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Talk:Cowboy/Archive 1

Negative associations
Am I supposed to post new discussions at the top or bottom?

Isn't this is against Wikipedia's policies / rules?

"' Worldwide, the term 'cowboy' can be used as an adjective in a derogatory sense to describe someone who is violent, impulsive, or who behaves in a hot-headed and rash manner. For example, TIME Magazine had a cover article about George W. Bush's 'Cowboy Diplomacy,' and Bush has been described in European newspapers as a 'cowboy'. '"

I recall something about TIME Magazine writing it, but I did not see any sources cited. I am unsure how this is a neutral or relevant example. -Looks- more like a attempt to insult our current president. I think it is off topic. Anybody else? Dprabon 02:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * New topics are most easily created by clicking on that little "+" tab at the top. As far as "cowboy" as a negative term goes, it probably needs to stay.   We can probably find a dozen sources for the GWB=Cowboy thing, maybe add a tag as a reminder.  But remember, Wikipedia isn't just for Americans. it is worldwide.  The section is relevant, GWB HAS been called a "cowboy," and it is a useful example of how the phrase is used.  I suppose the paragraph could be softened up a little, but the bottom line is that it IS how the American president is described in some circles.  I can see some wisdom to deleting the word "violent," from that sentence.  That's a bit extreme for describing the use of "cowboy" in a negative sense.  Rash, impulsive and hot-headed is pretty much standard description of "being a little too cowboy," though--even in cowboy land where I live.  Montanabw 04:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cowboy Page
I changed this page from a redirect to a disambiguation page, so as to match the "cowgirl" page. The woman on top postion is also refered to as the "cowboy sex position" (ride him like a cowboy), and that page already redirected to woman on top.

21:40 7 Feb, 2005

 * Strong disagree. "Cowboy", the occupation is iconic, that it is also the name of a sexual position by those who use such jargon is extremely minor.  The cowhand article should actually be at "Cowboy".  Quill 23:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I checked the links and there is no cowboy position. The editor is either misinformed or intentionally vandalizing. I'll go ahead and change the redirect back. There does seem to be a need for a disambiguation page though; to talk about how the term is used in the UK--I'll probably call it Cowboy (disambiguation). Frank101 04:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Cowboy page is, it seems, still redirecting to Cowhand - as of 23 Feb 2005. I have not changed it to the disambiguation page that Frank101 mentions as I dont want to interfere with the discussion going on here - However I would like to agree with Frank about the need for disambiguation - especially in the light of the faux pas made by George W Bush on monday (21 feb 2005) when he stated that he 'needed a new cowboy' to Jacques Chirac at the UN conference in Geneva. This comment of G. W. Bush has caused a minor diplomatic incident, and been covered by most UK press as an outrageous insult - as it implies that Chirac is incompetent. Perhaps if there had been a wikipedia disambiguation page G.W's advisors might have realised what a stupid thing to say that was.

Cowboy Artists
What of the Cowboy Artists of America, an exclusive organization of artists dedicated to portraying the lifestyles of the cowboy and the American West, both as it was and as it endures?

True or false??
True or false: although this word is masculine in American English, it is generic in other kinds of English. Please suggest moving the article to the gender-neutral term Cowhand, with both Cowboy and Cowgirl being re-directs. Any objections?? 66.32.95.180 01:20, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I object. I think it would be a good idea to create the article Cowhand and the three should co-exist and link to each other appropriately.  Cowboy and Cowgirl are both worthy of individual articles and can be expanded.  I don't agree that the three should be merged.  - Tεx τ urε 04:23, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, currently cowgirl re-directs here. This certainly is sexist. 66.32.97.243 21:24, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. It seems to me that "Cowboy" refers to a popular and inaccurate conception (or icon, or characterization) of a person in the stereotypical "Wild West". Cows, I think, have nothing to do with it. Perhaps there should be two (or three) articles. "Cowhand" should be about the job of a cowhand in reality. "Cowboy" should be about the icon, noting that it originally refered to cowhands, but now is a sort of hyper-masculine, independent symbol. Sort of like neanderthal vs. caveman. Quadell (talk) 17:48, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * What does "hyper-masculine" mean?? 66.245.5.89 19:26, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Probably just a poor choice of words. "very masculine". Quadell (talk) 19:32, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

I for one would prefer a cowboy entry. for one thing the term 'cowboy' in the uk is iconic of a character from the wild west and the term cowhand is not at all applicable in the U.K. we have farmers that look after cows and cowherds but no cowhands. we do however have cowboys, they dress up in wild west style clothing and buy country and western music.

but my main objection to it is that it makes the addition of an entry for 'cowboy' (being an untrustworthy or unscrupulous tradesman in the U.K.)impossible. I considered wether this was simply a phrase and therefore not eligible but came to the conclusion that as there were more cowboy plumbers in the uk than cowboy enthusiasts and that both were equally recognisable to themselves and others, it probably should be in the pedia. as far as the reclassification being based on gender goes I agree with Quadell cowhand for the agricultural profession and cowboy for film genre, icon etc. after all John Wayne nor Yul Brynner were ever cowhands.

Cowhand is merely a subset of the diverse definition of Cowboy. Cowboys are more than cowhands, they are iconic legends of film, poets, presidents, farriers etc, to limit them to cowhand with redirects based on some gender issue detracts from the greater cultural and historic meaning of cowboy. --Loganis 19:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Subscript text Small Text == Unclear line ==

I think the clause "Poor weather and management in the 1880s lessened the need in America for ranching cowhands" is unclear. Why did poor weather lessen the need for cowhands? And was it poor management, or just management? Either way, how did that lessen the need? I would rewrite this myself, but I'm not well-versed on the topic and so I don't know what information the author wanted to convey.

Sorry. I mean to sign the Unclear line comment. Noob alert! --Macchiato 18:32, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sexism Revisited
That's an interesting discussion under True or False, above. For the record, I weigh in against empty 'political correctness'; I don't know of any English speakers who would refer to 'cowboys' (or girls!) as 'cowhands' in their regular parlance; in fact, I can think of only one example of a use of the word 'cowhand' in popular culture. I do think that this is handled very well in the article, though.

If you want to bring up sexism, however, how about the fact that the entry at cowgirl says more about a sexual position than it does about female cowhands? Quill 20:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * What do you think is a better gender-neutral term?? 66.32.248.241 23:09, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * A better gender-neutral term for what? (NOT trying to be sarcastic or funny)  If you meant for 'cowhand', I don't think that there is one and my point wasn't to find one;  I just meant that I didn't think 'cowhand' was in common use.  As I said, I think the treatment of the issue in the article is very well done.  Quill 06:07, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Page is poorly named
Cowhand is a poor name for this page. It violates the Naming conventions (common names)—"Use the most common name of a person or thing". I know of no cowboy who finds the term cowboy offensive, even Indian cowboys (see All Indian Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association). If no one objects, I will move this article and its talk page to Cowboy in a couple of weeks. -Frank101 17:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, good luck with that. It won't bother me, but based on the issues raised regarding sexism, above, some folks will probably object.  I'd read through the comments first--seems to me as though this might have existed at cowboy and then was moved. Quill 23:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually I did check the page history when I first happened across this article a few months back and thought it odd then. When I came across it again I did a bit more investigation and concluded it was improperly named. I don't feel that a consensus was reached in any case. Most talk appears to be about having two pages if a cowhand article is needed, not about moving the cowboy page here. A real indication that this page is wrongly named is that of the almost 200 article that point to this page, only two (2) are cowhand in the actual article and even those 2 probably mean cowboy. That's excepting the redirect pages of course. And more than 175 articles actually point to cowboy and are then redirected here. About the only time anyone actually says cowhand is to rhyme with Rio Grande. As for the sexism charge (prejudice on the basis of sex), someone who understands will have to clarify what that means as it applies to naming conventions at Wikipedia. The page has many errors that can't be fixed until it's determined if this page is to be about cowboys or about ranch workers in general. Frank101 16:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd support a move to Cowboy. violet/riga (t) 16:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I too support the move to cowboy

 * Well it's been three weeks and looks like a unanimous vote to move to Cowboy; although I had hoped for a larger quorum. Frank101 15:55, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Done. violet/riga (t) 18:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A North American Phenomenon
After Reading through the text on the Cowhand page I have added the words North American as the 2nd & 3rd words because it seems clear to me that the term is a regional one, but had not been identified as one.

In fact the subsequent paragraphs go to some lengths to give other regional variants for Mexico, Spain and even Australia. The previous text gave the impression that cowhands or cowboys is the default terminology for one who tends cattle, whereas this is actually only the North American term.

perhaps the disambiguation page when it arrives could also list the counterparts from other nations.

I appreciate that the phrase is a bit controversial atm. and that the term cowhand simply refers to "one who tends a ranch" etc in America - Whilst the term Cowboy is fairly well internationalised as a genre of fiction and film. As it stands I believe that Cowhand in the strict definition of the term outlined on the page is far more regional than the term Cowboy which unfortunately does not seem to have an entry. until it does, Cowhand should not be misleadingly referenced to be an international definition. DavidP 18:27, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Overuse of Hispanic stereotypes
The Iberians were never the only cattledrivers of the Old World. In every country environment of Europe, there existed mass farming and herding societies of which cowboy life was exemplary. To be specific in the case of Southern American cowboys, they were of the Scottish Borders persuasion. These are the guys we see in Western movies, copied by John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. There is a severe lack of respect for the Southern cowboy here, with a total need for a rewrite. Read about Reive, Border country and Border Reivers. These are the real American cowboys who settled the backcountry. They did NOT get their lifestyle from Hispanics, which is completely ignorant! Whilst Spaniards introduced the lifestyle to Mexican Indians, Britons introduced it to American Indians. I know when I hear a Scottish burr in the Southwest! You know, that accent the Northern Yanks make fun of them for? So, learn to respect the South and don't y'all call them Mexican! Learn about Robert Roy MacGregor and tell me he's a Mexican! POV in the article is based upon American Civil War prejudices. Don't forget the European Union nicknames Americans as cowboys, when they are referring to the Southern United States' presence in national politics. ScapegoatVandal 07:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * More on the pioneering role of the American cowboy definetly needs to be added. The European uses can also be affectionate. -Wikipedia-fan

New Mexico Cowboys
Donald Chavez is a respected author in this field (see Origins of the First American Cowboys). I read his work when I first started to add to this article. My idea was that this article was to be about the North American cowboy only, and that Vaquero, Paniola, and other Spanish based ranching traditions were subjects deserving separate articles (such as gaucho, llanero, and huaso have). As such I left much out about vaquero history and tradition and spoke mainly to the American migration into the West. And I still think a Vaquero article would be better than expanding this article to include all of their history and traditions. However, that is just my opinion. Mr. Chavez, if you get a Username, other editors would be able to talk to you on your discussion page. Or if you prefer to use an anonymous account, those interested will talk to you here. Frank101 2 July 2005 20:42 (UTC)

Racial origin?
A guy I know, who's black, told me that the word "cowboy" originally refered only to black people. White people with the same job were "cowpokes" or some other term I don't remember. This sounds like it could make sense, seeing as black men were routinely and demeaningly called "boy" until relatively recently, but I've never heard this claim before. Does anyone else have info on it? Can it be verified or debunked?

Hello, Yes this is very true. Many people don't know this fact. White men were never referred to as boy or Cowboy they were called Cattle Ranchers. The Black men who did the same thing were called CowBoy because the White Ranchers could not stand to be at the same level of a Black man. But the term Cowboys to refer to Black Cattle Ranchers was somehow phased out when Hollywood enterred the picture. I guess Cattle Rancher movies aren't as appealing as Cowboy movies. I will have to do further investigation as to when this occurred. But Wikipedia needs to do more research of its own. Nita November 7, 2006 1:23pm

Geography
The article talks of the "North American" cowboy but the word Canada is not in the article at all. It is really about US cowboys. That's fine since the cowboy as icon is strongly associated with the US. However, in Canada, especially Alberta we also have cowboys. This area was once home to open-land ranching and is still a major cattle-producing area. Infact, there are more cattle in Alberta than people. As well, Alberta Hosts the Calgary Stampede and the Canadian Finals Rodeo among others. Canada should at least get a mention.Kevlar67 13:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The main page states that calves are "branded or marked." I live and work on a cattle ranch in northern New Mexico (I suppose that makes me a "cowboy") and the state requires all cattle to be branded (which, I think, is true of most states in the USA): the "or" is therefore not quite correct for many parts of the USA.

Out of 365.25 days a year, a "cowboy" will work cows and calves about 70 days. In late winter and early spring of each year, the calves are ear-tagged and their gender noted; pregnant heifers who have never calved are separated and monitored several times a day and they are helped if they have problems calving. (This year we lost a five-year-old cow and her unborn calf when the calf got "stuck" and there were no people to help her: it is not only heifers who have calving problems.)

Then at the start of May the calves and cows are rounded up and separated: neighbor's cut out their cows (and of course the cow's calves follow) and drive them away to other ranches. The calves are then separated from the cows; the calves get branded on their left hips, and an ear tag crimped onto an ear: bullcalves get castrated and become steers. The cows get inoculated and/or get antibiotics. The bulls, if they will fit in the working chutes, also get inoculations. If pests are a problem, the cows and bulls get sprayed.

In mid-May the herd is driven to their spring and summer grazing. They stay there until fall, when it is once again time for fall round-up. Summer grazing is usually as high in altitude as the rancher can get them: above 8,000 feet is ideal since, with shade, cows and calves can live comfortably.

In the fall, the calves are separated from the cows; the bulls get sent to the bull pastures, the cows are sent to the fall and winter grazing areas, and the calves are loaded onto trailers and taken to the sale barn. Old cows and injured cows are some times loaded up and also taken to the sale barn; when that happens, heifers are selected from the year's calves and sent out with the cows to the fall and winter grazing areas as "replacements."

Every year or two the bulls are replaced for genetic diversity.

Most of a "cowboy's" time is spent mending fences, checking feed and water in the grazing areas, repairing ranch equipment, gardening, shoveling horse shit, grading dirt roads, fixing roofs, etc.... a "cowboy" they can go two or three months and not see a cow and still keep busy.

However, there is also a job known as a "Vaquero" or "calving hand" who spends all summer with the cows and calves, up on mesas or other lonely places. The Vaquero lives alone in a trailer, gets paid almost nothing, and has almost nothing to do but work cows and calves and mend fences. These "cowboys" are usually older men who have worked cattle much of their lives. --Desertphile 00:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Sir, I don’t need to wonder if I’m a cowboy or not and I’ll be damned if someone is going to say I “garden,” or “shovel dung,” or “repair fence." I imagine you’re pretty handy with a head shoot and a syringe and a four-wheeler, but some guys are still working like men and you’ve done them a disservice here by describing the absolute degeneration of the trade.

(HH, The Pitchfork, The Arapaho, The Spanish, The IL, The YP, 6666, ZX, Squaw Valley)

You sir, are a beef-farmer.

Cowpuncher
I'm not quite sure how to bring it into this article, but it seems Cowpuncher should me merged into this article. There's not much information there, but enough to at least make for a sentence or two. I've applied the proper tags according to WP:MM. - Chris 19:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Cowpuncher is a short-enough entry, and in my mind is just another word for cowboy, so I support this merge. Wisekwai 01:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * That sounds right, but a quick google points out there are other slang uses, listed on urbandictionary.com - however my network refused access (don't ask me why), so I can't check whether they actually make a difference. Fastifex 09:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Cowboy vs Knight ?
It seems to me the cowboy in US legends is equivalent to the knight in European legends. Any thoughts on that?Cameron Nedland 02:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Hardly- knighthood (the 'real' one, not honorary orders) was an elitist social caste of warriors, soon mostly noble born and/or enfieffed, serving s crack cavalry and/or endowed with lordships of their own; the legendary 'knights' as in the Arthurian legends are rather anachronistically renamed paladins, romantic heroes that have little in common with real knights. Cowboys on the other hand always were ranchhands, either restricted to the humble hard work of the grazing range, often in pioneer country far from 'organized' civilisation and grand feudal tradition. Fastifex 14:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about both legendary versions.Cameron Nedland 22:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

So what? Which legendary knight (just a rmaticized version, a bit more noble and heroic) is like a cowboy, a wouldn't be mortally insulted to be even compared to what he (or his author) would doubtlessly consider an ignorant peasant? Fastifex 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cameron on the premise that the cowboy, like the knight, is a highly romanticized and popular stereotype that is not entirely rooted in reality. This is why one is able to find few Western movies set in the last few decades and many that are set during the Old West. Like the knight, the cowboy is a fictional romanticization of times long since past. It is frequently argued over what a 'real' cowboy actually is, but the fact of the matter is that what people understand to be 'cowboy', that which they idealize and strive to be, is largely a fictional creation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_%28genre%29

Popular Culture
This section looks lost at the moment - suggest removing the image shack link to pictures rather than replacing it correctly formatted. The section seems to have been opened but with no text for some time, well I couldn't find any useful contribution in it, perhaps best removed altogether for now? 4wd 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)=4wd

Cheers - better now! 4wd 13 June 2006 (UTC)=4wd

A New Thread
Hi. The section on working cowboys is misinformed. On a “big outfit,” both cowpunchers South and buckaroos North – do NOT have individualy specialized tasks. they also very rarely do any feeding or fencing as that is the job of lowly “rosin jaws,” or farm crew.

A big outfit cowboy will spend his day riding circles (gathering and trailing cattle to fresh feed), working rodear (holding cattle in a group while one rider enters the herd and separates strays or sickly cattle or heifers about to calve, etc.), shoeing his string, roping and doctoring, roping and branding, roping for the hell of it ... running “shitters,” (mustangs) in the great basin so the B.L.M is reminded of its truck-bound incompetence; breaking colts, breaking legs, drinking hard, cashing 3 months of pay at the casino and blowing it all in one night at the whorehouse ... going out with the wagon ... fighting ... and most of all: a big outfit cowboy spends his day rejoicing in the absolute uniqueness and nobility of his craft.

Until that one day he finds himself on foot and dejected and lost in the modern necropolis, talking to space, and compared to people who cover themselves in corporate slogans and pervert and exploit what is not theirs. Until that time when every open space has been consumed by the goosestep of progress, and the ranches replaced by feedlots, the skilled and hearty replaced by opportunistic weaklings. Until that time when soft people dream of removing the death from life, comfortably numbed with i-pod/pop tart movie poster mind lollipops and downy dreams of unicorns. Until that time when humanity has eclipsed itself binary.

Use of the horse
I think it is worth pointing out that inherantly, a horse can go almost anywhere a cow can. It eats what a cow eats. Whereas a motor bike can get bogged or otherwise stuck where cows wont and it needs external supplies.Garrie 05:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Dubious: history section

 * "In the early 1600s, the Spanish crown, and later independent Mexico, began offering empresario grants in what would later be Texas to US citizens who agreed to become Mexican citizens and convert to Catholicism."

The passage raises some questions:

A Pattern O 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Where did they find US citizens in the early 1600's? ha ha
 * What were the stipulations before Mexico was independent (did they have to become Spanish citizens?)

 * Good point, wonder if that's a typo and should read "1800." I think Mexico became independent about 1821?  If you can find a source, go ahead and correct the date and anything else that's inaccurate.  I'm starting to clean up this article a bit too, but as I am personally more familiar with the post-civil war history of the cowboy, anyone who knows more about the Spanish stuff should feel free to dive in! I suggest we also start to try to improve the verifiability of this article by footnoting anything we add that can be attributed to a source.  Montanabw 19:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

vaqueros
los vaqueros were and are great people in the mexican heratige —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.160.125.139 (talk) 22:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Colorado
While this section i had proposed could definitely use a rewrite, I think there are a lot of important pieces that are not addressed thus far in your article, particularly the tools of the trade, and more information on how the role of cowboy varies greatly from place to place.

From the 1800's on Cowboys in the state of Colorado played a slightly different if more robust role. A highly skilled and talented worker, cowboys influenced by the geographical diversity and extremities of climate in Colorado needed to hone a variety of skills including but not limited to; hunting, carpentry, ranching & roping, leatherwork, Farrier, etc.

 * The same could be said of cowboys in Montana, where I live. The same could be said for cowboys in New Mexico or Arizona. Or Utah.  Or Idaho.  Or Oregon. Or Eastern Washington.  Or, for that matter, Alberta, Canada.  Seriously, "my state is unique" stuff would never end if we start talking about the details and be fair to everyone.  Next thing you know, folks from Georgia or Tennessee will want to weigh in because they have cows there, too.

 * But the bottom line is that if you read classic texts on the cowboy tradition, everyone else's stuff derived from the vaquero tradtions that entered the USA first via Texas and California then spread from there. Hawaii and Florida got their own sections because they were so culturally unique.

 * Your point is taken, though, that perhaps we could perhaps add a bit more about how most cowboys did need to learn and use these other skills, and maybe we could generally speak of climate adaptations and how the cowboy of the intermountain west had to deal with the fact that it gets colder than crap and you have to deal with snow up to your keester every winter. Maybe rewrite the above to omit specific mention of Colorado and throw it in here on the talk page, then when we have the kinks worked out it can go into the main article. ;-)

Tools
I'll think on how to word this, but I think their specific tools of their trade are as important to defining the cowboy as any other. I'll get back to ya. The page could reference some cowboy literature as well.

 * (Remember to sign your posts with four tildes)
 * Be sure to read this WHOLE article first, there is already a long section on saddles, horses, clothing, pickup trucks, etc...one problem is article length. This article is getting bloated, though maybe further reorganization of sections would do the trick. IMHO, the cowgirl section could be a whole different article, except that it was, once, and someone merged it back into this one, so not going there for now. Montanabw 06:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Literature? Scholarly works or the genre?  OH  NOOOOOOO!  Please, not Louis L'Amour!, though there may well be a place for a NEW article titled "Cowboy Literature" that could do this.  (If there isn't a Cowboy poetry article, there should be!). Preferably with a link to Wally McRae's classic, "Reincarnation." Montanabw 06:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Etymology
It seems very unlikely that "buckaroo"" would come from Arabic for at least two reasons. First, so much else of cowboy lingo is derivative of Spanish.  (Granted, some of Spanish comes from Arabic, but not vacca which is Latin). Second, the pronunciation of vaquero in Spanish, and especially, in the archaic Spanish which was prevalent in what is now the southwest US, was more like a "b" sound (baquero), very close indeed to the sound of buckaroo. The online etymology source is confused: they have bakara derived from vaquero!  That ref. should be dropped.  The second is inaccessible without a subscription, but the first page which displays gratis points to African languages and meanings which are not as close as vaquero clearly is. Tmangray 22:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

 * If the phrasing is unclear, it can be clarified...the point is that Arabic language came to Spain and influenced Spanish, Spanish language came to America and influenced many English words. Buckaroo is derived from vaquero, which appears to be derived both from Latin and Arabic words for cow.  Vacca in Latin and Bakara in Arabic.  If you are correct about the "B" pronounciation in old Spanish, then this is even more apt to be correct.  The online source is pretty light, it is more support for the other two, I'll take another look at it, though.  The articles in question are annoying in only showing the first page, but the Google search had the necessary information in context, and the article can be obtained from a public library as well.  The first one was arguing that the African words people thought applied to buckaroo were totally wrong and that the Spanish/Arabic origins were correct, the second article was basically a letter to the editor about the first article providing additional support.  One or the other mentions that the OED also gives the origin of Buckaroo as bakara and vaquero, not the African words.  The word Hackamore --> Jaquima --> Hakima is another example of an equine-related word that went from Arabic to Spanish to English.  It's actually all quite fascinating.  Arab culture also brought the Arab and Barb horses that crossed on the native Iberian animals to create some of the incredibly fine animals the Spanish were known for throughout the Middle Ages and Colonial era. the intermixture of the cultures is very interesting to track.  Montanabw 06:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, Spanish culture acquired a number of things from the Arabs, but the authoritative source for Spanish words, the Spanish Royal Academy, does not credit vacca to Arabic---and I might add, they are not slackers when it comes to giving etymological credit to Arabic when it is due. It might be that the Arabic word for cow derived from Latin as did the Spanish vaca.  It could very well have happened in Spain.  In view of the authority of the Spanish Royal Academy, I strongly suggest dropping the Arabic derivation. Tmangray 03:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, likewise the OED is usually the authority on the English language, but sometimes they get it just plain wrong when looking at American English words derived from things like Native American languages (for that matter, look how much someone screwed up "buckaroo," thinking it was African when it is actually Spanish). Given that Mexican Spanish and Castilian Spanish are not precisely the same, I feel it is acceptable to leave in both views, perhaps with language suggesting there are two views on the issue.  Keep in mind two additional factors: 1) vaqueros and cowboys were not real high on the social scale and that the popular venacular may have differed (as it does now) from what is considered "correct."  2) The Arab influence on Spanish horsemanship was considerable.  The animals, equipment, and riding style they brought to the Iberian peninsula all were nothing short of revolutionary; the way the two cultures merged and integrated is a fascinating study in itself--just comparing things like the la brida and la jineta forms of riding is fascinating.  But enough for now. The citation is verifiable, the reference may be debatable, but as long as the reader is fully informed, he or she can make up her own mind on the matter. Montanabw 19:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

 * What we need is someone or some source which deals with the Spanish Moorish dialect of Arabic. This dialect varied from standard Arabic which today has no such word even close to bakara meaning "cowherd".  Recall that the Arabs of the middle ages excelled at preserving and developing elements of the ancient Greek and Roman cultures.  You will, for example, find Arabic words relating to astronomy---names of stars for example---which are simply Arabized Greek names, taken directly from Greek texts. I suspect that the Arabs and their later Moorish cousins may have acquired the Latin word for cow and the cognate for cowherd from the Latin-speaking Iberians.  The OED does not seem helpful in this regard. Tmangray 02:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Someday, like Cinderella's prince, our expert will come. In the meantime, I guess just sourcing every statement will have to do. Cheers. Montanabw 16:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

 * However, the online etym. dictionary is not supportive of the point made as it has bakara coming FROM vaquero, which is probably correct. So it's deleted.  The extra stuff about Islamic rule in Spain is too POV in the context added.  The counterargument that Arabic was influenced by Greek and Latin as well, thus being the origin of any Arabic dialect word for cow, could be added, but that would overweigh the section.  I reduced the verbiage to a phrase at the end of a prev. sentence. Tmangray (talk) 22:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I"m OK with how you edited the article. It's well-phrased and gives some credit to Arab influence on horsemanship, which was my only real concern here.  (And the Arabs obtained many of their horsemanship skills from the Ancient Persians, but I digress...).   Montanabw (talk) 04:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Cowboys wearing jeans?
A number of times i have see things with cowboys wearing jeans yet jeans were created by levi's in 1853 how does that work out Gaogier

 * Not quite. See Jeans. -- Donald Albury 21:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Cowboys today wear various denim jeans, most often Wranglers than Levi's, actually, as Wranglers have a smooth seam on the inside leg that minimize rubbing when in a saddle. Levi's actually have a think inide seam that can rub the leg pretty bad. Prior to the development of the modern blue jean, they wore whatever heavy, durable fabric was available in a given time or culture. Montanabw (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What's the point?
It shouldn't be stated at the top that cowgirl redirects here. Don't you guys get it? There is already a dabnote on the section where cowgirl redirects.

The note at the top is misleading since there is not a mention on Cowboy (disambiguation) for cowgirl. And the note is basiclly saying "cowgirl redirects here for other uses see cowboy (disambiguation)." Again, what's the point? TheBlazikenMaster 13:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, there is probably room for grammatical improvement, but the point is to avoid confusion by folks looking for info on cowgirls. It keeps people from either re-starting an article on cowgirls (which was a separate article merged back into this one by consensus before my time), or from complaining here about why there isn't an article about cowgirls--it lets people looking for cowgirl info know they are at the right place.  The dabnote at the subsection may useful because of how the cowgirl dab page redirects straight to that subsection, but if someone types "cowgirl" in the search box, they will get the cowboy page.  There is a better argument to be made for tossing the dablink at the subsection header than the one at the top, if you really think that two are not needed.   Frankly, I see no harm to keeping them both, it's all about people being able to find things they want to find, IMHO. But we can yak about this some more.  Montanabw (talk) 21:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

 * It's still misleading. You see what I mean if you combine both the top lines into one sentence. I will change the note. TheBlazikenMaster 22:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope we can come on an agreement that my edit is much better than the older one. TheBlazikenMaster 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope we can come on an agreement that my edit is much better than the older one. TheBlazikenMaster 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh honestly, yes it was an improvement and nicely done. But you really need not be so defensive about the topic. Montanabw (talk) 04:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sensitive? I'm not sensitive at all, I just knew that the dabnote was misleading, so I had to do something. I'm not even watching this page, so I see no reason why I need to argue about this. TheBlazikenMaster 12:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed, and there is in fact no argument over the last change you made. But if you aren't watching this page, why are you replying? (grin).  Montanabw (talk) 23:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because I'm looking at my contributions. TheBlazikenMaster 10:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL! Well, have a good day and appreciate the way you came up with an appropriate solution for the dual disambig situation.  Montanabw (talk) 05:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Cowboys were no gunslingers
The 'Tools'-section in the article states firearms (Rifles & revolvers) as being part of a cowboy's tools. This is completely UNTRUE. 19 th century cowboys almost NEVER carried firearms (Except, perhaps, on loan, to have their photo taken) for two 'Down-to-earth' reasons.

- They were far too expensive (A Model '94 Winchester was worth more than a years' wages to a cowboy).

- It was far too dangerous to carry a sidearm of the day while riding a horse.

A 'Cartridge-type' revolver, though cheaper than a rifle, was still way beyond a simple cowboy's means. True: Many did own one of the older 'Cap-and-Ball' style revolvers that had become cheap 'Second hands' after the introduction of the brass cartridge weapons. But they had them stored safely away with, perhaps chambers loaded with powder and ball, NO caps installed! It would be madness to ride a horse with one of those (Horribly instable) guns - ready to fire - in your pack; let alone in a side-holster! (And no: The hammer resting on an empty chamber won't do: ANY chamber, loaded, with a percussion-cap installed on the funnel won't probably wait more than a day - while on horseback - to blow your foot off!)

ONE man in the group though usually HAD a Winchester (On loan from the cattle-owner) in a saddle-holster to shoot predators and defend the hurd in general 81.245.177.43 (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If you read the full context, you will note that the list of cowboy gear is for modern cowboys, note there is also a discussion of the pickup truck, which did not even exist in the 19th century. Further, just because not every cowboy could afford state of the art weapons, they knew how to use them, at no point does the article imply that all equipment is universally issued. (Similarly, not all modern cowboys necessarily own a pickup truck) You may also want to note that the cowboy photographed in 1888 is carrying both a pistol and a rifle scabbard, and note that both tools are carried in working-style equipment.  Black powder equipment predated the golden age of the open range.  For anyone working alone or in a small group, protection from predators - both human and animal - was an absolute necessity.  Further, your comments would be strengthened if you provide a reference source and spell check. (they call it a "herd").   Montanabw (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

 * After reading your remarks and visiting your personal pages I can only come to the conclusion that you are just like me: A Grumpy Old Man (Seen the BBC2-program?) using a MAC. One main difference though: You know about horses (I don't: You can't hunt nor eat them), I know about guns (You have to (Know a lot about them) these days if you want the right to own them in Belgium). And yes, indeed: English is not my mother's tongue. I feel that arguments are NOT strengthened by a spell check (As I was taught in law school). That was an - unnecessary - agressive remark, very UN-Wikipedia. Are you capable of writing sensible text in five languages (Albeit NOT synthactically correct?). Now to the arguments:

 * Black powder may have predated the golden age of the open range but by the 1880's the majority of weapons in use were still of the 'Cap and Ball'-type, due to the prohibitive cost of cartridges and cartridge-type weapons; only gunslingers and ranch-owners had the more modern weapons. Cap and Ball was only phased-out by the advent of modern - smokeless - powder in the early 20th century.

 * TRUE: The article does not state that guns were standard equipment of the 19th century cowboy; but because of popular belief that this WAS the case (And no, I have no refference for this bold statement) it might not be a bad idea to clear this in the article.

 * I did not deny that it WAS necessary for SOMEONE in the group to carry a firearm in order to defend the herd (See: Got it right now), not even denied that most of the men were carrying them, only stated that, at most, they were carrying them - NOT ready to fire - in their packs and not by their side.

 * And as for the photographs of 19th century cowboys (Usually taken when they had become old, famous and retired): My grandmother also put on her best attire (One or two t's?) when she had her photo taken and NOT what she wore in day to day life. I have no PROOF that cowboys had their weapons on loan (By the photographer?) when they had their photos taken (Probably even their clothes too), just stated that the photos PROVE nothing. Don't you ever think that photos tell the truth, more than a tale or a hearsay.87.64.161.33 (talk) 16:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

 * OK, so I apologize about the snarky spell check comment, but a knowledge of firearms doesn't make you an expert on cowboys. And I think you are still misreading the article - first off, the section you are upset about primarily deals with modern cowboys and their immediate predecessors at the end of the 19th century. Nonetheless, I do favor sources, and that is not a bad thing.  Cowboy history is largely anecdotal (some of the old timers were illiterate), but I'll stick my nose into the Montana Historical Society and see what I can dig up.  There may be room to clarify this, as apparently non-American west residents such as yourself must think that cowboys are an anachronism of the past (?) when there are still plenty of them today.  Keep in mind that the "cowboy" was a generalist, not a specialist.  A person in the late 1800's might work as a cowboy for a time, might do other work, such as military service or law enforcement, or market hunting, for a time.  And whether you owned a gun at the moment or not, you knew how to shoot.   There was no one single type of cowboy, cowboys ranged over an area larger than all of Europe with tremendous regional and ethnic variations.  I am not familiar with, for example, the traditions of, say, the Rio Grande Valley, but I can speak to the Northern Plains.  I'm a third generation Montanan who lived on a working diversified farm/ranch operation when I was a kid, complete with horses, branding, vaccinating, calving, etc. and while I'm not into guns particularly, I have lived all my life around them, we had a gun rack installed every pickup as soon as we got it, and so did everyone else.  The late 1800's here had plenty of state of the art firearms up here.

 * Also, like I say, not every modern cowboy is issued a pickup truck, either, they borrow the ones owned by the ranch (and if they do own their own rig, they don't WANT to take it out in the field to get beat up and have the paint job scratched, they WANT to use the ranch's rig so they can jump stumps to their heart's content and let the owner pay for the repairs.) I will go and dig up some sources, but may take a while, I have other stuff to deal with too.  I don't know if you will accept the evidence of Charlie Russell, who was noted for the authenticity of his paintings (not idealizing with fancy dress, but portraying the common man and working cowboy, which he himself had been for a time), and will look for other things but check out these:  Russell, 1905, "In without Knocking", Russell, 1896, cowboy with holstered pistol, note holstered gun,note holstered pistol, note holstered pistol, etc.  As I say, you may not accept these and I shall dig around for some text sources, but this is not on my "a" list of wikipedia priorities, may take a bit.    Montanabw (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Follow up, added source on weaponry, authored by a historian who worked for the BLM. Chapter from the book goes into extensive detail about all the makes and models of gun used in the 1880s and the evolution of preferences from one gun to another, far too much to include here, though I put in a summary that is a little more than on other equipment.  Essentially, rifles weren't easy to carry on horseback while actually working cattle, but pistols were, rifles were and are carried at other times.    Montanabw (talk) 04:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

helmets in competition
in this article it says that helmets are not allowed to be used in rodeo competitions. i read an article recently that said that helmets were starting to be introduced but many people prefer their hat to the helmet. also, i was watching a rodeo on tv and i saw a few people wearing helmets. is this article just not updated or is my information incorrect? OGOLD (talk) 22:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I'll check. I don't think it a question of "not allowed," its more a problem of "not required."  Also varies between sanctioning organizations, I think that Little Britches Rodeo may now require them, but I know for a fact that PBR does not.  But I'll review how things are worded and clarify if needed.  Montanabw (talk) 03:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cowboy/Archive 1


text:
User:Erik Garrison

Edit here, edit there. Spread knowledge about this knowledge.

Create.

Born and raised in Frankfort, Kentucky, I moved to the Boston area to attend school in 2002. Currently I am a resident of Davis Square, Somerville. I live in the Mirthaterra(/Adjacetarium), an apartment on the same floor as the world-famous Acetarium.

I have been a Wikipedian since before it had 100k articles. Watching it grow and prosper has been one of the most inspiring experiences of my life.

I am continually amazed by the amount of fun I have riding a bicycle.

I enjoy cooking. I also enjoy coffee, chocolate, and beer.

I am a research scientist in computational genomics. I spend my time working in the Marth Lab at Boston College.

I am a programmer by experience and necessity. I think that code (and research data) should be free, and have published a few snippets on my home page: hypervolu.me.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Erik Garrison


text:
Spotswood, Victoria

Spotswood is an inner-city suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 7 km south-west of Melbourne's Central Business District, located within the City of Hobsons Bay local government area. Spotswood recorded a population of 2,820 at the.

The suburb is bounded by the Newport–Sunshine freight railway line in the west, the West Gate Freeway in the north, the Yarra River in the east and the Burleigh Street in the south.

Spotswood was named after John Stewart Spotswood, who was one of the first farmers who owned much of the area in the 1840s.

History
Spottiswoode Post Office opened on 1 February 1882 and was renamed Spottiswood around 1903 and Spotswood around 1906.

Locality
Spotswood is known for the Victorian Science Museum, known as Scienceworks. Scienceworks is near the old sewage pumping station of Spotswood, constructed in 1897. This location was also used as the police headquarters in Mad Max and for the Academy Award-winning short film Harvie Krumpet.

Film
Spotswood was the setting of the eponymous Australian film, Spotswood, made in 1990–1991, released in 1992, starring Anthony Hopkins. Most of the scenes in Spotswood were shot in the suburb, but the moccasin factory is fictional and doesn't exist in Spotswood; the factory scenes in the movie were shot in the old sewage pumping station. Moccasins are a derogatory stereotype for the western suburbs of Melbourne; implying a lack of class, culture and sophistication even though they are commonly used elsewhere in Australia. The suburb was the main location in the clay animation short-film Harvie Krumpet.

Transport
Spotswood railway station is served by train services on the Werribee and Williamstown lines. Several bus routes also traverse the suburb.

Sport
The suburb has an Australian Rules football team competing in the Western Region Football League. The Spotswood Cricket Club also plays at McLean Reserve and competes in the Victorian Sub District Cricket Association. Golfers play at the course of the Westgate Golf Club on Creek Street.

title: Spotswood, Victoria


text:
Williamstown, Victoria

Williamstown is a suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 11 km south-west of Melbourne's Central Business District, located within the City of Hobsons Bay local government area. Williamstown recorded a population of 14,407 at the 2021 census.

Indigenous history
Indigenous Australians occupied the area long before maritime activities shaped the modern historical development of Williamstown. The Yalukit-willam clan of the Kulin nation were the first people to call Hobsons Bay home. They roamed the thin coastal strip from Werribee to Williamstown/Hobsons Bay.

The Yalukit-willam were one clan in a language group known as the Bunurong, which included six clans along the coast from the Werribee River, across the Mornington Peninsula, Western Port Bay to Wilsons Promontory.

The Yalukit-willam referred to the Williamstown area as "koort-boork-boork", a term meaning "clump of she-oaks", literally "She-oak, She-oak, many."

Colonial exploration and settlement

In November 1835, Captain Robson Coltish, master of the barque Norval sailed from Launceston, then crossing Bass Strait with a cargo of 500 sheep and 50 Hereford cattle which had been consigned by Dr. Alexander Thomson. After reaching the coastline of Port Phillip, Captain Coltish chose the area now known as Port Gellibrand, as a suitable place to unload his cargo.

When Governor Richard Bourke and Captain William Lonsdale visited the emergent settlement at Port Phillip in 1837, they both felt the main site of settlement at Point Gellibrand would emerge at the estuary and they renamed it William's Town after King William IV, then the English monarch. It served as the Settlement of Port Phillip's first anchorage and as the centre for port facilities until the late 19th century.

Williamstown was initially considered along with the sites that became known as Geelong and Melbourne for the capital of the new colony at Port Phillip. Although Williamstown offered excellent proximity to anchorage, Melbourne was ultimately chosen due to its abundance of fresh water. Wiliamstown remained an important port of the new colony, and the first streets of old William's Town were laid out in 1837 with that in mind.

The first land sales in the area took place in 1837. A 30-metre stone jetty was built by convict labour in 1838 where Gem Pier now stands. That same year a ferry service between Melbourne and Williamstown was established aboard the steamer Fire Fly. It was used to convey passengers, as well as sheep and cattle from Tasmania.

The first lighthouse, a wooden one with an oil-burning beacon at the top, was erected at Point Gellibrand in 1840. In that same year a water police superintendent was appointed to Williamstown. Williamstown remains the present-day home of the Victorian Water Police.

A bluestone lighthouse was built in 1849–50 to replace the original wooden one. It only operated as a lighthouse until 1860, when a Pile Light was built and anchored off Shelly Beach, after which it served as a time ball tower.

Victorian gold rush and wheat boom
Williamstown had been a primitive settlement until the Victorian gold rush of the 1850s, but after the gold seekers began to arrive, many from the tin mines of Cornwall, and many more from the Californian gold fields, the settlement's growth was phenomenal. The first Williamstown Post Office opened on 1 March 1850.

Australia's first telegraph line began operating between Melbourne and Williamstown on 3 March 1854. At this time, the timeball was moved to the Telegraph Station at Point Gellibrand. The Williamstown Chronicle, the first Victorian suburban newspaper, was established in 1854. The Williamstown Freemasons chapter was also established in 1854.

It went bankrupt, and this vital part of Victorian era infrastructure was only permanently established in the new colony by the Victorian Colonial Government. The first government line in Australia (1857) ran from Point Gellibrand to Spencer Street, at the western end of Melbourne's "golden mile".

Fort Gellibrand was built in 1855 during the Crimean War, to guard against a possible Russian invasion. It was still in use sixty years later for training new soldiers for World War I.

By 1858, Williamstown's two hotels had grown to 17. By 1864, there were 26. The Victoria Yacht Club was established in 1856 as yachting on Hobsons Bay became more popular. Also in 1856, a baths complex beside Williamstown Beach was built at the end of Garden Street. The baths were run by Mr Lillington, and was specified as 'ladies only' in 1859.

The first lightship to mark the reef off Point Gellibrand was the former barque New Constitution which the Government purchased in October 1856 for £1050. It took up station on 25 July 1859. In May 1860, tenders were called for construction of a new lightship off Point Gellibrand. The new lightship consisted of two white lights of equal height, 24 ft apart, and was shown from a temporary anchor in 4.5 fathoms of water. This lightship guarded Gellibrand's Point reef from 1861 until 1895.

Williamstown Post Office (the oldest post office building still standing in Victoria) and a Mechanics Institute were built in 1860. By 1861 Williamstown had 13 slips for boat repairs and building, and pier accommodation for 40 vessels. In 1864, the town boundaries of Williamstown were expanded to take in Newport and Spottiswoode, later to become Spotswood. Piped water from Yan Yean water supply subsequently arrived, allowing more rapid growth.

The Williamstown Racing Club, founded in 1864, was once one of the senior thoroughbred racing clubs in Victoria. Built in 1872, the Williamstown Racecourse, with its large and elaborately decorated grandstand facing out to the sea, was considered one of the finest in Australia. The Williamstown Football Club, an Australian rules football club was formed in 1864.

CSS Shenandoah incident of 1865
The Confederate States Navy warship CSS Shenandoah, which had successfully attacked several Union ships in the Indian Ocean, sailed into Hobsons Bay on the afternoon of 25 January 1865. Captain J. I. Waddell said he only wanted to put the ship onto the Williamstown slip for repairs, and to take on food and water. The Shenandoah was forced to wait while the Australians decided if letting the raider into their harbours violated their neutrality.

An 1871 hearing at the International Court in Geneva awarded damages of £820,000 against Britain to the US government for use of the port at Williamstown by the CSS Shenandoah.

Victoria's major cargo port
Between 1857 and 1889, the main railway workshops of the Victorian Railways were at Point Gellibrand, and at their height covered 85% of Point Gellibrand. Imported steam locomotives were assembled at the Williamstown Workshops. After 1889 the extensive workshops were moved to nearby Newport.

The Alfred Graving Dock is historically significant as the first graving dock in Victoria and the third in Australia at that time, for its role in the development of the shipping industry in Port Phillip, for its continuous use as a Dockyard since its completion and for association with William Wardell during his term as Inspector General of the Public Works Department.

Williamstown Baptist Church was officially founded in 1868, though a congregation had begun to form eight years earlier in response to an advertisement in the Williamstown Chronicle dated Saturday, 24 November 1860. Baptismal services were performed at the back beach at Williamstown from 1861 through to 1868, the first being performed 10 March 1861 by the Rev. David Rees of South Yarra. The Oddfellows' Hall was rented for services from December 1868. The Presbyterian schoolroom in Cecil Street was later used, followed by the Temperance Hall from April 1870. The Tabernacle, now the Church of Christ on Douglas Parade, was used after this. In January 1876 services reverted to the Oddfellows' Hall. In 1884 the Baptist Church building on Cecil Street was officially opened.

In 1873, the Royal Yacht Club of Victoria, founded in May 1853 as the Port Phillip Yacht Club, moved to its present site at 120 Nelson Place, adjacent to Gem Pier.

Williamstown North Primary School was established in 1874 and in that same year part of the market reserve was purchased from the Williamstown Council by the Education Department in order to build the Williamstown Primary School No. 1183.

The Williamstown CYMS football club was formed in 1886 and remains one of the oldest sporting clubs in Australia.

The Hobsons Bay Yacht Club, situated on Nelson Place at the end of Ferguson Street and adjacent to the pier.

The Yacht Club Hotel was built in 1892 at 207 Nelson Place, a site previously occupied by an iron-framed 'wooden' hotel called the Lord Clyde. It was owned by Carlton and West End Breweries, later the Carlton Brewery Ltd.

The Williamstown Hospital opened in 1894 when the community responded to the increasing risk of accidents from a busy port, the railway workshops and the growing industrial area of Newport, Spotswood and Footscray to establish Melbourne's first suburban public general hospital.

Williamstown Central Tennis Club is on a site at the corner of Ferguson Street and Melbourne Road.

The Williamstown Lacrosse Club was founded in 1898 at a meeting in the Williamstown Baptist Sunday School called by Arthur Whitley (son of the Minister). Arthur Whitley became the first Captain and Fred Scott the first secretary.

20th century
Williamstown Pier railway station was opened on 8 January 1905. The station existed primarily to serve the Williamstown docks precinct and was the terminus of the Williamstown line.

In 1906, one of the largest undertakings attempted by ship repairers in Australia was successfully accomplished at the Williamstown Dockyard. SS Peregrine, a 1,660 GRT vessel of the Howard Smith Line, was lengthened amidships by 40 ft. This was perhaps the first jumboising operation undertaken in Australia.

The Williamstown Hospital was expanded with the addition of the Male Ward in 1911 and the Female Ward in 1917.

Heidelberg School impressionist artist Walter Withers painted numerous landscapes of Williamstown around 1910, at a time when fellow Heidelberg School impressionist artist Frederick McCubbin was also painting the Williamstown landscape. Between 1909 and 1915, McCubbin visited Williamstown on numerous occasions and produced sketches and watercolours of the foreshore and the old shipyards. He also produced a major oil painting of the Williamstown docks in 1915.

Williamstown was proclaimed a City on 17 May 1919. Construction of the Williamstown Town Hall on Ferguson Street commenced a year earlier in 1918, but it was not officially opened until 1927.

The Williamstown and Newport Anglers Club was formed in 1933 and rented premises at 221 Nelson Place, moving next door to 223 in March 1935. In August 1939, the club was granted a site on the Esplanade and in 1941 a clubhouse was opened. A jetty and slipway were built the following year.

In 1934, the bluestone time ball tower (the former lighthouse) was extended by 30 ft with a circular brick tower on top. The extension was then painted with a coat of aluminium paint and it was re-established as a lighthouse due to the loss of singularity against the light of the City behind the Point Gellibrand Pile Light. It was electric, gave a green and red light, had a visibility of 15 nmi and operated as a lighthouse from 1934 to 1987.

Also in 1946, nine Williamstown residents met to form the Williamstown Little Theatre Movement. Through the 1950s and 1960s, Williamstown Little Theatre had several homes in Williamstown; from the Mechanic's Institute to the Williamstown Town Hall Supper Room and the former Missions to Seamen building in Nelson Place. In 1967 the theatre company moved into its current venue, a converted bakery on Albert Street.

In 1948, an electoral redistribution saw Williamstown included in the new Australian Federal electoral Division of Gellibrand, named after Joseph Tice Gellibrand (1786–1836). It was proclaimed in 1949 and was first won in that year by the Australian Labor Party candidate, John Michael Mullens. He held the seat until 1955.

The destroyer HMAS Anzac was commissioned at Williamstown Naval Dockyard on 14 March 1951 under the command of Commander John Plunkett-Cole RAN.

The Merrett Rifle Range at Williamstown was the rifle-shooting venue for the 1956 Olympic Games.

In May 1962, the City of Williamstown annexed 83 ha from the Shire of Altona.

The Pile Light anchored off Shelly Beach in 1860 was destroyed in 1976 when it was hit by the Melbourne Trader, a vessel of 7,000 tonnes. The force of the collision snapped the piles at waterline area, the light was sheared off its piles at water level, pushed 7 m sideways, and was left hanging precariously on several of the remaining piles.

The Urban Land Authority developed 60 hectares of the estate for housing and related commercial and community activities. Residential allotments were progressively released for sale from May 1991. The historic armoury building of the old rifle range was preserved, refurbished and is now as a funeral home set in a large formal garden.

The remaining 50 hectares was reserved for the protection of the surrounding environmentally sensitive area. This area, now known as the Jawbone Flora and Fauna Reserve consists of open grasslands for passive recreation, two wetland lakes, the saltmarsh and mangrove conservation area, Wader Beach and the Kororoit Creek.

Governance
Williamstown is within the Victorian electoral district of Williamstown. The 2007 by-election was triggered by the resignation of Steve Bracks as both Premier of Victoria and the Member for Williamstown. Wade Noonan successfully contested the election with 61.7% of the primary vote. The Liberal Party did not contest the seat in 2007.

The 2010 State Election saw a very different result with a huge swing against the government. The ALP's primary vote was 46.75% (compared to 61.7 in 2007), with the Liberal Party polling 32.5% of the primary vote. In the 2014 State Election, Noonan retained the seat with a primary vote of 44.6%.

Schools
Primary schools in the area include St. Mary's Primary School, Williamstown Primary School and Williamstown North Primary School.

State High schools in the area include Bayside Secondary College and Williamstown High School, (Pasco and Bayview Street Campuses). In 2008 Williamstown High School's new $11 million Bayview Street campus development won the Victorian Premier's Sustainability Award.

The Junior School at the Williamstown campus of Westbourne Grammar School is housed in the National Trust classified Victorian mansion "Monomeith" at 67 The Strand.

Places of worship

 * St Mary's Catholic Church (Cecil Street)
 * St Andrew's Presbyterian Church (Cecil Street).
 * Holy Trinity Anglican Church (Nelson Place). A Gothic Revival style bluestone church constructed to the designs of architect Leonard Terry between 1871 and 1874 to replace an imported prefabricated iron structure erected in the 1850s. It is distinguished by its two roof pitches, large west window, varied window forms and proportions generally. A five bay church with side aisles and nave, it was not erected to its planned size and the projected tower and spire were never built.
 * St John's Uniting Church, formerly Methodist (Electra Street).
 * Williamstown Gospel Mission Church (Electra Street)
 * St Stephen's Uniting Church (179 Melbourne Road)
 * Westgate Vineyard Church (meeting in the former Stevedore Street Uniting Church building) (57 Stevedore Street, east of Douglas Parade). A Gothic Revival style bluestone church designed by architect Joseph Schneider and built c1870. The proportions of the lantern and spire to its base and the detailing of the enframed storey are unusual. Westgate Vineyard Church moved from Yarraville to Williamtown in October 2011 and is part of the Association of Vineyard Churches in Australia
 * Church of Christ (Douglas Parade)

Economy
Representative of Williamstown's maritime history, large scale maritime industry dominates Williamstown's piers precinct and a maritime theme characterises the Nelson Place tourism precinct.

BAE Systems Australia's Marine division (formerly Tenix) has operated out of Williamstown dockyards for nearly 20 years, during which time it built Anzac-class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy, and completed the Canberra-class Landing Helicopter Dock ships.

Williamstown remains a working port, with the Point Gellibrand fuel terminal providing the port facility for the Altona Refinery operated by ExxonMobil at Altona North. When the refinery closes, it will continue to be used as an import terminal.

The Nelson Place tourism precinct offers, many catering for al fresco dining and some with views of Melbourne's city skyline through the masts of bobbing boats on the foreshore. Also located on Nelson Place is a diverse range of arts, crafts and other speciality shops.

Around the corner from Nelson Place there is a local retail sector operating on Ferguson Street and Douglas Parade. Ferguson Street has a mix of restaurants, cafes, two hotels and a range of retail shops. This mix of small retail businesses extends around the corner into Douglas Parade.

In Williamstown North, there remains the railway engineering industry. There is also a light-industrial/commercial park.

Culture
The Williamstown Festival, held each year in March/April, is the major Community Festival for the Western Region of Melbourne.

The Williamstown Literary Festival (held in May) is a popular local cultural event focusing on literature, drama and writing which presents established and emerging writers and literary figures. There is a strong focus on local participation, with the annual Peoples Choice awards showcasing aspiring local writers and poets.

A maritime museum is located on board the World War II minesweeping corvette HMAS Castlemaine, which is tied up at Gem Pier adjacent to Commonwealth Reserve.

Williamstown Little Theatre, open since 1946 and located at a converted bakery at 2–4 Albert Street, is one of the leading non-professional theatre companies in Melbourne.

Williamstown has also been used in a number of Australian television shows including The Henderson Kids with a number of local landmarks used.

Sports and recreation
There is a strong maritime feel to Williamstown, created by both the presence of the Williamstown Lighthouse, BAE Systems (ship building yard proprietors) and the many yachts floating on Hobsons Bay. The Williamstown Sailing Club, Royal Yacht Club of Victoria, Hobson's Bay Yacht Club, and Royal Victorian Motor Yacht Club are all located on Nelson Place.

The Williamstown Seagulls are a semi-professional Victorian Football League team that plays at Burbank Oval. They have won 13 VFA/VFL Premierships, and were also crowned League Championship Cup winners in 2011 and 2014.

Williamstown CYMS Football Club is the senior amateur football club of Williamstown. The CYs were formed in 1886 and currently field three teams in the Victorian Amateur Football Association (VAFA).

The Williamstown Juniors Football Club fielded 17 teams in the WRFL for 2007, the highest of any club. Notable AFL players from Williamstown Juniors are Daniel Giansiracusa of the Western Bulldogs, and Ben Davies of the Collingwood Magpies and North Melbourne Kangaroos.

Williamstown Cricket Club is the third oldest in Victoria having run continuously since 1852. The Club run four senior sides as well as a women's team and nine junior sides. Williamstown Cricket Club compete in the Victorian Sub-District Cricket Association and ended season 2006/07 as Premiership Champions.

Williamstown Imperial Cricket Club is located on the Fearon Reserve closest to Williamstown Beach with three senior sides holds the Williamstown & District Cricket Association record of 7 consecutive A Turf Premierships.

The Williamstown Magic Basketball Club and Williamstown Cannons Basketball Club both field many junior teams in the Altona Bay Basketball Association.

Williamstown is also home to a local soccer club, Williamstown SC. Established in 1981, Williamstown SC's home ground is JT Gray Reserve on Kororoit Creek Road. The First and Reserves Teams play in FFV's Men's State League and the club also has Juniors from 4-year-olds upwards and a Masters Team of over-35-year-olds.

Lacrosse, a minor sport in Australia, is also popular in Williamstown. Three clubs, the Williamstown Lacrosse Club, Williamstown Women's Lacrosse Club and Newport Ladies Lacrosse club all use the Fearon Reserve as their club house and home field.

For the 1956 Summer Olympics, the city hosted the pistol and rifle portion of the shooting and the shooting part of the modern pentathlon events.

International tennis star Mark Philippoussis grew up in Williamstown. Other notable sports stars who live in the area include Australian Football League players Chris Grant and Rohan Smith both of the Western Bulldogs in the Australian Football League.

The Hobsons Bay Coastal Trail runs through Williamstown and is a very popular trail with recreational users. A section of the trail is used by the Hobsons Bay Running Club for their monthly handicap.

Scouts Australia has a Sea Scout and a Scout group in Williamstown.

Transport
Williamstown is approximately 15 minutes by car from Melbourne via the West Gate Freeway or a 30-minute train journey from Flinders Street station. Ferries from Melbourne's Southgate Arts & Leisure Precinct take approximately 1-hour.

Williamstown is serviced by three railway stations: North Williamstown, Williamstown Beach and Williamstown, all on the Williamstown railway line.

There are three bus routes which connect Williamstown with surrounding suburbs.

The principal road connections from Williamstown are Kororoit Creek Road leading westward toward Altona and Laverton and two roads which head northward to Newport and Spotswood, namely Douglas Parade and Melbourne Road. The latter connects to central Melbourne via the West Gate Bridge.

A ferry service connects Williamstown's Gem Pier area with St Kilda and Port Melbourne. It operates 7 days a week in peak season, with a limited service in cooler months.

Notable residents

 * Steve Bracks AC, 44th Premier of Victoria and former MP for Williamstown
 * Bill Deller OAM, former Australian rules football umpire and director
 * Tony Dodemaide, cricketer and administrator
 * Richard Greaves, author and prospector
 * Richard Green, golfer and racing driver
 * Andy Griffiths, author
 * Brad Johnson, Western Bulldogs captain
 * Beatrice Kerr, swimmer and diver was born in Williamstown in 1887
 * Shaun Micallef, comedian and television presenter
 * Wade Noonan, politician and member for Williamstown
 * Mark Philippoussis, tennis player
 * Rohan Smith, Western Bulldogs footballer
 * Mark Viduka, Soccer Player, former Socceroos Captain
 * Scott West, Western Bulldogs footballer
 * Ralph Willis AO, former Member of the Federal Parliament, former Treasurer of Australia, and former Federal Member for Gellibrand

title: Williamstown, Victoria


text:
Roy Beggs Jr

Roy Beggs Jr (born 3 July 1962) is an Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) politician, serving as a Mid and East Antrim Councillor for the Larne Lough DEA since 2023. Beggs served as a Deputy Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly from 2011 to 2016, and 2020 to 2022. He was a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly (MLA) for East Antrim from 1998 to 2022.

Political career
Beggs was first elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly for East Antrim at the 1998 election, where he topped the poll.

At the 2001 local elections, he was elected to Carrickfergus Borough Council, representing the Knockagh District.

During this period, he had been elected as Chairman of the District Policing Partnership and vice-chairman of the Local Strategic Partnership and of the Community Safety Partnership.

Beggs was re-elected to the Assembly at the 2003 election, with 16.7% of first-preference votes.

At the 2007 Assembly election, Beggs was elected on the 12th count with 10.2% of first-preference votes.

Beggs did not seek re-election as a councillor in the 2011 local elections, but did retain his Assembly seat in the Assembly election held the same day.

Following this, Beggs was elected as a Deputy Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly. He served as a member of the Assembly's Social Development Committee, Public Accounts Committee, Health Committee, Environment Committee, Finance Committee, Deputy Chairman of the Agriculture Committee and Regional Development Committee. He is the Ulster Unionist Party spokesperson on Social Development.

Beggs was the Ulster Unionist candidate for East Antrim at the 2015 UK General election, where he came second to the incumbent MP, Sammy Wilson, of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP).

He lost his seat to Danny Donnelly of the Alliance Party in the 2022 Assembly election.

In the 2023 local elections, Beggs was elected onto Mid and East Antrim Borough Council as his party’s representative for the Larne Lough District.

Personal life
Beggs is the son of the politician Roy Beggs, who was the UUP Member of Parliament (MP) for East Antrim from 1983 to 2005.

In 2003, Beggs succeeded in having Irish rebel music removed from the in-flight entertainment of Aer Lingus airplanes. He complained of the "blatant promotion of militant, armed republicanism" on a music channel during a flight from Dublin to Boston after seeing that Derek Warfield had a radio channel dedicated to his music. Beggs, it was the same as "the speeches of Osama Bin Laden being played on a trans-Atlantic Arabian airline."

Aer Lingus removed the material from their flights stating: "It is something that should not have been on board and we removed it immediately we became aware of it."

title: Roy Beggs Jr


text:
Talk:Aconcagua

Height
IMO, the height of a mountain peak is one of the most interesting pieces of data, and thus IMO it should be one of the first things mentioned in the article, like "Cerro Aconcagua (xxxx m) is a mountain peak in ...". For some reason, height is not mentioned in any of the opening paragraphs, and it's the same with a lot of other articles on mountains, so I'm not going to just change this, but rather, I'll ask: why? 94.191.162.213 (talk) 15:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it a Volcano?
There are a number of sources on the net that either claim this mountain is an extinct volcano or of "volcanic origin". However a recent edit claims that "Aconcagua is NOT and never was a volcano". Is there any verification for this? Road Wizard 20:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I believe that the mountain consists of Miocene volcanic rocks, uplifted later to their present height. I've cited one source for it not being a volcano in our article; here is another site giving more detail. There is also some discussion of this in our Volcanic Seven Summits article. -- Avenue (talk) 23:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Nor does it look volcanic. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Puede ser un Volcan pero solo cuando haya un calentamiento de el sol muy fuerte ya que esta recubierto...Digamoslo nieve o hielo. :) 8D ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.158.230.221 (talk) 15:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation people ?
how the f*** do u pronounce this effinname ??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.243.201.242 (talk • contribs) 14:13, October 17, 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't do the IPA gibberish, but I can tell you in plain English: ah-cone-CAH-gwah. Colloquially, some also say ah-cone-CAH-wah, as if the "g" weren't there. Wahkeenah 14:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * not "colloquially" but the second pronounciation you give is the only correct one. 93.219.151.239 (talk) 15:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Alternate spelling?
Is Acongagua an alt spelling? worthy of a redirect? AHands (talk) 16:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

 * "Acongagua" gets 9,900 hits on Google (compared to 2,000,000+ for "Aconcagua"), so maybe yes. -- Spireguy (talk) 16:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It isn't... it's just a mistake... --B1mbo (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Why no "Mount"
Is there any particular reason why there is  Mount Everest  and  Mount Kilimanjaro  and Mount McKinley  and just plain Aconcagua which is not a "Mount".Eregli bob (talk) 12:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, because the other places belonged to the British Empire, and Argentina never did. 93.219.151.239 (talk) 15:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Bad math in the number of climbers (cited source has the same problem)
According to the text, most climbers are from the US, followed by Germany and the UK. However, the text also states that 25% of climbers are Argentineans. Logically, it follows that more than 25% of climbers are from the UK, Germany, and the US each. Together with the Argentineans, this adds up to more than 100%.

Clearly, Argentineans must be among the top three nationalities of climbers if the 25% is correct. However, since the cited source contains the same mistake, it is not clear whether they rank first or not.

I am going to change the text to say that the ranking is only among foreign climbers. 190.233.56.106 (talk) 14:06, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 06:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Prominence
This, and several other pages on Wikipedia, list the height of Aconcagua as the same as its prominence (height relative to surroundings/base). Looking at the map of the Andes mountain range that holds Aconcagua, there is no way that the base is at 0m elevation, and that the prominence is the same as its height. It looks like the base this should be measured from is about 4000M, giving it a fairly low prominence. Any experts in this area able to correct this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.156.92.46 (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

 * See prominence. It isn't the height above base, but the elevation difference between the summit and the lowest contour line that encircles the summit but doesn't contain a higher peak. Aconcagua is the highest peak in the Americas, so the lowest such contour line would be sea level. The value is correct. —hike395 (talk) 01:49, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Aconcagua Agentina Animation Video.gif

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Aconcagua Agentina Animation Video.gif

title: Talk:Aconcagua


text:
Talk:Royal Canadian Navy

Headline text
How can Maritime Command be strictly classified as the successor to the RCN as Canada's "senior service," since it is not a separate service but a command within the still-unified Canadian Forces?--MarshallStack 04:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Canadian Forces Administrative Orders gave precedence to MARCOM over other commands, and to the Naval Operations Branch over other personnel branches. Thus the Plugs maintain their precedence as Senior Service over the Pongos and Pigeons. --SigPig 11:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The Navy is always the "senior service" because army's could be raised and released through conscription, and wars fought with reservists, but the skills sailors (specifically navigators and later gunners), brought to the service were easily lost and not easily imparted. So Navy's were established as professions first, so those skills would not be lost. Within the profession of arms, the first "professionals" were in the Navy and the oldest profession (of arms) were sailors.  This is true in the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, and before it the Assyrian Empire. For example in the British Empire the first full-time service established was the Navy by Alfred the Great, centuries before a full-time army was stood up.
 * Interestingly within the Army, the oldest professions were established for the same reason (to preserve skills), and often had a Navy connection. For example, the oldest profession in the Army is Artillery followed by Sappers.  The Artillery in Britain and Canada were both originally trained by the Navy.  Canada's first Artillery school was established on the Royal Navy Base in Kingston Ontario, before Canada existed as a country (for example) because that's where the Navy Artillery experts were.
 * So to answer your question, the Navy is the senior service because it existed as a profession before any such profession existed in the Army. LinuxDude (talk)

one of the largest naval forces in the world?
Can someone explain the part about MARCOM being "one of the largest naval forces in the world" when it only has 36 ships and submarines?

Well, clearly that's not true. I have removed that statement. --72.136.242.25 16:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Make sure to remove the corresponding statement in Canadian Forces too. --Spoon! 08:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Colin Kenny quote
I removed the following from the section on the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships:

The CBC quoted Senator Colin Kenny, Chairman of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence :

Ha ha. That's sort of a funny joke, but I don't know if this page is the place for jokes. The quote doesn't provide much insight. Besides, the sentence immediately preceding this already summarizes the opposition to the project, so this is superfluous.

--Aardvark114 04:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The second place that also cites same reference look legitimate, so I re-added the reference itself (without, of course, adding the funny quote). Please be more carefull when removing references that are referenced more then once. — Shinhan  <  talk  > 13:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Marines
Do we have any marines or army regulars serving on our ships for boardings.

''No, Our Boarding Teams are manned mostly by Navy, with some Purple (Multi Element) trades allowed to join.

The Boarding Section is open to all trades'' LS

Actually, the RCN has recently (over 2 years ago) stood up a navy marines unit called the Maritime Tactical Operations Group. It is designed to be full time focused on non-compliant boardings and is attached to deployed ships for appropriate capability during operations. They are currently not under CANSOFCON unlike other Canadian SOF units but they use a similar selection and training programme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.30.239 (talk) 14:13, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Info box
This Page does not have on info box similar to pages like the US Navy, Danish Navy or Australian navy, as well as several other navy pages which include size, number of personnel, commander, etc. Could someone please change this to a more proper info box for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.71.235 (talk) 00:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why don't you do it? 24.68.148.215 (talk) 21:41, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Naval Ensign
Why is only the jack shown, dose Canada not have an ensign (which btw if the case is kind of bizarre)? Or is the ensign the exact same as the national flag like America?Zantorzi (talk) 05:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The national flag is used as the naval ensign. (flag examples here) - Jonathon A H (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The RCN used the White Ensign from 1910 to 1965, as an ensign. have added in in the appropriate spot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.135.93 (talk) 00:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And from 5/5/2013 the RCN has, again, a distinctive ensign: . Davidships (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Official name
The official name is just Maritime Command (MARCOM) but due to prevent its ambiguous term, cause it may refer to various topics, only on Wikpedia was add the sentence "Canadian Forces..." (1 result) vs. (307 results).--Nicola Romani (talk) 15:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

 * We generally use the article title for the Lead and infobox titles. "Canadian Forces Maritime Command" is fairly common, and not just a WP construct. - BilCat (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Btw, (10,600 results). - BilCat (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Of course "Canadian Navy" is definitely better (and also my favorite name), but in Canada, since 1968, there is just one "directorate" (the Canadian Forces) under wich are placed 7 Commands, and MARCOM or Maritime Command, is just its name. Here on WP you can also move the page to Maritime Command (Canadian Forces) but "graphically" this version is obviously better, no one will use parentheses for the Lead and infobox titles even if article title use it, e.g. Warrant Officer (United States). Anyway the official name is just as stated above on my previous post. --Nicola Romani (talk) 16:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Royal Canadian Navy
Canadian Forces Maritime Command is expected to change its name back to Royal Canadian Navy tomorrow, according to the The Chronicle Herald. More information at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Royal Canadian Navy already exists. Should the two be merged? Cheers, CharlieEchoTango 19:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, and the announcement will be made tomorrow. I have no opinion on whether merger would be appropriate, but if it is not, it might make sense to move the article currently at RCN to Royal Canadian Navy (historical) and this article to Royal Canadian Navy. -Rrius (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like what has been done with the two incarnations of the Winnipeg Jets. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. There is a centralized discussion here. Cheers - CharlieEchoTango 21:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. ukexpat (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Canadian Forces Maritime Command → Royal Canadian Navy – See the discussion above and the discussion on the WikiProjet Military history. There is still a debate on how to deal with the old RCN and if we should incorporate all the info on the same article or not, but everybody agree that this should be the main article. Amqui (talk) 13:22, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Chief of the Maritime Staff
Re this edit and related page move. Previously the commander was Commander Maritime Command and Chief of the Maritime Staff; obviously the former changed to Commander Royal Canadian Navy, but the latter always took precedence over Comd RCN or Comd MARCOM since not all of the maritime staff are from the RCN (and not all RCN staff are maritime staff, eg CANOSCOM, CANSOFCOM) in the post-1968 unified structure. Therefore it doesn't make sense to me to move Chief of the Maritime Staff to Commander Royal Canadian Navy, since as far as I know the commander's position wasn't simplified to just Commander RCN and his primary role is still Chief of the Maritime Staff. Also wrote on the editor's talk page, and will wait a while before reverting. Sorry if unclear. Cheers, — CharlieEchoTango  — 18:15, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Third-largest navy at the end of WW2?
The article states that at the end of WW2 the RCN was the fifth largest navy in the world with around 300 vessels. But according to Veterans Affairs Canada, it was the third largest navy with 434 vessels: « At the end of the Second World War, Canada had the third-largest navy in the world with 95,000 men and women in uniform, and 434 commissioned vessels including cruisers, destroyers, frigates, corvettes and auxiliaries. » This site also claims it was the third largest Allied Navy. So there seems to be a bit of confusion about the size of the RCN at the end of WW2. Could someone with more experience comfirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReferenceKnight (talk • contribs) 18:04, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

100th Anniversary of the Canadian Navy
Should '100th Anniversary of the Canadian Navy' be mentioned in the "Memorials" section? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 03:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Ordinary Seaman
Where does this notion of "Ordinary Seaman (Basic)" and "Ordinary Seaman (Recruit)" come from? Neither of these terms is in use in the RCN, nor do they appear in the National Defence Act. The rank is simply "Ordinary Seaman", which a sailor has from the moment he or she swears the oath and is enroled in the Canadian Forces until promotion to Able Seaman. Z57N (talk) 00:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ordinary Seaman (Recruit) [OS(R)] is used at CFLRS.  ¥  Jacky Tar  21:27, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Now that the Navy's switched to Sailor 3rd Cl (S3), Sailor 2nd Cl (S2), and Sailor 1st Cl (S1), I would venture to guess that at CFLRS, recruits are S3(R). Will see if I can find out from some wingers posted there.  ¥  Jacky Tar  04:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Queen's Colour vs King's Colour
Changed the name in the info box back, as the graphic is of the Queen's Colour. There will no doubt be a King's Colour for the RCN, and very likely it will be similar to the Queen's colour. However the one shown is NOT the King's Colour, nor are they generic. Also added a small note referencing this at the end of section 5.1, Colours. More generally, it's entirely possible most of the Canadian Forces' unit insignia will change from the St. Edwards Crown of Her Majesty to the Tudor Crown that Charles III has chosen to use, and that George VI used. This may even wind up affecting any rank insignia that incorporates crowns (RCN PO1, CPO2, possibly CPO1 if Canada's Coat of Arms changes; also Army & RCAF ranks for WO, MWO, possibly CWO; also Maj, LCol, Col.)  ¥  Jacky Tar  04:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

68 Service Ships?
Running through the service ships known to me I counted 50: 12 Halifax Class Frigates 12 Kingston Class MCDVs 4 Victoria Class Subs 3 Dewolf Class APVs (2 in service, 1 delivered) 8 Orca Class Patrol Craft 5 Glen Class Tugs 5 Ville Class Tugs 1 Supply Ship on lease (Asterix)

What are the other 18 vessels being counted? 134.41.122.40 (talk) 18:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Chain of command in infobox
The list of "commanders" in the infoboxes for RCN, CA, and RCAF should structured in parallel, but currently they are all different. Also notable in its omission is the chief of the defence staff in all 3 infoboxes. Currently the RCN lists: commander in chief · prime minister · minister of national defence · commander RCN · deputy commander RCN · CPO RCN CA lists: commander in chief · commander CA · deputy commander CA · army sgt maj RCAF lists: commander in chief · minister of national defence · commander RCAF · deputy commander RCAF · CWO of air force The chief of the defence staff should be added to all three, but I'm wondering if we should cut down the list of commanders to a lower number, and have the three lists structured the same. My suggestion: commander in chief · minister of national defence · chief of the defence staff · commander RCN/CA/RCAF Thoughts? Indefatigable (talk) 03:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I have rethought my proposal. I now recommend we that we remove the chain of commanders above the RCN level, and just have: commander RCN/CA/RCAF · deputy commander RCN/CA/RCAF · CPO/sgt maj/CWO This would be analogous to the common practice for brigades, battalions, ships, squadrons, etc. The RCN etc are not military services as in the UK and US armed forces; they are merely major commands within the unified military service called the Canadian Armed Forces. Indefatigable (talk) Indefatigable (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Since there has been no discussion, I'll go ahead with my plan. Indefatigable (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

DeWolf Class
The article lead says that there are two DeWolf class patrol vessels in service; but the Warships section says there are four. Which is correct? Mediatech492 (talk) 10:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Four have been delivered to the navy. One of them, William Hall, is fitting out before commissioning.  The others are at different stages of commissioned activity.  HMCS Max Bernays has just been commissioned.  HMCS Margaret Brooke was sailing in the Caribbean as recently as 5 May 24.  I belive that HMCS Harry DeWolf is in service but currently alongside in Halifax. Bluenose Gunner (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Royal Canadian Navy