text:
Vasily Grossman

Vasily Semyonovich Grossman (Васи́лий Семёнович Гро́ссман; 12 December (29 November, Julian calendar) 1905 – 14 September 1964) was a Soviet writer and journalist. Born to a Jewish family in Ukraine, then part of the Russian Empire, Grossman trained as a chemical engineer at Moscow State University, earning the nickname Vasya-khimik ("Vasya the Chemist") because of his diligence as a student. Upon graduation, he took a job in Stalino (now Donetsk) in the Donets Basin. In the 1930s he changed careers and began writing full-time, publishing a number of short stories and several novels.

At the outbreak of the Second World War, Grossman was engaged as a war correspondent by the Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda; he wrote first-hand accounts of the battles of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, and Berlin. Grossman's eyewitness reports of a Nazi extermination camp, following the discovery of Treblinka, were among the earliest accounts of a Nazi death camp by a reporter.

There is some dispute over the extent of the state repression Grossman endured after the war. While he was never arrested, his two major literary works (Life and Fate and Everything Flows (Grossman novel)) were censored by Nikita Khrushchev's government as unacceptably anti-Soviet. At the time of Grossman's death from stomach cancer in 1964, these books remained unreleased. Hidden copies were eventually smuggled out of the Soviet Union by a network of dissidents, including Andrei Sakharov and Vladimir Voinovich, and first published in the West in 1980, before appearing in the Soviet Union in 1988.

Early life and career
Born Iosif Solomonovich Grossman in Berdychiv, Ukraine, Russian Empire, into an emancipated Jewish family, he did not receive a traditional Jewish education. His father Semyon Osipovich Grossman was a chemical engineer, and his mother Yekaterina Savelievna was a teacher of French. A Russian nanny turned his name Yossya into Russian Vasya (a diminutive of Vasily), which was accepted by the whole family. His father had social-democratic convictions and joined the Mensheviks, and was active in the 1905 Revolution; he helped organise events in Sevastopol. From 1910 to 1912, he lived with his mother in Geneva after his parents had separated. After returning to Berdychiv in 1912, he moved to Kiev in 1914 where, while living with his father, he attended secondary school and later the Kiev Higher Institute of Soviet Education. Young Vasily Grossman idealistically supported the hope of the Russian Revolution of 1917.

In January 1928, Grossman married Anna Petrovna Matsuk; their daughter, named Yekaterina after Grossman's mother, was born two years later. When he had to move to Moscow, she refused to leave her job in Kiev, but in any case, she could not get a permit to stay in Moscow. When he moved to Stalino, she certainly did not want to go; she had started having affairs. Their daughter was sent to live with his mother in Berdychiv.

Grossman began writing short stories while studying chemical engineering at Moscow State University and later continued his literary activity while working running chemical tests at a coal-mining concern in Stalino in the Donbas, and later in a pencil factory. One of his first short stories, "In the Town of Berdichev" (В городе Бердичеве), drew favourable attention and encouragement from Maxim Gorky and Mikhail Bulgakov. The film Commissar (director Aleksandr Askoldov), made in 1967, suppressed by the KGB and released only in October 1990, is based on this four-page story.

In the mid-1930s Grossman left his job and committed himself fully to writing. By 1936 he had published two collections of stories and the novel Glyukauf, and in 1937 was accepted into the privileged Union of Writers. His novel Stepan Kol'chugin (published 1937-40) was nominated for a Stalin prize, but deleted from the list by Stalin himself for alleged Menshevik sympathies.

Grossman's first marriage ended in 1933, and in the summer of 1935 he began an affair with Olga Mikhailovna Guber, the wife of his friend, the writer Boris Guber. Grossman and Olga began living together in October 1935, and they married in May 1936, a few days after Olga and Boris Guber divorced. In 1937 during the Great Purge Boris Guber was arrested, and later Olga was also arrested for failing to denounce her previous husband as an "enemy of the people". Grossman quickly had himself registered as the official guardian of Olga's two sons by Boris Guber, thus saving them from being sent to orphanages. He then wrote to Nikolay Yezhov, the head of the NKVD, pointing out that Olga was now his wife, not Guber's, and that she should not be held responsible for a man from whom she had separated long before his arrest. Grossman's friend, Semyon Lipkin, commented, "In 1937 only a very brave man would have dared to write a letter like this to the State's chief executioner." Astonishingly, Olga Guber was released.

War reporter
When Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, Grossman's mother was trapped in Berdychiv by the invading German Army, and eventually murdered together with 20,000 to 30,000 other Jews who had not evacuated. Grossman was exempt from military service, but volunteered for the front, where he spent more than 1,000 days. He became a war correspondent for the popular Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star). As the war raged on, he covered its major events, including the Battle of Moscow, the Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of Kursk and the Battle of Berlin. In addition to war journalism, his novels (such as The People are Immortal (Народ бессмертен)) were published in newspapers and he came to be regarded as a legendary war hero. The novel Stalingrad (1950), later renamed For a Just Cause (За правое дело), is based on his experiences during the siege. A new English translation, with added material from Grossman's politically risky early drafts, was published in 2019 under the original title, Stalingrad. In December 2019 the book was the subject of the series Stalingrad: Destiny of a Novel in BBC Radio 4's Book of the Week.

Grossman described Nazi ethnic cleansing in German-occupied Ukraine and Poland and the liberation by the Red Army of the German Nazi Treblinka and Majdanek extermination camps. He collected some of the first eyewitness accounts—as early as 1943—of what later became known as the Holocaust. His article The Hell of Treblinka (1944) was disseminated at the Nuremberg Trials as evidence for the prosecution.

The Hell of Treblinka
Grossman interviewed former Sonderkommando inmates who escaped from Treblinka and wrote his manuscript without revealing their identities. He had access to materials already published. Grossman described Treblinka's operation in the first person. Of Josef Hirtreiter, the SS man who served at the reception zone of the Treblinka extermination camp during the arrival of transports, Grossman wrote: "This creature specialized in the killing of children. Evidently endowed with unusual strength, it would suddenly snatch a child out of the crowd, swing him or her about like a cudgel and then either smash their head against the ground or simply tear them in half. When I first heard about this creature—supposedly human, supposedly born of a woman—I could not believe the unthinkable things I was told. But when I heard these stories repeated by eyewitnesses, when I realized that these witnesses saw them as mere details, entirely in keeping with everything else about the hellish regime of Treblinka, then I came to believe that what I had heard was true"."

Grossman's description of a physically unlikely method of killing a living human through tearing-by-hand originated from the 1944 memoir of the Treblinka revolt survivor Jankiel Wiernik, where the phrase to "tear the child in half" appeared for the first time. Wiernik himself never worked in the Auffanglager receiving area of the camp where Hirtreiter served, and so was repeating hearsay. But the narrative repetition reveals that such stories were retold routinely. Wiernik's memoir was published in Warsaw as a clandestine booklet before the war's end, and translated in 1945 as A Year in Treblinka. In his article, Grossman claimed that 3 million people had been killed at Treblinka, the highest estimate ever proposed, rather than the now widely-accepted 750,000 to 880,000; this was because of an error made by Grossman when he calculated the amount of trains that could arrive at the extermination camp each day.

Conflict with the Soviet government
Grossman participated in the compiling of the Black Book, a project of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee to document the crimes of the Holocaust. The post-war suppression of the Black Book by the Soviet state shook him to the core, and he began to question his own loyal support of the Soviet government. First the censors ordered changes in the text to conceal the specifically anti-Jewish character of the atrocities and to downplay the role of Ukrainians who worked with the Nazis as police. Then, in 1948, the Soviet edition of the book was scrapped completely. Semyon Lipkin wrote:

Grossman also criticized collectivization and political repression of peasants that led to the Holodomor tragedy. He wrote that "The decree about grain procurement required that the peasants of Ukraine, the Don and the Kuban be put to death by starvation, put to death along with their little children."

Because of state persecution, only a few of Grossman's post-war works were published during his lifetime. After he submitted for publication his magnum opus, the novel Life and Fate (Жизнь и судьба, 1959), the KGB raided his flat. The manuscripts, carbon copies, notebooks, as well as the typists' copies and even the typewriter ribbons were seized. It has been said by many, including Grossman's translator, Robert Chandler (see, for example his introduction to Life and Fate that the Politburo ideology chief Mikhail Suslov told Grossman that his book could not be published for two or three hundred years. However, Chandler and Yury Bit-Yunan, in Vasily Grossman: Myths and Counter-Myths, say that their research into the notes about that meeting of both Grossman and Suslov show that this was not the case, and in note 2 of that article, Chandler expresses regret for having made the claim.

Grossman wrote to Nikita Khrushchev: "What is the point of me being physically free when the book I dedicated my life to is arrested... I am not renouncing it... I am requesting freedom for my book." However, Life and Fate and his last major novel, Everything Flows (Все течет, 1961) were considered a threat to the Soviet power and remained unpublished. Grossman died in 1964, not knowing whether his greatest work would ever be read by the public.

Death
Grossman died of stomach cancer on 14 September 1964. He was buried at the Troyekurovskoye Cemetery on the edge of Moscow.

Legacy

Life and Fate was first published in Russian in 1980 in Switzerland, thanks to fellow dissidents: the physicist Andrei Sakharov secretly photographed draft pages preserved by Semyon Lipkin, and the writer Vladimir Voinovich smuggled the photographic films abroad. Two dissident researchers, professors and writers Efim Etkind and Shimon Markish, retyped the text from the microfilm, with some mistakes and misreadings due to the bad quality. The book was finally published in the Soviet Union in 1988 after the policy of glasnost was initiated by Mikhail Gorbachev. The text was published again in 1989 after further original manuscripts emerged after the first publication. Everything Flows was also published in the Soviet Union in 1989, and was republished in English with a new translation by Robert Chandler in 2009. Life and Fate was first published in English in 1985; a revised English translation by Robert Chandler was published in 2006 and widely praised, being described as "World War II's War and Peace.

Life and Fate is considered to be in part an autobiographical work. Robert Chandler wrote in his introduction to the Harvill edition that its leading character, Viktor Shtrum, "is a portrait of the author himself," reflecting in particular his anguish at the murder of his mother at the Berdichev Ghetto. Chapter 18, a letter from Shtrum's mother, Anna, has been dramatized for the stage and film as The Last Letter (2002), directed by Frederick Wiseman and starring Catherine Samie. Chandler suggests that aspects of the character and experience of Shtrum are based on the physicist Lev Landau. The late novel Everything Flows, in turn, is especially noted for its quiet, unforced, and yet horrifying condemnation of the Soviet totalitarian state: a work in which Grossman, liberated from worries about censors, spoke honestly about Soviet history.

Some critics have compared Grossman's novels to the work of Leo Tolstoy.

Publications

 * Kolchugin's Youth: A Novel, translated by Rosemary Edmonds (1946). Hutchinsons International Authors Ltd.
 * The People Immortal, translated by Elizabeth Donnelly (1943), Moscow, Foreign Languages Publishing House (published in U.S. as No Beautiful Nights, New York, J. Messner (1944) and in U.K. as The People Immortal, London: Hutchinson International Authors (1945)). A new translation by Robert and Elizabeth Chandler, including previously censored passages reinstated by Julia Volohova from Grossman's original typescript, was published in 2022 by NYRB Classics (US edition) and the MacLehose Press (UK edition).
 * The Black Book: The Ruthless Murder of Jews by German-Fascist Invaders Throughout the Temporarily-Occupied Regions of the Soviet Union and in the Death Camps of Poland during the War 1941–1945. By Vasily Grossman and Ilya Ehrenburg (ISBN 0-89604-031-3)
 * For a Just Cause (1956), originally titled Stalingrad. Published in the Soviet Union in Russian in 1952. English translation with additional material from Grossman's unpublished manuscripts by Robert and Elizabeth Chandler published under original name Stalingrad by New York Review Books, June 2019, ISBN 9781846555794.
 * Life and Fate (1960) (ISBN 0-00-261454-5 - first English translation edition, other editions ISBN 0-09-950616-5; ISBN 1-59017-201-9; ISBN 1-86046-019-4) The novel was praised as a masterpiece in Chandler's 2006 translation.
 * Forever Flowing (1972) (European Classics - ISBN 0-8101-1503-4) It was republished as Everything Flows, translated by Robert & Elizabeth Chandler (2010), Harvill Secker and New York Review Books (ISBN 978-1-59017-328-2).
 * The Road: Stories, Journalism, and Essays, translated by Robert and Elizabeth Chandler with Olga Mukovnikova, commentary and notes by Robert Chandler with Yury Bit-Yunan, afterword by Fyodor Guber, New York, New York Review Books, 2010, ISBN 1-59017-361-9
 * A Writer at War: Vasily Grossman with the Red Army, 1941-1945, edited and translated by Antony Beevor and Luba Vinogradova from Grossman's wartime notebooks. New York: Pantheon Books, 2005. ISBN 0-375-424-07-5. Also published as A Writer at War: A Soviet Journalist with the Red Army, 1941-1945. Vintage Canada. ISBN 978-0-307-36378-7.
 * An Armenian Sketchbook (written in 1962). Translated by Robert Chandler. New York Review Books Classics, 2013, ISBN 1590176189.
 * "In The War" and Other Stories. Translated by Andrew Glikin-Gusinsky. Sovlit.net
 * Grossman's publications at lib.ru

title: Vasily Grossman


text:
Template talk:California

Harmonizing Template:California
Finish harmonizing Template:California BigBang11 23:27 Pacific Standard Time, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Regions
What criteria is being used to determine what regions should be on this template? I do not want to see an edit war over this section similar to what happened with the metros section before we decided to strictly use Census MSAs. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I can see no reasonable criteria other than something larger than a city and less than a state. Actually, that isn't even correct, since the ambiguously named Harbor Area article is all part of the city of Los Angeles. Personal opinion: Anything in the regions section that is a subset of one of the other links should be removed. There may be a dozen links that all fit under Southern California for example. Blank Verse 12:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree with you on that, except that if we take that to its ultimate conclusion, then all we need are three region links: Northern California, Central California, and Southern California. But regions like Silicon Valley and Wine Country should be significant enough to be mentioned in the template!  So I am really not sure what is the best solution.  What does everyone else think? --Coolcaesar 00:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If there was some official, credible source to copy, it would make life easier. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I just deleted a bunch of 'regions' that are just parts of LA or LA County (e.g. Palos Verdes Peninsula). I also deleted some of the minor valleys such as Conejo Valley. I think that even with my deletions the regions section is still too large, but every criteria that I can think of would probably eliminate too many regions.

The list that User talk:Geomeister seems to be following is List of regions of the United States. Blank Verse 10:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

 * But that list suffers the same problem in that there is no official, credible source. Both that and the template seem to be listing arbitrary regions. Therefore, I am removing it from the template until this matter is resolved. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Geomeister is adding a bunch of links that aren't regions. How are Salton Sea and Santa Ana Mountains regions of California? Are we going to list every mountain range and lake as regions? —Kenyon (t·c) 05:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I think listing the San Andreas Fault as a "region" is also a bit of a stretch. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Just purged some of Geomeister's original research again. SanSan and Tech Coast are both science fiction fantasies that have never come into use outside of very small geek communities; that is, they are not known or used by most of the people in the areas which those terms describe.  Including them on the California template is nearly as stupid as putting the U.S., Canada, and Mexico on a North American Union template.  While some North American intellectuals, myself included, believe that a North American Union is a laudable long-term foreign policy goal, it is currently a science fiction fantasy among a relatively small community of intellectuals which has little hope of becoming a reality in the foreseeable future.  Wikipedia is not a soapbox or an indiscriminate collection of random information per official policies No original research and What Wikipedia is not.  If Geomeister wishes to push SanSan or Tech Coast, he or she is welcome to build their own site on WikiCities.  Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and as such must conform to certain content policies (otherwise it would not be an encyclopedia).  --Coolcaesar 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I removed "Upstate California" because it is a hoax region and citations about it lead to a perhaps non-profit entity which cannot be found in the IRS non-profit lookup service. Wiki is not a place for hoaxes or original research.  Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Mircoarea
The section about microarea's is a bit ridiculous and likely needs to be removed. South Bay (talk) 22:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is it "ridiculous" when the information was gathered from the United States micropolitan area and Table of United States Micropolitan Statistical Areas articles? Is there something wrong with the United States Office of Management and Budget defining these types of official areas around the country? Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Metro areas linking to cities?
Why do the metro areas link to the cities in those areas? If we're going to have a list of cities, then we might as well call it "major cities". But if we're going to have metro areas, then let's link to the metro area articles. --TorriTorri(Talk to me!) 02:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * IIRC, the decision to link to the cities was made well before almost all of the metro area articles were ever created. And so, it hasn't yet changed since then. Zzyzx11 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If we dont have major articles on the metro areas, then we should include the names of all major cities in each area. im thinking berkeley should be added to the string for hayward/oakland/fremont. problem is, thats not the metro area, i think sf/oakland is the metro region. Oh, heres a category: Category:Metropolitan areas of California, we already classify the entire bay area as one metro area. So, I wonder if we should have a section for metro regions as defined here, and ANOTHER section for major cities. just a thought.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:28, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Mess
the metro stat and micro stat sections are a mess. too much original research. not that the research is inaccurate, its just not supported by external refs. I think i need to tighten it up. some helpful links: California census statistical areas, San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA, Los Angeles metropolitan area, Greater Los Angeles Area, San Diego metropolitan area, Sacramento metropolitan area, Metropolitan Fresno, etc.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 07:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

reorganize
OK im gonna try here. i think the region/metro/micro should simply be counties. i will consider other changes. see if i have the moxie to do this (although we californians usually dont have moxie, which is more of a NY thing)Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

 * So the Metro Regions list is inconsistent. Metro Regions itself links to Metropolitan Statistical Area so I would expect the listings to link to those articles as well. However, San Francisco, Fresno and Sacramento link to their CSA articles, and San Diego links to an area that has no official (governmental) definition. Also, names are inconsistent. Either it's all CSAs (except San Diego which doesn't have one) over a million people (in which case Metro Regions needs to link to the CSA article):
 * Los Angeles-Long Beach; San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland; San Diego; Sacramento; Fresno
 * or it's all MSAs (again, over a million people):
 * Los Angeles; San Francisco; Riverside; San Diego; Sacramento; San Jose
 * I don't have a preference, but it simply needs to be consistent.
 * Dtcomposer (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Largest cities in CA
Dividing the states into two halves (Northern and Southern), Stockton is the 5th largest in NorCal (with over 300,000 people) and Riverside is the 5th largest in SoCal (also with over 300,000). San Jose now has over a million people and Fresno surpassed Sacramento (state capital) as the state's 4th largest city. San Diego-Tijuana on both sides of the US-Mexican border should be the 2nd largest metro area in the state, then again Riverside-San Bernardino metro area has more people than San Diego if you go by only the US side. Only one city north of Sacramento, Chico has over 100,000. And recently, Indio in the fast-growing Palm Springs/Coachella area surpassed the 100,000 mark. About 80 cities now in California have over 100,000 residents. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 17:34, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you have a specific proposal? This is what is called in Wikipedia a navigation template, which lists links to a selection of articles pertaining to the entire state, not for Northern and Southern CA. Nor is it a general list for exploratory browsing of such topics in Wikipedia. Nor a list of with annotations, further details or notes (which it appears you attempted to add but was reverted by another editor). The is primary a template to navigate around related articles. For brevity, it is only listing the top ten cities, not 25 or 88 -- otherwise the entire navigation template becomes unwielding. if you are looking for actual lists with such annotations, further details or notes, there are actual detailed articles like List of cities and towns in California. Zzyzx11 (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No proposal is really needed, keep the listing of California's largest cities at ten: From Los Angeles to Anaheim (10th) in Orange County, a very populous county which is among the state's and nation's most and highest population density outside of New Jersey. I noticed socioeconomically, cities 60-120 miles away from Los Angeles in the Inland Empire and Mojave Desert are notably low-income, higher unemployment rates and now has higher minority populations than inner-city L.A. Places like Lancaster-Palmdale, California City and Ridgecrest in Kern county (among the state's poorest counties in income level similar to Imperial, the lowest overall), Victorville area and Barstow along with Yucca Valley-29 Palms, and the highest poverty cities of Cathedral City and Coachella in the Palm Springs area. Gentrification, lower housing prices as well higher availability of section 8 housing, and dependency of cheap migrant laborers in agriculture and construction, is why there is such a demographic profile in those places. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 17:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * In the last decade, Desert Hot Springs is ranked the WORST place to live in California on 5 issues: 1. Crime incidence rates (higher ratio per city population than even Compton, Los Angeles and also New York City), 2. Poverty/Low-income percentages (including food stamps, welfare, disability, section 8 housing and medicare recipients), 3. High unemployment and underemployment issues, 4. Less high school grads with lower college degree holders in city population, and 5. Drug trafficking and production (Google search the number of news articles about DHS' thriving medical marijuana industry). Desert Hot Springs in the top 5/6 worst cities in CA competing with San Bernardino, Oakland, Stockton, Yuba City and El Centro next to the Mexican border. Adinneli (talk) 23:42, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2019
Please change the "regions" subsection so as to include the "Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta" as a region of California. 166.148.67.254 (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

 * ✅ –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Template talk:California


text:
Limours

Limours, often referred to as Limours-en-Hurepoix is a commune the Essonne department in Île-de-France in northern France.

Geography
Limours is located 30 km from Paris.

Population
Inhabitants of Limours are known as Limouriens in French.

Pays de Limours
Limours gives its name to, and is the most populated town of, the Communauté de communes du Pays de Limours, which aggregates fourteen Essonne communes. The administrative seat of the communauté, however, is in Briis-sous-Forges rather than Limours itself.

List of Pays de Limours member towns:
 * Angervilliers
 * Boullay-les-Troux
 * Briis-sous-Forges
 * Courson-Monteloup
 * Fontenay-lès-Briis
 * Forges-les-Bains
 * Gometz-la-Ville
 * Janvry
 * Les Molières
 * Limours
 * Pecqueuse
 * Saint-Jean-de-Beauregard
 * Saint-Maurice-Montcouronne
 * Vaugrigneuse

title: Limours


text:
Talk:Nebra sky disc

Moved from [User_talk:Adamsan]
I've added a subsection devoted to presenting the skepticism that justly centers on this object. I hope you'll add some links if there are any.
 * ''"Skeptical criticism

The disk has only just begun to attract the kind of speculation that hangs over Stonehenge, but uneasiness about the circumstances of its recovery have focused on the following weaknesses: "'' Wetman 22:38, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Sorry Wetman I can't let that pass. You have reverted to the previous POV article and are presenting theory as fact. There is no secure provenence for the disc and therefore to call it a record of the earliest observatory recorded and a Bronze Age artefact is misleading when it may well be a fake. The Scientific American article appears to be about a different site altogether and that is why I removed it. The whole thing is POV and demands a rewrite. --adamsan 07:21, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

When User:adamsan ("Professional archaeologist and general smartarse" according to his his userpage) says "there is no secure provenance" a reader may be led to think that there is no secure provenance. The entry then must detail the provenance, as outlined in the 2000 Scientific American article. But User:adamsan has suppressed reference to that article. The landesmuseum site linked has very convincing micrographs of the object, unfakeable. Worth looking at the pitchers, even for someone whose German is as limited as his manners. I see this entry needs to be expanded. Wetman 18:03, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

 * From dictionary.com:
 * prov·e·nance    P   Pronunciation Key  (prv-nns, -näns) n. Place of origin; derivation. Proof of authenticity or of past ownership. Used of art works and antiques
 * There is no secure provenance for this item as its 'finder' says it was looted, not archaeologically excavated. Without evidence that it came from this site we have no proof. Archaeologists talk about 'contexts' which are just as important as the items themselves. The disc could be from somewhere else or a fake. If it was looted then it was almost certainly dug up surreptitiously, in a hurry and at night. How can anyone say with any certainty that the item came from this pit in Nebra? If it's a fake then the whole tale could have been made up to provide a convincing backstory.
 * The SciAm article appears to be about a different site entirely, one in a wheatfield, not a forest - how on God's green earth is it supposed to have any relevance to the disc?
 * Why did you yourself suppress a link to the BBC Horizon documentary on the disk Wetman?
 * Whatever the truth, this article should not assume that the disc is authentic, securely dated or provenanced until published material is produced. That is the academic and scientific method. We may want to believe that the disc is real but we cannot assume so until the information is published. --adamsan 18:26, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
 * That was a perfectly dreadful but inadvertent gaffe on my part, frankly, because the BBC's documentary is very revealing. More quotes from it will clear the atmosphere eh. I shall explicate the Landesmuseum's commentary on the quite definitive microphotographs. There is no reason to expect anyone to read German. Most archaeologists do, though... Oh well. But User:Adamsan's stance of skepticism does reflect the current situation: all the skeptics are Brits! Dear Old Stonehenge. No problem, we understand. Nobody beats us Yanks at provincialism. The Shroud of Turin is quite dishonest as a comparison, doesn't everyone agree?. I have left it in the entry, to see whether Adamsan might withdraw it. Wetman 01:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Wetman, your obsession with nationalism is disturbing. Will you please understand that archaeology is a profession and one grounded in academic necessity at that. Until peer-reviewed, published material is produced, scepticism *should* prevail. This is common sense.
 * Another question Wetman, how did these people attach the gold symbols to the disc? Glue? It seems odd that such advanced metallurgical skills are are unique to this one artefact. Perhaps when something is *published* all will become clear. The controversy over the Shroud being a counterfeit or an important religious artefact seems quite relevant to me but if you wish to edit it, I shall not quibble. Love from --adamsan 08:11, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * To suggest that there is any parallel with the Shroud of Turin-- motivation, date, techniques, materials, history-- any parallel whatsoever, is dishonest. My obsession is with honesty. Chauvinism is just as dreary in the US as it is anywhere else. As for the disk, *something* is not only *published* it has been *linked* at the entry. And that's quite enough about that. Wetman 09:55, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Published in an established, peer-reviewed journal Wetman, not linked on the internet which is nowhere near as academically sound. Real big love from --adamsan 10:19, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * on method of affixing: http://www.archlsa.de/sterne/goldtauschierung.htm --Yak 07:48, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * To suggest that there is any parallel with the Shroud of Turin-- motivation, date, techniques, materials, history-- any parallel whatsoever, is dishonest. My obsession is with honesty. Chauvinism is just as dreary in the US as it is anywhere else. As for the disk, *something* is not only *published* it has been *linked* at the entry. And that's quite enough about that. Wetman 09:55, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Published in an established, peer-reviewed journal Wetman, not linked on the internet which is nowhere near as academically sound. Real big love from --adamsan 10:19, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * on method of affixing: http://www.archlsa.de/sterne/goldtauschierung.htm --Yak 07:48, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Here is a link to a FAQ about it, both english and german http://www.archlsa.de/sterne/faq.htm "6. What is the significance of the location? The find spot is situated on the Mittelberg near Nebra which also displays astronomical context. The site's special aspect can be seen in the correct determination of at least two important dates, e.g., on the 21 June the sun can be seen from here to set exactly behind the Brocken, the most important mountain in the Harz, and similarly, on   1 May the sun sets behind the Kulpenberg, the highest hill of the Kyffhäuser. Since 20.08.2002 we are excavating the immediate find spot where the hunters' disturbances were discovered. The complete site consists of a circular embankment that encloses the summit of the hill. The find spot insists of several ramparts which presumably date to different periods which contributes a chronological examination of the relationships within this enclosure shall be investigated in the coming years." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.117.240 (talk) 16:47, 28 June 2005 (UTC)

--- Points arising from my edits of 1st July 2004

--- copper source: do you known of any other copper objects found in the early Bronze age in east Germany with a Carpathian origin? The ore mountains are a much nearer source, and indeed local copper mining has been used to explain rich burials like Leubingen and Helmstedt. Anyway, the edit as it is now does not much sense for the reader. --Yak 17:18, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The rewritten first sentence is now more factual and without subjective references to believability, which can be explored later on.
 * Mentions of the Neolithic removed until supporting evidence from 2,000 years before the assigned date of the disc appears
 * Comparison to henge removed until supporting evidence that the enclosure has a ditch inside a bank and that it dates to the Neolithic appears.
 * Yes, metal detectorist is the most common term for them
 * Unsubstantiated (and offensive) comments about British archaeologists removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsan (talk • contribs) 19:18, 1 July 2004 (UTC)
 * It seems tellingly inconsistent that— in an entry where an object that has been intercepted on the gray market for antiquities (but cf. Gudea, Elephantine papyri etc) is doubted for its provenance, though the original looter is identified— the source of the copper should be so blithely stated without a reference. Wetman 18:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Pernicka, E., Wunderlich, C.-H.: Naturwissenschaftliche Untersuchungen an den Funden von Nebra. Archäologie in Sachsen-Anhalt 1, 24-29 (2002).
 * You are right, Wetman, we could do with some more sources --Yak 22:50, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have uploaded Image:Himmelsscheibe von Nebra.jpg to commons. Should it be linked from this article? dab (ᛏ) 10:21, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't pretend to understand copyright law but if it's Public Domain then it would certainly augment the description nicely. adamsan 18:36, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * museums tend to claim copyright on images of their exhibits, often on dubious grounds. as far as the disk is considered a 2-dimensional work of art (which I think is very arguable), it clearly falls under Template:PD-art. dab (ᛏ) 10:25, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * the image is up for deletion on commons:Commons:Deletion_requests -- if it breaches copyright (which one?) it should of course be deleted. It it doesn't, it shouldn't. Please comment. dab (ᛏ) 15:39, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I mentioned the disc to my swedish teacher (lector) in archaeology and he has big doubts about the disc's autencity - instead he claimed that it's from the 15/16th century AC. My point is - even though Sweden has nothing to loose in supporting claims of the disc's authencity there still are doubts; meaning that doubts doesn't have to include nationalism *excuse my bad english*//Charlotte, Gothenburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.224.186.135 (talk) 18:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

German Wikipedia
The German version of this article appears to have a great deal of useful commentary that might be edited in here. --Wetman 19:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello,
 * I too studied the article in the german Wikipedia and it is sure and by now proven and widely accepted that this disc is true and no fake! Scientist used high tech to research the age and the developement.
 * I think too it is time change this article here accordingly...--Kenaz9 02:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Minor correction
I have corrected the previous version; the accompanying finds were NOT discovered by archaeologists who opened the dig after the illicit finders had led them to the supposed finding site. In fact, the accompanying finds had already been removed together with the disk by the looters in the first place. The archaeologists only found some traces that support the looters' claim. Please feel free to correct my English in the article, since I am no native speaker. --89.56.199.255 13:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Added Links
Have been researching this subject for senior year project and found some very useful websites - I have linked an article by the archeologist who aquired the disc from the looters, Dr Wolfhard Schlosser, (it is in German but nonetheless useful as an informed source, and even a Babelfish translation makes it fairly readable) and also a link to a copy of an article in the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (to read the original on the official website you have to pay), which gives some details about the trial of the looters and Peter Shauer's views that the disc is fake. -- master_gopher — Preceding undated comment added 01:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you'd be willing to introduce some detail from the articles you've found—or even from German Wikipedia. --Wetman 01:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Associative dating
Does WP have an article on Associative dating because I can't find one. It seems like the sort of thing that should be found in an encylopedia. As such I made "associative dating" a link. - 22nov 2006 - 23:03 UTC" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.142.175 (talk) 23:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is called relative dating.--Ciroa (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

OR
I've seen the disk in Basel yesterday (hence my upload of a GFDL'd image), and I am not convinced by the "boat" interpretation. I admit the thought suggests itself, and the exhibition does go out of its way to stress the importance of the solar barge and its abstract representations. But there is not one single example that shows the barge as a simple circle segment. It always has prow, keel and bow. The fact that the barge is shown separate from the Sun is also hard to explain, the lame suggestion that the barge abstractly represents "movement" of both Sun and Moon doesn't convince at all, and in their fancy animation, they make the boat sail on the outer ocean looking somewhat lost (all other elements being in the sky).

The possibility that the arc may represent the milky way has indeed been suggested, but is eclipsed by the "barge" interpretation in presentation. But if the full circle is the Sun, not the full Moon, there is no need to restrict ourselves to the night sky (and indeed the addition of the solstice markers shows that the thing was at least re-interpreted in a solar context).

I thus came to think the arc simply represents the rainbow. This explains the parallel lines running alongside it, and makes the disk a simple enumeration of celestial lights, sun, moon, stars and rainbow. I'm not trying to sneak this into the article, but I'll just datestamp this here, in case the idea crops up in an WP:RS later :) dab (𒁳) 13:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * You are not the first to suggest this interpretation. Meller mentioned it at the conference in Halle in 2005 as one of the many proposals he received.  In fact it has been my first guess as well.  One noticeable feature of the arc is that it has scratches all around: that has been interpreted by Meller c.s. as stylised representations of oars, hence the boat.  This is in analogy to scratches that are always found around stylised animals on bronze-age rasor blades from about that time: Kaul Fleming has shown that these can be interpreted as animals and boats carrying the Sun across heaven, and the scratches are oars according to him: there is contemorary rock art of boats with oars.  I suggested to him that on the rasors and the sky disk they might represent some kind of light aura, but he dismissed that.

 * Also mind that the disk clearly has gone through several phases, probably some generations apart, and has had different meanings and interpretations accordingly. The "boat" arc is propably a later addition: its gold comes from another source than the original Moons (or Sun) and stars.  Tom Peters 10:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * thank you! I am not keen on being the first to have this idea, I am more keen to mention it in the article, which we can now do :) I am aware of the "oars" interpretation, but I'm not convinced by it. The Nordic Bronze Age rock art boats have stylized crew and oars, but they are different. I'd also opt for "aura", or simply for ornamentation (a style that may have become more common over the intervening time). Sure, the "boat" is a possibility, and unless a similar item is found, there will never be a proof one way or the other. dab (𒁳) 10:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the path of Vega kissing the North horizon at the winter solstice. You can check at stellarium.org. DaveCW (talk) 21:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Dab, take a look at the added section "Religious Importance" and I have introduced a more plausible understanding of the disk's meaning and purpose. Once you read it I think you will agree the arch is not a boat. C John Nichols postulates that the Arch is the crystalized base of the throne of God said to be in the sides of the North. It is found recorded in Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:... '''Ezk 1:22..."was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."  and  "in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone" (a crystal) Ezk10:1''' It is most likely what the Bible calls the sides of the North it is the crystalline firmament God made to separate his holy abode from the darkness and sin Lucifer by his rebellion brought in, but at the side of the North there is the throne of God. The firmament contains the whole of our known universe.

The arch is placed solely on the portion of the disk to indicate which way is north. North is always depicted as up. Not understanding the religious beliefs of the Saxons, and that which is handed down through World religions the archeologist misunderstood the disk and made the arch a boat. the little lines or scratches are indicative the radiant glory (an Aura) that fills the abode of God. These Saxons are from the line of Japheth the oldest son of Noah and they had some truths that had been handed down since they scattered abroad the earth as found in Genesis 11.

The rainbow is not far fetched as John the writer of the Book of revelation said in Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  so a rainbow placed there indicates the place of the throne once again. not only that the promise of a rainbow to ever be in the clouds of rain were a promise God would not destroy the earth again by flood '''Genesis 8:20-22 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. and verified again by promise of a rainbow in Genesis 9:12, 13 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.'''. The use of a rainbow would indicate that to the north sat God in his glory the wavy lines radiating upward.

I believe where science and the Bible agree it is trusted truth. But I realize not everyone believes as I do. I respect scientist but sometime they are wrong because none of us is perfect. Sometimes we are to quick to dismiss the Bible as myth or folklore but then again what is the disk but part of ancient folklore. I only suggest a more plausible meaning of the disk as a recording of a spectacular solar/lunar event that took place about the time of the radiocarbon date. which just happens to coincide with a famous solar/Lunar event recorded in the Bible and in mythology and legend around the world. --Fibroman (talk) 09:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Fibroman, I apologize in advance if this offends you and I'm sorry for the effort you put on this, but I cannot let this pass. I removed the very long quote of Mr. C. John Nichols, that I honestly believe belongs to Biblical cosmology. I summarized what you wrote in the section 'Significance'. Also, please, read what I wrote in previous paragraphs about how to add a reference. Ciroa (talk) 08:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with your disagreement but it does not mean you are correct in your opinion. I have taken your advice into consideration for future revisions.  sometimes long quotes are needed because the material is either to hard to find, not available or some wont take the time to look up the quote.  The article had more to do with the disks purpose than cosmology in and of itself let alone biblical cosmology.  The section was created to suggest what the purpose of the disks creation.  Lets have some talk about it before you go removing quotes from posts and articles a little more communication will help us to make better and more complete articles.  There is no Religious motive behind my addition to this article as noted above I used the Bible and Mr Nichols materials as well as some sites to link too for the sole purpose of verifying points and to present a religious/spiritual possibility as to the disk creation.  I will deal respectfully to you so please do so with me as well, so no nutcase references are necessary OK?  I could not get a talk page set up I am having difficulty with it.  I did appreciate the advice above as to how to add a reference I was having trouble there. I wanted the section to be here if it is too "Biblical" for you please direct me to material that I can use that is not that will show the event as depicted on the Disk and has a dating system that matches as the Bible clearly does.  The dating system of the Bible was done by a very intelligent man, Dr. Unger a highly educated man and a brilliant scholar and historian.  I have been following the Nebra sky disk since its supposed discovery I have searched high and low for a meaning and significance for it as others have too.  I have researched and read hundreds of articles,books,reviews and thesis papers of students from Astrophysics to religion, from University's in Texas, California and Virginia.  I have had others help me with Stellar, Solar and Lunar models based on programs from event and quite possibly the same one as found in the Bible.  Nothing wrong with that in itself, I like Biblical Archeology because you have a place to start from.  Did you know that archeology was actually started to prove the Bible correct.  And that most of the sites in the Middle East were found by using a Bible.  So the Bible is not such a bad thing to use and just because something has Biblical reference does not mean it should automatically go in "Biblical Cosmology"0.  This section I created was specifically about the Nebra Sky Disk's possible creation.  It is just as possible/plausible as any other reason given throughout the article.  If the article dealt more with cosmology I might think it best to put there but it doesn't. Your addition to significance does nothing to promote further thought on the purpose for the disk's creation. So while it points to some obscure religious ambiguity it does not link to any specifics.  Hence, I will rewrite the material and submit it under a different heading. Fibroman — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fibroman (talk • contribs) 14:58, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it is worrying that you state that archeology was actually started to prove the Bible correct, because the first archaeologists worked in Italy (Rome), England and Turkey/Greece. Perhaps you should read the article on archeology. Fortunately, I did not have to touch your new work, someone else did. We eagerly await the other theories on this disk that you might have read in your studies, because the fact is that I do not dispute your findings, but your method to write encyclopedic articles and it is important for people who have read about a subject to contribute to Wikipedia. If I take one author and copy/paste his opinions... well, that's the opposite of encyclopedic. I'm sure your ample readings will allow you to cite a couple of opinions that differ from the lonely one you're presenting for readers to be able to reach the widest possible set of positions on an issue. For the huge majority of archaeologists (and many jew/christians/muslims believers), I think, the Bible is a religious book, not the source of encyclopedic content, unless you're talking about judeo/christian religion. I did not mention the Bible in my previous post. I would say the same if you quoted extensively the Qur'an to explain the significance of this object or, as a matter of fact, the New York Times.--Ciroa (talk) 09:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, dear.
"...looted by illegal treasure hunters..."? A couple of guys find something in the dirt somewhere and get arrested for it? Who decides what an "archaeological artifact" is? If I dig up a 50 year old coin somewhere in Saxony-Anhalt, do the stormtroopers shoot first and ask questions later? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.28.239 (talk) 06:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * these were professionals, equipped with metal detectors, fully aware they were doing something illegal, and they immediately sold the finds to professional handlers. dab (𒁳) 07:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6722953.stm -- AnonMoos 06:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Holes on the perimeter
The 39 or 40 holes of 3mm each on the perimeter of the disc indicate that the disc was probably mounted on some ty pe of frame - wooden or other type - for regular easy handling. AJIT 59.181.114.22 11:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

 * You are correct the disk was possibly sewn with leather onto a breastplate to be worn by the Religious or Tribal Leader. But being a craftsman of sorts myself the fact that the holes are pierced through the golden areas suggest the purpose for the addition of the holes to the disk came sometime later and was not part of the original idea for the disk.  If the holes had been part of the original design it makes sense to leave a bit of border for placing the holes and not pierce central parts to the design like the golden arches to each side or the gold arch which signifies which direction the disk would be place north.  I believe the Photo in the disk is currently upside down to how it was originally viewed.  Furthermore, there is a great possibility this disk was not made by the Saxon at all but they may be responsible for some repair (hence different gold)and are quite responsible for the holes.  Most likely the disk could be war booty taken from another tribe who got it from another.  The arches on the sides were not part of the original design but were added along with a Rainbow arch shortly thereafter to direct the observer to the North.  So that the stars, moon and sun can be seen as they were when the disk was made for the purpose of recording the longest day in history (or night depending on where you were).

Or for hanging from a string, like an astrolabe, to maintain correct orientation as sky rotates during night. For this, only holes on right are needed. DaveCW — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveCW (talk • contribs) 22:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Popular Culture?
From the article: "The disk has begun to attract the kind of pseudoarchaeology, neopagan and paranormal speculation that is associated with Stonehenge and Arkaim." If this is at all relevant, then at least give some examples of what these speculations are and why they're false. MaryJones 22:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

 * "You are correct the disk was possibly sewn with leather onto a breastplate to be worn by the Religious or Tribal Leader." "Leather"? "Breastplate"? "Religious"? "Leader"? Religion is implied on this page and throughout the article, with no evidence beyond "we don't know what this is". All elements of the design are consistent with technical astronomical observations, for determining whether a "leap month" is required. DaveCW (talk) 17:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Greetings from Romania
Sorry, my English is not very good. But I found this wonderful article on the skydisk and I have to thank you. I didn't know that it became that famous in the western countries. You have to know I'm a poor man. Once I was a professor for archaeology in my hometown of Bucharest but when communism ended I lost my job. I sat at home all the time looking for a hobby. So I took my drill machine (very solid soviet machine) an built that skydisk in my garage. Then I said to myself only the Germans are stupid enough to take this little handiwork of mine for serious and I gave it to them. And now it's that popular all over the world! God bless the foolishness of this German simpletons, they make my so happy, an old man. --BucharestBoy 01:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes. Moreover you built the pyramids I suppose? No problem with solid soviet tools! --EvaBriegel 05:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a very old man now and will die soon. Like my compatriot Nicolae said (don't believe the ugly lies people tell about him! I had a job then!), there will be a better day again. I cannot believe it: how stupid this Germans are. You can sell them your baby daughters shoes and they will think the shoes are 10,000 years old. This foulish and aggressive people. It is only the second time I use this Internet, but it is a good thing. Well, people always talking about it. All this modern stuff but they don't recognize that my sky disk is a forgery. --BucharestBoy (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I doubt very seriously being a poor man without work you would have wasted the gold on such a foolish prank at no profit to yourself. --Fibroman (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

2.2Kg of gold- really? IceDragon64 (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Pity About Irelevant Discussion
The Nebra disk should be considered serious. Even the BBC reaction this summer -- see URL up there -- has the reaction which has a sound of dismiss. Pity, because, one is not used to that intonation coming from that house. The Eurepoean nelithic and eneolithic past should not be underestimated, because it is the predcessor of later cultures that are possible to trace in pre-Homer cultures down to the South and East: Hetites and later. The fact that, excluding the Stonehenge, in eneolithic times these cultures could not put the trace in the stone, like it is in Mykena od Troy cultures, does not mean they did not existed! The big picture tells that the origins of culture which were at a time or earlier then Old Kingdom od Egypt were good developed and existed in Central Europe like Baden_culture, Starčevac Culture and Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture. And, by the way, the Vučedol Orion is much more precise - and older - calendar then Nebra and Stonehenge. Mak13 (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * these are full topics in their own right, Neolithic Europe and Bronze Age Europe. They are rather specialized topics, but I am not sure why you think they aren't taken seriously. dab (𒁳) 08:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Winking smiley-face?
Anybody else noticed that this resembles a cartoon smiley face that's winking at us? Could it be anymore blatant? ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.24.130 (talk) 09:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw it straight away and was thinking of making a silly comment about it until I discovered you already had! IceDragon64 (talk) 22:42, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, my first reaction. Clearly not the first one to notice it. Mcowell1 (talk) 19:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * See Pareidolia. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Resolution of lawsuits?
The copyright lawsuits are interesting, but at least one of them ought to have been resolved by now. Anyone know? Ken K (talk) 17:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I did not know that it was possible to put a copyright on the design of something that is over 100 years old. The exact copy of the design of something that old should be public domain,but any new variation could be copyrighted.  It is sad to think people will use such an important find that supports recorded history for personal gain. But such is the world.--Fibroman (talk) 10:05, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Nebra Sky disk - A Record of the Earths Longest Day
I added this section to the article to help explain the possible reason for the Disk's creation as a record of the Earth's Longest Day. Ciroa felt it was too religious so I removed as many religious views from the section and shortened all Bible references but left links. 99.119.221.56 felt it lacked the same style. while I did not write the body of the original article I only composed this section to help enlighten those who had a heart for deeper understanding as to the disks creation. So in lite of 99.119.221.56 comments I tried to align the style with that of the rest of the article more informative and less personal.

the original title page was removed and a revised section was put in. This sections also was revised and updated.

However with respect to those who commented below about the original section I have left their posts intact. Fibroman — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fibroman (talk • contribs) 14:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Regardless of the content, the style of the addition is suspect and needs a rewrite. Go back and look at the section you added, then compare it with the rest of the article. You'll see that the styles used are very different from each other. 99.119.221.56 (talk) 06:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed this section that perhaps belongs to Biblical_cosmology. Would you be so kind as to include it in the appropriate article, please? Large quotes of one book should be avoided and references are NOT added at the end of the reflist tag: please, add the reference following the text of the article and surrounding it with the ref tags, like this: This is the text of the article. . Ciroa (talk) 08:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Wiki pals for pointing our the areas needed to make this portion of the Article more Encyclopedic. It will take me a little more time to clean it up, look up wikipedia/non wikipedia links for verification and make the weasel words more sound. I will take a copy off the page with all the points that were Highlighted to work it out here then re-post an updated/reworked section. In the mean time I removed the section for now? 13:55, 4 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fibroman (talk • contribs) 13:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't forget extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. TIA. 92.140.120.129 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC).

Spelling Consistency
The article refers to the subject as both a "sky disk" and a "skydisk." Logically, this should follow some consistency. 75.72.7.108 (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Also it uses both American English spellings (disk) and Commonwealth English ones (centimetre). Which Engvar is it written in? 86.137.147.216 (talk) 08:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

If that be a Crescent, then the other be a Full Moon
Simple fact, observable by anyone: the Moon is lit by the Sun, therefore a Crescent would have its centres of arc away from the Sun, not toward it. Thus, if that be a Crescent, then the other be a Full Moon, not the Sun. It is highly unlikely that the makers of this Disc could have got it wrong.AptitudeDesign (talk) 10:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you were replying to the text above, I've deleted it as this is not a forum to discuss the disc. You'll need reliable sources to verify that such sources agree with you. Dougweller (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you have a fair point. I don't accept that it MUST be the sun- after all when the sun is there, you can't see the stars and yes, indeed, the crescent moon should be the other way if it were the sun. IceDragon64 (talk) 22:57, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Needs updating
This really needs enhancing and updating. We need to show Schlosser's views more fully, but also those of the other main players. The German version has some stuff we don't have.

It has Miranda Aldhouse Green's views, using as a source so I guess that can be more or less copied from there, but they are fairly old.

The Zur Navigation springenZum Content springenLandesamt für Denkmalpflege und Archäologie Sachsen-Anhalt / Landesmuseum für Vorgeschichte has lot of information - view it in Chrome and you'll get an automatic translation of the pages.

There's quite a few bad sources on Google, but is The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age with a short bit by Harald Meller, one of the major researchers as well as comments by other authors. It adds a 5th phase when it was "irrevocably removed from circulation". There's a 2011 paper by Schlosser. Google scholar has more. Dougweller (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Discovery -location not orientation and relevence
In the section about Discovery a statement is made that the orientation makes the sun set behind a particular mountain- surely it is the location of the site, not the orientation that does this? I might have changed it myself, but I think the whole statement should be removed as irrelevant to this article about the skydisc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IceDragon64 (talk • contribs) 22:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That section is astronomically illiterate in every way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.21.28 (talk • contribs)  21:55, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

A few things
First, how do they know that the disc doesn't go the other way up? It looks like it ought to be turned 180deg to me. I'd also doubt the sun-barge idea. Seems more like a line connecting the full moon and the crescent moon, to indicate the transformation of one into the other. As for all the frantic search for its "meaning", like always, I can't help but wonder if any of them considered that perhaps it was a mere decoration, perhaps to adorn the person of the tribal shaman, or whatever you want to call it, who put great faith in the moon and stars as portents and omens, etc? It doesn't always have to MEAN something, or contain some great secret or clue. Maybe them maker just thought it looked pretty. Maybe a later mans primitive artistic senses were piqued, and he felt that adding a couple random golden strips to the side would make it look nicer...what we'd call "balanced" nowadays. As for the related finds, is it normal to find Bronze Age swords in such pristine condition? Seems like most I've even seen were pretty badly corroded, but these look like they could have been built 200 years ago..45Colt 20:37, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

 * 1) This is bronze, not iron. Means it is very resistant to corrosion.
 * 2) Interpretation of archaeological findings is always a bit speculative, but in this case there is strong evidence that the disc really was a "pocket-version" of Stonehenge. It also seems to be possible that the later additions were connected to a change of usage - perhaps first a star chart (Pleiades), then a calendar (the "random golden strips" are set in the exact degrees of the solstiches at Nebra) and in the last stage as a cult object like the sun chariot of Trundholm.
 * 3) By the way, how do you define "primitive artistic senses"? 2003:7A:8E10:8591:B0CE:BE3F:BBC8:B2B2 (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, what you are indulging in, is what we call at Wiki "Original Research" (OR). Of course, there's nothing wrong with that on the face of it, but Wikipedia is more than a platform for publishing opinions.
 * The orientation of the disk, if it's to be compared with the sky, doesn't matter. The Moon and stars too can be viewed from a variety of positions, even rotated "180deg" as you say.
 * It's a trope among archaeologists to assume that the meaning of a curious artifact is a "ritual object", which is a safe (or essentially non-falsifiable) guess because the context has vanished.
 * Kortoso (talk) 22:28, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

A lot of the original articles explained the orientation of the disc. In its original incarnation it seems it depicted a crescent moon and the Pleiades, without attention to strict orientation or scale (for instance, the dimension of the Pleiades is listed as 110 arc minutes, whereas the moon is only 29 to 34 arc minutes), and the orientation was partly based on that. The next additions seem to be more precise measurements, and some say the positioning of the bands support that original orientation. As the disc developed, that discrepancy between the original cartoon and the subsequent precise measurements may have changed the orientation RMMentock (talk) 02:01, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

DIspute over new dating
The State Office for Monument Preservation and Archeology Saxony-Anhalt h as issued the following press release.

"In an article by Rupert Gebhard and Rüdiger Krause, published today in the journal "Archäologische Informations", it is postulated that the Nebra Sky Disc, which is dated to the Early Bronze Age (around 1600 BC), would only be dated 1000 years later to the Iron Age. The colleagues not only ignore the abundance of published research results in recent years, their various arguments also are easily refuted. Gebhard and Krause put forward several key points as a platform for this thesis.

In particular, the correlation of the Sky Disc with the other discoveries of the hoard, whose Bronze Age age is not in question, is put in doubt. Claims are that the soil attachments on the Sky Disc do not correspond with those of the other findings and that the geochemical analyzes of the metals do not support their coherence.

Both of these statements are demonstrably incorrect. According to an essay by Dr. Jörg Adam (then State Office of Criminal Investigation of Brandenburg), who conducted the investigations of the soil attachments for the Regional Court of Halle as an expert, and who was not quoted by the two authors, "altogether ... therefore an origin of both the soil attachments on the Sky Disc (Sp 1) and on the sword (Sp 2) from their presumed location (the extraction point of VM 1) is to be regarded as very probable ... An exceptional position is occupied by the soil attachments on the ax (column 3). A large proportion of the properties and characteristics determined, also indicate that the origin of these soil attachments from the Mittelberg appear probable «. Since the inquiry of the court of first instance was limited to these three objects back then, the other accompanying findings were not examined by the expert at the time and therefore should not be used as an argument against the coherence of all the finds. In view of this, the claim of the two authors that the chisel must be separated as not belonging to the hoard, is not comprehensible.

Furthermore, the statement that the geochemical analysis of the metals argues against the coherence of the findings is misleading. Already in 2008 and 2010 Prof. Dr. Ernst Pernicka and other colleagues demonstrated "that the copper of all parts of the hoard comes from the same storage location". The Mitterberg in the Salzburg region has long been proven to be a deposit whose copper production ended at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC. In addition, Pernicka states: "Analyzes of Celtic [Iron Age] copper alloys show quite different compositions of the main components as well as trace elements and lead isotope ratios". Therefore, from a metallurgical point of view, dating the Sky Disc to the Iron Age is clearly out of the question.

A final argument put forward by Gebhard and Krause is that the Nebra Sky Disc appeared as "a perfect foreign object" in the symbolism of that period. While this is true, this also applies to every unique discovery. The Sky Disc of Nebra would be a foreign object in any prehistoric period.

Due to lack of space, we refrain from discussing the many other inconsistencies in the content of the article here.'We would be happy to provide you with the above publications for your further information as downloads:

Jörg Adam, Forensic Investigation of Earth Attachments on the Sky Disc. In: Harald Meller / François Bertemes (eds.), The departure to new horizons. New perspectives on the European Early Bronze Age. Final conference of the FOR550 research group from November 26th to 29th, 2010 in Halle (Saale). Conferences of the State Museum of Prehistory in Hall 19 (Halle [Saale] 2019).

Ernst Pernicka / Christian-Heinrich Wunderlich / Alfred Reichenberger / Harald Meller / Gregor Borg, On the authenticity of the Nebra sky disk - a brief summary of the investigations carried out. Archaeological correspondence sheet 38 (2008) 331–352.

Ernst Pernicka, Archaeometallurgical investigations on and on the hoard of Nebra. In: Harald Meller / François Bertemes (eds.), The reach for the stars. International symposium in Halle (Saale) 16. – 21. February 2005. Conferences of the State Museum for Prehistory Hall 5 (Halle [Saale] 2010).

Ernst Pernicka / Joachim Lutz / Thomas Stöllner, Bronze Age Copper Produced at Mitterberg, Austria, and its Distribution. Archaeologia Austriaca 100 (2016) 19–55. Doug Weller talk 11:43, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That [the paragraph beginning with, "A final argument put forward by Gebhard...", presumably, after which 92.12.21.28 inserted their assessment in the middle of Doug's larger comment – User:JohnFromPinckney, 10 July 2024] is a logical fallacy founded on a circular argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.21.28 (talk • contribs) 06:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The enclosure is oriented in such a way that the sun seems to set every solstice behind the Brocken ... some 80 km to the north-west
That makes absolutely no sense and is evidence of astronomical illiteracy. The 2 solstices differ fundamentally, and at the winter solstice, the sun cannot possibly set in the north-west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.21.28 (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

 * Please sign your posts with four tildes ~ Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved   -- Calidum  18:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Nebra sky disk → Nebra sky disc – The whole article is written in British English, and disc is the common British spelling used in most non-US sources e.g. BBC, i News, Art Newspaper. Other sources such as use both spellings inconsistently, but it makes no sense for an article title to use US terminology, but the article itself to use UK spellings. As the artifact is from Germany, we would usually default to UK spellings (as Western Europe generally use British English). Joseph2302 (talk) 11:43, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. Spelling consistent with article content. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:50, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Aurora Borealis
I added an interpretation of the arc, and referred to my letter published Nov 2021 in Physics Today, it addresses some of the issues raised in the discussion OR RMMentock (talk) 01:44, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Image with X drawn on it and solstice dates from the year 2022
@Ario1234 do you have the source for this? (And is it considered a fact, or just one possibility, that those mark the solstices?)

However, if you made the graphic, I'm afraid those are the dates of the solstices in 2022. In 1000BCE, the earliest date I could find, the dates were Jul 2 and Dec 29.

In 1600BCE it would "theoretically" have been 600/71=8.45 days later because the precession of the equinoxes "is" 1 day per 71 years according to numerous sources.

(...Except for the minor detail that it is not and has never has been 1:71 in 3,000 year AFAIK... but other than that it definitely is 1 day/71 years. I guess it works out to 360 degrees per 26000 years orrrrr 1 of 5+ other values depending on the source, but the shorter-term values are very fuzzy. Personal prediction: it would have been 5 days later, but might have been anywhere from a few days to 2 weeks later. If anyone has a link to the actual dates, please share!!!)Skintigh (talk) 23:30, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

 * I made it based on similar graphics in various papers and publications, for example this one: https://www.academia.edu/80363367/Die_Himmelsscheibe_von_Nebra_Astronomie_und_Zeitbestimmung_als_Quelle_von_Macht
 * I've changed the labels to summer/winter solstice rather than specific dates. Ario1234 (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Who all, and What happened to all of the people where it "changed hands"?
"The hoard changed hands, probably several times, within Germany during the next two years, being sold ...". Who all were these? And What happened to all of these? Thank you! Misty MH (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nebra sky disc


text:
Talk:Gap Inc.

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"Gap (clothing retailer" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Gap (clothing retailer and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 27 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gap Inc.


text:
Talk:Ma Baker

Untitled
I am pretty certain that this should be "Ma Barker", who fits the description. Never heard of "Ma Baker." But not so sure as to be the person who moves this, especially wimce what's here is pretty minimal. -- Jmabel 07:38, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

The name of the song is Ma Baker, but the name of the criminal is Ma Barker 67.182.22.63 23:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ma Dalton in Lucky Luke definitely precedes the song, so it should be made clear that the Ma Dalton references Ma Barker, not Ma Baker...

Hay, does anyone know one cover of this song, there is this black woman, and during the video she bathes in black water, and the chorus goes Ma Nigga, using a sample or something. Anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwanaunsignedhype (talk • contribs) 23:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Some pretty stupid people editing Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.247.72 (talk) 04:01, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ma Baker


text:
Clonus

Clonus is a set of involuntary and rhythmic muscular contractions and relaxations. Clonus is a sign of certain neurological conditions, particularly associated with upper motor neuron lesions involving descending motor pathways, and in many cases is accompanied by spasticity (another form of hyperexcitability). Unlike small spontaneous twitches known as fasciculations (usually caused by lower motor neuron pathology), clonus causes large motions that are usually initiated by a reflex. Studies have shown clonus beat frequency to range from three to eight Hz on average, and may last a few seconds to several minutes depending on the patient’s condition.

Signs
Clonus is most commonly found at the ankle, specifically with a dorsiflexion/plantarflexion movement (up and down). Some case studies have also reported clonus in the finger, toe, and laterally in the ankle (as opposed to the typical up and down motion).

 * Ankle (medial gastrocnemius)
 * Patella (knee cap)
 * Triceps surae
 * Biceps brachii

Cause
Clonus is typically seen in people with cerebral palsy, stroke, multiple sclerosis, spinal cord damage and hepatic encephalopathy. It can occur in epilepsy as part of a generalized tonic–clonic seizure, and in pregnant women presenting with severe pre-eclampsia and eclampsia. It can also be an adverse drug reaction, such as after ingestion of potent serotonergic drugs, where clonus strongly predicts imminent serotonin toxicity (serotonin syndrome).

Hyperactive stretch reflexes
The self re-excitation of hyperactive stretch reflexes theory involves a repetitive contract-relax cycle in the affected muscle, which creates oscillatory movements in the affected limb. In order for self re-excitation to exist, both an increase in motor neuron excitability and nerve signal delay are required. Increased motor neuron excitability is likely accomplished by alterations to the net inhibition of neurons occurring as a result of injury to the central nervous system (CNS) (stroke/ spinal cord injury). This lack of inhibition biases neurons to a net excitatory state, therefore increasing total signal conduction. Signaling delay is present due to an increased nerve conduction time. Long delays are primarily due to long reflex pathways, which are common in distal joints and muscles. This may therefore explain why clonus is typically found in distal structures like the ankle. Frequency of clonus beats have been found to be directly proportional to the length of the reflex pathway it is found in.

Central oscillator
Clonus, with respect to the presence of a central oscillator, functions on the theory that when the central oscillator is turned on by a peripheral event, it will continue to rhythmically excite motor neurons, therefore creating clonus.

Although the two proposed mechanisms are very different in [theory] and are still debated, some studies now propose the potential of both mechanisms co-existing to create clonus. It is thought that the stretch reflex pathway may be stimulated first, and through its events, cause a decreased synaptic current threshold. This decreased synaptic current threshold would enhance motor neuron excitability as nerve impulses would be more readily conducted, and thus turn on this central oscillator. This theory is still being investigated.

Clonus and spasticity
Clonus tends to co-exist with spasticity in many cases of stroke and spinal cord injury likely due to their common physiological origins. Some consider clonus as simply an extended outcome of spasticity. Although closely linked, clonus is not seen in all patients with spasticity. Clonus tends to not be present with spasticity in patients with significantly increased muscle tone, as the muscles are constantly active and therefore not engaging in the characteristic on/off cycle of clonus.

Clonus results due to an increased motor neuron excitation (decreased action potential threshold) and is common in muscles with long conduction delays, such as the long reflex tracts found in distal muscle groups. Clonus is commonly seen in the ankle but may exist in other distal structures as well.

Diagnosis
Clonus at the ankle is tested by rapidly flexing the foot into dorsiflexion (upward), inducing a stretch to the gastrocnemius muscle. Subsequent beating of the foot will result, however only a sustained clonus (5 beats or more) is considered abnormal. Clonus can also be tested in the knees by rapidly pushing the patella (knee cap), towards the toes.

Voluntary Induction in Healthy People
Gregory Bateson described the induction of clonus in healthy people:

"Balance is a partly involuntary and unconscious business, dependent on 'spinal reflexes.' When provided with appropriate context, these reflexes go into oscillation that is called 'clonus,' a phenomenon that is familiar to everybody and which is easily produced. (While sitting, place the leg with thigh horizontal and foot supported on the floor. Move the foot inward toward you so that the heel is off the floor and the ball of the foot supports the weight of the leg. When the weights and angles are correctly adjusted, an oscillation will start in the muscle of the calf with a frequency of about six to eight per second and an amplitude of about half an inch at the knee. This oscillation is called clonus in neurophysiology and is a recurrent series of patellar reflexes, generated in a feedback circuit. The effect of each contraction is fed back as a modification of tension to the calf muscle. This change of tension triggers the next patellar reflex.)"

In the text, Bateson goes on to describe induction of clonus as a key element of Balinese ritual.

title: Clonus