text:
Talk:Sedan (automobile)

Concerns
This article claims that the sedan is the most common configuration. I don't know of any statistics, but I'd say that, certainly in Europe, the hatchback is just as common. If anyone has statistics or can clarify this in some other way then please tell me. If not, then I'll probably edit it to say that the sedan is one of the most common configurations. 999 11:26, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

The photograph of "Tata Indigo" in the article is not a sedan but a station wagon variant of the car called "Tata Indigo Marina", if observed closely one can see the letters "SW" on the front number plate in the photo for "Station Wagon".. The photo has to be changed.
 * —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.68.145.230 (talk • contribs). On 12:37, February 20, 2006.

There only seem to be examples from the US, I didn't even know a sedan was a saloon car the article is too american rather than international. (Fdsdh1 (talk) 15:22, 14 July 2012 (UTC))

2-door sedan
I've added a merge proposition for the 2-door sedan article, it more or less says the same thing as the 2-door sedan section. Alternatively, we could merge the section into that article; however, 2-door sedan is the only specific type of sedan to have its own article. --Varco 22:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just finished the merge. --Hetar 01:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I called it Two-door sedan in the article now, too, bringing in some consistency and trying to avoid sentences that start with 2. —Camaro96 06:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC).
 * The link to "Coupé" is somewhat misleading as a two-door sedan is not a coupe. Further I included the expression "coach" which was used by many manufacturers for this body style, mainly in France but also in the U.S. --Chief tin cloud (talk) 10:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation
denomination

sedan should leed to the disambiguation. its utterly ignorant to think the car would be the first thing to look up. a wellknown battle took place there and its a big city.--Tresckow 15:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree. I think most people looking for the French town would go to Sedan, France, and anyone looking for the battle would go to Battle of Sedan.  Calling it a big city is a stretch, its own article states that it is only a town with 20,000 people.  More people will probably know what a sedan car is than what happened at the Battle of Sedan.  -Varco 18:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

maybe in the us but no british, australian or anyone in the rest of the world knows what a sedan is. so general information and not specificly american should be emphasized. at least sedan should bring you tto the disambiguation.--Tresckow 13:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like sour grapes.
 * I disagree with Tresckow and agree with Varco--true, a Brit may not know what a sedan is, but in that case s/he would look up "saloon", which would not be ambiguous at all. So, the only question is North Americans looking up sedan, and frankly, I hadn't heard of Sedan, France before reading this.  And when looking up places, unless it's someplace known worldwide like Paris or Tokyo, I put the country name in after the city name.  I think the other uses link at the top of the article is the perfect solution for those looking for Sedan, France and getting the car style instead.  Jrbbopp 14:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sedan is a place thats well know word wide, your personal knowledge of geography has no bearing on that. Sedan should go to Disambiguation as the car classification is exclusively North American whilst the Place and the Chair Universaly use Sedan through out the Angloshere. French doesn't distinguish between towns and cities so the translation of Ville is irrelevent. As to what you say on world wide knowledge, Jermyn Redirects to a town/city in Pensylvania that none outside of the US has heard of even though the Jermyn familly and the street are much more well known. Its entirely a case of the Americanisation thats ruining Wikipedia.(Morcus (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC))

I understand where you're coming from but what do you think would happen if Sedan linked to the article about the town and only gave a link to the car style as a "see also"? you know as well as I do that there would be far more complaining, whining and general petty back and forth as is always the case when a large group of users collide with another large group. Compromise is key, I'd wager people looking for information on the car style will likely type Sedan and those who are looking for the town will either type "Sedan, France", "Battle of Sedan" or will do so after finding themselves at the car style page - it's not a huge issue. 84.67.49.73 (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a big issue, compromise is the key and the biggest compromise would be a disambiguation page which would obviously contain the car body style, the chair, the place and the battle. The big deal is the over Americanisation of wikipedia. the Sedan article doesn't give a correct deffinition of the saloon body style but I'm sure any attempt to make a page on said body style would quickly be deleted. The only car body style with different names in English and American that doesn't use the American is Coupé, surely if it was about compromise that wouldn't be the case. To restate my position, it is a big issue because its a case of Usonion Arogance which is ruining Wikipedia and the assumption that because most americans will be looking for the car body that everyone in the Anglosphere will be. This is sadly the case with so much here. I can't speak for anywhere else but most people in the UK are more likely to think Chair than car if you say sedan and most wouldn't know that the Saloon body is called sedan in north America.Why should the rest of us have to go through more for the benefit of the US and Canada (And before you try and claim most english speakers are from those to places I point you towards India and Pakistan, Both countries where English is the official language and where the vast majority also speak it.(Morcus (talk) 00:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC))

 * One way to look at it would be to go to Special:WhatLinksHere/Sedan_(disambiguation), look through each of the pages that link to Sedan and see to what topic they apply.  I went through the first 500 and found only four that aren't referring to the car style.   Three of these should have pointed to Sedan, France, so I repaired those, and the fourth, located at Battle of Stalingrad, I found to be slightly ambiguous (although most likely refers to Sedan, France).  Personally, I find that alone to be overwhelming evidence that on Wikipedia, the Primary topic for the term "Sedan" is the car style.  In any case, not to sound like a jerk (hopefully I don't because I don't mean to), but I would like to throw in the reminder that whoever was responsible for changing Sedan from a redirect to the car into a redirect to the disambiguation page is also responsible for updating all of the links that point to Sedan, currently more than 1400.  "Links to the old page title will not be changed; be sure to check for double redirects (using "What links here") after the move. You are responsible for making sure that links continue to point where they are supposed to go." (emphasis added)   It would certainly be easier to have it redirect to the car since that's what the overwhelming majority of those links refer to.  Rejectwater (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Obviously there are many brands of cars, and even more models, so the car body style is numerous, and counting links is pointless. Yet, in an encyclopedia, a car style named after a French town (like Limousine) is still less significant than the town itself, or a major battle fought there. See MS Encarta . Its safe to say that a British or Australian source could care less for the Americanisms. US car buffs should learn that there is something outside the lower 48, even if they can't drive there. If you worry about the links, make a WP:Bot Request. -- Matthead Discuß   17:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So it's less pointless to follow what you interpret as the example set by Encarta than to go along with the well established standard on Wikipedia that Sedan refers to the car style, Sedan, France to the town in France, and Battle of Sedan to the battle? Making this change is needlessly disruptive, and in absence of consensus there is no authority to make it. Rejectwater (talk) 22:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sedan (car) refers to the car style. We can change that to saloon (car) anytime if you want. And a bot can replace Sedan with Sedan in the 1000+ articles. BTW: Wikpedia is no democracy, and consensus can change. You may want to read up the the well established standards on Policies and guidelines.-- Matthead Discuß   12:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I realise this is old now but considering that Saloon is used the world over anyhow, while Sedan is mostly confined to America, maybe a switch should occur and the article be renamed to reflect the majority, rather than the minority?
 * Thanks  J e n o v a  20 11:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Please review the WP guidelines in MOS:ENGVAR. No variant of the English language is inherently more correct than another. Moreover, there is no point in mixing up a type of automobile design with a tavern, a room, or establishment where alcoholic drinks are served over a counter; nor with an area found below the deck of a yacht. Thanks! CZmarlin (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Morcus says that this debate is significant because it constitutes "Americanisation of wikipedia". Wikipedia can't become Americanized, wikipedia originated in America, it was "Americanized" to begin with and has only moved gradually away from that and become increasingly international. Which naturally creates confusion. The 330 million English speakers in North America would be very unlikely to have heard of a small French town or of a relatively obscure battle between the French and Prussians. The European wars of the 19th century get very little attention even from highly literate people in America, and to some degree Canada, because the continent of North America was isolated from them and completely focused on the Civil War, the battle over slavery, Reconstruction, and the settling of the West. The endless clashes between monarchies on the other side of the Atlantic seem chaotic and unfamiliar in comparison to North Americans. For these hundreds of millions of English speakers, Sedan is primarily a type of car, not a place or a battle. Walterego (talk) 14:57, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Changes
Regarding the edits by Racky pt (talk)
 * Headings and subheadings are changed only after careful consideration - See: Manual of Style
 * The "See also" section should not be expanded. It is not to be a collection of internal links (except for disambiguation pages when an article title is ambiguous, and for structured lists to assist with the organisation of articles) - See WP:NOT
 * Regarding the comment "Forget history, who needs?" -- Please recall that Wikipedia is a free content, multilingual encyclopedia written collaboratively by contributors around the world. That also means explaining the history and origin of the word "sedan". What better way to illustrate the first use of the word by showing a the drawing of object that was called "sedan". This adds more to the encyclopedia than yet another picture of a modern day 4-door automobile. Thank you - CZmarlin 17:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Carry on good work about history. What i see is there is little about trends in contemporary sedans. all the pics are of olden days. also visitor should not end up in article, he should find ways to navigate. hence i wished to expand see also, you removed hatchback also -not acceptable. as for current trend suv sales are falling and sedan and hatchback are coming to prominence and make for most of market share in developing countries. also not much about design details of sedan like FF and FR layout(not even mentioned). such contemporary info is missing which are more important than history. Racky pt 06:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced crap
These sections were unreferenced. No such thing called S M L XL nor XXL sedan exists on this earth. pasting the code here.

Small sedans
Sedan body styles on smaller cars are now less popular in Europe after the hatchback revolution during the 1970s. In the U.S. and many developing countries notchback sedans like the Volkswagen Jetta retain popularity.

The first major European manufacturer to phase out sedans in favour of hatchbacks was Renault, who introduced the hatchback (Renault 4) in 1961. In the case of Renault, the only sedan offered is the Megane; rival Fiat actually does not offer a sedan model in its European range at all.

On the other hand, the Japanese and Korean automakers continue to offer compact sedans as a popular body design for consumers in a range of brands and models sold in world markets.

Large Sedans
The 3-box sedan body style is still used on large and luxury cars. The hatchback feature has been notably unsuccessful in penetrating this segment worldwide. Instead, the angle of the rear window has been steadily increasing, as seen on the Audi A6, making many modern sedans resemble fastback sedans.

DO NOT ADD without a valid reference. small and large are there in any thing. keep crap away Ali mehmood zaki 14:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This entire article has only 2 references and I put one of those there on a piece that was deleted by someone complaining that my info lacked reference. the whole article should be referenced.(Morcus (talk) 14:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC))

 * The two of you have misunderstood, small/large saloon isn't a classification but a description. The sections should have been challenged for references, but you removed them for the wrong reason. Alastairward (talk) 23:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The first sedan
As far as I'm concerned, a sedan is basically a car with roof. And, as far as I'm concerned, the first sedan was the Renault Voiturette of 1899. I don't reckon of an earlier sedan, but if someone knows, please let me know.--Fluence (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

A Saloon cannot have a tailgate.
I got the reference from the 'Little Oxford English Dictionary' Eighth Edition 2002 isbn 0-19-860452-1 on page 617 under Saloon deffinition 4, Brit a car with a seperate boot. Any British English dictionary should givew the same or at least very simillar deffinition. This is the reason why I started a seperate article for Saloon. I must ask How the OED can be questionable as a source when the article only has one other source and that source is about where the word came from.(Morcus (talk) 01:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC))
 * I'm not questioning the OED, just your interpretation of it. Given your account of the entry, it doesn't seem to support the separate articles.Alastairward (talk) 07:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is a link to the OED online, their definition of saloon is; "c. A type of motor car with a closed body for four or more passengers." This does not mean that the "hatchback saloon/sedan" can be removed from the article, or that you can place a nonsensical comment below. Alastairward (talk) 07:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

1. That link doesn't work unless one has a subscription to it. 2. I'm not advocating a removal of the section as a Sedan body can have a tailgate. 3. the very deffinition of a Saloon is a car with a seperate Boot, Therefore you cannot have a hatchback saloon. Though I couldn't see the deffinition you were reering to, for a car to have 4 doors and be a hatchback it would have to have an odd number of passenger doors as a hatch is a door.(Morcus (talk) 13:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC))

Dear Morcus,
 * 1) I don't have a subscription but I can access it.
 * 2) Your poorly spelled addition to the article is a contradiction to the rest of the article, either you believe the section should stay or shouldn't. If you can't make up your mind I'll remove your addition.Alastairward (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
Alternate move: - Moved Sedan (disambiguation) to Sedan. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 01:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sedan (car) → Sedan — Procedural move. Given the recent squabbling, it's clearly anything but uncontroversial. A wider discussion should hopefully bring some kind of resolution to this. — DeLarge (talk) 14:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * Oppose. Sedan (car) is the proper article name for the car style, as Sedan primarily refers to the French city. Anyway, it is ambiguous, and Sedan should be, or redirect to, the disamb list. False links could be fixed with a bot, but the bot operator wait until the disputes are settled, so let's get over with it.-- Matthead Discuß   15:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I think this is a pretty clear case of where there are two topics of comparable primacy; the current setup works fine. Knepflerle (talk) 16:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Sedan (car) is the primary use. A far larger number of people understand this meaning than the small French town. (In case it matters, I am English, not American.) 128.232.1.193 (talk) 16:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Certainly not primary usage; I regret that our anon has never heard of the Battle of Sedan. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose (and conversely, support for the alternative)—although references to the car are numerically much more prevalent than any other usage (on Wikipedia), that is not the determining factor; it may rather reflect a Wikipedia bias towards American and more-recent topics. The Battle of Sedan is historically significant and the town itself is a notable enough topic to attract some attention.  I'm therefore inclined to favor having the disambig page at Sedan and the car at Sedan (car).  --Russ (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose and move dab page as suggested below, but... I think there is ambiguity here, but I think I'd dispute the "no primary usage" argument based on the available stats. Battle of Sedan receives a steady 4-5k hits per month, while Sedan, France receives about half that. By comparison, the Sedan page has been getting 35-40k of monthly views. I don't know how much of that is affected by one article being at the "sedan" page, so I'm tentatively supporting the primacy of the dab page for the moment. But if the dab page is moved to sedan and the figures stay the same for the next 3-4 months (i.e. the automotive context continues to get 10x the hits of any other article) then I'd support moving sedan (car) back as it'll have been demonstrated to be the primary usage. Also, given the current page hit stats I think the dab page should be edited to move the automotive context nearer the top. Even if we think it's a less historically significant or encyclopedic topic ourselves, that's a subjective judgement on our part and shouldn't be applied to the detriment of readers. --DeLarge (talk) 10:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Took this to WP:RM in the hope of resolving the discussions at Talk:Sedan (car) (above), User talk:Morcus, and User talk:Matthead. Regards, --DeLarge (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * As an alternative proposal, editors may also wish to comment on whether Sedan (disambiguation) should be moved to Sedan, thus establishing the disambiguation page as the target of that title. --Russ (talk) 14:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy with that. Knepflerle (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Support move of Sedan (disambiguation) to Sedan. As a British English speaker, the first thing I think of when hearing the word is a sedan chair not a type of car. DWaterson (talk) 22:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Replacement of images
There is no need to replace the "rights free" image of the Opel 2-door sedan with a low-resolution scan of a General Motors PR picture of a Vega. Thank you, CZmarlin (talk) 15:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't own the article and you don't ALWAYS decide. Your welcome,(Vegavairbob (talk) 00:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC))
 * What is the rationale for replacing it? Alastairward (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Vegavairbob seems very keen on increasing the number of Chevrolet Vega pictures in WP articles. In this instance I agree with CZmarlin. Also, regardless of the quality issue that he touches on, if the Opel image is replaced by any American car, then the article is illustrated entirely by American vehicles, which gives them undue weight. And Vegavairbob? CZmarlin's logical and reasonable response to your unexplained image substitution does not indicate an ownership issue. Writegeist (talk) 02:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not keen on anything...I didn't realize we need a strict country of origin balance with images. My image was a "thin-pillar" 2-door sedan with a text addition. Probably a new (sedan) reference for many. That's why I chose it.(Vegavairbob (talk) 04:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC))

Two-door sedans
Hi. In my experience, most people understand that a sedan has 4 doors and a coupe has 2 doors. Therefore I request that references be provided supporting that "two-door sedan" is a commonly used term. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 10:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Three years later, no comment... Yeah, super confusing here though. Sedan = 4 doors, regardless of rear end, front end, drivetrain, etc. You just can't have a 2 door sedan, as it's literally saying "two door, four door car." Makes as much sense as "four door sports car," which has also never been done. 68.229.212.186 (talk) 02:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Sedan doesn't mean 4-doors. A 2-door sedan is usually a two door version of a four door sedan with the bodies having the same proportion with the only difference being the number of doors. VW Beetles were considered 2-door sedans, so was the Ford Pinto with a trunk and not a hatch. The Ford Fairmont was sold in two and four door sedans but offered a unique coupe with a special roofline.

Coupes typically have smaller rear seat areas, abbreviated rear rooflines or rear quarter windows that are smaller. There is a lot of gray area but not all 2-door cars are coupes. Some are sedans. Watchdevil (talk) 03:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

hatchback sedans
i propose deleting section 1.4 hatchback sedans because it is an oxymoron.

According to the wikipedia article definition of hatchback "sloped back and a rear door that swings upwards when opened" a sedan does not qualify because it does not have a rear door. it has a trunk lid.

Also, this article states that a sedan has a 3 box configuration but hatchbacks have a 2 box configuration. thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.138.255 (talk) 04:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The Daihatsu Applause has a three-box profile and a huge hatch incorporating the rear windscreen and the "boot lid". Very odd, but it might be a "hatchback sedan". Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 09:01, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Hatchback is just the back... hatch. It doesn't care about the doors. Thus, you can have two or four door hatchbacks. 68.229.212.186 (talk) 02:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

How to change the waterpump
How to change the waterpump Bonnieadrian (talk) 04:52, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello Bonnieadrian and thanks for joining Wikipedia. This talk page is for discussions on how to improve the article, not really for discussing Sedans as such. I left a welcome message with more information on how to best use Wikipedia on your Talk page. All the best, Lklundin (talk) 09:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Very broad definition
Hello. The textbook definitions for sedan are very broad (possibly applying to everything from a Porsche 356 to the Maybach Ultimate Luxury Concept SUV!). Does anyone have sources with more practical descriptions of what a sedan usually looks like? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Three box body? No
These images are of three-box bodies as described in the lead??? They are both fastbacks. And why is the Ford Model A not necessary? And why two of the same style and from the same part of the world? And why only their behinds, its not an illustration of fastback designs it it. Eddaido (talk) 08:07, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies, but you need to direct these to my talkpage :). Discuss it there -- Eurovision Nim (talk to me)(see my edits) 03:23, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Eh?? We Are discussing the article aren't we? Eddaido (talk) 03:03, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I reverted it back, don't worry mate -- Eurovision Nim (talk to me)(see my edits) 03:04, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I see. I was thrown off by your "meeting the needs of other users". In common parlance the needs referred to are sexual. Eddaido (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No hahahaha, it happens too much. When I mean that it means I try to edit so that other users are happy with it. But because you weren't, I reverted it back. Merry Christmas -- Eurovision Nim (talk to me)(see my edits) 03:09, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Notch / hatch / lift / fast backs and hardtops
Notch / hatch / lift / fastbacks and hardtops I agree that these body style names stand on their own. But they do also fit the chosen definition of sedan. Somebody needs to make a decision - in consultation of course and exhibiting consensus. . . Eddaido (talk) 11:21, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Eddaido. What specific design (correction: specific decision) do you mean? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 06:53, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, I was really responding to this edit summary of yours "Cars are usually classified as either hatchbacks or sedans, rather than "hatchback sedan"". Aside from that I've made a lot of changes please feel free to disagree with them here if you wish. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 07:00, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Thanks for starting this discussion. I agree that including a mention about sedans with a rear hatch (eg Audi A5, Tesla Model S) is worthwhile. Although a careful distinction needs to be made between sedans that happen to have a rear hatch and the overall body style of a typical hatchback (eg the previous version was claiming the VW Golf, Ford Fiesta, Daewoo LeMans etc to be "two-door hatchback sedans", which I do not believe is correct).
 * Why do you believe that's not right?
 * Regarding the other recent changes, I think it's probably easiest if I make my own and we see where any disagreements exist, rather than trying to explain it. However, I have a couple of question/comments please:
 * - Etymology: Changing "Etymologists report the first recorded use" to "The first known use" (unless the dictionary specifically says that etymologists report that?)
 * ''There are a number of sources (which may in fact be just the one being repeated) so I have cited the most reliable and chosen to make a much less "wooden" statement of it and allows for claims by other people (including the editor that wrote this who did not seem to understand about "recorded") and Georgano etc etc. I don't understand your concern.
 * I Am very concerned that the editor that wrote this section did not understand what he/she was reading - and so made false statements within the text - as you can see from my concealed comments. Waiting on receiving the book cited. In the meantime I think they are dubious but they have the required cites beside them so it would be stupid of me to be Bold.
 * - International terminology: Is the Citation Needed tag just for the Spanish language statements? If so, I think these statements can be removed. Same deal for the sentence about the Rolls Royce Park Ward.
 * You say "these statements (I assume) can be removed" Why?
 * - Standard Styles: The distinction about what is "standard" is subjective. My preference is either all the types together in the variations section, or perhaps split it into current variations and historical ones.
 * No, its not subjective though it may seem so to you. This is an encyclopaedia, it does not just report on current fashions which might be quite different again in a few years time. It needs to try to cover the lot. Close-coupled sedans or saloons are from more than 80 years ago yet an editor has wished to include them.
 * - Close-coupled Saloons: As far as I am aware, the term was only used by UK manufacturers, unless you have references suggesting otherwise?
 * Yes, that's right but why do you tell me this?
 * Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 23:54, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hope the answer format is OK, regards, Eddaido (talk) 01:47, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Thanks Eddaido. That's very dedicated of you, buying a book purely to check that it is being cited correctly!
 * Some of us take more trouble than other casual editors.
 * - Hatchback sedans: the Golf, Fiesta, Daewoo etc are most commonly referred to as simply hatchbacks, so I don't think the article should include them in the "hatchback sedans" section
 * Might you be thinking of current models? Did you not notice the Heck photo?
 * - Etymology: Thanks for confirming that the statement "Etymologists report the first recorded use of sedan..." is warranted.
 * - International terminology: The unreferenced sentences in question aren't significant in the history of sedans. Personally, I'm not fussed whether they are removed or remain.
 * OK. They need to be cited
 * - Standard styles: As you say, body styles come and go over time. This is why I think it is better to list all variations in the one section, rather than trying to judge what is current and/or common.
 * The standard styles have been standard for going on for a century. The variations of the 1920s - 1950s were just that. I suspect a lot more variations might be found in the text books.
 * - Close-coupled Saloons: Just thought I should confirm this before making the edit.
 * What edit is this?
 * Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 03:46, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 03:52, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Discussion
Hi 1292Simon. I see you have made a number of edits. Some debatable. Some just wrong. What happened to our discussion? Eddaido (talk) 09:06, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Eddaido. Yes, I have made several edits. I don't think they go against our discussion (although I hadn't seen your previous your response until afterwards). For example I haven't changed the structure of Standard Styles vs Mid-20th Century Variations, because further discussion is needed. Feel free to change parts you disagree with. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 21:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "they go against our discussion" Well, no, they haven't been discussed have they. Shall I just revert them all and we start again edit by edit? Eddaido (talk) 22:36, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * That is up to you. I'll just point out that Wikipedia policy promotes working to improve existing text, rather than blanket reverting (eg WP:BABY). Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Hello Eddaido. Regarding this edit that you reverted, could you please describe the specific parts you disagree with? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 23:59, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Hello Simon, currently snowed under when I'm able to get to WP. Didn't know you had responded on 30 Dec. Well, the answer is all those parts er amended by you which I have altered. There's more. That was just your first edit. Eddaido (talk) 00:07, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Hello Eddaido. Ahh, no worries. Since you seem unwilling to provide specific reasons for reverting it (albeit with a couple of small changes), here are the areas where I think the previous version is an improvement:
 * The Renault is a significant model, so I think a picture of it is worthwhile.
 * This idea leaves me completely mystified. Why a picture in This article (whether or not it was "significant" - would it have significance enough to go into a Renault article?)
 * To show readers what the first car that is now considered a sedan looks like. If there are refs supporting that the honour actually belongs to a different car, I support it being changed.
 * Then I should explain further. That picture is Not a picture of the car under discussion. Am I wrong?
 * You are right, that image is irrelevant. Sorry, my research of the Voiturette types was incorrect. Here is the image I would like to add to the section: Type B
 * That would be fine if it replaced the image of the Cadillac (which I seem to remember was built for one of the executives for his own use) and was not a production model). The article about the Renault claims this is the first of its kind, ever. I note that WP Fr. sees no need for any "proof" for their statement.
 * Am I right in thinking the image is there to show there were cars with rigid roofs long before sedans were called sedans? Eddaido (talk) 09:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the image is to show which car the text "There is a claim that the body of a particular 1899 Renault Voiturette Type B is the first vehicle considered to be a sedan[20][21]" is referring to. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 21:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

 * "There were also cars with sedan characteristics prior to the term itself being used." is a clearer explanation of the pre-1912 situation.
 * But doesn't every closed car have "sedan characteristics"? There seems to me to be no purpose in making this statement. So surely it should be scrapped.
 * Yes, that sentance probably just adds unnecessary confusion.
 * The conflict about the Speedwell is easier to understand if it is mentioned straight after the Studebaker text. Also, I don't see why the author of the source needs mentioning.
 * You or was it someone else have listed "other early cars . . . begins by naming a limousine! OK, that's a sedan with a division but why mention it!, same with the Renault (!!) and then a two-door saloon which I seem to remember you class as a coupé. Why are you muddying the water? Anyway I felt Georgano's opinion - he is oft quoted in Wiki articles about old cars - is important enough for him to be named. Placed where it is it kind of rounds up the muddied water bit. I find the muddy bit so puzzling I just left it in case there was a chance for an interpretation later which is, I suppose, now. Please may I know why those vehicles are mentioned. This muddying list is just as perplexing to me as the wish to include the Renault image
 * Someone else added them, I merely did some reference formatting. Thanks for your research about the limousine confusion, that makes a lot more sense now.

 * "The same American dictionary" is duplicating part of the Definition section. Also I see no reason to discuss the source itself instead of referring to it.
 * The second part is answered immediately above. Its no duplication with the second mention is it?
 * Regarding the naming of Georgano and the New Oxford dictionary, as per WP:INTEXT it can be misleading to use in-text attribution for facts that are not disputed or specific to the source. A historical definition would be useful for the etymology section, but I do not believe that a definition from a 2011 dictionary is relevant here. Yes, I now agree that the duplication isn't a big deal. So if you don't agree with using the source to state that sedan is a North American term, I think that moving the reference to the Definition section would be ok.
 * Also, I do not agree with the recent renaming of the section to "The name sedan". The section name should be Etymology, as this is the technical description which is used in many articles.
 * (a)Surely this is a fact under dispute, the text says so, that's what these few sentences are about. (b) see under 'the muddy section' below.
 * Please see the section below.

 * Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 10:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 12:01, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see my responses above. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Likewise and thanks, where I have misunderstood your intent please tell me, Eddaido (talk) 01:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Sorry for my delay responding, and thanks for not reverting my recent edit in the meantime. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 08:41, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

The clear as mud name derivation section
I see it has been there since 2010, put there by an ip. With a copy of the (very big) book beside me my guess is that the ip went and looked for any pictures of early closed cars and then, I think, made a fool of her/himself. A possible explanation is that the ip address is in Germany and the page numbers are well away from those in the copy I have and the editor may have been using a German translation of Georgano's book and — as we all now know most sedans are currently known as limousines in Germany. Trouble is these limousines are limousines and not sedans. If you look at the ip's previous edits to the same article you can get the impression that the editor was employing a not very wide or deep knowledge of the subject. Eddaido (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For simplicity I have copied and pasted from Oxford English Dictionary online through a link provided to members by my local library — ''Sedan, noun. "Etymology: Of obscure etymology.
 * The conjecture (? first in Johnson, 1773) connecting the word with the name of Sedan, a town of NE. France, has nothing to support it, and seems unlikely. In 1634 the exclusive right of supplying ‘covered chairs’ was granted to Sir Sanders Duncombe; the word sedan does not occur in the grant, but the index to the patents of the year has ‘covered chairs (called sedans)’. The statement of Evelyn, that Duncombe brought the sedan from Naples may be correct, as the thing had long been in use in Italy (compare Italian seggietta in Florio, 1598). It is therefore natural to suppose that the word might be from some South Italian derivative of Italian sede (Latin sēdēs) seat, sedere to sit; but there seems to be no trustworthy evidence of the existence in Italian dialects of any form from which the English word could be derived."''

 * New Oxford American Dictionary (3 ed.) provided by WP Oxford Dictionaries Online  "– origin perhaps an alteration of an Italian dialect word, based on Latin sella '‘ saddle’ ', from sedere '‘ sit’ '.

 * These statements attempt to provide an authoritative etymology for the word sedan but agree they cannot. We can't call our WP paragraph by the same name. Maybe an attempted etymology? So, why not just the best explanation we can find of how this name came to be used for a particular type of body for a car?

Eddaido (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I agree that the etymology is unclear/disputed. However it is the topic of the section, so I think the section should be named as such, regardless of whether there is a definitive conclusion or not. Thanks for sharing your research above. Those definitions would be helpful in expanding this section. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 08:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I don't agree. Please redraft the section if you wish and then we can discuss the matter further. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 09:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, there might be a misunderstanding about my previous reply. It is purely about the name of the section. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 21:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I've made some changes to that section and I'd be pleased to hear your thoughts of them. Eddaido (talk) 03:16, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Thanks for letting me know. I've made some follow-up changes: - Moving the dictionary definition to flow into the discussion about why the Speedwell is the first sedan - Removing "unsubtanciated" claims from the Renault statement, which is clearly referenced There are also several wording changes, which are not intended to change any meanings. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 04:10, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

OK, I'll have a look later. Eddaido (talk) 07:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Move
Move this to sedan (car). Car is used far more than automobile and is the page Car, not "automobile". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:3FB0:300:BC36:37BA:1D93:59CB (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

US (and to a lesser extent UK) centric article
I have added a globalisation template as at present this article primarily covers the history of these types of cars in the US with a small amount of information about the UK and a couple of other wealthy, mostly Anglophone nations added in. Given the ongoing greater popularity of saloon cars in non-Anglophone markets this seems especially relevant. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

"Sedan(car)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Sedan(car) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 6 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Sedan in German
In Germany a Sedan normaly called a "Stufenheck" means directly translatet step-back or stage-back. But in official vehicle papers a sedan always named as Limosine. In colloquial a Limousine is more a big sedan or stretch limosine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.216.207.15 (talk) 09:25, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sedan (automobile)


text:
Feeding tube

A feeding tube is a medical device used to provide nutrition to people who cannot obtain nutrition by mouth, are unable to swallow safely, or need nutritional supplementation. The state of being fed by a feeding tube is called gavage, enteral feeding or tube feeding. Placement may be temporary for the treatment of acute conditions or lifelong in the case of chronic disabilities. A variety of feeding tubes are used in medical practice. They are usually made of polyurethane or silicone. The outer diameter of a feeding tube is measured in French units (each French unit equals $1/3$ mm). They are classified by the site of insertion and intended use.

Medical uses
There are dozens of conditions that may require tube feeding (enteral nutrition) to prevent or treat malnutrition. Conditions that necessitate feeding tubes include prematurity, failure to thrive (or malnutrition), neurologic and neuromuscular disorders, inability to swallow, anatomical and post-surgical malformations of the mouth and esophagus, cancer, Sanfilippo syndrome, and digestive disorders.

Children
Feeding tubes are used widely in children with excellent success for a wide variety of conditions. Some children use them temporarily until they are able to eat on their own, while other children require them for a longer time. Some children only use feeding tubes to supplement their oral diet, while others rely on them exclusively.

Dementia
People with advanced dementia who get feeding assistance rather than feeding tubes have better outcomes. Feeding tubes do not increase life expectancy for such people, or protect them from aspiration pneumonia. Feeding tubes can also increase the risk of pressure ulcers, require pharmacological or physical restraints, and lead to distress. In the final stages of dementia, assisted feeding may still be preferred over a feeding tube to bring benefits of palliative care and human interaction even when nutritional goals are not being met.

ICU
Feeding tubes are often used in the intensive care unit (ICU) to provide nutrition to people who are critically ill while their medical conditions are addressed; as of 2016 there was no consensus as to whether nasogastric or gastric tubes led to better outcomes.

Mechanical obstruction and dysmotility
There is at least moderate evidence for feeding tubes improving outcomes for chronic malnutrition in people with cancers of the head and neck that obstruct the esophagus and would limit oral intake, people with advanced gastroparesis, and ALS. For long term use, gastric tubes appear to have better outcomes than nasogastric tubes.

GI surgery
People who have surgery on their throat or stomach often have a feeding tube while recovering from surgery; a tube leading through the nose and down to the middle part of the small intestine is used, or a tube is directly placed through the abdomen to the small intestine. There is some evidence to suggest that people with a tube through the nose were able to start eating normally sooner.

Product types
Medical nutrition companies make flavored products for drinking and unflavored for tube feeding. In the USA these are regulated as medical foods, which are defined in section 5(b) of the Orphan Drug Act (21 U.S.C. 360ee (b) (3)) as "a food which is formulated to be consumed or administered enterally under the supervision of a physician and which is intended for the specific dietary management of a disease or condition for which distinctive nutritional requirements, based on recognized scientific principles, are established by medical evaluation."

Types
The most common types of tubes include those placed through the nose, including nasogastric, nasoduodenal, and nasojejunal tubes, and those placed directly into the abdomen, such as a gastrostomy, gastrojejunostomy, or jejunostomy feeding tube.

Nasogastric feeding tube

A nasogastric feeding tube or NG-tube is passed through the nares (nostril), down the esophagus and into the stomach. This type of feeding tube is generally used for short term feeding, usually less than a month, though some infants and children may use an NG-tube longterm. Individuals who need tube feeding for a longer period of time are typically transitioned to a more permanent gastric feeding tube. The primary advantage of the NG-tube is that it is temporary and relatively non-invasive to place, meaning it can be removed or replaced at any time without surgery. NG-tubes can have complications, particularly related to accidental removal of the tube and nasal irritation. More specifically, when nasogastric or nasoenteric tubes are placed incorrectly, they can damage patients' vocal cords, lungs, or trachea, resulting in serious injuries or even death.

In March 2022, Avanos Medical's Cortrak2 EAS recall, for instance, has been classified as a Class I recall by the FDA, following reports of injuries and patient deaths caused by misplaced nasoenteric or nasogastric tubes.

Nasojejunal feeding tube
A nasojejunal or NJ-tube is similar to an NG-tube except that it is threaded through the stomach and into the jejunum, the middle section of the small intestine. In some cases, a nasoduodenal or ND-tube may be placed into the duodenum, the first part of the small intestine. These types of tube are used for individuals who are unable to tolerate feeding into the stomach, due to dysfunction of the stomach, impaired gastric motility, severe reflux or vomiting. These types of tubes must be placed in a hospital setting.

Gastrostomy or gastric feeding tube
A gastric feeding tube (G-tube or "button") is a tube inserted through a small incision in the abdomen into the stomach and is used for long-term enteral nutrition. One type is the percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy (PEG) tube which is placed endoscopically. The position of the endoscope can be visualized on the outside of the person's abdomen because it contains a powerful light source. A needle is inserted through the abdomen, visualized within the stomach by the endoscope, and a suture passed through the needle is grasped by the endoscope and pulled up through the esophagus. The suture is then tied to the end of the PEG tube that will be external, and pulled back down through the esophagus, stomach, and out through the abdominal wall. The insertion takes about 20 minutes. The tube is kept within the stomach either by a balloon on its tip (which can be deflated) or by a retention dome which is wider than the tract of the tube. G-tubes may also be placed surgically, using either an open or laparoscopic technique.

Gastric feeding tubes are suitable for long-term use, though they sometimes need to be replaced if used long-term. The G-tube can be useful where there is difficulty with swallowing because of neurologic or anatomic disorders (stroke, esophageal atresia, tracheoesophageal fistula, radiotherapy for head and neck cancer), and to decrease the risk of aspiration pneumonia. However, in people with advanced dementia or adult failure to thrive it does not decrease the risk of pneumonia. There is moderate quality evidence suggesting that the risk of aspiration pneumonia may be reduced by inserting the feeding tube into the duodenum or the jejunum (post-pyloric feeding), when compared to inserting the feeding tube into the stomach. People with dementia may attempt to remove the PEG, which causes complications.

Gastric drainage tube
A G-tube may instead be used for gastric drainage as a longer-term solution to the condition where blockage in the proximal small intestine causes bile and acid to accumulate in the stomach, typically leading to periodic vomiting, or if the vagus nerve is damaged. Where such conditions are only short term, as in a hospital setting, a nasal tube connected to suction is usually used. A blockage lower in the intestinal tract may be addressed with a surgical procedure known as a colostomy, and either type of blockage may be corrected with a bowel resection under appropriate circumstances. If such correction is not possible or practical, nutrition may be supplied by parenteral nutrition.

Gastrojejunal feeding tube
A gastrojejunostomy or GJ feeding tube is a combination device that includes access to both the stomach and the jejunum, or middle part of the small intestine. Typical tubes are placed in a G-tube site or stoma, with a narrower long tube continuing through the stomach and into the small intestine. The GJ-tube is used widely in individuals with severely impaired gastric motility, high risk of aspiration, or an inability to feed into the stomach. It allows the stomach to be continually vented or drained while simultaneously feeding into the small intestine. GJ-tubes are typically placed by an interventional radiologist in a hospital setting. The primary complication of a GJ-tube is migration of the long portion of the tube out of the intestine and back into the stomach.

Jejunal feeding tube
A jejunostomy feeding tube (J-tube) is a tube surgically or endoscopically inserted through the abdomen and into the jejunum (the second part of the small intestine).

Complications
Nasogastric and nasojejeunal tubes are meant to convey liquid food to the stomach or intestines. When inserted incorrectly, the tip may rest in the respiratory system instead of the stomach or intestines; in this case, the liquid food will enter the lungs, resulting in pneumonia and can, in rare cases, lead to death.

Complications associated with gastrostomy tubes (inserted through the abdomen and into the stomach or intestines) include leakage of gastric contents (containing hydrochloric acid) around the tube into the abdominal (peritoneal) cavity resulting in peritonitis, a serious complication which will cause death if it is not properly treated. Septic shock is another possible complication. Minor leakage may cause irritation of the skin around the gastrostomy site or stoma. Barrier creams, to protect the skin from the corrosive acid, are used to manage this.

A phenomenon called "tube dependency" has been discussed in the medical literature, in which a child refuses to eat after being on a feeding tube, but it is not recognized as a disorder in the ICD or DSM and its epidemiology is unknown.

Oral and dental complications
Guidelines for dental care for children fed by tube are poorly established. Many dental complications arise due to poor oral health that may result from reluctance or intolerance towards oral hygiene practices by patients and caregivers, abundance of dental plaque and/or tooth decay, and lack of oral simulation. Although many studies on this topic involve a relatively small sample size, the findings are important as they are associated with the development of various oral conditions, dental diseases and even systemic diseases such as aspiration pneumonia.

Calculus
Adults fed by tube have previously shown a significantly higher rate and quantity of calculus deposition than adults fed orally. Even with an intensive oral hygiene program in place, adults fed by tube still demonstrate a greater quantity of supra-gingival calculus accumulation, which can be a risk factor for several oral diseases including periodontal diseases and aspiration pneumonia. Although calculus removal may be difficult for caregivers to perform and provide an unpleasant experience for patients with a feeding tube, the implications of calculus in the initiation of aspiration pneumonia make it clear that it poses a serious health risk. Research suggests that the best course of treatment for patients with a gastric tube is periodic professional cleaning, maintained with routine home use of a non-foaming anti-calculus dentifrice (toothpaste).

Caries
Dental caries is a localized disease in which susceptible tooth structure is broken down by bacteria that are able to ferment carbohydrates into acid. Although it has not been extensively studied, researchers speculate that individuals fed by tube may be less prone to the development of caries as they are not exposed to carbohydrates orally. Examination of dental plaque from tube-fed individuals found that it contained fewer caries-associated microorganisms (lactobacilli and streptococcus) and had reduced ability to produce acids, suggesting an overall weaker ability to cause caries. Further, studies with animal subjects found that tube-feeding was not associated with tooth decay, even when combined with reduced salivation. Thus, tube-feeding alone does not necessarily directly promote the development of caries.

Periodontal diseases
To date, no published studies have been conducted on periodontal disease indicators (including clinical attachment loss, pocket depth, or periodontal indices) among tube-fed individuals. However, since tube feeding is correlated with calculus build-up, which is known to be a risk factor in the development of periodontal diseases, further investigation is critical to determine what role tube-feeding might have in the development of periodontal disease.

Dental erosion
Dental erosion is the dissolution of the tooth's hard structures (enamel, dentin & cementum) by exposure to acids not caused by bacteria. In the case of individuals fed by gastric tube, acid may enter the oral cavity through reflux of gastric contents. Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD) affects up to 67% of children and young adults with central nervous system dysfunction, a condition which in itself is normally an indicator for tube feeding. The effects of gastric acid on the teeth may sometimes be masked or minimized by the abundance of calculus. Tube feeding may either resolve, exacerbate or introduce the issue of GERD in individuals.

Aspiration pneumonia
Individuals fed by tube are susceptible to aspiration through a multitude of factors. Firstly, undisturbed plaque is known to shift towards the type of bacteria (Gram-negative anaerobic) implicated in aspiration pneumonia. Additionally, tube-fed patients are commonly affected by gastroesophageal reflux and a breakdown in the airway protection reflex (breathing while swallowing). This results in the inadvertent inhalation of bacteria-containing gastric juices as they are re-swallowed, leading to the development of aspiration pneumonia.

Oral hypersensitivity
While a child undergoes a period of tube-feeding, there is a lack of oral stimulation that can lead to the development of oral hypersensitivity. This can complicate the delivery of dental care and serve as a barrier for the child's return to oral feeding. This can also lead to dysphagia (difficulty swallowing), muscle weakness and improper airway protection, resulting in longer periods of tube-feeding and increased risk of dental complications. A dentist may prescribe a "desensitization program", which involves routine stimulation of intra-oral and extra-oral structures, and encourage oral hygiene procedures to be performed at home.

History
While enemas were previously used for supplemental enteral nutrition, the practice of surgically inserting feeding tubes emerged in the mid to late 1800s. Initially, these procedures were largely unsuccessful, but they quickly improved with advancements in technique.

Originally, the nasogastric tube (NGT) was described by John Hunter in the 18th century as a combination of eelskin and whalebone. It was initially utilized to provide liquid nutrition to the ill.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Feeding tube


text:
GPS Exchange Format

GPX, or GPS Exchange Format, is an XML schema designed as a common GPS data format for software applications. It can be used to describe waypoints, tracks, and routes. It is an open format and can be used without the need to pay license fees. Location data (and optionally elevation, time, and other information) is stored in tags and can be interchanged between GPS devices and software. Common software applications for the data include viewing tracks projected onto various map sources, annotating maps, and geotagging photographs based on the time they were taken.

Data types
A GPX file's main components include waypoints, routes, and tracks:

 * A waypoint (wptType) consists of the WGS 84 (GPS) coordinates of a point and possibly other descriptive information.
 * A route (rteType) is an ordered list of routepoints (or waypoints representing a series of significant turn or stage points) leading to a destination. In general, a route is used to describe directions for a journey which someone wants to take at some point in the future.
 * A track (trkType) contains a series of waypoints what might also contain a timestamp. It is typically used to represent journeys which somebody has already completed or recorded.

In addition to the above, GPX files can also contain additional data. The minimum properties for a GPX file are latitude and longitude for every single point. Some vendors, such as Humminbird and Garmin, use extensions to the GPX format for recording street address, phone number, business category, air temperature, depth of water, and other parameters.

Units
Latitude and longitude are expressed in decimal degrees, and elevation in meters, both using the WGS 84 datum. Dates and times are expressed in Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) using ISO 8601 format.

Sample GPX document
The document below is a sample GPX file which contains three waypoints which correspond to the locations of the German, Swiss, and Austrian parliaments.

title: GPS Exchange Format


text:
Udo Dirkschneider

Udo Dirkschneider (born 6 April 1952) is a German singer who first rose to fame with the heavy metal band Accept. After leaving the band in 1987, he formed the band U.D.O., in which he has also enjoyed commercial success.

Biography
Former Accept and current U.D.O. lead singer Udo Dirkschneider has a long career spanning almost five decades that helped to shape German heavy metal. His unique and raspy voice approach and his taste for huge choruses made big part of Accept's appeal and made him one of the most recognizable characters in heavy metal history.

In November 2011, Dirkschneider's son Sven supported U.D.O. on a date in Germany and became a permanent member of his father's band in February 2015. On the same year, the band was temporary renamed as "Dirkschneider" and embarked in a long tour called "Back To The Roots" where the band only performed Accept songs.

In 2021, Udo along with his former Accept bandmates, guitarist Stefan Kaufmann and bassist Peter Baltes released new music under the name of "Dirkschneider and the Old Gang" that also features former U.D.O guitarist Matthias Dieth, drummer Svein Dirkschneider and singer Manuela Bibert, with the video of the song "Where The Angels Fly" surpassing a million of views on YouTube.

On 22 April 2022, Udo released an album of cover versions, entitled 'My Way', to mark his 70th birthday.

Live in Bulgaria 2020: Pandemic Survival Show 18 September 2020, Plovdiv, Bulgaria, Roman theatre of Philippopolis.

Duets
On his long career, Dirkschneider shared his vocals with a few artists, as in the cover of Steppenwolf's "Born to Be Wild" released in 1983 as B-side of "Break the Chain" single on Raven's All for One album. Dirkschneider is also famous for his duet with his longtime friend Doro Pesch on the song "Dancing with an Angel". In 1999, Dirkschneider recorded the Helloween song "I Want Out" and a new version of Accept's "Head Over Heels" with HammerFall. And as guest on the song music "Shtil" by the Russian heavy metal band Aria on their 2001's album Chimera.

In 2006, Dirkschneider sang the song "They Only Come Out at Night" with Mr. Lordi on Lordi album The Arockalypse, as well as performing it live on stage at same year Wacken Open Air.

In 2013, Dirkschneider performed a duet with Marko Hietala on Finnish band Lazy Bonez's debut album Vol.1. They sang a song called "First to Go – Last to Know".

Studio albums

 * Accept (1979)
 * I'm a Rebel (1980)
 * Breaker (1981)
 * Restless and Wild (1982)
 * Balls to the Wall (1983)
 * Metal Heart (1985)
 * Russian Roulette (1986)
 * Objection Overruled (1993)
 * Death Row (1994)
 * Predator (1996)

Live albums

 * Staying a Life (Live recording from 1985, released 1990)
 * All Areas – Worldwide (Live from 1994 and 1995, released 1997)

EPs

 * Kaizoku-Ban (Live EP, 1985)
 * Rich & Famous (EP, 2002)

Studio albums

 * Animal House (1987)
 * Mean Machine (1989)
 * Faceless World (1990)
 * Timebomb (1991)
 * Solid (1997)
 * No Limits (1998)
 * Holy (1999)
 * Man and Machine (2002)
 * Thunderball (2004)
 * Mission No. X (2005)
 * Mastercutor (2007)
 * Dominator (2009)
 * Rev-Raptor (2011)
 * Steelhammer (2013)
 * Decadent (2015)
 * Steelfactory (2018)
 * We Are One (2020) (with Das Musikkorps Der Bundeswehr)
 * Game Over (2021)
 * My Way (2022) (Cover Album, released as solo record)
 * Touchdown (2023)

Live albums

 * Live from Russia (2001)
 * Nailed to Metal – The Missing Tracks (2003)
 * Mastercutor Alive (2008)
 * Live in Sofia (2011)
 * Steelhammer - Live from Moscow (2014)
 * Live – Back to the Roots (2016) (as Dirkschneider)
 * Live – Back to the Roots – Accepted! (Live in Brno) (2017) (as Dirkschneider)

Compilation albums

 * Best Of (1999)
 * Metallized (2007)
 * Celebrator (2012)

Singles/EPs

 * They Want War (1988)
 * Heart of Gold (1990)
 * Faceless World (1990)
 * Two Faced Woman (1997)
 * Independence Day (1997)
 * Lovemachine (1998)
 * Dancing with an Angel (2002)
 * 24/7 EP (2005)
 * The Wrong Side of Midnight EP (2007)
 * Infected EP (2009)
 * Leatherhead EP (2011)
 * Steelhammer (2013)
 * Decadent (2014)
 * Arising (2021) (as Dirkschneider & The Old Gang)

Music Videos

 * They Want War (1988)
 * Break the Rules (1989)
 * Heart of Gold (1990)
 * Independence Day (1997)
 * Dancing with an Angel (with Doro Pesch) (2002)
 * Thunderball (2004)
 * Blind Eyes (2004)
 * The Arbiter (2004)
 * Trainride to Russia (2004)
 * Mean Streets (2005)
 * The Wrong Side of Midnight (2007)
 * Black and White (2009)
 * Leatherhead (2011)
 * I Give As Good As I Get (2011)
 * Metal Machine (2013)
 * Heavy Rain (2013)
 * Decadent (2014)

DVDs

 * Nailed to Metal – The Complete History (2003)
 * Thundervision (2004)
 * Mastercutor Alive (2008)
 * Live in Sofia (2012)
 * Steelhammer – Live from Moscow (2014)
 * Navy Metal Night (2015) "Special Show with Orchestra"
 * Pandemic Survival Show (2020) Plovdiv

Guest appearances

 * Raven
 * All for One (1983), song "Break The Chain"
 * Alex Parche Project
 * Son Of A Healer (1993), song "Gate Patrol"
 * HammerFall
 * Masterpieces (2008), Helloween's song "I Want Out" and Accept's song "Head Over Heels"
 * Lazy Bonez
 * Vol.1 (2013), song "First to Go - Last to Know", duet with Marco Hietala

title: Udo Dirkschneider


text:
Moisie River

The Moisie River is a river in eastern Quebec. Known as the Nahanni of the East, it is a wild river of North America.

It has been proposed to protect the river with the Moisie River Aquatic Reserve.

Course
The Moisie River basin lies between the basins of the Rapides River to the west and the Matamec River to the east. It covers an area of 19273 km2. The Moisie flows south from Lake Opocopa near the Labrador border to the north shore of the Saint Lawrence River east of Sept-Îles, Quebec. The town of Moisie is located at its mouth. The river is 410 km in length, which is calculated from the most commonly-used starting point of canoe trips, bridge of highway 389 over Pékans River (at 52.73005°N, -67.41314°W ) is 373 km.

Moisie tributaries include:
 * Aux Pékans River
 * Carheil River (via Pékans)
 * Nipissis River
 * Caopacho River
 * Ouapetec River
 * Joseph River

Name
The origin of the name are unknown, but researchers have speculated that the river might have been named after an explorer or a settler since Moisy is a rather common surname in France. That is largely contested since there seems to be no proof of anyone with that name in the archives. Another popular theory is that it come from the Old French word moise or moyse, meaning "wet river bank."

The Mishta-shipiunnu ("Innu from the Moisie River") call it Mishta-shipu ("Great River"; mishau - ″big, great″ and shipu - ″river"). Like for thousands of years, they continue to use the river to reach their northern hunting and fishing grounds. Large parts of the river were also protected by private fishing clubs.

There were recent attempts to develop hydroelectric projects on the Moisie. However, in 2003, the Quebec government protected a large part of the river's watershed as an aquatic reserve and has prevented activities such as logging, mining, and power projects, but has permitted traditional uses such as hunting and fly-fishing.

Environment
A map of the Ecological regions of Quebec shows the river's tributary, the Rivière aux Pékans, rising to the northwest of Fermont just west of the Spruce/lichen domain of the boreal zone, and flowing south through the eastern spruce/moss domain. The last section of the Moisie River flows through the fir/white birch domain of the boreal zone.

The river is the most important spawning ground for the Atlantic salmon in eastern North America.

Usage
The Moisie River is popular with experienced canoeists concerning its whitewater. It flows through a deep valley of glacial origin. The width of the valley varies considerably. At the spout of the river, the valley is very narrow, but it is wider in areas that are not obstructed by rapids.

The views of mountains and cliffs have caused the river to be used for canoe camping. The Quebec North Shore & Labrador Railway follows the lower section of the Moisie River and provides access to the Quebec-Labrador plateau from which canoeists can reach its headwaters.

The river's remoteness makes it have very few access points, and if an accident occurs involving a canoeist, the most common form of evacuation is by seaplane. Still, because of the narrow valley, some canoeists travel many kilometres to reach a spot for a plane to land. The railway crosses the river at the last whitewater rapid on the river, which is also the largest and the most well known. The rapids have been called train tracks because of their close proximity to the railway.

A forest fire in the summer of 2014 destroyed a lot of the ecosystem surrounding the river and made it unsafe for campers and canoeists to explore and venture.

The river is very remote and has very few inhabitants, with few cabins along the river.

title: Moisie River


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Talk:UEFA Euro 2004 squads

Change to Germany squad
Source for Ziege replacing Rahn in germany 2004 squad Calexico (Talk) 11:48, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:UEFA Euro 2004 squads


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Restenosis

Restenosis is the recurrence of stenosis, a narrowing of a blood vessel, leading to restricted blood flow. Restenosis usually pertains to an artery or other large blood vessel that has become narrowed, received treatment to clear the blockage, and subsequently become re-narrowed. This is usually restenosis of an artery, or other blood vessel, or possibly a vessel within an organ.

Restenosis is a common adverse event of endovascular procedures. Procedures frequently used to treat vascular damage from atherosclerosis and related narrowing and re-narrowing (restenosis) of blood vessels include vascular surgery, cardiac surgery, and angioplasty.

When a stent is used and restenosis occurs, this is called in-stent restenosis or ISR. If it occurs following balloon angioplasty, this is called post-angioplasty restenosis or PARS. The diagnostic threshold for restenosis in both ISR and PARS is ≥50% stenosis.

If restenosis occurs after a procedure, follow-up imaging is not the only way to initially detect compromised blood flow. Symptoms may also suggest or signal restenosis, but this should be confirmed by imaging. For instance, a coronary stent patient who develops restenosis may experience recurrent chest pain (angina) or have a minor or major heart attack (myocardial infarction), though they may not report it. This is why it is important that a patient comply with follow-up screenings and the clinician follows through with a thorough clinical assessment. But it is also important to note that not all cases of restenosis lead to clinical symptoms, nor are they asymptomatic.

Causes
Surgery to widen or unblock a blood vessel usually has a long-lasting beneficial effect on the patient. However, in some cases, the procedure itself can cause further narrowing of the vessel, or restenosis. Angioplasty, also called percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty (PTCA), is commonly used to treat blockages of the coronary or peripheral arteries (such as in the limbs). The balloon inserted into the narrowing 'smashes' the cholesterol plaques (atherosclerosis) against the artery walls, thus widening the size of the lumen and increasing blood flow. However the action damages the artery walls, and they respond by using physiological mechanisms to repair the damage. (See physiology below.)

A stent is a mesh, tube-like structure often used in conjunction with angioplasty to permanently hold open an artery, allowing for unrestricted blood flow, or to support a weakness in the artery wall called an aneurysm. The artery can react to the stent, perceive it as a foreign body, and respond by mounting an immune system response which leads to further narrowing near or inside the stent.

Physiology
Damage to the blood vessel wall by angioplasty triggers a physiological response that can be divided into two stages. The first stage that occurs immediately after tissue trauma, is thrombosis. A blood clot forms at the site of damage and further hinders blood flow. This is accompanied by an inflammatory immune response.

The second stage tends to occur 3–6 months after surgery and is the result of the proliferation of cells in the media, a smooth muscle wall in the vessel. This is also known as Neointimal Hyperplasia (NIHA).

Imaging
Vessel restenosis is typically detected by angiography, but can also be detected by duplex ultrasound and other imaging techniques.

As "late loss"
Late loss is synonymous with restenosis and means loss of the lumen after a procedure intended to open the vessel. It measures either the percent (relative) or absolute change in minimum luminal diameter (MLD) over the months following a vascular procedure, such as the implantation of a stent graft. Late loss is one metric that is useful in determining the effectiveness of vascular interventions in clinical trials for either an individual patient or a group of patients.

However late loss is only part of the terminology in describing the outcomes of vascular interventions. For instance, the implantation of a stent graft will first provide an acute gain in lumen diameter. In other words, there is an immediate gain in lumen size because the implanted stent opens up the vessel. However, over time, the body's inflammatory immune response (described below in the "Causes" section) reacts to the stent graft via smooth muscle proliferation, etc., which pushes the stent graft back, narrowing the vessel and losing at least a percentage of what was previously gained, or late loss.

The net gain of lumen diameter is the difference between acute gain and late loss and is a measure of stent-graft effectiveness.

Percent diameter restenosis
Percent diameter restenosis (or just percent diameter stenosis) is a measure observed in individual patients and is typically calculated as the difference between the minimal (or minimum) luminal diameter (MLD) from the target reference vessel diameter (RVD), divided by the RVD, and multiplied by 100 to get the percentage of stenosis. It is an important measure needed to calculate binary restenosis (see Binary Restenosis section below). The RVD is typically calculated by averaging the MLD of the healthy part of the vessel both proximal and distal to the vessel lesion.

There is some controversy over the accuracy of observing the lesion MLD itself, since many atherosclerotic lesions may create uneven "hills and valleys" within the lumen, making a true MLD difficult to obtain or estimate. Some research indicates calculating "area stenosis" is also a valid measure of actual vessel stenosis compared to diameter stenosis alone, but this requires additional analysis because a tracing of the lumen border must be performed. However, there are computer programs available to automatically perform this function. It may be helpful to obtain both percent diameter and area percent stenosis, especially since the two percentages may not always correlate with each other.

An occlusion, or the blocking of all blood flow through a vessel, is considered 100% percent diameter stenosis.

Binary restenosis
Binary restenosis is traditionally defined as a reduction in the percent diameter stenosis of 50% or more (≥50%). It is also known as just "binary stenosis". The term "binary" means that patients are placed in 2 groups, those who have ≥50% stenosis and those who have <50% stenosis. Binary restenosis is an epidemiological method of analyzing percent diameter stenosis for observing not only an individual patient, but also performing statistical techniques on a group of patients to determine averages (descriptive measures of central tendency) or as a predictive variable.

Prevention
In the first stage of restenosis, administering anti-platelet drugs (called IIb/IIIa inhibitors) immediately after surgery greatly reduces the chance of a thrombosis occurring.

Drug-eluting stents, coated with pharmaceuticals that inhibit tissue growth and thus reduce the risk of restenosis from scar tissue and cell proliferation, are now widely used. These stents reduce the occurrence of restenosis, with clinical studies showing an incidence rate of 5% or lower.

Treatment
If restenosis occurs without a stent, it is usually treated with more angioplasty. This treatment is also used if restenosis occurs at either the proximal or distal end of the stent.

If restenosis occurs within a stent (also known as in-stent stenosis), it may be treated with repeated angioplasty and insertion of another stent inside the original, often with a drug-eluting stent.

Over the past 5 years, ISR has been increasingly treated with a drug-coated balloon (DCB), which is a balloon coated with the same anti-cancer drugs that prevent restenosis, such as Paclitaxel. The balloon avoids the need for a double layer of metal which is used when an in-stent restenosis is treated with another stent within the original stent. Additionally, DCB treatment does not leave an implant in the body and is designed for faster drug delivery.

Alternative treatments include brachytherapy, or intracoronary radiation. The radiation kills cells and inhibits tissue growth (similar to a patient undergoing cancer therapy).

Incidence
Rates of restenosis differ between devices (e.g., stent-grafts, balloon angioplasty, etc.) and location of procedure (i.e., centrally located in the heart, such as the coronary artery, or in peripheral vessels such as the popliteal artery in the leg, the pudendal artery in the pelvis, or the carotid artery in the neck).

Rates in cardiac procedures
In cardiac procedures, balloon angioplasty without stent implantation has been associated with a high incidence of restenosis, with rates ranging from 25% to 50%, and the majority of these patients need further angioplasty within 6 months.

A 2010 study in India comparing coronary drug-eluting stents (DES) with coronary bare-metal stents (BMS) reported that restenosis developed in 23.1% of DES patients vs 48.8% in BMS patients, and female sex was found to be a statistically significant risk factor for developing restenosis.

However, in newer-generation DES and BMS the restenosis rates are much lower. For example, the NORSTENT trial, presented in 2016, reports target-lesion revascularization rates of 5.3% and 10.3% for DES and BMS respectively.

Rates in peripheral procedures
In peripheral procedures, rates are still high. A 2003 study of selective and systematic stenting for limb-threatening ischemia reported restenosis rates at 1year follow-up in 32.3% of selective stenting patients and 34.7% of systematic stenting patients.

The 2006 SIROCCO trial compared the sirolimus drug-eluting stent with a bare nitinol stent for atherosclerotic lesions of the subsartorial artery, reporting restenosis at 2 year follow-up was 22.9% and 21.1%, respectively.

A 2009 study compared bare nitinol stents with percutaneous transluminal angioplasty (PTA) in subsartorial artery disease. At 1 year follow-up, restenosis was reported in 34.4% of stented patients versus 61.1% of PTA patients.

title: Restenosis


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Momart

Momart is a British company specialising in the storage, transportation, and installation of works of art. A major proportion of their business is maintaining often delicate artworks in a secure, climate-controlled environment. The company maintains specialist warehouse facilities adapted for this task. Momart's clients include the Royal Academy of Arts, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the National Gallery, Tate Modern, Tate Britain and Buckingham Palace. The company received considerable media attention in 2004 when a fire spread to one of their warehouses from an adjacent unit, destroying the works in it, including works by Young British Artists such as Tracey Emin and Damien Hirst, including Emin's 1995 piece Everyone I Have Ever Slept With 1963–1995. On 5 March 2008 Momart was taken over by Falkland Islands Holdings for £10.3 million, of which £4.6 million was in cash, £2.5 million was in shares and £3.2 million was deferred consideration.

History
Momart began in 1971 as the "Jim Moyes's Compendium of Working Possibilities", with its founder, himself an artist, offering installation, display, handling, transport and framing services to up an coming artists and emergent galleries in London. Early users of the service included David Hockney, Howard Hodgkin and Francis Bacon. The client base quickly grew by word of mouth in recognition of the service levels being offered and in September 1972 the company was registered as Momart Limited – an amalgam of Jim Moyes and new partner Rees Martin. Rees subsequently left the business but the brand was becoming well established so the name remained.

Early days
The company set up its first office on Richmond Road, Hackney in East London and continued to grow organically – moving art, painting gallery walls, making frames and cases, hanging paintings, slinging sculpture and providing art storage. By 1985 Momart had gained a solid reputation amongst the commercial galleries and artists and started to introduce its credentials to the public sector such as the Victoria & Albert Museum, the National Gallery, Tate, Royal Academy and other UK based art institutions.

In 1985, Momart commissioned the UK's first fine art vehicle with temperature control and air ride suspension and carried out its first museum job on behalf of the Royal Academy – a Henry Moore exhibition. Momart was by then able to undertake all of the transport handling requirements completely in-house, including making site visits to the individual lenders where required, case making, transport of the empty cases to the lenders, pack on site and delivery of the case loan to the borrower.

Research and development
From 1988 Momart expanded the services to include the international movement of artworks on behalf of both commercial and museum clients overseas. This prompted close analysis and investigation of the various case making options and specifications and in 1991, in collaboration with Tate, the company assisted with the development and the standard specification for museum cases for touring exhibitions and for sending artworks worldwide. This was then presented at the Art in Transit Conference in Washington DC.

Royal warrant
Momart's client base continued to expand. In the late 1980s the company started working for the Royal Collection and, in 1993, in recognition of the high quality of service provided by Momart, Queen Elizabeth II appointed Momart as a Royal warrant holder.

New storage facilities
In 2003 Momart invested in new premises in Leyton, with a new plant and equipment and room for expansion. This included a new state-of-the-art workshop, storage facilities and transport office with Hackney remaining as the office base for the project coordination, administration and some satellite warehousing. This investment improved efficiency and capacity for increased storage business. In the same year Momart was granted Listed Agent status with the Department for Transport (DfT) allowing certified Momart employees to carry out hand search procedures on client artworks to avoid the need for X-raying at the airport of departure.

Falkland Islands Holdings
In 2008 Momart was acquired by Falkland Islands Holdings (FIH), an international services group that owns services businesses focused on transport and logistics. Following the acquisition, Momart's key management and staff has continued to work within the group to drive the company's continued expansion, particularly in rapidly growing overseas markets. In that same year Momart's administrative offices were moved from Hackney to Whitechapel from where the company operated all of the administration, coordination, shipping, finance, and IT services.

Customs procedures
In 2009 HMRC granted Momart the then-unique privilege amongst fine art transport companies to undertake all of its customs procedures in-house. In 2011, Momart was certified as an Authorised Economic Operator (AEO), enabling the company to simplify customs bureaucracy and speed up passage within the EU for their clients.

New premises
In 2013 the company relocated its head office to South Quay, East London where it currently resides. In 2016 Momart expanded its storage facilities in Leyton, East London, with a new purpose-built unit providing additional 2,500 m2 of specialist art storage space.

ARTIM
In 2001 Momart and five other international fine art transport agents founded the professional association ARTIM, whose members monitor each other's service levels both professionally and financially. ARTIM comprises the leading fine art agents worldwide who have the highest standards of service. Agents wishing to join ARTIM have to be voted in with a majority vote by the Founders' Committee before becoming members.

2004 warehouse fire
In the early hours of 24 May 2004 a fire broke out at the Cromwell industrial estate in Leyton, east London. According to the fire investigation report, the flames that caught between 1.45 am and 3.15 am that morning were started deliberately, after burglars broke into a unit located at the extreme south-western corner of the estate and leased to an individual business repairing consumer electronics.

The fire spread through the adjoining units at the estate, eventually reaching and destroying a warehouse then operated by Momart. The blaze destroyed more than 100 works by some of Britain's leading contemporary artists including Tracey Emin, Damien Hirst, Sarah Lucas, Gary Hume, Jake and Dinos Chapman, Helen Chadwick and others. Many of those works were owned by Charles Saatchi, the country's biggest collector of modern art.

Art industry insiders noted at the time that the insurance value of the works lost in the fire would be many times their initial purchase price, and that a comparable rise could be expected in the market values of the remaining and future works by artists whose works were lost. The total value of artworks lost was estimated at between £30 and £50 million.

A number of artists, in a joint action with several insurance firms, alleged negligence and pursued a legal case against Momart. The case was settled out of court in a mediated agreement for an undisclosed fee, reported to be in the order of "tens of millions of pounds".

Momart Christmas card series
The tradition of the Christmas card goes back to 1984 when the first object – a festive card – was designed for the company by Bruce McLean. Since then Momart collaborated on this project with many of the top British and international artists. The complete series of Momart Christmas card is now part of the permanent collections of the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Tate.

The artists represented in past Christmas cards are:
 * 1984 — Bruce McLean
 * 1985 — Richard Wentworth
 * 1986 — David Inshaw
 * 1987 — Tim Head
 * 1988 — Gillian Ayres
 * 1989 — Barry Flanagan
 * 1990 — Bill Woodrow
 * 1991 — Eduardo Paolozzi
 * 1992 — Helen Chadwick
 * 1993 — Anthony Caro
 * 1994 — Paula Rego
 * 1995 — Peter Blake
 * 1996 — Richard Deacon
 * 1997 — Damien Hirst
 * 1998 — Langlands & Bell
 * 1999 — Tracey Emin
 * 2000 — Gary Hume
 * 2001 — Mark Wallinger
 * 2002 — Howard Hodgkin
 * 2003 — Lucian Freud
 * 2004 — Paul McDevitt
 * 2005 — David Hockney
 * 2006 — Ron Mueck
 * 2007 — Sarah Lucas
 * 2008 — Richard Hughes
 * 2009 — Catherine Yass
 * 2010 — Joel Peers & Toby Ziegler
 * 2011 — Gavin Turk
 * 2013 — Glenn Brown
 * 2014 — Patrick Hughes
 * 2015 — Clare Woods
 * 2016 — Paul Fryer
 * 2017 — Des Hughes
 * 2018 — Conrad Shawcross
 * 2019 — Idris Khan
 * 2020 — Phlegm

title: Momart