text:
Lee Eyerly

Lee Ulrich Eyerly (February 22, 1892 – March 23, 1963) was an American civil aviation pioneer and amusement ride manufacturer. Eyerly helped found Salem Oregon's McNary Field, built the Flying E Ranch in Wickenburg, Arizona and invented several amusement park rides including the Loop-O-Plane, the Roll-O-Plane the Fly-O-Plane the Rock-O-Plane, and the Octopus.

Early life
Eyerly was born February 22, 1892 in Canton. In 1909, his family moved to the Judith Basin area of Montana to take advantage of the Homestead Act and Eyerly worked as a cowboy. Throughout his youth, Eyerly displayed an aptitude for mechanics and found work repairing broken farm equipment while building racing automobiles and small model airplanes for amusement.

By 1919, Montana suffered from wind erosion and drought, and the opportunities for repairing farm equipment dwindled. Eyerly moved with his wife and children to Salem, Oregon, where he became a heavy-equipment operator, working on the state’s burgeoning system of roads. As automobiles became more popular, he opened a service station called "The Grease Spot." In 1920, he paid $100 for flying lessons in a Jenny from local World War I pilot Elmer J. Cook and soloed after three hours – the only formal flying instruction he ever received.

Career
From a defunct carnival, Eyerly purchased a Curtis Canuck that he named "Donnie Brook" and began stunt-flying and barnstorming along the west coast. From 1923 to 1926, Eyerly and his family lived in Waldport, Oregon, where he also worked as a ferry operator and owned a tow boat business. In 1926, they moved back to Salem, and he purchased a small Waco mail bi-plane.

In 1927, with bond funds raised by the American Legion, Eyerly purchased a five-acre (20,000 m2) site on one end of the local fairgrounds on which he established a dirt runway, built airplane hangars and founded the Pacific Airplane Service. The airport would eventually evolve into Salem's municipal McNary Field. It was dedicated in 1929 with Eyerly as the airport manager. By 1929, he had founded an aviation school, and later, the first aircraft service station on the west coast.

When the Great Depression hit, he devised an inexpensive plane and pilot trainer and founded the Eyerly Aircraft Company to manufacture them. The first was the Whiffle Hen, a plane which only burned two US gallons (8 L) of fuel per hour of flight. The second was a ground-based flight training device patented under the name "Orientator". The Orientator consisted of a small airplane suspended in what looked like the tines of a giant tuning fork. Air from the electrically driven propeller passed over the wings and rudder, and the operator controlled the movements of the plane in a manner similar to a real aircraft.

The Orientator was produced commercially and five were purchased by the Cuban government. When the Orientator became popular with visitors at state fairs and carnivals, and Eyerly realized the Orientator was more profitable as an amusement park ride. It was renamed the Acroplane and 54 were subsequently produced. Eyerly changed his company's focus from aircraft to amusement rides.

Eyerly developed and patented numerous amusement rides which would become staples of carnival midways, including The Loop-O-Plane (1933), the Roll-O-Plane, the Fly-O-Plane and the Rock-O-Plane (1948). His most popular design was the Octopus, of which almost 400 were sold, and resulted in later variations: the Spider and the Monster. Two of his kiddie carousel rides were the Midge-O-Racer and Bulgy the Whale.

Although Eyerly’s manufacturing business became amusement rides, the name of his company remained Eyerly Aircraft and he maintained his interest in aeronautics. He served on the Oregon Aeronautics Board from the 1920s to 1958, including ten years as its chair. In 2001, Eyerly was named the third inductee into the Oregon Aviation Hall of Fame.

Personal life
Eyerly married Meta H. Wieglenda (1893-1989) on June 22, 1913 in Hobson, Montana. The couple raised two sons and two daughters.

Eyerly twice crashed in an airplane. In 1929, he crashed nose down into the ground while performing in a stunt contest during an air derby in Eugene, Oregon. He suffered a cerebral concussion, fractured right arm, and contusions of the shoulder, neck, back and right hip. Eyerly said he was at fault for violating some fundamentals of flying. The second time he was forced to ditch his plane in the San Francisco Bay when the engine quit on a foggy night. He and his three passengers were picked up by a ferry boat.

Eyerly died of cancer on March 23, 1963, in Salem, Oregon.

title: Lee Eyerly


text:
Talk:Hula massacre

Removed:

 * 'The only modern sources for this information seem to be:

What is the point of listing secondary sources like that, and what is a "modern source" anyway? --Zero 00:53, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) An article by R. Barkan from the Mapam(?) newspaper Al Hamishmar, title not given, quoting a letter from eyewitness Dov Yirmiya, translated in the Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. VII, no. 4 (summer 1978), no. 28, pp. 143-145.
 * 2) References (to the above?) in Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, p. 89;  Morris, Birth, p. 350, note 37; Chomsky, Fateful Triangle, p. 165.
 * 3) The above were referenced from Chomsky's article Scenes from the Uprising and in discussions on middleeastinfo.org

That's what a References section is for; I wasn't ready to create another top-level section for it, but perhaps should have. The point is to help people strengthen a weak article by a) identifying weaknesses, and b) giving them places to begin research. +sj+ 00:56, 2004 Feb 21 (UTC)

 * Most of the above is discussion, it belongs in the Talk page. Chomsky is irrelevant.  What does Morris' footnote say in full? --Zero 02:06, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above are cites themselves cited in Chomsky and online. Very 4th-hand info. +sj+

I have the Journal of Palestine Studies article and checked what is here against that. I'll look to see if Morris has a more direct citation of sources. --Zero 00:58, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC) (much obliged -- +sj+)

The original Birth of Morris only helps a little. On p230 Morris quotes a 1948 report by Galili (Head of Haganah Staff) that at Saliha "94...were blown up in a house". In the footnote, Morris writes "This is the only reference I have found to an atrocity at Saliha. Perhaps Galili (or Cohen [who took the minutes --Zero]) had confused the name of the village and was referring to the atrocity that had taken place in the Lebanese village of Hule, in which 34 villagers were murdered by IDF troops." He gives no reference for Hule, which is unusual for him but I guess it is peripheral to his book since it was in Lebanon. Morris lists Hule amongst the places where there was a massacre also in two of his later books (1948 and After and Righteous Victims) but no citation there either. The value of 34 does not appear in the JPS article, so Morris must have some other source. To add confusion, he has clearly found more information about Saliha because in his Haaretz interview a month or two ago he named Saliha as "one of the worst cases...(70-80 killed)". We can only hope that all this is clarified in his recent revision Birth...Revisited which I have on order but it didn't arrive yet. I'll bring this note up to date when it arrives. --Zero 04:43, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm annoyed that I can't find much information about past members/admins of this org; it would be nice to find better information about Lahis, if he is for real; what years he was Secretary General, what year he was tried, etc. Since there was an Israeli trial just after the massacre, it should be all over the Hebrew-language papers from back then... +sj+ 12:05, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

The fact that Shmuel Lahis was Secretary of the Jewish Agency in 1980 is clear from. An earlier or later appointment as Treasurer can be seen at. I also found a 1981 journal article (nothing to do with Hula) that calls him Director-General of the JA. (Variations in the name of the position are prob just translation differences.) His term as Sec Gen was something like 1978-1981 but I don't have a solid source for that. Anyway, I don't know why you imagine that Al Hamishmar would make up something like that. As for the trial, you have a misunderstanding. Military trials like this were conducted in secret and highly classified. Even today these archives are mostly not available to historians. It is most unlikely that anything appeared in newspapers at the time. --Zero 13:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Of course the original newspaper wouldn't make something like that up, but the name or position could have been garbled when it was re-reported by these article-writers and book-authors. -+sj+

I also found a translation of a 1979 article by Uri Avnery in Haolam Hazeh where he mentioned "the mass murder of 34 villagers by the war criminal Shmuel Lahis who was appointed Director-General of the Jewish Agency a year ago". (There's the value 34 that Morris gave.) --Zero 13:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Good. Add cite for that article to the page?

In Birth...Revisited, Morris cites a 2000 book published by the IDF/Ministry of Defense Press, and also a military communique of December 1948. Morris also cites his own interview with Yirmiya. --Zero 04:37, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * the personal inverview is very interesting... any direct quotes from Morris?  -+sj+

The paragraph added after the quote (which I remember reading from the original article) seems garbled... a confirming source would help clear it up. I'd love to know the actual terms for "stigma", what the full quote from the referenced "response" was, and how it could be that the JA of 1978 had known anything "since 1961". -+sj+ 05:13, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

I restored the commented section. I don't know why you mentioned Indimedia, which I have not even looked at. My source was the Journal of Palestine Studies, reference cited. The information given there is from the letter written by Arie Dulzin, the Chairman of the JA, to Dov Yirmiya, in reply to the latter's complaint about the appointment of Lahis as Director General. Since this comes from the interview with Yirmiya published by Al Hamishmar, one can assume that the text of Dulzin's letter was provided by Yirmiya. The quote I gave with the word "stigma" in it is exactly what appears in JPS as a quote given by Dulzin -- the letter of Dulzin which is translated at length in the article contains this as a quotation attributed to the Israeli Legal Counsel, April 20, 1955. I don't know the original Hebrew word translated as "stigma" and don't have time to research it, but the meaning in the context is clear enough. Lahis had applied for registration as a lawyer and the rules required him to be of good character. This matter was not regarded as sufficient to exclude him (and I don't find that surprising at all). Morris does not quote Yirmiya explicitly but gives an account of the whole affair which agrees with this article.

 * You should make it clear that not only the quote, but the paragraph following, come from Al Hamishmar via JPS. Seeing as the only ref for this bit is this chain of two Palestinian sources, it also seems appropriate to couch those sentences in a more speculative light.  And Dulzin deserves mention here!  +sj+
 * Excuse me, but Al Hamishmar was a Jewish newspaper and JPS is an academic journal. Neither are "Palestinian sources". I'll mention Dulzin. --Zero 21:43, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I also removed the phrase about the "rebirth" of the JA, which I did not put there. I cannot find anything that says the JA had not existed continuously; for example the history on the JA site does not mention anything about a break in existence. --Zero 06:07, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * surprisingly hard to get JA info. Here's a ref which also seems to mention a "reconstitution" in 1971:  JCPA article; it also notes that twenty years ago there was 'only one' real reference about the JA...  +sj+ 15:06, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)

Amnesty
The sentence about the "amnesty in 1950 and then presidential amnesty in 1955" is very strange. Israel has no amnesty other than presidential amnesty. What is the source for this information? Gadykozma 19:34, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Here is the complete relevant section from Al Hamishmar (according to the JPS translation cited in ref 1 at the top of this page).
 * At the trial, at which Yirmiya was called on to give evidence, Lahis was convicted of the murder of people in Hula in Lebanon between October 31 and November 1, 1948, and sentenced to seven years in prison on July 17, 1949. The defence appealed to a Military Court of Appeal which reduced the sentence from seven years to one year in prison.  On April 20, 1950, Lahis was given an amnesty from the sentence and later given a second, "unconditional amnesty" on July 29, 1955, by President Ben Zvai.
 * That is all I have about the amnesties. I assume that the first one was some military thing since the trial was a military trial.  It's also possible that one of the amnesties was general (applying to a class of persons) and the other was personal, but that's only a guess.  --Zero 03:04, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, I have a guess. April 20, 1950 would be 8 months after he was sent to prison, which would be 2/3 of his term. Releasing a prisoner after 2/3 term in Israel is standard (the conditions are that the prisoner repents or something like it), and cannot be considered "amnesty". If you have no further information, how about removing the word "amnesty" for the 1950 release?
 * Fair enough. I did it. --Zero 09:23, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

1959 ruling
I found a 1959 Supreme Court ruling related to this case. Feel free to remind me if I didn't cite it in the article for a week or two. --Zero 11:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

WTF ??
this article is complete bull. it has no sources and it's completely wrong. Also this supposed ruling is not existant, there was never any ruling of a MASSACRE. These all allegations were refuted entirely later. Needs to be deleted. Amoruso
 * Reverted. Please don't slap tags on multiple pages the way you just did. Instead, you should bring arguments specific to the article and the cites to back it up. See WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV. Your changes turns up on the NPOV backlog and other backlogs -- Steve Hart 00:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Where are the reliable resources?
This article is full of rumors and un-professional sources of information (a newspaper?). Ive looked for more information on this case so we could write a true and well- based article, but the only reference I found was Benny Moris. I think it is very problematic and therefore this article should be deleted till the facts will be known.

(ScottyNolan (talk) 10:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC))

Lemma
Please stop this edit war and use the talk page to come to an agreement regarding the lemma. --LeastCommonAncestor (talk) 13:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hula massacre


text:
Talk:Japanese macaque

A terrestrial monkey (paragraph one) that spends the majority of its time in the trees (paragraph two)?
 * Yes.... they live on the ground in forests (in trees). I think the problem was one of translation. I've made a minor, clarifying edit. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Can someone add the pronunciation for macaque? ~MDD4696 18:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It is pronounced something like Makak 72.192.80.123 14:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * more like muckuck' I would say --92.202.15.47 (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's said 'mack ack' Vauxhall1964 (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

How Many?
Any idea how common they are, anybody? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.110.221.18 (talk • contribs).

They are very very common! In Japan, they harass shopkeepers so much that the shopkeepers use Airsoft Plastic B.B. Guns to ward away the monkeys from stealing goods! They are predominantly found in Mid to Northern Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.35.54 (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine?
To the sentence, "The Japanese macaque has featured prominently in the religion, folklore, and art of Japan", a contributor added "cuisine" to the list. Now, some Japanese person may or may not eat monkey meat somewhere in Japan, but I would say that monkey meat has definitely NOT "featured prominently" in Japanese cuisine. So I reverted the edit. Boneyard90 (talk) 01:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Well, there is also a sake house in Japan, Kayabukiya Tavern, where monkeys constitute a prominent part of the waitstaff, or rather did before the tsunami (not sure about the current situation), but I'll admit this is an oddity there almost as much as it would be elsewhere, not a "prominent" aspect of that end of "cuisine" either... --Haruo (talk) 15:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Anus
Seeing as this monkey has such a brightly coloured shocking looking anus, could we get some photos of it on this page? Close ups if possible 134.134.137.73 (talk) 19:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Male average height: 570.1 mm?
How could it make sense to specify the average height for a species of monkey with four significant figures and percentages of their "typical day" with three significant figures? - 153.120.215.243 (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's in the cited source. Our job as editors isn't to change the sources because it may or may not meet our perceptions or opinions.  SkepticalRaptor (talk) 02:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you mean that Wikipedia always has to be as detailed as its sources? And what was wrong in the rounding? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.120.215.243 (talk) 02:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Still no response here? Please explain why it makes sense in an encyclopedia to use four significant figures to describe the average length of a subset of a species of an animal. To me, this feels like saying that going by car from Los Angeles to San Diego would on average take two hours, four minutes and fifty seconds. 153.120.215.243 (talk) 03:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As was said, we have no mandate to round down. How far should we round down? Not our job. That would be encroaching on WP:OR. We report what is published in scientific sources. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks UtherSRG. I don't know every Wikipedia rule, regulation and law, so now I know.  The anonymous IP editor also violated some basic rounding principles, by rounding up and down without regards to what the number actually was.  I forget the actual statistical principle, but the more individual data points you have, the more significant digits can be used in data.  I think we should always stick to the sources.  SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Truly, though, if we have a source that gives a range of values (the 95% confidence interval, typically) that would be better than a single value. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be better. Let me see if we can find it.  And advice to 153.120.215.243.  In fact, if you measured 100 cars driving from LA to SD, it would be appropriate to say the average is 2 hr 4 min 50 sec.  Rounding to 2 hr would inherently add error, in this case 3% error.  If the data said we are 99% confident that the average is, in fact, 2 hr 4 min 50 sec, you are intentionally trying to change that average to what is essentially a random number.  Not acceptable. If you want to change numbers, then bring citations that support an average or range of numbers. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Killer Dolphins
I have posted a long comment in the Talk section of the main Macaque genus article, about the renaming of all the macaque species articles to "[Name] Macaque" (e.g. "Barbary Macaque") from their traditionally names (e.g. Barbary Ape).

Would you please take a look at that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macaque#Killer_Dolphins

And then correct this individual species article as necessary — I'm not sure which macaque species may have actually been called "[Name] Macaque" traditionally.

(And I hope you can see that the fact that I don't know that, after reading a Wikipedia article about the species, is why rewriting reality in Wikipedia is a problem.)

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.30.135 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Japanese macaque. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101129072822/http://rickwalton.com/folktale/japan16.htm to http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/japan16.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:58, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Changes in documented female troop leadership
Yakei, the former female leader of her troop has been replaced by Goro, a male monkey seemingly 16 years old. The zoo made an inauguration ceremony to celebrate the new head of the group.

News is from 3 days ago, still recent so who knows what will happen in the future. The two articles are in Japanese; I've found no English sources yet. Anyhow, it should be easy to verify my claims using google translate on them for example. 66.81.165.248 (talk) 08:24, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Japanese macaque


text:
Raw device

In computing, specifically in Unix and Unix-like operating systems, a raw device is a special kind of logical device associated with a character device file that allows a storage device such as a hard disk drive to be accessed directly, bypassing the operating system's caches and buffers (although the hardware caches might still be used). Applications like a database management system can use raw devices directly, enabling them to manage how data is cached, rather than deferring this task to the operating system.

In FreeBSD, all device files are in fact raw devices. Support for non-raw devices was removed in FreeBSD 4.0 in order to simplify buffer management and increase scalability and performance.

In Linux kernel, raw devices were deprecated and scheduled for removal at one point, because the O_DIRECT flag can be used instead. However, later the decision was made to keep raw devices support since some software cannot use the O_DIRECT flag. Raw devices simply open block devices as if the O_DIRECT flag would have been specified. Raw devices are character devices (major number 162). The first minor number (i.e. 0) is reserved as a control interface and is usually found at /dev/rawctl. A command-line utility called raw can be used to bind a raw device to an existing block device. These "existing block devices" may be disks or CD-ROMs/DVDs whose underlying interface can be anything supported by the Linux kernel (for example, IDE/ATA or SCSI).

title: Raw device


text:
Ion (window manager)

In Unix computing, Ion is a tiling and tabbing window manager for the X Window System. It is designed such that it is possible to manage windows using only a keyboard, without needing a mouse. It is the successor of PWM and is written by the same author, Tuomo Valkonen. Since the first release of Ion in the summer 2000, similar alternative window management ideas have begun to show in other new window managers: Larswm, ratpoison, StumpWM, wmii, xmonad and dwm.

First versions of Ion were released under the Artistic License, Ion2 and the development versions of Ion3 were released under the GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL). However, the first release candidate of Ion3 included a license change to a custom license based on the LGPL (specifically modified versions must not use the name ion).

Since version 2, Ion has been scriptable in Lua.

As of September 17, 2009, Valkonen states he is unlikely to continue development of Ion by himself.

The official home page went offline in early 2010.

A fork, Notion (Not-ion), is being maintained.

Alternatives
The Notion (Not-ion) fork is actively maintained with packages available for the Linux distributions gentoo, Debian, Arch, SUSE and Fedora as well as NetBSD and Solaris (Solaris 10, OpenSolaris and OpenIndiana).

Window managers similar to ion include awesome, dwm, i3, larswm, and xmonad.

Controversy
Tuomo Valkonen, the author of Ion, has been at the center of several controversies concerning the licensing and distribution of his software, in particular the proclivity of major Linux and BSD distributions of making outdated development versions of Ion3 (the current unstable development branch) available as part of "frozen" software repositories. Often, such versions will include patches, such as for Xinerama or Xft support, both of which Valkonen disapproves on professional and personal grounds and has had removed from the main source tree. Yet, such distribution would seem to imply that the patched version is the official Ion3 package maintained by Valkonen himself, which he sees as unacceptable. Valkonen has even recently become an outspoken critic of the entire free software and open-source movement (the "FOSS herd", as he refers to it) due to his perceived mistreatment at the hands of several major distributions, including Arch Linux, Debian, pkgsrc (NetBSD, DragonflyBSD), and FreeBSD.

On April 28, 2007, Valkonen warned the Arch Linux maintainers of possible legal action because the (unofficial) Arch User Repository contained scripts to install Ion3 with patches he did not approve of. Later on he did the same with the pkgsrc maintainer of the NetBSD project and the ports maintainer of the FreeBSD project. As of December 12, 2007, the development branch of Ion, along with other software by Valkonen, was pulled from the FreeBSD ports tree, after the author filed a complaint about outdated development releases still being available. Any version of Ion may still be installed from source code on any Unix system with proper libraries and dependencies.

Valkonen has implied in several mailing lists that he has become completely disillusioned with, if not openly hostile toward, the free software community in general. He plans to switch to developing strictly closed-source software for the Windows platform in the future. As of 2018, the author claims to have "found more worthwhile hobbies" than programming for the "Free Software movement", opining that it amounts to "bug-ridden clone[s] ... with a centralised software distribution mechanism". Borgend, Valkonen's latest published program as of 2018, remains open-source and is compatible with Unix-like systems, including Macintosh OS X, his present operating system of choice.

title: Ion (window manager)


text:
Winchester Model 1897

The Winchester Model 1897, also known as the Model 97, M97, Riot Gun, or Trench Gun, is a pump-action shotgun with an external hammer and tube magazine manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The Model 1897 was an evolution of the Winchester Model 1893 designed by John Browning. From 1897 until 1957, over one million of these shotguns were produced. The Model 1897 was offered in numerous barrel lengths and grades, chambered in 12 and 16 gauge, and as a solid frame or takedown. The 16-gauge guns had a standard barrel length of 28 in, while 12-gauge guns were furnished with 30 in barrels. Special length barrels could be ordered in lengths as short as 20 in or as long as 36 in. Since the time the Model 1897 was first manufactured, it has been used to great effect by American military personnel, law enforcement officers, and hunters.

History
The Winchester Model 1897 was designed by American firearms inventor John Moses Browning. The Model 1897 was first listed for sale in the November 1897 Winchester catalog as a 12 gauge solid frame. The 12 gauge takedown model was added in October 1898, and the 16 gauge takedown model in February 1900. Originally produced as a tougher, stronger and more improved version of the Winchester 1893, itself an improvement on the early Spencer 1882 pump-action shotgun, the 1897 was identical to its forerunner, except that the receiver was thicker and allowed for use of smokeless powder shells, which were not common at the time. The 1897 introduced a "take down" design, where the barrel and magazine tube could easily be separated from the receiver for cleaning or transportation, the ease of removal of the barrel becoming a standard in pump shotguns made today, like the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 series. Over time, "the model 97 became the most popular shotgun on the American market and established a standard of performance by which other kinds and makes of shotguns were judged, including the most expensive imported articles". The Winchester Model 1897 was in production from 1897 until 1957. It was in this time frame that the "modern" hammerless designs became common, like the Winchester Model 1912, the Ithaca Model 1937, and the Remington 870. The Model 1897 was superseded by the Winchester Model 1912. However, the gun can still be found today in regular use.

Improvements from the 1893
While designing the new Model 1897, many of the weaknesses present in the earlier Model 1893 were taken into account and remedied. These improvements included:

 * The frame was strengthened and made longer to handle the newer smokeless powder 12 gauge $2 3/4$ inch shell, as well as the older and shorter black powder $2 5/8$ inch shell.
 * The top of the frame was covered so that the ejection of the fired shell was entirely from the side. This added a lot of strength to the frame of the gun and it allowed the use of a $2 3/4$ inch shell without the danger of the gun constantly jamming.
 * The action could not be opened until a slight forward movement of the slide handle released the action slide lock. In firing, the recoil of the shotgun gave a slight forward motion to the slide handle and released the action slide lock which enabled the immediate opening of the action. In the absence of any recoil, the slide handle had to be pushed forward manually in order to release the action slide lock.
 * A movable cartridge guide was placed on the right side of the carrier block to prevent the escape of the shell when the shotgun was turned sideways in the act of loading.
 * The stock was made longer and with less drop.

Of these improvements, the slide lock is the one that made the Model 1897 into a safe firearm. This improved slide lock kept the shotgun locked until actual firing occurred which prevented it from jamming in the case of a misfire. The slide lock "stands in such a relation to the body of the firing pin as will prevent the firing pin reaching the primer until the pin has moved forward a sufficient distance to insure locking of the breech bolt". This prevents the action sleeve "from being retracted by the hand of the gunner until after firing, and hence rendering the firearm more safe".

Description

The Winchester Model 1897 and the Winchester Model 1893 were both designed by John Browning. The Model 1897 is an external hammer shotgun that is lacking a trigger disconnector. This means that the user can hold the trigger down while cycling the shotgun and once the action is returned to battery the shotgun fires. The firearm itself is classified as a slide action pump shotgun. It was the first truly successful pump-action shotgun produced. Throughout the time period the Model 1897 was in production, over a million of the type were produced in various grades and barrel lengths. 16-gauge guns had a standard barrel length of 28 in, while 12-gauge guns were furnished with 30 in length barrels. Special length barrels could be ordered in lengths as short as 20 in, and as long as 36 in. Along with various grades and barrel lengths, the Model 1897 came in two different chamberings. One was the 12 gauge and the other was the 16 gauge. The shells should be of the $2 5/8$ inch or $2 3/4$ inch models. Any shells larger are not recommended. An average Model 1897 can hold 5 or 6 shotgun shells in the magazine tube. When working the action of the Model 1897 the forend (fore grip) is pulled back, forcing the breech bolt to the rear which extracts and then ejects the spent shell while simultaneously cocking the external hammer by pushing it to the rear. When the forend is slid forward again, the breech bolt pushes a fresh shell into the gun's chamber and locks into place.

The Chinese company Norinco has made an effort to reproduce this firearm. The Norinco 97 is an almost exact copy of the Winchester 1897, produced in both Trench and Riot grades, yet lacking in the fit and finish of the originals.

Original prices
When the Model 1897 was first introduced, the price depended upon what grade was being purchased and what features were being added to that specific shotgun. To purchase a plain finished shotgun would cost the buyer $25, whereas an engraved receiver with checkered and finer wood included cost $100. The more expensive grades of the Model 1897 were the standard, trap, pigeon, and tournament grades. These were the grades that were normally equipped with an engraved receiver and with checkered, finer wood. The less expensive and plainer grades were the Brush, Brush Takedown, Riot, and Trench. These grades were not given the higher valued wood or special designs. This is because these guns were designed and built for hard abuse. These grades stood a higher chance of being badly damaged so there was no need to put extra money into them for appearance purposes. As the functions that were performed with these grades required them to be lightweight, it was not beneficial to use heavy and expensive wood when designing them. Most often, when these grades were purchased, they were purchased in high numbers. By designing these grades with standard wood and finish, it kept the prices at a lower level. They were also sold in German catalogues for prices comparable to luxury double-barreled shotguns.

Military use

The Model 1897 was issued to American soldiers during the Philippine–American War of 1899. This first major use of issued shotguns by the United States military involved 200 weapons procured and sent to the Philippines in 1900. They were employed in countering Moro tribesmen who engaged the Americans in close-quarter combat using knives and swords. (See: juramentado)

During the punitive expedition in Mexico, some US soldiers were also equipped with M97s. Already popular before World War I, sales of the Model 1897 picked up after the war broke. This was because many were produced to meet the demands of the military. When the United States entered World War I, there was a need for more service weapons to be issued to the troops. It became clear to the United States just how brutal trench warfare was, and how great the need was for a large amount of close-range firepower while fighting in a trench, after they had observed the war for the first three years. The Model 1897 Trench grade was an evolution of this idea. The pre-existing Winchester Model 1897 was modified by adding a perforated steel heat shield over the barrel which kept the soldier's hands off a hot barrel, and an adapter with bayonet lug for affixing an M1917 bayonet.

This model was ideal for close combat and was efficient in trench warfare due to its 20-inch cylinder bore barrel. Buckshot ammunition was issued with the trench grade during the war. Each round of this ammunition contained nine 00 (.33-caliber) buckshot pellets. This gave considerable firepower to the individual soldier by each round that was fired. This shorter barrel and large amount of firepower is what made this grade ideal for trench warfare.

It has been said that American soldiers who were skilled at trap shooting were armed with these guns and stationed where they could fire at enemy hand grenades in midair.

Unlike most modern pump-action shotguns, the Winchester Model 1897 (versions of which were type classified as the Model 97 or M97 for short) fired each time the action closed with the trigger depressed (that is, it lacks a trigger disconnector). Coupled with its five-shot capacity, this made it effective for close combat, such that troops referred to it as a "trench sweeper". This characteristic allowed troops to fire the whole magazine with great speed, known as "slam firing". The Model 1897 was so effective, and feared, that the German government protested (in vain) to have it outlawed in combat. The Model 1897 was used again in World War II by the United States Army and Marine Corps, where it was used alongside the similarly militarized version of the hammerless Model 1912. Some were still in service during the Korean War and the Vietnam War.

Other military uses of the shotgun included "the execution of security/interior guard operations, rear area security operations, guarding prisoners of war, raids, ambushes, military operations in urban terrain, and selected special operations". Despite protesting them, Germans did not listen to Ludendorff and decided to use and unofficially adopt the M1897 for their own use with modifications and named it "trench mauser" and mainly place them with stormtroopers.

World War I protests
The Model 1897 was popular with American troops in World War I, and the Germans soon began to protest its use in combat. "On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by the law of war." A part of the German protest read that "[i]t is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" as defined in the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare. This is the only known occasion in which the legality of actual combat use of the shotgun has been raised. However, the United States interpreted its use of the shotgun differently than Germany. The Judge Advocate General of the Army, Secretary of State Robert Lansing, promptly rejected the German protest. France and Britain had double-barreled shotguns available for use as trench warfare weapons during World War I; however, unable to obtain high-powered ammunition and judging reload speed too slow for close combat, these countries did not field them.

The rejection of their protest greatly upset the German forces, because they believed they were treated unjustly in the war. Shortly after the protest was rejected, Germany issued threats that they would punish all captured American soldiers that were found to be armed with a shotgun. This led to the United States issuing a retaliation threat, stating that any measures unjustly taken against captured American soldiers would lead to reprisals by the United States on captured German troops who wielded flamethrowers and serrated bayonets. However, Tom Laemlein, in his article entitled The Trouble with Trench Guns noted that "there are no photos [online or not] of trench guns in combat [during World War I]. None." He believed that in spite of retaliation threats, the American Expeditionary Forces (AEF) ordered that photos of trench guns in combat be censored, and ultimately eliminated to prevent leaking among the press that would give Germany a reason to portray U.S. troops as "undisciplined and barbaric" and "incapable of using proper rifles." Another reason is that there were also seemingly concerns by General John J. Pershing and his staff that French and British commanders might exert control of American forces over public relations with the combat use of trench guns, as America was considered a junior partner among the Entente Powers. Laemlein concluded that "[t]he trench guns would remain in France and continue to do their deadly, effective work, but there would simply be no photographs allowed to document it."

Other uses
After the war, a shorter-barrelled version of the Model 1897 was marketed by Winchester as a riot gun. Messengers of The American Express Company were armed with this weapon as were various police departments throughout the US. The differences between this riot version and the trench version were that the riot version lacked the heat shield and bayonet lug, and all trench guns were equipped with sling swivels, whereas most riot guns were not.

Users

 * Canada : RCN Beach Commandos, and other RCN boarding parties in WWII
 * 🇮🇪 Ireland: 698 reported in service in late 1940
 * 🇵🇭 Philippines
 * 🇰🇷 South Korea: used by UDT/SEAL
 * 🇺🇸 United States:
 * US Armed Forces
 * Texas Rangers
 * Detroit Police Department
 * Illinois State Police
 * U.S. Border Patrol
 * 🇬🇧 United Kingdom: used by the Royal Irish Constabulary

title: Winchester Model 1897


text:
Mozilla Sunbird

Mozilla Sunbird is a discontinued free and open-source, cross-platform calendar application that was developed by the Mozilla Foundation, Sun Microsystems and many volunteers. Mozilla Sunbird was described as "a cross platform standalone calendar application based on Mozilla's XUL user interface language". Announced in July 2003, Sunbird was a standalone version of the Mozilla Calendar Project.

It was developed as a standalone version of the Lightning calendar and scheduling extension for the Mozilla Thunderbird and SeaMonkey mail clients. Development of Sunbird was ended with release 1.0 beta 1 to focus on development of Mozilla Lightning. The latest development version of Sunbird remains 1.0b1 from January 2010, and no later version has been announced. Unlike Lightning, Sunbird no longer receives updates to its time zone database.

Sun contributions
Sun Microsystems contributed significantly to the Lightning extension project to provide users with a free and open-source alternative to Microsoft Office by combining OpenOffice.org and Thunderbird/Lightning. Sun's key focus areas in addition to general bug fixing were calendar views, team/collaboration features and support for the Sun Java System Calendar Server. Since both projects share the same code base, any contribution to one is a direct contribution to the other.

Trademark issues and Iceowl
Although it is released under a MPL, MPL/GPL/LGPL tri-license, there are trademark restrictions in place on Mozilla Sunbird which prevent the distribution of modified versions with the Mozilla branding.

As a result, the Debian project created Iceowl, a virtually identical version without the branding restrictions.

title: Mozilla Sunbird


text:
Talk:Cú Chulainn

Old edits
Cúchulain is exclusively in Irish mythology; the story about the tales of Cu being lost is a tale, that may or may not be accurate. The central ms. is Lebor na hUidre, in English, the Book of the Dun Cow, largely because that version of the Tain is the oldest recension. There is no Book of the Dun Crow. Honest. I wouldn't kid you about that. DigitalMedievalist 01:08, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC) Lisa

 * Cúchulainn also shows up in the homogenous (same-originating - not sure if I used the word right) Gaelic mythology of Scotland.--172.175.236.253 17:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are there any dates regarding when Cúchulainn was supposed to have lived?

Well there are Estimates. It was most likely some time before 1AD, as the Chariot was still a major Weapon in use, and because in the Stories Cúchulainn goes to Britain, but there is no mention of the Romans. So I would think it must be set before the Roman invasion of Britain at least, and perhaps much earlier, before the Roman Empire existed at all. I'd guess the Cúchulainn Legend could be set any time between say 500BC and 1AD. As to whether he actually ever really lived at all, well that's a different discussion. Hibernain

 * Internal evidence from the stories (his uncle Conchobar mac Nessa is claimed to have been a contemporary of Christ) put the stories in the early 1st century. A few notices in Irish Annals put them in the 1st century BC. Emain Macha was not a residential site post 95 BC (when the 40 metre structure was built and burnt down to create a ritual site). The culture of the stories is essentially Iron Age, but the Iron Age in Ireland continued pretty much until Christianity arrived in the 5th century. The lack of mention of the Romans isn't really a factor, as I don't think the Roman occupation of Britain is mentioned at all in Irish traditional history or mythology. All of which adds up to: your guess is as good as anybody's. --Nicknack009 15:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

True enough, however mentions of characters in relation to the birth of Christ does sound allot like Later Priestly interferences to me, which would make me fairly suspicious of such dates. I would still tend to think of it as pre 1AD, but I suppose that's just my opinion. Hibernain

There are conflicting accounts of who fathered Cuchulainn. In the Tain Lugh claims Cuchulainn as his son, but the The Birth of Cuchulainn says that Dechtine miscarried Lugh's child and that Cuchulainn was the son of Sualdam. Is there more definitive information on this? Celsiana

 * No, not really, and even manuscripts of the Tain contradict themselves. I think it's best to just talk about the conflicting stories.--Cuchullain 19:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Should C%C3%BAchullain redirect to this article? It seems very similar although it seems talks about him being Scottish more, but it's not as if you have seperate articles for Bacchus and Dionysus --86.130.159.44 16:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 * yes it should. Merge tags added jnestorius(talk) 17:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. I don't know much about the Scottish traditions about him, but they are derivative of the (much older) Irish ones and as far as I know don't portray him significantly differently. I'd also prefer the spelling "Cú Chulainn" as it seems preferred by most current scholars writing on the subject. --Nicknack009 17:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I've gone ahead and done the merge. There didn't seem to be anything in the article that came from Scottish folklore, anyway - it all seemed to come from summaries of the Irish stories. I've expanded the bit about Aífe and added a bit about folklore in the introduction. --Nicknack009 17:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Sétanta
There has been loads of edits done to change the part explaining the pronunciation of Cúchulainn’s name, Sétanta (pronounced as say-tan-ta). Some editors have put in different pronunciations like, shay-dan-ta, is there any clear definition of the pronunciation, I mean I always though it was se-tan-ta, but what do I know? --Hibernian 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * It's "shay-dan-ta". S in Irish is always pronounced sh before i or e, and intervocalic t in Old Irish was pronounced d. --Nicknack009 23:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * "S in Irish is always pronounced sh before i or e"... Certainly not always in modern Irish, and not in this case. I have never heard "shay-dan-ta", nor have I seen the síneadh fada on the e before. I would be with Hibernian on this one Stevecull 14:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Well I'll admit that I know very little about the particular pronunciations in Irish, but what I do know is that I've never hear "Sétanta" being pronounced "shay-dan-ta", every time I've heard it pronounced it was either "Se-tan-ta" or "say-tan-ta". Think of that GAA guy Setanta Ó hAilpín, no-one has ever called him "shay-dan-ta Ó hAilpín". Now I don't know whether Se-tan-ta is the correct pronunciation, but I think it's the most widely used. --Hibernian 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've never heard the word pronounced at all, but yes, certainly in modern Irish, s is always pronounced "sh" before i or e. I don't know of a single exception. —Angr 13:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps we should just not present a pronunciation? Just have "Sétanta" and let the reader pronounce it in whichever way they normally do. Besides it's currently not even in Wikipedia's standard way of presenting preconceptions, that is, by using IPA lettering. All I know is the most commonly used pronunciation (and the only one I've ever heard) is "Se-tan-ta". --Hibernian 16:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What it comes down to is that there are two pronunciations: the historically accurate Old Irish one, and the one most commonly used by English speakers. The first was in all likelihood or something close to it, and the second is apparently  (if I read your transcription "Se-tan-ta" correctly). —Angr 16:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard "shay-tan-ta", but I don't think that there's a "standard" pronunciation for it.Celsiana 02:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok, I was just talking about this a few days ago with some friends of mine who speak Irish Fluently and they all agreed and assured me once again that it is pronounced Se-tan-ta (or some slight variations of that). So I've gone ahead and removed the shay-dan-ta pronunciation, I think we just shouldn't have any pronunciation at-all, it's unnecessary and contentious. --Hibernian 05:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In my copy of Thomas Kinsella's translation of the Tain Bo Cuailnge I have a list of Kinsella's own 'sugested pronunciations' and he goes with shay-dan-da.... just throwing that out there. Fergus mac Róich 23:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I speak Irish and did my degree in it. In Old Irish it was most likely Shay-dan-da just as Kinsella suggests. I don't think that the modern pronuciation by English speakers is relevent to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 11:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Popular Culture
I note that the books of Gregory Frost, The Tain, and Remscela are not listed. Even more notable is the wonderful album by the Irish band Horslips, Tain. I find it hard to credit that these items were left out. xponentrob@comcast.net 98.197.36.62 03:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XII
Hey, I don't know how relevant this is, but many pages like this have a "Cuchulainn in popular culture" type part, and I actually just looked this up because Final Fantasy 12 has an Esper named Cuchulainn and I was going crazy because I was *SURE* I knew that name from somewhere! Just thought I'd mention and see if anyone thought it would be appropriate.... Arianna 04:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Being a fan of the "Final Fantasy" games I was excited to hear that they may have put Cuchulain in the new game. It makes sense that they might put him in a game, afterall they pull alot of their "summons" (or espers as they are called in this particular game) from different world legends and mythologys.  For example Odin, Leviathan, and Bahamut.  I quickly looked this up because I thought that maybe if it was true I might acquire a picture of him in the game to put on the page.  I quickly found out that this so called Cuchulain is actually spelled in the game Cuchulaim.  And rather than being the great hero of legend is a giant green poisonous blob monster thing.  So I can safely say that this deserves no mention in the article.  And the only connection it has is a similarity in names. Ultratone85 06:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

 * As I'd mentioned before the "Esper" Cúchulainn, has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish mythical hero. I'd have no problem with the inclusion of this if the character was even remotely based on the myth (other than having the same name).  I notice that somebody has added him back into the article page.  Take a look at the Final Fantasy Wiki page for this esper if want to see for yourself just how unrelated it is, http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C%C3%BAchulainn  Ultratone85 20:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The number one pop culture reference I know of would be that he appears in Fate/stay night as Lancer. I'm not sure whether that merits a mention in this article, though. -- grm_wnr Esc  10:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I am new to this, so I am not sure of the formalities, but I just thought I would mention that the opening song of the popular movie "Boondock Saints" is entitled "The Blood of Cuchulainn".64.247.80.69 01:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There's also Cu Chulainn in the Atlus series, Shin Megami Tensei (and spin-offs) series. He's a demon there, and in some of the games you can fight him, and the others he is mutated from Setanta. Does this game count for popular culture? Aoritsuki 07:18, 05 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd like to add that Cu Chulainn appears in Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 as a Persona, whom you can create with a Triangle Fusion. He has long, straight black hair and is clad in white armour with black designs, and has a cape and loincloth, as well as his trademark lance. Mukino 01:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to add the "Cú Chulainn the Awakened" Yu-Gi-Oh card. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn_the_Awakened and http://duellinks.gamea.co/c/hhd8i40h 143.129.70.61 (talk) 13:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg
Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Emer's only jealousy -- source?
What is the source for this section? I know the story only from Yeats' play and had thought that it was his own elaboration of the myth. It would be nice to get a cite, as the stories are so various. And if it's a modern literary invention it should be marked as such Dybryd 10:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Split the article
The trivia and pop culture section of the articles is now very long and probably needs to be placed into its own new article, called Cúchulainn in popular culture or something like that (in the same vein as many other similar articles). So does anyone want to create it? Opinions? --Hibernian 01:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Such an article would be immediately nominated for deletion. The fact is, there are a bunch of utterly trivial references there, and they need to go. Simply sues of the name or obvious, inconsequential references don't bear mentioning anywhere but in the article for the work. --Eyrian 02:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg
Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Ummm... It does too have a rationale for this article, Mr. Bot. Wrad 01:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Cúchulainn
What is with the audio pronunciation? Is it Ulster dialect?

Yes I have to agree - it's a long way from what we would say in Munster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.153.207 (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's Ulster dialect - I think it's just wrong. It pronounces both 'u's as long, but only the first one should be. --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In Irish a fada on a syllable makes it long. Only the first u contains a fada and so only the first u can be long. It is possible his name was originally spelt using the totally diferent letters and markings of old irish 6th to 10th centuries ad, primitive irish 4th to 6th centuries ad or even earlier versions of ogham or celtic. Ogham is a writing system that was one of the world's few writing systems which rose independently. Above it is written using the letters and markings of modern Irish and until somebody has researched the older languages we can only make the first u long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colmno3 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I've added a new pronunciation which I think is more accurate, and distingushes the different 'u' sounds. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a bit odd IPA-wise, according to the sound [u:] should be [y] and [x] should be something like [ç], or are my ears confused? Evpok (talk) 00:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * ipa /Ku:χulənʲ/ the "ch" should be pronounced as an unpalatalized voiceless uvular fricative. This is how it would be pronounced in Old Irish. TheBookishOne (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Demi-God
Correct my memory but I thought Lugh or someone was cuchulainn's Dad. At least in tories I heard...JackorKnave (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe that is correct, Lugh is his father.

"Ancient Gaelic Literature"
Three points:

 * 1) What does the phrase "ancient Gaelic literature" add that isn't already expressed in "Irish mythological" and "Ulster Cycle"? Nothing whatsoever. It's just verbiage.
 * 2) Another encyclopedia is not a valid cite.
 * 3) It's inaccurate anyway. The literature is not ancient, it's medieval.

The phrase is pointless, redundant and wrong. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Nicknack is correct on all three points. And considering that the literature is not ancient, I doubt that Britannica says it is, so I'd imagine it's misinterpreting the source anyway.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, if an outsider researching the subject tried to gain an understanding and hence came across the Wiki article, nowhere within the article is there ANY mention of the original manuscripts being of Gaelic origin. A fact is a fact. Secondly regardless of 'Ancient' being used, despite the Ulster cycle having its roots from the 8th century, it does not make the inclusion of that one line "Gaelic literature'- meaningless, devoid, redundant, not valid etc etc. If the very fact is, that the legend of Cu Chulainn comes originally from Gaelic literature, what is the harm in including it within the article if it is not mentioned? especially in what is stated(the inserted 'From Gaelic literature') is ENTIRELY fact and indeed very important. Valid contributions such as the one I made is what Wikipedia is about, there is no point in policing an article without fully understanding the credentials of a valid contribution.Eireabu (talk) 17:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The whole Ulster Cycle, and Irish mythology as well, are "(medieval) Gaelic literature". I don't see what the extra wording does for the article, readers can already click the links.--Cúchullain t/ c 02:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Pop culture references
The section listing pop culture references to Cuchulainn is not appropriate here. See the TRIVIA guideline. An encyclopedia article is not a list of random information, such as Gaelic football teams that are named for Cuchulainn. Moreover, the sections are not sourced to reliable, third party sources and thus their importance to the subject is questionable.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Quite a few references contained within the pop culture section is very much appropiate here. The G.A.A refs for instance is not a simple piece of random information. As for the TRIVIA guideline that too underlines a reason for its inclusion rather than exclusion: QUOTE ''This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all. and QUOTE Trivia sections should not simply be removed from articles. It may be possible to integrate some items into the article text. Some facts may belong in existing sections, while others may warrant a new section.'' This is clearly stated.Eireabu (talk) 19:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * You're picking and choosing lines from the guideline. If the material I removed was "otherwise suitable", meaning important and well-sourced, then you'd have a case. But it is not. As such removal is warranted.--Cúchullain t/ c  19:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Please stop reverting. If you were providing reliable citations for these, and attempting to incorporate them into the article instead of leaving them as a list of trivia, you might have a case. But there's no point in including lots of unverified material of no clear importance.--Cúchullain t/ c 21:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Both of you please stop reverting!

 * I understand the annoyance people have with trivia sections, and to an extent I share it, but blanket deletion of whole sections isn't the way to deal with them. There's a difference between cultural influence and pop culture trivia, and Cú Chulainn has significant cultural influence, particularly in Ireland, which should be recognised. Some of the items you keep removing, Cuchulainn, are cited, and others have their own articles which have, or at least should have, cites there, so they're notable enough to be included here. The GAA stuff is all cited, and Setanta Sports is a significant broadcasting company, so I've written a prose paragraph on sporting references with its own subheading. At least some of the musical references should be salvageable (although a mention in one verse of a song is trivia and should be deleted) so I've commented them out and we can restore them on a case by case basis. I have a bias against computer game references so I'm not touching them, but some people take them very seriously, so I've commented them out as well, and they can be looked at in more detail. Anything that's just a mention of a name I've deleted. Hopefully now we can start discussing what deserves including and what doesn't. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Nicknack, for ensuring that cooler heads prevail. My opinion is that trivia is just that - trivia, and embedded lists should never be used within an article. A bit of that material (that is, the material that is sourced to reliable, third party publications) may belong here, but a trivia list gives no context for my the information is important. The new prose sections you've included are vastly better than what was there before.--Cúchullain t/ c 23:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Lancer reference
Hi.

I was wondering why a reference was kept to Cú Chulainn being in the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy, and being an archetype for Sláine - yet the reference to Lancer in the various Fate/Stay Night-related games, manga and anime has been omitted.

The character plays a significant role in said setting - and is a playable character in games such as Fate/Unlimited Codes - so why is he not listed? --Nerroth (talk) 03:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * There's a whole list of game references that have been commented out for the time being - they're still there if you click the edit button, they just can't be seen in the article - awaiting attention from someone who knows about the subject and can tell the notable references from the trivia. If you have such knowledge, go for it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Okay then, I'll see what I can do. (It's somewhat ironic that there seems to be more stuff available to do with Lancer in shops in Japan than there are to do with Cú Chulainn in your average Irish equivalent...) --Nerroth (talk) 18:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * You'll have to include a reliable source demonstrating that the reference is notable. Otherwise there's nothing to separate it from random trivia.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * How notable does the refrence need to be? I can link to sites where the character is featured (and playable, in the case of Unlimited Codes, Tiger Colosseum and Tiger Colosseum Upper) and refer to the articles already up on Wikipedia for Lancer - but what else would you want to see? --Nerroth (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * To fit the reliable sources guideline they'd need to be reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So no fan pages, and no pages from the developer of the game. Additionally they should be in English but if you can find a reliable third-party source in Japanese that would be fine. You can't just link to other Wikipedia articles as sources but obviously you can use whatever reliable sources they use. The best thing would be some book or article on appearances of Cuchulainn in pop culture; with something like we could distinguish between which of the appearances are notable and which are not.--Cúchullain t/ c 01:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The Ulster crowd were losers
Can we say that? If I recall back in the day the evidence is that the Connacht lads under no less than a woman usually beat these northerners, men who made love to horses (ahem!). Dunlavin Green (talk) 00:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah? And how often does Medb actually win? ;) --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The Hound of Ulster
EoinBach (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2008 (UTC)The current version has "At the age of seventeen he defended Ulster single-handedly against the armies of queen Medb of Connacht in the epic Táin Bó Cúailnge ("the Cattle Raid of Cooley"); for this, he is often referred to as the "Hound of Ulster"." However, he was not, as far I can tell, referred to in that way until fairly recently (and possibly tinged by politics). Cú Uladh (hound of Ulster) is actually a personal name in Irish and wasn't used for Cúchulain. I think that linking it to the Táin is misleading as it seems to suggest that this name was in use in the ancient literature and it wasn't - it is a new and novel use. I don't object to it being included in the article but not where it presently is.

My change has been reverted without any rational or reason to it, other than a personal message asking why I removed it (despite the reasons given above). It is my intention to revert this back and remove the 'Hound of Ulster' as this has no historical basis to it. As I have said above I think it can be incorporated in a separate section, something along the lines of 'modern usage' etc but not in the introduction.

 * Hi, that's fair enough re modern usage and I've inserted three refs for this. But its usage is widespread and of sufficient importance to warrant its remaining in the introduction and not hidden away in the text. I've made clear that it's a common modern reference to Cuchullain. Regards, bigpad (talk) 10:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual?
Acording to LGBT themes in mythology, this character is bisexual? I havn't done any research yet, but tagged it as there is no mention here of any relationsips with the same sex.

Does anyone know where this comes from (even if disputed)?YobMod 13:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Some would interpret Cú Chulainn's relationship with Ferdiad as a sexual one, partly, I think, by analogue with Achilles and Patroclus - but also because there are a few passages that can be interpreted that way. For example, Cú Chulainn at one point says "We were loving friends. We were comrades in the wood. We were men who shared a bed. We would sleep a deep sleep after our weary fights in many strange lands. Together we would ride and range through every wood when we were taught by Scáthach." (O'Rahilly, Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster p. 221). I'm sure a reputable reference can be found for this interpretation of their friendship, and then it can be included in the article. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the info. I'll do some reading and see if i find any reliable sources, and add it to both articles if i do.YobMod 13:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, found it in . Will write something at mythology page first, then see where it best fits here.YobMod 15:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Oh for gods sake, this is another completely ridiculous appeal to modern interpretations of homosexual behavior. The two were foster brothers not gay lovers. This revisionist history/literature bs needs to stop. This is why whenever "literary criticism" is mentioned, the annoyed general population roll their eyes and ask "Who's gay now?" 156.12.190.70 (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I think it is important to understand that ancient notions of sexuality are very different from modern ones, even though for example ancient greek men had sexual relationships together, the social significance of this was vastly different than today, in those times a man could have a man lover and also a wife and kids. It is also important to note a grey area, socrates for example seems very romantically loving of his friends, but to call this "homosexual" or "gay" is to not understand their culture. 2 good friends might kiss on the lips and cuddle, and this was just friendship to them, yet to us we would see it as a "gay relationship." Imagine also, if a man had a wife but kissed and cuddled with his best friend today we would call that "cheating" but then it would be just 2 dudes hanging out! Cuchulainn could not have been bisexual, or gay, or straight, these terms denote modern social constructions that define recent cultural developments. Plato praised homosexuality because he thought it made men better WARRIORS! Exactly the opposite of our army and today's opinion of homosexuality. We must always be aware that when we study history we must define things as they would have seen it rather than using colloquial terms and folk psychology to describe things. TheBookishOne (talk) 00:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Manx and Scottish folklore
A common mistake people make is describing the stories of Setanta as folklore. The majority of the stories were brought to us by translation ancient texts, and from prose/poetry that were learnt off by storytellers in the 17th Century.

The only Cú Chulainn related tales found in Scotland and Manx (before the modern era where books were published) from recitals of work that was learned from WRITTEN sources! Stories of Cú Chulainn cant always be described as a product of FOLKLORE, (in the sense the Fenian saga was, i.e passed down orally from generation to generation) but more as a literary figure. So i've put a citation needed mark, if anyone writes a section clarifying this, great!

All this is dealt with by Dáithí O hÓgáin in his epic work: "Myth,Legend and Romance - an Encyclopaedia of the Irish Folk Tradition (Ryan Publishing: London, 1990 / Prentice Hall: New York, 1991)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by CelticSeimi (talk • contribs) 18:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The pangs of ulster
I've added an explanation of why the men of Ulster cannot fight: It's fundamental to the Tain bo cuailnge part of Cu Chulainn's story on a symbolic level: Cuchulainn is the only real man able to resist the armies lead by a woman. He's the only Ulster hero defending the bull on many fronts, including the symbolic reduction of all other ulster men to women - stripped of their manhood.

As suggested by user Cuchullain (sic.) I've made it shorter as I take the point it shouldn't be too verbose.

And neither should it be removed with the short comment "that level of detail isn't needed".

Jpgcwiki (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your work, Jpgcwiki, I hope you don't take offense to my reverts. I have removed your edits again for a few reasons. First and foremost, the explanation of the pangs of the Ulstermen comes from a separate tale, though it is frequently included in modern versions of the Tain. This alters readings of the role of gender issues significantly. The issue with the level of detail was mostly taken care of by your second edit, but still, it's a lot of information on a story that Cu Chulainn plays a fairly peripheral role in.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

User Cuchulainn: the amount of time you've spent on Wikipedia seems to have made you forget the prime mechanism: A communal knowledge resource based on discussion. I've made a contribution that I've judged useful, which you reverted with little comment. I then took your brief comment on board, and reverted a modified version, together which an explanation of why the point is important.

By instantly reverting all changes and removing my comments on the talk page with no discussion, I lose all interest in contributing. If your kind of behaviour spreads, then Wikipedia will become no more than a list of pages written by amateurs who are incapable of accepting input from others.

However: There's still hope, since this is the first time I've observed behaviour to this degree.

Try and remember: This is not your little empire, it's a collaborative and organically growing resource, which Napoleonic reflexes can only destroy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpgcwiki (talk • contribs) 13:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Jpgcwiki (talk) 13:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I hope that through my moving your comments to the proper place, that I have responded, and am not trying to be rude or assert authority over the page. Cheers,--Cúchullain t/ c 13:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Cuchulainn, thanks for the response. In future

a) I should look down the talk page before jumping to conclusions b) You might consider using the discussion page before reverting changes too quickly.

I might have over-reacted, but I was not happy that a considered approach seemed met by a brick wall. I maintain that the pangs of Ulster are important in the detail that I gave them, for the reasons I gave. They are in the earliest two tain mss. and not "added at a later date". But I won't push the point.

Jpgcwiki (talk) 07:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm very sorry for the confusion. What I meant was, the Macha story is a separate tale from the Tain, and one that doesn't involve the subject of this article, Cu Chulainn. Any relevant interpretation of the gender roles requires reading the two stories together – which is how they are often presented in modern English translations, but is not the case in the Lebor na hUidre, for example. Since they don't involve Cu Chulainn, the Macha story is better dealt with at the Tain article.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Cú Chulainn
I think this section could use some minor work. The way the page is set up currently, there are only a few extremely limited cases of "Cultural depictions of Cú Chulainn", while the article used to list many more. These additional references have apparently been moved to the "Irish mythology in popular culture" section, but there is no mention of this in the "Cultural depictions" section, and furthermore, the "Irish mythology..." section is separate altogether and somewhat nonlinear due to the statue picture to the left. I believe this should be changed to either make clear the fact that there is another section showing the bulk of the "cultural depictions", or to just include the references in this article and link to "Irish mythology..." for those interested in cultural references to Irish mythological figures in general. Thoughts? Debollweevil (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2009 (UTC) The only thing wrong with the article is it's failure to mention the possible Christian influence on the transcriptions written on Cú Chulainn, this is especially strange when the book sighted in the third footnote does.

Conchulainn
I've removed User:the Man in Question's edit that Cú Chulainn is "also called Conchulainn", even though it's cited, because it's a misunderstanding of the cite. Conchulainn is the genitive case of Cúchulainn, and appears in titles like Siaburcharpat Conculaind, meaning "the phantom chariot of Cúchulainn". It's the equivalent of starting an article "Joe Smith, also known as Joe Smith's". --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:30, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

- Conchulainn = Colmcille --

A few more reversions
I've removed (a) the supposed Middle Irish spelling "Cú Culaind" - you will occasionally find it spelled like that, but "Cú Chulaind" is more usual as Old and Middle Irish usually marked lentition of the letter c, and "Cú Chulainn" is also a Middle Irish spelling; (b) the video game references, which belong in Irish mythology in popular culture; and (c) the proposed Michael Fassbender film, because as yet you couldn't even call it "in development", let alone "in production" - the number of films at this stage that actually get made is tiny. Wait til there's more to report than an actor and a screenwriter expressing an aspiration to make a film. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

== - Conchulainn = Colmcille -- ==

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Cú Chulainn. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050610073737/http://www.ncf.carleton.ca:80/~dc920/bricriu.html to http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~dc920/bricriu.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Cú Chulainn. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120423092221/http://www.armagh.co.uk/visit_armagh/files/dd/dd8a5803-62b2-405b-9941-7b61f0281448.pdf to http://www.armagh.co.uk/visit_armagh/files/dd/dd8a5803-62b2-405b-9941-7b61f0281448.pdf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~dc920/bricriu.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Transgender discussion
Came across this discussion and thought id share it. Im not familiar with the tale of Cu Chulainn but maybe it's worth looking at. Finnlongman's dissertation isnt published yet but should be soon and I think itll be worth looking at. As I said Im not familiar with this tale but I feel like the subject of queerness in historical settings and stories is extremely ignored (intentionally or not). Cisgender heterosexual men raised in societies that are not open about this subject have for the most part been the scholars and historians analysing these stories and its their interpretations we've read. So I think its important to listen to the younger more open minded generation. They have fresh perspectives and can see things which may have been missed before. 71.63.156.179 (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

 * Just thought I'd provide an update (though I'm not the original user who brought this up) to state that said article by Finn Longman has been published now, as ‘“What manner of man is this Hound?”: Gender, Humanity and the Transgressive Figure of Cú Chulainn' in Proceedings of the Association of Celtic Students of Ireland and Britain VIII and IX (2023). It is also available on their website, at https://finnlongman.com/research/. AspieSamKing (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Possibly lovers with Ferdiad is an established and common theory, stop edit-warring
This is not a new or obscure theory. Though, obviously, some are not pleased with it. The theory is certainly common enough that it deserves to be included. Stop the edit-warring. I would advise additional sourcing be added, because plenty of scholars have certainly mentioned it. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:33, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Claim his name was Sétanta; wasn’t it Séadanta?
Sétanta doesn’t sound right. Wasn’t he Séadanta with or without a fada. Frenchmalawi (talk) 08:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 * Séadanta looks like an attempt to update Sétanta to modern Irish spelling. The stories were written on Old and Middle Irish, and translations and scholarship generally follow the Old/Middle Irish spellings. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nicknack009, why did you mention translations? Obviously I haven’t asked about translations. Sétanta isn’t a translation. There is no fada in English language. Are you saying that there is an old written document in Irish language where ‘Sétanta’ is used? Can you identify that document? Frenchmalawi (talk) 14:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 * Yes. That's the spelling used in Lebor na hUidre and the Book of Leinster, the oldest and most important relevant manuscripts. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Esoteric Birth Story
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the birth section is just written really strangely? It's very clunky and hard to parse through, and a lot of details seem to have almost no meaning or correlation-- the two colts born to the mare are never explained as birth gifts to Sétanta, and it generally reads like a stream-of-consciousness rendition of his birth.

I wouldn't really know where to start editing it, or if other people deem it worthy of being edited. It may just be me too-- I'm willing to acknowledge I'm reading things pretty poorly, but this section just feels overly dense IMO.

The articles on Deichtine and Súaltam already have some better, albeit more brief versions of Cú Chulainn's birth story, that feel way less dense. FenrirSkin (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cú Chulainn


text:
Talk:Hi-NRG

Untitled
please name artists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.17.64.90 (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2004 (UTC)

Donna Summer
Donna Summer used the "Hi-NRG" term in 1978 during an interview to describe the success of the hit "I Feel Love". VH1 UK and VH1 European shows frequanly this interview on various "Disco Night" Specials. She say on the interview something like "This song has a Higher energy vibe".

The "Terminology" section references this interview, but gives the date of "1963" for some reason, which I assume is a mistake. I assume it should be "1978" as mentioned above, but I do not have access to the source to know for sure. Garmorley (talk) 10:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Invitation to cite and weigh in on the issue of the etymology of the term "Hi-NRG," and its evolution from "High Energy" and "Hi-Energy" during the early- and mid-1980s
I've asked this elsewhere and can't seem to get an authoritative answer. Is this verifiable, citable, that the phrase Hi-NRG was coined AFTER the Evelyn Thomas single, "High Energy"? Or was it the other way around, the song ingeniously capitalizing on the name of the genre at the moment of its greatest prominence? Didn't that single come out in 1984, when the article states the genre was already crossing over into the mainstream? I seem to remember the phrase pre-existing the song but being shortened at the time of the song's popularity so as not to confuse the genre with one of its signature songs. I don't wish to change the article on the basis of my recollection, but I would love to know if this is more than a popular misconception, and has a basis in fact. Is there a generally accepted first usage? Thanks. Abrazame 08:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I second that emotion. I too seem to remember the term prefiguring the (very fine) record. Jigsawpuzzleman 13:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the corroboration! I too love the record, but think the attribution - despite being commonly held and often repeated - is an example of legend and not fact.  Anyone want to weigh in and provide examples and sources one way or another before this is changed?  The legend certainly bears mentioning, particularly as if it isn't, chances are someone will come along and add or revert it.  It would be better if we could track down the actual earlier usages to cite, rather than simply remove or refute the claim.  The problem is that there is a dearth of comprehensive, authoritative material on the web from that time of dance music in general, and the Hi-NRG genre in particular.  Anybody have some old dance music magazines lying around?  Abrazame 03:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Billboard magazine used "hi-nrg" before the Thomas single. See their dance music column from that era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.191.36.30 (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong statements about its meaning.
Having been there and right in the middle of it (the DJ dance scene in The Netherlands - and Amsterdam) back in the day I can assure you that the term High Energy was purely (and almost entirely) based on its speed, the amount of Beats Per Minute (BPM), which at the time was one of the most important numbers for DJ's to work with. It was considered High Energy *because* of the higher tempo, and soon (during the course of the year 1983) became the deciding factor for its genre-fit. At the time the barrier was around 127 BPM. Any disco-record faster than that could fit the genre. If it was 126 BPM or below it *definitely* wasn't called High Energy music, ever. DJ's (and their magazines) were very strict about it back then. So I'm kind of annoyed to see so many producers now being marked as "Hi NRG producer" on wikipedia (while they might only have been for a couple of rare uptempo releases), even favored over just "disco", "club" or "dance music" producer. Seems to me the gay community is trying to take over wikipedia in a somewhat destructive manner these days. They weren't creating music for the 'gay community', and so it wasn't "Hi NRG" music because of that, it was just disco at the time. Try not to make every record a "gay-community success", please. Their main audience was hetero-sexual at the time. 195.64.95.116 20:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Although many of the tracks had their origins as mainstream Euro-pop hits on the Continent, HiNRG was in North America and Britain extremely closely associated with gay clubs (an early alternative name was 'Boystown disco'...enough said). In the UK HiNRG was popular in straight clubs in Scotland but elsewhere in the UK it was exclusively played in gay clubs...until, of course, Stock Aitken and Waterman sent it into the mainstream. Coming from Amsterdam you clearly don't see the genre as 'gay' but the reality is in the English-speaking world it very much was, which has nothing to do with any destructive 'gay agenda' you perceive. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 19:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * hi nrg as a gay music are electronic disco songs from 1980s, however there is non-sexual "version" of Hi-NRG and it are all uptempo songs with synth octave basslines. Article is somewhat wrong about "gay popularity". ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Dead Or Alive - You Spin Me Round (Like A Record) excerpt.ogg
The image Image:Dead Or Alive - You Spin Me Round (Like A Record) excerpt.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --21:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorting out
I've just been trawling through this nightmare of an article (which has been tagged for four different reasons) and done a complete overhaul. I've left in the relevant facts and removed information that was written twice and most of the details on other genres which already have their own pages. Then onto the lists, sorting through the artists names went on forever to see who did and who didn't have a page (in other words, if they don't have a page, they're obviously not notable enough to be included). The random list of singles I removed but kept the number ones list - so that can be added to. Also the record labels since almost none of them were notable. In doing all this I've removed three of the notice tags as the article should be a lot better and more coherent now. All you need is more references and as I say, more No.1 hi-NRG singles (or at least, notable singles).--Tuzapicabit (talk) 00:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

New Order
I deleted them from the list of HiNRG artists (a fairly incredible claim). They were influenced by the genre most notably on 'Blue Monday' but that's as far as it went. See their wikipedia entry for the correct genres. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

they a remix of songs in the hi energy vain in 1996....butit was just to cash in on the Techno craze....I think they were bad in debt and needed money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 18:01, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

BS Article
Again!!!!!! people trying to find something to write for wikipedia to make up their genere appear legitimate. What is spoken about, was never spoken about or ddi not even seem to exist... in the 80's it was just a part of regular new wave.

Like get a life and learn to put history and culture into context...Dead or Alive was just dance or new wave.

Oh my gawd...like someone is trying to say...Shannon ...of "let the music play" was hi energy. Are these terms mow applying to in retrospect....Again simple basic dance music...we actually called all music music like this funk, until house/ hip-hop/rap became a general use word. - The high energy dance beats that people now refer to came experimental and industrial music...I know must of you hate to realize that. It actually came out industrial bands from the mid 80's. Many of the earlier people who made what became Techo, were the same people people who made experimental music.. All that happened was that the mainstream opened up a bit more to these types of music — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 17:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Utter, complete bollocks. Dead or Alive were near-unanimously described as Hi-NRG by the contemporary British music press, though Burns preferred they just say Disco. Zilch to do with 'New Wave', despite Burns' past involvement in the Liverpool New Wave scene of the late 70s. Jinglyjangle (talk) 04:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Evolution of high energy disco music to Hi-NRG
A good article. I have brought the dates into line with the facts described in the article - from the high energy disco sounds of the late 1970s to the emergence and naming of Hi-NRG, a distinct popular music genre, in the early 1980s.

( ~ ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etheldavis (talk • contribs) 23:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Evolution of high energy to Hi-NRG in the late 1970s to early 1980s
A good article. I have brought the dates into line with the facts described in the article - from the high energy disco sounds of the late 1970s to the emergence and naming of Hi-NRG, a distinct popular music genre, in the early 1980s.

(Etheldavis (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2015 (UTC))

BS Article indeed - attention, moderators
Completely agree with the entry "BS Article". Retroactively made-up "genre" seemingly to promote unknown artist of the days. Especially the claims about this made-up scene influencing techno music are unfounded and laughable, for the following reasons: 1. no sources named 2. no artist claims introduced (at least not from anyone known outside of their neighborhood) 3. references are missing and wrong. For example, the allmusic guide link does not contain any page on "Hi NRG". 4. article lacks substance but is full of unfounded claims

Wikipedia moderators: this article should be either deleted or worked into New Wave. Genres and exampled named are more properly discussed under New Wave. The rest of the article is highly disputable and is full of false statements. Let's not try to reinvent New Wave and change history on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.252.202.26 (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

 * I'm quite late and there's probably no point replying to this, but just wanted to say you're out of mind. Hi-NRG was absolutely a real genre in the 80s, and it had zero to do with 'New Wave'. Essentially, it was gay disco music made by the likes of Dead or Alive, Pet Shop Boys, etc. There are plenty of interviews with people like Neil Tennant, from the 80s, talking about how inspired they were by the hi-NRG disco of Bobby O and other leading disco producers. Record Mirror even published a Hi-NRG and Eurobeat chart back in the day. 'New Wave', on the other hand, was a dead term in the 80s, unused by British music journalists except to refer to the late 70s New Wave era of Elvis Costello, The Jam, etc. Neil Tennant himself, back in the 80s, used to talk about how he went from a Clash and Elvis Costello listening 'New Wave snob' to an 80s disco fanatic (and frontman) thanks to the timely intervention of Chris Lowe. Jinglyjangle (talk) 04:31, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hi-NRG


text:
User talk:Red Goat Jackson

Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your note on the new user log.

If you need editing help, visit How does one edit a page. For format questions, visit our manual of style

When you're posting to talk pages, you can sign your username with three tildes or sign your user name and a timestamp with four tildes ( ~ ).

Some time when you're bored, you can read through our policies and guidelines. If you made any edits before you got an account, you might be interested in assigning those to your username.

If you have any other questions about the project then check out Help or add a question to the Village pump. You can also drop me a question on my talk page.

Happy editing, Isomorphic 01:17, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Red Goat Jackson