text:
Talk:Pediatrics

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Spelling
Spelling: pediatrics. This is a fully acceptable, British spelling of pediatrics. However, as per wikipedia policy, the spelling throughout an article should remain consistant. Policy gives no preference for British or American spellings. Given that this article's title is Pediatrics, it makes little sense to use the British spelling throught the article. Of course, it makes sense to mention the spelling and to keep the British spelling where used as part of an organization's name. Rklawton 16:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC) peaches More on pediatrics versus paediatrics i think "pediatrics" and paediatrics are all the same.from Ridge Essilfie

There's a slight semantic difference associated with the difference in spelling. In the USA, a pediatrician (US spelling)is a primary care physician who specializes in children. A similar situation exists in Germany. In UK and the Commonwealth generally, a paediatrician (British spellling) is a specialist physician not in primary general practice, sees patients who are either urgently admitted to hospital or who are referred by GPs, and often has had longer post-graduate training in child health than a primary care pediatrician. A paediatrician in this sense could fairly be described as an internist subspecializing in infants & children. In Australia, paediatricians (like me) are fellows of a college of physicians, which has adult & paediatric sections. This was the situation in the UK till the late 1990s, when the specialist paediatricians split off to form thier own college.

I am considering editing the article to this effect. Any comments?

--DavidB 02:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC) Major edit: I rearranged the existing material into sections, made the edit foreshadowed above, and added a bit extra to history.

More work needed, especially in sections 1 and 2, plus more references needed.

--DavidB 08:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Since there is no national association of this topic, I would believe that the spelling used in the language's hub country should be favoured. Therefore I believe the title of the page should be changed to "Paediatrics."VladJ92 (talk) 05:38, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia practice is to retain the original spelling style of the article when there is no clear national association and no consensus otherwise on which spelling style to use. See WP:RETAIN. Since this article used US spelling originally (and for most of its history), it should retain that spelling style. Kaldari (talk) 08:59, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

 * The correct spelling is 'paediatrics' because 'pediatrics' would mean someone specialising in feet.

 * 'Ped' means 'foot', hence ''pedal, pedometer, pedestrian.

 * 'Paed' means child.

 * BTW, 'paed' is pronounced as 'peed', not 'ped'.

Academic Training Section
Renamed section - previously just 'education' (which at ifrst I thought to mean paediatrics within education, rather than academic training/requirements)

Also, it's solely about the US requirements and standards, I don;t know enough to update it myself, but it should be flagged as such.--Cooper-42 14:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The first note on this discussion page should read consistent where it says 'consistant'.

sorry, παιδι means "child" not "boy" changed children are important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.19.217.139 (talk) 00:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

history section
I am deleting a reference to 'jasmine brown', said to be a famous pediatrician, as I can't find any reference to her.

--DavidB 21:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Instances of Paediatrician/Pediatrician
Changed it to be more congruous with the title except where it was a proper title. Seriously? American Association of Paediatrics? 71.178.20.195 (talk) 09:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC) Pediatricians are not always right about your children being sick you are hearing this from a real doctor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.170.111.203 (talk) 21:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

...What? 71.178.20.195 (talk) 05:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC) hello kitty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.29.67.60 (talk) 16:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Wookie-"paedia"
[in exaggerated "Australian-criminal" accent] As spellin' is required to be consistent throughout all Wikipedia articles, we are editing this article and changing the name of the journal Pediatrics (journal) to "Paediatrics" and the American Academy of Pediatricians to the American Academy of "Paediatricians" in accordance to Wiki policies .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.203.245 (talk) 12:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Also pediatricians love to talk to little kids. Excuse me? Is this a blog? :s —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.177.172 (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Dodgy dates in introduction
"The age limit of such patients ranges from 12 to 81 with the average age limit being 64 or 65 years of age."

I believe this statement to be false, don't have time to look up sources right now, but that age range is completely wrong. I'm deleting the sentence for now, but hopefully someone who knows or has sources can fix it. DrazharLn (talk) 02:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: here. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 18:48, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

photograph of Great Ormond St Hospital
It is a pity there is photo of Hôpital des Enfants Malades, as this is claimed to be the first children's hospital (not Gt Ormond St). Can anyone source one? Zohre6 (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

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UCSF Foundations 2 2019, Group 7c Goals
Expand on information within "Differences between adult and pediatric medicine" and/or add new sections to discuss the following topics: 1. Pharmacokinetic properties during development (absorption, elimination, distribution, metabolism) 2. Factors affecting dosing difference in pediatric patients (dosing intervals differences between children, adolescents, adults)

Cpktruong (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Student review by (separate) Group 7B:
 * 1. These articles substantially improve the article under Wikipedia's peer review framework. Especially appreciated was the brief, simple, and adequate introduction added before entering the PK (A,D,M,E) section. The group has met it's goals for the article.
 * 2. However accurate the information presented is, the improved sections do not flow well together or within context of the entire article. The goal for Wikipedia is to simplify complex terms, concepts, and information for the average reader. Therefore, the different PK sections should "flow" better and match the overall language style of the rest of the article if possible to promote ease of reading.Wrd530 (talk) 20:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

 * 1. The edits of this article substantially improves the article. To further improve the Pediatric article, hyperlinks to more medical terminology may be helpful for the general population, such as "gastric emptying", "methylation", "acetylation", etc. Overall, the edits are very organized and easy to follow along.
 * 2. The goals were met.
 * 3. Prompt: Does the draft submission reflect a neutral point of view? Yes, this article conveys a neutral point of view and is unbiased. Jessicabee55 (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Group 7b Student Review
 * The edits substantially improved the quality of the article. The edits provided a lot of information but were concise and easy to understand. I agree that more hyperlinks for the scientific terminology would be helpful.
 * Both goals were met.
 * Are the points verifiable with secondary sources that are readily available? The references were from reputable journals and the articles were readily accessible. Alicewu95 (talk) 06:04, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Fanny's Peer Review for UCSF Foundations 2 2019, Group 7c goals
1. Do the group’s edits substantially improve the article as described in the Wikipedia peer review “Guiding framework”?

The addition of pharmacokinetic properties greatly improved this article. Under Absorption, should "decreased acid section" be decreased acid secretion?" Also under Elimination's "normally developed kidneys," may be "full developed kidneys?"

2. Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement?

This group did achieve their goals and acted information on pharmacokinetics and dosing factors.

3. Are the edits formatted consistent with Wikipedia’s manual of style?

Yes, the format is consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style.

Fannnypack (talk) 21:29, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Education requirements
I started reworking 'Education requirements' to present information in a chronological order (draft below). However, while editing, I'm finding that the content substantially overlaps with well-written content elsewhere on Wikipedia. The latter portion then overlaps with the 'Training of pediatricians' section. In comparing the content to the cited source, I found OR and the source material itself appears subjective. Perhaps the section should just be removed? Or reduced to a single paragraph and merged into 'Training of pediatricians'?

Initial draft reworking 'Education requirements':

In high school, aspiring medical students are required to take basic science and math classes such as biology, chemistry, physics, algebra, geometry, and calculus. It is also advisable to learn foreign language and involvement in high school organizations and extracurricular activities is also encouraged.

In college or university, students must earn a bachelor's degree with relevant coursework in chemistry, biology, and physics. Undergraduate students are advised to take the Medical College Admission Test in their junior or senior year.

Prospective pediatricians then need to attend 4 years of medical school. Curriculum includes basic medical sciences like human anatomy, physiology, chemistry, etc., for the first three years. In the second year, medical students start to get hands-on experience with actual patients. In their fourth year, students focus on their chosen specialty.

Medical school graduates are required to attain 3 more years of residency training, the first year of which is called internship. Upon completing residency and passing a standardized national licensing exam, the student may then begin a 3 year fellowiship in their chosen pediatric specialty.

My 16 month old granddaughter isn’t talking yet is this normal
Is this normal Bamagigi (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pediatrics


text:
Talk:Occupational therapist

category
I have added healthcare occupation to the category link of occupational therapist article and removed health sciences as it is an occupation article. I have added health science category to occupational therapy article. --Vincej 15:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm still new at the wikipedia thing, is there a way of adding a category of schools that offer OT programs? --User:Aishel

State OT Associations
Is there a way of making the columns down at the bottom closer together? --aishel 22:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Redirection link
Until now the talk page for occupational therapy redirected here to the talk page of occupational therapist. I just separated the two. --aishel 01:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Different from occupational therapy
"Occupational therapy" is a term both for a therapy and a field of health practice. Currently, the Wikipedia article called occupational therapy is about the health practice, and I think that is best. This article, "occupational therapist", could be about the field of health practice and I think is intended to cover that, but is a confused article right now. At WP:MEDMOS there is a style guide for organizing articles on medical specialties and I think if this article were organized that way, this article could stand alone. Perhaps it should be renamed "field of occupational therapy". I am actually not sure how specialty fields are usually named on Wikipedia to differentiate them from the practice.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  20:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As a soon-to-be occupational therapist, I also think this article could stand alone. Just as there are separeated articles for nursing and Nurse practitioner, or physician and medecine.
 * The article "Occupational therapist" could cover the education, salaray, places of work, number of praticians, the role in the pluridiciplinary team, and much more. These sections would not be adequate in the article "occupational therapy". Dodoïste (talk) 15:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Occupational therapist


text:
Old North Church

The Old North Church (officially, Christ Church in the City of Boston), is an Episcopal mission church located in the North End neighborhood of Boston. The church, which was built in 1723, is the oldest standing church building in Boston and a National Historic Landmark.

Old North Church is famous for its role in Paul Revere's midnight ride on April 18, 1775. On that night, the church's sexton, Robert Newman hung two lanterns in the church's steeple, which alerted Revere and the other riders to British military movements prior to the Battles of Lexington and Concord, the first engagements of the American Revolutionary War.

History
Construction of the Old North Church began in April 1723, continuing throughout the year. Nine months later, the church was completed sufficiently enough for the congregation to hold and celebrate its first worship service on December 29, with only some interior finishing left to be completed. The architectural design was inspired by the works of English architect Christopher Wren, who was responsible for rebuilding London after the Great Fire. Timothy Cutler was the founding rector after serving as third rector of Yale College from 1719 to 1722. Jason Haven was called to minister, but his parishioners at the First Church and Parish in Dedham convinced him to stay.

17th century
As a port town in the 17th century, Boston played an important role in the world of Atlantic trade. Old North Church was established in 1723 and initially named 'Christ Church in the City of Boston. It was Boston's second Anglican Church and a social nexus for Boston's younger merchants and privateers. The older Anglican Church, King's Chapel, was a long-time favorite of Boston's wealthy elite. The esteemed status of the King's Chapel and its rapidly increasing membership, made it difficult for the younger, less wealthy merchants of Boston to participate in the congregation and signal their status in order to create these necessary social networks of exchange. Therefore, the Old North fulfilled that social function, supplying merchants and ship captains with a religious common ground to build their inter-Atlantic trust upon.

Evidence from the trial of a 1743 mutiny aboard the Rising Sun, a merchant ship, revealed some of Boston's merchants to be involved in the operations of a smuggling ring organized by Old North donor Gedney Clark, who resided in Barbados though he was a MA-born merchant.

Merchants of Boston would trade goods and traffic enslaved African peoples throughout the Caribbean in exchange for cacao from the Dutch colony, Suriname. From Suriname, the cacao would be transferred to the British colony of Barbados. Laundering the cacao through Barbados was a means to make it a "British" product, since British subjects were not permitted to trade outside the British Empire, which allowed merchants to re-export the cacao to London, with a fraction being smuggled back to Boston.

18th century
Clark and Peter Faneuil each donated 100 pounds for the creation of Old North Church, representing the two largest contributions for the purchase of the church's bells. The two Old North members aboard the Rising Sun, Captain Newark Jackson and the merchant George Ledain, did not survive the mutiny. They were pew owners who made donations to fund the first steeple at Old North.

Historian Jared Ross Hardesty characterized the Church's role within the greater Atlantic world and in Boston: "Much like they laundered cacao through Barbados to make it a 'legal' commodity, the men laundered their reputations through Old North, signaling that they were upstanding men of commerce who gave back to the community that supported their activities."

Logwood was another product that played a significant role in the church's history. Logwood was sought after for its purple-red hue, becoming popular as a base for stable black and deep purple dyes for fabric, leather, etc. It can only be grown in the Yucatan Peninsula, and was exported out of present-day Belize, from what was then known as the "Bay of Honduras." Before the 1720s, logwood was exported to England through Jamaica, but after 1720 it was exported to New England in order to be re-exported once again out of Boston and Newport, RI to England. Logwood quickly became one of the primary trade goods of the Americas at the time, second only to tobacco.

Like cacao, logwood was a product of the enslaved Black and Indigenous people whose labor made it an accessible commodity. With many Boston merchants profiting off of their participation in the logwood trade, a group of traders called the "Gentlemen of the Bay of Honduras" donated several loads of logwood to the Old North Church in 1727.

Their donation would largely fund the construction of the church's first steeple. "The Bay Pew," stylized in honor of the Gentlemen of the Bay of Honduras, stands at the front of the Old North Church today as the only remaining decorated pew in the church. Though the "Bay Pew" decor visitors see when they come to Old North today is not the original, the furnishing and fabric that adorn the pew demonstrate how some pew owners may have decorated their box pews.

Slavery
Slavery existed in the New England colonies as early as the 1630s. Indian wars of the 17th century, including the Pequot War and King Philip's War, resulted in the capture of indigenous prisoners of war, who were sold to the West Indies or other parts of the Caribbean in exchange for enslaved Africans. As one arm of the Atlantic Triangle Exchange, enslaved Africans were transported from the West Indies and Caribbean to the Thirteen Colonies on the Atlantic Coast. Most ended up in plantation economies of the South, but some were taken to northern hubs of commerce, such as Boston, which was then under European colonial rule and had a long historical association with African slavery. In the 18th century, slaves in Boston were the descendants of this small population of enslaved Africans that ended up in the New England Colonies.

Modern estimates suggest that enslaved Black African people made up 10-15% of Boston's 18th century population. Additionally, there were many forms of "unfreedom" that confined Black and Indigenous peoples and poor white Europeans. Until slavery was abolished in Massachusetts in 1783, it was commonplace for wealthy families in and around Boston to enslave Black and Indigenous peoples as supplemental to household labor. Many of Old North's members enslaved people, or profited off of their involvement in enterprises dependent on enslaved labor. Church records document the baptisms, marriages, and funerals of free and enslaved Black and Indigenous people.

The Old North Church's first rector, Timothy Cutler, was among those counted as enslavers. He enslaved a woman named Ann in his home. Cutler was a missionary of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (SPG), tasked with converting enslaved Black and Indigenous peoples in the area. The SPG was a pro-slavery organization that owned the Codrington Plantation in Barbados.

Sanctuary and Upper Gallery
Old North Church's sanctuary was opened to the public in December 1723, with minimal work and plastering left to be completed. The box pews in the sanctuary would have cost an initial 30 pounds, but owners were also expected to pay an annual tax and make weekly contributions. If owners fell behind on their weekly contributions, the church reserved the right to sell their pew. Owning a pew made those owner's church proprietors and gave them a vote in all church matters. The church also had two pews in the back of the center aisle designated for "Wardens and Strangers" possibly to entice non-members to join the congregation.

The brass chandeliers were obtained in 1723. The current organ was installed in 1759 and built by Thomas Johnston of Boston. It took the place of a previous organ obtained in 1736. The four angels surrounding the organ were donated by Captain Thomas Gruchy, owner of pew #25, in 1746 after he captured them from a French ship during King George's War.

In 1726, the vestry voted to pay Thomas Bennet 70 pounds for building 24 pews in the North and South Galleries upstairs, in addition to 86 benches along the back walls. This seating would have been for people of lesser means, children under the age of 12, and Black and Indigenous church members.

The Upper Gallery housed the only discounted box pews in Old North. They cost about 20 pounds each, with families sometimes sharing a pew in order to make the cost more affordable. Congregants seated in the gallery could have been free, enslaved, or indentured Black people, Indigenous peoples, or those who couldn't afford to purchase a pew below. Enslaved people were expected to be baptized and were required to attend church with their enslavers. They could not sit amongst their enslavers and sat in the gallery instead. Sermons were often difficult to hear from up there, and its position made it the coldest area of the church in the winter and the hottest in the summer. There are several reasons Black and Indigenous people may have worshiped at Old North Church; they may have been forced to attend by an enslaver or employer, they may have sought the social currency an Anglican church membership accorded, or they may have chosen to attend for their own spiritual purposes. They endured uncomfortable and inequitable conditions for a multitude of reasons, most of which were necessary to their survival in colonial-era Boston.

American Revolution

In April 1775, Paul Revere told three patriots in Boston to hang two lanterns in the steeple. These men were the church sexton Robert Newman and Captain John Pulling Jr., who historian David Hackett Fischer suggests each carried one lantern up to the steeple along with Thomas Bernard, who stood watch for British troops outside the church. The lanterns were displayed to send a warning to Charlestown patriots across the Charles River about the movements of the British Army. Revere and William Dawes later delivered the same message in person to patriots in Lexington, but there was a quicker way to inform the backup riders in Charlestown about the movements of the British; these backup riders, in turn, delivered the warning message to Lexington and Concord in case Revere and Dawes were arrested on the way.

The lanterns were hung for just under a minute to avoid catching the eyes of the British troops occupying Boston, but this was long enough for the message to be received in Charlestown. The militia waiting across the river had been told to look for the signal lanterns, and were prepared to act as soon as they saw them.

The meaning of two lanterns has been memorized by countless American schoolchildren. "One if by land, and two if by sea" is from Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's 1860 poem "Paul Revere's Ride". One lantern was to notify Charlestown that the British Army would march over Boston Neck and the Great Bridge, and two were to notify them that the troops were taking boats across the Charles River to land near the Phips farm on Lechmere Point in Cambridge (the British Army would take the "sea" route; thus, two lanterns were hung). After receiving the signal, the Charlestown Patriots sent out a rider to Lexington, but this rider did not reach his destination and his identity has disappeared from history, having possibly been captured by a British patrol.

But the warning was delivered miles away to dozens of towns, first by Revere and Dawes on horses, and then by other men on horses and men who rang church bells and town bells, beat drums, and shot off warning guns. The current status of the lanterns is not entirely clear; one is said to be in the hands of a private collector, another was broken during a tour, and yet another is on display at the Concord Museum.

Post-American Revolution
Between 1806 and 1912, the box pews were replaced with slip pews to accommodate the growing congregation, passing through the center aisle seen today. The pews in the sanctuary were restored in 1912, with some of the original doors, hinges, and paneling from 1723. They are reported to be numbered the same way they were in 1731.

From 1831 to 1912, a third level to the gallery was added to the West wall of the church on each side of the organ. This gallery was built by Thomas Clark for the children attending the 19th century Sunday School.

In 1806, the box pews were deconstructed and replaced with slip pews, commonly seen in churches today, to allow for more congregants to attend services. Slip pews were still purchased up until the restoration of 1912. The slip pews were replaced with box pews, and those families who wished to remain pew owners were grandfathered in to do so. After 1912, the Old North Church became an open congregation and seating was open to the public on a first-come, first-served basis.

1912 Restoration
In the Spring of 1912, the Old North Church underwent a reconstruction to align more with the simple Puritan style of other churches in early MA history. The intent was to restore the church to how the Founding Fathers would have seen it, mistakenly assuming it adhered to the plain Puritan style popular in the era.

Under the direction of architects R. Clipson Sturgis and Henry C. Ross, the original floor timbers and gallery stairs were replaced. The box pews, which had been deconstructed to make room for slip pews in 1806, were reconstructed along with the raised pulpit. The interior woodwork was "incorrectly painted white, rather than in the rich variety of colors that have been described in early texts of the church."

The church re-opened December 29, 1912 (the 189th anniversary of its first service) to showcase its restoration. Theodore Roosevelt was in attendance, sitting in pew #25.

The Steeples
Old North Church's steeple is famous for the role it played in Paul Revere's April 18, 1775, lantern signal to warn militias in Charlestown that the British were coming, launching the American Revolution. For this, Old North's steeple has become an iconic symbol of liberty in the U.S.

While the 1727 load of logwood donated by the "Gentlemen of the Bay of Honduras" was a substantial contribution to the funds needed for the first steeple, in 1737 Old North Church leaders began a subscription campaign to collect the remaining funds needed to construct the first spire. In 1740, the spire, the design for which was attributed to William Price, was finished and hoisted atop Old North's tower. The golden weathervane crafted by Shem Drowne was fixed to the top, making Old North Church the tallest structure in Boston. A young Paul Revere served as a bell-ringer at Old North. It would be this steeple that he would incorporate into his 1775 plan to signal that the British were marching "by sea" across the Charles River.

The original steeple of the Old North Church was destroyed by the 1804 New England hurricane. In October 1804, a "very violent gale" blew the wooden spire from Old North's tower, destroying a house below it. Two years later, enough funds had been raised and a newly constructed spire was hoisted to the top once again in 1806. This replacement steeple's design was based on drawings from Charles Bulfinch.

The replacement steeple was toppled by Hurricane Carol on August 31, 1954. Hurricane Carol tore down the second spire, sending it crashing onto Salem Street and Hull Street, with minimal damage done to a building across the street. This time, the congregation launched a national fundraising campaign. In October 1955, the third spire was completed, it replicated the first original steeple and was fixed with steel reinforcements to prevent another disaster. Drowne's original weathervane, which was curiously "borrowed" by someone in the North End after the steeple came down the previous year, was restored atop the steeple. This is the steeple visitors to the Old North Church will see today.

The church is now 174 feet tall.

Bells
Eight change ringing bells (tenor: in F) at Old North Church were cast by Abel Rudhall (Rudhall of Gloucester) in Gloucester, England, in 1744 and hung in 1745. One bell has the inscription: "We are the first ring of bells cast for the British Empire in North America, A.R. 1744." The bells were restored in 1894 and in 1975. They are maintained and rung regularly by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Guild of Bellringers.

The Crypt
In 2009, an archeologist began examining the estimated 1,100 bodies buried in 37 tombs in the basement. The crypt was in use between 1732 and 1860, and each tomb is sealed with a wooden or slate door, with many doors covered over by plaster as ordered by the city of Boston in the 1850s.

Notable burials include founding rector the Rev. Timothy Cutler and his wife, who are buried under the altar together. Other notable figures buried under the church include British Marine Major John Pitcairn, who died due to injuries received at the Battle of Bunker Hill and was entombed along with many other soldiers killed in this battle. Captain Samuel Nicholson of the USS Constitution is also buried in the crypt. A behind the scenes tour run by the church takes tourists down into the crypt, as well as up to the bell-ringing chamber.

Clough House
Sitting behind the Old North Church on Unity Street, the Clough House is a historic building, serving multiple purposes for the Old North Historic Site. Ebenezer Clough, a master brick mason, built this house on pastureland around 1715. He went on to contribute his masonry skills to the construction of the Old North Church in 1723.

The Clough House is one of three remaining brick structures that date to the first decades of the 1700s in Boston. Today, the Clough House functions as an exhibit, gallery, and office space; housing the Printing Office of Edes and Gill and the Heritage Goods and Gifts shop.

Old North Church gift shop
Built in 1918, this building originally functioned as a Waldensian chapel for Italian immigrants in the North End. In 1914, Old North's rector, William Dewart, realized he had the opportunity, as a fellow Protestant, to support these newcomers to Boston. Dewart made the Old North Church available for their worship on Sunday afternoons, arranging for the minister, Henry Sartorio, to give services in their native language, Italian. Cecelia Frances Lincoln of Brookline offered to help pay for a chapel if Old North would provide the land upon which to build it. On Thanksgiving Day, 1918, the chapel of St. Francis Assisi was dedicated. However, restrictions on immigration from Italy, coupled with the shifting of people living in the city to the suburbs, resulted in a rapidly eroding congregation by 1929. By the 1950s the chapel was no longer in use.

Around this time, interest in the Old North Church as a historic site was taking off, (aligning with national calls to restore the steeple in 1954) leading Old North to purchase the building and convert it to a museum and retail space. The museum aspect of the building was phased out, but the building remains Old North Church's gift shop today.

Multiple architectural details remain intact; the cross adorning the roof, the haloed figures carved into the pillars, and the stone lions that sit on either side of the steps are all a part of the original architecture, observable to visitors today. For this history, the gift shop is on the National Register of Historic Places.

19th Century
Where the Parish House stands, there once was the Salem Street Academy, a Sunday school for children. Old North Church was part-owner of this school that opened on June 4, 1815. Excerpts from an 1830 report on the progress of the Sunday school reveals that it served a vital purpose to the community. Some who attended realized the opportunity for child-care, providing parents with the time to attend Old North Church's services themselves. The Sunday school also presented an alternative opportunity for those with lesser means to attend a kind of church service when they did not have the "suitable" clothing required for a regular service.

Following the resignation of Rev. Asa Eaton, Reverend William Croswell became rector of Old North in 1829. In 1833, Croswell and three other Anglican ministers hosted Reverend William Levington, the third Black man to be ordained to the Episcopal Church in America, to come speak at Old North Church to raise money to fund his own church and school for free Black children in Baltimore. In 1845, Rev. Croswell became the founding minister of the Church of the Advent, the first Anglican church in Boston that did not require the purchase of pews. Croswell fulfilled this dream of his, ministering to the less fortunate, serving as rector to the Church of the Advent until his death in 1851.

U.S. Bicentennial celebration
On April 18, 1975, U.S. President Gerald Ford visited Old North Church. In his nationally televised speech, Ford said:

"Let us pray here in the Old North Church tonight that those who follow 100 years or 200 years from now may look back at us and say: We were a society which combined reason with liberty and hope with freedom. May it be said above all: We kept the faith, freedom flourished, liberty lived. These are the abiding principles of our past and the greatest promise of our future."

Following Ford's remarks, two lanterns were lit by Robert Newman Ruggles and Robert Newman Sheet, descendants of Robert Newman, who, as sexton of the Old North Church in 1775, lit the two lanterns which signaled the movement of British troops. The President then lit a third lantern, which hangs in a window of the church today.

On July 11, 1976, Queen Elizabeth II visited Boston as part of celebrations honoring the United States Bicentennial, and made reference to the aforementioned celebration events in April 1975 that followed President Ford's speech. She said: "At the Old North Church last year, your President lit a third lantern dedicated to America's third century of freedom and to renewed faith in the American ideals. May its light never be dimmed."

The Queen and Prince Philip attended a Sunday morning service at the Old North Church, sitting in front of the chancel. The Rev. Robert W. Golledge led the service and later presented the Queen with a replica of a silver chalice made by Paul Revere. The Queen was shown the iconic statue of Paul Revere by Cyrus E. Dallin near the church before departing in a motorcade to attend a function at the Old State House.

Rectors
Old North Church's first rector was Reverend Dr. Timothy Cutler. Cutler was born in Charlestown, MA in 1684 and attended Harvard College. He served as president and rector of Yale College until 1722. In 1722, Cutler notified Yale's board of trustees that he, along with others, intended to seek ordination from the Church of England, admitting their doubt about their current ordination status as they had not been ordained by a bishop- which they felt the Scriptures mandated. This controversy came to be known by Congregationalists as the Yale Apostasy. After being released from his position by Yale, Cutler was invited to Boston by the committee building the Christ Church (Old North). Cutler journeyed to England for his ordination, returning to Boston one year later with a Doctorate in Divinity from both Oxford and Cambridge Universities. Cutler was ordained as a priest and a missionary for the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. Cutler celebrated his first service at the Christ Church (Old North) on December 29, 1723. Cutler served at Old North until his death in 1765. As first rector, he is honored at Old North- entombed in the crypt, directly below the altar.

Like Timothy Cutler, Reverend Mather Byles Jr. left the Congregational ministry to be ordained as an Anglican priest. Like Cutler, Byles was an enslaver. Old North Church's records document the baptism of Byles’ enslaved servant, a man named Cato in early April 1775. Byles served the Christ Church in the City of Boston (Old North) from 1768- April 1775.

In 1774, the British Parliament closed the port of Boston, in a series of punishments under the Intolerable Acts, for the Boston Tea Party the year prior in 1773. With trade stalled, the congregation could not source the funds needed to pay Byles. However, contributing factors were complex as Byles was also a loyalist, and there were rumors circulating that he was considering serving another church. We do not know what factors ultimately motivated the congregation or Byles’ decisions, but it is documented that on April 18, 1775, Byles met with the church proprietor's and turned his keys in. Later that evening, two men, who were likely vestryman Captain John Pulling Jr. and sexton Robert Newman, climbed the steeple and held high two lanterns to signal that the British were marching to Charlestown "by sea” across the Charles River. In March 1776, Byles, his family, and likely their enslaved people, sailed to New Brunswick accompanied by fellow loyalists. The Banishment Act of 1778 named Byles as a person who was forbidden from returning to Massachusetts, “to suffer death without benefit of clergy if he should return.” The Christ Church (Old North Church) was closed, like many other Church of England congregations, until August 1778.

In the summer of 1776, Stephen Lewis sailed from England with General Burgoyne's 16th Regiment of Light Dragoons, as chaplain to the troops. The ship, troops, and Lewis were captured as prisoners of war; Lewis was held captive in the town of Boxford until 1778. In January 1778, Lewis was exchanged for a Continental Army prisoner of war and sent to New York. Before going to New York, he performed a private baptism at Christ Church (Old North), which had been closed since 1775. In July 1778, Lewis appealed to his captors saying he wished to sever his connection to the British government and wished to become, instead, a subject of Massachusetts. Records document that Lewis became the rector of Christ Church in August 1778, immediately resuming services thereafter. Lewis traveled to churches lacking a permanent clergy, to minister to the needs of their congregants, as most Anglican priests left Boston in 1776. During this time, prayers offered during service reflected the political temperaments of the era, no longer offering prayers for the King and royal family, as American Anglican churches moved away from loyalty to the King as head of the Church of England. Lewis served as rector of Christ Church (Old North) until 1784, when he moved to South Carolina. He died in 1790.

Other Worshippers
Recent research bridges the historical gap between the surplus of knowledge we have about wealthy and white Old North Church members, and the understudied experiences of Black and Indigenous congregants. Research on the Humphries family not only shines a light on their specific experiences within the congregation, but also serves as a representative archival presence that can inform us about the lives of other Black congregants.

John and Elizabeth Humphries were a free Black couple who first appeared in Old North's records in March 1748 with the baptism of their daughter, Deborah. Over the course of the next four years, John and Elizabeth baptized seven more children: Robert, Richard, James, Catherine, Elizabeth, Thomas, and Ruth. Five of the Humphries children were baptized on the same day. There was a funeral service for one of their daughters a few days after she had been baptized, and John died shortly after the baptism of their last child in 1751. Their family name was occasionally present on Old North Church's alms list: a list of families that received small donations from the church. After the death of John, three of their children were indentured out to Alexander Chamberlain, a sailmaker and prominent Old North member, in 1756 and 1757.Their youngest child, Ruth, who was just six at the time, was contracted to serve an indenture for twelve years.

A notice of death for an Indigenous woman named Jerusha Will, revealed that she had been taken in by the Humphries in 1743. She was baptized at Old North Church on May 9, 1743, passing away only a few days later, with orders being given to bury her on May 21 by Captain Steel to the "Overseers of the Poor."

In October 1765, an "Elizabeth Humphries" appears in Old North Church's marriage records, marrying an enslaved man named Robert Hunter. It cannot be known if Elizabeth was the mother or daughter. Their marriage is noteworthy because Elizabeth was a free woman marrying Robert, an enslaved man. Unlike in England, in the colonies, a child's status was dependent on that of their mother. In this unfree society, Elizabeth and Robert were ensuring their children would be born as legally free people.

The other "Old North"
Before the construction of the "Old North Church" (Christ Church, Boston), there was another church in Boston called the "Old North" (Meetinghouse). This Congregationalist meeting house was founded in North Square, across the street from what is now called "Paul Revere's house". This church was once pastored by the Rev. Cotton Mather, the minister now known largely for his involvement in the Salem witch trials.

Present-day
Old North Church is today one of four church sites among the 16 stops on the Freedom Trail. It is an active congregation of the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts with a Sunday morning service at 11 a.m. The current vicar is the Rev. Dr. Matthew Cadwell, who has served since November 2020.

Research
From June 2022-2023, Old North Illuminated, the nonprofit that runs the historic site, hired Dr. Jaimie D. Crumley, as a Research Fellow to research the experiences of Black and Indigenous peoples associated with the Old North Church in the 18th and 19th centuries. Dr. Jaimie D. Crumley is an intellectual historian of race, gender, and religion in 18th and 19th century New England. Dr. Crumley's research has enriched interpretation across the historic site, creating a video series filmed within the church, and generating new historical content that has been included on the new audio guides now available onsite.

Crumley's online video series is entitled Illuminating the Unseen. In the series, Crumley walks you through her sources and methods as she shines a light on the stories of some of the Black and Indigenous Bostonians who have affiliated with Old North and the North End neighborhood throughout its storied history. Dr. Crumley analyzes church records and other archival sources that are as varied as pew deeds, wills, letters, Books of Common Prayer, and newspaper articles with an eye toward the people who might be overlooked in the dominant story the source tells.

Illuminating the Unseen consists of eight episodes:

"Race and Evangelism in the Church of England"

"Indigenous Women at Old North Church in the British Colonial Period"

"Old North and Enslaved People in the British Colonial Period"

"The Social Construction of Race in Early Massachusetts History"

"Old North and Black Freedom"

"John Eliot and the Conversion of Native Peoples in Boston's North End"

"Paul Revere's Ride and the Mark of Urban Slavery"

"People of Color as Children and Elders in 18th and 19th Century Boston"

See the link at the bottom of the page for more information.

Archives
Old North's church records are held by the Massachusetts Historical Society. They are available for researchers to view by appointment.

In Popular culture
The Old North Church makes an appearance in the post-apocalyptic video game Fallout 4, serving as the headquarters for one of the game's main four factions, the Railroad. It became their headquarters after their old base of operations, a pre-war bunker used by the government called the Switchboard, was raided by the Institute. The player is able to explore the crypts beneath the church and access the hidden door that leads to the Railroad's headquarters by imputing a password using the correct letters on a spinning wheel.

It was also featured at the end of the Disney film National Treasure when Sean Bean’s character and his men try to break in and the police and FBI promptly arrive and arrest him and his goons.

title: Old North Church


text:
Talk:Vasculitis

Would
Would atherosclerosis qualify as a vasculitis ? There is a lot of inflammation, too. PFHLai 13:13, 2004 May 20 (UTC)

 * Okay, please make it more specific. Atherosclerosis is not considered vasculitis, really... JFW | T@lk  18:40, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Atherosclerosis vs Vasculitis
Frankly, Dr. Wolff, I don't know much about Atherosclerosis or Vasculitis. I was hoping to find out their differences from this page on Vasculitis, or the one on Atherosclerosis. Based on what I have read so far, I am under the impression that: Am I correct ? Should atherosclerosis be considered a special case of slow-progressing vasculitis that is induced/accelerated by fatty deposits in the vessel wall ? Can vasculitic lesions in at a young age become or induce atherosclerotic lesions later in life ? I am looking forward to reading more on vasculitis as your page on this disease grows. Thank you. PFHLai 03:36, 2004 May 21 (UTC)
 * 1) vasculitis is rare, whereas a person without atherosclerosis is more rare
 * 2) endothelial dysfunction does not seem to be involved in vasculitis, whereas atherosclerosis and endothelial dysfunction have a "chicken-&-egg" relationship -- no one knows which one starts first ...
 * 3) fatty deposits in all atherosclerotic lesions, but not in vasculitis
 * 4) vasculitis is severe and acute, but can be cured, whereas atherosclerosis progresses silently, is chronic and is irreversible.
 * 5) the odd patient with vasculitis seeks medical attention for the inflammation and the associated pain and fever, whereas patients with atherosclerosis need medical attention for serious problems secondary to the lesion: stroke, chest pain due to cardiac insufficiency, etc. (often too late)

 * Patrick, most of this stuff is still quite new for me, and I'm learning about vasculitis by working on this stuff. I can therefore not really answer your questions.
 * Still, it appears that vasculitis and atherosclerosis are two different processes which overlap. Vasculitis patients do suffer from accelerated atherosclerosis (the typical lupus patient dies vascularily) and there are plenty of theories that claim atherosclerosis is a chlamydial disease. I wouldn't doubt for a moment that vasculitis causes endothelial dysfunction.
 * A review we might both have to read is: Juvonen T, Juvonen J, Savolainen MJ. Is vasculitis a significant component of atherosclerosis? Curr Opin Rheumatol 1999 Jan;11:3-10, PMID [9894624.
 * I hope we can clarify this together. I find wiki-editing an educational experience for reasons like these! JFW | T@lk  09:14, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, yes, Dr. Wolff, wiki-editing has been a very good educational experience for me, too. But I have been spending more time reading than typing.  Let me read more and I'll see what I can add.
 * I agree that vasculitis and atherosclerosis are two different processes which overlap. An atherosclerotic lesion is indeed a blood vessel with inflammation, i.e. 'vascul' + 'itis'.  Before I saw your page on vasculitis, vasculitis and atherosclerosis were the same thing to me !  I am still under the impression that atherosclerosis is a slow-progressing form of vasculitis involving lipid deposits in the vessel wall.  I don't know much about the chlamydia hypothesis, but I think any significant damage to the endothelium, such as a chlamydia infection in the vessel wall, may lead to atherosclerosis.  I'd better read more ...
 * Thank you for the reference by Juvonen et al..
 * PFHLai 17:10, 2004 May 21 (UTC)

 * Vasculitis is definitely a distinct process, and the main question (addressed by Juvonen et al and in lots of other work) and whether atherosclerosis is a form of vasculitis or not. The nomenclature is confusing, of course there is inflammation of the vessel wall in atherosclerosis... Interestingly, a recent clinical trial failed to prove effectiveness of antichlamydial antibiotics in atherosclerosis patients... JFW | T@lk  10:22, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Names of more people who died from Vasculitis needed
Can anyone think of anyone other than Janet Leigh who have died from any type of Vasculitis? --198.164.135.37 12:42, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I dispute the need for such a list. We don't list all people who have died from a myocardial infarction (heart attack), or do we? Vasculitis is quite an esoteric type of diseases, and is rarely mentioned as a cause of death in obituaries so as not to confuse the readership.
 * As far as I'm concerned, Janet Leigh does not need to be mentioned on this page. JFW | T@lk  20:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Why do we need such a list on any disease page anyways? Andrewr47 01:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My Child Ryvor Nathon Loyd Anderson May 25 1996 - Dec 3 2006 Passed away At Childrens Hospital in Seattle Washington, due to a condition called Central nervous System Vasculitis of Childhood. The Center for Disease Control, Was the Authority in Conjunction with the King County Medical Examiner. Why the need for names? I found out my son is one of less than 25 in the world. This disease is only found through Autopsy or Brain Biopsy. His symptoms throughout life mimicked And included Cerebral Palsy, Headaches, No weight gain, muscle aches, and finally personality change. His IQ on RECORD is in math 2Xs national average in 2006. No intelligence change was apparent. My child exhibited a early learner attitude born early, and to a prednisone dependent asthmatic mother; born approximately 33 weeks due to increased heartrate. The end result is He appeared to have a stomach flu, and never appeared to regain full consciousness, however motor control allowed for moving him down the hall, an hour later my child became rigid, and was rushed to ER in Everett WA, Transferred To Childrens at Sand Point or Seattle WA. I witnessed swelling then of his eyes, remaining fixed, I held him as they unplugged the Ventilator, and as in birth delivered him into the hands of God, so to speak. I see him often. And know without a doubt one life is missed. That's why I am giving you, a name of who passed into life after death. DA_Anderson@ymail.com have a good day  —Preceding unsigned comment added by AngeliaBettina (talk • contribs) 21:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Atherosclerosis – an Inflammatory Process:
Atherosclerosis is characterized by a non-specific local inflammatory process which is accompanied by a systemic response. A number of prospective studies in initially healthy subjects and in patients with known atherosclerosis have convincingly demonstrated a strong and independent association between even slightly elevated concentrations of various systemic markers of inflammation and a number of cardiovascular events. C-reactive protein (CRP), the classical acute phase protein, seems to be the marker of choice in this clinical situation. The measurement procedure is well standardized and automated, high-sensitivity assays with sufficient precision are available. In addition, recent research has suggested that CRP may not only be a risk marker, but may be directly involved in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis. Various lifestyle changes and pharmacological interventions are able to reduce elevated CRP concentrations. Testing the inflammation hypothesis should be of major importance in clinical research of atherosclerosis.

Deutsches Ärzteblatt 100, Ausgabe 3 vom 17.01.2003, Seite A-117 / B-108 / C-105 MEDIZIN (Germany)

G.S., MD (Germany)

 * We've discussed this before. Atherosclerosis has some things in common with "classical vasculitis", but appears to be a pathogenetically distinct entity. For one thing, the immune process alone does not account for atherosclerosis. Treatments normally used for vasculitis do not exhibit great effect on the progress of atherosclerosis and even tend to exacerbate it (would you give IV methylprednisolone to an acute case of atherosclerosis?) I don't think Wikipedia should be in the business of expousing this view where medical opinion seems to be against it. JFW | T@lk  21:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

---

OK.

We discuss this under the term (unter dem Begriff)

"Tilt-Vasculitis",
e.g. "DIV" = "Drug-induced Vasculitis" etc.: "DIV is a relatively common cause of inflammatory vasculitis. Drugs from almost every pharmacologic class have been implicated in causing vasculitis in sporadic cases. The level of certainty and quality of evidence for these associations between specific agents and vasculitis vary greatly. The clinical manifestations of DIV range from single organ involvement (most commonly, skin) to life-threatening multiorgan disease." Merkel PA / Rheum Dis Clin North Am. 2001 Nov;27(4):849-62.

or

"TOS" / Toxic-Oil-Syndrome: Spain 1981: Histopathological = a systematic, non necrotizing vasculitis..

or

TILT = Toxicant-induced Loss of Tolerance (Miller & Ashford 1996/98),

TILT-Syndrome &  Tilt-Vasculitis:

"The clinical syndromes produced by pollutants are myriad. Some are named and others are not. Discussed separately are small vessel vasculitis, large vessel vasculitis, carotid spasm, Raynaud’s disease, hypertension, specific systemic undifferentiated Tilt-hypersensitive vasculitis, Panarteriitis nodosa, Wegener’s granulomatosis, rheumatoid vasculitis, recurrent phlebitis and thrombophlebitis, thrombosis etc."

"Many necrotizing and non-necrotizing vasculitides are directly caused or closely associated with immunopathogenic mechanism and environmental triggers. It was originally thought that the mechanism most commonly associated with Vasculitis is that of the deposition of circulating immune complexes in the blood vessel walls. However, this association appears to be limited since com-plexes are not always necessary for inflammation of vessels to occur. In fact, a larger percentage of blood vessels deregulation in the hypersensitive (pseudoallergic, intolerant) patient appears to occur through non-immune mechanism." ...

G.S., MD, Germany EU

Cultural References
With respect to the "Cultural References" section of the article, my friend with vasculitis told me that the reason Dr. House refers to it a lot is because a vasculitis society paid NBC to raise awareness about the disease.

Polyarteritis Nodosa
The symptoms of Polyarteritis Nodosa listed on this page don't really match the symptoms described in the main article on Polyarteritis Nodosa... I think the diagnositc criteria listed here are probably more accurate, maybe this needs adding to the other page?

way too technical
this really really needs to be made more accessible. it reads like something out of medical school rather than a standard wikipedia article. I wouldn't doubt the information as it certainly does sound authoritative and correct when presented like this... however, I don't think most people will really be able to understand it! it's got way too much medical jargon and the writing style is choppy.

 * I tend to agree. I clicked on Leukocyte and was redirected to White blood cell. Wikipedia is NOT a resource for medical students. I hope! 202.7.183.131 (talk) 12:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Harold Ramis & autoimmune inflammatory vasculitis
According to this Chicago Tribune article, http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-harold-ramis-dead-20140224,0,2259309.story, Mr Ramis died of "autoimmune inflammatory vasculitis". Is this one of the vasculitis conditions covered by the article, though I don't find the term there. In fact, no "autoimmune" anything is mentioned. As people become aware of his death, more will probably browser-search the term and expect WP to address it. Is there another article that covers it that I cannot find by searching WP? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 19:05, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposed changes
I wanted to discuss this before I make any major edits as this is a very popular page. I recently had a discussion on the medicine wikiproject regarding better classifications of the different types of vasculitis. I propose that we make a seprate section for classification as it's more relevant to this topic. I've also reformatted the classification to fit the most recent guidelines. My sandbox can be viewed here if anyone has any feedback. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 17:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Support, looks very organized and it matches with the (good) source used. I would suggest expanding the Secondary Vasculitis section, perhaps with a bulleted list of possible causes. The 2012 source, at the least, lists out some of those causes. Just-a-can-of-beans (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I'll do some work on the secondary vasculitis section. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vasculitis


text:
Talk:Endocrinology

Ehhh?
Ehhh?

What are the quotes around:

“Coordinating systems to regulate and integrate the function of differentiating cells.”

for? Is something being quoted that should be cited? thats all.

While trying not to be deliberately picky...but isn't Cushing's Disease the pituitary form while Cushing's Syndrome covers the adrenal and ectopic forms of the disease? Ianmc 22:23, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Cush. synd is also the iatrogenic form. Is your point that Cush disease is listed twice? I fixed it. I havent looked at the list for a while. It is very incomplete, and many conditions could logically be put in a couple of categories. One could just copy the contents page of an endocrine textbook here but none of have bothered. Alteripse 22:37, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * No I am of the understanding that Cushing's Syndrome covers any form of ACTH driven or autonomous production of cortisol whereas Cushing's Disease is specifically that of an ACTH-secreting piuitary adenoma. Therefore Cushing's Disease shouldn't be listed as an adrenal endocrine disorder. I just thought it would be polite to ask before I altered the listing, I am aware that there is a medical group which looks after these pages--Ianmc 19:16, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * There are over a dozen causes of endogenous Cushing syndrome. You are correct that the term Cushing's disease is applied primarily to pituitary-ACTH-driven hypercortisolism (of which there are a couple of types). If the ACTH is suppressed or the ACTH is being secreted by a tumor outside the pituitary, we do not call it Cushing disease. However, not all cases of pituitary ACTH excess will have an identifiable tumor of the pituitary. In a minority the ACTH may be driven by hypothalamic CRH or even a CRH-secreting tumor. It's perfectly reasonable to describe Cushing disease as usually a pituitary disease, and in many textbooks, it is covered in the pituitary chapter. Alternatively, in some textbooks, it is described in the adrenal chapter among other causes of cortisol excess. In an online textbook like [www.endotext.org], the same chapter is listed both as a subsection of the pituitary disease chapter and a subsection of the adrenal disease chapter. Feel free to move it around or duplicate it. As I said, this is sort of a haphazard disease list, with many things missing, and several of the conditions could arguably be listed in a different category or even in several categories. If you are taxonomically or nosologically inclined, we'd welcome a more comprehensive list of endocrine diseases than we have here-- bracket them and we'll quickly know what we have and what remains to be written. Don't take my reply as negative; thanks for the interest. Alteripse 20:37, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I added a link to Gender identity disorder to the list of "diseases". Although it isn't technically caused by a hormonal imbalance, hormone treatment is one of the primary methods used to treat transexuals. -- Marumari 20:06, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Chapter additions
Hi,

I've added a couple of chapters from my dissertation to this article, I hope no-one minds.

I kinda figured I might get a bit of free proof-reading! :)

Readability
"Bayliss and Starling (1902) first conclusively demonstrated the existence of hormones by observing that that acid instilled into the duodenum stimulated secretion by the pancreas, despite the fact that both organs were denervated and, further to this, that the action could be replicated by the intravenous injection of an extract of jejunal mucosa."

The forgoing sentence, like many that follow it, can present a substantial challenge for the lay reader. Consider the following suggestions to make it more readable.

Add first names to Bayliss and Starling. Where were they working? Had the existence of hormones been theorized before? If so, the paragraph could start something like, "Though scientist had theorized the existence of hormones for years, it was not until [year] that their existence was conclusively demonstrated by [Name] Bayliss and [Name] Starling. Working at [institution where they worked], they observed..." It would also help to explain the significance of the organs being denervated. It might be obvious to someone familiar with the field, but is anything but for those outside medicine. Just some idea. Martschink

I agree. Please do. And welcome. alteripse 01:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Many apologies... I made that part deliberately concise in order to impress my tutor. I should have realised that it would have the opposite effect on everyone else... hope the correction makes it easier...

Diabetologist
"Endocrinologists treat disorders of the pituitary, ...and diabetes (although more commonly it is a diabetologist),"

I have been a type 1 diabetic for ten years and have never heard of a diabetologist. So while it is obviously true that diabetologists are specialists on diabetes, they do not treat diabetes more commonly than endocrinologists do. ErinOConnor 2 February 2005
 * You are correct, in many parts of the world, including North America, far more diabetes specialists are formally endocrinologists than diabetologists. alteripse 01:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Splitting-out the "diseases" section of the article
I think it makes sense to split-out the diseases section into a separate article called endocrine disorders or endocrine disorder or endocrine disease or endocrine diseases. Any thoughts?
 * Support. As per discussion on Talk:Rickets. Nephron T|C 00:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Arcadian 18:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Could use a research section in the work section.
I think a section in the work section describing what kind of research endocrinologists do would be a great addition. I'm sure I could include diabetes research, cancer research, maybe even some of the stress axis work, but I wouldn't really know what I'm talking about. Rhetth 23:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Could use some proof reading
Roughly 7,000 to 80,000 endocrinologists in the USA? That's a big range... guessing it is either 7,000 to 8,000, or 70,000 to 80,000. Anyone know which is right? 59.167.149.146 (talk) 02:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

 * it doesn't say in the BLS 2601:645:100:8380:0:0:0:F2C1 (talk) 06:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Image needs replacement
Hello all...

An image used in the article, specifically Image:Amine hormones, norepinephrine and triiodothryonine.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 21:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Burden of disease
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/6/1853 is a review of endocrine disease in the USA, at least the 54 ones with public health significance. Can I think of 54 endocrine diseases of public health significance? Let's see.... JFW | T@lk  10:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Misuse of sources
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Please help by viewing the entry for this article shown at the cleanup page, and check the edits to ensure that any claims are valid, and that any references do in fact verify what is claimed.

I searched the page history, and found 4 edits by Jagged 85 (for example, see this edits). Tobby72 (talk) 13:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

is the first photo an advertisement?
In its description, it links to "see a full animation of this diagram" or something like that. But when you click on the link, it goes to the photo author's website which requires a login to see the animation. 2601:645:100:8380:0:0:0:F2C1 (talk) 06:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Endocrinology


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anchor spreadable

 * Article about a not especially noteworthy diary product. Reads like an add: "Anchor is also synonymous with great cheese and delicious, creamy butter". Thue 13:26, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Have a sense of humour, Thue! What's not noteworthy to you may be of interest to someone else. While the written style was not perhaps to your taste, that is absolutely no reason to suggest it should be deleted. MattRevell 14:43, 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's noteworthy enough IMO. Articles that read like add need NPOVing not deleting. theresa knott 13:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Have a heart... I think this article provides an interesting view to spreading butter Wilbowonka 15:02, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * LOL! I've never heard of the stuff, but then again, I don't live in Great Britain.  Seems noteworthy enough for a keeper. - Lucky 6.9 16:47, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable enuf, and WP is not a product catalog. Searching the first 10 pages of the Google WP cache, I found no other articles about specific brands of butter, and we're going to set a precendent with the #5 brand in a relatively small market? To me this seems comparable to the individual SoBe flavor articles previously deleted. If we include the top 5 brands in every product category, in every country, our article to editor ratio will be so out of whack as to be unmanagable. Niteowlneils 20:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Ouch, good point. If it isn't too late, I'd like to change my vote to delete based on reasons just stated. - Lucky 6.9 21:03, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * It's only too late once a decision has been made. That won't be for another 4+ days. -- Cyrius|&#9998 02:49, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete per Niteowlneils arguments. Rossami 21:53, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've seen the wobbly cow ads before. But there's certainly no need to have a product page, if the company that makes it, doesn't have page yet. Rhymeless 02:25, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable butter brand. -- Cyrius|&#9998 02:49, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Agreed w/ Niteowlneils. Wile E. Heresiarch 03:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Anchor do make other products, such as cream and cheese. How about making a page about Anchor and merge this into the article? Krik 12:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep until/unless page on company is created, then merge. Everyking 15:45, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment. OK, I hit the red link and created a page for the company. I wasn't able to find clear info on the corporate structure and name, so maybe someone from NZ can verify whether 'Anchor brand' and 'subsidiary' are accurate/best terms. I believe it has all the relevant, non-POV content that is in the Anchor spreadable article, so that could redirect to Anchor brand, if that's the consensus. Niteowlneils 01:43, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I've moved it to Anchor Milk, as A) "anchor brand" was too generic, B) I couldn't find an authorative source for the actual company name, and C) from what I've read about it, that is the most likely term people looking for it would use. Niteowlneils 00:02, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Neurosurgery

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Billynorlin.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Questionable text
The text labeling the photograph says "neurosurgeon," however, no neurosurgeon is pictured. The caption should read something like "Neurosurgical Procedure"

The quoted text below is opinionative and unprofessional, and should not be included in this entry. As a reference, entries on other medical professions, such as urology, cardiology, and cardiothoracic surgery shy away from this sort of tone.

 * "Neurosurgery is widely seen as one of the most prestigious fields in medicine. This is due to the extremely complex knowledge base required to master the field as well as the highly selective admission criteria for entry into neurosurgery residency programs. Finally, the minimal 6-7 year postgraduate training period required for neurosurgery is also among the longest and most challenging of any medical specialty."

Linguadue 20:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * On the other hand, Americans refer to "brain surgeons" as one of the most prestigious professional fields, requiring proverbial intelligence and skill. Please change the paragraph to adequately reflect this obvious reality, but don't just remove it. JFW | T@lk  21:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

'On the other hand, Americans refer to "brain surgeons" as one of the most prestigious professional fields...' is a notion derived from the American popular culture and wrought with sensational bias. The Anglo-American focus is further contrary to the neutral point of view, as Neurosurgery is an international field.

Readers turning to an encyclopedic entry on Neurosurgery are seeking factual, un-biased, information on the field.

'In the United Kingdom, competition is fierce for the senior house officer and specialist registrar posts leading up to a consultant qualification[1].' I did not delete this line from the article because it was referenced to a relevant and reliable source.

Wikipedia cannot be a forum to compare one medical field to all the others. I don't know one medical field that doesn't require proverbial intelligence and skill, that doesn't require an extremely complex knowledge base, and that doesn't have a long and challenging residency.

Out of curiosity, what is your specialty?

Linguadue 19:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

 * This isn't brain surgery rocket science. If the field's prestige is verifiable and notable, then it stays in.  Otherwise, it goes.  It doesn't really matter what the other specialties happen to include. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Neuropathology
The history part about neuropathology does not seem accurate and the comment about gods seems unnecessary. Shifting focus from 'the gods' to the body itself must have happened much earlier. What's more, Thomas Hodgkin was only 12 years old 1810, and this year was not mentioned in the source that this text referenced.

 * ″Pathology has been studied ever since men have decided to cut each other open and see what is inside. But only within the last few hundred years has medicine focused on a tissue- and organ-based approach to tissue disease. In 1810, Thomas Hodgkin started to look at the damaged tissue for the cause, not the gods. This was conjoined with the emergence of microscopy and started the current understanding of how the tissue of the human body is studied.″

HrEkstedt (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Quoted text
The quoted text from the "U.S. Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education," seems to be written by and for a professional audience with more than a passing acquaintance with medical terminology.

Someone should clarify terms, provide links and generally re-structure this page. I found it less than helpful in understanding the history, current state of the field and pointers to recent developments.

I have just looked up references (2) and (3) on this page and in both cases the text I have found does not seem to support the claims in the Education sections supposed to be backed by those references. Nethertheless it seems like the claims themselves aren’t incorrect. Just the references TPDKIEH (talk) 13:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Layman's definition please
The U.S. Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education definition given is aimed at graduate medical students and is rather too much for the layman. Can anyone come up with something easier to follow, but still accurate? Landolitan 15:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Salesman
I just came back from a homeschooling convention, where I met an encyclopedia salesman among the booths who claimed that he created a fictitious "brain surgery" article in Wikipedia (I guess) in order to demonstrate Wikipedia's vulnerability to error. I told him I would fix it immediately and got on wifi to do just that. But I was unable to find any obvious errors and couldn't get anything more out of him than angry looks. Is this a standard spiel among Britannica salesman? The conversation went like this:

Salesman: What's your favorite encyclopedia?

Me: Wikipedia!

Salesman: You know the "brain surgery" article? I put a completely fictitious article up there myself! Yes, I did it myself!

Me: I will fix it immediately...

Salesman:

Dbabbitt 01:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's called being a good salesman DrSatan (talk) 03:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It's called being a dickhead and getting shown up for it, in a most deserving way. Nice going Dbabbitt, stick it to the man! CybergothiChé (talk) 10:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Pediartics
Neurosurgery should also cover VP shunt as this procedure is the most common practise in children. To manage the patients with hematoma (e.g. epi/subdural) from traffic acidents occupied the most neurosurgical procedures (almost 90%). This should be mentioned as well, otherwise, this article is talking about nothing indeed. Coloane (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Be bold -- if you can cite reliable, verifiable sources for those items, be bold and add them. - Ageekgal (talk) 05:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

PNS
the first sentense may have problem. PNS hasn't much neurosurigcal significance. Mostly these cases are the responsbilities for general surgeons even it is related to nervous system. Coloane (talk) 00:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

lack diagnostic info + GCS
this article should create a section for diagnostic procedure specifically for neurosurgery(brain surgery). Comprehensive examination by CT scan should be mentioned from the superficial cortical area to limbic system. Plus scores from the GCS should be mentioned in order to figure out the situation of patients before/after surgical operation. Without this info, this article is talking about nothing. Coloane (talk) 00:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

In the United States there are only about 3,000 neurosurgeons. and? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.132.232 (talk) 08:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Source of history
Good article here that would be useful incorporated into the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/health/24brain.html

 * -- John Broughton (♫♫) 15:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Not mentioning Professor Gazi Yasargil, the founder of Microneurosurgery in the 'SEE ALSO' section is vandalism itself. Please do not delete this edit without giving any reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zartus (talk • contribs) 17:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I deleted the history page as it is a joke right now. There is no mention of any surgeries done by the greeks, or the Indians in the BC era. Furthermore, the two sentences do not constitute creating an independent heading... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.99.166 (talk) 22:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the user "Zartus", about deleting the name of Gazi Yasargil. Somebody deleted his name again. This is vandalism. Currently I undid this change, but probably it will be deleted again by some people who have inferiority complex.

An advice to them please look at the abstract of the article on http://journals.lww.com/neurosurgery/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=1999&issue=11000&article=00010&type=abstract

And an advice to the moderators, please make this article semi-protected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.54.71.130 (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm considering adding to the history section as part of a course project. I've found three sources so far that seem to be promising. I'd like to expand on the ancient Germanic practice of neurosurgery as well, and I have several high-quality photographs depicting a skull that was operated on from this time period. --Billynorlin (talk) 04:31, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

"Vascular and endovascular surgery" a section of neurosurgery?
While i recognize that neuro intervnetionalists do things like coil cerebral aneurysms, vascular and endovascular surgery is also its own specialty separate from neurosurg. I fell like there should be a comment about that at least here if it is mentioned.

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Proposed additions
I'm wanting to add this to the history of neurosurgery section: Neurosurgery in the Neolithic Age In 1910, Paul Berger excavated underneath a Bronze age hearth near Halle, Germany, where he unearthed human remains that showed crude surgical openings in the skull. The remains were dated to between 2700 – 2200 BCE. The skull had two trephinations and these operations were performed at different times. Trephinations are crude surgical holes made through either scraping, cutting, or drilling away the layers of bone, and great care is taken to preserve the outermost lining of the brain, the dura mater. Further analysis of the bones concluded that the areas around the holes began to heal, which suggests that this person survived for months to years after the trephinations. Researchers hypothesize that since certain regions contained more skulls with trephinations, this practice may be rooted in superstitious beliefs. Trephinations were conducted “with rudimental anesthetic, antiseptic, and technological aids.” Alfieri, Alex, et al. "The Woman of Pritschoena: An Example of the German Neolithic Neurosurgery in Saxony-Anhalt." Journal of the History of the Neurosciences, vol. 21, no. 2, 2012, pp. 139-146. EBSCOhost, libraries.ou.edu/access.aspx?url=http://search.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.lib.ou.edu/login.aspx?direct=true&db=htm&AN=XISI1211249-H&site=ehost-live. Alfieri, Alex, Christian Strauss, Harald Meller, Bettina Stoll-Tucker, Pawel Tacik, and Silvio Brandt. 2012. "The Woman of Pritschoena: An Example of the German Neolithic Neurosurgery in Saxony-Anhalt." Journal Of The History Of The Neurosciences 21, no. 2: 139-146. History of Science, Technology & Medicine, EBSCOhost (accessed November 18, 2017).

Development in the early 1900s Looking at the structure of the skull without operating became possible with the advent of X-ray machines in 1896. Surviving records from Dr. Harvey Cushing at Johns Hopkins Hospital revealed greater care being taken in neurosurgery. During this time, surgeons did not wear gloves or masks and operated as quickly as possible. Cushing was critical of this practice and compared these operations to “the way a commercial traveler grabs breakfast at a lunch counter.” He studied how blood vessels in the brain reacted to changes in intracranial pressure by placing glass windows in the skulls of dogs. Using what he learned form these studies, he was able to perform brain tumor resections. Cushing’s efforts to combat sepsis and improve surgical techniques decreased the mortality rates for penetrating skull injuries from 54.4% to 28.8% over the course of a three-month period.

Kinsman, Michael, et al. "Harvey Cushing's Early Experience with the Surgical Treatment of Head Trauma." Journal Of The History Of The Neurosciences 22, no. 1 (2013): 96-115. History of Science, Technology & Medicine, EBSCOhost (accessed November 18, 2017). Kinsman, Michael, et al. "Harvey Cushing's Early Experience with the Surgical Treatment of Head Trauma." Journal of the History of the Neurosciences, vol. 22, no. 1, 2013, pp. 96-115. EBSCOhost, libraries.ou.edu/access.aspx?url=http://search.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.lib.ou.edu/login.aspx?direct=true&db=htm&AN=XISI1211275-H&site=ehost-live.

I still need to incorporate the sources and choose the best citation style for them. Any feedback would be appreciated. Billynorlin (talk) 23:37, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Please see WP:MEDHOW for formatting citations. The writing could be made tighter.  Try leaving out the quotes and adjectives and we generally don't use honorifics like "Dr.".  Just plain and simple.  You might also want to have a look at Trepanning and link to it and see also Harvey Cushing. Jytdog (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

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Main divisions
Where did this list come from? Is this a widespread system of neurosurgery subtypes, or is this just someone's idea? Natureium (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Comma
"... After residency or in some cases, as a senior resident."

Seems it should be either, "after residency or, in some cases, as a senior resident" or "after residency or in some cases as a senior resident."

Thank goodness I came along! (Har.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.63.96 (talk) 13:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Why didn't you just fix it yourself? -  Julietdeltalima   (talk)  15:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Lobotomy: No mention!?!?!?!
I find it rather strange there's no mention of lobotomy, even to denounce it as fraud neurosurgery. After all, "Ancient" has a section, and then there's a leap to electrodes. That's a little ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.166.197 (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Neurosurgery


text:
Talk:Cardiothoracic surgery

Categorization
This question was placed on my talkpage. For future reference I now place it here, and people can discuss further.--Nomen Nescio 10:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Nescio; I noticed that you reverted a couple edits for articles that I re-categorized. I'm trying to organize the different parts of the Medicine category by removing articles from the "top-level" categories and sticking them in a more appropriate category. For example, wouldn't you agree cardiothoracic surgery should be under "Types of surgery", which is ultimately under the "Medical specialties" category? I'm trying to reduce the clutter in the Medicine categories, since I don't quite have the knowledge yet to write my own articles in this subject...--CDN99 20:41, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * You are of course correct in trying to "reduce the clutter." I must say however, I find it difficult to say what is best. If it should not be placed under the "top-level" "medical speciality," does that not imply that none should be placed there? Cardiology only in cardiology, intensive care only in intensive care, etcetera. No discipline should be placed in that "top-level."

 * For the moment we'll leave it as it is. Maybe some other editor has views on it.--Nomen Nescio 10:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a specialty of surgery. Certainly would not categorize it under "Vascular Surgery" as it is now.  Many of the procedures in the Vascular Surgery category should also be categorized under Cardiothoracic.  Will begin the change when I can. -Rj101 05:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree. This page should be revised to state a cardiothoracic surgeon is a person who practices both cardiac surgery and thoracic surgery.  I have created separate categories for these in the Surgical specialties category (there has never been a cardiothoracic category, nor should there be).  Please see my comments on merging these categories at Category_talk:Surgical_specialties. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dlodge (talk • contribs) 03:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Refinement

 * Given current trends in CT surgery around the world to separate Cardiac and Thoracic (currently many programs have "tracks" w/ weighting towards one or the other), would like to do the same here. Was thinking about reflecting the organization demonstrated in Ob/Gyn.  Has some discussion of the field and then has links to separate articles for Obstetrics and Gynecology.  Any comments? -Rj101 05:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. Given no one has expressed interest in the last 4 months, I have gone ahead and made the changes you suggest.  The main CT page still needs to be tidied up. Dlodge 21:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Categorisation... again
Sorry to bring this up again, but I disagree with the way cardiac and thorasic surgeory are being described. On the thorasic surgeory page it states that the two specialties are grouped together to form cardiothorasics primarily in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zeland. However the specialty in the UK is also cardiothorasics, you can specialise, but you cannot train as a cardiac only surgeon. Surely if the specialties are grouped in this way in all these countries, it is unnecessary to say "primarily in X, Y and Z". Better surely to simply state that the two usually go hand in hand, during training at least, and then give an example of a situaton where they are not! Ross71521 (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed the "primarily..." text from thoracic surgery; the text was incorrect in relation to Canada. Dlodge (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to add Korea for cardiothoracic surgery. They are not separated either. I don't think that cardiac surgery and thoracic surgery should be separated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.82.248 (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Merged
The contents of the three articles was better spent in this one Cardiothoracic surgery article. Maybe someday it will be appropriate to split into separate articles but for now the material is pretty limited. | pulmonological talk • contribs 17:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thoracic (lung) surgery?
I see a subsection on Cardiac surgery but not on Thoracic (lung) surgery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

What kind of hospital can perform "Cardiothoracic surgery"?
This hospital must be first-class hospital, right?180.194.251.229 (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Cardiothoracic surgery