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English Tangier

English Tangier was the period in Moroccan history in which the city of Tangier was occupied by England as part of its colonial empire from 1661 to 1684. Tangier had been under Portuguese control before Charles II of England acquired the city as part of the dowry when he married the Portuguese infanta Catherine. The marriage treaty was an extensive renewal of the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. It was opposed by Spain, then at war with Portugal, but clandestinely supported by France.

The English garrisoned and fortified the city against hostile but disunited Moroccan forces. The exclave was expensive to defend and fortify and offered neither commercial nor military advantage to England. When Morocco was later united under the Alaouites, the cost of maintaining the garrison against Moroccan attack greatly increased, and Parliamentary refusal to provide funds for its upkeep partly because of fears of 'Popery' and a Catholic succession under James II, forced Charles to give up possession. In 1684, the English blew up the city's harbour and defensive works that they had been constructing and evacuated the city, which was swiftly occupied and annexed by Moroccan forces.

Background
Tangier has the best natural harbour on the western end of the Strait of Gibraltar, allowing its owner to control naval access to the Mediterranean. Since antiquity, it and Ceuta to its east were the major commercial centres on the north-western coast of Africa.

Portugal
The Portuguese started their colonial empire by taking nearby Ceuta in 1415. Years of conflict between Portugal and the Moroccans under the Wattasid and Saadi dynasties followed. In 1471, the Portuguese stormed Asilah to the west and threw Tangier into such chaos that they were able to occupy it completely unopposed.

By 1657, the position had changed. The Saadi dynasty steadily lost control of the country to various warlords and finally came to an end with the death of Ahmad al-Abbas. The main warlord around Tangier was Khadir Ghaïlan (known to the English of the time as "Guyland"). He and his family had taken control of much of the Gharb, the Rif, and the other coastal areas around Tangier. He appears to have considerably increased attacks on Portuguese Tangier.

Meanwhile, after the Dila'i interlude, the Alaouites came to the forefront. Mulai al-Rashid (known as "Tafileta" by the English) took Fes in 1666 and Marrakesh in 1669, essentially unifying all of Morocco except the ports occupied by Portugal, Spain, and England. He was supportive of restoring Muslim control over the ports, but he and the last of the Dila'ites (around Salé) still put their own pressures upon Ghaïlan.

The Treaty of the Pyrenees in November 1659 specifically pledged that Louis XIV of France would withdraw support from Portugal under the Braganzas and released Spanish troops and ships to pursue the continuing Portuguese Restoration War. Portugal, severely weakened and with little support in other countries, sought a renewal of its alliance with England to counterbalance the renewed Spanish threat to its independence.

The alliance—which had originated in 1373—had been adjusted and renewed in 1654 under Cromwell—and was again renewed in 1660 after the English Restoration. Negotiations for the marriage of Charles to Catherine of Braganza (originally proposed by CharlesI) had started shortly after (perhaps even before) the Restoration, and the proposed marriage was mentioned by the Venetian envoys as early as June 1660. As part of the dowry, Portugal was to hand over the port of Tangier and the island of Bombay (now Mumbai) but it is unclear when those detailed terms were agreed upon or became publicly known. Some were widely rumoured early, certainly before the marriage treaty itself.

The Portuguese government was content to part with Tangier, though many within the country had reservations. The anchorage was not particularly safe for shipping and, exposed to the Atlantic and to destructive winds from the east, it was expensive to maintain, requiring significant improvement. Khadir Ghaïlan had mounted a major attack on the city in 1657, forcing the governor and garrison to appeal to Lisbon for assistance. Portugal, hard pressed in its war of independence from Spain and struggling against Dutch aggression in the East Indies, could not hope to maintain all of its overseas possessions without English assistance and could not afford to commit troops to the defence of Tangier while fighting Spain in the Iberian peninsula. Indeed, Portugal had even offered Tangier to France in 1648 to try to solicit support against Spain.

However, cession of Tangier to England was not popular with the general public and with many in the army. The governor of Tangier, Fernando de Meneses, refused to co-operate and had to be replaced in 1661 by the more compliant Luis de Almeida.

Spain
Spain had tolerated Portuguese occupation of Tangier as part of the Treaty of Tordesillas and had left its Portuguese administration largely undisturbed during the Iberian Union and even under the long-running Restoration War, lest a weakened position expose it to Moroccan reconquest. Nonetheless, Spain was strongly opposed to English possession of Tangier and insisted that the cession would be illegal. Indeed, the note presented by the Spanish ambassador in May 1661 openly threatened war.

A strongly established English naval presence at the Straits of Gibraltar posed a threat to its ports on both the Atlantic and Mediterranean and to communication between them. It also threatened communication not just with Spain's colonial empire but with the maritime links between Spain and the Habsburg's Italian possessions in Sicily and Naples. English fleet activities in the Mediterranean under Robert Blake and Edward Montagu between 1650 and 1659 had shown just how vulnerable Spain's shipping lanes had become. With its emphasis on its transatlantic possessions, Spain had no Mediterranean fleet and could not protect its shipping there: the presence of a hostile naval force at Tangier would make the transfer of Spanish troops from Italy to Spain for the intended war against Portugal much more difficult.

By a proclamation of 7 September 1660 (announced in Spain on 22 September), Charles had declared peace with Spain, but in the same month the Commons passed a bill annexing Dunkirk and Jamaica. Both had been taken under Cromwell and both had been demanded back by Spain upon the ascension of CharlesII. There was a fear in England that the Portuguese commander at Tangier would hand the port over to Spain rather than "heretic" England or that Spain would otherwise attempt physically to prevent the handover, even if its actions fell short of war. There were further fears that Spain had enlisted Ghaïlan's assistance to attack by land while Spain attacked by sea.

Dutch Republic
The Dutch had suffered intensely during the First Anglo-Dutch War. Although they were at peace for the moment, they were still competing intensely for trade and had no wish to see the English navy further establish the Mediterranean power it had developed under Cromwell. They were at war with the Portuguese and did not want to see the Anglo-Portuguese alliance renewed. The Dutch hoped to seize more of Portugal's overseas possessions and had equipped a fleet for that purpose in 1660. They tried, unsuccessfully, to strengthen relations with KingCharlesII by the Dutch Gift in July of the same year.

The States General also sought in negotiations from July 1660 until September 1662 to secure a treaty or pact of friendship with England, but refused to extend such a treaty to any colonies outside Europe with the sole exception of the island of Pulo Run. While that negotiation went on, Charles offered to mediate between the United Provinces and Portugal. (The Anglo-Portuguese treaty, a very short time later, required this.) His intervention resulted in the Treaty of The Hague on 6 August 1661, although it was ignored by the Dutch East India Company. The Company seized Cranganore, Cochin, Nagapattinam, and Cannanore from Portugal in 1662 and 1663.

At the same time, King Charles sought the advancement of his nephew William (later WilliamIII) as Stadtholder. Johan De Witt, the "Grand Pensionary", was a confirmed Republican and had excluded William through the 'secret' (but widely leaked) Act of Seclusion annex to the Treaty of Westminster with Cromwell. The States General was unable or unwilling to rein in the Dutch East India Company's aggressively anti-English and anti-Portuguese activities; the Republic hence had no significant influence in Restoration England, and De Witt's diplomatic failures in 1660–1661 marked the beginning of the end of the Dutch Golden Age. Although De Ruyter's presence in the Mediterranean necessitated caution, the English acquisition of Tangier could not be meaningfully opposed by the Dutch.

France
In France, Cardinal Mazarin was at the height of his powers following the formation of the League of the Rhine in 1658; the defeat—with the help of Cromwell's army and navy—of the Prince of Condé and Spain at the Battle of the Dunes the same year; and the signing of the Treaty of the Pyrenees on 7 November 1659. Spain (then allied with English Royalists) and France (allied with Commonwealth England) made peace, and by the treaty LouisXIV was betrothed to Maria Theresa of Spain. The treaty also required France to cease direct or indirect support for Portugal. In May 1660, six months after the treaty was signed, CharlesII was restored. Mazarin realized that an alliance between Restoration England and Spain, with its extensive lands in Italy and the Netherlands, would almost surround France and leave both more powerful than he wished; he worked quickly to restore relations with Charles's court. By August, he had proposed the marriage of Philippe I, Duke of Orléans, to Charles's sister Henrietta Anne. It is likely that he encouraged the Braganza marriage, but he died on 9 March 1661 and Louis took personal control of his government. In July 1661, Louis sent the Comte d'Estrades as his ambassador to London, and it is clear from the instructions and correspondence between them that the treaty between England and Portugal was welcomed by France. At the time, France had no significant Mediterranean or East Indies naval presence, and English possession of Tangier and Bombay posed no apparent threat. In 1656, Louis or Mazarin had proposed the cession of Tangier to France, but no agreement had been reached and the peace with Spain probably precluded any further similar proposal.

England
In 1659, Cromwell's England was allied to France by the 1657 Treaty of Paris; was allied to Portugal, was at war with Spain, and was not a party to the Treaty of the Pyrenees. King Charles II's government in exile was, technically, allied to Spain and so pledged to resist Portugal's independence and to raise forces against France by the 1656 Treaty of Brussels, the converse of the Commonwealth position. After his restoration, Charles declared peace with Spain in September 1660 but there was already speculation about a possible Portuguese marriage. There is debate as to who proposed Charles's marriage to Catherine of Braganza and when; but by a letter dated 5 or 15 June 1660, the queen regent of Portugal Luisa de Guzmán requested Charles's consent to send Francisco de Mello as an ambassador extraordinary to negotiate a new treaty. According to Clarendon's account, the ambassador suggested the treaty and marriage to the lord chamberlain the Earl of Manchester, who informed the King. Charles consulted Clarendon (Lord Chancellor), Southampton (Lord Treasurer), Ormonde (Lord Steward of the Household), Lord Manchester, and Sir Edward Nicholas (Secretary of State) and enquired as to Tangier to the Admirals Lord Sandwich and Sir John Lawson. Clarendon is vague, perhaps misleading, as to chronology. Ambassador De Mello had a private audience with Charles on 28 July 1660 (7 August 1660 NS) and, after other meetings, returned to Lisbon on 18 or 28 October 1660. The Queen Regent was pleased and made him Marquis de Sande. He returned to England on 9 February 1661 (NS) and from then until the announcement of the marriage at the opening of the Cavalier Parliament on 8 or 18 May 1661 there were rumours and counter-rumours, amongst them suggested marriages to Mademoiselle d'Orleans (who had previously rejected Charles), to an unidentified 'Princess of Parma', and to Princess Maria of Nassau. Indeed, rumours continued even after that, but the treaty was signed on 23 June 1661 and witnessed by Clarendon, Southampton, Albemarle, Ormonde, Manchester, Nicholas, and Morrice.

Sandwich and Portugal 1661–1662
Before the treaty with Portugal and marriage to Catherine was announced at Charles's coronation on 8 May 1661, Admiral Sir Edward Montagu, 1st Earl of Sandwich was commissioned to bring Catherine over to England. The corsair fleet of Algiers was a growing problem. Montagu was instructed, by negotiation or by bombardment, to secure a treaty with Algiers not to molest English ships. He also carried instructions to seek peaceful arrangements with Tripoli, Tetuan, and Salé. Sandwich left London on 13 June for the fleet assembled at the Downs and from there, with John Lawson as Vice-Admiral, sailed to Algiers, where he arrived on 29 July. There was little negotiation, and a short bombardment, but weather prevented more significant action. Sandwich left Lawson to blockade Algiers, and proceeded to Lisbon, not yet in his official capacity as an Ambassador Extraordinaire, but rather to meet a second English fleet which was to take possession of Tangier. There was a perceived danger that the Spanish and Dutch would attack the Portuguese Brazil fleet and, reciprocally, Spain and the allied Dutch merchants feared that the English would attack the Spanish treasure fleet; hence there was some careful watching until those both arrived safely. The marriage, by proxy, of Charles and Catherine was notified to the Governor of Tangier (Don Luis D'Almeida) by letter from the King of Portugal on 4 September 1661. Lord Sandwich sailed back to Tangier on 3 October (arriving 10 October) taking transports for the evacuation of the Portuguese Tangier Garrison. He remained there for some three months, while awaiting the further fleet from England bringing the new Governor and troops. Still expecting trouble from Spain or the Netherlands, Lawson's squadron joined him, unsuccessful in subduing Algiers (although a storm severely damaged the harbour there the next year and enabled a peace later). During the waiting time, there was correspondence with the other Barbary ports, and with Ghaïlan, who ostensibly welcomed Sandwich. Sandwich had met Ghaïlan before, when watering the fleet during his 1657 voyage with Robert Blake in the Mediterranean. It is likely that Sandwich also used the time to obtain details of the city and its defences – Martin Beckman was with Sandwich's fleet at Algiers and Tangier and produced the map later seen and admired by Pepys. It was reported that Sir John Lawson and Sir Richard Stayner purchased houses in the town during this time and, perhaps, Sandwich also bought then the house he later owned.

In England, a Tangier Committee of the King's Privy Council was appointed, with its members including Samuel Pepys, Secretary to the Admiralty, and Prince Rupert of the Rhine. Pepys later claimed that all Rupert did in meetings was to laugh and swear occasionally.

Portuguese raid and handing Tangier to the English
On 14 January 1662, the Portuguese garrison consisting of 140 cavalry attempted a sally out into the surrounding countryside, taking about 400 head of cattle, and also capturing 35 women and girls. Unsurprisingly, the Moroccans numbering around 100 counter-attacked and recovered the booty, killing some 51 of the Portuguese, including the Aidill (the military commander) and twelve knights, pursuing the remainder of the force to the city gates. Alarmed, the Governor (Luis de Almeida) requested assistance from Sandwich's fleet in the bay. Sandwich sent parties of seamen ashore to man the defences, under the command of Sir Richard Stayner, effectively (but not formally) taking control of the city to help protect it against attacks by Ghaïlan (supported by Spain) and, perhaps, to ensure a withdrawal by the Portuguese. By 23 January, Sandwich had three to four hundred men ashore.

Peterborough, Teviot, Bridge, FitzGerald, Belasyse and Ghaïlan 1662–1666
On 6 September 1661, King Charles had appointed Henry Mordaunt, 2nd Earl of Peterborough, as governor and captain general of all the forces in Tangier. Peterborough quite quickly raised a regiment in England, probably in large part from the Parliamentary forces which were being disbanded, but otherwise took some time over the preparations; he finally sailed for Tangier on 15 January 1662, arriving, with a considerable force, on 29 January. When Peterborough landed he found the fleet already in possession. The Tangier Garrison (his new regiment augmented by units from Flanders) disembarked on 30 January and the city keys were handed over with due ceremony.

The start was far from auspicious. The available accommodation was completely insufficient for the three thousand or so troops, who had little in common (neither language nor, for the most part, religion or custom) with the Portuguese population; the money (such as was available to the new occupants) was English currency, unfamiliar to the townspeople. The basis of the Portuguese garrison had, in large part, been a militia of the men of the town and they, of course, had been driven back within the walls. Given that Portugal had been seeking (and, latterly, expecting) to dispose of Tangier; had a major war with Spain at home; and needed to raise a very significant dowry for the marriage; it is not surprising that some neglect may have crept in but it is also clear that Peterborough was not well prepared. The list of the stores which were immediately required, even after Sandwich had provided much from the fleet, is a tacit admission of the inadequacy of those brought with the occupation force. Peterborough reported that the Portuguese, leaving, had carried off the very ffloers, the Windowes, and the Dores, but since most of the inhabitants, and their possessions, were repatriated by the English fleet, that may be an exaggeration.

Moreover, the idea that the Portuguese inhabitants would enrol as soldiers for the new Government is nowhere reflected in the forecast expenditure of the garrison, except in respect of a troop of horse which did, in fact, enrol.

At the time when Peterborough arrived, Ghaïlan was engaged at Salé, fighting with Mohammed al-Hajj ibn Abu Bakr al-Dila'i (known to the English as "Ben Bowker") the last (as it turned out) of the Dila'ites but, with his army, he appeared close to Tangier around 22 March 1662, and Peterborough arranged parleys.

Perhaps indicative of the problem with borders or limits to English possession of the city is the map of the forts around Tangier in 1680. To the East, beyond York Fort, and beyond the ominous, all-embracing, area marked as "The Moors", are the words "To Portugal Cross". It is perfectly likely that this refers to a form of padrão marking what the Portuguese considered to be the border. English occupation never came close to establishing such a distant frontier.

These units were augmented later in 1662 by elements of Rutherfurd's (Scottish Royalist) Regiment and Roger Alsop's (Parliamentarian) Regiment just before Peterborough was replaced by Andrew Rutherfurd, 1st Earl of Teviot as Governor. The regiments were merged (into two in 1662) ultimately becoming a single regiment (1668), and this, the Tangier Regiment, remained in Tangier thereafter, a total of 23 years, until the port was finally evacuated in 1684.

Each redoubt had four hundred men guarding the excavation site, while to the front balls of spikes, stakes and piles of gunpowder-and-stone mix, which acted as basic landmines, were laid.

Norwood, Middleton and Inchiquin 1666–1680
In 1674, William O'Brien, 2nd Earl of Inchiquin took up the post of governor, in succession to the Earl of Middleton. In 1675, a garrison school was founded, led by the Rev. Dr George Mercer.

On 30 December 1676, Charles ordered a survey of the city and garrison of Tangier, which was costing about £140,000 a year to maintain. The survey showed that the total inhabitants numbered 2,225, of whom fifty were army officers, 1,231 other ranks, with 302 army wives and children. Amongst the buildings was a hospital and an army school.

On 4 June 1668, Tangier was declared a free city by charter, with a mayor and corporation to govern it instead of the army. The charter made it equal to English towns.

Ossory, Plymouth, Sackville, Kirke and Mulay al-Rashid 1680–1683
In 1680, the pressure from the Moroccans increased, as the Moroccan Sultan Moulay Ismail joined forces with the Chief of Fez in order to pursue a war against all foreign troops in his land. Reinforcements were needed at the Garrison, which was raised to 3,000 in number. The Royal Scots, shortly followed by a further (new) foot regiment, the 2nd Tangier Regiment, (later the King's Own, 4th Regiment of Foot) raised on 13 July 1680, were sent to Tangier, reinforced by a composite King's Battalion formed from the Grenadier and Coldstream Guards, the Duke of York's Regiment (disbanded in 1690) and The Holland Regiment (the later 3rd Foot) and the remnant of the old Tangier Regiment. The King's Battalion landed in July 1680, and fierce attacks were made against the Moors, who had gained a footing on the edge of the town, finally defeating them by controlled and well-aimed musket fire. The Battalion remained in Tangier until the fort was abandoned.

In 1680 the Earl of Inchiquin resigned and was replaced by Thomas Butler, 6th Earl of Ossory, who died before taking up his post.

In October 1680, Colonel Charles FitzCharles, 1st Earl of Plymouth, arrived as governor, but was taken mortally ill soon afterwards. Lt-Colonel Edward Sackville of the Coldstream Guards took over the governorship temporarily until on 28 December 1680 Colonel Piercy Kirke was appointed colonel and governor.

The garrison at Tangier had to be constantly reinforced, having cost nearly two million pounds of royal treasure, and many lives had been sacrificed in its defence. Merchant ships continued to be harassed by Barbary pirates, and undefended crews were regularly captured into slavery. The so-called Popish Plot in England had intensified the dread of Catholicism, and the King's frequent request for more troops to increase the size of the garrison raised suspicions that a standing army was being retained in Tangier to ensure both a Catholic succession and the political system of absolute monarchy.

In England, in the Exclusion Crisis, the House of Commons of England petitioned the King to give his assent to the Bill of Exclusion (which had passed the Commons, but not the Lords) intended to disinherit the Duke of York (later James II and VII). The Earl of Shaftesbury (effectively the Prime Minister) urged Parliament to disapprove any taxes unless and until the bill was passed. The King refused to prejudice his brother's right of succession and dismissed the Exclusion Bill Parliament and, later, the Oxford Parliament. But he could no longer afford the cost of the colony in Tangier.

Dartmouth and evacuation 1683–1684
For some time Parliament had been concerned about the cost of maintaining the Tangier garrison. By 1680 the King had threatened to give up Tangier unless the supplies were voted for its sea defences, intended to provide a safe harbour for shipping. The fundamental problem was that in order to keep the town and harbour free from cannon fire the perimeter of the defended area had to be vastly increased. A number of outworks were built but the siege of 1680 showed that the Moroccans were capable of isolating and capturing these outworks by entrenchments and mining. Although the attempt by Sultan Moulay Ismail of Morocco to seize the town had been unsuccessful, a crippling blockade by the Jaysh al-Rifi ultimately forced the English to withdraw. In 1683, Charles gave Admiral Lord Dartmouth secret orders to abandon Tangier. Dartmouth was to level the fortifications, destroy the harbour, and evacuate the troops. In August 1683 Dartmouth, as Admiral of the Fleet and governor and captain general in Tangier, sailed from Plymouth. He was accompanied by Samuel Pepys, who wrote an account of the evacuation.

Once in Tangier, one of Lord Dartmouth's main concerns was the evacuation of sick soldiers "and the many families and their effects to be brought off". The hospital ship Unity sailed for England on 18 October 1683 with 114 invalid soldiers and 104 women and children, alongside HMS Diamond. HMS Diamond arrived at The Downs on 14 December 1683. Dartmouth was also able to purchase the release of many English prisoners from Ismail's bagnio, including several officers and about 40 men, some of whom had spent 10 years in the hands of the Moroccans.

All the forts and walls were mined for last-minute destruction. On 5 February 1684 Tangier was officially evacuated, leaving the town in ruins. Thereafter Kirke's Regiment (i.e., the Tangier Regiment) returned to England. The main force of 2,830 officers and men and 361 wives and children finally completed the demolition of the harbour wall and fortifications, and evacuated the garrison during the early months of 1684. The 2nd Tangier Regiment left late in the second week of February for Plymouth with some 600 men and 30 wives and children. The Earl of Dumbarton's regiment (The Royal Scots) went into quarters at Rochester, and Trelawney's (Second Tangier) Regiment to Portsmouth.

Aftermath
Some of the departing soldiers were to be rewarded with large land grants in the newly acquired Province of New York. Thomas Dongan, 2nd Earl of Limerick, a lieutenant-governor of Tangier, became New York provincial governor and William "Tangier" Smith, the last mayor of Tangier, obtained 50 miles of Atlantic oceanfront property on Long Island.

Infrastructure
The English planned to improve the harbour by building a mole, which would reach 1436 ft long and cost £340,000 before its demolition. The improved harbour was to be 600 yd long, 30 ft deep at low tide, and capable of keeping out the roughest of seas. Work began on the fortified harbour at the end of November 1662, and work on the mole in August 1663. The work continued for some years under a succession of governors. With an improved harbour the town would have played the same role that Gibraltar later played in British naval strategy.

title: English Tangier


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Paula Dobriansky

Paula Jon Dobriansky (born September 14, 1955) is an American diplomat, public official, and foreign policy expert who served as Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001–2009) and the President's Envoy to Northern Ireland (2007–2009). A specialist in Central/East European affairs and the former Soviet Union, trans-Atlantic relations, and political-military affairs, Dobriansky held key senior roles in the administrations of five U.S. presidents.

Since 2009, she has been a Senior Fellow at Harvard University's JFK Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and was named in 2018 the Vice Chair of the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security, the Atlantic Council.

Early life and education
Dobriansky graduated summa cum laude from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service and earned her master's and doctoral degrees from Harvard University in political-military affairs. She is a Fulbright-Hays scholar, a former Rotary and Ford Foundation Fellow, and a member of Phi Beta Kappa.

Her Ukrainian-American father, Dr. Lev Dobriansky, was a professor of economics and prominent anti-communist activist who initiated the Captive Nations Week during the Eisenhower administration.

Government service
Over more than 30 years, Dobriansky has served in high-level, Senate-confirmed, government positions. She worked at the National Security Council, the White House (1980–1987) on U.S. policy toward all East European countries and contributed to the crafting of U.S. policy toward the Soviet Union. As Director of European and Soviet Affairs in the Reagan administration, she played a key role in the formulation of U.S. political and economic policies toward Poland, matters regarding the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe and Soviet human rights issues.

From 1987 to 1990, Dobriansky was appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs and served in that capacity in both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. In 1990, she was named Deputy Head of the U.S. Delegation to the 1990 Copenhagen Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe. That same year, she was appointed associate director (Assistant Secretary rank) of the Bureau of Policy and Programs at the United States Information Agency (USIA). And, in 1997, former President Bill Clinton appointed her to serve as a Republican commissioner on the U.S. Advisory Commission on Public Diplomacy (1997–2001), a Senate-confirmed commission.

In 2001, President George W. Bush nominated Dobriansky as Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs, a position for which she was unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate. In that position (2001–2009), she presided over a wide range of areas including human rights, international narcotics and law enforcement, refugees, oceans, environment, science, health, international women's issues and was the head of delegation and lead negotiator on U.S. climate change policy. She is credited with having established and led the U.S.-India, U.S.-China, and U.S.-Brazil Global Issues Fora. She was also a staunch advocate of public-private partnerships and was a Founder of the U.S. Afghan Women's Council. In 2007, while serving as Under Secretary, she became the President's Envoy on Northern Ireland, for which she received the Secretary of State's highest honor, the Distinguished Service Medal, for her contribution to the historic devolution of power in Belfast.

On April 25, 2018, it was reported by U.S. media that President Donald Trump intended to nominate her for the position of Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, thought it was never announced and David Hale was eventually confirmed.

Business and academia
After leaving government service in 2009, Dobriansky became a Senior Fellow at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and later became part of the center's "Future of Diplomacy" Project.

In January 2010, Dobriansky was appointed Distinguished National Security Chair at the U.S. Naval Academy, where she taught senior level foreign policy courses for three years. During this period, she was also a senior advisor at the Bipartisan Policy Center and was co-chair of the center's Commission on Stabilizing Fragile States. And from 2010 to 2012, Dobriansky was Senior Vice President and Global Head of Government and Regulatory Affairs at Thomson Reuters, responsible for designing and implementing a corporate approach for engagement in Washington DC and key capitals around the globe.

Earlier from 1997 to 2001, Dobriansky served as Senior Vice President and Director of the Washington Office of the Council on Foreign Relations and was the first George F. Kennan Senior Fellow for Russian and Eurasian Studies.

Board memberships
Dobriansky is a trustee of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, a non-profit organisation which Lev Dobriansky had helped establish.

A member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the American Academy of Diplomacy (including board of directors), Dobriansky serves on the Defense Policy Board, the Secretary of State's Foreign Affairs Policy Board, and the EXIM Advisory Committee, serving as chair of the Subcommittee on Strategic Competition with China.

Dobriansky also serves as vice chair of the U.S. Water Partnership (USWP), is on Concordia's Leadership Council, the Atlantic Council's board of directors, and Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service advisory board. She is on the IDS International advisory board, providing the company with guidance on strategy and operations. She is on the board of advisors of the China Center at Hudson Institute. From 2011 to 2015, she served as chair of the national board of directors of the World Affairs Councils of America.

Since 2022, Ambassador Paula Dobriansky has been a member of the ACE Global Leaders of Excellence Network, which is diverse platform of ACE Health Foundation, a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, for connecting highly accomplished and successful leaders globally committed to international leadership development, grounded in the premise that focused sharing of knowledge, expertise, and resources increases the probability of productive and powerful outcomes.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Paula Dobriansky


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Talk:Longwave

Royal Navy Subs
That wasn't the best wording on my part, sorry! User:Pegasus33 —Preceding undated comment added 04:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC).

Royal Navy subs
...monitoring 198 kHz. This claim, I think, needs qualifying with an "allegedly" or two. See The Today programme. Don't know -- seems to me like an adroit terrorist group could provoke a nuclear holocaust simply by taking out Droitwich (or Daventry?). –Hajor 20:41, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I am also sceptical of the usefulness of this approach during peacetime, because subs have two-way VLF radio communication. In a crisis, when subs need to maintain complete radio silence, the British authorities could set up military exclusion zones around the three transmitters (Droitwich, Burghead and Westerglen) and such an approach might be more likely. (I suspect Burghead and Westerglen would be switched off in such a situation - subs probably have better receivers than the average Scottish household!). Rugxulo 22:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Canada
I don't know that Industry Canada has allowed "LowFER" in Canada - can anyone find a cite for this? I'll have to check the IC Web site, maybe it's there...--Wtshymanski 13:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Defunct long wave broadcasts?
I seem to recall reading an old issue of Practical Wireless from the 1970s which listed long wave broadcasts from Central Asia that were well into the 300's of kHz. Did these broadcasts exist? If anyone has firm information it would be an interesting addition to the article. Rugxulo 22:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

In light of this article
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-02/su-rgf021706.php someone might want to re-evaluate the statement in the first paragraph of this article about how "longwave signals do not reflect or refract using the ionosphere."

The linked article says "Scientists detect these localized disturbances with VLF radio waves propagating along the Earth's surface. The ionosphere, like a metal, is a good electrical conductor. It acts as a guide for radio waves. That's why the Earth's curvature is no barrier, as VLF radio waves bounce off the ionosphere and can propagate to long distances around the globe, in the so-called Earth-ionosphere wave guide."

I realize that most lowfer xmissions use groundwave prop, but why would signals longer in wavelength than HF not also reflect from the ionosphere?

Relation to LF and MF articles
I've attempted to clarify the relationship between this article, and the LF and MF articles. The situation is still not very good, however; for example, information on longwave amateur bands is in LF, whereas information on LF commercial stations is in longwave. Some kind of merger seems to be in order, but I don't know the best way to handle that, given that the bands don't exactly match. — Johan the Ghost seance 10:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Now general information about LF (30-300 kHz) is in Low frequency and information specifically about LF broadcasting is in Longwave. Sv1xv (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Clarkestown at night
This article claims that RTÉ off Clarkestown decreases its power at night. Now, as far as I can tell and remember (I live fairly close to the mast), in its Atlantic 252 days, Clarkestown operated 100kW daytime and 500kW nighttime. The station engineer I talked to also said the Radio Algeria transmitter went off-air over night. Obviously, even at the suggested power here, I'm not gonna be able to check the Radio Algeria transmissions without some very, very impressive sheilding :p There were reports back in the early 1990s of it being received in Brazil at night, which would suggest it had a clear channel.

Also, I've since been told that RTÉ now operate it at max. 300kW for simple cost saving reasons - they don't need a music quality signal across the entire UK; however would have thought that its still 100 day, 300 night. The site can actually operate at 600 but has no ITU clearance for such. --Kiand 03:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Irish allocation is for 500Kw daytime and 100 Kw night (Clarkestown can theoretically operate at 600Kw but as far as Im aware never actually has). The reason for this is that Longwave (and Mediumwave) signals travel further distances at night (due to ionospheric reflections) leading to increaced interference problems with other countries. In order to mitigate this (somewhat) it is common practive (particularly for larger stations) to run on reduced power at night.

During the odd breakdown at Clarkestown Algeria makes it quite well into Ireland (especially along the South coast) many people mistake it for a French station (since Algeria has two official languages French and Arabic) Finland also has an allocation for 1500Kw on 252 but has never used any more than 100Kw and in recent years hasnt used it at all. 87.112.28.7 13:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Disambig
There needs to be a disambigulation page to differentiate between radio waves and other uses of "short wave" and "long wave" (such as those terms in Meteorology).

Longwave simulcasts in the US
I've heard numerous AM stations simulcast in the LW band inside the US. This seems to contradict the claim that there is no LW broadcast band.
 * A very late reply to that August 2007 comment but please amplify. It's possible what you're hearing is an image of a normal AM broadcast band transmitter; if you notice a consistent pattern where local AM transmitters show up 455 kHz lower on your LF receiver, I suspect this is the case. Other, more complex sources of images can occur especially if two or more transmitters produce a difference frequency in the LF band - but then you'd hear both of them interfering. A good check on this is to put a low-pass filter between the antenna and receiver; even a few extra dB of rejection of the AM broadcast band may make the images go away. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Please don't delete other people's comments, just add your own. Thank you. Sv1xv (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Band Propagation
Article says: Instead, the D-layer of the ionosphere and the surface of the earth serve as a waveguide directing the signal[citation needed].

The following page describes in verbal and graphic way how the ionosphere and the earth's surface act as waveguides for longwave transmissions. http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/EMEO_online/module2/module_2_6.html

I am not sure if it's valid as a citation hence adding it here. I searched elsewhere with little success as how the ionosphere affects longwave radiation.

See also http://books.google.com/books?id=Xo5VxMTCz2UC&pg=PA1621&lpg=PA1621&dq=longwave+radio+ionosphere&source=web&ots=mociqIWSYk&sig=UVhWokRUm0OS5fzoSc9mFSmARaY&hl=en

193.120.148.177 (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Frequency range
Why the ludicrous frequency range of 12 kHz to 1MHz? No one today used the term longwave for this band?Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * No, it is obviously wrong and the reference cited is irrelevant. Currently we call Low frequency the range 30-300 kHz and the term Longwave is used only by broadcasters.
 * Sv1xv (talk) 12:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed this. I got a bit carried away and fixed a whole load of other stuff too.--Harumphy (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Would you mind if I put the paragraph "Historically, the whole radio spectrum... allocated specifically for broadcasting" in a footnote?.
 * Sv1xv (talk) 16:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine with me. Not that I am a regular here.Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Longwave, long-wave, or long wave
I think this article should be called 'Long wave', or better still 'Long wave radio broadcasting band'.--Harumphy (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * "Longwave" is often a single word when applied to radios. Also, as a single word, it is then consistent with "shortwave".

 * More importantly, though, having been on Wikipedia for three years (since November 2005), you should know by now that cut-and-paste moves like the one you performed on August 16, 2008 are against Wikipedia policy and never acceptable; it just creates work for administrators who have to merge the page histories back together (as I've done). Use the "move" tab at the top of the page instead, or if unable to do so because both pages have history, file a request at Requested moves.

 * —Lowellian (reply) 04:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Having been on Wikipedia for three years, I've forgotten most of rules I ever knew. Just as well, because in that time most of them have changed anyway. I tried the page move, but it wouldn't work because of an existing redirect. I didn't know any other way of solving the problem.

 * According to Chamber's 20th Century Dictionary, long-wave and short-wave (when applied to radios) are hyphenated. Inconsistently, it has "medium waves" (plural) without a hyphen. In all three cases, they are *not* single words. Is there an authoritative source to suggest they are single words? --Harumphy (talk) 13:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Let me clarify something first: the main reason I got involved here was in order to merge two split page histories due to a cut-and-paste move. I'm not actually that interested in the name of the page.

 * There are three possible forms:

 * single-word "longwave"
 * hyphenated "long-wave"
 * two-word "long wave"

 * The third form, "long wave", is definitely not right; as a compound modifier (which see), it requires at least a hyphen.

 * Both the single-word and hyphenated forms, however, are correct. It's just one of those examples of variant spellings (is it "dwarfs" or "dwarves"? "indexes" or indices"? "judgment" or "judgement"?).

 * The Longwave Club of America uses "longwave." A couple more examples:
 * "[...] the National Bureau of Standards (predecessor to NIST) began broadcasting a longwave radio signal from its station KK2XEI [...]" -- National Institute of Standards and Technology
 * "[...] until the arrival of shortwave radio, which was faster and cheaper than conventional longwave radio." -- National Aeronautics and Space Administration

 * We should seek consistency here: either have both "short-wave" and "long-wave" or both "shortwave" and "longwave". These are all descriptors of frequency; other "compound" frequency ranges like "microwave" and "ultraviolet" are more commonly seen in single-word rather than hyphenated form.

 * —Lowellian (reply) 16:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Purpose
This article needs information on the purpose of long wave radio, e.g. why it is preferred over MW, why it should be used when long antenna setups are required, etc. -Rolypolyman (talk) 02:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I know the main reason why longwave radio was introduced for commercial radio is that the medium wave band was overcrowded before FM radio became common. It also has a longer daytime range than MW. For military applications longwave radio also has other advantages, e.g. that it goes deeper into water, which is useful for communication with submarines. Also the waves are mostly propagated through the ground and not through the air, so it can be used to communicate with underground bases. --MrBurns (talk) 22:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Photo caption
I added a photo of an old-style radio dial purely as art. Someone has added a caption which I feel takes the image too literally and is inappropriate. I propose to revert it. Comments? --Harumphy (talk) 19:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No comments received, so I've done it. --Harumphy (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

List of longwave transmitters
Please expand this list and add coordinates of transmission sites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.217.2 (talk) 14:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This table requires notes at the bottom explaining what the headers are about. I refer specifically to the header for antennas, are they the transmitting antennas or recommended receiving antennas?1archie99 (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Yafran
Was there ever a longwave broadcasting transmitter in Yafran or elsewhere in Libya? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.158.98 (talk) 17:34, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Disadvantages to Long-waveDadadaddyo (talk) 21:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
As a teenager in America, back in the 1960's, I wondered why with all its advantages there were no civilian broadcast on long-wave in the US and, as far as my research went, never had been. I remember reading that the big disadvantage of long-wave was that lightning almost anywhere on the globe caused static and since there are thunderstorms around the equator at pretty much any moment it was not suitable for broadcasting music (this was long before the days of talk radio). I had a multi-band receiver and I remember scanning the long-wave frequencies on a number of occasions and always picking up lighting type static even when I got none on medium wave (550-1600kHz). Could someone with more expertise address this and any other disadvantages to long-wave?
 * Long wave, because of the long wavelength, needs impractically large antennas to broadcast with any reasonable efficiency. The tallest ever man-made structure before the Burj Khalifa was a longwave transmitter: Warsaw radio mast. Its ground wave range is also relatively long compared to medium wave, which means that the transmissions will reach out over a much wider area (1000 km is not unusual). That may sound like an advantage, but at such low frequencies, bandwidth is at a premium, so the longwave band has to be rather small (it's just over 100 kHz wide in Europe). Combine those two effects, and and what happens is that a single medium-powered transmitter will swamp a very large area, making that frequency unusable to anyone else, and taking away almost 10% of the available frequency space within that wide area. So the longwave band is good purely from a transmission effectiveness point of view (if you ignore lightning interference) but it doesn't work too well on a economical/commercial level. This is one of the reasons the FM band was moved from 50 MHz to its modern place after WW2: the higher frequencies are much more strongly localised to one area, so there is room for a lot more stations in a given space and stations can cater more easily to smaller, local audiences, which keeps costs down and attracts more people. A longwave transmitter for a single large city is silly, but for VHF it works. I think that in a way, paradoxically, what helped longwave survive in Europe is that almost nobody wanted to use it, and radio was always much more strongly regulated historically (generally only state broadcasters could get licences). So there was little competition for frequency space, and that probably kept it viable. CodeCat (talk) 22:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Cessation of most Russian longwave transmissions
'In January 2014 Russia announced the imminent closure of most of its LW broadcasting stations'. – It happened on 9 January 2014 at '1 a.m.' (Moscow? time) according to the updated URL quoted at Note 8. Apparently one remains in service. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.168.232 (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

[[longwave radiation]]
The usage of is under discussion, see talk:Outgoing longwave radiation --  65.94.169.222 (talk) 08:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Carrier Frequencies
I'm really not sure what most of this means. Does this "French language station Europe #1 in Germany" currently space its frequencies by something other than 9 kHz? What's the significance of "only 7 years ago"? No sources are linked to explain any of this. 108.171.128.174 (talk) 09:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It means that this French-language station is not at a multiple of 9 kHz. CodeCat (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

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"177 AM" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect 177 AM. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 23 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Longwave


text:
HMS Guerriere (1806)

Guerrière was a 38-gun frigate of the French Navy, designed by Forfait. The British captured her and recommissioned her as HMS Guerriere. She is most famous for her fight against USS Constitution.

Her career with the French included a sortie with Duguay-Trouin in 1803, in which the two vessels were forced to make an escape from a British ship. They were harried by British forces of varying strengths during their journey back to port and only just reached the safety of Corunna, with Guerrière being engaged by the 74-gun HMS Culloden (1783) until she reached the entrance to the port. She sailed in 1806 with several other French ships to attack British and Russian whalers, but was chased and brought to action by HMS Blanche. After a hard-fought battle, Blanche forced Guerrière to surrender, and brought her back to Britain.

Now commissioned as HMS Guerriere, she went out to the West Indies and served off the American coast for a number of years. She captured a number of privateers, and was still in American waters after the outbreak of the War of 1812. On 19 August 1812 Guerriere, under Captain James Richard Dacres, sighted the American frigate Constitution, under Isaac Hull. The two ships closed and after a fierce engagement the American managed to shoot away Guerriere's fore and main-masts, leaving her un-manoeuvrable. Dacres struck his colours to avoid further bloodshed; the Americans then transferred her crew to Constitution and set fire to the badly damaged Guerriere.

Sailing with Duguay-Trouin
Guerrière served with the French Navy during the Napoleonic Wars under Commander Louis Alexis Baudoin, initially trapped in harbour by the Blockade of Saint-Domingue. She was with the 74-gun Duguay-Trouin on 24 July 1803, when the latter ship was spotted by a British ship off Cape Picolet. The 74-gun HMS Elephant, under Captain George Dundas gave chase, and the two ships exchanged several broadsides. The 18-gun sloop HMS Snake appeared on the north-west quarter, but the Elephant, either because of the appearance of Guerrière to windward, or for another unexplained reason, failed to maintain her position alongside Duguay-Trouin. Consequently, both French ships were able to escape. However, Duquesne, a 74-gun armed en flûte (removing some or all of her armament), was captured. Duguay-Trouin and Guerrière made for the European coast, eventually making the port of Ferrol in Spain. On 29 August they were spotted by the 38-gun frigate HMS Boadicea, under the command of Captain John Maitland. Unable to make out what the unknown ships he had sighted were, he gave chase. Before nightfall he had discerned that the ships were enemies, but heavy fog made it impossible to determine their disposition until just after midday on 31 August, when it became clear that one of them was a 74 gunner and together, they were more than a match for Boadicea. He nevertheless continued to close and tested the Frenchmen's resolve with a broadside. After an ineffectual but vocal reply had revealed to him that the French ships were fully manned and armed, Maitland brought his ship about and began to escape. The French attempted to pursue but were unable to catch Boadicea, eventually returning to their original course.

The two ships arrived off Cape Prior on 2 September, when they were again spotted, this time by a British squadron under the command of Commodore Sir Edward Pellew. The only ship ready and able to pursue the French was HMS Culloden, under the command of Captain Barrington Dacres. He immediately began a pursuit and after a chase, managed to close the French and open fire. Duguay-Trouin, being the weathermost ship, got into Corunna first. The forts defending the port opened fire on Culloden, but she continued to engage Guerrière, until almost within the port, at which point she hauled off and returned to the squadron. Culloden suffered four men wounded, whilst Guerrière had suffered considerable damage to her masts and rigging and had lost six men killed and 15, including her captain and first lieutenant, wounded.

Battling HMS Blanche
Guerrière was despatched from Lorient on 28 March 1806 in company with the frigates Revanche and Sirène, and the brig-corvette Néarque, with orders to attack and destroy British and Russian whalers in the Arctic, off Greenland. She became separated from the rest of the squadron, but was able to capture and burn several whaling vessels. By 16 July, news of her activities, including a recent sighting off the Faroe Islands reached Captain Thomas Lavie aboard the frigate HMS Blanche, then off the Shetland Islands. Blanche quickly sailed to the reported area and on 18 July, sighted Guerrière. At this point Guerrière was carrying 50 guns, to Blanche's 46.

Blanche quickly closed the distance, but Guerrière, perhaps mistaking the British frigate for one of her squadron, did not initially take action. Blanche opened fire at about 15 minutes past midnight, firing two broadsides before Guerrière could respond. A fierce fight followed, with Guerrière eventually surrendering at half past one that morning, having lost her mizzenmast. Blanche had suffered light damage and four men wounded out of her complement of 265. Guerrière had suffered considerable damage to her lower masts, as well as to her hull, both above and below the waterline. Out of her complement of 350, 20 of her officers, seamen and marines had been killed, whilst another 30 were wounded, ten of them seriously. Many of the French crew had been ill below decks during the engagement. Guerrière had been aiming to cripple Blanche by firing to bring down her masts, so that Guerrière might escape. When this failed, Guerrière was eventually worn down and forced to strike.

Blanche escorted Guerrière back to Britain, arriving with her prize on 26 July in Yarmouth Roads. Guerrière was commissioned into the Royal Navy, after a repair and refit which brought her to 48 guns. The captain of Blanche was knighted and the first lieutenant was promoted.

As HMS Guerriere
Guerriere spent 1807 fitting out at Chatham Dockyard, and entered active duty in 1808 under the command of Captain Alexander Skene. She was based in Jamaica and on 15 February she captured the French privateer brig Malvina, of Nantes. Malvina was commanded by René Salaun and carried 14 guns and 60 men. She had been travelling with her prize, the British ship Juliana, which Guerriere recaptured.

In July 1808, the master of an American brig claimed the protection of a convoy from Jamaica, which was being escorted by the 64-gun HMS Veteran. The American traveled with the convoy for part of its journey, but twenty four hours after leaving its protection, he betrayed the strength and course of the convoy to the French. The French privateer cutter Peraty, under the command of M. Maurison, took up position in the convoy's path, hoping to capture some of the ships. Guerrière surprised and captured the privateer after a chase lasting 24 hours. The privateer was found to be the former HMS Barbara (1806), which the French privateer General Ernouf had captured on 17 September 1807. The prize crew had sailed Barbara to Charlestown, where she had been refitted. As Peraty, she had sailed again on 10 September, having been furnished with supplies and provisions for three months of raiding. Peraty was armed with twelve 18-pounder carronades and had a crew of 80 men.

In 1809 Guerriere was under the command of Captain Robert Lloyd, formerly of HMS Hussar (1807). He was replaced in 1810 by Captain Samuel John Pechell, and in October that year, Guerriere sailed to Halifax.

On 1 May 1811 Guerriere stopped the brig USS Spitfire (1803) off New Jersey's Sandy Hook, impressing the apprentice sailing master of Spitfire (and citizen of Maine), John Diggio. Fifteen days later, the frigate USS President (1800) mistook the sixth-rate HMS Little Belt (1807) for Guerriere and attempted to recover Diggio, leading to the Little Belt affair. The incident provoked a diplomatic furor and contributed to the tense atmosphere prior to the War of 1812. Pechell stayed with Guerriere until July 1811, when he returned to his previous ship, HMS Cleopatra. He was replaced by Captain James Dacres, and in April 1811, she sailed for the Halifax Station.

In August 1811 she detained the American brig New Orleans Packet.

Fighting USS Constitution
During the afternoon of 19 August 1812, 41.7°N, -55.55°W about 400 mi southeast of Halifax, Nova Scotia, a sail was sighted on the weather beam bearing down on them. She was soon made out to be a man-of-war and Guerriere prepared for action, mustering 244 men and 19 boys at quarters. When the enemy hoisted American colours, Captain Dacres permitted the Americans in his crew to quit their guns.

The two ships exchanged broadsides for half an hour before the American ship closed her starboard beam and sent HMS Guerriere's mizzenmast overboard. Switching to the other bow, the American ship raked HMS Guerriere, which included sweeping her decks with grapeshot and musket fire, and then attempted to board. Samuel Grant, master's mate commanding the forecastle, was badly wounded and at about the same time Robert Scott, the master, was shot through the knee and the Captain severely wounded. Captain Dacres ordered Lieutenant Bartholomew Kent to lead the marines and boarders from the main deck towards the forecastle, but the two ships parting at that moment meant that they were able to bring some of the bow guns to bear on the Constitution. William J. Snow, master's mate, commanded the fore-most main deck guns and John Garby, acting purser, the after quarterdeck guns.

The two ships were clear of each other when Guerriere foremast and mainmast went over the side, leaving her an unmanageable wreck. The crew managed to clear the debris, but while they were rolling enough to put the main deck guns under water, the American ship came within pistol range to rake them. At this point, Captain Dacres called his remaining officers together and they agreed to strike the colours to avoid further loss of life. Fifteen men had been killed, including the second lieutenant, Mr Henry Ready; six were mortally wounded, 39 severely and eighteen slightly. Lieutenant Kent was wounded by a splinter early on.

They found that the enemy was the heavy frigate USS Constitution under Captain Isaac Hull armed with thirty 24-pounders on the main deck, twenty-four 32-pounders and two bored-out 18-pounders on the upper deck. Out of 476 men, nine were killed and thirteen were wounded. Captain Dacres was surprised and shocked to find a large proportion of British seamen amongst her crew, a number of whom had joined in the boarding party.

Hull wanted to take Guerriere as a prize but by the next morning it was clear that the ship was too badly damaged to salvage. The next day, she was set on fire by her captors; Constitution returned to Boston, Massachusetts. Dacres wrote a report of the action to the commander of the North American Station, Vice-Admiral Herbert Sawyer. A court-martial was held on board HMS Africa at Halifax on 2 October. It found that Captain Dacres was justified in surrendering his ship to save the lives of his remaining crew. The court also found that the masts going overboard was due more to their defective nature than the fire of the enemy. Captain Dacres was later given command of the 38-gun fifth rate HMS Tiber (1813).

Part of Guerriere's crew returned to Plymouth on 16 January 1813 aboard HMS Spy (1804). The French had captured and released Spy on 20 December 1812.

title: HMS Guerriere (1806)


text:
Gandvik

In Norse mythology, Gandvík is a dangerous sea, known as the "Bay of Serpents" because of its tortuous shape.

The 12th-13th century Dane Saxo Grammaticus stated that Gandvik was an old name for the Baltic Sea (a name misspelt Grandvik in some translations). The legend presumably refers to the Gulf of Bothnia. However, there are two opposite theories about where Gandvik was situated, based on the 1323 Treaty of Nöteborg: in the Arctic Ocean or the Gulf of Bothnia. Starting from the 1850s, the former received more support, in that Sweden had extended far out to the Arctic Ocean, but since the 1920s the latter has gained more support. However, Hversu Noregr byggðist, dating from the former part of the 13th century, is by most opinions referring to the White Sea when it uses the term Gandvik.

title: Gandvik


text:
New social movements

The term new social movements (NSMs) is a theory of social movements that attempts to explain the plethora of new movements that have come up in various western societies roughly since the mid-1960s (i.e. in a post-industrial economy) which are claimed to depart significantly from the conventional social movement paradigm.

There are two central claims of the NSM theory. First, that the rise of the post-industrial economy is responsible for a new wave of social movement and second, that those movements are significantly different from previous social movements of the industrial economy. The primary difference is in their goals, as the new movements focus not on issues of materialistic qualities such as economic wellbeing, but on issues related to human rights (such as gay rights or pacifism).

Thinkers have related these movements with the postmaterialism hypothesis and New Class Model as put forth by Ronald Inglehart.

The new movements
Numerous social movements from mid-1960s differed from their precursors, such as the labor movement, which had previously been seen as focused on economic concerns. The 1960s were a period of transformation in collective action, the French May (1968) probably being its most determinant moment. It is important to highlight, however, that it is currently being discussed whether this phenomenon was the first example of a new social movement or as Staricco has stated: "It did not so much open an era as close a one. It was not the beginning of a paradigm, but the end of another one. What comes after – the growing importance of new social movements both empirically and theoretically – can be understood as a consequence, but not as a continuation or progression".

The new movements instead of pushing for specific changes in public policy emphasize social changes in identity, lifestyle and culture. Thus the social aspect is seen by the NSM as more important than the economic or political aspects. Some NSM theorists, like F. Parkin (Middle Class Radicalism, 1968), argue that the key actors in these movements are different as well, as they are more likely to come from the "new middle class" rather than the lower classes. Unlike pressure groups that have a formal organisation and 'members', NSMs consist of an informal, loosely organised social network of 'supporters' rather than members. British sociologist Paul Byrne (#|1997) described New Social Movements as 'relatively disorganised'.

Protest groups tend to be single issue based and are often local in terms of the scope of change they wish to effect. In contrast, NSMs last longer than single issue campaigns and wish to see change on an (inter)national level on various issues in relation to their set of beliefs and ideals. A NSM may, however adopt the tactic of a protest campaign as part of its strategy for achieving wider-ranging change.

Examples of those new movements include the women's movement, the ecology movement, gay rights movement and various peace movements, among others.

The theory
Buechler argues that there is in fact no single new social movement theory, but a set of new social movement theories, each a variant on a general approach to "something called the new social movement", which he cautiously defines as a "diverse array of collective actions that has presumably displaced the old social movement of proletarian revolution".

According to Kendall, the new social movement theory focuses on movement culture; it also pays attention to their identity and on their relations to culture, ideology, and politics.

Important contributors in the field include sociologists such as Alain Touraine, Ernesto Laclau, Chantal Mouffe, Claus Offe, Immanuel Wallerstein, Manuel Castells or philosophers such as Michel Foucault, Jürgen Habermas and Félix Guattari.

Characteristics
The most noticeable feature of new social movements is that they are primarily social and cultural and only secondarily political, if at all. Departing from the worker's movement, which was central to the political aim of gaining access for the working class with the extension of citizenship and representation, new social movements such as youth culture movement concentrate on bringing about social mobilization through cultural innovations, development of new life-styles and transformation of identities. It is clearly elaborated by Habermas that new social movements are the ‘new politics’ which is about quality of life, individual self-realisation and human rights whereas the ‘old politics’ focus on economic, political, and military security. This can be exemplified in the gay liberation, the focus of which broadens out from political issue to social and cultural realization and acceptance of homosexuality. Hence, new social movements are understood as new because they are first and foremost social.

New social movements also give rise to a great emphasis on the role of post-material values in contemporary and post-industrial society as opposed to conflicts over material resources. According to Melucci, one of the leading new social movement theorists, these movements arise not from relations of production and distribution of resources but within the sphere of reproduction and the life world, as a result of which, the concern has shifted from the sole production of economic resources directly connected to the needs for survival or for reproduction to cultural production of social relations, symbols and identities. In other words, the contemporary social movements are rejections of the materialistic orientation of consumerism in capitalist societies by questioning the modern idea that links the pursuit of happiness and success closely to growth, progress, and increased productivity and by promoting alternative values and understandings in relation to the social world. As an example, the environmental movement that has appeared since the late 1960s throughout the world, with its strong points in the United States and Northern Europe, has significantly brought about a ‘dramatic reversal’ in the ways we consider the relationship between economy, society and nature.

Further, new social movements are located in civil society or the cultural sphere as a major arena for collective action rather than instrumental action in the state, which Claus Offe characterises as ‘bypass the state’. Moreover, with its little concern to directly challenge the state, new movements are regarded as anti-authoritarian and resisted incorporation in institutional levels. They tend to focus on single issue, or a limited range of issues connected to a single broad theme such as peace and environment. Without the attempt to develop a total politics under a single focus, new social movements set their stress on grass-roots in the aim of representing the interests of marginal or excluded groups. Paralleled with this ideology, the organization form of new collective actions is also locally based, centred on small social groups and loosely held by personal or informational networks such as radios, newspapers, and posters. This ‘local- and issue-centred’ characteristic which does not necessarily require a highly agreed ideology or agreement on ultimate ends makes these new movements distinctive from the ‘old’ labour movement with a high degree of tolerance of political and ideological difference appealing to broader sections of population.

Additionally, if old social movements namely the worker's movement presupposed a working–class base and ideology, the new social movements are presumed to draw from a different social class base, that is, ‘the new class’, as a complex contemporary class structure that Claus Offe identifies as ‘threefold’: the new middle class, elements of the old middle class and peripheral groups outside the labour market. As stated by Offe, the new middle class in association with the old one is evolved in the new social movements because of their high levels of education and their access to information and resources that lead to the questions of the way society is valued; the group of people that are marginal in terms of labour market such as students, housewives and the unemployed participate in the collective actions as a consequence of their disposable resource of time, their position in the receiving end of bureaucratic control and disability to be fully engaged in the society based on employment and consumption. The main character in old social movements, the industrial working class, nonetheless, is absent here in the class base of new social mobilizations.

Criticism
Some sociologists, like Paul Bagguley and Nelson Pichardo, criticize NSM theory for a number of reasons, including:
 * 1) the movements concerned with non-materialistic issues existed (in one extent or another) during the industrial period and traditional movements, concerned with economic well-being, still exist today,
 * 2) there are few unique characteristics of the new social movements, when compared to the traditional movements,
 * 3) differences between older and newer movements have been explained by older theories,
 * 4) there is doubt in terms of whether contemporary movements are specifically a product of postindustrial society,
 * 5) NSM focuses almost exclusively on left-wing movements and does not consider right-wing,
 * 6) the term "new middle class" is amorphous and not consistently defined, and
 * 7) might be better viewed as a certain instance of social movement theory rather than a brand new one.
 * 8) NSM is largely an extension of 1960s counterculture and built more around protest than any common (internal) unity,
 * 9) newer movements are exceptionalist, where members or proponents see older movements as ineffective or insignificant
 * 10) recent NSMs are fueled by social media and meme culture, often diminishing their seriousness and meaning

List of new social movements

 * Abahlali baseMjondolo (South Africa)
 * Animal rights movement
 * Anti-nuclear movement
 * Anti-War movement
 * Disability rights movement
 * Effective altruism (An international network which attempts to use evidence and reason to identify the most effective ways to improve the world.)
 * Extinction Rebellion
 * Free software movement
 * Occupy Movement (A global anti-capitalist movement)
 * Rastafari
 * Shahbag Movement (A mass movement demanding trial of crimes against humanity) (Bangladesh)
 * Western Cape Anti-Eviction Campaign (South Africa)
 * The Zeitgeist Movement (A global sustainability advocacy movement which spreads awareness about the perceived roots of social problems.)

title: New social movements


text:
Lauren Tom

Lauren Tom (born August 4, 1961 ) is an American actress. She began her career on stage, winning an Obie Award. Her films include The Joy Luck Club (1993). On television, she is known for her roles in the NBC sitcom Friends (1995–1996), the ABC series Men in Trees (2006–2008) and Grace Under Fire (1997–1998), the CW series Supernatural (2012–2014), and the Disney Channel series Andi Mack (2017–2019).

In animation, Tom has voiced Amy Wong in Futurama, Dana Tan in Batman Beyond, Jinx and Gizmo in Teen Titans and Teen Titans Go!, Minh and Connie Souphanousinphone in King of the Hill, Trish and Sherry in Rocket Power, Yan Lin in W.I.T.C.H. and Numbuh 3 in Codename: Kids Next Door.

Early life
Tom was born in the Chicago suburb Highland Park, Illinois, the daughter of Nancy (née Dare) and Chan Tom, Jr. She has a brother, Chip. Her parents were born in Chicago, and their grandparents came from Kaiping, Guangdong, China. She was raised in a largely Jewish neighborhood.

Theatre
At age 17, Tom landed a spot with a touring company of A Chorus Line and was cast in the Broadway production of the show less than a year later in the role of Connie. She won an Obie Award for her Off-Broadway acting and was cast in the Broadway shows Hurlyburly and Doonesbury. In Chicago, she starred in the Goodman Theater's production of 'Tis Pity She's a Whore.

Film
Tom has played several small roles in films including Nothing Lasts Forever, Wall Street, See No Evil, Hear No Evil, and Blue Steel. Her biggest role up until that point was as a waitress in the Robin Williams/Tim Robbins film Cadillac Man. This role led to being a guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson.

Tom's lead role in the film The Joy Luck Club in 1993 led to roles in other films such as When a Man Loves a Woman and North.

Since the mid-1990s, Tom has focused primarily on voiceover roles. She has appeared in a few live-action films, including the 2003 comedy Bad Santa and the 2004 film In Good Company.

Television
Lauren Tom's first role in television was that of Miko Wakamatsu on The Facts of Life. She subsequently appeared on The Equalizer, Vengeance Unlimited, Catfish With Black Bean Sauce, thirtysomething, Quantum Leap, Chicago Hope, Homicide: Life on the Street, Grace Under Fire, Friends, The Nanny, The Middle, DAG, The Division, Monk, My Wife and Kids, Barbershop: The Series, Grey's Anatomy, The Closer, and Men in Trees. She also had a supporting role on the 8th and 9th season of the drama series Supernatural as prophet Kevin Tran's mother, Linda Tran. In 2018, she appeared in the second season of the Amazon Prime drama series Goliath. She also appeared in the 2nd season of friends as julie.

Voice acting
Tom began vocal work in the animated series Superman: The Animated Series playing Angela Chen. From there on, she voiced Dana Tan in Batman Beyond and had minor roles on Pinky and the Brain, Extreme Ghostbusters, and The Zeta Project before landing her regular roles on King of the Hill, where she voiced Minh and Connie Souphanousinphone and later Futurama, where she voices Amy and Inez Wong.

Since first playing the character on stage in the 1983 Doonesbury musical, Tom has periodically voiced the character Honey Huan in media related to Doonesbury, most notably in a series of animated shorts satirizing the 2000 U.S. presidential election.

She has also lent her voice to All Grown Up!, Rocket Power, Max Steel, Handy Manny as Mrs. Lee and Nelson, Samurai Jack, Johnny Bravo, Justice League Unlimited, Kim Possible, and Legion of Super Heroes.

She has also voiced the villains Gizmo and Jinx on Teen Titans, Yan Lin, Susan, Alchemy on W.I.T.C.H., Tasumi on The Replacements, Jake's mom, Counselor Chang on American Dragon: Jake Long, and as Joo Dee on Avatar: The Last Airbender. She also guest-starred in The Penguins of Madagascar as Chuck Charles's co-anchor, Bonnie Chang, in "Gator Watch" and "All Tied Up With a Boa".

In 2010, she provided the voice of Song, Bai Li, and Ming on the animated series Kung Fu Panda: Legends of Awesomeness and played the role of Jessica in the animated film Scooby-Doo! Camp Scare.

Other animated films Tom has voiced in include Mulan II, Kim Possible: The Secret Files, Kim Possible Movie: So The Drama, Kung Fu Panda 2, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, and the four Futurama television films: Bender's Big Score, The Beast with a Billion Backs, Bender's Game, and Into the Wild Green Yonder.

She voiced Li Li Stormstout in World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria and played Hayaku on an episode of Turbo FAST.

Personal life
Tom was previously happily married to Glenn Lau-Kee. She has since married actor Curt Kaplan in October 1999, with whom she has two sons.

title: Lauren Tom


text:
Corbelled tomb

A corbelled tomb is a generic term given to burial tombs with corbelled roofs rather than simple slabs, which generally denote an earlier type of construction.

In Europe they include the Mycenean tholos tomb type.

title: Corbelled tomb


text:
Stewart Sutherland, Baron Sutherland of Houndwood

Stewart Ross Sutherland, Baron Sutherland of Houndwood, (25 February 1941 – 29 January 2018) was a Scottish academic, public servant, and one of Britain's most distinguished philosophers of religion. He sat as a crossbencher in the House of Lords.

Education
He was educated at Robert Gordon's College. In 1963 he graduated from the University of Aberdeen with a first-class Master of Arts in Philosophy, and received a Bachelor of Arts in the Philosophy of Religion from Corpus Christi College, Cambridge in 1965.

Career
He was then appointed assistant lecturer in philosophy at the University College of North Wales, and three years later returned to Scotland as a lecturer at the University of Stirling. In Stirling, he established the Religious Studies department and recruited John Drane and the late Glyn Richards to work alongside him in this enterprise. Then in 1977 he became Professor of the History and Philosophy of Religion at King's College London, and was subsequently appointed vice-principal and principal there in 1981 and 1985 respectively.

In 1990, Sutherland became vice-chancellor of the University of London, and was appointed chief inspector of schools two years later. He succeeded this post as principal and vice-chancellor of the University of Edinburgh, in which position he served until 2002. During his principalship the university made significant advances in teaching and research, effectively implementing organisational change. He was the provost of Gresham College between 2002 and 2008. In 1992, he was elected to the British Academy, and in 1995 he became a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the same year he was knighted and became president in 2002. He served on the Higher Education Funding Council for England, and the equivalent body in Hong Kong.

Following his involvement in the establishment of the Age Concern Institute of Gerontology at King's College London, he was invited by the incoming Blair government in 1997 to chair a Royal Commission on Long-Term Care of Older People. This recommended that government (including the NHS and local authorities) should be responsible for providing free care in the spirit of the NHS Act to all people even if their illness takes the form of a chronic mental frailty. His recommendations were taken up by the devolved Scottish government, though were never implemented for England and Wales.

Philosophy
As a philosopher of religion, Sutherland had focused on how people continue to be morally responsible human beings in pluralist societies without the metaphysical security of traditional and potentially divisive systems of belief. Influenced by his intellectual mentor, Donald M. MacKinnon, Sutherland's approach has brought the clarity and rigour of the Anglo-American tradition of analytic philosophy into conversation with literary and philosophical thinkers on the European continent.

In Atheism and the Rejection of God: Contemporary Philosophy and "The Brothers Karamazov" (1977) and Faith and Ambiguity (1984), he explored continental thinkers including Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Camus and Weil. His Wilde Lectures at Oxford University – published as God, Jesus and Belief: The Legacy of Theism (1984) – explored a range of intellectual, moral and existential issues in contemporary philosophical theology, developing further his argument that Christian ethical and faith traditions continue to have an enduring value at a time when former patterns of belief have broken down. He further promoted his field of study in two influential edited volumes, The Philosophical Frontiers of Christian Theology: Essays Presented to D. M. MacKinnon (with Brian Hebblethwaite), (1982) and Religion, Reason and the Self (with T A Roberts), (1989).

In two other edited volumes, World Religions (1988), and The Study of Religion: Traditional and New Religions (with Peter Clarke), (1991), he had contributed to the increasingly significant field of religious studies in school and university curricula, while also promoting understanding and mutual respect amongst peoples of different faiths.

Achievements and honours
Sutherland was made a Knight Bachelor in 1995.

On 29 June 2001, he was created a life peer as Baron Sutherland of Houndwood, of Houndwood in the Scottish Borders, and was the following year elected to the presidency of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. In the introduction to the House of Lords ceremony, his Senior Supporter was The Lord Flowers and his Junior Supporter was The Lord Wilson of Tillyorn.

He was made a Knight of the Thistle in 2002, was the recipient of a number of honorary degrees, and continued to serve with various institutions. In 2004 he became a Fellow of Birkbeck, University of London. On 31 May 1996 he received an honorary doctorate from the Faculty of Theology at Uppsala University, Sweden.

In 2005, he became a member of the editorial board of the Encyclopædia Britannica.

Artistic recognition
A bronze bust of Lord Sutherland, by Vincent Butler, stands at the head of the stair to the Playfair Library in Old College, University of Edinburgh.


text:
Corpus Christi College

Corpus Christi College may refer to the following colleges:

 * Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, a constituent college within Cambridge University, United Kingdom
 * Corpus Christi College, Oxford, a constituent college within Oxford University, United Kingdom
 * Corpus Christi College (Vancouver), Vancouver, Canada
 * Corpus Christi College, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
 * Corpus Christi College, Perth, Western Australia
 * Corpus Christi College (Enugu State), in Achi, Enugu State, Nigeria
 * Corpus Christi College (Ekiti State), in Ilawe Ekiti, Ekiti State, Nigeria

title: Corpus Christi College


text:
Talk:Jane Fonda

Birth name Lady Jayne Seymour Fonda
According to Britannica.com, biography.com, her interview on Jimmy Kimmel, cnn fast facts. 73.84.210.208 (talk) 18:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope. She was named Jane Seymour Fonda, and her family called her Lady Jane as a nickname. The strange spelling of "Jayne" is not official. Bill Davidson wrote about this stuff in his 1990 book Jane Fonda: An Intimate Biography, and Michael Freedland said the same thing in the 1988 book Jane Fonda: A Biography. Peter Collier talked about this in the 1992 book The Fondas: A Hollywood Dynasty. Wikipedia relies more on WP:SECONDARY sources than on primary interviews. Binksternet (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * For more details, see Talk:Jane_Fonda/Archive_2 Schazjmd   (talk)  19:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

ADD primary education: Brentwood Town and Country School
"She received her primary and secondary education at the Brentwood Town and Country School in Los Angeles, CA; the Greenwich Academy in Greenwich, CT; and the Emma Willard School in Troy, NY. She attended Vassar College from 1955-1957, through her sophomore year." 2601:646:201:57F0:1A62:3BA7:6AFB:AF44 (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Brentwood Town and Country School 2601:646:201:57F0:1A62:3BA7:6AFB:AF44 (talk) 01:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Lillian Ross, Helen Ross; The Player: A Profile of an Art (interviews), Simon & Schuster, 1962.
 * https://archive.org/stream/playeraprofileof002609mbp/playeraprofileof002609mbp_djvu.txt
 * https://books.google.com/books/?id=inYgAAAACAAJ
 * 2601:646:201:57F0:1A62:3BA7:6AFB:AF44 (talk) 02:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

vogue covers
2601:646:201:57F0:1A62:3BA7:6AFB:AF44 (talk) 02:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://archive.vogue.com/issue/19590701
 * https://archive.vogue.com/issue/19600101

Hanoi rumors
In the "Visit to Hanoi" section, the final sentences of the third paragraph:

"Her visits to the POW camp led to persistent and exaggerated rumors which were repeated widely, and continued to circulate on the Internet decades later. Fonda, as well as the named POWs, have denied the rumors, and subsequent interviews with the POWs showed these allegations to be false—the persons named had never met Fonda."

Wouldn't it be helpful to state what the rumors and allegations were? 2600:1700:B280:B1C0:315A:47E7:51DA:B2D2 (talk) 10:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * We have the worst of both worlds here, we have hand-wavy statements about something, but Wikipedia also doesn't repeat gossip or libelous allegations against living people.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:09, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Since it is well-sourced, including, but not solely, by Fonda herself, I've added a brief summary of the alleged coercion by the North Vietnamese of prisoners to meet Fonda - which never happened. Fonda also was falsely accused of passing notes that prisoners had written to the Vietnamese, which also did not happen, but that's harder to integrate and is farther into the realm of rumor and libel (and has been extensively debunked).  Acroterion   (talk)   13:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jane Fonda


text:
Talk:Discography

Misc
is the bibliography really necessary?

I wonder, can we make a category of discography and put everyone's disography in it (such as Kylie Minogue's Discography for a one-point reference?

68.169.113.246 Talk to me, 68.169.113.246 My contributions 16:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with you. The bibiography is by nature highly selective and would generally be better in the individual discography articles. Only authorative overviews should be listed here imho. --kingboyk 14:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Official release
Is a discography a list of any recorded material or it covers only officialy published/released music on cd's, casettes, vinyl etc? I think its important. Can you count demos that have not been officialy published as belonging to a discography?? Dzole 11:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a general question on the time-stamp date when they are available on the original album sleeves. Why may the copyright date stamped on the record sleeve be the year before the album was released? I understand how in the 1970s, release dates for records often changed. Take the music group, Ambrosia. The band release their first album in February of 1975 according to Wikipedia, but the printed copyright date I have on the cover of the album is 1974. I know because I am looking at it!

Bigger groups could be anticipated as to the exact date something would be released and the manufacturer could compensate. But more often the release date and copyright dates are not in synch. Any ideas on ways to get clarification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beadbud5000 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Discography
I am having an issue with an agressive editor who keeps removing my work stating so called rules that I can not find. What can I do about this, the person offers no help and just deletes my work. Are B-sides permissible in a discography of singles? The Beatles discography includes them....so do many others. The point of a discography is to include ALL the original recordings of an artist? Dutchdean (talk) 14:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

More sources
I have removed below sources from the main article for the list is growing longer. --George Ho (talk) 04:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Andrews, Frank - Columbia 10" records, 1904-30. [London]: City of London Phonograph and Gramophone Society, 1985
 * Arnold, Claude Graveley - The Orchestra on Record, 1896-1926: An Encyclopedia of Orchestral Recordings Made by the Acoustical Process, Greenwood Press 1997
 * Barr, Steven C. - The (Almost) Complete 78 r.p.m. Record Dating Guide. Second ed. [Toronto, Ont.]: S.C. Barr, 1980. 51 p. Without ISBN
 * Barr, Steven C. - Canadian and Canadian-U.S. Label Numerical Correlations [of] 78 r.p.m. [disc recordings. Toronto, Ont.: S.C. Barr] 1983. 4 p. ISBN 0-9692697-0-8
 * Brooks, Tim - Little Wonder Records, The New Amberola Phonograph Company 1999
 * Connor, D. Russell and Hicks, Warren W. - BG On The Record; A bio-discography of Benny Goodman, Arlington House 1969
 * Daniels, Bill - Disc Dating Guide, 1940-1949. Oak Lawn Books, Providence, R.I., 1981
 * Dethlefson, Ronald - Edison Blue Amberol Recordings 1912-1914, (2nd Edition) Stationery X-Press 1997
 * Dixon, Robert M.W., John Godrich and Howard W. Rye - Blues & Gospel Records 1890-1943, 4th ed., Clarendon Press 1997. N.B.: An informative narrative of blues recording activity is Recording the Blues, by two of these authors, i.e. Dixon and Godrich (London: Studio Vista, 1970, 85 amply ill. p.)
 * Fagan, Ted and Moran, William - The Encyclopedic Discography of Victor Records vol. 1, Greenwood Press 1983
 * Fagan, Ted and Moran, William - The Encyclopedic Discography of Victor Records vol. 2, Greenwood Press 1986
 * Fancourt, Les and Bob McGrath - The Blues Discography 1943-1970, Eyeball Productions 2006
 * Flower, John - Moonlight Serenade; A bio-discography of the Glenn Miller civilian band, Arlington House 1972
 * Foreman, Lewis - Systematic Discography. London, C. Bingley, 1974. 144 p. N.B. This is an instructional and style manual to aid its user in mastering or improving a researcher's discographical skills. ISBN 0-85157-131-1
 * Guterman, Jimmy, and Owen O'Donnell - The Worst Rock 'n' Roll Records of All Time: a Fan's Guide to the Stuff [that] You Love to Hate! in series: Citadel Press Book[s]. New York: Carol Publishing Group, 1991. N.B.: Annotated discography. ISBN 0-8065-1231-8
 * Harrison, Max, [et al.] - Modern Jazz: the Essential Records, 1945-1970, a Critical Selection. London: Aquarius Books, 1975. 131, [9] p. N.B.: Subtitle combined from t.p. and a portion of the cover subtitle statement. This discography is annotated.
 * Jepsen, Jorgen Grunnet - Jazz Records, 1942-196x, Karl Emil Knudsen 1963-1970
 * Jones, Mark - Bristol Folk: a Discographical History of Bristol folk music in the 1960s and 1970s, Bristol Folk Publications 2009
 * Jones, Mark - The Famous Charisma Discography, The Record Press 2010
 * Jones, Mark - The Saydisc and Village Thing Discography, The Record Press 2010
 * Johnson, Richard J. - Elsie Carlisle, a discography, published privately 1994
 * Kennedy, Ted - Canada Pop Weekly: the Record [according to] "R.P.M." [magazine]. Kelowna, B.C.: Canadian Chart Research, [1992?]. 595 p.
 * Kennedy, Ted - Country Canada: the Record [according to] "R.P.M." [magazine]. Kelowna, B.C.: Canadian Chart Research, [1992?]. 437 oblong p.
 * Kennedy, Ted - Maple Music: the Record [according to] "R.P.M." [magazine]. Kelowna, B.C.: Canadian Chart Research, [1992]. 572, [16] oblong p. N.B.: "'Maple Music' is [primarily]a listing of every song to enter the national top 40 pop record charts in North America with primary analysis on Canadian charts from 'R.P.M.' [magazine] and 'The Record'."
 * Kiner, Larry F. - The Al Jolson Discography, Greenwood Press 1983
 * Koenigsberg, Allen - Edison Cylinder Records 1889-1912, (2nd Edition) APM Press 1987
 * Laird, Ross - Tantalizing Tingles A Discography of Early Ragtime, Jazz, and Novelty Syncopated Piano Recordings, 1889-1934, Greenwood Press 1995
 * Laird, Ross - Moanin'Low; A discography of female popular vocal recordings 1920-1933, Greenwood Press 1996
 * Laird, Ross - Brunswick records: a discography of recordings, 1916-1931, Greenwood Press, 2001.
 * Laird, Ross & Rust, Brian - Discography of OKeh Records, 1918-1934. By Ross Laird and Brian Rust. Praeger, 2004
 * Legere, Bill - Record Collectors Guide of Country LPs. Limited ed. Mississauga, Ont.: W.J. Legere, 1977. 269, 25, 29, 2 p., perforated and looseleaf. Without ISBN
 * Legere, Bill - E[lectrical] T[anscription]s: Transcription Library of Bill Legere. Mississauga, Ont.: B. Legere, [1977]. 3 vols., each of which is perforated and looseleaf. N.B.: Vol. 1-2, Country Artists -- vol. 2, Pop Artists. Without ISBN
 * Lyttle, Brendan - A Chartology of Canadian Popular Music, Part Two, 1977 to 1980. Record Research Services, Calgary, [1980?]
 * Millar, Jack - Discography of Billie Holiday to 1999, Fine and Mellow published 1998 by The Billie Holiday Publishers
 * Moses, Julian Morton - American Celebrity Recordings 1900-1925, Monarch Record Enterprises, 1993
 * Ruppli, Michel - Atlantic Records, Greenwood Press 1979
 * Ruppli, Michel - The Savoy Labels, Greenwood Press 1980
 * Ruppli, Michel & Porter, Bob - The Prestige Label, Greenwood Press 1980
 * Ruppli, Michel - The Chess Labels, Greenwood Press 1983
 * Ruppli, Michel - The King Labels, Greenwood Press 1985
 * Ruppli, Michel - The Clef/Verve Labels, Greenwood Press 1986
 * Ruppli, Michel - The Aladdin/Imperial Labels, Greenwood Press 1991
 * Ruppli, Michel & Novitsky, Ed - The Mercury Labels, Greenwood Press 1993
 * Ruppli, Michel - The Decca Labels, Greenwood Press 1996
 * Ruppli, Michel & Novitsky, Ed - The MGM Labels, Greenwood Press 1998
 * Ruppli, Michel, Daniels, Bill & Novitsky, Ed - The Capitol Label Discography, Names & Numbers, 2007
 * Russell, Tony - Country Music Records; A discography, 1921-1942, Oxford University Press, 2004
 * Rust, Brian - The Victor Master Book Vol. 2, published by the author, 1969
 * Rust, Brian - The American Dance Band Discography, Arlington House 1975
 * Rust, Brian - London Musical Shows On Record 1897 - 1976, General Gramophone Publications 1977
 * Rust, Brian - British Music Hall On Record, General Gramophone Publications 1979
 * Rust, Brian and Forbes, Sandy - British Dance Bands On Record 1911 to 1945, General Gramophone Publications 1987
 * Rust, Brian and Debus, Allen G. - The Complete Entertainment Discography from 1897 to 1942, (2nd Edition) Da Capo Press 1989
 * Rust, Brian & Brooks, Tim - The Columbia Master Book Discography, Greenwood Press, 1999.
 * Rust, Brian - Jazz and Ragtime Records (1897 - 1942), (6th Edition) Mainspring Press 2003
 * Smith, Russell & Burgis, Peter - Peter Dawson; The world's most popular baritone (with complete song title discography), Currency Press 2001
 * Sutton, Allan - Cakewalks, Rags and Novelties; The International Ragtime Discography (1894 - 1930), Mainspring Press 2004
 * Sutton, Allan - Cakewalks, Rags and Novelties; The International Ragtime Discography (1894 - 1930), Mainspring Press 2004

Videography
The final paragraph of the first section has this: "A compilation of an artist's music videos or video releases can be referred to as a "videography."   The source cited only refers to the rest of the paragraph, which is about rollography.

Videography does not mean a compilation. It's the actual process of capturing or photographing video, and that's confirmed not only by all online references to the word, but also by WP Videography.

I've therefore removed the above sentence.Twistlethrop (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Credible Info
Can anyone provide me with an article from any credible source that show's Beyoncé's record sales between 200-250 million records? Some of her stats has been updated by the RIAA and that moved her total certified sales from 112 million to 216 million on the main Wiki page. We need the source for her sales to be updated there from 120 million. 190.80.12.213 (talk) 17:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Discography Links to Outside Wikipedia
Should we have links to outside Wikipedia in discography lists? I'm not talking about outside reference lists, I'm talking about the Discography itself where some artist links go to Wikipedia album pages and some (in the same list) go to outside sites (with advertisements). Shouldn't all of these links go to bona fide Wikipedia pages, rather than to uncontrolled outside sites? PersonPlaceOrThing (talk) 04:43, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Discography


text:
Hawk GT

Hawk GT may refer to:
 * Honda NT650, Honda HawkGT NT650 -- a motorcycle built by Honda
 * Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk, The Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk (or GT Hawk), a sporty coupe sold between 1962 and 1964

title: Hawk GT