text:
Talk:Disk cloning

} Please be aware that I am not a neutral party in this article. I work for Symantec on the Ghost product. I'm proud of Ghost, and no doubt that shows through in the article. Feel free to change it to a more neutral point of view.

Although I've spent the last seven years working on disk cloning, I'm not aware of all the other programs in this sector. I'd be delighted if some of my competitors could jump in and help flesh out the article.--Gadfium 06:12, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Is there any free software alternative? We may point it out. -- Toytoy 14:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I replied to this on the Talk:Ghost (software) page, because that's where I saw the question first, although the reply is probably better suited to this page. If you actually check out any of the programs I mentioned there, or find anything else, you might like to add a mention to this article.-gadfium 18:27, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not a member, but i might suggest a reference on the links down the bottom at least to clonezilla, partimage, and drbl (diskless remote boot for linux) These are all open source, free and largely complete soltuions. with clonezilla and drbl, you can actually clone straight from a server onto a computer without a boot disk or any additional software on the machine. Handy!
 * I've added links to clonezilla and partimage. Drbl is linked to from the clonezilla page, and doesn't seem as relevant to this article.-gadfium 03:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

History-part
LOL ...>>>This procedure (Disk cloning) is also useful when moving to a larger capacity disk or to restore to a "virgin installation." --How dya Interpret "virgin installation":

an installation thats not (yet) fucked??? :D

Howdy! I noticed the following sentence in the History-section:

 * Ghost was the first disk cloning program.

Personally, I would prefer something like the following:

 * Ghost was one of the first commercially available disk cloning programs.

AFAIK, PowerQuest DriveImage/DriveCopy was also available around 1995/1998, although I am unable to find a quote or article on that right now. And who could forget dd, which has been around for ages and is utilized by g4u (mentioned in External Links).

 * While dd, diskcopy and so on were around long before Ghost, they are not disk-cloning programs except in the narrowest sense of the word. They copy the entire disk, not only the used parts of the partitions. They cannot resize partitions. They do no post-cloning operations, and they require tho original operating system to be able to restore an image. Similarly, various file copy programs including zip were around long before Ghost, and they were used for computer rollout, but they have most of the same limitations.

 * Ghost was the first disk cloning program. It was a novel concept, and created the market segment called Disk cloning. PowerQuest was one of several companies which recognised this new market segment and competed in it. I don't know when they launched their first disk cloning product, but it certainly wasn't before Ghost, and I doubt they would claim not to have been inspired by Ghost. PowerQuest was already a successful software company with partition resizing software.-gadfium 20:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * AFAIR it's true that Ghost was the first program to incorporate the functions of copying (like for instance PQ DriveImage/DriveCopy), resizing and creating different filesystems (like PQ PartitionMagic) in one application, which is IMHO why Ghost is/was so successful. So, it comes down to the definition of disk cloning, which is formulated in the article as "... a category of software which copies the contents of one computer hard disk to another". dd conforms to this definition, so the sentence "Ghost was the first disk cloning program." would be wrong, IMO. This, because of the fact that dd has shipped with UN*X for at least 12 years, and is available commercially and as open source. I reckon it's safe to say that dd isn't inspired by Ghost ;). Considering your and my opinions, is the current definition of disk cloning the right one? Please comment, TIA!

No, first came machines. Then comes the programs, which are more successful than the machines. And then came the programs that were more successful than the former. Norton goes into number three.

Let's Add Other Platforms
I'll be glad to do the Mac OS X part, but shouldn't we: 1. Create a stub page and 2. Move this page to a "Windows" subcategory?

I was looking for Mac OS X info and had to read a moment to figure out this was Windows-specific (and not X86 specific as it says in the article).

I'm sorry if I sound like a dummy, here, I'm pretty new to the editing side of Wikipedia, so thanks for your patience.
 * At the time this was written, x86 excluded the Mac. The article does cover Linux on x86. Expanding it to cover Mac OS X on x86 and PPC would be great, but I don't have the expertise to do so.-gadfium 19:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Software
I've added all programs I know to the software section. I've used external links for the apps that don't have Wikipedia Articles. Please do not remove these external links unless you create an Wiki article about each of these programs. We must try to keep wikipedia readable. Suaven 09:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Cannot Mondo Rescue be considered a disk cloning utility? If yes, then we might add it to the open source list.--Olivier Debre (talk) 14:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Backup
I'm curious.. The article currently mentions "Although disk cloning programs are not primarily backup programs, they are sometimes used as such". Is this still true? Although I recognize the value of a backup application over a cloning application (backup application being much faster), I think it should be noted that backup applications are typically incapable of backing up your full installations. I.e. if you lost your drive you can get back at your data files, but be prepared to re-install the application to work with those data files. Whereas with a clone, restoring the clone is all that is required to be back up and running in addition to being able to restore individual files? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZeBoxx (talk • contribs)
 * If you use a disk cloning program to make a copy of your hard disk, on another disk, tape or network drive, then you can recover your disk very easily in the case of disaster, but most disk cloning programs cannot make incremental backups, so each backup is very large and slower than an incremental backup. The disk cloning program may require rebooting the system to Dos or similar while it makes the copy.

 * A backup program mostly requires the original operating system to be reinstalled before you restore a disk, but has great flexibility in making various types of incremental backups, and allows you to continue using the computer while the backup is made. It is also usually more flexible at allowing restore of individual files. A backup program will not do post-cloning configuration, or multicasting. I would expect a full backup or restore is likely to be slower with a backup program than a disk cloning program, but I've never run benchmark comparisons.

 * There is certainly some overlap, with some backup programs capable of doing bare-metal restores. I don't know if such backup programs allow changing partition sizes, but I expect they would.

 * I can't actually answer your question about whether cloning programs are used as backup, other than that I know a number of people who do this.- gadfium 05:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"I think it should be noted that backup applications are typically incapable of backing up your full installations." - That may have been true 10 years ago, but it definitely is not true today. Both Acronis and ShadowProtect are more than capable of backing on a volume level, including any MBR and boot sectors. If you want, you can even backup the entire contents of the hard drive. Their boot CDs also allow you to do much the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.241.164 (talk) 06:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can confirm that, I use R-Drive Image and it allows me to create a Live CD to back up (and restore) my system. SF007 (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

A true clone is a sector-for-sector copy of a drive including all sectors used in the boot process. When a disk clone exists on a hard drive, that hard drive should be bootable. Anything else is not a clone but an image. For many years I have used true disk clones to make bootable backups. The backup drive is immediately bootable and usable, requiring no reinstallation of anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.51.220.250 (talk) 21:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Odd wording
I'm not really an expert in this area, so I'm not going to edit it, but I noticed one section (post-cloning operations) where it talks about problems with Windows machines having duplicated SIDs. Then it completely reverses its viewpoint as if to nullify the previous argument. This just seems like bad style, and the two parts of the section should probably be combined once the actual facts are figured out. Also citations are needed. 71.98.20.88 19:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

ZENworks
Is there a reason Novell's Zenworks Imaging is not mentioned? Is it merely licensed from one of the ones that is mentioned? I have worked with several of these imaging/cloning programs and found none to be as good as Novell's offering, so I was surprised not to see a mention. Even the Zenworks article only mentions it in passing. If inclusion is appropriate I'll add a link in the section for commercial apps. --Sorpigal 01:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Other discs?
Other discs can be cloned too, why only mention hard discs?  Hel pslo ose   19:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

 * This could include clone hard disk images in USB keydrives also and how to do it. --Mac (talk) 08:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Internal IDE to external USB
What about disk cloning an internal IDE hard disk to an external USB hard disk ?. --Mac (talk) 08:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate SIDs?
I'm not sure having duplicate SIDs on in a Active Directory domain actually matters, even though common sysadmin practise may say otherwise. NewSID, one of the more popular tools for changing a machine's SID, was recently retired by its author, who is a Technical Fellow in the Platform and Services Division at Microsoft. His full report is here, but most importantly he wrote, "I took my conclusion to the Windows security and deployment teams and no one could come up with a scenario where two systems with the same machine SID, whether in a Workgroup or a Domain, would cause an issue."

I'd like to get some concensus before I go ahead and edit the article, however. -- T p k 5 0 1 0  [ Talk ] 23:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

"though other reasons also exist."
could one footnote "other reasonds"? One could as well have said 'You don't want to know!' Not the language of hereabouts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.21.225 (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

No explanation is given
The How it works section does not explain how cloning is performed, or describes any means or tools used to that end. Instead, it attempts to explain the concept of cloning by reference to itself, a homunculus fallacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.4.105.152 (talk) 09:18, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Disk cloning


text:
Greater Victoria

Greater Victoria (also known as the Greater Victoria Region) is located in British Columbia, Canada, on the southern tip of Vancouver Island. It is usually defined as the thirteen municipalities of the Capital Regional District (CRD) on Vancouver Island as well as some adjacent areas and nearby islands.

The Capital Regional District administers some aspects of public administration for the whole metro region; other aspects are administered by the individual member municipalities of Greater Victoria. Roughly, Greater Victoria consists of all land and nearby islands east of a line drawn from the southern end of Finlayson Arm to the eastern shore of Sooke Harbour, along with some lands on the northern shore of Sooke Harbour.

Many places, buildings, and institutions associated with Victoria such as the University of Victoria, Victoria International Airport, and the Swartz Bay Ferry Terminal, are outside the City of Victoria itself, which has an area of just 19.5 km2 on the southern tip of Greater Victoria. Victoria is the locality indicated in the mailing addresses of several CRD municipalities and localities adjacent to Victoria. The central city of Victoria lends its name and cultural influence to many places and organizations in the metro region.

Municipalities
There are 13 cities, towns, and district municipalities in Greater Victoria.

 * "Core" municipalities
 * The City of Victoria, the adjacent District Municipalities of Saanich, Esquimalt and Oak Bay, and the town of View Royal.

 * West Shore
 * The cities of Colwood and Langford and the District Municipalities of Highlands, Metchosin, and Sooke, which lie generally west of Esquimalt Harbour and Portage Inlet.

 * Saanich Peninsula
 * The District Municipalities of Central Saanich, North Saanich, parts of Saanich, and the town of Sidney, which lie to the north of Victoria.

This breakdown is roughly mirrored by the three school districts in Greater Victoria.
 * Greater Victoria School District #61 - (the core municipalities)
 * Sooke School District #62 - (the Western Communities)
 * Saanich School District #63 - (the Saanich Peninsula)

Greater Victoria is the southernmost urban area in Western Canada; it is located south of the 49th parallel.

Neighbourhoods
This list is similar to, but not identical with, that used by the Greater Victoria real estate sales industry. Neighbourhoods with official status are italicized. Others may have no official definition, hence other lists of neighbourhoods in the Victoria area may differ. Other sources may give different boundaries as well.

 * Victoria
 * Burnside-Gorge
 * Rock Bay
 * Downtown
 * Chinatown
 * Fairfield-Gonzales
 * Cook Street Village
 * Humboldt Valley
 * Gonzales
 * Fernwood
 * Harris Green
 * Hillside-Quadra
 * Blanshard
 * Quadra Village
 * Mayfair
 * James Bay
 * Jubilee
 * North Jubilee
 * South Jubilee
 * North Park
 * Oaklands
 * Rockland
 * Victoria West
 * Saanich
 * Blenkinsop
 * Cadboro Bay
 * Queenswood
 * Ten Mile Point
 * Carey
 * Glanford
 * Marigold
 * Cordova Bay
 * Gordon Head
 * Arbutus
 * Mt. Douglas
 * North Quadra
 * Quadra
 * Cedar Hill
 * Lake Hill
 * Maplewood
 * Royal Oak
 * Broadmead-Sunnymead
 * Rural Saanich
 * Beaver Lake
 * Elk Lake
 * Interurban
 * Prospect Lake
 * Strawberry Vale
 * West Burnside
 * Saanich Core
 * Shelbourne
 * Mt. Tolmie
 * Tillicum
 * The Gorge
 * Oak Bay
 * Gonzales (Foul Bay)
 * Uplands
 * Willows Beach
 * Windsor Park
 * South Oak Bay
 * North Oak Bay
 * Estevan
 * Esquimalt
 * Craigflower
 * Colville Road
 * Gorge Vale
 * Parklands
 * Rockheights
 * Saxe Point
 * Songhees
 * West Bay
 * Work Point (DND)
 * View Royal
 * Shoreline
 * Colwood
 * Belmont Park
 * Colwood Corners
 * Hatley Park
 * Mill Hill
 * Royal Roads
 * Royal Bay
 * Triangle Mountain
 * Langford
 * North
 * Bear Mountain
 * Florence Lake
 * Millstream
 * Thetis Heights
 * South
 * Glen Lake
 * Goldstream Meadows
 * Luxton
 * Ravenwood
 * Westhills
 * Highlands
 * Durrance Lake
 * Thetis Lake
 * Willis Point
 * Metchosin
 * Happy Valley
 * Matheson Lake
 * Rocky Point
 * William Head
 * Central Saanich
 * Brentwood Bay
 * Island View
 * Saanichton
 * North Saanich
 * Cloake Hill
 * Dean Park
 * Deep Cove
 * Lands End
 * Patricia Bay ("Pat Bay")
 * Swartz Bay
 * Ardmore
 * Sidney
 * Sooke
 * Broom Hill
 * East Sooke
 * Otter Point
 * Kemp Lake
 * Sooke Town Centre
 * Sunriver
 * Saseenos
 * Whiffin Spit

Demographics
The Greater Victoria region has a combined population of 397,237 according to the 2021 Canadian census. The region comprises two of the fifteen most populous municipalities in British Columbia (Saanich, at number seven, and Victoria at number thirteen). The Canadian Census ranks Greater Victoria as the 15th largest metropolitan area in Canada, by population. The combined population of the cities, municipalities, unincorporated areas and First-Nation Reserves in the region are as follows:

 * 1) Saanich 117,735
 * 2) Victoria 91,867
 * 3) Langford 46,584
 * 4) Colwood 18,961
 * 5) Oak Bay 17,990
 * 6) Esquimalt 17,533
 * 7) Central Saanich 17,385
 * 8) Sooke 15,086
 * 9) Sidney 12,318
 * 10) North Saanich 12,235
 * 11) View Royal 11,575
 * 12) Juan de Fuca (Part 1) 5,132
 * 13) Metchosin 5,067
 * 14) Highlands 2,482
 * 15) New Songhees 1A First-Nation Reserve 1,839
 * 16) East Saanich 2 First-Nation Reserve 1,790
 * 17) South Saanich 1 First-Nation Reserve 712
 * 18) Cole Bay 3 First-Nation Reserve 266
 * 19) T'Sou-ke First-Nation Reserve 230
 * 20) Becher Bay 1 First-Nation Reserve 221
 * 21) Esquimalt First-Nation Reserve 120
 * 22) Union Bay 4 First-Nation Reserve 109

Ethnicity
In comparison to the Lower Mainland (Vancouver and environs), the region does not have a great deal of racial diversity. Most of the population is of European descent. A substantial community of those of Chinese descent has existed in Greater Victoria since the Fraser Gold Rush of 1858–60, which saw the first significant influx, arriving first via San Francisco then directly from China. There is also a substantial First Nations (indigenous) population whose ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Numerous First Nations reserves, forming distinct communities, exist in the region — primarily on the Saanich Peninsula, in Esquimalt, and in the Western Communities — although the majority of the First Nations population live off-reserve.

The largest ethnic groups in Greater Victoria, according to the 2016 census, are:

 * 1) English - 140,510
 * 2) Scottish - 98,475
 * 3) Canadian - 86,000
 * 4) Irish - 73,170
 * 5) German - 50,440
 * 6) French - 38,775
 * 7) Ukrainian - 19,410
 * 8) Chinese - 17,825
 * 9) Dutch - 17,790
 * 10) First Nations - 15,430
 * 11) Welsh - 14,140
 * 12) Polish - 13,610
 * 13) Norwegian - 12,130
 * 14) Italian - 11,665
 * 15) Swedish - 9,380
 * 16) Indian - 9,180
 * 17) Russian - 8,565
 * 18) American - 8,485
 * 19) Metis - 7,135
 * 20) Filipino - 6,650

The same information, although grouped more geographically, is below. The largest sub-grouping is included.

Culture
Many Victoria Region municipalities have their own fairs: Oak Bay's Tea Party, Esquimalt's Buccaneer Days, Sidney's Sidney Days, Sooke's Sooke Days, Western Communities' Luxton Rodeo, and Central Saanich's Saanich Fair. The Saanich Fair is the oldest and largest of all the Greater Victoria local fair venues; it is considered a de facto regional fair because of its greater size, content, and famous reputation. The Saanich Fair has the largest number of attendees of all the Victoria area fairs.

There is a wide variety of entertainment and recreational facilities and activities. The mild coastal climate ensures less extreme weather changes. Outdoor and indoor recreational areas are abundant throughout the region. The Rifflandia Music Festival takes place downtown in mid to late September. The Victoria Tall Ships Festival showcase sailing vessels and the sailing life. The Victoria Symphony performs over 100 concerts a year, including the renowned Symphony Splash, an annual free concert in the Inner Harbour on the August Sunday preceding B.C Day. The orchestra is on a barge playing to an audience of over 40,000. The Electronic Music Festival also takes place at Centennial Square, where DJs can show off their music mixing skills.

These regional positive qualities, along with new transportation links, international high-profile events (2007 NATO meeting, 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup, 1994 Commonwealth Games), could have helped produce a socio-economic effect in terms of: attractiveness as a place of residency, low unemployment, high real estate development potential for profit, increasing immigration of new people(s), and expanding opportunities for business or economic development. High-profile international attention performs its duty as a marketing, public relations, and sales catalyst for further activity. Boaters from around the world gather annually in the waters off of Vancouver Island for the Swiftsure International Yacht Race.

An example of this economic opportunity also lies in Victoria's geography. The April 19, 2008 Victoria Times Colonist newspaper printed a section, sponsored by the Downtown Victoria Business Association, focusing on the area's downtown selection of goods and service providers. As it was in the early days with merchants supplying and outfitting gold rush prospectors, today's modern merchants supply outdoor recreation seekers before they head to other parts of Vancouver Island for surfing, kayaking, hiking, camping, swimming, cycling or whatever activities they seek.

In June 2010, the Canadian Navy celebrated its 100th anniversary with a Fleet Review in the waters off of Greater Victoria, by Canada's former Governor General Michaëlle Jean. The review was attended by warships from Canada, France, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, the United States along with US and Canadian Coast Guard vessels. These celebration activities coincided with the Esquimalt Buccaneer Days Fair and the 2010 FIFA World Cup activities in local bars.

The 2010 Olympic Torch Relay started in Greater Victoria and proceeded to other communities across Canada. The conclusion of the torch relay began the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver BC.

Educational institutions

 * Camosun College (Saanich and Oak Bay)
 * Lester B. Pearson College (Metchosin)
 * Oshio College/Royal Pacific Institute
 * Pacific Rim College (Victoria)
 * Royal Roads University (Colwood)
 * University of Victoria (Saanich and Oak Bay)
 * University Canada West (Victoria campus closed 2011)
 * Vancouver Island School of Art (Victoria)
 * Victoria College of Art (Victoria)

Hospitals

 * Royal Jubilee Hospital (Victoria and Saanich)
 * Saanich Peninsula Hospital (Central Saanich/Saanich Peninsula)
 * Victoria General Hospital (View Royal)

Military installations
(Department of National Defence)

 * CFB Esquimalt HMC Dockyard (Esquimalt)
 * CFB Esquimalt Naden (Esquimalt)
 * HMCS Malahat (Victoria)
 * Bay Street Armoury (Victoria)
 * Lieutenant General E.C. Ashton Armoury (Saanich)
 * Victoria International Airport Air Force Squadron detachment (North Saanich)

Parks and natural features

 * Beacon Hill Park (Victoria)
 * Clover Point (Victoria)
 * Dallas Road Waterfront Pathway (Victoria)
 * Elk/Beaver Lake Regional Park (Saanich)
 * Francis/King Regional Park (Saanich)
 * Galloping Goose Regional Trail (from Victoria west through Sooke)
 * ȽÁU,WELṈEW̱/John Dean Provincial Park (North Saanich and Central Saanich)
 * Mount Douglas Park (Saanich)
 * Moss Rock Park (Victoria)
 * Ogden Point (Victoria)
 * Rithet's Bog (Saanich)
 * Sea to Sea Green Blue Belt
 * East Sooke Regional Park (Juan de Fuca EA)
 * Goldstream Provincial Park (Langford)
 * Gowlland Tod Provincial Park (Highlands, and Juan de Fuca EA)
 * Mount Work Regional Park (Saanich, Highlands, and Juan de Fuca EA)
 * Sooke Potholes Regional Park, Sooke Potholes Provincial Park and Sooke River Provincial Park (Sooke)
 * Swan Lake/Christmas Hill Nature Sanctuary (Saanich)
 * Thetis Lake Regional Park (View Royal, Langford, and Highlands)
 * Uplands Park (Oak Bay)
 * Cattle Point (Uplands Park, Oak Bay)
 * Saxe Point Park/Fleming Beach, former military defence gun bunkers/observation (Esquimalt)
 * Hartland landfill (mountain biking, tours & hiking) (Saanich)
 * Mount Tolmie (Saanich)

Scientific facilities

 * Dominion Astrophysical Observatory/National Research Council of Canada (Saanich)
 * Gonzales Observatory for Atmospheric Biogeochemistry Research (Oak Bay)
 * Institute of Ocean Sciences/Fisheries and Oceans Canada (North Saanich)
 * Geological Survey of Canada, GSC Pacific/Natural Resources Canada (Sidney)
 * Sidney Laboratory (Centre for Plant Health)/Canadian Food Inspection Agency (North Saanich)

Historical

 * Craigdarroch Castle (Victoria)
 * Craigflower Manor and Craigflower Schoolhouse (Saanich)
 * Empress Hotel (Victoria)
 * Fort Rodd Hill and Fisgard Lighthouse / Parks Canada (Colwood)
 * Hatley Park (Colwood)
 * Ross Bay Cemetery (Victoria)
 * Harling Point Chinese Cemetery (Oak Bay)
 * Veteran's Cemetery (Esquimalt)
 * Chinatown (Victoria)
 * Fleming Beach, historical defence bunkers (Esquimalt)
 * Emily Carr House (Victoria)
 * Victoria High School (Victoria)
 * Camosun College (Saanich)
 * Beacon Hill Park (Victoria)
 * Helmcken House (Victoria)
 * Victoria Police Department Station Museum (150 years of policing artifacts) (Victoria)
 * Butchart Gardens (Central Saanich)

Political

 * Government House (Victoria)
 * Parliament Buildings (Victoria)
 * Victoria City Hall (Victoria)

Cultural

 * Art Gallery of Greater Victoria (Victoria)
 * British Columbia Aviation Museum (Sidney)
 * CFB Esquimalt Military Museum (Esquimalt)
 * Chinatown (Victoria)
 * Maltwood Art Gallery UVic University Centre (Saanich)
 * Royal British Columbia Museum & IMAX National Geographic Theatre (Victoria)
 * Shaw Ocean Discovery Centre (Sidney)
 * Thunderbird Park (Victoria, British Columbia)

Sports facilities
Golf
 * Bear Mountain Golf and Country Club (Langford)
 * Cedar Hill Golf Course (Saanich)
 * Gorge Vale Golf Club (Esquimalt)
 * Olympic View Golf Club (Langford and Colwood)
 * Royal Colwood Golf and Country Club (Colwood)
 * Royal Oak Golf Club (Saanich)
 * Uplands Golf Club (Oak Bay)
 * Victoria Golf Club (Oak Bay)
 * Highland Pacific Golf (Saanich)
 * Prospect Lake Golf Course (Saanich)
 * Cordova Bay Golf Course (Saanich)

Other
 * Gordon Head Recreation Centre (Saanich)
 * Cedar Hill Recreation Centre (Saanich)
 * Victoria City Rowing Club (Saanich)
 * Crystal Pool & Fitness Centre (Victoria)
 * George Pearkes Recreation Centre (Saanich)
 * Juan de Fuca Recreation Centre (Colwood)
 * Save-On-Foods Memorial Centre arena (Victoria)
 * Royal Victoria Yacht Club (Oak Bay)
 * Saanich Commonwealth Place (swimming pool and library-Greater Victoria Public Library) (Saanich)
 * Victoria Curling Club (Victoria)
 * Western Speedway (motor racing) (Langford)
 * Bear Mountain Arena (Colwood)
 * Royal Athletic Park (Victoria)
 * Centennial Stadium (track & field) (Saanich, University of Victoria)
 * Esquimalt Recreation Centre (Esquimalt)
 * Panorama Recreation Centre (North Saanich)
 * Oak Bay Recreation Centre (Oak Bay)
 * Eagle Ridge Community Centre (Langford)
 * City Centre Park (Langford)

Transportation and ports
Highways Greater Victoria is served by 3 provincial highways

Highway 17 Connects Greater Victoria to Victoria International Airport and BC Ferries service to Vancouver. A four lane highway with mix of freeway, expressway and arterial standards.

Highway 1 (Trans Canada Highway) Connects the core eastern municipalities to the western municipalities as a 12km freeway with 7 interchanges.

Highway 14 Connects Greater Victoria to Sooke, mostly a two lane highway.

Ports
 * Black Ball Ferries (to Port Angeles, Washington) (Victoria)
 * Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway terminus (Victoria)
 * Victoria Harbour (Victoria)
 * Victoria Inner Harbour Airport
 * Swartz Bay Ferry Terminal (BC Ferries to Tsawwassen, near Vancouver) (North Saanich)
 * Victoria International Airport (North Saanich)
 * Victoria Airport Water Aerodrome
 * Washington State Ferries (Sidney, to the San Juan Islands and Anacortes)
 * Downtown Victoria, Helijet helicopter service to Downtown Vancouver, (Victoria)

Print

 * Victoria News, local media
 * Saanich News, local media
 * Goldstream News Gazette, local media
 * Peninsula News Review, local media
 * Sooke News Mirror, local media
 * Oak Bay News, local media
 * Times Colonist, regional newspaper
 * Monday Magazine, entertainment weekly publication
 * The Nexus, Camosun College student newspaper
 * The Martlet, University of Victoria student newspaper
 * Black Press community newspapers
 * LookOut, newspaper of CFB Esquimalt Navy Base
 * Victoria Marketplace, monthly business profiles
 * Douglas Magazine, Victoria based business magazine

Social Media Communities

 * Victoria Buzz
 * Victoria News, local media
 * Saanich News, local media
 * Goldstream News Gazette, local media
 * Peninsula News Review, local media
 * Sooke News Mirror, local media
 * Oak Bay News, local media

AM Radio

 * CKMO 900 kHz
 * CFAX 1070 kHz

FM Radio

 * CBUX, Espace musique - 88.9
 * CBCV, CBC Radio One - 90.5 MHz
 * CJZN 91.3 MHz - "The Zone @ 91-3"
 * CBU, CBC Radio 2 - 92.1 MHz
 * CIOC 98.5 MHz - "The Ocean"
 * CKKQ 100.3 MHz - "100.3 The Q!"
 * CFUV 101.9 MHz - CFUV, University of Victoria
 * CHTT 103.1 MHz - "Kiss FM"
 * CHBE 107.3 MHz - "Virgin Radio"
 * CILS 107.9 MHz - "Francophonics"

Television

 * Channel 6: CHEK (Independent)
 * Cable 4: SHAW (Shaw TV)
 * Channel 53, Cable 12: CIVI (CTV 2)

Regional organisations

 * AVI Health and Community Services (AVI)
 * Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce
 * Greater Victoria Film Commission
 * Greater Victoria Art Gallery
 * Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition
 * Greater Victoria Public Library
 * Island Sexual Health
 * Peers Victoria Resources Society
 * University of Victoria Students' Society (UVSS)
 * Victoria Pride Society

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Greater Victoria


text:
Carlos Zambrano

Carlos Alberto Zambrano Matos (born June 1, 1981), nicknamed "Big Z" or "El Toro", is a Venezuelan former professional baseball pitcher. He played in Major League Baseball (MLB) from 2001 to 2012 for the Chicago Cubs and Miami Marlins. Zambrano, who stands 6 ft and weighs 275 lb, was signed by the Cubs as a free agent in 1997 and made his debut in 2001.

After being used in both starting and relief duties, he enjoyed his first full season as a starter in 2003, finishing with a 13–11 record, 168 strikeouts and a 3.11 ERA.

Zambrano is known as one of the best hitting pitchers of recent times. He was a switch-hitter with a career .238 batting average with 24 home runs, 71 RBIs and a slugging percentage of .396. The 24 home runs are the most ever by a Cubs pitcher. He also tied with Ferguson Jenkins for the club record for home runs by a pitcher in a single season, hitting six in 2006. Zambrano was called on to pinch hit 20 times in his career and won a Silver Slugger Award three times for his hitting.

Zambrano was the only National League pitcher to win at least 13 games in each year from 2003 to 2008. In 2006, he became the first player from Venezuela to lead the National League in wins.

2001–02 seasons
Zambrano was called up to the Cubs and pitched in his first game on August 20, 2001, starting against the Milwaukee Brewers at Wrigley Field in the second game of a double header. Zambrano started the game well, retiring nine of the first ten batters faced. He ran into difficulties in the fourth inning, and was removed before getting any outs in the fifth. He was charged with seven earned runs, walked four batters, and threw just 74 pitches.

One month later, on September 20, Zambrano earned his first big-league victory by finishing out the fifth inning against the Houston Astros. Zambrano pitched just two-thirds of an inning in relief of Juan Cruz, and was just 20 years old. He played 6 games making 1 start with a 1–2 record and a 15.26 ERA. Zambrano did not have any additional starts in the season, and the Cubs finished in third place with an 88–74 record.

Zambrano started the 2002 season at the Triple-A Iowa Cubs, but was quickly called up to the big leagues where he was dispatched to the bullpen and pitched in sixteen games during the first three months of the season. On July 1, 2002, Zambrano started against the Florida Marlins, taking a struggling Jason Bere's spot in the rotation. Zambrano logged sixteen starts for the Cubs, recording four wins and eight losses. At times he showed immense potential, including eight innings of shutout ball against the Milwaukee Brewers on September 4. Zambrano did struggle with control, logging 63 walks in just over a hundred innings of work. Overall, he finished the season with a 4–8 record and a 3.66 ERA in 32 games (16 starts). The Cubs posted a disappointing 67–95 record for the season, finishing in fifth place.

2003 season
Zambrano maintained his position in the Cubs starting rotation in 2003 and started 32 games with a 3.11 ERA and 13 wins in the fourth spot in the rotation, behind Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, and Matt Clement. The Cubs won the National League Central division, and were one win away from going to the World Series before being defeated by the Florida Marlins. The following year, Zambrano improved his statistics by lowering his ERA to 2.75 and increasing his strikeout total to 188. His record was the best on the Cubs staff that year, compiling a 16–8 record.

On August 22, 2003, Zambrano started against Curt Schilling and the Arizona Diamondbacks. While Schilling pitched a strong game and recorded 14 strikeouts, it was Zambrano that received the attention as he took a no-hitter into the eighth inning. Zambrano got the first two batters out before Shea Hillenbrand broke up the no-hitter with an infield single down the third-base line. The play was very close at first, with TV replays indicating that the call may have been blown by first base umpire Bill Miller. Zambrano retired the next three batters (which would have been the final three outs) before giving up two more hits in the game. The previous no-hitter for the Cubs was thrown in 1972 by Milt Pappas.

Zambrano got his first post-season start on October 1 in Atlanta against the Braves in game two of the NLDS. He pitched 5.2 innings, giving up eleven hits and three runs. The last hit by Rafael Furcal bounced off of Zambrano's leg, and he was removed from the game as a precaution. The Cubs did come back to tie the game in the eighth inning, with Zambrano getting a no-decision. The Cubs won the series 3–2, with Zambrano seeing no additional action.

Zambrano was the starter in the first game of the NLCS at Wrigley Field on October 7. While the Cubs spotted him a first inning 4–0 lead, he was unable to hold it, giving up five earned runs in six innings, including three home runs in the top of the third inning. The Cubs did come back, with a dramatic two-run home run by Sammy Sosa in the bottom of the ninth to tie the game, but the Marlins won the game in 11 innings 9–8. Zambrano got his third chance for a post-season victory as the starter in the fifth game in Miami. Once again, Zambrano wasn't sharp, giving up four walks, five hits, and two earned runs in just five innings, along with the loss. Josh Beckett for the Marlins had a magnificent outing, throwing a two-hitter sending the series back to Chicago. The Cubs would end up losing the series to the eventual-World Series champ Marlins after a deciding 7 games.

2004 season
On May 7, Zambrano produced another fantastic start, permitting only 2 hits against the Colorado Rockies. Zambrano retired the first 14 batters he faced until giving up a single to Matt Holliday. Only 97 pitches were thrown on the afternoon for the victory, with Colorado managing to hit just four of them out of the infield on a breezy, cold day at Wrigley. Zambrano continued his brilliance in his next start against the Dodgers, stringing together an additional eight innings without giving up an earned run. Through his first fourteen starts of the season, Zambrano had posted an 8–2 record, with quality starts in twelve of the games. His early season performance also earned him his first trip to the All-Star game where he pitched one inning in relief.

Some of his most memorable starts have been against the rival St. Louis Cardinals. The first was on May 2 when he threw seven shutout innings, and Zambrano registered 12 strikeouts before being lifted in the 8th inning for a pinch hitter. The Cubs eventually lost, 1–0.

The next was on July 19, where he and Jim Edmonds built upon the rivalry between two Midwestern teams. In the first inning, Edmonds was hit by a pitch to load the bases. In the fourth inning, Edmonds connected for a home run, and watched the ball go over the fence from home plate. An agitated Zambrano yelled at Edmonds as he crossed the plate, but the night was far from over. In his next at bat in the sixth inning, Zambrano struck Edmonds out on three pitches, and wagged his finger at Edmonds on his way to the dugout. In the eighth inning with the score tied, Scott Rolen hit a two-out, two-run home run to break a 3–3 tie. Edmonds was the next batter, whom Zambrano immediately hit with a pitch and was ejected from the game. Zambrano indicated that it was not intentional, but Rolen and manager Tony La Russa did not agree.

Zambrano was awarded the NL Pitcher of the Month for September. In his five starts during the month, Zambrano posted a 4–0 record over 35$2⁄3$ innings, giving up only four earned runs. It wasn't enough for the Cubs as they finished with a late season losing streak, and missed the playoffs.

In 2004, Zambrano led his team in ERA (2.75, fourth in the league), won 16 games (tied with teammate Greg Maddux), collected 188 strikeouts, and led the league in hit batsmen (20). He was also selected as an All-Star for the first time in his career.

2005 season
With injuries to key starters, and Zambrano's improving game, Zambrano was named the opening day starter for the Cubs. Zambrano was cautious about the opportunity, but was less cautious about arguing balls and strikes with home plate umpire Dale Scott after being pulled in the fifth inning and was eventually ejected. Two starts later, Zambrano gave up one hit but left in the eighth inning after throwing 111 pitches. He had cramps at the beginning of the game that concerned some Cubs fans still wondering about the other starters.

Continuing to build on the rivalry with the Cardinals, Zambrano turned in good performances once again in 2005. The first was on April 20, facing Jeff Suppan in St. Louis. Zambrano gained the victory pitching within one out of a complete game and had his first career triple. He returned to St. Louis again on July 22 to face ace Chris Carpenter. Zambrano turned in another excellent performance, striking out 12 and giving up only three hits over nine complete innings. St. Louis picked up the victory in extra innings on a David Eckstein squeeze play. The Cardinals made the trip to Chicago on August 12, starting Jason Marquis against Zambrano. Once again Zambrano gained the victory, this time pitching six shutout innings before leaving with tightness in his back A final start against the rivals was completed on September 18 as a rematch with Carpenter, with similar results as Zambrano pitched a complete game, giving up two earned runs and gaining the victory, his third of the season against the Cardinals. The final results for the four games: three victories, no defeats, four earned runs, and averaging over eight innings a start.

Zambrano witnessed a strange injury surface early in the season that was first diagnosed as "tennis elbow" but was later traced to his use of the internet to stay in contact with relatives in Venezuela.

On August 7, in just the fourth meeting of pitchers with the same last name since 2000, Víctor Zambrano of the New York Mets outdueled Carlos Zambrano in front of an attendance of 40,321 fans at Shea Stadium, pitching the New York Mets to a 6–1 win and a sweep of the three-game series. Both Zambranos entered with 42 career wins, the second time in Major League history that opposing starters with the same last name came in with matching victory totals, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. The other was on June 15, 1944, when Red Barrett of the Boston Braves and Dick Barrett of the Philadelphia Phillies each had 19 career wins. Like the Barretts, Víctor and Zambrano obviously share a double feat, but the similarities do not end there. The Zambranos were born in Venezuela, both throw with their right arm, both switch hit, and both wear No. 38. Beside this, it was the fourth time in modern Major League history that starting pitchers with a last name beginning with Z faced each other, according to ESPN. Víctor and Carlos Zambrano have both faced Barry Zito of the San Francisco Giants.

Zambrano had an excellent year hitting, with a .300 batting average and one home run. Zambrano finished the season sixth in the National League in strikeouts (202), tenth in earned run average (3.26), and third in winning percentage (70%, with a record of 14–6), seventh in WHIP (1.15), tenth in strikeouts per nine innings (8.14), and ninth in innings pitched (223$1⁄3$).

2006 season
For the second consecutive season, Zambrano was named the Cubs opening day starter, and with similar results from the previous year. In his first start of 2006, Zambrano was wild, issuing five walks, and five earned runs without getting through the fifth inning. The Cubs did score runs posting 16 in the victory.

After a poor opening game, the Cubs did not give Zambrano much offensive support in his next six starts, providing less than two runs a game. This led to Zambrano going winless until May 10, even though he pitched four quality starts in his first seven. On June 5, Zambrano made another bid for a no-hitter against the Astros in Houston. Zambrano had a perfect game go one out into the eighth inning before Preston Wilson hit a single. I made one mistake today and I did pay for it. It cost me the no-no. In addition to an excellent pitching performance, Zambrano hit a three-run home run in the second inning, his first of the season.

Zambrano went to his second All-Star Game during the 2006 season. He was slated to pitch two innings in the game, however, he had to sit out the game after suffering a minor injury when he was accidentally hit by White Sox third base coach Joey Cora's fungo bat during pre-game warmups. Zambrano peaked during the month of July, posting a perfect 6–0 record for the month, the first time a Cubs pitcher had recorded as many victories since 1979 when Rick Reuschel recorded seven in a month. He also was a star at the plate, hitting two home runs during the six games. Included in the month was a two-hit, ten strikeout, eight inning, 123 pitch performance against the Astros. Zambrano finished out the month with a 6–3 victory over the arch-rival Cardinals, where he bested Chris Carpenter. While the Cubs were far out of contention for a playoff spot, Zambrano continued with a positive attitude. Zambrano was rewarded with his second National League Pitcher of the Month award for his July efforts.

Wildness did impact Zambrano's ability to throw complete games based on the number of pitches required to get deep into the game. On August 14, he shut out the Astros through eight innings on just four hits, but he also gave up seven walks, hit a batter, and recorded a wild pitch. He also needed 121 pitches to get through eight innings, and was replaced by closer Ryan Dempster in the ninth to finish the game.

In his 30th start of the season on September 4, Zambrano suffered a setback leaving the game early in the second inning with lower back stiffness, but an MRI indicated no significant disc injuries. Zambrano gave up four hits and four walks before leaving in the shortest start in his career. Zambrano avoided a trip to the disabled list, but was skipped in his next two starts. He pitched again on September 17 against the Reds. Cub fans were relieved to see him pitch seven scoreless innings, and not showing any signs of the injury from his previous outing.

He finished the 2006 season with a 16–7 record, 210 strikeouts, a 3.41 ERA, and an MLB-leading 115 walks. Despite the Cubs finishing with the worst record in the National League, 2006 was a transformative year for Zambrano, as he thrived under the pressure of assuming the number-one role in the Cubs' rotation as the former aces apparent, Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, were incapacitated for the vast majority of the season.

2007 season
Based on his tenure with the MLB, Zambrano was eligible for free agency at the end of the 2007 season. Originally, Zambrano indicated that he needed to have a new contract signed before the start of the season, but it appeared that a deal was almost in place, so his agent extended the deadline to go into the season. The contract was close to being done, but then the sale of the team was announced, and all talks were put on hold. Zambrano ultimately signed a five-year, US$91.5 million contract on August 17, 2007.

After his last start of the 2006 season where the Cubs dropped to 30 games below .500, Zambrano identified the need for quality pitching to be added before the next season. The Cubs management added Ted Lilly and Jason Marquis in the off-season as part of a $300 million spending spree. After the acquisitions, Zambrano speculated on the fortunes for the 2007 season, declaring that he was to win the Cy Young Award and the Cubs would win the World Series.

Zambrano and the Cubs start to the season was anything but predicted. In Zambrano's first five starts, only one was a quality start with Zambrano posting a 6.91 ERA with 19 walks and 7 home runs allowed in just 28.1 innings. The Cubs did not fare much better, posting a 10–14 record in April. After a difficult game against Cincinnati where they blew a big early lead, Cubs manager Lou Piniella began to show a little frustration on the inconsistency being shown early in the season by Big-Z and the team.

One cause for his struggles compared to previous years was trouble with the first inning. After giving up three first-inning runs in a loss on May 10, Zambrano described the challenge as being related to bad luck and control.

Zambrano made some changes in his delivery with Cubs pitching coach Larry Rothschild and turned in a stellar performance in New York yielding only one run while providing eight strong innings. The best I felt as far as command and throwing the ball anywhere. I’ve been working in the bullpen with Larry. Hopefully, this can be the start of a good streak.

In his next start, Zambrano faced the cross-town rival White Sox at Wrigley. Zambrano did not get much support as Alfonso Soriano misplayed a foul ball in the second inning, extending the inning by an out which cost two runs, and Neal Cotts in the bullpen gave up a grand-slam in the seventh inning with two outs which charged back three addition runs. The official statistics looked poor as he was charged with seven earned runs, however it was not as poor of an outing as the box score recorded.

Zambrano continued to improve his performance in his following performance in Los Angeles against the Los Angeles Dodgers. He indicated his control issues were improving, and got ahead of hitters early in the count. I was feeling good. I was able to throw strikes and that was the key. I threw a lot of first-pitch strikes and that helped me a lot. When you make your pitches and attack the strike zone, you're going to win games.

On June 1, 2007, Michael Barrett and Cubs pitcher Zambrano got into an altercation in the Cubs dugout. The dispute stemmed from a passed ball and errant throw (on the same play) by Barrett in the previous half inning that allowed a run to score and contributed to the unraveling of Zambrano who ended up allowing six earned runs on thirteen hits in five innings. Shortly after the controversy, he went on to win his next two starts. Zambrano came close to pitching a no hitter on June 16. However, he fell short of his goal in the eighth inning, when an infield single broke up the no-hitter. Zambrano would later lose the game 1–0 on a solo home run by the Padres' Russell Branyan.

He finished July with 5–1 record, which was the best in the league. He became the first pitcher to win fourteen games in 2007, and won the "National League Pitcher of the Month" in July. After winning the award, Zambrano began to struggle throughout August. He started the month by earning a no decision on August 3, after leaving the game early due to dehydration. He recorded his one thousandth strike-out during his subsequent start, but proceeded to lose the game. Zambrano went winless in August, despite signing a rich multi-year contract with the Cubs. He started September by failing to win a game against the Los Angeles Dodgers. Zambrano, who only lasted four innings, was booed by Wrigley Field's audience as he left the field. In a post game interview, he retaliated at fans by stating, "I thought these were the greatest fans in baseball, but they showed me today that they only care about themselves. That's not fair, when you are struggling, you want to feel like you have their support. I don't accept their reaction". He apologized for making the remarks the following day.

Despite failing to win the Cy Young Award as he predicted, Zambrano rebounded from a winless August with a 4–2 record in the final month of the season while solidifying his season ERA below 4.00 courtesy of consecutive scoreless outings in his final two starts. He finished the regular season with a career-high in both games started and wins, with a record of 18–13 in 34 starts while living up to his expectations as the staff's workhorse by pitching at least 200 innings for the fifth consecutive season. He also led the NL with walks issued, totaling 101 walks.

Zambrano started Game 1 of the 2007 NLDS against the Arizona Diamondbacks but left after only six innings and 85 pitches because Cubs manager Lou Piniella planned to bring the right-hander back on three days’ rest in Game 4. It was a failed tactic, as the Cubs lost in three games, with Piniella's Game 1 move to be "questioned for years".

2008 season
Zambrano started the 2008 season by compiling a 12–4 record with a 2.76 ERA through July 27. At the plate, he had a batting average of .354 through September 14. Zambrano also had a four-hit game against the Pittsburgh Pirates on May 23, making him the first Cubs pitcher since Lew Burdette in 1964 to accomplish this feat. On June 21, the Cubs placed Zambrano on the 15-day disabled list (retroactive to June 19), because of a right shoulder strain. In his return from the DL on July 4, Zambrano pitched six shutout innings and recorded the victory in the Cubs' 2–1 win over the St. Louis Cardinals. On July 7, Zambrano was one of seven Chicago Cubs players announced as participants of the 2008 MLB All-Star Game. On July 19 he set the club record for home runs by a pitcher, when he hit a seventh inning homer in Houston off Wandy Rodríguez. On August 26, Zambrano set two records for hitting proficiency by a pitcher. His fourth-inning RBI single gave him a 13-start hitting streak, breaking Johnny Sain's record of 12, and also marked the eighth straight start in which he had an RBI, breaking the record of seven set by Wes Ferrell. (Note, however, that the hitting streak was not accrued over 13 consecutive starts, as the designated hitter rule was in effect in an interleague game during the streak.) Both streaks would end in his next start.

On September 14, in his first start back after missing two starts due to rotator cuff tendinitis, Zambrano no-hit the Houston Astros 5–0. The game was moved to Miller Park in Milwaukee because of damage in Houston due to Hurricane Ike, making it the first neutral site no-hitter. Zambrano only allowed two base-runners, as he walked Michael Bourn in the fourth inning and hit Hunter Pence in the fifth inning. It was the first no-hitter by a Cubs pitcher since Milt Pappas did so September 2, 1972, breaking the longest drought of any team to have already had a no-hitter. Zambrano gave up one walk and threw 10 strikeouts over 110 pitches in his 14th win of the season and his 95th all time.

2009 season
On May 27, 2009, Zambrano was ejected in the seventh inning of a game against the Pittsburgh Pirates after an argument with umpire Mark Carlson on a call of safe at home plate. With the Cubs up, 2–1, and Nyjer Morgan representing the tying run at third base, Zambrano's pitch got away from Cubs catcher Geovany Soto. While Soto chased after the ball, Zambrano raced Morgan to the plate and tried to apply the tag, but Carlson called Morgan safe, contending that Morgan's left hand got past Zambrano. After a brief argument, Zambrano appeared to bump Carlson and was ejected. Zambrano then threw a ball into left field, hurled his glove into the dugout and repeatedly struck a recently installed Gatorade dispenser in the dugout with a baseball bat, while Cubs manager Lou Piniella tried to calm him down. Zambrano was suspended six games without pay and fined $3,000 by Major League Baseball. Zambrano's troubles continued when he missed the team's flight to Atlanta. The issue was resolved internally, within the Cubs organization. During his next start, Zambrano struck-out seven batters, and hit the game-winning home run en route to his 100th career win. After the game, reporters began to inquire if Zambrano could possibly win 300 games during his career. He replied that he tentatively planned to retire when his contract with the Cubs expired, claiming, "I want to help this team and do everything possible to win with this team. After five years, or four years, or whatever it is, that's it. I just don't want to play. I want to stay at home and see my daughters grow up and be with my family more."

2010 season
Zambrano's opening day start was his sixth consecutive, a Cubs record; however, he gave up eight runs in one and one-third innings, including a three-run home run to Jason Heyward in his first career at-bat. He was charged with the loss as the Cubs lost the game, 16–5. Zambrano bounced back in his next start against the Cincinnati Reds, however. Zambrano pitched seven strong innings, giving up three earned runs, six hits, and striking out nine batters en route to his first victory of the season. On April 21, 2010, The Cubs moved Zambrano to the bullpen. On May 30, 2010, the Cubs decided to move Zambrano back to the rotation. He made his first start on June 4, against the Astros. In his first four starts after returning to the rotation, Zambrano was 2–2 with a 3.09 ERA.

On June 25, 2010, against the Chicago White Sox at U.S. Cellular Field, Zambrano allowed up four runs in the first inning. He then proceeded to mount a furious tirade in the Cubs' dugout. Cameras showed Zambrano appearing to yell at Derrek Lee, whom the pitcher apparently blamed for failing to field a sharply-hit ball off the bat of Juan Pierre, resulting in a lead-off double. The Cubs coaching staff had to separate the two players and manager Lou Piniella opted not to send Zambrano back to the mound in the second inning. Cubs general manager Jim Hendry announced that Zambrano would be suspended indefinitely for his behavior in the game. The next day, Lou Piniella announced that when Zambrano returned, he would be moved back to the bullpen. It was later confirmed that Zambrano would undergo anger management before returning with the team. The Cubs then returned Zambrano to the rotation for the second time where he did not give up more than two runs in any start since his return from the bullpen on August 9. Over that time, he allowed only 11 total runs (9 earned) in 50 innings, and pulled his ERA down to 3.75. On August 30, 2010 against the Pittsburgh Pirates, Zambrano improved to 3–0 since his return to the pitching rotation, striking out seven. Additionally, he recorded his 21st career home run with a two-run shot, increasing his club record for home runs by a pitcher. On September 15 at Busch Stadium, he once again faced Cardinal's ace Chris Carpenter and out-dueled him throwing 104 pitches over six innings giving up just 2 runs (1 earned). He has now won 5 consecutive starts and 6 decisions overall since returning to the rotation. Zambrano pitched for the first time with his mother present against the San Diego Padres at San Diego on Monday, September 27, 2010. He gave up no runs over 7 innings and won the game. His record now sits at 10–6 with a 3.36 ERA. Zambrano is now 7–0 in 9 starts with an ERA of 1.07 (seven earned runs in 59 innings) since his return to the rotation on Aug. 14. Zambrano finished the season 11–6 with an ERA of 3.33. He was 11–5 with an ERA of 3.19 in 20 starts and pitched 113 innings in those starts. He was 0–1 with a 4.32 ERA in 16 bullpen appearances spanning 16 and two-thirds innings. For the entire season, Zambrano gave up just seven home runs.

2011 season
Zambrano lost the role as the Chicago Cubs opening day starter to Ryan Dempster, but did record a quality start in his first outing as the Cubs number 2 starter going 6-plus innings and giving up three runs. He also experienced some cramps in this game, which led to a premature exit even though he had thrown 99 pitches. In his 4th start of the year, Zambrano dueled the San Diego Padres Tim Stauffer and pitched 8 scoreless innings at Wrigley Field. He displayed better than average control, giving up just one walk and striking out 10 with 3 hits. He received a no-decision for his efforts as the Cubs were unable to score while he was on the mound. The Cubs eventually won the game in the 10th inning on Tyler Colvin's game-winning single. Zambrano's 10-game overall win streak came to an end on Sunday, April 24 after a rough first inning against the Dodgers lead to 5 runs. Zambrano finished the game, giving up 6 runs on 8 hits in just 5 innings—his shortest outing of the season. Zambrano faced the Dodgers again on May 4, this time at Dodger Stadium. He pitched well; going 8 innings, allowing one run on 5 hits, and receiving the win. On the heels of a road win against the Arizona Diamondbacks, Zambrano's road winning streak stood at 10. Another win against the Los Angeles Dodgers extended the streak to 11, but Zambrano was tagged for a loss against the Cincinnati Reds on May 16. On August 6, 2011, again against the Reds, Zambrano hit his 23rd career home run, making him tied for ninth on the list of MLB's all-time leading home run-hitting pitchers.

On August 12, 2011, against the Atlanta Braves at Turner Field, Zambrano allowed five home runs. After the fifth home run he allowed, he threw two inside pitches at Chipper Jones. Zambrano was subsequently ejected from the game by home plate umpire Tim Timmons. This would turn out to be Zambrano's final appearance with the Cubs. Following his ejection, Zambrano cleaned out his locker from the visiting team's clubhouse, and told the team's personnel that he was retiring. The next day, on August 13, the Cubs suspended Zambrano for 30 days, preventing him from performing or attending any activity with the club, as well as having his pay suspended for a period of 30 days. Zambrano later apologized to the Cubs and their fans, saying he wanted to "remain a Cub for life" and that his comments about retiring were said out of frustration. He appealed for a shorter suspension through the MLBPA. On September 2, the club announced that Zambrano would not participate for the remainder of the 2011 season. Cub teammates did not express sympathy for his plight, with veteran pitcher Ryan Dempster remarking, "He's made his bed. Let him sleep in it. It's not like it's something new." As Zambrano spent the rest of the 2011 season on the restricted list, he finished the year 9–7 with a 4.82 ERA in 24 starts.

Miami Marlins
On January 5, 2012, the Cubs traded Zambrano to the Miami Marlins in return for pitcher Chris Volstad.

His first start as a member of the Marlins was against the Cincinnati Reds. He pitched six innings with six strikeouts, allowed four hits, including a home run in a no decision. In that same game, Zambrano also got his first base hit as a Marlin. After an 0–2 start in his first four starts, Zambrano got his first win as a Marlin against the Houston Astros. He pitched a complete game shutout with nine strikeouts, a walk, and only three hits. Zambrano finished the 2012 season with a 7–10 record with a 4.49 ERA.

Philadelphia Phillies
On May 15, 2013, Zambrano signed a one-year minor league contract with the Philadelphia Phillies. Despite a highly successful AAA stint, he was released on July 25 after going 4–2, with a 3.51 ERA.

On September 5, 2014, he officially announced his retirement from baseball.

Leones de Yucatán (2018)
In July 2018, Zambrano came out of retirement to pitch for the Leones de Yucatán of the Mexican League. He made 7 starts, going 2–1 with a 5.18 ERA, before he was released on August 14, 2018.

Chicago Dogs
On April 16, 2019, Zambrano signed with the Chicago Dogs of the American Association of Independent Professional Baseball.

He ended up going 4–1 with a 5.16 ERA.

Zambrano again announced his retirement on January 17, 2020.

Pitching style
Zambrano had six pitches. His most-used pitch was a heavy sinker at 88–92 mph designed to get ground balls. His next-most used pitch was a cutter (88–91), followed by a splitter (80–85). He also threw a four-seam fastball (90–91), slider (79–82), and curveball (high 60s–low 70s). The only major variation in his approach to right-handers and left-handers was that he threw the splitter much more to lefties. That pitch was a favorite with two strikes against lefties, while he threw the cutter most often in those counts against righties.

The combative Zambrano was known for being highly emotive on the mound, often antagonizing opponents and teammates alike. He incurred lengthy team suspensions in June 2010 and August 2011 after unleashing tirades in the wake of bad pitching performances. In another incident, he was suspended six games and fined $3,000 by Major League Baseball for arguing with umpire Mark Carlson and firing a ball into the outfield. In other instances, he quarreled—and physically fought—with teammates for what Zambrano considered their poor effort or performance.

title: Carlos Zambrano


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Intermodal cargo

Dicdef. RickK 03:36, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Ditto. Delete unless someone can expand on it. - Lucky 6.9 06:21, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete unless expanded -- Chris 73 | Talk 07:34, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seems hard to imagine how this will go beyond dic.def.  Even then it would probably be better placed as part of an article about freight, import/export or something of that nature. --bodnotbod 08:32, May 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not encyclopedic. Besides, we already have this: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Intermodal Alcarillo 14:16, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. DJ Clayworth 15:28, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. john 03:59, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Too bad, because there are some really interesting political issues that could have been picked up on here Denni 23:24, 2004 May 5 (UTC)
 * Delete. Changed the referring link. Intermodal transport is a significant and much-studied topic in the freight industry, but any expansion of Intermodal cargo should probably be in Intermodal, currently a redirect to Wiktionary. --Zigger 16:25, 2004 May 6 (UTC)
 * Delete. Cribcage 03:32, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. JFW | T@lk  19:07, 9 May 2004 (UTC)


text:
Ashtavakra Gita

The Ashtavakra Gita (Sanskrit: अष्टावक्रगीता; IAST: aṣṭāvakragītā) or Song of Ashtavakra is a classical Hindu text in the form of a dialogue between the sage Ashtavakra and Janaka, king of Mithila.

Dating
Radhakamal Mukerjee, an Indian social scientist, dated the book to the period immediately after the Hindu scripture Bhagavad Gita (600 BCE according to Mukerjee; commonly dated to ca. 2nd century BCE), at c. 500–400 BCE. J. L. Brockington, emeritus professor of Sanskrit at the University of Edinburgh, places the Ashtavakra Gita much later, supposing it to have been written either in the eighth century CE by a follower of Adi Shankara, or in the fourteenth century during a resurgence of Shankara's teaching. Sri Swami Shantananda Puri suggests that since the book contains the seed of the theory of non-creation Ajata Vada developed later by Gaudapada in Mandookya Karika, this book comes from a period prior to that of Gaudapada (6th century CE) and hence prior to Shankara.

Identification of Ashtavakra
Ashtavakra is probably identical to the holy sage with the same name who appears in Mahabharata, though the connection is not clearly stated in any of the texts. Mukherjee identifies Janaka as the father of Sita and disciple of the sage Yajnavalkya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Janaka is also depicted as a king who has attained perfection in vedas.

Overview
Ashtavakra Gita is a dialogue between Ashtavakra and Janaka on the nature of Self/Atman, reality and bondage. It offers a radical version of non-dualist philosophy. The Gita insists on the complete unreality of the external world and absolute oneness of existence. It does not mention any morality or duties, and therefore is seen by commentators as 'godless'. It also dismisses names and forms as unreal and a sign of ignorance.

In a conversation between Janaka and Ashtavakra, pertaining to the deformity of his crooked body, Ashtavakra explains that the size of a temple is not affected by how it is shaped, and the shape of his own body does not affect himself (or Atman). The ignorant man's vision is shrouded by names and forms, but a wise man sees only the Self: "You are really unbound and action-less, self-illuminating and spotless already. The cause of your bondage is that you are still resorting to stilling the mind. (I.15) You are unconditioned and changeless, formless and immovable, unfathomable awareness, imperturbable- such consciousness is un-clinging. (I.17) You are not bound by anything. What does a pure person like you need to renounce? Putting the complex organism to rest, you can go to your rest. (V.1)"

Structure
The book comprises 20 chapters:
 * I Saksi - Vision of the Self as the All-pervading Witness
 * II Ascaryam - Marvel of the Infinite Self Beyond Nature
 * III Atmadvaita - Self in All and All in the Self
 * IV Sarvamatma - Knower and the Non-knower of the Self
 * V Laya - Stages of Dissolution of Consciousness
 * VI Prakrteh Parah - Irrelevance of Dissolution of Consciousness
 * VII Santa - Tranquil and Boundless Ocean of the Self
 * VIII Moksa - Absolute and Eternal Freedom from all kinds of self assumed Bondages.
 * IX Nirveda - Indifference
 * X Vairagya - Dispassion
 * XI Cittrupa - Self as Pure and Radiant Intelligence
 * XII Svabhava - Ascent of Contemplation
 * XIII Yathasukham - Transcendent Bliss
 * XIV Isvara - Natural Dissolution of the Mind
 * XV Tattvam - Unborn Self or Brahman
 * XVI Svasthya - Self-Abidance through Obliteration of the World
 * XVII Kaivalya - Absolute Aloneness of the Self
 * XVIII Jivanmukti - State of the being where the individual has attained salvation while being alive
 * XIX Svamahima - Majesty of the Self
 * XX Akincanabhava - Transcendence of the Self

Appreciation
The work was known, appreciated and quoted by Ramakrishna and his disciple Vivekananda, as well as Ramana Maharshi. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan refers to it with great respect. Osho called Ashtavakra Gita as Mahageeta.

Ashtavakra Gita continues to inspire people. The first musical form of Ashtavakra Gita Saksi I (Chapter 1) was set in the raga Svadhya by Composer Rajan.

Translations and commentaries

 * Lala Baij Nath(1907) opened the discourse of this Gita into the English language.
 * Swami Nityaswarupananda has written a word by word translation from 1929 to 1931.
 * Radhakamal Mukerjee (1889–1968) continued the discourse into English with his work posthumously published in 1971.
 * Scott R. Stroud (2004), wrote on the Astavakra Gita as a work of multivalent narrative.
 * The Heart of Awareness: A Translation of the Ashtavakra Gita (Shambhala Dragon Editions) translated by Thomas Byrom, 1990.
 * Swami Chinmayananda wrote a commentary on the Ashtavakra Gita, which has references to the Upanishads to help convey the meaning of the text.
 * John Richards published an English translation of the Ashtavakra Gita in 1997.
 * Osho has given commentary on Ashtavakra Gita in a long series of 91 discourses named as Ashtavakra Mahageeta, given in his Pune Ashram.
 * Sri Sri Ravi Shankar has given commentary on Ashtavakra Gita in Hindi and English.
 * Pujya Gurudevshri Rakeshbhai has given commentary on Ashtavakra Gita through 60 discourses totalling more than 116 hours.
 * The Book has also been translated into Urdu language with the title of Mehak-e-Agahi, 2021.
 * Alexandra David-Néel, translated the text from Sanskrit into French, title Astavakra Gîtâ, 1951.

Original text

 * In original Sanskrit as PDF
 * In original Sanskrit
 * In Devanagari
 * In Romanized Sanskrit
 * Ashtavakra Gita in Devanagari with English translation side by side
 * Ashtavakra Gita in Devanagari with English translation side by side

Translations

 * The Ultimate Reality Within ISBN 978-0-615-93228-6
 * Poetic translation of Ashtavakra Gita in Hindi by Dr Mridul Kirti
 * The Heart of Awareness, poetic translation by Thomas Byrom, pdf
 * Ashtavakra Gita Translation at Wikisource by John Richards
 * Ashtavakra Gita, translation by John Richards
 * John Richards translation
 * First in a series of 41 Discourses on Ashtavakra Gita, available for free downloading
 * Astavakra Samhita, translation by Swami Nityaswarupananda
 * Swami Nityaswarupananda (1940): AshTavakra Geeta, Sanskrit text with word-for-word translation, English rendering and comments''
 * Asthavakra Gita - Awareness is Everything. Translation and commentary by Mansoor (2010). ISBN 978-1-4467-1442-3
 * Swami Nityaswarupananda (1940): AshTavakra Geeta, Sanskrit text with word-for-word translation, English rendering and comments''
 * Asthavakra Gita - Awareness is Everything. Translation and commentary by Mansoor (2010). ISBN 978-1-4467-1442-3

 * audio books
 * Ashtavakra Gita English Audio Book
 * Ashtavakra Gita Hindi Audio Book
 * Ashtavakra Gita Marathi Audio Book
 * Translation by Ramana Maharshi (audiobook)

title: Ashtavakra Gita


text:
Talk:Alternative comics

Why does "indie comics" redirect to this article?
"Indie Comics" are comics that are self-published. "Alternative Comics" are comics that are not mainstream. They are not synonyms. Of course, the majority of indie comics are alternative comics, but not all. Plenty of alternative comics are put out by publishers like Darkhorse, Oni Press, Top Shelf, and even the arguably "mainstream" DC Comics (under their "Vertigo" and "Zuda" imprints). There's no mention of the phrase "indie comics" in this article at all. ButteredToast (talk) 10:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Elfquest
I wish to expand upon my reasoning for getting rid of the Elfquest image. While Elfquest is not completely a mainstream comic, I don't think its an image that really embodies the spirit of alternative comics. It still deals with a genera that is very common in comics, fantasy as opposed to alternative works which try to tackle generas outside of this. I hope you undertand my reasoning, and I might ask permission to upload and display a famous example that I feel embodies what alternative comics are about. (In particular I'd recommend the first graphic novel "A Contract with God" because of its historical significance to US alternative comics.

 * I agree with your resoning for removing Elfquest. How about a new image that shows a number of significant alternative comics? ike9898

While I agree that Elfquest may not be appropriate for the title image, I think it's fair to say that it, along with Cerebus, is probably the most prominent of the indy/alternative comics -- the Starblaze reprints were the first "graphic novels" to get into mall bookstores, and probably the first successful western comic to be strongly visually influenced by anime. It's easy to underestimate its novely and overstate its allegedly commonplace tropes -- the elves, for example, are painted more as noble savages than the aristocratic types of Tolkien.

 * I have an entirely different point of view about "alternative" comics, one that barely includes Elfquest, and I'm not sure how to negotiate it here. While no doubt Elfquest sold more copies than the other comics mentioned here, as measured by (my perception of) its influence on critics and other artists, it is not of great historic value.  But my POV assumes that the present state of the art of what we're talking about should refer to things like Acme Novelty Library, not manga. And to comics with pointedly "adult" themes. To my mind, titles like Maus, RAW, Weirdo, Love and Rockets, Eightball and Yummy Fur are each infinitely more prominent in this history than Elfquest, or than many of the comics that have been recently added to the description (the comics published by Epic, Escape, Pacific, etc.).  Anybody have a sense of how to reconcile this conflict? Are we talking about two seperate histories?--BTfromLA 06:01, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Elfquest is historically important as an alternative comic, primarily with regards to self-publishing; it was a first-waver. At a certain point it was Elfquest, Cerebus, First Kingdom and not much else, at least on the American scene. It's not a question of sales or artistic exploration (per se) but of envelope-pushing in the distribution arena. Note however, that this refers specifically to the original twenty-issue magazine size Elfquest series, not the Elfquest property as a whole. Also note that it was considered to have "adult themes" at the time, because the market as a whole was so much thinner. So yes, in a way, we are talking about two separate histories. Maybe more.24.165.210.213 08:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I think Elfquest illustrates why we need to differentiate between "alternative" and "independent" comics. Though these two arenas clearly overlap, "alernative" now clearly implies something more specific. Elfquest is paramount to the history of indy comics, but it is was only occasionally "alternative," at least in respect to its themes, adult material, etc.

 * Maybe it's time to split the article or make a clean differentiation between those comics that were created and released by independent publishers and those comics that focused on topics and subject matter that is alternative to the mainstream.

 * Maybe it's a problem of the category -- when we define something (like "alernative") by its relationship to something else, it's going to be incohesive and imply multiple "histories".

 * Good points, all. I suppose this is the sort of thing that should be wrangled over at WikiProject Comics, as it points to larger questions of organization: do we structure comics-related entries by marketing category, or chronology, or theme, or publisher, or physical format, etc. I'd think the goal would be to come up with something that is as simple and consistent as possible.

In hopes this will help to clarify those issues, I'm going to copy this discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics.--BTfromLA 18:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Personally I think Elfquest was alternative for it's time. It had science fiction, fantasy, sex, death, murder and other adult themes. Just because the art is pretty does not mean it wasn't alternative. But of course it was also Independent. I think it should be listed on both pages when an Indie Comics page happens. Independent comics "were" the alternative when they began.

Dump of addition made by User:219.93.174.101
This editor added a long series of short descriptions of comics creators; it was largely unencyclopedic and unwikified, it didn't follow the underground/alternative dichotomy we've established, and any information salvageable should be in any case added to the individual articles on creators. The dump follows. -leigh (φθόγγος)

Introduction (for non-comix readers) to creators and work emblematic of the altcomics movement
Robert Crumb: Founder of underground comics – Creator of characters such as Mr. Natural and Fritz the Cat. Severely attacked by feminists for his often misogynistic cartoons. The subject of Terry Zwigoff's award wining biopic/ documentary, 'Crumb' (which is produced by David Lynch) I have his works all in anthology format, including a signed and numbered hardcover collection. (Zap comix, My troubles with women)

Daniel Clowes : One of the greatest and most versatile artists and writers today… does everything from punk slapstick to lurid surrealism to VERY poignant naturalistic fiction to violent noir trillers. What ever he does, it’s always surprisingly original and genre-defying. Responsible for Ghost World, which you might have heard about, it adapted into a critically acclaimed movie (also directed by Terry Zwigoff, Clowes wrote the screenplay) three years ago. Clowes is Modern Literature at its finest. (Eightball, Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron, Ghost World, David Boring)

Joe Sacco: Journalist working in the comics medium, unique for his humanistic approach to journalism. Spends time in war-ridden countries and makes comics out of his experiences. Prior to this he has worked mostly in comedy and autobiography, even then his work was very political. (Palestine, Safe Area Gorazde)

Peter Bagge: Influential artist with an rubbery outrageous cartoony style, synonymous with the grunge movement in Seattle, Large body of work mostly revolves around cynical and misanthropic Gen X slackers, most particularly the semi biographical character, Buddy Bradley. Has since mellowed down and dabbled with humorous journalistic pieces and D.C comics (Did a short-lived – yet brilliant – series for DC called Sweatshop, an anti-establishment satire on the comics industry… how ironic.) A master of situational comedy. (HATE!, Neat Comix, Studs Kirby: The voice of the nation, Sweatshop)

Art Spiegelman: Best known for MAUS, a story about his father’s account of the holocaust, illustrated with all the characters as anthropomorphic mice. Very unsettling, not only because of the depiction of the sufferings of Jewish prisoners of war, but also his antagonistic yet understanding relationship with his father, a survivor of the war. A veteran of the underground, he edited the avant-garde comics anthology RAW in which MAUS was first serialized. Recently edited and published a collection of comics for children, Little Lit, and a Post 911 comic, in the shadow of no towers. (Maus, In the Shadow of No Towers)

Chris Ware: An obsessive-compulsive perfectionist of an artist, probably the greatest illustrator in the world. His work has to be seen to believed. Writes VERY depressing stories in contrast of his innocuously beautifully rendered drawings. Work first appeared in RAW has roots in the avant-garde, his comics are very experimental. (The Acme Novelty Library, Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid in the World)

Chester Brown: Minimalist Montreal based artist with a unique style. Best known for his autobiographical comics which deal with adolescent alienation and sexuality. Recently did a biographical comicbook based on a Canadian anarchist, Louis Riel, which I have yet to obtain. His shorter, less serious works can often be very weird. His first book, Ed The Happy Clown is about a Clown whose penis gets stuck on Ronald Regan’s head after it sticks in an anal-dimensional doorway(?!?!!) (Yummy Fur, The Playboy, I Never Liked You)

Seth: Sophisticated New Yorker-styled cartoonist outrageous for his comics UNsexiness. Draws comics about his nostalgic obsessions, senile old people, retired fan salesman and boring shit. Except the way he writes it is far from boring. They are very engaging and deep. Good friends with Chester brown, they draw each other as Characters in their autobio strips. (He’s only in his late 30s, not 75 like his comics suggest. (Palookaville, It’s a Good Life if you don’t Weaken, Clyde Fans)

Joe Matt: Humorous autobiographical cartoonist whose work is (although quite funny) also very disturbing … he’s on a pathway to self destruction. His ‘diary strips’ have so far recorded his violent fights with his girlfriend, his addiction to pornography, his various character flaws and his inevitable break-up with his girlfriend. Most disturbing is the pornography part… This guy thinks of nothing but porn all day long! Good friends with Chester and Seth, who are also characters in his autobio and has to bear his sad, deterioration ever since. (I think the three of them influenced each other to work in this genre) (Peepshow, The Poor Bastard, Fair Weather)

Harvey Pekar: Founder of autobiographical movement. Writes a series called American Splendor, about the plight of the working class in Cleveland. Which was made into a very good movie in the same name released last year. Frequently collaborates and is a good friend of Robert Crumb. A very intellectual literary enthusiast and Jazz collector, his comics range from mundane daily happenings to illustrated essays on his thoughts on authors/music/politics etc. (Amrican Splendor)

Art movement v publishing movement
The "Alternative" category is described here (correctly, in my view) as an art movement that grew out of the underground comix movement. But some of the stuff that was talked about here earlier (see Elfquest, above) about the "independent" (i.e., not Marvel or DC) publishers that emerged (and mostly died) in the 1980s is still here. I'd like to trim that out, or move it to an "independent comics publishers" entry, or some such. Many of these "independent" comics are "genre" comics that clearly were not part of the same underground-inspired movement that includes The Hernandez Brothers, Chester Brown, Dan Clowes, etc. While publishers (Fantagraphics in particular) are an important factor in the story of Alternative comics, I think it is most useful to focus on the qualities of the work, which include serious literary and artistic experimentation. Any objections if I take a stab at trimming what I see as the extraneous stuff? --BTfromLA 20:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dump the list
I've very tempted to remove the long list of Alternative Comics as it doesn't really serve any purpose. Perhaps it should be replaced with a survey of key creators / titles and the various 'schools' within Alt comics to give the reader a better flavour of the range covered?

Any objections?

Peteashton 05:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Lists of this type are problematic in Wikipedia. Every reader adds their favorite to the list of notables and soon it is enormous.  That being said, the lists really can be helpful to the reader.  If I didn't know anything about alternative comics, I would want the article to name some examples.  Maybe your suggested scheme would be better, but be careful not to make it to much like 'original research'.  I don't think it would be appropriate to class creators into different 'schools' if these schools are your own original classification system.  ike9898 16:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * POV in classification is a major issue, I grant you, but there are some trends that have been recorded elsewhere such as the Highwater Books and, um... I'll have a scour through my Comics Journals for some "year/decade in review" pieces and see what jumps out. Also anthologies tend to act as good markers in the development of alt-comic.

 * I should add that I don't in any way think this should be definitive - more a cursory survey that helps the reader dig deeper. Peteashton 22:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The best way to remove that silly long list is to create Category:Alternative comics. - Frankie (talk) 16:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

American Bias?
Some relevant non american comics are not cited in the article: the french magazine Métal Hurlant ('74-'87) and the italian magazines it:Il male ('78-'82), it:Cannibale ('77-'79) and Frigidaire ('80-'86). The most internationally know character/work from these italian magazines is RanXerox. --BMF81 12:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey man, WP:BOLD. ike9898 15:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * All right buddy :) --BMF81 17:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

 * In some sense, underground/alternative/independent comics were a largely American phenomenon in that there was, at least in the past, a major split between underground and later alternative comics and mainstream comic books and strips, largely enforced by a comics code and very narrow genre conventions. In Europe and Japan, where comics have always been considered a serious art form, this stark dichotomy didn't exist; there have always been "serious" comics in those countries. By European standards, North American alternative comics might not have ever seemed terribly non-mainstream to begin with. I could be wrong about this – if there was a strong non-mainstream comics movement in Europe or elsewhere, by all means add information about it to this article. Peter G Werner 02:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I probably should have looked up the links you listed, first. Métal Hurlant was the French predecessor to Heavy Metal, which has never considered part of "alternative comics". That was more of a predocessor to the kind of "alternative mainstream"/cyberpunk trend exemplafied by publishers like Image Comics and the like. Peter G Werner 02:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally I agree with this, and in my opinion many english wikipedia pages suffer from this problem. Thos who grew up in the UK reading comics in the 70s and 80s consider Crepax, Meobius etc alternative comics and I think to ignore them is wrong. 210.239.48.141 (talk) 08:32, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

All true. I'm going to mine a great compendia by Maurice Horn written in the 1970s which took a world approach, and see if there is a more complete, more inclusive and thereby more accurate perspective to bring to this article. After all, Liberatore, Crepax, Manara, Moebius and many, many others were a huge influence on comic book creators outside the mainstream, and thanks to Métal Hurlant's American counterpart Heavy Metal they were read/consumed in the US and Canada just as readily.(Sintauro (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC))

The Invisibles
I am not really familiar with The Invisibles, but I wonder if is really the type of comic described in this article. It was published by DC. Although its subject matter is not exactly 'mainstream', it still seems to be an adventure, good vs. evil thing. Do it belong on the list? ike9898 17:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, from what I have understood, although a traditional adventure comic on surface, its all-encompassing conspiracy theories are so far out, it couldn't be classified as anything else. 惑乱 分からん 16:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Regardless, it's published by respected yet mainstream Vertigo and by an acclaimed mainstream comic creator after he had already achieved fame. It's not alternative. (unsigned comment from user:70.112.133.72 )

Indie comics?
I notice that someone has created the 'indie comics' category. That seems inconsistent with the terminology used in wikipedia comics related articles. Opinions on renaming the category 'alternative comics'? Or deleting the category? ike9898 17:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What about renaming this entry to "Indie comics"? It'd save any confusion with Alternative Comics (publisher). I don't think we should delete the category. (Emperor 22:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC))
 * I think "alternative comics" is the preferred terminology. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 15:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Hiding T 10:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Alternative, independent, and creator-owned
There is an attempt through redirects to conflate "alternative comics" with "independent comics", and an attempt in the text to conflate "alternative comics" with "creator owned". Traditionally, these three terms reflected three very different aspects of comics. ---Nat Gertler (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Alternative" was a descriptor of the content, an alternative to what was viewed in the comics field as the mainstream.
 * "Independent" was a descriptor of the distribution; for a while, it could be summed up as being independent of the magazine distribution system, although even that got fuzzy, and eventually it seemed to largely boil down to "not Marvel, DC, Archie, Harvey, or Warren".
 * "Creator owned" is a descriptor of the copyright status, and the article tries to depict that as only a small and unidirectional difference from "alternative", the difference is actually large (plenty of significant creator-owned superhero works exist, certainly from the rise of Image on forward) and flows in all directions (Tales From The Closet, a clearly-alternative gay-themed soap opera, was not creator owned, for example.)
 * And a big section of the piece seems to be about self-published comics, which is a different axis again. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I take issue with the entire opening section's wording: '''Alternative comics defines a range of American comics that have appeared since the 1980s, following the underground comix movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Alternative comics present an alternative to "mainstream" superhero comics which in the past have dominated the US comic book industry. Alternative Comic Books span a wide range of genres, artistic styles, and subjects. Alternative comics are often published in small numbers as the author(s) deem fit. They are often published with less regard for regular distribution schedules. Many Alternative comics have variously been labelled post-underground, independent, auteur, small press, new wave, creator-owned, or art comics. Many self-published minicomics also fall under the alternative umbrella. There is a slight difference between alternative comics and creator-owned. Not all creator owned comics are alternative comics because they may focus on the superhero genre.'''

My objections are:
 * 1) just because a given title doesn't have superheroes in it, doesn't make it an alternative comic; certainly not to the mainstream of comic book publishing: E.g. I would not qualify any of Harvey Comics' titles like Richie Rich, or any of the various Archie Comics line of comic books as alternative comics; they are in fact more mainstream that the most well known superhero titles today.
 * 2) It should be noted that Alternative comics were not all conceived in direct opposition to mainstream comics, many simply happen to be outside of the mainstream, conventional arena simply due to their subject matter and approach (i.e. Jeff Smith's "Bone," or even an arguable "superhero title" like James O'Barr's "The Crow.")
 * 3) And Nat Gertler hit it right on the head: "There is an attempt through redirects to conflate "alternative comics" with "independent comics", and an attempt in the text to conflate "alternative comics" with "creator owned"." which is an unfortunate oversimplification and it could mislead someone who is reading this article/attempting to understand the genre, and its context. Can someone go in and rewrite those lead/opening paragraphs so that anything not published by Marvel or DC doesn't get ascribed to Alternative comics? I'm not writing this as a comic book fan, -but as a dedicated historian of the medium, and as a sober critic of the form and its practitioners. I think this is a good article and a necessary one. A lot of students and writers rely on Wikipedia for just the kinds of distinctions and factual specificity that is not currently written into that opener. I'd do it myself but don't want to ignite a fiery edit war, as I suspect there are a lot of strong feelings on this subject.(Sintauro (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC))
 * My suggestion is that you take a stab yourself. This is not a very active article, so I would not assume an edit war will erupt. I have an arguable conflict of interest myself, as a publisher of independent comics, some of which are alternative, some of which are not, some of which are creator owned, some of which are not, and the distinctions do not fall in easy patterns. Just make sure you provide sourced references for your distinctions. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Many thanks Nat. I had a couple of items that I originated get pounced on (frankly with the hindsight of a few years time, -justifiably so) by some editors and admins who eventually helped me and a couple of other editors out a lot (Emperor, Bert and others) so I guess I shouldn't be so shy at this point, I'm just remembering my first tinge of outrage when someone went over contributions I thought were complete/relevant/notable etc. I feel especially invested in this topic also, but want to make sure it serves to specify, and not necessarily just superficially include or exclude work in comics beyond any of my own biases and perspectives, a comment above noted how North American the focus was, and I had to absoluetly agree that it renders the piece very incomplete. So I'm going to hit up a couple of guys at The Comics Journal, specifically Rich Kreiner, and see about getting a second/third opinion before jumping in. Thanks again bro.(Sintauro (talk) 17:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC))

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title: Talk:Alternative comics