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User talk:Hekaheka/Archive 2015 2017

crown
I think the sense you edited was meant to be a metaphorical sense. Webster has "A wreath or garland, or any ornamental fillet encircling the head, especially as a reward of victory or mark of honorable distinction; hence, anything given on account of, or obtained by, faithful or successful effort; a reward." Equinox ◑ 21:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. I failed to check Webster. But, as this sense is derived from the "wreath" -sense I moved it to the fourth place on the list of definitions, right after "wreath". --Hekaheka (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

vyösyöttöinen
I've been working on Special:WantedCategories, and I'm always reluctant to create affix categories in languages I don't know, because it's usually very tricky telling real affixes from independent words or coincidental combinations of other morphemes. This term is categorizing to the redlinked Category:Finnish words suffixed with -syöttöinen. The suffix in question looks to me like a verb with a nominalizing suffix- should the combination be considered a suffix in its own right? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This term, and many others like it, are a challenge for classifiers. It's derived from the verb >  + . It is never used alone, but always as headword in a compound adjective. Yet, it isn't a suffix, but rather an adjective. Then, should it be listed in Wiktionary under -syöttöinen, or syöttöinen? In current Kotus net dictionary the former is used and in another, only a few years old wordlist it was the latter. In similar cases I have written the main entry under the unhyphenated form and a soft redirect under the hyphenated form. How's that for a policy? --Hekaheka (talk) 07:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

vaata
Heips; kumosit muokkaukseni kommentilla ”alternative spelling is "vaa'ata", not "va'ata"”. Kyseessä on kuitenkin kaksi eri sanaa: 'Vaakaaminen' (”levelling”) on eri asia kuin 'vakaaminen' (”stabilizing”), joka sanana on 'vaata'-verbin neljäs infinitiivi. --Pänikkä (talk) 11:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Joku taisi tosiaan mennä väärin, mutta lähtökohtakaan ei ollut ihan oikein: vaata -sanassa ei nimittäin ole keskellä heittomerkkiä, eihän? --Hekaheka (talk) 20:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Asia näyttää olevan vähän monimutkaisempi. NSK:n mukaan "vaata" tarkoittaa "tarkastaa mittaus- tai punnitusväline ja varustaa se leimalla, kruunata". Mutta myös sanojen "vaa'ata" ja "vaaita" kakkosmerkitys on sama. Lisäksi "vaaita" tarkoittaa korkeussuhteiden mittaamista vesivaa'alla ja "vaa'ata" tarkoittaa vaa'alla punnitsemista, joskin se merkitys on harvinainen. "Vaata" ja "vaa'ata" tarkoittavatkin siis samaa. Kävi vähän niinkuin Väyryselle: "Uskoin kerran olevani väärässä, mutta sitten huomasin erehtyneeni".--Hekaheka (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Vaata on silti eri vartalosta johdettu kuin vaa'ata, ja ääntämykseltäänkin erilainen, joten niitä ei voi väittää pelkiksi oikeinkirjoitusvarianteiksi. Tämä rinnastuu paremmin sellaisiin tapauksiin kuin pöllö vs. pölhö tai kuljeksia vs. kuljeskella: täytyy Wiktionaryn systeemien mukaan pistää vain synonyymeiksi. (Kannattaa myös huomata, että sanojen, perusmerkitys on lähinnä 'rauhallinen, luotettava', ei suinkaan 'horisontaalinen, tasainen', joten semanttisesti tämä johdos on kyllä varmaan ottanut vaikutusta vaaka-sanueesta. Muutenhan odottaisi, että vaata = jotain tyyliin 'rauhoitella, laannuttaa, tuutia'?) --Tropylium (talk) 18:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Finnish nominal inflection types
I've been looking at these more closely in order to understand Finnish inflection better and write more in an appendix about it. I noticed some strange things though, that I hope maybe you can help with.

The appendix pages at Appendix:Finnish nominal inflection/kala and Appendix:Finnish nominal inflection/koira state that these are both used for two-syllable nouns, and that the choice depends on what vowels are in the first syllable. But in the categories for these two types, there are many words of 3 or more syllables (and are not compounds; the inflectional base stem is really 3+ syllables). For example, in the kala category there is, and many others with an -nta suffix, while the koira category has even more. The appendix also says that kala type nouns have a, e or i in the first syllable, but then there are, and  to name a few. The koira type, which should have nouns with o or u, has.

Similar things apply to the Appendix:Finnish nominal inflection/risti and Appendix:Finnish nominal inflection/paperi pages. These should have 2 and 3+ syllables respectively according to the descriptions, but in the risti category there are more words with 3+ syllabes than there are words with 2 syllables. What determines the difference between these if it's not the number of syllables?

So I'm wondering, do the descriptions as they are given in the appendixes even make sense? Should they be changed, and to what? —CodeCat 01:25, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The appendixes were originally written by the user KJBracey, and he might be able to explain why he has written what he has written. I know that NSK recognizes more inflection classes than the 50 years newer Kotus. I guess this reflects the natural development of the language. As you know the Finnish grammar is quite complicated and some rarely used features are gradually being shaded away. My quick theory is that class kala used to be reserved for two-syllable words only, because the 3-syllable words now in that class had some minor differences in inflection. I cannot check my NSK now because I'm in Rome, but at least there has been the genitive plural vihantien. Interestingly, this form has been preserved in the word which is now in koira -class. Also, I believe the editors of Wiktionary have cut some corners here and there dropping out some very uncommon inflections from the inflection tables. I strongly suggest you consult user Tropylium in this matter as he is a linguist by education and I'm just an eager amateur. --Hekaheka (talk) 01:59, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Userpage
Hi, Hekaheka, just wanted to inform your userpage is in a mess. Lotje (talk) 15:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Mess" is a question of point of view. I have just stored there some stuff that helps me remember certain things. Others are not supposed to find it meaningful. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

pöpinä
The edits by this IP are clearly at least wrong, with clashing pos between the pos header and the headword line, but I have no clue what "right" would be for this entry. There's a similar pos issue with their edit to pöpi, but I'm not sure whether the definition or the pos needs to be changed. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * POS was wrong, but the text was on right track as a whole. I fixed the details. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

-kielisyys
Is this really a distinct suffix? It seems to me that all the nouns using it are just nouns with -kielinen that had -uus added to them. —CodeCat 17:23, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it's not a suffix. That's why I have entered it as a noun. The reason I entered it hyphenated is that it is never used alone, i.e. without a modifier. You may have noted that I also added kielisyys with its only content being a link to -kielisyys. The question is good, however. I was just pondering, whether I should similarly move the content of kielinen to -kielinen, but then decided not to do it, because kielinen may be used independently in questions. However, for the sake of logic, I should probably add -kielinen and soft-redirect it to kielinen. There are many other similar adjectives and nouns, and I bet there's no logic at all in how they are currently presented in hyphenated or un-hyphenated form. I guess we would need a policy that should be discussed on a proper forum, whatever it is. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Another noteworthy point is that Kotus lists -kielisyys in their web dictionary, but not kielisyys. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that the process actually goes like this. First you start with for example and . These are then joined into  as one single step; so it's directly formed as  +  + . From there, the suffix  is added, giving . If you see it this way, then there are no suffixes like, nor unused words like . Similar things happen in other languages too, like in English for example.  is  +  + . There is no intermediate step like  or . I see that we do have an entry for , but that doesn't make sense in English anymore than  does in Finnish. —CodeCat 18:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There are loads of these, like tonguedness. Believe me, we need a policy discussion, not your hallmark Amoklauf. I find it quite arrogant that you think you are better to judge what is disctionary-worthy in Finnish than all the experts of Kotus put together. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

iloisa and iloinen
Hi Hekaheka. I hope you're OK with ; if you prefer the original wording, may I suggest you use the coding  ? That way, you get the intended default display, but the bits of text are properly marked to ensure that the displayed text will also be correct for users who have opted for non-default display schemes. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 13:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

 * No complaint, except that I tagged it "rare". --Hekaheka (talk) 08:09, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Aye, I noticed. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't annoying you by interfering with Finnish entries. :-)  — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Kirjaamo
I added kirjaamo with the definition registrar. Does that seem right? ~ heyzeuss 10:27, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

vaihteluväli
You wrote on my discussion page (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_talk:88.112.130.243) that /ç/ is a Finnish phoneme according to http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/fon.html unlike I had written in the edit comment on vaihteluväli. That page doesn't say that /ç/ is a phoneme, but it is indeed an allophone of /h/. See the explanation on my discussion page. 88.112.130.243 10:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Form
I added a definition to form: A specific way of performing a movement. The subject in question is sports and fitness, as in, ''Nykänen really has got great form, Bob. He's going to fly far!'' Is there any equivalent word in Finnish? ~ heyzeuss 07:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say that the best equivalent is tyyli as in V-tyyli. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Showing principal forms of inflections when tables are collapsed
I recently added a feature to show the principal forms (the forms that allow you to derive all the others) for Dutch verbs and adjectives when the inflection table is collapsed. See for example and. I'm quite pleased with this, and I wondered if the same could be done for Finnish. I made a draft: User:CodeCat/vsExample. For nominals only 7 forms are needed, the rest can be predicted from this. The nominative plural is not technically needed as it's derived from the genitive singular, but there was space for it in the table, and plurale tantum nouns don't have singular forms anyway. Rare forms are not shown when the table is collapsed. Tell me what you think? —CodeCat 20:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * In principle this is doable. The #1 authority in Finnish, Kotus uses the same four cases for presenting Finnish declensions (see any noun in their online dictionary at http://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi) and so did already NSK. On the other hand, Wiktionary's established practice seems to be to keep collapsed tables really collapsed. I can imagine that in multiple language entries this night even become an issue, as the entries would grow considerably longer than they currently are - assuming, of course that similar presentations were developed for all inflected languages. All in all, I think this should be discussed on Wiktionary's policy forum. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's still equivalent to four lines of text, more or less. That's the same as if there were four more definitions. I don't see how the length of the entries becomes a problem with such a small table. Compare also the Latin noun and adjective entries, which have uncollapsible (!) tables with 7 rows or more. Irish entries also have a whole extra section with a table for mutations, also not collapsed. So I think there's plenty of precedent for small tables in entries, it's only the larger ones that need collapsing. —CodeCat 20:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

yli
In [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=yli&type=revision&diff=28992586&oldid=23748721 diff], a user has questioned the usage note. Can you judge whether it's accurate or not? - -sche (discuss) 06:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say the correction is correct. The whole existence of accusative in Finnish is disputed. Depending on theory, the case of total object (as opposed to partial object which is always in partitive) is regarded as either accusative (which takes the form of either genitive or nominative, see genitive-accusative) or plain genitive or nominative - or accusative in the case of personal pronouns, which are the only Finnish words that have a distinct accusative form (the forms minut, sinut, hänet, meidät, teidät, heidät and kenet). In Wiktionary we have adopted the point-of-view that accusative exists, but in this case I see no object, and therefore genitive appears a more likely interpretation. --Hekaheka (talk) 11:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * It's very easy to see whether a case is accusative or genitive: just make it plural. If you end up with the genitive plural, then you're dealing with the actual genitive, while if you get the nominative plural, then you have the accusative. This is also the main argument I see for treating the accusative as a separate case. (And of course historically, the cases actually did have different forms, they just became identical by coincidence). —CodeCat 11:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * In this particular example this rule does not work, because there's no actual plural for "vartin yli". However, in more concrete contexts "yli" requires a genitive: "tien yli - teiden yli". --Hekaheka (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

llex?
many Finnish nominals are giving llex as the allative ending. I traced the cause to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Module:fi-nominals

it is a protected page so I cannot change it. You are an active editor and I hope you can get it fixed.

sorry to trouble you but this is affecting all the Finnish nominals across Wiktionary and I hope you can fix it or get it fixed.

thx 87.92.144.103

Please, please, remove the small x'es. Besides you and me, nobody understands them, and they are causing confusion. I have discussed this with other active Finnish contributors, and they agree with me. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:29, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

 * "Besides you and me and me nobody understands them" Can you explain the x to me?  Because in this world it seems that only you and the editor that you contacted seems to know what the x refers to.  BTW the editor you contacted has not removed the x .... s/he has merely superscripted the x which still does not help. Finnish does not have superscripted letters with any lexical meaning.
 * I went to codecat's discussion page and figured the answer. Thanks for intervening. I have asked him myself to remove it. No need for you to reply

Righteousness
I added vanhurskaus as a translation to all of the senses of righteousness. Please have a look. ~ heyzeuss 11:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, it's correct. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

seinähirsi
... Ei taivu “seinähirseä”, “seinähirristä” tms. Muutin nyt deklinaation 7 -> 28. Varmista, että tällaiset vahingot jäisivät vähäisiksi!--85.76.54.251 12:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No juu, jos tekee yli 100.000 editointia, niin joku menee väkisinkin väärin. Ei muuten mennyt ihan putkeen korjaukset artikkeleihin fileointiveitsi ja fileerausveitsi sinullakaan! Eiköhän jatketa ihan sopuisasti inimillisiä mokauksia ymmärtäen. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

itse
I added a request for an inflection table to this entry, but I get the feeling that the use of this term is a bit more complicated than can be put in a table. I've been working on Northern Sami entries and grammar a lot lately, and its equivalent of is. It seems to work this way:

 * The bare word is used only in the nominative form, and has dual and plural forms. It's used to strengthen the subject of the sentence only, like in I do it myself or you yourself have seen it.
 * In all other cases, a possessive suffix is required, and this suffix must match the subject. So non-nominative forms without a case suffix don't exist, while nominative forms with a case suffix don't exist either.

Is the situation in Finnish anything like this? It probably should be explained in the entry. We already have entries for, and so on, so the definitions at  should probably limited to only the forms without any possessive suffix. —CodeCat 18:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Box-bed
What is the translation of box-bed in Finnish? ~ heyzeuss 15:12, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a Finnish word for it. I have never seen a piece of furniture like that. This comes close, but it's called "vuodekaappi" because it's a bunk bed combined with a cupboard with the lower bed equipped with a curtain. This  thing is cited as "sänkykaappi", but again, it's not quite the same, but a baby's bed furnished in a chest of drawers. Kaappivuode or kaappisänky came first into my mind, but these words seem to be used chiefly of a bed which folds into a box when not used for sleeping . Vuodekomero is synonymous to  and komerovuode doesn't seem to exist. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:13, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I have never seen that piece of furniture either. :D I was mainly interested in the more traditional Scandinavian built-in beds that have curtains. They seem to be especially common in old farm houses that lack bedrooms. ~ heyzeuss 18:44, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Parahiksi
Is parahiksi dialectical? It does not seem to be an inflected form of paras or parahin. ~ heyzeuss 02:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Created an entry for it. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks. ~ heyzeuss 06:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Lähiaika
Am I correct in assuming that lähiaika means recent past or near future? ~ heyzeuss 07:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It is sometimes used that way, but "recent past" is regarded as nonstandard. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:18, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Miltei
Is miltei somehow related to miltä ei? ~ heyzeuss 13:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No, miltei means lähes ("almost"). --Hekaheka (talk) 13:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * On the second thought, if miltä ei were contracted it would become miltei, but I cannot explain the conversion of the meaning logically. Perhaps there's an intermediate step which I'm not aware of. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

kumajaa vs muistaa
I noticed that has its own inflection table, which a few entries use. But are these not just part of the type? If not, what is the difference? —CodeCat 20:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It is more complicated than that. Our current treatment of this type seems to be incorrect. Both authoritative sources that I have access to, i.e. and the net version of Kielitoimiston sanakirja  treat kumajaa as an archaic/dialectal/poetic form of the verb kumista. According to them the form only exists in some moods and persons, but they do not fully agree in which ones. Finnish Wiktionary  offers a third approach. This type of variant exists for a limited number of rohkaista-type verbs. the following come quickly  into my mind:
 * helistä > heläjää
 * humista > humajaa
 * kihistä > kihajaa
 * kumista > kumajaa
 * täristä > täräjää
 * vipistä > vipajaa
 * väristä > väräjää
 * This sort of forms are more common in Ostrobothnian dialects than elsewhere. According to this source for example these exist in local dialects:
 * jyristä > jyräjää
 * järistä > järäjää
 * kolista > kolajaa
 * Also some salata-type verbs have similar forms:
 * halata > halajaa
 * palata > palajaa
 * In Ostrobothnia also:
 * tomuta > tomajaa
 * I was once thinking of creating a variant of rohkaista -type conjugation which would only display the actually used kumajaa -type variations along with the ordinary conjugation, but then you made the currently existing LUA table and I felt lacking the programming skills needed to continue with my idea. Now, I just realized that the separate kumajaa template still exists. I could edit it according to my original idea and then you could include it into your LUA table. Does that sound like a plan? --Hekaheka (talk) 08:53, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It would also be possible to add parameters to the templates, which tell the table to display only 3rd person forms. Something like . For impersonal verbs, the same parameter could be used. That way, you don't need entirely separate conjugation types, since it appears that as far as the forms themselves go,  is straightforwardly of the  type, just with forms missing. So you'd use: . If it doesn't work that way, then your proposal seems ok. —CodeCat 12:54, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It might really be a better idea to keep kumista and kumajaa in separate entries, because the latter is much rarer and chiefly used in a different context. If both forms are side by side in the same table, an occasional user might think that they are interchangeable, which they are not. One can almost always substitute kumista for kumajaa but not vice versa, at least not without risk of sounding funny. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:17, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't proposing to put them in the same entry. —CodeCat 14:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No, you weren't. I was, but am not anymore. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Here's as it could look like: humajaa. Only the table needs to be made collapsible. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is to add a usage note as I just did in kumajaa. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

When fourth infinitive is the same as a noun
As far as I know, the Finnish fourth infinitive is essentially a verbal noun that indicates the action itself. Sometimes, though, there may also be another noun with the same form. I am wondering how this is handled for Finnish. Are separate entries given for each of them, or do they get combined? —CodeCat 20:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If I have felt that a noun entry would be useful - which it is especially when there is an English translation which cannot be derived from the verb - I have written a separate section for the noun, just as is done in the English entries. See e.g. "boiling", which is presented as verb, noun, adjective amd adverb. --Hekaheka (talk) 02:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Can you create these entries?
I found a Northern Sami-to-Finnish word list, that I'd like to use as a base to create more Sami entries. But quite a few of the Finnish words used in the translations are red links themselves. Could you have a look and fill in what you can? It would help me a lot, and of course Wiktionary's coverage of Finnish too. You can skip non-lemma forms for now, since I know enough Finnish grammar to decypher these in most cases. Here is the list: User:CodeCat/se-fi The page is rather long, so it loads a bit slow. —CodeCat 21:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It will take some time. Where is the list from? There seem to be typing errors and "funny" expressions. Most of the stuff seems good, though. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It came from here: http://www.arcticphotos.hol.es/satnegirji/admin/sanit.php —CodeCat 13:47, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The pages are maintained by Tarja Länsman, who lives in Utsjoki in the northmost tip of Finland. Länsman is a local Sami family name, so the Sami part is likely to be correct. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I created, so that might help you find the Finnish equivalent. It's a simple agent noun, the in Northern Sami is cognate with the Finnish . —CodeCat 23:33, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * To "use" is käyttää in Finnish, and thus the agent noun would be käyttäjä. Käytteliäs on the other hand - if it existed - would be an adjective and in that case käyttävä would seem to be more correct. I checked a bit more about Tarja Länsman's background. She seems to be a teacher, photographer and Sami activist. If you are really interested in editing Northern Sami, you might get a good companion of her. Her e-mail is tarja.lansman@gmail.com. My knowledge of Northern Sami is close to zero, so I can really comment only the Finnish part. Btw I added a comment on "helppo" on the discussion page of your project page. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:50, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, in Northern Sami, has become the suffix of the present participle as well, so both are possible. Also, just to note, I split definitions with multiple words into individual links on the page. If you think that the combination is idiomatic, you can change the linking. I think this needs to be done with, I can't figure out what it means from the words separately. —CodeCat 00:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

virkkaa
I created an inflection table for this verb, to show the irregular swapping of front and back vowel harmony. If there are any other words with weird irregularities that are not currently shown in the tables, please let me know and I'll see if I can fix it. —CodeCat 20:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, this is the only one. One comment: I don't think type "muistaa" needs to be mentioned in the table header. This is just a "kaivaa" verb with irregular vowel harmony. Btw, there's also a parallel back-vowel harmony inflection. Both find usage both in straight Google search and GoogleBooks search, front-vowel harmony being 2-3 times as frequently used as the back-vowel harmony. The duality is recognized e.g. in this document. It contains detailed guidelines for Univerisy of Helsinki students who are involved in collecting vocabulary for the needs of dialect research. Guideline #205 points out that the students need to find out which vowel harmony of the verb "virkkaa" is used in the particular dialect that is under study.--Hekaheka (talk) 05:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * While we are at it, there's also a parallel 3rd person singular past indicative form "virkki" (vs. "virkkoi"). It is the form used in Kalevala and also Kielitoimiston sanakirja recognizes it as outdated. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Kuorteen
Is the illative ending -rteen common for pieni-type words like vuori and kuori?
 * No, it isn't. To me, "Kuorteen" does not sound Finnish at all. Where did you pick it up? If anything, it could be genitive singular form of "Kuorre", but I don't know that word. There are placenames Kuorresalmi, Kuorreapaja and possibly others. Perhaps they are derived from . --Hekaheka (talk) 17:45, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

-ua or -tua?
I'm looking at the sanoa-type verbs now, and something struck me as odd. is said to derive from, and my first thought was that it was derived with the suffix. But there's also an extra -t- in there which can't really be explained that way. Then there's, which could derive from , except here one of the -t- goes missing instead. It can't be gradation as the suffix doesn't trigger a weak grade.

So now I am wondering, is there a separate, but related suffix, which both of these have been derived with? —CodeCat 19:03, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Dropping by: yes, is a separate suffix of its own. Cf. also e.g.  (← ),  (← ). --Tropylium (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I didn't want to bother you with more questions, so I asked Heka instead. —CodeCat 00:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Tropylium. But aren't they used more or less the same way, i.e. meaning the same? Why not treat them as allomorphs? The choice between -ua and -tua depends primarily of the form of the stem, or am I all wrong? --Hekaheka (talk) 00:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And what about -utua (e.g. ajaa, ajautua? Is it a separate suffix as well? As you can see, Finnish verb formation is a mystery to me and I'm better in giving questions than answers. Thus, CodeCat, if you want someone who knows, keep asking Tropylium;-) --Hekaheka (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The entry for -utua treats -ua, -tua, -ntua and -utua as synonyms. --Hekaheka (talk) 01:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

 * Per Special:WantedPages, 166 entries like to -tua; should it be created as an altform of -utua? - -sche (discuss) 20:59, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Yhdeksäskymmenesyhdeksäs itsenäisyyspäivä
Could you say in Finnish that today is the 99th Independence Day of Finland? "Tänään on Suomen yhdeksäskymmenesyhdeksäs itsenäisyyspäivä". ~ heyzeuss 20:49, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it's 98th (yhdeksäskymmeneskahdeksas), isn't it? Finland got its independency in 1917. But yes, next year on December 6th, you could say "Tänään on Suomen yhdeksäskymmenesyhdeksäs itsenäisyyspäivä". Note also the spelling of "itsenäisyys" - only one "n"! --Hekaheka (talk) 19:53, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I was thinking that if you count the day that Finland declared independence as the first Independence Day, then today is the 99th Independence Day. Maybe I'm overthinking it, since we don't really do that for birthdays in English. If I am turning ten years old, then I would still just say that it is my tenth birthday. Here's a good discussion on the subject of a first birthday on StackExchange. Also see the etymology of birthday at Online Etymology Dictionary, which gives "from Old English byrddæg, anniversary celebration of someone's birth". I would then count Independence Days in the same way, including only anniversaries, and I might do the same for the Finnish word itsenäisyyspäivä. ~ heyzeuss 21:45, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

-nut, -ttu
We're currently missing entries for these rather important Finnish suffixes/endings. Could you create them? Maybe we also need -ttava. —CodeCat 20:47, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I have a problem: I'm not sure which entry or entries to create. I'd say that -nut should or at least could be classified as form of -ut together with -lut, -rut and -sut. In addition there are the front vowel variants -yt, -nyt, -lyt, -ryt and -syt. One example of each of these: ''kuollut, purrut, juossut, tehnyt, niellyt, pierryt, päässyt.
 * Another approach could be to say that there are two suffixes -nut/-nyt and -ut/-yt and the choice between them depends on the conjugation class. As a further complication, we have "salata" -class. Is the ending there -nnut, -nut or -ut?
 * We run to similar difficulties with -ttu but I guess they become trivial as soon as we have figured out how to represent -nut. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If we wanted to divide our current conjugation classes to -nut, -ut and -nnut -categories, we would get this grouping:
 * -nut: huutaa, juoda, kaivaa, käydä, laskea, lähteä, muistaa, nähdä, kumajaa, saada, saartaa, sallia, sanoa, soutaa, taitaa, tuntea, tupakoida, virkkaa, voida
 * -ut: juosta, olla, rohkaista, seistä, tulla
 * -nnut: katketa, salata, selvitä, valita, vanheta
 * --Hekaheka (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Similarly for -ttu and -tu
 * -ttu: huutaa, kaivaa, laskea, lähteä, muistaa, kumajaa, saartaa, sallia, sanoa, soutaa, taitaa, tuntea, virkkaa, katketa, salata, selvitä, valita, vanheta
 * -tu: juosta, olla, rohkaista, seistä, tulla, juoda, käydä, nähdä, saada, tupakoida, voida
 * --Hekaheka (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think this is pretty straightforward. The basic suffix is, and the -n- assimilates to certain consonants: ln > ll (kuollut), rn > rr (purrut), sn > ss (juossut), tn > nn (salannut). This is mostly a Proto-Finnic process, so it's probably not productive in Finnish anymore. Consider that we don't have entries for assimilations in other suffixes, like the infinitive ld > ll (tulla), rd > rr (purra) and so on. We have no or  entries for these, only  and . I have no problem if these are created, but they should only say something like "form of infinitive suffix -a that occurs after -l-" and point back to the main form.
 * As for vowel harmony, we always treat the back harmony form as the primary form, and create an entry for the front harmony form that links back to it. —CodeCat 00:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Do you like what you see under -nut/-nyt, -ut/-yt and  -nnut/-nnyt? --Hekaheka (talk) 13:27, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks ok, but there is no -ut or -nnut as I mentioned. —CodeCat 15:30, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

sauvoa
It's currently not clear which of the meanings of is intended here. Could you disambiguate it? —CodeCat 00:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC) --Done. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

oheen
I fixed the format of this entry, which went against our normal practices. The headword must always be first on the line. In any case, I wonder if the label for the genitive is even necessary here. Are there any postpositions that don't use the genitive (or prepositions that don't use the partitive)? Perhaps we should only label the unusual cases. —CodeCat 22:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I have copied the format from something created by Jyril, whose work I'm used to trust. I guess he figured that in case of a postposition this is the natural order: the headword (in different sense than you are using the word) comes before the postposition. Therefore it is natural that the case in which the headword is inflected is mentioned first. From the way you have written it, one might get a wrong impression. Rest of the Wiktionary community has been happy with this way of formatting for ten years and I don't think you have the authority to change it just by a whim. I don't think anybody else than Jyril has even given a thought on how to express the case of the headword of a postposition, because there are few postpositions in English, let alone the cases. I can quickly think of postpositions that take elative (huolimatta), elative or illative (asti), partitive (varten), illative (saakka) and genitive or partitive (ympäri). --Hekaheka (talk) 23:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I found a way to make both of us happy, see . --Hekaheka (talk) 07:30, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Deprecated parameters removed from Template:fi-adj
I cleaned this template up a bit by simplifying the code and removing parameters that were deprecated (according to the documentation). I fixed entries that still used these old parameters. I'm letting you know in case you were still using the old ones. —CodeCat 23:25, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for info. That's the form I'm been using. --Hekaheka (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

voitaa
Does this verb still exist in Finnish, or perhaps did it formerly exist? It's found in most other Finnic languages (see ), and implies that it existed at some point in Finnish too. —CodeCat 19:27, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It does not exist anymore, for sure. The Google hits are all typos of . I would not have known it, but by studying BGC one may conclude that voitaa has existed, at least in dialects. It appears in 14 times, but I'm not sure if it was ever regarded as acceptable in standard Finnish. Also form  was mentioned in a linguistic publication. --Hekaheka (talk) 07:19, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Since it's attested in old texts, I've created a basic entry for it, saying it's an obsolete synonym of . I don't know if the inflection is of the muistaa, huutaa or soutaa type. —CodeCat 14:41, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It's muistaa -type. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:38, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Odd IP Behavior
Take a look at the entries edited by this IP (using addresses 118.161.33.6 and 118.161.33.183), and tell me if there's any reason to remove their Finnish translations. I've been working on the assumption that this person is just randomly deleting any Finnish translations they come across- I have no idea why (strangely enough, they geolocate to Taiwan), but I thought I'd check with you. I only know a few words of Finnish, and these aren't among them. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what this person thinks he's doing. These are commonplace Finnish terms that could have been checked in a decent Finnish-English-Finnish dictionary. I completely agree with your undoing of the edits. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

law of the sea not the same as admiralty law/maritime law
FYI. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * In Finnish they are. One can use and  as specifiers if there's risk of confusion. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:02, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Uraauurtava
I am guessing that uraauurtava is a compound of uraa (partivive) and uurtaa. Is that about right? ~ heyzeuss 17:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * You are about right. Just note that present active participle of . --Hekaheka (talk) 22:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

☣ discussed for deletion
Please start the discussion to delete ☣ at Requests for deletion or withdraw the request. Do not leave the RFD tag without discussion. Thanks.Jusjih (talk) 01:29, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the mistake. I usually do start the discussion. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

kemiri
Yes, Aleurites moluccana (L.) Willd. is the correct name, but not the most common one- not by a long shot. If you look at "Aleurites moluccana" in Google Books vs. "Aleurites moluccanus" in Google Books, the ratio is 14,300 raw hits to 50 raw hits. Even Wikispecies has the feminine form (so taxlink no longer takes you to the entry), and you can find Aleurites moluccana all over the place in the non-taxonomic scientific literature. Of course, the rules and all the authoritative taxonomic sites say it should be Aleurites moluccanus.

We've never really decided what to do in such cases. I'm not about to undo your edit because I honestly don't know which way we should go- I just thought I'd make you aware of the complexity of the situation. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We could have both forms and write a usage note as an explanation. See the entry for one possible solution. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:57, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

nomen est omen
Hi Hekaheka, I was wondering if you could help out and shed some light on the questions I have aboutthe entry you created a while ago. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2016/April#Nomen_est_omen. Thanks, Edwininlondon (talk) 19:55, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

kotona
Would you be okay with removing or qualifying the usage note under kotona? I'm only a learner, but my learning materials show examples of it used without a genitive or possessive, for example Kotona ei ole isää in Karlsson's Essential Grammar or Onko Timo kotona? in Leney's Teach Yourself Finnish. --46.226.49.227 10:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems that some re-writing is necessary, because the usage is more complicated than that. The usage of possessive suffixes has become more relaxed, especially in 3rd person. However, a possessive suffix is still required whenever a possessive pronoun (minun, sinun, hänen, meidän, teidän, heidän) is used, e.g. Minun kotonani ei ole isää. In your second example, you would use the form kotona if it's clear that it is Timo's home that is referred to, like when you are standing at Timo's door asking his mom about his whereabouts. But, if you expected to find Timo on a sports field but he wasn't there, you could ask from his friends: Onko Timo kotonaan?. In the sentence Kukaan ei halua olla kotonaan juhannuksena (Nobody wants to be at home in the midsummer) one can use both forms. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

lerpattaa
What does this word mean? I can't figure it out. —CodeCat 20:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It means "to hang loose", like e.g. the ears of some dogs. Synonyms include lerppua and olla lerpallaan. Related terms include and, which may be used e.g. of a body part that suddenly starts to hang in an uncontrolled manner, and specifically of a failed erection. Yhtäkkiä hänellä lerpahti means "he suddenly lost his erection". If you can suggest English words for the red-linked terms, I can make Finnish entries for them. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What kind of English words? I'm not sure what you mean. —CodeCat 20:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I mean translations. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You want me to translate Finnish into English? —CodeCat 20:58, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I want you to figure out English equivalents to the red-linked Finnish words. I guess it should be possible on the basis of the explanations that I gave. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Another related term is the slang verb, which means "to shake something that is loose or soft", especially to shake one's dick after peeing in order to shake off the last drops of urine. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

olla jossakin
I'm coming across this in a bunch of translations, followed by some other word. Some examples: The individual words don't make sense to me, "to be in something chubby"? "To be somewhere chubby"? I'm guessing that this is a kind of idiom but we have nothing in our entries. —CodeCat 20:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "olla jossakin pulleana"
 * "olla jossakin pörröisenä"
 * "olla jossakin hajallaan"
 * "olla jossakin liian suoranenäisenä"
 * "olla jossakin karvakuluna"
 * "olla jossakin jalat harallaan"
 * You are obviously trying to figure out the meaning of Sami words on this net site . I don't understand them either, unless it means e.g. that the Sami verb "rančát" (olla jossakin puolialastomana / "to be somewhere half-naked") requires an object that indicates the place where one is half-naked. I mean that the corresponding Sami construction for olin takapihallani puolialastomana / "I was half-naked in my backyard" would be: "I [proper form of rančát] my backyard". Another possibility is that there's some other difference in the way Sami and Finnish sentences are formulated, which the author of the word list fails to describe properly. I think I gave you earlier her name and some contact data. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact it seems that I did not give that information. Here are you: Tarja Länsman, tel: +358 40 847 6090, email: tarja.lansman(a)gmail.com. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes it's the same list of words that I showed you a while ago, I just rearranged them. In Northern Sami, verbs ending in -át are often inceptives, indicating that one starts to do something. Do the Finnish translations make more sense in that context? I also came across "olla kierossa", which also uses the inessive but without the . Could it perhaps mean "become crooked"? —CodeCat 21:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Olla kierossa means "to be crooked" (sense "set at an angle; not vertical or square")
 * ''Tuo kuva on kierossa - voisitko oikaista sen?
 * That picture is crooked - could you straighten it up for me?
 * The use of inessive indicates that the picture is in a crooked position as contrasted with the possibility that the picture itself were crooked (e.g. not square). In that case one would say kuva on kiero. If kiero were used attributively, one would not use the inessive. Thus kiero kuva may be crooked in either way, just as in English. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:51, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

preliminäärikoe
I think you may want to look at this entry. I noticed its etymology had different terms in the compound: "present" + "tense", literally, rather than "preliminary" + "exam", or whatnot. Also, special thanks for all of the Finnish contributions you've made. I really love to see dedicated users like you, and you make me strive to get Danish to have this much coverage. Philmonte101 (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. Seems that I have been working with a list of words beginning with "pre-", copied the base from another entry and forgotten to edit the etymology. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Tanska-Norja
I have recently created this Finnish entry as a translation of Denmark-Norway. I'm pretty sure it's okay, but could you please check it out for me, and add things, etc., you know, whatever you usually do? Thanks so much. Philmonte101 (talk) 14:24, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. --Hekaheka (talk) 22:21, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Translation request
Hi. Could you please translate this passage for me from en->fi?

"Hi. I am an 18-year-old bisexual girl looking for a sweet, older girl to talk to. I do not speak Finnish, but I'd like to learn the language. I am from the United States."

(I wouldn't ask what this is for though lol) Philmonte101 (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Hei, olen 18-vuotias biseksuaalinen tyttö ja etsin mukavaa vanhempaa tyttöä puhekaveriksi. En puhu suomea, mutta haluaisin oppia kieltä. Olen Yhdysvalloista. --Hekaheka (talk) 02:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Ensimmäinen kerros
AFAIK, "ensimmäinen kerros" refers to the floor immediately above the ground floor (UK first floor, US second floor), not the ground floor. In Finnish, the ground floor is called "pohjakerros", and the basement is called "kellarikerros". Is this true? The elevator floor number goes: K, P, 1, 2, 3, ... This may be because the first "ordinary" floor with apartments or offices is usually, if not always, one floor above ground. 139.193.145.12 08:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As I tried to explain, in Finland it depends. I live in a building, where there is an underground basement (K) and six floors, no P. I think this arrangement was the mainstream till about 1960's, when the buildings were still constructed in situ out of bricks, mortar and timber. When the concrete elements became the standard, the functions that were earlier located underground were moved above ground. As this floor was above ground, it could no more be called "kellari" and the term "pohjakerros" came about. I stick in my opinion that the first living floor is normally called "ensimmäinen kerros" in Finnish. I've seen some exceptions in buildings that have been built in a steep slope. In such case the entrance floor may be called 1st and the living floors below that are numbered -1, -2.. That's not common, though. I work in a building in which the main entrance floor is the 3rd and there are two office floors under it. Still below them are two cellars, K1 and K2. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And, of course, there are buildings which have other than living floors both under and above ground level. Then the numbering goes like you write: K, P, 1, 2... --Hekaheka (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think, by definition the term "pohjakerros" means the floor immediately below "ensimmäinen kerros", whether it is completely above ground, partially below ground or completely below ground. 139.228.120.124 10:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As usual, you're making categorical, black-and-white assumptions about languages you don't know based on minimal information (how much Finnish do you use in Indonesia?). This is apparently the first time you've gone so far as to correct a native speaker on their own language, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I've blocked you, and will continue to block all of your IPs, because you're unable to recognize or admit that your methods for figuring out what words mean are completely inadequate for the purposes of a dictionary- especially since you have no real-world experience with the languages in question. Please find something better to do with your time. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks!
Just a brief note of thanks not only for defining kylmäkiskoinen recently but for all your magnificent contributions and the help you give to the community of editors and non editors alike. Your work deserves higher recognition. Is there a system of honours in Finland like there is in the UK with awards like OBE and CBE? I'd like to recommend you.

 * Thanks for the recognition, it made my day. Sure there is a system of honours in Finland: . But I'm working with the English Wiktionary. Shouldn't it rather be OBE or CBE? Thousands of Finns have the SVR, but OBE would be real cool :-) --Hekaheka (talk) 01:00, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

milyen
Hi Hekaheka, can you give a source for the etymology you added? According to my reference books, it is not a compound word, but originates from mely. --Panda10 (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I saw it explained that way somewhere when I was trying to find out whether this edit and two others by the same anonym user make sense. It sounded plausible, because in Finnish  is derived from  and, and Estonian  is construed in a similer way. But you are a Hungarian Wiktionarist with a lot of experience in editing. If you say it's not a compound I have no grounds to claim otherwise. Just go ahead and change the etymology at your will. I already dropped a reference to "milyen" from the etymology of "millainen".
 * As for the other two edits, I was already able to figure out that the similarity between Finnish and Hungarian  is a mere coincidence. Could you also check whether this edit  makes sense to you? It claims that the Hungarian word for "horse's chest" is related to the word for "heart".
 * BTW, good that we got in contact. If I have further problems with Hungarian words, I trust I may ask from you about them. Likewise, I'll be available for any concerns you may have about Finnish. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I updated all the mentioned Hungarian etymologies. The two words - and  - are not related. We have to be careful with anonymous editors who do not provide any source. I'd be glad to help with your questions about Hungarian, feel free to contact me any time. Thanks for your offer about Finnish, it's good to know who can and is willing to help. :) --Panda10 (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Greco-Latinate prefixes in Finnish
Prompted by this edit, but it's an issue in more general: I am skeptical on if Finnish really has a prefix or a suffix, or many of the other affixes currently found at Category:Finnish prefixes. I do not think we have native use for many of them. That they can be still analyzed thanks to the existence of words like or  does not necessarily mean that the prefix is actually used in forming new words.

There's also a lot more than the current list that could be theoretically analyzed. E.g. comparing and  would allow extracting the pseudo-suffixes  and  (equal to Latin  and ); but I hope you can agree that this would be a bad idea.

Some Greco-Latinate ones have been taken up in active use of course, e.g. in  or, but I feel like we ought to be presenting some actual evidence in our prefix entries for this. There is no one-to-one relationship after all, e.g. a is  and not **monoraiteinen.

At minimum, I would suggest not removing loan etymologies even if you add suffix formatting. A morphological analysis is not, strictly speaking, an etymology — see e.g. or  for examples where a word clearly has both an etymology and a morphological analysis. Similarly any word like has not come into Finnish thru being formed independently from its parts, but as a loan. --Tropylium (talk) 17:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I have actually been pondering the same, but the practice of treating mono- etc. as prefixes in Finnish wiktionary predates me. As I'm not a professional linguist I have not dared to challenge it. Changing the practice is ok for me. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What, then, should be done with entries like ? Should we continue to call it a suffix, or should we even delete the entry? --Hekaheka (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think if we wanted to clean these up, it would have to be on a case-by-case basis, depending on if some affix is being used in native words as well (which would take some separate looking-into). I suspect we might be able to find in many cases attestations for occasional derivatives either built on Finnish roots (Google e.g. finds some 200 hits for ), or built from Greco-Latinate roots but coined originally in Finnish (perhaps ?). So no rush to delete anything, I suppose. I think my main point is that if you were to claim that e.g. is  +, this would be an anachronism similar to claiming that  is  +.
 * A particularly messy case is chemical nomenclature, which theoretically allows an infinite variety of terms, and there is no constraint (and often no way to tell) "in which language" a particular term was first formed. Dealing with these might warrant a wider BP discussion. --Tropylium (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

värkätä etymology
Hi Hekaheka. Derivation from the Swedish only really makes sense of the  element of. Is there, by any chance, a suffix like, which acts to form denominatives? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 08:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 * According to the article on (noun) the verb  has been derived from it. In reality it is probably impossible to know for sure which was derived from which. But if we accept this theory, we may think that värkätä was derived from the Swedish verb by adding the Finnish ending  (variant -tä for vowel harmony) to make it sound like a Finnish verb. The resulting Finnish verb would be värkätä even if one thought it comes from the noun. Then the -ä- in the middle could be thought of as a phonetic adaption as värktä would not fit well into Finnish language. There's also the word  which has earlier been used as a synonym of  at least in the noun . If a verb were derived from that, it would become värkitä. This would seem to support the idea that värkätä was derived from verka rather than verk.  As you may notice my theoretical knowledge of etymology and phonology are self-acquired but I'm pretty sure I'm in the right ballpark. When writing the etymology I wanted to write only the part of which I could be sure: värkätä comes from verk by one path or another. After all this reasoning I dared to make it a little more complete. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:48, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

 * That's great, thanks. I added some more detail and a couple of categories; would you agree that that is also an improvement? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Education in Finland
Hi Hekaheka, Do you have idea of what education is like in Finland? What do students do there in a daily basis? And what tools do they use to learn English (immersion, software)? Kiitos – AWESOME meeos ！ ＊ （「欺负」我） 11:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Small question, but a huge one to answer. In principle, I guess the students do pretty much the same thing as their colleagues everywhere: sit in the classrom and do their homework. It's the quality of classroom work and homework which makes the difference between learning and not learning. As you may already see, I'm not an expert in education as it is today. I finished the university already back in 1983 and have since worked in other fields. But, if you could elaborate your question, I might be able to refer you to someone who is more knowledgeable, or possibly to some articles that you might want to read. Which level of education is your primary interest? What is your main interest in asking - are you educator, planner, administrator or something else? Are you chiefly interested in methods of teaching English or teaching in general? Anything else, which might specify your interest? --Hekaheka (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * , Okay. Let me tell you some things I heard was true in Finland. I heard that they don't really do homework. Classrooms are also more relaxed, unlike the US or UK. Only one big test at the end of their schooling life. For the English part—let me ask you—what did it take for you to get an en-4? I am only asking this to compare with my education system, in Australia – AWESOME meeos ！ ＊ （「欺负」我） 21:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll try to remember to ask my daughter next Sunday of the amount of homework the kids are coping with nowadays . She is elementary school teacher. I know that it isn't quite as easy as you describe. My kids went to school in 1990's and 2000's and they had tests throughout the year. The homework wasn't insignificant either, but they still had time for other activities. The amount of homework and number of tests increased gradually when they advanced to the higher grades.
 * My first foreign languages were Swedish and German. I have only had three years of English in the high school, I would say 2 - 3 hrs per week. I believe at least the following factors have contributed to my English skills:
 * The foreign language films and TV programs are not dubbed in Finland. This exposes folks to foreign languages from the childhood.
 * If you master German grammar, English grammar is a piece of cake.
 * In the university we used many English-language textbooks.
 * I had a summer job in Canada.
 * I dated a Canadian girl for one year.
 * I have worked in the Finnish Embassy in Washington D.C., and I have travelled the globe quite a bit on business trips.
 * I've been an active Wiktionarian since 2006.
 * --Hekaheka (talk) 21:49, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, but I kept forgetting to ask her. This, of course, is just one opinion, but she believes it's important that an individual teacher has a lot of leeway in planning his/her teaching so that it suits the specific needs of the class at hand. The description of a course may consist of ten lines and beyond that it's up to the teacher to decide how he wants to get the message through. The amount of homework and number of tests during the academic year are decided by the teacher. At the end of the school (after grade 12) there's a standardized national test. You might find this article interesting. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

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Thank you! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 22:25, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Talk:karhunpeijaiset
Reminder of an old ping. Thank you! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Like it? --Hekaheka (talk) 03:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Thank you! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 03:30, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

torppari
Hi! Can you check if this change to the etymology is right? - -sche (discuss) 19:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't know. It could be understood as derived from Finnish or as coming directly from Swedish . It may be best to keep both explanations. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable. Thanks for looking into it. - -sche (discuss) 06:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Special:Diff/42767747 and Jungfrukällan
Hi Hekaheka. Re “deleted sv:Jungfrukällan – it’s a name of a famous film by Ingmar Bergman, literally ‘maiden spring’, but we don’t carry names of works of art”, cf. . But still, judging by, , , and especially , seems also to be a common noun. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 19:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 * OK, I'll try to find a definition, wih minuscule "j". --Hekaheka (talk) 21:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * According to a folk history, two brothers accidentally killed their three sisters on a Christmas Eve near in Scania. They buried their sisters by the river, and later three springs appeared on the site. These springs are still today called "jungfrukällor". Another history has it that three men attacked three sisters in the forest, but rather than letting the men have their way with them, the sisters committed a suicide and the springs arose from their blood. Bergman's film is based on the latter myth. A similar history has been told of three other springs near, of another three springs in  on the island of Zealand, Denmark and yet other sets of springs in some other places, e.g. in Jutland, Norway and on Faroe Islands. I don't know whether this makes jungfrukälla entry-worthy. --Hekaheka (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 * That is awesome. Numbers-wise, it seems easily satisfies WT:CFI. I would encourage you to make the entry; if you included a pronunciation and citation for it, I'd nominate it for WT:FWOTD. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * . First version published. Feel free to improve the wording. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:39, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

raato
Please check. —suzukaze (t・c) 22:22, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not all too familiar with etymologies but looks good to an inexpert eye. --Hekaheka (talk) 02:59, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

First name consonant gradation
I'm not always sure what kind of consonant gradation to use with first names. For example, I've heard Finns disagree about whether to use "Jaakon" and Jaakkon." Is one of them more old fashioned or dialectical? ~ heyzeuss 09:27, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid there's no clear-cut rule. I would say that consonent gradation usually takes place (e.g. Jaakko - Jaakon, Pekka - Pekan; Mäki - Mäen, Virtanen - Virtasen), but the vowels often behave differently from ordinary nouns (e.g. Pilvi - Pilvin and not Pilven, Suvi - Suvin and not Suven). If "Jaakkon" exists, it's definitely dialectal. --Hekaheka (talk) 11:04, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Paikkeilla
This page on time expressions gives kello viiden paikkeilla (about 5 o'clock) as an example. Is paike or paikkeilla poetic or archaic or something? ~ heyzeuss 09:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe it comes from . Use of adessive plural indicates aboutness, a bit in the same way as the use plural in ". Its synonyms include, , , , , , , , . --Hekaheka (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Time expressions with -lta
When using the -lta ending in time expressions, how do you use it in various cases, like with exact minutes? How do you write it in shorthand? How do you say it? Examples:

 * I would not write "3:lta". I would write it out as "kolmelta". The ablative is often omitted when one talks more exactly than with full and half hours. Written and spoken language often differ from each other unless the text is a quote. I personally prefer the Anglosaxon standard of using colon between the hours and minutes, because e.g. "12.10" might be understood as a date. Kotus recommends the dot but the use of colon is not a deadly sin. I would change your table as below (writing on left, speech on right):

Would it be incorrect to leave out the -lta suffix in certain situations, such as:

 * These are correct. Here is a good text about expressions of time in Finnish, although it fails to discuss the use of ablative. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

~ heyzeuss 09:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

monsu
Apparently it means "monster"? —Rua (mew) 20:41, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a slang expression, but I'm afraid it's not attestable by our standards, unless you can provide the quotes. If you can, I'll be glad to translate them into English. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I take back my comment. It actually seems to be role playing slang, and meaning "monster". I'll add it. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It was the title of a video, Monsuaika, whose soundtrack was a song called Monster time. —Rua (mew) 20:54, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

jou!
Is that a word? Finnish guy said hello to me with that word, but maybe it was deliberate Internet misspelling or something. I assume it's a Finnicisation of "yo!". Equinox ◑ 04:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You got it right. Added an entry for it. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Finnish anagrams
Would you like me to update these with my bot? I have the code written already and have run them for English. DTLHS (talk) 18:49, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be very nice of you, thank you! --Hekaheka (talk) 18:51, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, some questions about the rules. The full list of characters used in Finnish entry titles is ,-./0124:ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzÄÅÖáâãäåèéíîöûüŠšŽžș. Should I treat a and á/â/ã/ä/å as equivalent (and the same for the other diacritics?) Should I ignore punctuation (treat c.b.a and abc as anagrams)? DTLHS (talk) 19:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * No and yes - diacritics should not be treated as equivalent, but punctuation should be ignored. Diacritics other than ÄÖäö are only used in loanwords and the likelihood of finding anagrams among words using those other diacritics is small. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:15, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll run it when the next database dump comes out (sometime this month probably). DTLHS (talk) 19:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Dates
I want to make sure that I am gettting it. As I understand it:

Dates are stated with days in the ordinal form.
 * -- Right

Months, when stated as numbers, are either cardinal abessive, such as yhdettä, or ordinal paritive, such as ensimmäistä. These words are the same for 4-12. When the names of the months are given, the ordinal partitive form is always used, such as tammikuuta.
 * -- Numbers of months are ordinal partitives. For first and second one can use also and  in addition to  and.

Examples:

 * Veronikan vauvaa odotetaan kahdeskymmenes maaliskuuta.
 * 18.6. kahdeksastoista kuudetta
 * 21.9. kahdeskymmenesensimmäinen yhdeksättä
 * 18.7. kahdeksastoista seitsemättä
 * 29.3. kahdeskymmenesyhdeksäs kolmatta

Here it states that days can also be given in the ordinal nominative: Ajanilmaukset - Päiväys ja vuosiluku.

"22. päivä voidaan lukea joko kahdeskymmenestoinen tai kahdeskymmeneskahdes. Samoin esimerkin kuukausi on mahdollista lukea joko kahdetta tai toista."

I am a little confused about that. Is that referring to when I would say "kahdeskymmenestoinen päivä?"
 * -- I'm not sure if I understand what you are confused about - kahdeskymmenestoinen and kahdeskymmeneskahdes are both nominatives meaning "22nd". Similarly, you could use kahdeskymmenesyhdes for 21st and kolmaskymmenesyhdes for 31st. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

~ heyzeuss 11:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I'll get back later, but here's one comment that may reduce your confusion:
 * yhdettä and kahdetta are also partitives, from the words and  respectively

--Hekaheka (talk) 11:55, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

 * That's great, thank you. :) ~ heyzeuss 06:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Shave and a haircut...two bits
Is there a corresponding Finnish lyric?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shave_and_a_Haircut

~ heyzeuss 17:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

The tune is familiar, but I don't remember any Finnish lyric other than tät-tä-rä-rät-tä--tät-tä. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

fi.wikt
Purely nosy, and I hope you never leave. You don't work on the Finnish Wiktionary, do ya? Why so? What is the nature of your interest in English? Equinox ◑ 04:47, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I just think it would be important to compile a comprehensive English-Finnish dictionary. I have also heard encouraging feedback from the foreign students of Finnish. Many of them think that English Wiktionary is already their most useful aid. I have done less than 50 edits in the Finnish Wiktionary. I find it less important, because a good Finnish-Finnish dictionary already exists, i.e. . Its abridged web version is here, and it's one of the tasks of the Kotus institution to update it. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Have you spent much time in English-speaking regions? (Sounds like it.) Equinox ◑ 05:12, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I have had a summer job in Toronto and I lived a year in Washington D.C. I have also traveled quite a bit and worked in international context. Currently I speak English with my son's Chinese girlfriend and my Peruvian son-in-law. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * (A curiosity: wiktionary.org has rank 124 in Finland, per http://wiktionary.org.hypestat.com/. That is probably Alexa rank, meaning, wiktionary.org is among 124 most visited websites in Finland. Among countries, Sweden is second as for wikt org with the rank of 138. The Finland result is in part due to your efforts, I guess. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2017 (UTC))

purka
Hi, could you make a Finnish entry for this? I found it in a Sami dictionary and would like to know what it means. —Rua (mew) 21:11, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering, too. Could you give a link to the Sami dictionary? This does not appear to be a Finnish word. The closest I can think of is the slang word . --Hekaheka (talk) 21:16, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * http://kaino.kotus.fi/algu/index.php?kkieli=en&t=lekseemi&lekseemi_id=74981 . It seems to be a cognate of the Sami term too. —Rua (mew) 22:06, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The word is not in NSK. The sense given in the Sami dictionary appears plausible, because it might come from the same root as, etc. I decided to trust the Sami dictionary and made the Finnish entry, labeling the term "archaic". --Hekaheka (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I found a couple of books. It seems to mean the moult of the reindeer (possibly also other animals, but the usage I found was of reindeer) in Northern dialect. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:09, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Outbox (computing)
Hi, just stumbled upon the outbox page. It seems you changed the definition from "An electronic folder serving the same purpose, for electronic mail" to "An electronic folder holding the sent electronic mail" as part of this edit. That doesn't match how I've seen the term used, though: Usually, an email client has three folders for outgoing mail, named Draft, Outbox, and Sent. While composing a mail, it's stored in the Draft folder. Clicking the "send" button moves it to the Outbox. As soon as possible (nowadays, with always-online devices, that's usually instantly) the mail is sent to the server, and moved to the Sent folder. So at least in my experience, the electronic outbox does in fact mirror the purpose of its physical equivalent: Holding the mail to be sent out. --Tobias K. (talk) 15:41, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems that I've made an error. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:21, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No problem, thanks for the quick correction! :) --Tobias K. (talk) 17:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Hekaheka/Archive 2015 2017


text: ambicións

title: ambicións


text:
analityk

Etymology
..

Noun

 * 1) analyst
 * 2)  analyst
 * 1)  analyst

title: analityk


text:
analityczka

Etymology
From. .

title: analityczka


text:
gounde

Etymology
From, from.

Noun

 * 1) Gum that is deposited in sore eyes; gound.

title: gounde


text: gownde

title: gownde


text:
analityka

Etymology 1
..

Noun

 * 1)  analytics

title: analityka


text: Thesaurus:completion

title: Thesaurus:completion


text:
かだん

Noun

 * 1)  flowerbed

title: かだん


text: kadan

title: kadan


text: Thesaurus:incompletion

title: Thesaurus:incompletion


text: goundi

title: goundi


text:
gundy

Noun

 * 1)  A front claw of a crab.

Derived terms

 * solomon gundy

Noun

 * 1)  A true bug (genus ), known for being a pest on rice and for its unpleasant smell.

title: gundy


text: gondye

title: gondye


text: gowndy

title: gowndy


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/mənə

Noun

 * 1) concrete thing

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/mənə


text:
servish

Etymology
From.

Adjective

 * 1) obedient; compliant

title: servish


text:
Citations:minecraft

 * 1962, Samuel Eliot Morison, History of United States Naval Operation in World War II, page 79:
 * Each was marked by lighted dan buoys spaced at one-mile intervals, laid by Fairmile motor launches of the Royal Navy, which followed immediately behind the minecraft.
 * 2005, Norman Polmar, Naval Institute Guide to the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet (ISBN 9781591146858), page 231:
 * In reality, the ship was named (on 3 July 1990) along with several other MCMs to "commemorate the service of World War II minecraft that saw significant service."

title: Citations:minecraft


text:
minecraft

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) A warship which lays naval mines;  ships which deal with naval mines.

title: minecraft


text: minecrafts

title: minecrafts


text:
Wiktionary:Votes/2019-01/Moving Novial entries to the Appendix

Moving Novial entries to the Appendix
Voting on: Moving all Novial entries from mainspace to Appendix space, e.g. chokolate to Appendix:Novial/chokolate. All Novial translations in mainspace would also be removed, but Novial could still be linked to in other contexts. Novial would also be moved from the “excluded except” list to the “should have lexicons in the Appendix namespace” list at WT:CFI.

Schedule:
 * Vote starts: 00:00, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Vote ends: 23:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Vote extended to 23:59, 28 March 2019 (UTC), driven by a late change in the voting stance of Per utramque cavernam and the borderline result. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Vote created: 02:02, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion:
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] Beer parlour/2019/January
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] Wiktionary talk:Votes/2019-01/Moving Novial entries to the Appendix

Support

 * 1)  Finding enough citations for the language does not seem possible. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 14:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said at the Beer Parlor, it's hard to find citable authors other than Otto Jespersen, and given the language being most successful 1928-1943, any works are not freely available on Google Books or Hathitrust. I don't oppose appendixfying, but I really think it better to just point to Otto Jespersen's works on the subject and let it go at that.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:56, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  —Mahāgaja · talk 07:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , for the same reasoning as Lojban. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  Per above. --  19:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 2) . Based on what Prosfilaes says, it may be necessary (or at least desirable) to dramatically downsize the number of words we include, in the manner of e.g. Dothraki. I am sympathetic to doing that or removing the lect altogether as Rua suggests. - -sche (discuss) 16:55, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 3) . It seems the alternatives are to remove Novial entirely (which might be worth considering) or to let it die a slow, painful death as terms fail RFV a few at a time. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:46, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 4)  This, that and the other (talk) 09:28, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 5) . For the same reason as Lojban. — Algentem (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 6)  Yes please. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 21:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  strongly, for the same reasons as I gave in the Lojban debacle. To wit: it removes (or is perceived as removing, if פֿינצטערניש's and Prosfilaes' comments in this vote are any indication) the inclusion criteria without introducing new ones, making RFV/RFD processes impossible. These are particularly important for conlangs, because people are much more inclined to invent and promote words in their favourite conlangs than in natural languages, which is not something we should be party to if we want to be taken seriously as a descriptive work. If editors of Novial want it to be subject to a laxer set of criteria than LDL, they can propose one and we can have a meaningful discussion about it. If they were to do so, I would be more inclined to support that proposal (no promises, though) if it stipulated an -esque disclaimer, as Dan Polansky suggests. While moving the entries to Appendix would make it less likely for someone to stumble on them, if they were to do so, they would not be met with any indication that the information is less reliable than mainspace material, which I presume is why anyone wants this language out of mainspace.__Gamren (talk) 14:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think that your votes (those you've created and cast) have been counterproductive in this debate, but I think that your core ideas are genuinely good. I'd like to draft a vote with you to establish attestation criteria for the appendix. I'm travelling for the next few days, but leave me a message on my talk page and we can try to work on a robust vote that can get passed. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:09, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly be happy to help, if I can, but the vote draft I made before were not well-received, maybe because I don't edit the relevant languages myself and therefore don't have a sense of what material is available. I could make a generalized, abstract (i.e. not referring to specific works) version of this with more options, but I don't see that that would go differently. Perhaps you would make a draft yourself? Otherwise I don't really know how to proceed.__Gamren (talk) 21:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I should also say that I don't think I'll agree, personally, to anything laxer than WDL. The rationale for LDL, to me, is the idea that there's a "hidden corpus" of non-durable text. For conlangs, the majority of the text is available.__Gamren (talk) 21:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't oppose removing the language completely, but for now I think this is a step in the right direction.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  moving them to the Appendix namespace. Support removing it entirely. The Appendix namespace is not a dumping ground for things we don't want in the main namespace, and it definitely should not contain dictionary entries. —Rua (mew) 14:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  If Novial is moved to the Appendix for it being a ConLang, then shouldn't other ConLangs be moved too? Such as Esperanto, Interlingua, Volapük, etc. This begs the question: what qualifies a ConLang for inclusion on Wiktionary? While Wikimedia is not for things made up in one day (theoretically, anyone can make up their own language if they'd like), some ConLangs such as the above are very common and widespread. Esperanto has even been added to Google Translate! Are there any other reasons that Novial should be moved, besides the fact that it's a ConLang? Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It appears that you haven't read the discussions linked above. Novial is, unlike Esperanto, not at all widespread and almost exclusively written by a single person. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Unlike with Esperanto, Ido, and Interlingua, there is not a large literary corpus that could make Novial meet the criteria for inclusion. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I understand your arguments. But all in all, I can't support this. For one thing, the language exists, and if it's not a big thing today, it has been one in the past. The argument that "Wikipedia [or Wiktionary] is not for things made up in one day" is patently absurd when applied to Novial. But more importantly: Wikimedia acknowledges its existence. Make no mistake: I have my doubts about the Novial Wikipedia as well. But as long as it exists, users should be able to look up words through Wiktionary. Moving all entries of a language to the Appendix namespace is a time, man power, and server space consuming operation with no obvious advantage. So in case of doubt: leave it alone. Steinbach (talk) 15:07, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Struck as ineligible to vote. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:12, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * For reference: Voting_policy.__Gamren (talk) 19:01, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that Steinbach now has enough edits in qualifying namespaces, so should his/her vote be unstruck? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  12:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "Their account must have at least 50 edits (...) by the start time of the vote." (my emphasis)__Gamren (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  In absence of a mechanism to remove unattested or unreferenced entries. ←₰-→  Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  16:06, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Clarifying that my opposition isn't express support for deletion; though I feel quite indifferent about deletion vs. moving to the appendix in this case. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  11:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Late : actually, I'd prefer to see it deleted entirely (per Rua). In any case, oppose per LBD and Gamren. Per utramque cavernam 12:50, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 2)  Okay, if all the objections are for deletion, that the Appendix is inappropriate, I'll support that.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Seems to me that at least right now, 8 votes are support, 3 are oppose but supporting deletion, 3 are oppose but not supporting deletion. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 09:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I count Johnny Shiz against deletion/moving, Lingo Bingo Dingo explicitly indifferent, and Gamren doesn't seem to be expressing anything explicitly on the subject, though I would say the last two support deleting it step-by-step via RFV if nothing else. Yes, "all the objections" was a little broad.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * In principle individual RFV would be preferable, but I don't want to subject anyone to that task if everyone agrees the language isn't going to survive. I do support deletion.__Gamren (talk) 15:05, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Abstain
. I tend to, and might move this to the support section before the end of the vote, but I'd like to remind everyone of this discussion:. Per utramque cavernam 11:09, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Switched to oppose. Per utramque cavernam 12:50, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

 * 1) . For reference: Votes/2018-02/Moving Lojban entries to the Appendix. I am not very clear about the benefit of moving something to an appendix space; what it does is that it introduces incovenience, while the content will still be in Wiktionary database, accessible to readers. I am not sure what the appendix namespace does that a badge of shame in the mainspace stating the relaxed attestation criteria would not do. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The difference between Appendix and a "badge of shame", as you call it, is that the latter would require actually specifying the attestation criteria, which has not (yet) been done.__Gamren (talk) 12:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The verification inclusion criteria and the storage location are orthogonal: whatever criteria are chosen, they can be applied in the mainspace as well as in an appendix. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In principle, yes. In practice, this vote has implications on the inclusion criteria. But fine, you don't need to justify your vote.__Gamren (talk) 21:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I think including something in an appendix is an acknowledgement that it has some importance even if it doesn't meet the strict Criteria for Inclusion. In Novial's case, it was created by a prominent linguist who was actively involved in other IAL movements. So it's less about shame and more about giving the language an honor not bestowed on the majority of such languages. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:45, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
 * And by "prominent linguist" I'm not referring to the typical self-puffing of IAL creators; this is the guy who coined the term "Great Vowel Shift" and first studied it. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 15:10, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Decision
9-6-1: Seems like no consensus. Deletion vote, next?__Gamren (talk) 19:18, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the next step is a CFI for conlangs; making clear rules usually gets more support than deleting content. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed with . פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 19:50, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you mean a CFI for appendix conlangs? Conlangs in the mainspace are already covered by CFI. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 03:52, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * But that wouldn't apply to Novial, since we've just established that there is no consensus for it to be moved to appendix. So, a vote to delete Novial and a vote to establish CFI for the appendix conlangs would be unrelated, and can happen concurrently.__Gamren (talk) 17:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * That's untrue, and if you just read what LBD said, for example, it's clear that at least some people would be fine with moving Novial to the appendix if there were a CFI governing such entries. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * @Metaknowledge: Would you be interested to clarify why keeping Novial in the mainspace but applying LDL criteria to it (including a single mention from an applicable source) would be a bad idea? For readers, an example of LDL entry with a badge of shame is Malagasy ondana. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:44, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * LDL criteria are a reflection of our recognition that languages like Malagasy are spoken much more than they are written, and we must therefore give more weight to the written material that does exist. Novial was never spoken more than it was written: it was simply never used much at all. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with a deletion vote. Discussion of a CFI for appendix conlangs is open, but I'm less than open to what seems to be a one-man effort like Novial, no matter how famous.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


text: piányí

title: piányí


text: shūguì

title: shūguì


text:
Template:RQ:Fūgashū

, Fūga Wakashū

title: Template:RQ:Fūgashū


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/kumo

Etymology
Possibly an ancient nativized borrowing from.

Noun

 * 1) cloud

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/kumo


text: hóngmáodān

title: hóngmáodān


text: hǎikuí

title: hǎikuí


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/mai

Noun

 * 1) eye

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/mai


text:
科朗

Noun

 * 1) colón (currency of Costa Rica)

title: 科朗


text: User:Zyzzek

title: User:Zyzzek


text:
begynnar

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) beginner

title: begynnar


text:
萬葉集

Etymology
.

title: 萬葉集


text:
菲幣

Noun

 * 1) Philippine peso currency of the Philippines

title: 菲幣


text: 菲币

title: 菲币


text: àishàng

title: àishàng


text: chōngfàn

title: chōngfàn


text: Thesaurus:冒犯

title: Thesaurus:冒犯


text:
比塞塔

Noun

 * 1) peseta former monetary unit of Spain

title: 比塞塔


text: Category:ar:One

title: Category:ar:One


text: Category:ar:Two

title: Category:ar:Two


text: Category:ar:Three

title: Category:ar:Three


text: Category:ar:Four

title: Category:ar:Four


text: Category:ar:Five

title: Category:ar:Five


text: Category:ar:Six

title: Category:ar:Six


text: Category:ar:Seven

title: Category:ar:Seven


text: Category:ar:Eight

title: Category:ar:Eight


text: Category:ar:Nine

title: Category:ar:Nine


text: Category:ar:Ten

title: Category:ar:Ten


text: Category:ar:Twelve

title: Category:ar:Twelve


text:
脂肪組織

Noun

 * 1)  adipose tissue; bodyfat

title: 脂肪組織


text: 脂肪组织

title: 脂肪组织


text: zhīfáng zǔzhī

title: zhīfáng zǔzhī


text: Category:ar:Thirteen

title: Category:ar:Thirteen


text:
motí

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) mutiny
 * 2) riot, uprising

title: motí


text:
bouillon cube

Noun

 * 1)  A small cube, consisting of dry ingredients, that can be dissolved to make a broth or soup stock.

Synonyms

 * broth cube
 * stock cube

Translations

 * Chinese:
 * Mandarin: 湯塊
 * Danish: bouillonterning
 * Dutch:
 * Esperanto: buljonkubo
 * Finnish:
 * French:
 * German:
 * Hungarian:
 * Italian:
 * Japanese: ブイヨンキューブ
 * Norwegian:
 * Bokmål: buljongterning
 * Nynorsk: buljongterning
 * Polish: ,
 * Portuguese: cubo de caldo
 * Romanian: cub de supă
 * Russian:
 * Spanish: cubo de caldo
 * Swedish:
 * Ukrainian: бульйонний кубик
 * Yiddish: בוליאָן־קובל, בוליאָן־קלעצל
 * Yoruba: magí

title: bouillon cube


text:
broth cube

Noun

 * 1)  A bouillon cube.

title: broth cube


text: broth cubes

title: broth cubes


text: bouillon cubes

title: bouillon cubes


text:
湯塊

Noun

 * 1) bouillon cube; stock cube

title: 湯塊


text: 汤块

title: 汤块


text: tāngkuài

title: tāngkuài


text:
なみだがち

Adjective

 * 1) often crying

title: なみだがち


text:
Talk:朝朝

Sense of "dynasty after dynasty"
I came across that translation in a poem from Hongyin, Volume II; it could be transliterated as cháocháo. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:35, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What do you think? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:36, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it can be translated as "every dynasty" or "each dynasty". "Dynasty after dynasty" is a more poetic way of putting it. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:02, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * So could we add it as an adverb? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it's an adverb or a noun... I'll have to look around for more examples. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 15:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:朝朝


text:
איטי

Adjective

 * 1) slow

title: איטי


text: ambulacrais

title: ambulacrais


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/wo

Etymology 1
Possibly related to and.

Noun

 * 1) man; male

Descendants

 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:

Pronunciation

 * Accent class: 2.1

Noun

 * 1) cord

Particle

 * 1) away from, off
 * 1) away from, off

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/wo


text: Category:Proto-Japonic particles

title: Category:Proto-Japonic particles


text:
wuda

Adjective

 * 1) naked

Adjective

 * 1) naked

title: wuda


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/pa

Descendants

 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Northern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:
 * Southern Ryukyuan:

Etymology 2
Possibly also related to, but the pitch accents do not match. For semantics, compare.

Pronunciation
Accent class 1.2.

Noun

 * 1) leaf

Etymology 3
Cognate with. Possibly also related to, but the pitch accents do not match. Compare (from ).

Pronunciation
Accent class 1.3.

Noun

 * 1) tooth

Etymology 4
Cognate with. Possibly also related to, but the pitch accents do not match. Compare (from ).

Pronunciation
Accent class 1.3.

Noun

 * 1) blade

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/pa


text:
User:Erutuon/scripts/semhide.js

// based on User:Jberkel/semhide.js and User:Ungoliant_MMDCCLXIV/synshide.js

/* globals $ */

(function { 'use strict';

function setupNyms(index, dlTag) { // Semantic relations var relationClasses = [ 'synonym', 'antonym', 'hypernym', 'hyponym', 'meronym', 'holonym', 'troponym', 'coordinate-term' ]; var relations = $(dlTag).find('dd > .nyms').get.filter(		function(element) {			return Array.prototype.some.call(element.classList, function (className) { if (relationClasses.indexOf(className) !== -1) { $(element).data('relationClass', className); return true; }			});		});	function setupToggle(elements, category, visibleByDefault) { if (elements.length === 0) return null; var toggler = $(''); var text = elements.map(function (e) {			return $(e).data('relationClass').replace('-', ' ') +				 (($(e).find('a').length > 1) ? 's' : '');		}).join(', '); function show { toggler.html(text + ' ▲'); $(dlTag).show; $(elements).show; }		function hide { toggler.html(text + ' ▼'); if ($(dlTag).children.length === elements.length) { $(dlTag).hide; } else { $(elements).hide; }		}		$(dlTag).before($(' ')		  .addClass('HQToggle')		   .append(toggler)		   .css('margin-left', '5px')); toggler.click(window.VisibilityToggles.register(category, show, hide, visibleByDefault)); }	var synonyms = relations.filter(function (e) {		return ['synonym', 'antonym'].indexOf($(e).data('relationClass')) !== -1;	}); var other = relations.filter(function (e) { return synonyms.indexOf(e) === -1; }); setupToggle(synonyms, 'synonyms', true /* show by default */); setupToggle(other, 'semantic relations'); }

$(function {	// if (mw.config.get('wgNamespaceNumber') === 0) {		$('dl:has(dd > .nyms)').each(setupNyms);	// } });

});

title: User:Erutuon/scripts/semhide.js


text:
Reconstruction talk:Proto-Indo-European/leh₁d-

Gloss seems incomplete? Balto-Slavic, Germanic (cognates, at least per Rasmussen in Derksen 2015), Hittite (from the shorter leh1-) are all glossed as "let, allow" ~ "loosen, release" (for Hittite)

Semantic leap between "be tired" --> "let, allow" seems unattractive. This suspiciously looks like one of those roots where the same (or similar) phonetic shape has like 5 unrelated meanings.

Another one is *leyd- "to play" (🇨🇬 via *loyd-) Derksen ascribes the Baltic words to this root because Hirt's law didn't operate in Baltic (although semantics are complete shit yet again (play-let??)). Neitrāls vārds (talk) 05:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


text:
塔卡

Noun

 * 1) taka currency of Bangladesh

title: 塔卡


text:
عسجد

Etymology
According to Dictionnaire du faisceau dialectal arabe andalou “without doubt” from an from the root, meaning originally aught “most worthy of bowing down”.

Noun

 * 1) gold

title: عسجد


text:
Template:jv-java

Javanese script spelling of

title: Template:jv-java


text:
ꦲꦶꦗꦺꦴ

Etymology
, from.

Adjective

 * 1)  green having green as its colour

Noun

 * 1)  green colour

title: ꦲꦶꦗꦺꦴ


text:
asam asetat

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲.

title: asam asetat


text: zìzhīzhīmíng

title: zìzhīzhīmíng


text: rú rén yǐnshuǐ, lěngnuǎn zìzhī

title: rú rén yǐnshuǐ, lěngnuǎn zìzhī


text:
asam cuka

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲.

title: asam cuka


text: zìzhī

title: zìzhī


text:
手を出す

Verb

 * 1)  to take or put one's hand out
 * 2)  to try to participate in; to foray into; to try one's hand at
 * 3)  to attack
 * 1)  to attack
 * 1)  to attack
 * 1)  to attack

title: 手を出す


text:
asam sulfat

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲.

Noun

 * 1)  sulphuric acid

title: asam sulfat


text:
dimetilmercurio

Noun

 * 1)  dimethylmercury

Noun

 * 1)  dimethylmercury

title: dimetilmercurio


text:
顔を出す

Verb

 * 1)  to put out or show one's face
 * 2)  to appear; to become visible
 * 1)  to appear; to become visible

title: 顔を出す


text:
asam amino

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲,, from.

title: asam amino


text:
耆那

Etymology
From.

Proper noun

 * 1) the Jains

title: 耆那


text: Qínàjiào

title: Qínàjiào


text: Qínà

title: Qínà


text:
asam nitrat

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲.

title: asam nitrat


text: pushscooter

title: pushscooter


text: xièqì

title: xièqì


text: pushscooters

title: pushscooters


text:
supraclinical

Adjective

 * 1)  More than is needed for clinical reasons

title: supraclinical


text:
o型環

Noun

 * 1) O-ring

title: o型環


text:
Hakeem

Etymology
Alternative spelling of.

Statistics

 * According to the 2010 United States Census, Hakeem is the 37125th most common surname in the United States, belonging to 601 individuals. Hakeem is most common among Black/African American (39.93%), White (35.44%) and Asian/Pacific Islander (14.81%) individuals.

title: Hakeem


text: o型环

title: o型环


text: ōuxínghuán

title: ōuxínghuán


text: Hakeems

title: Hakeems


text: xìbāomó

title: xìbāomó


text: xìbāomò

title: xìbāomò


text: suprafamily

title: suprafamily


text: suprafamilies

title: suprafamilies


text: sub-satellite

title: sub-satellite


text: sub-satellites

title: sub-satellites


text:
性成熟

Noun

 * 1)  sexual maturity

Adjective

 * 1)  sexually mature

title: 性成熟


text:
supramicrosurgery

Related terms

 * supramicrosurgical

title: supramicrosurgery


text: xìngchéngshú

title: xìngchéngshú


text:
supramicrosurgical

Adjective

 * 1) Relating to supramicrosurgery

title: supramicrosurgical


text: sub-sat

title: sub-sat


text: sub-sats

title: sub-sats


text:
dentilabialize

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  Of Middle Chinese initial consonants, , , and : to develop into , , , and  (or further into , , etc).

title: dentilabialize


text:
dentilabialization

Noun

 * 1)  The process of dentilabializing.

Translations

 * Chinese:
 * Mandarin: 輕唇音產生

title: dentilabialization


text:
synaptodendrosomal

Adjective

 * 1) Relating to synaptodendrosomes

title: synaptodendrosomal


text:
synaptodendrosome

Noun

 * 1) A subcellular fraction that contains the synaptic ends of axons, and dendrites

Related terms

 * synaptodendrosomal

title: synaptodendrosome


text: synaptodendrosomes

title: synaptodendrosomes


text:
synaptoproteome

Noun

 * 1) A synaptic proteome

Related terms

 * synaptoproteomic
 * synaptoproteomics

title: synaptoproteome


text:
1812年戰爭

Proper noun

 * 1) War of 1812

title: 1812年戰爭


title: 1812年战争


text: Yībāyī'èr Nián Zhànzhēng

title: Yībāyī'èr Nián Zhànzhēng


text: tenderisation

title: tenderisation


text:
tendinocyte

Noun

 * 1)  Any of rows of elongated cells between the collagen fibres of tendons

title: tendinocyte


text: tendinocytes

title: tendinocytes


text:
terrequinone

Noun

 * 1)  Any of a group of bisindole quinone alkaloids that are antitumor fungal metabolites

title: terrequinone


text: terrequinones

title: terrequinones


text:
粗肋草

Noun

 * 1) Chinese evergreen

title: 粗肋草


text: cūlècǎo

title: cūlècǎo


text:
thecodonty

Noun

 * 1) The condition of being thecodont

title: thecodonty


text:
thionation

Noun

 * 1)  Reaction with elemental sulphur

title: thionation


text:
Ancient Chinese

Etymology
Used by.

Proper noun

 * 1)  Middle Chinese.

title: Ancient Chinese


text:
tickspider

Noun

 * 1) Any arachnid of the order

title: tickspider


text: tickspiders

title: tickspiders


text:
transfusionally

Adverb

 * 1) By means of transfusion

title: transfusionally


text: dàshòu

title: dàshòu


text:
transvitreal

Adjective

 * 1) Through or across the vitreous humour

title: transvitreal


text:
trieicosenoin

Noun

 * 1)  The triglyceride of eicosenoic acid

title: trieicosenoin


text:
phần cứng

Etymology
,.

Noun

 * 1)  hardware

title: phần cứng


text:
社會改革

Noun

 * 1) social reform

title: 社會改革


text: 社会改革

title: 社会改革


text: shèhuì gǎigé

title: shèhuì gǎigé


text:
swellan

Etymology
From, from.

Verb

 * 1) to swell

Etymology
From, from.

Verb

 * 1) to swell

title: swellan


text:
historical sociology

Noun

 * 1)  A branch of sociology that focuses on how societies develop through history.

Translations

 * Chinese:
 * Mandarin: 歷史社會學
 * Dutch: historische sociologie
 * Finnish: historiallinen sosiologia

title: historical sociology


text:
歷史社會學

Noun

 * 1)  historical sociology

title: 歷史社會學


text: 历史社会学

title: 历史社会学


text: lìshǐ shèhuìxué

title: lìshǐ shèhuìxué


text:
及物性

Noun

 * 1)  transitivity

title: 及物性