text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2019/May

Etymology of the second verb at
At the moment, we give both etymologies as coming ultimately from. But De Vaan only considers the first, the "wash" sense, to come from it, and indeed that's what the PIE page currently says. For the second one, meaning "cut off" or "loosen", we don't have an entry currently, and the two sources I have available give different forms: De Vaan gives while Kroonen gives. Does anyone have any other sources on this particular root that can swing the decision one way or another? I'm not entirely sure what Kroonen's evidence is for *h₁. —Rua (mew) 14:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * On Wiktionary, has “from, ”, while  too is said to come from . , etymology 2, is said to come from.  --Lambiam 18:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are there any sources covering Greek or Indo-Iranian that mention this root? —Rua (mew) 10:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

wangiri
This is a kind of phone scam originating in Japanese. I added an awesome Spanish entry already. Just need the English and link to some Japanese term. --I learned some phrases (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

 * The Japanese term is, literally "one [and] cut". This refers to a practice of calling someone's cell phone, letting it ring once, and then hanging up.  The callee's phone will show your number, allowing the callee to call you back, if they so choose.
 * It's not necessarily a scam. It often is, such as when performed by an autodialler from a premium-rate phone number, in the hopes that the callee calls back and incurs the extra charges.  However, it could also be innocuous, such as when exchanging numbers and wanting to save your friend from the minor trouble of typing your number into their contact information.
 * More on the Japanese Wikipedia at ワン切り, and some content also on the English Wikipedia, specifically about the fraudulent angle, at w:Phone_fraud. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:01, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

drub
Are we confident in our etymology? Sources that I've seen suggest that the word has Arabic origins. Tharthan (talk) 17:34, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * My recommendation would be to label it "uncertain", with the Arabic being cited as one possibility, followed by the English dialectal origin second. Leasnam (talk) 19:50, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Arabic source being mentioned is usually the verbal noun, but since the English term is a verb, the Arabic verb itself, with forms like  (“being drubbed”) appears to me equally likely. The Turkish noun  is a loan from the Arabic verbal noun.  --Lambiam 20:29, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Tharthan (talk) 00:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good ! Leasnam (talk) 01:23, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Maremma
Can the etymology be sourced? Wikipedia and the TLFi says it comes from 🇨🇬 instead. ? Chignon – Пучок 10:00, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Most sources agree it comes from, several stating that in Roman times the ares was known as Maritima Regio. The latter is of course also generic Latin for “country by the sea-side”; any sea-side region could be referred to by that term, and I did not find independent confirmation that today’s Maremma was specifically referred to by the Romans as Maritima Regio, like for instance as an administrative division. The Lombardic derivation seems a bit implausible, first for the name having stuck virtually unchanged in the ten-plus centuries since Lombardic went extinct, and, second, for the semantic distance between the concept of a horse pen and the vast geographic area designated by the term. The web pages sporting this theory were all posted by the same person, so that leaves one source who, as far as I can see, in spite of a BA in linguistics and graduating with honors and obviously investing time in collecting etymological data, cannot lay claim to specific scholarly reputability.
 * The mentions yet another theory, to wit that the name derives from, meaning “swamp”. This Spanish term also derives from  . The area was known for being a malarial swamp (see the article Grosseto in the online Brittanica), and it belonged to the , which was under Spanish control from 1557 to 1707, so a voyage from  to  to Maremma does not at all look impossible.  --Lambiam 13:05, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

sere
made this change to etymology 2 of, which I reverted as it was not supported by the OED Online. His response (at "Talk:sere") was as follows:

 * "Hello, on my revision that you've undone: I haven't found the word in the 1933 edition of OED so I don't know what exactly it says, but my edit was motivated by what I hope you will agree are two unquestionable facts:
 * that there is no such verb as serēre~sereō in Latin, there is only serere~serō;
 * that serere and serō is the same word in two different forms (INF and 1SG PRES IND), therefore saying that serō comes from serere, let alone citing two separate meanings for forms of the same word, is misleading and lacks sense.
 * If the information in OED seems to disagree with either of these two facts, then I suggest we drop the OED reference altogether (possibly substituting any other dictionary mentioning the word) and either leave the Latin etymology to the Latin entry for serō, or copy it from there. Brutal Russian (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)"

I'm not in a position to assess the explanation, so kindly assist if you are familiar with Latin. Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

 * The perfect serui clearly shows this is a verb of the third conjugation, which all have a short thematic vowel, so the presentation serēre with a long ē is incorrect, like Brutal Russian said. The form sero is also a give-away; you cannot just make a long ē disappear like that. I don’t know what the OED says; does it really have a macron over the e? Just serere would have been correct, except that conventionally Latin and Greek verbs are lemmatized under the first-person singular present active instead of the infinitive, and we follow that convention. Many English dictionaries do not and use the Latin and Greek infinitive instead when giving etymologies. --Lambiam 21:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm unfamiliar with Latin, but etymology 2 at sere used serō, not sero, and I note that our Latin entry says serēre is either the second-person singular future passive indicative or second-person singular present passive subjunctive of serō. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:22, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Brutal Russian said all right. Almost needed to puke after reading out *serēre. There isn’t such a word and if there were it wouldn’t mean “to join one after another”.
 * Also I sometimes give the infinitive while linking to the 1st person singular present, does not matter or depends on what one wants to show of the verb. But of course the form must be right. Fay Freak (talk) 21:29, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. On checking, I note that the OED Online indicated the word as serĕre, but Oxford Dictionaries Online dropped the breve, using only serere. Should I indicate serere (in line with Oxford Dictionaries Online) as an inflected from of serō, or drop it entirely? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:22, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, so the INF serere and the 1SG ACT IND serō are two alterantive dictionary forms, the former natural to the speakers, the latter conventional - we may choose one or the other, but not both. Wiktionary uses the latter, but I prefer to give the infinitive whenever possible because the reason for the convention is opaque to me. As for the two seemingly different meanings the entry mentions, I had left the "to join one after another" as a compromise that perhaps is more illustrative of the semantic development, but that meaning is neither primary nor that given on Wiktionary (no wonder, with L&S as reference!). Thus I propose giving the infinitive form redirecting to the main entry (like that: serere) and give the meaning as "to link, string, join together" combining meanings #1 and #2 from the Oxford Latin Dictionary (I'll update the Latin entry accordingly in the meantime).Brutal Russian (talk) 09:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the reason for the convention is that this is how in antiquity word lists were lemmatized by Greek grammarians, simply because the first-person singular present active indicative was the first entry in the paradigm of a verb (like, , , ...). This was copied by the Romans, who were totally blown away by Greek culture and thought it was cool to do some Latin grammar in the same vein, and then copied again in the Renaissance by awe-struck scholars rediscovering Greek and Roman civilization. And then it became a tradition passed on by each generation of classicists to the next. Just so you know, we call something like  “pipe-linking” to the target, not “redirecting”.  --Lambiam 12:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I’ve tried to fix by giving the serēre forms their rightful places. Latinists, please double check ut ne futuerim sursum.  --Lambiam 11:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

We give the etymology of as a. But the Greek Wiktionary states that κράτος εν κράτει derives from. The phrase “imperium in imperio” is used in Spinoza’s Tractatus Politicus, chapter 6, paragraph 2, as well as in the preface to part 3 of his Ethica, without any suggestion of being derived from or related to earlier uses; the sense in the context (Imo hominem in natura veluti imperium in imperio concipere videntur) in these works has nothing to do with the political concept of state, the empires in question being humankind and nature. (Spinoza does not agree with the viewpoint expressed in the sentence. Elsewhere, in the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus chapter 17, he uses the term in a more political sense.) So which came first, the Greek or the Latin? If this is Ancient Greek (and not Katharevousa) the should have a spiritus lenis:. --Lambiam 10:19, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I cannot find at all that it is an ancient Greek expression and I corrected the el.wikt lemma with a rfe, . It may be written in polytonic κράτος ἐν κράτει (monotonic script κράτος εν κράτει), but that does not mean that it is ancient. I find the expression in greek books of the 1800s. The Latin (the Spinoza quotation) is more likely --sarri.greek (talk) 09:36, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

cool your jets
I'm wondering if this common phrase is connected to the Beatnik-era "blow one's jets" (or similar), meaning "to get all worked up". I would assume so, but considering the fact that only "cool your jets" survives contemporarily, despite other phrases from the era like "get bent out of shape" still possessing plenty of staying power. Tharthan (talk) 07:41, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can find attestation only back to 1970. But online sources connect the expression to "future slang" based on juvenile science fiction, such as by, the series, begun in 1948 with . DCDuring (talk) 09:32, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

sistren
Sense two, the singular with a plural sistrens, is listed as needing an etymology. The etymology is ultimately use / adaptation of sistren ("sisters") as a singular, no? Brethrens is also attested (in reference to things other than Rastafarianism). Are the Rastafarian terms derived via creole? - -sche (discuss) 21:59, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

The weird accentuation of Slavic, and
All three of these verbs are given by Derksen with an acute accent on the root. But at the same time, he also gives these as accent paradigm b, which is historically the class of verbs without an acute on the root. This seems like a contradiction. Are there really accent paradigm b words with acute roots? Jasanoff calls these "molō-presents", and traces them to original h₂e-conjugation verbs (which survive as a class only in Anatolian). —Rua (mew) 13:57, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Did you mean grave accents? --Lambiam 22:32, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Acute is a suprasegmental feature on syllables in Balto-Slavic, and in Slavic the acute accent is a specific kind of rising intonation that results when the accent of a word falls on a syllable that had the Balto-Slavic acute feature. It doesn't have anything to do with the symbol ´. —Rua (mew) 10:28, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

forecrier
Requesting verification that this was inherited from Middle English. Any citation between the sixteenth and twentieth centuries would suffice. DTLHS (talk) 18:02, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * An alternative possibility is that this term could have been revived from the Middle English word, which would make it a borrowing from Middle English. As English curricula have always featured studies on Middle English, exposure to Middle English writings have always exerted some influence on the modern language. The similarities between the two terms are compellingly close, perhaps too close to be merely coincidental. There are several publications of these ME works in the 19th century [] right before the reemergence of the word in the early 20th century... Leasnam (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

piraterij
The etymology gives pirateren + -ij as the first option. This seems implausible, because pirateren (spelt pirateeren in the WNT's spelling by De Vries & Te Winkel) would be pronounced. The alternative (piraat + -erij) seems more likely by far. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  09:38, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * A similar issue arises with the noun : is this from +, or  + ? Well, in all other cases where -ij might seem to be an option, the first e in -eren is unstressed, so the alternative -erij is indeed far more plausible. Also, for nominalizing verbs that denote an activity, -erij is the suffix of choice, whereas -ij is suffixed to nouns denoting people. So the option -ij is extremely implausible, so much so that I believe we can safely rule it out.  --Lambiam 11:17, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Latin nasus
Is this a loanword from another Italic language? (hence the lack of rhoticism)

RubixLang (talk) 16:28, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

 * A speculative idea: perhaps the existence of, according to Lewis & Short an alternative form of the adjective , blocked the otherwise obligatory rhotacism in this case. For another exception lacking a satisfactory explanation, see the noun . --Lambiam 20:42, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I found a paper “Exceptions to rhotacism” that mentions both nāsus and rosa (see Section 3.1), without offering – as far as I could see in a cursory examination – an explanation for these cases. --Lambiam 20:53, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

spear (adjective)
How was this formed? Ought we not to provide an etymology section for this part of the entry, or add a line or two to the general etymology section?

I can guess of three possible ways how it may have been formed off of the top of my head:

1. In reference to the more warful and hunting nature associated with men (so, thus, by analogy with distaff in its literal sense). Compare ♂.

2. Of lowbrow origin.

3. Similar to 2; by *mistaken* analogy with distaff (although this seems to be almost certainly not the case, because *a.* distaff is still known in its literal sense [and it also still has its {in my opinion} derogatory "woman's work" sense extended from its general sense], and *b.* if so, why not "staff" then? Not only would that be the logical result of a wrongful analogy, but it was in use ages ago in a slang sense that would have made the wrongful analogy be quite comprehensible)

Which one is it? Is there another possibility that I'm not considering? Tharthan (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

 * It may be questioned whether distaff and spear in these senses are true adjectives instead of attributive nouns. I don’t know if this is relevant, but in Sranan Tongo, for which English was the main lexifier, one of the meanings of is “erection”. The word also entered the Surinamese Dutch lexicon in the form, usually as an adjective (“having an erection“).  --Lambiam 21:15, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

German hager, English haggard
The etymology currently at 🇨🇬 seems a bit odd. I'd expected a relation to 🇨🇬. Does anyone have any insight? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:04, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The relation to 🇨🇬 (🇨🇬) the Trésor calls a folk etymology. They cut the etymology as obscure. The other etymologies mentioned in the French Wiktionary are even worse. Similarly the origin of German “hager” is unknown. It is plausible though that the French is from German (as it has an h aspiré). Fay Freak (talk) 17:12, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

мурава
I could use some assistance on two etymologies - Balto-Slavic and Latin(?). There are a few cognates, including 🇨🇬/ (etym 1). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:47, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

豺
RFV of the etymology, particularly "The sense 'jackal' has arisen because of the unfamiliarity of most modern Chinese speakers with dholes, since wild dholes are now very uncommon in China, and media featuring jackals is far more common than media featuring dholes. Most modern Chinese speakers are only familiar with 豺 as a wild canid that is neither a fox nor a wolf." — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * When I added that, I was making an assumption, but I thought it was a reasonable assumption. Now I realise I'm not supposed to do that...
 * After making that edit, I found this article which mentions that due to European scholars' unfamiliarity with dholes, 豺 was variously translated as "wolf", "jackal" or "ravenous beast" in old Chinese texts. What do you make of this? --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is probably a more likely description of why it's translated as "wolf" or "jackal". I've removed the etymology and added a usage note instead. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:58, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The new usage note only takes English translations into consideration; what about modern Chinese speakers? Please clarify. 68.193.209.173 19:06, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The definition given, i.e. dhole, is what modern Chinese speakers would refer to (at least according to most modern Chinese dictionaries). (not sure why you're not logged in) — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:13, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * But didn't you state above that most modern Chinese speakers are not familiar with dholes, and that they use this character to refer to jackals? I'm kind of confused. 68.193.209.173 19:44, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you're confused. It was Corsicanwarrah who made that claim above. I sent it here to verify the claim, which I have now removed because it doesn't seem to hold water. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:54, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I see; got it! Case closed. 68.193.209.173 19:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

spunk, punk
I personally find the etymology that we list to be the most likely, but I have also seen Scottish Gaelic spong (ultimately a cognate to English sponge), which means "tinder", given as the etymon by other sources. Is it possible that both were contributing factors to the English word, with the spark sense coming from where we say it comes from, but the "tinder" sense being also partially influenced by the Scottish Gaelic word?

And, on a similar subject, how likely is it that punk ultimately derives from spunk? This funk~spunk~punk spectrum of words seems particularly versatile. Tharthan (talk) 10:30, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added the Old Irish to the etymology Leasnam (talk) 19:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

macabre
This has a "reference" (a link to a mailing list) that isn't even available any more. Can someone add proper references? Particularly for "rejected by Romance linguists". DTLHS (talk) 22:14, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

 * We list dance macabre as a derived term (also at the French entry), but according to the etymology section at Le Trésor it is the other way around: the adjective comes from the name of the dance, with the earliest attestation (1376) in the form de Macabré la dance, later (> 1433) la dance De Macabré metaphorically for dying; then (1611) Danse Macabré for death, which becomes (1811) Danse Macabre. Le Trésor states that the derivations from Arabic are baseless and prefers to explain Macabré as a variant of the biblical name Macchabée, noting that the forms Judas Macabrés and judas macabre for are attested. There is also a Medieval attestation of the Latin designation choraea Machabaeorum, meaning “dance of the Maccabees”, presumably representing a theatrical portrayal of the martyrdom of the Maccabees. However, Le Trésor remarks, the hypothesis that this corresponds with la dance De Macabré conflicts with the fact that in all attested French versions Macabré is in the singular. Le Trésor mentions two further theories that seem somewhat obscure to me, according to which the name is that of a painter or a poet.  --Lambiam 10:49, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Arabic قاووش (qāwūš)
That it's a variant of is plausible, but far from obvious. So since Arabic is not one of the languages where we have standard dictionaries to check, this should probably be sourced. Particularly the part that is so specific as to make it a re-borrowing from Persian qafas. The phonology seems very far-fetched. Is there even a variant qavas in Persian? (Even if so, is usually replaced with  rather than .) And then what about the  part? 90.186.72.21 20:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The vocalism is absolutely no problem. The pattern KāLūM is popular in the dialects and applied onto everything. For a striking instance, is .  corresponds to 🇨🇬.  is  in dialects, because they really like this pattern. Many more examples, of which I hardly collected because this pattern by whole is not literary (the pattern is borrowed from Aramaic). You might look into the dialect atlas to see more.
 * This pattern could need an entry in Appendix:Arabic nominals to refer to it for people who do not know this, but then I won’t bear to write a comprehensive morphology of Arabic.
 * /s/ to /ʃ/ is a usual alternation in the vulgar tongue though not following a fixed rule. It usually appears arbitrarily when there is an imitative motivation. “To suck up”:, . There are also many Romance/Latin borrowings with /ʃ/ for /s/ freely since the sound does not exist in Latin. is  as well as  (zero logics),  is.
 * Maybe not obvious to the untrained ear. But you haven’t even proferred an alternative proposal. Fay Freak (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, without standard dictionaries, sourced how? There aren’t any dictionaries which have set a standard, nor do standard dictionaries aspire to include reliable derivations, nor has anyone ever published an etymological dictionary of Arabic, and often derivations have bidden in the class room, in the heads of the professors. Wiktionary is the first. The best one could do possibly, is to collect oldest uses, or refer to old historians noting the use of the word, which is very far with the current state of corpora availability and can be foreseen to not add anything more anyhow. Such words pop up and then the connection is like this. Fay Freak (talk) 22:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1.) You claimed that it's a variant of, so the vocalism is a giant problem, because a variant cannot take a completely different measure. It would then not be a variant, but another formation from the same root. Is that what you now claim?
 * 2.) I don't need to put forward an alternative proposal, you have to prove yours (or at least make it plausible).
 * 3.) What I said was that since Arabic has no standard dictionary, you should provide a source for your claims (e.g. an article from a journal). In languages like German, English, etc., we have standard dictionaries that can be considered default sources, so the etymology sections in these languages don't necessarily need a source. The same goes for other languages if the etymology is more or less obvious. Yours is all but that.
 * 4.) Since it has become obvious from your answer that you made the whole thing up in your mind, I will delete your etymology now. Best regards. 90.186.72.21 00:52, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No, that’s not even written by me, not my claims, and since it is now written as a “hypothesis”, nobody claims. Also you wouldn’t ask anyone who writes such articles “to provide sources”. The journal articles end up only conjecturing too. Or they end up writing nothing, like you like to delete rather than have anything possible written, because when one does not need to write an etymological dictionary containing every word one rather avoids to discuss what one is in doubt of. What can only help is to find quotes where an earlier form of the term is employed, and to find other forms in other languages with related meaning. Consider that Wiktionary is a secondary source. Fay Freak (talk) 02:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest here that it might be borrowed from Turkish koğuş that could also be used for "jail cell".--78.171.248.131 20:50, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Etymology for "Венгрия"
What is the etymology of this? (It means "Hungary" in Russian). 68.193.209.173 22:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The etymology is right there in the entry. From Polish, which lacks etymology but must be from Proto-Slavic . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:47, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, will edit the Polish entry accordingly. Shall I also add the Polish term to the list of derivatives at the bottom of the Proto-Slavic entry? I'm no expert in Slavic languages, and I don't want to make a mistake. 68.193.209.173 23:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No. If you don't understand something, don't edit it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:27, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The entry already has the Proto-Slavic etymology (*ǫgъrinъ). Russian  is derived from it. Polish country names like, , ,  are formed as inanimate plural forms from names of nationalities with a special declension.  is from . The actual plural for  is . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:38, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I rolled back the etymology addition by the anon user. As I said. Węgier is inherited (not derived) from *ǫgъrinъ but Węgry is formed from Węgier. It's not just the plural ending -y, it's a special type of forming of some Slavic country names. Someone with more knowledge should do it. All you can do if you DON'T know or don't know how is request it, e.g. with and discuss here.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:48, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * : Mh, I don't think is inherited from : where is the suffix? The Proto-Slavic entry gives  as a descendant, which seems to be a better match. Rather,  must come from the base word of  ( + ). Canonicalization (talk) 10:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * To be exact, yes, but -in/-yn is a suffix that is often dropped in Slavic languages to form new words, adjectives, etc. Russian (disused after Old East Slavic) is directly inherited from *ǫgъrinъ and  (dated) is also related with cognates in other modern languages. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What is the Proto-Slavic reconstruction with the suffix based on anyway? Anatoli argues that it was dropped in the Polish form, but what evidence is there that this is not the original situation? Polish may instead directly reflect a suffixless form of the word inherited from Proto-Slavic. —Rua (mew) 10:19, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is my speculation. I don't know if *ǫgъrъ exists but there are seemingly many descendants without the suffix. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:23, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * ? Canonicalization (talk) 17:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * : There you go, as I suspected, the suffix is dropped in various forms. The 🇨🇬 has the suffixless plural form . In Russian, the suffix  dropped in forming plurals or other PoS, e.g.  has the plural form  and the adjective is . See Vasmer's etymology of . (I'm hesitating to create this Russian entry  at the moment because I don't know the declension type and it's disused, as I mentioned). Also calling . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:17, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * *ǫgrъ can be reconstructed for suffixless forms. *ǫgrinъ is not derived from *ǫgrъ: Slavic singulatives in *-inъ imply the existence of a collective term, of which there is not sign, so it must be a direct adaptation of a foreign ethnonym. I’d make these variant forms, or just wouldn’t care. Guldrelokk (talk) 23:35, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (chiming in) I'm very at sea with the Slavic languages, but I was struck by the similarity to the term , a name for a Turkic-speaking group (specifically of the ) that had a major impact on the development of the Hungarian language and people. Any chance that the Slavic term is a borrowing of the Turkic?  This might explain that final, not as a suffix, but rather as part of the initial borrowing.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:43, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Vasmer agrees with you ("основаны на тюрк. этнониме ᾽Ονόγουροι (Приск, Агафий), ср.-лат. Hunuguri (Иордан), Onoguria terra (Географ Равеннский), булг. оn ogur, др.-тюрк. оn oguz "десять огузских родов""). In any case /r/ is part of the base word; the suffix is . Canonicalization (talk) 17:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

 * : I've had a go at . It contradicts some Russian sources saying (Wikipedia article on угры) that is unrelated to  - probably depends on the sense. The singular  is rarely used, it seems like a back-formation. I have also created . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:13, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The entry still needs checking. BTW, Vasmer says was borrowed from into Old Lithuanian (what's the code?) . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The other way around. Guldrelokk (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right, thanks! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Can we at least list Węgry as being derived from Węgier, without respect to the disputed ultimate origins? 68.193.209.173 23:10, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, is derived from . It's the simplest way to describe the etymology (a minimum requirement) but as I said above, along with, , , someone would need to describe the method of this formation - country names in plural (inanimate) with a special declension. The declension type seems archaic (locative ), compare with alternative locative plural  of  . I've seen online discussions but I don't feel confident to add the etymology and our Polish editors don't seem very active, let me try : could you help with the etymology or contribute to this discussion? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Aleksander Brückner, like Vasmer (but earlier), derives Węgr(z)y from Onogur. Russian (spelled Wiengrija) is from Polish. He also says that  was formerly used like  is today (but was it used solely?). I found some more Books ghits: in respect of the aformentioned suffix -inъ, a Kashubian etymological dictionary suggesting Węgrzyn is Old Polish, similar Kashubian result, Węgrzyn and Slavic ethnonymy. Modern dictionaries only mention  in the meanings of "a wine from Hungary" or "a door-to-door salesman (from Hungary)". And while we're at it,  is a similar word to, our Wiktionary entry suggests  as its etymology, A. Brückner for some reason has this word under untypical spelling  "węgry" (perhaps more common in his day). Wrzodek (talk) 20:54, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * : Thanks for your input. Good to see someone supporting the reconstruction . Do you know if there is a grammatical explanation for the plural forms and inflections of, , , ? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Related question: what about Hungary, Hungarian, etc?
If you look at the English etymology section for Hungary, it takes you to Medieval Latin Hungāria. If you look at the Latin etymology section for Hungaria, it takes you to Hungari or Ungari (most likely two variants of the same term) but does not specify a language, in addition to supplying a note that the initial h- appeared due to confusion with the Hunns, or Hunni. What language do those two terms belong to; I'm guessing Latin, but I could be wrong. Are those terms related to the Proto-Slavic, the Turkic, or the Old Lithuanian? If so, in what way? 68.193.209.173 22:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * All exonyms for Hungarians are from the Turkic name of the Onoğurs. Guldrelokk (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If you feel comfortable doing so, please update the etymology sections for all applicable entries (Hungary, Венгрия, Węgry, etc.). If you don't, let's bring this to the main discussion above and wait to hear the consensus of other users. 68.193.209.173 19:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * : There is probably not enough references to explain definitely. I have expanded a bit on Russian, which is different grammatically from Polish . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymology for
Although the entry lists both and  as roots, the first root seems not to have much connection with the word, and many sources list the word as a derivation of the second root. However, only the first root lists the word as a derivation.
 * How hasn’t it much connection to the root “to cut”? A sign is first and foremost something cut into something. Also a sign is something that one follows. With such abstract meanings one can posit anything. Fay Freak (talk) 10:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, the entry, has “perh. Sanscr. sag-, to cling to, adhere”. I suppose this corresponds to mentioned as a cognate at  and , and said to be from .  --Lambiam 11:22, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Cannot Proto-European also mean "to see, look at" ? Leasnam (talk) 21:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Fay Freak is right. Cf. IEW 895, Walde Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch 534 (rejecting the *sekʷ- etymology), Lubotsky Etymological dictionary of Latin 563, all for *sek-no- ‘cut’. The trivial semantic shift ‘mark’ > ‘sign’ has parallels like Finnish merkki. If anything, I would get rid of the *sekʷ- etymology, as I can’t find a major Latin or Indo-European source endorsing it. Guldrelokk (talk) 10:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

munshi
Could an Arabic speaker expand the etymology of ? The OED says the Arabic word is derived from the active participle anša'a ("to compose a piece of writing"), which is the causative of naša'a ("to come into being"). Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:36, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The verb you mention is . But I personally don't think the English entry needs to go into the Arabic morphology. The Arabic etymon (when it is created) can explain it there. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:00, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Fay Freak has created the Arabic etymon. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

краля
I have doubts about the Polish origin of the word - claimed by Vasmer. Does the word "kral" exist or did it exist in modern or Old Polish? Also, I think was added to the masculine form in Russian or Ukrainian. Cinemantique has responded on the Russian Wiktionary but I'm still not satisfied.

My gut feeling or understanding is that
 * 1) Czech  entered Russian or Ukrainian as, now hardly used.
 * 2)  was added but not sure Czech even has or ever had the feminine from . Polish doesn't have the word  either. Again, I think it was a Ukrainian addition - the feminine form.

In Ukrainian the term is much more frequent and prominent and not necessarily ironic as in modern Russian (we don't have a Ukrainian entry yet). It's also used in Belarusian. , Sorry for too many notifications, just ignore if you're not interested or don't know. Also calling who might help.

My questions are:
 * 1) Czech or Polish origin of Ukrainian/Russian?
 * 2) Does the feminine form exist in the source language or is it Ukrainian or Russian invention?
 * 3) There are indications that the term first entered Ukrainian and then Russian but it's hard to prove, since linguists often treated Ukrainian as "Western Russian" as part of Russian (not Old Ukrainian and Old Belarusian)

It's also a bit hard to search, as there are many instances of surname transliterations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Vasmer doesn’t ‘claim’ that though, he lists five references. Polish kral, kralka (dialectal klara, klarka) are old card terms 1 2 3. I am no expert in the transmission of card terminology, and I would just follow the etymological dictionaries. Guldrelokk (talk) 02:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I wasn't attentive and proactive enough and took a wrong way to search for answers. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:55, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Czech for queen is královna; I am unaware of Czech * or *. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

hold water
What's the etymology? Is it about a ship that can "hold water", i.e. remain afloat?

This site says that it's "used since the 1600’s, the idiom alludes figuratively to a container that cannot hold water and thus is useless. When an argument “has holes in it” the same allusion is suggested. As well, the related idiom “Swiss-cheese argument” refers to an argument with holes in it and thus one that “does not hold water.”"Canonicalization (talk) 18:11, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the allusion to a container holding water ( = being useful) is correct. Leasnam (talk) 18:23, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

 * In Jeremiah 2:13, Jahweh laments, “For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.” (KJV) Already a poetical metaphor in the Book of Jeremiah, I suspect this metaphor was the source of the current idiom: to say that a cistern/argument does not hold water is to say that it is broken. The KJV was published in 1611, so that would fit with “used since the 1600s”. The Wycliffe Bible already had “that moun not holde watris”, but it was not nearly as widespread and influential. --Lambiam 20:25, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've long been amused by the application of the metaphor as in:
 * DCDuring (talk) 23:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Bit of a Germanism there, Lambiam. When the name of God is written in English (by those who would write it), the first letter is... the English letter that corresponds to the sound value of the first letter that the German form of the Name has for that word, if you catch my drift. The reason why this case is an exception to the usual truth that Biblical names are written even in English with the letter that would be used in German and a number of other European countries is because the modern, accurate way of writing the Name in English if one is going to write it was first used after that historical method of transliteration of Biblical names (largely borrowed from French and German, from what I understand) was no longer current. Plus, it would have led to an inaccurate spelling pronunciation by most English speakers. Tharthan (talk) 02:36, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why, yes, but this standard is a double standard; otherwise one would write Yeremiah, as the German is . It is also violated by the Name Jehovah, which is what the American Standard Version has. The spelling Jahweh used to be an accepted spelling in English for those who preferred to use the historical vocalization of HaShem, as seen e.g. in Volume VII (Hymms—Liberty) of the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics of 1915. --Lambiam 10:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why, yes, but this standard is a double standard; otherwise one would write Yeremiah, as the German is . It is also violated by the Name Jehovah, which is what the American Standard Version has. The spelling Jahweh used to be an accepted spelling in English for those who preferred to use the historical vocalization of HaShem, as seen e.g. in Volume VII (Hymms—Liberty) of the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics of 1915. --Lambiam 10:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Beverley / Beverly
Please would someone check the etymology of these two words. Unfortunately, I have very little etymological or Old English knowledge.

I assume Beverly is a later variant spelling of Beverley (I think the Yorkshire town of Beverley was so-spelled long before any speaker of English or any Germanic language sailed to America, let alone reached Los Angeles, though I could be wrong), so the etymology would preferably be at Beverley rather than at Beverly as at present.

Far more serious, either the etymology is wrong, or neither we nor the OED have an entry for one of the words (and we have a faulty link).

The claimed etymology is shown as +.

That would be fine, except that we do not have an entry for lēac, and the wikilink takes us to ang|leac||leek (and the same word in Irish/Scottish Gaelic means slab, etc).

The OED claims that it is léac which means leek, and only has leac as a verb meaning to close in, lock (which I was pleased to see, since I now see why canal locks were so called). Like us, OED does not have an entry for lēac. (My apologies if these differences in accents are trivial, but as I said, I know very little about Old English.)

While, if ang|lēac really does mean river, that seems a logical combination, it differs from the etymology I had previously seen. I had been interested in it for years, since I was brought up near the Beverley Brook (Ignore the etymology in that article -- I wrote it years ago, to match what follows!). What I understood, taken from one of the two books entitled A dictionary of London Place Names, neither of which I have to hand at present, is that while the first part derived from ang|beofor, which became ME bever and now beaver, the second was from ang|lēah||clearing/glade/meadow, which became ME lea/ley/lei/leigh (which all still exist multiple times in place names, though only ley seems to have still been in occasional use within the last 50 years, though with the meaning of temporary (crop rotating) pasture rather than a permanent meadow as in ME. (I did believe that I'd seen it defined as water meadow, and certainly all the places that come to mind with that name are on flood plains, but I can't find any evidence of that meaning today.)

So, is ang|lēac||stream a correct definition (in which case, we should probably have an entry for it and correct the misplaced link) and in any case, is that the etymology of -ley in Beverley, or should it be from ang|lēah||clearing/glade/meadow and ME lea/ley/lei/leigh? The name of the stream Beverley Brook would be tautological if the former is correct, and it would be strange for the town Beverley to translate as Beaver River, particularly as it is positioned on the banks of the River Hull, which also appears to be an old name. However, oddities like this do exist elsewhere, so that is not conclusive. Also, since the original meaning of ang|lēah||clearing/glade/meadow seems to have been a clearing in a wood (does the later change in meaning suggest early-English agriculture was based on cutting down trees, just as still occurs in the Amazon basin and much of Africa?) and since beavers gnaw down trees to build dams, the idea of Beaver Clearing/Meadow seems just as appropriate as Beaver River. --Eng in ear 22:48, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Or it could be none of the above. In the Middle English dictionary entry for bever, there's a quote (under 2c): "Beverlay [L Beverlacum]..is at the este from Yorke..as the place or lake of bevers or of grayes [L quasi locus vel lacus castorum]". Chuck Entz (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Here is the Latin original of the quoted passage, with two Middle English translations on the next page. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting! (I was slightly surprised that I could still understand the gist of the Latin -- it probably means it was written by someone with a very small Latin vocabulary!) According to [w:Beverley#Northumbrian_and_Viking_period] the town was founded in 7th century, so I suspect Beverlacum is a calque of the name in the local North-Anglian OE dialect.  'pedia then goes on to say "The name of the town was changed to Bevreli or Beverlac, meaning beaver-clearing or beaver-lake, in the 10th century; a reference to the colonies of beavers in the River Hull at the time." referencing Hopkins The History of Beverley from the Earliest Times to the Year 2003, which doesn't seem to have even a snippet available online.  However, if we assume for the present that the text accurately reflects the reference, I think they have solved the problem, at least as far as Beverley, E Yorks is concerned.  It looks as if two names were in use for a time:
 * Beverlac (assuming Hopkins is correct, this must be a dialectal shortening of Beverlacu) = Beaver lake, which was then calqued to Beverlacum (oddly, as pointed out in lake, ang|lacu, although synonymous with all, is not cognate with Latin lacus or Scottish Gaelic loch (also loaned to Scots) or indeed ang|lagu). This name appears to have been used in the ref you gave, which must have been written after 1326 (mentioned on the last page of the Intro as the last full year Ranulf Higden covered -- the rest was added by others) and 1364 (when he died).  Both translations into ME used Beverlay. According to the frontispiece, the first one was by John Trevisa which, according to Dialogue on Translation Between a Lord and a Clerk was published in 1387, and the second was a few decades later, by "an unknown writer of the 15th century", which, if we use lay, is a correct translation, but...
 * Bevreli, which presumably morphed to Beverley = beaver clearing/meadow, where ley has alternative forms including lea, leigh and lay.
 * So now, re Beverley, E Yorks, at least by 400 yrs after 2 alternative names were noted, we have two homographs (and probably homophones too), one for each definition. And although Beverlay can be a calque of Beverlacum, itself a calque of Beverlac, it is not a particularly obvious word to choose -- surely, the original Beverlac, or the ME equivalent Beverlake, would be more likely to be chosen.  So I suggest that the fact two different translators, whose texts differ significantly in the surrounding sentences, both chose Beverlay, is probably because they knew that that was what the settlement was now called!
 * So, my summary of the present position (bearing in mind I am not too au fait with our etymology style, so please correct me) is:
 * As yet, we have found no evidence for the present etymology ( + ) but it is early days yet. The etymology was added by User:Makaokalani.  I'll alert him.
 * For Beverley, E Yorks, it seems likely that the etymology is something like "From (previously both Bevreli and Beverlac), from  + either or both  and.
 * For all other Beverleys and Beverlys, the same ambiguity would apply unless there was evidence to the contrary --Eng in ear 05:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (TL;DR) – It is not necessarily the case that all Beverl(e)ys have the same etymology. --Lambiam 14:22, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is long, which is why I put a 7 line summary at the end, which inter alia says just that. --Eng in ear 22:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * My source was Hanks&Hodges Dictionary of First Names. You're very welcome to give better and more exact etymologies. I don't know any dead languages, I'm mainly interested in given names: which language they come from and why were they taken up. The literal meaning often plays no role in it. Also, place names were not accepted in the wiktionary of 2007.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC) Added the surname definition to Beverley.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Is this from or  + ? There are plenty of Romance etymologies to clean up either way. Ultimateria (talk) 23:04, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * While is an adjective – although the feminine  is used as a noun, short for, the art of anatomy –  is strictly a noun.  is a variant of , which comes from  (see ), and this has probably influenced the form of the Latin noun for the profession of anatomist: anatomic(a) + . Cf. , in which the suffix is , not .  --Lambiam 13:38, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * So what's the source for the adjectives for "anatomic" in Romance languages? Ultimateria (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I may have spoken to hastily. L&S only mention anatomicus (in the lemma anatomia) as a noun meaning “anatomist”, but the word has later also been used by Augustine in De anima et eius origine (aka De natura et origine animae) as an adjective with the meaning “pertaining to anatomy”. Le Trésor considers a borrowing from this Late Latin adjective. Since Augustin also uses anatomicus in De civitate Dei as a noun for the profession, it is plausible that he repurposed the term as an adjective; most Latin nouns on -icus, like  and, are adjectives used as nouns, so this would be a rather natural thing to do. It is not impossible that he knew the word as an adjective from Greek, but it is known that his acquaintance with Greek literature was very limited.  --Lambiam 04:30, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

εὑρίσκω (heurískō)
To someone more than I, this proposition:

"" may be in some relation to the PIE construct "*h₂éristos"--kin to Latin's "ars".

At the very least, I see a semantic link somewhat approximated by "power by (means of) discernment".

 * Isn’t a superlative formed from the root, of which the first part of the verb  =  +  is a reduplicated descendant? I think  is likewise formed with the suffix . The entry  traces  back to , “to find”. I have no opinion on how plausible this is.  --Lambiam 14:06, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Looking further, I see the proposed PIE roots are really all over the place, none with any supporting evidence, varying from (Pokorny) to  (Beekes) to  (Taillardat). In summary: Etymology unknown.  --Lambiam 14:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you misread Pokorny, he derives εὑρίσκω from *u̯er- ‘finden, nehmen’, same as Beekes, not *u̯er- ‘weit’. Same LIV 698 (*u̯reh₁- ‘finden’) with references. Guldrelokk (talk) 02:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

dumbledore
Based upon the dates of earliest attestation (that I can find), this appears to have most likelily been coined based off of bumblebee.

bumblebee is an alteration of the older humblebee, perhaps (and I'm speculating on this) first jocularly (think "It's not a humble bee, Cliff, it's a bumble bee!"), or alternatively perhaps an honest (mis)analysis of the word "humble" in the word "humblebee" (thinking that it is from "hum" + frequentative -le [would seem odd as a formation normally, but folk etymology is a funny thing, as we know]), and then thinking that "humble" (as an [imagined] derivative of "hum") is not really used, thus driving the desire to change it to "bumble" instead, 'or' perhaps from mishearing/misremembering "humblebee" as it would be spoken in an h-dropping dialect; /ˈʌmbəl(.)biː/, perhaps with subconscious influence from the "b" in "bee".

It could, of course, be a bit of all three. But this is just speculation.

"dumbledore" seems to have been coined later, and I posit that it was coined based off of "bumblebee". dor could already be used to mean "bumblebee", so "dumbledore" was probably an alliterative extension, modelled on "bumblebee".

Thoughts? Tharthan (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

 * The variant bumbledore can be attested:, , , . One possible road is that bumbledore comes from older dumbledore, modified by the influence of bumblebee. Another possibility is that bumbledore is older and gave rise to dumbledore by alliteration, similar to humblebee → bumblebee.

 * An interesting snippet of info is to be gleaned here – unfortunately all we get to see. With some effort I managed to extract a larger segment:
 * “... onomatopoeic origin, are very loosely applied to any large flying insect which makes a humming or buzzing noise. Engl. Dial. Dict give bumbledore and bumbledrum as in use in Somerset and Devon for a bumblebee. In my experience, the commonest term for a bumblebee is drummel-drane (i.e. drumble-drone), while the cockchafer is more usually oakweb. (pronounced oak’ub). But Eng. Dial. Dict gives dumbledore for bumble-bee, cockchafer, and large black dor beetle.”
 * --Lambiam 13:14, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

We have “Origin unknown; perhaps from .” I think it is much more plausible that this is a cognate of and, which both go back on , earlier , hypothesized to come from a Vulgar Latin diminutive of , thus originally meaning “foal”. --Lambiam 12:13, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Middle English Dictionary also shows this "probably from ". The Middle English word is attested from 1307 as bollardes (plural). The Dutch word, however, is not attested till 1565 as polder (initially with a p) and only later acquires the initial b around 1856. So it would be a stretch to get bollard from Dutch polder or Old French poltre, poultre. This coupled with the historical timing may make it improbable to be linked to the Dutch/Frech word. Leasnam (talk) 14:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Why does a drone drone?
Buzz! Buzz! Buzz! I wonder why he does? Is it pure coincidence that a male bee, while flying, tends to produce a low-pitched buzz? The noun and the verb (in this sense) appear not to be cognates. (The question was prompted by my seeing that a dor – a cognate of – is defined as an insect making a droning noise while flying.)  --Lambiam 12:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, can't PIE *dʰrēn- "male bee" be connected somehow to *dʰer- "to buzz" ? Maybe it's not a coincidence at all :) Leasnam (talk) 14:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The noun and the verb are unquestionably related. Germanic *drunjanan ‘to drone’ is simply a denominative from *drunan- ‘drone’. Lubotsky (Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic 101) derives Germanic *drenan- and its variants from IE *dʰr-en- with individualizing suffix, along with a few Greek words, while others may not go further than *dʰren- (I don’t find any other formations from *dʰer- ‘buzz’); the ‘different’ roots in the English entry are an artifact of mindlessly mixing different sources. It is beyond doubt that onomatopoetic *dʰr- is underlying. The Balto-Slavic words may reflect the voiceless variant *tr-. Guldrelokk (talk) 02:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Besides, OE dran, dræn ‘drone’ cannot possibly stem from Germ. *drēn-, which would give OE *drōn. The correct reading is probably drăn with a short vowel, while Eng. drone is from the Germ. variant *drunan-. See Kroonen The Proto-Germanic n-stems 154. Guldrelokk (talk) 03:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, as . Enlightening. Leasnam (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The above may explain the Old English ( < 🇨🇬 ?) though the byform 🇨🇬 is unusual in that it's not, but Old Saxon and Old High German both have variants with a long vowel: 🇨🇬 (beside 🇨🇬) and 🇨🇬 (beside 🇨🇬). What is the origin of these long-vowel variants ? Maybe the Old English is the result of two separate but related roots that fused ? Leasnam (talk) 15:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * is there any paradigm that you know of that could level PIE into PGmc ē and a ? I'm still assuming this is a Germanic u-stem Leasnam (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * After thinking about this, had the vowel in OE drān been short from it would be *dranu or *drænu. If it had been an i-stem it would end in -e, *drene (cf.  from ); and if re-analysed as an o-stem also dranu. The closest relative to OE  is OSX, even though OE / is declined like an i-stem. Could it be a borrowing from Old Saxon to account for the fact that the ān didn't become nasalised to ōn ? Leasnam (talk) 22:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It must have gone from to WGmc  and, then to OE  and . Leasnam (talk) 22:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of
The etymology of is:

From, , from , from , from , ,.

While the etymology of is:

For, maybe through (compare 🇨🇬), from.

Should the etymologies be fixed?

 * They have been fixed already. Also, I know you're a newbie here, but you're supposed to sign your messages using four tildes. 68.193.209.173 23:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The etymology at appears to call the transition  →  “dissimilation”, but I don’t see which other phoneme in gnōria is similar to the /n/.  --Lambiam 10:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It's definitely not dissimilation. A change of gn to gl improves the sonority of the onset cluster (compare the change of kn/gn to kr/gr in many Goidelic varieties), but I'm unaware of any other instance of such a change in Latin. The usual treatment of word-initial gn in Latin is to simplify it to n (gnōtus > nōtus), so I'd expect a *gnōria to become *nōria, not glōria. Deriving glōria from seems like grasping at straws to me. If it's possible to get the phonology to work,  seems semantically like the most likely PIE root to be the source. I know *ǵʰ before a vowel becomes h in Latin, but I don't know what happens to *ǵʰ before l. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * *[gn] became [ŋn] already in the prehistory of Latin. A change *[ŋn] > [gl], if more recent, is dissimilative. Guldrelokk (talk) 13:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That is a duplex dissimilation: each of the two similar phonemes is being dissimilated from its twin! Is it possible that the journey went like * → * → * → ? --Lambiam 13:58, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

canard
I've seen a particular French (as in, the interpretation comes from French speakers) interpretation of cane ("duck") as being from Latin anas ("duck"), with an arbitrary epenthetic c-.

The idea that an arbitrary c- (in particular) was just suddenly added sounds doubtful to me, but could cane be a fusion of anas, and some word of onomatopoeic origin that referred to an animal sound?

Is our current etymology a canard? Do we have quacks as etymology writers? Have our editors been making ducks and drakes of their time? Tharthan (talk) 15:43, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a personal attack, Tharthan. Regardless of validity, is that really something you want to do ? The material for the current etymology can be easily sourced online. Leasnam (talk) 16:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The old French word has both the meaning of "boat" and "waterfowl". It seems plausible that the word through the "boat" sense ties to . Not saying that anas might not have contributed, but how would we explain the c ? Leasnam (talk) 16:22, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not very personal, and the high percentage of puns suggests that the attack part wasn't serious. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:54, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm good. It just doesn't seem very um, necessary. If there is an issue with an etymology, then the beef is with the etymology and the source, not the editor. We're not supposed to be "crafting" our own etymologies anyway. Right ? Leasnam (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course it wasn't necessary. The literal "meaning" was just there to set up the puns. It shouldn't be construed as an attack any more than than "This morning, I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How the elephant got in my pajamas, I'll never know" should be construed as an assertion about the sartorial preferences of pachyderms. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see that now. I'm just being paranoid. I just always expect everyone to know that every etymology in question is mine...since one can just look up the history. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but I always give the benefit of the doubt :) Leasnam (talk) 17:58, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

scorrevole
What is the etymology of this Italian word? 68.193.209.173 00:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose it is, “being able to slide”. --Lambiam 09:55, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, very much. 68.193.209.173 19:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

blauwe
RFV of the etymology for the noun. Said to be "from the apparent blue colour of the gums of Indonesian people". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  13:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Another explanation I have heard is that it is related to the so-called prevalent among new-born Austronesians. Yet another explanation, which I heard from a waitress at an Indonesian restaurant named “Blauw”, is that it comes from a blue sheen on the pitch-black hair of some Indonesians. The multiplicity of proposed etymologies suggests that the origin is unknown.  --Lambiam 13:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymon for Persian آلو (Etymology 1)
What is the etymology of Persian (Etymology 1; not to be confused with Etymology 2 !)? Is it cognate to Sanskrit ?—Lbdñkundefined 16:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of Old French quanque
The most apparent etymology for this word seems to be from Latin, a compound of quam ("as much as, how, how much, as, than") and -que ("and"). The thing is, though, that *quanque and *quamque are not even attested words in Latin! (Sure, it does appear on a few unreliable websites here and there, but that doesn't really count, does it?)

Quisque is a Latin pronoun that definitely exists, meaning "each one" or "anyone". One might believe that *quanque or *quamque is an inflected form of quisque, but it is not, because quisque is based on the interrogative pronoun quis/quis/qui, of which quam is not an inflected form, not the relative pronoun qui/quae/quod, of which quam is an inflected form.

My question is this: how did Old French quanque develop? Was it a post-Latin compound, or am I wrong about the word *quanque/*quamque not existing in Latin? I would be very interested to know about this all. 68.193.209.173 20:08, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * See fr:quanque. Guldrelokk (talk) 04:26, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Italian dunque
A few of the possible etymologies for this adverb-meaning "then", "afterwards", "hence", "therefore", or "thus"-involve *dumque, an unattested Latin pronoun or adverb. Apparently, this is supposed to be a combination of Latin dum and umquam. Dum means "while" or "as long as", and umquam means "ever"; any sources that specify a reconstructed definition for *dumque, or if not, any ideas as to what it may have meant? 68.193.209.173 20:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No shortage of theories here, but a dearth of conclusive evidence. According to the Dizionario Etimologico online, a web version of ’s Vocabolario etimologico della lingua italiana,  is a shortening of, for which the theories vary as being from  ,  ,  <  = , and a combination of these working towards the result.  --Lambiam 15:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of latin venenum
A venenum is not a "love potion", and not linked with the "love" INE root, it is a liquid and as such, I'd mention the Lewis & Short etymology of virus i.e. INE u̯eis- ("flow"); to this root, Pokorny links vena (as for ves-na). --Diligent (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It doesn’t seem formally possible: venēnum has a short root vowel. Venēnum < *wenez-no- is an adjective in -no- from Venus, an s-stem. Lubotsky Etymological Dictionary of Latin 660 has a short comment on the semantics. Guldrelokk (talk) 19:51, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

κεράννυμι (keránnumi)
A small suggestion: the etymology suggests the PIE construct *ḱerh₂ (which is good), however this skips the intermediary of: κεραός (keraós) + -νῡμῐ (-nūmi).

A heretical alternative could be κεραός (keraós) + νεύω (neúō)--a sense of "nodding of the river/horn," which approximates "mixture" (keránnumi) but this is too speculative to be taken seriously.

==> Also, a note should be included, in the definition of keránnumi, to the significance of "diluting the wine with water" (Hurrah for drinking horns).
 * The *ḱerh₂- in question is *k̑erh₂- ‘mischen’ (LIV 328, IEW 582). I do not believe it can possibly be identical with *k̑erh₂- ‘horn’, there is no semantic connection whatsoever. In any case, Gr. κεράννυμι is most certainly not denominative; see the LIV entry for details on the formation. Guldrelokk (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Figurative
The figurative meaning of is listed under Etymology 2,. Yet the verb gives a 2008 quotation in which the past participle of the verb means, figuratively, “come off its hinges”, that is, mentally disturbed. A much older use is in George Eliott’s 1861 novel ', in the beginning of Chapter 2: “Minds that have been unhinged''' from their old faith and love, ...”. Clearly, the “old faith and love” are the frame that used to offer support; the issue is not so much that the hinges of these minds have been removed, as that they have come loose from the hinges, so that they are no longer hinged. If that leaves any doubt, here are two quotes from an 1803 commentary on the bible: “After having unhinged the public mind, ...” ; “The moſt ſacred ties of ſociety muſt have been unhinged by ſuch an unnatural aſſociation; ...”. In both, the word unhinged is clearly a past participle. There are also plenty of hits for “unhinging effect”. In light of this evidence I think that listing figurative under Etymology 2 is improper. (BTW, the usex an unhinged door for the sense “not furnished with a hinge” is ambiguous.) --Lambiam 13:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2019/June

Latin, I think
 * Chuck Entz has now written the etymology. —Lbdñk, 20:40, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of Latin
Is this Latin word from ? —Lbdñkundefined 20:20, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Either that or + . —Mahāgaja · talk 06:57, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the latter etymology that you suggested (i.e., suffixed with ) is correct, as shown here. However, all Latin words derived from  but  retain the long vowel (ū); so could you account for this odd one out? —Lbdñk, 17:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Is there evidence the u is short in ? Or have we simply failed to mark it long in our entry? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Charlton T. Lewis, An Elementary Latin Dictionary is known to mark the long vowels correctly as against the other references that we have here for Latin. However, sadly, it does not inhold nullibi. And other references, though having this word, are not serious with vowel lengths. Though I think it should be ū. —Lbdñk, 20:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I also have the problem that my dictionaries either don't mark long vowels in closed syllables or else don't list, but I agree that this word is extremely likely to have ū. By the way, I'm not getting your pings, and I don't know why. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:33, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

, do you not think the word should have a long u? Thanks! —Lbdñk, 17:28, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

uscire
Where does the u- come from? Wouldn't be phonologically expected? —Mahāgaja · talk 06:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I've always been puzzled by this. ? Canonicalization (talk) 22:26, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * There is an older variant of the word found as escire actually. And if you look at the conjugation, certain forms begin with es-. The conjugated forms with accent or emphasis on the ending begin with the stem us- while the ones with the emphasis on the initial stem begin with es-. For example, èsco, èsci, èsce, usciamo, uscite, èscono. As to why uscire emerged in the first place.. I'm not sure but I think it may have had influence from . Word dewd544 (talk) 04:38, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

kun
The etymology of kun is apparently wrong, except perhaps for the dialectal use as a pronoun meaning joka, which is listed incorrectly under the entry for the conjunction. The Finnish Wiktionary claims that the word derives from kuin. --Espoo (talk) 01:05, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * doesn't come from, rather they come from the same source as they are both instructive forms of the pronominal stem ku- (nominative ). kun is the singular instructive while kuin is the plural instructive. It seems that the two were originally simply variants of each other with kuin being more popular, but when the language was standardized, they were artificially separated (compare ~ ). — surjection ⟨?⟩ 07:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the interesting info! I did some research and the Nykysuomen etym. sanakirja indirectly says ("kieliopillisesti ajatellen ikivanhasta pronominivartalosta ku- muodostettu") and (according to the Finnish Wiktionary) Hakulinen apparently directly says that kun is an artificially created variant of kuin that did not really exist before the 19th century. So even though kun can be gramatically analyzed as the instructive case of ku-, it did not actually develop from that.
 * And the dialectal use of kun as a pronoun meaning joka should not be listed under the entry for the conjunction. --Espoo (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * kun is attested from the 18th century at least: "Minä olen mies, ja en minä ole mies, mutta kun multa pää poikkileikataan, nijn minä wasta miehexi tulen, ...", from Suomalaiset Arwotuxet compiled by Christfried Ganander (1741-1790). Either case I would fail to see why such an "artificial" word would be created. I can agree that the modern distinctions between and  are artificial, though. The instructive case explanation is the one that makes the morphological sense, since it was often used to derive conjunctions and such words. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 10:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Worth noting that Karelian has and, considered by Karjalan kielen sanakirja to be variants of , and EES lists many Finnic languages with corresponding words for  and , often in the forms ku(n) and kui(n) (Ingrian: ku, kui, Ludian: ku, kui, Veps: ku, kui), most of them being variants of each other, which further proves that the two 1. were originally variants and 2. are both probably organic rather than artificially created. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 10:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

ixnay, amscray
I know that it was formed in the area of childhood colloquiality, but do we have any idea where the -ay comes from, ultimately?

Pig Latin may not be connected to Latin, but could there have been some attempt to imitate a Latin sound (or a sound that was popularly perceived to be Latin-sounding) early on?

With Dog Latin, Shakespeare had:

"[...]thou hast it ad dunghill"

"[...]false Latin; dunghill for unguem."

...

Perhaps the shifting (or removal) of the first letter of a word already existed then conceptually in argot-esque speech (or the like). Or perhaps this was actually ad unguem being misheard as "ad dunguem", hence "ad dung(h)ill". I don't know, but if it is that old, perhaps the whole "-ay" bit is also very old as well.

In addition, the Wikipedia article mentions (in addition to the previous) that there is an 1866 attestation of a "Hog Latin" that had:

‘Wig-ge you-ge go-ge wig-ge me-ge?’ ("Will you go with me?")

‘No-ge, I-ge wo-ge.’ ("No, I won't.")

I ask this because I happened to respond to someone in Pig Latin on a forum earlier, and this question came to mind. Tharthan (talk) 03:09, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

dysphemism
RFV of the etymology. Google Books offers results from the 19th century for dysphemism, but not for, where the oldest hits are from just after 1900. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  12:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The Online Etymological Dictionary says it was "rediscovered" in 1933 from the French word. I interpret that to mean it was coined in English in the 19th century but didn't catch on; then the French word was coined in 1927 and the English word resurrected in 1933 as a borrowing of the French. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That seems possible, though the chronology must be different from what the Online Etymological Dictionary gives: 1906 French, 1921 English] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  11:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Pogue
Wikipedia has stated that the etymology for “pogue” is deficient. How’s about this?: The taxonomic name of the North American oppossum’s genus is pogoensis (sp?). I think it has something to do with a Latin word meaning stick, specifically, a stick upon which meat is skewered to cook and/or eat. North American oppossums are famous for their semi-prehensile tails, that is, tails which they are able to briefly wrap around a tree branch to suspend themselves in order to escape predators. The hanging oppossum may have recalled skewered meat to European explorers. “Pogo” was the eponymous main character of the 20th-century American newspaper comic strip by Walter Kelly. Kelly was fond of etymological humor and Pogo was most commonly duplicated as an easy going fellow who carried all his belongings with him, wrapped in a tied kerchief at the end of a stick carried on his shoulder. Helpful I hope.
 * Just off the top of my head:
 * This is Wiktionary, not Wikipedia
 * The North American opossum is Didelphis virginiana
 * is a Latin suffix added to words for places
 * I haven't bothered to look up Latin words for sticks, but I would be astonished if there's anything to this.
 * Let me guess: you wanted to work Pogo into the etymology, so you decided to make something up and see if anyone would notice. Either that, or you're trolling. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:25, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

sonder
How can this neologism be of related derivation to both German sonder- (which is related to English "sunder") and French sonder which is a verb derived from a Germanic language word relating to water. These words are not related in the slightest, so I don't know what our etymology section is talking about. Tharthan (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Related to is an unfortunate choice of words. Apparently the coiner was inspired by these two etymologically entirely unrelated words, or, if you prefer, the coinage was informed by them (sense 5). --Lambiam 17:42, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

kvlt
A one-time contributor has added "koolt" to the etymology. It is used as an alternative form, but is there any basis to having an English term "koolt" at the origin of this? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  10:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Clearly nonsense; I've removed it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

sói
When did the sense 'wolf' arise?

The word is a native Vietnamese word, having been inherited from Proto-Vietic, where the word meant "dhole". All cognates of the Vietnamese word, including Muong, mean 'dhole'. See. As wild Canis lupus has never lived in Vietnam, the sense 'wolf' is thus fairly recent (presumably no earlier than the 20th century). However, the word sói is now understood among most Vietnamese speakers to refer to Canis lupus, so the Vietnamese for 'dhole' most commonly used in publications is (red "wolf") or  (fire "wolf").

The sense "Siamese jackal" is present because I saw the term used on the Vietnamese Wikipedia as well as some Vietnamese news sites in reference to the jackal. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 11:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

stoop (the verb)
Why wasn't this impacted by the Great Vowel Shift? Its Dutch cognate underwent the typical (comparable) shift.

In cases like room, there was no shift because that particular environment (before "m"), and with "beetle", there seems to have been particular desire to keep the pronunciation.

What's the reason in this case? Are coop and droop similar cases? Tharthan (talk) 05:12, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * English to this day has a phonotactic constraint against /aʊ/ before noncoronal consonants. Old English ū (and u in an open syllable where pre-GVS lengthening is expected) always becomes /uː/, /ʊ/ or /ʌ/ before a labial or velar consonant. You noticed stoop and room; there's also, , . —Mahāgaja · talk 12:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

padam
The origin is probably Tamil. I'd try something but working with non-Roman alphabets is above my pay grade. --I learned some phrases (talk) 12:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Tamil is not even written using an alphabet, but with an abugida. In Tamil script this is பதம், which is not obvious – would give patam.  --Lambiam 20:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * According to Tamil phonology, there's an intervocalic allophone [ð], so I don't see a problem getting from Tamil patam to an English loan padam. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

nucha (Latin)
The OED suggests was borrowed from  (as indicated in our entry), and additionally "confused with nuqra nape of the neck". Any idea what that latter word might be? — SGconlaw (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * which allegedly means “hollow of the neck”, “creux au bas de l’occiput”, “scrobs in occipitis inferiore parte (ubi desinit pars protuberantior occipitis)”, and even “the cavity of the eye” and “the orifice of the anus”. Wasn’t aware that there are hollows on people’s necks. (According to worse dictionaries and mentioners, it just means “neck”.) More at Joseph Hyrtl who translates then as “Nackengrube” and “Hinterhauptgrube” – don’t know what that is. From the descriptions I find in the books with this German, and they give various Latin names like “fossa nuchae” and “Fossa occipitis media” in addition to the strange enough medieval ones like “interscalpium”, maybe it is the ? Fay Freak (talk) 08:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks. Will add that to the etymology. (By the way, there seems to be a typo at : "hollow of the backneck"?) — SGconlaw (talk) 10:54, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I have found that is a word.  is also a word. Fay Freak (talk) 12:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Gee, that’s got to be a pretty rare word. I’d suggest using simpler language. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * “Nackengrube” and “Hinterhauptgrube” literally mean “neck groove” and “back-of-the-head groove”. You can find your groove back if you feel your nape with a finger a bit higher up, where the skull is already beginning. It is the area between the left and right parts of the upper trapezius. If you then move your finger transversely, you will feel a shallow depression in the middle. In most people this is covered by hair and therefore not readily visible, but in some people with a shaved-up nape it can actually be quite prominent. --Lambiam 20:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Is "finding your groove back" anything like "getting your groove back"? Tharthan (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

jargon
If this is from Old French gargun, then how is this composed? Onomatopoeic "garg-" + -on (the French diminutive suffix?) Tharthan (talk) 04:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

phreno-
Just curiosity. Does the etymology for this two very-different-organ related senses of the same suffix mean that the Greek supposed the ability of inteligence to dwell in the chest? Wasn't it the pneuma? Wasn't it the heart? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 14:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The basic meaning of in relation to the human body is “breath”, which by extension means “life” – as long as someone is breathing, they aren’t quite dead, yet. Aristotle famously thought that the function of the brain was to keep our heads cool – like a heat-exchanging radiator for cooling the blood. That kind of leaves only the “upperbelly” for the more elevated aspects of mind, those that are higher than our visceral emotions. I don’t know if any ancient philosopher ever seriously considered the question how human intelligence came about and whether it had an identifiable anatomical seat.  --Lambiam 19:58, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Click onwards to φρήν for some explanation... AnonMoos (talk) 07:27, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Merci. But it was that mix of having both sense 2 for emotions and s. 3 for intellect that made me confused. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

rosemary
Regarding the etymology section, can we get a citation for Old English rōsmarim? I can't seem to find any attestations of that through a swift search. Tharthan (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * MED [|here], which is a byform of ME Leasnam (talk) 03:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * None of the 15 quotations have rosmarim. --Lambiam 19:20, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The ME entry is for, which has OE listed in its etymology section. Leasnam (talk) 02:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I get it now. The verification is for the Old English word . Hrmmm, okay, lemme search....Leasnam (talk) 02:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I found a quote that uses (a.k.a.) "rosmarim": Ðeós wyrt, ðe man rosmarinum [MS. rosmarim], and óðrum naman boðen, nemneþ, byþ cenned on sandigum landum, granted it seems somewhat, but it could be a word borrowed into OE. Outside of this, I can only find this [] (which is not a quote), which lists . Leasnam (talk) 02:55, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose that here “[MS. rosmarim]” is an editorial annotation stating that the manuscript has rosmarim, which should be read as rosmarinum, the accusative of . If the manuscript is like so many other late-medieval manuscripts, it freely uses s for Latin words, usually indicated with a tilde over the letter preceding an omitted n, like rosmarĩm; the educated reader would know that this abbreviates rosmarinum. I bet that if we had a scan of the ms., this is what will be seen. --Lambiam 23:13, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Here you can see that in an Old English herbarium – possibly the same one as used by Bosworth and Cockayne – a standard formula is used of the form “Ðeos wyrt þe man ⟨Latin name in the accusative⟩ oþrum naman ⟨Anglo-Saxon vernacular name⟩ nemneþ.” So rosmarĩm is Latin, not Old English. --Lambiam 23:36, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What is given as the Old English word for this there, then? Tharthan (talk) 02:32, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It's . Leasnam (talk) 03:35, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Good to know. It's a shame that it wasn't present in Old English (as far as we know), but I'm glad that this was able to be cleared up. Tharthan (talk) 03:46, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

poppyhead
Something tells me that definition 1 and definition 2 are not instances of the same word. Just a feeling that I have. Of course, if the etymology section is incorrect, then perhaps I am wrong. But as it stands, it doesn't make sense. Tharthan (talk) 04:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The architectural sense is relatively new (mid 19th C.). I have added an image of a poppy seedhead.
 * I am also reminded of the Australian(?) reference to tall poppy (ie, the one most likely to get the flower/seedhead lopped off). DCDuring (talk) 11:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

ibhaloni, isikolo
These are said to be borrowed from English, but Afrikaans might be a likelier origin as  doesn't usually seem to be the result of English in other borrowings, where the outcome is typically. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  10:00, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Could you have a look at this? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  12:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * : LBD, I suspect you're right here, but I am not confident — perhaps Smashhoof can help. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:26, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm pretty confident those are from Afrikaans. isikolo is from Afrikaans (as well as Zulu, and Swazi/Phuthi sikolo from the same source). I don't know the Afrikaans word for "balloon", but Dutch does seem to have a mid vowel. Smashhoof (talk) 05:50, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Afrikaans for "balloon" is apparently, with  a mid back vowel. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  07:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

History of motorway
An anon has changed the etymology of motorway: from a calque of German Autobahn to a calque of Italian autostrada. As far as I know, Germany was first with that kind of infrastructure so it's not that farfetched to believe that the original etymology was correct. Are there any sources that can shed some light on the subject? --Robbie SWE (talk) 17:41, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Google Books Ngram Viewer sees some uses in 1854 before the term takes off in the 1930s, when these things are really getting built. GBS also gives some 19th-century hits. I see no strong reason to assume that the term is a calque; it seems to me a straightforward alteration of to identify the kind of carriages for which a highway is designed.  --Lambiam 00:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that any 19th century use (at least as early as 1854) is genuine and not misdatings / scannos. DTLHS (talk) 00:05, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Merriam-Webster has dated its oldest attestation to 1897 and I see you have found a slightly older one, which would make a calque from German or Italian extremely unlikely. Apart from that English motor is hardly a great match for Auto/auto. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  06:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Exactly what evidence is there for calling it a calque at all? I would also like some sources. Not that it's definitive, but the earliest uses are all from the United States. DTLHS (talk) 00:15, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The TLFi says French is a calque from Italian : Before that, that is a borrowing: "Empr. à l'ital. autostrada subst. fém. « id. » mot forgé en 1924 (Panzini, Dizionario moderno delle parole che non si trovano nei dizionari comuni con un'Appendice di ottomila voci nuovamente compilata da B. Migliorini, Milano, 1950 ds Batt. : Autostrada, via unicamente adibita per autoveicoli. Il primo tronco fu inaugurato in Italia nel settembre 1925 : la parola era comparsa nel 1924)" Canonicalization (talk) 08:44, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

archipiélago
According to the Diccionario de la Real Academia Española, the term archipiélago comes from Italian arcipelago, which according to its own entry on Wiktionary, comes from another Greek word, not the one displayed on the archipiélago entry. Can someone confirm any of them? Pablussky (talk) 22:18, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Canonicalization (talk) 22:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

 * I don’t know what the theory that may be an alteration of Ancient Greek  is based on. Le Trésor states that the Italian word is a loan of Byzantine Greek, and that the Byzantine Greek word is a cross of  with the prefix  – at least, according to , Avviamento alla etimologia italiana. If we accept the hypothesis that the Byzantine Greeks used the term  for the Aegean Sea, there is still no reason to see this as some form of contamination; the Greek word literally means “main sea”, so it may have been a sum-of-parts designation for the sea that is indeed, from the Greek point of view, the main sea.  --Lambiam 00:35, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Linde
Any particular reason why the Proto-Germanic "d" is still present in the modern German word? Tharthan (talk) 03:58, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It could be influence from Low German, the modern German Low German word is Linde. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  07:07, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It's a sporadic sound change dating to Middle German, google "Mittelhochdeutsch Lenisirung". Crom daba (talk) 13:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

slug (the verb)
Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary and the Online Etymology Dictionary (at the very least) consider the verb to be of different derivation than the creature.

Ought we to consider including this? Tharthan (talk) 07:46, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

 * It also seems unlikely to me that all the noun senses have one and the same etymology. --Lambiam 08:30, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * suggests the development of the main senses or both parts of speech from the same source. DCDuring (talk) 16:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That is not what I read there. --Lambiam 22:28, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Post in haste, take it back at leisure: you're right. DCDuring (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

euchre
Is this ultimately a derivative of German jucken, through Juckerspiel (which is held to be the game's ancestor)? Or have we all been euchred out of an explanation? Tharthan (talk) 08:19, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Apparently, the etymology of the Jucker component of Juckerspiel is unclear. No plausible relationship to the German verb has been proposed. The Wikipedia article  states that “it is believed” that the name of the  playing card comes from Jucker – an etymology not referenced in our entry.  --Lambiam 08:25, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

etymology of husting(s)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husting

nvg Boudewijn van der Drift

 * Is that a question? Or a statement? --Lambiam 08:05, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * We have the etymology at husting, but not at the other lemma entry at hustings. DCDuring (talk) 15:58, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

RFV: omphacomel
From and. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:47, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this comes by straightforward borrowings via from, from . References: , .  --Lambiam 10:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Done. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 08:22, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

lunkhead
Was the diminutive mentioned (-ke) also productive in English? Probably from *lunk (< *lumpke), a diminutive of lump + head. --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably not, unless obscurely in some English dialect. It features in a few words of Dutch or Flemish origin (cf. ); however English might possibly indicate the suffix's use in English. The pairs hump - hunk, lump - lunk, chump - chunk (and even assibilated variants like hunch, lunch, -) suggest that the -k and -ch in these words may be relics of a former suffix, likely Middle English -ken, -chen. The words are so familiar in nature that it's likely they didn't get recorded until long after they had degraded into their present forms, leaving scant to no record of their development or relation to one another (if any such relation actually even exists) Leasnam (talk) 19:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * comes from earlier, which survives dialectically (as in ). The English suffix for forming diminutives possibly goes back on (Middle) Dutch -ken; it was somewhat productive. There is a German diminutive  from , meaning “little cad” – not so much questioning someone’s intelligence, but rather their character.  --Lambiam 00:05, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Century says this at their etymology of : "A var. of lump, as bunch of bump and hunch of hump". Goodness gracious me, man, just whose character are you questioning ? Leasnam (talk) 01:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh I-get-it, I-get-it, you're referring to the hypothesised mention of -ke in the etymology at . No, that's not a character issue. Nor is it an intelligence issue. I actually believe that this is one possibility (and it makes reasonable sense to me) of how this word may have become altered from lump, based on analogy with and, which does have a slightly better written record, but still even that's only hypothetical. I've re-worded the etymology so that it doesn't create a fictitious suffix. Yeah, that was a wrong call :| Leasnam (talk) 02:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of rat
The etymology at has at the very end: This requires a Proto-Indo-European etymon in final *t, and is hence incompatible with the usual derivation from Proto-Indo-European *reh₁d- (“to scrape”). Is this a true statement ? Isn't there one theory that postulates that PIE -dn- can become -tt- in Germanic in certain situations (cf. < ;  <, etc.) ? If this is the case, would not PIE *roh₁dnós become *rattaz ? NM, I believe this statement (above) only pertains to Kroonen's account of a *raþō - *ruttaz alternation. However, should we still show that *rattaz, *rattō likely descends from ? Leasnam (talk) 04:35, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I've re-added it, since we show the Gmc word at the PIE entry. Leasnam (talk) 04:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

sbrodolare
The etymology has:, but where does the l in sbrodolare come from ? Leasnam (talk) 17:18, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Note that exists next to . There are several verbs that have, next to the expected versions on -are, also a variant on -olare, such as  next to, and  next to . In the last case there coexists a variant  next to , so one may analyze arricciolare as a- + ricciolo + -are – although it is conceivable that the noun ricciolo is a back-formation from the verb. There is also a rare noun , meaning “shaft”, seen e.g. here as a translation of . But there is no noun , although I see the word used here as an adjective, apparently meaning (metaphorically) “soupy”. Purely speculatively, it seems possible to me that an epenthetic l was inserted as being more euphonic, influenced by the many verbs that happen to end in -olare.  --Lambiam 17:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Ancient Greek μικρός
Wouldn't this be better explained as a substrate word because of the variants (smikros, mikkos) and that PIE sm- became m- in Greek?

I am not aware of any parallel sound change to mikros > mikkos in the Greek dialects.

RubixLang (talk) 20:19, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

 * Beekes (Pre-Greek) states: “The variations σμ- / μ- and κκ- / κ- point to Pre-Greek origin”. The online Greek-English etymological dictionary, quoting various authors, presents a mixed case: the variant is called “clearly older”; on the other hand, the ρ is explained as arising by analogy with . It seems there is no consensus; the PIE hypothesis can neither be conclusively embraced nor rejected.  --Lambiam 14:06, 3 July 2019 (:UTC)
 * There's, which would be a perfect cognate only if it wasn't for Grimm's law, whose existence we oddly ignore ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:09, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The PIE root for *smikraz is *smēyg-, from *smēy-, so this seems okay. If the Greek word is related, it must be at the *smēy- node. Leasnam (talk) 20:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)