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Talk:Hepatocellular carcinoma

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Copper
In hepatocellular carcinoma, there is high level of serum copper and copper to zinc ratio as the serum zinc level is low.Is this interesting to measure the serum copper and zinc level?

 * Firstly, what is your source. Secondly, what would the cause be. Thirdly, are you now going to give penicillamine or zinc if there is otherwise no clinical need (e.g. neurological symptoms) to do so? JFW | T@lk  07:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Liver cancer
Since liver cancer is not synonym for hepatocellular carcinoma, I turned liver cancer, which was previously a redirect to here, to a disambiguation page. --Steven Fruitsmaak 12:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, I think the translations should be different, not translating "liver cancer" but "hepatocellular carcinoma". --Steven Fruitsmaak 17:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

HCC
Please redirect from HCC.

Hepatoma
>(an alternative name may be hepatoma) This was originally mentioned after the name. However, hepatomas are generally benign and harmless, which cannot be said about HCC Jfdwolff 00:05, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hepatoma is an old name for primary hepatocellular carcinoma. [Yes, it's a misnomer.] Axl 18:18, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * So hepatoma should be a disambiguation. JFW | T@lk  21:00, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Eh? With respect, I think that you made a mistake. Hepatoma = hepatocellular carcinoma. Axl 12:14, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

So what do you call benign liver neoplasms, if not hepatoma? JFW | T@lk  16:04, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I call them benign liver tumours/cysts/adenomas. Axl 09:54, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good, it must be my training abroad that's leading to the confusion :-) JFW | T@lk  21:11, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hehe! :-) It is exactly this sort of confusion that caused the word (hepatoma) to fall into disuse. It doesn't comply with the general rule that solid epithelium-derived cancers should be designated 'carcinoma'. Axl 21:28, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

it is called HepatoCellular Carcinoma means malignant tumor of epithelial tissue (liver spicificlly) but hepatoma means a benign tumor of hepatocytes!!!

Some Questions
Is Aspergillus responsible for a "unique" type of HCC ? I wasn't aware of there being a big difference between the two forms, and also leaves us with the problem of what to do with those who have both Hep B and Aflatoxin (e.g. in West Africa) MattW 12:35, 26 July, 2005

 * Aflatoxin is a carcinogen; as the liver filters out most toxins, it has a habit of building up in the liver. As it still affects hepatocytes, I don't think there should be much of a difference between a HCC caused by aflatoxin, Hep B, alcohol or simply bad luck.Serrin 11:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this interesting to measure serum copper and Cu/Zn ratio in HCC?

Reverts
Dear Jfdwolff -- I think we need to revise the treatment section, or perhaps add a research heading, where we could link to clinical trials and current research -- the reason is that this may help patients -- What do you think? Anita Brenner

 * I agree, but please adhere to the manual of style. JFW | T@lk  06:29, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

JFW: Your reverts eliminated my references to screening tests, Dr. So's genetics research, even reference sites for patients and this week's ASCO abstracts.

I see by the history that you have reverted every time some one wanders in and posts a new link. All the links I have seen in the history, the ones that you erase, appear to be valid resources.

You describe yourself as a physician, so I don't understand why you want to deprive patients of full access to the vast array of online resources, particularly when they may be of more benefit than the outdated summary you keep reverting to.

What's the problem?

Anita Brenner

 * Anita, please don't be insulted by something so minor, and try not to attack me without hearing me out. As you have recently joined you have not yet have seen how some articles are continuously "updated" by people wanting every detail mentioned of the most obscure research, theories and sometimes worse.
 * Wikipedia does not need external links. What Wikipedia needs is a well-written clear outline, not just of frontline research but of basic principles such as staging, histology and prognosis. Readers are much more helped by the conclusions of a recent review paper than by a deluge of links.
 * I hope this explains my "record" of removing added links. Please cooperate - I think this article needs a lot of work and it has a lot of worldwide implications (its highest incidence being in Southeast Asia). JFW | T@lk  12:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

What Wikipedia needs is a well-written clear outline, not just of frontline research but of basic principles such as staging, histology and prognosis. That's very nice: are you actually going to do this or just remove anyone else's contributions? And since you've set yourself up as a veteran here, perhaps you ought to reacquaint yourself with Don't bite the newcomers and lose the supercilious attitude. --Calton | Talk 14:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, you've posted it here and on my talkpage? My response was intended to be constructive, so please do not make it sound differently. I'm honestly interested in Anita's expertise, and I don't think she needs you to come to her defense. JFW | T@lk  15:14, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Dear Calton, thank you for sticking up for me. I appreciate it.
 * This is long, but since it is my last post on Wikipedia, please bear with me.
 * Calton is correct, . I am not the first newcomer to attempt to contribute to this page, to try to bring it current, but, as the history of this and other page suggests,  Jfdwolff, is brutal to newcomers.
 * Wikipedia had the opportunity to clear up a confusing area for people who are diagnosed with HCC. When I came upon this page, Jfdwolff had spent more time on political statements (he seems not to like the USA very much) than he did on current treatments and research. So in good faith, I thought I would make a contribution. But Jfdwolff kept reverting everything.
 * Because Jfdwolff chases away newcomers and automatically reverts most revisions, this page, in particular, is out of date.
 * Thanks to Calton, Jfdwolff has finally, kicking and screaming, grudgingly kept a few of the links that I contributed.
 * However, Jfdwolff has marginalized some of the links by relegating them to a special section.  For example, Jfdwolff mischaracterizes the Wilson site as mere "patients' links."   Unlike Jfdwolff, the Wilsons have raised money to publish a  handbook for HCC patients.  That booklet was  written and approved by phyisicians on their board. Their booklet is more current and better written than anything jfdwolff has written here.
 * Jfdwolff did the same with my search engine at liver.andrewtorres.org. liver.andrewtorres.orgis not a "patients" site. liver.andrewtorres.org is a search engine that allows patient to keep current on clinical trials, the results of clinical trials, recent literature and emerging drugs.
 * Why did I write that page and why did I take the time to share all these resources here? Because the doubling time of HCC is 1-3 months and bioinformatics is essential. Patients and their physician need quick access to the latest research abstracts from ASCO, journal abstracts from Pubmed, clinical trial results. They also need to know what drugs are in the pipeline and how approved drugs can be used off-label.
 * But, life is too short to waste time where one is not wanted. Jfdwolff, I prefer to spend my time raising money for cancer research, and supporting the fine physicians and patients at the forefront of this disease. Some day Cancer will be a disease of the past.
 * And yes, JfdWolff, I do object to your citation to the Brazilian Journal of Medical Biology as a background review. The NIH, MD Anderson, NCI and ASCO sites are far better for background information. But they don't fit in to your political world view.

Ciao, JfdWolff, You win.

17 May 2005 Anita Brenner

Background review
Does anyone object against this article (Franca AV, Elias Junior J, Lima BL, Martinelli AL, Carrilho FJ. Diagnosis, staging and treatment of hepatocellular carcinoma. Braz J Med Biol Res 2004;37:1689-705. ) as a background review? JFW | T@lk  15:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Restoration of content
I found a lot of content removed in this edit, by an anon with one edit. I've restored the lost content, but there have been some minor changes made since then that are now lost. I think this is the proper action, but if anyone disagrees, let me know. --Arcadian 01:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Epidemiology
Incidence in Europe and USA JFW |  T@lk  07:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

 * MRI is the best for diagnosis: JFW |  T@lk  11:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Comparison of staging systems: JFW |  T@lk  01:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

JfdWolff
Anybody who does not know that hepatoma is the same as hepatocellular carcinoma should NOT contribute to this article !!!81.244.197.160 (talk) 20:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Can you expand, I am a bit confused, I certainly don't know the difference and am a contributor to this article but we want a really good article so clarifying your comment would be really helpful. Thankis SqueakBox 20:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

 * This relates to my above message from 2004. At that time I had undergone most of my training in a country where the term "hepatoma" is not routinely used, and I therefore acted on the understanding that anything called "-oma" must be benign. I stand corrected. I'm unsure why 81.244.197.160 seems to be so upset with me about this. The user has no other edits, and I can't remember ruffling any feathers in that IP range. JFW | T@lk  11:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Epidemiology
Study that lacks solid conclusions (from abstract at least) about HCC in the USA. Risk is higher in particular ethnic groups, which probably reflects the fact that they have risk factors. JFW | T@lk  11:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Epidermal growth factors
Just curious, but why haven't epidermal growth factors been mentioned in this article? I recently read an article in JAMA (DOI 10.1001/jama.2007.65) of relationship between a single nucleotide polymorphism on the EGF gene and the risk for developing HCC in patients with cirrhosis. Another article (PMID 7862454) from 1995 determined that the overexpression of secreted EGF fusion protein led to the development of HCC in transgenic mice. I think this new research is worth mentioning in the "Future directions" section of the article. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

GA review
Needs extensive work to add inline references and reorganization to fulfill GA criteria. The treatment section is currently just a bunch of bullet points. Needs to be wikified. No verification for the people who had this condition. Could also do with a expanded classification section.-- Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Treatment
Considering that this page is likely to be read by patients and their families trying to understand hepatoma and how it can be treated, the section on treatment needs considerable work to update it and correct a number of errors. For example, the article states that cryosurgery is "a new technique" - when in fact it has existed for decades and has been widely used to treat hepatoma since the 1980s. In the case of hepatoma it is also associated with high-risk to patients from shock, which can arise as a result of hormone and enzyme cascades triggered by the therapy. On the other hand, radiofrequency ablation as a treatment for hepatoma is relatively new (in widepsread use less than 7 years) and considered favorable to cryosurgery as it is minimally invasive, less risky and easier to perform (negligible risk of harmful biochemical response). The discussion of TACE is also incorrect - it states that TACE is not suitable for treatment of large tumors >8cm; this figure should be revised to >15cm, as it is now commonly used and frequently succeeds for tumors up to that size, without concurrent PEI or other treatments. Anyway, some update is certainly needed. Mudpuddles1418 (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Those points are still in the article - perhaps because we need RS for changes ? - Rod57 (talk) 13:23, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

This section is hugely skewed towards locally-directed liver therapies. Need to organize better (curative vs palliative intentions), more written on surgery/transplant, with more updated information on TACE/radioembolization and the other local therapies. Dr G (talk) 21:18, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

merge into liver cancer.
i suggest merging hepatocellular carcinoma into the liver cancer article for two reasons:1 this article does not cite any refrences,needs updating,wikification,and cleanup.and 2 hcc is the main type of liver cancer.24.97.164.250 (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

i agree.for a fairly common and very important malignancy,this article is a mess.there is outdated information like"a new therapy sorafenib is showing some promise in clinical trials".currently,sorafenib is the standered of care in advanced hepatocellular carcinoma (incorrectly termed hepatoma above).the treatment section esp needs cleanup and updating.i think that if in a few months the article is not at least somewhat improved,the whole article will need to be merged into liver cancer.169.244.148.235 (talk) 15:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the Liver Cancer article is redundant. There is a Liver Tumour article which includes information about Benign and Malignant Tumours and then each separate tumour type should have its own article (if noteworthy). The Liver Cancer article does not have any useful or new information in it that cannot be placed under liver tumour or HCC. Natasqi (talk) 06:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Liver tumor and Liver cancer should be merged, but Hepatocellular carcinoma should be kept separate. There are many other types of liver tumors. --Arcadian (talk) 12:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Hepatocellular carcinoma should be summarized in a section in liver cancer and I agree liver cancer and tumor should be merged. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The disease and its dietary concern...see...

 * Talk:Liver cancer--124.78.212.48 (talk) 08:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Needs refs
==Society and culture==

Awareness
The Jade Ribbon Campaign is used for awareness of liver cancer and hepatitis B in the Pacific Islands, where such illnesses are more widespread than elsewhere.

Famous people

 * Johannes Brahms famous late Romantic German composer. Died April 3, 1897 of liver cancer.
 * Morihei Ueshiba founder of the Japanese martial art of aikido. Died in 1969 of hepatocellular carcinoma.
 * John Coltrane Jazz musician. Died in 1967 from liver cancer.
 * Jim Hutton Died in 1979 from liver cancer.
 * Mickey Mantle Hall of Fame Baseball player with the New York Yankees.
 * Chris LeDoux Country Music Hall of Fame legend, and former Pro Rodeo rider.
 * Munetaka Higuchi Drummer for Japanese heavy metal band Loudness, died in 2008 of hepatocellular carcinoma.
 * Mick Ronson British Rock'n'Roll guitarist who died in 1993 of hepatocellular carcinoma.
 * Erich Honecker former leader of East Germany who died in 1994 in exile.
 * Ray Charles famous recording soulful music artist, Rock And Roll Hall of Fame, died on June 10, 2004.
 * Sun Yat-sen Father of the Nation in mainland China and in Taiwan
 * Édith Piaf French singer and cultural icon who "is almost universally regarded as France's greatest popular singer.", died on 10 or 11 October 1963.
 * Gregory Hines Professional dancer, film actor, and choreographer. Died in August 2003 of liver cancer.
 * Dave Thomas Founder of Wendys, died in 2002 of liver cancer.
 * Joan Finney Governor of Kansas (1991–1995) died of liver cancer in 2001
 * Robin Gibb Musician, member of the Bee Gees. Died of liver cancer in 2012

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Diagnosis
In the Diagnosis section of the article it mentions that a biopsy to confirm the diagnosis is not required if certain imaging criteria are met. What are the criteria? Nonagonal Spider (talk) 06:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I addressed this (5 years later lol) in re-vamping the Diagnosis section. Much clean up still needed.Dr G (talk) 05:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Lancet
Seminar 10.1016/S0140-6736(11)61347-0 JFW | T@lk  20:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Paywalled. Abstract doesn't promise much. Does it say anything worth putting in the WP article ? - Rod57 (talk) 13:29, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Immune-based therapies
Gut 10.1136/gutjnl-2014-307990 JFW | T@lk  14:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Current concepts of immune based treatments for patients with HCC: from basic science to novel treatment approaches Greten et al. - sadly paywalled : abstract says it's "... an overview for the rationale of immunotherapy in HCC, summarise ongoing studies and provide a perspective for immune based approaches in patients with HCC." - Could use in Research section ? - Rod57 (talk) 13:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Imaging review
10.7326/M14-2509 - MRI is most sensitive, CT/MRI are better than USS. JFW | T@lk  15:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Hepatocellular carcinoma. my edit. ... I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140325025254/http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130508-915494.html to http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130508-915494.html

archive only shows Title - no content.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 13:46, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Review
10.1053/j.gastro.2015.12.041 JFW | T@lk  10:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Evidence-Based Diagnosis, Staging, and Treatment of Patients With Hepatocellular Carcinoma Bruix et al. - Full text - Looks good. - Rod57 (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

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NASH unglossed in lead
Metabolic syndrome and NASH [first mention] are also increasingly recognized as risk factors for HCC.

— MaxEnt 13:09, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hepatocellular carcinoma


text:
Talk:Malbolge

Hello World
Should "hello world" be capitalized the way it is? It originally had no caps i believe. Now it has odd mixture of upper/lowercase letters. Perl 00:07, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Looking at the rest of the article, you'll see that no human-written malbolge programs exist, only ones that have been 'found' - essentially by trial and error. So ideally, we would include a program that displayed "Hello, world" or some other rational equivalent, but the best that exists is one that displays an odd mixture of upper and lower case. What that exact mixture is, I couldn't tell you for sure without a malbolge compiler to run it through, but I think the basic idea is correct. - IMSoP 00:29, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC) [Apologies for my over-verbosity, it's late and I'm tired]
 * Yes, it is actually "hEllO wORld". MISSINGNO. was here. 22:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Now a moot point, since Antwon posted his version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.191.183 (talk • contribs) 01:44, 27 July 2004

I have a different comment related to the Hello World section. Why has someone asked for citations for the two examples? Surely, the fact that you can paste each example into a Malbolge interpreter to check its veracity suffices as a citation?--Tedd (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

 * The rationale given for the "citation needed" edit was that the code could be dangerous since it was "encrypted". Of course this is absurd since Malbolge has no capabilities beyond standard input and output, so I have reverted. --Ørjan (talk) 05:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Quite easy
Today, after reading here how hard it is, I wrote a program which generates Malbolge programs writing various strings. It was quite easy. :-)

I'm going to describe right now. Taw 12:03, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * The article doesn't say that it is hard. It says that when the language came out, it was hard.  No one working with it at the time took the time or knew how to simplify it until a few years later.  With the simplified explanation added to the article, it is much easier to understand than the language specification made it. — 12.214.45.9 20:08, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * These "simplification" are trivial. For anyone with even the most basic understanding of cryptography, it is obvious that you can get rid of one of lookup tables, substractions and additions. Therefore your claim that it was difficult and is easy now is false. Probably no hello world was written in the first 2 years only because hardly anyone seriously tried. Taw 04:00, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm going to describe right now. -- You neglected to do so. Maybe it wasn't so easy after all. -- 184.189.216.159 (talk) 00:56, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Pointer notation
From the "Pointer notation" section:

 * [d] means the value of d is a memory address; [d] is the value stored at the address.

This is very unclear to me, and I don't know what it's trying to say: could someone clarify? AndrewWTaylor 14:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

 * This cannot be fixed effectively unless you are more specific. What about it is unclear ?  Do you not understand what a memory address is, or what it means to store something at an address, or something else ?  Was the section explaining what d means unclear or unread by you ? — 131.230.133.186 10:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Saying "[d] means the value of d is a memory address" is like saying "the mane is the hair on a horse is an animal". Kind of a broken sentence. Bromskloss 18:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think I understand. Perhaps a better phrasing would have been "[d] means that the value of d is a memory address". — 131.230.133.186 12:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No, it isn't like that at all ... it's like "horses can eat x means x is horse food." ... nothing broken about it. -- 184.189.216.159 (talk) 00:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Instructions section
The instruction jmp is defined as 'jmp [d] + 1'. Is this realy correct? I wrote an interpreter in VB.Net VisualStudio 2010 and it runs the 99 bottle loop correctly only with the definition 'jmp [d]' without the + 1. Also the section says 'After each instruction is executed, the guilty instruction gets encrypted (see below) so that it won't do the same thing next time, unless a jump just happened. Right after a jump, Malbolge will encrypt the innocent instruction just prior to the one it jumped to instead.' My interpreter makes no difference in the encryption between jmp and any other instruction. Any suggestions? If interested in my interpreter feel free to contact rheinflut1995@netcologne.de

Rheinflut1995 (talk) 22:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Is this realy correct? -- No, it isn't. -- 184.189.216.159 (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

What is a "guilty instruction" and what is an "innocent instruction"? I have never heard these terms used in programming before and Googling them just brings me back to this article. Maybe they should be replaced with more common terminology? 216.26.126.130 (talk) 22:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably (talking out of my ass here) from the original language specification, seeing as how it's named for the eight circle of hell in Dante's Inferno. I'd assume "guilty" instruction means the instruction just executed, or just about to be. 109.228.176.49 (talk) 12:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Crazy operation
Where does the name "Crazy" come from? From what I can see, the original specification, source code, and Lou Scheffer's page all refer to it simply as "Op". The only external reference I can see using the term "Crazy" is Esolang. Perhaps Wikipedia should refer to it simply as "Op" as well? —MattGiuca (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Interesting. The esolang mention is newer than the wikipedia one, and might be inherited from here, although comparing with wikipedia from the same time period it doesn't seem to use exactly the same terminology.  I googled the old esoteric mailing list archives from 2001-2004, and the term is not used there.  (But I didn't check how much Malbolge was discussed at all there.)  I'm not sure where else to check.  I posted a question at the esolang talk page. --Ørjan (talk) 02:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Cycles
The article mentions six different cycles, but at a cursory glance, I was not able to find every number from 0 to 93 in them. It is trivial to prove that they all have to be in some cycle: if there was a number that wasn't in any cycle, the sequence starting from it would have to generate new numbers forever, but this is impossible, as the numbers are mod 94. There are therefore two possibilities: I did not look at the article well enough, or there are some cycles not listed in the article. J I P | Talk 20:12, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I just checked, they are all there. The numbers 0-32 are given as 94-126, which are the same mod 94.  This is because Malbolge restricts the results to the 94 printable ASCII characters except space, starting at no. 33 (!). --Ørjan (talk) 11:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Difficulty? Why?
What is actually so difficult about Malbolge? Of course it is hard to write programs by hand. But why is it so difficult for a machine, that the first program of that kind needed several years? Don't you think that it is rather a question of little knowledge of the existance of the language? --87.172.182.231 (talk) 16:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree - taking a lot of time tells only that it's so obscure that nobody cared enough to try. It's not like there were thousands of scholars all around the world wracking their brains to come up with a solution. --188.238.131.94 (talk) 11:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Your question is the wrong way around. Doing anything is infinitely hard (short of stumbling upon how to do it by luck) if you don't know how to do it. So, how would you go about writing a program that generates a Malbolge program that performs a particular task? Your question suggests that you think that writing in Malbolge is hard merely because it uses obscure notation, but that is far from all that makes Malbolge difficult to work with. -- 184.189.216.159 (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Referenced in popular culture
If someone cares to do a proper edit, it's referred to in Elementary, season 1 episode 10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.236.91 (talk) 03:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I see you beat me to finding this on Wikipedia, but I first spent many hours learning about Malbolge and compiling the Interpreter by Ben Olmstead, then running all the examples I could find to test it. They all passed flawlessly. Then I proceeded to check the code that was visible on the paper that Sherlock held up, albeit upside down--easy enough to 'flip' the picture, and apart from the fact that there's no way in Dante's Inferno that what was shown could be remotely similar to the algorithm he later said was what it represented, that is, "E(n)=Q(n)/Q(E)+Q(n)" [and that's another story for a Maths article], I now know that the so-called Malbolge code fails after just the ninth (9-th) character (see further below). For those who may be interested in what was shown, it appeared to me to be as follows (Note: The 'W' in the top line may be questionable; and there appears to be more characters after the 'm' but I couldn't read them. The 'c' and the 'A' in the bottom line were both questionable. Also note: Wikipedia is keeping a leading ',' from appearing, so look at source text to know for sure what I saw):

 * ('&%:9]!-}|z2Vzwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=M:9wv^WsU2T|nm
 * ,jcl(I&%$#"^CB]V?Tx<uVtT^Rpo3N1f.Jh++Fdbc=CBA@?!

 * If you try running just "('&%:9]!-" (without the two quote marks), Ben's Malbolge Interpreter displays the error message: "invalid character in source file" referring to the minus sign at that position. So, even though, as I would assume, there appears to be some characters missing in the close-up view at the right edge of the paper created by the show's 'prop department,' it doesn't matter: The code is not a Malbolge program, at least not according to Ben's Interpreter! Daniel B. Sedory (talk) 10:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

 * What you copied is very similar, but with some errors here and there and the last part cut off, to the Hello World! program in this very article. They might very well have copied it from wikipedia, although it's of course available from other places. --Ørjan (talk) 10:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I have a flipped, reversed and then slightly rotated, image capture (only 212 Kb, .PNG) of the so-called 'Malbolge program' that appeared on the TV show Elementary and would like to email it to you or anyone else who would be able to add it to this page, so there's no question about what Sherlock held up for the audience! And as I stated above, there's no way that a bogus or let's be nice and call it a hurried and thus error filled copy of a 'Hello World' program could ever lead to the algorithm: "E(n)=Q(n)/Q(E)+Q(n)". You'll find my email address at my web site here: The Starman's Realm Daniel B. Sedory (talk) 02:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Oh. I don't think I'm the right person to do this, I'm not good with pictures and I would also be worried about the copyright of that image. --Ørjan (talk) 01:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

"A significantly shorter version" >>[citation needed]<< ?
in its current revision, anybody with half a brain can see the shorter version is indeed much shorter. no citation is needed. 88.88.16.75 (talk) 23:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

 * The rationale given for the "citation needed" edit wasn't the length, but that the code could be dangerous since it was unreadable. Of course this is absurd since Malbolge has no capabilities beyond standard input and output, so I have reverted. --Ørjan (talk) 05:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

 * To be fair, if you give me control of your standard input and output outside a sandbox, I can do pretty much anything. 109.228.176.49 (talk) 12:49, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Paper by Hisashi IIZAWA et al.
As one of the only technical work on the language, someone should try and translate it into English. http://www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkestElephant (talk • contribs) 11:54, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Malbolge Unshackled
As the creator of this variant, I am not going to edit that part myself, but the new, longer paragraph on Malbolge Unshackled is misplaced, partially redundant with the already existing mention, and also partially wrong (it takes more than staying within the memory limit to achieve backwards compatibility.) (That said, the editor who added it understands both Malbolge and the variant better than me.) --Ørjan (talk) 07:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

99 Bottles of Beer website down
The original place where the 99 bottles of beer in Malbolge example was posted seems to have gone down. I found a copy of the code at https://github.com/nstarke/malbolge-examples/blob/master/bottles-995.mb, but I'm not sure if there is a better source (such as the paper by Hisashi Iizawa). If anyone knows more about this, please edit the page! Mount2010 (talk) 18:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Malbolge


text:
User talk:MrDectol

Hello "MrDectol" and welcome to Wikipedia. A few tips for you:

 * Peruse Welcome, newcomers and associated pages, such as
 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * You can experiment in the Sandbox.
 * Sign talk page entries with ~, which is automatically converted to a name and date.
 * If you have any questions, see Help, or you can a question to the village pump.
 * Once you have learned how to properly format articles, you might wish to go back and fix your earlier contributions if no one else has already done that for you.
 * I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian -- Infrogmation 00:10, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:MrDectol


text:
Nanakusa-no-sekku

The Festival of Seven Herbs or Nanakusa no sekku is the long-standing Japanese custom of eating seven-herb rice porridge (七草粥, nanakusa-gayu, lit. "7 Herbs Rice-Congee") on January 7 (Jinjitsu); one of the Gosekku.

History
The seventh of the first month has been an important Japanese festival since ancient times. Jingchu Suishiji, written in the Six Dynasties China, recorded the Southern Chinese custom of eating a hot soup that contains seven vegetables to bring longevity and health and ward off evil on the 7th day of the first month of the Chinese calendar. Since there is little green at that time of the year, the young green herbs bring color to the table and eating them suits the spirit of the New Year. The custom was present in Taiwan until the mid-Qing Dynasty, and is still present in parts of rural Guangdong province.

Seven spring flowers
The nanakusa (七草/七種), or more specifically, haru no nanakusa (春の七草/春の七種), spring's seven flowers (or herbs), are seven edible wild herbs of spring. Traditionally, they are:

There is considerable variation in the precise ingredients, with common local herbs often being substituted.

On the morning of January 7, or the night before, people place the nanakusa, rice scoop, and/or wooden pestle on the cutting board and, facing the good-luck direction, chant "Before the birds of the continent (China) fly to Japan, let's get nanakusa" while cutting the herbs into pieces. The chant may vary from place to place.

Seven autumn flowers
The spring-time nanakusa are mirrored by aki no nanakusa (秋の七草/秋の七種), meaning autumn's seven flowers. They are listed below:

The seven flowers of autumn are bush clover (hagi), miscanthus (obana, Miscanthus sinensis), kudzu, large pink (nadeshiko, Dianthus superbus), yellow-flowered valerian (ominaeshi, Patrinia scabiosifolia), boneset (fujibakama, Eupatorium fortunei), and Chinese bellflower (kikyō, Platycodon gradiflorus). These seven autumn flowers provide visual enjoyment. Their simplicity was very much admired: they are small and dainty yet beautifully colored. They are named as typical autumn flowers in a verse from the Man'yōshū anthology.

Unlike their spring counterparts, there is no particular event to do anything about the seven flowers of autumn. The autumn flowers are not intended for picking or eating, but for appreciation, despite each one is believed to have medical efficacy in traditional Chinese medicine. Tanka and haiku theming hanano (花野, lit. flower field), meaning fields where the autumn wildflowers are in full bloom, have a centuries-old history.

Cautionary note
The Japanese parsley (Oenanthe javanica) species of the Oenanthe (water dropworts) genus is closely related to and easily confused with toxic water hemlock. Although accidental poisoning is rare, caution should be exercised when dealing with oenanthe species. As Oenanthe javanica is not found outside of Asia unless specifically cultivated, wild-growing varieties of water dropworts should be considered lethal, even in small amounts.

title: Nanakusa-no-sekku


text:
Talk:Naomi Wolf

Way too much self-sourced content
This article can be trimmed considerably. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree. There is too much quoting of her own work. Nangaf (talk) 19:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Misinfo and Info
The article talks about misinformation, but that word presumes the article possesses The Truth about covid. The reality is that science is evolving and depends on new empirical inputs. The covid vaccines were developed under Operation Warp Speed at great haste to try to cope with a global pandemic. Nobody on the planet knows the full and final "truth" about covid vaccines and what would constitute "true" information versus "misinformation." Science evolves  In the summer of 2021, it was believed that 2 covid shots made a person "fully vaccinated" and good to go, but by the summer of 2022 it had sadly become true that people with 2 covid shots could conceivably get covid, spread it, be hospitalized with it, and indeed even die of it. A lot of the covid censorship was based on false certitude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.27.38 (talk) 22:57, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why should we believe a random person on the internet (you) more than reliable sources? --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:30, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Labelling her as a conspiracy theorist for presenting facts that weren't being discussed about COVID vaccines and side effects is completely biased and not journalistic. You claim right at the top of this page that articles must have a "neutral point of view." Calling her a conspiracy theorist for questioning side effects of an experimental vaccine that were later proven to be true is as un-neutral as it gets.  Indigo Ibis (talk) 15:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You do not understand what "neutral" means on Wikipedia. It means adhering to what reliable sources say without inserting your own opinion, see WP:NPOV. So, your own opinion is that she "presented facts" and is not a conspiracy theorist. Reliable sources disagree with you, reliable sources win. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories on Twitter and her political positions
I propose adding her latest conspiracy theories about time travel vaccines to the main article under the conspiracy theories section.

Also, her current views and her audiences are neither liberal or progressive. She should no longer be called an 'American liberal' when she is playing to an audience of conservative and far-right cranks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7910:D100:ECD5:5B48:C8F1:342B (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Wolf's comments on Twitter don't seem to be gaining much traction in reliable sources, with the exception of her comments about her support for Joe Biden last November, including her recent statements about vaccines/time travel. For this reason, I think your removal of the liberal tag as a description of Wolf's politics is premature. Philip Cross (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

She eventually got suspended for vaccine disinformation (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57374241) JidGom (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theorist" in first sentence
Why does introducing Wolf as a conspiracy theorist merit the "Since around 2014, Wolf has regularly been described as" context, when we wouldn't do that for any other change in a person's career? A television personality who successfully pivots to writing fiction doesn't get "Since 2020, he is also a writer", it just goes into the opening sentence as present tense. Either Wolf is now widely enough regarded as a conspiracy theorist for this to be in the opening sentence, or it's a minor aspect of her recent life and is already covered at the end of the lead: a strongly-positioned second sentence with caveats is neither one thing nor the other. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 * I only found citations from around 2014, and later, which describe Wolf as a conspiracy theorist. The more recent articles on her COVID theories use "conspiracy theorist" or such like in the headline, so the description would seem to be part of her current image rather more than, say, "leading third-wave feminist". In reviews of The End of America (2007), the beginning of Wolf's wacky perception of an imminent coup in the United States, she is not described as a conspiracy theorist. As with her book Vagina (2012), she is often said to be badly wrong. Philip Cross (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Merged the two passages in the summary on Wolf as a "conspiracy theorist". Wolf's 2004 account of "sexual encroachment" (which I see as entirely credible) should not be mixed up with her history of conspiracy theories since about 2014. Philip Cross (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Probably should be discussed again. The use of the term "conspiracy theorist" has returned to the summary's first sentence and has been added to the occupation parameter in the infobox. Philip Cross (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

 * The way in which this is currently phrased doesn't make much sense and isn't consistent with other articles about people promoting conspiracy theories. For comparison look at the article on Paul Joseph Watson, who has been many things at different times but is described as a "conspiracy theorist" in the first sentence of his article. Saying that Naomi Wolf has been "described as a conspiracy theorist" after a certain date and putting this in the third paragraph down suggests ambiguity where there is none, and does not give due prominence to this aspect of her career. 82.0.123.129 (talk) 00:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

 * The difference is Paul Joseph Watson has been long been inclined to treat conspiracy theories seriously and began to strongly identify with Alex Jones and David Icke from his late teens more than 20 years ago, some time before he gained a public profile. His notability comes from his connection to fringe attitudes and individuals. Dr. Wolf is still first identified in recaps in reliable sources as the author of The Beauty Myth, a third-wave feminist and/or a former political consultant to leading Democrat politicians. Her turn to multiple conspiracy theories only came to media attention around 2013/2014. So, unlike Watson, Dr. Wolf's assertions since then are probably a secondary issue for this article's summary and those connected with the pandemic/her Twitter ban have gained only limited attention so far. Philip Cross (talk) 11:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC) ("theorist" corrected to "theories". Philip Cross (talk) 08:23, 19 August 2021 (UTC))
 * Describing her as a conspiracy theorist because she has different views is dishonest. I don’t donate to Wikipedia any longer because of the attack on those with different views. 2600:1700:70C1:11F0:B5F1:8A7A:59B3:222F (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Good thing that is not the actual reason then.
 * You cannot bribe Wikipedia into replacing facts by your opinion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between withholding contributions and bribing someone or some institution. FYI Forkhume (talk) 03:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "I will not give you money unless you write what I want you to write" is the same as "I will give you money if you write what I want you to write". Bribe. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:38, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You can tell a government official that you will no longer contribute to their campaign. But bribing is unlawful.  There is a legal difference.
 * Bribing has a negative connotation, and implies that the subject is of a questionable character. Withholding contribution does not carry a negative connotation, and in fact passes the negativity to the receiver.  That puts the contributor in a good light. Was this not your intention when you claimed he is bribing Wiki? Forkhume (talk) 12:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep your lawyerish sophisms. What matters is: you cannot force Wikipedia to change article content by waving a dollar bill, smiling and wagging your eyebrows. That will not change independent of what name you give it and which connotations that name has. It is still the same thing, and it is stupid and dishonest. Can we stop this? --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t donate to Wikipedia any longer because of the attack on those with different views. Sentiment expressed only by IP editors or accounts with no evidence of sustained engagement with Wikipedia. It is a rhetorical trope, not tied to actual actions. -- M.boli (talk) 15:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 * I'm not implying any wrongdoing on the part of anyone, but everyone should be always wary of potential WP:RECENTISM as well as individual editors' own conscious and unconscious biases (including filter bubbles, search engine bias, limited literature access, and preconceptions). --Animalparty! (talk) 05:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 * Sadly her dubious COVID claims, Twitter ban, and so forth are the main reason most people are aware of her now, regardless of how she originally came to prominence. Nangaf (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Proof of conspiracy theorist. "Those leaks, she alleged, showed that the FBI was privately treating OWS as a terrorist threat rather than a peaceful organization. The response to this article ranged from praise to criticism of Wolf for being overly speculative and creating a conspiracy theory." -- It is well known that the FBI has pursued activists and organizations for their political views.  Case in point is FBI's requests to Twitter to cancel users and the news.  Expressing an opinion that the FBI considers OWS as a terrorist threat, is not a conspiracy theory.  Since the inception of the FBI, it has been accused of political persecution.  But when Naomi Wolf repeats what anyone with a political acumen should know, she becomes a "conspiracy theorist" on top of her bio.  Why cancel her?  Is she now exiled from the place of the gods? Forkhume (talk) 04:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Its easy to check this. From the lead Sources describing Wolf as a "conspiracy theorist" or using related terms include:
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Softlemonades (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Can we justify labelling Naomi as a “conspiracy theorist” in her headline as an author? I feel like it’s very hard to maintain neutral point of view for an article on an author if they labelled a conspiracy theorist? I would make the point that more people know her first and foremost as an author. I believe it’s much more important to not label authors as conspiracy theorists unless a majority of people would consider that so. Dispute a topic doesn’t make someone a conspiracy theorist in absolute terms does it? binary.dat (talk) 05:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

 * You are correct that "conspiracy theorist" is a value-laden term and one that we should be hesitant to apply unless it can be amply justified. The issue is how best to describe the path that her journalism has taken. She is certainly not *solely* a purveyor of misinformation. In my view she is a polemicist with demonstrable disregard for factual accuracy, whose reputation has nose-dived in recent years concurrent with her commentary taking on some paranoid characteristics. To my mind "conspiracy theorist" is therefore a valid descriptor. Whether it should be in the lede is a nuanced issue and not one on which I have a dogmatic opinion. I hope the discussion here can help arrive at consensus. Nangaf (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

 * not label authors as conspiracy theorists unless a majority of people would consider that so Wikipedia does not do majority votes. It is based on reliable sources instead. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:30, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

"...according to mainstrem media..." makes it look like the article was wrien by a conspiracy theoristCzarnibog (talk) 07:59, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That half-sentence probably was, today. Reverted that edit. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:12, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

PhD thesis
Her PhD thesis was published at last, 6 years after being awarded, along with corrections to some of the issues and a torrent of critics on the thesis itself and wether the jury did a proper job. This can likely be used to further expand the article JidGom (talk) 21:11, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Is she opining on castrated sheep now? Not that I'm surprised. Nangaf (talk) 19:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Infertility: I think the point got droppped
Regarding the Covid vaccine infertility story. I think one take-away from the NPR article was that an early step in a typical meme-spread is that an influential person takes it up. That was Wolf, who then juiced the story up a bit and repeated it multiple times. The current language that Wolf tweeted a link to a Facebook article doesn't, I feel, do justice to the main point in the reference: Wolf is the one who dredged this story out of FB and made it popular -- M.boli (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Lazy editing
Conspiracy theory overused and misused to the point of meaninglessness, unless the point is to tar someone with the “kook” handle. love how Naomi’s work is so critically examined now she is not agreeing with her former tribe 2605:B100:91E:C203:B08A:6029:DD4F:6D94 (talk) 03:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please direct your complaints at the reliable sources the article takes the description from. We are just carrying the message, and we will not suppress part of it on your say-so. If you think that the term does not fit, find reliable sources that say it does not fit. Otherwise, there is nothing we can do without breaking the Wikipedia rules. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Conspiracy theorist' is putting it mildly. Wolf is widely considered to be completely deranged, her Oxford DPhil a shameful embarrassment to a prestigious university. --Ef80 (talk) 13:19, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "Conspiracy theorist"?! Have the rules of BLP been repealed? Or is Naomi Wolf now on the WP Enemies' List, such that protections that cover members of the WP Friends' List do not (or no longer) apply to her? Calling someone a "conspiracy theorist" is defamatory. There are no "reliable sources" that excuse such acts. 2603:7000:B23E:33EE:64D1:EDDE:464:8BB1 (talk) 09:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <<"... completely deranged" and embarrassment to Oxford>>?! -- What's the matter? That she does not easily submit to the newly established cultural authoritarians and elite-wannabee losers?  I write this as someone who disagrees with many things she writes, but who can smell a tacit cancellation and ideological conspiracy from a mile away -- that ironically accuse her of "conspiracy theory". Forkhume (talk) 03:29, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Really? The curators spend a whole section denouncing Wolf for having some errors in her Outrages book and thesis, without telling us what this book or her thesis is about.  This is demonstratively in bad faith.
 * There is more interest in cancelling her than being an encyclopedia entry about her. Forkhume (talk) 03:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well said. Wolf being a classic and principled dissident, feels compelled to dissent to the new established pseudo-elite and authoritarian order which seem to have taken over things. Forkhume (talk) 03:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Julian Assange rape allegations section
The page is protected so I cannot add this, but the page should set the record straight in that the Julian Assange rape allegations/investigations were completely dropped without results. See BBC news reporting from 2019. This is relevant in that it informs the actual outcome of the case. 190.195.146.6 (talk) 04:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Removed because its not relevant to Naomi Wolf or any claims she made Softlemonades (talk) 12:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "or any claims she made"? -- Wolf made the claim that Assange was accused with no substance, and Wolf has been proven correct. This certainly is to Wolf's credit and related to her claim.  Please return what you have removed. Forkhume (talk) 03:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * and Wolf has been proven correct. She was not proven correct. The case allegations werent dropped, the investigation was closed because Assange wasnt available. The prosecutors even made a statement at the time saying the complainants were credible. Softlemonades (talk) 10:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Removal of birth date
This edit removed Wolf's birth date, and thus age. It seems weird to me. Especially having a bio of a notable public figure which does not have so much as her age. -- M.boli (talk) 12:48, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

 * This removal is asinine and the result of misplaced and authoritarian cultural puritanism and correctness. Forkhume (talk) 02:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Ali G show appearance
Wolf appeared on the Ali G show, a show with the actor Sascha Baron Cohen portraying himself as a hip hop figure who purportedly seeks to broadcast information to his audience, unbeknownst to his interviewee that it is all a farce. Wolf fell for Ali G's schtick in a discussion about feminism, where Ali G checked every box on the list of "how to insult a feminist." Wolf did behave with grace in light of Ali G's behavior. This is probably the main reason anyone has ever heard of Wolf. 24.184.235.195 (talk) 00:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Naomi Wolf has been publicly known far longer than the interview. Why do you think Ali G selected her to interview?  What is the year of the interview? Forkhume (talk) 02:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Book review - Outrages: Sex, Censorship, and the Criminalization of Love
This section is so vacuously written that it casts a negative light on the probable group of people who have taken on the task to curate Naomi Wolf's Wiki entry.

There is no review or explanation of this book, and what ideas it contains or theories that it may propose. No exposition of her thesis either! What is this book about?

All we read is about some factual errors in the book, and how that casts aspersions on everything Wolf does, writes, or touches. Clearly that is the intention. Show me one thesis or one book that I can't find a number of factual errors by using Google search. This section appears as a hit piece. Her real crime is that she seems to question the dominant established narratives and that she has remained a dissident and anti-establishment rebel, and instead of succumbing and submitting to the new elitist cultural order and ideology, she actually challenges them. There is the putrid air of intellectual cancellation in the air.

This section is reporting the controversy surrounding this book without the context and without reporting the substance of the work. This is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Forkhume (talk) 02:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 * It is courteous assume good faith on behalf of your fellow editors.
 * Detailed review of the contents is somewhat beside the point in a bio. Moreover, the publisher pulled the book in its main market, so most people couldn't read it if they wanted to. Naturally the major press focus was how the factual errors in the text reflected on Wolf's scholarship. Lashing out at the editors of the article will not change that. Nangaf (talk) 02:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The "Not to be Confused with …" hatnote is a joke
The "Not to be Confused with Naomi Klein" hatnote is a joke, and does not belong in this article. Sure, some people allegedly confused the two on Twitter (the premise of Klein's 2023 book), but that does not justify the inclusion of that tag: it probably does justify a sentence somewhere in the body of the article, which exists. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 22:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

 * (who reverted my addition) and . This may be a joke to those of us who know the difference, but as I have now outlined more fully in this section about her new book, there has been enough ongoing confusion "for over a decade" (her words) to inspire the author to do massive research and then write a whole book because of this confusion. Please reinstate the hatnote. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see it is a joke, and I don't think Klein does either. Klein says people confuse her with Wolf, and that they have for a long time. I'm just not aware of anyone else that thinks so. Not that I doubt Klein's experience, just that it's one person's experience. I think both the hatnote, and the wiki-voice statement you added ("writer who is often mistaken") are too much. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * But the fact is that readers of Wikipedia may well be confusing the two, and our aim is to help them find the right article. I have come across the confusion myself in conversation with others (in Australia). The quote is possibly a bit on the long side, but I think it's important to explain the origin of the title, and what led her to write it. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * How do you imagine that this hypothetical person looking for an article about Naomi Wolf ends up on the article about Klein (or vice versa)? Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 02:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A person who is trying to remember that feminist, Jewish author who wrote several popular books, and cultural criticism. She's in her 50's... Naomi ...something. Wolf? DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. If that "may well be" firms up into more of a "probably are", I'd support a hatnote. The downsides include added confusion ("why would i be looking for this other person?") and visual noise in some prime real estate. The quote I think you're talking about is in the other article. For this article, would you be ok with changing the first sentence to start with "Author Naomi Klein says she is often confused with Wolf; this confusion is ..." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is simply no reason not to put the disambiguation on the Klein page. Possibly an argument here on the Wolf page, that it creates an association out of thin air, but that ship has sailed. Really time to drop the stick. Put it back. DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, there are arguments, but I take it you disagree with them. Let's see how the next few folks to show up feel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Why not err on the side of helpfulness? It doesn't cost anything, and the justification is in the article. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We're both pro-helpfulness! We haven't agreed on the most helpful move to make for the hatnote. Thoughts on the body text change? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus for the removal of the hatnote. Including it should be the default position. Please stop edit waring and put it back while you continue this crusade.
 * The only arguments I have seen here for removing the hatnote are 1) It's a joke (not an argument) 2) "visual noise" (what policy or MOS are you refering to?) 3) added confusion (the entire point of disambiguation is to disambiguate. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Including it should be the default position"
 * "edit waring"
 * WP:HATNOTE itself emphasizes that there are downsides to their use: "As hatnotes separate the reader from the content they are looking for, hatnotes should generally be as concise as possible" and later "There should be as few hatnotes as possible." In WP:HATCONFUSE, we're guided to use templates like the one under dispute when a "significant portion of the readership" might confuse the topics. That's what this debate should be coming down to. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The question isn't can hatnotes be misused? You are making a specific claim. What is it? You don't think a significant portion of the readership will be confused? I was confused. There's a whole book about the confusion. Klein was invited to attend events that were meant to be for Wolf. That's the evidence for keeping the hatnote. We have WP:RS and Notability. What's the evidence for removing it? You're just not feeling the vibe? I will say it again. please put the hatnote back until you can establish consensus for its removal. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:26, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * All of that are certainly good reasons for mentioning the confusion in the article, not the hatnote. The hatnote disambiguates confusable articles, not confusable people. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 03:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The hatnote saves the time of readers who are on the wrong page. Unless you want to put the clarification in the lead, which would NOT be WP:DUE on Wolf's page, you are expecting the reader to go 6 headings down to figure it out? DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I just realised that I meant to reply on Naomi Klein talk page... However, my point is about being helpful to wiki users. What about using a text hatnote along the lines of "sometimes confused with Canadian author and social activist/American author and conspiracy theorist" on each? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's what was originally there. It was fine and supported by consensus. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have seen no evidence for this "supported by consensus" claim. That it was what was there before I removed it isn't evidence. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 03:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You are not following WP:BRD and gaming the system by having the page the way you want it while engaging in an unofficial RfC. Please put the hatnote back and we can continue the discussion. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait, why is your favored version to be the default then? I won't remove it again without discussion/consensus, but if you want it back, put it in yourself. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 04:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The downsides include added confusion ("why would i be looking for this other person?") I confuse them because of the hat note Softlem (talk) 11:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I didn't think Klein's claim about the confusion was a joke. I (perhaps erroneously) believed that the hatnote was added as a joke. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I've experienced this confusion at least twice before (and why I ended up on this page in the first place), and support use of a brief hatnote -- no other mention in lead needed. Here's some examples of this confusion in the wild: (in the comments), "I made this same mistake last May...",, , , . Presumably Klein's Doppelganger has some better examples. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 11:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've already stated my opinion, but just wanted to add especially that for non-North Americans, the similarities between the two women are more pronounced - relatively uncommon given names, ages, hair, etc.; both started their careers writing on kind of social activist themes; and both have "American accents" . And once confused, the name confusion can often continue to be repeated in certain circles. So while it may seem silly to confuse them, the fact is that they have been and continue to be confused, so I think a hatnote is helpful. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 23:32, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I support keeping the note, for the reason stated above that they are confused often enough for one of them to have written extensively about it. cagliost (talk) 12:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've already stated my opinion, but just wanted to add especially that for non-North Americans, the similarities between the two women are more pronounced - relatively uncommon given names, ages, hair, etc.; both started their careers writing on kind of social activist themes; and both have "American accents" . And once confused, the name confusion can often continue to be repeated in certain circles. So while it may seem silly to confuse them, the fact is that they have been and continue to be confused, so I think a hatnote is helpful. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 23:32, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I support keeping the note, for the reason stated above that they are confused often enough for one of them to have written extensively about it. cagliost (talk) 12:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2023
Change "Naomi Rebekah Wolf (born 1962) is an American feminist author, journalist, and conspiracy theorist. After the 1991 publication of her first book, The Beauty Myth, Wolf became a leading spokeswoman of what has been called the third wave of the feminist movement..." to "Naomi Rebekah Wolf (born 1962) is an American conservative author, journalist, and conspiracy theorist. After the 1991 publication of her first book, The Beauty Myth, Wolf became a spokeswoman of what has been called the third wave of the feminist movement. Wolf currently embraces far-right extremism and no longer embodies intersectional feminism."

(This is not the edit, just an explanation) Naomi Wolf currently aligns with American conservatism. She has co-authored work with Steve Bannon, she spreads mis/dis-information and has rebranded her political alliances. This by no means justifies how she has been attacked online, but it should be named early on her wiki page that she is no longer this figurehead for third-wave feminism. Rahomie (talk) 23:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Thickynugnug (talk) 09:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2024
Naomi is not a feminist author but a conspiracy theorist. 2600:1011:B18F:84D9:9578:326:FA46:F6B1 (talk) 16:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC) — Urro[ talk ] [ edits ] 17:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.

title: Talk:Naomi Wolf


text:
Obon

Obon (お盆) or just Bon (盆) is a fusion of the ancient Japanese belief in ancestral spirits and a Japanese Buddhist custom to honor the spirits of one's ancestors. This Buddhist custom has evolved into a family reunion holiday during which people return to ancestral family places and visit and clean their ancestors' graves when the spirits of ancestors are supposed to revisit the household altars. It has been celebrated in Japan for more than 500 years and traditionally includes a dance, known as.

The festival of Obon lasts for three days; however, its starting date varies within different regions of Japan. When the lunar calendar was changed to the Gregorian calendar at the beginning of the Meiji era, the localities in Japan responded differently, which resulted in three different times of Obon. (Bon in July) is based on the solar calendar and is celebrated around the 15th of July in eastern Japan (Kantō region such as Tokyo, Yokohama and the Tōhoku region), coinciding with. (Bon in August), based on the lunar calendar, is celebrated around the 15th of August and is the most commonly celebrated time. (Old Bon) is celebrated on the 15th day of the seventh month of the lunar calendar, and so differs each year, which appears between August 8 and September 7. Exceptions occurred in 2008 and 2019, when the solar and lunar calendar matched, and so and  were celebrated on the same day. is celebrated in areas such as the northern part of the Kantō region, Chūgoku region, Shikoku, and Okinawa Prefecture. These three festival days are not listed as public holidays, but it is customary for people to be given leave.

History of
The Japanese Obon Festival is heavily influenced from the Ghost Festival of Buddhism, and the Chinese Taoist (中元) Festival.

The Buddhist tradition originates from the story of Maha Maudgalyayana (Mokuren), a disciple of the Buddha, who used his supernatural powers to look upon his deceased mother only to discover she had fallen into the Realm of Hungry Ghosts and was suffering. Greatly disturbed, he went to the Buddha and asked how he could release his mother from this realm. Buddha instructed him to make offerings to the many Buddhist monks who had just completed their summer retreat on the fifteenth day of the seventh month. Mokuren did this and, thus, saw his mother's release. He also began to see the true nature of her past selflessness and the sacrifices she had made for him during her lifetime. The disciple, happy because of his mother's release from suffering and grateful for her many kindnesses, danced with joy. From this dance of joy comes the or "Bon Dance", a time during which ancestors and their sacrifices are remembered and appreciated. See also: Ullambana Sutra.

As Obon occurs in the heat of the summer, participants traditionally wear, a kind of light cotton kimono. Many Obon celebrations include a huge carnival with rides, games, and summer festival foods.

During the festival, families traditionally sent their ancestors' spirits back to their permanent dwelling place under the guidance of fire in a ritual known as "sending fire", or, in a larger scale, the Burning of the Character Big in the mountain. Fire also marks the commencement as well as the closing of the festival.

Another significant ritual practiced during the Obon festival in Japan is to craft a cucumber horse and eggplant cow, known as "spirit horse" (精霊馬) or "cow horse" (牛馬), that act as a vessel for the ancestors to come back home and return, respectively.

Etymology
The Japanese word is composed of the honorific prefix  and the word. The portion is from the longer Japanese names Urabon (盂蘭盆) or Urabon'e (盂蘭盆会), in turn from the Chinese terms 盂蘭盆  or 盂蘭盆會.

The Chinese terms are often described as deriving from Sanskrit meaning "hanging upside down", in reference to souls suffering in hell. However, the Sanskrit word was sparsely, if at all, attested; in addition, it would be the present participle of verb Sanskrit ("to hang", intransitive), with no inherent "upside-down" meaning.

Moreover, neither the purported meaning of "hanging upside-down" nor the verifiable meaning of "hanging" match the semantics very well, given that the ceremonies are about helping the dead, closer in meaning to the "helping" sense of the Pali verb  ("raising, helping"), present participle of  ("to raise up, to help"). This suggests that explanations of the dead hanging upside-down in hell are more likely to be folk etymologies based on a mistaken connection to the Sanskrit verb, rather than a more direct semantic link to the Pali. Alternatively, Takakusu Junjiro propounded that the origin was in fact Pali, a colloquial corruption of the Pali ("raising up; saving; helping"), and that the etymology was mistakenly attributed to Sanskrit.

Bon Odori (盆踊り), meaning simply "Bon dance", is a style of dancing performed during Obon. It is a folk entertainment, which has a history of nearly 600 years. Originally a folk dance to welcome the spirits of the dead, the style of celebration varies in many aspects from region to region. Each region has a local dance, as well as different music. The music can be songs specifically pertinent to the spiritual message of Obon, or local folk songs. Consequently, the Bon dance appears different from region to region. Hokkaidō is known for the folk-song. The song takes its namesake from the capital of Japan. in Gujō in Gifu Prefecture is famous for all night dancing. is a folk song from Shiga Prefecture. Residents of the Kansai area will recognize the famous. Tokushima in Shikoku is very famous for its, and in the far south, one can hear the of Kagoshima.

The way in which the dance is performed is also different in each region, though the typical Bon dance involves people lining up in a circle around a high wooden scaffold made especially for the festival called a. The is usually also the bandstand for the musicians and singers of the Obon music. Some dances proceed clockwise, and some dances proceed counter-clockwise around the. Some dances reverse during the dance, though most do not. At times, people face the and move towards and away from it. Still some dances, such as the Kagoshima dance, and the Tokushima, simply proceed in a straight line through the streets of the town.

The dance of a region can depict the area's history and specialization. For example, the movements of the dance of the (the "coal mining song") of old Miike Mine in Kyushu show the movements of miners, i.e. digging, cart pushing, lantern hanging, etc.; the above-mentioned  mimics the work of fishermen such as hauling in the nets. All dancers perform the same dance sequence in unison.

There are other ways in which a regional Bon dance can vary. Some dances involve the use of different kinds of fans, others involve the use of small towels called which may have colourful designs. Some require the use of small wooden clappers, or, during the dance.

The music that is played during the Bon dance is not limited to Obon music and ; some modern hits and kids' tunes written to the beat of the  are also used to dance to during Obon season.

The Bon dance tradition is said to have started in the later years of the Muromachi period as a public entertainment. In the course of time, the original religious meaning has faded, and the dance has become associated with summer.

The Bon dance performed in the Okinawa Islands is known as. Similarly, the Yaeyama Islands have.

Korea
The Korean version of the Obon celebration is known as. Participants present offerings at Buddhist shrines and temples, and masked dances are performed. It is as much an agricultural festival as a religious one.

Hinduism
(literally "fortnight of the ancestors") is a 16–lunar day period in Hindu calendar when Hindus pay homage to their ancestors, especially through food offerings. is considered by Hindus to be inauspicious, given the death rite known as or  performed during the ceremony.

Philippines
In the Philippines, Filipinos of Japanese descent, with support from the Philippine Nikkei Jin Kai Inc., Philippine Nikkei Jin Kai International School, Mindanao Kokusai Daigaku, and various other Japanese Filipino-based organizations, hold an Obon festival every year along with other Japanese-based Filipino festivals, to celebrate the ancestors of Filipinos of Japanese descent, and to celebrate the friendship between Japan and the Philippines.

Argentina
In Argentina, the Obon Festival is celebrated by Japanese communities during the summer of the southern hemisphere. The biggest festival is held in Colonia Urquiza, in La Plata. It takes place on the sports ground of the La Plata Japanese School. The festival also includes shows and typical dances.

Brazil
Obon Festival is celebrated every year in many Japanese communities all over Brazil, as Brazil is home to the largest Japanese population outside Japan. São Paulo is the main city of the Japanese community in Brazil, and also features the major festival in Brazil, with street dancing and  dance. It also features and  contests. The festival also features a variety of Japanese food and drink, art and dance. Obon is also celebrated in communities of Japanese immigrants and their descendants and friends throughout South America: Obon festivals can be found in the states of Santa Catarina, São Paulo, Goiás, Amazonas, Pará (Tomé-Açu), Mato Grosso, Mato Grosso do Sul, Pernambuco, Bahia, Paraná, Rio Grande do Sul and Brasília.

Malaysia
In Malaysia, Obon Festival is also celebrated every year in Esplanade, Penang, Shah Alam Stadium in Shah Alam, Selangor, and also Universiti Malaysia Sabah at Kota Kinabalu, Sabah. This celebration, which is a major attraction for the state of Selangor, is the brainchild of the Japanese Expatriate & Immigrant's Society in Malaysia. In comparison to the celebrations in Japan, the festival is celebrated on a much smaller scale in Penang, Selangor and Sabah, and is less associated with Buddhism and more with Japanese culture. Held mainly to expose locals to a part of Japanese culture, the festival provides the experience of a variety of Japanese food and drinks, art and dance, with the vast number of Japanese companies in Malaysia taking part to promote their products.

United States and Canada
Obon festivals are also celebrated in North America, particularly by Japanese-Americans or Japanese-Canadians affiliated with Buddhist temples and organizations. Buddhist Churches of America (BCA) temples in the U.S. typically celebrate Obon Festival with both religious Obon observances and traditional dancing around a. Many temples also concurrently hold a cultural and food bazaar providing a variety of cuisine and art, also to display features of Japanese culture and Japanese-American history. Performances of taiko by both amateur and professional groups have recently become a popular feature of Bon Odori festivals. Obon festivals are usually scheduled anytime between July and September.

melodies are also similar to those in Japan; for example, the dance from Kyushu is also performed in the U.S. In California, due to the diffusion of Japanese immigration,  dances also differ from Northern to Southern California, and some are influenced by American culture, such as "Baseball ".

The "Obon season" is an important part of the present-day culture and life of Hawaii. It was brought there by the plantation workers from Japan, and now the Bon dance events are held among the five major islands (Kauai, Oahu, Molokai, Maui and Hawaii) on weekend evenings from June to August. They are held usually at Buddhist missions, but sometimes at Shintoist missions or at shopping centres. At some Buddhist missions, the dance is preceded by a simple ritual where the families of the deceased in the past year burn incense for remembrance, but otherwise the event is non-religious. The songs played differ among the regions - one or two hour Bon dance in the Western part of the Big Island (in and around Kailua Kona), for example, typically starts with, continues with songs such as (using wooden clappers),  (using  given at the donation desk),  and  from Okinawa Prefecture (reflecting the fact that many Okinawan descendants live in Hawaii),  for children, zumba songs for the young, Beautiful Sunday, etc., and ends with , celebrating abundant harvest. The participants, Japanese descendants and the people of all races, dance in a big circle around the, the central tower set up for the dance, from which recorded songs are broadcast and, most of the time, the group accompany the songs playing drums. In larger cities, Bon dance lessons are given by volunteers before the actual events.

Some Japanese museums may also hold Obon festivals, such as the Morikami Museum in Florida.

In St. Louis, Missouri, the Botanical Garden has hosted an Obon festival over Labor Day weekend every year since 1977. Known as the Japanese festival, it is a collaboration with several Japanese-American organizations, and hosts thousands of people over a three-day period. The festival provides authentic Japanese music, art, dance, food, and entertainment including dancing around a, sumo wrestling, drums, bonsai demonstrations, music played on traditional instruments, several bazaars, food courts with authentic Japanese foods, tea ceremonies, candlelit lanterns released on the lake in the gardens Japanese garden and much more.

In Salt Lake City, Utah, the Salt Lake Buddhist Temple holds an Obon festival in mid-July with food, temple tours, taiko performances, and a Japanese goods store.

title: Obon