text:
Talk:Ben Nevis

Cable car
cable car to Torlundy, 701 m ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marc Venot (talk • contribs) 06:51, July 30, 2004 (UTC)

Photo labelling
How about labelling the photo of the arete to Carn Mor Dearg as that? There is reference to CMD arete in main article now.Linuxlad 17:04, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure, go ahead - I just took the photo, I didn't know the exact names involved and figured someone would come along who did. Stoive 19:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * ... and if it helps the photo was taken at grid ref approx 176 713 facing southwest (assuming I read the map off multimap correctly just now). There was quite a bit of fog/mist around at the time - part of the effect I was trying to capture, but which (considering your comment on my talk page) may also make it look smaller than it is. Stoive 22:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes (looking on old steam-powered OS Map ODL 32) that's about half way round the arete from CMD itself. Bob Linuxlad

Impressive?
"It is the most impressive mountain face in the United Kingdom " <-- That sentence is too subjctive, I think... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.76.31.8 (talk • contribs) 14:33, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

True, but not _that_ true. Try 'Considered by many (UK mountaineers) to be the most impressive on the mainland...' (there can't be many faces that high for a kick-off) Linuxlad

Yep, that sentence is quite subjective. I certainly don't agree with it and have met a lot of others who consider The Ben less impressive than many other faces. I think too that it should be changed. :) Chris 62.6.139.10 11:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

 * How about the 7km long "wall" on the Beinn Lair (a "mere" Corbett)? Quite impressive really! Grinner 13:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Fatalities
Surely most of the fatalities were due to falls while winter climbing, not rock climbing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.32.26.205 (talk • contribs) 14:06, March 22, 2006 (UTC)

No, most people are killed climbing the less-used routes. 92.8.194.2 (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Gaelic name
I don't claim to be able to speak Gaelic, but I've never encountered the spelling Beinn Nebhis before -- I've always seen Beinn Nibheis. A Googlefight gives 41 hits for Nebhis and 1200 for Nibheis. I'm inclined to change this unless anyone can find supporting evidence for the former spelling. ras52 11:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The etymology of the name is decidely questionable - the name Ben Nevis is far more likely to predate the invasion of the Scots and comes from the Pictish Ben Nefys - meaning the Head of Nefys. Ben/Pen means head in Pictish/Welsh and is often used to name mountains e.g. Ben Lawers (Scotland), Pen y Fan (South Wales), Pen y Ghent (North of England), etc. Come to Wales and there's loads more. There are lots more examples of pre Scottish (Pictish) names in Scotland e.g Aberdeen, Aberfoyle etc. The Scottish version of Aber is Inver. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.140.201.125 (talk) 20:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

 * The use of Pictish in northern Scotland is well known, although beyond the indirect place name evidence you mention little is known of the particulars. (See Scottish island names or the Lunnasting stone for example.) If you have a reliable source for "the Head of Nefys" please let us know. Ben   Mac  Dui  09:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

In any case, one has to hate these florid 'translations' of Gaelic (and other indigenous) names. I would suggest at least removing the word 'literal' in: 'A literal translation would therefore be "the mountain with its head in the clouds"'. That is not a literal translation it is a jolly figurative one. Positively imaginative, in fact. A literal translation would be Mount Pate-Cloud even if one swallows the strained etymology. DruartG (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Coincidence, doubtless - because as I remember my history, the Romans would never have had a chance to influence the name - but a latinised spelling of "Nibheis" would presumably be "Nivis". Which, in Latin, means "of snow". "Snowy mountain". 90.204.152.170 (talk) 06:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

 * The little evidence there is shows that the Picts spoke a Norse dialect. In Norse 'Nevis' would mean 'Head of Ice'. G W Gardiner (talk) 08:36, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Revert by Birdmessenger
I undid this, because it did not state to which version it reverted, and the reasons for it have not been stated. Viewfinder

Rewrite
As half-promised above, I've finally got round to doing a major rewrite and restructuring of this page. Parts of it still leave something to be desired, but the structure should provide a better framework for future improvement. I hope it meets with general approval. I'll add a few more photographs tomorrow. --Blisco 21:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending references
The origin of the name Ben Nevis is unclear. The word ben is certainly from beinn, the Gaelic word for 'peak', and Ben Nevis is sometimes referred to as 'The Ben'. Possibilities for the meaning of nevis include 'venomous' (from nimheil), 'burst' or 'flow' (from neb) and 'brow of keen air' (from neamh meaning 'keeness of air' and bathais meaning 'brow'). A locally popular suggestion that the name derives from nèamh meaning 'heaven' is rejected by etymologists.

This bit has been part of the article since very early on, and was written by the same contributor who inserted the erroneous Gaelic name 'Beinn Nebheis' (as questioned by ras52 above). I'm inclined to treat it as suspect; I've never seen the 'brow of keen air' theory anywhere else, and I don't think the anonymous 'etymologists' necessarily reject 'heaven' out of hand. I've moved here in case anyone can find any supporting references, and replaced it with a shorter, referenced etymology. --Blisco 18:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Three Peaks Challenge
I meant to say this when I made the relevant edit on 5 November, but better late than never. I removed mention of the National Three Peaks Challenge from the lead section, because, while notable, I didn't think the bare mention that "Ben Nevis is one of the mountains climbed as part of the Three Peaks Challenge" contributed much to the lead. I meant to try and incorporate it somewhere else in the article (e.g. under "Ascent routes"), but forgot. However, I think it would be better to contextualise it a bit: i.e. give some indication of how many people do the challenge and when, and whether or not it's considered to have a significant environmental impact. (According to the article, 29,000 people did the challenge in June 2003, which is a fair proportion of the 100,000 people who climb the Ben!) But if anyone wants to put it back straight away, with or without context, please do. --Blisco 17:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I've been trying to find a way of working in a brief mention of the standard long walks / fell runs that include Ben Nevis: the Lochaber Traverse (i.e. the whole of the north side of Glen Nevis: the Grey Corries, Aonachs, CMD and Nevis — a not too hard long day's walk), Tranter's Round (that plus the Mammores — which seems common amongst the serious fell runners) and Ramsay's Round (a modern extension to Tranter's). Perhaps these together with the National Three Peaks Challenge would naturally fit into a new section?  Incidentally, I'd love to see a source for 29,000 people doing the National Three Peaks in June 2003 — I simply don't believe that figure!  — ras52 10:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

pre-GA review
Are "Ascent routes" and "Climbing on Ben Nevis" necessary as separate sections? "Climbing..." has a stub section tag (how would it be a GA with stub sections?). The picture in the infobox has too long a caption (there's a guideline stating thet captions should be concise). That is the case with most pictures. "(See External links below for the full view.)" is not encyclopedic. Trivia should not be present in a GA candidate. Please fix this issues before receiving a full GA review. --69.19.14.26 03:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * What's wrong with trivia in a GA candidate? The GA criteria merely states "no non-notable trivia" [my emphasis].  The Ben Nevis distillery is moderately well known and is named after this mountain, so it is sufficiently notable and relevant, and its inclusion encylopedic.  The same is true of the New Zealand mountain (also named after this mountain).  I know nothing about the ship of Wendish settlers, so can't comment on them.  I'd be slightly sorry to see the removal of the piano story, but I'd agree it isn't terribly notable or encylopedic.

 * See Avoid trivia sections in articles. The piano could probably be incorporated somewhere else; the best place for the time being is probably "The summit", but it would be nice if we could find enough information to create a section on notable ascents, charity stunts and the like. (When I was there there was a man dressed as a moose on the summit, and this is no doubt a fairly regular phenomenon.) I'm not sure what to do with the rest of the Trivia section; maybe it would be enough to give it a different title? --Blisco 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for pointing that out. The piano story aside, everything in the trivia section are things named after Ben Nevis.  I'm not quite sure what an appropriate section title would be — "Things named after Ben Nevis" is rather unwieldy. — ras52 10:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Think I've solved this. The ship is pretty non-notable; relevant to the history of the Wendish people, perhaps, but not to this article, for the same reason that a certain bridge over the Thames isn't considered notable enough for inclusion in Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. I've shoved The Remarkables in a See also section: a cop-out perhaps, and I dislike such sections in general, but it's mostly harmless. The piano is now under the summit (so to speak). That just leaves the distillery, which I've turned into a proper section with some more information. Slàinte Mhath! --Blisco 13:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I've removed the "(See External links below for the full view.)", and have shortened all the captions to comply with WP:CAP. I've removed the section stub notice from the climbing section — in my view it's now just about got enough to justify this, though more would still be good.  I rather not merge the ascents and climbing sections. — ras52 12:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Some of the captions were over-wordy, but I don't think they need to be quite so brief. I've reinstated some of the deleted material (while trying to keep the wording concise) where it helps illustrate points mentioned in the text: e.g. the tourist route is well maintained; the summit cairn is lower than the observatory; cornices are a hazard; the Nevis Partnership is repairing paths.

 * I agree that climbing shouldn't come under ascents, since climbing is a distinct activity from getting to the summit, which most climbers tend not to be interested in. I'll see if I can do some web research and expand this a little. --Blisco 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * WP:CAP says more than three lines of text in a caption may be distracting. Personally, I'm not sure I agree, but that's irrelevant: this is a Wikipedia guideline, and we should try to stick to it where possible.  In my browser "The steep south face of Ben Nevis…" takes up five lines, and "The lower part of the Ben Path", seven (due to the narrowness of the image); a number of others take four.  The points that you mention — that the tourist route is well maintained; the summit cairn is lower than the observatory; cornices are a hazard; the Nevis Partnership is repairing paths — are all true and worthy of inclusion in the article.  And if it weren't for WP:CAP, I'd agree with you about putting them in the captions.  I don't propose to start a revert war by changing these, though I do think that per 69.19.14.26's comments, not changing them may hinder us achieving GA status.

 * I'm surprised at the Ben Path caption taking up seven lines; on my screen it takes up four. What are your monitor settings, and what do other people reading this page see? (I've got a 15-inch monitor at 1024x768 resolution, which is fairly small by modern standards.) Perhaps the solution in this case would be to widen the image a bit? Other than that one, none of the other captions take up more than three lines on my screen. I think it's unlikely that any article would fail a GA nomination for having captions this long; see for example the FA Slate industry in Wales, in which all of them are much longer. Having said that, I've looked through some of the recently Featured articles and most of them tend to use much shorter captions, so perhaps there is a case for keeping them short and sweet as a rule. -Blisco 00:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * On a completely separate note, do we have a source for the 75,000 people per year on the Ben Path? It's lower than I would have guessed. — ras52 10:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It is referenced, in the second paragraph of the lead section, though it's slightly hidden: "The mountain attracts an estimated 100,000 visitors a year,[1] around three quarters of whom use the well-constructed tourist path.[2]" I worded it this way to try and vary the prose style, but it's not overly clear, so if you think it would be better as a plain figure then do change it. --Blisco 00:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The 75,000 (also appears in caption) could be refered to Nevis Strategy - Summary, p8, prepared by the Nevis Working Party (forerunner of Nevis Partnership) October 2001. It is available in PDF at http://www.nevispartnership.co.uk/pdf/newnevis_strategy_summary.pdf, where the page number is 11. Finavon 09:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes indeed -- see footnote 2. Sorry I didn't quite make it clear. --Blisco 11:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

GA nomination on Hold for 7 days
Hello,

This article looks quite good. A lot of excellent work has been put into it, and I really have almost nothing to complain about. There were a few mildly glowing adjectives here and there that made the article sound just a bit like a pamphlet promoting tourism, but nothing unforgivable.

I put a few tags on the article, particularly on historical events. If I happened to put a tag on a fact that is actually referenced in a nearby sentence, please remove the tag and explain the deletion in a detailed edit summary.

In all, though, this article will be GA with just a bit of work. I don't think it should take the whole 7 days.

Good work!

Please feel free to ask if you have questions --Ling.Nut 05:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

 * This coming weekend (2/3 December) I'll be able to get my hands on one or two books that might help with referencing. If you wait until Tuesday or Wednesday that'll give me time to put those refs in.

 * Which bits did you think suffered from glowing adjectives and tourist-speak? My impression was that the language is pretty sober and neutral; I'd say "classic rock climbs" is about the only phrase that might be construed as glowing, but it's used in the factual sense of one that's been well known and renowned for a long period. --Blisco 23:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I did say mildly. :-) Don't worry about that; nothing is out of bounds. Just get the references, plus look up and down the article and see if any main points of the article were left unmentioned in the lead.--Ling.Nut 00:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination PASS
--Ling.Nut 00:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You said you'll fix the "citation needed" tags next week.
 * I was never concerned about the tourist-speak; I said nothing unforgivable from the start. In fact, I was surprised that what I considered to be a minor aside was later remarked upon. I think things are looking good.
 * I was kinda hinting earlier that I thought something should be mentioned in the lead. I apologize; hinting is counterproductive. I think something should be mentioned in the lead about C.T.R. Wilson's cloud chamber, because it is interesting and important.
 * But everything looks Good. Conclusion = PASS.

Observatory Date
The original date "late 1870s" was correct - proposed in 1877 according to both Roy (already cited) and Crocket, Ken "The Ben Nevis Mystery" (http://www.jmt.org/assets/pdf/journals/journal-38-january-2005.pdf) in JMT Journal 38 (January 2005) p19. The Observatory opened in 1883 (as already stated) I suggest restoring the "late 1870s" edit. Finavon 23:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

A Ben
The statement "it is often known simply as The Ben," is true if unsourced, but the same is also true of many other 'Bens'. Generally speaking 'Ben' is the honorific given to the highest mountain in any particular area. If you stand in the high streets of Alness, Dalwhinnie, or Tobermory, and ask for directions to 'The Ben' you will not end up in Lochaber. The statement is thus not so much untrue as misleading. Rather, I think it is true that in Lancastrian rock-climbing circles 'having a crack at The Ben' is a phrase that is unlikely to be ambiguous. I deference to these hardy souls I think it may be acceptable to amend the wording rather than remove it. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The stated reference does not verify the claim, hence the fact tag. Furthermore, this is referred to in the lead, but not expanded on in the article. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ben Nevis ale
I added this piece of trivia and the found to my annoyance that this brew has not yet made its way onto the website reference. However, as I have a bottle in my possession I believe the information to be accurate. I was reluctant to mention this in the citation. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.bottledbeer.co.uk/index.html?beerid=2403 Finavon 23:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Finavon - the above reference is now inserted. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC) PS I have a friend with a similar name to yours. You're not by any chance related?

More the Castle under your friend Finavon 16:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

To-do list
I've updated this with some of the points mentioned in the above discussions. If anyone would like to add or remove anything then go ahead. --Blisco 21:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Geology
The article states that the summit cliffs are granite but it's my understanding that they are lavas. They are certainly of that character as a climbing rock and the enclosed citation seems to confirm this (see 1.2 - this file is a 2.6Mb download)

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/commissioned_reports/F02LD01.pdf

Billo72 14:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm inclined to agree that those on the northern cliffs look more like lavas than granite, but then I'm no geologist. The rocks round on the CMD arête, Carn Mòr Dearg itself, and to some extent those in Coire Leis, do look like granite, though.  My (rather hazy) recollection is that those on the southern crags look like granite too.  — ras52 15:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * For those wanting to avoid downloading this large file, the relevant quote is "the summit and northern cliffs of Ben Nevis are made of andesite and basaltic lavas and tuffs. A granite intrusion forms the southern slopes of Ben Nevis and also the ridge of the Carn Dearg peaks." (I presume that by "Carn Dearg peaks" it means "the ridge of Carn Beag Dearg, Carn Dearg Meadhonach and Carn Mór [sic] Dearg".)  This is in agreement with the reference cited in the article (Miller's Ben Nevis Geology); the article simply mis-quotes the reference.  I've now fixed this in the article. — ras52 17:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for fixing my error. I'm even less of a geologist, as you can probably tell. Incidentally, if anyone wants to write about vegetation and land use this article would be a good place to start. --Blisco 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Tower Ridge
What do folks think should be done with Tower Ridge? I put the merge tags on, but I'm having second thoughts. I'm generally against the proliferation of articles, and don't want to encourage the creation of an article on every classic climb on the Ben, but I reckon it would unbalance this article to include such a detailed description. A more sensible option might be to create Climbing on Ben Nevis into which the stuff on Tower Ridge could be merged, but I doubt such an article would get much attention at the moment. Perhaps we should just leave it for six months and see what happens? --Blisco 20:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I oppose merging Tower Ridge into Ben Nevis. Leaving it where it is for now seems fine. It will probably never be a long article. If there is a proliferation of articles on other routes then Climbing on Ben Nevis would be appropriate. Finavon 19:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I also oppose for similar reasons. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

 * It seems quite similar to the detailed route information that used to live on the Aonach Eagach page. Blisco removed this, leaving a copy in his user area saying "I intend to move it to Wikibooks at some point".  Long term, I think the same should happen to the Tower Ridge page — the detail, beyond what's on this page, is not really encyclopedic.  But until that happens, I suggest we leave it as it is. — ras52 10:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'd have to say that it doesn't really look like encyclopedia material to me. Grinner 23:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Number of visitors
The lead section states that there are approximately 100,000 visitors each year. Having had a look at the reference, the John Muir Trust website says that there are around 100,000 ascents each year, which isn't exactly the same thing - there are keen fellrunners who will make multiple ascents each year. I'd suggest we either reduce the number of visitors, or change the wording of 'visitors' to 'ascents'. Clear air turbulence 22:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Be bold and fix it! If you don't have a figure for the number of visitors, I'd suggest changing the wording to 'ascents'.  I'd be curious to know whether this really makes a difference — my utterly unsourced, gut instinct impression is that the vast majority of visitors only make one ascent per year.  Nevertheless, your point is completely valid: the reference is about ascents, not visitors.  — ras52 22:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, it works both ways. My first "visit" wasn't an "ascent". I didn't reach the top! Thincat 12:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm being bold and fixing another discrepancy - the number on the image caption
 * 86.135.89.147 (talk) 22:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Quaint Scottish expressions
The lead section contains the word "outwith". Having worked with some lovely Scots folk over the years, I was well aware of its existence and its meaning. However, on the basis that the vast majority of readers are not Scots and will be confused, I was about to edit it to read "outside". On the edit page, I found that the author had anticipated me and had inserted a note explaining the word, no doubt to discourage edits. On the basis that he felt it so important I left it in, but would suggest that a GA status article should surely not include obscure dialect words for no apparent reason when there is a perfectly good English word that the majority of readers would understand much better. I know this probably seems trivial, but what do people think? kritikos99 16:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Quaint, my friend, is in the ear of the listener. This is a Scottish article and I can see no reason not to use a perfectly acceptable, and hardly opaque Scottish expression within it. WP:MOS, often ambiguous, seems quite clear on this subject. "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation uses the appropriate variety of English for that nation." Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, I wouldn't expect the author to agree with my query, no-one else got a point of view? Where we differ, I guess, is that I don't see that an article about a mountain has "strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation".  If the article was about bagpipes or haggis, then OK.  Sorry about the cliches...  The mountain could have been anywhere really. kritikos99 13:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

 * But why use a dialect word when "outside" is available and equally comprehensible for both Scots and non-Scots? It's one thing to use British instead of American spellings in an article pertaining to Britain; you have to pick one spelling or the other, so you might as well write with the spellings used by the relevant group of people. In this case, however, "outside" is universal while "outwith" is not. A. Parrot (talk) 03:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 * It's a perfectly acceptable "English" word and is used correctly here. It appears in Wiktionary. Even for those not used to hearing it, the meaning should be clear. We should not be dumbing down our language. Words that are not used will be "lost". "Outwith" is used, albeit in a limited geographical area - that to which this article refers. It is less likely to be confused than the alternative "without" (There is a green hill far away...)! On a wider issue, the article lead should summarise information from the article, so perhaps this sentence should be in Etymology, with "walkers and climbers from" changed to "vistors from". Finavon (talk) 07:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not even just Scottish, my other half is a native Yorkshireman and uses it. At best, it seems to be Nothern. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it certainly isn't Southern. I've never even heard of it. --Mark J (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Image is too Large
The image in the infobox at the stat of the article is currently too large (it takes uo about half the page). It would be good if someone could sort it out (I'm not that good at sorting out images). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spacevezon (talk • contribs) 06:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's fine using my browser, and the image size is set by the infobox. Is this also a problem with others e.g. Ben Macdui, Ben Wyvis, Matterhorn, K2? 07:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC) there is aproblem with this information

Outwith v. outside
ENGVAR: "Use an unambiguous word or phrase in preference to one that is ambiguous because of national differences." This guideline is perfectly clear. In a choice between "outwith" and "outside", "outside" is to be used because it is common to all varieties of English. It is not part of our remit, for example, to use local words lest they die out. And nor is it any argument to claim that it's clear from the context because (a) we can't possibly know this to be the case for all our readers, and (b) it is our job to make the meaning as clear as we can. ðarkun coll 11:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Mark J (talk) 11:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There is nothing ambiguous about "outwith", even without the context. I have yet to find someone who does not understand it. There are plenty who stop and think, but is that such a bad thing? Why does Wikipedia have to dumb down language? Finavon (talk) 21:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Outwith is a wonderful word. Its meaning is completely clear to readers even if they haven't seen it before; it has no obvious synonyms ("outside" is a poor substitute); it adds colour without making the text obscure, pompous, or quirky. It deserves to be used more widely, and where better than here. Mhkay (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If Randy in Boise is going to get interested in Scottish icons then he will undoubtedly enjoy the enriching taste of Scotch colloquial culture as well. Autodidactyl (talk) 08:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

 * I see someone has replaced "outwith" yet again. It is seems to be good enough for the OED and is not described as only Scottish.  I can't see why it should be removed from use on Wikipedia just because some people do not have sufficiently wide vocabulary to understand the word.  --jmb (talk) 15:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Although its meaning is pretty obvious due to the context, it's not a very common word, so really it would be better not to use it when there are perfectly good well-used words with the same meaning. Riedquat (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to voice an opinion either way but really, aren't there more pressing issues on Wikipedia than arguing about how widely known a word "outwith" is? There's a backlog at Pages needing translation into English if you've run out of stuff to do ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately none of those arguing for the use of the word has considered that readers of the site may include people who don't speak English as a first language but will read this edition of Wikipedia (rather than Simple English or their own language edition) for a British article as it is most likely to be complete and authoritative. Although the word itself is not pompous, unfortunately some of its supporters above appear to be, in terms of their vocabulary compared with others. It is possible to use plain language without "dumbing down" (quote Finavon). Is Wikipedia here to educate or is it just for the benefit of those who like nice but obscure words and already know about the subject anyway? Halsteadk (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Scottish flag
I oppose the recent deletion of the Scottish flag from the infobox. I have read MOS:FLAGS and find no clear cut guidance, but its main concern about the use of non-sovereign flags is that they may be insufficiently known. But I think that Scotland is well enough known to readers of the article. Any other comments? The issue should be resolved because The Scottish flag appears on other Scottish mountain pages. Viewfinder (talk) 11:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For one, there's a lack of direct relevance. Yes, of course Ben Nevis is in Scotland, but it's also in other areas that have flags - why does Scotland get this precedence? If anything, guidelines suggest that if any precedence should be given, then it should be to the sovereign state. The second viable objection is under the MOS:FLAGS guidance 'do not emphasize nationality without good reason', which links into my third objection, that the flag has no purpose - it is simply windowdressing. As MOS:FLAG again points out, whilst flags occasionally have their use, a lot of time they are deployed pointlessly on Wikipedia. I don't think it improves the article in any way at all. --Breadandcheese (talk) 18:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Ergo the flags should be removed from the infoboxes at Mount Everest, Aconcagua, Mount McKinley, K2, Kangchenjunga and Manchester United F.C.. A quick survey of other mountain suggests about half of them have flags in their infobox, half do not. Personally I like these flags and do not see anything nationalistic in them. Also, the Scottish flag is more informative than that the British; we all know Scotland is in the UK. Viewfinder (talk) 19:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, the way I read MOS:FLAGS, they suggest that having them piled on top of each other is discouraged. Fair enough, some pages do go overboard. On the other hand, a few can be quite useful - you can recognise a flag quicker than reading through a list of country names so I would suggest that as long as one doesn't go overboard, adding the flag icon is a very quick way of visually imparting information.
 * Secondly, Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man, the Channel Island and Northern Ireland have a status that is not sovereigin, but not that of a disputed territory either, comparing to, say, the Kurdish flag. So personally, I'd say keep it. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * PS This article made GA with the flag there, so it clearly wasn't an issue during the GA process... Akerbeltz (talk) 19:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

 * (Response primarily to Breadandcheese) Isn't the fact that the mountain is the *highest* in Scotland (and the UK) significant? It's not just *a* mountain in Scotland, but it's the most significant one? Given that one of Scotland's overriding characteristics is its mountainous landscape, I would say the flag is appropriate. I say put it back unless you're going to go and remove it from lots of other articles too. Halsteadk (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Highest mountain
The article has been changed to say Ben Nevis is the highest mountain in the UK (rather than in the British Isles). I dare say both these claims are true. Following a similar discussion about River Shannon the article there now claims that river is the longest in Ireland. There was a reflection that the Shannon might be the longest river on any European island. Finally, Mount Paget claims that this mountain is "the highest peak in the island of South Georgia, and any territory of the United Kingdom. However, a higher peak still, Mount Jackson, lies within the British Antarctic Territory". So, I rather prefer "British Isles" but if that causes difficulty, I am content with "UK". Thincat (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the term "British Isles" as it is imperial and outdated. Why do people need to measure what they have with a different country? As you rightly pointed on the river Shannon or for the that matter the rivers Tay or Clyde have no need.Bjmullan (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I only know the term British Isles as a geographical term but then, I didn't go to school here... is it possible that you're over-reacting? Akerbeltz (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Even as a geographical term it is outdated. Bjmullan (talk) 22:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

That's one site, which doesn't tell us THAT much, especially since Google Scholar 170,000 results for "British Isles" Akerbeltz (talk) 23:06, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Whether we like it or not, the term "British Isles" dates back to classical Greek times, see the map at British Isles. It therefore long pre-dates the United Kingdom. It neither makes nor implies any political claim. That it may offend some Irish nationalists does not make it incorrect, and no satisfactory alternative has been put forward. Viewfinder (talk) 04:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a very common misconception. The term "British Isles" only dates back to John Dee around 1577.  Check out the Etymology section in British Isles.  --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is two alternatives.

 * 1. Stop comparing a mountain in one country with mountains in another country this is also on a different island. How does it compare with Iceland which is also a European island?

 * 2. As given at British Isles...Although still used as a geographic term, the controversy means that alternative terms such as "Britain and Ireland" are increasingly preferred. Bjmullan (talk) 23:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have looked at Scafell Pike which mentions England, Snowdon which mentions Wales and GB and Carrauntoohil - no mention of BI. Also River Tay, River Severn, River Shannon, River Clyde, Marilyn (hill) and Loch Ness which make no reference to BI. What makes Ben Nevis so different? Bjmullan (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The term "British Isles" is geographically correct and this is a geographical article. If there is a clear majority in support of your position, then I will accept it, but given that there is a majority against your position, please stop your unilateral anti-consensus editing of the article. Viewfinder (talk) 19:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have listed a number of articles above regarding significant geographical features of these islands that do not use the term BI and I have also given an alternative. You need to tell me why Ben Nevis is different. BTW the term Great Britain is also geographically correct so there goes your argument. Bjmullan (talk) 19:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

The logical extension of your argument is that it is wrong to state that Mount Everest is the world's highest mountain because it is also Asia's highest mountain. Given the strength of your personal objection on the use of the term British Isles in Wikipedia, could I suggest that you pursue the whole British Isles issue by dispute resolution, perhaps by nominating British Isles for deletion or name change? Viewfinder (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Further to my last edit, the right place for you to be pursuing your case is at WP:BISLES. Not here. Viewfinder (talk) 20:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

And regarding some of your examples, the River Severn is not the longest river in the British Isles, and neither Scafell Pike nor Carrauntoohil are the highest mountain the British Isles. Viewfinder (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your other comment, there is no accepted collective geographical term that has been applied the islands of Great Britain, Ireland and Iceland. Viewfinder (talk) 21:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Much discussion has been had on this topic. There appears to be a small wiki-break in place at the moment, while editors reflect on the guidelines that have been proposed at the British Isles Terminology Task Force Specific Examples page.  While no guidelines have been agreed yet, I think all would agree that - in general - usage on geographic topics, like this, is fine and this will be reflected in a future MOS.  The change in this article doesn't appears to have any support to change it to something other than British Isles, so it should remain as it is.  --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"What makes Ben Nevis so different?" - It's the biggest (in the British Isles). Mister Flash (talk) 17:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

 * That is not in dispute - the issue is simply how to phrase it. Some us are comfortable with "British Isles", some of us might prefer "Britain and Ireland". Personally I am unconcerned either way and I wish the Task Force good luck in finding an agreed solution.  Ben   Mac  Dui  18:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Problem is, what do we mean by "Britain and Ireland"? Is the IoM included? Are the Orkneys, Shetland, Scilly Isles or the Channel Islands included? And what about Northern Ireland? With British Isles we know exactly what we mean (leaving aside the dispute about whether or not to include the Channel Islands - Wikipedia does include them). British Isles is clear - pity some people don't like its use, but that can't be helped. Mister Flash (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * With British Isles we know exactly what we mean maybe if you are from these isles but lets consider other people who can find the term confusing. Remember that many Americans would call the UK England, what do they make of the term? You also bring up another interesting point, namely that the term British Isles also includes the Channel Islands which is not part of the island group therefore it's use as a geographically correct term is incorrect and that the term is primarily a loaded political one.Bjmullan (talk) 21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Information added by Tommytomato
I think the recent edit by Tommytomato : Essex rock band Kings_Cross_(band) plan to play Britains highest fully electric gig on the peak of Ben Nevis on the 15th October 2010 is trivia and has no place in an article about the highest mountain in the UK. Bu what do others think? Bjmullan (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

If it happens it may be worth noting but at present in my view it is more like an advert than an encyclopedic entry. Ben  Mac  Dui  18:35, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Ben Nevis of Glenbogle
Should there be a reference to the Compton Mackenzie character?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monarch_of_the_Glen_%28novel%29, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenbogle

82.163.24.100 (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Multiple Coord Tags Per Article - Bad Idea?
The recent inclusion of a Coord tag for the similairly named Ben Nevis, Svalbard introduces an intersting problem. Several people, including myself, are building geo-located indexes of wikipedia. We currently have no way of knowing which co-ord tag to use. My scripts ended up using the wrong one, and placing Ben-Nevis into Svalbard area. Should we prefer a new page for the Ben Nevis in Svalbard, to keep 1 coord tag per page? Or should there be some tag on Coord to say "primary"? [[User
 * Willsmith|WillSmith (London)]] (talk) 17:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

James Robertson, First accent?
Thats not really true is it, his accent was first on record. 194.46.174.66 (talk) 08:08, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

What has accent have to do with it? Does it matter what accent he spoke with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.237.213.203 (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

 * If it wasn't Scottish, it doesn't count ;-) --92.21.252.70 (talk) 20:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

New height
The article now says "It [...] was remeasured in March 2016 and found to be slightly closer to 1,345 metres (4,413 ft)." The article released by OS is from March 2016, but I would be surprised if they had time to resurvey the peak, process the data, update the map and release this article in 18 days… As shown by one of the images on Flickr, the survey must have been done back in September 2015: https://www.flickr.com/photos/osmapping/25831849046/

I think this is the date that should be used in the article.

There is a problem with rounding in the conversion of heights. The precise value from the OS is 1344.527meters and that rounds up to the headline 1345 meters, but to give the measured height in ft you need to convert before rounding, and so reach the correct height in whole ft (4,411 ft).

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Ben Nevis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071103202517/http://www.takeupthechallenge.com/pages/page-nevis-history.htm to http://www.takeupthechallenge.com/pages/page-nevis-history.htm
 * Added tag to http://www.bottledbeer.co.uk/index.html?beerid=2403
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.texaswendish.org/Pages/BriefHistory.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:51, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

First (recorded) ascent date
I have made a change in the date based on reliable sources that the date earlier cited on the website for the first recorded ascent by James Robertson should be 19 August 1771 rather than 17 August 1771. According to the relevant entry transcribed from Robertson's journal reads August 19th. I ascended Ben Nevis which is reckoned the highest mountain in Britain. The plants on this mountain are similar to those on Ben Awin [apparently Ben Avon] and Carngarm [Cairngorm?], only here, at the West side near the foot I found the M... [illegible? or missing?] "The rock from top to bottom is a red Granite hardly distinguishable into strata. A third part of the hill towards the top is entirely naked, resembling a heap of stones thrown together confusedly. The summit far overtops all the surrounding hills, tho' those towards the South and South East are very high, and are formed either into Cones, or into a number of rugged peaks, or into long narrow ridges. The entry for the previous day talks about Fort William, ruling out the possibility that he climbed on 17th and made the diary entry on the 19th. I am sure someone can persuade the NLS to scan up the copies of the relevant journals (or pages) - https://manuscripts.nls.uk/repositories/2/resources/17908 Shyamal (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Volunteers
I have reduced the stuff about volunteer effort as it seemed to be using too many words to say a simple idea that volunteers help to maintain a footpath and who organises it... and with no references given. Victuallers (talk) 12:52, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

GA concerns
After reviewing the article, I am concerned that the article might not meet the good article criteria anymore. I have outlined my concerns below:
 * There are multiple uncited sentences and paragraphs throughout the article.
 * The climate table seems to cite sources from the early 1900s. Are there any current sources that can be used?

Is anyone willing to address the above concerns? If not, I may nominate this article for WP:GAR. Z1720 (talk) 02:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 * In principle I'd like to help improve this article about my old friend, although (i) I have few hard copy references to use and (ii) I am still stuck here after more than six months! I will try to find the time over the next few days. Ben   Mac  Dui  10:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ben Nevis


text:
Talk:Epigenesis

This is the m-w.com dictionary definition. That's a nono, isn't it? 65.25.250.220 06:56, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Change this article's title
See Talk:Epigenesis_(biology). --Southsea6 (talk) 14:05, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Epigenesis


text:
The Cay

The Cay is a teen novel written by Theodore Taylor. It was published in 1969.

Taylor took only three weeks to write The Cay, having contemplated the story for over a decade after reading about an 11-year-old who was aboard the Dutch ship Hato when it was torpedoed in 1942, and who was last seen by other stranded survivors as he drifted away on a life raft. The novel was published in 1969 and dedicated to Martin Luther King Jr.

Plot
During the outbreak of World War II, 11-year-old Phillip Enright and his mother decide to leave Curaçao for Virginia, aboard the S.S. Hato. This decision is driven by Phillip's mother's concern over the increasing danger posed by German submarines surrounding Curaçao. Tragically, the ship is torpedoed, resulting in Phillip becoming stranded at sea with an elderly black man named Timothy and a cat named Stew Cat.

While adrift, Phillip loses his sight, a condition Timothy attributes to Phillip staring at the sun too long. Eventually, they find a small island in a region known as Devil's Mouth. On this cay, which measured only one mile in length and half a mile in width, they build a hut and mark the passage of days by placing pebbles in a can. With limited supplies, they survive for two months by fishing and collecting rainwater. Despite initial communication barriers due to their different backgrounds, Phillip and Timothy develop a deep friendship. Timothy cares for Phillip and teaches him essential survival skills, enabling Phillip to become self-sufficient.

Although airplanes fly over the cay, they fail to spot Phillip and Timothy, prolonging their ordeal. A devastating hurricane later strikes, destroying their shelter. Timothy protects Phillip by tying them both to a palm tree, but he succumbs to exposure. Phillip, heartbroken, buries Timothy and is eventually rescued by a navy vessel. After their rescue, Phillip undergoes multiple surgeries to restore his sight, which had been lost due to nerve damage caused by a head injury from falling timber during the shipwreck. Inspired by his experience, Phillip aspires to become a sea explorer and hopes to one day locate the cay where he and Timothy had been stranded, confident he could identify it even with his eyes closed..

Characters
Phillip Enright: An 11-year-old boy who becomes marooned on a cay with Timothy. Initially prejudiced against Timothy due to his race, Phillip grows to appreciate and rely on him, forming a strong bond.

Timothy: A West Indian native from Charlotte Amalie in Saint Thomas. He is stranded with Phillip and uses his extensive survival knowledge to care for and teach Phillip to be self-sufficient. Despite his superstitions, Timothy proves to be wise and patient.

Stew Cat: The cat who accompanies Phillip and Timothy as a fellow castaway, initially belonging to a cook on the S.S. Hato.

Grace Enright: Phillip's mother, accompanies Phillip on the S.S. Hato headed for Virginia, gets separated from him when it sinks. She Is visibly uncomfortable in Curaçao due to her racial prejudices against the local population

Phillip Enright Sr.: Phillip's father, who relocates the family to the Dutch West Indies for government-related work. He works in an oil refinery that increases the production of aviation gas.

Henrik van Boven: Phillip's Dutch friend in Curaçao, who is puzzled by Grace's racial prejudices.

Racism
In "The Cay," the theme of racial prejudice is explored through the character of Grace, Phillip's mother. She expresses a longing for her home in Virginia and discomfort living in Curaçao due to her prejudices against the predominantly Black bay workers in the area Grace's discomfort and biases lead her to instruct her son, Phillip, and his friend Henrik to avoid the bay area, a directive that Henrik finds puzzling and unusual. Once Phillip is a castaway, he begins to adopt his mother's prejudice tendencies and direct it towards Timothy.

As the story progresses, Phillip, influenced by his mother's attitudes, begins to adopt similar prejudices, initially directed towards Timothy, the elderly Black man with whom Phillip becomes stranded. However, Phillip's views begin to change as he spends more time with Timothy and recognizes their shared humanity. A pivotal moment occurs when Timothy reveals his origins from Charlotte Amalie on St. Thomas. Phillip, surprised, responds by noting that this makes Timothy an American, referencing the American purchase of the Virgin Islands from Denmark as a result of the Treaty of the Danish West Indies.. Timothy's casual indifference to this fact contrasts with Phillip's initial curiosity about Timothy's background, highlighting Phillip's growing awareness and questioning of his preconceived notions.

Phillip's transformation accelerates when he becomes blind and must rely on Timothy for survival. This dependency shifts the dynamic between them. Timothy's extensive knowledge of the Caribbean islands and survival skills, including building shelter, gathering food, and sourcing water, astonishes Phillip. Through Timothy's patient teaching, Phillip learns to be self-sufficient, fostering mutual respect and a deep bond between them. The culmination of this bond is evident in Phillip's profound grief at Timothy's death. After a hurricane devastates their shelter, Timothy succumbs to exposure, and Phillip, devastated, digs a grave for him and mourns deeply. This emotional response signifies the profound impact Timothy had on Phillip's life and perspective.

Upon returning to Curaçao, Phillip spends significant time with the workers at St. Anna Bay, many of whom knew and remembered Timothy fondly. Phillip's interactions with these individuals further underscore his transformation. He no longer harbors the prejudices he once did and feels a deep connection to the community that Timothy was a part of. This evolution marks a complete departure from his earlier, biased views, demonstrating the powerful impact of his experiences on the cay and his relationship with Timothy.

Controversy
The Cay was both widely acclaimed and criticized for its impact on promoting racial harmony, and it received the Jane Addams Children's Book Award in 1970. In 1974, when NBC-TV adapted the story for a television drama, the Council on Interracial Books for Children held a press conference urging viewers to call their local stations if they felt the story contained an insidiously "racist" message. During this conference, the current chair of the Addams Award Committee, who was not in that role when the award was given, stated that she believed it was a mistake to have named The Cay an award winner due to its perceived racist theme. In response, the author, Theodore Taylor, who viewed the work as a subtle plea for better race relations and understanding,[10] returned the award "by choice, not in anger, but with troubling questions." Taylor later reported that the award had been rescinded. Although The Cay remains listed as an Addams Award winner, Taylor's claim of rescission is widely accepted and has become a part of the discussion surrounding the book, which is required reading in many schools in the United States and internationally.

Censorship and banning incidents
In 2020, the Burbank Unified School District banned the book from the curriculum on the back of complaints from four parents who allege the material in the book could lead to potential harm to the district's Black students.

Adaptation and sequel

 * The book was adapted into a TV film in 1974 with Alfred Lutter as Phillip, James Earl Jones as Timothy, and Gretchen Corbett as Phillip's mother. Phillip's father was not in the movie.
 * In 1993, Taylor published Timothy of the Cay, a book which tells both of Phillip's life after and of Timothy's life before the ordeal.

title: The Cay


text:
Isdud

Isdud (إسدود) was a Palestinian town, on the site today known as Tel Ashdod. In the 1940s the village had thousands of Arab and Jewish inhabitants, but was largely depopulated in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. By 1992, only ruins remained.

Isdud may or may not form part of a continuity with the town of "Azdud", described up until the 10th century as a postal stop between al-Ramla and Gaza, and equally as a continuation of the ancient city of Ashdod. The village is documented as being well established from at least the time of Mamluk-rule in Palestine in the mid-15th century. During the Ottoman period, the village consisted of 75 households. By 1922, Isdud had a population of 2,566 inhabitants, 2,555 Muslims and 11 Christians; and by 1945, a population of 4,620 Arabs and 290 Jews. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian Arab inhabitants fled or were expelled. By 1992, only ruins were described as remaining.

Today, the village's ruins form part of the Tel Ashdod archaeological site, which lies within the jurisdiction of the Be'er Tuvia Regional Council. The central village mosque stands at the top of the site, as does the khan and the tomb of Sheikh Abu Qubal.

Names
The name "Isdud" is a variant on the name of ancient Ashdod, which is first attested in the form of 11th century BCE Egyptian lists, where is it transcribed as "ísdd", which scholars have determined is derived from the Late Bronze Age Canaanite "'aṯdādu".

In the Islamic period, the geographer Ibn Khordadbeh referred to the city as "Azdud", echoing the pre-Hellenistic name. By the 16th century, it had lost its initial vowel to become just "Sdud", before regaining it by the 19th century as "Esdud" – a form of the settlement's name that changed little through to the 20th century "Isdud".

Ancient and classical period
The ancient city of Ashdod rose to prominence in the 12th century BCE, when the Philistines ruled the city as Asdadu and the city was a member of their pentapolis, a group of five key cities. alongside Ascalon, Gaza, Ekron and Gath.

Asdûdu later led the revolt of Philistines, Judeans, Edomites, and Moabites against Assyria, before one of Sargon II's generals destroyed the city and exiled its residents, including some Israelites who were subsequently settled in Media and Elam. In 605 BCE, Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar conquered it, and in 539 BCE it was rebuilt by the Persians, before being conquered in 332 BCE by Alexander the Great.

During the Hellenistic period, the city was known as Αzotus ( and prospered until the Maccabean Revolt, during which Judas Maccabeus took the city and "laid it waste". It was then ruled by Alexander Jannaeus of the Hasmoneans,  before being made independent again by the Roman general Pompey.  In 55 BCE, the Roman general Gabinius also helped to rebuild Azotus.

During the Byzantine period, Azotus was overshadowed by Azotus Paralios, a nearby port and the inland city's maritime counterpart. The 6th-century Madaba Map shows both under their respective names.

Medieval period
The geographer Ibn Khordadbeh (c. 820 – 912) referred to the inland city as "Azdud" and described it as a postal station between al-Ramla and Gaza.

12-century Crusader church endowments and land deeds mention settlement in Azotum/Azdūd. During the Mamluk period, Isdud was a key village along the Cairo—Damascus road, which served as a center for rural religious and economic life.

Ottoman period
In the Ottoman period, the location of the village of Isdud on the ancient "Via Maris" route preserved the village's importance. In the first Ottoman tax register of 1526/7, the village had a population of 40 Muslim households and four bachelors, and it belonged to the nahiya of Gaza (Gaza Sanjak). By 1596 CE, the population of Ashdod (named Sdud) reached 75 households, about 413 persons, all Muslims. The villagers paid a fixed tax rate of 33,3% on wheat, barley, sesame and fruit crops, as well as goats and beehives; a total of 14,000 Akçe.

Marom and Taxel have shown that during the seventeenth to eighteenth centuries, nomadic economic and security pressures led to settlement abandonment around Majdal 'Asqalān, and the southern coastal plain in general. The population of abandoned villages moved to surviving settlements, while the lands of abandoned settlements continued to be cultivated by neighboring villages. Thus, Isdud absorbed the lands of Kharijat Isdud, an unidentified subsidiary settlement near Isdud mentioned in the Ottoman tax registers.

In 1838, Esdud was noted as a Muslim village in the Gaza district.

In the late nineteenth century, Isdud was described as a village spread across the eastern slope of a low hill, covered with gardens. A ruined khan stood southwest of the village. Its houses were one-storey high with walls and enclosures built of adobe brick. There were two main sources of water: a pond and a masonry well. Both were surrounded by groves of date-palm and fig-trees.

British Mandate

In the 1922 census of Palestine, conducted by the British Mandate authorities, Isdud had a population of 2,566 inhabitants; 2,555 Muslims and 11 Christians, where the Christians were all Catholics.

The population increased in the 1931 census to 3,240; 3,238 Muslims and 2 Christians, in a total of 764 houses.

During the Mandatory period, Isdud had two elementary schools; one for boys which was opened in 1922, and one for girls which started in 1942. By the mid-1940s the boy-school had 371 students, while the girl-school had 74.

The official Village Statistics, 1945 for "Isdûd" gave a population of 4,620 Arabs and 290 Jews in a total land area of 47,871 dunams [4787.1 ha]. Of this, 3,277 dunams were used citrus and bananas, 8,327 for plantations and irrigable land, 23,762 for cereals, while 131 dunams were built-on land.

1948 Arab–Israeli War

The village of Isdud was occupied by the Egyptian army on May 29, 1948, and became the Egyptians' northernmost position during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. While the Israelis failed to capture territory, and suffered heavy casualties, Egypt changed its strategy from offensive to defensive, thus halting their advance northwards. Egyptian and Israeli forces clashed in the surrounding area, with the Egyptians being unable to hold the Ad Halom bridge over the Lachish River. Israeli forces surrounded the town during Operation Pleshet, and shelled and bombed it from the air. For three nights from 18 October the Israeli Air Force bombed Isdud and several other locations. Fearing encirclement, Egyptian forces retreated on October 28, 1948, and the majority of the residents fled. The 300 townspeople who remained were driven southwards by the Israel Defense Forces. The village was part of territory that was granted to Israel in the 1949 Armistice Agreements following the end of the war.

Israel
In 1950, two moshavim, Sde Uziyahu and Shtulim, were established to the east of Isdud, on village land. Bnei Darom (in 1949) and Gan HaDarom (in 1953) were established north of Isdud, on village land. The city of Ashdod was founded in 1956 4 km north of Isdud.

In 1992, Isdud was reported as destroyed, with only a few ruined buildings including the village mosque remaining.

title: Isdud


text:
Talk:MiniDVD

cDVD
Isn't this format called cDVD and not mini-DVD? 132.205.15.34 01:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It appears that it was launched with the name cDVD but within the past 18 years the use of the term 'mini-DVD' has superseded the use of the original. Nikpourkeon (talk) 21:01, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

--

cDVD is just DVD mpeg2 content recorded onto a normal CD-ROM.

mini-DVD are 8cm DVD discs.

80mm DVD compatibility
"It was developed for use in camcorders, but unlike its full-sized 120 mm counterpart, it cannot be played back in most DVD players."

Isn't the principle benefit of these DVD camcorders that they are compatible with ordinary DVD players?

Every player I've encountered with a tray has had the indentations which allow an 80mm disc to sit perfectly, and those handful of players that use a hub/spindle mechanism (like the new PStwo) require no special accommodation--the only players that would have issues are those featuring slot-loading drives, most of which are only compatible with the full-sized 120mm discs.

Those based on DVD-RAM would not have tremendous compatibility, but that is because they are DVD-RAM, and so even 120mm discs would be similarly-incompatible. Those discs based on single-layered 80mm DVD-R discs should be compatible with the vast majority of players. The dual-layered versions now available would have less compatibility, but again it would be to the same extent that the full-sized 120mm are compatible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.162.253 (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Article split
I've split this article. It had a "split?" notice a while ago which Mikus removed saying "IMHO, no need to split this article". This was somewhat unilateral, and I'd normally consider that bad form. However, in his/her defence it had been there a long time and no-one had done anything about it.

Back to the point- IMHO the article clearly *did* warrant splitting. Articles are arranged by subject, not name- i.e. we have separate articles for clearly different subjects that happen to have the same name (and normally have a single article for a single subject with multiple names).

This article was clearly trying to fit at least two (if not three or four) technologically distinct meanings into a single page, complete with pseudo-disambiguation. Seems a pretty clear-cut case to me. Ubcule (talk) 16:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I suggest merging this article into main DVD article. After all, MiniDVD is nothing but a 8cm sized DVD, it has nothing special about it but size. Mikus (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey all…
The page looks a bit bare so I was wondering if we could build it up a bit with miniDVD history. Maybe the mini movies? 2607:FEA8:BB60:E300:79A6:D125:6394:9A26 (talk) 10:32, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Feel free to expand it. If you want some information on getting started, take a look at Help:Introduction and Contributing to Wikipedia. The main thing to keep in mind is that information should be attributed to Reliable sources. I don't think a full list of all movies would be a good idea though (since I imagine there are a lot of them), for the same reason a full list of movies released on full-sized DVDs would be a bad idea. --Pokechu22 (talk) 18:46, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Purpose of this format?
Was there an actual reason movies were made available on this format? I guess for portable media players like the PSP (albeit those used the UMD format). MightyArms (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:MiniDVD


text:
Talk:John Sutton, 1st Baron Dudley

Untitled
Still fairly confusing and with inconsistencies. Charles Matthews 07:07, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

reply to above: I am not sure how to improve the formatting of this item, but have tidied it up as best I am able, at this time, the content is by mine own hand, and draws on several historical sources, that may be commonly available. I am seeking to develop a better understanding of the history of the lords Sutton of Dudley, and appreciate any improvements Wikipedians have to offer on this subject.

Faedra 10:49, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've moved this article here (from "5th Baron Dudley") after referring to the article, Baron Dudley, which says that the 5th Baron Dudley was called "Edward". The dates for the man in this article are those of the 1st Baron. However, I am puzzled as to who inherited the title, as there don't seem to be any children or grandchildren with the right name. Deb 17:50, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Succession etc
I have removed a reference to Dudley as an MP, because the reference was to him as a baron by writ, not as a member of the house of commons. This was an obsolete method of creating peers, by summoning an individual to attned the House of Lords. It was held to create a hereditary peerage, descending through the female line to the heir general, unlike the more usual creation by patent where it descends to the named class of heir, usually the heir male (unless there is a specila remainder). This carried the peerage into the Ward family then Smith and now Wallace. There is the further complication that the family in practice used the surname Dudley rather than Sutton. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Earl of Arundel
There may be differing opinions on how to number the FitzAlan Earls of Arundel, as indicated in the article about them.

But the Earl of Arundel referred to in this article is found at John FitzAlan, 13th Earl of Arundel which should be evident by their shared content. AvorNorn (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Constable of the Tower
I don't remember when and where I read this, but it appears Dudley was constable of the Tower of London on 21 May 1471. Since Henry VI very likely died that night, can we assume that Dudley was involved in his murder ? --Edouard2 (talk) 17:00, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:John Sutton, 1st Baron Dudley


text:
Fort Mackinac

Fort Mackinac is a former British and American military outpost garrisoned from the late 18th century to the late 19th century in the city of Mackinac Island, Michigan, on Mackinac Island. The British built the fort during the American Revolutionary War to control the strategic Straits of Mackinac between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron, and by extension the fur trade on the Great Lakes. The British did not relinquish the fort until thirteen years after the end of the American Revolutionary War. Fort Mackinac later became the scene of two strategic battles for control of the Great Lakes during the War of 1812. During most of the 19th century, it served as an outpost of the United States Army. Closed in 1895, the fort has been adapted as a museum on the grounds of Mackinac Island State Park.

American Revolutionary War
Before 1763, the French used Fort Michilimackinac on the mainland south shore of the Straits of Mackinac to control the area. After the Treaty of Paris (1763), the British occupied the French fort but considered the wooden structure too difficult to defend. In 1780/1781, its lieutenant governor Patrick Sinclair constructed a new limestone fort on the 150 ft limestone bluffs of Mackinac Island above the Straits of Mackinac. The British held the outpost throughout the American Revolutionary War. Captain Daniel Robertson commanded the garrison on Mackinac Island from 1782 to his replacement in 1784 by Lieutenant George Clowes. Despite the terms of the Treaty of Paris (1783), the British did not officially relinquish the fort to the United States until 1796.

War of 1812
In June 1812, British Major-General Isaac Brock heard that America had declared war and sent a canoe party 1,200 mi to Fort St. Joseph, Ontario to confirm that a state of war existed. This party returned with an order to attack Fort Mackinac, then known as Fort Michilimackinac.

A minimal United States garrison of approximately sixty men under the command of Lieutenant Porter Hanks then manned Fort Mackinac. Although a diligent officer, Hanks had received no communication from his superiors for months. On the morning of July 17, 1812, a combined British and Native American force of seventy war canoes and ten bateaux under the command of British Captain Charles Roberts attacked Fort Mackinac. Roberts came from Fort St. Joseph and landed on the north end of Mackinac Island, 2 mi from the fort. The British removed the village inhabitants from their homes and trained their two 6-pounder iron cannons at the fort. The Americans, under Lieutenant Hanks, were taken by surprise and Hanks perceived his garrison was badly outnumbered. The officers and men under Roberts numbered about two hundred (including 180 Canadians); a few hundred Native Americans of various tribes supported him.

Fearing that the Native Americans on the British side would massacre his men and allies, Lieutenant Hanks accepted the British offer of surrender without a fight. The British paroled the American forces, essentially allowing them to go free after swearing to not take up arms in the war again. They made the island inhabitants swear an oath of allegiance as subjects of the United Kingdom.

Shortly after the British captured the fort, two American vessels arrived from Fort Dearborn (Chicago), unaware of the start of the War of 1812, or the fort's capture by British forces. The British raised the American flag and when the vessels tied up at the pier, the British captured the two sloops as prizes of war. The ships were Erie (Captain Norton) and Friends Good Will (Captain Lee), the latter being taken by the British into service as HMS Little Belt (1812). The schooners Mary and Salina, anchored at port, were sent by the British to Detroit as cartels carrying the prisoners they had taken.

After capturing the island, the British under the command of Colonel Robert McDouall of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment built Fort George, a stockade and blockhouse on the highest point of the island, to prevent the Americans from re-capturing the island using the same strategy. Lieutenant Hanks made his way to Detroit and the American military post there. Upon his arrival, superiors charged him with cowardice in the surrender of Fort Mackinac. Before the court martial of Lieutenant Hanks could begin, British forces attacked Fort Detroit. A British cannonball ripped through the room where Hanks was standing, cutting him in half and killing the officer next to him as well.

United States Army Colonel George Croghan and his superior General William Henry Harrison designed a campaign to take control of the Great Lakes and sever the fur trade alliance between the British and the tribes of the region; as part of this campaign, the Americans attempted to retake Mackinac Island in July 1814. The two-pronged campaign also included an assault on Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, located on the upper Mississippi River.

Battle of Mackinac Island (1814)
On July 26, 1814, a squadron of five United States ships arrived off Mackinac Island, carrying a landing force of 700 soldiers under the command of Colonel Croghan. This landing began the Battle of Mackinac Island. To his dismay, Colonel Croghan discovered that the new British blockhouse stood too high for the naval guns to reach, forcing an unprotected assault on the wall of Fort George. The Americans shelled Fort George for two days with most shells falling harmlessly in vegetable gardens around the fort.

A dense fog forced the Americans back from Mackinac Island for a week. Major Andrew Holmes led the American forces in returning; they landed at the north end of the island near the location of the British assault in 1812. The Americans worked their way to the fort through dense woods, which Native American allies of the British protected, finally emerging into a clearing below Fort George.

Colonel McDouall had placed a small force bearing muskets, rifles, and two field guns behind low breastworks at the opposite end of the clearing. When the Americans emerged from the woods into the clearing, the British guns targeted them easily. British forces killed 13 Americans, including Major Holmes and two other officers, and wounded 51 others. The heavy losses compelled Colonel Croghan to order his men to retreat back through the woods to the beach. The Americans rowed back to their ships and retreated.

The American defeat in the Battle of Mackinac Island left the island and its forts in the hands of the British through the end of the War of 1812. Following the Treaty of Ghent, American forces reoccupied Fort Mackinac in July 1815. They renamed Fort George as Fort Holmes, in honor of Major Holmes, killed in the 1814 attack. After the War of 1812 and settlement of the northern border and tensions with Britain, Fort Mackinac gradually declined in military significance.

Later years
No longer needed as a front line border defense against the British in Canada, the fort was used as a strategic troop reserve. The Army essentially could deploy troops to Fort Mackinac until a need arose to transfer them to other locations of military importance. The Army nearly abandoned Fort Mackinac between such uses. It was also used as a fur trading post, as Mackinac Island was an important fur post. From 1816 to 1821 the post was commanded by Benjamin Kendrick Pierce, the older brother of President Franklin Pierce. He married the daughter of Magdelaine Laframboise, a prominent fur trader of Ojibwe and French descent.

On June 6, 1822, a fur trader named Alexis St. Martin waited to trade in his furs when a gun accidentally discharged just inches from him, blowing a hole in his abdomen. The post surgeon, Doctor William Beaumont, attended to him. Dr. Beaumont cared for the presumably doomed St. Martin the best he could. To his surprise, the man appeared to make a recovery. Beaumont took St. Martin into his home, caring for him for several years. St. Martin healed although his stomach had a hole. Beaumont seized the opportunity and began observing and conducting experiments on the man. Through these experiments, Beaumont described the process of digestion in detail, unlocking its mysteries. Beaumont wrote a book about his experiments and later became known as "The Father of Gastric Physiology."

The fort developed as an important staging area for US exploration of the northern Michigan Territory, including the expedition in 1820 under the command of Lewis Cass to explore the headwaters of the Mississippi River. Henry Rowe Schoolcraft held the post of United States Indian agent at Fort Mackinac for a time in the 1830s. He did extensive study of the Native American languages and culture of the region, aided by his marriage to Jane Johnston, the Ojibwe-British daughter of John Johnston, a wealthy British fur trader at Sault Ste. Marie. Both her parents' families were prominent among the elite of the region.

During the Mexican–American War and for long periods during the Civil War, the Army left the care and upkeep of Fort Mackinac to an ordnance sergeant. Despite these periods of relative inactivity, the fort played a small role in the Civil War, briefly used as a prison for three Confederate political prisoners. Brought to Mackinac Island and the fort during the summer months, these three men enjoyed relative freedom, guarded only by a volunteer militia. When faced with the prospect of enduring a long, harsh winter on the island, two of the prisoners signed loyalty oaths and obtained release. The third Confederate refused, and the Army ultimately transferred him to another post.

Seth Eastman, an officer and artist in the United States Army, in 1872 made an oil painting of Fort Mackinac, as a commission by the US Congress of paintings of military forts. It is now part of the collection of the United States Senate. His more important work was to illustrate Henry Rowe Schoolcraft's six-volume history of the American Indians, commissioned by Congress in the 1850s.

Mackinac National Park
From 1875 to 1895, Mackinac National Park, the second national park in the United States after Yellowstone National Park, included Fort Mackinac and much of Mackinac Island. During the national park years, the troops stationed at Mackinac acted as park rangers. The Army tasked these men with maintaining the park, so they spent much time cutting new roads and footpaths through the park.

To improve conditions and boost morale, the Army constructed a bathhouse at the fort (in which every man at the fort was required to bathe at least once a week), a post toilet (complete with flush toilets), and a post canteen (where the men could read current magazines, play pool, and buy beer and wine). They wanted Fort Mackinac to be a "desirable station." Soldiers also had regular military duties, drilling on the parade ground and taking target practice at least once a week on either a 600- or 1000-yard rifle range. The skills learned at the fort later proved important for many troops who were posted at other locations in the still-dangerous American West.

State administration
In 1895, Congress closed Fort Mackinac and Mackinac National Park. It transferred the fort and park to the State of Michigan, which created Mackinac Island State Park, the first state park in Michigan. The semi-autonomous Mackinac Island State Park Commission in 1895 began governing Fort Mackinac and the other surrounding historic sites on or near Mackinac Island: Colonial Michilimackinac, Historic Mill Creek, the Old Mackinac Point Lighthouse, and Mackinac Island State Park. The Governor of Michigan appoints members of the commission, who meet many times during the course of a year to govern Mackinac State Historic Parks. The commission and historic parks preserve, protect, and present the rich and natural history of Mackinac Island and the Straits area.

In the 1950s, Mackinac Island State Park Commission developed a new way of financing its park, based on the system that financed the Mackinac Bridge. Michigan financed construction of Mackinac Bridge through revenue bonds repaid from the cash flow of toll fees from the bridge after it opened in 1957. Mackinac Island State Park Commission modified this idea for park restoration purposes, with Fort Mackinac admission fees serving as the cash flow. More than three-fourths of budget of Mackinac Island State Park Commission now comes from admission fees and other self-generated cash flow. Most United States parks-and-recreation agencies instead depend upon public subsidies. Mackinac Island State Park Commission operates one of the largest parks in United States that generates a significant majority of its own operating budget.

The Fort today
The current museum at the park includes 14 historic buildings. Today, Fort Mackinac is a popular heritage tourist destination. Situated on 150-foot bluffs above the Straits of Mackinac, it is one of the few surviving American Revolutionary War forts and one of the most complete early forts in the country. In 2015, Fort Mackinac celebrated 235 years standing guard over Mackinac Island.

During the main tourism summer months (June through August), visitors ascend into a bustle of activity within the old British-built stone walls of old Fort Mackinac after entering its weathered gates. Costumed interpreters greet visitors, portray life in the 1880s, answer questions, pose for pictures, and lead tours throughout the day. Some of the "soldiers" carry original 45-70 Springfield Model 1873, the type used at the fort during the 1880s. Others play music or greet and mingle with the crowds of visitors.

The 1841 model six-pounder, positioned just as it would have been if used during the attack of Fort Mackinac in the War of 1812, is fired many times daily. It is the second-largest cannon regularly demonstrated on the Great Lakes. Activities also include rifle firings, court martial re-enactments, and dances of the type done during the early days of Fort Mackinac with live musicians.

Extant buildings
There are 14 original buildings as part of the fort museum:
 * 1. Commissary Building: Once used for food storage; today houses a video program.
 * 2. Post Headquarters: Used for the paymaster and offices.
 * 3. Quartermaster's Storehouse: Held any and all equipment needed by the soldiers during the Fort's history.
 * 4. Post Bathhouse: The newest building, built in 1885, housing 6 baths for the soldiers' comfort.
 * 5. Soldiers Barracks: Used to house the more than 100 soldiers stationed there, but today houses a museum and the gift shop called the Sutler's Store.
 * 6. Post Schoolhouse: Provided education for soldiers
 * 7. Hill Quarters: Many lieutenants lived in these officers' quarters. Rank was rewarded.
 * 8. Post Hospital: Where the post doctor/surgeon treated patients until a new hospital was built in 1860.
 * 9. Officer's Stone Quarters: Michigan's oldest building (1780), used to house officers. Today holds the Kids Quarters and the Tea Room.
 * 10. Wood Quarters: Used for various purposes over the life of the building, including officers' quarters and a post canteen that served Schlitz beer, but no whiskey.
 * 11. Post Guardhouse: Prisoners were held on this site for over a century.
 * 12-14: North, East, and West Blockhouses: Stone towers built by the first Americans garrisoning Fort Mackinac.

title: Fort Mackinac