text:
Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/September

Subsense policy and layout
I can't seem to find a help page describing layout or policy on subsenses. I did find a relevant discussion at Beer parlour/2015/May. However, that discussion was primarily about a specific proposal for a change to what was previously, and apparently continues to be, an unclear policy situation.

For example, I'm looking at endorse, where "" seems to be clearly a subsense of "". Daask (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

 * Eureka! encourages subsenses, but still doesn't explain how to format them. Daask (talk) 17:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

 * An instance can be seen at sense 4 of the English noun mischief. --Lambiam 14:18, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks! I went ahead and created page at Subsenses where further discussion, documentation, and policy development can take place. Daask (talk) 15:21, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Are those real words?
I am concerned about the entries for Earthan and Earthican. I was recently working on w:Earth in science fiction, which also included a look at w:Earthling, which in turn brought me to Thesaurus:Earthling here. I have the Brave new words: the Oxford dictionary of science fiction by Jeff Prucher, which I used to compile a list of synonyms of Earthling. It doesn't list either of those weird words, nor can I see them used anywhere (except indeed the latter may be a term used in Futurama, but nowhere else as I can tell: https://theinfosphere.org/Earthican_people ). Not sure if a word used a few times in a single TV show should be on Wiktionary, but Earthan is even more dubious. I am not sure what is the procedure of bringing such topics to the community's attention here - I hope this helps. --Piotrus (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

 * For Wiktionary, words become “real” words if a sufficient number of people use them with essentially the same meaning. If there are serious doubts whether an existing entry meets that requirement, the usual procedure is to list it at Requests for verification – for these words, Requests for verification/English. --Lambiam 14:01, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

 * I imagine these exist. They are glossed as "rare, nonstandard" so people aren't going to find them in Wiktionary and think these are normal everyday words (frankly how often do we talk about our planet of origin anyway?). If you have really done your homework and are convinced that these words are not in use, even rarely by sci-fi authors, then you can use the WT:RFV process to challenge them. Equinox ◑ 13:41, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

 * Thank you both. I didn't notice both articles have quotations. As the words are not invented (hoaxes), but just very rare (arguably limited to a single work), I accept your argument that they are fine to remain here. Thank you! --Piotrus (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

 * These terms would fail our inclusion criterion if they were limited to a single work, or even only used in reference to the same fictional universe. But they are not. Attesting for the use of Earthan: . For Earthican: . --Lambiam 05:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Anyone know what this person is talking about?
For the article on the word "falsehood", I reverted this edit made by user Rodgaskins because I could not make sense of it. He left this long remark on my talk page and I again don't understand what he's talking about. I'd like to know is if anyone else can make sense of it or if it's just me having trouble understanding. Thanks. Mgkrupa (talk) 04:04, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes can someone please help her understand me. I'm tying to make the world a better place by using language to break down misunderstandings and for some reason my edit seems to defy logic when it seems quite logical to me ;) <-like that semi-colen there is a winking smiley face. Rodgaskins (talk) 04:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Mgkrupa. I wouldn't worry about it; you can feel free to remove the comments from your talk page if you wish., it seems that this project is not a good match for you. If you continue adding disruptive content to entries, you will be blocked. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:17, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * . Well, you seem to be seriously confused. You added an essay to a dictionary entry detailing meanings of the word that seem to have come entirely from your imagination. This included a badly mangled interpretation of Isaiah 44:13- a verse that isn't particularly relevant to what you were saying nor to the entry.
 * When reverted, you posted a tangled mess of nonsequiturs on the talk page of the person who reverted you, including bizarre things like 'Let us consider what "hood" implies by examining its historical and biblical Hebrew context.' For the record: there is no "biblical Hebrew context". The stuff you said about the book of Job is completely irrelevant, since it was written in Hebrew before any form of English even existed. The King James Version is only a translation, and it uses words that were already in use and had their meanings- independant of the Bible- before the translators even started their work. You also added an irrelevant discussion of the dragon mentioned in a quote that neither your edit nor the revert changed at all, talking like it was written by the person who reverted you.
 * "Trying to make the world a better place by using language to break down misunderstandings" isn't the job of a dictionary, and your efforts would have done more harm than good toward that end even if it were. The fact that "it seems quite logical" to you is actually pretty scary. Wiktionary doesn't need that kind of "logic". Chuck Entz (talk) 06:35, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That may be true Chuck but how and why your argument doesn't help the argument or the effort to address the loss of meaning in the transliteration of the word "falsehood" in the Wiktionary definition. The Wiktionary definitions used in the entry for "falsehood" are synonymous with definitions used in synonyms not an adequate definition separating the word from its' synonyms and capturing the context of the word in it's historical case usage which I attempted to chronicle. Keep in mind language is not only defined in a historical context but also the context of current usage. When I use falsehood none of the three definitions in Wiktionary apply the word in the context I intend for its' use so two wrongs don't make a right and I would argue the definition entry is worse off without some context which touches on both parts of the compound word as the words etymology outlines ;) Rodgaskins (talk) 16:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you are talking about. The Wiktionary definition of contains no transliteration. The sense in which the term is used in the KVJ is adequately covered by sense 3: “mendacity, deceitfulness”.  --Lambiam 15:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

and not. The problem is that if you re-convert  to Devanagari, it becomes रङ्गीला (which is very very very rare) and doesn't give the desired spelling (रंगीला) back. For this reason, I'm opposed to changing the transliteration of the Sinhalese anusvara as  before h and whatever (or any other change based on its position). But I changing it to. Svārtava2 • 10:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am only speaking about the Sinhalese language. yes, pronunciation of letters like this could be little unclear. but I am very sure, it is not a "m" sound. The Pali in my country (Sri Lanka), it didn't had own characters/letters. they all were written in Sinhalese. we never had any problems with pronouncing them. I am not asking to change the all languages, just the Sinhalese. this is a huge thing as to my point of view.
 * example: "I am from Sri Lanka, I speak Sinhala", the word "Sri Lanka (ශ්‍රි ලංකා)" and "Sinhala (සිංහල)" become "Sri Lamka (ශ්‍රි ලම්කා)" and "Simhala (සිම්හල)". How would you think if I said "I am from Emgland, I speak Emglish" !?
 * This is a very important letter in my country and my language. I am asking you to fix this. --IC9999 (talk) 15:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Currently, we aren't transliterating U+0D82 anusvara as "m", but as "ṁ" for Sinhalese and as "ṃ" for Pali and Sanskrit. Similarly, "ṅ" isn't "n", and "ṭ" isn't "t".  If it is such an important letter, why do you want us to not tell those who can't read the Sinhalese script (which isn't easy to read if you don't recognise the words) whether a word is written with anusvara or the velar nasal?  (Perhaps I am being a bit unfair - anusvara is actually one of the easiest characters to recognise.)  Perhaps you should point us to a currently-used system for a mixed transliteration or transcription for Sinhalese that you would be happy with.  It probably won't resemble the academic IAST-like transliteration that we currently have, and we'll just have to move translation pages a little bit closer to failing because they run out of memory.  We aren't going to change how we transliterate Pali and Sanskrit in Sinhala script, but we may change how we transliterate Sinhalese.  (For comparison, how we transliterate Pali and Sanskrit in the Thai and Lao scripts bears little relationship to how we transliterate Thai and Lao themselves.) --RichardW57m (talk) 16:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * like I said before. I am only speaking about the Sinhalese language. anusvara could be common in many languages but I am not talking about other languages. I can see that "ṅ" isn't "n" and "ṭ" isn't "t" and I'm not telling you that anusvara is "n". I don't know what is the real pronunciation of the anusvara as to this pronunciation language use in wiktionary. I don't know anything about this pronunciation language or IPA but, I think using similar letters means they are similar sounds. I guess most of people that use wiktionary doesn't fully understand what this letters saying but they get the basic idea how they should pronounce it. I am sure when normal person saw this "siṁhala" he will think this is "simhala (සිම්හල)" instead of "sinhala (සිංහල)". --IC9999 (talk) 21:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't this normal person also fail to notice the difference between "n" and "ṅ"? People studying Pali seem not to immediately notice that the Pali Text Society Dictionary uses "n" instead of "ṅ".  (It uses "ŋ" for anusvara.)  Someone who is aware of the difference between "t" and "ṭ" is likely to suspect that "c" isn't as in English. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * just fine, there is no problem. don't fix this. and how many times i need to tell you that I am talking about a Sinhala character (U+0D82, Sinhala (Unicode_block)); It is not Pali, not Hindi, not Thai. if you visit to Anusvara you can see there are lots of other languages too, but I am not talking about them. as to my knowledge the fix, won't affect any other languages. (I said about this problem here because, My primary language is Sinhala and I have speak Pali since I were 4yr. it is kinda annoying to prove this problem to smart person like you and I give up) --IC9999 (talk) 20:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This is where you confuse me, for you surely know that U+0D82 is a Sinhalese, Pali and Sanskrit character. --RichardW57 (talk) 02:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I never heard about the Sanskrit. The Pali language that I knew didn't had a character system, only speaking. so they use Sinhala to write Pali. I don't know if this false or not because, for example sinhala: "" should be same as the pali: "" but "cētaṁ" is not "cētaṃ". but wiktionary is doubtful when it comes to Sinhala characters because it pronounce like "cetan", the end should be some kind of a "n". You can confirm what I said by find videos on internet that use pali words like, , , (these are very common words that I know, and non of them is a sinhala word) and heard by yourself. --IC9999 (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * you can clearly see that the sinhala: "" should be same as the pali: "" but "cētaṁ" is not "cētaṃ" because they use separated language modules. that is why I said that the fix won't affect any other languages. --IC9999 (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You can find examples of Sanskrit in the Sinhala script in Proposal to encode the CANDRABINDU for Sinhala; it is slightly unusual in that it uses candrabindu for a particular choice of word sandhi, which is reportedly an unusual choice in Sri Lanka. --RichardW57 (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC) There is a writing system for Pali in the Sinhala script, which is mostly followed by the BJT edition of the Tipitaka. It mostly uses positional nasal letters rather than anusvara or saññaka letters for nasals before stop consonants, and uses 'touching letters' rather than visible U+0DCA SINHALA SIGN AL-LAKUNA. The apparent preference in the BJT for writing rather than  is exceptional. Rather than writing, it writes with touching letters. The standard font set for Windows 10 has dropped support for touching letters, so my example might not render properly for you. Given these features, I would say that Pali has a character system that works using the Sinhala script. I wasn't aware of a Pali writing system that writes ; is that just a spelling mistake for, or is that yet another Pali writing system for me to learn about?

Wiktionary currently uses the same module transliterating the Sinhala script for Sinhalese, Pali, Sanskrit, namely Module:si-translit. The exported function, tr, is passed the language of the text to transliterate, and adjusts the transliteration accordingly. All the modern documented public transliteration schemes for the Sinhala script use 'ṃ' (as in modern IAST) or 'ṁ' (as in ISO 15919), and that works if one takes the trouble to learn the pronunciation rules for Sinhalese. SLS 1134:2011 Section 3.3 Note 1 says that the phonetic notation of anusvara is 'ṃ'. Apparently an official system of 1866 prescribed n̊ for anusvara, contrasting with 'ṅ'.

Presumably the other two changes you want is to transliterate ච and ඡ as 'ch' and 'chh' rather than 'c' and 'ch'. Again, I don't like this notation, but it could be accommodated within the same module.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough people involved in the discussion to establish a new consensus. --RichardW57 (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * you finally give me an acceptable comment. The ISO 15919 did this because they were the same letters. The problem is even they are same letters, the pronounce is different. I am not a expert about languages and history, I think you are talking about the "old Sinhala" character system; I don't know much about them. the old characters were converted to the current sinhala system. that's why cannot render in new computers. those characters are already dead; there are new characters for them. as to this current character system the old:  and current:  are the same thing. no one use that old system these days. I think these letters were died before I born, schools didn't even talk about them. I didn't mistake about the, you can see the conversion in මහා මංගල සුත්‍රය. I never heard or see any Sanskrit before and I think that "Chandrabindu" isn't one of "old sinhala". you also right about the ච and ඡ; I want to change them too and I still see this as a problem that need to be fixed. but as I said before, I don't care anymore. I'm just a normal person, I think someone who have higher rights, should take a look about this problem; but I wonder how would this language messed up this much if someone did ever looked about this. Thank you very much for your support. --IC9999 (talk) 01:11, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a free-of-charge font, LKLUG_T, that can render touching letters on modern computers (Windows 10, iOS, HarfBuzz). The BJT was published in 2006, and uses touching letters. Your statement, "The problem is even they are same letters, the pronounce is different." makes no sense.  The pronunciation of anusvara depends on the region and the language. --RichardW57 (talk) 01:59, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought that they assumed the anusvara of sinhala should be ṁ (a "m" sound) because of other languages. This is so wrong but I don't care about this anymore. these transliterations systems have so many problems. for example: when I studied the Japanese in English, I pronounce the た as "ta" because that how it shows everywhere and the "ta" will be ටා in Sinhalese. but I accidentally saw that this is wrong and た should be තා. the ටා and තා is completely different in Sinhalese. I felt so dumb to do such a mistake. you could think I am complaining about another language too; this is not my main language so I don't care about it. but when I saw this mistake in my main language I wanted to fix this. and here I am now, unable to do so. my point is "た" = "ta" and "ta" = "ටා" but "た" is "තා". as same as one of anusvara is "ṁ" so they assumed sinhala also the same pronounce. anyway... Hope you understand that I don't care about this problem anymore since this isn't gonna fix. so we both (specially me) don't have to waste our time in here arguing these problems. I am so sorry for wasting your valuable time and thank you very much for your help. --IC9999 (talk) 03:07, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There is some merit in establishing what you want in case enough editors of Sinhala entries show up at this discussion. The three changes you've mentioned so far could be accommodated in a common module with Pali and Sanskrit.  (I'm not sure whether to allow for the possibility of ච්හ occurring.  I did wonder whether you would suggest that ට (IAST ṭ) and ත (IAST t) should be transliterated as 't' and 'th' rather than 'ṭ' and 't'.  It does depend on what you do with ථ (IAST th); various sources leave me confused as to whether a pronunciation guide should treat it differently to ත.  Also, a lot of the pronunciation issues would be solved if Sinhalese entries also showed pronunciation.  It seems that the distinction between  and  needs to be shown somehow.  It seems that  planned to show this distinction, but he seems to have been around for only a few days. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:40, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * we use "thank" as "තෑන්ක්ස්", "Thailand" as "තායිලන්ඩ්" but "tank" is "ටෑන්ක්" and "tower" is "ටවර්" (Japanese don't have ට pronounce, only ත)
 * we use "cool (kool)" as "කූල්" and "choco (choko)" as "චොකො"
 * I didn't check the every character, maybe there could be more problems. because I am 90% sure this isn't gonna fix here; so why would I waste my time. I wish I could bring some expert to fix this problem; but it would be very meaningless; and can't do anything because the country is currently on fire because of covid-19. --IC9999 (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @IC9999 Are you such an idiot? Romanization doesn't work the way you want it to work. There is a universal standard and that should be maintained at all costs. Just because you don't like 'c' or 'ṭ' that doesn't mean the world should change. They were created by linguistic experts. SenathB (talk) 03:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @SenathB,
 * even if it's the universal standard, it could have mistakes. I just only showed few mistakes as an native speaker. who knows, maybe this will be fixed in the future because universal standard also could get updates.
 * I am not a "smart" person and I do not have any qualifications to take any actions, I am just a single "idiot" native speaker. I were not "smart" as you to understand that foreign linguistic experts cannot do mistakes and they will be always right than us who know this language since we were kids.
 * please could you just not to summon a user who hasn't been active for more than a year, just because you want to say "idiot" to him.
 * I did not made any progress here, no one took any actions. no one broke your precious universal standard so why do you even bother to reply here after this long?
 * please be reasonable next time if you want to insult someone; and thank you very much for your reply sir. -- IC9999 (talk) 18:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I did not made any progress here, no one took any actions. no one broke your precious universal standard so why do you even bother to reply here after this long?
 * please be reasonable next time if you want to insult someone; and thank you very much for your reply sir. -- IC9999 (talk) 18:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Doubtful words as translations
Is there a preferred way of handling red-linked words offered as translations (t or t+) in translation sections? The method I've been using for words that look wrong but might actually be correct is to create an entry for the alleged word and raise an RfV against it. Is this overkill? If so, what should I be doing instead? For words that seem correct, the obvious response is to create the entry if I can. --RichardW57m (talk) 09:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You can use t-check for dubious translations, if that's what you mean. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This question is for words whose existence (e.g. spelling) is doubted, or, if I am disruptively minded, merely seem not to meet the CFI. I had a separate issue with translations that are SoP (such as literal 'female horse' for 'mare'), but the solution there is to enclose the parts in double square brackets.  That then provides links to the constituent parts. --RichardW57m (talk) 08:35, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It sounds to me like t-check would suit your purposes here. It flags a translation for review (putting it into a maintenance category). Andrew Sheedy (talk) 02:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That feels more like an invitation to an edit war. One's best hope of a review log is the change comments. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Tagalog "kumain ng kanin"
A course I am taking online to learn the Tagalog language (which has said a few things apparently wrong or dubious before, according to some Filipino friends) said that "kumain ng kanin", which literally means "to eat rice", also is used as an idiom, to mean "to eat a meal [in general]"; the reasoning it gave was that rice is eaten with most or all meals in the Philippines. The claim was made by in 2010. Everyone I've known from the Philippines has said this is untrue and that the phrase is not used in this way.

I wonder if Pimsleur has spread a bit of misinformation, or if there is some dialect of Tagalog which uses that phrase, and the lecturer was just told this by someone who speaks that rare dialect. Is this possible? If that were the case it would seem odd, since the lectures focus a lot on the city of Manila, which is where some of the Filipino people who doubted this were from. I see no evidence online that "kumain ng kanin" is used as an idiom from what I can gather, but this intrigues me so I had to ask. Pinging a few people who are active and speak Tagalog natively: PseudoSkull (talk) 06:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know of any Tagalog dialect that uses an idiom like that. If you tell me "kumain ng kanin", I would immediately assume you're literally eating rice. The word "kumain" is enough to express the idea of "to eat a meal in general" --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your response. It is unfortunate that Pimsleur's lecture set has given untrue information to presumably thousands of Tagalog learners in the United States. PseudoSkull (talk) 07:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they mixed it up with Chinese: in Mandarin, at least, literally means cooked rice, but  (with ) refers to eating in general, especially to having a meal. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

The label ‘dialect’
At Module:labels/data, the the label ‘dialect’ is kept separated from the label ‘dialectal’ with the following justification: ‘so e.g. "obsolete|outside|the|_|dialect|of..." displays right’. Is this really necessary? There are lots of misuses of this label, e.g., here. ·~  dictátor · mundꟾ  15:10, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

 * I don't know if I'd regard "Britain, dialect" as a misuse; it reads like an ellipsis of "in dialect". But the general question of whether to change a distinction because not everyone maintains it, or fix misuses, is a good one. I was initially going to say I'd (for my part) rather we try to fix misuses, since being able to word labels with "dialect" seemed helpful, and we already need to review entries regardless of any combination of the labels — I see things like "UK|_|dialectal" displaying "Britain dialectal" where just putting "UK|dialectal" to display "Britain, dialectal" seems more fluent, and/or people just put "label|en|dialect" with no indication of what dialects (Northern Ireland? Western Australia? Midwest US? India? help a reader out!). But searching a database dump just now I see only 40 pages that use "|_|dialect|", some of which aren't the intended type of use (like backside), and I guess someone could just say "obsolete outside Scotland", so I guess the argument for keeping it separate is weak. - -sche (discuss) 18:16, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

About FWOTD
I've added a new request in FWOTD nominations: Special:diff/64041677, but I'm not sure if I did things right. The blue check mark at the left side of words seems to have confirmed by other users, but is it ok for me to add this new word without confirmations or discussions? --Uconhe (talk) 13:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Order of descendants
Should descendants be ordered alphabetically according to language name in English or in alphabetically in order of language code? I am seeing examples of both and I don't know which to follow. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 22:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say name. The average user isn't going to know all the codes and it just looks better to have what actually appears visually to be alphabetical. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 00:24, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 😉 Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 21:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

AWB
Hello, I need AWB access so that I can quickly add the audio files I recorded with Lingua Libre here. But I couldn't find the request page. The "Request approval" link on AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage leads to Wikipedia. Can anyone help me? Thanks. ToprakM (talk) 18:58, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


text:
Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/October

wgping
In the documentation of wgping, what does the following mean:
 * If you find find a template which was not properly substituted, use subst:wgping to fix it.

When I saw {{wping| ..., I naturally assumed it had not been substituted, let alone properly. However, it now appears that that is the normal output of the substitution! --RichardW57 (talk) 15:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The positional group parameters are expanded in the substitution process, producing named parameters {{mono| |u1=A Fellow Editor|u2=Bemoeial|u3=Comfortably Paranoid|... }} . --Lambiam 15:44, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * {{re|Lambian}} How would one recognise a template that had not been properly substituted? --RichardW57 (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * By the absence of named parameters {{mono| |u1=...|u2=... }}.
 * By the warning issued when previewing a page with an unsubstituted wgping.
 * --Lambiam 05:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

lifeboat and life raft
Is there a difference between the two? 94.226.185.160 21:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See over at the Wikipedia project.  --Lambiam 15:33, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

How to create a category in the User namespace

 * I need such categories for testing.
 * ShlomoKatzav (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

 * You can create a category without creating a page in the Category namespace. Just add to one or more pages. Category:SK-test will be a red link, but if you visit it you will see these pages listed. If you need a category page for your category in the Category namespace (I can’t think immediately of a reason why you might need it) you can create it yourself; then, when you are done testing and the category is empty, request its deletion by putting created purely for testing purposes, no longer needed. ~ at the top of the category page.  --Lambiam 15:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello, Lambiam
 * Thank you for your reply,
 * it was helpful.
 * Shlomo.
 * ShlomoKatzav (talk) 07:00, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Ordre, please
Which phonological process produced the second r in < ? Was it assimilation, or is some other process at play here that can produce such sound change, even with no r present in the source word? --Lambiam 15:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It isn't assimilation, as Walter Skeat gives additional examples without a preceding r:, ,, , . It's probably denasalization of /n/ to make a more preferred consonant cluster. Compare the Gaelic change of kn- to kr-. Spanish had this change as well in the further context of -mn- (mn > mr > mbr) as in hombre, hembra, nombre.--Urszag (talk) 03:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Mixing inline and other references.
For example, has an inline reference to Childers for the gender and also a reference to the Pali Text Society dictionary for  knows what. How does one format the reference section to line them up neatly? At present we have
 * ===References===
 * / . Others use noncog or even cog, neither of which add categories. Whatever you choose, you should never use etyl: it's deprecated and people have spent a lot of time replacing it with other templates so it can be gotten rid of. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * This should be mentioned on Template:link/documentation. I did not realize m+ existed. 70.175.192.217 05:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Perfect, exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I didn't realize it existed either. For others reading, there's also the parameter  which makes the language clickable:  :  --Fytcha (talk) 11:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

About the form 御拝でーびーる
Is the 御拝でーびーる with the びー long attested anywhere? I am by no means a native speaker of Shuri Okinawan so I cannot be sure, but 国立国語研究所『沖縄語辞典』第9刷, JLect and 沖縄方言辞典 all give the form with short び. Hsjoihs (talk) 13:35, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 沖縄語の入門―たのしいウチナーグチ― by Satoshi Nishioka and Jō Nakahara only gives the form with short び. YukaSylvie (talk) 07:05, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Since all the references I could find gave it in short び, I believe the page should be moved/renamed, but I am not familiar with the correct way to do that. Hsjoihs (talk) 07:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I moved the page. Hsjoihs (talk) 17:53, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

which way to the county seat?
I'm copping out by asking, but I'm exhausted after trying to figure out how to get an orphaned page deleted over a Wikipedia. (Hmm, I gave up there, basically, and am trying the w:WP:MFD route)

So I see the sentence
 * "Carteret County, of which Beaufort is the shiretown, extends from Bogue Sound on the south to the Neuse river on the north."

in wikisource:Page:Annual report of the superintendent of Negro Affairs in North Carolina, 1864.djvu/22.

I try 'shiretown' here and it gives me _nothing_. Amazed, I Google and Websters says "county seat" under "Definition of shire town". So I come back here and there's shire town.

So how does one 'cure' search not connecting 'shiretown' with shire town? I look around at redirects and get warned off, hearing mutterings about "soft redirects".

I saw the mention of second guess and second-guess at alternative spelling of. Does that mean you create a redirect article that *isn't* a #redirect (heaven forfend!), but an actual full entry whose only function is to point you the other entry? This is ... better? Shenme (talk) 05:53, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 * It is the way it is. Possibly for no good reason other than 20 years of precedent. I don't like it and I wish these alternative spelling type entries had much less content and functioned more like disambiguation pages. DTLHS (talk) 06:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Mm-kay, I've created shiretown. Now it has a redlink to shiretowns from the template used. Should I also create that? (as, unbelievably, it is a possibility) And, if there wasn't a plural, what would be better to use than en-noun to express only the singular? Shenme (talk) 19:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Some editors routinely also create entries for the plurals of newly created count nouns, but many don’t (see e.g., and  ). For an uncountable noun, use -; see e.g. the entry .  --Lambiam 10:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Index pages removed: what other ways can I engage more organically with a specific language?
Feedback on my user experience, then a question:

I have begun studying Scottish Gaelic, and found Wiktionary to be a valuable addition to my other dictionary resources. I usually accessed the Scottish Gaelic word entries via the Scottish Gaelic index page. I'm perfectly aware I can just search for a specific word. Call me old-fashioned, but I liked the simple straightforward feel of the Index pages, both as my gateway and my path into the words. It felt to me more like the way I read paper dictionaries. I like to browse and search by hand, and observe related words and patterns as I go. Lists and alphabetic searches work well for how my brain works.

I was unaware of the history of the Index pages, and blissfully uninvolved in the wiki's management, so I was perplexed and a little shocked when the Index page vanished. No redirect, no explanation, it simply didn't exist. It took some determined digging for me to figure out that it was part of a purposeful, site-wide purge of a class of pages that were outdated and had become detrimental. That's all fine, but it would have been nice to be told why, and that newer, better structures had supplanted them. Maybe to the active contributors it was a welcome relief to have them disappear. To me as a user, it was a sudden unexplained loss of a useful resource. Never mind that it was flawed in ways I was unaware of – it was useful, and it disappeared almost without a trace.

With that off my chest, my question: What are the pages and features that have supplanted the Index page, and where can I find and learn about them?

 * I did not know we had such index pages, but perhaps Category:Scottish Gaelic lemmas will serve the intended purpose for you. --Lambiam 10:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, time machines do exist. You may want to bookmark this link. Also, the page may be a bit outdated (It is from Christmas eve eve last year). ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 11:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion, but it was apparently outdated well before the snapshot. I'm not going to wed myself to a dead resource. To be clear, I was put out by the manner of its going, not by the fact that it left. Now that I understand the reasons I'm content to move on. Josepheh (talk) 18:07, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll check that out. Josepheh (talk) 18:07, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

 * I see. The decision to get rid of the Index was taken at Votes/2021-07/Deleting the Index. Actually, it has not been deleted but moved to Appendix:Index/Scottish Gaelic. However, because the navigation bar template has been left unchanged, navigation does not work, making this kind of useless – although you can navigate by modifying the address in the address bar directly, such as by changing https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Index/Scottish_Gaelic  to   https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Index/Scottish_Gaelic /a.  --Lambiam 22:47, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

How are reconstructions made?
Rookie question: People make reconstructions for specific words to determine the origin of one known word. I have always wondered, how do they do that? Are they sourced from somewhere, or are they made by the people who made the article themselves?

In the latter case, *blushes* can I make those reconstructions myself? Is there some set method to do that? The thought of reconstructing dead(ish) languages excites me. ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 11:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I you have the understanding of what our notations stand for then you probably can do them yourself. I see you probably want Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian. Although this is somewhat unnecessary as there are published books on Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian reconstruction, still you sometimes have to decide whether you take this or that form as the page name, or how you understand the semantics, so the answer is often that editors use multiple sources and get their Wiktionary story by combination. Indo-European on the other hand you should avoid if you aren’t an absolute wisenheimer in the field, because if you don’t use enough sources you will make errors and if you cling to some sources you will also make errors. It really depends on how far away in the past the language you reconstruct is, or how many difficulties are involved in the family in general, and on whether you have good material access. Sometimes we are also explicit in our references or further readings sections that the sources given put it a bit differently. Fay Freak (talk) 12:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Symbols for appendices
Hi. Where do I go to associate Commons images with the Unicode points in the Unicode appendices? E.g. at Appendix:Unicode/Miscellaneous Symbols and Arrows, a lot are blank, and a few of those have articles. Thanks. kwami (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Subpages of Module:Unicode data. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you be more specific? I don't see a subpage for images, and the subpages for the characters don't appear to contain this information. kwami (talk) 06:38, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See (click “images” in the table). J3133 (talk) 06:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, I was off by a zero in the index. Thanks. kwami (talk) 06:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

How to reflect compound words (e.g., "treechanger", "tree-changer", "tree changer")
Reading a newspaper article today, I encountered the Australian expression "tree changer". Wiktionary gives me treechanger. I have just added the quotation but I may have done so incorrectly since the source uses "tree changer", not "treechanger". Should I have reflected that in some other way? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What you did was correct. The general practice is to put quotations for any form of a word in the entry for the main form. If an individual form of the word can be cited, an alternative form entry can be created for it, including quotes that specifically use that form. So if you found three independent uses of "tree changer" you could create an entry at and add the quote you found to that page, in addition to keeping it at . Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Help with new category Category:de:Swiss_politics
I have never before created a category so I'm sorry if I've caused a bit of a mess. I wanted to create Category:de:Swiss_politics analogously to Category:de:German_politics. For the purpose of that, I've made this edit which was just a copy-paste of the corresponding German part. Entries are added into the German category solely by virtue of the label which doesn't happen for  though: FDP

Can somebody help me with this category please? Fytcha (talk) 09:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with the category, which you can always add manually. Labels are a completely different matter, governed by different modules. I've now copied the "German politics" item to make a new "Swiss politics" one . Chuck Entz (talk) 12:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, the category is slowly filling up now. When exactly is that module triggered? No edits have been made to the article GPS since your changes but it is listed in the category nevertheless, unlike e.g. SVP. Fytcha (talk) 13:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a job queue that automatically propagates the changes that are directly transcluded in the entries, but it does this for all transclusions for all the Wikimedia projects and it's anybody's guess as to how it prioritizes things. Otherwise it happens when an entry is edited. You can force the update by doing a null edit to the entry: click "Edit", then "Publish changes" without changing anything. In cases where a template transcludes another template, it's a good idea to do a null edit on the second template. I'm not entirely clear on the details in the latter case, but I've seen a number of cases where it was necessary. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help, I understand it better now. Fytcha (talk) 14:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

sanaol / sana ol in Tagalog
What does this informal word/phrase actually mean? I get a lot of very different definitions online, so I can't discern a meaning. The only thing I know is it's something said in the context of romance? Can you create the entry? PseudoSkull (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, to give you some background, it's a super new slang, I think it just started around 2018, and it's an exclamation said to react to someone who had something desirable happen to them. "Sanaol" or "sana all" literally means "wishing everyone (has that too)", something like that, but it's implying that you don't have that desirable thing, so by wishing everyone have it, you're implying something like "I wish I had that too". As for inclusion in Wiktionary, it's super new, and I'm not sure which spelling to use (though I'm inclined to use "sanaol" since it corresponds more to Tagalog orthography), so just not sure whether we can include it now. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The tiny bit of searching I just did indicates that unfortunately sanaol does not seem to fit the CFI attestation standards. But thanks for filling me in, anyway. Hopefully soon it will go into the discourse enough that a few books will mention it. PseudoSkull (talk) 14:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Editing's problem
When I try to contribute on the English pages about Esperanto, ancient Greek or a proto-language, I receive a message "A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: PdL-ja".

It's a big system error, because these pages don't concern the Japanese language. Could you all fix it please?

Thank you very much for your eventual reply. 2A01:CB05:8B96:E000:D4FC:CAD8:447A:3903 13:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

What are the Rhyme pages for?
There's both Rhymes:German/ax and Category:Rhymes:German/ax. The latter is generated automatically by templates in articles, so what is the use of the former? If there's no good reason for it, we should maybe get rid of it. Fytcha (talk) 21:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The Rhymes: namespace is good because it allows commentary that the categories don't, such as "In accent X, words ending in {whatever} are also rhymes for the words on this page" or "This pronunciation is a rhyme only for certain pronunciations". Also, sometimes Wikipedia articles on surnames are added to the Rhymes: pages when there is no corresponding Wiktionary entry, which isn't possible with the categories. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:36, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess it isn't possible to add a qualifier to an entry in a category, i.e. using something like such that this qualifier then appears in Category:Rhymes:German/ɪk, right?
 * As to the surnames, we could simply create these articles using a bot, no? Fytcha (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

 * To turn the question around, what exactly is the benefit of having the category when the Rhymes page exists and can include more information? Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Rhymes being able to include more information is a technical limitation on the part of categories, that I hope can be addressed. If we leave that aside, I'd argue that categories are both more logical as well as more maintainable:
 * The rhyming data of a word is information that is inherent to that word; as such, that data belongs inside that word's article, not on an unrelated site.
 * Adding new rhymes by adding from data that is already available in the article is much easier and less error prone than visiting a separate page, counting the syllables and adding it there.
 * In the late stages of rhyme-ification, Rhyme: pages would essentially contain a copy of every word of the language. This is a maintainability nightmare as pages are regularly moved, deleted etc. and the upkeep of Rhymes: pages would have to be heavily assisted by bots (which comes with a delay and a lot of additional traffic).
 * --Fytcha (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/November

How to link to something with – in its name?
Experiment here. There are some discussions with in their name and linking directly to them is done by appending   to the URL. I don't know how to do that with. Fytcha (talk) 16:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Special:Permalink/64515059. 70.175.192.217 16:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, appreciate the help! Fytcha (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Semantic roles, arguments and cases
What is the proper way to indicate in an entry how a verb maps its semantic roles onto its arguments (e.g. to indicate that whereas English like takes an experiencer subject, Spanish gustar takes a stimulus subject and an experiencer indirect object), what prepositions it governs, what cases it assigns and the like, in order to help readers understand how to use it (and not leave them to deduce such information from the usage examples, which might be insufficient for figuring out the full argument structure)? For example, for indicating case, German uses one kind of notation (square brackets after the labels, Icelandic  uses another (the information is inside the labels), and Hungarian  uses a third (plain brackets after the definition). I want to add such information for Macedonian, so I was wondering if there are norms or if I can come up with my own system? Going back to like and gustar, the argument structure of the latter seems to be explained in a rather lax way. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's a single prescriptive norm, just a lot of diversity and creativity as you have seen. I've recently been tending towards providing info about arguments and cases as tersely as possible in, or , with a  (and/or a Usage Note) if necessary (e.g. see recently added  and ), but I don't put my practices forward as the basis for an editorial standard! I suspect that encapsulating this contextual info in a template such as  (instead of just within plain brackets) would help webscrapers to distinguish it from the meanings themselves, but I'm not sure. It would be great to get input from others on this. (P.S. Hungarian has  but I haven't seen an equivalent of this among Slavic languages.) Voltaigne (talk) 00:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If Hungarian has, perhaps I could ask someone to code something similar for Macedonian, except that it would not be about case, since Macedonian has lost its cases except in pronouns and the vocative, but about prepositions and grammatical functions (subject, object, indirect object, completive clause, subjunctive clause etc.). However, I personally think that the best solution would be to introduce a new header, called something like "argument structure" or "subcategorization" (in reference to generative, Chomskyan syntax) and introduce such information there. Unfortunately, the community shies away from discussions about technical, grammatical topics which are not of an etymological character, so it would be pointless to bring this up in the Beer Parlour. For the time being, I think I'm going to write the information in question under Usage Notes. If a new header is ever created, the information can be moved there. Martin123xyz (talk) 09:07, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

English pages for Chinese characters: What do the dagger symbols mean at the beginning of a definition?
Take for example 耳|https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/耳 section 2.2.2, "Etymology 1", there are 7 definitions and 4 of them begin with the † character.

I haven't been able to find any key or legend to understand how to interpret what that means.

Please help me out with this? Thanks!
 * They are obsolete senses. The template used to offer title text, but that seems to be broken now. There is an open discussion about deleting this template. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

 * What does "‡" mean? The page (Template:zh-no-solo) just says it needs documentation. Does it mean "super-obsolete" or something?
 * Btw, I was finally able to figure out what '⁜' meant from your comment, which is what I was actually trying to find out. So thanks! - I was able to figure out the single-dagger thing from googling after looking up the Unicode character name. It's surprisingly difficult to look up "dictionary symbols" in google, lmao. 2600:1700:750:F010:4DB2:6AC6:1071:48B4 02:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You can see the title text if you edit—i.e., view the source of—the templates.
 * (†): “Obsolete sense in Modern Standard Chinese—may be preserved in fossilised compounds and expressions or other varieties of Chinese.”
 * (‡): “This is per the record found in one or more historical dictionaries. It does not necessarily have citations.”
 * (⁜): “Obsolete sense as a 'stand-alone character' in modern standard Chinese. May be preserved in compounds and idiomatic expressions.”
 * J3133 (talk) 10:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Why is Elefanten in Category:IPA_pronunciations_with_invalid_IPA_characters?
When I edit the article and press "Show preview" then there's no errors being displayed (which is how this template usually signifies which characters are wrong). Fytcha (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like it was the IPA in – Jberkel 15:21, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Maybe we should make it such that also displays errors in preview mode like . Fytcha (talk) 15:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

New category
Hi

I want to create a category for all types of tapes (electrical tape,), but I don't know i which categories to include it. Can anybody help me? --Vivaelcelta (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The tricky part is deciding where it goes in the category tree- what is it a subcategory of? An anthropolgist once said that a chimpanzee by itself (i.e. without a social context) is "half a chimpanzee". In the same way, a category without a place in the larger category hierarchy is half a category.
 * Also, how many entries are likely to belong to this new category? A Wikimedia category is a navigational device: it should be used to find other entries that have something in common. If you have only one or two entries, you might as well use "See also" and link to them directly.
 * If you can answer those two questions, it will be easy to create the category. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you want to include? Any thin strip of material, like a ribbon or bandage (including things as diverse as e.g., magnetic tape, police tape, measuring tape)? Or specifically adhesive tapes? 70.175.192.217 00:09, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * . Sorry. I want to include: adhesive tape, sellotape, sticky tape, Scotch tape, insulating tape, electrical tape, duck tape, surgical tape, medical tape, masking tape, double-sided tape and more. I have to think about it and look for it.
 * Yes. The problem is deciding where is goes in the category tree xd. This is my question. --Vivaelcelta (talk) 01:44, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:Tools seems appropriate. It contains subcategories such as "Fasteners" (which includes paperclip, staple) and "Stationery". Adhesive tapes could definitely be listed alongside such items.
 * I could also see an argument for putting it in Category:Materials, but I'm not sure. "Adhesives" (which would include glue and such) are definitely a material, but adhesive tape might be regarded as a combination of adhesive material and a backing material rather than a material in its own right. if you were to make Category:Adhesives, then "Adhesive tape" could be a subcategory of that though. 70.175.192.217 03:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia places under . On the other hand we have things under Category:Materials like Category:Textiles, which are structurally complex, and Category:Building materials which includes reinforced concrete, also structurally complex. I think either would work.
 * For me, though, I have trouble thinking of things you make something out of as tools. I think of a tool as something you use for manipulating such things without it becoming a part of what you're making. I realize this isn't based on any technical criteria, but it may be that others will look for this under Category:Materials for similar intuitive reasons. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know what you mean about "tools" seeming slightly off, although I do think under a broad definition it fits (nail is under tools, and it is also something that becomes part of what you're making). Maybe "materials" is better for that reason, especially if complex materials are fine. Or both. 70.175.192.217 04:31, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Someone went ahead and created the category without setting it up in the module, so I did that to get rid of the error. We can always change the parent category if we want to (right now it's "materials"). Chuck Entz (talk) 08:17, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks to everyone. --Vivaelcelta (talk) 18:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Need instructions as a beginner
Hello! I am Meghmollar2017. I generally contribute to Wikipedia. But, nowadays, I find that contributing to wiktionary would be great for me too as I have enough resources, especially for Bengali language. So, I am very eager to start contributing to wiktionary in English and Bengali language edition (bn.wiktionary.org). But before starting, I want some instructions from veteran wikimedians on what I can start with or what I can do as a task. Besides, I have a few questions regarding Wiktionary: I have so many questions moving around, but, I think, these are enough for now (though I have already asked a lot lot lot of questions). Thank you for your patience to read my message. Regards Meghmollar2017 (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Should I enter the same meaning word-by-word as it is in a reference dictionary or I change a bit as we do in Wikipedia for copyright issue? How do I cite sources? Is there any difference in citation policies in Wikipedia and Wiktionary?
 * Can you suggest any standard entry that I can follow while editing?
 * How do I categorise in Wiktionary?
 * How to link to a wiktionary entry with other project entries? Suppose, I have created a new entry in bnwiktionary namely "জল" (water); and there is already an entry named "পানি" (water) which is again synonymous to the previous one. And, again, there is an entry named "water" for English language. Now, which entry should be linked with “Water” in Wikidata: "জল", "পানি" or "water"? Should I create new entries on Wikidata for the rests, too?
 * Can I create new entries for proverbs and idioms?
 * And, finally, can you suggest any Wikiproject that you think I might like?
 * I left our welcome template on your talk page, which should answer most of your technical questions. As for citations: this is a major difference between Wiktionary and Wikipedia- we're a descriptive dictionary, so usage is our source, not authoritative references (the well-documented languages, at least). See WT:CFI for details. Please avoid copyright violation. While one can't copyright facts or ideas, their expression is copyrightable, and their compilation as a whole as well. While it's not likely that we would face legal action over a definition here or there, it's best to avoid copying verbatim anywhere just on principle, and because individual transgressions have a way of adding up to a pattern.
 * As for categories- there are etymological and grammatical categories, which are about the terms as parts of a language, and there are topical categories, which are terms related by some extralinguistic theme. We have two types of topical categories: plain topical categories, which consist of terms related to a topic, and sets, which are terms for things that are examples of something. The etymological and grammatical categories are added mainly by templates, which should tell you that it's important to use templates, and to use the right templates. The topical categories are added by hand or via a generic category template such as topics (mostly through aliases such as C). All of these categories are defined in an extensive system of modules, as are the language codes- it takes a while to learn how to add a new master category, but adding a language-specific category for a general master category is just a matter of adding auto cat to the category page.
 * As for model entries: each language is different, and we tend to defer to the community of editors who work with a particular language for much of the specifics that aren't covered in WT:EL. Always look for an "About" page for any given language. It will be named "About X", where X is the name of the language, and it will have a shortcut consisting of "A" followed by the language code in UPPERCASE. For Bengali, that would be WT:ABN. The About page will give standards for entries in that language that have been adopted by the editors for that language.
 * I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with the above wall of text. Really, the best thing to do is look at lots of entries and see how they're organized and what templates they use. Start simple and start small, working your way up to the more complex stuff. Good luck! Chuck Entz (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , Thanks a lot for your quick response. The links from both of your messages helped a lot to understand. But I am still unclear about inter-wikilinking. Can you please clarify this part, too? Thank you again. Meghmollar2017 (talk) 17:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Unicode
What do we do if a word uses a character or script not in Unicode (Such as blisssymbols)?

 * Do you have an example of such a word that meets our inclusion requirements? (They tend to exclude constructed languages.) The only possible one that comes to mind for me is the character. Equinox ◑ 10:14, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Isn’t biangbiang noodles is Unicode now? Anyways Appendix only conlangs are a thing and blisssymbols has no romanization (or at lest not one I could find) or Under Conlang Unicode Codes (or what ever its called). Also I don’t think Mayan is in Unicode but idk anything about that. --67.81.132.165 22:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

 * We have Category:Terms containing unencoded characters; e.g., the page for the tally symbol representing five was Unsupported titles/Five-bar gate tally before it was in Unicode (𝍸). J3133 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

 * But how do we diside what it should be? --67.81.132.165 22:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Wildcard search
I'm trying to get a list of Finnish words that end in tuttaa, like the word totuttaa. I tried searching with *tuttaa, but that returns zero results. I also tried intitle:tuttaa but that didn't work either. What should I be doing differently? ~ heyzeuss 17:02, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * DTLHS (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that works! Strange that it returns zero results with an asterisk wildcard. Do the slashes make a regex pattern? ~ heyzeuss 17:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Coming in a bit late, but you can also make a list with Auto-Wiki Browser and then filter it in the editor or with a text editor. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Broken Korean word page
오르다 displays "Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'gsub' (string expected, got table)"

This seems not to be a memory error. Just a report, I have no clue how to fix this.

Kotlopou (talk) 11:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

 * No error on my end. Fytcha (talk) 12:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Last night (California time, several hours before the above report) there were about 1,700 entries in CAT:E. The entries were in multiple scripts and languages, so it had to be one of the basic modules. All of the entries I checked showed no errors, and disappeared from the category after a null edit. I fell asleep before I was able to clear more than a few dozen. Apparently someone made an edit to a widely transcluded module that caused a widespread error, then it was fixed before I found out about it. This happens from time to time, and how long it takes to clear up depends on how full the job queue is.
 * With similar situations in the past, I've noticed that sometimes a few entries still display the error on the page, but it goes away with a null edit. In such cases, I suspect it's a matter of the bad edit taking a while to propagate to all the entries and the timing being just right so that it hits at about the same time as the page is loaded. It's a bit of a fluke, but with thousands of pages affected and thousands of people viewing pages, the odds are good for it to happen. My knowledge of systems isn't that advanced, but my impression is that the interaction between the edits, the job queue, and the entries over all the Wikimedia sites is too complex for anyone to predict how it will play out.
 * Short answer: both you and the OP were right. The error was really there, but it cleared by itself before you got to it. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Entry missing from drop-down menu
I'm really new to this and don't know what I'm doing... That said, I was looking up the word, "ve" in Wiktionary, and it did not show up in the drop-down list of available entries to look up. (Now, I presume that if the entry isn't listed then no information is available except for the option of "Search for pages containing...") But then by looking around on Wiktionary enough, I discovered that there is quite a lot of information available on "ve" except that it doesn't show up in the drop-down menu. I can type, "v" alone, and that shows up. I type, "ve", and that is missing. Then I type, "vex" (for example), and that shows up as expected. So I wonder what is going wrong with, "ve" for it not to show up at all in the drop-down menu OR is that even an issue?

Be that as it may, a few weeks ago I was looking up stuff on Wiktionary and it asked for donations. I really can't afford that. But I have you know that if I come into any real money, I intend to donate generously.

Ĉaŭ, Koh
 * Koh, how the search feature functions is actually not something that we work on locally at this wiki but it's done by developers. You can learn more about the software at MediaWiki's own wiki and if you find problems, you can post them to (if you decide to make an account). —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Rollbacks without being rollbacker?
How is this user (User:Hasley) being able to make rollbacks (Special:Contributions/Hasley with their edits tagged as "Rollback" and the reverted edits as "Reverted") despite having no rights (Special:UserRights/Hasley)? Fytcha (talk) 17:23, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I knew it had to be linked to their involvement in the Wikimedia community in general. So, according to Special:GlobalUserRights/Hasley, they have the rights "global-rollbacker, global-sysop to global-rollbacker, global-sysop, abusefilter-helper". PseudoSkull (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I wasn't aware that this is possible (not sure if it is a good idea though). Fytcha (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at a few of the edits themselves. Do you object to the content of any of the rollbacks? Note that user scripts can easily "do" rollbacking, so the user rights is really a formality and smooths over the process of someone rolling back. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify any potential confusion, I merely revert vandalism that shows up on my CVN queue occasionally. If you consider this as problematic, I can simply opt-out Wiktionary from my watchlist. Please let me know. Best, —Hasley (talk) 18:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Please don't opt out; see my response below. --Fytcha (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I have absolutely no objections to this particular user and their edits. I also don't see any issues with the global-rollbacker rights in general. I am however a bit reserved when it comes to the global-sysop rights: 1. Local sysops are strictly more qualified as executives within their local communities than global sysops and 2. local sysops have been elected by the will of the local community. --Fytcha (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification, Fytcha. As for the second part of your response, global sysops cannot use their tools on this project, as enwiktionary is opted-out of the GS wiki list. —Hasley (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I see, I don't have any objection anymore. Thank you and everybody else for patiently explaining. Fytcha (talk) 19:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking: I think we all learned something today. The true rollbacks were the friends we made along the way. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:07, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is actually a difference: a true rollback marks the reverted edit as patrolled, so it drops off the radar for admins. A script will leave it unpatrolled. We have some truly incredible non-rollbacker patrollers like and now  who catch bad edits very quickly and undo the immediate damage, but they can't do things like blocking or hiding revisions. The admins who come after them can then go through all those edits in Recent Changes and do the necessary admin stuff to finish things off. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:20, 30 November 2021 (UTC)


text:
拍搶

Verb

 * 1)  to rob; to mug

title: 拍搶


text:
carne al fuoco

Etymology
lit. 'meat at the fire'.

Noun

 * 1)  irons in the fire

Usage notes

 * Typically preceded by, , and similar.

title: carne al fuoco


text: 拍抢

title: 拍抢


text:
ಗೃಹ

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1)  a house

title: ಗೃಹ


text:
al di sotto di

Preposition

 * 1) beneath

title: al di sotto di


text: banrol

title: banrol


text:
berita acara

Etymology
Compound of, , from.

title: berita acara


text: míngrìhuánghuā

title: míngrìhuánghuā


text:
기입하다

Etymology
.

Verb

 * 1)  to fill in; to fill out (e.g. a form)

title: 기입하다


text:
기입

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) record; entry
 * 2) filling out (a form)

title: 기입


text:
Talk:彊搶

Attestation
Hi, do you have attestations of the compound being written in 彊搶? RcAlex36 (talk) 05:33, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, no attestations of the entire phrase as such, but 彊 is another way to write 強, which is done when writing calligraphy. The dog2 (talk) 05:36, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if this merits inclusion on Wiktionary. In calligraphy there are often numerous variant forms of the same character which we do not include on Wiktionary. Besides, 彊 is recognized as the 異體字 of 強, so it is not the standard traditional form., what do you think? RcAlex36 (talk) 05:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Let's send this to RFV if it's an issue of attestation. The dog2, I think you might want to reread WT:CFI. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

RFV discussion: January–May 2021
Barely any good hits on Google with. Also see Talk:彊搶. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've only found one citation so far, which I've added to Citations:彊搶. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

 * RFV failed. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 17:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:彊搶


text:
索債

Verb

 * 1) to demand the payment of one's debt; to demand repayment

title: 索債


text: 索债

title: 索债


text:
ikhtisar

Etymology
From.

title: ikhtisar


text:
ringkasan

Etymology
.

title: ringkasan


text:
掏井

Verb

 * 1)  to remove dirt and debris from a well to make it clean

title: 掏井


text:
ijmal

Etymology
From.

title: ijmal


text:
掏湯

Verb

 * 1)  to ladle soup into a rice bowl to soak the rice

title: 掏湯


text: 掏汤

title: 掏汤


text:
El Tuque

Translations

 * Spanish: El Tuque

title: El Tuque


text:
deviasi

Etymology
,, from , from.

Noun

 * 1) the act of deviating; wandering off the correct or true path or road; a departure from the correct way of acting.
 * 2) the state or result of having deviated; a transgression; an act of sin; an error; an offense.
 * 3)  for interval variables and ratio variables, a measure of difference between the observed value and the mean.
 * : Actions or behaviors that violate formal and informal cultural norms such as laws and customs.
 * 1)  for interval variables and ratio variables, a measure of difference between the observed value and the mean.
 * : Actions or behaviors that violate formal and informal cultural norms such as laws and customs.
 * : Actions or behaviors that violate formal and informal cultural norms such as laws and customs.
 * : Actions or behaviors that violate formal and informal cultural norms such as laws and customs.

title: deviasi


text: भिषक्

title: भिषक्


text:
淘米水

Noun

 * 1)  water in which rice has been washed as hog wash

title: 淘米水


text: Rhymes:Esperanto/awdo

title: Rhymes:Esperanto/awdo


text:
La Tuque

Translations

 * French:

title: La Tuque


text: Category:Esperanto rhymes/aw-

title: Category:Esperanto rhymes/aw-


text: Tuque

title: Tuque


text:
斗㬹

Noun

 * 1)  elbow

title: 斗㬹


text:
ən-imun

Noun

 * 1) mouth
 * 2) lips

title: ən-imun


text:
倒拐子

Noun

 * 1)  elbow

title: 倒拐子


text:
手倒拐

Noun

 * 1)  elbow

title: 手倒拐


text:
倒拐

Verb

 * 1)  to make a turn; to turn (a corner); to get around (a bend)

title: 倒拐


text: Category:eo:Larks

title: Category:eo:Larks


text:
reñ

Etymology
From, from. Cognate with 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬.

Noun

 * 1) horn
 * 2) tusk

title: reñ


text:
tufalaŭdo

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) crested lark

title: tufalaŭdo


text:
刀刀兒客

Noun

 * 1)  bandit; brigand; outlaw

title: 刀刀兒客


text: 刀刀儿客

title: 刀刀儿客


text:
刀刀兒

Noun

 * 1)  pocketknife; penknife

title: 刀刀兒


text:
縱論

Verb

 * 1) to widely discuss

title: 縱論


text: tufalaŭdon

title: tufalaŭdon


text: 刀刀儿

title: 刀刀儿


text: tufalaŭdoj

title: tufalaŭdoj


text: 纵论

title: 纵论


text:
ᏆᎾᏓᏲᎭ

Noun

 * 1) cobra

title: ᏆᎾᏓᏲᎭ


text: tufalaŭdojn

title: tufalaŭdojn


text: Category:ml:Even-toed ungulates

title: Category:ml:Even-toed ungulates


text:
刀刀

Noun

 * 1)  pocketknife; penknife

title: 刀刀


text:
ᏄᎦᎸ

Noun

 * 1) sawbriar, catbriar (Smilax glauca)

title: ᏄᎦᎸ


text: Category:ml:Insects

title: Category:ml:Insects


text: Category:ml:Arthropods

title: Category:ml:Arthropods


text:
sniooh

Etymology
From an infixed form of, from. Cognate with 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 suʔ.

Noun

 * 1) hair

title: sniooh


text:
不惟

Etymology
Doublet of.

Conjunction

 * 1)  not only

title: 不惟


text: Category:Oko-Eni-Osayen language

title: Category:Oko-Eni-Osayen language


text:
erniaq

Etymology
Possibly related to "son", from. Compare and.

Noun

 * 1) fry (young fish); brood

title: erniaq


text:
要圖

Noun

 * 1)  important plot; important plan

title: 要圖


text: 要图

title: 要图


text:
ᎦᏅᏆᎶᏍᏗ

Noun

 * 1) hammer

title: ᎦᏅᏆᎶᏍᏗ


text:
刀背脊

Noun

 * 1)  back of a knife blade

title: 刀背脊