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Talk:Srem District

Note
Note: ''All official material made by Government of Serbia is public by law. Information was taken from official website.

Names
See the relevant discussion about Hungarian names here.

Syrmia
I've anglified the title of the article according to Vukovarsko-srijemska županija (here is titled as Vukovar-Syrmia County). Kamarad Walter (talk) 08:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This title is in Croatian, and the entire district is in Serbia - so I believe that the name should be maintained in Serbian, or at least based on the Serbian. FMasic (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

use of the term Syrmia in modern-day administrative subdivision names
Please see Talk:Syrmia. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Name
Actually, the official and academic translation is Srem District or District of Srem. The unilateral move in 2008 to Syrmia District has since been reverted a couple of times. It should stay at Srem District.--Z oupan 06:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

 * In the meantime, 'Zoupan' was blocked as a sockpuppet, so I'm less inclined to take what they say seriously. Regardless...
 * can we apply the same logic from Talk:Vukovar-Syrmia County here? If Srem redirects to Syrmia, this exception doesn't quite make sense. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:52, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering what I said in the earlier discussion on Vukovar-Syrmia I don't see how I can say anything else but to agree. It would be my preference, particularly considering there are multiple official names for okrugs in Vojvodina (in Serbian, Slovak etc.). The only potential counterargument is that contrary to Croatian countries, all articles on okrugs in Serbia seems to use local names? Nevertheless, my strong preference would be to name it District of Syrmia or something like that. In general, if there is a cross-border region (with some small name difference) I think we should use English name if there is one. Different names may mislead or imply that there are 2 regions. There is one Syrmia region, one Bačka, one Baranya, one Istria, one Banat etc. and I think that administrative names clearly derived from them should recognize that reality despite contemporary state borders. The common state-centric practice may be different (or probably differ from case to case), it's just my opinion. I will be happy to hear arguments from anyone who may think differently, but right now I certainly prefer renaming the article per VSŽ example.--MirkoS18 (talk) 21:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As there seems to be lack of interest on this talk page, would you now like to make a formal RM? I don't want to make similar procedural omission here, but I will support the proposal.--MirkoS18 (talk) 14:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, will do that if I can find some time to examine sources. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

 * I had a look at https://www.google.com/search?q=%22syrmia+district%22&tbm=bks and indeed all of those seem to be references to what we have described at Syrmia County. A more general search for https://www.google.com/search?q=%22districts+of+serbia%22&tbm=bks also seems to tilt towards historical districts and not modern-day ones, though. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Srem District


text:
User:Topbanana/Reports/This is a popular page with few interwiki links

Overview
The list below shows popular pages in the main english article namespace (those to which many other articles link) which contain relatively few interwiki links. It was generated on 1st June 2004 from the 30th May 2004 database dump.

Preamble
One of the most radical features of Wikipedia is it's multiligual nature. Interwiki links connect articles on the same subject in different languages. The most popular articles should exist in as many languages as possible. If you can, locate the corresponding articles in non-english wikipedias, translate the English article to create a new foreign language one.

Suggested improvements

 * A tabular format may be easier to read. - TB 09:58, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Probably need to fine-tune the limits used by this report. - TB 09:58, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Need a better definition of 'popular' - many of the articles shown are linked to by robot generated pages. - TB 10:00, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

List
List removed, was hideously out of date - TB 18:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
User:Topbanana/Reports/This is a popular page with no interwiki links

Overview
The list below shows popular pages in the main english article namespace (those to which many other articles link) which contain no interwiki links. It was generated on 1st June 2004 from the 30th May 2004 database dump.

Preamble
One of the most radical features of Wikipedia is its multiligual nature. Interwiki links connect articles on the same subject in different languages. The most popular articles should exist in as many languages as possible. If you can, locate the corresponding articles in non-english wikipedias, translate the English article to create a new foreign language one.

Suggested improvements

 * Need a better definition of 'popular' - many of the articles shown are linked to by robot generated pages. - TB 09:59, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

List
List removed, was hideously out of date - TB 18:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


text:
Mačva District

The Mačva District (Мачвански округ / Mačvanski okrug, ) is one of eight administrative districts of Šumadija and Western Serbia. It expands in the western parts of Serbia, in the geographical regions of Mačva, Podrinje, Posavina, and Pocerina. According to the 2011 census results, it has a population of 298,931 inhabitants. The administrative center of the Mačva district is the city of Šabac.

Cities and municipalities
The district encompasses the cities of Šabac and Loznica and municipalities of:
 * Bogatić
 * Vladimirci
 * Koceljeva
 * Mali Zvornik
 * Krupanj
 * Ljubovija

Demographics
According to the last official census done in 2011, the Маčva District has 298,931 inhabitants. 29.14% of the population live in the urban areas.

Ethnic groups
Ethnic composition of the Mačva district:

History and culture
Famous monuments can be seen in the vicinity of Šabac, dedicated to events from the history of Serbian people: the Monument to Karađorđe and Serbian Heroes of the First Serbian Uprising and the Museum of the Battle of Mišar, the remnants of the ancient cities on the banks of the Sava river: Novo Selo, the site of the King Milutin's Palace and Kosanin grad, the medieval fortress on the Cer Mountain.

Not far away from Loznica stands the village of Tršić, the birthplace of the reformer of Serbian language and orthography, Vuk Karadžić. From Tršić, a footpath leads to the Tronoša Monastery, one of the oldest medieval endowments of the Nemanjić dynasty. This fourteenth-century monastery played an important part in the preservation of Serbian culture and tradition. Over a long period, particularly during the fourteenth century, a copying school tradition was nourished in it for its own and other monasteries' needs. This preserved the historic and cultural documents of the Serbian people.

title: Mačva District


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Category:Auto racing

Auto racing is a racing sport where automobiles are raced through a course. The objective is usually to cover a fixed distance in the least amount of time (e.g. Indianapolis 500). In some cases, this is reversed so that the objective is to cover the greatest distance in a fixed amount of time (e.g. 24 Hours of Le Mans).

For motorcycle racing, see Category:Motorcycle racing

See also Category:Motorsport.

title: Category:Auto racing


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Peter Strasser

Peter Strasser (1 April 1876 – 5 August 1918) was chief commander of German Imperial Navy Zeppelins during World War I, the main force operating bombing campaigns from 1915 to 1917. He was killed when flying the German Empire's last airship raid over the United Kingdom.

Early career
Strasser was born in Hanover, Germany, on 1 April 1876. At the age of 15, he joined the German Imperial Navy (Kaiserliche Marine). After serving on board SMS Stein and SMS Moltke, he entered the Naval academy in Kiel. He quickly rose through the ranks and was promoted to Lieutenant in 1895. He served on board SMS Mars, SMS Blücher, SMS Panther, SMS Mecklenburg and SMS Westfalen from 1897 to 1902. He was an excellent gunnery officer and was placed in the German Imperial Naval Office (Reichsmarine-Amt) in charge of German shipboard and coastal artillery. In September 1913, he took command of the Naval Airship Division (Marine-Luftschiff-Abteilung). Airships were as yet an unproven technology and Korvettenkapitän Strasser became the new naval airship chief after his predecessor, Korvettenkapitän Friedrich Metzing, drowned in the crash of the very first naval airship, the L 1. Also the single remaining naval airship L 2 was soon lost in another fatal accident. Strasser completed theoretical studies on airships and gained practical experience piloting the civilian airship LZ 17 Sachsen. Another airship, LZ 13 Hansa was chartered to train naval crews while new ships were being built. At the start of the war Navy had only one airship operational, the LZ 24 (Navy designation L 3). L 3, under Strasser's personal command, was the only one to participate in the Imperial Navy manoeuvres just before the war.

First World War
Following the outbreak of World War I in August 1914, Navy airships were initially confined to anti-submarine, anti-mine and scouting missions. They served in the Battle of Heligoland Bight.

However, on 19–20 January 1915, L3 and L4 participated in the first bombing raids over England, attacking Great Yarmouth, Sheringham and King's Lynn. Over the next 3 years, bombing campaigns would be launched primarily against Britain, but also on Paris and other cities and ports. Strasser would participate in the England raids at least once a month. He decided to test the newly developed spy basket himself, and almost fell out when it became entangled with the Zeppelin's aerial. Initially, bombing was limited to military targets but with great lobbying support of Konteradmiral Paul Behncke, the Kaiser approved attacks against civilian targets. Official British estimates list 498 civilians and 58 soldiers killed by air attack in Britain between 1915 and 1918. 1,913 injuries are recorded. The Imperial Navy dropped 360,000 kg of bombs, the majority on the British Isles. 307,315 kg were directed at enemy vessels, ports and towns; 58,000 kg were dropped over Italy, the Baltic and the Mediterranean. German army airships carried 160,000 kg of bombs to their designated targets: 44,000 kg hit Belgium and France, 36,000 kg England, and 80,000 kg Russia and south eastern Europe. However, questions remain over whether airships (and more importantly, their irreplaceable crews) would have been better used as a purely naval weapon.

Vizeadmiral Reinhard Scheer became Strasser's superior in January 1916, and tried unsuccessfully to tame Strasser's aggressive pursuit of independence. On 28 November, 1916, Strasser was appointed by imperial decree as "Leader of Airships" (Führer der Luftschiffe; F.d.L.).

Death in the last raid over Great Britain
Strasser did not live to see the end of the war. On 5 August 1918, during a night raid against Boston, Norwich, and the Humber Estuary, Strasser's L 70 met a British reconnaissance D.H.4. Pilot Major Egbert Cadbury and Gunner Major Robert Leckie shot down the L 70 just north of Wells-next-the-Sea on the Norfolk coast. None of the 23 men aboard survived. It proved to be the last airship raid over Great Britain.

Legacy
Strasser's impact on both the war and history was important for the future of air warfare. He was instrumental in the development of long range bombing and the development of the rigid airship as an efficient, high altitude, all-weather aircraft. He was a major proponent of the doctrine of bombing attacks on civilian as well as military targets, to serve both as propaganda and as a means of diverting resources from the front line.

"We who strike the enemy where his heart beats have been slandered as 'baby killers' ... Nowadays, there is no such animal as a noncombatant. Modern warfare is total warfare."

- Peter Strasser

Awards

 * Iron Cross of 1914, 1st and 2nd class
 * Pour le Mérite (20 August 1917)
 * Hanseatic Cross of Hamburg
 * Knight's Cross of the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern
 * Order of the Red Eagle, 4th class
 * Lifesaving Medal on Band

title: Peter Strasser


text:
Talk:Mačva District

Note: ''All official material made by Government of Serbia is public by law. Information was taken from official website.

title: Talk:Mačva District


text: Category:Snooker players

title: Category:Snooker players


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Category:NASCAR

This category contains articles that are related to the stock car racing sanctioning body NASCAR.

title: Category:NASCAR


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Kolubara District

The Kolubara District (Колубарски округ / Kolubarski okrug, ) is one of eight administrative districts of Šumadija and Western Serbia. It occupies the central part of western Serbia. According to the 2011 census results, it has a population of 174,513 inhabitants. The administrative center of the Kolubara District is Valjevo, on the banks of the Kolubara River.

Municipalities
The district encompasses the municipalities of:
 * Osečina
 * Ub
 * Lajkovac
 * Valjevo
 * Mionica
 * Ljig

Demographics
According to the last official census done in 2011, the Kolubara District has 174,513 inhabitants. Ethnic composition of the district:

Culture
This region is distinguished for its cultural-historic monuments: the Muselim's Palace, a typical example of the Turkish architecture built in the thirteenth century, the Tower of the Nenadovic Family, built in 1813 by Duke Janko, the church of Valjevo originating from 1838 which is a rare example of monumental classicistic style building in Serbia.

Tourism
The major tourism resorts in the district are: the Divčibare and the Vrujci Spa.

title: Kolubara District


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Joshua Jebb

Sir Joshua Jebb, (8 May 1793 – 26 June 1863) was a British officer of the Royal Engineers who participated in the Battle of Plattsburgh on Lake Champlain during the War of 1812, He became Surveyor-General of convict prisons. By 1850, Pentonville Prison which he had designed had become a template for prison construction across the British Empire. Michael Ignatieff described Pentonville as "the culmination of a history of efforts to devise a perfectly rational and reformative mode of imprisonment".

Jebb was also involved in designing Woking Convict Invalid Prison, Broadmoor Hospital, a secure mental hospital in Crowthorne in Berkshire, and Mountjoy Prison in the centre of Dublin.

Early life
He was born at Chesterfield on 8 May 1793, the eldest son of Joshua Jebb of Walton Hall, Derbyshire and his wife Dorothy, daughter of General Henry Gladwin of Stubbing Court. His father, a grand-nephew of Samuel Jebb and John Jebb (Dean of Cashel), belonged to a family who produced a number of distinguished descendants, and had once had property in England and the West Indies, but he largely lost his wealth. His sister Frances married William Miles (1797–1844), a shipowner and West India merchant, and bought the estate of Firbeck Hall which was later inherited by his descendants.

After passing through the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, Jebb was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Royal Engineers on 1 July 1812. He was promoted to first lieutenant on 21 July 1813, and embarked for Canada in the following October.

Jebb served with the army under the command of General Francis de Rottenburg on the frontier of Lower Canada until the summer of 1814, when he joined the army of Lieutenant-general Sir George Prevost in the United States, and took part in the campaign of the autumn of 1814. He was present at the Battle of Plattsburgh, 11 September 1814, and was thanked in general orders. In 1816, Jebb completed a survey for a canal which was designed to allow access to the Canadian heartland. His route, however, was not followed by Colonel By in building the Rideau Canal; he had chosen a way between Ottawa River and Kingston where Lake Ontario flows into Saint Lawrence River.

Jebb returned to England in 1820, after an extended service in Canada. He was stationed at Woolwich and afterwards at Hull until December 1827, when he embarked for the West Indies. He was promoted second captain on 26 February 1828, and was invalided home in September 1829. Having recovered his health he was sent to Chatham. Jebb was appointed adjutant of the royal sappers and miners at Chatham on 11 February 1831, and promoted first captain on 10 January 1837.

On 10 March 1838 Jebb was appointed by the Lord President of the council to hold inquiries on the grants of charters of incorporation to Bolton and Sheffield, and on 21 May of the same year he was made a member of the commission on the municipal boundary of Birmingham. On 23 November 1841 he received a brevet majority for his past services.

Prisons
Jebb was appointed Surveyor-General of prisons, a technical adviser to the Home Office, and was employed in designing county and borough prisons. He associated with the inspectors William Crawford (1788–1847) and the Rev. William Whitworth Russell, in the design and construction of the "Model Prison" at Pentonville. Jebb continued in his military duties, and was quartered at Birmingham until he was seconded on 20 September 1839. The penal system was then in transition. In 1837 inquiries conducted in America by Crawford had led to the adoption in principle of the "separate system" of prison discipline. The decline of penal transportation meant the Government was turning to an alternative method of punishing criminals.

Beginning with a period of strict separation at Pentonville, the convicts were then to be passed to a prison constructed with a view to their employment on public works. For this purpose Jebb designed the prison at Portland. Similar prisons were subsequently erected at Dartmoor, Chatham, Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight. In 1843–4 Jebb erected a terrace of houses, part of Parkhurst Prison on the Isle of Wight: Nicholson Street, now listed buildings. On 29 June 1843 he was made a commissioner for the government of Pentonville Prison.

In 1844, Jebb was appointed a member of a royal commission to report on the punishment of military crime by imprisonment. The commission recommended the establishment of prisons for the exclusive reception of military prisoners, and under the supervision of an officer to be termed inspector-general of military prisons, who should also supervise provost and regimental cells. Jebb was appointed to this office on 27 December 1844 in addition to his other duties. Subsequently it was held by the officer at the head of civil prisons, at this period a post held by an officer of the Royal Engineers.

Jebb was promoted lieutenant-colonel on 16 April 1847. On 1 May 1849 his appointment as commissioner of Pentonville prison was renewed. In 1850, a board, called the Directors of Convict Prisons, was formed to replace the various bodies which had previously managed the different convict prisons. Jebb was appointed chairman of the board, and under his direction the new system was adopted and developed.

Later life
Jebb retired from the army, leaving military service on full pay retirement on 1 January 1850; his successor as Survey General of Prisons was Major Edmund Henderson. He subsequently received the honorary rank of colonel on 28 November 1854. He was made a KCB for his civil services on 25 March 1859. In 1861 and 1862 he served on commissions appointed to consider the construction of embankments of the River Thames, and of communications between the embankment at Blackfriars Bridge and the Mansion House, and between Westminster Bridge and Millbank.

Jebb died suddenly on 26 June 1863 in Charing Cross, London, coming off the omnibus from Parson's Green, where he resided, and was buried in Brookwood Cemetery.

Major works
Jebb's works included:

 * A Practical Treatise on Strengthening and Defending Outposts, Villages, Houses, Bridges, Chatham, 1836.
 * Modern Prisons : their Construction and Ventilation, with plates, London, 1844.
 * Notes on the Theory and Practice of Sinking Artesian Wells, 1844.
 * Manual for the Militia, or Fighting made Easy : a Practical Treatise on Strengthening and Defending Military Posts in reference to the Duties of a Force engaged in Disputing the Advance of an Enemy, London, 1853.
 * A Flying Shot at Fergusson and his "Perils of Portsmouth," "Invasion of England", pamphlet, London, 1853.
 * A practical treatise on the Duties to be performed ... at a siege, 3rd Edition, London, William Clowes and Son, 1860, London
 * Observations on the Defence of London, with Suggestions respecting the necessary Works, London, 1860.
 * Reports and Observations on the Discipline and Management of Convict Prisons, edited by the Earl of Chichester, London, 1863.

Family
Jebb married twice; firstly, on 14 June 1830 Mary Legh Thomas, daughter of William Burtinshaw Thomas, of Highfield, Derbyshire, who died in 1850. They had a son and three daughters. The children were:

 * Captain Joshua Gladwyn Jebb of Barnby Moor House, born 1839. He was father of Captain Sydney Gladwyn Jebb JP, of Firbeck Hall, and grandfather of Gladwyn Jebb of the United Nations.
 * Mary Dorothy, married 1854 the cleric Henry Ellison.
 * Emily Sarah, married 1860 Basil Charles Boothby of the 95th Regiment.
 * Frances Beatrice, married the cleric William Edmund Batty, and was mother of De Witt Batty.

Jebb married, secondly on 5 September 1854, Lady Amelia Rose Pelham, daughter of Thomas Pelham, the Earl of Chichester, who survived him.

title: Joshua Jebb


text: Template:Emergence of the NHL

title: Template:Emergence of the NHL


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Oecophoridae

Oecophoridae (concealer moths) is a family of small moths in the superfamily Gelechioidea. The phylogeny and systematics of gelechoid moths are still not fully resolved, and the circumscription of the Oecophoridae is strongly affected by this.

Taxonomy and systematics

 * Pleurotinae Toll, 1956
 * Deuterogoniinae Spuler, 1910
 * Unplaced
 * Colchia Lvovsky, 1995

Also possibly included is the Peruvian species Auxotricha ochrogypsa, described by Edward Meyrick in 1931 as the sole member of its genus. In the past, the family was circumscribed more widely and included the following subfamilies:
 * Amphisbatinae (sometimes in Depressariinae)
 * Autostichinae
 * Depressariinae (including Cryptolechiinae)
 * Hypertrophinae
 * Metachandinae
 * Oecophorinae (including Chimabachinae, Deuterogoniinae, Peleopodinae, Philobotinae)
 * Stathmopodinae
 * Stenomatinae

Some treatments include only the Oecophorinae and Stathmopodinae here, placing the others elsewhere in the Gelechoidea (typically in the Elachistidae, but occasionally as independent families). But this approach might make Elachistidae highly paraphyletic. Other authors go as far as to expand the Oecophoridae beyond the delimitation used here, including also such groups as the Ethmiidae and Xyloryctidae. The latter may indeed be part of a monophyletic Oecophoridae, but more research is required; the Ethmiidae on the other hand are more likely a distinct family. The mysterious genus Aeolanthes is also sometimes included in the Oecophoridae (as a monotypic subfamily Aeolanthinae), but its actual relationships are quite obscure.

Some additional genera are also treated as Oecophoridae incertae sedis in recent studies:
 * Amseloecia Povolný, 1983
 * Callimodes Leraut, 1989 (Oecophorinae?)
 * subgenus Orienta Lvovsky, 1995
 * Colchia Lvovsky, 1995
 * Luquetia Leraut, 1991 (Depressariinae?)

 * Minetia Leraut, 1991 (Oecophorinae?)
 * Odonna Clarke, 1982
 * Schiffermuellerina Leraut, 1989 (Oecophorinae?)
 * Schiffermuellerina grandis (Desvignes, 1842)
 * Zizyphia Chrétien, 1908 (Oecophorinae? Formerly in Gelechiidae)
 * †Epiborkhausenites Skalski, 1973 (Bartonian age, Baltic amber, Lithuania)

Relationship with humans
Many concealer moths feed on dead plant material and are nutrient recyclers. On the other hand, the family includes the white-shouldered house moth (Endrosis sarcitrella), which is a widely distributed moth that has caterpillars that infest stored grain, and the brown house moth (Hofmannophila pseudospretella), which feeds on textiles and carpets as well as stored foodstuffs.

Concealer moths have also been put to useful service. Agonopterix ulicetella, a native of Europe, has been introduced to New Zealand and Hawaii in an attempt to control the European gorse (Ulex europaeus), and the defoliating hemlock moth (Agonopterix alstroemeriana) has been used against Conium maculatum poison hemlock in the United States.

title: Oecophoridae


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Podunavlje District

The Podunavlje District (Подунавски округ, ) is one of nine administrative districts of Southern and Eastern Serbia. The district's name refers to its location by—specifically, to the south of—the Danube river. It expands across the central parts of Serbia. According to the 2011 census results, it has a population of 199,395 inhabitants. The administrative center is the city of Smederevo.

Cities and municipalities
It encompasses the municipalities of:
 * Smederevo
 * Smederevska Palanka
 * Velika Plana

Demographics
According to the last official census done in 2011, the Podunavlje District has 199,395 inhabitants. 52.09% of the population lives in the urban areas.

Ethnic groups
Ethnic composition of the district:

History and culture
Smederevo was the capital of the Serb State in the fourteenth century - there stood the royal palace at the time of the then Serbian ruler Đurađ Branković. Today, in the remnants of the Smederevo fortress, finished in 1430, traces of the former palace, chapel, and the house of the royal family can be discerned. At the old city cemetery stands a church from the fourteenth century, assumed to have been the family vault of the Serb ruler Đurađ Branković, which gave rise to numerous legends.

This area is also well known as the place of the Karađorđe's assassination after The First Serbian Uprising around the Pokajnica monastery near Velika Plana.

Settlements
This is a list of the settlements in the Podunavlje District:

 * Azanja
 * Badljevica
 * Baničina
 * Bačinac
 * Bašin
 * Binovac
 * Cerovac
 * Dobri Do
 * Drugovac
 * Glibovac
 * Golobok
 * Grčac
 * Kolari
 * Krnjevo
 * Kulič
 * Kusadak
 * Landol
 * Lipe
 * Lozovik
 * Lugavčina
 * Mala Krsna
 * Mala Plana
 * Malo Orašje
 * Markovac
 * Mihajlovac
 * Miloševac
 * Mramorac
 * Novo Selo
 * Orešac
 * Osipaonica
 * Petrijevo
 * Pridvorice
 * Radinac
 * Rakinac
 * Ralja
 * Ratari
 * Saraorci
 * Selevac
 * Seone
 * Skobalj
 * Smederevo
 * Smederevska Palanka
 * Staro selo
 * Stojačak
 * Suvodol
 * Udovice
 * Veliko Orašje
 * Velika Plana
 * Vlaški Do
 * Vodanj
 * Vodice
 * Vranovo
 * Vrbovac
 * Vučak
 * Šalinac

title: Podunavlje District


text:
The Religion of China

The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism is a book written by Max Weber, a German economist and sociologist. It was first published in German under the title Konfuzianismus und Taoismus in 1915 and an adapted version appeared in 1920. An English translation was published in 1951 and several editions have been released since.

It was his second major work on the sociology of religion, after The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. Weber focused on those aspects of Chinese society that were different from those of Europe and Puritanism, and posed a question why capitalism did not develop in China. From the chronological perspective, he concentrated on early period of Chinese history (Hundred Schools of Thought, Warring States period), during which major Chinese schools of thoughts (Confucianism, Taoism) were invented. In that period, he focused on the issues of Chinese urban development, Chinese patrimonialism and officialdom, and Chinese religion, as the areas in which Chinese development differed most distinctively from the European route.

Weber's choice of topics and analysis inspired further attention and critique. The sociologist of Chinese religion C.K. Yang, for instance, wrote that Weber's interpretation is "largely the result of viewing the religious situation in Chinese culture from the view of the Christian world, where religion has a formal organizational system and has occupied a prominent structural position in the organizational scheme of Western society."

Historical background
Weber based much of his analysis on the early period of Chinese history. By 200 B.C., the Chinese state had emerged from a loose federation of feudal states of the Warring States period to the unified empire with patrimonal rule. Confucianism emerged to dominate the other schools that had developed in the fertile social upheavals of pre-imperial China such as Daoism (Taoism), Mohism, and Legalism, all of which had criticised Confucianism (c. 400 – c. 200 B.C.). One of Confucius's disciples, Mencius, (c. 372 – c. 289 B.C.) developed a more idealistic version of Confucianism, while Xunzi (Hsün Tzu, c. 313 – c. 238 B.C.) argued that all inclinations are shaped by acquired language and other social forms.

Confucianism rose to the position of an official orthodoxy during the Han dynasty (206 B.C. – A.D. 220).

When the Han disintegrated, Confucianism fell with it and lay dormant for almost 400 years (A.D. 220–618) as Chinese Buddhism and Taoism offered new visions. China was again unified, by the Sui dynasty (581-618) and by the Tang dynasty (618–906). During the Song (Sung) dynasty (960–1279), - interpreting classical Confucian doctrine in a way that addressed Buddhist and Daoist issues. In the Ming dynasty (1368–1644), Wang Yangming claimed that the mind projects li (principle) onto things rather than just noticing external li. In the early 20th-century Chinese intellectuals blamed Confucianism for the scientific and political backwardness of China  after the disastrous conflicts with Western military technology at the dawn of the modern era.

Cities
Similar to Europe, Chinese cities were founded as forts or leader's residences and were the centers of trade and crafts. However, they never received political autonomy and in fact sometimes had fewer rights than villages. Likewise, its citizens had no special political rights or privileges; the resident of Chinese cities never constituted a separate status class like the residents of European cities.

The lack of city development is partially due to strengths of kinship ties, which stems from religious beliefs (in ancestral spirits) and maintaining strong ties to the villages in which one's ancestors lived. The guilds likewise competed against each other for the favour of the Emperor, never uniting in order to fight for more rights.

Patrimonialism, officialdom and literati
Unlike eternally divided Europe, China saw early unification and establishment of imperial government with a centralized officialdom. Relatively peaceful centuries in the first centuries of Chinese history meant that military never gained significant authority when the power structure was being formed. This meant that the focus of struggle for political power turned from the distribution of land to the distribution of offices, which with their fees and taxes were the most prominent source of income for the holder. The state depended on the services of those freely removable and non-hereditary officials, rather than on the service of military (knights), like in Europe. The officialdom nonetheless had significant powers, and its vested interests were in preserving the status quo, opposing any reforms or changes, particularly on a governmental level.

For the members of the officialdom, it was their rank, or status, which was of prime importance. The 'superior' man (literati) should stay away from the pursuit of wealth (though not from the wealth itself). Therefore, becoming a civil servant was preferred to becoming a businessman and granted a much higher status class. Literati did not care about the wealth, although they could and did care about their status. As Weber wrote:

...the "superior" man coveted... a position, not a profit.

Religious organization and the Confucian orthodoxy
Chinese civilization had no religious prophecy nor a powerful priesthood social class. The emperor was the high priest of the state religion and the supreme ruler. Weber emphasized that Confucianism tolerated the simultaneous existence of many popular cults and made no effort to organize them as part of a religious doctrine, while nonetheless curtailing the political ambitions of their priests. Instead it taught adjustment to the world.

This forms a sharp contrast with medieval Europe, where the Church was often able to superimpose its will over those of secular rulers, and where the same, singular religion was the religion of rulers, nobility and the common folk.

State cult and popular religiosity
According to Confucianism, the worship of great deities was the affair of the state, ancestral worship is required of all, and a multitude of popular cults are tolerable. Confucianism tolerated magic and mysticism as long as they were useful tools for controlling the masses; it denounced them as heresy and suppressed them when they threatened the established order (hence the opposition to Buddhism). Another notable quality was the avoidance of both irrational ecstasy and excitement, as well as mystic contemplation and metaphysical speculation.

Note that in this context Confucianism can be referred to as the state cult, and Taoism as the popular religion.

Social structure and the capitalist economy
Weber argued that, while several factors were good for development of a capitalist economy (long periods of peace, improved control of rivers, population growth, freedom to acquire land and move outside of native community, freedom of choosing the occupation), they were outweighed by others (mostly stemming from religion) in China:
 * technical inventions were opposed on the basis of religion (disturbance of ancestral spirits leading to bad luck), instead of changing the world, adjusting oneself to it was preferred
 * sale of land was often prohibited or made very difficult
 * extended kinship groups (based on religion stressing the importance of family ties and ancestry) protected its members against economic adversities, therefore negatively affecting one's motivation for payment of debts and work discipline
 * those kinship prevented the development of urban status class, hindered legal developments like creation of legal institutions, codification of laws and a jurist status class.

Confucianism and Puritanism
According to Weber, Confucianism and Puritanism are mutually exclusive types of rational thought, each attempting to prescribe a way of life based on religious dogma. Notably, they both valued self-control and restraint, and did not oppose accumulation of wealth.

However, to both those qualities where just means to the final goal, and here they were divided by a key difference. The Confucianism goal was "a cultured status position", while Puritanism's goal was to create individuals who are "tools of God". The intensity of belief and enthusiasm for action were rare in Confucianism, but common in Protestantism. Actively working for wealth was unbecoming a proper Confucian. Therefore, Weber states that it was this difference in social attitudes and mentality, shaped by the respective, dominant religions, that contributed to the development of capitalism in the West and the absence of it in China.

Influence and evaluations
The sociologist Andreas Buss wrote in 1985 that many Western scholars felt the so-called "Weber-thesis" belonged to a "bygone era" yet it continued to inspire discussion and reference. He cautioned that English language scholars would find it difficult to read Weber. One problem is that Weber did not intend the essays on China and India to be read separately or as definitive treatments. His purpose was to sketch selected elements in Indian or Chinese culture to contrast with and test his essay "The Protestant Ethic and the Rise of Capitalism." The essay on Confucianism and Taoism was published in English under the "misleading" title, The Religion of China, a title which does "not at all reflect Weber’s intentions". In addition, Buss continued, the translations are of "poor quality", even a "disgrace", and add to the misunderstanding that Weber over-generalized.

References and further reading

 * Yang, C.K., "Introduction," to Max Weber, translated by Hans H. Gerth, The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism (New York: Macmillan, 1951).
 * Yang, C.K., "Introduction," to Max Weber, translated by Hans H. Gerth, The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism (New York: Macmillan, 1951).
 * Yang, C.K., "Introduction," to Max Weber, translated by Hans H. Gerth, The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism (New York: Macmillan, 1951).
 * Yang, C.K., "Introduction," to Max Weber, translated by Hans H. Gerth, The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism (New York: Macmillan, 1951).
 * Yang, C.K., "Introduction," to Max Weber, translated by Hans H. Gerth, The Religion of China: Confucianism and Taoism (New York: Macmillan, 1951).

title: The Religion of China


text: Talk:Podunavlje District

title: Talk:Podunavlje District


text:
Skeleton Army

The Skeleton Army was a diffuse group from Weston-super-Mare, active particularly in Southern England, that opposed and disrupted The Salvation Army's marches against alcohol in the late 19th century and best known for an attack in Bethnal Green in London. Clashes between the two groups led to the deaths of several Salvationists and injuries to many others.

Origins
The earliest reference to an organised opposition to The Salvation Army was in August 1880 in Whitechapel, when The Unconverted Salvation Army was founded with its flag and motto of "Be just and fear not".

In 1881, Skeleton Armies were raised in Whitechapel, Exeter and Weston-super-Mare, and the name was quickly taken up elsewhere as other groups were formed in the south of England; there are no records of Skeleton Armies north of London. Membership was predominantly lower to middle working-class.

In 'Blood on the Flag', Major Nigel Bovey identifies 21 towns and cities that are north of London -- three in Scotland -- in which the Skeleton Army opposed The Salvation Army.

The "Skeletons" recognised each other by various insignia used to distinguish themselves. Skeletons used banners with skulls and crossbones; sometimes there were two coffins and a statement like, "Blood and Thunder" (mocking the Salvation Army's war cry "Blood and Fire") or the three Bs: "Beef", "Beer" and "Bacca" – again mocking the Salvation Army's three S's – "Soup", "Soap" and "Salvation". Banners also had pictures of monkeys, rats and the devil. Skeletons further published so-called "gazettes" considered libellous as well as obscene and blasphemous.

Several techniques were employed by the "Skeletons" to disrupt Salvation Army meetings and marches; these included throwing rocks and dead rats, marching while loudly playing musical instruments or shouting, and physically assaulting Salvation Army members at their meetings.

Confrontation
Although George Scott Railton, second in command of the Salvation Army, claimed the Skeleton Army first started in Weston-super-Mare in 1881, contemporary press reports show that it first appeared in Exeter in October 1881. In Weston-super-Mare, in March 1882 Captain William Beatty, Thomas Bowden and William Mullins were given a three-month prison sentence by the magistrates for a breach of the peace when they broke a local ban on processions.

This led to the case of Beatty v Gillbanks (1882), which held that the Salvation Army was acting lawfully when marching, despite knowing that their assembly could well lead to riots. As their intentions were ultimately peaceful and unrelated to the cause of inciting riot, the court found their actions to be within the limits of the law. That it was known that their marching may cause riots was not found to be a breach of the law, as it was the actions of antagonistic parties including the Skeleton Army which led directly to the riotous behaviour. The convictions against Beatty and the two other Salvationists were later quashed by the High Court and costs were awarded against the sentencing magistrates. The action was reported by The Times; at the appeal hearing it was erroneously stated that the Skeleton Army was founded in Weston-super-Mare.

Of an attack in Bethnal Green in November 1882 the Bethnal Green Eastern Post stated:

"A genuine rabble of 'roughs' pure and unadulterated has been infesting the district for several weeks past. These vagabonds style themselves the 'Skeleton Army'.... The 'skeletons' have their collectors and their collecting sheets and one of them was thrust into my hands... it contained a number shopkeepers' names... I found that publicans, beer sellers and butchers are subscribing to this imposture... the collector told me that the object of the Skeleton Army was to put down the Salvationists by following them about everywhere, by beating a drum and burlesquing their songs, to render the conduct of their processions and services impossible... Amongst the Skeleton rabble there is a large percentage of the most consummate loafers and unmitigated blackguards London can produce...worthy of the disreputable class of publicans who hate the London School Board, education and temperance and who, seeing the beginning of the end of their immoral traffic, and prepared for the most desperate enterprise."

Both sources agree Salvationists were pelted with missiles. At Bethnal Green, such items as flour, rotten eggs, stones and brickbats were among those used, and many Salvationists were manhandled and beaten. When news of trouble in London spread, Skeleton riots took place in other parts of Britain.

For example, when in April 1884 the owner of an alcohol shop in Worthing objected to Salvation Army criticism concerning the selling of alcoholic beverages, 4,000 "Skeletons" joined in that town in direct opposition to the Salvationists. Black, sticky tar was painted onto the wall of the alley which the entrance to the Salvation Army barracks shared with the alcohol shop. This damaged Salvation Army uniforms as they marched through it. Also eggs filled with blue paint were thrown at the "Sally Army". Many in Worthing approved of these confrontational activities, but the Salvation Army continued unabated.

Captain Ada Smith led those who faced the "Skeletons" in Worthing. General Booth requested police protection for the Salvation Army in that town and ordered Captain Smith and her soldiers to remain in their barracks until they got it. However, the Home Secretary, Sir William Harcourt, said it was outside his jurisdiction to offer such protection. Finally General Booth ordered Captain Smith and her group to march on Sundays unprotected by the authorities.

On Sunday, 17 August 1884, the police, the Salvation Army and the Skeletons confronted each other in Worthing. For an hour the police kept the peace, then the Skeletons rioted. The area was filled with screaming men, brick dust and broken glass. The Salvationists returned to their "barracks" and the Skeletons tried to burn it down. The landlord of the barracks, George Head, a Salvation Army supporter, defended his property and the people there with a revolver, wounding several Skeletons. Head was later brought before the magistrates on a charge of feloniously and maliciously wounding a young man named Olliver.

The Metropolitan Police were at first unhelpful. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Edmund Henderson denied what happened. The public eventually demanded action and Skeleton riots in London were belatedly put down.

Final stages
Skeleton riots continued elsewhere until 1893 when they faded out. In 1889, at least 669 Salvation Army members were assaulted, including 251 women. On one occasion, while defending themselves, 86 Salvation Army members were arrested and imprisoned on disorderly conduct charges. When a new Salvation Army Corps was opened in Potton in Bedfordshire on 1 June 1890, large contingents of the Skeleton Army made fun of the local Salvationists. The War Cry reported:

"... the skeletons did all the shouting and we had only the opportunity of blessing them by showing unruffled love in answer to the disturbance in our proceedings'....'The skeleton flag was out with its coffin, skull and cross-bones as well as the whole Skeleton force, uniformed, beating a drum, playing flutes, whirling rattles and screaming through trumpets. One of their chosen leaders was carried shoulder high, ringing a bell and attired in an untrimmed coal-scuttle bonnet. I noticed that the publicans looked pleased to see this array and several waved their hats. But we were good friends of the skeletons, twelve of whom sat at our tea table... Their leaders were very courteous and sincerely desirous of keeping their somewhat rabble followers within bounds. Almost implicit obedience was given them. Their skeleton War Cry was freely sold, but doesn't quite beat the original."

In 'Blood on the Flag', Major Nigel Bovey states that there is no contemporary evidence for a Salvationist being killed directly by a member of the Skeleton Army. He records that Captain Sarah Jane Broadhurst was hit during an attack by the Skeletons in Shoreham on Sunday 12 October 1884. The captain died on 6 February 1892, some eight years later.

The mayor of Eastbourne stated he would, "put down this Salvation Army business" with help from the Skeleton Army if necessary. Skeletons attacked many Salvationists. Salvationists considered it incompatible with Christian principles to defend themselves but thought the police should protect them.

Skeleton to Salvationist
Charles Jeffries was a 'lieutenant' in the Skeleton Army in Whitechapel in 1881, and was well known for disrupting Salvation Army public meetings and on occasion had assaulted Salvation Army Soldiers and Officers. Then Jeffries was proselytised and started to attend a Salvation Army corps, soon becoming an active Soldier, and then after attending training college, became an Officer. He served in many countries including China and Australia and eventually rose to the rank of Commissioner, serving as the head of corps work as British Commissioner in the 1930s. A two-person off-Broadway musical created by Neil Leduke was written in 2019 by John Copeland and Len Ballantine about Charles Jeffries' dramatic transformation.

title: Skeleton Army


text:
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title: User:Kevin Saff/monobook.css


text:
Talk:Footjob

Photo

 * I just removed the photo, does Wikipedia need a picture of this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.214.70 (talk) 14:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If it's free (it is), relevant (it is) and demonstrates something visually (it does), why not use it? GRAPPLE   X  14:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the current picture should be deleted. The description of the technique is enough for us who were just planning on reading the article and not see it too. If the community is inistent, I suggest using the picture in the Spanish version, which has less view. --The Editors United (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * To be frank, the article is about a sexual act and a depiction which clearly shows it is to be expected. Opposition based on the fact that it's graphic is a wilful overlooking of WP:NOTCENSORED, as such an image adds a level of understanding to an article, and being free, offers no reason not to use it. If I read the article on Forth Bridge, I'd expect a picture of the bridge, even if words alone could convey everything in the image. This isn't a graphic image being sprung on people who are unsuspecting of such a thing, it's a fitting image used in exactly the context that should be expected. GRAPPLE   X  18:39, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess so. But I took the liberty to change it to one I thought was more 'scientific'. --The Editors United (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough (I can't see the difference really) but I restored the alt text you had removed; per MOS:ACCESS it's a good idea to keep alt text attached to images so that the visually impaired can still understand them through screenreaders. GRAPPLE   X  18:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I also didn't see much difference, and found the other picture to be more aesthetically interesting (but I recognize that that's a personal preference). I still don't feel that the picture of the "reverse footjob" is as wholly representative of footjob techniques. It IS a footjob, to be sure, but I believe that the picture I have replaced it with is a better representation, as it shows not only the soles of the feet and underside of the toes, but the top side of one of the feet and toes. I feel that this picture is a more "scientific" representation of footjobs as a whole, given its relative nature to foot fetishism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dangerdiabolik70 (talk
 * Hm. It's more 'scientific' that than the first one you post, but equally as the 'reverse footjob'. I however do say we need one of the female or say one with high heels, sandals etc. Otherwise not any of the ones in the Gallery. --The Editors United (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh come ON 95.235.224.108 (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

•Reverted main photo to previous photo as the newer one was out of focus. Also, as previously discussed by user Dangerdiabolik70, the previous photo is arguably a better representation of footjobs (see his description above). Additionally, deleted the second, unnecessary photo. Mojojojojojo (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The following has been merged from previously separate sections to keep this discussion in one place.

Images
I have reverted two edits removing images without explanation. Please explain why you oppose including these images. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:56, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * is the editor who removed the images. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I want these photos to be removed permanently. I do not care if Wikipedia is an uncensored website. It is still disgustingly inappropriate and should be properly dealt with. I do not see why this matters so much to all of you. Please, remove them. ElliotNettles (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2015 (UTC)ElliotNettles
 * Your personal disgust is not relevant to determining content. I assume you've read the note I placed on your talk page. --Neil N  talk to me 19:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I am disgusted by the fact that these photos have still not been removed. You are very persistent, Neil. It is not an admirable trait. ElliotNettles (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)ElliotNettles
 * The images appropriate for an article on this subject, your disgust with human sexuality is your problem. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 07:10, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Petition to remove the footjob photographs
Hello. As some of you may know I have been trying to rid the footjob page of their inappropriate photos. While I realize this does not go against the guidelines of Wikipedia I still think it would be appropriate to have them removed for several reasons. One of these reasons being that children under a legal age have access to viewing these pornographic images. You cannot simply restrict them from accessing the sexuality articles, but you could at least help the issue by removing these photos. Distributing pornography to kids under the age of 18 is illegal, is it not? These are obvious exposed photos of male genitalia. While photos may help with gaining knowledge on the subject they should at least be replaced with something a bit more minor such as drawings. This would not only benefit the adolescents, but would also help cease the constant removal and reversing of these images. I, myself, am 16. I had no desire to gain knowledge of this subject with pornographic imagery. I find these photos to be distasteful for several logical reasons. And I am sure it could be a traumatizing experience for a far younger child to stumble across them. I would like my words to be heeded and taken into serious consideration. ElliotNettles (talk) 14:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)ElliotNettles
 * Oppose but willing to reconsider if a specific high quality freely licensed drawing is brought forward as an alternative. Wikipedia is not censored. If you object to the photos,, simply do not read the article. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  15:23, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. These images are appropriate for this subject, and in keeping with Wikipedia's guidelines. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 15:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose ElliotNettles' reasons do not come from Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and these pictures are not deemed pornographic by legal standards, --Neil N  talk to me</i> 21:00, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

To be completely fair Neil, that is a photograph that displays sexual organs as well as sexual activity itself. While it is not meant to be erotic or arousing for the purpose you are using it for, it still has pornographic nature. Also, if you reverse search the photos on Google Images you will find them being connected to actual pornography websites. I can provide screenshots of this if it is needed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But as Cullen suggested he may reconsider for a high-quality illustration; I feel that would be the best alternative to this situation. ElliotNettles (talk) 23:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)ElliotNettles

Could a drawing or some digital work be used as an alternative? Fimbulvintur (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Could a drawing or some digital work be used as an alternative? Fimbulvintur (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose as wikipedia is not censored. The images pertain to the article. That children can access them is not an issue to me as they can access that in many places. Mildly condemned about what appears to be a veiled legal thread in the op's comments. The personal taste of one editor is not reason to remove these images.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please {{re}} 18:19, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I have been involved in a similar discussion for the Woman on top article in 2010, in which even an admin objected to the image, and it was concluded the photograph was not appropriate as there was no evidence the subjects consented to the image being there and the existing illustrations were adequate. User:kjkeefe pointed out that the laws of Florida, where Wikipedia's servers were based, includes US federal law under which US Code, Title 18, Section 2257, wikipedia must maintain well-documented records of each person in any pornographic media it hosts in order to ensure that the participants are of legal age and able to consent. I have also noticed consent does not seem to have been previously discussed here. There is also the possibility that a person in the photo may withdraw consent which would be a disadvantage of a photo over an illustration. In another discussion it was concluded that although some editors prefer an illustration over a photographic image it was decided to keep the photo until it can be replaced with a higher quality illustration. Tk420 (talk) 22:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Anti- foot fetish bias?
The VfD ended with a decision to redirect to Foot fetishism, and that was done. Eventually, the redirect ended up pointing to Non-penetrative sex although there doesn't seem to have been any discussion or consensual process. Whatever. What I'm addressing today is that at Non-penetrative sex the only activity in the entire list of Non-penetrative sex to not have a wikilink is footjob. That's understandable, because it would create a loop, but it's unfair. Every other sexual activity on the list (except Intergluteal sex, currently unlinked) is wikilinked and points to its own page.

To correct this perceived bias, I propose 1) immediate reersion of the redirect to Foot fetishism, as per the VfD, and either 2) try to put some real content here that is not in Foot fetishism, or 3) extract some Footjob material from Foot fetishism and use it here, with a link from Foot fetishism to here, acting as a "bridge" between Non-penetrative sex and Foot fetishism, describing a specific activity that fits into both categories.

I will wait a while before undertaking this task, in case anyone objects. -- 192.115.133.116 (talk) 22:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

 * To clarify, I was referring to steps 2 or 3 for discussion. Step 1, restoration of the original consensus, I already did.  --  192.115.133.116 (talk) 22:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Article about Footjob
This article contains the definition of "Footjob", taken from different references. Thank you very much. - Margarita1986. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Margarita1986 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The Footjob in the eroticism
The section "The Footjob in the eroticism" seems like little more than a laundry list of actresses and films featuring footjobs. I think it is time to clean this part up, but thought I would start a talk section to discuss what would be best. Thanks.-- Surv1v4l1st (Talk 17:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Stuff
Could we not have lists of random "stuff" please? Unsourced and unselected lists of DVDs which might or might show this, or actors who might have appeared in them, are not useful. At a minimum, we need a reliable source to verify the material, and some indication of why it might be notable. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 12:29, 23 January 2011 (UTC) its very funny — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.134.64.92 (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Eva Longoria
The current wording for that section makes it sound like she actually performed a footjob on Jesse Metcalfe. Shouldn't this be changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.38.143 (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Teamwork
This is my first Wikipedia page that I have significantly made better! I need a digital pat on the back. --The Editors United (talk) 00:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Non-penetrative
I am wondering why is this a non-penetrative sexual practice - couldn't it be a penetrative practice if it is performed on a woman? Would it be called differently? If so, we could give a link in an article. Anyway, I'm just raising this issue, since the first sentence suggests that there could be a penetrative counterpart to a footjob, but it is later not mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:3400:8200:39D3:7C73:549C:B68 (talk) 23:04, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Critiques if androcentric language and sexual scripts side, the reason is because nothing is being inserted into orifice.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please {{re}} 18:22, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Footjob


text:
Talk:To His Coy Mistress

Gripes
No evidence presented that within the poem the "writer" was older than the "mistress". Other comentators elsewhere regard the "writer" as a young man. So commentary here might need editting. JDN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.202.145 (talk) 12:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

To His Coy Mistress survived vfd. See: talk:To His Coy Mistress/Delete. Wile E. Heresiarch 02:15, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Alright, that's looking a whole lot better. Can't we delete that childish summary though?--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo (Talk)]] 14:24, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * Great work by everyone who's worked to rescue this from VFD-dom. A couple of comments:
 * - I removed the line numbers from the poem box. Do we need to the number the lines? If so, can we do it somehow with a bit more subtlety? (I'm not sure about the "glossary" entry at the bottom, either: was that just a leftover from the cut&paste?)
 * - "Times Winged Chariot" and "Vaster than empires, and more slow" have also been used as book (or story) titles. Could a reference be dragged in?
 * Drag away! Dpbsmith
 * - With this, and Ozymandias, and Chapman's Homer, it's about time we started a "Poems" category.
 * –Hajor 15:11, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * And Casabianca, don't forget Casabianca. :-) Dpbsmith 15:35, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Also: the final reference to "The Garden" -- is that Marvell's own "The Garden"? –Hajor 15:20, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I really like the inclusion of the whole poem, and the visual appearance is very nice. (I was afraid to suggest this for fear some official busybody would want to transwiki it to WikiQuotes or WIkiSource).

In The Lesson of the Moth, Don Marquis has the moth say

it is better to be happy for a moment and be burned up with beauty than to live a long time and be bored all the while so we wad all our life up  into one little roll and then we shoot the roll that is what life is for

I'm trying to decide whether this is arguably a reference to "Let us roll all our strength and all/Our sweetness up into one ball". Dpbsmith 15:35, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) i personally think this might be a reference to money in the usage of the word wad i may be wrong but thats the general effect i get from this poem.

Great stuff, Geogre! Thanks, oh 18th century Brit Lit person! Dpbsmith 19:03, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

SEX????
How do you think it is about sex? I have to write an analyses paper about this poem and another poem called "To the virgins, to make much of time" i think it is all too confusing for me.. Can you anyone help? e.mail me at MotaSpider@NetZero.com Thank you to anyone who e.mails me i appreciate your time.

 * We're not going to do your homework for you. Try reading the article, which explains this point clearly. Then try reading the poem, which is fairly clear, too, once you get past the dated language. If you want a real answer, try asking some specific question that shows you've actually tried to tackle your assignment. For starters, why don't you read the poem and try to "translate" it into straightforward, non-poetic, modern, colloquial English? First phrase: "If we had all the time in the world" Dpbsmith (talk) 13:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This one still needs quite a bit of work
The author of this piece makes quite a few assumptions, that really should not be included in an informational piece. In an essay on the work those would be fine, but it's best these articles stick to the facts.

One thing I find grating is the use of the term "lovers" when they are not. They are only "lovers", when the act of lovemaking has been concluded. "Lovers" implies that you have actually made love. While I can agree that different terms vary in the time frame that they are used, "lovers" still implies a relationship, wether actual intercourse has happened or not. This women wants no part of this gentleman and there is no relationship of any kind implied or stated, other than they might, and I say might, know who each other are, a little bit, maybe. You can not be said to be "lovers" with someone just because they are in love with you. Hence the "s" on the end of the word. If I am in love with Brad Pitt (then or now) that does not make us "lovers." That is taking a definition way out of control and way away from proper usage. The word should not be used here, period.

The reference to "The Garden" is a poem by Andrew Marvell which is pretty clear in the article, I don't quite understand how one could confuse the statement.

The reference to Vegetable Love has nothing whatsoever to do with where fruits come from. It is a reference to the idea that vegetables have the power to grow, but lack consciousness.

I don't see that the speaker is "arguing" with his mistress either. (Unless you mean in the alternate use of the word arguement, meaning his defense of his posistion. Even so, to avoid confusion that word should not be used here.)  He is begging his mistress to have sex with him before they grow old, lose the desire to make love and die where her honour and his desire will mean nothing and the chance to enjoy each other is past and gone. Nothing new that what some men do everyday, beg, plead and make ridiculous arguments to women about why they should give up their virginity to this specific man.

There should indeed be line numbers present. They serve several functions. The least of which include easily locating a specific line referenced in your defense of the piece without the reader having to count them all to find the line you mean. (You should always referenece the line of a poem when making an explication).

I could go on, but since a valiant effort was made, and not by myself, I will say this is a pretty good overall piece and would be great with a bit more effort.

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Boop, I appreciate all your care with this article, you've put a lot in. But I do need to say that it is contradictory of you to say that the article makes presumptions and meanwhile to claim with total authority in your comment here that "vegetable love" is "a reference to the idea that vegetables have the power to grow, but lack consciousness." "Vegetable love" is one of the most talked about and uncertain lines in all poetry, critics with degrees and decades of expertise disagree vehemently on its implications and even its basic meaning. But meh. I'm still very glad the article was cleaned up so thoroughly, and glad for your quality checking in the discussions. Thanks sir. Chicopac (talk) 17:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Coyness exemplified
I don't like this euphemism The speaker of the poem is arguing with his mistress and attempting to persuade her to make love with him. For one thing it's an americanism in an article about a British poem (so British conventions usually apply). For another thing why can't it just say ...attempting to persuade her to have sex with him. Make love is not only euphemistic it's also ambiguous, for example it states here that it can mean To engage in amorous caressing or To have sexual intercourse, British people would understand the first meaning (especially those of the older generation). The last time I checked a dictionary sex was not considered a rude word, it's used by biologists all the time. If no one objects then I'm going to change it in a week or so. Alun 18:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No objection on my part. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Centre Justified?
Why is the poem in thsi artical centre justified. The origional poem was ragged-right. Was this done intentionally to comply with some random (and wrong) style guide, or did someone just think it looked pretty? Mark 193.63.135.120

If thats whats you think, and with good reason, change it!Jnb 01:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

 * He did. Ruakh 02:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

This article needs an objective overview.
The body of this article is not objective what-so-ever. I have read many scholarly articles regarding this particular poem, and the statement that it is purely sexual is only one angle of interpretation. The article should represent all angles of interepretation. For example, please refer to Robert W Halli, Jr.'s essay, "The persuasion of the Coy Mistress". He gives reasonable evidence that the narrator's motives are purely procreational; and that his desire is not necessarily to just make love for pleasure, but to bear children. This desire is coupled with his longing to potentially marry the coy mistress. To simply cast it off as a desire to have sex would not represent this possibility. The author should revise it to meet this criteria. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.74.62.162 (talk • contribs).

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Some Disagreements
I always took "vegetable love" to mean as opposed to "animal love."

Why the the quibbling over sex as opposed to sex for procreation? It's still sex. And why the potential marriage stuff? It is irrelevant to the poem and represents a relatively new proclivity to have to sugar-coat everything involving sex. This is almost as silly as saying that the Song of Songs was really about love for God, and in that case we have records of actual arguments over whether it should be included. It's about sex. Epepke 05:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm... I thought Song of Songs was partly to do with love of God. "I am my beloved's and He is mine and His banner over me is Love" appears in several hymns.

Given the pun on 'quaint/queinte' I'd have thought the sexual meaning was fairly clear for a reader of the time! pharm (talk) 20:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"Vegetable love" has always been a hugely contentious issue in criticism. To me, though, it seems clearly to mean that he would have enough time to truly cultivate a more permanent love, which is vaster than empires but which more patiently spreads its wings and so does not collapse as quickly as empires. But that's just my two and a half cents. Chicopac (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Puritan
We have here a statement that Andrew Marvell was a Puritan. The article on him says he wasn't. Which is true?

 * It says he sympathized with Puritans, right? That seems accurate since I remember that he apparently had some sort of association with Cromwell and saved Milton from execution (or something like that.) --Gwern (contribs) 18:10 6 September 2007 (GMT)

 * I think the article on Marvell suggests that although he did defend the Puritan dissenters, he did not actually associate himself with them. —-eniarrol- 15:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not a fallacious argument
Someone snuck the claim into parenthesis that this poem, as a logical argument, is fallacious. This is wrong. It's true that the format follows an "if, but, therefore" format, but the argument is a valid form of denying the antecedent, if we're going to delve into logic. Denying the antecedent works if the "If" statement is an "if and only if" statement. Excuse this Marvell guy, this poet, for being rhetorical and not actually stating "If and only if."

Let's outline the argument, so we can see that it's an "if and only if" usage of denying the antecedent:

- If and only if we had enough time, then I would be able to love you thoroughly enough.

- We do not have enough time.

- Therefore, I am unable to love you thoroughly enough. (and we must choose the alternative of having sex immediately)

Chicopac (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No parody
The claim that the poem is a parody and Marvell would not have wanted the woman to whom the poem is addressed to have agreed to "sport us while we may" is wild speculation. There does not appear to be any internal evidence that the poem is a parody. If some reliable secondary source has found such evidence, it would be OK to cite it, but if other secondary sources contradict that position then both positions need to be noted.

One might as well write that the Constitution of the United Sates is a parody of republican government intended to show how ridiculous it would be. In any event, any presentation of the author's state of mind needs a clear citation to a letter or other document in which the author himself reports his interpretation of the poem. Furthermore, under Wikipedia's rules, such a primary source should then be interpreted by a secondary source to mean that Marvell intended the poem as a parody.

Furthermore, the synopsis asserts that the poem is an expression of an idea put forth by Horace. This assertion is an interpretation and therefore requires the citation of a secondary source. No evidence is presented that Marvell himself read Horace or had Horace in mind when he wrote "To His Coy Mistress." The connection appears to be one made by the writer of the article. Such connections are not appropriate in writing for an encyclopedia. --Rmrwiki (talk) 05:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Excision
Although the vast majority of those writing here were easily able to read the poem and understand its meaning, a small minority (possibly just one person) has somehow managed to conclude that it was intended to convey the exact opposite sentiment. The following was inserted in the Introductiom: "However, it should be remembered that Andrew Marvell was highly educated and Christian—whether Puritan or not—and is more likely mocking the concept of 'carpe diem' that other poets extolled. The poem might even be aimed specifically against Robert Herrick's To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time. It is doubtful that Marvell would be in favor of the girl, the listener, agreeing to the speaker's proposition." Other editors have attempted to solicit valid citations for such an idea, but to no avail. Agreeing with Marvell that tempus fugit, and as there is not the slightest hint of such an attitude within the verse, I have excized this notion from the text. B00P (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Synopsis
The current synopsis does not summarize the poem but instead argues that it is an illustration of a concept, "carpe diem," that is not found explicitly in the poem's text. This article is generally weak and this interpretative synopsis does not help. One might think that the poem is so clear that it needs no summary, but readers unfamiliar with poetry of this period may have some difficulty and might turn to Wikipedia for help (such as the desperate student above who couldn't figure out what the poem has to do with sex.) I propose the following simpler, more  direct summary: - The speaker of the poem addresses a woman who has been slow to respond to his sexual advances. In the first stanza he describes how he would he love her if they had an unlimited amount of time. He could spend centuries admiring each part of her body and her refusal to comply would not faze him. In the second stanza, he remembers how short human life is. Once it is over, the opportunity to enjoy each other is gone because no one embraces in the grave. In the last stanza, the speaker urges the woman to comply, arguing that in loving each other with fervor they will make the most of the short time they have to live.

If no one objects, in about a week, I'll replace the current synopsis with this. --Rmrwiki (talk) 06:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Replaced synopsis. --Rmrwiki (talk) 04:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Another allusion
"My vegetable love should grow..." is a likely source for Pound's "Go against this vegetable bondage of the blood" in his poem Commission, line 34. Is this OK for inclusion?

There's another one about a ball rolled across a table but I can't find/remember it just now - will add when it comes to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.51.142 (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)86.179.51.142 (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC) I thought that was for: Till the conversion of the Jews. My vegetable love should grow. I thought that it was a pun. Wait until the love was there. or like prepare for when the vegetable love was ripe and grown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.236.121 (talk) 07:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Synopsis redux
Apparently, the synopsis was vandalized and then restored with a minor alternation. The change from 'short' to 'brief' in the last sentence is an improvement, because it avoids the repetition of the word 'short', but the added parenthetical comment --(Back then, life was often short) -- is gratuitous, irrelevant (life may be considered brief even today), and not part of the summary. It is removed.

I do not mean to offend the anonymous user who added that comment. Wikipedia is collaborative effort and all contributions are encouraged. Please consider that explanatory comments on Wikipedia should not be necessary. If the text is unclear, make it clearer. In this case, the text seems clear as it was.

Rmrwiki (talk) 04:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The sex thing
The explicit mention of "virginity" indicates that the poem is indeed about persuading the coy mistress to have sex. This in no way precludes other goals that are often associated with sex (love, marriage, procreation), but the poem's focus on the mistress' physical "part{s}" to be adored, on "sport[ing]" like "amorous" birds of prey, on "tear[ing] pleasure with rough strife," etc, make it difficult to deny that sex is the central theme. Again, this doesn't preclude sex additionally serving as a figure (via metonymy) for something related, but sex is the central, primary end of the persuasion.

Irony
This poem has an ironic tone, a shared mock-epic joke of ironic hyperbole, which, if one had to explain it, goes something like, "We both know that I'm exaggerating the epic aspects of our relationship, but it's fun to engage in the pretense." It's a way of demonstrating that the speaker is capable of eloquent romanticizing while avoiding both the risk of making an overly sincere fool of himself on one hand and a firm commitment on the other. Wrapped up in a demonstration of wit and sophistication (which itself can be part of the seduction) is the point about seizing the moment, which can gain some force in virtue of the distraction. In other words, a further level of irony is plausible, along the lines of, "I'm joking about the epic portrayal, but I still want to have sex."

The poem doesn't work unless the audience is in on the mock-epic joke, and it doesn't work well unless the coy mistress is in on it, too. If she were so unsophisticated as to take the speaker's claims literally, the poem would end up being positively predatory. But within the mock-epic joke, no excesses are inappropriate, from the outlandishly romantic subjunctives of the first stanza to the second stanza's exaggerated consequences of continued refusal.

Irony can be tough to pin down and analyze, and perhaps the most efficient way to get to the gist of this poem is to suggest that one read a few New Yorker cartoons and perhaps Pope's "The Rape of the Lock," and then follow one's intuition. Sometimes, even within the context of an encyclopedia, it isn't inappropriate to point out the limitations of straightforward, literal explanation.

'Through' vs 'Thorough'
Every edition I've seen says "Thorough the iron gates of life", not "Through the iron gates of life". Is there some good scholarly reason for revising it, or is that just a mistake? Iglew (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well spotted, its an old error introduced as "cleanup" William M. Connolley (talk) 07:44, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Some allusions are better than others?
I edited this page a few days ago (from a different IP) adding an allusion to the poem's first line. The newest album from Canadian band Rush has a song called "The Anarchist," the first line of which is "Will there be world enough and time for me to sing that song?" I added this allusion because there is already a good-sized paragraph of other works which incorporate the phrase "world enough and time."

Within 24 hours, however, my addition had been reverted with the comment "Let's not fill this section up with trivia." Why is this allusion any less significant than the others that are mentioned? Are songs inferior to written works? I just don't understand why my change was removed when I was only trying to contribute to the article. I ended up at this Wikipedia page because I knew that that opening line was familiar, so I Googled the phrase "world enough and time" and was brought here. I don't see the problem with making the "Allusions" section as complete as possible.

William — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.43.129 (talk) 22:39, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Two GHOSTS in a graveyard?
I love ths poem and enjoyed reading the article. I do hope, thought, that someone will correct the reference to Peter S. Beagle's wonderful book. The main characters are both very much alive! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.152.95 (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Accent correct ?
But at my back I always hear Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near; What does this accent in  mean? Or is it just a tYpo? --Murma174 (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It means that the "e" is pronounced rather than silent, giving two syllables -- "wing-ed" rather than "wingd". Looie496 (talk) 17:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

thou vs. you
Can anyone explain why the mistress is sometimes adressed with the pronoun thou (2nd person singular), and sometimes with the more polite you (2nd person plural)? -- Orthographicus (talk) 02:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Source in Catullus?
I always learned that this poem was an elaborate translation of Catullus 5. One of the poets who made that point was Louis Zukofsky. Shouldn't we include that? --Nbauman (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Cavalier poem?
On what basis? Marvell was about as far from a cavalier as one could possibly be. He was a committed follower of Cromwell, certainly not a devotee of Charles II. Aldiboront (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:To His Coy Mistress


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Footjob

old discussion from WP:VfD
Article redirected on June 1, 2004

footjob
Straight 1-line dicdef: move to Wiktionary (only one page linked to it foot fetishism and it already contained substantially the same definition --- already fixed that).JimD 02:06, 2004 May 26 (UTC)

 * Redirecting to foot fetishism won't hurt anything. -- Cyrius|&#9998 05:25, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cyrius. Thue 15:31, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Me too — Chameleon 22:43, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I concur. --Mud 23:27, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree. --WikinaziHunter 23:29, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Footjob


text: Talk:David Pearce (philosopher)

title: Talk:David Pearce (philosopher)