text:
Talk:Golden spike

Image
I've uploaded this image of The Golden Spike. The page is somewhat image-heavy at the moment, so when I added another image, it ended up creating large sections of white space. The article needs a bit of tinkering and image organization and I don't have a ton of time to play around with it, so I'm dropping a link here in the hopes that someone else will get a chance to rearrange things around. Neil916 (Talk) 16:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

''The Golden Spike" was commissioned by David Hewes and is 14.03 ounces of 17.6 Carat solid gold. It is highly polished and engraved on all sides, including the date of May 8, 1869, the date the Golden Spike Ceremony was supposed to be held. The Golden Spike is on display at the Leland Stanford Junior University Museum. The Second Solid Gold Spike was commissioned by the San Francisco Newsletter Newspaper Company. The only engraving on the second Golden Spike was on the head. This spike, along with the fancy Laurelwood Tie in which all four precious metal spikes were placed in pre-drilled holes, was on display at the Newsletter offices in San Francisco. Both the Spike and Tie, along with the entire Newsletter Offices were destroyed in the great San Francisco Earthquake and Fire of 1906. I know these facts from the four years I spent in researching America's First Transcontinental Railroad as an Interpretive Park Ranger at Golden Spike National Historic Site at Promontory Summit, Utah 1988-92. I have personally held The Golden Spike in this image when it "visited" Golden Spike NHS, plus Nevada's solid Silver Spike and Arizona Territory's Iron Spike plated in silver on the shaft and gold on the top, when they were on loan from the Smithsonian to the Union Pacific Museum in Omaha. They are currently in the Smithsonian.

My First-Person Living History program entitled "Hit or Myth," where an Irish Union Pacific Rail Working Angel returns to clarify the Golden Spike Myth-conceptions was featured at the 125th Anniversary of the Golden Spike Ceremony at Promontory Summit in 1994, as well as at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento for RailFair '91 and '99 and a multitude of programs at Historic Societies in Utah, California, and Arizona. "Hit or Myth" will also be at the 150th Golden Spike Anniversary this next week.CrooksvilleIrish (talk) 15:37, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Subject matter
What is this article about? Is it about the golden spike itself, or is it about the ceremony in which the golden spike was driven, thus completing the transcontinental railroad in the US? The article seems to be confused about what it's talking about. Neil916 (Talk) 16:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC).
 * This article is about the four precious metal spikes and highly polished Laurelwood Tie featured at the Golden Spike Ceremony commemorating completion of America's First Transcontinental Railroad at Promontory Summit, Utah Territory May 10, 1869. Annual reenactments of the Ceremony are presented at Golden Spike National Historic Site at Promontory Summit, Utah. Daily presentations by Interpretive Park Rangers are a highlight of Park visitor's experiences at Golden Spike. There are also hiking and driving opportunities along the restored mile and a half of original size and weight rails, where the Replica "Jupiter" and "119" American Standard 4-4-0 Locomotives are displayed in the Spring and Summer, as well as along remnants of the original Transcontinental Railroad Grade. CrooksvilleIrish (talk) 15:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Just a comment- This is about the ceremony that used the four spikes. There is a separate article on the transcontinental railroad construction which culminated in the ceremony, but this is the detailed account of the ceremony. Risk Engineer (talk) 19:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Mislabeled photograph
There's a photograph accompanying this article which identifies an engine being carried on a flatcar as Virginia and Truckee Railroad No. 119. However, this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_and_Truckee_Railroad

identifies the engine as No.18, which had been decorated to resemble the historic No. 119 for use in the centennial celebration in 1969. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ormewood (talk • contribs) 19:42, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

This has been fixed (thanks)...Ormewood (talk) 18:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Locations/fates of all four spikes.
If someone has information about the locations/fates of the two other spikes (two are in the article) I think it'd be a good addition to the article. ColinClark (talk) 07:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC) Please see above. CrooksvilleIrish (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

POP CULTURE
Many articles on Wikipedia have Pop Culture refs in them. People like to know if a subject is talked about, used, or referenced in other places. I am happy to provide reference material but am not sure how to put them in the article. Vsmith, please do not undo this again or I will have to report you for WR3 Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Please see WP:other stuff exists. If you can provide a link to a good reference which explains the significance of the movie to the subject of the article, please do - and I or another editor can check it out and if suitable add to the article. The problem is that a movie about some fictional characters or whatever which uses the spike in some way is rather irrelevant here. If you can provide some sourced relevance, please do. Vsmith (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

 * And this is why Wikipedia sucks. It's pop culture. Period, that is enough to list it in the article. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 01:29, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

 * The issue in this instance is not really whether or not motion pictures are "pop culture" (they are), but one of if a single unspecified and unsourced "reference" to the "Golden Spike" in the film "Wild Wild West" is encyclopedically significant as well. Over the past almost century and a half the Spike and the Pacific Railroad have been mentioned or alluded to in literally tens of thousands of motion pictures, books (I have written a couple myself about the subject), articles, plays, illustrations, photographs, paintings, newspaper and magazine stories, academic papers, advertisements, and dozens of other types of published and unpublished works that could also qualify as "pop culture" to one extent or another.

 * Virtually none of such references, mentions, and/or allusions, however, have any particular encyclopedic significance or help to elucidate the main topic and therefore do not merit inclusion in its Wikipedia entry. Therefore just because something qualifies as "pop culture" is simply not "enough to list it in the article". It must also meet the criteria of being significant, illustrative, and/or capable of helping to educate and/or enlighten the reader about the topic.

 * For an example of the type of pop culture reference that meets these criteria for inclusion, see the material I have added to the article about the film "Union Pacific" in the entry's revised "Pop Culture" section. Centpacrr (talk) 06:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

 * The list had to start some where. I listed the film "Wild Wild West" because that's what I knew of. Feel free to add to the list from the "tens of thousands" of other references. "Wild Wild West" is a fairly recent reference that most people would remember. But I guess it's better to not list anything so no one will ever know. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 02:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Added my ref to your ref under the pop culture heading. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

 * The listing of a fictional reference to the Golden Spike in the Wild Wild West (for one thing U.S. Grant did not attend the ceremony) still lacks any sourcing, citation, or reference, as well as any rationale as to why it is significant to the understanding of the topic over all other references thereto in popular culture -- or at all. Without such it is likely to again be subject to deletion as unencyclopedic and not notable. Centpacrr (talk) 05:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Again, this is why Wikipedia sucks. People like you and Vsmith don't allow others to make changes. I linked to the film article. I noted IMDB. Feel free to add ref tags to any of that. There is a scene in the film that nods to the golden spike. Therefore it is relevant. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 04:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * With respect, I just don't see what encyclopedic value or relevance that a "nod" to the Golden Spike in a fictionalized action comedy about a mechanical tarantula that does nothing to otherwise elucidate or educate the readers of the article has about the real historic significance of the Golden Spike. I have, however, added a Pop Culture reference to the TV series Wild Wild West's relationship to the Golden Spike because of the use in that series of the 1875 V&T locomotive "Inyo" that was also used in the 1939 film "Union Pacific" as well as at the 1969 Golden Spike Centennial celebration and, from 1970 to 1979, as the replica for CPRR #60 ("Jupiter") at the Golden Spike National Historic Site. Centpacrr (talk) 06:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Upon further investigation and reflection, I have restored the ref to "Wild Wild West" with additional information. I have also added a reference to the 1924 John Ford film "The Iron Horse". Centpacrr (talk) 13:24, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Very nice clean up. Sorry to have been a pain, just do not know Wikipedia codes for putting in refs and such. Also I did not know the original show had mention of the spike nore Iron Horse. Thanks for the added information. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Not a problem. In order to justify the reference required finding how it is significant and sourcing it which is what I did. It also inspired me to create the new section on the Golden Spike Days Celebration in Omaha in 1939 using materials in my Pacific Railroad collections and added two other "Pop Culture" items. (I've written a couple of books on the overall subject and our family operates a 10,000+ page website that has been on the web since February, 1999, called the "Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum".) Thanks for standing up for your contribution in here which is always the right thing to do. That's what helps the WP project grow. Centpacrr (talk) 03:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

 * No Problem. Sorry for the "Wikipedia sucks" comments. Just been dealing with this type of issues for many, many years on several articles. :) Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

 * LOL, me too. ;=) Centpacrr (talk) 22:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

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It's been THAT LONG?! Comments on the 150th Golden Spike Ceremony
Well, it's the last day in April 2019. My name is Monte Crooks and in just 10 days, I return to Promontory Summit, Utah, where my Park Ranger career began back in 1988, just before the 119th Anniversary of the Golden Spike Ceremony. My First Person Living History Alter-Ego, Michael Keeney, comes down to Promontory as an Irish Rail-Working Angel for the Union Pacific Railroad in a presentation entitled "Hit or Myth." Michael's purpose is to clarify the Golden Spiked Mythconceptions, and there's a bunch o' them!

The greatest Myth is that Leland Stanford, using a regular iron spike hammer, DROVE a 17.6 Carat solid-gold spike into a railroad tie at Promontory Point, Utah. FAKE NEWS! Days before the completion of America's First Transcontinental Railroad, newspaper reporters aboard Leland Stanford's Dignitary train en route to Promontory actually wrote their "eyewitness" accounts of the event and telegraphed the fiction to their San Francisco Newsletter Newspaper Company. The limited information used to imagine the scenario was that the reporters knew Stanford had a Golden Spike upon which the date May 8th, 1869 was engraved. Also, the only place predominately marked upon their map of the vicinity of where the Central Pacific and Union Pacific Railroads were to meet was Promontory Point. To the reporter's minds, it was obvious that Stanford would drive the Spike at Promontory Point on May 8th!

In 150 years, the Fake News still prevails. Completion took place at Promontory Summit, thirty-seven miles North of the Point, and nobody tried to do anything but ceremonially "tap" the four precious metal Spikes brought to the Summit. Michael Keeney's job is to replace the fiction with the facts, a domitable task indeed! I will update this talk as the day to leave from Prescott, Arizona to the Celebration arrives, and will fill in my observations of the Sesquicentennial Reverie!

CrooksvilleIrish (talk) 01:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Aftermath misnomer
If the most common sense of the term, “aftermath,” is in reference to negative repercussions of a terrible event, I wonder if this section title could be changed to a more fitting name. Many dictionaries probably agree about the negative meaning of the word, that it does refer to the things that follow from an event, but “especially one of a disastrous or unfortunate nature,” as dictionary.com explains it. The material under the Aftermath heading doesn’t say the Last Spike ceremony was a disastrous episode in US history; at worst it just suggests it wasn’t originally as big a deal as it is often thought to have been. So, I would submit that the article would be slightly improved if the heading of that section were changed to something more in keeping with the article’s neutral tone. Maybe, for example, “Significance,” “Subsequent Events,” “Historical Importance,” etc. 24.229.74.212 (talk) 00:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting proposal ... It would match most of the other history articles of a similar nature. Cheers Risk Engineer (talk) 12:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Golden spike


text:
Family (disambiguation)

A family is a domestic or social group.

Family or The Family may also refer to:

Mathematics

 * Family of curves, a set of curves resulting from a function with variable parameters
 * Family of sets, a collection of sets
 * Indexed family, a family where each element can be given an index
 * Normal family, a collection of continuous functions
 * Parametric family, a family where elements are specified by a set of parameters

Religion

 * Holy Family of the Child Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and Saint Joseph
 * Family International, a religious movement formerly called the Children of God
 * The Family (Australian New Age group), a controversial Australian religious group
 * The Family (Christian political organization), or The Fellowship, a Washington, D.C.-based U.S. Christian group
 * "The Family: A Proclamation to the World", a 1995 statement issued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Science

 * Family (biology), a level of scientific classification for organisms
 * Family (periodic table), a group in the periodic table of elements
 * Gene family, a set of similar genes resulting from gene duplications
 * Protein family, a set of similar proteins resulting from gene duplications
 * Tornado family, a series of tornadoes spawned by the same storm cell

Linguistics

 * Language family, a group of languages related through descent from a common ancestral language

Art

 * The Family (Schiele), a 1918 oil painting by Egon Schiele
 * A Family (painting), a 1951 oil on canvas by Louis le Brocquy
 * The Family (Gross), a 1979 bronze sculpture in Manhattan, New York
 * The Family (Puccetti), a 1982 steel statue in West Allis, Wisconsin
 * Family (Blumenfeld), a 1983 public artwork by Helaine Blumenfeld, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.

Films

 * A Family (1943 film), a 1943 Soviet film
 * The Family (1970 film) or Città violenta, an Italian crime film directed by Sergio Sollima
 * The Family (1972 film), an Ivorian film directed by Henri Duparc
 * The Family (1987 film) or La famiglia, an Italian film directed by Ettore Scola
 * Family (1996 film), a 1996 Telugu drama
 * Family (2001 film), a Takashi Miike film
 * Family (2001 Dutch film), a 2001 Dutch drama
 * A Family (2004 film), a South Korean film starring Soo Ae
 * Family (2006 film), an Indian Hindi film
 * A Family (2010 film), a Danish drama
 * The Family (2013 film), a French action comedy directed by Luc Besson
 * Families (2015 film), a French film
 * Family: Ek Deal, Hindi title of the 2016 Indian Telugu film Nannaku Prematho

 * The Family (2017 film), a Venezuelan film
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 * A Family (2024 film), a French documentary directed by Christine Angot

Literature

 * The Family (Shimazaki novel), 1911
 * The Family (Ba Jin novel), 1933
 * The Family, a 1971 book by Ed Sanders
 * A Family, a 1978 play by Ronald Harwood
 * The Family (Buchi Emecheta novel) (U.S.) or Gwendolen (UK), 1989
 * Family (Cooper novel), 1991
 * The Family (Puzo novel), 2001
 * The Family: The Real Story of the Bush Dynasty, a 2004 book by Kitty Kelley
 * The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, a 2008 book by Jeff Sharlet

Groups

 * Family (band), a 1966–73 English rock band
 * Family (Spanish band), a 1990s pop band
 * Family (Willie Nelson's band), Willie Nelson's recording and touring group
 * The Family (band), an American R&B band formed by Prince
 * The Family (songwriters), a Swedish songwriting and music production team
 * The Family, an urban contemporary gospel choir led by Kirk Franklin

Albums

 * Family (Ignite album), 1995
 * Family (LeAnn Rimes album), 2007
 * Family (Le Loup album), 2009
 * Family (May J. album), 2009
 * Family (Noah Gundersen EP), 2011
 * Family (Think About Life album), 2009
 * Family (Thompson album), 2014
 * The Family (Brockhampton album), 2022
 * The Family (The Family album), by the R&B band, 1985
 * The Family (Mashmakhan album), 1971
 * The Family, an album by Satchel, 1996

Songs

 * "Family" (The Chainsmokers and Kygo song), 2019
 * "Family", by Björk from Vulnicura
 * "Family", by Ed Sheeran from No. 5 Collaborations Project
 * "Family", by Joe Walsh from Analog Man
 * "Family", by Hed PE from New World Orphans
 * "Family", by the Rolling Stones from Metamorphosis
 * "Family", by S Club 3
 * "Family", by TobyMac from Eye on It

Channels

 * Freeform (TV channel), formerly ABC Family, a U.S. television network
 * Family Channel (Canadian TV network), a Canadian kids' channel
 * TVNZ Family, a programming block on TVNZ 6, New Zealand

Series

 * Family (1976 TV series), a 1976–80 U.S. drama series
 * Family (1994 TV series), an Irish miniseries by Roddy Doyle
 * Family (2003 TV series), a British crime drama
 * Family (2012 TV series), a South Korean sitcom
 * #Family (2018 TV series), a Ugandan sitcom
 * Family: The Unbreakable Bond, a 2023 South Korean television series
 * Family: the web series, an episodic 2008 web series
 * Families (TV series), a 1990–93 British daytime soap opera
 * The Family (1971 TV series), a 1971 Canadian drama television series
 * The Family (1974 TV series), a fly-on-the-wall documentary series
 * The Family (2003 TV series), a 2003 reality television show
 * The Family (2008 TV series), a documentary series following British families
 * The Family (2011 TV series), an Australian version of the British series
 * The Family (2016 TV series), an American thriller/drama series
 * The Family (miniseries), a 2019 documentary series

Episodes and segments

 * "Family" (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
 * "Family" (House)
 * "Family" (Masters of Horror), 2006
 * "Family" (Star Trek: The Next Generation)
 * "Family" (Stargate SG-1)
 * "Family" (The Secret Circle)
 * "The Family" (sketch), from The Carol Burnett Show
 * "Families", a Series F episode of the television series QI (2008)

Other uses in arts, entertainment, and media

 * Family (musical instruments), a grouping of similar musical instruments
 * Family Radio, a non-commercial traditional religious broadcasting network in the United States
 * The Family, a fictional group of aliens battled by the DC Comics character Metamorpho
 * The Family, a professional wrestling tag team consisting of Tony D'Angelo, Channing "Stacks" Lorenzo, Luca Crusifino and Adriana Rizzo

Groups and organizations

 * Family (US Census), a group of related people residing together
 * The Family (American crime organization), an NJ African-American crime organization founded by Akbar Pray
 * The Family (Arkansas politics), a 19th-century American political coalition
 * The Family (club), a private club formed in San Francisco in 1901
 * "The Family", a group of 18th-century Carolina planters opposed by George Burrington
 * "The Family", a 2005–06 American terrorist cell arrested in Operation Backfire
 * "The Family", a gang responsible for The Family Murders in Adelaide, Australia.
 * Crime family, a name for crime organizations.
 * The Families, a gang in GTA San Andreas and GTA V.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Family (disambiguation)


text:
Rusalka (opera)

Rusalka, Op. 114, is an opera ('lyric fairy tale') by Antonín Dvořák. His ninth opera (1900–1901), it became his most successful, frequenting the standard repertoire worldwide. Jaroslav Kvapil wrote the libretto on Karel Jaromír Erben's and Božena Němcová's fairy tales. The rusalka is a water sprite from Slavic mythology; it usually inhabits a lake or river.

For many years unfamiliarity with Dvořák's operas outside the Czech lands helped reinforce a perception that composition of operas was a marginal activity, and that despite the beauty of its melodies and orchestral timbres Rusalka was not a central part of his output or of international lyric theatre. In recent years it has been performed more regularly by major opera companies. In the five seasons from 2008 to 2013 it was performed by opera companies worldwide far more than all of Dvořák's other operas combined.

The most popular excerpt from Rusalka is the soprano aria, the "Song to the Moon" ("Měsíčku na nebi hlubokém") for the title character in act 1, which is often performed in concert and recorded separately. It has also been arranged for violin and used on film soundtracks.

Composition history
Dvořák had played viola for pit orchestras in Prague (the Estates Theatre from 1857 until 1859 while a student, then from 1862 until 1871 at the Provisional Theatre). He thus had direct experience of a wide range of operas by Mozart, Weber, Rossini, Lortzing, Wagner, Verdi as well as his compatriot Smetana.

Kvapil's libretto was written before he had any contact with the composer. The plot contains elements which also appear in The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen and in Undine by Friedrich de la Motte Fouqué, and has been described as a "sad, modern fairy tale", in a similar vein to his previous play, Princessa Pampeliška. The libretto was completed by 1899, when Kvapil began looking for composers interested in setting his text to music. His composer friends were engaged with other works, but mentioned that Dvořák was looking for a project. The composer, always interested in Erben's stories, read the libretto and composed his opera quite rapidly, with the first draft begun on 22 April 1900 and completed by the end of November. Coming after his four symphonic poems inspired by the folk-ballads of Erben of 1896–97, Rusalka may be viewed as the culmination of Dvořák's exploration of a "wide variety of drama-creating musical techniques".

Performance history
Rusalka was first performed in Prague on 31 March 1901, with Růžena Maturová as the first Rusalka. It became an enormous success in Czech lands, and soon gained success also abroad. Shortly after the premiere Dvořák was in contact with Mahler, then at the Vienna Court Opera about mounting the work there, and having met Mahler signed a contract for a production to take place, but this fell through.

The first performance outside Bohemia took place in Ljubljana. The opera was given in Vienna by a Czech company in 1910; in German translation it was given in Stuttgart in 1935.

The UK stage premiere was given by John Lewis Opera at Peter Jones, Sloane Square in May 1950. The Times commented: "It is left to amateurs to stage for us those operas by composers howsoever eminent which do not get into the international repertory". The first professional performances were at Sadler's Wells Theatre in 1959; a 1983 production by English National Opera was filmed and revived several times.

The United States premiere of the opera was presented by the San Diego Opera in 1975 with Kathryn Bouleyn in the title role. Rusalka was first performed in New York at the Metropolitan Opera in 1993, a production from the Vienna State Opera, directed by Otto Schenk, with Gabriela Beňačková and Neil Rosenshein. The 2007 production by Opera Australia with Cheryl Barker in the title role and Richard Hickox conducting won the Helpmann Award for Best Opera.

Act 1
A meadow by the edge of a lake

Three wood sprites tease the water goblin, Vodník, ruler of the lake. Rusalka, the water nymph, tells her father the water goblin that she has fallen in love with a human prince who comes to hunt around the lake, and she wants to become human to embrace him. He tells her it is a bad idea, but nonetheless steers her to a witch, Ježibaba, for assistance. Rusalka sings her "Song to the Moon", asking it to tell the prince of her love. Ježibaba tells Rusalka that, if she becomes human, she will lose the power of speech and immortality; moreover, if she does not find love with the prince, he will die and she will be eternally damned. Rusalka agrees to the terms and drinks a potion. The prince, hunting a white doe, finds Rusalka, embraces her, and leads her away, as her father and sisters lament.

Act 2
The garden of the prince's castle

A gamekeeper and his nephew, the kitchen boy, note that the prince is to be married to a mute and nameless bride. They suspect witchcraft and doubt it will last, as the prince is already lavishing attentions on a foreign princess who is a wedding guest. The foreign princess, jealous, curses the couple. The prince rejects Rusalka. Rusalka then goes back to the lake with her father the water goblin. Though she has now won the prince's affections, the foreign princess is disgusted by the prince's fickleness and betrayal and she scorns him, telling him to follow his rejected bride to Hell.

Act 3
A meadow by the edge of a lake

Rusalka returns to the lake and laments about her fate. She meets Ježibaba and asks for a solution to her woes. Ježibaba gives her a knife and tells her that she can save herself if she kills the prince with it. Rusalka rejects this, throwing the dagger into the lake. Rusalka becomes a will-o'-the-wisp, a spirit of death living in the depths of the lake, emerging only to lure humans to their deaths. The gamekeeper and the kitchen boy are worried about the deteriorating condition of the prince, and go to the lake in order to get rid of Rusalka. They meet Ježibaba and lash out on Rusalka's betrayal, but are rebutted by the water goblin, who says that it was actually the prince that betrayed Rusalka. The wood sprites mourn Rusalka's plight. The prince, searching for his white doe, comes to the lake, senses Rusalka, and calls for her. Rusalka appears and is now able to speak to him. He asks her to kiss him, even knowing her kiss means death. They kiss and he dies; and the water goblin comments that all sacrifices are futile. In her final song, Rusalka tells the prince, "For your love, for that beauty of yours, for your inconstant human passion, for everything by which my fate is cursed, human soul, God have mercy on you!"

Instrumentation
Rusalka is scored for 2 flutes, 1 piccolo, 2 oboes, 1 English horn, 2 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 1 tuba, percussion, harp and strings.

Music
Dvořák's music is generally through-composed and uses motifs for Rusalka, her damnation, the water sprite and the forest. His word-setting is expressive while allowing for nationally inflected passages, and Grove judges that the work shows the composer at the height of his maturity. He uses established theatrical devices – dance sections, comedy (Gamekeeper and Turnspit) and pictorial musical depiction of nature (forest and lake). Rodney Milnes (who provided the translation for an ENO production) admired the "wealth of melodic patterns that are dramatic in themselves and its shimmering orchestration". One writer considers the final section of the opera – the duet for the prince and Rusalka – as "[twelve] or so of the most glorious minutes in all opera" in their "majestic, almost hymnic solemnity" while another describes the opera as a "vivid, profoundly disturbing drama".

In 2014, Slovak conductor and composer Marián Lejava produced a version for chamber orchestra that premiered at Theater Orchester Biel Solothurn in Switzerland that same year and would later be performed in other performing venues.

title: Rusalka (opera)


text:
User talk:Ariel Horwitz

Hi Ariel, nice page on Counting the Omer (did you write that on Lag be-Omer?). I'm not sure about Googliboop, though, which has already been voted for deletion. JFW | T@lk  20:23, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ariel Horwitz


text:
RTL (German TV channel)

RTL (from  Radio Télévision Luxembourg ), formerly RTL plus and RTL Television, is a German-language free-to-air television channel owned by RTL Deutschland, headquartered in Cologne. Founded as an offshoot of the German-language radio programme  Radio Luxemburg , RTL is considered a full-service broadcaster under the Medienstaatsvertrag (Interstate Media Treaty) and is the largest private television network in Germany. As of August 2010, RTL employs some 500 permanent staff, having outsourced its news and technical departments.

In September 2021,  Mediengruppe RTL Deutschland  (RTL Germany Media Group) was renamed RTL Deutschland. As part of the rebrand, both the group and the channel received new logos and branding.

History
RTL plus was already known through the radio station. Even before the broadcast began, the pressure on politicians to introduce private television in Germany was growing in Saarland, which could be reached from the broadcasting systems in Luxembourg. Private television began operations in the Federal Republic of Germany on January 1, 1984 with the two-year Ludwigshafen cable pilot project (Kabelpilotprojekt). It was the birth of PKS (later Sat.1). A day later, RTL plus, which was then broadcasting from Luxembourg and named after the Luxembourg radio and television broadcaster RTL (derived from Radio Télévision Lëtzebuerg, see also RTL Télé Lëtzebuerg), began its German-language program from 5:27 p.m. The unusual broadcast start took place in a small studio in Bertrange with the following scene: Chief doctor Rainer Holbe delivered a television with the RTL-plus logo in a delivery room with his obstetricians. The broadcast times were Monday to Friday from 5:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. and Saturday to Sunday from 5:30 p.m. to midnight. The first RTL broadcast after the starting signal was the news 7 vor 7 with Hans Meiser and Geert Müller-Gerbes.

RTL plus was famous in its early years for showing low-budget films and American programmes. In 1988, it was the second most-viewed channel in Germany.

After reunification in 1990, broadcasting was extended to the entire country. RTL moved to Cologne and received the right to broadcast on free-to-air frequencies. That same year, RTL acquired the first-run rights to the German Football First Division. Deals with Cannon and Universal Studios finally provided more high-profile films for the channel. In 2012, RTL made a deal with Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures to air films from its media library until 2016, when it switched to Universal, as Disney Channel was relaunched as a free-to-air channel competing with RTL.

In July 2015, the channel introduced the slogan Wilkommen zuhause (Welcome home) to complement Mein RTL, and launched its biggest advertising campaign in 20 years. This tagline (as Wilkommen zu Hause, with a space between zu and Hause) was earlier used in the early 2000s.

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As part of a comprehensive restructuring within Mediengruppe RTL Deutschland, RTL unveiled a new identity, a new, multi-colourful logo and a new graphics package. The rebrand rolled out on 15 September 2021, as well as RTL Crime, RTL Living and RTL Passion.

Germany
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title: RTL (German TV channel)


text: User talk:80.247.152.83

title: User talk:80.247.152.83


text:
Talk:Liberty Island

Waters of NJ
Liberty Island is considered to be in the waters of New Jersey.

DigiBullet 20:34, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Tweaks and a new section
I decided that extended details on the territorial relationships between Liberty Island and NY and NJ belongs here (rather than in Statue of Liberty), and that consequently details on the question of whether the island is "in" NJ also belongs here.

I tweaked the opening paragraphs to group facts about the names by which the island is known. In the process, I changed the language

 * Although the island is usually associated with New York, it is actually closer to the New Jersey side of New York Harbor, separted from the infill of Liberty State Park in Jersey City, by less than one-half mile (1 km), well within the New Jersey side of the border.

to read

 * Liberty Island is 2000 feet (600 meters) from Liberty State Park in Jersey City, New Jersey. By comparison it is 1-5/8 statute miles (2.6 kilometers) from Battery Park in Manhattan. Although it is not a part of New Jersey, it is situated on the New Jersey side of the boundary line between New Jersey and New York.

I wanted an explicit statement that it is "not a part of New Jersey," so that its location relative to the boundary line could not be taken to imply that it is legally part of New Jersey.

I then added a section on "relationship to New York and New Jersey" which contains a hedged, weaselly suggestion that perhaps it is "geographically" part of New Jersey.

I tried to clearly acknowledge the undisputed facts which are important to JerseyDevil, while still making clear that legally the (dry part of) the island is part of New York. Specifically, I say that

 * Perhaps a case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.

The reason why I saw "perhaps" is that, simply, I really have no idea what it means to say that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. If the phrase "geographically within" actually has a well-understood meaning, and if someone who isn't a New Jersey booster and understands geography better than I do can says that it's true that Liberty Island is "geographically within" New Jersey, I'd be willing to accept it, but for now I feel happier weaseling. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More on NY/NJ question; charters; legalisms
Thank you for taking my complaints into consideration, but I don't like the word "perhaps". It's a FACT that the Statue of Liberty is in New Jersey's territorial waters. It's also a FACT that NJ prvides the electricity, water, sewage and all the other infastructure to BOTH Ellis Island and Liberty Island. That is why the Statue of Liberty remains lit, even while NY goes black from one of their many blackouts.

You bring up the 1664 charter - but you misread it. It says ALL lands west of manhattan island and Long island are given as part of NJ.

"James Duke of York, doth hereby acknowledge, and thereof doth acquit and discharge the said John Lord Berkley and Sir George Carteret forever by these presents hath granted, bargained, sold, released and confirmed, and by these presents doth grant, bargain, sell, release and confirm unto the said John Lord Berkley and Sir George Carteret, their heirs and assigns for ever, all that tract of land adjacent to New England, and lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island and bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's river, and hath upon the west Delaware bay or river, and extendeth southward to the main ocean as far as Cape May at the mouth of the Delaware bay; and to the northward as far as the northermost branch of the said bay or river of Delaware, which is forty-one degrees and forty minutes of latitude, and crosseth over thence in a strait line to Hudson's river in forty-one degrees of latitude; which said tract of land is hereafter to be called by the name or names of New Caeserea or New Jersey: and also all rivers, mines, mineralls; woods, fishings, hawking, hunting, and fowling, and all other royalties, profits, commodities, and hereditaments whatever, to the said lands and premises belonging or in any wise appertaining;"

Even in the Supreme Court case of 1996 it declares tha these lands have been in contention between NJ and NY since colonial times. It also states that in the original charter to NJ these lands were given to New Jersey.

"...The States of New Jersey and New York have disputed their sovereign boundary in the vicinity of Ellis Island since colonial times. Their competing claims originally rested on the terms of a land grant from the Duke of York, proprietor of the Colony of New York, to Lord Berkeley and Sir George Carteret, which created the Colony of New Jersey.  '''The grant included lands west of Long Island and Manhattan Island, "bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's River."'''...'

Now where does the charter say anything about Low Water mark or the islands belonging to NY. The charter however DOES clearly state that the lands west of Manhattan and Long Island are granted to NJ. Both Ellis Island and Liberty Island are west of Manhattan and Long Island. The problem rests in the ambiguity of this text, which was often the case in the old charters. What is meant by west of Manhattan? If the grant was for the low water mark as you contend, then why would they say ALL lands west of Long Island. Going by the grant, Governors Island and Staten Island should also be New Jersey's, because they are BOTH west of Long Island. The grant basically demonstrates that the NJ/NY border should be just west of Manhattan Island and curve east between Governors Island and Long Island and continue south BETWEEN Long Island and Staten Island. It was NOT in 1664 that NY laid claim to Liberty Island, but almost 200 years later. The problem is that NJ didn't fight it at the time, but just accepted it. And believe me - tourists would much rather have it in NJ than NY since they would only have to pay 6% sales tax (ZERO Percent on clothes) if it was in NJ - instead of the 8.5% sales tax that they currently have to pay. --JerseyDevil 17:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the charter material was mostly written by User:Decumanus, maybe you should leave a note on his Talk page asking him to join in this discussion.

About that "perhaps." I assume you mean the sentence:

 * Perhaps a case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.

If you want to remove the word "perhaps" so that it reads

 * A case can be made for language to the effect that Liberty Island is "geographically" within New Jersey's borders. But New Jersey has never claimed any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island.

I won't revert, as long as the sentence leaves some room for doubt.

Look. I don't believe there's any real, final, definitive answer to the question, because there's nothing real at issue here. Unless New York and New Jersey decide to take it to court nobody is going to know the answer.

Now, you say "It was NOT in 1664 that NY laid claim to Liberty Island, but almost 200 years later. The problem is that NJ didn't fight it at the time, but just accepted it." Well, if New Jersey "didn't fight it... but just accepted it," well, you know, under all sorts of law after a certain number of decades it would just be New York's under adverse possession or whatever.

I mean, we're getting into science-fiction parallel universe stuff here. If New Jersey had known that the Statue of Liberty would be built there a century later, maybe they would have fought and won. But on the other hand, raising the money for the statue was very difficult and for years it was never clear whether the statue would actually be erected. If the island was accepted as belonging to New Jersey, maybe Joseph Pulitzer would have been less enthusiastic about raising money and would have shrugged and said "Let Jersey City do it." Or perhaps he would have campaigned to put the statue somewhere else.

I personally am not enough of an historian or legal scholar to make sense out of century-old documents. I don't know what your credentials might be. Encyclopedias in general, and Wikipedia in particular, is a _secondary source._ Find some half-decent book that says the interpretation of the charter means thus-and-such, or that discusses these specific territorial details in depth. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

P. S. That sales tax remark is just silly. Yeah, and tourists would like it even better if it were in New Hampshire. What is there to buy on Liberty Island, anyway? I've never thought of it as a shopping mecca, exactly. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

First concerning the "perhaps" - it's not a perhaps issue as to whether Liberty Island is geographically within NJ - it is a fact it is. The border between NY and NJ is EAST of the islands. So both Ellis Island and LIBERTY Island are within NJ.

I am perfectly aware of the history of building the Statue of Liberty - I have been to both Ellis Island and Liberty Island hundreds of times, I was just there in June. Aas regards the comment on whether NY would support the building of the Statue of Liberty is it was in NY or NJ - I would say they would. They wouold still attempt to claim it though. NY raised the money to build Sandy Hook lighthouse in the 1700's. They later tried to claim Sandy Hook as their land - but lost that battle. They also repeatedly promote the Jets and Giants - even though they get nothing from them, they're both NJ teams who play in NJ. The only thing they have is "NY" on their uniforms, but still NY promotes them as "their team" (except of course to try getting the west side stadium built - then they were referred to as NJ teams they were trying to get back :p)

I like your comment about Wikipedia being a secondary source, my argument is that the information is erroneous. But then again - much of the informatiohn concerning NJ is erroneous on Wikipedia (such as the state vegetable being the tomato). I know people who say "well wikipedia says...". The information concerning the charter is INCORRECT and should be removed. Do you deny that the charter says "all that tract of land adjacent to New England, and lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island"? You say to quote a book that says that all the lands west of Manhattan and Long Island belonged to NJ - what makes a book more reliable than the ORIGINAL charter? Basically what it boils down to is that you don't want to face what the charter says.

Now onto the Sales Tax issue. It was not "just plain silly". Your comment about New Hamshire is silly because the statue if no where near New Hamsphire. As for buying things there - maybe you haven't been to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island - but it might amaze you that BOTH have HUGE souvenir shops - where people pay the 8.5% NY sales tax. So yes - tourists would probably be very happy to have the Statue of Liberty in NJ so they would only pay 6% and zero percent on clothes.--JerseyDevil 19:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It is a misreading of the 1664 charter to say that New Jersey has "ALL lands west of manhattan island and Long island." The charter very specifically spells out the boundries of New Jersey.  It says: all that tract of land (1) adjacent to New England, and (2) lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island, and (3) bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's river, and (4) hath upon the west Delaware bay or river, and (5) extendeth southward to the main ocean as far as Cape May at the mouth of the Delaware bay, and (6) to the northward as far as the northermost branch of the said bay or river of Delaware, which is forty-one degrees and forty minutes of latitude, and (7) crosseth over thence in a strait line to Hudson's river in forty-one degrees of latitude.  Numbers (1) and (2) only generally define the location of the tract (i.e. adjacent to New England and west of Manhattan), whereas numbers (3) through (7) define the actual boundries.  Key to this discussion is number (3) which defines the eastern boundry as "the main sea, and part by Hudson's river".  Where the land meets the sea (or river) was the boundry in 1664. Gnosticdogma 22:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

"Within New Jersey's Borders"
Note the paragraph here about the NY-NJ Compact of 1834:  " The first three articles of the Compact are the focus of this bi-state feud. Article First establishes the boundary line between the two states (Figure 2) which in this stretch is more or less the middle of the Hudson River. Article Second states that New York "shall retain its present jurisdiction of and over Bedlow's and Ellis's islands --- now under the jurisdiction ofthat state." (Note these islands lie to the west of the New York/New Jersey boundary."

It's explicit: Liberty Island is part of New York State. It's surrounded by Jersey (harbor-floor) territory, but that doesn't make it "Within NJ" any more than the country of Lesotho is "Within South Africa". It's called a "exclave"/"enclave" when one government owns land that is surrounded by the land of a second government. Claiming that Liberty Island is "Within NJ" is misleading as it implies that Liberty Island is part of NJ, or under the jurisdiction of NJ. It is neither.

"Associated with New York CIty"
I've now added a borderline-off-topic paragraph which tries to account for the feelings of New Jersey residents. In support of my statement that the Statue of Liberty is often associated with New York City, I offer: a photo service's stock photo of "the Statue of Liberty in New York City, New York, USA" and list of the "modern Wonders of the World"  includes "The Statue of Liberty in New York City, USA;" such examples could be multiplied.

Residents?
When I was a kid (we're talking Carter Administration era) I remember learning about a handful of families that lived on Liberty Island. (I think it was on TV once and maybe also in a magazine like Junior Scholastic.) I don't remember why people were living on the island, but in hindsight I assume the parents worked for the National Park Service. Anyone know more about this, or whether anyonestill lives there? In any case it might warrant mentioning in the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC) Ive seen a history channel show that said a park ranger lived on the island--24.23.82.233 15:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This just seems really unlikely. Maybe you're thinking of Governors Island?--Pharos 08:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

There's a cluster of 5 buildings on the north-west point of the island that definately have the appearance of residences. -Z

Map
Can we have a map showing where exactly this is located? Badagnani 16:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is a map showing the Statue that is Physically in New Jersey, minus all the BS legal mumbo jumbo nonsense.

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/statueofliberty/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.240.154 (talk) 07:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct Location?
From Ellis Island article: "The Statue of Liberty ... is actually on nearby Liberty Island, which is about 1/2 mile to the South."

From Liberty Island article: "It is separated from nearby Ellis Island by approximately 1 mi (1.6 km)."

So what is the actual location of these 2 islands, and the distance separating them? Maybe somebody fluent with GPS or Google Maps or TerraServer could find an accurate distance? T-bonham 07:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Google Maps shows the two islands approximately 700 meters apart - just under 1/2 mile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JackieRipper (talk • contribs) 14:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/statueofliberty/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.240.154 (talk) 07:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Liberty Island and Jersey City
On the location of Liberty Island, it might be of interest to note that Jersey City has assigned a block number to Liberty Island, 2156, as well as Ellis Island, 2155 - with the latter having the NYS area clearly marked. reference: map 12.12, page 347 of "Realty Atlas - Hudson County New Jersey" 2004, First American Real Estate Solutions.

 * That's interesting. IMHO you should add it to the article, as a relevant fact. Please don't phrase it in a way that suggests that it proves anything or settles the issue; I think the fact can stand by itself, allowing readers to deduce what they will. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I also do not think it is accurate to say that the boundary has "never been officially disputed." The Riparian Commission(s) of the 19th century were quite contentious on this issue.

 * Got any quotations speaking to this? Is it clear that they were arguing about the actual land of Liberty Island and not just riparian rights? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

JWB

59,000!
59,000 sqare meters? That's 59 kilometers! There's no way this little tiny island takes up anywhere near that amount of space! Andy Johnston (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, that's 0.59 square kilometers (1 kilometer = 1000 meters, 1 square kilometer = 1,000,000 square meters (1000 meters * 1000 meters = 1 kilometer * 1 kilometer = 1 square kilometer))79.198.70.73 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Liberty Island part of New York City?
Please discuss here. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

"BEDLOE'S ISLAND, one of a group of islands in New York Harbor near the mouth of the Hudson River, has had a long and interesting history. Over it have flown the flags of Holland, England, and the United States; and for a brief time it was lent to the French Government. It has also belonged to the corporation of New York City, to the State, and to several private owners.

The Mohegan Indians called it "Minnissais, meaning Lesser Island. At various times it has been known as "Great Oyster," "Love Island," "Bedloo's Island," "Kennedy's Island," "Corporation Island," "Bedlow's Island"—an anglicized form of the original owner's name—and now "Bedloe's," a spelling for which there is no historical basis.

Under Dutch sovereignty the island became the property of Isaack Bedloo, merchant and "select burgher" of New Amsterdam, who was born in Calais, France. His name was listed with 94 others in the "Remonstrance of the People of New Netherlands to the Director-General and Council"—a protest of public-spirited citizens to Holland against certain intolerable conditions. So it was not surprising that under English rule the island was formally granted to him by Governor Nicolls of New York.

Bedloo is believed to have died in 1673. His estate retained the island until 1732, when his daughter Mary sold it to Adolphe Philipse and Henry Lane for 5 shillings. During their ownership the island was temporarily commandeered as the first quarantine station by the city, which feared "that small-pox and other malignant fevers may be brought in from South Carolina, Barbadoes, Antigua, and other places, where they have great mortality."

In 1746, Archibald Kennedy bought the island for the sum of £100, for use as a summer home. During his ownership the State ordered the erection of a beacon on Bedloe's Island, for the purpose of warning New Jersey, Connecticut, and New York of the approach of an enemy.

In 1756, the Governor of New York instructed Kennedy, as presiding councillor of New York, to exercise all possible. precautions to prevent the introduction of smallpox, which was then raging in Philadelphia. Kennedy permitted the use of his island again as a temporary quarantine station. In 1759, the Corporation of the City of New York bought the island for £1,000 to erect a pest-house. During the next few years it was leased to several different persons for varied periods of time.

When the English occupied New York they seized Bedloe's Island and used it as a refuge for Tory sympathizers. Objecting to this use, rebels managed to set fire to all the buildings on the island and to do other damage.

The French came into the picture in 1793, using Bedloe's Island as an isolation station for 3 years. In 1796, the island was conveyed to the ownership of New York State for use as a hospital site or any other desired purpose.

By this time steps had been taken by the newly organized Federal Government, in conjunction with the State, to erect fortifications to protect New York Harbor. Three sites—Governor's Island, Ellis Island, and Bedloe's Island—were chosen for defense fortifications, and on February 15, 1800, by act of the New York Legislature, the three islands were ceded to the United States Government.

Construction of a land battery, in the shape of an 11-point star, was begun on Bedloe's Island in 1806 and finished 5 years later. For a while referred to merely as the "works on Bedloe's Island," it later was named "Fort Wood" in memory of a distinguished hero of the War of 1812 who was killed in 1814 during an attack on Fort Erie.

Following the War of 1812, Fort Wood served at various times as a Corps of Artillery garrison, ordnance depot, and recruiting station, and intermittently as a quarantine station.

Then came Bartholdi and his great idea, and in 1877 Bedloe's Island was chosen as the site for the Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World. Although the island was then abandoned as a military post, it remained under the control of the War Department, with the exception of an acre or so at its north end which was set aside for the Lighthouse Board which operated the light in the torch. In 1901, the lighthouse reservation also was placed under War Department control."

- http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/hh/11/hh11m.htm

The above information is all taken from a PD source and should be grafted into the article.--evrik (talk) 04:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Name
Didn't Al Sharpton want to change the name to Martin Luther King Island at one time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.215.199.207 (talk) 21:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Infobox-Location
Liberty Island is located Upper New York Bay and the most appropriate choice for the info box. It is clear, direct, neutral description that neither incorrect or misleading. The rationale for doing so is based the three following references: Djflem (talk) 11:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Statue of Liberty National Monument NPS which uses both New York and New Jersey as location
 * Frequently Asked Questions NPS which expressly avoids the use of the word location
 * NEW JERSEY v. NEW YORK 523 U.S. 767 The Supreme Court decision clarfies the fact that both Ellis Island and Liberty Island are islands located in New Jersey under the partially under the jurisdiction of New York
 * Ok then, I put the following on your talk page, but I'll post it here too:

 * I do not understand why you keep wanting to insert inaccurate information about the location of Liberty Island in the articles on the island and the Statue of Liberty. The island has never been a part of New Jersey, at any time in it's history.

 * In 1664 the boundary of the Colony of New York was set at the shore of the Hudson River (not in the middle of the river as is normal) this designation caused all of the islands in the river and bay to belong to the colony of New York, not New Jersey.

 * Later when the border between the two colonies was changed to be in the middle of the river it did not effect the jurisdiction of the islands that now found themselves on the other side of the line (namely Ellis and Liberty). While all of the submerged land underwater now belonged to New Jersey all of the dry land above water remained the territory of New York.

 * Ellis Island, at some point in it's history, was enlarged by drugging up dirt from the bottom of the river and adding it to the island to make it larger so it would be easier to build on. This caused the jurisdiction of the island to fall to BOTH New York and New Jersey but ONLY because it used dirt that belong to New Jersey to enlarge it.

 * Liberty Island, on the other hand, has never been enlarged and so has remained firmly in the jurisdiction of the City and State of New York.

 * Now because the Statue of Liberty National Monument contains both Ellis and Liberty Islands it spans two states, but Liberty Island itself is still, and has been for the past 346 years, part of New York.

 * I hope this clears up any confusion.

 * As per your sources...

 * The first I've covered as Ellis Island is part of New Jersey but Liberty Island isn't the site would have to list both states because the National Monument covers both islands.

 * The second does cover the location stating, "Is the Statue in New York or New Jersey? The Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island, federal property administered by the National Park Service, located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. A pact between New York and New Jersey, ratified by Congress in 1834, declared this issue."

 * The third is the case I referred to talking about how the jurisdiction of Ellis Island is shared by NY and NJ. If you actually read your own source Liberty Island isn't covered by that case, it only talks about the filled land on Ellis Island and only Ellis Island.  You can find an easier to read copy of the case file here. 69.132.221.35 (talk) 19:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The infobox used by Wikipedia for landmarks and such requires a location, as in: Where is it? You seem to be avoiding that issue with red herrings: about claims, ownership, administration, territorial jurisdiction. The Supreme Court decision acknowledges that Ellis Island and Liberty Island are on the New Jersey side the border between the two the two states. It also acknowleges New York's soverignity over dry land of Liberty Island and portions Ellis Island. Neither are contiguous to New York County, of which they are part. They are located within the territorial waters of New Jersey, which incidentally is what the case is all about: submerged land. There is no justification to suggest that Liberty Island does not qualify as belonging in the Category:Geography of Hudson County, since it is encompassed within it. To continue to add a red linked non-article Mouth of the Hudson River (which leads toUpper New York Bay and site of Libert Island) to the infobox is sabotage of WikipediaDjflem (talk) 04:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Sabotage" of Wikipedia. You have got to be kidding me.

 * Ok, here's the thing, I was trying to explain, in detail, my point. Liberty Island, while on the wrong side of the state line on a technicality, is not and never has been part of New Jersey.  Nor has it ever been a part of Hudson County NJ.  It is part of New York City/County/State since 1664.  New Jersey agreed to this fact in 1834.

 * The submerged land isn't part of the Island this article is about. And being contiguous isn't a requirement to part of New York County, see Marble Hill, Manhattan for another example of part of New York County being on the other side of a body of water (in this case the Harlem River).

 * In this case, however, I'll agree to listing Upper New York Bay due to the fact that Mouth of the Hudson River doesn't actually exist as an article. But I'm still removing the Hudson County category because, as I've said over and over, it isn't actually part of Hudson County.  It's part of New York County.  You can add that category to Ellis Island (if it isn't already) all you want, but Liberty Island isn't part of it.  69.132.221.35 (talk) 04:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, because you keep adding the Hudson County category, allow me to present two more bits of evidence for my side.

 * First off, let's visit Google Maps. On their maps they list and show all state lines, including (of course) the New York/New Jersey line.  But if you zoom in on Liberty Island you see something surprising...another state line!  This clearly shows that Liberty Island is a little enclave of New York County located within the boundaries of Hudson County.  Literally a "black hole in the geography of Hudson County" as you said.

 * Second on the Hudson County article there is a map showing the various municipalities of the county. There are three colors in the key: incorporated place (pink), township (green), and water (blue).  But if you look at the map itself you see a fourth color...white!  The white covers both the New York section of Ellis Island (the original land) and Liberty Island, and only these two locations.  Why you ask?  Because those two locations are not part of Hudson County.  Note how the New Jersey section of Ellis Island is pink with the rest of Jersey City while the white bit isn't.

 * Just wanted to add that. Cheers!  69.132.221.35 (talk) 07:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm glad that you acknowledge the fact that the maps show both Liberty Island and Ellis Island are indeed located within Hudson County, and are exclaves of New York County, which I added, by the way. Subsequently you would have to agree that since the two white portions or black holes fall within the geography of Hudson County, the Category:Geography of Hudson County (which concerns all aspects of the geography of Hudson County-especially anamolies like exclaves!) the article Liberty Island should unquestionablly be included in it.

 * As for the article (what its about is determined by the contributors) there is a discussion about dry and submerged portions in it. There is a also a long section about the relationship between the states, as there is in the Statue of Liberty article. (They are actually misplaced and will be changed: The section Statue of Liberty should be here and discusion of each state's use of the national monumment should be in the other article) Therefore the map is most apppropriate to the section (since a good portion of the article discusses that relationship) and should be supported with a good visual addition to the understanding of the issue, wouldn't you agreed?

 * If you don't agree then I suggest you seek a third party opinion and put the article up for discussion. Until such time, do not revert or remove my edits regarding the above issuesDjflem (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have always said that Liberty Island is on the New Jersey side of the line, but it isn't part of New Jersey nor Hudson County. It's a tiny piece of New York County/State surrounded by Hudson County.

 * The geography of Hudson County is all around the island but the island itself isn't part of Hudson County, and therefore isn't part of it's geography. That's what I've been trying to tell you over and over and over.

 * Because the Island isn't part of Hudson County it doesn't belong in this category. At all.

 * Also, I wasn't removing the map, I was changing it to the more zoomed in one. With a full-on state map you can't even tell anything about it.  Besides as the island is a New York State island the map should be New York State not New Jersey.

 * Next, under what authority do you demand that I not remove the category that doesn't belong with this article? I will continue to revert or remove those edits as they are as incorrect now as they were when you first inserted them. 69.132.221.35 (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Outside opinion It's my understanding that Liberty Island is an exclave of New York County surrounded by Hudson County. As such, I don't see how it would be correct to include it in a Hudson County category, because it's not part of Hudson County (or NJ) strictly speaking. You wouldn't say Washington DC is part of Virginia or Maryland, nor would you say that Mount Oliver, Pennsylvania is a part of the city of Pittsburgh (though it is correctly listed as part of the metro area of Pittsburgh).  OhNo itsJamie  Talk 01:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Another assessment First, I must warn the editors involved that they're brushing up against 3RR and they're certainly involved in editwarring in pagespace. I assert that the National Park Service website answers this question specifically, and does use the word "location" (although that seems a minor quibble):

"Is the Statue in New York or New Jersey? The Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island, federal property administered by the National Park Service, located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. A pact between New York and New Jersey, ratified by Congress in 1834, declared this issue."

- From the National Park Service FAQ

 * That sounds pretty definitive to me. In any case, both of you should take a breather before you find yourselves blocked for warring. BusterD (talk) 01:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Multiple maps with coordinates
I'm not sure exactly what you two have done, but at the top of my browser, I see two overlapping sets of coordinates. Could you decide on one map? Personally I like the File:USA New York City location map.svg specifically because it appears to show Liberty and Ellis Islands as outside the Manhattan administration area, and gives a good idea of location relative to the major features, unlike either state map. Neither state map turns me on so much for this pagespace, though I can see why the NY state map is appropriate for the Statue of Liberty pagespace (and please don't take your disagreement over there). Please consider finding a solution which solves this problem. BusterD (talk) 13:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's the multiple infoboxes with coordinates. We should look at how other pages have solved this issue... BusterD (talk) 14:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at that now, I'm not sure how to fix this problem...perhaps there's a way to merge the two info-boxes together so both maps are running off the same sets of coordinates? Or perhaps we can remove the map from the 2nd info-box and only leave the NRHP info? 69.132.221.35 (talk) 19:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, using the info-box from the Statue of Liberty article as a base I've got one info-box with both boxes worth of info. I have no idea, however, how to add in another map elsewhere on the page without it causing the coordinates to double again so for now I've left it with the original info-box's map of NYC.  If either of you know how to do it feel free. :) 69.132.221.35 (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Requests for Comments
You already know what my comments are, but I'll repeat them here.

1. The 'Geography of Hudson County' category needs to be removed...again...for the same reasons as I've stated before and the reasons given by the 3rd and 4th opinions on that subject given by OhNoitsJamie and BusterD. It's not actually part of Hudson County.

2. I, again, suggest rewording that one sentence in the Geography and Access section. I think it should read, "Liberty Island is located completely within the boundaries of New Jersey, its built portions and docks falling under the jurisdiction of the City of New York  , of which they wholly part." The reason being that while the island is located on the other side of the state line it's not part of Jersey City and the current phrasing seems misleading.

3. If you're going to list the departure location for Liberty/Ellis Islands from New Jersey in the article (Communipaw Terminal) you should also list the Manhattan departure point as well (Castle Clinton). 69.132.221.35 (talk) 20:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Here we go again...

 * It doesn't belong in the Hudson County category, as I've said all along. It's part of New York County, and is surrounded by Hudson County without being a part of it.

 * Also saying it's within the municipal boundaries of Jersey City implies that it's part of Jersey City. But simply saying it's within the boundaries of New Jersey gives the same correct information without being misleading at all.  69.132.221.35 (talk) 21:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The request for comment was actually directed to other parties since you standpoint is clear. May I suggest that you allow others to comment on what is in recently wrttten version presented one hour ago without jumping all over it? It would be better to let others determine if they are being misled, as you suggest. I would imagine a reader of Wikipedia with moderate satisfactory English skills would understand that it is wholly part of New York, as written. To suppress information because you don't like it, especially in an article that involves the Statue of Liberty, seems rather ironic, given its symbolsm. Would you agree to let the version I've presented stay on the page for more than a few minutes see what others who may be interested have to say? The two comments above to which you refer are 1)based on a comparison of apples and oranges without making a point and 2) didn't comment on the inclusion in the category.

In the meantime, please consider the following:

 * Where in this statement of imply that it's part of Jersey City, when it clearly says it wholly part of New York City?? It is the straightforward description of the situation:

Liberty Island is located completely within the boundaries of Jersey City, New Jersey, its built portions and docks falling under the jurisdiction of the City of New York, of which they wholly part. The historical developments which led to this construction created the rare situation of exclave of one state, New York, being situated in another, New Jersey.

The category geography in Wikipedia covers different aspects of both physical and political geography. Liberty Island is a landform within Hudson County, a clear and undeniable part of its physical geography. Addtionally, it forms part of the political boundaries of the county. Can you please respond to this facts, which you have more than once acknowledged, other than by repeating it is not part of Hudson County, why in should not be included in the Category:Geography of Hudson County. You will note that the Category of Jersey City includes only it neighborhoods, due to the structure of the city/county and how the two overlap. (You do not need to repeat the story about part of again.)

Addtionally, I would suggest that you look at comparable situations whereby jursidiction and location (two competely separate concepts) are handled within Wikipedia. Do you happen to know of other places in in the United States with such a layered historical jurisdictional background that makes the island so unique? Details about it are very rich and should be included the article, don't you agree?

 * Enclave and exclave
 * Guantánamo Bay included in Category:Geography of Cuba
 * Vatican City included in Category:Geography of Rome
 * Baarle-Hertog
 * Baarle-Nassau
 * Dutch/Belgian municpalities with complex borders
 * Lesotho,landlocked nation
 * Berlin

Sure we could find lots of other examples. Djflem (talk) 22:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Djflem (talk) 22:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So, what you are saying is that on your talk page you told me to wait to comment until you published it in the article itself but now I am informed, by you, that this is only for others to comment.

 * Well I'm going to comment again anyway.

 * First of all, on the Jersey City issue my point is that people tend to skim articles a bit and by saying that Liberty Island is located within the "municipal boundaries of Jersey City, New Jersey" first you can give the false impression that the island is actually part of Jersey City. To instead change it to say the exact same thing by only saying it's within the boundaries of New Jersey removes this problem without any loss of practical information.  It is in no way suppressing information or censoring it as you seem to be implying.

 * On the second, and much longer fought, front about the Hudson County category I still stand by everything I have said on this subject up to this point. The category in question describes the geography of a solely political unit of which Liberty Island is not a part.  Therefore Liberty Island is not part of the geography of Hudson County, it is part of the geography of New York County.

 * Now, about your list of 'comparable situations' I have a few comments:

 * 1. While the Geography of Hudson County addresses a political location only the Geography of Cuba, on the other hand, covers both a political location (the country of Cuba) and a purely physical location (the island of Cuba).  So while Guantánamo Bay would not be part of the geography of the political Cuba it would be part of the physical island of Cuba which is independent of the political definition.

 * 2. As an outsider to the political reality that is the relationship between the Vatican City and Rome I can't really offer an informed opinion.  However from just glancing over the article I would support it's removal from the Geography of Rome category.  I would, however, leave that for the editors of those specific articles to decide.

 * 3. Baarle-Hertog and Baarle-Nassau are actually in my favor.  If you take a look at their categories they keep their sections separate.  Hertog is only listed as being part of the geography of Antwerp and Nassau is only listed as being part of North Brabant.

 * 4. Lesotho also works in my favor.  Despite being completely surrounded on all sides by South Africa it isn’t shoved into any 'South Africa' categories, only categories applying to the country of Lesotho itself.

 * 5. Lastly Berlin is a historical example that really has nothing to say that helps us in our disagreement.  By the time Wikipedia was formed Germany had been reunited and West Berlin was no longer an enclave of West Germany within the country of East Germany.

 * So, to make a long story short (too late!), I think Jersey City should be removed from that one sentence and that the article as a whole has no place in the Geography of Hudson County category. 69.132.221.35 (talk) 03:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Requests for feedback
The article has been listed, though this process doesn't always net results, or can take some time. Being sustantially rewritten it would be good to bring it through the mill for grammar, punc, readability, etc. References could use better formatting, access dates updated, perhaps a google map added. Let's see if there's a responseDjflem (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Ellis Island and Liberty Island
Is one the added part of the other? Is one the old name for the other? Are they just two names for the one Island? This sould be made clear, including which is which. şṗøʀĸ şṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ

To your undated question, I answer that those are two separate islands. In more recent times they are jointly administered as a US National Monument. Recent means that Ellis Island is no longer a port of entry for ships. It is a national monument marking the brief era when it was the place where many ships docked, and were carrying immigrants who settled in New York or other parts of the US, coming from Europe. - - 20:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The following coordinate fixes are needed for Liberty Island. The marker needs to be at 40°41'23.18"N 74° 2'44.49"W —76.105.145.143 (talk) 08:29, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌. The coordinates currently in the article are fine; in Bing and Google maps, for instance, the marker appears roughly in the center of the island, and further precision for a feature of this size is not necessary. (See WikiProject Geographical coordinates. Giving seconds of a degree to two decimal places, as you suggest, would be specifying a location down to about 25 centimeters—inappropriate for an island that's a few hundred meters in length and width.) Deor (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

New map
Not sure how the new map is an improvement for the general reader who might know where the Atlantic Ocean is on the old map, but has little to refer to in the new map and does not care about the NY-NJ conflict - yet knows it is in NY and sees no map that looks much like NY.--JimWae (talk) 00:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Archibald Kennedy
The article states "In 1746, Archibald Kennedy (later 11th Earl of Cassilis) purchased the island and a summer residence was established." - I know that this is a quote from the source at http://www.nps.gov/stli/historyculture/liberty-island-a-chronology.htm but I think they have the wrong Archibald Kennedy (who we will call Kennedy Jr). There's no firm date for his birth but it is listed generally as at or before 1736. I would doubt that 1736 is more than 10 years after his birth and so the purchase of a property by this man in 1746 seems unlikely. I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that the purchase was actually made by his father (Archibald Kennedy Sr) who was on the City Council and a collector of customs. The former house at 1 Broadway is associated with Kennedy Jr, and although some sites say it, or the lot on which it was built, was purchased in 1745/6 (which would suggest someone of an age to purchase the island too) it actually appears to have been acquired by Kennedy Jr in 1756. Of course this is a minor point. But someone may wish to do further research for accuracy's sake. 87.81.244.252 (talk) 01:09, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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File:Liberty Island photo Don Ramey Logan.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Liberty Island photo Don Ramey Logan.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 4, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-07-04. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Place names of Dutch origin
How is "Liberty Island" in Category:Place names of Dutch origin in New York, as on May 10? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:31, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Liberty Island Sunset.jpg

ferry slips?
"Two ferry slips are located at the southwestern side of Liberty Island." - when I look at the map, I see one in the East, one in the West, one (unused?) in the North, but none in SW 47.71.13.57 (talk) 07:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Removing categories
I am removing the categories relating to New Jersey and Hudson County, since the article makes it very clear that Liberty Island is neither in New Jersey in general nor Hudson County specifically. I am leaving the categories such as "New Jersey Register of Historic Places" that refer to Liberty and Ellis Island together. SixFourThree (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Can we work toward a consensus on this, so we don't end up in an edit war? Djflem? SixFourThree (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

 * I restored categories that are relevant. Liberty Island is very pertinent to the physical geography of both Jersey City and Hudson County, since the island is indeed within them. The political geography is such that it is an exclave of Manhattan within Jersey City, Hudson County, creating a political border. The NRHP nomination for Statue of Liberty National Monument, and Liberty Island, and Ellis Island was made in Hudson County, New Jersey. Djflem (talk) 20:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Uninhabited?
Population info is sorely missing, as far as I can see. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Public Hangings
Seems extraordinary that the second thing Bedloe's Island is most known for [ in Europe, at least ] is not mentioned in the article or talk.

In just one event  ---  Hicks  ---  12,000 merry-makers flooded the tiny island.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-cohen-death-penalty-executions-20190602-story.html

Claverhouse (talk) 19:17, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Topic in lead is not addressed in article
This sentence is in the lead: Part of the State of New York, the island is an exclave of the New York City borough of Manhattan, surrounded by the waters of Jersey City, New Jersey.

The History section discusses private ownership in colonial times with brief city ownership, and then federal ownership of the island. Then the National Park Service took control of operations once it came into existence, still federal. The concept of Liberty Island being an exclave of Manhattan or of the state of New York is not addressed or explained or given a date in the History section. I do not understand the notion of exclave to a state or a city and also federally owned and maintained. I hope a clear and concise explanation of that apparent conflict can be added in the History section, with no more detail added to the lead, except perhaps to mention the federal ownership. - - 20:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Prairieplant (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

 * This text, posted in a discussion above in 2010 by might be sufficient in the History section of this article about Liberty Island — ::“The Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island, federal property administered by the National Park Service, located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. A pact between New York and New Jersey, ratified by Congress in 1834, declared this issue."

 * It is apparently a quote from NPS, on a page in their website now a dead link, but I found it as the answer to FAQ here. If it is true that the gift shop on Liberty Island collects sales tax that goes to New York state, that might be added as evidence of “exclave”. I have not personally been in a gift shop on Liberty Island, so I do not know if that is true. Only mention it if it is true. - - 21:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The concept of Liberty Island being an exclave of Manhattan or of the state of New York is not addressed or explained or given a date in the History section. - Isn't this already addressed in the "Geography and access" section, though? That section describes both the dispute between New York and New Jersey, in which SCOTUS concluded in 1998 that the island is part of New York, while the water around it is wholly in New Jersey. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * What is a conflict? While federally owned the island is still part of the territory of the state it is in, like any national park. That the island is surrounded by the waters of one state while being territory of another (to the low water mark) makes it an exclave. Djflem (talk) 23:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Liberty Island