presenting only a single sidebar is not a neutral position. Kleuske (talk) 13:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Well. Then add other sidebars. :) --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 13:09, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:SIDEBAR, and refrain from editwarring. Kleuske (talk) 13:16, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Additionally WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT may be appropriate. Kleuske (talk) 13:16, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You are edit warring. First you requested a source. I gave you the source. Next you found another justification to revert my edit. Now what? I'm reporting this to a noticeboard to ask for suggestions from other editors. --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 13:24, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The policy states Bold, Revert, Discuss. You were bold, I reverted and started the discussion. Once again, see WP:SIDEBAR. That sidebar is inappropriate. Adding a plethora of other sidebars will result in massive clutter. Kleuske (talk) 13:27, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * More reading materials: WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, WP:SOAPBOX. Please read. Thank you. Kleuske (talk) 13:29, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The "source" you provided was a link to one of your own edits. If you think that's a reliable source, WP:CIR is applicable. Kleuske (talk) 13:30, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

 * The sidebar is more than appropriate. I'll do everything in order to add it permanently to that article. What do you think is needed to add that sidebar to that article? Do you think there are needed other sources? I'm open to suggestions. (If you don't have any constructive suggestions, then I would consider your comportment as just hostile towards "libertarianism" or against me - even though I'm new here). 2. There are other articles with more than one sidebar. We can put the sidebars in a collapsed mode. Waiting for suggestions, if you have any... 3. The source was a Book about libertarianism and the basic libertarian positions. --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 13:35, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not reading those pages. Stop acting like a bureaucrat. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think no sidebar of any political view should be added. I especially object to this one since it a) gives WP:UNDUE weight to one political conviction, b) is not one of libertarianisms main ideologies and is in fact disputed amongst libertarians. Moreover, given your response I have the impression that you're WP:NOTHERE to help build an encyclopedia, but instead use Wikipedia as a WP:SOAPBOX for your political views. I have requested a third opinion. Kleuske (talk) 13:43, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok. I think there's space for more than 1 sidebar. I'll start editing the article in order to ad a section about libertarian theorists and authors who support and write about free movement of people. You are free to write about other ideologies/authors of other ideologies writing about free movement of people. If you are lazy and don't want to do that (add content from other ideologies) that doesn't give you the moral right and legitimacy to remove content that someone else adds, especially if sourced and is proportional to other parts of the article. --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Again... WP:BRD. Please gain consensus, which you have not. A promise to write something is not a valid substitute for actual sources or talk-page consensus. I still strongly object to a) the Libertarianism sidebar and b) the attitude you display here. Kleuske (talk) 13:57, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Articles with more than 1 sidebar : 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-authoritarianism 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire  4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty  --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 14:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Free migration is not an intrinsically libertarian idea; its promotion by the EU and CIS make that obvious (let alone the nationalist libertarians who reject it). The argument for multiple sidebars is essentially falling back on other stuff exists, which is a weak argument. Those examples show that multiple sidebars don't contribute meaningfully to navigation, and clutter up articles.

Also, GL, you would do well to understand that Wikipedia does in fact act under a bureaucracy; it even has official WP:Bureaucrats. It's a flexible bureaucracy, but it operates more by rule of law than by force of will, and is inherently cooperative in nature. If you're going to do more than just try to promote your philosophy here, you'll need to get used to that. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:58, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

 * You say: "Free migration is not an intrinsically libertarian idea". Neither are these 2 other concepts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-authoritarianism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty . Nevertheless they are very fundamental to libertarian theory and philosophy. Those 2 articles I've linked, as well as a great number of other articles, have more than 1 sidebar. That doesn't seem to be a problem in those articles. --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 15:11, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Nationalist libertarians – as exemplified by factions in the Tea Party movement – are very much opposed to free migration. And "doesn't seem to be a problem" is simply your opinion; I disagree. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:19, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as "nationalist libertarians", although I know some people who call themselves in a such way. Libertarian theory and principles are very clear about free movement of people. (It's another problem the articles in Wikipedia are not very well writen to represent libertarian theory..). Also the Tea Party, although has some libertarian concepts as for example distrust of Washington DC in no way libertarian. Here's a source for you: " 95. Is the Tea Party libertarian? Overall, the Tea Party movement is not libertarian, though it has many libertarian elements, and many libertarians are Tea Partiers. [...] They share the libertarian view that DC tends to be corrupt, and that Washington often promotes special interests at the expense of the common good. However, Tea Party members are predominantly populist, nationalist, social conservatives rather than libertarians. Polls indicate that most Tea Partiers believe government should have an active role in promoting traditional “family values” or conservative Judeo-Christian values. Many of them oppose free trade and open immigration. They tend to favor less government intervention in the domestic economy but more government intervention in international trade. " (Jason Brennan(2012) Libertarianism What Everyone Needs to Know Oxfrod University Press (Page 142)) --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 15:33, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And why should anyone take your word for it? It sounds like a No true scotsman to me. Kleuske (talk) 17:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Learn to comprehend what you read. It's not my word. Is a quote from a reliable source. (Jason Brennan(2012) Libertarianism What Everyone Needs to Know Oxfrod University Press (Page 142)) --GLOBALIST LIBERTARIAN (talk) 10:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

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History section?
I know nothing about this but would love to read the history of both restricted and free migration Dakinijones (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Free migration


text:
A-type asteroid

A-type asteroids are relatively uncommon inner-belt asteroids that have a strong, broad 1 μm olivine feature and a very reddish spectrum shortwards of 0.7 μm. They are thought to come from the completely differentiated mantle of an asteroid, and appear to have a high density. One survey found that 7 similar A-, V- and X-type asteroids had an average density of $3.6 g/cm3$.

List
A-type asteroids are so rare that as of February 2019, only 17 had been discovered:

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: A-type asteroid


text:
Badgers (animation)

"Badgers", also known informally as "Badger Badger Badger" or "The Badger Song", is a Flash animated meme by British animator Jonti Picking, also known as Mr Weebl. It consists of 12 animated cartoon badgers doing calisthenics, a mushroom in front of a tree, and a snake in the desert. The Flash cartoon is accompanied by a bass line, above which a voiceover sings the names of what is shown on screen.

The Flash cartoon went live on B3ta.com on 2 September 2003 at 3:49 a.m. GMT. The cartoon loops indefinitely.

According to Mr Weebl, the inspiration behind "The Badger Song" comes from the song Saturday Night by Whigfield: "[Saturday Night] has a duck quacking throughout. I decided that the tune needed an annoying squeak sound in the background. The lyrics were meant to be a placeholder, but much like The Riddle by Nik Kershaw, the placeholder became the actual thing."

Critical reception
The cartoon brought Picking to the attention of MTV Europe, for whom Picking produced Weebl and Bob. That cartoon series, together with the dancing badgers, helped Picking's website Weebl's Stuff win a People's Choice award from users of Yahoo! in the UK. "Badger Badger Badger" was also listed as one of the top five internet fads of all time by PC World in 2009.

Follow-up versions
There have been several follow ups to the "Badger Badger Badger" cartoon posted to the Weebl's Stuff website. "Badgers 2" was created in 2003, and features zombie badgers on a black background with a scratching sound added to the music. A Christmas-themed version, with the badgers dressed in Santa Claus suits, the mushroom replaced with a present, and the snake replaced with baby Jesus in a nativity scene, is also available, and was made for the 2004 Weebl Advent Calendar. "Badgers on a Plane" consists of a scene from a Snakes on a Plane trailer that includes badgers and a mushroom, which have been digitally edited into the scene, tumbling from their seats while a bit of the song plays in the background. In 2007, "Big Ass Badgers" was released to spoof the Transformers film. Also in 2007, a live action version of the cartoon called "Baby Badgers" was released to promote the new Badger toys.

A "Euro 2004 Edition" was also created during the UEFA Euro 2004 football championship, where the badgers wore England football jerseys to "footy, footy, footy" and "England! England! Goal! A goal! Oh, it's a goal, scored by England, England..." A new version titled "Footy 2010" was created for the 2010 FIFA World Cup with vuvuzelas drowning out the audio. Another version, titled "Realistic Football Badgers", was created in response to England's loss in the 2014 FIFA World Cup.

The song is referenced in the January 2004 comic strips of JD Fraser's User Friendly. A few of the characters interpreted "the song goes on about badgers, mushrooms and a snake" and that the song does not make sense.

A parody by a group called Fifth District, titled "Potter Potter Potter", depicts several images of Harry Potter dancing on the Hogwarts Campus, one image of Ron Weasley dancing in another area of the campus, and Severus Snape advancing menacingly toward the figures of the bespectacled wizarding teen, with a Whomping Willow tree and flying hippogriffs in the background. The chant is "Potter Potter Potter Potter" and "Weasley! Weasley!" and "Snape! Snape! Oh, it's a Snape!".

In 2011, a dubstep version called "Guess I Got My Badger Back" was released based on "Swagga" by Excision & Datsik. On 6 April 2011 he uploaded a 3D version.

A new version of the song was launched on the Moshi Monsters website, where the Monsters appear on the screen as, "Moshi Moshi" is sung instead. Every now and then, there is a break where "Monster", or even rarer, "Moshling", is said instead.

On 6 March 2013, Canadian musician Devin Townsend released a previously unreleased cover of the song while recording the album Deconstruction.

Another adaptation of the song, "Save the Badger Badger Badger", was released on 19 May 2013, in response to proposed badger culling in the United Kingdom. The song features vocals and guitar from Brian May and visuals reminiscent to the 1980 film Flash Gordon, in addition to vocals from Weebl and Brian Blessed. Some of the song's lyrics are changed.

On 2 September 2023, Weebl's Stuff uploaded "20 Years of Badgers" in honour of the original Flash video's 20th anniversary.

title: Badgers (animation)


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Swamp Terrorists

The Swamp Terrorists were a Swiss electro-industrial music group that was formed in 1988 by STR, Ane H, and Francis H. Their music is harsh pounding electro-industrial/industrial hip hop beats, turntables and occasional rapping mixed with grinding metal guitar riffs (which are usually sampled from other heavy metal bands), and produces a sound similar to Die Warzau, KMFDM and White Zombie.

History
'Swamp Terrorists' were a Swiss electro-industrial music group that was started in the late 1980s by synthesizer programmer STR, (of Band Berne Crematoire, Nacht-Raum, and Strangler of the Swamp fame), vocalist Ane Hebeisen (aka Ane H), (formerly of Tierstein) and guitarist Francis H. Francis H departed from the group after the release of their first EP He is Guilty, after which Ane and STR recorded their first album Grim – Stroke – Disease together and released it on the Machinery/Noise label in 1991. About a year later, it was followed by Grow – Speed – Injection.

Shortly after the 1994 album Combat Shock, Swamp Terrorists added several members for their live show: bassist Anrej A, guitarist Spring and drummer Piet Hertig. The band had a dedicated following in Brazil, where they have toured and where their international fan club was based.

STR left the band immediately following the 1995 release Killer, and began to work with the guitar-heavy Hellsau. The other four members of the band, as well as STR's live replacement ND, have since released a live album, Five in Japan and 2 EPs: Wreck in 1997, and Rare & Unreleased in 1999, on Metropolis Records. The band has been inactive since.

Discography
Studio albums
 * Grim – Stroke – Disease (1990, Machinery)
 * Grow – Speed – Injection (1991, Machinery)
 * Combat Shock (1993, Alfa International/Contempo)
 * Killer (1996, Metropolis)

Live albums
 * Five in Japan (1997, Metropolis)

Compilation albums
 * Rare & Unreleased (1999, Metropolis)

EPs
 * He Is Guilty (1989, 150 BPM)
 * Nightmare (1991, Noise)
 * The Pale Torment EP (1994, Sub/Mission)
 * The Get O. EP (1994, Sub/Mission)
 * Dive-Right Jab: The Remixes (1995, Sub/Mission)
 * Wreck (1996, Metropolis)

Singles
 * "Rebuff!" (1991, Machinery)

Compilation appearances

 * Trans Europa (A Swiss - Swedish Techno-Compilation) – (LP) 1989, Side A, Track #5 "Old Greyhound" - 150 BPM Records • (CD) 1989, Track #5 "Old Greyhound" - 150 BPM Records
 * How To Use Machinery – (CD) 1991, Track #2 "So Sweet - It's Painful" - Machinery
 * Tekk-Banger's Ball – (2xCD) 1992, Disc #2, Track #4 "Ratskin" - ZYX Records
 * Funky Alternatives 7 – (CD) 1993, Track #3 "Rebuff (Exclusive Mix) " - Concrete Productions
 * Grid Slinger – (LP) 1993, Side B, Track #1 "Come Back" - Re-constriction Records, Cleopatra
 * How To Use Machinery II – (CD) 1993, Track #9 "Skizzo Pierce" and Track #11 "The Vault" - Machinery
 * Terror - An Industrial Metal Compilation – (CD) 1993 Track #6 "Braintrash" - Mental Decay • (2xLP) 1993, Side B, Track #3 "Braintrash" - Mental Decay
 * Trans Europa 2 (Swiss-Italian Techno-Crossover) – (CD) 1993, Track #6 "Cynic Forage (Remix)" - 150 BPM Records
 * Chaos Compilation – (CD) 1994, Track #8 "Get O. (LP Mix)" - COP International
 * Helvetic Art Compilation – (CD) 1994, Track #4 "Liberator" - Hall of Sermon
 * The Digital Space Between – (CD) 1994, Track #11 "Pale Torment (Convert Single Remix)" - Hard Records
 * Dion Fortune Sampler Vol. IV – (2xCD) 1995, Disc #1, Track #4 "Dicksmoker" - Dion Fortune
 * Frostbyte – (CS, Promo) 1995, Side A, Track #2 "Come Back" and Side B, Track #1 "Liberator" - Re-constriction Records
 * Magnetic Submission – (CD) 1995, Track #9 "Dive-Right Jab" - Musica Maxima Magnetica, Sub/Mission Records
 * New Industries – (CD) 1995, Track #9 "Braintrash" - Dynamica
 * Apocalypse Now 1 – (2xCD) 1996, Disc #1, Track #3 "Dive-Right Jab (Til You Drop)" - Sub Terranean
 * Built For Stomping – (CD, Promo) 1996 - Track #14 "Liberator" - Re-constriction Records, Cleopatra
 * Elektrauma Vol. 3 – (CD) 1996, Track #8 "Wreck (U.S. Version)" - 	Discordia
 * Funky Alternatives - Best of Volume One to Eight – (CD, Box) 1996, Track #11 "Rebuff (Exclusive Mix)" - Concrete Productions, Indigo
 * Industrial Revolution: 3rd Edition Rare & Unreleased – (2xCD) 1996, Disc #1, Track #13 "Dive-Right Jab (Till You Drop)" - Cleopatra
 * Sound-Line Vol. 4 – (CD) 1996, Track #9 "Shape of Rage" - Side-Line
 * Sweet Sub/Mission – (CD) 1996, Track #1 "Dive-Right Jab ('Til You Drop KMFDM Remix)" and Track #2 "Rebel Shade (Rough Edit)" - Sub/Mission Records
 * 'Sweet Sub/Mission Vol. 1 – (CD) 1996, Track #1 "Dive-Right Jab ('Til You Drop KMFDM Remix)" and Track #2 "Rebel Shade" - Fifth Colvmn Records
 * The Digital Space Between Vol. 3 – (CD) 1996, Track #6 "Get O. (Twisted Mix) - Cleopatra
 * Industrial Virus – (3xCD, Box) 1997, Disc #2, Track #3 "Rebuff (Remix) - Dressed to Kill
 * Minimal Synth Ethics 4 – (CD) 1997, Track #3 "Try My Flesh (Visceral Penetration)" - Cri Du Chat
 * More Exclusive Alternatives – (CD) 1997, Track #8 "Rebuff" - Cleopatra
 * Industrial Hazard – (3xCD, Box) 1998, Disc #2, Track #3 "Rebuff (Remix)" - Dressed to Kill
 * Five Years of Electronic Tears – (2xCD) 1999, Disc #2, Track #3 "Pale Torment (Convert Single Mix)" - Cyberware Productions
 * Machines and Noise (Volume 2) – (CD) 2002, Track #5 "Rebuff" - Mastertech Pty Ltd.

title: Swamp Terrorists


text:
User talk:AaronW

Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions. Hope you like it here and decide to stick around. If you want, drop us a note at New user log to introduce yourself.

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Happy editing, Isomorphic 06:24, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

2 Stupid Dogs
About your edit to 2 Stupid Dogs, I can't understand why you call Powerpuff Girls "immensely popular". Apparently, it isn't on TV that much, and its merchandise isn't advertised much anymore. It's more POV anyway, not necessarily a fact. --Marcus2

 * Hi. I meant the phrase "immensely popular" to be a descriptor of the success of "Powerpuff Girls", not its quality. It was in contrast to "2 Stupid Dogs". While "2 Stupid Dogs" was never very successful, and not widely known, "Powerpuff Girls" was, at its height, big enough to be a part of the mainstream US culture. The characters were recognizable to a large percentage of the population, its merchandise was sold at several chain stores, and it even had a nationally-released motion picture in the theaters (although it wasn't very successful).

 * The point being that, to the average viewer of "2 Stupid Dogs", it would be interesting to note its visual similarity to "Powerpuff Girls", a show they're likely to be more familiar with. But in retrospect, I agree that the descriptor "immensely popular" can sound like impartial praise.--AaronW 22:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think Powerpuff Girls was merely pretty popular, but never "enough to be a part of the mainstream US culture", and its success wasn't even close to Pokemon or even Rugrats. --Marcus2

 * PPG certainly didn't last as long as either Pokemon or Rugrats. Unfortunately, I don't have any hard data on the relative popularity of these shows, just vague guesses based mostly on how much of them I saw in the media. So, you'll just have to use your best judgement. As with all things in Wikipedia, I wrote the statement in the hope that if someone came along with more accurate information, they would correct my mistake. :) --AaronW 22:50, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

English
Hi. Please disambiguate English on your user page. For example, English. Thanks. RedWolf 02:48, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:AaronW


text:
Talk:Slovene language/Archive 1

This language
I just didn't understand the following at all.

One of the characteristics of this language is the future tense where we have
 * bom bos bo bomo boste bodo plus past participle.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Larry Sanger (talk • contribs) 20:05, 14 September 2001 (UTC)

"Dual" is a concept unfamiliar to speakers of English and most Western European languages - you need to explain that one with lots of examples!

i always thought that no Slavic language still had "dual" numbers. In Polish we have few archaical remnants in few proverbs and in some sentences (madrej glowie dosc dwie slowie, instead of: madrej glowie dosc dwa slowa as it should be in modern usage and similar...). Very interesting.

And i actually understand examples :) video is "i see", right? szopen]]

 * Upha. It is very challeging for me to explain my own native language here but I have to keep in mind I am not strictly speaking some grammarian, linguist; philologist or Slovenist ? (= slovenist) - an expert for Slovenistics ? (= slovenistika). Yes szopen you have understand that correctly but unfortunately this particular case was written uncorectly. Let me show. It is simple. That particular verb (= glagol) previous written as absurd in Slovene video (= to see) must be written (On je) videl (= (He) saw). Verb to see is videti and thus it is the "word" all should search in Slovene dictionary of literary (written) language of any kind. My reference for this is Slovar slovenskega knjižnega jezika -a very thick book unbearable even for Slovenes because of its weight, ha, ha. Its computer version 1.0 is more preferable for comp users. This book was written with a great deal of help from computational scientist Primož Jakopin who had recently made his doctor's degree on subjects of the similar field. By his own in early 1980-ies he made some programmes mainly with and on ATARI computers - which made creation of such huge work possible. Authors had also rejected the project to be done with TeX posibilities. So video is like we would depravated say, (or better write) to syea or something like that.

 * Another back question goes to Derek Ross. What have you changed in your last edition of main article with spelling. I think Slovene spelling is very tuff subject to explain for an average speaker to non - Slovene beginner. Main differents goes to the famouos, let us say anti ASCII leters Č, Š and Ž. Some briefly for these characters write: "C, "S, "Z. In TeX for example is another muddle. According to original Knuth's notation it should be roughly written as \v{c}, \v{s}, \v{z}. I use up to now the oldfashioned and very bad notation based on old DOS and early Windows applications Slavic ASCII characters adopted in Former Yugoslavia as ^, [, @ for capitals (initials)and ~, {, ` for small letters, thus across TeX macro we get weird \^, \[, \@ and \~, \{, \`. This is absolutely bad acceptance for TeX but we won't get into details here. I'll just write that we fall into TeX's proper problems (i.e. math mode and of course the Knuth's 'theory' of hyphenization). These kind of questions are usually solved by TeXCeH a Slovene TeX users group, but they mainly deal with LaTeX which is not bijective to TeX.

 * So spelling would be treated soon. //Hey XJ look up more carefully spelling not pronunciation. My mistake but let it stay because spelling and pronunciation are somehow conected. I'll give here some example how to pronounce those three Letters Ch, Sh, Zh.

 * čok (almost like chalk, meaning tree-stump)
 * šok (almost like shock, meaning of course shock)
 * žolč (almost like coach if we swap [/kouch/] to [/jouch/] meaning strangely gall) Lep pozdrav (Nice greetings) Rastafire 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (0)

videti and videl are even more familiar (widzieć, widział) than video... And Szok and Żółć are almost the same. Problems with TeX are it seems also quite similar. Rastafire, if Slovene is name for your nation, then how you call all Slavs? I mean, Slovene sounds almost like Slowianie... szopen]]

 * Simple. We call them Slovani, singular Slovan. I wasn't aware of such similarities beetwen Polish and Slovene language. I know a lot (for me perhaps at most) similarities with plain and pure Russian language. If they use other alphabet, it does not make any difference to me. We are neighbouring to Croatia and I think with this statement I can open some serious debate which language is the most similar to Slovene one. All would say that Croatian language and Serbian language - sometimes both called together as Serbo-Croatian language are, Bosnian language. Some say that this language is Bulgarian language, or Czech language and for Slovenes harder Slovak language. There are a lot of similarities of course with Macedonian language, but let my statement ramains. (Don't kill me for nothing because of that]]. I can't comprehend Polish alphabet too. Can you give us the whole one? In Slovene language there are 25 unique letters and thus characters, but in computers' world it's a little bit different. Let me write

 * A,B,C,Č,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,R,S,Š,T,U,V,Z,Ž.

 * (Western ones Q,W,X,Y are excluded, some Southern Slavic characters too Ć,Đ, but in our encyclopedia's we use them all. This goes to Zundark's strict demand to use here only and only English sorting what in the end makes a lot of sence. We small nations respect the greater ones and it should be vice versa. So you can imagine Slovene programmers to implement even some easy and standard sorting methods. Dear Polish M8 I am also interested in Russian influence (bad or good) to Polish nation. Živjo (Bye) --XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (1st ed.)

Polish alphabet : A Ą B C Ć D E Ę F G H I J K L Ł M N Ń O Ó P R S Ś T U W X Y Z Ż Ź

In fact i very often heard and read that X isn't part of Polish alphabet, but it is used very widely. We don't use Q or V, except for foreign words. Ą, Ę are nasal vowels, sometimes degenerating into simple om and en, ó is the same as u, and Ć,Ś and Ń are sof C,S and N. Ł is like w in english wood. Ż is like Zh, ź is soft Z. Of course we have also ch, sz, cz, rz to denote some sounds: ch is the same as h (this is purely historical difference, once they were pronounced differently) rz is like ż (again, historical difference), sz like sh, cz like ch in english. When we want to have some fun from foreigner, we ask him to repeat suchą szosą Sasza szedł or Nie pieprz Pietrze wieprza pieprzem, or, the best, w Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie. No one Westerner is able to pronounce that :)

I guess all Slavic languages are more or less comprehensible. I remember when i was in Czech as a kid, i could easily communicate with Czechs. Except, of course, that i have to hold my laugh :). And, interestingly, one of Arabs i know told me once that he wasn;t able once to tell difference between French, Polish and other European languages...

In Russian influence, i guess you mean linguistic: well, we had it a lot. They are called rusycyzmy and are words and order of words in sentence etc, and they are generally discouraged (heh, i came from city where having a good mark from Russian was generally considered bad idea).

Anyway, Wikipedia policy is against chats on talk pages, so i suppose we would have to end it :-(. Trzymaj sie cieplo (keep warm (or something like that)), szopen

 * Hey man. VERY VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING. Thank you very much. This is more than just pure chat for me. I meant all kind of Russian influence but thanks anyway. Try the same to say this from Slovene: Klop pod kopljo again very fast. It's hard to say even for us, ha, ha. Polish rusycyzmy is Slovene rusizem, and plural rusizmi. Is singular in Polish as rusycyz(e)m, correct? Spasibo --XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (2st ed.)

To Primož

Yes Primož, I do not want to be a hairsplitter, but I had really found the mixed terms "Freising manuscripts" (which is OK) and "wrong" term "Freisinger monuments" (German - English mixture). You can check this strange statements (navedbe) all around. But I can spare you that time. This was not my typo mistake, so I'll leave what you had corrected. As we all know, English speaking people sometimes use dirrect German phrases as f.l.a.k., Gauss Einsatz, and so on. Best regard. -- XJamRastafire 08:02 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)

To user:Damian Yerrick QUOTE Western proper nouns or toponyms are not translated in full, as they are in Slavic languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet, such as Russian or Serbian./QUOTE -- Good guess, but sorry, look at the http://www.vets.edu.yu/im/htm/Radionica/Matematicari/Njutn.htm or http://www.medijaklub.cg.yu/kultura/arhiva/11-00/7-11.htm for example of "Njutn". Not only Cyrillic-script Serbian, but Croatian, Bosnian etc. So I changed this paragraph. user:Vassili Nikolaev
 * Yes, Vassili a good point. And let us clear this a bit more. Your first and second URL are all written and come from a Serbian 'teritory'. It shows off. Croats and Bosnians use strictly Western names. This is in fact somekind of an agreement and I think Damian is not right. Your restoration is therefore correct. I've seen a lot of text continuing both - names in written form and in original form (e.g. Njutn (Newton)), but I've seen even more texts without both forms. For instance I have one good Serbian university textbook from the astronomy, written in Latin, but without original Western names for astronomers. I can't get a full help from its index because I still don't know for some astronomers stated there. Serbs usually say: Pisi kao sto govoris (Write as you speak). Croats could decide to write as Serbs - but obviously they didn't. You can compare these two further Serbian and Croatian URLs -- XJamRastafire 11:14 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire. Thanks for explanation, I was not sure about Bosnain and Croatian, now I know that only Serbian change original Western names. I think this is because Cyrillic is considered a main Serbian script and Latin script just follows Cyrillic spelling. user:Vassili Nikolaev
 * I guess - but I am not 100 % shure. We should ask one fully expert of Serbo-Croatian language. Does Russians always change Western names when they write in original alphabet? I know they sometimes write in Latin (specially on the web) - but if I am honest I can't read that, if I don't endeavour myself. I do believe that Slovenes might write as Russians do, if they had decided long ago and vice versa. Cheers. -- XJamRastafire 11:45 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire No, the general practice is to preserve original Latin spelling for the names originated from Latin-script languages. The problem here is that Russians unfrotunately often don't know and don't care about original spelling, using transliterartion form Russian instead. That's why Nyuton or Njuton sometimes can be found on Russian web-pages. User:Vassili Nikolaev 12:18 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

This article is full of factual information, but isn't it way to long and detailed for an encyclopedia article about a relatively minor language? Shoudln't it be on a web site somewhere? Zocky 13:21 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

 * Nah, it just needs some reorganization. Wikipedia has no size limits. --Eloquence

 * Well, we can't put everything into it, can we? At least move most of the stuff to another article and just leave "what slovene is" in this one. Zocky 13:32 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

 * It's not really that long -- cf. long pages. But if you want to move some stuff, just go ahead. --Eloquence
 * This article is still in a phase of formation, so whether it is long or not, it is hard to say for now. Yes, the language is minor according to its speakers, although even this is not true. This language is among the 10 % of the world's populations as English and Welsh philologist David Crystal recently said. Its organization is mentioned for example as some others articles about languages (see for example Hebrew language). In this stage everything is still in one layer -- but this will change soon... I like it very much anyway. --XJamRastafire 14:50 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

editing
I have edited the section on the history of Slovenian. I took out a lot of (confusing) prose about the details of Freising manuscripts because they belong on that page, not here. I removed the David Crystal quote as it didn't seem to provide any useful information that isn't already elsewhere on the page or Wikipedia, and it seemed POV. I instead added a paragraph about the status of the language since Slovenian independence. I'm not certain if it's entirely correct, so please feel free to fix anything wrong with it. Also, since I found much of the section difficult to understand, I'm not sure that my treatment of German borrowings is correct. I think the section overall is certainly clearer, but if there are any errors, please fix them, but try not to just revert to the previous content as it was not written clearly. I also changed the name of the section to conform to WikiProject Languages. I am hoping to fix the rest of the sections soon, as they too suffer from a lack of clarity and organization. Nohat 23:01, 2004 Mar 17 (UTC)

status
I think Slovene has no official status in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Slovene was only officially recognized by Italy as one of the minoritary languages with la legge n. 482 del 15 dicembre 1999 and given privileges with  la legge 38/2001 di tutela della minoranza slovena. Boraczek 10:12, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

phoneme
In my opinion dž is a phoneme in Slovene. It's distinct from č (a minimal pair džem : čem). And it has different pronunciation than d-ž (like in podžupan) even though I don't know if there are any minimal pairs. It's very rare in Slovene and probably it only occurs in loanwords, but there's no reason to exclude it from the list of Slovenian phonemes. Boraczek 11:20, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it only exists in loan words because it isn't a part of the language. It is the same as the southern slavic "đ", it is only written as "dž" because of lack of the letter. It's very much like writing a german name with an "ü" down using an "i". Another example would be names being written down in german using "ü" in Austria-Hungary because they had no more appropriate letter to assign. That's for example why the current president's last name is Türk instead of Turk, while the actual sound is more of a very strong "u", or something between a "u" and an "o". The same thing still keeps happening in Slovenia, like with the term "borovo gostüvanje", while it would actually be better written down as "gostuovanje" or "gostouovanje"(but still not very accurate). The same way "dž" is a different sound than "đ", but was simply used to write it down. If a word like "džungla" is written down in a slovene form, instead of the original "jungle", that doesn't make the sound slovene, just like writing down "Washington" as "Uošington" or "Vašington" and pronouncing it the american way wouldn't make the "w" slovene. I do however aggree that "đž" in words transcribed in this way usually can't be pronounced in any other way than "đ". Generally if the origin isn't slovene, it isn't considered a slovene sound. But I'm no linguist so let's wait for someone more fit to anwser this to come along. Regards =) 195.210.248.41 (talk) 16:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Pupils in primary school are taught, that Slovene language uses 29 phonemes and 25 letters. The phonems that lack their own letters are "dž", "wide e", "wide o" and schwa. "dž" is certainly a Slovene phoneme, appearing in words like ENAČBA (ČB is read as DŽ). I should know, I passed my matura a few years ago. :)--92.37.77.14 (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

yup, "dž" IS a slovenian phonem, it only does not have its own letter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.153.35.53 (talk) 09:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

accentual norms
The term "accentual norms" is used in the first paragraph. I don't know what this means, and this seems to be the only article in the whole of wikipedia that uses the term. Is there perhaps another term we could use, or could someone please create a new entry for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.98.14 (talk) 01:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Slovenian translations of section headings
What purpose do they serve? None of the other language articles have them, and as far I can tell they're basically just a almost-completely-useless set of Slovenian words that have been added to the article. I'm not sure that there is any value at all in knowing how to say "geographic distribution" in Slovenian to someone who is just getting an overview of the language. I'd say delete them, as they add basically useless clutter to the article. Nohat 22:22, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * We have it on Belarusian language, but only in grammar-specific part, e.g. noun (nazounik) and pronoun (zajmiennik). --rydel 03:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, well after over a month without objection, I removed them. Nohat 03:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

New template
New template has been created (copied from Commons):. It appears like this:. It works also by using:

Cheers! --Eleassar777 17:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * template:Slovene
 * template:Slovenian
 * template:Slovene flag.

Basic phonology
I removed the following addition to the "Sounds"-section.

 * Basic comparison of English and Slovenian consonants
 * Only three characters in Slovenian alphabet can not be found in English alphabet as well. They are all consonants with the following pronounciations.
 * Č (č) - pronounced like ch in China,
 * Š (š) - pronounced like sh in hush,
 * Ž (ž) - pronounced like s in leisure.

 * Some characters that can be pronounced in different ways in English, however in Slovenian have standard pronounciations.
 * C (c) - pronounced like ts in cats,
 * E (e) - pronounced like e in bed,
 * G (g) - pronounced like g in god,
 * H (h) - pronounced like h in honey,
 * I (i) - pronounced like ee in bee,
 * J (j) - pronounced like y in yard (notice that sound j from jazz has to be written with the sequence of two characters dž in Slovenian, therefore džez),

A table of IPA with (mostly) phonemes is as basic as you can get. IPA is quite unambiguous for encyclopedic purposes and in those cases where it isn't, it should be supplemented with sound files, not written language and comparisons with English which can never be particularly satisfactory. The section above is based on the assumption that written language is the norm on which pronunciation is based on. A description of the phonology of a language can certainly use orthography of the language in examples, but it should not be an attempt at a letter-to-sound list. That should be covered under "Writing system" (and it already is).

Peter Isotalo 11:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Dialect section
Could someone write something a bit more neutral about Slovene dialects? No serious linguists actually tally dialects, since these can vary not just from one region to another, but usually from one village to another, which might as well bring the number up into the hundreds or even thousands. There should be a description of the major dialect groups instead. Also, please try to avoid the overt bragging about how much more diverse Slovene is compared to "other languages". My guess is that it's hardly more varied than most languages, and if it is, it needs to be referenced and explained in a neutral fashion.

Peter Isotalo 14:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Your guess is wrong. I did not write the section on dialects, but I challenge you to find another language nearly as varied. http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profiles/profs03.htm (compare this profile to those of other languages) BT2 16:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * How can I possibly verify that no other language is more varied unless I check every single language in the world? The link you provided states that it is pretty varied, but it doesn't go nearly as far as the overt bragging in the dialect section. I reworded now and I'm hoping for more facts and fewer peacock terms.
 * Peter Isotalo 11:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Question
Could a Slovenian speaker tell me what the reflexes of the Proto-Slavonic "tj" and "dj" are in Slovenian? For example the Proto-Slavonic "tj" in /svetja/ (candle) gives in Old Ch. Sl. and Bulgarian ( and ), in Russian,  in Serbian ( in Serbo-Croatian, etc. Pls, answer here or on my talk page, thank you very much! VMORO 23:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It is . Semprio 11:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Consonant list
I don't understand the purpose of listing allophones (such as [F]) in the table of consonants. If they should be included (even in brackets), why aren't they listed on pages of other languages? It is, I believe, unnecessary and confusing. Also, as a native speaker of Slovene, I know that the /r/ I pronounce is a trill, not a tap, even in non-sonorant environments. What's more, I don't think that dental articulation needs to be marked in phonetic transcription... /t/, /d/, and even /n/ are dental in Slovene in all cases... I will edit the page so that it looks better to me. If anyone has any counter-arguments, please list them. Semprio 11:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Semprio, please refer to proper linguistic literature when editing phonology sections. Preferably material written by trained phoneticians. The Slovenian /r/ is analyzed as a tap by a Slovenian phonetician in the IPA handbook. What are you comparing your own pronunciation with?
 * Peter Isotalo 14:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I rewrote most of the sounds section and removed almost all of the old material, which was quite incomprehensible, even for someone with an avid interest in phonetics. All the additions are based on the Slovenian entry in the IPA handbook.
 * Peter Isotalo 14:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Slovenian as a second language
Added a link to "Slovenian Language and Culture Lessons in Switzerland and Austria". These are organised by the Slovenian education ministry and officially recognised by the Swiss authorities. I believe there are similar programmes running in other parts of the world. I thought the link might be useful to potential learners of the language (as I am) and that it fitted best in this section. Forgive me if I was mistaken. ralphb.
 * Found & added links for Slovenian language resources in Australia and USA also. Likely similar resources in Hungary and Italy are probably beyond my googling abilities.  ralphb. 13:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sposojenka and tujka
Hi, I'm writing an article about mercury (the element), which had first been translated in French as hydrargyre then later as vif-argent (quicksilver). These two word means exactly the same thing, but one with Latin etymology and the second with French one.

I see the same kind of distinction than between sposojenka and tujka, but I can't find a Wikipedia entry for foreign word. Do you know of such a dual process of assimiliation in English? Especially, are there different names for different degree of adoption? Reply to David Latapie 10:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Try this for size: loanword. Btw, I think this would also be the more apropriate term to use in the article. Being a Slovene native speaker, I can see why somebody would want to use the term "foreign word", but I don't think it works that way in English.--213.172.246.40 23:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * See also calque. 惑乱 分からん 01:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Geographic names
Why do we need so many examples of geographic names? We should remember that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. IMO, we should use them only to illustrate some general principles. --Eleassar my talk 13:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I moved names from a Slovenian alphabet, even less appropriate place for them. But I agree. --AndrejJ 18:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Now I have been bold and have removed them entirely. As I said, we're not a dictionary and I don't see any need for them. Here is the content:.

Slovenian is not a south slavic language - of course it is
I must remind you that Slovenian is not a south slavic language but a western one. It belongs to the same group as Clovak and Czech. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.81.246.92 (talk)

 * I must remind you that this is not true. It's South Slavic all right. --romanm (talk) 12:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I must disagree. First, slovak and slovenian lanugages have much more in common than slovenian and south slavic lanugages like Croation or Macedonian.

Second, if one would study the history of Central Europe, it would become clear that the Slavs that inhabited the teritory of todays Austria, Slovenia and Slovakia were the same group and that Croatians were another tribe, coming from other teritories.

I've added a few words on this to the page, with a reference to an instructive book review which reveals interesting facts about Slovene. I recommend the review to anyone who is interested, but let me add a few points here. Everyone will be aware that all these supposedly scientific and objective questions of classification are highly political throughout the Slav language area, and always have been - probably always will be. This is principally due to the principle that language=nation=right to your own country, which leads to much confused analysis. But the case of Slovene is unusual. There is self-evidently a sharp underlying division between Slovene and Serbian, Croatian, Bulgarian, Serbian etc., masked as this may be by loan-words and by the effects of Tito's project in Yugoslavia, but the natural-seeming re-classification of the language as West Slavic (Czech or Slovak speakers can get by quite comfortably in Slovene, whereas Croatian or Bulgarian or whatever is much more distant for them) lacks an overall justification in terms of historical explanation. The three Slovenian authors in the book that is reviewed in the link I have added have come up with an ingenious and rather convincing alternative theory - namely, that the Slovenes are survivors of the 'Veneti' recorded in Roman and arguably also Greek texts since fairly remote antiquity - and a key argument is that this accounts for the deep dialect divisions, a feature of languages which have been established in the same place for thousands of years (Welsh, say, or Chinese). The account given by the traditional analysis fails to account for this. There is more suggestive material, but there is no point me going into that here.

- I note that someone has simply removed my edits to the main page, without however giving any explanation or response to the points made above. Simply repeating that Slovenian is a South Slavic language when there are clearly questions to be answered about this classification seems wrong to me.

 * Please prove your statements by linguistic [jezikoslovni] sources und sign it so we'll know who you are. I think there is much evidence that Croatian (and Serbian) are much closer to Slovene than Czech or Slovak (concerning grammer, words, and so on). Please note that there are even intermediate dialects between Slovene and Croatian (in Western Croatia) called Kajkavian_dialect (hr:Kajkavski). -- PhJ 10:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Nearly all reputable scholarship on the Slavonic languages classifies Slovenian as a South Slavonic language. The only significant disagreement is whether it was always a South Slavonic language, or was first a West Slavonic language pulled into the southern dialect continuum after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia. Wikipedia does not rely on the personal investigations of its editors; all content much be sourced from published scholarship. Your entire discussion above violates WP:NOR and uses the Talk page as a general discussion forum. I'd ask you to remove it. CRCulver 17:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense: S. was first a West Slavonic language pulled into and mixed with the southern dialect after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia... I wasn't aware that I misused or violated etc. I removed my lay investigation.RH 19:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Common phrases
I think we should remove common phrases. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --Eleassar my talk 18:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

 * As there has been no opposition I've removed common phrases now. --Eleassar my talk 09:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Slovenian literature
On one occasion Count A. Auersperg (Anastasius Grün) entered the diet of Carniola carrying the whole corpus of Slovenian literature under his arm to provide evidence that the Slovenian language could in his view not be substituted for German as a medium of higher education
 * ... I'm assuming there is a point in stating this? TomorrowTime 09:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Palatalization in Slovenian
Is a consonant before j or i palatalized? The page Ljubljana gives, but the sound file sounds like , exactly the same as the corresponding Russian pronunciation. -Iopq 12:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There is misspelling in IPA pronunciation, correct is or.
 * This is not true. Ljubljana is pronounced as in terms of phonology at least (also note the vowel quality). Slovenian  before of front vowels is only slightly palatalized and there are minimal pairs like  `field, genitive singular' ( `field, genitive plural') and  `pole, genitive singular'. This clearly shows that there is no palatal lateral in Slovenian. Please, look at the available literature before making such claims. -Alpha1979 07:43, 29 September 2007 (CET)

Contradiction
The vowels section says that vowel length is non-contrastive and dependent on stress placement, whereas the Prosody section claims the exact opposite. I understand there may be some controversy on that point, but anyway citations would come in handy. Edricson 13:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Consonants
I have added sounds (lj) and  (nj) to consonant list. Question is about (ng)/(nk) sound (as in English bank, Latvian banka), as I'm Latvian I don't know is it represented in Slovenian. Slovenian phonetics is much like Latvian. I think that Slovenians could take from Latvian ļ and ņ characters to represent digraphs lj and nj, which fit more to Internet style not for handwriting. For example, Ļubļana (Ljubljana). Roberts7 11:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I would agree that this consonants appear, though the pronunciation of lj seems to be slightly different than lj in Croatian. Nj exists in words like Kranj, konj... someone would need to check a source for the correct IPA sounds, I am not really sure at the moment. But for the alphabet, we are perfectly fine with the present one and additional letters would just make a mess :-) --Tone 15:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I think all of the sounds (namely the, the and the ) ought to be deleted. The  and  are positional allophones of l and n, respectivelly. The  is merely a voiced variation of . I can't think of any examples of minimal pairs of these and I have never seen them described as separate phonemes in any source. When I saw them listed as phonemes I was shocked. The description on the top clearly says that there are 21 consonantal sounds in Slovene, but in the chart there are 24. How can one distinguish what are phonemes and what are allophones? Next to that, if allophones are to be added to the article (clearly noted as such, though!), the list is far from complete. You have posed a question about the . It is always written like an n, but only appears before velar consonants (k, g and h). It is not considered to be a separate phoneme. But if one wants allophones in the charts, one has to add them. The same goes for , appearing only before labio-dental consonants (simfonija). Somewhere on this page I also noted the dispute about  being a separate phoneme. We were taught in school that it indeed is one. My school education is also the main support for all of my arguments - the consonantal phonemes are, they said, p t k   f s  h b d g z   m n r l v j. As soon as I register I will delete these additions to the inventary. And about your proposals to change our alphabet - I don't like it. As I have stated, the sounds in question are not phonemes but rather consonant clusters. Next to that, it would be hard to make people write that way. And even more, if we ought to have new symbols for non-phonemes, why don't you Latvians use a special symbol for the ŋ in "banka"? :) Perhaps I seemed a bit harsh in this reply, so I would like to add it was not meant like that. Have a pleasant day! Aljoša Avani 01:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There, deleted the //, the // and the // for reasons stated above. If anyone disagrees, they are welcome to put it back, but please state your reason. A pleasant day! Aljoša Avani 01:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

 * According to Slovenski pravopis (last edition), // and // are present in Slovenian language. However, the book also states that is never used. So I am putting the first two back. Thank you for pointing out the error. --Tone 08:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

 * This is not true! Slovenski pravopis (SP) says that the nasal is only palatalized rather than palatal . However, the former is only a variant (of // in certain positions) and is mainly absent from contemporary standard Slovenian (it is a very marked dialectal feature). As regards, it is only a positional variant of , the same way as  is to . More accurately, as regards  and , the jury is still out, since they appear contrastively only in loanwords. Also, SP is not really a good source for phonology, try something more specialized. -Alpha1979 07:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

move --Lox (t,c) 09:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Slovenian language → Slovene language — All major dictionaries give preference to Slovene language. See. —Eleassar my talk 16:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * Support. --Eleassar my talk 16:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. "Slovenian" refers strictly to a national of Slovenia, not necessarily to the ethnic group or its attributes. (cf. Kazakh language, Slovak language). —   AjaxSmack   04:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. --Jalen (talk) 07:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Flagicons in the infobox
In order to prevent an edit war I am starting a section on here so we can discuss the merits of having flagicons in the infobox. I removed the flagicons added recently by User:XJamRastafire but was later reverted by him with no explanation of why they would be needed.

My rationale is the flagicons add nothing of encyclopedic value because the name of the country is next to the flag. They are merely being used as decoration therefore not being helpful to the reader, so they should be removed from the infobox. I'm kindly asking XJamRastafire to provide a rationale for why the flagicons belong in the infobox. I am also going to ask for a third opinion at the appropriate talk pages. --Eleassar my talk 13:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion on flagicons
I am responding to a request for a third opinion.

Because this issue is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, I recommend asking for input to resolve this on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages. — Athaenara ✉  14:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

 * My argument for change was that some language infoboxes contain flags (see for example Finnish language, Karelian language and for partly usage English language). I have informed Eleassar in his talk page for my changes and reverts. He had reverted this article and also made changes in Finnish and Karelian languages (flags were added by 84.251.73.218 and Flrn . Currently Czech, Danish, Faroese, Greek, Hebrew, Luxembourgish, Maltese, Norwegian, Romanian, Slovak, Swahili have flag(s) in infoboxes. Flags are in general 'always' merely decorations, so it is a question if they should be used anyhow. --xJaM (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Hm, I see that Eleassar had also removed flags from some other articles about languages: (last revision for English is this), Bengali, Chinese, Dutch, Estonian, Hindi, Hindustani, Icelandic, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Marathi, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Punjabi, Russian, Swedish, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu, Vietnamese. So, to repeat - my arguments for including flagicons into article for Slovene language were/are quite strong, since they were already widely used. Therefore I am kindly asking him to revert his recent actions until consensus is reached. Turkish language is also btw a featured article.
 * I'm reverting Eleassar's edits. If it's true that they add "add nothing of encyclopedic value" for the instances of language infoboxes, then it's true of all uses of flag icons.  We have a clear consensus that flag icons are appropriate. Moreover, there's nothing in WP:FLAG that says we shouldn't use flags in this context. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  18:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm glad I've managed to provoke at least some discussion about this. Anyway, I don't agree with your claim on "clear consensus". First, it seems this question has just never been discussed previously. Second, FLAGS exactly specifies when may the flagicons be used: 1) navigation in long lists or tables of countries, 2) in a table or infobox to save space and avoid repeating the country name; 3) articles about international sporting events. Which of these options is relevant here? In my opinion, none of them. --Eleassar my talk 16:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That WP:FLAGS exists shows that we have some sort of consensus that we can, in some instances, use flag icons (that's what I was referring to). I see the first sentence of FLAGS as detailing why it's appropriate in this case:
 * "'They can aid navigation in long lists or tables of countries as many readers can more quickly scan a series of flag icons due to the visual differences between flags. However, since not all readers can do this, the flags should be accompanied with country names.'"
 * Granted, some languages don't have long lists and the cutoff point between "long" and "not long" is perhaps subjective but the icons don't add confusion in any case and don't infringe on encyclopedic value. 19:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

 * If a consesus for using flag icons in language infoboxes will be reached, I guess this should be stated somewhere in WP:FLAG. Eleassar, there is a difference between making constructive contributions (or provoking to discuss certain issues) and acting on your own. Aeusoes1 had to revert your self-will revisions. Until we reach "clear consensus", please revert your revision also in this article. I don't know why do you almost always have to provoke or to be against something. --xJaM (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, some languages have long lists of countries and the icons may help. However, the majority of languages are spoken in one or at most a small number of countries and don't have long lists. In these cases, the icons are only decorative and distracting - not in line with MOSFLAG. By the way, is there a specific reason for them to be used only with the "official language in" parameter? (example) --Eleassar my talk 16:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * P.S. ad xJaM:
 * Don't forget it's an open question whether Aeusoes1 really had to revert anything. You should also know that I've posted a question about flagicons on several talk pages before doing anything; unfortunately, no one replied till I changed the articles as it seemed and for the most part still seems correct to me. So, there are two guidelines - WP:BOLD and WP:AGF - for you to read before accusing me of being nonconstructive. I'm also concerned about your last sentence. Such hasty generalizations about a contributor are uncivil  - I kindly recommend you to avoid them. On the other side, it's my right to oppose things I find ridiculous.
 * In any case, could you please comment on content, not on the contributor? Thanks for doing so. This talk page is meant to be used for discussion of the article on Slovene language, not on contributors and what they have done or not. --Eleassar my talk 13:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * How is it that the flag icons are helpful for, say Russian language but "decorative and distracting" for Slovene? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  18:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * That's what you say - your appealing to the first sentence of FLAGS (long lists) and then saying "some languages don't have long lists". I've removed them in both cases. --Eleassar my talk 19:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * No, that's what you say: "Yes, some languages have long lists of countries and the icons may help" but for languages with short lists, "the icons are only decorative and distracting".  How is this so? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  20:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * In my opinion, that's pretty obvious - with long lists many readers can more quickly scan a series of flag icons - if you need additional explanation, ask an expert in psychology which I'm not. If you disagree, I don't object to removing the icons from all language infoboxes. If you think they should stay in all of them - they're simply much more distracting than helping navigation with shorter lists - the discussion has stalled and we should ask for wider community input. --Eleassar my talk 06:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree with you that it's helpful for the long lists but I don't agree that it's "only decorative and distracting" for short lists. That's not obvious to me at all and you haven't really explained how this is so.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * They just draw too much attention to allow the user to read the text undisturbed while being redundant at the same time. In fact, it's up to you to show that they're not "only decorative and distracting". --Eleassar. my talk 08:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Neither redunancy nor "undisturbed" reading are not relevant issues as both are technically true for the long lists. The flags are just as helpful in the short lists as they are for the long lists.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * What? First, I don't understand your first sentence - could you rephrase it? Second, you have not proven your second sentence. According to WP:FLAGS, that's not true as it makes a difference between long and short lists. --Eleassar my talk 08:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You said "They just draw too much attention to allow the user to read the text undisturbed". This is an odd assertion as the text being read is two or three words.  If this is true of the short lists, it's also true of the long lists.
 * You said that the flags are redundant. Again, this is true of the long lists as well.
 * While I don't see where WP:FLAGS mentions small lists at all, I can revise my second sentence: The flags are just helpful in both the short lists and the long lists. i.e. they are not unhelpful in the short lists, even if they are more helpful in the long lists.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, implicitly supported by WP:FLAGS in "They can aid navigation in long lists or tables of countries", the benefit of easier navigation is larger than the cost of redundancy and distraction only for long lists. --Eleassar my talk 08:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree. Though I think other voices should chime in here.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  09:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you disagree with? Do you agree or disagree that WP:FLAGS implicitly supports my position? Otherwise, it would not say "long lists or tables of countries", but rather simply "lists or tables". --Eleassar my talk 09:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "they can aid navigation in long lists" does not mean "they can't aid in navigation in short lists." I also disagree with your other statement.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  10:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it implies that (or at least they're more distracting than helpful with short lists). Otherwise, why not simply "lists or tables" instead of "long lists or tables"? --Eleassar my talk 10:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

If this helps, flags do not represent countries only, for example, Russian is an official language of UN and IAEA as well as of some countries. IMO, flags look nice in the list and I don't find any paragraph in the MOS that would contradict the use in this case. --Tone 11:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * MoS says "they can aid navigation in long lists" implying that with short lists, they're more distracting than helpful. I still request the answer to my question: why not simply "lists or tables" instead of "long lists or tables"? I won't object to including flags to language infoboxes if that's what the majority prefers, but only if the MoS is updated first. --Eleassar my talk 11:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So it's only the word long that is problematic. Well, have a look at it this way: if a list is long, flags help navigation. If the list is short, the flags are there because they are on the long lists as well and we don't want to have two different standards. Would that make sense? --Tone 11:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll survive - although the vast majority of cases are spoken only in one or a small number of countries (e.g. Icelandic) and it's better without icons. Just make sure then all the languages are treated the same (I mean also e.g. German and other language that don't have them yet). You should also decide whether they're to be used only with the 'nation' (current standard) or also with the 'states' parameter and why so. --Eleassar my talk 11:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm, second thoughts... actually, the flags should be used at the countries, where the language has an official status (or at least regional). In this case, Slovenian, Austrian, Italian and Hungarian flag (maybe Croatian as well, I am not sure what is the present status of the minority, there have been some changes recently). But not for all the countries the language is spoken in. For example, USA flag doesn't really fit in Icelandic. --Tone 12:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * An open question is also, why do you, Eleassar, had to revert all those articles after you haven't got any replies. Normal practise would be to leave articles as they were (including this one about Slovene language), and then start any conversations - so that's why I've said you're acting self-willed - and please do not hide behind patronage of any kind and say that someone is uncivil. I know quite well how wikipedia works. I have reverted 3 articles and I left you a notice in your talk page, so do not say I didn't give any explanations. But obviously this is not enough. What do you want more? I am kindly asking you for the third time to revert your changes in this article. I also have a right to defend something I find is reasonable. If you're concerned about my sentences, I am concerned about your actions and contributions. My additions of flag icons to some language info boxes was also WP:AGF. I am discussing about the issue, but you've started accusing me that I haven't given any explanations at all. And as I've said, I believe that this issue is not problematic, since there was already a practice of including flagicons to info boxes. But the final solution, if any, should be given probably at WikiProject Languages. At least for the sake of the same treatment. --xJaM (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * XJamRastafire, I've discussed Eleassar's procedures with him on his talk page. If you'd like to add anything there, that's probably the better place to do it so this discussion doesn't get too cluttered.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  17:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've posted this before I've seen your discussion on his talk. No, for now I don't want to add nothing more. --xJaM (talk) 18:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that in this case, the flag icons add no navigational or encyclopedic value whatsoever. WP:FLAGS specifies that flag icons may be used in lists "provided that citizenship, nationality or jurisdiction is intimately tied to the topic at hand, such as comparison of global economic data or reporting of international sporting event results, and cannot be expressed better with text." That is certainly not the case here. I believe Eleassar's opinion in more in line with the intentions of WP:FLAGS. Kaldari (talk) 15:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this up. --Eleassar my talk 16:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I am also here responding to the link on WT:FLAG. I think the icons deserve to be ther e for several reasons: These ambiguities in the MOS are starting to waste valuable editing time in unnecessary arguments. Is anyone interested in voting on a few sample boundaries and fixing the new standard for a three-month temporary stint? :)--Thecurran (talk) 16:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC) In addition, linguistic boundaries are core definition of ethnic identity. That combined with a defined national boundary and a section on which countries legally operate in the language leaves "citizenship, nationality," and "jurisdiction" quite "intimately tied to the topic at hand", perhaps moreso than a sporting group that is allowed to hire foreigners. :)--Thecurran (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Slovakian and Slovenian themes can be confused with one another easily by outsiders, e.g., "Slovak" in Slovak is "slovenčina" & "Slovene" in Slovene is "slovenščina", a one-letter difference in a blend that non-Slavs find difficult, but their flags differ by a crucifix and a mountain, for one.
 * 2) Images can be easily turned off when they are distracting (Firefox: T ools Menu / O ptions... / Content Tab / Load i mages automatically checkbox; MSIE: T ools Menu / Internet Options... / Advanced Tab / Multimedia Settings / Show-pictures-ON checkbox)
 * 3) Flags help visually break up strings of text that defy conventional sentence formatting; they become necessary after around the fifth item.
 * Sure, I'll vote. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  17:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, I also think that mentioned usage for reporting sport event has less value than linguistic boundaries of which Thecurran is talking about. I also guess we might find some other examples for possible confusions, not just for Slovak and Slovene language. --xJaM (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I can understand this for the countries where this is a language of majority (like Slovene in Slovenia). But what about Hungary, Italy or even Serbia? Could someone please explain to me how can the Hungarian or Serbian flag be intimately linked to Slovene language (or vice versa)? In addition, if it's the confusion of names Slovenia and Slovakia that determines the use of flagicons, perhaps we should add a flagicon to all appearances of these two names.. Just kidding. --Eleassar my talk 17:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Look. As it is wriiten momentarily: Slovene - spoken in: Slovenia, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia and emigrant groups in various countries. If you look to geographical distribution there is quite well written that 5,000 speakers speak Slovene in 🇷🇸. So, here's intimate linkage to Slovene language in Serbia for instance. Of course, because there are a lot of Slovene Americans, which still speak Slovene, we should also add a flagicon for 🇺🇸. According to 2000 US Census 176,691 Americans were of Slovene origin, and if we assume 1/10 of them to speak Slovene, we have 17,000 speakers. --xJaM (talk) 17:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm very reluctant to force the lists to mention only where the "majority" of people speak the language. A place where 30% of the population speaks the language is still worthy of mention.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  20:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * !!!There is now a discussion on WT:FLAG, where anyone involved here is invited to state their opinions surrounding WP:FLAG with regard to this issue. :)--Thecurran (talk) 17:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Slovene language/Archive 1


text:
R-type asteroid

R-type asteroids are moderately bright, relatively uncommon inner-belt asteroids that are spectrally intermediate between the V and A-type asteroids. The spectrum shows distinct olivine and pyroxene features at 1 and 2 micrometres, with a possibility of plagioclase. Shortwards of 0.7 μm the spectrum is very reddish.

The IRAS mission has classified 4 Vesta, 246 Asporina, 349 Dembowska, 571 Dulcinea and 937 Bethgea as type R; however, the re-classification of Vesta, the V archetype, is debatable. Of these bodies, only 349 Dembowska is recognized as being type R when all wavelengths are taken into account.

List
As of February 2019, at least 5 asteroids have been classified as R-type:

title: R-type asteroid


text:
User:Johan Burati

Johan Burati is an active Linux user.

title: User:Johan Burati


text:
Topcoder

Topcoder (formerly TopCoder) is a crowdsourcing company with an open global community of designers, developers, data scientists, and competitive programmers. Topcoder pays community members for their work on the projects and sells community services to corporate, mid-size, and small-business clients. Topcoder also organizes the annual Topcoder Open tournament and a series of smaller regional events.

History
Topcoder was founded in 2001 by Jack Hughes, chairman and Founder of the Tallan company. The name was formerly spelt as "TopCoder" until 2013. Topcoder ran regular competitive programming challenges, known as Single Round Matches or "SRMs," where each SRM was a timed 1.5-hour algorithm competition and contestants would compete against each other to solve the same set of problems. The contestants were students from different secondary schools or universities. Cash prizes ranging from $5,000 to $10,000 per match were secured from corporate sponsors and awarded to tournament winners to generate interest from the student community.

As the community of designers, developers, data scientists, and competitive programmers involved in Topcoder grew, the company started to offer software development services to 3rd party clients, contracting individual community members to work on specific tasks. Most of the revenue, though, still came from consulting services provided to clients by Topcoder employees. From 2006 onwards, Topcoder held design competitions, thus offering design services to their clients. In 2006 Topcoder also started to organize Marathon Matches (MM) – one week long algorithmic contests.

In an attempt to optimize expenses, Topcoder introduced new competition tracks in 2007-2008 and delegated more work from its employees to the community. By 2009, the size of Topcoder's staff had been reduced to 16 project managers servicing 35 clients, while the community did most of the actual work via crowdsourcing. Topcoder representatives claim that at this point their community had about 170k registered members, and the company's annual revenue was approximately $19 million.

In 2013, Topcoder was acquired by Appirio, and the Topcoder community (of around 500 thousand at the time), was merged, under the Topcoder brand, with the 75k member crowdsourcing community Cloudspokes, created and managed by Appirio.

In 2016, Topcoder, along with Appirio, was acquired by Wipro as a part of a $500 million deal and continued to operate as a separate company under its brand.

Since the end of 2017, Topcoder has continued to offer its enterprise clients the Hybrid Crowd platform, as a way to protect intellectual property in crowdsourcing projects. In addition to the public Topcoder community, the Hybrid Crowd platform allows for the creation of certified and private crowdsourcing communities. Its certified communities include members of public Topcoder communities who are vetted for a customer's specific requirements, such as signing an additional NDA, completing a background check, or meeting any other particular certifications. The private communities may include an enterprise's employees and contractors. As the first user of Hybrid Crowd, Wipro integrated its internal (employee-only) crowdsourcing platform TopGear with Topcoder.

Topcoder community
Topcoder community is the primary source of the workforce behind all Topcoder projects. It is open and global: anybody, with a few legal restrictions dictated by US laws, and listed in Community Terms, can join and compete, without any financial commitment to Topcoder. Also, participation in challenges organized in the interests of commercial clients generally requires the community member to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Intellectual property for the winning submissions to commercial challenges is passed to the client, in exchange for monetary prizes paid to the winners.

While the majority of community members participate in Topcoder challenges as regular competitors, those who become recognized for their performance, and involvement in community life (via communication in Topcoder forums, attending Topcoder events, etc.), are offered additional roles in the community, which include: copilots (technical coordinators of challenges), problem writers, reviewers, etc. Since the end of 2014 till the end of 2017, a Community Advisory Board (CAB) was selected from active community members for a one-year term to help improve communications between Topcoder company and its community. In 2018 the CAB was replaced by the Topcoder MVP (Most Valuable Player) program.

There are four primary segments of each Topcoder community, open to every member: Design, Development, Data Science, and Competitive Programming. Also, since the end of 2017, Topcoder, as a part of their Hybrid Crowd offering, creates sub-communities dedicated to specific clients/projects. The sub-communities may require members to meet additional eligibility criteria before joining.

Design
Topcoder design community is focused on:

 * Information Architecture
 * Wireframes – With customer ideas, application and business requirements as input, competitors are challenged to create a black-and-white interactive user experience guide, able to showcase the logic and user-experience with the further application, without spending time on the exact look and feel.
 * Idea Generation – Competitors are asked to develop an idea proposed by the customer, with a written report or visual presentation as deliverables.
 * UI/UX/CX Design
 * Applications and Web Design – Competitors develop graphical designs for customer application or website; the deliverables are the actual design specifications (graphical images with associated measurements, font details, etc.) for software developers.
 * Design Concept – More informal design challenges, where participants should turn client idea into a design, which is not meant to be used for the actual development without further processing.
 * Icons design
 * Presentation Design – Infographics, print materials, PowerPoint presentations.

Two particular types of Topcoder design challenges are LUX (Live User Experience, 24 – 48 hours long) and RUX (Rapid User Experience, three days long). In both cases, more substantial prizes compared to regular design challenges with the similar goals, are offered in exchange for the shorter timeline. Short timelines allow Topcoder managers to demonstrate to customers how crowdsourcing works on real cases, during live, and few-days meetings with the clients.

Development
Software development segment of Topcoder community is focused on:

 * Bug Bash – Challenges concentrate on fixes of numerous small bugs in an existing software product.
 * Code – Generic software development challenges, typically with five day competition phase, and four more days for review, appeals and appeal responses. Usually, two prizes are offered, ~$600 - $1200 for the winner, and half of that for the second place.
 * First-to-Finish (F2F) – Rapid software development challenges with no fixed timeline for the competition phase. The first participant who submits a solution satisfying the specifications wins the only prize. In case of defects in a submission, that competitor is provided with review feedback as soon as possible, and allowed to submit again, with no penalty for the failed submission. Typically, such challenges have a small scope, compared to other challenge types.
 * Quality Assurance – Challenges focused on testing and search for bugs in the provided software products.
 * UI Prototype – Challenges focused on frontend development. Typically, they are reviewed by scorecards paying more attention to the exact match with provided visual design specifications, and include additional phases for final fixes, compared to the regular code challenges.

Data science
There are several types of data science challenges at Topcoder; typically, they are longer than software development challenges and focused on data science and algorithms, rather than on end-user software products:

 * Marathon Match (MM) – A week-long algorithmic contest, in which submissions are judged objectively by an automated scoring function that feeds a live leaderboard, and multiple submission from the same competitor is encouraged during the match with no penalty. Programming languages allowed in MMs are C++, Java, Python, C#.NET, VB.NET. Topcoder has organized Marathon Matches since 2006, and 100th MM was held in April 2018.  There are few similar types of challenges (Banner Match, Mini-Marathon Match), different by length and allowed programming languages.
 * Data Science First to Finish – Algorithmic contests scored by an automated scoring function, where the first competitor that reaches the specified score thresholds wins.
 * Data Science Sprint – A series of rapid data-science challenges, scored by a manual scoring function, and with no leaderboard.
 * Data Visualization – Subjectively-judged competition that asks to analyze data and propose the best way to visualize them, along with trends and/or peculiarities in data that should be highlighted. The output of such challenges serves as input into design competition that outputs the actual visualizations of the data.
 * Data Science Ideation – A challenge to discover new data/approaches/ideas for a problem with the help of a community.

Competitive programming
The Competitive Programming track of Topcoder community rotates around Single Round Matches (SRMs) – timed 1.5-hour competitions in which all participants compete online trying to solve the same set of problems as fast as possible. These were the first type of challenges at Topcoder.

Specialized sub-communities
The following table includes the list of Topcoder sub-communities dedicated to specific technologies and/or clients (within their Hybrid Crowd offering). See section for further information on these sub-communities.

Topcoder Open
Topcoder Open (TCO) is an annual design, software development, data science and competitive programming championship, organized by Topcoder, and hosted in different venues around the US. Each year, the most successful participants of each competition track included into TCO are selected and invited for a free one-week trip to on-site finals, where they compete for prizes, and also socialize with each other, helping to build community spirit among the most active members. In the first two years, 2001 and 2002, the tournament was titled TopCoder Invitational.

In addition to the main championship, from 2001 to 2007 Topcoder organized an annual TopCoder Collegiate Challenge tournament, for college students only. Also from 2007 to 2010, a TopCoder High School competition was held.

Since 2015, Topcoder Regional events have been held through the year in different countries.

ConsenSys
In 2017, Topcoder entered into a partnership with ConsenSys, an incubator of Ethereum projects, to promote the Topcoder Blockchain Community, and provide ConsenSys with design and development support for their blockchain projects.

Eli Lilly and Company
It was reported in 2008 that Eli Lilly and Co. would use Topcoder platform to crowdsource development of IT applications for its global drug discovery operations.

Harvard Medical School
In 2013, it was reported that researchers from Harvard Medical School, Harvard Business School, and London Business School successfully used Topcoder Community to solve complex biological problems. Researchers say that Topcoder competitors approached the biology-related big-data challenge, and managed to create a more accurate and 1000 times faster alternative of BLAST algorithm.

IARPA
Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity organization collaborates with Topcoder to create innovative algorithms for intelligence applications. From July 2017 to February 2018 it ran the Functional Map of the World challenge to develop deep learning algorithms capable of scanning and identifying in satellite imagery different classes of objects, such as airports, schools, oil wells, shipyards, or ports. In the ongoing Mercury challenge it aims to create AI methods for automated prediction of critical events, involving military action, non-violent civil unrest, and infectious diseases in Middle East.

IBM
Since 2016 IBM has been collaborating with Topcoder to promote their cloud platform, IBM Cloud, and IBM Watson services, in particular. Within this partnership, Topcoder has created a dedicated Cognitive sub-community and run numerous educational and customer-oriented challenges.

NASA
In 2010, NASA asked the Topcoder community to optimize the contents of medical kits for future human space exploration missions.

In 2013, NASA Tournament Lab cooperated with Topcoder to run data-science challenges targeting to improve computer vision algorithms for their Robonaut 2 humanoid robot;  in another challenge, Topcoder members were asked to develop algorithms for optimization of ISS solar arrays usage. Also in 2013 Topcoder helped NASA to develop a software solution for tracking food consumption by astronauts.

In another challenge, Topcoder community helped NASA and National Geographic's explorer Albert Lin to develop an algorithm to identify human-built structures in Genghis Khan's homeland.

In 2014, Asteroid Data Hunter, Asteroid Tracker, and many other challenges were carried on to develop better algorithms for asteroids detection in space images.

In 2015, the Topcoder Data Science community was challenged by NASA, Quakefinder, Harvard Crowd Innovation Lab, and Amazon Web Services, to come up with an algorithm that finds correlations between ultra-low frequency electromagnetic signals emanating from the earth, and subsequent moderate and large earthquakes.

In 2017, NASA, HeroX, and Topcoder announced a challenge to optimize their computational-intensive software solution for fluid dynamics, FUN3D,   which was cancelled later due to a high number of applicants (more than 1,800) during the registration, coupled with concerns about control over the public distribution of the software to optimize.

In 2018, a data science challenge is running currently to develop better algorithms for tracking of RFID-tagged items within the International Space Station.

Topcoder Veterans Community
At the end of 2017 Topcoder, together with Operation Code non-profit charity, announced the launch of Topcoder Veterans Community, that will focus on helping US military veterans to make their way into tech careers in software development via education programs and paid crowdsourcing challenges.

title: Topcoder