text:
Talk:Whore of Babylon

Soviet Union
The paragraph that identifies the former Soviet Union as the Whore of Babylon needs serious work (and/or deletion). Rather than referencing a source that supports the assertion that the USSR was viewed as the Whore of Babylon, it instead references sources that indicate that Dispensationalist view "Gog" as being identified as the Whore of Babylon.

Problem: Gog is a completely different topic.

Further, the paragraph concludes with a disparaging (and, I submit, not NPOV) comment that the fall of the Soviet Union has caused Dispensationalists to revise their commentaries. Again, this is unsourced. (and, not true, since Dispensationalists still tend to view Gog as Russia).

I think that most Dispensationalists have tended to lean towards the City of Rome as the location of the Whore of Babylon, due to the Seven Hills/Seven Mountains reference, but I do not have a source available at this moment.

Suggestion: Delete the paragraph referencing the Soviet Union as the "Whore of Babylon." Bonbga (talk) 20:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Scarlet Woman
(Note: cross-posting to Talk:Babalon, Talk:Whore of Babylon, Talk:Prostitution)

At present the term "Scarlet woman" has three possible articles:

 * Scarlet woman is a redirect to Prostitution
 * Scarlet Woman is a redirect to Whore of Babylon
 * Babylon opens with Babylon — also known as The Scarlet Woman...

I would propose that both Scarlet woman and Scarlet woman be directed to a page giving links to each of the above articles. If there is no objection I will create the disambiguation page and change the redirects accordingly - does 48 hours seem like a reasonable interval? ElijahOmega (talk) 12:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Ishtar
Why doesn't this article mention the Sumerian goddess Ishtar? She's a Babylonian goddess whose cult is associated with temple prostitution... Hokie Tech (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

 * The article explains that it is about the Christian concept. Ishtar would be out of this article's scope. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I think not. The Christian concept is derived from somewhere, if explained/sourced properly to be a symbol borrowed from the post-Babylonian Judaism, transfered from its original Judaic despise of the Babylon imperial power to the Christian despise of the Roman imperial power, a derivation from Ishtar is quite a proper mention. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 08:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Page protection
Due to a complaint over problematic editing and deletions, I've protected the page temporarily in order to bring the editors to the talk page here to discuss their edits. Please use this page to bridge differences and achieve a consensus.  Will Beback   talk    20:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
It seems to me that the version preferred by 91.209.115.8 is better than that preferred by Willfults. The latter version, in the subsection "Roman Catholic Church", contains a poorly written, illustrated and sourced attack on the Roman Catholic Church. Scholarly views should appear first in the article, as they do in the version of 91.209.115.8.

In the version of 91.209.115.8, I think that WP:UNDUE requires trimming of the "Other views" section, especially the "Jehovah's Witnesses" subsection. It adds little of value to the "Historicism" subsection. If "Jehovah's Witnesses" is retained, it would be helpful to add some scholarly sources, preferably from the last couple of decades. Watchtower and Awake are a reliable source for what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, but seven citations of material published by Jehovah's Witnesses should not be necessary in this article and may be promotional or advocacy. Walter Siegmund (talk) 20:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd respectfully disagree with 91.209.115.8's version being better, although I would like to see all viewpoints accurately represented and sourced. Consider the section "Earthly Jerusalem" in Starting with the paragraph "In Jeremiah 13, Judah is warned that because of her whoredom, the cups of all of the people will be..." it's all original research. Moving up one paragraph to "For example, in Matthew 23:34-37 and Luke 11:47-51" that is also primarily original research with 1 reference which has no page, year and publisher. It's unverifiable. I tagged these sections before removing them. Likewise with the paragraph "The first to see Jerusalem in Revelation's Babylon were the French Jesuit Jean Hardouin " again no references, original research, unverifiable. Also the section says "Scholarly views", and lists only preterists viewpoints. That's POV. Like the other viewpoints are not scholarly? The whole article is rather slanted.

Regarding the comment in regards to my version stating.... the "subsection "Roman Catholic Church", contains a poorly written, illustrated and sourced attack on the Roman Catholic Church"  Scholarly  views should appear first in the article, as they do in the version of 91.209.115.8." ......

There are only 2 references in 91.209's version for that section, and it's debatable if those are scholarly. The other is a Roman Catholic defense, and the section is designed to discredit the historicist viewpoint and promote the above two viewpoints. In my version there are 14 references from various sources, from major organizations that actually represent that viewpoint like Amazing Facts, which is from a Protestant church (SDA) and the section properly explains the historicist viewpoint. Of course those who are slanted to the other viewpoints will disagree with the historicist perspective, but blanking the whole section as one user did is not in accordance with wikipedia policy.

Also 91.209.115.8, going around and blanking my other changes in articles without giving any reason is against wikipedia policy. I understand that you lean heavily toward the preterist viewpoint, yet censoring other opinions because you disagree with little or no wikipedia policy foundation is not good faith editing. 91.209.115.8's version of the historicist section is a poorly written and sourced attack on the historicism viewpoint. All viewpoints should be represented, not just preterists. I'm fine with the other viewpoints like Earthly Jerusalem being in the article, if it meets wikipedia standards, which at the moment in 91.209's version does not.

"If "Jehovah's Witnesses" is retained..." The "Jehovah's Witnesses" position should be retained, as some points laid out in the section have direct references to Watchtower material. Although if there are any sections without references then they may be OR and removed (or cited properly). Willfults (talk) 21:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I propose a compromise solution of working off the current version but expanding the Earthly Jerusalem section (with cited material). Also using inline tagging for any part of the Jehovah's section that may need sourcing or removing. Willfults (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree with you. The Catholic section is obviously an attack not a NEUTRAL PRESENTATION. And why was the Catholic Answers counter argument removed by the POV user?
 * The Roman Catholic Church denies the claim that it is being referred to by the Book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. Catholic Answers argue that in Rev 17:10, it states that the seven heads of the Beast are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while (Rev. 17:9–10) "If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet the Vatican City did not even exist at that time. Since the Whore persecuted apostles and prophets, the Whore must have existed in the first century. This totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the Whore. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist, so neither of them could be the Whore. Furthermore, Fundamentalists continually (though wrongly) claim that Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the Whore! "Catholic Answers: Whore of Babylon Why did the POV editor blanked this reliably cited scholarly section without VALID EXPLANATION?

Most Bible scholars (sources: Babylon in the New Testament, International Standard Bible EncyclopediaWomen in scripture: a dictionary of named and unnamed women in the Hebrew,Encylopedia Britannica) agree that "Babylon" is an allegory of Rome; perhaps specifically at the time to some aspect of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism), or even a servant people that does the bidding of Rome. That interpretation goes back at least to the time of Tertullian (Adv. Marc., iii. 13). This interpretation was adopted by Jerome and Augustine and has been commonly accepted by the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic New American Bible commentary,New American Bible, Revelation 17:5 footnote the evangelical Protestant commentary of the New International Version Study Bible, the Rastafarians and the Protestant commentary of the Oxford Annotated Study Bible all concur that "Babylon is the symbolic name for Rome" and that [1st century] Rome was the "type of place where evil is supreme" (Jerusalem Bible, commentary to Rev. 17). In 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch and the Sibylline oracles, "Babylon" is a cryptic name for RomeBabylon in the New Testament. Elsewhere in the New Testament, in 1 Peter 5:13; someBabylon in the New Testament speculate that "Babylon" is used to refer to Rome. This is bolstered by the remark in Rev. 17:9 that she sits on "seven mountains" (the King James Version Bible-the New International Version Bible uses the words "seven hills"), which could be the seven hills of Rome. A roman coin minted under the Emperor Vespasian(ca. 71 CE) depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. There are a number of smaller symbolic clues that some see as suggesting a link between Rome and Babylon — the Roman Empire in its military occupation of Israel, its repression of the Jewish nation and religion, its destruction of Jerusalem following Jewish revolts in 70 CE and 135 CE, and its persecution of Christians, would lend meaning to the imagery of the 'whore, drunk with the blood of martyrs,' as a wantonly violent and bloodthirsty entity.Babylon in the New Testament - 202.153.172.99

Well for one your source is just a copy paste from a website that doesn't directly represent most of the texts cited. For example, look at http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/B/BABYLON+IN+THE+NEW+TESTAMENT/ and I don't see anything in that reference that refers to the last sentence quotation of 'whore, drunk with the blood of martyrs,' or the dates 70 and 135. It's like someone desperately just referenced a random site because there were no citations in the paragraph. Also the reference http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/B/BABYLON+IN+THE+NEW+TESTAMENT/ is not enough to consistent "Most Bible scholars" as mentioned in the first sentence. I gave a reason for why http://books.google.ca/books?id=NIMam563-fsC&pg=PA528&lpg=PA528 was removed a while back. It's used to state "most Bible scholars" but the source also just states "most Bible scholars" without mentioning who. I believe I may have tagged that with a tag, before removing it. If you'd like the http://www.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp reference in the historicist viewpoint then I'd gladly add some "neutral representation" in the Earthly Jerusalem section as well. But wikipedia is not about debunking positions, it is about stating each position clearly. If we had counter points to every section the article would be massive and lack flow. At least separate the sections into different viewpoints for clarity. Again as stated earlier I'm ok with a section stating that people believe that Babylon refers to Rome, if it is properly cited and doesn't fail validation.

Also it seems like I may be arguing against just one person? 202.153.172.99 using words such as "scholarly section"? With 0 contributions besides this talk page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/202.153.172.99 202.153.172.99 can you identify yourself so perhaps we can follow the discussion better? Thanks. Willfults (talk) 00:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 * 202.153.172.99; Bible History Online appears to be a WP:SPS. "Self-published media—including but not limited to books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets—are largely not acceptable." Absent evidence to the contrary, we assume that the creator holds the copyright. Please see Copyright violations. Short quotations that are identified as such may be considered fair use. "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text that is used verbatim must be attributed with quotation marks or other standard notation, such as block quotes." Please follow this guidance.

 * Willfults; Google Scholar finds nearly 4000 uses of the "whore of babylon". I think a good article could be written. But, many of the article sources do not satisfy my reading of WP:RS, in my opinion. If the view of Jehovah's Witnesses is notable, it should be easy to find scholarly sources for that content. Google Scholar finds 60 citations for "whore of babylon" "jehovah's witnesses". But, crudely speaking, 60/4000 or 1.5% of the article should be devoted to that topic to be consistent with the guidance of WP:UNDUE or WP:SOAP. Walter Siegmund (talk) 04:52, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 * The protection has been in a version containing a non-neutral section on the Catholic Church. Simply put, the final paragraph of that section is acceptable and historical, while the rest appears to me to be advocacy of a POV. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

@Walter, considering your points I'm in agreement in regards to the Jehovah's Witness section. Perhaps I would allow more than 1.5% though but it depends on what the content is. The section does need some work, yet I am not qualified to state their position. Hoping someone else can help out in regards to that. Willfults (talk) 20:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church section
The pictures in this section are very POV, as is most of the text. Cardinals wear scarlet - who is it who connects that with Revelation 17:4? The same section appears in Whore of Babylon (historicism), which I'm tagging now. StAnselm (talk) 21:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

 * The scarlet in itself doesn't derive from the Revelations, but as a symbol of Roman elite (such as for example the Imperial power) a while before Christianity emerged. The Tyrian purple is on the borderland between scarlet and indigo. I cannot find the section you refer to, but I believe might have been the common street-preacher-sermon scribble from some unregistered-IP-moron, that use to annoy us serious editors. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 09:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Some of the citations are from some very POV Bible study. I'm going to take the step of removing the extreme POV statements that don't have a relatively neutral source. I also agree on the images and am going to remove them. They should not appear with the captions relating the Catholic Church to the WoB unless the opposing view is also mentioned in the caption, which would make the captions too clunky. --Ginkgo100talk 00:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I have tagged the section, although by now it has been renamed and even the plan of the article is, er, "strange"... For example, the section "Rome and the Roman Empire" describes the view that it refers to, well, Rome and the Roman Empire... So, what should a section called "Protestant Reformation" or "Jehovah's Witnesses" describe by analogy..? Looking at the version several edit wars ago , the plan of the article was more sensible at that time... Maybe it is worth to return to that plan? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Question for 61.6.163.30 in regards to Earthly Jerusalem section
Hey 61.6.163.30, I have a question since you know more about Catholic beliefs than me. I saw that you made a recent change stating that the Catholic Church rejects this interpretation. I know a lot less about Catholicism than you, but that is what I found also when reading the Catholic Encyclopedia(http://books.google.com/books?id=vJ78Vd4O9d4C&pg=PA861&dq=book+of+Revelation+95+catholic&hl=en&ei=W4u3TPrzNMWDcKv_mLoG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 861 - states "This is a clear reference to Rome").

My point is this interpretation is also rejected by the majority of Protestants (who largely hold to a futurist perspective). The Seventh day Adventist Church also rejects this. Along with Jehovah's witnesses (see their section) and Mormons (I'm pretty sure). So my question is what major denomination holds this viewpoint? If it is just a few theologians then it is WP:FRINGE. Also it is taking up more space than every other section (except maybe JW) and needs to be trimmed or removed per WP:UNDUE. Your thoughts are appreciated. Willfults (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Personally I'm of the opinion that at very least religious articles should be eternally locked from anon-IP editing, editors who believe they can use Wikipedia to promote their own minority opinion. I suspect that Mr IP won't answer, since self-styled preachers usually conjecture their own theories (WP:OR) on one source, and when meating resistance from experienced editors they bail out. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 09:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Ian
Hi Ian, The only change I'm making in regards to this edit is changing the word "many" to "some", in two sentences, and also changing the grammar and wording from "Ellen White" having to "some" having. As that is true as well. Lastly, I moved one section down in order, based on how many people believe in such. (forgot to mention). I don't see this change as significant and threats are not kind. You seem to be undoing all my changes on every page, because you have a grudge, why not let it go friend? "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient," 2 Tim 2:24. Willfults (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If the change isn't significant, why is it important enough for you to revert it? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Ask Ian that question :) The statement "Ellen G. White have been led to believe that Imperial Rome could not meet such a specification", doesn't seem grammatically correct to me.  Willfults (talk) 19:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

 * (Ack, tried to post just as I had to run an errand, came back to find that it edit conflicted and didn't go through)
 * "Many" is generally considered more than "some," so that's bumping the number down. The source for the Ellen G. White view is just Ellen G. White.  "Some" is plural, so saying "some" in her case is giving her more credit than she actually has.  I keep undoing your changes because you keep pushing an SDA POV, through original research, original research based on a misunderstanding of Latin (by the way, how is one document "various?" You seem to have a problem understanding the difference between singular and plural), and misrepresenting sources.  I'm not the first user to call you out on this and you left conveniently after I prepared a report for RFC/U (which I happen to have saved to a text file).
 * Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise (Proverbs 19:20), ...lean not on your own understanding (Prov. 3:5) You have had WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:RS, and WP:UNDUE pointed out to you over and over by multiple editors, you have shown that you understand them when it comes to other POVs, but not when it comes to your own actions.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Matthew 1:3)
 * Additional: It is possible to correct that sentence's grammar without giving White's views undue weight. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ian, Regarding the "some" vs "ellen white", I thought it quite obvious that some people disagree with the first interpretation listed in this article. Can't we agree that is obvious? There are three other opinions listed, held by many individuals, which all disagree. If you would like more sources to prove the "some" I can, but that is completely unnecessary. Likewise there are "various" documents from the vatican that state the wording in the article, but I only cited one, true. Again if necessary I can provide more documents, but that takes time, I'm reducing that wording to "An" for now so we can simply agree. Willfults (talk) 20:38, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

NPOV NO AGREEMENT THAT THE KINGDOM IS ALLEGORICAL
It is an definite violation of NPOV to call the kingdom allegorical. There is no scholarly consensus on the point of allegorical. There is no point of making citations to this point, as the variation in interpretation of Revelation is common knowledge. Interpreters vary on how allegorical they make the book, though there is general consensus that Revelation contains much figurative language. But what specifics are allegorical or figurative and what is literal, has no consensus. (EnochBethany (talk) 22:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC))

Reformational view
Two things for this section.

First, why does "Reformational" appear in the title? I thought the most neutral term was "Reformation" and "Protestant Reformation" only slightly less so. A Net search finds 2 orders of magnitude fewer occurrences of "Reformational" than of "Reformation". (Disclosure: I'm a Catholic, which is undoubtedly relevant to what I've seen and heard.)

Second, "The Roman Catholic Church denies the claim that it is being referred to by the Book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon" is marked "[citation needed]". Altho there are plenty of SEMI-official denials--such as the one from Catholic Answers on this Talk page--I'd be astonished if there were any official denial available! (It would, it seems to me, border on what TVTropes calls a "Suspiciously Specific Denial"; http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial .)

Would a rewrite to "The Roman Catholic Church has not accepted this claim" be so obviously true as to avoid the dreaded "[citation needed]"? GeorgeTSLC (talk) 20:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think "Reformational" is used because it is a historical designation. "Protestant" would be inappropriate since not many Protestants accept this interpretation today. Reformational is the correct adjectival form. But I like your suggestion of changing the sentence, and I have gone ahead and done so. StAnselm (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And as of today, it's back to the form I cited but w/o the "citation needed". I refuse to get into a revert war, but will anybody explain WHY there is one? GeorgeTSLC (talk) 22:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Popular Culture section missing
I noticed that there was no popular culture section despite the fact that the Whore of Babylon appears in the TV show Supernatural in Season 5 episode 17. References are also made in the form of a power up in the game The Binding of Isaac as well as season 6 of Dexter in the form of a doomsday tableau. Another reference is made by the tetrological remake of Neon Genesis Evangelion know as Rebuild of Evangelion where the purple and green trim on the Evangelion unit change to purple and red in the context of the end of the world. For now it just seems to be an agreed upon reference by the overall Evangelion community but I will not add it until there is an absolute source. I recognize this as something that may be a major edit. The Unholy Trinity (talk) 03:57, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Also the Shin Megami Tensei and Persona games depict the "Mother Harlot", a woman with a golden goblet riding atop a crimson, winged beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. It's the Whore of Babylon. 47.36.124.192 (talk) 09:41, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree, but only if there is something really significant. I don't think something from one episode of a TV show or from a game really makes the grade here. SnailsSpace (talk) 20:31, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Alternate (Islamic) View
Can we expand this article to include other alternate theories, such as a summation of the Eastern perspective, as per http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=3343:mystery-babylon-and-the-scarlet-whore Even if we don't agree with the interpretation, I would like to see a more balanced acknowledgement of such views, no matter how controversial. Thanks.110.22.66.102 (talk) 12:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Catholic church
I found an interesting argument that should be included in this article, when a RS is found.

"Many protestant and non-catholic churches interpret the Whore of Babylon to be the Catholic Church which is in union with the pope. Some of their views are questionable as the Catholic Church was the guardian of the faith and Holy Scriptures throughout the history of the New Testament. Why a church that saved texts, which would then condemn itself, is ludicrous." 178.167.148.81 (talk) 20:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 178.167.148.81 Yes, it should be added when a RS is found. Thanks! CookieMonster755 📞 ✉ ✓ 01:20, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

King James version 17:9 "Hills"
Where precisely is the the use of "hills" instead of "mountains" in 17:9 coming from in the King James version? After comparing various versions I can't seem to find any variations using that phrase.

Adumbrodeus (talk) 22:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

America the Whore
, it's time to let this one go. You keep re-adding this thing, according to which these biblical scholars see America as the new Whore of Babylon. The first thing one might ask is, so what? A second thing one might ask is what your sources are--and those turn out to be rather fringy writings including this crazy bit of prophetic science fiction and the self-published The Final Babylon: America and the Coming of Antichrist, by someone discussed and interviewed here. This is all apocalyptic stuff, which has no place in Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the sources are not high-quality academic works but devotional (no comments as to their value in that regard, either). If it was something like Brill Publishers, then yeah.  Coombes and Woodward by themselves are WP:PRIMARY and WP:UNDUE.  Secondary or tertiary analysis (academic!) of their school of thought would be fine.  Ian.thomson (talk) 02:38, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Holy hell, I'm gone six hours and miss all the fun. Maybe it'd be worthwhile to find good sources for this view, just so we can use attempts to specifically cite Coombes and Woodward as the litmus for finding more of Biblestudyprof's socks.  Real life is going to be keeping me from doing that for at least a week.  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Is the Whore the Mystery?
I wanted to ask a question, but first I want to state that I am a Christian (if it is important to the question). Is Mystery Babylon the same as the Whore of Babylon? I did temporarily redirect Mystery Babylon to Whore of Babylon, but I want to discuss this with other editors (Christian or not). From my perspective, Whore of Babylon refers to Revelation chapter 17 and Mystery Babylon refers to Revelation 18. Some believe that Mystery Babylon is a Apocalyptic sovereignty (country) in the End times, such as the United States. I wanted to know your opinion, and see if Mystery Babylon should still redirect here or create a new article for it only if it truly is recognized as a different eschatology concept. Cheers, CookieMonster755 📞 ✉ ✓ 01:03, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The Bible says "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT," which per WP:PRIMARY is enough to justify a redirect of "Mystery Babylon" to this page. Beyond that, we would need secondary or tertiary sources for any sort of analysis.  A new article would require multiple such sources that discuss the concept as distinct from this article (see WP:42).  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:21, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, two names but same subject. Thanks, that answers me question! CookieMonster755 📞 ✉ ✓ 01:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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" Family International View"
Is Family International's View significant enough to be listed alongside major denominations like Seventh Day Adventists and the Catholic Church? The Family International articles lists them as a cult, and their practices seem like they are based on radical or potentially even heretical interpetations of the Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1281:8301:8C99:920:DC24:27E7 (talk) 15:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I would vote to delete. 2603:300A:1400:D200:1064:A8EC:3F99:6CFA (talk) 04:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)Larry Siegel

 * Now deleted. Wikipedia doesn't base content decisions on whether something is 'heretical', but we certainly take significance into account, and without secondary comment, the evidence for that is non-existent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Mystery Babylon and the Whore of Babylon - Two Different Things Yet Closely Connected
I tweaked... "Female figure from a place of evil mentioned in the Book of Revelation... The Whore of Babylon from Babylon the Great/Mystery Babylon refers to both a symbolic female figure and place of evil mentioned in the Book of RevelationThe Apocalypse - the last book of the Bible. Her full title is stated in Revelation 17 (verse 5) as Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and Abominations of the Earth. 2601:589:4801:5660:6D2D:34FE:A5B:112D (talk) 11:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Eisheth Zenunim
I have noticed that, strangely, "Eisheth Zenunim" redirects to this article. Also, there is a section here titled "Kabbalistic views" that talks about Eisheth Zenunim. But Eisheth Zenunim is a demon in Jewish folklore that has no relation whatsoever with the Whore of Babylon, except the fact that both are related to prostitution. Eisheth Zenunim should have its own article. Mentions of her in this article are completely irrelevant and should be removed. JohnMizuki (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 * I noticed that too. The "Kabbalistic view" of something that's kind of, sort of, a little bit like something in the New Testament seems not to belong in this article.  I didn't want to boldly remove the whole section, but maybe somebody should. SnailsSpace (talk) 20:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this is a fine point. Both the Whore of Babylon and Eisheth Zenunim are female personifications of evil. The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 CE, early enough to have influenced Kabbalistic mythology, so it is not impossible that the story of Eisheth Zenunim is related to the story of the Whore of Babylon. But, no such connection is given in the text of the article, so I agree with the others here, and will go ahead and remove the content. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We could start an article "Female personifications of evil." SnailsSpace (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Check out She devil. :-) SnailsSpace (talk) 15:14, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

View in Thelema
This section also seems to be of fairly minor importance or interest, and is sourced only to primary sources. SnailsSpace (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Whore of Babylon


text:
Simon Whitfield

Simon St. Quentin Whitfield (born 16 May 1975) is a Canadian retired Olympic triathlon champion. Whitfield won ten consecutive Canadian Triathlon Championships titles and carried the Canadian national flag during the 2000 Summer Olympics closing ceremony in Sydney, where he had won his gold medal, and the opening ceremony at the 2012 Summer Olympics in London, making him one of few Canadian athletes to be honoured twice as Olympic flag bearer.

Biography
Whitfield was born in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. As a young boy, Whitfield played soccer, until he began with triathlon at age 11, honing his early competitive skills in the Canadian Kids of Steel program. By age 15, he was pursuing triathlon on a serious competitive basis.

Whitfield won a gold medal in the triathlon at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney, Australia. He got up off the ground after he and 14 other riders crashed in the bike race portion of the event and worked his way back near the leaders. In the foot race, he cut down the field one at a time then put on a finishing kick to take the victory. His final time was 1:48:24.02, which until 2012 stood as the fastest Olympic triathlon.

In the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester, England he claimed gold again. He ended up in 11th place at the 2004 Summer Olympics with a time of 1:53:15.81.

Whitfield was named to the 2008 Summer Olympics team and won a silver medal while competing at his third consecutive games. With a time of 1:48:58, he finished 5 seconds behind the German gold medalist. Whitfield's accomplishment was made even more impressive considering he was a distant fourth behind the lead three runners heading into the final kilometre of the run before he burst forth into the lead with 200 metres remaining. Whitfield, exhausted by his effort to get back into the lead, was then passed by the eventual winner Jan Frodeno of Germany at the end of the race. Whitfield competed at the 2012 London Olympics in Triathlon. After finishing 15th in the swim Whitfield was riding out of transition in his aero-bars when he was caught off balance going over a speed bump, falling off of his bike and breaking his collar bone, forcing him to drop out of the race. Although disappointed, Whitfield remained composed and tactful, apologizing to a fellow athlete who was involved in the crash. Throughout the Olympics Whitfield continued to defend fellow triathlete and Olympic competitor Paula Findlay from the media when she came last in the women's triathlon in the London games.

Whitfield retired in 2013. At present, Whitfield lives in Victoria, British Columbia and maintains his second residence at Salt Spring Island.

Awards and honours
In 2017, Whitfeld was awarded the Order of Sport, marking induction into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Simon Whitfield


text:
User:Chris Harris

Hi my name is Christopher Harris (Chris to my friends). I found Wikipedia through a link someone had placed from here to my website about Derby Arboretum and I have become "hooked".

I suppose I have now justifiably earned myself the title of "Local Historian" through my 10 years of research work on the Arboretum and surrounding area., I am proud to have been recognised at an International level as an expert in my field of work Since first joining Wikipedia I have had over 100 articles published in the Trader, Derby's (former) free paper, in their Heritage column, mostly concerning the Arboretum, Joseph Strutt and 19th century developments.

I am also a member of the Derby Heritage Forum, which is forum for local historians, and I have had the great privilege of sharing knowledge with fellow members, Derek Palmer, (author of over 60 local history books) Kevin Archer, Ron McKeown, the Late Charles Clark Maxwell, Lord of the Manors of Markeaton and Mackworth, the Late Don Farnsworth, author of so many books on Markeaton and Mackworth, and Denis Eardley, a local historian/ author. The forum has a considerable amount of local knowledge that we share freely with anyone who wishes to join us.

I recently I had a double page article covering the huge developments which took place in Derby during the 1960s and 70s, comparing them with today's developments. My father ran a construction company and was oersonally responsible for several large projects during the kate 60s to late 70s, my own knowledge in this field us largely based on personal experience of the 1970s.

I am a regular correspondent with the Derby Evening Telegraph, frequently criticising the lack of interest the council has in preserving our heritage and ruining our tourism trade.

I have lectured at an International conference at the Linnean Society, (Burlington House, London) on 19th century parks and pulic open spaces during Septemebr 2006. My lecture was endorsed by five International universities and experts from the Royal Botanical Gardens. http://www.derbyarboretum.co.uk/Conference2006.htm

I will also be making contributions to the history pages where possible.

Like all local historians, I may miss something in my research work so I welcome comments and corrections from qualified sources, where required. Wikipedia is the ideal forum for sharing and improving our knowledge.

title: User:Chris Harris


text:
Silver bullet

In folklore, a silver bullet is often one of the few weapons that are effective against a werewolf, vampire, witch, or other supernatural beings. The term silver bullet is also a metaphor for a simple, seemingly magical, solution to a difficult problem: for example, penicillin circa 1930 was a "silver bullet" that allowed doctors to treat and successfully cure many bacterial infections.

Ballistic effectiveness
Silver bullets differ from lead bullets in several respects. Lead has a 10% higher density than silver, so a silver bullet will have a little less mass than a lead bullet of identical dimensions. Pure silver is less malleable than lead and falls between lead and copper in terms of hardness (1.5 < 2.5 < 3.0 Mohs) and shear modulus (5.6 < 30 < 48 GPa). A silver bullet accepts the rifling of a gun barrel.

The terminal impact is somewhat speculative and will depend on a variety of factors including bullet size and shape, flight distance, and target material. At short ranges, the silver bullet will most likely give better penetration due to its higher shear modulus, and will not deform as much as a lead bullet.

A 2007 episode of MythBusters demonstrated a greater penetration depth of lead bullets versus silver bullets; the experiment utilized a 250 gr lead slug in a .45-caliber Colt long shell vs a lighter, 190 gr silver slug fired at closer range. Another MythBusters episode, from 2012, showed that silver bullets are less accurate than lead bullets when fired from an M1 Garand. Michael Briggs also did some experiments with silver bullets compared to lead bullets. After making a custom mold to ensure that the sizes of the silver bullets were comparable to the lead bullets, he fired them. He found that the silver bullets were slightly slower than the lead bullets and less accurate.

In folklore
Some authors asserted that the idea of the werewolf's supposed vulnerability to bullets cast from silver dates back to the Beast of Gévaudan, a man-eating animal killed by the hunter Jean Chastel in the year 1767. However, the allegations of Chastel purportedly using a gun loaded with silver bullets are derived from a distorted detail based primarily on Henri Pourrat's Histoire fidèle de la bête en Gévaudan (1946). In this novel, the French writer imagines that the beast was shot thanks to fictitious medals of the Virgin Mary, worn by Jean Chastel in his hat and then melted down to make bullets.

An account of a Jämte about were-bears in 1936 attributes bullets of silver as the method of killing. Swedish folklore tends to ascribe silver bullets as a catch all weapon against creatures, as wizards or the skogsrå, that are "hard" against regular ammunition.

In the Brothers Grimm fairy-tale of The Two Brothers, a bullet-proof witch is shot down by silver buttons, fired from a gun.

In some epic folk songs about Bulgarian rebel leader Delyo, he is described as invulnerable to normal weapons, driving his enemies to cast a silver bullet in order to murder him.

In popular culture
A number of fictional Wild West heroes used silver bullets as weapons, to symbolize their purity of heart. The best known of these was the Lone Ranger in all his incarnations: after solving the problem of the week, he would leave a silver bullet behind as his mark. Clayton Moore, who played the Ranger in the television series, was known to give away silver bullet props, made from aluminum, to fans in the 1950s.

Fantasy-horror has continued the use of silver bullets as monster-slayers.

In an untitled early Batman serial from 1939, written by Gardner Fox for Detective Comics issues 31 and 32, Batman declares that "only a silver bullet may kill a vampire," and swiftly forges such a weapon to defeat the coven of vampires who kidnapped Bruce Wayne's fiancée.

The 1941 film The Wolf Man, and its sequels and spinoffs, codified silver (whether in bullet form or otherwise) as the definitive death-dealer for werewolves, to the point where this weakness is often regarded as exclusive to lycanthropes. Notable film examples are Silver Bullet (1985) and Cursed (2005), with the latter being in part a self-referential spoof of the 1941 film.

The Strain novels by Guillermo del Toro and Chuck Hogan return the silver bullet to its earlier status as a weapon against the strigoi, who are broadly analogous to vampires.

title: Silver bullet


text:
Ray County

Ray County may refer to:

 * Ray County, Iran
 * Ray County, Missouri, U.S.

title: Ray County


text:
User:Cygnoir

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Hello! My name is Halsted M. Bernard and I joined Wikipedia on 15 March 2004. I created the original article for Guilloch%C3%A9, which has since been expertly edited by my fellow Wikipedians from a mere kernel into an intricate, fascinating entry. This is like magic to me, and I am happy to be a part of it. I also love userboxes.

About me
More information about me can be found on my website, cygnoir.net.

Articles created

 * Guilloch%C3%A9

Articles edited

 * Anne Tyng as part of Connect_@_Edinburgh_Napier_University_%27Writing_Women_Back_into_History%27_Editathon

Favorites

 * Fountain pen
 * Edinburgh
 * Iain Banks
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Special thanks

 * to User:Fluence, upon whose user page template mine is heavily based.

 My user name is a portmanteau of the French words for "swan" (cygne) and "black" (noir) because I love black swans.
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title: User:Cygnoir


text:
Angie Dickinson

Angie Dickinson (born Angeline Brown; September 30, 1931) is a retired American actress. She began her career on television, appearing in many anthology series during the 1950s, before gaining her breakthrough role in Gun the Man Down (1956) with James Arness and the Western film Rio Bravo (1959) with John Wayne and Dean Martin, for which she received the Golden Globe Award for New Star of the Year.

Dickinson has appeared in more than 50 films, including China Gate (1957), Cry Terror! (1958), Ocean's 11 (1960), The Sins of Rachel Cade (1961), Jessica (1962), Captain Newman, M.D. (1963), The Killers (1964), The Art of Love (1965), The Chase (1966), Point Blank (1967), Pretty Maids All in a Row (1971), The Outside Man (1972), and Big Bad Mama (1974).

From 1974 to 1978, Dickinson starred as Sergeant "Pepper" Anderson in the NBC crime series Police Woman, for which she received the Golden Globe Award for Best Actress – Television Series Drama and three Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series nominations. She starred in Brian De Palma's erotic crime thriller Dressed to Kill (1980), for which she received a Saturn Award for Best Actress.

During her later career, Dickinson starred in several television movies and miniseries including Hollywood Wives (1985) and Wild Palms (1993), also playing supporting roles in films such as Even Cowgirls Get the Blues (1994), Sabrina (1995), Pay It Forward (2000), and Big Bad Love (2001). Her last performance to date was in the Hallmark Channel film Mending Fences (2009).

Early life
Dickinson, the middle of three daughters, was born Angeline Brown (called "Angie" by family and friends) on September 30, 1931, in Kulm, North Dakota, the daughter of Fredericka (née Hehr) and Leo Henry Brown. Her parents were both of German descent, with the family surname originally being "Braun". She was raised Roman Catholic. Her father was a small-town newspaper publisher and editor, working on the Kulm Messenger and the Edgeley Mail. She fell in love with movies at an early age, as her father was also the projectionist at the town's only movie theater until it burned down.

In 1942, when she was 10 years old, the Brown family moved to Burbank, California, where Angie attended Bellarmine-Jefferson High School, graduating in 1947 at age 15. The previous year, she had won the Sixth Annual Bill of Rights essay contest. She then studied at Immaculate Heart College, Los Angeles, and at Glendale Community College, becoming a business graduate by 1954. Taking a cue from her publisher father, she had intended to be a writer.

While a student during 1950–1952, she worked as a secretary at Lockheed Air Terminal in Burbank (now Bob Hope Airport) and in a parts factory. She became Angie Dickinson in 1952, when she married football player Gene Dickinson.

Early television career
Dickinson came in second at a local preliminary for the Miss America contest, and that got the attention of a casting agent, who landed her a spot as one of six showgirls on The Jimmy Durante Show. The exposure brought her to the attention of a television-industry producer, who asked her to consider a career in acting. She studied the craft and a few years later was approached by NBC to guest-star on a number of variety shows, including The Colgate Comedy Hour. She soon met Frank Sinatra, who became a lifelong friend.

On New Year's Eve 1954, Dickinson made her television acting debut in an episode of Death Valley Days. This led to roles in such productions as Matinee Theatre (eight episodes), Buffalo Bill, Jr., City Detective, It's a Great Life (two episodes), Gray Ghost, General Electric Theater, Broken Arrow, The People's Choice (twice), Meet McGraw (twice), Northwest Passage, Gunsmoke, The Virginian, Tombstone Territory, Cheyenne, and The Restless Gun.

In 1956, Dickinson appeared in an episode of The Life and Legend of Wyatt Earp. The next year, she took another small role in Richard Boone's series Have Gun – Will Travel in the episode "A Matter of Ethics".

In 1958, Dickinson was cast as Laura Meadows in the episode "The Deserters" of an ABC/Warner Bros. Western series, Colt .45, with Wayde Preston. That year, she also played the role of defendant Mrs. Fargo in the Perry Mason episode "The Case of the One-Eyed Witness".

Dickinson went on to create memorable characters in Mike Hammer, Wagon Train, and Men into Space. In 1965, she had a recurring role as Carol Tredman on NBC's Dr. Kildare. She had a role as the duplicitous murder conspirator in a 1964 episode of The Fugitive series with David Janssen and fellow guest star Robert Duvall. She played an unfaithful wife and bank robber in the 1958 "Wild Blue Yonder" episode of Rod Cameron's syndicated television series State Trooper. She starred in two Alfred Hitchcock Hour episodes, "Captive Audience" with James Mason on October 18, 1962, and "Thanatos Palace Hotel" with Steven Hill on January 31, 1965.

First film roles
Dickinson's motion-picture career began with a small, uncredited role in Lucky Me (1954) starring Doris Day, followed by The Return of Jack Slade (1955), Man with the Gun (1955) and Hidden Guns (1956). She had her first starring role in Gun the Man Down (1956) with James Arness, followed by the Sam Fuller cult film China Gate (1957), which depicted an early view of the Vietnam War.

Rejecting the Marilyn Monroe/Jayne Mansfield style of platinum blonde sex symbolism, because she felt it would narrow her acting options, Dickinson initially allowed studios to lighten her naturally brunette hair to only honey-blonde. She appeared early in her career mainly in B-movies or Westerns, including Shoot-Out at Medicine Bend (1957), in which she co-starred with Randolph Scott and James Garner. In the crime drama Cry Terror! (1958), Dickinson had a supporting role opposite James Mason and Rod Steiger as a femme fatale.

Hollywood Leading lady
Dickinson's big-screen breakthrough role came in Howard Hawks' Rio Bravo (1959), in which she played a flirtatious gambler called "Feathers", who becomes attracted to the town sheriff played by Dickinson's childhood idol John Wayne. The film co-starred Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson, and Walter Brennan.

When Hawks sold his personal contract with her to a major studio without her knowledge, she was unhappy. Dickinson nonetheless became one of the more prominent leading ladies of the next decade, beginning with film The Bramble Bush with Richard Burton. She also took a supporting role in Ocean's 11 (1960) with friends Sinatra and Martin.

These were followed by a political potboiler, A Fever in the Blood (1961); a Belgian Congo-based melodrama, The Sins of Rachel Cade (1961), in which she played a missionary nurse tempted by lust; a scheming woman in Rome Adventure (1962), filmed in Italy; and the title role in Jean Negulesco's Jessica (1962) with Maurice Chevalier, in which she played a young midwife resented by the married women of the town, set in Sicily. Angie also shared the screen with friend Gregory Peck as a military nurse in the dark comedy Captain Newman, M.D. (1963).

For The Killers (1964), originally intended to be the first made-for-television movie, but released to theaters due to its violent content and entertainment value, Dickinson played a femme fatale opposite future U.S. President Ronald Reagan in his last movie role. Directed by Don Siegel, it was a remake of the 1946 version based on a story by Ernest Hemingway and the only film Reagan made in which he was cast as a villain. He viciously slaps Dickinson in one of the film's scenes.

Dickinson co-starred in the comedy The Art of Love (1965), playing the love interest of both James Garner and Dick Van Dyke. She joined a star-studded Arthur Penn/Sam Spiegel production, The Chase (1966), along with Marlon Brando, Jane Fonda, Robert Redford, and Robert Duvall. That same year, she was featured in Cast a Giant Shadow, a war story with Kirk Douglas.

Dickinson's best movie of this era is reputed to be John Boorman's cult classic Point Blank (1967), a crime drama with Lee Marvin as a criminal betrayed by his wife and best friend and out for revenge. The film epitomized the stark urban mood of the period, and its reputation has grown through the years.

Westerns continued to be a part of her work in the late 1960s, when she starred in The Last Challenge opposite Glenn Ford, in Young Billy Young with Robert Mitchum, and Sam Whiskey with Burt Reynolds.

In 1971, she played a lascivious substitute high-school teacher in the dark comedy Pretty Maids All in a Row which also starred Rock Hudson and Telly Savalas, for director Roger Vadim and writer-producer Gene Roddenberry. In the film, her character seduces a sexually inexperienced student, portrayed by John David Carson, against the backdrop of a series of murders of female students at the same high school. Pretty Maids All In A Row drew hostile critical reviews, and was a box-office failure.

Also in 1971, she portrayed the ambitious wife of Robert Culp in the television movie See the Man Run, and starred alongside Leslie Nielsen in The Resurrection of Zachary Wheeler. In The Outside Man (1972), a French movie shot in Los Angeles, with Jean-Louis Trintignant, directed by Jacques Deray, she plays the beautiful but corrupt wife of a mobster. In 1973, she co-starred with Roy Thinnes in the supernatural thriller The Norliss Tapes, a television movie produced and directed by Dan Curtis that in later years attained a modest cult following.

One of Dickinson's best-known and most sexually provocative movie roles followed, that of the tawdry widow Wilma McClatchie from the Great Depression romp Big Bad Mama (1974) with William Shatner and Tom Skerritt. In her 40s at the time, she appeared nude in several scenes, which created interest in the movie and a new generation of male fans for Dickinson.

A 1966 Esquire cover gained Dickinson additional fame and notoriety, her having posed in nothing but a sweater and a pair of panty hose. The photo became so iconic, that while celebrating the magazine's 70th anniversary in 2003, the Dickinson pose was recreated for the cover by Britney Spears.

Police Woman
Dickinson returned to the small screen in March 1974 for an episode of the critically acclaimed hit anthology series Police Story. The guest appearance proved to be so popular, NBC offered Dickinson her own television show, which became a ground-breaking weekly series called Police Woman; it was the first successful dramatic TV series to feature a woman in the title role. At first, Dickinson was reluctant, but when producers told her she could become a household name, she accepted the role. It co-starred Earl Holliman as Sergeant Bill Crowley, Anderson's commanding officer, along with Charles Dierkop as investigator Pete Royster and Ed Bernard as investigator Joe Styles. In the series, Dickinson played Sergeant "Pepper" Anderson, an officer of the Los Angeles Police Department's Criminal Conspiracy Unit, who often works undercover. The series became a hit, reaching number one in many countries in which it aired during its first year. It ran for four seasons and Dickinson won a Golden Globe Award, and received Emmy Award nominations for Best Lead Actress in a Dramatic Series three consecutive years. However, in a 2019 interview, Dickinson said that she regretted having done the series, since the remuneration was inadequate and it left her with little time for other projects.

Dickinson acknowledged her sex symbol role, stating "Are my legs exploited? Well, that's all I have got to sell". While observing that "essentially a woman's job is being a woman", she disliked repeatedly doing Police Woman scenes "where the phone rings while I'm taking a bath". In 1978, the same year the show ended, Dickinson reprised her Pepper Anderson character on the television special Ringo, co-starring with Ringo Starr and John Ritter. She also parodied the role in the 1975 and 1979 Bob Hope Christmas specials for NBC. She did the same years later on the 1987 Christmas episode of NBC's Saturday Night Live.

According to Dickinson, Police Woman caused a surge of applications for employment from women to police departments around the United States.

Dickinson and Police Woman influenced later female-starring, hour-long TV series such as Charlie's Angels, Wonder Woman, The Bionic Woman, and Cagney & Lacey. In 1987, the Los Angeles Police Department awarded Dickinson an honorary doctorate, which led her to quip, "Now you can call me Doctor Pepper."

On occasion during the 1970s, Dickinson took part in the popular Dean Martin Celebrity Roast on television, and she was the guest of honor on August 2, 1977, roasted by a dais of celebrities that included James Stewart, Orson Welles, and her Police Woman series co-star Earl Holliman.

The 1980s
Having done a television series plus the miniseries Pearl (1978) about the Pearl Harbor bombing of 1941, Dickinson's career in feature films appeared to be in decline, but she returned to the big screen in Brian De Palma's erotic thriller Dressed to Kill (1980), for which she gained considerable notice, particularly for a long, silent scene in a museum before the character meets her fate. The role of Kate Miller, a sexually frustrated New York housewife, earned her a 1981 Saturn Award for Best Actress. "The performers are excellent," wrote Vincent Canby in his July 25, 1980 The New York Times review, "especially Miss Dickinson."

She took a less substantial role in Death Hunt (1981), which reunited her with Lee Marvin, and also appeared in Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen. Earlier that year, she had been the first choice to play the character Krystle Carrington on the television series Dynasty, but deciding she wanted to spend more time with her daughter, she turned it down; the role instead went to Linda Evans. In the mid-1980s, Dickinson declined the role of Sable Colby on the Dynasty spin-off, The Colbys.

After turning down her own Johnny Carson-produced prospective sitcom, The Angie Dickinson Show, in 1980 after only two episodes had been shot because she did not feel she was funny enough, the private-eye series Cassie & Co. became her unsuccessful attempt at a television comeback. She then starred in several television movies, such as One Shoe Makes It Murder (1982), Jealousy (1984), A Touch of Scandal (1984), and Stillwatch (1987). She had a pivotal role in the highly rated miniseries Hollywood Wives (1985), based on a novel by Jackie Collins.

In 1982, and again in 1986, Dickinson appeared in two of Perry Como's Christmas specials for the ABC television network, in both of which she did something she was not known to have done before: singing. Dickinson later denied having sung on camera since the two Como specials in an interview with Larry King, which he conducted at the approximate time of her appearance in Duets.

In motion pictures, Dickinson reprised her role as Wilma McClatchie for Big Bad Mama II (1987) and completed the television movie Kojak: Fatal Flaw, in which she was reunited with Telly Savalas. She co-starred with Willie Nelson and numerous buddies in the television Western Once Upon a Texas Train (1988).

She was presented one of the Golden Boot Awards in 1989 for her contributions to Western cinema.

1990s and 2000s
In the ABC miniseries Wild Palms (1993), produced by Oliver Stone, she was the sadistic, militant sister of Senator Tony Kruetzer, played by Robert Loggia. That same year, she starred as a ruthless Montana spa owner in Gus Van Sant's Even Cowgirls Get the Blues with Uma Thurman. In November of that year, she walked off the set of a proposed This Is Your Life special for her, refusing to participate in the show.

In 1995, Sydney Pollack cast her as the prospective mother-in-law of Greg Kinnear in the romantic comedy Sabrina starring Harrison Ford, a remake of the Billy Wilder classic. She played Burt Reynolds' wife in the thriller The Maddening and the mother of Rick Aiello and Robert Cicchini in the National Lampoon comedy The Don's Analyst. In 1997, she seduced old flame Artie (Rip Torn) in an episode of HBO's The Larry Sanders Show called "Artie and Angie and Hank and Hercules".

Dickinson acted out the alcoholic, homeless mother of Helen Hunt's character in Pay It Forward (2000), the grandmother of Gwyneth Paltrow's character in the drama Duets (2000), and the mother of Arliss Howard's character in Big Bad Love (2001), co-starring Debra Winger.

Having appeared in the original Ocean's 11 (1960) with good friends Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, four decades later, she made a brief cameo in the 2001 remake with George Clooney and Brad Pitt.

An avid poker player, during the summer of 2004, she participated in the second season of Bravo's Celebrity Poker Showdown. After announcing her name, host Dave Foley said, "Sometimes, when we say 'celebrity', we actually mean it." Also in 2004, Dickinson appeared in the comedy Elvis Has Left the Building, playing an ex-mechanic and the mother of Kim Basinger's character.

Dickinson is a recipient of the state of North Dakota's Rough Rider Award.

In 1999, Playboy ranked Dickinson number 42 on their list of the "100 Sexiest Stars of the Century". In 2002, TV Guide ranked her number three on a list of the "50 Sexiest Television Stars of All Time", behind Diana Rigg and George Clooney (who tied for number one).

In 2009, Dickinson starred in a Hallmark Channel drama, Mending Fences co-starring Laura Leighton. It is her last acting credit to date.

Personal life
Dickinson was married to Gene Dickinson, a college football player who later moved into the electronics business, from 1952 to 1960, though they separated in 1956. During her first marriage, Dickinson became close friends with John Kenneth Galbraith and Catherine Galbraith. Her extensive visits to them and her touring when Galbraith was U.S. Ambassador to India are amply recounted in his memoirs Ambassador's Journal and A Life in Our Times.

Dickinson kept her married name after her first divorce. She married Burt Bacharach in 1965. They remained a married couple for 16 years, though late in their marriage they had a period of separation during which they dated other people. Bacharach and Dickinson had a daughter named Nikki (born July 12, 1966), who was autistic. Nikki died by suicide on January 4, 2007. Burt Bacharach died in 2023.

In 2023, Dickinson stated that she had a 20-year on-and-off affair with Frank Sinatra, and that he was the love of her life and "one of the most charismatic men that ever was". Dickinson had a relationship with musician Billy Vera in the 1980s and appeared in the music video for his single "I Can Take Care of Myself". For several years in the 1990s, Dickinson dated radio and television interviewer Larry King.

In a 2006 interview with NPR, Dickinson stated that she was a Democrat. She campaigned for Kennedy's presidential campaign in 1960 and supported Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964.

title: Angie Dickinson


text:
Eton field game

The Field Game is one of two codes of football devised and played at Eton College. The other is the Eton Wall Game. The game is like association football in some ways – the ball is round, but one size smaller than a standard football, and may not be handled – but the off-side rules – known as 'sneaking' – are more in keeping with rugby. There is also a small scrum or "Bully" of either six or seven a side. Goals can be scored much as in football, although there is no goalkeeper. But a team gains more points for scoring a 'rouge'. To score a rouge a player must kick the ball so that it deflects off one of the opposing players, or achieve a charge-down, and then goes beyond the opposition's end of the pitch. The ball is then 'rougeable' and must be touched – although not necessarily to the ground – by an attacking player to complete the rouge for five points. Rouges are similar to tries in that the scoring team then attempts to convert them for two points.

It is the only game at Eton that virtually every boy plays, at least for his first three years in the school, and it occupies prime position in the games programme throughout the Lent Half.

History
Although some sources claim that the rules of the Field Game were written down as early as 1815, this is contradicted by other sources, including the school's own archivist, who state that the first rules date from 1847.

Between 1811 and 1822, the field game was rarely played, with the wall game being more common: "[f]ootball was almost confined to the Wall game, and at most forty players, mostly constant", although there were also "occasional trifling games in the open [i.e., the Field game], rare in interval and rare in players". An article on "Eton games" in the 19 November 1832 issue of the Eton College magazine gives a detailed discussion of the Wall game (called simply "Foot-ball"), comparing it favourably to the game "played in the minor clubs of Eton, and in all other places, viz., that which takes place in an open field".

Eton field game was one of the first varieties of football to have match reports in the English press. The 29 November 1840 issue of Bell's Life in London featured a description of a game played on 23 November 1840: "the 11" beat "the 7" by one "gaol" and 4 "ruges" to one "gaol" and 1 "ruge". The House Football Cup was first awarded in 1860, making it one of the earliest trophies in any code of football. It was competed for annually into the 1960s.

In the modern era, referees are first advocated in English public school football games, notably Eton football in 1845.

Positions
The positions in the field game are divided into two main groups: The "Bully" and the "Behinds".

Bully

The "Bully" is most aptly compared to the forwards in the game of rugby and consists of, 3 "Corners", 2 "Sideposts", 1 "Post", 1 "Bup" and the "Fly".

Behinds

The 'behinds' are a group of players made up of two 'Shorts' and a 'Long'. The job of the Shorts is to kick the ball over the Bully, and allow players of their own side to run onto the ball, and hopefully to either score a goal or rouge. The opposing Shorts are trying to do the same thing, and so a kicking war often develops between the two teams of Shorts. This can be advantageous for a team with a fitter bully, as it gives them an opportunity to create an off-side "Sneaking", and then win a kick. The Long essentially remains in the goal-mouth, and his job is to kick back any ball which goes over the Shorts, or to defend the goal. He is not like a goalkeeper in football, however, as he cannot use his hands to prevent a goal.

Penalties
When a foul occurs, there are two main ways of restarting the game. One way is a bully, with the non-offending team having "Heads". Alternatively, for more serious offences, a kick can be given, which is similar to a free-kick in football.

Scoring
There are two main ways of gaining points in the Field Game, either a 'rouge' or a Goal.

Goals
There is a goal at each end of the pitch. The goals are smaller than in football but no player is allowed to use their hands to touch the ball. If a player kicks the ball into the opponent's goal his team scores 3 points.

Rougeables
If the ball comes from a defender and goes behind the infinite line created by extending their goal line, it is rougeable. The ball is also rougeable when a defender kicks it so that it rebounds off an attacker over the goal line, in such a case where, in the opinion of the referee, the attacker makes no deliberate attempt to play the ball over the line. A "contact" rougeable may also be created by an attacker if he plays the ball over the infinite line from close range while in contact (other than via the arm below the elbow) with a defender.

When a ball is rougeable players from both teams race to reach it first.

If an attacker reaches it first their team scores a 'rouge', worth five points and also attempts a conversion (see below).

If a defender reaches it first the attacking team has a choice of 'point or bully': they can choose either to be awarded a single point or to form a bully (like a scrum), close to the opponent's end of the pitch. If they drive the ball over the end of the pitch they score a 'bully rouge' (5 points) and as before can convert it.

Conversions
In a conversion the attackers move the ball down tramlines at the end of the pitch from the side towards the goal. The attacker has to keep the ball moving and avoid it leaving the tramlines. They try either to score a goal or to hit the ball off a defender to score a rouge.

The conversion in its current form was introduced by rule changes in 2002. It replaced the "ram", in which a column of four players from the attacking side lifted their feet to the sound of "left up right up left up right up, one two three..", then, to the shout of "ram", charged a defensive goalpost scrum from a range of 2.5 yards with the aim of forcing the ball over the line between the posts.

title: Eton field game