text:
Congregation of Holy Cross

The Congregation of Holy Cross (Congregatio a Sancta Cruce), abbreviated CSC, is a Catholic clerical religious congregation of pontifical right for men founded in 1837 by Basil Moreau, in Le Mans, France.

Moreau also founded the Marianites of Holy Cross for women, now divided into three independent congregations of sisters: the Marianites of Holy Cross (Le Mans, France), the Sisters of the Holy Cross (Notre Dame, Indiana), and the Sisters of Holy Cross (Montreal, Quebec, Canada).

Two Societies
Basile Antoine-Marie Moreau was born at Laigné-en-Belin, near Le Mans, France, on February 11, 1799, in the final months of the French Revolution. When Moreau decided to enter the priesthood, he was forced to undergo his seminary training in secret for fear that the French government would arrest him. He completed his studies and was ordained for the Diocese of Le Mans in 1821. The French government continued to work for the removal of the Church from the educational system, which left many Catholics without a place to be educated or catechized. In 1835, Moreau had formed a group, which he called "Auxiliary Priests", to serve the educational and evangelization needs of the Diocese of Le Mans.

On July 15, 1820, a priest of the Diocese of Le Mans, Jacques-Francois Dujarié, brought together a group of zealous men to serve the educational needs of the people in the French countryside. Fr. Dujarié named this group the Brothers of St. Joseph. By 1835 this group was well established in the diocese, but Dujarié was getting older and they were in need of a new leader. Dujarié and Moreau had met previously and discussed their views on the future of the Church in France and so Dujarié knew that Moreau was just the man he was looking for. With the consent of the bishop, Moreau was given control of the Brothers of St. Joseph on August 31, 1835. He was now the head of two organizations, the Auxiliary Priests and the Brothers of St. Joseph.

The Association of Holy Cross
In 1837, Moreau made the decision to combine his two communities into one society so that the priests and brothers could share resources and ministries in common. On March 1, 1837, the priests and brothers gathered in the church of Notre-Dame de Sainte-Croix, Le Mans in the Sainte-Croix district of Le Mans to sign the Fundamental Act of Union which legally joined them into one association. This new group took on the name of where they met and became the Association of Holy Cross. Initially Holy Cross was a diocesan group and so they primarily served in whatever capacity the bishop asked of them. In 1840 this changed when Moreau received a request to send a delegation from his society to Algeria with the purpose of establishing schools and a seminary. It was at this point that Moreau shifted the focus of Holy Cross and after the first missionaries left in April 1840 the association took on the identity of a religious institute. On August 15, 1840, Moreau and four others became the first professed religious in the Association of Holy Cross. As part of his plan to form this religious institute, Moreau also brought together the first group of women who would become the Marianites of Holy Cross.

In 1841 he sent a group to the United States, establishing the first Holy Cross institution in North America at Notre Dame, Indiana. The institute expanded further by establishing missions in Canada in 1847 and in East Bengal in 1852.

This association of priests, brothers, and sisters, would continue in roughly the same form until May 13, 1857, when Pope Pius IX approved the first constitutions of the priests and brothers. From that point on the Association officially became the Congregation of Holy Cross. Doubting the propriety of a mixed congregation of men and women, Rome separated the women into an independent community at that time. Moreau, in his role as their founder, continued to work for Rome's approval of the sisters' constitution. In 1865, Rome approved the constitutions of the Marianites of Holy Cross, granting them the status of an Apostolic congregation.

Holy Cross and The Holy Family

Moreau saw a visible image of the Holy Family in this Congregation of Holy Cross which he had conceived as an association of religious men and women working together on equal footing for the building of the reign of God. He intended that this Congregation, composed at its origins of three distinct Societies, namely, Sisters, Priests, and Brothers, be an apostolic institute. Calling on the spiritual aid of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Moreau gave to each of the three groups a patron: he consecrated the priests to the Sacred Heart of Jesus; he consecrated the brothers to the pure heart of St. Joseph; and he consecrated the sisters to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He also established Mary, under her title of Our Lady of Sorrows, as special patroness for all of Holy Cross, whose members in their several congregations continue to cherish these devotions. As Moreau stated in one of his letters, he envisioned that: "Holy Cross will grow like a mighty tree and constantly shoot forth new limbs and new branches which will be nourished by the same sap and endowed with the same life."

Superiors General

 * 1) Fr. Basil Moreau, CSC (1837–1866)
 * 2) Most Rev. Pierre Dufal, CSC (1866–1868)
 * 3) Fr. Edward Sorin, CSC (1868–1893)
 * 4) Fr. Gilbert Francais, CSC (1893-1926?)
 * 5) Fr. James Wesley Donahue, CSC (1926–1938)
 * 6) Fr. Albert Cousineau, CSC (1938–1950)
 * 7) Fr. Christopher O'Toole, CSC (1950–1962)
 * 8) Fr. Germain-Marie Lalande, CSC (1962–1974)
 * 9) Fr. Tom Barrosse, CSC (1974–1986)
 * 10) Fr. Claude Grou, CSC (1986–1998)
 * 11) Fr. Hugh Cleary, CSC (1998–2010)
 * 12) Fr. Richard Warner, CSC (2010–2016)
 * 13) Fr. Robert Epping, CSC (2016–2022)
 * 14) Br. Paul Bednarczyk, CSC (2022–present)

Provinces, Districts, and Vicariates

 * United States Province of Priests and Brothers (USA)
 * District of Chile-Peru
 * Midwest Province of Brothers (USA)
 * Canadian Province of Priests and Brothers (Canada)
 * Moreau Province (USA)
 * District of Brazil
 * Province of East Africa
 * Province of West Africa
 * Sacred Heart of Jesus Province (Bangladesh)
 * St. Joseph Province (Bangladesh)
 * Our Lady of Perpetual Help Province (Haiti)
 * Province of North East India
 * South India Province
 * Province of Tamil Nadu (India)
 * St. Andre Province (India)
 * Mother Province (France)

Saints & Blesseds

 * Saint André Bessette, CSC, "Miracle Man of Montreal" & the institute's first recognized Saint
 * Blessed Basil Moreau, CSC, Founder of the Congregation

Members of the Hierarchy

 * Bishop Arthur "Bud" Colgan, CSC, Auxiliary Bishop of Chosica (Peru), Titular Bishop of Ampora
 * Archbishop Patrick Cardinal D'Rozario, CSC, Archbishop of Dhaka, Bangladesh
 * Bishop George Joseph Finnigan, CSC, Third Bishop of the Diocese of Helena in the state of Montana.
 * Servant of God Archbishop Theotonius Amal Ganguly, CSC, second Archbishop of Dhaka
 * Bishop Daniel R. Jenky, CSC, Bishop of Peoria, IL
 * Bishop Jorge Izaguirre Rafael, CSC, Prelate of Chuquibamba, Peru
 * Servant of God Bishop Vincent J. McCauley, CSC, First Bishop of Fort Portal, Uganda
 * Archbishop Marcos G. McGrath, CSC, former Archbishop of Panamá (1969–1994)
 * Bishop Lumen Monteiro, CSC, First Bishop of Agartala
 * John Francis Cardinal O'Hara, CSC, President of Notre Dame (1934–1939) and Archbishop of Philadelphia (1951–1960)
 * Bishop Yves-Marie Péan, CSC., Bishop of Les Gonaïves, Haiti.
 * Bishop Stephen Rotluanga, CSC, Bishop of Aizawl
 * Archbishop Charles Asa Schleck, CSC, Titular Archbishop of Africa
 * Bishop William Albert Wack, CSC, Bishop of Diocese of Pensacola–Tallahassee
 * Bishop Paul E. Waldschmidt, CSC, President of the University of Portland (1962–1978) and Auxiliary Bishop of Portland (1978–1994)
 * Bishop Patrick Neary, CSC, Bishop of Roman Catholic Diocese of Saint Cloud

Others

 * Fr. Gerald Fitzgerald, s.P., founder of The Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete
 * Servant of God Br. Flavian LaPlante, CSC, Missionary
 * Fr. Julius Nieuwland, CSC, Professor and Inventor
 * Venerable Fr. Patrick Peyton, CSC, "The Rosary Priest"
 * Fr. John Zahm, CSC, Scientist and Explorer
 * Fr. Richard William Timm, CSC, Missionary, Educator, Zoologist, and Development Worker.

Location
Holy Cross Priests and Brothers can be found across the globe, including these countries (date of first appearance in parentheses):

 * France (1820)
 * United States (1841)
 * Chile (1943)
 * Haiti (1944)

 * Canada (1847)
 * Italy (1850)
 * Bangladesh (1853)
 * India (1853)

 * Ghana (1957)
 * Brazil (1958)
 * Uganda (1958)
 * Peru (1961)

 * Kenya (195–)
 * Liberia (1950s?)
 * Tanzania (2003)

The Mission of Holy Cross in Bangladesh
The first group of Holy Cross missionaries to reach India left England January 17, 1853. It was composed of three brothers, three sisters, one priest and one seminarian. (Two priests dropped out due to severe illness when the first attempt to sail in November 1852 failed due to storms.) The group arrived in Calcutta in May 1853. Fr. Verite took the sisters to Dhaka, while the brothers and seminarian went to Noakhali. Fr. Verite soon joined them as pastor of Noakhali, which included Agartala and Sylhet in its territory. Chittagong became the headquarters of Holy Cross in December 1853.

The East Bengal mission was called at the time, "unquestionably the most destitute in East Asia and perhaps in any other part of the world." Because it was such a difficult and dangerous place to live and work, no other religious congregation showed any interest in it. Though the mission was named East Bengal, the Church jurisdiction and the political territory or civil jurisdiction called East Bengal were quite different from each other. The Province of East Bengal was first created in 1905. The Church territory was officially called the Vicariate of East Bengal, set up in 1845 by the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith at the Vatican. Its first superior was Bishop Thomas Olliffe, an Irish Jesuit. The Vicariate of East Bengal embraced the present-day Archdiocese of Dhaka, Diocese of Mymensingh, and Diocese of Chittagong, as well as a large part of Assam, the Arakan district (former name of the Rakhine State of western Burma, and the Diocese of Agartala in eastern India. It was a huge area, but when Holy Cross arrived in 1853, there were only three priests working there - a Portuguese Augustinian and two young Irish diocesan priests, both of whom were dead of disease by 1854. There were about 13,000 Catholics in the area. In Dhaka, there was no church or chapel at all under the jurisdiction of Rome.

The Mission of Holy Cross in Chile
The District of Chile is the longest-running mission still overseen by the United States Province. Three Holy Cross religious arrived in Santiago, Chile, on March 1, 1943, at the invitation of Cardinal José María Caro, Archbishop of Santiago (Chile), to administer Saint George's College. Fathers William Havey, Alfred Send, and Joseph Dougherty believed they were going to do university work. Little did they know that "college" in this context meant a school of first through 12th graders.

Today, Saint George's College serves 2,650 students. Its history is rich and is closely tied with the history of Chile, including the 1970s when the school was taken over by the military government and Holy Cross was ousted. The Congregation returned to the school in 1986. Strong faith formation and service have been a hallmark of Saint George's. Over the decades, the college has formed many influential leaders in Chilean society. Also Holy Cross' first Chilean vocation, Fr. Jorge Canepa, was a 1946 graduate of the school.

Additionally, the District administers Colegio Nuestra Señora de Andacollo, located in the older sector of Central Santiago. The Congregation took responsibility for the school in the 1970s, after its expulsion from Saint George's. The student body, numbering 1,100, is made up primarily of children from working-class families. With improvements to the physical plant and the strong Holy Cross commitment, the school has been able to reach new heights academically.

From the beginning, the mission of Holy Cross in Chile also included parish ministry and social service. Within three years of arriving, the Congregation had begun both its ministry at San Roque, a parish in the sector of Penalolen in Santiago, as well as its outreach to abandoned children in Santiago and later in Talagante. Today, the District administers two parishes in addition to San Roque: Nuestra Señora de Andacollo, in the same area as the school; and Nuestra Señora de la Merced, in Calle Larga, in the Diocese of San Felipe. The parishes are known for their youth ministry and social justice work. Then through Fundamor and Fundación Moreau, the District continues its work with abandoned children. Currently there are approximately 50 children in residence, ages 4 to 18. There is also a new prevention program ministering to 100 children that has been recognized as the first of its kind in Chile.

The Mission of Holy Cross in Mexico
Initially the members of the Congregation of Holy Cross were sent to Mexico from Texas. In 1972, Fr. Frederick Schmidt, CSC, was sent to Mexico for a "sabbatical" by Fr. Christopher O'Toole, CSC, the Provincial of the Southern Province at the time. In 1973 Fr. Fred assumed the pastoral responsibility for a large parish in Ahuacatlan, San Luis Potosí, Nuestro Padre Jesús. He served as pastor for 25 years. In 1998 when Fr. Francisco Garcia, a priest from the Diocese of Ciudad Valles, was appointed pastor, Fr. Fred became the pastor emeritus. When Fr. Schmidt died in 2003, he was buried at the parish in the crypt of the convent church that he helped build. With his death, Holy Cross withdrew from this parish, although one of its members has become a Holy Cross priest. The relationship with the parish and pastor continues to be one of friendship and Holy Cross offers occasional assistance.

In 1987, the Southern Province assumed the responsibility for the pastoral care of Santo Tomas Moro parish in the Archdiocese of Monterrey, Nuevo León. The parish grew dramatically and eventually gave birth to a new parish, Nuestra Madre Santisima de La Luz. Holy Cross opted to shift from Santo Tomas Moro to this new parish with greater needs. Holy Cross continues to serve this community.

In 1993 the Southern Province founded a program of vocation promotion and initial formation for young Mexican men who believe they are called to religious life and priesthood in Holy Cross. The Southern Province established a program for postulants and a program for professed seminarians. The novitiate for the formation program is in Peru.

In 1999, Holy Cross Family Ministries founded Family Rosary in México. Their offices and meeting rooms are located in an Archdiocesan pastoral center in San Francisco Javier parish, close to La Luz parish in the Archdiocese of Monterrey. Their offices serve as a "hub" for the growing Holy Cross apostolate of fostering family prayer, especially the rosary, as well as devotion to Mary throughout Mexico.

In 2000, the local Holy Cross community in Monterrey established an immersion program at La Luz parish. This program provides an intercultural experience of life and ministry with and for the poor. It is offered principally to students from Holy Cross universities, high schools, and parishes in the United States. One group of Chilean laywomen also participated. The program has been temporarily suspended due to the wave of violence in Mexico.

In 2010, Fr. Marín Hernández, CSC, and Fr. Paulino Antonio, CSC, the first two Mexicans to be ordained as Holy Cross priests, were assigned to Parroquia San José in Tamán, San Luis Potosí. The Bishop of the Diocese of Ciudad Valles offered this parish to Holy Cross in part because of the indigenous community's need for pastoral care and evangelization. Frs. Hernández and Antonio speak Nahuatl, the language of the people, and Fr. Antonio comes from this indigenous group.

In 2011 the Holy Cross community in Mexico became a part of the newly formed U.S. Province of Priests and Brothers.

The Mission of Holy Cross in Peru
The mission of Holy Cross in Peru began with an exhortation of Pope John XXIII to religious orders to send missionaries to Latin America, and Holy Cross arrived in the north of Peru in Cartavio in September 1963. The presence soon included Chimbote in the early 1960s and expanded for a time to Puno and Tacna, on the border of Bolivia and Chile, and finally came to develop an organized presence and pastoral strategy in the Diocese of Chosica. The parish, El Señor de la Esperanza, is about the size of a small diocese in the U.S. Approximately 250,000 Catholics live in a parish that has 19 chapels. In 1982, within the boundaries of Lord of Hope Parish in Canto Grande, the Congregation established "Yancana Huasy" (literally "House of Work" in the language of the Incas). Yancana Huasy attends to the needs of children who live with physical and mental challenges, including Downs' Syndrome, and their families.

The Mission of Holy Cross in Uganda
In November 1958, four Holy Cross priests arrived in Entebbe, Uganda to begin their ministry. The dioceses of Toro and Bunyoro were too large for the bishop to handle. He granted Holy Cross permission to minister to the people of Fort Portal and Butiti. Soon thereafter Holy Cross began administrating St. Leo's College, a high school in Kyegobe, Fort Portal diocese. Near Christmas of 1960, Holy Cross began its first parish at Bukwali. Around the end of February 1961, Cardinal Agaginian, the Armenian Patriarch at the time, told Fr. Christopher O'Toole, CSC, the superior general of Holy Cross, that missionary Vincent J. McCauley was to be made Bishop of Fort Portal. In 1967, a house, and later novitiate (in 1984), was built on the shores of Lake Saaka in Fort Portal. During the military dictatorship of Idi Amin, the Congregation decided at one point to leave the Diocese of Fort Portal. This proposal was later abandoned. Bishop McCauley died on November 1, 1982.

By 1962, the institute had begun accepting Ugandan religious aspirants to the community. Along with other religious institutes, they began a seminary in Kenya called Tangaza in 1986. By 1989, Holy Cross and a consortium of religious congregations and societies established the Queen of Apostles Philosophy Centre in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Jinja ("PCJ") due largely to the political crises between Kenya and Uganda. It was then difficult for Ugandans to study at Tangaza. PCJ was to be a seminary for philosophical and religious studies for these (mostly Ugandan) postulants.

On August 17, 1991, Holy Cross ordained its first Ugandan priest, Fr. Fulgens Katende. Five Holy Cross Brother's and one priest died in the genocide of 1994. In Bugembe and Wanyange, two villages of the Jinja Diocese, a primary school and secondary were opened: Holy Cross Primary and Holy Cross Lakeview Secondary respectively. In 1998, Lakeview made world news when United States President Bill Clinton landed in a helicopter on the school's compound for discussions with Ugandan President Museveni. A third parish opened in 1994 at Kyrausozi.

In the new millennium the first [East] African district superior of Holy Cross was named in 2003. This was a step towards congregational and district maturity as the past nine superiors had been Americans.

Higher education

 * University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana (1842)
 * Saint Mary's College, Notre Dame, Indiana (1844) (Sisters of the Holy Cross)
 * St. Edward's University, Austin, Texas (1878)
 * St. Joseph College, St. Joseph, New Brunswick Canada (1864)
 * University of Portland, Portland, Oregon (1901)
 * University of Holy Cross, New Orleans, Louisiana (1916) (Marianites of Holy Cross)
 * King's College, Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania (1946)
 * Stonehill College, Easton, Massachusetts (1948)
 * Notre Dame College, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1949)
 * Holy Cross College, Notre Dame, Indiana (1966) (Brothers of Holy Cross)
 * Holy Cross College, Agartala, India (2009)
 * Notre Dame University Bangladesh, Dhaka, Bangladesh (2013)

Bangladesh

 * Saint Placid's High School, Chittagong, Bangladesh (1853)
 * St. Gregory's High School, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1881)
 * Holy Cross High School, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1912)
 * Saint Nicholas High School, Nagori, Bangladesh (1920)
 * Biroidakuni High School, Mymensingh, Bangladesh (1941)
 * Brother Andre High School, Noakhali, Bangladesh (c. 1940)
 * Mariam Ashram High School, Chittagong, Bangladesh (1946)
 * Notre Dame College, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1949)
 * Notre Dame College, Mymensingh, Bangladesh (2014)
 * Holy Cross College (Dhaka), Dhaka, Bangladesh (1950) (Sisters of the Holy Cross)
 * Holy Cross Girls' High School, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1950) (Sisters of the Holy Cross)
 * Udayan High School, Barisal, Bangladesh (1952)
 * Saint Joseph Higher Secondary School, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1954)
 * St. Joseph School of Industrial Trades, Dhaka, Bangladesh (1954)

Brazil

 * Colegio Santa Maria, São Paulo, Brazil (1947) (Sisters of Holy Cross)
 * Colegio Dom Amando, Santarém, Brazil (1966)
 * Colegio Notre Dame, Campinas, Brazil (1961)
 * Colegio Santa Cruz, São Paulo, Brazil

Canada

 * Collège Notre-Dame du Sacré-Coeur (Montreal), Montreal, Quebec, Canada (1869)
 * Notre Dame College School (Welland), Welland, Ontario, Canada
 * Holy Cross Catholic Secondary School (St. Catharines, Ontario)
 * Saint Joseph's Oratory, Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Chile

 * St. George's College, Santiago, Chile (1943)
 * Colegio de Nuestra Senora de Andacollo, (Santiago), Santiago, Chile (1976)

France

 * Saint-Michel de Picpus, Paris. France
 * Saint-Michel de Saint-Mandé, Saint-Mandé. France
 * Notre Dame de Garaison, Monléon-Magnoac. France
 * Notre Dame d'Orveau, Nyoiseau. France
 * Institution Notre-Dame de Sainte-Croix, Neuilly-sur-Seine (independent since 1903)

Ghana

 * St. Augustine's College (Ghana), Cape Coast, Ghana
 * St John's Secondary School, Sekondi Takoradi, Ghana

Haiti

 * Collège Notre-Dame, Cap Haitian, Haiti (1904)
 * École Père Pérard, Plaisance, Haiti
 * École Père Joseph Lepévédic, Limbé, Haiti

India

 * Holy Cross Matriculation Higher Secondary School, Salem, Tamil Nadu, India (1963)
 * Notre Dame of Holy Cross School [CBSE ], Gundukallur, Salem, Tamil Nadu, India. [2008]
 * Holy Cross International School [CBSE], Salem, Tamil Nadu, India (2021)
 * Holy Cross School, Whitefield, Bangalore, India
 * Holy Cross School, Agartala, Tripura India (1970)(CISCE)
 * Holy Cross School, Tuikarmaw, Tripura (TBSE)
 * Holy Cross School, Katalcherra, Tripura (TBSE)
 * Holy Cross School, Panisagar, Tripura (TBSE)
 * Holy Cross School, Kumarghat, Tripura (TBSE)
 * Notredame Holy Cross School, Moharpara, Tripura (TBSE)
 * St. Andre English Medium School, Bodhjungnagar, Tripura (CBSE)
 * Good Shepherd School, Jongksha, Meghalaya (MBOSE)
 * Holy Cross School, Umkiang, Meghalaya (MBOSE)
 * Holy Cross School, Mawkynrew, Meghalaya (MBOSE)
 * Jeevan Jyothi Technical Institute, Honavar, India
 * Holy Cross School, Mizoram, India
 * Holy Cross School, Trichy, TN (2002)
 * Holy Cross School, Aymanam, Kerala (2003)
 * Holy Cross School, Ghanpur, AP (2003)
 * St Louis School, Dahisar, Mumbai (2002)
 * Abhayadhama, Human Development Centre, Whitefield, Bangalore, Karnataka State (1976)
 * Holy Cross School, Ballia, U.P, India

Liberia

 * St. Patrick's High School (Liberia)

Uganda

 * Holy Cross Lake View Senior Secondary School (Wanyange), Jinja District (1993)

United States

 * Holy Cross High School, New Orleans, Louisiana (1849)
 * Academy of the Holy Cross, Kensington, Maryland (1868) (Sisters of the Holy Cross)
 * Holy Trinity High School, Chicago, Illinois (1910)
 * Cathedral High School (Indianapolis), Indianapolis, Ind. (1918–1972; 2011 reaffiliated)
 * Notre Dame High School (West Haven, Connecticut) (1946)
 * Gilmour Academy, Gates Mills, Ohio (1946)
 * Notre Dame High School, Sherman Oaks, California (1947)
 * St. Edward High School, Lakewood, Ohio, (1949)
 * Holy Family High School, Port Allen, Louisiana (1949) (Marianites of Holy Cross)
 * Archbishop Hoban High School, Akron, Ohio (1953)
 * St. Francis High School, Mountain View, California (1955)
 * Notre Dame High School, Fairfield, Connecticut (1955)
 * Notre Dame College Preparatory, Niles, Illinois (1955)
 * Holy Cross High School, Flushing, New York (1955)
 * Holy Cross of San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas (1957)
 * St. Edmond's Academy, Wilmington, Delaware (1959)
 * Bishop McNamara High School, Forestville, Maryland, (1964)
 * Moreau Catholic High School, Hayward, California (1965)
 * Holy Cross High School, Waterbury, Connecticut (1968)
 * San Juan Diego Catholic High School, Austin, Texas (2019)

Uganda

 * Holy Cross Primary School (Bugembe), Jinja District
 * Saint Andrew's Primary School (Wanyange), Jinja District
 * Saint Jude's Primary School, Jinja District

United States

 * St. Edward High School, Lakewood, Ohio (1949)
 * St. Ignatius Martyr, Austin, Texas (1940)
 * Gilmour Academy, Gates Mills, Ohio (1946)
 * Holy Cross School, New Orleans, Louisiana (1849)
 * St. John Vianney School, Goodyear, Arizona (1992)
 * St. Joseph Grade School, South Bend, Indiana (1854)
 * Holy Cross School, South Bend, Indiana (1929)
 * St. Adalbert Catholic School, South Bend, Indiana
 * Christ the King Catholic School, South Bend, Indiana (1953)
 * Holy Redeemer Catholic School, Portland, Oregon (1908)

Bangladesh

 * Holy Cross Church, Luxmibazar, Dhaka
 * Church of St. Augustine of Hippo, Mathbari
 * St. Joseph Church, Srimangal
 * Our Lady of Holy Rosary Cathedral, Chittagong
 * Fatima Rani Church, Bandarban
 * Shanti Raj Girja Catholic Church, Thanchi
 * Church of the Sacred Heart, Gournadi
 * Sacred Heart of Jesus Church, Khalibpur
 * Corpus Christi Church, Jalchatra
 * St. Paul's Church, Pirgacha
 * St. George's Church, Mariamnagar

Brazil

 * Paroquia São José do Jaguaré, São Paulo, SP
 * Paroquia São Felipe Apostolo, Maua, SP

Canada

 * St. Kevin's Church, Welland, ON
 * Holy Name Parish, Toronto, ON
 * Our Lady of Perpetual Help Parish, Sherwood Park, AB
 * St. Ann Parish, Toronto, ON
 * Unité pastorale de Saint-Laurent, Saint-Laurent, QC
 * Unité pastorale du Saint-Esprit, Cap-Pelé, NB
 * Saint-Gregoire-le-Grand, Mont Saint-Gregoire, QC
 * Notre-Dame-des-Champs, Saint-Polycarp, QC
 * Saint-Martin de Val-Bélair, Québec, QC

Chile

 * Parroquia San Roque, Santiago (1949)
 * Parroquia Nuestra Señora de Andacollo, Santiago (1977)
 * Parroquia Nuestra Señora de la Merced, Calle Larga (1989)

France

 * Paroisse Notre-Dame de Sainte-Croix, Le Mans

Haiti

 * Sainte Rose de Lima, Pilate
 * Saint Charles Borromée, Le Borgne
 * Saint Albert Le Grande, Ravine Trompette, Pilate
 * Sainte Marie Madeleine, Duchity
 * Notre Dame de l'Esperance/ND du Mont Carmel, Magagnosse/Labadie
 * Notre Dame de Guadalupe, Waney, Port-au-Prince
 * Saint Jules, Petit Bourg du Borgne
 * Paroisse Sainte Elizabeth, Caracol

India

 * St. Joseph Church, Agartala, Tripura
 * St. Andre Mission, Bodhjunagar, Tripura
 * Good Shepherd Church, Kathalcherra, Tripura
 * St. Paul's Catholic Church, Kumarghat, Tripura
 * Immaculate Conception Church, Moharpara, Tripura
 * St. Mary's Church, Tuikarmaw, Tripura
 * Holy Cross Parish, Bagbasa, Tripura
 * Good Shepherd Parish, Jongksha, Meghalaya
 * Holy Cross Parish, Mawkynrew, Meghalaya
 * Holy Cross Parish, Umkiang, Meghalaya
 * Holy Cross Church, Champhai, Mizoram
 * St. John Parish, Khawzawl, Mizoram
 * Holy Cross Parish, Koloriang, Arunachal Pradesh
 * St. Sebastian Church, Loliem, Goa
 * St Vincent De Paul Church, Katapady, Karnataka
 * Nirmal Matha Church, Abadi Ghanpur, Andhra Pradesh
 * Christ the King Parish, Pune, Maharashtra
 * St. Joseph Church, Chengalam, Kottayam, Kerala
 * St. Louis Parish Centre, Dahisar, Mumbai, Maharashtra
 * Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Dindigal, Tamil Nadu
 * St. Sebastian Church, Idukki, Kerala

Kenya

 * Holy Cross Parish Community, Dandora, Nairobi

Mexico

 * Parroquia Nuestra Madre de la Luz, Monterrey, Nuevo León (1996)
 * Parroquia San José, Tamán, San Luis Potosí (2011)

Peru

 * Parroquia El Señor de la Esperanza, Canto Grande, Lima

Tanzania

 * St. Brendan Parish, Kitete

Uganda

 * Holy Cross Parish Community, Bugembe, Jinja
 * St. Jude Thaddeus Parish Community, Kyarusozi, Fort Portal

United States

 * Christ the King Parish, South Bend, Indiana (1933)
 * Holy Cross Parish (1929) and St. Stanislaus Parish (1899), South Bend, Indiana
 * Holy Cross Parish, South Easton, Massachusetts (1967)
 * Holy Redeemer Parish, Portland, Oregon (2002)
 * Sacred Heart Parish, Colorado Springs, Colorado (1984) (Including Mission Parishes of Holy Rosary and Our Lady of Perpetual Help)
 * Sacred Heart Parish, Notre Dame, Indiana (1842)
 * Sacred Heart Saint Francis de Sales Parish, Bennington, Vermont (1854 & 1880)
 * St. Adalbert Parish, South Bend (2003) and St. Casimir Parish, South Bend, Indiana (1897)
 * St. Ignatius Martyr Parish, Austin, Texas (1938)
 * St. John Vianney Parish, Goodyear, Arizona (1981)
 * St. Joseph Parish, South Bend, Indiana (1853)
 * St. André Bessette Parish, Portland, Oregon (2001)
 * St. John the Evangelist Parish, Viera, Florida (2001)

Other

 * Ave Maria Press
 * Holy Cross Family Ministries
 * Family Theater Productions
 * Family Rosary Crusade

Books and publications

 * Gift of the Cross Lenten Reflections in the Holy Cross Tradition
 * The Cross, Our Only Hope; Catholic Bestseller available from Ave Maria Press
 * Basil Moreau; biography available from Ave Maria Press
 * Vincent McCauley, C.S.C.:Bishop of the Poor, Apostle of East Africa; biography available from Ave Maria Press

title: Congregation of Holy Cross


text:
Edmonton—Leduc

Edmonton—Leduc was a federal electoral district in Alberta, Canada, that was represented in the House of Commons of Canada from 2004 to 2015. As a result of changes to the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, based on the 2011 census, the number of seats in the House of Commons of Canada increased from 308 to 338. Alberta's seat count increased from 28 to 34. The riding was redistributed into the new ridings of Edmonton Riverbend and Edmonton—Wetaskiwin.

Geography
The district includes a southwestern portion of Edmonton, the Town of Devon and the City of Leduc and its vicinity.

History
The electoral district was created in 2003 as a result of the creation of two extra Alberta seats. It is composed from the following previous ridings: 55.5% from Edmonton Southwest, 20.9% from Edmonton—Strathcona and 23.6% from Wetaskiwin.

Member of Parliament
This riding has elected the following members of Parliament:

Most recent member of Parliament
Its last sitting member of Parliament was James Rajotte, a former executive assistant. He was first elected to Parliament in the 2000 election. He is a member of the Conservative Party of Canada.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Edmonton—Leduc


text:
Giuseppe Mercalli

Giuseppe Mercalli (21 May 1850 – 19 March 1914) was an Italian volcanologist and Catholic priest. He is known best for the Mercalli intensity scale for measuring earthquake intensity.

Biography
Born in Milan, Mercalli was ordained a Roman Catholic priest and soon became a professor of Natural Sciences at the seminary of Milan. The Italian government appointed him a professor at Domodossola, followed by a job at Reggio di Calabria. He was professor of geology at the University of Catania during the late 1880s and finally was given a job at Naples University. He was also director of the Vesuvius Observatory until the time of his death.

Giuseppe Mercalli also observed eruptions of the volcanoes Stromboli and Vulcano in the Aeolian Islands. His descriptions of these eruptions became the basis for two indices of the Volcanic Explosivity Index: 1 – Strombolian eruption, and 2 – Vulcanian eruption. He also photographed Vesuvius immediately after its eruption in 1906.

In 1914, Mercalli burnt to death under suspicious circumstances, allegedly after knocking over a paraffin lamp in his bedroom. He is thought to have been working through the night, as he often did (he once was found working at 11 a.m. when he had set an examination, upon hearing which he replied, "It surely can't be daylight yet!"), when the fatal accident occurred. His body was found, carbonized, by his bed, holding a blanket which he apparently attempted to use to fend off the flames. The authorities, however, stated a few days later that the professor was quite possibly murdered by strangling and soaked in petrol and burned to conceal the crime because they determined that some money (now worth about $1,400) was missing from the professor's apartment.

Intensity scales
Mercalli devised two earthquake intensity scales, both modifications of the Rossi–Forel scale. The first, now largely forgotten, had six degrees whereas the Rossi–Forel scale had ten. The second, now known as the Mercalli intensity scale, had ten degrees, and elaborated the descriptions in the Rossi–Forel scale.

The Mercalli intensity scale is, in modified form, still used. Unlike the Richter magnitude scale, which measures the energy released by an earthquake, the Mercalli intensity scale measures the effects of an earthquake on structures and people. It is poorly suited for measuring earthquakes in sparsely populated areas but useful for comparing damage done by various tremors and historical earthquakes, and for earthquake engineering. The scale currently in use assigns indices ranging from I ("Not felt, except by a few under favorable conditions"), to XII ("Damage total; objects thrown into the air").

Italian physicist Adolfo Cancani expanded the ten-degree Mercalli scale with the addition of two degrees at the more intense of the scale: XI (catastrophe) and XII (enormous catastrophe). This was later modified by the German geophysicist August Heinrich Sieberg and became known as the Mercalli–Cancani–Sieberg (MCS) scale. This was modified again and published in English by Harry O. Wood and Frank Neumann in 1931 as the Mercalli–Wood–Neumann (MWN) scale. It was later improved by Charles Richter, developer of the Richter scale.

title: Giuseppe Mercalli


text:
Navaga

The navaga (Eleginus nawaga) is a relatively small species of fish in the cod family Gadidae. It inhabits the European arctic and subarctic waters of the Barents, White, and Kara seas, from the Kola Bay to the Ob River estuary.

Navaga fish usually occur at shallow depths, along shores with soft bottoms, close to the ice and on the continental shelf. In winter, they live in nearshore waters, where spawning takes place. They are often found in estuaries and can enter fresh water in rivers. In summer, they return to open waters. They feed on crustaceans, benthic animals, and small fish. They can grow to at least to 42 cm but typical adult size is smaller, being only 15–25 cm in the White Sea.

The navaga is commercially fished mainly in the winter in the bays of the White Sea. The European navaga is a close relative of the saffron cod (E. gracilis), a Pacific sister species.

title: Navaga


text:
Prebold

Prebold is a settlement in central Slovenia. It is the seat of the Municipality of Prebold. It lies on the edge of the lower Savinja Valley at the northern edge of the Sava Hills west of Celje. The area is part of the traditional region of Styria. The municipality is now included in the Savinja Statistical Region.

Name
The name of the settlement was changed from Sveti Pavel pri Preboldu (literally, 'Saint Paul near Prebold') to Prebold in 1952. The name was changed on the basis of the 1948 Law on Names of Settlements and Designations of Squares, Streets, and Buildings as part of efforts by Slovenia's postwar communist government to remove religious elements from toponyms. The settlement is also locally known as Šempavel (< Šent Pavel 'Saint Paul'). The name Sveti Pavel is derived from the church in the settlement, and the name Prebold is believed to be derived from German Prewald, in turn borrowed from Slovene preval 'mountain pass'. The name Prebold formerly referred to a part of the settlement known today as Graščina, but may have originally referred to the Vrhe Pass on the route from Prebold to Trbovlje.

Church
The parish church in the settlement is dedicated to Saint Paul and belongs to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Celje. It was built in 1898 on the site of a 14th-century church.

title: Prebold


text:
Talk:Brother (disambiguation)

This article is nothing but a combination of 3 dic-defs. 66.245.27.48 00:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to improve it. I'll also add a stub notice.--Samuel J. Howard 03:30, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Siblings as main entry
Discuss at Talk:Sister (disambiguation). Ewlyahoocom 01:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Redundancy
At least 3 of the entries could be combined into a male member of a fraternity or religious order.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 02:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Brother (disambiguation)


text:
Pequannock River

The Pequannock River is a tributary of the Pompton River, approximately 20 mi long, located in northern New Jersey in the United States.

It rises in eastern Sussex County, near Highland Lakes on the north side of Hamburg Mountain. It flows southeast to Stockholm, then east-southeast, in a gap north of Green Pond Mountain and other ridges, past Butler and Bloomingdale. It joins the Ramapo River at Pompton Plains in Pequannock Township to form the Pompton.

In its upper course, it forms part of the county line between Passaic and Morris counties.

It is impounded near its source to form the Oak Ridge Reservoir. The river is relatively unspoiled compared to other rivers in the region. It is a popular spot for recreation trout fishing in its upper reaches. Fishing, hunting, and other recreational uses of the river and watershed are controlled by the City of Newark's Division of Watershed Development, which requires permits for all such uses.

The Pequannock watershed is the source of most of Newark's water supply. The lands and water were purchased under the mayoralty of Joseph E. Haynes.

Tributaries

 * Apshawa
 * Wanaque River

title: Pequannock River


text:
User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive May 2004

Hindutva
The NPOV notice was re-instated - after I removed it for lack of reason and explanation - by User:Fatalvenom. I suspect (but am not sure) this is yet another sock puppet of the Hindu nationalist of yesteryear User:LibertarianAnarchist (and Conradx, and Democrate2003, ...). I re-removed it. -- V V 01:56, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

anarchy
Thanks. :) So what do you want to do about the egalitarianism bit? I think it should be pulled from the intro and mentioned somewhere in the article as a goal of some anarchists (though it sort of is already). -- V V 01:46, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Political subjects are the hot potatoes of Wikipedia, and attract all sorts of horrors, but I think the NPOV policy is a good enough guide. We can describe what actual anarchists think, and that should do it. Illuminating direct quotes from self-described anarchists, properly attributed, would certainly be acceptable and might be helpful in this regard. And politicians may lie, but political science is about how to organize government (or in this case the supposed lack of), which is not really about deception at all. No, I'm not an anarchist; I just got dragged into these articles because partisans were tampering with them. -- V V 04:48, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Re Assassin: No, please, go on. The thought of Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair and Straw in camos with rifles in Fallujah really does tickle me pink. :D

In any case, thanks again. Wally 17:56, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

 * By the way, just one last thing. I've been poking around here quite a bit, and I've become impressed with the work done by the Association of Members' Advocates. While the information page says that membership is open to anyone, I've worked too long in local party politics not to know that there are rules (shakes head) and then there are rules (nods). Basically, then, I'm informally asking for advice from you, a current member, as to whether I'm active, effective and experienced at Wikipedia to qualify as a good AMA member. Obviously, I am interested in the investigation of such contentious issues, and as an avowed debater I enjoy both argumentation and discussion, but I'm not quite sure I've done enough to give the position the due respect to which it is owed, or understand the nuances of the place enough, or have ingratiated myself into the community enough, etc. (I can't even find how to sign up to the damn e-mail list) Any advice you could render thereto would be extremely helpful. Wally 18:41, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

That should about do it - I put myself on the AMA list. I feel like a schoolboy on the first day of kindergarten, teehee! :D Thanks again for all the help, and I look very much forward to working with you in the future.

Naturally, on the off chance I can ever render assistance, either, do not at all hesitate to hit me up. I would be ecstatic to oblige! Wally 00:07, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Preference regarding homosexuality
Because of its history as a term describing a pathology, and, more generally, because of its relatively recent development, the general practice in gay-related articles is to avoid the word "homosexual" out of a sense that the term itself is POV. I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, and, if nothing else, I don't think that there are any completely NPOV terms, but it remains a word that one ought be a little careful using on Wikipedia, in that it's only going to make tempers rise. Since the term "straight" is pretty much in general usage (c.f. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy), it seemed needlessly inflammatory. Snowspinner 05:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Heterosexuality is a gay related topic by virtue of it being on the List of gay-related topics, I'd imagine. As for terminology, it is standard practice to use politically correct terms for groups - Martin Luther King is described as an African-American - not as a black, a negro, a colored person, or anything else. The problem is that with sexual orientation, there isn't really a generally accepted term, which makes everything complicated. ("Gay" has some acceptance, but it's typically considered lacking in that it doesn't cover lesbians. Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender is also used in some spaces, but it's such a mouthful.) Regardless, there is a substantial number of Wikipedians who find the term offensive and POV. You can probably find one of the threads where this is discussed and bring it up with them if you like, but otherwise, it's probably best to let sleeping dogs lie - especially when the term isn't particularly needed, as in this case. As for straight - as I said, the term has pretty much entered general usage, especially with recent television shows. Indeed, "Queer", "Gay", "Bi", "Lesbian", and "Straight" are probably the most commonly used terms in general conversation nowadays, so perhaps they're the best ones to use in general.
 * /shrug. I don't pretend to have a complete answer to this one. I just knew the word was a red flag to a lot of people, and figured that it was a fight that could be avoided - especially since it wasn't really a wholly accurate title, what with straight being in the common parlance. Snowspinner 05:38, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Foolishness
Stop advancing a racist agenda, and furthermore stop vandalizing my talk page. thanks jack. GrazingshipIV 21:14, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

Although it was poor form of Grazing to delete your talk page to make his point, he does have a valid one - you ought not go deleting things from his talk page, regardless of how offensive you find them. If he's offensive on other pages, you have grounds to complain, but one is typically considered to be allowed to criticize other users on one's own talk page. (c.f. User:Wik)Snowspinner 22:25, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Actually I called you a white seperatist which according to you is not racist. You are no one to talk about policy. Eitherway, please stop editing my user page. thanks. ;) GrazingshipIV 00:01, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

style
"Sexuality Avoid homosexuality and thus heterosexuality, use alternatives such as gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight/same-sex/different-sex. Avoid the use of queer (or any term) as being most inclusive." - Manual of Style

RfC
What is RfC? Where did I sign where I was not supposed to? Get-back-world-respect 22:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, deleted it. Message for you at my talk page. Get-back-world-respect 23:08, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Troll
Actually I called you a white seperatist which according to you is not racist. You are no one to talk about policy. Eitherway, please stop editing my user page. thanks. ;) GrazingshipIV 00:01, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

regarding your last comment
Is this in regard of me forgettin to summarize? Or were there more wiki-mores I broke?

Welcome Crag
Thanks for the welcome, Sam! -- Crag 18:55, 2004 May 11 (UTC)

Danny
Sam, my opinions of everyone are capable of changing. Danny 10:58, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome!
Hi there! Thanks! Seems like there's some work to be done on the dinosaur pages here! Will have a go, Tyrannosaurus roll 15:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

 * The name is a sad joke from my undergrad days when the paleo-biologists would hold parties entitled 'Tyrannosaurus Rock' or other such juvenillia. It seemed pretty funny, in a geeky sort of way, my name is a variant on that. Hope you like it, Mark Richards 16:59, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

RfC
You're right, I should not have removed your endorsement of Danny's summary. When I review my edit I'm not quite sure why I did it, but I clearly shouldn't have. My fault entirely.

I will, however, continue to refactor the page as necessary; if I screw up egregiously again, please don't hesitate to let me know. —No-One Jones 17:09, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

 * My personal feeling is that Grazingship should remove the entire thing, both your comment and his. Removing yours and leaving his would not comply with what I meant. I doubt that he would choose to remove his and leave yours. And I saw your new post that he removed. --Michael Snow 17:45, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not think that you will get very far reading my call for you to be smacked upside the head as anything other than metaphoric, though if you want to attempt to escalate the matter, I would probably find the matter dryly amusing at the least. As for the scope of my endorsement, I added my name to Graz's response only - that is not an endorsement of everything he says on the page. It's an agreement with his summary of events there. Snowspinner 18:21, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

review, subject coordination et al.
Hello Sam! I have no idea why you contacted me or who you are. I'm glad, however, that you did. Thank you!

I qualified as as an actuary (F.I.A.) in 1969 and have spent most of my professional career in Canada (my current country of residence). I have worked as an employee and a consultant in most actuarial practice areas.

Just for fun, I looked at the entry on life insurance. It is a stub and was not very good: it contained some errors. I have corrrected its errors and added some "rounding out" text. Also, I did some other related checks. Inter alia, I was interested (and dismayed) to read that deaths follow a Normal Distribution!! This is utter nonsense.

I have the time, interest and knowledge to do something about these matters. Does Wikipedia have the concept of a subject leader, editor or expert resource? To whom do I speak about this matter?

I do not expect you to regurgitate text already on the site. Just point me in the correct direction. Lest I seem unduly selfish, I am also interested in any comments you may have about your activities or Wikipedia in general et cetera.

all the best, robert?! r_h_c 18:06, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Mirv
Hi Sam, could you wander on over to Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/GrazingshipIV and comment there please? Thanks. —No-One Jones 04:04, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Rednecks
Yeah, I find that additionally amusing considering that American Indians were traditionally described as "red", which would presumably apply as much to their necks as to anything else. Further, most actual American Indians living today are country folk, so they might could be described as "rednecks" on sociological rather than racial grounds. Maybe the census will eventually come up with a unified "Native American, Inuit, Aleut, or Hillbilly" category. This would be no more crazy than grouping "Asian" Pakistanis together with "Asian" Japanese.

PS - With regard to heteronormativity, I've been trying to avoid it. The page, I mean, not the normativity. - Nat Kraus e 10:15, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Danny
User:GrazingshipIV has removed his comment about you from his page. Would you be amenable to removing the RfC page now, so that we can all get back to the real work of creating an encyclopedia? Danny 19:30, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Danny 19:47, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Style Guide
You know full well this is a controversial edit, Sam. And you know full well that that policy applies to articles, not to Wikipedia policy. I don't think that one is really encouraged to be bold in altering Wikipedia policy. Come on, Sam. Don't treat me as the goddamn enemy. I've been arguing compromises that include your point of view on countless articles. I've worked for consensus. So don't go claiming I'm anti-wiki because I'm not letting your revisions to Wikipedia policy go through prior to discussion, Sam. It's beneath you. Snowspinner 20:42, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Insinuations
I'm not sure what insinuations you're referring to. Nor am I sure why you find me to be a POV pusher. I can perhaps understand why I might be found rude, but, honestly, I've been no more forceful in articles than you have been. I'm sorry that you've decided to avoid articles that I'm involved in the editing of. I think that, despite the heated words we can occasionally get into, that articles we've both worked on have been substantially improved by it. Heteronormativity and Anarchism both spring to mind immediately as articles that are much better from both of us working on them, and, frankly, from butting heads on edits. I think that consensus is frequently hammered out when two people are both forceful but willing to hear and try to respect the other side's views. I don't like many of your views. I don't like the way in which you relate to and communicate with many other Wikipedians. But I respect your edits and your contributions, and I think that Wikipedia is a better encyclopedia because you've chosen to edit it. And I've defended that view both publicly and privately.

I would ask that you offer the same respect. Snowspinner 22:04, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I apologize for my initial response to you on Heteronormativity. Understand that this was A) A product of being new to Wikipedia, and B) A product of a refreshingly wrong assumption, which was that this was another instance of fundamentalist anti-gay rhetoric being thrown around without any regard for context. As i said then, and continue to say now, I think the objections section that I deleted could be a fine section in a different article.
 * As for the rest of things, I don't think I've gotten in any revert wars with you on articles proper recently. The style manual, I think, is a special case - it's not an article, it's a policy, and it ought not be changed prior to consensus. Articles, I'm all for being bold on, as you've noticed. Policy, I'd like to see some discussion prior to boldness, or else we're going to have a much wider spread chaos on Wikipedia than we already do. I'm not even necessarily averse to the change you want to make to the style manual. I just want to have it discussed before it gets put in.
 * Not sure what there is to say beyond that. My default position with other editors is to respect them. In the case of you, I think that we're more alike than you care to admit. We both represent viewpoints that are underrepresented on Wikipedia, and we're both aggressive in trying to make sure that those views are adequately heard - not dominant, but represented and represented fairly. And we're both, perhaps, a little too prone to rubbing people the wrong way in trying to do that.
 * I've got no beef with you, Sam, and I don't want one. Take care. Snowspinner 22:30, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

User Page Intrusion
Do not put anything into my user page. I wanted my name on Wikipedia to remain permanently in red type. Denelson83 00:27, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Indeed, my guess is that Sam probably meant to put that on your talk page...

 * Well, that's where it should have gone. I have now listed my user page on Speedy deletions. Denelson83 00:29, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

re: normativity
I more or less second your comments. Making new pages and fixing obscure ones is the best part of the wikipedia experience, and I spend too much time getting distracted by other things. I still get involved with pages like neofeudalism and wealth condensation from time to time, because they are ridiculously bad -- with the stakes so long, I don't think they can generate too much stress, and its sort of fun to go a couple rounds with their instigators. The problem with trolls and "majority POV chasing off those who differ" is that they are opposite sides of the same problem. How do you deal with one side without the other side running wild? When I look at my involvement on Origins of the American Civil War, am I the troll or am I "those who differ" getting driven away by the majority? In the end it didn't matter because I was not sufficiently prepared to defend my position. Anyway, I haven't been here long enough to have anything like an opinion on how to improve things, but I'll keep thinking about it as I become more experienced. - Nat Kraus e 05:45, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

income redistribution
Tsk. Wealth redistribution is the meta issue. income redistribution is only one element of wealth distribution. The recent redirect is in completely the wrong direction; the right article has been thrown away, the wrong (or at least subsidiary) has been retained. Bah. (IMHO &c. Inheritance tax, benefits, social housing, right to roam ... all arguably as about wealth redistribution. So is overseas aid, CAP, regional development funds &c &c &c). Any possibility that you'd agree to reversing the redirect? --Tagishsimon

 * Good man. Or woman. I'll make a cup of tea, consult Clause 4, and get on with it... --Tagishsimon re-arranges words: mouth, big, keep, shut

Pointers
Thanks for the pointers! --Russell j 04:20, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Your welcome to me !
Many thanks for the message Sam. I am still trying to find my way round - I suspect I may be so occupied for a while yet!

I am amazed at the objectives and scope of this project. I am keen to contribute, with edits if not with raw data. I spot typo's and grammatical errors very quickly, but am a bit impatient with contributors who will not use a spell-checker before they post.

How does the site cope with disingenuous individuals who behave like hackers? I can't imagine that even with around 300 moderators it is possible to intercept every two year old wishing to become famous instantly!

I moderate at mind-brain.com so I know some of the pitfalls.

How did you spot that I am a newbie? I will try to do the same for other newbies once I become established, and presuming I do things properly at wiki.

Anyway, thanks again and maybe we can 'chat again too!

All the best, rhymer [Bill].

Jon Nielsen
Thanks, Sam, for the introduction. I look forward to reading the articles you referenced.

Jon Nielsen 03:17, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

re:welcome
thanks. i just found the site today. it looks like EVERYTHING has been thought of. ☺ i did see a few articles that could stand for some tweaking & filling out a bit. i have about a million questions, so the links are appreciated. ☺

hank williams III article question
i don't know if this place has any affiliation w/wikipedia. but, the entire hank III article is there, word for word. i'm not sure which came 1st. i'm, obviously not sure what to do about it. any advice or info would be greatly appreciated. also, does this place have ANY private space? ☺ thanks.

oops. :) thanks, sam. sorry about that. would you mind checking my User:Kamai40 to see if it's all proper & junk? :) thanks again. --kamai40 04:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Sam, Thanks for the warm welcome, I will be sure to check out those links.

Thanks again, Alphagastrolphis 05:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you Sam, for the welcome. As you will see, I'm quite familiar with Wikipedia now and I've just connected with a few more languages recently. I can give a hand whenever possible, particularly with the interwikis. Please come and visit my French page some time. Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 09:36, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the message
As you can gather I am new at this. The whole concept is great. I am assuming you sent the links for info not because I was doing something wrong. If I am please let me know

Thanks again
thanks - My first time - every page i created got deleted but hey i will keep going. Tell me there is a page that is named incorrectly - Port Phillip Bay should just be Port Phillip but I dont know how to fix any clues 11:30, 19 May 2004. . User:Bayside

Abuse
I put up with it because I have no choice but to. What would you have me do? Anyway I'm a big girl, i can take it. I just laugh it off now, I find laughing teasing and generally adopting a couldn't care less attitide keeps me sane.

Theresa

No I won't find other areas of wikipedia to concentrate on. Someone has to stand up to people like this, and like I said on the mailing list last week, i aint afraid of nobody. Yeah you're right i have reacted, when it would have been wiser not to, but i'm only human.Thanks for your kind words, it's nice to have support theresa knott 01:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Me naked
Sam how would that be a threat eh? They should consider it a treat no?

But no, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said to irismeister "you fancy me don't you?" after one of his rants. And then I said "you fantasize about me in the uniform don't you?" after he called me a wikicop. I was trying to lighten the mood, most people take a joke in the way it was intended, laugh, then ease up a bit. He didn't. I was sorely tempted to say something on the lines of "you want me in the bath covered in bubbles" after he mistakenly spelled leather as lather, but i didn't actually say it, it would have been too much. (but it would have been funny don't you think?)

I see what happens after MNH requests for comments for me has had a few days to settle before i consider taking him to the AC again, irismeister has already been listed by James.

Interwikis
Hey Sam, How nice of you to answer me in French! I'm not sure, but you appeared to express that you knew very little about interwikis ? They are the links that we put at the top or the bottom of an article to link it to the same article in different languages. Isn't it how you call them en English? Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 01:19, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi again, yes your are quite right. When you look at the top and the bottom of an article, you see links with names of languages. They indicate in which languages you may find the same article. When you edit an article you see a list of these usually at the end : Mythology Mythologia Mitologia ... That's the way you can link the articles. Check that article about interwikis to learn more. Indeed, they are very useful, and that is why I bother to link articles whenever possible. The versions between languages is never completely the same since they are created by communities of different languages so each of them may bring details that another language forgot. Ain't it grand! But standardizing them would take a considerable amount of energy and since articles evolve so quickly, it becomes hard to keep up with all available languages. Have fun now!

Kamai40
wow. that piece was awesome! very thorough & VERY well put together. :) i'ts gonna be awhile before i'm ready for a whole article, i think. need to work on my organizational skills. :) i'm so jazzed about this place, i'm worried about giving off a punter kinda vibe. :) we do have quite a bit in common. :) is it just me, or is ohio the SHIT?! :) i was answering you last nite when our power went out from the storms. it was off till 7:am! have you guys got the cicadas, yet? is it bad? [i'm terrified of bugs.:)] i do have another question: when using song lyrics, what is the proper way to format copyright info? also, is there anyway to save work in progress without it being visible in the encyclopedia? thanks, & please let me know if i am buggin you.

i'm in columbus. born & raised in ironton...now THAT sucked! :) i love ohio. would never consider leaving. this, in my opinion, is GOD's country. :) i think i may have been to dayton once. my son was there @ the air/space museum. do you have a journal, or web page? if not, you may want to consider journal space. [i can't figure out how to do links right yet.] i say so because you seem to have a lot to say & JS offers a great platform & TONS of freedom. also, great exposure. i think you would really do well there. you should check it out. :) thanks for the link. it was a big help. :) --kamai40 04:38, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

am I doing this right?
Hi! Thanks for your note. Check the Talk:Catholicism page; I have an idea about how the files ought to be organized. Tell me what you think. And I'll look at your stuff! Trc

thanks for your help!
Thanks for having a look at my suggestion tonight, Sam Spade! I'm glad I didn't make a big mess of it. My reasoning is that the term "Catholic Church" has always had a special meaning to what we call the RCC. It took on more meanings with the passage of time. Calling it the RCC is in some sense a bit of a misnomer. And, calling it the "CC" doesn't imply that there aren't parts of it that are in communion. Anyway, little by little, the collective writing project gets better. I think you made a good re-write there, of 'criticisms'. That part was bothering me too. Trc 07:15, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the vandalism revert. Snowspinner 13:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Talk page protection
I'll repost this here as well:
 * Eeeeeek! How did I protect this page?!? GAAH. This stupid thing should have a warning, or at least a big prominent notice ex post facto. A thousand apologies; I am deeply embarassed. =( - Fennec (さばくのきつね) 19:29, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

Hi back
I got your message. Sorry for putting unfinished work on public display. I will try to make a stable release and remove the stub message asap, meaning perhaps next week or so. Peter Kwok 23:37, 2004 May 22 (UTC)

Anti-French article
Hi, I don't appreciate your reverting me on the Anti-French article. That section contributes nothing to the understand of the subject and only serves to perpetuate appalling stereotypes. It is a collection of bad clichés disguised as opinions, none of which are attributed, with no explanation of the origins of such sentiments. If you would care to discuss this with me or anyone else on the Talk page, you'd be most welcome, but please don't revert my removal of that text. Thanks. -- Viajero 18:11, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Neither do I. I don't see the difference between personal attacks on another user and attacks on a whole nations. As far as me being an arbitrator, ignore that, makes no difference in this context. Fred Bauder 19:32, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

'' P.S. David.Monniaux wrote most of what you deleted, check the edit history. He is French, BTW''

 * incidently Sam, the fact David is french does not give more "value" or weight to what he writes about how *american* people feel about us. SweetLittleFluffyThing

Reply
This is Acad Ronin: Thanks for the welcome. General advice or is there something I am screwing up in particular that I should learn not to do? :-) Acad Ronin 17:50, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

attention où tu met les pieds avec Sam
That was Anthere's comment. I think you'll have to ask the Sweet Little Fluffy Thing. ;-) -- Cecropia | Talk 03:55, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Pic of the day
It's meant to have two extra brackets, but not the four I originally put in. It now automatically updates at the start of each day. It currently looks like it's a day behind as it's showing the one you saw yesterday, but it'll catch up in quarter of an hour and show the correct one, with the next new one at the start of Friday. The Monday part of the code just makes it link to the right version of Template:Pic of the day as there are now (or will be soon) seven different pages, whereas the old one just linked to Template:Pic of the day and had to be manually updated at the right time each day. Angela . 23:46, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

ml
I have the interface of wikien-l open, but can't find under which email address you are. Can you tell me your user name on the mailing list ?

SweetLittleFluffyThing 01:36, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

I see it. Is it working now ?

~You can try by sending a mail yourself. Digest means you will receive a package of perhaps 10 mails together. So you might not get a digest until tomorrow.

Question
Hello thank you for your welcoming message. I am a new user, and I was wondering how to create a prolife page with my log in name (Frenchy). Do I simply create a new wiki page with my screen name (which seems pretty unlikely, since some users' names probably matches some wikipedia entry). I know you must receive tons of messages, and I feel a bit sorry for using some of your time, but I would truly appreciate if you answered to my question so I can edit a little profile about myself. Thank you very much

Frédéric

P.S. Sorry if the English sounds funny, it's only my 2nd language.

Thanks
Hi

Thanks for reasonable criticism and maturely helping me work through the process.

Cheers Jamie

Camipco 07:06, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive May 2004


text:
User talk:ACow

Greetings from across the Ditch! Man, you are hard to track down! No user page, no talk page, and no signature on your contribution to the New User Log. If this reaches you - Welcome! - Robin Patterson 00:21, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:ACow


text:
Talk:Oil-for-Food Programme/Archive 2

Archived Talk from Talk:Oil for food Comments interspersed in mediation discussion from April 29 and 30, 2004

It was more than just the GAO report, that was one component of it. Interesting you should bring that up because Joseph Christoff (GAO chairman) is upset because the UN is refusing to release any of its internal audits to the GAO. But anyhoo...... my comments on the GAO and what the report implied, was on the talk page, not in the article, so please do us a favor and cram it. As far as known truths and allegations go we do know the following:

 * In short, you lied on the talk page about what the GAO report stated. Thanks for clearing that up.  --Rei

 * Time to break out the way back machine.

 * the article have been verified by a GAO investigation

 * It says Investigation not report BIATCH! An Investigation which is still ongoing at the GAO and is being coordinated with a congressional investigation.TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Please don't call me a bitch. --Rei

 * I never called you a "bitch" honey cakes, so tone down the potty mouth.

 * Kofi Annan admits that there is a high probability of wrongdoing in the program.

 * Not bribery. --Rei

 * Kofi is not going to say bribery. Since there is an ongoing investigation (that the UN is trying to stall), he most definitely is not going to say bribery when it could mean his job, jail time for his buddies, and his credibility swinging from a rope in what will be a very public execution of his reputation..

 * I'm asking you to quit trying to use what Kofi said to give credence to things that he never even talked about. --Rei

 * $10bil of the funds are were illegally kicked back to Saddam.

 * The GAO found the program (4 by$? I'd have to check the report) more than the value of the products, and assumed that it was kickbacks.  The rest was oil smuggling.

 * Not assumed, concluded. The UN also turned a blind eye to the smuggling operation as well as Michael Soussan pointed out. But I forgot he is just another nobody too right?

 * And concluded via the fact that the products weren't selected weren't sold at market price, which is an assumption that will be investigated if you can just wait the couple months for the investigation (why don't you respond to the fact that you refuse to wait for the investigation???). The GAO doesn't fault any individuals for not stopping the smuggling - the general sense of the report is that the UN felt helpless to stop these sorts of things because they didn't have the resources or authority for major operations.    By the way, will you admit that your 10b$ in kickbacks statement is false?

 * Why dont I wait for the end of the investigation? Simple: Wiki articles regulary update themselves (911 commision, ongoing War in Iraq) as events unfold. And, no, I wont admit that the $10bil figure is false honey cakes.TDC 21:02, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * They update themselves when there is NEWS of new facts that have come to light - not the latest smear. This is not "TDC's Blog".  We - at least I, for one - have quality standards.

 * I'm not asking you to admit that the 10b$ number itself is false - I'm asking you to admit that the GAO does not say that Saddam received 10b$ in kickbacks. It says no such thing.  It says that it is their conclusion that he received 4.4 billion dollars in kickbacks.  To claim that they said 10b$ in kickbacks is a lie. --Rei

 * Shaker al-Kaffaji admits that the charges against him are true and that hed did received and sell Iraqi oil contracts and kick back money to Saddam.

 * And Shakir al-Khafaji is a noone. His name would be completely unknown if he hadn't contributed to a Ritter film.  You're accusing people as disprate as world leaders and the Russian Orthodox Church.  Last I checked, Khafaji didn't run the Russian Orthodox Church.  --Rei

 * He’s a nobody, He’s a nobody!! Wahhh it doesn’t prove a thing. Whining will get you no where sparky. He not only contributed to Ritter’s film, but also arranged the trip for Baghdad McDermott. It provides more credence to the Al’Mada article. TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * What country does he run? What world-relevant organization does he run?  What church does he run?  Do you have *anything* relevant about this guy?  --Rei

 * Galloway admits that his contributors had links to the former Iraqi regime.

 * How many times do I have to correct you on this? Galloway admitted that it was *possible* that people who had donated to his *charity*, which was set up because he *already opposed the sanctions and the possibility of war with Iraq*, had ties.  He stated that working with people who have ties to Saddam was the inevitable price to pay for dealing with Saddam.  *Duh*.  You've been corrected enough times on this one that there's no way you could keep repeating it without knowing that you're lying.  --Rei

 * You are so right on this one. I mean what are the odds that after this prick spent the better part of 30 years schilling for the Soviets, that he would schill for Saddam. I mean its not like he has set a precedent. Simple fact, Galloway took money, and did not give a rats ass where it came from just so long as he could use it to continue his campaign against the US, and lets be honest, that’s all the anti-sanctions movement was about, or at least to one of its former members at any rate. Galloway lied, Iraqis died.TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah. What are the odds that a person could actually believe in anything liberal without being on the dole from someone.  If you'll excuse me, I have to go collect my weekly check from Osama bin Laden.  BTW, what did Galloway "lie" about?  --Rei

 * A check from Bin Laden, now why doesn't that suprise me.

 * An authorized oil for food contractor was shut down for financial links to Al-Queada

 * Which one? --Rei

 * ASAT Trust and Bank Al Taqwa TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Ah. Out of the several (hundreds? thousands?  I know it's at least 700) contracts given out in OFF ended up going to a company which the US declared associated with terrorists?  What a horrid endictment.  I mean, could you imagine if the Bush administration had ties to al-Qaeda - what a scandal *that* would be!  Should I go fill the George Bush article with a 4:1 allegation to content ratio over that?  --Rei

 * Thats two honey cakes. And its not organizations that are on the US's terrorism list, but organizations that are on the UN's list. And ooh, Counterpunch, now thats a sourse we can trust! TDC 20:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Ok, what source do you want? How about the Federation of American Scientists?  The Los Angeles Times?  Salon? The Guardian?  How many more do you want?  --Rei

 * The General Accounting Office report, presented at a congressional hearing into the program, determined that 80 percent of U.N. records had not been turned over and the UN claims that documents can no longer be located.

 * That's called disorganization and a lack of record keeping, although I haven't seen that particular claim. --Rei

 * The vast majority of "relief supplies" came from two places: France and Russia. These two nations also continually pushed to expand the program.

 * Ooooh! And most of the contractors in Iraq came from America.  Does that mean that America invaded to help the contractors?  Give it a rest.  --Rei

 * No it does not, but does that mean that France and Russia supported expanding the program (against US and UK wishes) because its officials were being bribed and given sweetheart deals. You betcha!

 * Wait a minute. You're saying that if one country does things that help its business interests a ton, that it's not some hidden agenda, but that if two other countries do things that help their companies by a lesser amount (compare OFF to Iraq reconstruction, oil purchase, and basic supply contracts per year), that there is some insidious motive.  Stop and analyze your logic.

 * We are paying for Iraqi reconstruction, you are damn right the bulk of the contracts are going to us. TDC 20:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * That's not what I asked you. I'm talking about the invasion.  If France and Russia supported OFF just so their companies could get the contracts, one could apply the same logic to the US invasion.  Because, I mean, it is so shocking to think that in France and Russia, they might actually care if people in Iraq starve or die of easily preventable diseases.  No, those pinko-liberals had to be on the dole to someone!  --Rei

 * "There is no question that where the evidence is beyond doubt, the US will take action to put people who defrauded the system to court, and for the courts to apply appropriate justice. That may be criminal courts as well as civil ones." - Hankes-Drielsma

 * And Drielsma is a rep. of the committee headed by, is a close personal friend of, and is on the payroll of, Ahmed Chalabi. You know, the fraudster bank embezzler.  --Rei

 * Drielsma also works for one of the best accounting firms in the world. But I know, I know, just another corrupt nobody whose word (not to mention the mountain of evidence he will unleash) means nothing. TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah, he's such a major figure because of his former job as a business executive on a committee. The biggest things he personally runs are Roland Berger Strategy Consultants and Windsor Leadership Trust.  The latter is such a good, worldwide organization, in fact, that it gets 151 hits on the internet.  So good, in fact, that its website is down .    For comparison, a google search for pages containing the keywords "crazy", "peanuts", and "sidewinder" (I just picked three random words that came to mind) gets 272 hits.  Roland-Berger is a bit better - it gets just a little bit less hits than "crazy" "peanuts" "cookies".

 * What a stunning repudiation of his credentials! I mean man, you have just proven that he is totaly unqualified. TDC 20:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * This guy is not some impressive figure. You're trying to use his credentials to show him off as some sort of really reputable figure; he's not that impressive.  He runs two mediocre organizations, and was a former upper-midlevel exec in Price-Waterhouse.  And you still haven't addressed anything about the fact that he's a Chalabi friend, who was picked by him personally, and is being paid by him.  --Rei

 * Not an impressive figure? How could you claim that his education and experience in the business world does not make him more than well qualified to run this investigation? TDC 14:36, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * Information on purchasers and sellers names and deals brokered through the UN became confidential after Sevan took control of the program

 * You still haven't evidence that, or that even if it was, if it was a Sevan request as opposed to a request of the new company doing the inspections. That's called "smear" when you don't have any evidence to back it up, by the way.   --Rei

 * I most certainly have.

 * Recap please:

 * While attempting to determine the complexity of the Oil for Food program for an article in the New York Times, investigative journalist, Claudia Rosett of the Hudson Institute, discovered that the UN treated details such as the identities of Oil-for-Food contractors, the price, quantity and quality of goods involved in the relief deals, and the identities of the oil buyers and precise quantities they received as confidential. The bank statements, the interest paid, the transactions, were all secret as well . This all took place after Sevan began heading the program, set up by Kofi Annan's predecessor, Boutros Boutros-Ghali. =Rosett testified to this under oath on April 21, 2004 before the House Subcommittee on National Security=.

 * Boo Yah!!! TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * "Boo Yah"? That's intelligent debate.  Before you "Boo Yah" again, I suggest you read what you're posting.  As I stated before, you haven't evidenced that it happened when Sevan took over the program, or that if it was, it was a deliberate action from Sevan.  Once again, you're doing Proof by Ghost Reference - here's Rosett's testimony: . And this is on top of the fact that you are selectively picking whose testimony to look at.

 * Well, I read what I wrote again, and ..... um .. yeah .... BOO-YAH!TDC 20:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * At what point did Rosett blame *anything* on Sevan? Or even state that it took place after Sevan took over? --Rei

 * the UN treated details such as the identities of Oil-for-Food contractors, the price, quantity and quality of goods involved in the relief deals, and the identities of the oil buyers and precise quantities they received as confidential. The bank statements, the interest paid, the transactions, were all secret as well This all took place after Sevan began heading the program

 * For legal resons, I am sure that Rosett cannot come out and say that Sevan was on the take, but she paints a pretty clear picture of what was at best his ineptitude at stemming the flow of illegal funds and at worst his involvement of a criminal conspiracy to enrich both Saddam and himself. TDC 14:36, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

The only argument you have is that Chalibli is friends with the new Oil minister, which would not invalidate any of my above points as they are all independent of the Al Mada claims.

Give it up chief, it stays. TDC 17:54, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * That's not your call. --Rei

 * Right on that, its not my call, but no one has ever out muscled me before, I doubt you will be the first sweet cheeks. TDC 20:01, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not trying to out-muscle you. You just don't get this, do you?  --Rei

One more dash of salt on your already painful wound.

 * "We should have spoken out when we came across indications that the Iraqi government was demanding kickbacks as the cost of doing business," he said. "We should have spoken out when members of the Iraqi government made intimidating threats against our staff. We should have spoken out when the Iraqi government delayed or sabotaged our humanitarian program in Iraqi Kurdistan. We should have spoken out on a range of issues, but in most cases we did not."

Michael Soussan, Former Program Coordinator for the Oil-for-Food Program

 * Soussan isn't major enough of a player in the program to even render a hit on the UN's website. I've quoted in the article from several *heads* of the program.  Give it up.  --Rei

 * several *heads* who all pulled up to Saddams tit as suckled dirty oil money while Iraqis died, yeah real reliable sources they are. TDC 20:06, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Next time you want to erase what I wrote on the talk page, dont, ok honey cakes? TDC 20:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * It must have been a merger error. Almost every post I've made I've had to merge, because there's been so much activity.  It's a real pain.  Of course, the comment that accidentally got removed shows the quality of journalism that you're bringing to this forum, so I'm glad that you reinserted it.  --Rei

You are jack's enraged feeling of humiliation

TDC 18:03, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * What on earth is that supposed to mean? Why don't you *evidence* what you claim instead of insinuating?  And *why can't you wait for the investigation*?  You have yet to answer that.  --Rei

 * The consensus was to merge. I do not think it is helpful if two who opposed the outcome now complain again. If it were helpful to have two articles others would see it as well. You already failed to convince us before.
 * TDC's list again worries me if he is at all willing to contribute to an unbiased article. It is deceptive to quote Galloway out of context. He denied all charges of wrongdoing and only said that in order to work at all on the Iraq subject it was necessary to get in contact with the Saddam regime, which is an experience I know even those who openly opposed Saddam made. It is also deceptive if we do not clearly distinguish between the UN investigation, known facts and the high likeliness that wrongdoings existed - which has been known for years - on the one side and unconfirmed Al-Mada lists, smear campaigns against Annan, the French, the Russians and the Vatican on the other side. I would say that it is equally important to report a widespread concern that the sanctions caused misery and the death of thousands of civilians as it is to report what a single newspaper wrote. No serious encyclopedia should base substantive parts of its articles on the speculation of a single source. Get-back-world-respect 18:56, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Once again, you seem to believe that this all stems from one article n one newspaper, it does not.

 * There are 4 investigations. The UN, the GAO, US congress, and the IGC. The GAO began its investigations while determining the resolution of Oil of Food money after the invasion and realizing that there was quite a bit of money missing and most of it went to Saddam. The congressional investigation is expanding on this. The IGC investigation is the only one which is specifically looking into charges made in the Al Mada article. The UN is doing a comprehensive investigation looking into all the charges. TDC 19:16, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * The problem is that the way you present it makes the reader think that the UN probably believe the Al-Mada is truthful, Annan corrupt and Galloway got bribed. You need to distinguish between the allegations and indicate which comes from which source. Get-back-world-respect 22:41, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just an update:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855109/

 * Well I would argue that Annan does believe that there is a good deal of truth to the AlMada list, although he would never admit as much. I personally do to believe Annan had any personal knowledge of wrongdoing before the war, but as the leader of the UN, it is inexcusable for him to have to allowed a historically unprecedented level of corruption within the organization. Annan is going to go down as the captain of the titanic unless he does something to immediately diffuse this situation and make any investigation as transparent as possible. He should not be stonewalling the GAO, and refusing to give them information needed in their investigation. TDC 14:36, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

''Members of the Iraqi National Congress and its leader Ahmed Chalabi were airlifted into southern Iraq the day Saddam's government fell. Chalabi was President Bush's guest at the State of the Union address. Even today, the INC gets $340,000 a month from the Pentagon to feed the United States intelligence information. ''

''But NBC News has learned that members of the group are now under investigation by Iraqi police in Baghdad - allegations of: abduction, robbery, stealing 11 Iraqi government vehicles, and assaulting police by firing on them during a search. ''

To quote David Kay, as mentioned in the article:

''"You know, once taken, excused," says Kay. "Twice taken you're an idiot. And I think we're now at the point of we're really an idiot."''

--Rei

 * I've run into many people, Rei, who, when you bring up Hitler, tell you how bad Stalin was. If Chalabi is proven to be everything you say he is, does that prove that nothing corrupt happened with the United Nations? Cecropia 20:04, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * No one says that nothing was wrong with the programme. What Rei and I say is that TDC is trying to write in a deceptive way here. Get-back-world-respect 21:40, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rei, if you're so upset by including unproven allegations in an encyclopedia, how are you for doing some work on the GWB article? Much of it is one long allegation whose inconclusive results are innuendo that they're really true. George W. Bush military service controversy rates an entire article of its own. ==Business and political career== is one long allegation about improprieties in his business dealings, ending up with hints that he and his brother stole the 2000 election. Afghanistan outlines other countries' and NGO groups' theories about unlawful combatants. ==Iraq== has so many unproven allegations and links its hard to pick and choose, but prominent are the complaints of disgruntled ex-officials with books to sell. When we move down to the =Links= we get such sterling examples of reportage as a site that Bush is the anti-Christ as foretold by Nostradamus.

Got your editing pencil ready, Rei? -- Cecropia 20:26, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * If you see anything unbalanced in the reporting of worldwide coverage of the 2000 presidential elections, the illegal treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo or the statements about premature plans to invade Iraq made by people who had high ranks in the Bush administration, feel free to discuss it over there . By the way, although there are many people in France and Russia criticizing Chirac for corruption, Putin for his war in Chechnia and both for other stuff, no French or Russian member of the administration ever supported your ridiculous claim that their veto threats were due to financial interests in Iraq. Is it a truely American phenomenon that people go insane when out of office? I would even support you if you want to rewrite the business allegations in a more concise way, and if there are more hatespeech links than the one I recently deleted just go ahead. If you list Is GWB a deserter? for deletion I will support you in merging it with the main article. I however would not support flooding the GWB article with 4 times as many allegations as facts. The facts hurt more 8^p Get-back-world-respect 21:40, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, since Chalabi's friends are the ones pushing the bribery claims, the ones with the supposed "documents", then yes it is relevant. If there was little to no evidence that Stalin had been butchering his own people, outside of documents that Hitler claimed to have, people would be right to be doubtful of Hitler.

 * We have a person who is, by all accounts, a complete and utter fraud. All the intelligence that the INC gave was bogus.  They strung along Judith Miller of the NYT and much of the rest of the press; they strung along congress; they strung along the executive branch.  Much of Powell's information for the UN presentation came from a single INC defector (search for "Curveball" at news.google.com).  Chalabi headed the largest single embezzling operation operation in Jordan's history - Petra Bank.  Chalabi makes no secret of his disdain for the UN and for those who opposed the war.  Etc.  --Rei

 * I've largely been staying out of the GW Bush article for a while (and I'm thinking about dropping the Kerry article as well), just because they tend to be one big free-for-all fight. But if you want to work on it, you have my blessing.  For example, that antichrist link should never be in an encyclopedia article, although the links section should be more free than the rest of the article.    Even at worst, however, the George Bush article is a quarter accusation and three quarters indisputable truth; I'd put it closer to 1:8 accusation/truth, which is quite reasonable.  As I stated before, I'd be willing to accept 1:1 here.  --Rei

 * Well, Rei (enter touchy-feely-getting-in-touch-with-my-inner-scholar mode), political discussion is an addictive poison. I got started with the GWB thing when I happened on the article and saw what a mess it was. IMO, a disgrace to an encyclopedia no matter what your political view. But I'm much happier when I'm writing about history, geneology and arcana, like the article I just started on my home town of Flatbush. I'm not recommending you give up your politics, but you wrote on some interesting subjects before--did you ever consider resuming that? (conclude touchy-feely-getting-in-touch-with-my-inner-scholar mode) Frankly, I would be amazed if a reading of Wikipedia made a net difference of a dozen votes in the coming elections, but there is a lot of material this encyclopedia needs—unfortunately a lot of what people are looking for are probably Girls Gone Wild, Paris Hilton and other nekkid people. *sigh*. I think I go to bed now. -- Cheers, Cecropia 05:33, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, I think I have owned Rei enough for one day. Time for a truce (providing she does not give me any more ammunition), and time to get started on a resolution for this.

It is going to happen one of three ways.

1. Rei and I come to an agreement on a rewritten article.

2. The Oil For Food Corruption gets its own page again. (after the VFD the consensus was to merge, not delete, but Rei’s recent actions have essential deleted the contents of the entire previous article).

3. We both agree to defer to an outside part taking control, re writing the article and agreeing to whatever comes of this.

TDC 20:39, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

I can't at this moment carefully read and comprehend everything in the discussion above, as there are so many comments interspersed with each other, etc., so I'll read it later. I've been away from a computer for the last 12 hours, and since there is so much here, I can't really tell if this is going to work or not. Two people currently support the proposal, one supports but wants to figure out if the article is split or not, and one person notes that it was probably a mistake to merge the articles in the first place. However, I will continue on the assumption that we will be able to move forward.

Therefore, I'm going to try to decipher the discussion above, and propose that for the time being we all work on one article, with the understanding that a decision about whether it stays as one article or two will have to be made later.

And, to answer Rei's specific question, I am asking that contributors only add content that they believe that all contributors will agree with. So yes, I mean material that all people agree should be in the article rather than that all people believe is true. If we can construct an article that consists of content that all can agree should be in the article, that will be the basis for further work. So yes, it means that this initial, temporary version won't contain everything -- and it may even be incomplete, but I think it is the common point of reference that is needed so that we can all move forward together.

Thanks, BCorr | Брайен 02:00, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Oil-for-Food Programme/Archive 2