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Talk:Okanagan

Why is this only the Canadian side?
Although it may have been brought up before, it seems this page badly misrepresents what exactly the Okanogan is... Geologically, the Okanogan was a subcontinent that was caught between the Cascade plate and the North American plate when they collided, forming the Rocky and Cascade Mountains. The southern portion of the Okanogan is in Washington state in Ferry and Okanogan counties. The boundary of the subcontinent is conveniently marked by the course of the Columbia river. By having the term Okanogan direct to a page that only discusses the Canadian region is just as bad as if the page only discussed the American. Geologically, ecologically, historically, and even culturally, they are one region. Is there a way to create a single Okanogan page that discusses the region as a whole without playing national politics? Avgusztyn (talk) 06:35, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The Okanagan is only in Canada, the Okanogan is in the U.S. Ie they are the same region, but the regions are spelt differently and you looked up the Cdn one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.142.63.46 (talk) 01:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Another reason
Although they are discussed separately, the Canadian Okanagan has more than one hundredtimes the population of its southern counterpart.

Bomb319 (talk) 16:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

spelling/disambiguity
I always had problems spelling this word correctly. I finally figured out why. In the US it is spelled Okanogan and in Canada it is spelled Okanagan. It is weird because it is not your typical word that is spelled differently like color/colour or theater/theatre. Anyways i am not sure how to handle this in wikipedia. It is the same region just different spellings in the two different countries. suggests????

Tpahl 18:32, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Unless anyone says otherwise I am going to work to split this article into two groups, Okanogan and Okanagan

Roleypolinde 06:40, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Totally overhauled the page, hope you like

Roleypolinde 00:25, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

History section needs work
Just dropped by and noticed some stuff; the following quote is a note for myself for later to more accurately describe local history/geography:

 * . Within fifteen years, fur traders established a route through the valley for passing goods between the Thompson region and the Columbia River for transport to the Pacific. The trade route lasted until 1846, when the Oregon Treaty laid down the border between British North America and the United States west of the Rocky Mountains on the 49th parallel. The new border cut across the valley. To avoid paying tariffs, British traders forged a route that bypassed Fort Okanogan, following the Thompson and Fraser rivers to Fort Langley instead. The Okanagan Valley did not see many more outsiders for a decade afterward.

More like: the goods in question were often shipped from Fort Vancouver TO York Factory (on Hudson's Bay), i.e. the route was not down the Columbia to the Pacific, but the other way around; fur shipments from Ft Vancouver to York Factory. Similarly, the Brigade Trail's purpose was FROM Fort Langley, not TO it. And the Brigade Trail was an overland route, only barely using the Thompson and only the Fraser from Kequaloose (across the river from Spuzzum) to/from Ft Langley; it connected to Fort Kamloops via the Coldwater River, and the upper Nicola. The other "replacement" route(s) ran over the southern Canadian Cascades to the Similkameen.

Even during the Okanagan's era as the route the fur company "Express" took, there were not many outsiders in it; only when a fur brigade was passing through, or the occasional small HBC/NWC party; it's not as if the route was busy and there were hordes of fur traders in it....Skookum1 04:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Some Suggestions and Criticisms

 * "As of the year 2001, the region's population is approximately 297,601." The precision of the figure contradicts "approximately." -- PC

Origin of name?

 * ''The name derives from an Okanagan language word S-Ookanhkchinx meaning "Transport toward the head or top end".[citation needed]

That's really odd and isn't mentioned in any related link. Can anyone confirm this?Mzmadmike (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I've seen it in some book/article somewhere, one from a tourism board I think; it might be on http://www.siylx.org which is hte Okanagan Nation Alliance website and has some language/word stuff on it; I've seen it on smething semi-official if not official, though the BCGNIS entry doesn't have it though has a lot of variations on it. In Teit's section on the Okanagan people (Papers of the Jesup North Pacific Expedition) he does describe a fort at the north end of hte lake, Okanaqen but even he doesn't state that as the name-origin of the lake; I'm sorry I don't have the page city handy.  One thing about S-Ookanhkchinx that you should realize is the prefix S- marks it as a noun; and that "ch" may be not "ch" likr "church" but like loch - Ookan'kheen(h)...."fits" a bit better once you take the S off; Osoyoos is the opposite, where "o" was added to teh Okanagan word suius....Skookum1 (talk) 04:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Re map
This is a demonstration of why I don't think Regional Districts are useful ways to describe regions in BC; it doesn't look like the shape or location of the Okanagan at all, because of those big bulges up the Columbia and up the Similkameen; and it looks as though a "tongue" of it isn't included, in the RD west of the Columbia one (Enderby or Spallumcheen, somewhere in that area); and the eastward bulge from Vernon is part of the Monashees portion of the Shuswap River Country (which isn't in "the Shuswap" according to my usage; more like "the Monashees"). I'll see what else I can come up with, but as mentioned such maps illustrate problems with the RD system rather than help illustrate the articles they're used on (except for RD articles).Skookum1 23:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This article REALLY needs a map of the area described. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 00:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Interesting site for expanding the Okanagan page and corrolary articles
Living Landscapes. Yahoo!Sirius 10:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Question
The article says the Okanagan is sometimes known as "Okanagan Country". I've never really heard this used- can anyone verify or provide a reference?
 * Okanagan Country is old-fashioned, but you still hear it in for example broadcaster talk where they might say "up in the Okanagan Country it'll be raining for a change": or "Charlie spent ten years in the Okanagan Country before moving to the Coast". Except other than in in older books it may  be hard to find a print citation as it's part of speech; I'[d venture it's close to the sensE of "the Okanagan" the "Okanagan Valley" is because it can incluDe adjoining areas, e.g. Kaleden, Keremeos, etc; things that aren't in the Okanagan Valley per se.  Yes, it's not as common as "the Okanagan" but that is a contraction of "Okanagan Country" the way "The Thompson is an abbreviated form of "the Thompson Country" (whcih surely you'reve heard) or the Cariboo is a short form of "the Cariboo Country" etc Chilcotin, Omineca, Peace etc.  In some cases the w/wo "Country" remains in use, as with the Thompson Country or in cases like the Shuswap Country where (to me) the single-word remains the primary form, as it does in the case of Okanagan or Kootenay(s); there's no regular syntax to this; "the Lillooet" is rarely heard nowadays vs "the Lillooet Country" in the same way "Okanagan Country" is rarely hear/seen except in passing anyway; Kootenay seems to fall into the same category but Cariboo and Omineca and others the "Country" is still used in combination, while in other it must be to retain the sense e.g.  Columbia Valley and Columbia Country have two different contexts.  And while in the Okanagan's case the Country and the VAlley are (nearly) the same thing, in many case that's just not true, e.g. the Shuswap, orin the case of hte Cariboo where it's primarily the plateau ratehr than the river valley that's refered to.p; the Omineca Country's inhabited areas are mostly those not in teh Omineca drainage, for instance.  The Shuswap is used around the lake, not the entire Shuswap basin; and unlike Cariboo or Chilcotin it's not "Shuswap District" ditto it's not "Okanagan District".  Not taht you asked ;\D    It came to me while preppin g to write this that these particularly B C-ian usages should probably be documented ina dictionary of Canadian English or Canadian geography; probably arne't but they should be....Skookum1 (talk) 22:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, I've read the OK valley is often seen as the northernmost extreme of the Sonoran biosphere system- some go so far as to say the area around Osoyoos is part of the Sonoran desert. Does anyone know anything to elaborate on this? If true, it should be part of the article. Dionix (talk) 21:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

 * As for the desert that's a decades-old tourism brag - I guess they mean "the northern end of the Great Western Desert which extends all the way down/up from Mexico".  But it's not Sonoran Desert, whatever it is, and it's not Canada's only desert, unless you pretend Lytton, Lillooet, Big Bar, Ashcroft and Spences Bridge don't exist (which is waht the Okanagna tourism board would of coruse prefer).  The Sonoran thing is part of a bigbranding ptich, including mock-Southwest architecture; I think they even used it at the Desert Cultural Heritage Centre, but which scientists they paid to write that up for them probably werrn't scientists.  It's the northern tip of a particular biogeoclimatic thing becuase of some mouse or other, and a bunchgrass; but Lillooet has cacti and warmer summer and winter tempreratures, and is drier.  But in BC Tourism, only Osoyoos is a desert go figure.  I figure "consultants" - expensive gbuyt not very knowledgeable ones....Skookum1 (talk) 22:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I saw that in a documentary years back that the Sonoran technically extended into and was a portion of the Sonoran desert. I am no expert by any means.  This topic is the very reason i was on this site -- to clarify if what i saw on a proper documentary was true.  the Desert thing.  :)  The Great Basin Desert extends into oregon, so i could see this Okanagan valley stuff being a small extension of that.  and I don't know when The Great Basin Desert was named. 73.136.163.140 (talk) 06:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

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Problematics
First off, the RD-based location map that's used here is a good example of why I think RD maps aren't very useful, or relevant; better to use a terrain-based map like on Okanagan Trail and rough in the Okanagan's boundaries, rather than confuse the isseu by include the Similkameen and Shuswap (or, in previous incarnations of the RDs and/or electoral districts, the Boundary Country). RDs are an invention of the 1960s, so it's even more inappropriate to have a map based on them next to the history section....but what really prompted me to respond, though I don't have much time/energy to do much about it, is:
 * ''In 1859, the first European settlement was established when Father Charles Pandosy led the making of an Oblate mission where Kelowna is now. In the decades that followed, hundreds of ranchers came to settle on Okanagan Lake. The Fraser Canyon Gold Rush of 1858 eventually encouraged more settlement as some prospectors from the United States took the Okanagan Trail route on their way to the Fraser Canyon, although at the height of the rush the American adventurers who used the route did not settle because of outright hostilites from the Okanagan people, whom a few of the parties traversing the trail had harassed and brutalized. A few staked claims around the South Okanagan and Similkameen valleys and found gold and copper in places. A mining industry began in the southern Okanagan region, and more farmers, as well as a small service industry, came to meet the needs of the miners.

The Okanagan was only settled after the heyday of the Okanagan Trail, hwich might better be considered as a period of prolonged hostilities, in the face of which settlement was impossible; the revival of the Brigade Trail to the Cariboo was what half-launched setltlement, but it was really the military-land-grants that touched it off; at the moment I can't remmber when Mara and Vernon and the few others who started ranching in the 1860s got their start, but it was certainly not "hundreds"; t he service industry was only in the Osoyoos area, because of hte border crossing and the Dewdney Trail, as it was only the Similkameen and Boundary that got an early start; the OK is a latecomer in devleopment, depsite being the leading region fo the three today; copper in the OK? I guess so, but it strikes me that that's more of a reference to the Similkameen (and Boundary) than it is to the Okanagan; some gold was found around Okanagan Lake but no active mines were established in the valley until much later (1880s and '90s); it was the Similkameen and Boundary districts that were the focal point of mining in southern BC until the Silvery Slocan got going....anyway I don't have time to rewrite and research/cite all this properly but I encourage editors to this page to read more deeply in period sources to untangle the many modern-era fuzzinesses which ahve crept in from tourism brochures and "historical spin doctors". Some of the content of this paragraph and the preceding one seems "tangled" and should be rearranged more chronologically (and logically). Hopefully someone will see fit to write an Okanagan Mission article and the Pandosy bio.....Skookum1 (talk) 01:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Such a young wine industry?
I can remember my parents taking the family on a family vacation to the Okanagan in the early to mid 1980's, and one of the things I remember well is touring a family-friendly winery. I was suprised to read that 1989 is the industry's birth in BC. CalgaryWikifan (talk) 02:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I assume that the infobox refers to the year the wine region Okanagan Valley was defined, rather than when the first vine was planted in the Okanagan area. Although, when I was there circa 2005, I got the impression that many of the wineries and vineyards were rather new. All this would probably be clearer if we had a separate article on the wine region with a good history section. Tomas e (talk) 16:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The Okanagan in the US
The Okanogan/Okanagan Valley does extend down into Washington. Any reason this article does not include the portion in Washington? It's not a huge part, but it is part of the region. 96.239.206.182 (talk) 06:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, though the term "the Okanagan" is used in BC, whereas I believe in Washington the more common expression is "Okanogan County". So this article is about the BC region, the Okanogan County article exists separately and is included in the See alsos or hatnote.  Some items like Okanagan Highland, Okanagan Range and Okanogan River necessarily span the border.Skookum1 (talk) 21:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

No, in the rest of Washington, as well as in Oregon, northern Idaho, and northwestern Montana, saying "the Okanagan" means 'The Okanagan River Valley' whether it's in British Columbia or in Washington. This article is misleading and biased. "The Okanagan" is on both sides of the border, just as the Rocky Mountains and High Plains and Great Lakes are. Can you imagine having an article only on the Canadian side or US side of the Great Lakes? Rather ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.148.28 (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You need to read more carefully - the spelling is different (Okanagan in Canada, Okanogan in the U.S.) you looked up the Cdn one so you are seeing information about the Cdn region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.142.63.46 (talk) 01:22, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

 * The article is not meant to be Canada-only, it is titled that way because the majority of the region is in Canada; the Okanogan River article is titled with the American spelling because most of its length is in the US. A section on the US side is welcome here; it's not as straightforward as Okanagan County as the Methow and other areas are in the US Okanogan; defining it and citing it is part of the issue for inclusion/expansion.Skookum1 (talk) 03:22, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Wine region needs split-off article
I "hid" the infobox for the wine region, which dominated the lede and gave the misapprehension that that's what this important region primarily is; I thought there was a photo before, can't find it in the edit history. Okanagan Valley (wine region) is waiting to be created; once it has, the relevant category can be moved there. Quite a while ago I removed, also, the claim that this was the only wine region in BC, which is just not factual (Cowichan Valley and the Fraser Valley are also wine regions)Skookum1 (talk) 21:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As a Seattleite, the wine industry is the only reason to pay attention to the Okanagan Valley. Okay maybe curling. :P No, but seriously. I agree that the Okanagan merits a separate wine article much in the same way places like Puget Sound and Puget Sound AVA, Loire Valley and Loire Valley (wine), etc have separate wine articles. Beginning in January the Wine Project will be doing an article improvement drive that focuses on Canadian, American and Mexican wines throughout the month. It will be an excellent opportunity to create this article. AgneCheese/Wine 21:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do, I don't know enough about the subject to write it; we could stub it right now, using the infobox material (which has "heat units = identical to Bordeaux" which seems like a boast and probably not entirely true - knowing the BC wine industry's penchant for hyperbole/fudging). Do you know if the Keremeos area is part of the wine region? (the Similkameen Valley)?  There's new wine attempts being made in teh Lillooet region (Fountain, BC was actually the site of the first vines grown in BC) and I think in the Boundary and parts of the Kootenays, but don't know if there's any formally designated wine regions).  "Curling" huh?  Good one, but that's more of a Nova Scotia obsession; these are all hockey and water sports/beach towns.Skookum1 (talk) 22:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about stubbing it. Besides, I'm not a big fan of those infoboxes anyways and will likely not use it. As for curling, I will note that 2 time World Champion Kelly Scott is from Kelowna and that Vernon often hosts stops on the World Curling Tour (Essentially the PGA Tour of Curling) with the Twin Anchors Houseboat Cash Spiel and The Swiss Chalet National this year. So like I said, for a Seattleite at least, the Okanagan is usually about wine and curling. :) Though surprising neither Kelowna or Vernon have ever hosted a harvest spiel. :/ AgneCheese/Wine 22:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Trans continental highway
I really think a place like this should have the highway going through it. Right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizliz42 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Duh. It does, it's called Highway 97.Skookum1 (talk) 21:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * He/she is meaning transcontinental, Highway 97 though is definitely trans-provincial, though N-S. The Crowsnest Highway is part of the transcontinental/cross-Canada network though, and it does run through the region.  And it's not like you could build a highway straight from the Fraser Valley via Kelowna and across the Monashees and Selkirks and Purcells in and Rockies in a straight line, or even approximately one.  Because o the Coquihalla some transcontinental traffic routes via Vernon and Kelowna to Merritt and so to the Coast...for those that like urban traffic congestion, that is.Skookum1 (talk) 16:14, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Population figures
The population is listed as being 350,927 in 2009, but the 2011 census shows a combined 276,830 residents. Most likely, the reason that the article's population is large is because it includes the entire Regional District of Okanagan-Similkameen, but I've added the population of its electoral areas within the Okanagan region showing less residents. In addition, figures from BC Stats are usually overexerted from the actual 2011 census source. Thus, I believe the population figure should be changed. TB randley (T • C  • B) 19:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC) asadewewewqewqewqewqewqewqeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.204.239.46 (talk) 15:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

What kind of particular lifestyle?
In the opening paragraph, this line is problematic: "The region is known for its dry, sunny climate, dry landscapes and lakeshore communities and particular lifestyle" First, there shouldn't be two "and"s and second, what kind of particular lifestyle?

I didn't want to go in and edit, but can I recommend "The region is known for its dry, sunny climate, orchards, lakeshore cottage communities and relaxed lifestyle. It is a popular holiday destination for Canadians, many of whom choose to retire here." Chellspecker (talk) 19:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Okanagan"
The usage and topic of Okanagan is under discussion, see talk:okanogan -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

History section has nonsense in it
One section states that "At the height of Okanagan culture, about 40,000 years ago, it is estimated that 12 million people lived in this valley and surrounding areas." No citation is given. If one couldn't tell how absurd this claim is on its face, one might look at estimates of world population over the millenia. There weren't even 12 million people on the entire planet 40,000 years ago. The article for the Okanagan People states that "At the height of Okanagan culture, about 3000 years ago, it is estimated that 12,000 people lived in this valley." This is a more reasonable estimate.

The paragraph goes on to assert that "the member bands of the Okanagan Nation Alliance are sovereign nations." Well, maybe they claim sovereignty, but as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they don't have it.

This entire paragraph, at minimum, should be reworked.

75.156.36.2 (talk) 09:50, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Population numbers are slightly wrong.
The population numbers for the Regional District of North Okanagan and the Regional District of Okanagan Similkameen are swapped. They should be 84 354 and 83 022, respectively.

title: Talk:Okanagan


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Alex Pacheco (baseball)

Alexander Melchor Pacheco Lara (born July 19, 1973) is a former pitcher in Major League Baseball who played for the Montreal Expos in its 1996 season. Listed at 6' 3" [1.93 m], 200 lb. [91 k], Pacheco batted and threw right handed. He was born in Caracas, Venezuela.

Career
The Expos signed Pacheco as an amateur free agent in 1989. Pacheco made his debut with the Gulf Coast League Expos in 1990, spending six seasons in the Montreal Minor League system, where he was mostly used as a long reliever and spot starter, until he joined the big team in April 1996. In five relief appearances for the Expos, Pacheco posted an 11.12 ERA and did not have a decision or save, giving up seven earned runs on eight hits and one walk while striking out seven in $5 2/3$ innings of work.

Pacheco spent the remainder of the 1996 season with the Harrisburg Senators. Late in the year, he was sent along with Jeff Fassero to the Seattle Mariners for Trey Moore, Matt Wagner and Chris Widger. Pacheco spent 1997 in the Mariners' organization, and later pitched for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and New York Yankees Triple A teams in a span of three seasons from 1998 to 2002.

In between, Pacheco played winter ball for four clubs of the Venezuelan League during 13 seasons between 1989 and 2002, as well as for the Pericos de Puebla of the Mexican League in 2000 and 2002–2003.

Overall, Pacheco had a 50–54 record with a 4.34 ERA and 55 saves at six different levels, along with 649 strikeouts and 348 walks in $713 1/3$ innings.

After his playing retirement, Pacheco became a coach in the Venezuelan League.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Alex Pacheco (baseball)


text:
Born Again (Black Sabbath album)

Born Again is the eleventh studio album by English rock band Black Sabbath. Released on 9 September 1983, it is the only album the group recorded with lead vocalist Ian Gillan, best known for his work with Deep Purple. It was also the last Black Sabbath album for nine years to feature original bassist Geezer Butler and the last to feature original drummer Bill Ward, though Ward did record a studio track with the band fifteen years later on their 1998 live album Reunion. The album has received mixed reviews from critics, but was a commercial success upon its 1983 release, reaching No. 4 in the UK charts. The album also hit the top 40 in the United States. In July 2021, guitarist and founding member Tony Iommi confirmed that the long lost original master tapes of the album had been finally located, and that he was considering remixing the album for a future re-release.

Origins
Following the departure of vocalist Ronnie James Dio and drummer Vinny Appice in 1982, Sabbath's future was in doubt. The band switched management to Don Arden (Sharon Osbourne's father) and he suggested Ian Gillan as the new vocalist. The band had considered vocalists such as Robert Plant and David Coverdale before settling on Gillan. With Whitesnake on the verge of breaking up, Iommi was eager to form a new group with Coverdale and drummer Cozy Powell joining him and Butler, but Coverdale and Powell decided at the last minute to continue with Whitesnake. While Iommi has claimed that the band received an audition tape from a then-unknown Michael Bolton at this time, Butler claims no such thing happened and that Iommi concocted the story as "a joke".

Iommi told Hit Parader magazine in late 1983 that Gillan was the best candidate, saying "His shriek is legendary." Gillan was at first reluctant, but his manager convinced him to meet with Iommi and Butler at The Bear, a pub in Oxford. After a night of heavy drinking, Gillan officially committed to the project in February 1983. The following morning Gillan had no memory of joining the band and claimed he didn't even like Black Sabbath's music, but the deal had already been struck.

The project was originally intended to be a new supergroup, and the members of the group had no intention of billing themselves as Black Sabbath. At some point after recording had been completed, Arden insisted that they use the recognizable Sabbath name, and the members were overruled. Arden had secured a sizable advance from the record company with the proviso that Gillan be involved, and they would only release the album under the Black Sabbath name. "We thought we were doing a kind of Gillan-Iommi-Butler-Ward album…" recalled bassist Geezer Butler. "That is the way we approached the album. When we had finished the album, we took it to the record company and they said, 'Well, here's the contract: it is going to go out as a Black Sabbath album."

With Cozy Powell electing to remain with Coverdale in Whitesnake, Black Sabbath's longtime drummer Bill Ward was persuaded to return to the band. Ward claimed to be newly sober after leaving the band in 1980 to deal with his alcoholism and he assured Iommi and Butler that he was up to recording and touring once again. Ward began drinking at some point during the sessions and returned to Los Angeles for treatment once the album was completed, and has remained sober ever since. Ward has said that he enjoyed making the album, which remains his final studio album with the band.

Recording
Sabbath began recording in May 1983 at Richard Branson's Manor Studio, in the Oxfordshire countryside. Engineer Robin Black had worked with the band in the mid-1970s on Sabotage and received a co-producer credit on Born Again.

During recording, the band members lived at Manor Studio while Gillan chose to live outside the house, alone, in a marquee tent on the studio grounds: "I thought he was joking, but when I arrived at the Manor I saw this marquee outside and I thought, fucking hell, he's serious. Ian had put up this big, huge tent. It had a cooking area and a bedroom and whatever else", said Iommi. Butler said that the tent situation and Gillan's refusal to live with his new bandmates, in hindsight, likely indicated that the vocalist didn't view himself as a member of the band.

"Ian's lyrics were about sexual things or true facts, even about stuff that happened at The Manor there and then," Iommi said. "They were good, but quite a departure from Geezer's and Ronnie's lyrics." For example, Gillan returned from a local pub one evening, took a car belonging to drummer Ward, and commenced racing around a go-cart track on the Manor Studio property. He crashed the car, which burst into flames after he escaped uninjured. He wrote the album's opening "Trashed" about the experience. Butler felt that Gillan's lyrics on tracks such as "Digital Bitch" and "Keep It Warm" were good, but much better suited to the musical style of Deep Purple than Black Sabbath.

"Disturbing the Priest" was written after a rehearsal space – set up by Iommi in a small building near a local church – received noise complaints from the resident priests. "We wanted this effect on 'Disturbing the Priest'," recalled the guitarist, "and Bill got this big bucket of water and he got this anvil. It was really heavy, and he'd got it hanging on a piece of rope and lower it in to get this effect: hit it and lower it in, and then lift it out again. It was a great effect, but it took hours to do."

The band got along well, but it became apparent to all involved that Gillan's style did not quite mesh with the Sabbath sound. In 1992, he told director Martin Baker, "I was the worst singer Black Sabbath ever had. It was totally, totally incompatible with any music they'd ever done. I didn't wear leathers, I wasn't of that image...I think the fans probably were in a total state of confusion." In 1992, Iommi admitted to Guitar World, "Ian is a great singer, but he's from a completely different background, and it was difficult for him to come in and sing Sabbath material."

"I saw Ian go into the studio one day," Ward recalled, "and I was fortunate and honoured, actually, to be part of a session. I watched him lay tracks on 'Keep It Warm'… I felt like Ian was Ian in that song… I watched this incredible transformation of this man that really, I felt, delicately put lyrics together. It made sense. I thought he did an excellent job. And I really dig that song too."

"I did some of the best drum work on that album…" Bill Ward recalled. "On 'Disturbing the Priest', there were some polyrhythms and some counterpoint things that I was doing, and I was using at least twenty different pieces of percussion towards the end of that song… I was real proud of a lot of the work that I did. Some of it invariably got lost in the mix, but I know that it's printed on those tracks." Butler said that Ward began acting quite strangely during recording and was angrier than he had ever seen him. At one point the drummer began hallucinating and had to be hospitalized, and while he was there the band discovered his secret stash of vodka that he'd been consuming in secret at night. After being released from the hospital, Ward quit the band again and returned to America to sort out his issues, with his drum parts already recorded.

When the band heard the final product, they were horrified at the muffled mix. In his autobiography, Iommi explains that Gillan inadvertently blew a couple of tweeters in the studio speakers by playing the backing tracks too loud and nobody noticed. "We just thought it was a bit of a funny sound, but it went very wrong somewhere between the mix and the mastering and the pressing of that album...the sound was really dull and muffly. I didn't know about it, because we were already out on tour in Europe. By the time we heard the album, it was out and in the charts, but the sound was awful." Butler recalled listening to the tapes in his hotel room and being alarmed at how "muffled and unclear" the tracks were, but Iommi and Black assured him that the issue would be corrected during mixing. Ultimately, the issue never was corrected, with Butler lamenting years later that "that's what happens when you don't hire a bona fide producer, like Martin Birch, to handle things."

For all his misgivings, Gillan remembers the period fondly, stating in the Black Sabbath: 1978–1992 documentary, "But by God, we had a good year...And the songs, I think, were quite good."

Breakup
After Bill Ward had left the band for rehab, former Electric Light Orchestra drummer Bev Bevan was hired for the subsequent tour. Bevan was a friend of Iommi's who knew Don Arden well, but he was ultimately not a heavy metal drummer. Following the tour, in which Gillan refused to learn the lyrics to much of the band's Osbourne-era material, this version of Black Sabbath fell apart, with Gillan and Bevan quitting.

The tour was also a breaking point for Butler, who admits in the Black Sabbath: 1978–1992 documentary, "I just got totally disillusioned with the whole thing and I left some time in 1984 after the Born Again tour. I just had enough of it." In 2015 Butler clarified to Dave Everley of Classic Rock: "I left because my second child was born and he was having problems, so I wanted to stay with him. I told Tony I couldn't concentrate on the band anymore. But I never fell out with anybody." While the members all got along well enough, Butler questioned Gillan's commitment after his refusal to learn the lyrics to the band's older material, and Butler says the looming Deep Purple reunion was the deciding factor in the vocalist's decision to leave. Iommi was unhappy when Gillan told him the news, as he thought it had been a long-term arrangement. Disagreements with management also contributed to the band's dissolution.

Album cover
The Born Again album cover – depicting what Martin Popoff described as a "garish red devil-baby" – is by Steve 'Krusher' Joule, a Kerrang! designer who also worked on Ozzy Osbourne's Speak of the Devil. It is based on a black-and-white photocopy of a photograph published in a 1968 magazine. Joule was said to have deliberately delivered a sub-par cover due to his involvement with and loyalty to the band's former vocalist Osbourne.

Butler called the cover "a bit sick, but (Arden) loved it, so that was that." Gillan told the press that he vomited when he first saw the picture. However, Iommi approved the cover, which has long been regarded as one of the worst in rock music history. Ben Mitchell of Blender called the cover "awful". The British magazine, Kerrang!, ranked the cover in second place, behind only the Scorpions' Lovedrive, on their list of "10 Worst Album Sleeves in Metal/Hard Rock". The list was based on votes from the magazine's readers. NME included the sleeve on their list of the "29 sickest album covers ever". Sabbath's manager Don Arden was quite hostile towards the band's ex-vocalist Ozzy Osbourne, who had recently married his daughter Sharon, and was fond of telling Osbourne that his children resembled the Born Again cover.

Release and reception
Born Again was released in September 1983 and was a commercial success. It was the highest charting Black Sabbath album in the United Kingdom since Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (1973), and became an American Top 40 hit. Despite this, it was the first Black Sabbath album to fall short of RIAA certification.

The album received mixed reviews upon its release. AllMusic's Eduardo Rivadavia wrote that the album has "gone down as one of heavy metal's all-time greatest disappointments" and described "Zero the Hero", "Hot Line", and "Keep It Warm" as "embarrassing". Blender contributor Ben Mitchell gave the album one out of five stars and claimed that the music on Born Again was worse than its cover. Martin Charles Strong, the author of The Essential Rock Discography, wrote that it was "an exercise in heavy-metal cliché". However, PopMatters contributor Adrien Begrand has noted the album as "overlooked". The British magazine Metal Forces defined it "a very good album" even if "Gillan may not be the perfect frontman for the Sabs".

Despite the overall negative reception with critics, the album remains a fan favorite. Author Martin Popoff has written that "if any album in the history of Black Sabbath is getting a new set of horns up from metalheads here deep into the new century, it's Born Again." Industrial metal band Godflesh and death metal band Cannibal Corpse both have covered "Zero the Hero", the former appears on the Masters Of Misery - Black Sabbath: The Earache Tribute album while the latter is featured on the Hammer Smashed Face EP. Cannibal Corpse's former singer, Chris Barnes, has called Born Again his favourite Black Sabbath album. "Zero the Hero" has also been cited as the inspiration for the Guns N' Roses hit "Paradise City", and in his autobiography Iommi also suggests the Beastie Boys may have borrowed the riff from "Hot Line" for their hit "(You Gotta) Fight For Your Right (To Party!)". Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich has called Born Again "one of the best Black Sabbath albums". Bill Stevenson, former drummer of Black Flag, stated the band was listening to the album around the time of My War, defining songs like "Trashed" and "Disturbing the Priest" as "ideal".

In 1984, Ozzy Osbourne stated that the album was the "best thing I've heard from Sabbath since the original group broke up". Butler has pointed to "Zero the Hero" and "Disturbing the Priest" as his favorites on the album. Butler has said that while he initially felt that the poor production had spoiled Born Again, upon re-listening to it decades later "it was a lot better than I remembered", saying "If the songs are good enough, you can get away with iffy production." He points to Iommi's riffs and says "Ian's singing is great". In 1992, Iommi confessed to Guitar World, "To be honest, I didn't like some of the songs on that album, and the production was awful. We never had time to test the pressings after it was recorded, and something happened to it by the time it got released."

Ian Gillan expressed disappointment in the final production mix of the album, saying that although he did not break his first copy of it, "I threw it out the window of my car. [Laughs]" He also reflected on the touring activity with the band, "I was with Black Sabbath for a year and I sang Ozzy Osbourne songs as well as the songs from Born Again. And I never felt right doing that. It was great — I could sing them okay — but I didn't sound like Ozzy. There was something not quite right."

A re-mastered 'Deluxe Expanded Edition' of Born Again was released in May 2011 by Sanctuary Records. It included several live tracks from the 1983 Reading Festival originally featured on BBC Radio 1's Friday Rock Show. Though the release was remastered, it was not remixed due to the inability to locate the original master tapes, as well as Sanctuary not wanting delay the release in an effort to locate said tapes for a remix.

In 2021, Tony Iommi claimed that the original master tapes, long thought lost, had been found and that he was considering remixing them for an eventual release.

Born Again Tour and Stonehenge props
According to Iommi's autobiography, Ward began drinking again near the end of the Born Again recording sessions and returned to Los Angeles for treatment. The band recruited Bev Bevan, who had played with The Move and ELO, for the upcoming tour in support of the new album. Gillan had all the lyrics to the Sabbath songs written out and plastered all over the stage, explaining to Martin Baker in 1992, "I couldn't get into my brain any of these lyrics...I cannot soak in these words. There's no storyline. I can't relate to what they mean." Gillan attempted to overcome the problem by having a cue book with plastic pages on stage, which he would turn with his foot during the show. However, Gillan did not anticipate the "six buckets" of dry ice that engulfed the stage, making it impossible for the singer to see the lyric sheets. "Ian wasn't very sure-footed either," Iommi writes in his memoir. "He once fell over my pedal board. He was waving at the people, stepped back and, bang!, he went arse over head big time." Gillan also told Birch that it was Don Arden's idea to open the show with a crying baby blaring over the speakers and a dwarf made to look exactly like the demonic baby depicted on the Born Again album cover miming to the screaming. "We noticed a dwarf walking around the day before the opening show...And we're saying to Don, 'We think this is in the worst possible taste, this dwarf, you know?' And Don's going, 'Nah, the kids will love it, it'll be great.'"

The tour is most infamous, however, for the gigantic Stonehenge props the band used. Iommi recalls in his autobiography that it was Butler's idea but the designers took his measurements the wrong way and thought it was meant to be life-size. Months later, while rehearsing for the tour at the Birmingham NEC, the stage set arrived. "We were in shock," writes Iommi. "This stuff was coming in and in and in. It had all these huge columns in the back that were as wide as your average bedroom, the columns in front were about 13 feet high, and we had all the monitors and the side fills as well as all this rock.  It was made of fiberglass and wood, and bloody heavy." The set would be lampooned in Rob Reiner's 1984 rock music mockumentary This Is Spinal Tap, with the band having the opposite problem of having to use miniature Stonehenge stage props. Butler has said that he told the associate scriptwriter of the film the story of the band's performances with their "Stonehenge" stage props. In an interview for the documentary Black Sabbath: 1978–1992, Gillan claims Don Arden had the dwarf walk across the top of the Stonehenge props at the start of the show and, as the tape of the screaming baby faded away, fall back "from about thirty-five feet in the air on this big pile of mattresses. And then, 'Dong!' The bells start and the monks come out, the whole thing.  Pure Spinal Tap." The band toured Europe first, playing the Reading Festival (a performance that is included on the 2011 deluxe edition of Born Again) and also playing in a bullring in Barcelona in September. Sabbath performed Gillan's hit with Deep Purple, "Smoke on the Water", on the tour, with Iommi explaining in his memoir, "it seemed like a bum deal for him not to do any of his stuff while he was doing all of ours. I don't know if we played it properly but the audience loved it.  The critics moaned; it was something out of the bag and they didn't want to know then." In October, the band took the Stonehenge set to America but could only use a portion of it at most gigs because the columns were too high. The set was eventually abandoned. A music video for "Zero the Hero" was also released, featuring performance footage of the band onstage interspersed with scenes involving several grotesque characters performing experiments on a witless young man in a haunted house filled with rats, roosters and a roaming horse.

Standard edition
All songs credited to Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler, Bill Ward, and Ian Gillan, except where noted.

2011 deluxe edition disc 2
Tracks 3-11 recorded live at the Reading Festival on Saturday, August 27, 1983 and first aired on Friday Rock Show via BBC Radio 1.

Personnel
Black Sabbath
 * Ian Gillan – vocals
 * Tony Iommi – guitars, guitar effects, flute
 * Geezer Butler – bass, bass effects
 * Bill Ward – drums, percussion

Additional musicians
 * Geoff Nicholls – keyboards
 * Bev Bevan – drums (on 2011 Deluxe Edition – Disc 2, tracks 3–11)

 * Credits
 * Steve Barrett – art assistant
 * Black Sabbath – producer
 * Robin Black – producer, engineer
 * Stephen Chase – engineer, assistant engineer
 * Paul Clark – co-ordination
 * Hugh Gilmour – liner notes, design, reissue design, original sleeve design
 * Ross Halfin – photography
 * Steve Joule – artwork, cover design
 * Peter Restey – equipment technician
 * Ray Staff – remastering
 * Chris Walter – photography

title: Born Again (Black Sabbath album)


text:
Beiker Graterol

Beiker Graterol [baker / grahterol] (born November 9, 1974) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed pitcher who pitched in one game for the Detroit Tigers in 1999.

Career
Graterol was signed by the Toronto Blue Jays as an amateur free agent in 1992. After spending a few years pitching in the Dominican Republic, he joined the Blue Jays system in 1996 with the St. Catharines Stompers of the New York–Penn League. In 1998, he pitched for the Lara Cardinals en route to a Venezuelan Professional Baseball League championship. On December 14, 1998, he was traded by Toronto to the Detroit Tigers for Eric Ludwick. The Tigers invited him to Major League spring training in 1999.

Graterol made his first and only Major League appearance on April 9, 1999 when he started for the Tigers against the New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium in place of an injured Bryce Florie. Graterol lasted only four innings in a rainy game, surrendering seven earned runs and three home runs, including a grand slam by Chili Davis. After the game, Graterol told reporters he would learn from his mistakes and "be better next time." However, before appearing in another game, he was demoted to the Triple-A Toledo Mud Hens on April 17, never to return to the Major Leagues.

Graterol was unable to find even a minor league contract after the 1999 season and spent 2000 with the Mexico City Tigres of the Mexican League. After a poor year in 2000, Graterol never pitched in affiliated ball again. Later in his career, he pitched for the Rimini Baseball Club of the Italian Baseball League.

Internationally, Graterol played for the Venezuela national baseball team at the 2007 Baseball World Cup.

title: Beiker Graterol


text: Template:USSR flags

title: Template:USSR flags


text:
Talk:Born Again (Black Sabbath album)

Source for critical opinion
Terrorizer Magazine (#168, March 2008) says, "This titanic collision twixt Sabbath and Gillian was treated with outright derision on its release." Featured in a column called "Lost Classics and Follies 2," writer Jim Martin says the album "flirts with brilliance," praising Iommi's guitar, Geoff Nicholl's keyboards, and Gillian's "monumentally unhinged, go-for-broke" vocal performance. --Torchpratt (talk) 07:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is this page in ALL CAPS?? 66.32.125.39 18:35, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

This seems more like a review than an article --70.112.113.123 17:04, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's terrible. Rewrite, please.

Sound
Is this album radically different from Mob Rules? It's really difficult to find any Sab albums from the 80s/90s around my house. Dark Executioner 20:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Some say it's "muddier" but to me it's "darker" than the Dio-era albums. I'm in a definite minority of those who love the album.--MarshallStack 17:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

 * It's basically very, very bassy; it sounds as if everything except Gillan is coming through cotton wool. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk)

What was the other Dio-era song the band did on this tour? I have a bootleg from 1983 in Worcester, Massachusetts and the only Dio-era song the band did was part of "Heaven and Hell" (segue from "Zero The Hero").--MarshallStack 17:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"Neon Knights" was played as the opener for the last few dates of the North American tour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.97.197 (talk) 05:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Flute?
The album credits Tony Iommi with playing flute on this album. I cannot hear any flute, does anyone know what track contains flute? J04n (talk) 01:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Seperate page for tour
I believe that the information on the Born Again tour should be a page unto itself, separate from the album page. What do others think about this? J04n (talk) 02:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I just separated the tour information into its own separate page. J04n (talk) 05:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Remastering
I have no way to confirm this other then perhaps this link, but in this interview better Tony Iommi and Bruce Dickinson Tony mentions that he will indeed be remastering this album at one point. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ow_23_10_2009/ - unfortunately, this link will expire October 30th, so if someone else could find another verifying link that would be good.

Reference to the Born Again Cover
It seems to me that the referenced cover is the wrong one. There is absolutely no resemblance between these covers.

What might be the idea is that the version depicted is the maxi single and the version which is referenced is a re-mix. Please rectify either the reference to another cover or rectify the Depeche Mode, New Life article with the appropriate cover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonnypoulsen (talk • contribs) 14:34, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Also you should include Steve Joule story about the cover or at least make a reference to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonnypoulsen (talk • contribs) 14:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Born Again (Black Sabbath album)


text:
Flag of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic

The flag of the Armenian SSR was adopted on 17 December 1952 by the government of the Armenian SSR. The flag is similar to the flag of the Soviet Union but has a ¼-width horizontal blue stripe in the middle. The red represents the "revolutionary struggle of the working masses" and the golden hammer and sickle represents the peasants' and workers' union.

History
The first flag of the Armenian SSR was introduced in the constitution, accepted on 2 February 1922 by the First Congress of Soviets of the Armenian SSR. The 1922 flag was red with the Cyrillic characters ССРА (SSRA for Социалистическая Советская Респу́блика Арме́ния, Sotsialisticheskaya Sovetskaya Respublika Armeniya) in the upper left corner.

That flag existed only for a month, because on March 12 the Armenian SSR united with the Georgian SSR and the Azerbaijan SSR under the Transcaucasian SFSR (TSFSR), that was split again into these three republics in 1936.

Between 1936 and 1940, the flag was red with the gold hammer and sickle in the top left hand corner. The Armenian characters ՀԽՍՀ (HKSH for Հայկական Խորհրդային Սոցիալիստական Հանրապետություն, Haykakan Khorhrdayin Sotsialistakan Hanrapetutiun) were in gold beneath the hammer and sickle.

Between 1940 and 1952, after reforms on Armenian language, the Armenian characters in the top left hand corner beneath the hammer and sickle were changed to ՀՍՍՌ (HSSR for Հայկական Սովետական Սոցիալիստական Ռեսպուբլիկա, Haykakan Sovetakan Sotsialistakan Respublika) staying in gold.

The 1952 flag was replaced in 1990 by the tricolor flag of Armenia based on the 1918 flag of the first Republic of Armenia.


text:
Flag of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic

The flag of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic was a plain red flag with a golden hammer and sickle and a gold-bordered red star in its upper canton and an horizontal dark blue band on the bottom fourth, representing the Caspian Sea.

The last version of the flag of the Azerbaijan SSR was firstly introduced by K.M.A. Kyazimzade, director of the Azerbaijan State Museum of Art, and was officially adopted as national flag by the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan SSR on October 7, 1952. Definition was as follows:

The text of national flag in the Constitution of the Azerbaijan SSR was updated on August 18, 1953. However, the text didn't specify the proportion of the hammer and sickle. On May 5, 1956, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan SSR approved the "Regulations on the State flag of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic", which further regulated the details of the elements on the flag. On March 16, 1981, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan SSR further issued a decree specify that no hammer and sickle should be printed on the reverse side of the flag.

History
From the second part of 1921 to 1922, Azerbaijan SSR used a red flag with the yellow Cyrillic characters АССР (ASSR). On March 12, 1922, the Azerbaijan SSR united with the Georgian SSR and the Armenian SSR under the Transcaucasian SFSR (TSFSR), that was split again into these three republics in 1936.

In 1937, a golden hammer and sickle was added in the top left-hand corner, with beneath the Latin characters AzSSR in a serif font in place of the Cyrillic characters. A third version was issued in 1940s, and had AzSSR substituted by its Cyrillic version АзССР.

The last version of the flag was adopted by the Azerbaijan SSR on October 7, 1952. It was the flag of the Soviet Union, with a horizontal blue band on the bottom fourth. The 1952 flag was discarded on February 5, 1991, when the flag of Azerbaijan SSR based on the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic was re-introduced.


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Flag of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic

The Flag of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic was adopted on 25 December 1951. Prior to this, the flag was red with the Cyrillic characters БССР (BSSR) in gold in the top-left corner, surrounded by a gold border. Between 1937 and the adoption of the above flag in the 1940s, the flag was the same, but with a gold hammer and sickle above the Cyrillic characters and no border. Between 1919 and 1937, the flag was red, with the Cyrillic characters ССРБ (SSRB) in the top left-hand corner. In early 1919, a plain red flag was used. The final BSSR flag was used until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. A flag based on this Soviet design is used as the national flag of Belarus.

Design on the 1951 flag
In the end of the 1940s, the political need had arisen to have somewhat visually different designs of the flags of the USSR republics, especially for those that were UN members. For the BSSR flag, the image of the Belarusian folk design was chosen as a distinctive feature of the flag. The picture of the embroidery on the «ruchnik» (handtowel) had been found in the pre-World War II archives of the Belpramsavyet. The embroidery had been made in 1917 by peasant Ms. Matrona Markyevich of the village Kastsilishcha of the Sennin region, and had been named «The Rising Sun». Artist M. I. Gusyew had prepared the project of the BSSR flag, basing it on the embroidery, with several symbolic elements added.

Symbolically, the design on the BSSR flag is decoded as follows (considering design strip positioned horizontally):
 * the central rhombus figure symbolises the rising Sun;
 * the horn-like figures to the left and right of it symbolise wealth and welfare;
 * the figure inside of the rhombus is the "key to happiness";
 * the rectangular figure with the smaller rectangles adjoining from the left and right is the "votive sign", expressing the desire for fulfillment of hopes;
 * the pattern figure symbolises bread (it was absent from the original embroidery, added after some discussion).

Note: All proper names and places' names in this article are rendered in BGN/PCGN.

Previous flags of the Soviet era
Before 1951, several different flags had been in use since the Revolution. The earliest flag was plain red, and was used in 1919 during the existence of the Lithuanian–Byelorussian SSR. After the formation of the Byelorussian SSR, the lettering ССРБ (SSRB) was added in gold to the top hoist. This design was changed in 1937, when a hammer and sickle and red star were placed above the letters; at the same time, the typeface was changed, and the text of the lettering was altered to БССР (BSSR). During the 1940s, the hammer and sickle and red star were removed from the flag, and a gold border was added to the letters. This flag remained in use until the adoption of the 1951 flag. In August 1991, the white-red-white flag was reintroduced as the new flag of the newly independent Belarus. In 1995, the 1951 version was reused with minor changes: the communist symbol was removed and the white-in-red ornament changed to a red-in-white one.


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Vektor R4

The Vektor R4 is a South African 5.56×45mm assault rifle. It entered service as the standard service rifle of the South African Defence Force (SADF) in 1980. In South African service, the R4 replaced the R1, a variant of the 7.62×51mm FN FAL. It was produced by Lyttelton Engineering Works (LIW, "Lyttelton Ingenieurswerke"), now Denel Land Systems.

The weapon is a licensed variant of the IMI Galil assault rifle with several modifications; both the stock and magazine are now made of a high-strength polymer and the stock was lengthened, adapting the weapon for the average South African soldier. Other detailed differences include the R4's lack of a carry handle and a number of improvements made to its internal operating mechanism.

Operating mechanism
The R4 is a selective fire, gas-operated weapon that fires from a closed bolt. As with the IMI Galil, the operating system is derived from that of the AK-47. It uses ignited powder gases channelled through a vent in the barrel to drive a long stroke piston located above the barrel in a gas cylinder to provide power to the operating system. The weapon features a self-regulating gas system and a rotary bolt breech locking mechanism (equipped with two locking lugs), which is rotated by a helical camming groove machined into the bolt carrier that engages a control pin on the bolt. Extraction is carried out by means of a spring-loaded extractor contained in the bolt and a protrusion on the left guide rail inside the receiver acts as the fixed ejector.

Internally, the R4 differs from the Galil in the addition of a new gas tube lock to prevent the tube from shaking loose during sustained fire, and the introduction of much wider sear. It also has a unique bolt and firing pin, both of which were redesigned to resolve an issue where the firing pin would set off a chambered cartridge with the bolt closed. The new firing pin is secured by a polyurethane piece inside the bolt except when positively driven forward.

The R4's parts can be interchanged with the Galil ARM with Valmet rifle magazine made for 5.56 NATO caliber being usable for the R4.

Features
The R4 is hammer-fired and uses a trigger mechanism with a 3-position fire selector and safety switch. The stamped sheet steel selector bar is present on both sides of the receiver and its positions are marked with letters: "S"— indicating the weapon is safe, "R"—single-fire mode ("R" is an abbreviation for "repetition"), and "A"—fully automatic fire. The "safe" setting disables the trigger and secures the weapon from being charged.

The R4 is fed from a steel or synthetic box magazine with a 35-round cartridge capacity (designed to use the 5.56×45mm NATO cartridge with the M193 projectile). Steel magazines were initially manufactured for the weapon, but this was replaced by a nylon and fiberglass copy to reduce weight. A 50-round steel magazine was produced during the 1980s.

The R4 has a side-folding tubular stock, which folds to the right side of the receiver. The rifle's handguard, pistol grip, magazine, stock arms and shoulder pad are all made from a synthetic material, making it lighter in weight than the equivalent original Galil, which uses heavier metal and wood in these components.

For regular field maintenance and cleaning, the firearm is disassembled into the following components: the receiver and barrel group, bolt carrier, bolt, return mechanism, gas tube, receiver dust cover and magazine.

Sights
The rifle has conventional iron sights that consist of a front post and a flip-up rear sight with 300 and 500 m apertures. The front sight is adjustable for windage and elevation and is installed in a durable circular shroud. The rear sight is welded at the end of the receiver's dust cover. For nighttime use, the R4 is equipped with self-luminous tritium light dots (exposed after placing the rear sight in an intermediate position) installed in a pivoting bar to the front sight base, which folds up in front of the standard post and aligns with two dots in the rear sight notch.

Upgrade
DLS has introduced remanufactured models of the R4, R5, R6 that have Picatinny rails. DLS has also introduced grenade launchers, grips and other underbarrel attachments.

Variants

The South African Navy, South African Air Force, South African Military Health Service, and South African Police Service adopted a short carbine version of the 5.56 mm Galil SAR, which was license-manufactured as the R5. The R5, when compared to the larger R4, has a barrel that is 130 mm shorter, together with a shorter gas system and handguard. It also lacks a bipod, and the flash hider does not support rifle grenades.

In the 1990s, an even more compact personal defence weapon variant of the R5 was developed for armoured vehicle crews, designated the R6, which has a further reduced barrel and a shortened gas cylinder and piston assembly. This reduced the barrel length to 279 mm.

Denel developed prototypes for the R7 and R8, a heavy barrelled squad automatic weapon and a locally produced Micro-Galil, respectively, but it is unclear whether these entered production.

LIW/DLS also introduced a line of semi-automatic variants of the R4, R5 and R6 called the LM4, LM5 and LM6 respectively, built for civilian and law enforcement users. The rifles were marketed by Musgrave, with the joint venture between the Lyttelton and Musgrave conferring the rifle's "LM" prefix.

Users

 * 🇧🇮 Burundi: Burundian rebels
 * Eswatini: Eswatini Police
 * 🇭🇹 Haiti: Used by the Armed Forces of Haiti and Haitian National Police
 * 🇱🇸 Lesotho
 * 🇲🇼 Malawi: Malawi Police Service.
 * Republic of the Congo: 15,900 R4/R5s were delivered to Congolese security forces in 1996 and 1997.
 * 🇷🇼 Rwanda: Imported for use in the Rwandan National Army as of 1992. Some captured by the Rwandan Patriotic Front.
 * 🇷🇸 Serbia: Used by the Special Brigade and by the SAJ.
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa: Standard issue rifle of the South African National Defence Force. The compact R5 carbine is popular among police and special response units.
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa: Standard issue rifle of the South African National Defence Force. The compact R5 carbine is popular among police and special response units.

In popular culture
•Savior (film): 1998 war film starring Dennis Quaid set during the Bosnian War. Quaid's character uses an R4 modified as a designated marksman rifle. According to Imdb, this weapon would have been used by the Bosnian Serb military which purchased several thousand R4 rifles during the conflict, but not by the French Foreign Legion. The modifications include a scope mounted on an AK-style receiver mount (the original Galil scope mount notch was replaced by a lightning cut on the R4), along with a cheek rest which has been installed on the original folding stock and removal of the sights.

•Hotel Rwanda: 2004 war drama starring Don Cheadle set during the Rwandan genocide; in this film a Rwandan soldier is seen using an R4 in several scenes.

•Machine Gun Preacher: 2011 biopic war film starring Gerard Butler, where soldiers of the South Sudan People's Defence Forces are seen using modified R4s.

title: Vektor R4


text:
Talk:Flag of Armenia

Comment
In determining what color to consider the bottom (it looks yellow-orange to me), which set does this flag belong in, List of flags with yellow or List of flags with orange?? 66.32.125.39 18:39, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

 * It's orange. Xenophon777 (talk) 17:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

1885 Flag
Hmm, I found some websites that contradict what is written here:

 * Flags of the World
 * Hrono

So, is it horizontal red, green, and white bands or vertical red, green, and blue.--Crzycheetah 22:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, these websites do not contradict this article. In fact, they reaffirim the following passage from it:
 * While in France, Alishan also designed a second flag, identified today as the "Nationalist Armenian Flag." It too was a tricolor, however, it was a vertical tricolor, like the French flag. Its colors were red, green, and blue respectively, representing the band of colors that Noah saw after landing on Mount Ararat. -- Clevelander 23:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Correct me If I am wrong, but the flag in the article has red, green, and white colors while in those websites, the colors are red, green, and blue. So, it's not just a matter of alignment, but colors too.--Crzycheetah 00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you seen this website?: http://www.orient.am/armenia/flag.html -- Clevelander 00:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. P.S. I suggest you to compare the coat of arms(1918) on orient website with you colored.--Crzycheetah 00:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I see. I'll fix that when I get a chance. -- Clevelander 00:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Mising flags
Arsacid flags, Marzpaanate banners (looked like the iron cross), Bagratid flags and the various Cilician flag.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 16:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of those flags are in this website http://www.armenianheritage.com/hiflag.htm but I don't know if it is copyrighted or not. ROOB323 18:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The Marzbanate period flag looks doable in Inkscape, but not sure when I can draw it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's too many flags. Why don't we create a new article and name it "list of Armenian flags", for example, and then link to it in this article?--Crzycheetah 04:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm up for that. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have just created the List of Armenian flags. All of the other flags can be listed there.

Featured Article
Nice work everyone who contributed to this article in making this article one of the good articles in wikipedia. ROOB323 22:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A few points
Before this makes the main page:

 * What's the Armenian Supreme Council? Is it the Supreme Soviet? If so, that would probably be the more familiar term.
 * What's the significance of the 2006 law? Did it change the 1990 flag at all?
 * There's still some confusion about what flag was being used between August 1990 and September 1991. Did the SSR flag remain official until '91? Were both flags used for a year? This says the Soviet-era flag was used until 1990; the article implies 1991.
 * Could we put in the Armenian name for the flag? Biruitorul (talk) 04:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Armenian Supreme Council is similar to what the Supreme Soviet was for Armenian SSR. The key word is similar.
 * It created the rules on how to use the flag. The Usage section lists them.
 * In August 1990, Armenia declared its independence from the Soviet Union and adopted this tricolor, but it gained its independence in September 1991. This is explained at the end of the Armenian SSR subsection''.
 * What would it add to the article?-- Crzycheetah 08:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, put it this way: each republic had its own mini-Supreme Soviet along the lines of the central one -- see Supreme Soviet. The question is: is Հայկական ՍՍՀ Գերագույն Խորհուրդ what this article gives as "Armenian Supreme Council"? Because if so, "Armenian Supreme Soviet" ("Soviet" of course meaning "Council") would be the preferable translation. (For instance, "Armenian Supreme Soviet" gives 152 Google Books hits while "Armenian Supreme Soviet" gives just 8.)
 * OK, then what I would do is write "On June 15, 2006, the Law on the National Flag of Armenia, governing its usage, was passed by the Armenian Parliament." ... "The 2006 law concerning the national flag of Armenia..." That way there's less ambiguity.
 * The way the current text reads, it seems as though Armenia had two flags for a year. However, what seems to be the case is that the tricolor was adopted in August 1990 and with that, the SSR flag abandoned then and there. If you read it the same way, I'd suggest changing the caption to "1952-1990", and changing the text to "This flag remained unaltered until August 1990, when Armenia formally declared its intention to become sovereign and independent of the Soviet Union, and the pre-Soviet tricolor was immediately restored. The tricolor had been used previously by Armenian national movements since May 1989, when the Communist authorities legalized its display in the face of increasing nationalist agitation."
 * You're right - I thought the other Flag FAs had it, but I was wrong. Biruitorul (talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made the changes on your first two points.(Thanks!) As for the flag explanation, you're assuming that the SSR flag was abandoned in August 1990. Outside of Armenia, the SSR flag was still used to represent Armenia, since Armenia was officially part of the Soviet Union. In September 1991, Armenia officially became an independent republic and that's when the SSR flag was abandoned.-- Crzycheetah 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those changes. Let me try to work through point 3 a little more, though, just to make sure the article is accurate.
 * The Supreme Soviets were the legislatures of the republics, and they had authority over national symbols. For most of the USSR's history, this was largely symbolic; they did what the centre told them. In 1988/9, though, it began to matter more as opposition movements took control of the Soviets and they began to function somewhat like Western parliaments. (It was in May 1990 that the nationalist Ter-Petrosian's APNM won power.) Now, the political chronology is as follows:

 * 23 August 1990: the Armenian SSR declared its sovereignty and changed its name to the Republic of Armenia.
 * February 1991: Supreme Soviet approved referendum on independence.
 * July 1991: Armenia and Georgia sign a Treaty on Interstate Relations. (So Armenia was already behaving like a state.)
 * 21 September 1991: Armenia held a referendum on secession from the USSR.
 * 23 September 1991: the results were announced (99.3% for independence), which immediately led the Supreme Soviet to unanimously declare independence.
 * 2 March 1992: Armenia joined the UN.

"On May 11 [1989] a mass demonstration of hundreds of thousands of Armenians was permitted, and the protesters appeared with the tricolor, the flag of the brief days of Armenian independence, to demand reunification [with Karabakh] and the release of all Armenian political prisoners. For the first time, high-level officials of the Armenian government attended the rally. During this same period, the first secretary of the Armenian Communist party took the unprecedented step of urging for the official recognition of the tricolor flag and of the pre-Soviet independence day, May 28." (Political Communication: Engineering Visions of Order in the Socialist World, p. 102, by Sarah Sanderson King, Donald P. Cushman, 1992, SUNY Press.)

"The new Armenian leader Suren Harutiunian quickly decided to run before the prevailing nationalist wind. A week after he took office, on 28 May 1988, Harutiunian allowed the outlawed flag of the First Armenian Republic, the red-blue-and orange tricolor, to be unfurled for the first time in almost seventy years in Yerevan. (Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War, pp.60-1, by Thomas De Waal, 2003, NYU Press.)

 * Now, you write, "Outside of Armenia, the SSR flag was still used to represent Armenia". But where? Inside Armenia (which is what really matters, I would submit), the tricolor was used. Outside the USSR, probably no flag was used officially, since Armenia, not yet independent, wasn't part of any international organisations. In Moscow: well, I don't know. But keep in mind that the Supreme Soviet - legally constituted, operating fully within the laws of the USSR and the Armenian SSR - was the relevant decision-making body, and it decided to change the flag in August 1990, meaning that at that point, the tricolor became Armenia's sole flag. So let me propose a revised text, to be added after "a horizontal blue stripe was added".

"In late May 1988, amid rising nationalist tensions, Armenia's new Communist party leader allowed the banned tricolor of the DRA to fly in Yerevan for the first time in over sixty years.[1] A year later, following a mass demonstration where the tricolor was flown, he urged its official recognition.[2] This came on 24 August 1990, a day after the Armenian Supreme Soviet declared the republic's sovereignty. At that point, just over a year before Armenia gained formal independence from the USSR, the tricolor replaced the 1952 flag." Biruitorul (talk) 23:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, you make the necessary changes, since you did al the research. I am not opposing it.-- Crzycheetah 23:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you; I went ahead and modified it. If, of course, you have disagreements, do let me know, since you were much more involved in the article as a whole - my changes were mostly cosmetic. But I think it reads more clearly now. Also, what do you think of this box for the national anthem quote? If you like it and put it in, you may wish to use a tag for readability. Biruitorul (talk) 00:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If there was a foreign nickname for this flag, similar to what the Hinomaru is, I can see including that in the article. But since there is none, we don't have to put the Armenian name into this article (except as a interwiki link). Overall, I like the work that was done on this article and congrats for getting this featured. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the changes you made. I think that box would look better if there was some text next to it, but since there is no text, I prefer it to stay as is. -- Crzycheetah 01:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a problem - I'm all for content over decoration, and the current look is just fine. Biruitorul (talk) 02:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment, I'm not quite sure if I understand this discussion but I think the name of the flag in Armenian is relevant, particularly if it's anything other then flag of Armenia regardless of whether it's a nick name. Even if it's 'tricolour' in Armenian, I think that is relevant and should be in the article. For example, Flag of France gives several common names in French, particularly relevant in this case because 'le tricolore', which it is sometimes called in English is not evidentally actually used in French. Flag of the People's Republic of China and Flag of India also give the names in Mandarin and Hindi respectively. Flag of Malaysia gives the recently adopted name in Malay, particularly relevant in this case because it may sometimes be called by the name in English in Malaysia (I've never heard the name 'Stripes of Glory' actually used). Even Flag of Russia gives the name in Russian in the infobox... Heck Tricolore gives the names in various languages (although the Russian one doesn't seem to agree with the article). I guess the name of the flag is Հայաստանի դրոշը but I'm not sure so I'll leave it to someone else to add if relevant Nil Einne (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added the Armenian translation of the word "tricolour', but I still don't understand why it's needed. -- Crzycheetah 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation
Hate to do this, but there appears to be copyright violation on this page from one of the sources used:. Site they are taken from states 'Copyright Armenian Heritage Organisation' on its front page, although the page the material is taken from says that it comes from the Atlas of Historical Armenia by H. K. Babessian. Not sure whether that means the source itself is a copyvio.
 * First para of 'History' is word for word almost identical to the first para on the page 'Flag of Armenia' (link given above).
 * Second para of 'History' (19th Century) starts with a very close paraphrase of the sixth para of 'Flag of Armenia'.
 * Fourth para of 'History' (Democratic Republic of Armenia) contains another direct lift, taken from the second to last para of 'Flag of Armenia'.

I would just delete the offending bits, but I'm a bit uncertain of the protocol for a TFA! 4u1e (talk) 08:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, fixed those by re-writing or presenting as straight quotes. Given that someone cut and pasted those bits into this article, there will probably be others based on the other sources. If anyone knows that they have cut and pasted material from somewhere they shouldn't have (i.e. pretty much anywhere) it would be quicker if they fixed this themselves, rather than me trawling through the article and sources. 4u1e (talk) 18:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I personally find it's helpful to find who inserted the copyvio material, firstly to warn them about the unacceptability of their behaviour, and secondly it helps to track down any other copyvio material they may have contributed Nil Einne (talk) 19:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately this violation appears to have been inserted by User talk:Crzycheetah. As a heavy contributor to this article and wikipedia, I hope it was an accident and a once off... Nil Einne (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hopefully. I've since removed another one, so I'm not sure. I'll drop a note at his talk page. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Usage section can't be considered a copyvio, since that source just copies the law of the Armenian flag. How else can we put what the law says without losing some important facts? -- Crzycheetah 19:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The wording you've taken seems to me to be somebody's summary of the law, not the wording of the law itself. If I'm wrong and it's a direct quote from wherever the law is recorded, put it in quotes and reference directly to the law itself, if possible. 4u1e (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the problem I had while working on this article. There are little or no official sources for most of the information that should be here. That's why I used secondary sources. This website is the only source that mentions what the law states.-- Crzycheetah 19:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's frustrating, but it doesn't give us the right to shortcut the standards of wikipedia. The source you have used is FOTW's english translation of a French news story reporting on the original Albanian Armenian law announcement. If the two translations contain any degree of unique effort then simply copying them would surely infringe the copyright of one or both of the translators. 4u1e (talk) 22:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, you are asking me to reword. Then please tell me how else I can say "public buildings"? Would "buildings belonging to the public" be acceptable? I just don't see it. I mean if I reword any of this, it will not make any sense anymore. -- Crzycheetah 23:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I just reworded what I could. Hopefully, this is acceptable now.-- Crzycheetah 23:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What I'm saying is to take the safe option and just present it as a direct quote from your source. If possible, it would be better sourced from the original, rather than from FOTW, but I accept that you have looked into this. Is there any other material on this page that was cut and pasted? I'm sorry to keep on about this, but it's really important that we are not seen to copy the work of others. 4u1e (talk) 08:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(→)Hm, so by adding "according to.." we avoid copyvio? I am confused about all this copyvio stuff right now. All of the information in this page is taken from the sources I listed. I thought it would violate WP:OR otherwise. It's weird that it violates WP:COPYVIO now.-- Crzycheetah 09:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Copyright is to do with the words used, not primarily the information they convey. If you quote someone, that is you say 'here is what so and so said' and present their words within quotes, then you are not violating their copyright. It has to be a shortish quote, of course; you can't reproduce the whole of Harry Potter and the Deathly Boredom and preface it with 'J.K. Rowling says:' :). You can't reproduce their words as your own, which is what we appear to be doing if the words are the same, or very nearly the same, and not presented as a quote. Hopefully what you have done in most of the article is to take the information from various sources and reproduce it in your own words. If there are any other places where this is not what you've done (i.e. you've cut and pasted), it would be helpful if you could point them out. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 10:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I found a copy of the Law, but it's in Armenian. I translated the part about usage of the flag and replaced the direct quote from the FOTW website. I would like you to check my translation with theirs and tell me whether it still violates their copyright. Thanks.-- Crzycheetah 21:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't violate FOTW's copyright - the wording's different (although note that I'm not a lawyer :)). Is that what you meant? Some things just can't be worded differently in any translation, but the para immediately after the list of places for flying the flag is worded quite differently to FOTW's version, which is the point I'm making about not just taking someone else's words. 4u1e (talk) 00:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. It should probably still be in quotes, but I'm less sure about that, because the translation's yours. 4u1e (talk) 00:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help here. I didn't write down all the buildings that were there, so technically speaking, this wasn't a direct quote. :) -- Crzycheetah 03:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

usage section
i think there should be a little more explanation in the usage section. for example, on national flag days, who is required to fly the flag? everybody? not everybody? what happens if you don't when you're supposed to.. do the flag police come? 82.6.96.66 (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If there was a reliable source, it would have been mentioned.-- Crzycheetah 19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Russian sources with other flags
More and more armenian flags, collected by Athanatoi (Russian text is published under GFDL). Also, flags at vexillographia.ru. Please, use them! There are flags, that can not be found in this featured article. --FHen(ru) 19:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, pay special attention at this page. There is a symbolism of Rubenid flags' color and the flag of "Russian vice-king", which may be flag of Armenian meliks (See source).--FHen(ru) 19:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Your first source is unreliable, since it's just a blog. The vexillographia.ru website was used as a source. As for other flags, you can take a look at the List of Armenian flags page.-- Crzycheetah 19:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The focus of the article should be the national flag; we can't cover every single flag possible related to Armenia. That is why we have that list Crzy pointed out. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Concise featured article
Never thought that a concise article would make it as a featured article! Meursault2004 (talk) 19:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Every featured article has been concise. Articles that are too long are never featured. Now go and look concise up in a dictionary then look at the articles that have been featured since the system began.

Armenian Name for Tricolor
Shouldn't a latin alphabet alliteration be provided for the Armentian name? 76.186.118.246 (talk) 05:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting
Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony  (talk)  11:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

About the software used to determine the RGB values of colors used in the Flag of Armenia
Is it necessary to add a note to mention the fact that the values are determined by using Jasc Paint Shop Pro, since many imaging software can easily determine the RGB value of a certain area of a particular image. And it does not mention which version is used to do the job (recent versions are distributed by Corel instead of Jasc), so I don't know whether or not to add an internal link to Jasc. Also, I think the article should mention the L*a*b values instead of RGB ones, since it is more intuitive to human than RGB. --RekishiEJ (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All the information should be sourced, so I noted that the RGB values were taken from Paint Shop Pro. I just added the version number; it's 8. If you can find the L*a*b values, they can be added next to the RGB values.-- Crzycheetah 02:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if there is an Armenia law that states what Pantone colors or any other colors should be used for the national flag. I'll see what I can do. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone still here? The RGB scanning is pretty clear, but it's mysterious where were the "most popular" flags taken? It's seems weird to me. Arantz (talk) 06:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Two versions of the flag
If no one minds, I will replace the versions describtion with other material, as it's seems funny to state about two prettey well known flags among all those that exist on internet. Arantz (talk) 13:01, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Colors solved
SARM, the Standards Agency of Armenia, has put the document "AST 50:2012 - General Specifications of the Republic of Armenia flag" online and on page 8, this confirms the colors as reported by Yeraguyn.com. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:24, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Armenia gives different RGB. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.156.36.56 (talk) 12:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Flag of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia under the Lusignan Dynasty (1341-1375).svg

Featured article concerns
This 2007 featured article does not quite meet the current standards (see WP:FACR). There is significant uncited text, the design section is only a single sentence, and there is significant MOS:SANDWICH and other layout issues. There also appears to be information in the lead not found in the body, such as some of the symbolism. Hog Farm Talk 18:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Myasnikovsky District
The Myasnikovsky District derives from the Armenian flag due it historically having a large Armenian population, does it deserve a mention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.133.254 (talk) 08:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If a source directly links them, probably at least a mention. CMD (talk) 08:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Flag of Armenia


text: User talk:66.32.125.39

title: User talk:66.32.125.39