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User:Securiger/Crypto Stubs

The following list was generated by Securiger on 3 May 2004 as a (very rough) guide for which cryptography articles require work. All articles listed in list of cryptography topics were scanned by a simple, read-only bot, (with a long sleep loop between reads to play nice) and the number of bytes counted. Accuracy not guaranteed, and I do not plan to update this list frequently.
 * 28 Tunny (cryptography) (a redirect)
 * 30 ISAAC (cryptography) (a redirect)
 * 33 Claude Shannon (a redirect)
 * 100 FreeLIP
 * 118 Baby-step giant-step
 * 132 Scott Vanstone
 * 211 Key schedule
 * 245 Frank A. Stevenson
 * 262 Direct anonymous attestation
 * 279 Privacy-enhanced Electronic Mail
 * 291 Henryk Zygalski
 * 295 David Chaum
 * 298 COMSEC equipment
 * 299 Journal of Cryptology
 * 301 Financial cryptography
 * 308 Joseph Mauborgne
 * 321 CAcert
 * 323 Solomon Kullback
 * 329 Confidentiality
 * 331 Cryptology ePrint Archive
 * 334 Ralph Merkle
 * 337 Cryptomathic
 * 373 Timing attack
 * 396 WHIRLPOOL
 * 397 SEAL (cipher)
 * 405 Communications Security Establishment
 * 427 Dorabella Cipher
 * 427 Joan Daemen
 * 436 Cryptologia
 * 441 MD5CRK
 * 462 GOST
 * 464 David Wheeler
 * 471 International Association for Cryptologic Research
 * 476 CryptoBuddy
 * 476 List of famous ciphertexts
 * 485 CryptoStick
 * 487 PMAC
 * 491 Zimmerman-Sassaman key-signing protocol
 * 503 Blaise de Vigenère
 * 522 Null cipher
 * 528 Cover (telecommunications)
 * 533 Attacker
 * 541 Torus based cryptography
 * 554 Crypto: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government Saving Privacy in the Digital Age
 * 567 Key signing party
 * 568 Iraqi block cipher
 * 574 Enigmail
 * 575 Tiger (hash)
 * 584 RSA Security
 * 585 A5/2
 * 596 Pike (cipher)
 * 597 MD4
 * 604 OMAC
 * 606 Taher ElGamal
 * 614 Crypto AG
 * 624 A5/1
 * 624 Niels Ferguson
 * 629 Daniel J. Bernstein
 * 629 Eli Biham
 * 633 CRYPTO
 * 634 WAKE
 * 637 Passive attack
 * 640 Cryptographie indéchiffrable
 * 645 Chaffing and winnowing
 * 650 OpenSSL
 * 654 Atbash cipher
 * 659 Random oracle
 * 660 OpenPGP
 * 669 Cryptochannel
 * 670 Communication Theory of Secrecy Systems
 * 673 Crib
 * 707 Elliptic Curve DSA
 * 713 Gardening (cryptanalysis)
 * 721 Mitsuru Matsui
 * 723 David Kahn
 * 724 Covert channel
 * 729 Jerzy Rozycki
 * 730 Defence Signals Directorate
 * 730 Great Cypher
 * 732 Decrypt
 * 740 Known-plaintext attack
 * 745 Internet key exchange
 * 745 S-1
 * 745 Visual cryptography
 * 763 Confusion and diffusion
 * 767 Don Coppersmith
 * 783 Central Security Service
 * 786 Horst Feistel
 * 804 Book cipher
 * 814 Cryptographic Message Syntax
 * 815 Oblivious transfer
 * 825 The Codebreakers
 * 828 Ciphertext-only attack
 * 863 Martin Hellman
 * 864 Bit-flipping attack
 * 869 Codebook
 * 871 S/MIME
 * 872 Type 2 product
 * 874 Secret decoder ring
 * 879 GDES
 * 879 Garble
 * 897 John Tiltman
 * 897 Product cipher
 * 910 Cipherspace
 * 920 Étienne Bazeries
 * 932 Security protocol notation
 * 934 Template:Classical cryptography
 * 936 Chosen ciphertext attack
 * 936 Friedrich Kasiski
 * 942 Wide Mouth Frog
 * 943 Dining cryptographers protocol
 * 951 Arthur Scherbius
 * 962 Paillier cryptosystem
 * 962 Snuffle
 * 965 Boris Hagelin
 * 966 Arne Beurling
 * 987 MARS
 * 991 Blind credential
 * 991 GMR
 * 1002 Rabin cryptosystem
 * 1003 Arlington Hall
 * 1008 KY-57
 * 1009 Distributed.net
 * 1011 SYSKEY
 * 1015 Undeniable signature
 * 1017 Snefru
 * 1021 Microdot
 * 1029 Key management
 * 1041 Substitution-permutation network
 * 1047 Rubber-hose cryptanalysis
 * 1065 Certificateless Cryptography
 * 1066 Red Pike
 * 1067 Crypto-society
 * 1081 Keyed-hash message authentication code
 * 1085 VIC cipher
 * 1089 Peter Gutmann
 * 1089 Shrinking generator
 * 1095 Root certificate
 * 1107 Yarrow algorithm
 * 1123 TICOM
 * 1130 Self-certifying key
 * 1134 Max Newman
 * 1136 Vincent Rijmen
 * 1139 Ross Anderson
 * 1144 Cryptogram
 * 1146 Encode
 * 1146 Message Authentication Code
 * 1159 Cryptome
 * 1165 Secure Key Issuing Cryptography
 * 1176 Square (cipher)
 * 1177 Key server
 * 1180 Key derivation function
 * 1183 Schnorr signature
 * 1222 Diplomatic bag
 * 1224 Otway-Rees
 * 1232 Encryption
 * 1240 Russian copulation
 * 1243 Trapdoor function
 * 1245 Cryptographically strong
 * 1248 FISH (cryptography)
 * 1280 Biuro Szyfrow
 * 1281 Babington plot
 * 1319 Hyperelliptic curve cryptography
 * 1321 Gilbert Vernam
 * 1330 Bernstein v. United States
 * 1354 David Wagner
 * 1354 Serpent (cipher)
 * 1364 Electronic signature
 * 1368 HTTPS
 * 1369 PKCS
 * 1372 NTRUEncrypt
 * 1380 Rijndael
 * 1411 MAGENTA
 * 1414 Hushmail
 * 1417 Edward Hebern
 * 1421 Template:Block ciphers
 * 1422 Cleartext
 * 1422 Key-agreement protocol
 * 1423 Electronic money
 * 1443 KHAZAD
 * 1453 Affine cipher
 * 1458 Certificate-based encryption
 * 1459 Physical security
 * 1464 W. T. Tutte
 * 1466 CAST-256
 * 1469 James H. Ellis
 * 1470 SHARK
 * 1471 Cryptographic protocol
 * 1475 Decipherment
 * 1488 KASUMI
 * 1490 MISTY1
 * 1493 RC6
 * 1517 Wired Equivalent Privacy
 * 1518 DigiCipher 2
 * 1526 Glossary of telecommunications encryption terms
 * 1540 Cipher Block Chaining
 * 1544 Cyphertext
 * 1547 Poem code
 * 1550 Camellia (cipher)
 * 1550 LOKI97
 * 1558 Type 1 product
 * 1563 Adi Shamir
 * 1570 RIPEMD-160
 * 1575 Session key
 * 1577 Clifford Cocks
 * 1582 Tabula recta
 * 1582 Twofish
 * 1583 Message digest
 * 1597 Blinding (cryptography)
 * 1602 Ron Rivest
 * 1603 Cypherpunk
 * 1623 Communications security
 * 1626 Herbert Yardley
 * 1666 Symmetric key algorithm
 * 1671 DES-X
 * 1714 Linear cryptanalysis
 * 1720 Chosen plaintext attack
 * 1723 PC Bruno
 * 1739 Common Scrambling Algorithm
 * 1754 Cipher
 * 1775 Key escrow
 * 1785 3-Way
 * 1797 OpenSSH
 * 1803 Hans Thilo-Schmidt
 * 1814 LibTom Project
 * 1825 Blowfish (cipher)
 * 1867 Commitment scheme
 * 1875 Dictionary attack
 * 1876 Initialization vector
 * 1890 Needham-Schroeder
 * 1891 Tamper resistance
 * 1911 Adaptive chosen ciphertext attack
 * 1937 40-bit encryption
 * 1943 Digital timestamping
 * 1944 Cryptonomicon
 * 1955 The Gold Bug
 * 1971 Crypto system
 * 1975 Kerberos
 * 1993 ElGamal discrete log cryptosystem
 * 1994 Key distribution center
 * 2001 Bruce Schneier
 * 2010 Dmitry Sklyarov
 * 2040 Whitfield Diffie
 * 2064 Permutation cipher
 * 2086 Stream cipher
 * 2110 Kerckhoffs' law
 * 2133 Blum Blum Shub
 * 2157 Knapsack problem
 * 2161 Block size (cryptography)
 * 2175 Linear feedback shift register
 * 2187 Man in the middle attack
 * 2199 Phil Zimmermann
 * 2205 Triple DES
 * 2223 Cryptographically secure pseudo-random number generator
 * 2234 SIGINT
 * 2246 Public key certificate
 * 2250 Discrete logarithm
 * 2251 Scrambler
 * 2252 Skipjack (cipher)
 * 2304 ID-based cryptography
 * 2317 Secure shell
 * 2348 One way function
 * 2349 Unicity distance
 * 2349 X.509
 * 2350 Merkle-Hellman
 * 2365 TEMPEST
 * 2381 Brute force attack
 * 2389 Lorenz cypher
 * 2392 Stegotext
 * 2432 Content-scrambling system
 * 2454 JN-25
 * 2454 Wi-Fi Protected Access
 * 2472 Auguste Kerckhoffs
 * 2494 Zeroise
 * 2509 Advanced Encryption Standard process
 * 2542 Security engineering
 * 2543 Illegal prime
 * 2560 Leonard Adleman
 * 2563 Lucifer (cipher)
 * 2576 Digital Signature Algorithm
 * 2582 Cryptographic hash function
 * 2605 XTEA
 * 2626 Key authentication
 * 2661 Characters in cryptography
 * 2695 Polybius square
 * 2701 Padding (cryptography)
 * 2753 Web of trust
 * 2758 Frank Rowlett
 * 2759 Kryptos
 * 2761 Pseudonymity
 * 2786 Beale ciphers
 * 2790 CAST-128
 * 2794 Secure cryptoprocessor
 * 2867 Index of coincidence
 * 2870 ADFGVX cipher
 * 2871 MD5
 * 2903 Trusted Third Party
 * 2906 The Magic Words are Squeamish Ossifrage
 * 2913 Louis W. Tordella
 * 2928 RC5
 * 2930 Certificate authority
 * 2938 Joseph Rochefort
 * 2956 Pass phrase
 * 3024 Laurence Safford
 * 3036 Geheimfernschreiber
 * 3132 Leone Battista Alberti
 * 3161 Snake oil
 * 3173 Agnes Meyer Driscoll
 * 3275 Diffie-Hellman key exchange
 * 3296 Caesar cipher
 * 3313 International Data Encryption Algorithm
 * 3417 Government Communications Headquarters
 * 3459 Scytale
 * 3476 IPSec
 * 3493 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
 * 3531 Certificate Revocation List
 * 3531 Secure channel
 * 3536 Feistel cipher
 * 3536 Tiny Encryption Algorithm
 * 3552 NESSIE
 * 3753 Blind signature
 * 3816 Autokey cipher
 * 3862 GNU Privacy Guard
 * 3863 VENONA project
 * 3870 Leo Marks
 * 4016 Block cipher modes of operation
 * 4040 Key exchange
 * 4077 Invisible ink
 * 4080 Polyalphabetic cipher
 * 4082 Marian Rejewski
 * 4185 Crypto-anarchism
 * 4205 Information security
 * 4221 Typex
 * 4250 Bombe
 * 4266 Transport Layer Security
 * 4276 FEAL
 * 4337 Meet-in-the-middle attack
 * 4411 Authentication
 * 4420 Computer surveillance
 * 4484 Code talkers
 * 4539 Clipper chip
 * 4573 Steganalysis
 * 4592 Magic (cryptography)
 * 4624 RC4 (cipher)
 * 4667 Block cipher
 * 4737 SHA-1
 * 4812 Differential cryptanalysis
 * 4924 Zimmermann Telegram
 * 4928 Playfair cipher
 * 5031 ROT13
 * 5055 Cryptanalysis
 * 5082 Plaintext
 * 5126 Traffic analysis
 * 5381 SAFER
 * 5450 Security through obscurity
 * 5708 Asymmetric key algorithm
 * 5894 Straddling checkerboard
 * 5993 Elliptic curve cryptography
 * 6059 Pseudorandom number generator
 * 6116 WikiProject Cryptography
 * 6126 Advanced Encryption Standard
 * 6143 Zero-knowledge proof
 * 6287 Hebern Rotor Machine
 * 6294 Substitution box
 * 6481 Colossus computer
 * 6496 National Security Agency
 * 6708 Public-key cryptography
 * 6813 Abraham Sinkov
 * 6918 Key (cryptography)
 * 7019 Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cryptography
 * 7069 Bletchley Park
 * 7209 Frequency analysis
 * 7297 Vigenère
 * 7330 DeCSS
 * 7365 Password cracking
 * 7492 Key size
 * 7540 ECHELON
 * 7664 Transposition cipher
 * 7775 Cryptographic engineering
 * 7860 Ultra
 * 7982 Running key cipher
 * 8080 Public key infrastructure
 * 8175 Key signature
 * 8239 Burrows-Abadi-Needham logic
 * 8611 SIGABA
 * 8719 Purple code
 * 9417 CRYPTREC
 * 9435 Secret sharing
 * 9456 Code
 * 9526 Fritz-chip
 * 9801 One-time pad
 * 9892 Steganography
 * 10378 Digital signature
 * 10542 Data Encryption Standard
 * 10662 Password
 * 10712 Electronic voting
 * 10773 Alan Turing
 * 11171 RSA
 * 11297 List of cryptographers
 * 11589 William F. Friedman
 * 11654 Elizebeth Friedman
 * 12181 Anonymous remailer
 * 12951 Quantum cryptography
 * 13816 Computer insecurity
 * 14164 Rotor machine
 * 14451 Books on cryptography
 * 16200 Topics in cryptography
 * 16791 Cryptography
 * 17349 Substitution cipher
 * 17726 Hardware random number generator
 * 17899 History of cryptography
 * 18704 Pretty Good Privacy
 * 19994 Digital rights management
 * 32657 Voynich Manuscript
 * 38272 Enigma machine

title: User:Securiger/Crypto Stubs


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Talk:Encyclopedia of Public Health

Is this an ad? -- user:zanimum

No, and I am not connected in any way with the publishers or with any bookseller, anywhere.

I must admit though that this publication is not as worthy of having an encyclopedia article as the Control of Communicable Diseases Manual, which has saved countless lives through the 20th century and will probably save more during the 21st.

But I would ask you to please not delete it just yet, since I am using it as an example for templates for WikiProject_Books. AlainV 02:49, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Encyclopedia of Public Health


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Ralph Kiner

Ralph McPherran Kiner (October 27, 1922 – February 6, 2014) was an American Major League Baseball player and broadcaster. An outfielder, Kiner played for the Pittsburgh Pirates, Chicago Cubs, and Cleveland Indians from 1946 through 1955.

Following his retirement, Kiner served from 1956 through 1960 as general manager of the Pacific Coast League San Diego Padres. He also served as an announcer for the New York Mets from the team's inception until his death. Though injuries forced his retirement from active play after 10 seasons, Kiner led all of his National League contemporaries in home runs between 1946 and 1952. He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1975.

After his death, Kiner was named "one of baseball's genuine and most charming gentlemen" by baseball writer Marty Noble.

Early life
Kiner was born in Santa Rita, New Mexico to Beatrice ( Grayson) and Ralph Macklin Kiner. His father died when Ralph was four and his mother took a job in Alhambra, California where Kiner was subsequently raised. He was of Pennsylvania Dutch and Scots-Irish descent, with German-Jewish ancestry through his maternal grandmother. Kiner graduated from Alhambra High School in Alhambra, California.

World War II Service
Kiner served as a U.S. Navy pilot during World War II.

Kiner was inducted into the Navy during the spring of 1943. As a cadet, he attended St. Mary's Pre-Flight School in California and earned his pilot's wings and commission at Corpus Christi, Texas in December 1944. Kiner flew PBM Mariner flying boats on submarine patrols from Naval Air Station (NAS) Kaneohe Bay in Hawaii, accumulating 1,200 flying hours. Kiner enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor.

Playing career (1946–1955)
Kiner made his major league debut on April 12, 1946, with the Pittsburgh Pirates. He finished the season with 23 home runs, but 109 strikeouts. After the season, the Pirates convinced future Hall of Famer Hank Greenberg not to retire. Greenberg gave Kiner hours of instruction, and in 1947, Kiner led the major leagues with 51 home runs while striking out fewer than 100 times. Many of Kiner's homers were hit into a shortened left-field and left-center-field porch at Forbes Field (originally built for Greenberg and known in the press as "Greenberg Gardens"); the porch was retained for Kiner and redubbed "Kiner's Korner". Kiner would later use "Kiner's Korner" as the title of his post-game TV show in New York.

In 1949, Kiner topped his 1947 total with 54 home runs, falling just two short of Hack Wilson's then-National League record. It was the highest total in the major leagues from 1939 to 1960, and the highest National League total from 1931 to 1997. It made Kiner the first National League player with two 50 plus home run seasons. Kiner also matched his peak of 127 RBIs. From 1947 to 1951, Kiner topped 40 home runs and 100 RBIs each season. Through 2011 he was one of seven major leaguers to have had at least four 30-HR, 100-RBI seasons in their first five years, along with Chuck Klein, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Mark Teixeira, Albert Pujols, Ryan Howard and Ryan Braun.

Kiner's string of seasons leading the league in home runs reached seven in 1952, when he hit 37. This also was the last of a record six consecutive seasons in which he led Major League Baseball in home runs, all under the guidance of manager Billy Meyer and Pirate great Honus Wagner. He was selected to participate in the All-Star Game in six straight seasons, 1948 to 1953.

The equally famous "Home run hitters drive Cadillacs and singles hitters drive Fords," frequently misattributed to Kiner himself, was, by his own account, actually coined by teammate Fritz Ostermueller. Footage of Kiner hitting a home run in Forbes Field can be seen in the 1951 film Angels in the Outfield.

On June 4, 1953, Kiner was sent to the Chicago Cubs as part of a ten-player trade. The Pirates traded Kiner, Joe Garagiola, George Metkovich, and Howie Pollet to the Cubs in exchange for Bob Addis, Toby Atwell, George Freese, Gene Hermanski, Bob Schultz, Preston Ward, and $150,000. This was largely due to continued salary disputes with Pirates general manager Branch Rickey, who reportedly told Kiner, "We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

Kiner played the rest of 1953 and all of 1954 with the Cubs, finishing his career with the Cleveland Indians in 1955. A back injury forced him to retire at the age of 32, finishing his career with 369 home runs, 1,015 runs batted in and a .279 lifetime batting average. He hit better than .300 three times, with a career best .313 with the Pirates in 1947.

Broadcasting career (1961–2013)
In 1961, Kiner entered the broadcast booth for the Chicago White Sox. The following year, Kiner, Lindsey Nelson, and Bob Murphy began broadcasting the games of the expansion New York Mets on WOR-TV in New York City. The trio rotated announcing duties. Kiner also hosted a post-game show known as "Kiner's Korner" on WOR-TV. Nationally, he helped call the Mets' appearance in the 1969 and 1973 World Series for NBC Radio. He won a local Emmy Award for his broadcasting work.

Kiner was known for his occasional malapropisms, usually connected with getting people's names wrong, such as calling broadcasting partner Tim McCarver as "Tim MacArthur" and calling Gary Carter "Gary Cooper". He even once called himself "Ralph Korner".

Despite a bout with Bell's palsy, which left him with slightly slurred speech, Kiner continued broadcasting for 53 seasons. Kiner's tenure with the Mets was the third-longest for an active broadcaster with a single team as of his final season. He is the third longest-tenured broadcaster in baseball history, trailing only Los Angeles Dodgers announcers Vin Scully (1950–2016) and Jaime Jarrín (1959–2022). His traditional home run call—"It is gone, goodbye," was a signature phrase in baseball.

As illness reduced his appearances, Kiner featured less frequently on SportsNet New York (SNY) and WPIX, which currently televise Mets games. During these visits (usually once a week), regular announcers Gary Cohen, Keith Hernandez, and Ron Darling would welcome Kiner as he shared stories of the Golden Age of baseball, as well as the contemporary game. During his final season in 2013, he was the oldest active announcer in Major League Baseball.

Personal life
Partly owing to the fact that Hollywood megastar Bing Crosby was part-owner of the Pirates, Kiner was often closely linked with celebrities such as Crosby's colleague Bob Hope and Frank Sinatra, but even more to publicized romances, dates, or photos with leading ladies, such as Elizabeth Taylor, Ava Gardner, and Janet Leigh. He was Taylor's date to the premiere of Twelve O'Clock High in 1949 and began dating Leigh when Angels in the Outfield was being filmed at Forbes Field.

Kiner was married four times; his first spouse was 1950s tennis star Nancy Chaffee from 1951 to 1968. They had three children together: Michael, Scott, and Kathryn.

Kiner was also married to Barbara (née George) Kiner from 1969 to 1980, and to DiAnn Kiner from 1982 until her death in 2004.

In his 80s, Kiner married, then divorced, Ann Benisch.

He is the second cousin twice removed of MLB infielder Isiah Kiner-Falefa.

Death
Ralph Kiner died from natural causes in Rancho Mirage, California, on February 6, 2014, at the age of 91. Upon his death, New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon said, "Ralph Kiner was one of the most beloved people in Mets history - an original Met and extraordinary gentleman." At the time of his death, Kiner had been battling Bell's palsy, and the effects of a stroke that he had suffered a decade prior that forced him to reduce his broadcast schedule to a handful of games a season.

On February 21, 2014, an online Twitter petition was started to rename Citi Field Sections 132–134 as 'Kiner's Korner', to commemorate the 52-year Mets career of Ralph Kiner. As of March 29, 2014, the petition had over 5,000 followers.

Legacy
Kiner was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1975. Kiner had garnered 273 votes by the Baseball Writers' Association of America, one more than the minimum required for election. It was in his final year of eligibility (his 13th, as no vote was held in 1963 and 1965), and it was the closest call possible for any player elected by the BBWAA. (He would have had a chance later with the Veterans Committee had he not been elected by the BBWAA). Kiner was also the only player voted in that year. He attended every Hall of Fame ceremony from the time he was inducted until his death.

Kiner was elected to the New York Mets Hall of Fame in 1984.

The Pittsburgh Pirates retired his uniform number 4 on September 19, 1987. He was inducted into the Pirates Hall of Fame in 2022 as part of the inaugural class.

In 1999, The Sporting News placed Kiner at number 90 on its list of "The 100 Greatest Baseball Players". That same year, he was one of the 100 finalists for the Major League Baseball All-Century Team that year.

The Mets honored him with an on-field ceremony on "Ralph Kiner Night" at Shea Stadium on Saturday, July 14, 2007. On that night, fans were given photos of Kiner. Franchise icon Tom Seaver gave a commemorative speech recalling Kiner's legacy. Other guests of note were Yogi Berra, Bob Feller, and broadcaster Ernie Harwell. To honor his tenure, the Mets announced that the home broadcast booth at future home Citi Field would be named for Kiner (the booth at Shea had previously been named for him in 2002). As a present from the Mets, Kiner received a cruise of his choice.

In 2013, the Bob Feller Act of Valor Award honored Kiner as one of 37 Baseball Hall of Fame members for his service in the United States Navy during World War II.

In 2014, the Mets "retired" Kiner's broadcast microphone and added a logo featuring his name, dates and a vintage broadcast microphone to the left-field wall at Citi Field. They also wore patches with the logo for the season. The logo was later moved from the wall to the stadium's top tier alongside the franchise's other non-player honorees.

title: Ralph Kiner


text:
Grachan Moncur II

Grachan Moncur II (sometimes credited as Grachan Moncur, born September 2, 1915 – November 3, 1996) was an American jazz bassist with the Savoy Sultans.

Early life
Moncur was a multi-instrumentalist as a teenager, learning trombone, tuba, and double bass while growing up in Miami.

Career
After moving to Newark, New Jersey, Moncur began playing bass on a local radio station, where John Hammond heard him. Hammond brought Moncur in for studio sessions in 1935–36 with Mildred Bailey, Bunny Berigan, Putney Dandridge, Bud Freeman, and Teddy Wilson. He was a founding member of the Savoy Sultans, playing with the group until 1945. Later in the 1940s, he worked with Ike Quebec and Ace Harris. His discography roster also showed he played sessions with baritone and bass saxophones in various 1930s and 1940s recordings.

Moncur returned to Miami in the 1950s, where he remained active until late in the 1960s.

Personal life
Moncur was the half-brother of Al Cooper and the father of jazz trombonist Grachan Moncur III.

title: Grachan Moncur II


text:
Forbes Field

Forbes Field was a baseball park in the Oakland neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, from 1909 to June 28, 1970. It was the third home of the Pittsburgh Pirates, the city's Major League Baseball (MLB) team, and the first home of the Pittsburgh Steelers, the city's National Football League (NFL) franchise. From 1909 to 1924, the stadium also served as the home football field for the University of Pittsburgh "Pitt" Panthers. The stadium sat on Forbes Avenue, named for British general John Forbes, who fought in the French and Indian War and named the city in 1758.

The US$1 million ($0 million today) project was launched by Pittsburgh Pirates' owner Barney Dreyfuss to replace his franchise's second home, Exposition Park. The stadium was made of concrete and steel, the first such stadium in the National League and third in Major League Baseball, in a bid to be more durable than wooden ballparks. The Pirates opened Forbes Field on June 30, 1909, against the Chicago Cubs, and played the final game against the Cubs on June 28, 1970. The field itself featured a large playing surface, with the batting cage placed in the deepest part of center field during games. Seating was altered multiple times throughout the stadium's life; at times fans were permitted to sit on the grass in the outfield during overflow crowds. The Pirates won three World Series while at Forbes Field; the Pittsburgh Panthers football team had five undefeated seasons before moving in 1924. In 1958, broadcaster Bob Prince dubbed Forbes Field "The House of Thrills" for the then-resurgent Pirates and several games that saw late-inning heroics.

Some remnants of the ballpark still stand, surrounded by the campus of the University of Pittsburgh. Fans gather on the site annually on the anniversary of Bill Mazeroski's World Series winning home run, in what author Jim O'Brien writes is "one of the most unique expressions of a love of the game to be found in a major league city".

Planning and design
In 1903, Pittsburgh Pirates' owner Barney Dreyfuss began to look for ground to build a larger capacity replacement for the team's then-current home, Exposition Park. Dreyfuss purchased seven acres of land near the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh, adjacent to Schenley Park, with assistance from his friend, industrialist Andrew Carnegie. The low-priced land was selected so Dreyfuss could spend more on the stadium itself. Dreyfuss signed a contract to "make the ballpark ... of a design that would harmonize with the other structures in the Schenley Park district." The site was initially labeled "Dreyfuss's Folly" due to its long distance—a 10-minute trolley ride—from downtown Pittsburgh, but the land around the park developed and criticisms were dropped. Official Pirates' records show that Forbes Field cost US$1 million for site acquisition and construction. However, some estimates place the cost at twice that amount. Dreyfuss announced that unlike established wooden ballparks such as the Polo Grounds, he would build a three-tiered stadium out of steel and concrete to increase longevity—the first of its kind in the nation. Charles Wellford Leavitt Jr. was contracted to design the stadium's grandstand. A civil engineer, Leavitt had founded an engineering and landscape architecture firm in 1897. He had gained experience in steel and concrete constructs while designing the Belmont and Saratoga racetracks. Based on Dreyfuss' architectural requirements, Leavitt presented a plan for Forbes Field—the only ballpark he designed. Pirates' manager Fred Clarke also had input into the stadium's design, giving groundskeepers advice on the field, in addition to designing and patenting a device to spread and remove a canvas tarpaulin over the infield in case of rain.

Initial work on the land began on January 1, 1909, but ground was not officially broken until March 1. Nicola Building Company built the stadium in 122 days and play began less than four months after ground was broken, on June 30. Though the scoreboard was operated by hand, the ballpark featured multiple innovations such as ramps and elevators to assist fan movement throughout the park, a room for the umpires, and a visiting team clubhouse similar to the Pirates'. The facade of the stadium featured "buff-colored terra cotta" spelling out "PAC" for the Pittsburgh Athletic Company. The light green steelwork contrasted with the red slate of the roof. Some members of the press urged Dreyfuss to name the stadium after himself. Instead, he decided to honor General John Forbes, who captured Fort Duquesne from the French in 1758 and rebuilt a new "Fort Pitt" at the site.

After Dreyfuss died in 1935, there was renewed media interest in renaming the stadium "Dreyfuss Field". His widow, Florence, resisted. However, a monument to Dreyfuss was placed in center field just in front of the wall.

Opening
The first game was played at Forbes Field on June 30, 1909, one day after the Pittsburgh Pirates had defeated the Chicago Cubs, 8–1, at Exposition Park. Fans began to arrive at the stadium six and one-half hours early for the 3:30 p.m. game. Weather conditions were reported as clear skies with a temperature around 80 degrees. Flags flew at half staff to honor the recently deceased presidents of the Philadelphia Phillies and the Boston Doves. Various National League officials and owners attended the pre-game ceremonies, including league president Harry Pulliam, Civil War veteran and manager of Pittsburgh's first professional baseball team Al Pratt, and American League president Ban Johnson. Pittsburgh Mayor William A. Magee threw out the stadium's ceremonial first pitch, tossing it from the second tier to John M. Morin, Director of Public Safety, on the field below. Morin then went to the mound and threw the first pitch to the Pirate catcher.

The Pittsburgh Press wrote, "the ceremonies were witnessed by the largest throng that ever attended an event of this kind in this or any other city in the country...Forbes Field is so immense—so far beyond anything else in America in the way of a baseball park—that old experts, accustomed to judging crowds at a glance, were at a loss for reasonable figures." Records, however, show that the first game was attended by a standing-room only crowd of 30,338.

The first batter at Forbes Field was future Hall of Famer Johnny Evers, the Cubs second baseman and leadoff batter. He was hit by a pitch and later in the inning scored the first run. The first hit by a Pirate was by catcher George Gibson, who eventually became a Pirate manager. The Chicago Cubs won the first game, 3–2. Dreyfuss declared, "This is indeed the happiest day of my life."

Playing field evolution
The stadium was widely considered the best in the league.

Dreyfuss "hated cheap home runs and vowed he'd have none in his park", which led him to design a large playing field for Forbes Field. The original distances to the outfield fences in left, center, and right field were 360 ft, 462 ft and 376 ft, respectively.

The left field foul pole initially intersected the bleacher section about two-thirds of the way toward where the bleacher corner touched the fence, at a distance of 301 ft,[Pittsburgh Daily Post, June 27, 1909, p. 30], leaving a narrow slice which could benefit a strict pull hitter, but which soon proved bothersome to left fielders.

In the early spring of 1912, the diamond was shifted so that the left field foul line intersected the end of the left field fence rather than the bleacher section.[Pittsburgh Press, March 3, 1912, p. 20] By 1914, the left field distance was stated as 365 ft,[Pittsburgh Press, August 25, 1914, p. 20] which eventually became the distance marked on the fence.

In 1921, the seating capacity was increased by the addition of several rows of new box seats.[Pittsburgh Press, February 13, 1921, pp. 15][Pittsburgh Daily Post, February 13, 1921, p. 18]

In 1925, seating capacity received a bigger bump when the right field grandstand was extended into the corner and into fair territory, replacing a section of wooden bleachers. Construction of the new stands began in late winter and opened in June 1925.

The change reduced the foul line distance from 376 ft to 300 ft but increasing the near-right center distance to 375 ft. Dreyfuss made no secret of his mixed feelings regarding this move, and in May 1930, in response to American League President E. S. Barnard's proposed plan to stem the recent flood of sub-350-foot home runs, Dreyfuss readily complied by erecting a 28 ft high screen.

Even at this long distance from home plate, the fence stood 12 ft in height in left and center fields, with the new right field wall reduced to 9.5 ft following the 1925 construction (later topped by the screen). The backstop was set at 110 ft behind home plate, larger than the average of 60 ft in most stadiums of the time. Additional seating eventually cut down the plate-to-screen distance to a still larger-than-average 75 ft.

With such a large outfield space, triples and inside-the-park home runs were common. The Pirates hit a record eight triples in a single game, on May 30, 1925. Conversely, the stadium was one of the most difficult to hit over-the-fence home runs. The closeness of the right field line from 1925 onward was the only area that compromised Dreyfuss' original design concept. Even at that, the right field wall angled sharply out to 375 ft, a typical distance for a major league power alley. Babe Ruth hit the final three home runs of his career in Forbes Field on May 25, 1935; the third of these cleared the 89 ft right field roof and was considered the longest home run in the park's history.

The last major change to the outfield came in 1946, when the fence in left and center was replaced by a brick wall.[Pittsburgh Press, December 2, 1945, p. 36] The fence had been painted green, while the bricks were of a reddish color. Ivy was planted at the base of the new wall, restoring the green background enjoyed by batters.[Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph, April 21, 1946, p. 21]

Although Forbes Field developed a reputation as a "pitcher-friendly" ballpark, there was never a no-hitter thrown in the more than 4,700 games at the stadium.

The field itself consisted of natural grass grown in Crestline, Ohio.

Until 1942, Forbes Field's batting cage, when not in use, was stored on the field, in front of the stands directly behind home plate, a bare-bones but viable solution rendered obsolete by the introduction that season of a new, considerably larger cage. During that season and part of 1943, the new cage resided in foul territory, down the right field line, near the Pirates' bullpen. At some point prior to July 26, 1943, evidently prompted by numerous instances of the relocated cage continuing to impact balls in play, the Pirates finally settled on what would become its permanent and, by far, best-remembered home: in fair territory, just to the left of the 457 ft marker in deepest left-center. The open part of the cage faced the wall, its rear effectively serving as a convex fence, somewhat akin to that surrounding the base of the light tower standing just to the left (as well as those surrounding the left field and right-center field towers). Unlike the batting cage and the flagpole just to its right, the light towers themselves—as opposed to the aforementioned fences—were not in play; a batted ball striking any one of them, or landing inside the surrounding fence, was a home run.

In 1947, well after Dreyfuss' death, and upon the arrival of veteran slugger Hank Greenberg, the bullpens were moved from foul territory to the base of the scoreboard in left field and were fenced in, cutting 30 ft from the left field area, from 365 ft to 335 ft down the line and 406 ft to 376 ft in left-center field. These were not abnormal major league outfield distances, but the obvious attempt to take advantage of Greenberg's bat led the media to dub the area "Greenberg Gardens". Greenberg retired after the season, but by then Ralph Kiner was an established slugger with the Pirates, and the bullpen was redubbed "Kiner's Korner". Kiner was traded after the 1953 season, and the field was restored to its previous configuration in time for the 1954 season.

The final posted dimensions of the ballpark were left field line 365 ft, left-center field 406 ft, deepest left-center 457 ft, deep right-center 436 ft, right-center field 375 ft, and right field line 300 ft. The only marker in exact straightaway center field was the Barney Dreyfuss monument, which sat on the playing field just in front of the wall. Some sources stated 442 ft as the distance to straightaway center. Some sources also stated 408 ft as a right-center distance, to the unmarked point where the center field wall intersected the end of the double-deck stands.

Forbes Field's outfield fences / walls featured no advertising, except a 32 ft United States Marine Corps billboard during the 1943 season.

The infield developed a "rock-hard" surface throughout the stadium's history. During the final game of the 1960 World Series, Yankees shortstop Tony Kubek was struck in the throat with a ball that bounced at an unexpected angle off the hard dirt surface, breaking up a potentially rally-killing double play and causing Kubek to exit the game. Pittsburgh went on to win the game and the championship. Groundskeepers burned gasoline on the mound to dry it off.

Seating and tickets
Forbes Field had an original capacity of 25,000, the largest in the league at the time. Seating at the stadium was remodeled numerous times, peaking at a capacity of 41,000 in 1925 and closing in 1970 at 35,000 seats. On opening day, ticket prices ranged from $1.25 (equal to $0 today) for box seats and $1 (equal to $0 today) for reserved grand stand sections; temporary bleachers were set up for the occasion and cost $0.50. Ticket prices were considered high for the day and steel pillars supporting the roof occasionally blocked fans' views of the field. Two thousand bleacher seats were situated along the left field side; tickets were sold for a maximum of $1. When winning streaks attracted high attendance to games, fans were permitted to sit on the grass in right field, provided they agreed to allow a player to catch any ball hit in the area. The lowest season of attendance came in 1914, when 139,620 people attended games; the highest at the stadium came in 1960, when 1,705,828 people watched the Pirates play. On September 23, 1956, the stadium's largest crowd, 44,932, gathered to see the home team play the Brooklyn Dodgers. The game was cut short in the top of the ninth inning, after a rain delay forced it past the Pennsylvania Sunday curfew. The Dodgers won the game 8–2 the following day. At 200 people, June 10, 1938, was believed to have marked the smallest crowd to ever attend a Pirates game (against the Philadelphia Phillies), however, Baseball Reference has the attendance for that game listed as 1,034. On September 30, 1962, a crowd of 40,916 people saw the Steelers defeated by the New York Giants, at the Steelers' highest-attended game at the stadium.

Closing and demolition
Though Forbes Field was praised upon its opening, it began to show its age after 60 years of use. The park was the second oldest baseball field in the league at the time – only Shibe Park in Philadelphia was older (it was replaced in 1971 by Veterans Stadium). The location of the park, which initially was criticized for not being developed, grew into a "bustling business district" which led to a lack of parking space. One sportswriter wrote that The House of Thrills had become "as joyless as a prison exercise yard". Following a plan to expand their adjacent campus, the University of Pittsburgh purchased Forbes Field in 1958, with an agreement to lease the stadium to the Pirates until a replacement could be built. A proposal for a new sports stadium in Pittsburgh was first made in 1948, but plans did not attract much attention until the late 1950s. Construction began on Three Rivers Stadium on April 25, 1968. The Pittsburgh Pirates and the Chicago Cubs played a double-header on June 28, 1970. Pittsburgh won the first game 3–2. In the later game Al Oliver hit the last home run in the park, and Matty Alou drove in two runs as the Pirates closed the 62-year-old stadium with a 4–1 victory. The 40,918 spectators in attendance stood and cheered as Dave Giusti retired Willie Smith for the final out (recorded by Bill Mazeroski) at the stadium. Pirates Hall of Famer Roberto Clemente played 15 seasons at Forbes Field. He was emotional during the last game saying, "I spent half my life there." After the game, home plate was dug up and taken by helicopter to Three Rivers Stadium to be installed in the artificial turf.

A community group attempted to rescue the structure from demolition, proposing such things as a stage, apartments and a farmers market for the site and comparing it to the Eiffel Tower in significance.

The abandoned structure suffered two separate fires that damaged the park, on December 24, 1970, and July 17, 1971. Eleven days after the second fire, demolition began, and the site was cleared for use by the University of Pittsburgh.

Memorials
In 1955, a statue of Honus Wagner was dedicated in Schenley Plaza adjacent to Forbes Field. Several thousand fans attended the dedication as well as Wagner himself. His failing health caused him to never leave his open convertible in which he arrived (Wagner died near the end of that year). The 1800 lbs statue was moved to Three Rivers Stadium in 1970. Today, the statue stands at the home plate entrance of PNC Park.

The portion of the left field wall over which Bill Mazeroski hit his walk-off home run to end the 1960 World Series, between the scoreboard and the "406 FT" sign, no longer stands at its original location. A portion of that wall, including the distance marker, had been sliced off and moved to the Allegheny Club at Three Rivers Stadium. Before the Three Rivers demolition, the section of the wall was salvaged, and in 2009 it was restored and placed on the Riverwalk outside of PNC Park.

Meanwhile, the original location of that wall is outlined by bricks extending from the left-center field wall across Roberto Clemente Drive and into the sidewalk. A plaque embedded in the sidewalk marks the spot where Mazeroski's home run cleared the wall. The left-center and center field brick wall with "457 FT" and "436 FT" painted on it still stands at its original location, along with the stadium's flagpole, adjacent to the University of Pittsburgh's Mervis and Posvar Halls. Despite not technically being the correct section of wall where Mazeroski's famous home run cleared, it is often locally referred to as "Mazeroski's Wall." This portion of the wall remained after Forbes Field was torn down, and was refurbished in 2006 in time for the All-Star Game hosted in Pittsburgh. In addition, a wooden replica of an entrance to the stadium, including a ticket window and players entrance, was constructed and placed near the remaining wall in 2006. The home plate used in the stadium's final game remains preserved in the University of Pittsburgh's Posvar Hall. However, its location has been altered; author John McCollister wrote, "Had architects placed home plate in its precise spot about half of the Pirates fans could not view it. The reason: it would have to be on display in the fifth stall of the ladies' restroom." However, the original location of the home plate has been more recently determined by others to be approximately 81 ft away from its current display, just inside the GSPIA/Economics Library, and not in a restroom as has been popularly believed.

A ceremony is held each October 13 at the outfield wall in Oakland to listen to a taped broadcast of the final game of the 1960 World Series. The tradition was started by Squirrel Hill resident Saul Finkelstein, who at 1:05 pm on October 13, 1985, sat alone at the base of the flagpole and listened to the NBC radio broadcast of Chuck Thompson and Jack Quinlan. Finkelstein continued the tradition for eight more years, until word spread and other people began attending in 1993. On October 13, 2000—the game's 40th anniversary—over 600 people attended to listen to the broadcast, including Mazeroski himself. For the 50th anniversary, on October 13, 2010, a plaque honoring Mazeroski was dedicated and more than 1,000 attended the broadcast, including Mazeroski and several other former Pirates.

Baseball
In 1909, Forbes Field's opening season, the Pirates beat the Detroit Tigers in the World Series. It was the only meeting of eventual Hall of Famers Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb.

On October 2, 1920, Forbes Field hosted the last triple-header in MLB history.

On August 5, 1921, Forbes Field was the site of the first live radio broadcast of a Major League Baseball game in the United States. Harold Arlin announced the play-by-play action between the Pittsburgh Pirates and the Philadelphia Phillies over KDKA from a box seat next to the first-base dugout. Regular broadcasts of Pirates games began over KDKA in 1936, announced by A. K. "Rosey" Rowswell, a local humorist and friend of team owner Bill Benswanger. Rowswell is quoted as describing his broadcasting with, "It's not just play-by-play that matters. It's what you say in between the pitches that counts." His style influenced junior partner Bob Prince, who began broadcasting in 1948. Rowswell broadcast games at Forbes Field until his death in 1955.

In 1925, the Pirates became the first team to come back from a three-game to one deficit to defeat the Washington Senators and win the World Series. Pittsburgh's third and final World Series championship while they played at Forbes Field came in 1960. Bill Mazeroski hit the first home run to end a World Series and as of the end of the 2020 season, the only walk-off home run in World Series Game 7 history. These two World Series victories mark the only times that the Pirates clinched a championship at home, with Forbes Field hosting both.

Two unassisted triple plays were turned at Forbes Field. The first took place on May 7, 1925, when Pittsburgh's Glenn Wright achieved the feat. Two seasons later, in 1927, Jimmy Cooney—who had been a victim of the first triple play—also acquired three outs by himself.

On May 25, 1935, at Forbes Field, Babe Ruth hit the last three home runs of his career as his Boston Braves lost to the Pirates, 11–7. His last home run cleared the right field stands roofline, making him the first player to ever do so.

On October 8, 1946, six months before his major league debut, Jackie Robinson played with his African American all-stars against Honus Wagner's all-stars.

Most of the game-action scenes from the 1951 film Angels in the Outfield were filmed at the stadium.

On May 28, 1956, Dale Long of the Pirates took what one author has stated was the first-ever curtain call in baseball history, after hitting home runs in eight consecutive games caused fans to cheer for five minutes.

The Homestead Grays of the Negro leagues played all home games at Forbes Field from 1922 to 1939. Grays owner Cumberland Posey became friends with Dreyfuss, who rarely missed a Grays game. In 1930, Josh Gibson made his premiere for the Grays at Forbes Field. Also in 1930, the Grays and the Kansas City Monarchs played the first baseball game at night in Pittsburgh on July 18, 1930. A crowd of over 15,000 was expected. Floodlights were installed the day before the game after they were transported from Cleveland, where the Grays and Monarchs had played on July 16. Six members of the Grays' 1936 team have been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Beginning in 1937, the Grays won nine consecutive Negro National League championships.

The University of Pittsburgh's baseball team also often used Forbes Field for home games.

Football
The University of Pittsburgh's football team moved from Exposition Park into Forbes Field upon its opening in 1909 and played there until 1924 when it moved into the larger Pitt Stadium only a few blocks away. In their first game at Forbes Field on October 16, 1909, the Panthers defeated Bucknell University 18–6. In 1910, Pitt's second year at Forbes Field, the Panthers went undefeated without allowing a single point. The Panthers had several successful seasons while playing at Forbes Field, including five in which they went undefeated and were awarded national championship titles in 1910, 1915, 1916, 1917, and 1918. During their years at Forbes Field, Pitt's teams were led by Hall of Fame coaches Joe Thompson, Glenn "Pop" Warner and Jock Sutherland. Forbes Field was the site of yet another broadcasting first when on October 8, 1921, Harold W. Arlin announced live play-by-play action of the Pitt-West Virginia football game on radio station KDKA, the first live radio broadcast of a college football game in the United States. Duquesne University also played many of their home games there in the 1930s and 1940s.

Pittsburgh native, Art Rooney founded his NFL team under the name the Pittsburgh Pirates, on July 8, 1933, for $2,500 ($0 in present-day terms). The franchise's first game, against the New York Giants, was held on September 20, 1933, at Forbes Field. The Giants won the game 23–2 in front of 25,000 people. Rooney wrote of the game, "The Giants won. Our team looks terrible. The fans didn't get their money's worth." The Pirates rebounded to gain their first ever franchise victory a week later at Forbes Field, against the Chicago Cardinals. The NFL's Pirates were renamed the Steelers in 1940, and otherwise struggled during much of their three-decades of tenancy at Forbes. The club achieved its first winning record in 1942; its tenth season of existence. On November 30, 1952, the Steelers met the New York Giants at Forbes Field for a snowy afternoon game. Pittsburgh entered the game with a 3–6 record, but went on to set multiple team records, including scoring nine touchdowns, to win the game 63–7. Excited by their team's play, the 15,140 spectators ran onto the field and began to tear the field goal posts out of the ground. The University of Pittsburgh's acquisition of Forbes Field in 1958 gave the Steelers some options, and they began transferring some of their home games to the much larger Pitt Stadium that year. The Steelers played their final game at Forbes Field on December 1, 1963. The franchise moved to Pitt Stadium exclusively the following season.

Boxing and other events
Boxing bouts were held at Forbes Field from the 1910s to the 1950s, attracting crowds of over 15,000 people. On June 23, 1919, Harry "The Pittsburgh Windmill" Greb—the only boxer to beat Gene Tunney—defeated Mike Gibbons in a ten-round bout at Forbes Field. On July 18, 1951, the heavyweight boxing championship was held at the stadium. In seven rounds, Ezzard Charles was knocked out by Jersey Joe Walcott. Another bout on September 25, 1939, was attended by 17,000 people including Art Rooney and Pie Traynor. Pittsburgh native Billy Conn defended his light heavyweight title against Melio Bettina, whom he had beaten months earlier. Conn won the bout by decision in 15 rounds. Two years later, on June 18, 1941, Conn fought Joe Louis at New York City's Polo Grounds, in an attempt to become the world heavyweight champion. The Pirates and the New York Giants, who were playing at Forbes Field, were called into their dugouts while the 24,738 fans in attendance listened to the radio broadcast of the hour-long bout. Conn led the bout into the final round, but fought for the knockout and was knocked out himself.

On Sunday, October 17, 1909, at 3:00 p.m. a communion service was held at Forbes Field as the culmination of the International Centennial Celebration and Conventions of the Disciples of Christ marking the 100th anniversary of the signing of the "Declaration and Address" by Thomas Campbell in September 1809. Campbell was a founding father of the American Restoration Movement (Disciples of Christ, Christian Church, Churches of Christ). Delegates and members of churches from all over the world were present.

The Mine Safety and Health Administration hosted a mine rescue and safety demonstration at Forbes on October 30, 1911. The event included first-aid and rescue demonstrations. Around 15,000 attended the event, including President William H. Taft. Forbes Field also hosted circuses and concerts.

Seating capacity
The seating capacity for baseball:

Gallery: 1910s Panorama
Forbes Field in the early 1910s from the Library of Congress, intended to form a panorama.

title: Forbes Field


text:
Monaro Highway

Monaro Highway is a 285 km highway in Victoria, New South Wales, and the Australian Capital Territory, in Australia, linking in Victoria to Canberra in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) via the Monaro region. From its southern terminus, it follows the nearby Cann River upstream towards the New South Wales border through heavily forested terrain. Within New South Wales (NSW), it makes its way through further forest before reaching the pastures typical of the Monaro. There are multiple towns and villages along the highway, including, , and. The terrain within the Monaro is largely hilly, and there are numerous crossings. The road also parallels the former Bombala railway line in several locations. Within the ACT, the road becomes a high volume roadway and serves the southern suburbs of Canberra. The highway has more recently had a grade-separated dual carriageway extension constructed within Canberra, as part of the Eastern Parkway construction project. It is designated part of route M23, and route A23 within Canberra, and route B23 within Victoria and New South Wales, with a concurrency where it also carries route B72 between the two sections of Snowy Mountains Highway.

Victoria
Monaro Highway begins at the intersection with Princes Highway in in the East Gippsland region. After leaving the town, it heads north along a relatively flat area following the Cann River upstream through a locality known as Noorinbee. To the west is farmland between the road and river and a mountain range beyond and to the east are some smaller hills. The land to the east is largely part of Drummer State Forest. As the sides close in at the northern end of this wider valley area, the highway crosses to the west bank of the river highway and enters the Noorinbee North locality. Continuing north, the terrain is more hilly and forested and the alignment more closely parallels the winding river upstream to the area of Weeragua. At this point, the land to the west of the river is part of Buldah State Forest, and to the east is Coopracambra National Park. The road has now entered the Chandlers Creek locality and at Weeragua, the road crosses the west branch of the Cann River and continues further north along the east branch through a small farmland area. From here, it follows the river through more forest before coming to another small farmland area and crossing Chandlers Creek itself. The road once again enters forest as it follows the Cann River east branch to its upper end at the confluence of Fiddlers Green Creek and Flat Rock Creek, the latter of which the road follows through Coopracambra National Park to the New South Wales border.

New South Wales
From the state border, Monaro Highway continues north through forest, generally keeping Bondi State Forest to the west and South East Forest National Park to the east. The immediate landscape by the roadside also includes the occasional small tract of farmland at several points. There is a crossing over the Genoa River within the forest, and the road roughly follows it upstream. Upon exiting the large forested area that exists near the border, the road enters farmland. This farmland continues as a patchwork of pastures for the rest of the journey within New South Wales and is only interrupted by the occasional town. The road continues roughly northwest until it meets Delegate Road at a T-intersection just outside. Turning towards the northeast at the intersection, the road quickly reaches Bombala. Within the urban area, the road firstly takes on the name Maybe Street. It then turns northeast at Forbes Street and crosses over the Bombala River. After the bridge, the road returns to a northeast heading as Mahratta Street. This street continues for a short distance before a right angle bend to the northwest to match the same manoeuvre by the river. The road then becomes Stephen Street before returning to the Monaro Highway name at the edge of the urban area and concluding its zig-zag trajectory through Bombala.

The highway then travels in a north-easterly direction, crossing the Bombala River again and making its way towards. The road bypasses the village just to its west and makes a further crossing of the Bombala River. Continuing north, the road winds its way towards a ridge near Native Dog Creek. After crossing the creek, the road climbs the ridge and continues northbound. At this point, the former Bombala railway line alignment winds along the western side and is visible in some locations. Eventually the road swings east and meets the western end of the eastern section of the Snowy Mountains Highway at another T-intersection. The highway turns towards the northwest at this intersection and, after a short distance, crosses the Maclaughlin River. A little further along this heading, the road enters. The highway takes on the name Bombala Street within the urban area and swings to the northeast through the small town. From here, the road continues northwest once again with the railway alignment never far to the west and sometimes paralleling the road. The road crosses several small creeks along this stretch of road. Before reaching, the road also passes to the west of Kuma Nature Reserve and crosses over the former Bombala railway line. Within the town of Cooma, the road initially takes up the name Bombala Street. Where this street meets Sharp Street at a 4-way roundabout, the highway turns east, while the western section of Snowy Mountains Highway begins from the same point and heads west. Continuing east as Sharp Street, the road soon curves north and transitions back to Monaro Highway. It then parallels the railway within the urban area and also passes by the Tadeusz Kościuszko Monument as it leaves the town.

North of Cooma, the highway follows the same general path as the railway alignment as far as the area of Bunyan. From there, it continues along the same rough heading and crosses the Numeralla River just prior to its confluence with the Murrumbidgee River. The road then follows the Murrumbidgee downstream at some distance to its east. The highway continues on towards Bredbo and crosses the Bredbo River as it enters the village. The highway takes on the name Cooma Street through Bredbo and crosses over the railway yet again just north of the town. Further to the north, the road passes through Gungoandra Gap to the east of Round Hill. Mount Colinton is now visible to the highway's east, and a larger range known as the Clear Range is visible to west. The ridgeline of the Clear Range forms the eastern border of the ACT in this area. Heading further downstream, continuing the distant parallel of the Murrumbidgee, the road enters and crosses the railway a final few times as the railway winds through the area. It does not enter the urban area of Michelago itself and instead passes to the west of the village. North of Michelago the road and railway parallel each other very closely as they head towards the ACT border at the north end of the Clear Range. The road crosses the border just east of Cunningham Hill.

Australian Capital Territory
From the territory border, the road passes into the rural southern reaches of the Tuggeranong District. In this area of the ACT, the railway line forms the eastern border of the territory, with the railway line itself situated on the NSW side. To the western side of the road flows Guises Creek, with a range of hills beyond it, Rose Hill and Mount Rob Roy being two of the more prominent peaks. As the road reaches the Tuggeranong urban area, it begins to parallel the urban area instead and forms part of the border of Tuggeranong's eastern suburbs. Approaching the Tharwa Drive intersection, the road becomes a dual carriageway. The road climbs onto a small ridge with views of the urban area to the west and the Tuggeranong Pine Plantation to the east. The road then descends towards the Jerrabomberra district border where it meets Isabella Drive, and then passes through the light industrial suburb of, although the land to the west of the road is largely undeveloped. Within Hume, the road meets Lanyon Drive, which heads across the nearby border towards and.

The road then continues roughly north and crosses a largely open area of pasture. The SouthCare emergency helicopter is stationed to the east of the road not far after its intersection with Lanyon Drive, and further on, a prison, the Alexander Maconochie Centre, is located to the west. Approaching the northern end of the pasture, Jerrabomberra Creek flows to the east. At the northern end is the Hindmarsh Drive interchange. The highway passes underneath Hindmarsh Drive and continues over Jerrabomberra Creek, before then passing over an interchange with Canberra Avenue (where it is designated route M23), along with an overpass above the Canberra railway line branch, and an interchange above Newcastle Street. Monaro Highway is then carried across a flood plain above farmland on concrete drainage channels, before crossing the Molonglo River over the Malcolm Fraser Bridge where it becomes Majura Parkway, continuing on until it meets Federal Highway near Goorooyaroo Nature Reserve.

Early roads
A minor road appeared in this region on Thomas Mitchell's 1834 map of the Nineteen Counties of New South Wales. Located within Murray county, the road continued from towards the south before turning west crossing the Queanbeyan River near its confluence with the Molonglo River (the current location of ), which then headed south towards what was then known as the "Miccaligo Plains" (now ). The road is then marked as continuing south beyond the border of the county; although no settlement could legally occur beyond the Nineteen Counties at that time, those who settled beyond this area were known as squatters. The detail of the road beyond Murray county is not plotted on the map. By 1844 the road had reached, and was extended to by 1852. Mapping from 1882 shows the road had extended all the way to the Victorian border, crossing near.

Victoria
Within Victoria, the passing of the Country Roads Act of 1912 through the Parliament of Victoria provided for the establishment of the Country Roads Board (later VicRoads) and their ability to declare Main Roads, taking responsibility for the management, construction and care of the state's major roads from local municipalities. Cann Valley Road was declared a Main Road from Cann River to the border with New South Wales on 23 March 1914.

The passing of the Highways and Vehicles Act of 1924 provided for the declaration of State Highways, roads two-thirds financed by the State government through the Country Roads Board. Cann Valley Highway was declared a State Highway on 10 August 1960, from Cann River to the border with New South Wales (for a total of 27.5 miles), subsuming the original declaration of Cann Valley Road as a Main Road.

As part of the Bicentennial Road Development Programme, the roadway was sealed along its entire length, the project being completed in March 1985. It was renamed Monaro Highway on 25 October 1996, to match the highway to which it connects at the NSW border.

The passing of the Road Management Act 2004 granted the responsibility of overall management and development of Victoria's major arterial roads to VicRoads: in 2004, VicRoads re-declared the road as Monaro Highway (Arterial #6760), beginning at Cann River and ending at the New South Wales border in Chandlers Creek.

New South Wales
The passing of the Main Roads Act of 1924 through the Parliament of New South Wales provided for the declaration of Main Roads, roads partially funded by the State government through the Main Roads Board (later the Department of Main Roads, and eventually Transport for NSW), later amended by the passing of the Main Roads (Amendment) Act of 1929 to provide for the additional declarations of State Highways and Trunk Roads.

The roads forming the future highway were given the following classifications on 8 August 1928: State Highway 4 was actually named Monaro Highway at the time, which ran from to.
 * Main Road No. 53 from the Victorian border via to, amended to Trunk Road 53 in 1929;
 * Main Road No. 4 from Nimmitabel to, amended to State Highway 4 in 1929;
 * Main Road No. 52 from Cooma via Royalla and Queanbeyan to the ACT border, amended to Trunk Road 52 in 1929.

The Department of Main Roads, which had succeeded the New South Wales MRB in 1932, declared State Highway 19 on 16 March 1938, from Canberra via Royalla and Bredbo to the intersection with State Highway 4 at Cooma, and from the intersection with State Highway 4 at Nimmitabel via Bombala and Delegate to connect with Bonang Highway at the state border with Victoria, subsuming Trunk Road 53; the southern end of Trunk Road 52 was truncated to meet State Highway 19 at Royalla, as a result.

State Highway 4 was renamed Snowy Mountains Highway on 19 July 1955; the section of State Highway 4 between Nimmitabel and Cooma was also re-designated part of State Highway 19 at the same time. State Highway 19 was officially named Monaro Highway three years later, on 18 June 1958. In contrast with Snowy Mountains Highway, the entire length of State Highway 19 was within the Monaro region. During the mid to late 1960s the highway south of Nimmitabel was rerouted along a newly constructed roadway;  the former alignment is now known as Old Bombala Road. Snowy Mountains Highway was also realigned in this area as part of these works and connected to Monaro Highway along the new alignment. The alignment of the highway's southern end to the state border with Victoria was later changed, travelling via Rockton to connect to Cann River Highway, instead of via Delegate to connect to Bonang Highway, on 12 October 1977; the former alignment was proclaimed Trunk Road 93 and is now known as Delegate Road.

The passing of the Roads Act of 1993 through the Parliament of New South Wales updated road classifications and the way they could be declared within New South Wales. Under this act, Monaro Highway today retains its declaration as Highway 19, from the state border with Victoria via Bombala, Nimmitabel, Cooma and Michelago to the state border with the Australian Capital Territory.

Australian Capital Territory
In 1958 Federal government agreed rename the Cooma-Canberra Road within the ACT as Monaro Highway: this gave the roadway a single name between Canberra and the Victorian border. Originally, the highway ended where it met Jerrabomberra Avenue. Plans were publicised during the mid-1980s for an upgrade of the existing Monaro Highway to dual-carriageway standard between Isabella Drive and Jerrabomberra Avenue, and an extension of the roadway to the north. These works were known as the Eastern Parkway. These plans were then given the go ahead in a report tabled on 5 May 1987, the estimated costs were $50 million including upgrades to other nearby roadways. Around the same time period a large service centre was proposed for near the Isabella Drive intersection, though it was quite controversial, and the developer pulled out. Between 1988 and November 1989 the duplication was completed, and the roadway extended as far as Canberra Avenue. After this the road was extended to its current terminus at Morshead Drive, although the northbound carriageway was originally routed over Dairy Flat Road until a southbound carriageway was constructed later on. Further duplication was performed to other sections of the extension until all sections were completed in mid-2012. The northern end of Monaro Highway now connects to the southern end of Majura Parkway following the latter's completion in 2016. Territory and Municipal Services has classified Monaro Highway as an arterial road within the ACT Road Hierarchy.

Currently, upgrades are underway to the highway near Hume, providing new grade separated interchanged at Lanyon Drive and Isabella Drive, as well as left-in, left-out intersections with Mugga Lane, Tralee Street with an overpass between these intersections. The upgrades will complete a 25km long motorway-standard road all along eastern edge of Canberra.

Route markers
Route markers were first introduced in Australia in late 1954. Over the following decades they were progressively rolled out to the various highways around the nation, under a nationwide route numbering scheme. The highway was originally designated National Route 23 in 1962 between Canberra and Cooma, extended further to Nimmitabel in 1967. Although after the construction of the Eastern Parkway extension, the highway north of Canberra Avenue was designated Alternate National Route 23. The section of Monaro Highway between Steeple Flat and Cooma was also designated National Route 18 in addition to National Route 23, in an arrangement known as a duplex or concurrency, allowing one route to cover Snowy Mountains Highway from end to end (with Monaro Highway linking its two sections).

With all three states' conversion to their newer alphanumeric systems between the late 1990s to the early 2010s, its former route number was updated to route B23 for the highway within Victoria (in 1997), to route B23 within New South Wales section (in 2013), and route A23 within the Australian Capital Territory (also in 2013). This violates the convention in New South Wales, where numbered routes below 50 are prefixed with an 'A' and 'B' routes are numbered above 50; the violation was allowed so the number and letter would be consistent across state lines. The concurrency along Monaro Highway remains intact, with B72 used in addition to B23 between Steeple Flat and Cooma, linking the two sections of Snowy Mountains Highway. In the ACT, Monaro Highway is designated route A23 from the NSW border to Canberra Avenue, and as route M23 north of Canberra Avenue to its terminus, where it joins Majura Parkway.

title: Monaro Highway


text:
Talk:Zionism/Archive 4

Discussion on the Ben-Gurion paragraph
So here is my justifcation for removing RK's paragraph.

I removed RK's addition because it is extremely contentious, which is not surprising considering that it comes from one of the most right-wing commentators on this issue. There is lots of evidence that Ben-Gurion's actual position was quite different from what he said in public and semi-public forums. This includes testimony as well as documents. Besides that, his behaviour did not match the claims here and there is plenty of evidence for that. For example one could quote from several Hagana leaders to the effect that BG encouraged them to remove as many Arabs as possible. One could also note that his treatment of the Arabs who remained was nothing like these quotes would suggest. BG kept them under military authority (essentially martial law) for his whole period as prime-minister. They even needed permits to travel from one village to another, and all sorts of tricks of doubtful legality were used to expropriate land from them. BG also prevented the emergence of any substantial Arab participation in the political process (for example attempts to establish Arab parties were squashed). I'm not planning to write any of this into the article because I don't think it belongs here, but neither should we include Karsh's dubious version. What is there now is very middle-of-the-road and we should not open this article to a debate which will inevitably destroy it.

Although I am not relying solely on Benny Morris for these opinions, he is one of the main writers on this subject so I'll quote from his reply to Karsh on exactly this issue. You can believe Morris or believe Karsh, but at the minimum this proves that Karsh's views are not uniformly accepted.

 * ... Karsh maintains that far from supporting transfer or expulsion of the Arabs, Ben-Gurion in the 1930s and 1940s looked forward to a "Jewish-Arab Semitic alliance" and "true partnership among equal citizens" (p. 68). (Needless to say, he devotes no space to describing how this "fraternal" outlook translated into action vis-a-vis Palestine's Arabs in 1948 and 1949-56.) The author reaches this conclusion by quoting extensively from a number of Ben-Gurion's speeches and memoranda. But Karsh appears unaware of the fact that politicians say different things to different audiences at different times and that what distinguishes good from bad historians is the ability to sort out the (heartfelt) wheat from the (propagandistic) chaff. Karsh also fails to take note of that fundamental rule that what statesmen, politicians, and generals do is far more telling than what they say and a more certain indicator of their real desires and intentions. Ben-Gurion was both more devious and more straightforward than Karsh gives him credit for. He often rolled his eyes to heaven and spoke of the vision of the prophets and of justice for all. And it is true that Ben-Gurion did occasionally say that the Zionist movement must be careful not to go on public record in support of transfer, because doing so could cause the movement political harm, and occasionally expressed doubt whether the idea was practicable . But at no point during the 1930s and 1940s did Ben-Gurion ever go on record against the idea or policy of transfer. On the contrary, Ben-Gurion left a paper trail a mile long as to his actual thinking, and no amount of ignoring, twisting and turning, manipulation, contortion, and distortion can blow it away. -- B. Morris, Refabricating 1948, J. Palestine Studies, Vol 27, 1998, p85. (original emphasis italic)

 * So what? A quote is a quote, even if it does not describe his real position. Malbi 10:44, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero, are you saying the Ben-Gurion quote is false? Or just that he didn't mean what he said? In either case, the full argument belongs at David Ben Gurion, not here. Adam 11:32, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * It is probably not false, but neither is the well-known quotation "The Arabs of Eretz Israel have but one function - to run away.", nor is Yitzhak Rabin's account of how BG ordered him to expel the Arabs of Lidda and Ramle by force (almost 10% of the total all at once), nor probably is Yosef Weitz's claim that BG gave his "transfer committees" a quiet wink and a nod. BG was a politician and like most politicians (your boss excepted, I'm sure) said one thing and did another. He announced that the Arabs were welcome to stay while instructing his generals to make sure they didn't. (Ok, that's an oversimplification, but not so far off.) I don't think David Ben-Gurion is the right place for this either as he was one player of many.  More like Palestinian Exodus or Israeli-Palestinian conflict. --Zero 12:08, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * We should not only approve of quotes from Jews that make them look intolerant. When you see quotes from Jews that make them look tolerant, you delete them. That is an offensive double-standard. Worse, when many people here write about Arabs, they (including you) have the opposite double-standard. You as a group always accept as valid their statements of peace and love, yet deny the value of mentioning their quotes in which they preach destruction of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism. Your deletion is a violation of NPOV. JeMa

 * If I had the bias you suggest, I would try to add material like I mentioned above into the article. I have an infinite amount of it.  Since I am not attempting to do so, it is clear that I am defending NPOV and not violating it. --Zero 00:23, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes, Zero, I am sure you have an "infinite amount" of quotes that you would like to use to demonize Zionists. You are ruthlessly violating NPOV by refusing to show the range of Jewish and Israeli points of view; instead, you only allow one view to be shown, and you hide the rest. JeMa thinks this is evidence of a double-standard? Technically, yes, but there is more to it. Your edits seem malicious. (This is also made clear by the fact that you rely on sources that demonize Zionists as untrustworthy villans.) In line with the above multiple rejections of your view, it is reasonable to restore the deleted point of view. RK 01:57, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your invitation to an edit war, RK aka JeMa, but someone else can try to save the article this time. I have no time to argue with fanatics who simply have no interest in the facts.  I added an NPOV dispute header though, it's the least I could do.  --Zero 11:10, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Zero you can't put a "neutrality disputed" tag on this article just because you and RK detest each other: its neutrality is not disputed by anyone except you. As you know I (and others) put a lot of work getting this article into shape and I resent have it brought into disrepute again by this childish feud. I don't see that the paragraph with the Ben Gurion quote adds nothing of substance to the article and I cannot see how it is worth arguing about. The pair of you should grow up. Adam 14:29, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Adam, this is not childish; it is an important point. People sometimes change their minds, or offer more than one point of view; even Zero admits this. So, there is nothing wrong with an article pointing this out, nor is there anything wrong with discussing how historians interpret varying statements. The problem is that instead of discussing this issue, Zero tried to hide it. I am all for open NPOV discussion; nothing bad or childish about this! RK

Anonymous claims: ''the phrase "Judea and Samaria" is a propaganda term to describe a region of "Palestine" invoking biblical imagery; linking "Judea" and "Samaria" separately implies agreeing with.

 * No, it doesn't mean anything of the sort. That's unjustified. Judea and Samaria are merely names of places. If we rewrote all of our articles to use only the names Judea and Samaria instead of ever using the word "West Bank", then one could argue that we are adopting a pro-Israeli-settler POV. If we rewrote all of our articles to mention only the occupied West Bank, then one could argue that we are adopting a pro-Palestinian POV. But in practice we do neither of these things. Chill out. (Disclaimer: I am against using the terms Judea and Samaria simply because most people have no idea what these words mean.) RK

Adam, there is nothing childish about adding an NPOV tag to an article which contains a lie. I am entitled to do it and I did it. I understand that you don't like it, but you have the option of trying to fix the point that is disputed. You are not enititled to simply delete the tag, that is a clear violation of Wikipedia procedures. And, no, I am not the only person to dispute it. The bulk of historical opinion on this issue disputes it. RK is the one bringing this article into disrepute by adding right-wing garbage to it. And in case you didn't wake up to it yet, RK and JeMa are almost certainly one and the same person. --Zero 23:03, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Sure. And you and Danny are also the same person. After all, you write on many of the same topics, and have very similar points of view. However, we aren't accusing you of this, because you probably really aren't Danny. Frankly, if I was JeMa, then he\I would spend time helping me on the anti-science and pro-quackery attitudes here at Wikipedia, and he\I would also be commenting on about a dozen other articles which I feel are rife with anti-Zionism POV. RK 02:02, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

The NPOV TAG
First, Zero, could you point out what you view as a lie within the article and provide some evidence for that accusation? Second, the fact is that if the vast majority does not agree that the article should be labeled POV, it's not reasonable to label it as such. Why not take a vote on it? I think we should take the tag off, as I think the majority disagrees with it. I don't propose we do anything until a vote is taken, however. Is that reasonable to you people? Leumi 23:11, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Remove Tag Leumi 23:11, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Remove Tag. RK 02:02, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that "the bulk of historical opinion" is a Wikipedia user. So far as I know Zero is the only person who has disputed the neutrality of the article, and his decision to add a tag is unilateral. I also wasn't aware that tags can be added unilaterally but only deleted by consensus. That seems a recipe for vandalism to me. Anyway, I want Zero to tell us exactly what he currently find objectionable about the article (as opposed to what he finds objectionable about RK), so we can discuss something substantive rather than trade insults. Adam 23:24, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree. Respectfully, without a detailed and specific reason for the NPOV tag, the claim that the article contains a lie is only so much weasel words. I think the best manner of dealing with this is taking a vote on the matter, as I have suggested above. Leumi 23:40, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am trying to protect the article from destruction. RK inserted an extremely contentious paragraph into an article which is otherwise well-written and balanced. It can't be allowed to stand on its own like that, but what are the options? I could add some counter-information (such as the things I alluded to above) to show that RK's paragraph is not the median opinion. If I don't, then someone else will before long. Then someone like RK or Leumi will try to revert me or add more stuff from Karsh, and so on. In no time at all the article will look like Israel-Palestinian conflict and all our effort will have been wasted. In order to head off this disaster, I removed RK's paragraph and spent a long time explaining why. The only way for this article to survive is to avoid the most heated issue, which is the 1948 exodus of the Palestinians. RK's addition jumps directly into the middle of it and one way or the other will lead to the demise of the article. --Zero 23:50, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Excuse me, are we talking about the same subject here? The Ben Gurion quote paragraph? If not, please say what you are talking about. If yes, then unless you are alleging that BG didn't actually say those words, you can't call it a lie, as you did earlier. You might call it off-topic or unhelpful or whatever, and I might agree with you, but that isn't a lie, and doesn't justify the language you are using. Adam 23:59, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * First Zero, could you please specify what supposedly "extremely contentious paragraph" RK entered? That might help. Thanks. :) If it's in reference to the Ben-Gurion quote, I can't imagine how it qualifies as a "lie", as you call it. Are you disputing whether or not Ben-Gurion, who was the main political voice in Israel at the time, made the quote? Furthermore, simply because something is not your opinion, does not make it not the median mainstream opinion. An article can include viewpoints that are not yours. As a matter of fact, it is essential to include all viewpoints, rather than limit them only to those of one faction or perspective. We should give our readers credit for being intelligent enough to make their own decisions without indoctrination. Leumi 00:03, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

First of all, we need to archive. Having said that, let's try and clarify the debate over POV here. To do that, though, we first have to clarify how POV can be violated. A neutral POV is not only obtained by presenting all of the statements and arguments of each side. NPOV also includes the way these facts are positioned and presented. I will therefore try to understand both sides to the debate. It seems as if RK/JeMa is saying that yes, Ben Gurion made the earlier statement, which seems racist, but that there was a change in his attitude as evidenced by the 1947 quote he brings. It seems as if Zero is saying that yes, the 1947 quote is genuine, but it is hardly a true reflection of Ben Gurion's attitude or the Zionist attitude in general. In fact, he says, he can bring other quotes that counter that quote.

Now, back to what I said about NPOV and positioning. The way the quote stands now seems to imply that in 1937, Ben Gurion supported the forced removal of the Arab population from some potential Jewish state but that in 1947 he changed his mind and called on Jews and Arabs to work together. This is misleading, since it fails to consider what happened in 1948-1949, once statehood was declared, and B-G, as supreme commander of the nascent Israeli forces, stood behind at least some forced expulsions (and I am not saying that all Palestinians were forcibly expelled). In other words, in the debate leading to statehood, B-G adopted a more conciliatory attitude toward the Palestinian population, but in the reality of statehood and war, his stated objective of 1947 was ignored.

It would not seem fair to end the discussion of this topic with the 1947 quote. It is misleading. It is not the end of the debate. (Personally, I find the quote in 1947 somewhat racist, but that is besides the point.)

There are two possible solutions: either Zero and RK continue tossing quotes and sources at each other, until this article comes to resemble the protocol of the recent peace talks--volumes and volumes with very little achieved. Alternately, the new text is removed and placed somewhere else, i.e., Palestinian refugees, Palestinian Exodus, or whatever you wanna call it. Until then, the way it is placed now does seem to violate POV. At least in my opinion it does. Danny 00:10, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your thoughts, Zero\Danny. Its good to know who you really are! RK

 * I disagree. As someone stated in Wikipedia, I don't recall who, it doesn't seem fair to give the "prosecution" the last word. Furthermore, the quote is very relevant, and only including one perspective in this section is misleading. If we're going to deal with this issue elsewhere, then we shouldn't deal with it here at all. If we are going to deal with the issue here, then both sides should be represented. Furthermore, Zero's removal of the quote without valid discussion represents what I think qualifies as extreme POV. I'm not going to re-add it in myself for fear of getting into an edit war (although I don't discourage someone else from taking that action, if they feel it wise), I think it should remain within the article, or the entire section of Zionism and the Arabs should be removed. We can't only represent one point of view here. Leumi 00:17, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I think quotes undermining a person's own position is more informative (and thus worth mentioning here) than anything which can be chalked up to diplomatic rhetoric. -- 213.73.231.245 00:56, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have written a new paragraph which avoids this stupid war of quotations. An encyclopaedia article is supposed to be a work of synthesis, not a collection of undigested primary source materials. Adam 02:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * You didn't remove any quotations. I did that.  What you did was to delete a very vanilla description that hardly any Israeli historians disagree with.  For example, the right-of-center Shabtai Teveth (one of Morris' main opponents from the right) was one of the first to synthesise the primary material that this description is based on.  It is miles away from the standard Arab historiography.  What you replaced it by is the Israeli picturebook version.

 * The attitude of the socialist leaders of the Zionist movement was also ambiguous. During the 1920s and '30s they argued that the Arabs would eventually come to accept Jewish settlement in Palestine provided this was done along socialist lines and the Arabs were treated in a spirit of socialist fraternity. They argued that in public, and some did in private too. Ben-Gurion was not one of the latter...

 * David Ben-Gurion, the leading socialist Zionist, made a number of statements to this effect. ... so choosing him as your example is an error. Actually, Ben-Gurion was one of the first to acknowledge Arab opposition as a true nationalist movement. Even before 1920 he was saying this, to his credit.  Your words make him look ignorant.

 * By the 1940s, however, as it became evident that the Arabs were inplacably opposed to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine, these notions were abandoned. Translation: The good-hearted Zionists wanted nothing more than to live in peace with the Arabs but they were forced to change their minds when the evil Arabs rejected their love.

 * Ben-Gurion and the other socialist Zionist leaders came to agree with other Zionists that a Jewish-majority state would have to be created and the Arabs excluded by one means or another - Hang on! The need for a Jewish majority was one of the most commonly held tenets of Zionism from the beginning of the Zionist movement.  Now you want us to believe that it was forced upon the Zionists in the 1940s? Moreover, the public stance of the socialist Zionists did not change much in this time frame at all, so what could you be meaning?

 * --Zero 04:03, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't know what has come over you this week Zero, but I am not interested in debating with you while you adopt this tone of aggressive sarcasm. If you disagree with what I have written, suggest an alternative. Adam 05:20, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * What you deleted is more accurate and more middle-ground than what you replaced it by. It had no "undigested primary source materials" at all and its "synthesis" was in line (actually, somewhat to the conservative side) of the mainstream that I read in the academic journals. Perhaps if you had critiqued it rather than just junking it (something I have never done to your work) I might have been a little less annoyed.  Now, since I really do care about the quality of the article, I am going to put it back.  You are more than welcome to suggest how it can be improved. --Zero 08:02, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Danny, If Ben Gurion's public statements and actions over time haven't been perfectly consistent, then maybe we should chronicle them in the Ben Gurion article. Something like:

 * At first, BG said let's go in nicely.
 * Later he said, let's go in and kick everyone else out.
 * But soon went, oops, I mean let's work together.

Isn't it common for politicians to change their stances on major issues? Wesley Clark and John Kerry used to support the US decision to oust Saddam militarily; after Bush did so, Clark and Kerry both said the US decision was wrong. Kind of like the tide coming in and going out. --Uncle Ed 14:58, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Ed, you are right. But Zero is hell bent on making Jews out look to be intolerant ethnic cleansers, and is infuriated whenever he finds Jewish words about peaceful co-existence. It is his moral blind spot. RK 02:08, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

Hi, Ed. I think that this is precisely the point that Zero and I were trying to make. To use a single statement outside of the historical context of when and why it was made is misleading. To place so that it seems to imply that this is the person's final position on an issue is also misleading. I have no problem finding somewhere else to put this particular quote, however, it should be placed in context. Danny 15:05, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree. RK 02:08, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

"Zionism has always had both religious and secular aspects, reflecting the dual nature of Jewish identity, as both a religion (Judaism) and as a national or ethnic identity (Jewishness)."

 * This sentence need some elaboration. I always thought Zionism was a strictly secular movement and didn't deal with religion at all. BL 18:20, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Hmm. I always thought it was a religiously-inspired political movement which has drifted considerably from its religious roots as Israel has become increasingly secularized. But what do I know? I'm only half-Jewish (mother's side). --Uncle Ed 19:33, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Ed, if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish. No halves about it.

Actually, it's the exact opposite; the revisionist religious connotations only came later. -- 213.73.231.245 00:51, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * The concept of "return to Zion" is deeply rooted in Jewish religious beliefs (i.e: the custom of saying "Next Year in Jerusalem" at passover seders etc), however the actual political movement began as a secular creation, also largely socialist. It was originally opposed by religious Judiasm, but since the creation of Israel most of even the religious community has joined the Zionism movement. Leumi 01:00, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Leumi is correct. The anonymous claim is an anti-Zionist, if not anti-Semitic, fabrication. There is no way that anyone could possibly make such a claim out of ignorance; it had to be done deliberately. This is really sad; Zero0000's sarcastic badgering on these issues may be bringing out the Wiki-cranks who want to troll Judaism, even if Zero himself doesn't intend this. RK 02:08, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * For your information, what Leumi said is not in contradiction with what I said.
 * BTW, may I remind you that you're on probation? So COOL IT! -- 213.73.231.245 02:35, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Leumi is correct and RK is tiresome. --Zero 02:34, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think this whole debate has been pretty tiresome recently, which is a pity since I think we (Danny, Zero, RK and I) had managed to collaborate reasonably harmoniously in constructing both this article and Anti-Zionism until this current dispute.

My proposal:
 * drop all discussion about who is being more tiresome than whom.
 * delete all reference to Ben-Gurion in the paragraph in question - he is only there for illustrative purposes after all.
 * all participants submit drafts for a replacement paragraph. Topic: Attitudes of socialist Zionists towards the Arabs 1917-47. Word limit: 250 words. Marks will be awarded for conciseness and objectivity of tone. Adam 03:57, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No marks for accuracy? My submission is the current text which so far nobody has shown a fault with. Ben-Gurion is not there for illustrative purposes; he is there because he was the leader and got his way on almost every issue, so his opinion was more important than anyone else's opinion. --Zero 05:35, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This article in Haaretz is too personal to link to the article, but is neverthess interesting with respect to the binational idea. The number of Israeli intellectuals who think this way is still very small but the trickle is growing. They aren't all on the far-left either, as in this example. --Zero 09:54, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, as someone who actually knows people in Israel on the left, the right and the center in political opinion I know that the concept of a binational state is not one that is considered mainstream by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact, the very concept of one is viewed with derision and in some cases fear if it is ever taken seriously within mainstream Israeli circles. Leumi 01:02, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is not a forum for discussing Israeli politics, which will only lead to further pointless argument. Zero's paragraph will stand until someone suggests an alternative. Adam 02:21, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Folks: I'd do this myself but am in Japan and unable to get ahold of my uncle Arthur (he is my mom's cousin -- but the closer relatives got killed in the holocaust) myself. How can someone write an article about Zionism and not have a bio of the author of the Zionist Idea really boggles. This Hertzberg Interview may help. - Sparky 03:19, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Zionism/Archive 4