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Talk:Harmony

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Tone
I find the tone (no pun intended) to be a bit colloquial at times. It also uses the second-person. It seems very unprofessional. 68.99.151.209 09:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)MT

 * I strongly agree. The definitions are extremely woolly. Take the following example:

 * (Under the heading 'Tensions): There are certain basic harmonies. A basic chord consists of three notes: the root, the third above the root, and the fifth above the root (which happens to be the minor third above the third above the root). So, in a C chord, the notes are C, E, and G. In an A-flat chord, the notes are Ab, C, and Eb.

 * Firstly, the first sentence is extremely unspecific and poorly put. Music theorist do not talk about 'basic harmonies', especially when what they are really referring to is triads. There is also no reference whatsoever to the sort of music this is referring to. The most 'basic' harmony is either the octave (or if this cannot be considered harmony) the open fifth. Pre-medieval western music was 'harmonised' often exclusively in consecutive open fifths and octaves. The triad (three note CEG chords) did not materialise in western music until later on. In some other cultures it did not appear at all. There needs to be an explanation for why the triad became the fundamental consonant sound in Western music, and therefore some reference, and ideally a notated example of the harmonic series. There are so many academic sources on this subject (in the 1000s at least) I won't bother with a link.

 * Once the reason for this emphasis on the fifth and third has been established the make of the triad can be much more easily explained. You need to talk about major and minor and what these intervals are (maybe mention systems of temperament). I know there is a lot of overlap here with other theory articles but without touching on these issues, any academically trained musician or theorist will see the article as nonsense.

 * The next paragraph opens "There are four basic "parts" in classical music-soprano, alto, tenor, and bass. Note: there can be more than one example of those parts in a given song, and there are also more parts. These are just the basic ones."
 * There are so many things wrong here. What is 'classical music' is it Chinese Classical Music? Is it music from the so-called 'Classical Era' (c. 1750-1790)? Secondly as it seems to be referring to Tonal Western Art Music in general, I would like to point out that the first sentence is entirely wrong. Whether or not a piece of music is divided into these four parts is never the same, regardless of the genre of music. Even some choral music for four voice choir is not divided this way. Then the word 'song' is used, which gives the entire paragraph the authority of a primary school project.

 * There are millions of academic sources on this subject. This passage really needs to be clearly articulated with the correct terminology and well referenced. This article starts very well, it's a shame that the rest is so bizarrely awful... Matt.kaner 13:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Dinergic
The article included the following:

 * It [harmony] is a dinergic relationship, which is the fitting and joining of often contrasting elements. It is the fundamental basis of the Golden Mean.

I think mentioning dinergy here, which is a rather obscure concept, gives it too much prominence (besides which, the article on dinergy says it is "the pattern-forming process of the union of opposites", which isn't what harmony is, it seems to me). The Golden Mean sentence seems meaningless to me. The golden mean is a middle path; I don't see as this has anything to do with harmony. (There's also the mathematical meaning of course, which also has nothing to do with conventional harmony, though it's true a small number of people have written music using a tuning system based on the golden ratio.) --Camembert

 * It's just struck me that the author may have been thinking not about musical harmony, but about harmony as a general concept. If so, maybe the above makes sense, but it really doesn't belong in this article, which is explicitly just about the musical kind of harmony. Where it might belong instead, I don't really know, but it should be linked from Harmony (disambiguation), I guess. --Camembert

 * Harmony is also in nature and humans copied that into architecture and pottery. WHEELER 15:43, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, so you didn't mean harmony in music, then? If so, that's OK, as I said, there's probably a place for what you wrote on the Wikipedia somewhere. But this page is explicitly about harmony in music, and I think it's better to keep it that way - things could get quite confusing and confused if we mix the various concepts of harmony together. Like I say, maybe it could be worked into Harmony (disambiguation) or given its own page. --Camembert

Consonance and dissonance
The following sentence:
 * Notes may be considered to be in harmony with each other when some of the harmonics of each note, especially the louder harmonics (which are often the lower ones), share the same frequency.

confuses harmony with consonance. While this is in line with non-musical uses of the term (as opposed to disharmony), in music dissonances are considered harmony as well. Wahoofive 22:10, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * How does it look now? Hyacinth 22:25, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Much better. Wahoofive 06:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Church
The influence of churches on harmonic language is overstated. Developments in harmony were due to the taste of individual composers and listeners (and patrons); although some of them were church members or clergy, there was no consistent policy on harmony from either Catholic or Protestant churches. Other aspects of music were regulated, such as instrumental accompaniment, but I'm not aware than any churches banned diminished-seventh chords or augmented sixths or whatever as a matter of church policy. Wahoofive 22:18, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * As a general example of churches controlling music Gregorian chant mentions "edicts of Rome...attempting to establish a consistent practice during this period" [400-800 CE]. Hyacinth 22:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Churches have often controlled music, but not specifically harmony, AFAIK. Wahoofive 06:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Good point. Perhaps you could remove it to talk as in the proposed policy Confirm queried sources. Hyacinth 16:43, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But churches have better documented their rules and patterns, perhaps because of their status in society at the time, not necessarily because they tried harder. This is not saying they are more important to harmony, only that due to social circumstances, their approaches are better recorded in the historical record. --76.89.189.214 (talk) 06:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Centrifugal/centripetal
''Harmony may also be distinguished as centrifugal or centripetal harmony, harmony which leads away from or to the tonic, respectively. For example, music of the classical era is most often centrifugal, while the ragtime progression is centripetal. (van der Merwe 1989)

I've never heard of this, which may not be relevant, but the examples are nonsensical. For one thing, the "ragtime progression" page states it derives from classical usage. Anyway, in what universe does harmony in classical music lead away from the tonic? Ever heard of a cadence? —Wahoofive (talk) 00:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess youll have to look up the reference before dismissing it!--Light current 01:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

How about a Google test? 36 results, none about music. That's for "centripedal". Centrifugal has only 4 results. I vote that the reference is a hoax, or at least the terms are not widely enough used to be included. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * What about the book ref? Are you going to let it go?--Light current 06:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's break this down: One can only and quickly conclude that it is "hoax". (Please note that I'm being facetious) Hyacinth 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * CONTRIBUTOR: This section was added by a contributor who has a long history of adding made up material to Wikipedia and refusing to work with others, especially Wahoofive. See: User:Hyacinth and
 * REFERENCE:The reference added is not a real book. See http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0193161214/102-4638459-8408159?n=283155
 * CONTENT: The actual content of the section, considered apart from the above, doesn't make sense. Why would one want to discuss where a chord progression is going? See: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Progress

I changed "most" to "more" as I believe that was what van der Merwe meant (and it would seem that classical era music would be centrifugal only half the time). Hyacinth 09:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * This seems like the Arabian comma mess all over again. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it true. Some books are full of shit fringe theories, and an important page like this one shouldn't give it prominence as if it were on the same level of general acceptance as Rameau or Riemann, neither of whom are is mentioned here. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * It is interesting to note the conflict which contributed to your tone in this discussion.
 * Please familiarize yourself with Verifiability: "The criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Hyacinth 09:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes well, this is under review at the moment. Watch that space!--Light current 23:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I can play rule-citing games too: see WP:NPOV, where it says
 * If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
 * My Google test was intended to show that this view is extremely minority. This article presently gives a whole section to some crank neologisms while not even mentioning the mainstream view at all. You have the strangest library, Hyacinth. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

 * You'll find mention of Rameau and Riemann on Tonality, some of which was added by me. Hyacinth 11:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove this passage for the reason that, as the difference between "centrifugal" and "centripetal" harmonies are not defined. The passage states:
 * Harmony may also be distinguished as centrifugal or centripetal harmony, harmony which leads away from or to the tonic, respectively. For example, music of the classical era is more often centrifugal, while the ragtime progression is centripetal.

It fails to explain what harmony that "leads toward a tonic" or away from it is. It's somewhat unreasonable to be making a statement like "classical music more often leads away from the tonic", because this is untrue. Even the example of a ragtime progression is a particularly common progression in classical music. There may be some distinction to be made, but there isn't even a hint of it in this article. Hyacinth, can you offer a passage from the book you have taken this material from? Does the book use it throughout, or do the words only appear once in reference to ragtime music? - Rainwarrior 17:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Single melodic line?
the line about harmony being possible in a single harmonic line could really use some clarification. I think it is by definition impossible for a single melodic line to hit harmonies. If multiple notes are being sounded together, its no longer a single melodic line. The only thing I can think is that the "harmony" could be implied, for example by playing the root note of the implied chord on the downbeat and then playing as if within that chord, but I don't think that should really count, and if that is what is being described it certainly needs clarification. I guess the other possibility is that the sentence refers to the harmonics present in the notes of the melody, but that certainly shouldn't be mentioned as harmony as it more or less renders the term meaningless. Thoughts? Powrtoch 21:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I've revised it slightly and left an example of what it was trying to describe. Also, there is a Canadian composer who has made considerable use of this technique... but I can't remember his name offhand. I'll try and remember... - Rainwarrior 00:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Found it. José Evangelista. "José Evangelista pursues an artistic path by which he has explored ways of making a music based exclusively on melody. Hence he has developed a heterophonic writing, both for instruments and orchestra, in which the melodic line generates echoes of itself and creates an illusion of polyphony." - Rainwarrior 19:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Chord (music) and Harmony
I propose that we develop some sort of standard or guideline as to what information goes on the Chord (music) and Harmony articles.

To that end I will start discussion on this talk page. It seems like the history section of Chord (music) may actually belong at Harmony, so the first change I propose is that it (Chord (music)) be moved to or discussed more fully on Harmony. Hyacinth 00:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC) I propose to use "triad" only to refer to the harmonic idea about that Gestalt founded on two vertical intervals, named, the fifth from the row, and the third, also from the row or fundamental note. It is possible understand the two inversions or rotation of that structure, 6/3 and 6/4. The musical formations with another intervals distinct from the fifth, third, i.e.,fourths, produce another klangs but not triads. (Vid. Schachter and Aldwell, Harmony and Voice Leading) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.171.231.80 (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Harmony involves both vertical harmony (chords) and horizontal harmony (melody).

Rainwarrior edits are in pursuit of a petty personal vendetta
The Rainwarrior edits are aimed at his continued months-long stalking of Bob Fink, not the interest of the article. The Rainwarrior-censored citations have been restoreed. The edits include info on ancient harmony, 3rd-party-published by Archaeologia Musicalis journal, Feb., 1988. Fink, not yet 3,000 years old, did not author the vase and wall art from ancient Egypt and Greece in the citation. But even if he did draw that ancient art, Rainwarrior does not recognize nor honour wikipedia guidelines (because they don't serve his corrupt stalking campaign) such as:

1. "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be cautious about excessive citation of your own work, which may be seen as promotional or a conflict of interest." (For Rainwarrior's obsessive targeting of Fink, perhaps even ONE citation would be "excessive." Greenwyk 07:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You added about a hundred links to your website to wikipedia. I think that classifies as linkspam. You should read the external linking guidelines (WP:EL) which say:

 * "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it."

 * Post the link here on the talk page, and if someone else thinks it's relevant they can add it. - Rainwarrior 08:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

100 links? Or 100 edits? Which? If links, add the URLs or names of the articles of where they are to prove your claim. 100 links seems exaggerated to me. Greenwyk 09:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * User:Tom harrison/external links counts 136 links to your website from Wikipedia. Putting greenwych.ca into the search box will find them for you. The edit histories show when the link was added and by what IP address, and the total contributions of each of these IP addresses may be checked. Almost all of them were added by the 65.255.255.* IP addresses you use, and their contribution histories consistently edit the same material at the same pages.

 * Now, you've added your articles as "further reading", but why? There are thousands of books and articles on harmony and on its history. What's so special about yours? Should we have every author who has written on harmony cite their article here? - Rainwarrior 17:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Rainwarrior continues vendetta: vandalizes relevant citations
There is no justified reason to remove legitimate secondary citations, no matter who places them. They show the discovery of two recent items of evidence for ancient harmony. Citations cannot be removed for reasons of personal hostility to a single person. There must be a specific reason given relating to the good of the subject of the article, not based on the subject of Rainwarrior's sick, tortured, irrational hatred of Bob Fink's research, with no reasoned, cited justifications given for it. That censorship vandalism will be reverted until the end of time. 65.255.225.52 01:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The action described above is known as edit warring, which can result in a user being blocked from editing. Wikipedia has a guideline of consensus. I suggest that the anonymous present his or her case for the inclusion of these links. I further recommend that the user consult Wikipedia's code of conduct policy. The statement made above is clearly inappropriate. Victoriagirl 05:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

 * To Victoriagirl: I'm sorry, but I must disagree. I have been under attack from Rainwarrior for months. He exhibits all the facets described in Wikipedia of a troll, a disrupter, and a harasser, but he also does it as a "creative troll," as Wikipedia puts it -- in this case being offensive in a mild-mannered way designed to provoke me or others to blow their top. People can take only so much insult and hassle.

 * You can see the evidence for all this at Talk:Musical_acoustics. In that Talk (quite long), Rainwarrior has been accused (not by me only) of being offensive toward me. I'm only human. I will not tolerate lies, distortions, misrepresentations about myself, my motives, without serious specific evidence being presented. Search the thousands of words, and you'll see Rainwarrior's evidence of anything against me is ONLY his own suspicions, but he never cites anything real, hard or true. On the other hand, when evidence is presented that contradicts his suspicions, he ignores it, refuses to address it, and moves on to other accusations or subjects. INDEED he himself has proposed in the various Talk pages that my citations should be secondary sources, not links to my own webpages. Fine. I provided these in the "Further Reading" here. But now, even that isn't good enough.

 * Wikipedia mades provisions for secondary sources to be provided by authors, even if they have a played a role in the article's findings. Wikipedia reports that material can be cited, and the author can edit "in the Third Person" -- of course with care. Rainwarrior observes none of these guidelines or policies regarding me. Only the ones that suit his attack.

 * There is ample evidence of provocation and bad faith on his part -- IF you read the whole of his manner of operating at Musical acoustics. There are two sides to every story. You will also see that Rainwarrior is always far more interested in me than in the article. If an edit I made over the year or so has stood unchallenged, Wiki/Consensus says: "Silence equals consent" is the ultimate measure of consensus -- somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process." (BTW, that "silence" thing is a point of view that Rainwarrior has already said, when it was convenient to him, is "ludicrous" at Talk:Divje_Babe).

 * But when you're faced with a person whose apparent goal is clearly to track down every edit, word and link I have placed, there can never be consensus, because there can never be that "silence" from Rainwarror to allow a consensus. In plain English, "he is out to get me." He refuses to reply to any offer (made twice) to negotiate, nor to find a common ground in good faith that represents even part of -- as Wiki puts it --"the interests of both parties." CATCH 22! I have no choice but to revert the vandalism -- which, if vandalism, is not subject to the "3-revert rule." So let's go to a mediator or arbitrator and let's find out if it's vandalism. Ask Rainwarrior if he'll go to mediation. Or arbitration?-- I will.

 * Wikipedia has pointed out that authors may edit material about themselves in a small way -- and can also revert vandalism. Since the Rainwarrior edits are targeting me almost wholly, and invariably vandalize what little editing Wikipedia allows a scholar involved in the contents of the article itself to still edit (that is, if one of the duly published scholars in a discussion on a particular subject in an article also edits). But Rainwarrior never recognizes anything in the guidelines that favours me even existing at all as an minor editor in musicology pages. Most such edits were made earlier through 2006 by my publisher and a few others. They didn't know the rules, but we have offered to replace any links that break the rules with other links publishing our research that do not break the rules. Ask Rainwarrior why he seems to not accept that.

 * Rainwarrior has falsely also said my views are not notable, but a look in the references in my bio page, for which you did the "cleanup" will show that is indeed false. You don't get invited to write an article for a world conference on music archaeology by the conference organizers and editors if not notable; Or published in other peer-reviewed journals, or receive scores or hundreds of good reviews of your work (along with published dissent too, replying against your ideas) from other notable people in the field -- if you're not notable as well. Or get invited by Nature journal, the leading science journal in the world, to be a juror regarding ancient music -- if you're not notable. There is no reason to remove the secondary links.

 * Regarding the "case" you asked for, to show why the links should be there, I already made that case above for those secondary sources. But I'll repeat it here. Since those links Rainwarrior removed are not to webpages I own, nor are they an "External link" -- I don't have to beg "permission" to enter them in an edit. But here's the case anyway: The "Evidence link" reports the famous work, in the Archaeology/Assyrian field, of Professor Anne D. Kilmer deciphering the stone tablet, 4000 years old, as markings that describe the music and words to the oldest known song. And the song was in harmony. Visit the link to see, if you wish. In that link, my own discovery -- found in ancient artworks depicting musicians -- was to note that this art has strong clues that harmony existed at the time the art was made. These discoveries were also supported by Kilmer in one of her articles in her Assyriology research. (She was head of the Assyriology Dept at University of California at Berkeley before retiring.)

 * She visited me in Canada for a week, to compare notes. She favourable reviewed my book The Origin of Music. If you want a reference on my "worth" -- of which Rainwarrior will admit there is none -- I'll give you Kilmer's phone number, and you can phone her -- or e-mail her. Whatever you wish. I am the victim of a scurrilous injustice and waste of time from Rainwarrior's behavior, and I can prove it to anyone who will act on my evidence of that.

 * So on all these grounds, I will revert the edit because it is vandalism. My lack of civility was because I'm trying to share my life's work and research, and being harassed and disrupted in that. So I'm ready to go to a mediator, or and arbitration over this. If Wikipedia wants to allow trolls to chase away scholars and knoweldgeable people who may be able to make articles better, then let's find out where they will draw the line: On his or my side.

 * As to Rainwarrior's edit being because I'm engaged in self-promotion? Why are those secondary links different from any other scholar who cites secondary sources of his/her work?  They are allowed to do it by the guidelines. What POV is there? -- Only that the source is a publication of Bob Fink's discoveries and research on harmony? Is being Bob Fink wrong in itself? -- Just "advertising myself"?  How on earth can it be? Just because Rainwarrior asserts it? If so then every such author is "advertising"!

 * At age 71, Most of my books are sold out. 30 or so left. I have already made arrangements to give up my copyrights into the public domain because of my age. I don't have much "future" left. So, what point is there for self-promotion? To get a better job? I'm retired. I can barely walk. -- I have been doing musicological research for a half-century on the origins of music. As said, I've written several books, been published in peer-reviewed journals and books and other secondary literature; and so on. My books are in hundreds of libraries. (I can name their on-line catalogue listings.) See also the "notability" section in Talk:Musical_acoustics.

 * But it was in vain. Rainwarrior has been advised of the facts of that publishing record many times, and knows that they are true. And I can prove them. So: The idea (or that of my publisher or supporters of my views) that our sincere desire to share the findings of my published research and knowledge with others (through relevant musicology pages in Wikipedia), represents only mercenary "POV pushing," or "Spam" is absurd & pointless -- I can only interpret it as a desire of Rainwarrior's to pursue only the censorship of that research. He can find only those rules that seem to serve that end.

 * I will e-mail you Prof. Kilmer's phone number. If you provide an e-mail address. Or Professor Bonnie Blackwell (who radiocarbon-dated the age of the Neanderthal "flute"). You also can read what they say about my work at the external links on the Bob_Fink page. All you have to do is visit those links, and decide for yourself, after reading them as well as the accuations and bad faith Rainwarrior showed me Talk:Musical_acoutics -- if you're interested -- and decide for yourself. Anyway I'm not tolerating it anymore. I'm not a punching bag. It's an uncalled for campaign of personal attack, very pretend-"civil" but abusive to me nonetheless. -- Best wishes, Bob Fink, at 65.255.225.36 08:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You may disagree with them, but the edits in question  cannot in any way be considered vandalism. Simply put, nothing resembling them is described in the rather long list of examples provided in Wikipedia's official policy on the matter. In fact, your accusation that Rainwarrior has been harrassing clearly falls under what vandalism is not. You'll note that the very same section provides a link to the dispute resolution pages. The fact remains that there is obviously no consensus as to whether the references in question should be included. In fact, there has been no response to the call for comment made by Rainwarrior in removing these articles. I suggest that the question be reworded and included for discussion on this page. Silence is, quite obviously, not the only sign of consensus. I don't for a moment agree that consensus cannot be reached because one or two people are particularly vocal - this has not been my experience. Nor can I accept the behaviour of one member as an excuse for the lack of civility displayed by another, particularly when it runs counter to the code of conduct policy. Victoriagirl 17:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It clearly says in the "types of vandalism" you cited, right in the top paragraph: "Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary."  Assertions  of self-promotion are not "valid." That assertion is false. There is no evidence given. Unless you believe that ANY author who posts a link to a publication of his/her research relevant to the article is always to be considered "self-promoting"? Do you believe that? Look at the link and see. After all, Wiki goes on to say that "removals are usually not considered to be vandalism where the reason for the removal of the content is readily apparent by examination of the content itself." (Added italics.) What, in the readily apparent content, "promotes me?" That a peer-reviewed journal published my research (and Kilmer's) on harmony (which is the title of this wiki article)? Where in Wikipedia does only an authorship by-line of published content alone constitute self-promotion? Bob F. 65.255.225.38 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * In dismissing my concerns you quote the Wikipedia policy on vandalism, to which I referred: "Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary." With all due respect, Rainwarrior has twice provided edit summaries indicating the reasoning behind the removal of the links in question. I consider these concerns valid. While I don't for a moment believe that a user who posts a reference to his or her own research is necessarily committing an act of self-promotion, I most certainly recognize a very real possibility. To cite oneself, to add one's name to an article as the author of two of nine articles considered to be "Further reading", is a rather bold act. There is nothing wrong with this - after all, Wikipedia encourages bold editing, but one must expect to be challenged. Again, I encourage you to seek consensus on this issue. Victoriagirl 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Request to add external links
(Okay -- will ask again. Moved down again, and updated): 2 titles (as published by secondary sources) in "Further Reading"  could be usefully accessed on-line, at the webpages mentioned below. These would be: Those publisheres have no on-line versions of those articles. But as I own the online website which reproduces those articles, in order to avoid COI, even though the content was published in 2nd or 3rd-party journals, I ask someone else to add the online content to "external links" as well.
 * 1) On-line essay: Evidence of Harmony in Ancient Music, --publ by Archaeologia Musicalis journal, Feb., 1988 by the "Study Group on Music Archaeology" of the Int'l Council on Traditional Music). Publ: Moeck Verlag, Celle, Geermany. Study of oldest known song
 * 2) Role of the drone in the evolution of counterpoint & harmony published in Onlook, Summer, 2002, Four Winds Centre, Farnham, Surrey. UK, p. 21-22.

Reasons to add: The "Evidence" link reports the Kilmer evidence in the "oldest known song" (+midi of that song version) and reports research finding new evidence of ancient harmony, from observing clues found in ancient art (wall art, vases, etc) showing musicians playing harps. This evidence is well-known and widely accepted in the music archaeology field, but far less known among those in the musicology fields. --Bob F. 65.255.225.37 10:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * These topics may be tangentially related to "harmony", but I don't think they're relevant enough for "further reading" here. Even if the topics are relevant enough, there are plenty of other (less obscure) articles by other authors about these same subjects that you could cite instead without being in a potential conflict of interest. - Rainwarrior 05:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Rainwarrior, the 3-revert rule, the spirit & letter of the rules
Rainwarrior has again proved his interest is not in the article, but only in his desire to censor the research of Bob Fink. His last comment above contains two untruths, a common feature of his remarks.

He writes: "...there are plenty of other (less obscure) articles by other authors about these same subjects..." which is not true, and he cannot name them. Other authors may have written on the evidence I discovered from ancient art that show clues to harmony in antiquity, but he cannot name ANY. His claim that the evidence of ancient harmony is "tangentially relevant" to the subject of "harmony" is also untrue, on the face of it.

He is a troll who loves to repeatedly claim my actions as w/COI, and as violations of w/auto and wiki/POV and so on, that I am a rule-breaker & a spammer. But he himself rigidly and fixatedly interprets wiki-rules to suit his own personal obsessiveness with me as an author editing and citing my own sources (quoted above) -- even though, if I cite them using secondary sources they would be acceptable under the rules (also quoted above in the Talk).

But he has now violated my right to do that by censoring (from "Further Reading") even the secondary sources, thus ''writing his own Wikipedia rules to the effect that no author can ever edit or cite his/her own work ever!!! And now himself breaking the spirit of the rules he pretends to "respect."

Rainwarrior is therefore totally hypocritical and his judgement has apparently become deeply corrupted by his fanatic hatred of all things related to Bob Fink. What's THAT got to do with "Harmony"??

Here is how Wikipedia describes a troll (below), which can be compared to Rainwarrior by simply reading the (unfortunately, quite long) argumentative, untruthful, hostile, self-contradictory, sneakily abusive, provocatively slanderous, and "creative" writings by Rainwarrior on various Talk pages. (These are pages, which as a musicologist I have been mildly active, as has my publisher been earlier a year ago, when none of us were aware of all the rules (Talk:Musical_acoustics, here, Talk:Divje_Babe Talk:Trio_theory) and some others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_is_a_troll When reading any of the TALK pages, note the similarity of the Wiki descriptions to Rainwarrior's approach. (Emph. added) --Bob Fink 65.255.225.47 14:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "Trolling refers to deliberate and intentional attempts to disrupt the usability of Wikipedia for its editors, administrators, developers, and other people who work to create content for and help run Wikipedia. Trolling is deliberate violation of the implicit rules of Internet social spaces. It necessarily involves a value judgement made by one user about the value of another's contribution. (Because of this it is considered not to be any more useful than the judgement 'I don't agree with you' by many users, who prefer to focus on behaviors instead of on presumed intent.)... The defining characteristic of a troll in this case is not the content of the edit, but the behavior in discussing the edit, and the refusal to consider evidence and citations or to accept consensus or compromise....The nature of trolling is to be disruptive, and one of the most disruptive things that can be done is to find new ways to cause trouble that aren't quite against the rules. No matter how great your definition of trolling may be, a dedicated troll will find something you haven't thought of yet." Wiki continues:
 * 2) "This, then, is something of a catch-all category -- if a user is being continually disruptive, and no amount of politeness, consensus, mediation, or anything else is reining them in, they are trolling." (NOTE: I have repeatedly offered to correct any citations that were not secondary sources since some may have been mistakenly placed last year; twice offered to negotiate Rainwarrior's demands, but he has refused to reply. He also is virtually never specific, but vague when asked questions.) Wikipedia Continues:
 * 3) * "When a user, in a conflict of any sort, insists on the letter of a rule while grossly violating its spirit, this is often a sign of trolling.... Of course, sometimes trolls cannot be ignored without compromising the integrity of an article" -- particularly in the case of "edit war trolling" ALL of which edit-wars Rainwarrior has started' in order to provoke disruption and endless debate.

 * I will begin by pointing out that in no way has Rainwarrior's most recent edit violated Three revert rule which states that "an editor must not perform more than three reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Wikipedia page within a 24 hour period (emphasis mine). The edit in question is the first made by Rainwarrior in five days. This accusation is as baseless as the previous charge of vandalism.

 * I suggest the author of these two references present his arguments for inclusion under a separate section. As it is, they are hidden within rather long posts containing incorrect accusations and lacking in civility.

 * I regret that I must again refer the user to the code of conduct policy. Victoriagirl 17:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to the above
Note -- from Wiki, re civility: "...incivility is roughly defined as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress..." That's a definition that Wikipedia seems to accept. If so, then Rainwarrior has been uncivil to me for months.

I have offered evidence of that, in the Talk pages I mentioned. Was that read by Victoriagirl? Or is the charge of incivility being hurled only at me without looking open-mindedly and fairly at ALL the evidence? As I quoted above: "The nature of trolling is to be disruptive, and one of the most disruptive things that can be done is to find new ways to cause trouble that aren't quite against the rules." Well, I think Rainwarrior has done that in this case. The three-revert rule is mentioned on many Wiki pages. Perhaps the page I read some time ago didn't include the full definition or the 24-hour limit. But Rainwarrior breaks more rules than that one.

Rainwarrior continually calling my motivations as "self-promotion" without offering any evidence and without assuming good faith (especially in light of me admitting that as newbies, mistakes were made about posting links a lonmg time ago) is evidence of provocation, no? And it's provoking especially since NO ONE can read minds and motivation, and especially since the evidence I ask to be read indicates when taken as a whole that self-promotion is inconsistent with my character and life history -- to an unbiased onlooker.

Rainwarrior has never written anywhere in all these thousands of words that it is even possible that self-promotion was not my motivation (as "good faith' would indicate). And considering that every edit war on the pages mentioned was started with bad-faith edits by Rainwarrior, by assuming the worst motivations on my part -- and which "wars" were never started by me -- check out the facts, and find out what is the whole truth, rather than seizing upon a "technicality" that captures the literal words of a guideline -- thus insisting  "on the letter of a rule while grossly violating its spirit,"  which seems here to be used to protect Rainwarrior's bad-faith "mind-reading summaries" for his edits. So that means I too can revert as many times as Rainwarrior if I wait 25 hours for the third edit?

Interesting that none of the other points I made are considered or dealth with. Just the one defending how to "legally" get away with the reverts Rainwarrior targeted at me rather than for the good of the article. Very one-sided "cherry-picking" approach, don't you think? Please examine your arguments in the light of all the evidence and the spirit of the issue? Is that possible to do? The rules were not meant to be used as a weapon to chase scholars away, or to target individual editors. They are being used, however, exactly as such, whether you can see that or not. I've lived long enough, as a Jew, as a civil rights & social-justice activist to recognize when I am being screwed.

It is important to look at a situation as a whole, yes? Namely, keeping in mind, as the Wiki/troll page wrote: "the refusal (by Rainwarrior) to consider evidence and citations or to accept consensus or compromise." And mindful of basic ethics of seeing the spirit as well as ONLY the technicality of the issue and the rules. Anyway, in keeping with the technicality of "24 hours" that I missed up to now, I will remove my accusation. But the rest of my points remain unaddressed, unrecognized, unconsidered, marginalized or ignored. But. Suit yourselves. "The tree that cannot bend with the wind -- breaks." (anon.) --Bob Fink, 65.255.225.42 21:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * While it is appropriate to remove the false accustations, it is clearly inappropriate to rewrite one's post, particularly after it has received a response from another user. This is not the first time I have had to address this issue.

 * And, as I have said before, do I feel that the behaviour of one user as an excuse for another's incivility.

 * I am aware of conflict between two other users and see I see no value in passing comment on past grievances. My focus concerns two references once provided under "Further reading" and whether or not they should be included in the article. May we please address this issue. Victoriagirl 22:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Clearly this is becoming hopeless. In the same code of conduct you refer to, it says:
 * "Strike offensive words or replace them with milder ones on talk pages...."
 * "Remove offensive comments on talk pages (since they remain in the page history, anyone can find them again or refer to them later on)"
 * Therefore, I did so. But now you say doing what the rules suggest be done is "innappropriate"? Can't win, can I?
 * You wrote: "I see no value in passing comment on past grievances." But you have passed conclusions upon them (e.g., validating above the false claims of my so-called "self-promotion" against all evidence -- evidence which you won't read). Not reading the evidence yet making conclusions? I think that is "innappropriate." And it also makes my attempts at rational discourse impossible and futile.
 * Don't you subscribe to the common notion of fairness that there are two (or more) sides to every case? But you buy into Rainwarrior's conclusions in his edit summary without demanding evidence, but refuse all my conclusions even though I do invariably provide evidence, and even quotes from Wiki -- which you ignore or dismiss. Double standard, yes? --Bob F., 65.255.225.50 05:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed, this is indeed becoming rather hopeless. What was once acknowledged as a false accusation, is now considered to fall under the definition of an offensive comment (and so, is open to revision). I beg to differ. To say that another user has violated a policy may be misguided and incorrect, but it is not offensive. It is, in fact, an error.

 * I must address the comment that I am not reading what has been termed the "evidence". How has this conclusion been reached? In fact I have read the past exchanges on this discussion page and others. Clearly I have raised considerable disappointment in choosing not to comment. Again, the issue under discussion is whether or not two articles should be included in the entry under "Further reading".

 * Thus far my comments have concerned the articles in question and Rainwarrior's edits : I have twice pointed out that they cannnot be considered vandalism (as was charged), I have written that these same edits are not in violation of the three-revert rule  (as was charged). I have also expressed the opinion that there is validilty to Rainwarrior's concerns. Aswritten above, I don't believe that a user who posts a reference to his or her own work is necessarily committing an act of self-promotion, however, it is a bold act. While Wikipedia encourages bold editing, one must expect to be challenged.

 * My suggestion, twice made, that consensus be sought on this issue, has been met by silence. I again recommend this process be used as a means of moving forward. Victoriagirl 18:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Why some cultures use harmony in their music and others don't
This subject interests me and I was hoping to find some discussion here. Harmony seems to be far more prevalent in western culture than it is in eastern culture. I've been told there are eastern languages that have no word for harmony in their vocabulary. If anyone could shed some insight on this subject, I believe it would improve the article. Grumpyoldgeek 03:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Why did Tibetan monks develop overtone singing and no one else? Why did Australians develop the boomerang and no one else? Why do only some cultures use feet and inches for measurement? Why did the Egyptians build pyramids and no one else? In all these cases, probably what happened is somebody happened to invent it and certain influential people thought it was a great idea and encouraged others to adopt it. While Western music has developed harmony, other cultures have gone further with rhythms and tuning systems. No one really knows why. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Firstly, your pedantic-almost-to-the-point-of-insulting tone does nothing to clarify the issue. You could have simply said "I don't know".  Or since you don't know, remain silent.  Secondly, a small amount of research suggests that there are at least some theories. The Origin and Character of Authentic Chinese Church Music  Grumpyoldgeek 05:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree, Grumpyoldgeek. It is actually a very important issue and that seems poorly addressed in any of the wikipedia music theory definitions/entries. None of them seem to emphasise sufficiently (in my view) that most of the systems discussed refer to European musical practices only. It is a gross simplification to suggest that Western music has developed harmony whereas others have focussed more or aspects of rhythm and tuning(!).
 * In Indian and other South Asian Art Music forms, to take one example, there is a much stronger emphasis on melodic lines played in conjunct motion. (All of what follows is extremely generalised by the way! - but there is an enormous amount of academic writing on the subject - on Grove Music Online for example) This music is almost always improvised, with very few elements decided beforehand. The 'pitch' element of the music is defined by a seven degree scale or rāga (similar in some ways to our seven note major/minor scales and church modes, however there are in fact several hundred different rāgas). Melodic improvisation takes place along the pitches defined in this scale above a drone - which is always note 1 of the scale or the sdja, (i.e. the "tonic"). Therefore "harmonies" occur constantly in this music, in the broader sense of the term, i.e. different pitches sound simultaneously. However, as the music is not notated beforehand, they are always incidental and never goal directed, and the bass note beneath them does not change.
 * This is not that far apart from the "Coordinate harmony" that Dahlhaus refers to in Studies in the Origin of Harmonic Tonality. In early Western music, music was composed 'horizontally' and taught in terms of intervals, rather than chords. Melodic lines were combined according to certain rules of consonance and dissonance, but not in terms of chord progressions. Eventually, this system led to a preference for certain harmonic patterns, and composers began using certain chord progressions deliberately, which in very simple terms resulted in tonality. In any case, this all had to do with the preference for notated music in the West, and a more rigid/prescriptive type of composition. When I get the time I would like to add something about this to a few of the articles. It's a shame not to, because it takes away the authority of the definitions by making them seem like they are describing the systems used in all music. If it was clearly pointed out that they refer specifically to Western Art Music from (in this case) c. 1500 - onwards, they would instantly become more specific and accurate defintions. Matt.kaner 14:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Intervals
This section is so odd. What exactly is anyone supposed to learn from this table? In addition, the characters used for sharp and flat do not adhere to the music guidlines. Matt.kaner 03:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite
I think there are enough problems on this page to merit a complete rewrite. Though some of the info is factually accurate it is lacking in sources/references, and the overall structure of the article makes for very bad reading. I think it is a given that there will be some overlap between this article and 'Chords', but if you look at various musicological encyclopedias and dictionaries, this is perfectly normal. In fact articles on 'Harmony' usually form the bulk of the info on the subject. There doesn't seem to be (correct me if i'm wrong) a unified article on Western Harmonic Practice anywhere on Wikipedia; it's all very bitty - and while it's essential to have these specialised articles on Augmented Sixth chords, for example, there is nothing to explain the general application of the harmonic system in western art music. Matt.kaner 18:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Where are these spots of coverage of "Western Harmonic Practice" and where would they be compiled? Hyacinth (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

 * This article contains too many chunks of various poorly-written freshman music theory term papers, which makes this article stilted, uneven and unintentionally comical. For example, "There is no doubt, nevertheless, that the emphasis on the...."  Tom NM (talk) 12:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Diatonic and chromatic
The article uses the term "chromatic" without adequate explanation. This term, along with "diatonic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! –  Noetica ♬♩ Talk 22:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Harmony in the background sense
harmony may be

accord, affinity, amicability, amity, compatibility, concord, conformity, consensus, consistency, cooperation, correspondence, empathy, fellow-feeling, friendship, good will, kinship, like-mindedness, peace, rapport, sympathy, tranquility, unanimity, understanding, unity

[Origin: 1350–1400; ME armonye < MF < L harmonia < Gk harmonía joint, framework, agreement, harmony, akin to hárma chariot, harmós joint, ararískein to join together]

1. agreement; accord; harmonious relations. 2. a consistent, orderly, or pleasing arrangement of parts; congruity. 3. Music. a. any simultaneous combination of tones. b. the simultaneous combination of tones, esp. when blended into chords pleasing to the ear; chordal structure, as distinguished from melody and rhythm. c. the science of the structure, relations, and practical combination of chords.

4. an arrangement of the contents of the Gospels, either of all four or of the first three, designed to show their parallelism, mutual relations, and differences. see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/harmony

i think the Harmony page should start from a backgrounder if nobody has an objection then i will edit the background of this page please note that the harmony page is linked with the peace page  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Motegole (talk • contribs) 08:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

 * The correct place for this is Harmony (disambiguation). Rootless 18:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Intervals Section - relevance?
Can I ask what the point of the Intervals section is, particularly from the passage beginning:

In the musical scale, there are twelve pitches...

I have not deleted it, however I am very tempted to do so, because it doesn't really seem to relate to this article. Perhaps in another article? Can we have a consensus? Madder 16:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, I'll give you my opinion. I wrote the Intervals section, and I admit that I didn't write it well at all. It was one of my first Wiki contribs, and it sucked quite honestly. I would encourage someone to re-write it if they want to, or I will when I have time to mull it over and do it properly. However, as far as the specific point over whether it relates to the article: harmony cannot exist without intervals. When two distinct (by which I mean different) pitches are sounded, the interval between them is what creates harmony. Harmony and interval relationships are inseparable, because they're one and the same. So absolutely, a section explaining intervals is relevant. However, the way in which I went about explaining it in my contrib wasn't so great. Again, I would encourage a competent and learned musician to do a re-write, or wait and I'll do it. Piercetheorganist 02:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I will say one other thing, which is that Wikipedia is a learning reference, and will serve its best use to the public if Average Joe can come along and glean complete information from non-confusing articles. My ideal is this: say a churchgoing person, one who has very limited musical knowledge, wants to learn how to sing the alto/tenor/bass/whatever line in hymns, so that he/she can feel more "one with God" on Sunday mornings. I want for that person to be able to look at this article, and come away with a clear idea of how harmonies work, so that he/she can practice singing them. The one--and only--thing which creates the alto, tenor, and bass lines are the fact that they're pitched at an interval to the melody (soprano) line. Again, intervals and harmonies are one and the same. For the large percentage of the population who struggles with learning things "by ear", a comfortably firm understanding of interval relationships is (along with practice thereafter) the magic key to unlocking the ability to "hear" (discern) harmonies. That's why I think it's important to keep the section in question, but to rewrite it. Piercetheorganist 02:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Harmony in non-Western music
What may the study of harmony in non-Western music be called, if such a thing may be considered to exist (which it sometimes is)? Hyacinth 15:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "The study of harmony in Western Music may often refer to the study of harmonic progressions."

 * I'm not aware of any non-Western tradition (unless you count jazz) where harmony (i.e. triadic harmony), and chord progressions are studied at all. Indian Classical Music never refers to harmony as a real entity in its music, (it only occurs as an accident of interwoven improvised lines on a fixed mode), Japanese, African and Chinese music (to my knowledge) are all fairly similar in this respect. There is a mouth organ used in Japanese gagaku court music called the sho, but the chords used don't really "progress" from one to the next, they're best seen as static colours that just shift gradually. None of them are triads and many of them are cluster chords. Come to think of it, I can't really think of any "true" non-Western Music where harmony is studied per se. I guess an experienced ethnomusicologists would have a definitive answer though. Matt.kaner 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does this article seem incredibly biased towards western harmony, and within that, towards historical harmony...i.e. not only does this article seem to include stuff most relevant to western music, but it doesn't even seem to encompass modern western music, jazz, etc, let alone anything that falls outside of the 12-tone equally tempered system (such as Indian classical music, Javanese Gamelan, very early western music, etc.)??? I am tempted to add another cleanup tag. Cazort 18:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

 * True, the article should cover any style of music that uses harmony *as harmony* - but I understand that harmony, in world-music terms, is actually a pretty rare phenomenon, and that a lot of music may use scales and melodies out of which one may (using Western ways of thinking) draw harmonic inferences, but that this music doesn't really use a concept of harmony as usually defined. So the failure to mention certain musics like Indian, Javanese, etc. may simply be because harmony is not a relevant concept to them.

 * In short, I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to talk about harmony at all without a strongly Western bias. M.J.E. 04:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree. 'Non-western' musical traditions very rarely place any emphasis on harmony (or 'verticals') at all, and certainly tend not to study it, nor view it as a viable means of analysing musical structure. This in itself is something that ought to be discussed in the article however. -- Matt.kaner (talk) 20:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no musical tradition where the horizontal relations are not considered. I assume that "harmony as 'harmony'" means tonality, a page you should all consult (roughly: certain hierarchical relationships of pitches). Only one decision needs to be made:
 * Does the term harmony apply only to certain horizontal relationships, tonality, or does it apply to all horizontal relationships?

All current sources assert that "harmony" applies to all horizontal relationships, not just tonal harmony. Hyacinth (talk) 20:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Hyacinth you are missing the point here. We are talking largely about vertical relationships for starts. Secondly the questions you are asking imply that we as Wikipedians make some serious value judgements. That is not our place. If this is to be a serious article all we need to do is cite the debates surrounding these ideas. We aren't meant to make any kinds of decisions at all. I do not know any sources currently in print that assert that "harmony" applies to all horizontal relationships. (The sound made by a car driving past your house then followed by a bus driving past would fall in to this category). However, I think you'll find that most of them say that harmony is a means of codifying vertical relationships and implied vertical relationships however. In many musics the consideration of vertical pitch is not considered to be particularly pertinent. What are you really digging at? Matt.kaner (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

intransigent
How can the note names ABC etc be 'intransigent' ie "Refusing to moderate a position, especially an extreme position; uncompromising"  Is this a technical use of the word, or just the wrong word? I would have thought they were 'arbitrary"... or do you just mean they don't change? Wreader 20:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I think someone with ESL is contributing to the article and occasionally making mistakes. Hyacinth (talk) 20:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Definitions
Cited definitions of music:
 * "We define harmony today as a vertical combination of tones, or notes heard simultaneously. Melody is a horiztonal organizations of notes, or notes occurring consecutively over time." Jamini, Deborah (2005). Harmony and Composition: Basics to Intermediate, p.147. ISBN-10: 1412033330.

Blind Guardian
Why does the metal band Blind Guardian link to this page? Seems pointless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.65.9.247 (talk) 04:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

In music the pitch allow pieces of music to come together when it is all finished. The pitch is considered to represent the perceived fundamental frequency of a sound. It is basically one of the three major auditory attributes of sounds along with loudness and timbre. The pitch broken apart is actually the harmony and melody. Before finding what allows harmony and melody to form music, there is a way that the two develop by themselves before joining. Harmony be consider “The clothing of melody”; which is considered rather too wide and calls for a little limitation. In this element the “voices” or “parts” that accompany the chief one inevitably produce, amongst themselves and with I, a succession of chords. This chordal aspect of the combination of voices or parts which is properly described as the elements of harmony. (SCHOLES, 444) The chords in harmony tend to exist in a scale-tonal infrastructure. It is said that certain chords project a quality and instability and tension as well as are known as dissonant chords while other chords project a quality of stability and respose are known as consonant chords. In harmony chords require at least three different tons in their structure. The three- tone chord is like a triad and can contain as few as three tones as well as many as seven or more. In developing harmony the commonly structured four-tone and five-tone chord which is called a 9th chord; a more elaborate chords are 11th chords(six-tone chords) and 13th chords(seven-tone chords). Harmony is basically constructed from the raw materials of scale tone, which in result has a scale infrastructure and tonal attributes of the major-minor tonal system. The chord in this element may be built on each scale degree (tone) of the equal-tempered scales of Western music. As the harmony is still in development each scale degree may serve as the root of a chord to be built on that particular scale degree. In the scales of western music of harmony there are seven different general interval distances (2nds, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 5ths, 7ths octaves) as well as four different specific interval qualities – major, minor, diminished, augmented. Also part of the development of harmony are two specific qualities of third intervals – major 3rd and minor 3rd. because of these two intervals, there are four different triad qualities – major, minor, diminished, augmented. Harmony can be subjected to the gravitational forces of the major –minor tonal system. Listed below are the different chords, scale degree and intervals use in putting together harmony.

•	The tonic chord (I) – this is considered the major minor tonal system chord with the greatest stability and gravitational attraction, which is based upon the lowest scale degree (tone). •	Dominant Chord (V) – this chord is considered the second greatest stability and gravitational attraction which is the fifth scale degree. •	Subdominant Chord (IV) - this chord in harmony is the third greatest stability and gravitational attraction which is the fourth scale degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.206.73.205 (talk) 15:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Roman numeral analysis
One of the fundamental constructs in the study of harmony is Roman numeral analysis. Roman numeral analysis emerged in the 19th as a way to codify elements in earlier 18th century music, abstracting vertical relationships in music as chords. Modern scholarship has criticized this as being problematic in that it could be an oversimplistic account of vertical relationships in music (Parncutt 89). Nevertheless, Roman numeral analysis has proven quite effective as a tool for uncovering certain relationships in music and is quite interesting in its own right. We should therefore discuss it in the article.

I also propose an extended discussion on psychoacoustic models of harmony as well as sensory vs. syntactic accounts of harmony in music. (Parncutt, 89; Bigand 2003) Just a thought 165.124.212.109 (talk) 03:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Chords and tension : grammar and content
"In tertian or tertial harmony, so named after the interval of a third. The members of chords are found and named by stacking intervals of major and minor thirds, starting with the "root", then the "third" above the root, and the "fifth" above the root (which is a third above the third), etc. (Note that chord members are named after their interval above the root, not by their numerical inclusion in the building of the chord.) Traditionally, a triad must have, or imply at least three members to be called a chord, although 2-member dyads are sometimes treated as chords, especially in rock (see power chords)."

Before I edit the sub-heading content, a note here is in consideration of any further discussion inclusive to the reasons for edits.

The first sentence is not complete.

Major intervals may be altered to be augmented, diminished and/or minor. It is suffice, especially for the divulgence into the specifics of tertian harmony, to introduce the stacking as purely a third relation.

It is also suffice to say "(Note that chord members are named after their interval above the root)." The use of "numerical inclusion" is vague, if not confusing and misleading. Having stated "starting with the 'root'", sufficient basis is presented with "(Note that chord members are named after their interval above the root)." to show the method of building chords in the order they are reckoned with respect to proper spelling.

The last sentence here is the worst. A triad is always a chord with three members. Dyads (or intervals), the simplest chords, always contain two members. The introduction of "rock", aside from being a bastardization of "rock 'n roll", the genre named after continental drift, may serve to bolster "power chords", which I have not read, it is not introduced thematically to support the previous statements except in error. Prophet of the Most High (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The use of width is more appropriate to shoe size. Concerning musical intervals we use size or magnitude. Prophet of the Most High (talk) 18:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Question:
Re this quotation: "The great power of this fact is that any song can be played or sung in any key—it will be the same song, as long as the intervals are kept the same, thus transposing the melody into the corresponding key." I know next to nothing, but I thought very simply minor key melodies couldn't be transposed into major keys and vice versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.229.254 (talk) 23:11, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

 * That section, Harmony, has some problems, especially starting with the passage: In the musical scale, there are twelve pitches. Each pitch is referred to as a "degree" of the scale. The names A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are insignificant. The intervals, however, are not. Here is an example: The example given is two major scales, with 8 intervals each, counting the octave. This conflicts with the opening claim of a "musical scale" having 12 pitches. There's some confusion here between chromatic and diatonic scales. The whole section is rather awkwardly worded and could be much improved. In addition, it might be useful to point out that transposition changes the base pitch but not the intervals in equal temperament only. Pfly (talk) 08:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Although this is pretty peripheral to the point, it's perfectly possible to transpose music which is in other tunings, as long as you're not using a fixed-tuned instrument like a keyboard. Voices and string instruments are perfectly capable of duplicating the pitch relationships of the original in transposition, even if it's in just intonation or another temperament. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I suppose that is true. I was thinking about transposing within a given temperament. In quarter-comma meantone, say, interval sizes vary, the pitches forming the scale are unevenly spaced. If music is transposed beyond a point, within the temperament, you'll start getting wolf intervals. But maybe I'm not thinking about transposition so much as modulation, I'm not entirely sure. Anyway, ignore that last sentence if I have it wrong. The section is still in need of copyedit scrubbing. Perhaps I'll do it myself, if I find the time, focus, and freedom from other priorities! Pfly (talk) 05:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Other meanings
Although I have music education I do not agree that music harmony is the main meaning of the word and in disambiguation page I dont see any type of issue reflecting the main meaning of harmony:

 * 1) agreement; accord; harmonious relations.
 * 2) a consistent, orderly, or pleasing arrangement of parts; congruity.
 * 3) musical meaning is third

 * 1) agreement in action, opinion, feeling, etc; accord
 * 2) order or congruity of parts to their whole or to one another

—Synonyms
 * 1) concord, unity, peace, amity, friendship.
 * 2) consonance, conformity, correspondence, consistency. See symmetry.

--Aleksd (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

"thirds and sixths"
Ideally, these should either link to a topic, or be better explained. --76.89.189.214 (talk) 06:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

"As polyphony developed, however, the use of parallel intervals was slowly replaced by the English style of consonance that used thirds and sixths." When, exactly? During the reign of one of the first four Edwards? During the Hundred Years War? Eldin raigmore (talk) 05:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Four-part harmony
Lots of potentially incorrect information here; see talk page for discussion. JZCL 10:01, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge of The perception of harmony into Harmony
Unlikely search term, would be better off in main article Ifnord (talk) 18:31, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Definition
Certainly, I am unable to understand the definition of harmony given: "... harmony is the process by which the composition of individual sounds, or superpositions of sounds, is analysed by hearing". Is harmony a process? Isn't it rather a fact? In this "process", is the composition of individual sounds, or superposition of sounds, analyzed by hearing? Although this can occur perceptually... it is not the harmony itself, I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Witrock (talk • contribs) 07:15, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harmony


text:
Talk:Calliphoridae

Untitled
You´ll find some blowfly pictures in the German wikipedia. One of the genus Calliphora and another of the genus Lucilia. If you want them for your article feel free to use them. Kind regards Soebe 14.05.2004

Article name
The move of this from "blowfly" to "blow-fly" seems rather pointless, as both, plus "blow fly", are correct, and in common use. Also, according to PhaeniciaPhreak 00:22, 16 Jul 2005 (PST)

I feel that by including "blowflies" when explaining common names implies that it is correct. Usually in entomology you combine the begining of the common name with the word flies only when that insect is not part of the order Diptera. An example of this is whiteflies, which would be condsidered less correct if written as white flies. I suggest that it just be removed as to not add confusion. (165.91.10.141 (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)) Jessica Moore

Check any entomological text and you will see that blow fly is two words. It is a true Dipteran - a real fly. Only non-dipterans (whitefly, dragonfly, mayfly) are written as one word. This helps identify to the reader that the latter are not real flies. To state otherwise is a disservice to readers. Trfasulo (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Musician
How 'bout an article on the musician Blowfly too?

 * Go ahead and write it. You'll have to write a disambig page to & put the appropriate template at the top of this page. Jimp 07:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I've removed this "(pronunciation: cal-li-PHOR-ri-dee)". This is meaningless as a pronunciation guide. What's needed is an IPA transcription. Jimp 07:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Redirect
The subject "blow fly" (which really should not be hyphenated) should redirect to Calliphoridae. All blow flies belong to Calliphoridae, but not all Calliphoridae are commonly known as blow flies.

I agree completely and try to figure out how to do this, but I cannot figure it out? Would someone who knows how, be willing to do this? Alli5414 (talk) 00:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

New photo
Does anyone mind if I change the taxobox photo to this one? I think it is much clearer than the current one, and doesn't have the reflective background. I will change it in a day if there are no responses. Thanks --liquidGhoul 07:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't if I were you. The current one shows the hairs on the back of the fly, and, your one is a top - down view, and the wings block out the view of the hind legs. Your one looks to much like housefly. Listen --FREAK 08:39, 21 june 2006 (UTC)
 * "Listen"? Anyway, you can see the hair on the back of my fly, and it has much better focus on the hair on the abdomen. Also, the same number of legs can be seen on both photos. They both have the back legs obscured (acutally, I just noticed you can see the legs through the wings in my photo, and not in the other). --liquidGhoul 12:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have changed it. Your objections don't make any sense, the only way I can figure it, is if you mixed the photos up? --liquidGhoul 14:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Any objections if the current photo in the article is changed to ? It's a different variety of blowfly (mine is an Aussie blowfly, while the original is a dutch blowfly), but I my photo is much higher resolution, and I believe it shows more details. --Martybugs (talk) 06:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

 * While the resolution is better, it's not really a close-up of the head, is it? It shows the whole fly, so if you make the swap, you'd have to change the caption - or can you do a digital zoom and crop? It may be that the zoom-crop trick is how the original photo was created, and then we'd have to see which one looks better when the head takes up an equivalent image space. Dyanega (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Fair point - I've added a closer crop above. Martybugs (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd say that photo is an improvement in quality - no reason not to go ahead and make the swap now. ;-) Dyanega (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The photos that this group picked are outstanding. It is great that you were able to find such close up pictures to demonstrate to the reader what the blow-fly looks like. The article is also well written and very encyclopedia-like. In reading this article I would not know this was a class project.--Raebeam (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

South??
"The Primary Screwworm (Cochliomyia hominivorax) once a major pest in the South, has been eradicated through massive release of sterilized males."

The south of where? Can someone correct this? --Chris Wood 16:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

South of United States it would appear:
 * New World SWF is confined to the Western Hemisphere and occurs in tropical and subtropical areas of Central and South America as far south as Argentina. Previously, it occurred in the southern United States, but has been eliminated from that country and most of Mexico by a major sterile insect release method (SIRM) campaign.  Jens Nielsen 22:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I suspected it meant the southern United States. It seems to be a recurring problem that Americans sometimes forget to qualify what they write about their own country or people, forgetting that other countries and people exist. --Chris Wood 10:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes (sigh!), it happens all the time. It is in particular a problem in biology-related articles, as most of the literature focuses on the species of a particular area. For example, in none of my own books on insects, plants, or mushrooms is there any information on whether individual species occur on other continents at all. Makes it pretty hard.

Jens Nielsen 10:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Q: Can blowflies transmit disease to humans????
I am working in an office where many dead squirrels have been found in our ceiling. Now there are dozens of huge flies. Landlord doesn't seem too concerned and the bosses don't care because the flies are not in their offices (which actually have doors). They have removed a few of the dead animals. Obviously not all because the flies and the smells keep coming. The whole situation disgusts me, as well as my coworkers. Can blowflies transmit any kinds of disease to humans?? I am very concerned about this as they are constantly buzzing around us and landing on our persons, desks, papers, etc. Is there anything I could do on a legal level, citing this is an unhealthy environment? Unsanitary at least? Someone please enlighten me...thanks Grossed Out —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.80.147.241 (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Personal attacks removed
There seems to be little need or purpose served by allowing the numerous personal attacks posted here by User:AzLehrer and his sockpuppet accounts ("Pandur" and "Condor"; see Suspected_sock_puppets/AzLehrer) to remain; the bottom line is that the academic community has rejected Lehrer's proposed classification, and WP follows the mainstream - especially in matters of taxonomic classification, where WP cannot accommodate multiple competing ideas. The edits by this editor violate WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, WP:OWN, WP:SPS, and others, and really don't need to be given continued exposure here. Readers interested in seeing these insults can do so by viewing the page history prior to today's date. Dyanega (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

improved sanitation
this sounds strange Improving the sanitary levels within, and outside the home will go a long way to destroying the habitat in which the blowflies thrive.

In order to reach this goal certain rules of thumb should be followed. Firstly, ensure that all scraps of food – especially fruit, vegetables and meat – are discarded properly. It’s preferable to place these scraps into a sturdy dustbin or trash can with a tight fitting lid; by storing those in this way the vessels are less likely to be knocked over by scavenging animals, thus not exposing the contents to the elements and even more, the blowflies.

Secondly, it must be noted that the bins should be situated as far away from the premises as possible. This will limit the chance of other pests entering your home - once they realize they can’t get at the contents of the said bins.

Additionally, cleaning methods should be put into play when combating this particular kind of pest. Not only must care be taken in ensuring the inside of the bins are regularly cleaned but more importantly their outsides and the immediate area surrounding too.

it sounds like a how-to guide, and not very encyclopedic. also it is not sourced. 67.78.235.101 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If you read the actual wording of WP policy, there is no literal requirement that every statement MUST be sourced; the key clause in the policy is in terms of whether or not the material is subject to challenge. In all honesty, the above passage is just plain sanitary common sense, and there is little if anything in it that can be shown to be inaccurate. In other words, this is a case where I would say a source would be nice, but it is not essential because I don't see why it should be challenged. However, you DO have a point about it not being very encyclopedic, and that is more of a judgment call. As it stands, the article is not so large or poorly-organized that the section in question really needs to be removed to reduce the clutter, and it also seems like the kind of information that readers might want to find here (and other editors might add back - perhaps worded differently - in future edits). On the whole, I don't think it's doing anyone a disservice to leave it in. Do you believe it really needs to be removed? Have you looked online to see if possibly you can find reliable sources that support this text or a re-edited version of it? Dyanega (talk) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

not removed, just reworded. things like "your home" sound just out of place. 67.78.235.101 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Transitioning
I thought your article was very informative. There just needs to be more flow to it, especially between facts in the introduction. Minor changes such as the one I made to the egg color under development should help. Good job!Garza j e (talk) 21:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)garza_j_e  —Preceding comment was added at 23:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

updating the page
As students in forensic entomology, we have been assigned a group project of creating or editing a Wikipedia page on a topic related to the class. We originally had hoped to find lots of information on Calliphorinae but were unsuccessful. We hoped it would be okay if we took our research and what we have learned in class and updated your page. We are new to Wikipedia and want to do everything correctly, so please help guide us in this assignment as we seek to add more information to your current page. Thanks. Alli5414 (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you used a variety of pictures making the article more interesting. The last sentence in the first paragraph of Development is a very effective fact that many people probably don't know. Under Food Sources, the examples of flowers that the Blow-fly is attracted to are very useful. I believe the the one interesting myth insert was fascinating. The one thing I might look at is your sentence under Disease. Maybe try and add a little more and maybe an example. Thanks. --Jordanmurphy (talk) 20:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarifications
Perhaps on the disease section, it could be explained exactly how the fly transmits dysentery and how it is a vector. Simply saying that the fly is a vector does not clarify for the common reader how the transmission of the disease transpires. Otherwise, awesome pictures, and keep up the good work. Csb14 (talk) 15:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Disease
Great article, one thing I would be intrested to hear more about is which diseases and bacteria specifically Lucilia are associated with. If you add a link to Lucilia illustris it might help readers to find out more about Lucilia's involvement in medicine.Hold323 (talk) 06:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

New Research
Good article! As I was reading about the blow fly and certain diseases that it can transmit, I noticed that the section available for discussion about disease was quite limited. I am listing a website that has some research on some of the deadly diseases that the blow fly transmits in sheep and its long term effects on agriculture and livestock. If you would like to use it, it may be able to count as some current research! http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/agric/animal_diseases/domestic/pdf/blowfly04.pdf  Lamanda14 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 10 April 2008

Peer Review
Howdy! loved the article, very informative. The pictures were just down right amazing, very detailed. Maybe more info on the Calliphora vicina and the Cynomya mortuorum could be added for further clarification as to why these 2 specific flies are of importance to forensic entomology. overall good job on the research, the pictures and the article as a whole. Thanks and Gig 'Em (DivoTheAggie (talk) 21:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

Great article guys, just want to let you know that in the section about control methods all you have is cultural and physical control. Where as in today's ideal IPM situation you need to add advances and proper chemical and biological control for how to deal with these flies in and around the home. Other than that, very informative. Lebl37 (talk) 05:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, great article, the photo resolution was detailed enough to show the minute differnces to distinguish the blow fly anatomy from the average housefly. Additional photos showing larval instar stages would be informative especially if they are depicted in their natural environment.(Carrion)Txdevine1 (talk) 19:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Very Cool Article! I really liked all the pictures, the links in the paragraphs, and the section about genus and species in North America. The only thing that I have to suggest is about the economic impact section. It was very short and I wanted to know more about the effect blowflies can have on livestock. What do they do to the livestock? Where is it a threat besides Australia? What are we doing to stop it? Has research yeided any promising solutions? Add more numbers, statistics, facts about this section. Hope that helps. Great job, good luck!Mdurrum09 (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sweet pictures. PS references should be linked as a Title and not as a url.--Amandamartinez06 (talk) 07:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest removing the subheading of Improved Sanitation and just keeping your paragraph under the heading Pest Control. I would also re-word the introductory sentence to say: In order to reduce the number of blowflies entering the home, a number of procedures can be adopted, such as improving sanitation and using sprays or poisons. The following paragraphs under the Improved Sanitation sub-heading would benefit by being combined to one, cohesive paragraph. I think the the Genera/Species section would benefit by putting your information in a table format so that the page isn't so long and the information is easier to read. Good page overall. Alexxmacc (talk) 15:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I really liked the pictures too! Sitting down to research a subject that has cannot contrast its core with some visual references are boring. I liked how you were orginized and detailed. Who knew the blow fly was so interesting? DanielIsbell 1200 April 16 2008

I think your article is very important to Wikipedia and Forensic Entomology because this family includes so many pertinent species. However, I believe you could revise a few things to improve your article. As a recall, there was no emphasis on the fact that they proceed through a "holometabolus" development. With all the details on its anatomical characteristics, pictures highlighting these could be helpful. Furthermore, in the section "Forensic importance," it might be important to mention the instances when Calliphoridae are not the first insects present at the carrion (bad weather, buried). Also, in the section "Pest Control" you should either combine it all into one paragraph OR include paragraphs describing control through sprays, and poisons (as it seemed was your original purpose from the introductory sentence). Finally, you might want to include paragraphs entitled "Conclusion" and "Current Research" as Professor Brundage mentioned in her article rubric; this rubric is posted on our project page on Wikipedia. Good luck! --Amb8786 (talk) 02:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The photos in this article were awesome and made it interesting to read. My only suggestions are to maybe add pictures of the larval stages and under your "maggot therapy" section, give an example of a fly that eats healthy tissue. Overall, fantastic job! Hando09 (talk) 03:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend going in and editing the words you have linked that are now showing up red. They do not direct you to another page so you should probably just unlink them or find an actual page to link them to. Other than that it looks really good! Hietpas08 (talk) 21:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I really enjoyed the photographs in your article. The information was thorough and easy to find. My only problem was with your references. There was a lot of URL references that were not correctly cited. Also on your paragraph about myiasis I was wondering where your information on “blow fly strike” came from cause it was not included in your references. Jword 09 (talk) 00:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The list in the section: Genera and Species in North America is a really smart idea. This is very helpful in any further research done by students or others looking for quick information. Good job. Also, the Forensic Importance section has a lot of links, which is really good...relates it to many other topics, which is helpful when doing research. Very good use of pictures, makes the page interesting and encourages reading the article all the way through. Altogether a very informative page. Really good job guys! Kellyorr1 (talk) 02:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most everyone else good pics. I also really like the opening paragraph, a few quick facts to grab your attention for the rest of the article. Jdritchey4 (talk) 08:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The article was awesome and very well written. It's very a great deal of time and effort was spent on researching everything. I especially enjoyed the pictures.(Lice2008 (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC))

Redirect, taxobox image
All of the epithets "blow fly, blow-fly, blowfly, greenbottle, bluebottle, green bottle, blue bottle, cluster, carrion, et al flies should redirect to Calliphoridae. Organisms are most accurately classified according to the binomial system, not the colloquial, capricious and controversial common names, which are anything but common. This has been mentioned before but never accomplished. Redirects according to spelling whims are silly and counterproductive. Blow-fly. Really? Is that the accepted scientific designation for these creatures?

Taxobox images should show as many characteristics of the creature as possible. Images designated "quality" images do not necessarily represent the qualities required for taxobox use. The current Australian sheep blowfly image is well-cropped and shows a complete dorsal view of an entire fly. Nickrz (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Screwworms

 * The Primary Screwworm (Cochliomyia hominivorax) once a major pest in southern United States, has been eradicated through massive release of sterilized males. See Sterile insect technique.

 * The primary screwworm (Chrysomya bezziana) is an obligate parasite of mammals. This fly is distributed throughout the "Old World", including: Southeast Asia; tropical and subtropical Africa; some countries in the Middle East; India; the Malay Peninsula; the Indonesian and Philippine Islands; and Papua New Guinea. [15] The fly is an agent of myiasis, which is the infestation of tissue on a living mammal.

 * The secondary screwworm (Cochliomyia macellaria) has become one of the principal species on which to base postmortem interval estimations because its succession and occurrence on decomposing remains has been well defined. The secondary screwworm is found throughout the United States, the American tropics, and in southern Canada during summer months. This species is one of the most common species found on decomposing remains in the southern United States

Are both hominivorax and bezziana called the "Primary Screwworm"? As it's not capitalized, is Chrysomya bezziana A primary screwworm and C hominivorax THE Primary Screwworm? The section is confusing. Rojomoke (talk) 12:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Rename

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved ÷seresin 08:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Blow-fly → Calliphoridae —The text of page is about the entire Calliphoridae Family and as noted several times in this talk page the "common name" Blow fly is one of a number of names applied to members of this family but is not used for the entire family. --Kevmin (talk) 01:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Support — it is bad enough to have to disambiguate "blow-fly", "blow fly" and "blowfly" without the additional complexity of "blow-fly family" occupying one of the ambiguous base names. --Una Smith (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - I know very little about insects but I will take your word for it that the name of Calliphoridae is not equivalent to blow-fly. What I'd do then is make a stub article on blow-fly to indicate which species it applies to, much like raven WRT birds. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support These are a wide array of common insects with a good many names, so support as per nom. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Superfamily
09 sept. 2010

Superfamily SARCOPHAGOIDEA Rohdendorf, 1964 - No synonym Oestroidea - nomen falsum ap. Pape (2001) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.146.184 (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Mr. Lehrer, you're wrong on both counts. Sarcophagoidea is credited to Macquart 1834, but Oestroidea is credited to Leach 1815. Sabrosky's catalog makes this clear. You demonstrate an inadequate understanding of the scientific literature, as well as the Code, both of which you should remedy prior to making further edits in Wikipedia. Also, sockpuppetry is a violation of Wikipedia policy, and if you persist, you can be blocked. Dyanega (talk) 01:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Calliphoridae