text:
Wikipedia:Archived articles for deletion discussions/2004 May 31

This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of many pages.

This page is kept as an historic record.

The results of these debates were to delete the relevant articles.

Please do not edit this page.

Expression engine
Wikispam. The PMachines website looks impressive, there are 90000-odd Google hits on "ExpressionEngine," they look legitimate, I think it's a real product... but this article is still wikispam. Dpbsmith 01:33, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm on the fence about this one. Yeah, it's an advert, but the product very well may be encyclopædic.  Can't figure out how to vote on this one.  blankfaze | &#9835 02:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - advert - Tεx τ urε 03:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Article contains no reason to think this is encyclopedic, it's just a sales blurb. Andrewa 03:57, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep - Comment: it absolutely is not an advert.  I'm a user on said application, and upon finding very little information on it around the internet, I added it to the wikipedia.  please note that there is also a movable type entry, which is not considered spam.  is this simply because MT is a free product?  Juusan 08:57, 24 May 2004
 * Looks fairly notable, comparison to Movable Type seems reasonable. I think this article could be salvaged. No vote at this time. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:47, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Could need some work, but doesn't smell like a sales pitch to me (quite opposite actually). Abigail 11:28, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Lean towards delete. If you start excluding unrelated products, the 90K starts dropping rapidly; "Expression Engine" -regular -advantage -tales is down to 15K. Movable Type, on the otherhand, get4 MILLION hits. I am fairly anti-Borg, and in a forum where NPOV doesn't matter, would shamelesly plug alternatives. However, this is a self-admittedly new product, whose currency in the marketplace seems yet unproved. I guess I see the question as being, does WP want to be leading edge, or bleeding edge. Niteowlneils 20:54, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not clear why it is encyclopedic. Andris 05:17, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: advert for a nonnotable product. Wile E. Heresiarch 20:24, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * What makes this product notable? At the moment, delete. Average Earthman 11:23, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Something is needed. Just hold all application reviews to a minimum standard whether open source or fee based.  Specifically I turned to wikipedia for comparisons between MT, ExpressionEngine and Drupal.  I did not see the original EE entry.  My only question - is nothing better than something that is not perfect?

Kimberley Katherine Smith
Do we really need this G-Man 00:32, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, I think. Move to Kim Smith, I think, see rambling below. Article needs work, much too promotional. No, we don't really need it, but I don't think we need to delete it. My first reaction was that this was some rank amateur who couldn't afford the webspace for a resume, but I don't think that's true. Under the name "Kim Kay Smith" she does show up as a model of apparently some note. We need to figure out which is http://www.webwombat.com.au/lifestyle/fashion_beauty/smith.htm, an Australian site, has a non-sock-puppety article praising her as the next IT girl. She's been on the cover of Maxim, as documented on the not-its-own-domain fan site http://members.fortunecity.com/internet41/bio.html , several other magazines, assuming the magazine covers haven't been faked/Photoshopped and I don't think they are. Both sites say she (was) in the Victoria's Secret catalog, circa 2001. Whoa! "Kim Smith" Maxim yields a bunch of hits. 44,000 and most of them seem to be to her. The word "supermodel" seems to be being thrown around quite a bit. No, I'm not influenced at all by the fact that I find her pictures very attractive, no sir. Well, maybe just a little influenced. Oh, by the way, she's no relation. Dpbsmith 03:19, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Come ON! She wears a SIZE 9 SHOE. She was born in HOUSTON! She got plastered at a model search. How much more notable can you become? Well, she's not Becky Owen (nobody could ever ever ever be Becky (sob)) but she's OUR Kimmy. Delete. Denni 04:28, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
 * Dwindrim, you're starting to make me nervous. :)  RickK 04:32, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * You're safe, RickK. Wrong gender. And probably wrong shoe size too :p Denni 05:06, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
 * Never have I been so glad to be male and wear size 14s. -- Cyrius|&#9998 07:38, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I added the VfD header. RickK 04:31, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Easily notable enough, just by being on the cover of Maxim. Keep. Everyking 06:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree with Everyking. Keep. Rhymeless 07:20, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Guess what, her notability is irrelevant, because this is a copy/paste job from another site: . Listed on Copyright problems. -- Cyrius|&#9998 07:35, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, good (my spine was developing curvature from too much bending over backwards). Dpbsmith 17:53, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Circumfetishism
The word "circumfetishism" is not in the American Heritage dictionary, http://www.bartleby.com/61 and it only gets two Google hits (as of this writing... Google will probably pick up the Wikipedia article and its mirrors soon!). I don't believe there is such a paraphilia; if there is, the burden of proof should be on the article contributor to convince us that it exists. I believe the article is hopelessly POV, and cannot be rendered neutral. (I read it as implying a discreditable motive to advocacy of circumcision).

Note: full text of the page is:

 * Circumfetishism' is a paraphilia in which the circumfetishists receive sexual pleasure from sexual mutilation.

 * See also: Intactivism

Dpbsmith 02:15, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. It is true that very few people are interested in the philosophy of circumfetishism, but many discuss circumfetish and circumfetishists:
 * Circumfetish*
 * Circumfetish*
 * CircList.Com is a site devoted exclusively to circumfetishism, mostly against nonconsenting minors. If anyone does not believe that some people receive sexual pleasure from genital mutilation, just read the often pædophiliac circumfetishistic pornography at CircList.Com.  After reading the pornography  by circumfetishists for circumfetishists, you will agree that circumfetishism is real.
 * I believe that I have met the burden of proof about the existence of circumfetishism. CircList.Com is very compelling evidence that circumfetishism is a true paraphilia. Keep ?alabio 03:19, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Usage of a term on a couple of message boards does not a perversion make. Delete, it's not even an encyclopedic article. -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:36, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

 * ¿Would you consider the men at CircList.Com as having a a paraphilia? Occasionally, they hire intact male prostitutes for and watch while masturbating and engaging in sexual activity as they circumcise him.  ¿Would you consider this normal behavior?  Some of the stories on CircList.Com involve children.

 * Members of CircList.Com often go out of their way to observe religious and secular medically unnecessary circumcisions of unconsenting minors. I suspect that their motives are prurient.

 * You may not like the term circumfetishism, but it seems obvious that some paraphilia exists here. ¿Do you agree?  ¿If you agree, what would you call the paraphilia? ?alabio 04:29, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Irrespective of this debate, we don't make up terms on the Wikipedia (Wikipedia is not personal research), we use terms that already exist. Dysprosia 04:33, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. Google shows only 2 hits, a Yahoo discussion group and a topic in a circumcision discussion group in Father Magazine. The site mentioned above does not contain pornographic material except in the mind of the beholder. It does not have any paedophilic content except, again, in the mind of the beholder. While there may be some hint of paraphilia, it is no more notable than those who prefer shaved genitals or those who enjoy special-edition vibrating toys. I suggest ?alabio ought to be more concerned about his own mindset than those who share their thoughts and stories on this web page, which seems to be his real issue here. Denni 04:47, 2004 May 23 (UTC)

 * > The site mentioned above does not contain pornographic material except in the mind of the beholder
 * http://www.circlist.com/considering/expectations.html has headlines in it like "After a Lifetime of Desire, UK Man Gets Circumcision of His Dreams".  This seems pornographic to me.
 * And what might qualify that as pornography? That he's happy? That he dreams? That he maybe looks like his mates?
 * > It does not have any paedophilic content except, again, in the mind of the beholder
 * http://www.circlist.com/rites/maasai.html contains a a story with pictures of adults mutilating the genitals of children.
 * Methinks thou doth protest too much. The boy is getting the same circumcision every boy his age gets, and the procedure is done by one of his village versed in such things. Seriously, you are displaying an incredible lack of cultural sensitivity.
 * > While there may be some hint of paraphilia, it is no more notable than those who prefer shaved genitals or those who enjoy special-edition vibrating toys.
 * Psychosurgery although unethical is not much different than an haircut.
 * How, um, ah, whatever of you to decide that psychosurgery is unethical. Did you know that, to some, haircuts are unethical? Did you know that that comment was a complete non-sequiteur to the one which it followed?
 * > I suggest ?alabio ought to be more concerned about his own mindset than those who share their thoughts and stories on this web page, which seems to be his real issue here.
 * Ad Hominem attacks are not nice. ?alabio 05:33, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Neither is linking exactly the same word five times in the space of a few sentences. It's a little tin-foil hattish, and anywhere else, I'd expect to see THE CAPITALS OF DOOM. Quite frankly, ?alabio (may I call you??), your style and presentation are very, very unusual, and I always find that suspicious. Maybe you're just here to jive us a little. Okay, good clean fun, I can handle that. Or maybe it's that your user history shows you to be a very, very naughty boy on other pages, and one who seems to take an, um special interest in pages to do with sexuality. Nowwhymightthatbe---hmmmm... Denni

 * Delete. No evidence it is encyclopedic. Looking at the edit summary for the first version of this article, which reads Circumfetshists hurt babies, I suspect it's a subtle contribution to the debate over male circumcision. As such it makes sense, but however much I might agree with this POV, this is not the place for such propaganda. Andrewa 23:50, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. Maximus Rex 02:21, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Whether it stays in Wikipedia or not, circumfetishism is real. One has only to open one's eyes to see all the people around the world; male, female and intersexed whose genitals and sexual response are truncated for life by senseless genital reduction surgery performed against their will and when no consent is possible.  The people who commit these crimes are circumfetishists. Keep. - 63.228.217.250 03:17, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Anon who's only edit is this comment. Sockpuppet. -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:22, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah, but an untruncated sockpuppet! Denni 08:09, 2004 May 24 (UTC)
 * Delete ASAP. Unencyclopedic and disingenuous. -- The Anome 08:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. The glossary in my Intactivism pages, www.circumstitions.com gives this definition (and has done for several years):
 * circumfetishism: Deriving sexual pleasure from the act of circumcision (hence also "circumfetishist"). Circumfetishism involves fantasies of power and control, which may be ritualistically acted out (so it should be distinguished from just eroticising the circumcised penis, as many women and gay men may do just for want of knowing any other). They may be active (sadistic) fantasies of circumcising, or passive (machochistic) fantasies of being circumcised, and the rituals, when they occur, of course involve both. Circumfetishists have at least one website and three clubs.

 * There are certainly a significant number of people of both persuasions. For example, letters to Forum magazine talk of using fantasies of the wife circumcising the husband (not carried out) for arousal, even going so far as to lay out a knife on the bedside table. A writer on alt.circumcision challenged all comers to wrestling matches, the winner to circumcise the loser - in front of the audience. Such people need a name.

 * Whether Circlist is pornographic is neither here nor there; it is certainly run by and for people with such a fetish/paraphilia.

 * The definition might be improved without the controversial word "mutilation" though in any other context, that would be the most appropriate word. Hugh7 10:34, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Where did the word and its definition originate? Did they originate on your website? If not, can you cite a dictionary or other respected reference source that contains it? Dpbsmith 12:43, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

 * User Hugh7 has made exactly one edit at the time I write this, the previous comment. Sockpuppet. -- Cyrius|&#9998 17:46, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * Unless someone cites something a good bit more credible than what's shown up so far, delete. Rossami 22:00, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't think this entry should be deleted just because it's a relatively new coinage. It describes a paraphilia which, IMO, has been shown to exist to a reasonable standard. I think it can and should be improved from it's present state as a stub and deleting it isn't the way to do that.

Keep

Ixbalam 00:06, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * With the number of sock puppets taking part here, someone must be getting really cold toes. Denni 01:12, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
 * Cold somethings, anyway. -- Cyrius|&#9998 01:27, May 25, 2004 (UTC)

First things firstly, I have no sockpuppets. I despair, I commented about circumfetishists trying to censor reality on WikiPedia.Org. Three of my friends decided to help. the American Jerry Wayne Norton is the IP-address, Ixbalamis I believe a Newyorker, while Hugh Young is a Newzealander. If anything else, intactivists want to keep the article.

I wanted to avoid graphic images, but if any doubts that circumfetishists is a paraphilia, one should see Sexually Mutilated Child. Sexually Mutilated Child documents what circumfetishists do to boys girls and intersexuals. As an example, this is a picture about a circumfetishist fellating an infant whom the circumfetishist just mutilated. ¿Is mutilating and fellating infants normal? ¿Is this a paraphilia? ¿Do you wish to allow people with this paraphilia to move around our society invisibly, choosing their victims at will, or do you believe that we should expose them for what they are?

Circumfetishists like to reshade society in their own image:

Up until about three thousand years ago, Jews did not sexually mutilate. Then circumfetishists rewrote the story about Abraham. Sexual mutilation violates six Jewish laws:

 * 1) It causes unnecessary pain.
 * 2) It is against Jewish law to attack others unprovoked.
 * 3) It marks, mutilates, the body.
 * 4) Theft is against Jewish law.
 * 5) It is a homosexual act.
 * 6) It violates the Sabbath.

Mohammed never mentioned circumcision, yet circumfetishist have most moslems believing that the Qoran requires sexual mutilation.

In the United States of America, circumfetishists made Americans believe that masturbation causes blindness and insanity, and the best way for preventing masturbation is genital mutilation.

Notice that in the Mideast, sexually mutilated Americans, Jews, and Moslems have nothing better to do than kill each other.

Circumfetishist have also convinced some Australian Aboriginies, Filipinos, Oceanians, and Africans that sexual mutilation is good.

Circumfetishism is an insidious threat to the children of the world.

?alabio 05:29, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow, "Circumfetishism is an insidious threat to the children of the world"... that convinces me... Delete - (What? No one thinks smoking is the "insidious threat" anymore?  How about "Rock and roll"?) - Tεx τ urε 05:32, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

I believe that we have seen plenty of evidence that circumfetishism exists.

Some of you do not like the way I write, I am an intactivist and an Esperantist. When I first tried to log into the WikiPedia.Org, the system changed my handle to ?alabio. It should be Ŭalabio. Ŭalabio is Esperantic version of wallaby. If I knew that WikiPedia.Org could not handle UTF-8, I would have set up an account as Walabio, which is a transliteration of Ŭalabio.

?alabio 03:41, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

"Circumfetishism" is a new word to describe something that has been noted since Biblical times, namely, that some people have a sexual involvement in circumcision.

Examples from the Bible

1  King Saul accused his son Jonathan of having a shameful relationship with David (1 Samuel 20:30). He tried to get David killed (1 Sam. 18:25). His method was to set him the task of collecting 100 Philistine foreskins as a dowry for his daughter(1 Sam. 18: 25). The fact that King Saul chose such a macabre task and his accusation that David and Jonathan had a shameful relationship is strong evidence that the dowry was sexual bait that Saul chose because he thought it would appeal to David's sexual tastes.

2  In the New Testament, the apostle Paul accused circumcision enthusiasts in the early church of a carnal involvement in circumcision (Galatians 5:13).

Perhaps you should consider editing circumcision, then, rather than creating new articles with made-up names? -- The Anome 08:35, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. Made-up words do not make for good Wikipedia articles. -- ElBenevolente 15:50, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. The personal agenda here is so thick that the burden lies overwhelmingly on the retentionists to prove significant use elsewhere. --Jerzy(t) 04:08, 2004 May 28 (UTC)

Dumbarton Harp F.C.
Vanity. Satori 18:52, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. All of 14 hits on google, and those I visited weren't relevant. Thue 19:09, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Quite vanity. -- Cyrius|&#9998 20:05, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity... -- jaredwf 20:31, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Why not delete the personal stuff and leave the club stuff as a stub? RickK 22:15, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Because it's the first step down the slippery slope leading to articles about Little League teams. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:29, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. Not sure it's vanity: may just be a question. But turning it into an article means turning it into a vanity article. --Jerzy(t) 04:58, 2004 May 28 (UTC)

The Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike
Orphan. Sourcetext (possible copyvio). 4 hits for "There once was this Black and White Space Marine on a Black and White bike". Niteowlneils 19:58, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. With only 4 google hits it is not notable enough. Thue 22:01, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete, not even worthy of Bad Jokes. RickK 22:10, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. Not reviled enuf to redir to Shaggy dog story (which needs rename to Shaggy-dog story). --Jerzy(t)

...The Press!
Article about an as-yet unreleased musical show. No notables involved. Advert ?

 * Delete - TB 10:19, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. If it ever gets released it might be included, but it isn't appropriate now. Thue 12:19, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Guff
Dictionary definition. And wrong at that, because "guff" actually means "nonsense" and not "fart" as the article states. Thue 12:34, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Bad Jokes. Delete. - David Gerard 18:37, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * It can mean fart. delete, and anyone to rewrite for Wiktionary? Duncharris 19:13, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * It can mean fart where, exactly? Delete. Niteowlneils 20:00, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, provisionally. Googling on "guff fart" yields 954 hits, mostly looking relevant and suggesting that the word really does have that meaning. As to where, the article says it's Scottish, and the Google hits seem to have reference to usage in the UK and Australia. Someone needs to check a reliable slang dictionary. I removed the unnecessary reference to the danger of ignition, since this is covered adequately in fart and lighting farts. We're left with a slang dicdef but, if verifiable, it's an interesting one which I hadn't known and am therefore reluctant to delete. Is this, in fact, the taboo origin of the legitimate word "guff, n, 1. Nonsense; baloney. 2. Insolent talk; back talk?" (AHD4) If so, defining "guff" as "baloney" has a certain appropriateness... Dpbsmith 20:41, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm a Londoner (i.e. not Scottish) and I'm familiar with the word 'guff' meaning 'fart'. Im not sure it needs a Wikipedia entry, though, as it's always basically going to be a definition.Harry R 20:56, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've never heard 'guff' used to mean anything but 'fart', but the article has no value. Chameleon 12:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Yayhooray
Bad uninformative orphaned stub about a rather unimportant webpage (Alexa rank around 80.000 ). More wikispam than a noteworthy article. andy 19:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. spam. Duncharris 20:09, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - David Gerard 23:10, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

CCITT X.409 '84
Gibberish. RickK 01:35, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Mind if I stick my nose back in to say that I agree with you? - Lucky 6.9 01:58, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. Orig res, if not tin-foil-hattery. --Jerzy(t) 01:59, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
 * I keep reading it, and it keeps almost but not quite making sense. Delete -- Cyrius|✎ 07:27, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - looks like the output of a Markov chain. Abigail 14:29, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * [Visualizing Markov-chain chain-edit.] --Jerzy(t) 20:12, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
 * Delete. Incomprehensible, no links or references or background or context to make it possible to verify whether there's anything meaningful at all behind the bush where a gull calls, coming far, ending here. Finn again? Take, but softly memory till thousands are given the keys to a way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, by a commodius vicus of recirculation. Dpbsmith 16:20, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I knew a guy who thought he had a commodius vicus of recirculation, but it turned out to be a tapeworm... - Lucky 6.9 17:58, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Patent nonense. Ellsworth 23:44, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Like Cyrius said, it seems on the verge of making sense, but it doesn't. Johnleemk 15:50, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Jason Richey
a guy that works for Bomis, Jimbo's internet company. Not otherwise notable. Maximus Rex 00:49, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Well I know some other Wikipedia guys have articles about them, but unless this guy's specifically notable, I'll have to say delete. blankfaze | &#9835 00:54, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does not meet the Criteria for inclusion of biographies. Angela. 01:17, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, he does: "Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is recognized as exceptional and likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field" and "Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events". If you delete this page, what about Carl J. Meade, Bram Moolenaar, Clifford Adams, Donald Becker, or any of the hundreds of other pages which don't meet a narrow interpretation of those criteria?  Do you think we should delete all of them too? anthony (see warning) 21:05, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * He's already got almost as much of a bio under User:Jasonr. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:35, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Haha... bizarre. blankfaze | ♫ 03:26, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I think it's worth noting where this debate has been already. The article was created by an anon. Two different sysops have attempted to make it a redirect, only to have it on both occasions reverted by the same user, a noted inclusionist and nonconformist. Jason is one of the pillars of Wikipedia, but even he shouldn't have an article in the main namespace, and the compromise of making it a redirect (which I would oppose anyway) isn't working. Andrewa 03:19, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. As you admit yourself, he is notable. anthony (see warning) 20:41, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article makes no claim for notability separate from Wikipedia itself, so not currently warranting a separate article. Average Earthman 11:29, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * What is wrong with notability not separate from Wikipedia itself. Should we delete the Wikipedia article? anthony (see warning) 21:05, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Reluctantly, delete. Reluctant because it does not appear that he did this himself. That makes it a little harder than the obvious vanity pages.  Regardless, this is what the user pages are for. We should not be writing about ourselves in the main article space. Rossami 21:44, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * As much as I like the Wikipedia, delete. --Wyllium 22:45, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Bandwagon Oklahoma Music and BandwagonOK

 * Advertising. RickK 02:32, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Gets about 50 hits on google, half of which appear to be attempts at selfpromotion on forums and guestbooks. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 07:25, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * This group has no historical or cultural significance and the information given is simply aimed at potential clientele/associates. Delete. HamYoyo|message me 00:20, 31 May, 2004 (BST)
 * Keep. Nonprofit site aimed at helping the music industry in Oklahoma. User:ZaKK

Robert Kyle Wilson

 * Delete - world renowned vanity page and advert for his website - Tεx τ urε 05:24, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * That was painful to read. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 07:22, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * I thought we had LiveJournal for this sort of thing. Delete. - David Gerard 07:25, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * He makes Shawn Mikula look like a good poet. Delete. Dunc Harris | Talk 13:06, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, how nice! He gave himself permission to post this.  Delete swiftly on silent wings of extreme prejudice. - Lucky 6.9 16:53, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Haha, yeah, I really cracked up when I saw "Released with permission from Robert K. Wilson." Oh, and "Justification came next in the selfishness of yesteryear" ... haha, does that even MEAN anything?  Move to Bad Jokes, or not, I could care less, but DELETE.  blankfaze | ♫ 18:13, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Wow. Did anyone have the opportunity to read his "blog" ?  This Robert K. Wilson fellow is one twisted person.  blankfaze | &#9835 18:17, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * You delete what you do not understand. 69.165.14.27 (signed on his behalf by Cyrius|✎ 06:44, May 26, 2004 (UTC))
 * Delete. Large scale egos do not warrant inclusion. Genuine world renown is required. Three google hits for the name, one of which is for someone dead for a century, four Teoma hits, including two dead and a local newspaper list of graduates. This indicates no renown whatsoever. Average Earthman 11:37, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * You realize, of course, that most Wikipedia articles cover subjects that would be known only to relatively small numbers of people in particular parts of the world.. Everyking 16:00, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
 * The poetry is pathetic. The blog is even more pathetic. I wonder what the life is like? Delete yesterday. Denni 22:11, 2004 May 26 (UTC)
 * Delete, but I don't think it's necessary for people to include criticism of the poem or the poet when this is the place to discuss the worthiness of the article. MK 03:42, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Sorry, MK, but the poem is the article. He has also linked his blog to the "article", and Blankfaze does not exaggerate. If you open your living room door to people, you should not get upset if they comment on the mess. Denni 05:28, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Haha, dunno if anyone else got this but someone left a message on my User talk page about this Robert Kyle Wilson case. I figured I'd share it with you all: blankfaze | &#9835 18:36, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I am offended at your lack of taste. Mr. Wilson is a talented poet, as evidenced by his numerous speaking engagements across the midwest.

 * He is a poet and you can quote it.

 * E. Buell
 * Denison University

I got a personal note from the Bobber himself on my user page. It took me to task for the quality of my life, spending "all my time" as I do, working on a "virtual encyclopedia". There was more, but DELETE is such a darn handy key...Denni 22:27, 2004 May 27 (UTC)
 * I got one as well, claiming that I am "unable to recognize greatness when it smacks [me] in the mouth." -- Cyrius|✎ 22:37, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * It gets better. I went back on Our Bobby's blog page  and it seems he's boycotting us and accusing us of "having too much time on our hands."  That's the nice thing about working with a computer all day.  I can work and have some fun here as well! - Lucky 6.9 23:36, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The lot of you does need to lighten up. What you are doing here is ultimately of little substantive importance, so don't take it, or yourselves, too seriously. However, I have found this "debate" to be quite entertaining. But enough is enough. You have my permission to delete the submission and move on to more important issues, such as debating the worthiness of grind  punk bands from the early nineties. Go you!

Knowledge, in of itself, is meaningless, if not tempered by wisdom.

Attributed to Robert Kyle Wilson

 * I'm sorry that you feel that building a free multilingual encyclopedia for the world is unimportant. We'll let you get back to writing angsty poetry in the Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings style and publicly telling the world to go to hell twice a week. Sorry to have wasted your precious time. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:24, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

 * " I turn twenty-four in little over a month. Odds are I will buy myself a whore. But, instead of engaging in sexual intercourse, I will spend an hour berating here because she is ,in fact, a dirty, dirty whore. I can't wait till June 28th. " (from Robert Kyle Wilson's "self-effacing" ...uh-huh...blog). So, Robert, tempered by the wisdom of what? A wart? A chancre? A particularly obnoxious social disease? Hey, man, I'll miss you - this is one of the ways I lighten up - by taking the opportunity to slag obnoxious worms like you, with no feelings of guilt whatsoever! But alas! It's back to articles on Lincoln's shoes and chewing gum through the ages. At least it's "too much time" we have on our hands, and not something else, ifyaknowwhatI mean... Denni 04:27, 2004 May 28 (UTC)

 * Once again, we of little "substantive importance" are granted permission, this time to delete his oh-so-unappreciated "article." And, he's now quoting himself in the third person.  Bobby, go buy your hooker.  Have a ball.  And consider applying your quote to yourself.  Oh, and don't forget the penicillin. You're too much fun to lose at such a tender age. - Lucky 6.9 17:01, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Hahahaha. blankfaze | &#9835 17:29, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Bob, I tried to speak up in your defense. But your subsequent behavior isn't helping you any. By the way, you misspelled "pseudo-intellectuals" in your recent revision. MK 05:04, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

True Magic
Article not written in encyclopedic style, looks like a copyvio, content is source text at best and even the name is POV. Please kill it. -- Graham :) | Talk 09:26, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * This completely POV insanity must be deleted immediately. Any half-sensible  content in it should be merged into Magic (paranormal). Chameleon 12:10, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Not sure that there's anything of worth here that isn't already covered at Magic (paranormal), and I see little point in sifting through its malarkey about nadion particle mass. Delete.  Smerdis of Tlön 13:45, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unencyclopedic title, contents at least 90% fantasy, possibly more. Only other contribution by this anon is a link from magic, since removed. Andrewa 14:36, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete before someone finds this horrible article -Ivan 17:22, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * "Nadion particles," eh? Either someone's been watching too much Star Trek or has been drinking bong water against all advise.  Oh, and delete. - Lucky 6.9 17:39, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * This, I believe, comes from some sort of fantasy novel, RPG, or the like. Note that some low-level magic users are "nobles who dabble in the arcane, or minor hedge wizards".  Delete, but potential keep, depending on whether or not there's context. Meelar 17:51, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, and clean up the drool left by the writer. DJ Clayworth 18:22, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 18:24, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Copyvio from . Follow the homepage link at the bottom to get the rest of the details on the game. DJ Clayworth 18:28, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. --Newdawnfades 15:54, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Stepping-stone democrat

 * Delete - made-up term as propaganda against George Bush. I have removed his name in case it is a real term since a real term would be generic and not specific to one sitting president.  I can find no use of this term on the internet.  - Tεx τ urε 15:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - no Google hits, no use in any Kerry-supporter circles, no background in article. - jredmond 15:57, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete since it doesn't have any google hits. Thue 16:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Cyrius|✎ 18:23, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vote Republican. ;) - Fennec (さばくのきつね) 03:33, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Cap N1ne
Looks like vanity. Messy, unwikified deadend. Unworthy! blankfaze | &#9835 18:48, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this guy isn't too fond of himself, is he? No Google hits whatsoever.  Delete as vanity. - Lucky 6.9 18:52, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * "is about to go down in Latin Rap history!". He can get an entry after he has gone down in history :). Delete. Thue 19:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep. Delete - David Gerard 19:22, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * I like that "goon" typo. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 19:58, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Aww, you fixed it :( -- Cyrius|✎ 21:17, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article itself says he's not yet notable. Andrewa 01:45, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. --Newdawnfades 15:57, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Phartcore metal
"Phartcore was coined by Kiyoshi Morgan, in 2004 to describe a previously undefined category of music..." No google hits. Maximus Rex 18:57, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete if no evidence can be found - David Gerard 19:21, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. No google hits. Thue 19:39, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete since it doesn't seem to be an established genre, and we have no way of knowing if it exists at all. Sounds like it was only intended as an insult to somebody. Everyking 21:23, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * "Fart"core sounds like somebody's personal joke. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:00, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * I vote against deletion of this genre because it obviously has some merit if it insights negativity towards it. I vote for keeping the genre as listed because there is nothing that suggest it doesn't exist. The explaination for fartcore has technicality to it and it shows the limited perspectives of other users who claim that "it doesn't exist". It is obvious that the entry was made to categorize a real group of genres, that were previously undefined. If grouping genres into a new genre is wrong, why are entries like Nu-Metal allowed to exist? Because you "Say" it is real? Again, I see no votes to remove many other musical genres which I find by default don't exist in of themselves. Some of those genre entries are based on misnomers and fallacies! Nu-Metal is not actually Metal for example. Fartcore, goes to describe something that "is as it is" instead of misleading someone to thinking its something else. SkunkHunt May 25, 2004 (UTC)

There is no such word as phartcore. If there were an article about fartcore, it might merit retention. RickK 23:21, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Do you mean the entry into wikipedia is not an article of itself? There must be an outside reference to a document talking about Phartcore somewhere? If there was an article of such nature, then what? Is voting against this genre mainly due to negativity in realizing that it might actually be true? Should example bands be mentioned in the wikipedia entry of Phartcore? I still retract to my original vote against deletion on the basis that it actually categorizes without misleading, where as some genres are misleading even in their own naming. Misnomer, or fallacies aside, I think its funny to be so offended by the rationality behind it, however silly it may seem, I take it seriously to defend this entry. I however, conceed to the Wikicommunity if it were to be voted out. I did not intend the entry to be a joke, but if it can't be updated to be compliant with "merit for retention", and get some kind of positive response from someone, go ahead and delete it. I apologize that you had to read the entry in the first place. Thanks. SkunkHunt 23:47, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * The votes against it are caused by the fact that we have no verification of its existence, and its name reads like a poorly disguised example of toilet humor. "Insights (sic) negativity" is not a valid reason to keep an article. -- Cyrius|&#9998 00:00, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, for heaven's sake! SkunkHunt, please take a moment to read the article assuming that you didn't write it in the first place.  One person just coined the phrase, possibly as an insult or inside joke.  There is no such thing as "phartcore metal" outside this discussion, and this probably should be speedily deleted as patent nonsense. - Lucky 6.9 00:13, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

 * "no such thing as "phartcore metal" outside this discussion" is an assuming statement. Outside this discussion, discussions occured with other people involving the discovery of Phartcore. You dismiss this possibility when you say there is no such thing as this discussion. How is that possible if I am here today to discuss it with you. I didn't just make it up at the spir of the moment. It was something I heard someone talking about at a music store. Until I can find some documentation to verify its existence, I'll just have to accept your determination about what I know exists or doesn't exist. SkunkHunt 11:37, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Right. We're all voting to delete this thing because we're afraid it might be true. Your contention is ludicrous. RickK 01:19, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. No evidence that the title is encyclopedic. The current contents appear to be an attempt at humour, which leads me to guess so is the title. Andrewa 01:42, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I feel strongly that its "all of you versus me" on this one. I did however state facts to verify the existence of this genre, and if it is "an attempt at humor" like you say so, then so is "Nu-Metal" ... "Rapcore" and every other non-true or misleading genre. Why? Merely because I said so? Not really. I concede. Delete the phartcore metal genre from wikipedia, I'm sorry that you can't see at all in a serious light why this category was discovered. SkunkHunt 11:23, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * There IS a genre called fartcore. I don't deny that.  There is, however, no genre called phartcore.  If you want to right an article about fartcore, please do so.  159.225.155.86 19:37, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Orphan, at least article-wise. Zero hits on both Yahoo and Google for "Phartcore metal". Niteowlneils 15:38, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Dunc Harris | Talk 17:50, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Skunkhunt, but it seems you do not exist. You are merely a product of your own imagination, but since an imagination can only be a product of a concrete intelligence, then even your illusion of existence is only an illusion. You are, in fact, nothing more than the projection of an article composed entirely of moving electrons, insubstantial in and of themselves, which have coalesced to form the illusionary words phartcore and skunkhunt. When this article has been deleted, your illusion of your illusion will also cease to exist, but you, being nonexistent, will be unaware of that moment. You may be offended by the rationality behind it, however silly it may seem, but you ought to take it seriously enough to delete this entry. Denni 22:29, 2004 May 26 (UTC)
 * Utterly brilliant (and hilarious) as always, Denni. May I direct your attention a little farther down the page to the happy discussion we're having about "Toas?"  Your remarkable insight would be greatly appreciated. - Lucky 6.9 22:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Saying I don't exist is an example of the dogma you guys are giving me. I will have proof to end this "vote for deletion" soon enough. SkunkHunt 22:52, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Original research. What is with the long drawn-out rambles on this page lately, anywho?

Trosh
''A Trosh is a small weevil made out of carbord. It has only one purpose, to hang on a tree during christmas.'' No meaningful google hits for 'Trosh' and 'christmas'. I don't get why it links to that website. I am listing it here because the author deleted my msg:delete. Thue 21:34, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

'''I can confirm that a trosh is used at christmas to hang on a christmas tree. That site used to have info about the decoration but it seems to have changed, I'll take off the link.'''

 * Please be aware that anonymous votes on this part of wikipedia do not count towards consensus to keep or delete an article. Neither do unsigned ones. -- Graham  :) | Talk 21:47, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * You missed the important part. That comment was posted by 82.43.161.71, the author of the article. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:00, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes I assumed that was the case, I do accept the author's right though to defend their choice to create an article, as long as they do it in the right way. -- Graham :) | Talk 22:04, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * PS I vote to delete. -- Graham :) | Talk 21:58, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete if not verified by someone other than the author (or sockpuppets). -- Cyrius|✎ 22:00, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as nonsense. "Trosh boxing day" on Google turns up four unrelated hits, two of which are porn sites! - Lucky 6.9 22:30, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Probable joke by anon, no evidence that it's encyclopedic. Andrewa 01:33, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. DJ Clayworth 13:32, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Jerome War Relocation Center

 * Delete. Nothing but a paragraph that means someone is trying to use Wikipedia as a free word processor. 66.245.12.170 22:24, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Say, isn't this just a teensy bit POV? Delete.  Please.  Conspiracy theorists make me break out in a rash. - Lucky 6.9 00:28, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Part of an essay. Doesn't even describe the subject of the article, or at least not in terms that match the article name. Andrewa 01:28, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Argument for a cause, not an encyclopedia article. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:21, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. RickK 03:27, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. If there is not a decent article about Japanese-American (or Ukrainian-Canadian or whatever) internment camps in Wiki, then there really ought to be. Unfortunately, this is not only not a decent article, it's not even an article. It's just a rant. Denni 06:21, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Tarppy
To quote the article: "A special and local term used in The University of Hong Kong ONLY". Unimportant, unverifiable. Fredrik 22:32, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not a dictionary, especially of slang with isolated usage, and in another language. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 00:10, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:31, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Average Earthman 11:42, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. DJ Clayworth 13:23, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Chung Ling Record
Similar to Wan Ling Record. This was contributed by a user who was only around for one day and added only quotes. This article consists entirely of, not surprisingly, a series of quotes. - Nat Krause 14:18, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. It's a name of some Buddhist text and this looks like a collection of quotes from it. I would be glad if Wikipedia had articles about Buddhist texts but they should be in encyclopedic style. Not collections of quotes without any explanation. Andris 14:52, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

Stuffology
Patent nonsense. Meelar 20:36, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Looks like a speedy candidate.  BJAODN? - Lucky 6.9 21:08, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I deleted it once, but it was recreated, so I thought that the author should have the chance to see the reasoning. Meelar 21:52, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I got a chuckle out of it. Delete, BJAODN. -- Cyrius|&#9998 21:22, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Patent nonsense. Andris 21:35, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Joke. Andrewa 01:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge with WP:-) and delete.

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debates and is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issues or the deletions should be placed on other relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Evans & Sutherland

Redirect
This should be a redirect. There is already a full article on the company at Evans and Sutherland AlainV 04:58, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

 * That link now redirects to this article. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Notability
Does the article really merit inclusion in Wikipedia? It's a dinky company. There are hundreds of thousands, perahps million, of companies this size. Most of this article violates policies of neutrality and pushing POV.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsharvy (talk • contribs) 10:54, 19 July 2007

 * Ummm, are you sure you understand the policies you're quoting? Maury 12:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * In the history of computer technology, you must have no idea who Ivan Sutherland is. 143.232.210.38 (talk) 00:50, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 143, you are replying to a comment three years old! But while I agree that Ivan Sutherland is notable, and E&S probably is, the article as it stands has no reliable sources, and therefore does not establish its WP:Notability. --ColinFine (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Rediffusion
Removed the wikilink to Rediffusion, as the companies referred to on that dab page are not obviously germane - there is no mention of flight simulators. I suspect that the link should actually be to British Electric Traction, but they are not mentioned there either. --ColinFine (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Flight Simulation Notes
Several key E&S employees came from General Electric when the flight simulation division became part of the company. One was Rawlin Evans and another was Gary Starr. As nearly as I can recall, GE didn't see that this would be a profitable undertaking and wanted to close down operations, so the core team went to E&S. These were actually the first people in management who knew how to manufacture a product on a commercial scale. As a former employee of E&S, I can safely say that the relationship with Redifon Simulation/Rediffusion was the cash cow for decades. Redifon flight simulators are still to be found in airline and military pilot training facilities all over the world. There were two product lines - the Novoview and the CT series --17:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC)Mccainre (talk) 18:03, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Use in movies editorial comments
I moved these comments from the film and television section:

 * E&S's first movie was not the wrath of Khan ... it was many years early in TRON. ...also Jim Blinn uses E&S h/w for much of his NASA animation in the 80's ... I worked at E&S from 1979 ... Rod Olsen

Feel free to find references and integrate back into article. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 12:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Evans & Sutherland


text:
Talk:List of ancient Egyptians

Untitled
The rationale for saying "ancient Egyptians" rather than "Ancient Egyptians" is that "ancient" is a modern convention for a particular time period in Egypt, not an actual name of a country. In other words, nobody on this list ever said "I am an Ancient Egyptian" as someone might today say "I am a New Yorker". Another way to look at this is to say it's a subset of list of Egyptians, namely the ones that lived in ancient times (which is not well-defined BTW - Pharoanic? Hellenistic? pre-Arab? the list head should say), which is an adjective applied to Egyptianness, not a different proper name. One could have a list of Upper Egyptians, because "Upper Egypt" is a proper name. Finally, this form of list corresponds with list of ancient Romans and list of ancient Greeks. Stan 04:58, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes that is true but they would not have referred to themselves as Egyptians either. We substitute the name of the country Kemet for ours Ancient Egypt. However you are also correct in the nebulous nature of Ancient Egypt, as it generally includes the Pharaonic, Hellenistic, and Roman periods but generally excludes the Byzantine and pre-dynastic periods. I am not particularly upset over the move,  just curious as to why you moved it and intereseted in discussing your reasoning. As you already know from our encounter over Fouquieria, I am not fond of the nebulous. So, since we have both agreed on the nebulous nature of the term, and since there is already a precedent, I will accept the move. In other words I buy your rationale, sort of. :)

 * -JCarriker 06:10, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd never heard of "Ancient Egypt" as a literal synonym for Kemet, but I'm no Egyptologist. I guess the intent is to have the list just be Pharaonic-era people, though? Any later named Egyptians are going to be Greek, Roman, etc, they'll have Greek/Roman names and kind of look out of place, plus which they're on the other lists already. By that reasoning your original name is right - the alternate list of Pharaonic Egyptians will auto-discourage additions of people from later eras, but that title will be too mystifying to most readers. Stan 06:54, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually the list will include Egyptian born Greeks from the Ptolomaic Dynasty because th Ptolomies were still Pharaohs. Egypt was a multicultural civilization, I known that their is an Egyptian of Canaanite descent already on the list and there is already one Ptolomaic period person present as well. The usual end of Pharonic civilization is given as the Roman Conquest of Octavian. So the youngest people on the list should be Cleopatra VII's children or ther contemporaries.

 * You might want to check out The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, ISBN 0-19-280293-3.

 * If you like Romans you might also want to read Cicero: The Life and Times of Rome's Greatest Politician by Anthony Everitt, ISBN 0-375-50746-9

 * It is my favorite historical biography of all time, I'm currently reading it for the third time. Everitt writes soooo well!
 * (Sorry for the typos it's 3:30 am in East Texas).
 * -JCarriker 08:51, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

Provision of brief descriptions for each individual on this list
To assist a reader get a better idea of who each of the people on this list are (particularly given all the similar names and complex naming issues), I have added brief descriptions for each of the individuals on the list. I have tried to include the relevant dynasty in place at the time each indivdual lived and I have also provided a approximate date that each individual lived (sometimes to the nearest century is the most appropriate). All the information in the summaries (including dynasty and dates) is based on the Wikipedia articles. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions (including any errors or omissions) about my changes. Also, I would be interested in any comments on the concept of providing summaries of all the people on a biographical list such as this one on Ancient Egyptians. Thanks --Chewings72 (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Would maybe a table format help here? I'm thinking: Just a thought! --AnnekeBart (talk) 14:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes, putting the information in a tabular format does look much neater and easier to read compared to what I have done. The main reason I did not do that from the start was that I was worried that the table might look uneven where a "note" on a particular person was quite lengthy.  Nevertheless, I think you are correct to suggest a table.  When I get the time I will look at revising the list into a table format.  By the way, I note you added Euclid into the list.  I was wondering whether I should include in a list of Ancient Egyptians individuals who were of Greek origin/birth but who lived or worked in Ptolemaic Egypt for some, most or all of their lives.  --Chewings72 (talk) 06:28, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have played around with the table format a bit and decided on some fixed column widths so that the table is displayed the same across all the letters from the index. I hope you don't mind, but I shortened some of the Ptolemaic entries. I don't have a lot of free time at the moment so I can only do a little bit at a time. --AnnekeBart (talk) 13:59, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

China & Africa
On recounting an event during the Han Dynasty, the author mentions an Egyptian Queen the Chinese called "Keliaomotela." Have you ever heard of her, or is this their name for an already known queen?74.229.102.208 (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of ancient Egyptians


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Interview to Michael Albert in es.wikinews
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User talk:Andyabides

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title: User talk:Andyabides


text: User talk:69.38.37.161

title: User talk:69.38.37.161


text:
Talk:Sneferu

Cartouche
I made my first attempt at using Wiki's new hieroglyphic encoding (see WikiHiero and WikiHiero/Syntax) to do Sneferu's cartouche on this page. If anyone else wants to join in the fun, I found the cartouche at. Further info on the Hieroglyph Coding Manual syntax (including the codes for cartouches, which aren't documented on the above Wiki pages) can be found at Manuel de Codage. --Stormie 05:03, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

Crackpot to controversial
I modified the language of the article from crackpot to controversial. Why? There is a tendency for the 'academic' world to dismiss the stories of Egypt from the Bible. And there is a similar tendency for Biblical scholars to dismiss the academic world. In the interests of keeping this article neutral and balanced, I modified the language to be less inflammatory. --Paulrach 09:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Request
A new user, Bio0003 has created and an article Date birth of sneferu which I am speedy deleting as CSD A3, as it a request for information on Sneferu. I am including his request here just in case this can be answered for him. All grammar and spelling are Bio0003's.

 * can you please make a page on the birth date and about sneferu's birth on his documentry because it only says when he reaighned. i know that this is not an email but eventualy you read this, find out the date of birth and then fix it. if no date of birth it obviously is no help. fix your mistake please. i am just a person wanting information for school and not getting it. ta. Logan Biondo w.h.s.c. please make this as soon as possable.xx Dsmdgold 03:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't know for sure, but it may be that his date of birth is not actually known. --Stormie 05:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Name section
It's good to have one, but the recent edit gives no sources and could be OR. What I can find sourced is "snefer can be translated as 'to make beautiful' Ian Shaw, The Oxfored History of Ancient Egypt. Doug Weller (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that the actual translation, per Abd'el Hakim Awyan (an indigenous knowledge keeper) is NOT what Shaw surmised, but rather sne="double" and "fer"="harmony e.g. "Double Harmony" WikiMinstrel (talk) 20:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Praise of the Two Lands
It seems that Sneferu made a boat by this title. Where can I get information on that boat?--Doug Coldwell talk 19:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the only reference I could find. Look on page 20. I guess that's not much help though. --Woland (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Building projects
I changed this since it seems that Meidum is not in Dahshur. See Wiki on those pages. Jmefr (talk) 11:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sneferu


text: User talk:67.165.107.16

title: User talk:67.165.107.16


text:
Monotonicity of entailment

Monotonicity of entailment is a property of many logical systems such that if a sentence follows deductively from a given set of sentences then it also follows deductively from any superset of those sentences. A corollary is that if a given argument is deductively valid, it cannot become invalid by the addition of extra premises.

Logical systems with this property are called monotonic logics in order to differentiate them from non-monotonic logics. Classical logic and intuitionistic logic are examples of monotonic logics.

Weakening rule
Monotonicity may be stated formally as a rule called weakening, or sometimes thinning. A system is monotonic if and only if the rule is admissible. The weakening rule may be expressed as a natural deduction sequent:
 * $$\frac{\Gamma \vdash C}{\Gamma, A \vdash C } $$

This can be read as saying that if, on the basis of a set of assumptions $$\Gamma$$, one can prove C, then by adding an assumption A, one can still prove C.

Example
The following argument is valid: "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal." This can be weakened by adding a premise: "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Cows produce milk. Therefore Socrates is mortal." By the property of monotonicity, the argument remains valid with the additional premise, even though the premise is irrelevant to the conclusion.

Non-monotonic logics
In most logics, weakening is either an inference rule or a metatheorem if the logic doesn't have an explicit rule. Notable exceptions are:

 * Relevance logic, where every premise is necessary for the conclusion.
 * Linear logic, which lacks monotonicity and idempotency of entailment.

title: Monotonicity of entailment


text:
Noble Automotive

Noble Automotive Ltd, more commonly known simply as Noble, is an English sports car manufacturer based in Leicester. Noble Automotive Ltd. was established in 1999 by Lee Noble in Leeds, West Yorkshire, for producing high-speed sports cars with a rear mid-engine, rear-wheel drive layout. Lee Noble was the chief designer and part owner of Noble. The company was sold in August 2006. He left the company in February 2008 and shortly after announced his new venture, Fenix Automotive in 2009. Noble is a low-production English sports car company, its past products include the M12 GTO, M12 GTO-3, M12 GTO-3R and Noble M400. The M12 GTO-3R and M400 share chassis and body, but have minor differences in engines and suspensions. The M15 has a new space frame chassis. The body and chassis of the Noble is built by Hi-Tech Automotive in Port Elizabeth, South Africa alongside Superformance cars. Once the body shell is completed, it is sent to the Noble factory where the engines, transmissions, etc. are added. In 2009 Noble released the M600 with 650 bhp available from its 4.4-litre V8 Volvo derived twin turbocharged engine with a Graziano 6 speed manual gearbox.

Only 220 Noble GTO-3Rs and M400s were exported to the US. They are the only Nobles available to the American market. The US distribution rights to the M12s and M400s were sold in February 2007 to 1G Racing from Ohio. Due to high demand of these cars, 1G released its own copy, named Rossion Q1.

Noble M10 (1999–2000)
The Noble M10 is a two-door, two seater model built in convertible form only. It is powered by a naturally aspirated (i.e., no turbo charger) 2.5-litre engine. It was introduced in 1999, but is no longer in production, having been replaced by the M12. Only a few were ever made, as customers moved deposits onto the M12 as soon as its credentials were announced.

Noble M12 (2000–2008)

Like the Noble M10, the Noble M12 is a two-door, two-seater model, originally planned both as a coupe and as a convertible. All M12s have been powered by specially tuned turbocharged Ford Duratec V6 engines.

The M12 has a full steel roll cage, steel frame, and fibre glass composite clam shell body parts. These cars are extremely lightweight and stiff. Although track derived, the M12 performs well on both road and track. The coupe evolved through four variants, with the M400 being the ultimate version of the M12, followed by the GTO-3R.

 * Noble M12 GTO – 2.5L bi-turbo 310 bhp
 * Noble M12 GTO-3 – 3.0L bi-turbo 352 bhp
 * Noble M12 GTO-3R – 3.0L bi-turbo 352 bhp

0–60 mph (0–97 km/h) in 3.7 seconds was published in the official brochure of the M12 GTO-3R, Road and Track indicated a 0–60 mph performance of 3.3 seconds, but subsequently listed it as 3.5 seconds. Its top speed is listed as 170 mph. Lateral Gs are reported in excess of 1.2. Noble enthusiasts often modify their cars for even greater performance. It is widely believed that just 165 M12 GTO 3-R models were made in the UK upon the owners findings on such sites as pistonheads.com and even fewer were made for the GTO-3 and GTO versions.

Noble M400 (2004-2007)
The M400 is the track variant of the M12. Its power-to-weight ratio is over 400 bhp per ton, and is the figure from which its model name derives. It has 425 bhp and has been reported to do 0–60 mph (0–97 km/h) in as little as 2.97 seconds. Car and Driver (March 2007) achieved a 0–60 mph time of 3.3 seconds and a 0–100 mph time of 7.52 seconds. Although often listed as 0-60 mph in 3.5 seconds, the M400 generally comes in at 3.2 seconds according to various publications and generally listed amongst the fastest accelerating cars. Noble indicates only that the car is capable of achieving 0–60 mph in under 4 seconds. Its top speed is listed as 185 mph (300 km/h). A top speed of 202 mi/h has been achieved by Noble's former press officer. Lateral Gs are reported in excess of 1.2. It has both a 3-point seatbelt and a 5-point harness.

The most notable differences from the M12 are the use of forged pistons, T28 turbos, a front anti-roll bar, stiffer springs, different shocks, Pirelli P Zero tyres, a smoother gear shifter, and a slightly narrower central tunnel as the driver now sits a bit more central than previous models. Exterior differences remain subtle. The colour scheme tends to incorporate anthracite (Gris) wheels, rear wing supports and wing ends but some examples maintain silver wheels and supports. The front splitter is now removed (Although many owners opt to have this put on). The main change is the addition of side pods to enhance air into the system and to create a visual impact. Air conditioning is now an £1,995 option and adds to the weight. The interior has an added oil gauge that resides next to the boost one. Additionally the Sparco Alcantara seats and finishings differ to the other Noble's (Alcantara is one third the weight of leather). The Noble M400 won the car of the year award in 2005 for one publication. The M400 is designed to be an outstanding track car that is also pleasant to drive on the road. With just 75 examples made (UK/Europe) this version is sought after and rare.

Noble M14 (Prototype)
The Noble M14 debuted at the 2004 British International Motor Show and generated significant interest in the motoring press. It was planned to compete with the Porsche 911 Turbo and Ferrari F430. It was based on the chassis of the M12, with only minor modifications. It had a new body and a more up market interior. Following the debut of the car Lee Noble decided that the car was insufficiently different from the M12/M400 to justify the price increase despite having taken a number of deposits. Noble instead developed a brand new car, the M15, developing further from the M12 and M14, although the cars have few common components.

Noble M15 (2006-2011)
Production of the M15 was planned to begin in early 2006, but has not taken place. The Noble M15 was intended to appeal to a far broader market and compete directly with the Porsche 911 Turbo and Ferrari F430. As a result, the Noble M15 was expected to have a number of features not previously found on Nobles such as satnav, traction control, electric windows and ABS. The company issued a press release about the M15, stating that the M15 will be produced after the introduction of the M600. The M15 of the future will be different than the car shown in 2006.

Despite increased comfort and usability compared to previous Noble cars press releases stated that Noble expected the M15 to be significantly quicker than the M400 around a race track. It is able to accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–97 km/h) in 3.3 seconds and has a top speed of 185 mph (298 km/h).

The car was based on a brand new platform with a longitudinally mounted engine connected to a bespoke gearbox created by Graziano. The double wishbone suspension is a development of the system mounted on the M400. Mounting the engine longitudinally allowed the designer to increase cooling flow to the engine which allows the 3.0L twin turbo V6 to produce 455 bhp. The engine was designed to meet emissions regulations and the new steel/aluminium space frame was designed with a view to passing crash test regulations around the world. The M15 was planned to be the first Noble to gain European and US Type Approval.

According to founder Lee Noble, "I wanted to produce a supercar people could use every day. It was time for Noble to take a big step up in terms of refinement, practicality and style."

The M15 appeared in Top Gear and presenter Richard Hammond was very impressed. It was a lot quicker around the Top Gear track than the old Noble. According to Richard this has to do with the new, stronger gearbox which enables Noble to allow more boost and let the same engine produce more power. The Stig managed a lap time of 1:22.5 which is currently 50th on the power lap board.

Noble M600 (2010-2018)

In 2010, Noble began sales production of the M600. It has a Volvo twin-turbocharged V8 engine (producing 650 bhp, 485 kW, 659 PS), a carbon fibre body shell, and a 6-speed Graziano gear box. It competes in the same category as the Ferrari F430. The 2800 lbs M600 can accelerate from 0–62 mph (100 km/h) in 3.5 seconds and requires only another 4 seconds to achieve 100 mph. It has over 1G of grip on the skid pad. The brake discs in the Noble M600 are steel. The Noble comes with no ABS or ASM. It does have TCS as standard, although this can be totally disabled via a fighter jet style missile switch. The Noble M600 has a high reputation as a pure driver's car. Noble publicly tested an M600 prototype 2 in the US, comparing its performance with a Porsche Carrera GT and Ferrari Enzo. This prototype was detuned to 500 bhp (373 kW; 507 PS). According to UK enthusiast website ATFULLCHAT Noble Automotive have not ignored the possibility of building an M600 roadster. On 21 June 2012 the website published a rendering of an M600 drophead that was commissioned internally by Noble Automotive, although company MD Peter Boutwood is quoted as stating there are no plans at present to produce such a machine. However, in 2016 Matt Prior of Autocar tested the cabriolet version now called the M600 Speedster. Giving it 4 stars even though it was still in the development stages. Evo also reviewed the Speedster claiming “Whereas the Lamborghini Huracán and Aventador feels compromised by having its roof sliced away, the Speedster is close to undamaged.”

Initial projected production would be limited to fifty cars and at least thirty were produced. M600 production stopped in 2018.

Other sources

 * "Noble steals the (British Motor) show with a surprise new supercar", a Car Enthusiast article

title: Noble Automotive


text:
Scaly-breasted munia

The scaly-breasted munia or spotted munia (Lonchura punctulata), known in the pet trade as nutmeg mannikin or spice finch, is a sparrow-sized estrildid finch native to tropical Asia. A species of the genus Lonchura, it was formally described and named by Carl Linnaeus in 1758. Its name is based on the distinct scale-like feather markings on the breast and belly. The adult is brown above and has a dark conical bill. The species has 11 subspecies across its range, which differ slightly in size and color.

This munia eats mainly grass seeds apart from berries and small insects. They forage in flocks and communicate with soft calls and whistles. The species is highly social and may sometimes roost with other species of munias. This species is found in tropical plains and grasslands. Breeding pairs construct dome-shaped nests using grass or bamboo leaves.

The species is endemic to Asia and occurs from India and Sri Lanka east to Indonesia and the Philippines (where it is called mayang pakíng). It has been introduced into many other parts of the world, and feral populations have established in Puerto Rico and Hispaniola, as well as parts of Australia, and the United States of America, with sightings in California. The bird is listed as of least concern by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN).

Taxonomy
In 1743 the English naturalist George Edwards included an illustration and a description of the scaly-breasted munia in the first volume of his A Natural History of Uncommon Birds. He used the English name "Gowry Bird". Edwards based his hand-coloured etching on a specimen at the London home of Charles du Bois, treasurer to the East India Company. When in 1758 the Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus updated his Systema Naturae for the tenth edition, he placed the scaly-breasted munia with the crossbills in the genus Loxia. Linnaeus included a brief description, coined the binomial name Loxia punctulata and cited Edwards' work. Linnaeus specified the locality as "Asia" but this was restricted to Kolkata (Calcutta) by E. C. Stuart Baker in 1926. The species is now placed in the genus Lonchura that was introduced by the English naturalist William Henry Sykes in 1832. The genus name Lonchura combines the Ancient Greek lonkhē meaning "spear-head" or "lance" with oura meaning "tail". The specific epithet is from Modern Latin punctulatus meaning "spotted" or "dotted".

Over its large range there are 11 recognised subspecies. These include the nominate form found in the plains of the Indian Subcontinent, including Pakistan, India, Iran, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The name lineoventer was formerly used for the Indian population. Other populations include subundulata from the eastern Himalayas, yunnanensis of southern China, topela of Thailand, cabanisi of the Philippines and fretensis of Singapore and Sumatra. Island populations include nisoria (Java, Bali, Lombok, Sumbawa), particeps (Sulawesi), baweana (Bawean Island), sumbae (Sumba) and blasii (Flores, Timor and Tanimbar).
 * L. p. punctulata (Linnaeus, 1758) – northern Pakistan, India (except northeast), Nepal terai and Sri Lanka
 * L. p. subundulata (Godwin-Austen, 1874) – Bhutan, Bangladesh, northeast India (Assam) and west Myanmar
 * L. p. yunnanensis Parkes, 1958 – southern China (southeast Xizang, south Sichuan, Yunnan) and north Myanmar
 * L. p. topela (R. Swinhoe, 1863) – southern Myanmar, Thailand, southeast China (Taiwan), Hainan Islands, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam
 * L. p. cabanisi (Sharpe, 1890) – north and west Philippines (Luzon, Mindoro, Calauit, Palawan, Panay, Negros, Cebu, Mindanao) and northern Borneo (coastal west Sabah and Brunei)
 * L. p. fretensis (Kloss, 1931) – south Malay Peninsula, Singapore, Sumatra and Nias Islands
 * L. p. nisoria (Temminck, 1830) – southern Borneo (western & southern Kalimantan), Java, Bali, and western Lesser Sundas (Lombok, Sumbawa)
 * L. p. sumbae Mayr, 1944 – Sumba, in western Lesser Sundas
 * L. p. blasii (Stresemann, 1912) – central & eastern Lesser Sundas (Flores east to Timor and Tanimbar Islands)
 * L. p. baweana Hoogerwerf, 1963 – Bawean Islands, off northeast Java
 * L. p. particeps (Riley, 1920) – Sulawesi

The subspecies holmesi (southeast Borneo) is sometimes recognised.

Description
The scaly-breasted munia is about 11 – long and weighs 12 –. The adult has a stubby dark bill typical of grain eating birds, brown upperparts and a dark brown head. The underparts are white with dark scale markings. The sexes are similar, although males have darker markings on the underside and a darker throat than females.

Immature birds have pale brown upperparts, lack the dark head found in adults, and have uniform buff underparts that can be confused with juveniles of other munia species such as the tricolored munia (Lonchura malacca) across the Asian and island populations and the black-throated munia (Lonchura kelaarti) in parts of India or Sri Lanka.

Distribution and habitat
Scaly-breasted munias are found in a range of habitats but are usually close to water and grassland. In India, they are especially common in paddy fields where they are considered a minor pest on account of their feeding on grain. They are found mainly on the plains, but can be observed in the foothills of the Himalayas, in which they may be present at altitudes near 2500 m, and in the Nilgiris, where they are found at altitudes up to 2100 m during the summer. In Pakistan, they are restricted to a narrow region from Swat in the west to Lahore, avoiding the desert zone, and then occurring again in India east of an area between Ludhiana and Mount Abu. The species has also been observed in Kashmir, though this is rare.

Outside their native range, escaped birds frequently establish themselves in areas with a suitable climate and can then colonize new areas nearby. Escaped cage-birds established in the wild and such populations have been recorded in the West Indies (Puerto Rico since 1971), Hawaii (since 1883 ), Japan and southern United States, mainly in Florida and California. In Oahu, Hawaii, they compete for habitats with the tricolored munia and tend to be rare where this competitor is present. The species has been introduced to other parts of the world due to its popularity as a cage bird and populations have established in the wild.

Sociality
Scaly-breasted munias form flocks of as many as 100 birds. Individuals communicate with calls that include a short whistle, variations of kitty-kitty-kitty, and a sharp chipping alarm note. They sometimes flick their tails and wings vertically or horizontally while hopping about. The tail flicking motion may have evolved from a locomotory intention movement. The exaggerated version of the tail flicking movement may have undergone ritualization. As a social signal, tail flicking in several other species acts as a signal indicating the intent to fly and helps keep flocks together.

When roosting communally, scaly-breasted munia sit side by side in close contact with each other. The outermost bird often jostles towards the center. Birds in a flock sometimes preen each other, with the soliciting bird usually showing its chin. Allopreening is usually limited to the face and neck. The scaly-breasted munia is rarely hostile but birds will sometimes quarrel without any ritualized posturing.

Breeding
The breeding season is during the summer rainy season (mainly June to August and also in October season in India) but can vary. Laboratory studies have found that long day illumination and high humidity trigger gonadal growth. The song of the male is very soft but complex and variable, audible only at close range. This song described as a jingle consists of a series of high notes followed by a croaky rattle and ending in a slurred whistle. When singing the male sits in what is called the slope posture—erect with the head feathers raised.

There are two types of slope posture, a pre-copulatory one and an ordinary one. The pre-copulatory behavior of scaly-breasted munia includes a sequence of actions. The first involves either the male or female playing with nest-material. As soon as a bird has arranged the nest material in its bill, it begins to fly around in a zigzag path. Once a bird lands close to its partner, the male bends towards the female and wipes its bill. The male then sings with movements of the body. The female invites mounting with tail quivering. The nest is a large domed structure loosely woven from blades of grass, bamboo or other leaves with a side entrance and is placed in a tree or under the eaves of a house. A study in southern India found the preferred nesting trees to be Toddalia asiatica, Gymnosporia montana and Acacia chundra, especially short and bushy ones in areas with low canopy cover. The nest opening is located to face downwind of the most frequent wind direction. In northern India, they preferred isolated Acacia nilotica in non-urban areas but used Thuja orientalis and Polyalthia longifolia in urban gardens.

Scaly-breasted munia clutches usually contain 4 to 6 eggs, but can contain up to 10. Both sexes build the nest and incubate the eggs, which hatch in 10 to 16 days.

The species is extensively used as a brood host by the parasitic pin-tailed whydah in Southern California — where both species are feral — with the munia raising the whydah's chicks as its own. This relationship is novel, as the two species do not naturally co-occur in their native ranges, and had no established evolutionary relationship as parasite and host.

Food and foraging
The scaly-breasted munia feeds mainly on grass seeds, small berries such as those of Lantana and insects. Although the bill is suited for crushing small grains, they do not show lateral movements of the lower mandible which help European greenfinches in dehusking seeds. Like some other munias, they may also feed on algae, a rich protein source, prior to the breeding season.

The ease of maintaining these birds in captivity has made them popular for studying behavior and physiology. Feeding behavior can be predicted by the optimal foraging theory, where animals minimize time and energy spent to maximize food intake. This theory has been tested by studying the strategies used by scaly-breasted munias to increase their feeding efficacy.

Flock size tradeoffs
Studies on foraging have examined the effect of group size in reducing time spent on predator vigilance, thereby increasing feeding efficiency. According to the "many-eyes" hypothesis, a reduction in the individual time spent on vigilance against threats in larger groups allows for more time to be spent on searching for food and feeding. Vigilance is greatest among solitary individuals and reduces as the group size increases to about four. The birds collect seeds more quickly in larger groups, reflecting a decrease in individual vigilance, a decrease in handling time, and an increase in both search speed and focus when foraging.

Individuals may also take advantage of group foraging by "joining" members that have found food. The options to seek food or to join others that have discovered food involves information sharing and has been studied through what are termed "producer-scrounger models". A cost associated with group foraging is increased resource competition, which in turn may reduce anti-predatory vigilance due to the intensity of foraging. Some studies show that increased competition results in a decreased feeding rate.

Foraging models
When foraging, scaly-breasted munia can search as individuals or search for others that have found food and join them. The economic consequences of the decision to join others has been modeled in two ways: the producer-scrounger model and the information sharing model. These models are based on hypotheses that differ in the degree of compatibility that is assumed between the two food and joining opportunity search modes.

The information sharing model assumes that individuals search concurrently for finding and joining opportunities while the producer-scrounger model assumes that the search modes are mutually exclusive. Hopping with the head facing up and downward are observed to be statistically associated with the frequencies of a bird's joining and finding, respectively. When the expected stable frequency of the scrounger tactic was altered by changing the availability of seeds, the relative frequency of hopping with the head up changed accordingly. When the seed distribution made the scrounger tactic unprofitable, the frequency of hopping with the head up diminished and appears to support the predictions of the producer-scrounger model.

Studies show that scaly-breasted munias tend to adopt the scrounger tactic when food is more clumped and when the group size increases. When most foragers adopt scrounging, the time taken to discover new food patches is greater.

Vigilance
Most social foragers must search for food while also avoiding predators. It has been suggested that individuals that play scrounger could also, by virtue of their head position, be alert for predators and hence contribute to antipredatory vigilance. If the scrounger tactic is compatible with antipredatory vigilance, then an increase in antipredatory vigilance should lead to the detection of more joining opportunities, and hence more joining. When stationary, the head-up tactic has been shown to be associated with antipredatory vigilance. However scanning while hopping does not aid in vigilance and it is thought that the scrounger tactic is incompatible with antipredatory vigilance in the scaly-breasted munia.

Specialized foraging
Scaly-breasted munias have variable competitive behaviors that allow them to exploit scarce resources. There are two foraging alternatives: producers that make the food available and scroungers that steal food found by the producers. Studies show that these choices lead to a stable equilibrium within a group. When individuals are free to choose between producer and scrounger, frequency dependent selection results in a stable mixture of both behaviors where each receives similar payoff. Studies indicate that if most of the population consists of producers, then scrounging behavior is favored by natural selection because there is plenty of food to steal. On the other hand, if most birds exhibit scrounging then the competition for stealing is so great that producing is favored.

Three hypotheses might account for consistent foraging specializations across individuals: food source variation, phenotypic differences, and frequency dependent-choice. The food source variation hypothesis predicts that individuals will specialize when the use of two skills is more costly than specialist foraging. The phenotypic differences hypothesis proposes that individuals differ in their ability to use each foraging skill and stably specialize on the most profitable one. The pattern of specialization is expected to be stable although the number of individuals that use a given skill depends on the phenotypic composition of the flock. The frequency dependent choice hypothesis also proposes that individuals specialize on the most profitable skill, but the profitability of each alternative decreases as the number of phenotypically identical foragers gradually specialize on each skill when initially given two equally profitable alternatives. At equilibrium, individual payoffs should be independent of the pattern of specialization. Individuals in flocks adjusted their use of the two skills and two birds in each flock specialized on a different skill resulting in a variant of both the food source variation hypothesis and frequency dependent choice hypothesis.

Aviary experiments conducted with captive flocks of scaly-breasted munia have tested whether producers and scroungers reach the predicted stable equilibrium frequency (see Evolutionarily stable strategy) when individuals are free to choose either behavior. The numbers choosing either producers and scrounger strategies have been shown to converge on stable frequencies while demonstrating that variation in tactics arise through frequency dependent pay-offs from the choice of different feeding strategies.

Furthermore, foraging birds may feed actively on the substrate or pick grains dropped on the ground and these strategies may be chosen according to the situation. Early departures occur more often when expected searching time decreases and when competition intensity increases. Competition intensity is expected to increase when more scroungers are present or when patches are smaller.

Prey crypsis
Since producers search for food and scroungers wait for opportunities to join, prey crypsis imposes a producer specific cost that shifts the producer scrounger equilibria towards more scrounging. Prey crypsis resulted in increased latency to eat the seed and increased number of detection errors. Moreover, the presence of a competitor negatively affected foraging efficiency under cryptic backgrounds. The foraging efficiency of individuals that had previously foraged with a competitor on cryptic seeds remained low even after the competitor had been removed. Thus, the costs of foraging on cryptic prey may be greater for social foragers than for solitary foragers.

Resource defence
Recent models of economic defence in a group-foraging context predict that the frequency of aggressive interactions should decline as resource density increases. Studies with scaly-breasted munia show that the intensity of aggressive encounters was highest when patch location was signaled, and the effect of changing resource density depended on whether patch location was signaled or not. Signaling patch location was equivalent to making the resources more spatially predictable. Changing patch density had no effect on the number of aggressive encounters when the location of food was not signaled. When food location was signaled, increasing patch density resulted in the predicted decrease in the number of aggressive encounters.

Conservation
The scaly-breasted munia is an abundant species and classified as least concern on the IUCN Red List. The species occupies an extremely large range, and its population, while still unquantified, is large and stable. The scaly-breasted munia is not globally threatened and is common to very common throughout most of its range. However, some populations are dwindled due to the increase of bird cagings.

In many areas it is regarded as an agricultural pest, feeding in large flocks on cultivated cereals such as rice. In Southeast Asia, the scaly-breasted munia is trapped in large numbers for Buddhist ceremonies, but most birds are later released.

title: Scaly-breasted munia


text:
Talk:Ōbaku

How does Obaku differ from Rinzai and Soto?
How does Obaku differ from Rinzai and Soto? --Furrykef 05:12, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Links with possible use in expanding this article

 * -- text without sources cited? --Ooperhoofd 14:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

GA review
the article seems to be factual but the section Notable temples needs massive cleanup. bullet system won't be enough. please give proper description on these temples in two or three sentences. hope to see this article a GA soon. thanks, Sushant gupta (talk) 10:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

 * okay, that was a good start. Cheers, Sushant gupta (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * time over! sorry. the article currently don't meet the GA criteria. needs cleanup. thanks, Sushant gupta (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japanese-religions.jp/publications/assets/JR33_a_Baskind.pdf

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 13:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Additional sources
Joshua Jonathan -  Let's talk!  06:36, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Baroni (1993), Buddhism in Early Tofcugawa Japan The Case of Obaku

title: Talk:Ōbaku