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Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2020/June

kindergartner
What's kindergartner's etymology in relation to kindergarten? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * kindergarten + -er, with spelling influenced by 🇨🇬; but probably not derived directly from the German because of the difference in meaning. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, there is the second sense with that meaning, with a quote dating from the 19th century... Leasnam (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe a split in etymology is needed (?) Leasnam (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

wiktionary : etymology of entry "kyarn"
kyarn is an Appalachian/southern word used by natives of the area. Kyarn is simply a derivative of the word "carrion".

I used it as a child. An example of a use of the word in a sentence could be, "That dog rolled in kyarn!"

ผล
The word in question is. I've changed the section title, because the link from the article wasn't working. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I found an unlinked challenge to the etymology of this Thai word by ; the etymology section then derived the word from Sanskrit. I've added a reference to the 1999 Thai Royal Institute Dictionary, which says it derives from Pali and/or Sanskrit. (I think it's unlikely we can ever resolve beyond 'and/or'.) I've added Pali as an alternative source. I propose we close this challenge. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 * Yes. The official dictionary has proven itself. Pali and Sanskrit influenced Thai very much (via Buddhism propagation); we cannot absolutely decide which one derived since both are same spelling. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:32, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 * Is there a formal process for closing etymology RfV's down? Removing the RfV link seems a bit hasty?  Should we have waited until 120 hours had passed from my initial, ungainsaid post? --RichardW57 (talk) 09:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

fuck 12
The entry says this may come from 1312, but other sources say it comes from the drug enforcement unit or code of Atlanta's police department, or some other origin. Can anyone figure out which etymology is right? See Talk:fuck 12 for more discussion. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

keelyvine pen
RFV of the etymology.

This looks like an attempt to update a vague etymology in an outdated work by just reformatting it with templates. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * An entry can be found in Century 1911 (Search 'full-text'. Some problem with their indexing prevents one-click access.). The etymology there is not particularly convincing. DCDuring (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 * All dictionaries that have the entry (also Webster’s 1913) agree that is a noun. Yet another spelling is keelavine. An abundance of etymologies (killow vein, cueill de vigne!) are suggested here.  --Lambiam 07:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Lat. cunīculus << cunnus
Ok so, the vulgar (= commonly found) opinion holds this to be of Iberian origin, whether proto-Basque (for no reason as far as I can see) or Celtiberian (, looks probable). However here's an article: Hernández (2013), "El origen de cuniculus (> conejo) y su difícil, pero legítima, relación con cunnus (> coño)" that I've quickly skimmed through (my Spanish comprehension isn't stellar), and it makes too much sense to be left unnoticed. The semantic relationship mirrors the one in. The single consonant is a perfect instance of the mamilla-rule (p.87). There's one important point that the article doesn't address, but to which I think I've found a solution, or even several: the long ī, which would be unexplained if we take the word to be an o-stem diminutive. However it corresponds perfectly to the likewise-unexpected - the analogy is plain. There are other -īcula words formed with -ul- on the -īc-s suffix, as in as well as -ēcula to -ēs, like. This -iculus/-īculus might be the same variation as seen in. I also wonder if the ī wasn't provided by a (folk-etymological or otherwise) connection to, so "defecate~give birth".

Does anyone know how Celtiberian diminutives looked like? Is it possible that the word combines the Celtiberian word for "dog" with the suffix of Latin as a sort of half-loan half-translation? This would explain the connection with Spain in ancient sources. By the way, the orthoraphic variation in Greek κόνικλος/κύνικλος/κούνικλος betrays a borrowing from a language with an open /ŭ/, the most obvious candidate being Latin, the reverse of what's currently stated. The initial accent would be regular for Plautus, reflecting a loan before ~200 BC, but only if the i was short. A long one would need to reflect the Archaic Latin initial accent (the first instance seems to be in Polybius). A clear possibility is that both short- and long-vowel forms coexisted - and Romance in fact reflects just this sort of variation.

Or is this accentuation simply regular (or analogical) for Greek? And if so, does it mean a short vowel? Brutal Russian (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have answers to any of your questions, but in most ancient Indo-European languages diminutives are formed from the stem, not (necessarily) the nominative singular, so I would expect any Celtiberian diminutive of the word for to be built on, not directly on . —Mahāgaja · talk 09:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, I took this as self-evident Brutal Russian (talk) 12:52, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

nyonya
RFV of the etymology. The Hokkien word is particularly suspicious. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 08:00, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In Indonesian this is a respectful term, also used as a term of address, for a married woman – just like formerly . I’d be rather surprised if the meaning in Malayan Malay is not basically the same. In fact, that is the meaning given for the Malay term by the Chinese Wiktionary. Obviously, Hokkien cannot be both the etymon and a descendant, but I don’t see what is suspect about this being the etymon; in fact, it looks quite plausible (to me), far more so than the other two suggestions (Italian for lack of contact, Portuguese for the phonemic distance). --Lambiam 17:27, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the pronunciation given for 娘娘 is not attested AFAIK. Unless we have proof that the pronunciation niô͘-niâ existed at some point, this etymology is problematic. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , do you have a source for this? Also pinging, who has provided some evidence over at Discord. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:52, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Is the Min Nan pronunciation we give at 娘娘 also unattested? Also note this statement in the Wikipedia article on the : “Members of this community in Malaysia address themselves as Baba Nyonya. Nyonya is the term for the women and Baba for the men.” On the Chinese Wikipedia, the Peranakan are named, which I surmise originally reflects a pronunciation spelling.  --Lambiam 08:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you mean the pronunciation at 娘惹. That should be reliable; it's the pronunciation in Penang Hokkien. This pronunciation doesn't necessarily match the pronunciation of the two characters individually though. 娘娘 pronounced as niô͘-niâ looks like it's a corroborated pronunciation based on niô͘ and niâ, two possible readings in (Zhangzhou) Hokkien. It's unclear whether niô͘-niâ actually exists and what it means in Hokkien. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 08:47, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Macedonian сака
Moved from Tea_room/2020/June

Bulgarian etymology:

The Bulgarian entry for mentions Macedonian  as a cognate, but despite the phonetic resemblance and semantic overlap between the words, there is no way to account for the different ordering of the /s/ in the two languages. Furthermore, Bulgarian also has "сакам" as a separate word, listed in the etymological dictionary available at, and the etymology given is completely different from the one proposed for "искам". I am not sufficiently well versed in Slavic etymologies to feel comfortable changing the Bulgarian entry myself and I am not able to evaluate the accuracy of the Bulgarian etymological dictionary, but I am satisfied that connecting mentions Macedonian  in the Bulgarian entry as cognates without comment is altogether inadequate. Perhaps someone more familiar with Slavic etymologies could effect the necessary modifications. Martin123xyz (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * is the easy one to etymologize; it comes straightforwardly from (which mentions a dialectal  as well. I agree that  can't come from the same root, but I don't know enough about Slavic historical linguistics to figure out where it does come from. My heart wants to connect it to, but I can't account for the change from g to k. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * : I have moved it here. I agree that Macedonian is of the same origin with the Bulgarian dialectal, probably unrelated to . Does Mladenov mention ? : Hi. Do you think you can help here? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 * : User:Bezimenen has provided referenced etymologies at both Macedonian and Bulgarian, which seems good. Thank you very much! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Proper etymology of -n't
While usually is a contraction of  in the middle of a phrase ("I [do not/don't] want any ice cream, thanks"), sometimes, it's used to form a contraction in a place where "[x] not" would be ungrammatical ("Don't you want ice cream?" versus "Do not you want ice cream?"). I'm not sure 1.) how to include this at relevant places but I'm leaning toward just a usage note at -n't and 2.) how that morphed into being used in places where "[x] not" would never occur today. Was "Do not you want ice cream?" formerly correct English but it fell out of favor? Did -n't go from being strictly "do not" to "do [you] not"? Can anyone help me understand this phenomenon? Also, does this skipping-"you" form of the contraction have a name? Thanks. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 * This thread at Stack Exchange may be of interest to you: Was “Do not you want to know…” correct 200 years ago, and is now incorrect? Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are correct. Thanks. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Contraction" is not a very specific word, but what you're describing sounds like a clitic. Linguistically I think -n't is actually a suffix, so it can't be expected to always correspond to the full word not. This was argued by Zwicky and Pullum in 1983, against the view that it's a clitic. That is, auxiliary verbs have a negative form that's formed with -n't. Among the arguments are the fact that some verbs change pronunciation unexpectedly when -n't is attached (do + -n't = don't, will  + -n't = won't ), and that -n't can only be attached to auxiliary verbs, whereas clitics cause predictable changes in pronunciation and can be attached to any type of word. However, I guess this view is not taken by everyone. (I heard of the suffix analysis from User:TAKASUGI Shinji, who mentioned it in a previous discussion here.)
 * The Stack Exchange answerer says that auxiliary plus not plus subject is grammatical, but I would say only for particular types of English. I certainly wouldn't normally ever use it. It would sound unnatural. I wonder if writers back in the 18th century when the answerer says that this word order was common ever spelled not when they actually said -n't (or something in-between the two, somewhat reduced but not quite like -n't yet). — Eru·tuon 04:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't really help here, but want to note that the etymology of 'not' itself is suspect, not only because it's pretty much the same as for the however unrelated German 'nicht'. I thought once of an idea to derive a clitic *-nt, that I do alas not remember well, because it had to do with init, aint, etc. which are not attested as historical forms to begin with. 109.41.0.10 23:59, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Wade-Giles etymologies
Hey all. During the last two weeks, I have made probably fifty articles for English language proper nouns derived from Wade-Giles. I usually try to add at least two example usages and a map. Do my etymologies conform with standard practice used in other etymologies for English? Does what I'm doing make sense from the overall perspective? This is my first post on this part of the site, and I look forward to critical comments. Thanks!! Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * perhaps it would help if you gave some examples of the entries you have worked on. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * These were easy to find in the contribution log the day this was posted, see e.g. Tun-huang.
 * Geographyinitiative's talk page indicated that there was a disagreement about how to work with Wade-Giles. I haven't read the full discussion, but observed since then that a certain template comes with a 'wg=' option. Why not use that? Not editing Chinese I have to ask anyway: which template? 109.41.2.49 20:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * see the template used at kung fu for example. 109.41.0.96 20:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

狒狒 (Chinese, baboon)
The was originally attested in the  as a monster

When was the word begin to be used for the animal baboon? Was it influenced by a foreign language (likely, because the baboon is not native to China)? --Frigoris (talk) 19:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Polish kreda - immediately from Middle High German?
A Ukrainian dictionary says that was derived from Polish, which is in turn from German  or more likely (I think) from. This may not be perfect, since the Ukrainian has a /j/ but this was possibly influenced by German.

Should the etymology of be revisited for a more immediate origin (German or Middle High German), as it was done for ? Currently, the entry says from Latin or Ancient Greek.

At creta, it says that was from Italian.

Inviting or anyone interested or knowledgeable. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Doroszewski just says the Polish word is from Latin and doesn't mention any intermediaries: . Bruckner's Słownik Etymologiczny języka polskiego does however mention German Kreide: . No mention of MHG in either. BigDom 11:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Polish also had, that simple. It likes to simplify the German diphthongs, like for , which is strictly an inner-Polish development and not owing to the German source. 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬 are also from Polish. Fay Freak (talk) 15:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I'm now convinced about the Polish etymology but not so much about the Ukrainian. I'll leave it with Polish "or" German. The Latvian word I can find is . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * One has to wonder by the way whether the word had anything to do with writing per se. Has anything of note in this regard been observed? 109.41.2.49 21:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Book, Buch, buok etc.
Hi, at Talk:book I have noted that the etymology of "book" in its most common English meaning has been reassessed, and the most recent dictionaries I have differ from earlier ones. But here we have the older view. This affects a good many articles, including German Buch, Elfdalian buok, and Proto-Germanic *bōks. It would be good if some Germanic specialists would look at what I put on that talk page, decide what to do about it, and then go round all these pages making sure the information given in the entries on the various cognates is consistent. Thanks. --Doric Loon (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can provide scans of the relevant pages of the dictionaries I have if required. --Doric Loon (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd say we should probably mention both theories. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * While also mentioning the objections raised against the older theory. Kluge is a good secondary source. --Lambiam 17:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

be gathered to one's fathers, sleep with one's fathers
In the entries and, can a Hebrew speaker kindly provide the original Hebrew phrases from which the English is translated (Judges 2:10 and various verses in the books of Kings and Chronicles)? The OED transliterates them as "ne'ĕspū 'el-'ăḇōṯāw" ("they were gathered to their fathers") and "yiškaḇ ʿim-'ăḇōṯāw" ("he slept with his fathers"). Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ —Mahāgaja · talk 16:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

箜篌
The Etymology section on the page originally didn't mention the early attestation as  in the  referring to a 2nd-century BCE event. This I've added.

The part in question is the following theory which was in the section before:

 * The name might have originated as transcription of a foreign term from the west. Compare 🇨🇬,, both names of this instrument in the Sogdian language, as well as 🇨🇬 and the Turkic harp of .

Can we find some reference for this theory? --Frigoris (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I know neither music nor Chinese but if the meaning of the Sogdian word is the same the “theory” seems great; though one might doubt the identifications of words for instruments in old texts it is at least harp to harp. And given the descendants of the Middle Persian and Persian word the word seems to have spread circularly via Iranian already at that time. Didn’t you actually confirm the etymology by finding another arbitrary spelling which points to it being a “transcription of a foreign term”? Fay Freak (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

 * The problem is that the context surrounding the 空侯 attestation was way too sparse to deduce any etymological information besides a) dating and b) attestation as attestation per se. From the Chinese lineage the initial *kʰ- has been quite stable in Old > Middle  > Mandarin  Chineses, but the Sogdian forms given there (and the Middle Persian given on the page چنگ) have all shifted forward to č (= /tʃ/?). So it's not clear to me (who cannot read Iranian languages or Sogdian etc.) from which point the Chinese and Western forms may be shown to be close enough as loanable. It would be the best if we could find some references that show some plausible derivations. --Frigoris (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * č corresponds to /tʃ/ in transliterations of Middle Persian and Sogdian. --Z 10:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

 * MP is said to be borrowed form 🇨🇬, but I'm not sure how the pronunciation and timeline works out for that.
 * Gharib theorizes that Sogdian is borrowed from Turkic, but there's no evidence for this word that I can find. There is however Neo-Assyrian , also evidently borrowed into Late Sanskrit as  and likely Khotanese  is related somehow. Itself is said to be borrowed from Hurrian . --  18:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

פּאַרעוו
The etymology given here is totally different from the one given at pareve. Derivation from seems unlikely as b > p is not a known sound change between MHG and Yiddish, there is no explanation of the -ev, and the semantics are questionable. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , where'd you get the etymology from? —msh210℠ (talk) 14:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * From a book of a Yiddish linguist, I don't currently remember which book it was. There are a number of folk-etymologies, but the one I put in is from a linguist and also makes the most sense. -- Shad Veyosiv (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think we should follow in stating straightforwardly that the origin is unknown. They also mention a possible Slavic origin, which IMO is utterly unconvincing, while I find the Middle High German theory even harder to swallow.  --Lambiam 17:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , why do you find it unconvincing? Do you speak Yiddish? Pareve literally means "bare", just mostly in the sense "unaffiliated". It is very common for a Yiddish word to shift MHG "b" to "p" (for example, German vs Yiddish ), and the "eve" suffix is also very common in Yiddish (for example, ).
 * Anyhow, I found my original source. It's from Nochum Stutchkof's "Mame Loshn" page 320. Here's the link, I don't know how sourcing is done. --Shad Veyosiv (talk) 14:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * My issue is with the semantic gap between “bare, naked” and “neither fleischig nor milchig”. It is a pity that the author does not reveal the origin of the MHG theory he presents, but without further evidence to help bridge the semantic gap it has much the feel of a folk etymology. --Lambiam 20:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually the word is also used commonly as "unaffiliated". To me, "bare/naked" is much closer to the meaning of parev than any of the other etymologies suggested. -- Shad Veyosiv (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

staumaz
Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/staumaz says (omitting some steps) "from Proto-Indo-European *dʰew- (“to whirl, waft, stink, shake; steam, haze, smoke”). but Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/dʰew-, to which it links, has two etymologies, neither of them matching the list mentioned there. (I'd wondered if steam might be a -mn̥-suffixed derivative of the same root as steigen.) --ColinFine (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The link is possibly meant to go to RC:Proto-Indo-European/dʰewh₂- --ColinFine (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

How did end up with a long vowel?
English (the verb) has a reflex of an old/middle English long vowel, but as can be seen on, every other Germanic language has a short vowel. How did the vowel in English arise? —Rua (mew) 17:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The short answer is that the English verb derives from the noun; Onions' dictionary has it arising in Middle English. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Any idea why the noun has a long vowel then? That doesn't appear in any other language either. —Rua (mew) 12:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Onions claims it is a separate borrowing from Latin. He claims 'Popular Latin' had a long vowel, but I don't see any evidence for that.  Perhaps the English back vowels were different to continental Germanic vowels.  PGerm *u lowered less extensively in English than continental WGerm languages, but I'm just throwing out ideas. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Both L&S and Gaffiot explicitly write cŏcus. --Lambiam 17:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cp. OHG kohho "cocus", kohhon "coquere", kuhhina "cuquina, coquina", and kuohho "cake" without Latin etymon. Notably, cookie is thought not to be from "cook-" but primarily from Dutch koekje, koekie that is a diminutive of koek "cake"; a middle low German cognate kook traveled as far as Estonia. The Ger. diminutive to be derived from Kuchen however would be Küchlein, which, like Küche "kitchen" is long, as a matter of perception. More likely, openness of the vowel plays into that, which follows Middle German Umlautung that might be caused by '-i-' in either case. The geminate environment might be interesting in this regard (similar to long vowels before voiced sonorants, cf. Stackexchange), although today the phonology simply does not admit a long/short contrast in that place, as much as /x c,/ show a complementary distribution in most dialects. Further, there's a verb köcheln that looks itterative (cp. e.g. wackeln "to wiggle") though Grimm described it as Bavarian, diminutive (noun, but I mean the verb, "to simmer"). There's a similar kokeln "to singe, tinder" without reasonable etymology, DWDS/Pfeifer compare gypsy patoise gaukeln, Gaugler [PS: Gaukler] "trickster" (?). I suppose angekokelt "singed", apparently the past participle from an-kokeln, might as well be from *Hngw- (cf. ignite; note an- "to start, turn on" as well as "ad-"; PS: also "in-", cp. incinerate, note Ger entfachen almost fits *pekw-, whence coquus). Further more, suppose "koek" were backformed from "koekje", leaving the root to be explained other than from cocus, as it were, if -i- can have a different source than "diminutive" (cp. Swiss Kuchikästle). That's weird. A relation of Kugel "bullet, ball" to *gog > *koka had been inquired here before. That's even weirder. 109.41.0.224 05:42, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also compare, it has everything, "itterative", analogic vowel-grade, unexpected *k instead of *h. Alas, the reconstruction *(s)kek- violates PIE root constraints, as would *gog-. 109.41.3.98 02:36, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Further more, survey kek, not for the Albanian and Turkish "cake" and "cooky" that would be loans, but for the cognate to quick "lively", Ger. keck, Nl. kwiek, reconstructing PGem *kwikwaz. I find verquicken "to bind, mix" tangentially of interest with regards to baking and bonding. Although Adelung (apud DWDS) sees it chiefly in 17th century Alchemie, from Quecksilber, this one at least goes back to Old High German evidence (800) and would be a surprisingly formidable calque of the Latin analogue argentum vivum, while it's a bit too much of a coincidence that it's actually cognate to quick.
 * Keck "sassy" may have an analogue in coquette. I'm not sure if the TLF attributes it to coq, coccus "cock, rooster", but that's what we do for cocky (note ety3, farmer of cock(atoo)). Also cp. cheek+y.
 * Kuchikästle is (Chuchichäschtli.
 * Although it does not, after all, confirm a relation to caseus, it's notable that wikipedia denies any proper use of the word in situ. Schachtel is a surprisingly distant relative of Kasten and all the same, as de.wp has it, is chäschtli; thus "cupboard".
 * Quickly checking the first link for schweizerdeutsch+käsekuchen I want to note "guetzi = plätzchen". Cut to the chase, it's reminiscent of quatio "shake" (*kweh1t-, though 'a' implies *h2), possibly related to pastry, comparable to quetschen, kwetsen "squeeze, mash, jam", and this also reminds of *kwh2e-t- > caseus, kvas (milkshake anyone?).
 * German Plätzchen "cooky" is reminiscent of placenta (Ger. Mutterkuchen; AGr. "flat cake"), even if Plauze "belly, paunch" might invite a different connotation, but I'll leave it at that. Cp. btw Quetsch (Zwetschke) and plum.
 * 109.41.0.96 23:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A similar vowel lengthening can be seen in 🇨🇬 from 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 from 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 from 🇨🇬. Leasnam (talk) 01:26, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

กรรม
Does primarily derive from Sanskrit as claimed, or is the primary source Pali ? If derived from Sanskrit, I would expect the form to be as in poetic synonym. Note that Thai spelling underwent a change in the spelling of the short vowel /a/ in closed syllables. In words of Pali origin, instead of writing it by doubling the final consonant, it was shown by ro han as though it came from Sanskrit. If the development is as in other cluster, -arCa from Sanskrit would have just the  sounded; final  is soundes as /n/. By contrast, cognate -aCCa from Pali would have the final C sounded. A well-known example of pure Sanskrit origin is. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:36, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The Khmer dictionary [Headley77] (available online at Sealang.net) says is from Pali. Some dictionaries are not very specific as to "derived" (via other language) or (directly) borrowed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Having found an Old Khmer dictionary, I'm beginning to wonder if the modern Khmer word was borrowed into Khmer after the Old Khmer period. I've 'left' Old Khmer  as a probable ancestor, but I'm not confident.  The authors of the dictionary think it existed, but they offer no evidence that it did.  It's quite conceivable that it was Sanskritised on sight.  --RichardW57 (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Any spelling with double 'm' (as in this one) is going to be assigned to Pali. Actually, the Sanskrit v. Pali distinction is quite clear in Khmer when Sanskrit has -arC-.  In Thai, the waters are muddied by the use of ro han, and I wouldn't be surprised if the spellings (but not the pronunciations) actually merged for a while.  If Sanskrit and Pali have cognate words, the RID ducks the issue and gives derivation from both sources.  In some cases, Thai words of Pali origin have been Sanskritised, as in, where the ร says Sanskrit but the ฬ says Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, you sort of answering your own question. Thai pronunciation may be influenced by its own phonology, Pali, Old Khmer or all together but the spelling suggests it's from Sanskrit or, at least, Sanskritised. If I see "Sanskrit or Pali" in Sealang dictionaries (be it Khmer, Thai or Burmese), I don't rack by brain and write both. I would suggest you do the same. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The reason for the interest is the etymology of Thai . I think the compound was formed, or reformed, in Thai.  It can't (purely) go back to Sanskrit if the second element is from Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll shift the main source to Pali, with Sanskrit as a possible contributor. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

pun
Are we just dismissing the notion that it is a shortening of pundigrion, alteration of punctilio? That seems far more likely that the etymology that we propose. Tharthan (talk) 10:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or is pundigrion perhaps a fanciful embellishment of pun, like <  and  <, similar to jocular coinages such as  and ? The semantic jump from  (some say ) to pun is hard to explain.  --Lambiam 20:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Fachidiot
Did this originate in Marxist circles? I can find a few results from the late 19th century for "Fachidioten". Moreover, is said to have been coined by Karl Kautsky and Eduard Bernstein, translating Marx's idiotisme du métier, a phrase used in Misère de la philosophie/Das Elend der Philosophie (sometimes presented as a coinage by Marx). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  11:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Old Prussian us- "six"
Is this a scribal error? It doesn't even resemble an Indo-European numeral. RubixLang (talk) 16:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No. There are reported to be three forms of the word for 'sixth': usts, uschts and uschtai.  There's no known attestation of the cardinal number.  Staring from *swek̂s, we ɡet Balto-Slavonic *sveś or similar.  The assumption goes that *sveś > *veś, and then the ordinal is based on the zero grade. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There's another theory, which is mentioned at Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/swéḱs, according to which the oldest form of the PIE word for "six" was actually with no initial s at all. The Old Prussian forms (reflecting the zero grade ) are one piece of evidence for this;  is another piece of evidence, and even  is consistent with it, since initial w- sometimes becomes h- in Greek (e.g.  > ). Under this theory, the s- of the more common forms  and  was "imported" from, as it is not uncommon for numerals to acquire initial consonants from their neighbors ( probably got its f- from ; Eastern Baltic *dewin and  certainly got their d- from ). In some languages (Celtic, Iranian, possibly Greek) the imported s- was added to the w-, giving *swéḱs, while in others (Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Eastern Baltic, Tocharian) the s- replaced the w-, giving *séḱs. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The *d- was possibly a prefix (cp. dexter?), in that case any derivation from the same source would not count as a phonologic analogy. The same goes if *septmo was thought to be a superlative, not to mention that s- frequently appears like a prefix, notwithstanding putative afro-asiatic origin of *sept-. There's a link between *dwo, *dwi- (cf. dis-) and a prospective *wi (cf. wieder), though I somewhat doubt the later; Anyway, /w/ > /v/ was a Latin development actually, not Germanic, and *kwetwores is markedly unlikely as our entry says.
 * For numerals I prefer Blazek, who sums up neatly that no single reconstruction explains all the evidence. Therein are 3 (three) pages summing up attempts at internal reconstruction, "their value is only historical", which is a perplexing statement because d) derives the author's own conclusion that modifies and combines two prior results, mostly to resolve Indo-Iranian and some Balto-Slavic evidence that required *Kswek's (cf. e.g. Avestan), but ultimately doesn't explain the absence of *K in the other branches; that is > e.g. Hittite "hand" and *weḱ(s)- > Lithuanian "grow vigorously, thrive; prosper, flourish" (which we don't have as such; easily confused with *weǵ- "lively, awake; strong", or [not to be confused with] *h₂weg- "to increase, enlarge"), assuming palatal dissimilation to *ks- because of root constraints (no two palatals in one root / stem). Incidently, *g(h)e- is known as an intensive prefix in various functions, so the semantic interpretation is perhaps besides the point, as much as originality based on one outlier is not robust (subsuming Balto-Slavic under Iranian; also cp. Finnish kuusi). 109.41.1.147 19:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase “go ham”?
Does anyone have a source that can explain where this phrase actually comes from? I remember hearing it as early as the 80s or 90s.
 * Do you disbelieve the etymology provided at go ham? —Mahāgaja · talk 12:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This article sows some doubts about that etymology, and in fact many etymologies explaining a term as an acronym are based on backronyms.  --Lambiam 09:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The 1970s use example is almost certianly literal so we would need to explain how the sense evolved from dscribing an amateur radio operator to describing a fit of rage. On the other hand, the acronym etymology isnt convincing either since it was in use prior to Kanye's song.  — Soap — 14:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

jizdan apparently not of Semitic origin
the Arabic word for purse, wallet or  is apparently not of Semitic origin, the Turkish cognate cüzdan is borrowed from Arabic LinguisticMystic (talk) 13:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

 * According to Nişanyan, the Turkish word is borrowed from, in which it is a compound of the Arabic noun with the Persian suffix . The word is not listed in the Persian Wiktionary, but it is listed in the Pashto Wiktionary as a Pashto word, which makes it likely it is also a Persian word. If Nişanyan has this right, the Arabic term was most likely also borrowed (half of it being borrowed back) from Persian.  --Lambiam 11:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

 * I made . --Vahag (talk) 11:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Burkina Faso
There's a whole bunch of coinage templates here that shouldn't be, but that does beg the question: do we know what language this was coined "in"/"for"? French (the colonial language of the region)? — surjection ⟨??⟩ 19:28, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as Thomas Sankara was concerned, he doubtless coined the name to be Translingual, though I assume the decree renaming the country was written in French. As for the coinage templates, if you don't like the way the term gets categorized, the best solution IMO is probably just to add 1 to them. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Dryocopus, genus name of the pileated woodpecker
The pileated woodpecker appears to have served as the basis for an animated cartoon character many us have known as "Woody". So, I would say, for that reason alone, is a significant figure in many of our lives. And yet, its generic name "Dryocopus" does not readily appear in Wiktionary even though it is mentioned in Wikipedia accompanied by this footnote:

Jobling, James A. (2010). The Helm Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names. London: Christopher Helm. p. 140. ISBN 978-1-4081-2501-4.

Perhaps someone learned will add it.
 * Added to the Translingual entry at Dryocopus. I don't know what you meant by "its generic name 'Dryocopus' does not readily appear in Wiktionary", since we already had the entry- just not the etymology. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not mentioned at woodpecker, so instead of adding it themselves they come here to complain about the roundtrip to wikipedia. It's not a generic name, whether we need it at woodpecker is doubtable, and so this issue would belong in the Tea Room next door. 109.41.1.201 18:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The footnote they mentioned is from the Wikipedia page. I think they were expecting a link there to a Wiktionary page, and just assumed that no link meant no Wiktionary article. By the way, when you say it's not a generic name, don't  forget that generic name is a taxonomic term for the name of a genus, so in that sense it really is a "generic name". Chuck Entz (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

paucus > po(u)co?
Usually in the West Iberian languages, Latin c becomes g (pronounced in many of them) between vowels, e.g.  >  and  > /. So why did the c of remain c (/k/) in /? —Mahāgaja · talk 21:09, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In Vulgar Latin, a /k/ preceded by a semivowel and followed by a mid or back vowel does not get voiced. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . Thanks; do you have other examples? —Mahāgaja · talk 06:01, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Reconstruction:Latin/auca. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:04, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks! Given and, it seems there was a merger in French. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

at all costs
I've always interpreted this phrase as using cost 'amount of money spent for a purpose; negative consequence or loss'. However, it's listed as a derived term of cost 'manner, means; quality, condition'. Can it be determined which meaning of cost is the original one in this expression? —Mahāgaja · talk 08:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Century has it here [] at cost1. In Middle English it was alre coste ("in any way, at all", literally "of all costs [=by all costs]", genitive plural) and by no cost ("by no means, not at all"). Online Etymology Dictionary says that it's cost "price" influenced by the Old English "means" sense, but I think that's incorrect: I believe it's the other way around. Leasnam (talk) 15:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Japanese passive suffix
Here we have 3 types of this:
 * 1) From the regular passive form, -are-
 * age- + -are- = age(r)are-
 * hasam- + -are- = hasamare-
 * 1) From the transitivity verb pair, probably *-ar-
 * age- + *-ar- = agar- (?)
 * hasam- + *-ar- = hasamar- (?)
 * , -(te) ar-
 * Are they possibly cognate? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 18:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The last one is not a passive, so much as a resultative: someone unspecified has done the action, and now the result "is", as expressed by here in something closer to its older copular sense.
 * That aside, yes, broadly speaking, they may be cognate.
 * Looking back, the passive / intransitive / spontaneous / potential was originally in Old Japanese, shifting later to just .  This  attached nominally to the  verb stem ending in -a.  This could be analyzed instead as the verb root ending in a consonant + copular aru.  (Notably, copular aru was only aru in the attributive, while the terminal and continuative forms were ari.)  Thus, we could interpret  as root ag- + aru, or  as root hasam- + aru.
 * These forms are generally regarded in the modern language as spontaneous or intransitive, rather than passive, and the passive forms are built from the active or transitive forms of the verbs instead -- albeit using this same, itself in a conjugated form as , a regular kind of shift from older .  Verbs where the  stem doesn't end in -a get , which includes an additional  as a linking mora.  (This  was apparently already in evidence in Old Japanese, where it was used to link the earlier  ending to the  stem of  verb .)
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So can we write a Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/-ar- or something based on this? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 06:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm not sure if the above is settled in the academic world. There may be other interpretations that might impact any Proto-Japonic reconstruction.
 * That said, we already have Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/ari, of which *ar would be the root form. I confess I don't think it's altogether appropriate to reconstruct conjugated forms at the level currently given there, especially as the Ryukyuan branch's verbs ending in  seem to correspond more to final -ru in Japanese rather than -ri, but then again we're still figuring out how best to represent these Proto-Japonic reconstructions.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See also notes about tomo here. It seems to me that aru may have been the earlier form of ar-. Arfrever (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bjarke Frellesvig in A History of the Japanese Language (2010), page 103, explained ari / aru in this way:
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So can we write a Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/-ar- or something based on this? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 06:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm not sure if the above is settled in the academic world. There may be other interpretations that might impact any Proto-Japonic reconstruction.
 * That said, we already have Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/ari, of which *ar would be the root form. I confess I don't think it's altogether appropriate to reconstruct conjugated forms at the level currently given there, especially as the Ryukyuan branch's verbs ending in  seem to correspond more to final -ru in Japanese rather than -ri, but then again we're still figuring out how best to represent these Proto-Japonic reconstructions.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See also notes about tomo here. It seems to me that aru may have been the earlier form of ar-. Arfrever (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bjarke Frellesvig in A History of the Japanese Language (2010), page 103, explained ari / aru in this way:

r-irr verbs can be said to be syntactically rather than morphologically irregular: they use the infinitive as conclusive form. In other respects they are like the QD verbs. Note that the verb extensions be-, rasi-, and ram-, which regularly attach to the conclusive, attach to the adnominal of r-irr verbs: aru be-, aru rasi-, aru ram-. Another way of describing this would be to say that r-irr verbs have two conclusive forms: regularly formed aru (<= ar+u) used only with verb extensions, and ari (=infinitive) used elsewhere.

(92)            ar- Infinitive ari <= ar + i     Imperative  are <= ar + ye     Conclusive  ari <= ar + i     Adnominal   aru <= ar + ru     Exclamatory are <= ar + re Arfrever (talk) 01:13, 1 July 2020 (UTC) Regarding passive etc., in Bjarke Frellesvig's A History of the Japanese Language (2010), some excerpts from pages 63-64 (in OJ chapter): 3.1.4.4 Voice; causative and passive (...) The OJ passive functioned as a pure passive, a medium voice, and as a potential. OJ had two competing passive markers of which -(a)ye- was used rather more frequently than -(a)re- (their roles are reversed in EMJ into which -(a)ye- only survived in a number of lexicalized forms (kikoye-, miye-, omopoye-) and in reading glosses to Chinese texts, see 9.1.6). -(a)ye- was used with QD, n-irr, r-irr and UM verbs; -(a)re- with QD, n-irr, and r-irr verbs. Passives were not formed on verbs from other conjugation classes. -(a)ye- thus had a wider use than -(a)re-, both in terms of distribution and in terms of frequency. The straightforward interpretation of these facts is that -(a)ye- was the earlier passive marker and was replaced by innovative -(a)re-. There are a few lexicalized passive forms with a slightly irregular formation: kikoye- <= kik- 'hear'; omopoye- <= omop- 'think' (found alongside omopaye-, but was much more frequent). The passive auxiliary variant -rare-, attaching to vowel base verbs, does not appear in the language until EMJ (see 8.4.1) and forms no part of OJ, although it is included in some grammars. Furthermore, an OJ passive auxiliary *-raye- is traditionally posited, said to attach to UB and LB and sometimes also to s-irr and k-irr verbs. This is based solely on four occurrences of the set phrase i no nerayenu (i 'sleep', no genitive) in MYS 15 (3665, 3678, 3680, 3684), whose nerayenu is traditionally analysed as ne-raye-nu sleep-PASS-NEG 'not be able to sleep'. However, the non-formation of passives on bigrade verbs is entirely systematic (see 3.5.1). The singular form neraye- must be explained otherwise, e.g. as the passive of a verb ner-,⁴ or as an idiosyncratic analogical formation; it cannot alone form the basis for positing a general variant *-raye- as part of the grammar of OJ. And some excerpts from pages 236-238 (in EMJ chapter): 8.4.1 Passives and causatives

During the EMJ period, the OJ passive -(a)ye- and causative -(a)sime- went out of use and were replaced by the alternative OJ passive -(a)re- and the causative -(a)se- which is only incipiently and partially attested in OJ (3.1.4.4). Passive -(a)ye- was lost from early on in EMJ, but is reflected in lexicalized forms such as cNJ mie- 'be visible' (< OJ mi-ye- 'see-PASS') and in fossilized forms such as arayuru 'all' (< ara-yuru 'exist-PASS; can exist') (cf. 9.1.7); it was also used a little in kanbun-kundoku. Causative -(a)sime- gradually declined through EMJ, but was retained archaically in kanbun-kundoku and in kanji-kana majiribun writings which were heavily influenced by kanbun-kundoku. (...) In OJ, passives were only formed on consonant base and UM verbs, but not on LB, UB, s-irr and k-irr verbs, and that pattern holds also for the few examples of OJ -(a)se- (cf. 3.1.4.4). However, since EMJ, both causatives and passives are freely formed on verbs from all verb classes. The shape of the passive and causative auxiliaries which came to be used with LB, LM, UB, s-irr and k-irr verbs was new: -rare- and -sase-, and must have arisen by some sort of analogy. They were also extended to use with UM verbs, such that -rare- and -sase- were used with all vowel base verbs; the incipient OJ causatives attested on a few UM verbs: kise- 'make wear; dress' and mise- 'make see; show' were lexicalized with the meanings 'dress' and 'show', and productive EMJ causatives were formed on these verbs as kisase-, misase-. The traditional analysis of the formation is that each auxiliary has two basic variants, -sase- ~ -(a)se- and -rare- ~ -(a)re-, with the long forms attaching to the base of vowel base verbs (ake + sase; ake +rare) and the short forms attaching to the a-stem of consonant base verbs (e.g. kaka + se, sina + se; kaka-re, sina-re), but the analysis usually assumed for NJ is equally possible for EMJ, positing for each auxiliary a uniform shape, -sase- and -rare-, whose initial consonant is deleted after a base final consonant (e.g. kak + sase => kakase-, sin + sase => sinase; kak + rare => kakare-, sin + rare => sinare). (...) The EMJ causatives and passives seem to reflect a further morphologization of the derivational suffixes -(a)s- 'transitive' and -(a)r- 'intransitive'. (...) Arfrever (talk) 02:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


text:
Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2020/July

as best one can
How'd as best one can come to be? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * it's a now-obsolete order of as one can best, i.e. "in the way that one can best", or "in the way that allows one to ... best". --ColinFine (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

dalle (Spanish)
RFV of the etymology. I can't find evidence for any Latin word, and even if it did exist, I wouldn't expect it to become in Spanish. Even a with a short u (which is to be expected since  is a highly productive suffix in Latin) wouldn't become, it would become  or maybe. —Mahāgaja · talk 23:04, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I was able to find a few sources citing and have added them. Seems that the Spanish word was borrowed through Occitan or Catalan, though. DJ K-Çel (talk) 06:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding those! The DLE however marks the u with a breve, not a macron, confirming that it's short. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * To state the obvious: Cp. uncertain dagger s.v. The semantic divide can be bridged, of course, but Dacian being largely unknown is an unsolvable problem. 109.41.3.82 19:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, DJ K-Çel and Mahāgaja. Is it worth mentioning the Occitan in the entry (as well as )? I have also found a few more sources. On pp. 169–170 of Language and Linguistic Contact in Ancient Sicily (2012, edited by Olga Tribulato), Oliver Simkin has relevant discussion, in which he says that the "easiest reconstruction is a protoform *dʰalklo-, with loss of the first -l- in daculum and dissimilation to -n- in fancla and Zancle", and that "Late Latin daculum 'sickle, scythe' [is] [w]idely attested in Romance as French daille, Catalan dalla, Gascon dalh, Bearnaise dalha etc.; see Meyer-Lübke (1972: 229), Agud and Tovar (1990: 617)." Following those sources, we have Meyer-Lübke's entry *daculum in Romanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch (1911) and Agud and Tovar's entry  in Materiales para un Diccionario Etimológico de la Lengua Vasca VIII. Simkin also cites J. B. Trumper (2005), a version of which is here (see PDF pp. 19–20). Trumper also mentions the attestation, "Gladium, ensem, telum, mucronem, sicam, daculum", which is in Paolo Gatti's Synonyma Ciceronis ( 'Arba', 'humus' ) (1993). --Thrasymedes (talk) 20:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Glyph origin of 實
Currently it reads:

 * Ideogrammic compound : (“roof”) +  (“carved jade”) +  (“shellfish; cowrie”).

Looking at this page from 字形演變 @ 小學堂, chiefly the bronze-script attestation, it appears to my eyes as ⿳宀周鼎 or ⿱[⿵宀周]鼎, where  is the one that resembles  with a dot in each quadrant, and  a (miniature) caldron.

My questions:

 * Why is the 周 component glossed as "carved jade"? Naïvely I suppose "thorough; complete" would have been a more relevant gloss.
 * Is 鼎 or 貝 the better transcription of the bottom component?
 * If the current Glyph origin is indeed a reasonable one, can we find verifiable citation?

--Frigoris (talk) 20:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

lwa
The etymology here is unsourced. Wikipedia cites a source for a different etymology. Namely, it says that it derives from French. I'd like to see if anyone else has insight before I change it to match Wikipedia. Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 02:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * WP's etymology seems more likely given that r > l doesn't seem to be a sound change of Haitian Creole. The word for 'king' is /. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Mufwene says it's from 🇨🇬, which makes more sense than any suggestion based on French. But we should admit that the etymology is uncertain. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I'm curious, what would account for the accented (presumably stressed?) medial in the given Yoruba etymon reducing so much?  That seems unlikely somehow, though I confess I don't know the particulars of Haitian Creole.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:36, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The acute accent marks tone, although it is my understanding that that syllable is also the stressed one in this word (though stress is less salient than in English). Anyway, this kind of phonetic erosion is quite unremarkable given the social context. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:37, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Any chance this was influenced by the phonetics of ?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Why would it be? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've run into the etymology theory before outside of our entry, and I was curious if that might be one possible explanation for the vowel erosion.  However, I see now that the definite article in Haitian Creole comes after the noun, making this much less likely of an influence.  Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

snob
RFV of the etymology, added by an IP. – Jberkel 08:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Even if it could be sourced as one might hope, it would still be one of many speculative theories (Anatoli Liberman has blogged about these). This particular theory sounds like Fornication Under Consent of the King or Orl Korrekt. The latter has some evidence in its favour, at least. 109.41.3.82 19:16, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, found the Liberman post, I'll add it as reference point. – Jberkel 07:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

cutwal / katwal / kuthwal < کوتوال ?
The entries for 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 /, 🇨🇬, are all deriving from 🇨🇬, but the Persian word itself is apparently a borrowing from either Indic or Turkic languages. The word was apparently borrowed into Persian by the early military. --Z 09:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be sure about the Turkic derivation, 🇨🇬 is a very well attested Sanskrit word and the 🇨🇬 is directly rom Sanskrit not Persian. Gotitbro (talk) 09:30, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Icelandic and northern italian dialects
The icelandic word rusl (for garbage) has a cognate word in northern italian dialects (Piedmontese and Lombard, chiefly), rus or rüs, probaly derived from ancient Langobards or Longobards, a germanic tribe who ruled northern Italy in medieval age. Other variants of the name are ruda, rüff and similar around Milan. Another example is fé, icelandic for cattle, in some valleys in Piedmont feja means sheep or generic for domestic livestocks.

what language is this?
Does anyone know exactly what language the book Grammar of the Language of the Lenni Lenape or Delaware Indians by David Zeisberger is about? 173.49.113.77 18:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The two Lenape languages, Munsee and Unami. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

påg
While (Middle) Low German has had a substantial influence on Swedish vocabulary, this word is far more likely to be related to or. The latter theory is supported by the etymology on Swedish Wiktionary. Glades12 (talk) 11:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Withdrawn. I made the amateurish mistake of not checking the references first. Glades12 (talk) 11:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * : The defense appeals the withdrawing motion and seeks clarification: I don't buy it, yet. Granted, I cannot really read the Ordbok's entry for påk, and a derivation akin to "eng. poke" would depend on the explanation, but if attestation for pojke predates it by a century and matches semantically, there should be room for doubt. After all, we only say "possibly".
 * If there's a Low German comparand that meant "boy, child", we should say so specificly. Otherwise it's unfathomable for the regular user what the ordbok had in mind, IMHO. 109.41.1.197 18:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

trophy wife
According to an editor of Wikipedia's page, the term is older than Wiktionary says. For example, https://www.etymonline.com/word/trophy says "attested by 1984". It will take some digging to find out which older uses match the "status symbol" definition. A woman brought back as the spoils of war is different from a woman attracted to wealth. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * But I always thought that the connotation in any case was that the woman was "like a prize" with regard to reflecting the status of the man. So if an elderly man with a lot of money had a young, very attractive wife, it was partially seen as a symbol of status.
 * If some blood-thirsty commander came back to his homeland with a young, attractive woman from a foreign land as his wife to symbolise his victory in that war, is the connotation not nearly identical? In both cases the wife is treated as a "trophy", rather than as a co-equal spouse in their wedlock, no? Moreover, in both cases, might there not be the connotation that if the man were not wealthy/had not been the commander of the victorious army, the woman would not have married him?
 * Am I off base in that perception of the term? Tharthan (talk) 21:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * They come from different senses of (3 - prize taken in battle; 4 - a status symbol) and I would preserve that distinction in trophy wife.  Also, a trophy wife (trophy sense 3) is more likely a victim while a trophy wife (trophy sense 4) is more likely a gold digger.  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

 * The Wikipedia paragraph seems mostly useless. "A 1950 issue of The Economist magazine called attention to the practice of victorious warriors marrying beautiful women captured in battle." doesn't actually say they used the phrase "trophy wife". The 1984 claim cites no actual evidence whatsoever. The 1965 reference to Bernie Madoff is quoted in a 2009 publication- what is the actual source? DTLHS (talk) 22:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I posted here because I found the Wikipedia page plausible but not leading directly to anything I could cite. I only see a Google Books snippet of the 2009 book so I don't have the citation for the alleged 1965 use.  I theoretically have access to some archives that might help.  (Lexis-Nexis and the like.) Unfortunately getting to them requires fighting with VPNs or temperamental library proxies.  VPNs and I do not get along.  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Google Ngrams confirms an increase of use in 1984, and on Google books there's a cite from 1974: "Wayland, now sixty-five and married to a trophy wife, Amy, twenty years younger ". So the 1989 date we give is definitely wrong. – Jberkel 02:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * According to this that book was published in 1996. DTLHS (talk) 02:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm yes, it's actually even more recent, supplement 18, published 2009. Sometimes Google's dates are wild guesstimates. – Jberkel 08:07, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

大食 Dàshí < Tāčīk/Tāzīg or tāžīk ?
The entry for the Chinese Dàshí derives it from Middle Persian  (/Tāt͡ʃīk/, late form /Tāzīg/), but Chinese normally derive from other Middle Iranian languages, especially Sogdian. I suppose it could be determined on phonetic grounds, as the Sogdian cognate (as is the case with several other Middle Iranianlanguages, of course) is pronounced with /ʒ/ instead of /t͡ʃ/ or /z/. --Z 11:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Update to etymology of merula
Could someone verify if this update to the etymology of Latin merula by an IP is correct? The change was from to, but our entry defines the latter as "to give birth, beget". Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 07:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * On the one hand, there are numerous instances of homophony among PIE roots, and we don't always have all possible roots listed, so it's entirely possible that exists without us having an entry for it yet. On the other hand, Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/mesalkā says that although the Celtic, Germanic, and Italic words for  are related to each other, there is some doubt as to whether they go back to a PIE root at all, but rather could be a loanword from a substrate language of western Europe. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In that case, perhaps the etymology of merula needs updating? — SGconlaw (talk) 08:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Probably. I'd say all three etymologies should say the same thing, but if some modern scholars believe it does go back to a PIE root, and others believe it doesn't, then both hypotheses should be mentioned. Matasović refers to a 1997 article by Beekes in , while our entry Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/amslǭ refers to Guus Kroonen's Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic; unfortunately I don't have access to either work to see what exactly they say. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

γυνή
Where did the -αικ- of the oblique forms come from? —Mahāgaja · talk 18:38, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Beekes recounts that it might be from the adjective, in which case see -icos etc. Also mentione, a verb "to woe", cp. e.g. Ger. Angebetete. 109.41.0.226 07:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is often paralleled with 🇨🇬. See the literature I just added to . --Vahag (talk) 05:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Yiddish כאַפּן
Could this be from Old French happer? פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I added the etymology. The French is just a lookalike. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Etymology of Londra
What is the etymology of the Italian word for London (Londra)? It does not seem like it is inherited from Londinium or Lundonia. --Soumyabrata (talk • subpages) 14:45, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Romanophile actually already asked almost exactly the same question at Tea room/2020/July. I speculated a possible answer there, and no one else has commented. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Can any one advise on how much the technical meaning of this word in Pali grammar owes to Sanskrit? Also, a confirmation that the grammatical constructions are indeed different would be helpful. I thought it would be slam dunk for being a semantic loan from Sanskrit in this sense, but having compared dictionary entries I am no longer so sure. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

The word shows all the signs of being inherited from Proto-Indian Indic (not to be confused with what the word 'Sanskrit' means in British or American English), and I have recorded it as such. I should probably made some effort to show how it may have been regularly redundantly regenerated in Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

nitchie
The term niijii is sourced here in the Ojibwe People's Dictionary. However, the OPD shows the original term as niijikiwenh, not niikkaaniss. SteveGat (talk) 17:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Revised. - -sche (discuss) 04:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

siscowet
The French etymology is attested, but the sources of the Ojibwe siscowet look like folk etymology, and don't match the gloss cooks itself which should end with something like -dizo. For what its worth, i may have found the origin of the claim here, on p. 467. In a letter dated October 19, 1880, Robert Ormsby Sweeny claims that "the name 'sis-ko-wet' is an Ojibewa word, and means literally 'cooks itself.'" SteveGat (talk) 18:56, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I revised it somewhat to give the etymology I see in modern English sources, "oily-meat fish", although in a very brief search I was only able to find the first of the two claimed elements in an Ojibwe dictionary. - -sche (discuss) 04:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Thanks for doing that. I edited to add the fish meat and incorporating final elements. An even clearer source for that etymology can be found, apparently, in the 5th edition of the American Heritage dictionary. I found a reference on thefreedictionary.com, but don't have the original. That said, i find the pemitewiskawet/bemidewiskawed etymology ... fishy. Where did the bimide part go?
 * Another potential etymology would be *iskiskawed (it has "boiling-down" fish meat): isk- + i + -skaw- + -e + -d, which gets us closer to the purported "it cooks itself," but there seems to be no support for that from any authority that i can find. SteveGat (talk) 17:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

βρέμω
RFV of the etymology. The only way βρέμω could be descended from bʰrem- is if it was borrowed from some language in which bʰ became b. If it were a native inheritance it would of course begin with φ. The page Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰrem- doesn't mention this word as a descendant. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Beekes does not call it not pre-Greek, notes the comparison *bhrem, finds it irregular as well and that--barely surprising--"Therefore it is rather an onomatopoetic word". The barbar etymology--or:myth, as I'd rather say in disbelieve--suggests that br- was found overall peculiar by Greeks, understandably, if 'β-ρ' was a more gently /v-r/.

 * The entry subsumes bronte without explanation for the derivative, like we do, points to blemeaino for Homer's bremeainon and surmizes that -nt- denoted thunder, whereas the forms without t go for droning sounds in general.

<!--:: For apparent onomatopeia I compare further Geräusch, drum and trump-ette, strum (also Drempel, strumm, Strumpf--stramm, Strampler, strampeln, trampeln, zertrümmern, treten--streifen--tumble, slumber, schlendern, stromern, roam, treiben, Tauber--schleifen, sleave, loop), rum(p)sen, rammen, rumpeln, rumble, Rummel, bumsen, boom, bam-wham, bump, rülpsen "to burp", raue Stimme ~ brankos "harsh, raspy (voice)" (rau, "wie ein Reib-Eisen"?), brüllen, raunen, raunzen, rufen, rummoren "growl (of the stommach), not to be confused with rum- "(he)rum" ... I keep rambling, but that's the rap. Note, we might observe pre-Greek dr- ~ βρ- eg. for ... (I'm not re-reading all entries just to find I misremembered).!->>
 * There are a couple dozen entries under βρ-, only five of which with PIE etymology, from *gw-r- and *m-r-, two more "IE?"; the rest is loans, pre-Greek, wholy uncertain--even bra "brother" ("?")--or indeed ONOM (five times total, six if counting bronte pointing to brema, the other four are: brekekekeks "imitation of the sound of frogs"; bressein "to bleat, cough", brun in brun eipein "call for drink" of small children", also brullon hypopinon "drinking a little"; bruxaomai, perf. bebruxos "to roar, bellow"). bressein suggests r for l or d. brema is further mentioned in other entries for disambiguation, e.g. brimo "roaring" ("pre-Greek"). The crossreferences and phonologic hypothesis are overall quite many in these pages, given that uncertainty forbids simple grouping under derivatives. Next up are buon (ONOM) and byblos'' ("PG"; doubting our etymology), in the alphabetical order.

 * 109.41.3.23 01:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

mackinaw
The proposed etymology (actually for Michilimackinac) seems unsupported. A more likely one would be mishi-mikinaak (giant turtle), which is suggested here and here. See another discussion here.

Ojibwe
The reference to Outchibouec is supported, as that is how the Jesuits wrote the term. The "pucker" source also seems supported here, but without details. I can't, however, find any reference to an ethnonymic prefix at all in Ojibwe (o- can mean they or their in certain contexts), and the cook and roast morphemes don't actually fit the morphology. At the same time, jiibw- does mean pointed and jiibwegin (fold to a point, cf. pucker?) certainly is closer than what is written here. There has to be some more solid documentation of such an important word, but i haven't been able to find it. SteveGat (talk) 03:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging, who has worked with Algonquian languages. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I overhauled the etymology, giving the basic agreed-upon details first (when it entered English, and that it seems to have originally referred to just one band), and then the two most common/supported theories, that it relates either to the word for "puckering" [moccasins] or (less likely) to "writing". I added a sampling of other, less-likely / less-supported theories, picking ones I saw mentioned in multiple works; there are numerous others (e.g. some people have theorized it is connected to ). - -sche (discuss) 05:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

aid
When did aid come into any stage of English, under any spelling? It is in English in 1612 as ayde (see citation at and elsewhere) so possibly it was borrowed into Middle English. I changed the etymology to say derived from Middle French instead of borrowed from (modern) French. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 12:50, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The Online Etymology Dictionary dates the verb to ca. 1400 and the noun to the early 15th century (i.e. about the same time), so yes, I'd say it was borrowed into Middle English. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Etymology 1 has been updated. Leasnam (talk) 14:50, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Latin plurals in English
Are there any 4th declension Latin nouns in English, and if so, what is the plural? Dngweh2s (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

 * There are several,,  for two. I suspect both of these have appeared on occasion with analogical plurals "stati", "prospecti", but as far as I know the plural is "statuses" etc. Our entries show "statūs" and "prospectus" (without macron) as alternatives, but I doubt many people would understand. --ColinFine (talk) 21:53, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Substrate word in Cantonese subdialects
🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬 are from, the tone B of which corresponds to the departing tone in Chinese. Are the aforementioned words indeed Tai-Kadai substrate words? RcAlex36 (talk) 03:31, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Several Cantonese subdialects appear have a substrate word for the sense "tired" that is cognate with 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬. These are:
 * Zhongshan nai33 (in the merged 去聲 departing tone)
 * Zhuhai nai33 (in the merged 去聲 departing tone)
 * Yangjiang nɔi24 (in 陰去 dark departing tone)
 * Fengkai (Nanfeng) nœ433 (in 陰去 dark departing tone)
 * Xinxing nai44 (in 陰去 dark departing tone)
 * Mengshan (Xihe) nuai44 (in 陰去 dark departing tone)
 * It looks pretty plausible, especially with the clear tone correspondence. In terms of character choice, I can only find 苶 in 广东阳江方言研究. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I encountered this margin (blank page?) note a while back in this copy of A Vocabulary with Colloquial Phrases of the Canton Dialect:
 * Are you tired or not? nai m nai 疓唔疓 —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also appears as 疓꜅ in Williams' Tonic Dictionary. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:09, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but this means it's in 陽去 instead of 陰去.
 * True. But with all your other data, it might be a misprint. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 05:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I looked around for more. I just checked 珠江三角洲方言詞彙對照 and it writes it as 儽 (should've checked earlier). It's also used in Taishanese per this dictionary (/nai33/, in the merged 陰平+陰去 tone, no character given though). Chalmers and Dealy's English and Cantonese dictionary seems to have 陰去 under the entry for "tired": 癐𤵜哋 (and it varies with 陰平). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Is the reduplicated syllable in Cantonese 攰癩癩 (gui6 laai4 laai4) related? (or c.f. 軟癩癩?) RcAlex36 (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've thought of that as well, but I'd be conservative about connecting it with the n- words listed here. Most sources have l- in Guangdong, which would not be a perfect match. I will note that 廣州方言詞典 records gui6 laai3 laai3 as a variant. We'll have to see if older sources still record this as having l-. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:49, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As a side note, some substrate words with an n- initial seem to be pronounced with an l- now (e.g. 𨈇, 焫, 𧕴), so the evolution of 攰癩癩 would be gui6 naai3 naai3 -> gui6 laai3 laai3 -> gui6 laai4 laai4. This may just be due to 懶音 though. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's probably unreliable to look at modern speakers since the n/l merger is the norm in Hong Kong and it's probably not uncommon in Guangzhou as well. What you've proposed is a very plausible evolution except we'd need evidence for gui6 naai3 naai3. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

hunebed
I think the second paragraph is phrased rather unfortunately; the MNW gives several words for "Huns" in various languages as cognates to hune, if that is correct wouldn't huin and Hun be cognates as well? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  07:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

 * I am not sure what the question is. For one, if you follow the links through to [Kroonen 2013, *huna(n)-], there are Middle Dutch hune, with huin as descendent, as well as Middle English hune, colored blue, although we only have an entry for Middle French hune--so I'm not sure at all which hune you mean. In Kronen I only see "MDu. hune "crow's nest", neither any association to hune, huin, Hühne "giant". More over, the MNW entry you link only lists comparisons without individual etymologies, that might as well be loans, not indicating cognates in the strict sense.
 * Second, Middle Dutch post-dates the Hunni. Third, the varying semantics make for a rather puzzling reconstruction, so the question is a lot deeper than your short inquiry leads on, not the least because of the importance of dolmen and burial mounds for comparative pre-history. Last but not least, a PIE root glossed "swelling" will always be subject to interpretation in context (followed shortly by "to cut", or "shine", but paling in comparison to the dozens of Sami words for snow).
 * While perusing Kronen, I incidently stumbled over *hlaiw- "barrow, funeral mound". Several detours later about superficially similar roots I concluded slightly manic:
 * ... I found *hunsla- n. "sacrifice" to be notable, with hlaw back in mind (...)--Kronen sees a *sla*-suffix, however, and a root *k'uent- (cf. e.g. Lith. sventas, SCr. svet "sacred, holy", modulo diacrits), which incidently is formally equivalent to *k'uent-o > *hwinda- "greyhound" (cf. Ger. Windhund, cp. *hunda- "dog", *kuon-, or *kwon in our formalism), which reminds a little of *hruthjan- "male dog" (cf. e.g. Ger. Rüde) specificly because "Also cf. OE hroth-hund 'big dog, molossus'"--I'd emphasise "big".
 * The quint-essence of this is that the interpretation hunebed "a giant's bed" appeared dubious to me, initially, and it still is, but ...
 * Alas, I cannot fathom any rebuttal. We have *hunaz- from *kewH-, which is formally at least similar in either the athematic aorist *kuh1-ent, or the s-stativ (?) with *-no- (?), *kuh1-no-s, where *huna- is listed red-linked and with a question mark, followed by some of the expected reflexes (q.v.). Interestingly, rather for *hunsla it was remarked that "It is unclear whether this root was adjectival or verbal in PIE, but in Germanic, the sla-suffix is usually added to verbal stems, ..." with reference to *swim*-words, which in my mind only adds to the confusion, not only because *swimming* is inherently ambiguous as participle or gerund, regardless of the comparison to "Go. swum(f)sl n. 'pool' < *swum-sla", but also because *-sal is down for water words, cp. Ger. Rinnsal, Gerinnsel, so that a more important suggestion to compare sven- above might have been implied (glossing myself, cp.: verschwimmen "to blur", schwammig "imprecise, soft; spongiform", versus schwinden "to weaken, fade, disappear", verschwenden "to waste", *(s)mer- "to disappear, die", perhaps *(s)neh2- "to swim", *neh2- "ship", cf. navis, Ger. Nussschale "small boat, one master; nut-shell"). 109.41.0.15 21:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Can anyone make sense of ^that^ or should I just hat/collapse it? Is it the user who liked to point at random similarities (or another user in that vein)? - -sche (discuss) 18:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you think random here. *kwen- and *k'ewH- should be invariant for *hun- and the former matches semantically a lot better. This is at least tangentially relevant for the Huns, even if I mostly missed what the question was about. There's certainly been some excess, but the system identified attempts at redaction as possibly malicious. All IP-posts in the last weeks are mine, btw. 109.41.3.25 01:37, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

heft (Old Norse)
Should the sheep-related senses of heft (noun and verb) go under a different ety section from the weight-related senses? According to, the etymology of the sheep-related sense is 'Old Norse vb. Heftda (inf.) Heftdadra (past) “…acquired by right or prescription.”)'. My Old Norse is, erm, limited. Is this heftda related or unrelated to the old Norse hefð that we currently list as the global origin of heft? Mihia (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Moved to Etymology 2. Leasnam (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for looking at that and sorting it out. Mihia (talk) 00:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The mystery of the missing *-w-: Proto-Germanic ,
Wondering about this:
 * *Auziwandilaz yields forms with -w-, as in ON Aurvandil, Lombardic Auriwandalo, but contrast OE Earendel, OHG Orentil and, perhaps most puzzlingly, Gothic auzandil.
 * *Audawakraz yields forms with -w-, as in OE Eadwacer, but contrast OHG Otacher.

Am I missing something, is there some logic to this? Why the seeming inconsistency? Especially when comparing the Old English Earendel and Eadwacer, it seems arbitrary. If anyone knows any similar examples in which PGmc intervocalic -w- disappears without any apparent trace, I would be interested.

(An additional problem in interpreting these is that most of them are difficult-ish to reconstruct PGmc proper nouns, and not all descendants linked to them here may in fact belong to them; for example, the source of the name Odoacer is in fact disputed, and OHG Otacher refers to this historical figure in all its attestations and may represent an early borrowing.) — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:18, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Братислава
Almost every entry on this page is listed as being borrowed directly from Slovak, which I think is extremely unlikely. I think a lot of them are rather borrowed from Russian or should be listed as ultimately from Slovak. I also think it is worth noting that this occurred in a. Thoughts? İʟᴀᴡᴀ–Kᴀᴛᴀᴋᴀ (talk) (edits) 16:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Anamoose
The etymology as a female dog seems very popular on the internet (spelled uhnemoosh). However, i can't find an authoritative source that specifies female. animosh definitely means dog, at least. SteveGat (talk) 18:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

tabiya (chess jargon)
This chess jargon is still in use in its source language, Arabic, which easies things. Current version wrongly says: Etymology: From Arabic (ṭabīʿa, “normal manner”). But the Arabic for tabiya is تعبية taʿbiyya, also تعبئة taʿbi'a (root عبي). It's the nominalization of a verb meaning, apart from chess use:

 * Set in order, dispose or arrange the army in their places (Edward Willian Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon).
 * To set troops in order (Francis Joseph Steingass)
 * وَعَبَّى الجَيْشِ .. أَصْلَحَهُ وَهَيَّأَهُ تَعْبِيَةً وَتَعْبِئَةً وَبَعْبِيئاً (Lisān al-ʿArab, Ibn Manzur).

It's also worth noting that ancient Arab chess rules differed a bit from those of today's chess, e.g. queen and rooks had a shorter reach, so both sides or armies deployed their units thus adopting a taʿbi'a (تعبئة ) before they could threaten or capture a piece.

For a fast look of current use of taʿbi'a / تعبئة as a chess jargon: (search engine results in Arabic).

--Pablo Tornielli (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The jargon still bein in use does not necessarily ease things, this might be an etymologic fallacy. It might even complicate things, if it had two etymologies. What's your source to say tabi'a was "wrong"--mere disbelieve? Or is it formally impossible so as to be not convincing? Personally, I wonder if it could be from Sumero-Akkadian, e.g. DUB, tabbu "tablet", DIB "board", A(N) "house" [ePSD]--and it would be easy to poke holes in this to incure doubt, because I'm no syriologist. Chess is from Persian, anyhow.
 * Unless you are absolutely certain, it would be better to add both, letting ambiguity show uncertainty, preferably instead of having one over the other without an argument or solid references. You might think it's obviously a mishearing from a foreign speaker, but, since Arabic is full of dialects, the same argument would hold there, too. The super convincing glosses by Lane might be later, couldn't it be?
 * The type of opening played is rather important, still.
 * A search for "تعبئة" finds twofold: [ع ب و], but "arrange" rather under [عبأ] (root: "ع ب ء"), the latter agreeing formall with Maltese [tagħbija] though semantics seem difficult (perhaps charge?) and we translate [mobilization] "تَعْبِئَةٌ f (taʿbiʾatun)". Essentially this only leaves " -b- " (as my browser lacking font support renders it anyway), which is amazing in light of PIE *bhu- "become, grow", cf. physis, inviting further consideration for ṭabīʿa "nature", cp. genesis "beginning, creation" from the same root as nature.

 * What's your source to say tabi'a is wrong?
 * In the first place, the complete absence of references linking tabiya with ṭabīʿa (طبيعة). Current version fails to give any evidence whatsoever about the use of ṭabīʿa in Arabic chess jargon, in any era. On the other side, taʿbi'a (تعبئة) does appear in ancient Arabic chess manuscripts (e.g. this one) with a related meaning and in the same context.

 * The glosses by Lane might be later?
 * Not really, since his Arabic-English Lexicon lies on classical, medieval texts and dictionaries. Also, take a look at my other quotations, particularly Lisān al-ʿArab (ca. 1290 AD).

 * Arabic is full of dialects
 * Both ṭabīʿa and taʿbi'a belong to the fuṣḥā lexicon.

 * Chess is from Persian, anyhow.
 * The word chess? Perhaps. The game is from India and went through Persia and the Arab world before reaching Europe. It keeps etymologycal traces of that long travel.
 * --Pablo Tornielli (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you want to support the etymology from ṭabīʿa, and perhaps the Arabic etymon in a chess context, with a reference or citation? Otherwise I don't think anyone will object to an update. The history of chess is only roughly known, by the way. The de.WP alleges reformation of rules in the 15th century, possibly in Spain--which would be one plausible avenue for Arabic into the jargon, and from quite a different dialect, with other semitic scribes active in the cultural sphere--who knows what they thought it meant? I'm not sure if that's important for the general history, but any comparison to Hebrew as a general example might be worthwhile for the individual lemmas. de.WP further alleges presence in Europe at the latest in the 13th CE, but no route. 109.41.3.133 18:43, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Stephen G. Brown may no longer be with us in the land of the living, so he is not in a position to support or not support it. He has been missing for over a year, unfortunately. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 02:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Saipan
Etymology of Saipan?
 * ✅ to the best of my ability. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

universitas
The descendants could really use some restructuring. Also, we have both and  as Old French lemmas, and I'm not sure which should be the main form. I recently added rfe to because of this. Ultimateria (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

talkkuna
Early revisions of that page, sensibly, derived it directly from Proto-Slavic *tolkъno. At present, there is an absurd claim that this word is derived from modern Russian толокно. Any sources for that claim?
 * It's not directly from either of those two, it's an Old East Slavic borrowing. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 13:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * One of the cases from Proto-Slavic proper actually; note the retention of -lk-. --Tropylium (talk) 02:27, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

loan
If lān was an alternative form of lǣn in Old English, what makes us so sure that Modern English loan doesn't derive from that alternative form, or partially derive from it? Is it because the verb lǣnan produced lend? Tharthan (talk) 16:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The Old English alternative form was only ever found in the compound, itself a rare variant (occurring just once) of . Leasnam (talk) 02:51, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I see. So it is nigh impossible that it had any influence. Thanks for clearing that up. Tharthan (talk) 06:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The IPA for the continuation of the Old Norse word, where given, is rather telling, too, e.g. Faroese /lɔɑːn/. 109.41.3.25 07:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Although, how do you explain the Middle English variants lane and lone; is it reasonable to suggest a hard devide, if a more difficult process could take place, in case the variants suggest shifting sounds; specifically, is replacement (which we often suggest in other entries) strictly implied??? . 109.41.3.25 13:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

firmament
Does anyone have an idea of what the Classical Syriac word akin to, from the root referred to in the etymology of  might be? — SGconlaw (talk) 18:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Think I figured it out, as there was a Classical Syriac entry linked to the English one: it appears to be, from the root (“relating to compacting”). If someone could provide a transliteration of the Syriac word that would be great. — SGconlaw (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The entry has “rəqīʿā”. Is that not what you are looking for? --Lambiam 21:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I added that after updated the etymology at . — SGconlaw (talk) 21:55, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Is -iškas an assumption?
I am skeptical of Reconstruction talk:Proto-Balto-Slavic/-iškas and Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/-ьskъ.
 * 1) assuming /š/ in the older form is from the ruki sound law, why did ruki occur in the first place given that it wasnt following one of /r w k j/? /i/ is not /j/ and does not trigger the sound law.
 * 2) Why would it have /sk/ in Slavic and /šk/ in Baltic? that doesnt seem to match what appears on Wikipedia for Slavic sound changes, which suggests the required /š/ > /s/ sound  change only occurs when a vowel immediately follows.  Our reconstruction has the cluster going back to PIE, with no disappearing yer.
 * 3) also, the traditional proto-Slavic form ends in a back yer, ŭ. why not an /a/-like vowel? is it grammatical analogy?

Thanks, — Soap — 21:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * RUKI rule does apply after syllabic i and u as well, e.g. from.
 * I don't know for sure, but since PBS *š normally becomes PSl. *x when it isn't palatalized, I can believe that *xk would have been too uncomfortable a consonant cluster, so that in that environment *š reverted to *s instead.
 * This question doesn't apply only to this suffix. All masculine o-stems, both nouns and adjectives, end in ъ, which is not expected as a reflex of PIE *-os and PBS *-as. Various people have proposed various explanations for this; I think the most popular theory is that ъ spread from the u-stems. —Mahāgaja · talk 22:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I cant accept that as the final answer .... if the sound change took place after full vowels, w:Ruki sound law needs to be corrected to say so ... and wouldnt that have led to all sorts of symptoms, like word-final -iš and -uš, which would not have contrasted with -is and -us? The only way I can see to fit -iskos into this pattern is to assume that it sometimes appeared after vowels, which is fair, but we're out on a limb there, which is what I mean by my original question .... of whether this reconstruction is simply an assumption on our part, not something described previously by scholars such as Holger Pedersen, etc. Thanks, — Soap — 07:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right; I've edited the Wikipedia article to indicate it happens after the syllabic allophones of *r, *w, and *y as well. The article does say as well that RUKI doesn't happen before consonants in Slavic. And in Proto-Indo-Iranian, nonneuter i-stems and u-stems are indeed reconstructed as ending in *-iš and *-uš. In PBS, on the other hand, our reconstructions do show *-is and *-us, so maybe the "not before consonants" rule should be expanded to "not in syllable-final (coda) position". I don't know much at all about PBS, though, so I don't know if that would have undesirable repercussions elsewhere in the system. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay thank you. My real issue here is that I dont believe PIE had plain velars, and so I am trying to tear down the etymologies of any reconstructed word that relies on them .... so in this case, my goal was to show that Balto-Slavic languages must have loaned the morpheme from proto-Germanic or even from Greek at a later date.  But I didnt use that as one of my three points because it woukd have been a circular argument.  So I'm satisfied now that this etymology is solidly reconstructed.   Perhaps PIE /skʲ/ simply behaved as /sk/ all along and that makes this idea moot.  But Im glad I was able to contribute something helpful indirectly by bringing the mistake on the Wikipedia article to light. Thanks, — Soap — 10:30, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think reconstructing three velar series for the latest stage of PIE is pretty unavoidable, but it's not implausible that the plain velar series is later and comes partly from a phonemic merger of positional allophones of the palatal and labiovelar series and partly from analogy/paradigm leveling. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

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