text:
User talk:Eirikr/2016

Special:Contributions/ВМНС

 * This Russian user has been creating a lot of Pali stubs, so this is a good place to look for entries that need cleanup. Somebody should tell him about how to format Pali entries here in case he enters more, but I don't have any languages in common with him, so I haven't tried. If any of you can manage it, that would probably be a good idea. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:48, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yep, I saw his entry at khīra earlier. ruwikt is ahead of enwikt in Pali. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 02:50, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Rune etymology
Thanks for your recent edit on my talk page. You may be interested in this discussion on runes too. FYI, some Polish sources claim the word runes comes from digging, and in Polish we have rycina, ryt, ryj that may share the PIE root (as well as the meaning). Zezen (talk) 08:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

中（じゅう）？
Is じゅう a normal on-reading of 中? The Readings section that doesn't mention じゅう and usage notes that mention じゅう at 中 make it unclear to me. —suzukaze (t・c) 09:39, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

 * It's a normal rendaku reading: ちゅう + rendaku = ぢゅう, realized in most modern Japanese dialects as じゅう. You'd never read 中 in isolation as じゅう.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 09:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Addendum: While this reading would never be used in isolation or at the start of a word, it appears that it has taken on an idiomatic sense. See also partway down the page here at Weblio: http://www.weblio.jp/content/じゅう.  Perhaps this should be treated as a kan'yōyomi, derived from the rendaku?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 10:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Hmmm, are there any authorities that classify readings? —suzukaze (t・c) 10:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, but I don't currently have easy access to them: monolingual JA kanji dictionaries often include this kind of information. Bilingual dictionaries often don't go any further than the basic on-kun categorization.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 10:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

:)
I appreciate your support and wish we had more overlap in this project during which we could collaborate. — JohnC5 07:15, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Sure, happy to pitch in. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 08:08, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Category:Japanese terms spelled with 心 read as ごこ
Should this category exist? It seems like the terms in there are derived from. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ya, that looks like a mistake -- the ご is just こ + rendaku. I suspect all the entries need editing to specify rendaku, and to thereby change their categorization to something like [[:Category:Japanese terms spelled with 心 read as ここ]].  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 08:56, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/90.12.49.204
This IP is pretty knowledgeable, but has a definite POV. We've had a constant battle with them over adding unattested Gothic terms, for instance. Could you look at their Japanese edits, including the translations, such as at farewell? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:04, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the heads-up. Checked.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:40, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Re:The etymology of tempura
User Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV has just introduced new meanings for Portuguese , including that of "Ember days" (the Roman Catholic holidays). The connection between "fried food" and the said holidays, discussed here, was already explained in the etymology I wrote on my edits to replace the previous one. The idea that tempura comes from tempero/temperar (and declined forms) is a widespread popular belief, but Houaiss, a prestigious Portuguese language dictionary, notes that this etymology is unlikely. Then it is more expected, but not certain, that tempura comes from têmpora. Perhaps we should include both etymologies? - Alumnum (talk) 00:45, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Thank you, excellent additional information. Re:, is that strictly , as in eating no food at all?  Or was it more the common Catholic practice of avoiding red meat, and eating fish instead (often fried)?  If the latter, the Portuguese entry could probably be clarified a bit.
 * Re: and related entries, the  origin is so widely mentioned in Japanese, it makes me wonder if there might have been some kind of confusion early on among Japanese speakers, conflating the two Portuguese terms.  I suspect we should probably mention both potential origins, with a note that  is phonologically a better match.
 * (Also, I see that the cooking blog talks about Spanish origins -- but the Spanish were much less active in Japan than the Portuguese. I'm inclined to view the blog poster's text as mistaken.)
 * Thanks again for your help researching this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:07, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, neither the blog text nor the entry I wrote imply that this Catholic practice consisted in eating no kind of food:

"But during the 40-day period of Lent (in Latin called quadragesima tempora), Japanese Christians had to give up eating meat. Instead they ate fried vegetables and seafood. And it's from that Latin phrase, referring to the Lenten period, that the dish got the name of tempura".

"When Portuguese navigators [and missionaries] arrived in Japan, they abstained from eating beef, pork and poultry during the Ember days. Instead, they ate fried vegetables and fish".

 * It seems the practice was introduced by European missionaries (chiefly the Portuguese, but also in significantly smaller number, the Spanish) and continued by the Christianized Japanese until the following strictly isolationist period, which expelled missionaries and banned almost all Western presence and influence in Japan. Therefore, it is also cogitable an origin from Spanish or even Latin, as the missionaries spoke the latter during their prayers and liturgy. (Anyway, têmpora undoubtedly comes from Latin tempora, then at least an indirect origin is deserved).

 * I came up with the notion that the tempera origin was probably wrong, but now I think that your suggestion that the Japanese mixed and confused the terms is more reasonable. It is still possible that they came from one, the other, or both origins. - Alumnum (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Ah, apologies for any confusion -- I did not mean that you yourself or the blog had implied that the Catholic practice involved eating no food at all. I mean instead that the 🇨🇬 entry states mainly just a day of fasting, with no mention of meat or fish or fried foods.  I think that should be clarified, if we are to point to the  entry in reference to the Catholic practice of eating non-meat dishes.
 * Past there, the Catholic and ultimate Latin origins strike me as quite likely, in combination with an apparent conflation with . ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:50, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. - Alumnum (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

塔
There's a module error hidden inside a Derived terms box in Etymology 1. ja-r doesn't like the text you gave it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:17, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks! Looks like it's been dealt with.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:56, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Japanese pronunciation of 日本
Hello. Concerning [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC&curid=28231&diff=37390043&oldid=37389049 your edit], I have some comment. As far as I know, the original pronunciation of 日 is without a final vowel even in Japanese because the Japanese tried to pronounce Sino-Japanese words in the Chinese way. I doubt the existence of the stage. See 中世日本語. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:31, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * @Shinji -- I agree that likely never existed.  Thank you for commenting, as I didn't realize that the etymology, as it is currently written, implies the existence of this reading -- that was unintended.
 * There is the term for compounds that produce nasalization.  Is there a similar term for compounds that produce geminization instead?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 02:31, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

There's still some problems with this template, particularly as shown here. Could you fix them? ばかFumiko￥talk 08:14, 3 March 2016 (UTC) P/s: Also, in this case I had to add an unwanted space to make it work. ばかFumiko￥talk 08:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Hmm, ya. I think Wyang is the one to help more -- he's been most active of late in working on . , could you have a look?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:31, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Could you please take a look at this case? Some part of the code was not referenced properly after your edits, for example the parameter lua. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * : I didn't even touch mora_pos. --kc_kennylau (talk) 12:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oops sorry mate, for some reason I missed the first instance of mora_pos. Wyang (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * : Would be so much better if you guys would point out the problem instead of having me find it myself. --kc_kennylau (talk) 11:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

 * My guess would be that the mora count was not working (j/u). Wyang (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

 * It wasn't and and still isn't, particularly on katakana. Here's another example of this error; as you can see it's the second more pu that is supposed to be encircled, not the small kana ya. The mora count seems to work well on hiragana though. Could you make thorough fix? ばかFumiko￥talk 02:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought we were using kana, not morae. I've changed it to dev=3, which shows the right info now but change it back if the count will work differently.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, so the acc parameter uses the number of the mora, but the dev paramter uses the number of the kana. Well that's kinda confusing. ばかFumiko￥talk 03:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * In the doco it says: "Position of kana with devoiced vowel in the input kana string (not counting spaces)." --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:32, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

水銀
You left a module error in the derived terms section of Etymology 1. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Looks like . ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:55, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

旦那
Arbeit is not English, I know that; I just wanted to add a little bit of a German taste since the heroine is German. Anyway, if "lack of punctuation makes for a terrible example", does that mean I can't take quotes from manga, cuz many manga don't use periods or commas for most of the time? ばかFumiko￥talk 04:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Long passages without punctuation are difficult to read in running English text, and as such, they are not optimal illustrations of term use. A quick search of Google Books provides plenty of examples that are better suited to a text-only environment.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

オハイオ州
I'm sure your Japanese is superb, but are you sure you know what you did at オハイオ州? Did you really read the manga and know exactly the context? I for one despise literal translation and always go with something more natural-sounding (which may not be exactly correct word by word), and even though I've read the manga, I don't understand what you meant with "What's up with you.". I'd like to know what you had in mind. ばかFumiko￥talk 04:55, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * As presented on the entry, this appears to be a dialog between two people. The last quote then would be the same person who started the dialog, the one who already knows how to say "Ohio".  As you'd previously translated, So dat's how ya say it, it sounded more like the "dumb" person than the "smart" one explaining the word.  What's up with you is the kind of thing the "smart" one would say in a two-person manzai-esque routine in English, such as, or.
 * That said, it appears that I confused you about as much as you confused me, suggesting that this whole example text should probably be either simplified or replaced. I've trimmed it for now to just the bit showing use of the headword term.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

 * "it sounded more like the "dumb" person" - Exactly the point of that conversation. After a few failed attempts at pronouncing the English name, he just goes with "Ohayo". He's not some sort of smart ass or anything, he's a funny man (and a little "dumb" of course) and his confusion is the whole point of the chapter. Anyway, I'd rather you removed it entirely than leave one out-of-place line like that. ばかFumiko￥talk 11:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting. If that last line was the "dumb" person again, it would have been clearer without the additional break -- so that the なーんちゃって would be on the same line as the preceding おはよ？.  In any two-person dialog, breaks like that generally mean a switch to the other person.
 * And regarding quotes, the point is to show the headword term in use, and in that regard, the single line was not out of place. But this term is straightforward enough that there's no strong need for a quote or usage example.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Keep in mind that a conversation doesn't necessarily happen between two people. I said it's out of place because, come on, what would it "illustrate" on its own. ばかFumiko￥talk 05:05, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * a conversation doesn't necessarily happen between two people -- indeed, which is why earlier in this thread I explained that as presented on the entry, this appears to be a dialog between two people. If the quote was a dialog between more than two people, it should have been more specific.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * what would it "illustrate" on its own -- usage of the term in a Japanese sentence. That's rather the point of quotes and usage examples.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

It's chiisana, not chīsana
Need proof? (I suppose we're using Hepburn, aren't we?). More proof? Just look for ちいさな in the Kenkyusha's dictionary. ばかFumiko￥talk 12:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Okay, I just read an earlier discussion. Basically you guys are making rules that you're pleased with, rather than follow a standard. Whatever, I guess. ばかFumiko￥talk 12:45, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

 * If, in future, another long-standing editor makes a change that you don't understand, please ask before assuming incompetence. Chances are high that there's a good reason for the change.
 * And we are following a standard. It just happens to be a different standard than the one you're apparently used to.  Modified Hepburn romanization itself is "made-up rules", and rather inconsistently made-up rules at that.  After discussion here, we came to a consensus view that using macrons for all single-morpheme long vowels except i didn't make a lot of sense, so we opted to be more consistent and less idiosyncratic than Modified Hepburn.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Got it. It was baffling to me also, cuz I couldn't believe you of all people would have made such a simple mistake, which is why I then searched for related discussions on that. Not that I'm opposed to ī or anything, cuz I agree that making ii an exception doesn't make sense. ばかFumiko￥talk 03:23, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Conjugation of verbs with する in page title
Is there anything one can do about pages like お辞儀をする? produces a monstrous " ". —suzukaze (t・c) 05:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure that page even merits existence -- 辞儀 is a noun and a する verb, and the お on front is just your basic honorific. The interstitial を shows that this is a phrase and not a verb, and given the semantics, and the fact that this is not idiomatic, not lexicalized, this is thus an SOP construction.  I'd say delete, and ensure that the  entry is correct and complete.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree. But even so, there are other entries like 気がする (ki ga suru) and 目にする (me ni suru). 気にする (ki ni suru) seems to have the table as plain wikicode but this seems unsatisfactory to me. —suzukaze (t・c) 06:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Browsers and accelerator keys
Continuing from WT:GP: Equinox ◑ 01:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Ctrl+W closes the current tab (or the entire app if only one tab is left, unlike the traditional MDI app, which would remain open with an empty workspace). Ctrl+Shift+W closes the whole thing, so is redundant to Alt+F4, and still accidentally hittable, especially if you're messing about with tabs at high speed. (I also use Ctrl+(Shift+)F4 a lot to flip around and revisit and close tabs, so that's probably where I slip up.)
 * It's a while since I did proper Windows development but I am pretty certain that Ctrl+Q was never a standard quit/close key.
 * Ctrl+R will reload the current page and wipe any form data. Alt+O doesn't seem to. When I press Alt+E it opens the standard Chrome menu (no doubt because of users who remember the shortcut for the E dit menu). Ctrl+E sets focus to the address bar (weird! why?).

 * Ctrl+E for me sets focus to the address bar, with a single ? to the left of the cursor. Quite odd indeed.  In Firefox, it sets the focus to the separate Search text field, so perhaps this is just Chrome's analog for that behavior.
 * You probably already know this one, but just in case -- Ctrl+Shift+T re-opens the last-closed browser tab. That one's been a godsend for me.  :)
 * With your testing results, I'm left puzzled as to what combo has caused the reload. I know about F5, and that's far enough away from normally typed keys that I have trouble imagining that I'm hitting that one by accident.  Ah, well.  Thanks to Yair's snippet, I've disabled these accelerators anyway, so I'm spared the frustration of vanishing editor-box content.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

 * I found something about Ctrl+E here . It seems to be "forcing a search" (not an in-page find!): I suppose this might be useful if you want to search for (say) the word "dog", without getting history suggestions for a previously visited site dog.com, or something? I'm too old... Equinox ◑ 01:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm too old... -- I can sympathize. :)  Thanks for the additional detail!  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:00, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

megszámlál
Hi Eirikr, the verbal prefix indicates perfective action in most of the cases. Since there are so many meg- verbs, it makes more sense to have the information at the verbal prefix entry. For example: Let me know if this answered your question. --Panda10 (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * számlálom a pénzt - I am counting the money (indicates the process, but not necessarily the completion)
 * számláltam a pénzt - I was counting the money
 * megszámlálom a pénzt - I count the money/I will count the money (indicates that the action will be completed)
 * megszámláltam a pénzt - I'd counted the money (I completed the action)

 * Thank you, Panda10. So the meg- prefix adds a sense of  or ?  If so, something to this effect should probably be added to the English definition line.  As it currently stands,  and  have identical definitions of to, but it sounds like the meanings in Hungarian are not identical.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:48, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I will work more on the definition. Take a look at this blog entry. It talks about verbal prefixes, including meg-: Hungarian Grammar for Beginners. --Panda10 (talk) 21:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

バイオリン
I won't argue with you about how "clearly common" it is. I just wanna say I was tryna be consistent as ヴァイオリン is the name of the Wikipedia article page. ばかFumiko￥talk 04:00, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is happy to use neologisms in a way that we aren't. Wiktionary lemma forms thus not uncommonly deviate from Wikipedia page titles. A quick Google search of the entire web quickly shows which form is more common:
 * : 1,320,000 hits
 * : 482,000 hits
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Again, I said I'm not concerned about how "clearly common" it is. If that's the way it should go, cool. ばかFumiko￥talk 04:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

 * To be more explicit, please check for usage patterns before changing one lemma form for another. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:52, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

ピアノ
I'm confused now. So now Kokugo Dai Jiten is not enough for you? ばかFumiko￥talk 04:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

 * No, you were making a mess of the entry: the etymology was confusing and hard to read, and the "shortfor" piece is unnecessary and incorrect. Have a look at it now, I've folded in what I think you were trying to add.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:51, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

盲目
Module errors hidden by the Derived terms box. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:50, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:10, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Wasei eigo template
I made it so the template doesn’t need to have a sort parameter (like when there is a on the page. That’s why I changed the documentation. —britannic124 (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Aha, that's now more clear, thank you! However,  can only safely be used on pages that have non-kanji elements to the spelling -- kanji-only terms could also have Chinese etc., and  would screw those up.  Perhaps you could rework the documentation to explain that?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:09, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm wanting to talk about refferences
Hello, I'm IP user blocked and reverted by you because had original reserch on etymology. Please allow my awkwardness of English because I'm not native speaker, and ask you a question. Are requirements for secondary sources wanted to write a hypothesys in this wiki, same as Wikipedia's? Then I know some sources for some of written by me.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I apologize for the inconvenience of blocking you. Please understand that Wiktionary has much fewer editors than Wikipedia, making it much more difficult to respond to edits that appear doubtful.
 * Thank you for writing here, and for creating an account. Communication is much easier with named accounts.
 * Regarding etymologies, sources can help. One additional consideration is how mainstream a theory is.  I could say that Japanese  is possibly cognate with Hebrew, but this is not a mainstream theory, and thus other editors would be correct to remove such content.
 * I noticed that you added a link to James Patrie's paper on "The Genetic Relationship of the Ainu Language". I am now reading through that paper.  I have run into a number of troubling issues with the paper; please see here for a discussion of some of them.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * PS: I wrote this last night, but I forgot to hit Save page -- apologies for the delay in replying. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Thank a lot for your reply. Don't mind for the forgetting to save(セーブミスなら仕方ないですよ). Relativeness of Goyim and Gaijin is nice joke. NYEH HEH HEH :)
 * About the words you written on User talk:Wyang, I'll try to find reliable souces as far as possible. If there aren't any sources writen or reviewed by the experts I found, then I can't write anything on the word's page, because of becoming original reserch to be forbidden.(可能な限り語源に関する説のソースを探しますが、見つけられない場合は独自研究なのでその単語については何もしないつもりです. )
 * And I understand your critique to Tyrone, 1978. IMO through there are some fallacies included, that doesn't mean always that all contents of the thesis are wrong. At least in the comparison of numerals in Ainu and Korean I refferred, there are 4 pairs of numerals in both language have correspondence in their places of articulation of consonants. (because 6-9 in Ainu are formed by the "subtraction method(減数法)", only 1-5 are virtually conparable) Being so hard to be a coincidence, I supposed to Ainu-Koreanic ethmological theory in numerals is at least worth introducing as an linguist's opinion. In addition, I found an another study about proximity between Ainu and Korean: According to this reserch by Yasumoto, 1978, between Horobetsu dialect of Ainu and Middle Korean is closer than between both of them and Old Japanese. If they allow to write about etymological relationships between Japanese and Korean (plus Goguryeo and Baekje), also between Ainu and Korean is includible, isn't it?(日本語と朝鮮語（加えて高句麗語と百済語）の間の語源関係に関する説をこのウィキに記すことが許されるならそれよりも近いという研究のあるアイヌ語と朝鮮語の間に関しても記すべきです. )--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 20:50, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Oo, very interesting.
 * One thought -- there is a lot of research into Japanese, Korean, and Ainu origins, but there is not a lot of consensus. Consequently, it can be difficult to find a theory that is mainstream enough to put on the main entry page.  Perhaps we could use the Talk page for each entry as a place to put some of this research, and as we get more authors that agree with each other, we can "graduate" a theory to the main entry page?  What do you think?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That's great idea! To gather published theories in wiktionary pages, users can find etymological hypotheses about the word conviniently.(既存の仮説を一つのページにまとめておけるのなら調べる側として非常に便利になります. ) Only because it's not Wiktionary's business to decide what is the true theory and the false if there are multiple theories.（注意したいのはどの説が真実かの軍配を上げる場所ではないということ. ） I supposed to avoid stating of support specific viewpoints (e.g. "existence of Altaic language family", "one-sided propagation of the words" and "Argument of that Japanese is came from amalgamation of Altaic and Austronesian"). (特定の説（例えば「アルタイ語族の実在」「一方的な単語の伝播」「日本語はアルタイと南島のアマルガムだという主張」など）を支持する書き方は避けなければなりません. ) Etymologial relationships between East Asian Languages are far more complicated than what researchers used to thought about.(実際の東アジア言語間の語源関係はかつて思われていたよりもずっと複雑です. ) It's probably better way for NPOV to list the theories and leave judgments to them, to the readers.(諸説あればそれを書き連ね、判断は読者に任せるのが中立的な観点によいとおもいます. )
 * Well, do you know Sergei Starostin's databases?: About Altaic theory, this will help us much.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

頂きます usage notes
is only meant to be used in lists, isn’t it? —britannic124 (talk) 14:24, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

 * @britannic124 -- I'm not aware of any such restriction. So long as the template is useful, use it.  :)
 * The main distinction with and  has to do with italicization of terms in scripts like Roman or Cyrillic.  For Japanese, this is irrelevant, and  is one step further away from, with lots of useful extensions that are specifically helpful for Japanese terms.
 * (FWIW, the on-screen output of was pixel-perfect identical to what you'd replaced it with, and the replacement was much grottier wikicode, so  is preferable.)
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:51, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Etymologies
Hi Eirikr, when you add glosses to suffixes, I've noticed that instead of "noun suffix", "adjective suffix", and "verb suffix" you prefer to use "nominalizing suffix", "adjectivizing suffix", and "verbalizing suffix", respectively. A Google search returns more hits for the first set than the second. It would be best to keep the terminology the same between the actual suffix entry (they use the first set) and the suffix gloss in etymologies. Would you mind using the first set? Is there a reason you prefer the second set? --Panda10 (talk) 17:35, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Hello :
 * Elsősorban, elnézést a késésért. :)
 * I did some research of my own to try to figure out where I fell into this habit. I think it's more common usage in English discussions of Japanese morphology, but I could be wrong.
 * From my own subjective perspective, "noun suffix" sounds like a suffix for a noun, instead of a suffix that creates a noun. "Nominalizing suffix" makes the function clear in the label -- the suffix nominalizes, i.e. it creates a noun from the suffixed word.  Likewise for the other labels -- -izing clarifies the function.
 * Google hits alone can be a bit misleading. There are tons of suffixes that can attach to nouns -- and suffixes that create verbs (in my usage at issue here, "verbalizing") or that create adjectives ("adjectivizing") are a subset of these, which are all collectively described by some authors as "noun suffixes" -- i.e., suffixes that attach to nouns.  I personally find this confusing, and thus my bias is for the more-specific and less-ambiguous -izing labels.
 * All that said, if you (as one of the more senior Hungarian editors that I'm aware of) have a strong preference for "noun suffix" or some other label format, please let me know and I shall change my habits.
 * (... although that is somewhat moot of late, as I have been far too busy to be as active here as I'd like. :-/ )
 * Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:47, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Actually, I don't have a strong preference about which format to use. My preference is more about standardization: if we use format A at the definition, than let's use format A everywhere where the suffix is mentioned. That's all. As a non-native speaker, I needed a native speaker's help to determine which usage is more common or more correct. Based on your reasoning and explanation, using the -izing forms does make more sense. So keep doing that. Eventually, I will change the labels. Thank you for your detailed reply! --Panda10 (talk) 13:34, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * One more question: What do you think about the format "noun-forming suffix", "verb-forming suffix", "adjective-forming suffix"? Somewhat longer than the -izing format, but at least they have only one variant, while -izing has the -ising variant. --Panda10 (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm okay with that. As you note, it's a bit more of a mouthful, but it does nicely avoid any regional bias in the spelling.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:23, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Great, then let's go with that. The category names already use this format (e.g. Category:English noun-forming suffixes). Thanks again. --Panda10 (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Native Language?
hi , Your name sounds Icelandic. Why is it that, according to Babel, your native lang is English? It sounds a lot like you're a native Icelandic speaker. Awesomemeeos (talk) 01:31, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * No need to ping him on his own talk page. He has stretches where he only has time to come up for air and check his talk page once in a blue moon- I don't think he's ignoring you. As for his user name, we have Chinese and Vietnamese people with Japanese user names, and Americans with Old English user names. Only a few of us are boring enough to use our real names. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:22, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That's true — "Chuck Entz" is an interesting choice of username for an Icelander like you. Contrast that with boring old me, Metaknowledge Smith. (My parents had a slightly unorthodox taste in names, but my sister Algorithm and I still love them just the same.) —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, people who use their real names (or easily traceable versions thereof) are total schlubs. — JohnC5 13:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

 * I know smatterings of many languages, and more than many of Japanese, but precious little of Íslenska. Því miður, ég get ekki talað íslensku.  Jeg kan ikke tale dansk heller, og dansk er en af mine nærmere forfædres sprog.  Ah, well.  As I told my family years ago, I responded to the dictum, "go west, young man!" -- and I just kept going, and wound up in Japan.  o.O
 * Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Just a heads-up:
UtherPendrogn has started adding Old Japanese entries. He considers himself a quick study and isn't the best about attention to details. He also has an unfortunate tendency to come unglued when people correct his work. I haven't checked his work lately, so he may not be as bad as he was to start with, and I'm not qualified to judge anything to do with Old Japanese, anyway. If you have time, you might want to take a look. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 13:10, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * He seems to have taken this as "delete all UtherPendrogn's stuff". It's not even hilarious, since I'd LINKED to a PRIMARY SOURCE with the word attested directly in it and a SCHOLAR from the University of Oxford (maybe you've heard of it?)'s translation. If the words are wrong, I'll literally run naked in the streets of London. I'm perfectly calm, the caps are not me being angry. I'm just concerned that someone deleted something which was clearly directly sourced to one of the best Universities of the world's paper on the language, and also a primary source. The kanji and romaji are quite clear. The only reason I started adding them was since I needed them for something else, and decided I might as well. I'm not a scholar, let alone a Japonic one, so I just copied ad verbatim what I saw and had been written by the scholars. UtherPendrogn (talk) 20:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

 * : If the words are wrong, I'll literally run naked in the streets of London. -- Shall I bring the popcorn?
 * <facepalm/> <sigh./>
 * Let's start with 久毛 (kumo). This could mean, or .  You chose to define this as  -- such a word exists in Japanese, both the modern and the ancient language, but it is canonically spelled .  I'm not sure where you got the etymology; the reference you provided just shows these two characters  and  used phonetically in context to spell the sounds ku + mo, it says nothing about the meaning or origin of this term.  In addition, Proto-Japonic is an area that, to my understanding, is controversial enough that I do not feel comfortable adding such information to Wiktionary.
 * Then there was 夜 (ya). You chose to define this as  -- canonically spelled.
 * Your OJP entry at was mostly correct, which was a bit surprising by comparison.
 * Old Japanese is a very odd duck, and you should really know what you're doing before attempting to create dictionary entries for this language. One of the biggest hurdles for any student of OJP is the writing -- it was very much not systematic, in a way that makes Chaucer's wandering spelling look quite easy in comparison; it used a hodge-podge of multiple and varying Chinese characters to stand in for 1) the entire word's meaning, 2) the phonetic value based on the borrowed Chinese reading, or 3) the phonetic value based on the native Japanese pronunciation of the term with the same meaning as that Chinese character.  This phenomenon is known as .  If you don't know how to read OJP, you don't really have the prerequisite knowledge to be creating entries.  There isn't anything surprising about other editors removing or reworking such entries.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Old Japanese is exclusively written phonetically. So is the correct Old Japanese for the later cloud kumo. https://books.google.fr/books?id=1bp_AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=eight-cloud+old+japanese&source=bl&ots=GAh4C0hERP&sig=I8kBqUIRhKO1pjxM9Kxt48uDNws&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4g5O454jQAhVLXBoKHaaUAA4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=eight-cloud%20old%20japanese&f=false
 * Kumwo means cloud, ya-kumwo means eight-cloud. UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:23, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, your logic is just odd. You don't feel comfortable adding them yourself so you removed mine? Also, see here.
 * http://vsarpj.orinst.ox.ac.uk/corpus/ojcorpus.html#Kojiki (The primary source I posted)
 * Kumwo: 久毛 (cloud)
 * Ya: 夜 (eight)
 * Nana: 七 (seven)
 * UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:26, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Allow me to address several points here. I'm in a bit of a rush, so this post will be less well-structured than I'd like.
 * I just did a quick-and-dirty survey of the text of the , an OJP poetry collection compiled sometime around 759 CE. The two-character combination 久毛 to phonetically spell kumo is used most extensively in cases where the ku is the conjugated ending of the preceding word, and the mo is the particle .  Next, it is used to spell kumo as in modern Japanese .  I also see in poem #892 that 久毛 was used to spell kumo as in modern Japanese.
 * This kind of ambiguity is precisely why writing was abandoned in favor of canonical kanji and kana.  Even if one were to insist on phonetic spellings as the lemma forms for OJP entries, romaji is vastly more preferable than.
 * Notably, Volume 7 contains only one instance of 久毛, used in poem #1414 to spell the ending of yo no fukuraku mo. That same volume contains 21 different places where  is used in the OJP text, intended with the reading kumo and the meaning of .  OJP was demonstrably not exclusively written phonetically.
 * Re: why remove yours but not add my own, it comes down to time and veracity. The information you added was incorrect in important ways, and it simply took less time to delete the evidentially incorrect entry than it would have taken to thoroughly research the term, move it to the correct lemma spelling, and rework the content.  I am busy IRL, and that prevents me from participating here more fully.  I am not alone in this -- in general, Wiktionary editors are quicker to remove incorrect information than they are to build out correct information.  And, like me, the driving factor behind this is time, or rather, the lack thereof.
 * FWIW, I am not averse to working collaboratively to build out Wiktionary's OJP entries and template infrastructure, when and as time allows. This is something I've been slowly working towards for some time.  That said, any such initiative must happen with the collaboration and cooperation of the other Wiktionary editors here who work on Japanese entries.  The WT:Beer parlor is probably the best place to bring up relevant discussions.  Other than myself, other editors to ping would be Anatoli, Haplology, Suzukaze, Takasugi Shinji, Wyang... I know I'm forgetting several others (申し訳なく、ご了承ください), but that's a start at least.
 * Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:01, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * (Edi conflict) Re: his logic- have you ever heard the expression fools rush in where angels fear to tread? If someone draws me a detailed topographic map of a planet in another solar system, that fact that no one knows enough about that planet to draw one of their own is reason enough to question where they got their information- whether or not I could draw one of my own. Eirikr is a professional translator who's read a lot on the etymology of Japanese, so I trust his judgment on this.
 * There's a huge amount of uncertainty and variability in ancient languages like Old Japanese. They didn't have dictionaries or classes in the subject: you learned from someone else, and if you ran into something that no one had taught you about, you did your best to make something up that seemed to work. Add to that the fact that the Chinese script has always been only partly phonetic, and that the system of phonetic writing in Japanese was still evolving, and you get something that takes a lot of extrapolation and guesswork to arrive at a sort of approximation. Sure, there are references with everything laid out neatly and systematically, but I'm sure other references have different interpretations of the same data. What little I've read on the subject is full of allusions to widespread disagreement about very basic concepts, so I wouldn't take any one source as the final word.
 * At any rate, I didn't give Eirikr that heads-up with the intent of inciting him to trash everything. It's just that Eirikr is one of maybe two or three people on Wiktionary that know enough about Old Japanese to have an opinion on it, and he doesn't have time to look through everything and come across them on his own. I just wanted to let him know so he could take a look for himself.
 * As for your behavior here: I have nothing much to complain about. You still approach things with the same naïve and reckless overconfidence, but that's not a matter of etiquette. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:10, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Why not just add alternative man'yogana forms on the page with the later generalised form? UtherPendrogn (talk) 10:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * : spellings are so variant that there is little value in including this: readers of OJP are expected to be adequately familiar with kanji readings and with  in general.  For similar reasons of excess variation, Wiktionary does not include all divergent spellings of Middle English or Old English words -- we generally settle on one canonical spelling.  So too with Japanese resources, which similarly use a canonical spelling as the headword.  Quotes from ancient works may show different spellings, but the reader is assumed to understand that OJP writing conventions were irregular.  For example, although a given OJP term might appear in Poem ABC in OJP compilation XYZ, it might appear in poem BCD in that same compilation XYZ with a completely different spelling.  I'm pretty sure I've even seen the same word spelled multiple ways within a single poem (which again mirrors Chaucer and the fluid nature of Middle English orthography).
 * In your recent edit, you mentioned that  This isn't just my own personal preference, which I came up with all on my own.  But don't just take my word for it.  There are online freely-available dictionaries that include OJP.  For example, Weblio has this entry for tuma or this entry for kumo, which clearly list the words using the canonicalized kanji spellings.  My dead-tree OJP dictionaries do the same.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:00, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Might it have crossed your mind that I deleted that edit for a reason? UtherPendrogn (talk) 17:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * : Might it have crossed your mind that I would still see it? And perhaps want to respond to it, to try to clear up what is clearly a misapprehension on your part?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:22, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * FWIW, Wiktionary does (in principle) "include all divergent spellings of Middle English [and] Old English words"; one form (a canonical spelling) is lemmatised, whilst every other spelling gets an entry. It seems to me that there would be value in doing the same for Old Japanese man'yōgana; it may be that "readers of OJP are expected to be adequately familiar with kanji readings and with  in general", but I don't see why the barrier to entry must be set so high here on Wiktionary. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:31, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I.S.M.E.T.A.: This is less a matter of barriers, than simple variance -- there are patterns, but the variety of spellings is greater than Middle or Old English.  There also isn't much utility; by point of reference, no monolingual Japanese resource that I'm aware of includes  spellings as headwords.  I would be open to listing OJP entries at the corresponding kana spelling, but cataloging all of the  spellings would approach a Sisyphean task.  From a modern perspective,  can be likened to misspellings, and there have been arguments here in the fora where the emerging consensus was to only bother with misspellings if they are relatively common, and even then it's only to include them as soft redirects.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:27, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Re “the variety of spellings is greater than Middle or Old English”, are you sure about that? Check out the Middle English Dictionary’s forty listed variants of the 🇨🇬. Also see User:-sche/exceptional, which links to entries with dozens of variants (over a hundred in the case of the name ). Because of WT:NOTPAPER, there is no good reason to exclude the various man'yōgana spellings. I don't think the concept of misspelling really applies to Old Japanese — and that is because of its lack of standardisation (as is the case with Middle English). I believe that a person should be able to look up an Old Japanese term without having to know Modern Japanese; would you agree? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:52, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Why did you delete all my Old Japanese entries?
They were correct, sourced, and linked to their current Japanese forms and older Proto-Japonic forms. UtherPendrogn (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * , see fuller reply above. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:08, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Mistakes that native people make themselves
Hi Eirikr, I wonder if there are any mistakes that native Japanese speakers make when speaking their own language, Japanese (in terms of grammar, spelling, word usage etc.). For example, native English speakers may use gone and went incorrectly. Thanks! – AWESOME meeos ！ ＊ （「欺负」我） 23:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

 * : One easy one is the use of adjective as an adverb, without conjugating it into the adverbial -ku form of .  This could be argued to be an instance of, I'm not sure.  I'll see what other examples I can think of.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:08, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Does ra-nuki count? Also . —suzukaze (t・c) 02:07, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi
Are you good enough at Japanese to tell if things are correct in OJ at a glance? I'd happily collect the Old Japanese words, find possible Proto-Japonic forms and descendants, then show them to you and post the articles if you don't want to. I would appreciate you reviewing them though, I don't speak a word of Japanese. As I said, I added these because I found they weren't on here. A few: Kamwi: 迦微 (God/Spirit, Kami) Tuma: 都麻 (Wife, Tsuma) So: 曾 (That, So) Kwo: 兒 (Child, Ko) UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:39, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd also appreciate being contacted before you just delete an etymology. I have the source, you only need to ask. Now the etymology is lost. UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Re: deletions, nothing on Wiktionary is lost -- just look at the page history, the tabbed link right at the top of the page.
 * Looking at the individual terms, most of those are spellings and thus you generally won't find them in any modern dictionary references.  The canonical forms and modern JA entries are:
 * -- likely arising from an older pronunciation kamu, which persists in certain old compounds.
 * , -- notably, OJP tuma originally meant, regardless of gender, and arose from the word , from the idea of someone being at one's side.
 * Any OJP entries should likely be created under those headings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Any OJP entries should likely be created under those headings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Any OJP entries should likely be created under those headings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * PS: It looks like you're saving the page on each iteration when you are composing your posts on my Talk page -- this causes me to get multiple email notifications in quick succession, which is a bit annoying. Please use the Show preview button instead, and click Save changes only once you're done drafting your text.  TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:28, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Don't be condescending. I know how to edit, I just often have things to add a few hours later. UtherPendrogn (talk) 10:44, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * : No condescension meant. A few hours later is no issue.  I was referring to yesterday, when you made five edits between 1:33 and 1:40 PM my time, and later that evening, when you made another five edits to the same section between 5:23 and 5:26 PM.  On a regular page, that just makes for a messy page history.  On user talk pages, though, you should be aware that you are effectively spamming that user, as for most of us, each user talk page edit generates an email notification to that user.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

What do you do like about Japan?
Hi Awesomemeeos again. Sorry to bother you, but just as a general question, what are some of the things you like about japan and its culture? – AWESOME meeos ！ ＊ （「欺负」我） 08:17, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * : I like the people here. The food is pretty good too.  :)
 * One big thing that Japan has going for it, as a place to live, is that it's very safe: violent crime is pretty darn rare, and even petty property crime is unusual. Case in point: my wife and I have both left our phones on the bullet train by accident at different times, and have recovered the phones within a couple days for less than JPY ¥1,000 / USD $10.00 in shipping charges.  Once, my wife left her *purse* on the train, and we got it back in a few hours with nothing missing.  This is hard to imagine in the US.
 * Like anywhere, it has its problems. From my personal perspective, those problems are less uncomfortable than the problems I've encountered in many other places where I've lived.
 * YMMV, and all the usual caveats for any subjective statement of opinion. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 15:31, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Romanji
Hi, I wonder if Japanese people are aware of Romanji and know how to use it. Do they learn at school? Also, do they use keyboards based on Romanji or use a kana-arranged keyboard? Thanks again! – AWESOME meeos ！ ＊ （「欺负」我） 10:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

 * : In Japanese, it's called, and in English, it's usually called . This is taught in school.  The most common romaji spelling convention taught in Japan is .  This doesn't map very well to the pronunciations expected by English speakers, such as  rendered as sya in Kunreishiki, where the pronunciation is closer to sha.  Kunreishiki also has some important failings, such as the impossibility of rendering the sound  -- this becomes han in Kunreishiki, same as .  Another impossibility in Kunreishiki is spelling  in a clear and unambiguous fashion: this becomes pāti, but the final ti in Kunreishiki is indistinguishable from , which is pronounced closer to chi.
 * Another system that is taught in many materials for English-language learners of Japanese is . We use a modified version of Hepburn for JA entries here at Wiktionary.
 * For Japanese input on keyboards, a couple options are available. Historically, the first Japanese typewriters had enormous keyboards, supporting all ~100 kana glyphs and around 2,400 kanji as well.  Have a look at some of the images on Wikimedia Commons.  The advent of computers greatly simplified things, with the ability to define software-based conversions of character sequences into other characters (such as romaji to kana, kana to kanji, romaji to kanji).  Here are some Japanese computer keyboard layouts.  You might also be interested in the  article on Wikipedia.
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:36, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I am interested by the seventh row of katakana in this image, which features, , , and a sutegana for ; the image's description notes that “Small フ (HU), ホ (HO), ヰ (WI), and ム (MU) are not used in today's Japanese orthography”, but presumably they were at the time that the font was devised in 1925. Can you tell me what these sutegana were used for, please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Testing of Ainu transliteration code
I tried making a module that can transliterate Ainu from kana into the Latin alphabet. It's probably far from perfect since I actually have no idea what I'm doing, and cross-referencing its output with existing entries seems to find a lot of inconsistencies. It seems like you're knowledgeable in Ainu, could you help check it at Module:ain-translit/testcases? Thanks. —suzukaze (t・c) 09:53, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

 * : Interesting! I see too that you're running into some of the tough challenges -- like オッタ = orta, or アッペ = akpe.  I'm afraid I haven't spent enough time digging around in Ainu orthography to be able to help too much; my Ainu vocabulary is also probably too small for this.  That said, I'm happy to have a look and see what I can contribute, if anything.  :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Eric, I wanted to discuss here about the reverts on.

You said :“nothing here says that "hózhóní" is not a primary verb". I'm sorry for my bad wording, but by “not primary”, I meant that hózhóní as it stands here, is qualified as a verb form (it's nizhóní conjugated / infected for the 3s person), so is not a "primary" verb in that sense. I don't believe it is desirable that all verbs forms appear in the prefix or root categories, as opposed to just verb lemmata. Of course, this can be discussed as this is a communitary work, but there are so many inflected forms that this would totally blur the structure of the lexicon. And there already are so many forms just with the verb lemmata...

Then, “or on cat page to say that verb forms aren't allowed”: yes, I can change that to make it more clear. If you want, I can also make categories for all non verbal lemmata, keeping the verb lemmata separate.

I actually just finished going over all the verb entries yesterday, placing all of them into categories for prefixes, stem, root, aspect and paradigm. I'm now going to tackle prefixes, making one page entry for each of them. There I can make some arrangement for pointing to categories for both verb lemmata and non verb lemmata.

What do you think? Julien Daux (talk) 00:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Also... I don't know if it's me, but I feel like a little of animosity on your end towards me. Rest assured that I'm not there to aggress, vandalize or destroy anyone's work, and I would greatly appreciate if you could come to me before reverting one of my edits? I actually just came across one from back in October that I hadn't seen, and I'm totally open for discussion. The edit I reverted this morning was from an anon user, so I hadn't a way to discuss the matter with him or her, otherwise I would have. Thank you! Julien Daux (talk) 01:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Heya Julien, no animosity at all. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.  I greatly appreciate your work in building out Navajo.  A little disagreement is probably inevitable in any project this big and with this many people involved.  I recognize that you are working in good faith and making a positive contribution.  Please don't take any input from me as animosity.
 * Re: categories, thank you for explaining where you're coming from on . I confess that I don't agree here that this is purely a verb form; I would be more apt to view  as a verb form of .  At the crux, I don't quite agree that this derives directly as a form of .  The root verb stem for both  and  is, and we still have  in the modern language, from which  would clearly derive as the regular result of adding nominalizing suffix .  From there, since etymologically this should be a noun, but it's used lexically as a verb, that would appear to qualify it as a lemma unto itself, independent of .  If  instead comes directly from  (subtract the ni- and add the hó-), then where does  come from?  I'm not aware of any corresponding  still extant in Navajo, and back-formation from nominalized forms suffixed with  to forms without the suffix doesn't seem to be a regular process of word formation in the language.
 * That's my 2p, anyway: looks to me like a lemma, and thus deserving of categorization.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:52, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Happy to see we're in good terms.

 * Letting aside the -zhǫ́ vs. -zhóní issue for the moment and focusing on hózhóní with regard to nízhóní, all I can say is that both Young and Morgan volumes (the Navajo Language, 1987, and the Analytical Lexicon, 1992) consider the former to be an inflected form of the latter (namely, the 3s). (disclaimer: this is not an argument of authority because there are MANY things I'm left unsatisfied with in these two dictionaries, it is just to show some other opinions). YM1992 is even weirder because it lists hózhóní both as a an inflected form of nizhóní (which is weird because YM1992 never displays conjugation paradigms and always sends the reader back to the YM1987 volume), and as a standalone entry under the NEUTER ni-Ø theme.

 * Prefixes fall in two broad categories, derivational/thematic or inflectional/paradigmatic. The difficulty with the spatial ho- prefix is that it falls in both categories depending on the situation. Usually, the thematic use of it is easy to spot because:
 * it is present in all persons (for instance the 1st person forms: bóhoosh'aah, hashneʼ,...),
 * the meaning is rarely related to space, area or things in an obvious fashion (I learn, I tell,...).
 * The paradigmatic ho- on the other hand disappears in non-3s persons (hóteel but nishteel, ...) and the meaning is predictable and unambiguously related to space (area is wide = there are plains).

 * Ambiguous cases arise when the verb is only used in the 3rd person and doesn't alternate with 1st or 2nd person, it is difficult to really ascertain if ho- is thematic or paradigmatic.

 * Back to the case of hózhóní, ho- appears to satisfy here both criteria: it alternates with 1st and 2nd persons (hózhóní but nishzhóní, nizhóní) and meaning is clearly related to space. So ho- seems very likely to be a conjugated form and not a main form under a separate verb theme.

 * Now, hózhǫ́ is one of those cases where classification is more peculiar. Meaning is related to space, but it misses alternating forms... In absence of more evidence, it is as a default classified as its own "primary" entry in synchronic dictionaries, even if there are grounds to suspect it was formerly the ho- conjugated form of a hypothetical *nizhǫ́ verb.

海豹
Votes/2016-07/Using template l to link to English entries and Votes/2016-07/Placing English definitions in def template or similar may be relevant... —suzukaze (t・c) 03:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Those votes to impose their respective regulations failed, but that does not mean that the contrary of those regulations is thereby imposed. FWIW, I approve of Eiríkr's edit and would've voted support in both those votes you link to; somehow, I missed them. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Eirikr/2016


text:
User talk:Eirikr/2017

Shifting work responsibilities and a long road trip led to me not logging in here for the better part of a month. I will be only sporadically active here for the foreseeable future. If you post here on my Talk page, or ping me from some other page, please be aware that it might be a couple weeks before I respond. I am not ignoring you -- I am simply busy elsewhere. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:29, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Sayonara
To be honest, I was expecting suzu or someone to revert that, but you're welcome and I'm glad that some of the other users appreciate the nuance/formatting. — Llywelyn II   16:33, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Looking for an editor for my Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible or at least its sub pages
Hello Eirikr! As you will have noticed, I've been out of editing mode for quite a long while and have started recently to get back into the swing of things and continue working on this Appendix which will end up being an extremely long list of words. I was hoping that you wouldn't mind at least taking a moment of time to glance at the sub-pages I've created for the various headwords which gives the quotations showing how the gikun words are used, and edit if you see fit, or offer any feedback/suggestions you may have. I've started linking to those sub-pages using See Also headings at the end of the definitions for the wiktionary headwords. For an example, see 艶美. I would greatly appreciate any help/suggestions you are willing to provide. Also, to any others reading this who feel themselves qualified, I welcome your help. Thanks!馬太阿房 (talk) 19:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC) One more thing... The etymologies (if you can call them that) on my sub-pages are my main concern. Please compare what I have done under Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/艶美 with what I have put under the Etymology heading under Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/眼瞼. Since I have linked in that section to the Sino-Japanese headword and to the individual characters which make up that headword where a user can often find etymologies, I had thought it would be fine if I just explained basically how the gikun word was formed. What are your thoughts on this? 馬太阿房 (talk) 08:03, 13 January 2017 (UTC). Or, would you prefer I didn't use the word Etymology and do something like what you see here: Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/挈 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:49, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

 * : Interesting effort. After looking at the few appendix entries you've linked to here, I think ===Etymology=== is probably a good heading.  However, "derived from Sino-Japanese word ..." strikes me as incorrect wording.  Gikun terms do not derive from the Chinese in any way other than spelling.  Similarly, including the Chinese-derived on'yomi seems misleading and not quite relevant.  Might I suggest wording such as, "derived by applying Chinese-derived spelling XXX to native Japanese term YYY..."
 * I'm curious, have you run across instances of such gikun spellings that are still current? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:43, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

 * : Thanks for having a look and providing your valued feedback. I will definitely revise and make the changes you suggest, and yes, I have recently come across an excellent web site which lists a number of gikun found in old and much more recent literature (https://furigana.info/) but with only a few exceptions, such as (which I fully expected to find on that site since はだか would be such an obvious gikun reading), were there any words from my list thus far. Do you think I should exclude them if I can find them on that web site? At first I was thinking that I should not include words found on that site if they were shown to be common in literature, and it appeared that  was quite common which was not at all surprising, but then recently I changed my mind and added it anyway, because that site does not use quotations from this bible unless they are quoted to a certain extent in other literature and it was from other writings which contained more or less quotes from from this bible, that I found one or two of the other words in my list on that site (not sure if that was good reasoning). Anyhow, I would be very interested in any feedback you may have on this too. I also recently found that my list of words (many if not all of the words I had added up until March of last year I think it was) had been evidently copied onto the Japanese wikipedia page for 義訓 under the 明治・大正 section heading having been added by user Srampax. I say they were copied since words not on my list are not to be found in the specific section under that heading for 明治元訳聖書 and I've only just started having gone through  a few chapters with the exception of my extensive search on the numerous gikun versions of うつくしい and うるわしい). 馬太阿房 (talk) 08:33, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Okay, please check Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/眼瞼. I think I finally got it in proper form, which brings up another question: Why do your etymologies for example for  say the word is derived from  + ... when 目 and 蓋 are technically Chinese words given Japanese readings  and . Wouldn't it be more clear for you to say it in the form I now have under Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/眼瞼 and say something like,  is a compound of , instead of showing the Chinese characters Japan has adopted for ま and ふた in the etymology? 馬太阿房 (talk) 09:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC). Okay, I made one more edit for Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/眼瞼. I think now without including the Sino-Japanese word spelling がんけん in the Etymology section, I now have it in the form you had felt made the most sense. 馬太阿房 (talk) 06:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC) Here's one more you can check to make sure I've got the Etymology format the way it should be: Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/好合う 馬太阿房 (talk) 06:45, 10 February 2017 (UTC) and one more: Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/集合る 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC) and this Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/生霊 馬太阿房 (talk) 06:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC). And here's a more complicated one with more than one etymology you can check: Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible/発出す. So, if all these look okay now, I'll continue to do the rest using the same form of wording in the Etymology section. 馬太阿房 (talk) 08:05, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

さがしい (賢しい) and さかしい (賢しい)
Please check these entries. From what I can tell, さがしい is an old form used in the Meiji era (found only in the oldest resources I can find) and still used in modern Tōhoku dialect to mean "clever". Interestingly, my research tells me that in Tōhoku dialect, they don't say "こざがしい" (小賢しい) but I think 小賢しい (こざかしい) is a common word elsewhere outside the Tōhoku region. 馬太阿房 (talk) 01:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

汰 Meaning
I looked up on some websites, claiming that 汰 means "luxury" or "selection" in Japanese, so what's the deal with reverting my edit?--Therainbowsend (talk) 05:07, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

 * : "Some websites" can be unreliable. Kanjidic includes glosses and readings of dubious sourcing that aren't backed up by vocabulary.  The only terms I can find that actually use the  kanji are:
 * The last term is the only term with anything to do with, but even then, it ultimately decomposes into + .   itself entails no  sense.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I got out my 漢語林 and found that it also means more what you would expect judging from the components: 1. にごる (Make (water) muddy/cloudy (thickening the water, if you will)) 2. なみ. おおなみ. ("Waves and Billows"). Think of how they become muddy as they stir up sediments. I agree with what Eirikr is saying, that there should be vocabulary to back it up to warrant the meanings inclusion and it is easy to see how 奢汰 can be explained using the よなげる meaning which is the 7th meaning given or even meanings 1 and 2 found given in 漢語林 (given above). It actually lists 8 meanings which all seem related and I'm guessing they were all included to show how 汰 evolved in use over time. Interestingly, 漢語林 does not list but にごる, the first meaning given, would look just like it . I'm guessing that 汰 was never really used in either of these ways as a verb in Japan except for maybe idiosyncratically by some writers who understood the basic meaning. The 3rd meaning given is ぜいたくをする ("to live in luxury") and the example vocabulary to go with this usage is . I suppose even this usage may not warrant the "luxury" meaning given how you can extend the basic original meanings. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The last term is the only term with anything to do with, but even then, it ultimately decomposes into + .   itself entails no  sense.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I got out my 漢語林 and found that it also means more what you would expect judging from the components: 1. にごる (Make (water) muddy/cloudy (thickening the water, if you will)) 2. なみ. おおなみ. ("Waves and Billows"). Think of how they become muddy as they stir up sediments. I agree with what Eirikr is saying, that there should be vocabulary to back it up to warrant the meanings inclusion and it is easy to see how 奢汰 can be explained using the よなげる meaning which is the 7th meaning given or even meanings 1 and 2 found given in 漢語林 (given above). It actually lists 8 meanings which all seem related and I'm guessing they were all included to show how 汰 evolved in use over time. Interestingly, 漢語林 does not list but にごる, the first meaning given, would look just like it . I'm guessing that 汰 was never really used in either of these ways as a verb in Japan except for maybe idiosyncratically by some writers who understood the basic meaning. The 3rd meaning given is ぜいたくをする ("to live in luxury") and the example vocabulary to go with this usage is . I suppose even this usage may not warrant the "luxury" meaning given how you can extend the basic original meanings. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The last term is the only term with anything to do with, but even then, it ultimately decomposes into + .   itself entails no  sense.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I got out my 漢語林 and found that it also means more what you would expect judging from the components: 1. にごる (Make (water) muddy/cloudy (thickening the water, if you will)) 2. なみ. おおなみ. ("Waves and Billows"). Think of how they become muddy as they stir up sediments. I agree with what Eirikr is saying, that there should be vocabulary to back it up to warrant the meanings inclusion and it is easy to see how 奢汰 can be explained using the よなげる meaning which is the 7th meaning given or even meanings 1 and 2 found given in 漢語林 (given above). It actually lists 8 meanings which all seem related and I'm guessing they were all included to show how 汰 evolved in use over time. Interestingly, 漢語林 does not list but にごる, the first meaning given, would look just like it . I'm guessing that 汰 was never really used in either of these ways as a verb in Japan except for maybe idiosyncratically by some writers who understood the basic meaning. The 3rd meaning given is ぜいたくをする ("to live in luxury") and the example vocabulary to go with this usage is . I suppose even this usage may not warrant the "luxury" meaning given how you can extend the basic original meanings. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The last term is the only term with anything to do with, but even then, it ultimately decomposes into + .   itself entails no  sense.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I got out my 漢語林 and found that it also means more what you would expect judging from the components: 1. にごる (Make (water) muddy/cloudy (thickening the water, if you will)) 2. なみ. おおなみ. ("Waves and Billows"). Think of how they become muddy as they stir up sediments. I agree with what Eirikr is saying, that there should be vocabulary to back it up to warrant the meanings inclusion and it is easy to see how 奢汰 can be explained using the よなげる meaning which is the 7th meaning given or even meanings 1 and 2 found given in 漢語林 (given above). It actually lists 8 meanings which all seem related and I'm guessing they were all included to show how 汰 evolved in use over time. Interestingly, 漢語林 does not list but にごる, the first meaning given, would look just like it . I'm guessing that 汰 was never really used in either of these ways as a verb in Japan except for maybe idiosyncratically by some writers who understood the basic meaning. The 3rd meaning given is ぜいたくをする ("to live in luxury") and the example vocabulary to go with this usage is . I suppose even this usage may not warrant the "luxury" meaning given how you can extend the basic original meanings. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

のに
I'd appreciate if this entry could get an expansion, including usage examples. Thanks! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 08:37, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Μετάknowledge: Hmm, yes, that needs expansion. I've just added the etym now to put it on my watchlist.  It's late here and I'm about to crash, so I'll have a go at building it out further at a later time.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 08:43, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's a reminder that the entry still needs pronunciation and references. By the way, what useful things are there that I could do around here in Japanese? I'm interested in helping out, but it's hard for me to tell what needs to be done that can be done by someone who doesn't actually speak it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:00, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi. If you're willing to invest, you could purchase the NHK pronunciation dictionary app, which has audio and easy-to-use notation. There are still many important words without pronunciation sections or they are non-standard, missing the pitch accent or devoicing markers. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:38, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Is this rule recorded anywhere or is it de-facto? —suzukaze (t・c) 23:11, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's recorded anywhere here on WT, if that's what you're asking. In lexicographic terms, I've only ever seen yomi given in JA sources for two-character terms, and never for anything longer.  Furthermore, two of the yomi terms ( and ) are themselves two-character terms, and only make sense in a two-character context.  If a longer kanji term happens to have consistently on or kun, I have no problem specifying that as a reading; but calling  "irregular" is just not useful, and potentially misleads readers into thinking that the ōkami portion is irregular, when instead the irregularity is entirely limited to the Nihon portion.  I've brought up the idea in the past of expanding the functionality of the  and  templates to allow editors to specify yomi types for substrings, but that never went anywhere.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:20, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Derived terms under 女
Some of the derived terms listed seem to be out of place. For example, all the ones which don't even have 女 in them, like. I don't think the derived terms listing on a Character page is supposed to include a listing of terms which have a yomi derived from one of the yomi used to read the character, regardless of whether term is written with a different character(s), or is it? Also, why is on the list? The character used to write おも may have been derived from 女, but does that make it a "derived term"? You will notice that the derived terms section is only under the 3rd etymology heading which was created for the reading め, but some of the terms listed, like and  don't even use the reading め. Would you please explain what criteria is used to determin whether a term belongs in the "derived terms" section or the "compounds" section on a Character page? About_Japanese says "section should be called "Compounds" in kanji entries and "Derived terms" in non-kanji entries." Does that mean there shouldn't be any "Derived terms" sections under on character entry pages, or is it just talking about under the Kanji heading in the Japanese section of the page, and by "non-kanji entries" is it talking about the sections of the Character page which has Etymologies of the different readings? 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

 * -- Japanese is an odd duck. Don't confuse the graphical representation (the spelling -- here, 女) with the term itself (here, me).  Japanese spellings serve as disambiguation for the underlying terms.  The me in  is clearly the same me as in, so 娶る derives from 女.
 * Re:, that clearly traces back to older reading womina, where the mi cognate with the me in . As a cognate and not a direct derivation, this should be removed from the deriveds.
 * I am uncertain about ; the only etymological information I can get for this term suggests that this has no direct relationship with, so this too should be removed from the deriveds.
 * Re: compounds vs. deriveds, compounds is a more general heading and could potentially hold all terms spelled with the same glyph. Deriveds are bound by the etymology, which is tied to the phonetics and sometimes wholly divorced from the spelling.  So  would go under the deriveds under the etym for, but not in the compounds for , nor under any of the other etymologies for that spelling.
 * Please let me know if this doesn't fully address your questions. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. I guess you are right about me being confused by the graphical representation of the different words. I had found it confusing to see words like which although obviously derived using the term  (the kanji spelling of the word even looks like  +  since both kanji are seen in it), don't share the same character representation of  as they would if it were written . I had been thinking all terms listed under  should include  in the kanji spelling of the word. Now that I fully understand, I'll make sure to only remove the words that obviously don't belong such as  and  from under the etymology for me if you haven't already. 馬太阿房 (talk) 05:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * When doing so, please also be aware that sometimes phonological rules may obscure otherwise-clear relationships. For example,  derives directly from  and, but this is not immediately obvious from the phonetics, unless you're aware of some of the historical patterns in sound changes.  Essentially, beware of what may or may not "obviously" belong.  :)  That said, if one term derives from some other term, the etym for the derived term should at least mention that derivation, so check the entries and see what's listed.  If you can read Japanese, please also check sites like Weblio, Kotobank, Gogen Allguide, Nihon Jiten, and any dead-tree resources you might have to hand.  Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks for the tip and also thanks for the resources (two of which I use regularily) the other two are new to me and I will definitely start referring to them too. I looked briefly at the Nihon Jiten site and it looks like it may be especially good for finding etymological information.馬太阿房 (talk) 07:26, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

画図
This has been given the pronunciation がず, but in the スーパー大辞林 I only find this with the pronunciation がと. My input method does accept both, but this does suggest がと is the more common pronunciation. I was also wondering whether this term only means the act of drawing, or also the artwork produced by drawing? Would you be so kind as to expand this entry, and perhaps also the related 図画? – Krun (talk) 14:07, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

 * I've expanded. More might still be needed.  Please have a look.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

danskjävel
Hi Eirikr. Re your question whether is still current, I requested the term because I saw it used in a comment on YouTube; I assume, therefore, that the term is indeed current. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 23:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Your edit to 曠 removing reading あきらか
Hi Eirikr. Re your 11/20/2014 edit to 曠 where you commented, "can't find evidence for あきらか, which is of the wrong meaning anyway; Breen's includes あら in あらの, "wild or waste field"". Aside from my dead-tree resources, I was easily able to find 3 Japanese dictionary web sites which I don't think are using a common source for information. Please see the following: 1. http://www.kanjipedia.jp/kanji/0002332400 (this site says it uses information from 『漢検 漢字辞典　第二版』) 2. https://mnamae.jp/c/66e0.html  3. http://xn--i6q76ommckzzzfez63ccihj7o.com/honbun/zoukan-5b25.html As for the meaning あきらか being "wrong" I think if you had thought of in the sence of "out in the open", you would have seen how it came to be a meaning /  of 曠. I appreciate that you included あら and ひろい because these are definitely used too, but if you wanted to, you could also include other rare usages like はれ (open/public) which might be even more common in Japanese literature, see https://furigana.info/w/%E6%9B%A0:%E3%81%AF (see also https://furigana.info/w/%E6%9B%A0). 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Apologies for the delay. Catching up on my backlog, with a sliver of time open to me.
 * About the あきらか reading, I could not find any instances of usage at the time of that edit. I now find five at  -- still not tons, but enough that clearly aren't scannos to meet CFI.
 * Looking further into the むなしい reading, finds some that appear likely, but the search results are also pulling up instances of 素曠しい with a clear reading of すばらしい, as shown more explicitly in the one "preview" instance I can find, marked here in yellow with furigana clarifying the reading.  That one at least is definitely not a scanno, suggesting that the others may also be すばらしい where 曠 is used for the ばら portion.  Although the 晴 in すばらしい is ateji, the cross over in readings / meanings with はれ is likely the source of this alternative 曠 spelling.
 * For now, I'll re-add the あきらか reading. If you feel there are sufficient reliable citations to back up the はれ (probably は-れ, with 曠 as the は) and/or はら readings (with はら becoming ばら by rendaku?), by all means please add these in as well.
 * (FWIW, すばらしい almost certainly comes from verb . The -ashii adjectives derive from verbs in general, from the 未然形 + adjectivizing suffix -しい, with a general meaning of "evoking the quality of the verb stem".  すばらしい originally referred to something awful, as a synonym to ひどい, i.e. "something someone would want to shrink away from".  See also  from, etc.)
 * Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:36, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your further research into 曠 readings and for the info about すばらしい which is interesting. I'll let you make the decision about whether to include はら and/or はれ readings. You may have noticed that a lot of the citations on the furigana web site for those readings are from works by the same author so it might be an an old idiosyncratic usage for the most part which was then used by later authors in a similar way. 馬太阿房 (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Formatting for alternate readings. Questions about your edits to 楓
Hi Eirikr. I'm confused about how to format alternate readings and was looking for examples of how you have done them to determine what more I should do with the Japanese section I added for and the new entry I created for. So, while searching for an example, I found myself reviewing what you did with the readings for. I would think there should be separate POS headings for them, so when I saw, I expected to see another POS heading for that like you had made for the rare reading かいで, but didn't find one. Also, you defined かいで as "alternate reading for kaede: the maple tree." It doesn't seem to make sense to call かいで a "reading of kaede", as it isn't a reading for kaede but rather a reading for 楓 which is generally read かえで (kaede). Did you mean to say, " alternate reading for : the maple tree". Wouldn't that be better? 馬太阿房 (talk) 20:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Alternative readings present certain challenges in terms of entry layout. If there are any sense differences, then it definitely merits its own section.  If it has a clear etymology that is different in some substantive way, then it again probably merits its own section.  If it's only a matter of voicing, I've used  for the less-common reading.  If it's a vowel shift, I've generally broken it out as its own POS.
 * I've tweaked the wording at 楓. Past there, if you feel strongly that the entry should be restructured, have a go.  :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation regarding alternate readings and I'm satisfied with how you tweaked the wording. 馬太阿房 (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

口
This is in CAT:E after your last edit there. It seems that ja-r is spoiled and has a tantrum if you don't give it any kana. I swapped it for plain l to get rid of the module error, but you may know of a better way to deal with it. No hurry- it seems to be ok for now. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Chuck! I've started a new thread at Template_talk:ja-r related to this.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Translating "a language"
Hi, I was curious about the two Japanese translations for "language" under the sense "a body of words understood by a community": "kotoba" and "gengo". Both entries have a definition that sounds like "the ability to communicate using words". Could you clear up these definitions for me? Ultimateria (talk) 08:36, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I'll chew on that for a bit and have a go later. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:33, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Subordinate to pronunciation
Headers at the same level (4) are not subordinate, and can be arbitrarily rearranged. If some content is subordinate to a header at level n it should have header level n+1. DTLHS (talk) 03:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 * That's fine as an argument. However, it goes against practice.  Perhaps a matter for further discussion at the Beer parlor, or some similar venue?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:32, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 * For that matter, I'm curious -- if headers at a given level "can be arbitrarily arranged", why bother rearranging them anyway? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:34, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * When I say arbitrarily arranged I mean that there is no information conveyed by the order of headings (at the same level) on a page. My motivation for arranging them consistently is user friendliness. DTLHS (talk) 04:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 * In case you missed it (since it seems pings are broken), I posted a query about this a couple days ago, at User_talk:NadandoBot. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:45, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I did miss it (I do have that page watched of course). DTLHS (talk) 04:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Months-old edits (頭が良い, etc.)
How did you find these? :p —suzukaze (t・c) 21:01, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 * @suzukaze, I'm puzzled -- I've never before touched (possibly even looked at) the page before.  I did rework, which was brought to my attention by the recent registration of Poketalker, and that user's push to clean up their own pre-registration anon edits (c.f. Etymology_scriptorium/2017/October).
 * Was that WT:ES thread what you were thinking of? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 14:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I got a notification a few days ago saying that you thanked me for reverting an edit from like August or something. —suzukaze (t・c) 19:41, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @suzukaze -- Aha, that was probably a result of me going through the contributions of the various anon IPs that Poketalker had previously used, or perhaps by looking over the edit histories of the many entries recently reworked by NadandoBot. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

tentō mushi (, dash or space)
Isn't it supposed to be "tentō-mushi" (with the dash, example: here)? Also, what about compounds such as or ? --POKéTalker (talk) 20:48, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

 * @POKéTalker For romaji renderings, my general rule of thumb is to use spaces when there are clear term boundaries.  is a standalone noun, and  is also a standalone noun that is modifying mushi.  Since mushi has no rendaku, there's no reason to indicate any "attachedness" between mushi and tentō, so I'd use a space.
 * When there is rendaku, the first part is clearly "attached" in a way to the second, inasmuch as it's causing a phonetic change, so a hyphen is appropriate. If the preceding element causing the rendaku is itself a compound noun, it is appropriate to hyphenate that as well.  In your example, I'd render the romaji for  as tentō-mushi-damashi.  Same rule as for compound nouns in English when used as modifiers (like "high-school student", where "high school" as a compound noun is hyphenated when used as a modifier, to clarify that we're not talking about "high" + "school student" but instead about "high school" + "student), plus the hyphen-before-rendaku rule.
 * That's what I'd do for the main entries and .  I would then create the romaji entries, , , and maybe even  to cover all the bases from a usability perspective -- so users can still find the main entry, even if they use a different convention for spaces and hyphens in romaji spellings.
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:35, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

On a related note, what about and your recent edit of ? My suggestion for the former is denden-daiko due to the rendaku. For the ya kumo one, the literature books say yakumo without the space/dash, which my article addition(s) would correctly say yakumo. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 08:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * @POKéTalker, yes, with rendaku, a hyphen is appropriate. Re: 八雲, the  portion was very often used in older times to simply mean, .  The  portion in this term does not undergo rendaku, whereas it does in  of similar meaning.  To me, this suggests that the  and  components are still independent, especially in the phrase .  Where the compound is used as a name or epithet, without the , I think an argument can be made that this has lexicalized into a single unit, but in , all three parts strike me as discrete.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:09, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Sandbox
A sandbox has cropped up in Category:etyl cleanup/no which I am attempting to clear. I wonder if you would kindly remove it somehow. Cheers! DonnanZ (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Page deleted. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:26, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Simple as that. Thanks a lot. DonnanZ (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

でかい
Hi. Could you have a look at the etymology section of this entry? I'm afraid I've been using unreliable sources for it (as well as being amateurish in writing). --Dine2016 (talk) 15:14, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I had a go over it. I'll do another pass later; I need to check a few things from my bigger dead-tree resources that I don't have to hand at the moment.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:34, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

キムチ
Could you please handle the attention here? I'm also curious if it can be determined whether the word really came straight from Korean or was mediated by English. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Why does it have to be from English? Korea and Japan are geographically close. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 18:15, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I just thought it was weird that Korean's [k] and [kʰ] would both become [k] in Japanese. But I suppose it's not that unexpected. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:03, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * They do at the beginning of a word, and Japanese [k] and [ɡ] both become [k] in Korean at the beginning of a word. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 22:12, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess Metaknowledge is asking because the Japanese borrowing is phonetic, just like English, not (a made up word). Even if it were the Korean [kʰ] as in  (a made up word), it would be still Japanese [k] because Japanese don't have aspirated consonants. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * @Μετάknowledge -- JA sources consistently source this as directly from Korean. Considering the geography and history, I see no reason to doubt this and instead suspect an import via English.  Phonologically, it's much as Anatoli indicates -- to a Japanese speaker's ear, there is no appreciable difference between Korean initial ㄱ  and ㅋ ; both are heard as .  As a native English speaker and beginning learner of Korean, I currently have to concentrate to be sure I hear the difference: I can hear it, but it's not a distinction I parse automatically.  :)
 * I've reworked the entry some and added commentary at Talk:キムチ.  Please let me know if that covers the bases.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:00, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
 * (another example:, dol.a.wa.yo bu.san.hang.e →. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:18, 12 December 2017 (UTC))
 * Well, the standard Revised Romanization transliteration is " but McCune–Reischauer is "torawayo pusanhange". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:00, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
 * There is often no difference between ㄱ and ㅋ word-initially; both can be quite aspirated. However, initial syllables with ㄱ typically have a low f0 (tone) ― see Kim et al. (2002), “The contribution of consonantal and vocalic information to the perception of Korean initial stops”: “On average, f0 is lowest for vowels following lax stops, higher following tense stops, and highest following aspirated.” Wyang (talk) 15:25, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * -- Thank you very much for the additional info. That article sounds very interesting, but Dropbox is giving me a 404: "The owner hasn’t granted you access to this link."  Is there a setting you could change on your end?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:25, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Bugger, I don’t know how to change it. Sent you an email just then. Wyang (talk) 05:06, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
 * We are observing tonogenesis in Korean, in which tone distinguishes ㄱ and ㅋ. The exception is ㅅ and ㅆ, whose consonantal difference is audible (at least to Koreans). — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:39, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks to all for the explanations, and Eirikr for your work on the entry! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:18, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The reverse works similarly. Japanese initial [k] is transliteration with ㄱ in Korean: -> . I should also mention that Korean [kʰ] is palatalised as [kçi], not [kʰi]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:00, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

You're really cool.
That's all I wanted to say. 😁 Randomly sincerely, Geekdiva (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

title: User talk:Eirikr/2017