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Module talk:grc-pronunciation/Archive 1

Identical pronunciations
Sometimes the module outputs the same pronunciation twice in a row, like on ὄργανον. In this case, it should only output it once. 11:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

 * I fail to see why. This indicates that the word retained the same pronunciation for a period of time.  I can't fathom what indelible harm is caused by this.  -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:38, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * And I fail to see why showing the same pronunciation twice is somehow useful. If I didn't understand it, do you think any other users will? 19:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Well, the clarification is in the expand. I remain steadfast in my opinion that it should stay.  -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:43, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Expand? 12:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Yeah, there's a "more" button on the right. It expands the three inline pronunciations to five pronunciations with stated periods.  -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't even see that button. 17:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

 * There is definitely room for improvement on the placement, but it hasn't struck me yet. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:26, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Long vowel with acute?
How do I get it to do an orthographically ambiguous but phonetically long vowel with an acute accent? At ἐάν I can't figure out how to get to understand that the alpha is long. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Velar nasal and other issues
(I'm just pinging anyone who's worked on this since Atelaes doesn't seem to be around) We have all this information concerning pronunciation, yet a lot is missing from this template. Most notably, the velar nasal in words like ἄγκος does not show up. ObsequiousNewt has suggested this be the standard template from now on, but we can't use it if it has such glaring flaws. — JohnC5 00:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll try and fix it. Can you find anything else that's wrong?ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 20:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The velar nasal is not a phoneme in Ancient Greek, it's an allophone of /n/. So we should show /ng/ and not /ŋg/. —CodeCat 20:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that clarification! What would be the phonemic over phonetic approach for the compensatory lengthening of caused by nasal deletion before fricatives in Byzantine and sometimes Classical Greek (-γχ-, -μφ-, -νθ-, -νσ-? — JohnC5 21:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * While the vowel was merely nasalised, it was not phonemic. But when the nasalisation was lost, then this would have caused a change in the phonemic structure of words. I'd need a bit more information before I could tell for sure though. For instance, what happened to a sequence like εγχ? was the result eventually just εχ, or did it become ηχ? —CodeCat 21:20, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, why are we showing phonemic pronunciation and not phonetic pronunciation? (Also, it seems evident that /N/ is supposed to be there, but isn't working for some reason.) ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 14:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems like the most comely solution would be to have the phonemic in the un-expanded form and both the phonetic and phonemic in the expanded form. — JohnC5 17:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * This edit seems to point out another issue with the module; would one of you be able to fix σθ? Thanks! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can fix it. Do you have a citation for the sound change? If not I can probably find one. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 15:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Contemporary pronunciation
I don’t know much about the Greek language, but would it be possible and useful to add the modern (20th/21st-century) pronunciation or is the sound change not systematic enough? Crissov (talk) 16:04, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This page is only for the pronunciation of Ancient Greek words, not Modern Greek words. Or do you mean how modern Greek people pronounce Ancient Greek when they're reading it? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

 * I think Modern Greek pronunciation is unpredictable in some ways, like whether certain letters and digraphs represent or, and there isn't a thoroughly worked out analysis of MG phonology yet, so it would be difficult or impossible to make the pronunciation automatically generate as the Ancient Greek pronunciations do. — Eru·tuon 17:47, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

/s/ voicing assimilation
The module currently transcribes Attic as,  as , and  as , as in , ,. This is incorrect, I think; they should be. is not a separate phoneme in Attic Greek, but an allophone of the coronal sibilant through anticipatory voicing assimilation. should only be shown in the phonetic transcription, when it is added.

became a phoneme when (or more likely ) simplified to  in Koine, so  is correct for that stage of the language. — Eru·tuon 21:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Layout change
, while I like the idea the idea of having the more button not on the far right, your change seems to have messed up pages like Ἀριστοφάνης. — JohnC5 05:11, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * : Oh, I see that. Bizarre. The POS header has vanished, even though it's there in the HTML. I'm not sure what's going on, so I'll just revert my change for now. — Eru·tuon 06:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I dunno. I really would like if we could get a better solution. Perhaps we could ask someone in the WT:GP? — JohnC5 14:07, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I posted there, after putting my code in MOD:grc-pronunciation/sandbox, and asked if anyone had an idea what was going on, or an alternative solution. — Eru·tuon 16:36, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I came up with the solution of counting the characters in the inline transcriptions and making the  element containing the "more" button be a certain number of   times that. It's funny, but the only way I can think to do it without a function for measuring the width of the characters in the font that the browser is currently using (which is probably impossible). So it looks better now at least. — Eru·tuon 23:48, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have to set a fixed width? Letting the browser layout figure it out is generally better. —CodeCat 00:05, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The problem is, the browser puts the "more" button to be on the far right side of the content area. This has been criticized multiple times in the past. It makes it hard to find. If you can figure out a better solution, I'd be delighted, but until then a crappy one is better than nothing. — Eru·tuon 00:10, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * divs expand to fill all available space, by default. Putting  may help. —CodeCat 02:51, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Diphthongs
The Attic diphthongs are inconsistent right now. Long diphthongs use a tie and a semivowel symbol – for instance, : – while short diphthongs use a tie – :. I propose that both use a non-syllabic diacritic, as shown in the table to the right. A tie bar is nonstandard, I think.

I tried to implement this myself, and I got the module to produce the right symbols, but the syllabification broke and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. — Eru·tuon 03:40, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer the nonsyllabic diacritic with no tie bar, too. I don't know how to change it without breaking the module, though. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I alpha-iota subscript be transcribed with, but currently the syllabification puts a syllable break between the  and the. I don't understand the syllabification function yet. I'll continue looking at it, but if you have an idea of how to fix it, JohnC5, I would be glad for your help. — Eru·tuon 07:36, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You beat me to the punch with . I was about to do the same thing. — JohnC5 08:01, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I still don't really understand what cVowel and nVowel are, or why my edit worked. ^_^ — Eru·tuon 08:03, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * is the position of the end of the current vowel (cluster) and  is the beginning of the next vowel (cluster). Then the function finds , the final character of the syllable, then lops off characters   before repeating until there are no characters left. — JohnC5 08:10, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Should we actually implement a phonemic-phonetic distinction based on Ancient Greek phonology? It wouldn't be too bad. Also, would be,  and , ,  or something different? Moreover, it seems that graves should not be transcribed at all. Is that correct? — JohnC5 21:29, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The acute would have rising tone, and the circumflex falling, so the transcriptions sould be reversed. The grave is a thorny issue, but my personal theory is that on di- or trisyllabic words content words, it represented high pitch, while on monosyllabic words (and maybe some disyllabic words), it represented lack of high pitch (that is, enclisis or proclisis). Probably monosyllabic function words that are written with circumflex were actually unaccented too. — Eru·tuon 21:42, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I got those accents exactly backwards by mistake. Sorry about that. But you haven't answered the questions: Where do the accents go on trimoraic vowels? Should we provide phonemic or phonetic transcriptions or both (but not the odd mix we're giving now)? — JohnC5 02:56, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess I would just simplify and use rising and falling accents on all long monophthongs and diphthongs. Probably we should have phonemic and phonetic transcriptions. They are already needed because the voicing of in Attic that is shown in the transcriptions now is actually phonetic.
 * I was hesitant to respond for two reasons. I'm uncertain now about the form the phonemic accent markings should take, and I dislike using two vowels in the cases of eta and omega, since the short vowel phonemes don't exist. However, high pitch on the first or second element of the diphthong would be the typical analysis, and perhaps it's fine to have a doubled vowel when no short vowel exists.
 * So anyway, your proposed phonemic and phonetic transcriptions look fine, except I would add a falling pitch mark on a long vowel that follows an acute: for instance,,  . — Eru·tuon 03:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Did you mean to give those as phonemic or phonetic? I think while going from phonemic to phonetic would be fairly simple (Think a few regex's could do it), adding a falling tone after an acute would be perhaps more complex. And would this post-tonic falling tone be phonemic or phonetic? — JohnC5 03:37, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oops, they should be phonetic. Corrected. — Eru·tuon 03:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This also opens a Pandora's box of what's phonemic vs. phonetic. My idea would be to just generate the phonemic representation with current system, then generate the phonetic by regex. I'm also going to set up diphthong parsing soon and then simplify the conversion function. What do you think? — JohnC5 03:43, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that should work. I'm not sure if the falling tone is phonemic or not. It's probably the location of stress, though. — Eru·tuon 03:55, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I've finished with my current set of alterations to the module. Now, the code uses the data module for all conversions (macrons and breves vowels now have an entry as something like  and every diphthong combination that we currently recognized has an entry). Could you check over the examples to ensure they are all rendering correctly? Now, however, the vowel ambiguity notes are not created. Could I ask you to write a regex to catch the ambiguous vowels? Also, any cleanup you can make is much appreciated! Once that's done, we can consider splitting stuff into phonemic vs. phonetic. — JohnC5 06:42, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * All the examples look good now! I'm pleased. I'll look into a way to check for ambiguous vowels. Ideally it would take accent into account: for instance, penultimate accent on, or the circumflex on , that indicate the final alpha is short. But that might be hard to implement. The simplest would be to check for a macron, breve, or circumflex on the vowel in question. — Eru·tuon 07:05, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I was imagining something like , but this isn't quite right. — JohnC5 07:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I created a complicated function, but it is resulting in false positives since the macrons and breves are spacing characters. Figuring out a way around that now. — Eru·tuon 07:47, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, I went the regex way, but without listing all the characters. Very pleased with the result. — Eru·tuon 08:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, have to take into account diphthongs. — Eru·tuon 08:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Note to self: Tomorrow, I'll also need to rewrite the  function handle multi-word inputs better. — JohnC5 08:34, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * So any idea what's causing the current error? — JohnC5 19:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I'm mystified. The  function works fine in Module:grc-translit, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in the pronunciation sandbox module. There must be something I'm overlooking. — Eru·tuon 19:41, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, bleh. I finally realized the problem.  is , so   and   don't work. So yay! Now it's fixed! — Eru·tuon 20:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Each token in the tokens table contains consonants, monophthongs, or diphthongs plus their diacritics. So I can just search for an ambiguous vowel without any of the diacritics that mark it as long or short. — Eru·tuon 20:25, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

So are you fine with me going ahead with the following phonetic-phonemic relationship? — JohnC5 03:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. I'm not happy with the transcriptions of the grave accent, but that can easily be changed and otherwise it looks fine. — Eru·tuon 03:45, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Nor am I, but then again, I wouldn't put any accent for the grave at all. What representation would you use instead? — JohnC5 03:48, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I would put a high pitch, if it's a content word, or no accent, if it's a short enclitic or proclitic, like . (Same for circumflex-accented articles like .) I suppose it would be easiest for graves to be transcribed as high pitch by default, and then to manually enter unaccented forms into the template in entries where appropriate. — Eru·tuon 03:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , do any of you have opinions on this matter? — JohnC5 04:30, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I dislike using a tie bar for diphthongs and long vowels, and I dislike having the tone mark over the nonsyllabic part of the diphthong. I don't have an opinion on the best way of indicating grave accent, but of course it won't come up very often in dictionary entries anyway. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * To clarify, the tie bar would not be used for long vowels and not diphthongs. It's meant to represent the bimoraic character of the long vowels and that, as Erutuon points out, does not exist properly outside of this formation. As for the accent, would you prefer it always above the vowel? — JohnC5 15:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, the accent should go above the vowel; and long vowels can be indicated with the long mark, as in the transcriptions above inside brackets instead of slashes. If we can use, we can use . —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That is not phonemically correct. They are not underlyingly rising or falling tones, they are bimoraic vowels with the accent on one of the morae, which is realized phonetically as a rising or falling tone. — JohnC5 16:58, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a distinction without a difference. But even /ɔɔ́/ would be preferable to /ɔ͜ɔ́/, since the tie bar is supposed to represent coarticulation, and it makes no sense to use it with two copies of the same sound. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The primary purpose of the tie is to simplify the syllabification process, but I guess we could use the tie internally then remove it after the fact. Maybe we'll just scrap this moraic notation. I certainly would like to supply other phonetic distinctions where possible (like Classical to  / _[+voiced]}). Are there any other phonetic features we are missing? Specifically, what of Ancient Greek transliteration should we add or move from phonemic to phonetic? — JohnC5 19:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * One thing is that the palatals should be moved to phonetic. Since they occur in complementary distribution with the velars under our system, it makes no sense to consider them separate phonemes. — Eru·tuon 02:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Yes. We've had it for a long while, but I don't like the tied symbol for long vowels. There is a perception that Greek vowels were moraïc, but it's not a good perception. First and most prominently, the actual length of Greek long vowels was less than twice the length of short vowels (or at least, so I think, but I can't remember where I read this); secondly, there is no "monomoraïc" /ɛ/ or /ɔ/ (or, after a certain point, dimoraic /e/ or /o/); thirdly, while tones do tend to combine moraïcally when vowels are contracted, this is really just a side effect of existing rules, and any sensible analysis of Greek tones would put them at the word-level rather than the mora-level—and fourth, counting tones by mora doesn't really make any sense either, since tones can fall on any of the last four mora of a word. I would advocate just using the simple system of representing ε έ ει εί εῖ as /e é eː ěː êː/ (regarding the grave, I'm not sure I see enough evidence to say it marked a higher than normal tone, and anyway it is almost never going to come up in entries.) I also would point out that, while τοῦ etc. may have been unstressed in casual speech, we are (or should be) giving phonemic-level pronunciations here, so it should be represented as /tôː/. In fact, I believe that we should not speculate on phonetic-level pronunciations at all. — ObſequiousNewt — Geſpꝛaͤch — Beÿtraͤge 01:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * There are many phonetic or possibly phonetic processes that are not mere speculation: devoicing of r at the beginning of a word, voicing of s, gemination of the last element of diphthongs before a vowel, nasalization of g before m, assimilation of final n to a following consonant, phonation assimilation of stops in clusters. Why would we exclude these? — Eru·tuon 02:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not familiar with the evidence for destressing τοῦ, so if you could provide it that would be appreciated. I also would contend that the /ŋm/ hypothesis is speculation, and should not be written. — ObſequiousNewt — Geſpꝛaͤch — Beÿtraͤge 03:59, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I would mention that Philomen Probert in A Companion to the Ancient Greek Language does support → . — JohnC5 04:52, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I read the thing about circumflexed articles being unaccented in The Prosody of Greek Speech by Devine and Stephens. I unfortunately don't own the book and it's been a while since I tried to read it, so I can't say specifically what the reasoning was. (I didn't understand the parts concerned with metrical analysis of Ancient Greek poetry.) I will post more when my keybord stops not typing the first letter of the lphbet. — Eru·tuon 05:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Words only attested in Koine or Medieval Greek
I just happened upon the word. As can be inferred from its meaning, it was coined in the Koine Greek period, and it is anachronistic to show the Attic and Egyptian pronunciations. The template could use a parameter to hide these pronunciations. I'm not sure how this should work, though. — Eru·tuon 21:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Syllabification error

 * The syllabification in the Egyptian pronunciation of  is wrong. Could someone fix it? — JohnC5 06:05, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That's more than my ability to fix at the moment. I don't understand the core of the module very well. — Eru·tuon 19:25, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll check it out then. — JohnC5 19:59, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

In case you were curious about the distinction between loadData and require: mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual. — JohnC5 04:40, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been looking at that, but so far I can't figure out what capability  lacks that we require in the module. — Eru·tuon 04:43, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe it is the for loop in the  function. If it were converted to , it might work. — JohnC5 04:57, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, there it is. It tried to use  on a variable that is sometimes an element in the data tables. 04:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I converted it to, because all the keys are numbers rather than strings. And now   works! Thanks for figuring it out! — Eru·tuon 05:07, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm finally starting to get how this module works. Do you need the sandbox at all? I'm gonna try to factor out a few more things. — JohnC5 05:10, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I was just thinking of moving some functions around, but that's not very important, so you can use the sandbox module if you've got something more substantial to do. — Eru·tuon 05:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to extract all the functions defined internally. This should give better clarity on what variables each function actually uses. It shouldn't take too long, and I'll tell you when it's done. — JohnC5 05:21, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My attempt failed. Do what you were going to do. — JohnC5 05:32, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The frustrating thing now is that the module errors don't tell where in the module  is being given a bad argument. — Eru·tuon 06:00, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, these parsing functions are the worst. — JohnC5 06:07, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Module:UnitTests might give more information, but I'm not sure how we would use it in a module with such complex output. — Eru·tuon 06:24, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * With, I fixed the sandbox. :P — JohnC5 06:42, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

What! How did I miss that? — Eru·tuon 06:43, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I missed it as well, so you're good. — JohnC5 06:46, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Decomposition
I can't help wondering if the module would be simpler with decomposition. Then there wouldn't need to be the tables with ; you could just search for the diacritic. Or there could be a function that decomposes the current letter and returns true if it has the diacritic you're asking for. — Eru·tuon 07:25, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That could work well. I, on the other hand, was wondering whether it would be easier to just do a straight mapping from letters to a base form and then uses regex's to apply all the phonological rules. That would be much easier to maintain and much more obvious what was going on. — JohnC5 07:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I tried to use regex to determine if a sound belongs to a category, but it seems to cause scripts to time out. What on earth? — Eru·tuon 08:28, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, find is faster I guess. — Eru·tuon 08:32, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting question. Table lookups are far more efficient (hash tables so $$\approx O(1)$$), whereas the find function is $$\approx O(n)$$). The cost of hashing the tables upfront is the expensive part, but I'm not sure how expensive. — JohnC5 08:37, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

should produce. I think something in the accent decomposition is removing the iota. — JohnC5 00:53, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oops yes, that was my fault. I added subscript to the list of all diacritics but not to the diacritic ordering part of the functions. It should show up again now. — Eru·tuon 01:09, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you sir. — JohnC5 01:17, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you happen to know if the iota subscript is supposed to be placed at a particular place in the sequence of diacritics? I put it last, but maybe that's wrong... — Eru·tuon 01:27, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems to be working at the moment, so...I guess at the end is correct? — JohnC5 01:35, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The end makes sense, since is an alternative spelling of, in other words iotas subscript aren't always written subscript. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:19, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

κδ, ρρ
I think the reason why these clusters aren't decoding properly is that the function  refers to itself, before it is defined. We should probably break up that function. — Eru·tuon 09:40, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Then again, recursion seems to work with another function,, so maybe I am wrong. — Eru·tuon 09:46, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I fixed it, but I'm a bit unclear about the reason why the other way doesn't work. — JohnC5 16:57, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It seems to be due to the  after the  . It must mess with the assignment of the variables somehow. — Eru·tuon 21:11, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Consonant clusters between syllables
Our method of dividing syllables needs some tweaking. In particular, should probably be  rather than, because its first syllable is heavy in Homer. The voiced stop–liquid clusters are the tricky ones: sometimes they're split between syllables, making the previous syllable heavy, sometimes they're not. I don't remember the details on that.

How do I change the syllabification of and its compatriots? The  list in Module:grc-pronunciation/sandbox/data doesn't seem to affect it. — Eru·tuon 04:28, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The "clusters" functionality currently has no usage in the code. My issue here is that the poetic scansion doesn't necessarily represent actual syllabification (Latin's scansion rules certainly has many exceptions to the phonology to make it work). AG poetry even changes the length of vowels when necessary! — JohnC5 04:49, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, some clusters are capricious in connection to syllable weight, but others are definitely divided one way and not the other. For instance, is definitely divided  between vowels. I don't remember which of the voiced stop–sonorant or voiceless stop–sonorant was the capricious one. I suppose scansion is removed more or less from actual pronunciation, but it is based on the phonological patterns of the language, and has been used as evidence for vowel length and syllable division. — Eru·tuon 23:41, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Selecting periods to transcribe
Some words began to be used after the Classical period. For those, we need to have a way to prevent earlier periods from being transcribed. I've added an example,, to Module:grc-pronunciation/sandbox/documentation, with the parameter koi2. Not sure how to make the module recognize it, though. , can you help? — Eru·tuon 17:38, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * This should not be very difficult. I'll work on this later tonight. — JohnC5 17:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Invalid characters
Some pages are producing invalid IPA characters: ὀρίνειν, ὀρίνειν, ὀνομαστή. DTLHS (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Whoops, just realized that these entries don't use the module- sorry. DTLHS (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Many issues would be solve by our switching all the instances of to . Indeed, the old template gives the wrong syllable count as well, as seen in . If  could get is bot to convert all the instances of the old template to the new one, that would be much appreciated. We can set up mod:grc-pronunciation to fill a category with entries that have ambiguous vowels. Also, I'm wondering how 's investigation into AG phonology is coming. — JohnC5 19:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I've done the extremely easy ones, but I think 80% of the transclusions which remain are only moderately easy to fix, meaning there are about a dozen groups which each may take a couple of hours of testing to replace accurately. When I return more actively in the next week or two, I have a few other templates and modules on my to-do list, but I'll prioritise this just after the very important items.  I'll probably post a new to-do list to remind myself what I'm working on.  Thanks for bringing this again to my attention; hope you've all been well!  Isomorphyc (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Moving this into production

 * Can we move this into production? Also, can we add a category to mark anything that has an ambiguous vowel? — JohnC5 19:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think there are issues with nasal-stop sequences brought up by that should be resolved. Sure, we could add a category. I was thinking of making the headword templates do that, but so far haven't made that happen. (It might be easiest to do it with Module:grc-headword, which isn't functional yet. There are other things that a headword module could do to make generating headwords simpler for editors.) In any case, we should track ambiguous vowels in the various templates separately, since sometimes macrons or breves are marked in one but not another. We just need to come up with category names.
 * It might be useful to have a function that would add length marks based on the accent rules: so that, for instance, μοῖρα and χώρα would be changed to μοῖρᾰ and χώρᾱ before generating the IPA and checking for ambiguous vowels. That might cause problems with oddly accented words, though. — Eru·tuon 21:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, an idea: a general category for templates containing vowels of ambiguous length, with subpages for each template. (There could also be subpages for individual vowels, but that wouldn't strictly be useful; it would be interesting, though, to see which vowel is most frequently ambiguous.)
 * If the idea of using the accent rules were implemented, then there could be separate categories for ambiguous vowels and ambiguous vowels whose length cannot be inferred using the accent rules. — Eru·tuon 21:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Using the accent rules would be cool. If you want, I can work on Mod:grc-headword for you. I've done a few of these guys already. — JohnC5 21:54, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought there was some debate about this nasal-stop business, which is why we didn't do it initially. — JohnC5 21:56, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * After further thought, I have no objection to the new code being moved to the main module. There are a bunch of issues I'd love to see resolved, but there's no reason that has to be done now and not later. — Eru·tuon 20:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * A question that bothers me is whether diphthongs before a vowel – as in, , – are not really a vowel plus doubled semivowel (since their origin often suggests they were originally doubled semivowels), and whether diphthongs themselves do not include a semivowel phoneme. Other thorny questions relate to the pitch accent: what part of the pitch accent is actually phonemic, and to what degree are the written pitch accents (their type and position) really accurate for Classical Attic, rather than early Koine Greek, at the time when the pitch accent symbols were invented. It is, at the very least, clearly anachronistic to project the written Koine-era accents back onto fifth-century Attic; to what degree anachronistic is the question (perhaps ultimately insoluble). And I would also like to see a phonetic transcription added, at the very least to show voicing of  before a voiced consonant. All these issues are somewhat difficult, and since they do not impact the functioning of our sandbox code, I would simply go ahead with implementing sandbox code for now. — Eru·tuon 00:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Shall we then. I'd mention that we should keep the cleanup categories. — JohnC5 03:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I went ahead and copied the sandbox code into the main module. There shouldn't be any module errors. But the cleanup categories have to be re-added. — Eru·tuon 20:00, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there anything different about using grc-IPA? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, there are no differences in the usage of the template, now that its module code has changed. However, the preview-only message about ambiguous vowels is different. — Eru·tuon 20:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The only new external feature is that you can specify the period at which you would like it to start. See for an example. Everything else is internal. — JohnC5 20:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a cool feature. Could you edit Template:grc-IPA/documentation to reflect this, and list the abbreviations required for each period? And I see that vowel quantity marks are no longer required as of Egyptian Koine, since vowel length distinctions had been lost by then. That's good! It's very frustrating trying to clear out CAT:Ancient Greek terms with incomplete pronunciation when it's full of Koine words that never appeared in poetry. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've added a description of the parameters to the template documentation page. — Eru·tuon 20:52, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * :  is causing module errors at ἀρχιμανδρίτης and ἁρματοδρομία. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Odd that there were no module errors in the sandbox module. Fixed. — Eru·tuon 16:34, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup category

 * The module already makes the template show an error message (in edit mode) when α, ι, or υ isn't marked as long or short. Would it be possible for it also to put the word into a (hidden) cleanup category, say CAT:Ancient Greek terms with incomplete pronunciation? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:50, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * We were discussing this in the preceding conversation. It is certainly an forthcoming feature. I'm waiting on a phonological survey from before progressing too far, but I can add this category now, I think. It may become more elaborate in the future. — JohnC5 23:25, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I've created the cleanup category, but remember that anything using will not be included. — JohnC5 23:44, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * that's fine: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:grc-ipa-rows itself functions as a cleanup category. ObNewt hasn't been around in over two months, so I wouldn't wait on him for anything. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know both of those things, but hope springs eternal in the human breast. Also, is hesitant to put the new code into production. — JohnC5 16:22, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It isn't already? It's certainly widely used, and I already regularly replace grc-ipa-rows with grc-IPA wherever I encounter it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, let me clarify: the “new code” is Erutuon and my massive refactoring found in Module:grc-pronunciation/sandbox. It is more phonologically accurate and full-functioned as well as more maintainable and efficient. You should continue to replace grc-ipa-rows with grc-IPA. I was trying to get someone to do it with a bot, but CodeCat won't help unless we remove the collapsing functionality (of which I could be convinced, mind you). — JohnC5 18:15, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

I've pretty much cleaned out Category:Ancient Greek terms with incomplete pronunciation. I was hoping y'all could take a look at the remaining members and make a decision. Where there is no way of knowing, I have been choosing short then leaving a note in markup. — JohnC5 04:38, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help. I had been using Osthoff as a heuristic as well. Anyway, what's next? Should we make a concerted effort to get a bot to convert grc-ipa-rows to grc-IPA? I know he's not on very often, but would be very helpful in this respect. — JohnC5 15:40, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Palatalized gamma error
At, for example, the 10th- and 15th-century pronunciations are given as with a voiced palatal stop. Shouldn't that be with a voiced palatal fricative? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should. The condition was correctly programmed in Module:grc-pronunciation/data (lua), but it was being misapplied by the function. (It was looking for a letter at position 0 in the word, and getting instead the letter at position 1: hence, the function thought the gamma was preceded by another gamma and gave it its pre-gamma pronunciation.) — Eru·tuon 16:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Syllable after a circumflex
Could the module be made clever enough to know that α, ι, υ in a syllable after a circumflex must be short, and thus no longer requires explicit marking as such? CAT:Ancient Greek terms with incomplete pronunciation would probably be a lot smaller if unambiguous forms like βοῶπις weren't in it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Ypsilon diphthongs
, can figure out why the in  is not getting picked up as a diphthong? — JohnC5 01:02, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Strange. is also going crazy. I'll take a look at it. — Eru·tuon 01:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'd not seen that. This makes me think it is almost certainly the tokenization going wrong. — JohnC5 01:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Strangely, it's not: I just added two examples to and they're fine. — Eru·tuon 01:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the tokenization isn't used in operation of the pronunciation module outside of the ambiguous vowel finding, right? — JohnC5 01:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think it is. The relevant thing here is the  list in Module:grc-pronunciation/data. I'm puzzled why it isn't working (there's an upsilon there). — Eru·tuon 01:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the  doesn't seem to be used at all. Huh. — Eru·tuon 02:05, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * What makes you say that or in what sense? — JohnC5 02:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I searched both the main module and the data module, and couldn't find anywhere where the  thing was used. For instance,   doesn't use it. Or else my brain is overheating and malfunctioning. — Eru·tuon 02:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, you mean the thing at the veeeery bottom? Yeah, I think we don't use that. In any case, I fixed it with . This issue was that, which uniquely among vowels may be both the first and second member of a diphthong, was having its  function overwritten. So, we've not been parsing the  diphthong correctly for a  while now. My bad. Also, is the representation given in Ancient_Greek_transliteration really correct for this diphthong? That seems very weird to me. — JohnC5 02:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Which part of it? It being a long vowel? I'm not sure if that is accurate or not, but I don't remember exactly what Allen says about this diphthong. — Eru·tuon 02:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Allen seems to agreee. — JohnC5 02:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Nasals in consonant clusters

 * See also

Currently, the nasals in consonant clusters are not handled correctly, as they were in the old template (see the documentation of the old template for detailed explanations; also there were some deficiencies in the old template as well). The two clusters μβ and νδ are currently partially handled but still not entirely correctly, the others are not handled at all. --WikiTiki89 20:17, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Does anyone want to comment on this? --WikiTiki89 15:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Not me; I don't know what the correct treatment is after the 5th century BC. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:47, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * commented on a related topic in . I don't know much about this either. I know the endpoint in Modern Greek, but not all that much about what happened between then and Koine. — Eru·tuon 16:29, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Other than certain minor inconsistencies, shouldn't we have just assumed the old template was correct? --WikiTiki89 17:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is about nasalization of vowels, right? — JohnC5 17:25, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The nasalization or non-nasalization the preceding vowel, the dropping or non-dropping of the nasal itself, and the realization of the following consonant are all part of this. --WikiTiki89 17:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, we certainly can implement that... — JohnC5 17:38, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Here's a list of all the cases (at least that I've thought of; they're all made-up words):

 * --WikiTiki89 17:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you provide what they should look like, somehow? — JohnC5 18:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know the details myself. The old template's documentation talks about it in detail, but I'm not sure whether it's 100% accurate about everything. Here are the same examples above entered the way I think they should be in the old template:

 * --WikiTiki89 18:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you remind me of the sources for all the claims in Template:grc-ipa-rows/documentation? — JohnC5 21:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I remembered that mentioned in this discussion that the nasalization of the vowel is not phonemic, which is true. Unless we split the phonemic representation into phonemic and phonetic, then we should not show the nasalization. Showing the nasalization as phonemic is actively false. — JohnC5 02:29, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Is 15th-century Constantinopolitan that different from Modern Greek in terms of nasal clusters? It seems surprising and unlikely to me that intervocalic νδ would be either /d/ after an oral vowel (new template) or /d/ after a nasal vowel (old template) when AFAIK it's /nð/ in Modern Greek, isn't it? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this comment. The question remains: what are the sources for Ancient Greek transliteration and Template:grc-ipa-rows/documentation (which differ on the trestment of nd)? Also, as Sihler points out in §228, the absolute prohibition on ns only seems to be in Attic Greek. — JohnC5 13:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Whenever *ns became long vowel + s in Attic, it was reflected in the spelling. It's not as if Attic authors wrote "φέρονσι" and "πάνσα" but pronounced them "φέρουσι" and "πᾶσα". And in §228.2a, Sihler points out that the prohibition on ns wasn't absolute, as late formations like keep the ns even in Attic. So we definitely should not be telling the module (as the old template does) to treat written ονσος as if it were ουσος for 5th c. Attic. As for the sources, I don't know. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * So that leaves the questions about the later dialects, for which I again would like sources. any help on this would be spectacular. Otherwise, I think we should continue the conversion of templates. — JohnC5 16:58, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't have sources. I barely know anything about Greek, I just started learning it a few months ago. But it does seem like we are missing some crucial information and until we find sources, it would be misleading to continue with the template conversion. Even if the old template was simply wrong, which I doubt, we should find sources to back that up. Otherwise we should disable all our post-Koine pronunciations. --WikiTiki89 03:41, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * So I think I've found the source of all this. Horrocks 2010 (§11.2.5) says:
 * The deletion of nasals before fricatives, a process already in place in classical Greek before [s] and [z] (cf. σύ-στημα ‘system’, < *σύν-στημα ), was given greater scope with the shift of the voiceless aspirated plosives to fricatives. Voiced plosives, however, which in general also became fricatives, were retained after nasals in popular Greek (cf. 6.4 (19)), as sometimes reflected subsequently in the orthography, e.g. ἄντρας  for original ἄνδρας ‘man’. Thus the renewed onset of nasal deletion was effectively restricted to the context of a following voiceless fricative: e.g. νύφη  ‘bride’, < νύμφη, etc.
 * This says nothing about nasalization of the vowel, which again would be a phonetic difference, if extant. The scope is limited to deletion before voiceless fricatives without lengthening or nasalization. — JohnC5 05:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure why nasalization can't have been phonemic. Old Norse briefly had nasalized vowels after the loss or assimilation of nasals in certain environments (for instance, in and  according to this blog post), and at least some of them were phonemic before they merged with oral vowels in most North Germanic dialects. The same could have been true in Koine or Medieval Greek. But whether we have evidence for this, I don't know. — Eru·tuon 06:02, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I think /nð/ was reintroduced in modern Greek by influence of the spelling. If you look at common words, their spelling has changed to accomodate the /(n)d/ pronunciation; e.g., . Similar case for other nasal clusters; e.g. . --WikiTiki89 03:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

sorry to bother. We are approaching the completion of the conversion of the templates, and thus the issue has to be closed. Either someone implements this change (contingent on scholarly proof in favor of the change), or we throw it at as unsubstantiated. I've been hesitant to add the change because I am still unclear what the exact parameters of the change are, and I do not consider copying Ancient Greek transliteration wholesale to be a viable option since it mixes phonemic and phonetic transcription freely and is not sourced. I have now looked through these books where I thought the relevant information would reside: Aside from the mention in Horrocks cited early, I've found nothing supporting the claim of deletion and nasalization in Byzantine Greek. There does appear to be agreement for -γμ- and -γν- resulting in and, respectively, which Probert (in Bakker) says is phonemic. At this point, either we have to prove this claim and implement it, or ignore it. I'll also point out that, if we decide not to implement this now but later find evidence for the change, it's just a matter of changing the code. As for my changing back, Wiki, I hadn't noticed you'd restored the old template but instead thought I'd just failed to update it to the new one while editing the page. I was not intending to war with you. — JohnC5 01:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * (Allen 1968) Vox Graeca-A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek (I actually used the find function to read ever passage using the word "nasal" in this entire book.)
 * (Bakker 2010) A Companion to the Ancient Greek Language
 * (Browning 1983) Medieval and Modern Greek
 * (Horrocks 2010) Greek-A History of the Language and its Speakers (again, I searched for every instance of "nasal".)
 * Thanks for doing the research! If you've found nothing supporting the claim of deletion and nasalization in Byzantine, then I'd say our course of action is clear. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:19, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * You guys are neglecting two important points:
 * This isn't only about nasalization or deletion of nasals, but also about the effect of the nasal on the following consonant. Namely, the fact that voice stops did not become fricatives, and unvoiced unaspirated stops became voiced (merging with the voiced stops).
 * Even regarding nasalization and/or deletion of nasals, we know for sure that this happened (based on the situation in Modern Greek, including Pontic Greek (Wikipedia mentions 🇨🇬 < 🇨🇬). The only question is when it happened. Horrocks 2010 seems to imply that this occurred at around the same time that the aspirated stops became fricatives.
 * So there is enough evidence to suggest that our current implementation is wrong, but not enough evidence to enable us to fix it. The lack of scholarly material on this makes me question the entire rest of our reconstructions of post-classical Greek. Do we actually know when all these vowel shifts occurred, or are we again simply relying on the old template (which as John said is not sourced)? If we don't find evidence, I would then say we are not in a position to reconstruct post-classical Greek pronunciation and we should remove it entirely. --WikiTiki89 15:04, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * You make some very good points. I think we can say with certainty that nasals were deleted in the Byzantine period. I think we definitely can show the deletion of nasals and the changes to the ensuing stops. My question is about the nasalization of the preceding vowel can be shown. As for the vowels, Horrocks has very explicit description of the vowel shifts, if someone would like to read through that (I'm not super in the mood at the moment). But if we showed the deletion of the nasals, effects on the following consonants, and checked over the vowels, would that be sufficient? I'm not exactly sure what to say about the nasalization of the vowels at the moment.
 * Also, does anyone know whether Gilgamesh responds to email? A great deal could be clarified if we knew what sources were used. — JohnC5 21:51, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * The entries for the inflected forms of show the dropping of the nasal in Constantinopolitan Greek when followed by a voiced stop - a feature still present in Modern Greek - but what about the impact of nasal consonants on subsequent voiceless stops? Given the existence of a parallel phenomenon involving nasals and stops, it would seem that the cluster -ντ- in, for example, should be voiced, since this is the pattern in the Modern language. I say this because a primary conclusion of Horrocks is that by the time of the Turkish conquest, Greek had phonologically already assumed its Modern form, more or less. As a lay observer, it would seem that if a voiced consonant cluster can first resist fricativization and then denasalize by the fifteenth century, an unvoiced nasal consonant cluster can become voiced, if only because it requires one less step. Indeed, I recall that this was how the module behaved until recently. Is the module not showing it voiced because the voicing was not phonemic? Thanks in advance for your answer and for all your hard work as well. Tectosax (talk) 06:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what this thread is about. We're trying to fix the module to display everything, but it seems we are lacking enough scholarly sources that break up this phenomenon by period. Do you happen to have any? --WikiTiki89 18:36, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Nonspacing breve and macron
The module used to accept the nonspacing breve and macron signs, but it doesn't anymore, resulting in thousands of pages in Category:Ancient Greek terms with incomplete pronunciation. Can the previous behavior please be restored? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:01, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed, I think. I had changed the tokenization function so that it did not automatically convert spacing characters to combining, because that was causing a coronis to disappear in transliteration. But that indirectly affected this module. — Eru·tuon 19:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Voiceless stops being aspirated before /s/
Any verification on this? mellohi! (僕の乖離) 22:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * What's an example of this? I don't see any reason we would know unless there were evidence in manuscripts of alternations. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 00:09, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ,, , basically every single word that contains a /ks/ and /ps/ cluster. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 00:20, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, of course. Here's what Allen (Vox Graeca, p.57) says:
 * In the pre-Eucleidean Attic alphabet they were written as and  respectively (e.g., ), i.e. with aspirated first members; and this aspiration survives when, as occasionally, there is metathesis of the sounds (e.g. , ). It seems unlikely, however, that full aspiration was involved; in forms like ,  from ,  +  the grammarians in fact speak of loss of aspiration; and this is supported by the operation of Grassmann’s Law (see p. 13: e.g. original  → , but not  → ) . Certainly there is no contrast between aspirate and non-aspirate in this position, and any degree of aspiration that may have existed here can be ignored by the modern reader without any danger of confusion.
 * This seem to argue against it generally. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 00:48, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * So we reach a question - should we let the module proper continue to aspirate /ks/ and /ps/ clusters or not? mellohi! (僕の乖離) 04:02, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Showing them as aspirates is definitely the more extreme decision, and if we lack the evidence to support it, then we should avoid it., do you agree? —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 19:14, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of . There was no contrast in phonation of stops before, and seem the least marked of the three possible alternatives. — Eru·tuon 01:50, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Great. How does this module work again? —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 02:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm also in favor of /ps ks/. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:20, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * All the rules are in Module:grc-pronunciation/data, and the consonant stuff uses tables to describe simple phonological rules. I'll look at changing it. — Eru·tuon 22:53, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * FYI, that was a joke. I just didn't want to do it. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 02:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Heh. It is somewhat tedious. — Eru·tuon 03:53, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

missing pronunciation of ç
The key for 15th CE Constantinopolitan pronunciation of ὀρχήστρα, for example, leads to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology, where there is of course no explanation of ç. It should instead be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Greek. --Espoo (talk) 09:48, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * We should create our own key instead of linking to Wikipedia. --WikiTiki89 19:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm (temporarily) chaning Attic ζ from /sd/ to /zd/
As long as we show assimilation of as /zd/, it doesn't make sense to give  as /sd/. --WikiTiki89 14:25, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

title: Module talk:grc-pronunciation/Archive 1


text:
Module talk:grc-pronunciation/Archive 2

Possible fixes
I'm not sure if these things are wrong, but comparing some of this template's results with some of grc-ipa-rows's results makes me wonder about some things. First of all, consider when did the voicing of π τ κ after a nasal take place? grc-ipa-rows shows it in 15th c. Constantinopolitan, but grc-IPA doesn't:

Which is right?

Second, the treatment of β δ γ after a nasal is not consistent in grc-IPA:

Did the voiced stops really first become fricatives and then become stops again (with the exception of unpalatalized gamma, which apparently remained a fricative)? Did the nasal consonant really disappear before /b/ and /d/ but remain before /ɟ/ and /ɣ/? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a tough question, the pronunciation of stops after nasals. I'm not sure how one would go about determining it. But I suppose it would be best to simply treat all the sequences the same, phonologically speaking, in each period of Greek, unless there is evidence that they were different. — Eru·tuon 22:07, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

 * No, voiced plosives remain voiced after homorganic nasal consonants through the end of the Ancient period in 1453. And yes, this seems to imply that, at some point, voiced and voiceless plosives after homorganic nasals did indeed merge, as most cases of γγ have merged with γκ in modern Demotic.  And if I recall correctly, the lenition of plosives after homorganic nasals was a rather artificial development that emerged with Katharevousa and rubbed off onto Katharevousa-influenced modern Demotic Greek.  Of course, this is just what I remember off-hand, but it does reflect how I wrote these templates before they were converted to Lua.  I'd edit them myself now, but I never learnt Lua and I wouldn't really know what I'm doing. - Gilgamesh~enwiki (talk) 04:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks, do you happen to remember what sources you used? Also, . — JohnC5 09:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * --Barytonesis (talk) 09:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Oh, just what's already been provided in Wikipedia's articles for a long time now. I tried to follow the details meticulously, providing for all the conservatively regular sound laws as documented, which informed how I wrote Template:grc-ipa-rows and its dependent token-based Template:grc-ipa-cla (5th BC Attic relying on Ancient Greek phonology), Template:grc-ipa-koi (1st BC Egyptian relying on Koine Greek phonology), Template:grc-ipa-koi2 (4th BC Koine relying on the same article), Template:grc-ipa-byz (10th BC Byzantine relying on Medieval Greek) and Template:grc-ipa-byz2 (15th BC Constantinopolitan relying on the same article). Though I'm not saying my choices of token logic certainly shouldn't be reviewed as needed, I based it on the sound laws documented, for example: I took care to write the documentation in Template:grc-ipa-rows/documentation to assist future editors (for both embedding the rows template and maintaining the template and tokens themselves), though this was before Lua-based template scripting really became a thing. I know template maintenance is necessarily a more technical topic with fewer takers than the editing of articles themselves, because one has to be both sufficiently educated in the linguistics topic as well as in the more technical aspects of template embedding syntax, logic and (now also, obviously) Lua scripting. When I wrote the documentation and tried to make the templates as maintainable as I could, it didn't occur to me that this new programmatic scripting approach would see someone rewriting the template in Lua with a haphazard replication of my token logic. - Gilgamesh~enwiki (talk) 17:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * For the sequence εῦφ, indicated by the token "eeu^ph":
 * → (because the vowel is metrically at least two morae long and the tone falls on the penultimate vowel mora instead of the last vowel mora)
 * → (because the off-glide became a consonant, devoiced before voiceless consonants)
 * → (because the off-glide and the following consonant merged into a long consonant)
 * → (because geminated consonants had lost their gemination in Constantinopolitan at the time of the fall of Constantinople)
 * The 2007 version of my token templates (broken in my 2012 template restructuring which I've at least partially bugfixed just now) had tokens like ns (after long vowels) and nns (after short vowels), where a nasal before a sonorant was unstable in Classical Greek and would regularly disappear and lengthen the preceding vowel, which was actually anticipated in names like Τίρῠνς (the ί is actually accented long ῑ), which was actually pronounced *Τίρῡς with two long vowels, otherwise Classical Attic tonal laws would have forced it to be *Τῖρῠνς. However, this elision of nasals was no longer necessarily productive in the learnt pronunciation of the Hellenistic period when many non-Greek peoples learnt Greek, and so the nasal returns in pronunciation, though disappears again in Constantinopolitan when nasals regularly disappeared before all fricatives.  So  became:
 * Also regular sound laws for voiceless plosive-plosive and voiceless fricative-fricative consonant clusters becoming fricative-plosive sequences (or plosive-fricative sequences if the second consonant was ), which during even learnt Medieval Greek was a function of basic language phonotactics of the time (and also allowed late Koine ξ ψ to become instead of  from Attic and earlier Koine ).  Language purism in a medieval Byzantine Empire was largely a matter of maintaining prescribed written norms, and how it was spoken was not as such a priority as the language phonotactics kept evolving.  It wasn't really until the much later Katharevousa period with a more centralized Greek state education system that there was real success in changing educated speaker phonotactics to allow sequences like plosive-plosive, fricative-fricative, nasal-fricative, etc.
 * Also regular sound laws for voiceless plosive-plosive and voiceless fricative-fricative consonant clusters becoming fricative-plosive sequences (or plosive-fricative sequences if the second consonant was ), which during even learnt Medieval Greek was a function of basic language phonotactics of the time (and also allowed late Koine ξ ψ to become instead of  from Attic and earlier Koine ).  Language purism in a medieval Byzantine Empire was largely a matter of maintaining prescribed written norms, and how it was spoken was not as such a priority as the language phonotactics kept evolving.  It wasn't really until the much later Katharevousa period with a more centralized Greek state education system that there was real success in changing educated speaker phonotactics to allow sequences like plosive-plosive, fricative-fricative, nasal-fricative, etc.

I've voiced stops remain stops after nasals according to what  said about them above. There is still the inconsistency in which the nasal before the stop vanishes in the sequences. — Eru·tuon 23:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Now γγ is transcribed as, and μπ, ντ, γκ as , in. — Eru·tuon 21:49, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Combining acute
A problem I just noticed: the template doesn't accept combining acutes. currently renders without pitch accent or stress marks:. — Eru·tuon 06:16, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you have to do it the other way round: ά plus a combining breve. It would be nice if it recognized both variations, but it doesn't. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:20, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Nasal γ before μ
As I recall, W. S. Allen says γ before μ was assimilated and pronounced as a nasal: πρᾶγμα. γ before ν might as well, but evidence is less clear. The occurrence of γν (but not γμ) in syllable onsets might suggest γ is a stop there, though perhaps assimilation happened between vowels. Different situation from Latin, where g in gn was clearly assimilated.

Just a note. Another item on the list, I'm sure (thinking of ). — Eru·tuon 05:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Use and
Hi, can you use these templates in the pron please? Thanks in advance! — AWESOME meeos ！ *  (не нажима́йте сюда́ [nʲɪ‿nəʐɨˈmajtʲe sʲʊˈda]) 08:47, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

 * The text that includes "BCE", etc. is already a link itself though. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:50, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * When the templates are used, users can decide for themselves (thanks to Per-browser preferences) whether to have it displayed as "BC" and "AD" or "BCE" and "CE". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not handled by mod:grc-pronunciation but instead by mod:a/data. It's not immediately clear to me the best way to implement this change. — JohnC5 14:59, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Finally . I created an alternative form of this date label, because the original one would not work in the template, and a separate procedure in the JavaScript gadget to handle it. — Eru·tuon 01:48, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. We appreciate. sarri.greek (talk) 04:33, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Geminates
I believe they were lost earlier, see, for example, this papyrus from the 6th century with κομέντο(ν) for κομμέντω(ν). Does anyone have more data on the topic? Guldrelokk (talk) 12:40, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

nst

 * 1. Are these correct? nst now is ns.t Would n.st be wrong?  e.g.

Same with str (s.tr instead of .str) Oh just noticed: is the k.s not ks?

Thank you, sarri.greek (talk) 04:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * 2. Is it possible to isolate periods? Or at least, stop the later ones appear? e.g. I need only cla for e.g. ἔχεν
 * At the moment, you can only choose which period to start with. My reasoning in support of this is that even if the word wasn't used, Greeks of later ages still read it out loud in their pronunciation, like the YouTube video I once watched of Homer recited or sung with Modern Greek pronunciation. So, even Homeric words have a Koine or Medieval pronunciation.
 * We haven't made an attempt to divide syllables correctly yet. I don't even know how the module does it. I would want to base it on syllable weight: if a syllable was heavy (long) and didn't have a long vowel, it had to end in a consonant. For instance, regarding the ks example, would have been heavy–light–heavy in Homer, and the weight of the first syllable means that the ks cluster has to be split between syllables.
 * I guess that's different from the practice of letting a word-internal consonant cluster be a syllable onset if it is also found at the beginning of a word. Under that practice, since ks can appear at the beginning of a word (like ), it shouldn't be split between syllables:, light–light–light. But then the IPA transcription would disagree with actual syllable weight. So is better, and that practice can't be applied to periods of Greek that had quantitative meter.
 * Three-consonant clusters too have to donate at least one consonant to the previous syllable. For instance, is long–short, so  or maybe, but not . There are clusters that are variable though, which is part of why we haven't automated it yet. — Eru·tuon 08:39, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Anyway, in response to your first question, I agree with you that n.st looks better than ns.t. I might work on fixing that. — Eru·tuon 08:43, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Thank you . I have no opinion on phonology. And I admire immensely your work here. From what you are telling me, my impression is
 * 1. The 5 periods should be dealt with in isolation. Non-prosody periods, very different, as you describe. 5th period has only slight difference with the 6th period: modern. (y and some double consonants...).  Ξ, Ψ split in 10th century? to k‑s and p‑s? (compounds ἔκστασις ok) But I eat an op‑sarion (I eat a fish ὀψάριον)? They are double‑consonants by now, not clusters?
 * 2. Manual intervention should be possible -for authorized editors; like you- For minor-corrections. E.g. Hard to believe that in 15 century, or any non-prosody-period, they were pronouncing compound words like ἀ‑διάσ‑τροφος instead of ἀ‑διά‑στροφος (from στροφή and not τροφή). I have no opinion for consonant clusters within stems.

 * You are doing such an excellent work! I just wrote here to give my feedback, but it is a speaker's feedback, not a phonologist's. Eru! If we go back to 5thBCE Athens, everyone will understand YOU and not me. But if we go to Alexandria, or Constantinople, of 3rdCE I think they will understand me a bit more?! sarri.greek (talk) 14:31, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Double consonants: geminate, or long?
I noticed that double consonants are shown in Egyptian, Koine, and Byzantine transcriptions as geminate consonants broken across syllable boundaries (e.g.: ;Ἀπολλῡ́ων; /a.polˈly.on/). However, I could not find any information on the double consonants' actual gemination—as in having a pressure contour of two distinct peaks, one for either syllable—and I have read it proposed elsewhere that the consonants were probably just long. Should this be reflected in how the template transcribes these consonants, that /…C₁.C₁…/ would instead become /….ːC₁…/ (e.g.: */a.po.ˈːly.on/)? Blue Caper  (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Writing a geminate consonant with two symbols isn't meant to imply anything about pressure contours. I think we went with it for Ancient Greek because it allows the transcription to clearly show .  is light–heavy–heavy–heavy, and  is clearly a heavy syllable. The transcription  suggests that the second syllable is light. (The length mark goes after the consonant.) So if the length symbol was used, the transcription would not show syllable weight before a double consonant.
 * Syllable weight is a significant phonological feature that determines the form that the comparative and superlative suffixes take when added to first- and second-declension adjectives: and  after a heavy syllable, or  and  after a light one. (Granted, I couldn't find an adjective with a comparative and superlative that has a stem ending in a double consonant.) It's also the basis for quantitative meter. So it's helpful to show it in the transcriptions. — Eru·tuon 22:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Module talk:grc-pronunciation/Archive 2


text: wyleś

title: wyleś


text:
fánas

Noun

 * 1) gap

Etymology 2
From.

Noun

 * 1)  faun

title: fánas


text:
ribín seoil

Noun

 * 1)  reef-point
 * 2) gasket

title: ribín seoil


text:
ichó

Etymology
From, from. Cognate with 🇨🇬.

Noun

 * 1) pressure trap for catching partridges

title: ichó


text:
fáin

Etymology 1
See.

title: fáin


text:
S.A.D

Noun

 * 1) es:sociedad anónima deportiva (sports club)

title: S.A.D


text:
COAC

Noun

 * 1) Concurso oficial de agrupaciones del carnaval de Cádiz (carnival of Cádiz)

title: COAC


text:
affärskvinna

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) businesswoman

title: affärskvinna


text:
valgada

Etymology
. Perhaps from a local, from ; or else from a language.

Noun

 * 1) glen, dell, small valley in between mountains

title: valgada


text: wychyl

title: wychyl


text: chyl

title: chyl


text: pochyl

title: pochyl


text: nachyl

title: nachyl


text: uchyl

title: uchyl


text:
πρόφρων

Adjective

 * third declension

 * 1) zealous, eager, earnest

Inflection
Alternative Epic feminine and adverb forms:

title: πρόφρων


text: ochyl

title: ochyl


text: schyl

title: schyl


text:
HUSC

Proper noun

 * 1) Hospital Universitario San Cecilio (hospital in Granada)

title: HUSC


text:
HUVR

Proper noun

 * 1) Hospital Universitario Virgen del Rocío (hospital in Seville)

title: HUVR


text:
HUCA

Proper noun

 * 1)  (hospital in Oviedo, Asturias)

title: HUCA


text:
HULP

Proper noun

 * 1) Hospital Universitario La Paz (hospital in Madrid)

title: HULP


text: wymyk

title: wymyk


text:
wycięcie

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1)  cut-out
 * 2)  neckline
 * 3)  ectomy, excision, resection
 * 1)  ectomy, excision, resection
 * 1)  ectomy, excision, resection

title: wycięcie


text: wysuń

title: wysuń


text: posuń

title: posuń


text: osuń

title: osuń


text: dosuń

title: dosuń


text: nasuń

title: nasuń


text: wsuń

title: wsuń


text: zsuń

title: zsuń


text:
ἶσος

Declension
Alternative feminine forms:

title: ἶσος


text: Template:U:hu:adv-alatta

title: Template:U:hu:adv-alatta


text: κήρυκες

title: κήρυκες


text: ὀφθαλμοῖσι

title: ὀφθαλμοῖσι


text: σφισι

title: σφισι


text: Abendsternen

title: Abendsternen


text:
zetrzeć

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  to wipe off, to rub off
 * 2)  to chafe, to wear down
 * 3)  to grate, to shred
 * 4)  to wear down, to become worn
 * 5)  to clash, to butt heads
 * 1)  to clash, to butt heads

title: zetrzeć


text: ἀφ'

title: ἀφ'


text: πολέμῳ

title: πολέμῳ


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Ryukyuan/oto

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) sound

Descendants

 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Ryukyuan/oto


text: ἕνεκ'

title: ἕνεκ'


text: ἀγορῇ

title: ἀγορῇ


text:
мурза

Noun

 * 1) Morza

title: мурза


text:
налой

Noun

 * 1)  analogion, lectern, desk

title: налой


text: πολέες

title: πολέες


text:
sclerometria

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) sclerometry

title: sclerometria


text:
starcie

Etymology 1
From.

Noun

 * 1)  clash, fight
 * 2)  argument, quarrel
 * 3)  scratch, graze
 * 1)  argument, quarrel
 * 2)  scratch, graze
 * 1)  scratch, graze

title: starcie


text: sclerometrie

title: sclerometrie


text:
Talk:adjacence

difference between this and adjacency? --12.14.8.66 23:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:adjacence


text:
Talk:adjacency

difference between this and adjacence ? --12.14.8.66 23:12, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:adjacency


text:
клоб

Noun

 * 1) gentleman's club

title: клоб


text:
διαλυμένου

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένου


text:
διαλυμένο

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένο


text:
διαλυμένε

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένε


text:
διαλυμένη

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένη


text:
διαλυμένης

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένης


text:
Padilha

Etymology
From.

title: Padilha


text:
διαλυμένοι

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένοι


text: ocal

title: ocal


text:
esgotamento

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) exhaustion, depletion

title: esgotamento


text: esgotamentos

title: esgotamentos


text:
διαλυμένων

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένων


text:
corretora

Noun

 * 1) brokerage company whose business is to act as a broker

title: corretora


text: corretoras

title: corretoras


text:
διαλυμένους

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένους


text: ocalę

title: ocalę


text:
διαλυμένες

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένες


text:
διαλυμένα

Pronunciation

 * and in fast speech:
 * Old

title: διαλυμένα


text:
oftalmoscópio

Noun

 * 1) ophthalmoscope

title: oftalmoscópio


text: oftalmoscópios

title: oftalmoscópios


text:
ἴθι

Verb

 * : go! (speaking to one person)

title: ἴθι


text: Ἀχιλλεῦ

title: Ἀχιλλεῦ


text:
User:Erutuon/scripts/graveToAcuteRedirect.js

/* * Automatically create three types of Ancient Greek redirects: * - from titles with graves to the corresponding title with an acute: *    καὶ → καί * - from titles with apostrophe-like characters to the straight apostrophe: *    γ’ → γ' * - from a title with two accents in the final word to the version with the *  final accent removed: *    ἦέ → ἦε * * Install by adding this to your Special:MyPage/common.js:

importScript('User:Erutuon/scripts/graveToAcuteRedirect.js');

*/

/* jshint boss: true, undef: true, unused: true */ /* globals $, mw, OO */ //

(function { if (mw.config.get('wgCurRevisionId') !== 0)	return;

const decomposedTitle = mw.config.get('wgPageName').normalize('NFD'); // U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE, U+1FBD GREEK KORONIS, U+1FBF GREEK PSILI, // U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK const wrongApostrophe = /[ʼ᾽᾿’]/g; // U+0027 APOSTROPHE const rightApostrophe = "'"; // const curlyApostrophe = "’";

// in mainspace and page hasn't been created and title contains a character in // the Greek and Coptic block if (mw.config.get('wgNamespaceNumber') === 0		&& /[Ͱ-Ͽ]/.test(decomposedTitle)) { const grave = '\u0300'; const acute = '\u0301'; const circumflex = '\u0342'; const consonants = 'βγδζθκλμνξπρςστφχψ'; let rightTitle; if (decomposedTitle.includes(grave)) { const finalGraveRegex = new RegExp(grave + '([' + consonants + ']*)$'); if (!finalGraveRegex.test(decomposedTitle)) { mw.notify("No grave accent at end of term!"); return; }		// No need to recompose; the server does that automatically. rightTitle = decomposedTitle.replace(finalGraveRegex, acute + '$1'); } else if (wrongApostrophe.test(decomposedTitle)) { rightTitle = decomposedTitle.replace(wrongApostrophe, rightApostrophe); } else { // If last word has two accents, remove the last and redirect to it. const match = decomposedTitle.match(/[^_]+$/); const lastWord = match && match[0]; if (lastWord) { const allTones = new RegExp("[" + acute + grave + circumflex + "]", "g"); const match = lastWord.match(allTones); if (match && match.length === 2) { let i = 0; rightTitle = decomposedTitle.replace(lastWord,					lastWord.replace(allTones, function (tone) { return ++i === 2 ? "" : tone; }));			}		}	}	if (rightTitle) { const redirect = '#REDIRECT ' + rightTitle.normalize('NFC') + ''; $(function {			switch (mw.config.get('wgAction')) {				case 'edit': case 'submit':					const textbox = $('#wpTextbox1');					if (textbox.textSelection('getContents') === '')						textbox.textSelection('setContents', redirect);					break;				case 'view': {					mw.loader.using([ 'mediawiki.Uri', 'oojs-ui' ]).done(function  { // Use preloadtext parameter implemented in MediaWiki:Common.js // to set text in textbox. const button = new OO.ui.ButtonWidget({							label: 'Create redirect to ' + rightTitle,							href: new mw.Uri(location.href).extend({ action: 'edit', preloadtext: redirect }).toString						});

const buttonContainer = $(' ').append(button.$element);

$('#firstHeading').after(buttonContainer); });				}			}		});	} }

function hasAmbig(greekStr) { // αιυ followed by diacritics (not macron, breve, circumflex, iota subscript) greekStr = greekStr.normalize('NFD'); const diaeresis = '\u0308'; let match; const vowelAndDiacritics = /([αεου]?ι|[αεηο]?υ|α)([\u0300-\u036F]*)/gi; while (match = vowelAndDiacritics.exec(greekStr)) { const [, vowels, diacritics ] = match; // macron, breve, circumflex (perispomeni), iota subscript if (!/[\u0304\u0306\u0342\u0345]/.test(diacritics)				&& (vowels.length === 1 || diacritics.includes(diaeresis))) { return true; }	}	return false; }

/* console.log('start tests'); for (const [ word, expected ] of [	[ 'ἑκατόμβας', true ],	[ 'αἰδοίη', false ],	[ 'ἄγετ', true ],	[ 'Βηθσαϊδά', true ],	[ 'Βηθσαῐ̈δ', false ], ]) { const result = hasAmbig(word); console.log(word, expected, result, result === expected ? 'success' : 'failure'); }

// in mainspace and page hasn't been created and title contains a character in // the Greek and Coptic block and last character of title is straight apostrophe if (mw.config.get('wgNamespaceNumber') === 0		&& /[Ͱ-Ͽ]/.test(decomposedTitle)		&& decomposedTitle[decomposedTitle.length - 1] == rightApostrophe		&& mw.config.get('wgAction') === 'edit') { const charsTemplate = 'grc'; const ambigParameter = hasAmbig(decomposedTitle) ? '|' + charsTemplate.replace(rightApostrophe, '') : '';	const contents = `==Ancient Greek==

POS
$('#wpTextbox1').textSelection('setContents', contents); }

});

//


text:
regueira

Etymology
From, from.

Noun

 * 1) stream, brook
 * 2) ditch
 * 3)  crack space between the buttocks
 * 1)  crack space between the buttocks
 * 1)  crack space between the buttocks

Etymology 1
From.

Noun

 * 1) ditch a small channel of water for irrigation or drainage

title: regueira


text: ὄπισθε

title: ὄπισθε


text: ἐμῆς

title: ἐμῆς


text: ocali

title: ocali


text: viscerals

title: viscerals


text: viscerais

title: viscerais


text:
διαλελυμένος

Etymology
, passive form of, from the Hellenistic. Also,. Morphologically, from +.

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένος


text: redundâncias

title: redundâncias


text: pessimismos

title: pessimismos


text: ἄλγε'

title: ἄλγε'


text:
διαλελυμένου

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένου


text: διαλελυμένῳ

title: διαλελυμένῳ


text:
desajeitadamente

Etymology
From.

Adverb

 * 1) awkwardly, clumsily

title: desajeitadamente


text:
διαλελυμένο

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένο


text: διαλελυμένον

title: διαλελυμένον


text:
διαλελυμένε

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένε


text:
διαλελυμένη

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένη


text: ἕλοντο

title: ἕλοντο


text:
διαλελυμένης

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένης


text: διαλελυμένῃ

title: διαλελυμένῃ


text: υἱέ

title: υἱέ


text: διαλελυμένην

title: διαλελυμένην


text: διαλελυμένω

title: διαλελυμένω


text: διαλελυμένοιν

title: διαλελυμένοιν


text:
διαλελυμένα

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένα


text: νυκτί

title: νυκτί


text: διαλελυμέναιν

title: διαλελυμέναιν


text:
διαλελυμένοι

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένοι


text:
preferível

Etymology
From.

Adjective

 * 1) preferable

title: preferível


text: preferíveis

title: preferíveis


text:
διαλελυμένων

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένων


text: διαλελυμένοις

title: διαλελυμένοις


text:
διαλελυμένους

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένους


text: διαλελυμέναι

title: διαλελυμέναι


text: arenji

title: arenji


text:
διαλελυμένες

Pronunciation

 * Old
 * Old

title: διαλελυμένες


text: Wiktionary:Foreign Word of the Day/2019/February 9


text: διαλελυμέναις

title: διαλελυμέναις


text:
Rhymes:Swedish/²ɵsɪn

Usage notes

 * 1) In accents that lack accent 2, words ending in -¹sɪn are also rhymes for words on this page.

title: Rhymes:Swedish/²ɵsɪn


text: διαλελυμένας

title: διαλελυμένας


text: ἕντο

title: ἕντο


text: esfregões

title: esfregões


text:
split pea

Noun

 * 1)  An agricultural or culinary preparation consisting of the dried, peeled, and split seeds of, the pea.

Translations

 * Chinese:
 * Mandarin:
 * Estonian: poolikud herned
 * Finnish: halkaistu herne
 * French:
 * German: Schälerbse
 * Greek:
 * Hungarian:
 * Italian: piselli gialli
 * Korean: 완두 짜개
 * Persian:
 * Spanish: arvejas partidas, chícharos partidos, guisantes partidos

title: split pea


text: εἰσιν

title: εἰσιν


text: starty

title: starty


text: violinos

title: violinos


text:
Citations:Weixinism

Noun: 20th-century Chinese new religious movement

 * 2015, David W. Kim, “Sangje and Samkye: The Cosmology of Daesoon Jinrihoe in East Asian New Religions” in Journal of the Daesoon Academy of Sciences:
 * While Christianity was introduced as a new religion, there were indigenous new religious movements in each nation of China, Japan and Korea. China initially witnessed the appearance of Xiantiandao, Yiguandao, Zailiism, Yaochidao, Jiugongdao, De Religion, Weixinism, and Tiandism.
 * 2015, Chun-chih Huang, Holy Weixinism — World Peace Starts from the Worship of Ancestors:
 * Holy Weixinism — World Peace Starts from the Worship of Ancestors [book title]
 * 2016 February 17, Stacy Hsu, “Lu touts religious rights as forum nears” in Taipei Times:
 * Lu said many religions in Taiwan have joined together in support of the forum, ranging from Taoism and Christianity, to I-Kuan Tao and the nation’s newest religion, Weixinism, which she said demonstrates harmony and solidarity among the nation’s various religions.

title: Citations:Weixinism


text: extensões

title: extensões


text: wydarty

title: wydarty


text: μάν

title: μάν


text: Wiktionary:Foreign Word of the Day/2019/February 10


text: nadarty

title: nadarty


text: podarty

title: podarty


text: caipiras

title: caipiras


text: zdarty

title: zdarty


text: odarty

title: odarty


text: udarty

title: udarty


text: ἕστασαν

title: ἕστασαν


text: oddarty

title: oddarty


text: madrinhas

title: madrinhas


text: dugongos

title: dugongos


text:
darty

Etymology 1
.

Noun

 * 1)  A party held in the daytime.

Verb

 * 1)  To participate in a darty.

Etymology 2
From.

Adjective

 * 1) Tending to dart; tending to make quick and sudden moves, especially to the side.
 * 2) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.
 * 1) Of a car: having a sharp turning radius and tight steering that is responsive to slight turns of the wheel.

title: darty


text: pirâmides

title: pirâmides


text: convicções

title: convicções


text: subtrações

title: subtrações


text: cafetãos

title: cafetãos


text: bisões-americanos

title: bisões-americanos


text: comparações

title: comparações


text: seteiras

title: seteiras


text: centúrias

title: centúrias


text: zoologistas

title: zoologistas


text: Ἀγαμέμνονος

title: Ἀγαμέμνονος


text: puãs

title: puãs


text: ἤλυθεν

title: ἤλυθεν


text: curações

title: curações


text: escravidões

title: escravidões


text: paleontologistas

title: paleontologistas


text: subtraendos

title: subtraendos


text: talismãs

title: talismãs


text: split peas

title: split peas


text: cangurus

title: cangurus


text: Category:Domari terms with IPA pronunciation


text: Category:Requests for gender in Domari entries


text: Category:Arabic terms belonging to the root ن ق ر


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Sanskrit


text: Category:Domari terms inherited from Sanskrit


text: Category:oc:Lamiales order plants

title: Category:oc:Lamiales order plants


text: Category:Krisa terms with usage examples


text: Category:Domari terms borrowed from Arabic


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Arabic


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Sauraseni Prakrit


text: Category:Domari terms inherited from Sauraseni Prakrit


text: Category:Requests for etymologies in Domari entries


text: Category:Arabic terms belonging to the root ه ذ ر


text: ἧος

title: ἧος


text: Category:Chinese terms derived from Taishanese


text: Category:English terms prefixed with testiculo-


text: Category:Evenki adverbs

title: Category:Evenki adverbs


text: Category:Evenki terms suffixed with -т

title: Category:Evenki terms suffixed with -т


text: Category:Kabuverdianu interjections

title: Category:Kabuverdianu interjections


text: Category:grc:Piperales order plants

title: Category:grc:Piperales order plants


text: Category:rmt:Anatomy

title: Category:rmt:Anatomy


text: Category:rmt:Family

title: Category:rmt:Family


text: Category:Agarabi entry maintenance

title: Category:Agarabi entry maintenance


text: Category:Albanian terms borrowed from Doric Greek


text: Category:Albanian terms derived from Doric Greek


text: Category:Arabic terms belonging to the root ب غ ض


text: Category:Azerbaijani terms derived from Eastern Romance languages


text: Category:Azerbaijani terms derived from South Slavic languages


text: Category:Balinese terms derived from Oghuz languages


text: Category:Belarusian terms suffixed with -нуць


text: Category:Belarusian terms suffixed with -іца


text: Category:Bulgarian terms derived from Bulgar


text: Category:Catalan terms borrowed from Persian


text: Category:Chinese terms derived from Sauraseni Prakrit languages


text: Category:Cumbric term requests

title: Category:Cumbric term requests


text: Category:Danish terms suffixed with -klasses


text: Category:Domari adjectives

title: Category:Domari adjectives


text: Category:Domari palindromes

title: Category:Domari palindromes


text: Category:Domari prepositions

title: Category:Domari prepositions


text: Category:Domari reference templates

title: Category:Domari reference templates


text: Category:Domari terms borrowed from Central Kurdish


text: Category:Domari terms borrowed from Persian


text: Category:Domari terms borrowed from Turkish


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Central Kurdish


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Persian


text: Category:Domari terms derived from Turkish


text: Category:English terms borrowed from Macushi


text: Category:English terms derived from Numidian


text: Category:English terms suffixed with -geneically


text: Category:CJKV triplications

title: Category:CJKV triplications


text: Category:Ese language

title: Category:Ese language


text: Category:Esperanto terms derived from Dharug


text: Category:Estonian terms derived from Southwestern Iranian languages


text: Category:French terms prefixed with myelo-


text: Category:German terms borrowed from Norwegian Bokmål


text: Category:German terms derived from Norwegian Bokmål


text: Category:Gujarati terms derived from Nepali


text: Category:Gujarati terms derived from Newar


text: Category:Hindi verbs by inflection type

title: Category:Hindi verbs by inflection type


text: Category:Hittite verb forms

title: Category:Hittite verb forms


text: Category:Imonda terms with usage examples


text: Category:Italian terms borrowed from Egyptian


text: Category:Italian terms borrowed from Middle Dutch


text: Category:Japanese kanji with ancient on reading ゑい


text: Category:Japanese kanji with historical kun reading ばうふら


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading いいあらそう


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading うごかす


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading でんしん


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading なぶる


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading ひきづな


text: Category:Japanese kanji with kun reading ひく


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with kanji read as しばしば


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 周 read as まわ


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 新 read as さら


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 稠

title: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 稠


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 謁

title: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 謁


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 謁 read as えつ


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 𫌷

title: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 𫌷


text: Category:Kabuverdianu vulgarities

title: Category:Kabuverdianu vulgarities


text: Category:Khakas terms with usage examples


text: Category:Kombio entry maintenance

title: Category:Kombio entry maintenance


text: Category:Kombio terms by their sequences of characters


text: Category:Makasar appendices

title: Category:Makasar appendices


text: Category:Marathi terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *ǵʰed-


text: Category:Meänkieli conjunctions

title: Category:Meänkieli conjunctions


text: Category:Mountain Koiari terms by their sequences of characters


text: Category:Mozarabic reference templates

title: Category:Mozarabic reference templates


text: Category:Nii entry maintenance

title: Category:Nii entry maintenance


text: Category:Northern Thai modules

title: Category:Northern Thai modules


text: Category:Old Japanese compound terms

title: Category:Old Japanese compound terms


text: Category:Old Japanese short forms

title: Category:Old Japanese short forms


text: Category:Pictish term requests

title: Category:Pictish term requests


text: Category:Plains Cree terms borrowed from Tsuut'ina


text: Category:Plains Cree terms derived from North Athabaskan languages


text: Category:Polish terms prefixed with pikt-


text: Category:Requests for cleanup in Old Dutch entries


text: Category:Requests for etymologies in Amis entries


text: Category:Requests for etymologies in Lote entries


text: Category:Requests for pronunciation in Bourguignon entries


text: Category:Russian indefinite pronouns

title: Category:Russian indefinite pronouns


text: Category:Tsuut'ina entry maintenance

title: Category:Tsuut'ina entry maintenance


text: Category:Scottish Gaelic terms derived from Cumbric


text: Category:Scottish Gaelic terms derived from Pictish


text: Category:Shan morphemes

title: Category:Shan morphemes


text: Category:Skou lemmas

title: Category:Skou lemmas


text: Category:Skou nouns

title: Category:Skou nouns


text: Category:Skou terms with usage examples

title: Category:Skou terms with usage examples


text: Category:Sundanese terms derived from Sinitic languages


text: Category:Terms calqued from Blackfoot

title: Category:Terms calqued from Blackfoot


text: Category:Terms calqued from Tsuut'ina

title: Category:Terms calqued from Tsuut'ina


text: Category:Terms calqued from Venetian

title: Category:Terms calqued from Venetian


text: Category:Ubir terms with usage examples

title: Category:Ubir terms with usage examples


text: Category:Ukrainian terms derived from Dutch


text: Category:Urat terms with IPA pronunciation


text: Category:Urat terms with usage examples

title: Category:Urat terms with usage examples


text: Category:Warembori entry maintenance

title: Category:Warembori entry maintenance


text: Category:West Frisian terms derived from West Semitic languages


text: Category:Western Huasteca Nahuatl adjectives


text: Category:Western Ojibwa terms by etymology


text: Category:Western Ojibwa terms derived from Algic languages


text: Category:ar:Chickens

title: Category:ar:Chickens


text: Category:ar:Medical signs and symptoms

title: Category:ar:Medical signs and symptoms


text: Category:ar:Parrots

title: Category:ar:Parrots


text: Category:ar:Piciforms

title: Category:ar:Piciforms


text: Category:ar:Piperales order plants

title: Category:ar:Piperales order plants


text: Category:ban:Business

title: Category:ban:Business


text: Category:es:Brown algae

title: Category:es:Brown algae


text: Category:es:Celery family plants

title: Category:es:Celery family plants


text: Category:es:Dogbane family plants

title: Category:es:Dogbane family plants


text: Category:es:Malvales order plants

title: Category:es:Malvales order plants


text: Category:fa:Cypress family plants

title: Category:fa:Cypress family plants


text: Category:gl:Neurology

title: Category:gl:Neurology


text: Category:gl:Neuroscience

title: Category:gl:Neuroscience


text: Category:gmq-scy:Atmospheric phenomena

title: Category:gmq-scy:Atmospheric phenomena


text: Category:gmq-scy:Rain

title: Category:gmq-scy:Rain


text: Category:grc:Asterales order plants

title: Category:grc:Asterales order plants


text: Category:grc:Ericales order plants

title: Category:grc:Ericales order plants


text: Category:grc:Honeysuckle family plants

title: Category:grc:Honeysuckle family plants


text: Category:it:Softball

title: Category:it:Softball


text: Category:it:Water plants

title: Category:it:Water plants


text: Category:kjh:Religion

title: Category:kjh:Religion


text: Category:kk:Mathematics

title: Category:kk:Mathematics


text: Category:la:Caryophyllales order plants

title: Category:la:Caryophyllales order plants


text: Category:la:Piperales order plants

title: Category:la:Piperales order plants


text: Category:lv:Fats and oils

title: Category:lv:Fats and oils


text: Category:mn:Communism

title: Category:mn:Communism


text: Category:mnc:Carnivores

title: Category:mnc:Carnivores


text: Category:mnc:Mammals

title: Category:mnc:Mammals


text: Category:mr:Bodily functions

title: Category:mr:Bodily functions


text: Category:mr:Feces

title: Category:mr:Feces


text: Category:nl:Anatomy

title: Category:nl:Anatomy


text: Category:oc:Honeysuckle family plants

title: Category:oc:Honeysuckle family plants


text: Category:pi:Cities in Pakistan

title: Category:pi:Cities in Pakistan


text: Category:pl:Radio

title: Category:pl:Radio


text: Category:pt:Brown algae

title: Category:pt:Brown algae


text: Category:rmt:Beverages

title: Category:rmt:Beverages


text: Category:rmt:Currency

title: Category:rmt:Currency


text: Category:rmt:Demonyms

title: Category:rmt:Demonyms


text: Category:rmt:Metals

title: Category:rmt:Metals


text: Category:rmt:Weapons

title: Category:rmt:Weapons


text: Category:ru:Sailing

title: Category:ru:Sailing


text: Category:su:Applied sciences

title: Category:su:Applied sciences


text: Category:th:Mushrooms

title: Category:th:Mushrooms


text: Category:uk:Sailing

title: Category:uk:Sailing


text: Category:uz:Board games

title: Category:uz:Board games


text: Category:xbi:List of set categories

title: Category:xbi:List of set categories


text: Category:xbi:Vertebrates

title: Category:xbi:Vertebrates


text: Uk.S.S.R.

title: Uk.S.S.R.


text:
UkSSR

Translations

 * Azerbaijani: USSR
 * Belarusian: УССР
 * Catalan: RSSU
 * Czech:
 * Georgian: უსსრ
 * Polish: USRR
 * Romanian: RSSU
 * Russian:, УСРР, УкССР, УРСР
 * Ukrainian: УРСР

title: UkSSR


text: Category:Macedonian terms prefixed with пре-


text:
Hanize

Verb

 * 1)  To make more like the Han Chinese culture or language

title: Hanize


text:
пастуший

Adjective

 * 1)  shepherd's

title: пастуший


text:
د خ ن

Etymology
Denominal from.

Root

 * 1) related to smoke

title: د خ ن


text:
𠾅

Glyph origin
.

title: 𠾅


text: bielą

title: bielą


text: bieli

title: bieli


text: biele

title: biele


text: bielę

title: bielę


text: pobiel

title: pobiel


text: wybiel

title: wybiel


text: ubiel

title: ubiel


text: obiel

title: obiel


text:
Spul

Noun

 * 1) spool

title: Spul


text: pa'l

title: pa'l


text:
Spuck

Noun

 * 1) saliva, spit, spittle

title: Spuck


text: 罔顾

title: 罔顾


text:
罔顧

Verb

 * 1) to ignore; to disregard; to pay no attention to

title: 罔顧


text: rugę

title: rugę


text: rugał

title: rugał


text:
ဖျာ

Noun

 * 1) mat.

title: ဖျာ


text: łają

title: łają


text: karć

title: karć


text: łaj

title: łaj


text:
Ollywood

Etymology

 * compare.

Proper noun

 * 1)  The Odia-language film industry located in Odisha, India.

title: Ollywood


text: łaję

title: łaję


text: łaje

title: łaje


text: zabiel

title: zabiel


text: powiel

title: powiel


text: wywrę

title: wywrę


text: wywrą

title: wywrą


text: zǎochǎn

title: zǎochǎn


text: xiǎochǎn

title: xiǎochǎn


text: luòtāi

title: luòtāi


text: wywarł

title: wywarł


text: wywarty

title: wywarty


text: yāozhǎn

title: yāozhǎn


text: obrany

title: obrany


text: rozdarty

title: rozdarty


text:
User:TheMormonThelemite/Books/Navajo A Verbs

 * aʼaał
 * aaníí
 * achįʼ
 * achʼiish
 * adichʼą́ą́h
 * adidzééh
 * ádįįh
 * adijił
 * adikaʼ
 * adilnííh
 * adiloh
 * adiłhash
 * ádin
 * adinídíín
 * adiníłdíín
 * adishah
 * aditał
 * adlą́
 * ahaʼdeetʼaah
 * áhátʼį́
 * aheełtʼé
 * ahéénílį́
 * aheenízaad
 * ahigą́
 * akʼeʼełchí
 * akʼídádéestʼį́į́ʼ
 * ákótʼé
 * aldeeł
 * alghał
 * alizh
 * alkeed
 * alzhish
 * ałchin
 * ałchozh
 * ałeeh
 * ałhą́ą́ʼ
 * ałhosh
 * ałjił
 * ałkąąh
 * áłtʼą́ą́ʼígo
 * ałtaaneesdiz
 * ałtsʼééh
 * áłtsʼíísí
 * áłtsʼísí
 * ałtso
 * áłtsʼóózí
 * áłtsʼózí
 * ánééh
 * ánéeltʼeʼ
 * ánéídlééh
 * ání
 * áníldííl
 * áníłtsááz
 * ánítʼį́į́h
 * anitséés
 * ánízáád
 * ászólí
 * átʼé
 * átʼį́
 * atłʼiid
 * atłʼó
 * ayą́
 * áyóʼní
 * ayóóʼáyóʼní


text: Thesaurus:完結

title: Thesaurus:完結


text: ἁπάντων

title: ἁπάντων


text: ἅπαντες

title: ἅπαντες


text: ὠκέας

title: ὠκέας


text: Category:it:Constellations in the zodiac


text:
wpadka

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1)  slip-up, gaffe, screwup, mishap
 * 2)  unwanted, unplanned pregnancy

title: wpadka


text:
Spritz

Noun

 * 1) injection
 * 2) syringe

title: Spritz


text: Πατρόκλοιο

title: Πατρόκλοιο


text: ταῦτ'

title: ταῦτ'


text: σφισιν

title: σφισιν


text: τευ

title: τευ


text: ἄλλ'

title: ἄλλ'


text: RRBS

title: RRBS


text: chūqíbùyì

title: chūqíbùyì


text:
Module:number list/show/documentation

The  function in this module creates the table at the top of each number data module that shows the contents of the module.

title: Module:number list/show/documentation


text: δίδου

title: δίδου


text: xiǎotídàzuò

title: xiǎotídàzuò


text:
Haeisnaems

Etymology
From.

title: Haeisnaems


text: Category:lic:Provinces of China

title: Category:lic:Provinces of China


text: Category:lic:China

title: Category:lic:China


text: Category:lic:Political subdivisions

title: Category:lic:Political subdivisions


text: Xiànxíng Wénzì Ēi

title: Xiànxíng Wénzì Ēi


text: Xiànxíng Wénzì Bì

title: Xiànxíng Wénzì Bì


text: xiànxíng wénzì

title: xiànxíng wénzì


text: hàoqíxīn

title: hàoqíxīn


text: Category:Hlai pronouns

title: Category:Hlai pronouns


text: shàngxiàng

title: shàngxiàng


text: shàngzhào

title: shàngzhào


text: Thesaurus:上相

title: Thesaurus:上相


text: Category:Hlai humble terms

title: Category:Hlai humble terms


text: Category:Hlai honorific terms

title: Category:Hlai honorific terms


text: Category:Hlai terms by usage

title: Category:Hlai terms by usage


text: Category:English nouns prefixed with over-


text: Category:English adjectives prefixed with over-


text: 果昔

title: 果昔


text: guǒxī

title: guǒxī


text: guǒxí

title: guǒxí


text:
dhes

Pronoun

 * 1) I; me

title: dhes


text:
overlightly

Etymology
From, , equivalent to.

Adverb

 * 1)  In an overlight manner; too easily or readily; frivolously

title: overlightly


text: Zhāoháng

title: Zhāoháng


text: shíqǔ

title: shíqǔ


text:
撿拾

Verb

 * 1) to pick up; to collect; to gather; to find

title: 撿拾


text: 捡拾

title: 捡拾


text:
таах

Etymology
From, perhaps from, or otherwise related to.

Compare 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬.

Verb

 * 1) to guess
 * 2) to suppose, to conjecture

title: таах


text: Thesaurus:撿拾

title: Thesaurus:撿拾


text: Category:en:Caridean shrimp

title: Category:en:Caridean shrimp


text: Category:Caridean shrimp

title: Category:Caridean shrimp


text:
Sprecherei

Noun

 * 1) conversation

title: Sprecherei