text:
User talk:Jmabel/Archive 2

Tlon, ...
Objections removed; meant to do it sooner but got bogged down this weekend. you can move this up to the 'uncontested' section of FAC at your leisure.

I do still hope that the article eventually
 * 1) references more than one source of 3d-party analysis; (should be a collection of the analysis of others, not original analysis by the article's authors)
 * 2) puts the work in the context of the author's life and other works

- +sj+ 04:19, 2004 Mar 30 (UTC)

Civil Constitution of the Clergy
Since you wrote this article, would you have enough information to write one about the 1905 Law on the Separation of Church and State? :-) David.Monniaux 23:38, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Iron Guard
(Re your edit)

I personally find the changes you made to be the perfect reflection of what really happened at that point in Romania's history. It's still a very touchy topic even in Romania however, let alone the dissenting external views, so I think it's going to be contested one way or the other sooner or later (i.e. either "the Legion is the way" or "you would've had choices, it's Antonescu who was evil"). Whatever; anyway, I'm really happy with the current version, thank you! Paste Fericit! :) --Gutza 20:56, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Left-Right Politics
Could you take a look at the changes TDC has been making? I think it's garbage, but I think I've used up my reverts and want more opinions. Thanks. john 01:46, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

ISBN for 'old' books
Jmabel,

I can't find that anyone has answered your query about ISBN for '40s books from Argentina. There won't be one for any such edition, though perhaps for a newer edition there or somewhere else. The ISBN system developed much later, and wasn't retrospective. And, it's being revised (more digits, and so more coding space -- the reasons are rather similar to those which prompted the (current) change from IPv4 to IPv6)).

Perhaps this helps? ww 14:40, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi Joe, Just a quick thank you for restoring the vandalized link to my site at search engine optimization. Despite the fact it is repaired by many users, the same user constantly re-edits it. Thank you. Serps

I think I am a bit upset by the insistance of Stewacid to remove reference to altermondialism in the article. Yes, I am a purist as well. We have two words, altermondialisation and antimondialisation, and we do not use them in the same context. If you search en, for altermondialism or words similar, you will find two stubs on the topic. They appear to recover the same thing to you, but they do not for us. These are two words, with different implications. So, if this may not be explained in the article, and english people prefer using anti (which means against, different from what is normal) while other have decided to have two different words, with the one we use most being alter (which means a different path) that is up to you. But these are not similar and antiglobalization should link to Antimondialisation, not altermondialisation for purity. Yes, there is a point. We use different terms, these are not equivalent. So either we explain this in the article, or we properly link articles. Altermondialisme is NOT a proper link :-)

Post on cleanup page
(=Ridiculous cleanup request= like trying to edit the contents of a blender while it runs.)
 * Fantastic imagery. Just thought I'd express my appreciation.  -Seth Mahoney 23:52, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Henri Coandă
"You changed "the world's first jet plane" to "the world's first thermojet aircraft." Was there an earlier jet plane? If not, this should become "the world's first jet plane, a thermojet aircraft," or it really diminishes the accomplishment. Please reply either on my talk page or on Henri Coandă. -- Jmabel 19:29, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)"

 * Hello! Yea, it was just an attempt to be more precise and npov. While very notable, his 'thermojet' was a hybrid between jet and piston engine technology-not a 'jet' engine in the common sense of being a 'turbojet' or 'turbofan'.

 * The later success of jet turbine engines lied in harnessing the energy of the exhast stream to compress the air (in addition to power or thrust). Its misleading to say he had the first 'jet' plane, as it thereby insinuates his craft incorporated this critical breakthrough- which it did not.

 * I was quite impressed when I first heard of him, as I still am, but later let down upon discovery of the details of what the rather furtive title obsucured. Its like claiming a horse-drawn glider as the first powered aircraft flight- perhaps true and also interesting, but not quite what is expected or deserving of the general title.

 * Does it diminish the accomplishment?- well it brings it to a level commensurate with what was actually accomplished. Greyengine5 06:56, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Manual of Style
Hi, if you have time could you voice feedback on the bottom of Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style, the Country and City Sovereignty item. THanx for your work.Daeron 13:25, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nihilartikel translation
Hi there, thanks for cleaning up the Nihilartikel entry. I had already given Jwrosenzweig a note, since I feared my translation would not be good enough. I tried to stay very close to the german orignal, but even the original isn't easy to read (typical for german science works). So I see that you have already changed much since you wrote at my talk page - is there still something left that I should take a look at? You did good work there I think. One thing: The word "dictionary" does not equal the german word "Lexikon". A "dictionary" as I understand it is a book where you would look up translations - or maybe how to write a word (called "Wörterbuch"). A "Lexikon" is a book where you look up meanings and facts about things - well like in the Wikipedia. So I think "encyclopedia" is closer - or even "Lexicon"(if this is a common used word in English). I let the choice up to you of course. I like your chapter about "Motivations for the creation...". Very interesting. I will take it to the german version I think. :-). Have a good time --Thomas

 * By the way - I just realised that you know have the "The character and nature of Nihilartikels"-chapter twice. And the "Classification"-chapter is out.
 * The first sentence in the classification-chapter (in the german version) says nothing more than that Eco's work is a good help for classification. It does not go into specifics - and since I dont know what it really means, I just translated it word to word.
 * The second part of that chapter begins with a confusing sentence. But it realy says "The definition of fakes is characteristic for Nihilartikels". Then the indeted part tells that the intention of these fakes are often more than jokes - they have a philosophical thought behind them (about the "communication process"). Was it too confusing in the translation. Should I try to take it in again?--Thomas 01:25, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * A note here so Thomas and Jmabel will both see it :-) Thomas, "Wörterbuch" is a dictionary that translates between languages (this is what I was always taught).  "Lexikon" is a dictionary that simply offers meanings within one language.  The difference between a "Lexikon" and an encyclopedia is pretty significant: a normal dictionary's entry for Berlin, for example, would be something like "Berlin (noun) 1. The capital of Germany, located in such-and-such a province, population a-certain-amount" or something similar, while an encyclopedia would have five pages on its history, demographics, etc.  I haven't ever heard "Lexikon" translated as encyclopedia -- only as "dictionary".  Jwrosenzweig 18:15, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Adminship
I have nominated you for adminship. Please indicate at Requests for adminship whether you accept. Maximus Rex 19:35, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Ultimately, being an admin means a few things. You can revert the most recent edit to an article with one click -- helps fight vandalism.  You can protect pages (according to guidelines) and edit protected pages (useful if you ever play with the main page).  You can delete pages, again, according to guidelines.  And you can block the IP address or username of vandals.

 * I encourage you to accept the nomination unless you have strong feelings against it. If at any time you wish to revoke your admin status, you can simply leave a request on a developer's talk page and they'll do it no (well, few) questions asked. :-)  And the questions would mostly concern whether or not they could do anything to help you (if they suspected you were leaving in a huff).  I became an admin and never thought I'd do much with it.  As it is, I find it very convenient that I can delete or quickly revert vandalism when I stumble across it, and I meet more people as an admin (they ask for help, say, deleting a redirect so that they can move a page to a new title).  It's basically additional abilities (and some increase in status) without any necessary increase in responsibility (some admins never ever use their new abilities, and it's not a problem in the slightest).  There's my best explanation. :-)  Ask me if you want to know even more, or poke around at Administrators. Jwrosenzweig 23:03, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I would say that no one would _expect_ such a thing from you. :-) I understand your desire to avoid such things.  Many admins do avoid them, entirely successfully -- an advantage to having 200+ admins.  There's always one around who's happy to block a vandal, and no one else needs worry.  I've almost never been asked to block someone, and if I didn't feel like it (or didn't notice), the situation was always dealt with by someone else, usually fairly quickly.  If that's your main concern, I'd say accept, but of course I don't want to make you feel pressured to do so. On an unrelated tangent (which I'd been meaning to raise), I work in the tech field in Seattle, and I've pointed a couple of people at your resume -- don't know if it'll do any good, but I thought you might appreciate knowing that at least one Wikipedian is helping spread the word. :-) Jwrosenzweig 23:24, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Ack
Thanks for the heads up. -- Viajero 19:47, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Right-wing politics
Some preliminary notes: Support of capitalism doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article now. It ought to be prominently featured. The contemporary Libertarian movement with its roots in Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas stresses freedom but classical conservatism stressed traditional rule by the propertied class, first aristocrats, later capitalists with a strong role to be played by the church. In practice this translated into an authoritarian government, a situation fascism seeks to recreate by imposition, as in Spain. Nazism doesn't fit neatly into the right wing slot as it incorporated an enhancement of the status of lower and middle class Germans although the war negated fulfillment of those promises. Fred Bauder 13:33, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Fascism
Could you please check out the TALK page for Fascism? We need some help with WHEELER. Thanks. AndyL 19:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Peer Review Please
Hi, you were kind enough the other week to give comment on the Manual of Style : Talk page; could you review the article that John & Wik keep reverting over at Papua (Indonesian province) : Page history -- My version speaks for itself; different maps, more content, and honest facts not twisted racist non-sense. Their version paints Papuans as dumb blackmen lead around by a Reverend with a sing-song (please compare that paragraph to mine). Their version also removes the vital links to the US State Dept. document & the letter from JFK, without which US readers may have difficultly understanding why their government did what it did at that time.

Also they keep reverting over West Papuan Genocide - a perfectly good article that they apparently hate because the Yale University uses the term West Papua which they have expunged from their version at Human rights violations in western New Guinea. I'm hoping some peer review may stop Wik and friend.

They accuse me of POV, which I feel their article is loaded with where-as my article avoids any POV by simply listing known facts and allowing readers to form their own thoughts. Even Tannin explained that to them but it goes in one ear & out the other apparantly. Also English language users can really only search the Internet for the country title "West Papua", as Papua would only return PNG & New Guinea pages. The current Indonesian name of the region is actually Propinsi Papua. The name issue is discussed on the talk page for a waste of time, and the meaning of Papua is even in dictionaries, sometimes even West Papua is.Daeron 14:59, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi, just a quick note that I have apologies for lossing it; and found and responded to John's most recent statement on the article discussion page; I did at one point write a critique of the current silliness and a conclusion, I really do not know, or care, why they have fixated upon West Papua, but I am greatly concerned about the damage they can cause by promoting the Indonesian military's (West Papua is the main source of money for the military, and in Indonesia the military holds 38 seats in government as well as influnce meaning no-one can form government without the supoort of the military) line to the exclusion of know facts, not only to the article but also to the West Papuan people who's only hope IMHO is for the American public to become aware of West Papua and get the world's media to keep a light on the activities there. Hopefully without the after affects which East Timor suffered. Look at my selection of external links, I care about NPOV, because it helps the truth.Daeron 07:04, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I see that Daeron's been talking to you about the Papua issue. To be honest, I have absolutely no idea what Daeron is talking about much of the time in this dispute. Some of his accusations are utterly bizarre, and speak more to his own prejudices than to anything I've ever said. Like his accusation that the current version of the article paints Papuans as "stupid black men" because there's a mention of a reverend who wrote the Papuan national anthem. Or his accusation that I was somehow belittling that report by the Allard Lowenstein Foundation because I referred in passing and in jest to its namesake as a "crazy student leader", which he was (at that point I was still trying to be friendly with Daeron...his response to that bit made me realize that this was useless). Or his accusation that my discussing some things about the article with Wik at Wik's talk page somehow consists of a secret attempt to collude together to get around something or other. At any rate, I will admit to having very little background knowledge of the question of Papua before I got involved in this dispute. I have done some research on the internet since, and have found little to back up some of Daeron's claims. Anyway, I'm sorry you got dragged into all this. At this point, I kind of wish I hadn't been dragged into this, but here I am. I do see that at some point Daeron decided to make major additions, which were immediately reverted by Wik, and which I did not notice. So I will admit some culpability for that. Ah well, if you'd like to come in and have your say, I'd love to hear your opinion - I think this article needs some new blood more than anything else. As long as it's just Wik and Daeron and I, I think the low level reversion war is going to continue. john 07:42, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Not crazy crazy. I was, rather imprecisely, using crazy as a stand-in for eccentric or radical. I've always been bemused by his existence, because my mother's name, and my middle name, is Lowenstein. It was certainly not intended to be insulting. john 07:48, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

As I said, I was joking around, and not being very serious, because I thought at that point that some sort of agreement was fairly close. I meant no insult to Allard Lowenstein. It was a complete filler remark, generated by my surprise at seeing that the quoted source was associated with a man with whom I share a rather uncommon name. I was not saying that Allard Lowenstein was crazy in order to discredit a study done by a center named after him. john 07:49, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 * It must be my fault then, after all I am a 'raving lunatic'; or perhaps when you told Tannin that I was a 'raving' whatever, you meant that in a nice way; or when you told 172 that I was a 'lunatic' you meant that in a jesting fashion; I am very stupid and thought you probably meant the obvious meanings. Obviously Allard Lowenstein foundations legal opinion could not be trusted; though the page did list eight other reports and two speeches by US Congressman Faleomavaega about the forty years of killings and denial of rights. Indeed it could not be considered 'colonization', and you should immediatly tell Mr Faleomavaega off for citing West Papua (there's that name that doesn't exist again) throughout his opening speech at the UN Decolonization Committee, 2001.
 * Indeed after reading your various comments at Wik2 I am in awe of your NPOV; I even understand your reasoning that East Timor & West Papua are totally different and that the Papuans do not have a fraction of the East Timorese claims for independance, after all Timorese have breed out their primitive nature with superior Asian genes. And a 'Province' certainly, no doubt that it's just as safe for journalist and Papuans to walk the steets of Indonesian Papua as it is the Province of Bali. Don't worry, I'm just jesting.;-)Daeron 23:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

For context, my entire comment was "I don't think one study (by the Allard Lowenstein foundation, no less! That crazy student leader shares a surname with my mom, oddly enough) is enough for us to say definitively, in the article title, that this was genocide." It was complete filler. john 07:54, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I thought I've made clear that I didn't mean anything much at all. It was a complete throw away remark, and I was more expressing a familiarity with the existence of Allard Lowenstein than any judgment of him. I was using the word "crazy" in an utterly imprecise, vague sense. What I've read of Lowenstein (largely in books on the 68 presidential election) gave me the impression of eccentricity, but that's about it. But it's probably more personally idiosyncratic than anything. I grew up, before I had any knowledge of much of anything, having heard an occasional story from my parents about the existence of Allard Lowenstein, of how they had (I believe) on one occasion met him, and of some discussion of the possibility that he might be related to my mom's family (which has not one, but two Lowenstein branches). Beyond that, I only had a vague sense of who he was. Later on, reading about the aforementioned 68 election, I came across more detailed and coherent discussion of Lowenstein, and mostly was just surprised that this individual was of such importance, having before only had the vaguest sense of the whole thing. I recall from said readings, as I said, getting some sense of him as a rather strange figure - Teddy White was particularly patronizing, iirc. So, my use of the word crazy was certainly unfortunate, and I assure you that I meant approximately nothing by it, beyond, as I said, this vague sense of eccentricity and my own bemusement at the sight of my mother's surname. Re:your article on Lowenstein (man, I really jumped into a can of worms, huh?), by the way, I notice that you say he was gerrymandered out in 1970 - but the redistricting would not have gone into effect until the 1972 election. So what's up with that? john

Two guys I don't really know argue about Indonesia on my User talk page
Please see my responses on the Talk page first. Also, Province is defined in Wikipedia (unless reverted by someone) as having its own regional ghovernment; which West Papua does not. I included a statement from the US Government about Indonesian regional governance.Daeron 08:56, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Huh? The Province article says: "Province is a name for a subnational entity of government usually one step below the national level. In some countries an alternative term is used, e.g. state or department." And that's about it - no requirement of a "regional government." And what do you mean that it does not have a regional government? Surely there is an Indonesian governor and bureaucracy. According to, J.P. Solossa is the Governor of Papua. And here's a news article from 2002 referring to the "regional government" of Papua. At any rate, JMabel, can I assume from your most recent response that I've satisfied you with respect to Allard Lowenstein? john 09:09, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've been known to go off half-cocked, too, just wanted to know what I was dealing with here. -- Jmabel 19:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Correct John, in your country or mine, even a territory would have a 'Governor' or similar, and a bureaucracy; but as that US excerpt says that doesn't happen in regional Indonesia -- West Papua is even worse than that though. West Papua was one propinsi with the standard four regencies; then Megawati signed into effect an order to split it into three sections with four regencies each, except only one of those has actually been implemented and has even the pretense of 'government' which the US document refering to; the other two thirds don't even have that pretense.

 * In short, the country is not integrated into Indonesian society as a 'Indonesian Province' is, as sites like survival-international point out "soldiers generally view the Papuan people as little more than animals"; and the military is the government throughout the western half of Papua. To call it a province of Indonesia, would be to grossly mis-lead the reader into believeing Papuans share Indonesian law or other functions of society, they don't. That Swiss journalist story at the bottom of your page should have made that clear, and he was lucky, others have disappeared. It's why the entire Papuan population boycotted the Indonesian election last month, they are governed by the military.

What I came over to mention was a cute looking page that gives a one page 'snap-shot' of Indonesia propinsi that you'll hear of as trouble spots Indonesia after Suharto it's one of the many people who thought thing's have got to get better.Daeron 15:20, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Can you guys please argue the facts on the relevant talk page rather than on my user talk? Thanks. -- Jmabel 19:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, I had no intention of discussing this further on your user page. Thanks for the update on the gerrymandering - that certainly makes sense. john 20:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Plagiarism
I was quite upset when I saw that John had without permission or goodwill, lifted entire sections of my work onto his clipboard and pasted them into his re-incarnation of the West Papua page. Then I discovered when he did it, between his two above edits (07:42 and 07:48, 9 May); at 7:45 he quickly pasted my work into the page with a note inferring he was doing so after carefully making it NPOV. In fact, what he did was add his POV by again expunging any mention of the words West Papua, and inserting the term Province wherever possible -- to re-enforce his & Wik's views that Papuans are lucky to have an Asian government take care of them and that anyone mentioning West Papua must be out of the ordinary and a separatist.

These views are completely dis-honest. Fact, Indonesia invaded West Papua because it declared independance 1/Dec/1961. ; Indonesian invaded East Timor because it declared independance in 1975.

Indonesia killed a third of the East Timorese population; Indonesia has killed a third of the West Papuan population so far.

Neither East Timor nor West Papua were lucky to have their independance replaced by the Indonesian military (TNI); and especially West Papua did & does not enjoy the benefits of being an Indonesia Province like Java or maybe Bali does; people are not dancing in the streets of West Papua; Journalist and Papuans are put into jail and beaten by TNI soldiers. It is completely John's POV that he wants people to think of West Papua as enjoying the benefits of law and order. Read any of the reports which John & Wik keep reverting over at West Papuan Genocide, both the independance movement and the TNI killings have been on-going since 1962. The TNI is not only cruel, it's bizzare in it's cruelty.

When Wik first came to the West Papua page, I first thought he just didn't read the discussion page before he edited; then John came along and I thought good another person, but then John started playing tag with Wik in being obtuse to anything Tannin or I explained to them; I soon discovered that Wik had a history at Jerusalem against the local government, but at West Papua he was extreme pro-government just like John. Then last night I scanned what John was writing & having written to him at a Wik2 page. Then I checked the Jerusalem history page and found the only edit he did to the article itself.

That's when I realised what could cause, say John, Wik, & Stan, to be anti-government in Israel and pro-government in West Papua.

Sorry for posting here; but it's the only place his sudden need to look more reasonable & the timing of that at 07:45 9/May plagiarism, can be seen for what it is.. I suspect your question regards the Lowenstein foundation rattled him. It's all subsumption, I'm no mind-reader, I don't 'know' what's in another persons mind; but there does seem to be something there.Daeron 08:57, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks you for leaving me a message! No big with me either. :-) I've answered on Talk:Socialism. Kim Bruning 21:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Sysop
Congratulations! You are now an administrator after getting 100% support on RfA. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. Good luck. Angela. 00:08, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jmabel/Archive 2


text:
Talk:Elsie Wayne

Untitled
I think Brison's leaving is somewhat more complicated than Wayne's comments.

He had already made it known (in actions rather than words) he was leaving because of the Alliance merger. Wayne was no real threat to him, more an irritant than anything, since he had significant support as evidenced in his leadership bid.

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Elsie Wayne


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holocaust (disambiguation)

Old discussion from VfD
Discussion concluded and article kept on May 28, 2004

Presents deeply POV, controversial, rarely used terms as if they are common designations. John Kenney 04:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. You listed this page within ten minutes of its creation, with no effort to resolve the POV. The terms in question are in use. Yes, they're controversial terms - yes, that should probably be noted. I'll add it as soon as I'm done with this post. However, they're in use, and it's POV for us to deny their existence. Really, really POV, since the terms are in use in fairly mainstream discussion. (As I noted on the talk page, i was assigned The Black Holocaust for Beginners in a popular class at UChicago this year taught by one of the biggest names in the English department.) Try working to improve articles instead of simply calling for their deletion. Snowspinner 04:28, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * The English department, eh? Surely historical terms should have to be validated by use by historians. There are only 5,820 Google results for "Black Holocaust". Amazon reveals only 50 results for "Black Holocaust", most of which do not seem to be talking about the Black Holocaust but to be random hits. A very broad JSTOR search reveals no scholarly articles with "Black Holocaust" in the title (and no reviews of books with "Black Holocaust" in the title. Only nine articles in all of JSTOR even have the term "Black Holocaust" in them. Most of them use the term in quotation marks. John Kenney 04:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, man. I don't think I've ever seen a page so non-npov and yet so even-handed. Delete, unless you work a miracle. --Ben Brockert 04:34, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * I've already revised it to include mention of the controversy. It's a very tough page to write - the terms are so controversial, and in many ways very viscerally offensive, but they are in substantial, if not common usage. (Google either and you get well over a thousand results as phrases, and a couple hundred thousand as individual words). That said, I don't think we can fairly shy away from controversy and still claim to be NPOV - the term holocaust isn't just used to refer to the Nazi holocaust, for better or for worse, and it should be reflected. Snowspinner 04:39, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * It's not a miracle, but it's not quite so non-NPOV. No vote. --Ben Brockert 22:08, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * is a link to a current newspaper article that indicates that the term "Palestinian Holocaust" is in use. Snowspinner 04:48, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * uses "Muppet Holocaust". --Ben Brockert 22:08, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it's referring to a joke, whereas the Jerusalem Post is not. Snowspinner 23:10, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. It should mention that it's controvercial, and it does.  The Holocaust of WW2 should remain at the main holocaust title, which it is.  But if the terms are in use I think it's fair to have a disambig pointing people where to go. --Starx 04:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * The terms are barely in use, as far as I can tell, but with TUF-KAT's most recent changes, I think the article might be usable - I'm willing to be neutral about it, at least. I'll withdraw my objections to the article, and vote for keeping. john k 04:55, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I've edited the article slightly from TUF-KAT's form to at least make clear what the terms are. Is it still at least dimly acceptable in its current form? Snowspinner 04:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it's fine. john k 04:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Glad we could reach a compromise. Snowspinner 05:02, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Current version looks good to me. -- Chris 73 | Talk 05:05, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep - excellent job sorting this out. Delist early if nobody objects. - TB 08:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, definitely - David Gerard 16:19, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, seems like it is heading in a good direction. "Armenian holocaust", at least, is genuinely common usage. -- Jmabel 17:06, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: I’ve seen at least one of these terms - Armenian Holocaust - quite a few times. Other people have referred to the reign of Pol Pot, and the events in his killing fields, as a holocaust. Furthermore, applying that appellation to mass murders perpetrated by the Nazis is itself controversial (even among holocaust scholars), because the term literally refers to the total consumption of a sacrificial offering by fire: The controversy of this page, then, shouldn’t be enough to merit a delete. - Kael
 * Keep. I've heard these terms being used. -- Cymydog Naakka 07:44, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Legitimate disambig, legitimate terminology, what's POV here? Denni 03:54, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
 * Delete. No credible source for "Canadian Holocaust", therefore article lacks credibility. Denni 07:14, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
 * This statement of yours is an example of the Fallacy of Composition - ascribing the characteristic of one part to the whole without justification. Even if the term “Canadian Holocaust” doesn’t exist, there’s ample proof that the many of the other terms do. Kael
 * Well, why don't you edit out "Canadian Holocaust" and make it credible for crying out loud? This is Wikipedia! Cymydog Naakka 17:13, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * He's tried. I disagree with his assertion that the term doesn't exist, as he's mentioned repeatedly the book from which the term stems. At this point, the term is off-handedly mentioned as an occasionally used term in an entry on another term entirely. Snowspinner 17:18, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep - just because you can't agree isn't a reason to delete - Tεx τ urε 02:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Snowspinner and I were able to find common ground. I also went to the net to find additional material on each listing and citations/sites where possible. Please see the page history. My vote is now to keep. Denni 00:37, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
 * Keep, for sure. Regardless of the original state of the article, as it currently stands, it is an excellent piece of work. --Stormie 03:59, May 25, 2004 (UTC)


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Feeder (band)

Feeder is a British rock band formed in Newport in 1994. They have released 12 studio albums, 12 compilations, four EPs and 43 singles, spending a combined total of 185 weeks on the singles and albums charts as of 2024, while accumulating 25 top 75 singles between 1997 and 2012. At the peak of their commercial success, Feeder won two Kerrang! Awards in 2001 and 2003; they were inducted into their Hall of Fame in August 2019.

Feeder are one of the Britpop-era bands to have continued success long after their peak. Their 2024 album Black/Red debuted at number eight, three decades after the group formed, and 25 years after their first top 10 album Yesterday Went Too Soon.

The band was formed in 1994, although an earlier incarnation under the name of "Reel" was formed in 1992 by vocalist and guitarist Grant Nicholas, drummer Jon Lee and bassist Simon Blight, three of the four members of Raindancer, after the departure of that band's other member, guitarist John Canham. However, Blight left Reel later in 1992, and the band played with many session bassists before hiring Taka Hirose in 1994 and re-establishing themselves as Feeder; that year, the band signed with The Echo Label.

Feeder garnered media attention in 2001 for their third album, Echo Park, and its lead single, "Buck Rogers", which later became a UK top five single. Jon Lee died by suicide at his Miami home in January 2002, after which the remaining members began to record and play with former Skunk Anansie drummer Mark Richardson. They released their fourth album, Comfort in Sound, later that year; it touched on themes such as loss and coming to terms with death, while also exploring themes of positivity. Richardson was ultimately made an official member, remaining so until May 2009 when he returned to a reformed Skunk Anansie. Feeder have since worked with a roster of drummers live and in the studio, including Tim Trotter, Karl Brazil and former Elviss drummer Geoff Holroyde. Between 2010 and 2017, the band charted four more top 20 albums, with the latest of these being 2017's The Best of Feeder their second consecutive top 10 album. In 2019, the band signed a deal with Believe UK to release their tenth studio album, Tallulah.

Based on certifications alone, Feeder's overall track consumption in the UK is that of one million.

Early years (1994–1996)
In 1994, Reel/Real's bass player, Julian Smith, left the group. Grant Nicholas and Jon Lee went 'back to the drawing board'. They placed an advert in Loot for a new bass player. The advert was answered by Taka Hirose, a Japanese ex-pat working in London as a graphic designer. The trio changed their name to Feeder, after Nicholas's pet goldfish. In 1994, Feeder sent a demo tape to The Echo Label. Representatives at Echo listened to the tape, sent an employee to see the band play live, then offered them a record contract.

In 1995, Feeder recorded their first EP, Two Colours. Limited to 1,500 CDs and 1,000 7" vinyl singles, the band sold Two Colours at gigs. 1996 was an eventful year for Feeder. In February, Kerrang! and Edge gave away a promo tape the band made with producer Chris Sheldon. Called 'Two Tracker', it featured two songs that would feature on Feeder's debut album. In July, Feeder released their first commercially available release, Swim. In August, the band made their first appearance at the Reading festival and in October, they released their first single, "Stereo World".

Polythene and Yesterday Went Too Soon (1997–1999)
Feeder's debut album, Polythene, was released in May 1997. Polythene was acclaimed by critics, including Metal Hammer and Kerrang!, who placed the album at first and sixth in their respective end-of-year lists. Some critics labelled the band "The UK's answer to the Smashing Pumpkins", and also drew comparisons to The Pixies and Talk Talk.

Feeder would go on to release three further singles from Polythene, "Tangerine" (charting at No. 60 in the UK singles chart. ) and "Cement" (No. 53), "Crash" (No. 48). In October 1997, Feeder released their breakthrough single "High", which charted at No. 24. They also reissued Polythene, adding "High" to the track listing, along with some other changes.

In early 1998 Feeder toured the United States as a support act for Everclear. During their tour, the band released a re-worked version of "Suffocate" for UK release, which charted at No. 37. After their return to the UK, they played their own headline tour with Everclear in support. They stayed in the US for most of the year, playing various music festivals alongside a headline tour with "High", which had been released to radio stations and charted at No. 24 on the Billboard Modern Rock Tracks chart. The band travelled back to the UK to play at V98.

In March 1999, Feeder returned with a new single, "Day In Day Out", which charted at No. 31. Two more singles followed, "Insomnia" in May (charting at No. 22 and resulting in their first appearance on Top of the Pops ) and "Yesterday Went Too Soon" in August (charting at No. 20). That summer, Feeder added guitarist Dean Tidey to their live band. They performed on the main stage of the Reading and Leeds festivals.

The album Yesterday Went Too Soon was released on 30 August. Yesterday Went Too Soon entered the UK albums chart at No. 8, an unexpected position for the band.

The UK music press warmed to the album. It was Melody Maker's Album of the Week (and later No. 24 album of 1999 ), while Metal Hammer placed the album in at No. 6 and Kerrang! ranked it at No. 16. As of March 2003, the album has been certified gold shipping 100,000 units in the UK, with total counter sales standing at 110,000 as of February 2005.

In November, Feeder released a final single from the album, a re-recorded version of "Paperfaces", which charted at No. 41. The year ended with the band supporting the Red Hot Chili Peppers at Wembley Arena and Manic Street Preachers at the Millennium Stadium.

Echo Park and mainstream breakthrough (2000–2001)
Feeder spent most of 2000 writing and recording for their next album. They previewed new material at festivals around the country, including V2000 and Glastonbury. They would end the year promoting "Buck Rogers", their first single since November 1999 and then playing a mini-tour at the end of the year to mainly showcase the new material. The release of the single on 8 January 2001 was coupled with a signing session at London's now defunct Tower Records store and then a TV appearance on Top of The Pops before the single charted. The single charted at number five, becoming the band's first top 10 entry in the singles chart before appearing on Top of the Pops again. "Buck Rogers" then spent a second week in the top 10.

Grant wrote "Buck Rogers" with The Pixies as an influence, but "on a comic book level". He had originally written the track for another band with whom Echo Park producer Gil Norton was working, but decided not to give it away, for he felt Feeder themselves could have a hit with it. "Buck Rogers" still receives regular airplay on alternative radio stations in the United Kingdom. Kerrang!'s writers also approved of the track as one of their "666 Songs You Must Own", when it appeared at No. 5 in their rock songs list in November 2004.

After a sell-out tour of two legs ending at the London Astoria, the album Echo Park entered at number five in the UK album charts, shortly after "Seven Days in the Sun", the album's second single charted at No. 14. Shortly before the single's release, the band's rise up to the mainstream was recognised by the now defunct Scottish Television live music show Boxed Set, where a half-hour-long live-set with a studio audience was played. A third single, "Turn" reached No. 27 in July before festival season. "Just a Day", a b-side from "Seven Days in the Sun", later reached No. 12 in December. The response the album received on a critical level was mixed, with Dan Genroe of Q magazine claiming that the listener will still be "feeling hungry half an hour later", alongside suggesting that the album is "hard to love". Ben Myers of Kerrang! gave the album 4/5 (KKKK) which indicates "blinding", while citing that the band "hit their stride" on the album, alongside suggesting that the album is "fat free and stripped to the bone".

The album saw the band adopt a more 'commercial' sound, also incorporating synthesizers. Lyrically, Echo Park contains both a comedic approach, as with "Seven Days in the Sun", and dark emotions, such as those shown on "Turn", "Oxygen", and "Satellite News". It was during the campaign for Echo Park that the band played another slot on the main stage at the Reading and Leeds festival, including T in the Park. As of August 2003, the album has shipped 300,000 units in the UK going platinum, with counter sales standing at 293,000 as of February 2005. Grant said in a Melody Maker interview that if the album did not sell well enough the band would probably split up; he said at the time that "It's the same with any band. That's just the way the music business is. There is only a certain amount of money a label will put into a band. I'm just being realistic. We've been around for seven or eight years and I am not planning on giving up, but we're putting everything into this record and I'm just hoping that people like it". The album campaign helped the band in August 2001 win the "Best British Live Act" accolade at the Kerrang! awards, before ending the year supporting the Stereophonics, and then releasing the "Just a Day" single in December. In February 2015, "Buck Rogers" gained a silver certification for 200,000 physical sales, digital downloads and streaming points combined. Two years later, "Just a Day" also passed 200,000 sales.

In July 2001, Feeder's EP Swim was re-released with extra tracks, being a selection of b-sides from their earlier singles, alongside the videos for the Polythene singles "Crash" and "Cement". Overall unit sales for Swim stand at 40,000 as of February 2005.

Jon Lee's death and Comfort in Sound (2002–2003)
In January 2002, Jon Lee died at home in Miami. The band kept out of the public eye for most of the year. It was during this time that lead-singer Grant Nicholas wrote a series of songs relating to their emotions and reactions to Jon's death, which formed their fourth album Comfort in Sound. The band brought in former Skunk Anansie and Little Angels drummer Mark Richardson, whom Grant first met in 1994, when Feeder went on tour with Richardson's then-band, B.l.o.w.

The album focused mainly on themes such as loss, depression, grief and positivity, while dedicating "Quickfade" to Jon. The album was released in October of the same year to widespread critical acclaim in the British music press, with Kerrang! alongside the heavy rock magazine Metal Hammer giving the album their respective Album of the Week accolades. The band were invited to the Reading and Leeds festivals that year, headlining the second stage at Reading on the first day which took place on 23 August, before heading off to Leeds the next. Grant also mentioned that at the time their fourth album already had a series of backing tracks recorded, with a total of 15 when recording is completed with then 10 chosen for the final album, when the final track listing was revealed, this was increased to 12. The album is currently Feeder's best-seller with an estimated 503,706 units sold as of April 2012. The album charted at No. 98 in Japan and No. 28 in Ireland, beating the peak position of No. 57 that Echo Park managed during the previous year. In Japan, it would be the first time Feeder ever charted there. The album charted at number six in the UK.

Musically, Comfort in Sound is mellower than Feeder's previous albums, with the use of a string orchestra on "Forget About Tomorrow", while other tracks on the album also used an accordion, trumpet, and a piano played by their manager Matt Page, with "Godzilla" being one of two tracks on the album to use loud guitars. The album was their first release to be certified platinum, (with Echo Park going platinum later on). It also spawned their second top 10 single, with "Just the Way I'm Feeling" in January 2003. In December of the same year they took on their only arena tour, after the album's first nationwide tour was a sell out with 50,000 tickets sold, and visited 21 different towns and cities in the United Kingdom over 23 different dates. In reaction to this, the band were invited to the Glastonbury Festival being placed third on the last day, playing the "Pyramid Stage". Shortly after the release of the single, the band were invited to support Coldplay on their UK and Europeean tour, due to their frontman Chris Martin often saying how much he liked the Comfort in Sound album and their live shows. Their show at the Birmingham National Indoor Arena was reviewed by Kerrang!, which seen Steve Beebee give the band 4/5 (KKKK) for their performance.

The album's final single, the title track, was only available to buy as a limited edition of 3,000 CDs on their 2003 arena tour. Four singles were released commercially, with those being "Come Back Around" (No. 14), "Just the Way I'm Feeling" (No. 10), "Forget About Tomorrow" (No. 12), and "Find the Colour" (No. 24), which was released following their V2003 appearance and Kerrang! award win for "Best British Band", beating competition from Muse and the Stereophonics, which Grant dedicated to Jon saying it was the award he had always wanted the band to win. The band later went on to win an Internet Music Award for their "Just The Way I'm Feeling" video, while the album became their first to appear on the end of year top 75 album charts, appearing at No. 66. The album's commercial reception helped Echo experience their most successful financial year. Feeder then received their only nomination to date at The BRIT Awards, in which they appeared in the "Best British Rock" category at the 2004 event, before making their only appearance in the charts that year as part of Bob Geldof's Band Aid 20 charity ensemble. The single was the Christmas number one, and became the year's biggest-selling UK single. Alongside only making one singles chart appearance in 2004, Feeder also only made one live appearance during the year as part of the Carling Live 24 event, playing their show at the Hammersmith Apollo on 1 May.

Pushing the Senses (2004–2005)
Feeder returned to the studio to record their fifth album Pushing the Senses. The album was seen by Grant as more of an extension to Comfort in Sound, as it focused on the same lyrical themes and musical styles, and also said that it had more of an organic sound, with more upbeat tracks added into the mix. It contains a number of piano-driven tracks, "Frequency" being an example. "Frequency" was produced by Coldplay producer Ken Nelson, while for the rest of the album, Gil Norton was on production duties. Grant told Kerrang! in May 2004, "I've done some recording on my own in a little studio up by where I live in North London. I demo the album in its full form before the rest of the band play on it. Its difficult to know at this stage what it will turn out like, but so far its slightly more mature sounding". Grant later added "Each album is a journey and a reflection of the past, there is some stuff that touches on what has happened, but there are songs about love, songs of loss and songs about the future. I don't want to give too much away but there's one track called "Bitter Glass". Its quite dark but uplifting too. Its about pulling yourself out of a big hole".

The album was Feeder's highest-charting release, at number two on the UK album chart selling 42,951 units in its first week, while receiving a gold certification, and becoming a top 100 album in six other countries. Press response to the album was mixed. Kerrang! were brutal towards the band for all of their review, with Ben Meyers referring to them as a "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter", including comparisons to a "Pastel box". Grant later said in a documentary with Kerrang! Radio that he was "pissed off" with the review their magazine counterpart gave them, while citing "It was a very unfair review and reviewed by the wrong person".

The album helped them secure a headline slot at 2005's Download Festival. Shortly afterwards, Feeder supported U2 for a brief period on their Vertigo Tour, then played at the Live 8 concert in Edinburgh (the second charity event the band played that year after Tsunami Relief Cardiff).

The campaign in total spawned four UK top 40 singles, which included "Shatter", a reworked version of the "Tumble and Fall" b-side that became a double A-side with "Tender" (#11), released following a fan-petition to see "Shatter" released as a single in its own right. Other singles included "Tumble and Fall" (top five), "Feeling A Moment" (No. 13), and "Pushing the Senses" (No. 30). The album was after ten weeks on sales of 111,214 units, 22 percent ahead of Comfort in Sound at that stage. However, the album did not keep up this momentum while also not going platinum. The last reported sales were that of 160,183 in October of the same year, which fell below Echo's expectations. It is however the band's most successful record based on peak chart positions in each country of release, while also being their only album so far to spawn a charting single outside of the UK and Ireland when "Feeling a Moment" peaked at No. 32 in Australia. Feeder already at the time charted four top 50 singles in Ireland, with "Tumble and Fall" being their first and only top 40 to date reaching a peak position of No. 26. The album itself made the Irish top 20 artist album chart at No. 16, one week before its UK release.

Feeder would end the year seeing their then latest album appear at No. 39 on Q's end-of-year list, with "Feeling a Moment" voted the 98th best song of the year by its readers. However, on 3 December 2005, they were forced to postpone a winter tour, after Grant picked up bleeds on his vocal cords the night before during a gig in Brighton, causing the show to be abandoned and later rescheduled along with the rest of the outstanding dates. During the year, Feeder's domestic studio album sales passed the one million units mark.

The Singles and Silent Cry (2006–2008)
In late 2005, Feeder already returned to the studio, with Stephen Street working as the band's producer to record three new tracks to appear on their then forthcoming singles collection. "Lost and Found" (which Grant described as "an urban love song" ) became the first single to promote the collection, and reached No. 12 in the UK singles chart in May 2006, after completing their delayed winter tour, which ended at the LG Arena in Birmingham in front of 8,000 fans. The Singles, released in the same month as "Lost and Found", was the first Feeder album to have involvement from a major label, with EMI taking part in a one-off collaboration with Echo as the album's distributor. The album reached number two on the UK albums chart with first week sales of 50,003 entering at number three, and was certified platinum in under three months, with a total of 497,700 units sold as of April 2012, including a gold certification in Ireland after charting at No. 13. The album also made the top ten in Europe with a debut top 40 peak in Japan at No. 37, while "Save Us" was its second and final single in the UK, charting at No. 34 in late July. A version of the album included a DVD of all their videos filmed up to that point, along with extensive sleevenotes by Ben Johncock. The album became only their second to appear on the end of year top 75 this time at No. 48, while becoming their first album to spend more than one week on the top 10. Sales of The Singles, alongside a series of changes at Echo making them into an "Incubator label", enabled the company to report a "modest profit" for 2006. Feeder returned to the Reading and Leeds festivals after a four-year break, having a late slot on the main stage, before ending the year with a small tour of London, playing The Roundhouse, and The Coronet. These were in aid of War Child who the band are patrons of, having earlier in the year visited The Congo as part of their work for the charity. Although their appearances at The Roundhouse would be their first two, their appearance at The Coronet would be their first and last as it was later demolished in 2021.

In 2006 Feeder announced in an interview with XFM that their next album would be reminiscent of their earlier material. They spent most of 2007 recording, with the resulting album Silent Cry being released on 16 June 2008. On balance, the album received moderate reviews. While some like The Guardian were negative towards the album,  others like Rock Louder were more positive. On its release week the album charted at number eight with sales of 16,029. In its second week the album then fell to number 30, with a third week drop to number 60 before leaving the top 75 albums listing. In Japan it peaked at No. 53, which is currently higher than any of their studio albums, but lower than the peak of The Singles. Before the release of the album, "We Are the People" charted at No. 25 in the singles chart, making it their lowest chart position for a lead single since 1999's "Day in Day Out". "Miss You" from the album was given away by the band's official website as a free download in April, and gained over 8,000 downloads on its first day of release. As of December 2008, sales of Silent Cry stand at less than 50,000 units, less than was what hoped for by their label. Shortly after the album was released, the band recorded a cover of Public Image Ltd's 1978 self-titled single "Public Image", for a compilation album to celebrate Independents Day which celebrated independently released music. The second single from Silent Cry was Feeder's first download-only single, consisting of "Tracing Lines" and the album's title track which failed to make the charts.

In May 2008, the band played an eight-date tour to promote Silent Cry. Tickets sold out in six hours. These dates was followed by a one-off gig on 12 June at the Proud Galleries in Camden, which sold out in six minutes. The band then went on to play at the iTunes festival in July, which saw a live six-track EP release of their performance, before playing the 2008 Reading and Leeds festivals in August, on the main stage. In July the band played at T in the Park, with an appearance at the Isle of Wight Festival the month previous. In 2008, the band also introduced live keyboard player Dean Deavall, of the band Casino. During the same year, on 25 October at 06:00 GMT after playing the Glasgow Barrowlands as part of their 29-date UK tour, the band's crew bus caught fire on the M62 motorway whilst travelling between Glasgow and Lincoln, destroying it and the crew's personal items. It was also announced by Chrysalis later on in the year, that Echo have been restructured into a copyright exploitation company, in which its main duty is maintaining the copyright on existing releases while no longer releasing any new records or signing any more artists. As a result, Feeder were until 2010 no longer on a record contract in their own country, while still being signed to their Japanese label Victor and Play it Again Sam (PIAS), their European label. Their 2008 UK tour, seen their first ever gig in Loughbrough, and their last show at the London Astoria on 18 November 2008. The venue was later torn down in early 2009 and was also their last show as an Echo Label artist.

After ending their tour at the Portsmouth Pyramids Centre, a six track EP titled Seven Sleepers was released in Japan, the same time they toured there in March. It included a collection of B-sides from the Silent Cry album, plus two new songs.

Mark Richardson's and Dean Tidey's departures and Renegades (2009–10)
After starting 2009 with two warm-up shows for their tour of Japan in Scarborough and Crewe (which was a rescheduled gig from the previous tour and had appeared on early promotional posters), the band later on in May announced that Feeder had "ended their partnership" with drummer Mark Richardson, who returned to his original band Skunk Anansie. Mark was replaced by session drummer Karl Brazil who had just come off tour with James Blunt, and had also played drums for British band Ben's Brother. Karl's first live appearances with the band, after a series of university events were at the UK leg of the Sonisphere Festival, stating that this would be their only UK festival appearance of 2009, as they would be working on their seventh studio album. It was then later announced that they would be appearing at the Hevy Music Festival in Folkestone. Here they previewed a new track titled "Sentimental", with the announcement that they had been in a recording studio in South Wales.

At first, Tim Trotter then of Mexicolas was filling in on drum duties in the studio also as a session drummer, before Karl stepped in. With Karl playing drums for Robbie Williams, Natalie Imbruglia and Ben's Brother, Tim once again took over drum duties in the studio. On 2 December, the band's official webpage was changed to display the word "RENEGADES" and the names of each of the band members by their surname, with "BRAZIL" mentioned amongst these. On 17 December a sample of a new song "Sentimental" was added to their website, which was later replaced with a 20-second clip of another song called "Renegades". Later on that month the website announced a six date tour and the release of a tour-only EP which was released on "Big Teeth Music", also their own record label. After the tour was completed, another six date tour was shortly announced with the band this time playing bigger venues. Another EP was released to coincide with the tour, which included a further four new songs with one of these being titled "Home"; one of the new songs the band performed on their first tour under this alias. The side-project was used as a method to promote the seventh Feeder studio album titled Renegades at live shows where they would mainly play the new songs, thus avoiding having to play any of their hits if they played as Feeder. The side-project would cease in 2010 after playing their final gig as Renegades at that year's Sonisphere Festival.

In an April 2010 interview with South Yorkshire newspaper The Star, Grant expressed his disappointment with the side-project band's sudden increase in success and awareness, in which he claimed that he wanted the band to continue playing in clubs with a slower ascendency to the bigger venues. The tour promoter however suggested that Renegades should play slightly bigger venues for the second tour than of those seen on their debut. Looking back on this version of the band, Grant Nicholas explained in an interview with Culture Deluxe, that the project was not a big marketing plan, but announced it without saying exactly what was happening. Some people thought it was a name change, Grant recording a solo album, while others got the idea from the start. He described problems with promoters printing "Feeder" on the tickets, leading to a misunderstanding that a more mainstream set was expected.

After completing their second and final tour as Renegades, the band then announced their new single "Call Out" under the name of Feeder before shortly revealing the name of their seventh album as Renegades. All of the new songs performed live as Renegades were listed on the album; the free download track "Fallen" was a B-side on "Call Out" and was released as a download and vinyl single, the album being released on 5 July. Renegades peaked at No. 16 on the UK album chart, giving them their seventh top 20 album with sales of 8,729, before being followed-up by the single release of the title track, also only on vinyl and download. In Japan, the album charted at No. 93, making it their least successful since Comfort in Sound. Dean Deavall then departed from Casino to concentrate more on his time with Feeder, including his own band The High Hurts, while live band guitarist Dean Tidey in 2009 departed the band with the reasons disclosed. His final show with the band would later turn out to be at the Sonisphere Festival on the 5 August 2009. The album received mostly favourable reviews,  although some critics as Will Dean of BBC Online did not praise the album giving it a mixed response

After a tour of Japan which saw Luna Sea guitarist Inoran join them on stage at the Daikanyama Unit for a performance of "Breed" (originally recorded by Nirvana), Feeder returned to the UK for a sell-out tour in late October which started at the Leeds Metropolitan University, before ending at Southampton University. This was followed by a small tour of Europe, South Africa and Australia, before a brief return to the UK ended their year. "Down to the River / This Town" also became the final single from the album, released only as a download and vinyl on 6 December.

Side By Side and Generation Freakshow (2011–2012)
In 2010, a number of tracks were left off the Renegades album before then being considered for inclusion for the follow-up.

In March 2011, Feeder released "Side by Side", a download-only single in aid of the victims of the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami. "Side by Side" charted at No. 91, Across 2011, Feeder played a number of shows with Damon Wilson on drums. On 30 January, "Borders" was released on CD, on 7" vinyl and on cassette – the first time Feeder released a cassette single since 2001's "Just a Day". "Borders" charted at No. 52, giving the band their 25th top 75 single and their first official chart visit since 2008's "We Are the People".

Generation Freakshow was released on 23 April 2012. The critical response was mixed. BBC Music praised the album, while Drowned in Sound, despite negative reviews in the past, credited Feeder for creating another strong addition to their back catalogue. The album, which was released to coincide with a week-long tour, improved upon the response of Renegades by charting at No. 13, which increased the band's UK album charts span to fifteen years, while selling 7,338 units in the same week. In Japan, Generation Freakshow improved upon the chart position of Renegades, when it entered at No. 57 and became their most successful studio album in almost four years. Retrospectively, this album alongside Renegades, has been seen as a commercial failure.

The week after the album's release, "Children of the Sun" was released as the album's second single. It did not chart. The album's title track was due to be a single, but was later pulled despite promotional CDs already being pressed and sent to radio. "Idaho" became the third single from the album, released on 27 August. Like "Children of the Sun", it also failed to chart.

The band later announced a tour to complete their year, which would end at the Brixton Academy. It was at this Brixton show on the 23rd November 2012, Nicholas repeated on stage a statement he made months prior to the tour, being that the band were going to take a break and decide on what to do next. This caused a joint misinterpretation, suggesting either that the band were going to later split up, or were going to re-evaluate their musical direction. The commercial failure of the album was a contributing factor to the decision to take a break, before releasing their comeback album in 2016. In the meantime Feeder would in 2013 play at Reading University as a private event, before Nicholas embarked on a two year solo career. It was before Nicholas began his solo career that he announced "Feeder's heart still beats strong".

All Bright Electric and Tallulah (2016–2021)
On 15 June the band released "Universe of Life", the lead single for All Bright Electric, which was released on 7 October 2016. This was followed on 26 August by the single "Eskimo", along with its music video. Both singles were released free for people who pre-ordered the album. After the band completed their UK tour between September and October 2016, All Bright Electric saw Feeder return to the top 10 of the album chart after an eight-year absence.

In July 2017, the band announced the compilation The Best of Feeder, featuring all the previous singles from the band's career, as well a mini-album of new material within called Arrow. Its lead single, "Figure You Out", was released on 20 July 2017. The compilation later charted at No. 10 on the albums chart, giving Feeder their second album to chart in the upper tier in less than a calendar year.

On 9 August 2019, Feeder released their tenth studio album, Tallulah, before releasing a non-album single, "Criminal" on 1 November of that same year. Although this single failed to chart, the album became the band's most successful studio album in 14 years, due to charting at No.4 on the UK album chart on its release week. Reviews were limited, but four out of the five it received from major sources were positive.

Torpedo (2022–2023)
After the success of Tallulah Nicholas and Hirose immediately began work on a follow up album. The two wrote and recorded an album's worth of material across late 2019 and early 2020, with the album being largely complete outside of final audio mixing. However, progress halted with the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in early 2020. Frustrated, Nicholas and Hirose turned to writing further material instead. Early sessions written during the COVID lockdown were slow, with Nicholas suffering with a case of writer's block. Eventually, his pent up frustration with both the state of the world, and his writer's block, lead to an outpouring of content, enough for two album's worth of material. The material was separated into two batches; the material written second - during the COVID lockdown - was put together to make up the Torpedo album, while the earlier, pre-COVID material, was put together for a later 2023 release on a yet-to-be-titled twelfth album. Torpedo, has subsequently been released as of 18 March 2022. The album would later chart at No.5 on the album charts, giving the band for the first time in their career consecutive Top 5 albums, and their second No.1 in a row on the Official Record Store Chart.

Black/Red (2023-present)
In October 2023, the band announced a new album, and released two singles on the same day, "Playing With Fire" and "Elf". Black/Red was released on 5 April 2024. It the band's first double album, completing a trilogy begun with Torpedo. Nicholas explained of the album: "I really wanted the album to be split in two parts for the listener, CD1 and CD2, black and red rather than be one long player, almost like a musical production with an interval."

Sales and legacy
Between 1997 and 2012, Feeder accumulated 25 top 75 singles when guest singles are excluded. They have headlined many of the UK's major venues, such as Wembley Arena, Birmingham National Indoor Arena, Birmingham LG Arena, Bournemouth International Centre and the Cardiff International Arena.

Feeder's overall album sales stand at 1,957,016 in the United Kingdom, as of 6 October 2017. Their second-highest selling release is 2002's Comfort in Sound, shifting over 506,000 units in the UK. As of October 2017, The Singles has sold 524,000 copies. In the UK, Feeder has accumulated seven gold and platinum records. Gold records in Ireland for The Singles, Comfort in Sound and Echo Park brings their worldwide total to ten. In 2020, "Buck Rogers" received a Gold award for 400,000 UK consumption sales, 19 years after its release. 2001's "Just a Day" was certified Silver in 2017 for 200,000 consumption sales. That same year also seen 1997's Polythene, receive a Gold award from the BPI for sales of 100,000; almost 20 years to its release date.

Despite having dropped out of mainstream radio play since 2008, Silent Cry reached No. 8 on the UK albums chart in its first week of release, with 16,000 units sold. It has sold less than 50,000 units to date according to Chrysalis, the owners of the now defunct Echo Label. The Silent Cry tour was Feeder's longest, playing 29 dates, with many selling out. Nevertheless, Silent Cry remains Feeder's first album not to achieve at least gold status.

2010's Renegades was less successful. It entered the UK chart at No. 16 – Feeder's first album since 1997's Polythene not to chart within the Top 10 – and dropped out after 2 weeks. However, the charting of Renegades, marked the third decade in which a Feeder album had been released and charted at least in the Top 20. This marked their 6th studio album to appear in the Top 20 and the band's 9th album to appear on the chart regardless of position over the course of their career. The album also debuted at No. 1 on the Official UK Rock Albums chart. Still, Renegades has yet to accumulate sales that approach or eclipse any of their other studio albums before this. 2012 follow-up Generation Freakshow, charted higher at No. 13 although on lower debut week sales, before 2016 saw the band return to the top 10 with All Bright Electric, then less than 12 months later appeared in the top 10 again, with The Best of Feeder in 2017. 2019's Tallulah, became the band's first top 5 studio album since 2005's Pushing the Senses.

Feeder are also one of Wales' most popular rock bands. In October 2003, the bass guitar that Taka Hirose played in the video for "Seven Days in the Sun" was added to the Hard Rock Cafe in Cardiff.

Feeder have also gained a cult following in Japan. Their most recent seven studio albums have all charted in the top 200. Their most successful of these is 2008's Silent Cry charting at No. 53, although their most successful and only top 40 entry to date is their 2006 singles compilation, meaning the band have charted eight albums regardless of format.

In April 2012, Total Guitar praised the band, writing that "all the way from their first release, the Two Colours EP in 1995, through tragedy and triumph, he's [Grant] gone the distance with Feeder, while other British alternative rock bands of the 90s crashed or faded".

They were inducted into Kerrang's Hall of Fame in August 2019. Their induction came two months after Grant presented Skunk Anansie with their Hall of Fame award at the Kerrang Awards ceremony. This event marked the first time in ten years that Grant Nicholas had shared the same stage with former drummer Mark Richardson.

Members
Current members
 * Grant Nicholas – lead vocals, lead guitar, piano (1994–present)
 * Taka Hirose – bass guitar, backing vocals (1995–present)

Current session musicians
 * Karl Brazil – drums, percussion (2009–present)
 * Geoff Holroyde – drums, percussion (2019–present)

Current touring musicians
 * Tommy Gleeson – rhythm guitar, backing vocals (2016–present)
 * Geoff Holroyde – drums, percussion (2016–present)

Former members
 * Jon Lee – drums, percussion (1994–2002; died 2002)
 * Mark Richardson – drums, percussion (2002–2009)

Former touring musicians
 * Dean Tidey – rhythm guitar (1999–2000, 2002–2009)
 * Matt Sime – keyboards (2000–2002)
 * Tim Trotter – drums, percussion (2009–2011)
 * Damon Wilson – drums, percussion (2011–2012)
 * Nathan Connolly – rhythm guitar (2016)
 * Dean Deavall – keyboards, backing vocals (2008–2023)

Timeline

Discography
Studio albums
 * Polythene (1997)
 * Yesterday Went Too Soon (1999)
 * Echo Park (2001)
 * Comfort in Sound (2002)
 * Pushing the Senses (2005)
 * Silent Cry (2008)
 * Renegades (2010)
 * Generation Freakshow (2012)
 * All Bright Electric (2016)
 * Tallulah (2019)
 * Torpedo (2022)
 * Black/Red (2024)

Awards and Honours
Kerrang awards

Official Charts Company awards

Certified sales awards

title: Feeder (band)


text:
User talk:Euric

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I find useful

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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~.

Cheers, Sam [Spade] 04:29, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Euric - welcome to Wikipedia. About your recent edits to Floppy disk: Metric specifications are no 1 worldwide now, agreed. But that's not the point here. It's a fact that these floppies have been called 5¼- and 3½-inch and that has to be seen in a historical perspective. The fact that the 3½-disk is actually 90 mm in size has also been clearly stated in the article. (It might have been called a "90 disk" or something similar, if it was invented 10 years from now :) And even when using the metric system, you'll sometimes run into "misnomers"; if you bought a 2½-litre car it is highly likely that it sports an engine with only 2,4895 litres of displacement. --Palapala 07:36, 2004 May 21 (UTC)

Hello, Euric. You may not know that Wikipedia has its own Manual of Style, making the style consistent across the hundreds of thousands of pages. Please note that Wikipedia does not use SI style for long strings of digits. See Manual of Style (dates and numbers) for the standard style. So, editing pages for SI style makes them less consistent with the rest of the encyclopedia. -- hike395 17:15, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Euric --- there isn't a single czar of style for Wikipedia, these decisions are reached by consensus. You can certainly try and re-open to discussion by starting a comment thread at Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Notice that Wikipedians put new discussion at the bottom of the Talk page, rather than the top. Also, you probably want to mark your discussion off from the rest by starting with == SI style ==, or something similar, to start a new section.

 * I wouldn't hold out much hope for converting over, however. You do realize that Wikipedia has >280K articles in English? Converting all of them over would be an incredible amount of work. But, feel free to start the discussion, if you wish. -- hike395 19:44, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Euric