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Balinese Hinduism

Balinese Hinduism (Hinduisme Bali; Balinese: Hindusmé Bali, ᬳᬶᬦ᭄ᬤᬸᬯᬶᬲ᭄ᬫᬾᬩᬮᬶ) also known in Indonesia as Agama Hindu Dharma; Agama Tirtha; Agama Air Suci; Agama Hindu Bali is the form of Hinduism practised by the majority of the population of Bali. This is particularly associated with the Balinese people residing on the island, and represents a distinct form of Hindu worship incorporating local animism, ancestor worship or Pitru Paksha, and reverence for Buddhist saints or Bodhisattava.

The population of Indonesian islands is predominantly Muslim (87%). The island of Bali is an exception where about 87% of its people identify as Hindu (about 1.7% of the total Indonesian population).

The 1945 Constitution of Indonesia guarantees freedom of religion to all citizens. In 1952, states Michel Picard, an anthropologist and scholar of Balinese history and religion, the Indonesian Ministry of Religious Affairs came under the control of conservatives who severely constrained an acceptable definition of a "religion". To be acceptable as an official Indonesian religion, the past ministry defined "religion" as one that is monotheistic, has codified religious law and added several requirements.

Further, Indonesia denied rights of citizenship (such as the right to vote) to anyone not belonging to an officially recognized religion. As such, Balinese Hinduism has been formally recognized by the Indonesian government as one of the official religions practised in Bali.

History
Hindu influences reached the Indonesian Archipelago as early as the first century CE. Historical evidence is unclear about the diffusion process of cultural and spiritual ideas from India. Java legends refer to Saka-era, traced to 78 CE. Stories from the Mahabharata have been traced in Indonesian islands to the 1st century, whose versions mirror those found in Tamil Nadu.

Similarly, ancient Chandis (temples) excavated in Java and western Indonesian islands, as well as ancient inscriptions such as the 8th century Canggal inscription discovered in Indonesia, confirm the widespread adoption of Shiva lingam iconography, his companion goddess Parvati, Ganesha, Vishnu, Brahma, Arjuna, and other Hindu deities by about the middle to late 1st-millennium CE. Ancient Chinese records of Fa Hien on his return voyage from Ceylon to China in 414 CE mention two schools of Hinduism in Java, while Chinese documents from the 8th century refer to the Hindu kingdom of King Sanjaya as Holing, calling it "exceedingly wealthy," and say that it coexisted peacefully with the Buddhist people and Sailendra ruler in the Kedu Plain of the Java island.

About 1400 CE, the kingdoms on the Indonesian islands were attacked by coast-based Muslim armies. During the 15th and 16th centuries, this Muslim campaign led by Sultans targeted Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms and various communities in the Indonesian archipelago, with each Sultan trying to carve out a region or island for control.

Four diverse and contentious Islamic Sultanates emerged in north Sumatra (Aceh), south Sumatra, west and central Java, and southern Borneo (Kalimantan). The violence ended the Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms and communities in many of the islands of Indonesia.

In other cases, Hindus and Buddhists left and concentrated as communities on islands that they could defend. Hindus of western Java moved east and then to the island of Bali and the neighbouring small islands, thus starting Balinese Hinduism. While this era of religious conflict and inter-Sultanate warfare was unfolding, and new power centres were attempting to consolidate regions under their control, European colonialism arrived. The Indonesian archipelago was soon dominated by the Dutch colonial empire.

The Dutch colonial empire helped prevent inter-religious conflict, and it slowly began the process of excavating, understanding and preserving Indonesia's ancient Hindu-Buddhist cultural foundations, particularly in Java and the western islands of Indonesia.

Upon independence from Dutch colonial rule, Article 29 of the 1945 Constitution of Indonesia guaranteed freedom of religion to all its citizens. In 1952, states Michel Picard, the Indonesian Ministry of Religion came under the control of Islamists who severely constrained the acceptable definition of a "religion". To be acceptable as an official Indonesian religion, the ministry defined "religion" as one that is monotheistic, has codified religious law, possesses a prophet and a Holy Book, amongst other requirements. Balinese Hindus were declared as "people without a religion", and available to be converted. Balinese Hindus disagreed, debated, adapted, and declared their form of Hinduism to be monotheistic, and presented it in a form to be eligible for the status of "agama" under the 1952 amended articles.

To accomplish this, the Balinese Hindus initiated a series of student and cultural exchange initiatives between Bali and India to help formulate the core principles behind Balinese Hinduism (Catur Veda, Upanishad, Puranas, Itihasa). In particular, the political self-determination movement in Bali in the mid-1950s led to the joint petition of 1958 which demanded the Indonesian government recognize Hindu Dharma. This joint petition quoted the following Sanskrit mantra from the Hindu scriptures:

"Om tat sat ekam eva advitiyam Translation: Om, thus is the essence of the all-pervading, infinite, undivided one."

- Joint petition by Hindus of Bali

The petition's focus on the "undivided one" was to satisfy the constitutional requirement that Indonesian citizens have a monotheistic belief in one God. The petitioners identified Ida Sanghyang Widhi Wasa as the undivided one. In the Balinese language, this term has two meanings: "the Divine ruler of the Universe" and "the Divine Absolute Cosmic Law". This creative phrase met the monotheistic requirement of the Indonesian Ministry of Religion in the former sense, while the latter sense of its meaning preserved the central ideas of dharma in ancient scripts of Hinduism.

Bali became the only part of Indonesia to remain predominantly Hindu.

Key beliefs
Balinese Hinduism is an amalgamation of Hinduism with elements from Buddhism and pre-existing indigenous animist customs that permeated in the Indonesian archipelago before the arrival of Hinduism.

It integrates many of the core beliefs of Hinduism with the arts and rituals of the Balinese people. In contemporary times, Hinduism in Bali is officially referred to by the Indonesian Ministry of Religion as Agama Hindu Dharma, but traditionally the religion was called by many names such as Tirta, Trimurti, Hindu, Agama Tirta, Siwa, Buda, and Siwa-Buda.

The terms Tirta and Trimurti emanate from Indian Hinduism, corresponding to Tirtha (pilgrimage to spirituality near holy waters) and Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva) respectively. As in India, Hinduism in Bali grew with flexibility, featuring a diverse way of life. It includes many Indian spiritual ideas, cherishes the legends and beliefs of the Indian Puranas and Hindu Epics, and expresses its traditions through a unique set of festivals and customs associated with a myriad of hyangs - the local and ancestral spirits, as well as forms of animal sacrifice that are not common in India.

The general beliefs and practices of Agama Hindu Dharma as practised in Bali are a mixture of ancient traditions and contemporary pressures placed by Indonesian laws that permit only monotheist belief under the national ideology of panca sila.

Traditionally, Hinduism in Indonesia had a pantheon of deities and that tradition of belief continues in practice; further, Hinduism in Indonesia granted freedom and flexibility to Hindus as to when, how and where to pray. However, officially, the Indonesian government considers and advertises Indonesian Hinduism as a monotheistic religion with certain officially recognized beliefs that comply with its national ideology.

Indonesian school textbooks describe Hinduism as having one supreme being, Hindus offering three daily mandatory prayers, and Hinduism as having certain common beliefs that in part parallel those of Islam. Scholar's contest whether these Indonesian government recognized and assigned beliefs to reflect the traditional Balinese Hindu beliefs and practices before Indonesia gained independence from Dutch colonial rule.

Some of the Hindu beliefs officially recognized by the Indonesian Ministry of Religion include:
 * A belief in one supreme being called "Ida Sanghyang Widi Wasa", "Sang Hyang Tunggal", or "Sang Hyang Acintya".
 * A belief that all of the gods are manifestations of this supreme being. This belief is the same as the belief of Smartism, which also holds that the different forms of gods and goddesses, Vishnu, Siva, Shakti (Devi) are different aspects of the same Supreme Being. Shiva is also worshipped in other forms such as "Batara Guru" and "Maharaja Dewa" (Mahadeva).

The sacred texts found in Agama Hindu Dharma are the Vedas and Upanishads. They are the bases of Indian and Balinese Hinduism. Other sources of religious information include the Universal Hindu Puranas and the Itihasa (mainly Ramayana and the Mahabharata). The epics Mahabharata and Ramayana became enduring traditions among Indonesian believers, expressed in shadow puppets (wayang) and dance performances. As in India, Indonesian Hinduism recognizes four paths of spirituality, calling it Catur Marga. These are bhakti mārga (path of devotion to deities), jnana mārga (path of knowledge), karma mārga (path of works) and raja mārga (path of meditation). Bhakti Marga has the largest following in Bali.

Similarly, like Hindus in India, Balinese Hindus believe that there are four proper goals of human life, calling it Catur Purusartha - dharma (the pursuit of moral and ethical living), artha (the pursuit of wealth and creative activity), kama (the pursuit of joy and love) and moksha (the pursuit of self-knowledge and liberation).

God and deities
Balinese Hinduism includes the Indian trinity concept called Trimurti consisting of:
 * Brahma
 * Wisnu or Vishnu
 * Çiwa or Siwa or Shiva

In Balinese Hindu texts, the alternate tripartite concept of Shiva of Indian Shaivism is also found. This is usually referred in Balinese as "Siwa-Sadasiwa-Paramasiwa", where Shiva is the creator, the maintainer and the destroyer of cyclic existence.

Along with the traditional Hindu trinity, Balinese Hindus worship a range of gods and goddesses (Hyang, Dewata and Batara-Batari), as well others that are unique and not found in Indian Hinduism. Sang Hyang Widhi literally means "Divine Order", also known as Acintya ("Inconceivable") or Sang Hyang Tunggal ("Divine Oneness"), is the concept in Balinese tradition of Hinduism that parallels the metaphysical concept of Brahman among Indian Hindus. Ceremonies include an empty high-seated chair. It is also found at the top of the Padmasana shrine outside houses and temples. This is for Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa.

Ethical values
The axiological ideas of Balinese Hinduism parallel those in Indian Hinduism. However, states Martin Ramstedt – a scholar of Hinduism in Southeast Asia, they are termed somewhat differently and passed on from one generation to the next as a community and at spiritual ceremonies. Unlike the Islamic schools in Indonesia and Hindu Ashrams in India, and in light of the official representation of Balinese Hinduism, the traditional precepts and values are acquired at home, rituals, and religious symbols.

For example, the symbolism connected with the sprinkling of "tirtha", or holy water that bridges the material and the spiritual, this water is first sprinkled overhead and is understood as "purification of manah (mind)", then sipped to be understood as "purification of wak (speech)", and then sprinkled over the body symbolizing "purification of kaya (attitude and behaviour)". Thus, states Ngurah Nala, the younger generation becomes "acquainted with the ethical values embodied in the concept of Tri Kaya Parisudha, or the attainment of a pure or good mind (manacika), pure or good speech (wacika), and pure conduct (kayika)".

Birth and life
There are a total of thirteen ceremonies concerned with life from conception until, but not including, death, each of which has four elements: placation of evil spirits, purification with holy water, wafting of the essence, and prayer. These ceremonies mark major events in a person's life, including birth, puberty, grain feeding, and marriage.

A newborn baby is believed to represent the soul of an ancestor and is regarded as a god for the first 42 days of its life. However, the mother is regarded as impure and is not allowed to participate in any religious activities during this period. A baby must not touch the impure ground until it is 105 days old, halfway to the celebration of its first birthday according to the 210-day Balinese Pawukon calendar. Once it reaches its first birthday, the child's family will celebrate the Otonan birthday ceremony. Once the child reaches puberty, the six upper canine teeth are filed until they are even.

Death and reincarnation
The most important ceremonies take place after death and result in the soul being freed to be eventually reincarnated. Unlike the death rites of other religions, the physical body is not the focus, as it is seen as nothing more than a temporary container of the soul and fit only for expedient disposal. In fact, the body must be burned before the soul can leave it completely. The cremation ceremony to bring this about can be extremely expensive because an elaborate ceremony is a way of showing respect for a soul destined to become a god with considerable powers over those left behind. Therefore, bodies are sometimes temporarily buried until the family can accumulate enough funds for cremation, although the bodies of priests or high-class families are preserved above ground.

Galungan and Kuningan
The most important festival is Galungan (related to Deepavali), a celebration of the triumph of dharma over adharma. It is calculated according to the 210-day Balinese Pawukon calendar and takes place on the Wednesday (Buda) of the eleventh week (Dunggulan). According to tradition, the spirits of the dead descend from Heaven, to return ten days later on Kuningan.

Nyepi
Nyepi, or the Day of Silence, makes the start of the Balinese Saka year and is marked on the first day of the 10th month, Kedasa. It usually falls in March.

Other festivals
Watugunung, the last day of the Pawukon calendar, is devoted to Saraswati, goddess of learning. Although it is devoted to books, reading is not allowed. The fourth day of the year is called Pagerwesi, meaning "iron fence". It commemorates a battle between good and evil.

Varna system
Balinese caste structure has been described in early 20th-century European literature to be based on three categories – triwangsa (three classes) or the nobility, dwijati (twice-born) in contrast to ekajati (once born) the common folks. Four statuses were identified in these sociological studies, spelled a bit differently from the caste categories for India:

 * Brahmanas – priest
 * Satrias – knighthood
 * Wesias – commerce
 * Sudras – servitude

The Brahmana caste was further subdivided by these Dutch ethnographers into two: Siwa and Buda. The Siwa caste was subdivided into five – Kemenuh, Keniten, Mas, Manuba, and Petapan. This classification was to accommodate the observed marriage between higher caste Brahmana men with lower caste women. The other castes were similarly further sub-classified by these 19th-century and early-20th-century ethnographers based on numerous criteria ranging from profession, endogamy or exogamy or polygamy, and a host of other factors in a manner similar to caste system studies in British colonies such as India.

Processions and colors
Bali has a caste system similar to the Indian system in its ancient form. In ancient India, caste was called varna, meaning the colouring of the neutral or transparent soul or the propensity of the soul to behave according to certain tendencies based on its innate nature. Based on this propensity people selected their profession. Later this process through erosion became a family lineage/birth-based system. This same system has been adopted in Bali and it is called Wangsa which is related to the professions of the ancestors. However, even in Bali today, irrespective of the profession of the individual, they claim to belong to their family wangsa. There are four basic wangsa or professions, known collectively as caturwangsa—all Balinese belong to this group. The top three wangsa are Brahmana, Satria (or Ksatriya) and Wesia (or Wesya), represent nobility, and are known as triwangsa. The fourth and most common wangsa is Sudra.

These wangsa groups are subdivided, and each has certain names associated with it. The teachers and priests, Brahmanans, have five subdivisions, and are said to be descended from one individual. Men and women have Ida as their first name. The Ksatriya are traditional rulers and warriors. Typical names of this wangsa are "Dewa Agung", "Anak Agung" and "I Dewa". The Wesia are considered to have been merchants of different kinds. The most common wangsa in Bali in terms of numbers is Sudra since 90% of Balinese Hindus belong to it; they make up the common people as farmers and others. The Pandes or Blacksmiths have a special 'clan' that is not mentioned in the Catur Wangsa group but is considered especially important for its skilled works and being the smiths of fire, Dewa Agni or Dewa Brahma.

Dietary law
Under no circumstances may Balinese Hindus consume the flesh of human, cat, monkey, dog, crocodile, mouse, snake, frog, certain poisonous fish, leech, stinging insect, crow, eagle, owl, or any other bird of prey.

Chicken, fruit, vegetables and seafood are widely consumed. Hindus, especially those who belong to the varna (caste) of Brahmin and Kshatriya, are forbidden to consume or even touch beef and rarely touch pork; additionally, they must not eat on the street or marketplace, drink alcohol, or taste offerings of such items.

Outside Bali and Indonesia
Balinese Hindus built Pura Parahyangan Agung Jagatkarta, the second largest temple in Indonesia after Pura Besakih in Bali, dedicated to Hindu Sundanese King Sri Baduga Maharaja Sang Ratu Jaya Dewata Prabu Siliwangi. Pura Aditya Jaya is the largest temple in Indonesian capital Jakarta.

At least four Balinese Hindu temples exist in Europe. A padmasana exists in Hamburg, Germany in front of the Museum of Ethnology, Hamburg. Pura Girinatha in Dili, Timor Leste, was built by Indonesian immigrants. The recently constructed Pura Tri Hita Karana is located in Erholungspark Marzahn park in Berlin, Germany. Two temples exist in the Pairi Daiza botanical garden in Belgium.

title: Balinese Hinduism


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Toilet training

Toilet training (also potty training or toilet learning) is the process of training someone, particularly a toddler or infant, to use the toilet for urination and defecation. Attitudes toward training in recent history have fluctuated substantially, and may vary across cultures and according to demographics. Many of the contemporary approaches to toilet training favor a behaviouralism- and cognitive psychology-based approach.

Specific recommendations on techniques vary considerably, although a range of these are generally considered effective, and specific research on their comparative effectiveness is lacking. No single approach may be universally effective, either across learners or for the same learner across time, and trainers may need to adjust their techniques according to what is most effective in their situation. Training may begin shortly after birth in some cultures. However, in much of the developed world this occurs between the age of 18 months and two years, with the majority of children fully trained by age four, although many children may still experience occasional accidents.

Certain behavioral or medical disorders may affect toilet training, and extend the time and effort necessary for successful completion. In certain circumstances, these will require professional intervention by a medical professional. However, this is rare and even for those children who face difficulties in training, the vast majority of children can be successfully trained.

Children may face certain risks associated with training, such as slips or falling toilet seats, and toilet training may act in some circumstances as a trigger for abuse. Certain technologies have been developed for use in toilet training, some specialized and others commonly used.

History
Little is known about toilet training in pre-modern societies. Ancient Rome has been credited with the earliest known children's toilet. However, there is no evidence of what training techniques they may have employed. Later, during the European Middle Ages, according to one source "Recommended cures for 'pyssying the bedde'...included consumption of ground hedgehog or powdered goat claw and having dried rooster combs sprinkled on the bed."

Cultural beliefs and practices related to toilet training in recent times have varied. For example, beginning in the late 18th century parenting transitioned from the use of leaves or linens (or nothing) for the covering of a child's genitals, to the use of cloth diapers (or nappies), which needed to be washed by hand. This was followed by the advent of mechanical washing machines, and then to the popularisation of disposable diapers in the mid 20th century, each of which decreased the burden on parental time and resources needed to care for children who were not toilet trained, and changed expectations about the timeliness of training. This trend did not manifest equally in all parts of the world. Those living in poorer countries usually train as early as possible, as access to amenities such as disposable diapers may still pose a significant burden. Poorer families in developed countries also tend to train earlier than their more affluent peers.

Much of the 20th-century conceptualization of toilet training was dominated by psychoanalysis, with its emphasis on the unconscious, and warnings about potential psychological impacts in later life of toilet training experiences. For example, anthropologist Geoffrey Gorer attributed much of contemporary Japanese society in the 1940s to their method of toilet training, writing that "early and severe toilet training is the most important single influence in the formation of the adult Japanese character." Some German child-rearing theorists of the 1970s tied Nazism and the Holocaust to authoritarian, sadistic personalities produced by punitive toilet training.

Into the 20th century this was largely abandoned in favor of behaviouralism, with an emphasis on the ways in which rewards and reinforcements increase the frequency of certain behaviors, and cognitive psychology, with an emphasis on meaning, cognitive ability, and personal values. Writers such as psychologist and pediatrician Arnold Gesell, along with pediatrician Benjamin Spock were influential in re-framing the issue of toilet training as one of biology and child readiness.

Approaches
Approaches to toilet training have fluctuated between "passive child readiness" ("nature"-based approaches), which emphasize individual child readiness, and more "structured behaviorally based" ("nurture"-based approaches), which emphasize the need for parents to initiate a training regime as soon as possible. Among the more popular methods are the Brazelton child-oriented approach, the approach outlined in The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care by Benjamin Spock, the methods recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the "toilet training in a day" approach developed by Nathan Azrin and Richard M. Foxx. According to the American Academy of Family Physicians, both the Brazelton and the Azrin/Foxx approaches are effective for developmentally normal children, although the evidence has been limited, and no study has directly compared the effectiveness of the two. Recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics follow closely with Brazelton, and at least one study has suggested that the Azrin/Foxx method was more effective than that proposed by Spock.

Opinions may vary greatly among parents regarding what the most effective approach to toilet training is, and success may require multiple or varied techniques according to what a child is most responsive to. These may include the use of educational material, like children's books, regularly querying a child about their need to use the bathroom, demonstration by a parent, or some type of reward system. Some children may respond more positively to more brief but intense toilet training, while others may be more successful adjusting more slowly over a longer period of time. Regardless of the techniques used, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that the strategy utilize as much parental involvement and encouragement as possible, while avoiding negative judgement.

The Canadian Paediatric Society makes a number of specific recommendations for toilet training techniques. These include:
 * Using a toilet seat adapter, foot stool, or potty chair to ensure easy access for the child
 * Encouraging and praising the child when they inform caregivers of their need to evacuate, even when done after the fact
 * Being attentive to a child's behavioural cues that may indicate their need to evacuate
 * Prefer encouragement and praise and avoid punishment or negative reinforcement
 * Ensure all caregivers are consistent with their approach
 * Consider transition to cotton underwear or training pants once the child achieves repeated success

Timeline
As psychologist Johnny L. Matson observes, using the toilet can be a complex process to master, from the ability to recognize and control bodily functions, to the skills required to carry out proper hygiene practices, the requisite dexterity to dress and undress oneself, and the communication skills to inform others of the need to use the toilet. Usually around one year of age, a child will begin to recognize the need to evacuate, which might be observed through changes in behavior immediately prior to urination or defecation. Although they may recognize the need, children younger than 18 months may not yet be able to consciously control the muscles involved in elimination, and cannot yet begin toilet training. While they may use the toilet if placed there by a parent at an opportune time, this likely remains an involuntary, rather than a conscious process. This will gradually change over the course of many months or years, with nighttime bowel control usually the first to manifest, followed by daytime control, and nighttime bladder control normally last.

Toilet training practice may vary greatly across cultures. For example, researchers such as Mary Ainsworth have documented families in Chinese, Indian, and African cultures beginning toilet training as early as a few weeks or months of age. In Vietnam, toilet training begins shortly after birth, with toilet training complete by age 2. This may be mediated by a number of actors, including cultural values regarding excrement, the role of caregivers, and the expectation that mothers work, and how soon they are expected to return to work following childbirth.

In 1932, the U.S. Government recommended that parents begin toilet training nearly immediately after birth, with the expectation that it would be complete by the time the child was six to eight months of age. However, this shifted over time, with parents in the early 20th century beginning training at 12–18 months of age, and shifting by the latter half of the century, to an average of greater than 18 months. In the US and Europe, training normally starts between 21 and 36 months, with only 40 to 60% of children trained by 36 months.

Both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society recommend that parents begin toilet training around 18 months of age so long as the child is interested in doing so. There is some evidence to suggest that children who are trained after their second year, may be at a higher risk for certain disorders, such as urological problem or daytime wetting. There is no evidence of any psychological problems resulting from initiating training too early. In a study of families in the United Kingdom, researchers found that 2.1% began training prior to six months, 13.8% between 6 and 15 months, 50.4% between 15 and 24 months, and 33.7% had not begun training at 24 months.

The majority of children will achieve complete bladder and bowel control between ages two and four. While four-year-olds are usually reliably dry during their waking hours, as many as one in five children aged five will occasionally wet themselves during the night. Girls tend to complete successful training at a somewhat younger age than their male peers, and the typical time period between the beginning and completion of training tends to vary between three and six months.

Accidents
Accidents, periodic episodes of urinary or fecal incontinence, are generally a normal part of toilet training and are usually not a sign of serious medical issues. Accidents that occur with additional problems, such as pain when urinating or defecating, chronic constipation, or blood in urine or feces, should be evaluated by a pediatrician. The prevalence of nocturnal enuresis, also known as bed wetting, may be as high as 9.7% of seven-year-olds, and 5.5% of ten-year-olds, eventually decreasing to a rate of about 0.5% in adults.

Complications
Toilet training can be increasingly difficult for parents of children who have certain developmental, behavioral or medical disorders. Children with autism, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder may not be motivated to complete toilet training, may have difficulty appropriately responding to associated social reinforcements, or may have sensory sensitivities which make using the toilet unpleasant.

Children may have a range of physical issues related to the genitourinary system, that could require medical assessment and surgical or pharmacological intervention to ensure successful toilet training. Those with cerebral palsy may face a unique set of challenges related to bladder and bowel control, and those with visual or auditory problems may require adaptations in the parental approach to training to compensate, in addition to therapy or adaptive equipment.

Stool toileting refusal occurs when a child that has been toilet trained to urinate, refuses to use the toilet to defecate for a period lasting at least one month. This may affect as many as 22% of children and can result in constipation or pain during elimination. It usually resolves without the need for intervention. Children may exhibit stool withholding, or attempts to avoid defecation all together. This can also result in constipation. Some children will hide their stool, which may be done out of embarrassment or fear, and is more likely to be associated with both toileting refusal and withholding.

Although some complications may increase the time needed to achieve successful bladder and bowel control, most children can be toilet trained nonetheless. Physiological causes of failure in toilet training are rare, as is the need for medical intervention. In most cases, children who struggle with training are most likely not yet ready.

In a 2014 survey of UK schools, primary school teachers and educational staff reported observing an increasing number of otherwise healthy schoolchildren who were not toilet trained. 15% of respondents reported that they had observed healthy children aged 5-7 wearing diapers to school in the past year. 5% reported the same for children aged 7-11. A health worker with the Kent Community Health NHS Foundation Trust said that she knew of medically healthy adolescents as old as 15 with toilet training issues. Commentators attributed the issue to parents being too busy to teach their children basic skills.

Risks
An examination of data from hospital emergency rooms in the US from 2002 to 2010 indicated that the most common form of toilet training related injury was caused by falling toilet seats, and occurred most often in children aged two to three. The second most common injury was from slipping on floors, and 99% of injuries of all types occurred in the home.

In abusive homes, toilet training may be a trigger for child maltreatment, especially in circumstances where a parent or caregiver feels the child is old enough that they should have already successfully mastered training, and yet the child continues to have accidents. This may be misinterpreted by the caregiver as willful disobedience on the part of the child.

Technologies and equipment
As early as 1938, among the first technologies developed to address toilet training was known as the "bell and pad", where a sensor detected when a child had wet themselves at night, and triggered an alarm to act as a form of conditioning. Similar alarm systems have been studied that sense wetness in undergarments, especially as it concerns the toilet training of those with intellectual disabilities. This has been applied more recently in the production of potties, that play an audible cheer or other form of encouragement when used by a child.

Trainers may choose to employ different choices of undergarments to facilitate training. This includes switching from traditional diapers or nappies to training pants (pull-ups), or the use of non-absorbent cotton underwear of the type adults may wear. These are typically employed later in the training process, and not as initial step. Children who experience repeated accidents after transitioning to cotton undergarments may be allowed to resume the use of diapers.

Most widely used techniques recommend the use of specialized children's potties, and some recommend that parents consider using snacks or drinks as rewards.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Toilet training


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Desjardins Group

The Desjardins Group (Mouvement Desjardins) is a Canadian financial service cooperative and the largest federation of credit unions (caisses populaires) in North America. It was founded in 1900 in Lévis, Quebec by Alphonse Desjardins. While its legal headquarters remains in Lévis, most of the executive management, including the CEO, is based in Montreal.

As of 2017, Desjardins Group consists of 293 local credit unions operating 1,032 points of service and serving more than seven million members and clients, mostly in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario.

In addition to retail banking, the Group has over twenty subsidiaries offering products and services related to insurance (Desjardins Financial Security, Desjardins General Insurance), real estate (with its Complexe Desjardins offices in Montreal and Quebec online estate agent ), venture capital funds (Desjardins Venture Capital), and brokerage (Desjardins Securities). The Desjardins Group, through subsidiary Développement international Desjardins, is also active in over 30 developing countries through technical assistance programs and various investments. In October 2020, Desjardins launched a social impact fund, Aequitas, which could grow to 115 millions dollars and help women and youth in developing countries.

History
After studying European credit institutions established in the 19th century, Alphonse Desjardins in 1901 came up with an original solution adapted to North America.

In the late 1990s, the number of caisses was reduced from 1275 to 800.

Between 2008 and 2010, total assets at Desjardins Group grew over 15% from Can$151.9 billion (when it ranked sixth in Canada and first in Quebec among financial institutions ahead of the National Bank of Canada) to over $175 billion in 2010. In 2006, it had 6,500 elected and volunteer officers and employed over 40,000 people and gave its members $483 million in patronage allocations and $64 million in donations, sponsorships and academic scholarships. Most of the latter sum was used on regional economic development and health programs as well. In that same year, in March 2008, the election of Monique Leroux at the head of the group marked the history of Canada by becoming "Canada's largest company headed by a woman".

In December 2010, it acquired the 121 offices and 500,000 customers of Western Financial for $443 million, giving it a presence in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba.

In 2003, Desjardins bought the former Province of Ontario Savings Office, which it branded Desjardins Credit Union and operated until 2011. This institution was then merged into Meridian Credit Union. (The similarly-named Desjardins Ontario Credit Union, formed 1 January 2020 with the merger of 11 Ontario Desjardins-affiliated credit unions and their federation into one, is not the same entity and continues as a going concern.)

In 2014, Desjardins Group acquired the Canadian operations of U.S.-based insurance giant State Farm. The policies were transferred to be underwritten by Desjardins Insurance on January 1, 2015. The State Farm brand continued to be used for agents and marketing until 2018.

On January 3, 2017, Desjardins Group announced the closing of the sale of its pet health insurance company, Western Financial Insurance Company to Economical Mutual Insurance Company. Western Financial Insurance Company and its flagship brand, Petsecure were purchased in 2011 as part of the Western Financial Group deal.

On July 5, 2017, Trimont Financial, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Company, announced the completion of its purchase of the remainder of Western Financial Group from Desjardins Group for $775 million. Included in the sale were Western Financial Group's Brokerage Network, Western Financial Group Insurance Solutions, and Western Life Assurance.

In 2018, State Farm Canada was officially rebranded to Desjardins Insurance through Desjardins Insurance Agents. The whole transition was to be completed by the end of 2019.

2019 data breach
On June 20, 2019, Desjardins Group reported a data breach involving personal data of 4.3 million individual users and 173,000 businesses, more than 40% of Quebec-based credit union's clients and members. The security breach, detected in December 2018, was not linked to a direct cyberattack, but the result of a disgruntled corporate employee. The data leaked was assembled over a certain period of time after unauthorized access to banking systems and copied customer data. Police investigation is still ongoing.

Credit agency ratings
As of December 2018, Desjardins long-term debt is rated Aa2 by Moody's, A+ by S&P, AA by DBRS, and AA− by Fitch. S&P and Fitch considered the company's outlook "stable," while Moody's and DBRS rated it "negative."

title: Desjardins Group


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User:Reubenator

yep...

title: User:Reubenator


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User:TiMike

TiMike c. 1975 is a Wikipedian and a WikiGnome from New Jersey, United States.

I am interested in a wide spectrum of topics such as hemodynamics, web development, plate tectonics, libertarianism, baseball, plant-based diets, the colonial history of the United States, maps/geo-coordinates, grunge, the golden age hip hop, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I am a fan of all Philadelphia sports teams, and trash talk using a moderate Philadelphia accent — Woot!

People I find interesting
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What I Do Here
I believe Wikipedia is one of mankind's greatest inventions. I like to incrementally improve it for everyone. I tend to mill around the backlog looking for things that interest me. These are the areas I focus on the most:

 * I add categories
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 * Unreferenced BLP Rescue Team
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 * I attempt to eradicate Dead-end pages.
 * I add stub tags, where needed.
 * My edit stats

title: User:TiMike


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Yibna

Yibna (يبنا; Jabneh or Jabneel in Biblical times; Jamnia in Roman times; Ibelin to the Crusaders), or Tel Yavne, is an archaeological site and depopulated Palestinian town. The ruins are located immediately southeast of the modern Israeli city of Yavne.

The town had a population of 5,420 in 1948, located 15 kilometers southwest of Ramla. Most of the population fled after the fall of al-Qubeiba and Zarnuqa in late May, but armed males were forced back. Israeli forces took the town on June 5 and expelled the remaining population.

It is a significant site for post-biblical Jewish history, as it was the location of the Council of Jamnia, considered the birthplace of modern Rabbinic Judaism. It is also significant in the history of the Crusades, as the location of the House of Ibelin.

Name
In many English translations of the Bible, it is known as Yavne or Jabneh. In classical antiquity, it was known as Jamnia (Iamnia); to the Crusaders as Ibelin; and before 1948, as Yibna. (يبنا)

History
Based on written sources and archaeology, the history of Yavneh/Jabneh/Yibna goes back to the Iron Age and possibly to the Bronze Age. The Hebrew Bible mentions Yavneh repeatedly, as does Josephus. For more see Yavne.

Bronze and Iron Age
Salvage excavations carried out in 2001 by the Israel Antiquities Authority uncovered several burials at the northern foot of the original tell. Most of the burials are dated to the later Iron Age. One burial points to a late Bronze Age occupation.

A large Philistine favissa (deposit of cultic artifacts) was discovered on Temple Hill. Two excavation seasons in the 2000s led by Professor Dan Bahat revealed some Iron Age remains. Pottery sherds of the Iron Age and Persian period were discovered at the surface of the tell.

Roman period with Herodians
In Roman times, the city was known as Iamnia, also spelled Jamnia. It was bequeathed by Herod the Great upon his death to his sister Salome I. Upon her death, it passed to the Roman emperor Augustus, who managed it as a private imperial estate, a status it was to maintain for at least a century. After Salome's death, Iamnia came into the property of Livia, the future Roman empress, and then to her son Tiberius.

During the First Jewish–Roman War, when the Roman army had quelled the insurrection in Galilee, the army then marched upon Iamnia and Azotus, taking both towns and stationing garrisons within them. According to rabbinic tradition, the tanna Yohanan ben Zakkai and his disciples were permitted to settle in Iamnia during the outbreak of the war, after Zakkai, realizing that Jerusalem was about to fall, sneaked out of the city and asked Vespasian, the commander of the besieging Roman forces, for the right to settle in Yavne and teach his disciples. Upon the fall of Jerusalem, his school functioned as a re-establishment of the Sanhedrin.

Byzantine period
Byzantine period finds from excavations include an aqueduct east of the tell, and a kiln. The world's largest wine factory from the Byzantine period has been uncovered by Israeli archaeologists, after a two-year excavation process; the importance of its wine was exemplified by its use by emperor Justin II in 566 at his table during his coronation feast.

Early Islamic period
The historian al-Baladhuri (d. 892 CE) mentioned Yibna as one of ten towns in Jund Filastin conquered by the Rashidun army led by Amr ibn al-As during the Muslim conquest of the Levant. The 9th-century historian Ya'qubi wrote that it was an ancient city built on a hill and inhabited by Samaritans.

The geographer al-Maqdisi, writing around 985, said that "Yubna has a beautiful mosque. From this place come the excellent figs known by the name of Damascene." The geographer Yaqut al-Hamawi wrote that in Yubna there was a tomb said to be that of Abu Hurayra, a Companion of the Prophet. The author of the Marasid also adds that tomb seen here is also said to be that of Abd Allah ibn Sa'd, another Companion of the Prophet.

In 2007, remains ranging from the early Islamic period until the British Mandate period were uncovered. An additional kiln, and part of a commercial/industrial area were uncovered at the west of the tell in 2009.

Crusader, Ayyubid and Mamluk periods
The Crusaders called the city Ibelin and built a castle there in 1141. Two excavation seasons led by Professor Dan Bahat starting in 2005 revealed the main gate. Its namesake noble family, the house of Ibelin, was important in the Kingdom of Jerusalem and later in the Kingdom of Cyprus. Salvage excavations at the west of the tell unearthed a stash of 53 Crusader coins of the 12th and 13th centuries.

Ibelin was first sacked by Saladin before his army was comprehensively routed at the Battle of Montgisard in late 1177. In August 1187, it was retaken by Saladin and burned down, and ceased for some time to form part of the Crusaders' kingdom. The Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela (1130–1173) identified Jamnia (Jabneh) of classical writers with the Ibelin of the Crusades. He places the ancient city of Jamnia at three parasangs from Jaffa and two from Ashdod (Azotus).

During the Mamluk period (13th–16th centuries), Yibna was a key site along the Cairo—Damascus road, which served as a center for rural religious and economic life. Ibelin's parish church was converted into a mosque, to which a minaret was added during the Mamluk period in 1337. The minaret survives until today, while the mosque (the former Crusader church) was blown up by the Israeli army in 1950.

The Mausoleum of Abu Huraira, a maqam (religious shrine), in Yibna was described as "one of the finest domed mausoleums in Palestine". The site has been considered by Muslims as the tomb of Abu Huraira since the 12th century. After Israel's capture of Yibna in 1948, the shrine was taken over by Sephardic Jews who consider the tomb as the burial place of Rabbi Gamaliel of Yavne.

Ottoman period
The land became part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517. In the 1596 Ottoman tax registers, it fell under the nahiya (subdistrict) of Gaza, part of the liwa' (district) of Gaza, with a population of 129 households, an estimated 710 persons, all Muslims. The villagers paid a fixed tax rate of 25% on a number of crops, including wheat, barley, summer crops, sesame seeds and fruits, as well as goats, beehives and vineyards; a total of 34,000 akçe. Three quarters of the revenues went to a waqf (religious endowment).

In the French campaign in Egypt and Syria in 1799, it was noted on the map that Pierre Jacotin compiled that year as 'Ebneh'.

An American missionary, William Thomson, who visited Yibna in 1834, described it as a village on hill inhabited by 3,000 Muslims who worked in agriculture. He wrote that an inscription on the mosque indicated that it had been built in 1386, while Denys Pringle indicates 1337 as the construction year of the minaret. In 1838, Yibna was noted as a Muslim village in the Gaza district.

An Ottoman village list from about 1870 found that Yibna had a population of 1,042 living in 348 houses, though this number only counted adult males. In 1882, the Palestine Exploration Fund's Survey of Western Palestine described Yibna as a large village partly built of stone and situated on a hill. It had olive trees and corn to the north, and gardens nearby.

British Mandate
In 1921, an elementary school for boys was founded in Yibna. By 1941-42 it had 445 students. A school for girls was founded in 1943, and by 1948 it had 44 students.

In the 1922 census of Palestine conducted by the British Mandate authorities, Yibna had a population of 1,791; all Muslims, increasing in the 1931 census to 3,600, of whom all were Muslims except for seven Christians, two Jews and one Baha'i, living in a total of 794 houses.

In 1941, the kibbutz of Yavne was established nearby by refugees from Germany, followed by a Youth Aliyah village, Givat Washington, in 1946.

In 1944-45, Yibna had a population of 5,400 Muslims and 20 Christians, while the total land area was 59,554 dunams, according to an official land and population survey. In addition there were 1,500 nomads living around the village. A total of 6,468 dunams of village land was used for citrus and bananas, 15,124 were used for cereals, 11,091 were irrigated or used for orchards, of which 25 were planted with olive trees, while 127 dunams were classified as built-up areas.

1948 and aftermath
Yibna was in the territory allotted to the Jewish state under the 1947 UN Partition Plan. In mid-March 1948, a contingent of Iraqi volunteers moved into the village. In a Haganah reprisal on March 30, two dozen villagers were killed. On April 21, the Iraqi village commander was arrested by the British authorities for the drunken shooting of two Arabs.

During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, residents of Zarnuqa sought refuge in Yibna, but left after Yibna's inhabitants accused them of being traitors. On 27 May, following the fall of nearby al-Qubayba and Zarnuqa, most of the population of Yibna fled to Isdud, but Yibna's armed males were forced back to Yibna by Isdud's militiamen. According to the official history, the Israeli Givati Brigade was interested in evacuating the village. On June 5, after a brief firefight, they took the village and found it deserted apart from a few old people who were expelled. Refugees fleeing the village were fired at 'to increase [their] panic.'

After 1948, a number of Israeli villages were founded on Yibna's land: Kfar HaNagid and Beit Gamliel in 1949, Ben Zakai in 1950, Kfar Aviv (originally: "Kfar HaYeor") in 1951, and Tzofiyya in 1955. According to the historian Walid Khalidi, a railroad crosses the village. The old mosque and minaret, together with a shrine can still be seen, and some of the old houses are inhabited by Jewish and Arab families.

Archaeological excavations have revealed that part of the pre-1948 Arab village at Yibna was built on top of a Byzantine-period cemetery and refuse pits.

Cultural references
Palestinian artist Sliman Mansour made Yibna the subject of one of his paintings. The work, named for the village, was one of a series of four on destroyed Palestinian villages that he produced in 1988 in order to resist the cancellation of Palestinian history; the others being Yalo, Imwas and Bayt Dajan.

The harbour of Javneh
The harbour of ancient Yavneh has been identified on the coast at Minet Rubin (Arabic) or Yavne-Yam (Hebrew), where excavations have revealed fortification going back to the Bronze Age Hyksos. It has been in use from the Middle Bronze Age until the 12th century CE, when it was abandoned. For more see Yavne-Yam.

Notable residents/descendants

 * Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi
 * Muhammad Youssef al-Najjar
 * Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook

title: Yibna


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Talk:J. M. Barrie

"at the Internet Movie Database"
The sentence "The BBC made an award-winning miniseries by Andrew Birkin, The Lost Boys at the Internet Movie Database. . ." seem awkwardly worded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.117.246 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 12 December 2006

— Asch jr. talk to me 11:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason is that the IMDB Title template was used, which appends some text which may not be relevant to the context. I've replaced the IMDB link with a wikilink which I found on the disambiguation page for The Lost Boys.

Death of David Barrie?
I believe Barrie's brother David died while young and may have been part of the inspration for Peter. Will verify this and if true add it. Any comments anyone ? Julianp 01:17, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

 * David Barrie died in January 1867, and he was the third brother, therefore probably <5 years old (and certainly <7). I think the inspiration part is speculative. - Nunh-huh 01:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks for that. I know of one commentator who stated that Barrie's mother had once said that David would remain "forever young". If true that would indeed suggest a clear inspiration for Peter. Any info on that one? Julianp 01:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Drat, now you've made me do research and I have to retract David's age at death, as he was an older brother: killed in a skating accident aged 13. Here's what Andrew Birkin says in J.M. Barrie and the Lost Boys: "Barrie was too young to remember the tragedy with any clarity, his chief memory being that of playing with his younger sister Maggie under the table on which stood David's coffin. For his mother, however, it was a catastrophe beyond belief, and one from which she never fully recovered"..."If Margaret Ogilvy drew a measure of comfort from the notion that David, in dying a boy, would remain a boy for ever, Barrie drew inspiration." So you can safely ascribe the contention that David was an inspiration for Peter to Birkin. - Nunh-huh

 * Nice one. My pathetic excuse for not checking it myself is that I have to do some work now and again !!

 * Why no mention of Psychogenic_dwarfism? He is mentioned there and on other sites http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Munoz.html, http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ogilvie/margaret.html) as a psychogenic dwarf, but is this confirmed somewhere?

 * Pictures of him imply he was not a dwarf or even remarkably short: http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/features/images/Barrie-350W.jpg This picture shows him alongside H. G. Wells who, also, wasn't a dwarf: http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/welsbari.jpg Pictures of him on http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk also show him as being noticably taller than the women and children around him. CaerieD 19:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

milk and cookies
... Barrie stated that they would tell stories, have warm milk and cookies, and that it is was very charming.
 * I doubt that he would have used THOSE words.... "milk and cookies" is very much an American expression. IVoteTurkey 01:25, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think the "milk and cookies" and "charming" addition at the end of the Barrie article are in reference to the statement Michael Jackson made about why he likes being around children. I guess someone just couldn't resist making a comparison.

Inspiration for Peter Pan
an excellent article by Anthony Lane on J.M. Barrie and the inspiration for the creation of Peter Pan appears in the November 22, 2004 issue of The New Yorker Magazine (a link to this article was added to "external links" section January 21, 2005) (contributor Khyber453@comcast.net) this change is a response to a request in the "Talk" section of Wikipedia for information about Barrie family history.

accusations of pedophilia
I am a bit disappointed that the article practically opens with an excuse (about his NOT being a pdeophile). As the French well know, qui s'excuse s'accuse, and Barrie needs no apologists, he seems to have handled himself with great dignity. That does not mean that he did not love his boys deeply, or that he did not enjoy their physical beauty. But no mention of that anywhere. He may have been short, but it is us who are the dwarves. Haiduc 03:32, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have just watched the film with K.Winslet and J.Depp, and have been very surprised instead, to discover here that J. M. Barrie falsefied the will of Sylvia Llewelyn Davies in order to become one of the tutors of the kids. To me, this is a clear sign that the mother did not trust him and opens the path to innuendos about pedophilia. I'd like the reference to this fact to be clearer --S vecchiato (talk) 10:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't see how JMB's action says anything about Sylvia's opinion of him. For years she clearly had trusted him with the boys, and the fact that she named him as co-guardian (along with their uncles and her mother) supports that.  She also expressed the hope that the boys would look to him as a father figure.  JMB inserting himself into that section is hard to explain (the names look a lot alike and I think he - perhaps wishfully - misread her handwriting), but ultimately it's beside the point, because he was already intimately involved in their lives... with Sylvia's approval.  I've updated the text to make this more clear. - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you JasonAQuest. I was curious. You have acces to Barkin's book maybe? --S vecchiato (talk) 16:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, I have Andrew Birkin's book. - JasonAQuest (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

When I read the article the first time, this stuck out to me (though it is not in the opener) because the thought that he sexually abused the boys never entered my mind until I read the defense against the rumors. I could understand why others would assume the worst about a man but I disregard it as rumors. It's quite an extraordinary claim to accuse someone of sexual abuse and being a pedophile. I want to remove the entire paragraph outright on the same logic as Haiduc and the Wikipedia policies surrounding verifiability and speculation. In other words, it "sounds like it is true, so it must be true" doesn't seem reasonable. As such, I've added the Who? tag to the speculative line (which the rest of the paragraph responds to). If, in fact, someone has gone on the record of accusing Barrie of these behaviors then it seems notable, verifiable and, due to the already researched defense providing neutrality, acceptable. Otherwise, I hope someone deletes the rumor mongering line (and thus the rest of the paragraph is rendered unnecessary). BossAnders (talk) 14:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

 * The rumor is so widespread in modern times - even to the point of being simply assumed by many to be true - that I feel it would be irresponsible for the article to stay silent about it. As cited in the article, Nico took the trouble to deny it, and Lord Boothby (a former schoolmate of Michael's), volunteered his opinion on the subject in an interview without even being directly asked.  It should be easy to demonstrate that it's a common question by citing articles that bring it up. Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As I have now done. In looking for this references, I also discovered that there's a rather sensational book out in the UK (Captivated by Piers Dudgeon) that asserts some rather malicious things about JMB's relationship with the Davies boys. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It wasn't primarily his boy-lust that should be considered. I owned a book several years ago (I'm only 25 and it was an old book) that was called something like "the sex lives of famous people" and it discussed Barrie in great detail. From what I remember, he was suspected of dying a virgin, and was mainly a voyeur and had a shockingly large collection (his own photos) of nude children. I'm considering this book fairly accurate as it refuted the Catherine the Great horse death story and explained that she was just a size queen, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.145.94.146 (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it's not accurate. OK, JMB probably did die a virgin.  But the only nude photos I've heard of from any Barrie biographer doing original research (even including Dudgeon) were some innocent vacation snapshots of the Davies boys playing in the water. This one for example, was included in the storybook album he gave to the boys' parents as a gift.  (Perhaps you're misremembering something about Charles Dodgson, who did produce quite a few nude child portraits?) -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

 * and there has since been speculation that Barrie was a paedophile or that he engaged in child sexual abuse.
 * This is such historical revisionism. These concepts didn't even exist then. The term "pederast" was used, but taking the modern concepts and imposing them back in time with their modern connotations is just ridiculous. --75.108.199.245 (talk) 23:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A statement that in modern times JMB has sometimes been suspected of a sexual attraction to the boys and of possibly acting on it, is not "historical revisionism". It's a statement of what people have said about him in modern times, and serves to introduce the evidence that this speculation appears to be incorrect.  If you doubt that this speculation exists, it's not hard to find. The cited Globe article is an example. So is this review of Finding Neverland in Newsweek. Roger Ebert commented on it too . Lead us not into temptation: Catholic priests and the sexual abuse of children repeats the pedophilia rumor without questioning it, and adds that he probably abused the boys sexually. You'll find JMB featured on a site of Famous British Paedophiles. Really, it's a common assumption that he may have had sex with the boys, and if not that he wanted to. The assumption is almost certainly incorrect, and needs to be debunked (as the article does), but I don't see the value in pretending that neither of these accusations exists. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 11:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

 * ...it's a common assumption that he may have had sex with the boys, and if not that he wanted to.

 * may have had sex here, but in the article child sex abuse? I think people can get carried away with assumptions, especially about material like this. Maybe he was just emotionally manipulative and possessive of people. I wouldn't use the term "child sex abuse" unless it was in a direct quote from a source that directly confronts the question (not a book about Catholic priests IMO). Maybe use may have had sexual contact, but not "child sexual abuse". That's a leap a source should make, not Wikipedia. --DanielCD (talk) 18:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please note: The article does not endorse the speculation; it only acknowledges that it exists, in order to explain why sources (and WP) have addressed it. (This is covered in earlier discussion, which questioned why it was necessary to report on the subject at all.)
 * I believe you are reading the sources I just cited with a greater degree of clinical specificity than the authors intended. When people speak of a "convicted pedophile" or a "pedophile priest" they don't mean that the person is merely attracted to children; they mean that he has sexually abused them.  I don't like it, but that's how people use the term.  I do think it's worthwhile to make a clear distinction on Wikipedia – hence saying that JMB has been the subject of speculation that he was one or both – but it is overreaching for us to deny that many people do suspect he had sex with the Davies boys, solely because they use the popular term for it rather than the clinically correct phrase. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree it should be mentioned. I'd hate to see a detail like this this get labored too much. What do you suggest? --DanielCD (talk) 09:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The details of his nude photos of the boys (this was, though, a popular thing for many photographers, seen as celebrating the innocence of childhood, an argument that has also been used for Lewis Carroll's nude child photos)and letters(in particular a very odd letter where he writes that he wishes one of the boys was a girl so he wouldn't feel uncomfortable about writing to him the way he does) to them, not to mention the changing of the will, do seem to show unhealthy obsession, but there is no definite evidence it was sexual. Male-male and female-female Victorian relationships could be romantic and hyperbolic without being sexual, but it seems odd for a grown man to have a romantic/paternal relationship with prepubescent boys, even if it was hyperbolic. Piers Dudgeon's books are full of inaccuracies and sensationalism. However, the evidence is contradictory on whether Barrie experienced sexual attraction. Nico said he had none to 'man, woman or child', but the biographer who interviewed Nico and the other boys, Andrew Birkin, said he often fell in love with actresses and would have been a womaniser if he'd not been impotent. 92.40.9.166 (talk) 13:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not uncommon for an asexual person to have romantic feelings, so that isn't really contradictory. This is a very old discussion... is there something specific about the current version of the article you wish to discuss? Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

spelling of Llewellyn-Davies
In the opening para, Llewellyn has 2 sets of double els, but later on it has only one such set. I don't know which version is correct. Can anybody assist? JackofOz 05:58, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thrums
His first two novels were set in Kirriemuir, disguised as "Thrums" (his father was a weaver).

What does Thrums mean, and what is the connection with weaving? Ubermonkey 13:28, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thrum EntChickie 16:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder why Anthony Powell put Barrie, and H.G. Wells in with the fictional writer St.John Clarke in his novel "The Acceptance World". (the three of them are in an old photograph, then they are discussed a bit). I suppose no one knows, but Powell introduced nearly every element for a reason Seminumerical 10:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Psychogenic dwarfism
The page for this condition mentions JM Barrie as a sufferer - this is a very serious condition usually found in feral children. Can anybody tell us whether he suffered the condition or something similar, and if so why ? thanks WinstonBerni 23:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Furthermore, the article says he "never reached puberty". However both illustrations of him show him wearing a mustache. Can this be explained? -- The Photon 01:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Not only does he have a moustache in every photo I've seen, he has an adult jawline. His face is not at all child-like. The page on psychogenic dwarfism says "regular growth will resume when the source of stress is removed."

 * Is there any evidence that he "never reached puberty"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.171.225.175 (talk • contribs) 04:37, September 10, 2006

 * Robert Sapolsky's Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers(3rd edition, 2004)) cites a discussion of Barrie's condition in Martin J. & Reichlin S.'s Clinical Neuroendocrinology (1st edition 1977) which says that Barries stopped growing as a child and that his marriage was never consummated (and grew to be obsessed with his mother and young boys). You can [ http://www.amazon.com/Why-Zebras-Get-Ulcers-Third/dp/0805073698/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/103-0704999-1879805?ie=UTF8 search inside Sapolsky's book at Amazon]. Search for "Barrie" and look at p105-106 and also the notes in the "back matter" section. This doesn't say anything specifically about puberty though, so perhaps the wording in this article should be changed to reflect these references Bwithh 14:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If Barrie 'never reached puberty' - how come he had a moustache, and quite a full one? A false one? Hardly. Delayed maybe, but never? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.8.122 (talk • contribs) 22:34, October 17, 2006

 * I removed the bit about him never having reached puberty--the source was a college student's paper, which itself linked to a websource that is no longer available. Katr67 19:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the psychogenic dwarfism is a cute allusion to Peter Pan at best. In the pictures at http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk he's shown with his mother and the Llewelyn-Davies children, including one of him and Michael, when Michael was twenty (http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk/images/scans/1920-04-11-PX677-JMB-MLD.620.jpg). He's clearly of normal height. CaerieD 19:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the claim about Barrie suffering from Psychogenic Dwarfism. As CaerieD explains above, he seems to have been of average height for his own family if not the general population. The only source for the claim was an undergraduate class paper. If it's true, we should be able to do better than that. Please do not re-insert the claim about Psychogenic Dwarfism unless you have a proper source for it. CKarnstein 21:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Another reference to his height and facial hair-- Uncle John's Absolutely Absorbing Bathroom Reader has an article titled "The Dark Side of Peter Pan," which states that after the death of Barrie's brother, he tried to comfort his mother by "imitating David's mannerisms and mimicking his speech. This bizarre charade went on for years...and only got weirder: when James reached 13, the age at wihich David had died, he literally stopped growing. He never stood taller than 5', and didn't shave until he was 24. He always had a thin, high-pitched voice" (p. 507).

This would explain the thirty-something moustache, and also the dwarfism references. I won't correct anything, but that's another, more trustworthy reference in regards to this issue. Diimmortales 01:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just edited back another overly-reaching statement about Barrie suffering from P.D., to acknowledge it as a theory (with the source), without the assertion of undocumented "facts" like the autopsy confirming he was pre-pubescent. - JasonAQuest (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

 * It's possible that Sapolsky is an unreliable source on Barrie, his claims can be found here, and he does not document them in the article.Brinerustle (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Let's see: He misspells the man's name, gets his age at death wrong by 17 years, places the story of him witnessing his brother's death as an 8-year-old in the decade before he was born, exaggerates his shortness, makes a dubious claim about a man with a bushy mustache never having reached puberty... I think it's safe to say that Sapolsky simply doesn't know what he's talking about in regard to Barrie. At best he's repeating info from an obviously unreliable source.  At least the 2004 edition of his book doesn't have the most serious errors of fact, but even without them he presents his hypothesis as a solid diagnosis, and there really isn't enough evidence to support his remote after-the-fact diagnosis. - JasonAQuest (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

May I add some generally accepted knowledge about Barrie's diminutive build and that of the local population. The east coast of Scotland traditionally has been known to have a breed of diminutive people of which Barrie was evidently one. His mother with the name of Ogilvy would indicate that she was a native of the east coast. The criminal history of Dundee cites a gang which terrified the city for a number of years known as the Cheeky Forty due to their diminutive size. The recently disbanned Gordon Regiment of Aberdeen was known for its minature sized soldiers and their tenacity. The average height of soldiers in WW1 was apparently 5' 3" (but I stand to be corrected on this point). Additionally, beards and mustaches in that era were in vogue probably similar to the cropped headed men of today (2010). One local Lady who apparently knew Barrie maintains that he was vain. Furthermore, I spent a few years as a Child Care Officer with the Fife County Council when I found it easy and enjoyable to write children's fiction yet upon departure from the post I lost this ability. This knowledge tells me that Barrie was a heterosexual but a tenaciously ambitious one, an intelligent man who understood the fears, frustrations, dreams, and desires of prepubescent boys. He also appears to have been a caring and honourable person; how, indeed, can anyone maintain otherwise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delparc (talk • contribs) 00:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the info (albeit uncited) about how common Barrie's height would be in that population. I'd remind you, however, that Wikipedia talk pages are not the place to speculate – and especially not to express our personal opinions – about his personality. Our goal here is only to accurately represent the best published information. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I had a look at Zebras Don't Get Ulcers on amazon and I'm not conviced of its reliability as a source for a claim that Barrie suffered from this condition. It also includes various other claims, such as the sentence "He also had a lifelong obsession with young boys and his private writing include passages of sado-masochism and paedophilia." I don't think speculation has a place here. He refers to a book by Martins and Reichlin called Clinical Neuroendrocrinology (1977) which looks like a better source if anyone has the chance to get hold of it. In the meantime, I think it is best to delete the speculative claim. Totorotroll (talk) 12:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

 * I also think this is worth having a look at regarding the reliability of the source: http://neverpedia.com/pan/Why_Zebras_Don%27t_Get_Ulcers Totorotroll (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Footnote reference link for psychogenic dwarfism
whats wrong with it?? why wont it work properly??!?!!? someone fix it!!??! urhghgughuhguurgh!!!! Bwithh 19:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Jack?
The article reads "after meeting George and Jack", but Jack is not mentioned earlier as one of the boys. Can someone please clarify? --1000Faces 07:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Jack was the more commonly used nickname for John, was the second eldest of the boys. --woggly 12:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

barrie and his mother
The reference to Barrie's mother on this page doesn't tally with the description in the Article from the new yorker; http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/041122crat_atlarge?041122crat_atlarge

The room was dark, and when I heard the door shut and no sound come from the bed I was afraid, and I stood still. I suppose I was breathing hard, or perhaps I was crying, for after a time I heard a listless voice that had never been listless before say, “Is that you?” I think the tone hurt me, for I made no answer, and then the voice said more anxiously “Is that you?” again. I thought it was the dead boy she was speaking to, and I said in a little lonely voice, “No, it’s no’ him, it’s just me.” Then I heard a cry, and my mother turned in bed, and though it was dark I knew that she was holding out her arms.

This sounds quite different, and implies she loved him for himself; that he was the one who felt she would prefer his brother. Should the wiki article be corrected? I don't know the sources well enough myself. JClare 22:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Acquaintances
I seriously doubt whether Barrie met either Robert Louis Stevenson or Arthur Conan Doyle at Edinburgh University. Sure he corresponded with Stevenson, but as far as I know they never actually met in person. Given that Stevenson was ten years his senior, doesn't make sense that they would have met as students. I believe he met Conan Doyle in London. The two were indeed friends, and even collaborated on a flop musical. All in all the section about his acquaintances is sorely lacking: Barrie basically knew everyone who was anyone back in his day. --woggly 12:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

John Lennon song Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)
The line Life is what happens to you, while you're busy making other plans. Is this a Barrie quote? GoodDay 23:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation Needed?
Wondering if anyone agreed with this...Quote under the Llewellyn-Davies section states "Following Sylvia's death a few years later, Barrie claimed that they had been engaged to be married." In none of my research, have I ever heard this claim. Does anyone have a citation for this? I assumed it was a well-known fact that the feelings Barrie had towards Sylvia were purely platonic.--sidahboo 08:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

 * It's brought up on page 191 of J.M.Barrie and the Lost Boys. Both Jack and Nico reported hearing the claim; Peter said it was wishful thinking on JMB's part. - JasonAQuest (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Scottish or British
Contrary to what User:79.73.94.229 asserted in the edit history, Scottish writers are commonly identified in their intros as "Scottish", not as "British". I just looked at over a dozen random entries on list of Scottish writers, and all but one called the subject "Scottish". (The exception was Robbie Burns(!), whose intro paragraph doesn't apply an adjective to him, but is instead littered with references to "Scotland" and "Scots".) While "British" may be more common among English UK writers, I believe that merely reflects a tendency for English people in general to identify themselves as "British" rather than "English"; this is markedly less common for Scottish people. Wikipedia's convention is to use the term the subject uses/would have used, and I think it's pretty clear that despite his long residence in London (where the theatre scene was) JMB - whose family, favorite holiday spots, and choice of burial site were all in Scotland - was "Scottish". - JasonAQuest (talk) 23:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Well unless you know JM Barrie personally or have some way of contacting him, that is just your opinion that he would prefer that term. English writer JK Rowling is titled a British writer on her page, and the tendancy is for other people to label English people as British and Scottish people as Scottish. 79.74.53.132 (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Obviously I don't know him personally, but his foster-son Peter Llewelyn Davies certainly did, and he called Barrie a "little Scotch genius". I had no real opinion about it before I started researching him, but after reading three books about him, it seems clear to me that "Scottish" fits him.  He grew up in Scotland, went to school and university in Scotland, made a name for himself writing about Scotspeople, went back to Scotland to marry, formed a pen-pal relationship with Robert Louis Stevenson based on their common Scottishness (and literary interests), repeatedly brought "his boys" to Scotland for holidays, was rector of a Scottish university and chancellor of another, and was buried in Scotland.  Other reference works - even Encyclopedia Britannica - describe him as "Scottish".  We do have access to J. K. Rowling, and can ask her whether she prefers "British" over "English", so I have no problem with that either way.  But on what basis do you presume to know that Barrie would prefer "British"?  Because that's what you're doing by changing it.  The fact remains that other Scottish writers are typically described in Wikipedia as "Scottish"; why shouldn't that apply to Barrie? - JasonAQuest (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

His Scottishness is made perfectly clear throughout the entire article, his place or birth is given first and foremost, and I am not the one presuming to know anything about Barrie's personal preferences in regard to identity. He was a baronet of the British Empire and he lived in Britain all his life (but not in Scotland all his life). I don't see why referring to his nationality should be perceived as refusing to acknowledge his lifelong connections to his ethnic background. 79.74.35.122 (talk) 02:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You are presuming that he'd prefer "British", because you changed it to that. Why?  The original reason you gave (claiming it was contrary to Wikipedia convention) is bogus, so... why? - JasonAQuest (talk) 03:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, stop trying to tell me what I am saying by my actions, as it's just plain arrogant and unhelpful to the discussion. I could claim that what you are saying by your actions is that the national identity of British people in the United Kingdom is inferior to their constituent region and that you are pushing an agenda that separatism rules. The original reason I gave still stands, and unless there is going to be a blanket policy on Wikipedia that stipulates that all writers from the UK should be labelled by their individual ethnicities or national identities, this dispute will not be resolved. 79.73.31.60 (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I am not guessing at your motivation, just pointing out that you're making the same sort of unsupported assumption you accuse me of. You're applying a double standard: your preference to change it need not be justified objectively, but the existing version must be defended.  You are pushing to change it, but accuse me of pushing an agenda because I wish to keep it as it's read since the article was created in 2002.  What would be helpful is if you'd actually answer my question: Why change it?  Your original justification does not stand, because it ignores the fact that Scottish writers are rather consistently described as Scottish in other Wikipedia articles.  You evidently think they should not be, and that can certainly be debated, but Wikipedia precedent does not support changing it here.  Conventional usage elsewhere does not support changing it here.  The consensus of the article's history does not support changing it.  I'm listening for an argument that does.  (For the record: as a German-Hispanic-Dutch American I don't care one way or the other about political separatism in the UK.  Scotland can be ruled from London, Edinburgh, or even Caernarfon for all I care.  If that's what you're really arguing about here, please set it aside, because it's not relevant.) - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is it not enough that the entire article makes his Scottish ethnicity more than obvious? There is nothing wrong with calling him a British novelist and dramatist since his birthplace and hertitage discussed in detail. 194.73.217.244 (talk) 14:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

 * But what's wrong with describing him as "Scottish"? Why is it necessary to change it?  It's a simple and perfectly appropriate question to someone pushing for a change to a long-standing consensus, and I have yet to see it explained. - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's the overriding consensus amongst nationalists, zealots and separatists, and just because it's longstanding doesn't make it correct. I have yet to see it explained why "British" is so unacceptable when his Scottish ethnicity is detailed throughout the entire article - but I can't be bothered to ask you because this is a SUPER boring debate now! I love it when people just strangle the life out of things to bore other people into submission. Let the nationalists and ignorant Americans prevail! Hurray hurray! 79.73.83.148 (talk) 16:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Still no answer to my question, just a repetition of the double standard, and a combination of personal attack and nationalist slur. Sorry that this fight you started went on longer than you'd hoped, but I'd still rather be boring than boorish. - JasonAQuest (talk) 16:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well you get a home run for being both - congrats ;-D 194.73.217.244 (talk) 16:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
I don't know if anyone agrees, but I think the Infobox Notable Works section is terrible. Doesn't he have other notable works that aren't about Peter Pan? Dear Brutus, for instance? --15lsoucy (talk) 11:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone ever refer to him as "J.M. Barrie, the author of Dear Brutus (or whatever)"? Do they routinely mention certain works in addition to Peter Pan when they talk about him? - Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's probably his greatest success besides Peter Pan. Hmmm. Maybe I was clouded. Sorry. --15lsoucy (talk) 23:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's a source for it... - Jason A. Quest (talk) 10:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, I mean Charles Dickens has eight books on his list and H. G. Wells has six... --15lsoucy (talk) 03:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Alice Sit-By-The-Fire
Wikipedia shows a date of 1919, but according to the Internet Broadway Database, Beatrice Agnew, Ethel Barrymore, and John Barrymore appeared in a double bill with "Pantaloon" at the Criterion Theatre on Broadway in New York City. The opening date was Christmas Day, 1905. Agnew and John Barrymore were in both plays. Lionel Barrymore appeared in "Pantaloon" A version available on Amazon has a 1905 date ( http://www.amazon.com/Alice-Fire-James-Matthew-Barrie/dp/1406929247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274535281&sr=8-4) Jtyroler (talk) 13:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

 * 1905 is correct; Alice was his first play after Peter Pan. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

New play - Mythmakers - about the friendhip between JM Barrie and Scott of the Antarctic
--Mais oui! (talk) 06:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Two friends who took the world by storm, The Scotsman, 2 September 2010

Opera Jane Annie
quote: "Barrie also authored Jane Annie, a failed comic opera for Richard D'Oyly Carte (1893), which he begged his friend Arthur Conan Doyle to revise and finish for him."

This should be rewritten in two or three sentences. Our list of works--maybe unreliable in this--implies that Doyle did help and finish it in some sense before 1893. Also that the music was written by someone else--reliable, I'm sure. What does "for R.D.C." mean? When did it fail and in what sense, at Barrie's hand or after Doyle helped?

--P64 (talk) 00:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Richard D'Oyly Carte was the owner of the Savoy theater, and requested JMB to write it. The production failed at the box office. See Jane Annie for more info. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The Little Minister
Regarding Little Minister or The Little Minister, subject of revise-and-revert a few hours ago.
 * WorldCat: Barrie reports it his second most widely-held title in libraries (with a high score, i know from experience)
 * FYI, here are the U.S. library of congress catalog records with early dates.

We disambiguate unusually, The Little Minister (disambiguation). Presumably our now-primary film article The Little Minister will be renamed if someone writes a book and/or play article.

--P64 (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Images
Both images of Barrie in the article are misdated, the first is a crop of an 1892 photo by Herbert Rose Barraud in the National Portrait Gallery, the second is not dated in the Library of Congress, but there is no way it is 1910 as Barrie had aged considerably by then, here's a photo of Barrie from 1909. It looks close to the 1892 portrait and the 1894 Elliott & Fry portrait at the NPG. If there are no objections I will relabel, possible adding further images of him at a greater age. Vladeraz (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Both images corrected, one added. There are later images from 1909 and 1922 but you'd need to prove these were published before 1923 in the US to be public domain. Vladeraz (talk) 18:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Houses in Kensington and Bayswater
I've removed the details about the two houses Barrie lived in in Gloucester Place and Bayswater Road firstly because the Literary Career section wouldn't be the right place for this and also because some of the facts about the house are incorrect or not properly sourced. The first reference from the Telegraph reads more like an estate agent's blurb, wishful thinking of the occupier: the house in Gloucester Road is not the inspiration for the Darlings' house. Barrie himself states in the opening of the play that the Darlings live in Bloomsbury, based on the house where he had lodgings when he first moved to London. Besides, there is no balcony in either the play or novel, just a window.

In the house in Bayswater Road, Barrie had a studio at the back of the garden, where he wrote Peter Pan, but he didn't use a room upstairs (source: Denis Mackail's biography, listed in the reference section). You need to be subscribed to the Sunday Times to read the article in full, so the reference is not acceptable for WP (and besides, it's full of mistakes and estate agent's hype). --Stelmaris (talk) 20:42, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Agreed. However it is not a requirement that an article be available to read online; if it were Mackail's book would not be acceptable. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Absolutely, it has never been a requirement that references are available online, which is why there is a 'subscription required' parameter in the citation template. Actually, you can access the Sunday Times article online with an account from any British library. It was clumsy of me to put the information in the wrong section, but thankfully user:Tmol42 kindly moved the deleted information to the correct section. If the information about Barrie working upstairs is incorrect I'll remove it, but the citations I've used are perfectly adequate as references for the other information I've added unless and until someone supplies some of better quality. Richerman    (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Point taken, and sorry I jumped in too quick! I have however deleted all that trivia about the previous occupants of the Gloucester Road house, which wasn't even based on reality. I would also point out the Sunday Times article about the house in Bayswater is full of factual errors (such as the reference to Porthos, who died before the Barries moved into the house), and is not what could be considered as a serious journalistic piece, but an article on the Property section of the newspaper, possibly partly paid for by the estate agents to hype up interest.--Stelmaris (talk) 09:31, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm lost now (sorry about the pun!) - I never added any trivia about the previous occupants. The only edit you made since the information was moved into the marriage section was to delete the bit about the balconies here. Incidentally, before I made these additions there was nothing in the article about the couple moving to London. When did they move from Nottingham and where else did they live? You've mentioned here a flat in Bloomsbury but there's nothing about that in the article although the "Bloomsbury scenes" are mentioned with no real context. Obviously the move to Kensington was important for the development of the Peter Pan story and meeting the LLewellyn Davies boys. Richerman    (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I meant the trivia about the balconies - and I didn't necessarily meant that for you, sorry if you got that impression.

Only Barrie lived in Nottingham, from 1882 to 1884, before going back to Scotland. Then in 1885 he moved down to London and took up various lodgings first in Bloomsbury (Guilford Street, Grenville Street, Furnival Inns) as well as in the Marylebone and Mayfair areas when still a bachelor. The lodgings in Grenville are the ones referred to in the first scene of Peter Pan, setting the scene and location for the Darlings' house. Both Barrie and Mary lived in London when they got married and the house in Gloucester Road was the first he ever purchased. The move to South Kensington was definitely important in his life and the development of the Peter Pan stories, starting with The Little White Bird he wrote while in Gloucester Road, then the play while in Leinster Corner (and Black Lake Cottage). After his divorce, he moved to the Adelphi building off the Strand, where he wrote the novel Peter and Wendy. All of this information is found in Denis Mackail's very detailed biography, written shortly after Barrie's death, which is listed on the page. I would add all this to the page, but I'm not sure in what section? --Stelmaris (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I've just edited the paragraph, and deleted the text about the Barries moving to London, because they already lived in the city. They were married in Kirriemuir because he had fallen ill when visiting his mother, and Mary (then newly engaged) came up to nurse him. After their marriage, they went travelling on the Continent (mainly Switzerland) before returning to London in 1895, when they bought the house in Gloucester Road.--Stelmaris (talk) 15:06, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

 * I think that shows that the article needs a bit of restructuring. I would suggest that the Literary career section should be retitled Later life and literary career. Then details of the various properties, his life and marriage could be worked into that section. I don't see any reason why his marriage warrants a section of its own. Richerman    (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

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Unreferenced documentary
Someone keeps adding a documentary about Peter Pan to the page but it's unsourced, unreferenced and there's no information as to where or when it's been aired, or its producer. Research shows it has not been broadcast in the UK or US. So, unless the contributor adds a citation showing some notability, I will keep removing it. --Stelmaris (talk) 09:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Nationality/citizinship?
In the bio box it has JM as Scottish as his nationality, and British as his citizenship, is that correct according to Wiki? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality#Nationality_versus_citizenship. Halbared (talk) 12:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything incorrect about it. WP:UKNATIONALS doesn't present hard-and-fast rules, but JMB was born and raised in Scotland, his early work identified strongly with Scotland, and he identified as a Scot, so it makes sense to state that as his nationality. His citizenship was definitely British (i.e. UK). -Jason A. Quest (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Hyperlink on the 'Peter Pan' tab should be removed
In my opinion, the hyperlink on the 'Peter Pan' tab should be removed and should instead be moved to the 'See also' section because in my opinion it looks strange that one tab has a hyperlink on it but the rest don't, making the article lack consistency. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

 * You're right: section headers shouldn't be linked (and the name is already linked way earlier in the article). I also have no idea why it was a separate section from the rest of his bibliography, or why Honours was two sections. Fixed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Childhood in Bothwell
Somethings not right about his childhood story.

His brother died when they lived in Bothwell (near Hamilton) and he went to Bothwell Academy where his older brother was the headmaster (see this article - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bothwells-link-peter-pan-unveiled-2417216).

So he must have lived in Bothwell when he was 6 years old and his family must of moved there from Kirriemuir when younger than that. El dude brother2 (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I just realised the article says his brother David went to Bothwell Academy not JM himself so that makes sense. El dude brother2 (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

cousin / nephew / niece / uncle / aunt of chess player?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Winter_(chess_player)

learned from agadmator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L7CdoSDepQ Thewriter006 (talk) 17:57, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ambiguous wording
"Barrie was involved in the 1909 and 1911 attempts to challenge the censorship of the theatre by the Lord Chamberlain, along with a number of other playwrights." Is anyone else bothered by this, the last sentence of the 8th paragraph in the Literary Career section? It's impossible to tell, from this sentence, whether the Lord Chamberlain was attempting to censor or was, himself, involved in attempts to challenge the censorship. rowley (talk) 04:38, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I don't have a problem with that sentence. It's clear to me that it was the Lord Chamberlain's censorship of the theatre that Barrie was challenging, along with others. Stelmaris (talk) 07:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:J. M. Barrie