text:
Talk:Buffalo, New York

Missing climate chart
Why is the article missing its climate chart? That is very strange for a city of this size.

I see that there is some version of the climate chart included in another person's comment on this Talk page.

I am not knowledgeable about climate charts, but it's easy to imagine that a city that is very cold and/or very snowy might want to modify its climate chart so that people don't get a negative impression of the place.

I hope that is not why the article is missing its climate chart, and I hope that an accurate one is included with the article very soon!

This should not be controversial!!!47.44.96.195 (talk) 18:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Why doesn't Buffalo have a climate chart (by months) like most major cities in Wikipedia?
It seems like such an obvious question.2601:200:C000:1A0:D468:F23C:FD48:2F6E (talk) 04:30, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

 * It's there -- go to the climate section, end of the third paragraph. Depending on how you are browsing it may show differently, but I see a show/hide button, and it's hidden by default. Antandrus (talk) 04:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Update on article process
Hello all, I'm working now to try and get this article to good article and potentially featured article status. It has been a goal of mine for a very long time to do this and I think it's a possibility, even as very few city articles have reached FA-status in the past 10 years. My process is to reference the structures of FAs for Minneapolis, Boston and Cleveland. Minneapolis was recently reviewed and is the most up-to-date and in-shape of these articles. Other U.S. city FAs have not been as maintained as these, so I am not using them as a guide. So far, the Culture, Sports, Education, and some of the History sections seem to be at the high quality standard that the best Wikipedia articles have.

In addition, I have several books at my disposal that I'm referencing and they are in the bibliography of the article. Since these are mostly historical books, I may need others to reference the culture section for example. In addition, I am looking for access to the New York History Journal and hope to get this soon.

After I do more research and the article is expanded, edited and sourced properly, I will ask for it to be copy edited and will likely go straight to a GA nomination. Depending on the response I will see how feasible an FA nomination is.

I will be looking to take pictures around the area in the coming months. Many photos in this article are outdated, of lower quality, aren't as relevant to the city as a whole or have exposure issues.

If anyone has any suggestions or wishes to collaborate please let me know! Buffaboy talk 16:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

 * The article does not include Daemon University 2600:1700:4678:F300:A0A0:3B7:61B9:3E3C (talk) 23:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Seal of Buffalo, New York.svg

RfC on history section
At this point in time I feel comfortable with this article's development outside of the History section, minus the econ section. Although I want to get the article to GA status, I've probably put in nearly 200 hours into editing the article so far. I know it's a lofty challenge but I believe GA is only the first step, I'd like to get the article to featured status.

With this in mind, I will be getting physical books soon mostly for the history section. Now I'm not used to note taking even though I took a research class in college, what advice could you give (if you've worked on a featured article) for effective research? What books are most appropriate, i.e. fits in with WP:NPOV? Buffaboy t and c 17:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

 * (invited by the bot)I've done a lot of GA reviews and took one article to FA but FA is not my dance.   One thing to double check is that the lead is a summary of the body of article so it should not have anything that is not in the body.   Looks like the "49th largest" might be a case of this.  Also, if it's cited in the body it's doesn't have to be cited again in the lead. Footnes in the lead is fine but might raise the question of whether that material is in the body of the article. North8000 (talk) 19:25, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Good catch, thank you. Buffaboy  t and c 23:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm a researcher in my everyday job, and may be some quick advise, its quicker if you are using general books, rather than indepth niche ones. Being an encyclopedia, general books should be enough. Just make sure they are by a reputable author and publisher so they meet RS of course.

200 hours, good going, that's amazing. Great effort! Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Thank you! When you say general books, do you mean like topical books rather than specific ones? Buffaboy  23:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

 * One important thing to keep in mind is proportionality; i.e., how many words/paragraphs to devote to different aspects of the main [sub-]topic. In this case, it sounds like your research topic is "history of Buffalo". Getting a sense of proportionality is something that is difficult to ascertain by looking at secondary sources if there are too many of them. A good way to start, might be to look at WP:TERTIARY sources, and see how much space they devote to each subsection: pre-history, pre-Columbian, European colonization, and so on.  Some tertiary sources may have footnotes or a brief bibliography or list of sources, which means those are secondary sources with the imprimatur of a trusted tertiary source, and might be worth looking at as a starting point among the sources you use to develop the original framework of your article, or section. Once you've scoped out the basic framework with the appropriate proportions, you can fill in the details with more niche sources available to you locally, while maintaining appropriate proportions as the whole expands. I added section sizes to the TP header for you, so you can get a birds-eye view of the current breakdown of the article by section. Mathglot (talk) 05:53, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Great explanation. I've already finished rewriting everything outside of the history section. I've been actively avoiding tertiary sources because I didn't want them to shape my idea for building the article, but your idea makes more sense. Buffaboy  (talk) 06:37, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And the section header is amazing, as well as the other utilities you added. Thank you! Buffaboy  (talk) 06:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Harv errors
, since you feel that the article is basically ready for GA, might I ask you to fix my pet niggle? In the "Notes" section there are footnotes created using harvnb to Goldman 1983a and 1983b. Currently there are two sources that declare themselves as 1983b and none as 1983a, so both footnotes generate harv/sfn errors. Thanks! Wham2001 (talk) 07:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC) PS. fine-looking article otherwise!

 * I forgot about those, clearly I haven't read though the article again. Thank you for watching progress and the reminder. Buffaboy  (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Census update
When will you update the population in terms with the 2020 census. Jdietr601 (talk) 01:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Unless I am out of the loop, it appears as though only estimates are available right now. If you can find the official release, feel free to add it in. dekema  (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 05:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Density statistics
I can't make any sense of the population density statistics, and they're not referenced. My guess is that other values were updated without updating the stats, and they're just computed. The reference given for area leads to a list of counties in New York state, and include information about Buffalo city ... so we don't know the area. The population number is updated from the census. Without a reference, should this information be removed? Is a reference forthcoming? -- Mikeblas (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 * Yes, I haven't had too much time to update the population figures but when I (or anyone else) have the opportunity to, I'll get to it ASAP. The article is also in PR for FA, but again I have to find the time to address the concerns raised there as well. dekema  (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Historical population
There's been some back-and-forth editing to delete and restore etc etc two different sets of population figures. One starts with 1508 in 1810 and has 278,349 in 2020. The other starts with 68 in 1810 and has 110,000 in 2020. Sound like metro-area vs city limits, but did they really have metro-area stats in 1810 and 1820 etc? Maybe they had "city and surrounding area, but it seem odd that in 1810 you'd have 68 people in the "city limits" (waterfront village I suppose) and another 1,440 in the "surrounding area". Odd and how would they know to this level of detail?

The two refs 404 on me so I don't know. Not familiar with this article, maybe someone could sort this out, maybe add a note to the list as to what it is (or another column so as to have both), maybe an internal edit notice, straighten out sources. Just pointing this out. Herostratus (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

 * That's kind of weird, I guess I'll look through tomorrow and see what's going on. It's interesting how an article can change when you haven't edited it in awhile. dekema  (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 03:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Bangladeshi in Buffalo
Before covid-19 pandemic Bangladeshi people started to move Buffalo from NYC because of having a own house in cheap and also buying a house in cash.Bangladeshi American have a dream to have a own house in America.Also NYC rent became more higher than before. Because all of these, Bangladeshi started to move in buffalo. In covid-19 pandemic, It's became more and more. Nowadays, There are 150+ hundred thousand of Bangladeshi People live in Buffalo and near area's. Most of them has their own house. Also many of them has more than 100 or 50 houses.It's a big community in Buffalo now.And it gradually increasing day by day 27.147.201.186 (talk) 08:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 Mass Shooting Buffalo

 * Moved the sentence about the 2022 mass shooting out of the introduction. While still devastating and a major event in the city of Buffalo history, the shooting should not be mentioned in the intro paragraph for the overall article. Especially a paragraph about culture.
 * For now I put it in with "public safety" . Looking at how other mass shootings were organized into their City pages (Dayton, Orlando, Aurora) it is usually included in the section on the history of the city, or in Dayton's case only a brief mention of the event in their crime section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gart99 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse
Cannibal Corpse is a very successful band from Buffalo. Worth including Dethcorenthuseast (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Origin of City's Name
Buffalo was so named as it was the site of the British trade in buffalo hides. ItsACityOfApes (talk) 02:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo montage
In my opinion the current iteration of the photo montage is a joke. I much prefer the iteration from earlier this year, as most of the images were newer and higher quality. For instance, the Metro Rail livery in the gallery has not been used in nearly 20 years, if not longer. The shot of City Hall is taken at a bad angle. The panorama at the top is more like a silhouette of the skyline rather than a proper capture of it. The drone image I took last year, while I did not add it to the article (and disliked it), portrays the skyline in an appropriate way. This sounds like harsh criticism but for a good article the photo gallery should be presentable. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 04:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, fixing. Let me know what you think. ɱ  (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fabulous, I was going to wait for others to chime in but it looks great. Thanks a lot! dekema  (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Content dispute over first sentence
User:AndrewSan12 continues to edit-war over the first sentence of the article, adding:
 * Buffalo is the second most-popular city in the state and the 6th most-populous Administrative Division in the U.S. state of New York and the seat of Erie County.

My first concern is that this is a sloppy run-on sentence.

My other concern is that Administrative divisions of New York (state)--a link which User:AndrewSan12 insists on including--is both unnecessary and confusing, because that article includes "counties" as administrative divisions. Moreover, the non-US census source this editor uses to support their edit, does not include counties and does not even mention "administrative divisions".

The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 * in the articles "administrative divisions" are the various forms of local government. Counties are one form, Towns, Villages and Cities are others. The sloppiness of the sentences shouldn't be put on me. I didn't create this article. AndrewSan12 (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 * Yeah on the merits, I don't think "administrative district" should be in the lede sentence, possibly not in lede at all, but not in the first paragraph if it is.

 * So OK, the reader wants to find out about this place "Buffalo". The lede, particularly the first sentence, is important. So, let's see what this one does. It tells me that:

 * It is a city
 * A large one
 * In New York State
 * In Erie County (which enh, but whatever, and the name of this one happens to imply its location)
 * It is the 6th largest administrative district

 * Which, what is an administrative district. It's not the city. It's not the county, we gave that (although it actually is the county, turns out). Maybe administrative district = the metro area maybe? In which case its not so big city. If it's not that, it's something else. Well, there's a link I can click which requires me to leave the page before I've even read the first sentence. If I want to know what an administrative district is, which it's maybe important cos it's in the first sentence. Which takes me to a page which doesn't explain it much and is intended for people who are learning about a specific part pf New York State political geography, which most people searching on "Buffalo" won't.

 * Plus that article's lede needs some clarity. Rather than starting with "The administrative divisions of New York are the various units of government that provide local services in the U.S. State of New York. The state is divided into boroughs, counties, cities, towns, and villages...". Needs to be something like "Administrative district is the general term New York State uses to refer to its counties, cities, towns, boroughs, and villages. Every populated place in New York is in an administrative district; some are quite large and some quite small." Or something.

 * Yeah 86 it. For my part, what I really want to know is the size of the metro area. Many cities have unusually cramped or expansive city limits, so the population of just the legal city is kind of misleading.

 * So let's see, how about

 * (I don't know if "metro area" or "metropolitan area" is used, or "largest" or "most populous" etc.)

 * Being near Niagara Falls (and the gateway to the falls, basically) is important, as Niagara Falls is famous worldwide and more famous the Buffalo I'm sure. Probably a fair number of people looking up the city are going to Niagara Falls or learning about Niagara Falls and want to know about its immediate area.

 * You could go with "on Lake Erie, near Niagara Falls, and is...". Or you could sneak it in like this

 * Tough call. The first is clear and direct. The second, you have to stop for a split second and think... "Oh that must mean it is near Niagara Falls", which ledes should be as smooth as possible. The second does add a bit of data though, the name of the metro area.

 * As for the administrative district (I'm assuming that Erie County is the administrative district) sure it can go somewhere in the lede if you like, but give some context when you introduce it maybe:

 * Or "...and the largest that is not part of New York City" or something.

 * TL;DR:: get rid of the administrative district from the first paragraph at least Herostratus (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 * Ledes get tweaked around a lot. Cos they're right there. The 93rd sentence might need attention instead. One year ago the lede started with "Buffalo is the second-largest city in the U.S. state of New York and the seat of Erie County. It is at the eastern end of Lake Erie, at the head of the Niagara River, and is across the Canadian border from Southern Ontario".

 * Which, I don't know, that's missing some of our data but adds other data. So who knows? Herostratus (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Administrative division" should not be included in the article, because it's a misleading link. Why?  Because the Wikipedia article Administrative divisions of New York (state) lists counties as "administrative divisions", so saying that Buffalo is one of the largest administrative divisions is misleading and wrong.  Buffalo isn't bigger than a county.  I tried to remove this but User:AndrewSan12 kept reverting. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * User:AndrewSan12, you need to come here to this thread and make your case. Do not keep reverting, this is not how we work together to find the best solutions to things.Herostratus (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Fat chance, he's been pushing similar edits at Utica, New York and List of municipalities in New York and I haven't gotten him to engage in a discussion. Apocheir (talk) 20:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * what's there to say AndrewSan12 (talk) 22:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There's plenty to say. We are a cooperative project where we hash things out thru conversation and collegial argument to find the best solutions to disputes. You can read my message above and I also engaged you on your talk page. Make your case for putting "administrative division" at the front. We are listening. Herostratus (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If you can notice it, "admin divisions of New York" states, and I quote "The administrative divisions of New York are the various units of government that provide local services in the U.S. State of New York. The state is divided into boroughs, counties, cities, towns, and villages." so when comparing the populations we use all. and I quote again "Counties and incorporated municipal governments (also known as "general purpose units of local government"; i.e., cities, TOWNS and villages) in the State of New York have been granted broad home rule powers enabling them to provide services to their residents and to regulate the quality of life within their jurisdictions." All of these are administrative divisions, counties being the primary, thus making a town or any other form of government an "administrative division". AndrewSan12 (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * And I know we are talking about Buffalo, but since I just proved here, Cities and Town's populations are combined no matter the legal power over one. I cant say "6th most populous city" because I'm comparing it with towns, and these towns are not to be confused with cities, thus I shall use "admin division". AndrewSan12 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright. Thanks for responding. Well, I'm not convinced. I've made my points above, and you didn't really address or try to refute them I think. I don't much care about how things in New York are divided up legally, you do I guess, and as I said I'm guessing that is because it's your area of expertise and interest. And fine, but we're writing for the general reader here, and I think the bit about 6th largest division is going to just confuse them. Let's see if anybody else has anything to say. Herostratus (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Because I'm not quite getting the point you're trying to make, if anything I should just say "City/Town" to clear up any confusion. and on the first statement again, and as Magnolia said "My first concern is that this is a sloppy run-on sentence" first off, that is not on me. second, he continued talking about "administrative district" that's a whole different thing from "admin division", You also said "I think the bit about 6th largest division is going to just confuse them" who will it confuse? I highly doubt that any reader would get confused. AndrewSan12 (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Change the photo that displays when you hover over the Buffalo, New York article link
Couldn't we have a better picture than one of the Peace Bridge?

Noticed in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_(state) Grovedweller (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Buffalo, New York


text:
Particle velocity

Particle velocity (denoted $v$ or $SVL$) is the velocity of a particle (real or imagined) in a medium as it transmits a wave. The SI unit of particle velocity is the metre per second (m/s). In many cases this is a longitudinal wave of pressure as with sound, but it can also be a transverse wave as with the vibration of a taut string.

When applied to a sound wave through a medium of a fluid like air, particle velocity would be the physical speed of a parcel of fluid as it moves back and forth in the direction the sound wave is travelling as it passes.

Particle velocity should not be confused with the speed of the wave as it passes through the medium, i.e. in the case of a sound wave, particle velocity is not the same as the speed of sound. The wave moves relatively fast, while the particles oscillate around their original position with a relatively small particle velocity. Particle velocity should also not be confused with the velocity of individual molecules, which depends mostly on the temperature and molecular mass.

In applications involving sound, the particle velocity is usually measured using a logarithmic decibel scale called particle velocity level. Mostly pressure sensors (microphones) are used to measure sound pressure which is then propagated to the velocity field using Green's function.

Mathematical definition
Particle velocity, denoted $$\mathbf v$$, is defined by
 * $$\mathbf v = \frac{\partial \mathbf \delta}{\partial t}$$

where $$\delta$$ is the particle displacement.

Progressive sine waves
The particle displacement of a progressive sine wave is given by
 * $$\delta(\mathbf{r},\, t) = \delta_\mathrm{m} \cos(\mathbf{k} \cdot \mathbf{r} - \omega t + \varphi_{\delta, 0}),$$

where
 * $$\delta_\mathrm{m}$$ is the amplitude of the particle displacement;
 * $$\varphi_{\delta, 0}$$ is the phase shift of the particle displacement;
 * $$\mathbf{k}$$ is the angular wavevector;
 * $$\omega$$ is the angular frequency.

It follows that the particle velocity and the sound pressure along the direction of propagation of the sound wave x are given by
 * $$v(\mathbf{r},\, t) = \frac{\partial \delta(\mathbf{r},\, t)}{\partial t} = \omega \delta \cos\!\left(\mathbf{k} \cdot \mathbf{r} - \omega t + \varphi_{\delta, 0} + \frac{\pi}{2}\right) = v_\mathrm{m} \cos(\mathbf{k} \cdot \mathbf{r} - \omega t + \varphi_{v, 0}),$$
 * $$p(\mathbf{r},\, t) = -\rho c^2 \frac{\partial \delta(\mathbf{r},\, t)}{\partial x} = \rho c^2 k_x \delta \cos\!\left(\mathbf{k} \cdot \mathbf{r} - \omega t + \varphi_{\delta, 0} + \frac{\pi}{2}\right) = p_\mathrm{m} \cos(\mathbf{k} \cdot \mathbf{r} - \omega t + \varphi_{p, 0}),$$

where
 * $$v_\mathrm{m}$$ is the amplitude of the particle velocity;
 * $$\varphi_{v, 0}$$ is the phase shift of the particle velocity;
 * $$p_\mathrm{m}$$ is the amplitude of the acoustic pressure;
 * $$\varphi_{p, 0}$$ is the phase shift of the acoustic pressure.

Taking the Laplace transforms of $$v$$ and $$p$$ with respect to time yields
 * $$\hat{v}(\mathbf{r},\, s) = v_\mathrm{m} \frac{s \cos \varphi_{v,0} - \omega \sin \varphi_{v,0}}{s^2 + \omega^2},$$
 * $$\hat{p}(\mathbf{r},\, s) = p_\mathrm{m} \frac{s \cos \varphi_{p,0} - \omega \sin \varphi_{p,0}}{s^2 + \omega^2}.$$

Since $$\varphi_{v,0} = \varphi_{p,0}$$, the amplitude of the specific acoustic impedance is given by
 * $$z_\mathrm{m}(\mathbf{r},\, s) = |z(\mathbf{r},\, s)| = \left|\frac{\hat{p}(\mathbf{r},\, s)}{\hat{v}(\mathbf{r},\, s)}\right| = \frac{p_\mathrm{m}}{v_\mathrm{m}} = \frac{\rho c^2 k_x}{\omega}.$$

Consequently, the amplitude of the particle velocity is related to those of the particle displacement and the sound pressure by
 * $$v_\mathrm{m} = \omega \delta_\mathrm{m},$$
 * $$v_\mathrm{m} = \frac{p_\mathrm{m}}{z_\mathrm{m}(\mathbf{r},\, s)}.$$

Particle velocity level
Sound velocity level (SVL) or acoustic velocity level or particle velocity level is a logarithmic measure of the effective particle velocity of a sound relative to a reference value. Sound velocity level, denoted Lv and measured in dB, is defined by
 * $$L_v = \ln\!\left(\frac{v}{v_0}\right)\!~\mathrm{Np} = 2 \log_{10}\!\left(\frac{v}{v_0}\right)\!~\mathrm{B} = 20 \log_{10}\!\left(\frac{v}{v_0}\right)\!~\mathrm{dB},$$

where
 * v is the root mean square particle velocity;
 * v0 is the reference particle velocity;
 * is the neper;
 * is the bel;
 * is the decibel.

The commonly used reference particle velocity in air is
 * $$v_0 = 5 \times 10^{-8}~\mathrm{m/s}.$$

The proper notations for sound velocity level using this reference are or, but the notations , , dBSVL, or dBSVL are very common, even though they are not accepted by the SI.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Particle velocity


text:
Hochdeutsch

Hochdeutsch is a German word which literally translates to "High German" and may refer to:

 * High German languages or High German dialects (hochdeutsche Mundarten), today mostly called Upper German dialects (oberdeutsche Mundarten)
 * Standard German, the standardized variety of the German language, which encompasses:
 * Bundesdeutsches Hochdeutsch or German Standard German
 * Österreichisches Hochdeutsch or Austrian Standard German
 * Schweizer Hochdeutsch or Swiss Standard German

title: Hochdeutsch


text:
Talk:Hawaiian Pidgin

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 September 2021 and 31 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hannahhreidddd.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 September 2018 and 31 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emilybeagle.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

History/Etymology
The most interesting part of pidgin to me is the word origins (etymology) of pidgin. Hopefully someone that has studied pidgin can contribute to this part of the page because people are going to find it to be the most interesting part of the article. Aloha —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe82493 (talk • contribs) 05:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Phonology
I am a student in a linguistics class. I am adding the sounds of this language for a class assignment.

Malcontributions
If you can't actually speak Hawaiian Pidgin, do not edit this article. You'll just introduce errors into it. Unsigned comment by User:198.148.166.5 at 02:06, February 4, 2006 True, dat! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.227.252 (talk) 01:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Help!
Eh, I nevah know Pidgin stay so complicated! I think I've probably got this article going to a good start, and touched on the basics, but anyone who wants to really delve into detail on this article, e.g. grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, etc....eh, chance 'em! :) KeithH 07:13, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Hawaiian Pidgin seems to be a dialect of english, rather than a separate language. (Unlike Tok pisin, which largely is unintelligible to a speaker of standard english.) To an outside viewer, it seems to be similar to Ebonics. What do you think?
 * Ebonics was developed by slaves who were brought into an English environment communicating through English with other slaves from different African languages (simplified history). The main difference between Ebonics and HCE is the fact Hawaii was not an English speaking environment at the time. Other than a few phrases needed from the plantation bosses they didnt need any English at the time. Dialects are developed completely different than Pidgins/Creoles. Dialects start with ONE singular language and then change (The Queens English vs Cockney vs New England English vs Surfer Dude) (Hokkaido-ben vs Aomori-ben vs Osaka-ben). Pidgins are created by 2 or more languages where the is no agreed upon "dominant" language, so someone moving from Japan to the USA trying to speak English is not speaking a pidgin, they are speaking broken English. When a pidgin is spoken by or taught to the children it becomes a creole. English started as a pidgin, became a creole, and is now a language.
 * HCE (Pidgin) is now spoken by people who are taught and tested in school to speak English, listen to English on TV and movies and so the amount of English words has grown to the point where it might seem like a dialect, and maybe some scholars who know more about linguistics than I do might have enough talking points to show that it is in fact, now, a dialect, but since HCE was developed so totally and completely different than other dialects, I dont know if it can be called a dialect, that is for a someone else to decide, but 80-90 years ago it wasnt a dialect. Because of the very strong English influence, HCE will most likely never become a language, but who knows... --Billy Nair (talk) 01:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Ho! How you call Pidgin a creole language? Its a dialect brah! I gon' get bold, and change da' category!

 * Wot!!! Like beef?!? :) :)  Nah...I can see your point.  The last thing I want is to get into an edit war.  Sure it's a dialect, as in a variant of English.  AND, it fits the definition of pidgin, when two or more language groups improvise a common language so that they can communicate.  Hawaiian, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, English..you can't get much different.  AND, since most locals nowadays learned Pidgin from grandma, from mom and dad, from the schoolyard, we've become native speakers...that's the point when a pidgin becomes a creole.  So just think of creole as the most specific term.  And as for intelligibility, just put yourself in the shoes of a tourist from Nebraska visiting the islands for the first time and overhearing two locals speaking full-on Pidgin...'nuff said.  :)  KeithH 06:04, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If Hawaiian Creole English isn't actually a creole, then why are there such differences in da Pidgin and standard English? Locals will constantly switch between both "dialects", (what linguists call code switching), and each language variety contains context bound information or social commentary about Hawaiian culture and social relationships. Will code switching prove that HCE or Pidgin English is really a seperate language from standard English? Why bother to switch at all if they're the same language?
 * The Pidgin you hear waking around Pearlridge sounds SOO different than the Pidgin you hear from Ni'ihau or the southern boonies of the Big Island. If some linguist from Nebraska only studied Honolulu Pidgin, they might conclude that it is just English with some Polynesian/Asian influences. If they tried to listen to some kid from Ni'ihau, they would cry. The number of times they would hear an English word would be so few and the fact that the grammar and sentance structure is so completely foreign to them, they would have a hard time convincing me that Ni'ihau moke was speaking an English dialect.--Billy Nair (talk) 01:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

try scots for unintelligible dialects
Well, I don't want an edit war either, so I surrender. I suppose I'm interpreting the definitions of dialect pidgin and creole language to mean that Hawaiian Pidgin is a dialect of English, not a separate language, so therefore it couldn't be considered a Creole language. I was going to prove my point by pointing out that if you want to hear unintelligible versions of English, then go to Scotland. (I lived there for a few months) But then I looked up scots language and the article acknowledges the dispute between calling it a dialect or a language. And they fall on the side of calling it a separate language.

Here's what they said about the dispute:

Whether the varieties of Lowland Scots are dialects of English or constitute a separate language in their own right is often disputed. There is little doubt that, had Scotland remained independent, Lowland Scots would be regarded as a separate language from English. This has happened in Norway with Norwegian. Norwegian, once regarded as a dialect of Danish, has been regarded as a language in its own right since Norwegian independence in the 19th century. All the same, the British government now accepts Lowland Scots as a regional language and has recognised it as such under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

--Frogcat 01:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure how much you mean by invoking Norwegian for comparison. Are you alluding to a Scottish language struggle?   Randall Bart    Talk   20:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Creole or dialect?
I would agree with those who dispute its status as a creole. As has been said, when compared to other creoles like Sranan Tongo or Tok Pisin, its grammatical structure is very much like any other English dialect. It might have been a creole in the past, but if so it seems to have gone through enough "decreolization" (by increased contact with standard American English) so that its creole origins are not apparent anymore.
 * Why not avoid the issue entirely and use the term polyglot? the grammar is substantially different, I think the point people are trying to make is that much of the vocabulary is similar. "Jesus wen go down" doesn't make any sense in a traditional english (grammar) sense, but the meaning can (almost) be derived from context and vocabulary. Avriette 05:02, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess you have to decide if it is "English" spoken in a different way than the standard (a dialect), or if it is a composite of many languages that start as a pidgin then stabilized (a creole). If you only hear downtown Honolulu Pidgin you might feel that Hawaiian Pidgin has incorporated way more English than the other languages so must have lost its "creole" status, and has morphed into an English dialect.  If you get the chance to leave townside and make it to the smaller towns or even to the boonies of the outer islands you might have a harder time convincing some that it is just English with a weird accent and a few non-English words thrown in for style.  As long as your argument acknowledges that Pidgin developed as a way for the workers to communicate between themselves and not an attempt at speaking English (not an official language of Hawai`i back then, and absolutely not the language spoken by the majority) you might still have a case.  The sentence structure looks a lot more like Asian/Polynesian that it does English and that is something that must be addressed, because no matter how many English words get incorporated into Pidgin, the grammar seems to stay, no matter where you live.  --Billy Nair (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Help?
Please see discussion here. It's gotten kind of ugly, and I would like assistance from somebody who is formally trained in linguistics, or at least has a better grasp of the subject than I do. I'm more of a hobbyist, and I know the terminology. However, I think in this case, it's a grey area. I would also ask that before making a quick judgement based on the nature of the article, that you think about some of the comments. I am fairly certain we're not talking about a slang here, as it's a constructed grammar, which is dynamic. I also don't think we have a pidgin. A dialect may be the right word, but because it is so drastically different, I have doubts about that. Really, I'd just like a chance to discuss the matter. I'll be placing this comment over at Singlish as well, as I think there may be people there who could help. Thanks. Avriette 15:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I might be of some help. I attend the University of Hawaii at Mānoa for linguistics. There is a research group on campus which specializes in the study of HCE called “Da Pidgin Coup”. I can consult their members if anything with serious depth is necessary. Otherwise, I can work from what I know of Pidgin both as a learner, a friend of several native speakers, and as a linguist with more than passing knowledge of it. BTW, I informally call it “Pidgin” with a capital <P> because that’s the term I use daily and with speakers. It’s not an official term of any sort, but it will suffice here.

 * First off, the old dialects of Pidgin that were spoken up through the 1920s were significantly influenced by Hawaiian. It was at the time nearly unintelligible to English speakers without a long period of custom, essentially passive second language learning. As the English speaking population of the territory increased, particularly with the influx of military personnel during and after WWII, Pidgin began to take on more and more features of English. What is spoken today is much closer to English than what was spoken in the 1920s.

 * However, Pidgin is today still not English. I offer the example sentence “How come I go stay come and you go stay go?” which is essentially unintelligible to native English speakers even when written in the purely English orthography. It means “Why are you leaving when I just got here?” in a rough translation. In English it is essentially meaningless gibberish.

 * There is on the otherhand a very obvious cline between what speakers often call “deep Pidgin” and what is known as Hawaiian English, the dialect of English spoken by nearly all people raised in Hawaii. The two languages share many features, such as the “downfall question” pattern inherited from Hawaiian, a lack of interdental fricatives, etc. Most Pidgin speakers today can shift at will between a nearly pure Pidgin and a nearly pure English to varying degrees, however there are still a number of people even in the bustling city of Honolulu who have only a passive knowledge of either Pidgin or English and cannot speak it.

 * The current theory that I’ve overheard in the hallway is that basically Pidgin is undergoing a gradual shift towards English, but that in the mouths and minds of many speakers this shift is not complete. As such, Pidgin, is still a separate language and not a dialect of English.

 * Feel free to ask any more questions and I’ll try to answer them or find answers for them. — Jéioosh 03:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

 * '“How come I go stay come and you go stay go?” ' haha, good stuffs!! I cant read that without Rap's voice in my head. (followed by the inevitable "Pardon me?")
 * I can see the shift from the old Pidgin toward a dialect of English as more and more people from the mainland move with their families to Hawaii and locals going to the mainland for school and such, even in my own family I can see it. I was raised in the old side of Laie, a small town but still a noticeable division between the the halves, "Old Laie" and "the Haole Side" (mainly based on the division when the dominant faith split into 2 sub divisions). Before my youngest brother was born we moved to the Haole side and although he can still speak Pidgin it is noticeably less thick than what me and my sister use, but still a few generations away from looking like a dialect of English.  --Billy Nair (talk) 09:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Portuguese connection
Though I feel it is valid to say that Portuguese has had an impact on HCE, I do not care for the examples cited.

To say that "You no can do dat" results from Portuguese syntax is making a massive assumption. In many languages the negation of phrases results from using the word for no before the verb (English is a rarity because of our modal verbs, auxiliary verbs and syntax reflecting them). Wo bu shi meiguoren (Mandarin - without tone markers - Chinese for "I'm not American.) -- the order would be seen literally as "I no am American." Now the Portuguese: Eu nao sou (norte)americano. "I no am American."

What can you draw from this? Both Chinese and Portuguese are purported to be contributing languages to the formation of the pidgin and subsequent creole in Hawai'i.

Also, the "dis-dat-dem" construction is referenced as following Spanish/Portuguese form - I assume the writer means phonetically speaking. In reality, the sounds of [theta] and [edh] (both written as "th" in English and respectively illustrated in the Standard American English words: think and leather) are both infrequent in contemporary languages across the globe. In Europe, the sounds are most common in English, Spanish (central Iberian variety), and Greek - though they are not limited to those languages worldwide, nor are they both necessarily present in any given language's soundstock just because one is present. I follow from this by saying that depending on the proximity of the sound to a more familiar sound in any other language (French, Portuguese, or Chinese for example), a given speaker of one of these languages will try to approximate the sounds that they cannot make when speaking English. So, let's say you're German, perhaps /s/ and /z/ respectively come closer to the sounds of [theta] and [edh]. In many Spanish speakers' versions, /t/ and /d/ (respectively may come closer. So, again, to say that only a Portuguese speaker would make these approximations is a fallacy of logic.

The last I will mention is familiar: the comparison of the "-da" ending and its frequency in English. What you have here is the coincidental and totally superficial link of modern Portuguese's tendency to pronounce an unstressed final "a" as a [schwa] and the fact that in several dialects of English, the ending "-er" is often pronounced without rhoticity - that is to say that the final vowel will be made often as a [schwa] and the final "r" will not be pronounced (other dialects of English modify this final cluster of "er" differently). Also, the examples cited do not have a -da ending in the Portuguese translation, nor related words. Brada (brother) is "irmao" in Portuguese, for example.

I'm just a former student of Anthro. Linguistics and a Portuguese speaker - and, therefore, I do not think my research and contribution would be apt for this section, but I urge someone with better knowledge on this subject to post something more empirical. I'm not trying to berate the contributer(s), but the evidence used to support the Portuguese connection is weak and often a popular convention in several languages. 13:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)13:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)13:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)13:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)13:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)~

 * I agree with what you have said. Although I was surprised of the example of ficar.  I'm not sure if that was mentioned in the book "Da Kine Talk" or if that was taken from my own website.  There were no sources cited.  I wrote about "ficar" on my website because I learned Portuguese and realized the connection. Mamoahina (talk) 02:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The Chinese connection is equally unsupported by the eample given: "Another word in pidgin that was derived from the Chinese which is also seen in America is "lie dat", which means "like that" but in Hawaii it is pronounced "ladat"." Clearly this is derived from the English words "like that" and is perhaps pronounced in a Chinese-influenced manner. Evelyn

I don't have time to edit the main page, but among scholars who study Hawaii Creole English, the influence of Portuguese does not seem to be controversial. In Jeff Siegel's 2000 article "Substrate Influence in Hawai'i Creole English" (Siegel is one of the linguistic authorities on HCE), he argues that in fact many features of HCE can be traced to Portuguese influence, and even backs some of them up with evidence of change over time - that is, showing that a certain feature isn't just similar to Portuguese, but that it was more common in the speech of Portuguese HCE speakers earlier, and later became more common among other groups. This is not as surprising as it might seem given the smaller numbers of Portuguese immigrants, because they did, in fact, come significantly earlier than the Japanese and Filipino immigrants, and unlike the Chinese immigrants that outnumbered them at the time, they mostly came as families, meaning there were more Portuguese children. Which meant that when the first generation of Hawaiian-born immigrants was born, it was Portuguese children that were one of the dominant ethnic groups in the schools, which were important to the development of HCE due to the ethnic mixing in them. In fact, Siegel would say that the three most important non-English influences on HCE would be Hawaiian, Chinese and Portuguese, and the influence of Japanese would be a bit lesser (and Filipino influence relatively minimal). That is, if you're speaking grammatical structure rather than borrowed words. So... the Portuguese influence on HCE is pretty well documented. -Mario —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.189.134.229 (talk) 14:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

 * That may well be so, but our Portuguese friend acknowledged right away that they did not deny the Portuguese contribution, they just pointed out poorly chosen examples. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 09:51, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the scholar mentioning dis/dat/dem and Spanish/Portuguese, I am primarily familiar with the phonetics and phonology of English, Spanish, and Portuguese, so I can see how someone else primarily familiar with those languages could focus on the [ð] (similar to *voiced* TH in English) and [d] (like English hard D) as allophones of /d/ in Spanish (and in some varieties of Portuguese). Pronouncing 'this' as 'dis' just makes a lot of sense in Spanish and Portuguese phonology, but certainly the same thing could happen with speakers of other languages. Encycloschmedia (talk) 08:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Huh?
I have to wonder whether it's a good idea to call "Hawaiian English" one of the official languages of Hawai'i, when the State Constitution at http://www.hawaii.gov/lrb/con/conart15.html just calls it English. I think it is reasonable to make the point that it may constitute its own dialect, but until that dialect is named by the state government in its constitution, it's probably unwise to say it's an "official" language. Bugmuncher 03:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolute NONSENSE
I strongly agree with Bugmuncher. Whoever wrote the line that "Hawaiian English" is an "official" language under "state law" needs to either (1) quote the law, or (2) delete the deliberate deception. (Writing is not accidental; it is deliberate.)

Speaking as a person who holds a Ph.D. in Linguistics, the claim that the alleged mandatory use of okinas and kahakos effectively creates a dialect of American English is absolute NONSENSE. It's equivalent to claiming that ee cummings created a dialect of American English by merely writing in all lowercase.

This article is an embarrasment to Wikipedia. It should be swiftly deleted. Agent X 20:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Instead of putting in a citation needed stamp after every phrase, I think it would be clearer just to put a box at the top. It's a little jarring to read the article with all those stamps and, to be honest, after reading your comments, it sounds like it was done out of spite. Perhaps that was not your intention, but that's how it came out. I'm going to remove the little tags and put one at the top of the article.--Stella luna 16:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

 * First, I did not put a tag "after every phrase". So you have misrepresented what I did. I put the tags at specifically selected points where a supporting citation is needed. It so happens that the article/stub lacks even one citation, and it makes numerous unsupported (false) claims.

 * Second, it is not "clearer just to put a box at the top", in terms of knowing exactly where supporting citations are needed. The box fails to pinpoint any specific claims, and for that reason, is inferior to the use of specifically placed tags.

 * As for "spite", that's an irrelevant, subjective perception on your part. Nonsense and false claims should not masquerade as a Wikipedia article, nor stub. Agent X 21:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Constitution of the state of Hawaii, Article XV, Section 4
The relevant text is quoted here:

"OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

Section 4. English and Hawaiian shall be the official languages of Hawaii, except that Hawaiian shall be required for public acts and transactions only as provided by law. [Add Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]" (italic added for emphasis)

1. As correctly noted above by Bugmuncher, there is NO SUCH THING as "Hawaiian English" in "The Constitution of the State of Hawaii". It is "English", NOT "Hawaiian English", that is an official language of the State of Hawaii. The stub/article makes a FALSE statement and misrepresents the law.

2. Hawaiian language is NEVER REQUIRED in any State of Hawaii activities UNLESS specifically "provided by law". There are NO STATE LAWS requiring the use of Hawaiian language. The stub/article makes another FALSE statement, and again misrepresents the law.

3. The mere optional use of a macron and an opening single quote (so-called `okina), by certain enthusiasts (zealots), does NOT create a "dialect" of English.

4. The claim that use of the two marks is preferred by the majority of Hawaii's people is the DELUSION of an "okina lunatic".

5. The stub/article uses the word "Standard" to describe "Hawaiian English". There is NO SUCH THING as "Standard Hawaiian English". Where are the alleged "standards"? Where are they published? Who has the authority to fabricate such "standards"?

6. The stub/article has NOT ONE reference, and NOT ONE citation. According to Citing Sources, "any material that is challenged and has no source may be removed by any editor". According to Verifiability, "The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to keep the material, not on those seeking to remove it."

Agent X 09:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Citecheck needed for Further Reading section
I checked a few of the resources that were helpfully added to the Further Reading section a few days ago. The ones I was able to find with my university library access were talking about Hawaiian Creole English or a Pidgin dialect, rather than the subject of this article, which supposedly differs in only a few minor ways (accent when speaking and use of native phonic symbols when writing) from standard American English. Because of this, I have removed those citations and will now add them to the appropriate article, where they may be more useful. I suggest that the rest of the Further Reading be checked by those with access to resources I do not have. Andrew Levine 23:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy and justification for removing content
The policy states: In accordance with Wikipedia policy, I am challenging and removing content from this stub/article which lacks citations to reputable published sources. Agent X 13:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The following content was removed by me. Agent X 13:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Hawaiian English is the standard of the English language as used in the U.S. state of Hawaii.

The following content was removed by me. Agent X 13:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Under Hawaii state law, Hawaiian language words and names (including the name of the state) are represented in full Hawaiian phonics when written in an English context, including the okina and the kahakō in spelling. Otherwise, it is the same as the American English of the continental United States. Hawaiian English is not to be confused with Hawaiian Pidgin, a dialect that developed among multi-ethnic local residents since the 19th century.

 * As a written standard, English with Hawaiian phonics is used in all state publications and widely in regional magazines and newspapers. It has a somewhat lesser impact as a spoken language standard, as a portion of Hawaiian residents—particularly those who were not born in, raised in, nor have roots in the islands—speak Hawaiian words and names with a more anglicized pronunciation more common to the continental United States. However, Hawaiian English still has an accent which is noticeably different from that of general American English.

Wrong?
Words ending in "da", for instance the words "brada" or "wada" which mean "brother" and "water" were contributed by the Spanish and the Portuguese; which are actually the only languages that have words ending with "da" at the end of them.

I thought of "soda" and "agenda".. probably many others exist. Can someone clarify?

69.84.125.242 05:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a ridiculous claim. I've removed it from the article. --Ptcamn 07:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Honda?
 * It is not a contribution of any Romance languages where nouns are either masculine or feminine. Rather, it is the result of the New England pronunciation where the final R and the R before consonants are absent. Mamoahina (talk) 02:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Original research
At first glance this article appears to be professionally written. But after taking time to read through more carefully I decided to tag this article as being original research. My reason for doing so is that, as has been previously cited, the author has made many unreferenced assertions, which makes it difficult for readers and editors to determine if the author's assertions are fact or just the author's opinions. For example, the author's claim that the "da" endings are derived from Portugues/Spanish is just one case in point. If the author can't prove that particular assertion with an accurate reference, then that assertion certainly should be deleted — as should any other assertions in the article that the author can't provide "da kine" (an acceptable reference) for.

<!-- (the following for anyone who might be remotely interested, and might be adding a comment)

When I was first exposed to pidjin it was called "broken English" by the educated, and "pijin" by everyone else. That exposure came at a time when the education system in the Territory classifed some schools as "English standard", i.e., the students English standard schools were taught standard, "better", English (reading, writing, grammar) than students attending non-English standard schools. Where I lived in Honolulu, for example, Roosevelt high school was an English standard high school;McKinley, Farrington, and Kaimuki were not. Pidjin was acceptable at non-English standard schools, much less so at the English-standard schools. St. Louis, Punahou, and Iolani were private schools where pidjin was spoken informally (most often in jest), but never used or allowed in class. Except for the isolated and rural outer island cases where Hawaiian pijin actually is an active lingua franca, I would classify Hawaiian pijin as being in the same class as African-American "eubonics" (African American Vernacular English). Like AAVE, Hawaiian pijin is spoken as a distinctive class identifier; the better one understands and speaks it, the closer one is identified with the class. Example: Haoles into "rap" music. Dr. Tomatsu Shibutani (a California AJA) in his study of demorilization of a U.S. Army AJA Intelligence unit he was part of towards the end of WWII, The Derelicts of Company K (University of California Press, 1978), describes how AJAs from Hawaii ("boochies")identified with themselves and set themselves apart from mainland AJAs ("katonks") by speaking pijin, which most of the katonks found incomprehensible. Shibutani says in his book that most of the katonks were well eductated compared to the boochies from Hawaii. Shibutani explains that many of the "troublesome" Hawaiian AJAs in Company K came from the outer islands, spoke pijin almost exclusively, were generally not as well educated as the katonks, and did not do well in the (Japanese) language school. Hawaii AJAs used pijin to openly insult unknowing mainland AJAs and haole Army cadre, officers and enlisted alike. I know that I was insulted that way many times as a young haole boy while riding on Honolulu buses coming home from school (junior high school and high school), and my guess is that it's a practice that is probably still going on today. FYI, I'm learning to read, write and speak (long mi ken ritim, raitim na tok long neo-Melanesian Tok Pisin) on a bona fide pijin-English project (if you're at all interested, see "Wikipedia:WikiProject Melanesia"). And if you're curious, I went to and graduated from Punahou, and also went to the University of Hawaii back when there was only one campus and Hawai'i still hadn't obtained statehood yet. I've a degree in Social Psychology from the University of California, Berkeley, and bummed around the western Pacific and Indonesia on research ships with the Scripps Institution of Oceanography (UC San Diego), and also as a merchant marine officer on oil tankers and freighters out there. -->

I'm sure the author was (and is) means well, and has personal experience with Hawaiian pijin. But the bottom line is that criticism has been leveled about the lack of references in the author's assertions, and the author appears not to have done anything at all to correct the problem. I gather from the discussions on this talk page that AgentX (whoever that is) apparently (and if so, correctly) added the "fact" template tag to several of the author's questionable assertions, which an editor subsequently (and unfortunately) deleted. Without adequate and appropriate references and footnotes to the author's assertions, I believe this article can be classifed as "original research", and if not corrected within a reasonable period of time, then I think the article certainly should be renominated as an article for deletion. K. Kellogg-Smith 14:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

 * It needn't be nominated for deletion, just rewritten. --Ptcamn 09:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I have seen Hawaiian Pidgin/Creole cited as a pidgin that has become a creole. It only takes one generation raised with a pidgin as their primary language for a creole to emerge.  The lines are fuzzy of course, but I understand Hawaiian Creole has a distinct grammar.   Randall Bart    Talk   20:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of pidgin word articles
No doubt there are/will be more of these. I'm noting this here so that there can be awareness of activity. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 23:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC) --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 23:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

NEGATIVES
I'm surprised no one decided to put the complex negatives of Pidgin here for the past, present and future tenses. Mamoahina (talk) 03:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * like "nevah wen go" and "neva going go"? They have a small grammar section, I think the negatives are a pretty easy way to demonstrate the differences between standard English and Pidgin, but unless it is presented by a linguist, it has the potential of looking kind of silly.--Billy Nair (talk) 20:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where do they use those forms? Is that used by the older people?  It's good to know that there are dialectal varieties too.  But I was referring to the common NO, NOT and NEVA.  I grew up on a small island (just under 7,000) and grew up on a pineapple plantation and the island consists about 50% kanaka so not sure if that's a good or bad thing as far as not being exposed to "neva wen go", etc.  If it matters, I grew up in the 70s up to the mid 80s. Mamoahina (talk) 02:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

White Space
Why is there a white space between the top of the article and the first line in the lead? Remove, if not possible, report to bugzilla.70.73.145.207 (talk) 10:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Reduplications as a feature of HCE
Currently, the article makes reference to the word "wikiwiki," which is from Hawaiian, stating that it comes from the English word "quick." While wikiwiki does mean quick, it is a word from the Hawaiian language with cognates in other Polynesian languages. Reduplication is definitely a feature in the Hawaiian language and other Polynesian languages. I'm not sure if reduplication occurs in HCE for words not borrowed from Hawaiian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzsnow3ater (talk • contribs) 09:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Erm..
" "Faka wat? False crack?" = "as soon as you're not looking I'm going to punch you in the head" " -- I think that's most likely complete rubbish. Remove? Sparkstarthunderhawk (talk) 13:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * not complete rubbish, it is pretty close to what it means. They didnt translate the "faka wot" part, maybe could have said "Hey, Jerk! Do we have a problem?" and put a comma after the faka part. as for the "false crack" part, that is what it means, to punch someone, usually in the side of the face or head, when they are not looking. I dont have a problem with it being removed, just saying it wasnt a horrible translation.--Billy Nair (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You got beef brah? You talk story yah? Dis small kine. 24.214.238.86 (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Portuguese/Chinese examples again
I read the article and got stuck on the examples cited for Portuguese and Chinese influence - just like some of the previous posters I'm sorry to say that most did not look very convincing ... so, after some thought (also considering the old 'citation needed' tag), I decided to trim down the section. As remarked by others, the negative construction could come from a wide variety of different languages and the same holds true for the 'one' for 'a' substitution - Portuguese is one possible source, but it might just as well have been Spanish, Italian, French or German :-) Now, maybe all these latter options can be excluded due to historical reasons, but then the argument has to be made that way, rather than just stating: construction X is like in (pick your language), ergo this must have come from (pick your language). In the case of Chinese we had 'haa' (which could be several different languages), chop suey (pardon?) and li'dat. If it had been the final particles 'lor' or 'meh', or the universal Malaysian Chinese 'lah' that would be pretty convincing (assuming the usage is similar), but haa? seems pretty universal to me ... Please feel free to reverse my edit, but please do also provide some stronger reasons for the connections made - otherwise, the article is weaker, it seems to me ... Hakseng (talk) 04:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hello Hakseng,

The term "Chop Suey" is very common in Hawaiian Pidgin English it is pidgin for someone who is saying that they are 'mixed', ethnicity wise. I looked up your "'one' for 'a' substitution" and I only found that the Portuguese out of those languages you pointed out used the word "Um" (The same word) for both the number '1' and the letter 'a'. James9871I (talk) 00:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

It may be an introduction from Hawaiian. In Hawaiian, the word kekahi can mean something close to a/an. The word is composed of the definite article ke and the numeral kahi meaning one. --Zzsnow3ater (talk) 23:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hakseng,

If you do not know Hawaii Pidgin English do not erase anything about this topic. As the above poster stated "Chop Suey" is a well known saying in Hawaii Pidgin English. Why would someone erase something when they do not know anything of the actual language? Ben986876 (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Zzsnow3ater,

I don't believe that's accurate. I knew a Hawaiian woman born at the turn of the century and she said that Hawaiians spoke standard English and it was when the non-British/non-Americans came is when Pidgin was born. Ben986876 (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

History
"Pidgin (or Hawaiʻi Creole) originated as a form of communication used between English speaking residents and non-English speaking immigrants in Hawaiʻi.[4]" This sounds a lot like they are trying to say most of the people in Hawaii back in the 1800s spoke English and then when the immigrants came they started speaking Pidgin. From what I know about Hawaiian history, a lot of the residents at the time that the plantations started bringing in workers spoke Hawaiian. The plantation owners spoke English, but few would consider these people to be Hawaiian "residents". Wouldnt it be better to word it so it sounded more like what really happened? The workers were all placed in large camps and had to try and communicate with each other, and since there was no official language (Hawaii was not part of the US in any stretch of the term back then and the Hawaiians were not a large percentage of the population in these camps) they developed a pidgin to communicate.

Plus, the [4] link is broken, there is nothing there to read to see what they were trying to say in that statement. I dont know how to show that this citation needs to be updated. --Billy Nair (talk) 00:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

 * See WP:DEADLINK. I've put a tag there. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

This Part Of The Article Seems Flawed
"Even today, Pidgin retains some influences from these languages. For example, the word "stay" in Pidgin has a form and use similar to the Portuguese or Spanish verb "estar", which means "to be" but is used when referring to a temporary state or location."

Anyone who is farmiliar with the Portuguese language would find that the word "estar" in the Portuguese and Spanish language is not used like it is used in Pidgin from Hawaii. But the word "Fica" in Portuguese is used EXACTLY like how Pidgin is used in Hawaii. Example: Portuguese: "Ele fica?" English: "Is he here?" Pidgin English: "He stay?" and the answer in Hawaii Pidgin is EXACTLY the way it is in Portuguese; Example: "Ele nao fica." English: "Hes not here." Pidgin English: "He no stay." I'm no linguist but I know this IS Portuguese grammar and a DIRECT translation from Portuguese to English. Ben986876 (talk) 23:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

This is correct. I don't speak hawaiian pidgin but was made aware of this particular nuance, so I came to see if there was an example here. It is definitely "ficar", not "estar". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.251.79 (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Hawaiian Pidgin vs. Hawaii Pidgin
There was some inconsistency in the name used for the language: Hawaiian Pidgin vs Hawaii Pidgin. According to Joe and Barbara Grimes, two linguists who live on the island and work extensively with the language, many proponents of Hawaiian want the term "Hawaiian" reserved for the spoken language. The name in the ISO 639-3 standard follows this convention, as does the Ethnologue. Accordingly, I went through the article and changed "Hawaiian Pidgin" to "Hawaii Pidgin" wherever appropriate (e.g. not in titles of references). One striking inconsistency remains, in the title of the article itself. If my changes are accepted by the community working on this page, then someone else can move the article, set up redirects, etc. AlbertBickford (talk) 13:01, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

 * I still think that would contravene WP:COMMONNAME. The guideline states “most common name,” not “name a couple prominent linguists proposed because it strikes them as more logical and regular and think everyone else should adopt.” Almost by definition, Hawaiian proponents are advocating a counterfactual situation; actual usage on the ground indicates extensive usage of “Hawaii/an Pidgin” both by speakers and investigators of the language. And in fact the primary name in ISO 639/Ethnologue is Hawaiʻi Creole English. Insofar as the laymen’s term Pidgin is used for the creole, both Hawaii and Hawaiian seem equally employed in reliable sources, if Hawaiian not predominating in non-scholarly references.
 * And calling them “linguists who … work extensively with the language” seems a little misleading; yes, they both have linguistics degrees, and, yes, after retiring from their other missionary work to Hawaii they spearheaded Da Jesus Book New Testament translation, a fascinating project, but that hardly strikes me as in the same league as, say, Sakoda, who has published peer-reviewed studies of the language. —Wiki Wikardo 20:45, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Joe Grimes was a linguistics prof at Cornell for many years ([]), and a member of the LSA (Linguistic Society of America) Executive Committee for several years as well, and has quite a publication record ([]). So he is definitely a linguist (his wife Barbara died a couple years ago).  If there's a difference between him and Sakoda, it's that Grimes published on general linguistics, other languages, and on pidgins/ creoles in general, whereas Sakoda has published a book on Hawaii(an) Pidgin grammar (I can't find references to any other linguistic publications by him, I believe he's not the same person as the Japanese linguist Kumiko Sakoda).  It's hard to establish how extensively Grimes worked with HP, but from what I know of him, it was probably pretty extensive.  Of course, none of this decides whether it should be called Hawaii Pidgin or Hawaiian Pidgin! Mcswell (talk) 16:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

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Back issues of The Carrier Pidgin
I found numerous back issues of the scholarly journal The Carrier Pidgin here in case someone is interested. Veverve (talk) 00:51, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Linguolabial stops?
Does anyone have a citation that specifically says the coronal stops in Pidgin are linguolabial? I can't find it in the sources cited for the consonant table, and from personal experience, I don't think it's true. I grew up in Hawaii, and [b̺ə kajn] sounds ridiculous to me.

Justin Kunimune (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Article title?
I know we prefer "natural" disambiguation to parenthetical disambiguation, but since it is not technically a pidgin but rather is something that local people call "Pidgin" while scholars elsewhere call it "Hawaiian Creole English", shouldn't it be either Hawaiian Creole English or Pidgin (Hawaii)? "Hawaiian Pidgin" sounds like something scholars would call it if it were an actual pidgin -- is it what popular media outside Hawaii call it? Because if that's the case, I think such sources should probably be given less weight, since they are more likely than not produced by and for people who both never think about this language and don't know the difference between a creole and a pidgin. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 05:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * did you see this Pidgin Hawaiian? --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 12:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not sure. The way this article's subject, the creole language called "Pidgin", is described in the Great Courses series "The Story of Human Language", it seems to be a development from a pidgin spoken by Japanese, Filipino, etc. immigrants, not native Hawaiians like that article says, but are these referring to the same thing? Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 03:29, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * To me, it seems the articles describe the same thing. I don't know.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, this article (despite its title) is about a living creole language, while the other is about a dead pidgin language. I would assume based on the title and the aforementioned lecture that the latter was the "ancestor" of the former, but that's not what it says. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 00:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I see. Thanks for explaining that. Yes, the other article maybe is an ancestor of this Hawai‘i Creole English. The University of Hawaii calls it Hawai‘i Creole. The University of Hawaii Sato Center calls it Pidgin, Creole, and Dialect... and the center's founder called it Hawai‘i Creole (aka: Pidgin). Here also... https://apics-online.info/surveys/26 it's Hawai‘i Creole. For this reason, shouldn't the article be named Hawai‘i Creole (of course mentioning "Pidgin" in the lead? Thanks.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 01:46, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Or the article can be named Hawai‘i Creole English.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hawaiian Pidgin


text:
Vermont Technical College

Vermont Technical College (Vermont Tech or VTC) was a public technical college in Vermont. Its main residential campuses were located in Randolph Center and Williston. In addition, there were regional campuses distance sites, and nursing campuses in locations throughout the state.

Founded in 1866 as the Randolph Normal School, the mission of the school evolved through time, finally becoming a technical institute in 1957. On July 1, 2023, VTC merged with Northern Vermont University and Castleton University to become Vermont State University.

History
In 1806, the Vermont House of Representatives passed a law creating the Orange County Grammar School in Randolph. The school provided education through the high school grades and by the 1850s its state mandate had expanded to include teacher training. In 1866, Edward Conant, the principal of the Orange County Grammar School, expanded its course offerings to make it a full-fledged normal school for the education and training of teachers. Later that year, the Vermont General Assembly passed legislation making the change official, and the school became the Randolph Normal School.

In 1910, the Randolph Normal School was selected by the legislature as the location for the Vermont School of Agriculture. In 1957, technical courses were added to the curriculum, and the Vermont School of Agriculture was renamed the Vermont Agriculture and Technical Institute (VATI). In 1962, VATI was authorized by the state to award associate degrees and became Vermont Technical College (VTC). VTC began awarding bachelor's degrees in 1993 and master's degrees in 2015.

For many years, the Vermont public colleges have experienced financial stress and chronic underfunding. Exacerbated by COVID-19, in April 2020, Vermont State Colleges system Chancellor Jeb Spaulding recommended closing the Vermont Technical College residential campus in Randolph as well as all operations/campuses of Northern Vermont University. Under the proposal, some of the Vermont Tech academic programs would be consolidated in Williston. The proposal was abandoned after public opposition, with the Vermont State Colleges instead announcing it would merge its four-year schools as Vermont State University.

Academics
VTC offered bachelor's, master's, and associate degrees. Its five schools included: Agriculture, Plant, & Animal Sciences; Engineering & Computing; General Education; Nursing & Health Professions; and Professional Studies & Management. The schools offered degrees in over 50 majors.

Athletics
The Vermont Tech athletic teams are called the Knights. The college is a member of the United States Collegiate Athletic Association (USCAA), primarily competing in the Yankee Small College Conference (YSCC) since the 2011–12 academic year. The Knights previously competed in the Sunrise Athletic Conference of the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA) from 2006–07 to 2010–11.

The Vermont State University Randolph Knights continue to play as of 2023.

Student radio station
WVTC, Vermont Tech's 300-watt fully licensed radio station, broadcasts online and locally at 90.7 FM. The station is located at Morey Hall on VTC's Randolph Center campus. WVTC is operated and maintained by the students of VTC through the school's Radio Club, and is financially supported by VTC Student Council.

CubeSat lab
The Vermont Tech CubeSat Lab launched its first satellite, the Vermont Lunar CubeSat, a 1U CubeSat on November 19, 2013. Intended to orbit for three to five years, the satellite was fully functional until reentry on November 21, 2015. Vermont Tech's CubeSat was the first successful satellite launched by a New England college or university. Vermont Tech subsequently aided in developing the flight software for the Lunar IceCube, a satellite intended for deployment as part of the NASA Space Launch System's first flight in 2022.

Alumni

 * Charles Bayley Adams, Randolph Normal School graduate who served as an associate justice of the Vermont Supreme Court.
 * Berthold C. Coburn, member of the Vermont House of Representatives, Democratic nominee for governor in 1946
 * Harry H. Cooley, Secretary of State of Vermont, Vermont School of Agriculture graduate (1913) and faculty member.
 * Alexander Dunnett, Randolph Normal School graduate who served as US Attorney for Vermont, President of the Vermont Bar Association, a member of the Vermont Senate, and Caledonia County State's Attorney.
 * Eugene Frederick Ladd, 1877 Randolph Normal School graduate who served as a brigadier general in the United States Army
 * Norman H. McAllister, member of the Vermont House of Representatives and Vermont Senate
 * Robert A. Starr, member of the Vermont House of Representatives and Vermont Senate
 * Larry Townsend, member of the Vermont House of Representatives from Randolph

Faculty and administrators

 * Abel E. Leavenworth, Union Army veteran of the American Civil War; principal of the normal schools that are now Vermont Technical College and Castleton State College, as well as Bolivar Academy in Bolivar, Missouri.

title: Vermont Technical College