text:
Talk:Karelians

Language
The Karelian language is very closely related to the Finnish language, and particularly by Finnish linguists seen as a dialect of Finnish. The dialect of Karelians who are citizens of Finland is however uncontroversially considered a dialect of Finnish, since that's the standard language taught in schools. Finnish Karelians speaks however Finnish. ??????? What somebody meant here? 62.143.8.246 16:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know. There has still not made clear difference between Karelians and Finnish Karelians. Karelians are Karelians living mainly in Republic of Karelia. Finnish Karelians are however Finnish people like Tavastians (hämäläiset) are, or Savolax (savolaiset), or Proper Finns (varsinaissuomalaiset), or Bothnians (pohjalaiset), or uusimaalaiset. For example: President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, is Finn, karjalainen not Karelian.

 * In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet). Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect. Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish.

Kahkonen 19:18 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * So what to do? We know, that there is two types of Karelians: Karelians who live in Finland and consider themselves Finns and Karelians who live in Republic of Karelia and consider themselves Karelians.

See link (about Finns called Karelians):
 * http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/ (click link In English)

President Martti Ahtisaari's speech:
 * http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tpk/puheet-1999/P990619.karen.html

Kahkonen 08:43 10 May 2004 (UTC)

We explain more, and state less. If you by "different types" mean that Savo people were transferred to Ladoga-Karelia, then write that with years and figures if you know. If you mean that people's mentality was influenced by the difference between being a serf or a taxed freeholder, then write that - or, maybe even better: propose wordings here if you fear that you might be misunderstood.

Although I do of course not endorse everything at the karjalan liitto site, I would like to remind you of the following prominently located statement:
 * Throughout recorded history, Karelia had been under the rule of either Sweden (Finland) or Russia (Novgorod), but its inhabitants were almost exclusively Finno-Ugrians. After Finland gained independence in 1917, Karelia was divided between the two states, Finland and Soviet Union.

--Johan Magnus 08:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I mean this, what I wrote to Tuomas in my Talk page: Do You think that other Finns and evacuated Karelians are 'different peoples'? I, and official Finland and other world, do not think. So you want to say that Karelians living in East Karelia are Finns? Or that Finns are Karelians? I think _that_ is very POV. Kahkonen 09:20 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Think of the difference between Finnic and Finns. A Karelian can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn. While all Karelians are Finnic, only the western Karelians are Finns. Remember that we write for an intended public that may know very little or nothing. Do not assume that the reader know anything in advance, but keep in mind that some readers might, so it's important not to "disturb" such readers with statements that conflict with their understanding (unless their understanding is patently false AND unusual), which would give our text a low credibility. I hope we agree that things common for Karelians are to be mentioned first; Things different for different Karelians are to be mentioned thereafter? If you agree with official Finland, then I think this is most of all a matter of linguistics, since I don't believe to be in conflict with official Finland either. --Johan Magnus 08:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I think this is same among 'Swedish-speaking Finns' Swedes or Finns. Following this logic we can talk about Swedes who live in Sweden and in Western Finland, and only they are Finns. So: "A Swede can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn."

But, Finns and 'western' Karelians are not distinc ethnical group and nor are 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and Finns. Go look Finland's official pages and post here, if you find distinc ethnical groups of Western Karelians and Finns. There are about 300 000 such Finns and at least 1 000 000 who have Karelian parents. So post here, if you find such numbers.

About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish. Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, borders of ethnicity and nations are to a large degree arbitrary. Hence one must keep in mind in who's interest different definitions are. In accordance with many Russian sources, you can argue that those Karelians that came under Swedish and later Finnish rule were un-Kareliïzed if not evacuated to Tver. But this is not in accordance with the usage in either Finland or the English speaking world. In English, the notion of the Fennomans and AKS has had some success, which also reflects in the Many Karelias-article at Virtual Finland.

With virtually all ethnicities you can find some kind of influence back and forth with neighbouring groups. Hence members of a certain ethnicity that become isolated from eachother can often be considered to evolve into separate ethnicities. But again, it's not easy to say when such a process is concluded.

Are the Flemish ethnically different from the Dutch? Are Norwegians ethnically different from Swedes? Are Scanians? Are Ålanders? Are Finland-Swedes? You may have convictions making you answer these question with yes or no, but that's not my point. My point is that both answers are reasonable and in most cases probable. Therefore it's good to be careful in one's wordings. Therefore I reverted your recent change here. Kind regards! /Tuomas 15:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * So why not to add these tips into page when they are facts? Saying like "In Finland, West Karelians are considered and consider themselves Finns".  This is a fact and "we only list facts" - it's NPOV, you know?

 * And thank you, you are saying I'm not a Finn ethnically :-) Go and say to Martti Ahtisaari he is not ethnically Finn :-) Or Kimi Räikkönen.
 * Kahkonen 19:23, 10 May 2004 (added some more 07:40 11 May 2004) (UTC)
 * What did I say? You should maybe read one time more?
 * By the way: You might be interested in the new page on Finns. /Tuomas 10:31, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Again, I want to emphasize that: "In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet)."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

"Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

But: "Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish."

See? If not see page: (sorry, in Finnish) http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/karjalanmurre.html

And compare (this is not same text, but you can see differences): Karelian language: "Enne vahnas Karjalas oli vähä peldomuadu, sendäh mešäs ajettih kaskie. Kaski ajettih keviäl, konzu jo puuloih roih täüzi lehti. Puut kuattih, karzittih. Parembat parret mendih dieloih, karumbat päittih hallokse. Tulien vuon se kaski poltettih, sit künnettih."

http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/kaakkoismurteet.html Southeastern dialect: "Myö annettii sil viel yks pien pala ja lähettii juoksemaa nii kovast ku jaksettii. Mut eihä se karhu kauva sitä yhtä pallaa syönt. Se läks juoksemaa mei peräst ja sai meijät kii iha vähä matka pääs. Mei pit taas antaa sil vehnästä eikä myö ennää hirvitty lähtee juoksemaakaa ku meitä alko jo vähä hirvittää se karhu kujjeet."

http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/opinnot/opintojaksot/8kieletkirjallisuus/aidinkieli/murteet/kaakkmur.html

In English: http://www.nordiska.uu.se/ICLaVE2/ICLaVE_pdf/Markkola.pdf

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Finl.html: FINNISH [FIN] 4,700,000 in Finland, 93.5% of population (1993); 300,000 in Sweden (1987); 12,000 in Norway (1993); 5,153 in Estonia (1993); 214,168 in USA (1970 census); 36,725 in Canada (1971 census); 6,000,000 in all countries (1995 WA). Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, Finno-Cheremisic, Finno-Mordvinic, Finno-Lappic, Balto-Finnic. Dialects: SOUTHWESTERN FINNISH, HÄME (TAVAST), SOUTH POHJANMAA, CENTRAL AND NORTH POHJANMAA, PERÄPOHJA, SAVO (SAVOLAX), SOUTHEASTERN FINNISH (FINNISH KARJALA, FINNISH KARELIAN). Southeastern dialects called 'Karelian' in colloquial Finnish are distinct from true Karelian (T. Salminen). Finnish is closely related to Karelian and Olonetsian. About 300,000 are bilingual in Swedish. National language. Typology: SVO. Christian. Braille Bible. Bible 1642-1991. NT 1548-1976. Bible portions 1891-1986.

This is mentioned somehow even in Red Book: " Ingrians is not a separate language but consists of eastern Finnish dialects (the vernaculars of the Savo and southeastern dialects of Ingermanland"

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/vir98palander.html

And simply google "southeastern dialects Finnish".

And good collection of links in page http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_nordic.html#finland Kahkonen 20:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Hmm, I just added info about the south western dialects to the article, take a look and comment on that. I even added some footnotes to sites that unfortunately are in Finnish. Kahkonen, note that this article is about the language of the Karelians, not the Karelian language. -- Jniemenmaa 19:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, I tried to add this information, but they always deleted it. You did it better, thank you. But, why there is still that stupid clause "Karelians living in Finland learn Finnish standard language in school." Of course they do! So do I and so do all Finns. /Kahkonen 7:40, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Different groups of Karelians
The statement that "Russian Karelians" and "Finnish Karelians" are not of the same ethnic group is completely incorrect and insubstantial. Historical evidence suggests that after being divided in 1323, Karelians have kept their identity and ties until first half of 20th century on both sides of the border. Ethnographic studies performed by Finnish, Russian and European 19th century ethnographers (such as Lönnröt, Sjögren, Castren, Keoppen and others) indicate that there were no such things as "Finnish Karelians" or "Russian Karelians" from the ethnic point of view as late as the end of 19th century. What is often mistaken, by modern Finnish ethnographers, for ethnic identity is is a mere citizenship of ethnic Karelians on both sides of the border, where some are of Finnish citizenship while others are of Russian citizenship. There is one more historical aspect that has to be mentioned here which caused this artificial "ethnic" division - Karelian Independence movement in White and Olonets Karelia in 1918-1922 and the Finland-Soviet Wars that took place in the first half of the 20th century. The rhetoric that was used by some of the notable Finnish politicians (K.G.E. Mannerheim in particular) on the subject of Karelia and Karelians in the first half of the 20th century were completely abandoned and abolished in Finland after the Peace Treaty of Paris, 1947. Any mention of ethnic ties between the population of Finland and Karelians, that still lived in the Soviet Union was prohibited. The theory that there are "Finnish Karelians" and "Russian Karelians", which are ethnically different was created, however insubstantial it was. Most of the ethnic Karelians were assimilated into Finns, merely for political reasons. Finnish political leaders simply did not want to mess with the Soviet Union over the subject of Karelia any more. Hence all this nonsense about different ethnic groups of Karelians. Karjala88 (talk) 08:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I suppose a different language (Karelian dialect of Finnish vs. Karelian) and religion (Lutheranism vs. Russian Orthodoxy) are inconsequential as far as ethnicities are conserned in your book? Sure, all Karelians have the same origin, but a whole lot of water has passed under the keel since those ancient times. Also, I must protest agaist the "Flag of Karelians" in the article. This flag was the flag, designed by the national romantic artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela, for the so-called Uhtua republic, more generally for East Karelia. It was used during the Finnish occupation of East Karelia by the occupants and that's about it. 84.251.161.164 (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Let us make one point perfectly clear: The "Russian Karelians and "Finnish Karelians" are not the same ethnic group. The Russian Karelians spoke their own Karelian language (some of them still do) which was closely related to the eastern dialects of Finnish, but is neverthless a distinct language (nowadays most of the Russian Karelians speak Russian). Russian Karelians have not traditionally considered themselves to be Finns, but have cultivated their own identity instead. Attempts to obliterate the difference between two different kinds of Karelians are based either on misunderstanding and limited knowledge of Finnish history, or on some national-chauvinistic agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.30.179.130 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 9 March 2006
 * Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Wikipedia is in an OK shape. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

updated the article according to and. More work is needed of course but I hope this puts things back on track--Termer (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)" Not true. About 10% of Finnish nationals evacuated from Karelia were Karelian speaking ethnic Karelians such as my family. You don't seem to be aware of our existence AkuraIchiban (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Number of the Karelians in Finland
I would like to state couple things here about Karelians in Finland. Several studies done by different ethnographers in the 19th century indicate that majority of the population that inhabited Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia, Southern and Northern Karelia of the Grand Duchy of Finland and White Karelia, Olonets Karelia in the Russian Empire were of Karelian ethnicity at that time. In different sources the ethnic subgroups were called Finns and Karelians, sometimes Finns and Finno-Karelians but there was always a distinctive ethnic separation of Finns and Karelians in those studies. Having said all that I would also like to point out that all ethnic Karelians that inhabited the provinces that belonged to the Duchy of Finland also viewed themselves as part of the Finnish nation, which did not change when Finland gained its independence in 1918. The events that took place in the Russian Karelia in 1918-1922 indicate that the majority of the Russian Karelians, though being Orthodox, desired to belong to Finland and to be part of the Finnish nation too. However due to the Antanta intervention in the White Karelia and the Soviet intervention in the Olonets Karelia it never happened. The evidence suggests that an ethnic Karelian settling in Finland gets fully assimilated into the Finnish nation within 1 generation as the difference between the nations is so small. Karjala88 (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Some misinformed person restored a nonsensical piece of disinformation into the article. The numbers on Finnish people evacuated from the ceded territories in 1939 and 1944 simply is not the same as the number of Karelians in Finland, as Finnish Karelia was not ceded completely. Referenced information should not be restored if it is completely irrelevant. It is hardly possible to estimate the number of Finnish Karelians very exactly, as it is a diffuse sub-ethnic identity. The present-day Karelian districts in Finland have 300 000 inhabitants, but not all of them might designate themselves as Karelians - and people identifying themselves as Karelians live in all parts in Finland.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Please note that in case you continue editing the article according to your opinions that contradicts what the given sources say, the article is going to be listed for protection. Feel free to introduce any facts to the article according to WP:RS, any claim or opinion that is not sourced is going to be reverted and removed. Any removal or altering the sourced text is going to take the article closer to WP:RPP. thanks!--Termer (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Given sources I removed are completely mispresented, irrelevant and misleading so they cannot have any value whatsoever. That should be evident to anyone who knows anything about this matter! It is simply absurd to suggest that the number of still living evacuated persons from the ceded territories is the same as the number of Finnish Karelians. Does your source even claim that? I do not believe it does, so you are probably using the source in a way comparable to original research. The East Karelian flag is not a symbol of Finnish Karelians. And so on. You are abusing the Wikipedia rules to present misleading information based on mispresented sources.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Edit I checked it out: Benjamin's book does not suggest in any way that the II World War evacuees were the only Finnish Karelians. So you have misused the source, perhaps in an oversight. Besides the introductory part you restored in the article is of very poor quality, very confusing and in many respects conflicting with the rest of the article. To example, the separation between the Finnish and East Karelians is mentioned in the language part of the article; you cannot remove the information from the introductory part only.
 * Please see WP:RSUE, I might have to revert your edits because of it. The source you claim is completely mispresented, is available for online reading if you follow the link and everybody can verify the facts. In case you continue without presenting any sources and, adding facts like 300 000 inhabitants in present-day Finnish Karelia East Karelian flag (Note: Not a symbol of the Finnish Karelians etc. the claims that are in conflict with the given book, One Europe, Many Nations the article is going to be listed at WP:SEMI so that it would be possible to clean it up finally. thanks! --Termer (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Your comments are simply so misinformed that I do not know what to do about them. Unlike you suggest, my claims are in no way in conflict with the source book you present, as the source does not claim that the 140,000 war evacuees are the only Finnish Karelians or that the East Karelian flag is a symbol of the Finnish Karelians too. In other words you have misrepresented the source, and anyone can check this. It is obvious that you know next to nothing about the Karelians and presumably care even less, so why do you bother?--130.234.68.225 (talk) 10:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that in case you choose to comment on contributors instead of the content also in the future, you comments can be simply removed from this talk page pr WP:NPA. I'm clad that you are willing to claim about your competence regarding the subject. Please do not hesitate to show it in practice by editing the article according to secondary published sources and cleaning it up by providing inline citations etc. and following the WP:STYLE. Leaving the article in current state is unacceptable and since you haven't provided any sources to your opinions and claims above regarding the flag etc, these edits of yours can be reverted to back to according to One Europe, Many Nations any time. where it clearly names the flag as the Karelian flag without any reference to "East Karelians". regarding c 140,000 Karelians living in Finland, the note always said that they were Finnish records of people born in Karelia, the areas ceded to the USSR after WWII, there is no need to duplicate that information in the infobox etc.

 * I'm willing to give you some time in order for you to get a chance to clean up the article. Just that in case you're going to proceed editing the article according to your opinions and without referring to any published sources printed in English, I would have to revert this article back to the way James Minahan has represented the facts in his book. So please, do not hesitate to put your claimed competence in practice.--Termer (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * James Minahan is very obviously discussing only the Orthodox East Karelians, and does not suggest in any way that the flag is connected to Lutheran Finnish Karelians. The flag should, can and will be removed from the infobox, as no source is presented for the uncorrect claim that it is a symbol of both groups of Karelians.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) This site tells of the history of the East Karelian flag. The infobox of the article is generally so confused that it is a disgrace. The introductory part is relatively good after my edits, referring to a website maintained by an institution under the Finnish Ministry of Education. Edit After reading English websites, it seems that in English the ethnonym Karelians refer mainly to the (Orthodox) East Karelians, and does not generally include the concept of (Lutheran) Finnish Karelians. It would be advisable to reduce this article to discuss only the East Karelians and take the information of the Finnish Karelians to separate articles discussing the Karelian provinces of Finland. (Finnish Karelians are not an ethnic group, but rather a regional group included in the Finnish ethnicity).--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, in case you think it's better now, why did you tag your own edits with the neutrality disputed tag? regarding Minahan, he clearly describes the flag as Karelian without any reference to Orthodox or Lutherianism. In case you say that the Finnish Karelians think of themselves as a sub-group of Finnish people, how would be that relevant to the article here? Everything about Finnish sub-groups should go into the article about Finnish people.--Termer (talk) 14:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutrality tag was a protest against some of your edits, such as the presentation of the East Karelian flag as a symbol of all Karelians. Read the Minahan's text carefully, and you will see that he is very obviously discussing only the non-Finnish Karelians belonging to the distinct Karelian ethnicity - in other words, the Orthodox East Karelians. (Minahan mentions that some Karelians live in Finland too. It is easy to see what he is referring to: Before 1939 and 1944, there were 55 000 Karelian-speaking Orthodox Karelians in Finland too, but after the evacuation they have been linguistically assimilated in the Finnish population). Information of the identity of the Finnish Karelians is extremely essential, necessary and relevant here as long as both of the distinct groups of Karelians are discussed in a same article (which is perhaps unwise). It is very significant that the Finnish Karelians do not share the same ethnic or national identity with East Karelians, despite of the often expressed feeling of being closely related with them. I cannot understand why you want to obscure this issue.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 15:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So it has become be obvious that this article should be mostly about the east Karelians and the Finnish Karelians should be a part of Finnish people as the subgroup. The article can briefly mention the historic relationship but should have a note on top of the article saying that . The article Finnish people should have a clear section Finnish Karelians that should have a note, for inf about Eastern Karelians see Karelians. Do you want to take care of it so that the mess could be cleaned up?--Termer (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or, we can make Karelians into a disamb page that says Karelians may refer to Finnish Karelians see Finnish people and Eastern Karelians, see Eastern Karelians or whatever is the most common name for Orthodox Karelians used in English.--Termer (talk) 15:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And this can happened of course as long as there is a source printed in English that represents the facts this way. Since WP is not dealing with people's personal identities, either someone identifies him/herself as a sub-Finn Karelian, Karelian in general or an Eastern-Karelian should not be an issue on WP.--Termer (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

About 10% or so of the 400 000 or so evacuated were ethnic Karelians. So not all Finnish Karelians are part of the same "tribe". They share history with each other but you can't deny the effects of centuries of assimilation. I am an ethnic Karelian and I support the "two Karelians" concept. AkuraIchiban (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Errors
I do not bother to read trough the whole article and the whole discussion just now but the following passage is clearly incorrect and erraneous:

"in Finland, Finnish Karelians traditionally live in the regions of Savonia and Northern and Southern Karelia. As Finland had to cede parts of Karelia to the Soviet Union in World War II, evacuated Finnish Karelians settled also elsewhere in Finland. They traditionally speak Karelian. However owing to Karelian not being recognized as its own language by the Finnish government until recently, most Karelians had no choice but to learn Finnish and now speak mostly Finnish Karelian dialect. "

How the things are in reality is explained here (in Finnish) by a reliable, neutral source:. That is: 1) people living in Savonia are not regarded as Karelian neither by themselves or anyone else. They are Savonians. And they also do not speak karelian language but instead the Savonian dialects of Finnish. 2) Most people living in the regions of South Karelia region in Finland and the Northern Karelia region in Finland do not and have not spoken karelian language in the 19th an d 20the century. Instead, they have, at least in 19th and 20th century spoken the Eastern Finnish dialects, and of those the southeast Finnish dialects in southern Carelia and Savonian dialects in Northern Karelia. In 16th century or so, Karelian langue was still spoken in nothern Karelia but then there was some migration in and out and Savonian dialects spread there. In the areas ceded to Soviet union after World war two, the southeastern dialects of Finnish language were spoken in the western parts of the area and Karelian language was spoken in the eastern part of the area. Also, the southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken in Ingria, where also ingrian language and votic language were spoken. And so, those from the western parts of the ceded areas have been speaking the southeastern dialects of Fiinish language all the time at least trough the 19th and 20th centuries as well before the WW2 and after that. Those from the eastern parts spoke karelian language. I myself am not speaker of either Karelian language or the southeastern dialects of finnish, so I do not have any personal interest on this, and as far as I understand, in Finland there is no controversy about the facts told in the source I gave. The position of Karelian language in Finland has been recognized only recently, as was told in the text, but not all the inhabitants of the ceded areas spoke karelian languge, but, instead, in the western part of the area southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken. And all this, as far as I can understand, is not matter of opiniin but, on the contrary, widely held and undisputed facts.--Urjanhai (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

And so, the main issue to my opinion is not the neutrality but just misconseptions and misunderstandings abnout the basic facts on which there is no controvesrsy (at least with the passage cited).--Urjanhai (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

 * just now I did not have time to rewrite the introduction. In the source I gave above there is all information that is needed. --Urjanhai (talk) 11:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

In the chapter "Language" there was a template about relying on single source. This, however, was not the main problem, as the source given is reliable and undisputed (in fact the same I gave above), but, instead, the text in the chapter written with reference to the source was written for the gratest part against the source given and the interpretations and claims made in text could not be found in the source at all. So I rewrote the whole chapter according to the actual source. Also the arhcive link was totally needless because the resource had been there all the time, only the url had slightly changed.--Urjanhai (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

 * I tried to fix some of the issues brought up by Urjanhai above in the first section of the article. However, it would be good if somebody with better sources could check it and possibly phrase it better. The fact is that this article has MASSIVE issues. There is even a picture of a woman from Jääski on there; Jääski which was populated by Finnish Karelians, not the Karelians this article is about. It would be better if English Wikipedia did the same thing as Finnish and Russian Wikipedias, and had two different articles, one for these Karelian-speaking Karelians this article is about, and another one for Finnish Karelians. Karjalaiset (kansa) and Карелы are equivalents to this article, whereas Karjalaiset and Карелы (субэтнос финнов) are about Finnish Karelians. --Vilutar (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 April 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - Apart from the nomination there is one !vote in favour. For those against moving there is one !vote against. Were it simply numerical I might relist or call this a straight no-consensus. However AjaxSmack has raised very strong reasons, based in established guidelines, for not carrying out the proposed move. Particularly WP:ONEOTHER means there is no point in the proposed disambiguation page and WP:PRECISION also casts doubt on it. I see nothing that rebuts these points, but if you wish to discuss this further come and find me on my talk page. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 12:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Karelians → Karelians (ethnic group) – On the page Talk:Karelia (historical province of Finland) multiple users came to the conclusion that "Karelians" page should probably be made into a disambiguation page. This disambiguation page would have links to two articles, one being this and the other being about Finnish Karelians (named Karelians (Finns) or something along those lines). Latter which does not exist yet but would be split from Karelia (historical province of Finland). There was a little bit of conversation about what these two articles should be named. I made the suggestion of naming them Karelians (ethnic group) and Karelians (Finns) in the same spirit as we have articles Macedonians (ethnic group) and Macedonians (Greeks). Nobody has objected so I'm bringing the conversation over to this article. Vilutar (talk) 16:04, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

 * In this very discussion page I see the subject of the differentiation of Karelians to be controversial. Maybe it's just a couple of editors but it could be a "real world" controversy. I'd try to be sure of that first (not saying you aren't, just saying I'm not and I prefer not to vote about it without knowing that point).
 * If Karelians are mostly considered two different ethnic groups and only fringe groups or individuals find that controversial, then the choice is obvious: split the Karelia article, create the Finnish Karelian one and the disambiguation, and move this one. If the controversy is real and there are enough people and/or groups that believe Karelians are a single group, then I believe they should be in a single article that covers the controversy.
 * Just a little extra detail: I consistently see the use of the word "Finn" as an ethnic/"nation-state creation"/XIX century nationalism term, while the term "Finnish" is used as an administrative/current country/citizenship term. Maybe my interpretation of the terms is wrong, but if that's how they are used and I understand the Karelian topic properly, then these Karelians wouldn't be "Karelian Finns" but "Finnish Karelians" (as they are actually referred to in this very article, by the way). --Metalpotato - ✉ 16:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

 * As far as I know, Finns and Finnish are synonyms. We have the Finns page on this very Wikipedia starting with "Finns or Finnish people".
 * Both Finnish and Russian Wikipedias (aka places where I'd expect people to have the most issue about these concepts) have different articles for both (Karjalaiset, Karjalaiset (kansa), Карелы (субэтнос финнов), Карелы). What is usually understood to traditionally differentiate Karelians as a people and Karelians as a sub-group of Finns is that the former speak the Karelian language and are Orthodox Christians while the latter speak Finnish and are Lutheran Christians. The former also feel they are their own nation and the latter identify themselves as one of the sub-groups of Finns (among others like Tavastians, Savonians, etc). That is the situation simplified, of course. As for "real world" controversies, from what I've seen nowadays it's mostly about ethnic-group-Karelians not liking it if they are called Finns/Finnish, while Finnish Karelians feeling that their identity is strongly tied to being Finnish. --Vilutar (talk) 17:46, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

 * All that seems legit, you've solved my concerns. You have my vote and will see the same things happen in the Spanish Wikipedia (where I usually am one of the editors that works in the articles related to Finland).
 * By the way, the whole Finn/Finnish thing looks like a bias on my side: we do have that differentiation in my first language (Spanish, where we use "finés" for things related to the Finn people and "finlandés" for things related to Finland, although people make mistakes with the words sometimes). For example, the Finnish Language is called "idioma finés" in Spanish, and "idioma finlandés" is discouraged as wrong, because all the languages of Finland (Finnish, Swedish, Sámi, Karelian, etc) are "idiomas finlandeses" ("languages of Finland"). The same happens with people: someone of, for example, Swedish ethnic background who is a citizen of Finland is a "finlandés" but not a "finés", while someone of Finnish ethnic background who is a citizen of the USA is a "finés" but not a "finlandés". Looks like I was biased towards seeing the same differences happen in English, that's the reason I mentioned them in here, sorry for that. --Metalpotato - ✉ 18:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Swedish has the same thing between "finnar" and "finländare", while in Finnish there is no differentiation. Sometimes it would be very useful to have that differentiation though. Vilutar (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * When I learnt of the proper use of the words in Spanish I started seeing they were not used consistently in the Spanish Wikipedia, so I started a "campaign" to change them all using Replacer, but since I wanted to be really sure and have some arguments in case someone was against my edits once I started fixing them (it didn't happen lol), I reasearched it for a little while first.
 * When researching, I recall reading somewhere that in the Finnish language the difference doesn't exist (I remember even the word "suomalainen" because I loved the way it sounds), and we have that difference between both words because of either Swedish or German influence, I don't remember which exactly, but in case it came from German, it would make sense they "copied" it from Swedish first, if we look at the history of Finland and the geography involved.
 * Now I wonder if English did, too, use initailly Finn and Finnish as two different concepts because of Swedish or any other language influence and then started forgetting it as we did, until the terms became interchangeable; or there is another reason for the terms in English to be synonims... God, I love languages, they are amazing! --Metalpotato - ✉ 01:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure if English had any divisions, they have words like Swede/Swedish, Dane/Danish and I've only ever seen those as synonyms as well. I do share your love for languages hahah
 * Btw, I just noticed there is an article called Karelian which is a disambiguation page. How do you think it should be handled, if this page is moved to "Karelians (ethnic group)", would "Karelians" be made to redirect to "Karelian" then? Not sure if there's point in having 2 different disamb pages for "Karelian" and "Karelians". Vilutar (talk) 10:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, as happens with other similar cases like indians. --Metalpotato - ✉ 13:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Nice, thanks for the insight. If there are no more participants in this convo, I'll take care of it next week. Vilutar (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose per WP:ONEOTHER (a disambiguation page is not needed for only two articles) and nb WP:1OTHERPRIMARY. (I'll add a DAB hatnote now.)  In addition, both groups are ethnic groups, so the proposed title violates WP:PRECISION.  —  AjaxSmack  04:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

why is this "national karelian flag" everywhere on english wiki?
its not there neither in Finnish or Russian, nor i can find any other ethnicity article that would have their own flag in the infobox (probably because i didnt look too hard for it), same goes for the area article (Karelia). Welso (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Are you talking about this flag?
 * Flag of Karel.svg
 * This is the flag of the short-lived Republic of Uhtua, which is considered the first national state of the Karelians until it was liquidated during the [[Russian Civil War]. Since the national movement of Karelians, this flag has been considered the national flag.
 * And yes, the national flags of other ethnicities are also available in infoboxes, for example, like the Circassians or Evenks. Modun (talk) 11:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * republic of Uhtua only existed on paper, the flag was rarely used by anyone besides the Irish-Karelian regiment I think. (See https://voinitsa.ru/pages/art261.aspx ) Again, its all subjective but if you would have went to Karelia and asked a random ethnic Karel of their flag, they would have just "покрутили пальцем у виска", of course if you dont get lucky enough to meet this guy: https://www.twitch.tv/uebermarginal/v/1870981001?sr=a, but again they are just the town's crazymen. Welso (talk) 12:38, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * either way its just a bad idea to hang a flag on an ethnic group, or to hang an ethnic group on a flag. Welso (talk) 12:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, in general, it's just a historical fact of how this flag appeared. Secondly, it was the Karelians themselves who chose this flag as the basis, so it would be unlikely that they would “покрутили пальцем у виска”. No one forcibly imposed it on the Karelians, so it's not up to us to decide. Modun (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * i am talking about not some karelian nationalist groups, but the ethnicity overall. Hanging this flag over all of the ethnic karelians and not just the nationalists is like hanging the soviet flag over all ethnic russians. I didnt hear of no vote for karelians to show up and decide that it is their flag, did you? Welso (talk) 12:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * well, in general, the Karelians themselves use it as widely as possible as their own flag (despite the fact that there are not so many Karelians left because of not identifying themselves as Karelians in the census). By the way, many Russians also use the Soviet flag as their own. But this is a separate issue. Modun (talk) 13:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And what flag do you propose as the Karelian national flag? The flag of the Karelian Republic in this capacity is not suitable, if only because it is just the flag of one of the subjects of the Federation. In a row, would the Tver Karelians use it Modun (talk) 13:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not dare to propose a new flag for Karelians — I just think, and again, thats just a subjective view of mine, that the flag should be replaced with the map of where the Karelians live, thats it. Welso (talk) 15:44, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Karelians


text:
Litvínov

Litvínov (Leutensdorf) is a town in Most District in the Ústí nad Labem Region of the Czech Republic. It has about 23,000 inhabitants. It is known as an industrial centre.

Administrative parts
Litvínov is made up of 12 town parts and villages:

 * Dolní Litvínov
 * Horní Litvínov
 * Chudeřín
 * Hamr
 * Horní Ves
 * Janov
 * Křížatky
 * Lounice
 * Písečná
 * Růžodol
 * Šumná
 * Záluží

Etymology
The initial name of the settlement was Lutvínov (in old Czech written as Lutwinow). It was derived from the personal name Lutvín, meaning "Lutvín's (court)". The German name Liutwin, from which the name Lutvín was derived, is made up of Old High German words liut ('people') and wini ('friend').

History
The first written mention is from 1352. Originally there were two settlements – Horní Litvínov and Dolní Litvínov. In 1715, Count Jan Josef Valdštejn founded a large cloth factory, one of the first in the Czech lands.

Litvínov was promoted to a town on 5 October 1852. In the 19th century, the industrialization of Litvínov deepened. Many new factories were established. Toys and wooden goods were made here, cotton was processed. The mining of lignite, which persists to this day, began, and after a new part of the railway was put into operation in 1870, other coal mines were opened. In a short time, a total of 19 mines were built. Employment opportunities attracted many new residents.

As a result of the global economic crisis in the 1930s, the largely industrial Litvínov was also severely affected. Production was limited in factories or was completely stopped, and the mines were also affected.

In 1939, a large oil refinery was founded south of the town.

Economy
The largest oil refinery in the Czech Republic (owned by Orlen Unipetrol) is located there.

Transport
In addition to buses, trams also provide public transport. The town operates a transport company together with the neighbouring city of Most.

The I/27 road (the section from Most to Dubí) runs through the town.

There are two train stations in Litvínov. The station named Litvínov is the terminus and start of a line to Ústí nad Labem. The station named Litvínov město is located on the line Rakovník–Osek.

Sport
Lítvínov is a traditional centre of ice hockey. Local club HC Litvínov is a stable part of the top national league (Extraliga) since 1959. Many famous ice hockey players and coaches are connected with HC Litvínov, including 1998 Olympic gold medalists Ivan Hlinka, Vladimír Růžička, Jiří Šlégr, Robert Reichel and Martin Ručinský.

Sights
Church of Saint Michael is the oldest and most important state-protected monument of Litvínov. It was built in 1685–1694 in the early Baroque style. The church has been renovated many times, for the first time in 1763. During the major renovation, which took place between 1887 and 1902, the interior was significantly beautified.

Waldstein's Castle (also called Litvínov Castle) serves today social and cultural purposes. It was rebuilt into the form of today's Baroque chateau in 1732–1743 by the architect František Maxmilián Kaňka. After the abolition of the castle garden, an English-style castle park with an area of 8 ha was established in 1878. From the end of the 19th century, the castle was used for economic purposes, and since 1964 a museum has been established here.

Osada, local part of Horní Litvínov, is well preserved and is protected by law as an urban monument zone. It includes a uniform and high-quality urban area with apartment buildings built by the occupation authorities during World War II for employees of the chemical factory in Záluží.

Notable people

 * Květoslav Minařík (1908–1974), yogi and mystic
 * Milan Šťovíček (born 1958), politician and mayor of Litvínov in 2006–2009 and 2010–2014
 * Josef Beránek (born 1969), ice hockey player and coach
 * Robert Reichel (born 1971), ice hockey player
 * Eva Herzigová (born 1973), model
 * Iva Frühlingová (born 1982), singer and model
 * Zuzana Tvarůžková (born 1983), TV presenter
 * Jakub Petružálek (born 1985), ice hockey player

Twin towns – sister cities
Litvínov is twinned with:
 * 🇫🇷 Brie-Comte-Robert, France
 * 🇩🇪 Olbernhau, Germany

title: Litvínov


text:
Indian robin

The Indian robin (Copsychus fulicatus) is a species of passarine bird in the family Muscicapidae. It is widespread in the Indian subcontinent and ranges across Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. The males of the northern subspecies have brown backs whose extent gradually reduces southwards, with the males of the southern subspecies having all-black backs. They are commonly found in open scrub areas and often seen running along the ground or perching on low thorny shrubs and rocks. The long tail is usually held up and the chestnut undertail coverts and dark body make them easily distinguishable from pied bushchats and Oriental magpie-robins.

Taxonomy
In 1760, the French zoologist Mathurin Jacques Brisson included a description of the Indian robin in his Ornithologie based on a specimen that he mistakenly believed had been collected in the Philippines. He used the French name Le grand traquet des Philippines and the Latin Rubetra Philippensis Major. Although Brisson coined Latin names, these do not conform to the binomial system and are not recognised by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature. When the Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus updated his Systema Naturae for the 12th edition in 1766, he added 240 species that had been previously described by Brisson. One of these was the Indian robin. Linnaeus included a brief description, coined the binomial name Motacilla fulicata and cited Brisson's work. The type location was subsequently corrected to Puducherry in southern India. The specific name is from the Latin fulicatus for "dusky" or "black". The Indian robin was formerly placed in the monotypic genus Saxicoloides. It was moved to Copsychus based on the results of molecular phylogenetic studies of birds in the family Muscicapidae.

Description
The Indian robin is sexually dimorphic in plumage, with the male being mainly black with a white shoulder patch or stripe whose visible extent can vary with posture. The northern populations have the upper plumage brownish, while the southern populations are black above. The males have chestnut undertail coverts and these are visible as the bird usually holds the 6–8 cm long tail raised upright. The females are brownish above, have no white shoulder stripe and are greyish below, with the vent a paler shade of chestnut than the males. Birds of the northern populations are larger than those from southern India or Sri Lanka. Juvenile birds are much like females, but the throat is mottled.

Several subspecies are named based on their plumage differences. The nominate subspecies refers to the population found across southern peninsular India. The subspecies leucopterus is found in Sri Lanka. In the two subspecies cambaiensis of northern and north-western India and erythrura (=erythrurus) of north-eastern India (south to around Sambalpur), the males have brown backs. The subspecies intermedius includes birds in appearance between cambaiensis, erythrura and fulicata, the last one found in central India and parts of the Deccan region. The subspecies munda was named based on a specimen from the Punjab, but it is now considered synonymous with cambaiensis. Older classifications treat the population in southern India as the subspecies ptymatura while considering the type locality as Sri Lanka, although it has subsequently been restricted to Pondicherry.

Local names recorded by Jerdon include Nalanchi (Telugu), Wannatikuruvi (Tamil, Washerman bird), Dayaal (Marathi)  Kalchuri (Hindi) and Paan kiriththaa (Sinhala). The former genus name indicates that it looks similar to Saxicola, the genus of the pied bushchat, a bird often found in similar habitats.

Distribution and habitat
This bird is found in open stony, grassy and scrub forest habitats. They are mainly found in dry habitats and are mostly absent from the thicker forest regions and high rainfall areas. All populations are resident and non-migratory. The species is often found close to human habitation and will frequently perch on rooftops.

The species was introduced into the New York region, but did not become established there. A vagrant or escape has been noted from the Maldives.

Ecology
Population densities of 193-240 individuals per square km have been estimated in the Pondicherry University campus. The ratio of males to females was about 1.5:1. Territory size for males is estimated at about 6650 m2. Males can be aggressive to others during the breeding season and will even attack reflections. Human activities such as felling and firewood removal in forests appear to benefit them.

Food
They feed mostly on insects but are known to take frogs and lizards especially when feeding young at the nest. Individuals may forage late in the evening to capture insects attracted to lights.

Breeding
The breeding season is December to September, but varies according to region and usually begins with the first rains. Peak breeding in northern India is in June and is earlier in Southern India. In Sri Lanka, breeding is in March to June and August to September. Males sing during this season and display by lowering and spreading their tail feathers and strutting around the female, displaying their sides and fluffing their undertail coverts. The songs of males have variants for inviting mates and for deterring other males. Males will drive away other males and patrol their territory by flying with slow wing beats from perch to perch. They may sometimes peck at their reflections. An aggressive display involves fluffing up the feathers and holding the bill high.

Nests are built between rocks, in holes in walls or in a tree hollow and are lined with animal hair. It has been noted that many of them are also lined with pieces of snakeskin sloughs. The eggs are of regular oval form, but many are elongated and a few pointed. They have a fair amount of gloss. The ground colour is white, often tinged with faint green or pink which is rather closely spotted, speckled, streaked, or mottled with rich reddish- or umber-brown and brownish-yellow with some underlying lavender. The markings are denser at the larger end of the egg, where they form an irregular cap. Some eggs are blotched with dark reddish-brown at the large end. They are about 0.76 - 0.84 in long and 0.55 - 0.62 in wide. Three to four eggs is the usual clutch. An abnormal clutch of seven has been noted, although none of the eggs hatched at this nest. Only the female incubates the eggs, which then hatch in about 10–12 days. The chicks have black down. Both males and females feed the young, the male sometimes passing food to the female who, in turn, feeds the young. Nestlings may feign dead (thanatosis) when handled and may be preyed on by the rufous treepie. The same nest site may be reused in subsequent years.

An old anecdotal record of these birds laying their eggs in the nests of Turdoides babblers has not been supported by later observers. Laboratory studies have demonstrated cyclic changes in the melanin pigmentation of the tissue surrounding the testes. The dark pigmentation is lost during the breeding season and regained later.

Parasites
Several parasites, including a cestode, have been identified in this species.

Other sources

 * George, JC (1963) Some observations on the breeding behaviour of the Indian Robin, Saxicoloides fulicata (Linnaeus). Pavo 1(2):71-78.
 * Magon, VK (1979) Distribution of acid phosphatase in the digestive system of two Indian birds, Uroloncha malabarica and Saxicoloides fulicata. Pavo 17(1&2):27-32.
 * Rajvanshi, G; Gupta, MM; Yeshowardhana; Singh, VS. (1985) Histochemical localization of calcium and iron in the gonad of male Indian Robin (Saxicoloides fulicata). Pavo 23(1&2):31-36.
 * Rajvanshi, G; Gupta, MM; Bhatnagar, VK; Bhatnagar, Sumar (1985) Cyclic changes in Carbohydrate localization in gonad of male Indian Robin Saxicoloides fulicata (Linn.). Pavo 23(1&2):41-46.
 * Gupta, MM; Rajvanshi, G; Singh, VS. (1986) Histochemical localization of proteins and Tryptophane aminoacid in testis of Indian Robin Saxicoloides fulicata (Linn.). Pavo 24(1&2):69-76.

title: Indian robin


text:
Talk:Silures

"South Walean"
"...South Walean roots..." - I am probably being ignorant, but isn't the correct adjective 'Welsh'?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.16.2 (talk) 16:42, 2004 May 9 (UTC)

 * I would have to say, that there is no "word" for "people from South Wales". I am Welsh and from South Wales, but I have never heard a way to identify "us" with a designation.  So, while I think the writer was trying to be clear, he/she had to coin a neologism - "Walean".
 * perhaps "Welsh from South Wales" would work, although clumsy, it is clear and avoids the neologism. I relooked at the context, and think that simply saying:  "The poet, Henry Vaughan, called himself a "Silurist", by virtue of his roots in South Wales." would be clear and unambiguous.  Should I be Bold?  haha
 * human 04:29, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Google for "south walean" -wikipedia" does bring back a few hits, from such rarefied territories as bbc.co.uk. "south walian" brings back a few hundred more.  Being thoroughly Hwntw myself, I've heard "South Walean" here and there, but *never* "South Welsh". Vashti 16:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I've edited the change to "South Welsh" to something we can hopefully all agree on. However, from the Oxford English Dictionary: "Walian, n. and a.  A. n. A native or inhabitant of South (or North) Wales.  B. adj. (Characteristic) of or pertaining to this region."  The entry for "Welsh" is extensive, but does not include the usages pertaining to the region.  FWIW: just because you haven't heard a word before doesn't make it a neologism - the OED's example usage is from 1834. Vashti 09:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * South Walian is the conventional term most commonly used to describe the inhabitants of South Wales and is in fact the only term I've ever come across. I am myself a South Walian. Thomani9 15:30, 2 June 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.233.158 (talk)

Geographic boundaries of the territory of the Silures
Although I understand the limitations of sources, one description of their territory:

The Silures occupied an area on the north shore of the Bristol Channel and it was this tribe which became the main enemy of Scapula. Their name appears several times in Tacitus, in the road itineraries 11 and on an inscription from Caerwent (RIB 311). There is a hint from Tacitus (Agricola 11) that these people may originally have migrated from Spain by the Atlantic route. Apart from the fact that Caerwent (Venta Silurum) became their capital, there are no indications of the boundaries of their territory. The obvious western and northern boundary is the River Wye, and to the west they faced their neighbours the Demetae of Pembroke and Cardiganshire. The name of the Demetae is given by Ptolemy and was also known to Gildas, 12 the Briton who wrote a kind of religious tract in the early sixth century; the name survives in the modern Dyfed. Their capital was Carmarthen (Moridunum) and Ptolemy included Loughor (Leucarum) in their territory. The boundary between them and the Silures was, therefore, either the Tame or the Mellte.

Webster, Graham. Rome Against Caratacus : The Roman Campaigns in Britain AD 48-58. London, UK: Routledge, 1993. p 17. L Hamm 07:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

All the photos
What's with all the photos of the same thing, all with the same caption? Did someone come back from vacation and decide to use Wikipedia instead of Shutterfly to display his snapshots? Certainly one or two of them would suffice, and only one instance of the caption is needed. —Largo Plazo (talk) 17:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Boundaries and the map
Exchange below copied from User talk:Ghmyrtle:

Hi. Still not sure how to use this really so many apologies if it's wrong. I made an amendment to the Silures page to state that the tribe would certainly not have been kind enough to respect a border that did not come into being for many hundreds of years later. The "footprint" of the Silures on most maps that seriously attempt to place them, including the one on the mentioned page, has the tribe's footprint into parts of what is now England and generally Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, although some have Avon/Somerset as a small part of the footprint. The same can be said for the other British tribes up to the first century as they would not be constricted by any future borders and it is rather a shame to use on certain pages a map of modern day Wales to show historical data when there are much better maps available but I am not skilled enough to be able to make such changes or suggestions. I hope I haven't caused a problem. regards.

77.89.134.201 (talk) 15:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

 * That's fair enough. Most of the sources that I've read, such as this one, describe them as a tribe of "south east Wales" - obviously Wales did not exist at the time, but the River Wye certainly did, and was probably primarily a natural barrier, separating different groups, as well as being a trade route.  The "boundary" between the Silures and other groups was probably never fixed, fluctuated, and in detail is unknown, though it may be possible to gain some insight from archaeological finds, the shape of hillforts, and so on.  The map in the article, showing the current Wales boundary, is useful simply for orientation, I think.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I do have another source, this, which says of the Silures: "Their eastern boundary was the Wye, and possibly their northern boundary too..." Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I think your points are valid and I have seen your contributions throughout wiki which generally prove to be well thought out or referenced. It is difficult to determine accuracy on certain matters without more evidence or source material and agree the natural barriers would have formed some sort of border but to show celtic tribes, or indeed the Welsh, within the borders of a 21st century map I believe is misleading since either the border did not exist or was different from what we have now. I see no harm in including the border as a reference point but to show it as a permanent borderline after which something or someone totally different might exist must be false. I believe that to appreciate the data it would be sensible, as some maps already in Wiki do, is merely overlay the area with modern day boundaries for reference only rather than have tribes, kingdoms, etc stop at a boundary which did not exist in context. Appreciate your views. Regards

77.89.134.201 (talk) 09:09, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I think we agree that the areas of the tribes should not be shown with boundaries, and that the modern Wales boundary is useful for reference and orientation. In my view, the map doesn't suggest that the line was a "permanent border" - I've just added to the caption, to make clear that it is shown for reference purposes only.  My only query over the map (and it's a minor point which I wouldn't have raised if you hadn't raised it first) is whether the word Silures on the map should be shown, as it now is, extending north-east of the River Wye beyond Hereford.  I think it is common ground that their territory extended up to the Wye, over the area which became Ergyng and later Archenfield which is now in Herefordshire and thus England - but it is uncertain whether their territory extended further into Herefordshire or over the Forest of Dean (in Gloucestershire).  But all those things are uncertain and unknowable, and I have no real problem with the current map, which was drawn by User:Notuncurious.   I'll copy this exchange over to the article talk page, so that editors can comment if they want. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Genetics of the Basque and Welsh
In the paragaph below you mention that: '''Genetic studies carried out by University College London, Oxford University and the University of California have suggested that most Welsh and Irish Celts share in part (Y-chromosomes, mtDNA) with the Basque people who originated in northern Iberia during the Paleolithic. "But it is still unclear whether the link is specific to the Celts and the Basques, or whether they are both simply the closest surviving relatives of the early population of Europe" [1] [2]'''

This is no longer to be considered accurate.The R1b1b2 halpotype is only between 4000-8000 years old and is believed to have originated in sothwest Asia.

■'''Haplogroup R1b1b2 (M269) is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1b2a1a (P310/S129) and most European R1b1b2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1b2a1a1 (U106) or R1b1b2a1a2 (P312/S116).'''

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The link between the Basques and the Celtic populations also are not univeraly excepted; From the European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape

Quote''': Contrary to previous suggestions, we do not observe any particular link between Basques and Celtic populations beyond that provided by the Paleolithic( this is no longer excepted by mainstream Geneticists) ancestry common to European populations, nor we find evidence supporting Basques as the focus of major population expansions.'''

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html 234aaa (talk) 07:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

 * This is absolutely true. I'll remove the bit in doubt. Professorstampede (talk) 19:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Call a Cat a Cat!
When you write from the start: "The Silures were a powerful and warlike tribe of ancient Britain, ..." Who are you? A Roman, a jesuitic Saxon or an illiterate American? You write like a poor churchy or holly joe of primary school! What is this view point to talk as a hoaxer, about old Welsh People? Same the Romans, that I hate, say "PEOPLE" and never tribe (tribe is for the beasts or celts in gang who live in herds or hordes). Your words are stupid; worthy of a disciple formatted or moulded by the fakes copied in casuistic books. Your terms are also silly that this Roland's song is a papal swindle total fiction. How many moron historians are able or competent to write the true of our history? None, who think that a God creates the Planets and the women with a small bone of one Adam (Antic Clown).

First: the Silures was the People of a country very well organized, not a "Tribe or Clique" like Clans of Scottish who was a long time only Celts (from CEL [kil, kel, cal], hidden; a hideout of a criminal, a carcass, a rotten).

Second: they was not especially "Warlike" before the roman's invasion. But when armies from one society of procurers, supporters of slavery, arrive to kill the people of your race and to rape your women, I don't think that you stay like a victim to be a gentle martyr in catholic tales of the masters who want to be the world's rulers.

Third: "ancient Britain", is just a wrong name given by Romans or "Latinofastres", a phonetic mutation of PRYDEIN, PRYD-YNYS (YNI = Energy, vigour; YNYS = Island. See in a Welsh dictionary for the meaning). This name of "Britain" is dated since only the 5th AD, by the members of the Sect of Roma, never by the People of LLoegr or New-LLoegr. So you have to search the real name given before and during the romans really fascist invasions, and to stop to repeat big insults in a total denial of the true history of WALES (from the Welsh verb GALLUS; the GALLI came from GALLIA or the old-LLOEGR [lore, lware], or LLYDAW).

Why the Wikipedist-writers have a so narrow outlook, as they was all educated by priests, who spoke a dead-jargon of a Sect, and so sophists (Jesuits, liars, hoaxers, falsifiers)? The LADIN, LATIN (from the Welsh, LAT, LAD, LADD = Benediction & others meanings; and certainly also from LAZARUS, LAZARET = LEPROUS, the LEPER) a slang-tongue of the 7th century AD, never spoken by any People of this planet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.214.247.37 (talk) 12:04, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Popular Culture References?
Does anyone else agree that a popular culture section would be appropriate, particularly regarding the usage of the term "Silurian" in the series, "Doctor Who" to depict a race that is discovered beneath the earth in Wales? Are there other popular cultural references to the Silures that would also warrant mention (if you accept the premise of such a section)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.20.241 (talk) 20:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

 * No. The Silurians in Doctor Who are pretty obviously named after the geologic period and have nothing to do with the ancient British people. --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Modern county boundaries referenced in lead?
At present it reads:

 * The Silures were a powerful and warlike tribe of ancient Britain, occupying approximately the counties of Monmouthshire, Breconshire and Glamorganshire of present day South Wales; and possibly Gloucestershire and Herefordshire of present day England.

A recent change by user:DynGlas has changed it to:

 * The Silures were a powerful and warlike tribe of ancient Britain, occupying approximately the counties of Gwent, Breconshire and Glamorganshire (Gwent is Welsh for our histiric lands. Gwent has always been used, but this is a rascist issue by this writer who wants to call it Monmouthshire. The English want to rewrite our History...so if you want to continue with this then I will inform the Welsh language commissinor, about this very racist use of the English word Monmouthshire! The Silures lived in Roman occupied county of Gwent, Monmouthshire was only created when the Norman/Saxon language began in the 13 Century.( Torfaen, Newport, Blaena Gwent, Caerphily were all in the Welsh land of Gwent south Wales. Due to Boarder changes by the English Government, who moved and created new boundries did half of the Silurian lands became Monmouthshire of ((South Wales]] and the person writing this is inacurate!!... also on the subject of Llanmelin, if you spoke to Ray Howell you could varify these facts!! and possibly Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Summerset of present day England.

I've reverted this, simply because it dumped a load of editorial content into article space, when it belongs here on the talk: page instead.

Now, some points (and sorry, I've no time to go further at present):

Andy Dingley (talk) 00:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * We're defining their geography in terms of modern counties, that you can find on a current map. This isn't politics, it's giving our readers a simple cross reference.
 * Is the early medieval (but post-Roman) Kingdom of Gwent a useful benchmark? It's not a recognisable concept today and it post-dates the Romans, let alone the Silures. However it does supposedly follow some of their same boundaries.
 * If we're linking to Monmouthshire, then which is the best target link?
 * What was their boundary? If we are placing it incorrectly, then yes, we fix that. We need sources though.
 * Finally, Somerset?!

 * Obviously, you were right to revert the other editor. Moving on, I'm not keen on any references to specific counties in the lead, simply because they are well-defined and the area covered by the Silures was not.  "South east Wales, and some adjoining areas of what is now England" is the sort of thing that would cover it for me.  Not Somerset.  There is evidence for a steady transition and continuation from the Silures, via the Roman period {Venta Silurum, etc.), through to Gwent, so it is logical to make that link, which probably needs to be developed further.  I have Ray Howell's Searching for the Silures, which is a good book source, and may be able to draw some edits from it in due course.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Our purpose is to give modern readers an idea where they were. So is "South east Wales, and some adjoining areas of what is now England" adequate to do this? I'm broadly happy with this, rather than using counties. After all, no-one really understands the boundaries between Monmouth, Gwent and Torfaen these days.  Small clarification though - is "England" taken to mean northwards or eastwards? Gloucestershire is a big area and AFAIK, we aren't talking about that much of it.  Also, are there any rivers or natural boundaries that mark a border for the Silures and would be understood today? Andy Dingley (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've realised that this was discussed previously, a few threads up. The Wye (which cuts through modern Herefordshire) was certainly a boundary, but I don't think we can call it the boundary.  These things were very fluid at that time anyway, and there is even less information on how far Silurian control extended to the west or north of their core area.  Howell describes them as "of south-east Wales", but does not discuss boundaries in any detail, presumably because there is simply not enough evidence.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * PS: How about something like... "...a powerful and warlike tribe of ancient Britain, believed to have occupied lands, now predominantly within south east Wales, west and south of the River Wye." The article text can then expand upon the relationship with later Gwent, broadly in the same area.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm unclear on the rivers aspect. We know the Romans bridged the Usk and the Wye, where the Silures would have had difficulty crossing that low down the river. I'm assuming their boating skills were at most at the coracle level, as for the Demetae. Later, it seems that the Kingdom of Gwent was indeed bordered by these rivers. So where were the Silures? Did they cross the rivers? Were they Foresters? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I simply don't think anyone knows. Some sources show maps with lines indicating the general extent of their territory, but they are indicative rather than definitive.  I much prefer maps like the one shown in this article, where the name is shown extending over a vague general area.  We don't have the information to be more specific, which is why I'd prefer a general term like "south east Wales".  However, it's pretty certain that what is now southern Herefordshire (south of the Wye) was also within their territory - there's no reason to think that the post-C16 England-Wales boundary there applied during the time of the Silures.  We don't know whether the people of the Forest of Dean were counted as Silures or not.  Bryan Walters' The Archaeology and History of Ancient Dean and the Wye Valley says that "geographically they [the people of Dean] were isolated from the Dobunni, the Silures and the [unnamed] Herefordshire tribe by the Severn, the Wye and the Herefordshire plain...", though coins of the Dobunni have been found in Dean, suggesting trade across the Severn.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel
"The Spanish academic Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel hypothesises that..."

It's probably not relevant to mention her nationality, so I've deleted it, but according to German Wikipedia she was born in Milan... Flapdragon (talk) 23:25, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The Roman Tacitus wrote of the Silures
non atrocitate, non clementia mutabatur – the tribe "was changed neither by cruelty nor by clemency".

Was it translated to "But neither sternness nor leniency prevented the Silures from fighting." nowadays? https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Annals_of_Imperial_Rome/bzHAm7wZM-0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT219&printsec=frontcover&dq=Silures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.146.8 (talk) 15:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Silures


text:
Herbert Philbrick

Herbert Arthur Philbrick (May 11, 1915 – August 16, 1993) was a Boston-area advertising executive who was encouraged by the FBI to infiltrate the Communist Party USA between 1940 and 1949. His autobiography was the basis for the 1950s television series I Led 3 Lives.

Communist Party involvement
Philbrick's involvement began when he joined the Cambridge Youth Council, a Communist front group in Cambridge, Massachusetts. His suspicions aroused by the strange power structure and the positions taken by this group, Philbrick contacted the FBI. Encouraged by them, he began deepening his involvement in Communist activities, joining first the Young Communist League, and later, as a secret member, the Communist Party itself.

Philbrick was used by the Party for his advertising skills. Another asset was his public role as a Baptist youth leader. After time spent in local party cells in Wakefield and Malden, Massachusetts, he received training in the fundamentals of Marxism–Leninism and worked for the Party in a variety of front groups. Later he was removed from local party work and assigned to a cell of professionals where his main work consisted of working on the 1948 Progressive Party presidential campaign of former U.S. Vice President Henry A. Wallace.

During Philbrick's time in the Communist Party, its membership and support were eroded by the Party's sharp zigzag from anti-war agitation during the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, to enthusiastic support for the war effort after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.

While Philbrick was in the Party, Earl Browder, its General Secretary, who was enthusiastic about wartime cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union, and was looking forward to postwar cooperation and growing acceptance of the Communist party by the American public, dissolved the Communist Party and reconstituted it as the Communist Political Association, apparently intending to set the Party on a reformist course. Philbrick himself made a brief show of opposing this new policy—a masterstroke, as the policy was also opposed by William Z. Foster, longtime Chairman of the Communist Party. Shortly thereafter, in July 1945, as a result of the Duclos letter—a letter by a leading French Communist, which actually was a policy directive that originated in Moscow—the Party turned away from Browderism and again took a Marxist–Leninist line, though not completely abandoning the tactics of the united front.

Foley Square trial
Philbrick's Party career came to its end when the Justice Department decided to use him as a witness in the Smith Act prosecutions of the leadership of the Communist Party, in the Foley Square trial. On April 6, 1949, he was called as a witness, testifying about his career and training as a Party activist. His testimony was perhaps most useful in that he demonstrated from the content of the training which he had received that the intent of the Communist Party was to overthrow the government of the United States. The trial took almost a year, and all 11 defendants were convicted.

Upon appeal, convictions were upheld in 1951 by the United States Supreme Court in Dennis v. United States. However, in 1969 Brandenburg v. Ohio de facto overruled Dennis. The Court held that the government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

Philbrick claimed that he was only paid by the FBI for his expenses, but "FBI files show the bureau paid him $6,823 for services and $359.38 for expenses through the trial’s resolution." Nevertheless, he did turn down several invitations to testify before Senator Joseph McCarthy's hearings. He told a reporter for The Boston Globe that "McCarthy harmed the cause of anti-communism more than anybody I know."

Book
He went on to write an autobiographical book, I Led Three Lives: Citizen, 'Communist', Counterspy. In addition, a television series called I Led 3 Lives, starring Richard Carlson and Ed Hinton, loosely based on Philbrick's experiences, aired in syndication for three seasons during the 1950s. He received $141,015 in royalties from the show.

Later years
Later in life, Philbrick retired to the home of his youth, in the Little Boar's Head district of North Hampton, New Hampshire. He remained active, giving speeches and encouraging youth and adult citizens to exercise their political rights and power, admonishing his listeners to be ever-watchful against those who would undermine the republican form of government. Toward the end of his life, he owned and ran a variety store in Rye Beach, New Hampshire. He claimed that he never stopped traveling under assumed names and watching for people following him.

On August 16, 1993, Philbrick died at his North Hampton home.

Philbrick was father to six children with his first wife Eva: Dale, Brenda, Leslie, Connie, Sandra, and Herbert Jr. He had a daughter, Dawn, with his second wife, Shirley Brundige Philbrick.

Philbrick's personal papers were acquired by the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress, where they are made available to researchers.

title: Herbert Philbrick


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Causes of mental illness

'''This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of the page entitled Causes of mental illness.

This page is kept as an historic record.

The result of the debate was to delete the article.'''

This page is horrible. It's somewhere between original research, a copyvio, and an advert. I can't find it on Google as a copyvio, but that doesn't mean it's not one. Guanaco 04:09, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. I think there should be an article of this title, which implies voting rewrite.  But this is such a despicable start that I'd rather it were resurrected afresh.  I've added a 'factual accuracy dispute' boilerplate. --bodnotbod 15:11, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I also think there should be an article on this topic. But this one is horrible. If any facts can be salvaged from this mess, merge them into Mental illness. Andris 16:43, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Just found this: Causes of psychiatric disorder. So delete content and redirect. --bodnotbod 20:50, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ridiculous content of questionable veracity. Redirect as Botnotbod suggests. Rosemary Amey 22:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect. Someone is taking a valid subject and twisting it into their own vanity page. - Lucky 6.9 03:56, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Redirect is pointless, anyone searching on this will find the mental illness article without a redir. Andrewa 07:07, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Agree with bod that there should be a legitimate article with this title.  ElBenevolente 23:11, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, but there does need to be a good article about this. Burgundavia 20:10, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue or the deletion should be placed on other relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
EMusic

eMusic is an online music and audiobook store that operates by subscription. In exchange for a monthly subscription eMusic users can download a fixed number of MP3 tracks per month. eMusic was established in 1998, is headquartered in New York City with an office in London, and is owned by TriPlay.

Company ownership history
The original eMusic was started in March 1995 by Mark Chasan as the fourth online CD retailer. Originally conceived as an online record retailer, Chasan envisioned the system providing "direct digital delivery of music to homes" at low prices. At the time, Chasan was working on several new audio streaming methods, since existing technology had low sound quality with long download times, and he was working on improving this functionality. Eventually his service was able to sell digital music files online.

In February 1998, Chasan partnered with Nordic Entertainment, owned by Kent Kiefer, to increase the catalogue available to eMusic customers. They became the first digital media retailer and sold the first MP3 players on the internet. Both companies were then acquired by Goodnoise Records, which was owned by Gene Hoffman, Bob Kohn, and Gary Culpepper. They also acquired on-line music pioneer Internet Underground Music Archive (IUMA). The combined company continued to be known as eMusic. It went public on Nasdaq in 1999.

eMusic then purchased Guy "Weazel" Giuliano's internet radio service GBS Radio Networks. The new consortium launched the first online radio network LoudRadio, to broadcast over a terrestrial radio station via KLOD-FM in Flagstaff, Arizona along with IUMA. In November 1999, eMusic acquired main rival Cductive and in December 1999 acquired Tunes.com, which operated Rollingstone.com and DownBeatJazz.com. Then in 2001, the major label Universal Music (then a division of Vivendi Universal) bought eMusic.com for US$24.6 million.

In November 2003, the service was purchased from VU Net USA by a New York–based private equity arm of JDS Capital Management, Inc. Following a contentious period during which information disseminated by the company was limited, it was relaunched in 2004. Relaunch was soon followed by a new format for the eMusic site, significant increase in both editorial and music content and an eventual price increase for most subscription levels. Commensurate with this relaunch, David B. Pakman became the CEO of the company until leaving in November 2008.

On October 21, 2015, eMusic was acquired by Israeli media startup, TriPlay. The full terms of the deal have yet to be disclosed.

Features
eMusic is a digital music store, founded in 1998 as one of the first sites to sell DRM-free MP3s. The site also features original editorial content and was expanded in March 2014 to include Wondering Sound, an online music publication which includes eMusic's archived music features, interviews, news, photography, and new long-form articles and interviews.

eMusic's music store, as of March 2011, had more than 12 million tracks, up from 9 million tracks in September 2010. New subscribers can take out a seven-day trial before taking a full subscription; the trial account becomes a billable subscription account after seven days. Refunds are possible, under certain circumstances, by contacting eMusic customer support. Subscriptions allow users to download a number of tracks per 30-day period.

eMusic currently offers a number of Membership plans, including Basic, Plus, Premium and Fan in exchange for a monthly fee. Every 30 days the download limit is reset (regardless of how many songs were downloaded). eMusic also offers "booster packs" to subscribers, which expire after 90 days rather than after a month, and are consumed when subscribers download tracks beyond their monthly allotments. Earlier business models prior to Dimensional Associates' ownership supported an "all-you-can-eat" download subscription. For a monthly fee, customers were able to download as many tracks as they wished from the service.

eMusic was one of the first sites to sell music in the MP3 format, beginning in 1998. It differs from other well-known music download services (such as the iTunes Store and Amazon Music) in that it is a download-to-own subscription service. However, in 2011 eMusic took its first, limited step into streaming in an effort to help users discover unfamiliar tracks and artists more easily.

In 2006, eMusic added two European versions of its online store: 'eMusic UK' and 'eMusic Europe'. Current subscribers to the global site that were within the European Union had their membership transferred to the appropriate European store. eMusic UK and eMusic Europe have higher prices compared to their North American counterpart, partially due to the extra sales taxes which these stores are now subject to. However, the changeover also included access to labels previously unavailable to non-European customers, notably London-based Domino Records and artists such as The White Stripes and Mogwai. It is also notable that the European version of the store is for customers within the European Union, not customers within Europe.

eMusic's early growth may have been due to its early support of the MP3 format, lack of digital rights management (DRM) encoding and low prices; all concepts advocated by the Open Music Model. Devin Leonard of CNN attributed eMusic's growth to its being the only online music store aside from iTunes that sold tracks that could be played on an iPod. In 2009, eMusic changed its pricing structure, raising prices for new users and most existing users. The move was unpopular with some, but tracks from the Sony catalogue over two years old were then made available to eMusic customers. Prior to July 2009, eMusic mainly sold music from independent labels.

eMusic shares the revenue with artists who have submitted music via digital distribution service providers such as CD Baby, TuneCore, Nimbit, State 51 and EmuBands. eMusic has not had significant growth in subscribers – maintaining over 400,000 subscribers since 2007.

eMusic was the first digital retailer to sell DRM-free downloadable audiobooks in the MP3 format beginning in 2007. Audible.com, its largest competitor, offers audiobooks with digital rights management in the .aa format.

eMusic launched a Canadian version of its store in 2008.

On July 14, 2016, eMusic launched eStories, an audiobook service that will offer 80,000 titles at a cost of $11.95 per title to use, plus 33 percent off additional purchases.

File format support
Due to the contentious nature of DRM encoding that was initially used by competing download services, eMusic won early praise for not including any in their own files, despite the fact that it cost them contracts with the major record labels. eMusic openly stated that this was a business move that has greatly aided the site's popularity. While the site currently sells music from the four major record labels, the company has stated that it will remain true to its independent roots and build new product features that are geared towards members who are independent-minded, not mainstream pop-culturists.

eMusic stores a record of user purchases on its internal servers, but does not place any purchaser information inside the tracks that are sold. The service uses the LAME mp3 encoder to produce variable bit rate MP3 files. Analysis on the files show that the preset used is alt-preset-standard, a high quality VBR preset aiming at an average bit rate around 192 kbit/s. However, and contrary to the information published on the web site, files can sometimes be found in lower quality bit rates, including for recent releases. The preview streams provided for each song match the bit rate quality of the full download files.

Music catalogue
eMusic has had contracts with both the independent labels and the four major music labels in the United States. Most of eMusic's contracts are with independent labels, giving the service a reputation for primarily offering indie rock, indie pop, heavy metal, punk rock, jazz and classical music. eMusic highlights its offerings through a host of exclusive editorial content, along the lines of monthly "editor's picks", columns and guides.

The site's alternative (or "indie") rock selection has also been aided by the rise in widely distributed but privately owned labels such as Kill Rock Stars and Matador Records, who have a fair amount of big-name talent on their rolls (e.g. Cat Power, The Decemberists, Interpol and Sleater-Kinney, who have been among eMusic's top-sellers). Music from other popular indie labels includes Merge Records (Spoon, Arcade Fire, Lambchop), K Records (Modest Mouse, Built to Spill), Touch and Go Records (Mekons, Girls Against Boys), and TVT Records (Lil Jon, Ying Yang Twins, Guided By Voices).

In 1999, eMusic made headlines by releasing Long Tall Weekend by They Might Be Giants, the first internet-only distributed album by a major artist. The band also went on to release a series of monthly, exclusive rarities collections (known as "TMBG Unlimited") through the service in 2001 and 2002. John Flansburgh said that "Getting a half dozen or dozen unreleased songs out each month provides an ‘ultimate fan club’ experience."

In 2004, with the change from an unlimited download subscription model to a set-track subscription download model, eMusic increased their catalogue content over the next few years, particularly in the Indian soundtrack and Indian classical genres and in the classical music genre and added such labels as Saregama, Naxos, BIS, Chandos, Harmonia Mundi and Telarc.

In June 2006, eMusic added new music from V2 Records in the U.S. The label is one of eMusic's highest-profile additions thus far, with multi-platinum acts Moby and The White Stripes and critical favorites including Grandaddy. However, this music is not available to eMusic users in many other countries and while Moby is still available at present, The White Stripes' catalog was removed until Warner Bros. was brought on.

In June 2007, eMusic added perhaps its biggest star yet to its lineup: Paul McCartney of The Beatles. His album, Memory Almost Full, is also the first release on Starbucks' Hear Music label.

The eMusicLive Venue Network is 22 independent clubs in the US where live shows are recorded and offered to eMusic subscribers. Numerous shows are recorded every week. In addition to subscription sales, recorded CDs are offered for sale at the venue immediately after the event. eMusic plans to establish kiosks where the music can be delivered directly to MP3 players or flash drives.

Beginning September 18, 2007, eMusic began to offer audiobooks in MP3 format.

On April 2, 2008, eMusic added The Rolling Stones when they were on their ABKCO label. This includes their music from 1964 to 1970, plus any compilations made thereafter by ABKCO. The availability of The Rolling Stones' catalog ended on May 3, 2008.

On June 1, 2009, eMusic struck a deal with Sony Music Entertainment to sell music released two years ago or earlier.

On January 12, 2010, eMusic struck a deal with Warner Music to sell music from its catalog, including music from the Warner Brothers, Atlantic, and Rhino labels, making them the second of the Big Four to enter an agreement with eMusic.

In November, 2010, eMusic expanded its catalog to include Universal Music. With the massive expansion, eMusic will also introduce a new pricing schedule that will set individual song prices based upon the song's popularity. Song credits will no longer be used for subscribers. Instead, eMusic subscribers will be given dollar for dollar credits to spend at the site. The labels Beggars Group, Domino, and Merge will no longer be on eMusic. Merge Records later returned to eMusic in May 2015. In addition, eMusic changed its policy on redownloading so that customers can no longer go to their download history and redownload tracks or albums.

By spring 2011, eMusic had deals with all four major record companies: Universal Music, Warner Music Group, Sony Music Entertainment and EMI Music. Its May 2011 agreement with EMI also included the jazz label Blue Note. Despite the expansion of its catalogue, the company claims to maintain strong connections with independent music labels.

At the end of September 2014, eMusic announced on its website that going forward, in a return to its indie music roots it would focus on independent labels, and exit the mainstream music business. The New York Times reported that eMusic had confirmed that it would no longer carry recordings from Sony, Universal and Warner. According to the article, independent musicians and labels often have complicated arrangements with major labels for their music to be distributed, and that an eMusic spokesperson had stated, "the independent labels that use major label distribution resources have been removed from the site."

In July 2018, The Orchard, a distributor owned by Sony Music, removed its catalogue from the service, stating that eMusic had failed to make payments. Naxos Records and INgrooves have also removed their catalogues for the same reason.

Executive staff
The current management team for eMusic consists of:
 * Chief Executive Officer & Chairman – Daniel C. Stein (2003 – December 2014)
 * Managing Director Europe – Madeline Milne (April 2006 – April 2013)

Cductive
Cductive was a pioneering online music store that sold 99 cent mp3 downloads and custom CD compilations from a selection of several hundred independent record labels. In December 1999, the company was acquired by main rival eMusic, and most of Cductive's artists and labels are still available via the eMusic service.

title: EMusic


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shuman Ghosemajumder

This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of the page entitled .

This page is kept as an historic record.

The result of the debate was to delete the article.

Vanity. RickK 04:26, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * + an attempt to drive up traffic at his website. delete. --bodnotbod 15:13, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Not vanity. Keep. anthony (see warning) 15:54, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: He gets a fair number of Google hits that aren't from his own web site. Are we sure this is vanity? A CEO of a notable company deserves an article. Everyking 17:50, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I tried googling for his company "Anandas Consulting". It's an "e-business consulting firm in Toronto", only 95 google hits and it is not clear if the company still exists (its website does not exist). In one sentence, it is not a notable company. So, I vote delete. Andris 21:03, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue or the deletion should be placed on other relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.