text:
Talk:Triple J

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Something
I wouldn't, if I knew who they were to start with :) (We didn't get Triple J in my area until 1995)  --Chuq 02:48, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the regional expansion - ideally I'd like this section to specify the areas "expanded" to at each time. I only remember Launceston, Albany, Bathurst and Mackay (as well as three others whose names I have forgotten) that received it in 1995/1996.

As for the most recent changes, I have sourced info from http://www.abc.net.au/corp/hist7_radio.htm (mainly that the expansion occurred in two lots, 1994 and 1996).

''Something missing from the 1990s national expansion section is that the expanded markets had their own local programming slots (or at least Adelaide did) for a couple of years. Club Escape was an influential Adelaide dance music show that ran on Saturday nights. --DaSuthNa (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2018 (UTC) ''

The page above says it was expanded to 44 areas. The list below gives 57 areas. Subtracting the original 9 (capitals + Newcastle) that still leaves 48, so there must be four more additions since the 1996 expansion.

OTOH, this page (JJJ in 1999 thanks to archive.org) says From there the station expanded yet again to 18 rural centres across Australia in January 1995, the first stage in a plan to reach a total of 46 regional centres of the country.

I've done some maths and used archive.org to view triple J's frequency page at that time, and it lists a total of 55 areas. The Albury/Wodonga frequency was doubled up, listed in both Vic and NSW, so that makes 54. That makes the total of 46 regional centres (and 8 capitals, counting Newcastle as regional) make sense.

The three transmitters that exist now, that didn't exist before, are Townsville North (97.5 FM), Wagga Wagga (101.1 FM), and strangely Bathurst 95.9FM. (the Bathurst in 1996 may have been this one )

Check the list below for locations we are still missing.

NSW: Armidale, Bathurst (1996), Bega/Cooma, Broken Hill, Central Tablelands, Central Western Slopes, Goulburn (town), Grafton/Kempsey, Illawarra, Manning River, Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, Newcastle (1989), Richmond/Tweed, SW Slopes/E Riverina, Sydney (1975), Tamworth, Upper Namoi, Wagga Wagga

ACT: Canberra (1989)

NT: Alice Springs, Darwin (1989)

Qld: Brisbane (1989), Cairns, Cairns North, Darling Downs, Mackay (1996), Gold Coast, Mt Isa, Nambour, Rockhampton, Southern Downs, Townsville, Townsville North, Wide Bay

SA: Adelaide (1989), Adelaide Foothills, Mt Gambier, Renmark, Spencer Gulf North

Tas: Hobart (1989), Launceston (1996)

Vic: Ballarat, Bendigo, Goulburn Valley, Latrobe Valley, Melbourne (1989), Mildura/Sunraysia, Murray Valley, Upper Murray, Warrnambool, Western Victoria

WA: Albany (1996), Bunbury, Central Agricultural, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Perth (1989)

-- Chuq 02:48, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Is this a list of locations that don't have confirmed frequencies? If this is a list of frequencies needed, am I correct in presuming that I will need a source even if I live in one of the areas? Matz44 03:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Station history
Info from these sites might be useful for early station history: -- Chuq 07:26, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * http://web.archive.org/web/19990828025123/kali.murdoch.edu.au/cntinuum/6.1/Dawson.html - (found with archive.org)
 * http://www.milesago.com/Radio/2jj.htm

Anyone else surprised by how little of the 1990s lineup is talked about, its skips from the 80s to the regional expansion which started in the mid 90s and missed the whole 1989-1995 line up

6-9 Mikey and Helen 9-12 Angela Catterbs 12-4 Andy Giltre 4-7 Ian & Deb 7-10 Michael Tunn

Has someone whitewashed the 90s history at some point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.185.77.90 (talk) 05:44, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I hate 'official' histories. Double Jay started broadcasting about October or November '74. Under the terms of the licence they were allowed 'test transmissions' before the launch. The only catch was that they had to shut down during prime time - meaning only for a few hours of an afternoon. In those days of AM broadcasting most radio stations would close at night from 10PM or midnight. and start again about 6AM. For those few months Double Jay (by broadcasting all night) was on air each day for longer than almost any other station. The 'official' launch was almost an anti-climax.

Can the article mention Fish Milkshakes? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.229.47 (talk) 21:31, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Unearthed
A couple of questions about changes to the unearthed section: -- Chuq 03:56, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I think it was more of an ongoing thing, than an annual thing?
 * Innocent Criminals (=Silverchair) was, although a Triple J discovery, before the whole Unearthed thing? (I'm fairly sure though, that their 'finding' of this band encouraged them to start the Unearthed project).

Unearthed used to be a competition that was run annually in specific locations (i.e. unearthed Victoria). It has since evolved into an ungoing thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S4119292 (talk • contribs) 09:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Silverchair were discovered by an SBS TV show called Nomad. The talent-search part of the show was a joint production of JJJ and SBS, and its success inspired Unearthed. http://www.abc.net.au/longway/artist_index/silverchair.htm

Silverchair won SBS TV's Nomad's PICK ME competition in June 1994, as the'Innocent Criminals'. They won a day's recording in the JJJ studios to record 'Tomorrow', the winning song, and a film clip shot on Kodak film directed by Robert Hambling. The competition was an SBS initiative and production, JJJ was not involved in the selection of the winning act. simonashford (talk) 13:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Silverchair Recovery Special. 'Pick Me' Nomad for SBS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonashford (talk • contribs) 13:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Triple J / Double Jay
Should a separate article be created for Double Jay? -- Chuq 04:46, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * If not, Double Jay should redirect to Triple J and links to it should be removed.
 * If so, some of the history content from Triple J could be moved there, and it should be linked from this article prominently. Maybe History of Triple J could possibly redirect to there as well, but obviously anything from 1980 onwards would not be in the Double Jay article so it could be an awkward split.

 * I think Double Jay should redirect here. It's still the same station, really, and cutting it out would mean wiping out a large portion of the current article. Ambi 10:55, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Getting this featured
I think this is really starting to look fantastic, after some of the edits made over the last couple of days. I think we're really close, too, to being able to put this up for featured status.

 * 1) I've tried to cut down on some of the editorialising, but I think there's still some opinion throughout this (such as stating that JJJ was "entirely" responsible for so-and-so's success), which probably needs to go before someone objects to it when it becomes a featured article candidate
 * 2) What would you all think of moving the presenters list to List of Triple J presenters?
 * 3) There's still about four programs apparently needing work.
 * 4) *Net 50
 * 5) *The Breakfast Show
 * 6) *Today Today
 * 7) *The Chat Room
 * 8) As far as the images go, this one isn't tagged. Secondly, has anyone been able to work out whether we're going to be covered with these images under Australian fair dealing laws? If so, we should change them to the new template. Ambi 10:55, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * To reply one at a time...
 * I guess saying "was a strong positive influence" would be good enough :)
 * Hmm, I tend to dislike "List of.. articles". However I am planning to create stubs for each so that the shows they have hosted from the past can be moved into there, then they can be arranged three-column style to take up less vertical space.
 * Yeah... I think The Breakfast Show will take the longest to do :) We can probably skip the Net 50 and The Chat Room, as they aren't high profile shows (well Net 50 is, but theres not much to say - its a chart show).  Maybe Creatures/Artery deserves a mention?
 * That linked pic was from the Triple J site. I was hoping to use it as a place filler until I found a real free one on the net, but no luck yet - I have asked around at a few forums so should get one soon!  Might have to ask an expert in copyright law (someone here said they are/know one?) about the CD/book covers.
 * -- Chuq 15:16, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd agree doing more editorialisation culling, leaning on the side of ruthlessness.
 * I'm with Chuq here.
 * The Breakfast Show section is good enough the way it is, I reckon. Sure, they're good and all that but besides being hyperactive at 6:00am what else do they do? The only thing I can think that's worthwhile adding is how they both hassled The Beatie Boys over the phone on Wednesday. :)
 * Both TripleJ and the ABC in general would have plenty of contact points regarding using their images. If it's just for an informational article then I can't see what their problem would be.
 * Airconditioning 04:45, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

the history and programming sections need to be integrated and needs major copyediting. currently the programming section is far too long (it needs some additional sub-sectioning at the very least) and some of the material there would be better under the history section. the programming section should focus on the current/recent programming and have a short summary of the programming history, but much it should be in the history section. there is also quite a bit of repetition of material in the programming section, as it appears two writers have added text that covers the same period. clarkk 11:19, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Possible Wiki Links
I am currently testing an automated Wikipedia link suggester. Ran it on this article, here are the results:

 * Can link market share: ...urveys, usually with less than half the market share of its major commercial rivals.http://...
 * Can link The establishment: ...stralian commercial radio stations. The establishment of Double Jay marked an historic change...
 * Can link Double Jay: ... radio stations. The establishment of Double Jay marked an historic change in Australian...
 * Can link capital city: ... radio licence issued in any Australian capital city since 1932....
 * Can link program director: ...a 1990 commercial radio manager and program director Barry Chapman (ex-2SM Sydney) w...
 * Can link general manager: ... (ex-2SM Sydney) was appointed as general manager to oversee Triple J's network expansion...
 * Can link radio programming: ...he dust had settled on the dispute, the radio programming was not nearly as free-form as it had b...
 * Can link current affairs: ...ection below). It also covers news and current affairs from a youth-oriented perspective,a alt...
 * Can link top-down: ...dually replaced by a more business-like top-down management style and after the controve...
 * Can link Japanese pop: ...special-interest programs including the Japanese pop show Nippi Rock Shop, Arnold Frolow...
 * Can link American music: ...riented grunge style that dominated American music at the same time. ...
 * Can link The Police: ...he huge commercial success of acts like The Police and Nirvana in Australia unquestionably...
 * Can link popular songs: ...est 100'' is an annual poll of the most popular songs amongst its listeners. It has been con...
 * Can link gold medal: ...eing waved behind the presentation of a gold medal to an Australia swimmer at the 1996 S...
 * Can link road signs: ... Australia. *A group of people erecting road signs with the Triple J frequency all the way...
 * Can link Tim Ross: ...(Net 50, -1998-2000) *Merrick Watts and Tim Ross - "Merrick and Rosso"...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these links may be wrong, some may be right; You can leave positive feedback or negative feedback; Please feel free to delete this section from the talk page. -- Nickj 08:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jay/Lindsay links
What to do with the following articles, so far as content and redirects go?

Frenzal Rhomb, Jay and the Doctor, Jason Whalley, Lindsay McDougall

I've set up the first two as their own articles, and the last two as redirects to Jay and the Doctor. I guess it is similar to Merrick and Rosso or Roy and HG, in that they are rarely known for the individual pursuits. (Compare to Adam and Wil, who each have their own "other things" that they are well known for.) -- Chuq 03:04, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Radio ratings
Does anyone know where rating can be acquired for free? It would be interesting to see.. I've heard Triple J's ratings are a lot better outside the five major cities, but would like some numbers to back it up. -- Chuq 04:47, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * The Melb/Sydney ones linked in the header are the only ones I know of. I'm sure it does rate better in regional areas, it's very often the only radio station which plays modern music in rural/regional areas and judging by the callers to shows like super request, a good % of the audience is from regional areas. But I don't have the figures. Psychobabble

You can access them at AC Nielson's Media Research site - http://www.nielsenmedia.com.au/MRI_pages.asp?MRIID=11, plus there is an archive http://www.acnielsen.com.au/radio_archive.asp. Reubot 07:26, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

2005 schedule
- Chat room has not been renewed for 2005.

30 Year anniversary
Triple J is coming up to its 30th anniverary in Jan 2005, and they have a page dedicated to collecting historical info: http://www2b.abc.net.au/triplej/30days30years/ - this could come in very handy! -- Chuq 02:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Target group
I know the article says that Triple J's target group is between the ages of 12 and 25, but the metropolitan radio rating surveys show that they have their highest market share in the 25-39 age range. I don't know how to work this into the article, though. Did Triple J peak in popularity in the 1980s, thus explaining why this age group prefers it despite not being the intended target group? - Mark 08:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to say you've all done a fabulous job. :) --Randolph 09:26, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

None of their presenters are in the 12-25 year old age bracket. Is there evidence this is a true demographic target? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.146.66 (talk) 03:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

JJJ online
I am looking at this:. I would like to include some information about triple J moving online since, to me at least, it's a really important aspect of triple J - especially the podcasts. Any ideas or pointers before I go ahead and add. I thought of adding maybe 1 or 2 paragraphs in the History under a new '2000 onwards' subsection. The website started in 1995 but has probably been more relevant in the 2000 onwards historical division. Thoughts? --Lisa 04:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Jack the love nerd
If someone culd look at that articel and merge it in here if appropriate, would be great. 1 sentence wld probably be enough. Rich Farmbrough 12:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Like a Version?
Is it worth making some mention of Mel's "Like a Version" program here? It's been going for a while, and it seems to me quite a few popular covers are coming from it. pfctdayelise 15:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by S4119292 (talk • contribs) 09:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

2006 Changes

 * Today Today has been confirmed as not coming back in 2006 (replaced by a show hosted by Robbie Buck)
 * Net 50 has been 'retired'
 * Graveyard Shift isnt returning
 * Return to the name "Three Hours of Power"???

Triple J vs triple j
If you look at the ABC website and the triple j website you will see that triple j is written in all lower case. I realise that it isn't possible to write the title in all lower case but shouldn't it be written as 'triple j' throughout the article rather than the present Triple J? --Zig c 10:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

One night stand
Can anyone write more on this subject, Natimark was great. Enlil Ninlil 09:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Programs
I am putting all programs in without much content now, hope someone will fill out. I will do it over the next month. My spelling is also no good. Is this ok or too much info? Enlil Ninlil 01:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

CD Compilations/Releases
It may be helpful to list all CDs released by triple j over the years; Full Metal Racket and Eleven are but two not shown on this page Mdgr 05:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Article Length
I think this article is too long. Perhaps it needs to have an abreviated history paragraph with a link to a main article Triple J History. Also I think the current presenters need to be on the main page but surely the long list of past presenters can be moved to a seperate article List of Triple J presenters?--TInTIn 08:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Audio Version
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/30years/audio/censorship_nwa_1990.mp3 I found this on the web before finding this article.... RealG187 18:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

List of presenters/programs
How amusing. I recently split off the list of presenters to list of Triple J presenters. Now on reading this talk page, I see it has already been suggested be two people in the past - once (when Ambi/Rebecca suggested itover 3 years ago) I disagreed with it! I must have a bad memory. Anyway, it has been done now - referencing it is difficult - not finding the sources, but fitting it all into the table is ..

I have also started on (in my user space) User:Chuq/List of Triple J programs - partially as an easier way of displaying the presenter info. All comments/suggestions appreciated. -- Chuq 08:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Frequency?
It'd be nice to be able to easily find the Triple J frequency on the page. I've skimmed the article and I still can't find it. It's turned what should be a 30 second "maybe I should look that up" into a bit of a hassle. I know it can be found elsewhere but it'd only be a small addition to make the article more useful. Bride of lister 10:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Lack of Sources
Almost the entire article reads like a bad high school paper. There are maybe ten sourced statements in the article. The rest looks like original research. Can we get some sources for this article? 122.104.160.66 (talk) 02:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, parts of it just seem to be someone's opinion, and while I don't for the most part disagree with it, it's not encyclopaedic. Orderinchaos 12:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

 * OK, OK, I'm working on it. Trouble is there aren't many easily accessible comprehensive references (hey, YOU can spend hours in trawling old newspapers if you're so excited about it). I freely admit that a lot of the content in the early section is from my own knowledge of the station (I've been a listener since Day One), but the only half-decent print reference for the early years of the station is Elder & Wales (which I'm working through) and it's very useful but not exactly systematic in its presentation; there are also a few scattered references in Ken Inglis' book on the ABC which I'll add as soon as possible. I understand that former DJ Gayle Austin was writing a thesis about the first 16 years of the station ( but I've not located that yet. Dunks (talk) 13:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Too busy trawling old newspapers for my own area of articles (see this one for a recent example :) I know what you mean though and my comments certainly weren't intended as a slight. I don't think the offending bits were yours anyway. Orderinchaos 06:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Replacement of 'Triple J' with 'triple j' throughout article and talk page
I have just reverted these changes for many reasons: -- Chuq (talk) 10:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Although Triple J just uses the lowercase style "triple j" in its current publicity material (website, logo, etc), it has been "Triple J" in the past.
 * The style "Triple J" is currently used by people outside the station
 * The bulk replace broke some images, some links, and probably (though I didn't test them) interwiki links as well..
 * The bulk replace changed peoples comments on the talk page - fair enough, it was only the case - but still shouldn't change others comments.
 * According to the edit summary it was done by someone employed at the station (as an anon user)

Raw Comedy Awards
RCA missing from Comedy section! Does anyone have any contact with anyone official at triple j? I'd be willing to create an Award stub (with link to this page, of course) for the Raw Comedy Award if I could get some reliable info on it. (I'm not getting anything useful by Googling.)--Tyranny Sue (talk) 04:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

1990 events
I listened to JJ in Canberra in the 80s, it was great, Helen Razor (her band was great too) etc..

When it went national it was fantastic in Melbourne.

At the time in 1990 when Fuck tha Police induced mass firings there followed several days of dreary songs from upper management who stood in for DJs, followed by the noticeable introduction of strong playlisting. For me, this marked the end of a youth-run station as such.

Some of the information about the sackings should be incorporated in the article. I found this online description of the sackings from Tracy Hutchinson, someone very much in the spot:

"‘Fuck Tha Police’ – how I remember the JJJ sackings By mid 1990 the old 2JJJ had become a fully-fledged national network and where we’d previously sailed under the radar with some of the more colourful language contained in the music we sometimes played suddenly we were in the national spotlight. In particular NWA’s ‘Fuck Tha Police’ came in for some criticism by parliamentarians in Adelaide and the West Australian police service who claimed the song incited racial tension. (WA at that time had the highest black deaths in custody rate in the country). They pressured ABC management to ban the song and in an unprecedented and extremely unpopular move station management introduced a censorship policy and banned us from playing the song. We were outraged and in response the station’s daily current affairs program, The Drum, prepared a story on the use of the word ‘fuck’ in the modern vernacular and included just over 20 seconds of the song in the produced story. JJJ management got wind of it and instructed the EP, Nick Franklin, not to play it. He refused to acquiesce, played the piece and was suspended without pay on the spot. The rest of us went on strike but not before we’d rigged up a loop of Heaven 17’s ‘We Don’t Need This Fascist Groove Thing’, which played for sometime before management twigged what was going on. Those were the days…

Sadly our fiesty, youthful defiance was rewarded by each of the fulltime announcers involved in strike action over ‘Fuck Tha Police’ losing our jobs. I chose to resign over the issue before my on-air colleagues, the likes of Tim Ritchie, Tony Biggs, Gayle Austin and Amanda Collinge, were replaced by a new regime of broadcasters. Despite a huge protest rally over our ‘sacking’, that was held at Sydney Town Hall and attended by thousands listeners, we were out on our ear."

Star A Star (talk) 03:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

New Dig JJ Frequency
How about some info on how to find the JJ broadcast channel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.181.71.174 (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Taylor Swift
If the content about the Taylor Swift controversy belongs on Wikipedia, it's at the specific Triple J Hottest 100 article, not here. —sroc 💬 13:30, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added a Talk item to the Hottest 100 page—hopefully copyeditors can put aside their personal musical tastes, as legal professionals have even spoken to the media about the potential ramifications on the terms and conditions of the poll as part of the global media response that has arisen. Additionally, aspects of Australian culture that have surfaced because of the campaign have been discussed. Regards,--Soulparadox (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a two week campaign which will have been forgotten about a week from now. It deserves a paragraph in the Triple J Hottest 100 article, perhaps as part of a section on general commercial music influence on the Hottest 100. As I said on that article, just because something is recent doesn't make it more important.  Keep track of  any useful sources on the talk page, of course. -- Chuq (talk) 10:17, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I am happy to keep track of it. By the way, the recent time frame is not the issue, but rather the magnitude of the discussion. If the eventual response is a change to the terms and conditions, I think that is notable. I also think the level of non-sensationalist discussion is notable—aside from the media "buzz". Regards,

Programming history
Is the Programming history section ( by Guyinsydney) a good idea? Is this sort of thing common in other radio ststion articles? Remember, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. —sroc 💬 15:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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"The Breakfast Show (Triple J)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect The Breakfast Show (Triple J). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 9 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:06, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Sister stations
There doesn't seem to be a consistent section or method for adding info about sister stations. Double J is mentioned at it's point in the "history" section and has it's own article. Unearthed is just a note in the Unearthed section, it seems its dedicated article was deleted. Hottest I've just added as a note in the Hottest 100 section for now. Does anyone else have a preference? -- Chuq (talk) 12:40, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Hey @Chuq! Personally I don't see the need for such a section. By this logic one may assume Double J also needs a section of sister stations as there is no 'central' station. See the BBC Radio 1 infobox – it lists its sister stations as the stations also branded under BBC Radio 1, and not BBC Radio 2, BBC Radio 3, etc. Thus maybe a list of the four stations may work well as a list on the ABC page instead?
 * The Hottest station can be written about under the Hottest 100 section and the Unearthed station can remain under the Unearthed initiative section. P.S. I'm in the process of writing a draft for an Unearthed article. Might publish it within the next week. Thanks and let me know what you think! Marcostev88 (talk) 10:41, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Marcostev88! Interesting comparison with BBC Radio 1 - although I'm not sure how they are structured, I note that article does have a section Online-only sister stations where it mentions them.  Also I'm not sure what you mean when you say as there is no 'central' station - I would think it's unambiguous that Triple J fits that role!
 * I ran into a similar issue when creating Wikidata items for each station - it doesn't allow items to refer to redirect articles (it treats them as if multiple items are pointing to one article).
 * I can extract a copy of the deleted Unearthed article if you like - might have some useful content in it? -- Chuq (talk) 23:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I made the suggested updates to the ABC article. Also have put an old copy of Triple J Unearthed here - User:Chuq/old/Triple J Unearthed - in case it helps.  -- Chuq (talk) 04:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey @Chuq, yeah – after more thought I have to agree Triple J is the 'central' station. I was hesitant to admit Double J is a sister station as it stands on its own, but I can't look past the Triple J drum icon branding in all the station's logos, not to mention the 'Triple J' name in the Hottest and Unearthed stations. Therefore I'd say a section for the sister channels would work well. Sorry about the confusion!
 * Thank you for the link to the old Unearthed article! Marcostev88 (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That's cool - no problem! -- Chuq (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Capitalisation
Related to the immediate previous section.. with the new station using the capitalisation triple j Hottest, it's made some inconsistencies quite obvious. I scoured this page for earlier discussion. Hilariously I found a post where I reverted such a change over 15 years ago! Talk:Triple_J. Clearly they've been using "lower case" for a significant period now so I think it's time I gave in :)  The ABC Style Guide under the section "ABC branding" explains the capitalisation used. No-one agreed or disagreed back then .. anything changed? -- Chuq (talk) 07:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No complaints.. so I'm gonna start. Hope I don't break anything! -- Chuq (talk) 03:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow... this is a big job! Things I've done:
 * Moved triple j, triple j Unearthed triple j magazine, triple j tv, List of triple j presenters to use the lowercase title, including adding or  where necessary;
 * Move relevant templates Template:triple j, Template:triple j Unearthed, etc. for the above.
 * Move talk pages for all of the above pages and templates
 * Updating content throughout all pages listed above to use new capitalisation, including links to other pages
 * Updated links in generic ABC or radio templates
 * Updating double redirects where I could find them
 * Updated Template:triple j so it's red :)
 * Reworded some sentences to not start with Triple j to avoid the capital issue (although have left some - assume leaving the capital 'T' is correct in these cases).
 * Things I haven't done (yet), am not sure about, or other unrelated things I've found need doing:
 * Any Hottest 100 related pages (a huge task)
 * Anything to do with categories (also a huge task)
 * Other triple j pages not mentioned above, such as Triple J's Impossible Music Festival
 * What to do at triple j - refer to it as Triple J before the style changed?
 * Found that triple j tv and triple j magazine are effectively defunct (thought they may have been but I wasn't sure) - have removed from templates where there's no connection, but pages need updating
 * Does Template:triple j Unearthed need to exist? No real content to navigate to.
 * I found List of programs broadcast by Triple J which has very few article-space incoming links and needs significant cleanup/sourcing.
 * Things to note if you want to help:
 * J Awards and Double J are still in capitals
 * Don't update image names (breaks images) or references
 * Look out for mistakes like breaking a redirect as I did here or just weird typos like I fixed here which indicated to me I need to have a break for a bit!
 * -- Chuq (talk) 06:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Good stuff @Chuq !!! All the progress so far is great. A few things from me: the Unearthed template definitely doesn't need to exist, that can be safely deleted. New red template looks great! I can get started on fixing the capitalisation on the most recent Hottest 100 articles – I'll do from 2017 onwards to begin with – and I'll work on the main Hottest 100 article too. Cheers! Marcostev88 (talk) 06:45, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh wow. This is quite the drastic change without even so much as using a requested move. It has site-wide ramifications imo. It pretty clearly fails MOS:TMCAPS at the first call. We don't use Adidas in lowercase. It does suck that you've done all this hard work only for it to likely be reverted, but I'm surprised no one else has called it out yet. We don't follow organisation-specific style guides either. Otherwise (as an example) the Australian Football League page would be littered with references to the Gold Coast SUNS and GWS GIANTS. Gibbsyspin 03:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Reliable secondary sources use the capitalized "Triple J"  , so the guideline at MOS:TMCAPS needs to be followed.   I urge you to self-revert these changes, as I can't see any good reason not to follow the guideline in this case. 162 etc. (talk) 21:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There definitely is no agreed-upon stylisation of triple j. There are some equally-reliable secondary sources that use lowercase: SMH, Rolling Stone, RadioToday, MusicFeeds – The Music uses both stylisations in the same article. However I understand MOS:TMCAPS states if usage is mixed we should opt for the capitalised version.
 * I had gone and updated the stylisation on a dozen Hottest 100 articles, but if a final consensus is made on this matter, I will perform the suitable reverts on the pages I worked on. Marcostev88 (talk) 04:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Timing of change to lower case
This is odd - I thought the change to lower case was in the mid-00s - but according to this article, it's been the case (almost) forever? Herald Sun (screenshot due to paywall) I'm suspecting the source is wrong there.

I know their logo was stylised in lower case before the mid-00s but I didn't think it was typical style to refer to it in text like that, at that point. All the Trove articles I can find from the 1980s show it with initial capitals but thats what newspapers at the time would have done anyway. (those Trove articles are a great rabbit hole to go down for historic sources, btw!)

https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Triple_J shows some variants. As an aside, there is one missing that I distinctly remember in the mid-late 90s (at the same time as #3, or between #3-#4), which used a lower case, sans-serif wide font. Oddly, it appears to have completely disappeared from the internet, apart from the wayback machine (which only goes as far back as 1999). -- Chuq (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that "Triple J" is preferable per MOS:TMCAPS and similar guidance. For consistency, I will also be moving the other affiliated articles identified by QuietHere in the discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Triple j → Triple J – Page was unilaterally moved in July, apparently based on the station's own stylization of their name. However, third party sources do not use that capitalization consistently, as can be seen in the article, and I don't think this overcomes MOS:TMCAPS. If this move is approved, then be sure to remove lowercase title as well. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 07:07, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Strong support - as per MOS:TMCAPS, and this needs to be applied to all other Triple J-related articles which were moved or altered during this 'overhaul' last month. I have nothing against being bold, but I'm surprised the user went ahead with such wide-reaching changes without at least going through an RM process first. Gibbsyspin 08:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I also support moving all related pages. I didn't think to check what else they moved, but I now see at least Triple j Hottest 100, Triple j Hottest 100, 2017, Triple j Hottest 100, 2018, Triple j Hottest 100, 2019, Triple j Hottest 100 of the 2010s, Triple j Hottest 100, 2020, Triple j Hottest 100, 2021, Triple j Hottest 100, 2022, Triple j Hottest 100 of Like a Version, Triple j tv, Triple j Unearthed, and Triple j's One Night Stand that all will need moved as well. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 08:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Support. See discussion above.  The current lowercasing is the result of good-faith, yet misguided edits earlier this year by User:Chuq, which should all be reverted.  There was no consensus, and Wikipedia guidelines should be followed. 162 etc. (talk) 15:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Comment: Sorry, I hadn't been active on WP for a couple of weeks so missed the above discussion. I'm surprised - I thought I was simply putting into action a change that had been requested/attempted before (See Talk:Triple_j and Talk:Triple_j) - and had not been opposed - but had not been done because it was a huge task and no-one was keen to put in the effort, and/or was aware of the templates to render the title in lowercase.
 * The final push for me was the introduction of the new station triple j Hottest which is styled as such, and made me investigate what the correct format was - I came across this paragraph on the official ABC Style Guide
 * "The national youth music service has no capitals unless starting a sentence: I grew up listening to triple j. Some sub-brands take a capital on their modifier: triple j Unearthed. Never lower case: Double J."
 * Which sealed it for me. When it was first raised 15 years ago I thought "It's a short term trend to use lower case" or "It's just how their logo looks, it's not how it's actually used in a sentence" but clearly it's not short term and the style guide quote convinced me. I can see that ABC's style guide being independent of triple j is a grey area.
 * So I'd like to see the previous points taken into consideration, by those voting. If after that the consensus is to move it back to Triple J, I'll help to revert the changes. -- Chuq (talk) 07:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your good faith edits. The reality is that Wikipedia does not bow to various style guides of every international organisation, no matter how established they are. Company style guides, by their design, are internal. It doesn't matter to us if the ABC wants to style it like tRiPlE j, we still use sentence case unless there are extreme mitigating circumstances, which there are not in this case. There has to be an across-the-board standard, hence MOS:TMCAPS. In fact, the whole WP:MOS is worthwhile reading if you have the time. Alas, I still remain in support of the move. Gibbsyspin 11:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you may have misread the 2008 comment at Talk:Triple j. The person who commented was reacting to someone else's change and saying the article should use "Triple J". I support this RM per MOS:TM, MOS:TMCAPS, WP:TITLETM. Note that "TV" ordinarily uses capital letters, so Triple j tv should be Triple J TV. Since these are reverts of recent undiscussed moves, there should be a presumption that should they be reverted. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Moreover, when I checked the sources that appeared to have "triple j" in their headlines, I found that (at least) six of them had actually used "Triple J" and someone had distorted the titles in the Wikipedia citations. Please see this diff. Some sources could not be checked since they were dead links. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the person who commented was me :) I reverted the change as I disagreed with the process (it broke a lot of images and templates, for example). I was referring to the fact that the change was attempted back means it's not a sudden thing. Branding changes over the years and I assumed they'd change back to Triple J a few years later. As it happens, they didn't. -- Chuq (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes, it was you! You're now arguing against your old self. — BarrelProof (talk) 04:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I also haven't changed my mind and still support reverting all page moves for all the reasons listed above. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 08:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Comment The Nom makes this statement: However, third party sources do not use that capitalization consistently. This is based on the sources cited in the article. There are very few independent sources cited that mention "tripple j" (however cased). Of these, the same outlets (eg The Guardian) are cited more than once. While the articles cited are different, they do not represent different editorial decisions. Also, the lowercase branding appears to be somewhat recent and consequently, more recent sources should be relied upon to determine the question. I am not convinced that the particularly narrow set of the cited sources is sufficiently broad enough to be a statistically representative sample to resolve what is essentially a statistical question. I would prefer better evidence. However, in the absence of such evidence, I might support "Tripple j" at the start of a sentence and "tripple j" in running prose. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. I'm a big fan of this manual of style being used in favor of branding decisions.~TPW 13:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Triple J


text:
Bucklin voting

Bucklin voting is a class of voting methods that can be used for single-member and multi-member districts. As in highest median rules like the majority judgment, the Bucklin winner will be one of the candidates with the highest median ranking or rating. It is named after its original promoter, the Georgist politician James W. Bucklin of Grand Junction, Colorado, and is also known as the Grand Junction system.

Voting process
Bucklin rules varied, but here is a typical example:

Voters are allowed rank preference ballots (first, second, third, etc.).

First choice votes are first counted. If one candidate has a majority, that candidate wins. Otherwise the second choices are added to the first choices. Again, if a candidate with a majority vote is found, the winner is the candidate with the most votes accumulated. Lower rankings are added as needed.

A majority is determined based on the number of valid ballots. Since, after the first round, there may be more votes cast than voters, it is possible for more than one candidate to have majority support.

Variants and relationships to other methods
The term Bucklin voting refers to the process of counting all votes on all ballots that are above some threshold, and then adjusting that threshold down until a majority is reached. In some variants which have been used, equal ranking was allowed at some or all ranks. Some variants had a predetermined number of ranks available (usually 2 or 3), while others had unlimited ranks. There were also variants akin to Borda voting in that lower-ranked votes counted for less.

The Bucklin procedure is one way to ensure that the winning candidate will be among those with the highest median vote. When used with a cardinal voting scale instead of ordinal ranking, Bucklin's balloting method is the same as that of highest median rules like the Majority Judgment. However, Bucklin's selection algorithm starts with the highest rated votes and adds lower ones until a median winner is reached, whereas Majority Judgment starts with the median votes and removes them until all but one candidate is eliminated. Due to this difference, Bucklin passes some voting criteria that Majority Judgment fails, and vice versa.

Bucklin applied to multiwinner elections
Bucklin was used for multiwinner elections. For multi-member districts, voters marked as many first choices as there are seats to be filled. Voters marked the same number of second and further choices. In some localities, the voter was required to mark a full set of first choices for his or her ballot to be valid. However, allowing voters to cast three simultaneous votes for three seats (block voting) could allow an organized 51%, or the largest minority in a contest with three or more slates, to win all three seats in the first round, so this method does not give proportional representation.

History and usage
The method was proposed by Condorcet in 1793. It was re-invented under its current name and used in many political elections in the United States in the early 20th century, as were other experimental election methods during the progressive era. Bucklin voting was first used in 1909 in Grand Junction, Colorado, and then used in more than sixty other cities including Denver and San Francisco.

In two states, it was found to violate the state constitution and overturned; in the remainder of states using it, it was repealed. In Minnesota, it was ruled unconstitutional, in a decision that disallowed votes for multiple candidates, in opposition to some voters' single expressed preference, and in a variant used in Oklahoma, the particular application required voters in multi-candidate elections to rank more than one candidate, or the vote would not be counted; and the preferential primary was therefore found unconstitutional. The canvassing method itself was not rejected in Oklahoma.

Satisfied and failed criteria
Bucklin voting satisfies the majority criterion, the mutual majority criterion and the monotonicity criterion.

Bucklin voting without equal rankings allowed fails the Condorcet criterion, independence of clones criterion, later-no-harm, participation, consistency, reversal symmetry, the Condorcet loser criterion and the independence of irrelevant alternatives criterion.

If equal and skipped rankings are allowed, Bucklin passes or fails the same criteria as highest median rules like the Majority Judgment.

Example application
The first round has no majority winner. Therefore, the second rank votes are added. This moves Nashville and Chattanooga above 50%, so a winner can be determined. Since Nashville is supported by a higher majority (68% versus 58%), Nashville is the winner.

Voter strategy
Voters supporting a strong candidate have an incentive to bullet vote (offer only one first-rank vote), in hopes that other voters will add enough votes to help their candidate win. This strategy is most secure if the supported candidate appears likely to gain many second-rank votes.

In the above example, Memphis voters have the most first-place votes and might not offer a second preference in hopes of winning, but the strategy fails, unless other voters also bullet vote, because they are not a second-place choice of competitors.

If all Memphis voters bullet vote, Chattanooga voters could cause their city to win by all bullet voting. However, if all Nashville voters also do the same, Memphis would win on the fourth and final round. In that case, Knoxville voters could do nothing to change the outcome.

In this particular example (but not always), bullet voting benefits one group of voters only if another group or groups do it as well. The example shows that, depending upon who does it, bullet voting may distort the outcome and could be counterproductive for some voters who do it (here, those from Chattanooga and Nashville).

To prevent bullet voting, voters could be required to rank all candidates on the ballot. This would provide the voter with a disincentive to bullet vote, as the vote would not be counted unless all candidates are ranked.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bucklin voting


text:
Talk:Sacking out

It is unlikely that an article would link to Sacking out for the purpose of referring to "going to sleep", therefore, the mention of "Sack out" should be relegated to the bottom, if it is necessary at all. Sacking out is a technical term used within the Equine Industry, and it would appear that, thus far, all incoming links to this article are specifically for that.

 * I think it is appropriate to keep this little article separate. In fact, I think there should more of this kind, so that various techniques can be explained clearly without the emotional baggage that may accompany them in the context of other articles. Lil 18:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that the article should be kept separate. I wasn't aware of this article even being here, and it is very much a stub, but there is plenty to be said for expanding it. For one thing, some people are very much opposed to sacking out because they only know the bass-ackwards version that tries to terrify a horse and they naturally are opposed to such stupidity.

 * Xenophon had the basic idea of sacking out a very long time ago, so we could bring in mention of how he recommends that a groom or other trainer lead a green horse through challenging situations of increasing apparent threat starting out on the edges of the marketplace on a quiet day. The idea is to keep the horse calm even when somebody drops something or whatever little thing happens.

 * There is an American Indian connection with this technique too. Apparently they learned it on their own.

 * The main article on horse training is likely to get to be too long, and sacking out would then become a natural target for farming out, so we might as well keep it here and work on it. P0M 03:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Also, this article would have a natural connection to the training of horses for police use in crowd control, etc., and horses for military use (pulling artillery up steep muddy trails, etc.) because in such cases the horses have to stay calm even when the world is exploding around them. P0M 03:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The article contains little more than the horse training article does, it's barely a couple of paragraphs and really should be merged. Also, to avoid the animal rights types, it should be titled "desensitizing," as basically "sacking out" is simply the colloquial term used by western cowboy trainers and does carry with it the connotations of brutality that predated the "natural horsemanship" movement. (I've seen the old method in action, the reputation is deserved) I should have weighted in on this earlier. If it were to be expanded, that would be another thing altogether, but reight now, when the discussion exceeds the length of the article, why bother? Montanabw (talk) 01:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sacking out


text:
ECW

ECW may refer to:

Professional wrestling

 * Extreme Championship Wrestling (originally Eastern Championship Wrestling), a professional wrestling promotion that operated from 1992 to 2001
 * The Alliance (professional wrestling) (originally the WCW/ECW Alliance), a 2001 World Wrestling Federation stable that included Extreme Championship Wrestling
 * ECW (WWE brand), a World Wrestling Entertainment brand from 2006 to 2010 based on the Extreme Championship Wrestling promotion

Wrestling television programs

 * ECW Hardcore TV, produced by the Extreme Championship Wrestling promotion from 1993 until 2000
 * ECW on TNN, produced by the Extreme Championship Wrestling promotion from 1999 to 2000
 * WWE ECW, produced by World Wrestling Entertainment from 2006 to 2010 based on the Extreme Championship Wrestling promotion

Military

 * Electronic counter-warfare, a set of military measures to counteract enemy radars, missile-guidance, etc.
 * English Civil War(s), a series of armed conflicts and political machinations which occurred in England from 1642 to 1651

Other

 * Eastern Coach Works, a defunct bus body building company from England
 * ECW (file format), an enhanced compressed wavelet file format designed for geospatial imagery
 * ECW model in chemistry for Lewis acid–Lewis base interactions
 * ECW Press, a Canadian book publisher
 * Extreme Cold Warnings are issued to inform the public about active or imminent severe cold temperatures in their region that are expected to last for a while; examples:
 * In the U.S., when temperatures fall to -35 F or colder with winds of less than 5 mph
 * In Canada, based on either the temperature or the wind chill being a certain value for at least 2 hours; the values range from -30 C in the warm temperates to -55 C in parts of the Arctic
 * Extreme Cold Weather clothing for arctic or mountainous areas
 * Extended Cold Weather Clothing System worn by members of the United States Army

title: ECW


text:
Transconductance

Transconductance (for transfer conductance), also infrequently called mutual conductance, is the electrical characteristic relating the current through the output of a device to the voltage across the input of a device. Conductance is the reciprocal of resistance.

Transadmittance (or transfer admittance) is the AC equivalent of transconductance.

Definition
Transconductance is very often denoted as a conductance, $g_{m}$, with a subscript, $m$, for mutual. It is defined as follows:
 * $$g_m = \frac{\Delta I_\text{out}}{\Delta V_\text{in}}$$

For small signal alternating current, the definition is simpler:
 * $$g_m = \frac{i_\text{out}}{v_\text{in}}$$

The SI unit for transconductance is the siemens, with the symbol S, as in conductance.

Transresistance
Transresistance (for transfer resistance), also infrequently referred to as mutual resistance, is the dual of transconductance. It refers to the ratio between a change of the voltage at two output points and a related change of current through two input points, and is notated as $r_{m}$:

 * $$r_m = \frac{\Delta V_\text{out}}{\Delta I_\text{in}}$$

The SI unit for transresistance is simply the ohm, as in resistance.

Transimpedance (or, transfer impedance) is the AC equivalent of transresistance, and is the dual of transadmittance.

Vacuum tubes
For vacuum tubes, transconductance is defined as the change in the plate (anode) current divided by the corresponding change in the grid/cathode voltage, with a constant plate(anode) to cathode voltage. Typical values of $g_{m}$ for a small-signal vacuum tube are 1 to 10 millisiemens. It is one of the three characteristic constants of a vacuum tube, the other two being its gain $μ$ (mu) and plate resistance $r_{p}$ or $r_{a}$. The Van der Bijl equation defines their relation as follows:
 * $$g_\mathrm{m} = \frac{\mu}{r_\mathrm{p}}$$

Field-effect transistors
Similarly, in field-effect transistors, and MOSFETs in particular, transconductance is the change in the drain current divided by the small change in the gate–source voltage with a constant drain–source voltage. Typical values of $g_{m}$ for a small-signal field-effect transistor are 1 to 30 millisiemens.

Using the Shichman–Hodges model, the transconductance for the MOSFET can be expressed as (see MOSFET article)
 * $$g_\text{m} = \frac{2I_\text{D}}{V_\text{OV}},$$

where $I_{D}$ is the DC drain current at the bias point, and $V_{OV}$ is the overdrive voltage, which is the difference between the bias point gate–source voltage and the threshold voltage (i.e., $V_{OV} ≡ V_{GS} – V_{th}$). The overdrive voltage (sometimes known as the effective voltage) is customarily chosen at about 70–200 mV for the 65 nm technology node ($I_{D}$ ≈ 1.13 mA/μm of width) for a $g_{m}$ of 11–32 mS/μm.

Additionally, the transconductance for the junction FET is given by
 * $$g_\text{m} = \frac{2I_\text{DSS}}{|V_\text{P}|} \left(1 - \frac{V_\text{GS}}{V_\text{P}}\right),$$

where $V_{P}$ is the pinchoff voltage, and $I_{DSS}$ is the maximum drain current.

Bipolar transistors
The $g_{m}$ of bipolar small-signal transistors varies widely, being proportional to the collector current. It has a typical range of 1 to 400 millisiemens. The input voltage change is applied between the base/emitter and the output is the change in collector current flowing between the collector/emitter with a constant collector/emitter voltage.

The transconductance for the bipolar transistor can be expressed as
 * $$g_\mathrm{m} = \frac{I_\mathrm{C}}{V_\mathrm{T}}$$

where $I_{C}$ = DC collector current at the Q-point, and $V_{T}$ = thermal voltage, typically about 26 mV at room temperature. For a typical current of 10 mA, $g_{m}$ ≈ 385 mS. The input impedance is the current gain ($β$) divided by the transconductance.

The output (collector) conductance is determined by the Early voltage and is proportional to the collector current. For most transistors in linear operation it is well below 100 μS.

Transconductance amplifiers
A transconductance amplifier (g$m$ amplifier) puts out a current proportional to its input voltage. In network analysis, the transconductance amplifier is defined as a voltage controlled current source (VCCS). These amplifiers are commonly seen installed in a cascode configuration, which improves the frequency response.

An ideal transconductance amplifier in a voltage follower configuration behaves at the output like a resistor of value $$1/g_m$$, between a buffered copy of the input voltage and the output. If the follower is loaded by a single capacitor $$C$$, the voltage follower transfer function has a single pole with time constant $$C/g_m$$, or equivalently it behaves as a 1st-order low-pass filter with a -3 dB bandwidth of $${g_m}/{2\pi C}$$.

Operational transconductance amplifiers
An operational transconductance amplifier (OTA) is an integrated circuit which can function as a transconductance amplifier. These normally have an input to allow the transconductance to be controlled.

Transresistance amplifiers
A transresistance amplifier outputs a voltage proportional to its input current. The transresistance amplifier is often referred to as a transimpedance amplifier, especially by semiconductor manufacturers.

The term for a transresistance amplifier in network analysis is current controlled voltage source (CCVS).

A basic inverting transresistance amplifier can be built from an operational amplifier and a single resistor. Simply connect the resistor between the output and the inverting input of the operational amplifier and connect the non-inverting input to ground. The output voltage will then be proportional to the input current at the inverting input, decreasing with increasing input current and vice versa.

Specialist chip transresistance (transimpedance) amplifiers are widely used for amplifying the signal current from photo diodes at the receiving end of ultra high speed fibre optic links.

title: Transconductance


text:
Pittsburgh Maulers (1984)

The Pittsburgh Maulers were a team that competed in the 1984 season of the United States Football League. Their most prominent player was first pick overall in the 1984 USFL Draft, running back Mike Rozier of Nebraska, who won the Heisman Trophy, collegiate football's most prestigious individual award.

They were owned by shopping mall magnate Edward J. DeBartolo, Sr., the father of Edward J. DeBartolo, Jr., then-owner of the San Francisco 49ers of the National Football League and the Pittsburgh Penguins of the National Hockey League. The Maulers played at Three Rivers Stadium.

History
No one was surprised when two groups filed for a Pittsburgh franchise in the winter of 1983. It did come as a considerable surprise that DeBartolo, Sr. was one of them, given his son's ownership of the 49ers. However, while the other group contented itself with holding a rally to demonstrate support for a potential franchise, DeBartolo stole a march by securing an all-important lease for Three Rivers Stadium. A few days later, DeBartolo's longtime right-hand man, former Steeler Paul Martha, informed the other owners and Commissioner Chet Simmons that his boss was not only applying for a franchise, but already had a lease.

There was some debate over whether to approve DeBartolo's bid, with some fearing that they were effectively allowing an NFL owner into their circle. It was an open secret that Eddie, Sr. and Eddie, Jr. worked closely together. Ultimately, the owners realized that DeBartolo would lend the upstart league instant credibility and unanimously approved his bid, making him the first owner of a USFL expansion team. Unusually, DeBartolo applied for the franchise in his own name, rather than setting up a corporation or partnership. He also paid the full $6.25 million expansion fee up front. A name-the-team contest yielded the nickname "Maulers," after the sledgehammer-wielding workers in steel foundries.

The NFL itself threatened an investigation over a possible Cleveland Spiders-style conflict of interest due to the father owning a USFL team and the son owning an NFL team, an accusation both father and son insisted was not the case. Ultimately, the NFL asked Eddie, Jr. to leave the room during any USFL discussions.

DeBartolo immediately made waves by beginning talks with Dan Marino, a Pittsburgh native and the quarterback for the hometown Pitt Panthers (he ultimately signed with the NFL's Miami Dolphins). Joe Pendry, the offensive coordinator for the 1983 finalist Philadelphia Stars, became head coach.

The Maulers opened their home season with a March 11, 1984 sellout crowd at Three Rivers Stadium facing the Birmingham Stallions, a team led by Cliff Stoudt, who had spent much of the previous season as the starter for the Pittsburgh Steelers, and had been Terry Bradshaw's backup for years before then. Fans bombarded Stoudt with snowballs and ice whenever the Stallions entered the red zone. The Maulers lost, 30-18, in what would be the team's only sellout.

The team finished 3–15, tying the Washington Federals for the worst record in the league. However, while undermanned, they were not nearly as bad as their record indicated. They were in part victims of a very tough schedule. They played nine games against playoff teams and caught a lot of the other teams when they were hot—Oklahoma and New Orleans early and San Antonio and Jacksonville late. Seven of their losses were by fewer than 10 points.

The team was built around the idea that Dallas Cowboys longtime third-string QB Glenn Carano would be a strong starter in the USFL. To support Carano, the team had RB Mike Rozier–the second straight Heisman Trophy winner to sign with a USFL team–and WR Greg Anderson, who caught 63 passes. Carano had his moments but he struggled overall, completing only 53.7% of his passes with 13 touchdowns and 19 interceptions. Backup Tom Rozantz was expected to mostly carry a clipboard, but he ended up playing a lot and he struggled as well. However, either would have been a disappointment, as most fans expected the Maulers to pick Steve Young rather than Mike Rozier. Even bringing in former Arizona Wranglers star WR Jackie Flowers did not turn around the offense. The defense, led by CB Jerry Holmes and DE Sam Clancy finished a respectable eighth in points allowed. In spite of this, they were hobbled by a low-octane offense.

In the middle of a 17-7 loss to the Memphis Showboats, DeBartolo told general manager George Heddleston to tell Pendry to yank Carano in favor of backup Tom Rozantz. Pendry refused to do so, even when Carano dislocated his right arm and could not throw without "tremendous pain" shooting through it. A fuming DeBartolo ordered Heddleston and Pendry to meet with him at his office in Youngstown, Ohio the next morning. Pendry refused to come, and quit rather than be fired. Offensive line coach Ellis Rainsberger took over as interim coach for the rest of the season.

They closed the season against Jacksonville in a torrential rainstorm; one sideline was so badly flooded that both teams had to share the other sideline.

Vote for a fall schedule kills franchise
Despite losing millions of dollars and only winning three games, the Maulers were competitive in most games. They also attracted 22,858 per game, a respectable figure—at least by USFL standards—for an expansion team. DeBartolo was determined to stick it out, even going as far as hiring Hank Bullough away from the Green Bay Packers to become the new head coach. The fan support in such a strong sports town such as Pittsburgh can be attributed to a combination of factors. At the time the Maulers arrived, the Steelers were in the middle of an on-field decline following their 1970s dominance. The Penguins were all but invisible in the Pittsburgh market (though the team had just drafted Mario Lemieux). The Pittsburgh Pirates were experiencing an on- and off-field collapse that would be topped off by the 1985 Pittsburgh drug trials and the team nearly relocating to Denver.

However, just a few days after Bullough's hiring, the USFL voted to switch to a fall schedule in 1986. DeBartolo was a strong believer in the USFL's original spring football concept, and he knew the Maulers could not hope to go head-to-head against the Steelers. Sharing Three Rivers Stadium would have caused serious logistical problems early in the fall, with the Maulers, Pirates and Steelers fighting for dates. A move to Cleveland, closer to DeBartolo's home in Youngstown, was quickly ruled out; even without the daunting task of going head-to-head with the Cleveland Browns (then a solid playoff team) to consider, similar conflicts with the Cleveland Indians sharing Cleveland Stadium at the time rendered this potential move impractical as well.

As a result, just a week after the vote to move to the fall, DeBartolo decided to fold the team without so much as a press conference. He announced that he intended to merge the Maulers with another team. Initially, he struck a merger agreement with the Stars, who had been forced to move to Baltimore after concluding they could not compete with the NFL's Eagles. However, just months later, at the urging of his wife Marie, DeBartolo sold his stake in the Stars and got out of the league entirely. The league's abandonment of Pittsburgh was later cited as a factor in the USFL failing to secure a large judgment in its antitrust suit against the NFL; although it technically won, the jury only awarded it $3 in damages.

Amidst several USFL teams that were "one-season wonders" as a result of relocating, merging with other teams and/or changing team names (all off-season), the Pittsburgh Maulers have the distinction of being the only USFL team to play with no connections to any other cities or teams, neither before nor after their only season.

1984 Pittsburgh Maulers schedule
Sources

Complete roster
Duplicate numbers listed due to roster movement during the season

-- = roster number information unavailable

All-USFL players
The following Maulers players have been named to All-USFL Teams:
 * CB Jerry Holmes

Season-by-season record
Note: The Finish, Wins, Losses, and Ties columns list regular season results and exclude any postseason play.

title: Pittsburgh Maulers (1984)


text:
Ecology of California

The ecology of California can be understood by dividing the state into a number of ecoregions, which contain distinct ecological communities of plants and animals in a contiguous region. The ecoregions of California can be grouped into four major groups: desert ecoregions (such as the Mojave Desert), Mediterranean ecoregions (such as the Central Valley), forested mountains (such as the Sierra Nevada), and coastal forests.

Different authorities define the boundaries of ecoregions somewhat differently: this article follows the definitions of the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF) and the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

Deserts
California's high mountains block most moisture from reaching the eastern parts of the state, which are home to California's desert and xeric shrub ecoregions. The low desert of southeastern California is part of the Sonoran desert ecoregion, which extends into Arizona and parts of northern Mexico. California has two high deserts: the Mojave desert and the Great Basin Desert. The Mojave desert ecoregion is marked by the presence of Joshua trees. The dry cold Great Basin desert of California consists of the Owens Valley, and is classified into Great Basin shrub steppe by the WWF, and into the Central Basin and Range ecoregion by the EPA.

The deserts in California receive between 2 and 10 in of rain per year. Plants in these deserts are brush and scrub, adapted to the low rainfall. Common plant species include creosote bush, blackbrush, greasewood, saltbush, big sagebrush, low sagebrush, and shadscale. Higher elevations have more precipitation, which allows drought-resistant trees to grow, such as western juniper and pinyon pine.

Mediterranean ecoregions
The coast of California from Monterey Bay south to the Mexican border, and inland from San Francisco Bay Area to the Sierra Nevada foothills contain California's Mediterranean ecoregions. This region is divided by the WWF into three California chaparral and woodlands ecoregions, plus the Central Valley grasslands. The EPA divides the region between the Central Valley (ecoregion 7), the Southern California chaparral (ecoregion 6), the Southern California mountains (ecoregion 8), and the Southern California coast (ecoregion 85).

The WWF distinguishes between different chaparral ecoregions based on species endemism. In the south, the California coastal sage and chaparral extends across the Mexican border into northwestern Baja California and Los Angeles. The coastal sage ecoregion is notable for having the highest number of native bees in the United States, although much of the ecoregion is now urbanized. The California montane chaparral and woodlands include the Transverse Ranges north of Los Angeles as well as the Santa Lucia Range on the Central Coast. The montane chaparral consists of a mosaic of sage scrub, chaparral, and montane species, depending on altitude. The California interior chaparral and woodlands form a ring around the Central Valley, covering the hills around the Bay Area as well as the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. The interior woodland ecoregion contains several endemic species, due to unique soil types such as serpentine.

These chaparral ecoregions contain numerous plant communities, including oak savanna, oak woodland, conifer woodlands, chamise chaparral, coastal sage scrub, and coastal grassland. These plant communities often occur as a mosaic, caused by fire.

California's Central Valley was once a large temperate grassland containing native bunchgrasses and vernal pools. Grizzly bear, gray wolf, tule elk, and pronghorn antelope used to inhabit the grasslands. The native grasslands and pools have now been largely replaced by livestock ranches and farms. The Carrizo Plain, where the native grass is preserved, is referred to as the "Serengeti of California".

Forested mountains
The cooler and wetter mountains of northern California are covered by forest ecoregions. Both the WWF and the EPA divide the mountains into three ecoregions: the Sierra Nevada, the Klamath Mountains, and the Eastern Cascades Slopes and Foothills (occurring on the Modoc Plateau).

The Sierra Nevada are home to half of the vascular plant species of California, with 400 species that are endemic to the region. Like many mountain ranges, the plant communities of the Sierra group into biotic zones by altitude, because of the increasingly harsh climate as elevation increases. These biotic zones include montane forest dominated by conifers such as Jeffrey pine and Lodgepole pine, subalpine forest dominated by whitebark pine, up to alpine tundra which cannot support trees. The Sierra are also notable for giant sequoia trees: the most massive on earth.

The Klamath and Siskiyou Mountains are a notable biodiversity hotspot, containing one of the four most biodiverse temperate forests in the world. The diversity is caused by the ecoregion being adjacent to a number of other ecoregions, diverse soil, and having refugia caused by isolation in the last ice age. Some endemic species in the Klamath mountains are limited to only one mountain or valley.

The Eastern Cascades slopes of the Modoc Plateau are characterized by a mosaic of open ponderosa pine forest, grasslands, and shrublands. Although high, these slopes and mountains are in the rain shadow of the Cascade Range, and hence are drier and more open.

Coastal forests
The coast of California north of San Francisco contains the Northern California coastal forests (as defined by the WWF) and the southern section of the Coast Range ecoregion (as defined by the EPA). This ecoregion is dominated by redwood forest, containing the tallest and some of the oldest trees in the world.

The redwood forests thrive in a thin belt up to 35 mi wide next to the coast, where the trees are kept moist by winter rains and summer fog. The redwood forests are also notable for having the highest forest productivity in the world.

title: Ecology of California


text:
Talk:Canossa

The following is not clear to me:

 * ''One of the most dramatic moments in the history of the western church came when Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV knelt in the snow at Canossa in 1077 and begged Pope Gregory VII to lift the ban of excommunication. The pope had prohibited lay control over the placing of clergy in the church (particularly the investiture of bishops) and, by securing the forgiveness of Pope Gregory VII, the emperor was also securing the imperial power that had been jeopardized by his excommunication.

What does "The pope had prohibited lay control over the placing of clergy in the church (particularly the investiture of bishops)" have to do with anything? Was that the reason why Henry had been excommunicated? Because he had defied that prohibition?

Someone knowledgable on this subject please clarify this page. Thanks, -Rwv37 03:04, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow, this has gone a long time without being fixed. I'm researching the topic as I speak (or type, really).  I'll fix it up within the coming days. -  Che Nuevara:  Join the Revolution 13:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The bulk of the information about the "Walk to Canossa" (German: Canossagang) is being moved to Walk to Canossa. Please do not panic, or put it back here -- it will appear in its proper place shortly. If anyone has any other information on the city itself, please put it here. - Che Nuevara:  Join the Revolution 16:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Canossa


text:
Edward J. DeBartolo Jr.

Edward John DeBartolo Jr. (born November 6, 1946) is an American businessman best known for his 23-year ownership of the San Francisco 49ers of the National Football League (NFL). The five Super Bowls the 49ers dynasty won in 14 years were a record total for a single owner.

On February 6, 2016, DeBartolo was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a contributor.

DeBartolo was involved in the 1998 corruption case of Edwin Edwards, former governor of Louisiana. DeBartolo pleaded guilty to a charge of failing to report a felony, and received a $1 million fine and two years of probation in return for his testimony against Edwards. DeBartolo was fined by the NFL, and barred from active control of the 49ers for a year. On February 18, 2020, President Donald Trump granted DeBartolo a presidential pardon.

Career
DeBartolo developed shopping malls as part of a corporation founded by his father, Edward J. DeBartolo Sr. The Edward J. DeBartolo Corporation became one of the largest public real estate businesses in the United States, at one point controlling over two billion square feet of retail real estate space nationwide.

In addition, DeBartolo was actively involved in franchise ownership and sports management, becoming one of the most successful and generous owners in professional sports. His ownership of the 49ers proved especially notable. During DeBartolo's 23 years owning the team, beginning in 1977, the 49ers won an unprecedented five Super Bowls under coaches Bill Walsh and George Seifert: Super Bowl XVI in 1982, XIX in 1985, XXIII in 1989, XXIV 1990, and XXIX in 1995. From the early 1980s through the mid-1990s, DeBartolo presided over a team that had the most wins within a decade in football history.

According to 49ers quarterback Steve Young, DeBartolo's "family approach" to running the team changed the landscape of the NFL. Under it, "the players were what mattered", and that changed the face of the sport as other teams began to follow the 49ers' model. "In most of the league, the players were chattel. What I see in the league today are owners who have made their players partners. That changes the nature of the NFL."

DeBartolo affirms this, saying: "I tried to run the 49ers like a family rather than a business. I viewed the players and myself really, basically, as a partnership. Our goal was to win the Super Bowl every year, and we had to do that together."

Financial and legal troubles
In 1991, DeBartolo arranged to sell the family-owned Pittsburgh Penguins National Hockey League franchise to assist the DeBartolo Corporation in the aftermath of the real estate collapse of 1987. His sister, Denise DeBartolo York, had served as president. Five years later, many family-owned shopping malls were sold to the Simon Property Group, which operated for a few years as the Simon DeBartolo Group.

In 1992, DeBartolo was accused of sexual assault at his Menlo Park condo by a cocktail waitress he met at a local bar. The married DeBartolo, who denied any wrongdoing, was never charged but reportedly paid $200,000 to settle the case out of court.

DeBartolo was involved in the 1998 corruption case of Edwin Edwards, former governor of Louisiana. DeBartolo pleaded guilty to a charge of failing to report a felony, and received a $1 million fine and two years of probation in return for his testimony against Edwards. Edwards was on trial for extortion and other charges, among which were the $400,000 he demanded from DeBartolo to gain a riverboat casino license. DeBartolo received the license, but withdrew from the casino project after he was subpoenaed during the subsequent bribery investigation. DeBartolo was fined by the NFL, and barred from active control of the 49ers for a year.

DeBartolo could have returned to the team, but instead ceded control of the franchise to his sister, Denise York, in 2000, in return for other parts of the family business empire. In spite of the public perception that the transfer had been forced by the league, DeBartolo confirms it was voluntary:

"...Truthfully, the team really wasn't taken away from me. I think it's been a misnomer for many many years. Commissioner Tagliabue did obviously suspend me, but as I was going through negotiations with my family and we went through these negotiations and we went through them with lawyers, obviously and with a judge in Akron, Ohio. It did not come down to that team being taken, it came down to a decision that had to be made whether or not I wanted the 49ers or whether or not I wanted to take the other part of the company. And I figured at that time, and my sister Denise (49ers owner Denise York) was involved totally as was her family. I decided in that meeting in Akron Ohio, that I thought it would be best that I took the other side and my tenure with the 49ers would end then and end there. I don't know if that story has ever been told, it may have been, it may have not been. But, it really was a choice, I figured there was more to do with my life at that time. I had succeeded and done a lot with the 49ers. It meant the world to me, but I figured with my daughters, with them getting older and obviously with all of us getting older and having grandchildren at the time, and them planning on families, that it would be best for me to do what was best to be a good grandfather, be a good husband and dad, and do what I want to do and maybe travel a little bit and spend more time with my family."

Hall of Fame offensive tackle Anthony Muñoz of the Cincinnati Bengals attended a celebrity flag football game at Candlestick Park in 2014 — the last football event before the 49ers' old home was torn down, where he said:

"The final touchdown pass, there were probably 30,000 people in that stadium viewing a bunch of old guys playing a flag football game, but to see (Montana) throw to (DeBartolo) for the final touchdown there and to hear the fans go crazy and to see the admiration from these former players like Ronnie Lott and Joe Montana; that to me was impressive ... to me, that's what it's all about." On February 18, 2020, President Donald Trump granted DeBartolo a presidential pardon.

Personal life
DeBartolo was born and raised in Youngstown, Ohio, the son of Marie Patricia (Montani) and Edward J. DeBartolo Sr., a real estate developer. He went to high school at Cardinal Mooney.

DeBartolo and his wife, Candy, have three daughters: Lisa, Nicole, and Tiffanie. Tiffanie is an author and the director of the film Dream for an Insomniac (1996). In 2007, DeBartolo co-founded Brooks-DeBartolo Collegiate High School in Tampa, Florida with fellow Pro Football Hall of Fame member Derrick Brooks.

DeBartolo also has a half-brother, Edward M. Kobel, who is the current president and COO of DeBartolo Development.

DeBartolo's mother was Marie Patricia Montani DeBartolo, in whose honor the DeBartolo Performing Arts Center at the University of Notre Dame was posthumously dedicated.

Awards and honors

 * Five-time Super Bowl champion (as owner of the 49ers)
 * Pro Football Hall of Fame (class of 2016)
 * Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame (class of 2008)
 * 49ers Hall of Fame (class of 2009)
 * National Italian American hall of fame

title: Edward J. DeBartolo Jr.


text:
Talk:List of municipalities in Michigan

Updated city rankings by the 2020 census
1: Detroit (639,111) 2: Grand Rapids (198,917) 3: Ann Arbor (123,851) 4: Lansing (112,644) 5: Dearborn (109,976) 6: Troy (87,294) 7: Flint (81,252) 8: Kalamazoo (73,598)

Cities like Warren, Sterling Heights, Livonia, Farmington Hills, etc. are not counted, since they're basically bedroom communities. The first 2 weren't even listed in the largest, anyways.

WeaponizingArchitecture (talk) 00:55, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes the 2000 census column should go and we should add the 2020 data. But it's such a large task. The images must at least match the current table. We can change around the images once the table matches the 2020 census. Mattximus (talk) 14:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see a debate on 2000 data. I've seen other pages like this where they list three decades. I'd not be opposed to keeping 2000 data and simply adding the 2020 column. Anyway, yeah, this is quite a task and I've never done it before and wouldn't even know where to begin. If someone has an idea of where to start and how to input the data into the chart without having to tediously go jurisdiction by jurisdiction, I may make an attempt at it. --Criticalthinker (talk) 06:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This article is already *way* too large to keep 3 columns of populations. All featured lists of American municipalities just show the current and previous census. Strongly oppose keeping three columns for accessibility reasons. Mattximus (talk) 14:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that: (1) the image-caption rankings should be current (2020 Census); (2) the image-caption rankings should match the table below; and (3) updating that table to 2020 is a lot of work that I am also unable to do. I have proposed an intermediate short-term fix in my latest edit, making the gallery caption explicit that the rankings are from the 2020 Census (and citing a secondary source that includes that ranking). While it's not perfect, it at least should help clarify for the next person who, like me, noticed the mismatch between the captions and the table but did not immediately notice the table was not current. Hopefully someone can update the table soon, though. --EightYearBreak (talk) 12:44, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Kathryn Jones
Keep it in 2600:1004:B20A:2E5E:7044:47FE:3959:98A2 (talk) 21:41, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Table far too large
Thanks for beginning to update this table which was quite out of date! We do need to remove the duplicated 2010 column as well as the far out of date 2000 column along with the second percent change column (from 2010-2000 is out of date, all we need is the 2010-2020). The table is already enormous so these three columns have to go. Mattximus (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd oppose this. Change between three censuses is not a completely unheard of way of organizing populations tables on Wiki, and I think the info is worthwhile and not cumbersome. My only change would be, perhaps, the order of the table. I'd list 2000, 2010 & 2020 populations right next to one another and then the 2000-2010 and 2010-2020 columns next to each other, and perhaps make clear land area and density numbers are from the most recent Census. But other than that, I'd oppose taking any columns out of the table. --Criticalthinker (talk) 04:44, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The table is a complete mess right now, including 2 columns for 2010 population... the sheer size of this table may run afoul of accessibility issues. There are no featured list of populations of municipalities that include 3 censuses over 20 years (!). Mattximus (talk) 02:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Then, take out the duplicate column. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Criticalthinker (talk) 07:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Would it not be better to revert to a complete and well formatted (if outdated) list, than remove the one duplicate column and have a completely broken list with mostly blank spaces? I would support that. Mattximus (talk) 18:06, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No. I oppose this and the original proposal. I support removing the superfluous 2010 column (the uncompleted one). Criticalthinker (talk) 04:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, looks like this may have to be a reversion, otherwise, removal would be tedious. Anyway, we need more opinions than just Mattximus' and my own about how to improve the table. I've already made my opinion known on this: Keep three census'-worth of population data; I'm willing to negotiate the rest such as only including a pop. change column for 2010-2020. If consensus is found on just inclyding 2010 and 2020 population data, well, it will be what it will be. But I oppose going back to that. Criticalthinker (talk) 10:16, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why not just copy the format of the dozens of featured list of municipalities? I don't see why Michigan should be different than all the others. Mattximus (talk) 18:05, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought it was agreed to revert. This new table is broken and only has a few 2020 data points. The old one is complete, but outdated. Didn't we agree above that it was preferable to have a complete and correct table, than a broken and mostly empty table? Mattximus (talk) 16:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * We agreed to a reversion. We did not agree to a reversion that'd remove 2020 data. I'm not sure what you're talking about it having a "few" 2020 data points; it has 2020 population data for nearly every municipality in the state save for some "A" and "B"-named cities, villages and townships. Removing that data is non-negotiable on my end. If you're like to bring this dispute to a larger audience, that'd definitely be something I'd like to see done. Criticalthinker (talk) 09:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I started adding cells with zeroes for the 2020 census column and the new 2010 census column. It was going fine until some point past Portage, when it appears that I have hit some sort of maximum number of cells. The more cells I enter, the more cells at the end have error messages. The first error is a safesubst error. Not being knowledgeable in any way about how to fix this, I suggest we take Mattximus's original advice and get rid of the old population columns (old 2010 and 2000). Unless anyone can think of a better fix... Ken Gallager (talk) 17:20, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I still feel strongly that there should not be 2 (!) columns for 2010 population and that the 2000 population and 2000-2010 change columns are too old to be relevant here. That would make the table significantly smaller. Mattximus (talk) 21:10, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd now be supporitve of removing the second one and the 2000-2010. That's as far as a compromise as I'll go. I think the 2000 population column is worthwhile in showing a trend, something you can't do with only two data points. Criticalthinker (talk) 21:20, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Removing the second 2010 column and the 2000-2010 column will work. I'll start working on it off-line. Ken Gallager (talk) 12:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Columns removed; 2010 values are now in the new 2010 column. 2020 populations still need to be added. --Ken Gallager (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

2020 census data for townships and CDPs
I think every individual city and village article has been updated with 2020 census data, as far as population and area statistics. However, I can't seem to find the conclusive source that lists the same information for townships and CDPs. I am casually going through township and CDP articles and trying to update this information, but I am concerned that some census data may be inaccurate. I recently updated the list of census-designated places in Michigan article for the 2020 census, but some of the information may be inaccurate.

I often use this 2010 census document for population and area statistics for township and CDP information, which seems simple and accurate. There are a ton of mirrored unofficial websites listing population statistics, but I haven't been able to locate the official report for the 2020 census. I recently updated the Arthur Township article and several others with 2020 census information, but I'm confused as to which population statistics are the most reliable before I continue using questionable sources in future edits. For the Arthur Township article, I used 795 as the population for the 2020 census and the same area statistics from the 2010 census. However, here are conflicting Arthur Township population counts:

 * 1) censusreporter.org — population 790
 * 2) michigan.gov — population 676
 * 3) michigantownships.org — population 795

I know cities and most villages have more updated information, but many townships don't seem to have accurate 2020 census data. I just want to know if there is a reliable source for township data before I continue updating articles with potentially unreliable information, especially as other users have also edited township articles with questionable information (included one newer editor who updated some articles with "2021 census" information 🙄). If no accurate and reliable information is available, I will just continue using 2010 census data and remove/revert updated information for the time being when it comes to individual township articles. —Notorious4life (talk) 02:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

 * I mean, the most accurate data would be at the Census Bureau website. There are a whole host of tools and files, there, to find population data: QuickFacts, TIGERweb (for area), census.data.gov, etc. There is no need to deal with third-party sites, honestly. Census.data.gov would probably be the easiest one by which to compile a list of all places and minor-civil divisions (I don't personally have much use for CDPs, but those are there, too). Criticalthinker (talk) 10:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of municipalities in Michigan