text:
User talk:Bluefoxicy

Hi.
Kay. :)

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I find useful

 * Policy Library
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
 * Conflict resolution
 * Brilliant prose
 * Neutral point of view
 * Pages needing attention
 * Peer review
 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
 * Village pump
 * Boilerplate text

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~.

Cheers, Sam [Spade] 05:43, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Message For You!
True to my word, I am leaving you a message! I hope we can talk again sometime. :-D Mike H 02:21, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

 * My, oh, my, you just have a penchant for discussion, don't you? Mike H 15:12, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

PaX on Debian
Zocky tells me you've got some question about $topic... mail me if you like. I know some people who know some people. :) --Shallot 06:48, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I got anything. My nickname on freenode is "Joy", you can try that too... --Shallot 14:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A tip
Blue - FYI, you should sign all your comments on Wikipedia with ~. On the featured article candidate nomination for PaX, there's a lot of unisigned comments which I assume are yours, but without going through the page history it's impossible to tell. It makes it a lot easier for the rest of us to know who's saying what. →Raul654 20:18, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

I'll do so. :) --Bluefox Phoenix Lucid 16:41, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

re comment on PAX nomination
Blue, I'll be glad to help with the article with a view toward improving it for featured status. Modulo time available, and with only a general knowledge of the project. I'm generally familiar with OS security dodges (or at least with quite a few) and may be able to provide some general perspective. I can certainly make suggestions as to article structure, narrative arc, and phrasing generally. If you're willing to put up w/ such limited help, let's have at it. ww 16:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re your material on comparison of PaX with ES. The material is good. See my response in the featured article candidate page. Thanks for your work. - Taxman 22:33, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Template new spoilers
I have moved your "Template new spoilers" to User:Bluefoxicy/Template new spoilers, as you accidently created it in the main namespace, not the template namespace (you forgot the ":" in "Template new spoilers"). You can play around with it now already - just put on a page. However I'd suggest you discuss your proposal on Template talk:Spoiler before you actually use it in an article, or move it to the Template-namespace. andy 07:44, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Barnstar
For the work you did bringing PaX to featured article status, I award you this barnstar. Thanks, and keep up the good work. →Raul654 06:37, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

Hey hey, I had lotsa help, as noted on Talk:PaX, but thanks ^_^ --John Moser 22:45, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Peer review?
Hi, do you still want PaX listed on peer review now that it is a Featured Article? Peer review needs some cleaning up to make way for comments for other articles. If you don't specifically want the listing to stay there, can you remove it please? Thanks, and good work on the article. - Taxman 21:56, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Edit attribution
Hi. Edits from 68.33.185.81 have now been reattributed to you. Regards  — Kate Turner | Talk 07:56, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

Word of advice
Writing about someone with world-record long fingernails is fine. Making that article into a barb at other users isn't so hot. Might I ask you to please re-edit your contribution before it's removed again as nonsense? Thanks much. :) - Lucky 6.9 08:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Request for edit summary
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== Pronunciation of Debian =he was so fat )

Stirling Engine Animation
Thanks for the help on how to get the animation smooth. Frames 1 and 3 turned out fuzzy, I assume because I had to scale them down. At least it doesn't jump around. I also slowed it down. You can find it here. --SuperCow 22:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

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Ingo Molnár
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Michael Meeks
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PaX is listed at FAR
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Speedy deletion of Dick Wertheim
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AfD nomination of Dick Wertheim
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Klingon Wikibook
Bluefoxicy: I've been adding stuff to the Klingon Wikibook, and noticed that you were one of the most frequent contributors (a few years ago, anyway). So come on back! (please). --Bozwaldo (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Learn to Play Go
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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. -- mitchsurp -- (talk) 17:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Ctrl+Alt+Del/Penny Arcade
Since I couldn't fit a proper explanation in the edit summary, I thought I'd elaborate here. With regard to your recent additions to Kinect, there are a couple of things to note, so I will go through it point by point.

"Kinect has taken frequent ribbing by various gaming news sites such as Penny Arcade and Ctrl-Alt-Del." This first part has a few problems. First, it is written in informal language (ribbing isn't exactly an encyclopædic term); this is a minor gripe though.

Second, neither site is a gaming news site; they are webcomics. That is not to say that they are non-notable (they are in this case but I'll come on to that later) but it is inaccurate and misleading to label them as such.

Finally, the source you provided (a CAD strip) isn't an appropriate source to show anything other than the character (Ethan) in the comic "thinks" something. From a personal perspective, it is fair to deduce that Tim Buckley feels the same way about Kinect, but to include such a conclusion in a Wikipedia article would constitute original research/synthesis.

''"Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection, "I'd say that enthusiast gamers are singularly bad at predicting broad market success. If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?""'' This part isn't too bad, but is out of context. The quote provided doesn't even mention Kinect and is more about the enthusiast press (and gamers) in general. It may be notable if provided in context, but not as-is.

Now to the issue of notability. Generally a site is only considered notable for a reception section if: As such, the PA quote could be included as long as it was presented properly (just calling it Penny Arcade would be fine rather than labelling it as a news site, which is false) and is presented in a form that is relevant to Kinect specifically rather than simply to game reviews/reviewers. Something as simple as the CAD addition would probably not even qualify as noteworthy from one of the "big" sites (Game Informer, IGN etc) without some elaboration.
 * 1) they are one of a few "major" sources (CAD and PA are not… heck even Joystiq and Kotaku aren't)
 * 2) they provide some specific insight/commentary that is lacking from other reviews AND are at least considered a reliable, noteworthy source (Joystiq, Kotaku and PA would fit into this category, CAD would be dubious).

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

 Alphathon ™ ( talk ) 17:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I am certainly not saying that anything from CAD or PA are not usable within the article, only that they aren't in the way you added them. This is a fairly difficult issue to explain so bear with me.

 * I am not saying that their opinions are invalid because they are primarily web-comics (PA has certainly grown into a more general gaming site, but as I see it they are still a comic first and foremost). What I am saying there is that it is false to label them (CAD especially) as gaming news sites. Assuming that was the only issue, I'd have left the edit mostly alone and simply removed the news sites title (to something more like "Penny Arcade and Ctrl+Alt+Del did not review the device as favourably [as the previously mentioned reviewers]"). There is no reason to mis-label them as news sites unless to try and raise their credibility (which PA at least certainly doesn't need).

 * The problem is though that it was not the only issue. The CAD thing is definitely not notable (a negative or positive opinion alone isn't notable from any source without expansion or it being part of a trend etc, and in that case it is the trend that is notable, not the single opinion). Anyone can show specific sources to show that something is either good or bad, so without some additional commentary its inclusion is meaningless. Also, unless reasons are given the whole section is fairly pointless (unless you list every single person who has either a negative or positive opinion, which is impractical at best).

 * As for the Penny Arcade addition, I can see that it may well be relevant and that it was a quote from a discussion/review about Kinect. The problem with that is that it wasn't talking about Kinect but about reviews/reviewers, which without the rest of the review is not relevant. The fact that is is sourced is irrelevant, as it needs to make sense within the article. That doesn't mean that the whole article needs to be quoted, only that the quotation made was not appropriate.

 * To help explain, here is an except from your post:
 * "Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection, "I'd say that enthusiast gamers are singularly bad at predicting broad market success. If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?""

 * Now here it is paraphrased:
 * Tycho said "I don't think gamers are a good judge of success of a thing, so if we don't like something, does that mean it is good?"

 * You should be able see the issue - it in no way makes reference to the Kinect, or even the reviews/reviewers for that matter. The main issue is the context in which it has been included - it has been added as simply a quote, which on its own doesn't actually say anything about the Kinect. Now if the section around it were changed from "Tycho Brahe volunteers the introspection" to something more like "Although he reviewed the device poorly, Penny Arcade's Tycho Brahe doesn't think the gaming press are good judges of the device, saying" it would at least be slightly relevant (although I wouldn't use that wording in an article). Heck, even removing the bit about him reviewing it poorly would work. The thing is it still says little about what he actually thinks of Kinect. A better way to go about it would be to avoid quoting all together and simply paraphrase the article.

 * I haven't read the article on purpose so as to not inject meaning into the quote (anything I have said is based on what your edit contained and having already seen the CAD comic) - the Wikipedia page has to make sense from the point of view of someone who hasn't read the article and shouldn't rely on them following the citation (a citation is kinda like saying "Don't believe/trust me? Here's the proof", not "this is an excerpt from this article which you should read for more info"). As such, you need to put the quote in context unless it is self explanatory.

 *  Alphathon ™ ( talk ) 16:24, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

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[[Media:Clinton-vegan-powerband.jpg]]
Hi, I was just wondering where you found this picture that was sourced to the EPA -- I was unable to locate it on their web site. Thanks A13ean (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit: whoops, just found the LA times article, thanks A13ean (talk) 14:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

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Anita Sarkeesian
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Your contributed article, Garden window

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Deletion discussion about Garden window
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Thanks,

Enwebb (talk) 05:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Hardened Gentoo for deletion
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Proposed deletion of Programming Challenges (book)

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Proposed deletion of Learn to Play Go

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Nomination of Grsecurity for deletion
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The Comparison Chart to Comparison of Electoral Systems
Hi, just letting you know that this edit was reverted because you changed the color on "Scoring." Now I admit I have some strong feelings about this change, and admittedly, I'm biased, so I'd like to hear your perspective on this change. ⸺RandomStaplers 03:03, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I need to get around to making that column all gray, after a discussion on the IRC channel. It hadn't occurred to me to use a neutral color.  Generally, people recognize solid colors as stronger than washed-out, and they recognize green as good and red as bad.  In the literature, cardinal voting rules are considered non-viable, and occasionally score voting advocates comment that they're treated like climate change deniers in social choice theory academia; as the table gives an impression that one of these is better than the other, I had aligned it to this view from the literature.  It's either appropriate to shade them as such or to not shade them at all. John Moser (talk) 13:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Quantized inertia for deletion
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Geller-STV moved to draftspace
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Proposed deletion of Time and extent measurement by arcs

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Proposed deletion of PaX

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Cleanup e-prime
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Solidarity wage policy moved to draftspace
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August 2022
Please do not add or change content, as you did at Benford's law, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Youtube is not a reliable source  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 21:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

 * I see:
 * Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources ***with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy***. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of ***reliable authors***, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. The following examples cover only some of the possible types of reliable sources and source reliability issues, and are not intended to be exhaustive. ***Proper sourcing always depends on context***; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.
 * The data is available, and has been analyzed. The Youtube video in question is published by an author who is well-respected for mathematical expertise and reliable analysis.  Each source is individually judged, not subject to your blanket judgment of the media type.
 * The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. John Moser (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See what they say at WP:RSN if you don't believe me. Youtube has not editorial oversight and is not consider appropriate as a source for anything other than WP:ABOUTSELF  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Then neither is arXiv, anything published by any independent "think tank" like the Economic Policy Institute, or anything published by any news media outlet, as none of these face rigorous peer review outside their own organization; and in the case of news media outlets, they don't even rigorously support their own analyses. As well, many books cited on many articles are not published by peer-reviewed clearing houses. John Moser (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * From WP:SELFPUB:
 * elf-published works are sometimes acceptable as sources, so self-publication is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to automatically dismiss a source as "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While many self-published sources happen to be unreliable, the mere fact that it is self-published does not prove this. A self-published source can be independent, authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, and expert-approved.
 * It's nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you're trying to portray it, and it leans in my favor to say the least. John Moser (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Go ask RSN if you need to hear it from someone else  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, welcome to the problem of trying to find good reliable sources for Wikipedia articles. If you think that your Youtube video is a viable WP:SPS, then please bring it up at the reliable sources noticeboard, which is staffed by Wikipedia editors who have also noodled on this issue for more than a moment.
 * The broad issue here is that YouTube allows for arbitrary user-submitted content, so it is largely impossible to make good, generalizable claims about the validity and the provenance of information that shows up there. Nothing stops me from making a YouTube video about Benford's law, but there are many independent barriers to my publishing a similar view in the pages of The Economist.
 * Furthermore, the subject of interpreting Benford's law vis a vis election results is fraught with pitfalls both analytical and rhetorical, so we don't just want a good source on the subject, we would prefer the best possible source. Protonk (talk) 22:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the "extraordinary claims" thing. Notably, the claim made is that a different application of Bedford's law to the same data (in this case, analyzing the last pair of digits) produces no fraud for Biden but massive evidence of fraud for Trump, and is also invalid—meaning the same tool can be put to the same data and produce different results, i.e. you can manipulate the data to get the narrative you want.  That's not an extraordinary claim (whereas claiming that this application is "actually correct" and thus Trump did commit massive fraud would be extraordinary).  His explanation of why this fails is more than just "but it's wrong," he examines what precisely causes it to fail, how it fails, and why it fails that way—as in, why the failure mode look even more severe for Trump than for Biden.  This leaves little room for manipulative analytical and rhetorical analysis, to say the least.
 * Further, WP:SELFPUB does mention that in some cases, the particular information may just not be published in an academic journal or other source. I'm skeptical to how much value The Economist would see in publishing further analysis, whereas it can be argued that the abuse of a tool on the same data in different manners can allow one to fish out completely opposing narratives, both faulty, seems encyclopedic.  A debate over how encyclopedic that is is one thing; a debate over whether this would be considered an appropriate source for a claim that's verifiably correct is another. John Moser (talk) 22:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue isn't manipulative analytical or rhetorical actions (though that is always a worry) but simply erroneous ones. Benford's law is deceptively complex and does not (despite our ability to couch it in pithy terms) lend itself to straightforward analysis. In this case, as someone has already pointed out in the talk page, there isn't really an application of Benford's law to "last" digits of a number--the law is mostly interested in first digits (and to a markedly lesser extent second and third), "last" digits aren't really of interest especially since they are more often than not the result of a truncation or rounding process. Protonk (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Second digit I've seen, also in the same paper:
 * A second example illustrates a less formal type of theory we deem essential for evaluating any proposed forensic indicator of fraud. We refer here to the argument of Berber and Scacco (2008) for the relevance of looking at the last and next to last digits of vote tallies.
 * There are also papers that dispute that 2BL is even related to Benford's law, basically asserting that Benford's law applies to the first digit, singular, and that examining second digits is silly and pointless. Applying the analysis to last digits is not unprecedented in the literature though (it also appears to be complete trash).
 * Truncation and rounding are valid problems in some cases (e.g. bad accounting, or IRS tax returns maybe since they round to the dollar), but this is about vote tallies and so that argument's a bit weaker in context; at the same time, the context is that the analysis is invalid for this use so whatever, not important here. John Moser (talk) 23:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 2nd, 3rd, and 4th digit results exist and do (we think! as you note there's still a bit of theoretical mystery) stem from the same process that produces 1st digit outcomes, but the distance from equipotential is smaller and smaller as you move away from the first digit. However, there is no special characteristic of 'last' digits which come from Benford's law. There are other analyses which can be applied to the last digit of a number to learn some things about the process which generated the number but I'm much less sure those are connected to a law of first digits.
 * Either way, it's important to insist on reliable sources on the subject ESPECIALLY because there is so much potential for confusion even in a purely mathematical realm. Adding in questions of fraud, politics and tabulating election results and there is an even higher chance for confusion or misrepresentation. It's also worth noting that we don't need to be in a rush to update our encyclopedia article on a mathematical relationship with information/speculation about a recent(ish) election. There is no deadline and we can afford to be patient. Protonk (talk) 01:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Conversation at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard doesn't even have anyone suggesting something isn't a reliable source because "it's YouTube" and the conversation has entirely supported the source as valid, with one comment suggesting SPS may address topics that don't meet a standard of contribution to the field appropriate for an academic journal (i.e. it may be correct and rigorous, but not something that would merit appearing in a prestigious research periodical), and another pointing out that the SPS has a book published and that publication doesn't need to be an academic source. Whether the information belongs in the article is another matter; but the validity of the source isn't even in question. John Moser (talk) 20:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Solidarity wage policy (November 4)
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Your draft article, Draft:Solidarity wage policy

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Nomination of Yamaha OPL for deletion
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title: User talk:Bluefoxicy


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User talk:DorotaP~enwiki

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title: User talk:DorotaP~enwiki


text:
User talk:Laca

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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Please vote to keep CDP-USA userbox
Please consider going to here and voting to keep the CDP-USA userbox. Thanks. Guðsþegn – UTCE – 20:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Manchu Wikipedia gegruendet ?
Sehr geherter Laca, I habe eine Frage, koennen Sie mir helfen um die Manchu Wikipedia zu schreiben weil ich nur weniger Kenntnisse im diese Sprache habe. Freundliche gruessen. Whlee 12:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yue Fei page
If you can do better, update it. If not, stop complaining. (Ghostexorcist 19:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
 * That's a massive entry, I do not have that kind of time (and in many cases that kind of knowledge). But I hope we can agree Wikipedia entries should have some minimum standards, and that article clearly doesn't meet them. Laca 13:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what you think. (Ghostexorcist 00:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Yes, indeed=)Laca 05:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Help needed
I need someone who knows German to translate me whats written here. I really need the licence type and why it's public domain for image. The German Wikipedia is the only Wikipedia i found a free image of the man. Hope for help, thank you. M.V.E.i. 18:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Laca


text:
User talk:Quota

‘Talk away...’

Biltong
Just look at the article history. You are the one who was opposed to claiming that biltong differs from jerky because it is never sweet (you even claimed that you have personally tasted British made biltong that was in fact sweet). You correctly pointed out that such a claim is not supported by a cite. I then agreed with you that finding a cite to support the claim would be virtually impossible - people generally don't write about what things are not, unless they are specifically refuting a pre-existing erroneous allegation. Now you have done a complete turnaround and want the statement to be included - even though the chance of it ever having a RS is very slim. I don't understand how/why you have reversed your position. Roger (talk) 07:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Roger, I think we may be victims of the too-short comments in the history. I completely agree that the distinguishing feature between jerky & biltong is that the former is (almost always) sweet and the latter is (almost never) sweet.  My objection was simply that 'never' is too strong a word to use here, especially as it is about a subjective opinion.  I'm still not sure why you objected to my 'watering down' the adverb so it was not controversial.
 * I do think that the distinction is worth pointing out -- without it, that sentence just says 'jerky and biltong are different in unspecified ways', when in practice they are hugely different. Hope that clarifies, and thanks for getting in touch! quota (talk) 08:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think your latest edit has got it right, the way you've formulated the statement looks sustainable to me. Cheers! Roger (talk) 08:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, great, and thanks! quota (talk) 12:37, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Chintz edit
Regarding your edit to Chintz, I'm sure you meant well, but you may not have realised that chint redirects to a page for a Chinese electronic goods company. I reverted as it looked like stealth advertising for the CHINT co., although I'm sure your edit was made in good faith. Mabalu (talk) 14:08, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well spotted -- thanks, will revise ...

Decimal representation
Hi. You have reverted my edit in decimal representation. If you think that it is only an advert, then put ther link to free tool which can find period and preperiod of decimal representation of ratio. I do not know such tool. Best regards. --Adam majewski (talk) 22:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a software tools directory ... :-) quota (talk) 11:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So why you don't remove also link to Plouffe's inverter ? --Adam majewski (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point!  Done.  quota (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your point of view but I do not agree with you . See : "External links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article;" ( from Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not ) --Adam majewski (talk) 09:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, put it back then. I won't remove it a second time.  I just had another look at that page you linked -- at first glance all one sees is the two huge adverts, the the first has nothing to do with the topic.  Why not move them down a bit...?   quota (talk) 10:13, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Twelfth Night (holiday)
You should look at my comments on the talk page. Dougweller (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Umm, why? I haven't made any edits on that page (or its Talk), I think?    quota (talk) 07:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

title: User talk:Quota


text:
User talk:Rachelinga

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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Mayhem (band)

Mayhem is a Norwegian black metal band formed in Langhus in 1984. They were one of the founders of the Norwegian black metal scene, and their music has strongly influenced the black metal genre. Mayhem's early career was highly controversial, primarily because of their notorious live performances, the 1991 suicide of vocalist Per Yngve Ohlin ("Dead") and the 1993 murder of guitarist Øystein Aarseth ("Euronymous") by former member Varg Vikernes ("Count Grishnackh") of Burzum.

The group released a demo and an EP that were highly influential, and amassed a loyal following through sporadic and notorious live performances, attracting further attention through their ties to the string of Norwegian church burnings and the incidents of violence surrounding them. Mayhem temporarily disbanded after Aarseth's murder, shortly before the release of their debut album, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, regarded as a classic of the black metal genre. Surviving former members Jan Axel Blomberg ("Hellhammer"), Jørn Stubberud ("Necrobutcher") and Sven Erik Kristiansen ("Maniac") reformed the band in 1995 with Rune Eriksen ("Blasphemer") replacing Aarseth. Attila Csihar and Morten Iversen ("Teloch") have since replaced Kristiansen and Eriksen, respectively. Their post-Aarseth material is characterized by increased experimentation. The 2007 album Ordo Ad Chao received the Spellemann Award for best heavy metal album.

Early years (1984–1988)
Mayhem was founded in 1984 by guitarist Øystein Aarseth (known initially as "Destructor", later "Euronymous"), bassist Jørn Stubberud ("Necrobutcher") and drummer Kjetil Manheim, taking their band name from the Venom song "Mayhem with Mercy". The band members were mainly influenced by groups such as Venom, Motörhead, Black Sabbath, Slayer, Bathory, Celtic Frost and Parabellum. The lineup began playing cover songs by Black Sabbath, Venom, Motörhead and later recorded the demo Pure Fucking Armageddon. After its release, Aarseth, along with Stubberud, during first demo's studio rehearsals, recruited two session members, Eirik Norheim ("Messiah") and Sven Erik Kristiansen ("Maniac"), in 1986 and 1987. Norheim performed only for one concert, which took place on 20 April 1985 in Ski, and by the end of that year he had quit Mayhem. He later formed hardcore punk band Within Range and Oi!/street punk band Cockroach Clan. Whereas, with Kristiansen, Mayhem recorded its first EP, Deathcrush, in 1987, and released it through Euronymous' newly formed label Posercorpse Music. Manheim and Euronymous only played at one show on 22 March 1986 at the Ski theater as L.E.G.O. and the show was recorded on video. This was a side project about experimental music against mainstream.

The initial 1,000 copy release of Deathcrush quickly sold out. It was later reissued in 1993 by the newly renamed Deathlike Silence Productions as a joint venture with Euronymous' Oslo specialist record shop Helvete (Norwegian for "Hell"). Manheim and Maniac left the band in 1988.

With Dead (1988–1991)
After two brief replacements, Maniac and Manheim's positions were filled by Swedish vocalist Pelle Yngve Ohlin ("Dead") and local drummer Jan Axel Blomberg ("Hellhammer"). With Dead, the band's concerts became notorious. For concerts, Dead went to great lengths to achieve the image and atmosphere he wished. From the beginning of his career, he was known to wear "corpse paint", which involved covering his face with black and white makeup. According to Necrobutcher, "it wasn't anything to do with the way Kiss and Alice Cooper used makeup. Dead actually wanted to look like a corpse. He didn't do it to look cool". Hellhammer claimed that Dead "was the first black-metal musician to use corpse paint". To complete his corpse-like image, Dead would bury his stage clothes and dig them up again to wear on the night of a concert.

While performing, Dead would often cut himself with hunting knives and broken glass. Additionally, the band often had pig or sheep heads impaled on stakes and planted at the front of their stage.

Stian Johansen ("Occultus"), who briefly took over as vocalist after Dead's suicide, made this statement about him:

"'He [Dead] didn't see himself as human; he saw himself as a creature from another world. He said he had many visions that his blood has frozen in his veins, that he was dead. That is the reason he took that name. He knew he would die.'"

In 1990, the members of Mayhem moved to "an old house in the forest" near Oslo, which was used as a place for the band to rehearse. They began writing songs for their next album, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas. Mayhem bassist Necrobutcher said that, after living together for a while, Dead and Euronymous "got on each other's nerves a lot" and "weren't really friends at the end". Hellhammer recalls that Dead once went outside to sleep in the woods because Euronymous was playing synth music that Dead hated. Euronymous then went outside and began shooting into the air with a shotgun. Varg Vikernes claims that Dead once stabbed Euronymous with a knife.

On the 8th of April 1991, Dead committed suicide in the house rented by the band. He was found by Euronymous with slit wrists and a shotgun wound to the head. Dead's suicide note started with the sentence "Excuse all the blood" and included a brief explanation "nobody will ever understand this, but as a sort of explanation, I am not human, this is only a dream and soon I will awake". The full text has become public and it ended by saying "I didn't come up with this now but 17 years ago". Attached to the note, Dead left the lyrics of the song Life Eternal. When Euronymous found all this, he went to a nearby store and bought a disposable camera to photograph the corpse, after re-arranging some items.

Necrobutcher recalls how Euronymous told him of the suicide:"Øystein called me up the next day ... and says, 'Dead has done something really cool! He killed himself'. I thought, have you lost it? What do you mean cool? He says, 'Relax, I have photos of everything'. I was in shock and grief. He was just thinking how to exploit it. So I told him, 'OK. Don't even fucking call me before you destroy those pictures'."

Euronymous used Dead's suicide to foster Mayhem's 'evil' image and claimed Dead had killed himself because black metal had become 'trendy' and commercialized. In time, rumors spread that Euronymous had made a stew with bits of Dead's brain and had made necklaces with bits of his skull. The band later denied the former rumor, but confirmed that the latter was true. Moreover, Euronymous claimed to have given these necklaces to musicians he deemed worthy, which was confirmed by several other members of the scene, like Bård 'Faust' Eithun and Jon 'Metalion' Kristiansen. In 2018, a fragment of Dead's skull also went on sale for $3,500, along with the letter from Euronymous that it was posted with. The letter finishes with: "OK! That should be all. I'm enclosing a little piece from Dead's cranium in case you'd like to have it. Hear from you soon!" On a 2019 interview with Loudwire and Consequence of Sound, Necrobutcher claimed to have had plans to kill Euronymous since he was disgusted by his treatment of Dead, but that Vikernes "beat [him] to it". It remains a trend for fans to produce artwork using blood. One such example is actually by drummer Hellhammer himself, who wrote lyrics to Pagan Fears in his own blood in October 2019. Artist Maxime André Taccardi has also produced a painting of Dead using his own blood.

Murder of Euronymous, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas and breakup (1991–1994)
Dead's suicide and Euronymous's actions following it affected Necrobutcher so much that he left Mayhem, thinning the band's ranks down to two. The group rehearsed for a short time thereafter with Occultus, joining the band with plans to begin recording vocal and bass tracks for Mayhem's debut album, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas. However, this was short-lived; he left the band after receiving a death threat from Euronymous. In July 1993, Live in Leipzig was released as the band's tribute to Dead.

In late 1992, the recording of Mayhem's upcoming album resumed; thus Aarseth engaged three more session musicians: Burzum's Varg Vikernes (stage name "Count Grishnackh"), Thorns' Snorre W. Ruch ("Blackthorn"), who handled bass guitar and rhythm guitar respectively, and singer Attila Csihar, of Hungarian black metal band Tormentor. Due to complaints by his parents, Euronymous closed his scene focal point record shop Helvete, claiming as reasons adverse media and police attention. Much of the album was recorded during the first half of 1993 at the Grieg Hall in Bergen. To coincide with the release of the album, Euronymous and Vikernes had conspired to blow up Nidaros Cathedral, which appears on the album cover. Euronymous's murder in August 1993 put an end to this plan and delayed the album's release.

On the 10th of August 1993, Vikernes murdered Euronymous. On that night, Vikernes and Ruch travelled 518 km from Bergen to Euronymous' apartment in Oslo. Upon their arrival, a confrontation ensued, which ended when Vikernes fatally stabbed Euronymous. His body was found outside the apartment with twenty-three cut wounds — two to the head, five to the neck and sixteen to the back. Vikernes claims that Euronymous had plotted to torture him to death and videotape the event, using a meeting about an unsigned contract as a pretext. On the night of the murder, Vikernes claims he intended to hand Euronymous the signed contract and "tell him to fuck off", but that Euronymous attacked him first. Additionally, Vikernes also claimed that most of Euronymous' cut wounds were caused by broken glass he had fallen on during the struggle. Vikernes was arrested within days, and a few months later he was sentenced to 21 years in prison, the maximum sentence administered in Norway, for both the murder and church arsons; he was released from prison in 2009. Blackthorn, who waited for Vikernes downstairs and took no part in Aarseth's murder, was charged with complicity in murder and sentenced to serve 8 years in prison. With only Attila and Hellhammer remaining, Mayhem ceased to exist.

In a video interview with Consequence of Sound on 15 October 2019, Necrobutcher discussed his bitterness toward Euronymous after being replaced in the band with Varg Vikernes before the recording of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas. He then began speaking upon Euronymous' murder, stating that:

"'OK, I can tell it right now, because I've been holding it in for many years, but actually I was on my way down to kill him myself. And when it happened, I saw the morning paper, thinking 'Fuck, I gotta get home to my place and get out all the weapons and drugs and shit I had in my house, because they're coming to my house because I'm probably going to be the No. 1 suspect for this.' But little did I know that the Norwegian police already knew that Count Grishnackh [Varg] was going down also to kill him. Because they bugged his phone, and he actually talked about this killing before he went to Bergen so the cops already knew that he was coming, so they probably were thinking to themselves, 'We didn't nail this guy for the church burnings, so let's nail him for murder, and get rid of this fucking guy in Oslo the same time.' So that's basically what happened.'"

In May 1994, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas was released and dedicated to Euronymous. Its release had been delayed due to complaints filed by Euronymous' parents, who had objected to the presence of bass guitar parts played by Vikernes. According to Vikernes himself, Hellhammer assured Aarseth's parents that he would re-record the bass tracks himself; being unable to play bass guitar, Hellhammer left the bass tracks unchanged, and so the album features Vikernes as bassist.

Reunion with Maniac and Necrobutcher and introduction of Blasphemer (1995–2004)

In 1995, a bootleg live recording of a 1990 Mayhem concert was released, titled The Dawn of the Black Hearts. Despite being a bootleg, the album is sometimes listed as one of the band's main albums, mainly due to the notoriety regarding the cover art, which is one of the aforementioned photographs of Dead shortly after he died from suicide.

Around that time, Hellhammer, Maniac, and Necrobutcher had reformed the band with new guitarist Rune Eriksen ("Blasphemer") in place of Euronymous. Despite arousing some controversy and scepticism for reforming without founding member Euronymous, the group returned with the 1997 Wolf's Lair Abyss EP.

In this new phase, statements by Hellhammer (who spoke out against race mixing and foreigners in Norway) and the use of Nazi imagery such as swastika flags in the rehearsal room, the Totenkopf emblem and band merchandise featuring the symbol of the military branch of Nasjonal Samling led to controversy and accusations of neo-Nazism.

Additionally, Hellhammer stated that no member of the new line-up was a Satanist, and that the "Satanic stuff […] isn't what I feel Mayhem is about today. […] Mayhem's music is still dark, but I wouldn't say that it's Satanic."

The band's second full-length album, Grand Declaration of War, was released in 2000. Strongly influenced by progressive and avant-garde metal, the album was concept-based, dealing with themes of war and post-apocalyptic destruction. Maniac largely abandoned the traditional black metal rasp for dramatic spoken-word monologue, with most of the songs sequencing seamlessly into one another. Because of this conceptual straying, however, the album received harsh criticism.

Mayhem made headlines in 2003 when fan Per Kristian Hagen landed in the hospital with a fractured skull after being hit by a severed sheep's head that had been thrown into the audience from the stage. Assault charges were filed, but the band considered it to have been entirely accidental.

The band released Chimera in 2004, showing a return to their initial raw sound, but with higher production value and a progressive edge.

Later that year, Maniac left the band. According to Necrobutcher, this was due to his alcoholism induced by stage fright. Necrobutcher explained that because of this tendency, a violent encounter between the singer and Blasphemer led to the guitarist kicking Maniac down a flight of stairs, resulting in injury. Csihar was reinstated as his replacement.

Return of Csihar; Ordo Ad Chao (2004–2008)

The band's fourth full-length album, Ordo ad Chao (Latin for "Order to Chaos"), was released in April 2007. Ordo ad Chao contained a much rawer sound than the rest of the band's recent work; the drums were not equalized and the mix was notably bass-heavy against black metal convention. The album continued the band's experiments with unorthodox song structures, with "Illuminate Eliminate", at 9:40, the band's second longest track (behind Grand Declaration of War's "Completion in Science of Agony (Part I)" at 9:44). The album received strong reviews and was the band's highest-charting album, peaking at No. 12 on the Norwegian charts. In early 2008 Ordo Ad Chao won a Spellemannprisen, an award from the largest and oldest of Norway's music awards shows, for Best Metal Album of 2007.

Blasphemer's departure and Esoteric Warfare (2008–2015)
In April 2008, Blasphemer announced his plans to leave the band, expressing a lack of desire to continue despite satisfaction with their accomplishments. He played European festival dates over the following months, with his last performance in the group coming in August. He thereafter continued work with the Portuguese band Ava Inferi.

Statements of imminent touring plans were announced on the band's web page a few weeks after their final dates with Blasphemer. In October 2008, Krister Dreyer ("Morfeus") of Dimension F3H and Limbonic Art joined the group as touring guitarist for their upcoming South America Fucking Armageddon tour. The band toured through late 2008 and 2009 with this lineup, prior to announcing Summer 2009 dates with Silmaeth, a French musician, as a second touring guitar. In November 2009, the band was arrested in Tilburg, Netherlands, after destroying a hotel room while on tour. Norwegian guitarist Teloch of Nidingr replaced Silmaeth, and British guitarist Charles Hedger (aka Ghul) of Imperial Vengeance replaced Morfeus, in 2011 and 2012.

In an interview in 2012, Necrobutcher revealed that Mayhem had begun work on their fifth studio album. As of November 2013, the new album was being mixed, with an early 2014 release date expected. Several months later, on 18 February 2014, it was announced that Mayhem would release a new album in May 2014, with a new song "Psywar" made available for streaming.

On 20 February 2014, the band's record label, Season of Mist, announced that the new album Esoteric Warfare would be released worldwide on 27 May 2014. This marked the first Mayhem studio effort since Blasphemer's departure and Teloch's permanent status in the band.

In January 2015, Mayhem, Watain, and Revenge played together as part of the "Black Metal Warfare" tour in the United States. Mayhem and Watain toured again in the United States in November 2015 with Rotting Christ as "Part II" of the previous tour.

Live album, Lords of Chaos film and Daemon (2016–2020)
A live recording of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (DMDS Alive) was released in 2016.

Later the same year, a film about the band, Lords of Chaos (based on the book of the same name), premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, directed by Jonas Åkerlund, again propelling the group into the media spotlight. While the film received mixed reviews from both critics and fans, band members Necrobutcher and Csihar strongly objected to the movie, despite initially granting the rights to use the band's songs. In several interviews, the two argued that the film gave a one-sided perspective of the story, with particular complaints given to the failure to showcase the deteriorating relationship between Euronymous and Dead in the year before the latter's suicide in April 1991. In 2018, the band released a remixed and remastered version of A Grand Declaration of War. Mayhem's sixth studio album, Daemon, was released on 25 October 2019 through Century Media Records. Three singles: Worthless Abominations Destroyed, Of Worms and Ruins and Falsified and Hated were released ahead of the album. The album is characterised by a return to the more traditional style of black metal like in De Mysteriis and contains 10 new songs with a further two bonus tracks and several covers [including of Dead's old band Morbid] in the extended album. A music video for Falsified And Hated was released on 7 November and shows what appears to be a shaking tent ritual; it also shows a heart being cut open as part of this. Ziggy Jonas Rasmusson, a graffiti artist, was involved in the design.

In 2020, it was announced that drummer Tony Laureano would temporarily be filling-in for Hellhammer on the Decibel Magazine Tour due to Hellhammer suffering from a shoulder injury. The tour was, however, ultimately cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Atavistic Black Disorder / Kommando (2021–present)
In 2021, Mayhem was inducted into the Rockheim Hall of Fame, after being nominated for the third time earlier the same year. As of 2021, they are the only black metal group to be inducted.

Mayhem announced a new EP, Atavistic Black Disorder / Kommando, that was released on 9 July 2021. The track listing consists of 3 outtakes from the Daemon sessions, two of which were used as bonus tracks on the deluxe edition of the album along with 4 cover songs from punk rock bands who the band cite as "laying the foundation of what was to come". The EP features guest appearances by former vocalists Messiah and Maniac on one cover track each. This marks Messiah and Maniac's first studio recordings with the band since 1987's Deathcrush and 2004's Chimera respectively. Necrobutcher stated the two former vocalists were brought in "because of their obvious connection with punk".

Mayhem announced a 2022 United States tour, The Sanguine Sodomy of North America, that began March 7 with a show in San Francisco, California and is projected to end on April 3 after a show in Joliet, Illinois. On 4 March, Watain announced that they would not be able to participate in the tour due to a United States embassy "decid[ing] to launch an additional, undisclosed 'administrative process' in relation to [their] visa applications".

Band members
Current members
 * Necrobutcher – bass (1984–1991, 1995–present)
 * Hellhammer – drums, percussion (1988–1993, 1995–present)
 * Attila Csihar – vocals (1992–1993, 2004–present)
 * Teloch – guitar (2011–present)
 * Ghul – guitar (2012–present)

Former members
 * Euronymous – guitar (1984–1993; murdered by Vikernes in 1993)
 * Manheim – drums, percussions (1984–1987)
 * Messiah – vocals (1986)
 * Maniac – vocals (1986–1988, 1995–2004)
 * Dead – vocals (1988–1991; committed suicide in 1991)
 * Occultus – vocals, bass (1991)
 * Count Grishnackh – bass (1992–1993, arrested)
 * Blackthorn – guitar (1992–1993, arrested)
 * Blasphemer – guitar (1995–2008)

Discography
Studio albums
 * De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (1994)
 * Grand Declaration of War (2000)
 * Chimera (2004)
 * Ordo ad Chao (2007)
 * Esoteric Warfare (2014)
 * Daemon (2019)

Videography

 * Live in Ski (1986)
 * Home-made rehearsal with Dead (1988)
 * Live in Sarpsborg (1990)
 * Live in Jessheim (1990)
 * Live in Bischofswerda (1998)
 * European Legions: Live in Marseille 2000 (2001)
 * Mayhem – Cult of Aggression (Norwegian/Swedish documentary by Stefan Rydehed) (2002)
 * Live at Wacken (2004)
 * Appearance in Metal: A Headbanger's Journey (2005)
 * Appearance in BBC One World episode Death Metal Murders (2005)
 * Once Upon a Time in Norway – The History of Mayhem and the Rise of Norwegian Black Metal (2008)
 * Pure Fucking Mayhem (English documentary by Stefan Rydehed) (2008)
 * Until the Light Takes Us (American documentary by Aaron Aites/Audrey Ewell) (2008)
 * De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas Alive (2016)

title: Mayhem (band)


text:
User talk:Freeman6

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~.

Cheers, Sam [Spade] 05:46, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Wadr cover.jpg
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title: User talk:Freeman6


text:
User talk:Capnned

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I find useful

 * Policy Library
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
 * Conflict resolution
 * Brilliant prose
 * Neutral point of view
 * Pages needing attention
 * Peer review
 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
 * Village pump
 * Boilerplate text

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~.

Cheers, Sam [Spade] 05:47, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Zsanett Egerhazi
It was deleted until you recreated it. RickK 06:42, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Capnned