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Buckie

Buckie (Bucaidh ) is a burgh town (defined as such in 1888) on the Moray Firth coast of Scotland. Historically in Banffshire, Buckie was the largest town in the county until the administrative area was abolished in 1975. The town is the third largest in the Moray council area after Elgin and Forres and within the definitions of statistics published by the General Register Office for Scotland was ranked at number 75 in the list of population estimates for settlements in Scotland mid-year 2006. Buckie is virtually equidistant to Banff to the east and Elgin to the west, with both approximately 17 mi distant whilst Keith lies 12 mi to the south by road.

Etymology
The origin of the name of the town is not entirely clear. Although the folk etymology is that Buckie is named after a seashell (genus buccinum) the reality is that the shared marine background is a coincidence. The name Buckie would not have originally identified a place immediately adjacent to the sea, so alternative etymological sources are more likely. Unfortunately, in one of the earlier books on Scottish place names, Buckie on the Moray Firth does not receive a mention. However, a Buckie in the Balquhidder district of Perthshire is described as being derived from the Gaelic word boc or Welsh bowk, both meaning a buck or male deer. This suggests the meaning of Buckie as place where male deer gather, most likely referring to the valley of what is known today as the Buckie Burn.

History
A 1936 article by a Dr Cramond discusses the earliest mention of Buckie dating from 1362, when the lands of Rove Bucky in le Awne were leased by John Hay to John Young, vicar of Fordyce. The Hays, from whom the Rannes family were descended, had acquired through Royal favour a footing in the district at a still earlier age when the greater part from the Deveron to the Spey was embraced in the Forest of Awne or Ainie (now Enzie) and the Boyne. Rove Bucky is far from understandable and could be a scribe's error and should perhaps read Over Bucky as occurs in older title deeds, in distinction to Nether Buckie. It has been spelt in different ways, Robert Burns called it Bucky in his poem Lady Onlie - Lady Lucky. This was the form at the end of the 18th century.

Robert Gordon's map ''Aberdeen, Banf, Murrey &c. to Inverness: [and] Fra the north water to Ross'', which is dated at some time between 1636 and 1652, shows Buckie in its own right as a community some small distance from the coast with the community of Freuchny sitting nearer the shore to the north. Robert Gordon and Joan Blaeu's Duo Vicecomitatus Aberdonia & Banfia, una cum Regionibus & terrarum tractibus sub iis comprehensis published in Amsterdam 1654 clearly shows Buckie and Freuchny with the addition of Nether Buckie. James Robertson's Topographical and military map of the counties of Aberdeen, Banff and Kincardine, London, 1822 seems geographically inaccurate in its relative positioning of Buckie, Nether Buckie and Freuchny, but is significant in that the new label of Rotten Slough is given equal importance in terms of size of community with Buckie; however, in Thomson’s Atlas of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1832 Rotten Slough is fairly unimportant by size so one of these two reference publications is distorted, probably the former. This community, which would later come to be known as Portessie, was reportedly formed when "Porteasie.....became a fishing station in 1727, when 5 houses were built by the proprietor of Rannes for the accommodation of the original fishers from Findhorn" and the 1731 Rathven Session Minutes shows that Rotten Slough already has a population of 40 with ten households and subsequent minutes show the community growing until the 1791 entry records 177 souls in 44 households.

By the time of the publication of the 1891 First Series Ordnance Survey Map of Elgin, which reflects the 1866-1870 survey, Buckie has developed markedly with areas named Seatown, Newtown, Ianstown and Portessie. The 19th century OS Six Inch series further shows Gordonsburgh, Craig Bow and Strathlene. The 1910 OS 3rd Edition one-inch map of Elgin has settled on the name of Ianstown and all other parts of Buckie are named as they are known today but then, just to confuse the issue, the Bartholomew Survey Atlas of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1912 uses the label Ianston. The conflicting nomenclature continued with the issue of the 1929 OS One-inch Popular edition and the 1933 JG Bartholomew & Son, Half-inch to the Mile maps of Scotland.

Layout today
Geographically, the town is, broadly speaking, laid out in a linear fashion, following the coastline. There is a lower shore area and an upper area. Fundamentally Buckie itself is the central part of the community lying between the Victoria Bridge under which flows the Buckie Burn at the western end of West Church Street, the eastern end of Cluny Harbour and above the shore area. To the west of Victoria Bridge and the Buckie Burn is Buckpool, which was formerly known as Nether Buckie, and on the shoreline, west of Cluny Harbour, between Baron Street and the Buckie Burn mouth, there is the Yardie. Immediately above the Yardie on the Buckie side of the burn is the Seatown. To the west of the Yardie is Harbourhead. To the east of Cluny Harbour lie Ianstown, Gordonsburgh and Portessie also known locally as The Sloch (historically The Rotten Slough), which reaches towards Strathlene. These communities were, to all intents and purposes, separate fishing settlements that gradually merged over the course of time. A new town was laid out above the shoreline in the 19th century and this is the rump of Buckie.

Population and demography
The 2011 UK Census reported that, from Buckie's total population, 88.7% were born in Scotland with the largest single minority being those born in England (7.5%). In terms of declared ethnic allegiance the largest was "White Scottish", at 90.5%.

Source: https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/ Scotland's Census, 2011 Census data

National governments
Buckie is in the Moray (Westminster) constituency of the UK Parliament, which returned the Scottish Conservative Douglas Ross as its Member of Parliament (MP) in 2019, after winning the seat in 2017.

Buckie is in the Banffshire and Buchan Coast constituency of the Scottish Parliament. The seat was represented by SNP MSP Stewart Stevenson from 2011 until 2021 and by SNP MSP Karen Adam since the Scottish Parliament election of 2021. The constituency is also part of the North East Scotland electoral region.

Local government
Following the reorganisation of local government in Scotland, Buckie now has 1 multi-member ward with 3 councillors.

Additionally, there is the Buckie Community Council, which allows for 12 members to be elected or co-opted.

Road
Buckie is situated near the A98 primary road, which connects Fraserburgh with Fochabers at the junction of the A96. The A98 runs east–west, approximately parallel with the southern edge of Buckie. The A942 starts at "The Toll Bar" and runs due north from the A98 into Buckie becoming High Street and then North High Street before swinging east as Low Street, along the harbour as Commercial Road and onwards as Rathburn Street, Reidhaven Street and finally Great Eastern Road out of town towards Findochty and Portknockie. Where the A942 swings east, the A990 commences to the west and heads past The Yardie and onwards as Main Street and then Great Western Road towards Portgordon. The nearest railway station is at Keith serving the Aberdeen-Inverness line. Bus services operate to Aberdeen, Macduff and Elgin. There was a connecting service to Keith railway station, which was synchronised with rail times but the service was withdrawn when Moray Council funding ceased in late September 2013. Local bus services are operated by Stagecoach.

Golden Age of the Railway
Historically, Buckie had extensive rail connections with the rest of North East Scotland. The Great North of Scotland Railway was laid out in the 1850s and served the Aberdeen to Inverness route until it was decommissioned in the late 1960s. This construction did not reach the coast until Nairn and various branch lines were built to link the peripheral areas to the mainline service.

In 1923, GNSR was absorbed into the London and North Eastern Railway before that itself was nationalised along with all other UK rail services into British Rail in 1948.

The Moray Coast Railway was also constructed by GNSR and the part of it that served Buckie, opening in 1886, ran from Cairnie near Keith down to the coast at Portsoy and then swung west through Cullen, Portknockie and Findochty reaching its first stop in Buckie at Portessie. This station was built directly on top of the cliff and commanded panoramic views over the Strathlene House Hotel, Strathlene outdoor swimming pool and beach and onward to the offshore rocks of Craigenroan and the Moray Firth. Indeed, a footpath led from the station down to the hotel and beach area and a visit to Strathlene was a popular day out by train before and during World War II. In 1936 Buckie Town Council proposed to change the name of the station to Strathlene but LNER declined suggesting instead that the Town Council erect their own large sign on Strathlene Golf Course that could be seen from the train. A retired passenger carriage was available for rent at the station. 1 mi to the west was Buckie Station, which was located below the cliff and virtually across the street from Buckie Fish Market. To reach Buckie Station the railway gently descended to the west from the heights of Portessie on an embankment to the foot of the cliff whilst the parallel road lying adjacent to the track on its southern flank rose to the west up the McLaren's Brae end of East Church Street to the town centre. 1 mi further west stood Buckpool Station and from there the line continued due west to Portgordon and onward to Spey Bay before crossing the River Spey and swinging inland to rejoin the mainline service at Elgin. Buckie was served by these three railway stations until 1968 when the line was finally closed.

It is possible to walk, or cycle along the route of the old railway from Cullen to Garmouth. This walk takes in the magnificent Cullen viaduct from which fine views of that town can be had and, at the other end, the Spey Bridge.

Portessie was also terminus to the Buckie and Portessie Branch of the Highland Railway. This line was opened in 1884 and provided a direct rail link "up the hill" to Keith. The line ran westwards from Portessie but remained on top of the cliff, passing the Pot O' Linn, skirting the rear of Cliff Terrace and crossing Harbour Street then swinging south contributing to the curve of Mill Crescent to stop at Buckie Highland Station before continuing up present day Millbank Terrace towards Rathven. Until recent years this latter section was used as a footpath and commonly known as "The Highland Line" – it was quite possible to cycle from Millbank Terrace to the site of Rathven Station as late as the 1970s and even early 1980s – but housing development and farming interests have contributed to the virtual closure of this popular route to Peter Fair Park. The line passed under a road bridge of what is now the A98, which has long since been demolished, and then turned westwards again towards Drybridge and made another sweep to the south as it passed Enzie and then headed uphill, over the Enzie Braes, to Aultmore and on to Keith. This link was relatively short-lived and was closed in 1915 except for a freight service between Buckie and Portessie, which was closed in 1944.

As a port
Cluny Harbour has long been the industrial centre of Buckie. This port was built by the Cluny family in 1877 to replace the town's first stone harbour in Nether Buckie, which was constructed in 1857 1 mi or so to the west but had a tendency to silt up and become unusable. The Laird of Letterfourie had contributed £5,000 of the construction costs at Nether Buckie but the main investor with the balance of £10,000 was the Board of Fisheries. The engineers were D.& T. Stevenson of Edinburgh, the family firm of the author Robert Louis Stevenson. It was and remains a very sturdily built edifice with the main walls of considerable thickness being built of quartzite, quarried locally at Strathlene, capped with a very hard type of sandstone, which was also used to form the walls at the entrance and of the harbour proper. As regards stability the harbour has remained a monument to engineering science with very little maintenance ever being necessary. It had a design fault, however, in that the entrance opened to the north east and was subject to infill with shingle, moving westwards by longshore drift. Later known as Buckpool Harbour, this earlier port became something of an eyesore and eventually the silted basin became overgrown and dangerously swampy. The decision was taken to fill in the basin and this work was undertaken in the 1970s. The resulting park includes a pebble beach and the original quartzite harbour walls remain completely intact.

Industry
Once a thriving fishing and shipbuilding port, these industries have declined. Though Peterhead and Aberdeen are now more often associated with the fishing industry in northeast Scotland, in 1913 Buckie had the largest steam drifter fleet in Scotland. Food processing remains important, with large fish factories and smoke houses found around the harbour. Buckie can properly be regarded as one of the main points of origin of the modern Scottish shellfish industry. A Mancunian, Charles Eckersley, who moved to Buckie in the 1950s and started trading as a fish merchant, noticed that many of the varieties of shellfish that were regarded as economically useless by Buckie fishing vessels (prawns, scallops etc.) were in fact the same species that he had enjoyed whilst completing his National Service in Palestine. He seized the opportunity to exploit this gap in the market and he built a thriving processing and packing business, which eventually expanded to include factories as far afield as Barcelona and Alicante in Spain.

The Buckie Shipyard now repairs and refits RNLI lifeboats for much of the United Kingdom and operates service contracts for various other clients including the MoD as well as building new vessels but boatbuilding was a major industry in the town for decades. Until recent years there were three quite separate boatyards building traditional wooden clinker fishing vessels. Leaving Cluny Square and heading down North High Street, also locally known as the Bowling Green Brae, the view of the sea would have been interrupted by a huge grey corrugated iron shed. This was Thomsons and vessels were launched directly into the Moray Firth from a slipway. Heading east to Cluny Harbour it would have been impossible to miss Herd and Mackenzie on the fourth or lifeboat basin of the harbour. Directly behind their large sheds and across Blantyre Terrace was Jones with their private harbour into which they launched their vessels. Thomsons is gone but the premises of Herd and McKenzie and Jones are part of the modern day Buckie Shipyard. It was Herd and McKenzie, a firm with its roots in Dunbartonshire from where Messrs Herd and Mackenzie sortied north, which built and launched the training schooner Captain Scott in 1972. At the time of its launch, this vessel was the largest of its type in the world. In earlier years, there were further boat construction operations dotted along the shoreline from The Yardie to Ianstown and on to Portessie but these had mostly been amalgamated into the three main firms or had gone out of business by the interwar period.

A significant part of the population works in the offshore oil industry although Buckie somewhat missed the boat with the North Sea boom. In the late 1970s, there were extensive plans drawn up to extend Cluny Harbour out to the Mucks reef with the intention of serving oilfield supply vessels. Nothing came of this but every now and then the idea rears its head once more to be met with great enthusiasm before failing to get off the ground again.

Buckie was home to a specialist electric lamp factory of Thorn EMI until 1987 when it was closed and production moved to a new plant in Leicestershire. All of the predominantly female staff were offered jobs at the new facility in the East Midlands but, as the vast majority of the labour force were second wage earners in families, this offer was almost universally rejected.

Buckie is home to the Inchgower Distillery, which sits 1 mi or so inland from the town and is best known for the Inchgower Single Malt.

Religion
As a traditional fishing community, Buckie has always had an active religious life, and thus has numerous churches representing almost every branch of Northern European Christianity. The largest church is St. Peter's, which stands on St. Andrews Square in Buckpool. This twin-spired red sandstone construction was originally planned to act as the cathedral for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Aberdeen when it was opened in 1857. This never came to pass and Buckie was left with what is arguably one of the grandest churches in NE Scotland outside of Aberdeen. The basis of this reasoning was that the Roman Catholic population per capita in the area around Buckie was one of the highest in post-Reformation Scotland. St. Gregory's, built at Preshome near Buckie in 1788, was the first post-Reformation church to be built in Scotland that looked like a church – prior to that date post-Reformation Roman Catholics worshiped in clandestine churches designed to look anonymous. These sometimes resembled farm buildings or ordinary houses, a superbly preserved example of this is St. Ninian's (1775) at Tynet about 4 mi to the west of Buckie, which looks like a long, low barn.

The largest Church of Scotland congregation in the town worships in the North Church in Cluny Square. This building houses the town clock and was opened in 1879. There are other Church of Scotland congregations in addition to Methodist, Salvation Army, Episcopal, Baptist, Gospel Hall Brethren and other congregational churches.

Schools
Buckie High School is located on West Cathcart Street. Directly opposite from the original and still functioning old building of the school is Cluny Primary School (Buckie Primary School until 1974.) Examination results are in line with those of young people with similar needs and backgrounds in other schools across Scotland.

There are three further primary schools in the town - Millbank Primary School on McWilliam Crescent in the newer mid-southern part of Buckie, St. Peter's RC Primary School in Buckpool and Portessie Primary School. Additional primary schools in Portgordon, Findochty, Portknockie and Cullen contribute to the roll of Buckie High School. The small communities of Arradoul, Drybridge, Rathven and Lintmill, none of which support their own schools any longer, also contribute to the BHS roll along with the families of the many farms scattered locally. The adjoining school areas are Banff, Keith and Fochabers.

Leisure
Like other towns in the area, Buckie is well served by golf courses, with clubs at the eastern and western peripheries. To the eastern extremity with a spectacular clifftop location lies Strathlene Golf Course, which stretches almost all the way to the village of Findochty; while to the west, also on a clifftop, lies Buckpool Golf Club, which reaches towards the village of Portgordon.

Adjacent to Buckie High School is Victoria Park, home of Buckie Thistle Football Club. Although The Jags had been consistently high finishers in the Highland Football League, the league title had eluded the club since 1958. The long wait ended on 1 May 2010 when an away win at Wick Academy F.C. sealed a first championship in 52 years. The championship was retained in May 2011 by a 2–1 victory over nearest rivals Deveronvale in the last match of the season, with Buckie scoring the winner in the final minute. The 1950s was a decade when all trophies available were regularly won. During this era Buckie Thistle travelled to Hampden Park to meet Queen's Park in a Scottish Cup 4th round replay on 30 October 1954, winning 2–1, becoming the first and, to this day, only senior non-league club to have won a competitive match at the national stadium. The board has developed the stadium in recent years, adding a function hall within the ground so that sponsors and match-goers can enjoy licensed and catering facilities pre- and post-match.

In Buckpool, next door to Buckpool Golf Club, is the Merson Park home of Buckie Rovers Football Club. The Rovers are members of the Scottish Junior Football Association and play in that body's North First Division (East). At one time they played at Victoria Park, alternating home fixtures with their senior cousins but when Buckie Thistle were suffering an episode of extreme financial distress the decision was taken to move to a new facility at the municipal Merson Park. The Merson Park ground has only a perimeter fence and dugouts differentiating it from a municipal pitch and there are no covered or seated facilities at all.

Near the southern edge of town on High Street lies Linzee Gordon Park. This is home to Buckie Cricket Club Buckie Cricket Club Online 2008, which has a very long history with numerous Macallan North of Scotland Cricket Association League NoSCA - North of Scotland Cricket Association titles (having last topped the league in 2018) on top of various league and cup wins in the 1990s including two wins in the prestigious Scottish Cricket Union Small Clubs Cup, specifically in 1995 and 1997. BCC built a modern pavilion to replace their aging home, which opened in June 1998. The construction was partly funded by sportscotland and the National Lottery. Linzee Gordon Park also has a municipal pavilion along with adjoining pitch for football use. Additionally, for some of the year, the football pitch at Linzee Gordon Park had been converted to become a rugby pitch where Buckie RFC trained and played home games although the club ceased operations as of 28 May 2011 due to lack of interest.

Bowling is a popular pastime in Buckie and the town boasts two greens. Buckie Bowling Club is on North High Street and Low Street with views over the Moray Firth from the clubhouse. Victoria Bowling Club sits on West Church Street adjacent to Victoria Bridge and the Buckie Burn flowing below.

Buckie has a 25m swimming pool, which was built next to Buckie High School and opened in 1975.

Buckie is at the end of the Speyside Way long-distance footpath. There is magnificent coastal scenery all along the Banff coast, with easy access to areas such as Glenlivet, Speyside and the Cairngorms.

Notable people

 * George Henry Bennett, brewer and politician, of Richmond, Victoria, Australia, 1850-1908
 * John Garden Scottish International footballer, 1904-1996
 * Alexander Hutchison, poet
 * Alex Jappy, accordionist
 * Avril Mair, fashion journalist and editor
 * Colin Mark, lexicographer and writer in Scottish Gaelic
 * George McIntosh, Victoria Cross recipient
 * Billy Milne, soldier and football player
 * Trond Mohn, Norwegian businessman and philanthropist
 * Malcolm Slater, football player
 * Jennifer Smith (sociolinguist), FRSE sociolinguist studies Scottish dialect
 * Isla St Clair, singer
 * Alex Wilson, football player

In popular culture
Stephen King mentioned the Buckie Thistle Football club in his novel If It Bleeds.

title: Buckie


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Pointer

Pointer may refer to:

People with the name

 * Pointer (surname), a surname (including a list of people with the name)
 * Pointer Williams (born 1974), American former basketball player

Arts, entertainment, and media

 * Pointer (journal), the official journal of the Singapore Armed Forces
 * The Pointer, a 1939 American animated short film
 * The Pointer Sisters, an American R&B vocal group formed in 1969

Astronomy
Pairs of stars popularly called "The Pointers":
 * Alpha Centauri and Beta Centauri, which point to the Southern Cross
 * Alpha Ursae Majoris (Dubhe) and Beta Ursae Majoris (Merak), which point to Polaris

Brands and enterprises

 * Pointer (wireless phone), a short-lived mobile phone service in Finland in the 1980s
 * Pointer Insecticide, a brand of injected Imidacloprid for systemic insect control in trees
 * Pointer Telocation, an Israeli company specializing in stolen vehicle recovery

Computing and technology

 * Pointer (computer programming), a data type used in programming
 * Pointer (user interface), the graphical image which echoes movements of the pointing device, commonly a mouse or touchpad

Devices

 * Pointer (rod), an object used to point manually
 * Pointer, a dial indicator, that points to a value on a dial or scale
 * Pointer, a kind of pencil sharpener used for 2.0 mm diameter lead
 * Pointing stick, an isometric joystick used as a pointing device

Dog breeds

 * Pointer (dog breed), the English type
 * Pointing breed, a group of breeds of hunting dog trained to point at prey

Places

 * Pointer, Kentucky
 * Pointers, New Jersey
 * The Pointers, a pair of rocks off Antarctica

Transport

 * FQM-151 Pointer, a small unmanned aerial vehicle ⋅
 * Plaxton Pointer, a single-decker bus body
 * Volkswagen Pointer, a Brazilian car (built in the 1990s)

Other uses

 * Point man, one who takes the front position in a combat military formation

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title: Pointer


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User talk:Ron Price

I have an interest in autobiography, in the writing of memoirs, in diaries and journals. for this reason I have posted the following article on the subject of autobiography.-Ron Price, Tasmania -- SOME THOUGHTS ON THE WRITING OF AUTOBIOGRAPHY

The autobiographies of others, as I have indicated in several previous essays, illuminate ones own attempt to understand ones life through writing it down. St. Augustines (354-430 AD) Confessions has a distinctly modern flavour, before his conversion and after. Mine, a very moderate confessionalism, begins essentially with my conversion, although in my poetry the decade before my contact with the Bahai cause receives some attention. Like Augustine I certainly possess a sense of participating in an eternal plan. This is also true of Dantes(1265-1321) La vita nuova. For these writers as well as for me, the account is no final story, but a preparation for even more on the horizon.

Four hundred years later John Bunyan (1628-1688) wrote in his Grace Abounding(1666) an account of his life. Truth became known, it is argued, through his experience. For me, as well, it was truth becoming understood through my experience. I had had a massive influx of truth at fifteen and before. Indeed, my life was one of continual access to truth. Of course, truth is nosimple subject, but I leave that philosophical question for other essays.

Conversion was a beginning point for me and life provided one long, unending process of coming to understand its myriad ramifications. Dante accessed truth in dreams, some five in his autobiography; Bunyan had some ten mystical experiences or visions. Not for me a series of ecstatic moments in my curve of learning, much more a process which Baha'u'llah has described as a series of seven stages that we go through in our life, from crisis to victory. Bahaullahs Seven Valleys provides a detailed delineation of this process. It is complex, much more complex than anything autobiography had revealed by 1666.

For Bunyan all experiences partook equally in his ultimate deliverance. For me, certain events in my life stood out: getting to know two, perhaps, three personalities; my psychiatric illnesses; my moving to Australia; my two marriages; my parents; my career; my attempt to live a life consistent with the teachings of this new world Faith; my role as a pioneer.

For all these men and for me the presence of the divine was critical to their lives, albeit in different ways. By the time Bunyan wrote, the structure of belief upon which all previous historical autobiography was built, was beginning to fall into disrepair. With Benjamin Franklin(1706-1790) the edifice of autobiography came to be built entirely on human recollections alone.

Augustine had a contact outside of time through Christ; mine is and has been through Bahaullah. He is the ground of my being and the basis for any human consanguinity. My position is not unlike that of all autobiographers up to Franklin. Augustine addresses his narrative to God; what he writes is like a devotional colloquy. My entire corpus is addressed to my readers, in my minds eye, generations not yet born and holy souls who have passed on and who assist me in ways I do not know; as well as, and especially,  to a body of men which represents an institutionalization of the charisma at the heart of my belief system. Like Franklin, I offer up my autobiography on the authority of personal conviction and I offer it as a contribution to an understanding how one person lived his life within the framework of an emerging world religion, at an early stage in its development, its second century. I am not seeking, as Franklin apparently was, to get men to imitate me; far from it. But it is my hope that they would gain greater understanding of their religion and its history, its history as it was embodied in the life of one of its ordinary practitioners, one of its votaries during the second to the fourth epochs of what was called its Formative Age.

Augustine, Dante and Bunyan used the form of autobiography to dramatize their belief that an eternal truth guided their lives. For Franklin it was reason which centred and dramatized his life; in writing his autobiography he was essentially reliving a successful life. It was his hope that the lessons of his own individual experience and self-reliance, would replace the role taken by revealed truth.

The truths of the Bab and Bahaullah, the God-men, if you like of this new religion, and their legitimate successors(1844-1995) are a critical anchorage for my own story; understanding and experience are the fruit of my life and this is another anchoraage. Experience does not replace revelation but is an important buttress of everything that has come to constitute me, my identity, my self, indeed, my soul.

Rousseau(1712-1778) tries through his autobiography, his Confessions, to secure an honoured place in history. For him truth lies in his feelings and in the continuity of his soul. I have written about this theme of fame or renown in my poetry and in my journal. If I secure some place in history through the efforts contained in all that is represented by Pioneering Over Three Epochs it will be because there is something worthwhile in what I have written and that there is some meaning and historical significance of some kind in what I write that illuminates a future age.

I find this an inspiring goal: to contribute to an ever-advancing civilization. This would make my contribution ongoing, beyond my life in a very concrete sense. If this does not occur, it will be because people do not find it of use, of interest. I will have gained, I trust, through my examination of my inner life and my outer life as I am asked to do in the Writings of my Faith.

Rousseau, like Franklin, secularizes historical autobiography. He describes how he came to be the way he was. I do the same. Rousseau tries to remake society in his image. Franklin tries to get people to imitate him. I try to do neither. Experience for Rousseau, as it was for Augustine, is the enemy of truth and happiness. For me the relation of the two is far more complex than this; indeed, it would require a separate essay to begin to explore this relationship. I, like Rousseau, enjoy my visits into the past to write autobiography. There is a nostalgia, a warm richness that coats the past. Unlike Rousseau I do not see the past as a sad concatenation of events that has led to my wretchedness. Rather, I see a series of events coated with many colours from dark blacks and browns to warm reds and spiritual blues, if one can give colours physical and psychological equivalents. There is sadness and there is joy; it depends where I look.

Augustine found true being outside of time; I do too, but I also find it in time. Rousseau found the thread, the link, the life of his soul in the undercurrent of feeling that ran through his entire life. Here he found a coherent, continuous whole and it was here that he reexperienced in imagination his enthusiasms, his hopes, his ambitions and pleasures. To tap into these feelings the narrator must relive his life. I find this particular aspect of Rousseaus approach to autobiography very helpful. He has put into words what I have tried to do. When I have been successful I have achieved a kind of root-tapping. Rousseau saw this retrospective activity more a form of self-realizaton. To him it was divine. It caused the world to vanish; it caused the writer to enter an ecstatic plane of self-possession, a necessary stage perhaps en route to self-forgetfulness. Rousseau came to see all his past wanderings as pointless and destructive. Viewed sub specie aeternitatis, I have found my pioneer wanderings as part of a meaningful whole, especially the suffering.

The action that is my past has been characterized by a certain degree of faithfulness and a certain degree of passion. Augustine emphasized the former and Rousseau the latter. Experience has been both my enemy and my friend; passion both the life of my soul and its death. This is true of just about everything one does. Everything changes with each movement. Remembered feeling becomes the criteria for the truest autobiographical statement. Autobiography, for Rousseau, becomes not so much the life he lived as the life he lived in the act of composing his life. I find this to be true of my own writing in whatever genre the autobiography is found. I find myself in autobiography, like some flickering light of an ineffable bliss. It helps in making the road to the grave profitable, enlightened by the two most luminous lights of intellect and wisdom. To claim any wisdom makes me a little uncomfortable in Australia, a land of an unpretentiousness and cynicism that lives luxuriously slightly beneath the surface of everyday events.

I am more than a little conscious of the transition from a relatively unreflective young adult to what could be seen as an excessively reflective man of middle years. But, like Bunyan, I fetch invigorating thoughts from former years and recreate an energy that has been lost or, better, transferred from brawn to brain. Like Wordsworth I rescue from decay the old/ By timely interference/ and so ripen;dawn into steady morning/, or perhaps late afternoon.(for surely the last half of middle adulthood-50 to 60-can be equated with late afternoon).

My purpose here is not so much to tell the story of my life, although I do achieve this in my narrative, but to look within, self-examine, gain self-knowledge, achieve some union between the knower(me) and the known. I find there is a certain stasis, quietness in my movement, reposeful condition, as a result of this writing process. The knowing and acting self has finally been brought together. The slow process of looking within and finding God, of acquiring virtues and contributing to the development of civilization, or of experiencing generativity and integration is all partially understood in the act of autobiography.

And so, like Wordsworth in his Prelude, I became a traveller in my own life. My primary vehicle has been poetry, although I have provided other genres largely for future readers should there be any. For poetry reveals, in Wordsworths words our beings heart and home; it allows discordant elements of our life to harmonize; it renovates the spirit in a priestly robe; it precedes from some creative and enduring source and becomes a source of knowledge, power and joy. Poetry is like a regulating device. It comes to see the parts of life in terms of the whole; indeed the recollected hours, again in the words of Wordsworth, have the charm of visionary things. Again, in Wordsworths idiom, poetry diffuses:

Through meagre lines and colours, and the press Of self-destroying, transitory things, Composure and ennobling Harmony.(VII, 769-71)

Wordsworth was not able to find his centre in an urban landscape. He always returned to nature for his centre. My centre has only been threatened in a deep and serious, a conscious and obvious way on rare occasions in the course of my life: during university for about a year in 1964-65; in 1968 during a stay in a mental hospital in Whitby Ontario;  in 1974 in the losing of my voting rights and the events that led up to them and, arguably, in 1995 when my experience of Bahai community life dried up. Much else could be said on this theme but now is not the time. One thing should be said; namely, that if my Centre did disappear from my life the very raison d-etre for my life-and hence my autobiography-would go with it. In contrast to Wordsworth, who turned to nature when his centre was lost, I turned to prayer, to a process of waiting and withdrawal, as well as a gradual reorientation to Bahai community life. Slowly the pattern of Bahai life, so eloquently and extensively described in the Bahai literature, would begin to emerge again in a form that I was comfortable with, which gave me joy and meaning and which was clearly an expression of finding my centre, safe and secure.

Wordsworth stated that life was like a river of remembrances which we try to shape into some pattern. But for him the view was dark and the movement of the soul was hidden from the reach of words, like forgotten experience which is hidden from our search on this intricate and difficult path. There are though, he stated, spots of time that nourish and invisibly repair our minds. They have a special virtue. This concept has some place in a Bahai perspective: our declaration of belief, our hearing of the Faith, the Fast, moments of prayer, etcetera. In some future and fuller autobiographical account I might pursue this theme further. In the end, Wordsworth was left with thought and faith and his own words, his life: this was his truth, the true being that he sought. At the end of my work, this autobiography, the reader will find something quite beyond a writer, a personality, in however much detail his life is displayed. He will find a human experience that is touched by the white radiance of eternity, by the spirit and teachings of several souls who are continuing to energize the whole world to a degree unapproached during their earthly lives.

Thomas de Quinceys Confessions place opium at the centre of a life, not a man or a divinity. De Quincey, like Franklin, had to rely on his own experience and the shared convictions of his culture to find any truth there was to find. De Quincey said that time breaks the self into impermanent, unrecapturable feelings, but that suffering brings it all together. Sometimes. There is a type of permanence, a type of capturing that autobiography creates. The fierce condition of eternal hurry which concerned De Quincey  I have been conscious of at least since the beginning of my pioneer life in 1962. I refer to it as the sense of urgency. I feel as if I have been running for three decades, although in the last several years the running has been more frequently in my head. In other ways, the road has been too slow and tortuous to suit me. One seems to have only some degree of influence on the process, a degree which can not be measured.

De Quincey said he never heard the eternal, celestial music of life, although he believed in it. If I examine the entire period of my life beginning in 1962, several years after I joined the Cause, I find an increasing intensification of the music of the spheres, punctuated by no sounds at all and such stygian gloom that the soul wondered if it would ever recover.

My poetry, though, allows my words to enter or become the readers reality in unique ways, if the reader possesses the necessary susceptibilities. He becomes infected with a mode of utterance; his mind whirls around in mine. It is not the historical events that make the life; that life is essentially ungraspable. I can not find my life in the narrative or, indeed, in some of the philosophically intertwined material there. I find only a handle of some kind which is graspable; I find a work about itself, about a ghost that is me. I find something that tries to tie me together, my past to my present. How does one express what it is that ties it all together. Poetry provides better linkages: fuller, deeper, more intimate; these linkages are linkages to my past, my society, my self and the future. The poetry seems to provide the oneness I seek. It connects me with the infinite through Bahaullah and provides a vehicle for expressing this connection. For how does one know what one thinks about a connection until one has put it in words, however briefly. The poetry brings together an outer man and an inner man, two men who are so very distinct. They each provide two distinct sets of feedback about who I am. My poetry throws a light which both unites and separates my selves in paradoxical and ironic juxtapositions.

The surface externalities: where I worked, what I did, those I knew, etcetera in some basic ways hide the man rather than displaying him; they veil the inner person. The inner person can be found much more clearly in my poetry: both the darknesses and the lights are there, the mystery and the simplicity, the ambiguity and those paradoxes. The inner passages of my being, all its chambers, its treasures and its rubbish heaps are found here. The emblematical gold, the priceless gem, that writers like Hawthorne looked for in vain, was handed to me on a platter at the age of fifteen. Thou without the least effort did attain thy goal. Yet, as Bahaullah says, I remained wrapt in the veil of self. To put it another way my life has been a testing of the gold with periodic fires. It is quite a different battle than it was for writers like Hawthorne fight. But my autobiography has many parallels with his. It is, as Spengemann puts it in describing the fictive autobiography of Hawthorne, a series of actions performed in the act of composition, a historical record and an interpretation of them. The process and the result tells me who I am, at least in part. I find some of my immortal self, a lifelong task. The search yields only some result; the definition of success, the measuring rod so to speak,  is found in the framework of a body of ethical and moral insights of the Baha’i writings.

Hawthorne and most of his contemporaries never possessed this framework and their search did not yield the beauty of His countenance.(HW, Persian, 22) All they found was a self, one created in the autobiography. A great deal of the who that I am, the what that I am, the garment of words can never tell. I am Gods mystery. But every atom in existence is ordained for my training. And so, on and on the quotations from the Writings pile high providing the perspective, the framework, that the contemporary secular autobiographer lacks. Every Bahai that follows the autobiographical road has this same framework, this same centre, within which he can sift the experience of his life.

It may just be that modern man in search of his soul requires a particular Centre; that the Augustinian assumptions regarding the soul and the self are not adequate for these days; that the reshaping of the self, the soul, can not be accomplished by autobiographical efforts in the context of experience itself without getting lost in an inherent subjectivity. As Keats put it for many: I have no Nature As Eliot put it: the self is everywhere present, and everywhere absent in the act of writing. The autobiographical experience is so enigmatic in this kind of framework as to discourage, frustrate and, in the end, seem just about meaningless. For the Bahai who has been exhorted to understand his inner life, his private character; to take account each day before the final reckoning; to see with his own eyes and know of his own knowledge; to find the inner light and get its radiance, be content with it and seek naught else; for such a Bahai who has turned his sight unto himself he may, through autobiography, find his Lord standing within him mighty, powerful and self-subsistent.(HW, Arabic, 13)

One thing I am very conscious of finding as I tell and retell, examine and reexamine my life, is a series of progressive and regressive periods repeating over time. Repose and adventure seem to be unstable states. Much of what could be called the romance of my story can be found in the oscillation between the saint, the hero, the courageous adventurer and the little fat man who preserves his comfort, his security, the chrysalis of everyday life To put the contrast another way: it is the contrast between the ordinary self and the heroic self, between ourselves as anti-heroes and heroes, that makes the real adventure, the colouration, the heart of the journey. The struggle with the ordinary self always involves courage and it is here that the road to high adventure is found.

Roger Bannister describes the moments when he neared completion of the four-minute mile this way: I had a moment of mixed joy and anguish, when my mind took over. It raced well ahead of my body and drew my body compellingly forward. I felt that the moment of a lifetime had come. There was no pain, only a great unity of movement and aim. The world...did not exist....I felt at that moment that it was my chance to do one thing supremely well.(J.A. Michener, Sports in America, Random House, NY, 1976,p.77.) My experience in the last three to four years has been much like this moment of Bannisters. The world did not exist for Bannister as he headed for victory. The world provides a fertile base of material for writing poetry as the world provided Bannister with the misc-en-scene for his achievement. In this sense I find the world is like a window into the future, richly laden with meaning. It drives the engine of my writing, endlessly it would seem. One day, inevitably, I will run out of gas. After what seems like an endless sequence of adventures and security blankets finally an integration has occurred. It is like winning the race, the game, the prize, the lottery. The drudgery, tedium and gracelessness of so much that is ordinary life is gone. This is the most apt thing I can say that brings this autobiography up-to-date. Time will tell what sort of longevity this experience possesses. Each writer, each poet, has his own story.

Ron Price 31 December 1995 (edited: 22/7/'09)

title: User talk:Ron Price


text:
Talk:Frappé coffee

Untitled
I object to the article "Frappé (Greek)" being renamed "Greek frappé coffee". When you order a frappé, you simply ask for just that - a frappé. You do not ask for a "Greek frappé coffee". It's not like Irish Coffee, for instance. Irish Coffee is a term used internationally for a particular drink, whearas "Greek frappé coffee" is used no where by anybody for anything.

Similarly, we do not refer to Austrian cappuchino or French latté.

I'm for changing the article back to "Frappé (Greek)".

--Damac 15:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, but then we should ask an admin to delete "Frappé (Greek)" so we can move the article there. I do not allow my contribution to be copy-pasted without attribution. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 15:52 Z

 * I see your point about attribution, I wasn't aware that original authors lost out with redirections. I had set up the "Frappé (Greek)" entry before I noticed your page on the Categories: Greek Cuisine page. How do I go about asking admin?

I guess the Requested moves guide applies here.—Geraki 2005-07-14 T 23:12 Z

Also, I think adding "coffee" to the title is not bad. "Frappé" is a milk drink in every country except Greece. If you ask for a "Frappé" in London you will get a milkshake and not coffee. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 15:56 Z

 * I would stick to Frappé (Greek). If needs be, there can be a disambigation page set up to distinguish it from Frappé (milkshake) or whatever. The original designation "Greek frappe coffee" was pointless as it did not come up in simple searches of the word frappe. I think my suggestion confirms to standard wiki naming proceedures. --Damac 17:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah you cannot find "frappé" when searching for "frappe", but that is not the case here (the article shows normally on searches). While I would not cry if my suggestion is not followed, I believe that according to Naming conventions (precision) adding "coffee" to the title would make the subject more clear. Of course when one finds it in the coffe category it's not needed. Whatever. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 23:12 Z

Confused
Don't know whom I'm suppose to discuss this with but I just added an article Yiannis Dritsas, should it be merged into Greek frappé coffee article? ~Mallaccaos
 * Yiannis ritsas should expand to a proper bio article instead of being deleted/merged Pictureuploader

And it might be correct to comment that 'frappé' is a french word. (meaning to beat or knock -as in the ice cubes do in a shaker) On menues the beverage is more often presented as  'Café frappé'. 'Greek' coffee is something entirely different.

It might be appropriate to mention Starbucks' Frappuccino in this article. It's clearly a derivative (perhaps an 2nd or 3rd derivative ;-) --Clconway 08:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 * What evidence do you have that it's a derivative? It's a cold coffee drink involving sweetened coffee syrup with milk and emulsifiers (not instant coffee), ice, and a blender.  Nescafé frappé is made with instant coffee, sugar, water, and ice, and doesn't need a blender.  They're both cold coffee drinks, but then iced coffee predates both of them.... --Macrakis 23:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

 * On a related note, how is the Frappuccino "European?" From Frappuccino: "A frozen coffee drink similar to Starbucks's Frappuccino was invented by The Coffee Connection ... who coined and trademarked Frappuccino." 96.37.29.231 (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a derivative at all. The original drink was a frozen drink made with ice in a blender creating something similar to a milkshake. In Boston, a Frappe is a milkshake. It was invented by a Boston area coffee chain called "The Coffee Connection" owned by George Howell. This chain was purchased by Starbucks in large part for the rights to the Frappuccino beverage (as well as a quick easy entrance into the lucrative Boston coffee market). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.88.228 (talk) 02:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

merger
I oppose the proposed merger. One page is about a drink, the other is about a guy who made the drink. What is this fondness for merging pages? -The Gomm 21:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps because the inventor is not notable enough other than the invention of Frappe, so he doesnt deserve an article on his own. It should be expanded to be a proper bio article. Pictureuploader 07:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Dritsas was not the mythologized inventor of frappé. It was his employee, sales rep Dimitrios Vakondias [see "Frappé Nation" (Editions Potamos), page 134].Dansyoung 11:02, 26 October 2006

Well, let's see what's left of the Dritsas article if we take out things about Nescafé Frappé:
 * Yiannis Dritsas was the distributor for Nestle in Greece.

That's all. That is little enough to be an appositive phrase. Since no one has found anything else notable about this fellow since the merger was proposed, I am merging it in. If it turns out he later became president of Nescafé International and had three children with Britney Spears (now, that's notability!), the article can be split out again. --Macrakis 23:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I concur. Just write the invention story too, and redirect his name here if you like. NikoSilver 23:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Greece consumes four times more coffee than the rest of the world"
Even if true, this is a rather misleading statistic, as it compares Greek coffee consumption to world consumption and not consumption in coffee-drinking countries. Although Greeks do love coffee, per capita consumption of coffee in Greece is less than half of what it is in Finland. Moreover, per capita coffee consumption in Greece regularly ranks below such countries as Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, and Germany. If it seems that Greeks are drinking more coffee, it might have to do with the durability of frappé foam and the custom of drinking frappé slowly over the course of an hour or two or three.Dansyoung 16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I added that remark copied from a magazine. What are your sources? Pictureuploader 17:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The ICO (International Coffee Organization) compiles country-by-country statistics on per capita coffee consumption. You can find them on many sites, including http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/energy-resources/variable-294.htmlDansyoung 10:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Frappé in Ireland
"Most coffee shops do not produce frappe as the simplicity of their make up eludes most Barristas."

I am not sure about that sentence...

Actually, the majority of the Ireland section is a different style. Could someone with some decent knowledge of the area edit it a bit? I know nothing about frappé, never mind in Ireland, so I'm not really qualified... --FaerieInGrey 20:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

and also can u source the price? is it always 4 euros?--Slogankid 18:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

wtf wrong picture.
That's no frappe, mates. that's cappucinno freddo. please change the pic to the original. or i can up my own. in a pint glass. 16:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really frappé variations, simply other iced coffees
An iced-coffee called espresso freddo (or cappuccino freddo) has also emerged. The difference from frappé in preparation is that it consists of an espresso lungo shaken in a glass full of crushed ice cubes. Capuccino freddo is served with a topping of milk in a form of a dense froth. Cocoa or cinnamon powder is optionally dusted on the foam, to resemble real cappuccino. Its preparation is sometimes confused with the iced café latte (espresso in iced cold milk but without shaking) that is consumed in the rest of Europe.

moved by Wildaker

A minor point on "Balkan immigrants"
It was not Balkan immigrants who brought the drink to Bulgaria, Denmark and Serbia. There are too few of them in Greece (except Albanians) and, since they are immigrants, i.e. they live in Greece, they cannot carry anything with them to their home countries. God knows how Denmark ended up here. I've changed it to "tourists", which is a more adequate explanation for frappe expansion.

"accidentally"
I published the change without putting a title - I removed the cit needed and added a ref after the word accidentally.--Greece666 (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Grammar and formatting of the noun "frappé"
Hey friends hope all are well out there, here in the depths of quarantine I decided to spend some time giving little articles like this some TLC. In looking over this article I've noticed some peculiarities in the way the word frappé is used. I thought I'd bring them up here to see if there was any disagreement about the specifics.

 * Frappe or frappé? | Most of the uses in the article include the tone (é) while a few lack it. I don't feel very strongly that one is way more correct than the other, but there definitely needs to be only one form used in the article. In my opinion there shouldn't technically be a tone over the 'e' because:
 * English as a language is not very good at handling tones tones and they can lead to confusion.
 * This is not a proper noun being borrowed into English from Greek or French, the word "frappe" is already an English word without the tone. In fact the wiktionary entry for it lists one definition as this very drink.
 * And perhaps most importantly, a few google searches show that when the word is used toe describe the Greek drink specifically, it is very regularly spelled without the tone.
 * While I don't feel strongly about this, my recommendation would be that the tone be removed from the title of the article as a whole and that it be written in the article with no tone; maybe we make reference to the tone as an alternate name.

 * Frappe vs. a frappe | For the most part this article seems to treat word frappe as a non-count noun (like the word "money"). This is maybe because the original writer was influenced by the way the term works in Greek, though I'm not sure about this. Whatever the reason, the result feels very unnatural to me. Sentences like, "Sometimes, frappé is served without any water..." or "A glass of frappé coffee" sound wrong to my ear. I would argue the word frappe should be treated just like the word latte (eg: "A frappé is served"). If this change is, and I think it should be, it would require us to decide on a plural. Again I think this should follow the example of "latte." We should talk about "1 frappe" or "2 frappes".
 * A glass of frappe | This sounds very wrong to my ear. As with my other points, I think looking to the word "latte" is the solution to this problem. We don't ask for a "glass of latte" and similarly I don't think we can talk about a "glass of frappe".
 * Frappé coffee, caffe frappé, Greek frappé, or just frappé | While it makes sense to point out all these titles at the head of the article, we should differ to the most common English name used by people who know about the drink. In my experience that only term used regularly to refer to this type of coffee is simply "frappe" with all the longer names appearing only on menus (just like how a menu might read "caffe latte" but you actually ask for a "latte") or when there is a need prevent confession with other types of frappes (like a "Greek frappe not a "Boston frappe"). So I'm proposing we point out that it is usually "simply called a frappe" at the head of the article and the refer to the dink only by that term unless there is a specific reason to use the long name.

Since this seems to be a pretty sleepy page, and since none of these changes seem like they should be particularly controversial, I'm going to go ahead and start working on these changes unless there is disagreement to be had. Cheers --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 18:45, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Frappé with an acute accent (not a "tone") is the normal and correct way to spell frappé coffee. In New England, a milk shake with ice cream is called a frappe, and is pronounced in one syllable, as FRAP. The acute accent is necessary to show that it's pronounced fra-PAY. The case of latte is different. That is borrowed from Italian, and is not written with an accent in Italian.
 * The OED documents the use of frappé (with an accent) for iced drinks throughout the 20th century (though it doesn't mention Greek-style frappé coffee in particular).
 * As you say, most uses in the existing article include the accent. I have corrected the two cases without. --Macrakis (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry ! I think I ended up undoing some of your edits when I just pushed out a major edit that included the creation of an info box and a heavy edit on the science-y section about foam, it was not my intention to remove your changes which I mostly agreed with! --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As for the issue of frappé vs frappe. You seem to be right that most official sources list only frappé as the official spelling in English, or list it only as a French word, though none of them mention the Greek drink in their definitions which means we're not necessarily beholden to that spelling. In my googling at least, most websites, blogs, menus, etc. that talk explicitly about the about the Greek frappe(é) seem to use no accent unless they are quite old (like the cited LA times article form 2004). Like I said above, I'm not staunchly opposed to the use of the accent, it just seems a little proscriptive to me since people talking about frappes don't seem to use it. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 21:08, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * There is no "official" standard for English spelling. But random web sites and blogs are not good sources -- they're often sloppy about both content and style. The normal pronunciation of "frappe" in English is FRAP, which is not what is intended here, so I think the accent is needed. (By the way, I think you mean prescriptive and not proscriptive.) --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * About my changes which you overwrote, I trust you will merge them back in? Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I don't mean to say there is an "official" way to spell the word, only that "official" sources (ie conservative sources) like the OED and Merriam-Webster list only frappé with an accent. Though as you pointed out these sources are not actually referring to the same thing as we are. None of them seem to have entries from "frappe the Greek iced-coffee." I also didn't mean to imply that only "random web sites and blogs" omit the accent. I mean that (from what I can tell) the vast majority of recent publications that are specifically about the Greek frappe spell the word without an accent (be they blogs, company websites, corporate publications, or academic papers). Based on that fact, I think its a reasonable statement that "frappe" is the common spelling and therefore should be used by the wiki article. For example here are three formal or academic sources that use the accentless "frappe" all of which were at the top of the page when "frappé coffee" or "frappe coffee" is searched on google scholar: 1, 2, 3. In fact, taking a second look at the Google Scholar result for "frappé coffee" it seems that every single article that is referring to the Greek coffee drink spells it with no accent

 * The fact that English speakers may intuitively mispronounce a word (such as "frappe") has no bearing on how it is spelled on Wikipedia, nor should it. Firstly, there are other methods explicitly designed to make pronunciation clear on Wikipedia (namely the IPA template) and secondly, Wikipedia is a descriptive source, not a prescriptive one (which is indeed what I meant above :) ). My understanding is that the only thing that should matter here is how most people spell the word frappe(é) when referring to the greek drink. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 23:40, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I agree that WP is in the business of recording usage, not defining it.
 * If you believe it is the case that the vast majority of reliable sources spell it without the accent, please document it. I don't think Google Scholar is really a great source for general usage, but let's look at the first page of results for frappe coffee (Google search generally ignores accents):
 * Mirkopoulou et al. -- letter to the editor, not a reliable source (your Hippokratia result)
 * Patent US4903585A -- not mentioned in body of text, refers to another patent where it's spelled with the accent
 * Radu-Golea -- with accent
 * Hsueh -- a computer science paper with incidental use of frappe without accent; authors are from Taiwan, so not clear that this represents native speakers' usage
 * Jones -- FRAPPE written in all-caps, so accent often not shown at all (they also spell Nescafé without an accent, even in lower case)
 * Patent US7231142B1 -- spells it without accent, but is describing a slushie-type drink made from brewed coffee, not a Greek-style frappé made with instant coffee
 * Patent US20050242120A1 -- same as last, a slushie, not a Greek-style frappé
 * My search didn't bring up the Cardiffmet document or the Spandidos document in the first page, but let's look at them:
 * Cardiffmet -- no accent, but doesn't define what it means by frappe, and I have no idea what "frappe" means in Cardiff, Wales. In fact, they seem to be using frappe as a short form of frappucino.
 * Spandidos -- one mention of frappe without accent, but doesn't define it! Also, authors are from Ankara, presumably not native English speakers. Their taxonomization of coffee types is inconsistent and under-specified, so it's not clear what exactly they're talking about.
 * Let's instead try Book search, which generally brings up reliable sources. Almost all the results for "frappe coffee" are about variants of frappuccino, not about the instant coffee drink, but some do mention the Greek frappé:
 * Daniel Young -- mentions Greek frappé explicitly, spells it with accent
 * Les Ilagan -- not about Greek-style frappé, and anyway is self-published (not RS)
 * Anette Moldvaer -- doesn't mention Greek-style frappé, but consistently uses accent for the other styles
 * So then I searched for [greek frappe coffee]
 * Daniel Young (same as above) -- with accent
 * Karayanis spells it "Kafe Frappe" phonetically, italicizing it to show that it's not English
 * Bostock -- with accent
 * Tzomakas Frappedia: The Coffee ala Greek Style. self-published, not RS -- inconsistent, spells it both with and without accent
 * C. L. Stone -- clearly the Greek style, mentioned without accent -- not clear what Arcato Publishing is
 * Bostock -- duplicate
 * Jarvis -- with accent
 * "An American", 1909, obviously not about the Greek drink
 * Rough Guides -- with accent
 * Willett -- with accent
 * Lauren Smith -- not a good source, but is with accent
 * Now let's see how the Nestlé spells it. They consistently spell it Nescafé Frappé, with an accent.
 * From all this, it looks like the spelling with the accent seems to be more common in reliable sources. But it's hard to get a good, unbiased sample of reliable sources. --Macrakis (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Okay this is a lot, so first off, kudos to you for digging into this totally pedantic topic, I love these kinds of discussions. Looking at this list of titles in the order they appear on google page is useful for finding them again, but I think looking at them in order of publication will help to make clear any changing trends in usage, which I think is key to what we're talking about. Before I dig into what bellow, lets quickly address Nestlé's usage. I don't think we can count this as an English usage. Nestlé is a French-Swiss company and I feel confident saying they are using the french word frappé here. Anyway...

 * Below I've reordered all the publications you reference in order of original publication and included their titles to make it easier to track them down. I also included one that appeared on my first page results which you didn't mention, though it's not a particularly useful source. I've marked it with an '*'. For each entry, I've labeled their usage of the word as well as the presence of an accent, tone, or nothing. Their usage was determined as either being English (meaning no special formatting) or Non-English (meaning bolded, italicized, or put into quotes) and is based on their first usage. I further broke "Non-English" into Greek or French if the context allowed. After this, I noted if the word appears with an accent, a tone (in the case of Greek usages), or nothing.  At the end of each line, I added a little "key". The formating is "X | X" where the first X denotes usage as E, NE, G, or F (English, Non-English, Greek, or French); and the second X denotes the presence of the accent as A, T, N (accent, tone, none).

 * Only 5 publications on the list come from the last decade and of those 3 are travel guides (2 of which are the same text republished), 1 is self-published and I was not able to preview it, and 1 is an "adult fiction" book. So in reality, we're looking at 3 actual data points two of which are the same specific kind of writing (travel guides). To help bulk up recent data, I refined the search to only publications since 2010 and only books with previews. Ignoring the publications already on the list I added below list the first 5 publications which are clearly talking about greek frappes and the relevant info.

 * Lauren Smith – didn't show up at all on my search, since she's a bad source I won't search for her.
 * 1909 An American – ignoring for obvious reasons.
 * 2000 Willett Greek Islands – Treats as English. With accent. E | A
 * 2015 (republished from 1982) Rough Guides, The Rough Guide to Greece ( (text is identical at least as far back as 2002 no preview to check the text farther back)) – Treats as Greek (bolded as "kafés frappé"). With tone. G | T
 * *2002 Indian Coffee, Bulletin of the Indian Coffee Board – Treets as English. Maybe no accent? Can't tell for sure, the preview is bad. E | ?
 * 2002 (no author published by Lonely Planet), Greece – Treats as English. With Accent. E | A
 * 2004 Jarvis, Time out Athens – Treats as English. With accent. E | A
 * 2008 Karayanis, Regional Greek Cooking –Treats treats as Greek ("kafe frappe"). No accent. G | N
 * 2009 Daniel Young, Coffee Love – Treats the word as French. Defines it as French on page 86, then considers the Greek frappe a "Greek version of the french frappé". F | A
 * 2010 Bostock, Greece: The Peloponnese (travel guide) – Treats as non-English (italicized). With accent. NE | A
 * 2019 (republish from 2010) Bostock, Greece: the Peloponnese (travel guide) – I think treats as English (Unlike in original publication). With accent. E | A
 * 2011 Fodor's Greek Islands (Travel guide) – Treats as English, though seems to be referencing the specific name brand of "Nescafé Frappé". With accent. E | A
 * 2015 Tzomakas (self-published) – I can't see any preview I have no idea. ? | ?
 * 2016 C. L. Stone, The Academy - First Kiss – Treats as English. No accent. E | N
 * Aditional Recent publications:
 * 2010 Vassilis Nitsiakos, On the Border – Treats as English. No Accent. E | N
 * 2011boo– Treats as English No accent. E | N
 * 2011 Jeanne Fuchs, The Road to Epidauros – Treats as Greek ("Kafé Frappé"). With tone. G | T
 * 2014 Yvette Manessis Corporon, When the Cypress Whispers – Treats as English. Without Accent. E | N
 * 2014 Barbara Letts Blodgett, Light and Shadow – Treats as "Greek" ("Caféfrappe"). IDK how to categorize this one. G | ?

 * If we strip this information down to just pub. dates and keys (I've noted the 2 travel guides with a "(TG)") and look specifically at Egnlish usage in the last decade (Including the Bostock republication) we are left with this list:
 * 2019 (2010) E | A (Bostock NE) (TG)
 * 2010 E | N
 * 2011 E | A (TG)
 * 2011 E | N
 * 2014 E | N
 * 2016 E | N

 * What I see in these data is that, at least based on this list, it's only the travel guides still using the accent and general usage is moving towards no accent. To see if this is representative of other modern results it might be helpful to look at how the number of google results compares. I don't know exactly how google handles accents so maybe this is useless, but here's what the numbers look like:

 * Google All Searches
 * 3,460,000 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
 * 2,830,000 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
 * 848,000 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
 * 164,000 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee
 * Google News Searches
 * 6,840 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
 * 6,200 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
 * 1,100 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
 * 434 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee
 * Google Books Searches
 * 2,640 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
 * 1,850 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
 * 1,590 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
 * 1,320 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee

 * In all cases, there are more results for an accentless usage. I'm curious to hear what you make of all this, to me, it seems to point to "frappe" becoming the norm while linguistically conservative publications (like the NYT which just published an article yesterday using frappé but linking to a source which uses frappe) and publications trying to emphasize the word's foreignness or pronunciation (such as travel guides) are holding on to "frappé". --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 15:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Nestlé is indeed a Swiss multinational. Their product marketing is customized for each market. If they spell it "frappé" for the English-speaking market, it's not because that's the French spelling!

 * Google book search is a nice source, though not perfect. Still, you have to be careful here, too. For example, many writers don't use accents when writing in all caps (FRAPPE).

 * Google Web search counts are highly unreliable for multiple reasons.
 * It is particularly unlikely that Google is reliable in differentiating words with and without accents.
 * Besides that, searching for [greek frappe coffee] only says that you're looking for documents that include the word "Greek", the word "frappe", and the word "coffee", not necessarily close to one another. In fact, Google's search is actually "soft", so all three words might not be present.

 * Six data points looks rather thin. I would rather depend on standard secondary sources than try to do our own research on which is the common spelling when the stats are so equivocal, but in this case, the standard sources (M-W, OED) haven't caught up.... My personal preference remains to use the accent, but I concede that I don't have any strong arguments for that. --Macrakis (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * As far as I can tell Nestlé uses the "Nestlé Frappé" branding exclusively in its Greek markets, the only references I can find to it online always have Greek on the container, like in the example you gave. In my personal experience, that branding only appears in America when imported to Greek markets from Greece. I've always assumed that in this context they were using the French word because of the french influence within the company and the etymology of the Greek word. I suppose it could be English... but that doesn't really make any sense to me. It also appears to always be treated as a brand name (in your source we see its trademarked wit a "Ⓡ"). All of which is to say, I don't think how Nestlé spells it is relevant to how its spelled in English or how we should spell it.

 * As for the Google results, I agree they do not make for very strong or reliable points (especially with this nuance) and mostly included them to show that they don't disagree with our book list. I also agree that six data points are not enough to make a conclusion. I did start to look at how recent news stories use the word in reference to Greek frappes and found that it was seemingly a toss-up with plenty using both forms and, in many cases, using one form and linking to a source that uses the other. So while I feel confident saying that trends are moving away from the accented form, I also don't have any legitimately citable evidence that "frappe" is now the norm. Something else to consider is that Wikipedia probably acting as a source for many more recent publications, so there may be a bit of a dog eating its own tail going on.

 * My preferences would be to spell it without an accent (given that it seems like the growing trend) and make a reference to the accented spelling at the head of the article (given that it's clearly still used and arguably the 'standard').... But I acknowledge we don't have particularly strong evidence for usage and that the standard sources, as well as the steady-state of this page, are against me. So given all that I don't think I have the right to demand any change unless other editors weigh-in or better sources can be found.

 * I'm happy enough with the continued use of "frappé" as long as we can at least a reference to the fact that "frappe" is a common alternate spelling. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 19:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Sounds good to me! Thanks for the constructive collaboration. --Macrakis (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Agreed! Here's to friendly discussions about minutia! --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Speaking of which, OED says "Use of minutia with plural agreement perhaps arises from the word being misunderstood as the plural of a Latin word in -um." That is, they record the fact that it's sometimes used that way, but they note that it's etymologically incorrect. More prescriptive sources, like the 1996 and 2015 editions of Fowler, aren't as shy: "minutiae ... The singular form, rarely called for, is minutia". 😏 --Macrakis (talk) 15:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Mixer
Back to more serious issues. 😀, will you be restoring the material of mine you overwrote in your edit? --Macrakis (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Article currently says that a frappé is made with "an electric mixer (e.g., a hand mixer)". In English, "electric mixer" usually means a Mixer (appliance), used for making cake batter, etc., and a "hand mixer" is the hand-held version of that, which surely isn't being used to make frappé coffee. I haven't been to Greece for a few years, but I imagine that what is intended here is rather a milkshake machine, an immersion blender, or a blender.
 * The section on the physics of the frothy top is (a) too detailed and (b) follows its source much too closely. I plan to cut down the detail.

 * First to the changes I overwrote: Comparing the current version with the version right before I overwrote you, I think I've restored all of the changes that still make sense with the exception of the changes you made to the Greek variations and terminology section. I don't love some of these changes and, if it's okay with you, I'd rather work together on this section (I'll make a Talk section about it). To be clear, I'm not trying to be a dick about anything! If there are any other changes you feel I've failed to revert, please point them out specifically, and I'll do my best to work them back in. So with that out of the way, on to mixers and physics!

 * Yes, an electric mixer is absolutely the wrong term for this. In the home, and in many smaller commercial settings an electric Milk frother is far and away the most common tool used, sometimes battery-powered but more often plug-in as they are more powerful. A lot of times these frothers are sold with a little wire stand that allows you to use them sort of like a milkshake machine. In a commercial setting where making frappes are a big part of their business, like beach bars and coffee shops, it's now pretty common to have a proper commercial machine like a milkshake machine. I've never worked at a place in America with a milkshake machine, so I don't know them very well, but I've worked in many cafes/bars in Greece I think the machines we have are a bit different than the milkshake machine being described in the article. From the looks of it less powerful, smaller, and with a different form factor. So, Idk if you would actually call them a "milkshake machine" in English (in Greek we just call them Frappe machines) but that article is definitely a closer match than an electric mixer. I support linking to both the milkshake machine and milk frother articles.

 * As for the physics section. I agree solidly on point B, it needs to be made less like its source. As for point B (about its detail), I agree its more detailed than is needed in a coffee article.... though, and I'm probably biased here because fluid dynamics is part of what I study and I'm a nerd, I do find it very interesting and wouldn't want to see the section cut down too, too much. I think the interesting physics going on is what differentiates the frappe from just cold instant coffee and I'd want enough detail in the section to make that clear. But I say go ahead and alter/cut it and we can talk about it as it goes. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 14:02, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Over written eddits in the Greek variations and terminology section
The main issues I have with these edits are the use of a "part : part" ratio. While I'm usually a fan of reducing drink recipes to their parts ratios, I don't think it works well here. I particularly don't love ": no sugar" which I don't think looks good at all. The other thing is that the listed tsp amounts are indeed the very standardized measurements used. Maybe "tsp" isn't the most correct unit to use because usually a heaping barspoon is used for each scoop, but (and I know this is technically original research) having taught many American friends how to make a good frappe, I can say with some certainty that heaping barspoons and tsp are good matches. I think these measurements are more useful to someone trying to learn how to make a frappe than the ratios alone, so I'm in favor of keeping them in the article.

The other little point in your changes that I'd like to quibble over is the use of "usually" or "traditionally" for the use of evaporated milk. Historically evaporated milk was always used in frappes because its what many Greeks used for most everything. Nowadays I'm it's really fair to say that evaporated milk is still the "usual" since many cafes now offer "fancier" coffees they have regular milks on hand all the time and often that is what they'll use to make a frappe. Last time I was in Greece (a few months ago) I noticed that in Athens at least regular milk seems to be the norm in many cafes.

Anyway, those are my two main disagreements. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 14:33, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I really doubt that American standard teaspoons are being used, and as you say, a heaping spoonful is not standardized. Why don't we simply say "spoonful"? Keep in mind that WP is not supposed to be a cookbook that can teach someone to make a dish.
 * I'm not sure I understand your objection to "no sugar".
 * "Traditionally" is a much-overused word on Wikipedia, implying some sort of well-defined tradition (see my essay on the topic). If we want to say that evaporated was formerly commonly used, and that fresh milk is now usually used, that's fine with me. But if all we're saying is that when evaporated milk was more common, evaporated was used, and now that fresh milk is more common, fresh is used, why bother to say it at all?
 * Best, --Macrakis (talk) 19:02, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Indeed, the standard tsp is not the measurement used in Greece. Τhe actual measurement used in Greece is the "κουταλάκια του γλυκού" (sweet spoon) which is the Greek equivalent to the tsp measurement (as opposed to a κουταλιά της σούπας (soup spoon) which is the Tbsp equivalent. While in my experience they are interchangeable for tsp/Tbsp, I'm almost certain there is no actual standardization for the Greek measurements. I'm perfectly happy with just saying spoonful.
 * My issue with the "no sugar" (and maybe this is pedantic) is that as far "1 : no" is not a ratio. It should really say "1: 0 sugar" but that's no good either.
 * I hear your point about traditionally being overused. Given the points in you (well written) essay am happy to change it. The reason I pushed for it is that, there's been push back from people about places moving away from using evaporated milk and many make a point of requesting evaporated milk explicitly if a cafe makes it with fresh milk, but those are really reasons to use the term "traditional" here. Though, having given this more thought, It might make more sense to drop the specification all together in this section and instead mention it in the preparation or history sections? It's not really needed here.
 * Would it be fair to call the use "original" given that the origin of the drink is so well known?
 * Cheers, --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 23:23, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 * My guess is that kafeneia use whatever milk is easily and commonly available to them, whether it's evaporated milk (NOYNOY Πλήρες), sweetened condensed milk (NOYNOY Ζαχαρούχο), UHT milk, or fresh milk. Which one is most common has changed over time. In the 1960's, UHT milk didn't exist and fresh milk was uncommon; if I remember correctly, the most common form of milk was the sweetened ΝΟΥΝΟΥ. Nowadays, it might be any of these. I doubt we can find a WP:Reliable Source documenting which kind of milk was used when, or even which kind(s) of milk are most common today, so it's probably best to just say "milk".
 * Re "original", the article currently says that it was made with water only, not milk at all! --Macrakis (talk) 19:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Good point about the original recipe! Is that true about sweetened Nounou being the standard in back in the 60's?? As someone who has only been around since the 80's that seems crazy! I feel like evaporated milk ought to mentioned somewhere in the article given how frequently it's referenced as the standard milk used in stories and recipes about frappes. The LA times article referenced here calls it's use "ubiquitous" in 2004, for example. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I remember the sweetened Nounou, but I may be wrong. Most people also don't know the difference between "condensed" and "evaporated" milk, anyway. If the preponderance of recipes and articles about frappé coffee mentions evaporated, fine! Personal experience, on the other hand, is not a good guide. For all I know, maybe they use sweetened Nounou in Poros, unsweetened Nounou in Paros, fresh milk in Pyrgos, and UHT milk in Patmos. --Macrakis (talk) 14:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Nescafé frappé
If I remember correctly, the most common name in 1970-1985 was not "café frappé", but "Nescafé frappé". I don't know if that's still the case, but Νεσκαφέ φραπέ still shows up in recent documents on the web. Shouldn't that name be mentioned, even if it is no longer the most common name? --Macrakis (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I would no. I've never heard of Νεσκαφέ φραπέ being used for the drink, except to specify the brand of coffee being used. Like how an American might say "a Folger's coffee". I assume the term is showing up on places because of this. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 19:33, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, if it's no longer in use, I guess it's of historical interest only.
 * But it wasn't a matter of specifying a brand -- it was the opposite: Nescafé was a genericized trademark for instant coffee in Greece, the way in Italy they say caffè HAG for decaf. --Macrakis (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It turns out that the Internet Archive finds 69 hits for ["frappe coffee"], 28 for ["nescafe frappe"], and 8 for ["greek frappe"].
 * Subtracting out the chess opening (Nescafé Frappé Attack) and the ads leaves 20 hits for ["nescafe frappe"], many of them novels set in Greece. On the other hand, most of the hits for ["frappe coffee"] are not about the Greek-style drink at all.
 * So I think there's a good case for including that name. --Macrakis (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Yep, I'm convinced. The edits look great. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 18:30, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Frappé coffee


text:
Category:Dog breeds

Concerning main articles, see: See also:
 * Dog breed, for information about what a dog breed is.
 * List of dog breeds, for a complete list of breed names, including many known variants, whether or not there are existing articles.
 * Dog type for information about the original types from which breeds were created.
 * Category:Dog types for groups of breeds such as collies, fox terriers, working dogs, hounds, and so on.

title: Category:Dog breeds