text:
Wikipedia talk:Cleanup/Archive 2

suggestion
ANCIENT LISTINGS and VERY OLD should be moved either to VfD or to Pages needing attention. thanks! Kingturtle 02:44, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

is Cleanup dying?
Articles are placed on Cleanup, but I don't see them being cleaned up. Is Cleanup dying? Kingturtle 18:25, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I use it all the time - it depends whether people can be bothered to copyedit and sort articles - which is a greater problem than cleanup. Secretlondon 18:29, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)
 * You (as I do) use it mostly to add entries that need Cleanup. But articles placed here are NOT being cleaned up, and the list keeps growing. A few days ago, I removed dozens of entries that had been sitting on this metapage for ages. This page contains nearly 200 entries! What is to be done?
 * we need to check to see if they've been improved enough and remove them from the list. If not we could list on VfD. I do clean up, I often put +sorted or +wikified next to pages. Actually pages needing attention is in a worse state. Secretlondon 18:45, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree. I recently did a dump from Cleanup, moving articles into VfD and Pages Needing Attention. I also removed some articles from Pages Needing Attention that seemed to have received attention. But there's a lot to still sift through. Has Cleanup just turned into another Pages Needing Attention? Kingturtle 18:48, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be any incentive to fix things here, whereas on VfD, there is an incentive of saving a page from being deleted. Is it worth trying the idea? Angela
 * I was just thinking about that. Seems like if you really want an article to get attention, you have to put it on VfD. What is the Subpages idea? Kingturtle 18:55, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * See above. Basically, to split cleanup into categories, according to what needs to be done, so people who like npoving can go to Cleanup/pov and people who like researching whether or not someone is famous can go to Cleanup/famous?. Angela 18:59, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * and an article that has lots wrong with has to be listed 4 or 5 times? Secretlondon 19:01, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)
 * Ooo, I like that idea. Secretlondon has a point. Maybe the last category could be "God Help Us!" or "Take Your Shots" or something like that. Kingturtle 19:04, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * I think further partitions via subpages will just drive cleanup listings further into obscurity. The categories are a good idea though, so maybe we could just split the main cleanup page via section headers?  I was skeptical of this cleanup page at first, but it seems to be a useful buffer between pages that aren't quite deletion-worthy, but would also languish for months at pages needing attention.  <<<>>>  I think one of the main problems with Cleanup right now is that there isn't a very clear policy on cleaning up the cleanup page.  It would be helpful if we set something firm like "After two weeks, listings that have been sufficiently improved to at least stub status will be removed.  All others will be moved to WP:PNA or WP:VFD as necessary."  Of course, this would still be somewhat arbitrary, but it would at least keep things moving, and perhaps give people some incentive to improve articles before they move on to "the next level". --Minesweeper 20:34, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)
 * I think that having the date that a page was added next to each entry or at least each subheading would be helpful. Maximus Rex 20:39, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't like categolizing. The simplicity always helps. How about simply archiving old listing if we want to reduce the length of the list? I disagree with that Cleanup is dying. It is useful place to put an article that does not make sense at all but when you are not sure it should be deleted or not. VfD should not be used as a place to list crap, mostly newbie experiments, but the listing should be more of editorial reasons. -- Taku 21:15, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

It definitely should not be archived. What would be the point of having dozens of archives of old rubbish articles? Either they are fixed or deleted. I can't see any point in archiving them if nothing is going to happen to them, but perhaps I'm just not enough of an eventualist. Angela 21:46, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Isn't it possible that someone might crawl the list to find out what he can do in wikipedia? I guess it is a matter of preference or perception. The bottom line is that the page functions. -- Taku 22:30, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:MyRedDice

Hi Martin, I was wondering why you redirected Votes for wikification and Votes for NPOVing. . I've suggested at Wikipedia talk:Cleanup that Cleanup be split into subpages like Wikification and POV, which would seem very similar to what those two pages used to be, but if there was a reason they didn't work before, perhaps it would be best not to. I realise it was a while ago, but do you you remember what the problems with the pages were that led them to be discontinued? Angela 18:20, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Please don't ressurect Votes for NPOVing - NPOV dispute turned out to be much better than Votes for NPOVing and similar things because:

 * NPOV dispute is attached to content - when content is fixed, dispute is removed.
 * Discussion on bias on the talk page, not scattered between talk page and random list elsewhere.
 * readers and editors are made aware of the dispute.
 * Much less housekeeping required.
 * Decentralised
 * Reduces impact from new folks leaping into debate without reading backlog

 * As a simple practical matter, I would strongly advocate against creating a competitor to NPOV dispute, which does a good job. Martin 00:27, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Are you saying that everything listed at Cleanup as being POV should actually have an NPOV dispute notice put on it rather than being left at Cleanup? Angela 01:23, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't want to dictate to the cleanup folks - what works for you, works for you. My personal opinion would be that if a page has been on cleanup for a week (say), and the only remaining problem is bias, and it isn't "irredeemably POV" (and hence in need of deletion), then the best approach might be to slap an NPOV dispute on it and drop it off the list, in favour of fresh instances of pages needing a cleanup. This will also help avoid becoming stale, as happened to pages needing attention. Martin 18:23, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Pages needing attention?
What's the difference between these two pages? -Smack 17:45, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Removing items from Cleanup
How do items get removed from cleanup? I can think of several easy cases where it seems clear that a page should be remmoved:
 * If the page in question is deleted
 * If the page in question is redirected

Some less clear cases:
 * When the issue has been resolved. For example, if a page is in need of Wikification, and someone Wikifies it.
 * Issue: How is it determined that the issue is resolved?
 * If the page is added to another, more "definitive" action list, e.g. VfD or one of its subpages.
 * How do we decide when that should happen?

And, then there's the troublesome:
 * When the page has languished here long enough without the issue being resolved.

I have a suggestion for resolving this issue: Create a section at the bottom of the page -- call it "Proposed Removals" or some such. If anyone thinks that a page should be removed, they list it in this section (without removing it from its original placement). The entry in Proposed Removals should include a signature with a date/time stamp. They should also include a brief reason for removal. If, after several days (5?) no one objects to the removal, the page is removed from this list. Anyone can "object" by simply removing the page name from the Proposed Removals section.

Comments?

 * Anthropos 16:15, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Bmills 16:17, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I disagree, though not strongly. My feeling is that the page is already very large, and having a compulsory waiting section for fixed articles adds to that. Can't people just be trusted to remove things that really are fixed? Angela. 05:22, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I've gone for a rather more aggressive approach - I've removed a load of entries that appear to me to be fixed. For anyone who distrusts my judgement, each removal is reproduced in the edit comment together with my reason for removal. I think that's all the process we really need - don't remove anything without saying why unless it unquestionably needs no further cleanup (e.g. article has been deleted). Onebyone 06:01, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

My Butchery (or a Server Glitch)
According to the page history, i deleted and then added an enormous stretch of Cleanup at a time when i thot i was failing repeatedly to get my Save done:

 * (cur) (last) . . 14:05, 2004 Jan 2 . . Jerzy (+ re Peace Pilgrim)
 * (cur) (last) . . 14:05, 2004 Jan 2 . . Jerzy
 * (cur) (last) . . 13:50, 2004 Jan 2 . . Jerzy (+ re Peace Pilgrim)
 * (cur) (last) . . 13:40, 2004 Jan 2 . . Jerzy (+ re PeacePilgrim)

(The two in question are the 14:05 ones; IIRC i used refresh several times when "server on strike" msgs followed my Save; sure looks like i retyped the summaries.) Per "(cur)" compare from just before, looks like there was no net damage but let me know if my help is needed in investigating either damage or the server weirdness that i suspect. Email link from my talk page is best way to contact me right now. --Jerzy 04:19, 2004 Jan 3 (UTC)

How about a cleanup custom message?
How about a cleanup custom message for talk pages? Something like  that can be used on discussion pages only? Sounds like a neat idea! :)

A few Wikipedians are using a similar message for the Puerto Rico discussion page. That way, the first thing that Wikipedians notice is that the article needs a clean up, helping accelerating the process.

I know this is not the correct place for requesting a feature, but I would like to hear other Wikipedians opinions about it.

-- Maio 09:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I've been wondering the same thing myself. I'd be in favour. Bmills 11:26, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

""

 * To be honest, I think this is creating unnecessary work for ourselves, adding and removing these notices as articles are listed and unlisted on Cleanup. If the article contains serious problems like severe bias or factual errors, then it should have a dispute marker on the page itself so that readers are warned. If the article just needs formatting, then this will be obvious from the article. If it's a stub, then that's also obvious from the article. Stuff like "needs a section on blah" should probably also be mentioned on the talk page, but for the most common cases the purpose of cleanup is to centralise information, and these headers are a distribution of "stuff" back out to each page. Btw, you should probably describe on the process page how to tell when the header should be removed - is it simply when the page is removed from cleanup? Onebyone 11:32, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Onebyone. A separate notice for articles listed in unnecessary, and there are already factual accuracy and NPOV dispute notices that can be added if a page needs these. Angela. 11:40, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * Shouldn't Talk pages have a cleanup explanation anyways? and shouldn't Talk pages be checked also after the page is removed from Cleanup? (These are just questions, please don't beleive that I'm taking a combative stance or that I desrespect you or your opinions -- after all, Wikipedians fight for the same causes.)

 * I totally disgress with you in regards of creating more work load. The main purpose for the custom message is to provide a way to automatically track Cleanup articles, by having a link on the article's Talk page that links to Cleanup. By using the "What links here" utility, work load on Cleanup is reduced as it eliminates the list/unlist process; consecutively, the possibility of removing the Cleanup page itself arises.

 * If someone notices a Talk page listed on the "What links here" utility, he would go directly to that page, instead of reading the long page that Cleanup is. This would eliminate the current issue created by Cleanup; that is, having and extremely summarized information of why the article has been marked as needing cleanup. Wikipedians wouldn't be editing Cleanup constantly, instead they would be editing the article's Talk page. It is a reverse engineering of what Cleanup is currently: Talk pages will point to Cleanup, instead of Cleanup pointing to articles.

 * I'm pretty sure that most people will know, by simple logic, that when all the 'reasons for cleanup' are handled, they should remove the header (NPOV disputes work the same way). Have in mind that the message will have a line that says, "Read this discussion page for more information" -- in other words, the reasons for cleanup will be listed in-detail on the discussion page. If he/she notices that all issues have been resolved, he/she will remove the header. There could also be a notice on the header that says, "After all issues have been resolved, please remove this message blah blah blah", similarly to the instructions given in Cleanup.

 * Thanks for your response and concenrs on this matter. Again, I'm expressing my POVs, don't think that I'm replying in a combative stance -- I appreciate your replies, and your own POV regarding this. They all help constructively. :)

 * Nothing but <3, --Maio 08:44, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * I like the fact this page is quick to use, anonymous and centralised. Your proposal would take away all these advantages. I also think Cleanup would be used even less if this were done as there would be no incentive to fixing an item in order to delist it if it weren't actually listed on this page. Angela. 11:40, Jan 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * How about this - what you describe is a different process from what we currently have on cleanup. I think there are enough people who like cleanup that cleanup is worth keeping. So what might be better is to implement your thing under a new name for a while and see how it goes. I think one of the main advantages of cleanup as it stands is that there's pressure to keep the size of the page down, which means that I personally fix a lot of articles that I wouldn't bother with if it was just a "what links here" list of unlimited size.
 * By the way, I agree that you aren't being combative, and I hope I'm not either... Onebyone 14:50, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Just adding my vote for a custom "This page has been listed on Cleanup." message. jengod 01:07, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

I think we as a rule should NOT add a cleanup msg on the pages we list. Look at Aust, South Gloucestershire, for example; it has BOTH the stub and the cleanup msg, and in this case there is really no difference in the message of the two msgs. The msg:stub is the tool of stub-markup; for cleanup, our tool is this central list. Thus, I propose, only certain classes of cleanup cases should be marked with msg:cleanup, i.e. in the cases where msg:cleanup does not mean the same as msg:stub. — Sverdrup 13:25, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia talk:Cleanup/Archive 2


text:
Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15

Length
This page is ridiculously long. Ridiculously. 2607:FEA8:3240:6BD0:C068:4F7F:82CB:817B (talk) 00:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the article could be split to reduce its length. The "Operational history" section could probably be split into Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 operational history. -  ZLEA  T \ C 03:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not all that long at just under 100,000 bytes, the recommended length for Wikipedia articles. I'd wait until it's least 120,000 bytes before splitting anything. That's not to say that it shouldn't be trimmed of any superfluous fluff. I'd also remove the unsourced immediately information outright, starting with the mostly unsourced "Surviving aircraft" section. BilCat (talk) 04:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Mig variants
Im looking at the MiG 15 varients and i am curious about the varient listed as Mig 15U. I have been looking for this vehicle and cant even find anything proving its existence. Im simply curious about this aircraft and would like to learn about the weapon swiveling device or (Ustanovka) as listed. If i could talk to the writer of this wiki or perhaps someone who knows about this vehicle that would be great. Gamuru10 (talk) 20:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I recently reworked the Variants section of this article using various sources I found at my university's library. The info on the MiG-15U came from the book MiG-15 in action by Hans-Heiri Stapfer.  I do not know how to contact Stapfer, but there is an article on him in the German Wikipedia at Hans-Heiri Stapfer. -  ZLEA  T \ C 21:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help, have a good day. Gamuru10 (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

"Lim1" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lim1&redirect=no Lim1] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. 1234qwer1234qwer4 14:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Change main image
I think we should change the main image showcasing the two seater MiG-15 to a normal single seat MiG-15 as the vast majority of them were single seaters. Duckducklightning (talk) 03:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have a specific image in mind? - ZLEA  T \ C 03:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15


text:
R. Brent Tully

Richard Brent Tully (born March 9, 1943) is a Canadian-born American astronomer at the Institute for Astronomy in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Born in Toronto, Ontario, and raised in Vancouver, British Columbia, Tully's specialty is the astrophysics of galaxies. With J. Richard Fisher, he proposed the Tully–Fisher relation, which shows that the luminosity of a galaxy and the orbital velocities of its stars are correlated. This relation can be used to determine the distances of galaxies and, by inference, the size and age of the universe. His books The Nearby Galaxies Atlas & Catalog published in 1988 give the 3D locations for 2,400 galaxies within 130 million light years of Earth. A particularly remarkable discovery was that our Milky Way galaxy lies adjacent a vast underdense region that Tully called the Local Void. A more extended compilation of 30,000 galaxies within a cube of diameter 700 million light years centered on Earth can be visually navigated with the planetarium computer software Starry Night Pro, where the data is called the Tully Database.

Tully, along with colleagues Helene Courtois, Daniel Pomarede, and Yehuda Hoffman, have compiled and analyzed galaxy distances and deviations of galaxy motions from cosmic expansion within the Cosmicflows program. Noteworthy discoveries have been the full extent of our home supercluster of galaxies, given the name Laniakea Supercluster, and of the adjacent, very large  South Pole Wall  of galaxies. Cumulatively, the large scale structure in the distribution of matter in a volume of diameter 1.3 billion light years centered on our location mapped by Tully and his colleagues reasonably accounts for the motion of our Local Group  of galaxies of over 600 kilometers/second although there remains the possibility of influences from even larger scales.

Brent Tully received numerous awards and recognitions, among which the Viktor Ambartsumian Prize and the Gruber Prize in Cosmology, both in 2014.

title: R. Brent Tully


text:
Democratic Party of Equatorial Guinea

The Democratic Party of Equatorial Guinea (Partido Democrático de Guinea Ecuatorial, abbreviated PDGE) is the ruling political party in Equatorial Guinea. It was established by President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo on 11 October 1987.

Prior to 1991, the PDGE was the sole legal political organization in the country. Still, the PDGE has been the dominant party since its inception, and it typically wins almost all seats in the Parliament. In the 2004 legislative election, 98 of 100 seats were won by either PDGE members or "opposition" parties that support Obiang; in the 2008 legislative election, the PDGE and its allies won a total of 99 out of 100 seats. There have never been more than eight true opposition deputies in the lower house, and the PDGE and its allies have won every seat in the upper chamber since its inception in 2013. Consequently, there is no substantive opposition to presidential decisions.

Similarly, Obiang typically wins 95 to 99% of the vote in presidential elections, with the opposition regularly calling for boycotts. In the 2016 presidential election, however, Obiang won around 93% of the vote, a new low for his presidency.

The party has an extremely narrow base, which is the Esangui clan of the Fang tribe, located in the Mongomo region of Río Muni. Since independence in 1968, Equatorial Guinea has been ruled by a single family; the first president, Francisco Macías Nguema, was overthrown by his nephew, Obiang, in the 1979 coup d'état. The party has been criticized for acting in a very authoritarian manner and teaming up with the government to inform on political dissidents. The party is considered by the vast majority of international observers to be corrupt.

Stances
The PDGE has little in the way of a platform or guiding ideology other than support for Obiang, although it has sometimes been described as pseudo-populist. One of its few concrete policy stances is support of foreign investment in the oil sector. Some of the few other tenets of the PDGE are militarism and anti-separatism (which often amounts to Fang chauvinism).

The community leaders in all of rural Equatorial Guinea are strongly pressured to be members of the party, and also pressure citizens throughout their communities into joining. Although almost all the highest placed political appointments are held by former soldiers, the core military force, the Army, remains somewhat underfunded in favour of naval and air-force maintenance. Government expenditures are equal to less than 10% of GDP, with military expenditures accounting for roughly 25-35% of that figure. The amount of the budget spent on schooling, healthcare and other such investments is in proximity to the military budget. The constitution guarantees that the government will have a monopoly in certain industries, although much has been done to privatise these industries, in similar fashion to the way oil drilling was privatised. The party also has a minister for women, and has in recent years pursued a female empowerment agenda.

title: Democratic Party of Equatorial Guinea


text:
High and tight

The high and tight is a military variant of the crew cut. It is a very short hairstyle, characterized by the back and sides of the head being shaved to the skin and the option for the top to be blended or faded into slightly longer hair. It is most commonly worn by men in the U.S. armed forces. It is also popular with law enforcement officers and other public safety personnel. Although "high and tight" is the primary term used in military and law enforcement, the same haircut is sometimes referred to by civilians as a "walker".

Styling
While many variations of the style exist, the one common feature is that all of the hair on the sides and back of the head is clipped very close, usually 1/16 in or shorter, up to a point above the temples (referring to the "high" part of its name). A sharp line delineates the boundary between the close-cut sides and back and the longer top portion (referring to the "tight" part of its name). The crown of the head is spared the closest shaving to safely accommodate the weight of a combat helmet. The length of the top portion may vary, usually being 5–10 mm, but sometimes left long enough to comb. The back and sides of the head are sometimes shaved completely with a razor.

According to U.S. Air Force instructions, U.S. military haircuts must have: "A tapered appearance on both sides and the back of the head, both with and without headgear. A tapered appearance is one that when viewed from any angle outlines the member's hair so that it conforms to the shape of the head, curving inward to the natural termination point without eccentric directional flow, twists or spiking."

Usage
Beginning in the late 1980s, the high and tight crossed over into civilian life, being embraced first by mostly young black males (see hi-top fade) before spreading to other groups. From the 1990s to the present day, the hairstyle has also been popular among Syrian, Egyptian and Moroccan youths.

In Indonesia, the high and tight is known as Cepak (pronounced "Cheu-pak") and is worn by all military and some police personnel, particularly those serving in paramilitary units. The national identity of a male Indonesian Armed Forces member is indicated by this haircut; it is also worn by students of other service academies in the country. Officers of general rank rarely wear the high and tight, with a notable exception being Minister of Defense Ryamizard Ryacudu.

Horseshoe flattop
In this version of the high and tight, the top of the head is clipped in a flattop style, with the hair short enough that the scalp is plainly visible along the centerline of the anteroposterior axis of the head. This creates the distinctive appearance of seemingly having a horseshoe-shaped hairstyle. The exposed scalp is sometimes referred to as a "landing strip".

Recon
This version has higher boundaries, with the only hair present starting well above the crown of the head. The name is a reference to the haircut's association with reconnaissance units of the U.S. Army, Marines, and Navy. The "recon" can also be cut short on the top to incorporate the look of the horseshoe flattop.

title: High and tight


text:
Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21

F-16
At best this is a minor incident in the history of the aircraft and so wP:undue comes into play.Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * One dogfight in many, agree. Vici Vidi (talk) 06:57, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Again there is no evidence India shot down an f-16. Indian admits they lost a Mig-21. This article now contains a falsehood.Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is disruptive, the page was rightly protected. While an upgraded MiG-21 bison could plausibly shoot down an early model F-16, it is uncertain this actually happened. Even if it did happen, it is an insignificant event. Vici Vidi (talk) 06:10, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Not again, there is no evidence that India shot down an f-16, it is an unsubstantiated claim and has no place in this article.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

It is an unsubstantiated claim, and if it keeps on being added I will ask for page protection. Stop now.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @: Its not an unsubstantiated claim. In the air exercices of 2005, US pilots were impressed with the performace of IAF's Mig-21 Bisons. In 2008 too, a senior USAF officer praised the IAF's Mig-21 Bisons. If bisons can impress USAF, there is no reason it cannot shoot down an aircraft produced by it. 8 pieces of clinching evidence that show how IAF’s Abhinandan shot down a Pakistani F-16 - The Print is a must read for you.

 * As far as Pak's denial is concerned, it lied too many times during the entire episode. Lets see the sequence of events:
 * Pakistani jets intruded the Indian airspace on 27 Feb 2023. Abhinandan's aircraft fell. In its briefing of same day, Indian MEA stated that a Pakistani jet (without naming it) was shot down by IAF's Mig-21 Bison. On the same day Indian media reported that the Pakistani aircraft which fell was none other than F-16. Responding to these reports, Pakistan said that no F-16s were even used in the entire operation.(Lie No 1) In the same media briefing Pakistan claimed it has two Indian pilots in its custody.(Lie No 2)
 * In the evening itself Pakistan changed statement and now said they have only one Indian pilot in its custody.(Lie No 2 exposed by Pakistan itself)
 * On 28th Feb 2019, IAF debunked Pakistani claim of not using F-16s in the operation by showing parts of an AMRAAM missile and claimed that its Mig-21 indeed performed an F-16 kill before getting shot down.
 * On 2nd April 2019, Pakistan admits using F-16s in the operation saying it retains the right to use "anything and everything" in its self-defence.(Pakistan itself exposing its Lie No 1)
 * As per eye witnesses' accounts, as many as three parachutes were spotted on the day of clashes, all within Pakistani side.
 * On 5 April 2019, it was reported in media that US has conducted a count of Pakistani F-16s and no F-16 was found to be missing.
 * This lie was debunked by Pentagon which said no such count took place.
 * On 8 April 2019, IAF shared radar images with media reiterating that its Mig-21 downed a Pak's F-16.

 * In and all, we can see that Pakistan lacks credibility here. They lied, later took u-turns and its all in public domain. The debris fell in Pakistan due to which they could do cover up.

 * We still can't say that its a confirmed kill but if you ask whose claims are backed by stronger evidences, thats India. --Yoonadue (talk) 20:16, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just because it's not unlikely does not mean that it is not unsubstantiated. Sure Pakistan may have attempted to spread disinformation, but that doesn't mean we should just accept India's claims as fact.  The fact that India has no wreckage to show makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to substantiate the claim unless Pakistan itself confirms it. -  ZLEA  T \ C 20:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @: Please check the wording that I added. I wasn't adding the incident as a fact but a claim, a claim which is substantial enough for inclusion here considering the evidences provided by India and Pakistan admitting its lies. --Yoonadue (talk) 02:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There is nothing substantial about it. It's just one of hundreds of unconfirmed kill claims attributed to the MiG-21.  If it were some sort of exceptional claim, such as a first generation MiG-21 shooting down an F-16, then it might be substantial enough to be included here, but the Bison is a heavily upgraded variant of a third-generation MiG-21. -  ZLEA  T \ C 04:16, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Excaty, this is wp:undue, as well as a wp:npov violation, what makes this claim special? Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes (by the way) it is unsubstantiated as if it was substantiated non-Indian RS would have said an F-16 has been shot down. Indoa's claim has not been independently verified.12:01, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

@ and : I can see both of you being too adamant over non- inclusion of Indian claim. I am aware of WP:CIVILITY, but I don't find your behaviour in-line with WP:NPOV. You are exaggerating things to suit your agenda. You say there are hundreds of unconfirmed kills attributed to Mig-21 which are not part of this page. Are you SURE? Tell me how many of those instances had opponents openly taking U-turns in public domain like Pakistanis did here? In how many cases, was the American media openly making false claims of US counting the aircraft of Pakistani inventory? In how many cases, did the claimant addressed media multiple times to reiterate its claim along with the evidence like radar images? Indian claims are strong and there have been no inconsistency in its claim since the very first day. --Yoonadue (talk) 09:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant, its an unconfirmed claim that tells us nothing. Slatersteven (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Repeating the same thing again and again is irrelevant. Yoonadue (talk) 11:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * OK,.let's try this, do any non indian RS say (in their words) says India shot down an F-16? Also read wp:undue, is this one claim really all that significant in the history of the aircraft? Slatersteven (talk) 11:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh I see the user above is trying to push their narrative across various articles I think everyone here will find that non-Indian RS and non-Pakistani RS's cast major doubts over Indian claims considering India went into a propaganda overdrive to save face from the confirmed downing of their mig-21 any Indian source brought here as proof should be considered for comedic and propaganda value only there is zero evidence from the Indian side but plenty of proof that a mig-21 was shot down. Mrdabalina (talk) 12:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have previously suggested creating an article that focuses solely on Indo-Pakistan aerial victory claims where it can be monitored closely, to steward these claims and counter-claims in aircraft type articles (F-104, Gnat, F-86 Sabre etc) is near impossible, very tedious and time consuming. Per UNDUE there should be little coverage in these articles with a link to the section in the new article. This has worked very well for Aircraft in fiction which was created for the same reason, to remove lengthy fancruft from articles, it also complies with summary style (WP:SUMMARY). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  12:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Nay, nay and thirce nay. There is no way we should create a fork whose sole purpose is to allow various unsubstantiated claims. I suspect this might well violate wp:not. Slatersteven (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I am bowing out now, I have said enough, time for new voices to have their say. Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I think you have misunderstood, the claims would be reverted instantly if not referenced to a very reliable source. In these aircraft type articles incorrect claims are not spotted and dealt with for years. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  12:59, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes I did, and this makes it worse, as why do we even need an article on their claims? Do we do this for anyone else? This seems to me to be a violation of wp:not, we are creating a special fork so propagandists can post claims, wp:undue is there for a reason, and one reason is so we do not clutter up articles with trivia. In fact (if anything) this is causing me to think we need to remove claims of kills unless genuinely notable. Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We have Confirmation and overclaiming of aerial victories during World War II and probably more. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  13:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Over the past few years, I have been accused by editors from both sides of having either a pro-Pakistan or pro-India bias or agenda. In truth, I simply don’t care.  My main interest is aviation, and some articles just happen to overlap with this specific conflict.  As a show of good faith, I will ignore your blatant disregard for WP:AGF just this once and tell you what I told the others.  Warring countries lie.  They’ve been doing it since the first war ever fought.  It can take years or even decades after a war ends before historians can piece together an accurate picture of what happened.  It doesn’t matter that one country was caught lying, for all we know the other country could be embellishing their claims as well.  Unless and until India’s claims are verified by a third-party or Pakistan themselves, they are no more worthy of inclusion than any of the other unverified kills by a MiG-21.  And no, I will not give you any examples of other unverified claims as it is not worth my time to comb through hundreds of news articles just to prove that India’s claim is not worth inclusion in this article.  It is on you to prove that it is worthy of inclusion over the hundreds of other claims, and so far you have not done that. -  ZLEA  T \ C 20:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I wish to clarify that I am not asking for inclusion of an assertive statement like "Mig downed F-16" but rather in a claim manner like "India claimed to have downed an F-16 but Pakistan denied it." We have no conclusive evidence to confirm Indian or Pakistani claim but Pakistan's u-turns over usage of F-16 and the number of captured Indian pilots somewhat puts weight to Indian claim. --Yoonadue (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It does not put weight on India’s claim. It just shows that Pakistan has been engaging in the age-old tradition of spreading disinformation during a conflict.  India’s claims are not more notable or even trustworthy because of this fact. -  ZLEA  T \ C 21:14, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

No Operational History - USSR/Russia
There's a single sentence listing for Mig-21s in the List of Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 operators#Soviet Union, but other than that there seems to be next to nothing detailing the Mi-21's operational history in Soviet or Russian service. Seems like a significant omission. Is there a reason for this? 180.150.113.30 (talk) 05:06, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That section is about wartime use? Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No, Operational History is not (only) Combat History. Most Wiki pages about military AC include this even if there was no combat/wartime use, and do so rightly and importantly!
 * The SU was the largest user and developed the ac! Including and describing the different branches of the soviet military using the Mig-21 is imho mandatory.
 * When did which squadrons in which locations recieved which variant of the Mig-21? When were they retired? How many did they operate, in total and broken down to variants and also branches?
 * How was the accident rate?
 * Incidents of intercepting AC violating soviet airspace?
 * Incidents of soviet or warsaw pact Mig-21s straying into western airspace?
 * (I know both did happen)
 * Involvement in Afgahnistan war if it happened, and why not if it didn´t happen? Truedings (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Claimed Kill Numbers
The article makes heavy use of claimed kill numbers without seeming to verify or put them in context. Claimed shootdowns historically wildly overestimate the number of aircraft downed and should be put into context. 153.90.167.151 (talk) 02:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Finding verified kill numbers is all but impossible as verifying kill numbers is usually very low on a warring military's list of priorities. If you have a reliable source that calls into question any of the claimed kill numbers, then we may be able to add the relevant information to the article.  A general "but claimed kill numbers are often inflated" from a source that has nothing to do with any of the specific claimed kills in this article would likely be considered WP:SYNTH. -  ZLEA  T \ C 03:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21


text:
Netsky (computer worm)

Netsky is a prolific family of computer worms which affect Microsoft Windows operating systems. The first variant appeared on Monday, February 16, 2004. The "B" variant was the first family member to find its way into mass distribution. It appeared on Wednesday, February 18, 2004. 18-year-old Sven Jaschan of Germany confessed to having written these, and other worms, such as Sasser.

Although individual functions vary widely from virus to virus, the Netsky family perhaps is most famous for comments contained within the code of its variants insulting the authors of the Bagle and Mydoom worm families and, in some cases, routines that removed versions of these viruses. The "war" as it was referred to in the media caused a steady increase in the number of variant viruses produced in these families. As of June 2004, Bagle had approximately 28, Netsky approximately 29, and MyDoom approximately 10.

Other symptoms of Netsky included beeping sounds on specified dates, usually in the morning hours.

The worm was sent out as an e-mail, enticing recipients to open an attachment. Once opened, the attached program would scan the computer for e-mail addresses and e-mail itself to all addresses found.

Until October 2006, the P variant of this virus remained the most prevalent virus being sent in e-mail throughout the world, despite being over two and a half years old. It was surpassed by a variant from the Stration malware family in November 2006.

Drum and bass musician Netsky has based his artist name on this computer worm. The idea behind it was that there was a chance people would download the virus if they searched the internet to illegally download his music.

title: Netsky (computer worm)


text:
Diet Rite

Diet Rite was an American brand of no-calorie soft drinks that was originally distributed by the RC Cola company.

History
Diet Rite was introduced in 1955 and initially released as a dietetic product, but was introduced nationwide and marketed to the general public as a healthful beverage in 1962. The original formula was sweetened with cyclamate and saccharin. After cyclamate was banned in 1969, it was removed from the product. NutraSweet brand aspartame was added upon its introduction to the market, and in 1987 the saccharin was replaced entirely with the complete elimination of caffeine. In the 1990s, several fruit-flavored varieties of Diet Rite were introduced.

In 2000, the line was reformulated yet again, this time to replace aspartame with Splenda brand sucralose and Sunnet brand acesulfame potassium. It became the first major diet soda in the United States to use neither aspartame nor saccharin as a sweetener. In 2005, "Pure Zero" was added to the name, and a cherry cola flavor was introduced in 2006.

Today it is owned by and distributed by Keurig Dr Pepper.

Advertising
In the early 1960s The Paris Sisters sang a jingle for a Diet Rite television commercial, with the line "Stay thin with the best-tasting cola of all!".

title: Diet Rite


text:
North Brookfield

North Brookfield is the name of some places in the United States:

 * North Brookfield, Massachusetts, a New England town
 * North Brookfield (CDP), Massachusetts, the main village in the town
 * North Brookfield, New York, a hamlet

title: North Brookfield


text:
J. Richard Fisher

James Richard Fisher (born December 10, 1943) is an American astronomer. He received his Ph.D. in Astronomy in 1972 from the University of Maryland, College Park and his B.S. in Physics in 1965 from the Pennsylvania State University, University Park.

Education and research
Much of Fisher's career has involved radio astronomy instrumentation, including telescope feed design, radio frequency interference mitigation, and signal processing. He joined NRAO in 1972 at the Green Bank, West Virginia site. He was part of the team that conceived and designed the 100-meter Green Bank Telescope there. He moved to the Central Development Lab at the Charlottesville NRAO headquarters in 2005, where he retired in 2012 but continues to be active in instrumentation projects.

In 1978 through 1980 he spent 18 months at the Radiophysics Laboratory of CSIRO in Sydney, Australia, and on the return trip spent 2 months at the Raman Research Institute in Bangalore, India.

Along with R. Brent Tully, he proposed the Tully–Fisher relation, a correlation between the luminosity of a galaxy and the width of emission lines in its spectrum.

title: J. Richard Fisher


text:
Talk:Car body style

Van
I'm not convinced that van counts as a "car" type. I did add people carrier myself - but that makes sense - as they are all car derivations of the early passenger vans. (I.E. The still present Volkswagen Caravelle isn't a car, it is a type of van).

Zoney 08:05, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * weeeellll... I added it, and my thinking was that many small vans are really cars with a particular body style (a car body style). I'm not sure if you're a UK resident, but think of the Ford Escort, Bedford Beagle, Marina... they are all basically cars with van type bodies. If they don't get put here, then where would they go? Graham 10:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I hadn't thought of that - I've amended the section (I briefly removed it before I saw your comment) to point out what a van is in the context of a car model. While the models you've mentioned are types of cars, as possibly are the half-car/half-van small utility vehicles such as Ford Courier and Fiat Doblò, I don't think Volkswagen Transporter, Ford Transit etc. count! (Maybe they do - am I wrong here?) Zoney 12:29, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Isn't CDV (Car-derived Van) an appropriate term for the van body style you are talking about? It makes it obvious that we're not talking larger commercial vehicles. Or is CDV a manufacturer-specific word (I know Rover use it on their 25 Commerce Van)? Pseudonym 16:35, 7 September 2004 (UTC)

 * It's a manufacturer specific term. In words rather than initials, it might make mroe sense, but even so ... —Morven 20:06, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Over here, the only term I've seen used is "tall wagon" for things like the Mitsubishi Colt Vista and Honda Civic wagon thingy. We don't have the Courier...--SFoskett 20:11, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

Removed

 * Grand Tourer (a.k.a Gran Tourismo or GT): sporty or high performance variant of a car designed for long tours in comfort rather than shorter bursts of speed. This type of vehicle would usually have a sedan or coupé style of body rather than a distinct style of its own, but with a notably more luxurious interior than average.

since in my opinion a GT is a class of car rather than a body style - this belongs in the Car classification article. —Morven 10:44, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Agree, Zoney 12:30, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Sportshatch
I don't think that Sportshatch should be included as a body style because it a synonym for other styles, not a distinct style in itself. Whilst it may be argued that other synonyms are included, such as the British word saloon for a sedan, these are justifiable because they are not simply words manufacturers have invented for their cars. By including manufacturer invented words and terms we would have to include Sports Activity Vehicle (BMW SUVs), Avant (Audi estates/station wagons), Sportscross (Lexus estates/station wagons) and probably many others. 999 11:15, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, but I don't really see anything wrong with that. The point is, a USER of WP might be thinking, ummm, I wonder what a Sportshatch is, or Sports Activity Vehicle, etc. If they do a search, it will turn up nothing and so they're none the wiser, whereas in fact these terms really have some relation to car body styles. Keeping the article "pure" for the sake of it isn't helpful to the user, who ultimately is the person we are serving here. Graham 12:53, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * My aim isn't 'purity', it is to present the best article for the majority of users. I would imagine that most users who come to this article are interested in the actual body styles themselves, not the names that manufacturers use to describe body styles (of which I'm sure there are many). They will probably find it easier if there is not a load of synonyms mixed up amongst the unique body styles. However, I do agree that some users will be interested in particular names and these need to be explained. Remember though, unless you create separate articles for each one, doing a search will not find anything. I think that explanations of these names are most relevant on the individual manufacturer pages. Furthermore, I think that if someone is interested in for example, what an Avant is, they are far more likely to go to the Audi page than the car body style page, especially if they have heard or read Avant in context. Therefore, I suggest that the car body style page should stick to only the most commonly used words, whilst names such as Avant should be explained in the manufacturer pages, possibly with a link to the car body style page. 999 19:45, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * One day we can hope that WP's search facility is fully reinstated and works as it should - after what is an encyclopedia without it? ;-) Your argument is reasonable, and I won't be too upset if sporthatch et. al. gets moved elsewhere. It strikes me though that a resaonable compromise would simply be to create a separate section in this article where manufacturers' made-up terms could be grouped (we'd need a better section heading than that of course!). What do you think? Graham 07:48, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, a separate section in this article sounds like a good compromise. I'll try to come up with an appropriate heading for it. With regards searching, I agree that it would be nice if the search facility was fully operational, but doing a Google search has worked pretty well for me on the occasions I have used it. 999 08:53, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I've added a section as discussed above. Obviously I intend to add more to it but for now it's just a rough idea. I'd like people's opinions on what they think of it and how it should be improved. Thanks, 999 19:09, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Why did you (999) also change the Van (road vehicle) link back to the disamb Van? Is it not better to link directly to an article rather than a disamb page? MH 09:32, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

 * Sorry. I didn't even realise I had done that. It must relate to van being directly above the section I was editing but I can't think exactly what happened. Fixed now. 999 09:43, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd like to suggest that "combi coupé" might appropriately be moved to the new section. I'd never heard of it, or of "wagonback" before I read this page, and the article it links to strongly suggests these terms only apply to Saabs, so I'm thinking that company made them up.  RivGuySC 03:21, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Agree. I'll start adding more soon. 999 09:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reverted removal of targa top explanation
I disagree with removing the explanation of a targa top simply because there's an article on it. There are articles on most of the other body styles too. This page is intended as a summary. —Morven 06:20, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe then the summary should be rewritten as it now is incorrect, specifically the B-pillar reference of the given example, Fiat X1/9 (see picture in the Targa top article, as that does not have any B-pillars. MH 11:08, 2004 Jun 12 (UTC)

 * Agree with reinstating it, as I wrote it, but maybe I mean C pillars then - it certainly has very substantial roof pillars at the rear, whatever they're called (I assumed B being the ones next along from A at the front - the example being a 2-seater car there is no possibility of an intermediate pillar between the front and back, and being mid-engined makes these more B pillar than C pillar to my mind). Perhaps some explanation is called for somewhere, exactly what is meant by A, B and C pillars? This is an encyclopedia after all. Graham 08:29, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Kammback
Anybody want to make a try at this odd word? I don't know where it comes from or exactly what it means. All I can remember that they used to call the Vega wagon one, but it looked pretty much like a wagon to me. Did GM make it up? Vega Wagon  RivGuySC 01:34, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * The AMC Gremlin also had that word used for it, so I don't think it was a GM thing ... —Morven 02:00, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Researched it: see Kammback. German aerodynamicist Wunibald Kamm invented the concept of the cut-off tail for sports cars, showing that cutting off the end of a teardrop shape actually made it better.  Thus, cars with a tapered and then chopped off rear shape are correctly Kammbacks, though the term has pretty much died out.  Seems that GM and AMC used it mostly as another term for 'station wagon' or 'hatchback', though. —Morven 20:44, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Excellent research! I'd always wanted to know this.  But I think the explanation on the main page still needs work--"car with a rear that tapered to half maximum cross section then abruptly cut off" doesn't convey a complete idea to me.  What you said above seems clearer, actually.   RivGuySC 22:07, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Better? I trimmed it to a much shorter version, we can add to this if we need. Maybe an example car is needed? —Morven 03:14, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, much clearer, IMHO. A picture of an example would be good, but I don't exactly know what vehicle I would nominate.  I looked at my Riviera yesterday, thinking about this--it has quite a tapered tail, but I don't know if it's chopped off enough to qualify.  RivGuySC 14:25, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * The Honda CRX is an excellent example of Kammback-inspired styling. I always thought it was stupid looking, but now I understand that it's stupid looking with a practical reason in mind.

Dear Morven,

Car body styles are - I think - words or combinations of words commonly used by car manufacturers. Please note that AVANT (a word mark) is Community Trade mark Registration No. 000019422 owned by Audi AG of Germany. (See http://oami.eu.int/en/CTMOnline/RequestManager/Detail). Consequently, this word is not a car body style.

Regards, --Millisits 23:34, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * It is, however, Audi's trademarked term for station wagon/estate car. Therefore, it should be here as a translation between the Audi term and those in general use. Note that there is no hint that it has usage outside of Audi, but when used by Audi it means a very specific style of car. —Morven 07:20, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

Hi Morven,

I am not really convinced that Wikipedia needs proprietary words (i.e. trademarks) among generic terms 'without clear specification such as Avant (a trademark of Audi for.... or Variant (a trademark of Volkswagen for... or Verso (a trademark of Toyota for... Or a special sub-list'' can be helpful in this entry to indicate Everyday usage of trademarks (words) cannot lead to genericize these trademarks (see: Genericized trademarks). Editors of dictionaries such as Webster, take special care of this phaenomenon.

--Millisits 17:18, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * We are not a dictionary; thus, things are different. I don't think that we have a duty to trademark holders to note every time we use a trademarked word.  We are using Avant here in a way that does not dilute Audi's trademark in any case; we are simply saying that when Audi uses "Avant" in a car's name, this is what it means.  There might be an improvement in wording possible, of course. —Morven 04:04, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

"Orthogonal"
Could somebody explain what is meant by "These (...body...) styles are largely (though not completely) orthogonal to a car's classification in terms of price, size and intended broad market"? Sounds a bit nonsensical to me. mat_x 21:01, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Meaning (though this is probably not the best wording) that we're not talking about attributes of price, size and (largely) market segment, except inasmuch as body style influences market segment. Size and body style are largely orthogonal, using that word in the sense a computer programmer might use it; they're independent variables, they can be seperate axes on a chart.  One can have a compact coupe, a mid-size coupe, a full-size coupe; conversely, one can have a compact coupe, a compact sedan, a compact roadster.

 * If you can think of a better way to word that, please feel free to try it for size! —Morven 07:16, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * I have tried 'independent' to replace 'orthogonal' with a rather less 'tech-speak' word. How does that read? —Morven 07:19, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * Tcha, compscis. I've never heard 'orthogonal' used to describe anything that isn't literally at 'right-angles' to something else, that's why I had no idea what was meant, to suggest a replacement. In the event that I'm being naive I'm happy for it to remain as it was. As long as you specify the inner product that you're using :-} -- mat_x 08:47, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I would point out that any good dictionary mentions that "orthogonal" is used in a more metaphorical sense quite often ... but since a more common word can substitute, let's leave it like that. Math majors.  Always so literal ... —Morven 10:02, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC) (grinning)

 * I did check out dictionary.com actually, I don't like to be too gung-ho. mat_x 12:54, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ran across a good article on coachbuilding types and terminology. It's on a page that's way too long, though, so you'll have to keep scrolling down or else search for THE RETURN OF THE BROUGHAM. RivGuySC 23:28, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Targa
Is the use of Targa meaning targa Top actually tradmarked by Porsche as stated? Since the 911 Targa is named after the Targa Florio rally, I had always understood that the targa top itself was too - since many cars of that era that took part in the rally were open topped in this way, but having rollover bars added for safety compliance, so the targa style originated from that.Graham 01:49, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't say as to the trademark issue, but my best guess is that Targa as a coachbuilding term probably comes from the car and not the race. The Targa Florio was never very famous outside Europe, whereas the 911 Targa was known worldwide (or pretty close to it). As additional evidence, Ford produced wrapover bands in the 50's (see the '55 pic in the Ford Crown Victoria article), but such things never became known as Targa bands until the Porche came out in the late 60's. RivGuySC 04:39, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Roof
Can anybody add a classification by car roof type ??? (are there any other general criteria for rational classification)?.

Need pictures
We need lots and lots of pictures. Pictures and photos are faster to absorb. When I've got the hang of copyright etc i'll come back here Jago25 98 09:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)jago25_98
 * How about ilustrations instead of pictures? Wouldn't it be easier if someone (and I am completely and shamelesly pushing this job for somebody else) drew the designs, in a standard way? We'd need an artist of sorts, but I guess it would be easier than to hunt for actual car pictures. Daniel Trielli 02:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

2+2
Given how comprehensive this list is, is there any good reason why 2+2 is listed as an "also known as..." rather than being a main entry in the list? I think having any significant term such as that in the main list would be easier for readers. – Kieran T  ( talk  19:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Jeep
Yes, another Jeep nut... anyhow, I know the word "jeep" is not an official car body style, but I am changing the wording of the defenition here to dis-clude the statement of the word's origin and instead refer the reader to the Jeep page & section where they can get the info and make a decision for themselves. 17:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Entirely support your desire to move the discussion to the appropriate page, but I suspect saying "...can be researched on the...page." falls foul of Wikipedia's guidelines about avoiding self-reference. It would be better to reword it to include the link but not implicity direct people to click it. – Kieran T  ( talk  17:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Dead external link...
The external link for basic car body terminology was found to be dead on 15 Dec, 2006. Could someone verify that this is not server downtime or a bad DNS problem. --Pauljs75 07:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

4 door vs 5 door
I came to the Car Body Style page mainly (but not only) to find out what the REAL definition of a 5 door versus a 4 door car is. On this page, and on the pages of the spesific body styles, I have gleaned some information about this, but I am still not entirely sure.

Could anyone (who know the definition) include a small section on what separates a 5 door from a 4 door car? And of course at the same time, what separates a 3 door from a 2 door car.

Just to mention what I have gleaned. It seems that a a 4 door sedan has a luggage compartment that is completely sealed off from the rest of the car. Whereas in a 5 door sedan, the interior of the car can be accessed from the trunk lid as well. Probably (usually) by the trunk lid being a hatchback which includes the rear window.

However, I am uncertain as to whether an (apparantly) 4 door can be called a 5 door if the rear seats can be collapsed to gain access from the luggage compartment to the interior of the car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.202.105.149 (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Toorak Tractors
The citation provided for the 'Toorak tractors' claim doesn't work, I don't know if it was also for the claim that people call SUVs 'soft-roaders' too. I've never heard soft-roaders used and I've only heard Toorak tractor on Top Gear Aus, I have a feeling it's only used in Sydney where Toorak is; that hardly makes it Australian and if it's only used in Sydney or NSW then it's hardly noteworthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingturkey (talk • contribs) 11:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

U.S. hatchbacks
It says that in the U.S. the liftgate door isn't usually counted as a door and thus hatchbacks are either 2-door or 4-door. However, this isn't exactly true. The Mazda3 hatchback is a 5-door, the Toyota Yaris Hatchback is 3-door or 5-door, etc. Maybe it's only when the car comes in a sedan version as well? Does anyone know? Ingridjames (talk) 02:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Didn't find hatchbacks without tail gate like some two- or 4-door Buick Regals, French Citroën CX, British Austin Princess. --Chief tin cloud (talk) 08:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

4x4
I think, 4x4 or AWD is not a body style but a technical feature that is/was available for all kinds of cars, trucks or SUVs. Purpose is not only to give better performance in difficult terrain but also to improve handling on road cars, pioneered by Jensen and Audi, and widely followed since. On the other side, there were cars that looked like offroaders but weren't, Matra-Simca Rancho for example with its FWD. And many Blazers, Broncos etc. were delivered with RWD instead of AWD. --Chief tin cloud (talk) 08:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Indeed, "A four-wheeled vehicle with a drivetrain that allows all four wheels to receive power from the engine simultaneously" - what has that to do with body style? It's true that 4x4s are typically of a certain body style, but it's this body style that needs to be described in the article under whatever the proper name for it is. — Smjg (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Giardinetta
This designation was not only used for the Autobianchi but for station wagons in general. For example, it was used for many Fiats (Topolino, 1400, 1900 etc.). --Chief tin cloud (talk) 10:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

merger proposal
Hi, are you guys aware of the car classification article? It seems to me that there is a lot of overlapping content between car body style and car classification, therefore I propose they are merged. Also, please note that changes are needed needed to get the current content in line with WP:NOT, WP:NOT, WP:ORIGINAL and WP:VERIFY. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 10:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * A week has passed without any discussion. Therefore, as per WP:merger I'm going to merge them. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Car body style


text:
North Buffalo

North Buffalo may refer to:

 * North Buffalo Township, Pennsylvania, a township in Pennsylvania
 * North Buffalo, Buffalo, a neighbourhood in Buffalo, New York

title: North Buffalo


text:
User:Ix

IX
is

 * an analytical chemist
 * a hazardous materials technician (80 hrs HAZWOPER training)
 * a State Board of Pharmacy Exemptee
 * DOT/IATA certified for transport/shipping of hazardous chemicals
 * a chromatography ninja (especially HPLC)
 * a drug technology nerd
 * (a) Libertarian
 * a native of California
 * an amateur student of Enthopharmacology/Ethnobotany
 * a married man
 * a fan of Haujobb, Beborn Beton, Wolfsheim, Elegant Machinery, TV on the Radio, Apoptygma Berzerk, and Depeche Mode, among others.

title: User:Ix


text:
Azygos vein

The azygos vein (from Ancient Greek ἄζυγος (ázugos)=unwedded, unpaired) is a vein running up the right side of the thoracic vertebral column draining itself towards the superior vena cava. It connects the systems of superior vena cava and inferior vena cava and can provide an alternative path for blood to the right atrium when either of the venae cavae is blocked.

Structure
The azygos vein transports deoxygenated blood from the posterior walls of the thorax and abdomen into the superior vena cava.

It is formed by the union of the ascending lumbar veins with the right subcostal veins at the level of the 12th thoracic vertebra, ascending to the right of the descending aorta and thoracic duct, passing behind the right crus of diaphragm, anterior to the vertebral bodies of T12 to T5 and right posterior intercostal arteries. At the level of T4 vertebrae, it arches over the root of the right lung from behind to the front to join the superior vena cava. The trachea and oesophagus is located medially to the arch of the azygous vein.

The "arch of the azygos vein" (arcus venae azygos) is an important anatomic landmark. As an anatomical variation in 1–2% of the population, the arch can be displaced laterally, thereby creating a pleural septum separating an azygos lobe from the upper lobe of the right lung.

The origin and anatomical course of the azygos vein are quite variable. Usually, there is a singular azygos vein on the right side of the body. However, the azygos vein is occasionally located in the midline or two independent veins may be present like in early embryonic development. In some rare variations, for example, it also drains thoracic veins, bronchial veins, and even gonadal veins. The vein is so named because it has no symmetrically equivalent vein on the left side of the body.

Development
It has been proposed that the azygos vein develops by originally draining to the posterior cardinal vein and then to the longitudinal venous channel. Following retrogression of the left common cardinal vein, the left azygos vein loses contact with the posterior cardinal vein. Thus, the blood drains into the right azygos line.

Tributaries
Major tributaries are the hemiazygos vein and accessory hemiazygos vein, draining into the azygous vein at the midthoracic level. These two veins are located at the opposite side of the vertebral column. The azygous vein also receives drainage from all the intercostal veins on the right, except for supreme intercostal vein (first intercostal vein). Other tributaries include the right bronchial veins and veins from pericardium, mediastinum, and oesophagus. It communicates with the vertebral venous plexuses.

Function
The azygos system of veins is considered to be the azygos vein, along with its left-sided counterparts, the hemiazygos vein and the accessory hemiazygos vein. It also creates a cavo-caval anastomosis by offering an alternative, collateral blood flow from the lower half of the body to the superior vena cava, bypassing the inferior vena cava. This can have clinical significance in any blood flow restriction of the inferior vena cava.

Clinical significance
Azygos vein abnormalities can be suggested on chest radiograph by enlargement of the azygos shadow to greater than 1 cm. False positives can occur in heart failure causing increased pressures on the right side of the heart, or adjacent lymphadenopathy. Azygos and hemiazygos continuation of the inferior vena cava (IVC) was not common in daily life. It is very hard to observe, particularly when it is not associated with congenital heart disease or deep venous thrombosis. Thus, it is crucial to diagnose the enlarged azygos vein at the confluence with the superior vena cava and in the retrocrural space to prevent misdiagnosis as a right-sided paratracheal mass. The loss of the intrahepatic segment of IVC with azygous and hemiazygos continuation happens in 0.6% of patients diagnosed for congenital heart disease and usually occurs simultaneously with situs inversus, asplenia, or polysplenia, persistent left superior vena cava (SVC), and congenital pulmonary venolobar syndrome. Azygos and hemiazygos continuation of the IVC is rare especially when it is not associated with congenital heart disease.

History
The Greek root zyg refers to a pair. 'A-' means not. Thus, azygos means unpaired. The azygos vein is unpaired in that there is only one in the body, mostly on the right side. While there is the hemiazygos vein and its accessory on the left side of the body, they are considered tributaries of the azygos vein rather than its left-side equivalent.

This terminology is only accurate in some species, such as the human, dog, and cat. Ruminants (such as sheep and cows) have paired azygos veins.

title: Azygos vein


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Toughness

In materials science and metallurgy, toughness is the ability of a material to absorb energy and plastically deform without fracturing. Toughness is the strength with which the material opposes rupture. One definition of material toughness is the amount of energy per unit volume that a material can absorb before rupturing. This measure of toughness is different from that used for fracture toughness, which describes the capacity of materials to resist fracture. Toughness requires a balance of strength and ductility.

Toughness and strength
Toughness is related to the area under the stress–strain curve. In order to be tough, a material must be both strong and ductile. For example, brittle materials (like ceramics) that are strong but with limited ductility are not tough; conversely, very ductile materials with low strengths are also not tough. To be tough, a material should withstand both high stresses and high strains. Generally speaking, strength indicates how much force the material can support, while toughness indicates how much energy a material can absorb before rupturing.

Mathematical definition
Toughness can be determined by integrating the stress-strain curve. It is the energy of mechanical deformation per unit volume prior to fracture. The explicit mathematical description is:

$$ \tfrac{\mbox{energy}}{\mbox{volume}} = \int_{0}^{\varepsilon_f} \sigma\, d\varepsilon $$

where
 * $$ \varepsilon $$ is strain
 * $$ \varepsilon_f $$ is the strain upon failure
 * $$ \sigma $$ is stress

If the upper limit of integration up to the yield point is restricted, the energy absorbed per unit volume is known as the modulus of resilience. Mathematically, the modulus of resilience can be expressed by the product of the square of the yield stress divided by two times the Young's modulus of elasticity. That is,

Modulus of resilience = $Yield stress^{2}⁄2 (Young's modulus)$

Toughness tests
The toughness of a material can be measured using a small specimen of that material. A typical testing machine uses a pendulum to deform a notched specimen of defined cross-section. The height from which the pendulum fell, minus the height to which it rose after deforming the specimen, multiplied by the weight of the pendulum, is a measure of the energy absorbed by the specimen as it was deformed during the impact with the pendulum. The Charpy and Izod notched impact strength tests are typical ASTM tests used to determine toughness.

Unit of toughness
Tensile toughness (or deformation energy, UT) is measured in units of joule per cubic metre (J·m−3), or equivalently newton-metre per cubic metre (N·m·m−3), in the SI system and inch-pound-force per cubic inch (in·lbf·in−3) in US customary units:
 * 1.00 N·m.m−3 ≃ 0.000 145 in·lbf·in−3
 * 1.00 in·lbf·in−3 ≃ 6.89 kN·m.m−3.

In the SI system, the unit of tensile toughness can be easily calculated by using area underneath the stress–strain (σ–ε) curve, which gives tensile toughness value, as given below:

 * UT = Area underneath the stress–strain (σ–ε) curve = σ × ε
 * UT [=] F/A × ΔL/L = (N·m−2)·(unitless)
 * UT [=] N·m·m−3
 * UT [=] J·m−3

Toughest material
An alloy made of almost equal amounts of chromium, cobalt and nickel (CrCoNi) is the toughest material discovered thus far. It resists fracturing even at incredibly cold temperatures close to absolute zero. It is being considered as a material used in building spacecraft.

title: Toughness


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Talk:List of anime and manga conventions

AnimeCon
http://www.tokyopop.com/news/library_newsletter_q3_05/by.php

Repeated additions to the list
Here are a list of anime conventions that have been readded multiple times:

 * Animaine (in South Portland, Maine in November)
 * Animarathon (in Bowling Green, Ohio in March) - Deleted for notability issues
 * Cosplacon (in Jefferson City, Missouri in June) - Deleted for notability issues
 * KamiKon (in Louisville, KY in April)
 * Kuroneko-Con (in Spokane, Washington in June)

There are conventions that have been added by users thus far this year (United States only), I would like to research them a bit and see if they can be made article worthy. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:53, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Here's what I've been able to find, I can provide the links on request
 * Animaine - One reliable source from Main Sunday Telegram
 * Animarathon - Three sources, two of which might need reliability discussions. One article from The Blade, two articles from Bowling Green's student newspaper The BG News, two articles from Bowling Green's student TV news organization BG24 News.
 * Cosplacon - One reliable source from KOMU
 * KamiKon - No Reliable Sources
 * Kuroneko-Con - Brief mention in an Anime News Network article related to Aki Con 2013, No other Reliable Sources

 * Animarathon is the only convention that could possibly be created depending if any reliability concerns come up with the student newspaper and TV, but another source that's not university related would be nice. Esw01407 (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if this is OK since I'm a student member of Anime In Northwest Ohio which runs Animarathon, but I can provide some sources for Animarathon that are either from Non-University Bowling Green News Outlets, Toledo news outlets, Cleveland, or outside of Ohio. Would this be enough to help establish notability? (Toledo Blade Article)  (OSM Geo Week page for related charity event)  (Article in Student Newspaper of a unrelated West Virginia Private University) (Cleveland Website, not sure if this counts)  (Non-University Bowling Green Newspaper)  (Bowling Green Based PBS Channel, different from BG 24 News which is student run.) Hope this helps! Mbrickn (talk) 23:03, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Notability Guidelines
Are there any somewhere for this sort of thing? Could be worth drawing up. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 18:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm having a hard time making heads or tails of your question. Could you please restate it more clearly? —Farix (t | c) 19:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright. For conventions to be included on this list, be an article on their own or in the associated template, what would establish enough notability? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 19:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * To be included on the list, they have to have their own article. To have their own article, they must pass Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. These guidelines have been repeatedly referred to when conventions are removed from the list. —Farix (t | c) 19:56, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Zero Serenity, if you have questions about a particular convention or conventions, feel free to ask. Also, be aware there are other lists such as List of multigenre conventions. A handful of conventions that do have a strong anime influence have been moved due to changes in programming. Esw01407 (talk) 22:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed, one of the more notable examples on this is the New York Anime festival merging with the New York Comic Con. I have been trying to find time to go though all of the convention articles we have (Starting with Canada) as there are not that many conventions listed here. if you would like to help out with this then you are free to do so as it would be a big help trying to keep up the articles notability-wise. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay. I just kinda rattled my head around how Tora-Con made this list. (Bear in mind I've been to it five times) Barring some local news coverage, I'm not entirely sure it's notability is enough. Conversely, there's a convention I used to run that fits about the same notabilities (local news coverage, existing website, press-releases to ANN) but doesn't have it's own article. I'm trying to rationalize this one out. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 17:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If you look at the article on Tora-Con, you will see that it has been covered by several reliable sources that are independent of the convention. It is still questionable whether it will withstand an WP:AfD nomination as some editors prefer coverage to be on a national level, but that is neither here nor there. However, regarding the convention that you "use to run", I would advice against creating the article yourself because of your conflict of interest. That is not to say that the convention isn't worthy of an article, but that the article shouldn't be written by someone who was involved with it. Instead, you should collect the independent sources and request another editor to create the article based on those sources. —Farix (t | c) 21:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't looking to create one based on it so much as satisfy my curiosity. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 23:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, somebody just added it to this list! Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 21:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Table format?
I'm just floating the idea about converting the list to a table layout with sorting options. This may help the list towards a future FL push in the future, the fields would include convention name, location, nation or state, month or quarter the convention occurs, and the date the convention was first established/held. I would oppose including attendance figures and last/next convention dates as that will make the page far too high-maintenance as well as issues when comparing convention by attendance because some give estimates, others give badges/tickets sold, and others give a turnstile count. —Farix (t | c) 16:17, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Table format prototype (Canada only)

 * I support this idea. It makes it somewhat easier to maintain, too. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 19:02, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * My only hang-up would be is there a way to keep the regions of the United States separate? It would be nice to keep the tables in some kind of an order to go along with the Anime conventions in the United States template. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * That would prevent any form of sorting, which is one of the reasons for switching to a table in the first place. —Farix (t | c) 20:36, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Eh okay then. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * As long as you keep them sorted in the edit window, they will appear by default in whatever order they are entered. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Tables are now deployed. Not sure if to include the defunct conventions and how. —Farix (t | c) 16:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't, the sections don't all have to be in table format. I would center in on adding prose now for the lead and sections. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Maybe have a separate section using the same format and information order as the main table? That way, any cons which become un-defunct can easily be added back to the main table. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

All one table?
What about something like this:

This is just an example (the ones marked "defunct" in this table aren't actually defunct), and would allow all of them to be in one table. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:35, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling this would be okay, but the month column might not be a good idea. Perhaps a more broad "season" would work better, as some conventions (like Otakon) do not stick to a particular month. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 00:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't like the notes section, why not have it like List of manga magazines? For the defunct anime conventions a "First held" and "Last Held" Column? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A "Status" column is fine. I was just throwing something together quickly and that's what popped to mind. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:58, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I would rather keep them separate at this point to avoid confusion. Worried about this becoming too complicated. Esw01407 (talk) 20:09, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There's not enough on this page to create confusion. I don't think having them all in one table would make things any more confusing than it is now (which is to say, not really confusing at all). It would then make all of the listings sortable all at once. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:58, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I would keep the on hiatus and defunct conventions separate then, or make all the tables one format. I am up in the air on the confusion bit, but think it would make more work on the editors who have to maintain it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:42, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I am working out a bold idea now, hold on. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Let me know what you think? I have added a table that I feel would work out here. thank you for your idea but I agree with the others on this one that it would make things too much to handle. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks fine to me. Also, I might be missing the reason why, AM² has an asterisk in front of it. Esw01407 (talk) 22:36, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That was a leftover, fixed and thanks for the feedback. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Missing Convention
Anime Fusion Bloomington, Minnesota Held in October Started in 2012

Lawbunnie007 (talk) 21:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Convention does not have enough reliable sources to establish notability. Esw01407 (talk) 18:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

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text:
1993–94 snooker world rankings

Snooker world rankings 1993/1994: The professional world rankings for the top 64 snooker players in the 1993–94 season are listed below.

title: 1993–94 snooker world rankings


text:
User:Trafton

I am a high-school student from Tacoma, WA.

es:Usuario:Trafton

title: User:Trafton


text:
Guyandotte River

The Guyandotte River is a tributary of the Ohio River, approximately 166 mi (267 km) long, in southwestern West Virginia in the United States. It was named after the French term for the Wendat Native Americans. It drains an area of the unglaciated Allegheny Plateau south of the Ohio between the watersheds of the Kanawha River to the northeast and Twelvepole Creek and the Big Sandy River to the southwest. Via the Ohio River, it is part of the Mississippi River watershed.

Course
The Guyandotte River is formed in southwestern Raleigh County by the confluence of three streams, Winding Gulf, Stonecoal Creek, and the Devils Fork. The Guyandotte flows initially west northwest into Wyoming and Mingo counties. It turns briefly northward in Mingo County and enters Logan County, where it turns north northwest for the remainder of its highly meandering course through Logan, Lincoln and Cabell counties. It enters the Ohio River from the south at Huntington, about 5 mi (8 km) east of the city's downtown.

Dams
A U.S. Army Corps of Engineers dam in Mingo County causes the river to widen as R. D. Bailey Lake in Mingo and western Wyoming counties.

Tributaries
The Mud River joins the Guyandotte at Barboursville in Cabell County. The Slab Fork joins the Guyandotte in downtown Mullens in Wyoming County. Big Ugly Creek joins the Guyandotte in Lincoln County.

Upper Guyandotte Watershed Association
In Mullens, an active watershed organization is working to reduce pollution in the headwaters of the Guyandotte River. The Upper Guyandotte Watershed Association (UGWA) is a grassroots, community-based organization working to reduce sources of pollution in order to clean up streams and make the watershed a better place to live. UGWA has garnered much public support and produced results in partnering with numerous local, state, and federal agencies.

Cities and towns along the Guyandotte River

 * Barboursville
 * Branchland, West Virginia
 * Chapmanville
 * Gilbert
 * Harts
 * Huntington
 * Logan
 * Man
 * Corinne
 * Mullens
 * Pineville
 * West Hamlin
 * West Logan

Variant names
According to the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS), the Guyandotte River has also been known as:

 * Arbuckles River
 * Big Laurel Fork
 * Guiandotte River
 * Guyan Dot River
 * Guyan Dott River
 * Guyan River
 * Guyandates Creek
 * Guyandot Creek
 * Guyandot River
 * Guyandott River
 * La-ke-we-ke-ton
 * Little Guiandot
 * Se-co-ne
 * Se-co-nee
 * Secone
 * Seconec

title: Guyandotte River


text:
User talk:Quagga/archive 1

 * This page is protected due to persistent page move vandalism.

T '''his is my talk page. Post anything you want, I don't care...'''

Wik can't fix your userpage because he is banned from editting for 1 week by the AC. Tell me what you want done and I'll fix it. As for changing your namer there is nothing wrong with that as long as you make it clear that it's a name change rather than a sockpuppet account. So who is your old name? theresa knott 15:13, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

He has crossed the line. This edit demonstrates that Quagga is here purely to make trouble. I have blocked him for 24 hours for vandalism. Tannin 15:22, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

PS: A personal note to you, Quagga. I have as much reason to be glad of Wik's banning as anyone. Hell - I am only back because the AC in its wisdom has finally demonstrated a little bit of backbone and banned him, so you needn't feel that this is a crony of Wik's who is out to get you. Tannin 15:22, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

CORRECTION: My apologies. I was mistaken. I thought that was an edit to Wik's user page. It was Quagga's own user page. I'll reverse the block. Tannin 15:27, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Maybe if Wik would abide by the rules and stop posting when he's banned, and maybe if he would quit vandalizing people's User and Talk pages, then they would leave him alone. He had no reason to be vandalizing Quagga's user and talk pages and, although Quagga could probably just leave it alone, it's perfectly understandable why he would be upset with Wik. My personal opinion is that, if Wik won't go away, his block should be re-started at 7 days until he stops posting AND, ESPECIALLY, stops vandalizing. I'll tell you one thing, if he does come back again after his 7-day block, don't expect me to be Mr. nice guy any more. I'll be on him from the second I know he's back. And if you want to block me, then go ahead, but after his attacks on MY Talk page with nobody telling him to knock it off, I've had enough. RickK 18:54, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Quagga, Rick, everyone who'se interested. The question to asks yourselves is - do you want wik gone yes or no? Because I do. So please, pretty please with a fucking cherry on top, stop posting in his talk page. Stop talking to him. Stop talking about him. Rick if you see him posting, revert and block. It's as simple as that. This is not a playground. Let's all start acting like adults please. theresa knott 01:00, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Please stop creating that page. You are wasting your time and it is not an appropriate place to contact him. Wik is not here to get annoyed and it will be redeleted every time you create it. Angela. 02:01, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

It's the only way to talk to Wik because both of his pages are blocked. I wil not stop until my pages are back to the way they were. --Quagga

 * Wik can't talk, he has been blocked. Plus he can't return you pages to the way they were anyway because of the deletions. You need an admin for that. theresa knott 04:07, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Please, Theresa. Wik has been doing a lot of talking through the anonymous IDs he's been using to vandalize Talk and User pages.  Don't be disingenuous.  RickK 04:10, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Wik can't talk my ass. Why do you think my page has been vandalized? --Quagga

 * He can't talk as Wik now can he. If he talks through an anon proxy server I block it. I've blocked loads so far and will continue to do so until he gives up.He is not permetted to talk to you, so what are you hoping to achieve by keeping on trying to talk to him? One thing he certainly can not do is return you userpage to how it was, because he's not an admin and so cant undelete deleted pages. If you are really interested in getting you user page back to normal, give me all the info you can and let me do it. I've made a start already, now what else is missing, where else was it moved to, what else do you want me to do? theresa knott 07:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I've helped a bit too - looks like it's fixed back to 22 May. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Martin 08:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Quagga, I asked if you were Cantus or not, and you flat denied it. People are going around asserting flat out that you are Cantus. Please give me a definitive yes or no answer. I know you have once before, but if you tell me again that you are not Cantus, I will believe you. RickK 02:02, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Quagga, whatever you are doing to Wik, if anything, will stop now, please. Otherwise I will ban you, and that'll be the end of that, o.k.? Just drop it, it is not worth your time or mine. There will be no further warnings, no long sessions with the arbitration committee, just that's it. Drop it. Now. If you have a problem with this, you may write to the wikien-l mailing list to complain or protest. Jimbo Wales 02:56, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Quagga/archive 1


text:
Talk:HMS Triumph

Afghanistan operations?
The triumph was involved in operation Veritas in afghanistan? How do we use a submarine to attack a landlocked country?

 * Read the article HMS Triumph (S93). Then you'll know. Gdr 00:34, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)

The First Triumph
Wikipedia seems to have missed the first ship named Triumph. Perhaps it is because she was built before 1660, which was before the designation HMS was used. How do I create an appropriate entry for this ship without a HMS designation, but which probably should be included in the list of Triumph ships? Here is the information on the first Trumph:

The first Triumph of record was a 60-gun English galleon built about 1580. With a burden of 1000 or 1100 tons, she was the largest ship built in England during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I. Triumph served effectively as the flagship of Vice-Admiral Martin Frobisher during the battle of the Spanish Armada in 1588. She was a square-rigged galleon of four masts, including two lateen-rigged mizzenmasts. [ http://kentishknock.com/greatshi.shtml]

Wiki's article on Martin Frobisher mentions that he was knighted for his services on Triumph.Tvbanfield 18:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Number of guns of Triumph 1562?
The disambig and article give conflicting and various counts for the number of guns on the Triumph 1562. Which is correct? Jason Quinn (talk) 04:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:HMS Triumph


text:
University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore

The University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore (UET Lahore) is a public university located in Lahore, Punjab, Pakistan specializing in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) subjects. It is the oldest and one of the most selective engineering institutions in Pakistan.

History and overview
Founded in 1 January 1921 in Mughalpura, a suburban area of Lahore, as Mughalpura Technical College, it later became the 'MacLagan Engineering College', a name given to it in 1923 after Sir Edward Douglas MacLagan, the then Governor of Punjab, who laid the foundation stone of the main building, now called the Main Block. In 1929, it was affiliated with the University of Punjab for the award of Bachelor's Degrees in Electrical and Mechanical Engineering. In 1939, the name was again changed to Punjab College of Engineering and Technology, and a Civil Engineering degree was also started in the college. At the time of partition, part of the college relocated to India, called East Punjab College of Engineering. In 1954, a bachelor's degree program in mining engineering was started. In 1962, it was granted charter and was named the West Pakistan University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore. During the 1960s, bachelor's degree programs were started in chemical engineering, petroleum and gas engineering, metallurgical engineering, architecture and city and regional planning. In 1972, it was officially renamed the University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore. By the 1970s, it had established a score of master's degree programs in engineering, architecture, city and regional planning and allied disciplines. Several Ph.D. degree programs were also started. A second campus of the university was established in 1975 in Sahiwal which was relocated to Taxila in 1978 and became an independent university in 1993 called the University of Engineering and Technology, Taxila.

Today, it is widely considered one of the best and most prestigious engineering universities in Pakistan where more than 50,000 students apply for admission every year.

The university, had a faculty of 881 people of which 257 had doctorates. It has a total of 9,385 undergraduate and 1,708 postgraduate students studying. It has a strong collaboration with the University of South Carolina, University of Manchester and the Queen Mary University of London and has conducted research funded by Huawei, Cavium Networks, Microsoft and MontaVista. It is one of the highest ranked universities in Pakistan with domestic rankings placing it as the third best engineering school in Pakistan while QS World University Ranking put it as 236th in world in the category of Engineering & Technology in the year 2024. It is also ranked 101-150 in the category of Petroleum Engineering, 201-250 in Electrical & Electronics Engineering, 251-300 in Mechanical Engineering, 351-400 in Chemical Engineering and 401-450 in Computer Science & Information Systems in the world by the same publication in 2024. Meanwhile, in Asia the university ranking is currently ranked at No. 165th. Computer Science is the highest-merit and most sought after discipline at UET Lahore (at Undergraduate Level). The government of Punjab commemorated the 100th anniversary of UET by issuing a Commemorative coin and a Postage stamp in January 2022.

Location
The campus is situated on the Grand Trunk Road (GT Road), a few kilometers from the Mughal era Shalimar Gardens.

Research centers
The university consists of the following research centers:

 * Al-Khawarizmi Institute of Computer Science (KICS)
 * Huawei – UET Joint TeleComm and IT Center
 * Center for Language Engineering
 * ZTE – UET Joint TeleComm Center
 * Laser and Optronics Center
 * Energy Research Technologies Development Center
 * Institute of Environmental Engineering and Research
 * DSP and Wireless Communication Center
 * Center of Excellence in Water Resources Engineering
 * Research Center
 * Software Engineering Center
 * Manufacturing Technologies Development Center
 * Automotive Engineering Center
 * Nano Technology Research Center
 * Innovation and Technology Development Center
 * Engineering Services UET Pakistan (Pvt) Limited (ESUPAK)
 * Center for Energy Research and Development
 * BioMedical Engineering Center

More than 870 students are foreign students and more than 1000 are female students.

Teaching faculty
The faculty consists of 741 people including 14 international faculty members; around 122 have doctoral degrees. Its faculty holds one Tamgha-e-Imtiaz, one Sitara-i-Imtiaz, one Izaz-e-Kamal Presidential Award and nine HEC Best Teacher Awards.

The university has established a Directorate of Research, Extension and Advisory Services which strives for the promotion and organization of research activities. The Al-Khwarizmi Institute of Computer Sciences is a notable name in Pakistan's research activity in computer sciences.

Co-curricular, extracurricular activities and student societies
The university has a sports complex, consisting of a swimming pool, tennis court, table tennis court, squash court and a cricket stadium used for athletics. The university has several football grounds. Apart from sports-related facilities, there are societies to promote co-curricular activities and seminars.

The National Library of Engineering Science
The National Library of Engineering Science, inaugurated by Faisal bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, is the central library of the university with a seating capacity for 400 readers and more than 125,000 volumes of books, 22,000 volumes of bound serials and 600 issues of scientific and technical serials on diverse fields. The Library has the honor of having recently been chosen by the Higher Education Commission to serve as the primary resource center for engineering and technical education. It is a three-story building in front of Allah Hu Chowk.

Notable alumni

 * Fawad Rana, Owner of Lahore Qalandars
 * Parvez Butt, Former Chairman of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC)
 * Junaid Jamshed, Religious Scholar
 * Jawad Ahmad, Pop Singer
 * Junaid Khan, Rock Singer and Actor
 * Najam Sheraz, Pop Singer
 * Faakhir Mehmood, Pop Singer
 * Sami Khan, Actor
 * Ahsan Iqbal, Politician, Member of Pakistan Muslim League (N)
 * Mir Nooruddin Mengal, slain Leader and Former Acting President of Balochistan National Party (Mengal)
 * Fazal Ahmad Khalid, Former Vice Chancellor of the university
 * Mehreen Faruqi, Australian Politician
 * Peer Zulfiqar Ahmad Naqshbandi, Islamic Scholar
 * Mosharraf Hossain, Bangladeshi Politician
 * Arun Kumar Ahuja, late Hindi film actor
 * Adil Najam, dean Pardee School of Global Studies at Boston University, former vice chancellor of Lahore University of Management Sciences and former associate professor at the International Institute for Sustainable Development, former associate professor at Tufts University, USA
 * Ahsan Kareem, Robert M. Moran Professor of Engineering and Director of NatHaz Modeling Laboratory at the University of Notre Dame, USA
 * Ishfaq Ahmad, fellow of IEEE, professor at The University of Texas at Arlington, USA
 * Amir Asif, Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, and Vice President Research and Innovation, at York University, Toronto, Canada.


text:
1992–93 snooker world rankings

Snooker world rankings 1992/1993: The professional world rankings for the top 32 snooker players and two others from the top 64 in the 1992–93 season are listed below.

title: 1992–93 snooker world rankings