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Peg Entwistle

Millicent Lilian 'Peg' Entwistle (5 February 1908 – 16 September 1932) was a British stage and screen actress. She began her stage career in 1925, appearing in several Broadway productions. She appeared in only one film, Thirteen Women, which was released posthumously. Entwistle gained notoriety after she jumped to her death from atop the 'H' on the Hollywoodland sign in September 1932, at the age of 24.

Early life
Born Millicent Lilian Entwistle in Port Talbot, Glamorgan, Wales, to English parents Emily Entwistle (née Stevenson) and Robert Symes Entwistle, an actor, she spent her early life in West Kensington, London.

It is often reported that her mother died when she was very young, but there is no documented evidence supporting this. There is, however, a Last Will and Testament dated 15 December 1922, in the Entwistle family archives, in which Robert Entwistle specifically stated the following:

"Millicent Lilian Entwistle is the daughter of my first wife whom I divorced and the custody of my said daughter was awarded to me. I do not desire my said daughter to be at any time in the custody or control of her said mother."

Peg Entwistle reportedly migrated from Britain to America, sailing from Liverpool aboard the S.S. Philadelphia in 1916, and settled in New York City. However, documents and photographs made available by the Entwistle family for a biography state that Entwistle and her father were in Cincinnati, Ohio, and New York City in early spring 1913. This information is also corroborated by the Internet Broadway Database, and The New York Times, where Robert S. Entwistle is listed in the cast of several plays in 1913.

In December 1922, Robert Entwistle died, the victim of a hit-and-run motorist on Park Avenue and 72nd Street in New York City. Peg and her two younger half-brothers were taken in by their uncle, who had come with them to New York and was the manager of Broadway actor Walter Hampden.

Broadway

By 1925, Entwistle was living in Boston as a student of Henry Jewett's Repertory (now called the Huntington Theatre) and was one of the Henry Jewett Players, who were gaining national attention. Walter Hampden gave Entwistle an uncredited walk-on part in his Broadway production of Hamlet, which starred Ethel Barrymore. She carried the King's train and brought in the poison-cup. At age 17, Entwistle played the role of Hedvig in a 1925 production of Henrik Ibsen's The Wild Duck. After seeing the play, Bette Davis told her mother, "I want to be exactly like Peg Entwistle." Some years later, Broadway actress and director Blanche Yurka sent a note to Davis asking if she would like to play Hedvig, and Davis sent word back that ever since she had seen Entwistle in The Wild Duck, she had known she would someday play Hedvig. Through the years, Davis said Entwistle was her inspiration to take up acting.

By 1926, Entwistle had been recruited by the New York Theatre Guild, and her first credited Broadway performance was in June of that year as Martha in The Man from Toronto, which opened at the Selywn Theatre and ran for 28 performances. Entwistle performed in ten Broadway plays as a member of the Theatre Guild between 1926 and 1932, working with noted actors such as George M. Cohan, William Gillette, Robert Cummings, Dorothy Gish, Hugh Sinclair, Henry Travers and Laurette Taylor. Her longest-running play was the 1927 hit Tommy, in which she starred with Sidney Toler, which ran for 232 performances and became the play for which she was most remembered.

The play The Uninvited Guest, closed after only seven performances in September 1927; however, The New York Times critic J. Brooks Atkinson wrote, "Peg Entwistle gave a performance considerably better than the play warranted."

She went on tour with the Theatre Guild between Broadway productions. Changing characters every week, Entwistle garnered some publicity, such as an article in the Sunday edition of The New York Times in 1927 and another in the Oakland Tribune two years later.

Aside from a part in the suspense drama Sherlock Holmes and the Strange Case of Miss Faulkner and her desire to play more challenging roles, Entwistle was often cast as a comedian, most often the attractive, good-hearted ingénue. In 1929, she told a reporter:

"I would rather play roles that carry conviction. Maybe it is because they are the easiest and yet the hardest things for me to do. To play any kind of an emotional scene I must work up to a certain pitch. If I reach this in my first word, the rest of the words and lines take care of themselves. But if I fail, I have to build up the balance of the speeches, and in doing this the whole characterisation falls flat. I feel that I am cheating myself. I don't know whether other actresses get this same reaction or not, but it does worry me."

In early 1932, Entwistle made her last Broadway appearance, in J. M. Barrie's Alice Sit-by-the-Fire, which also starred Laurette Taylor, whose alcoholism led her to two missed evening performances and refunds to ticket-holders. The show was cancelled, and in the aftermath, Entwistle and the other players were given only a week's salary, rather than a percentage of the box office gross, which had been agreed upon before the show opened.

Hollywood
By May 1932, at the depth of the Great Depression, Entwistle was in Los Angeles with a role in the Romney Brent play The Mad Hopes, starring Billie Burke, which ran from 23 May to 4 June at the Belasco Theatre in downtown Los Angeles. Florence "Flo" Lawrence, theatre critic for the Los Angeles Examiner, gave the production a very favorable review:

"Belasco and Curran have staged the new play most effectively and have endowed this Romney Brent opus with every distinction of cast and direction. (producer) Bela Blau ... has developed the comedy to its highest points. Costumes and settings are of delightful quality, and every detail makes the production one entirely fit for its translation to the New York stage. In the cast Peg Entwistle and Humphrey Bogart hold first place in supporting the star (Billie Burke) and both give fine, serious performances. Miss Entwistle as the earnest, young daughter (Geneva Hope) of a vague mother and presents a charming picture of youth..."

After The Mad Hopes closed, Entwistle won her first and only credited film role with Radio Pictures (later RKO). Thirteen Women stars Myrna Loy and Irene Dunne in a pre-Hays code, high-budget thriller produced by David O. Selznick and drawn from the novel by Tiffany Thayer. Entwistle played a small supporting role as Hazel Cousins. It premiered on 14 October 1932, a month after her death, at the Roxy Theatre in New York City, and was released in Los Angeles on 11 November to neither critical nor commercial success. By the time it was re-released in 1935, 14 minutes had been cut from the film's original 73-minute running length. In 2008, Variety magazine cited Thirteen Women as one of the earliest "female ensemble" films.

Personal life
In April 1927, Entwistle married actor Robert Keith at the chapel of the New York City Clerk's office. She was granted a divorce in May 1929. Along with charges of cruelty, she claimed her husband did not tell her he had been married before and was father to a six-year-old boy, Brian Keith, who later became an actor.

Death

On 18 September 1932, a woman was hiking below the Hollywoodland sign, when she found a woman's shoe, purse, and jacket. She opened the purse and found a suicide note, after which she looked down the mountain and saw the body below. The woman reported her findings to the Los Angeles police and laid the items on the steps of the Hollywood police station.

Later, a detective and two radio car officers found the body in a ravine below the sign. Entwistle remained unidentified until her uncle, with whom she had been living in the Beachwood Canyon area, identified her remains. He connected her two-day absence with the description and the initials "P.E.," written on the suicide note, which had been published in the newspapers. He said that on Friday, 16 September, she had told him she was going for a walk to a drugstore and to see some friends. The police surmised that instead she made her way to the nearby southern slope of Mount Lee to the foot of the Hollywoodland sign, climbed a workman's ladder to the top of the "H" and jumped.

The cause of death was listed by the coroner as "multiple fractures of the pelvis."

The suicide note, as published, read:

"I am afraid, I am a coward. I am sorry for everything. If I had done this a long time ago, it would have saved a lot of pain. P.E."

Entwistle's death brought wide and often sensationalized publicity. Her funeral was held at the W.M. Strathers Mortuary, in Hollywood, on 20 September. Her body was cremated and the ashes were later sent to Glendale, Ohio, for burial next to her father in Oak Hill Cemetery, where they were interred on 5 January 1933.

In 2014, roughly 100 people marked the anniversary of Entwistle's death by gathering in the parking lot of Beachwood Market in Hollywood, to watch Thirteen Women on an outdoor screen. Proceeds from a raffle and from food and beverages sold at the screening were donated to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention in Entwistle's name.

In popular culture
Hollywood Girl: The Peg Entwistle Story (2017) is a short film based on the last day of Peg Entwistle's life.

Dory Previn sang about Entwistle in the song "Mary C. Brown and the Hollywood Sign," on her 1972 album of the same name.

Jakko Jakszyk's song "Damn This Town" (from his 1995 album Mustard Gas and Roses) mentions Entwistle and her suicide.

In 2015, French songwriter and musician Benoit Clerc composed and released "Peg est mon nom" ("Peg is my name"), a ballad sung by Camille Saillant. The song imagines Peg Entwistle standing atop "The big white letter H" as she wonders whether she will be remembered after her death.

The song "Lust for Life" by Lana Del Rey references the suicide of Entwistle. The song includes lyrics such as "climb up the H of the Hollywood Sign," and in the music video for the song, Del Rey and The Weeknd are seen dancing atop the "H" of the Hollywood Sign.

Some have speculated that the 1977 Steely Dan recording "Peg" is about Entwistle; however, in 2000, during a question-and-answer session with fans, the band said the song was written about a real person, but not Entwistle. In 2020, Steely Dan cofounder Donald Fagen said, "There's no hidden meaning. We just wanted a dotted half note for that spot, and 'Peg' was short enough to fit with the music."

Ryan Murphy's 2020 miniseries Hollywood revolves around the fictional production of a film, Peg, about Entwistle's acting career and suicide.

The song "Gardenias" by Protest the Hero references the suicide of Entwistle as a symbol for the struggle of "making it" in Hollywood. The lyrics heavily feature alliteration on the letter "H" and contain several references to Entwistle's death, including the height of the Hollywood sign and the discovery of her remains by a hiker. The song appears on the album Palimpsest, which was released on 18 June 2020.

In 2021, a new mural appeared in the star's hometown of Port Talbot.

Portrayals
She was portrayed by actress Laura Liguori in the 2017 short film Hollywood Girl: The Peg Entwistle Story.

title: Peg Entwistle


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Perkins Brailler

The Perkins Brailler is a "braille typewriter" with a key corresponding to each of the six dots of the braille code, a space key, a backspace key, and a line space key. Like a manual typewriter, it has two side knobs to advance paper through the machine and a carriage return lever above the keys. The rollers that hold and advance the paper have grooves designed to avoid crushing the raised dots the brailler creates.

Although braille notation was designed for people who are blind or visually impaired to read, prior to the introduction of the Perkins Brailler, writing braille was a cumbersome process. Braille writers created braille characters with a stylus and slate (as developed by Louis Braille) or by using one of the complex, expensive, and fragile braille writing machines available at the time.

History
The first Braille writer machine was presented by Frank Haven Hall in 1892.

The original Perkins Brailler was produced in 1951 by David Abraham (1896–1978), a woodworking teacher at the Perkins School for the Blind that was dissatisfied with problems of the existing technology. The director of the Perkins School for the Blind, Gabriel Farrell, asked Abraham to create an inexpensive and reliable machine to allow students to more easily write braille. Farrell and Abraham worked with Edward Waterhouse, who was a math teacher at Perkins, to create the design for the Brailler.

In 2008, a lighter and quieter version was developed and launched. It also includes an erase key and an integrated carrying handle. The new model won the Silver Award in the 2009 International Design Excellence Awards.

The paper placement is achieved by rolling the paper onto an internal drum, unrolling it when the user presses a line-feed key, and using a clock-like escapement to move an embossing carriage over the paper. A system of six cams consisting of rods with a square cross-section transfers keystrokes to the wire-like styli contained in the carriage. Tolerances are close, and the buildup of oily dirt with normal use necessitates periodic cleaning and adjustment.

SMART Brailler

A new version of the Perkins Brailler, the SMART Brailler, was invented by David S. Morgan and released in 2011. The SMART Brailler is based on the mechanical action of the classic Perkins Brailler, and, when unpowered, is operable as a standard Brailler. The SMART Brailler includes sensors capturing the mechanical motion of the embosser, and, when powered, adds text-to-speech audio feedback and a digital display for use by both sighted and blind individuals. Software for the SMART Brailler includes multi-lingual speech and Braille support, including English, UK English, Arabic, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Russian, and Turkish.

Embossers
With the advent of computers, many users create braille output using a computer and a braille embosser connected to the computer. Visually impaired users can read the computer screen by using screen reader computer software and/or braille displays. Users of such a system can use a computer keyboard in the standard way for typing or can use a special keyboard driver that allows the six keys sdf-jkl to be used as a braille entry device similar to the Perkins Brailler.

Braille notetakers
Many visually impaired users use electronic portable note-taking devices that allow keyboard entry in braille using the 6-key layout of the Perkins Brailler and output in synthesized speech and/or a one or two-line refreshable braille display consisting of tiny pins made of metal and plastic.

Notetakers include PDA features such as an address book and calculator. Because of the many moving parts and the accessibility of the refreshable braille displays to the environment, notetakers are typically quite expensive. They are easily damaged and must be returned to their country of origin for periodic cleaning.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Perkins Brailler


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Talk:World War II Memorial

Typo
Right now the article says the memorial opened in both 2004 (officially) and 2003 (unofficially). Is this true?

 * That was a typo. It should have said April 2004, not april 2003. →Raul654 03:31, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

Design & location controversy
Should there be some mention of the critics of the design and location of the monument? Many local residents thought the monument clutters the National Mall and spoils the vista between the Washington and Lincoln memorials. Also, others have called the design uninspiring, "banal", and ironically reminiscent of fascist monuments. Polynova 00:46, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Criticism is a perfectly legitimate thing to add. Go ahead and add it. →Raul654 00:52, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * I've now added a "Controversy" subheading under "History."Polynova 01:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reactions to the Memorial
(Please only post in her if you have visited the memorial)

I've visited the memorial, and I don't really like it as much as I do the Vietnam or Korea. It just doesn't really have the same type of power that those two have (and I was born well after Vietnam, but that memorial still has an impact). The gold stars don't have the same impact and sense of loss as the 50,000+ names do on the Vietnam memorial. It also lacks a personal touch, which the other two major war memorials have (the Korean memorial not only has the statues, but also has faces sandblasted into a basalt wall). To tell the truth, I'm just not impressed by it.
 * I suppose I agree. Not that it's aesthetically unpleasing or anything, but it doesn't seem to have aurora of quiet contemplation of the Vietnam or the Korean. Especially when it's packed with tourists. (Is somebody going to complain about the fact that the talk page is not in fact a forum page?) vLaDsINgEr 19:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

May not be a talk page, but, as there are two negative comments, I just want to say I WAS impressed by the memorial. The Korean memorial is quite impressive, with the faces etched in the wall, and the platoon of men working their way through the area, along with the notation of the countries that fought in the war along side of the US. I'm less impressed by Viet Nam. To me, it's just a colection of names, and not that inspiring, IMHO. The inclusion of all 50 states in the WW2 memorial reminds us that the entire nation pulled together for the War Effort. The separate towers for the Atlantic and Pacific theaters reminds is this was World War. Not confied to one or two countries, but the entire world was at war. I've spoken to several WW23 vets that like the open atmosphere, and quite a few note that the pool (with splshing kids, etc.) was the reason they went to war in the first place. I think it's perfectly fitting.Bigrafa (talk) 16:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Number the Stars
I saw the Memorial today. Blech. Ugly. Also, I counted the stars. There are 4048, not 4000 of popular conception. Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * According to, there are 4000 stars. Counting them yourself is original research and prone to error so I reverted your change. --dm (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

All right, sorry then for violating policy. Funny though that even the official website thinks there are 4000. There are twenty-three panels, and on each there are sixteen stars vertical and eleven horizontal. You do the math...that's definitely not 4000. :-) Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * If you feel so inclined, go ahead and contact the people behind www.wwiimemorial.com. If you get them to update the number of stars on their website to 4048, then we can make the change here, as well. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 22:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * A google search shows at least two articles listing it as 4048. -- Dodo bird 22:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

 * You might very well be correct. But there are a great many more sites that say 4000. (   and many others).  It could be that they are rounding to 4000, or the number from the official website stuck and others are incorrectly referencing it, or some other explanation.  I think this is worth a query to the official website. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 22:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I sent them an email; this was their reply. "There are 4,000 stars. The field of 4,000 Gold Stars honors more than 400,000 lives lost during the war. If you require further assistance, please call us at 1-800-639-4992. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 9am until 10pm Eastern time and Saturdays 9am until 8pm Eastern time." So I sent another email asking them to confirm it. Perhaps someone else can call the number. Incidentally, the number of US World War II casualties seems to be closer to 404,800 rather than 400,000 (the number is 407,300 military and 11,200 civilian according to our article. Strange that they appear to be leaving out three stars...) Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The first result from my google search has the following...
 * "Why are there 4,048 stars on the wall? The designer says each star represents about 100 soldiers killed in the war. But the arbitrariness of this assignment of multiplication renders it meaningless. Worse, it vitiates the memorial's most profound purpose.
 * A grim total of 405,973 members of the U.S. Armed Forces died in World War II. You do the math. More than a thousand have gone missing from the Freedom Wall. For so grave a fact in oso momentous a setting, "close enough" isn't good enough. Imagine if a couple of dozen names had been left off the Vietnam Veterans Memorial for the sake of symmetrical design economy.
 * The LA Times article, argueing that the 4048 stars reprensenting 404 800 soldiers, left out the 1000+(10 stars) to keep symmetry in the design. Did you question them on the 4048 stars reported in some articles or was it just a general question on how many stars there are? Given that the actual number of stars is a key issue in the article, I would side with 4048 being the correct number. While the 4000 can be attributed to rounding off and all other news report using that number from the original source. The article also mentioned 23 bronze panels, with 11 by 16 stars on each, which is what anon up there claims -- Dodo bird 05:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I just called the Memorial. I had a ball with it, LOL. "Hello, this is Timothy Merkel; I represent the online encyclopedia Wikipedia." "Um...OK..." "I would like to know how many stars there are on the memorial wall?" "Umm.....exactly??" "Yes, exactly." "Ummmmm......" In essence they were unable to tell me anything beyond the fact that their website says there are 4000. Which we knew already. So, we're in the same boat we were in before. My email has gone unanswered. What do we do now? Call a Congressman?

 * My original query specifically was "Everybody seems to say that there are 4000 gold stars on the memorial wall of the WWII Memorial. I was there today; I counted; there are 4048. Who is correct?"

 * Incidentally, for the record, I am the same as the 70.17.x.x posts. My IP is somewhat dynamic. (Edit from later. Changed to Timotheus4. I registered, woohoo! Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I'd be willing to stop by the memorial, check in with the visitor center, and try to clear this up. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 22:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I figured a way to "count" it from the picture[]. Alternate columns are staggered. The first and last row are both staggered down, meaning that there is an odd number of columns. 16 x 250 = 4000, 16 * 253 = 4048.

---

 * Does the place have a visitor center? And, would they know? Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The place has now sent me three emails insisting the number is 4000. Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I was over at the memorial a couple times during the weekend and counted the 23 panels, each having 11 columns and 16 rows of stars = 176 stars * 23 panels = 4048. I couldn't see any panel which differed from 176 stars.  In talking to different people at the visitors center (located behind the Pacific side) and they don't insist on 4000.  Rather they tell me that while it says 4000 on the website (and official National Park Service brochure), they really mean "about 4000".  And that each star represents "about 100" that died in the war.  The reason for "about" is that we don't know for sure the exact number that died, due to those unidentified, missing, etc.  They also suggested writing to the National Park Service, as they do update the brochures from time to time.
 * As for Verifiability, this still borders on original research. But, the fact here is that anyone can visit the memorial and verify it themselves, or look at the photo linked above (I took a few also, without people standing in front) and count the stars.  If we link the number, 4048, to a footnote giving explanation and link to the photo, then I think we can change the number stated in the article. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 14:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I have updated the article accordingly, with references to the LA times article, and the photo. I'll also upload my photos.  Though, I'm still inclined to write to the National Park Service. Instead of saying "4000 stars" they could either say "about 4000 stars" or "4048 stars". -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 15:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Glad I am of it. Thanks. :) Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you for being persistent and insisting the correct number of stars. If you can think of anything else to add, improve, ... to this or other articles, please go ahead.  I'm thinking that the controversy section needs expansion, as the number of stars (as well as the aesthetics of the design) seems to be yet another issue of contention. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 04:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Received this email from WWII Memorial as of 4/1/06.

 * Mr. Merkel

 * Your inquiry regarding the Field of Stars at the WWII Memorial was brought to my attention. Yes, there are more than 4,000 stars on the wall; I forget the exact number but I will trust your math that there are 4,048.

 * Originally, our intent was to have the exact number of stars on the wall that would represent the exact number of Americans who gave their lives for freedom at a ratio of one star for each 100 deaths. We know that there were more than 400,000 who died (not all of whom were in the military services), but our research made us realize that there was no way to quantify an exact and defensible number.  We decided, therefore, that the Field of Stars would be a symbolic rather than exact tribute to those who died.  We wanted at least 4,000 stars, but the exact number was determined by the space available on the wall.

 * Once that decision was made, we also knew that if we focused on the exact number of stars we inevitably would receive countless inquiries as to the significance of the number 4,048, and of course there is none. Thus, our reference to a field of 4,000 stars that symbolically honors the more than 400,000 who died, an approximate ratio of one star for each 100 deaths.

 * I hope this clarifies the discrepancy in numbers for you.

 * Sincerely,

 * Michael G. Conley
 * Director of Public Affairs

 * A fitting conclusion to the matter, I should think. Could this be sourced for the article? Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is it not on the Nat'l Register?
Does anyone know why the memorial is not listed on the National Register of Historic Places? Most every other major memorial under the National Park Service is automatically listed on the day of its establishment/dedication, such as the Korean War Veterans Memorial in 1995. — Eoghanacht  talk 22:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Stars citation
Received email in reply to suggestion that star count be placed on WWII Memorial website:

 * Sir

 * I'm glad the information was what you needed. You can quote me as an official source.  I am the Director of Public Affairs and spokesman for the American Battle Monuments Commission, the agency that built the memorial, and I served as the agency's Associate Executive Director and spokesman of the memorial project through its completion.

 * You might want to consider putting in your article that ABMC transferred the memorial, in accordance with public law, to the National Park Service in November 2004. The memorial is now part of the National Park System.  Although this information is on the memorial web site, many people still believe we operate and maintain the memorial.

 * Best wishes,

 * Mike

I note that the information he suggests is already in the article; but can this count as an official source? Timotheus4 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * By the books of Wikipedia policy, I don't think e-mails can be sources. But, we can certainly reference this discussion on the talk page, should the number be once again questioned at some point.  Thanks for pursuing this.  -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have updated the reference to include a link to this discussion, and added a photo that I took that shows all the stars. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 01:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Editorial stuff removed
I removed the mention under controversy that cited two editorials. The point is that the author of the editorial isn't even mentioned and the thoughts of two (assuming they were two separate editorials and not just one syndicated one) random people don't matter. If I wanted to I could write into my local paper and probably get and editorial printed if I tried hard enough. What matters as far as controversy are the thoughts of the larger group of people and not one single guy or girl that I've never heard of that got an editorial printed? If the wiki is going to have the individual words of one or two people printed then it needs to be a noteworthy person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:70.129.153.181 (talk • contribs)

 * I've added proper citations to the references. These are not isolated comments by random people. They are a small representative sample of comments by a variety of professional critics. See http://www.savethemall.org/press/wwii_critics.html . If this criticism were coming from a single crank, I'd agree that it doesn't belong, but these are common criticisms by professionals writing in major daily newspapers. It belongs here.--dm (talk) 22:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Order of States
While visiting the Memorial again today, I was unable to discern an explanation for the order the states are presented around the Memorial. In some places, geography seems to be the rule (such as North Dakota and Montana being next to each other), while in others there seems to be no such relation (North Dakota and Minnesota are on opposite halves of the Memorial). There is also not a correlation to date of statehood, as North Dakota and South Dakota are very far apart (opposite halves, again) although they were admitted to the Union on the same day in 1889. Does anyone know how the states are ordered? Ari 06:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A very appropriate day to visit... anyway, I asked a ranger there when I last visited and he told me it was alternating left/right order of the 48 states being admitted to the Union. — RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib 13:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"So help us God" controversy?
I read in the paper this morning that some people are upset that "so help us God" was removed from one of FDR's quotes on the memorial: "With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph so help us God." It is probably worth mentioning. The article is here: http://hollandsentinel.com/stories/041307/opinion_20070413057.shtml, I think registration is required, you can use hatereg/123456 for the username/password. --24.11.104.84 14:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Public reception
We need more discussion of the reception the memorial has received, specially regarding favorable reviews. Currently, there are all of two sentences that mention people liking the memorial, while critics of the memorial have been given a very lengthy (though mostly unreferenced) section of their own. Assuming that there are, in fact, many people who like how it looks, we need to add some of their comments to appropriately balance things out.

The article mentions that "many veterans came" but says nothing about how they responded to it. Do veterans like it? That information needs to be in here. Funnyhat 22:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I know this is OR, but I was there over the weekend of March 28, 2008, and the WW2 vets I talked to liked it a lot. The main comment was it was too long coming, why were Korea and Viet Nam honored before WW2? WW2 affected the entire nation (Rosie the Riveter wasn't such a big deal in Korea or Viet Nam for several reasons). Meaning WW2 changed our society. Further, they were not a generation of self-promoters, they saw a job and did it. No thanks or congratulations were needed. Lastly, every WW2 vet I spoke with said they just wished "(insert buddy's name here)" that had survived the War, but didn't live to see the Memorial, could have seen it. Far too long in coming, this one was.Bigrafa (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What IS it?
Consider the article on the Washington Monument. The very first line: "The Washington Monument is a large, tall, sand-colored obelisk near the west end of the National Mall in Washington, D.C."

Why doesn't this page have something similar? I was using wikipedia to find the name of the obelisk - finding this page I skimmed the first 6 paragraphs and still had no idea if I had found what I was looking for, because I couldn't tell from either the pictures nor the article which physical object was being talked about! --Juckto (talk) 11:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree the opening was unclear and have rewritten it. I hope I have addressed your concerns. Part of the problem is that it is not just one object, but a conglomeration of elements: the pillars, plaza, fountain, wall of stars, and arches. Your question, "What IS it?", is not easy to answer and still confounds people who've visited it.

 * A fact still missing from the article is the overall size of the memorial. We need an exact figure in acres or sq feet. I couldn't find anything at the NPS website. --D. Monack | talk 13:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

 * The memorial is 7.4 acres, a stat now added to the article. —D. Monack talk 22:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Costs?
The article states that a "total of $197 million was raised." Assuming that US-$ are meant, where did the money end up? --Tim Landscheidt (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Groundbreaking date
A minor contribution, I know, but I would like to know if anyone knows the day groundbreaking started. Right now it says "September 2001" but I was wondering if anyone knew the exact date. 9/11's proximity to the date may hinder the finding of these results, but I would like to know, all the same. Thanks! The Pokémon Fan (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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I have just modified 5 external links on National World War II Memorial. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080531165728/http://www.wwiimemorial.com/default.asp?page=design.asp&subpage=memorialdesign to http://www.wwiimemorial.com/default.asp?page=design.asp&subpage=memorialdesign
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051226102047/http://www.savethemall.org/updates/20040624.html to http://www.savethemall.org/updates/20040624.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080407152929/http://www.carnegiemellontoday.com/article.asp?Aid=83 to http://www.carnegiemellontoday.com/article.asp?Aid=83
 * Added tag to http://knol.google.com/k/stephen-r-brown/wwii-memorial/3g98ta32adgw9/2?locale=en
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070504055606/http://www.savethemall.org/wwii/index.html to http://www.savethemall.org/wwii/index.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928120323/http://www.savethemall.org/media/senateok.html to http://www.savethemall.org/media/senateok.html

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Proposed move
The official name of this site, per NPS, is World War II Memorial, and this article should be moved there. That page can be moved to World War II Memorial (disambiguation). It does not appear there are other sites that use that exact name. Reywas92Talk 00:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As there have been no objections, I have moved the page. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:28, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Design
The monument is pillars in a semi-circle? Looking at photos, it sure looks like either two semi-circles, or one oval. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.20.170 (talk) 04:49, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

absence of northern mariana islands
I noticed that the article does not mention something I was curious about: why the Northern Mariana Islands is excluded from the pillars. Other than the Minor Outlying Islands, this is the only U.S. Territory not represented. I added a brief note to the article to hopefully help. If anyone knows anything more about why the pillars have not later been updated, do add to the article. Caleb Stanford (talk) 04:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks; good idea. I've moved the explanation from the body of the article into an endnote. PRRfan (talk) 02:52, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:World War II Memorial


text:
EGR

EGR may refer to:

Transportation

 * Eagle Air (Guinea) (ICAO code), a Guinean airline
 * Eagle Air (Sierra Leone) (ICAO code), a defunct Sierra Leonean airline
 * East Grinstead railway station (station code), England

Other uses

 * Early growth response proteins
 * Earnhardt Ganassi Racing, a NASCAR team
 * East Grand Rapids, Michigan
 * EGaming Review, a British online gambling publishing brand
 * Exhaust gas recirculation, in internal combustion engines

title: EGR


text:
Talk:Red Alert

New page
This is my first attempt at a disambiguation page. I hope I did it right... Kevyn 22:03, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * It looks great. Acegikmo1 22:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reordered links
Just reordered the links, though I'm sure if someone really wants Star Trek to be top of the list they'll change it back. I think the current order makes more sense, even if it's not in order of popularity... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.32.79 (talk • contribs).

 * Well, I don't see any obvious "sort key" that we should choose here, so any ordering is about the same to me as any other ordering. I suppose you could use the Google test, but in that case, Star Trek might well win. ;-)
 * Atlant 16:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Deleted paragraph re origin of term
In an edit dated 12 May 2010, User:Boleyn3 deleted information from the beginning of the article, citing MOS:DAB.

The deleted information was:

 * A red alert is the highest level of threat in many official warning systems, and originated with systems to indicate emergencies on board military ships. It refers to the use of flashing red lights to indicate danger. One reason for the use of the colour red is that the human eye can more easily adapt to darkness from red light than from any other colour, so there is an advantage to using red in the event that all lights are extinguished as a result of the emergency.

Plus a corresponding citation:

 * http://www.astronomycast.com/astronomy/observing-astronomy/ep-85-detectors/

Which refers to the following segment from the cited podcast transcript:

 * Pamela: This is the same reason that brake lights on the backs of cars are red. It's the same reason that under war conditions ships go to red alert and everything goes to red, and you can dark adapt so if something bad happens and all the lights go out, you can still see.

 * Fraser: I didn't know that. That's where red alert comes from.

 * Pamela: Right, that's where red alert comes from. It's a way of working to protect your night vision; protect your low light vision. Once you get that low light vision all set up and you're ready to go, the human eye has an amazing dynamic range.

Now, I believe that this information is unquestionably suitable for Wikipedia, and that any reader looking up "red alert" deserves be able to find information about the origin and history of the term. What is debatable is where that information should go, and as I see it there are three options:

 * Reinstate the information in the present article, overruling MOS:DAB in this case.
 * Change red alert (with lower-case a) so that it no longer redirects to Red Alert (with upper-case A) and place information about the history of red alerts in general in the former article. Mark that article as a stub and link to it from the present article.
 * Place the information in some other existing article, and link to it from the present article.

Personally, I advocate the second solution above. The first solution was until recently the status quo, and the third solution could easily lead to the information being difficult to find, or deleted without anyone noticing. 125.168.127.32 (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 15 May 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Possible retargeting of Red alert can be done boldly or with discussion at Talk:Red alert. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Red Alert → Red alert – WP:NCCAPS. Not a proper noun. oknazevad (talk) 17:49, 15 May 2019 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 18:07, 15 May 2019 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 18:07, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * Every single link on this disambiguation page is to a proper noun. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK

 * Oppose. As Ahecht points out, all of the entries on this disambig page are to proper nouns with "Alert" capitalized. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Good faith request, but per WP:DABNAME we tend to name disambiguation pages based on the "spelling that reflects the majority of items on the page". -- Netoholic @ 23:13, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per above and common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose and redirect Red alert to Alert state instead as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 20:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose redirect Red alert to Alert state instead as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, and close. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:37, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I think that's an elegant solution, so long as the alert state article includes a hatnote saying "red alert" redirects there and pointing to this disambiguation page. oknazevad (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose proposal, and oppose redirecting Red Alert to alert state due to lack of evidence that the latter is the primary encyclopedic meaning of the former. There is no problem with the current arrangement.  —  AjaxSmack  00:33, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:Red Alert


text:
Nat Pendleton

Nathaniel Greene Pendleton (August 9, 1895 – October 12, 1967) was an American Olympic wrestler, film actor, and stage performer. His younger brother, Edmund J. Pendleton (1899–1987), was a well-known music composer and choir master and organist for the American Church in Paris.

Early life
Nat Pendleton was born as Nathaniel Greene Pendleton in 1895 in Davenport, Iowa to Adelaide Elizabeth (née Johnson) Pendleton (1873–1960) and Nathaniel Greene Pendleton (1861–1914), an attorney, who was reportedly a descendant of American Revolutionary general Nathanael Greene. By March 1899, the Pendletons had moved to Cincinnati, and then later to New York. Nat went to Brooklyn's Poly Prep High School. Nat studied at Columbia University, graduating in 1916. Pendleton spoke four languages, received an economics degree, and, in 2006, was inducted into the Columbia wrestling hall of fame.

Wrestling career
Pendleton began his wrestling career at Columbia University, and served as captain of the school's team in that sport. He was twice Eastern Intercollegiate Wrestling Association (EIWA) champion in 1914 and 1915. Chosen to compete on the United States wrestling team at the 1920 Summer Olympics in Antwerp, Belgium, Pendleton lost only one match during the competition and was awarded a silver medal. Some controversy continues to surround that outcome. Both Pendleton's Olympic coach, George Pinneo, and his teammate, Fred Meyer, insisted that he won his final match and should have been awarded the gold medal. Pinneo later recalled that loss as the "most unpopular of many unsatisfactory decisions," and Meyer stated, "Pendleton was the winner of that contest, no ifs or buts." Returning to the US he became a professional wrestler and teamed up with promoter Jack Curley. Curley was aggressively promoting Pendleton and issued a series of haughty challenges, among them boasting that Pendleton could beat Ed "Strangler" Lewis and any other wrestler on the same night. John Pesek was enlisted to face Pendleton, and in a legitimate contest held on January 25, 1923, Pesek defeated and injured Pendleton.

Stage career

 * Naughty Cinderella (Nov 09, 1925 - Feb 20, 1926) as "K. O." Bill Smith
 * The Grey Fox (Oct 22, 1928 - Jan 05, 1929) as Don Michelotto
 * My Girl Friday (Feb 12, 1929 - Sep 1929) as Marcel the Great

Film career
Pendleton began appearing in Hollywood films in uncredited parts and minor roles by the mid-1920s. Pendleton was cast in at least 94 short films and features, most often being typecast in supporting roles, usually as "befuddled good guys" or as slow-witted thugs, gangsters, and policemen. He appeared in the 1932 comedy Horse Feathers starring the Marx Brothers, performing in that film as one of two college football players who kidnap Harpo and Chico. In the 1936 production The Great Ziegfeld, he portrays the circus strongman Eugen Sandow, a role that brought him the best reviews of his career.

Pendleton appeared again as a circus strongman in the Marx Brothers' 1939 feature At the Circus. He can be seen as well in recurring roles in two MGM film series from the 1930s and 1940s. He played Joe Wayman, the ambulance driver, in MGM's Dr. Kildare series and in its spin-off series Dr. Gillespie. He also portrayed New York police lieutenant John Guild in The Thin Man series. His final screen appearances were in the 1947 releases Scared to Death with Bela Lugosi and Buck Privates Come Home starring Abbott and Costello.

Although Pendleton's professional career outside the wrestling ring was predominantly devoted to film work, he also performed in some stage productions, including in the Broadway plays Naughty Cinderella in 1925 and The Gray Fox in 1928.

Personal life
Pioneer actor and director of the early American silent film era, Arthur V. Johnson, was his uncle. His siblings include: Steve (1908–1984), an American film and television actor, and Edmund (1899–1987), a well-known music composer and choir master and organist for the American Church in Paris.

On the 1920 census, he was working as a sports manager, living in Manhattan, with his Puerto Rican wife, Juanita Alfonzo (age 22), and Ramon Alfonso (age 13), his wife's brother.

Pendleton died in a San Diego, California hospital in 1967 after suffering a heart attack. He was survived by his second wife, Margaret Evelyn "Barbara" Carse.

Legacy
Pendleton is a member of several halls of fame: the Glen Brand Wrestling Hall of Fame in Waterloo, Iowa, the Iowa Wrestling Hall of Fame in Cresco, Iowa, and the Columbia University Athletics Hall of Fame. He is the subject of a biography by Mike Chapman, which was published in 2015.

title: Nat Pendleton


text:
Mark Martin

Mark Anthony Martin (born January 9, 1959) is an American retired stock car racing driver. He has the second most wins all time in what is now the Xfinity Series with 49. He scored 40 Cup Series wins. He finished second in the NASCAR Cup Series standings five times, third in the NASCAR Cup Series standings four times, and has been described by ESPN as "The best driver to never win a championship." Martin also failed to win the Daytona 500 during his career. Martin has five IROC Championships, more than any other driver. Also, during the 2005 season, he took over the all-time record for IROC wins, with 13. Martin is the final driver born in the 1950s to win a NASCAR Cup Series race.

Early career
Martin was born in Batesville, Arkansas. He began his racing career as a young man on the dirt tracks of Arkansas. He moved on to asphalt racing and joined the ASA racing series. During his ASA career, Martin raced against Dick Trickle, Jim Sauter, Joe Shear, and Bobby Allison. He won 1977 ASA National Tour Rookie of the Year. Martin won twenty-two ASA races and four championships, in 1978, 1979, 1980, and 1986.

1981–1982
Martin had a tumultuous beginning in NASCAR, driving for six different teams from 1981 to 1987. He made five starts in 1981 driving for a team owned by Bud Reeder, earning two pole positions at Nashville and Richmond and finishing third in his final race at Martinsville.

Martin raced full-time in 1982 with the Bud Reeder team, competing for Rookie of the Year. The team struggled for consistency, posting just eight top tens compared to 12 DNFs in 30 starts, including a string of five DNFs in six races. Completing just 73.7 percent of the laps and leading only four laps all season led to Martin finishing 14th in the final standings and finishing second to Geoff Bodine for Rookie of the Year. Despite finishing strongly, with two top tens in the final two races, including a fifth-place finish at Riverside, Martin and Reeder parted ways after the season. He remains the only driver to run more than six races for a team owned or co-owned by Reeder. At the end of the season Martin sold off the team, having signed with Jim Stacy to race in 1983.

1983–1986
Martin started 1983 running for Jim Stacy. The two parted ways after just seven races, posting three top 11s while having four races finishing 24th or worse. Following a two race-stint driving for D. K. Ulrich and one for Emanuel Zervakis, he landed a ride with Morgan-McClure Motorsports for six races, becoming the organization's first driver. While with MMM, Martin posted four finishes inside the top 20, including a 10th at Talladega.

Unable to secure a ride for 1984, Martin went back to driving in the American Speed Association. Jimmy Fennig came aboard as crew chief in 1985 and the two would go on to win the ASA championship the next season, which was Martin's fourth series championship. His success in his three-year stint in ASA landed Martin a part-time ride driving for Jerry Gunderman. In five starts, he posted two top 15 finishes and started on the outside pole at Atlanta.

1987
Martin's success from the previous three seasons landed him a full-time ride driving for Bruce Lawmaster in the Busch Series. The season started strong as he posted two wins, three poles, nine top tens, and was fourth in the standings after 15 races. After just one DNF in the first 15 races, Martin had seven DNFs in the final 12 races, including six due to mechanical failure and four blown engines. Despite finishing in the top ten in the other five races, the team's failure to finish towards the end dropped Martin from fourth to eight place in the final standings.

Though the late season collapse ended Martin's chance at winning the championship, the success that he had in 1987 caught the eye of Jack Roush, who chose Martin to drive for him in the Winston Cup Series for 1988. He finished 1987 with three wins, six poles, 13 top tens, and an eight place finish in the standings.

1988–1991
Martin came aboard newly formed Roush Racing, with crew chief Steve Hmiel, for the first of 19 seasons in 1988 driving the No. 6 Ford Thunderbird. Martin showed both signs of struggle and potential in its inaugural NASCAR Winston Cup Series season, recording three top fives and ten top tens along with winning the pole at Dover. He finished a season-high second-place at Bristol early in the season. Consistency proved to be crucial in that ten DNFs prevented Martin from cracking the top ten in points the entire season. He finished his comeback season 15th in the standings. Martin also competed in the Busch Series on a limited basis for Bill Davis Racing from 1988 to 1991.

Martin's 1989 season began a lot like his 1988 season with a DNF in the Daytona 500. After his first 4 races he was 18th in the standings but went on to continue the season with 4 poles and finishing sixth or better in the next 7 starts. He spent much of the season bouncing around from second to fifth in the standings. With three races to go, he won his first Winston Cup race at Rockingham, beating eventual series champion Rusty Wallace by three seconds. It was the first win for Roush as an owner. An engine failure in the season finale at Atlanta relegated him to a third-place finish in the standings. Martin led the series with a 5.3 average starting position, posting six poles and twenty-six top ten starting positions in twenty-nine races. He also posted fourteen top fives, eighteen top tens, and cut down his DNF total from ten to four.

Martin entered the 1990 season as a favorite to winning the Winston Cup championship. He started the season with a 21st-place finish in the Daytona 500, his first finish in the big race in six attempts. His team was met with controversy following his second career win at Richmond. During post-race inspection it was determined that he had raced with an illegal carburetor spacer. Ironically, had the spacer been welded instead of bolted on, it would not have been considered illegal. The consensus among Mark's fellow competitors was that this was not a performance advantage, but also was not strictly within the "letter of the law" with regard to the NASCAR rulebook. As a result, Martin was penalized 46 championship points and crew chief Robin Pemberton was fined $40,000.

Following a DNF the next race, Martin finished no worse than fourteenth over the final twenty-six races. He gained the championship points lead one-third into the season and held onto it for sixteen races before dropping it to Dale Earnhardt with two races to go. Despite having three wins, sixteen top fives, twenty-three top tens, and three poles, Martin lost to Earnhardt by twenty-six points in the final standings. Had the 46-point penalty never occurred, he theoretically would have won the championship over Earnhardt by twenty points.

Martin's 1991 season was disappointing compared to the previous season, as he entered with expectations to win the series championship. Though he ran well, he never achieved the points lead through the course of the season and was winless entering the season finale in Atlanta, a race in which he won. He also came close to winning at Charlotte three races prior, leading 198 of the first 212 laps before engine failure ended his race. Along with his win at Atlanta, Martin finished the season with 14 Top 5s, 17 Top 10s, 5 poles, and a 6th place finish in the standings.

1992–2004
Mark entered the 1992 season's final race, the Hooters 500 in Atlanta, as one of six drivers in contention to winning the championship, but an engine failure on lap 160 ended his championship hopes. He finished the season with wins at Martinsville and Charlotte, along with ten top fives, seventeen top tens, one pole, and a second consecutive sixth place finish in the standings.

Martin began 1993 with a sixth place finish in the 1993 Daytona 500, his first top twenty finish in the big race. In the second half of the season, he became the sixth driver in NASCAR's modern era to win four consecutive races, winning at Watkins Glen, Michigan, Bristol, and Darlington. Along with a win at Phoenix, Martin finished with five wins, twelve top fives, nineteen top tens, and five poles en route to a third-place finish in the standings, 376 points behind Dale Earnhardt, and 296 points behind points runner-up Rusty Wallace. It was his first top five in the standings since his near championship win three years earlier.

Despite having eight DNFs, Martin finished second to Dale Earnhardt in the 1994 standings, 444 points behind. He posted two wins, including winning from the pole at Watkins Glen for the second consecutive year, and the season finale in Atlanta. Martin scored fifteen top fives and twenty top tens during the season, his most since 1990. Other than the season opener in Daytona, Martin was never outside the top five in the standings. Among the highlights of Martin's 1994 season was a spectacular and frightening crash at the spring Talladega race: on Lap 103, Todd Bodine, Greg Sacks and Jeff Gordon got together in the tri-oval, collecting an additional eight cars, including Martin. Martin's car lost its brakes, ran through the infield grass, smashed the inside wall, and plowed through a guardrail, a chain-link fence, and lastly another guardrail protecting the infield road course, coming to rest only feet from a spectator area.

In 1994 Martin raced in the Busch Series. That year he became known for a mistake he made at Bristol. Martin would lead the field to a white and caution flag to win. When coming back by, Martin went down pit road thinking it was over but he did not take the checkered flag. David Green took the win, and in victory circle Green would say "I feel bad for him. A tough way for me to win, but I will take it." Martin finished in 11th; afterwards he stated "I can't believe anybody else would be that stupid," and that the mistake was "the stupidest thing I've ever done".

Martin won four races in 1995, including his third consecutive win from the pole at Watkins Glen and at Talladega, his first restrictor plate win. He also finished with 13 top fives and 22 top tens. Though he had only one DNF, he had five finishes of 28th or worse, which earned him fourth place in the standings. Martin was one of three drivers, the others being Dale Earnhardt and Sterling Marlin, to be ranked in the top five for all 31 races; none of them won the championship. For the Busch Series in 1995, Martin won 3 races, including the controversial Detroit Gasket 200 where Dale Jarrett won before being disqualified, handing victory to Martin.

In 1996, Martin was winless for the first time in eight seasons. Other than his lack of wins, his season was very similar to 1995 with 14 top fives, 23 top tens, and four poles. He finished a season-high second four times, including at Michigan when he was passed by winner Dale Jarrett with eight laps to go. He finished the season fifth in the standings, and had 15 consecutive top 10 finishes to close out the season.

In 1997 Martin would rebound scoring four wins at Sonoma, Talladega, Michigan, and Dover and finished third in the final standings, 29 points behind champion Jeff Gordon and 15 points behind runner up Dale Jarrett.

In 1998 Martin had his best season as he scored 7 wins, 22 top fives, 26 top tens, and 3 poles with an average finish of 8.64. But once again, Martin would rank runner-up in the standings to Jeff Gordon by 364 points.

Although he scored just 2 wins in 1999 Martin scored 26 top tens for the second consecutive season and finished third in points.

in 2000 Mark won just once that season at the spring Martinsville race and finished 8th in points. His first outside the top five since 1992.

His struggles continued into 2001 as he went winless for the first time since 1996 and finished 12th in points.

In 2002 Martin would get a new crew chief in Ben Leslie as Fennig moved to second year driver Kurt Busch. The move would pay off for both sides as Martin would win one race that season at the Coca-Cola 600 and was a championship contender all season and even lead the standings at one point but a late season penalty at Rockingham arguably costed him the championship as he came home second again this time to Tony Stewart.

Martin struggled again in 2003 going winless and finishing 17th in points. Ben Leslie was re-assigned to the #21 Wood Brothers Racing car with two races remaining in 2003. Subsequently, Pat Tryson was brought on as the new crew chief for the 6 team. With Tryson, Martin returned to victory lane in the 2004 spring Dover race and finished 4th in points.

"Salute to You" 2005-2006
Overall with Roush Racing, Martin won 35 career NASCAR Cup Series races and finished second in the Cup Series point standings four times (1990, 1994, 1998, and 2002). While racing for Roush in 1990, Martin came his closest to winning a championship. A 46-point penalty at Richmond, for using an illegal (but non-performance enhancing) carburetor spacer, caused him to lose to Dale Earnhardt by 26 points in the final standings. During this time, Martin also won five IROC titles (1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2005) and 13 races, both records for that series.

Martin announced he would cut back from 'full-time' Cup Series racing after the 2005 season, dubbing the season the "Salute to You" tour as a thank you to his fans. Martin won the Nextel Challenge in a 'Retro 93' paint scheme, picked up his final win with Roush at Kansas and again made the Chase for the Cup with a ninth-place in the standings at the end of the year. In a tribute to Martin's career at Roush, the team ran four throwback retro schemes in 2005, that celebrated paint schemes from 1981, 1988–89, 1990–91, and 1993.

In June 2005, it was announced that Jamie McMurray would replace Martin in the No. 6 car in 2006. However, after the departure of Kurt Busch in 2005, Roush was left without a driver for the No. 6 car in 2006. Martin later agreed to come back and drive for the 2006 season. Ultimately, it was announced that McMurray would be released from his contract at Chip Ganassi Racing one year early and would take over for Busch, who was dismissed from the Roush organization prior to the end of the 2005 season. David Ragan was announced as Martin's replacement in the No. 6 for 2007.

In 2006, Martin competed in 14 of 25 races in the Truck Series. He won 6 times, including the opener at Daytona, and recorded 12 top-ten finishes.

2007
On October 6, 2006, it was announced that Martin would split time with current Busch Series driver Regan Smith in the Ginn Racing No. 01 Chevrolet in 2007. Roush Racing announced that due to team limits imposed by NASCAR, they could not field a team for Martin for all 20 races he wanted to race in 2007, forcing him to move on, at least in the Nextel Cup Series. However, Martin drove two races for Roush Fenway Racing in the Busch Series, and also drove in three races for Hendrick Motorsports, sharing the No. 5 with Kyle Busch.

Martin finished second in the 2007 Daytona 500, only 0.020 seconds behind Kevin Harvick in one of the most controversial finishes in the races' history. Martin led going into the final lap before Harvick stormed from seventh to win on the outside. There has been much controversy over whether or not the caution flag should have come out as a result of a large multi-car crash behind them, which could have affected the outcome of the race. Normally, the caution flag is shown as soon as one or more cars make contact with the wall. Despite the controversy, Martin was graceful over his defeat, saying, "I didn't get the job done."

2007 was Martin's first season to start with three consecutive Top 5 finishes. Martin is the only part-time driver in NASCAR history to not win the opening race but still be leading the points standings. It was also the first time he has had three consecutive Top 5 finishes since 2002. Martin is also the oldest driver in the modern era to lead the Nextel Cup points for more than one week. Martin led the Nextel Cup points from the second race of the season, the Auto Club 500, through the fourth race of the season, the Kobalt Tools 500. Martin did not compete in the Food City 500, becoming the first driver since Cale Yarborough to sit out a race as the points leader.

2007
On July 25, 2007, Dale Earnhardt, Inc. announced it had acquired Ginn Racing, and Martin joined Dale Earnhardt Jr., Martin Truex Jr., and Paul Menard as a driver for DEI starting at the 2007 Allstate 400 at the Brickyard. He shared the No. 01 car with Aric Almirola for the rest of the season.

2008
On September 8, 2007, it was announced that Martin would share the No. 8 car with Aric Almirola in the 2008 Sprint Cup Series.

Martin made his 700th career start at the 2008 Auto Club 500. On March 1, 2008, Martin won the 2008 Sam's Town 300 driving the No. 5 Delphi Chevrolet for JR Motorsports. It was Martin's 48th career Nationwide Series victory and JR Motorsports' 1st win. Martin finished out 2008 with 11 top-10s in 21 starts.

During the weekend of the 2008 Toyota/Save Mart 350, ESPN reported that Martin was leaving Dale Earnhardt, Inc. following the 2008 season. It was announced that Aric Almirola. who had shared the No. 8 car with Martin, would drive the car full-time in 2009.

2009: Runner-up Points Finish
On July 4, 2008, Hendrick Motorsports owner Rick Hendrick and Martin announced that he would replace Casey Mears in the No. 5 car for the 2009 season, running a full-time schedule for the first time since 2006. Martin signed a two-year contract with Hendrick, with a full-time schedule for 2009 and 2010. Martin grabbed his first pole since 2001 at the Kobalt Tools 500 at Atlanta, and followed up with back-to-back poles in the following week at Bristol.

On April 18, 2009, Martin became the fourth driver to win a Cup race in NASCAR after turning 50, winning the 2009 Subway Fresh Fit 500 at Phoenix from the pole position. The other three were Bobby Allison, Morgan Shepherd (twice), and Harry Gant (8 times, last in 1992). His win snapped a 97-race winless streak going back to 2005. After the victory, he did a Polish Victory Lap as a tribute to his late friend Alan Kulwicki, at the place where Kulwicki did his first Polish Victory Lap. At Darlington, it was announced after the Richmond race that Martin would drive full-time again in 2010; Martin would go on to win the Southern 500. It was his first multiple-win season since 1999. In the 2009 LifeLock 400, Martin won his third race of the season when Jimmie Johnson and Greg Biffle ran out of fuel in the last two laps while Martin had strategically conserved fuel and stayed back in third waiting for the leaders to run out. Martin added a series-leading fourth win at the LifeLock.com 400 at Chicagoland in July, holding off a charging Jeff Gordon. Because he and teammate Gordon also finished 1–2 at the LifeLock 400 at Michigan in June, LifeLock will pay a $1 million bonus to a family in Colorado. Despite his series-leading four wins, due to some early season troubles, including two engine failures, a blown tire, and getting caught up in multi-car wrecks at Talladega and Daytona, Martin had struggled to get into the top 12, moving up two spots to 11th place with the win at Chicagoland Speedway. Martin also got his fifth pole of the 2009 season at Bristol Motor Speedway for the Sharpie 500.

After being on the Chase bubble for most of the season, Martin qualified for the 2009 Chase, as he was in sixth place in the standings following the Chevy Rock & Roll 400. Because he led the Chase drivers in wins, with four, the Chase reseeding process moved him up five places and made him the points leader.

On September 20, he won his 40th and final career victory in Cup competition by taking the Sylvania 300 at New Hampshire in the first race of the Chase. The win broke Martin's tie with Kyle Busch for the series wins lead and marked the third and final time in his career that he had won at least five times in a season (1993 and 1998). Martin extended his lead to 35 points over Jimmie Johnson and Denny Hamlin, who were tied for second in the standings.

At the end of the 2009 AMP Energy 500 at Talladega, Martin was involved in a frightening crash in the last laps when he turned after contact with Martin Truex Jr. and Juan Pablo Montoya, and flipped over one and a half times. It was the second time Martin had ever been upside down in his racing career. Once righted, Martin managed to drive his car back to pit road. The wreck essentially ended his championship hopes according to experts.

Entering the season finale at Homestead-Miami Speedway, Martin and Johnson were the only drivers still able to win the 2009 Sprint Cup championship. Martin finished 12th in the race, which was not enough to overcome Johnson's lead. Martin again finished second in the standings, for the fifth and final time in his career.

2010
In 2010, Martin started the year off strong and won the pole for the 52nd Daytona 500.

Martin ran well in the Bud Shootout, but was caught up in the "big one" during a green-white-checker finish and finished 21st. Martin started the Daytona 500 well, leading the majority of the first 30 laps, but after being stuck in the middle line of the racing pack, he dropped down as low as 33rd and had to pick his way through the rest of the day, eventually finishing 12th.

Martin ran well at California and Las Vegas, scoring back-to-back 4th-place finishes, and advancing as high as 3rd in the points standings, only 49 points out of the lead. However, he was less successful in his next three races. He got caught up in wrecks at both Atlanta and Bristol, finishing 33rd and 35th, respectively. At Martinsville, Martin was leading the field and running top-5 during most of the day, until a flat tire relegated him to 21st. During this stretch of bad luck, Martin fell from 3rd to 17th in the points standings, 214 points behind the leader.

The next three races of the 2010 season saw Martin rally back. With a 4th-place finish at Phoenix, 6th-place finish at Texas, and a 5th-place finish at Talladega, Martin jumped from 17th in the points standings to 6th, 169 points behind the leader.

Martin's bad luck struck again in the following three races, as he struggled to get a handle on his race cars. A 25th-place finish at Richmond, 16th-place finish at Darlington, and 15th-place finish at Dover caused Martin to fall to 11th in the points standings, 293 points behind the leader.

In the Sprint All-Star race, qualifying was rained out. The field was set in the order the drivers drew. Martin started 15th and finished the first 50-lap segment in 15th. He used a two-tire pit stop to gain position and finished the second 20-lap segment in 3rd. He held his position in the third 20-lap segment and finish third. Martin lost a spot during the mandatory 4-tire pit stop before the start of the final 10-lap shootout for the $1 million. However, as the field took the green, Martin was hit by another car and crashed, finishing 17th.

A week later, Martin returned to Charlotte Motor Speedway for the Coca-Cola 600. Martin qualified 11th and struggled much of the race with handling issues. However, during a caution with 20 laps to go, most of the field pitted, and Martin opted to stay out. He restarted 2nd and finished the race in 4th.

Mark Martin had a season best finish of second at the 2010 TUMS Fast Relief 500. Martin crashed with 275 laps to go, but managed to work his way up 15 spots with bent fenders and no rear end.

2011
In 2011, he began the season with an accident in the Budweiser Shootout. During the following race, he was involved in a multiple-car accident. In the Subway Fresh Fit 500, he managed to finish in the 13th position. One week later, Martin participated in the Nationwide Series Sam's Town 300 at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, where he was able to win his 49th race in the series. He finished the Sprint Cup season 22nd in points. Martin parted ways with Hendrick Motorsports at the end of the 2011 season, with Kasey Kahne taking over the No. 5 Chevrolet.

2012
On November 4, 2011, Michael Waltrip Racing announced that Martin would replace David Reutimann in 2012, signing him to a two-year deal to drive the No. 55. He was signed to drive 25 races in both 2012 and 2013, sharing the car with Michael Waltrip and Brian Vickers. Martin finished the year with 4 top 5s and 10 top 10s. He led the most laps after winning the pole at the 2012 Pure Michigan 400, but was involved in a bizarre accident around lap 64. Martin was about to lap Bobby Labonte and Juan Pablo Montoya when Labonte's car got loose, collecting Martin and Kasey Kahne. Martin's car skidded down pit road and the car was penetrated on the opening in the pit wall right behind the driver's compartment, breaching the car's oil tank, and sending Kahne's pit crew scrambling for cover.

2013
Martin's 2013 season started with a third-place finish in the Daytona 500. He backed up his strong Daytona finish by winning the pole for the Subway Fresh Fit 500 at Phoenix International Raceway, becoming the second-oldest driver to win a pole in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series. He finished 21st at Phoenix, followed by a 14th-place finish at Las Vegas. Martin skipped Bristol, where Brian Vickers drove the car. When Martin returned at Fontana, he finished 37th after spinning on the back straightaway late race, collecting David Gilliland. Martin did not drive the no. 55 at the STP Gas Booster 500 because he drove for Joe Gibbs Racing's no. 11. Martin returned to the no. 55 at the NRA 500. Following two top 15 finishes in his original car in the next two races, Martin qualified 10th at Richmond, but finished 38th after an accident on lap 348. At the Coca-Cola 600, on lap 324, Martin was involved in a crash with Jeff Gordon and Aric Almirola, which brought out the red flag.

In early August, it was announced that Brian Vickers would drive the No. 55 full-time starting in 2014; thus, Martin's future status with MWR was left uncertain.

2013
A few days after the Auto Club 400 Joe Gibbs hired Martin to drive Denny Hamlin's No. 11 FedEx Toyota at Martinsville after Hamlin suffered a compression fracture of a vertebra in his lower back after being involved in a crash with Joey Logano on the last lap of the Fontana race. In his one appearance in the No. 11, Martin was involved in a melee on lap 180, taking damage, and later had a miscue on a pit stop that caused him to be penalized a lap, but he managed to finish 10th.

2013
At the 2013 Pure Michigan 400 at Michigan International Speedway, Martin nearly won before running out of fuel with three laps remaining. Afterward, it was announced that Martin would be given an early release from MWR, and would be joining Stewart-Haas Racing to drive the No. 14 Chevrolet, beginning with the 2013 Irwin Tools Night Race at Bristol Motor Speedway. Martin drove in all but one race for the remainder of the season as a substitute driver for the injured Tony Stewart. (Austin Dillon would drive the No. 14 at Talladega Superspeedway.)

2014
On November 8, 2013, Martin announced that he would not race in 2014, but was not yet ready to use the word "retirement". Martin worked with Stewart-Haas Racing in a consulting role, which included testing.

Tony Stewart underwent multiple surgeries following a broken leg from a sprint car crash, and Martin remained in the No. 14 Chevrolet for all off-season testing activities. If Stewart had not been cleared by NASCAR to start the 2014 season, Martin was expected to race the No. 14 during such time, including the Sprint Unlimited. However, Stewart was able to recover in time to start the season.

Post-racing career
On July 31, 2014, Martin tweeted he had become a driver development coach with Roush Fenway Racing.

On February 6, 2015, Martin tweeted that he was no longer a driver coach at Roush, in response to a fan's question. Martin has now retired from racing himself, but does work with a dirt racing team in the Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series, where his Mark Martin Automotive group co-sponsors driver Jared Landers.

Martin owns a family of automobile dealerships in Arkansas under the umbrella of Mark Martin Automotive, based in Batesville, Arkansas, with dealerships selling Ford, Kia, Chevrolet, GMC, and Buick vehicles. He also owns Mark Martin Powersports in Batesville, Arkansas, selling boats, motorcycles, ATVs, and UTVs, by manufacturers like AlumaCraft, Mercury Outboards, Tohatsu, Excel, Honda, Kawasaki, and Yamaha.

Awards and honors

 * 1989 Richard Petty Driver of the Year
 * 2002, 2005, 2009 NASCAR Illustrated Person of the Year Award recipient
 * 2008 Legends of The Glen inductee
 * 2015 Motorsports Hall of Fame of America inductee
 * 2017 NASCAR Hall of Fame inductee

Personal life
Martin resided in Jamestown, North Carolina, followed by a move to Daytona Beach, Florida. He has five children, (four of whom are from his wife's first marriage). His son Matt raced for a time in lower series, but quit after 2008. Martin's father, stepmother and half-sister died in a plane crash on August 8, 1998, in Nevada near Great Basin National Park. Martin won at Bristol two weeks after the incident and fought back tears as he dedicated the win to his family. Martin currently owns five car dealerships in Arkansas, representing the Hyundai Motor Group (Kia in Batesville), General Motors (Chevrolet in Melbourne and a Chevrolet, Buick, and GMC dealership in Ash Flat), Ford Motor Company (Batesville), and Fiat Automobili S.p.A. (Melbourne).

Martin was regarded as one of the first drivers in the United States to adopt a personal fitness and nutrition regimen, which he credited for allowing him to race at a high level into his 50s. He was well known around the NASCAR paddock for sometimes lifting thousands of pounds every day except race days. During the 1990s, he co-authored a book entitled Strength Training for Performance Driving, outlining workouts useful for adapting to the rigors of auto racing.

Martin and his wife Arlene currently reside in his hometown of Batesville, Arkansas, and he frequently visits the local state park of Petit Jean Mountain in Morrilton.

Martin spends most of his time now on the road touring the country in his RV. He is a fan of rap music, citing rapper Gucci Mane as his favorite. Martin recounts that what had gotten him into rap music was a test at Charlotte Motor Speedway where crew chief Ben Leslie was playing Dr. Dre in the transporter.

Martin campaigned for Donald Trump in the 2016 Republican primaries, appearing at a rally in Concord, North Carolina and continued to endorse him through the general election.

NASCAR
(key) ( Bold – Pole position awarded by qualifying time. Italics – Pole position earned by points standings or practice time. * – Most laps led. )

Camping World Truck Series
$$ Season still in progress $1$ Ineligible for series points

International Race of Champions
(key) ( Bold – Pole position. * – Most laps led. )

Rolex Sports Car Series
(key) Bold – pole position

title: Mark Martin


text: Category:Hong Kong

title: Category:Hong Kong


text:
John Henry Lloyd

John Henry Lloyd (April 25, 1884 – March 19, 1964), nicknamed "Pop" and "El Cuchara", was an American baseball shortstop and manager in the Negro leagues. During his 27-year career, he played for many teams and had a .343 batting average. Lloyd is considered to be the greatest shortstop in Negro league history, and he was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977.

Early life
Lloyd is thought to have been born in Palatka, Florida. He was a descendant of slaves, and his father died when Lloyd was a baby.

Lloyd's maternal grandmother, Maria Jenkins, raised him in Jacksonville. Jenkins had lived in Jacksonville prior to moving to Palatka. The return to Jacksonville may have been prompted by a great fire that had damaged businesses and changed the overall economic situation in Palatka. Before Lloyd completed elementary school, he had to go to work full-time. Early on, he delivered items for a grocery store, and then he became a railroad porter.

Early career (1905–20)
Lloyd began his professional baseball career in 1905, playing catcher for the Acmes of Macon, Georgia. He played second base with the Cuban X-Giants of Philadelphia in 1906.

The following season, Sol White signed him for the X Giants' archrivals, the Philadelphia Giants, and moved him to shortstop, where he would remain through the bulk of his career. Sportswriters Harry Daniels and Jimmy Smith both named Lloyd to their 1909 "All American Team" saying he "is a wonder at fielding and hitting, also a fair base runner." At various points in his baseball career, Lloyd worked non-baseball jobs due to the precarious financial situations of the black leagues.

In 1910, Lloyd accepted Rube Foster's invitation to join the Chicago Leland Giants, where he anchored a team that Foster described as the greatest of all time. He rejoined White on the newly-organized Lincoln Giants in 1911, batting .475 against all competition.

Lloyd took over as player-manager for 1912 and 1913, and in the latter year the Lincolns defeated the Chicago American Giants in a playoff series to become the undisputed champions of black baseball.

In 1914, Lloyd travelled west again to play for the American Giants. He split the 1915 season between the New York-based Lincoln Stars and the American Giants, then spent all of 1916 and 1917 with Foster's team. In 1918, Lloyd served as player-manager of the Brooklyn Royal Giants, leaving the club early to work for the Army Quartermaster Depot in Chicago. 1919 saw him join the Bacharach Giants of Atlantic City, then 1920 found him back with the Royal Giants.

Later career (1921–32)
In 1921, he was hired to organize a new team in Foster's young Negro National League. Lloyd's Columbus Buckeyes were not a notable success, however, on the field or in the box office, finishing seventh in a field of eight, and folded upon season's end. The following year, Lloyd was back in the east managing the Bacharach Giants, who had moved to New York City.

When the Eastern Colored League was formed in 1923, Ed Bolden hired Lloyd to manage the Hilldale Club. Lloyd brought home the first ECL pennant by a wide margin, guiding Hilldale to a 32–17 league record. He did not get along with Bolden, was suspended in early September, and was fired at the end of the season. In 1924, Lloyd returned to the Bacharachs, now based again in Atlantic City. With the brilliant young shortstop Dick Lundy on the roster, the 40-year-old Lloyd moved himself to second base. He hit .444 to win the 1924 ECL batting title, at one point reeling off 11 straight base hits. The Bacharachs, however, were merely average under Lloyd during his two years there, finishing fourth both seasons (with records of 30–29 and 26–27).

The Lincoln Giants, who had finished in last place in 1925, hired Lloyd to manage them for 1926. They improved to fifth (19–22), then played 1927 and most of 1928 as an independent club. It was during the latter season that Lloyd moved himself to first base while enjoying a fine season at the plate, batting .402 against top black clubs. In 1929, the Lincolns compiled the second-best overall record (40–26) in the American Negro League. Lloyd finished up his career managing the Bacharach Giants in 1931–32.

Lloyd played extensively in Cuba, beginning with a 1907 visit to Havana by the Philadelphia Giants. Altogether he spent 12 seasons in the Cuban League from 1908/09 to 1930, batting .329 for his career, and playing on three championship teams (Habana in 1912 and Almendares in 1924/25 and 1925/26). In Cuba he was called "El Cuchara", which translates to "The Shovel" or "The Tablespoon", a reference to his ability to field batted balls.

According to the historian John Holway, Lloyd batted .337 (970 hits in 2881 at bats) in the Negro leagues. According to a study sponsored by the National Baseball Hall of Fame that covers the organized (post-1920) Negro leagues, Lloyd batted .343 with a .450 slugging percentage.

Legacy
Lloyd was a heavy hitter, usually batting cleanup during his prime, but also knew how to play "inside baseball" and was an expert place-hitter and bunter. He is generally considered the greatest shortstop in Negro league history, and Babe Ruth reportedly believed Lloyd to be the greatest baseball player ever. Lloyd was called the "Black Wagner", a reference to Pittsburgh Pirates Hall of Famer Honus Wagner. On Lloyd, Wagner said "It's an honor to be compared to him." Writer Bill James ranked Lloyd as the 27th greatest baseball player of all-time in the 2001 book The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

Lloyd was probably the most sought-after African-American player of his generation. "Wherever the money was, that's where I was," he once said. His career record bears this out, showing him constantly moving from team to team. He was also known for his gentlemanly conduct.

Lloyd was posthumously inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977. He was nominated, along with several athletes and other public figures, for induction into the New Jersey Hall of Fame in 2014. However, basketball player Patrick Ewing was the only sportsperson inducted.

Later life
After his professional playing days, Lloyd lived in Atlantic City, New Jersey. He was a player-coach for the semiprofessional Atlantic City Johnson Stars until 1942. The team was named after politico Nucky Johnson and was later known as the Farley Stars after powerful state senator Frank S. Farley. (Farley had driven the creation of Atlantic City's Pop Lloyd Field to gain support from the city's large black population.) Lloyd could not run well by that time, and he shifted to playing first base, but a former teammate said that he was still able to hit line drives.

Lloyd was a janitor for the Atlantic City School System, including Atlantic City High School. Though he did not have any children, Lloyd became a popular coach in the local youth baseball league. He died in 1964.

title: John Henry Lloyd


text:
Talk:Misunderestimated

The term "misunderestimated" is very important - so important that a bestselling book has been named this way - and I am sure that single-word entries of this importance simply cannot be omitted on Wikipedia. The book is now #60 at amazon.com.

title: Talk:Misunderestimated


text:
Talk:Save Karyn

I
I will not be able to finish this article tonite. I consider everything from "Growing the site" to the "External links", to be a stub I can add to in the near future. With over 5K hits for "save karyn", I consider the subject sufficiently notable/verifiable. I have specifically added redirs, and worded it, so as to minimize "hangers-on" articles. Her site I believe is notable, copycats, not. I first found it long before her book, and before her goal was reached. In the interests of full disclosure, I have her book, and have read (only) part of it--it is a partial reference for this article. I will probably contact her for verification/clarification. Niteowlneils 03:26, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This
This page seems awfully pro-Karyn biased. Also note the use of weasel words ("many people believe...")

This page is little more than an advertisement for a cyber-beggar, most likely written by the beggar herself. Deletion worthy, for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.150.130.29 (talk) 19:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

That woman was a scam artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.164.222 (talk) 23:42, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Save Karyn