text:
List of Major League Baseball retired numbers

Major League Baseball (MLB) and its participating clubs have retired various uniform numbers over the course of time, ensuring that those numbers are never worn again and thus will always be associated with particular players or managers of note. The use of numbers on uniforms to better identify one player from another, and hence to boost sales of scorecards, was tried briefly by the Cleveland Indians of 1916, but this failed. The first team to permanently adopt the practice was the New York Yankees of 1929. By 1932, all 16 major league clubs were issuing numbers, and by 1937, the leagues passed rules requiring it.

The Yankees' original approach was to simply assign the numbers 1 through 8 to the regular starting lineup in their normal batting order. Hence, Babe Ruth wore number 3 and Lou Gehrig number 4. The first major leaguer whose number was retired was Gehrig, in July 1939, following his retirement due to amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, which became popularly known in the United States as Lou Gehrig's Disease.

Since then, over 150 other people have had their numbers retired, some with more than one team. This includes managers and coaches, as MLB is the only one of the major North American professional leagues in which the coaching staff wear the same uniforms as players. Three numbers have been retired in honor of people not directly involved on the playing field – all three for team executives. Some of the game's early stars, such as Ty Cobb and Christy Mathewson, retired before numbers came into usage. Teams often celebrate their retired numbers and other honored people by hanging banners with the numbers and names. Early stars, as well as honored non-players, will often have numberless banners hanging along with the retired numbers. Because fewer and fewer players stay with one team long enough to warrant their number being retired, some players believe that getting their number retired is a greater honor than going into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Ron Santo, upon his number 10 being retired by the Chicago Cubs on the last day of the 2003 regular season, enthusiastically told the Wrigley Field crowd as his #10 flag was hoisted, "This is my Hall of Fame!" However, Santo would be inducted into the Hall of Fame in July 2012, nearly two years after his death, after being voted in by the Veterans Committee.

Former retired numbers
It is very rare for a team to reissue a retired number, and usually requires a special circumstance, such as the person for whom the number was retired returning to the team in a player, coach or manager role. Harold Baines provides one example of this when he returned to the White Sox multiple times. The White Sox also re-issued Luis Aparicio's number 11, with his permission, to fellow countryman Omar Vizquel in 2010–11.

In cases of franchise relocation, the handling of existing retired numbers is at the discretion of team management. The team may decide to continue honoring the retired numbers (as did the San Francisco Giants), or it may choose to make a "fresh start" and reissue the numbers (as the Washington Nationals have done).

The Cincinnati Reds returned Willard Hershberger's number 5 to circulation two years after his death. Cincinnati later re-retired the number to honor Johnny Bench.

When the Florida Marlins moved to their current stadium, LoanDepot Park, and were rebranded as the Miami Marlins, the number 5, which had been retired for the team's late first president Carl Barger, was returned to circulation because player Logan Morrison requested permission to wear the number to honor his father.

Retired in honor of multiple players
The following numbers have been retired in honor of multiple players:
 * Chicago Cubs, #31: retired in 2009 for Ferguson Jenkins and Greg Maddux
 * Cincinnati Reds, #5: retired in 1940 for Willard Hershberger who had committed suicide during the season; returned to service in 1942; retired in 1984 for Johnny Bench
 * Montreal Expos, #10: retired for Rusty Staub in 1993; ceremony to honor #10 for Andre Dawson was held in 1997
 * New York Yankees, #8: retired in 1972 for Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra
 * St. Louis Cardinals, #42: retired in 1997 by all teams in MLB for Jackie Robinson; ceremony to honor #42 for Bruce Sutter was held in 2006
 * New York Yankees, #42: retired in 1997 by all teams in MLB for Jackie Robinson (players already wearing the number could continue to do so by special arrangement); ceremony to honor #42 for Mariano Rivera was held in 2013
 * Oakland Athletics, #34: retired for Rollie Fingers in 1993; ceremony to honor #34 for Dave Stewart was held in 2022.

Retired by multiple teams
A handful of players who had notable careers for multiple teams have had their numbers retired by each team.
 * Frank Robinson's #20 was retired by the Reds, Orioles and the then-Indians.
 * Rod Carew's #29 was retired by the Twins and Angels.
 * Hank Aaron's #44 was retired by the Braves and Brewers.
 * Reggie Jackson had his #9 retired by the Athletics, and his #44 retired by the Yankees.
 * Rollie Fingers' #34 was retired by the Athletics and Brewers.
 * Carlton Fisk had his #27 retired by the Red Sox, and his #72 retired by the White Sox.
 * Greg Maddux's #31 was retired by the Cubs and Braves.
 * Nolan Ryan had his #30 retired by the Angels, while his #34 is retired by the Astros and Rangers.
 * Wade Boggs's #12 was retired by the then-Devil Rays, and his #26 is retired by the Red Sox.
 * Roy Halladay's #32 was retired by the Blue Jays, and his #34 is retired by the Phillies.
 * Jackie Robinson’s #42 has been retired by every team in MLB, due to him breaking the color barrier in baseball.
 * Gil Hodges' #14 was retired by the Mets and Dodgers.
 * Willie Mays' #24 was retired by the Giants and Mets.

Excluding Jackie Robinson, only Frank Robinson and Nolan Ryan have had their number(s) retired by three teams. Managers Casey Stengel and Sparky Anderson have also had numbers retired by two teams. Stengel's #37 was retired by the Yankees and Mets. Anderson's #10 was retired by the Reds, and his #11 was retired by the Tigers.

Alternative methods of recognition
A number of teams have formal or informal policies of only retiring numbers of players inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, although there is no league-wide uniformity and teams sometimes break their own guidelines. As an alternative to retiring numbers, many teams have established other means of honoring former players, such as team-specific Halls of Fame (Angels, Astros, Athletics, Braves, Brewers, Cardinals, Indians, Mariners, Mets, Orioles, Padres, Rangers, Reds, Red Sox, and Twins) or Walls of Fame (Giants and Phillies), a Ring of Honor (Nationals) or Level of Excellence (Blue Jays). In addition, several teams have kept certain numbers out of circulation since a player left, but have not formally retired them. The Rangers introduced a third means of honoring former players while preparing to open their current home of Globe Life Field in 2020. In December 2019, a few months before the park's opening, the team announced that all of its retired numbers would be incorporated into the park's posted dimensions.

The Montreal Expos franchise retired jerseys in honor of four players, but returned the numbers to use upon moving to Washington, D.C., to begin play as the Washington Nationals in 2005, becoming the only MLB team with no retired numbers other than Jackie Robinson's No. 42. In 2010, the Nationals established a "Ring of Honor" which as of 2022 includes three of those Expos players (Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, and Tim Raines), along with the Expos' last and Nationals' first manager, Frank Robinson; Nationals players Iván "Pudge" Rodríguez, Jayson Werth, and Ryan Zimmerman; original Washington Senators (1901–1960) players Joe Cronin, Rick Ferrell, Goose Goslin, Bucky Harris, Walter Johnson, Heinie Manush, Sam Rice, Harmon Killebrew, and Early Wynn, as well as owner Clark Griffith; expansion Washington Senators (1961–1971) player Frank Howard; and Homestead Grays players Cool Papa Bell, Ray Brown, Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Cumberland Posey, and Jud Wilson. The Nationals finally retired their first number, Ryan Zimmerman's No. 11, on June 18, 2022.

The Miami Marlins had previously retired #5 in honor of their first team president, the late Carl Barger, but returned it to use entering the 2012 season when they relocated to the venue now known as LoanDepot Park. As of 2023, they are the only franchise with no retired numbers (aside from Jackie Robinson's).

Numbers kept out of circulation
Some teams have not formally retired certain numbers, but nonetheless kept them out of circulation. For example, the Los Angeles Dodgers' current policy is only to retire the numbers of longtime club members if they are inducted into the Hall of Fame; the lone exception was longtime Dodger player and coach Jim Gilliam, whose #19 was retired when he died of a cerebral hemorrhage during the Dodgers' 1978 postseason run. Nevertheless, the Dodgers informally kept Fernando Valenzuela's #34 out of circulation since he last played for the team in 1990. In 2023, the Dodgers announced that his number would be officially retired.

The San Francisco Giants have kept Tim Lincecum's #55 out of circulation since he departed after the 2015 season, though it is not formally retired.

The Giants also keep the uniform numbers of manager Bruce Bochy (15) and catcher Buster Posey (28) out of circulation.

The Miami Marlins have not issued José Fernández’s #16 since his death in September 2016.

The Milwaukee Brewers have not issued Jim Gantner’s #17 since his retirement.

The Seattle Mariners have kept the following numbers out of circulation since the departure of a popular member of the team who wore it: #19 (Jay Buhner), and #51 (initially for Randy Johnson, and later for Ichiro Suzuki).

On Opening Day of the 2012 season, the New York Mets unveiled a memorial "Kid 8" logo to honor the late Gary Carter. Although no Met has worn the number 8 since Carter's election to the Hall of Fame, it is not retired. The Mets have not issued #5 since the retirement of David Wright.

The Baltimore Orioles have not re-issued numbers 7, 44, and 46 since the passing of Cal Ripken Sr., Elrod Hendricks, and Mike Flanagan respectively. The team has placed a moratorium on the three numbers in their honors.

The Boston Red Sox have not re-issued uniform numbers 21 (Roger Clemens), 33 (Jason Varitek) and 49 (Tim Wakefield) since those players left the Red Sox or ended their careers. Varitek later reclaimed #33 upon joining the Red Sox coaching staff.

The St. Louis Cardinals did not reissue Albert Pujols's #5 from his first departure after the 2011 season until his return to the team in 2022. Since his retirement at the end of that season, the Cardinals have again kept the number out of circulation. Yadier Molina's #4 was also taken out of circulation upon his retirement in 2022, as was Adam Wainwright's #50 after his 2023 retirement.

After Darryl Kile's death in 2002, the teams he played for (Colorado Rockies, Houston Astros, and St. Louis Cardinals) took his #57 out of circulation. The Cardinals first re-issued the number in 2021 Spring Training, to pitcher Zack Thompson. Fan favorite Willie McGee has not had his #51 issued since he retired in 1999 except for when Bud Smith wore the number in 2001.

The Colorado Rockies have not re-issued Carlos Gonzalez's #5 since he left the team after 2018.

The Tampa Bay Rays have not re-issued Evan Longoria's #3 since he left the team after 2017.

The Detroit Tigers have not re-issued Justin Verlander's #35 since his departure from the team in 2017. The Tigers also removed Miguel Cabrera's #24 out of circulation following his 2023 retirement.

The Los Angeles Angels had not re-issued Nick Adenhart's #34, after he was killed in a car accident on April 9, 2009, although Noah Syndergaard requested and received the number when he joined the team in 2022. He stated that he wanted to wear his old Mets’ number as a tribute to Adenhart. The Angels have not re-issued Tim Salmon's #15 since his retirement at the end of the 2006 season. They have not retired Tyler Skaggs #45 since he died on July 1, 2019, although it is not in use anymore. For the remainder of the 2019 season, they put the 45 on the mound instead of the sponsor.

Number retired by Major League Baseball
Normally the individual clubs are responsible for retiring numbers. On April 15, 1997, Major League Baseball took the unusual move of retiring a number for all teams. On the 50th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking the baseball color line, his number 42 was retired throughout the majors, at the order of Commissioner Bud Selig. This meant that no future player on any major league team could wear number 42, although players wearing #42 at the time were allowed to continue wearing it (Mariano Rivera was the last active player to be grandfathered in, retiring after the 2013 season).

Starting in the 2007 season, the 60th anniversary of Robinson's Major League debut, players and coaches have all worn the number 42 as a tribute to Robinson on Jackie Robinson Day, April 15.

There is a lobby to have uniform #21 retired in all of baseball to honor Roberto Clemente.

Players who pre-date uniform numbers
Four teams have honored players who played before the advent of uniform numbers by placing their names among those of players whose numbers have been retired:
 * Philadelphia Phillies: Grover Cleveland Alexander, Chuck Klein; both are denoted with a stylized "P" at Citizens Bank Park (Klein had various numbers in the later years of his career, but never wore one consistently)
 * Detroit Tigers: Ty Cobb, Mickey Cochrane, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Hughie Jennings, George Kell, Heinie Manush; Cobb's name is displayed on the left-field wall of Comerica Park along with the players whose numbers have been retired; the others have their names displayed on the right-field wall (Cochrane actually wore #3 for the Tigers, and Kell wore three different numbers, but the Tigers have not retired these numbers), along with former manager Sparky Anderson. The Tigers eventually retired #3, but that was for Alan Trammell, not Cochrane.
 * San Francisco (New York) Giants: Christy Mathewson and John McGraw; both are denoted with "NY" and their names at Oracle Park
 * St. Louis Cardinals: Rogers Hornsby, denoted with an "SL" and his name at Busch Stadium

Broadcasters

 * Bob Murphy and Ralph Kiner – New York Mets; The radio booth at both Shea Stadium and Citi Field are named for the beloved, late Murphy. The television booth at Citi Field is named for Kiner, who continued to broadcast some home games for the Mets until his death in early 2014. In addition, a special memorial logo honoring Kiner, depicting a microphone along with his name and the years 1922–2014, was displayed at Citi Field on the left field wall adjacent to, but not as a part of, the Mets' retired numbers, from 2014 to 2016.  In the 2016 Mets yearbook, a sidebar in an article on Mike Piazza's upcoming number retirement implies that Kiner has been "retired" a la William A. Shea.  This was reinforced when the Mets' retired numbers were moved to the roof facade during the 2016 season to accommodate Mike Piazza's #31; Kiner's "number" was placed adjacent to the Shea and Jackie Robinson numbers, no longer separated from the others.
 * Jack Buck – St. Louis Cardinals; honored with a drawing of a microphone on the wall with the retired numbers.
 * Lon Simmons, Russ Hodges, and Jon Miller – San Francisco Giants; honored with stylized old-style radio microphone displayed in place of a number.
 * Marty Brennaman, Waite Hoyt, and Joe Nuxhall – Cincinnati Reds; honored with microphones by the broadcast booth.
 * Jerry Coleman – San Diego Padres; a "star on the wall" in reference to his trademark phrase "You can hang a star on that one!" The star is painted in gold on the front of the press box down the right field line, accompanied by Coleman's name in white. Upon Coleman's death in 2014, the broadcast booth at Petco Park was named in his honor.
 * Harry Kalas and Richie Ashburn – Philadelphia Phillies; At Citizens Bank Park, the restaurant built into the base of the main scoreboard is named "Harry the K's" in Kalas's honor. After Kalas's death, the Phillies' TV-broadcast booth was renamed "The Harry Kalas Broadcast Booth". It is directly next to the radio-broadcast booth, which is named "The Richie 'Whitey' Ashburn Broadcast Booth". They both also have statues at Citizens Bank Park (though Ashburn is in uniform for his statue).
 * Ernie Harwell – Detroit Tigers; honored with his name alongside the retired players on the Left-Centerfield Brick wall in Comerica Park and a statue & portrait at the stadium's front entrance. Honored with the Media Center named after him also.
 * Bob Uecker – "50 Years in Baseball" along with Uecker's name is next to the Brewers retired numbers at American Family Field.
 * Tom Cheek – Toronto Blue Jays; honored with a spot on the Rogers Centre's "Level of Excellence" bearing his name and, in place of a jersey number, 4,306 – his streak of consecutive regular-season broadcasts.
 * Harry Caray and Jack Brickhouse – Chicago Cubs: Caray is remembered inside and outside of Wrigley Field. A statue of him leading the crowd in "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" is near the bleacher entrance (originally at the corner of Addison Street and Sheffield Avenue), and a caricature of him adorns his former WGN-TV broadcast booth. Brickhouse's catch phrase, "Hey hey!" is memorialized in large red letters on each foul pole. (Brickhouse also has a statue on Michigan Avenue.)
 * Dave Niehaus – Seattle Mariners; the press box at T-Mobile Park was renamed the "Dave Niehaus Media Center" on April 8, 2011, prior to the Mariners' home opener against the Cleveland Indians. In addition, a part of First Avenue NW outside the stadium was renamed Dave Niehaus Way, and the wall in deep right-center field also has a microphone with a Dave Niehaus graphic. There is the Dave Niehaus Statue on the Main Concourse at Section 105.
 * Vin Scully – Los Angeles Dodgers; in 2001, the Dodgers honored Scully by naming the press box at Dodger Stadium the "Vin Scully Press Box". However, on January 29, 2016, the Los Angeles City Council in a unanimous vote, renamed Elysian Park Avenue to Vin Scully Avenue, changing the address of Dodger Stadium to 1000 Vin Scully Ave.
 * Arch McDonald and Bob Wolff - Washington Senators: MacDonald and Wolff's names are on the Washington Nationals' Ring of Honor at Nationals Park.
 * Bill King – Oakland Athletics; The Athletics named their broadcast facilities the "Bill King Broadcast Booth" after King's death in 2005.

Owners and contributors

 * The initials of the late San Diego Padres owner Ray Kroc are painted in gold on the front of the pressbox down the right field line, accompanied by his name in white.
 * The initials of the late Boston Red Sox owners Tom and Jean Yawkey are rendered in Morse code and painted in white on the manual scoreboard on Fenway Park's Green Monster.
 * Charles Bronfman was inducted into the Expos Hall of Fame as its inaugural member in 1993, and a circular patch placed on the right field wall with his name, the number 83, which he used to wear during spring training, and the words "FONDATEUR / FOUNDER".
 * On April 8, 2008, the final opening day at Shea Stadium, the New York Mets unveiled a "Shea" logo which was displayed on the left-field fence next to the team's retired numbers. The stadium was named for William Shea, a prominent lawyer who was responsible for the return of National League baseball to New York.
 * Walter A. Haas Jr., honorary jersey retired (with stylized Old English "A" in place of a number) in 1995, located in right field. Owner of the Oakland Athletics from 1980 until 1995. Haas purchased the team from Charles O. Finley in 1980, saving the team from potentially moving out of the area.
 * At the start of the 2007 season, the Kansas City Royals designated Seat #9 in Section 127, Row C at Kauffman Stadium as the "Buck O'Neil Legacy Seat" in honor of Negro leagues legend and Royals scout Buck O'Neil. During each home game, the Royals honor a fan who exemplifies O'Neil's spirit of humanitarianism and community service by inviting that fan to sit in the Buck O'Neil Legacy Seat.
 * Paul Beeston and Pat Gillick, the Toronto Blue Jays's former president and general manager, respectively, have been inducted into the team's Level of Excellence, alongside the team's retired numbers. In addition, a Baseball Hall of Fame banner for Gillick hangs in the Rogers Centre rafters.
 * A statue of former Arlington, Texas mayor Tom Vandergriff is located at Vandergriff Plaza at Globe Life Park alongside those of former Texas Rangers Nolan Ryan and Iván Rodríguez, both of whom had their numbers retired. Vandergriff was responsible for bringing Major League Baseball to the Dallas–Fort Worth area.
 * The New York Yankees' spring training facility, George M. Steinbrenner Field is named in honor of late Yankees owner George Steinbrenner.

Umpires

 * See:


text: Talk:North Carolina State University

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:North Carolina State University


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Chancellor of the University of Mississippi

The chancellor of the University of Mississippi is the chief administrator of the University of Mississippi in Oxford, Mississippi. The position was previously referred to as "president" until chancellor Frederick Augustus Porter Barnard suggested the change in 1858.

Chancellor John Davis Williams, who served during the Ole Miss riot of 1962 and most of the civil rights movement, attempted to remain neutral, stating "My business is to educate the students sent to me."


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Bank of Slovenia

The Bank of Slovenia (Banka Slovenije) is the Slovenian member of the Eurosystem and has been the monetary authority for Slovenia from 1991 to 2006, issuing the Slovenian tolar. Since 2014, it has also been Slovenia's national competent authority within European Banking Supervision.

Overview
Based in Ljubljana, it was established on 25 June 1991. It is a non-governmental independent institution, obliged to periodically present a report on its operation to the National Assembly of Slovenia. Its primary task is to take care of the stability of the domestic currency and to ensure the liquidity of payments within the country and with foreign countries. It also acts as the supervisor of the banking system.

The bank is headquartered in a prominent building in the center of Ljubljana, erected in 1920-1923 for the Ljubljana Credit Bank.

Governors

 * France Arhar (1991–2001)
 * Mitja Gaspari (2001–2007)
 * Marko Kranjec (2007–2013)
 * Boštjan Jazbec (2013–2018)
 * Boštjan Vasle (since 2019)

title: Bank of Slovenia


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Talk:Ahnenerbe

Ahnenerbe in Greece
I read the article because I was particularly interested in the activities of Ahnenerbe in Greece. While I found no mention of the country, I follow one of the links, which focused on what I was looking for. While there is an article on the subject, I discovered that the site which the link belongs is administered by people who support nationalistic organisations, which makes me doubt the credibility of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.178.118 (talk) 14:01, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Untitled
Anyone else notice that most of the claims of medical experiments comes from an "independent" publisher and plagiarizes Soviet experiments described in Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.35.153 (talk) 05:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be little doubt that the Deutsches Ahnenerbe and SS Ahnenerbe existed, and that they were interested in the occult. But most of this article in its current form seems to take this to fanciful lengths -- can this be backed up with cites? (And no, Hellboy doesn't count as a reliable source). -- The Anome 08:08, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this description of the Ahnenerbe, at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum archive is in the public domain... its provenance is unclear. -- The Anome 12:26, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi, I remember seeing a 1 hour special on this on PBS. Also, here is a German encyclopedia about Nazi history: . So, this is real for sure. But I can not check all the details. Awolf002 00:10, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that was the Michael Wood Channel 4 documentary. It seems the most-quoted references are

':Kater, Michael H.: Das "Ahnenerbe" der SS 1935-1945. Ein Beitrag zur Kulturpolitik des Dritten Reiches. München 1997. ISBN 348656529X

 * Jacobeit, Wolfgang / Lixfeld, Hannsjost / Bockhorn, Olaf (Hg.): Völkische Wissenschaft. Gestalten und Tendenzen der deutschen und österreichischen Volkskunde in der ersten Hälfte des 20. Jahrhunderts. Wien/Köln/Weimar 1994. ISBN 3-205-98208-8

but they are not that much use to me as a) I haven't got them b) I have only a very basic knowledge of German. Are there any proficient German-speakers here with access to these books? -- The Anome 10:26, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Tibet
Shouldn't there be some mention of Tibet and Seven Years in Tibet's Heinrich Harrer?

 * Added a barebones bit about Tibet, in the new "expeditions" part...can't believe we didn't have anything before Sherurcij 13:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Random info for later use, if anybody can interpret
Mainly restricted to Eastern Europe were the activities of the research council "Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft Das Ahnenerbe", also subordinated to the SS. The academic members of the Ahnenerbe chiefly confiscated archaeological collections and specialist literature but also carried out excavations in occupied territories. Material of the Ahnenerbe can be found in record group NS21 "Ahnenerbe" in the Bundesarchiv Koblenz as well as in the record group Research Ahnenerbe in the Bundesarchiv Außenstelle Berlin-Zehlendorf. Sherurcij 06:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Finnish cultural studies - Yrjö Grönhagen (Joined in Feb 37, unit was dissolved in Sept 39)

Genkunde/Genetics - Josef Otto Plassmanns (Joined in early 37, unit dissolved in April 41) - Hans Robert Scultertus (Joined in early 37)

NNbildkunde/National Image Lore - Hermann Wirth]] (March 37 - Dec 38) [[Karl Theodor Weigel - Dec 38 - April 43

Sippenzeichen/Ethnic Indicators - Karl Konrad Ruppel (Oct 37 to Nov 30th 39) Rolf Hohne (Feb-May 38) Hansschleif (May 38-April40) Herbert Jankuhn (April40-onwards)

Biology and Altertumskunde/Archaeology Rudolf Till (Feb 38) Bruno Schweizer (April38)

Rachwissenschaft/Linguistics and Land Bruno Schweizer (March38)

NST Emerich Schaffran (May 15th 1938) Philipp Freiherr von Lutzelburg (July 1938)

Rschnn Volkskunde/cultural anthropology Richard Wolfrun (September 1938)

Enkunde Steinhauser (October 1938)

Angewandte Naturkunde/Applied Nature Studies Eduard Tratz (Jan 39) Walter Greite (Jan 39)

Neuere Geschichte/Modern History Hermann Loffler (April 39) - SS Historian who wrote "Entwicklung und Aufgaben der Geschichtswissenschaft in Deutschland/Development and exercise of history studies in Germany"

Uwesen Martin Rudolph (April 39)

T Viktor Christian (April 39) - ''Born March 30, 1185, professor, 1942 rector of University of Vienna?, shipped Jewish books from Burgenland

Sforschung and Volkskunde Hermann Harmjanz (April 39 - April 43) - is this meant to be Heinrich Harmjanz?

Altertumskunde/archaeology Franz Dirlmeier (May 1939)

Forschung and Expedition/Research and Expedition Ernst Schafer (Jan 40-Jan 16th 1943)

Deutsche Rechtsgeschicthe/German History of Law Wolfgang Ebel (1942)

Rierung Pohl (Feb 1942) Paul Lehmann (April 42)

Ksforschung Ludwig Mulhausen (July 42) Wolfgang Krause (April 43)

Sinnbildkunde/Study of Allegories Karl Theodor Weigel (April 43)

Germanische Sprach und -chaft/Germanic language studies Richard von Kienle (April 43)

Ik Heinz Brucher (November 1st, 43)

Germanic music Anton Quellmalz (December 43)

Members of the Kuratorium: Gauleiter Dr. Alfred Meyer Siegelbewahrer (keeper of the seal) des Reichsbauernrates SS-Staf. Erwin Metzner, Berlin

Präsident des Kuratoriums: SS-Hstuf. Prof. Walther Wüst, ordentlicher Universitätsprofessor, Dekan der Philosophischen Fakultät der Unversität München

stellv. Präsident: SS-Staf. Dr. Wilhelm Kinkelein; Hauptabteilungsleiter im Stabsamt des Reichsbauernführers

Dr. Alfred Kraut (possibly a clerk?)

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:5zdtIPup9qcJ:www.nypress.com/print.cfm%3Fcontent_id%3D1054+ahnenerbe+uniform&hl=en

When Himmler became Minister of the Interior in 1943 Rudolf Brandt became Chief of the Ministerial Office; when Himmler became President of the Ahnenerbe Society, Rudolf Brandt became liaison officer between Himmler and the Reich Secretary of the Ahnenerbe Society, defendant Wolfram Sievers. -Nuremburg

Document Evidence 303 "THE AHNENERBE"

The President The Reich Leader SS H. HIMMLER

Trustee SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. WALTHER WUEST

The Reich Business Manager SS Hauptsturmfuehrer WOLFRAM SIEVERS

Reich Business Management

Deputy Reich Business Manager SS Obersturmfuehrer HERBERT MENZ

Consultant Secretary DR. GISELA SCHMITZ-KAHLMANN

The Special Commissioner of the Reich Leader SS Sturmbannfuehrer BRUNO GALKE

Administration SS Untersturmbannfuehrer HANS-ULRICH HUEHNE

Graduate of a Business College ALFONS EBEN

http://www.google.com/u/Mazal?q=Ahnenerbe&sa=Google+Search

Various members

 * Walter Jankuhn
 * Oberfuhrer Walther Wüst
 * Astrologer Wilhelm Wulff
 * Gunther Kirchhoff, largely regarded as a crackpot, Himmler finally removed him from the order after the outbreak of WWII
 * SS Professor Viktor Christian
 * Geschaftsfuhrer Bruno Galke
 * Archaeologist Rolf Hohne
 * Archaeologist Hans Schleif
 * Herbert Jankuhn
 * Historian Wilhelm Ebel joined in 1943, according to a message to a 'Kleinkamp' on July 5th 1943, believed to be Rudolf Kleinkamp

Worked closely with

 * Friedrich Hielscher
 * Ernst Jünger
 * Jewish philosopher Martin Buber
 * Polish professor Peter Paulsen
 * Sigrid Hunke wrote extensively in the Ahnenerbe publication Germanien
 * Kurt Tackenberg, according to

Mountaineering
"When Germany overran the Caucasus in early 1942, they stationed 10,000 troops on Mount Elbrus. Three mountaineers believed to be from the Ahnenerbe held a ceremony in which they planted the Nazi flag at the peak, referring to it as a 'sacred Aryan mountain'."

I've a photo to hand of a group of mountaineers (at least 15) heading up a snowy slope, marked as
 * In 1942, a combined group of men from two Gebirgs divisions conquered Mount Elbrus in Russia. This photograph shows the party moving off at the start of the operation, carrying the unit flags which they placed in the snow of Elbrus's summit; Adolf Hitler described it as the 'most pointless' operation in the war.

There's a second photograph showing two flags at the summit; one is the same as in the Tibet photo, and the other appears to be a brigade flag; the two divisions appear to have been the 1st and 4th Gebirgs, judging by where they were. Could this be the origin of the "three mountaineers believed to be from the Ahnenerbe"? Shimgray | talk | 14:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Wow, sounds intriguing - I'd certainly love a scan of those photographs if you're able (or even photographing them with a digital camera). As per sources, I'm afraid I'm horrible at referencing, and don't remember where exactly that information came from.  Looking online I find reference to

On Hitler’s order, Nazi Mountain Division Edelweiss was trying to hoist their symbols on Mount Elbrus

''Units of the 1st motorized German division “Edelweiss” captured the southern slopes of Elbrus, the highest peak of the Big Caucasian Ridge...And on August 21st, 1942 they hoisted a Nazi flag on Elbrus peaks. ''

''1942 August 23 A swastika banner is said to have been planted atop Mount Elbrus in the Caucasus Mountains by a special SS detachment. The flag they planted was allegedly blessed according to the secret, mystical rites of the SS inner circle.'' (note the August 21/23 difference)

in 1942, Hitler, because of his occult ideas about Asia & Tibet, was excited to plant a Nazi flag on the highest peak of the Caucasian mountains, Mt. Elbrus, at the specific time of 11 a.m. (From a conspiracy theory website, though...and everything I've heard would suggest you're correct about Hitler's summary, not this website. People like to assume that because Himmler was wildly esoteric, therefore by extrapolation they can say Hitler was as well)

and finally, from William Shirer, one of the more definitive sources on the Reich, we have ''German troops had reached the Volga just north of Stalingrad on August 23. Two days before the swastika had been hoisted on Mount Elbrus, the highest peak in the Caucasus Mountains. ''

So I'm thinking you're probably right, and they were not Ahnenerbe mountaineers, though it's confusing that it gets varyingly labeled "a special SS detachment", and such. There's still at least the suggestion of the Ahnenerbe organizing the flag-planting, but that it was likely just SS troops (and apparently more than a small number) who did the actual planting. Out of interest, do you happen to have a date/source for the cutline below the photo? Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 14:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll try and get scans later, but there were no specific dates. I have read about it elsewhere, possibly in Shirer - but I certainly remember the Hitler quote from somewhere else; I'll have a quick flick through other sources and see if anything turns up. Shimgray | talk | 16:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * These two scans are of pages from the German Army Handbook 1939-1945 by James Lucas, ISBN 0753703335. Image:Elbrus-p47.png and Image:Elbrus-p48.png (large files, feel free to scale them down). The images themselves may be out of copyright, but I dunno; I'll delete these scans in a week or so, since they're only of passing interest and are a bit iffy for fair-use, unless you feel it's essential to hang on to them.
 * It's probably worth nothing that these aren't described as SS units; indeed, as far as I can tell no SS Gebirgsjager units were active in this end of Russia at the time. They seem to have been regular mountain troops, with no SS connection, though perhaps if you look in detail you might find an attatched SS battalion somewhere. One comment I vaguely remember referred to them simply as sport-mountaineers, who had presumably ended up in a Gebirgs division through being especially suited, taking a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...
 * My guess is a bit like yours - it was a slightly weird thing for the Germans to do, so people assume There Must Have Been Complex Reasons. But, then, a lot of people would probably read the paperwork for a routine night-interceptor flight over Hamburg in 1944 and decide that it must have been to chase UFOs on direct order from Himmler's astrologer... Shimgray | talk | 17:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Well it's a good guess we could use as a license for the images, I thought it was interesting that Gebirgsjager Edelweiss image was http://bundeswehr.kai-schoetteldreier.de/gebirgsjager/edelweiss.jpg, not the star pennant in the photographs, yet another mystery I suppose.
 * http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/badcattoys_1876_1990372 is marketed as a Gebirgsjager Unterfeldwebel, 1. Gebirgs Division, Mt. Elbrus, Caucasus 1942, and the Edelweiss Division appears to have been the 6th, so I assume the "two divisions" mentioned would be the 1st and 6th? But battlefront.co.nz says that 4. Gebirgsdivision - On 21 August 1942, troops from this division stood on the peak of the 5,633 metre high Mount Elbrus in the Caucasus, one of the furthest penetrations of the German advance.
 * Frustratingly, I also found a reference saying August 22, 1942 Meanwhile, elements of the 1st Gebirgsjager (Mountain) Division, raise a German flag on the peak of Mt. Elbrus, the highest point in the Caucasus Mountains., so that now gives a date of Aug 21, 22 and 23 as the possible dates.
 * In your one image, it's difficult to tell, but it looks like five of the figures are helmeted, so I'd discard the idea of them being just "sport mountaineers"

Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC) -- Ah, think I spotted my own error, I assumed the "Edelweiss" referred to the the Gebirgsjager Edelweiss, although it actually references a Motorized Edelweiss, so perhaps that was a seperate support group. In that case, Div 1 & 4 would seem to be correct, although that flag with the sun doesn't seem to support any of the divisions Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Oy, but to prove I'm in over my head, I just found a Slovak who posted on a messageboard about the SS Gebirgsjager 7. Prinz Eugen on Elbrus, lol Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 18:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I have a law exam to study for, but since you mentioned it, I've been obsessive...so I finally found this thread, at the fairly reputable axishistory.com http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=28721&highlight=elbrus ''On 21 August 1942, a joint 23-man team from 1st and 4th Mountain Divisions (General der Gebirgstruppe Rudolf Konrad’s XXXXIX Mountain Army Corps), led by Hauptmann Heinz Groth and Hauptmann Max Gämmerler from each division respectively, scaled the 5,633-meter-high Mount Elbrus, the highest mountain in the Caucasus, and planted the Reich War Flag at the summit. Although an impressive feat, Hitler seemed to view the event as mere grandstanding''

There's another summary however ''18 Germans made the ascent on the mountain (14 from the 1st Mtn Div & 4 from the 4th Mtn Div) and Oberfeldwebel Kümmerle planted the German battle flag, whilst the standards of both the 1st & 4th Mtn Divisions were planted alongside on August 21st 1942. '' which differs on which officer led the expedition, and whether it was an 18 or 23 man team Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 18:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Just when you think you have it ;) http://forum.axishistory.com/files/0f4.jpg is a very different peak, though I read that they did "plant the flag on the wrong peak" several times, so I guess we have no way of knowing which image was ultimately "the right peak" of Elbrus. However, we also get the information here's a pic in Signal 20/1942 of Oberleutnant Spindler during climb and caption says that he was in charge.However there's a lively chapter of that climb in Carell's Hitler Moves East and it says that Hauptmann Groth of 4.Gebirgs was in command, then says 16 men from 4th Division under Hauptmann Groth, and 5 men from the 1st Division under Hauptmann Gämmerler
 * In summary though, there does appear to be very little evidence (at least online) that the Ahnenerbe sponsored the expedition in any way Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 18:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The book had a short section on flags; a black-coloured-black triangular flag was of a brigade or divisional commander, IIRC, with the colour representing division type.
 * The 1st and 4th were both operating in the Caucasus, and were likely to have been the relevant units. No other gebirgs divisions, SS or regular, were operating in the area at the time so far as I can tell (they were mostly in Norway). I suspect the guess as to the 6th came from the flag looking like it had a flower on it - it's a bit wobbly in outline, like petals - but note that the emblem of the 1st was almost identical to that of the 6th. The history section of the article on the 1st is worth reading, in fact; it mentions fighting in the Elbrus area.
 * "The second ad-hoc formation of the 1. and 4.Gebirgs under Le Suire fought in the highest positions held by any unit in all of German military history when the 4300 meter heights of Mt. Elbrus in the deep Caucasus region was held by the Gebirgsjäger against repeated Soviet attacks and the harsh high alpine elements."
 * My reference to sport climbers, incidentally, was that IIRC the discussion I read suggested the instigators had been recreational mountain climbers before the war, conscripted, found themselves next to the highest mountain any of them was likely to see, and decided to take the opportunity to go off for a few days. After all, they had all this alpine equipment, they were being paid to be out there, there was a vaguely respectable military excuse for doing it...
 * On the whole, I think it's worth cutting out, as not an Ahnenerbe operation - maybe a short entry under the mountain article? I wonder how many of the others would be equally iffy under examination... Shimgray | talk | 19:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice point on the 1st and 6th emblems, and by all means feel free to examine the others (Brazil as I mention is suspect, as is the Pravda article) :) Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 19:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hrm, although on the other hand, I think I just found a reference to Ahnenerbe involvement in the 1981 book "Hitler's Secret Sciences" by Nigel Pennick ISBN 0854354646 Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 19:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Looking at the Tibet expedition, I notice the summit was the Reichs War Flag, not the "normal" Nazi flag. It seems a bit odd that a 1938 SS/civilian expedition would put that up - I wonder if this is a misattributed Elbrus photo?
 * As for the others... well, yeah, Pravda these days manages to be an even less reliable source than it was when it was the mouthpiece of the Kremlin, which is saying something - if they announced the sky was blue, I'd double-check. I can't contest any of the others specifically, but Brazil does smell pretty strongly of a crank story... Shimgray | talk | 20:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Useful book?
I was flicking through The sacred beetle, a collection of essays in science, and found one written by Samuel Goudsmit which mentions the Ahnernerbe. This essay is apparently taken from his book "Alsos", which was written after his time leading the post-war project to study German scientific research, and so is likely a pretty good secondary source. There's a 2005 reprint of this (ISBN 1563964155) - but it's £20, so a bit much for me to get on a whim. Anyone have access to a library copy? Shimgray | talk | 19:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Another useful book - "Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust" (ISBN 0007148127, Fourth Estate, 2006) is about the Ahnenerbe, mostly focusing on their role in the Holocaust. Shimgray | talk | 22:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm reading the book The Master Plan right now and it says (p51) that the organization was called "Deutsches Ahnenerbe - Studiengesellschaft für Geistesurgeschichte" (German Ancestral Heritage - the Society for the Study of the History of Primeval Ideas). It also says "the formally stated goal... was 'to promote the science of ancient intellectual history.' " I was just wondering why none of that was included - I'm not all the way done with the book so I may just not have read something yet, which is why I posted it here instead of the actual article. If I get done with the book before anyone responds to this I'll put it in the article then. -- User: Foxhunt King 20:45,14 June 2006 (CMT)
 * Hrm, I think I've seen the other translation of the name more often, but I do like the "promote the science of ancient intellectual history" quote, does the book list a source for that wording? Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 01:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost done with the book and my normal work laptop should be finished getting repaired by the time I'm done reading, so when I'm to that point I plan on doing a "truth audit" on a lot of this article, cross-referencing and replacing what cannot be verified with stuff that can as well as adding information on other expeditions, such as to Karelia. I've been taking fairly detailed notes on the book so working on this article should be quick and precise. Hopefully I can do some good work on this article by the beginning of July.--Foxhunt_King 03:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

A much needed remodelling
Today I finished The Master Plan and began working on redoing this article. I went through the article in MS Word and designated everything according to whether it was true and well written, I didn't have information on it and will leave it as is, should be removed, or needs to be re-written for some reason. In the near future I'm going to be going through the whole article and redoing what needs to be done. I'll post on here when I'm done. Until then I'll periodically put what I have so far on here because of the formatting changes I have to make when I change it from MS-Word format to Wikipedia format. Until then this article may look weird because it has old and new on it, but bear with me and we'll have a great article when I'm done, maybe even worth featuring. (note - I'm not signed in on this computer, it's not my personal one, but I'm user: Foxhunt_King)

 * I really appreciate all the new information you've provided, I may minorly tweak some sentence structure and such over the coming week, but overall I really like the new addition. I don't suppose The Master Plan has any illustrations or photographs we might be able to use? It's unfortunate that so many parts of this article are unillustrated. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 22:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The book has two sections of pictures in it - I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to stuff like copyright issues, but after I get done with the writing for this article I might look into it. Furthermore, I finally got my laptop back (although I hate Gateway now) so I'll have my laptop here to work on the article from the comfort of my own home.  I have a few more topics I want to add and have a few pre-existing topics marked for revision, so I'll probably be working at this for another week or so.  Note: I have this article saved as a text file in Microsoft Word which I copy and paste from to post on here, so if any changes are made to this article before I'm finished remodelling it, I may accidentally erase them if I have to copy a section from my Word document to here, so make sure anything that gets changed doesn't get changed again. Also note: I'm not very good with picture placement on here, so after I'm done if someone who knows how wants to move the pictures around to make it look better, go for it. JW 09:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If you check the back of the book (or immediately underneath the photograph), it should list the copyright holders for each photograph - in most/many/some cases that's fine. Just make sure to include the details of who/where the book got each photograph from :) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 22:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Status report

 * I'm making fair progress on this article - I haven't had as much time as I've been hoping for to work on it, but I'm doing what I can. I still want to revise the Iceland part and do a lot of revising on the Crimea part.  I also have some additions, including the expedition through the Middle East, Himmler's interest in Thor's Hammer, and a summary of what happened to high members of the Ahnenerbe after the war.

 * An idea I wanted to bring up now was taking out the part on the world ice theory (Welteislehre) and making it a separate wikipedia article. In The Master Plan there are a couple pages about it I could use to make an article.  In this article, only one sentence really concerns the Ahnenerbe, and I'm not sure if it's even true because my book says nothing about it (I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying I don't have any information on the part about the institute being created per se).  I've had a lot on my plate lately, but once I'm done with the revision of this article I can create that article if that sounds good.

 * Definitely a fan of that idea Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 16:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

JW 11:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, I think the German soldiers part should probably be removed. Ukraine said the skeletons were from German soldiers, and the Ahnenerbe would have had absolutely no reason to be doing experimets on German soldiers 1)outside of Germany and 2) in Crimea at the time - while Germany was occuping Ukraine the Wehrmacht was sieging Sevastopol, Stalingrad and Leningrad; the tide of the war was beginning to turn, and Hitler needed all the men he could get to fight.  The unlikelihood of the Ahnenerbe carrying out experiments on Germans in the Ukraine combined with Pravda's track record and the lack of real substance in this part of the article makes me think it should be removed.  Sorry if I want to cut too much, but I want to trim the fat in hopes of someday possibly getting this article featured.

 * No problem, I actually had a bounty on this article getting featured, it's a pet project of mine I suppose. But I think we should leave that part in, though probably write it to be a bit more clear that...well, it's Pravda. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 16:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I finished my Tibet writing today and moved around some pictures to make it look better. I'm going to be away from an internet hookup until Sunday night, but in the meantime I plan to work on articles for the Middleast expedition and probably Iceland if I have time since there's a lot to write about the middleast. Depending on what time I get back Sunday night I'll probably upload some stuff and put some more work into this article then. Hopefully the article will be done in a week or so.JW 23:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm reinserting the copyedits, just as rewrite of the information since we strive to be an encyclopaedia, not a book :) By the way, just a question, you mention that they feared internment if caught in the British-controlled Yarlung Valley in Summer 1939, but earlier said that the British had never been allowed into the region. Any clarification possible? Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 23:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * If it's unclear it can be rewritten: India was a British colony, but the place the British weren't allowed in was a remote area in Tibet which was not part of Britian's Indian colony - as far as I know Britain had no reason to take over Tibet so they therefore didn't, but Tibet liked to appease Britain and normally did what the British wanted to avoid any problems. That may make it seem like they were actually under British rule in the area.  Furthermore, if the team was in the region when WW2 started, Britain probably would've had the Tibetan military take the team captive and hand them over to British authorities.

 * Also, the only plausible way to get back to Germany was to fly out of India or go home by boat. The team had a hair-brained idea to get back to Germany largely by foot or something like that, but either that or going through war-zone China were the only alternatives to leaving through British-India.

Then Bohmers moved on to Les Trois-Frères, “where Himmler and where so many other Nazis had long dreamed of standing – in the shrine of the ancient dead, in the dark embrace of the ancestors." - Did Pringle say that part, or Himmler himself? Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 22:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Pringle said it (quote frm the book) JW 00:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Right now the other activities section just has Italy under it, but I have a few other sections I'm going to add to it later. I just wanted to point that out so it doesn't seem like I made a new section for just one thing.JW 19:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

World Ice Theory (Welteislehre)
I've had that world ice theory section on my mind for awhile, so here's what I've got about the topic to say: 1)there already is another wikipage on it, 2)the part on here is only three sentences long, and 3)the section on here doesn't cite a source and I googled hans scultetus and found four webpages talking about him and the ahnenerbe department he supposedly headed - two of those got their information straight from wikipedia, one didn't seem very credible, and the fourth simply cited a book at the end of the page (The Occult Roots of Nazism). Therefore I plan on taking this section out unless someone gives me a reason not to before I'm done with my rewrite of this article.  If for no other reason, as far as I know wikipolicy is that if something does not cite a reference it is fair game for being deleted.

 * Today I inserted the Bolivia section of the article, and in it I made sure to talk about the Welteislehre, so, I got rid of the section in the article now. I don't even think it's a big deal, especially since there are probably only two of us who look at this discussion page nowadays, but I thought I'd post it on here. JW 02:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Q
''Through Baghdad the team went north to Assur where they met Sheikh Adjil el Yawar, a leader of the Shammar Bedouin tribe, and commander of the northern Camel Corps. '', which camel corps is that? Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 01:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

...the one in the North? The book refers to it as "the northern Camel Corps" so that's all I know - I would assume it was part of the Iraqi army at the time. When I was writing that I browsed around for more information on camel corps (looking for something to link it too) but didn't find anything. The book didn't explain what the camel corps was or else I'd put that in.JW 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Update

 * The IP address 128.255.18.XXX is me when I'm using an engineering computer, so any changes made by it are comming from me.
 * I removed the Ukraine section because it has nothing to do with the Ahnenerbe and doesn't mention anything about the organization in it, nor does it give any information that is relative anywhere else in the article.
 * The "involvement of german soldiers" title is misleading and since it happened in 2002 it can easily be put under the post-ww2 section to better organize the article.
 * I've fiished all my expedition and planned expetion entries, but I'm still going to add to other parts of the article: I'm going to revise the medical experiments section with a lot of new information as well as augment the information on the trials of members of the Ahnenerbe. I'm not 100% sure I'll keep this format, but I'll do a few more people and see how it looks.  I'm also going to add to the "other ahnenerbe activities" section with entries on the Thor's hammer project (when himmler wanted to make a super weapon), the skeleton collection of Hirt and Beger, and put information back in about the relocation of the ahnenerbe headquarters near the end of the war.
 * Sherurcij - in general I like your tweaking - I write a lot when I have something to say and in general I think you do a good job of condensing it without changing the information it conveys. Some stuff I have personal issues with, but when the article is finished being produced we can polish it.JW 07:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The Ukraine part was Ahnenerbe-funded, I'll rewrite it to make that more clear, sorry.
 * No problem with renaming the stupid Pravda thing, under Post-War, I just didn't want it connected with Ukraine's actual pre-war and wartime history.
 * Was Thor's Hammer specifically Ahnenerbe, or should we perhaps create a new Thor's Hammer Project article for it? I'm just starting to worry about the size of this article
 * No problem, I'm far from perfect, and while I try to maintain the information as clearly as possible, I do make mistakes. I'll try to be more vigilant in asking any questions I'm uncertain about, on the talk page :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 13:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I know it's getting pretty long, and I've tried to keep my recent additions shorter - hopefully when I'm all done I'll have the time (/motivation lol) to go back and condense the whole thing even more.
 * Today I revised the medical experiments section but I don't have time to finish going through the chapter of my book regarding it right now, but when I have more time I'm likely to add more on it. -Fox 21:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Note to self
I've just removed the part on Wiligut temporarily, while trying to decide how to structure the article, in terms of leadership changes and such.

An Austrian colonel in World War I, Wiligut was a mystic who believed he was a descendant of Thor, a god in Norse mythology, calling himself Weisthor (English: Wise Thor''). In 1933 Wiligut had helped pick out Wewelsburg castle as a “Nordic academy, a cross between a monastic retreat and a finishing school” for senior SS officials. Himmler leased the castle in November 1933 before proceeding to renovate it, putting in mystic designs, rooms dedicated to the ancestors and excavating the surrounding area for artifacts. ''

''For his help in the project, Himmler gave Wiligut an office in RuSHA and promoted him to SS-Standartenführer and later to SS-Brigadeführer. Wiligut would continue his service for Himmler until it was revealed he had been in a psychiatric hospital, at which time it was decided to give him an early retirement. ''

 * I have some stuff on a demo team being sent to scuttle Wewelsburg castle if you can find a place for it - I looked and didn't find a place appropriate to put it in so I didn't, but if you do let me know. -FOX

 * The Wewelsberg article at least, should be updated with it :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 22:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

So close!
Today I added more on Rascher (why I originally devoted a whole section to him) and talked about the HQ relocation as well as some other stuff. The only thing I have left on my list of things to do is finish the trials section and write any section summaries that are needed - then I'll be DONE! :) -FOX 21:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Done! (with text)
Yesterday I changed the intro and got rid of the useless short section summaries that were there. That means I'm all done with the text! I have some scanned pictures I'm going to see about getting on wikipedia for this article, but I've never messed with putting pictures on here before. JW 15:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sherurcij
I added some photos for use in the article, but I'm not sure about how to do attributions and cite fair use reasoning, so if you could take this info and make sure the photos are taken care of, that would be swell.

The images I've uploaded - the reference in the book.

 * Image:Beger_at_trial_1970.JPG - ullstein-dpa (85)
 * Image:Wolfram_Sievers_Doctors_Trial.JPG  - USHMM, courtesy of Hedwig Wachenheimer Epstein
 * Image:Franz_Altheim_with_Trautmann.JPG - Frobenius-Institut
 * Image:Yrjo_no_caption.JPG - Juhani Grönhagen
 * Image:Gateway_to_the_sun.jpg - Courtesy of Javier Nuñez de Arco
 * Image:Himmler_inspecting_cotton.jpg - USHMM, courtesy of James Blevins

Other than taking care of this though, I'm done! :) JW 16:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I touched them all up, except the Gateway to the Sun image. Because the photographer is still alive today, we could conceivably be infringing on his ability to sell that photograph. (Pringle likely paid him royalties for its rights) - so I've replaced the image with a Public Domain image of the same structure already on WP :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Questions
We claim that Beger was sentenced to 3 years imprisonment in April 1971, and that in 1974 it was appealed and moved to 3 years probation - wouldn't his sentence have already been completed at that time? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * From what I understand from the book the appeal was filed before he was incarcerated - I'm not a law-buff but I gather what happened was he was given a sentence but wasn't like taken to prison after the trial like you see on tv. JW 22:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if you'd do me a huge favour, and go through and standardise the references so they're all "References", rather than half being references, and half being "Notes". Much thanks! I'm going to tag those photos tonight :) I must say, I say we give it a few days to tidy ourselves up, maybe debate a few points, see what else we can find, then I say we submit for GA status, and maybe even look towards getting featured. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 23:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

DragonRouge, et al
The one issue this artile faces is its size, there's sipmly too much information hbeing thrown at the reader, it extends past 32k and even just scrolling down - one can see that its length is a factor working against it. We're therefore trying to keep all writing as compact as possible, and where possible, move information on say, Bruno Kress' marriage to his personal article, rather than in here. The former name of Iraq, similarly, belongs in the "History of Iraq" article, not in an article dealing with Nazi scientists. It's just a matter of squeezing everything together as much as we can. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 16:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree
I agree that this article needs to be condensed - when I write I elaborate and write in book style, which works against me on Wikipedia when I write a lot of information. Plus I'm one of those people that can't go back and tamper with their work, I'd rather rewrite something than make lots of tiny adjustments - so please people, feel free to do my dirty work for me lol.JW 05:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Bayeux Tapestry
In the article, it is claimed that "The Ahnenerbe took great interest in the 900-year-old Bayeux Tapestry ... since it contained images of the Germanic Franks solidly defeating their enemies." Is there a reference for this? I ask only because the Bayeux Tapestry depicts the Norman Invasion of England, in which the "Germanic" Normans defeated the equally "Germanic" Anglo-Saxons!--Oboroten 04:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The nazis weren't too fussy about historical claims being correct; they just needed to sound right when presented in a highly selective context. 82.176.196.155 13:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sites in other languages that might hold useful information

 * —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sherurcij (talk • contribs) 05:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Ahnenerbe
The BBC documentary claims a 1939 expedition went to Peru in search of 'Tertiary'(sp?) people, who populated the world in an earlier age...any other references for this? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 06:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Which "BBC documentary"? Nick Cooper 23:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Translation
The correct translation of "Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft das Ahnenerbe e.V." is "Research and Teaching Community The Ancestral Heritage (registered association)" not "of". The german translation of "Research and Teaching Community of Ancestral Heritage" would be "Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft des Ahnenerbes" or "Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft vom Ahnenerbe". "Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft das Ahnenerbe e.V." sounds a little bit unusual even in german but it's no genitiv. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.55.72 (talk) 22:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

The German Wikipedia entry says its"Forschungsgemeinschaft Deutsches Ahnenerbe e.V." so neither "des" nor "das" I will change the entry to that. Tash 4/4/200712.44.31.196 16:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Please see here. This source is more reliable than the German Wikipedia. I have changed the article once more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.30.78 (talk) 16:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

 * My German, the little I had, has mostly wasted away. But. In the current May 24, 2024 "Formation" section there's this:" "Deutsches Ahnenerbe Studiengesellschaft für Geistesurgeschichte" (Society for the Study of the History of Primeval Ideas)". I know without doubt that this is incorrect. The terms are mostly unfamiliar to me, so whether the English is a fair translation overall, I hesitate to say. What I DO KNOW FOR SURE is that "Deutsches" translates to "German" and no where do I see that in the supposed translation! I'm much less sure, but I also doubt "Primeval" is the best translation of ...urgeschichte - I suggest Prehistoric as a better term. (I'd translate it as German Society for the Study of the Inheritance of Prehistorical Concepts, but as I mentioned, my German isn't good enough for me to have sufficient confidence in this to do more than suggest it. (as opposed to the (missing!) German (or Germanic?) term.))98.21.68.176 (talk) 12:06, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You should not mix "Deutsches Ahnenerbe" (German Ancestors' Heritage), which was its short name, into the stuff behind it, which elucidates what is was supposed to be and which seems to have changed over time. Better: German Ancestors' Heritage Society for the Study of the Prehistory of Ideas. The translation Society for the Study of the History of Primeval Ideas just omits the "Deutsches Ahnenerbe" part. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Master Plan East
While important information to preserve on WP, is it clearly tied to the Ahnenerbe? Perhaps it should just have its own page? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 22:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Religious activity within the Ahnenerbe
This link focuses on the religious and political activity within the SS-Ahnenerbe. Especially the religious issues are not mentioned at all in the existing article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.45.168 (talk) 16:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

False introduction
The actual introduction is partly wrong
 * no correct translation;
 * the society was not found as "Research and Teaching Community the Ancestral Heritage" but as "Study Society for Intellectual Primordial History".

Here is a suggestion for a better introduction:

Founded by Heinrich Himmler, Hermann Wirth, and Walter Darré on July 1 1935 as Studiengesellschaft für Geistesurgeschichte ‚Deutsches Ahnenerbe´ e.V. (Study Society for Intellectual Primordial History [registered association]), 1937 renamed in Forschungs- und Lehrgemeinschaft das Ahnenerbe e.V. ("Research and Teaching Community the Ancestral Heritage [registered association]"), was a Nazi-era government study group which tried to proof the existence of a - since milleniums existing - germanic religion.

See German Historic Museum: LeMO —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.30.78 (talk) 22:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Nazi-robot.jpg
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NPOV: Invasion of Iceland
"When Britain occupied neutral Iceland it not only broke international law..."? Is this really noteworthy, especially a year into the Second World War? After all, it was the Germans what started it. 86.144.197.42 22:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

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List of Ahnenerbe Institutes
I have assembled a list of the Ahnenerbe's Institutes here but I feel it is far too long to insert in the article. Should I instead make a new article entitled List of Ahnenerbe institutes? Salmanazar (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Queste
The link for 'Queste' under 'Sacred Places' leads to a novel, so I suppose the redirect is wrong. The novel has no disambiguation link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.41.148.141 (talk) 20:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

what are Bayeux tapestrys
Bayeux tapestrys were cloths that royal people used to put on their beds and wall to make them look pretty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.86.56.125 (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

New Swabia
I propose that the German expedition to Antarctica should be removed from the list of Ahnenerbe expeditions. The Ahnenerbe was in no way connected with that expedition, whose sole purpose was to find an area suitable for a whaling station. I know that the German's claim to that area of Antarctica is the basis for many conspiracy theories concerning the Ahnenerbe and supposed Nazi UFOs, but, as with most conspiracy theories, there is no evidence at all to support any of these claims. After the expedition, the Germans lost interest in any development of a whaling station there and made no attempts to claim it as a formal territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EbolaRocks08 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Purposed?
What does "purposed to research the archaeological and cultural history of the Aryan race" mean? Created for the "purpose of researching the archaeological and cultural history of the Aryan race', perhaps?Royalcourtier (talk) 07:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Alleged alien skulls
Many "ancient alien" enthusiasts have been claiming for about a year now that the Ahnenerbe discovered skulls of extraterrestrial origin in Adygea. However, there seems to be no hard evidence and serious paleontologists believe it's either a deliberate hoax, or else the skulls became deformed under the pressure of being buried so long. Few mainstream sources have discussed it, either (it's mostly just tabloids reporting neutrally, and conspiracy sites actively promoting the idea of the skulls being alien). I do think it'd be good if we could find a RS, though. The theory has attracted enough believers that it'd be worth addressing the claims here. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 05:23, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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"How the Amazon became popular in the Third Reich"
''In the 1930s, a zoologist used funds from the Nazi regime to travel through the Brazilian Amazon. The expedition inspired a movie, a book and left behind a massive cross with a swastika in the jungle.'' https://www.dw.com/en/how-the-amazon-became-popular-in-the-third-reich/a-52835851 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B00:4776:61FA:88DB:D0B5:F3DC (talk) 09:23, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

"Think tank"
Is "think tank" really the best description of the Ahnenerbe? To my mind, a think tank is a semi-academic organization that makes recommendations about government policy. The Ahnenerbe didn't do that, it was a scholarly organization dedicated to the study and promotion of Nazi pseudo-science, especially pseudo-archaeology and racialism. Do reliable sources describe it as a think tank? what do you think?--Ermenrich (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * To my knowledge, no scholar considers the Ahnenerbe a "think tank" and I've not encountered anyone who ever rendered it as such in the many works I've read on this matter. In a literal sense, the nouns "Ahnen" (forebearers/ancestors) and "Erbe" combine very accurately to ancestral inheritance as the definition, as you well know (being likewise fluent in both English and German). Under the listing for Ahnenerbe on p. 13 of the well-respected Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, edited by Christian Zentner and Friedemann Bedürftig, it says See: Ancestral Inheritance. Just as you've described, historian Gretchen E. Schafft, characterized the Ahnenerbe as "an organization within the SS representing the German Ancestral Heritage Society...dedicated to proving racial hypotheses." (p. 93 in From Racism to Genocide: Anthropology in the Third Reich. Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 2004.) Nobody delineates an organization dedicated to ethnography and the pseudoscience of racial eugenics during the Nazi era as a "think tank". Your explanation and definition  was/is 100 percent correct.--Obenritter (talk) 21:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Hitler's Books are Unrelieble Source for His Views(!)
I expanded the article by using parts of Mein Kampf, and clearly stated these were Hitler's views, similar to what was done previously. However, claims "Hitler's own writing/books aren't reliable and cannot be used here" So, this approach basically says that "What you say or write is not important, what counts is what I think you think". With this approach you are at the mercy of your enemies (for Hitler and many other people, this is the case, I am not protecting Hitler per se, but the approach is very very wrong). Imagine this has happened to you and someone says " Your Name cannot be trusted as a source for his/her own views." Imagine you are at Hitler's place; for some reason some people want to portray you as evil and only publishes the words you said which they can use to slander you, and when you said something else, they say your words on your beliefs cannot be trusted. Stalin killed more people and he can be considered as evil as Hitler; however, since he was left-wing he is protected

Left-wing (or right-wing) bias has no place on Wikipedia (or should not have); we are not the guardians of the narrative but the fighters for the truth (whether we like it or not) Mstf221 (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Rather than assuming political bias and setting out to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, just read Wikipedia's policies on WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY sources. We can't interpret Hitler's views ourselves, and just because he said/wrote something somewhere doesn't mean that that was really even the view he most consistently held. That's why we rely on secondary sources.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Read what WP:OR says before posting a wall of nonsense about left-wing conspiracy in Wikipedia. Interpretations of primary sources is original research and is not allowed in Wikipedia. You should use secondary or tertiary sources for writing about Hitler's own views - you cannot use Hitler's primary source for this purpose (Mein Kampf for example). -- Wiki Linuz  ( talk ) 22:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The same... Since we cannot use any right-wing sources (since they cannot be trusted(!); I saw an editor on Wikipedia apologizing for giving Fox Business as a source and promising as soon as he finds other sources he will change it; and Newsmax is not even considered as a source whereas RollingStone is while both are obviously biased). I have yet to see a left-wing source being rejected for being biased but have seen many right-wing sources rejected for this reason. I guess only right-wing sources can be biased; so we cannot use them. Also it seems we cannot interpret original sources under the Wikipedia rules, so this left us with nothing but full compliance with the left-wing narrative. Mstf221 (talk) 06:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Your claim that RollingStone is [considered as a source] is false. See WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS: it is generally unreliable for politically and societally sensitive issues.
 * Stop using this page as a forum. See WP:NOTFORUM. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:02, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ahnenerbe


text:
Talk:Wormhole

Possible vandalism of lead section by
This passage in the lead section, which appears to be nonsense, was added by in two edits made in 2017 and 2018. After it was removed by and by another user, Asgard0392 re-added it to the article.

The same user made a similar edit to the article on quark stars,

which was subsequently removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.70.109 (talk • contribs) 00:27, November 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * Not my field, so I have not clue on whether this is real, but the named user is an SPA on this issue. There is no mention of Calabi–Yau manifolds or Anti-de Sitter space  elsewhere in the article, so why should this unsourced claim be in the lead? It certainly was not a minor addition as the user claimed. I've asked the editor to discuss the material here and provide reliable sources if this is real.
 * Any physicists out there who can comment on this? Meters (talk) 01:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm a freshman at UCLA, physics major. Calabi-Yau or Anti-de Sitter space is straight up bullshit. Can editors lock this article so Asgard0392 can't do this again? TH3NTLN3MAN (talk) 02:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Pardon me if I'm a bit leery of taking the word of an hours-old account whose every other edit has been reverted as vandalism. Meters (talk) 07:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * How the hell is that relevant? Asgard0392 is writing rubbish. Asgard0392 needs to be stopped or this crap will happen again. I'm not the only one who thinks its crap. TH3NTLN3MAN (talk) 08:41, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is that relevant? Because I don't know if I should believe you. A brand new account that makes three vandalism edits and then shows up here is not someone I'm going to take at his word. If you want your edits to be taken seriously then you are off to a bad start. Claiming to be knowledgeable about this based on being a first year physics major (all of 8 weeks into your first term) doesn't sound to me to be much of a qualification. Giving us broken links in your sig is not a good sign either. Meters (talk) 05:58, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know about this being bullshit. Calabi-Yau manifolds and Anti de-Jitter spaces are both wikipedia articles. just saying.120.138.12.75 (talk) 11:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

While we're at it, can we also remove the mention of a Jacobian and determinant from the lede paragraph? It has been repeatedly inserted by User:StraightFromTheHorsesMouth, for example, here:. I don't think it belong there, and, indeed, these terms are not mentioned in the body of the article.

has once again added the nonsense passage to the introduction of the Wormhole article, while failing to address the concerns raised on the talk page. According to their contributions page, they are doing this persistently. has done the same. 67.171.70.109 (talk) 03:15, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Neither edit has been restored since the IP removed the material in question on Dec 3. I've warned Asgard0392 for unsourced content again, but StraightFromTheHorsesMouth was only active for three weeks more than one year ago (a total of 4 article edits, all this page). Meters (talk) 05:44, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Please update with "Polarized image of equatorial emission in horizonless spacetimes: Traversable wormholes"
I think it would be good if somebody added brief info via/from this study, featured in 2022 in science like so:

"A study describes how one may eventually be able to detect (distinguish) wormholes, suggesting they may have never been observed because they appear very similar to black holes."

From the study:

"Thus, while it could be difficult to distinguish wormhole spacetimes by their direct polarized images, the strongly lensed images and the polarization of the radiation through the wormhole throat provide characteristic signatures which can serve as probes for horizonless objects."

Prototyperspective (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Einstein-Rosen bridge link
I think the link in the introduction should be replaced with text. clicking it leads to the current article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.138.12.75 (talk) 11:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Definition Of An Einstein-Rosen Bridge
In the first paragraph of this article, an Einstein-Rosen bridge is referred to as a synonym of the word "wormhole". However, in the section of the article entitled "development", an Einstein-Rosen bridge is described as a specific type of wormhole which is distinct from traversable wormholes, Lorentzian wormholes and Euclidean wormholes. Given this, would it be appropriate to remove the reference to Einstein-Rosen bridge being a synonym of the word "wormhole"? Nezahaulcoyotl (talk) 08:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The supermassive black holes at the heart of every galaxy quantum tunnel through wormholes into supermassive white holes/BIG Bangs-Bit Bangs - baby universes - Seal #1a of
I added... It's been proposed that the supermassive black holes at the heart of every galaxy are quantum tunneling as wormholes into supermassive white holes/Big Bangs-Bit Bangs - baby universes.<ref]Seal #1a of http://7seals.blogspot.com </ref] 2607:FB91:C6A:DC33:F537:8A0E:387A:CAA5 (talk) 13:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And it was immediately removed. Blogs are not reliable sources. Meters (talk) 19:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Wormhole


text:
Lord Randall

"Lord Randall", or "Lord Randal", is an Anglo-Scottish border ballad consisting of dialogue between a young Lord and his mother. Similar ballads can be found across Europe in many languages, including Danish, German, Magyar, Irish, Swedish, and Wendish. Italian variants are usually titled "L'avvelenato" ("The Poisoned Man") or "Il testamento dell'avvelenato" ("The Poisoned Man's Will"), the earliest known version being a 1629 setting by Camillo il Bianchino, in Verona. Under the title "Croodlin Doo" Robert Chambers published a version in his "Scottish Ballads" (1829) page 324.

Summary
Lord Randall returns home to his mother after visiting his lover. Randall explains that his lover gave him a dinner of eels boiled in broo and that his hunting dogs died after eating the scraps of the meal, leading his mother to realize that he has been poisoned. In some variants, Randall dictates his last will and testament in readiness for his impending death, dividing his possessions among family members and wishing damnation on his lover. Her motive for poisoning him is never discussed.

Traditional recordings
Many traditional versions of the ballad survived long enough to be recorded by folklorists and ethnomusicologists.

Most traditional English versions are called "Henry, My Son". Dorset traveller Caroline Hughes sang a version to Peter Kennedy in 1968 and another to Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger in the early 1960s which can be heard online on the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library website. Fred Jordan of Ludlow, Shropshire also sang "Henry, My Son" to Mike Yates in 1964 and Gwilym Davies in 1994. Louisa Hooper of Somerset, England (sister of the traditional singer Lucy White) was recorded singing a version entitled "Lord Rendal" by the BBC and Douglas Cleverdon in 1942.

James Madison Carpenter recorded many Scottish versions between 1929 and 1935, which can also be heard on the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library website. Russian tenor Vladimir Rosing recorded "Lord Rendal", the Somerset version arranged by Cecil Sharp, on Vocalion A-0167 in the early 1920s. Scottish singer Betsy Miller sang her traditional version with her famous son Ewan MacColl to Alan Lomax in 1953 and on the 1960 album A Garland Of Scots Folksong. Scottish traveller Jeannie Robertson had her version entitled "Lord Donald" recorded by Peter Kennedy in 1953 and again by the BBC in 1963, and her nephew Stanley Robertson was later recorded singing the same version, the audio of which is available on the Tobar an Dualchais website.

The Irish traditional singer Elizabeth Cronin was recorded several times singing a version called Lord Rendal. The Irish sean nós singer Joe Heaney sang an Irish language version titled Amhrán na hEascainne (Song of the Eel).

Several Appalachian musicians recorded the ballad; Jean Ritchie sang the Ritchie family version on the album Jean Ritchie: Ballads from her Appalachian Family Tradition, whilst Frank Proffitt was recorded singing another traditional version in 1961. The ballad was also collected extensively throughout the rest of America.

Cultural uses
Dorothy L. Sayers' novel Strong Poison uses part of the ballad for a title, and has it as epigraph. In 1962, Bob Dylan modeled his song "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall" on "Lord Randall", introducing each verse with variants of the introductory lines to each verse of "Lord Randall". Dylan's ballad is often interpreted as a reaction to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Dylan himself disclaimed this as an oversimplification, and in reality, Dylan first publicly performed the song a month before the crisis.

title: Lord Randall


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soup with risotto

This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of the page entitled Soup with risotto.

This page is kept as an historic record.

'''The result of the debate was to delete the article, as it had been transwikied to the Wikibooks cookbook. See wikibooks:Cookbook:Soup with Supplì.'''

 * Soup with risotto is just a recipe, and should be moved to wikibooks. Oh, wait, I've already moved it, so all that's left is to delete. Gentgeen 08:25, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, recipes are encyclopedic, and this one contains cultural information as well. - SimonP 11:44, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - this recipe is not canonical or notable. Cultural information is minimal. -- Cyrius|&#9998 14:43, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * Recipes are not encyclopedic, which is why they keep getting moved to the Wikicookbook. Delete. Snowspinner 15:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Wikicookbook and delete. Rossami 21:55, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep but make encyclopedic. A recipe is fine to be included as part of an article, but should not be the article itself.  If anyone knows enough to expand the cultural stuff, it'd be worth keeping.  If there's nothing to write, move it to the cookbook and delete here.  -Etaoin 20:55, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue or the deletion should be placed on other relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.