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Talk:Methuselah

"was the oldest person who ever lived"
I can't find support for this claim. He is the person with the oldest age listed in the Bible but that is not to say he was the oldest who ever lived. The Bible does not provide an account of every lineage around that time, even, nor does it say in the text (quoted below) that this was the oldest person. Primarily the lineage to reach Noah is listed in this area. Can we get other support for this claim? Otherwise I recommend removing the clause.

jewbacca 23:13, May 22, 2004 (UTC) -- jewbacca???? that is an odd one ---

What you mean is "the oldest person on record". There might have been someone older, but we have no record of him. Places like the Sumerian king list have people living at least tens of thousands of years, but there is no evidence to these lists legibility.68.50.57.15 (talk) 18:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Disagree about the Sumerian kinglist years replacing days. Babylon's king Amizaduga died in Adam's year 2400, but instead the long chronologies debate Hamurabi or Amizaduga dying in Adam's year 3600, revealing both were counting 1200s to year 6000. Venus fits this not Jupiter. Amizaduga observed Venus. Thus his making siginifcance of a 3600-year SAR does not confirm Berosus who thinks preFlood kings ruled sars of 3600 years instead of 3600 days. The list of Berosus totals 119.8 sars or 1198 years which would total 1200 when Arpaxad is born 2 years after the Flood. This is confirmed by The 2947bc Flood 740 years to Peleg's death in 2207bc (tradition Thoth 1 on Feb 26 returning in 747bc) having an Arpaxad of 2945bc Aug 29 (Thoth) as noted by Augustus Octavian for Coptic calendar in 25bc (same as 2947bc to 27bc Aug 30). The 2256 years from 5200-2945bc being year 1 plus 2255 is 2256am. Thus Berosus may say 3600 years per sar but he lays out 1198 years from 4143bc to 2947bc. The Nippur list is 97 sars of 970 years which means Methuselah versus the kings. The Larsa list is 67 sars of 670 years which means the two kings are ommitted to make 8 kings because they expect Alulim to kill Enoch who died 670 before the Flood when Methuselah was 300. But Alulim if from heaven as the list says, is easily alive 300 years later to defy Enoch's disapproval of Kichunna the king of Larsa becoming next ruler of the world. Lastly the 18 sars of 180-year Xisuthros is questionable to the tradition as Noah because texts actually say he raptured to heaven the same 40 days Noah did in his ark. However, Noah lived 350 years after the rapture of his ark. BUT agreed, listing Methuselah is not with intent of claming no one lived longer, just as listing our world from 3 sons doesnt mean Noah didnt have other sons much older and much younger who never got on the ark. The intent of saying of the other 9 that they had other sons is so you dont conclude that in 1656 years a world of only 10 men and 10 wives died.

Lost pre-Vaticanus
The Vaticanus (167+802) shows evidence of evolving from the original 187+782 via a lost 167+782 (=949) and lost 167+788 (=955) by equating Methuselah to Egyptian Menes. The facts exist that many ancient writers equated Adam as Menes, so to equate Methuselah as Menes is not presumption. In Hebrew Noah's death at 950 is in year 355 of 360-day making it year 955. (Notation: 355 of 360-day spans only 350 years.) In Egyptian Septuagint Genesis (280bc based on Ramses 1290bc) this 955 is the 11th dynasty year 2134bc (dyn 1-5 =768 plus dyn 6-8 =187 to year 955 as dyn 11 overpowering the contemporary 9 & 10). It is this 187 years of Egypt (dyn 6 thru 8) from year 768 to year 955 that got confused with the 187 years of Methuselah. In this way the Menes of year 350 (tradition that gods ruled 350 years until Pharaoh was created) is separated from the 955 by 605 years. So now with Methuselah his age 969 then presumed him to be on the ark to survive 14 years past the Flood, beyond the 955 to 969. This created the dispute of 1 Peter 3:20 where Peter deliberately attacks and verifies there was no 9th. (We can dispute this because every indication in chronology of Arpaxad born as 2nd year indicates pregnancy on the ark before leaving it, and the 2 years refers to the calendar new year 602 as the first of that newborn Arpaxad.) So if ancient word anywhere indicates a 9th, (we can presume Methuselah,) but it was prenatal Arpaxad. Methuselah dying upon the Floodyear means his life and death whether Flood 1656am or 2256am remains the same for both, as 969 =187+182+600 = his 187+782. All five of these figures are recorded. But if Methuselah died in the Flood year 2242am he died at 955 =167+188+600 = his 167+788) equating him with Menes as if dying in year 955. Though we see two figures change (187+182 changed to 167+188) the 788 had to exist to die in the Flood at 955. Instead the 969 is retained, so that another third figure is changed, that of 782 becoming 802. Though figures listed are 167+188+600 creating the new 788 to Flood for Methuselah, they then list an altered 802 for Methuselah to retain the original 969, (788+14). To keep 969, removing 20 from 187 to get 167, requires then adding 20 to 782 to get 802. Many historic alterations have reconstructed this way everywhere in history. The globally-known use of 2262am merely restores Methuselah's 167 back to 187 without restoring the 188 back to 182. (Typical of correcting one factor yet not another to get a desired merge result.) This 955 of 2242am as 167+788 = 187+768 which is merely the reversal of Menes (re-)unification 955=768+187 of 2134bc. (Reversals typically found in so much Bible chronology). This indicates that a lost extinct version of 167+788 existed before restoring the 969 by means of 167+802. From the original 187+182, changed to 167+188 to get 2242am, the 2262am restores only the 187 as 187+188. If this was done, it is logical that because the previous manner supported year 955 as Methuselah either dying in Flood, or passing thru the death of the Flood, that the figures would also support the attempt to equate with a year 950 Menes. And it does. Another numeric factor thus also brings in Menes as year 950 being 167+182+600 where only the 188 is restored to the original 182 so that 167+182= the 349 of Noah's year 350 after the Flood. This makes Methuselah as 949 years to year 950 which is taken from a Marduk formula= 936 egyptian of 365-day are 949 of 360-day having a 13-year difference, meaning they equated Menes and Marduk with Nimrod by means of year 950, instead of year 955. What does this mean? It means that as Methuselah was longest before the Flood, that if we eliminate the 8 survivors (Noah 950 and Shem 600), that Nimrod was the longest after the Flood (the Moslem tradition he measured or ruled 500 years. Bad wording; Josephus is tranlsated this way to saying Adam ruled 930 years, Methuselah ruled 969 years. It doesn't mean king other than being king over longevity conquering the centuries.) 98.144.71.174 (talk) 08:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Ibid
What does "ibid" mean? Shouldn't it say Genesis or (Bereishit בראשית)?--Jerryseinfeld 03:36, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * "ibid" means in the same source (referring to a previously cited work). Philip J. Rayment 13:21, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Mesushelach was not the longest living, Adam Harishon lived longer, and, if I am not mistaken, Mesushelach's son, lemech, lived longer.--Shaul avrom 11:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be a crossing of sources. Lamech's 777 is from sources 1656am and 2256am (2242 and 2262) and the source that says 720 for Methuselah does so to be sothic 180 leap days to 1307am. The reason for 1307 is derived from 1306 to year 1307am plus 350 has Noah die in the famed 1656am. Or according to evidence Noah is accredited the 350 he didnt reach, so it could be 1307 years plus 349 to total 1656. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 02:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

live span
I think the part of the article referring to the live span is highly speculative and unfounded. There is no reason to believe that people actually lived longer before the flood of Noah's time. It hasn't even been proved that that flood was worldwide indeed. It most likely wasn't. The long livespans of Methuselah and other people before the Flood are simply of mythic nature just like those of early Mesopotamian kings who were said to have lived for up to 30.000 years. --85.74.156.186 20:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You are missing the point here. If I were to tell you about a fictional TV Show like the Sopranos, I'd still be able to explain the rationale for the ending (like it or not) even though the show is false. Likewise, the explanations for 'life span' may be apologist attempts to make what is increasingly untenable seem possible, but they also give us insight into how the Methuselah longevity myth has been used in popular culture...and in that sense, these insights are important, as long as they are framed in a hypothetical format (i.e. no sanction of veracity that this is indeed true).Ryoung122 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the first sentence needs citation.Actuallyerwrongashell (talk) 09:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

THE TOPIC IS METHUSELAH. He is not known for being Noah's grandpa, nor our forefather, but known for no other figure of longevity higher than that 969. You cannot discuss the man without his longevity being foremost. In fact they name the oldest tree in the world after him. So to make issue, is strictly a desire to make issue. I am not aware of the 30,000-year figure. I am aware of the 1560-year figure which if 1560 months of 12 is 130 years after the flood. And I am aware of Chinese NuWa's 180,000-year figure which as 360-day calendar of 180,000 days is 500 years which Noah is recorded with. Perhaps you can find this 30,000 for me. Pan-Ku is 18,000 years or if days just 50 years (Pan is the Capricorn goat affiliated with Noah and flood). Perhaps I am missing something in not being able to see everything as mythical; after all I am also of the impression that Nicolaus (Nick or Claus) was sainted by the Pope, and did wear bishop red, and perhaps he forgot to starch his mitre that Christmas you photographed him. By the way there are 4 preflood kinglists, the 432,000 day not years is 1200 years to the Flood, the 349,200 day not years is 970 years to the Flood, the 241,200 days not years is 670 years to Flood. The 456,000 days not years is not even decades because it counts from Adam's year 390 as 1266 years and 240 days (two seasons of 120 days) to the Flood. It angers me that every type of math game is played to mock Genesis by trying to turn 900 years into 90 years, and yet the myths are go untouched as 28,800 years (days in 80 years of 360-day having ruled 8 decades of 3600 days). 98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment on Creationists
I have moved the following comment by anon User:70.20.26.83 out of the article onto the talk page:

 * Edit: This has nothing to do with Creationism.  Try Othrodox or Conservative or Literalists or Biblical Theorists

..in response to the claim "Creationists have speculated on reasons for the dramatic decrease in lifespans following the flood of Noah's time."

I have attempted to clarify exactly who is making one of these speculations. It would be nice if a source could be found for the ultraviolet light one. --Stormie 07:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This whole section needs to be removed, or at least pruned to a tiny sliver of its current form. Wikipedia isn't a forum for religious speculation about non-verifiable, unevidenced and fictitious events or phenomenon. Save that for your own message boards.
 * Well, wikipedia should reflect that statements on the different schools of thought on this without any bias. --197.229.149.164 (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Creationism Longevity Theories
Many things shorten life from 90 down to 50. But nothing people come up with shortens life 800 years. They fail to study children who age to 90 in just 16 years. They just say it is a genetic anomaly. Those who speak of water canopy protection be it gamma or ultraviolet whatever. If that were the cause then a grandson born in this new world to a granpa that lives 950 would have been old and died by 90 to 120. Record says he lived 438. This is something that creeps into the world. Doesn't slam into the longevity instantly. In fact, such a factor would then also age Noah to die in 90 years (600+90 =690) rather than live normally 950. The answer is in atomic structure that remains in the body. And i want you to find any error you can in this theory. Food you eat has carbon. Carbon-14 is toxic to longevity. BUT not solely by eating it, it had no effect on Noah. That is because most of what we eat as carbon is not used to build cells, not proteins. Once fully grown in body mass, what you eat is burned off and breathed back out. It is only in building body mass that you will retain it. That means a child will grow up building more carbon-14 than an adult already grown who has come from a nonCarbon-14 world. Weigh the data: Noah lives 600 before Flood, 350 after Flood. His sons live 100 before Flood and so eating for 500 years after Flood they all die losing 350 years their direct father didn't lose. When a cell dies, the new cells use the break-down of the old cell so that new C-14 is not drawn into the body mass. Where is this C-14? it is in the DNA molecule on the thymin rung. It can be purged by deliberate diet. It would effect all organic life. And as a retarded student at UW university told me in 1985, the theory could be proven with the larva of a 24-hour fly. It should live 12 days if it is fed food that has no C-14. I believe in divine punishment. If 600,000 men in Sinai tell Moses that they obeyed the command of God listening to Moses to pick 10 men so that now they obey these ten and say nope we could never conquer Canaan, this is then also true of C-14 announced exactly as i do here, back 30 years ago in 1985 (very soon to be 40 years past 1975), and by the way HIV killing people takes 10 years and so was released in 1975, while i released this C-14 theory then in 1985 during the AIDS panic. People who survive Armageddon if over 20, deserve to get old and die, because they didnt prepare a diet that would give them the longevity their surviving children will gain.98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:28, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Day / 1000 years
In addition, the age of 969 fits within the dictum that man's life would be less than a "day" (i.e 1,000 years) after Adam ate of the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden.

I'm not sure about this statement. Not only does it seem to make little sense (since when does "a day" mean "1000 years" in the Bible or elsewhere, and why?), but it seems like an obvious and specious attempt to substantiate Methuselah's age solely on the basis of the coincidental amount of time between the original sin and the great flood. No research or cited Biblical passages are given to support the notion, and I can't help but thinking that a "day" (i.e 1,000 years) reads more than a little unclear and at least confusing if not wholly ridiculous. Unless all of this is disputed, I'll remove the statement, as it doesn't otherwise add anything factually valuable to the article. --75.3.22.244 13:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Probably quoting 2 Peter 3:8 --Henrygb 23:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Bible or no Bible cultures world-wide have honored reaching 1000 years of their city or government. This indicates that man mourns that no one has ever lived this long. If the list of 432,000 days is correct from Nippur, these kings or angels dwelt here more than 1000 years. However, even when they took over as kings, the Nippur list of 97 sars (970 years) aligns with the 1656 years and Methuselah, so that even their kingship did not reach 1000 years if that truly is the promise from God after all men have learned the lesson. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 02:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Methuselah Picture (Artists' impression)
It would be a nice addition to this article if there's a photo Anonymous  _anonymous_  Have a Nice Day  20:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This article refers to 'the majority of scientists'. This is tantamount to 'they say that'. Who are they? Can one authentic quote be found to replace this straw reference?

Some cleanup
I cleaned up some wording. Now I need to come back and work on the following five passages.

Water Canopy
Other creationists believe that, according to the biblical text, a vapor canopy existed around the earth before the flood, which also would have protected mankind from the sun's aging effects. After the dissipation of the canopy during the flood, lifespans dropped rapidly to what they are today. In the opinion of the majority of scientists, proof of these events and their putative effect on human lifespan is lacking. Therefore they are rejected by mainstream science. A vapor canopy? Is this truly mentioned in the Bible?

Yes Genesis 1:7 says there was water above. Genesis 7:11 says the gates of this water were opened in the Flood. Genesis 1:8 says the air under the water was called heaven, and Genesis 1:20 says the birds were created to fly in this heaven (under the water above). Genesis 2:5 & says there was no rain but instead mist and dew and condensation and streams. The reference to crops does not mean vegetation did not exist, it means there were no humans, and so of course there were no human farm crops from men who till the earth. In fact Cain started this, not Adam. Then to finalize this green house it is proven by referring to God's judgement upon Adam during the breazy part of the day. Only a green house planet can give every day a breazy hour before sunset. The longevity charts prove the Flood dropped longevity, not genetic sin. Noah lived more than Adam (doesnt sound like sin to me). In fact, Moses says any genetic curse lasts up to only 4 generations; the good DNA of four generations (unless you inbreed) purges and rids the bad mutated DNA in those four generations. Many presumptions are made, but i too can find fault with presumptions everyone gives. No one has provided contradiction yet to my claim that C-14 took 100 years to reach the worst levels attaching C-14 into DNA. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 02:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Factors in vapor canopy online. Orbiting rings are not a canopy. They may fall as ice and water, but they do not protect organic life until they slow down and change from "Saturn" rings to a canopy ceiling. This ceiling cannot stay up over rotating poles. It is open which is good because it releases the excess heat that computer models accumulate up to 400F. Water vapor lighter than nitrogen air merely helps it stay up 52 miles; it does not remove the weight on humans. Thus humans cannot exist under such a canopy until many global rains like Noah's occurs before man arrives. The weight is the same above as it is in lakes. A depth of about 40 feet of water has the pressure double of our current atmosphere at sea level. Thus this cannopy would kill humans if thicker than 60 feet. The spin of the earth would bulge this canopy so that if 40 feet over temperate zones, it could be 60 feet at our equator and a mere 10 inches over artic circles. Thus computer models have yet to set up an accurate image to get accurate facts calculated. So then religion jumps into claims of sun being smaller, and earth farther away, and here we then go into sci-fi mythology then.98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

and that equated early death with sin (and thus long life with respect) For "respect", probably substitute a word like purity, or sinlessness.

Richard Morgan's debut novel, Altered Carbon, explored a method of keeping the rich alive, via clones and uploadable memories, for several centuries. The common slang for these people is "Methuselah" or "Meth". This has been argued to be simply a nod to Heinlein's "Howard Family" novels, but this theory is unlikely. Why is it unlikely? This needs to be explained.

In Johnny Depp's commentary on Pirates of the Caribbean he said that during the island beach scene he felt like Methuselah with his arm around Kiera Knightly (a 17 year old actress). Not especially noteworthy as a cultural reference for the name. I propose deletion.

Yoda in the Star Wars saga is like Methuselah, aging to 900 years old, until he dies. Even more tenuous—not even a reference, just a comparison. Lots of things are old enough to be "like Methusalah". I propose deletion. --Chris 21:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A bit late of a reply. See Genesis 1:6-8, it doesnt literally say "vapor canopy" of course but it does say that in those days there was water above the earth as well as below.  Soap Talk/Contributions 03:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Another rewrite needed here
Guinness Record statistics are soon likely to excuse the Methuselah age controversy, and further misunderstands the meaning of the story--some interpret Methuselah's age to be allegorical and, if anything, represented a different time and context). --Chris 23:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

 * OK, I took a stab at it... --Chris 23:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

About that Hebrew translation
Hebrew translation of the name: "Man of the dart" -- is this accurate? --Chris 23:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, its not the appropriate translation.--Shaul avrom 13:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think a better translation would be "man of Selah". Note that Methuselah died in the year of the flood.68.50.57.15 (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Lifespan section
Inclusion of the information on possible transcription errors makes sense, but is the Creationist material in this section really needed?

RJCraig 06:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

"In popular culture"
I've removed the gigantic "in popular culture" section that had grown onto the end of this article. I suggest that if something is worthy of including, we can put it on the disambiguation page linked to from the top of this page. There's no need to clutter this page up with an interminably long list which is likely to contain little or nothing of interest to a reader seeking information on this Methuselah. --RobthTalk 01:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Life span section There is a bristlecone pine somewhere out west that bears the name Methuselah. Presumably becasue it is the oldes living thing known on the planet. I would like more information.

That is a backhanded attempt at disrediting the Bible. Another question would be, was Methuselah a Nephalim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.28.138.225 (talk) 23:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The tone of the article
In my opinion, there should be some indication, that the bible is not an actual historical document and information that originates from it should not be taken seriously.
 * If you do some (more?) research, you will find that it is very accurate historically. rossnixon 10:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's not. This particular section of the Bible is all but useless for historical information. Quote the book for what it is; an oral history which was never intended to be scrutinized as historical fact. -- UC

Can we please adjust this article for the idea that the Bible is not accurate? Seriously guys, there's an entire speculative section talking about how a person can live to nearly 1000 which doesn't even mention the idea that he didn't, possibly because he never existed. Maybe Methuselah is the folk memory of some guy who managed to survive till 100 when the average life expectancy was 40. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.223.213 (talk) 08:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone watch that episode of QI featuring Methuselah?
When asked who is the oldest man in the Bible, Methuselah was the forfeit answer. They claimed that the correct answer was Enoch, as Enoch is never listed in the Bible as having died, only that "the Lord took him".--80.47.95.10 14:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * One could argue that Adam is the oldest man. Sure his body died, but he is still alive in the spirit! rossnixon 00:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What?

Methuselah age, a correction
I have a theory that corrects Methuselah's age of 969 years to a reasonable 108 years. It also brings the Gilgamesh story of the Flood within a time of the Noah Flood. The last great flood in the Persian Gulf area, as determined by scientists, is also in agreement with the corrected time of the Noah Flood. I have a four page article that I have researched and written detailing this theory. It has charts and a map besides text which I couldn't fit into this kind of communications. For anybody who may be interested, email your desire to rjoace@quay.com and I will send you a copy.24.22.18.55 01:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Ralph J. Oace24.22.18.55 01:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

What about [Wikipedia:NOR]? I think your ideas are simply apologist attempts and not credible, but even then you don't cite sources, either.Ryoung122 04:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed some minor translation error: "when he dies it shall be sent" >> "when he dies/died - he (someone) will/had send/sent it" I'm an Israeli so I think I know my hebrew well... ;)

Not years but months
Methuselah was in reality 969 months old when he died, that is less then 80 years. Some ancient misunderstanding have changed the months into years. I got that from nowhere really. But i belive it's true. Barry Kent 20:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry but you are wrong. The ages of death gradually came down to the current 70-80 years. There is no sudden change that could be interpreted as a change from months to years. Also, if it was months being reported, then you have men fathering children at impossibly young ages (like 5 years old). rossnixon 03:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * That's a stupid argument, isn't it? It's not like they had Babelfish back in the day. There's nothing stopping the translator in question from mis-translating two words (months and years) as having the same meaning (years) or mis-translating one word (months) in one context as having a different meaning (years). Historically, translations (and same-language copies or re-tellings) were VERY error-prone (this was before the invention of modern Copyright, y'know?) and if you consider that the text has been translated and copied a lot, you'd expect simple errors to spread over the years.
 * Unless you have a carbon copy of the very first original text, you can't know what meaning was intended (and even then language tends to be ambiguous and change meaning over time). Unless, of course, you argue that the modern interpretation HAS to be right, because your deity of choice guided the translators and scribes, which would make me seriously question your common sense. -- 88.153.29.247 (talk) 16:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

What was meant was 'years.' In either case, the claim is not true scientifically.Ryoung122 04:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

12 or 13 month a year? it was an egyptian chance to count in years instead off MOON cycles. the CALANDER MONTH is NOT a MOON month which was the obvious time, counting from full moon to full moon, which is about 27-29 days.was it the father of tutankamon who STARTED praying to RA, the sun god? so its a 13 fold calculaltion in my simple opinion.85.149.83.125 (talk) 11:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

"I got that from nowhere really."

-- There is a quote from one of the church fathers from 2000 years ago that explains there was a change in the Phoenician Calendar from Months to Years. I'm looking for it. 969/12 = 80.75. The average life expectancy in 1000BC was 52, btw. So 81 is pretty old(Ramses 2 was older). The question is when does this change in the calendar happen? Probably after Moses. 40 years in the desert? 40/12 = 3.3 years in the desert. The cutoff is probably around there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:581:C300:290:78BE:C57:CA19:6374 (talk) 19:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

The great age and the possibility that age was counted once in months not years
900/12 is 75 a man is fertile at 12 years... 187/12 is ≈ 15.5 years. this is so simple? so clear and so true. I can not believe the opposition to the acceptance of this??? I am shocked that inelegant people would condemn this as impossible? What century is this?: Sativarg (talk) 08:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no way that the ages were months. See http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why-did-man-live-longer-before-flood-of-noah-than-after-it.html - you will see that the decline in lifespans follows a 'decay curve'. If they switched from months to years, you would get an obvious discontinuity in the line. rossnixon 02:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Enoch bore Methuselah when Enoch was 65. If this were 65 months then Enoch was a 5 year old getting married and making babies. Many say this, and publish this. But I will retract this argument in one exception (the Septuagint Genesis). Though I can prove it not the true Genesis, and that it came from false Floods as Assyrian epoch 2970bc and Egyptian epoch 3090bc, as well as false Adams Greek 5200bc and Hindu 5500bc. The figures themselves (when it is said that someone desired to make them more proportional from father to death); I had always refuted this with postFlood figures in mind, (being that I see the astronomy in the shorter original). BUT the preFlood does (yes) support those who wish the MONTH-Theory, because the adding of the 600 years (six of 100) for Venus to just six people (as is also done after the Flood) will result in no figure lower than 162 for fatherhood. The 65 of Mahalalel and 65 of grandson Enoch become 165, so that Jared's 162 between them is the lowest figure which as 162 months is age 13. Thus yes, someone could claim they are months, and that there is no 5-year old of 65-month Mahalalel and Enoch, or 70-month Kenan, or 7-year old Enosh of 90 months, because these figures have been changed to 165 and 170 and 190 months to be 13 or 14 years old. Mind you, I see this as false, as lies. But I am a person that sees errors, and corrects them. I condemn the world, telling them why they won't see nor survive the surprising Armageddon that they don't see nor look for. So this math game with longevity is an example. Did you not know the ancient Romans during Jesus felt as you did about Jewish Genesis being a big joke? So yes. they would see Septuagint Genesis as the original, not Hebrew Genesis, because they too would see these as months.98.144.71.174 (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This game and blindness is also true with the king list where because a spirit Xisuthros claimed he was Noah for 40 days after Noah's death, the world since then wishes to claim Alulim was Adam, and the 10 kings are our 10 forefathers. However, in all four kinglists (day for a year) when Alulim ruled not 28,800 years but 28,800 days exactly 8 decades 80 years. In all four lists the 7th king (Sibziana) rules after Enoch (the 7th forefather) is killed or dies. So Sibziana cannot be Enoch. I find that it was 4th king Kichunna of Larsa that Enoch defied, so that it was Alulim the first king (angel, one of our beloving older brothers, elder, a Watcher) struck him with anti-matter making him disappear into the air (atmosphere heaven). Only a person who takes time to be tutored the whole timeline will be able to see without all these posted cynical skeptic attacks in a war against what is religion or God or science. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 10:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Longevity Not Gradual
Ages of 900 existed only for 1656 years beginning with Adam as 930. They did not come down, they went up; up to Noah 950 (and this was after the effects of a Flood), up to Jared 962, up to Methuselah 969. The Flood then dropped ages, plunged them downward in 857 years to Exodus (427+430). Way too many religions are saying and have said gradual drop from accumulated sin of humans. And although Septuagint would increase this postFlood plunge by a more gradual 600 to be 1457 (as 1027+430) or by 720 to be 1577 (as 1147+430) or more gradual 1677 (as 1247+430), it has now been 3500 years at the flat line current levels. This speaks out and says crash collapse impact disaster, not gradual sin, nor accumulating error.98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

120 Years, is it a Longevity, or a DeadLine Date
There is an alternate interpretation of Genesis 6's limitation of 120 years on the life of man. It states that 120 years (or months or whatever - ancient Hebrew tends to get a bit muddy on things like days, etc.) is the length of time from God's warning until the flood. In other words, God was saying "That's it: in 120 years, man's time will be up." 5minutes 19:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe James Ussher agrees with you.68.50.57.15 (talk) 19:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, Moses the writer of Genesis is the only man listed to live 120 years. Exodus says Israelites in Sinai died at 60. And parents and forefathers of Moses lived 137. Aaron died before Moses at 123, and Job died before Moses living additional years to age 140, presumably the oldest man of that year (if you translate it to fit, and not say it was an additional 140 more). Perhaps the 120 tradition came from no one after Moses ever living to be 120; but that's not true, we have them even now they say. It seems a 137 is max if EVERYTHING is best accounted for other than what the Flood has caused. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 16:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Names of families, tongues, countries, and nations
Gen 10:20 mentions of the descendents of Ham as being names of families, tribes, cities, etc. depending on which version of the Holy Bible you are referencing. I think there is even an earlier note of such a thing. I feel it possible that the numbers of years are entirely accurate but that although these are names of individuals, the names and years also reference the lineage, much like a surname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.146.22.19 (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC) That would work except the Bible is very explicit. it not only says "Adam begot Seth" but it also says after Adam begot Seth, reinforcing it (Gen. 5:4). It even gives Adams comments on Seth's birth (verse 3). Not only on Seth, but for Methuselah and Noah as well (verses 22 and 29).

Good article
This is one of the most neutral, well-written articles I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Good job, editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreamanderson (talk • contribs) 12:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

ICR and Vapour Canopy
"The Institute for Creation Research has posited that a vapor canopy surrounded the earth before the Flood, and that it was the source of the floodwaters."

I doubt the ICR claims that a vapour canopy is the exclusive source of flood water. Considering Genesis 7:11; "... the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened".

The original claim quoted above should have a citation, or it must be re-worked including the possible removal of citation 5 (and the text to which it refers) which links to a paper which assumes only a water canopy supplied flood water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsultima (talk • contribs) 09:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Please edit the "lifespan" section
The Babylonians were the first recorded civilization to figure out the 365 day calendar. In the Hebrew religious tradition, the books of Moses (which include Genesis) were handed down orally by the priestly class, the first, ah, "Torah" scroll was not actually written down until the time of the Babylonian captivity under Nebucahdnezzar. It is inacurate to try to place the blame for the extreme ages on lunar cycles or what not in large part because the Babylonians had a calendar that was actually, if anything, even more accurate astronomically than ours is. If the Babylonians knew of the 365 day year, chances are, so did the Hebrew scribe who first wrote down Genesis.

In other words, when it says "969 years old," they MEAN 969 years, literally. Also, the Hebrew language is a combination of Canaanite and Babylonian, which in turn was derived from early Sumerian, at least, the semitic tribes who took over Sumeria. Hebrew writting in fact, is actually Canaanite in origin. The Canaanites, like the Babylonians, knew of the 365 day year, they had to, as their kingdom, like their Phoenician neighbors to the north, were also sea farers and had to know about the stars.

You may want to revise it, or, at least place alternate view points from other sources. Please be aware that the Babylonians did indeed have a 365 day calendar, and that an actual "Bible" of sorts was first written down in Babylon. In fact, most Hebrew writting can be traced directly back to Babylon. And Canaan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.63.78.91 (talk) 05:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Its Obvious?
This passage seems a little speculative, "It is obvious that longer lived people would produce more offspring and therefore longevity would only be lost if the individuals who survived the flood did not have the longevity gene". A 70 year old person won't necessarily produce less offspring than a 120 year old would during their lives. Also, I would think a source would be needed for this so called "scientific scrutiny" the section claims to use. If there are no objections, I'll change it up a bit.24.22.147.163 (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that Genesis 6:3 doesn't say WHEN it would take effect, and if we interpret it to mean a life-span limit, then it wouldn't mean "120 years from now" or "after the flood" but instead would mean "eventually." Extremely sexy (talk) 23:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Are Humans Today Really Some Sort of Paragon???
It's so much fun that people today assume that they are living in some kind of Golden Age, while it may very well be so that we are a degenerated joke of a human being, actually living in the Dark Ages when it comes to many things (consciousness-wise for example). But that's narcissism for you- how could EVER someone have been greater than you??!!! ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.250.126 (talk) 14:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, humans today live significantly (very close to twice the avg lifespan) longer than those of a few hundred years ago. In that aspect, we're good. And the difference between pre-flood and post-flood was the environment (very very oxygen-laden, which is extremely healthy for humans) and not really the way we lived. 209.173.122.191 (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Methuselah only link between Adam and Noah?
This statement is not entirely true. Yes, according to the Bible Methuselah was alive when both Adam and Noah were alive but there were at least four others that fall into that category according to the Bible. Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, and Jared. Glytch'd (talk) 21:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Some nice bit of BS here
"However, both evolution and creation indicate that the nature of human biology was significantly different in the ancient past"

No, just no, 6,000 years ago isn't the ancient past to biological changes. Genetically, the most difference you'd find between people from 6,000 years ago and now would be their lactose tolerance. It wasn't significantly different, it wasn't different at all. --89.124.240.181 (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that is a nice bit of BS, thanks for sharing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.173.122.191 (talk) 00:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Very poor article
I've read a great deal of religiously-oriented articles on Wikipedia, and I have to say that this is one of the poorest I've come across. Please, sit back a second and think about this. We're actually seriously speculating that a human being could live to be 900? This is patently absurd, this is the 21st century, I cannot believe we have a Wikipedia article attempting to defend the ridiculous creationist viewpoint that a human lived to be 900.

I'd completely remove that section, or at least heavily edit it to emphasize that this is just your basic ancient mythological tale. But then, this section has been on this article for a couple years, judging from previous talk page comments, so I doubt I'll be able to remove it. But seriously, this needs to go away, it's insane.Aelius28 (talk) 08:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Would you mind sourcing, from a scientific article, your POV that a human living to the 900s is absurd and ridiculous, so that it can be compared against other widely held POVs currently extant in the article. JJB 18:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

 * The "Interpretations" section is mostly full of incomplete sentences. Those that do express complete thoughts do so in an inappropriate tone. This section needs to be entirely reworked. Just sayin'.24.185.121.36 (talk) 22:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this rational dignity and recognition of absurdity the reason that paid science, paid scientists, paid schools and universities, medical institutions all publish and media promote potential life at 40 if genetically researched? I mean they avoid the number 900 so that they can be real with other Bible haters, after all 400 is reasonable and 900 isnt! No? True? I am trying to see why Time magazine can print science and hopes of 400 while the people slam Genesis for 900.98.144.71.174 (talk) 10:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Lifespan
I deleted the section again because the writing still isn't up to the standard we should look for. But the Carol Hill article is actually quite good. Hill is a geologist, not a biblical scholar, but she's read (cited) many genuinely scholarly works. I suggest going to those works, not Hill. PiCo (talk) 07:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't delete sources because not "up to the standard". If they are known somewhere to be unreliable, that's one thing, but otherwise, use the "refimprove" template and/or find the sources yourself. JJB 18:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

"Tradition" section
This should probably be rearranged to put the various traditions in chronological order - Genesis first, then Enoch and Jubilees, then the midrashic Book of Jasher. Thoughts? PiCo (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with that. I doubt your implication that this Jasher is no older than 1625, but I have no sources on it either way. JJB 18:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say I strongly suspect that the Book of Jasher being referred to in the article is from 1625. All I know about I can share with you: There's an page on Wiki called Sefer haYashar (literally "scroll of the upright ones"); it's a disambig page, leading to several articles. One of them is to Sefer haYashar (biblical references, which deals briefly with the places in the bible which mention the Book of Jashar (or Jasher); the rest lead to several other works called the Book of Jasher/Jashar. There's quite a few. One of them is Sefer haYashar (midrash), which, according to the Wikipedia article, can't be traced back any further than 1625, although it claims for itself a much more ancient origin. J.H. Parry brought out an English translation in 1887, and this is the one quoted in our article. PiCo (talk) 00:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

"Hebrew bible" section
Created this section to put everything about the Genesis text in one place. Something's wrong - something with the table - figures don't check out. I'll try to fix this up. But what do you think of the section in principle? PiCo (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The canopy is mentioned in Gen. 1:6-8 & 2:5-6. It is also implied in 8:22. This canopy would screen out ultraviolet rays and thus increase man's lifespan. 68.50.57.15 (talk) 19:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Need good sources
Articles need WP:RS and need to avoid WP:fringe. Ways to recognize a good source is that it's from a juried journal, a university press, or is cited by authors in those two venues. If a source makes big claims, has been around for a while, and fails those tests -- and hasn't even managed to attract the attention of reputable debunkers -- it's probably fringe. Other giveaways: the source is self-published, or put out by a fringe-theory press, or limited to a one-off website. People come to the encyclopedia to find things out, and unratified theories should not appear. I'm for deleting a couple here, but they should be put back if it turns out that Best & the other one are actually reputable, respected and cited. DavidOaks (talk) 19:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:Fringe in the section "Evaluatimg claims" has this rule regarding Genesis: "For example, the Book of Genesis itself should be primarily covered as a work of ancient literature... "Fringe theories that oppose reliably sourced qualitative research - denialist histories, for example - should be described clearly within their own articles, but should not be given undue weight in more general discussions of the topic." Best focuses on where the Genesis authors may have got the numbers and how the numbers may have been distorted by translation errors, which is a legitimate analysis of ancient literature, not as an attempt to prove they were real people. Three sentences summarizing Best's theory within a general discussion of Genesis numbers is not undue weight.  But to delete these sentences when competing theories of Carol Hill and Henry Morris remain in the article, would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Greensburger (talk) 02:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The point is that Best is essentially a self-published authority. Morris at least works with a press (though not an academic one; do note that the only thing claimed for him is a calculation which is self-evident, and could be deleted without harm to the article. Let's do so). Hill's published in a magazine that's been around for 61 years and is taken by lots of college libraries. Her claim is modest. Best's is much more elaborate and controversial, therefore with a higher burden of proof. It's very WP:Undue indeed, as it gives the impression of equal status. Go back and have a look at WP:Fringe: "Fringe theory in a nutshell: In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, an idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory. Even debunking or disparaging references are adequate, as they establish the notability of the theory outside of its group of adherents." "Coverage on Wikipedia should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it actually is" "it is important that Wikipedia itself does not become the validating source for non-significant subjects. Other well-known, reliable, and verifiable sources that discuss an idea are required so that Wikipedia does not become the primary source for fringe theories." (I just finished genealogizing a third-party source that used an old version of a Wikipedia article to become the source for a new version!). By all standards, this has got to go. Biblical history tends to attract speculations and hypotheses...DavidOaks (talk) 02:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a solution: Kevin Kileen, Biblical Scholarship, Science and Politics in Early Modern England (Ashgate 2009) attributes (p. 94) recognition of both the "years=lunar months" theory and its problem in crediting Enoch with fatherhood at the age of "some six yeares an an halfe" to Thomas Brown (Pseudodoxia Epidemica: OR,. ENQUIRIES. INTO. Very many received. TENENTS. And commonly presumed. TRUTHS 1672). Inserting this renders the whole athing a matter of reporting historically-held opinions, without any turfing about the credibility of modern theories and their proponents. DavidOaks (talk) 03:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Almost everything written about the Genesis is speculation and hypotheses - other than "this is what it says and this is what other people have written about it". You quote WP:Fringe: "In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, an idea should be referenced ... by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory."  How about two references on the back cover of Best's book, one by Prof. Lloyd R. Bailey, Duke University who wrote that the book "is well written and plausibly flows from its basic presupposition that Noah's flood was a local river flood." and by Prof. Davis A. Young, Calvin College, who wrote that the book "is exceptionally well organized, written, and documented.  The scientific matters you touch on appear to be accurate." Greensburger (talk) 03:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, jacket blurbs certainly do not constitute engagement with theoretical propositions. What I've put forward allows us to acknowledge a longstanding theory and its counterargument. There really isn't any basis for bringing forward Best's theory about the use and misuse of decimal points in ancient Mesopotamia. DavidOaks (talk) 06:01, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Need to add a section for "Generational Telescoping" under interpretations.

 * http://www.reasons.org/resources/non-staff-papers/the-genesis-genealogies
 * http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis_genealogies.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imhavoc (talk • contribs) 13:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think 2 articles by a theoretical chemist are enough to show it's a significant interpretation. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The Methuselah Foundation
Is it worth mentioning this foundation dedicated to extending human life? Or is use of his namesake not relevant enough? --Pat Morita 01:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.26.84.225 (talk)

Mistranslation
Footnote 14 in this section references an article by Donald V. Etz in Vetus Testamentum (1993). However, that article does not argue for a conversion of years to months, nor for a 10-month year. It presents a more complex derivation of the numbers in Genesis 5. I believe that the reference should be deleted or replaced with one that is relevant to the subject of the section, or Etz's argument on p 181 of his article should be presented here. Tree1805 (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I made the corrections you suggested and cited Etz's abstract because that is the only part relevant to this section. All three references suggest that the Genesis 5 numbers were multiplied by 10. Greensburger (talk) 13:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The Biblical references to Methusaleh in Genesis
5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 5:22 and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:  5:23 and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:  5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

5:25 And Methuselah lived a hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech: 5:26 and Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters. 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 02:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Nine not 8 on the Ark
The source for 9 on the ark seems to be year 2242am and Methuselah living 14 years past it to year 2256am. However. despite Hebrews 11:7 defending the number 8 not 9, the difficulty in speaking against the most ancient of lost records is not due to Methuselah surviving as being truth. It is because Arpaxad is born in the 2nd year, and so conceived during the Flood. Shem's wife walks off pregnant which makes 9 people. Thus reference to 9 must have existed to create this controversy long before chronology was altered to make it Methuselah. In this way as many truths, correct in both ways pending on pwerspective. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 02:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Source of 2256am
The debating whether Noah was born in 1656am, or reborn baptized thru Flood in 1656am. Born in 1656 makes Flood 2256am when he is 600. The reverse also exists of death in 1656am because 1306 to year 1307am plus 350 his is death in 1656am. Or with evidence that he died before the new year of 350, it could simply be 1307 +349. Christmas December 25 in 1770bc is irrefutably by any scholar the Egyptian date Paopi 17 (2-17-2256am if 600 years after the Flood then becomes confused as the Flood date 600 years after Noah's birth). 98.144.71.174 (talk) 03:17, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

2242am and 2262am
Two methods or sources or witnesses create these. One is Babylon's Marduk Temple as 3192am. This is based on 2256am +3744 to 6000 as four times 936. Seder Olam says exodus to Solomon's temple is 1313-834bc. With the temple in 1033bc (Eusebius) the Masoretic 2992am for it would place 3192am in 834bc as Marduk Temple not Solomon Temple. Josephus does the same with Solomon's temple in 1073bc as 40 years earlier with Solomon as 80 years 1077-997bc not 40 years 1037-997bc. This is because the 3744 (4x 936) or 3192am +2808 (3x 936) is used in long chronologies as Flood 2256am +936 to Marduk Temple as 3192am. Using NeoBabylonian 2256-3192am (Arpaxad 2945-2009bc) we find Josephus' Solomon's Temple is 1073bc because it is 936 after Marduk Temple. Both Josephus & Seder Olam are equating Solomon's temple with a Jupiter Marduk in Babylon whether 2009-1073bc or 1770-834bc. With this is unveiled thru the different intepreations of who Menes is. Menes has been Nimrod, he has been Adam. The abbreviation Men is equivalent to the abbreviation in Hindu for Noah who is Man Nu, and as Manu, he is an avatar of Vish-Nu, who everyone in antidiluvian Hindu record are called Menus, or ten avatars of VishNu, Noah being the 7th because Adam and Enoch and Lamech are skipped over. Thus the answer is short longevity is mourned as unattainble longevity of Man or Men whether Nimrod or Noah or Adam. As Noah 3192am = 2242am +950 as the marker to mourn. As Adam 3192am =2262am +930 as the marker. Then the (2nd witness) ancient sources these ancient historians sought to prove this come from years that Masoretic would place during Hamurabi. 2256am in 360-day is 1778bc Feb 26 (13-year Marduk pf Mars), 2256am in Egyptian is 1770bc May 13 (simaltaneous with 360-day 2264am as if 2 years after Flood), Egyptian 2264am is 1762bc destruction of Mari Syria by Hamurabi.

Oldest person who has ever lived
This is technically incorrect. In the Bible, Enoch never dies, he is called by the Lord for being such a good man, therefore, he would still be alive today, making him over 5,000 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.193.5.199 (talk) 09:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

 * The statement "According to the Hebrew Bible, Methuselah is purported to be the oldest person to ever live" is false. He is the oldest person listed in the Hebrew Bible, but the claim that he was the oldest person of all is never made. Statalyzer (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

 * IP Editor - Enoch went to heaven according to the Bible in Hebrews 11:5 and Genesis 5:24. Saying that he is still "alive" is somewhat of a stretch, even for people who believe this happened.
 * Statalyzer - Methuselah is the person with the longest lifespan as listed in the Bible. So I think we may have some wording change. Ckruschke (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

 * Ckruschke - it sounds like we're saying the same thing. "The oldest of all the people listed by the Bible" is not quite the same as "The person the Bible claims as the oldest of anyone".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Statalyzer (talk • contribs) 06:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep. I think that "it is generally agreed" that Methusaleh had the longest lifespan of anyone, but the Bible doesn't say that. Ckruschke (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

 * Methuselah is nothing like the oldest person to have lived. En-men-lu-ana, king of Bad-tibira, ruled 43,200 years over his city (his lifespan was presumably even longer), and many other kings of that time also ruled tens of thousands of years. This needs to be noted. PiCo (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

 * No offense PiCo, but why would we do that? This page has no mention of any other extra-Biblical "long life" folks so why on Earth would "this need to be noted"? Considering "no reputable historian/archeologist" puts any stock in either these lifespans or the length of their reigns considering the archeological history of the cities they ruled amount to less than 10% of the total 64,800 yrs that these kings supposedly reigned. I've read a few interesting research papers on what the unknown variable "divisor" that would be used to "normalize" these years - with the most recent one being that X=3600 yrs so a 36,000 yr reign is normalized to 10 yrs and then with a short discussion on who these kings really were based upon other historical sources.Ckruschke (talk) 18:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

Methusalem?
I searched for Methusalem and got here with Redirected from Methusalem. However, "Methusalem" is the name I've learned and the article has no mention about it. There are some possibilities: the character was never known as "Methusalem" in English, or the name has been changed. 82.141.126.28 (talk) 12:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Methusalem is an alternate spelling (which I just learned after an extensive Google search) from the beginning of the Christian era so the redirect is correct. Ckruschke (talk) 18:58, 20 May 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

 * But has the character ever been known as Methusalem in English? Apparently, English is the only germanic language not to use that version of the name (at least in Wikipedia). 82.141.126.28 (talk) 18:11, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes - as I said it was an early Christian spelling of Methusaleh. When these early Christian writings were translated into english, you then have Methusalem. I'm not sure where you are getting that english is the only language that doesn't use this version. The "STANDARD" spelling of his name is "METHUSELAH". "METHUSALEM" is an "ALTERNATE" spelling.Ckruschke (talk) 18:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

 * It is the only GERMANIC language. There are ten of those apart from English, five of them have article of the character. All of those have Methusalem (German and Swedish) or Metusalem (Danish, Dutch and Norwegian). And there are not so many with the "h" -ending: Old English, Bulgarian, Esperanto, Croatian, Indonesian, Finnish and Ukrainian. 82.141.126.28 (talk) 03:53, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Symbolic Interpretation of Lifespan
The section on interpetation opens "The meaning of Methuselah's age has engendered considerable speculation, but no widely accepted conclusions. These speculations can be discussed under four categories and their combinations: literal, mistranslation, symbolic, and fictional interpretations." However the section on symbolism discusses the symbolism of 8, the number of his generation, rather than 969, his lifespan. Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

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0.1 years?
Why has nobody pointed out the problems with suggesting that the word "year" actually means "1/10 of a year)? If that's what year meant, then that interpretation means Mahalalel begot Jared at age 6.5, and also means Enoch begot Methuselah at 6.5. Primal Groudon (talk) 02:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Months interpretation
This article says that an interpretation of Methuselah's longevity suggests that "months" was mistranslated as "years". The article says that this would mean he was seventy-eight when he died, but I have just done a quick calculation on the calculator on my mobile telephone which implies that this means he would have been eighty when he died. Vorbee (talk) 17:04, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Myth
No historian in the sane mind believes Methuselah's longevity were an objective historical fact. That's why we default to myth. See WP:CHOPSY and WP:FRINGE/PS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Vampire: The Masquerade
In the vampire based RPG, methuselah is used to refer to one of the oldest vampires of a vampire clan. Namely 5th generation to 7th generation (generations being from Caine as progenitor.) 2600:100C:B249:F359:1916:3795:DACD:C200 (talk) 21:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Methuselah identified as a real person named Meruserre
So if Noah's flood is caused by Santorini, which it is and can be proven, then the pre-Noachian Kings lived around 1600BC. Who were they? The biggest empire at that time were the Syrian Hyksos, who were so powerful, that they reigned over Egypt. They also reigned over there neighbors the Israelis.

The names of the Hyksos rulers like Khyan/Apachnan - are the same as the Biblical rulers like Cainan. And Methuseleh lines up with "Meruserre Yaqub-Har". And Khyan's son Yanassi is Enoch. And Mahalel is Sakir-Har (הֲ is mistaken for the hieroglyph በ). And Seth is Salatis. Abel as Aper. So it's a near-exact match of the hyksos list to the pre-noachian kings in the Bible. We know exactly when they lived, and have archaeological evidence of their existence.

And they did not live 900 years a piece; that was a calendar change that has been discussed for 2000 years.

 * Do you have sources for these identifications? Yaqub-Har's name indicates a West Semitic origin. Dimadick (talk) 19:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Corect. Har could be read/interpreted as "El". Here is a source:
 * https://www.academia.edu/79921459/A_Simple_Chronology_for_Biblical_Archaeology — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58B:E7F:8410:85C7:7D5A:F229:303F (talk) 21:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not published at all, so we can't use it. He's a software engineer writing this stuff as a hobby. Doug Weller  talk 08:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The oldest person in the Bible.
The oldest person in the Bible was Noah who lived to be 950 years old. 98.21.247.74 (talk) 04:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Methuselah


text:
Transatlanticism

Transatlanticism is the fourth studio album by rock band Death Cab for Cutie, released on October 7, 2003, by Barsuk Records. At this point in their career, the group had toured and recorded for nearly a half-decade. With tensions rising, the band decided to take time away from one another; notably, Ben Gibbard collaborated with electronic musician Dntel (Jimmy Tamborello), and released an album, Give Up, under the name the Postal Service. Death Cab regrouped in late 2002 to create Transatlanticism, which was recorded in a leisurely manner over five-day stretches until June 2003.

The record is a concept album, exploring a theme of long-distance romance. Gibbard penned the lyrics, which are somber and focus on the need to be loved. Musically, the album utilizes ambience and instrumental sparseness as an extension of this theme. The album's title, likewise, references the Atlantic Ocean and uses it as a metaphor for geographic and emotional separation. Chris Walla, the band's guitarist, produced the album as he had for its predecessors. The album's artwork was created by artist Adde Russell.

Prior to the album's release, Give Up had become a huge success, eventually going platinum—unusual territory for indie rock artists. The band were also referenced on the television drama The O.C., which increased their profile. Expectations for Transatlanticism were high, with the band receiving renewed attention. The album was a success: it charted at number 97 on the Billboard 200, and was certified Platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), for shipments of 1,000,000 copies in the United States. It received acclaim from music critics, who praised its emotional tone and expansive music. It is also the band's first album with drummer Jason McGerr.

Background
Death Cab for Cutie formed in Bellingham, Washington, in 1997 by singer-songwriter Ben Gibbard, multi-instrumentalist Chris Walla, bassist Nick Harmer, and drummer Nathan Good. Gibbard had met Walla during their tenure at Western Washington University, and bonded over their taste in music. The quartet made their debut on the limited cassette release You Can Play These Songs with Chords. The following year, the group relocated to Seattle to pursue music in earnest. Their proper debut album, Something About Airplanes, was released on Seattle independent label Barsuk Records. They continued to build a following through relentless touring, and issued their second album, We Have the Facts and We're Voting Yes, in 2000. The group shifted their percussionists numerous times: Good was replaced by Jayson Tolzdorf-Larson, and then by Michael Schorr, with whom the band recorded their third LP, The Photo Album, released in 2001.

The Photo Album creation was rushed for financial reasons. Each band member had recently left their day jobs, with the band now their primary source of income for the first time. They had also set a tour for later in the year, which led to a rushed, difficult recording process. Upon its release, The Photo Album represented the group's biggest success yet. It sold over 50,000 records at that time, which was unprecedented for an indie band. Despite this, relations between the band grew strained. The group had issues with Schorr, and Walla—who enjoyed recording music more than performing it—was feeling exhausted by the entire experience. It culminated in a tense fight at a tour stop in Baltimore in October 2001 where the band nearly broke up. After their touring commitments were complete, the band took a hiatus.

Gibbard moved to the Silver Lake neighborhood of Los Angeles, and began collaborating with electronic music artist Dntel (Jimmy Tamborello). The duo completed an album together, titled Give Up, which was issued on Sub Pop Records in February 2003. It became a bigger success than either had imagined, selling over 500,000 copies within its first two years of release, and over one million within the decade. Walla, meanwhile, continued to explore his interest in recording, producing albums by the Thermals and the Decemberists. By the time the band regrouped to work on their next album, tensions had cooled. Schorr had departed the band and was replaced by drummer Jason McGerr. His addition assisted in bringing stability to the band, as his calm demeanor helped settle the band's previous dynamic.

Recording and production
Transatlanticism was recorded between December 2002 and June 2003. The album was mainly recorded at the Hall of Justice, a studio in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood that Walla purchased in 2000. A large portion of recording was also completed at Tiny Telephone Studios in San Francisco, where Walla worked as a engineer. He credited that studio as "the fifth member of the band", noting that its isolated location allowed him to "get locked in there in the most beautiful kind of way." The group made a conscious effort to spread out the recording process across months and studios, as they had had a poor experience recording its predecessor in a short time frame. Sessions at both studios were typically held over five day spans, with the band working leisurely and allowing themselves time to return to the recordings later for a fresh perspective.

In contrast to the negative atmosphere that produced its predecessor, the working environment for Transatlanticism was a kind and creative one. McGerr's joining the band refreshed their own commitment to the project, including Walla, who had at various times threatened to leave in the past. Gibbard considered it key that Walla was enjoying himself, and cited it as an integral piece to the album's success. To help spark inspiration during the recording process, the quartet utilized Oblique Strategies, a card-based method for promoting creativity jointly created by musician Brian Eno and painter Peter Schmidt, first published in 1975. As with previous Death Cab records, Transatlanticism was recorded entirely on analog tape, avoiding the convenience of digital technology, which was still new then. With the extra time taken in the studio, the fidelity of the album is of a considerably higher quality than previous efforts. The band recorded 12 songs, but left one incomplete at the time of its release.

Prior to the album's release, Gibbard stated: "...unlike The Photo Album, I feel like this record is definitely more like a proper album. We’ve tried to construct it with transitions of songs going in and out of each other, and I think it's a little bit more expansive than the last record."

Composition
Throughout its eleven tracks, Transatlanticism is a concept album exploring themes of isolation, sorrow, and long-distance romance. Lauren Viera at the Chicago Tribune categorized the album's contents as "earnest love songs and bittersweet ballads." When creating the LP, Gibbard felt "fascinated with the idea of geographic barriers as metaphors for personal, emotional barriers." The album's title is a word Gibbard created to reference the Atlantic Ocean's vast reach and its ability to separate individuals. Harmer looked up the word and discovered it indeed already existed, having been used in science journals. The inspiration for the album's title track came from Gibbard observing individuals saying goodbye to each another at Heathrow Airport, and knowing that they may not see one another for some time. "I had this fantastic idea of what if people were just able to transport themselves across the places or events that separated them," Gibbard told writer Andy Greenwald on the song's genesis.

Prior to creating the album, Gibbard felt increasingly exhausted with touring, and had a relationship fall apart because of being away for so long. These experiences comprised what Gibbard reflected on as the "lowest" year in his life, and influenced the songwriting on Transatlanticism profoundly. He began to focus more on songwriting as a career. He was aiming to complete one song per day, and for the album, he brought the band 25–30 demo tracks. Much of Gibbard's lyrics were composed during a "period of exile" when he was living in San Francisco, house-sitting for John Vanderslice, the artist and owner of Tiny Telephone Studios. Walla considered Gibbard's writing an improvement on past releases, later calling it "some of the most genuine and straightforward writing he's ever done, really open and unguarded in a way that was kind of new." His work with Tamborello informed his songwriting for Transatlanticism, with particular emphasis on redeveloping songs and deciding what to leave in or out. Gibbard would submit his songs to the band, who from there would take them and redevelop them. The musicians would take each song, break it back down to its melody and lyrics, and completely re-work the original arrangement if they felt it creatively necessary. "By asking for, and allowing more input from all of us, we could all help each other to explore new territory and take a few more risks," Harmer said.

Greenwald, writing for MTV, writes that the album's songs "slow dance between genres—lush, sensitive piano ballads bump up against and blur into kaleidoscopic guitar grooves." The album emphasizes ambient noises, including "clicks, whooshes, and whirs"; the title track, for example, is built around the humming of an airplane engine. Its mood is often somber or dark, which Gibbard figured was an extension of his point of view in life: "I have this sense of realism that sometimes is a little depressing," he confessed to Magnet in 2003. Jim Fusilli, writing for The Wall Street Journal, found the content on the album "often-gloomy, [but] yearning-for-optimism." Walla rejected the notion that the content on the album was bleak, noting that Gibbard's lyrics are mainly a "real simple expression of need and needing to be loved." Kelefa Sanneh, writing for The New York Times, observed that an extension of the album's long-distance theme lies in each song's reliance "upon a single, fragile-sounding melodic line—a skein of broken guitar chords, a reverberating piano."

Artwork
The album's artwork was created by Seattle-based painter Adde Russell. Russell knew Josh Rosenfeld, one of the founders of Barsuk Records, and McGerr had been her drum teacher. Rosenfeld asked the band if they would be interested in working with Russell, and they agreed. Russell began by producing a copious amount of artwork, in varying styles. "I had the expectation that either they'd find something in the mess that they liked or that the band would see how much work I'd done that they wouldn't have the heart to say no," she later remembered. The crow on the album cover was found by Russell in a hobby shop. Initially, it was a white styrofoam bird with red string. Harmer was particularly interested in this imagery, and continued her to keep working, and she eventually delivered the final album cover.

Eric Gansworth, writing for At Length magazine, describes the album's inner sleeve: The striking image on the front cover, a soft-focus painting of a blackbird ensnared in some kind of blood-red string is simultaneously iconic and mysterious. The interior booklet reveals an abundance of representational painting, collage and assemblage, visually echoing the album's themes with repeated imagery of red ropy tangles (reminiscent of anatomical textbook illustrations of arteries), blown electrical fuses, a humming bird, rendered in "outsider art" fashion, a spectral human figure ambiguously situated in roiling water, narrowly cropped photos of train cars, and other repeated elements, some at the abstract end of the spectrum and others falling closer to graphic design. A figurative human hand, reminiscent of Adam's reaching out to God on Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling, is also tangled in red tendrils. Depending on how you hold the booklet, it either opens an expanse of several minimalist panel-spreads with superimposed lyrics, or is in sharp juxtaposition against the hummingbird, its needle-like bill replacing the hand of God.

Release
Death Cab for Cutie first announced Transatlanticism on June 25, 2003, on Pitchfork. In the interim between albums, the group had licensed its songs for usage on the popular television drama The O.C., which helped introduce them to a wider audience. "A Lack of Color" was used on the show, and the band appeared as itself in an episode of the second season, performing "Title and Registration" and "The Sound of Settling" in the show's fictional music venue. This publicity, plus the wide success of Gibbard's other project, the Postal Service, led to considerably higher interest in Transatlanticism from the public. The album leaked online before its release; Gibbard called this a "good thing," noting, "if anything I like the idea of normal people getting a chance to hear it before it comes out."

Transatlanticism was released on October 7, 2003, by Barsuk Records. It was released physically on compact disc, double-LP vinyl, and cassette; additionally, the record saw digital distribution on the iTunes Store, which had debuted that year. In addition to regular formats, Barsuk also issued a limited release for audiophiles on SACD, the initial successor to CDs that purported to have higher audio quality and more storage. Walla extolled the possibilities of the format in a profile for CMJ at that time: "I think on a really subconscious level, [SACDs make] music more compelling to listen to," he said. Initial sales projections from the label were for first-week sales of between 6–8,000 copies. It debuted to over 15,000 copies sold, and became their first album to chart on Billboard 200 at number 97. It had sold over 100,000 copies by the following April, and by end of 2004, it had moved 225,000 copies. By 2007, the record had reached 530,000 copies sold, which music journalist Greg Kot judged was "a massive hit by indie-rock standards". On April 29, 2008, it was certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA).

In 2013, to celebrate the album's tenth anniversary, Barsuk reissued the LP on vinyl. The label also released Transatlanticism Demos, a collection of demo versions of songs from Transatlanticism.

Touring
The band regrouped to rehearse for the tour behind Transatlanticism in late 2003. In contrast to their previous live setups, which were simpler and more focused on the four instruments, the band made it a priority to include samplers to incorporate the soundscapes present on Transatlanticism. Previously, the quartet had driven themselves from city to city in an Econoline van. For this tour, their accommodations were upgraded: they paid for a tour bus for the first time. Gibbard justified the expense in an interview with CMJ: "All of us are past this Catholic-style indie-rock guilt about taking a bus. No, dude, taking a bus is rad." They toured throughout late 2003 alongside Nada Surf, The Long Winters, and Mates of State. It was the band's first tour with only one supporting act per show. Their rationale was that as their catalog had grown, it felt more reasonable to play longer shows. In early 2004, they again toured the U.S., co-headlining with Ben Kweller.

Its touring commitments for Transatlanticism included spots at the 2004 Coachella Festival in Indio, California, New York's Siren Festival, Q101's "Block Party" in Chicago, and the "Bite of Portland" festival, a fundraiser for the Special Olympics Oregon. Pearl Jam invited the band to open for them on their 2004 Vote for Change tour, and the band concluded the year with another headlining tour across the U.S., between October and November 2004. They were originally set to open for pop punk group Blink-182 that December, but the band had to cancel as Gibbard developed a benign cyst on his leg that required surgery and a rest period. All of the touring for Transatlanticism took place Stateside; touring overseas was complicated for the band, as their record label contracts were split between nine different companies there. These issues and the band's rising stardom led them to court major-labels in 2004. The band's touring behind Transatlanticism is documented in the film Drive Well, Sleep Carefully by director Justin Mitchell.

Reception
Transatlanticism was met with widespread critical acclaim. At Metacritic, which assigns a normalized rating out of 100 to reviews from mainstream publications, the album received an average score of 85, based on 21 reviews. Uncut magazine hailed it as "a record of rare beauty and poise", and Alternative Press deemed it "Death Cab's slowest and most mature recording" with "hidden bits of magic [that] reveal themselves brilliantly." Andy Greenwald from Spin found the imagery of the lyrics strikingly vivid while praising Gibbard and Walla's musical direction. Rob Theakston of AllMusic wrote that Transatlanticism is "such a decadently good listen from start to finish" because of the band's maturity as songwriters and musicians.

In The A.V. Club, Stephen Thompson said the record "surpasses Gibbard's other career highpoints", calling it "a lush, impeccably produced, musically adventurous, emotionally resonant examination of the way relationships are both strengthened and damaged by distance". PopMatters critic Christine Klunk said it was a "nearly perfect pop record" whose straightforward melodies and honest narratives extolled the human condition. William Morris from Pitchfork was more critical, lamenting what he felt were Gibbard's more generalized lyrics and less edge to the band's "usually acute divinations". Stylus Magazine's Colin McElligatt said despite his strong melodies, he had regressed as a lyricist and sounded more "asinine" than before. In The Village Voice, Robert Christgau cited "We Looked Like Giants" as a "choice cut", indicating "a good song on an album that isn't worth your time or money".

In 2011, Transatlanticism was named by NPR Music as one of the fifty most important recordings of the 2000s decade, while Rolling Stone ranked it 57th on the magazine's decade-end list. In 2013, Death Cab for Cutie re-released the album, marking its 10th anniversary with a remaster available as vinyl or MP3 download, including demos for all the songs from the album. In a retrospective piece that year, Entertainment Weekly's Kyle Anderson called Transatlanticism a "classic indie-rock album", while Pitchfork editor Ian Cohen wrote, "few records open themselves up to forge those kind of moments, to be a formative emotional and listening experience, pushing you to feel what you're thinking (to flip a line from 'Lightness'), daring to be universal enough to allow you to see yourself in it."

Legacy
Transatlanticism was released at a moment where indie rock became a cultural force, gaining popularity outside its typical fanbases. Death Cab, like the Shins, Modest Mouse, and Interpol, saw increased popularity and record sales. The album also became a crossover hit for emo fans. In a cover story for Spin at that time, writer Andy Greenwald suggested that "Death Cab have found a way to communicate intimate, insular indie rock to the budding teen-emo overground". The group rejected their association with emo music, turning down an offer to tour with Dashboard Confessional, to whom they were frequently compared.

The band sparked a major-label bidding war, with A&R representatives viewing them as America's answer to the band Coldplay. Interscope's Jimmy Iovine vied to sign both the Postal Service and Death Cab, reportedly exclaiming, "Why would I only want the one that doesn't sell as much as the other one?" Gibbard viewed the band's increasing profile excitedly: "We're over being an indie rock band. We're proud of what we've accomplished, but it's far more exciting to me to reach an audience that stretches beyond any genre or age group." By November 2004, the group had left Barsuk and signed a worldwide, long-term deal with major label Atlantic Records. The process to sign the band was a difficult, year-long affair; Atlantic had to buy out the rest of the quartet's Barsuk contract and pay that label for the remaining two albums it owed them.

Gibbard has since ranked Transatlanticism as his favorite album by the band, remarking that with both the release of Give Up and Transatlanticism, "I’ve never had a more creatively inspired year."

Track listing
All lyrics written by Ben Gibbard.

Personnel
Death Cab for Cutie
 * Benjamin Gibbard – vocals, guitar, piano, foot-stomp and hand clap effects on "The Sound of Settling"
 * Nick Harmer – bass guitar, vocals on "Transatlanticism", foot-stomp and hand clap effects on "The Sound of Settling"
 * Jason McGerr – drums, percussion, foot-stomp and hand clap effects on "The Sound of Settling"
 * Christopher Walla – guitar, keyboards, samples, production, mixing (except “Expo 86” and "The Sound of Settling"), recording, vocals on "Transatlanticism"

Additional personnel
 * Ed Brooks – mastering
 * John Goodmanson – mixing on “Expo 86” and "The Sound of Settling"
 * Rob Herbst – foot-stomp and hand clap effects on "The Sound of Settling"
 * Sean Nelson – vocals on "Transatlanticism"
 * John Roderick – vocals on "Transatlanticism"
 * Phil Wandscher – vocals on "Transatlanticism"

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title: Transatlanticism