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Santa Maria Maggiore

The Basilica of Saint Mary Major (Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, ; Basilica Sanctae Mariae Maioris; Basilica Sanctae Mariae ad Nives), or church of Santa Maria Maggiore (also referred to as Santa Maria delle Nevi from its Latin origin Sancta Maria ad Nives), is a Major papal basilica as well as one of the Seven Pilgrim Churches of Rome and the largest Catholic Marian church in Rome, Italy.

The basilica enshrines the venerated image of Salus Populi Romani, depicting the Blessed Virgin Mary as the health and protectress of the Roman people, which was granted a Canonical coronation by Pope Gregory XVI on 15 August 1838 accompanied by his Papal bull Cælestis Regina.

Pursuant to the Lateran Treaty of 1929 between the Holy See and Italy, the Basilica is within Italian territory and not the territory of the Vatican City State. However, the Holy See fully owns the Basilica, and Italy is legally obligated to recognize its full ownership thereof and to concede to it "the immunity granted by International Law to the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States." In other words, the complex of buildings has a status somewhat similar to a foreign embassy.

Names
The Basilica is sometimes referred to as Our Lady of the Snows, a name given to it in the Roman Missal from 1568 to 1969 in connection with the liturgical feast of the anniversary of its dedication on 5 August, a feast that was then denominated Dedicatio Sanctae Mariae ad Nives (Dedication of Saint Mary of the Snows). This name for the basilica had become popular in the 14th century in connection with a legend that c. 352, during "the pontificate of Liberius, a Roman patrician John and his wife, who were without heirs, made a vow to donate their possessions to the Virgin Mary. They prayed that she might make known to them how they were to dispose of their property in her honor. On 5 August, at the height of the Roman summer, snow fell during the night on the summit of the Esquiline Hill. In obedience to a vision of the Virgin Mary which they had the same night, the couple built a basilica in honor of Mary on the very spot which was covered with snow.

The legend is first reported only after the year 1000. It may be implied in what the Liber Pontificalis of the early 13th century says of Pope Liberius: "He built the basilica of his own name near the Macellum of Livia". It is shown in the early 15th-century painting of the Miracle of the Snow by Masolino da Panicale.

The feast was originally called Dedicatio Sanctae Mariae (Dedication of Saint Mary's), and was celebrated only in Rome until it was inserted into the General Roman Calendar, with ad Nives added to its name, in 1568. A congregation appointed by Pope Benedict XIV in 1741 proposed that the reading of the legend be struck from the Office and that the feast be given its original name. No action was taken on the proposal until 1969, when the reading of the legend was removed and the feast was called In dedicatione Basilicae S. Mariae (Dedication of the Basilica of Saint Mary). The legend is still commemorated by dropping white rose petals from the dome during the celebration of the Mass and during the Second Vespers on the feast day.

The earliest building on the site was the Liberian Basilica or Santa Maria Liberiana, after Pope Liberius (352–366). This name may have originated from the same legend, which recounts that, like John and his wife, Pope Liberius was told in a dream of the forthcoming summer snowfall, went in procession to where it occurred and there marked out the area on which the church was to be built. Liberiana is still included in some versions of the basilica's name, and "Liberian Basilica" may be used as a contemporary as well as historical name.

On the other hand, the name "Liberian Basilica" may be independent of the legend, since, according to Pius Parsch, Pope Liberius transformed a palace of the Sicinini family into a church, which was for that reason called the "Sicinini Basilica". This building was then replaced under Pope Sixtus III (432–440) by the present structure dedicated to Mary. However, some sources say that the adaptation as a church of a pre-existing building on the site of the present basilica was done in the 420s under Pope Celestine I, the immediate predecessor of Sixtus III.

Long before the earliest traces of the story of the miraculous snow, the church now known as Saint Mary Major was called "Saint Mary of the Crib" ("Sancta Maria ad Praesepe"), a name it was given because of its relic of the crib or manger of the Nativity of Jesus Christ, four boards of sycamore wood believed to have been brought to the church, together with a fifth, in the time of Pope Theodore I (640–649). This name appears in the Tridentine editions of the Roman Missal as the place for the pope's Mass (the station Mass) on Christmas Night, while the name "Mary Major" appears for the church of the station Mass on Christmas Day.

Status as a papal major basilica
No Catholic church can be honored with the title of basilica unless by apostolic grant or from immemorial custom. St. Mary Major is one of the only four that hold the title of "major basilica". The other three are the basilicas of St. John in the Lateran, St. Peter, and St. Paul outside the Walls. The title of major basilica was once used more widely, being attached, for instance, to the Basilica of St. Mary of the Angels in Assisi). Along with the other major basilicas, St. Mary Major is also styled a "papal basilica". Before 2006, the four papal major basilicas, together with the Basilica of St. Lawrence outside the Walls were referred to as the "patriarchal basilicas" of Rome,{{efn|When Pope Benedict XVI abandoned the title "Patriarch of the West", the title of St. Mary Major changed from patriarchal to papal basilica, as found on its website, and each was associated with one of the five ancient patriarchates. St. Mary Major was associated with the Patriarchate of Antioch.

The five papal basilicas along with the Basilica of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem and San Sebastiano fuori le mura were the traditional Seven Pilgrim Churches of Rome, which were visited by pilgrims during their pilgrimage to Rome following a {{convert|20|km|adj=on|sp=us}} itinerary established by Philip Neri on 25 February 1552.

History
It is now agreed that the present church was built on the Cispian spur of Rome's Esquiline Hill under Pope Celestine I (422–432) not under Pope Sixtus III (432–440), who consecrated the basilica on 5 August 434 to the Virgin Mary.

The dedicatory inscription on the triumphal arch, Sixtus Episcopus plebi Dei (Sixtus the bishop to the people of God), is an indication of that Pope's role in the construction. As well as this church on the summit of the Esquiline Hill, Pope Sixtus III is said to have commissioned extensive building projects throughout the city, which were continued by his successor Pope Leo I, the Great.

The church retains the core of its original structure, despite several additional construction projects and damage by the earthquake of 1348.

Church building in Rome in this period, as exemplified in Santa Maria Maggiore, was inspired by the idea of Rome being not just the center of the world of the Roman Empire, as it was seen in the classical period, but the center of the Christian world.

Santa Maria Maggiore, one of the first churches built to celebrate the Virgin Mary, was erected in the immediately after the Council of Ephesus of 431, which proclaimed Mary Mother of God. Pope Sixtus III built it to commemorate this decision. Certainly, the atmosphere that generated the council gave rise also the mosaics that adorn the interior of the dedication: "whatever the precise connection was between council and church it is clear that the planners of the decoration belong to a period of concentrated debates on nature and status of the Virgin and incarnate Christ." The magnificent mosaics of the nave and triumphal arch, seen as "milestones in the depiction" of the Virgin, depict scenes of her life and that of Christ, but also scenes from the Old Testament: Moses striking the Red Sea, and Egyptians drowning in the Red Sea.

Richard Krautheimer attributes the magnificence of the work also to the abundant revenue accruing to the papacy at the time from land holdings acquired by the Catholic Church during the 4th and 5th centuries on the Italian peninsula: "Some of these holdings were locally controlled; the majority as early as the end of the 5th century were administered directly from Rome with great efficiency: a central accounting system was involved in the papal chancery; and a budget was apparently prepared, one part of the income going to the papal administration, another to the needs of the clergy, a third to the maintenance of church buildings, a fourth to charity. These fines enabled the papacy to carry out through the 5th century an ambitious building program, including Santa Maria Maggiore."

Miri Rubin believes that the building of the basilica was influenced also by seeing Mary as one who could represent the imperial ideals of classical Rome, bringing together the old Rome and the new Christian Rome: "In Rome, the city of martyrs, if no longer of emperors, Mary was a figure that could credibly carry imperial memories and representations."

Gregory the Great may have been inspired by Byzantine devotions to the Theotokos (Mother of God) when after becoming Pope during a plague in 590 that had taken the life of his predecessor, he ordered for seven processions to march through the city of Rome chanting Psalms and Kyrie Eleison, in order to appease the wrath of God. The processions began in different parts of the city, but rather than finally converging on St Peter's, who was always the traditional protector of Rome, he instead ordered the processions to converge on Mary Major instead.

When the popes returned to Rome after the period of the Avignon papacy, the buildings of the basilica became a temporary Palace of the Popes due to the deteriorated state of the Lateran Palace. The papal residence was later moved to the Palace of the Vatican in what is now Vatican City.

The basilica was restored, redecorated and extended by various popes, including Eugene III (1145–1153), Nicholas IV (1288–92), Clement X (1670–76), and Benedict XIV (1740–58), who in the 1740s commissioned Ferdinando Fuga to build the present façade and to modify the interior. The interior of the Santa Maria Maggiore underwent a broad renovation encompassing all of its altars between the years 1575 and 1630.

In 1966, archeologists excavating under the basilica found the remains of a Roman building including an imperial calendar with fasti and agricultural annotations and illustrations. On the basis of the calendar, the ruins have been dated to c. 200 by Salzman and to the 4th century by Magi.

On 15 December 2015, two homeless Arab men attempted to disarm soldiers outside the basilica while yelling the takbir "God is great". The 30 and 40 year old Palestinian and Tunisian called for others to help them as they threatened and assaulted the soldiers and police, but were arrested.

Architecture
The original architecture of Santa Maria Maggiore was classical and traditionally Roman, perhaps to convey the idea that Santa Maria Maggiore represented old imperial Rome as well as its Christian future. As one scholar puts it, "Santa Maria Maggiore so closely resembles a second-century imperial basilica that it has sometimes been thought to have been adapted from a basilica for use as a Christian church. Its plan was based on Hellenistic principles stated by Vitruvius at the time of Augustus."

Even though Santa Maria Maggiore is immense in its area, it was built to plan. The design of the basilica was a typical one during this time in Rome: "a tall and wide nave; an aisle on either side; and a semicircular apse at the end of the nave." The key aspect that made Santa Maria Maggiore such a significant cornerstone in church building during the early 5th century were the beautiful mosaics found on the triumphal arch and nave.

The Athenian marble columns supporting the nave are even older, and either come from the first basilica, or from another antique Roman building; thirty-six are marble and four granite, pared down, or shortened to make them identical by Ferdinando Fuga, who provided them with identical gilt-bronze capitals. The 14th-century campanile, or bell tower, is the highest in Rome, at 246 feet, (about 75 m.). The basilica's 16th-century coffered ceiling, to a design by Giuliano da Sangallo, is said to be gilded with gold, initially brought by Christopher Columbus, presented by Ferdinand and Isabella to the Spanish pope, Alexander VI. The apse mosaic, the Coronation of the Virgin, is from 1295, signed by the Franciscan friar, Jacopo Torriti. The Basilica also contains frescoes by Giovanni Baglione, in the Cappella Borghese.

The 12th-century façade has been masked by a reconstruction, with a screening loggia, that was added by Pope Benedict XIV in 1743, to designs by Ferdinando Fuga that did not damage the mosaics of the façade. The wing of the canonica (sacristy) to its left and a matching wing to the right (designed by Flaminio Ponzio) give the basilica's front the aspect of a palace facing the Piazza Santa Maria Maggiore. To the right of the Basilica's façade is a memorial constituting a column in the form of an up-ended cannon barrel topped with a cross: it was erected by Pope Clement VIII to celebrate the end of the French Wars of Religion.

In the piazza in front of the facade rises a column with a Corinthian capital, topped with a statue of the Virgin and the child Jesus. This Marian column was erected in 1614 to the designs of Carlo Maderno during the papacy of Paul V. Maderno's fountain at the base combines the armorial eagles and dragons of Paul V (Borghese). The column itself was the sole intact remainder from the Basilica of Maxentius and Constantine in the Roman Forum. The statue atop the column was made by Domenico Ferri. In a papal bull from the year of its installation, the pope decreed three years of indulgences to those who uttered a prayer to the Virgin while saluting the column.

Fifth-century mosaics

The mosaics found in Santa Maria Maggiore are one of the oldest representations of the Virgin Mary in Christian late antiquity. As one scholar puts it, "This is well demonstrated by the decoration of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome,... where the iconographic depiction of the Virgin Mary was chosen at least in part to celebrate the affirmation of Mary as Theotokos (bearer of God) by the third ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431 CE." The mosaics of the triumphal arch and the nave in Santa Maria Maggiore gave a model for the future representations of the Virgin Mary. The influences of these mosaics are rooted in late antique impressionism that could be seen in frescoes, manuscript paintings and many pavement mosaics across villas in Africa, Syria and Sicily during the 5th century. This being said, the crowning of Mary on the Apse was made much later by Torriti by commission of Pope Nicholas IV. (13th century).

These mosaics gave historians insight into artistic, religious, and social movements during this time. As Margaret Miles explains the mosaics in Santa Maria Maggiore have two goals: one to glorify the Virgin Mary as Theotokos (God-Bearer); and the other to present "a systematic and comprehensive articulation of the relationship of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian scriptures as one in which the Hebrew Bible foreshadows Christianity." This is explained by the dual images of Old Testament and New Testament events depicted in the mosaics of the triumphal arch and the nave. The mosaics also show the range of artistic expertise and refute the theory that mosaic technique during the time was based on copying from model books. The mosaics found in Santa Maria Maggiore are combinations of different styles of mosaic art during the time, according to art scholar Robin Cormack: "the range of artistic expertise and the actual complexities of production can hardly be reduced to a mentality of copying. A test case is given by the mosaics of S. Maria Maggiore in Rome".

Triumphal arch
The triumphal arch at the head of the nave was at first referred to as the apse arch, but later became known as the triumphal arch. The triumphal arch is illustrated with magnificent mosaics depicting different scenes of Christ and the Virgin Mary. There was a difference in the styles used in the triumphal arch mosaics compared to those of the nave; the style of the triumphal arch was much more linear and flat as one scholar describes it, not nearly as much action, emotion and movement in them as there were in the Old Testament mosaics of the nave. One of the first scenes that were visible on the triumphal arch was a panel of Christ's enthronement with a group of angels as his court. As one historian describes it: "On the apse arch Christ is enthroned, a young emperor attended by four chamberlains, angels of course", this is a perfect example of mosaic art in the 5th century. Another panel found on the triumphal arch is of the Virgin, she is crowned and dressed in a colorful veil, her wardrobe subtly brings to mind that of a Roman empress and in this panel she has her divine son walking with her and a suite of angels and Joseph ready to greet her; "The Virgin...shows to perfection the impressionistic character of mosaics." Another panel is known as the Adoration of the Magi and this mosaic depicts Infant Christ and The Virgin and the arrival of the three wise men, "mosaics illustrating Christ's first coming and his youth covered the triumphal arch." The other panel depicts the Virgin accompanied by five martyrs.

Nave
The nave of the basilica was covered in mosaics representing Old Testament events of Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt across the Red Sea. "The nave mosaics (which represents stories of Old Testament history and accordingly offered Christians in Rome a new 'past') are illusionistic in a colorful and impressionist manner" as this scholar puts it the scene was filled with movement, emotion, and it was to inspire thinking of Rome's "new" past; the past of the Old Testament. As one scholar describes it: "Moses strikes the waters of the Red Sea in a heroic gesture, his toga in light and dark grays and blues, but lined in black, the folds white lines, the tunic underneath light blue; the man next to him wears a deep blue toga over a gray and white tunic." Another panel shows the demise of the Egyptians in the Red Sea. An observer describes the mosaic: "The Egyptians, clad in blue armor with gold bands and scarlet cloaks wildly flying, drown in the greenish-blue waters; the horses, white or light brown shaded with darker browns, highlighted in white, the accoutrements a bright red."

Cappella Sistina and Crypt of the Nativity
Under the high altar of the basilica is the Crypt of the Nativity or Bethlehem Crypt, with a crystal reliquary designed by Giuseppe Valadier said to contain wood from the Holy Crib of the nativity of Jesus Christ. Here is the burial place of Jerome, the 4th-century Doctor of the Church who translated the Bible into the Latin language (the Vulgate).

Fragments of the sculpture of the Nativity believed to be by 13th-century Arnolfo di Cambio were transferred to beneath the altar of the large Sistine Chapel off the right transept of the church. This chapel of the Blessed Sacrament is named after Pope Sixtus V, and is not to be confused with the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, named after Pope Sixtus IV. The architect Domenico Fontana designed the chapel, which contains the tombs of Sixtus V himself and of his early patron Pope Pius V. The main altar in the chapel has four gilded bronze angels by Sebastiano Torregiani, holding up the ciborium, which is a model of the chapel itself.

Beneath this altar is the Oratory or Chapel of the Nativity, on whose altar, at that time situated in the Crypt of the Nativity below the main altar of the church itself, Ignatius of Loyola celebrated his first Mass as a priest on 25 December 1538.

Just outside the Sistine Chapel is the tomb of Gianlorenzo Bernini and his family.

The Mannerist interior decoration of the Sistine Chapel was completed (1587–1589) by a large team of artists, directed by Cesare Nebbia and Giovanni Guerra. While the art biographer, Giovanni Baglione allocates specific works to individual artists, recent scholarship finds that the hand of Nebbia drew preliminary sketches for many, if not all, of the frescoes. Baglione also concedes the roles of Nebbia and Guerra could be summarized as "Nebbia drew, and Guerra supervised the teams".

Others include Ferdinando Sermei, Giacomo Stella, Paul Bril, and Ferraù Fenzoni.

Cappella Paolina (or Borghese Chapel) and Salus Populi Romani
The column in the Piazza Santa Maria Maggiore celebrates the famous icon of the Virgin Mary now enshrined in the Borghese Chapel of the basilica. It is known as "Salus Populi Romani", or "Health of the Roman People" or "Salvation of the Roman People", due to a miracle in which the icon reportedly helped keep plague from the city. The icon is at least a thousand years old, and according to a tradition was painted from life by St Luke the Evangelist using the wooden table of the Holy Family in Nazareth.

The "Salus Populi Romani" has been praised by several popes and acted as a key Mariological symbol.

Prior to becoming the Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli celebrated his first Catholic Mass before the image inside the Borghese Chapel on Easter Sunday, 2 April 1899. In December 1953, the icon was carried through Rome to initiate the first Marian year. On 1 November 1954, the icon was translated and officially crowned by Pope Pius XII at Basilica of Saint Peter as he gave a personal speech and introduced a new Marian feast Queenship of Mary.

Future pontiffs Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis all visited the "Salus Populi Romani" and led liturgical celebrations.

Papal basilica
As a papal basilica, Santa Maria Maggiore is often used by the pope. He presides over the rites for the annual Feast of the Assumption of Mary on 15 August there. Except for a few priests and the basilica's archpriest, the canopied high altar is reserved for use by the pope alone. Pope Francis visited the basilica on the day after his election.

The pope gives charge of the basilica to an archpriest, usually a cardinal. Formerly, the archpriest was the titular Latin Patriarch of Antioch, a title abolished in 1964. Since 29 December 2016, the archpriest has been Stanisław Ryłko.

In addition to the archpriest and his assistant priests, a chapter of canons is resident. Redemptorist, Dominican and Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate priests serve the church.

The King of Spain, currently Felipe VI, is ex officio protocanon of the basilica's chapter.

Pope Francis visits the Basilica often, mainly to visit the Salus Populi Romani. He visits before and after trips outside the Vatican, calling the icon his "great devotion". He has also constructed a tomb next to the icon to be his final resting place upon his death. Francis plans to be the first pope to be interred outside the Vatican since Pope Leo XIII in 1903.

Archpriests of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore since 1127
List of archpriests since 1127.

 * Rainiero (attested 1127–1130)
 * Matteo (attested 1153)
 * Paolo Scolari (attested 1176–1187)
 * Rolando (attested 1189–1193)
 * Pietro Sasso (attested 1212)
 * Romano (attested 1222)
 * Astor (attested 1244)
 * Pietro Capocci (?) (named in 1245?)
 * Romano (attested 1258)
 * Ottobono Fieschi (1262–1276)
 * Giacomo Colonna (1288–1297)
 * Francesco Napoleone Orsini (administrator 1298–1306)
 * Giacomo Colonna (again) (1306–1318)
 * Pietro Colonna (1318–1326)
 * Luca Fieschi (1326?–1336)
 * Giovanni Colonna (1336–1348)
 * Nicola Capocci (after 1350–1368)
 * Pierre Roger de Beaufort (1368–1370)
 * Marino Giudice (?–1385)
 * Marino Bulcani (1385–1394)
 * Stefano Palosio (1394–1396)
 * Enrico Minutoli (1396–1412)
 * Rinaldo Brancaccio (1412–1427)
 * Francesco Lando (1427)
 * Jean de la Rochetaillée (1428–1437)
 * Antonio Casini (1437–1439)
 * Giovanni Vitelleschi (1439–1440)
 * Nicola Albergati (1440–1443)
 * Guillaume d'Estouteville (1443–1483)
 * Rodrigo Borgia (1483–1492)
 * Giovanni Battista Savelli (1492–1498)
 * Giovanni Battista Orsini (1498–1503)
 * Giuliano Cesarini iuniore (1503–1510)
 * Pedro Luis Borja Lanzol de Romani (1510–1511)
 * Robert Guibe (1511)
 * Francisco de Remolins (1511–1518)
 * Leonardo Grosso della Rovere (1518–1520)
 * Andrea della Valle (1520–1534)
 * Paolo Emilio Cesi (1534–1537)
 * Alessandro Farnese (1537–1543)
 * Guido Ascanio Sforza (1543–1564)
 * Carlo Borromeo (1564–1572)
 * Alessandro Sforza (1572–1581)
 * Filippo Boncompagni (1581–1586)
 * Decio Azzolini (seniore) (1586–1587)
 * Domenico Pinelli (1587–1611)
 * Michelangelo Tonti (1611–1612)
 * Giovanni Garzia Millini (1612–1629)
 * Francesco Barberini (1629–1633)
 * Antonio Barberini (1633–1671)
 * Giacomo Rospigliosi (1671–1684)
 * Felice Rospigliosi (1684–1688)
 * Philip Thomas Howard (1689–1694)
 * Benedetto Pamphili (1694–1699)
 * Giacomo Antonio Morigia (1699–1701)
 * Pietro Ottoboni (1702–1730)
 * Ludovico Pico della Mirandola (1730–1743)
 * Girolamo Colonna di Sciarra (1743–1763)
 * Marcantonio Colonna (iuniore) (1763–1793)
 * Andrea Corsini (1793–1795)
 * Gian Francesco Albani (1795–1803)
 * Antonio Despuig y Dameto (28 December 1803 – 2 May 1813)
 * Giovanni Gallarati Scotti (1814 – 6 October 1819)
 * Annibale Francesco Della Genga (10 February 18 – 28 September 1823)
 * Benedetto Naro (1 January 1824 – 6 October 1832)
 * Carlo Odescalchi (1832 – 21 November 1834)
 * Giuseppe Antonio Sala (11 December 1838 – 23 August 1839)
 * Luigi del Drago (29 August 1839 – 28 April 1845)
 * Costantino Patrizi Naro (24 April 1845 – 21 September 1867)
 * Gustav Adolf Hohenlohe (15 July 1878 – 30 October 1896)
 * Vincenzo Vannutelli (16 December 1896 – 9 July 1930)
 * Bonaventura Cerretti (16 July 1930 – 8 May 1933)
 * Angelo Dolci (22 May 1933 – 13 September 1939)
 * Alessandro Verde (11 October 1939 – 29 March 1958)
 * Carlo Confalonieri (16 November 1959 – 1 August 1986)
 * Luigi Dadaglio (15 December 1986 – 22 August 1990)
 * Ugo Poletti (17 January 1991 – 25 February 1997)
 * Carlo Furno (29 September 1997 – 27 May 2004)
 * Bernard Francis Law (27 May 2004 – 21 November 2011)
 * Santos Abril y Castelló (21 November 2011 – 28 December 2016)
 * Stanisław Ryłko (28 December 2016 – )
 * Rolandas Makrickas, coadjutor archpriest (20 March 2024)

List of major works of art in the basilica

 * Ancient Roman agricultural calendar
 * Early Christian mosaic cycle depicting Old Testament events, 5th century
 * The Salus Populi Romani, a much venerated early icon of the Virgin and Child.
 * Funerary monument of Clement IX (1671) by Carlo Rainaldi with the papal bust by Domenico Guidi.
 * Statue of King Philip IV of Spain by Gian Lorenzo Bernini, 1666.
 * Temporary catafalque for Philip IV of Spain designed in 1665 by Rainaldi, no longer exists.
 * Funerary monument of Pope Nicholas IV, designed by Domenico Fontana in 1574.
 * Bust of Costanzo Patrizi by Algardi.
 * Sacristy frescoes by Domenico Passignano and Giuseppe Puglia,
 * High altar sculpture by Pietro Bracci, (c. 1750).
 * Statue of Pius IX in prayer by Ignazio Jacometti, (c. 1880).
 * Pauline Chapel frescoes, by Guido Reni
 * Frescoes for the monument of Clement VIII, Lanfranco
 * Cesi Chapel tombs by Guglielmo della Porta
 * Altar, confessio and Presepio (crib) sculptures by Arnolfo di Cambio, about 1290

Burials in the church

 * Gian Lorenzo Bernini
 * Pauline Bonaparte
 * Junio Valerio Borghese
 * Archbishop Domenico Caloyera
 * Pope Clement VIII
 * Pope Honorius III (no longer extant)
 * Pope Clement IX
 * Pope Francis (future internment)
 * Jerome, relics
 * Girolamo Muziano
 * Pope Nicholas IV
 * Pope Pius V
 * Pope Paul V
 * Cardinal Ugo Poletti
 * Pope Sixtus V
 * Guido Ascanio Sforza di Santa Fiora

title: Santa Maria Maggiore


text:
Wikipedia talk:Suggestion box

Firstly, are you sure that you want to discuss the operation of the General_complaints page, rather than Wikipedia in general? If not, you should be using the General_complaints page proper.

Litefantastic Confesses
Okay, I really didn't know where else to go with this, but I just have all these complaints (nothing REALLY serious, but important enough) that I decided to make this page.

My complaints are:

 * 1) The search engine has worked properly for about ONE week since I joined in November of '03. What's wrong with it?
 * 2) The site moves like a turtle at times. I'm using broadband and yet it still takes an almost unrealistic amount of time to save changes I've made to pages. Why is this, and can it be fixed?
 * 3) The capital letters issue. If it isn't already a pain to try and correctly type out exact punctuation and spelling in the Search (O Brother, Where Art Thou? haunts me), we must also get the captialization exactly right. I'm in college and this gives me trouble, I feel real pity for grade-schoolers who have to try and find things.

This is a list of complaints. I'm not saying I'm mad at Wikipedia or anything, it's just that I think we might be able to improve some things and I think we ought to have an open forum (this page) for doing it. Don't hate me. -Litefantastic 00:39, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I added "This page is not for complaining about other users" to the intro. There are already many pages for user disputes, so it seemed a bad idea to allow this page to degenerate into yet another one of them. Angela. 19:44, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. This page hasn't really got a focus just yet (hence the name) but I think we need a GC page here on the Wikipedia. -Litefantastic 20:13, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Merger
This page seems to be a less-trafficked version of Village pump. I would seem advisable to reunify the two forums, so that more people get their questions answered. -- Beland 06:28, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Freedom
Dear Robchurch:

1. I would suggest that when in doubt, leave new edits in.

2. The most useful sites I have come across on the web are not very picky about their material. They present it all and let the user decide.

3. As the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste, and no matter what gets put on a page, some will like it and some will not.

Thank you!

William Wallace Apex, North Carolina — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.59.59 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Heritage
I would like to know if there is a Wiki policy on Heritage? I have noticed on many articles that there are edit wars about peoples heritage. How far back constitutes that someone is from that descent. If we go too far back then everyone is from the Nile River region, no? example: Scarlett Johansson keeps getting switched in and out of the category Polish-Americans because the article says her mother has Polish ancestors. --None-of-the-Above 10:10, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation
No complaint ... just a suggestion to improve Wikipedia ... please include an icon to hear the correct pronunciation of words used in Wikipedia to explain topics. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ageofmachines (talk • contribs) 01:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Plagiarism
HEY JUST WANTED TO ADD SOMETHING..... The majority of several of the articles in this "encyclopedia" are merely plagarized from other legitimate encyclopedias. Honestly--if you're going to steal it, at least change it a LITTLE bit....

disappointed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.255.218 (talk • contribs) 05:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Q&A
Another suggestion: What would be cool is if you had a Q&A tab.. which I guess is like the discussion page in a sense.. but, I think it would be pretty rad for someone to be able to pose a question about the topic of the page with the expectation of getting an answer from someone who maybe maintains the information or perhaps knows more about it. This would be helpful in the sense that obscure information could be located within Wikipedia but perhaps this would help to avoid filling up the main page with lots of little obscure details, which are annoying for those who just want the gist. On the other side of that, it would be useful to be able to have access *to* the more obscure facts.. (so I'm tired, sorry if this is not completely intelligible) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdu22 (talk • contribs) 02:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Which articles? Which encyclopedias?  Are you sure they're not mirrors of us? —Cryptic (talk) 09:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

New warning banner for this page
To me, "how to improve this Wikipedia" needs rewording. It seems that a new user may well consider that the removal of specific vandalism, errors, and, to them, politically incorrect content, was improving this Wikipedia, and would not read the small print underneath!

Also, the terminology in the banner is wrong. The first Wikipedia is I think really WIkimedia and the "this Wikipedia" is either "this use of Wikimedia", or simply Wikipedia. If you want to avoid confusing people who don't understand the distinction, simply drop the "this".

In the small print, errors might not be seen by people to include bias and vandalism.

I'll see if I can think of better wording, later.

--David Woolley 08:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

MFD
This page was nominated for deletion, but the result was to keep it. Radiant_ >|< 23:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

 * For the record, the history for Wikipedia:General complaints shows its first edit was the Revision as of 00:43, 7 May 2004. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancheta Wis (talk • contribs) 00:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Archiving
As the page had grown to over 300K and no-one was archiving it, I've created a new, simpler archive for all complaints, which avoids having to decide in each case whether it has been resolved or not. Warofdreams talk 16:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

ethnicity
I was trying to add a user box to my page about my ethnicity. i am a mexican and very proud. your site had ethnicities that i had never heard of. Can you please add mexican as ethnicity becauce you are leaving out a very large and proud group of people!

thank you xoxo SugaShake — Preceding unsigned comment added by SugaShake (talk • contribs) 02:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for alternate meaning of Wikipedia
Since Wiki is not a word that gives immediate meaning to most people, an alternate explanation for it might be: "What I know is"... K Levin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.252.173.11 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I assume that the idea is to allow any problem to take care of itself. A couple of years ago, nobody knew what 'podcasting' meant—Apple didn't create an acronym (or a backronym) to 'explain' the term.  Rather, they just let people learn for themselves.  Wikipedia is in the top twenty sites in the world for web traffic; I suspect that the meaning of 'Wikipedia' and the whole wiki concept is very rapidly diffusing without creating a novel acronym. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions
I hope this is the section that I need to get this across (I'm sorry if I had written anything in an article that is not supposed to go there) I am the person who thinks that generation y should be the MTV generation (in it's entirity, 1975-1978). Nonethe less, I have a suggestion. could you have a contact/comments tab at the bottom of the computer, so you can easily comment on things in the article. And, also, can you have a "help button" going on there too? I would greatly appreciate that. Could you also tell the sociologists, media people, ect that it would be nice if they could figure out a year for generation y to start before the generation zers graduate from high school. I think that the oldest members if 1991 (the beginning of the Gulf War) is thought of as generation z to graduate in 2009 and if you think that those born in 1996 are the members of generation y, then they would graduate in 2013. It is 2006 now, I would like for them to come up with something fesible. I would like to put in something now that is not a comment. I would like for those who are figuring out when generation z should start to consider the year 1991 as a start, as this is the beginning of the Gulf War and sets up the stage I think to the War in Iraq and looks like a good year to start generation z to me. Also, when figuring out what year to begin generation y, Let's look at some of the T.V.shows back in the late 1980's early 1990's. Full Houses D.J. Tanner was probably born in 1977 (or so) as she graduated from college the same year I did, 1995. D.J.'s sisters are also born in the 1980's. The show "Family Matters" had a daughter that was also from the same cohert as me (1976/1977). Her other sister is younger (probably born in 1982, 1983) or so. I just thought I might throw that in there too :-) :-) tlh102000@yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.227.123.253 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

User pages
OK, I'm sorry if this doesn't apply here, but should users be allowed to forge country flags and call recognized countries "so called"? I'm referring to -Inanna- who was banned repeatedly for 3RRs. But user pages are visible to virtually anyone who clicks on their nickname/username from the signature. I don't believe anyone would like his country being called "so called" since it's a globally recognized country, therefore it should be treated with some respect, even in user pages.--www.doc 02:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to rename this page
General Complaints seems like the wrong name for a page for "discussing problems you may have with the way Wikipedia is designed or suggestions on how to improve this Wikipedia." How about "Wikipedia:Suggestion Box"? -- Mwanner | Talk 22:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly agree - "complaints" is just way too negative for Wikipedia, which has always emphasized the positive with respect to participation in Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Suggestion box is much more upbeat.    Th e Tr ans hu man ist    09:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Emerging Bands
A new band, Nine Months Later, just made themselves an article. Wikipedia wants to delete it. I think Wikipedia should allow small bands to make articles and keep them for the publicity and so people can find out about them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abcxyz912912004 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * wikipedia does not exist to advertise things.Geni 01:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I don't see how this "Suggestion box" page differs much from the various subsections of the Village Pump, most of which also discuss "suggestions on how to improve Wikipedia, and problems you may have with the way Wikipedia is designed". Should the two be merged (in practice, I guess this would just mean redirecting this page to the Village Pump)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.111.77 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * It doesn't, never has, even when it was called "General complaints". People have been trying to get rid of or merge this page for a long time.  I'm all for the merge (Village Pump Proposals seems like the best match).      Th e Tr ans hu man ist    23:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since no-one has objected I have directed to Village Pump. There don't seem to be any discussions in progress here, so hopefully I'm not cutting anyone off in mid-flow. I couldn't get an auto-redirect to work for some reason, and then I also remembered we should keep links to the archives anyway, so some brief text remains on this page. Matt 20:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC).

Historical interest
Since this page is now tagged as being of purely historical interest, I feel it would be appropriate to move it back to General complaints - the location at which it gained most of its historical interest. Any thoughts? --Cherry blossom tree 22:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I think that people who type in "general complaints" should be redirected to a place where they can voice those complaints, not some historical document.  > R a d i a n t <  16:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I take your point, but it would only be one click away and couldn't you make the same argument for those who type in "suggestion box"? --Cherry blossom tree 23:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The editor size is more than needed?
I am not sure if I can suggest anything here, though I would like to put forth a suggestion. This is about editor that opens up when someone clicks 'Edit' button on top of the page or otherwise at sections on a page.(for signed users only)

I would like to suggest that the size of the editor should be reduced such that the text formatting, linking and other options above the editor & edit summary/save-preview-change-buttons below the editor are visible at all times, unless the need to have the edit space open for the whole page is needed for reasons. (In Mozilla Firefox, the editor can be re-sized too manually).

An editor would probably use the options available without having to scroll up/down is my suggestion in summary. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  08:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wikipedia talk:Suggestion box


text:
Talk:Adventure racing

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 January 2020 and 22 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Michellebrady.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2019 and 23 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hualo98.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion
I've added a section on AR race directing. It's from a document I started a while back and sent out to various folks for comment. Definitely a work in progress and may not jibe with every RDs MO; however, the point is to create a pseudo-standard for putting together a race instruction booklet or passport. I would love to see a checklist of sorts for putting on a race as well. Comments are appreciated.Jim Farmer 01:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this on VFD? I couldn't find it?Mark Richards 01:06, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm curious why it's up for deletion. There wasn't an entry for 'adventure racing', so I added one. No worries if it doesn't fit the criteria here, but I'd like to know why so I can avoid this later.

 * I couldn't find a mention of it on VFD - unless it is there, the notice should be removed. Mark Richards 01:06, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Who removes the notice?

Anyone can - why don't you? BTW, you can sign your edits using 4 ~ signs - Mark Richards 01:11, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Cool, I see the signature button, I'll give that a try. Thanks.--TrainDaBrain 01:26, 2004 May 7 (UTC)

 * Have fun, Mark Richards 15:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I do believe that discussion on the cause of Nigel's death does not belong in this article. (Safety section). Single mention is sufficient.

I believe the brief descriptions of the types of injuries and accidents helps provide an understanding of the type of risks involved in AR. It also highlights an important issue in AR -- the balancing of adventure/self-reliance vs. safety.

Hello, do you know why the references to the impacts that adventure racing has on the environment and the ARFE group were removed? Adventure racing gets very very close to the environment and I believe it's quite important that there is a discussion that gets started--or addressed--on its actual impacts, and what those of us who are in race management and racers ourselves can do about it...ARFE 14:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)ARFE

>Response. I agree with your point and reinserted a section on the environmental impact of AR. (btw, I didn't delete the initial paragraph). I suspect it was deleted as it read a bit like an ad for your group as opposed to an informative discussion. I would encourage you to expand the section with additional facual information re. the environmental impact of AR, as without it, I suspect the person who deleted you addition may again delete the section.

>Response. Hi John, Do you think you can contact me off-list? Our group would like to work with you on crafting some sort of data on racing and how it does affect the environment and what resources are available for people interested in that sort of thing--in the meantime, thanks very much for addressing the issue. Write to me at yishun (at) arfe (dot) org. Thanks--ARFE 22:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)ARFE

Removal of data
I made a couple changes to the page and I'll explain them here since there seems to be an effort to revert to original style. This isn't a magazine article so flashy quotes at the beginning of each section are very out of place. If you'd like to make a List of adventure racing quotes article, feel free, but they probably don't belong on this page, or at the very least, at the beginning of sections.

Also I remved the links to team pages. It's like putting on the Baseball article a selective of list of whatever teams editors choose to add. Not only will/would it become unbearably long, but it also doesn't belong on this page. Feel free to create individual articles for the teams or a List of adventure racing teams article, but an expansive article probably doesn't belong here. Jarfingle 20:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment re Removal of data/Bulk revert Discussion re removal of list of AR Teams
Instead of a "bulk revert", please make your case for re-inserting deleted text. Also, when deleting significant portions of an article, it is always helpful to state the case for doing so, as has been done here (apparently after the fact).

For my part, I agree with most of the removals. The new text regarding the environmental impact of AR did not add significant factual information. As suggested above, I agree it is an important topic (and one I had spent considerable time trying to craft without much success while writing the initial article that formed the roots of the current AR article). It should, however, include some type of significant factual information on the impact of races...such as the impact in past races, challenges in course design, etc.

The list of AR teams did risk a becoming a meaningless laundry list of teams, and is likely not fully consistent with the overall goals of Wikipedia. (I suspect a stand alone article of AR teams would soon draw fire as being meaningless and self-serving). I do recognize, however, that a list of team websites did contribute value, and for adventure racers was a resource to find other racers, as well as examples of how to design one's own site. To help fill this role, I will post a link to a list of adventure racing teams. I hope this will reduce any friction re the deletion.

Regarding deletion of various quotes, I personally enjoyed the quotes (I added the one from Dan Barger, so I freely confess my bias). I also believe "flashy quotes" are appropriate, and creating a page dedicated to adventure racing quotes, would not be a meaningful exercise without proper context. Nonetheless, I also think articles should evolve and when meaningful edits are made, I set a high standard prior to reverting.

John Turner 06:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi John,
 * Thanks, good point, I'll try to hit up the talk page beforehand in the future. Thanks for the thoughtful and effective resolution of listing adventure racing teams. Also, regarding the quotes, perhaps imbedding them in the article/sections might be a solution? I just took objection to them heading each section because it struck me as more promotional literature-esque (don't get me wrong, the quotes are great, but that's almost the problem!) or magaziney. Being someone who has just started to get the piles of college advertising junk in the mail, I simply may be oversensitive to this!
 * Jarfingle 07:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Over the past few years there was an extended debate about including various lists (list of racing teams, list of events, etc.) The approach for the last several years has to been to exclude any list of teams, but include a link to an external list of adventure racing teams. While I believe this is an appropriate approach, individual team names are often added (and then deleted by myself or others per the current editorial approach). I have deleted the category entirely to avoid the continuous edit and re-edit of the section. I speculate that the link I had added originally was of low value to a reader, supporting a deletion of the section in its entirety. As always, I invite other opinions to be voiced. John Turner (talk) 08:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Section for clubs?
Generally the addition of a list of links is inconsistent with Wikipedia guidelines. However, if you are contemplating writing a meaningful text section, I'd go ahead and do so. If people don't find it worthwhile a discussion will start —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.205.144 (talk) 07:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see a section here devoted to adventure racing clubs. A large part of keeping this sport alive is the work being done by groups (mostly volunteer and non-profit) to introduce newcomers, and as a newcomer a way to find them would be very valuable. I'd argue more valuable even than linking to teams. I have a vested interest in this because I started and help run GMARA, but as a true non-profit our only goal is helping the community. I know there are many such clubs just in the Northeast - how about we get a listing here?

Thoughts?

Tcurtin 21:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of link tag?
The link section has been simplified by various users. Absent objection (and pending additional edits) I would recommend removing the tag. Please note any objections. John Turner (talk) 17:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mark-burnett.jpg
Image:Mark-burnett.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Documentary
I have added a link to a short documentary about adventure racing done by the Philadelphia Inquirer. As there seem to be no other videos in this article, I think its inclusion is important as it gives readers a first-hand perspective into what the sport is like. -- 69.253.80.30 (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Orienteering
The article Orienteering is getting a makeover right now. Contributions are welcome. Also, I have tagged this article within the scope of WikiProject Orienteering. See the banner at the top of this page for links to the project and project talk pages. --Una Smith (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of Section Regarding Events
I have deleted the section of article that linked to a list of AR events. Originally the article included a self-contained list of events. The list became large, and several editors commented that the laundry list of links was not consistent with wikipedia style standards. The list was then deleted, and replaced with an outbound link to an AR wiki, on which race promoters (or anyone else) could add to the list. This wiki appears to no longer be functional. I have therefore deleted the entire section until an appropriate alternative can be identified.

John Turner (talk) 02:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

 * We could have it as a list. List of adventure races? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Excessive Links - DMOZ solution implemented
Due to the excessive number of external links, I implemented the normal DMOZ solution. --Trident13 (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Some of the links are not particularly relevant - I'd suggest the site I run, www.SleepMonsters.com which has the most complete history of Adventure racing, going back to around 2005 and is the go-to source for information on the sport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robthesleepmonster (talk • contribs) 10:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

 * SleepMonsters has some history back to 2005, but I have a comprehensive history of the sport going back to 1980, including images and television footage. The history on this page is inaccurate and heavily slanted toward Geocentric Pty Ltd's AR World Series and ignores many of the most important and influential races from 1980 to 2007. Ianadamson (talk) 04:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Adventure racing


text:
Talk:Altered scale

Jazz scale
I've always seen this referred to simply as "the jazz scale" (though, admittedly, it's not the only scale I've seen referred to as "the" jazz scale). -- Jim Regan 00:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

 * See jazz scale. Hyacinth 07:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Enharmonic
In the last example you need to start and finish with B# and not C...
 * Please sign your posts on talk pages per Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 07:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (This topic is about the illustration of raising the root of a B major scale.) Agreed. Can somebody with that software fix the illustration and accompanying text?199.189.86.27 (talk) 01:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Super Locrian? Entire article sounds like misinformation.
"Another way to look at the altered scale is that it is identical to the seventh musical mode of the ascending melodic minor scale, a mode which is sometimes referred to as Super Locrian."

What is described at the beginning of this article is a normal locrian mode. The first example is of a properly spelled C locrian scale (whose key signature would be that of Db major.) The second example is just plain incorrect. Assuming the scale is based on B, it has no tonic, but rather a "natural II". Assuming it were based on B#, it would be slightly closer to an altered dominant in the sense of a super locrian or diminished-whole-tone scale... but has another wrong raised tonic instead of a flat and sharp II as the second two notes.

While the quoted statement regarding the construction of a super-locrian scale is enharmonically correct, in its normal use in jazz as an altered dominant, the scale would actually contain the root of the dominant (scale degree ^5) followed by a flat and sharp 9 (Db, D#) -- an example of a super locrian functioning as an altered dominant in the key of F. A flat third would have a different function, making the outlined chord minor with a flat 9, and bizzare diminished 4th, and diminished 5th. It might sometimes be spelled this way to be easier to read... but is otherwise theoretically incorrect.

I have never actually come across someone using the term "altered scale" in this manner in either jazz or classical analysis. From what I gather from the Alternate_chord article, this scale is supposed to be the foundation of a tritone sub, or some other chromatically descending substitute for a dominant in a ii-V-I. I don't understand from this article how thats possible unless this has some use in classical western repertoire, which I've never seen, as such usage would normally be considered either linear harmony, or non-functional, rather than a dominant substitution. Otherwise I must assume that this really only happens in this function in jazz/pop styles, in which it most frequently functions to outline an alternate dominant.

Ormaaj (talk) 17:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I guess normal locrian wouldn't have a F flat but rather a F natural. The example is correct in that it shows the seventh mode of the melodic minor scale. Furthermore, the term is widely in use in jazz theory books, for instance the very popular duo "jazz piano book" and the "jazz theory book" from Mark Levine (#1 on amazon.com for jazz theory, I believe).--Dkcycovery (talk) 05:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree with Ormaaj. This article is largely misinformation, and the problem is related to enharmonic spellings. Just because Fb and E are enharmonically identical doesn't mean you can use Fb to notate E, especially in a theoretical context like this one. In the practice of notation of instrumental parts, it is common to use whatever accidentals make it easier for the players to be able to sight read, but this is not that scenario; E must be notated as E here. "Altered scale" is short for "Altered Dominant scale". It's called an Altered Dominant scale because it's a Dominant scale that includes the altered versions of all of the non-essential tones of a dominant chord. The essential tones for a dominant chord are the root, the major third, and the minor seventh. If you change any of those, it ceases to be a dominant chord. Those must be there! In a C dominant chord, the essential tones are C, E, and Bb, not C, Fb, and Bb. Likewise, when you alter the nine of a C dominant chord by raising it, you get D#, not Eb. The proper pitch names for a C altered dominant scale are C, Db, D#, E, F#, G#, and Bb. An acceptable alternate spelling that substitutes the flat five for the sharp eleven and the flat thirteen for the sharp five is C, Db, D#, E, Gb, Ab, and Bb. 108.185.42.185 (talk) 05:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The altered scale doesn't have a diminished fourth; it has a major third, because it is derived from an altered dominant seventh chord. The first graphic has to be called something else. I'm changing the sentence before the first graphic. -- Another Stickler (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The term "super-locrian" scale was introduced by Jamey Aebersold, creator of jazz play-along recordings. My main comment, however, is that I find these two statements in the article very unclear, possibly red-herrings. I think it would be best to delete it from the article: "In contrast to the term acoustic scale, the term "altered scale" almost always refers to this particular mode of the melodic minor, rather than the scale itself. In this sense, the term "acoustic mode" would be more accurate." Rmkeller (talk) 04:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree that mention of the "Super-Locrian scale" should be removed, but "red herring" implies that the misinformation is purposefully misleading. I think the misinformation is coming more from ignorance than maliciousness. By the way, the deriviation of the "Super" prefix is in taking one more step after the steps that got you through all the church modes from the Lydian to the Locrian scale (the steps of lowering the tones of a Lydian scale starting with the sharp eleventh and going up in fourths, so the seventh gets lowered next, then the third, etc.). "Super-Locrian" means one step more after Locrian. The true next step would lower the root, but that is skipped because that is an undefined operation in music theory, so the next step after that is called the "super-locrian" step and lowers the eleventh (which had already been lowered from the sharp eleven of Lydian to the natural eleven of the other church modes), this time to a diminished eleventh. The process can be continued. The next step after that gets the prefix, "Ultra" and lowers the minor seven to a diminished seventh, forming the "Ultra-Locrian" scale. Anyway, coming back to this article, the statement that an Altered Dominant scale is the same as a "Super-Locrian" scale ignores the distinction. The two scales are identical enharmonically, but they are not identical functionally, thus the need for separate names and separate spellings. A Super-Locrian scale goes with a minor seven, flat five chord (just like a Locrian scale does), not with a dominant chord. The functional identity of the pitches of a Super-Locrian scale as they map over a minor seven, flat five chord are therefore root, flat nine, minor third, diminished eleventh, flat five, flat thirteen, and flat seven. The chart of the C Super-Locrian scale in this article is correct when it spells it C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb. The problem is, it doesn't belong in this article! This article is about the Altered Dominant scale not the Super-Locrian scale! A C Altered Dominant scale cannot be derived from the same process as the church modes. It doesn't follow the typical convention of including one of each letter name. It also does not follow the convention of building a tertial chord by skipping every other member of the scale. You have to skip over two scale members in an Altered Dominant scale to get from the root to the third of the dominant chord because there are two ninths, which means a C Altered Dominant scale has two D's, spelled Db and D# (not Eb). A C Altered Dominant scale also has an E, not an Fb. 108.185.42.185 (talk) 05:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Notable jazz great and music teacher Gary Burton explains altered notes and the Altered scale starting at 8:15 in this video of a class on jazz improvisation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2txO_u2eNg He says, "so you make up a scale that uses all the possible altered notes and you get this: one, flat nine, sharp nine, three, sharp eleven, flat thirteen, and then the seven." Notice he doesn't say minor third and diminished eleven? An Altered scale is not a Super Locrian scale, even if they are enharmonically identical! 2606:6000:FFC0:7:584E:986E:8D16:FF7E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Another way to make an altered scale
There is another way to make an altered scale. All the notes except the tonic of the major scale are flattened. 47.20.0.160 (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

It's a mode of melodic minor!
Apparently it's the seventh mode of melodic minor. Melodic Minor on C is C D E-flat F G A B C, and altered on B is B C D E-Flat F G A B.

title: Talk:Altered scale


text:
Talk:Peremptory norm

Prelude to Editing
This page is without doubt outdated considering all of the recent developments. As of the moment, I am not in a position to edit, although I probably will be in around 6 months time where I will give this page a much needed face-lift. A good place to start would be the International Law Commission's Draft Conclusions on jus cogens. If I may suggest a structure to potential editors: 1- History of Jus Cogens - its roots in Roman Law, its relevance in classical international law, and then, 1966-today (contemporary international law). What is it, what is its function, what does it do, etc. very basic stuff. 2- jus cogens as a rule-making process - discuss Article 53 of the VCLT (1969) and Part Two of the ILC's Draft Conclusions on Jus Cogens, how do norms jus cogens come about in international law. 3- Legal consequences of jus cogens, Part Three of the ILC's Draft Conclusions on Jus Cogens, what are they towards treaty, custom, unilateral acts, and resolutions of international organisations. 4- List of norms jus cogens, the ILC's annex to the Draft Conclusions on jus cogens only lists 8, but there is a book by Linderfalk published by Elgar which has 48 if I remember correctly, there is without doubt uncertainty but the 8 listed by the ILC are without doubt jus cogens (see Dire Tladi's 4th report on jus cogens).

The above in my opinion (researcher in the field of jus cogens) is a good start which will, without doubt, need to be updated after the above recommendations are filled - the relationship of jus cogens and state immunity for example, or normative conflictcs, or etc. etc. there are way too many to talk about at this point but I reckon I will edit this page based on the above in a few months time if no one else does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.83.13.59 (talk) 10:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Untitled
I reverted the changes that 65.25.176.254 made to peremptory norm because they seemed to be based upon some extreme minority POV, and contradicted the history and practice of the concept and international law generally. To the extent that there is limited academic criticism of the concept, the article already reflects that. The additions grossly overstated it and made it seem as if the supporters of peremptory norm are instead in the minority, a bizarre faction of "globalists" trying to undermine state sovereignty for the rest of the world.

To the contrary, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties recognizes peremptory norms and invalidates any treaty provisions that are contrary to them, and just about every nation in the world is either a signatory or recognizes the Convention as customary international law. The United Nations Security Council has, very recently in history, with the establishment of the Int'l Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda, imposed responsibility on individuals for violations of these norms (crimes against humanity, war crimes, etc.). Piracy has been an impermissible exercise of state sovereignty for centuries under international law. So where is the criticism? Who is criticizing the idea that states have limits on how they can use their power? Who is criticizing the idea that international law prohibits states from initiating wars of aggression or committing acts of genocide or practicing slavery? Who is criticizing individual responsibility for these violations? Postdlf 00:43 07 May 2004 (UTC)

 * As far as I can tell, there isn't much of a challenge to the concept of peremptory norms/jus cogens, only to the way in which they can be established. The central issue is whether laws of one state can ever be subordinate to the laws of a community of states.  There's a growing sense that if one state passes laws that violate these norms, other states can simply gang up on that state without needing cover from international law.

 * As a general rule, I think we need to be careful about making it seem like a "majority" opinion is more right than a "minority" opinion. The truth is that states generally interpret international law in ways that benefit their political cause, and so-called experts voice their opinions that are greeted with cynical skepticism.  --Leifern 17:45, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)

A rationale for peremptory norms?
Concerning this paragraph from the article, especially the last sentence, "Some peremptory norms define criminal offences which are considered to be enforceable against not only states, but individuals as well. This has been increasingly accepted since the Nuremberg Trials (the first enforcement in world history of international norms upon individuals) and now might be considered uncontroversial. However, the language of peremptory norms was not used in connection with these trials - rather the basis of criminalisation and punishment of Nazi atrocities was that civilisation could not tolerate their being ignored, because it could not survive their being repeated. " The notion of that which civilization will not tolerate because it cannot survive its repetition, seems the very cogens of jus cogens: how can Nuremberg assert a criterion so relevant to jus cogens, and not be said to have used the language of peremptory norms?  This seems offered as an enduring standard, not a one-off. What evidence do we have of how the legal novelty suggested in the paragraph was perceived or discussed by either the participants or later analysts?

On a separate point, I don't have a date for the language quoted in the paragraph, wouldn't it be towards the end of Nuremberg's 1945-1949. I wonder whether it somehow echos in "The Constitution is not a suicide pact," which was from a (later?) 1949 dissent.

StrangerInParadise 04:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Is racial discrimination really considered a violation of jus cogens?
Forgive me, I am not a lawyer but is racial discrimination really considered to be a violation of jus cogens? Given that there cannot be recent tolerated state practice of other aspects of jus cogens such as genocide, as far as I am aware there are numerous incidents in which states are free to racially discriminate if they so please. Affirmative action is one area, states are under no obligation not to discriminate racially regarding immigration policy (e.g. Israel not admitting Muslims, Arab countries not admitting Israeli Jews, US Immigration not issuing study visas to male Muslims, the fact that it is usually much easier for a Japanese person to obtain a visa to visit a European country than an African etc). If someone can back up this assertion then so be it - I'm not convinced that racial discrimination is treated on the same level as genocide, piracy or aggression.

CallumJapan 01:14, 24 May 2004 (BST)
 * I agree; when I started this article, I didn't include it because my Int'l Law class and textbook never treated it as such. From the edit history, it was added by someone who claimed that the 1958 Barcelona Traction decision by the ICJ established it, but that case wasn't about race at all.  Postdlf 00:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Sources added

 * I have added several sources to the article and I am trying to find more to strenghten the article. I also added some case law (and working on more) and included sections to discuss each known jus cogens.Charleenmerced 14:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Question about Iran's nuclear program
Here's a question for international law experts. On the discussion page about Iran's nuclear program someone suggested that Iran may be justified in appealing to jus cogens to argue that the UN Security Council cannot demand that Iran suspend uranium enrichment. I'd be interested if anyone who frequents this page cares to comment on that point. I suspect that, like many legal questions, this depends on the details, both in terms of law and fact. I'd be happy to explore those details. NPguy 03:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

jus or ius
This article uses both "jus cogens" and "ius cogens." It's just a spelling convention, but it should stick to one or the other (though I prefer "jus"). NPguy (talk) 02:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Examples
Currently, there are only two listed. I think one should be removed as not clearly established as jus cogens, and the other should be expanded.

 * The Inter-American Commission of Human Rights' decision notwithstanding, I think a prohibition against the execution of crimes committed as a juvenile is not sufficiently established as a jus cogens norm. It is a debated issue, but jus cogens norms require a truly clear consensus.  Also keep in mind that with the exception of the USA and Canada, most of the (predominantly Catholic) members of the OAS consider abortion to violate the right to life.  While states that practice any form of death penalty are certainly in the minority, that particular view is quite regional.

 * The bit on torture should be expanded. Specifically it should go into the fact that the consensus is clear that torture is prohibited, but that what constitutes torture is where arguments start.  Long before 9/11, Isreal was the big nit picker on this point, or at least the most recognized.  This area, unlike slavery and piracy is a clear case where "the breach recognizes the norm."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by InMyHumbleOpinion (talk • contribs) 08:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Initial List
The initial list of generally accepted jus cogens norms in the second paragraph included the "prohibition on the use of force by states," but this is not a jus cogens norm. The UN Charter explicitly reserves the pre-existing right to the use of force in self-defence and explicitly permits the use of force under mandate from the Security Council. The prohibition on the use of force by states - or state actors - therefore, is not a non-dirigible obligation. It is, at most, a norm of customary international law subject to certain we recognized exceptions.

A number of points
My principal issue with this page is that it assumes that customary international norms are the only permissible source of peremptory norms (ius cogens). Any of the five sources recognised by Art 38 of the International Court of Justice Statute should be able to create ius cogens (see, for example, A.Orakhelashvili, Peremptory Norms in International Law) Akehurst's view that a treaty could not create such norms (see The Hierarchy of the Sources of International Law(1974-5) 47 BYIL 273) was based on the idea that prevailing Cold War politics made such treaties unlikely. Ius cogens are not separate sources of international law norms: they are simply norms (created by the usual means) which are so important they are accorded a higher status.

Jus/ ius is optional but I prefer ius as Classical Latin has no j.

JEAG06:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)06:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)JEAG (talk) 06:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that treaties can create jus cogens, but I doubt "any of the five sources" can do so. From the fourth edition of Shaw's International Law, pp. 97-98:
 * "It is also clear that only rules based on custom or treaties may form the foundation of jus cogens norms. This is particularly so in view of the hostile attitude of many states to general principles as an independent source of international law and the universality requirement of jus cogens formation."
 * In the absence of a custom or treaty, I don't see how "the teachings of the most highly qualified publicists of the various nations" could ever create "a norm accepted and recognized by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from which no derogation is permitted".
 * As for jus/ius, the former is more widely used in the English-language literature, so our article should reflect that. The Latin version of Wikipedia can use ius.  Regards, Polemarchus (talk) 16:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Peremptory norm


text:
Wikipedia:Suggestion box

For new Wikipedia suggestions, please use the appropriate section of the Village Pump.

Archived posts made through this page can be found at:

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title: Wikipedia:Suggestion box


text:
Green Apple Quick Step

Green Apple Quick Step, often abbreviated as GAQS, is an American rock band from Seattle. Their sound was described as hard-edged, post-grunge rock. The band began as Inspector Luv and the Ride Me Babys in Tacoma, Washington before becoming Green Apple Quick Step, in Seattle, by 1992. The initial lineup under the new name consisted of lead vocalist Tyler Willman, guitarists Daniel Kempthorne and Steve Ross, singer-bassist Mari Ann Braeden, and drummer Bob 'Mink' Martin.

The original lineup recorded and released two records: Wonderful Virus in 1993 and Reloaded in 1995. Their third album, New Disaster, was recorded in 1998, with new lineup including Dana Turner on guitar and Dain Hudson on drums was planned for release that year, but remains shelved. Their music has been featured on the soundtracks for three films, The Basketball Diaries, I Know What You Did Last Summer, and Homegrown.

They disbanded in 1998 and then re-emerged more than a decade later to perform more shows in 2010, with Willman hopeful of releasing their third album. As of May 2010, the band consisted of lead vocalist Ty Willman, guitarist Dana Turner, and drummer Geoff Reading, with guitarist Mike Squires and vocalist Christa Wells joining them for the reunion shows.

Early years as Inspector Luv and the Ride Me Babys (1989–1992)
Green Apple Quick Step started as the Tacoma-based band, Inspector Luv and the Ride Me Babys, consisting of vocalist Tyler Willman, guitarists Steve Ross and Dan Kempthorne, drummer Bob Martin and bassist Eric Munday. The band played a few shows locally and in 1989, Aroma Records released 700 copies of their numbered, limited edition purple vinyl EP, "Another World", which was recorded at Tombstone Records and contained 4 songs: "Soul Step", "Seamonkeys", "Another World", and "Eleventeen". Munday left the band in 1992. The band that would eventually become Pearl Jam played their first-ever show (when they were still called Mookie Blaylock) for Inspector Luv and the Ride Me Babys, on October 22, 1990 at the Off Ramp Cafe in Seattle.

Reformation and Wonderful Virus (1992–1994)
Later in 1992, the band reformed in Seattle, Washington as Green Apple Quick Step, with a new bassist, Mari Ann Braeden. They performed locally, sharing bills with Sweet Water, Meddaphysical and Best Kissers in the World before recording their debut album, Wonderful Virus, at Bad Animals Studio in Seattle The album was produced by Daniel Rey and released in 1993 through The Medicine Label, which was initially backed by Reprise Records before switching to Giant Records. They filmed a music video for the album track "Dirty Water Ocean" which depicted the band in a garbage sluice. The band toured in support of the album, performing with bands that included The Pleasure Elite, Gruntruck and Sister Psychic. In order to keep secret a Pearl Jam show at the Off Ramp in Seattle, it was billed as a Green Apple Quick Step show, though the band was touring Eastern Washington at the time. In the middle of their fourth US tour in support of Wonderful Virus, their van was stolen along with all of their equipment inside. The band later packed up their remaining belongings and returned to Seattle to begin recording their second album.

Reloaded (1994–1996)
With Nick DiDia and Pearl Jam guitarist Stone Gossard producing, Green Apple Quick Step began recording their second album in October 1994. The band had befriended Gossard previously and asked if he would be interested in working with the band. The album was primarily recorded at Gossard's home studio, though Gossard asked not to receive any royalties. Unlike Wonderful Virus, their second album featured Willman splitting vocal harmonies with Braeden. Green Apple Quick Step's second album entitled Reloaded was released on May 23, 1995, through The Medicine Label and was distributed by WEA.

The song "Dizzy", which was featured on the soundtrack to the film The Basketball Diaries, was chosen as the band's first single from the album, followed by "Los Vargos" as the second single, while a three-song sampler of "Los Vargos", “Underwater" and "Ed No.5" was sent to metal and hard rock radio stations. Although the songs failed to chart domestically, the single "Los Vargos" charted in Canada on RPM's Alternative 30 chart, peaking at #23 in June 1995.

In support of the album, they began a residency tour, during which the band played several shows each in the cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, and Phoenix before a starting a second residency tour of New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. They performed at the Bumbershoot arts and music festival at the Seattle Center Arena with The Presidents of the United States of America, Sky Cries Mary, Love Battery, Seaweed, The Spinanes and Supersuckers and they also supported Candlebox at their New Year's show.

Willman and Braeden contributed to the song "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'", by Mike McCready's side-project $10,000 Gold Chain, which was featured on the soundtrack to the 1996 film The Cable Guy. Willman also sang with Devilhead, led by Kevin Wood and former members of Hater; recording lead vocals for one song, Buying Milk, on their album Pest Control, released in 1996 on Loosegroove Records.

New Disaster and lineup changes (1996–1998)
Green Apple Quick Step then signed with Columbia Records and spent over a year writing songs for their new album, prior to which, guitarist Ross left the band to later, along with Kempthorne, form The Briefs, under the pseudonym Steve E. Nix and Daniel J. Travanti. Guitarist Dana Turner took Ross' place, and they recorded their third album in Los Angeles at Ocean Way Studios with producer Matt Wallace. GAQS' drummer Geoff Reading noted in a March 2010 issue of his regular column in the Weekly Volcano that after New Disaster was recorded, drummer Bob Martin was also replaced, by Dain Hudson who appeared on the recording and later Geoff Reading who played live shows. Reading joined the band in June 1997 following a successful tryout in May 1997 and they recorded a music video for the album song "Kid", which was later shown on MTV and featured on the soundtrack to the 1997 film I Know What You Did Last Summer. The band performed at the premier of the film, receiving some radio airplay, which was later re-serviced to Seattle radio stations KNDD, KISW, Cleveland station WENZ, and Boston station WBCN. Another song from the album, "Stars", was featured on the soundtrack for the 1998 comedy-thriller film Homegrown.

Willman formed a side project, Calm Down Juanita, with drummer Kevin Guess, that featured bassist Cole Peterson, engineer & project catalyst Steve Wilmans, and contributions from several other notable "players", including Braeden, who also plays bass on one song, Girlfriend, on the five-song EP that band recorded during the summer of 1997.

Green Apple Quick Step continued to play shows in Seattle, and they played a show with 10 Minute Warning in Portland. Though a March 3, 1998 release date was set for New Disaster, Green Apple Quick Step's management was not satisfied with the label's efforts to promote the album, and the label withdrew the record from release, never to see the light of day. Green Apple Quick Step disbanded soon after.

Post–breakup activities (1998–2009)
Calm Down Juanita released their self-titled debut EP in 1998, and then recorded a follow-up LP, Undertown, which they released in 2002. Braeden formed a band called Celebrity Damage. Willman also recorded lead and backing vocals for some tracks on Stone Gossard's debut solo album, Bayleaf, released in 2001. One of the tracks he sang, "Unhand Me", was chosen as the first single from the album.

Willman also performed with several other projects including Hula Bess in July 1999, with former Gigolo Aunts' Phil Hurley and Mass Sugar in 2007–2008.

Reading joined New American Shame, in 1999, before joining Loaded, with former Guns N' Roses bassist Duff McKagan, the following year. When Loaded went on hiatus in 2002, he formed The Disciples, that would later become The Chelsea Smiles, with Christian Martucci, Todd Youth, and Howie Pyro before Loaded reunited in 2008.

Tribute Shows (2009–2010)
A reconstituted Green Apple Quick Step performed at the Showbox at the Market in Seattle on December 20, 2009. After speaking with Ken Connell at the Hell's Kitchen in Tacoma about performing another Green Apple Quick Step show, they later performed there on March 26, 2010. with a stage lineup consisting of Willman, Turner, and Reading, with guitarist Mike Squires of Reading's previous band, Loaded, and singer Christa Wells. The following May 20, they played at the Crocodile Café in Seattle.

Reunion (2018)
Ty, MariAnn, Steve, Dan, and Geoff played two sold out shows with Candlebox at the Paramount Theatre in Seattle July 21, and 22, 2018. They also played the Crocodile on December 23, 2018.

Musical style
Green Apple Quick Step's music was described as post-grunge, alternative rock, pop rock and psychedelic rock. They have drawn some comparisons to the music of Jane's Addiction and Porno for Pyros. Reviewing Reloaded for Allmusic, Stephen Thomas Erlewine stated that the band "expands their sound by adding other styles to their basic grunge rock" and that "Experimenting with psychedelia and adding a better pop sensibility, the band sounds more confident and accomplished". Erlewine also reviewed the unreleased New Disaster album, stating that "the band concentrates on hard-edged post-grunge rock.", and said of their sound that it was "tighter than ever, but they still have trouble coming up with indelible hooks and melodies."

Band members

 * Tyler Willman – lead vocals (1991–1998, 2009–present)
 * Mari Ann Braeden – bass guitar, vocals (1991–1998, 2018-present)
 * Daniel Kempthorne – guitar, backing vocals (1991–1998, 2018-present)
 * Geoff Reading – drums (1997–1998, 2009–present)
 * Steve Ross – guitar (1991–1997, 2018-present)

 * Former members
 * Bob Martin – drums (1991–1997)
 * Dana Turner – guitar (1996–1998, 2009)
 * Dana Turner – guitar (1996–1998, 2009)

Discography

 * Wonderful Virus (1993)
 * Reloaded (1995)
 * New Disaster (1998)

title: Green Apple Quick Step


text:
Panel saw

A panel saw is any type of sawing machine that cuts sheets into sized parts.

Panel saws can be vertical or horizontal. Typically, vertical saws take up less floor space.

Horizontal machines are typically large table saws with a sliding feed table that pushes the material through the blade. Table saws without the sliding feed table can also cut sheet goods.

Vertical saws have two cost types, low cost and higher cost. Both types have the saw traveling through the short side of the sheet called cross cutting. For cutting lengthwise (rip) cut, the lower cost models, have the user slide the material through the saw while the higher cost models have the saw travel through the stationary material.

A sliding panel saw was invented by Wilhelm Altendorf in 1906 in Germany. Its invention set a new standard in woodworking, with dramatic differences from traditional machines. Up to that time, a conventional table saw had no mechanism for edging, meaning that for the first and second longitudinal cut on untreated massive wood, the lumber always had to be fed manually through the saw blade. The new system accomplished the task more elegantly by allowing the work piece to be fed through the saw blade while lying on a sliding table. Thus cutting becomes faster, accurate and effortless.

Panel saws are used by cabinet shops to easily cut panels, profiles, solid wood, plywood, MDF, laminates, plastic sheets and melamine sheets into sizes or cabinet components. They are also used by sign shops to cut sheets of aluminum, plastic and wood for their sign blanks. Some higher end panel saws feature computer controls that move the blade and fence systems to preset values. Other lower end machines offer simplicity and ease of use, including full scale hobbyist level panel saws at a mere fraction of the cost. While the entry level machines are designed for light duty usage, they offer home DIYers a cheap alternative for infrequent cutting when accuracy and clean cuts are not required.

Panel saws can have one main saw blade, or a scoring along with a main saw blade. Scoring is used to create a groove, especially in double side laminate before the main saw rips the piece in two, to avoid chipping. The scoring saw rotates in an opposite direction, as the main saw to avoid chipping.

title: Panel saw