text:
Talk:Ulcerative colitis

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2019 and 15 November 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ML6484, Vsiemion, Gaffneybrennan9, Tdownie53.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Folic Acid deficiency
Is there a source for the need for a folic acid supplement with sulfasalazine? M dorothy

sulfate reducing bacteria in the gut?
naturally! people take sulfasalazine tablets don't they 1.155.227.101 (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It's a while since i used a Wiki: when i had UC more than 20 years ago as part of my cure i was advised to avoid abrasive foods such as 'grain' breads; oats; siliceous greens, etc. My gut took around 9 months to recover to good as new when i followed this advice (in addition to having neutralised repressed anger and grief plus removed a specific and associated unconscious belief from childhood). I had UC for 20 years; there was an approx. 18 year delay between the psychological conditioning in primary school and the physical sequel of UC. I shall not repeat myself if this is deleted: the answer is in psychoneuroimmunology. I am now 66 y.o.

I am well aware of the personal challenge in facing oneself and what is in the so-called unconscious mind (refer Greek myths and in particular Joseph Campbell's the hero with a thousand faces), but if i can do it so can others.

Regads 123.208.107.182 (talk) 06:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * UC is not caused by psychiatric factors - stress can IRRITATE it, but it is not the cause. UC can spontaneously just go away in about a quarter of the cases.  Many people follow all dietary restrictions and continue to go downhill and need surgery eventually.HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Someone entirely different here, but thanks for the above, 123.208.107.182. I was recently diagnosed with it at 21 and it's kind of annoying it fades in and out of remission. I had a strong thought it might very well be dietary, but interestingly, it only first happened once I drank in excess of 2L of diet pepsi a day over a summer. Obviously I don't touch colas nearly as much now (maybe twice a week), but I can't help but think the aspartame or some other ingredient in high doses at least contributed to it. 184.151.63.189 (talk) 20:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Nah. While the cause of UC is not known, there is an undeniable genetic portion to the disease. Why it happens or triggers the first flare-up is unknown, but drinking a Pepsi didn't do this to you - it would have happened anyway.  Most often, the disease seems to trigger after a mild infection of some type (such as a headcold) and the body's immune system fails to "turn off" and begins attacking healthy tissue. That's why the Talk Pages need to be restricted to the discussion of Reliable Sources, rather than a forum for the discussion of the general subject, because it is unproductive for the project. HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

2011 review in NEJM
-- Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Steroids increase risk of bowel perforation!
There is mentioned that particularly in elderly patients there is an increased risk of bowel perforation after steroid intake[ref: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/195537-overview#showall ]. And, of course, steroids mask simptoms of acute abdomen, so it could be deleterious to use steroids in patients with risk of perforation because of missing the perforation.

But i couldn't find anything worth that would explain the mechanism how steroids induce bowel perforation in ulcerative colitis. Please help! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vldscore (talk • contribs) 18:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Research
The section had a citation required since Jan 2012. I have removed the citation required tag after providing appropriate reference.  D ip ta ns hu Talk 15:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Added citation for "Sulfasalazine has been a major agent in the therapy of mild to moderate UC for over 50 years. In 1977, Mastan S. Kalsi et al. determined that 5-aminosalicylic acid (5-ASA and mesalazine) was the therapeutically active in sulfasalazine." George Bounacos (talk) 23:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

New reviews
2013 BMJ

2012 BMJ

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:25, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Take a deep breath - smoking helps with colitis, and so does hydrocodene!
I have suffered off and on with UC for more than 30 years. Numerous colonoscopies, every test available to determine whether it was UC or Crohn's. All tests came back non specific Crohn's-colitis. The only determining factor that identified it as UC is that over the years I have found that smoking cigarrettes tends to bring the disease into remission, and when I have told my doctors that, they at first have asked me not to quote them, lol, but history has shown that smoking will help with UC and yet with Crohn's it actually worsens the condition. I have tried every drug available to man, sulphur drugs, prednisone, imuran, remicaid (I think that is what it was called - $10k a dose if I recall! None had any effect in bringing the condition into remission. Three times I have been hospitalized because the condition was so bad, one time for 30 days - after which I was no closer to remission than on day one, but without real food for a month, considerably lighter. My wife noticed a common denominator prior to my hospitalization - I had quit smoking. I read another post that UC is in many cases caused by something in the mind. I believe that to be true in my case. Although I may not appear anxious, nervous or depressed, I have always been what my parents called "a worrier". I do give a lot of thought to how I perform my job and I have held some very stressful positions, and I suppose I do overthink the future, detail etc. don't think I can change my make up though, it's the way I am, and I suppose it must be a great contributing factor as to why I suffer with UC. I am intrigued though with how smoking helps and why a healthy substitute cannot be developed based on that fact? Gum, nicorette, fake cigs, even pot do not help at all. I even tried writing to Phillip Morris to see if they would study it! but never got a reply - you would think they would jump at the chance to put a positive spin on such a killer habit. In the past 4 months, I once again quit smoking, having been free from any symptoms for close to 2 years (smoking during that time since the day I left the hospital - which by the way was the day my symptoms started to go away). In the past when I quit, I jotted down the worsening of my symptoms, little worsening the first week, gradually progressing to full blown at around 6 weeks. I would then normally pick up a cigarette and within hours feel better and within days the symptoms would be pretty much gone. This last time though, my doctor had me on a tapering dose of prednisone, from 40mg all the way down to 5mg. Although symptoms had improved, I still had active UC even though I had started smoking again. Here is the kicker - I had some foot pain last week and have been taking Hydrocodene otherwise know as Lortabs I think. It is like a miracle cure! All symptoms have completely disappeared. Foot is still aching, but heh, I'll take what relief I can get. I actually ran out of the pills and will not be taking anymore due to the addictive nature of the drug, but I felt compelled to share this story in hopes that others out there may know the answers as to why they help me, others still may find that these products may help them also. I know how desperate one becomes when UC is active, the panic to get to a bathroom, the panic never to be far from a bathroom, the need to know where every bathroom in a city is located etc. I also know the embarrassment of having to take relief when no bathroom is available, not pleasant. Please reply to this post if any of it rings true to your situation. Good luck. Atkinsx (talk) 00:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The Wike TP's are not for the discussion of a personal experience or a forum. Please only post if you have a Reliable Source to improve the quality of the article.  I am asking an Administrator to "hat" this post, please? HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Under "Alternative Medicine" I think SAMe was intended in place of S-Methyl Methionine
S-Adenosyl methionine notes "SAMe has been studied in the treatment of osteoarthritis. SAMe reduces the pain associated with osteoarthritis. Although an optimal dose has yet to be determined, SAMe appears as effective as the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs". Shjacks45 (talk) 10:26, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Under "Alternative Medicine" and Causes
Omega-3 fatty acids contribute to digestive system health. You haven't figured out why 5-ASA are, but NSAIDs are not, used therapeutically (yet the target inflamation)? Same reason NSAIDs promote stomach ulcers, they inhibit prostaglandins that are protective of the stomach lining as well as the rest of digestive system lining. Long term high dose use has been implicated in promoting IBD. Shjacks45 (talk) 10:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * And your reference for your statement (title and page number) is what, exactly? HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

×==Bacterial recolonisation part==

This part has problems, the fecal recolonisation part. I removed sentence, as it is PPOV and suggesting self medication "In the United States it can be difficult to find doctors who perform this procedure so some patients have performed the procedure at home using a protocol outlined in a published study." And the protocol is included, so, we have here "try it at home situation." First, doctors don't perform it as is it not approved treatment, not even far in development. Second, there were only tiny samples in experiments: 6 people, 10 children, and results were mixed. Third; so far results are mixed.In one study there was 67% remission, in other one was only 32% response (a little bit bellow placebo effect). Fourth: There are not even larger double blind studies,so, it can't be said it is even a method in development, more like case studies than a full blown research. Fecal recolonisation was tried in small samples on patients with various illnesses, among them patients autoimmune diseases, including UC andCrohn's dissease..Even autism was included in trials, and so far doesn't look that his method is very promising, according to paper from 2014, about this treatment and UC.I don't even know why this part (fecal recolonisation) is included in the body of the article, as there are not numerous studies like is the case with probiotics, but only so few with so tiny samples. Case studies abound in medicine, and if we were to include them in wikipedia articles, we could have very long articles.Why not to focus on larger, double blind studies, they are more advanced. I would say this part fits more into diarrhea section, as three are more studies regarding this treatment in various types of diarrhea, and those were very succesful. As you see from this source, fecal bacterial transplant was used as support in probiotic recolonisation, quoting the article "The intestinal ecosystem of each individual patient reacted very differently to the fecal transplantation. Intestinal bacteria of the donors were detected in the patients, but at different times and in different frequencies." Bialosz (talk) 11:32, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Pathophysiology - hydrogen sulfide not detrimental -> section needs revision
The upshot of the current text is that hydrogen sulfide is detrimental. Both articles cited are over 15 years old. Newer references exist that reverse the detrimental view of H2S. Furthermore, a role in future therapeutics is being investigated. I propose updating this section. Any thoughts among the watchers of UC? Thanks in advance for your input. McortNGHH (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The cause of Ulcerative Colitis
19:41, 24 June 2016 (UTC)Jay Pravda MD MPH (talk)The evidence suggests that colonic inflammation in ulcerative colitis develops as a result of excess colonic epithelial hydrogen peroxide that diffuses (leaks) out of epithelial cells and oxidizes (damages) tight junctional proteins. This increases mucosal permeability to luminal bacterial antigens that gain access to the normally sterile submucosal tissues, which initiates a neutrophilic inflammation characteristic of this disease (1).

There is sufficient experimental data to substantiate further studies to verify if this mechanism of disease is indeed operative in ulcerative colitis (2, 3). I strongly encourage research institutions that have an interest in curing ulcerative colitis to fund the necessary studies in order to determine if this mechanism of disease is indeed the cause of ulcerative colitis.

The sooner we know the truth, the closer we get to the cure.

1. Radical induction theory of ulcerative colitis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305621/

2. Impairment of mitochondrial acetoacetyl CoA thiolase activity in the colonic mucosa of patients with ulcerative colitis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095666/

3. Differential immune and genetic responses in rat models of Crohn's colitis and ulcerative colitis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025515/

Jay Pravda MD MPH

Lancet
10.1016/S0140-6736(16)32126-2 JFW | T@lk  09:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Frequency and deaths
This edit from an ip (Removed frequency and deaths as they give info for Chron's disease which is NOT ulcerative colitis - therefore irrelevant) was reverted. I agree with the ip.

The same has happened with the Crohn's disease page.

In my opinion, it is very confusing. Keep in mind that it is intended for the general public, of all intellectual levels. What does the reader have to understand? That these are deaths and frequency of people who have both ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease? Or that are people who only have Crohn's disease? And where...?

I would leave these figures only on the IBD page. Here it is not informative, just the opposite. If we do not have specific figures, we do not have specific figures.

As I have said more times, attempts to simplify sometimes confuse rather than help. And that is worrisome. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk)  10:06, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This is not data just for Crohn's disease but data for CD and UC together. IMO they are useful both here and the IBD page. If we have data for just CD by itself than sure. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:24, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Do we apply the same criteria here as in Crohn's disease?  --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂  (Talk)  23:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In addition, the figure is wrong, not 112 million but 11.2 million (see table 2 "11 223·5 thousands". --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂  (Talk)  23:27, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes agree the figure is wrong and fixed it. Do you have figures for just UC? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 16:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Can someone give a precise citation for this figure (page or table number)? SarahSV (talk) 17:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not understand why you have reinserted this data . It is very confusing and readers do not understand it. I will not repeat what I said above, but please, can you re-evaluate it putting yourself in the mind of a lay person who does not know what inflammatory bowel disease is, or what diseases it covers, why is Crohn's disease mentioned here ...?
 * I already added the data in inflammatory bowel disease and fixed the incorrect figure and IMO that is enough. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂  (Talk)  18:20, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Because this is the data we have. If you have data for UC by itself we can use it. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This Lancet paper 22001864, page 1488, is unclear and needs explanation -- not easy in the Infobox. I suggest we drop the global combined IBD figure (very much an estimate) from the UC article and see if we can find another ref.Jrfw51 (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This one PMID 29050646 "Worldwide incidence and prevalence of inflammatory bowel disease in the 21st century: a systematic review of population-based studies" (Lancet, December 2018) contains separate data with graphics and tables. I can send you the pdf --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk)  18:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That looks to be good for prevalence but global mortality data are not very relevant as SMR are only slightly increased and variable. 25185685 Overall UC Highest risk estimate. HR, 1.25 (95% CI, 1.22–1.28); Lowest estimate, Pooled SMR, 1.1 (95% CI, 0.9–1.2).  Jrfw51 (talk) 18:55, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Which details about UC are you thinking we should use? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 09:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I would drop the Deaths data from the Infobox. Jrfw51 (talk) 10:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Do we have details on the death rate for UC alone? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 06:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Can this be useful? PMID 25071340 Epidemiology, demographic characteristics and prognostic predictors of ulcerative colitis: "In meta-analyses of population-based cohort studies reported by Jess et al, five of 10 studies reported on UC-related mortality. The authors reported that among patients with UC, the mean percentage of deaths ascribed to UC itself was 17% (range 11% to 30%)." --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk)  22:50, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Lectin
Can have an ulcerative affect on the colon wall according to some sources Wikipietime (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Having an ulcerative effect on the colonic mucosa is very different than ulcerative colitis. Many factors can lead to ulcers in the colon (lack of blood flow, constipation, etc), which have nothing to do with ulcerative colitis. However, if there is good quality evidence that lectin may contribute to the development of ulcerative colitis, I encourage you to add this content to the article, with references.  Rytyho usa (talk) 01:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"maintaining a high-calorie diet"
The article says "Dietary changes, such as maintaining a high-calorie diet or lactose-free diet, may improve symptoms.", but the reference doesn't seem to support this. Rather a linked page from the reference says "Ulcerative colitis symptoms may cause some people to lose their appetite and eat less, and they may not get enough nutrients.". While it may be true that a lactose-free diet (with appropriate supplementation) may reduce symptoms, aggravation, or onset of the condition (probably through microbiome related complex dynamics), it seems that the claim of a high calorie diet being helpful isn't backed obviously by the reference. The claim about dairy should probably be refined, but right now I suggest that the claim about high-calorie diet be dropped or be refined or qualified with peer reviewed research / a more obvious reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thefreeencyclopedia1 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

 * I just read the source and couldn’t find a reference to either the dairy part or the high calories. 78.152.205.15 (talk) 07:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: WikiProject Medicine Fall 2022 UCF COM
— Assignment last updated by DrDexterN (talk) 20:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Work Plan
Hello, I am a fourth-year medical student from the University of Central Florida, and I am enrolled in a WikiProject course. I have chosen this article and plan to edit it by changing wording and structure of some sentences that may be misleading or may use medical jargon. I plan to explain the meaning of various terms that would not be well known to most viewers (ex. Skip lesions, ileus, biologics etc.). The article seems to have most citations in place, but there are a few areas that indicate a need for citations. I hope to add references for those areas.

I also hope to add more information in the “Differential diagnosis” section of the article, as many of the diagnoses listed include vague descriptions. Additionally, I will update the information regarding medications and their side effects.

I would be happy to take any suggestions for changes as well! Rasika ucf (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Fall 2022 UCF COM, Peer Review
I learned so much from reading this article, especially from your contributions. Overall, I think your contributions were relevant, concise (which is not easy to do), important, and necessary additions to the article. From reading through your work plan, you achieved everything you hoped to accomplish. The information added is also understandable to the intended WP audience.

Great job editing and changing the wording and structure of sentences that were misleading or used medical jargon. A specific example of this was when you concisely defined “systemic signs of toxicity,” as “fever, chills, weight changes.” Contributions such as these are important for the understanding of the average reader.

I found it helpful that you explained the meaning of various terms that would not be well-known to most viewers, such as toxic megacolon.

I appreciate how many references you contributed to the article (13!). I think your inclusion of quality secondary sources really takes this article to the next level, especially for viewers who may be interested in further reading on the topic.

I enjoyed reading and learning from your additions on primary sclerosing cholangitis, pyoderma gangrenosum, anemia, and hidradenitis suppurativa - it was well-done, concise, and packed with an informative punch accessible to the layperson! Your large addition to the imaging section really improved that portion of the article, which was very trim before.

You went above and beyond to meet your goal of expanding the differential diagnoses section. Thank you for explaining how to distinguish Crohn's disease, infectious colitis, other forms of colitis, and graft versus host disease from ulcerative colitis.

I spot-checked the links and they are all working! The article flows understandably and meets readability guidelines (no sentences longer than 26 words). You made use of periods and few commas or semicolons.

A suggestion for improvement could include adding more of the wiki links to different terms in the article such as: anal fissures, abscess, and infectious colitis.

Medabloom (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

 * Thank you so much for your feedback! I really appreciate your help and will definitely try to incorporate some more wikilinks! Rasika ucf (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The Mayo Endoscopic Score should be mentioned somewhere in the article
As the title states, the Mayo Endoscopic Score should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Either under the Endoscopic subheading under the Diagnosis section and/or under the Progression/Remission subheading under the Prognosis section. After all MES is the common endoscopic index recommended in guidelines and considered a quality indicator, and widely used in clinical trials and clinical practice. Instantwatym (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ulcerative colitis


text:
Wikipedia talk:List of articles with Python programs

For a September 2004 deletion debate over this page see Votes for deletion/List of articles with Python programs

Hmm, I also have: User:Kim_Bruning/colorspace.py. It's used for RGB, HSV, CMYK, and all of.

It's not in the man namespace at the moment yet, and/so I'm not sure what to do with it at the moment. Any suggestions? Kim Bruning 09:32, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

removal
The article on Bubble Sort no longer contains a Python implementation, so I removed it from the list.-- CSumit '  Talk '' 11:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Book of the Bee

The Book of the Bee is a historiographic and theological compilation, containing numerous Biblical stories. It was written around 1222, by Solomon of Akhlat, who was Bishop of Basra, within the Church of the East. It is written in the Syriac language.

The book is a collection of theological and historical texts and consists of 55 chapters discussing various topics including the creation, heaven and earth, the angels, darkness, paradise, Old Testament patriarchs, New Testament events, lists of kings and patriarchs, and the final day of resurrection. The book was very popular among local Christian communities, and it was transmitted up to the 19th century.

The author, Solomon of Akhlat, was a bishop of the Church of the East during the first half of the 13th century. He was a diocesan bishop of Basra, now in Iraq, and was present at the consecration of the Patriarch of the Church of the East, Sabrisho IV, in 1222. He dedicated the book to his friend, bishop Narsai of Beth Waziq.

The book was written in Syriac, a literary form of Eastern Middle Aramaic, and it was also translated into Arabic. The author held his native Syriac language in high regard and adopted the notion of some older authors that it was the oldest language.

The book was translated into Latin and published in 1866, by Joseph Schönfelder (d. 1913). In 1886, Syriac text was published with English translation, by British orientalist Ernest A. Wallis Budge (d. 1934).

title: Book of the Bee


text:
Talk:Shaolin Monastery

Wooden dummies
I'm surprised there's nothing on famous Wooden Dummy labyrinth of Shaolin in this article. It's pretty famous and worth noticing, either as historical fact or just popular modern times myth. I don't know which one is true :) p.s. not sure how is it called in English --78.62.150.245 (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

 * The dummies you are thinking about did comprise a labrynth, but they were just like the dummies used all over China in Wing Chun and other arts. Except that in Shao-lin there were 108 of them in rows facing each other.

 * Lots of cool legendary stuff about Shao-lin is unsourced. Even in China much of it is seen as legend. For example, the more obvious omission from here is Ta Lin, the "Great Forest" which is the burial place of all previous masters--that is a real place and is even seen in certain films.

 * The Pool of Nine Dragons is also confirmed as a place of practice and purification. Without original Shao-lin historical sources, those cannot really be cited either. There are so many more stories that are legends.75.21.155.253 (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

 * i'll gradually add the Talin and the dragons pool to the article. SHemmati10 (talk) 16:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Shaolin temple have not had such dummies. those kinds of dummies and tools are used mostly in the southern provinces of China and have no relevance to Shaolin temple. however, the name Shaolin is used somehow randomly as a brand name for many temples in southern and northern China. many of these temples use dummies. SHemmati10 (talk) 5:35 pm, Today (UTC+1)

Shao-lin Ssu
Could we at least open a discussion here as to why "Shao-lin Ssu" cannot be included in the transliteration? You are making a mere point of view if you think people only say it as "si". In the dialect they speak up there, where it counts, it is pronounced "Ssu". The "si" you mention is Cantonese speech--and by the way, if you choose to transliterate with "si" you must also put "Siu-lum", which is the way those dialects pronounce it. Otherwise you are simply putting a wrong transliteration.

Also, could the editor interefering with grammatical improvements make a better argument than "it was OK as it was"?76.195.82.230 (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You are confusing pronunciation with orthography, and your edit was reverted because you incorrectly claimed "ssu" to be pinyin and altered the valid pinyin romanization. Also, take care not to mix Cantonese and Mandarin together as you did with the Cantonese addition,. Ergative rlt (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid Ergative is correct. Please see this dictionary entry. Notice the provided Cantonese equivalents in the right hand corner. Ssu is the older Wade-Giles representation of sì, which is Pinyin. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Shao-lin Ssu
Could we at least open a discussion here as to why "Shao-lin Ssu" cannot be included in the transliteration? You are making a mere point of view if you think people only say it as "si". In the dialect they speak up there, where it counts, it is pronounced "Ssu". The "si" you mention is Cantonese speech--and by the way, if you choose to transliterate with "si" you must also put "Siu-lum", which is the way those dialects pronounce it. Otherwise you are simply putting a wrong transliteration.

Also, could the editor interefering with grammatical improvements make a better argument than "it was OK as it was"?76.195.82.230 (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You are confusing pronunciation with orthography, and your edit was reverted because you incorrectly claimed "ssu" to be pinyin and altered the valid pinyin romanization. Also, take care not to mix Cantonese and Mandarin together as you did with the Cantonese addition,. Ergative rlt (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid Ergative is correct. Please see this dictionary entry. Notice the provided Cantonese equivalents in the right hand corner. Ssu is the older Wade-Giles representation of sì, which is Pinyin. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Meat Eating
"During the Tang Dynasty, Emperor Taizong granted the Shaolin Temple extra land and special "imperial dispensation" to eat meat and drink, making Shaolin the only Buddhist temple in China that's not dry, although this practice is ceased today.[12]" Professor Shahar does not corroborate the above paragraph, in page 46 of The Shaolin Monastery History, Religion and The Martial Arts one can read: "...it is hard to know weather this novel approach to carnivorousness preceded the movie or originated with it". Also in the Shaolin Monatery Stele on Mount Song by Tonami Mamoru, there is not mentioned of Li Shimin granting permission to eat meat; the rewards as translated by Mamoru are: "forty qing of lands and one watermill" pages 17-18, 35. Not every book out there is a reliable source, I sugest to remove or modify the paragraph. (talk) 21:51, 27 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.39.126 (talk)

Shi Yongxin Fojia
Abbot Shi Yongxin has no clearly cited or sourced list of ancestry, therefore I have removed the name of the Shao-lin abbot who preceded him. In fact there is no clear statement about who served as abbot before Shi Yongxin Fojia. I myself have seen at least three "Shao-lin abbots" AT THE SAME TIME, all immediately preceding Shi Yongxin Fojia.

Because of the Communist iron grip in China, I do not trust any lineages or Shi Yongxin for that matter, but I will keep that to myself. You need to clarify this Communist repression and scheming in the section on Shao-lin's recent history. You do not mention the fleeing of Shao-lin priests to Taiwan, India, Hong Kong and America, for example - all AMPLY documented.

By the way, I do not require lectures about confusing Mandarin and Cantonese. It is this article that needs to be careful to be more consistent with the romanization systems. Sometimes Wade-Giles is used in place of Pinyin, and sometimes that is preferable!75.21.105.12 (talk) 11:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

 * So fix it yourself. Nothing is holding you back from making edits. Just make sure you leave any personal biases off to the side, and present reliable sources. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:37, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sage advice to the original post; but I can't see that IP had any "personal biases".-- Djathinkimacowboy what now?! 17:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

 * I was referring to his emotionally charged statements concerning Communism (e.g., its "iron grip in China") and its supposed negative effects on later Shaolin history. I just wanted to make sure that he provided verifiable references on the subject, as opposed to his opinion. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Matthew Polly and Gene Ching have a lot to say in support of this CCP "iron grip", I think. Agreed, it must not be emotional or POV, but as I say, lots of citable material does support the general view.-- Djathinkimacowboy what now?! 13:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Found some intresting refs
Hi I go around fixing orphans articles, durning my ref searching for Hungarian_Shaolin_Temple I found these links and they seem to be about this article str monks and the last one I'm not sure if it is the Chinese or the hungarian. Please take a look and let me know. Blackash  have a chat  04:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Founding myths of Kung Fu
There's an interesting discussion of these in Martial Arts as Embodied Knowledge: Asian Traditions in a Transnational World, State University of New York,. Dougweller (talk) 15:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Problems concerning current grandmaster Shi Yongxin & the temple
Besides the stories about embezzlement and having children with 2 prostitutes, there's the whole story of his more or less making a business of the temple, leading to him being referred to as the CEO monk. Eg "In February he announced plans for Shaolin to build a $297m (£190m) complex in Australia that would include a temple, a hotel, a kung fu academy and a golf course."[]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/chinas-famous-shaolin-kung-fu-temple-rocked-by-sex-and-embezzlement-scandal-10436369.html] "It could be a sticky end for the monk who has angered some in China by his ruthless commercialization of Shaolin, the birthplace of Chinese martial arts and Zen Buddhism, by renting it out for reality TV shows and computer games among other things..

and, which has led him to be dubbed the "CEO monk",  recent scandals.   Doug Weller (talk) 15:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Society sets itself up for this kind of thing. There is a point they are trying to make, which we can't seem to get any other way. When the Tibetans came to vermont they went for alcohol in a big way. The acolytes had to go and buy booze so the monks could whoop it up. No one else was allowed in. I have a report about one of the lecturers. He stood up tall in yellow robes and started in on a Buddhist lecture. Then he started to hawk and spit. He bent over and farted. Then his voice broke and started to beg forgiveness for his age. Another great teacher used to have his students sitting there in asanas under great discipline supposedly meditating. Then he would get up, take out a squirt gun, and start squirting everyone. What's the message, Doug? When he died the sky was full of real rainbows. Everyone said, aw, the monks have thrown something into the air to create rainbows. Who's deluding whom? I suppose we could declare pompously, "what came ye into the wilderness to see?" I don't even want to get started on the other religions. We hear about money-laundering, philandering in a big way, use of monastic facilities for screaming torture while the monks sing hymns.Botteville (talk) 04:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

New academic source
The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts By Meir Shahar. Looks extremely useful. Doug Weller (talk) 18:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

relative age

 * Dating back 1,500 years when founded by Fang Lu-Hao ...

Is this a mistranslation? Some institutions have been called "ancient" by their founders ... —Tamfang (talk) 06:32, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

finger-punching tree ...no
no ...it makes no sense ...it wouldn't look like that ...just rubbish — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.215.149 (talk) 00:50, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You got to remember a large part of this is showmanship, magician stuff. They got it from Sanskrit, which has, for example, meditational exercises to levitate, walk on water, dematerialize, and the like. Not that there is not a true side of Buddhism. You put your credibility down and take what you bought for better or for worse. We can only present what someone else says, true or false.Botteville (talk) 00:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

propaganda alert
the shaolin temple was the last remaining stronghold of the ming dynasty. it was repeatedly attacked by the qing, who failed until they finally burnt it down from the inside with help from spies around 1666. during these ming-qing wars, shaolin was at its biggest & strongest. it was burnt to a crisp and never restored since, just as china has never been chinese-governed since. the qing banned martial arts and have always despised everything about shaolin and its culture. they made a mockery of it by turning it into a gymnastic tourist attraction with no real martial technique only showy stuff.

this has all been ignored and the impression is given to the contrary - this article makes it look like nothing of significance happened in the 1600s ming era, and makes it look like the 1700s qing only loved the shaolin. utter propaganda. people in china would speak about it today, but they'd be killed for it, hence why it takes a well informed westerner like me to say it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:E209:E701:E1BD:E09C:91F9:5AF8 (talk) 18:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This appears to be two paragraphs of personal opinion. In order to use it you would have to cite who had these opinions, and it can't be you. However, I doubt if there is room for a section such as this. The article just can't cover everything, which is why you are not seeing this and not seeing that. Think you might try some editing? Its tough but it has rewards.Botteville (talk) 00:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

oriental monk stereotype
Hello everyone, I just wanted to introduce myself, I am a student that will be editing this page for a class project. I will be using scholarly books, encyclopedias, and perhaps an article or two. For my project, I will be creating a new section, and writing about the oriental warrior monk trope. I plan on finding out how the Shaolin obtained this image, and also the real Shaolin and the knowledge they have to contribute to the world. SChapter (talk) 15:21, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, welcome to Wikipedia, as well as this particular page. Your contributions will no doubt add a much-needed perspective on the topic. As you begin to contribute to the article, please make sure to familiarize yourself with WP:No original research in order to avoid some common pitfalls we all fall prey to. Happy editing! Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 16:41, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you have a very interesting subject to talk about and you are using a lot of different sources for that which will definitely make this page more valuable. Your oriental warrior monk trope part will add a lot of important information along with the other parts. I would suggest that you divide them into different parts so that it's easier for the reader to follow and understand. Other than that I think your have a solid plan for you page. SoloMunn (talk) 04:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Welcome to WP. I have to add some realistic cautions, however, which may save you some time and trouble. First, this is not a scholarly site. WP does not welcome original research. You can only do what someone else has already done, and you must cite those persons. Granted there is often a fuzzy line between presentation and research. But, if you have a unique point of view, some new insights, putting it here is like casting the proverbial pearls, especially after the attacks begin, and make no mistake, they will begin. So, you need a thick skin if you are going to persist. My co-editors above are being somewhat over-sanguine. Second, this would not be your page and your work as my co-editors suggest. Once you press return you give it to WP. Anyone thereafter can do anything they wish with it whether you like it or not, provided they are careful to follow the editing policy. You might write what you think is an especially fine sentence, and it might be, but someone is sure to hack it right out because you gave no reference for it. Writing for WP takes a lot of patience with no guarantee that anything you write will last very long. You might want to consider some other vehicle. I've seen some pretty fine writers throw up their hands in disgust here. On the other hand, some really useful material has survived. Ciao.Botteville (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Asian Religions in America
— Assignment last updated by Ziegenbalg66 (talk) 00:35, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Request for consensus
The infobox chosen for this article is infobox religious building, which implies Buddhism is a religion, and religions, I think you will agree, believe in God. There is a parameter in the box, | deity=. On attempting to fill this in I was squelched - the material deleted with some sarcastic comment. I will not state the editor. This editor could do this because I did not give a reference. The immediate reply to this sort of behavior rudely undiscussed is to find a reference on the Buddhist god. But, there are all sorts of questions, such as, is Buddha God? Is Buddhism a religion? To what do all these names the Buddhists have refer? You might think this is trivial but not so. Some very religious people of different religions deny God ("God is dead") meaning they deny any concept of God, as God is above conceptualization. Zen gives the appearance of such a view, and a physical event called "enlightenment" seems to answer all the questions. Now, here's the problem. We have presented Buddhism as a religion. We see monks showing all kinds of reverence but to this or that deity and especially before statues. However, we never hear what they are reverencing. In short, what shall we put in the "| deity" space? Shall we say god? Shall we list some of the deities Buddhists seem to worship? I'm a Christian myself. In the interest of objectivity I would like you to inform me what I should put for deity. If we cannot get a consensus I will look it up in the best ref I can find and put what they say in. Then you can go through the "referenced material" discussion. I don't need you mistaking your own arrogance and condescension for mine, as one editor did. Go:Botteville (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Buddhism and God at Shaolin Monastery
Hello there, my WP friend. I expected a move such as yours on the article, and indeed you said about what I expected the deleter to say. No argument with that; in fact, no argument I believe is the watchword. That leaves us, however, with a practical problem. Buddhism is cast as a religion on WP. Someone chose this box on that account. Religion of what? Shall we say here whether Buddhists believe in God? What do they believe in? Nothing? Do help us out with this problem, will you? Is Buddhism a religion? Do they believe in God? Tell us, the whole world is waiting to here. Ciao.Botteville (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi @Botteville, I would like to be able to engage in an open and honest discussion with you on this, or any other topic, but I detect a strong hint of condescension in your tone, which will make this endeavour difficult for me. If you're willing to be a little more humble in your approach, I'm more than happy to discuss with you. In the meantime, Buddhism is a religion, and this discussion belongs on the article talk page, not my user page. Thanks. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 15:23, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi there. Sorry you feel that way. I don't think you would be happy to discuss it with me, as you don't sound too happy, nor are you volunteering anything. I detect a tone of antagonism in your communication. I thought at first you might be giving me a Zen approach. Now I see you aren't. I can take what you say as what you really think. I don't think we have anything to discuss. I know how to deal with you and I will. That doesn't necessarily mean it is best to do anything. That infobox is not what it seems. It is out of date. Many of the parameters have been deprecated without notification. As for your opinion, I don't care a rat's tail what you may think. Instead of saying directly what I asked you, you want me to crawl a bit first. With all due respect to a WP editor, I decline. There might be a problem here, which I see now might need a consensus, but I am looking further into it. I thought maybe your opinion and mine might have something of a consensus, but I guess not. Ciao.Botteville (talk) 23:27, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've transferred the conversation from my user talk page here, because as a content dispute, this is where it belongs. It will also go to show the validity or respective arguments.
 * @Botteville, I don't know what you're all about, but the message you left on my talk page appears to demonstrate your disregard for dissenting opinions on the changes you wish to make to the page. You have gone ahead and added content that is entirely unreferenced, which constitutes OR. I hope you are aware that this is not acceptable on WP. All content must be referenced, otherwise it will be deleted. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The only dissenting opinion I see is your reversion of my improvements to the previous material already marked unreferenced. I told you references are following. The previous material is totally unreferenced. What, you want to restore unreferenced material to unreferenced material? Can't you wait 24 hours for the references? This is plain and simple edit warring and a person who has been on here as long as you have ought to know better. This is unacceptable. Maybe you need to take a break from WP for a while. Now, give me chance to add the requested references. Furthermore the titles don't need to be referenced. I'm using WHS titles as we cite this as a WHS. What's wrong with you? As far as your deletion of the deity is concerned, how can you say I neglected dissenting opinion? I put the matter out for consensus review and you have NOT given the requested opinion or the requested discussion. What is this, you follow whatever trivial grudge you feel like and put out a barrage of edit-warring lies to cover it? What did you think was going to happen? You need to resign. At least follow the procedures here. I'd say, put another unreferenced tag on, but the previous already had such a tag, which I left.Botteville (talk) 11:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC) PS I can't work on this 24-7, so just be a little patient, if that is possible for you. What happened to the Zen?
 * @Botteville, I never claimed to be Zen. You shouldn't be adding content until your references are ready. Lastly, from now on, I encourage you to restrict your comments to the article content. If you continue to make personal attacks against me and comments related to my person, I will report your behaviour. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I never thought you claimed to be Zen. Just for a minute there you sounded like it. I guess not. Now you don't sound like it. But, I do not care what you are. I just want you to be nice, until it is time not to be nice, which is the admin's decision, not yours. You set the tone on your first deletion, by refering to my |deity= statement as "random" and non-sensical. OK. But then when I asked what it should be you blew up. Don't blow up. Talk. I repeat, if we are presenting Buddhism as a religion, which in fact we are in many articles, we need some form of the deity in there no matter what they choose to call it. But that is in the mill now. Contribute if you wish or not, just as you please. Having presented Buddhism as religion we cannot now present it as good old-fashioned atheism or communism, which I am sure you are not doing, but it limits our options. If you want to suggest we change the box or the approach for this article, do so. I'm not making attacks on you, only on your approach. I only know you by what you say. From now on I encourage you to follow the spirit of the WP code, always tell the truth, don't make up phony excuses as to why you can't discuss or why you have reverted. For example, what minority dissent of yours have I reverted or refused? And yet you characterize me as intolerant. In case you didn't know it, you aren't alone on this article. You can report me to whomever you like, but if you think this discussion is not being closely monitored by at least one admin, think again. They are the bouncers here, but they try no to do it lightly. Pay attention. I suppose if a genuine content issue were to arise here the matter would be arbitrated. For now they aren't going to hold our hands. At one point they had a child in charge of arbitration. Role reversal, but it was meant as statement to us. For references, I think if you give someone more that a couple of hours before reversion you will save us all some time. I've had people dog me as I edit and revert as soon as I saved. They would get up early just to do that. You DON'T want to be one of those. They aren't around now, I believe. WP may be slow to act, but it does act. I've had the suggestion a number of times that I pop in completed work with full references. I do that if I can, but now I am working on multiple articles on a topic and it just isn't convenient to keep all the refs caught up. If you see a place that needs a ref stick in a request for one. That gives me more time. The worst possible and most antagonistic way is just to delete text with no more discussion than "no reference" or "irrelevant" or "random and incomprehensible." Do I look like a random person to you? I'm trying to get us to be the best we can be. So that about covers it. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.Botteville (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Botteville, this is your last warning from me. Restrict your commentary to the article content, keep it relevant, and avoid stating your opinions about other editors. If you do not follow this guideline, you will be reported for abuse and bullying. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Botteville, have you finished adding references to the content you've added so far, or are you still collecting them? In its current form, the content requires more referencing. Thanks. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 02:17, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No. I'm never actually finished collecting them. Whenever I find a good ref I put it in. I appreciate your taking my suggestion and putting in requests for clarification where you think it is relevant. It gives me an idea of where the text can be improved. I have more to add to that introductory section. I appreciate your not attempting further deletions of the material I feel should be in there and on which I have worked so hard.

 * There is one more topic to discuss. You notified me of your report for abuse and bullying. I guess you did not wish to wait to see if I followed the guideline you felt YOU had to impose. Since I was notified, it seems to me the topic is open to discussion. Strictly speaking the case would not qualify for edit warring on the basis of number of reversions. We each reverted once. Looking up your report I find that it failed. Nevertheless I note that you feel bullied and I hope that we can do better. My only guideline for you to follow is the WP editing policy, which is why I appreciate your tagging rather than deleting. Might we not get back to the article now?Botteville (talk) 05:09, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The way you express yourself, I have trouble discerning whether you are being condescending/passive aggressive or if your words are spoken in good faith. Perhaps it's the language barrier. Either way, I'm happy to focus on the article. Please don't do what you did here though, where you inexplicably duplicated several sections. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 06:18, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm a simple man and a free man. I got no need to double speak. I'm not under any fear. I live in a free country so I speak my mind freely (within limits of common sense.) Naturally there is always a price to pay and of course I have paid it. I pretty much say what I mean and mean what I say. Naturally I'm chagrined that I didn't get my own way. That's human is it not? So, the simplest interpretation of what I say is best. I admit I can be sarcastic. Usually there is no question about when I am. In the article, it does not bother me that you alter what I write. A career writer such as I was knows perfectly well that his stuff needs editing. In my business they hired writers but also editors to edit the writing. It was only the total reversion of everything I was trying to do that made me see red. Think about it. It is a denial of one's existence, like when a friend or former friend or someone who should be a friend cuts you cold. One place I worked solved the problem by forbidding employees to speak to the boss except when spoken to. But, you're not interested in what I have to say, are you? (sarcasm). Whether there be a language barrier I do not know as I do not know your language. Undoubtedly there would be some cross-cultural misinterpretations. Par for the international course, but you didn't want to discuss this topic. Just have to live with it. Using Google translate anyone can work with any language to some degree. My language is English and I am a New Englander. We can be tough to take sometimes. Well enough of this chatting. After this section I will be off this for a while as there are other related articles and tasks I need to get back to. But, you know, it does need a lot of polishing. It is only a c-class article. If you are going to stay on it I suggest a reorg and a good check for personal opinion. Give it the same scrutiny you are giving me. Well I really got to go.Botteville (talk) 07:03, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Botteville, apologies for the misunderstanding; I'm not sure why I assumed there was a language barrier between us. What I'll point out is that your convoluted and verbose way of expressing yourself isn't conducive to building trust, quite the opposite; at least that's been my experience. I'll leave it at that, as I'm sure we each have other tasks to attend to. Good day. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 14:58, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * According to your attempted report you have no right on WP to make such a statement. It is abusive. You're not here to make evaluations of me as a writer. As far as trust is concerned, you didn't trust me from the start. I had no chance with you at all. You began by demanding humility as a condition for even talking about the God issue. That is not a proper demand to make on WP. You want me to be in a position of suing for your trust. In the ordinary world we term this manipulation. I won't be manipulated. I refrain from counter-name-calling, except to point out you are being manipulative. This is not right. As far as your comment is concerned, in my business I never yet heard of one writer being happy with the prose of any other writer so I'm inclined just to tolerate it as part of professionalism, but don't reply too much on my toleration. As I said, your comments also are being observed. You keep looking as though you might want to make peace and then you turn around and make comments like this. In my world we call this "being jerked around." Right now it seems cynical to me but in view of your position as editor I'm leaving it open. But now, you cause me to change my mind. I'm staying on this article, every bit of it. We will slug it out as long as it takes to get a good article, back burner, of course. Later, I'm sure.Botteville (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

The Revirlaku Arguments
By this time it is obvious that this editor and I are not agreeing on anything at all. To date this editor has attempted to revert every change I make. I think it is time to present the truth, as he is moving up in complaints, as he has a right to do, of course. To the idea of wreaking havoc. I am on this article because it was heavily tagged with various kinds of section tags. So, it was in bad shape to start with. There was an initial attempt by me to fill in the "deity parameter" which R. deleted. So, I put that issue out for public review. R. turned that review request into media circus. We are still waiting for word on what to do about that parameter. He refuses to discuss it.

Meanwhile I went on. The section previously marked "buildings" is the ONLY one I have worked on. Take a look at the article. Do you see any havoc there? I chose that because in the wikimedia section I was faced with a category of 1000 unsorted pictures. In sorting them I found I could divide them by building. This division did not correspond to the Shaolin Article and the building section was tagged. I was working on Mount Song. I found the organization of "buildings" was seriously out of date, and it had no references. So, I'm bringing it into line with current developments on the site. This whole falderal is over about 4 paragraphs in one section toward the end of the article. Take a look. What's being wrecked, where's the havoc? Plainly and simply F. is a troublemaker determined to block any improvement of the article any way he can for unstated reasons of his own. As for the other arguments, I do not know what he is talking about. He put up some tags as I requested. I've been answering those with the information he requested. "Duplicating sections" and the other complaints, I do not know what he is talking about. I didn't duplicate any sections. He's done a lot of reverting, just about everything, until I got my references in there. All right. He has a right to ask for references. He got them. What exactly is all this stuff about havoc? So, the entire issue about whether I am to be allowed to improve this article is now thoroughly aired. The admin must decide. He seems to be requesting arbitration although I have seen no such request. All I have seen is disruption. He reverts referenced material to unreferenced material without discussion. My recommendation is he be blocked from this article so we can get on with improving it. I will of course abide by whatever the admin decides, as one of its functions is to settle issues such as this. I hope these few remarks will help to settle it. Until a decision is made I will continue to update it with referenced material from high-quality sources such a Phd Thesis, UNESCO documents, and others. If you find any chaos or wrecking in the section I have been updating and say I should cease and desist of course I will. Otherwise we cannot allow one loud troublemaker to arbitrarily block any improvement. I hope this covers it.Botteville (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Content Discussions
I am hoping we can put discussions of specific items in here independently of the above issues.Botteville (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

New section
Hi @SChapter, thank you for adding a new section to the article. I've noticed that you've only included one reference to the section, however, so the bulk of it appears to be original research. Will you be adding more references to support the new content? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Plan for architectural features
The main problem with the former list of buildings, current and apparently accepted architectural features, was that it is seriously out of date, and except where I have changed it still is. Things seem to happen so fast at that site that our humble material soon gets out of date. I note that most of the building and other features have no articles here, except article of features in general. I have spent some time categorizing the hundreds of pictures by building or feature so I think we are ready for the articles. I guess that at some point I will start doing that but there is plenty of work for all. Meanwhile we have this scanty, out-of-date list. Looking through this sort of material on WP I find that tables are often good-looking substitutes for lists. I propose to turn that list into a table, which would also allow us to put in a picture for such items as have them (a good many do). If no one objects I will do that at some point. Considering that this article is of such interest to so many users I thought I better announce this. I notice that since out great God argument more people have been working on this article and doing so politely. I think reading the penalties for non-cooperation was a bit sobering for us all. Thank you for your courtesy. Incidentally the Shaolin Monastery stele offers indisputable proof that this monastery was Mahayana and believed in God. I'm not yet ready to bring that to this article, might not be for a time. Meanwhile I think you are right to bring unreferenced or poorly referenced ideological material under closest scrutiny. There is a theory, reported in this encyclopedia, that Buddhists do not beleive in God, and that Buddha is not God. There ought to be some balance here. If they don't believe in God, just what were they doing in that monastery, elaborating some kind of elaborate acrobatism for the future movies? I will not be looking at this page again until I get ready to do so.Botteville (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

New section
Hi @Botteville, you recently created the new section "Access to the site", which doesn't include any references, so at the moment, it appears to be entirely based on original research. Are you planning to add supporting references? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:53, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There is too a reference as I noted. It is Google maps. Don't you count that as a reference, or what? How can pointing out where something is on the map be any sort of original research? I do plan to continue that section, which seems to me is important for locating the monastery with regard to other features. Most other articles on places have it. So, you have a number of options. I would prefer you mark the specific sentence that you feel needs a separate reference just to make sure that I understand which fact it is. A second option would be to leave it alone until I get further with it. Yes, other references with maps certainly will follow. A third option would be to delete it now. I feel that would be deleting referenced material but for this I would follow my usual procedure in such cases, which is to work up more of the section and put it all back. Meanwhile I cannot understand why you are discriminating me out for this treatment when so much of this article is in bad condition and needs your work. To me it borders on harassment. The end is already known. We are going to go on like this until you get sick of it or the administration finds reason to step in. I point out that you accepted the final material under "protection" and that your absurd charges against me failed. This isn't right.Botteville (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * PS I found another ref right away so now it has two refs. Kindly quit saying it is unreferenced. I think two is enough but it isn't pure numbers of refs they desire. I think this takes away your option to "delete unreferenced material." If you put a tag up in some specific place I no doubt can find a ref for it. The question is when material stops being general knowledge, which does not need a ref. For example, the statement "the sky is blue" does not need a ref. Understand, WP policy requires me to take you at face value rather than as absurdly hypocritical and malicious of intent. So, I think I have covered your current critique. I suggest you let me get further, but put up tags if you must. I am a slow but persistent writer. I suggest you might use the time on the other sections.Botteville (talk) 01:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * PPS I found a 3rd ref right away. Ordinarily I would think this material too obvious from the map to need a ref, but you requested refs, refering to the text as "unreferenced" even though it had one. Now it has three. I think more would be overkill. I trust this closes the matter until I get more done. I would like to see more references placed by you on the tagged material above, or don't you do that sort of thing?Botteville (talk) 02:16, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, a "reference" that basically says "go look in google maps" isn't really a reference, IMO. I don't generally add references unless it's an article I've created/expanded. Most of my work consists of copy editing and adding tags; you know, just the easy stuff ;) Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It is too a reference if you are clear about what map, which mine are. As far as your mission for copy-editing is concerned, blanket deletion is not copy editing, it is deletion. Putting the tags in is copy-editing. Why do you concentrate on my stuff when the whole rest of the article needs it worse? What is this, selective cope-editing? Moreover I never yet heard of a copy-editor whose main copy-editing is telling the writer he is a terrible writer. No excuses, please, you insult the intelligence of the other editors. Somebody has to write before you can copy-edit, so "the simple stuff" does not do it. So far mostly what you have done is sit around telling me how bad my writing is and trying to lodge a complaint against me for my objections. While I appreciate what little copy-editing you do do, the whole article needs extensive copy-editing and rewriting. When are you going to get to it, or is it only me you are interested in? I will not always have the time to work with you on improving your copy editing, so I guess we may have to slug it out for a while. I see it as an important article, worth more time than has been given it so far.Botteville (talk) 03:38, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Botteville, I want to be able to engage with you, but everything you address to me just drips of condescension and patronizing, which makes an open and honest discussion difficult. You will likely deny this, however. I have done a copy edit of the entire article, and while I'm sure it could still be improved upon (my edit, as well as the whole article itself), I am currently satisfied with its overall status. I am not overly interested in expanding or improving the page, as that it not my focus. I'm also not very inclined in adding references—again, not my area of interest.
 * I'm not singling you out, no need to keep looking over your shoulder—you just happen to be the only user currently editing this page, and as it's on my watchlist, I am notified of any change you make. That's just the nature of the situation, I have no personal interest in your work or person. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Excuse me, that is the second time you have accused me of condescension and patronizing. I do deny this. It is YOU who are doing the patronizing and you did so right from the start. I think you ARE being honest and open. You are an honest and open bully and fully intend to be so. I suppose you have gotten away with being that for so long it comes perfectly natural to you and you think I am going to fit your submissive ideas. Well, I'm not. Now, if you are not interested in improving the page despite the tags on it that means you are only interested in copy-editing my edits. So, you are focusing on me. If you are happy with the article that means you are happy with the non-referenced parts of it, yet you do not delete THEM. This is clearly prejudice against me. You may not have any interest in me, but you clearly have an interest in making it hard for ME to work on this article. Why should I look over my shoulder for you? I do not fear you. I don't know you either, but I know how you are on this article and I do not think that is consistent with WP policy. You can't be unhappy with something I did but happy with the exact same thing that someone else did. But, I do not think any communication is taking place here. You need change your bad attitude. So, what is to be done. Impasses such as this can only be settled in consensus or by the administration. But, what is the issue? Right now there is nothing much to settle. This is mainly just words and feelings. I suppose I will go on writing and you will go on copy-editing my writing. I am sure by this time the admin is aware of this conflict. So, it is, so to speak, already in their hands. I think we've said everything here. I'm mainly interested in content. It appears I will have to go over the whole article. When it gets down to specifics I cannot say we are entirely in disagreement. We have each accepted a lot of changes by the other. I think it is time to just let the admin decide whether this merits intervention or constitutes edit warring or what. I got really nothing further I want to say to you. As to your last deletion you finally decided to be fully frank and open. I appreciate that. It is a question of relevant content. I think on that one I see your point. Parking is less relevant. So, I'm letting it go. I suggest you go on with what you really think. I'll be going on with that section at some point. We need to get the reader to the gate of the monastery itself. It may be some time before I get back to this non-discussion, if ever. We're sticking to the edits now.Botteville (talk) 06:59, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Culture section
Hypothetically someone could just remove "Heritage culture" as no one is responding to the call for refs. I would hate to see that happen yet as it is good writing on a topic that needs a place here. The only thing is, it is too good for us here. We aren't allowed to write that good. We call it essay-style, a forbidden style. I checked for possible plagiarism and did not find any. There is ref material on the 4 aspects of Shaolin culture. Probably there should be a subsection on each aspect. I would wait, though, as some of them might be covered earlier in the article. Also, the distinction between native culture and international culture is not being adhered to even though there are sections on both. In view of its potential, I say, let's not delete it yet. Give someone further chance to develop its potential.Botteville (talk) 03:51, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Probable cut-paste plagiarism
According to the Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks (AD 645) by Daoxuan, Shaolin Monastery was built on the north side of Shaoshi, the central peak of Mount Song, one of the Sacred Mountains of China, by Emperor Xiaowen of the Northern Wei dynasty in AD 477, to accommodate the Indian teacher Batuo, a dhyāna master who came to China to spread Buddhist teachings beside the capital Luoyang.

I became suspicious of this when I could not find it in the reference, Shahar page 9. I searched through Shahar and could not find it anywhere. I did a general search on Google of the entire first sentence down to Xiaowan. Much to my surprise this sentence is very well copied on a large number of Internet sites. But, they might have copied us. So I searched the books. I did find it on Page 122 of Akhtar Malik's 2007 "A Survey of Buddhist Temple and Mountains" but not in any other book. Unfortunately this is only a snippet view of the searched sentence. It needs verification. So, I did not resort to any of WP's more severe tags. As much of this section and the intro uses paraphrases, it seemed to me someone might have meant to paraphrase and got the source wrong. What I lack is the context in the copied source. Anyone got a copy? I guess we might check WP Library also. I leave this up to you. If you can verify that this is NOT a Copyright vio, go ahead, put it back. I will leave the logical space open, but I don't think it is clear either that Dosen said that or what he could have meant. He is only one source on the foundation, and they do not all agree.Botteville (talk) 05:26, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Article tag - written as if an advertisement
Is this the community consensus? I find such tags off-putting to the lay reader wanting knowledge about a particular topic. I am no expert on this topic and question whether the tag is appropriate. Amuseclio (talk) 00:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Amuseclio
 * I proofread it a while back, but it didn't strike me as being written like an advertisement very much. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Why does the article include this cleanup tag? Jarble (talk) 02:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Text like this seems like an advertisement to me:

The Temple's historical architectural complex, standing out for its great aesthetic value and its profound cultural connotations, has been inscribed in the UNESCO World Heritage List. Apart from its contribution to the development of Chinese Buddhism, as well as for its historical, cultural, and artistic heritage, the temple is famous for its martial arts tradition.

Kerrick Staley (talk) 21:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I see what you mean, and I agree, that does read like an advertisement. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 02:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shaolin Monastery


text:
Michael Johnson (sprinter)

Michael Duane Johnson (born September 13, 1967) is an American retired sprinter who won four Olympic gold medals and eight World Championships gold medals in the span of his career. He held the world and Olympic records in the 200 m and 400 m, as well as the world record in the indoor 400 m. He also once held the world's best time in the 300 m. Johnson is generally considered one of the greatest and most consistent sprinters in the history of track and field.

Johnson is the only male athlete to win both the 200 meters and 400 meters events at the same Olympics, a feat he accomplished at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. Johnson is also the only man to successfully defend his Olympic title in the 400 m, having done so at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney. Aside from his Olympic success, Johnson accumulated eight gold medals at the World Championships and is tied with Carl Lewis for the fourth most gold medals won by a runner.

Johnson's distinctive stiff upright running position and very short steps defied the conventional wisdom that a high knee lift was necessary for maximum speed. As of 2012, Johnson held 13 of the top 100 times for the 200 meters (having broken 20 seconds 23 times) and 27 of the top 100 times for the 400 meters. Of those, he holds 14 of the top 25 times for the 400 meters. He broke 44 seconds for the 400 meters 22 times, more than twice as many times as any other athlete.

Johnson held the US national records for the 200, 300, and 400 meters. The 4 × 400 meters relay world record was anchored by Johnson.

Since 2001, he has worked for the BBC, appearing as a pundit at multiple events. He has been a part of the BBC's Olympics athletics coverage since Athens 2004.

1991–1995
In 1991 at the World Championships in Tokyo, Johnson earned his first world title by winning the 200 m race by the unusual margin of victory of 0.33 seconds over Frankie Fredericks.

Two weeks before the 1992 Summer Olympics began, Johnson and his agent both contracted food poisoning at a restaurant in Spain. Johnson lost both weight and strength. He was the favorite to win the 200 m going into the Olympics, but he could do no better than sixth in his semifinal heat, and failed to reach the 200 m final by 0.16 seconds. Nevertheless, he was able to race as a member of the 4 × 400 m relay team, which won a gold medal and set a new world-record time of 2:55.74. Johnson ran his leg in a time of 44.73.

He won the 1993 U.S. title in the 400 m, and followed it with world titles in both the 400 m and 4 × 400 m relay. His 42.91 second split time in the 4 × 400 m relay remains the fastest 400 meters in history. At the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson won his first 200 m and 400 m "double". No elite-level male track athlete had accomplished this in a major meet in the 20th century. At the end he made it a "triple" by adding another title in the 4 × 400 m relay.

1996 Atlanta Olympics
In June 1996, Johnson was 28 when he ran the 200-m in 19.66 seconds at the U.S. Olympic Trials, breaking Pietro Mennea's record of 19.72 seconds that had stood for nearly 17 years. With that performance he qualified to run at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta and prepared to attempt to win both the 200 meters and 400 meters events, a feat never before achieved by a male athlete. (Two women have won Olympic gold medals in both races in the same year: Valerie Brisco-Hooks in the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles, and Marie-José Pérec, in the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta.)

Johnson entered the Olympic finals donning a custom-designed pair of golden-colored Nike racing spikes made with Zytel, causing him to be nicknamed "The Man With the Golden Shoes". Sources differ on the exact weight of these shoes; the manufacturer of the spikes claims they weighed 3 oz each, while other sources state each shoe weighed about 94 g. The left shoe was a US size 10.5 while the right shoe was a US size 11, to account for Johnson's longer right foot.

On July 29, Johnson easily captured the 400 m Olympic title with an Olympic record time of 43.49 seconds, 0.92 seconds ahead of silver medalist Roger Black of Great Britain. At the 200 m final on August 1, Johnson ran the opening 100 meters in 10.12 seconds and finished the race in a world-record time of 19.32 seconds, breaking by more than three tenths of a second the previous record he had set in the U.S. Olympic Trials, on the same track one month earlier—the largest improvement ever on a 200 m world record. Some commentators compared the performance to Bob Beamon's record-shattering long jump at the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City. During the race, Johnson strained a muscle in his leg, which prevented him from winning his third gold medal of the Olympics in the 4 × 400 m relay as Team USA went on to win the gold even without him.

After the 1996 season ended, Johnson received the James E. Sullivan Award as the top amateur athlete in any sport in the United States, and was named ABC's Wide World of Sports Athlete of the Year. In August, HarperCollins published his biographical/motivational book, Slaying the Dragon: How to Turn Your Small Steps to Great Feats.

Rivalry with Donovan Bailey
After the end of the 1996 Summer Olympics, American Sportscaster Bob Costas claimed that Johnson was faster than 100m Gold medalist Donovan Bailey Because Johnson's 200m time (19.32 Seconds) divided by 2 (9.66 Seconds) was shorter than Bailey's 100m time (9.84). This started a debate on whether Johnson or Bailey was the real "World's Fastest Man", which in turn resulted in a 150m race between the two, in which Bailey won after Johnson, already behind in the race, alleged to have injured his hamstring.

1997–1999
After recovering from the injury, Johnson was able to compete for his third 400 m world title. The IAAF invented a new policy of giving a "bye" to the defending champions essentially to allow Johnson to compete in the IAAF World Championships that year, because Johnson was unable to qualify the conventional method (by competing in the USA Outdoor Track and Field Championships) due to his injury from the race with Bailey. More than a month after the U.S. Championships, Johnson had recovered from his injury and won the 400 meters at the 1997 World Championships in Athens.

At the 1998 Goodwill Games in New York City, Johnson anchored the U.S. 4 × 400 m relay team with Jerome Young, Antonio Pettigrew, and Tyree Washington to a win and set a world record of 2:54.20. Pettigrew has since admitted doping from 1997, while Young was caught doping in 1999. The world record was annulled by the IAAF in August 2008, and reverted to the time of 2:54:29 Johnson helped set in the 1993 World Championships.

Johnson was plagued by injury in 1999, and his following season was troubled with two injury scares that limited him to just four 400 m races before the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Were it not for the IAAF policy established two years earlier for Johnson, that allowed automatic entry to defending champions, he could not have raced in Seville since he failed to compete in the U.S. trials due to his injury. He recovered and won his fourth 400 meter world title with a new world-record time of 43.18 seconds at the relatively late age of 31 years and 11 months, which stood for 12 days short of 17 years before being beaten at the 2016 Olympics by the South African Wayde van Niekerk. Johnson's splits for this world record were 21.22 seconds for the opening 200 meters and 21.96 seconds for the closing 200 meters, giving a differential of 0.74 seconds.

2000 Sydney Olympics
After qualifying for the 2000 Summer Olympics in the 400 m, Johnson sustained an injury in the 200 m final while racing in a highly anticipated matchup against the 100 m and 200 m world champion, Maurice Greene. The injury prevented a defense of his 200 m Olympic title. Johnson ended his career at the Sydney Olympics by winning the gold medal in the 400 m, which brought his total number of Olympic gold medals to four. By winning the 400 m at the age of 33 years 12 days, he earned the distinction of being the oldest Olympic gold medalist at any track event shorter than 5000 m. Johnson was also the anchor of the United States 4 × 400 relay team along with Alvin Harrison, Antonio Pettigrew, and Calvin Harrison, which originally won the gold medal, but was later stripped of the title after Pettigrew and Jerome Young (who ran in the heats) were found guilty of having used performance-enhancing drugs.

On July 18, 2004, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) ruled that Jerome Young was ineligible to compete in Sydney and annulled all his past results, including those achieved as part of relay teams. Young had competed for the USA team in the heats and semi-final of this event. Therefore, the United States team was stripped of the gold medal and Nigeria, Jamaica, and the Bahamas were moved up one position each. On July 22, 2005, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) overturned this decision and restored the original finish order of the race based on a ruling that a team should not be disqualified because of a doping offense by an athlete who did not compete in the finals. Then in June 2008, Antonio Pettigrew "admitted in court he cheated to win" by using banned performance-enhancing substances, and agreed to return his gold medal. Johnson announced that he would return his own gold medal, won as part of the relay team with Pettigrew. Johnson stated that he felt "cheated, betrayed and let down" by what Pettigrew had done at the Games. Pettigrew committed suicide in 2010.

Achievements
Johnson has run 200 m in under 19.80 seconds six times, and he has run the distance in less than 20 seconds twenty-three times. He holds nine of the top 50 200 m performances of all time. Johnson has run twenty-two 400 m races in under 44 seconds; he holds twenty-two of the top 50 and four of the top ten 400 m performances of all time. Over the course of his career, he twice set the world record in the 200 m, three times set the world record as part of the 4 × 400 m relay team, twice set the indoor 400 m world record, set the outdoor 400 m world record once, and set the 300 m mark once.

After athletics
Johnson was elected to the United States Track and Field Hall of Fame in 2004, where his 200 m performance at the 1996 Olympics was named the greatest track and field moment of the last 25 years.

Since retiring from competitive track, Johnson currently works as a television commentator, often for the BBC in the United Kingdom, where he has also written columns for the Daily Telegraph and The Times newspapers. Johnson first appeared for the BBC in 2001 at the World Championships and at the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester. He subsequently was part of the BBC's presenting team at the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing, 2012 Olympic Games in London, 2016 Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro and 2020 Olympic Games in Tokyo. He was in the BBC commentary booth for the men's 400 meters final in Rio de Janeiro to see his world record broken by Wayde van Niekerk, saying about van Niekerk's performance, "Oh my God! From lane eight, a world record. He took it out so quick. I have never seen anything from 200 to 400 like that. That was a massacre from Wayde van Niekerk. He just put those guys away."

Johnson guest-starred in the 2002 film, The Master of Disguise, as one of the disguises Fabbrizio (James Brolin) takes on to borrow the U.S. Constitution, as part of a scheme by Devlin Bowman (Brent Spiner) to steal the world's greatest treasures. Incidentally, one of the guards in that scene happens to be played by another actor named Michael Johnson.

In 2007 Johnson opened Michael Johnson Performance, at McKinney, Texas, a training facility for youth athletes aged 9 to 18 and professional athletes in all sports. The company works with Olympic teams and football clubs and has operations around the world. Michael Johnson Performance currently works with Arsenal, assisting in the development of young players in their academy.

In June 2008, Johnson voluntarily returned the 4 × 400 m relay gold medal he earned in the 2000 Olympics after Antonio Pettigrew, who ran the second leg, admitted he took performance-enhancing drugs between 1997 and 2001. Pettigrew made his admission while giving testimony in the trial of coach Trevor Graham for his role in the BALCO scandal. On August 2, 2008, the International Olympic Committee stripped the gold medal from the U.S. men's 4 x 400-meter relay team. Three of the four runners in the event final, including Pettigrew and twins Alvin and Calvin Harrison, and preliminary round runner Jerome Young, all have admitted or tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs. Only Johnson and Angelo Taylor, who also ran in preliminary rounds, were not implicated. Johnson had already returned his medal because, as he said, he felt the medal was not won fairly.

Johnson appeared as a contestant on NBC's 9th season of The Celebrity Apprentice (2010), placing 10th after exiting the show due to a personal issue on the fifth episode of the season first airing April 11, 2010.

As part of the build-up to the 2012 Summer Olympics, Johnson made a documentary, Survival of the Fastest, for Channel 4 which investigated the dominance of Afro-American and Afro-Caribbean sprinters. The program made the suggestion that a side effect of the slave trade may have been to accelerate natural selection as only the very fittest could survive the brutal process, resulting in a population predisposed to superior athletic performance.

Johnson currently lives in Marin County, California, with his second wife Armine Shamiryan, a chef, and his daughter Selendis Sebastian, born in 2000 during his first marriage to entertainment reporter Kerry D'Oyen.

Johnson was one of the Olympic torch bearers in the relay in the run up to the London 2012 Olympics, carrying it to Stonehenge and Salisbury Cathedral in Wiltshire.

In the summer of 2018, Johnson was co-captain and a coach for Godspeed, a flag football team made of former professional American football players that participated in the American Flag Football League (AFFL). The team were crowned the champions of participating pro teams but lost in the final match to the amateur champion team.

In September 2018, Johnson suffered a stroke that affected his left side. By November, he stated he was almost "back to normal", and attributed his successful recovery to the "Olympic mindset". In connection with his 54th birthday in 2021, he states that he has fully recovered.

In 2024, he launched a new Track and Field League ahead of a proposed 2025 season start.

title: Michael Johnson (sprinter)


text:
CEFCU Stadium

CEFCU ('sef-kyü) Stadium, formerly known as Spartan Stadium, is an outdoor athletic stadium on the west coast of the United States, located in the Spartan Keyes neighborhood of central San Jose, California. Owned by San José State University, the venue is the longtime home of Spartan football; it also hosts the university's commencement ceremony on Memorial Day weekend, and occasional high school football games. Known as Spartan Stadium for over eight decades, it was renamed in 2016.

CEFCU Stadium was the home of the San Jose Earthquakes (originally San Jose Clash) of Major League Soccer from the league's inception in 1996 through the 2005 season. Other tenants have included the original San Jose Earthquakes of the North American Soccer League from 1974 to 1984, the San Jose CyberRays of the Women's United Soccer Association from 2001 to 2003, and the San Francisco Dragons of Major League Lacrosse in 2008. Soccer Bowl '75 was also held at CEFCU.

During the winter and spring of 2009, the stadium's natural grass playing field was removed and replaced with FieldTurf, a new generation of artificial turf with a crumb rubber and sand infill. This improvement resulted in significant savings to the university in water use, fertilizer, seed and labor. The FieldTurf playing surface was later replaced with AstroTurf Rhino Blend in 2017. The playing field is aligned north-northwest to south-southeast, at an approximate elevation of 100 ft above sea level.

The stadium also received significant upgrades to the scoreboard and sound system in 2011 and 2020. This included installation of an HD video screen by Daktronics at the south end of the stadium in 2011, and a new, much larger video board at the north end in 2020.

Stadium history
CEFCU stadium officially opened in 1933 as a 4,000-seat facility. The stadium featured large berms on the east, west, north and south sides of the field, which gave the stadium a "sunken bowl" appearance. The stadium's seating capacity was increased to 8,500 in 1936, and later expanded incrementally to a total seating capacity of just over 18,000 by 1948. The most recent additions came in the 1980s when the capacity of the stadium was expanded from approximately 18,000 to just over 31,000 by adding end zone bleachers, an upper deck and boxes on the west side.

In 1998, the field was widened and other renovations were carried out for the San Jose Earthquakes soccer team in accordance with official FIFA regulations. As a result of these renovations, parts of the stands closest to the playing field were removed, thus lowering available seating for all sports to 30,456.

On January 13, 2007, the San Jose Mercury News reported that the city of San Jose, San Jose State University and the San Jose Earthquakes owners were in negotiations to demolish Spartan Stadium and build a new stadium just to the east. The new facility, to have 22,000 permanent seats but be expandable to a capacity of 30,000 for single games, would have been privately built by Lewis Wolff and John Fisher, the primary owners of the Earthquakes, with San Jose State providing the needed land. Additionally, the team and the university would build community soccer fields across Senter Road in Kelley Park using San Jose municipal bond money that had been approved years earlier for the purpose but never spent. The plan was for the new version of the San Jose Earthquakes to play in Spartan Stadium during the 2008 MLS season, then move into the new stadium in 2009. Plans for the stadium collapsed on April 19, 2007 after the Earthquakes and SJSU could not come to an agreement on revenue sharing.

Seating capacity remained at 30,456 until 2019, when it was temporarily reduced to 21,520 as part of a massive east-side stadium renovation project that included construction of the $70 million Spartan Athletic Center.

In August 2016, Citizens Equity First Credit Union purchased sole naming rights to Spartan Stadium for $8.7 million. The deal between CEFCU and San José State University will last for 15 years. SJSU was the first university in the California State University system and second university in the state of California to strike such a deal. The CEFCU sponsorship deal marked the third such arrangement among the 12 Mountain West Conference football members. The $8.7 million payout will primarily be used for athletic scholarships, athletics operations, and athletics facilities.

Spartan Athletics Center and East-side Renovations
A CEFCU Stadium east-side building addition was completed in August 2023 at an approximate cost of $70 million. Known as the Spartan Athletics Center, the 55,000 square-foot, multi-story facility houses a new football operations center, locker rooms, offices, meeting and training rooms and a sports medicine center. The facility also includes soccer team offices and locker rooms, as well as dining and hospitality facilities, event spaces and premium viewing areas.

The east-side stadium renovation has temporarily reduced seating capacity at CEFCU Stadium from just over 30,000 to 21,520. Approximately 9,000 seats were removed from the stadium in 2019 to make way for the new building. This includes virtually all of the east-side stadium seating and some of the north end zone bleachers. The north end zone bleachers were removed to make way for construction of a new state-of-the-art video scoreboard and outdoor bar and lounge area. The new scoreboard was completed in 2020.

As of 2023, a second phase of the east-side building and renovation project remains in the planning stages. The second phase is aimed at replacing spectator seating that was removed to make way for the SAC.

Other uses
The now defunct NCAA Silicon Valley Football Classic bowl game was held at CEFCU Stadium from 2000 to 2004.

CEFCU Stadium has hosted numerous FIFA events. Most notably the stadium was used as one of the venues for the 1999 Women's World Cup. Additionally in 1999, the stadium was the host site of the 1999 NCAA Women's College Cup.

The stadium previously hosted commencement ceremonies of San José State University every spring, as well as musical concerts throughout the year.

Nearby venues
CEFCU Stadium is only one block from several local professional sports teams and arenas, including:

 * The Excite Ballpark, home of the San Jose Giants, the Low-A minor league baseball affiliate of the San Francisco Giants.
 * The Tech CU Arena at Sharks Ice San Jose, home of the San Jose Barracuda, the American Hockey League affiliate of the San Jose Sharks.

title: CEFCU Stadium


text:
Tab stop

A tab stop on a typewriter is a location where the carriage movement is halted by an adjustable end stop. Tab stops are set manually, and pressing the tab key causes the carriage to go to the next tab stop. In text editors on a computer, the same concept is implemented simplistically with automatic, fixed tab stops.

Modern word processors generalize this concept by offering tab stops that have an alignment attribute and cause the text to be automatically aligned at left, at right or center of the tab stop itself. Such tab stops are paragraph-specific properties and can be moved to a different location in any moment, or even removed.

Sometimes, placeholders in code snippets are also called "tab stops" because the user can cycle through them by pressing the tab key.

Types of tab stops
A tab stop is a horizontal position which is set for placing and aligning text on a page. There are at least five kinds of tab stops in general usage in word processing or in Microsoft Word.

 * Left: text extends to the right from the tab stop.
 * Center: text is centered at the tab stop.
 * Right: text extends to the left from the tab stop until the tab's space is filled, and then the text extends to the right.
 * Decimal: text before the decimal point extends to the left, and text after the decimal point extends to the right.
 * Bar: a vertical line at the specified position on each line in a document.

Dynamic tab stops
In contrast to fixed positioning, tab stops can be adjusted dynamically, based on the length of adjacent tab-delimited line segments, by alignment to a specific character or string in each line, etc. Adobe InDesign supports a non-printing "indent to here" character.

In 2006, Nick Gravgaard published an algorithm for automatic dynamic tab stops called "Elastic tabstops". This can be useful for viewing/editing source code and essential for tabular data. Various text editors and IDEs have implemented the elastic tabstops algorithm either directly or by extension.

Software which supports elastic tabstops

 * Visual Studio
 * Atom
 * Textadept
 * Code Browser
 * JEdit
 * Notepad++
 * Go tabwriter package
 * Rust tabwriter crate
 * Emacs

title: Tab stop


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John H. Chapman Space Station

This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of the page entitled John H. Chapman Space Station.

This page is kept as an historic record.

The result of the debate was to keep the article.

should be deleted because there was an error in the name. I just created John H. Chapman Space Centre to replace it, with the content of the "station" and more. There should not be a redirect becasue it is in no way a space station!AlainV 03:13, 2004 May 14 (UTC)
 * Changed to redirect. Keep harmless redirect. (By the way, the redirect blew away the VfD notice. Apologies if I broke protocol.) Rossami 13:25, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
 * By the way, you should always move a page rather than copying its contents from one location to another (reasons at t'other end of that link). Then you'd have a redirect, like we do now, and could list it on Redirects for deletion if you felt it would do more harm than good. I'd say keep this one though, in case someone else makes the same mistake. - IMSoP 14:17, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Seems like a plausible brain fart. Keep redirect. -- Cyrius|&#9998 23:19, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue should be placed on other relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.