text:
Talk:Vascones

Comments 2004-2005
Relation to the Basques is (to say the least) controversial. Nope, apparently not very, it's just everything before them that is controversial.

There is one dialect of Gascon still alive in Spain today, Aranese, spoken in the Vall d'Aran. -- Jmabel 08:49, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Vascon is an English word, and propose to change the title to Vascones. Mark O'Sullivan 10:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

There are some wrong information... Visigoths didn´t get to stablish in basque country, they said they defeat basque more than 20 times.. And muslims get Spain when visigoths still were trying to get Pamplona, in the middle of vascones land.

Other wrong points: Aquitania should be populated with vascones in part. But Aquitanian lenguage is obviusly a Basque dialect, or a lenguage inside of Basque Lenguages group(new theories say that current basque lenguage is the last alive lenguage of a bigger lenguage groups). And you can find the first written words in Basque in Aquitania, dated I.a.C.

Vascones just were a group inside of a Bigger same group. I mean, a tribal group inside of proto-basque culture. If you see the dialects division by territory and Roman division of human groups in the area. You could find they have a big similarity. Where High-navarrese is spoken, romans placed vascones, where Autrigones are placed, currently You could find gipuzkoan dialect, Caristios=bizkaian dialect... and you could get a strong relationship between current dialects and roman indications.

-

I'm getting more worried by this entry. There seems very little hard information in it. Can we have some sources, please? Otherwise I think we should cut it ruthlessly down. My Lewis and Short shows three Latin authors using the term Vascones. Is there any other information on the Vascones?
 * There's Pliny the Elder, who doesn't give precise boundaries, though the tribe are in Hispania Tarraconensis and clearly near the Pyrenees.
 * There's Juvenal, who makes a passing reference to the Vascones in extremity drinking blood: the notes to my (Peter Green) edition of Juvenal explain this by pointing to Quintilian Declamationes 12 "and other references cited in a valuable note by Friedlaender (pp 584-585)", and adding "After the death in 72 BC of the rebel Roman general Sertorius, the Vascones' capital, Calagurris, was besieged by the Romans under Afranius, and the sufferings they endured became proverbial". Green gives for Friedlaender two references: one is D Junii Juvenalis Sat. Lib. V mit Erklaerenden Anmerkungen, 2 vols Leipzig 1895 reprinted 1 vol Amsterdam 1962, the other Roman Life and Manners under the Early Empire, tr J H Freese & others, 4 vols, London 1908-13 (presumably the reference here is to the first, but I have not checked).  Calagurris in L&S is said to be Calahorra (on the Ebro in historic Navarre), and the birthplace of Quintilian, no less.
 * There's Paulinus of Nola, in his tenth poem, a long verse letter to the Bordeaux academic, tutor of (I think) Gratian, and sort-of politician, Ausonius, but that is not hugely useful.

As to the last anonymous contributor above, as far as I know there's no evidence for Vascones in Gaul before the barbarian invasions (though there were obviously close links - Caesar mentions this specifically). I don't know the sources for the Völkerwanderung period, but anything relevant ought to be in Thompson's The Goths in Spain - I've got a copy somewhere in Spanish, but I can't lay my hands on it at present.

I think I'm proposing a radical redraft on the basis of these notes.

Mark O'Sullivan 16:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Some notes after the revamp
Strabo is the main source, I think. I've read him but also Pliny and confuse what belongs to each one. Plus all the secondary references...

Vascon is the Lat. singular for Vascones. But I strongly favor the move to Vascones, after all they are an ethnic group, hence a plurality, and also it is consistent with other related entries as Aquitani, Varduli, Caristii, Autrigones and Cantabri.

The information on Middle Ages Vasconia is now in Duchy of Vasconia. --Sugaar 11:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Domuit Vascones

 *  but for all their history they remained fighting against the Vascons. Each Visigothic royal chronicle ends with the same ritual sentence: ...et domuit vascones (...and submitted the Vascons)

Removed after the doubts I enumerated in Talk:Kingdom of Navarre. --Error 01:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Auñamendi has nothing relevant on domuit. --Error 02:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I would ask Wllacer to make one of his primary researches but it seems to me that you are just giving too much credibility to that incendiary pseudohistorian called Pío Moa.
 * Auñamendi Encyclopedia does have some references to Gothic Kings campaigns and claims of domination on the Vascones, though I can't say for sure if the sentence "domuit Vascones" was a ritual one (as has been claimed), something that appears in one or two chronicles and was recycled as topic phrase modernly or just nonexistent at all.
 * Auñamendi: Ducado de Vasconia dwells in depth on what happened in the High Middle Ages between 602 and the foundation of the Kingdom of Pamplona and the beginning of the use of the term Gascony north of the Adur. I have used that info to create the article on Duchy of Vasconia (not a mere translation though).
 * It mentions one by one most of the campaigns by Goths, Franks and Muslims. Some of that info should be here surely. Would you care to do that? (my wikistress is somewhat high). --Sugaar 02:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've almost completed a survey on MGH AA Chronica Minora (vols 1 to 3) where almost all the chronicles about Visigothic Hispania   (Hydatius, John of Biclar, Isidore and continuators) were edited.  The famous "domuit vascones" does not appear anywhere. In all, six campaings (aprox. 581, 589, 611, 631, 647 and 672) are recorded. Btw. as I already stated Moa this time is relying on Armando Besga, which is a well respected scholar in this area.Wllacer 10:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * So we have 6 campaigns (only?) and no one of their historical mebntions claims in any form to have subdued the Vascones? Please clarify.
 * I am missing at least two campaigns in your recount: that one of 574 when the Goths founded the Duchy of Cantabria and the latter one by Roderick in 771 coincident with the Muslim invasion. The campaign of 611 is, according to Estornés, two: 610 and 612, one under each king: Gundemar (610-612) and Sisebut (612-621). --Sugaar 17:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I haven't been able to locate more, and the volume misses no major visigothic source. There are no two similar descriptions, (none, obviously, ending in a visigothic defeat) and none uses the phrase "domuit vascones". The most similar form is from the "Epitome Ovetensis"..feroces Bascones in finibus Cantabriae perdomuit. It's only hack is that it's written in 883 as an introduction to the ..."Albeldense"

 * I've ommited the 711 campaing (Roderic's) because, probably didn't happened. Let me explain. If we trust the Muzarabic Chronicle of 754 (in the MGH as Chronica Hispana DCCLIV), as most modern historians tend to follow (Collins, for instance) after the death of Witiza, the visigothic realm was in a state of virtual civil war, with at least one anti-king (Agila II -attested otherwise- controlling much if not all Tarraconensis and Septimania. Not exactly the ideal conditions for campaigning around Pamplona ...unless it was a stronghold of Agila.

 * (Writing from memory) With the one at 574, i think you're refering to the campaign when Leovigild broke the power of the cantabrians, destroying Amaya and Cantabria (Rioja). Vascones are not mentioned there. A few years later Leovigild campaigned against some unlocated Ruccones. There were times when some saw them as a form of "vascones", but nowadays they are usually located somewhere in Lugo. Suevians fought also against them, and the series of campaigns starting from 574 were consistently moving east to west cornering the suebian kingdom.

 * The account in Isidore about Gundemar is not a model of clarity. Perhaps Estornés is using a source i've missed.Wllacer 01:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I was yesternight too unconcrete. First, as they weren't "humanitary aid" expeditions, the stated results are as unpolitically correct as can be expected. But this thread is about the appearance of a concrete formula.
 * Thanks for putting me in question. I slipped a mistake, instead of 631 it should be 621 (the first, not the last year of Suintila
 * Some of the expeditions (589,621,647,672) are justified as defensive/retaliation/police operations; And one (672), is written as it happened linked to other internal troubles, and -what deserves further study- merovingian intervention.
 * Estornés and Isidore rechecked for the missing campaing. Sisebut is said to have campaigned (without year) against Astures and Ruccones. Estornés does count this last one. see above why I don't.
 * And last, but not least, I forgot to mention that Roderic's campaign does not appear in christian sources, and, f.i. Collins' "Early Medieval Spain" tells it as part of the (late) arabic versions of the Conquest. Wllacer 10:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Do you think that "Cantabrians" and the Duchy of Cantabria were not Basques? True that the name is not used and Amaya is clearly in formery Cantabrian territory (more or less) but the rest of the account rather seems to point to La Rioja and other areas populated in Ancient times by the Autrigones primarily, all them mostly admitted to be Basque-speakers.
 * Basques were naturally trying to regain control of the Ager Vasconum (i.e. La Rioja) and Visigoths were not eager to allow that. Surely they were simply unable to keep real control of the Saltus at all. I wonder if the end of the expeditions in 672 means that Visigoths just lost control of La Rioja (Cantabria) totally by that time, else we should expect further fighting. --Sugaar 22:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The more I know the less I'm sure of anything. As this is not a matter of scoring points or to set up a list of grievances, if the source says "Cantabrii", "Cantabria" they go to one list, if the source says "Vascones" they go to another. If the source mentions both, it will depend on the context. Doing it otherwise is only the best way to get lost. To use modern terms for ancient realities is the second best one.
 * The 672 (rather 673, actually) expedition is exceptional in many ways. Nor only, as i wrote earlier because of its context, but also because it is the only one (relatively) well documented in the sources by a contemporaneous and, perhaps, direct witness. It can be found in Historia Wambae Regis (MGH SS rer Mer. Passiones vitaque ... vol III, pg 507 passim) written by Bishop Julian of Toledo. Despite the big words, it was just a week long "razzia", which ended as soon as the "vascones" agreeded to pay ransom ("gifts" in the original) and their taxes. Its location was set "in partibus ... Cantabriae", which, from the context, seems indeed to be somewhere in the Rioja.
 * After that, the Goths hardly gave up the area. The creation of the Duchy of Cantabria is traditionaly credited to king Erwig, Wamba's succesor. And that the witness for the title, although late, unmistakenly points to the last years of visigothic rule. If absence/presence of a bishop from a Council of Toledo means something (you know i'm not that sure, at least for absence), I'd say its telling that from the four attested wisigothic bishops of Pamplona, two of them are attested in Toledo after that date (See the Spanish Wikipedia) --Wllacer 10:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There's some discrepance re. to where Visigothic Cantabria was and the only certain reference is Amaya and, then, the Riojan-Riberan apparent connection with "Cantabria City" (i.e. local legends of refugees from its destruction, Chronicles that mention the Goths campaigning at Olite, monastic legends, the toponymic "Sierra de Cantabria"...). So, when writing the stub on the Duchy of Cantabria I assumed the classical position that it was south of the mountains in the Upper Ebro basin.
 * Not sure when the name of the Duchy appears for the first time but the destruction (conquest) of Cantabria is clearly among the deeds of Liuvigild.
 * How do you know that "Goths hardly gave up the area"? I am under the strong impression that their domain was always weak, unstable and never going much way north of the Ebro. Goths could gather large armies sure but those armies weren't stable, the very fact that they were campaigning all the time in the same region shows the weakness of their posession.
 * The presence of the Bishop of Pamplona in Spanish synods says nothing to me: surely ecclesiatical affairs were important for the Goths but it's not clear how important they were for Basques and their traditional local self-government. The absences say maybe more than the presences, where the Bishop could be as an invitee, more as a diplomat than as standard member. Whatever the case, the bishop needed a connection outside the country, and this could well be provided by Toledo, that is way closer than Rome.
 * Not once the Goths (or anyone else before the Arabs) are mentioned to have taken Pamplona.

--Sugaar 14:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Last first. Pamplona is cited twice in visigothic chronicles, both times twined to Caesaraugsta. First in 467 as the FIRST conquered hispanic town by the goths, and 541 when it was lost (temporally, it seems) to the franks (Both cites, MGH AA. Chronica Minora, vol I, pg. 664 and 223 respectively).
 * Pamplona also appears on two lists of bishoply sees under visigothic rule which for sure postdate the elevation of Toledo as metropolitan see (c. 600) (same volume pg. 573 and 382). And don't forget the well known "De laude Pampilona"
 * As for the council of Toledo. Recheck your sources on Visigothic Hispania. Rome (if mattered seriously at the time) is far easier to contact thru Toulouse (or Eauze for that matter) than Toledo.
 * The question of the frequent absence of pamplonese bishops has been recently (1997) adressed by two articles in "Hispania Sacra", one by J.J. Larrea and the other by K. Larrañaga (both UPV-UHE), the first seeing nothing unusual, the second pointing to the weak visigothic control in the North, which allowed only sporadic appearances. To be honest, the attendees after 670 were not the bishops but their vicars (according to Moret, "Antigüedades de Navarra"), to be precise the same person (or two equally named). This does not look like "clerical courtesy".
 * I warned you already about the problem with Cantabria, when we discussed the "Albeldense"..In the case of the 672/3 event, I bet for Cantabria (Rioja), because the route Wamba follows afterwards to march against Paulus, is from Calahorra to Huesca, which holds, IMHO, most sense if the "razzia" was in that area.
 * The title of duke of Cantabria is recorded, at least, in the "Albeldense" for Peter of Cantabria (fl. c. 710) . The meaning of it, it extent, and its weight for later events, has been since ever (and probably will ever be) source of wide discussion between medievalists Wllacer 17:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Move?
I suggest to move to Vascones, now a redirect page.

Reasons: as ethnicity, they are a plurality and some have asked for that already above. The only name recorded is Vascones (and variants like Barscunes), whose obvious singular is Vascon.

Additionally all the other realted ancient tribes of the area, like Aquitani, Autrigones, Cantabrians, Caristii, Varduli are in the (historical) Latin plural form.

Please discuss.

Support. Do it. Vascon is unknown in English and would not have been correct even in Latin (the singular there would have been Vasco). In any case, Wikipedia uses plurals for peoples. And rew D alby 19:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Not sure if I'm going too fast but I have already requested the move. I doubt anyone would oppose it anyhow. The reasons are very clear and not controversial. --Sugaar 00:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Article moved, per request. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Singular of Vascones
Some people have sustained without providing any rationale in the discussion that the singular of Vascones is Vasco.

I think that's absolutely wrong. Per the Latin declensions entry, it must be either Vascon or Vasconis. The second form I have never heard of but the first one is common at least in Spanish, where the plural in -es is derivated from atin 5th declension apparently (or at least simmilar in mechanism, like in French but not like in Italian, that follows mainly the 2nd declension: plurals in -i).

The name Vasco (and variants in other languages like Basco, Basque, etc., and rare archaic forms as Basclensis) is a medieval evolution. I'm not sure of the rationale behind (if any) but the documents seem to speak in this order:
 * 1) Barscunes (apparently from Celtic bhar-: marche or mountain land)
 * 2) Vascones (as attested in Roman and early medieval documents, first as tribe then as generic for Basques)
 * 3) Vasconia - i.e. "country of the Vascones": Vascon+(n)ia (in Medieval texts and up to present). Derived: Wasconia and eventually Gascony.
 * 4) Vasco: maybe from Vasconia minus -nia. Or maybe just a drop off of the final n of Vascon for other unknown reasons. Attested since late Medieval times in different variants

Whatever the case, I have yet o see any reasoning for the defense of Vasco as Latin singular of Vascones. Per the Latin grammar it just makes no sense. --Sugaar 05:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * There's no need for reasoning. Here's a source:
 * Basque ... member of a race inhabiting the slopes of the western Pyrenees; their language ... [Borrowed from] Fr[ench] Basque; [borrowed from] L[atin] Vascō (in pl[ural] Vascones, [as found in] Juvenal, Pliny) which has also given Gascon.
 * C. T. Onions, Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology (1966) p. 78.
 * Incidentally, this is the Latin 3rd declension, not 5th declension. The form is parallel to many other Latin words, for example, dictio, plural dictiones (English "saying" or "diction"). And rew D alby  14:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Maybe I should add that the line (macron) over the o is used only in linguistic dictionaries and grammars, to show that this final -o was a long vowel. The macron isn't used in normal writing, so Vasco (not Vascō) is the Latin singular form that ought to appear in the article. And rew D alby  14:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... But it's not so clear, I suspect. Auñamendi Encyclopedia says: El gentilicio "vascon". El gentilicio castellano actual vasco deriva del latín (también en transcripción griega) uasco, tema en -n, oblicuo vascon-, plural vascones, todos ellos acentuados en la sílaba inicial (váscon, váscones), bascli en síncopa. Not very clarifying, I must admit. (Note: I'd translate into English but I'm unsure about linguistic terms such as "gentilicio" and "oblicuo").

It is noticeable that the form "váscones" (not modern Spanish: "vascones") actually is found toponimy, for instance Váscones de Zamanzas (a village of northern Burgos province). Also follow this stress rule vasco, basco and basque, but not Spanish vascón.

But anyhow the I don't yet see very clear the singular being vasco and not vascon (or both). Apparently it's only registered in plural form (AFAIK), so we could well either leave it that way (without singular parenthesis) or either write a section in ethymology and linguistics of "such important word".

If we choose the second, we may find some help also in Auñamendi: "Vascones", where it reads: El gentilicio "vascon" aparece por primera vez en las fuentes grecolatinas y en monedas acuñadas entre los s. II y I AC en letras ibéricas y en un nominativo plural celtibérico que se lee barscunes o bascunes, en una ceca cercana a la actual Pamplona v. moneda. Tovar (entre otros 1987) supuso que este exónimo es indoeuropeo, de una raíz bhar-s-, bien atestiguada en celta con la significación de "cumbre", "punta", "follaje", con lo que la etimología podría apuntar hacia algo así como "los montañeses, altos o altaneros". Sería, pues, el apelativo que sus vecinos depararon a los antiguos vascos, aunque no hay que olvidar que existe una raíz preindoeuropea bar- que de nota "límite, extremo, frontera, marca". Aditionally it may be mentioned Tovar's theory of basoko (mentioned later in the same entry) and maybe even that other one that suggests it's transliteration of eusko (quite unlikely in my humble opinion), like the Auqitanian tribe of the Ausci (who actually seem related to Aux).

Just for the record. (If you need translation, please ask). --Sugaar 17:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * As Andrew Dalby correctly points out above, the well-attested Latin formation Vascones, which is a plural (terms referring to a people or inhabitants of a place - called gentilicios in Spanish terminology - are usually plural) definitely implies a Latin nominative singular form Vasco (with a long o, as Andrew points out). That is a matter of basic Latin grammar. Some gentilicios are not actually attested in the singular form in old writings, but Andrew says that Vasco is, which makes it not just an implied form but a historically attested one.

 * The reason why the Spanish-language sources quoted by Sugaar say vascon, not vasco, is simply because they are in Spanish, not Latin. Behind this lies a funny Spanish habit (funny in the eyes of non-Romance speakers, at least) of "translating" words in classical languages into the modern Spanish equivalent rather than actually using the name in its original classical form. I'll give you an example: the classical Latin author Cicero, is Cicero in his own language, Latin, and in English, for example, he is referred to by that name, Cicero, but in Spanish he is called Cicerón, which is a Hispanicised form of Cicero. It doesn't mean that Cicerón was his name in his own time and language, but Spanish speakers and writers speak and write as if it was. So when the authors of Sugaar's source, writing in Spanish, say that the Romans' name for an X was vascón, what they are really saying is that their Roman name, translated into Spanish, is vascón. As a matter of fact, in Latin, it would be vasco (with a long o). It's a strange logic, I know, but there you are.

 * Thus it is apparently the case that the Latin denomination in Roman times was vasco or uasco (VASCO, actually). However, it seems to me that Spanish vasco is unlikely to have developed directly from Latin vasco, a nominative, since the normal source is the accusative. So in Castilian the expected outcome from Latin vasco (gen. vasconis) would be vascón rather than vasco (just as the Spanish word that comes from Latin ratio is razón, not *razo, for example). Which leaves us, once again, with the problem of how to account for the Spanish, Gascon, French and English forms (vasco, basque etc.). Any suggestions, Andrew? Cheers, Alan --A R King 18:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I wrote the following before I had seen Alan's comment. I'll add it in anyway for what it's worth!

 * Thanks for your reply, Sugaar. From Auñamendi Enciclopedia I understand and agree with this: "El gentilicio castellano actual vasco deriva del latín (también en transcripción griega) uasco, tema en -n, oblicuo vascon-, plural vascones" (uasco in Latin is the same as vasco, because in Latin there was only one letter that was written either U or V). The oblique cases have the -n- insert: they would be vasconem (accusative), vasconis (genitive), vasconi (dative) vascone (ablative). I say "would be"b because I don't know if any of them is actually recorded. The nominative case, which is the one normally cited in reference works, remains vasco, or uasco if Auñamendi Enciclopedia prefers that spelling.

 * The reason why medieval and modern forms in various languages are Vascón, Gascon, etc., is that these forms are derived from the Latin accusative singular Vasconem (stress on the o). This is normal in the development from Latin via proto-Romance to French, Spanish, etc.; the nominative singular is very often forgotten and the accusative singular is usually the source of the modern forms.

 * But the fact that there is an alternate form in modern languages, e.g. Basque and Vasco (stress on the a), happens to demonstrate, in this particular case, that there was a nominative singular Vasco (stress on the a). In this particular case (as in some others) the Latin nominative singular was not forgotten. That would be my view, anyway.

 * I believe that Auñamendi Enciclopedia is relying on a different explanation for the origin of forms such as Basque and the Spanish forename Vasco: the Enciclopedia or its sources have taken it that in the oblique cases and the plural of this word, the stress was optionally on the same syllable as the nominative (thus Vásconem, not Vascónem). That's quite possible, but it's not a neat argument, because you have to accept that there was also, at the same time, a form with the stress in the expected place (Vascónem, Vascónes) otherwise you have no explanation for the modern forms like Vascón, Gascon (stress on the o).

 * Whatever the truth of that argument, the nominative singular in Latin would still be vasco. It is extremely rare for Latin nouns to end in -n in the nominative singular. Now, in your second quotation, the encyclopedia says "El gentilicio "vascon" aparece por primera vez en las fuentes grecolatinas"; well, believe me, they are not citing a precise Latin form (though I can see that their expression is highly ambiguous): they are simply saying that the word vascon, in one form or another, is first found in Greek and Latin sources of the 2nd century BC, which is true, of course.

 * I learnt all this stuff in Romance philology classes 40 years ago ... what fun to come back to it again! I'll leave it to you now, Sugaar and Alan, to decide what's best to do. All good wishes And rew D alby  18:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, if you can you throw any light on the question about Gascon basco I have posed on Talk:Basque people, I'd appreciate it. Alan --A R King 20:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I have no problem with Vasco. Compare mansio, Scipio, leo, Teutones. I don't remember any case of a nominative -on in Latin. Perseus has no instances of nominative singular. The Online Etymological Dictionary offers from V.L. *Wasco, from L. Vasco, sing. of Vascones. Auñamendi itself quotes Mitxelena: A este respecto advierte Michelena (1984) "no debemos olvidar que el texto no está en romance, de modo que lat. uasco es diferente hasta por la forma de cast., etc., vasco" y que "en latín no es sino el caso recto, desprovisto conforme a un esquema frecuente en esa lengua de la nasal de otros casos, entre los cuales se cuentan todos los del plural, incluido el nominativo-vocativo" explaining how Vasco corresponds to vasconis, vascones,... I am not sure about the accent variants. I'd like to include the macron but I will leave it to others, who may be more certain. I proceed to change it. - Error 00:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm stepping out. I leave it for the linguists. I just was worried that the claim didn't seem sufficiently justified. Now it seems it is, even if there are still some doubts maybe. --Sugaar 04:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'd say there is no doubt whatsoever about the nominative singular of vascones being vasco in Latin. You sort of have to either know some basic Latin grammar or take it on faith from those who do! (You don't need to be a linguist.) But Mitxelena's point is also pertinent; to paraphrase, basically he's pointing out that the -o of Latin vasco has nothing to do with the -o of Spanish vasco, and therefore we shouldn't think of Latin vasco as "corresponding" to Spanish vasco (instead, it corresponds to Spanish vascón). All of this is quite straightforward if you've ever studied Latin; if you haven't, it's probably confusing.

 * I think Error's amendment is fine, except that Vascones (Latin singular  VASCO ) needs a comma after Latin, so I'll put one in. --A R King 07:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate translation
Hi Metroxed, I see you are undertaking a series of translations from the Spanish wikipedia. I would like to point out that such a decision can´t be made out of the blue and should be done with respect to other contributors, since these articles belong to no one. You might as well develop from current versions or refute the statements given if you think there is a reason for it. I saw your edits in several articles, and I decided to add a few details in the Varduli, but there was good content before in the current Vascones article, so you may enrich it but definitely NOT OVERWRITE it. I went through it and besides finding quite a lot of English writing mistakes, the article is inaccurate quite a lot of times (a translation from the Spanish Wiki doesn´t mean it´s better), is not enlightening more than it was before and I have not time to correct other editors serial inaccuracies, especially if they are not done with a collaborative spirit. Regards Iñaki LL (talk) 14:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Alright then.--Metroxed (talk) 07:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Clarify tag
Re the territory of the Vascones, I was just wondering what part of the Clarify tag needs be clarifying. Thanks Iñaki LL (talk) 19:36, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

What part? The one that in your haste you fail to recognize.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Beg you pardon? Iñaki LL (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Claims of an error are not made lightly and it would be one of many wishes to rectify it on my own instead of wait upon others that call in question the need the clarify. I can only say that the assumption that the clarification was in error is incorrect. It can only be pointed out that it is all in the details. Maybe their is a visual ability absent in others that I can see that brings me to mark the article as needing clarity.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I urge you to be more precise in your claim and more clear in your English above. What part of the geographic delimitation you do not understand? Thanks for adding content based comments, so that we get to something. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest a period of refrain before you continue to be rude instead of effective in your skills set.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 21:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What??? Rude? That's funny! Ok I think I see more clearly now what is happening, I will not bite it. Still I wait for a content based argument for the sake of the WP. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vascones


text:
Talk:Denver

Orphaned references in Denver
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Denver's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "NOAA": From Florida:  From Windsor, Colorado:  From Phoenix, Arizona:  From Charleston, West Virginia:  From Indianapolis:  From Augusta, Maine:  From Montgomery, Alabama:  From Boise, Idaho:

From Jackson, Mississippi:

From Boulder, Colorado:

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From Jefferson City, Missouri:

From Honolulu:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 09:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Founded date
i'd like to put the question, what act should be considered the founding of Denver? it doesn't seem simple

the Founded date in the info box was recently changed from 22 to 17 Nov. 1858; in a sense both dates are valid — my research indicates the 17th is from indirect evidence the date of a committee forming in order to found the Denver City Town Company, while the 22nd is the date of the first entry in that entity's record book, which states on that day a constitution was adopted and the town site was laid out

(this is ignoring the fact that two other towns were already in some sense established, and the Denver City Town Company seems to have usurped one, then later merged with the other)

i note the citation given by Wisconsinsurfer in making the change is not the actual Record Book, but a finding aid whose summary seems to go beyond the actual contents of the book

here are several references which put the date at 22 Nov., though none say "founded":

 * "organized" - http://www.denverpost.com/denver150/ci_11027566
 * "platted" - http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/america/uslocal/west/colorado/cities/denver.htm
 * "established" - http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.ct.018
 * "established" - http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15330coll6/id/245/rec/4

and here are some which put it at the 17th, two use "founded":

Garbanzito (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "established" - http://denverinfill.com/blog/2008/09/highland-or-highlands.html
 * "born" - http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/File/Media/Brochures/cthistory.pdf
 * "formed" - http://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/files/Researchers/Mss.01813.pdf (this is the reference Wisconsinsurfer cited)
 * "founded" - p. 25 https://archive.org/details/historyofstateofcol04hall "The Denver Town company took formal possession November 17th, 1858, on which date the city may be said to have been founded. On the 22nd, its constitution was adopted and the following officers were elected…"
 * "founded" - http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15330coll15/id/4287/rec/11

 * I would go with the courts brochure, which seems to be the most official source you show. That says the 17th. Dhtwiki (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Denver
What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 11:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 7 one external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150201200859/http://www.denvergov.org/Zoning to http://www.DenverGov.Org/Zoning
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150211230311/http://www.glendalecherrycreek.com/history-colorado-center-ignites-imaginations-of-all-ages/ to http://www.glendalecherrycreek.com/history-colorado-center-ignites-imaginations-of-all-ages/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070909091536/http://www.denvergov.org:80/TabId/37910/TopicId/1434/default.aspx to http://www.denvergov.org/TabId/37910/TopicId/1434/default.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120229204519/http://www.pepsicenter.com/Events/Event.aspx?eid=jBjB9FSNi20= to http://www.pepsicenter.com/Events/Event.aspx?eid=jBjB9FSNi20=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150201173021/http://www.denver.org/metro/features/bike-trails to http://www.denver.org/metro/features/bike-trails
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070822182922/http://www.bicyclefriendlycommunity.org/Images/bfc_pdf_pages/denver.pdf to http://www.bicyclefriendlycommunity.org/Images/bfc_pdf_pages/denver.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071013125106/http://denvergov.org:80/Southeast_Corridor/GeneralInformation/RoadClosures2005/GeneralInformation/RoadClosures20055/tabid/393990/Default.aspx to http://www.denvergov.org/Southeast_Corridor/GeneralInformation/RoadClosures2005/GeneralInformation/RoadClosures20055/tabid/393990/Default.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 23:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I have checked, and reworked, these references, finding that 1 and 5 were not that helpful. Dhtwiki (talk) 15:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Dead links
User Johninjp is correct that a number of links to pages at http://www.denvergov.org are dead. He made substitutions using pages containing the content that appear to be hosted by Step 13, the self-help group. I did a limited search and found a page from year 2010 at the Internet Archive pointed at by one of the dead denvergov.org links. Presumably, all the missing pages are at the Archive. That might be a better place to aim the links than Step 13, but would require considerable tedious work. I also note that bots have been trying to fix various dead links in this article. Maybe a bot can rescue the denvergov.org links and obviate the manual work necessary to correct them. DonFB (talk) 05:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

 * It will probably go faster if the dead links are marked as such within the reference tags, and I see only two references marked as such now. There is a bot that finds dead links, but it doesn't seem to run as often as Cyberbot II, which is the main bot finding archived copies, and which sometimes errs and must be checked. Dhtwiki (talk) 13:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I now see that there are a bunch of links, in the section above, that Cyberbot II has worked on and that await checking. Dhtwiki (talk) 13:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I've now checked all of Cyberbot II's links, and made corrections where necessary. Dhtwiki (talk) 15:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

 * it's been taken care of, but as a note of explanation: i reverted the links johninjp replaced because it seemed like an attempt to drive traffic to denverdonate.com; it may have been innocent, but i wouldn't consider denverdonate.com authoritative nor would i expect the content it hosts to to stick around for long --Garbanzito (talk) 18:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060813180204/http://www.denvergov.org:80/aboutdenver/history_timeline.asp to http://www.denvergov.org/aboutdenver/history_timeline.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071013125031/http://denvergov.org:80/AboutDenver/history_narrative_1.asp to http://www.denvergov.org/AboutDenver/history_narrative_1.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160115213100/http://www.denvergov.org/aboutdenver/history_timeline_short.asp to http://www.denvergov.org/aboutdenver/history_timeline_short.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 08:52, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Only the first two check out. The third, archived 2016, leads to a 404 error when there is a 2006 copy available, at least. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:46, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 12 one external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.http://www.webcitation.org/5uRWqBo2m to http://www.dola.state.co.us/dlg/local_governments/municipalities.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111015012701/http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html to http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100117060231/http://national.unitedway.org:80/about/history.cfm to http://national.unitedway.org/about/history.cfm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130724044900/http://www.rockyflatsnuclearguardianship.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/leroy-moore-papers/dem-public-heath-at-rf-12-10.pdf to http://www.rockyflatsnuclearguardianship.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/leroy-moore-papers/dem-public-heath-at-rf-12-10.pdf
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060904083433/http://www.luc.edu/curl/projects/past/documents/cityscpe/vol4num2/ch5.html to http://www.luc.edu/curl/projects/past/documents/cityscpe/vol4num2/ch5.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120627044759/http://www.weather.com:80/news/weather-forecast/central-heat-expands-20120624 to http://www.weather.com/news/weather-forecast/central-heat-expands-20120624
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130815140430/http://www.mla.org/cgi-shl/docstudio/docs.pl?map_data_results to http://www.mla.org/cgi-shl/docstudio/docs.pl?map_data_results
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070405232859/http://www.denvergov.org:80/AboutDenver/history_narrative_2.asp to http://www.denvergov.org/aboutdenver/history_narrative_2.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071219162639/http://www.scfd.org/?page=home&sub=1 to http://www.scfd.org/?page=home&sub=1
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140414075219/http://www.truewestmagazine.com:80/jcontent/travel/travel/travel-features/5952-the-top-10-must-see-museums to http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcontent/travel/travel/travel-features/5952-the-top-10-must-see-museums
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110910112345/http://www.dickssportinggoodspark.com:80/Stadium/Facts.aspx to http://www.dickssportinggoodspark.com/Stadium/Facts.aspx
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120618125907/http://www.drcog.org:80/index.cfm?page=InternationalPartnersforPeace to http://www.drcog.org/index.cfm?page=InternationalPartnersforPeace

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

 * https://web.archive.org/20111015012701/http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html to http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20100117060231/http://national.unitedway.org:80/about/history.cfm to http://national.unitedway.org/about/history.cfm
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20130724044900/http://www.rockyflatsnuclearguardianship.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/leroy-moore-papers/dem-public-heath-at-rf-12-10.pdf to http://www.rockyflatsnuclearguardianship.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/leroy-moore-papers/dem-public-heath-at-rf-12-10.pdf
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20060904083433/http://www.luc.edu/curl/projects/past/documents/cityscpe/vol4num2/ch5.html to http://www.luc.edu/curl/projects/past/documents/cityscpe/vol4num2/ch5.html
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20120627044759/http://www.weather.com:80/news/weather-forecast/central-heat-expands-20120624 to http://www.weather.com/news/weather-forecast/central-heat-expands-20120624
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20070405232859/http://www.denvergov.org:80/AboutDenver/history_narrative_2.asp to http://www.denvergov.org/aboutdenver/history_narrative_2.asp
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20071219162639/http://www.scfd.org/?page=home&sub=1 to http://www.scfd.org/?page=home&sub=1
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20110910112345/http://www.dickssportinggoodspark.com:80/Stadium/Facts.aspx to http://www.dickssportinggoodspark.com/Stadium/Facts.aspx
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20120618125907/http://www.drcog.org:80/index.cfm?page=InternationalPartnersforPeace to http://www.drcog.org/index.cfm?page=InternationalPartnersforPeace

 * https://web.http://www.webcitation.org/5uRWqBo2m to http://www.dola.state.co.us/dlg/local_governments/municipalities.html
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20130815140430/http://www.mla.org/cgi-shl/docstudio/docs.pl?map_data_results to http://www.mla.org/cgi-shl/docstudio/docs.pl?map_data_results
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20140414075219/http://www.truewestmagazine.com:80/jcontent/travel/travel/travel-features/5952-the-top-10-must-see-museums to http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcontent/travel/travel/travel-features/5952-the-top-10-must-see-museums

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Links #2-6, 8-9, 11-12 working; links #1, 7, 10 not working. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6G4J8TS75?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fprod%2Fwww%2Fdecennial.html to http://www.census.gov/prod/www/decennial.html

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 * Link works and seems useful. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:57, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 one external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5uRWp2Zfd?url=http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp to http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/69hd5KAIE?url=http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0076/twps0076.html to http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0076/twps0076.html
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/69hd5KAIE?url=http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0076/twps0076.html to http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0076/twps0076.html

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 * http://www.webcitation.org/5uRWp2Zfd?url=http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp

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 * Links work and all lead to the same page. Perhaps they should be combined. Dhtwiki (talk) 10:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Adding that first link seemed nonsensical, and original link worked (via alias); so I reworked reference. Dhtwiki (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Introductory Information
Re "...making it the highest major city in the United States.[9]" Possible but questionable statement. What is the definition of "major city"? Albuquerque, NM with 557K population (907K metro area) is higher at 5,312 ft.Venqax (talk) 16:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You are right. The claim is too vague. Perhaps we should put it in the form: "Denver is the highest of the largest (X number) cities in the United States." By the way, is that Albuquerque elevation measured at city hall down by the Rio Grande, or somewhere up on the slope of Sandia Peak? Regards, Plazak (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 3 external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.census.gov/prod/www/decennial.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140110090353/http://www.glendalecherrycreek.com/history-colorado-center-ignites-imaginations-of-all-ages/ to http://www.glendalecherrycreek.com/history-colorado-center-ignites-imaginations-of-all-ages/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_5151700%2C00.html

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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304101812/http://ghex.colostate.edu/pdf_files/AHistoryColoradoFlowerGrowersAndItsPeople.pdf to http://ghex.colostate.edu/pdf_files/AHistoryColoradoFlowerGrowersAndItsPeople.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120703034302/http://climate.colostate.edu/climateofcolorado.php to http://climate.colostate.edu/climateofcolorado.php
 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/68PyfBeFQ?url=http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/08/0820000.html to http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/08/0820000.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071013130345/http://mountainparkshistory.org/Parks/index.html to http://mountainparkshistory.org/Parks/index.html
 * Added tag to http://chicanomoratorium.org/html/history_timeline.html

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External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on Denver. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110517022949/http://denvergov.org/cpd/Planning/BlueprintDenver/tabid/431883/Default.aspx to http://www.denvergov.org/cpd/Planning/BlueprintDenver/tabid/431883/Default.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160115013843/http://www.endhomelessness.org/page/-/files/4361_file_Appendix_One.pdf to http://www.endhomelessness.org/page/-/files/4361_file_Appendix_One.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110924101940/http://mesalek.com/colo/denvers470.html to http://www.mesalek.com/colo/denvers470.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111228172125/http://www.flightmapping.com/features/biggest-busiest-airports to http://www.flightmapping.com/features/biggest-busiest-airports
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080216023540/http://www.dot.state.co.us/App_DTD_DataAccess/Downloads/CityMaps/Denver.pdf to http://www.dot.state.co.us/App_DTD_DataAccess/Downloads/CityMaps/Denver.pdf

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help with incipient edit war
IP user 68.114.34.9 has now three times added content which contains direct, multi-sentence quotations from the cited sources; the content is also in a subjective narrative style which i believe is inappropriate ("non-encyclopedic"); the third pass has done some paraphrasing but still quotes several complete sentences without in-text attribution; clearly the content is important to them, but i hesitate to try to open a dialog with an IP user; i'm at the limit of my wixpertise and would rather step back and observe how someone more experienced might handle it; TIA Garbanzito (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

 * I've just reverted the latest addition, because it seemed excessively detailed. The source, Gallagher's A Wild West History of Frontier Colorado, doesn't seem to be online. I'll leave a warning template I've left a message on the user talk page to encourage involvement here. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC) (edited 05:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC))

 * to be clear, i used the partial contents available from Google Books of one of the references to confirm some direct quotes, did not go through all the text, because it was quickly obvious that there was much quoted material Garbanzito (talk) 18:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I have attempted to add a few sentences to the early history of Denver, only to have it removed again and again. I think I have gotten it down to a concise bit now, but still it gets pulled. I think it adds something to things that have been said - Larimer's desire to "curry favor" is given more of the backstory - he and his group met with the Governor before coming out, then he and his men jumped another group's claims - we get a better picture of why he wanted to curry favor with Gov. Denver. Then there is the bit about the crossed cottonwood poles - right now in the story it's kind of "so what? He built a structure with some timber." If you add in the point that he created the first "Larimer Square", people can say, "Hey! I KNOW a Larimer Square in downtown Denver!" The added bit about the St. Charles group shows who was really in charge, and why Denver has a Larimer Square and a Larimer Street, and the only reference to St. Charles is a rec. center. Why do we want to stifle history? Stories like this are the main reason I got interested (and still am) in history, and I would bet that others would think the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.34.9 (talk) 13:16, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Have you though of adding to the article History of Denver, which, at this point has more summary language than here, when the reverse should be true? Compare:

The St. Charles townsite men had traveled down the South Platte River. One of their leaders, Charles Nichols, decided to turn around and guard their claim. Arriving back at Cherry Creek, he found his claim jumped by Larimer and his men. Nichols confronted them, arguing that the land was platted for the town of St. Charles. He stood his ground boldly but futilely until the Kansas businessmen dangled a noose in his face. Defeated, Nichols agreed to negotiate.

 * which is from your version just reverted, and any mention lacking in the current version, to:

The majority of the settlers in St. Charles had returned to Kansas for the winter and left only a small number of people behind to guard their claim. Larimer and his followers gave the representatives whiskey, promises, and threats and the St. Charles claim was surrendered.

 * which is from the history article. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

 * i was about to suggest taking it to the History article, but note the "The St. Charles townsite men" passage above should be properly summarized as it is nearly a direct quote from Gallagher's book

 * i'm also cautious that the Gallagher book may be over-dramatized, so i would suggest cross-referencing with other sources; for example i found an earlier source describing a _threat_ of a noose, but not "dangling a noose in his face" --Garbanzito (talk) 01:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Yes. Definitely agree, especially making sure that there are no copyright violations. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Public transit in infobox
I have added transit lines to the infobox as most large cities display the public transit lines in the infobox (see:Houston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia), it adds only one or two extra lines, and they are important information about the city to an out-of-towner. Dmartin969 (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a travel directory, so the last part should not be used to justify anything. The other articles you've linked have not gone through WP:GAN and WP:FAC, so these changes were made without scrutiny by reviewers. Generally, too many icons are discouraged, and there's no good cutoff for highways and transit. Should it extend all the way down to frequent bus routes and short state highways? That'll add dozens of entries for a major city. It's just not fit for an infobox.  Sounder Bruce  07:16, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Information on the court case that delayed formation of the City and County of Denver
This paragraph appears in the article:
 * In 1901, the Colorado General Assembly voted to split Arapahoe County into three parts: a new consolidated City and County of Denver, a new Adams County, and the remainder of the Arapahoe County to be renamed South Arapahoe County. A ruling by the Colorado Supreme Court, subsequent legislation, and a referendum delayed the creation of the City and County of Denver until November 15, 1902.[36]

Link 36 goes to http://www.aera.net/Default.aspx?id=8970, a page which no longer exists (it just shows the home page of the AERA). But the earliest archive.org version, from February 18, 2010 (available here) itself cites Wikipedia for this information. We shouldn't cite a page that cites us. But I can't find any other source for this piece of information. Any help? --ΨΦorg (talk) 00:13, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Good catch. A really quick-n-dirty search for a source finds:
 * http://www.co.arapahoe.co.us/DocumentCenter/View/1969/FactSheet?bidId=
 * http://www.co.arapahoe.co.us/94/About
 * https://coloradoencyclopedia.org/article/arapahoe-county
 * but they don't have details of referendum/court case, etc. Just a statement about the split effective in 1902. DonFB (talk) 01:01, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Update: I revised the text and replaced previous circular reference with legit historical source (King--also used in History of Denver article). DonFB (talk) 04:50, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 * After a lot of digging, I've found two court cases which establish the formation of the consolidated City and County of Denver as occurring on December 1, 1902, not on November 15. The first is Boston & Colorado Smelting Co. v. C.S. Elder, 20 Colo.App. 96, 77 P. 258 (June 13, 1904).  This was a property tax dispute between the owner of property in Argo (one of the towns which got consolidated into Denver) and the Denver Treasurer.  Argo had set the property tax mill levy on November 6, 1902, at 1.00 mills, whereas the City and County of Denver had set the mill levy at 16.25 mills.
 * In this case, the Colorado Court of Appeals wrote, "The town of Argo was one of the municipalities which by virtue of the amendment became merged in the city and county of Denver. But it did not become so merged, nor did the terms of its officers terminate, until the 1st day of December, 1902--the day the proclamation was issued." 77 P. 258, 259-60.  Based on that, it overturned Denver's attempt to increase the mill levy.
 * The second was City Council of City and County of Denver v. Board of Commissioners of Adams County, 33 Colo. 1, 77 P. 858 (June 20, 1904). This was also a property tax dispute, between Denver and the newly-created Adams County.  In this case, the state Supreme Court wrote, "the amendment [which authorized the creation of the city and county of Denver] itself became effective November 4, 1902, when it was ratified by the people, but the city and county of Denver for which it provided did not come into being until the day of the issuing of the Governor's proclamation, on December 1, 1902, for the amendment itself expressly so provides." 77 P. 858, 861-62.
 * Both decisions in full can be found at this link: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4428747
 * Type in "258" or "858" in the "Jump to" text box to be taken to the start of each case.
 * So I'm going to add citations to these two cases (if I can find the right template). --ΨΦorg (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Male/Female ratio
The following has been removed twice by anonymous editors over the past week:

but in 2015 for the category of never-married ages 25 to 34, there were 121.4 males for every 100 females. Due to a skewed sex ratio wherein single men outnumber single women, some protologists have nicknamed the city as Menver.

...along with two references.

Reasons given in the change log for removal are "non-standard" statistic, "irrelevant", and "included to demean the city". The last two contradict each other, and the last one indicates POV-driven content selection.

Reason to keep is that it is important enough for mainstream reliable sources to write entire articles about it.

I have reverted the deletion a second time just now. Should the text and references remain? Michaelmalak (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

 * i think the statistic is worth including, but i don't agree that just because "mainstream reliable sources" write about a statistic, or because one TV news site makes the unsupported statement "some call the city 'Menver'", that is reason enough to insert information into a wiki article; i would want better sources for the "Menver" reference — can you show that the name has stuck? i don't find much, and think it raises the question of what other nicknames should be included … e.g. "Cow Town" is missing

 * of your two references, one refers to the 2015 American Community Survey; the second reference is simply a summary of the first (and links to it); i suggest you instead link directly to the 2017 survey (i think that's a static link) and use the most recent numbers; you express the ratio of men to women as the number 121.4:100, however your source didn't mention the significant margin of error; the 2017 survey values work out to 121.7, but the stated margins give a range of 115 to 129, so i think "approximately 120" is as accurate as this figure should be

 * and then finally, what is it about this statistic that is special? in the never-married category, Denver's ratio of men to women is higher than this in all the age categories from 35 to 60, and men are still overabundant until the 75-80 range; your choice of age range would be most interesting if shows Denver is notably different from similar cities Garbanzito (talk) 04:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

 * After following your suggestion to look at Census Factfinder for other cities, I've deleted the 121:100 verbiage as it's typical across the U.S. Michaelmalak (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Climate data
This is perhaps the most elaborate writeup for a city that does not have its own dedicated page such as Climate of Denver (currently a redirect). I have  been meaning to create this page for quite some time but have never gotten around to it. My plan would be to copy the existing climate section verbatim to the new page, and then trim down our existing section somewhat. Then, over time, the new page could grow freely and come to be like existing pages such as Climate of Anchorage. — Soap — 00:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

South Metro fire
South Metro fire 24.229.234.12 (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Salt Lake City?
, I don't understand placement of a box about Salt Lake City in the "History" section of the Denver article. It looks like a mistake. DonFB (talk) 02:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Denver, Co Product Exports (2020).svg

Lakota name (undue weight)
Hi @Moxy why did you tag this name as undue weight? Cheers. Poketama (talk) 03:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

 * why this one over the others? "The greater Denver area was inhabited by several Indigenous peoples such as Apaches, Utes, Cheyennes, Comanches, and Arapahoes. Native American names for Denver include Niineniiniicie, Kʼįįshzhíníńlį́, and Tüapü (Ute). " Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 13:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a good point I just don't know how to find references for those. Poketama (talk) 12:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Photograph of Colorado State Capitol
regarding the photo change by in the infobox. I thought that the photo of the Colorado State Capitol Building taken from the 16th Street mall was in many way an improvement over the current straight on photo from the front lawn. It puts the building more in context of the cityscape. Is there a caption change that you think would make that photograph work for the article? MatthewFromColfaxLibrary (talk) 20:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Since the main focus of the photo is on the 16th street mall, not the capitol building, it would make more sense to me to make the caption "16th street mall" or something along those lines. "16th street mall with the Colorado state capitol in the background" could work, but that seems a bit wordy. FoamingInDenver (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I do agree with @MatthewFromColfaxLibrary that the modification is better than the original one, as the original picture of Colorado State Capitol Building is gloomy, and it did put the building more in context of the cityscape. Also, for the picture of the Denver Union Station, the original one does not face directly to the station, so I changed a better one, I think it should be kept. Vitsuha (talk) 07:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I support changing the capitol building to the 16th street mall, we just need to make sure to change the caption along with it. However, we should keep the original photo of Denver Union Station, as it is a more clear view from Wynkoop Street, and the alternative is obsrtructed by things in the foreground and the tilt up camera angle. FoamingInDenver (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've made the change, is that ok? Vitsuha (talk) 15:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks great! FoamingInDenver (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 😊 Vitsuha (talk) 07:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Denver


text:
Phone-in

In broadcasting, a phone-in or call-in is a programme format in which viewers or listeners are invited to air their live comments by telephone, usually in respect of a specific topic selected for discussion on the day of the broadcast. On radio (especially talk radio), it is common for an entire programme to be dedicated to a phone-in session. On television, phone-in's are often part of a wider discussion programme: a current example in the UK is the "Jeremy Vine" TV show.

The concept dates to the early radio era: a December 1924 BBC 5NG Nottingham phone-in programme is described in a 1925 Radio Times article: "listeners ... enjoyed the novelty of hearing their own voices taking part". A prior attempted phone-in to a BBC 2LO London programme "led to such a rush on the telephones that the Post Office had to intervene".

Speech based Talk Radio UK was launched in 1995, with much of its programming featuring phone-ins. It also introduced the notion of the shock jock to the UK, with presenters like Caesar the Geezer and Tommy Boyd constructing heated discussions.

Ian Hutchby has researched power relations in phone ins, looking at arguments and confrontations. Using conversation analysis, he describes how the host retains power through devices such as "The Second Position" – the concept of going second in a discussion, giving the host time to formulate a response.

Similarly, the last word is always the broadcast word. The public can choose to end the conversation, but they are doing so by withdrawing from the interactional arena (Hutchby, 1996: 94-5; Talbot et al.).

In 2007, the BBC suspended all phone-in competitions (but not voting) due to an internal inquiry into corruption in the production of these games in shows such as charity telethons after a nationwide inquiry into the whole process leading to the cancellation of ITV Play.

In Ireland Liveline is a popular afternoon phone in show broadcast by RTÉ Radio 1 that is hosted by Joe Duffy. The phone in program usually focuses on consumer issues, current affairs and complaints from members of the public regarding various issues. The program and its presenter are frequently lampooned by numerous Irish comedians, one being David McSavage, who play on the popular perception that the program is merely an outlet for the angst of serial complainers and housewives while providing entertainment for those who revel in listening to despair and tales of misery delivered the callers. A quality of the show that is frequently satirized is Duffy's seemingly exasperated expressions of despair upon hearing of the plight of a caller.

Technology
The caller is connected via a telephone hybrid, which connects the telephone line to the audio console through impedance matching, or more modernly through digital signal processing, which can improve the perceived audio quality of the call. Telephone calls are often organised through a system which also provides broadcast automation, with an administrative assistant answering calls and entering caller information on a personal computer, which also displays on the radio presenter's screen. A profanity delay is often used to keep profanity and other inappropriate material off the air. For contests, the conversation can be recorded and edited "on the fly", before playback on the air just a few minutes later.

title: Phone-in


text:
Ken Brown

Ken Brown or Kenny Brown may refer to:

 * Ken Brown (filmmaker) (born 1944), American filmmaker, photographer, cartoonist, and designer
 * Ken Brown (footballer) (born 1934), England and West Ham United football player, later Norwich City manager
 * Ken Brown (golfer) (born 1957), Scottish golfer and BBC golf broadcaster
 * Ken Brown (ice hockey) (1948–2022), Canadian ice hockey player
 * Ken Brown (musician) (1940–2010), English guitarist for The Quarrymen
 * Ken Brown (linebacker) (born 1971), American football player
 * Ken Brown (wide receiver) (born 1965), American football player
 * Ken Brown (running back) (1945–2001), American football running back
 * Ken Brown (offensive lineman) (born 1954), American football offensive lineman
 * Ken Brown (basketball) (born 1989), American basketball player
 * Bundy K. Brown, also known as Ken Brown, American multi-instrumentalist and founding member of Tortoise
 * Kenny Brown (footballer) (born 1967), English former professional footballer
 * Kenny Brown (guitarist) (born 1953), American blues guitarist
 * Kenny Browne (born 1986), Irish football defender most prominently associated with Waterford F.C.

title: Ken Brown


text:
User:Avatar

Contact

 * Discussion: User talk:Avatar
 * E-Mail: [mailto:wikipedia@computerkultur.org wikipedia@computerkultur.org]
 * ICQ/UIN: 3456709 (mostly offline)
 * Skype: avatar-1
 * IRCNet: avatar

You can find some (german) information about me at my de.wikipedia.org user page.

Don't hesitate to contact me, if you have any questions.

de:Benutzer:Avatar

title: User:Avatar


text:
Black Diamond Equipment

Black Diamond Equipment is a manufacturer of equipment for climbing, skiing, and mountain sports, based in Utah, United States. The company also has a global office in Innsbruck, Austria. The company is owned by Clarus Corporation, which also owns Pieps, ClimbOn! Skincare, and Sierra Bullets.

History
Black Diamond Equipment's history dates from the late 1950s, when climber Yvon Chouinard began hand-forging pitons and selling them from the trunk of his car in Yosemite Valley. Chouinard's pitons quickly gained a reputation for quality, and Chouinard Equipment Ltd. was born soon after in Ventura, California.

In early 1989, after several product-liability lawsuits and a continued lack of profitability, Yvon Chouinard placed the company in Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Black Diamond was founded on December 1, 1989, when the assets of Chouinard Equipment Ltd. were purchased by a group of former company employees led by (now former CEO) Peter Metcalf, and a few outside investors. Metcalf moved the company and its 45 employees from Ventura, California to the Salt Lake City, Utah area in September 1991 to be closer to the climbing and skiing opportunities provided by the Wasatch Mountains.

In 1996, Black Diamond Equipment Europe was established in Reinach, Switzerland, making Black Diamond products more widely available throughout Europe. In 2006, Black Diamond Equipment Asia was established in Zhuhai, China to serve as both a secondary manufacturing facility, as well as a global distribution hub. In May 2010, Black Diamond Equipment was acquired for $90 million by Clarus Corporation. The resulting corporation was renamed and is now publicly traded on the NASDAQ under the name CLAR.

In 2015, Black Diamond announced they would be expanding their Utah manufacturing facility. In 2016, they announced they would be moving their European headquarters from Reinach to Innsbruck in Austria.

Products
Black Diamond Equipment design and manufacture products for climbing, skiing, and mountain sports. Climbing products include carabiners, quickdraws, harnesses, active and passive climbing protection, belay devices, helmets, ice tools and piolets, crampons, ice screws, bouldering pads, and big wall equipment. They also produce skiing and avalanche safety equipment. The company's mountain products include tents and shelters, lighting, trekking poles, and backpacks.

Over the years, Black Diamond has acquired and integrated several gear companies into its line, including Bibler tents (1997), Ascension climbing skins (1999), and Franklin climbing products (1998). In 2010, they acquired Gregory Mountain Products, a manufacturer of backpacks, but later sold it to luggage maker Samsonite in 2014.

Notable Black Diamond products include spring-loaded camming devices called Camalot and Magnetron carabiners, auto-locking carabiners that use magnets in the gate, and a steel insert in the carabiner's nose for added security.

As is common in safety-equipment industries, Black Diamond have issued many product recalls following safety concerns.

Social justice and environmentalism
When the Instagram page of Black Diamond posted a black page in solidarity with anti–police violence protesters on June 5, 2020, in which Black Diamond pledged $250,000 to support access to the outdoors by athletes of color, the company acknowledged it was aware of "widespread concerns" about its "association" with Clarus Corporation chief executive Warren Kanders, who also leads Safariland, the company which manufactured the tear gas widely used against protesters. Activists have called for a boycott of Black Diamond over these ties, which has been embraced by various climbing-related organizations. Safariland announced the divestiture of its crowd control products divisions, including tear gas, on June 9, 2020. The Clarus Corporation also faced criticism for a lack of diversity from pension fund giant CalPERS, who recommended in June 2020 that Clarus shareholders vote against re-electing executive chairman and largest shareholder Warren Kanders and two other board members. CalPERS owns 52,000 shares out of approximately 29,759,000 outstanding shares, or 0.175 percent. On June 9, 2020, Warren Kanders and other board members were re-elected to the board of directors.

Black Diamond's parent the Clarus Corporation also owns ammunition company Sierra Bullets. In 2018, the company monitored discussions regarding the role of guns in the outdoor industry for boycotts.

Former Black Diamond CEO Peter Metcalf had a history of political advocacy for both the outdoor industry and the public lands of Utah, and united with other outdoor companies against policies that threaten public lands and outdoor recreation.

Black Diamond says that they recycle as much waste as possible, make substantial use of wind and solar power, and support environmental non-profit bodies.

title: Black Diamond Equipment


text:
Tvangeste

Tvangeste is a Russian/Canadian symphonic black metal duo composed of husband and wife Mikhail "Miron" Chirva and Naturelle Chirva.

The band's name comes from Twangste (also spelled as Tuwangste, Tvankste or Twankste), an Old Prussian word meaning "Dam". Twangste was also the name of a small Old Prussian village roughly located at what is now the city of Kaliningrad (known as Königsberg until 1946) that was seized in 1255 by the Teutonic Knights. In the site of the settlement, the now-demolished Königsberg Castle was built. (The House of Soviets now stands on the former site of the castle.)

Biography
Tvangeste was formed in 1996 in Kaliningrad, Russia, and its line-up at the time consisted of Miron Chirva, Edgar, Nikolay "Kok" Kazmin and Klaus. However, in the following year, Edgar and Klaus left the band and were replaced by Asmodey and Julia. In 1998 they released two demo singles, Thinking... (that would be later re-recorded and included in their debut album) and Blood Dreams. Asmodey and Julia would leave shortly after, being replaced by Viktoria Kulbachnaya (from Romowe Rikoito) and Vano Mayarov (also known as Vanoe Mayoroff or Mayorov). With this line-up, Tvangeste released their debut full-length in 2000, Damnation of Regiomontum, via now-defunct Norwegian record label Valgarder.

In 2001, Miron's then-girlfriend Naturelle joined the band, and in 2003 their second studio album, Firestorm, was released, via also now-defunct Japanese label Worldchaos Production. Polish musician Cezary Mielko worked as a session drummer on it. Also in 2003, Max Naumov joined the band, and Tvangeste became a quintet.

In 2005, Miron and Naturelle married and moved to Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada, while the three remaining members decided to stay in Russia. Around the same time Miron also provided vocals for Israeli black metal band Arafel's second studio album, Second Strike: Through the Flame of the Ages.

Since 2006 Miron and Naturelle are working on Tvangeste's third studio album. Tentatively titled Satori (Japanese for "Illumination"), it was scheduled to be released via their own independent record label, Regiomontum Productions. Norwegian musician Jørn Øyhus served as a session drummer, and the orchestral instrumentation was provided by the City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, according to Miron. Having a long and convoluted production history, it currently has no set release date.

On 7 September 2016 the band announced on their official Facebook page the death of their former bassist/guitarist, Vano Mayarov.

Demo tapes

 * Blood Dreams (1997)
 * Thinking... (1998)

Studio albums

 * Damnation of Regiomontum (2000)
 * Firestorm (2003)

Current members

 * Mikhail "Miron" Chirva (Михаил "Мирон" Чирва) – vocals, guitars, orchestral arrangements (1996–)
 * Naturelle Chirva (Натюрель Чирва) – keyboards, vocals, orchestral arrangements (2001–)

Former members

 * Edgar (Эдгар) – guitars (1996–1998)
 * Klaus (Клаус) – guitars (1996–1997)
 * Nikolay "Kok" Kazmin (Николай "Кок" Казьмин) – guitars (1996–2005)
 * Asmodey (Асмодей) – drums (1997–1998)
 * Julia (Юлия) – keyboards (1997–1998)
 * Viktoria Kulbachnaya (Виктория Кульбачная) – keyboards (1998–2005)
 * Ivan "Vano" Mayorov (Иван Майоров) – bass, guitar (1998–2005; died 2016)
 * Max Naumov (Макс Наумов) – bass (2003–2005)

Session members

 * Cezary Mielko – drums (2003)
 * Jørn Øyhus – drums (2014)

title: Tvangeste


text: Category:Magazines published in Sweden

title: Category:Magazines published in Sweden


text: Category:Radio in Sweden

title: Category:Radio in Sweden


text: Category:Magazines

title: Category:Magazines


text: Category:Monarchy of Sweden

title: Category:Monarchy of Sweden


text:
Vivian Woodward

Vivian John Woodward (3 June 1879 – 31 January 1954) was an English footballer who enjoyed the peak of his career from the turn of the 20th century to the outbreak of the First World War. He played for Tottenham Hotspur and Chelsea.

He captained Great Britain to gold medals at the 1908 Olympics in London and in Stockholm in 1912. Woodward's tally of 29 goals in 23 matches for England remained a record from 1911 to 1958; his strike rate of 1.26 goals per game is the second highest for an England player.

He served in the British Army during the First World War, and as a result missed out on Chelsea's run to their first-ever FA Cup final in 1915. Woodward's injuries during the war caused his retirement from football. He then served on Cheleas's Board between 1922 and 1930 as a director of the club.

Club career
An architect by profession, Woodward began his career at Clacton Town. Following spells at Harwich & Parkeston and Chelmsford, he joined Tottenham Hotspur in March 1901, who in the same year would win the FA Cup. Woodward's debut for Tottenham occurred in the Southern League on 6 April 1901 in a home match against Bristol City which Spurs won 1–0. Due to work and cricket commitments, he did not begin to appear regularly for the team until the 1902–03 season. In nine seasons at White Hart Lane, he made 169 appearances and scored 73 goals. Tottenham was elected to the Second Division of the Football League for the 1908–09 season, and Woodward scored Spurs' first ever goal in the Football League in September 1908 against Wolverhampton Wanderers that finished 3–0. He helped the team win promotion to the First Division that season.

Before the start of the 1909 season, Woodward decided to retire to concentrate on his architectural practice and cricket. He had a short spell back with Chelmsford, but was persuaded to join David Calderhead's Chelsea on 20 November 1909. He went on to play in a total of 116 games for them, scoring 34 goals. He was their leading scorer in the 1912–13 season with ten goals.

At the start of the First World War he enlisted in the British Army and as a result did not play many matches during the 1914–15 season, but he was given special leave to join Chelsea at Old Trafford for the Cup Final when Bob Thomson was injured. However Thomson recovered and Woodward refused to play and deny Thomson his chance to play in an FA Cup final as Woodward had not played in any of Chelsea's matches in their run to the final.

Woodward was injured in the right thigh during the war and did not return to top class football.

International career
He made his England debut in 1903, scoring twice in a 4–0 win against Ireland. Between 1903 and 1911, he won 23 full caps and scored 29 goals, setting an English record that would last until the 1950s. He also played in three unofficial international matches against South Africa in 1910, scoring a further four goals. At the time, England only usually played three matches a season, for the British Home Championship, but two tours to central Europe in 1908 and 1909 netted Woodward 15 goals (over half his total). He held the overall England goalscoring record, either jointly or alone, for 47 years – longer than any other player until surpassed by Tom Finney in 1958. With his 28th and 29th goals, the last of his career, he overhauled Steve Bloomer against Wales in March 1911, and was not himself overtaken until Tom Finney scored his 30th (and last) goal in October 1958.

He also turned out 44 times for England Amateurs and scored 57 goals. England Amateurs played most of its internationals against the full representative sides of Europe, whose football was much less developed than that of the British at the time, and this huge gap between them often resulted in the Europeans getting trashed by the English, and Woodward would thus often score several goals per match. For instance, in one match against France in 1906, the Times and Sporting Life credit Woodward with eight goals in a 15–0 win, although FIFA's official record of the match credits him with only four goals. However, he did score six against Netherlands in 1909.

The Home Nations did not recognise its matches against England Amateurs, and thus, 12 goals in 14 of his appearances are considered unofficial, four against Ireland, six against Wales, and 2 goals in an unofficial match against Sweden on 12 June 1914 as this game was not regarded as a full international by the Swedish Football Association. However, the remaining 30 appearances for England amateurs and 45 goals (including 6 matches and 5 goals for Great Britain at the Olympics) were made in matches recognised as full internationals by FIFA and the opposition's Football Associations, though not by the FA, which means that Woodward scored a total of 75 goals in 53 matches that were considered official internationals by the opposing sides, which would make him the first footballer to score 50 international goals, ahead of Imre Schlosser, who achieved it on 3 June 1917. Woodward scored a combined total of 10 international hat-tricks for the England teams, 4 for the main side and 6 for the Amateurs, all of which in friendlies sept for the one he netted against Wales at the 1907–08 British Home Championship on 16 March 1908, which is also the only one he netted against a Home Nation. His hat-trick tally also includes a 6-goal haul in a 9–1 win over the Netherlands on 11 December 1909, and four 4-goal hauls, two for each of the England teams.

Woodward also represented the Football League XI and the Southern League XI. He also toured the United States with The Pilgrims in 1905.

Olympic career
Woodward captained Great Britain to gold medals at the 1908 Olympics in London and then in Stockholm in 1912, scoring three goals in 1908, including one in the final, and other two in 1912.

Military career
He joined the 17th Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment. This was one of the Pals battalions formed during the early stages of World War I. It was known as a "Footballers Battalion" and it included many members of Woodward's former team Tottenham Hotspur. He served on the Western Front and was wounded in 1916. He attained the rank of Captain.

International goals
Sources:

 * Scores and results of England is listed first and score column indicates the score after each Woodward goal.

England amateurs

 * Scores and results of England amateur is listed first and the score column indicates the score after each Woodward goal.

England amateurs (non-official)

 * Scores and results of England amateur is listed first and the score column indicates the score after each Woodward goal.

title: Vivian Woodward


text:
User talk:Frank Senne

Welcome (honestly). Thought you should know, it is generally considered poor form to link an article to one's own material published elsewhere without first suggesting it on the talk page and (at least) seeing if anyone has an issue with your material; ideally, you suggest it on the talk page and someone else actually adds it. Not a tight rule, but given that this seems to be one of the first things you are doing, it's not going to get you off on the right foot with a lot of people. -- Jmabel 09:06, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Frank Senne


text:
User talk:Jwikip

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia!

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * If you haven't already, please add your name to the new user log to let others know a little about yourself.
 * Read the article describing how to edit a page and feel free to experiment in the Sandbox.
 * When editing pages, use the preview button before submitting and try to fill in the summary box for every edit.
 * Eventually, read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk or ask me on my talk page.
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck! Jeff 09:11, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).

Image copyright tag missing
Hello, we're working hard to add image copyright tags to every image so that the copyright status is not ambiguous. I'd appreciate it if you could add the appropriate copyright tag to these images:
 * Image:Imgp0379-w200.jpg

Since you took the photo, you can release it under the GNU Free Document License by adding this information to the image description:

Jeff 09:11, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Talk:ACORN random numbers

A tag has been placed on Talk:ACORN random numbers requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about something invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. DannyS712 (talk) 05:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

'''I mistakenly changed the name of the talk page instead of the page itself and that (I think) is why they decided to delete it. ''A pity ! following my request, this deletion was reverted, and then tha page was deleted again - I decided not to insist. jw (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC) '

Restored
I restored Talk:ACORN random numbers per your request. -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 21:29, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Is there a moderated mass update script with flag 'Y', to correct language errors ?
looking for a script that will allow me to do a mass update but after reviewing each affected page. I don't have the time to go thru the proper verify, edit, preview, check, publish, but am willing to help if such a script exists.

The error is "went onto"+verb, which occured 1237 time a short while back, which ought usually to be "went on to" + verb. Most, but beware not all, should be changed: eg. "he went onto free horses" would depend on the exact context to interpet its meaning [sorry it's a rather contrived example]

jw (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

 * I use JWB for this purpose and make some custom regular expression substitutions. I'm not sure what sort of flag you are looking for, but JWB does not have a bot flag set for it, if that's what you mean. Though I don't think that really matters for this sort of task. -- Beland (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

 * Not a bot-flag but 'flag' would be for the human editor, after reviewing the context in each relevant page, to indicate Y (before the script updates that page)... too dangerous to mass update when there might probably be a small number of false positives. ... so looking for a sort of "moderated mass update" jw (talk) 14:35, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

 * JWB lets you review the changes one page at a time, and then makes the changes you've approved for that page immediately. However, all the changes are made for you, you only see the part of the page where changes have been made, and it's a single button press to approve or skip. You do have an opportunity to make manual changes as well. -- Beland (talk) 15:07, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

 * I am trying to use JWB but suspect that I need to be added to the list of approved users AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage.

Can you approve me? I undertake to only use it for this one operation i.e. to fix went onto (at least until I find something else to fix :) ). In addition, I undertake to refer to you if/when I wish to do that. If you consider I don't have enough experience or that I am not sufficiently trustworthy for some other reason, then how can we find a trusty volunteer to do the task on our behalf? jw (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Oxford Ornithological Society moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Oxford Ornithological Society, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. creffett (talk) 23:11, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Oxford Ornithological Society concern
Hi there, I'm MDanielsBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:Oxford Ornithological Society, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

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Draft:Oxford Ornithological Society concern
Hi there, I'm MDanielsBot. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:Oxford Ornithological Society, a page you created, has not been edited in 5 months. The Articles for Creation space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for articlespace.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it.

You may request Userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available at WP:REFUND/G13.

Thank you for your attention. MDanielsBot (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Oxford Ornithological Society

Hello, Jwikip. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Oxford Ornithological Society".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the, , or  code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! UnitedStatesian (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Dhobi ghat
Thanks for you work on Dhobi ghat: I hope you like the result. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.) Blah2 (talk) 17:05, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

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