text:
Talk:Samuel R. Delany

Delany's name?
Should the name of this article be "Samuel R. Delany" instead of "Samuel Delany"? That is how the author is named on all his published work.

 * Seems fair enough, and consistent with other authors here. I say be bold and move it. Matthew Woodcraft

 * His nickname, by which he is generally addressed, is Chip. Apparently he chose it himself.
 * Nuttyskin 04:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I move that we rename the article to simply Chip. How's that for bold? ;) Luminifer (talk) 16:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Could someone also add a pronounciation guide as well? It would be a great help to non-native english speakers as myself, espescially since his name keeps being misspellled. I have no idea if it's Delaney or Delany or some other way entirely. Axel Löfving (talk) 16:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Still wondering. Is it DELLAH-nee or de-LAY-nee? The Sanity Inspector (talk) 14:01, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The latter. -- Orange Mike |  Talk  00:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I removed the phrase "though this is a sobriquet and not part of his actual name" from the first sentence of the body of the article; the article reads more smoothly without it. I'll add an IPA pronunciation of the name per Axel Löfving's request. Skald the Rhymer (talk) 17:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

extreme aspects of human sexuality
Does anyone else think the phrase "extreme aspects of human sexuality" is POV? --MJ

 * Not really. Do you know someone who doesn't think that's an accurate description of, say, 'The Mad Man'? Matthew Woodcraft

 * Right, but the way it's written it denotes that he's also written *autobiographical* work with "extreme aspects of human sexuality," which is a more troubling assertion. --MJ (sorry, I'll get an account etc set up soon!)

 * Uh, yeah. I wouldn't want to edit it myself, but "most of his work" seems an overstatement. Unless you consider gay or a gay/bi subtext to be "extreme", it really only applies to his self-described pornographic works: The Tides of Lust (aka Equinox), The Mad Man, and Hogg.

 * I am familiar with the contents of his works, an old friend of his, and married to one of his editors. I would say that "extreme aspects of human sexuality" is precisely and factually accurate. Applied to another body of work, it might be POV; but here the truth of the statement overwhems its subjectivity. Kathryn Cramer Pleasantville 23:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, it's something of a moot point, now. That phrase is long gone from the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kdring (talk • contribs) 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

 * Oooh! Bad boy! Sign your statements! I was actually coming back to add my sig, but the 'bot was faster.--Kdring 17:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"Moot" means debatable, not irrelevant.71.245.114.202 (talk) 04:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)Miles Archer

 * Oh, really?
 * moot (adjective):
 * 1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.
 * 2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
 * 3. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical.
 * moot (verb):
 * 4. to present or introduce (any point, subject, project, etc.) for discussion.
 * 5. to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purely theoretical or academic.
 * So, yes, while "moot" can be defined as debatable, it can also (as noted in examples 2, 3, and 5) mean something close to irrelevant, and that's the usage in my post above. But thanks for trying. Kdring (talk) 17:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

 * In the interest of relevance, his Neveryon books delve rather expressly into BDSM - a couple of significant story arcs revolve around slave risings, and a resultant folk-hero with sexual needs complicated by aspects of bondage, domination & submission, etc. I have no personal knowledge of Delany's own interests, but he found such matters worthy of consideration. 72.49.7.44 (talk) 00:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Biographical stuff
To be consistent with other wiki articles about writers, should the biographical material be a section "below the line," and perhaps filled out a bit, with a more general "who is SRD?" statement "above the line?" [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]

I strongly disagree with this statement. It is untrue, trivial, and misleading:

"Delany vaulted onto the literary stage when he was included in Harlan Ellison's Dangerous Visions. Harlan gave a short introduction that ironically pointed out how Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors. "

Dangerous Visions was published in 1967. Delany did not 'vault' onto any 'literary stage' at that point; he was a published science fiction author of six science fiction novels and one novella, all published by Ace. 'Literary stage' is misleading and hackneyed.

The stuff about the short introduction to him in Dangerous Visions is at best irrelevant. It's not an important milestone in his life or the science fiction field.

If I don't hear some comments for keeping it, I'd like to take it out.

ZviGilbert 20:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I fixed it and moved it under 'Other Facts' where it belongs. ZviGilbert 20:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Neveryon
Probably the Neveryon books should not be under "novels" in the bibliography - three of the four are collections of novellas and short stories. Does anyone have any strong objection to moving them? [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]

 * Well, nobody's said anything, so I'm going to go ahead. [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer] 2005Ap22 10:51PDST

Misspelled name
The pop-up text on the image has his first name misspelled "Sauel", but I don't know how to fix that. (Ironically, part of the article mentions his name being frequently misspelled!)

 * Thanks for pointing that out. Its fixed now.  -Seth Mahoney 04:02, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ellison quote
How to rephrase this? Given SRD's orientation, the quote "Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors" acquires an unintentional ambiguity. Tearlach 7 July 2005 01:50 (UTC)

 * I'd say just remove the wikilink to straight. The ambiguity isn't really that ambiguous, and its entirely fitting.  -Seth Mahoney July 7, 2005 04:00 (UTC)

 * And while you're at it, please remove the link to gay writers. Samuel R Delany is bisexual - not only behaviourally, but avowedly so.
 * Nuttyskin 04:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Huh? Delany is gay and has said so in print countless times. He is not bisexual.  Many gay men have had at least some sex with women. --SethTisue 20:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Samuel R. Delany is bisexual see his own words in his own writing in his memoir The Motion of Light in Water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.163.99 (talk) 21:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

 * The so-called Ellison quote is not in the intro to "Aye, and Gomorrah" in the edition put out by the SF Book Club. I've removed it, but if someone can prove that Ellison said Delany was straight in a revised version of the intro to a another printing of the book, I'll relent.  Sir Rhosis 03:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the context of the word? What precedes and follows the word? The way I read it, it can have two (one unintentional) meaning(s). Straight as a sexual reference or straight as in straight (up), unadulterated, incontrovertible, unequivocal, science fiction writer; or in another form straight-science-fiction-writer, no waffling, no ambiguity, definitely science fiction with no leakage of other genres into his writing. The following entry of the "Genre?" section of talk is a specific example:

–––– Actually, I said that he should NOT be genrefied - i.e. it should not list him specifically as a "science fiction author". He actually hasn't written [straight science fiction] in roughly 30 years. Luminifer (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ––––

Perhaps this appearant ambiguity can be explored further so it can be stated clearly.Quisizyx (talk) 07:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing work?
They Fly At Ciron is missing, but I'm only familiar with the 1996 reprint. Given the disparity in page lengths (171 vs 256) I'm uncertain of differences.

Repeated imagery
Should there be a discussion of the repeated imagery woven into Delany's works? Perhaps as a part of the Themes section? Some examples would be a character missing one shoe or biting his nails. Or the name of the city in both Dhalgren and Trouble on Triton being "Bellona."

Is this worth expanding upon? --Kdring 23:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Maybe a trivia section? or in Other facts, just because I don't know if such things would qualify as themes, but they could I suppose. Anyway, I'm for their inclusion. I always found such idiosyncrasies interesting. Jseipel 03:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Or perhaps major and minor themes? I do feel the current themes section is inadequate. Or at the very least it is stuck on but one of the many major themes that pervade his work. It really shouldn't focus only on sex. His work is about so much more than that.

 * I decided to just go ahead and do it. I made changes to the beginning and ending of the existing paragraph, took a chunk out of it to use as a closing paragraph, and added an opening paragraph that expanded on the other major themes in Delany's work.

nickname
Besides the "The Dartmouth" cite, Google returns over 100,000 hits for "samuel chip delany", most of which refer to the subject of this article. I'd move it back to the lead, but there was at least a little resistance to that. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * My only objection is to putting in the bolded name. I wouldn't object to moving the mention to the lead, though I'm not sure there is a great need for it there. I wanted to add The Dartmouth and the date of issue to the citation, but I'm not sure how those cite tags work. Are there fields for those things? IPSOS (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I guess I've heard and read enough of him as "Chip" that it's more than a nickname. Anyway, I've expanded the citation.  I need to go through and clean up some of the other refs as well.  Thanks for your help! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs)  03:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * And thanks for yours. I just looked at the diff expanding the reference so now I know how to do that at least. :-) (I'm not sure I like the cite tags as much as simply formatting it myself...) IPSOS (talk) 03:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it's a matter of what works for the page. The cite tags are very useful on pages like the Dhalgren article, where some works are cited repeatedly. For this page, another method is just fine. --Kdring 17:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't think it can be "more than a nickname" if it's not on his passport or license, no matter how many people use it. Hmmm, would it be more appropriate to cite ''The Motion of Light in Water" here? He actually discusses his nickname in the book. --Kdring 17:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Citing references
I've removed the "more sources" template from the article because I don't see anything that particularly needs a citation. If there are facts that you think ought to be referenced, please indicate them within the body of the text so I can supply a reference for them. Jd4v15 06:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Out of Print/Banished from Amazon??
I was startled to find (on a search on 28 aug 07) that Amazon lists just ONE title by Delaney, and B&N.com only ONE (a different one). None of the novels or critical works cited are listed for current purchase. Can it be true that all of this author's works are so out of print as not to merit listing? Or is something more nefarious going on?

 * It helps if you spell his name right. It's "Delany" not "Delaney". I get 12 currently in-print books for sale and several pages of used and out-of-print books. IPSOS (talk) 02:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

 * If you talk to Chip at conventions, though, you'll soon learn that he's had trouble for years keeping his books in print. He's not a "safe" writer like Robert Jordan or Misty Lackey (both nice people, but less edgy). -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  15:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Order
Shouldn't information about his work come before his biography? The main reason we are interested is his stories. Life.temp (talk) 23:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at Manual of Style (biographies), there doesn't seem to be an "official" order. But in my experience, bio-before-work is pretty common in biographical articles (William Shakespeare, Goethe, Stephen King...). Jd4v15 (talk) 01:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

 * What makes the most sense to the editors here? I vote for a profile of his writing before details of personal history. Life.temp (talk) 12:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

However it is ordered, shouldn't it be Life and Works rather than Biography/Themes? The word 'Themes' in particular seems to make too little of Delany as a writer. His work is so much more than a collection of thematic preoccupations.

While I share the dislike of criticism that makes the work secondary to the life, the following points could be made: 1] Life seems to precede Works in major author articles on Wikipedia. (though I'm sure there are exceptions) 2] Delany has (at times) made books out of his own life, both in writing memoirs and in explicitly introducing topics related to his times and experiences into his fiction. 3] Perhaps the introduction paragraph should emphasise his work in order to solve the problem identified by Life.temp? I'm not a regular editor at all, so please forgive me if these points aren't helpful.Millichip (talk) 12:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I think that as it's an entry about the person, a biography should come first. As to Themes vs. Works, that would only be appropriate if someone actually wrote a section on his works (which are also, of course, discussed in differing lengths on their individual pages). Right now, all there is is a discussion of the themes that run throughout his body of work, so the title is appropriate. It would be VERY nice if someone were to expand the article, though! Kdring (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

'Also Published As'
"also published as the substantially different, more definitive[4] Out of the Dead City" To my mind, if a book is published under a different title and substantially different content, it is a different book. So 'also published as' is not quite right. Also, the reference cited isn't much use - is Delany saying that Out of the Dead City is more 'definitive' a telling of the same story? As Out of the Dead City is a rewritten version pub.1968, the edition cited must be after this time. Should we just have an entry in 1968 for Out of the Dead City, perhaps with explanatory text? Clearly this needs to be in the bibliography, along with Delany's reasoning (if that is what is referred to by the citation). I just don't think we are doing it correctly at the moment. Millichip (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm... You have a point... let's wait for others to chime in.. but basically, in the intro to the omnibus edition (at least, the one that I own - Delany is notorious for changing things across many published versions...), he explains that there were two kinds of rewrites (as I recall). The first was largely stylistic - I own both books. Chapter 1 is almost completely different, but most of the book is very similar... Parts were also rewritten to mesh better with the second and third books in what was now a trilogy.. So functionally, it is the same book, but it is different and, according to Delany, the "definitive" edition (and the edition currently released as part of the trilogy that's in print right now). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luminifer (talk • contribs) 03:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Why such fast removal?
So a citation is needed on something that was added a few days ago. The request for a citation was made on the third of July, and the item was removed before the next business day? Why not give someone a chance to actually cite something?

Furthermore, did anyone notice that the IP address that was used to make the addition was from Boston University? Since that archival center is IN Boston University, it makes sense that someone there would know better than most.

Finally, just a bit of Google research turned up a page on the Archival Center site (part of the BU main site) that lists "Twentieth and Twenty-First Century individuals collected by the Center." Yes, on that list is one "Samuel R. Delany." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdring (talk • contribs) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this quick removal intrigued me, too. A little further into the library site, there is a page suggesting that the Delany holdings are being updated. I've just sent a request to the librarian to explain what this means.  Millichip (talk) 10:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I see this has been reinserted already, but here is what the library told me via email: "Yes, Samuel Delany's papers are housed at the Howard Gotlieb Archival Research Center at Boston University. The page with the collection's scope and his biography is currently being updated." Millichip (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I went ahead and reinserted it a short while after I started this section. I mean, really, what was the point in removing it so fast? I realized that I had actually found something to cite, so I just went ahead and got 'er done. Kdring (talk) 17:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem was that somebody went through Wikipedia and was putting almost identical language in a number of articles, even if the Gotlieb only had one or two documents rather than "papers" in any meaningful sense; so the whole shebang were reverted. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  20:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmmmm. I guess that makes sense. It would have been nice, though, to have an actual link to the reasoning instead of a cryptic reference. FWIW, the Delany holdings there are fairly extensive, with letters, manuscripts and all sorts of related papers. However, while I know this, personally, it's not something that I'm easily able to whip out a reference to. I'll see if it's mentioned in any of the many books about Delany. Kdring (talk) 00:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography on separate page?
I think that the bibliography might want to be its own page by now - it's pretty big, and there's a lot of textual stuff that can be added on the nature/history of various reprints... Anyone agree? Luminifer (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd wait. Unless you're ready to expand it right when you split it off. That'd make it worthwhile. Kdring (talk) 14:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Maestromedia link
Is that link really necessary? I know there's a video (one of eight) about Delany, but the site is about Fred Barney Taylor, not Delany, and I'm not sure it's all that important. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 19:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not necessary; per WP:NOT, the article need not and should not be a comprehensive bibliography about Delany. SparsityProblem (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know a great deal about WP conventions (or about Delany), so forgive me if this is gormless. I found the link quite an interesting insight into Delany's life at the beginning of his career. I guess the part of WP:NOT invoked is "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files", that is to say, the only reason the link can take up space on the crowded page is if it contributes to the understanding of the subject on its own terms. I must say, I think it does. I'm not sure what else 'necessary' means in this context. WP is not a paper encyclopaedia, but neither is it an indiscriminate collection of information. THe answer lies somehwere in the middle, and I would suggest keeping the link, perhaps tying it into the biographical material a little more. Millichip (talk) 22:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's a helpful link. Luminifer (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think if you look at the list of "External links" that's already on the page, you can see why the other link doesn't fit in that list. The links are to a comprehensive bibliography of him, an autobiography, and so on. There are plenty of media appearances and so on that mention him, but those aren't on the external links list. Why? Because the comprehensive bibliography that's already linked to is the place for those! SparsityProblem (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with SparsityProblem. SethTisue (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it, I can suggest this solution: If you think there's something really interesting in that video, why not add the information to his biography section, and link to the video as a reference?

Unsourced material
The following is unsourced information:

While this is interesting, we can't use it unless you provide a source. Also, none of this is really trivia, as trivia by its definition is "unimportant information" - it therefore shouldn't be in a trivia section but instead the information should be incorporated into the main article. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 03:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Among Delany's more unusual credits is that he wrote two issues of the comic book Wonder Woman in 1972, during a controversial period in the publication's history when the lead character abandoned her superpowers and became a secret agent. Delany scripted issues #202 and #203 of the series.
 * Delany was the April "calendar boy" in the 2007 Legends of the Village calendar put out by Village Care of New York.
 * Done. SparsityProblem (talk) 04:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 12:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wondering . . . is a source needed to prove that he wrote the novels listed on the page? If not, why would a comic book be any different? Does Alan Moore's bio need sourcing to show that he wrote Watchmen? What should actually happen is that the Wonder Woman stuff should be moved to the bibliography. Kdring (talk) 00:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Mass-market comic books (as opposed to graphic novels like Watchmen) do not always credit writers. I haven't seen this particular comic book myself, but I think a citation is appropriate given that. SparsityProblem (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh? Mass-market comic books have consistently credited writers for most of the past half-century! -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  12:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

 * The Comics Journal did a long interview with him---It has been rewritten and then incorporated in S. D.,Silent Interviews. It is on google books and he talks also about Wonder Woman. ---The Wonder Woman fansite wonderland-site.com shows the 2 numbers--Radh (talk) 17:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I have seen the comics, and he is credited. Given this, wouldn't whatever serial # is attached to the comics be a valid enough reference? Luminifer (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

National Identity
A recent edit changed his identity to African American. I would have thought that the national identity in the first para would be that which he has on his passport. Of course his identity as an African American may be (and in this case, of course, is) immensely important to the subject. But presumably style would suggest a neutral, value-free approach and a simple' American', with something about his African American identity high up in the article? I haven't changed because I'm no expert on these matters in Wiki, but if no-one objects I will. Millichip (talk) 10:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The fact that people seem to committed to omitting the fact that he's African-American is very telling. It's important enough to people to point out that the first sentence in the lede usually refers to nationality, which is an excellent way to safeguard unexamined racist ideology and camouflage it behind rules. But the fact that nobody thinks it's significant at all to point out his groundbreaking status as specifically African-American writer any where in the article speaks volumes about science fiction fans and Wikipedia editors in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.105.247.189 (talk) 16:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * His origins as a Delany of Harlem are right there in the article. He is not characterized as "an African-American SF writer" because in his early years, few people knew or cared, and nowadays he is simply considered a stellar, pioneering SF writer who happens to be African-American. The fact that you make such assumptions about science fiction fans and Wikipedia editors in general speaks volumes about your ignorance of both communities. I am proud to be a member of both, to be open in my identity, and to have called Chip a friend for almost forty years. I yield to no-one in my admiration for the brilliance of his work, and I have given up in despair at the challenge of translating his jewel-like prose. -- Orange Mike |  Talk  17:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Genre?
The initial paragraph of the article mentions that Delany is a Science Fiction author. I don't know if that's true, any more. Yes, he wrote a great deal of SF, but he is also a critic and has written quite a lot of non-SF fiction. Should he just be an "American writer"? Kdring (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * SF is still his favorite genre, and the one for which he has achieved his greatest fame and acclaim. The other stuff can go in there too, but he's still the same guy you see at science fiction conventions all the time. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  18:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that he should not be genrefied and pigeonholed. It should encompass all of his material, not just one segment of it. Feel free to change it. Luminifer (talk) 20:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I already did. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  20:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I said that he should NOT be genrefied - i.e. it should not list him specifically as a "science fiction author". He actually hasn't written straight science fiction in roughly 30 years. Luminifer (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're ignoring They Fly at Ciron; Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand; and the as-yet-unfinished The Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities? Delany still considers himself an SF writer; that's not a diminishment of him, in his eyes or in the eyes of his readers. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  12:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * True; I would not count Ciron as he really wrote most of that a long time ago, but Stars does count. The classifier is not a diminishment but is limiting in how useful its descriptiveness is. Imagine if someone comes to the article looking for the famous critical writer regarding gay issues in inner cities - they might see "is a science fiction writer" and (wrongly and hastily) think "ah, this can't be the man". Science fiction should be mentioned, but it is not all that he writes - and in fact is not even all of the fiction that he writes. It should be listed, but along with other a broader definition including all of the fiction that he writes. The problem with 'science fiction author' is not that it is a diminishment, it is that it is very incomplete.Luminifer (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Mike, I would argue that of the more than 20 books he's had published in the time mentioned (the last 30 years), only two of them have been science fiction. Less than 10% of his output. He's published at least as much porn in that span, twice as many books of fantasy, and probably more non-fiction than fiction. Kdring (talk) 01:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would add that I think, even going back to the beginning of his output, less than half of it is science fiction. If you include criticism about science fiction, maybe then it would go over 50%, but I'm not sure. Luminifer (talk) 05:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Chip did not stop being a science fiction writer and science fiction critic when he started getting university teaching gigs. He remains, for example, a contributing editor to The New York Review of Science Fiction. He has not in any way tried to distance himself from science fiction although he has actively engaged himself in a number of other communities. --Pleasantville (talk) 12:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer
 * No, but identifying him as a "science fiction author" would be similar to listing Avery Brooks or Patrick Stewart as a "science fiction actor" - it does not represent nearly the entirety of their work, and is a misleading description for the reasons discussed above. He is an author who sometimes writes science fiction, who sometimes writes about science fiction, and thinks very highly of the genre. Luminifer (talk) 15:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1-If he is still writing or not is irrelevant, he wrote SF and it is still in print; he's a SF writer. 2- I've never heard anyone called a science fiction actor. 3- And actually, I think New Wave Science Fiction Author would be more accurate. Nitpyck (talk) 02:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Calling someone a "science fiction author" even though less than 50% of their work (however you measure it) is science fiction seems to be misleading. I think the current text is fine. Luminifer (talk) 04:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Which Delany SF novel featured Invisble Theater?
There's a neat little Invisible Theater[ article, which claims it to be a very recent phenomenon. I recall that Chip Delany had a troupe of folks doing this (street theater that just ppopped up) in one of his great mainstream SF novels, but which one? Thx in advance. Bellagio99 (talk) 14:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to Triton? Aisha9152 (talk) 19:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I think so. Do you remember the name of the theater group and main characters? Young, feisty boy and girl, I dimly recall. I'll add to Invisible Theater. Or you can. WP:OWN Bellagio99 (talk) 13:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * the leader of the 'micro-theater' was a woman named "The Spike". the main character of triton was "Bron". i looked through the book but could not find a lot that was relevant for you but i think it is the book you are thinking of Aisha9152 (talk) 16:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Thanks, that's fine and enuf. Bellagio99 (talk) 19:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit War
I have had my edits undone a total of four times by different folks. Today they rolled them back twice immediately after I restored AND edited my material regarding Delany's endorsement of NAMBLA that cannot be linked to directly do to the NAMBLA URL being blacklisted by Wikipedia. I did however find an additional endorsement that is in a published interview. If I find this undone, I can only be left to suspect an intentional effort to suppress the truth of his public statements.

Here is the text in question:
 * [This note, two horizontal lines, and one wikilink inserted by User:p64]

On June 25th 1994, Delany endorsed "The NAMBLA Bulletin" in the following quote to "Queer Desire's Forum" in New York City:

"I read The NAMBLA Bulletin fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I've ever found. ... Before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about, the issues they are really talking about; and deal with what's really there rather than this demonized notion of guys running about trying to screw little boys. I would have been so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.".

His endorsement as of this edit, is prominently posted on NAMBLA's subscription page for their periodical. A direct link for reference citation to the quoted endorsement above is blacklisted by Wikipedia and is partially included in text for this reason: nambla.org/delaney.html.In a 2004 interview about his novel Hogg he stated he supported a group like NAMBLA.[11]

To circumvent the blacklisting, I used a partial url in text. The individual STILL undid the entire section without warning. How about at least sending me a message and if I do not respond within 24 hours, feel free to edit away, but you had better be justified. The fact that Delany has endorsed NAMBLA publicly does not make it vandalism to cite it. It is relevant considering the body of all his works. Please leave my edits in place. if you do not have justification to rightly undo them as some have done.

The correctly cited and truthful statements I edited are not defamation, slander, or vandalism. They are the truth. Please note that I left out any hint of opinion and only cited quotes directly from Delaney himself, who actively supports his narrative regarding NAMBLA. MelvinPS (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.67.179 (talk) 22:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Above I added two horizontal lines to demarcate "the text in question" --namely, the latest insertion by User:76... at the time of first report here (differences between versions), as section 1 paragraphs 4-6, as rendered by a browser. I also added one wikilink which reproduces the only markup in the three paragraphs, except the reference (as rendered: Delany, Samuel R.; Freedman, Carl (2009). Conversations with Samuel R. Delany. Univ. Press of Mississippi. p. 143. ISBN 978-1-60473-278-8.)
 * This was the fourth and last versions provided 2013-08-02 User:76... ; identical to the version provided/restored 2013-08-03 User:MelvinPS (+1252 bytes), which is current ; quite different from the first three versions (+849 to 1033 bytes).

 * These three paragraphs do not exhaust any of the five revisions (+849 to 1252 bytes). In particular, every one included the destructive insertion of  (5 bytes) in the lead sentence. --which User:Lfdder has now fixed with no other change (-5 bytes).
 * --P64 (talk) 20:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit undone thrice now. Received one response.
My edit was undone three times today [2013-08-02 -p64] by three different people. No worries if the claims are legit. I will even accept the trivial claims of the first two, although very weak, but the last did not even leave a reason for edit. incidentally, as fast as I posted the revisions to comply, they were undone by different users each time. Consider that my original edit stood for months without being challenged. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck,....just sayin'....You want the truth? Well it seems some can't handle it and choose to use trivial tactics to suppress it. Stand up and debate this like an honorable person! Don't hide behind trivial issues. One of you actually informed me to hash it out here AFTER I had already made my case here. I get confused too, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and am willing to resolve this issue here and now. Relevant truth matters folks. Don't ever forget it or willfully ignore it. Stand up and be counted, but for God's sake stand up and be truthful.MelvinPS (talk) 00:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I relegated this to a subsection of "Edit War". On point:
 * Combining many things in one revision is generally good. After one reversion for cause, however, split it up.
 * --what's that about? (that has been fixed)
 * capitalized --why? (that persists)
 * I don't know anything about wikipedia blacklist policy, nor practice except how our organization article NAMBLA handles this, ref #9.
 * The three paragraphs in question need work. No self-reference narrow ("this edit") or broad ("blacklisted by Wikipedia") is permissible. The matter of those two sentences belongs in a Note, at best. The first and third inserted paragraphs need to be rewritten anyway.
 * P.S. The next paragraph "Delany has identified ..." needs relocation to follow the divorce --move up four paragraphs. --P64 (talk) 20:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how or why Delany's POV on NAMBLA is relevant, since no secondary source is cited connecting either his opinion of the organization or of its cause to the body of work which makes him notable. It strikes me as sensationalizing and undue weight. I object to its inclusion until and unless it has been demonstrated here that there is a consensus for inclusion based on relevance, especially since I see that others have also repeatedly objected and removed the material. PlayCuz (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree that by undue weight the quote should not be included. SethTisue (talk) 01:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I think the quotation, "I would have been so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13." supported by a little explanation belongs with what we say about identification since adolescence. All the sexuality and cohabituation is now out of sequence and already over-emphasized currently, within the "Life" section as it stands. See my observations in the next section. ---P64 (talk) 02:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 'I don't see how or why Delany's POV on NAMBLA is relevant." Really? Really? It speaks volumes about his worldview. Its omission is sanitization, pure and simple. 192.12.184.6 (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

There's an interview with him here:

http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-conversation-with-samuel-r-delany.html

In which he explains his views on NAMBLA at some length. Certainly I think it should be included, but I don't want to jump into an edit war. Baron ridiculous (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

How can an article which makes such wide mention of the author's ideas of sexuality in his writing *not* find his POV on NAMBLA as relevant?

An author's world view is fundamentally tied to their work. How they present ideas, oppose them, and even challenge their own, is permeated by that world view. Thus, what Delany thinks about the concept of adult-adolescent/adult-child sexual relations is an integral factor in his thinking while writing, and their presentation on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.52.212 (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Life and career
Section 1 is a disaster at from mid-paragraph 2, following "married five years later in August 1961", through that paragraph and the next two --o'erspanning the point where his later discussion of NAMBLA has been inserted and reverted in ; and all devoted to his sexual orientation, and his relationships down to the present day-- to the middle of the next paragraph where we are back to "dropping out of the City College of New York after one semester."

When did he attend CCNY for a single semester? Fall 1960 may be the term following his high school graduation.

"Upon the death of Delany's father from lung cancer in October and his marriage in August" [1961, we say above]. --nothing can happen "upon" two events that are ten months apart.

To depart from a chronological account is perilous. --P64 (talk) 00:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I moved the 1991-to-"current" paragraph to end section 1, the only chronological disorder easy to fix without more information.
 * I moved coverage of his name's frequent mis-spelling to a Note on the section 1 lead.
 * I rewrote coverage of the nickname "Chip" (previously a long quotation within one Reference) as text that fits with another boyhood line in a new paragraph, at Chip's place in his life.
 * I rescued from the Internet Archive one source previously used only to support the words nicknamed "Chip", a silly use given what we have for that. It looks like a source that should be used seriously so here it is, refashioned.

[ref name=agapakis> Covering that week's address by Delany to a Dartmouth audience, "Queer Thoughts and the Politics of Sex".
 * --P64 (talk) 19:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Mea Culpa
That category was for some reason marked red when I removed it so I thought it was a nonexistant category and wasn't aiming at vandalism. Anyway, why sholdn't Hogg be listed among his most notable works? 109.186.234.86 (talk) 18:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The category I restored was American SF writers; you are correct, that there is no category African-American SF writers. Hogg is not a notable work, indeed it is one of his most obscure works, a minor footnote at most and (deservedly, in my opinion) out of print for most of his career. Your persistence in putting it back into the article in a prominent position seems to me to fall somewhere between mere vandalism and "pointy" editing in violation of WP:BLP and the expectation of a neutral point-of-view. (Full disclosure: I know Chip and he knows me; we've corresponded [on an unrelated matter] within the past month.) -- Orange Mike |  Talk  18:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've read this novel and highly appreciated it so I thought I could spread the word to others by inserting it into the notable works category... Reading the Wikipedia article dealing with it, it does seem to have gathered a lot of critical praise. Do with it whatever you wish. I hope you understand that I wasn't under any circumstance attempting to vandalize the article by removing that category. It was a pure mistake. 109.186.234.86 (talk) 18:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We're agreed that you meant well with the category bit; don't sweat it. As to Hogg: "highly appreciated it so I thought I could spread the word to others" is the opposite of what we do here, since it involves personal judgement and original research. We don't make judgments as to "noteworthy"; only as to "notable". The evidence is that Hogg, while notorious in some circles, is not really deemed a notable work compared to a Babel-17 or "Time Considered as a Helix..." Note also that some of the critical remarks quoted in the article on Hogg fall more in the area of critical defense rather than praise. -- Orange Mike |  Talk  13:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Retirement
I keep trying to add Delany's retirement at the end of the 2015 academic year and it continues to be reverted for reasons mysterious to me, but I may be violating a Wikipedia code/guideline/rule that I'm not familiar with. Nonetheless, it is a fact that Delany retired at the end of this academic year from Temple, and he had not been coordinator of the graduate writing program for at least a year, so the implication that he still teaches at Temple and that he has been chair/coordinator for that entire time is inaccurate. I don't care enough to keep revising and undoing my attempt to make the entry more accurate, but thought it was worth noting here in case someone else has a better approach and can have more success. Metalepsis (talk) 14:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Metalepsis
 * I keep trying to tell you Facebook is NOT a reliable source, since the contents are provided by the sites users. logs are not reliable sources (excerpt for the opinions of the bloggers), Wikipedia is not a reliable source, IMDB is (for most things) not a reliable source, all becauise the content comes from the users and is therefore not reliable. Please read WP:RS, and understand what sources are allowed to be used. BMK (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's NOT FROM FACEBOOK. Try READING before undoing. Seriously. Yes, the FIRST retirement announcement link was from Facebook. But all subsequent things you've undone had a link to an announcement from Temple University. You're just blindly undoing without checking the link first. Stop it. Kdring (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF. I did read the Temple University announcement, which established that Temple University believed that he intended to retire, and that they intended to have a party, but doesn't actually show that he retired or give any information about it.  It does not establish the fact that he retired.  Please find a citation from a reliable source for that.  An article in a school newspaper, perhaps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyond My Ken (talk • contribs) 14:17, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * His latest book, 'a,b,c: three novels' mentions his retirement. Can you please just cite that it needs a reference until I can do it properly? PLEASE? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdring (talk • contribs) 21:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't see your last comment until after you had done the cite, but I would have done what you asked anyway, since it was a reasonable request. I'm glad to see you find something usable. BMK (talk) 23:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Request
Could someone fix the citation for Balled of Beta-2. It was a Nebula Award nominee in 1965 in the novella category, the first year the Nebulas were given out. I messed up the citation in the edits. If someone could fix it I would appreciate it. It's cited among the nominees in the first Nebula Awards volume. (SRD.)    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.81.184 (talk) 21:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. "Ballad of Beta-2" has a link to the Wikipedia article, and the partial edit you made was to "Empire Star". Can you clarify? BMK (talk) 01:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I notice his support for NAMBLA has been scrubbed
I notice his support for NAMBLA has been scrubbed. I think that warrants a POV tag warning. What do others think? Edgespath24 (talk) 05:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

 * I've removed the passage about NAMBLA from the early life section. Its only cited source was an interview published on blogspot, which is a clear violation of the policy on self-published sources in BLP articles as I read it. With a better source, it could be reinstated. — Rutebega ( talk ) 05:21, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

come on, NAMBLA itself cites him on their own website as a supporter of their bulletin in the 1990s how hard is it to keep a literal fact where it belongs Wikidude10000 (talk) 04:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Then find a reliable source, if it's not that hard. The replacement source you provided was an archive of a Medium article, which is user-contributed content. Anybody can write for Medium by paying them $5/mo. This is a biography of a living person. Strong sources are required for controversial content. Skyerise (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is not by some mundane rando or some Delany-basher. It was a long, thoughtful interview by Cory Doctorow, a critic with a solid reputation in the science fiction community. -- Orange Mike |  Talk  22:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, the interview was by Will Shetterly. An archived interview. Go to the original URL and you get "The author deleted this Medium story." Did he think better of it? Or was he or Medium made to remove it? There's another article out there... same article but in several different places with several different by-lines. If you go down the rabbit-hole, you'll see that every single source quotes the NAMBLA site (which we don't find reliable). How can we tell that? The NAMBLA site quote has "[Bulletin]" inserted into it. Take that out, and you'll find only two mentions, who clearly just took the time to edit the insertion out. The whole issue is very dubious. I've not found a source with an independent publisher, everything about it everywhere is self-published. This is exactly why WP:BLP requires strong sources. We don't know if it's true or if it's some kind of campaign.... kinda looks like a duck to me though. Skyerise (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the 2009 book Conversations with Samuel R. Delany (editor Carl Freedman, publisher University Press of Mississippi) includes a 2004 interview with Delany in which he briefly mentions his support for NAMBLA (the relevant passage is on page 143): "It may seem paradoxical from my statement that generally speaking I think sexual relations between children and adults are likely to go wrong and that most of them are likely to be, start off as, or quickly become, abusive, that I also support a group like NAMBLA—which I do. But that’s because I feel one of the largest factors in the abuse is fostered by the secrecy itself and lack of social policing of the relationships." However, as this is simply a mention in passing, and the interview itself doesn't appear to have prompted much discussion, I'm not sure there's any way for this information to be added to the article without running afoul of original research guidelines. DorVS (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

 * That would be sufficient for a mention I believe, once I have access to a copy I'll include it. XeCyranium (talk) 00:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Usage "experiments in polyamory, and extramarital affairs ... with men and women conducted by both parties"
We currently have "Their marriage (which alternatively encompassed periods of cohabitation and separation, experiments in polyamory, and extramarital affairs with men and women conducted by both parties) ...". ''I am a straight, married, monogamous (without exception since marriage), heterosexual, and if that's still too vague for you (bcz I don't mind you considering it your business, if that's your kink or professional role) devoid of each of post-adolescent, and penetrative, homosexual experience. (So to speak, a straight supporter of gay liberation and of inter-orientation sociality and alliance.) Not that you should care, but of course YMMV.  My concern is with, I think, the overly clinical and/or legalistic wording that for me (at least) suggests an excess of moralism toward, or an intolerant clinicalization of, an often under-empowered and isolated human category. (I don't deny that "minority" is ever a valid analytical concept; it is an overused and thereby an abusively wielded one. If you regard it as an importantly relevant one here, please say so, and explain.)''  First, perhaps "party" is a clear-cut term in law (for those constituting a group without relevantly conflicting interests in the legal action at hand). If there was a relevant legal dispute at hand, it should have been identified; if not, something along the lines of "each" or "between them" is obligatory, bcz calling the couple "parties" is dehumanizing, and insinuates misconduct by one or both. The insinuator should be at least anonymously admonished by admins, on behalf of the community of editors, whether or not we undertake identifying, or perhaps even publicly naming, them. I probably need say no more, tho I shall reword, at least to the extent I have just advocated. --JerzyA (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

 * I've removed the entire offending paragraph as being unsourced (it had two references, one to another WP article and the other did not mention the article subject). If you want to rewrite it I would suggest looking for sources first. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 08:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concurrence & appropriate action. (But in find myself far better at "dropping a flag on such "plays" than being evenhanded in rewriting: "it's easier to state a problem than a solution", and for me lots harder to do the fix well and courteously, even when momentarily back in ... uh, "fighting trim". --JerzyA (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No worries, and I follow what you mean. Glad to hear that you're in good form at present. Wham2001 (talk) 13:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Samuel R. Delany


text:
Suk

Suk or SUK may refer to:

Places

 * Suk, Iran, a village in Bushehr Province
 * Suk Qazqan, a village in Markazi Province, Iran
 * Seh Suk, a village in Lorestan Province, Iran
 * Suk Samran District, a district of Ranong Province, Thailand
 * Santi Suk, Chiang Mai, a subdistrict of Doi Lo District, Thailand
 * Santi Suk, Chiang Rai, a subdistrict of Phan District, Thailand

Acronyms

 * The ISO 639 language code for the Sukuma language
 * The IATA airport code for the Sakkyryr Airport
 * The ICAO airline code for the Superior Aviation Services of Kenya

Other

 * Suk (name), a surname and given name
 * Josef Suk (composer) (1874–1935), Czech composer and violinist
 * Suk Chamber Orchestra, named after composer
 * Josef Suk (violinist) (1929–2011), the composer's grandson, Czech violinist and conductor
 * Suk Trio, a Czech piano trio founded in 1951
 * Suk School, a fictional medical school in Frank Herbert's Dune universe
 * Suk tribe, Kenya

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Suk


text: User talk:81.138.53.73

title: User talk:81.138.53.73


text: Talk:Players Handbook

title: Talk:Players Handbook


text:
Mountain Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic

The Mountain Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (Горская Автономная Советская Социалистическая Республика; Лаьмнийн Автономин Советийн Социалистийн Республика) or Mountain ASSR (Го́рская АССР) was a short-lived autonomous republic within the Russian SFSR in the Northern Caucasus that existed from 20 January 1921, to 7 July 1924. The Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus was created from parts of the Kuban and Terek Oblasts by the indigenous nationalities after the Russian Revolution; however, Soviet rule was installed on this territory after the Red Army conquered the Northern Caucasus in the course of the Russian Civil War, and the former republic was transformed into a Soviet one. The area of the republic was over 73000 km2, and the population was about 800,000. It comprised six okrugs: Balkar, Chechen, Kabardian, Karachay, Nazran (Ingushetia), and Vladikavkaz Okrug (Ossetia) and had two cities: Grozny and Vladikavkaz. In addition, a special autonomy was provided to the Terek Cossacks: Sunzha Cossack Okrug, which included a large enclave in northern Ingushetia, and a smaller one bordering Grozny. Its boundaries approximated those of classical Zyx.

The ASSR did not exist in its original state very long. Already on 1 September 1921, Kabardin Okrug was split from the ASSR as separate Kabardin Autonomous Oblast, subordinated directly to the RSFSR. Next came Karachay Okrug, which was transformed into Karachay-Cherkess Autonomous Oblast on 12 January 1922; Balkar Okrug, which was merged with Kabardin AO into Kabardino-Balkarian Autonomous Oblast on 16 January 1922; and Chechen Okrug, which was transformed into the Chechen Autonomous Oblast on 30 November 1922.

By the Decree of the Supreme Soviet of 7 July 1924, the remaining territory of the ASSR was partitioned into the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and the Ingush Autonomous Oblast. The Sunzha Cossack Okrug and the city of Vladikavkaz were directly subordinated to the VTsIK until 17 October 1924, when North Caucasus Krai was formed and integrated all of the former ASSR in addition to those two units.

In the 19th century, the best land in the region was given to Cossacks, Russian and Ukrainian military colonizers, while many natives were driven to the mountains. In 1920, the Soviet government decided to deport the Terek Cossacks and give their farms to the natives. A total of 34,637 individuals were deported to Vladikavkaz, Arkhangelsk and Donbas. Hundreds of families were later found to be supporters of the Soviet government. In January 1921, the forced resettlement of the Cossacks was stopped, and some families returned to occupy abandoned farms, but the densely-populated line of Tsarist-era military settlements was erased from the North Caucasus forever and the natives were free to occupy the fertile lands on the valley floors. In 1882, 24.7% of the Ingush lived in the mountains, but by 1924 only 2.1% did.

During the Cold War, many Western historians saw the disintegration of the Mountaineer Republic as a divide-and-conquer strategy by the Soviet government to keep the peoples of the Caucasus weak and subjugated to Moscow. The Soviet archives that became public in the 1990s have shown this not to be the case. The disintegration of the republic started in March 1921, just two months after its creation, when the leaders of Kabarda expressed their discontent at having been made part of the republic and cited the absence of economic links between the Kabards and other Mountaineer peoples. From April to June 1921, Kabarda held a congress at which 140 delegates, only 28 of the Bolsheviks, had overwhelmingly voted not just to become an autonomous oblast, but to also demand autonomous republic status. Joseph Stalin had to talk the leader of the Kabards, Betal Kalmykov, out of applying for a full union republic status.


text:
Thornton

Thornton may refer to:

People

 * Thornton (surname), people with the surname Thornton
 * Justice Thornton (disambiguation), judges named "Thornton"
 * Thornton Wilder, American playwright

Australia

 * Thornton, New South Wales
 * Thornton, Queensland, a locality in the Lockyer Valley Region
 * Thornton, South Australia, a former town
 * Thornton, Victoria

Canada

 * Thornton, Ontario

New Zealand

 * Thornton, Bay of Plenty, settlement in the Bay of Plenty
 * Thornton, Waikato, suburb of Hamilton
 * Thornton Bay, settlement on the Coromandel Peninsula

South Africa

 * Thornton, Cape Town

United Kingdom

 * Thornton, Angus, a location
 * Thornton, Buckinghamshire
 * Thornton, East Riding of Yorkshire
 * Thornton, Fife
 * Thornton, Lancashire
 * Thornton, Leicestershire
 * Thornton, Lincolnshire
 * Thornton, Merseyside
 * Thornton, Northumberland, a location
 * Thornton, Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton, Pembrokeshire
 * Thornton, West Yorkshire
 * Thornton Abbey, Lincolnshire
 * Thornton Curtis, Lincolnshire
 * Thornton Heath, London
 * Thornton Hough, Merseyside
 * Thornton in Craven, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton in Lonsdale, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton-le-Beans, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton-le-Clay, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton-le-Dale, North Yorkshire (also simply Thornton Dale)
 * Thornton le Moor, Lincolnshire
 * Thornton-le-Moor, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton-le-Moors, Cheshire
 * Thornton-le-Street, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton Rust, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton Steward, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton Watlass, North Yorkshire
 * Thornton (ward), an electoral ward of the Lambeth London Borough Council

United States

 * Thornton Creek, a stream in Seattle, Washington, USA

Communities

 * Thornton, Arkansas
 * Thornton, California
 * Thornton, Colorado
 * Thornton, Idaho
 * Thornton, Illinois
 * Thornton, Iowa
 * Thornton, Kentucky
 * Thornton, Mississippi
 * Thornton, New Hampshire
 * Thornton, Pennsylvania
 * Thornton, Rhode Island
 * Thornton, Texas
 * Thornton Township, Cook County, Illinois
 * Thornton Township, Buffalo County, Nebraska
 * Thornton, Wisconsin

Companies and organizations

 * Thorntons Inc., a U.S. gasoline and convenience store chain
 * Thorntons Ltd., a UK chocolate brand
 * Thornton's Bookshop (aka Thornton's) a university bookshop in Oxford, England
 * Thornton Academy, a private 6-12 school in Saco, Maine, USA

Other uses

 * USS Thornton, several United States Navy ships

title: Thornton


text:
Kyiv Pechersk Lavra

Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra or Kyievo-Pecherska Lavra (Києво-Печерська лавра; Киево-Печерская лавра, Kievo-Pecherskaya Lavra), also known as the Kyiv Monastery of the Caves, is a historic Eastern Orthodox Christian monastery which gave its name to one of the city districts where it is located in Kyiv.

Since its foundation as the cave monastery in 1051, the Lavra has been a preeminent center of Eastern Orthodox Christianity in Eastern Europe.

Etymology and other names

In Ukrainian, the word pechera (in Ukrainian Cyrillic печера) means cave which itself came from Proto-Slavic *реktera that means cave as well. The word lavra is used to describe high-ranking male monasteries for monks of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Therefore, the name of the monastery is also translated as Kyiv Cave Monastery, Kyiv Caves Monastery or the Kyiv Monastery of the Caves (на печерах).

Foundation and early history
The Primary Chronicle contains contradictory information as to when the monastery was founded: in 1051, or in 1074. Anthony, a Christian monk from Esphigmenon monastery on Mount Athos, originally from Liubech of the Principality of Chernigov, returned to Rus' and settled in Kyiv as a missionary of monastic tradition to Kyivan Rus'. He chose a cave at the Berestov Mount that overlooked the Dnieper River and a community of disciples soon grew. Prince Iziaslav I of Kyiv ceded the whole mount to the Anthonite monks who founded a monastery built by architects from Constantinople.

Modern history
Together with the Saint Sophia Cathedral, the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra has been inscribed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site since 1990. The monastery complex is considered a separate national historic-cultural preserve (sanctuary), the national status to which was granted on 13 March 1996. The Lavra is not only located in another part of the city, but is part of a different national sanctuary than Saint Sophia Cathedral. While being a cultural attraction, the monastery is once again active, with over 100 monks in residence. It was named one of the Seven Wonders of Ukraine on 21 August 2007.

Until the end of 2022, jurisdiction over the site had been divided between the state museum, National Kyiv-Pechersk Historic-Cultural Preserve, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) (UOC-MP) as the site of the chief monastery of that Church and the residence of its leader, Onufrius, Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine. In January 2023, the Ukrainian government terminated the UOC-MP's lease of the Dormition Cathedral and the Refectory Church (also known as the Trapezna Church), returning those properties to direct state control. It also announced that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) had been granted permission to celebrate a Christmas service in the Dormition Cathedral, on 7 January 2023, Orthodox Christmas by the Old Calendar, a service which was celebrated by Metropolitan Epiphanius at 9am that day.

On 10 March 2023, the National Kyiv-Pechersk Historic-Cultural Preserve announced that the 2013 agreement on the free use of churches by the UOC-MP would be terminated on the grounds that the church had violated their lease by making alterations to the historic site, and other technical infractions. The UOC-MP was ordered to leave the territory by 29 March. The UOC-MP answered back that there were no legal grounds for the eviction and called it "a whim of officials from the Ministry of Culture." On 17 March 2023 the press secretary for Russian President Vladimir Putin Dmitry Peskov stated that the decision of the Ukrainian authorities not to extend this lease to representatives of the UOC-MP "confirms the correctness" of the (24 February 2022) Russian invasion of Ukraine. The UOC-MP did not fully leave Kyiv Pechersk Lavra following 29 March 2023.

Hegumens
The hegumens of Kyiv Pechersk Lavra are listed below.

Buildings and structures
The Kyiv Pechersk Lavra contains numerous architectural monuments, ranging from bell towers to cathedrals to cave systems and to strong stone fortification walls. The main attractions of the Lavra include the Great Lavra Belltower, and the Dormition Cathedral, destroyed in fighting the Germans World War II, and fully reconstructed in the 1990s after the fall of Soviet Union by Ukraine.

Other churches and cathedrals of the Lavra include: the Refectory Church, the Church of All Saints, the Church of the Saviour at Berestove, the Church of the Exaltation of Cross, the Church of the Trinity, the Church of the Nativity of the Virgin, the Church of the Conception of St. Anne, and the Church of the Life-Giving Spring. The Lavra also contains many other constructions, including: the St. Nicholas Monastery, the Kyiv Theological Academy and Seminary, and the Debosquette Wall.

Great Lavra Belltower
The Great Lavra Belltower is one of the most notable features of the Kyiv skyline and among the main attractions of the Lavra. 96.5 meters in height, it was the tallest free-standing belltower at the time of its construction in 1731–1745, and was designed by the architect Johann Gottfried Schädel. It is a Classical style construction and consists of tiers, surmounted by a gilded dome.

Dormition Cathedral
Built in the 11th century, the main church of the monastery was destroyed during the World War II, a couple of months after the Nazi Germany troops occupied the city of Kyiv, during which the Soviet Union conducted the controversial 1941 Khreshchatyk explosions. Withdrawing Soviet troops practiced the tactics of scorched earth and blew up all the Kyiv bridges over Dnieper as well as the main Khreshchatyk street and Kyiv Pechersk Lavra. The destruction of the cathedral followed a pattern of Soviet disregard for cultural heritage, as they previously blew up the ancient St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery nearby in the 1930s.

In 1928, the monastery was converted into an anti-religious museum park by the Soviet authorities and after their return no efforts were provided to restore the church. The temple was finally restored in 1995 after Ukraine obtained its independence and the construction was accomplished in two years. The new Dormition Church was consecrated in 2000.

Gate Church of the Trinity
The Gate Church of the Trinity is located atop the Holy Gates, which houses the entrance to the monastery. According to a legend, this church was founded by the Chernihiv Prince Sviatoslav II. It was built atop an ancient stone church which used to stand in its place. After the fire of 1718, the church was rebuilt, its revered facades and interior walls enriched with ornate stucco work made by craftsman V. Stefaovych. In the 18th century, a new gilded pear-shaped dome was built, the facade and exterior walls were decorated with stucco-moulded plant ornaments and a vestibule built of stone attached to the north end. In the early 20th century, the fronts and the walls flanking the entrance were painted by icon painters under the guidance of V. Sonin. The interior of the Gate Trinity Church contains murals by the early 18th century painter Alimpy Galik.

Refectory chambers with Church of the Saints Anthony and Theodosius
The refectory chambers with the Church of the Saints Anthony and Theodosius is the third in a series of temples. The original temple was built in the 12th century and no drawings or visual depictions of it remain. The second temple was built at the time of the Cossack Hetmanate and was disassembled by the Russian authorities in the 19th century. It was replaced with the current temple, often referred to as the Refectory Church of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra.

The All Saints Church
The All Saints Church, erected in 1696–1698, is a fine specimen of Ukrainian baroque architecture. Characteristic of the church facades are rich architectural embellishments. In 1905, students of the Lavra art school painted the interior walls of the church. The carved wooden iconostasis is multi-tiered and was made for the All Saints church in the early 18th century.

Church of the Saviour at Berestove

The Church of the Saviour at Berestove is located to the North of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra. It was constructed in the village of Berestove around the start of the 11th century during the reign of Prince Vladimir Monomakh. It later served as the mausoleum of the Monomakh dynasty, also including Yuri Dolgoruki, the founder of Moscow. Despite being outside the Lavra fortifications, the Church of the Saviour at Berestove is part of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra complex.

Caves
The Kyiv Pechersk Lavra caverns are a system of narrow underground corridors (about 1-1½ metres wide and 2-2½ metres high), along with numerous living quarters and underground chapels. In 1051, the monk Anthony settled in an old cave in a hill near the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra. This cave received additions including corridors and a church, and is now the Far Caves. In 1057, Anthony moved to a cave near the Upper Lavra, now called the Near Caves.

Foreign travellers in the 16th–17th centuries wrote that the catacombs of the Lavra stretched for hundreds of kilometres, reaching as far as Moscow and Novgorod, spreading awareness of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra.

Burials
There are over a hundred burials in the Lavra. Below are the most notable ones
 * Ilya Muromets – in the caves (c. 11th–12th century)
 * Nestor the Chronicler – in the Near Caves (c. 1114)
 * Saint Kuksha – in the Near Caves (c. 1114)
 * Alipy of the Caves – in the Near Caves (c. 1114)
 * Agapetus of Pechersk – in the Near Caves (c. 11th century)
 * Oleg son of Vladimir II Monomakh – in the Church of the Saviour at Berestove (c. 12th century)
 * Eufemia of Kyiv daughter of Vladimir II Monomakh – in the Church of the Saviour at Berestove (1139)
 * Yuri Dolgoruki – in the Church of the Saviour at Berestove (1157)
 * Skirgaila – regent Grand Duke of Lithuania (1397)
 * Konstanty Ostrogski – near the Cathedral of the Dormition (1530)
 * Vasily Kochubey – near the Refectory Church (1708)
 * Ivan Iskra – near the Refectory Church (1708)
 * Pyotr Stolypin – near the Refectory Church (1911)
 * St. Spyridon – in the caves (c. 19th–20th century)
 * Pope Clement I – his head in the Far Caves (his remaining relics brought to San Clemente in Rome by Sts. Cyril and Methodius)

During the Soviet era, the bodies of the saints that lay in the caves were left uncovered due to the regime's disregard for religion. However, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the bodies were covered with a cloth and to this day remain in the same state.

Museum

The Kyiv Pechersk Lavra is one of the largest museums in Kyiv. The exposition is the actual ensemble of the Upper (Near Caves) and Lower (Far Caves) Lavra territories, which house many architectural relics of the past. The collection within the churches and caves includes articles of precious metal, prints, higher clergy portraits and rare church hierarchy photographs. The main exposition contains articles from 16th to early 20th centuries, which include chalices, crucifixes, and textiles from 16th–19th centuries, with needlework and embroidery of Ukrainian masters. The remainder of the collection consists of pieces from the Lavra's Printing House and the Lavra's Icon Painting Workshop.

The museum provides tours of the catacombs, which contain remains of Eastern Orthodox saints or their relics. The Caves are of geological interest because they are excavated into loess ground. They form one of the most extensive occurrences of loess caves in the world.

The Lavra museums include:
 * Museum of Historical Treasures of Ukraine
 * Martynivka Treasure
 * Book and print history museum
 * Museum of Ukrainian Folk Art
 * Theater and film arts museum
 * State historical library

title: Kyiv Pechersk Lavra


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North Platte River

The North Platte River is a major tributary of the Platte River and is approximately 716 mi long, counting its many curves. In a straight line, it travels about 550 mi, along its course through the U.S. states of Colorado, Wyoming, and Nebraska.

The head of the river is essentially all of Jackson County, Colorado, whose boundaries are the continental divide on the west and south and the mountain drainage peaks on the east—the north boundary is the state of Wyoming border. The rugged Rocky Mountains surrounding Jackson County have at least twelve peaks over 11000 ft in height. From Jackson County the river flows north about 200 mi out of the Routt National Forest and North Park (Colorado basin) near what is now Walden, Colorado, to Casper, Wyoming. Shortly after passing Casper, the river turns to the east-southeast and flows about 350 mi to the city of North Platte, Nebraska.

The North Platte and South Platte River join to form the Platte River in western Nebraska near the city of North Platte, Nebraska. The Platte River flows to the Missouri River, which joins the Mississippi River to flow to the Gulf of Mexico. The river provides the major avenue of drainage for northern Colorado, eastern Wyoming and western Nebraska. It is only navigable over most of its length at high water by canoes, kayaks and rubber rafts.

History as a trail west

The North Platte River drainage has been an important westward route in the westward expansion of the United States. To get the two essentials, water and grass, for the traveler's animals the emigration trails nearly always followed river valleys across the North American continent. These trails extended from the Missouri River, Platte River and North Platte River across Nebraska and parts of Wyoming and on to its confluence with the Sweetwater River. About 50 mi beyond what is now Casper, Wyoming the main emigration trails left the North Platte valley and followed the Sweetwater River valley and other river valleys going further west.

The trail route along the North Platte River was first written about by Wilson Price Hunt of the Astor Expedition who was traveling back to the Missouri River from the newly established Fort Astoria on the Columbia River in 1811. The lack of American trappers and settlers in the contested Oregon Territory resulted in this early discovery being unused and nearly forgotten. Jedediah Smith and several trappers in 1823 rediscovered the route and the trail along the Platte, North Platte and Sweetwater Rivers became a major trail to the fur trader’s summer time Rocky Mountain Rendezvous. Mule trains carrying in trading supplies for the mountain men and fur trappers were some of the first to use the trail in 1824. The fur traders on their return trip carried the traded furs back east at the end of the summer trading season. This fur trade route continued to be used to about 1840. By about 1832 the trail along the Platte, North Platte, and Sweetwater Rivers had been improved by the fur traders to a rough wagon trail from the Missouri River to the Green River in Wyoming where most of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous occurred. Following the fur traders, the major emigration trails established along the north and south banks of the North Platte River were the Oregon (1843–1869), California (1843–1869), Mormon (1847–1869) and the Bozeman (1863–68) Trails. The trails north of the North Platte River originally crossed the North Platte near Fort Laramie to join the original Oregon and California Trail Route on the south side. In 1850 Child's Route (Child's Cutoff) extended the north side trail to what is now Casper, Wyoming. The rugged territory from Fort Laramie, Wyoming to Casper meant that the trails often deviated from the river to find an easier path and relied on streams draining into the North Platte for water.

River description
Up in central north Colorado rests North Park (Colorado basin), a valley ringed by 12000 ft mountains. The headwaters of the river is essentially all of Jackson County, Colorado whose boundaries are the continental divide on the west and south and the mountain drainage peaks on the east—the north boundary is the state of Wyoming boundary. The rugged Rocky Mountains Continental Divide surrounding Jackson County have at least twelve peaks over 11000 ft in height. These peaks include on the west: Mount Zirkel 12180 ft, Lost ranger Peak 11932 ft and Mount Ethel 11924 ft; on the south: Sheep Mountain 11819 ft and Parkview Mountain 12296 ft—whose waters on the south or east side drain into the North Platte River drainage. On the east are: Mount Nimbus 12706 ft, Mount Cumulus 12725 ft, Howard Mountain 12810 ft, Mount Cirrus 12797 ft, Mount Richthofen 12940 ft, Lead Mountain 12537 ft, North Diamond Peak 11852 ft and Clark Peak 12951 ft whose eastern slope waters drain into the North Platte River.

In Jackson county the North Platte is joined by several other small streams draining the mountains around the county. Some of these creeks are: Arapaho Creek, Colorado Creek, East Branch Illinois River, Jack Creek, Jewell Lake Trib., Grizzly Creek, Little Grizzly Creek, Norris Creek, North Fork of North Platte River, Rock Creek (Little Willow Ck), South Fork Canadian River, South Fork Michigan River, Willow Creek and in Wyoming the Encampment River. All these streams are draining the snow melt form the mountains surrounding Jackson County. The North Platte River flows northward from Colorado into Wyoming through the popular rafting site – Northgate Canyon which is along the western side of the Medicine Bow Mountains.

In Colorado and Wyoming, the river is narrower and much swifter flowing than it is in Nebraska, where it becomes a slow flowing, shallow braided stream. The upper reaches of the river in the Rockies in Colorado and Wyoming are popular for recreation rafting and fly fishing on the river and its many tributaries for rainbow trout and other sport fish. In western Nebraska, the banks and riverbed of the North Platte provide a green oasis amid an otherwise semi-arid region of North America.

The river has been dammed several times to form several reservoirs along its course. On the north end of the Park range it is joined by the Medicine Bow River in the Seminoe Reservoir formed by Seminoe Dam, further downstream is the Kortes Reservoir. Still further downstream about 50 mi above Casper the North Platte is joined by the Sweetwater River to form the Pathfinder Reservoir. Northeast of the Pathfinder Reservoir it passes through the Alcova and Gray Reef reservoirs before it hits Casper. Casper was established in 1888 east of the former site of Fort Caspar, which was built about 1859 during the mass migration along the Oregon, California, Mormon and Bozeman trails. Near what is now Casper was the location of several ferries that offered passage across the North Platte River during the summer "Trail season" starting about 1847. In 1847, during the first Mormon emigration, Brigham Young leading the Mormon settlers to Salt Lake City, Utah established a ferry near present-day Casper known as the Mormon Ferry. The next year the ferry was moved a few miles down river. Soon competing ferries were built. In 1859, Louis Guinard built a toll bridge across the North Platte and a trading post near the original ferry's locations. Before reaching Casper the river turns and flows northeast between the Granite Mountains to the west and the Laramie Mountains to the east.

The North Platte emerges from the mountains near Casper, where it turns and flows east-southeast, along the northern edge of the Laramie Mountains onto the Great Plains. The North Platte flows east-southeast across the plains of eastern Wyoming, past the town of Douglas, Wyoming and through Glendo and Guernsey Reservoirs. It then flows past the Fort Laramie National Historic Site (the former site of Fort Laramie), where it is joined by the Laramie River. The North Platte is joined by Horse Creek flowing in from Wyoming near the Wyoming-Nebraska border as its last significant addition. It crosses into western Nebraska, flowing east-southeast between the cities of Scottsbluff, Nebraska and Gering, Nebraska. In Keith County, Nebraska, the Kingsley Dam forms Lake C.W. McConaughy, the largest reservoir in Nebraska and a significant irrigation and recreation facility for the region. Kingsley Dam, constructed in 1935 to 1941, is located on the east side of Lake McConaughy in central Keith County, Nebraska, and is the second largest hydraulic fill dam in the world. East of the Kingsley dam the North Platte River flows nearly parallel to the South Platte River. In many places they are separated by only about 5 mi (8 km) for a stretch of about 50 mi (80 km) before they join to form the Platte River just east of the city of North Platte, Nebraska.

The wagon trails following the south side of the Platte/North Platte River ferried or waded in low water years across the South Platte River in several places to stay on the south side of the North Platte River where the trails were located. Those who later went on to Denver, Colorado followed the South Platte River trail into Colorado. Historically, the North Platte River used to be up to a mile wide (1.6 km) in many places as evidenced by the old streambed and written records. Today, by the time the North Platte reaches Paxton, Nebraska it is much smaller due to the extensive water taken from it for irrigation.

title: North Platte River